after they were indued with the power of the holy Ghost from aboue was assured truth void of all error the same spirit ruling their tongues that guided their pens But this priuilege to teach and write trueth without error was annexed to Peters person not conueied along to his successors no more thā their writings are canonicall because his were Phi. This was not the priuilege of S. Peters person but of his office that he should not faile in faith The. If you ment that other Apostles which were of the same office with him were to haue the same priuilege as well as he you saide right for the churches of Christ in all places where Peter neuer preached needed the same assurance of faith the same direction vnto trueth that the churches did which were planted by Peter But you will haue this priuilege remaine to some successor after Peters death and for that you shew vs no authority besides your owne which God knoweth is very simple Phi. Al the fathers applie this priuilege of not failing in faith to the Romane church Peters successours in the same Theo. You belie all the Fathers with one breath but that you haue a priuilege to say what you list in other men this were an arrogant an impudent lie What fathers I praie you applie this promise of not failing in faith to the Romane Church You say al for discharge of your credit let vs heare some Phi. S. Barnard writing to Pope Innocentius saith To what other See was it euer said I haue praied for thee Peter that thy faith do not faile Theo. Could you find no father for the space of 1100. yeres that euer applied these wordes to the church of Rome before Bernard To be plaine with you masters Bernard is too yōg to cary the name of antiquitie too single to haue the credit of al the fathers But with thē that haue no mo one must go for all Indeed all the fathers that euer applied this priuilege to the church of Rome are poore Bernard more than a 1000. yeres after Christ in the midst of corruption but in this case wee require some grauer and elder father than Bernard Phi. To the which saith S. Cyprian infidelity or false saith can not come Theo. To which what church or successors Phi. Which you wil. And where you require fathers that the church of Rome can not er Cypriās words be very plaine Post ista nauigare audent ad Petri cathedram atque ecclesiam Principalem vnde vmtas Sacerdotalis exorta est a schismaticis profanis literas ferre nec cogitare eos esse Romanos quorū fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est ad quos persidia habere non possit accessum After al this they dare saile cary letters frō schismatiks profane persons to the chaire of Peter the principal church whence priestly vnity had her beginning do not remēber the Romanes to be those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom infidelity cā not come Theo. You do wel to repeate the place at large it wil ease me of some paines What conclude you of these words Phi. That the Bishop of Rome can not er Theo. How fet you that about Phi. To Peters chaire infidelitie can not come Theo. Those be not Cypriās words Phi. To the Romanes he saith infidelity cā not come Theo. He addeth somwhat more whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. All the better For if S. Paul praised their faith it was the truer Theo. But whose faith did Paul praise the Bishops or the peoples Phi. Why aske you that Theo. Because that directeth the sense of Cyprians words Phi. Whose say you Theo. I aske you you returne it to me Well then let S. Paul speake for vs both I thanke my God through Iesus Christ for you all because your faith is renoumed throughout the whole world You al containeth as well the people that receiued the faith as the Preachers that taught it and of the twaine rather the people than the Preachers because the preaching of the faith was as true elsewhere as in Rome but either the zeale deuotion of the people in receiuing the faith was greater at Rome than elsewhere as S. Hierom noteth that S. Paul commendeth or else because their citie was imperiall the fame of their receiuing the gospel was bruted farther abroad thā of other smaler cities did incourage others to go forward with the more boldnes for the which Paul thāketh God Take which you wil the peoples faith is it that S. Paul praiseth as his own words witnesse To you all that are at Rome I thanke my God for you all because your faith is made manifest to al the world Now if Cyprian say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes whose saith was praised by the Apostles mouth then can none of the people of Rome erre because the faith of them all was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. The church of Rome can not erre nor the people neither so long as they follow the faith of that church Theo. But if you build this on Cyprians words you must say that the church of Rome can not erre so long as shee followeth the people of Rome for their faith was praised by the Apostle And therefore choose whether you will impart this priuiledge to euery Citizen and Artisant in Rome that they can not erre as well as to the Pope that hee can not erre or else seeke for an other meaning of Cyprians saying Phi. What other meaning should we seeke for be not the wordes plaine enough Theo. You neither translate them right nor applie them right For Cyprian doth not discourse in that epistle whether the Romanes them-selues may fall from the faith but whether wicked persons reiected in other places from the communion should haue any refuge or find any fauour at Rome that he largely dissuadeth bringing this amongst others for a reason that where the Apostle praised the people of Rome in his time for their zealous imbracing the faith of Christ and incouraging others to doe the like it would nowe bee a great shame if wicked disturbers of the faith should bee succoured by them which he thought good to expresse in these words Neither doe they remember the Romanes to bee those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom wickednes or vnfaithfulnesse may not haue accesse Phi. Out vpon you what a gloze haue you brought vs here Theo. None but such as the whole Epistle shal iustifie Phi. You translate non possit may not Theo. A foule ouersight I assure you as though the very children in Grammer scholes did not learne that posse doth signifie to may or can or your law it selfe did not allow vs that exposition when it saith Id dicimur posse quod de iure possumus we can
any age euer saide the contrarie Theo. Name any catholike Diuine for a thowsand yeares after Christ that euer saide so In deede some popish prelats and writers of late yeares finding that a compendious waie to strengthen the Popes kingdom to make a speedy dispatch of such as should molest them haue not by diuinitie but by conspiracie concluded that Princes may be deposed resisted euen by their owne subiects contrary to the law of God the doctrine of the Apostles and the perpetuall patience of Christs church Phi. I wil set you downe some catholike writers about this matter albeit but fewe for breuity sake yet of such excellent credit as shal be able to instruct and satisfie any reasonable conscience in this case as also to be our brethrens defence against all those that charge them so deadly with these treasonable propositions Theo. The simplest christian that is except you take a rebellious hart for a reasonable conscience wil looke for some better authority to saue himselfe from damnatiō which God threatneth to all that resist powers than your own schoolmen companions linked in the same faction with you liuing not long before you And this seely defence of your brethren by the corrupt verdict of your confederates is rather a discredit to your whole cause than a clearing of them from traiterous deuises or as you speake from treasonable propositions Phi. Thomas Aquin that glorious Saint Clerke whose only sentence weigheth more thā al the Protestāts wits words in the world saith thus Postquā Princeps est denūciatus apostata omnes inferiores subditi absoluūtur a praestito turamēto obedientia illi debita that is to say after a Prince is once denounced to bee an Apostata all his inferiours subiects are assoiled of their oth made vnto him and of their obedience vnto him This case is plainely resolued vpon by the greatest of all the schoole Doctors and therefore can be no reasonable assertion or opinion Theo. We are now neither to sift your saints nor examine your clerks much lesse to debate whether the resolution of a popish Monk drown the wits pains of them al that God hath since called to the knowledge of his truth your passing pride I leaue to the iudgmēt of the wise The credit of Thomas is not so excellēt as you make it nor his saintship so glorious He wrot more thā 1200. yeres after Christ was both ouerwhelmed with the corruption of his time wholy wedded to the See of Rome Scripture or father he bringeth none but barely standeth on the example of Gregory the 7. who first practised this wicked presumption against Henry the 4. a 1000. yeares after Christ this is a simple securitie for subiects to resist the sword which God hath autorized the church of Christ for a 1000. yeares obeyed to heare Thomas Aquin a late Summist in y◠midst of blindnes error affirme they may pretēd no better author than Hildebrād a furious seditious monster as his owne Cardinales companions report of him You were best bring some other proofe they must else be very large consciences that will be satisfied with such censures Phi. The famous professor of our time Francis Toledo writeth farther vpō the words of S. Thomas Nota saith he quod eadem est ratio de excommunicato quia cū primū quis est denunciat us excōmunicatus omnes subdits absoluuntur ab eius obedientia Note that albeit S. Thomas name only an apostata yet the reason is al one in the Princes case that is excommunicated For as soone as one is denounced or declared an excōmunicate al his subiects be discharged of their obediēce For though the crime of a Prince be notorious yet before declaration thereof made by the church the vassals are not assoiled frō obedience as Caietanus wel holdeth which declaration being made by the church they are not only discharged of their loialtie but are bound not to obey him any more except it be for feare of their liues or losse of their temporal goods as it was in England in the time of Henry the 8. Thus doth this notable schoolemā write neither do we know any Catholike diuine of any age to say the contrarie Theo. Cal you these satisfactiōs for reasonable cōsciences in purgatiō of your selues that you do not cōspire with Popes against Princes to bring men aliue at this day that be either hired or bewitched as you are to take part with Antichrist against God his truth think you their surly conclusions to be sufficiēt instructions for all mens consciences Shall Ambrose Austen others looke on Caietane Toledo such like sworne chaplaines to the Pope our prosessed enemies to bee iudges in this cause What else is this but aske my fellow whether I be a thiefe And yet Thomas Aquinas had this moderation that Princes should not loose their Dominion for heresie or any other crime but only for Apostasie which is a generall final renouncing of Christs name to become an heathē or a Turk Toledo with lesse learning more vnshamefastnes telleth vs vpon his credit Eadem est ratio de excommunicato The same reason holdeth in any Prince whom the Pope list to excommunicate for what cause soeuer Be not these dowtie demonstrations in so weighty questions Phi. We bring them not as our chiefe groundes in this cause but onely to shewe that others haue beene of the same iudgement with vs. Theo. You meane that your fellowes of late dayes haue beene as dutifull to their Princes as you are now to ours We aske not what companie but what authoritie you haue to resist and depose the powers which God hath appointed to bee serued and honoured Let Aquinas Caietane and Toledo go You may not displace them whom God hath exalted annointed and set to be obeyed without higher and better warrant than fiue thowsand Thomases tenne Thowsande Caietanes and twentie thowsande Toledoes can giue you Phi. Thowsandes we could bring you if that would content you namely The famous generall Councell of Laterane celebrated aboue 300. yeares since wherein there were Patriarkes and Archbishops 70. Bishops 412. and other Prelates 800. in all of the most chosen learned men of all Nations 1282. with the Embassadours of the Romane Emperour of the king of Ierusalem of England of Fraunce of Spaine and of Cypres as also of other Christian States than which there can bee no surer iudgement vpon earth which assemblie representing the whole christian world would neuer agree vpon any assertion traiterous These thē are the words of their most renoumed Decree If any Lord temporall required and admonished by the church neglect to purge his State from hereticall filth let him bee excommunicated by the Metropolitane and Conprouinciall Bishops But if he contemne to come to order within one yeares space let relation be made to the supreme Bishop
persons excōmunicate and consequently your applying of scriptures that wee may not salute them nor keepe companie with them is a violent deprauing of these textes and refuted by the manifest practise of Christes Church And because wee bee come so farre I will adde somewhat touching the rest of your wise pretences Constantius Valens Valentinian the younger Anastasius Iustinian Heraclius Constantine the 4. and others were hereticall Princes Iulian an open Apostata and yet the Church of Christ endured serued and obeyed them not in temporall things only but in ecclesiasticall also so farre as their Lawes did not impugne the faith or corrupt good manners Phi. You inferre vpon our examples which we can auoyde when wee wil but you answere them not Theo. Our illation which you shall neuer auoyd proueth your examples to conclude for vs and not against vs. You shewe that Princes were remoued from the Sacraments which we graunt but that they were remoued from their kingdomes which we denie that you shewe not and so by your silence you confesse that to bee most true which wee affirme that hereticall and excommunicate Princes must haue their due subiection honour and tribute as they had before they fell to such impieties because they bee perils to their soules not forfeytures of their Crownes Other answere we neede not make you since this will suffice And yet if wee would examine your examples by the pole I coulde take many of them tardie A booke written in Chrysostomes name witnesseth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche excluded a Christian Emperour out of the Church for murdering a young Prince committed to him for an hostage and was martyred by the same tyrant for his constancie but this can not stand with the stories of the Church nor with your owne Author whom you alleage for the repentance and submission that you say this Emperour was after brought to by Fabian the generall sheephearde of Christendome Eusebius who wrate an hundreth yeeres before Chrysostome sayth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison vnder Decius an heathen Tyrant After Philip succeeded Decius who for hatred of Philip persecuted the Church in the which persecution Fabianus Bishoppe of Rome was martyred and Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison after the constant confession of his fayth With him agreeth Nicephorus Babylas sub Decio post confessionem fortiter obitam in vinculis discessit Babylas after hee had made a stout confession of his fayth dyed in Prison vnder Decius If hee died vnder Decius howe coulde hee bee slaine by Philippus or Numerius that were before Decius If hee deceased in Prison how can your Chrysostome say that hee was caried out of Prison to his death and slaine Can you reconcile these thinges and not giue one of your Authors the lie If that declamation were Chrysostomes hee wrate it when he came fresh from the Philosophers schooles as both the stile matter argue and before he was Bishoppe as his owne woordes declare For speaking of the place where Babylas was Bishoppe he sayth Nostri huius gregis curam gerebat he was Pastor of this our flocke and Chrysostome was Bishop of Constantinople not of Antioche Who pursued the saide Emperour by like excommunication for killing his Pastor since the Pastor was aliue after the Emperour was dead and died in prison without any violence neither can you tell neither neede wee care Of Philip Nicephorus sayth no such thing in the place which you quote hee repeateth only that which Eusebius long before reported in these words Of Philip the fame is that fauouring Christ and willing the night before Easter to ioyne with the multitude of Christians in their prayers hee was not suffered so to doe by the Bishoppe that then was vnlesse hee would first acknowledge his sinnes and keepe his place with the repentants Otherwise he could not be admitted because his sinnes were many And they say that hee gladly hearkened to the Bishop and shewed his syncere and religious mynde to God-ward by his deedes The ground of the whole in him that first wrate it is but hearesay the principall matter whether the Prince were remooued from the communion or neuer before admitted to the Lordes table very doubtfull The thing required at his handes was no more but to humble himselfe in the sight of God to whome all Princes must stoope with as great deuotion and submission as the poorest woormes that are on earth The conclusion may bee that Princes then were trayned to Godlinesse but that they were depriued of their kingdomes is a wicked and vngodly suggestion of yours Wee may with as good reason say a Frier many tymes doeth shriue the Pope Ergo a Frier may depose the Pope which I thinke your holy Father will not like of Saint Ambrose is the onely example in all antiquitie which fully proueth that a Bishoppe did prohibite a Prince to enter the Church and to bee partaker of the Lordes table which wee neither deny nor dispraise considering the cause and the manner of the fact The Prince for a tumult raysed by some of the inhabitants of Thessalonica caused his souldiers without finding or searching the doers to murder the people were they straungers or Citizens faultlesse or faultie to the number of seuen thousand After this execution at his next comming to the Church S. Ambrose stepped to the Church dore and sayd Thou seemest O Prince not to vnderstand what a monsterous slaughter of people is committed by thee neither doth rage suffer thee to weigh with thy selfe what thou hast done yet must thou know that from dust we came to dust we shal Let not therfore the brightnes of thy robes hide frō thee the weaknes of flesh that is vnder them Thy subiects are of the same metall which thou art serue the same Lord that thou doest With what eyes therefore wilt thou behold the house of this cōmon Lord with what feete wilt thou tread on his holy pauements Wilt thou reach these hāds dropping yet with the blood of innocents to receiue the most sacred bodie of the Lorde Wilt thou put that precious blood of his to thy mouth which in a rage hast spilt so much Christian blood Depart rather and heape not one sinne on an other neither refuse this bond which the Lord of all doeth ratifie in heauen It is not much and it will restoare thee the health of thy soule This strake the Christian Prince to the heart and turning about hee went home with teares and all the tyme that hee was kept out of the Church as a man in mourning hee woulde not put on his Imperiall robes but that Ambrose commaunded him to put off his kingly robes and to leaue his Imperiall throne in the Chauncel this is your venemous admixtion the storie sayth no such thing You falsely father it on S. Ambrose to make men beleeue that the Bishoppe might as well haue taken the princes scepter and sworde from
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
skirmish and arming your selues with three scriptures and seuen fathers you thinke to vanquish and ouerrunne the Princes power in causes ecclesiasticall but soft Sirs you mistake your weapons their force is not great The nation and kingdome sayth God to Sion that wil not serue thee shal perish The kingdome he sayth not the king but graunt it were directly spoken of kings what seruice that is which God requireth of kings if you doe not knowe S. Austen will tel you In this sayth he Kings serue God if their kingdomes they command that which is good and forbid that which is euill not in temporall affayres onely but in matters of religion also And againe Yee Kings serue Christ in making lawes for Christ. So that the cōmanding their people to reuerence the word and obey the will of God and the making of strait lawes to keepe men in the faith and Church of Christ that is I say the seruice which Princes owe to God and his Sion and which you deny lawful for them to medle with By the two next places of S. Paul you prone that Pastors Bishops be rulers of the Church That worde Rulers you catch hold of as if the wordes in S. Paul did not also signifie feeders and leaders which be the two signes and dueties of good shepheards and yet we neuer denied but the messengers and disposers of Gods mysteries by preaching the woord administring the sacraments and well vsing the keyes haue their internall and spirituall regiment ouer the soules and consciences as wel of Princes as others which is the true meaning of the place that you bring out of Nazianzene Athanasius Osius Leontius Hilarie and Ambrose sharply reproue Constantius Valentinian for taking vpon them to chaunge the faith abolish the godhead of Christ plainely told those Princes they were no iudges of faith nor arbiters of doctrine which was true which false neither might they so much as interpose their iudgement or authoritie whiles such cases were debated That very lesson haue wee from the beginning taught with our lippes sealed with our blood more stedfastly than you We neuer gaue prince nor Pope right to controle the trueth or reuerse the worde which God hath established in his Church and the constant auouching thereof against earthly States powers hath cost vs as you can not choose but knowe many thousande mens liues Yet this is no let but Princes as well as other priuate persons may trie spirits and beware false Prophets And this I trust you dare not impugne that Princes may doe that for Christ which you defend they must do for Antichrist graunt vs that we require no more Chrysostome is the last of the seuen Christ sayth he when he willed Peter to feede his sheepe cōmitted the charge of them to Peter Peters successors Meaning by Peters successors not onely the bishops of Rome but him selfe and all other Bishops as appeareth by his owne words in the same place This was Christes purpose at that time when he sayd feede my sheepe to teach Peter and the rest of vs howe well he loued his Church that therefore we also should take the charge and care of the same Church with al our hearts Ambrose extendeth the wordes of Christ in like manner to al Bishops preachers It was thrise repeated by the Lord feed my sheepe Which sheepe which flocke not onely Peter receiued then in charge but he with vs and wee all with him receiued them in cure And so doth Austen When it is said to Peter it is said to all Louest thou me Feede my sheepe That women may not vndertake this charge to feede Christs sheepe it was needelesse to cite Chrysostome S. Paul sayde it before in other wordes and wee bee farre from any such follie These bee the maine and mightie proofes wherewith you thought to shake the Princes seate which conclude vtterly nothing against that we defende nor against that her Maiestie claymeth or vseth The rest of your authorities which be sixe touch not vs at all nor any thing in question betwixt you and vs saue the last where S. Hierom writeth to Damasus He that gathereth not with thee scattereth Which words we graunt were very true when S. Hierom spake them for that Damasus rightly professed the Christian fayth which the Bishop of Rome now doeth not and by gathering with him is ment no subiection to him but a felowship with him in teaching the same trueth and keeping the bande of peace which is common to all Christians Your fift chapter which should cleere you from false doctrine and proue you to be good Catholiques hath in all but one Section of twentie sixe lines to that purpose the rest is a desperate discourse of your owne full of your bolde assertions vayne presumptions without scripture or father that helpeth you or hindereth vs. For prayer for the dead you alledge S. Augustine for honouring of Kelikes and Pilgrimage S Hierom for vocation of Saints worshipping the crosse and memories of Martyrs S. Cyril for the sacrifice of the Masse Saint Chrysostome for the corporall presence of Christ in the Sacrament the Lateran Councell for Images the second Councel of Nice Gregorie to Serenus and Damascene for the power of Priesthood to remit sinnes S. Ambrose A weake foundation to beare so great a frame Cyril Chrysostome and Ambrose in the places which you quote teache nothing lesse than those errors and abuses which you mayntaine The seconde Councell of Nice was very neere 800 the Lateran Councell aboue a thousand yeres after Christ both too yong to make any doctrine Catholique Gregorie liketh that stories should be painted in the Church but adoration of thē he detesteth which yet that wicked Councell of Nice did after establish Damascene you may take backe againe his credite is so smale that we neede not answere him S. Hierom is hoat against Vigilantius and so hoat that Erasmus is faine to say Conuiciis debacchatur Hieronimus Hierom rayleth without measure Yet the most honour that he gaue to the bodies or ashes of Martyrs by whom God after their deaths wrought great miracles was to be fairely wrapt and honestly kept in their Chappels The tending of tapers and setting vp of waxe candles before them he denieth to be vsed in the Church in other places if any such thing were he imputeth it to the vnskilfulnesse and simplicitie of some Lay men and deuout women that had zeale but not according to knowledge What is this for your defence You make newe Relikes you set foorth vnshamefast Legends and deuise false miracles to deceiue the people you giue them Pardons for manie thowsande thowsande yeeres you promise them helpe in all their needes and effect in all their desires you make a very marte of the graces and gyftes of God to cause men to runne from place to place from Saint to Saint
against our Soueraigne you neither may nor doe refuse to bee commenders assisters perfourmers of his vngodlie purposes tende they neuer so much to the preiudice of this Realme and disturbance of her Maiesties Title State and wel-fare Which tyranous vsurpation in him and trayterous affection in you no Father that is Catholicke did euer allowe no Prince that is auncient did euer endure And as for your skattered and maymed examples which here you heape to fraie the simple with emptie names and loftie words not one of them auoucheth and such matter or meaning Phi. If they prooue not the Popes iurisdiction ouer Princes which you stoutelie denie yet I trust they proue that wee may sende or goe to Rome to bee resolued in doubtes of Religion and to bee relieued in times of affliction which is all wee require Theophil Counsell in cases of fayth and comforte in dayes of daunger bee no signes of authoritie but dewties of Charitie neyther those peculiar to the Bishoppe of Rome but common to the whole Church of God and therefore if your examples reache no farther but that Princes haue beene sometimes aduised and other good men harbored by the Bishops of Rome whiles the Citie was famous for learning and religion you take great paines to proue that which neither helpeth you nor hindereth vs. All this may bee graunted and your running to Rome no whit the sooner concluded to bee lawfull Phi. What reason barreth vs now from trauelling to Rome more than others heretofore Theo. Your holie Father pretendeth and exerciseth in our daies a monstrous and pernicious power ouer the Church of Christ which at that time when these godly men wrote and repayred to Rome was neither attempted by him nor mistrusted by them So that they might resort to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt without offence to the Church or contempt to the state because the Bishops then behaued themselues as religious members not as presumptuous heades of the Church and liued as subiectes not as superiors to the Prince you can now not flie to the Bishop of Rome but you must do violent wrong to them both to the Prince by renouÌ„cing your subiection breaking your oth and bearing armes against your liege Ladie when the Pope commaundeth to the Church in thinking teaching the Bishop of Rome to bee the decider of all doubtes vpholder of all truth expounder of all Scriptures Confirmer of all Councelles dispenser with all lawes yea supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and all matters that any waie touch or concerne Religion Which strange and incredible pride those examples which you bring are so far from allowing that we need no better witnesse to confute you with Phi. You doe but iest I dare saie Theo. Examine the particulars you shall finde them make cleane against you or at least nothing for you The Bishop of Rome you saie gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it afterward in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme This last I may skip as a fond effect of your distempered choler The Gospell nowe preached among vs you call in your heat Zwinglianisme from the which though some of you be lightly stept I trust in God the worst your holie Father can doe shall neuer remoue vs. That this lande was infected with Arianisme and Pelagianisme as manie other places then were I finde it reported in the storie of Bede that the Bishop of Rome recouered vs from both or from either I finde it not yea rather certaine it is the Bishoppes of Fraunce our neighbours vppon request made vnto them by the Britanes sent Germanus and Lupus two french Bishoppes chosen in a Synode by the generall liking to conuert this Realme from Pelagius error which also they did with great celeritie So that of those foure recoueries to the faith which you reckon in fauour of the Bishoppes of Rome the last is the present estate which we striue for the two next be false the first is only left that furthereth your conclusion but little Phi. Will you denie that the Bishop of Rome first caused the Britanes and Saxons to bee christened Theo. I will denie nothing that is true presume you no more than you proue and we shall soone growe to an ende Lucius an auncient king of the Britanes wrote to Eleutherius Bishop of Rome for his helpe that him selfe and his people might be baptised and Gregorie the great sent Augustine the Moncke to see whether he could king Edelbert and the Saxons Doth this proue the Pope superiour to Princes or that he may send his factours hither without the Princes leaue Phi. There was somewhat in it that Lucius sent so farre Theo. This Realme was then rude learning here skant religion newly sprong no where setled Coilus his father brought vp at Rome from a child and one that of his owne accorde yeelded both friendship and tribute to the Romanes Lucius himselfe a great fauourer of the Romane Empire and no place neere home so famous well furnished with able men to serue his turne as Rome What maruaile then if Lucius so wel acquainted and frinded at Rome before thought best to be thence directed and instructed at his first entrie to the Christian faith But can you proue that Lucius was bounde to doe that hee did or that Eleutherius did any thing against the Princes will Phi. I say not so Theo. Then this example maketh litle for you which be sent hither not only without the Princes leaue but against her liking and Lawes to withdrawe the peoples hearts from her and to prepare them for a farther purpose Gregories fact in sending to conuert the Saxons maketh lesse For Augustine and his felowes notwithstanding they were sent from Rome as you are and taught nothing but subiection and obedience to Princes which you doe not yet woulde they not enter this land without the kings consent and permission but rested in the Isle of Tenet til his pleasure were knowne and offered not to preach in this Realme before the king in expresse wordes gaue them licence They came not in disguised as you doe they lurked not in corners they traueled not by night they brought no bulles in their bosomes to discharge the subiects and depose the Prince the Bishop of Rome that sent them neither stirred rebellion nor inuaded king Edelberts dominion And where you being subiects offer that wrong to a Christian Queene which they being straungers did not to an heathen king yet would you beare men in hand you follow their example but lay downe the true report of these stories and see howe handsomely they fitte your conclusion Eleutherius being requested by king Lucius sent some to baptise him and his subiects and Gregorie sent others to tâ—â—e whether king Edelbert woulde giue them leaue to preach to the Saxons ergo you may flee to the Bishoppe of
dignitie but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie His place was first when the Patriarkes met but his voyce not negatiue he might assemble his prouince and consult with them but not conclude without them himselfe was subiect both to the decrees of Councels and to the lawes of the Christian Emperours euen in causes ecclesiasticall and was oftentimes not only resisted by famous men but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels when he attempted any thing against the Canons Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes to couer the lamenesse of your conclusion Phi. Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe if Iulius had nought to do with his matter Theo. Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche vpon this pretence that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus before he was banished and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place and finding the East Church not able to succour him for that Constantius the Emperour supported his enemies with a strong hand fled to the Bishop of the West where Constans a religious and curteous Prince brother to Constantius raigned and made his complaint as reason was he should first to the Bishop of Rome the cheefest man amongst them and the ringleader of the rest with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria desiring no more but that his case might be heard and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East much lesse the Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts as well East as West indifferently balanced and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius before they allowed the same or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion Phi. The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe and restored him to his place reprouing them that rashly deposed him Theo. Socrates as an Historiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points and chiefe persons but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe you shal find that true which I say Phi. What shall we finde Theo. That the West Bishops were ioyned with Iulius in all this action and nothing done without their Sinodal decree Phi. How proue you that Theo. First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt Thebais Lybia Pentapolis witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered and earnestly crauing a dew reformation of the same were written not to Iulius alone but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer hauing these words in the cōclusion For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius to admit him to your fellowship and communion and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians his enemies the authors of these disorders and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing Haec quidem Aegyptij ad omnes ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere this they of Egypt wrate to all and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that in sight the complaint was made generally to them all Phi. But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince Theo. Iulius by the consent of both parts and aduise of all the Bishops of Italie and other places neere him appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed Phi. What a mincing you make of this matter Iulius cited that is Iulius exhorted them to come Iulius heard the cause that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it Theo. What a mountaine you make of a mole hill I repeate the very wordes of Iulius and good reason in his owne fact to beleeue him best Phi. If he say so but I doubt you mistake the words Theo. Then may you take them righter but I am perfect I misse them not Heare first what Athanasius and then after what Iulius writeth Quin Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere vt nos terrerent Synodum conuocari iusserunt ipsi Iulio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius and the rather to fray vs willed a Synode to be called and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause if he would Which Socrates doeth not omit Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij ad se litem hanc vocaret Eusebius when he had done all that he woulde sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius and to call for the hearing of this contention Phi. Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause Theo. That Iulius as chiefe but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel For they required to be heard in a common Councell both of East and West Bishops Phi. As yet I see no such thing Theo. Say not so for Athanasius euen now told you that his enemies to fray him in their letter to Iulius willed a Councell to be held for this matter and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme writeth thus What is there done worthie of offence or what cause haue I giuen you to whom I wrate to be angrie An quia adhortati vos sumus vt ad Synodum occurreretis Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an other to this end that both they which were Iudges knowing a secōd examination of the
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
a societie with the East Bishops for himself and the rest of his prouince as hauing no lesse interest in the Church than they had Phi. What say you then to the prerogatiue of the Romane See and to that ecclesiastical Canon which forbiddeth to meddle in the Church without the consent of the Romane Bishop Theo. The Bishop of Rome had this prerogatiue that first he should be written vnto by reason of his place which was first but not that he alone should be written vnto So saith Iulius Cur igitur in primis de Alexandria ciuitate nihil nobis scribere voluistis an ignari estis hanc esse consuetudinem vt primùm nobis scribatur vt hinc quod iustum est definiri posset Why then would you write nothing to vs especially touching the citie of Alexandria Are you ignorant of this custome that you shoulde write to vs first that hence that which is iust might bee determined Phi. No better text from Rome must bee determined what is right in the regiment of the Church Theo. A wise catch I promise you Did you not heare Iulius euen now speake the same wordes of euery Bishoppe Vt ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur that euery one might determine what was iust So that Iulius by this had no greater authoritie than the rest for right was to bee determined by them all Phi. The Canon of the Church made euery thing voyde that was done without the Bishop of Rome Theo. That which you call a Canon in deed was an order taken by the Bishops among thēselues for the better guiding of the Church by common consent when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates and the same was afterward liked and allowed of Godly Princes as the best way to keepe the Church in peace from quarrels and factions And this it was In waightie matters no prouinciall Councell might deale without consulting the rest of the Patriarkes who straightway conferring with the Bishoppes of their Prouinces wrate backe the generall opinion of themselues and their brethren This if any Councell did omit the Prouinces rounde about were at libertie to reiect their proceedings if they saw cause This Canon or kind of regiment obserued in the Church Iulius obiecteth against the councel of Antioch Oportuit secundum Canonem iudicium fieri Iudgement should haue proceeded according to the Canon that is Oportuit omnibus nobis scribere vt ab omnibus quod esset iustū decerneretur You should haue written to vs al that that which was iust might haue beene concluded by all And as by the Canon they should haue written to al so first to the Bishop of Rome by reason that his place was the first in order among the Patriarkes which is all the prerogatiue that Iulius in his Epistle claymeth for himselfe and his See This is that ecclesiasticall Canon and priuilege which Socrates and Sozomenus doe mention when they say the Councell of Antioch did against the Canons in that they called not the Bishop of Rome to their assemblie Phi. The deposition of a Bishoppe was no matter of such importance that a Prouinciall Synode might not attempt it without the rest Theo. Yes the deposing of a Patriarke was in it selfe a matter of great weight and required the consent of the rest as appeareth by that which the Councell of Antioch long before this did against Paulus Samosatenus where you shall finde the causes of his condemnation layde downe at large in their letters written to all Prouinces and namely to Dionysius and Maximus Bishops of Rome and Alexandria but yet the wrong offered Athanasius at this time touched the fayth Church of Christ nearer than one mans iniurie Phi. Why Theo. The Arians by their shifts and practises had almost gotten the most part of the East Churches and finding the two principall Archbishops of Constantinople and Alexandria greatly to hinder their enterprise for that their prouinces were very wide and many that stoutly defended the trueth were shielded by them they thought best to inuade them both at one time thrusting Paulus from his Bishopricke by plaine force and pretending a Canon of their owne making against Athanasius Which if the West Bishops had quietly suffered without enterposing them selues and assisting their brethren two parts of the worlde by their silence had beene drowned in Arianisme and themselues in great danger not long to remaine without the same infection This respect made them earnest for Athanasius as Sozomene noteth The Bishops throughout the East that fauoured the Nicene faith were deposed and the cheefest Seates inuaded by the Arrians as Alexandria in Egypt Antioche in Syria the Royal Citie of Constantinople in Hellespont This the Bishop of Rome the Priests of the west tooke to be their reproch and therefore very friendly entertayned Athanasius at his comming to them and tooke vpon them the defence of his cause Phi. This is not all that Iulius did for Athanasius Theo. What els can you shew that hee did Phi. Hee called a generall Councell to determine this matter and made Constantius the Emperour glad to receiue Athanasius to his former seate Theo. By mine aduise you should haue left out this it will come very short of your reckoning Phi. Not a whit Theo. Be not so peremptorie Phi. What was not this that I say done for Athanasius Theo. It was Phi. Who then besides Iulius could bring this to passe Theo. An other if you could light on him Phi. What was he Theo. Constans the West Emperour Phi. Who sayth so besides you Theo. The three writers of the Church storie which with one consent agree that the West Emperour called the Councel and threatened his brother if Athanasius and Paulus were not suffered to enioy their former places Iulius when the letters which he sent touching Paulus and Athanasius did nothing preuaile with the East Bishoppes opened their cause to Constans the Emperour Constans wrote to his brother that he should send some of the Bishops of the East to shewe him the reason why these men were deposed Three were chosen who comming to Italie went about to perswade the Emperour that the Synode of the East Bishops had done well and Constans perceiuing they had done vniustly sent thē backe whence they came And because Constans requiring this fauour at his brothers hands that Athanasius the rest with him might be restored could not obtaine so much and those that were with Paulus and Athanasius getting to his presence besought him that a Synode might be called it pleased the Emperour that the bishops of either side should meet at Sardica by a certaine day prefixed Phi. It might please him they should do so but how proue you the thither they came by his authoritie Theo. Athanasius going to Constans bewayled vnto him the violence that was offered the Apostolicke faith Putting the Prince in mind of his fathers acts that the
greatest Councel that euer was was called by him the determination of those fathers lawfully confirmed beseeching the Emperour with teares to imitate his Father Constans vpon the hearing of these thinges presently writeth to his brother and warneth him to keepe inuiolably the inheritance of his fathers faith Constantius moued with thâ—se letters appointed a Councel to be held at Sardica and willed the Bishops as wel of the East as the west to be their present After this Councel had likewise concluded for Paulus and Athanasius against their deposers Constans wrate to his brother the resolution of the Synode and exhorted him to restore them to their places which when Constantius delayed and differred the West Emperour offereth him this choyse either to restore them their Churches or if he woulde not to looke for hostilitie and warre Wherupon the East Emperour being driuen to this streit sent for Athanasius and his fellowes by three seuerall letters and not only restored them but abolished all things that might any way be preiudiciall to them By this you see Iulius had no power to cal a general Councel but Athanasius was fayne to begge it of the Prince with teares and the Bishoppe of Rome was not then taken for the last and supreme Iudge on earth But the Councel sate in Iudgement after him where matters were ended by number of voyces Phi. Yet we saide trueth that Athanasius called for ayde of Iulius Theo. I said as truely that you florish with generalities and ambiguities conclude nothing For what haue you gotten nowe more than we graunted at first or which way doth this example perteyne to that which is in question betwixt vs Phi. You make too light of our proofes Theo. Then put you more weight to them I take them as I find them and for ought that I see you can not mend them Phi. Well esteeme them as you lift they proue that the Bishop of Rome was euer a sure refuge for the Catholiques against heretikes which he neuer perfourmed more worthily than in our dayes Theo. I thinke in deede Rome was neuer fuller of deuises and practises than at this present Antichrist is so carefull for his kingdome lest it fall that hee spareth neither men nor money to be reuenged on those that shrinke from him but when all is done God will strike the stroke Phi. No doubt he will but neuer for you that bee so shamefully fallen from his Church Theo. You be more shamefully fallen from his word consequently from faith which is the foundation of the Church neither can he be ioyned to the Church which is seuered from the Gospel But we go from the matter your examples bee not yet all discussed Phi. Returne when you will Theo. Chrysostome and Augustine you say asked ayde of Innocentius Phi. They did so Theo. Ayde they might aske and he might yeeld and yet neither make for your purpose Phi. That were maruaile Theo. None at all Chrysostome whom you first name sought for helpe as Athanasius did but the displeasure which Arcadius the East Emperour had conceiued against him was so great that Innocentius coulde not preuaile Phi. It serueth our turnes that Chrysostome did seeke to the Bishop of Rome notwithstanding Arcadius by force did ouerbeare him Theo. Chrysostome sought nothing but that his cause might bee heard in a full Synode before indifferent Iudges Phi. It maketh much for Innocentius supremacie that Chrysostome sought this at his handes Theo. You must make your foundation surer before your building will stand You sawe by the last example of Athanasius that the Bishop of Rome and the west Church might reiect refuse the sentence of any Prouinciall Synode giuen against the Patriarke vnlesse their consents were first had And euen the very same doeth Chrysostome request of Innocentius that he would neither admit nor allowe the proceedings of his aduersaries against him as good nor communicate with him that was chosen by them to succeede in his place Phi. This still confirmeth that nothing was good if the Bishop of Rome did dissent Theo. And still that inferreth nothing but yâ— the Bishop of Rome and his Prouince were a part of the Church and by reason and equitie were to giue their voyces as wel as others before the rest might conclude any thing that did concerne or should bynde the whole Church And this is strange that where the Bishoppe of Rome for himselfe and his Prouince seeketh en equalitie with others as a part of the Church you frame him alone a superioritie ouer all others as the heade of the Church Your examples shewe this that others without him could not bind the whole Church because the conseÌ„t was not general your conclusion must be this that he without all others as Christes UicegereÌ„t in earth might dispose the whole Church at his pleasure See you no differeÌ„ce betwixt these two positions Phi. I confesse they differ but can you shew that others withstoode him as well as he withstood them Theo. Yea that I can Phi. Arians perhaps or Donatists Theo. Nay Catholike fathers Councels Phi. Shew that and you say somewhat to the matter Theo. That I will shew when your proofes are ended I thinke not good to mingle yours and ours together Phi. Ours I graunt are much after one sort and therefore I long to heare yours Theo. No hast but good anon you shall you would faine I see ridde your hands Phi. You shall well know the contrarie Say what you can Theo. I say nothing but that you gaine litle by Chrysostoms example Phi. Doe we not These be Chrysostomes wordes to Innocentius Wherefore least this confusion inuade euery nation vnder Heauen I beseech you write that these vniust proceedings both in our absence and when wee refused not iudgement may be of no force as in deed of themselues they are not and let them which haue doone this wrong feele the censure of the ecclesiasticall Lawes and suffer vs that were neither conuicted nor charged with any crime nor so much as conuented to enioy your letters of communion and charitie and likewise of all others whose fellowship wee had before Doeth he not in these wordes request Innocentius to pronounce the sentence voyd that was giuen against him to remoue the authors of this disorder from the communion Theo. To Dissent from it was enough to vndoe it because neither he nor his prouince were acquainted with it to excommunicate the doers was nothing els but to communicate no longer with them which euery Bishop and prouince might do when any wilful breach of the Canons was offered Phi. This petition was made to Innocentius alone and not to the residue of the West Bishops Theo. If Innocentius alone were spoken to the matter is not great Sure it is the Bishop of Rome neither did nor might deale in these cases without the consent of his brethren for feare least when the matter came to voyces as in the end it
their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
Call the booke howe you will so the wordes bee there Phi. There shall you finde them Theo. There we finde them not Phi. What Prints haue you Theo. Prints enow Alopecius at Cullen Heruagius at Basill Langelier at Paris Crinitus at Antuerp Gryphius at Lions Manutius at Rome In all these and diuerse others we finde no such wordis Phi. In deede I confesse the wordes were wanting till Pamelius a Canon of Bruges found them in an old written copie lying in the Abbay of Cambron In his edition printed at Antuerp by Stelsius you shall finde them Theo. And thinke you Philander that all other copies both printed written lacking those words Pamelius did wel to put them to Cyprians text Phi. He laid them down as he found them written in the copie which is kept at Cambron Theo. As though the blinde Abbay of Cambron were of greater credit authoritie than all the Churches and Libraries of Christendom Phi. I say not so Theo. What else do you say when you cite these words for Cyprians which no copie printed nor written hath besides that of Cambron There haue trauelled in the correcting setting forth of Cyprian at sundry times men of your owne religion not a few namely Remboltus Canchius Costerius Erasmus Grauius Manutius Morelius euerie one of these for their seuerall editions searching farre and neere and vsing the best written copies that coulde be gotten or heard of and they all agree that no such wordes are founde in their copies yea Pamelius himselfe hauing as hee confesseth the sight and helpe of eight other written copies from diuerse places founde these wordes in none but in Cambron copie Since then either Cambron copie must be corrupt or an infinite number of other written copies that haue beene viewed by these learned men of your owne side and are yet extant in diuerse Abbayes and Churches obedient to the See of Rome at this houre say your selfe in reason whether we ought to beleeue your Cambron copie before all the copies that haue beene perused and are yet remaining in Europe Phi. That were much but how could this copie be corrupted Theo. What a question that is How could whole books be thrust into the workes of Cyprian Ambrose Hierom Austen others ly forged vnder their names not in one or two but in the most part of the Abbayes and auncient libraries of the West Church Your Monkes and Friers that were so skilfull in committing these manifold forgeries were not to seeke how to corrupt your Cambron copie Phi. It helpeth Pamelius very much that Gratian 400. yeares agoe cited the very same words as out of Cyprian Theo. Gratian might be deceiued by the same or some other false copie as wel as Pamelius of al men Gratian him selfe is most corrupt in alleadging the Fathers but what if Gratian be forged as wel as Cyprian Phi. Nay then al shal be forged that liketh not you Theo. They that ventered on Cyprian others would neuer sticke to frame Gratian to their purpose Phi. This is but your suspicion Theo. Yes I haue some reason to chalenge this in your Canon law for a corruption The very same place of Cyprian is elsewhere alleaged at large by Gratian in his decrees where we find no such words and therefore this or that must needes be forged Againe â—ohannes Seneca who liued seuen skore yeares after Gratian ouer-skippâ—â—h this place without any glosse as not finding it in the decrees extant in his time Phi. You be deceaued there is a glosse vppon this place Theo. I am not deceaued there is none Looke to the lesser volume of your decrees printed by Iohn Petit and Thielman Keruer and you shall see there is none And he that in the bigger volume of your decrees thinking to preuent this obiection set a certaine glosse to the chapter Qui Cathedram shewed himselfe not to be his crafts maister for he grossely mistaking the wordes that follow Episcopi verò which are Gratians thinking them to be Cyprians put the summe of Gratians words as a glosse to Cyprians text which is nothing neare and so betrayeth him a willing but no skilful forgerer Last of all the relatiue that you most esteeme and I most withstand super quam on which chayre the Church is built is contrarie to the plaine wordes of Cyprian not many lines before cited by Gratian and confessed by Pamelius to be fouÌ„d in his Cambron copie super vnum illum edificat Ecclesiam vppon him alone meaning Peter Christ buildeth his Church So that either you must mend your booke and reade super queÌ„ on whom the Church is built or els make Cyprian so forgetful that with in eight lines he contradicteth himselfe refuteth his former saying Phi. May not the Church bee built on him and his successours Theo. If Peter alone were chosen by Christ to be the foundatioÌ„ that is the first stone that should be layed in the building of his Church how can that possibly bee extended to his successors Can you remoue Peter froÌ„ the foundation where Christ laied him not do him wrong Or can you change the foundation and not shake the building of the Church Phi. You tooke the foundation I perceaue for the first beginning Theo. And what call you that which is first layed in the buylding of an house but the foundation Phi. Did Cyprian meane so Theo. Cyprian expresseth his meanyng in this sort Though Christ after his resurrection gaue all his Apostles equall power yet for the declaratioÌ„ of vnitie with his owne voyce and autoritie did he dispose the originall of that vnitie to beginne in one which was Peter The rest of the Apostles were the selfesame that Peter was endewed with like fellowship of honor and power but the first beginning came from oâ—e that is Christ chose Peter alone to be the original or first beginning of his Church Now this is proper to Peters person to be the first Stone that was laied in â—he foundation of the Church and can not be deriued from him to his successour Phi. That priuilege died with Peter vnlesse it remayne in some successour Theo. Not so Peter as well after death as during life keepeth the same place which Christ gaue him in the building of his Church vnlesse you meane to exclude the Saincts cleane froÌ„ the Church of Christ. Phi. They be of the Church triumphant not militant Theo. And those be not two but one Church Ierusalem which is aboue is the mother of vs all Ye be now sayth Paul no more strangers and forreners but Citizens with the Saincts and of the howshold of God For you be come to the Citie of the Liuing God the heauenly Ierusalem and to the Church of the first borne written in heauen and to the spirits of iust men now made perfect Where you see the Saincts in heaueÌ„ be not remoued from the Church of God but we
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
Theo. That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusioÌ„ For if Cyprian the Bishops of Africa when their cause was not good resisting the Bishops of Rome both in words deeds were taken accounted in the Church of God for Christian Catholike Bishops yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them and most earnest against him for a worthie Father glorious Martyr how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes The which I may likewise conclude by the next example where the Bishops of Rome were not onely resisted but at length forced to yeelde to Flauianus although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason Phi. Did they not wel to reiect him that was made Bishop against his oth Flauianus was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke nor to accept the Bishopricke of Antioch if they were chosen till Miletius Paulinus were both dead that thereby the Church of Antioch which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops might be ioyned togither and vnited in one and hee vpon the death of Miletius whiles Paulinus yet liued not respecting his oth was content to take the place Theo. I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell and sharpenesse of contention which Damasus Syriâ—ius Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus defended his election and receiued his communion though the Bishops of Rome would do neither And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him willed him to returne feede the Church or flock committed to his charge Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation the godly Prince vndertooke his defence pleaded his cause and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned Phi. It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophilus the chiefe doer of all this and that ouersight he after corrected by yeelding to that which before he rufused Theo. What moued Cyrill at the first to withstand and after to yeeld I neede not care you may not iudge were the cause good or bad to my purpose all is one this is it that I vrge neither Cyrill nor Atticus nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communioÌ„ of the Bishop of Rome though the matter they stood on were skant sound Phi. You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was withstood by a Councell the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit as when they bee done in a publike Synode Theo. The men that I haue named vnto you were no such obscure persons that you neede doubt of theyr credit They were for their calling and function Bishops and Patriarkes for their learning and holinesse lightes in the Church of Christ and are so taken to this daie Neither as you suppose were they alone in these actions but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes and did these thinges which I spake of in open Councell Polycrates had with him a Councell in Asia when he resisted Victor and Ireneus had likewise an other in Fraunce when he reproued him Cyprian and 84. Africane Bishops ioyned together in the CouÌ„cel of Carthage against Stephanus With Flauianus as Sozomene writeth were the Bishops of Syria Phenica Armenia Cappadocia Galatia as Theodorete sayth all the Churches of Asia Pontus Thracia Illyricum besides all the East Churches That which Cyrill defended was done by two Councels allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople Antioche and their Prouinces And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters as you pretend but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes And yet to content your mind you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause Sozimus Bishop of Rome sending his Legats Faustinus Philippus and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage in fauour of Apiarius a Priest that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane which had taken both his function the communion from him for his lewdnes amongst other things gaue them in charge to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See that if any Bishoppes were accused or deposed and appealed to Rome the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter or send some from his side to represent his person and to sit in iudgement with the Bishoppes And to proue this lawfull he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome and secondly by their letters traduced the Bishop of Rome as well for his ambition as forgerie Phi. An old broken matter often alleaged and offen answered Theo. You could doe litle if you could not crake but that will not serue your turnes you must spare vs a better answere In deede Bonifacius the second doeth answere the matter in this sort Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome If you take this for an answere so is it other I know
Rome complayning what the Arians had done at Alexandria requesting at his hands the true copie of those seuentie Canons neuer remembring howe fond and foolish a fable this would be when it shoulde come to skanning and howe substantially the Bishoppes of Aphrica went to worke when this title was first pretended Phi. Doth not Iulius in his Epistle to the East Bishops repeate 27. Canons of the Nicene Councell more than our copies haue sixe of them clearer for the Popes authoritie than that which Sozimus alleadged Theo. You come in with your decretals as if they were some worthie monuments But Sirs the more you forge the lesse you gaine All the decretals you haue will not counteruaile the reason which S. Austen and the rest make to Bonifacius Quis dubitet exemplaria esse verissima Nicenae Synodi quae de tam diuersis locis de nobilibus Graecis ecclesijs adlata comparata concordat Who can doubt those copies of the Nicene Councell to be most true which being brought from so many places from the noble Churches of Greece agree when they bee compared The letters of Marcus and Iulius framed in corners and founde at Rome light of credite and full of lies are not able to frustrate the great paynes and good meanes which the Bishops of Africa bestowed and vsed in searching the trueth They had their owne bookes which were many both in Greeke and Latine they had the very copie which Coecilianus Bishoppe of Carthage that was present and subscribed in the Councell of Nice brought with him from thence they had a faithful transcript from the Churches of Alexandria and Constantinople out of their originall recordes These three copies so many thousande miles asunder and euery one of them Authentike when they were brought together and compared did word for worde agree with themselues and with the bookes that were in euery mans priuate keeping If that be not enough Ruffinus that liued in Italie and wrate in the dayes of Theodosius the elder before this matter came in question published in his Latine historie to the eyes of all men the very same number and order of the Nicene Canons which the Councell of Africa followed Yea the Bishops of Rome themselues Bonifacius and Coelestinus to whom this answere was made neuer replied neuer vrged nor offered any mo Canons than these twentie which were sent from other places though the cause required and the time serued to bring forth their seuentie Canons as well for Sozimus discharge as their owne interest authoritie which was then not only doubted but also resisted Besides this your assertion of seuentie Canons what a peeuish and senselesse fable it is Howe coulde all the true copies of the Nicene Councell throughout the worlde bee consumed and destroyed within three score yeeres and no man mislike it no man perceiue it no man report it Or howe coulde fiftie Canons bee suddenly lost and euery where twentie left in faire and Authentike writings Why would the Arians for they must bee the doers of it wreake their malice on those Canons that did not touch them and spare the Nicene creede Epistle written to the Church of Alexandria which directly condemned their impietie Nay why did the church of Rome suffer those 50. Canons to perish that made most for her prerogatiue and kept these twentie safe which rather restraine than enlarge her authoritie Phi. Trust you not Athanasius that was present when the Canons were made Theo. I trust him well but I trust not your shuffeling in what you list vnder his name Your forged Athanasius is soone disproued For if Iulius were Bishop of Rome when the Councell of Nice was called as Sozomene Bede doe witnes how could Athanasius write to Marcus next before Iulius that the Canons of the Councell of Nice were burnt Were the Canons burnt trow you before they were made Againe though al men did not allow the decrees of the Nicene Councel yet whiles Constantine liued no man saith Sozomene durst openly and plainely refuse them much lesse burne them in a furious publike tumult And what if Athanasius were not then néere Aegypt when Marcus wrate this solemne Epistle will you neuer bee weaned from these foolish forgeries Marcus letter beareth date decimo calendas Nouembris Nepotiano Secundo Consulibus the 21. of October Nepotianus and Secundus being Consuls which was the later end of the 30. yere of Constantines raigne Nowe all that yeere was Athanasius kept from Aegypt at the Councel of Tyrus without returning home fled to Constantinople where he stayed till hee was banished into Fraunce Neither was there any such persecution in Aegypt that yere or any time before vnder Constantine as this Epistle doth specifie but a great while after vnder Constantius when Marcus was dead and rotten And to conclude if the copie which Athanasius brought with him from Nice were burnt by the Arians in his time as his letter to Marcus importeth howe coulde Cyril that came long after him find an Authentike copie in the same Church as his words inferre to the Councell of Africa Phi. Marcus Epistle might be suspected if Iulius letter did not affirme the same Theo. Iulius Epistle is a right paterne of your Romish recordes For there besides impudent forgerie you shall find wilfull periurie Phi. Why so Theo. Your counterfayte Iulius is not content to forge Canons but hee byndeth thē also with an othe Verū me dixisse testis est diuinitas god is my witnes that I speake trueth Phi. You should the rather beleeue him Theo. Beleeue him As though the right and true rescript of Iulius to the Synode of Antioche were not set downe by Athanasius himselfe in his seconde Apologie to the manifest detection of your shamelesse forging and forswearing Compare that letter with this and you will blush to see the Church of Rome so fowlely ouershot And yet were there no such thing extant this blind decretall doth conuict it selfe For it beareth date the first of Nouember Felicianus and his fellow being Consuls which was the very yere that Constantine the great died Now the councel of Antioch y◠deposed Athanasius to the which Iulius wrate was gathered by Constantius the fift yere after Constantines death and so this answere to the councel of Antioch was written fiue yeres before there was any such councel assembled Again Iulius himself sayth in his Epistle to those of Antioch that Athanasius stayed at Rome with him one whole yere sixe moneths expecting their presēce after they were cited by his first letters to shew the reason of their proceeding against Athanasius these two decretals of Iulius which you bring vs beare date iust 31. dayes asunder in which tune you can not go from Rome to Antioch returne with an answere except you get you wings And so notwithstanding your shifts deuises to cloke
nominatiue case into the accusatiue and the accusatiue into the nominatiue as also the plurall number into the singular saying quas Apostolica sedes habere for quae Apostolicas sedes habere Thirdly you put in these words of your own heads ab ea alij which are not in S. Augustins text And so where S. Austen saith Among the which those Churches are that deserued to haue the seates of the Apostles and to receiue their letters you say plainly Among which Canonical scriptures those Epistles are which the Apostolike see of Rome hath which others haue deserued to receiue from her I report mee to your owne conscience Philander whether this be not a barbarous kind of corrupting the fathers which is often vsed in your canon law as I could shew but that I should make too long a digression Phi. If it be naught I excuse it not Theo. Come you with an if as though the case were not cleare Phi. A man may be soone ouerseene Theo. These be shrewd ouersights But returne to the matter that was first in hande The Britanes are the last that I named but not the last that resisted the Bishop of Rome whom Augustine the Monke that came from Gregorie coulde by no meanes get to yeeld him any subiectiō though king Edelbert slew twelue hundred of their Monkes in one day for refusing obedience to that Romish Legate Phi. Beda sayth so many were slayne but he sayth not for that cause Theo. Beda confesseth that seuen Bishops of the Britanes plures viri doctissimi and many very learned men vtterly refused Augustine when they met him in a Councell His woordes bee At illa nihil horum se facturos neque illum pro Archiepiscopo habituros esse respondebant Conferentes ad inuicem quia si modo nobis assurgere noluit quanto magis si ei subdi ceperimus iam nos pro nihilo contemnet The Britanes answered they woulde doe none of those thinges which hee required neither would they acknowledge him for their Archbishoppe Casting thus with themselues that if nowe hee will not so much as rise to vs howe litle accompt will hee make of vs if wee become subiect vnto him The auncient Brittish Storie which Galfridus Monemutensis translated writeth thus of them In a part of the Britanes Christianitie yet florished the which beginning in the daies of Eleutherius neuer failed among them After Augustine came he found seuen Bishopriks and an Archbishopricke supplied with yery godly gouernours Abbies a great nūber in which the flock of Christ was kept in good order Besides other Cities in the Citie of Bangor there was a most noble Church of 2100 Monkes all liuing with the labor of their hands Their Abbat was named Dinooch a man marueously well learned Who by diuers arguments made it appeare when Augustine required the Bishops to be subiect to him that they ought him no subiection Edelbert therefore the king of Kent as soone as he saw them refuse to yeeld obedience to Augustine and despise his preaching stirred vp Edelfride and other Princes of the Saxons to gather a great armie and goe to Bangor to destroy Dinooch and his Clergie Who taking the Citie commanded the swordes of his men to be turned first vpon the Monkes so twelue hundred of them the same day decked with Martyrdome entred the kingdome of heauen Lower if I would go examples are infinite where the Bishop of Rome hath beene not only stayed of his course and ouerruled but seuerely repressed and depriued of his Papacie Phi. By some tyrants or schismatiks I warrant you For neuer Catholike Prince or Bishop would offer him that abuse Theo. Fitten not so fast least you recant it with shame Godly Princes and prelats your owne Cardinals and Councels haue without any scruple cited suspended and deposed him which I trust is a plaine kind of resistance Phi. If they did all that which you speake Theo. I speake no more than your owne men doe witnesse The Grecians I will omit that neuer obeyed and long since so detesteth both him and his Church that if at any time the latine Priests had celebrated on their Altars they would not offer on the same except they first washed them as thinking them thereby to be defiled Michael Paleologus their Emperour they reiected from Christian burial for that in a councel at Lyons he professed the Greeke church to be subiect to the Romane See Phi. But after in the Councel of Florence they submitted themselues to the Bishop of Rome as to the true vicar of Christ head of the whole church father teacher of al christiās Theo. When the questiō was first moued thē at Florence their answer was We haue no leaue nor cōmission from the greeke church to speak these things And being vrged the second time responderunt vt pridie they answered as before nolentes vt de alia quaestione praeter illā de spiritus sancti processione in vnionis literis vlla mentio fieret not willing that in the letters of vnion any other matter should be contained besides the proceeding of the holy Ghost And though they were wonne at length to suffer it to passe in the letters of concorde hoping the West Princes vpon that perfect agreement would ayde them against the Turke and two of them were made Cardinals that by their authoritie the Greeke nation might bee kept in obedience Yet the whole Countrie saith Platina non ita multò post in antiquos mores recidit not long after fell to their former bent but I will not vrge the dislike betweene the two Churches The West Church will serue my turne better and stop your mouth sooner in the which we shall finde presidents enowe for this purpose Otho the great called a Councel of Bishoppes in Italie where Iohn the 13. was deposed for his infamous and lewd life the thinges bee so lothsome that I will not name them This fact of the Prince and the Synode the Church sawe suffered and allowed and receiued Leo the eight placed by them in his steede Henry the seconde likewise in a Councell draue Benedict the 9. Syluester the thirde and Gregorie the sixt three most vile monsters to forgoe the Popedome and chose Clemens the second to succeede them About Henry the fourth and Gregorie the seuenth though the stories bee diuided some taking the Princes and some the Popes part yet the Bishoppes of Germanie and Italie from Woormes Mentz and Brixia sent him but homely greetings as Vrspergensis confesseth In the yere of our Lord 1076 saith hee there was kept a Councell at Wormes where king Henry being present almost all the Bishops of Germanie except the Saxons deposed Pope Hildebrand writing him a letter after many crimes recited with this conclusion For so much then as thine entrance into the Popedome is infected with so great periuries and the Church of God dangerously tossed by reason of thy
blood and bowels against them And therefore no maruaile if king Henrie relented somewhat of his former stoutnesse when the king of Fraunce the Earle of Flaunders the king of Scots the yong king his sonne and two other of his children the Duke of Aquitane and Earle of Britaine cōspired against him but it is euident that frō the conquest till the time these lawes and liberties stood in their full force and were publikely receiued and vsed in this Realme Phi. Did the Pope procure him these enemies Theo. What packing there was betweene the French king and the Pope though the stories in this place do not confesse yet we may soone coniecture by the generall drift of your holy Father his blessed adherents in those daies specially by the exāple of king Iohn the sonne of the said king Henrie whom for refusing the disordered election of Stephen Langton to the church of Canterbury Innocentius the 3. so terrified with open inuasion of enemies secret defection of subiects that for safegard of himselfe he was driuen to resigne his kingdome take it againe at the Popes hands in fee farme vnder the yearly rent of a thowsand marks binding himself his heires for euer to do the like homage fealtie to the Bishops of Rome for the crowne of England Which shamefull seruitude of the Prince vtter ruine of the Realme so much displeased the barōs bishops that before toke the Popes part against the king that in plaine contempt of the Popes keies curses they chose them an other king chased king Iohn the Popes farmour from place to place in despite of al y his new Landlord could do or deuise But this I omit because the quarel touched the right title to the crown I medle only with those resistances which the kings of England made for men and matters ecclesiastical Phi. I trust they were not many Theo. For the first hundred yeares next the cōquest it is clear the kings of this Realm would neuer allow their subiects to run to Rome nor suffer appeals to be made to the Pope without their expresse consent now shall you see what they which came after did When king Edw. the 3. reuiued the statute of Premunire made by king Edw. the 1. in the 35. year of his raign against such as sought to Rome to prouide thē of benefices other ecclesiastical promotions wtin this realm enacting the same penalty for those that by processe frō thence impugned any iudgement giuen in the kings courts or brought from Rome any Bul writing or instrumēt to those other like effects Gregory the 11. then Bishop of Rome vnderstanding therof was very earnest against it protesting this was nothing else but to make a schism in the church of Christ to abolish religion to subuert right reason infringe al coūcels speedily dealt with king Edw. to abrogate this law A schisme rising not long after in the church of Rome there was not a Pope that had any care of this til at lēgth Martin the 5. wrote more vehemēt letters to K. H. the 6. But these two bishops of Rome receiued one the same answer which was that an act of Parliament could not be repealed without the autority of a Parliamēt that shortly one should be called to that end which neuer after was performed Yea the king that came after did not only cause that law to be kept put in vre but increased the terror of it with a rigorous punishmēt which is that the party so offending shal forfeit his goods himself be condemned to perpetual imprisonmēt This writer an Italian born a man wedded to the See of Rome confesseth the Popes authority was abated restrained by the lawes of this Realm in the time of king Edward the 3. and so continued euer after that not only the Popes letters were twise refused but the sharpnesse of the punishment increased to strengthen the Statute that pared their power and limited his iurisdiction within this Realme Phi. Perhaps they wtstood him for tēporal matters Theo. The matters were such as your own church accoūteth spiritual to wit electiōs of Bishops gifts of benefices procedings in other causes tending as the cōmplaint of Gregory teacheth you to the diuision of the church extirpation of religion subuersion of al councels which you may not thinke to be temporall matters And this resistance which the Bishop of Rome so much repined at in the daies of king Edward the 3. neuer ceased till king Henry the 8. of famous memory banished the Popes vsurped power cleane out of this Land Phi. So did none of his progenitors before him Theo. It may be they wēt not so far as he did but as Polydor writeth R. Rich. the 2. wēt fairly towards it In a Parliament held the 14. yeare of his raigne the king his princes were of opinion that it would be very good for the realme of England if some part of the Popes dominion were determined with the Sea that is excluded out of this lād for that many wer daily vexed for causes which they thought could not so easily be ended at Rome Wherefore they made a law that no mā euer after should deal with the Bishops of Rome that any person in Englād should by his autority for any cause be excōmunicated that none should execute any such precept if it were sent him If any mā brake this law the pain apointed was he should lose al he had ly in prison during his life And where the pope trauailed by al means to ouerthrow the statute of prouisiō premunire the parliamēt held in the 13. year of Rich. the 2. for the better establishing surer executing of the law made it death for any mā to bring or send Bul or other proces frō Rome to impugn the same These be the words Itē it is ordained established that if any mā bring or send within this realm or the kings power any sūmōs sentēce or excōmunicatiō against any persō of what cōditiō that he be for the cause of making motiō assent or executiō of the said statute of Prouisors or premunire he shal be takē arested put in prison forfeit al his lands tenements goods catle for euer moreouer incur the pain of life mēber So the kingdoms cōmonwelths as wel as councels of al others Frāce England haue from time to time resisted your holy father in the midst of his terror tyrany P. You shew they did it but you do not shew they did wel in it Th. I need not you must shew they did il The prince by gods ordināce beareth the sword not the pope therfore the presumption lieth for the prince against the pope til you proue the cōtrary besids if bishops in a synod may lawfully resist him why may not princes in their parliamēts
Upon whose cōplaint the good prince wrote this to the whole councel Your synod hath decreed I know not what in a tumult vprore whiles you seeke to peruert truth by your pestilent disorder for hatred against your fellow bishops but the diuine prouidēce wil I doubt not scatter the mischief of your contentiō make it plain in our sight whether your cōuent had any regard of truth or no. You must therefore al of you resort hither to shew the reason of your doings for so doth it seem good expedient to me to which end I willed this rescript to be sent you that as many of you as were present at the councel of Tyrus without delay repair to the place of our abode there to giue accompt how sincerely soundly you haue iudged and that before me whom your selues shal not deny to be the sincere minister of God in these cases The prince summoned the coūcel prescribed thē what they should hādle gaue charge to the parties accused to come before thē sharply rebuked the bishops assembled in this synod cōmāded thē to come corā nobis rēder a reason of their tumultuous iudgemēt assured thē that he would in his own person examin their doings whether they were good substātial or no. This power he chalēged ouer churchmē church-matters not as a violēt vsurper but as gods minister ordained to y◠intēt which the catholik bishops that took part with Athan. cōfessed to be true by their appeal the rest y◠deposed him neither did nor durst deny So the Const. was both an orderly refuge for Athan. a lawful cōtroler of the coūcel of Tyrus notwtstāding the crimes obiected there to Macarius Atha were spiritual to wit the striking of a priest ouerthrowing the Lordes table dashing in peeces the mystical cup burning the sacred books vsing a dead mās hand to sorcery with many such hainous offences leudly deuised by their accusers not any way proued against them yet taken by their aduersaries then iudges for iust matter to condemne them In restoring Arius the mildnesse of Constantine was somewhat abused by the crafty dissembling of heretikes yet thereby may well appeare what authority this Prince claimed to command Bishops release the rigor of their ecclesiastical cēsures Thus stood the case The Princes was often tolde that Arius held no such opinion as the world misdouted in him If Arius saith he consent to the Nicene coūcel I wil admit him to my sight send him home with honor Arius his adherents accepting the cōdition were willed to put their faith in writing with their wily submission so pleased Cōstantine very glad to see them yeeld to the Nicene creed that he sent thē with his letters towards Alexandria to be receiued At their cōming Athanasius the Bishop of those parts refused to cōmunicate with them aduertising his Maiesty by writing the heretiks once deposed might not be restored to their former estate Constantine tooke this exception in such il part that he fel to cōmanding Athanasius in short sharp terms Knowing our pleasure WE CHARGE YOV that you suffer freely those that will to returne to the church For if I learn that you forbid or exclude such as would gladly be partakers of the church I WILL PRESENTLY SEND ONE THAT SHALL BY COMMISSION from me DEPOSE YOV This saith Socrates he wrote minding to profit the church end al dissētion but it fel out otherwise for the citizēs of Alexādria were so troubled with the boldnes of Arius lack of Athanasius then banished that Cōstantine doubting the peruerse mind of Arius sent for him asked him whether he wold subscribe to the Nicene faith which he did there in presence very readily but slily The Prince musing at it exacted an oth that he took likewise Then the christian Emperor finding no cause to suspect him farther COMMANDED ALEXANDER BISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE TO RECEIVE HIM the next day TO THE COMMVNION which God preuēted with a suddain shameful death in detestation both of his heresie so long defended periury then freshly cōmitted Now chose whether you wil affirm that Cōstantine was ouer presumptuous imperious in the church of Christ against al reason good order or else agnise that Princes had then authority to require the subscriptions othes of such as they suspected in religion to restore those that were deposed to their ancient places vpon their submission and command the chiefe Bishops for so were both these the first of Alexandria the second of Constantinople to receiue such as had purged themselues in the Princes iudgement and presence to the communion Phi. Uengeāce frō heauen decided the case with Athanasius against Arius Th. No doubt Arius was worthly plagued for his false swearing wicked meaning to trouble the church of God worse with his secret dissembling than he did before with his open rebelling but what is this to Constantine whose zeale to preserue truth was neuer doubted whose care to procure concord in the church can not be blamed whose diligence to sift Arius with an oth could not be bettered We propose not the lewed fact of Arius blaspheming God iugling with man we detest that mōster as much as you but we lay forth the steps of Cōstātine seeking hoping his reformatiō to the end cōmanding the very Patriarks themselues threatning due punishement if his princely will were not obeyed Iustinian in his Code repeateth the lawes of former Emperours not onely touching the Christian faith baptisme Churches and bishops but also touching heretiks Apostataes Iewes and Infidels In his Authentikes he maketh many new cōstitutions in which he disposeth OF SACRAMENTS in what places by what persons with what lowdnes of voice they shal be ministred OF SYNODS when they shall be kept what things shal be reformed in them according to the sacred Canons and his Princely lawes also what Canons of Councels shall stand in the same strength with his Lawes OF CHVRCHES AND ABBAIES guiding the maner of their erection the number of their Clerkes their expences suites and priuileges OF MONKS who shal elect their Abbate what time shall suffice for their triall what rules they shall keepe for praier diet rest and such like dueties of life to whom the correction and ouersight of them shall belong OF PRIESTS DEACONS AND OTHER SERVITORS in the Church limiting their age condition learning and good report before they shall be receiued to this charge their diligēt sober and chast behauiour afterward OF BISHOPS howe they shall bee chosen in what sort their soundnes in faith skill in common prayer and clearnes from all iust accusations prohibited by the sacred rules or lawes imperiall shal be throughly sifted before they may bee confirmed what causes they shall medle with in their Consistories what superior iudges they themselues shall haue from whom they shal not appeale what punishment they shall
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
faith and which your Highnes for verie loue to trueth will make voide by your decree to the contrarie most glorious Emperour I therefore earnestly request and beseech your Maiestie by the Lord Iesus Christ the founder and guider of your kingdom that in this councell of Chalcedon which is presently to bee kept you will not suffer the faith to bee called in question which our blessed Fathers helde deliuered them from the Apostles neither permit such errours as haue beene long since condemned by them to bee nowe reuiued againe but that you will rather commaunde the faith concluded in the first Nicene Councell to stande in full force remouing all the latter deuises of Heretikes Which request Martian accomplished entering the Councell in his owne person and there by word of mouth absolutely forbidding the Bishops to defend or auouch any thing of the flesh and birth of our Sauiour otherwise thā the Nicene creed did containe To this councel of Chalcedon Leo willed by Martiā to subscribe returned his answere in this suppliant duetifull order Because I must by all meanes obey your sacred and religious will I haue set down my consent in writing to those Synodall constitutions which for the confirmation of the catholike faith and condemnation of heretiks pleased me very well What better witnesse can we produce that in causes Ecclesiasticall the Prince was the Popes superiour than this that for repealing the Councell of Ephesus for summoning the Councell o◠Chalcedon for charging those 600. and 30. fathers not to decline from the Nicene faith and requiring the Bishop of Rome to subscribe to their actes Martian commaundeth with authoritie Leo with al readinesse obeyeth yea that Leo beseecheth Martian to commaund and protesteth that for his part he did and must obey the Princes will in those cases We COMMAVND saith Iustinian the blessed ARCHBISHOPS of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem to receiue for ordering and instauling of Bishoppes onely that which this present Lawe doeth allow And taxing the charges of euery Bishoppe according to the yearly value of his Church If any man saith hee presume to take for installations or other duties aboue the rate which we prefixe we cōmand that he repay thrise so much of his own to the church or bishop in that sort grieued Neither doth he limit the Popes receites onely but also bindeth him with the rest by this general constitution If any man be made Bishop contrary to the forme which this law prescribeth the party confirmed shall loose his Bishopricke and the confirmer stand suspended from his Ecclesiasticall function one whole year and besides forfeit all his goods to the vse of his owne church mary when a bishop is accused of any thing that doth by the sacred canons or our lawes hinder his consecration if any man order him before diligent examination had as well he that did order him as he that is ordered shal for euer be depriued Thus coulde auncient Princes commaund in causes and correct for offences Ecclesiasticall euen the chiefest Patriarkes and namely the Bishop of Rome who now taketh on him to depose Princes and dispose kingdomes at his pleasure This illation is more than euident by the wordes of Gregorie the first who writing to the Emperour Mauritius vseth euery where this stile My Lord my most gracious Lord I your seruant and subiect to your commaundement and that not in temporall causes but in things concerning the rules and orders of Christes church as by the speciall circumstances will appeare Mauritius perceiuing that many coueted to be Clergi-men and Monkes some to preuent the daunger of their accomptes others to decline the burden of warfare made this decree that no souldier nor officer accountant to the Prince for any summes of mony should be receiued to sacred orders or Monastical profession charging the Bishoppe of Rome to giue notice thereof to the rest of his Prouince Gregorie though very much amased and grieued at the strangenesse of this law yet durst not resist or refuse the same but first with all diligence put the commaundement of Mauritius in execution and afterward fell to beseeching him to relent somewhat from the rigour of this hard and seuere prohibition My Lord hath giuen forth this edict saith he that no man entangled with seruice for the common weale should enter any ecclesiasticall function which I greatly praysed knowing that he which on the suddaine steppeth from a secular trade to a spiritual charge doth not meane to leaue but exchange the world Where it is added that none such should be suffered in any Monasterie this I maruailed at seeing the place doth not hinder the making of his accompts nor the paiment of his debts It followeth in the same law That no man once mustered as a souldier should cōuert from that calling and become a Monke Which constitution I confesse to my Lord did euen astonish mee because the way to heauen is thereby shut vp from many men and that now prohibited as vnlawfull which hath hitherto bin frankly permitted And what am I that speake to my Lord but dust and a verie worme Yet for that this Edict tendeth against God the creator of all thinges I can not conceale so much from my Lord. I therefore beseech you by the dreadful iudge that your holines wil either mitigate or abrogate this rigorus proclamation I for my part as subiect to your commaundement haue sent your precept into sundrie coastes yet because your Lawe doeth not stand with Gods glorie Lo by letters I haue acquainted my most glorious Lord there-withall So that I haue either way done my duetie which haue both yeelded obedience to my Prince and in Gods behalfe disburdened my conscience I your vnworthie suppliant waxe not thus bold either in respect I am a Bishop or in that I am your seruant by publike right but resting on your speciall and priuate fauour for that most gracious Soueraigne you were my Lord and master when as yet you were not Lord and chiefe ouer all If it be possible for a subiect to shew more submission and dutie to the Princes commaundement than the Bishop of Rome doth to Mauritius restraining all Bishops by his princely power from admission of such Monkes and election of such Clerkes as hee disabled let your Apologie bee had in some credit but if greater obedience than these wordes import neither Gods law doth exact nor Princes can expect I trust Gregories owne confession shal be taken without exception The like submission vpon like occasion is extant in other his Epistles as when Mauritius willed him to grow to some concord with Iohn Bishop of Cōstantinople to whom or from whom Gregorie would in no wise send or accept letters of communion societie because the saide Iohn entitled him vniuersall Patriarke I haue saith hee receiued letters from my vertuous Lord that I should be at peace with my brother and fellow Bishop Iohn In deed
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
els you make a madde construction But if you meane that Princes should not rule Bishops in ecclesiastical causes iudgements that is not worke them nor force them against the witnes of their heartes and consciences to follow the willes and appetites of Princes as Constantius did by the report of Athanasius in this place then the wordes which you bring be very true but nothing pertinent to this question The ruling then of Bishoppes and sitting as president of ecclesiasticall iudgements which Constantius vsed and Athanasius reproued was nothing elss but a wilfull contempt in himselfe of the faith and Canons of the Church and a furious compulsion of others to make them determine what hee listed and condemne whom him pleased without respect of trueth and against all order of common iustice Phi. This is your gloze which wee doe not beleeue Theo. Your owne witnesses say the same whom you may not well discredite Phi. Which of them Theo. Athanasius and Hilarie Phi. Where say they so Theo. Not farre from the places which your selfe alleage The whole Epistle of Athanasius which you quote is a large repetition of yâ— tirannous words and deedes of Constantius touching causes ecclesiasticall The first booke of Hilarie against Constantius the first I meane as they nowe stande in order though the last in time as they were written doeth handle the same argument Reade either of them you can not choose amisse Let passe the horrible persecution raysed by Constantius wherein the Pagans were set to inuade the Churches of Christians and to beate the people with staues and stones the Bishops Priests and Monkes were bound with chaynes and scourged with roddes the women were haled by the hayre to the iudgement seate the virgins were tosted by the fire and whipped with Prickles others were banished strangled trampled to death vnder feete and their limmes and ioyntes euen torne and rent asunder after they were dead in so much that Athanasius is fayne to crie out who was not amazed at these things who would giue them the name of Ethnicks much lesse of christians who will thinke them to haue the conditions of men and not rather of beastes who perceiued not the Arrians to bee crueller than beasts The straungers standing by yea the Ethnicks detested the Arians as Antichristes and butchers of men O new found heresie which in villanies and impieties hast put on the fulnes of the Diuell howe great so euer hee bee let passe I say these thinges and come to his behauiour in matters and causes ecclesiasticall Paulinus Lucifer and other Bishoppes being called before him the Emperour commaunded them to subscribe against Athanasius and to communicate with the Arrians they marueiling at this strange endeuor answering that the ecclesiastical Canons would not suffer them so to doe hee straightway replied AT QVOD EGO VOLO PRO CANONE SIT ita me loquentem Syriae episcopi sustinent aut ergo obteÌ„perate aut vos quoque exules esrote LET MY WIL BE TAKEN OF YOV FOR A CANON the Bishoppes of Syria content themselues with this speach of mine Therefore doe as I will you or depart into banishment And when the Bishoppes held vp their hands to God and with great libertie proposed their reasons shewing him that the kingdome was not his but Gods of whom he receiued it and that it was to bee feared lest hee that gaue it would speedyly take it from him also setting before him the day of iudgement and aduising him not to subuert ecclesiasticall order nor to mingle the Romane Empire with the constitutions of the Church nor to bring the Arrian heresie into the Church of God he woulde neither heare them nor permit them to speake but greeuously bending his browes for that they had spoken and shaking his sword willed them to be caried away This was Constantius manner in conuenting Bishoppes and thus hee peruerted the fayth and good order of Christes Church vppon a selfe wil subiecting all Lawes both diuine and humane to his eger and erroneous fansie And who seeing him thus to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes president of ecclesiasticall iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that desolation of abomination foretold by Daniel Phi. You put thus to the text which Athanasius hath not Theo. But the right meaning of Athanasius woordes must bee gathered hy that which goeth before and followeth after Intelligentia dictorum sayth Hilarie ex praecedentibus consequentibus expectetur The vnderstanding of any speach must bee taken from the precedents and consequents The conclusion is not proued but by the premisses and therefore must bee measured by the premisses Athanasius bringeth many particulars to shewe in what sort Constantius ouer-ruled the Bishoppes and preferred his owne will before all constitutions and Canons of the Church and then inferreth Who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes and president of ecclesiasticall iudgements in that â—ort as hee doeth would not pronounce him to be Antichrist Now in what sort he did it the whole Epistle besides doeth declare thither must you repaire if you will see howe Constantius behaued himselfe in ecclesiasticall causes and consequently what thinges Athanasius and the rest misliked in him Phi. Howe did Constantius behaue himselfe say you Theo. That is worth the searching By that you shal see what cause Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius had to reproue him Phi. Say no more than you iustly proue Theo. No more shall bee sayde than your owne witnesses report I hope you will take them for direct and true deponents Phi. I doe not mistrust them Theo. Then heare them There were fiue principall points wherein Constantius dealt very intemperately wickedly as the writings of Athanasius and Hilarie doe testifie The often altering of the fayth the wresting from Synodes what hee would the banishing of Bishoppes vpon false accusations the intruding of others in their places against all order and the forcing of all sorts to communicate with the Arrians Of his altering the fayth Hilarie thus complayneth Fayth is come nowe to depend rather on the tyme than on the Gospel Our state is dangerous miserable that we haue nowe as many fayths as wils and as many doctrines as manners whiles faiths are either so written as we list or so vnderstood as we will We make euery yere and euery moneth a faith and still wee seeke a fayth as if there were no faith This O Constantius would I fayne knowe of thee what fayth at length thou beleeuest Thou hast changed so often that now I knowe not thy fayth That is hapned vnto thee which is wont to follow vnskilfull buylders euer disliking their own doings that thou stil pullest downe that which thou art stil setting vp Thou subuertest the olde with newe and the newe thou rentest in sunder with a newer correction and that which was once corrected thou condemnest with a second correction O thou wicked one what a mockerie doest
your Maiesties that you will cōmand the reuerend Bishop Dioscorus to answere to those things that we lay to his charge for confirming a wicked heresie deposing vs vniustly directing your sacred precept to oecumenical councel of Bishops to heare the matter between vs and the said Dioscorus and certifie your Maiesties of the whole cause that you may do therein what shal please your Graces Iustinian in his sixt Constitution prescribing what persons he will haue made Bishops and how they shal be qualified and examined before they be admitted threatneth in sharp manner He that doth any thing besides this which we haue appointed both he that is ordered shal be depriued of his function and he that did order him shall loose his Bishopricke for offending this law The like punishment he setteth downe for Simonie Though sayth Iustinian he haue all other things that we before required yet if hee procure a Bishopricke by mony or mony worth Let him knowe that hee shall be turned out of his Bishoprike and doe his orderer this pleasure that he also shall be remoued from his office and from the Clergie So for ordering and not examining that was obiected against the Person If one come to bee made a Bishop and any man contradict and offer to lay somewhat to his charge Let him not be ordered before such complaints be discussed And if he that should make him hasten to consecration after such contradiction without examining the matter Let him know that which he doth shall be vtterly void and also he that goeth against our law shall be depriued of his Priestly function and he that ordered him without trial shall likewise be remooued from his Episcopall dignitie So for absence from his church after he is Bishop This also we define that no Bishop bee so hardie as to absent himselfe from his Church aboue one whole yere If he be away longer than a yere let the Patriarke of that region cite him orderly to returne If he continue disobedient let him be clean expelled from the sacred number of Bishops And generally for all matters comprised in that constitution The things which we haue decreed for the preseruation of ecclesiastical order and state agreeable to the tenor and prescript of the sacred rules let the most holy Patriarkes of euery Prouince the Metropolitanes and the rest of the most reuerend Bishops and Clerks see that they keepe for euer hereafter sure and inuiolable the punishment to him that transgresseth these things shal be to be seuered quite from God and excluded from his Priestly degree In his sixteene constitution commaunding Clerks to be remoued from one Church to an other till the iust number which he decreed were supplied in euery Church he writeth to the Patriarke of Constantinople in this wise Your blessednes shall endeuour to put in execution the things which we haue thought decent for the profite of the sacred and holy Churches And if any thing be attempted to the contrarie let him assure himselfe that durst enter orders against this our law that it doe him no good In his 57 Constitutiō prohibiting the sacred mysteries to be celebrated in priuat Chappels these things saith he we commaund to the most holy Archbishop and vniuersall Patriarke of this Citie In his 123 Constitution you shal find examples enough of his Princely prohibitions and commaundements to Bishops for matters concerning the regiment of the Church For first appointing how Bishoppes shall bee chosen and that the Person elected shall before his admission deliuer a confession of the true faith subscribed with his owne hand and recite the praiers vsed in the sacred communion holy Baptisme and sweare that hee neither hath giuen nor promised nor will giue any thing to those that elected him nor to him that ordereth him nor to any other the rather to attaine his ordering he addeth If any be made Bishope against this obseruation as well he shall be cast out of his Bishoprike as the other that presumed to create him against this forme shall bee seuered one yere from the sacred ministerie and shall forfeit all his goods to the Church where he is Bishop But if any man consecrate one that is accused before hee examine the matter both he that is made and he that did make him shal bee depriued of their episcopall functions Aboue al things This we decree to bee kept that no man be made a Bishop by rewards And therefore as well hee that giueth as he that taketh and he that would bee the meanes to worke it shal be degraded And so going on with Diuers ecclesiastical Chapters he saith We forbid the Bishops to leaue their Churches and to trauell into other coasts And we commaund that in euery Prouince there be yerely kept a Synode where causes of faith and doubts concerning the Canons and administration of ecclesiasticall things as also touching Bishops Priests Deacons and other Clerks and Rulers of Monasteries and Moncks either for their liues or other things needing reformation shall be handled and in conuenient manner examined and corrected according to the sacred Canons and OVR imperial LAVVES Besides we command that all Bishoppes and Priests doe celebrate the sacred oblation and praiers in the holy Baptisme not secretly but with a loud voice so as the faithfull people may heare the religious Priests and Bishops knowing that if they neglect any of these things they shall answer for it in the dreadfull iudgement of the great GOD and our Sauiour Christ neither will wee vnderstanding thereof passe it ouer or leaue it vnpunished We also forbid the most religious Bishops Priests and all other Clerks to play at tables or to companie with such gamsters or to be present at spectacles If any of them offend in this point we command that he bee suspended from his function for three yeres Likewise we forbid all Bishops and Priests to separate any man from the communion til a cause be shewed for which the Canons wil it to be doone If any man separate an other from the communion against this law the partie that is greeued vniustly shal be absolued and receaued to the communion by an higher Priest And he that durst excommunicate vniustly shall be put from the communion by the Bishop that is next aboue him as long as it seemeth good to that superiour Moreouer if the Bishops of the same Synode haue any controuersie betweene them touching ether ecclesiastical right or causes first their Metropolitane with two other Bishops of the same Synod shall determine the matter And if either part find fault with that iudgment then shal the Patriarke of that Prouince heare the cause and define that which is consonant to the canons ecclesiastical and our lawes neither part hauing leaue to cōtradict his sentence If a Clerke or any other of what cause soeuer appeale from a Bishop first the Metropolitane shall iudge the matter according to the sacred canons
inter se habuerunt were this notwithstanding ioyned in communion pacem in vniuersa Ecclesia tum seruantes tum non seruantes retinuerunt and both sides kept the band of peace in the Catholike Church For the discrepant obseruation of fasting before Easter he saith the like Alij vnum sibi diem ieiunandum esse putant alij duos alij plures alij quadraginta horas Nihilo minus tamen omnes illi pacem inter se retinuerunt retinemus etiamnuÌ„ dissonantia ieiunij fidei concordiam commendat Some fast one daie some two dayes some more some fourtie houres and yet all these continued in peace among themselues and to this day we continue the same and our difference in fasâ—â—â—g commendeth our concord in faith Socrates hath a whole chapter purposely made to shew what diuersitie there was in the Church of Christ about Lent the Lordes Supper marying baptizing praying fasting and such like Ecclesiasticall obseruances and yet all those places and countries parts of the Catholik Church and communicant one with an other in Christian peace and vnitie Operosum molestum fuerit imò impossibile omnes ecclesiarum quae per ciuitates regiones sunt ritus conscribere It were an hard and laborious thing saith he yea an impossible to write al the different customes and manners of the Churches in euerie citie and countrie Qui eiusdem sunt fidei de ritibus inter se dissentiunt They that are of the same faith differ in their rites So that this is no breach of the Christian and Catholike communion which all the faithfull ought to keepe among themselues with their head the author and finisher of their faith Phi. It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders Theo. Why so Because your holy father can not marchandize the soules empt the purses of men as he was wont to do What Sectes Schismes disorders or heresies can there arise if we defend it lawfull for Princes to commaÌ„d for truth within their own Realmes Nay rather hath not the subiecting of Princes to the Popes pride wrought the vtter ruine and decaie of the West Church Where Rulers be many it is easie to finde some good and they wil resist that which is euill and reforme that which is amisse where one ruleth al if he fal as he quickly may he draweth the whole Church into the same danger and error with him Phi. But the successour of Peter can not erre and therefore the Church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ praied that it might not faile Theo. Proue that the Pope can not erre and we will graunt not onely this but all your religion besides to be true Phi. What you wil not Theo. The word is spoken accept the condition when you list Till you do we prefer Cyprians iudgement before yours Therefore deare brother saith he writing to Stephanus Bishop of Rome is there a plentifull number of Priestes in the church ioyned togither with the knot of mutuall concorde and bande of peace that if any of our companie make a breach and rent and wast the the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and pitifull Pastours reduce the Lordes sheepe to the flocke againe The number of Rulers in his opinon is no cause of sectes and dissentions but rather a remedie prouided in the Church against disorder and heresie Phi. It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and whatsoeuer borne out of the Realme forrainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs that there can be no iurisdiction ouer English-mens soules but proceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Theo. Your force is almost spent when you come to these frozen and woodden obiections Wee call those that were borne and liue out of the Realme forrainers What else should wee call them And such as pretend Peters keies to dispose crownes and remoue Princes from their seates ioyning rebellion with remission of sinnes we thinke them vsurpers and abusers of Ecclesiastical iurisdiction A maruelous ouersight in deed We might haue spared you some sharper and quicker termes but by these wee thought good to manifest to the world your iniurious and irreligious drift to be masters of earthly kingdomes by winding and turning Peters keies at your pleasure Phi. Your words exclude Christ his Apostles in as much as they were and be forrainers from hauing any iurisdiction ouer England Theo. It is pitie you can not cauil We striue for iudicial authoritie to depriue Princes you vrge vs with Apostolike power to preach the Gospell and remit sinnes Wee speake of that which is at this present you tell vs what was fifteene hundred yeares since We reason of States in earth you run to Saints in heauen We reiect the Bishop of Rome you wrangle with vs as though wee refused the sonne of God Doth not matter faile you when you flie for helpe to such vnsauory toies Phi. Your oth is so absurdly conceiued that though you ment not to exclude Christ and his Apostles yet in wordes you doe For if No forraine person Prelat State nor Potentate hath nor ought to haue any iurisdiction power superiority preeminence or authority ecclesiasticall or spiritual within this Realme of England surely neither Christ nor his Apostles because they were be forrainers haue or ought to haue any Theo. Not our speaking but your wresting and wrenching of our wordes is far fet most absurd For first where you auouch Christ himself to be a forrainer whoÌ„ we acknowledge to be the right inheritor owner of the whole worlde yea the mighty Lord king of heauen earth in gibing at vs you iest on his birth as if Christ were a forrainer to the Gentiles because he tooke flesh among the Iewes And though you might haue takâ—n some aduantage at his cradle yet you should haue remembred that the Creator is no forrainer to the worke of his handes as likewise the heade is not to the members nor God incarnate to the sonnes of men As for his Apostles in deede whiles they liued on earth they were forrainers but that their spirits now present with God raigning in blisse with Christ bee forrainers is a mad speech of yours no meaning of ours You must send vs word from Rhemes how soules can be French Spanish Scottish or English These with vs be distinctions of couÌ„tries not of souls after death til your new doctrine came wee tooke them to cease With a little helpe I thinke you will make vs some men soules and some women soules you be so skilfull in these conceites Againe might the soules in heauen be called or counted forrainers you must tell vs what ecclesiasticall power authoritie they now exercise on earth We do not affirme that forrainers neuer had any such power in England the Apostles had their commission from
How els should we cal her Phi. Not Gouernour but Prince or ruler For Bishops be Gouernours in their kind as well as Princes Theo. As though these words were not subiect to the same cauils with the former Bishops be Princes and Rulers in their kind as well as gouernours Your selues proue them to be rulers by S. Paul Obey your Rulers and againe The holy Ghost hath set you to rule the Church And where you say Rulers in S. Paul S. Hierom saith Parete Principibus vestris Obey you Princes And elswhere A Bishop must be irreproueable or he shall be no Prince of the Church Yea Gregorie doubteth not to call them Kings The holy preachers of the Church saith he be Kings And S. Hierom ventereth to call them Queenes The Kings and Queenes that nource the Church be plainly the Apostles and Apostolike men So that if we were disposed to play with wordes as you be we coulde driue you to seeke newe names not only for Kings Princes but also for Priests and Bishops S. Iohn saith of himselfe and of al the faithfull Christ hath made vs Kings and Priests vnto god his father and S. Peter confirmeth the same You are a Roiall Priesthood Eusebius writeth of Constantine that He called the seruants of God to Synods as a coÌ„mon Bishop appointed by God and sate among them and made himselfe partaker of their consultations and that in his hearing the Prince Named himselfe a Bishop with these wordes You are Bishops of things within the Church I am appointed by God a Bishop of those things that are without the Church And this he might well doe For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Bishoppe is in Greeke nothing else but an ouerseer or a superintendent which woord Hierom vseth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence our English woorde Priest seemeth to be deriued he sayth is nomen aetatis a name of age and signifieth an Elder and nothing in the Scriptures more common than to call Princes and rulers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elders as the seuentie Elders all the tribes of Israel and their Elders Princes and iudges the Princes and Elders of Sucoth the Elders of Bethulia and infinite other places where the woord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is vsed of the Septuagint Phi. We know you may confound all things if you list to dally with equiuocatioÌ„s but S. Paul hath expresly prohibited al good teachers strife of words Theo. You say well and since al your absurdities haue none other ground but the carping at our words or rather the manifest abusing and perâ—erting of the same what are your labours to requite you with Saint Paul but vaine brables of men corrupted in mind and depriued of trueth If the word gouernour were common to Bishops with Princes as you would haue it yet are their offices and regiments many wayes distinguished The gouernment of Princes is publike of Bishops is priuate of Princes is compulsiue of Bishops is persuasiue of Princes is Lordly with Rule of Bishops is brotherly with seruice of Princes is externall and ordereth the actions of the bodie of Bishops is internall and guideth the motions of the mind to bee short Princes haue the sworde with lawfull authoritie from GOD in his name to commaunde and prohibite rewarde and reuenge that which hee prescribeth and appointeth Bishoppes haue the woorde and Sacramentes committed to their charge with fidelitie and sinceritie to diuide and dispence the same in his Church according to his will And therefore though Bishoppes may bee called Gouernours in respect of the soule yet onely Princes bee Gouernours of Realmes Pastours haue flockes and Bishoppes haue Diocesses Realmes Dominions and Countries none haue but Princes and Magistrates and so the stile Gouernour of this Realme belongeth onely to the Prince and not to the Priest and importeth a publike and Princely regiment with the sworde which no Bishoppe by Gods Lawe may claime or vse Phi. Wee coulde graunt you with a good will that the Prince is the only Gouernour of this Realm but you adde as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall things or causes as temporall which is most absurde and direct against your owne distinction For if the Prince be the only Gouernour of all spirituall things and causes Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours of the word nor Sacramentes rites nor ceremonies praiers nor preachings of the Church but all must bee as please the Prince and so you fall into that shameful error againe from the which you seeke to cleare your selues Theo. Is it for weakenes of witte that you cannot or for rustines of hart that you will not see the defect of your argument Phi. The reason to my thinking is very sure For if only Princes be Gouernours in those cases Ergo not Priests Theo. A childish sophisme Your antecedent hath a special acception of the word Gouernour and your conclusion a generall Princes only bee Gouernours in things and causes ecclesiastical that is with the sword For so their vocation inferreth and your assertion witnesseth and so must you limite your antecedent before it will be good or agreeable to the Doctrine which wee teach oth which we take Then if you conclude Ergo Bishops be no gouernors in those things with the sword your illation is sound and sufficient for in all things and causes ecclesiasticall and spirituall Princes beare the sworde and not Bishops But if you inferre Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours in those things meaning thereby no dispencers guiders nor directors of those things your conclusion is larger than your antecedent which neuer maketh good consequent Phi. I see your meaning you will haue Princes only to be Gouernours of their Realmes dominions that is to beare the sworde within their Realmes and dominions in all thinges as well spirituall as temporall Theo. You see what wee say peruert it no more but confute it if you can Phi. That Princes and none els shoulde beare the sworde within their Dominions I meane not to confute I confesse it as well as you But what hath the temporall sword to do with ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes should meddle with common wealth matters and not busie themselues with Church causes Theo. Runne you backe againe to this issue that Princes may not meddle with causes ecclesiasticall Haue you forgotten how largely that is prooued before and sealed with your owne consent as irreuocable Phi. Meddle they may with some spirituall thinges and causes but when and as they shall bee required by the Priest Theo. Wee are not at this present to heare what you can imagine but to see what you can impugne in our othe as absurd And thus farre you agree with vs that Princes bee the onely Gouernours of their Realmes and dominions taking Gouernours for Magistrates which beare the sworde in Gods behalfe with publike power to compell or punish Phi. And what of this Theo. Thus much that if onely Princes beare the sworde and no man else by
the Church of her inheritaunce when your selues euery day if that speach bee not tolerable commit blasphemies innumerable If other examples doe not stay your wisedomes remember your vsual stile for the Pope is summus Pontifex Supreme Bishoppe summus and supremus being all one I meane not in sense onely but in speach also For they both bee superlatiues from the same comparatiue Superior and summus is nothing else but the very contraction of the woorde Supremus So that if Supreme Bishoppe with you doe not spoile Christ of his Priesthoode how can supreme Gouernour with vs lift him out of his kingdome he clayming expressely to bee chiefe Pastor and Bishoppe of our soules and renouncing in woordes and refusing in deedes to bee an earthly Prince and iudge in temporall thinges as the Scripture plainely recordeth And therefore first confesse and correct your owne ouersight if not error which taketh from Christ or at lest diuideth with him his speciall and peculiar title and then if we proue not that all men haue written and spoken in like sort as wee doe you shall find vs readie if that be your feare to retract euery syllable that is preiudicial to the sonne of GOD and to giue him as much honour as you can wish or wee deuise which when it is most is no more than hee well deserueth Phi. You content vs somewhat if you stand to this which you say that you giue Princes no Power against the faith nor Canons of the Church and that the gouernment which you acknowledge in them for spirituall things and causes is nothing els but their temporall and externall might and meanes to see the Rules and precepts of Christ and his Church receiued and settled in their Realmes and to punish the neglecters and resisters of the same And yet your termes were so large that your owne friendes reproued them as well as wee Theo. Neither misplace nor mistake my wordes Against the precepts of Christ or Canons of his Church wee giue Princes no power most true we doe not mary by the Canons of the Church we do not meane the Popes Bulles or decrees nor the partiall iudgements of such Councels as he hath assembled for his faction and framed to his fansies These bee late violent and wicked intrusions but the auncient and Godly Rules of Christes Church generally receaued of all good Christians and generally confirmed of all good Princes these be the Canons which Princes in dutie should not in equitie may not subuert if they wil be taken for faithful defenders and not â—or wilfull oppressours of Christes church For if in temporal things Princes may not dissolue the Lawes of their Progenitors nor frustrate the liberties of their people against reason and Iustice how much lesse ought they to violate the true Canons and euacuate the good orders and discipline of the Church concluded by so many Godly Fathers confirmed by so many worthie Princes and setled in so many sundrie places and ages Constantine saith Eusebius confirmed with his authoritie the Canons which the Bishops had agreed on in their Synodes lest the Rulers of his Prouinces should infringe them We decree saith Iustinian that the sacred ecclesiastical Canons concluded and confirmed in the fower first generall Councels haue equal force with our lawes For we keepe the Canons of the foresaid Councels as lawes And again It hath beene rightly said of Emperours before vs and of vs also that the sacred Canons ought to take place as lawes Athanasius obiected this to Constantius as a note of a tyrant that he did abrogate the Canons with violence and ordered all things against the Canons And Gregorie when it was written to him that the Emperour commanded an other to be chosen for the Bishop of Iustiniana within his prouince by reason of the sicknes which the said Bishop was troubled with in his head made this answere The Canons do no where commaund that a Bishop should loose his office for sicknesse And therefore it is against iustice if a Bishop fall sick that he should be depriued of his honor If the said reuereÌ„d Bishop for his own ease do require to be discharged of his Episcopal function when hee deliuereth that petition in writing it must bee graunted Otherwise I dare not doe it for feare of almightie God Whatseeuer the Emperour commaundeth is in his owne power Let him prouide as hee seeth cause onely let him not cause mee to bee partaker of this mans deposition That which hee doeth if it bee according to the Canons wee follow it if it be against the Canons we beare it with silence so long as wee may without sinne on our parts Phi. Where haue you this place Theo. Why doe you aske Phi. Because wee find the former words in our Decrees but not the later Theo. In deede you say trueth they were not for your diet they shewe that the Bishoppe of Rome was obedient to the Emperour in ecclesiasticall causes so long as the Prince did ioyne with the Canons and that hee was silent when the Prince went besides the Canons so farre foorth as hee might without sinne in himselfe And therefore the Collector of your Decrees left out the last wordes and changed the first by putting the Popes person in steede of the Princes For where Gregorie begynneth Scripsit mihi tua dilectio pijssimum Dominum nostrum reuerentissimo fratri meo Ioanni primae Iustinianae Episcopo pro egritudine capitis quam patitur praecipere succedi Your Louingnes wrate vnto mee that our most religious Lord commaundeth an other to be chosen in the place of our reuerende brother Iohn Bishoppe of Iustmiana because of the griefe of his head Your Lawe reporteth it thus Scripsit mihitua dilectio me reuerentissimo fratri Do. c. Your Louingnes wrate vnto me that I commaunded an other to bee chosen c. which is a detestable and inexcusable forgerie but my purpose is to shew that good Princes obserued and esteemed the Canons of the Church no lesse than their owne Lawes and tooke them for paternes to guyde their Edicts in causes ecclesiasticall as sayth Iustinian Our Lawes doe not disdaine to follow the sacred Rules or Canons Phi. It abateth the supreme power of Princes very much to bee bound to the Canons of the Church Theo. No more than it doeth in ciuill regiment to bee tied to the groundes of nature reason and equitie from which no wise nor sober Prince woulde wish to bee loosed And Princes bee Supreme not in respect that all thinges bee subiect to their willes which were plaine tyrannie not Christian authoritie but that all Persons within their Realmes are bounde to obey their Lawes or abide their paynes and themselues not depriueable by the Pope but reserued to the righteous and terrible iudge if they abuse their swordes to the maintaining of error and oppressing of innocents Phi. Yet this is cleare that the sworde which Princes beare is temporall
life Theo. The necessities of this life are nourishment and rayment the rest are superflâ—ities When wee haue foode and apparel sayth the Apostle let vs bee therewith content whatsoeuer is aboue is needlesse and noysome Our Sauiour willing his not to bee carefull for their life expresseth all thinges that bee needefull for this present life Take no thought saying what shall wee eate what shall wee drinke or wherewith shall wee bee clothed Your heauenly Father knoweth that you haue neede of these thinges These thinges wee neede and therefore are they promised other thinges are not promised and therefore we neede them not If Princes were first ordained of God for those thinges onely which are needefull to maintaine this temporall life for thinges superfluous are besides the promise and without the protection of GOD the power and charge of Princes shoulde consist in meates drinkes and apparell and Princes haue no farther care of their people than they haue of their houndes and Horses to see them well fedde and smoothe kept which is a very wicked and brutish opinion Phi. They are besides to maintaine peace and quietnes among their subiects Theo. You might haue ioyned godlines and honestie therewithall as S. Paul doeth and then had you done well I exhort sayth hee that prayers and supplications be made for Kings for all that are in authoritie that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie Prayers must bee made for kinges that they may discharge their duties according to Gods ordinance which is that their subiects by their helpe and meanes may leade an honest godly and quiet life godlinesse and honestie being the chiefest endes of our praiers and effectes of their powers For God hath not put the goodes landes bodies and liues of men into Princes handes to cloath their backes and fill their bellies but with praise to prouoke those that be willing to driue those that be not willing with punishments to imbrace pietie towards God sobrietie towardes themselues and charitie towardes their neighbours This you may learne by the regiment of euery priuate familie which is both a part and a paterne of the common-wealth Al parents and masters haue a farther charge ouer their children and seruantes than to see them defended froÌ„ hunger and colde A wicked father is hee that feedeth and cloatheth and nourâ—ereth not his children Ye fathers saith S. Paul bring vp your children in the instruction and information of the Lord. Come children saith Dauid harken vnto me I will teach you the feare of the Lord. Moses admonishing the whole people of the Iewes as it were speaking to euery particular maÌ„ Take heed saith he to thy selfe that thou forget not the thinges which thine eyes haue seene and that they depart not out of thine heart all the dayes of thy life but teach them thy sonnes and thy sonnes sonnes and so God himselfe said to Moses Gather mee the people togither and I will cause them to heare my words that they may learne to feare me all the dayes that they shall liue vpon the earth and that they may teach their children This diligence God coÌ„mended and rewarded in Abraham as the best part of a fathers duetie I know him saith God that hee will commaund his sonnes and his houshold after him that they keepe the waie of the Lord to do righteousnes and iudgement that the Lord may bring vpon Abraham that good which he hath spoken vnto him If priuate men be bound to traine vp their families in the feare of God and loue of vertue much more are Princes the publike fathers of their countries and exalted to farre greater and higher authoritie by Gods ordinance than fathers or masters I say much more are they in coÌ„science charged by calling licenced to frame their subiectes to the true seruice of God right obedience of his law which be thinges not temporal but spiritual This king Dauid protesteth and promiseth vnto God he will doe in his kingdom Him that priuilie slaundereth his neighbour will I destroy Mine eyes shall be to the faithfull of the Land that they may dwell with mee hee that walketh in a perfect way he shal serue me There shall no deceitful or proude person dwell within mine house hee that telleth lies shall not remaine in my sight Betimes will I destroy all the wicked of the Land that I may cut off al the workers of iniquitie from the citie of the Lord. This christian Princes as you heard before made not onely a part but the chiefest part of their duetie The true religion of God and honest conuersation euen of Priests themselues is our chiefest care saith Iustinian And so Valentinian Theodosius The search of true religion we finde to be the chiefest care of the Imperiall Maiestie With whom S. Austen agreeth defending Felix a catholike Bishop against the Donatists for that he was cleared at a temporall bar by the Princes commandement of such crimes as were obiected to him notwithstanding they were ecclesiasticall One of you saith a Bishop ought not to be cleared at the Proconsuls bar as though he sought it not rather the Emperour commanded that kinde of trial to be had to whose charge that matter did most pertaine and whereof the Prince was to render an account to God Of this mind were the Bishops of Rome themselues in former ages Eleutherius not long after Christ wrote to Lucius king of this realm amongst other things in this wise You are Gods Vicar in that kingdom The natioÌ„s people of Britanny are yours whom you ought to gather bring vnto concord peace vnto the faith law of Christ vnto his holy Church to nourish maintaine protect rule alwaies to defende from iniuries mischiefs froÌ„ enemies A king you shal be whiles you rule wel which except you do you shal be vnworthy the name of a king loose it which God forbid So Pope Iohn made answere to Pipin Charles Illos decet vocari Reges qui vigilaÌ„ter defendunt regunt ecclesiam Dei populum eius imitati Regem Psalmographum dicentem non habitabit in medio domus meae qui facit superbiam c. We must cal those kings which doe carefully defend rule the church of God his people after the example of king Dauid in his Psalmes a proude man shall not dwel in mine house This Gregory the great earnestly exhorted Edelberth vnto the first that was christened of the Saxon kings in this Land For this cause the almightie God bringeth good Princes to the regiment of his people that by them hee may bestow the gifts of his mercy vpon al that are vnder theÌ„ Therfore glorious son the grace which you haue obtained at Gods hands keepe with a careful minde hasten to extend the faith of Christ in the nations vnder you Increase the zeale of your vprightnes to
With you but not with the Church of God Phi. The church we say beleeueth many things which shee receiued by tradition and not by writing Theo. Your Church I know doth but the Church of Christ I say neuer did not doth Phi. Had the Church of Christ no traditions that were not written Theo. Rites and ceremonies she had but no points of fayth that were not written Phi. This is the ground of all your errors vppon this pretence you reiect the vnwritten verities of the church Theo. If this bee an error S. Paul himselfe was the first author of it and all the fathers of Christes Church with one consent auouch the same Phi. Neuer tell vs that tale Theo. Yeas we will tell it and proue it to you Phi. You can not Theo. We can and will S. Paul is short but sure Faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God Whence wee collect ergo faith is by the word of God and not without it nor besâ—des it You heard S. Basils opinion before It is an euident slyding from the faith a point of the greatest pride that may be either to depart from that which is written or to receiue that which is not written To that you may ioyne this conclusion of his If euery thing that is not of fayth be sinne as S. Paul affirmeth and fayth come by hearing and hearing by the woorde of God ergo whatsoeuer is without or besides the diuine Scriptures because it is not of fayth it is sinne Seekest thou for faith Emperour sayth Hilarie to Constantius Heare it not out of the late scroles but out of Gods bookes Heare I beseech thee that which is written of Christ lest vnder preteÌ„ce therof of things not written bee preached And in an other place pressing his aduersarie Thou sayth he which denyest things written what remaineth but that thou beleeue things vnwritten counting that for a passing absurditie which you now would establish as the surest way to discerne the trueth Euen so doth Hierom against Heluidius As wee denie not those thinges that are written so wee reiect vtterly those thinges which are not written For Our Lord sauiour speaketh to vs in the Scriptures of his Princes that is of his Apostles and Euangelists which were not which are in the church to this end that his Apostles excepted whatsoeuer thing besides should afterward bee sayd might bee cut off and not haue authoritie Tertullian speaking in the person of all christians We neede no farther search after the Gospel When once we beleeue wee desire nothing else to beleeue for this wee first beleeue that there is nothing besides the Gospel which wee ought to beleeue And refelling the heretike Hermogenes I adore saith he the fulnes of the scriptures Let Hermogenes shew me where this that he teacheth is written If it be not writteÌ„ let him feare the curse prouided for adders diminishers Yea saith Ambrose We iustly coÌ„demn al new things which Christ did not teach because to the faithful Christ is the way So then if Christ did not teach that which we teach eueÌ„ we our selues do iudge it to be detestable The rest are of the same mind The disposition of our saluation sayth Irineus we knew by none other than by those by whom the Gospel came vnto vs the which at first they preached by mouth but afterward by Gods appointmeÌ„t they did deliuer it to vs in writing that it should be the foundatioÌ„ and pillour of our faith It is necessary for vs saith Cyril to folow the diuine Scriptures in nothing to go from their prescription The mountaines of Israel whereon God promised to feede his flocke are saith Augustine the writers of the diuine Scriptures Feeding there you feede safely whatsoeuer you learne thence count it sauorie whatsoeuer is besides theÌ„ refuse it Therefore whether it be touching Christ or his Church or any matters els which concerneth our faith life I say not if we but as followeth in Paul if an angel from heauen teach any thing besides that which you haue receiued in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospel hold him accursed Isidorus as your owne Lawe produceth him saith A Prelate if he teach or bid any thing besides that which is euidently commaunded in the holy scriptures let him be taken for a false witnes to God a coÌ„mitter of sacrilege Neither Prelate Pope Councel nor Angel may be receiued or trusted in matters of fayth I say not against the Scriptures but not without or besides the scriptures If therefore you seeke to leade Princes vnto trueth you must guyde them thereto by the word of trueth otherwise you doe but deceiue them you doe not direct them King Dauid will teach you by what meanes himself was and all other godly Princes ought to be directed Thy word is a lanterne to my feete a light vnto my paths I haue sworne and wil performe it that I wil keepe thy righteous iudgements And God by Moses appointing his law to be the directioÌ„ of Princes coÌ„maundeth a copie thereof to be deliuered vnto the king sitting on his throne that he should reade therein all the daies of his life and learne to feare the Lord his God to keepe al the words of that lawe This charge which God giueth bindeth princes as well as others Whatsoeuer I commaund that shal you do thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought there from And Esay speaketh not of priuate persons only but of common-wealths also when he saith Shoulde not a people consult their God And shewing immediatly which way they might consult and aske counsell of God from the liuing sayth he to the dead to the law rather and the testimonie if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them They haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them is the surest way to saue Prince people froÌ„ the place of torment consequently the best direction for theÌ„ both Phi. The word of God is we doubt not the best direction for Princes priuate men if it be rightly vnderstood but Al heresies patch thence the pillowes which they lay vnder the elbowes of all flesh as S. Hierom sayth and They talke of scriptures perswade by Scriptures as Tertullian noteth And therefore the Scriptures being but dumble recordes that may be diuersly construed and easily wrested there must needes bee some iudge on earth that may bee personally pronounce which is the true meaning and right sense of the Scriptures before Princes may trust that direction Otherwise men may brech what blasphemies they will and pretend Scripture when they haue done as the Arrians Sabellians Macedonians and al other heretikes did and do Theo. That heretikes couet a shew of scriptures is a case so cleare that it needeth no words For howe coulde they treate of matters of faith
felowes the Louanists in their late Plantine edition haue mended the points made thē interrogatiue for very shame But how so euer you set the points certaine it is the Lorde prayed ioyntly for them all and that at this very supper as the 17. of S. Iohn witnesseth in as ample manner for all as for one I pray for them I pray not for the world Holy father preserue them in thy name whō thou hast giuen me keepe them from euill sanctifie them in thy trueth It is a greater grace to bee kept from euill and to bee sanctified in the trueth which Christ requested for all than to haue their fayth not fayle and to bee conuerted which hee promised vnto Peter You doe therefore very wickedly to teach the people that None other Apostle might chalenge any such speciall prerogatiue either of his office or Person as to bee stedfast in trueth without error The prayer was generall for them all by the iudgement of S. Augustine and were it not the prayer which our Sauiour made for them all and the promise which hee made vnto them all euen the same night that hee spake this are more effectual than this The prayer you haue heard the promise is If I depart not the comforter shall not come vnto you but if I depart I will send him vnto you And when that Spirit of trueth commeth hee shall leade you into all trueth To bee led into all trueth is a better assurance against error than to fall first and after to bee conuerted which is all that is promised vnto Peter in this place Phi. Saint Augustine also Christ praying for Peter prayed for the rest because in the Pastor and Prelate the people is corrected or commended Saint Ambrose writeth that Peter after his tentation was made Pastor of the Church because it was said to him thou being conuerted confirme thy brethren Theo. You might haue spared these authorities but that you must needes haue the Fathers names in your mouthes though they make nothing for you The words of S. Augustine which you cite are not found in the olde Printes nor in their copies but crept into some written bookes by the negligence and vnskilfulnesse of scribes and yet were they S. Augustines I see not what you gaine by them Peter is there called Praepositus that is preferred before the rest as also Praelatus doeth signifie both which wordes in the Fathers bee commonly applied to all Bishops import no singular prerogatiue that Peter should claime but the common charge which all Pastours haue And though the words which you quote be neither many nor materiall yet you mistake them For you say the people is corrected or commended where the Latine is Semper in praeposito populus aut corripitur aut laudatur the people is alwayes reproued or praised in their leader or Prelate S. Ambrose saith no more but that Petrus Ecclesiae praeponitur post quam à Diabolo tentatus est Peter receiueth charge of the church after he was tempted of the Diuell And by these wordes thou being conuerted confirme thy brethrē he saith The Lord doth signifie what it meaneth that he did after chose him to be sheepehearde of the Lordes flocke to wit that hee and all other sheepeheardes by his example should learne to beare with their weake brethren and vse that kindinesse and patience in restoring and confirming others which their Lord and master first shewed in suffering conuerting them And this Sainct Ambrose did well to make the chiefest point of a christian sheepeheard Phi. But S. Ambrose saith in the singular number Petrus ecclesiae praeponitur eum elegit Pastorem Dominici gregis Peter is set ouer the Church and Christ chose him to be Pastor of his flocke Sure you be singular men to quote such places and make such conclusions Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastour of the Lordes flocke ergo none but Peter Euen so you may reason The Gospell of the glorie of the blessed God is committed to mee saith Paul ergo to none but to Paul And againe I am the teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth ergo none but he Or when he saith to the Philippians It is giuen vnto you not onely to beleeue in Christ but also to suffer for Christ ergo it is giuen to none but to them If you play thus with Scriptures and fathers you may make mad worke in them both Phi. Peter was made Pastour of the flock Theo. And so were others as you heard out of Ambrose before The Lords flocke not only Peter receiued but we al with him Phi. He was set ouer the church The. And so are al Pastors Our Sauiour saith of teachers in generall Who then is a faithfull seruant wise whom his master hath set ouer his household to giue them meate in season S. Cyprian speaking of himselfe saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositum persequitur For this he persueth the ruler or ouerseer of the church S. Augustine saith Praepositi intelligendi sunt per quos ecclesia nunc gubernatur They must be taken for ouerseers of the church by whom the church is nowe gouerned And againe Sunt quidam Ecclesiae praepositi de quibus Paulus dicit sua quaerentes There are some ouerseers of the church of whom Paul saith they seeke their owne So that Praepositus and Pastor Ecclesiae bee not titles proper to Peter but stiles common to all Bishops and therefore by them you can inferre nothing But where all this while are your proofes that Peter could not erre which is the frame that you would fasten on these wordes Why proue you thinges superfluous and skip that which is most in question betwixt vs What father euer saide that these wordes of our Sauiour made Peter free from falling or erring From desperation irrepentance the Lords praier saued him recouered him when he was ready to perish from falling or erring hee was defended no more than the rest nay not so much They fled forsooke their master he presuming farther sped worse as the Lord fortold him the Gospel reporteth of him And were that proued which you neither offer nor are able to proue yet doth it not belong to the Bishop of Rome which is it that we sticke at For touching Peters person and office we can soone be intreated to thinke and speake the best And though we do not say as you do that truth was tied to his sleeue only yet are we of opinion that he and his fellow Disciples were guided into all truth as by whom the church was first to bee planted and from whome the faithfull were to receiue the word of truth the foundation of their faith And therefore we nothing doubt but as the writings of Peter Paul Iames Iohn Iude Matthew bee canonical Scriptures so the preaching not of Peter onely but of all the rest
of Rome coulde not erre which your selues dare not saie and yet you woulde wring it out of Cyprians wordes But God be thanked Sainct Paul hath preuented your wicked interprise Writing to the whole church of Rome and giuing them their due praise for their deuotion and zeale and entering at last into the reiection of the Iewes for their vnbeliefe hee warneth expresly the Romanes in these wordes Boast not thy selfe against the braunches and if thou boast thy selfe thou bearest not the roote but the roote thee Thou wilt say the braunches are broken off that I might bee graft in Well through infidelitie they are broken off thou standest by faith Be not high minded but feare For if God spared not the naturall braunches take heed lest he spare not thee Behold therefore the goodnes and seuerity of God toward them which haue fallen seueritie but towards thee goodnes if thou continue in his goodnes otherwise thou also shalt be cut off Whether the Apostle spake generally to the Gentiles and inclusiuely to the Romanes or namely to the Romanes and proportionablie to the rest it is all one to vs one of the twaine hee must needes Origen saith vppon these wordes of Paul I say to you Gentiles Now he plainely turneth his speech to the Gentiles but chiefly to those of the citie of Rome that beleeued S. Paul speaking to the Romanes no man may except the Romanes and they being included his admonition to them feare and beware least was vtterly superfluous if there coulde bee no daunger in them of swaruing from the faith and the condition implied otherwise if thou continue not and the commination annexed thou also shalt be cut off were both ridiculous and odious if it were not possible for them to fal or to be cut off Fight not therefore against the holy Ghost with broken reedes caught here and there out of the Fathers works Looke rather in time to this watchword which the apostle giueth you feare and take heede otherwise thou also shalt be cut off And marke his reason If the naturall braunches may be broken off much more the wild which were planted but in their steedes Phi. If that had beene the Apostles meaning doe you thinke the Fathers would haue gainesaide it Theo. I thinke they would not and I see they doe not and that maketh mee to interprete Cyprian in such sort as hee may agree with himselfe and not confront S. Paul Phi. His wordes do surely leane on our side Theo. They fit your humor and in that respect you be eger on them Otherwise I haue cleared Cyprian both of that speech of that intent And were you not vnshamefast wranglers you would perceiue that the ordinary vse of the phrase both in diuine and humane writinges doth acquite him of that opinion which you inforce vpon him But such is your profession you must go on as you haue begun Phi. If one alone had saide it we would not vrge it so often but S. Hierom hath likewise testified the same Know you that the Romane faith commended by the Apostles mouth will receiue no such deceites nor can be possibly changed though an Angell from heauen taught otherwise being fensed by S. Pauls authority Tom. 2. Apolog. aduers. Ruff. lib. 3. cap. 4. Theo. If S. Hierom say the same that Cyprian did he must be taken and vnderstood as Cyprian was and so you ease me of that labour Phi. He saith the same in effect but his words are more forcible Theo. That is your wilfulnesse in peruerting and racking the words of S. Hierom is more sensible For S. Hierom speaketh not one word of the persons that they shall neuer fall from the faith but auoucheth only that the doctrine which was first preached at Rome and then continued was so exact and perfect that an Angell from heauen might not bee heard against it And to this ende hee saide Scito Romanam fidem Apostolica voce laudatam istiusmodi praestigias non recipere etiamsi Angelus de coelo aâ—â—ter annunciet quam semel praedicatum est Pauli authoritate munitaÌ„ noÌ„ posse mutari Know you that the Romane faith commeÌ„ded by the Apostles voice receiueth no such delusions and that being armed with Pauls authority it may not bee changed if an Angell from hauen doe preach otherwise than once was preached Phi. You run againe to your former interpretation Non posse mutari it may not be changed in steede of it can not be changed Theo. Use which you will so you grant which I fully proued before that non posse doth vsually signifie as well that which is vnlawfull as that which is vnpossible Phi. I know non possum is vsed diuersely but how doth that answere S. Hierom Theo. You take hâ—lde of a word in Hierom which in all mens speech and writinges hath diuerse and sundrie significations by your owne confession and then you maruell why we doe not receiue the vntruest and vnlikeliest of them all for your pleasures without any farther proofe Non possum doth import that which is either vnpossible vnlawfull inconuenient or any waie impugnant to the ful persuasion and determination of our mindes as the places before alleadged doe manfestly declare and in all those accidentes our common speech is may be non possum I can not You would now by a text of Hieroms where he saith Romanam fidem non posse mutari etiam si Angelus de caelo c. The Romane faith may not or can not be charged though an Angel came from heauen infer that the Romanes vntill the worldes end can not possibly choose but abide in the same faith which was first deliuered them and that doe what they will to the contrarie they must be preserued in Christes trueth This is wee say a shamefull violence offered to Hieroms wordes against all learning against his meaning and against the spirit of God speaking in S. Paul First the wordes non posse mutari receiue both constructions a like that is either a change of the faith can neuer happen in the Romanes which is your sense or else their faith can not possibly bee changed without incurring infidelitie which is ours For it ceaseth to bee faith when once it is changed Next S. Hierom speaketh not of the persons but of the thing hee doth not say the Romanes can not change their mindes but the faith which was deliuered them in no wise may be chaunged And why Because it is the truth of God which neuer changeth Againe the authoritie of Paul writing to the Galathians which Hierom citeth doth not warrant that the Romanes shal not fall but onely that the faith once preached may not be changed though an Angell from heauen should attempt it especially since the Apostle commended the doctrine which they reserued to be the true christian faith What reason then haue you besides your parcial affectioÌ„ to the See of Rome to draw these words from their natiue sense
deponitur For heresie the Pope is ipso facto deposed and no inconuenience And to that ende hee alleadgeth Petrus de Palude saying Papa quando labitur in haeresin tunc â—o ipso est praecisus ab Ecclesia desinit esse caput The Pope when hee falleth into an heresie is presently cutte off from the Church and ceaseth to bee the heade of it So Gerson the Chauncellour of Paris Tam Papa quam Episcopus deuiabiles à fide The Pope may swarue from the fayth as well as an other Bishop The generall councell of Basill saith Saepe experti sumus legimus Papam errasse Wee haue often both found out by experience and reade that the Pope hath erred And againe Cum certum sit Papam errare posse For so much as it is certaine the Pope may erre Aeneas Syluius afterwarde Pius the seconde inueying against them that woulde not haue councels gathered without the Popes consent saith What remedie shall there bee if a sinnefull Pope trouble the Church if hee destroie soules if hee peruert the people with his euill example Si denique contraria fidei praedicet haereticisque dogmatibus imbuat subditos If he teach against the faith and infect those that be vnder him with hereticall opinions Cardinall Caietane and Pope Innocentius the fourth though they had good cause to fauour the See of Rome yet were they clearely resolued the Pope might erre and so were all the writers of your owne religion before this our age that euer I hearde of and euen at this day the sincerest of them dislike the vnshamefastnesse of your assertion Papa in fide errare potest vt melius sentientes tenent etiam ex hijs qui Papatui plurimum fauent Inter quos est Innocentius eius nominis quartus Pontifex in cap. 1. De summa Trinitate The Pope may erre in fayth as the truer opinion is euen of them that fauour the popedome verie much Amongest whome is Innocentius the fourth of that name Bishoppe of Rome writing vppon the first chapter De summa Trinitate Arboreus a Doctor of Paris and one of your chiefe Sorbonistes Papa in fide errare Potest Et tota mihi aberrare via videtur qui aliter sentit Assentantur sane Romano Pontifici qui faciunt cum immunem à lapsu haereseos schismatis The Pope may erre in fayth And he seemeth to mee to bee in foule errour that thinketh otherwise Surely they doe but flatter the Bishoppe of Rome that make him free from falling into heresie and schisme Erasmus pithily impugneth your inconsiderate follie If it bee true which some say that the Bishop of Rome can neuer erre iudicially what neede generall councels Why are men skilled in the lawes and learned in diuinitie sent for to councels if hee pronouncing can not erre To what purpose are so many Vniuersities troubled with handling questions of faith when truth may be had from his mouth Nay how commeth it to passe that the decrees of one Pope are repugnaÌ„t to the decrees of an other This perswasion of yours must needes be naught which so many of your owne side haue condemned before our dayes and the sobrest of your selues that haue written since our time doe vtterly disclaime And therefore aduise you whether you will faierly resigne this fansie or be conuinced by the verdict of your fellowes for men-pleasers and flatterers It is farre from a Catholike position which your owne church in the midst of darkenesse would neuer acknowledge and at this daie none defende but such hungrie ghestes as you be that gape for thankes and seeke to please Phi. You falsely charge vs with vnhonest respectes Theo. It is not my iudgement of you but theirs that otherwise haue no cause to thinke euill of you Phi. The reason that moueth vs so to say is for that we finde no Pope that euer erred Theo. You refuse Councels Fathers Stories and all that come in your way because you will not finde it Phi. We refuse not that is ancient or indifferent but onely such as we thinke partiall Theo. Then if there bee no cause why they should be partiall you will admit them for credible Phi. We will Theo. We expect no more What say you then to Clemens the first of that name as you make your account though wee thinke it a leude forgerie in his name Doe not your own Decrees report out of his decretall epistles that amongest christians al things ought to be common euen wiues and all Communis vita omnibus fratres necessaria est Communis enim vsus omnium quae sunt in hoc mundo omnibus esse hominibus debuit In omnibus autem sunt sine dubio coniuges A common life is necessarie for all men brethren the vse of all thinges that are in this world ought to be common to all men And in al things no doubt are wiues contained Phi. He meaneth not the carnall vse of women but their domestical seruice ought to be common Theo. So your gloze would make vp the breach but all in vaine For Socrates in Platoes common wealth whom your Clemens in this place citeth and calleth Graecorum sapientissimum the wisest of the Graecians rehearsing the prouerbe which Clemens here vseth inferreth that the coniunction of men women and procreation of children ought to bee common which is a monstruous and heinous errour And were that excused the the rest is a shamefull absurditie that all other thinges ought of necessitie to bee common amongst christians For the Scriptures do not exact that no maÌ„ should possesse any thing but onely that charitie should gladly distribute supply the wantes of such as neede Phi. Your selfe thinke this to be forged in Clementes name Theo. We do but you do not and therefore against you the instance is good The next is Tertullians testimonie who saith of the Bishop of Rome that he agnised the prophesies of Montanus and sent letters of communion and peace to the churches in Asia and Phrygia that were of that sect Phi. But hee reuoked those letters and ceased from that purpose as Tertullian also confesseth Theo. Hee reuoked them after they were sent and ceased from that which he first acknowledged Episcopum Romanum tunc agnoscentem prophetias Montani ex ea cognitione pacem Ecclesiis Asia Phrygiae inferentem falsa de ipsis prophetis adseuerando coegit literas pacis reuocare tam emissas a proposito recipiendorum schismatum concessare Praxeas the heretike forced the Bishoppe of Rome then agnising the Prophesies of Montanus and vppon good liking of them giuing peace to their Churches in Asia and Phrygia to reuoke his letters of coÌ„munion when they were sent and to cease from his purpose of embracing their doctrine Phi. Tertullian was of that sect himselfe and therefore no indifferent witnes Theo. Indifferent enough to report the fact though not to iudge
the Recordes that lay at Rome in your own keeping and the thing not spied Phi. A name is soone thrust in Theo. But whole sentences and whole leaues can not bee thrust in without stealing away the original laying a counterfeit in place thereof which was easie to be discerned Honorius cause is mentioned discussed in 26 seueral places of the councell two of his epistles repeated at large one of 9. skore 12. lines the other of threeskore and sixteene lynes which argue the whole councel to be forged or these branches concerning Honorius to be as sincere as the rest Phi. One Councell is soone corrupted Theo. But may you reiect your owne Recordes as forged and bring neither reason suspition nor probabilitie when by whom or how this was or could bee done Giue vs leaue to doe the like to the rest of your Romish Records where good cause leadeth vs and see what wil become of your Religion Phi. In deede this one we thinke to be forged Theo. A generall Councell repeating the matter which you sticke at more than twentie times and lying safe in your owne custodie you suspect to bee forged and vpon no ground but onely because it condemneth a Bishoppe of Rome for an heretike and yet you can not denie that but you must denie more Leo the second accursed Honorius his predecessour for the same heresie The seconde Councell of Nice which you greatly reuerence and call the seuenth generall Councell confesseth Honorius was condemned in the sixt generall Councell and themselues reiect him by name for an heretike whereto the Legates of Adrian then Bishoppe of Rome there present consented and subscribed Adrian the seconde in a Councell at Rome confessed that Honorius once Bishoppe of Rome was accused of heresie and condemned after his death by the consent of the Romane See and this his confession was read and allowed in the eight generall Councell of Constantinople If al these be forged that at Rome where your selues were the keepers how good cause haue we to suspect the rest of your euideÌ„ce which tend chiefly to vphold the Popes pride to encrease his gaine agree neither with theÌ„selues nor with the state of those times wherein they should be written nor with the best and approued stories of the Church Phi. Synce three generall Councels recken Honorius as condemned of heresie and specially the Decretall of Leo the second which the Bishoppes of Rome woulde soone haue disclaimed if it had beene suspected I dare not say that all these are forged for feare lest I ouerthrowe the credite of all Romane Recordes and therefore I thinke rather the Councell that first condemned him mistooke his meaning or that the letters which they sawe were written in his name by some euill willers of his both which cases are possible Theo. You mend this gappe and make a bigger You saue the Romane Libraries from corrupt Recordes and vpbrayde a generall councel with rash iudgement and lacke of vnderstanding for if they condemned Honorius not onely their brother but also their better as you take him and the head of the Church for an heretike and that after his death and either conceiued not the sense of his woordes or tooke not heede to the seale and subscription of his letters that those were Authentike they deseruâ—d not to bee counted Christians much lesse to goe for a lawfull and generall Councell And the Bishoppes of Rome that came after and confirmed the same when they might and should haue reprooued the Councell of indiscretion or malice and defended the innocencie of Honorius were not successours to him but conspiratours against him and so none of your shiftes are either sound or likely Howsoeuer you wrangle with the fact yet this is euident and without contradiction that three generall Councels eche after other were of opinion the Pope might liue and die an heritike and Agatho Leo Adrian the first and second all Bishoppes of Rome confessed thus much by their Decretals and yeelded thereto by their subscriptions Which if you graunt condemne or acquite Honorius of heresie at your pleasures Wee haue the full consent of the East and West Churches that the Bishoppe of Rome may erre which you at this present so stifly deny Phi. If one did erre the number is not so great Theo. If one did others may yet I haue named three that were condemned for heresie and Apostasie Marcellinus Liberius Honorius and moe I might that erred in like manner as Vigilius Anastatius Celestinus and others but I see you are determined to beleeue none that make against you in this point and therefore I were as good saue my labour as spend longer time with one that is past all sense Phi. If you prooue they erred I will not defende them Theo. But in reporting their sayings and doings you giue credite to none bee they neuer so indifferent and auncient Phi. Wee credite them if a greater number of writers doe not contradict them Theo. If certaine late fauourers of the Pope without trueth or shame doe gainesay the Stories that went before them thinke you the partiall and corrupt writinges of such men woorthie to bee taken against others that bee both elder and syncerer Phi. I euer goe with antiquitie and vniuersalitie Theo. But when you come to the push you care neither for fathers nor Councels Prouinciall nor generall if they crosse your affections or touch the Popes ambition There ancient writers liuing in the same time with Liberius affirme that he subscribed to the Arrians and Sozomene that wrate within 40. yeres of the deed doing saith no lesse you beleeue neither them nor your owne stories which with one consent followed that report till some in our age to make the Popes Tribunal infallible began not only to doubt but also to deny Liberius fact Two general Councels condemne Honorius for an heretike and the third auouâ—heth him to haue been condemned not without the knowledge of his successours the bishops of Rome that came after him You regard neither Popes nor Synods where they say that Honorius erred in other things where you thinke they make with you they shall be sacred and auncient fathers Councels as though you were not bound to yeeld vnto trueth but that onely were trueth which liked you Phi. Liberius was forced and Honorius deceiued with a likelyhood of trueth this is all you can get of these sacred and ancient fathers and Councels Theo. We need no more No man falleth from the faith but he is either forced or deceiued and yet this wee get besides which we most esteeme that these fathers and Councels were of opinion and saw by experience the Bishop of Rome did and might erre Yeeld to this and wee remit you the rest Phi. Not till I see what else you will bring You talke of Vigilius and Anastasius but I thinke more than you can proue Theo. Of Vigillius
neither can you of a promise which is common to all establish a priuate Tribunall for one man from the which the spirit of trueth shal not depart as you professe of the Popes Consistorie Phi. If he may erre how can he be iudge of al others Theo. You say wel since by the consent and confession of your own church foureteene hundred yeres after Christ he may erre we conclude he can not bee supreme iudge of faith nor Soueraigne directer of Princes in those cases Phi. Was our whole Church of that opinion so lately Theo. Shew euer any learned man of your side that sayde or helde otherwise Phi. Nay shewe you they held so Theo. I haue already shewed so much Phi. You haue named some priuate men that wrate so Theo. The strongest pillours of your Church Phi. But you say this opinion was generall Theo. If you consider how earnestly and openly this was asserted by the best and neuer contradicted by any no not by those that tooke vpon them to bee the chiefe Proctours and Patrones for the Pope your selfe will say it was generall and confessed on all sides Your owne Decrees that will not haue the Pope reprooued for any fault adde this exception Nisi deprehendatur a fide deuius vnlesse hee bee founde to swarue from the fayth The Bishoppes of Fraunce and Germanie gathered at Brixia and Mogunce against Gregorie the seuenth condemned him as The auncient disciple of the heretike Berengarius a vera fide exorbitantem and swaruing from the true fayth His owne Cardinals and Bishoppes that were at Rome made this profession against him Ad destruendas haereses nouiter ab Hildebrando inuentas consedimus We assembled to destroy the heresies lately deuised by Pope Hildebrand And in special wordes Hoc est decretum Hildebrandi in quo a Doctrina fide Catholica aberrauit This is Hildebrands decree in which hee erred from the Catholike doctrine and fayth Robert Grosseteste Bishoppe of Lincolne reuerenced of your Church for a Saint lying on his death proued the Pope not onely might bee but was an heretike by sundry reasons and by the very definition of heresie and for the possibilitie of the matter alleageth the Popes owne testimonie Item dicit Decretalis quod super tali vitio videlicet haeresi potest debet Papa accusari The Decretall sayth that for heresie the Pope may and ought to be accused But what speake I of one Bishop Six hundred Prelates an hundred foure and twentie Diuines and almost three hundred Lawyers with the whole Colledge of Cardinals in your generall Councell of Pisa deposed two Popes Gregorie the twelfth and Benedict the thirteenth as schismatikes and heretikes Your Councell of Constance where as you say were 4. Patriarkes 29. Cardinals 47. Archbishoppes 270. Bishops 564. Abbats and Doctours in all aboue nine hundred deposed the same Benedict persisting in his Popedom notwithstanding the former sentence as being schismaticum haereticum ac a fide deuium articuli fidei Vnam sanctam Catholicam Ecclesiam violatorem pertinacem notorium manifestum a schismatike and an heretike swaruing from the faith and a wilfull notorious manifest subuerter of the Article of our faith one holy Catholike Church And in the same Councel it was obiected to Iohn the 23. Quod dictus Iohannes Papa 23. saepe saepius coram diuersis Prelatis alijs honestis probis viris pertinaciter Diabolo suadente dixit asseruit dogmatizauit astruxit vitam eternam non esse quin imo dixit pertinaciter credidit animam hominis cum corpore humano mori extingui ad instar animalium brutorum dixÃt que mortuum semel esse in nouissimo die minimè resurrecturum contra articulum de resurrectione mortuorum That often and very often before diuers Prelates and other honest and approoued men hee sayd auouched vttered as his iudgement egerly defended that there is no life euerlasting yea moreouer hee sayde and resolutely beleeued that the soule of man dieth and perisheth with the bodie after the maner of other beasts and that hee which was once dead should not rise in the last day contrarie to the article of the resurrection of the dead Your generall councell of Basil which Germanie Fraunce Englande the Dukedome of Millan and many other Countries so greatly esteemed gaue the like iudgement not yet seuen skore seuen yeres agoe against Eugenius the 4. and iudicially pronounced him to bee schismaticum a fide deuium pertinacem haereticum a schismatike erring from the fayth and a stubburne heretike Lastly your diuines of Paris but last day resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him and if Peter did there can bee no question but his successours may since they claime from him and not before him If this bee not the generall consent of your owne Church I knowe not what is If it bee then by the full and cleare confession of your selues for 1400. yeeres the Pope might stray from the faith and become an heretike Phi. There is not one of your examples but may be replied to Theo. Graunt they might yet this is most sure which I conclude that they were al of this opinion the Pope coulde erre Phi. What if that opinion were not true Theo. That must you proue It is enough for mee to shewe that not onely the church of Christ in former ages but your owne Church euen vntil our age held this opinion of Popes that they could erre What reason you haue or can haue to impugne their opinion let the world iudge We thinke you within the compasse of Alfonsus censure if ye be not worse Phi. What if wee should graunt the Pope may erre as al men may That doeth not diminish his power Theo. A iudge must haue two thinges before hee bee competent namely skill to discerne that hee misse not the trueth and power to commaund that his iudgement may take place If he want either hee is no fit iudge Phi. You say right and both these the Pope hath in most ample maner Theo. He hath neither Erre he may and therefore no man is bound to his iudgement farther than it standeth with the word of truth and so farre the greatest Princes in the world are bound to the meanest man that God doth send For God is truth they that resist the truth resist God and the end of them al that resist is damnation which Princes shal not auoyde vnlesse they submit themselues to the hearing embracing and obeying of the truth And as hee may erre so hath hee no power to commaund Princes or others but only to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must may by vertue of his vocation Farther authority by violence to compel or by corporal and external meanes to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the lawe of God since that belongeth to the
it were done by forsaking threatning compelling or inuading him the Storie doeth not expresse neither may you suppose what you list without any proofe Had they assaulted him with armes it had beene as easie to haue slaine him there as to haue driuen him thence but no doubt Peter their Bishoppe kept them from that which Moses a conuert of the Saracenes not long before bitterly reprooued in Lucius Phi. You meane Moses the Moncke that Mauia the Queene of the Saracens required to haue for the Bishopppe of her Nation whose fayth the Bishoppe of Rome confirmed in the same letters with Peters election Theo. I doe Phil. What of him Theo. When hee was brought to Lucius to bee made Bishoppe hee sayde I thinke my selfe vnworthie of this function but if it bee profitable for my Countrie that I take it Lucius shall neuer lay handes on mee to make mee Bishoppe for his right hand is embrued with blood Lucius answering that he should not raile but first learne what religion he taught I aske not a reason sayth Moses of thy religion thy doings against thy brethren conuince what religion thou hast A christian doeth not strike doeth not slaunder doeth not fight The seruant of God may not fight But thy woorkes openly shewe themselues by those whome thou hast banished whom thou hast cast to bee deuoured of beasts and consumed with fire If Moses thus abhorred Lucius for fighting and striking what would hee haue sayd to Peter for bearing armes and rebelling if he had beene so good a warrier as you make him Phi. So did Atticus Bishop of Constantinople craue ayde of Theodosius the yonger against the king of the Persians that persecuted his Catholike subiects and was thereby forcibly depriued and his innocent subiects deliuered Theo. The christians of Persia being barbarously persecuted by Bararanes an Infidel and put as Theodorete sheweth to straunge and vnusuall torments fled their Countrie and sauing themselues within the Romane Dominion besought the Christian Emperour they might bee harboured within his land and not bee yeelded vnto the furie of their king The Persian presently sent Legates to haue them backe that were departed his Realme Atticus the Bishoppe of Constantinople opened their cause to the Emperour and laboured what he could for them Theodosius the Emperour woulde not deliuer them as being suppliants to him and no offendours against their king but only that they professed the Christian Religion and hauing besides iust cause to make warre vpon the Persians for that they spoiled his merchants and woulde not restore his Goldminers which they hired of him bid open battell to them and caused the king to be glad with peace and to cease his persecution against the Christians Here is nothing for your purpose vnlesse you say that subiects may rebel for Religion because straungers may bee harboured for religion which were a mad kind of conclusion The Persians asked not armes against their King though a Tyrant but refuge for themselues neither did they assault their Prince on the one side when the Romanes inuaded on the other but with praier expected what end God would giue Atticus was no subiect to the king of Persia and therefore whatsoeuer hee did against a straunger and an enemie is no president for subiects to do the like to their Princes and yet all that he did was this Atticus Episcopus supplicantes cupidé suscepit totus in eo erat vt pro viribus ipsis succurreret Imperatori Theodosio quae gererentur significauit Atticus the Bishoppe embraced their request for themselues with great good will and laboured what hee could to helpe them and signified their state to Theodosius the Emperour Theodosius was a lawfull magistrate and had other and those iust causes to warre vpon the Persian and in that hee refused to deliuer the profugient and innocent Christians to the slaughter hee had the Lawe of nature and nations for his defence And lastly the king of Persia was neither depriued of his kingdome as you falsely report nor his subiects discharged frō their obedience but a peace concluded wherin the King was contended to cease from pursuing the Christians All this you shall find not in the second booke as you quote but in the seuenth where Socrates describeth the occasion and conclusion of this Persian warre From him Nicephorus taketh his light and more than Socrates said before he neither doth nor could affirme Phi. So did holy Pope Leo the first perswade the Emperour called Leo also to take armes against the Tyraunt of Alexandria for the deliuerie of the oppressed Catholiques from him and the heretiques Eutichians who then threw downe Churches and Monasteries and did other great sacrileges Whose wordes for examples sake I will set downe O Emperour saith Sainct Leo if it be laudable for thee to inuade the heathens how much more glorious shall it bee to deliuer the Church of Alexandria from the heauie yoke of outragious heretiques by the calamitie of which Church all the Christians in the world are iniuried Theo. Leo was so holy that hee neuer taught any man to beare armes against his Prince and yet it did nothing hurt his holynes to pray the Emperour to pursue with due punishment the wicked vprore that was made in Alexandria by Timotheus an heretike that placing himselfe in the Bishoprike and killing Proterius the true Bishoppe at the font in the Church caused the carkas by some of his faction to bee drawen along the streetes in a rope and to bee so cutte and mangled that the very intrayles drayled vpon the stones and the rest of the bodie to bee burnt and the ashes scattered into the ayre That villanous and diuelish fact Leo the Bishoppe of Rome beseecheth Leo the Emperour with all seueritie to reuenge assuring him that it is as glorious a conquest before Christ to punish such outragious heretikes as to represse miscreantes and Infidels But howe this shoulde serue your turnes wee can not imagine Will you reason thus Leo the Bishoppe of Rome perswaded the Emperour to chastise some of his subiects that were heretikes and murderers Ergo the people may assault their Prince with armes Take heede left Timotheus heresie and furie reuiue in you again if you fal to liking such consequents Phi. In briefe so did S. Gregorie the great moue Genadius the Exarch to make warres specially against heretikes as a very glorious thing Theo. You speake truer than you are ware of In deede Gregorie the great wrate to Genadius the Exarch in the selfe same sense that Leo before did to Leo the Emperour which is that Magistrates ought to resist and punish the aduersaries of Christes Church as well as the troublers and disturbers of the Common-wealth neither is there any difference in their writings or meanings saue that Leo wrate to the Prince himselfe and Gregorie to his Deputie And since you be come
next foure hundreth yeeres you name vs one that was not depriued of his Empire but denyed his reuenues in Italie by the rebellion of the souldiers and Citizens of Rome Rauenna Venice other places against him Phi. The Greeke and Latine writers doe consent that this was Gregories act Zonaras sayth Gregorie which then ruled the church of olde Rome refusing the fellowship of the Bishoppe of newe Rome of all that were of his opinion wrapped them together with the Emperour in a Synodical excōmunication and stayed the tribute which til that time was paied to the Empire and made a league with the Germanes Vrspergensis sayth Gregorie the Pope of Rome prohibited any tribute to bee giuen to the Emperour out of the Citie of Rome or out of Italie Frisingensis hath the like Gregorie the Pope warning the Emperour often tymes by letters and finding him incorrigible perswaded Italie to reuolt from his Empire And so Sigebert Gregorie reprooued Leo the Emperour for his error and turned both the people of Rome and the tribute of the West partes from him Moe I coulde bring you but these are enough Theo. You speake truer than you are ware of The rebellion of the Italiās against Leo the thirde was like enough to be Pope Gregories act For the Bishops of Rome were then Malcontentes to see the Bishops of Constantinople liue in such wealth ease and honor and themselues neglected by the Greeke Emperours and afflicted dayly by the Lumbardes And therefore I thinke they were forwarde enough to kindle the people against their Prince vppon the least occasion that might fall out And that may be the meaning of those Greeke and Germane writers which you bring that the Bishop of Rome occasioned or secretly incouraged the rebellion of Italie against Leo But that he tooke vpon him in those dayes to be the deposer of Princes as now he doeth or that he openly shewed or pleaded his vniuersall and supreme power to dispose kingdomes which is the thing that you shoulde proue that I denie and therein your owne stories as well the elder as the later sort of them that otherwise be very partial will iustifie my speech Diaconus aliue in those dayes saieth Leo the Emperour tooke the images of Sainctes at Constantinople and burnt them and commaunded the Bishop of Rome if euer he looked to haue his fauour to do the like But the Bishop refused to doe it and all the souldiers of Rauenna and Venice resisted this precept with one consent and but that the Bishop of Rome prohibited them so to doe they had attempted to make an other Emperour ouer them Regino that liued 200. yeres before Sigebert Frisingēsis Vrspergensis or Zonaras saith the same Blondus a diligent searcher and reporter of antiquities where partiall affection doth not blinde him saith The Emperour dealt by faire meanes at first with the Bishop of Rome if hee woulde haue his fauour to pull downe and burne the images in all places of Italy as he had done in the East Upon this precept of the Emperour first the citizens of Reuenna then the people and souldiers of Venice brake into an open rebellion against the Emperour and his deputie the exarch and laboured to the Bishop of Rome and to other cities of Italie to abrogate the Empire of Constantinople and to chose one of Italy or Rome for their Emperour and the rebellion went so farre that reiecting Magistrates which the exarch had appointed euerie citie and euery towne beganne then first since the inclination of the Romane Empire to create and elect Magistrates of their owne which they called Dukes But Stephen the Bishop of Rome repressed that attempt of the Italians to choose a new Emperour because he hoped Leo would vppon better aduise hereafter forbeare such enormities Yet the rebellion of the people of Rome and of other persons in Italie went forwarde and euerie day increased against the Emperour Nauclerus agreeth with Blondus saue that hee maketh Gregorie the seconde then Bishoppe of Rome when Blondus nameth Stephen Platina telleth his tale this way Leo the Emperour the thirde of that name when hee coulde not haue his will at the Bishop of Rome proposed an edict that all men vnder the Romane Empire shoulde take out of their Temples the images of all the holie Martyres and Angels for auoiding of idolatrie as hee sayde and who so did not hee woulde accompt him for an open enimie Gregorie the seconde not onely obeyed not but also warned all the Catholikes so your adherentes call themselues though they be nothing lesse than Catholikes that they shoulde not fall into that errour for any feare or precept of Prince By the which exhortation the people of Italie were so animated that they lacked verie little of chosing themselues an other Emperour but Gregorie interposed himselfe to staie them by his authoritie from doing it Sabellicus adding a thirde cause why the people of Rome and Italie were sore greeued with the Emperour and with-helde their tribute and not long after diuided the Empire which was the continuall impugning of them and preuailing against them by the Lombardes without any helpe from the Graecians Leo sayth he prayed the Bishop of Rome friendly that following his example he would raze the images of Saints out of al the temples in Italie Wherin the Bishop not only would not gratifie the Prince but wrote vnto al the churches that they should continue their most ancient custome That procured Leo passing hatred amongst other Nations but chiefly among the Italiās insomuch that the people of Rome began to consult of the choise of a new Emperour within Italie and the heartes of all Italie were ioyned with them in that attempt and that consent of theirs had broken foorth into an open defection had not the Bishop of Rome enterposed his authoritie and restrained the fiercenesse of his citizens by mollifieng them and admonishing them to persist in their former duetie to the Emperour when as that cōspiracie had alreadie so preuailed that Marinus the ruler of the citie his son the president of Campania being slain by the people the Exarch likewise murdered at Rauenna the cities commons had chosen for themselues new Magistrates Aeneas Syluius euen when hee was Pope Pius the seconde speaking oft his vprore made against Leo the thirde saieth To this rebellion the Bishoppe of Rome did not consent hoping that Leo would be better aduised If the report of other Writers be not sufficient the letters of Gregory the 2. Gregory the 3. wil witnesse no lesse the one writing in the 7. yeare of Leo the other in the 23. which was the last yeare of the raigne and life of Leo the 3. where they call him not onely Emperour but most religious Lord which could not bee if for his impietie they long before had forsaken his obedience as Zonaras the Monke imagineth Gregorie the 2. endeth his letters
not or can not procure the Popes fauour For so the Bishoppes of Rome haue vsed their excommunications against Princes and others as the examples that followe will fully declare To make an ende first with Hildebrand if either the successe that GOD gaue him in his furious attempt or the iudgements of your best and syncerest Stories neere that tyme bee woorthie to bee regarded they condemne this act of Hildebrande as vniust and vngodly Rodolf whome the Pope and the Saxons set vp against his master lost his right hand in the fielde as hee sought to get the Crowne from him and when by reason of that and other woundes hee was readie to giue vp the ghost Vrspergensis reporteth of him that looking on the stumpe of his arme and fetching a deepe sigh hee sayde to the Bishoppes that were about him beholde this is the hande wherewith I sware alleagance to my Soueraigne Lorde Henrie and nowe I leaue you see both his kingdome and this present life you that made me aspire to his throne take you heede that you lead me right I followed your aduise The same yeere that Rodolf was slaine Hildebrand by reuelation from heauen as hee sayde foretolde that that very yeere the false king should die but his coniecture of the false King which hee interpreted to bee Henry deceiued him sayth Sigebert For Henry fighting a set battell with the Saxons Rodolf the false king and many of the Nobles of Saxonie were slaine If this were a reuelation from God as Gregorie pretended then by the foretelling and perfourming of this accident GOD himselfe pronounced him the false King whom the Pope erected and maintained against Henry the fourth If it were no reuelation from aboue but a consortion with spirites from beneath then was Gregorie no such Saint as you make him that had felowshippe with Diuels and his owne master betrayed and beguyled the frantike humour of his infernall disciple Foure yeares after Hildebrande him-selfe was forsaken of his owne people and by their consent depriued of his Popedome and hee faine to flie to the barbarous Normanes for refuge and there in banishment died Romani Imperatorem Henricum recipiunt in vrbe eorum iudicio Hildebrandus Papatu abdicatur The Romanes receiue Henrie Emperour into their citie and by their iudgement Hildebrand is depriued of the Popedome Vrspergensis confirmeth the same Vnde Romani commoti manus Regidederunt Hildebrandum vero Papam vnanimeter abdicarunt whereupon the Romanes being moued that the Pope would not come in the kings presence to haue the matter hearde submitted themselues to the king and with one consent abandoned Pope Hildebrand Who lying at the point of death as Sigebert founde written of him called vnto him of the twelue Cardinals whom hee loued aboue the rest and confessed to God S. Peter and the whole church that hee had greatly sinned in the Pastorall charge which was committed vnto him and that at the instinct of the diuell he had stirred hatred hart-burning amongest men Beno the Cardinall testifieth the same though some of your Romish writers stoutly auouch the contrary This was the successe of Hildebrande and his newe made king the one vppon the losse of his hande and ende of his life remembring his oth and repenting his treason the other seeking to displace the Prince was displaced him selfe and lost his Popedome whiles he laboured to set the Prince besides his throne As touching the fact Frisingensis saith this was the first onset that euer Bishop of Rome gaue to depriue the Emperour I reade and ouerreade saieth he the gestes of the Romane kings and Emperors and I neuer find any of them before this man excommunicated by the Bishop of Rome or depriued of his kingdom Sigebert wisely and truly giueth his iudgement of this and the like interprise To speake with the leaue of all good men this only nouelty I will not say heresie was not crept into the worlde before the daies of Hildebrand that Priestes should teach the people they owe no subiection to euil kinges and that although they haue sworne fidelitie vnto him yet they must yeelde him none neither may they bee counted periures for holding against the king but rather he that obeyeth the king is excommunicated he that rebelleth against the king is absolued frō the blemish of disloyalty periurie Gerochus a great champiō of Gregories is fain to say of him The Romanes vsurp to themselues a diuine honor they wil yeeld no reason of their doinges neither can they abide that any man should say vnto them why doe you so They answere as the Poete writeth so I will and commande Let my will stand for reason Vrspergensis sayeth of the Synode at Mentz where in the presence of the Romane Legates the Bishops that rebelled with Hildebrand against the Emperour were deposed Ibi communi consensu consilio constituta est pax Dei There by common consent and counsell the peace of God was established which concludeth Gregorie to be the author of a diuelish dissention against the Emperour Phi. Wee care for none of these that speake euill of Gregories doing so long as we haue a greater number of stories to commend him Theo. And wee hauing the true reportes of these that liued in the same age with him which neither you nor the rest of your Romish faction can disproue litle regard what men that came after and were more desirous to please the Pope than to write the truth haue published in their stories You nor all the writers you haue shall euer be able to refell the assertions of Sigebert Frisingensis that Hildebrād was the first Bishoppe of Rome which attempted to depriue Princes of their Crownes and that this noueltie or rather heresie was neuer hearde of before Howe lawfull then it was which for a thowsande yeares the church of Rome neuer durst aduenture till Gregorie the seuenth first presumed to doe it leaning rather to wicked and seditious policie than to christian and confessed authoritie the simple may soone discerne or if they looke to the end they shall see the reward that is consequent to all rebellions A good instruction sayeth that auncient reporter of Henries life was giuen to the worlde that no man shoulde rise against his master The right hand of Rodolph cut off shewed a most iust punishment of periurie in that he feared not to violate his fidelitie sworne to the king his Soueraigne and as though other woundes had not beene sufficient to bring him to his death that part also was punished that by the plague the fault might bee perceiued Phi. If you stand on successe Henrie him-selfe was lifted at last out of his kingdome by his owne sonne Theo. Was it not wickednesse enough to arme the subiectes against their Prince to set the sonne to impugne the father but you must also crake of it The way that Hildebrand beganne
against the Emperor as if he had bin a Turke or a Saracene Philand Did not Frederike rather play the Turke with such as fought against him when he cut their heades in fower parts and laide them crossewise on their shoulders and with hoat Irons burnt a crosse in their foreheads whose liues he spared and caused the Clergie mens crownes to bee cut square to the very sculles What Turke or Saracene euer shewed like crueltie The. Al executions not in warre onely but in peace also seeme cruell if you looke to the punishments and not to the offences Phi. What was their offence Theo. They rebelled against him for the Popes pleasure whom by Gods Lawe they shoulde haue honoured and obeyed as their Soueraigne Lord and lawfull Prince and not therwith content they take vp the crosse against him in their badges and banners as if it had beene against a Turke or an Infidel If subiects so farre forget their dueties as to vse their Princes like Infidels because the Pope disfauoureth theÌ„ why should not princes forget their clemencie reward rebels and enemies according to their deserts It was therefore more enormous for the Pope to proclaime the crosse against a Christian Prince though his aduersarie for some priuate respectes as hee doeth against the Turke than for the Prince to inflict some such punishment as should make them repent their follies Phi. Frederike impugning the Pope with all his might why shoulde not the Pope such him-selfe the best way hee coulde Theo. And the Pope bringing rebels into the fielde against the Prince as it had beene against an Infidel why shoulde not the Prince teach them to beware howe they vsed the crosse against Christian Magistrates which was deuised against Turkes and Saracenes Phi. The Prince himselfe was in all the fault Theo. Because he woulde not suffer the Pope to ride on his necke as hee had done on his graundfathers and the rebellious Cities of Lombardie to shut him cleane out of Italie For what other cause had Gregorie the ninth againe to excommunicate and depose Frederike after hee had shewed himselfe so desirous of peace that hee paide a huge heape of golde to content the Popes ambitious spirite What one iniurie done to the Church of Rome can your Italian Sories iustly charge him with after his first absolution If you thinke your holy father may turne and wynd Princes like dishcloutes and curse them and depose them for what causes he lyst then Frederike was in some fault for that hee would not graunt peace to the Cities of Italie which rebelled against him at the Popes motion but if that bee madde diuinitie as in deede it is the Pope himselfe was not wel aduised first to set the subiects vp in rebellion against their Prince and next to depriue the Prince for offering to represse them that resisted him Shewe vs therfore what offence it was against the Popes holynes for the prince to compel his subiects to obedience by force of armes or else wee must conclude your holy father did the prince open wicked wrong to thunder his censures against him for seeking his own by those meanes which God hath allowed vnto magistrats Phi. The Emperour hired some to rebel in Rome against the Pope Theo. Your Italian writers would faine find holes in Frederiks coate if they could tel howe but their tales hang not together Platina runneth one way Blondus an other and Antoninus a thirde Platina sayth that Peter Fregepanes taking part with the Emperour kept the Pope out of Rome and made him decline to Viterbium as hee was going with an armie against the Emperour whome hee vnderstoode to bee within Italie and to oppugne the confederate Cities So that by Platinaes confession the Pope was in armes against the Emperour afore the fautors of Frederike offered him any violence Blondus a deadly persuer of Frederike with his pen reporteth this resistance made by Peter Fregepanes before the Emperor entered Italie addeth as his maner is of meere spite that the Prince had hired him with mony so to doe Antoninus as Nauclerus alleageth him writeth that Frederike hearing the cities of Lombardie Millan Bononia and many others of Romandiola to bee fallen from him and turned to the deuotion of the Church went against them with a great armie And the Citizens of Millan with al their strength and the Popes Legates and the whole confederacie of Lombardie which did cleaue to the Church fought a fielde with the Emperour in a place called New court and the Millanoes with their adherents after a sore conflict were ouerthrowen many of theÌ„ being slaine many taken prisoners with their Carroch where the Ruler of Millan being the sonne of the Duke of Venice and sundrie other Noble men of Lombardie were taken and sent into Apulia the Prince causing the Dukes sonne to bee hanged on a tower by the Seas side the rest to be executed some one way some an other This Florentine conâ—esseth the Popes Legates were in the battayle that was fought with Frederike at his first entrance into Italie and that the very original of the warre was the defection of the Lombardes from the Empire to ioyne with the Pope or as he speaketh with the Church which in deede was the only strife betweene the Pope and the Prince whatsoeuer Blondus others in hatred of Frederike do surmise Uiew now this quarrell tel vs whether Frederike did more than a Christian Prince might doe or whether the Pope rather did not wickedly nourish the conspiracie that the Lombardes made with Adrian the fourth against Frederike the first to driue the Emperour cleane out of Italie which was the point that the Pope pushed at all this while Phi. The Pope required nothing at his hands but the preseruation of that league which his graund-father made at Constans and his father during his life had kept inuiolable Theo. That peace included none but Frederike the first and Henrie his sonne it extended not to their heires and aftercommers as appeareth by the othe of fidelitie which the confederate cities tooke to Frederike then Emperour and king Henrie his sonne no farther and therfore that peace being expired by the death of his father the Prince was at libertie to doe as he sawe cause Phi. But the Pope sought the continuance of that peace Theo. And the Prince perceiuing the Popes fetch in time to exclude the Emperour cleane out of Italie by the renuing of that peace would not assent to it but came with a mind resolued to bring the Lombardes to their former subiectioÌ„ What wrong was this in Frederike Phi. It was hard dealing Theo. None at all And considering the Popes drift to be free from the Emperors force that he might with more safetie quarrel with him when he lysted and depriue him at his pleasure without daunger it was necessarie for the Prince to settle his state keepe his right in Italie it should otherwise
not be possible for him and the Princes that succeeded him to represse the Popes insolencie which beganne to increase apace This was the true cause why Gregorie the 9. set himselfe against Frederike the second after his first absolution which cost so many thousands what soeuer the Italian writers do imagine in hatred of Frederike whom they misliked as well for persuing the Pope as for spoyling and wasting their natiue Countrie Phi. Did hee not well deserue their hatred that ranged ouer all Italie with incredible cruelty sacked their cities filled euery towne village familie with mortal discord and dissention banished and murdered Bishoppes imprisoned the Cardinals Prelats as they were comming to the Councel so pursued inclosed the Pope that he died for very griefe of heart as Platina writeth Theo. Will you kindle a fire and then looke it should not burne What other fruits of warre coulde you expect but these or worse You made leagues to bereaue him of his right you caused his subiects to meete him in the field you accursed his person and depriued him of his Empire you came out in armes against him as you would against a Turk or an Infidel you did what you could to requite him his with like rage and violence when you could not be euen with him you thought it best to complaine of his crueltie But you loose your labour For warres are iudged by their causes and not by their consequents If Frederikes cause were good as the persuite of his right demand of obedience within the Territories of his Empire could not be euil thē your rebellions confederatiōs excōmunications depriuations such like actions to resist him defraud him or oppresse him were al wrongful wicked and his reuenge of your conspiracies treacheries though sharp and seuere was lawful as the cause stood needful Phi. No Prince euer delt so badlie with the Church of Rome as Frederike did Theo. No Prince was euer prouoked with halfe the iniuries with the which he was He was foure seueral times solemnly deposed by the bishops of Rome once by Honorius twise by Gregorie lastly by Innocentius the 4. his good friend whiles he was a Cardinal but his capital enimie when hee came to bee Pope Phi. It skilleth not how often it was done so long as it was done for causes vrgent important Theo. If the Pope had any such power as he hath not the causes must be iust and true which these were not Phi. Yes that they were And though the rest did not so plainely expresse thē which maketh you to carp at them yet Innocentius the 4. layeth his downe in writing which are extant to this day Theo. You say trueth The censure of Innocentius against Frederike the second is extant in your Decretals and foure causes of his deposition there remembred Phi. And those no lesse than periurie sacrilege heresie iniurie and oppression of the Church of Rome The. If it be enough for you to obiect what you list you may soone condemne whom you please We heare your holy father in his magnificence charge the Emperour with these foure things but I winne it woulde trouble him or you to prooue them Hee committed periurie the Pope sayth in his iudiciall sentence by rashly breaking the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire If the trueth were well tried this periurie lighteth on the Pope and not on the Prince For Howe coulde the Popes Legates be in the field against the Prince to assist his rebels and not breake the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire Is the Popes power so infinite that he can make right in the Prince to be periurie and warre in him-selfe to bee peace The taking and deteyning of Cardinals and Prelates was the sacrilege which in this place is obiected to the Prince but when you proue that Prelats and Cardinals be no subiectes and that they may lawfully take armes against Princes and yet no Prince must lay handes on them then you may chaunce to haue an action of wrongful detynue against the Emperour but not of sacrilege It is a point of your popish pride to make it sacrilege for a lawfull magistrate to restraine your parish Priestes of Rome from their seditious intens practises What are your Cardinals by Gods Law more than other Clergie men or why may not the Prince both represse them and punish them if they disturbe his state Phi. They were not his subiects Theo. Then were they his enemies since they came armed and presumed with their shippes to encounter his why should he not sease them as his prisoners Phi. They came to keepe a Councel being thereto called by the Popes authoritie Theo. To call Councels was the Emperours right and not the Popes and this conuenticle was called to oppresse the Emperour Why therefore might hee not preuent it and disperse it especially when straungers offered to passe his dominion by plain force without his leaue Heresie was the third crime for which the Pope suspected him Wherin if a mortall enemie may be both accursed and iudge and proceede vpon no better ground than suspition you may quickly condemne any man of heresie Princes haue warme offices if they shal lose their Crownes as soone as the Pope lysteth to suspect them of heresie The fourth cause is more foolish than any of the former The prince forsoothe forced his subiects in Sicilie to aguise him and obey him as their lawful prince notwithstanding the Bishoppe of Rome had deposed him and the persons that would not hee banished and diuersly punished This in deede was not for your profite but this was nothing against his dutie Ph. He forced them to impugne the Church of Rome whose vassalles they were Theo. The Church of Rome had a yeerely pension out of Sicilie which is here specified more the Pope could not claim and that pensiō was first yeelded by those that vsurped the kingdome of Sicilie against the Empire For Roger of Normanie whē Lotharius the Emperor had chased him out of Apulia Campania taken those countries from him intended the like for Calabria Sicilie but that he was called away by suddain occasions died before he could returne grew to a secret compact with the bishop of Rome to hold the kingdome of Sicilie which the Emperour claymed as from the Church of Rome by a yeerely recognisance After the death of Lotharius Conradus the next Emperour was so troubled first with rebellion at home then with an expedition into Syria that he had no leasure to thinke of Sicilie Against Frederike the first who succeeded Conrade in the Empire did William of Sicilie nephew to this Roger for his sonne raigned not long conspire with the cities of Lombardie and the Bishoppe of Rome to keepe the Germane Emperour aloofe from Italie and so long they striued hauing
hee did vppon conference had with the best learned that were in his age When it was knowen in Germanie what Pope Iohn had decreed Ludouike sayth Auentine consulted the best Lawyers and skilfullest diuines that were in Italie Germanie or France especially the doctors of both lawes and diuines of Bononia and Paris They all wrote back that the actes and decrees of pope Iohn against the Emperour were repugnant to Christian simplicitie and the heauenly Scriptures The men of note and such as wrote against the Pope for this inordinate presumption were Marsilius Patauinus Iohannes Gandauus Andreas Laudensis Vlricus Haugenor Luitpoldus de Babenburg Dante 's Alligerius Occam Bergomensis Michael Caesenas Phi. What Recken you these The most of them were condemned by the Church of Rome for heretiks Theo. They were condemned by the Pope for speaking truth Marsilius booke is extant intituled The defender of peace What error can you charge him with but this that hee wrote against the insufferable pride and ambition of the Pope Dants error for the which he was condemned your friendes affirme to be this for that in his booke of the Monarchie he saide The Romane Empire had no dependance of the Pope in temporall things but only of God Occam the Minorite pursued that argument so farre that he brought the Popes power and his Prelates touching their tēporal dominiō to nothing These were their errors for y◠which the Church of Rome otherwise called the Pope and his Cardinals condemned these learned and innocent men With as good reason you might haue condemned christ and his Apostles for the same causes S. Paul auoucheth the one There is no power but of God and Christ himselfe commaunded the other Kings of nations beare temporall rule You shall not doe so Phi. They held other errors Theo. Euen such an other For this was against the state and pride of Prelates and that touched their cofers and treasures which indeede were their Goddes The Poore Franciscanes beganne to dispute that it was a signe of more perfection and a neerer resemblance to the life which Christ and his Apostles ledde on earth for clergie men to renounce the world and possesse nothing of their owne rather than to nestle themselues i◠the sweetest and richest seates of christendome and t◠heape vp mammon and wealth in such abundance that they were able not only to beard Princes in their Palaces but also shoulder them in the field The ground of their opinion they tooke from your canon Law and your holy father himselfe in erecting the Rule of Frier Frauncis could confesse as much mary when the Emperour in hatred of the Popes hauftines and greedines cast some fauour to the Franciscanes the Pope to match the Prince gaue forth an edict and made it heresie to say that Christ his Apostles possessed nothing in this world which because the Friers impugned in their schooles and sermons the Pope cōdemned them and all their aiders and abetters whereof Lodouike was one for heretikes This is that other heresie for the which Micheal Cesenas Occam and other Franciscanes and Lodouike the Emperour as a Patrone of theirs were impeached which Platina thinketh was scant aduisedly doone by the Pope and his counsellers Pope Iohn saith he set foorth a Decree wherein he declared them to be rebels to the Church of Rome heretikes which affirmed that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne This decree doth scant accord with the sacred Scripture which testifieth in many places that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne Thus your holy father to spite the prince and to reuenge such as opened their mouthes at his sumpteousnes and furiousnes made it heresie to commend humilitie and pouertie Philand That Christ and his Disciples did possesse nothing neither in priuate nor in common this was their error and not as you report it Theo. In deede it is worth the noting howe finely your Holie Father did circumuent them For where they ment that Christ and his Apostles lefte the worlde to follow their vocation and woulde after possesse nothing superfluous neither in priuate nor common but helde themselues satisfied with apparell and foode such as the goodnesse of GOD by the almes of other or by their owne industrie not slacking their function did prouide for them the Bishope of Rome hauing alreadie gotten a good part of the Empire into his hands and daily deuising newe quarels to get more and besides oppressing al Christian Realmes with intollerable taxes and paiments for the maintaining of his warres and furnishing of his other expences which were both needeles and excessiue and knowing by this vrging of christs and his Apostles pouertie which the friers began euerie where to publish how vnlike he should appeare to S. Peter whose successour hee would seem to be peruerted the wordes and sense of the poore friers as if they had taught that the diete and raiment which Christ and his Apostles vsed had not beene their own but wrongfully taken and vniustly withheld from others that were the right owners and with this shifte made it heresie and blasphemie to say that Christ had nothing of his own where the friers were neuer so madde to defend that Christ and his Apostles had no right nor proprietie to the clothes which they ware and meates which they vsed but they rather detested the monstruous wealth and riote of Monckes and Bishops which pretending to forsake the worlde and followe Christ heaped greater riches and wallowed in oftner pleasures than any secular persons which soare when the wretched friers began to touch they were condemned and burned for heretikes These were the principal grifes against Lodouike which the Pope and the Cardinals could neuer digest I meane his resisting their pride and misliking their wealth for these causes when he offered reconciliation and satisfaction that the Christian world might haue rest from those domesticall warres and miseries the Pope would receiue none but on these conditions that the Prince shoulde confesse him selfe guiltie of al those errors and heresies that were laide to his charge that he should resigne the Empire and not resume it without the Popes leaue that he should put himselfe his Children and his goods into the Popes hands to be done withal as should please the Pope Such was the mildnesse of this Romish Sainct that his hart could not be satisfied but with the vtter destruction of the Emperour and his children which when the Princes and Bishops of Germanie perceiued they signified their generall determination to Lodouicke in these wordes Most gratious Lord and Emperour the Princes electours and other the faithfull of your Empire perusing the articles of your submission which the Pope requireth and resteth on with one consent haue decreed them to be conceiued to the subuersion and ouerthrow of the Empire so that neither you nor they by reason of the
should bee worthier And for the execution of this sentence the Pope wrote to Philip the most mightie king of Fraunce that in the remission of all his sinnes hee should vndertake this matter and after the expulsion of king Iohn hee and his heires for euer should bee rightfull â— owners of the kingdom of England He wrote likewise to al the Nobles Captaines soldiers of diuerse Nations that they should crossigne themselues to the deposing of the king of England and following the king of Fraunce their leader in this viage reuenge the iniurie of the vniuersall church Thus your holy father set kinges togither by the eares for the remissâ—on of their sinnes and turned the warfare that was prouided against the Turke â—o pursue his priuate quarels with christian Princes like the Prince of darkenesse giueth kingdoms that bee none of his to them and their heires foreuer And your blessed Bishops of Canterburie London and Elie that first made sute at Rome to haue this impietie decreed against their Prince in their owne persons to shew their christian and obedient dispositions plied the king of France other Potentates to hasten them with al hostilitie towards this land and would needes be both the messengers and ringleaders in that action The next yeare Stephen of Canterburie William of London and Elias of Elie returned from the court of Rome gathering a Councel on the other side of the Sea solemnly published the iudgement that was giuen against the king of England in the presence of the French king and his Bishops and his clergie and communaltie That done they inioyned the king of France and all the rest on the behalfe of the Pope for the remission of their sinnes that they all ioyning togither shoulde inuade the Realme of England in hostile manner and thrust king Iohn from his throne and substitute a worthier by the Apostolike authoritie It was not enough for them vnnaturally to procure this pestilent inuasion against their prince but they themselues must assist it with all their might and be the chiefe doers in it least ages after them should be ignorant how zealous they were for their * backes and bellies against their lawful and soueraigne Magistrate Phi. Being deposed he was no Magistrate Theo. When you * proue the Pope may depose Princes then pronounce king Iohn no Magistrate till you so doe giue vs leaue to tell you that this was a cursed presumption in the Pope and a more cursed rebellion in the Bishops Phi. The Realme of France you see tooke the offer and thereby confessed the Pope might dispose Princes Theo. A kingdome will make men doe much The king of Fraunce was led thereto not with religion but with ambition to get the crowne of England for Lodouike his sonne Where you see the desire which Princes had to inlarge their dominions made them regard the Popes censures against their neighbours which otherwise in themselues they did mightily despise as appeareth by that which fel out not long after betweene Philip the Faire and Boniface the eight Where the king of Fraunce resolutely withstood the Pope with all his interdictions and depositions and vsed his person in the end very coursely as I before haue touched in place where vppon occasion Princes to serue their turnes and to be reuenged of their enimies haue oftentimes backed and inforced the Popes iudiciall sentence against others which corrupt affection to man the Popes processe when it made for their purpose god hath punished in them by making him their master whom for lucre they serued as long as they gained By the enuie and enmity of Princes one against an other not by the lawes of God or examples of Christs church hath the Pope gotten the mastery of all Princes and so long as they wil inuade ech other at his teasing they shall neuer be free from his yoke By their helpe he became of a Bishop vnder them to be a Prince with them and by their dissentions of a Prince with them he is now Lord ouer them Take king Iohn for a paterne Had not the French king in hatred of king Iohn and hope of the crowne bin willing to heare of this match and wagered his men and mony for that prize the king of England had easily forced the Pope to some reasonable order But nowe seeing the whole Realme of Fraunce was in armes against him and his owne Lande likely to bee diuided within it selfe what maruell if he accepted rather any conditions at the Popes hands thaÌ„ he would suffer strangers that gaped after his kingdom to deuoure it Phi. Hee did wisely to submit himselfe hee had otherwise lost both rule life Theo. The Pope did as wickedly not to content himselfe with the kings submission and restitution of all that was detained but with a fine deuise to circumuent both parts and to get the kingdom for himselfe and his successors which was promised before to the French king and his heires Such cunning your holy father hath to set others to beat the bushe whiles hee doeth catch the birdes The king of Fraunce was led in a string to muster his men to rigge his shippes to bestow aboue threescore thowsande poundes for the preparation of the warre and was tolde hee shoulde haue for his labour pardon of all his sinnes forsooth and the crowne of England to him and to his for euer without faile when al was in readinesse and they waited nothing now but the French kings comming to go with the armie the Popes Legate stepped ouer before and shewed king Iohn what a power was leuied against him and how many of his own Nobles had purposed to forsake him and wanne him rather to holde his kingdome in fee farme of the Bishop of Rome for an easie rent than to leaue it a pray to the French king his people who would egerly spoile him of al. Upon which aduise the king consented to receiue the Archbishop and the rest of the exiles in peace to restore that to them which hee had seased of their liuinges to his vse to resigne his Crowne into the Popes handes and to take it againe as his liege man Secundary for a thowsand marke sterling by the yeare This done the Legate sayled back sent home the Bishops discharged the armie prohibited the French king to proceede any farther for so much as the king of England was newely become a tenant to the church of Rome With this sleight the Pope caught the crowne of England neither as I thinke was there euer any kingdome purchased with lesse charge and more speede thaÌ„ this was by the Pope Philand If the King woulde resigne it why shoulde not the Pope receiue it And in my conceit it was safer for the King to fall into the Popes handes to be rented than into the French Kinges to be spoiled Theo. That conceit which you speake of made the King of England content to be
well erre in their generations before vs Phi. They kept the steppes of their fathers which if you doe you shall not erre Theo. This is the next way round about to come to the wood For how will you proue that euery generation which hath beene these 1500. yeares since Christ hath precisely kept the rules and limites of their forefathers Phi. You can not shew when or where they swarued Theo. If wee could not our ignorance in that point is no great securitie for your faith The defection of euerie age from their fathers might be either not marked or not recorded or since oblitered and therefore reason you proue your faith to haue descended from age to age without alteration before we beleeue it to be the faith of your fathers But what meaneth this that you prescribe that way to iudge of religion and the seruice of God which God himselfe prohibiteth Phi. Doth God forbid vs to follow our fathers Theo. In as plaine wordes as can be spoken with a tongue by the mouth of Ezechiel he saith Walke ye not in the preceptes of your fathers neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their idols I am the Lord your God walke in my statutes and keepe my iudgementes By Dauid he saith Let them not be as their fathers were a disobedient and rebellious generation a generation that set not their heart aright whose spirit was not faithful vnto God And dehorting them from their fathers steps To day saith Dauid if you wil heare Gods voice harden not your harts as in the day of coÌ„tention as in the day of temptation in the wildernes where your fathers tempted proued me though they had seen my workes Fourtie yeares did I contend with that generation and saide they are a people that erre in heart they haue not knowen my wayes By Zacharie he saith Be ye not as your fathers vnto whome the former Prophetes haue cried saying Thus saith the Lord of hostâ—â— turne you now from your euill waies and from your wicked workes but they would not heare nor harken vnto me saith the Lord. And what you count deuotion humilitie for the people to follow their fathers that God himself calleth defection conspiracie I haue protested vnto your fathers euer since I brought them out of the land of Aegypt to this day saying obey my voice Neuertheles they wold not obey nor incline their eare but euerie one walked in the stubbernesse of his wicked heart And of the children doing as their fathers did he saith A coÌ„spiracie is found among the men of Iudah and among the inhabitants of Ierusalem They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers that refused to heare my wordes With what face then can you deale so earnestly with the simple subiectes of this Land to regard neither God nor his word but only to runne the race of their Elders seeing God so straitly commaunded the children of Israel to beware the pathes and presidentes of their forefathers Phi. We must beware their wickednesse Theo. Then may they be wicked and so no paterns for vs or any others to follow Phi. The Iewes were wicked Theo. What charter can you shew that christians shall not be the like Phi. Hell gates shall not preuaile against the church of Christ. Theo. No more did they preuaile against the chosen and elect of Israel but the greatest number and gaiest men are not alwaies the church of God The foundation of God standeth sure and hath this zeale the Lord knoweth who are his Of his elect which are his true church our Sauiour hath pronounced it is not possible they should bee deceiued the rest haue no such priuilege yea rather the holy Ghost forewarneth that all besides the elect shall bee deceiued Our Sauiour our saith There shal arise false Christes and false Prophetes and shal shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the verie elect The rest then which are not elect they shall deceiue And so S. Paul speaking of the verie same deceiuers addeth whose comming is by the working of Satan with all power and in all deceiueablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish because they receiued not the law of the truth that they might be saued And therefore God shall sende them strong delusion that they should beleeue lies that al they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And S. Iohn speaking of the beast that made warre with the Saintes had power ouer euerie kindred and tongue and nation saith Therefore all that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life So that the visible church consisting of good bad elect and reprobate hath no such promise but she may erre only the chosen of Christ which are the true members of his body properly called his church they shall not erre vnto perdition and those if you could point them out with your finger the people might safely follow otherwise if you set men to follow the rest of their fathers be they neuer so many neuer so graue neuer so godly to your seeming you bid them take the wide gate and broade way that leadeth to destruction because there were many that entered it before them Phi. Will you make vs beleeue that our fathers are perished Theo. Who are perished is not for vs to pronounce They were his seruants that iudgeth iustly neither haue we to medle with their doome but to looke to our owne yet this we can assure you that many be called and few chosen And therefore if you aduise the people to imitate the multitude of their fathers you teach them the right way to hell And though wee may not iudge of your fathers yet knowe you for a certainty that God is not afraide to iudge them and condemne them if they refused his truth as you do Neither is it any such daungerous doctrine to say that our forefathers haue sinned and displeased God as you woulde make it the godly haue alwaies confessed it of their fathers and not spared to tell the wicked so much to their fates Dauid slandered not his forefathers when he said We haue sinned with our fathers we haue done wickedly Our fathers vnderstood not thy wonders in Aegypt neither remembred they the multitude of thy mercies but rebelled at the Sea euen at the red Sea Daniell knewe what he pronounced when hee confessed O Lord to vs belongeth open shame to our kinges to our Princes and to our fathers because wee haue sinned against thee Ezechiah was not ashamed to say Our fathers haue trespassed and done euill in the eyes of the Lord our God and haue forsaken him and turned their backes And loe our fathers are fallen by the sword Iohn told the Pharisees to their faces their fathers were vipers and
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
likenes of his owne face and sent to king Abagarus as Damascene and Nicephorus witnesse Theoph. You may well sweare I will neither beleeue you nor Damascene Damascene sayth Fertur quaedam historia there is such a storie spread abroad but hee neither telleth by whom it was made nor of what credite it is and Eusebius that first tooke this storie of Abagarus and that at large out of the monuments of the Citie Edessa reporteth no such thing yea the Church of Rome her selfe some hundreths before Damascene repelled that Epistle of Christ to Abagarus then extant by name as Apocryphall And therfore you bolster an error and abuse the people of God with forgeries long before condemned though since receiued by Nicephorus and other fablers among the Grecians who wrate all they found without iudgement or without all shame fayned that they neuer found except it were in some wicked and witlesse legend such as your Church of late dayes had good stoare Philand And so the image of our Ladie made by Saint Luke you will say is a fable and yet Simeon Methaphrastes doeth confirme it Theoph. Leaue these late and obscure Lyars and bring some-what woorth the answering Philand Saint Basil sayth the painting and adoring of Images is a tradition of the Apostles and so doeth Damascene The woordes of S. Basil are Quam ob causam historias Imaginum illorum honoro palam adoro Hoc enim nobis traditum a sanctis Apostolis non est prohibendum sed in omnibus eccleâ—ijs nostris eorum historias erigimus For which cause I honour and openly adore the stories of their Images And this being deliuered vs from the Apostles is not prohibited but in all our Churches wee erect their histories Theoph. Can you turne vs to the place in Saint Basill Phi. The epistle is not extant but Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome whose credite is sufficient for a greater matter than this doeth alleage iâ—â—ut of his writings against Iulian the Apostata Theo. Adrian and you bâ—th shall pardon vs for beleeuing you when wee find no such woordes in all S. Basill Phi. They might be then in Saint Basil though they be not now Theo. If the woordes did agree with the spirit of Saint Basil or with the sâ—aâ—e of those tymes or with the rest of the fathers and auncient teachers in Christes Church wee woulde not so much dislike them though they were not found in Saint Basils woorkes but nowe seeing the woordes to be sensibly false if not vtterly wicked and to haue no conuenience with the doctrine of those that taught in the same time or neere about his age and knowing in the contention of the Grecians for images somewhat before Adrian what framing and â—â—ling of fathers there was to beare out either side wee thinke it easier for the Bishoppe of Rome to bee deceiued in a Greeke writer that liued 450. yeeres before him by some false reporter lewd translator or cunning forgeâ—er than for Basil to bee so great a straunger in the Church of Christ and so manifest a despiser of Gods precepts that hee would openly defend and himselfe vse adoration of Saintes Images without any scruple as deliuered from the Apostles who were farre from hauing farther from teaching the godly to worship the Images of Prophetes Apostles or Martyrs as this deluder dreameth And therefore either shewe vs the Epistle where this is written or else leaue loding the learned fathers names with such vnlearned corruptions Philand Were there not many thinges written by the Catholique Fathers that nowe are perished Theoph. And as many thinges forged in their names that were neuer written by them as appeareth in all their woorkes to this day by the iudgement of your very friendes Phil. This is the next way to call all their writinges and so the whole Christian sayth in question Theoph. You woulde faine haue vs swallowe your monkish impieties vnder the colour of their authorities but the wisedome of God hath better prouided for his church than so The rule of our fayth is the voyce of our Shepheard By that we iudge of the writings of all others be they fâ—ithâ—â—ll or Infidels If this were written in Basil wee would not receiue it vntill wee had tried it by that touchstone finding no such thing in all his woorkes why should wee regard it Philand There it was though nowe it bee not Theophi There it is not wheresoeuer it was and your alleager hath no suâ—h credite with vs that wee should trust him Philand Trust no man I praie you that is against you Theo. Wee trust not you to be your owne caruers Phi. This authoritie was alleaged and allowed to be S. Basils in a general Councell 800. yeres agoe Theo. That Councell was neuer receiued nor confessed to be general by the west Churches but reiected and condemned as a wicked coniuration against the faith and the letter there framed in Adrians name besides that it sauoreth altogether of your late forge at Rome is a pestilent and shamelesse depriuation both of fathers and Scriptures Phi. You bee very choice that can like nothing except it be exquisite The. You be worse than grosse if you take such palpable lies to be the fortresses of your faith Omit that fond and false report of Constantines leprosie purposing to bee washed in a bath of infants blood and dehorted from it in the night as hee slept by some that appeared to him whome hee afterwarde knewe to bee Peter and Paul by their Images which Siluester Bishoppe of Rome shewed him and that thereupon Constantine being first a persecuter of the Christians was conuerted and baptized by Syluester and beganne to buylde Churches and decked them with Images in euery place lewder and viler fables than which your legend hath none the rest of Adrians allegations out of the scriptures and Fathers what are they but open iniuries and mockeries of GOD and man The Scriptures which hee bringeth to proue the making and adoring of Images bee these God made man of the slime of the earth after his owne Image Adam of his owne free will called all the beastes of the fielde and foules of the ayre by their proper names Abel of his owne accord presented a sacrifice vnto God of the firstlings of his flocke Noe after the flood of his owne head buylt an altar vnto the Lorde and offered thereon So Abraham of himselfe erected an altar in the honour and glorie of God Iacob also when hee had in his sleepe seene the Angels of GOD ascending descending by the ladder after hee rose of his owne motion set vp a stone on the ground where his head lay and powred oyle on it and named the place Bethel and wee doe not reade that God for this cause was angrie with him Againe the same Iacob worshipped in the toppe of his staffe
And so againe of that and such like Many thinges are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in the Councels of those that came after them and yet because they be obserued of the vniuersall Church Non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur they are thought to haue bin deliuered and commended by none but by them Phi. This sense is not amisse if the words would beare it but the text is Esset as we translate it Theo. The sense which you vrge is first against your selues next against S. Austen himselfe in other places and lastly which is it that you shoote at it ouerthroweth not our assertion Phi. It requireth some paines to proue all this Theo. Not so much perhappes as you thinke For will you confesse that no custome of the church must be receiued or beleeued except it be Apostolike Admit this and see whether we will not presently cast off the most part of the preceptes and customes of your Church as not descending from the Apostles and therefore not at all to bee beleeued by your owne verdict And as for Sainct Augustine if you thinke hee woulde saie that The custome of the vniuersall Church is not at all to be beleeued except it bee Apostolik reade this resolution better you wil leaue that misconstruction of his wordes Those things which we keep saith he not written but deliuered by traditioÌ„ the which the whole world obserueth must be conceiued to haue bin commended ordained vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in ecclesia saluberrima authoritas either by the Apostles themselues or else by general councels whose autority in the church is most wholsom The custom of the church he saith must be retained though it be not Apostolike but decreed by others of later age meanâ—r credit than the Apostles if their assemblies synods were general And againe In hijs rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta Maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt In those things where the diuine scripture appointeth no certainty the custome of the people of God ordinances of forefathers must bee helde for a law If the custome of Gods people the ordinaÌ„ces of elders must be kept for a law then the custom of the church in baptizing her infants might not be reiected though it were not Apostolike so S. Austen with your esset cleane crosseth himselfe Lastly where you thinke to giue vs the foile with pressing this place we easily grant you that The custom of the church in baptizing her infantes were not to be beleeued if it were not in Apostolike tradition You haue your own reading what are you the better Phi. Ergo some points of faith are beleeued without the scriptures besides the scriptures The. Sir I deny your argument Phi. This is beleeued by tradition ergo not by scripture Theo. A tradition it may be yet written in the scriptures S. Paul calleth the Lords supper a traditioÌ„ yet it is written Ego accepi à Domino quod tradidi vobis I receiued of the Lord that which I deliuered vnto you The death and resurrection of Christ he likewise caled a tradition confirmed by the Scriptures Tradidi vobis inprimis quod accepi I deliuered vnto you first of all which I also receiued that Christ died for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and was buried and rose the thirde daie according to the Scriptures And in plainer words to the Thessalonians Holde fast sayeth hee the traditions which you haue learned either by speeche or Epistle of ours calling those thinges that be written in his epistles his traditions Phi. But the fathers vse the word otherwise for that which is not written Theo. Sometimes they do somtimes they do not S. Cyprian sayth Whence is this tradition Whether doeth it descend from the Lordes authority and the Gospell or commeth it from the precepts and epistles of the Apostles If it be commaunded in the Gospell or contained in the Epistles or Actes of the Apostles let this holy tradition be obserued And so S. Basill Our baptisme is according to the tradition of the Lord in the name of the father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Ireneus Tertullian Hierom Augustine and others call the short rehearsal of the christian faith which is our common Creede an old Apostolik traditioÌ„ yet no part of the creede is without or besides the warrant of the Scriptures Phi. I know it may be a tradition and yet reuokeable to the Scriptures and proueable by the Scriptures but the baptisme of infantes Sainct Augustine saith hath no witnes in the scriptures Theo. Where saith he so Phi. In many places Theo. Name but one Phi. There be many things which the vniuersal Church obserueth and for that cause they be well thought to haue beene commaunded by the Apostles though they be not found written Theo. How proue you this to be one of those many Phi. Because wee finde it not written but only deliuered by tradition Theo. You say so but where doth S. Augustine say so Phi. In the wordes which we first alleaged It were not to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition If it were written it must be beleeued though it were no Tradition Theo. You deale with the fathers as you doe with the scriptures S. Austen doth not say the baptisme of infants were not to be beleeued but The custome of the Church in a matter of so great weight as the baptizing of infants were not to be trusted if the tradition were not Apostolike The church might not haue presumed to baptize infants if the Apostles had not begunne it what gaine you by that Thereby you may proue that the Apostles did it and that the Church of her selfe and her own authoritie might not doe it more you cannot proue Phi. But doth S. Austen any where say that the baptisme of Children is contained in the scriptures Theo. What if he went not so farre in wordes because the matter was not in question whiles he liued is that any ground for you to conclude that it is not allowed by the Scriptures Phi. If he keepe silence it is a shrewde signe that it is not Theo. So long as no man did impugne it there was no need he should defend it the question in his time was not whether it were lawful for infants to be baptized but whether it were needfull for theÌ„ or no. The Pelagians held it to be superfluous for yâ— infantes were void of original sinne which was their error That he mightily reproueth by manifest Scriptures and sheweth that infants as well as others bee excluded from the kingdome of God if they be not baptized Farther hee waded not as being not farther vrged and troubled enough besides with refuting other heresies and yet as occasion serued hee brought
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
Father and the Sonne to proceede both from the Father and the Sonne For the Sonne saith when the spirit of trueth coÌ„meth which proceedeth from the father Where he teacheth vs the spirit to be his also because himselfe is trueth And that the holy ghost proceedeth likewise from the sonne the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles doeth deliuer vnto vs. For Esay sayth of the sonne Hee shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the spirit of his lippes he shal slea the wicked Of whom the Apostle also sayth Whom the Lord Iesus shall slea with the spirit of his mouth Whome the onely Sonne of God declaring to bee the Spirite of his mouth breathing on his Disciples after his resurrection sayth receiue ye the holy Ghost And Iohn in his Reuelation sayth that out of the mouth of the Lorde Iesu him-selfe there proceeded a sharpe two edged swoorde Hee therefore is the Spirit of his mouth hee is the sword which proceedeth out of his mouth And againe By many testimonies of the diuine Scriptures it is prooued that he is the spirite of the father and the sonne which is properly called in the Trinitie the holy ghost And that he proceedeth from both it is thus proued because the sonne himselfe saith the spirit of trueth proceedeth from the father And when he was risen from death and appeared to his disciples he breathed on them and sayd Receiue ye the holy ghost to shewe that the spirit proceeded from him also And that spirit is the vertue which came from him as we read in the gospel and healed all men What you thinke of these places we know not but sure we are S. Augustine himselfe sayth of these the like Cum per Scripturarum sanctarum testimonia docuissem de vtroque procedere Spiritum sanctum When I had shewed by the testimonies of the Holy scriptures that the holy ghost proceedeth froÌ„ both the father the sonne And if it bee the naturall and distinct proprietie of the Spirite to proceede as it is of the sonne to bee begotten which I winne you will not denie then is it as euident by the Scriptures that the holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father and the sonne as it is that the sonne was begotten of the father For as the second person in Trinitie was begotten of him whose sonne hee is so the thirde Person proceeded from them whose spirite hee is but hee is the Spirite of them both as the Scriptures expressely witnes Ergo hee proceeded from them both Phi. The doctrine is true but the scripture is not expresse Theo. What meane you by your expresse scripture Phi. Those very woordes He proceedeth from them both are not found in the scriptures Theo. Alas good Sirs is that your quarrell Doe the scriptures I pray you consist in spelling or in vnderstanding Neuer read you what S. Hierom sayth Nec putemus in verbis ScripturaruÌ„ Euangelium esse sed in sensu non in superficie sed in medulla non in sermonum folijs sed in radice rationis Let vs not thinke the Gospell to lie in the words of the scriptures but in the sense not in the rind but in the pith not in the leaues of speech but in the ground of reason truth If by expresse scripture you meane the plaine 〈◊〉 sense of the word of God we haue euident infallible proofes thence for the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father the sonne But if you sticke on the syllables letters which we speake you doe but wrangle with vs as the Arias did with the Nicene fathers Expostulating why the Bishops that met at Nice vsed these words substance consubstaÌ„tial which were nowhere found in the Scriptures our answere to you shal be the same that theirs was to them These words though they be not found in the Scriptures yet haue they the same meaning and sense which the Scriptures containe And that we count to be expresse scripture For otherwise as Hilarie saith Al heretiks speake Scriptures without sense the diuell himself as Hierom noâ—eth hath spoken some things out of the scriptures but that as they both witnes in the very next words The scriptures coÌ„sist not in reading but in vnderstanding And yet I see no cause why this point should be denied to be expresse Scripture for so much as S. Iohn describing the son of God with a sharpe two edged â—word proceeding out of his mouth which is the rod of his mouth wherewith he shal smite the earth the spirit of his lips wherewith hee shall slea the wicked as Esay prophesied hee should and Paul declareth hee would vseth the very same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 twise which our Sauior before spake of his father 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the spirit which proceedeth froÌ„ the father So that you were fouly ouerseene when you obiected this point of our christian faith as wanting expresse scripture Phi. If you take not only the words but also the sense â—or scripture we will not greatly gainesay but all points of faith may be deriued out of these words or out of the sense of that which is written The. Deriued as you do pardoÌ„s pilgrimages penaÌ„ces purgatory But we say that al points of faith must be plainly concluded or necessarily collected by that which is writteÌ„ And for our so saying we haue not only the scriptures fathers but also your selues which being so often required vrged to shewe what one point of faith the primatiue church of Christ beleeued wtout the scriptures could neuer shew any Phi. We could shew many if that needed we wer disposed The. I know not what accoÌ„pt you make of it but to our simple conceiuing it is the groundwork of al religioÌ„ crazeth the very heart of your vnwritten verities And if to satisfie the people of God disburden your selues of an errour you be not all this while disposed to doe what you can we must leaue you for curious and daintie men and thinke you can not Phi. Tertullian was of that minde that we are when he willed the christians not to appeale to the scriptures for the triall of their faith His words are Ergo non est ad scripturas prouocandum nec in ijs constituendum certamen in quibus aut nulla aut incerta victoria est We must therefore not appeale to the Scriptures nor place the trial of our cause in those writings in which the victorie is either none or not sure Theo. You do both the truth and Tertullian wrong TertulliaÌ„ doth not say that in matters of faith some things should be beleeued wtout the Scriptures no man is flatter against that than Tertullian in this very booke which you bring but he would not haue the heretikes of his time chalenged nor brought to the Scriptures because they receiued not the books as
they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
reuerent estimation regard of them that they be not despised or abused although they be but signes So that water in baptism and the creatures of breade and wine in the Lordes supper which are the two examples here mentioned are to be reuerenced as things that be sacred by the word and ordinaÌ„ce of God but not to be adored and honored for the things themselues whose signes they are that were a miserable seruitude or rather the right death of the soule as Austen noteth And that the first teachers of truth remoued al Images as vnprofitable signes to serue God with the words before do plainly shew For speaking of the difference between the Iewes and the Gentils when they should be conuerted vnto Christ he saith ChristiaÌ„ liberty finding the Iewes vnder profitable signes to wit the rites Ceremonies of the Lawe did interprete the meaning of them and so by directing the people to the things themselues deliuered them from the seruitude of the signes but finding the Gentiles vnder vnprofitable signes for that they worshipped Images either as Gods or as the signes and resemblaunces of Gods ipsa signa fruâ—trauit remouitque omnia shee wholy remoued and frustrated the signes themselues that is shee would not suffer them to serue the true God with any such signes as bodily shapes and Images were Your honouring of Images is reproued as you see and not releeued by S. Augustines Rule And since the Lawe of God expressely and â—treitly chargeth you not so much as to bowe your bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in heauen or earth which is made with handes consult your owne consciences whether you may with your respects frustrate or with your routes ouerbeare the distinct and direct voice of God himselfe in his own Church And if you be not giuen ouer into a reprobate sense you wil say no. Now that which is against the Law of God can neither be Christian nor Catholike Your Doctrine therefore of bowing and kneeling to Images is repugnant both to the precepts of God and to the generall auncient resolution of Christs church your adoring them with diuine honour is a sacrilegious and flagitious as well noueltie as impietie Phi. You must not looke that we should defend the sayings doings of all that haue takeÌ„ part with the church of Rome If Thomas waded too far in worshipping Images if Gerson mistooke S. Augustine if the later Councell of Nice denied or strained some of the ancient Fathers you must not chalenge vs for their ouerâ—ightes The. We chalenge you for vaunting your selues to be Catholikes when in deede you doe nothing but smooth and sleike the corruptions and inuentions of later ages against the right ancient faith of Christs church The discent of Images with their adoration how late it began how often it varied how far at length it swarued froÌ„ the Primatiue original profession of the christiaÌ„ catholik faith we haue spent somtime to examine Let vs now approch to your praiers in a straÌ„ge toung which haue a great deal lesse shew of catholicism thaÌ„ images had yet are as egerly defended by you as images were Phi. In the Latine toung we haue praiers in a strange toung we haue none you rather that haue turned scriptures church seruice secretes for your pleasures into the English tongue make your praiers in a strange and vnwonted speach to catholik earesâ— The. To English meÌ„ the English toung is not strange Phi. I know they vnderstand it but I call it strange because they were not woont to haue the publike praiers of the Church in their mother toung Theo. In cases of religion we must respect not what men haue but what they should haue beene vsed to Cyprian saith well Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas erroris est Custome without trueth is but the long continuance of error so Tertullian Quodcunque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo Whatsoeuer is against the trueth it must bee counted heresie though it be an old Custom The Councell of Carthage where Cyprian was resolued thuâ— The Lord saith in the Gospel I am trueth he said not I am custom Trueth therefore appearing let custom yeeld to truth Phi. That councel erred in neglecting the old custom which the church obserued Theo. But yet their generall assertion which I alleage was so strong that S. Augustine saith to those very wordes Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritatis manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere I plainly answere who doubteth but that custom must yeeld to the trueth appearing Phi. Neither doe we doubt of that but how proue you this to be a manifest trueth that the people of this Land must haue their diuine seruice in the English tongue Theo. It is the manifest precept of him that said I am trueth and witnessed in the Scripture which is the worde of trueth Philan. In what place there Theo. Make not your selfe so great a stranger in the Scriptures as if you knew not the place Phi. You meane the 14. Chapter of the first epistle which S Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth Theo. I doe what say you to it Phi. Mary this we say The reader may take a tast in this one point of your deceitfull dealing abusing the simplicitie of the popular by peruerse application of Gods holy word vpon some smale similitude equiuocatioÌ„ of certaine termes against the approued godly vse and trueth of the vniuersall Church for the seruice in the Latine or Greeke tongue which you ignorantly or rather wilfully pretend to be against this discourse of S. Paul touching strange tongues Theo. And hee that marketh your shifting and facing in this one point shall need no farther tast of your dealing Phi. If you like not that which we say refel it Theo. Can your selues tell what you say Phi. You shall well find that when we come to the matter Theo. First then heare what the Apostle saith and after you shal haue leaue to say what you will Instructing the Church of Corinth thus he saith And now brethren if I come to you speaking with strange tongues what shall I profite you If a truÌ„pet giue an vncertaine sound who wil prepare himself to the battel So likewise you by the tongue except you vtter words of easie vnderstanding how shal it be knoweÌ„ what is spoken For you shal speake in the aire There are for example so many kindes of tongues in the worlde and none of them is without sound Except I know the power and signification of the speach I shall be to him that speaketh barbarous and he that speaketh shall be barbarous to me Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray thâ—t he may interpret For if I pray in a tongue not vnderstood my spirite praieth but mine vnderstanding is without fruit What is it then I wil pray with the
be whether euerie ladde or lasse prentise and ploughman exactly vnderstand euery word that is written but whether they edifie the church of Christ or no that is whether they haue in them many thinges fruitfull to be knowen and easie to bee learned if the hearers will be diligent and delight in the law of God as they ought are bound to doe And in this case masters you be not only snappish but very saucy with God himself that wil not suffer him to speak in his Church by the mouthes of his Prophetes and Apostles if you finde any sot or simâ—le idiote in the company that happily vnderstandeth not euery word which the holy Ghost vttereth Were you Surgions of the body and had some in cure that could not see with one eye to remedy that imperfection would you put out both and make them starke blind Phi. A wise similitude Theo. As wise as your illation against our diuine seruice For where some be so dull and ignorant that they conceiue not diuerse thinges in the Psalmes Lessons and prayers to helpe that you would take from them the rest which they doe vnderstand and so fill their eares with the strangenesse of an vnknowen tongue that their hearts perceiue iust asmuch of your prayers as blind men â—o of colours And see you not that your assertion strangleth it selfe and clearly conuinceth the vnfruitfulnesse of your latine prayers For if the people bee so simple that they vnderstande not the sense of many thinges in their mother tongue how many thinke you among them vnderstand the same or any thing else in the latine tongue If the Scriptures must be inioyned silence in the Church because they speake some thinges which the ruder sort can not easily attain what place can be left for your latine Masse Mattines and seruice of which the people vnderstand not one word and the knowledge of so much as one sentence thereof before they can get they must be not only Diuines which you say they are not but good Grammarians which in their education is not possible What else is this but to put out both their eyes where before they vnderstood many things that were both fruitfull and needefull for them so to mure vp their eares and choke vp their harts with a barbarous sound of vnknowen speech that neither the simpler nor wiser sort of them perceiued any line or letter of your seruice Phi. Call you the latine tongue barbarous Theo. Not in it selfe but in respect of the hearer which is not acquainted with it And so S. Paul calleth any language that is not vnderstood barbarous to him that vnderstandeth it not If I know not the power or signification of the speech I shall bee barbarous to him that speaketh and hee that speaketh shall be barbarous to me that vnderstand him not Phi. You are deceiued There is here no worde written or ment of any other tongues but such as men spake in the primatiue Church by miracle Theo. Did not the twelue Apostles that were Hebrewes borne speake Greeke and Latine by the miraculous gift of the holy Ghost descending on them in the likenes of clouen and firie tongues as it is specified in the second of the Actes Phi. I thinke they did because the Romanes are there named amongest those that hearde euery man their owne language at the Apostles mouthes Mary though the Hebrew Greeke and Latine might bee giuen by miracle and without study it being knowen to the Iewes Romanes or Greekes in euery place they be not counted among the differences of barbarous and straunge tongues here spoken of Theo. S. Paul doth not here like a Rhetorician as you would haue him distinguish the tongues which bee most eloquent and oratoricall in themselues that was farre from the Apostles minde or purpose but onely sheweth that euery tongue not vnderstood bee it Hebrew Greeke Latine Persike Arabike or what language you list seemeth not without iust cause to bee barbarous to him that knoweth not the force and signification of the speech And so he limiteth the word barbarous when hee saith If I knowe not the power of the voice I shall bee barbarous to him that speaketh and hee likewise to mee Omnis sermo qui non intelligitur barbarus iudicatur Euery tongue that is not vnderstood is deemed saith Hierom to be barbarous And Chrysostom He shal be barbarous to me and I to him Non vtique ob naturam vocis sed ob imperitiam not by the nature of the toung but by the vnskilfulnes of the hearer Non enim barbarus inquit ero sed loquenti barbarus Et rursus non qui loquitur barbarus est inquits sed mihi barbarous For S. Paul saith not I shal simplie be a barbarian but barbarous to him that speaketh And againe hee that speaketh shall not be absolutely a barbarian but barbarous vnto me saith the Apostle Phi. This we say was not ment of any of the three learned toungs namely not of the Latine Greeke nor Hebrew The. That is one of your oracles in your Rhemish obseruatioÌ„s but we would heare your reasons not your fansies why the Latine toung if it be not vnderstood may not bee counted barbarous to the hearer Phi. Know you that nothing in this chapter is ment of those toungs which were the common languages of the world or of the faithfull vnderstood of the learned and ciuill people in euery great citie and in which the scriptures of the old and new Testament were written Theo. This is pride to affirme what you will your selues â— it is no reason to confirme that which is now in question betwixt vs And yet that which you affirme is either not true or not much to the matter For first in latine no Scriptures were written but the Apostle writing to the Romans wrate in the Greek toung not in latine which argueth that the laâ—ine toung was nothing so much esteemed or so generally dispersed as the Greeke Next that the learned ciuile people in euery great city had the knowledge of the Hebrew Greeke latine is an other of your Iesuitical truthes auouched by no man but by your selues no way possible to be proued but by your magistrall surmises The Hebrew was hard neglected of all men sauing of the Iewes whose peculiar tongue it was the greater cities despising as well the Nation as their language til Christ was ascended between that the preaching of the Gospel in the greater cities the people though they were ciuil had neither time capacity nor meanes to learne a newe tongue and so difficult a tongue both to pronounce and vnderstand as the Hebrew is The Greeke tongue was in high price and farther spred before the birth of our Sauiour not only by reason of the Monarchie which was amongest the Grecians before it came to the Romanes but specially for that all liberall studies artes
Pastours and prophetes of the primatiue church in their publike praiers and exhortations and called it a confusion and resembled it to our babling in the church at this day which you thinke to be very disordered Phi. I see no proofe that the Pastours of the Church in the Apostles time made their publike prayers as you say by miraculous instinct of the spirite Theoph. Doe but open your eyes when you reade this chapter and you can not choose but see it Both this and the twelfth chapter treate wholy of the gifts of the spirite Where you finde that to one was giuen by the spirit the word of wisedome to an other the word of knowledge to an other fayth to an other giftes of healing by the same spirite to an other operation of wonders to an other prophesie to an other discerning of spirites to an other diuersities of toungs to an other interpretation of toungs Phi. Here is not the gift of praier numbred amongest them Theo. But in the fourteenth it is where shewing them how they should behaue themselues in the Church when the congregation was assembled he laieth this downe as a rule for them to follow I will pray with thee spirite but I will pray with the vnderstanding also I will sing with the spirite but I will sing with the vnderstanding also Else when thou blessest with the spirite how shal he that occupieth the room of the simple or common person say Amen at the giuing of thanks seeing he knoweth not what thou saiest To pray sing and blesse with the spirite in this place can bee nothing else but to be guided and led by the spirit in their praiers Psalmes thanks as they were in their doctrines interpretations exhortations which was by miracle on the suddain not by learning or study This was done in the church whē al the faithful were present to these praiers psalms thāksgiuings the people were to say Amen as the Apostle sheweth which is the ende signe and proofe of publike prayer among christians What is church seruice if this be not or what other Seruice could the Church haue besides hearing the word and offering their common supplications vnto God by the mouth of one man the rest vnderstanding what he said and confirming his praier with saying Amen Phi. The Apostle speaketh of one man supplying the place of the vulgar and you stretch it to the whole people Theo. If the praiers of the Church concerned some of the people and not all you might make that obiection with some shew but now it hath no color when S. Paul asketh How shal the simple man say Amen he meaneth not this or that man but any or euery And so the indefinite signifieth generally throughout the Scripture Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth no sinne that is Blessed is euery man to whom the Lord imputeth no sin Cursed be the man that obserueth not all the workes of the Law to doe them that is by S. Pauls owne exposition Cursed is euery man that continueth not in all things which are written in the booke of the Lawe to doe them The whole Scripture is full of the like And therefore Chrysostome noteth Indoctum promiscuam plebem vocat monstratque non leue incommodum esse si Amen dicere non possit The vnlearned he calleth the vulgar people and declareth it to be no smale inconuenience if they cannot say Amen Phi. I see they did praie sing and blesse with the spirite and that the people said Amen but had they no speciall nor vsuall praiers reserued for the ministration of the Sacrament which might not be varied Theo. You think belike they had your Introite Grail Tract Sequēce Offertorie Secrets Postcommunion Pax and Ite missa est Phi. Sure they had some precise forme of seruice though we know it not Theo. And since you knowe it not why should you make it the anker hold of all your exposition vpon S. Paul Phi. Had they no order for their seruice Theo. What a stirre here is for that which the Apostles neuer did Had they set an order for the seruice of the Church durst any man after haue broken it Phi. S. Iames masse is yet extant Theo. And so are a number of other foolish forgeries as wel as that Phi. Do you think it forged Theo. Which of S. Iames masses do you meane Phi. There are not so many that you should aske which Theo. Two there are vnder his name the one nothing like the other yet both fathered vpō him Phi. We haue but one and that set in order of church seruice with mutual praiers and answers for Priest and People very perfectly Theo. And the other you shall find in the eight booke of Clemens Apostolike constitutions where the fourteene Apostles for so you haue increased their number as well as their constitutions take precise order what praiers answers and actions shal be vsed at the mysticall sacrifice their first prescription being this that Two Deacons shal be on both sides of the altar with tuffs of pecocks tails in their hands to driue away gnats left they light in the Chalice a graue consideration for Christs Apostles to meete together to make flappes to catch flies Phi. That I graunt is a matter of smal respect but yet not enough to refute the booke Theo. It is sufficiently refuted in that neither the Church of Christ nor your selues euer esteemed it Had this book beene Authentik it must needs haue beene taken into the canon of the Scriptures For if that which any one Apostle wrate be Canonical much more that which al the Apostles with common consent decreed and ordered Againe had the Apostles prescribed an exact fourme of diuine seruice for the Lords table what man would haue altered it or what Church refused it How would either Basill or Chrysostome haue presumed to make newe formes of Church seruice if those liturgies be theirs not rather forced on thē as this is on the first chiefe Apostles of Christ Why did the Latine Church and the Church of Rome her selfe neglect that seruice if it were Apostolike and preferre the praiers of one Scholasticus as worthier to be said ouer the deuine mysteries the maker being so obscure a man that his name is not knowen in the church of god why were the Bishops of Rome 600. yeares vpward patching piecing the masse before they brought it to any setled forme as your own fellowes confesse and yet then Rome had one forme of seruice Millan an other which they keepe at this day Fraunce a thirde Why did Gregorie when he was consulted by Augustine the monke what forme of diuine seruice he should commēd to the Saxons wil him to bind himselfe neither to Rome nor to any church els but to take from euery place that which he liked best and deliuer that vnto the English To
cut off al ambiguities we haue the plaine testimonie of Gregorie the great that the Church of Rome 600. yeres after Christ knew nothing of those constitutions and Church seruices which are now obtruded vnder the Apostles names Mos Apostolorum fuit vt ad ipsam solummodo orationem Dommicam oblationis hostiam consecraret This was saith he the maner of the Apostles to consecrate the sacrifice with saying no moe praiers but the Lords praier In vaine therefore doe you dreame of a settled forme of praier for the Lords supper where as the Apostles haue none but left that to the direction and disposition of the holy Ghost inspiring the ministers and elders in euery Church when the faithful were assembled to make their praiers vnto god with the people and to render him thankes for all his mercies as the spirite gaue them vtterance This Chrysostome calleth Precandi domum the miraculous gift of praiers whereof S. Paul speaketh in this place and Tertul. seemeth to meÌ„tion the same in his Apologie for the Christians as during in the Church vnto his time We saith he looking vp to heauen with our hands stretched out as being innocent bareheaded as not ashamed sine monitore quia de pectore oramus make our praiers without any prompter as comming from the free motion of our own harts Phi. Our arguments conuince that S. Paul spake not of the Churches seruice and till those be answered we cannot change our minds Theo. That which I haue alreadie saide openeth your error in mistaking or els peruerting the wordes of S. Paul choose you whether if that content you not repeate your reasons as they stand in rew that we may see their force Phi. It is euident the Corinthians had their Seruice in Greeke at this same time and â—t was not done in these miraculous toungs Nothing is ment then of the church seruice Theo. To vs it is out of question that the Corinthians had their publike prayers and exhortations in the Greeke tongue because the common people of that City vnderstood none other and the tongue which they vnderstoode not might not be vsed in the Church by S. Pauls rule but you that denie S. Paul to speak of the Church seruice in this place howe prooue you the Corinthians had their Seruice in the Greeke tongue Phi. Doe you thinke they had not Theo. For our parts as I tolde you we are resolued because S. Paul would neither haue preaching nor praying in the Church but such as might edifie addeth that an vnknown tongue profiteth nothing to edificatioÌ„ mary you are otherwise minded and therefore I see not howe you can proue that they had their seruice in the Greeke tongue which you affirme to be euident Phi. Had they their Seruice trow you in an vnknowne tongue Theo. In your opinion that is no such absurdity Phi. They could not vnderstand it except it were in Greeke Theo. This is contrary to your owne Principles For the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine as you told vs euen nowe were vnderstoode of the cyuill people in euery great Citie and were that vntrue as I know it is though you auouched it for an aduantage yet is it not necessarie to vnderstand our prayers as your selues defend in this your declaration vpon S. Paul and following the path that you leade vs in your Rhemish obseruations wee say you can not prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in the Greeke tongue Philand In what tongue else coulde they haue it Theoph. Rather in Hebrewe than in Greeke for that tongue was sacred and naturall to the Iewes who first spred the Gospel and planted the Churches Phi. The Apostle requireth the people shoulde vnderstande the prayers of the Church otherwise they reape no profite by them and to speake Hebrewe in the Church to them that vnderstood nothing but Greeke were no reason Theo. Are you there at host now Can you plea thus on both sides when you be vrged You are making inuincible arguments that the Apostle speaketh nothing in this place of the Churches seruice before you can iustifie the first proposition which you bring you bee faine to take hold of this very place to prooue the Corinthians had their Church seruice in Greeke Phi. Nay without this place it is euident they had their seruice in greeke The. Set this chapter aside and if you prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in Greeke at this very time when the Apostle wrate wee giue you the cause Phi. You be resolued they had and yet you put vs to prooue it as if it were in doubt Theo. I tel the reason It is euident they had their seruice in a knowen tongue by that which the Apostle here writeth otherwise it is not euident by any other proofe that you can make And since you will haue the Apostle to speake nothing of the Church Seruice in this chapter why shoulde wee not put you to prooue that which you lay for the ground of your misconstring Saint Pauls text Phi. A trueth it is what proofe soeuer may or may not be brought for it Theo. Let it stand for trueth what will you conclude Phi. Nothing is meant then of their Church Seruice Theo. Why so Phi. That was in Greeke and well vnderstood of all the people Theo. A worthy sequele As if it were not possible for some vaine men to disturbe the Church of Corinth notwithstanding the Apostle had left generall direction that al things should be doone in the church vnto edification The Lordes supper was rightly deliuered them was it therefore not abused by some amongst them The like say we for their praiers in the church No doubt Paul ordained at Corinth as he did in al other churches of the Saincts that the people should say Amen to euery blessing and thankesgiuing that was vsed in the Church Might not therfore some of their Elders and ministers to venditate themselues and the gift which they had of God sometimes blesse and make their praiers at the Lords table in a tongue not vnderstoode of the whole multitude Phi. Were they strangers or inhabitants Theo. It skilleth not whether they might bee either Phi. Inhabitants there would vse none other toung than their owne and strangers might not minister Sacramentes in other mens Churches Theo. Some of their own might be so vain glorious as in making their praiers at the Lordes table which was then doone by hart and not after any prescribed order or form to shew the gift of tongues which they receiued of the holy Ghost to an other end and not to commend them-selues without edifiing the hearer Strangers also if they were in place were suffered both to teach and blesse in the Church as well as others that were tied to their Cures by reason that many were sent by the Apostles and by the holy Ghost to visite the Churches and comfort the Christians as they traueled and such were according to their
and therfore I rest on it as on the truer though neither damnifie vs as touching this question the worth of a dodkin Phi. It were absurd to thinke that euery of the vulgar sort vnderstoode the Latine tongue Theo. Then is it more absurde when Bede saith The Latine tongue was made common to all the other foure tongues of this Land by the meditation of the Scriptures to interprete that of the vulgar sort and to refer it to the church seruice as you do Phi. You haue skanned our proofes at your pleasure but where all this while are yours that any christian Nation had their publike Seruice in a barbarous tongue I count all tongues barbarous besides the three learned toungs which are Latine Greeke and Hebrew Theo. In what toung ech Nation had their Seruice is nowe harde to bee knowen so many hundrethes yeares after and needlesse to bee discussed For when wee once founde it a rule laide downe by Sainct Paul that All thinges in the Church should be done to edification as well praying singing and thankesgiuing as preaching expounding the word which he calleth prophesieng and that no man is edified by that hee vnderstandeth not and also that the seruice in those two places and churches whereof we haue any records left was common to Priest and people and parted betweene them by verses and respondes the whole people men women and children singing the Psalmes answering to euery part of the seruice and saying Amen to the prayers that were made in all their names lastly that the catholike fathers in their seuerall times and cures taught the people should and witnes the people did vnderstande the publike prayers of the church what neede wee seeke further for barbarous Nations and tongues whereof we haue no monumenâ—â— wherein no famous or learned men wrote whose labors are come to our age or knowledge Phi. I thought you would shrinke when wee came to the quicke you loue to picke holes in other mens coates but not to shew your owne Belike it is so rotten it will not indure the handling Theo. Let the coate alone and come to the case Wee haue the flatte commaundement of God that all thinges in the Church shoulde bee doone to edification and the Apostles inferment that the simple man is not edified when hee vnderstandeth not what is said Your shiftes were that S. Paul spake not of the church prayers nor of the learned tongues Those wee haue refelled and are nowe come to the practise of Christes church which taking her direction from S. Pauls doctrine in this place framed her publike prayers in such order that the Pastour and people with ioyntlie and interchangeably blessed and praied eche with other and either for other not houlding it enough for the simple to say Amen they knewe not to what but requiring and appointing their deuoute distinct and intelligent answeres confessions blessinges and thankesgiuinges as well in the ministration of the Lordes supper as in other partes of their publike seruice The manner of their seruice where the whole church did with one heart and one voice sing praises to God and make their common supplications vnto him is the best exposition that may bee brought for the true construction of Sainct Pauls wordes and therein the auncient and Catholike church of Christ goeth expressely with vs and directly against you as appeareth by all the fathers that euer wrate of these thinges by the very sight and view of their liturgies by your owne authorities which here you abuse yea by the partes and prayers of your Masse-booke prescribed for the people to requiâ—e the priest with and yet remaining in force and dayly vse amongest you In your Apostolike constitutions written by no worse man as you say than by Clemens successour to Peter and fellow labourer in the Gospell with hâ—m this order of seruice at the Lords table was prefixed to the whole Church were they Hebrewes Greekes Romanes Barbarians or whatsoeuer if they were Christians The Bishop shall say the grace of almighty God the loue of our Lord Iesus Christ and the communion of the holy spirit be with you al. And all the people shall answere with one voice And with the spirit Again let the Bishop say Lift vp your harts all let answere We lift them vp vnto the Lord. And againe the Bishop Let vs giue thankes vnto the Lord and all shall answere It is meete and right so to doe And at the ende of that praier it followeth Et omnis populus simul dicat and let all the people with one voice say holy holy holy Lord of hostes The heauen and earth are full of thy glory blessed art thou for euer Amen And so after Let the Bishop say the peace of God be with you all Let all the people answere and with the spirite Let the Bishop admonish the people with these wordes holy thinges for holy persons And let the people answere one holy one Lord one Christ be blessed for euer to the glory of God the father Osanna to the sonne of Dauid Blessed is hee that commeth in the name of the Lord the Lord our God hath appeared vnto vs. Osanna in the hiest If in euerie Church the people were to know when and what to answere in their diuine seruice and with many full and whole sentences to confirme and requite the Bishops prayers and blessinges it is euident they were to vnderstand their owne and the Bishoppes speech which in a straunge and vnknowen tongue such as is vsed in your churches it is not possible for simple men and women to doe Phi. You impugned these constitutioÌ„s but euen now as none of the Apostles Theo. But you receiue them vrge them as Apostolike and therefore against you such proofes are pregnant And so are the Liturgies that is the church prayers which are vnder the names of Iames Basill and Chrysostom in which the like order of praying and blessing by course is appointed both for Prieste and people Let the places be seene if they be not obuious to euery mans eyes let me be rebuked of a bould vntrueth Phi. Your selues admit not those Liturgies Theo. Wee doe not thinke that either Basil or Chrysostom would take vpon them to make a new forme of church seruice if S. Iames the Apostle had doone it before them neitherâ— was the Greeke church to seeke of her seruice till their times or toâ— change it at their pleasures yet the thinges which wee alleage out of these Liturgies haue the manifest testimonies as well of Basill and Chrysostom as of other catholike Fathers both Greeke and Latine in their vnforged vndistrusted writinges Chrysostom expressing the maner of the church in his time sayth Euen in the prayers of the church a man may see the people helpe or offer much togither with the priest for those that are possessed with wicked spirits for the repeÌ„tants CoÌ„munes enim preces à sacerdote
maners for that is his maine restriction and not euery custome which in time to come might or should happily bee newly deuised by some partes or members of the church but such as the whole church far neere without contradiction retained then when he spake as descending from the Apostles or Apostolike men And so the word hodie doth import though your Monkes haue left out the first syllable written die for hodie as the course of the sentence doth plainly declare If then to dispute whether the ancient custome of the vniuersall church may be altered be madnes yea most insolent madnes what degree of phrensie wil fal to your lot that erect desend a particular late growen custome against the plaine precept of God himselfe against the Apostles prescription against the generall ancient vsage of Christs church yea against the nature of man true intent of your own seruice which you would seeme to make most account of Phi. All this is vntrue Theo. Bethinke your selfe better and you shall finde it truer than you would wish Phi. Had euer any Nation their church-seruice in a barbarous tongue before our time Theo. Make you that such a wonder which your own friends confesse was so common in the primatiue church Lyra saith In primatiua ecclesia benedictiones caetera coīa or else leauing out the c which seemeth to be added by the negligence of the Printer oīa siebant in vulgari In the primatiue church blessings and al other or other common praiers were made in the vulgar toung which the people vnderstood Eckius saith Non negamus tamen Indis Australibus permissum vt in lingua sua rem diuinam facerent quod clerus eorum hodie obseruat We deny not but the south Indians were suffered in the primatiue church to haue their diuine seruice in their mother toung which is neither Greeke Hebrew nor Latine which also their clergy at this day obserueth An other of your friends saith of the Moscouits Totū sacrū seu Missa Gētili ac vernacula lingua apudillos peragi solet The whole seruice or masse is said with thē in their natiue mother toūg The epi. also the Gospel of the daie are read to the people with a loud voice out of the chācel for their better vnderstāding Pet. Belloni saith As many as are presēt with the priest singing masse Armenia answere him in the Armenian tongue For all that stand by vnderstand the Armenian tongue which the Priest vseth in his seruice Phi. These bee schismaticall and disordered Churches Theo. In deede they know no part of your holy Fathers religion nor dominion Yet are they Christians and neerer the truth by many degrees than the church of Rome It is no schisme to bee free from him to whom they were neuer subiect and some obseruances though they haue which are both superstitious and erronious yet that is no reason to dispraise them in that wherein they followe the example of the true and sincere church of Christ and retaine that custome which they receiued from the beginning Phi. Wee may dislike them for this aswell as you may for other thinges Theo. Whether you like them or no so they doe and so haue they doone euer since they were planted in Christ euen to this our age And this their constancie you can not dislike but you must also dislike the Apostle that first taught it the primatiue church that continued it and adiudged it to bee necessary yea your holy Father himselfe that not onely would permit it when he was requested but strictly commaunde it when it was not asked Cyrillus that conuerted the people of Russia and Morauia made request to the Bishop of Rome as Pope Pius the second reporteth that hee might vse the Sclauon tongue in saying diuine Seruice to them whom hee had baptized And when the matter came to bee handled in the sacred Senate or councell chamber a number contradicting it he saith there was heard a voice as it were from heauen speaking these wordes Let euerie spirite praise the Lord and euerie tongue confesse him and that vpon the hearing thereof Cyrillus had his petition The blindnes of your holy father and his Cardinals was reproued by a voice from heauen for hauing their Seruice in an vnknowen tongue and yet you beare men in hand to dislike the late custome of your Romish Synagogue or so much as to dispute thereof as if it were not to be done is insolent madnesse Innocentius though hee were the first that brought Transubstantiation Auricular confession and deposition of Princes to bee confirmed in open councell 1215. yeares after Christ yet durst he not binde the West church to the Latine seruice throughout as you doe but gaue streit charge rather to the contrary that such as were of diuerse languages shoulde haue the praiers and sacramentes of the church in their seuerall and sundry rites and tongues as appeareth in the councell of Lateran assembled vnder Innocentius the thirde of that name Because in many places within the same citie Diocese there be mingled people of diuerse toungs hauing vnder one faith sundry rites customes we straitly commaund that the Bishops of such cities Dioceses prouide fit men which may celebrate diuine seruice and minister the church Sacramēts vnto them according to the diuersities of their rites lāguages Phi. In diuerse toūgs he saith they shal haue their seruice but not in any barbarous tongue Theo. And he that saith they shal haue their seruice in diuerse tongues confesseth there were more tongues vsed in the West church than one and taking order that seruice should be said vnto them according to the diuersities of their tongues he saw some cause why the people should vnderstand what was said in the church and if that be needfull or expedient for one nation why not for other in like manner And yet I see no restraint in the wordes but that the Moscouites Morauians others were prouided for by this Canon to haue the church seruice in their proper and natiue tongue as well as the Grecians Phi. If it were so we account it lawful for that the church of Rome did permit it Theo. Then do we account our seruice in the English tongue much more lawful chiefly for that it is warrāted by the word of God as I haue shewed and secondly for that it wanteth not the generall vse and order of Christes church in her sincerest and purest state to confirme the same Phi. Haue you the generall and ancient custom of Christes church to insure your seruice in the english tongue Theo. Wee haue for that tongue which the people vnderstand be it English Scottish or what other speech you will Phi. That any Nation praied in a barbarous tongue you haue no president in the Primatiue church Theo. This is not the first time that your teeth could not rule your tongue The
paines and to make a readier dispatch if you will be ruled by me Phi. What is it Theo. Bring vs but one father for 800. yeares that euer taught your transsubstantiation and wee will count it catholike Phi. What talke you of one You shall haue one hundreth of as auncient and catholike writers as anie were in the Church of christ for a thousand yeares after his ascending to heauen Theo. You were best take it when you be wel offered One faire and sufficient authority shall please vs better than a cartloade of names abused and places peruerted Phi. It is as easie for vs to bring them by whole hundreds A man that once supplied the same roome which you doe nowe hath produced two hundreth of them in his Diacosion Martyrion Vernierus an other of our side hath alledged 318. seuerall and sundrie writers as manie as there were Bishops in the great Councell of Nice Garetius a man of singular reading hath gathered foure hundred fourtie fiue good and substantiall Authors euen from Melchizedech to this present age besides Poets women Councels Miracles visions Iewes Ethnicks and heretiks which all beare witnes to our doctrine And if you haue not seene the bookes I will lend you them for your instruction I could be content I tell you to be at anie cost to win a soul and wish to you no worse than to my selfe Theo. Your kindnes without cause is but seruice without thankes I haue seene your Diacosion Martyrion your great vniuersal Councell militant touching the truth of the most diuine sacrament of the Eucharist assembled by Vernierus your nine orders Rancks of I know not whom digested by Garetius besides the labours trauels of many others your adherents And reading them all I find not one father that euer dreampt of your material corporal conuersion of the elements into christ for 800. yeres vpward Hyperbolical speaches I find in Chrysostom some hard similitudes in damascene others but a manifest testimonie for the real carnal presence which you defend I find none and as for the fathers which be any thing ancient they go clearely and exactly with vs in this question Phi. With you By this a man may perceiue you neuer saw them or at lest neuer read them My selfe can alleage you 500. places wherof you shall not answere one but by meere shifts iestes of tropes and figures and such like mockeries Theo. It were paynes better bestowed for you to vnderstand what you alleage than to alleage that which you vnderstand not You may wrest and misuse 500. places of the fathers as your friends before you haue done in this point your selues in other questioÌ„s haue shewed the like actiuitie But that the substance of the bread vanished by consecratioÌ„ the substaÌ„ce of Christs body really succeedeth vnder the same dimensions accidents of bread wine entereth our mouthes locally coÌ„prised within those formes for this you shal neuer shew vs any one father greeke or latin within the compas of 800. yeres after Christ. Phi. A thousand authorities can we bring you with a wette finger that shall clearly conuince the presence of Christ in the sacrament Theo. And not one of them shal conclude that maner of presence which you maintain Phi. As for the maner of his being there it forceth not much so you grant him to be really and verily present Theo. His presence there can do you litle good except the manner of his presence be likewise expressed and auouched by the places which you would bring Phi. If he be present ergo the substance of his flesh is present and that must needs be corporally locally coÌ„prised in the formes of bread wine Theo. What father saith so besides your selues Phi. They al say he is preseÌ„t Theo. And so do we Phi. In words you say it but when you come to the push you deny the truth and effect of his presence Theo. Wee do not looke you should vnderstand vs that vnderstand not your selues You haue framed of your own heades a certaine maner of Christes presence in the supper without the direction or consent of any learned or auncient father and that of al others the grossest and absurdest that could be deuised and nowe you no sooner heare the name of Christes body or blood in the mysteries but you straightway grow to a speciall conceite that your reall and carnall presence is there confirmed and confessed And this made your builders of Babel as they posted through the Fathers to note euery place and person that did but mention The body of Christ as a witnes for Transubstantiation where if it woulde haue pleased you and your fellowes to haue weighed the rules and cautions of the fathers together with their speaches and exhortatioÌ„s not to haue hunted after your owne fansies in their phrases but marked remeÌ„bred their instructioÌ„s how they would be takeÌ„ vnderstood wheÌ„ they speak of the christiaÌ„ mysteries you should haue saued a great deale of labor which now you should haue saued a great deale of labour which nowe you haue spent to no purpose gained securitie from this difficultie which hath sâ—tted your schooles and churches with a most pernicious and yet a monsterous error Phi. And wee say that you bee so blinded with presumption and rebellion against the Church of God that you will not yeelde to all the fathers that euer wrate of this matter since Christes time but because they nowe and then speake of signes and figures you turne all to tropes and metaphores as if neither Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles or their successors the Godly teachers and Pastours of his church had euer spoken properly or plainely of this sacrament but al in clouds and riddles such as neither Priest nor people that should come after could possibly conceiue and none to this day had vnderstood till you came lately to trouble the world with heresie and inâ—quitie Theo. Take your pleasures your tongues bee your owne who can tame them if you will not containe them You haue learned of your fathers to whet them like swordes and to smite with them and to shoote foorth your arrowes euen bitter wordes but the mouth that rageth with lies slanders as the wise man forwarneth destroyeth the soule and in the meane time your errors are nothing diminished or excused by your taunts or teeth-gawles As touching the matter it selfe Sacraments of their owne nature and by their first and chiefe erection are visible signes of inuisible graces so that if they be no signes they bee no sacraments and though the signes must bee diligently distinguished from the thinges yet for good causes in teaching and writing do the signes beare the names of the things them selues whose signes they are in so much that no father speaking or writing of the bread or wyne after they be once made sacraments giueth them any other
Christ if you know not whereof he spake proue no conuersion of the bread into his body For vnlesse THIS be taken to import the bread the bread by those wordes can not be changed and if not by these then surely by none Phi. I see your drift you fet about to force me to confesse that by the strict coherence of our Sauiours wordes the bread is Christ since that propositioÌ„ in precise speech is vntrue you would come in with your figures Theo. And your drift is as open that hauing deuised a reall and carnall presence to your selues by colour of Christes wordes and perceiuing the same to bee no way consequent to the letter which you pretend least you shoulde bee disproued to your faces you will not admit the perfect and plaine context of Christes wordes but stand houering about other sophisticall illusions which will not helpe you For we haue the ful confession of scriptures fathers against you that the pronoune THIS in Christes words must bee restrained to the bread and to nothing else The Lord tooke breade and when hee had giuen thankes he brake no doubt the bread that he tooke and gaue to the Disciples the selfesame that he brake saying take ye eate ye this that I giue you This is my bodie What THIS could our Sauiour mean but THIS that he gaue THIS that he brake THIS that he tooke which by the witnesse of the Scripture it selfe was bread If you suppose that he tooke bread but brake it not or brake it but gaue it not or gaue it his Disciples to eate but told them not this which he gaue them but some other thing besides that was his body you make the Lords supper a merry iest where the later end starteth from the beginning and the middle from the both The pronoune THIS of it selfe inferreth nothing and therefore except you name the bread which Christ pointed vnto when he spake these wordes you coÌ„firme not the faithes but amase the wits of your followers S. Paul proposing the Lordes Supper to the church of Corinth expresseth that very word which we say the circumstances of the Gospel import As often as ye shall eate saith he This bread and drinke this cuppe you shew foorth the Lords death till he come The bread which he brake is it not the communion of Christs body Let a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of that bread and drinke of that cup for whosoeuer shall eat this breade and drinke the cup of the Lord vnworthily shal be guilty of the body blood of the Lord. So that as wel by the cohereÌ„ce of the former words in the description of the Lords supper as by the manifest adiectioÌ„ which S. Paul putteth to the demoÌ„stratiue we conclude our sauior pronouÌ„ced of the bread that it was his body The referring of THIS to the bread all the catholik fathers that euer wrate with pen in the church of God acknowledge with one consent Iustinus Wee be taught that the sanctified foode which nourisheth our fleshe and our blood is the fleshe and blood of that Iesu. Tertullian So Christ taught vs calling bread his bodie and discussing the wordes of the supper Why saith he doth Christ there call bread his bodie Austen That which your faith requireth to be taught the bread is the body of Christ and the cup his blood Cyprian Our Lord at his table gaue to the Disciples with his own handes bread and wine on the crosse hee yeelded his body to the souldiers handes to be wounded that his Apostles might teach all Nations how bread and wine were his flesh and blood Ireneus How shall it appeare to them that the bread on which they giue thankes is the body of their Lord and the cup his blood if they graunt not Christ to be the sonne of the creator of the world How did the Lord rightly if an other were his father taking bread of this condition that is vsuall amongst vs confesse it to bee his body Hierom Let vs learn that the bread which the Lord brake gaue to his disciples is the Lords body himself saying to theÌ„ take ye eate ye this is my body Athan. or at lest the coÌ„mentary that is extaÌ„t in his name What is the bread the body of Christ. Epiphan Of that which is round in figure sensles in power the Lord would say by grace this is my body Cyrill Christ thus auoucheth and saith of the bread this is my body Theodorete In the verie giuing of the misteries he called bread his body And of all others your selues may not shrink from this resolution of Christs wordes the surest holde of your reall presence though it bee not much standeth onely on this settle For what wordes haue you besides thâ—se to proue that the breade is chaunged from his former substaunce Uerily none Then if in these wordes which should worke the change there be no mention at all of bread how can that which is no way comprised in them bee chaunged by them So miraculous a change can not be wrought by silence but rather if any such be by the power of Christes words and in those words must the thing at least be named that shall be changed Againe the demonstratiue THIS must needes note that which was there present on the Lordes table before the words of consecration were wholy repeated and the flesh of Christ coulde not be present vnder the likenesse of bread without or before Consecration ergo the pronoune inferreth not Christ but the bread which by your owne positions is not abolished but in vltimo instanti prolationis verboruÌ„ in the very last end instant of vttering these wordes And therefore remaine in his owne nature wheÌ„ the first word was pronounced Which some not the meanest men of your side foresaw very well howsoeuer you since haue taken other counsel and therefore they say Dicendum est quod hoc demonstrat substantiam panis We must behold saith Gerson that the pronoune THIS doeth demonstrate the substaunce of bread and Steuen Gardiner Christus ait euidenter hoc est corpus meum demonstrans panem Christ sayeth plainly this is my body pointing to the bread Notwithstanding afterward he changed his minde in this as in many other thinges came to Indiuiduum vagum as if Christ had saide THIS what is it I can not tell but it must needes be somwhat is my body Occam and other profound fellowes of your side bethinking themselues how your opinion might best agree with the wordes of Christ say the pronoune THIS must be referred to the bodie of Christ as if our Sauiour had said this my body is my body To make all cocksure the coronell of your scholmen I meane the gloze resolueth the doubt on this wife Solet quaeri quid demonstretur per pronomen
mysterie that Christ is eaten vnder the formes of bread and wine Theo. None at all if you set your teeth and iawes on worke to eate him as the Capernites thought they should when they peruerted the wordes of Christ. Phi. They supposed they should haue seene and tasted mans flesh which is horrible Theo. Eating as I haue shewed you doth consist not in seeing or tasting but in chamming and swallowing since you therein consent with the Capernites though you could alleadge twentie diuersities betweene their maner of eating yours yet both are corporal and contrary to that doctrine which Christ deliuered in the sixt of Iohn â— For that as I haue proued was intended and referred to the soules and spirits of men not to their throats or entrals and therefore well in couering the body of Christ and deluding your senses you may differ from the Capernites but in preparing your teeth and iawes for the flesh of Christ and in drawing his wordes from their mystical and figuratiue sense you ioyne with the Capernites against all the Catholike Fathers that euer wrate in the Church of Christ. Phi. Haue we thinke you no fathers with vs as well for the literall construction of Christs wordes as for the corporal eating of his flesh in the Sacrament Corporall I call it not because we see it or tast it as we doe other meates but because we be sure it entereth our mouthes when we receiue our rightes and is really contained in our bodies Theo. You may abuse some fathers to make a shew but otherwise you haue no ground in them either of your literall vnderstanding Christs speach or corporal eating of christs â—lesh Phi. Haue we not S. Damascen S. Epiphanius Theophilact Euthymius and others earnestly presse the literal construction of christs words against your signes and figures and as for eating the flesh of Christ with our very mouthes S. Austen S. Chrysostom S. Leo S. Gregorie S. Cyril Tertullian others are resolute whoÌ„ I trust you wil not condemn for Capernites By this way the simple learne what to looke for at your hands that wil out-face so plaine a trueth Theo. He that will be good at outfacing let him studie your Testament and hee neede none other teacher but what trueth is it that we outface Phi. Neuer father you said auouched the literal sense of Christes wordes Theo. I said no ancient father of which number I do not account these late Grecians to be And therefore if they did contradict that which Tertullian Austen Origen Chrysostome and others did teach long before them wee would not regard them but as yet I seeâ— no such thing proued by them Phi. The proofe is easie S. Damascene rehearsing the wordes of Christ This is my body immediately addeth not a figure of my body but my body not a figure of my bloud but my bloud S. Epiphanius likewise Christ said take eate this is my body Hee saide not take eate the Image of my body And Theophilact Bread is the very bodie of our Lord and not a figure correspondent For he said not this is a figure but this is my body And so Euthymius Christ said not these are signes of my body but these are my body These be manifest places and yet such is your impudencie that you affirme no father euer vrged the literall force of Christes words And so for the corporall eating of Christs flesh with our mouthes S. Augustine saith It hath pleased the holy Ghost that in the honour of so great a Sacrament our Lordes bodie should enter into the mouth before other meates And S. Chrysostome Our mouth hath gotten no small honour receiuing our Lordes bodie And S. Gregorie The bloud of the lambe is sucked not only by the mouth of the heart but also by the mouth of the body And S. Leo That is receiued by the mouth which is beleeued by the heart And Tertullian Our flesh doth feede on the bodie and bloud of our Lord And S. Cyril It was needfull that this rude and earthly body should be recouered to immortalitie by touch tast and foode of the same kind with it selfe You aske for fathers here they be both many in number and auncient in time to discharge vs that we be no Capernites and to refell your foolish vaunt that all antiquitie were of the verie same mind that you are now It may bee you neuer heard the places before If you did not I will pardon your ignorance so you repent your rashâ—es Theo. Yeas sir I haue seene them and â—â— may bee weighed them better than euer you did And notwithstanding your magnificence it will appeare you be not free from ignorance whatsoeuer you be from impudencie Phil. I will burne my cloathes to my shirt if euer you answere them Theo. But saue your skinne from the fire though you spare not other mens blood nor bones Phi. We vse you but as heretikes should be vsed Theo. If it be heresie for vs to serue god according to the Gospel of his sonne what is it for you to serue him with your own medlees Phi. You would flie the fielde rather than your life but I must keepe you to it Theo. You runne so fast from God and your Prince that you may soone ouer-goe vs if we would flie but as yet I see no cause Damascene Theophilact and Euthymius presse the letter of christes speach not to deriue thence your carnal and guâ—tural eating of christs flesh nor to controll that which Tertullian Austen Origen Chrysostome and others men of farre greater learning and authoritie than these taught long before them in the church of God but to shew that bread and wine be not only tokens and bare signes of christes fleshe and bloud but also cary with them and in them the vertue power and effect of his death and passâ—on Euthymius Christ said not these be the signes of my body and bloud but these are my bodie and bloud We must therefore NOT LOOKE TO THE NATVRE of the giftes which are proposed BVT TO THE VERTVE Against them which defend that this Sacrament doth only figure not offer signifie not exhibite grace the letter may wel be forced to proue the diuine power and operation of the mysticall elemenets Against vs which hold the visible signes in substance to bee creatures in signification mysteries in operation and vertue the things themselues whose names they bearâ— this illation concludeth nothing Yet for the better explication of him selfe and others vsing the like kind of speach Theophilact addeth this worde ONLY Marke that the bread which is eaten of vs in the mysteries Non est TANTVM figuratio quaedam carnis Domini is not an only figuring of the Lords flesh but the Lords very flesh For he saide not the bread which I will giue is a figure of my flesh but is my flesh Their meaning was as we see
Cap. 37. Ibidem epistolâ— Synodi Arimin ad Constant. Hierom. aduers. Luciferanos In the Councell of Ariminum was the communion of the whole worlde The Councell of Ariminum erred Hioron aduers. Luciferanos Hieron aduers. Luciferanoâ— Ibidem Epist. 118. Epist. 119. Onely the scriptures caâ— not erre Rom 3. Epist. 112. ad Paulin. August contra Faustum Manicheum li. 11. cap. 5. In all other writings the reader is free and not bound to beleeue them August de natura gratia contra Pelag. cap. 61. Ibidem We may iudge freely of Councels Contra FaustuÌ„ lib. 11. cap. 5. * epist. 48. * De pecca meritis remiss lib. 1. Cap. 22. * Contra Cresco lib. 2. Cap. 3.3 S. Augustine refused councels both with him and against him De vnitate ecclesiae Cap. 16. Ibidem Hilar. contra Auxentium Arrianos Princes are not bound to Councels Christ hath a vicar on earth that caÌ„ not er which is the holy Ghost Tertul. de praescriptio aduers. haereticos Idem de virginibus velandis The Pope neuer called Christs vicar but by his own flatterers The Pope may erre and can coÌ„maund neither Prince nor people The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of Luke One brother may confirme an other Psal. 51. The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of S. Luke Christ praied for Peter not that he should not erre but that he shuld not vtterly perish Chrysost. in Ioh. homil 72. Idem in Mat. homil 83. Beda in cap. â—2 Luce. To deny Christ is worse than to be deceiued in some point of saith 2. Peter 2. Reuelat. 2. Peter lost his faith when he denied christ Ambros. sermo 46. Idem sermo 47. The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of S. Luke Leo. sermo 3. in anniuersariâ— die assumptionis ad Pontificatum Leo corrupted by the Rhemists Chrysost. in Mat. homil 83. Why Christ praied for Peter by name Ibidem paulo ante Christ praied for all August quaest ex nouo TestameÌ„to quaest 75. Iohn 17. The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of Luke Iohn 16. Christs promise to al his Apostles The Rhemish Testament in the 22. of Luke Lib. q. noui Testa quaest 75. tomo 4. The wordes are inclosed with two lines in Erasmus edition not found in the old printes Praepositus Praelatus common names to all Bishops Ambros. in Psal. 43. Ibidem 1. Tim. 1. 1. Tim. 2. Philip. 1. Ambros. de dig Sacer. cap. 2. Mat. 24. Lib. 1. Epist. 3. Aug. de ciuit Dei lib. 20. ca. 9 Idem in Iohan. tract 46. This is the Rhemists coÌ„mon vse in their TestameÌ„t tothwack in a number of Fathers names to no purpose We confesse the preachinges and writinges of Peter and all the rest after the receiuing of the holie Ghost were free from error will they claime that for the Pope The Rhemish Test. 22. Lucae The Rhemish Test. 22. Lucae A noble lie of the Rhemists forced on all the Fathers with one breath Epist. 190. They say all the fathers applied this to the Pope produce none but poore Bernard Cyprian fouly wrested to make for the Pope The Rhemish Test. 22. Lucae Cyp. Epi. 55. The Romanes import the people and not the Pope Rom. 1. CypriaÌ„ spake of all the Romanes not of the Bishop of Rome Rom. 1. The true meaning of Cyprian Cypr. lib. 1. Ep. 3 May not or ought not haue accesse What non poâ—est doth signifie De regulis iuris 68. In glossa In senten Conc. Carth. sentent 1. Cyprianus * Lib. 1. Epist. 3. De orat ad Att. Gen. 18. Gen. 34. Gen. 37. Gen. 44. Iudic. 11. 2. Reg. 2. 3. Reg. 2. 3. Reg. 13. Luke 11. * Luke 14. * Luke 16. * Ioan. 6. * Ioan. 7. * 1. Corinth 12. * 2. Corinth 13. * Reuel 2. Cyprians wordes haue no agreement with the Iesuites sense Cyp. lib. 1. Epi. 3. These be plainer words for the people than the former be for the Pope Cyprian affirmeth of the Bishop of Rome that he did erre Cypr. ad Pom. contr Epi. Steph Ibidem S. Paul assureth the Romane church that it might erre Rom. 11. Origen lib. 8. in cap. 11. ad Rom. The Apostle threatneth not things impossible Hierom wrested by the Iesuites as Cyprian was before The Rhemish Testament vp on the 1. to the Romanes Hieron Apoâ—â—â— aduers. Ruff. 3. The places of Scripture before alleadged if you weigh them proue al these significations The true intent of Hieroms wordes Hiero. ad Principiam Marc. Epitapha tom 1. That come to passe in Hieroms time which the Iesuites would proue to be impossible The Rhemish Testament is an heape of Fathers abused wrested to depraue the text of the holy Ghost The Iesuites reasons to make the Pope free froÌ„ error The Rhemish Test. 22. Lucae Moses chaire had no such priuilege that it could not erre Deut. 17. Malach. 2. Moses chaire did erre Ierem. 18. Ezech. 7. 4. Kings 16. Esai 28. Would you haue clearer wordes that Moses chaire did erre Matth. 16. Matth. 15. Mark 7. Matth. 22. * Act. 23. * Act. 5. Rom. 3. It is presumption against God to make any man free from errour without sufficient proofe Christs promise to Peter pertaineth not to the Pope if it did it maketh him not free from errour Matth. 28. Christ is with euerie of the faithfull to the worldes end yet the faithfull may erre They euer dreame and neuer proue that the Pope is head of the church Ephes. 3. The elect may erre but not perish in their error Cyp. lib. 2. Ep. 3. Aug. Epist. 48. De Baptis lib. 4. cap. 5. Aug. de Baptis lib. 2. cap. 5. All men may erre Aug. Epist. 19. It is vngodly pride to think any man free from error Iohn 16. Ibidem The Apostles were guided by a speciall gift of Gods spirit that in preaching and writing they should not erre The Rhemish Test. 16. Iohn How handsomely the Iesuites plaie with Scriptures Iohn 16. A miter is no buckler against error Caus. 24. quaest 1. §. A recta in gloss ¶ Nouitaetibus What church can not erre That the whole church can not erre is no helpe for the Pope and his Cardinales Councels and Popes may erre though the whole church do not erre Alfon. aduers. haereses lib. 1. cap. 4. The wiser sort of Papists coÌ„demne them for flatterers that say the Pope can not erre Sub prelâ— Ascensiano anno Dom. 1534. Alfon. li. 1. ca. 4. Caâ—s 24. quaest 1. ¶ A recta in gloss De electio ¶ significasti * Lyra in ca. 16. Matth. * Aug. de Anco de potestat Ecclesiast quaest 1. * Anton. part 3. tit 22. cap. 3 ¶ 3 * In lib. de Potestat Papae citatur ab Anton. * Gerson in trac An liceat in caâ—s fidei à PoÌ„tifice appellare Concil Basilien epist. Synodalis 3. de authoritate Concil supra Papam Aen. Sylu. de gestis Conc. Basil lib. 1. Caiet de authoritate Papae Conc. cap. 26. 27.
yet by Gods and mans ordinance it is so diuided that euery one of you in his order and calling hath a part of our charge in so much that I should bee your admonisher and you all my coadiutors For which respect our intent is by other good meanes and by commissioners appointed for this purpose to learne and trie howe well our lieutenants fauour and execute iustice and howe religiously our Bishops liue and preach WILLING TOV ALL VVITHOVT EXCEPTION TO OBSERVE OVR COMMANDEMENT IN ALL THINGS AND HONOVR SVCH AS WE SEND FOR ANY OCCASION OR BVSINES EITHER ECCLESIASTICALL OR TEMPORAL AND IN RESPECT OF OVR AVTHORITIE NOT TO FAILE BVT PERFORME THOSE THINGS WHICH WE HAVE ENIOYNED YOV BY THEM Nowe the charge that wee giue our visitours is this First they shall indict assemblies in two or three places whither all within the limittes of their commission shall resort and there make it knowne to all men what is the summe and effect of their message to witte that wee haue appointed them for this cause that IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant can not do his duetie by reason of any impediment hee should haue recourse to them and by their helpe discharge his dutie and if the matter bee such as by their industrie can not bee redressed then shall it bee brought by them to our knowledge and againe IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant BE FOVND NEGLIGENT IN HIS OFFICE by their monition he shal be refourmed Wee charge them likewise to make knowen to all men the Chapters or Lawes QVAE GENERALITER DE QVIBVSCVNQVE CAVSIS STATVIMVS WHICH WE HAVE DECREED GENERALLY CONCERNING ALL MANER OF CAVSES and do their best to see them throughly kept of all men And if any of the things which we haue ordained and commaunded be found imperfect by some defect happily which they can not amend then shall they with speede make relation thereof to vs that we may correct that which they cannot And because the last yere our expectation was not satisfied in such sort as we looked for we will that this present yere our visitours whom wee haue allotted to this seruice haue better respect and care how euery man that we haue preferred to the gouernance of our people in his calling dischargeth his dewtie to Gods pleasure our honor the benefite of our subiects and this shall be the very course of their inquirie whether the things contained in our Capitular which we deliuered them this yere past be kept and obserued according to Gods will our commaundement Therefore about the midst of May next shall they assemble I meane our visitours euerie man in his diuision with all the Bishops Abbats Lieuetenants our fee men and aduocats the Abbesses and such as cannot come to send their proxies the liuetenant to bring with him his vnder officers and hundreders and in that conuent shall they first conferre touching Christian religion and ecclesiastical order next they shall inquire of our officers how they doe their duties last of our people in what concord and peace they liue And this inquisition shall they make so diligently and exactly that we may be trewly certified by thē of al these points And if any such cause be brought before thē which needeth their help according to the condition of the causes specified in the short rehearsal of our lawes then our wil is they shall go to the place and redresse it by the warrant of our authoritie You can neither bee so simple but you may see nor so partial but you must graunt that Ludouike and Lotharius behaued themselues as rightful superuisours of the Bishops in their Empire how they liued and preached ayding those that were hindered correcting those that were negligent in their ministeries and sent visitours to inquire and redresse by their Princely power any cause that needed reformation in Christian religion or ecclesiastical order commaunding all men generally to reuerence and obay them as wel in ecclesiastical as common wealth matters in respect of their royal authoritie What more than this doth that oth impart which you so much declaime against Or what lesse than this did Ludouike and Lotharius execute Can their proceedings please you and our words expressing the selfesame right offend you You must either reiect both or admit both they bee so neare linked you can not disseuer them I now make your selfe iudge whether these Christian and Catholike Princes were not commaunders and punishers those we call gouernours of Bishops Priests and Moncks in maters and causes ecclesiasticall Phi. I see they were but yet not supreme which is the cheefest thing that we mislike in your oth Theo. I beleeue you well for by that worde we denie Princes to bee subiect to the Popes consistorie which is the chiefest thing you respect Phi. That worde maketh them superiours to God himselfe for supreme is superiour to all neither Christes owne person nor his Church excepted Theo. Can you make such merriments when you be disposed Phi. Doth not the word inferre superiour to all or at least subiect to none Theo. Was it in question when this othe was made whether God should be superior to man or whether Princes should bee subiect to the Pope Phi. It skilleth not what was then in question these bee nowe your woordes Theo. By this cunning you may conclude all that euer wrate with pen or spake with tongue to be wicked blasphemers Phi. Why so Theo. Where the superlatiue is vsed by your rule God himselfe is not excepted And so these phrases a most wise teacher a most holy Bishoppe a most mightie prince and ten thousand such like which we find in all mens bookes and speeches bee meere impieties For they import that many bee wiser holyer and mightier than Christ himselfe or at lest as wise holy and mightie as he which is open inexcusable blasphemie Name me what father or writer you will and see by this art of yours whether I proue him not a blasphemer Phi. That is no right vnderstanding but a foolish carping at mens wordes For when we giue these titles to men sanctissimus potentissimus beatissimus the most holy father the most puissant king the most blessed Martyr we meane amongst men wee compare them not with God Theo. And since all men euen your selues speake so why doe you take that foolish aduantage at the word supreme which we vse as if we ment not amongst men but exalted Princes aboue God Phi. But the Church of Christ is not excepted and that consisteth of men Theo. If by the Church of Christ you meane the faithfull liuing on earth certainely Princes be not subiect but superiours to all Christian men Peter spake to the chosen and elect of God when hee sayde Bee subiect to the king as to the chiefe Paul willed Titus to warne not the miscreants but the beleeuers in Creta to bee subiect to principalities and powers and wrate himselfe to all the Saintes at Rome
You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope