your being Gods Church and people and I shall say more to it anon I only add now that as it is observ'd that where Religion hath been loosest there Fortune hath been most worshipped so when you had broken all natural and religious bonds you made use of the prosperous events of your enterprizes to justifie the lawfulness of them Pr. Well I see you 'll make hard shift but you 'll have something to say But can you find that we attribute to the Sacraments the vertue of working by their own efficacy the grace they signifie which you call opus operatum don 't we rather teach that nothing but Gods Grace can work any good in us and that outward means are useless without it Pa. Yes I do suppose the Sacraments are of no great account amongst you whatever is not of your own appointment is of little use or profitableness though ordained by the first Rulers of the Christian Church or by Christ himself But I could tell you of two or three things of your own devising of as great force and efficacy as any of our Sacraments that is your Covenant your powerful Preaching and your extemporary Prayers of the first I have spoken enough already how you made it a most precious and soul-saving Ordinance and equalled it at least to the Covenants God hath been pleased to make with Mankind wherefore it was to be taken standing uncovered and one hand bare and lifted up which is more of honour and reverence than you afford to the blessed Sacrament of the Body and Bloud of Christ which you receive sitting upon your tails or to any other part of Divine Worship If any one will see more of it let him read Thomas Mokett's Sermons on that subject printed 1642. That your Preaching is likewise very powerful I have evinc'd before in that you call it the Gospel the Word of God and make it in a manner equal to Scripture as proceeding from the same Spirit as Mr. Marshal told the Parliament at a Thanksgiving-Sermon for some good success of yours S. Marshal 1643. p. 3. I should send you home presently and command all of you not to weep to day but to eat the fat and drink the sweet but that I have first some banquetting stuff for your souls such as God bath brought to my hand sure they might make a very soul-refreshing meal on what God himself had prepared Mr. Palmer also pag. 27. How few come prepared to the Ordinances your preaching and Praying Who is it that considers the weightiness of the business he is about that he is now about a soul-saving or a soul-destroying work And accordingly in your Catechising your Converts if they be aged the grand question is When and at what time they were converted for your Preaching works Conversion even as Strong-drink works Madness When you have taught malicious or ignorant people to rail at the Church and to hate it and those that side with it then the powerful Ordinance of Preaching hath done the feat and the man is converted even as the weak-brain fellow that hath lost his reason by too much drinking As for your Praying being it is by the Spirit no wonder if it works strangely Mr. Vavasor Powel a holy man The History of his Life 1671. p. 16. and well worth to be credited though somewhat more Fanatick than you for having a most authentick Testimony and Approbation of fourteen of the chiefest Divines in the Assembly did by his Prayers cure one Mrs. Watkins of the Parish of Laningg in the County of Brecknock p 18. who for two years together had kept her bed and one Elizabeth Morris of New Radnorth who was troubled with the Falling-sickness and Convulsion-Fits and did once in a wet Harvest stop a most fierce rain p. 19. in seeking the Lord and begging for fair weather This will not seem strange if we consider what one of you said That God had kindled the fervent fire of Supplication in your hearts Jehovah-Jireh p. 31. Oh how did the Lord before and ever since this Parliament began stir up and inflame the fire of supplicating faith or faithful supplication and fervent zeal in private humiliation to seek the Lord in the face of Christ for mercy and reconcilement to our poor Land And then how could that fire that came from the Lord do less than consume and devour every thing that stood in its way As Dr. Owen said to the House of Commons Joh. Owen 1659. p. 14. The Adversaries openly confest That there was nothing left for them to overcome or to overcome them but the Prayers of the Fanatick Crew And as Mr. Coleman said to the same Auditory We prayed at Nazeby 1645. p. 16. 17 they plotted see what end the Lord hath made come and behold the works of the Lord. And at Langport and Bridgewater they could not stand for God was against them We prayed we fought Th Good 1645. p. 42. we conquered certainly the power of Prayers is destructive And Mr. Goodwin God hath given to those his Saints the Rebels a Commission to set up and pull down by their Prayers and Intercessions Whence by the way might be gathered that you have some kindness for us being you pull'd none down but the Church of England But possibly the efficacy of your Prayers did not so much as the reach of your Piques and Muskets However you see here is opus operatum with a vengeance all the difference is that our Sacraments are of Christs Institution and work Grace only whereas your powerful Ordinances are of your own devising and besides Grace can work destruction Pr. And can you find this one thing more about the Sacraments that we take the Cup away from the people as is the order of your Church positively against an express Command of Christ who said Drink ye all of this Sure you won't say we are guilty of dispensing with such an express Injunction of Christ as you do in this case Pa. No you never took the blessed Cup from the people but you went very near to take away from them the sacred Bread and all You know how seldom and in how few places that holy Sacrament was administred in your reforming times and you know how little regarded still by many of your party since you could preach and pray by the Spirit And yet we are in good hopes that you 'll comply with us in this too for that in another case you can dispense with as absolute a command of Christ that is concerning the Lords Prayer of which he commanded When you pray say Our Father c. Luk. 11.2 But your wisdom hath found it out that 't was enough to say the sense of that Prayer without repeating the very words and then if you should use it the people might be brought to believe that a set Form of Prayers is lawful according to so great an example which might be a great prejudice to your more
make themselves blind that they may be led by those that pretend to Infallibility and a supreme Authority in things of Faith As for the Decisions of your Popes and Councils it hath been observed by learned men of ours that they are also subject to mis-interpretation and that they have not been able so much as to compose any one of those Differences that have been and are still amongst you And indeed why should not God speak as plain as the Pope in what is absolutely necessary to be known Is it because he is not able or because he is not willing we should know the truth But Friend whilst you tax the Scripture with obscurity and make the people think 't is a dangerous Book see whether you do not give the lie to God himself who saith Ps 19 7 8. The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple according to Rome it should have been making the simple to err The Statutes of the Lord are right rejoycing the heart the commandment of the Lord is pure enlightning the eye not blinding or darkning the eye Psal 119 105. In another place Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path Could any thing be more express against the charge of obscurity 2 Cor. 4.3 4. And so S. Paul saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that perish in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them It seems the Gospel hath a light that shines unto men and the devil endeavours to blind them that they may not see it and whether the Pope be not an useful instrument to that effect let them judge that are not yet quite blind Sure if there was so great a danger in reading the Scriptures God would not have commanded his people so absolutely to study his Law Christ would not have preached to the multitudes for his words might be misinterpreted as well spoken as written and the Apostles should not have directed their Epistles to all the people of Corinth Ephesus c. We should rather have been forbidden searching the Scriptures and sent to his Holiness to know what we must believe and do P. Sir you are tedious in your Reasons and Proofs and whereas I cite only one of our approved Doctors at a time and that in few words you bring me I do n't know how many places of Scripture I had rather you would tell me what Luther or the Church of Geneva have resolv'd in these Controversies G. 'T would be to no purpose for we regard not their opinions nor those of any private men but as far as they agree with the truth Our Church is founded upon that Catholic and unchangeable truth which God hath revealed in the Sacred Books and which hath been and is still entertain'd by all those that own the Fundamentals of Christianity Therefore as I have told you 't will be the shortest way for me to back those Doctrins of our Church which oppose any of yours by the authority of Gods Revelations his most Holy Word which is a sufficient foundation for us to ground our faith upon P. As far as I can see you are run a great way off from us for we as many as own the Pope to be the Head and Monarch of the Church never mind what the Scripture saith we follow blind-fold the Judgment of our Church as a most infallible guide Bellar. de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. 4. We believe that neither the Pope nor the particular Church of Rome can err in things of Faith Non solum Pontifex Romanus non potest errare in fide sed neque Romana particularis Ecclesia No Sir take it from Bellarmin Bellar. de Eccles l. 3. c. 14. It is absolutely impossible that the Church should err in any thing whether it be necessary or not Nostra est sententia Ecclesiam absolute non posse errare nec in rebus absolute necessariis nec in aliis G. And you Sir take it from experience that the Church of Rome could and hath greatly erred in many things if it be an error to make huge additions to the antient Creeds and to go directly against the Word of God And though it be impossible that ever the Universal Church should forsake and deny the saving truths of Christian Religion because of the Promise of Christ Matth. 16.18 Yet any one particular Church or Society of Christians though never so great may err and that in Fundamentals as we know of some Pseudo-Councils that have broach'd or confirm'd damnable Heresies And accordingly the Scripture saith Rom. 3.4 Let God be true and every man a liar the Bishop of Rome himself is not excepted And doubtless if the Church of Rome was infallible and the only guide that can lead us to heaven God who hath revealed to us the way to happiness would not have omitted so essential a thing But instead of a command wholly to rely on the judgment of the Pope speaking ex Cathedra we are commanded to prove all things 1 Thess 5 2â— â— Joh. â— 1 and to hold fast that which is good and again to try the spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are come out into the world Now how shall we try them but by the Word of God and if we find you do not follow it why should we any longer follow you Find me as many Texts out of Gods Wordâ— to prove that your great Bishop is infallible and that we are all bound to believe every thing he saith as I have produc'd already for the Divine Authority of Scripture and its sufficiency to bring us unto Salvation and then we 'll weigh them together and my faith shall follow the heavier Scale But when we prove and demonstrate that you err and go directly against Scripture for you to come and say that it is impossible because you are infallible and free from all error is to my thinking a very odd and unsatisfactory answer P. Well if you talk of Scripture till to morrow I am sure ours is the Antient Catholic Church without the which there is no salvation But your Religion is a new upstart you cannot shew me where it was and the Professors of it two hundred years ago G. As for the Professors where they were and that there were many even in the highth of Popery is a long Historical labour but ready done to my hand by several learned men the Author of Catalogus testium Verit. Abbot Vsher Fox White c. They were in the Eastern and Greec Churches much larger than that of Rome they were amongst you some declar'd and marty'd for it some for peace sake living in the Communion of your Church and some conceled for fear of your cruelty sighing in secret for Liberty and
indanger but in no wise advance your Salvation What makes us admit of a possibility of your being sav'd is because you hold still the same Creed with us and because though you have much shaken and weakned yet ye have not quite overthrown the Foundation that is Jesus Christ and his saving merits which we hope will avail to those of your Church that trust in them though they ignorantly believe those things as would make them ineffectual if understood or relied on As for your so much cryed up Succession it signifies no more than this that now the Pope is Bishop of the same Town as St. Peter was or at least a Town of the same name for old Rome hath been destroyed long agone But pray supposing that St. Peters Successors were to be the Heads of the Church who told you that he did not leave that priviledge at Antioch where his Sea was first How many Ruptures and Schisms hath there been in your Succession and how many hath there been of your Popes guilty of the greatest Impieties and worst of Heresies Your own Authors can inform you as also how good and bad Orthodox and Heretick Bishops have succeeded one another in all Seas But make the best of it as you can what is it to the truth or untruth of those points we differ about Because now _____ sits in the same Chair as St. Peter did therefore there is a Purgatory and men ought to Worship Images and the Pope is infallible c. A very Logical Inference as good as that of the man who because he sate in Tullies Pew would needs perswade himself and others that he had Tullies Eloquence But there is Miracles daily wrought in your Church by some Saint or other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This is something indeed but 't is common to all Religions Monsieur Bernier a man of your Church will tell you as an eye-witness of it that the Turks and Gentiles pretend to the same and are more perswaded of the truth of their Miracles than I believe many in your Church are of the truth of yours But let me tell you that Miracles are for Infidels not for Believers St. Paul could not heal Trophimus to him a beloved Christian though among the Unbelievers he could even raise up the dead We believe the Religion Preached by the blessed Apostles upon the account of those Miracles they wrought when they were yet alive without their Reliques and Images work the same wonders now we are perswaded of the truth of what they then delivered And the truth is you are so your selves You don't pretend your new Miracles to confirm those Essential Doctrines of the Christian Religion which you and we are agreed about Your greatest Miracle-mongers have hardly reported any one Miracle wrought these five or six hundred years in these parts of the World to authorize Christian Religion or to prove the Doctrine of the blessed Trinity or of the two Natures united in Christ into one person about which points were most of the ancient Heresies or any one Article of the Creed they are all to confirm your new-found Doctrines The Cures as the Saints work upon those that worship their Images the appearing of dead Folks to beg for Masses and Prayers the return of Souls out of Purgatory to tell how hot the fire is and how well worth ones money Indulgences are the wonders done by your Fryars or the Founders of their Orders or of some one who is to be Canonized and most of them so ridiculous and so absurd that I believe the most serious Bigot amongst you can hardly hold laughing at the reading of your Legends and Books of Miracles And so of those three things you so much relied on the first is against you the second signifies nothing and the last exposeth to contempt those Doctrines it should justifie P. Well I did not think that you could say so much for your selves and I assure you I shall hereafter have a better opinion of you than ever I had thus much at least shall I be profited by our long Discourse and now Sir fare you well I thank G. Nay don't thank me 't is I should thank you for telling me so plainly those Doctrines of your Church we disagree about and which usually you so misrepresent to those of our Religion that they hardly ever know the truth of what your Church believes But pray don't go away yet I 'll help you to that company as you will like much better than mine I 'll tell you whose 't is when first I have desired these two things of you First that you would consider how greatly suspicious it is that your Church maintains those Doctrines we call Errours more for their profitableness to her than for any other reasons because they all tend to the increasing of her Riches or Authority The Popes Infallibility and his Power of disposing of all the World for the good of Souls the exemption of the Clergy from the power of the Civil Magistrate the requisiteness of their intention in the administring of your Sacraments how powerful how honourable and withal how dreadful must the belief of these make your Church and Church-men The Doctrine of Purgatory of Jubilees Pardons Indulgences and worshipping of Saints the best part whereof is the offering to them what Estates what Riches what a world of profit doth it bring to the Head and all the Members of your Clergy In those points of Christian Religion that concern not her Interest your Church is sound and Orthodox those beggerly Heresies of the Arians Eutichian Macedonians c. are condemned and detested by her as much as ever they were by the first Councils yours are Golden Errours if they are gross and palpable yet they are profitable and advantageous The Pope is none of those mean Souls that will hold erroneous Opinions meerly out of perverseness and obstinacy Si Jus violandum c. si Religio adulteranda regnandi causa if he errs at least he shall reign by it And so now reciprocally the Popes Greatness is the best argument to maintain those Errours whereby he got it the splendor of his own and the interest he hath in the Courts of several Princes the dependency all the Clergy hath upon him the numerous Legions of Souldiers he hath quartered in all Abbeys and Monasteries and the influence they have upon the common people his Inquisitions and his Ravilliacks these be the best proofs to evidence the truth of those Doctrines we have rejected as well as to uphold his Pontifical Chair over the Throne of Christian Princes The other is that remaining in the Communion of your Church you would think those the most substantial Articles of your Faith which were delivered by the Apostles confirm'd by the first Councils and now believ'd by you and us together and that upon them you would lay the greatest stress of your future well-being You cannot but see by what I have objected out of Gods Word
doth communicate rare secrets to certain known and chosen men to Prophets Prophecies Christ to his Disciples Gospel-secrets Doctrinal-secrets God to men of publick spirits secrets of State and we have seen such admirable experiences of Gods mercy in this kind within these five years that our Posterity will scarcely believe what we have seen God imparts mysterious secrets to his chosen people some secrets to make them his friends other secrets after they are his friends convincing secrets humbling secrets converting secrets Don't you think that these secrets are as bad as Latine Again if I may cite the words of one who was somewhat nearer to the Lord than you Thomas Brooks in a Sermon of his 1648. p. 19. O if God would raise up Parliament-men and men in the Army and in the City and round the Kingdom to more spiritual acquaintance with himself to more internal knowledge we should find that they would do abundantly more gloriously for it is want of an internal spiritual knowledge of God that men are Newters Apostates c. As you would do glorious and honourable things look to this that ye have an internal knowledge and spiritual acquaintance with God and this will enable you to do Exploits If you would do gloriously keep your Evidences for Glory always bright and shining soil not your Evidences for Glory And p. 20. If Parliament-men and men in all the Kingdom would believe more gloriously they would do more gloriously for God Spiritual internal knowledge and acquaintance bright Evidences believing gloriously I should think these as hard to be understood by ordinary people as an Ave Maria yet doubtless your people must needs be very knowing when you find them with Books whose very Titles if well understood would be able to open the seven Seals Jos Caryl Preach of Lincolns-Inn 1644. The Saâ—nts thankful acclamation at Christs Resumption of his great power and the Initials of his Kingdom A Thanksgiving Sermon for one of your Victories at Selby in York-shire The Thoughts of the Almighty A Sermon preacht before the Mayor by a Divine of the Assembly wherein 't is like those thoughts had been revealed to him John Strickland 1644. Such Books must needs give great instruction to thâ— people and the light of this following Doctrine would questionless expel even an Egyptian darkness T. Palmer ibid. Who would not now desire to close with Christ and love Christ and walk with Christ yea who would not be rouled up and wholly inclosed in Christ The many Sermons you printed twenty years agone are for the most part full of such insignificant canting and unintelligible mysteries Now I say it matters not whether it be English or Latine as long as the people doth not understand both will keep them equally ignorant I note only these two differences because they make for us First that our Priests understand their Latine whereas your Rabbies themselves cannot make sense of many of their English Mysteries And secondly that if our people are ignorant at least they are conscious of it and therefore do follow the Church whereas your Disciples when they have got by heart your empty phrases are so self-conceited of their great skill in discerning the things of the Spirit that they judge all others blind that won't admire them and will venture to expound the hardest places in Scripture and sometimes leave you and set up for themselves Pr. The Canons and Injunctions of your Church and the numberless Ceremonies she hath appointed you observe with as much strictness as if they were commanded by God himself and so you make your own devices equal to Gods Ordinances I am sure we do quite contrary for we allow nothing to be done in Gods service but what he hath appointed himself and we will have Scripture for the very Circumstances of Divine Worship Pa. I remember indeed that five of your Doctors told us in an Apology they presented to the Parliament Jer. Bur. Will. Bri. Ph. Nye Syd Sam. Th. Good pag. 10. That they were certain there was in Scripture Rules and ruled Cases for all occasions whatsoever if we were able to discern them But I never heard that they had found out only so much as enough to determine all the Circumstances of Gods Worship However I am sure you have by far out-done us in the magnifying and imposing of your own inventions You told us that if your intended Reformation which was doubtless a device of your own did not take Christianity should go near to be lost The Minister of Ashford in Kent in a Sermon before the Committee of that County informs them of the present danger of loosing the Christian Religion through all the Churches of the World Jos Poden 1644. p. 30. if they should be careless and neglect the opportunity put into their hands The Lord saith he hath set this as a prize but we must run for it this is proposed as a Crown to the Saints but we must fight for it yea and reason good George Gillespie 1645. p. 17. for that Reformation was according to the mind of Christ saith a Minister of Edinburgh to the Commons at Westminster I confess you have rejected the ancient Ceremonies of the Church all that was not of your devising as Mr. Calamy told the Parliament We that live under the Gospel know that the worship of God the more spiritual the more beautiful it is in the eyes of God who is a Spirit and that the outward pomp in Gods service is an attire more fit for the Whore of Babylon than for the modest Spouse of Christ and that Musick in Gods service though it may please the ears of men yet it is unpleasing in the ears of God if you 'll take his word for it But what was of your own inventing O that is much made of Your Presbyterian Government was said to be of Christs own Institution F. Cheynel Serm. 1646. Ep. Dedic Ch. Love at Uxb. p. 20. so the Parliament was taught and you grac'd it with glorious Epithets as in these lines God is feeling the pulse of this Nation looking how we are affected me thinks I hear the Lord asking the Inhabitants of this Kingdom Will you have your Bishops your Common-Prayer-Book c. or will ye have the Gospel in power a reformation in purity your Assemblies refin'd your pollutions removed and the Government of my Son Establisht in the midst of you And so the setling of your Discipline was the setling Christ in his Throne as Mr. White hath it in the Preface to his Centuries 1643. Let us set hand and heart and shoulder and all to advance the Lords Sion to a perfection of beauty and to set up Christ upon his Throne And so another great One of yours S. Marshal Serm. to the Parl. 1643. p. 19. Did ever any Parliament in England lay the cause of Christ and Religion to heart as this hath done Did ever the City of London the rest
make more Saints Oh it will be a comfortable work to gather and order Saints of our own making Nay though some of the Saints were froward and perchance unruly yet because they helpt to do the work of the Lord they were not to be blotted out of the Calendar for he saith a little before Saints must not be persecuted though they be peevish nay desperate I must not out of a sullen humour deny a peevish Saint the right-hand of fellowship But enough of this you shall find scattered up and down this Book Now as for your keeping of days for the old Saints I confess you are not for that neither do you keep any for Christ that would be you know what But you know also that when the designs of the new Saints were blest with success there was by Authority a day kept in remembrance of it with much solemnity So it seems the destroying of the Kings Forces was a mercy great enough to make a Holy-day of it but it would be Idolatry to do the same in remembrance of those precious mercies the Church receives from what Christ did and suffered for her and his holy Apostles after him As for praying to the ancient and despised Saints it would be to no purpose your new ones having got their place and belike their power too we have seen already that your prayers are effectual beyond what their intercessions could be which is the reason I suppose that when any amongst you is going a Journey or hath some other design in hand or feels the want of any temporal or spiritual thing he desires the prayers of the Saints in your Conventicles So there appears to me no other difference in the case but that our Saints are dead and Canonized by the Pope whereas yours for the most part are alive and of your own making Now I hope I have satisfied you and made it appear that you come much nearer to Popery than the Church of England which by your own confession hath nothing common with us that 's bad but a few Ceremonies and this of order which don't much concern Religion and which according to your Chronology were in the Christian Church long before Popery whereas you own both in belief and practice many of the Popish Doctrines which are counted the worst of our errours only you disguise them a little and put them in a Presbyterian Garb. Pr. Worthy Sir you might have spar'd your great pains for all you have said will not perswade any one man that we have any good will for the Papists 't is too well known that there is an irreconcileable antipathy betwixt them and us No we detest those opinions and practices of yours which you would perswade the world we approve and imitate and we agree with you in nothing that other Protestants disagree in Pa. Yes we do we both hate the Church of England I am sure we are agreed in that except you have gone beyond us as I remember Mr. Love said when there was an overture for peace At Uxbridge pag. 42. Is it likely to have peace with such men as these We can as soon make fire and water to agree I had almost said reconcile Heaven and Earth But there is enough said already to prove that As for your disclaiming friendship with us it only perswades me that you are of those generous Friends who oblige people behind their backs without desiring that any notice should be taken of it for to use Mr. Loves words pag. 22. When â—ou had put down the Pests and Plague-sores of the Kingdom Episcopacy and Common-Prayer Books you thereby advanced our interest greatly and did us a notable piece of service for then you left no visible Church no known Rules of Doctrines no set form of Government and Discipline so that whilst your tedious Rabbies were hammering in their brains the new form of a future Church according to their several fancies or according to the Pattern in the Mount the people were fain to betake themselves some to the Communion of our Church as not a few did and other some to Madness anâ— Enthusiasm as did a great many more And besides the scandal which you brought upon the first Reformation by your fine doings was so great that thanks be to you it hath perswaded a great many that there is no safety but in the Church of Rome where there is a constant union and order So we find a Book printed in 1652. call'd A Beacon set on fire or an Information of the Stationers to the Parliament concerning the great advancement the Papists made and the many Books they printed as also the many blasphemous Books which others put out And in the seasonable Exhortation of the London Ministers 1660. they tell us pag. 10. That all manner of blasphemous and horrid Opinions were openly written and published that there was in many Atheism and contempt of Religion in others Scepticism and Ireesolution in many and that some were grown to that height of wickedness as to worship the Devil himself And there they complain also That some by their back-sliding and apostacy fell from the truth to Popery as being the only Religion wherein unity and order was retained All which how naturally they issued from your late doings and how much the Pope and Devil were beholding to you for I leave to your own conscienciousness to consider And one thing more that makes me believe that you have more kindness for us than you own by words is that you destroy'd the King and the Church of England by the same means that were appointed by Campanelia a cunning Politician and a great Enemy to Protestants pag. 160. The English Bishops it should have been Puritans are to be exasperated and put into fears and jealousies by telling them that the King of Scotland King James turned Protestant out of hope but that he will quickly return to the former Religion when he is establisht in the English Throne The same advice is also lately given by the Marquiss de C. in his Politique de France in that Chapter that treats of England That counsel was followed by you and prov'd successful the outcry whereby you rais'd the people against our late martyr'd Sovereign was Popery Rome Babylon therefore after all this judge you whether we must not be very ungrateful if we did not ingenuously acknowledge that we are highly beholding to you Pr. All that signifies nothing for we differ from the Church of England only in some few Ceremonies being agreed as to the Essentials both of Doctrine and Discipline We honour the first Reformators of this Church and we are perfectly agreed with the reformed Churches beyond Sea which we love and reverence and desire to imitate and when you have said all you can this will be truth still and I am sure will be believ'd so to be by all rational men Pa. I know that one of your Brethren an ancient Sophister in his last scribbling against Doctor
Reformation But you may satisfie your self fully in their Books As for our Religion It was where it had been above a thousand years in the Holy Scripture And suppose what is utterly false that soon after its being written all Christian Churches had been so corrupted as to own fifteen hundred years together those Errors which now are amongst you yet still the Scripture had been the same as much to be obeyed and followed as if it had always been so 2 King 22. When Josiah had sound the Book of the Law he did not fling it by because it had been hid and neglected during the reign of Manasseh and Amon his Fathers but he caused it to be read before all the people Ibid. 23. that they might observe what was conteined in it So now we have the Holy Scriptures read and preached to us we must not reject them to follow the Customs of some of our Fore-Fathers in whose time they were hid and disregarded for they are as much the Rule of Faith as if they had never been disown'd But I say farther that our Religion was in those Churches in the East and South which never own'd Popery and even amongst you our Religion was professed you believed all along those three Creeds which you and we do still retein which contein the Articles of our Faith but not the new additions which are particular to Rome The Popes universal Supremacy and his Infallibility Transubstantiation Worshipping of Images Purgatory Indulgences c. These are neither in Scripture nor in the first Councils nor in the Writings of the Antient Fathers not so much as in your Creeds an evident mark of their novelty but in the late Councils and Constitutions of the Popes We confess indeed that there is an universal Church out of which there is no salvation according to that known saying of S. Cyprian Deum non potest c. He can be none of Gods children who is not a son of the Church But that Church is the Christian not the Roman Church and to know which is the Christian Church or which is the purest of Christian Churches for they are all Christian in some measure that own Christ we must not consult humane Histories for they cannot inform us of that and if they could we must not build our faith upon mens report De Sacra l. 2. c. 21. Bellarmin saith of humane Histories Faciunt tantum bumanam fidem cui falsam subesse potest that they only beget a human faith which may be erroneous Wherefore in the Controversie betwixt us which is the purest Church we must not search old Records and Chronicles to see which was the oldest the most visible or the most large and flourishing Church that is not the Question and if it were still human Histories cannot be the ground of a Christian Faith but we must examin which agrees best with Holy Scripture which we all acknowledge to be the Word of God for no doubt the true Church wherein Salvation may be had is that which holds that Doctrin which God himself hath reveled to Mankind whatever her condition may have been in times past P. There may be something considerable in what you say but you Heretics have strange cunnings and subtilties to justifie your Opinions and yet still for all you have said you are no better than Rebels against your spiritual Sovereign you are Schismatics undutiful Children that have forsaken your Mother the Church The true and only Church wherein Salvation is to be obtein'd guided and governed by the Vicar of Christ upon earth our holy Father the Pope Vna est tantum Ecclesia sub regimine unius Christi in terris Vicarii Romani Pontificis Bellar. de Eccl. l 3. c. 2. But pray do not make such a tedious Discourse as you have just now G. Good Sir sometimes short Questions cannot be answered in few words I could propose one to you much like that as you put to me which I believe would take a great deal of your time to answer that is Where your particular Religion your sacrificing of the real and corporal body and bloud of Christ for the sins of the living and the dead your Worshipping Images and Saints and making them your Intercessors your Purgatory Indulgences c. Where was all that in the time of Christ and his Apostles Whereabout can it be found in Scripture or in the antient Creeds or in the four first General Councils or in the three or four first Centuries But I will not put you to so long and impossible a Task As for our forsaking the Communion of the Church of Rome we were absolutely bound and in a manner forc'd to do it because of the many errors which had crept and been brought into it by the Ignorance Pride Avarice and Ambition of the late Popes of Rome and their Partizans and which were confirm'd by your Church and defended with that violence that it was death to any man to speak in the least against them Now you know 't is a Rule agreed on of all sides that he is not guilty of Schism that separates but he that gives a just cause of Separation wherfore I retort the charge upon you of being Schismatics except you can prove by the Word of God those Doctrins of yours we have rejected to be Divine and Orthodox for we have left your Church upon this account that you had perverted the truth of God and added many false opinions to it which ye impos'd upon the people as if they had been Articles of Faith And we find it in Scripture Ro. 16.17 Mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the Doctrin which ye have learned and avoid them 't is not said except it be the Church of Rome And in another place Though we or an angel from heaven preach unto you beyond or over and above in the Greec 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the vulgar praeterquam quod what we have preached Gal. 1.8 let him be accursed the Pope himself you see is not excepted Again we have left the Communion of your Church because it was Schismatic itself in that it had forsaken the Doctrin taught and believed in the Primitive Church We have come out of Rome to return into the more antient and universal Church We have left the Pope to follow Christ and his Apostles and we have forsaken you no farther than you had forsaken the truth The antient Creeds the first Councils many good and Fundamental Doctrins we hold together in these we hold Communion with you We reject your Communion only in those new Doctrins which ye have superadded to the antient and divine Faith of Christians And so likewise we rebel not against the Pope only we set God above him I 'll still acknowledge him to be a Bishop and the Patriarch of the West and perhaps I had been civil enough never to have disputed his Infallibility and spiritual Sovereignty though I find nothing
for it in Scripture had I not found that he hath really erred and that very grosly whence I infer that therefore his Infallibility and supreme Authority are Chimeras mere devices of his own brain the which I am in no wise bound to obey being they pervert and oppose the plainest truths in the New Testament As that Christ is now in heaven by his bodily presence and not on the Altars as it is in the Creed he is ascended into heaven from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead and in Acts 3.20 Whom the heavens must contain until the restitution of all things That we are forgiven and cleansed by the death and merits of Christ not by Purgatory and Indulgences 1 Job 1.7 And the bloud of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins ibid. 2.2 He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world That the offering of himself on the Cross hath fully satisfied for sin and that his sacrifice needs not be renewed daily and be offered corporally in the Mass for the sins of the living and the dead as you teach and do Heb. 9.26 But now once in the end of the world he hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself c. In those things that are evidently against the Word of God we are resolv'd to follow Scripture rather than the head of your Church and we 'll rather for ever break with him than to suffer him to put out our eyes that so he may guide us at his own pleasure P. Yea those be the fruits of translating the Bible and performing Divine Service in the vulgar Tongues every one of you can find fault with the Doctrins and Constitutions of the Church and talk Scripture from morning to night we see among your selves what Disorders it hath caused If your Clergy had been wise enough to have still retein'd the Latin Tongue in all their Ministrations the people could have dislik'd and censur'd nothing 't was sufficient for them to have light enough to follow their guides more submission and obedience with less knowledge had done better Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 2. c. 15. That hath been the wisdom of our Church to keep the Scripture and the publick prayers of our Church out of the peoples reach by forbidding them to be read in any vulgar tongue Catholica Ecclesia prohibet ne in publico communi usu Ecclesiae Scripturae legantur vel canentur vulgaribus linguis ut in Concilio Tridentino SS 22. Can. 9. Sed contenti sumus tribus illis linguis quas Dominus titulo crucis suae honoravit G. Because some men stumble and fall at noon-day must the Sun be charged with a fault that proceeds from their heedlesness and would it become one to say that therefore 't is safer to grope in the dark because then people tread more warily Or must therefore mens eyes be put out because then they shall be willing to be led and to follow their guides S. Peter saith that the unstable and unlearned in his time wrested some difficult things written by Saint Paul and other Scriptures to their own destruction Yet he doth not say therefore let not the common people read them but rather dedicates his Epistle to all those that were partakers of the Christian Faith and exhorts them to grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ibid. v. 18. S. Paul reckons Idolatry Heresies and Schisms among the fruits of the flesh Gal. 5.20 but doth not any where impute them to the reading of Holy Scripture and it hath been observ'd that the perversness of men of great Learning hath been the cause of Heresies and not the mistakes or ignorance of ordinary people in reading the Bible However we have a whole Chapter in the New Testament against the speaking in an unknown tongue as you do in all your Churches 1 Cor. 15.11 If I know not the meaning of the voice I shall be unto him that speaketh a Barbarian and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian unto me that 's the relation betwixt your Priests and your people they are Barbarians one to another the whole Chapter is to that purpose and would be too long to be transcrib'd But if Scripture had been silent in this one would think that common Reason would have kept men from a practice so absurd and ridiculous that a man should present a petition and know not what he asks and be taught his duty by words he doth not understand is a strange and incredible thing which Reason alone confutes most strongly And yet for all this I do hugely commend the wisdom of your Church in this particular for that hath maintain'd the Popes Religion and Credit for some hundreds of years the understanding of Mass and Scripture hath already prov'd fatal to his authority and should once the rest of his flock be able to compare both together 't is to be fear'd he that hath rewarded many of his friends with the gift of titular Bishopricks might come to be himself a titular Bishop P. I see you value an universal Council as little as you do Bellarmin alone and have as many things to object against it I wonder how you dare in any wise oppose the authority of such an Assembly and think your Judgment is to be prefer'd to theirs G. And I wonder how you can call the Council of Trent universal when there was none in it of the Clergy of the Reformed Churches which are almost as large and populous here in the West as those of the Roman Religion But especially because none of the Christians of Aethiopia nor of those that are subject to the Patriarchs of Antioch and Constantinople whose Jurisdiction is of a far larger extent than that of the Bishop of Rome were present at it Pray did you never hear that a great Company of Arrians met once together and confirmed their Errors and cursed all those that would not embrace it and call'd themselves an Universal Council just so did that Company of Papists that met at Trent But had they been twice as many more you should not wonder how I dare oppose them but rather consider whether what I say be rational or no and whether what you call my private judgment be not rather the express words of Scripture But pray proceed and tell me what your Church thinks of Images and Saints for we are told that you worship them P. Yes Bellar. de San. beat l. 1. c. 19. and that very devoutly and to our great advantage by making religious Invocations to them whether they be men or angels Sancti sive angeli sive homines pie atque utiliter invocantur G. Now I wonder too how you dare do that for I find that when Cornelius would have worshipped S. Peter the holy Apostle took him up saying Acts 10.26 that he himself was a man also And that when S. John
fell at the Angels feet to worship him Rev. 19.10 the Angel hindred him saying See thou do it not I am thy fellow-servant worship God Who told you 't is more lawful now Or that they are not still of the same mind for belike the Worship of Latreia was not offer'd them and how can you call on the Saints for help being you have not yet put them in your Creed for S. Paul saith Rom. 10.14 How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed And more than so he gives us warning against the plausibility of the Doctrin of worshipping Angels Col. 2.18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of Angels intruding into those things which he hath not seen vainly puft up by his fleshly mind I take the practice of our Church in worshipping God alone to be much safer for we are bid by our Lord Jesus Christ so to do Mat. 4.10 Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve It is said in the Acts Acts 2.11 Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved Could you produce as much for the Worshipping of Saints we would do it as devoutly as you But rather to the contrary we find that when the Apostles desired Christ to teach them to pray not only to pray God but in general to pray Luc. 11.1 he told them When ye pray say Our Father c. there was not a syllable for the Saints And S. Paul when he had said Heb. 4.16 That Christ is our High-Priest in heaven infers let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace that we may obtein mercy He doth not say Let us go to the Saints that they may obtein mercy for us Nothing is to be found in Scripture but what discountenanceth the Practice of your Church in Praying to Saints Pray what reasons have you for it besides the command of the Pope P. There may be many but I can tell you of two very strong ones First Because they know our necessities and the very thoughts of our hearts and so can hear our prayers at all times Bellarmin is express in it Bellar. de San. beat l. 1. c. 20. Non verum est quod assumitur Sanctos ignorare quod ab illis petimus nam etsi dubitatio esse possit quemadmodum cognoscant quae solo cordis affectu interdum proferuntur tamen certum est eos cognoscere And secondly Because they are our Mediators and intercede with God for us Ibid. Neque est cur timeamus nomen mediatoris transferre ad Sanctos sicut ad eos transferimus nomen advocati intercessoris And accordingly it was decreed by the Council of Trent Mandat sancta Synodus omnibus Episcopis Con. Trid. S. 25. Decret de Inv. Sanct. c. omnes fideles instruant de Sanctorum intercessione invocatione reliquiarum honore legitimo imaginum usu Doceant eos bonum atque utile esse eos invocare ad eorum orationes opem auxiliumque confugere Imagines Christi Sanctorum in templis habendas eisque debitum honorem venerationem impertiendam Quod per imagines quas osculamur coram quibus caput aperimus Christum Sanctos adoremus veneremur The people must be taught by the Clergy to pray to Saints to flee to them for succour and help and also for their intercession to honour their shrines and reliques to have their images in Churches and give them their due honour and worship by kissing of them and by kneeling and being bare to them G. Yes I know you do so and burn Candles and go on Pilgrimages to them and offer gifts to them and a great deal more than I can think of But the more shame for you for were your reasons true yet they could not justifie such doings but rather what we all grant and practise that the Saints should be mentioned with honour that the memory of them should be pretious to us and that we would imitate their virtues and thank God for all the blessings we receive from them And yet 't is very improbable that they should know the thoughts of all men at once for 't is a thing that belongs to God only and seems to contradict these Scriptures Eccl. 9.6 7. That the dead know not any thing of what is done under the Sun That God only knows the heart of all the children of men 1 Kings 3.39 Rev. 2.23 And that it is he that searcheth the reins and the hearts And as for your second reason we deny not but that the Saints glorified may pray for the Militant Church only we say that to make them our Mediators and Intercessors and to pray by their merits is expresly against these Scriptures 1 Tim 2.5 1 John 2.1 2. Joh. 14.6 There is one Mediator between God and men the man Jesus Christ I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the father but by me not by the Saints If ye ask any thing in my name Ibid. 13 14. that will I do If ye ask any thing in my name I will do it Eph. 2.18 not if ye ask in the name of the Saints Through him we have access by one spirit unto the father and lastly to conclude and shew that the Practice of our Church is well grounded and safe It is said Heb. 7.25 He Christ is able to save to the utmost those that come unto God by him seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them As for your representing God in bodily shapes and worshipping the Images of Saints 't is well the Council of Trent is so express for it for I am sure the Holy Scripture doth not in the least authorize but rather condemn it Deut. 5.8 Thou shalt not make to thy self any graven image nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above Ib. 4 15â— c. and in another place Take ye good heed unto your selves for you saw no manner of similitude when the Lord spake to you in Horeb lest ye corrupt your selves and make you a graven image the similitude of any figure c. And that Images should not be worshipped in any wise Ex. 20.5 what can be more express than the second Commandment Thou shalt not bow down thy self to them nor serve them And now who will wonder that you believe Doctrins not contein'd in Scripture when ye teach and command what is so directly against it P. You fansie that we transgress the Commandments but we say that we can fulfil them all and that some do so Bellar. de Just l. 4. c. 13. De Monac l. 2. c. 7. and more than is commanded too There are those amongst us who are so far from committing any sin that they can do more than is required of them by God Potest homo facere plus quam
Deus praecipit multo magis potest implere praeceptum G. Very good so say the worst of our Fanatics that they are perfect and without sin yet I confess you do not fansie your people to fansie so that privilege is granted only to some choice ones and that long after they are dead and therein you act with much discretion as Stapleton faith Contr. 3. Quaest 11. Summa cum ratione introductum fuit ut Canonizatio per solum summum Pontificem fiat For some must be more than just that the Pope may have works of Supererogation to hoord up and the people must be kept from that Perfection that he may have Chap-men to buy those sacred Wares But God's Amanuenses who had none of them to sell teach quite otherwise 1 Kings 8.46 Ps 130.3 Eccl. 7.20 that There is no man that sinneth not that If God should mark iniquities not any man could stand that There is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not In all these there is not so much as one Frier excepted So the dearest Apostle of our Blessed Saviour tells us If we say that we have no sin we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us God requires the utmost of our love 1 Joh. 1.8 whatever we do out of love is due and sure what we do upon other Motives is not meritorious in that sense as you take it Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart Matt. 22.37 with all thy soul and with all thy mind And our Blessed Lord and Redeemer hath taught all Christians even the most perfect to say in their daily Offices Luk. 11.4 Forgive us our sins P. You know how the Fox that had no tail would persuade others to cut off theirs I am sure we are told Beyrling prompt mor p 337 that you live most unchristian lives and that ye have an irreconcileable quarrel against all Good Works Therefore ye would fain persuade us that no body can attain to Perfection here and that Good Works are not meritorious But for all you can say We will believe that they are and that not only of temporal blessings but of life eternal it self and of the highest degree of glory by their own dignity Probavimus bona opera justorum vere proprie esse merita merita non cujuscunq Bellar de Justif l. 5. c. 1. Ibid. c 20. praemii sed ipsius vitae aeternae Nos existimamus vitam aeternam tum quoad primum gradum tum quoad caeteros reddi bonis meritis filiorum Dei G. We little regard those foul aspersions you cast upon us the first and best Christians were made as vile by the Heathen as possibly you can make us neither have we any quarrel against good Works We make them absolutely necessary to salvation and we teach according to Scripture that God will reward them with eternal life but to say that they do really and properly merit it ex condigno without respect to Christ and the Promise We dare not be so presumptuous especially because of these Scriptures The wages of sin is death Ro. 6.23 and the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It should have been according to your Doctrin And the wages of works is eternal life Ps 43.2 Enter not into judgment with thy servant for in thy sight shall no man living be justified How much less rewarded with the highest degree of eternal glory Lu. 17.10 When ye have done all those things that are commanded you say we are unprofitable servants We have done what was our duty to do But I forget that you can do more than all that is commanded you and belike 't is that overplus that makes the Merits of Condignity S. Paul saith 1 Cor. 6.19 20. 1 Cor. 47. Ro. â— 18 That we are not our own because we have been bought with a price And in another place What hast thou that thou didst not receive And lastly that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us Let any man weigh these Scriptures and see whether they favour more your absolute Merits than our Doctrin of denying our own righteousness for to rely on Gods merciful Promises in Christ for a reward to our syncere though imperfect Services and good Works P. Well if we had no Merits of our own yet we are not left destitute Oh the happiness of those that live in the lap of the Church that good Mother will let them want for nothing if a child of hers is not furnisht with meritoriousness but hath rather many sins to answer for as it is the case of a great many yet he shall not be left without help She will make over to him the satisfactions of others who have suffered more than their sins required Bellar. de Indulg l. 1. c. 2. In bonis actibus hominum justorum duplex valor sive pretium assignari potest meriti videlicet satisfactionis Opus bonum qua parte meritorium est non potest alii applicari potest tamen qua satisfactorium Extat in Ecclesia thesaurus satisfactionum Christi superfluentium ad quem pertinent etiam passiones Beatae Mariae Virginis emnium aliorum Sanctorum qui plus passi sunt quam eorum peccata requirerent Satisfactiones Christo Sanciis supervacaneae applicari possunt aliis qui rei sunt luendae poenae temporalis Ibid. c. 3. Ecclesiae pastoribus anctoritas divinitus concessa est thesaurum satisfactionum dispensandi ac per hane indulgentias concedendi Praelati Ecclesiae dispensare possunt Christi passionem tum per Sacramenta tum per Indulgentias passiones vero Sanctorum nonnisi per Indulgentias G. Pray give me leave to English it to my thinking the Doctrin is pleasant you shall see how well I relish it that is to say That the good Works of just men have a twofold value one side of them is meritorious and the other satisfactory this last may be given to others but the first may not and that in the Church there is a treasure of the superfluous satisfactions of Christ of the Blessed Virgin and all other Saints who suffered more than in justice they ought Which treasure is disposed of by the Pastors of the Church according to that authority as God hath given them to those who are guilty of temporal pains and that with a great deal of Art and Industry for the Passion of Christ is given by the Sacraments and Indulgences but the Passions of the Saints by Indulgences only I protest you are witty folks to devise such pretty things as these no wonder if you will not be tied to the written Word when you are so good at inventing Honest Novator were I minded only to point out all the Impertinences included in this Doctrin it would confute itself or at least appear
ordines regni vel Senatum civitatis at si istud non succedat qui est status necessitatis potest per se immediate procedere dando illius regnum alteri Orthodoxo principi vel primo victori Orthodoxo illud assignando ut Stephanus Papa transtulit imperium à Graecis ad Germanos Innocentius quartus interdixit regni administrationem Regi Portugaliae fratrem ejus substituens c. So likewise Cardinal Bellarmine doth teach That though the Pope as Pope may not usually yet that as Supreme Spiritual Prince he may for the good of souls dispose of Kingdoms as he thinks good take them away from one and give them to another Non potest Papa ut Papa ordinarie c. tamen potest mutà re regna uni auferre atque alteri conferre tanquam summus Princeps Spiritualis si id necessarium sit ad animarum salutem For you must know That in the Church the Ecclesiastick and the Civil Power are as in Man the Spirit and the Flesh and that Kingdoms and Governments are not immediately of God but of Men whereas the Power of the Bishop of Rome comes immediately from God Bell. de Rom. Pont. l. 5. c. 6. Vt se habent in bomine spiritus caro sic se habent in Ecclesia potestas politica Ecclesiastica regna non sunt immediate à Deo instituta sed ab hominibus Pontificatus autem à Deo immediate est institutus And so The Pope hath power to dispose of all temporal things belonging to all Christians in general Pontifex Romanus in ordine ad bonum spirituale habet summam potestatem disponendi de temporalibus rebus omnium Christianorum And according to that unlimited Power in the Head the Body of the Clergy enjoys great Priviledges They are above or at least equal to King and Princes and therefore not bound to obey them neither by Divine nor Humane right Ibid. Respectu clericorum non sunt principes superiores potestates ac proinde non tenentur clerici principibus parere neque jure divino neque humano nisi quantum ad leges quasdam directivas i. e. non obligatione coactiva And so The Goods and Estates of Clergy-men as well Temporal as Ecclesiastick are and ought to be free from Taxes and all duties to Princes and they themselves ought not to be judged by any Civil Magistrate although they do not observe Civil Laws Bell. de Clericis L. ◠c. 28. Non possunt Clerici à judice saeculari judicari etiamsi leges civiles non servent Bona clericorum tam Ecclesiastica quam saecularia libera sunt ac merito esse debent à tributis principum saecularium G. Yes I see your Pope is a petty God upon Earth his Power is not to be controul'd and whatever he doth his Almightiness and Infallibility will bear him out and make the thing good and just though it seem never so much otherwise But sure in this he is none of Christs Vicar the meek and humble JESVS would not so much as divide the Inheritance betwixt two Brethren much less dispose of whole Kingdoms he paid tribute to Caesar and acknowledged his Authority to be from above and we read no where that ever he gave any such power to his Apostles or their Successors as the Pope pretends to He told them indeed that they should be brought and condemned before the Tribunals of Kings and Princes but did no where tell them that ever Kings and Princes should be brought before their Pontifical Chairs to be judged and punished by them We read but of one that ever pretended to have the power of disposing of the Kingdoms of the World he that said All these things will I give thee Mat. 4.9 And except the Head of your Church will acknowledge himself to be his Surrogate he had best shew us how he came by the same Power But this Doctrine is so contrary to the example and Religion of our Lord Jesus Christ that it will be its own antidote you your selves are ashamed to own it openly and when it is known it is confuted P. I see we shall never agree as to particulars as long as you believe to have the Scripture on your side you 'll never yield to the Authority of our Church which you don't think to be infallible But in general by your own Confession ours is the best and the safest Church for you yield that a man may be sav'd in it whereas we utterly deny the same priviledge to yours Stapl. contr 3. quaest 9. 10. the Communion of the Church of Rome being absolutely necessary to the Salvation of all men Romanae Ecclesiae Communio omnibus est ad salutem necessaria You also grant that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peters Successor which is a great point And I believe you won't deny but that there is Miracles wrought in our Church which are unanswerable Arguments of the truth of its Doctrine These three are substantial points and will abundantly outweigh all the petty Objections you can bring against some parts of our Religion Pray consider of them at your leisure G. To my thinking they require no great consideration and there is no such weight in them as you fancy though you make great use of such woodden Arguments to seduce the simple yet to those that have but an ordinary competency of knowledge they seem very insignificant The first is comon to you with our Fanaticks they all confine Salvation every one to his own Sect and you and they together take advantage of our charity in that we don't exclude you out of Heaven you believe that you only shall come in it But Mr. Novator don't you trust to our charitable Opinions we may be mistaken for we pretend to no infallibility There was two Barques putting out to Sea both of them bound for Jerusalem one was rotten leaky and much out of order but the Master of it was a bold Man and of an imposing Spirit he would perswade the people that it was St. Peters own Barque that it was impossible it should sink and that all as many as would not come into it should certainly be drown'd and never come to the Holy Land The other Barque was sound and strong and well fitted for the Voyage the Passengers therein would tell those in the leaky one of their great danger and exhort them to stop the holes and put things in better order though they did not despair but that some of them might swim to shore upon some pieces of the Barque Now do you think this mans confidence would hold his sinking Ship upon the Water or that the compassionates hopes and wishes of the others would make their own sink Certainly uncharitableness is a very unfit mark to know Christianity and the true Church by But let me tell you that we have no hopes of you as you are Papists Those Articles wherein you differ from us shall greatly
against many of your Doctrines and by what many learned men have written out of the best Records of Antiquity if you durst read them that those things in debate betwixt us are at the best but doubtful therefore 't will be more sure to relie chiefly on what is believ'd of both parties our common Symbol or Christian Creed You use to say that yours is the safest Church because we believe as well as you that men may be sav'd in it And now I use the same reason and say that 't is better to believe as we do because you also acknowledge what we believe to be sound and Orthodox That the Scripture is the Word of God and therefore infallible That God is the only Object of our Religious Adoration That Jesus Christ is in Heaven and there to be worshipped That his Blood doth cleanse us from all sin That he intercedes for us and That he will render to every man according to his works the Scripture is plain in all this and you believe it as well as we therefore 't is much more certain and to be relied on than the Popes Infallibility the worshipping Images with the worship of Douleia as you speak the belief of Transubstantiation the Doctrine of Purgatory the relying on the Merits Satisfactions and Intercessions of the Saints and the Pardons and Indulgences of the Church-treasure Bell. de Justif l. 5. c. 7. Propter incertitudinem propriae justitiae periculum inanis Gloriae tutissimum est fiduciam totam in sola dei misericordia benignitate reponere Because of the uncertainty of our own righteousness and the danger of self-conceitedness it is safest of all to put our whole trust in the mercy of God The like might be said of all other points in question But why could not the learned Cardinal say so before and spare himself the great laboâ—rs he took about Purgatory Indulgences and the Merits and Satisfactions of our selves and others by saying plainly Tutissimum est 't is safest of all to relie upon Gods mercy Certainly in a thing of that moment we should go the surest way to work But pray learn that Lesson of that great Champion of your Church and mind what I have said Now I 'll tell you if you stay a while longer I expect Master V. a Presbyterian Minister one that will tell you stoutly of the Beast and the Whore of Babylon and many other things that will please you as well I should be very glad to hear you discourse together and perhaps 't will not be altogether unpleasant to you P. Ho Master V. I know him of old I would go many a mile to see him and to talk with him I have of late lookt over many of their Presbyterian Books as they printed in the time of the late War I 'll warrant you I 'll make brave sport with him if you please but to stand Spectator or Auditor for a while if you can be patient enough to hear us I dare promise you we 'll find discourse enough to entertain your attention G. I will The Preface THe Doctrines and Constitutions of the Church of England which are rejected and opposed by the Presbyterians have been so fully asserted against their Objections and Innovations by the labours of several learned men that it had been actum agere to thrust my Sickle into other mens Harvest to say any thing in defence of them I have therefore made it my only business to discover their profest Religion as it hath been solemnly taught by the Deeds and Writings of their greatest Divines because I observe that they also draw people after them chiefly by concealing or misrepresenting of it I will not tell thee before hand that they own the worst of Popish Errours thou shalt judge of it when thou hast made an end of reading this Book But for fear thou shouldst think that thou knowest well enough already what their Doctrines are I will assure thee that they disguise them and cunningly hide their real and worst Opinions under fair and specious pretences I know I shall be told that I rake into the dust of old stories and open the grave of Oblivion c. and be called a Lyar and a Calumniator and what else they please Veritas odium parit But I say that those Authors I have cited have never recanted their Errours nor the Divines of that party ever censured or disowned them or their Writings but they still persist to impose upon the people and draw them away from the Church by the same arts and pretences as they did at first And I protest that though I might I have not mentioned the failings of any one man whom I knew to have repented of them by returning to his duty neither have I falsified any of my Quotations in the least nor made such severe reflections upon them as one might but said just as much as I thought would suffice to make them hang together and let the Reader see the cheat And as for their ill speaking of me I regard it not for let it be never so bad I am sure they have said worse of better men than either I am or pretend to be If it be objected That I have brought in a silly Presbyterian who speaks but two or three words at a time and says nothing in his own defence I desire it may be considered that the Papist having the Conclusion to prove was therefore to be longest in his Discourses and that Replies and a full debate of the points in question had been useless and inconsistent with my intended brevity But the truth is I knew not what my Veterator could have answered to those proofs that were brought against him I desire the Reader to observe whether they do admit of any pleas or evasions And now before I suffer thee to hear the Discourse of my Colloquutors let me require these two things of thee First That whatsoever Religion thou art resolved to profess thou wouldst take heed that by deluding arts and goodly pretences thou beest not made to follow those Doctrines and practices which are hereafter mentioned and the which if thou art a Christian and a Protestant thou canst not but condemn as being erroneous and criminal in the highest degree And secondly That thou would not draw poison out of my Antidote be uncharitable to those that are because I have made thee see their errours such foul Doctrines as thou shalt find in this Book are never good but at second hand and they are mentioned by me with designs of charity that thou mightst avoid them not to make thee hate or despise the Authors or Abettors of them Remember that other mens faults shall not excuse thine Wherefore let him that thinketh he stands take heed lest he fall 1 Cor. 10.12 In stead of insulting over them that are misguided or fallen do thou pray heartily with the Church That God would bring into the way of truth all such as have erred and are
deceived Popery Manifested AND THE Papist Incognito made known By way of DIALOGVE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a Presbyterian Divine The Second Part. Pr. YOur Servant Sir I come to see how you do and to spend an hour with you according to my promise G. Sir you are very welcome I am glad to see you and I was very impatient of your coming as much to enjoy your good company my self as to procure it to this old acquaintance of mine who long'd for it as much as I did Pr. Ha I doubt you have too many such acquaintances I know the man and am sorry to see you should keep company with him an Enemy to Christ and Christian Religion Take heed Sir Antichrist is of a very seducing Spirit Pa. Oh how now Master you fall foul upon me already that 's a very coarse Complement to salute me with the odious name of Antichrist But I hope you are not in earnest for my part I am glad to see you and desire to shake hands with you if it will not defile the holiness of yours Pr. Avoid Satan I would not have so much as your shadow to touch me and I am sorry to polute mine eyes with the sight of such a foul object as you are no there ought to be no communication betwixt light and darkness Pa. That 's true too but I 'll warrant you you and I are much of a dye and I am not of so dark a colour as you think I dare say for all your great aversion to me your Religion and mine differ but a little or at least nothing so much as that of the Church of England which you think comes very near to ours I can make it appear that we of Rome are agreed in many things with the English Presbyterians wherein we greatly differ from other Protestants come my good Friend let you and I dispute the case a little you shall find that I 'll give you great satisfaction in it Pr. These be impertinent brags and paradoxes I need no satisfaction in the case I am sure enough of the contrary There are no men under the Sun that hate and abhor Popery so much as we do therefore you may spare your labour and keep your breath for a better use G. Pray Sir don't shrink or else you 'll give him occasion to insult and me to be doubtful Sure after having been these twenty years set about the extirpation of Popery you are not afraid of being now prov'd a Papist Come make him repent of his bold challenge and make it appear that your practice and opinions are as averse to Rome as your words and clamors have been P. Yet still I stand upon my first ground you come very near to the Church of Rome in many things wherein you differ from the Church of England even in those things that are counted the worst of our errours Pr. I shall quickly confute your false and daring Assertion And first your Church doth greatly derogate from the Word of God and makes it inferiour to her Traditions and the Determinations of her Popes and Councils Can you charge us with any such thing Pa. Yes that I can You do greatly undervalue the same Divine Word to set up your Sermons the higher you perswade your people that that is the only Preaching and the true and only Word of God which you deliver out of your Pulpits so that your own Discourses are more attended and more regarded than the Bible it self And so prevalent is this opinion that those of your sort that go to the Parish Churches defer to go in while the Psalms the Chapters and the Epistle and Gospel are reading as if these were not worth the hearing But what is of the mans own making they will listen to attentively and herhaps write it down and repeat it with a great deal of Devotion Gods Word is but a Woodden Dagger with you it doth not reach the heart but the worst Sermon in your Conventicles pierceth the very soul and makes the people sigh and groan and take on most pitifully the powerfulness of Preaching indangers the very heart-strings And so current 't is amongst you that your Preaching is the Word of God that 't is call'd by the name of The Gospel and to hear it is made a Mark of Election So Mr. Jeremiah Burroughs told the Parliament Serm. print 1645. p. 2. When I consider this place Westminster the extraordinary hand of God in bringing the Gospel to be preacht to you here in power those thoughts presently arise there is hope that there are many souls here belonging to Gods Election surely many will come in and imbrace the Gospel here And by the transcribing those sacred Oracles men were to judge of the condition their souls were in Thomas Palmer in a Sermon of his tells the people 1644. p. 28. That to hear Sermons and not write them is like taking water in a Sieve You keep a Shop-Book saith he O be perswaded to keep a Soul-Book that you may know how your Spiritual Estate stands belike those that had much written had very rich souls what increase or decrease of Grace you make this recording of revealed Truths and Soul-experiences from God would be of admirable use in time of trouble This is the difference in the case we undervalue Scripture that we may heed the more the Decrees of our Pope and you that you may the better attend to the dictates of every one of your Sermonizers Pr. I know all you can alledge will come short of what you would prove therefore I don't intend to trouble my self with answering your impertinencies it would but make our Discourse too tedious let this Gentleman be judge betwixt you and I who are in the right Pa. That will be very well I 'll follow your example and endeavour to shorten our Dialogue by pleading guilty t every Article Charge our Religion with what you will I 'll deny nothing but shew you your own face in that Mirrour you shall reach to me Come proceed Pr. In your publick Worship you use an unknown Tongue which the people doth not understand and thereby you keep them in ignorance that they may not be able to discern the errours of your Religion I am sure you can tax us with no such thing for we make all things plain to our hearers and they are an understanding and a knowing people who have more light in spiritual matters than any people whatsoever Pa. You do but fancy so they are as ignorant as any of us and they understand as little what you say though you speak English yet you speak an unknown Language to the people for you have so spiritualiz'd Religion that you have made riddles and mysteries of the plainest of its Doctrines it all consists in new-coin'd phrases and spiritual notions and fancies and secrets Pray hear what Mr. Francis Cheynell preacht before the Parliament Serm. 1646. p. 2. and 3. God
Allegiance make Subjects to rebel against their Sovereign and be as active for the Kirk as ever the Pope was for the Church so that in this you wanted nothing of being right Catholicks but that you did not fight to advance the holy See but the holy Classis Pr. 'T is well you can make an end at last I could find in my heart to let you talk alone you are so infinitely tedious especially in your Citations Pa. Sir I know that such grave and serious men as you are are gifted with a great deal of patience but yet let me tell you that I could be a great deal more tedious you have made the subject in hand so copious that one must write Volumes that would treat it in its full Latitude But what have you to say next Pr. I say being we are discoursing of War that you Papists are cruel and merciless to those that differ from you in Religion as appears by your Massacres and Inquisitions abroad and your Persecutions and Plots here at home and you make people believe that in their bloudy cruelties against Protestants they do God great service I am sure we are quite of another temper for we preach meekness and forbearance of one another and are for Liberty of Conscience Pa. Nay I know you shall never lack commendation for want of speaking well of your selves your words then are all honey honey-sweet but the mischief is that your actions are in the other extream as bitter as gall 'T is true you are now for forbearance and Liberty of Conscience but when you had the Power in your hands no men ever more strict and severe You tied your selves by a solemn Oath Faithfully to endeavour the discovery of all Malignants and evil Instruments that should hinder the Reformation of Religion that they might be brought to publick tryal and receive condign punishment in the fourth Article of your Solemn League and Covenant for the Reformation and defence of Religion as you call'd it and so whereas there are but few Inquisitors in the Church of Rome you had thousands of them among you every man that had taken the Covenant was bound to be one bound to accuse his own Brother if he were not of your party And so 't is said of Mr. Case that he performed this part of his Oath very conscientiously as indeed it was his Doctrine in his Sermons on the Covenant Case p. 56 If any one persist to hinder Reformation be it the man of thine own house the husband of thine youth the wife of thy bosom c. thou must with all faithfulness endeavour the discovery thine eye must not pity nor spare Deut. 13.6 7 and 8. But I wonder you would speak of cruelty my last Quotations of your Authors being so full of it It seems you would have me make it out that there is a perfect resemblance betwixt your Church and ours in our Zeal for God and Religion Well you shall be satisfied You know the first thing we do to Hereticks is to Excommunicate them so Mr. Cheynel would have those of the Church of England serv'd in the Epistle Dedicatory of his forementioned Sermon he desires the Parliament That if bloudy Delinquents come to compound their Composition may not authorize them to communicate at the Lords Table And he tells them at the 44 pag. There are some sly Malignants who are too wise to be scandalous they do not roar like a Lion but fret like a Moth you will be importun'd that those men may be spar'd because they are not scandalous in their lives have you not read of one Qui sobrius accessit ad perdedam rempublicam Must men be spar'd because they do not fiercely assault Church and State It seems their honesty would signifie nothing to excuse them from your persecution as long as they were not of your party Mr. Coleman had found a way of punishing the Bishops in case they should escape with their lives which I don't remember to have ever been used amongst us T. Coleman 1644. p. 16. Look to all degrees saith he to the Parliament and spare none and amongst the rest the Prelates whose offences in case they should not be found capital that device of sending them to New-England transcends all the inventions I ever met with as good have cast them with Daniel into the Lions Den. Nay it was so much a duty to God to shew no mercy to any of the Kings Party that he had told them before pag. 15. That their ill success in the West was because of their carelesness in keeping and dealing with Delinquents and proves it by this Scripture 1 King 20.42 Thus saith the Lord Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction therefore thy life shall go for his life and thy people for his people So Mr. Case in a Sermon to the Court-Martial at the 13 pag. There is no dealing with God now T. Case 1644. God is angry he seems to ask this once more Will you stick will you execute Judgment or will you not Tell me for if you will not I will I will have the Enemies bloud and yours too if you will not execute Vengeance upon Delinquents At the 16 pag. he tells them That God would have Judges to shew no mercy when the Quarrel is against Religion and the Government of Jesus Christ Those men that would rise up in cursed practices to bring in Idolatry and false Worship to depose Christ from his Throne and set up Antichrist in his place c. such a Generation hath Christ doomed to execution Luk. 19.27 Those mine Enemies that would not have me to reign over them bring hither and slay them before me And at 18 pag. What severity will God expect from you in these cases who are call'd this day to judge for God between the sons of Belial bloudy Rebels and an whole Christian Church and State now resisting unto Blend for Reformation Let me say to you as God to Moses concerning the Midianites Vex these Midianites and smite them for they vex you with their wiles Numb 25.17 and 18. Behold how the Godly sanctified their cruelty with pieces of Scriptures and thereby prest it as a most indispensable duty Mr. Joseph Boden also in his forecited Sermon pag. 16. and 18. exhorts the Committee to do the utmost as they could against the Malignants God arms them saith he with strength against his people because heretofore and now also they have and do find too much favour at our hands I am confident the next time the Devil gets into the Pulpit he 'll preach as good Divinity upon this subject as this man and many of his Brethren did It was so essential a part of your Godliness and such an acceptable piece of service to Christ to shew no mercy to the Malignants that it was the praise of a dead Saint S. Midhope p. 22. Colonel Gould That he had been
impartially active in punishing Malignants against the cause of Christ and therein another Moses And indeed who would have shewed any love to those ugly Cavaliers who were Gods Enemies Remember saith Mr. Leech before he exhorted those that were on Gods side to throw down Jezabel that we cannot be rightly for God Jer. Leech p. 21. if we be not against those that are against God Gods Friends must be our Friends and Gods Enemies must be our Enemies Therefore it was I suppose that your minds were so imbittered against the Malignants that you breathed cruelty against them in your very Prayers Mr. Tesdale one of your holy Synod exhorting the House of Commons to pray for the peace of Jerusalem which was the words of his Text out of Psal 122.6 Israel saith he and Amalck join Battel daily should not therefore Moses hands be lift up in prayer and Aaron and Hur help to sustain them until the Lord hath avenged us of our Enemies of pray for the peace of Jerusalem But for a conclusion hear what Mr. J. W. Batchelor in Divinity preacht upon a Thanksgiving-day for your Victory at Hessammoor p. 10. Most of them Cavaliers are desperately wicked whom Satan hath principled to make haste for Hell there is no design so desperate as some of them will not attempt though usually they be bulletted and sent out of this life for it and sent to meet with such Matches as will keep fire for ever It seems their souls found no more mercy at your hands than their bodies did you sent them straight to Hell Whence by the way it is observable that your Power reacheth downward further than the Popes for his as yet goeth that way no further than Purgatory But what a pity 't is that you were not of the Church of Rome VVhat brave Champions should we have had And what a loss is it that such fervent Zeal was spent upon a wrong Cause But however right or wrong it appears that you made the people believe that cruelty to your Enemies was an excellent piece of Religion and most acceptable to God and so dear Sir in this we may also shake hands Pr. You are a lying Calumniator and it is your custom to load with reproaches and the blackest of crimes those whom you are not able to encounter with Reason and Arguments whoever will not dote upon your follies you 'll be sure to defame and slander with your virulent tongues and you make the vulgar abhor your adversaries by representing them as monsters Pa. Well I assure you for all your anger I had the very same thing to say to you and if you speak truth in this we are really Brothers in iniquity for you also clapt a most ugly Vizard on your Enemies face and then brought them out to be worried by the people Wicked Accursed Popish Babylonish Antichristian these were the colours you drew them in as you may see in what follows There was a Book printed 1643. by Thomas Watson call'd The Cavaliers Catechism so foul that I should be asham'd to mention it but that you was not asham'd to print it or at least to suffer it to be made publick It was thus What is your Name Cavalier Who gave you that Name My Seducers and Deceivers in mine Innocency wherein I was made a Member of the Church of Rome and consequently a Limb of Antichrist an Enemy to all Godliness the Child of the Devil and an Inheritor of the Kingdom of Darkness c. What Commandments have you learned and will you keep These following To observe the Will of his Holiness of Rome To commit Treason against Kings that oppose him and To commit Adultery Rapine c. But there was as bad as this spoken out of the Pulpit Steph. Marshal in a Sermon to the Mayor and Aldermen S. Marshal 1644. These are miserable and accursed men these men are Factors for Hell Satans Boutefeus and as the true Zealots are set on fire from Heaven so these mens fire is kindled from Hell whither also it carries them So Mr. Vicars in his Jehovah-Jireh J. Vicars p. 6. I mean to make the godly Reader to see the distress and danger we were plunged in by the nefarious Plots of Jesuitical Priests and perfidious Prelates for I may most justly link them together like Simeon and Levi brothers in iniquity combining and complotting to reduce us to the accursed Romish Religion the whole Book is full of the same stuff And there were Centuries of scandalous Malignant Priests printed by the order of the Committee of the House of Commons wherein the Episcopal Clergy was charged with the most detestable crimes and abominations that could be invented And Mr. White saith of them in the Preface That they were dumb Dogs Jo White 1643. against whom God had protested for their ignorance men swallowed up with Wine and strong Drink whose Tables were full of vomit and filthiness Whore-mongers and Adulterers who as fed Horses neigh'd after their Neigbours Wives Buggerers that changed the natural use in that which is against Nature men unfit to live or to preach among Christians Priests of Baal of Bacchus of Priapus Pray what could you have said worse not only of us but even of the lewdest Turks and Heathen So Mr. Gill. at Edinburgh in his Sermon to the House of Commons on Ezek. 43.11 And if they be ashamed of what they have done c. saith at the 13 pag. Gillesp 1643. The first Application shall be to the Malignants enemies of the Cause and people of God at this time who deserve to have Jeremies black mark to be put upon them Jer. 6.15 Were they ashamed when they committed abomination Mr. Tesdale likewise in his fore-mentioned Sermon Balaam may engross the Promotions of Moab Tesd p. 8. as the temporizing Clergy of late the Dignities of our Church but upon sawcy terms they must come then and curse Israel And before at the 6 pag. he had joined together the Atheists Papist Priests the Prelates Irish Rebels and the English Traitors as Sampsons Foxes to destroy the Church and Commonwealth Mr. Calamy himself that man of moderation told the Commons E. Calamy 1645. p. 26. If there be any amongst you that favour Malignants because they are your Friends though Enemies to God and his cause this is a great sin to be repented on greatly I say to such as the Prophet to Jehoshaphat 2 Chr. 19.2 Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord Any body whom you knew to be a Friend or an Helper to the King was sure to be a wicked man for his pains and to have fine Epithets bestowed upon him as these Beech 1645. p. 10. Have not our new Midianites Assyrians taking to their assistance the French Philistines Welsh Egyptians Cornish Hungarians the degenerate Ishmaelites and the Renegado English have not these wrested our lives c. Nay the Magistrates themselves were not exempt from
the sting of your poisonous tongues Mr. Case told the Court-Martial Th. Case 1644. p. 8. That for many years Robbery Violence Murther and Treason had sate on the Bench and not stood at the Bar c. And your tongues were so inur'd to slander that you could not so much as spare the first Christian Emperours and Bishops who had been the great Propagators of Christian Religion T. Palmer 1644. p. 19. The wicked saith Mr. Palmer and the Popes and Roman Emperours have agreed all along to persecute Gods Saints that hath gone on for above 600 years they have been getting upon the Saints almost all this while and therefore now 't is no more but just with God to bring their time of losing c. Thus you see the conformity between you and us holds still in this particular of slandering our enemies or rather to give you your full due you have out-done all Precedents by far if not Diabolos himself the Father of Lyes Pr. I know not whether your Quotations be true but this I am sure of that there is no men under the Sun so humble as the Presbyterians none acknowledge themselves so vile before God and make such soul-humbling confessions of sin whereas you magnifie your selves as the only people of God you think there is no goodness to be found but only amongst you therefore you exclude all that are not of your Church out of Heaven and so puft up you are with pride that you dare talk of your merits as though you were more than perfect Pa. Of Merits and Perfection another time if you please for the present let us inquire whether you do not value your selves as highly as we do and also shut out of Heaven those that are not of your holy Sect. As for your long confessions of sins I confess that I have sometimes admired how they could be consistent with the good opinion you have of your selves At first I thought that you took a pride in professing much humility and possibly I was not much out for you know you call him the Son of Pride who calls himself Servus Servorum But I remember that heretofore you kept days of humiliation for the sins of others Mr. Coleman in a Sermon to the Parliament after he had told them how that sins may be punished long after their commission T. Coleman p. 14. adds This particular was taken to heart when by an Ordinance you call'd upon the Kingdom to be humbled for the Bloud shed in the Marian persecution if such an Ordinance was reprinted with some additions concerning mixtures in Gods service and violence against Gods servants under the Prelatical Tyranny it might possibly do much good whereby it may seem probable that in your long confessions you mean other mens sins and not your own However it appears by what I have said already that you think your selves the best of men or to speak more properly the holy ones the elect and chosen people you engross to your selves the names of precious Saints and Godly others go under the notion of vile Looking-Glass for Malignants p. 2. ungodly reprobates It grieves the Saints saith Mr. Vicars to see those miserable Malignants to be so godless and graceless so bitingly and bitterly to flout and affront the Lord Christ himself in his holy Members and his most glorious Cause And in his Jehovah-Jireh speaking of Bastwick Burton c. brought out of prison p. 43. he saith Did not the Lord shew himself most strangely in the Mount for the redemption of all these his beloved Isaacs and cause his wrath to lay hold on those Romish Rams who were intangled in the bushes of their Bishoply abuses to Gods children and so by his admirable Providence to make them a prey to his just indignation in stead of his innocent his tenderly affected Isaacs his beloved Lambs I believe the Jews never put so many affronts and indignities upon the accursed posterity of Cham as you did upon those that were not enrol'd among your Saints Jer. Bur. 1643. p. 10. The Lord hath raised up saith Mr. Burroughs the worst the vilest upon the face of the earth and they have possest the houses of many of his Saints the dearly beloved of Gods Soul Is not this to the purpose Nay it seems the blessed Apostles and first Christians were inferiour in Saintship to your most incomparable selves saith Mr. Goodwin to the Parliament Look upon this Isle wherein we live Th. Good 1645. p. 51. as it is the richest Ship that hath the most of the precious Jewels of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in it Let me use the same Expression as I did in publick twenty years agone That if we stood at Gods elbow when he bounded out the Nations and seasons that men should live in we should not have known unless in Christs in what Age or in what place we should have chosen to have lived in in respect of the enjoyments of the Gospel and the Communion of Saints more than in this Kingdom wherein we live Now my loving Friend don't you think that we are also well agreed in this in esteeming our selves highly and condemning others that are not of our side as impious reprobates fit only for Hell All the difference lies in this that we think well of our selves in that we obey our Church and hold Communion with her and you contrariwise make your excellency to consist in forsaking your Church and endeavouring to destroy it Pr. You shall repent by and by of the great pains you take for nothing mean while I 'll give you leave to talk of what Master such an one and such an one saith and pray can you find by those your Authors you have so ready at your fingers end that we have merits of congruity and merits of condignity and that we can give Pardons and Indulgences if so be we can get money for them Don't we teach that all our righteousness is as a defiled Rag and that our best works are rather sinful than meritorious Pa. It may be so but for all that I can tell you of one thing that is hugely meritorious among you and that is the advancing of the Cause the time was when you exhorted the people to spend all upon so good a work S. Marshal 1644. p. 41. Lay out your strength and hearts and affections for the Lord go on with all your might with all your estates with all your treasure whatever you have let God have it all in his Cause if be need it And pag. 43. Who knows how far the Zeal of any one man may prevail therefore go on in it to the utmost let Offices go let Wife and Children go let Estates go be wholly for the Lord and say What may I do wherein may I be imployed and laid out what is there in my head or heart in my soul or body in my treasury shop or house which may be of any use for
the Lord Mr. Tesdale in the same manner p. 15. Honourable Patriots Christ is gone forth with his triumphing Army conquering and to conquer and if you want Arms or Money or Horse for their accommodation God is the great Landlord of Heaven and Earth Art thou then Gods Tenant and dost thou owe him Knight-service and Plough-service and doth he want thy Horse and shall he not have it c. Yea verily it was so meritorious a thing to advance the interest of the holy Covenanteers that that was call'd to help the Lord and people were to do the utmost for it and then an hundred-fold here and eternal life besides was the least as they could have for a recompence Mr. Bond after a long Exhortation to pull down Antichrist Joh. Bond 1644. p. 60. and to do for the Lord in the close of all saith I will recommend unto you these two especial promises Mat. 19.29 Every one that hath forsaken Houses or Brethren c. and Mar. 8.35 Whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the Gospels the same shall find it O that they were written over the doors of the Houses of Parliament If these places do deceive an active Believer at last then let it be written upon my Grave Here lieth that Minister that was mistaken in his God and Gospel Was not the acting for the Cause highly meritorious when the greatest of rewards were to be got by it Wherein then lieth the difference Only in this That among you 't is rebelling against the King and the Church but with us 't is good works only that merit Pr. Well but then good works consist for the most part in being kind to the Fryars those good souls who have vowed forsooth to follow the counsels of perfection poverty chastity and blind obedience and yet preach themselves more than Jesus Christ and in begging about make people believe that the best service they can do to God is to do them good whereas you see by your own Citations that what our Ministers did was out of Zeal for Gods Cause to advance his Honour and not their own Profit Pa. Yea that was a piece of deceit and craftiness whereby they out did the Fryars themselves to call their own Gods interest to give specious names to their own devices as if God and Religion had been much concern'd in the establishing of them and to make the world believe that to pull down the Church was to pull down Antichrist and to set them up was to set up Christ in his Throne yet terminis terminatibus they would speak it out too that they and their followers were to be used kindly and that it was the duty and interest of the whole Nation to do good to the Saints and to make as much of them as they could I confess you never oblig'd your selves to obey the Evangelick counsels but you went as near to it as any bad Copy can resemble a good Original for you vow'd to spend your Lives and Estates upon the work in hand that was poverty to the height You vow'd to reform the Church according to the pattern of the best reformed Churches to extirpate Superstition and Heresie and to preserve the Rights and Priviledges of the Parliament and the Liberties of the Kingdoms All which I am sure was blind obedience for not one of an hundred as took the Covenant understood what these things meant and were therefore to follow you blindfold And if in stead of continency you 'll give me leave to put obstinacy we have found the three Monachal vows in the Covenant for you swore never to suffer your selves directly or indirectly by whatsoever combination perswasion or terrour to be divided or withdrawn from your blessed Vnion or Conjunction as you call'd it but zealously and constantly to continue therein all the days of your lives against all opposition whatsoever And accordingly that renowned Champion of yours who died a Martyr for the Covenant said on the Scaffold Mr. Loves Case 1651. p. 22 I did oppose in my place and calling the Forces of the late King and were he alive again and should I live longer the Cause being as then it was I should oppose him longer The good man would rather venture Damnation than break the Covenant by repenting of his Rebellion against his Sovereign so binding was that Holy League which oblig'd him to be thus ostinate But perhaps you won't believe what I have said that you made the people believe it was a most meritorious thing to be kind to you and that you preacht your selves as much as ever the Fryars did if not at least believe these precious men Mr. Dury having observ'd out of his Text Isai 52.11 that God hath vessels belonging to him tells the House of Commons Dury p. 14 God hath intrusted some with those his Vessels and charged them with the care of them to look to them to bear them up c. and then having extol'd the Covenant up to the Skies he saith pag. 24. This is a new thing in the Christian Church there is a special engagement lying upon us all more than upon other men to bear every one our own vessels to bear the vessels of each other and to bear jointly the Church and Cause of God in our hearts hands and shoulders In all the World there is not a Magistracy so eminently entrusted with such a charge over a people so nearly united unto God as you and the Parliament of Scotland are Mr. Burroughs likewise told the Parliament It hath been the honour of some of you to receive and countenance godly Ministers who suffered under the Tyranny of Prelates Jer. Burr 1645. p. 8. this Christ hath owed you for and we hope it shall be remembred for good to you and yours let not your hearts be changed towards these men And pag. 45. My Lords you are advanced to high power and honour in a Kingdom where Christ hath as many Saints I had almost said as in the World besides he expects you should use them kindly Th. Good 1645. p. 5. and 6. And Mr. Goodwin to the House of Commons observes out of his Text Psal 105.14 Here is the nearness and dearness of the Saints to God they are dearer to him than Kings and States simply considered and here is the danger of Kings and States to deal with his Saints otherwise than well And then towards the latter end pag. 52. and 53. It is not the having Saints and multitudes of Saints but the using them kindly that is the interest of a Nation The Saints of England are the interest of England look to and keep this your interest namely maintain and preserve the Saints among you and make provisions for them as you would preserve this Kingdom And then he repeats it again p. 54. The Saints of England are the interest of England write this upon your walls and have it in your eyes in all your Consultations and have respect
to the Saints the whole lump of them if you will maintain your interest whole and intire have regard to the Saints small and great More could not have been said to perswade the people to do you good and in this you are in no wise inferiour to the most self-preaching Monks Pr. I scorn your words we are in nothing like your foolish Fryars Presbyterians are a serious and considering people who serve God according to his VVord in spirit and in truth whereas they mind nothing but their fopperies their superstitions and biggotteries whereby they have made Religion ridiculous Pa. Yes you would fain make the world believe that your new-devised Church-Government and every thing you speak and do is Scripture and according to the Spirit and truth and to hear you cry up your Orders and outward circumstances of divine Service one would think you had found Scriptural or spiritual Ceremonies But when all comes to all it is only this that you make Religion and Godliness to consist in rejecting that decent and instructing Order in Divine VVorship which the Primitive Church used and transmitted to us for to follow your irreverent and unseemly manner of worshipping God according to your own minds But that you also have done enough to make Religion ridiculous and fabulous too is easie to be seen by what I have said and shall say further the many intolerabiles ineptias you preached in your best-studied Sermons before your Parliament and printed afterwards as being excellent Discourses are sufficient proofs that your grave out-sides are inwardly full of emptiness or something else and I protest nothing can fully represent how ridiculous you have made the Publick Offices of Religion as being an eye-witness of it in your Private Meetings And had you not besotted your people by making them believe that what others do is all Popish and Autichristian but what you do your selves is Scripture and Gods Ordinance in purity they would hiss you out of your Desks or at least leave you there alone to enjoy your extravagant humours I leave it as a conclusion to be drawn from our whole Discourse when it is ended that you have made Religion ridiculous or rather that yours is a mock-Religion consisting altogether as to the exterior of it in new-made Prayers and Sermons spoken with a certain piteous tone and some affected faces and paroxisms of Zeal such as Mr. Cheynel was in when he told the Parliament 1646. p. 4. I arrest you this day at the Suit of the great Jehovah for a Debt of ten thousand talents nay millions of millions and over and above of High Treason against the three Persons of the ever-blessed Trinity and then he was in a Trance pag. 24. Ob saith he I feel I bless God I feel my self transported even beyond my self with raptures and extasies of love I could tell you of Christ-concerning-points and Soul-concerning-points of Parliament-repentance and Sacrament-repentance and Bed-repentance and Shop-repentance and many such new-coined phrases which are none of the least part of the powerfulness of preaching And I could tell you of a receipt which is as the extract of a Book called Parliament-Physick for a sick Nation Licensed by Mr. J. Cranford which makes a mock Physick or Divinity of all Evangelick and moral Vertues 1644. p. 112. A great deal of fopperies and futilities as you charge us with might be pickt out of the Sermons as you then printed and I doubt not but the Prayers were much after the same sort had they come out in print and if my Notes deceive me not what you preach now is not much better but I will not say any thing except what I have under your hands But this needs not be prosecuted directly any further Pr. What of all this These be personal failings I don't know how we are come insensibly to talk of things that are meerly practical whereas we was to speak of Doctrinal points I 'll give you but two or three instances more of the wide difference that is betwixt us and then let all the world be judge how impertinent you have been in charging Popery upon us And first you make outward splendor and prosperity to be a mark of the true Church whereas we teach according to Divine and Humane Histories that the Church hath her wanes as well as her fulness that sometimes she is fain to flee into the wilderness and that her Glory may be eclipsed without she doth cease to be the true and only Spouse of Christ Pa. Well I hope you love us never the worse for that agreement as you see is betwixt us in practical points for those be the most important But as for what you mentioned last I must confess that after the Kings and the Churches return to their right you taught E. Calamy 1662. p. 10. 14 That the Ark of God was in great danger and very near to be lost gray hairs saith Mr. Calamy are upon the Gospel I say not that the Gospel is dying but that it hath gray hairs I dare challenge any Scholar to shew me an example of any Nation that hath enjoyed the Gospel for an hundred years together now that gray hairs is to an hundred years is no wonder Well gray hairs are here and there and yet no man lays it to heart But then 't is to be observed that your Principles and Doctrines do change according to your condition according as five of your Brethren told us in their Apology to the Parliament Th. Gâ—od Ph. Nye Sy. Symp. Jer. Bur. W. Bridge p. 10. This principle we carried along with us not to make our present judgment and practice a binding Law to our selves for the future For in the days of your Power you then followed God and Providence every prosperous success of yours was a mark that yours was Gods Cause and you his beloved ones Behold God in the Mount cries Mr. Vicars at every advantage you had over the Kings party in his Jehovah-Jirch yea and your prosperity was a mark that you were destroying Antichrist Tho. Palmer in that Sermon 1644. dedicated to the Earl of Essex Epist Dedicat hath these brave expressions God hath put you in his own place God hath grac'd you with his own Name Lord of Hosts General of Armies God hath committed to your care what is most precious to himself precious Gospel precious Ordinances a precious Parliament a precious people God hath called forth your Exellency as a choice Worthy to be his General and the Champion of Jesus Christ to fight the great and last battel with Antichrist in this your native Kingdom So Mr. Caryl in a Thanksgiving Sermon for a Victory of yours Jef Caryl 1644. Divine Providence is a leading Cloud to this day it is ill to out-run Providence and it is as had not to follow it Many things that I have said before will clear it enough that you made your good success and prosperity an argument of
Durell speaks as if there was hardly any difference betwixt you and the Church of England Bonasius Vapul 1672. p. 80. It may be worth saith he the consideration of those who are in Authority whether they may not enjoy Ecclesiastical Preferments who differ from their Brethren only in some few points of Discipline for as to the Essentials of Discipline I am not so quick-sighted as to find that we disagree c. But if it be so the more wicked you who have made crimes and enormities of a few indifferent points of Discipline What was it the terderness oâ— your Consciences that made a few Ceremonies to be Popery and Antichristianism so that upon their account you must call upon the people in Sion to war against Babylon Either you are the greatest Cheats in the World or else you differ from your Church at least in those points wherein as I have shewn you come so near to us chuse you which you please As for your loving and honouring the reformed Churches beyond Sea and the first Reformators of this I find no such thing in your Books but rather that you lov'd and honour'd your selves far beyond them all Mr. Dury in his Sermon to the Parliament upon these words Depart ye c. Isai 52.11 is pretty plain in it p. 5. I chose these words saith he because the destruction of Babylon and the deliverance of the Church out of it is the great work which God intends to accomplish by the Gospel in these latter times and because of the relation wherein we do stand to it for I conceive that God is not only working out our deliverance to bring us out of Babylon at this time c. Where could you have been worse than in Babylon before the good men in King Edward the fixth's time had done any thing towards a Reformation So you may hear him say at the 25 pag. None of all the Magistrates or Ministers of other Nations have ever given such an answer to this Call to come out of Babylon as you and we of the Ministry and this people have done for we have undertaken the Cause in the full extent thereof therefore we are in this employment nearer unto God than any others and he is more interest in us and in Scotland than in any other Nation whatsoever Two Witnesses more I hope will make the thing credible Mr. Boden in his Sermon Revel 18.6 Reward her as p. 9. c. saith 'T is no wonder that our forefathers did little or nothing against the Beast and the Babylonians for their eyes were blinded they could not see to work much less to fight but that we having clear visions and full discoveries made of the Beast and her abominations should sit still and be careless and suffer her for ever to play her beastly pranks is a most deadly shame and stain unto us And Mr. Tho. Goodwin in his foresaid Sermon Others had had the honour in the first Age of reforming p. 52. and we had been like blear-eyed Leah yet since we have been abundantly the more fruitful of Saints faithful and chosen And indeed the truth is you went so far beyond all other Reformers that you might well despise them as having done their work very imperfectly to what you did Pr. I took you to be but a Priest but I doubt you are a Jesuite too for you can turn other mens words to what sense you please I believe those good men meant no such thing as the interpretation you give to their words But whether they did or no 't is nothing to us we pin our faith upon no mans sleeve if they have said or done any thing amiss we utterly disclaim it We own the Kings Supreme Authority and we own the Doctrine of the Church of England and to prove the contrary by particular mens words as you have endeavoured to do is altogether lost labour because their Opinions is not the Rule we follow So that all your Quotations evince nothing of what you intended and you well deserve to be laugh'd at for having taken such a huge deal of bootless pains in repeating other mens words Pa. Very well 't is but making up your mouth and wiping of it and looking very demure and then you have done nothing and so you think you can abuse the world everlastingly But stay Sir dear-bought experience hath taught us that your goodly words are little to be trusted and you have approved your selves such incomparable Jugglers that we will see what you tell us before we believe it In the highest of your Rebellion you were for the King forsooth much more now he reigns Th. Palmer was Minister of the Army raised for King and Parliament as he stiles himself in the Title of his Sermon 1644. Mr. Beech at the Siege of Basing was fighting for the King pag. 24. We honour the King we fight for him we resolve though it cost us our lives we will have his love and his presence again And John Arrowsmith before the House of Commons calls him his Dear Sovereign 1613. p. 13. They saith he that brought our King into this Civil War are a Generation of scornful men that laugh at our Builders as Sanballat and his Complices did at Nehemiah What is this thing as ye do will ye rebel against the King a Generation which can neither find in their hearts to afford a good word of advice to our Dread and Dear Sovereign c. But 't is more than probable that by a worse than Jesuitical Equivocation you meant only a notional King the workmanship of your deceitful Brains for so we find a cunning distinction between the King and the Kings Person Tho. Case in his Sermon to the Court-Martial on 2 Chron. 29.6 7. And Jehoshaphat said unto the Judges Take heed what ye do c Tell them That though they had not a Jehoshaphat to give them that charge in his personal capacity yet they had him in his political capacity So Robert Austin D. D. printed a Book intending to prove 1644. That by the Oath of Allegiance the Parliament was bound to take up Arms though against the Kings personal command for the just defence of the Kings Person Crown and Dignity So you might be sure by such means ever to be for him and have him of your side whatever you did for so Mr. Burroughs prov'd by the same art pag. 27. That his most Loyal Party was not fighting against the King but for the King for the preservation of true Regal Power in the King and his Posterity and to rescue him from the hands of evil men who were his greatest Enemies And he said pag. 57. That the Saints and most Religious had ventured their Lives Fortunes Children and all for the safety of the King One would have taken him then for a great Royalist but that there was an unlucky Equivocation in the case The Scripture saith he pag. 28. bids us to be