Luke where writing vpon these words It is written thou shalt adore the Lord thy God and serue him alone he speakes both exactly and amply with all some saith he peraduenture will demand how these two be reconciled together to wit what is here commanded to sErue God alone and that of the Apostle scrue one another mutually out of Charitie But this findes an easie solution out of the originall Greeke text whence the Scripture was translated where the seruice is named in two different manners bearing withall a diuers signification for it is called both Latria and Dulia true it is that Dulia is taken for a common seruice that is à seruice which of its owne nature is indifferently exhibited to God or any other thing whatsoeuer Whence also we haue the word seruant which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Latria contrarily is taken for that seruice alone which belongs to the worship of the Diuinitie which is communicable to noe creature at all Wherevpon they are pronounced Idolaters who offer vowes prayers and Sacrifices to Idols which they owe to God alone Wherfore we are commanded to serue one another through Charitie which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And we are commanded to serue God alone with that worship which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Againe Let vs alwayes serue such a Queene who forsakes them not who hope in her Iesus Christ being pleased in and hearing the prayers of the Saints doth much more heare his mother when she prayes for sinners In one of his Sermons of our Blessed Lady in his 7. Tome Againe Let vs demand for vs the frequent intercessions of the Saints be they Angels or men to the mercy of our gracious Creatour Vpon the Cant. l. 4. c. 24. Againe Let vs pray to all the Saints to make intercession for vs to God In a Serm. vpon the great Litanics Tome 7. Hauing now giuen full satisfaction as I presume to any impartiall reader not onely that all these specious passages alleadged out of the Holy Fathers against vs conclude nothing at all many of them being manifestly corrupted others forced others mistaken but contrarily hauing euidently made good by positiue and plaine allegations out of the said Fathers others I would not in this short discourse though with great facilitie I could haue alleadged that they are wholly for vs I will passe on to another of his assertions spoken and put downe vnder his hand with an admirable confidence against Purgatorie in these tearmes OF PVRGATORIE Cos. THAT none of the Greeke Fathers holds Purgatorie in the sense in which the Councell of Trent holds it Car. I beleeue Mr. Cosens were you obliged to make alwayes good the propositions which vpon all occasions you aduance with such an absolute boldnes and in such a generalitie as this is now asseuered you would fall as farre short in your proofes as you ouerlash in your positions The Councell of Trent consisted if we should euen abstract from the assistance of the holy Ghost which I dare not thinke was wanting not haue I any reason for it no more then for the first foure Generall Councels that assistance being promised to the Church in generall in what tyme or place soeuer that the spirit of trueths hall be with you for euer in aeternum S. Iohn cap 14. And shall teach you all trueth ibid cap. 16. of such a companie of learned and pious Prelates and other Ecclesiasticall persons as it ought in common sense to be exeÌ„pted from the rash censure of euery single opponeÌ„t whilest it is generally admitted in all matters of Faith by all the symbolicall Church spread ouer all the world and in communitie with the Church of Rome and was reiected by none saue onely by a diminutiue part of the least part of the world Europe which actually then made a schisme from it which was then confessedly the onely visible Church of Christ Howbeit for euery ones satisfaction we will heare what the greeke Fathers haue saâ—d vpon this subiect S. Denis And then the diuine Prelate drawing neere Ecclesiast Hier. c. 7. he finisheth his holy prayer ouer the deceased and after the prayer the same Prelate salutes him and withall all the assistants euery one in their ranke This prayer petitions the diuine mercy to pardon all the sinnes which the deceased had committed through humane frailitie and that he would place them in light and in the Land of the liuing and in the bosome of Abraham Isaac and Iacob in the place where forrow sadnes and wailling is banished c. Origene l. 8. in Rom. 11. He alone to whom the Father hath giuen all iudgement is able to know for how long a tyme or what ages sinners may be tormented in this purgation which is made by fire Euseb Alexandrinus Memento c. Hem. de Dominica Be myndfull in the oblation or as we now say put them into your Memento of your parents and brethren who are already departed this life for by this meanes you procure great rest to the dead Accomplish thy prayers S. Zenon Serm. de Resur extat to 2. â— b. PP By her he speakes of a widow lamenting the death of her husband profane wailing she interrupted the diuine solemnities wherin the Priests were accustomed to commend the deceased to God Eusebius Caesariensis In vita Constan l. 4 cap. 71. A great multitude of people together with the Priests not without teares and truly with great expression of sorrow powred out prayers to God for the soule of the Emperour c. Athanasius Quaestione 34. Why then doe euen the soules of sinners perceiue any benefit when assemblies are made for them exhibitions of good workes and oblations If they did participate no benefit therby there would be no commemoration made in the care taken and in their funeralls But as the vine doth flourish abroad in the fields and the wine shut vp in the vessell resents its odour and flourisheth together with it so we vnderstand that the soules of sinners doe partake some benefit by the vnbloudie sacrifice and good workes done for them as our God alone doth order and command who hath power ouer the liuing and the dead OBSERVATION Behold the soules of sinners haue benefit by the vnbloudie sacrifice and good workes done for them Cyrillus Hierâ—â—ol Catechesi Myâ—ag 5 And then as soone as that spirituall sacrifice and that vnbloudie worship ouer that propiiiatorie hostâ— propitiationis Hostia is performed we beseech God for the coÌ„mon peace of the Churches for the quiet of the world forkings for soldiers And then we make mention of such as dyed before vs. First of the Patriarches Prophets Apostles Martyrs that God by their prayers would receiue ours Then for the deceased Fathers and Bishops Finally we pray for all those who dyed from amongst vs beleeuing that it is a great helpe to their soules for whom the obsecration or prayer of that holy and
obserued where he exclaimes against that pompous title of vniuersall saying It is euident to all who know the Gospell that the care of the whole Church is committed by our Lords voyce to S. Peter the Apostle the Prince of all the Apostles for to him it was said Peter doest thou loue me feede my sheepe c. beholde he receiues the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the power of binding ad loosing is giuen to him the care and principalitie principatus soueraigntie or dominion of the whole Church is committed to him and yet he is not called vniuersall Apostle OBSERVATION Receiue from saint Gregories owne mouth then that the Sea Apostolique is the head of all the Churches That all Bishops found in fault are subiect to it That Peter was placed ouer all the Churches That the Roman Church is the head of all the Churches That it is knowne to all that know the Gospell that the Care of the whole Church is committed by our Lord himselfe to Peter the Prince of all the Apostles and that yet he is not called vniuersall Apostle What other thing is this I pray then to crye out with a lowde voyce and to make open demonstration to all the world that while he exclaymes against the title of vniuersall Bishop he refuses not the headship of all the Churches but professeth to haue iurisdiction and superintendencie ouer all the other Bishops Archbishops and Patriarkes as doth partly appeare by what I haue alreadie cited out of him and more fully shall yet appeare in my ensuing discourse THE II. TITLE WHEREBY saint Gregorie makes good the supremacie is The exercice of such power all ouer the Christian world FIRST ouer the Bishops of Europe l. 12. Ep. 15. to s. Aug. in particular ouer the Bishops of England Let the Bishop of Yorke order 12. Bishops and enioy the honour of a Metropolitane but let all the Bishops of England be subiect to thy brotherhood Secondly l. 7. Ep. 112. ouer the Bishops of France Granting the vse of the Pall to the Bishop of Auston he saith And withall we perceiued we were to grant that the Church of the cittie of Auston should be after the Church of Lions and to challenge to it selfe this place and rancke by the fauour indulgentia of our Authoritie Thirdly ouer the Bishops of Spayne saying Let him who presumed while the innocent Bishop was yet aliue to be ordered in his Church against the Canons being depriued of priesthood be cast out of all Church-ministerie and withall let him be kept in safe custodie or els be sent vnto vs. Let the Bishops who ordered him being depriued of the Communion of the body and bloud of our Lord for the space of six monthes be appointed to doe pennance in a Monasterie Fourthly l. 7. Ep. 32. Ouer the Bishops of Africa In particular thus to the Bishop of Carthage By louing the Sea Apostolique you baue recourse to the source of your office or dignitie knowing whence priestly ordination had its beginning in Africa Againe l. 10. Ep. 2. Writing to Columbus a Bishop of Numidie c. he saith You are diligently to examine all the contents of his Petition to witt Donadeus Deacon degraded by Victor a Bishop of Numidie and if his complaint be accompanied with truth let canonicall rigour be vsed against his Bishop Victor Fiftly l. 2. Ep. 6. Ouer the Bishops of Greece In particular ouer Iohn Bishop of Iustiniana prima in these words As for the present hauing first disannulled and made of no effect the Decrees of thy sentence we decree by the authoritie of Blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles that for thirtie dayes space thou shalt be depriued of the holy Communion that with verie great pennance and teares thou mayst preuayle with Almightie God to pardon thy so great an excesse And if we shall come to perceiue that thou doest coldly performe our sentence know that then not barely thy iniustice but the contumacie also of thy brotherhood shall be more seuerely punished Againe l. 5. Ep. 7. Writing to the Bishops of Epirus he saith Know that we haue sent a Pall to Andrew our brother and fellow-Bishop and haue graunted or confirmed him all the priuiledges which our predecessours conferred vpon his Againe Writing to Iohn Bishop of Corinth l. 4. Ep. 51. touching Secūdinus a Bishop whom he had deputed to examine and depose one Anastasius Bishop quam causam ei examinandam iniunximus he saith And because in that sentence whereby it is euident that the fore named Anastasius was iustly condemned and deposed our fore-mentioned brother and fellow Bishop so punished certaine persons that he reserued them to our arbitrimēet And a litle after speaking of another we pardō him this fault and we appoint that he should be receiued in his rancke and place Againe We will haue them to witt Euphemius and Thomas to remayne deposed as they are and we decree that they shall neuer more be receiued into holy orders vnder what pretext of excuse soeuer Sixtly l. 5. Ep. 14. Writing to Marinianus Bishop of Rauenna vpō the difference which was betweene his Church and Claudius the Abbot he saith And doe not you your selfe know that in the cause which was agitated by Iohn Priest against Iohn of Constantinople our brother and fellow Bishop recourse was made to the Sea Apostolique following the Canons and the cause was ended definita by our Sentence And thence saint Gregorie frames an argument a fortiori in these words which immediatly follow If therfore the cause be deuolued to our knowledge euen from the Cittie where the Prince to witt the Emperour resides how much more is the busines which is against you to be determined or iudged here the trueth being knowne The like speeches bearing a face of authoritie with them are all his Epistles so full of as may with ease be seene in Dr. Sander's visible Monarchie that who would take the paines could hardly light vpon an Epistle where he should not meete with thē If he should looke vpon the 11. booke and 10. Epistle he would finde him instile the kings his sonnes saying according to the writing of our sonnes the most excellent kings c. And in the end of the same Ep. And we command that all these things shall be obserued for euer which are contayned in this our Decree as well by thy selfe he speakes to a certaine Abbot as by all those who shall succeede in thy place and rancke or whom it may otherwise concerne And if any king Priest Iudge or secular person hauing knowledge of this our Constitution shall offer to oppose it let him be depriued of his honour and dignitie and acknowledge that he stands guiltie of the iniquitie committed in the sight of the diuine iudgement And vnlesse he doe either restore the things which he wickedly tooke away or expiate his iniquitie with the teares of worthy repentance let him be kept from the most sacred body
Ecclesiae the word Primatus being so Englished by the best Grammarians is giuen to Peter c. They dare sayle to the Chaire of Peter and to the Principall or chiefe Church Epis 55. ad Cornelium Papam And writing to Stephen Pope of Rome he saith Let thy letters be dispatched into the Prouince of Arles and to the people there residing whereby Marciane who being Bishop of Arles fauoured the Nouatian heresie being excommunicated another may be substituted in his place and the flocke of Christ may be gathered together which to this day is contemned being dispersed and wounded by him Optatus Mileuitanus A Bishops chaire was first conferred vpon Peter in the Cittie of Rome In l. 2. cont Parmenianum wherein the HEAD of all the Apostles Peter sate c. Victor Vticensis And especially the Romane Church which is the HEAD of all the Churches In l. 2. de Persec Van. S. Augustine l. 2. de Bap. contra Donat. Peter the Apostle in whom the Primacie of the Apostles had the preeminencie with so exceellent a grace or aduantage Againe Like as all the causes of Mastership were in our Sauiour In quaest Noui Test q. 75. so after our Sauiour they are all conteyned in Peter for he constituted him to be the HEAD of them the Apostles that he might be the Pastor of our Lords flocke Eugenius who was one of Aurelius his Successours in the Archbishopricke of Carthage The Roman Church is the HEAD of all the Churches Fulgentius de Incarn Gratia c. 11. That which the Roman Church which is the HEAD or toppe of the world holds and teaches and which the whole Christian world together with it both beleeues without hesitation to Iustice and doubts not to confesse to faluation I conclude then that since it is most euident that the Africans were for vs Catholikes both in their words and practices as well before and in the fore said Councells as after the same it is altogether in vaine for the Protestants thence to hope for any helpe or support to their Cause Now Mr. C. hauing returned you a faire full and satisfactorie answer to each of your obiectioÌ„s permit me the fauour of one of your setled answers to that one onely demand which I then made and often iterated and still iterate as being the verie summe and abridgement of all controuersies to witt where was your Church in the yeare 1500. c. till the yeare 1517. when Luther began to storme This is the rule I haue bene taught by the ancient Fathers First by Irenaeus who had the happinesse to haue seene Policarpe S Iohns scholler We saith he can number those who were instituted Bishops in the Churches by the Apostles and their successâ—urs euen vnto vs who taught or knew noe such thing as these doe madly fancie to themselues And a little after But whereas it is too long to nuÌ„ber the successions of all the Churches in such a volume as this we coÌ„found all those who by any meanes gather more then they ought either by their wicked self-complacencie or vaine glorie or els by their owne blindnes and erroneous sense by pointing out that tradition which that greatest most ancient and most knowne Church to all men founded and established at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul and by faith announced to men brought downe euen vnto vs by the successions of Bishops for vnto this Church by reason of its more powerfull principalitie euery Church ought to resort that is all the faithfull all ouer the world wherein that TraditioÌ„ which is from the Apostles is conserued by those which are all ouer vndique And so names the Popes from Linus who succeeded S. Peter c. till Eleutherius who was in his tyme of whome he saith Now Eleutherius in the twelueth place hath the Bishopricke from the Apostles and he adds By this ordination and succession the TRADITION which is in the Church from the Apostles and the proclamation of Truth is brought downe vnto vs And this is a most absolute demonstration plenissima ostensio that it is conserued in the Church from the Apostles till this day and is deliuered ouer in truth Behold the succession of Bishops is esteemed by him and deliuered vnto vs for a certaine demonstration that those who haue it on their side haue the same liuely faith conserued euen from the Apostles tyme till this day Secondly by the learned Tertullian in the same age saying In Praescri p. c. 32. Let them produce the origin's of their Churches let them declare the row or processe of their Bishops so running downe from the beginning by successioÌ„s that that first Bishop may haue had some one of the Apostles or Apostolicall men which yet perseuered with the Apostles for his Authour and Predecessour Let the Heretikes saith he a little after euen forge any such thing if they can And he counts Peter Linus Cletus Clemens Anacetus Auarestus Alexander Sixtus c. Thirdly Optatus Mileuitanus In 4 Tom. carm contra Marcion saying In that singular vnica Chaire Peter first sate to whom Linus did succeede c. to Iulius Liberius to Liberius Damasus to Damasus Siricius at this day who is our fellow with whom or in whom all the world agrees with vs in one societie of Communion by the commerce of letters formed to witt a kind of circular or communicatorie letters vsed in those tymes to discouer them to be of the same coÌ„manion Produce the origine of your chaire you who will needs challenge the Holy Church to your selues Fourthly S. Augustine In his Ep. 165. thus If the order or processe of Bishops who succeede one another be considerable how much more certainly and indeed sauingly doe we count from Peter himselfe c. For Linus succeeded Peter c. and so counting downe to Anastasius who then was Pope he coÌ„cludes in these words in this ranke or lyne of succession no Donatist Protestant Bishop is found c. Now to know of what consideration and weight the succession is with the same S. Augustine le ts take it from himselfe in his Ep. Fundamenti cap 4. where he professeth that the succession of priests from the verie Sea of Peter the Apostle till this present Bishop-pricke most iustly retaynes him in the bosome of the Catholike Church That this is a reasonable demand in it selfe I am most confident because Fathers so learned and able prouoked to it in their tymes with so much confidence and taught others to doe the same It is necessarie saith Tertullian Praescrip c. 20. that euery familie should be brought backe and reduced to its origine And that it is reasonable in particular from vs it seemes no lesse euident because what we demand we are readie to exhibite to discerne whether you or we are true successours to S. Peter we name our men immediatly from him who haue succeeded one another till this day till this present
Popedome of Innocentius and we desire you fairely to produce the like euidence or els cease vniustly to pretende the succession which you can shew no right to Finally that it is the onely short and sure way to discerne trueth from falshood which is the onely thing we ought to ayme at the great Tertull. testifies and makes manifest What the Apostles preached saith he that is what Iesus Christ reuealed vnto them ought not to be tryed Praescrip c. 21. nor proued saue onely by the same Churches which the Apostles founded by preaching vnto them by word of mouth or afterwards by their Epistles Which things being so it is euident thence that all doctrine which doth conspire or agree with those Apostolicall Churches which are the Mothers matrices and sources of faith is to be esteemed true as holding without all controuersie what the Churches receiued of the Apostles the Apostles of Christ Christ of God Marrie all other doctrine ought to be preiudged of falsitie which sauours against the Truth of the Churches Apostles Christ and God c. But we Catholikes miscalled Papists communicate for the present and did communicate with the Apostolicall Church of Rome in her Pastour Alexander the VI. in the yeere 1500. as holding no doctrine contrarie to it but conspiring with it therefore our Doctrine is to be iudged true the contrarie to be preiudged false This concludes Tertullian is an EVIDENCE of Truth or accordin to Irenaeus plenissima ostensio a most full DEMONSTRATION Such a Demonstration it is which we demand of you in the hehalfe of your Protestant Church from the yeere 1500. downeward of your Church I say whether you define it as in the 39. Art The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithfull men Art 19. in which the pure word of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred c. Or as you describe it by oppositiō to ours tearming it a Congregation of men c. which opposeth Masses vnbloudie Sacrifice adoration of the consecrated hoste worship of Angels and Saints and prayer to them Purgatorie the Supremacie the infallibilitie of the Church c. Assigne the place where this Congregation appeared giue vp the names at least of some of their chiefe Bishops or Pastours or Doctors or Elders Verifie that they preached against the Masse vnbloudie Sacrifice c. Rationall and modest men will iudge I am spareing enough in these my demands sith it is to goe no further then a Definitione ad definitum to know where this Cōgregation c. then was yea euen your owne men confesse it For will not a Fulke against Fulke say that Pastors and Doctors haue alwayes bene in the Church Heskins and Sanders p. 69 and that they haue continually from Christ to Luthers tyme resisted false doctrine will not others maintaine b Bācroft in Recognitione pag. 441. That the administration of the word and Sacraments is absolutely necessarie to saluation c Willet in his synopsis pag. 71. That the Church continues no longer then it hath these markes d Hiper in his common places l 3. p. 548. That these markes ought to be externall and visible to the end men may know where the Church is and to what societie euery one of the faithfull ought to ioyne himselfe Finally e Whitgift in Def. p. 465. that the Church of God is not to be shut vp in one kingdome c. My demand is sparing enough then I say for I might well require further according to the Ancient Fathers Rules aboue to haue it euidently proued that such a Church or Congregation had alwayes bene in all tymes and places one and the same and that too made good by continuall and vninterrupted succession that so it might appeare to haue descended from some of the Apostles and consequētly be indeed as the true Church is defined in the Nicene Creede one holy Catholike Apostolique Howbeit knowing well that neuer yet any Protestant hath returned a faire answer euen to these few demands I will presume you will find it worke enough for the present to point vs out within the tyme prefixed The place where the Congregation was assembled The names of the Preachers or Preacher at least with euidence that he preached or held the Doctrine of the thirtienyne Art or what els may be meant by the pure word of God or opposed that which is contayned in the Councell of Trent And that they or he duely administred the Sacraments and that but two onely according to Christs ordinance c. Doe not I beseech you as you sometymes did name S. Ignatius That is too prodigious a leape at once to skippe aboue 1400. yeares backwards and yet not proue your affirmation neither to which euery disputant is lyable I could with like facilitie name him too and yet you would not admitt that for good payment You will please to remember the thing I demand is that you would acquaint vs with the names of some of your Bishops or Pastours c. in the beginning of the 16. Age not in the end of the first As S. Ignatius passed too tymely for our present purpose so Bishop Tunstall and B. Gardner came too sate though you made no bones to name them too but sure you were not serious with your friends in a subiect which exacted it or els your poore answer is a plaine conuiction how desperate your cause is They haue both left learned workes behind them which will euer speake them Roman Catholikes a Tunstall pag 47. de verit Corp. Christi Ed. Parisianae 1554. The Transubstantiation and the b Idem in codem lib. pag. 93. Sacrifice of the Masse are not tenets of the Protestant Church to name no more a Et Gard. in Confutatione c. pag. 73. Nor did Bishop Tunstall sure dye a Prisoner in Lambeth in Queene Elisabeths tyme for being a Protestant b Idem in codem lib. p. 5. If this assertion then to witt that Bishop Tunstall and Bishop Gardner helped to continue the succession of the Protestant Church which came accompanied with noe countenance or apparence of Truth were tearmed impudent what wrong were done to it since it could not fall from a man as hauing any thing of satisfaction any face of reason but as a Mercurie of euery wood to stand in the light and to stoppe the course of Truth which S. Augustine might haue haply tearmed inanissimam vocem temeritatisque plenissimam l. de moribus Ecclesiae Cath. c. 29. For was it euer written euer affirmed euer called in question by any By any I doe not say by Catholikes but euen by Protestants themselues Nay doe not euen a In l. de Praesulibus Anglia in vita Tunstalli Good man and b In Elisabetha pag. 37. Camden deliuer the contrarie and put it out of all doubt Doe not flie to the Catholike Romane Church neither that were too poore a shift to begge a succession
were yet cloathed with a fleshly garment The seconde in these Further we offer vnto thee this reasonable obseruance for the faithfull departed for our brethren and sisters by the interuention of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles Martyrs Confessours and all the Saints Againe Remember ô Lord as being good thy seruants and pardon what euer they trespassed in their life OBSERVATION Loe a Memento Domine pronounced aloude Prayer made for the dead that they might be deliuered from darknes tribulation and sorrow pardoned what in this life they might haue offended oblation made for them The intercessions of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles c. employed Iudge whether it is the Catholike or Protostant practice which is here expressed and whether of these doeth more emulate the primitiue customes of their forefathers By these more then sufficient testimonies of the Greeke Fathers in their writings Councell Liturgies c. it is most manifest that it was and is the practice of the Greeke Church to offer Sacrifice to giue Almes to pray for the soules departed that their sinnes might be pardoned and they deliuered from their purging paynes their purging fire wherby what is vicious and corrupt might be purged It rests onely that we shew that it is in the sense in which the Councell of Trent holds it which is that which Mr. Cosens denies Heare the Councell of Trent Whereas the Catholike Church instructed by the holy Ghost Sess 25. by holy Writt and the ancient Tradition of Fathers hath taught in holy Councells and lastly in this vniuersall Synode that there is a Purgatorie and that the soules there detayned are helped by the suffrages of the faithfull but especially by the Sacrifice of the acceptable Altar the holy Synode commands the Bishops to vse a diligent endeauour that the wholsome doctrine of Purgatorie deliuered by the holy Fathers and Councells be beleeued held taught and preached euery where by the Faithfull of Christ Againe If any affirme that after the receipt of iustifying grace the fault is so remitted and the guilt of eternall paines so blotted out to any penitent sinner Sess 6. can 30. that there remaynes no guilt of tempor all punishment to be payed either in this life or the next in Purgatorie before we can get entrie into the kingdome of heauen let him be accursed What I pray is here which sounds not the verie same beares not the same sense with the precedent passages of the Greeke Fathers The Councell of Trent saith There is a Purgaterie The Grecian Fathers say A Furnace of purging fire The Councell of Trent affirmes that the Catholique Church instructed by the Holy Gh. c. was taught this doctrine by holy Scripture and the ancient Tradition of Fathers The Grecian Fath. The holy Ghost disposed all these things They were not rashly inuented They were not established in vaine by the Apostolicall lawes The Councell of Trent auerres That the soules there detayned to witt in Purgatorie are helped by the suffrages of the faithfull especially by the Sacrifice of the Altar The Grecian Fath. That the soules of sinners partake some benefit by the vnbloudie Sacrifice and good workes done for them That they prayed for all those who dyed from among them beleeuing that it is a great helpe to their soules for whom the obsecration of the holy and dreadfull Sacrifice which is put vpon the Altar is offered and the price of our Redemption is put downe That Oblations Prayers Almes are not made in vaine for the dead The Priest prayes that the deceased may find his Iudge more propitious That God would become propitious to the sinnes not onely of the liuing but also of the dead That it is an vndoubted custome in the Catholike and Apostolicall Church The Councell of Trent commands That the wholsome doctrine of Purgatorie should be beleeued held taught preached c. The Grecian Fath. beleeue hold teach and preach it The Councell of Trent accurses such as deny that after we haue receiued iustifying grace there remaynes any guilt of tempor all punishment either to be payed in this life or in the next in Purgatorie c. The Grecian Fath. affirme that such as are in purging paynes are helped to be freed from them by the suffrages of the faithfull yet liuing to witt by the Sacrifices of Masses prayers almes and other workes of pietie That the sinners which dye are not alwayes sent to hell That the oblations and distributions which are performed for the dead doc not à litle conduce euen to such as dyed in great sinnes Was there euer or euen could there euer be imagined a greater and sweeter harmonie vpon any point of doctrine betwixt the East and the west the Greeke and the Latine Church Is ouum ouo similius Is it not then a boldnes without the warrantie of all reason to affirme the contrarie point blank to witt forsooth that they held it not in the sense the Councell of Trent held it Did they at least hold it in the sense it is held by the Prot. Church of England in her 39. Articles Where she saith The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatorie c. is a fond thing vainely inuented and grounded vpon no warrantie of Scripture but rather repugnant to the word of God Obserue the contrariety betwixt the Greeke and English Protestant Church Origene Sinners are tormented in a purgation made by fire The Prot. Church of England It is a fond thing Article 22. Eusebius Alexand. By the meanes of prayers great rest is procured to the dead The Prot. Church of England It is a thing vainely inuented Art 22. S. Athanasius The soules of sinners haue benefit by the vnbloudie Sacrifice and good workes done for them The Prot. Church of Eng. The Sacrifices of Masses in the which it was comonly said Art 31. that the Priests did offer Christ for the quicke and the dead to haue remission of payne or guilt were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceipts Cyrillus Hier. A dreadfull Sacrifice put vpon the Altar and offered for our sinnes The Prot. Church of Eng. Blasphemous fables dangerous deceipts Cyrillus Hier. He beleeued that it to witt prayer for the dead was a great helpe to their soules The Prot. Art 22. Church of Eng. A fond thing vainely inuented S. Greg. Nyssenus Expiation after death by purging fire The Prot. Church of Eng. There is no other satisfaction for sinne but that alone Art 31. to witt the bloudie oblation finished once vpon the Crosse S. Chrysostome A Doctrine of the diuine mercy The Prot. Church of Eng. A fond thing Art 22. S. Chrys A thing not rashly inuented The Prot. Church of Eng. A thing Vainely inuented S. Chrys Disposed by the Holy Ghost The Prot. Art 31. Church of Eng. A dangerous deceipt S. Chrys An Apostolicall Constitution that memorie should be made of the soules departed in the diuine mysteries The Prot. Church of Eng. Art 22. Grounded vpon no warranty of Scripture
but rather repugnant to the word of God In fine S. Damascene Deliuers it for an vndoubted custome in the Catholike and Apostolike Church to make memorie of the Dead in the vndloudie Sacrifice But the Prot. Church of England will haue it to be a fond thing vainely inuented and the Sacrifice of the Masse ablasphemous fable a dāgerous deceipt rather repugnant to the word of God See what a goodly accord there is betweene the ancient Greeke Fathers and our new Reformers or rather behold their apparently iarring and irreconcileable discord which the smoothest witt is not able euen speciously to appease or to tune it vp to any their least aduantage Their stale and cold replies drawen from the diuersitie which they pretend to be amongst Catholikes themselues vpon this subiect gaine no credit nor are of any moment with rationall men As That they agree not about the place where Purgatorie should be Nor about the Tormentors whether Angels or Deuills Nor about the torments whether by fire or water or neither Nor about the causes of the torments of Purgatorie whether veniall sinnes onely or mortall sinnes also for which full satisfaction hath not bene made in this life Nor about the tyme which the soules tormented may remayne in Purgatorie c. Nor about their state c. For all these things swarue from the purpose as not coming home to the state of the question betwixt vs and the English Protestants which is Whether there be a Purgatorie not where the place of Purgatorie is who are the Tormenters what torments there be whether pure and true fire or some other thing equiualent c. of all which we pronounce with S. Basile Superuacua in Ecclesia sileant Let not superfluous and vnnecessarie questions be heard of in the Church especially so farre as to confound matter of Faith with matter of opinion Now these things touching the place of Purgatorie c. passe among Catholikes for matters of opinion not of Faith and are with amitie humilitie and submission disputed in our schooles but haue not yet bene defined in our Councells whence the beleife or not beleife of them are of free choyce amongst vs we being neither made of the number of the faithfull by that nor miscreants by this We are not of those presumptuous soules who thinke to haue accesse to all the diuine secrets while we know by Saint Paul that we are none of his Counsellours We are willingly persuaded by S. Basile to prayse what we haue receiued vpon the accompt of faith and what hath bene deliuered ouer in trust to vs but doe not curiously sound hidden mysteries We finally receiue of the Catholique Romane Church that there is A Purgatorie and of that we dare not doubt but where and what it is c. she hauing of that deliuered no Decree in all humilitie we dispute nor doe our doubts therin violate touch or call in question the beleife of Purgatorie that stands still vndoubted and inuiolable Since therefore all the Easterne Bishops and Fathers as we haue seene deliuer the same doctrine with one heart one mouth one faith touching purging fire c. Prayer Almes Sacrifice for the dead c. wherby great rest is procured to their soules may not I iustly admire to heare one man stand vp and affirme the cōtrarie and that with so much confidence as that he feared not to passe his word to yeald himselfe à Catholike vpon the proof of it Contra Iulianum l. 2. s. 2. and may I not with iust offence speake to him in S. Aug. words saying To what purpose doc these your words serue but to make euident to the world either how negligent you haue bene to acquaint your selfe with the words and sence of Catholike Doctors in this behalfe or hauing vsed diligence to know them with what fraude you goe about to circumuent the ignorant c. Si nesciens hoc fecisti cur non miseram respuis imperitiam si sciens cur non sacrilegam deponis audaciam si cernis cerne tandem tace Pelagianam Lutheranam linguam tot linguis Catholicis deprime tot venerandis oribus proterua ora submitte Hitherto I haue insisted vpon the productions of the Greeke Fathers authoritie onely because the challenge called thither alone though I could haue vsed a more sure and satisfactorie way the Scriptures as they are vnderstood both by the Greeke and Latine Fathers together with the practice of the whole Church of God and haue said with S. Augustine Vbisupra I conceiue that part of the world ought to suffice you in which it pleased our Lord to crowne the first of his Apostles with a most glorious Martyrdome if you would haue giuen care to Blessed Innocentius presiding ouer that Church you had forthwith freed your perilous youth from the Pelagian Lutheran snares For what could that holy man haue answered to the African Councells Anglicanis conuicijs but what the Apostolicall and Romane sea holds with the rest of the Churches c. There is no reason therefore to prouoke to the Bishops of the East because they two are Christians and that faith of both the parts of the world is one and the same because faith it selfe is Christian and certes the Westerne part brought you out the westerne Church did regenerate you c. It rest that I make the great Saint Augustine alone speake for the practice of the Latine Church and himselfe because I perceiued by a paper which M◠Cosens himselfe presented me with that he had vsed some endeauour to drawe him to his side or at least if he could preuayle no further to render his testimonie doubtfull to the end that he or others might build wood hay stubble or worse vpon that mistaken foundation which he doth most clearely in these ensuing passages S. AVGVSTIN CONF. lib. 9. cap. 12. The Sacrifice of our price is offered for her Sacrifice offered for her soule And. c. 13. booke the same Now I beseech thee heare me for the sinnes of my Mother He prayes for her sinnes Againe a little after She desired onlie that à Memorie should be made of her at thy Altar She desired to be remembred at the Altar at which she serued without intermitting any day where she knew the holie victime was dispensed wherby the hand-writing was blotted out which was contrarie to vs. To these passages some haue made answer that they doe admitt prayer for the Dead a Commemoration to be made for them at the Altar yea and Sacrifice to be offered also Howbeit not as we meane to deliuer them from their paines but for diuers other effects And that thereby we cannot enforce a Purgatorie nor did S. Augustine speake of purging fire Let the holy Father therefore answere for himselfe S. Augustine li. 2. c. 20. de Genesi against the Manichees After this life he shall haue either purging fire Purging fire or eternall punishment So farre are anie from escaping this sentence
of her against whose Idolatrie you dayly crye out Nor is it that Church we enquire after we know that that Cittie placed vpon a hill neuer lay hidd that Tabernacle seated in the sunne was alwayes illustrious constant permanent we can bring in reum confitentem vpon that subiect we haue conuictions from our Aduersaries owne mouthes c The surueyer of the pretended discipline 6.8 Priests of all sorts together with the people frō the topp to the toe were drowned in the puddles or dregges of poperie saith one Euen 1260. yeares the Pope and his Clergie possessed the outward and visible Church of Christians raygning without any debatable contradiction saith another d Luther de Capt. Bab. de Bap. The Popes tyrānie for many ages hath extinguished Faith c. saith a third This Idolatrous Romane Harlot then this chaire of pestilence this whore of Babylon for thus yours please to qualifie the Spouse of Christ his wholly faire in whom there is found no spott or blemish was easily found by such as euen sought her not she liued she raigned soueraignely too without contradiction entirely without limitation or reserue ouer priest and people perseuerantly euen for the space of 1260. yeares But we desire Remember I pray to haue the obligation to be ledd to the Protestants Church within the tyme prefixed to heare their sermons to see the administration of their two Sacraments onely let this be shewen and we are readie to communicate with them vnder what kinde or kinds they please But if as it indeed neuer was so it be impossible it should be proued nay if the same be publikely professed by your owne Authours saying In the ages past there was no face of a true Church for some ages the pure preaching of the word vanished e Inst l. 4. c. 1. § 11. so Caluin From 400. yeares and more the Religion of Christ was wholly turned into Idolatrie adds f in his Acts pag. 767. Fox The Church was at that tyme inuisible and could not be shewen confesseth Regius g lib. Apol. pag. 176. The Truth was then vnknowne and vnheard of when Martin Luther c. openly pronounceth h In Apo. p. 4. c. 4. Diuis 2. I uell We say that for many ages before Luthers tyme a generall Apostasie ouerspred the face of the earth nor was our Church in that tyme conspicuous or visible to the world concludes i In exposit symb p. 400. Perkins permitt me to aske by what iniquitie are poore soules fedd or rather starued with falsitie and to conclude with that strongly reasoning Tertullian in the person of the Catholike Church saying who are you when and whence came you what doe you doe in my possession being none of myne By what right dost thou ô Marcion ô Protestant cutt downe my wood By what prerogatiue dost thou ô Valentine diuerte my fountaines By what authoritie dost thou ô Apelles transport my bounds THIS POSSESSION IS MYNE why presume you being strangers to feede and sowe herein at your pleasure THE POSSESSION IS MYNE I POSSESSE IT OF OLD I POSSESSE IT FIRST I HAVE SVRE RECORDS OR EVIDENCES FROM THE OWNERS TO WHOM THE THINGS BELONG I AM THE HEIRE OF THE APOSTLES And this by best right may the Catholike Romane Church affirme because she alone is able by her neuer interrupted succession of her Bishops to deriue her pedigree from the same Apostles Counting confidently without fearing to be contradicted by any though her verie enemyes In the first Age. Petrus Linus Cletus Clemens The 2 Age. Anacletus Euaristus Alexander sixtus I. Ye'esphorus Hyginus Pius Anicetus Soter Ileutherius Victor The 3. Age. Zephyrinus Calistus Vrbanus Pontianus Anterus Fabianus Cornelius Lucius Stephanus Sixtus II. Dionysius Felix Eutychianus Caius Marcellinus The 4. Age. Marcellus Eusebius Miltiades Syluester Marcus Iulius Liberius Felix II. Damasus Siricius Anastasins The 5. Age Innocentius I. Zozymus Bonifacius Celestinus I. Sixtus III. Leo magnus Hilarius Simplicius Felix III. Celasius I. Anastafius II. Symmachus The 6. Age. Hormisdas Ioan. I. Felix IV. Bonifacius II. Ioannes II. Agapitus Syluer us Vigilius Pelagius Ioanues III. Benedictus I. Pelagius II. Gregorius magnus The 7. Age. Sabinianus Bonifacius III. Bonifacius IV. Deusdedit Bonifacius V. Honorius I. Seuerinus Ioan. IV. Theodorus Martinus I. Eugenius Vitatianus Adeodatus Donatus Agatho Leo Benedictus II. Ioan. V. Conon Sergius The 8. Age. Ioannes VI. Ioannes VII Sisinnius Constantinus Gregorius II. Gregorius III. Zacharias Stephanus II. Stephanus III. Paulus I. Stephanus IV. Adrianus Leo III. The 9. Age. Steph. V. paschalis Eugenius II. Valentinus Gregorius IV. Sergius II. Leo IV. Benedictus III. Nicol. I. Hadrian II. Ioan. VIII Martinus Hadrianus III. Stephanus VI. Formosus Bonifacius VI. Stephanus VII The 10. Age. Ioan IX Benedict Leo Christoph Sergius Anast Lando Ioan X Leo VI. Stephanus Ioannes Leo VII Stephanus Martinus Agapitus Ioannes Leo Benedictus Ioannes Donus Benedictus Benedictus Ioannes Ioannes Ioannes Gregorius V. Syluester II. The 11. Age. Ioannes XVII Ioannes XVIII Sergius V. Benedictus VIII Ioannes XX. Benedictus IX Gregorius VII Clem. Damas Leo Vict. Steph. IX Nicol. Alexand. Greg VII Vict. Vrban Paschas The 12. Age. Gelas Calixtus Honorius II. Innocentius II. Gelestinus II. Lucius Eugenius Anastasius IV. Hadrlanus Alexand. Lucius Vrbanus Gregorius VIII Clemens III. Celestinus III. Innocentius III. The 13. Age. Honorius III. Gregorius IX Celestinus IV. Innocentius IV. Alexander IV. Vrbanus IV. Clemens Gregorius Innocent Hadrian Nicol. Martinus Honorius IV. Nicol. Celestinus Bonifacius VIII The 14. Age. Benedictus X Clemens V. Ioannes XXI Benedictus XI Clemens VI. Innocentius VI. Vrbanus V. Gregorius XI Vrbanus VI. Bonifacius IX The 15. Age. Innocentius VII Gregorius XI Alexander V. Ioannes XXII Martinus III. Eugenius IV. Nicolaus V. Cailistus III. Pius II. Paulus II. Sixtus Innocēt VII Alexander VI. The 16. Age. Pius III. Iulius Leo Hadrianus Clemens Paulus Iulius Marcellus Paulus IV. Pius IV. Pius V. Gregorius XIII Sixtus V. Vrban VII Gregorius XIV Innocentius IX Clemens VIII The 17. Age. Leo XI Paulus V. Gregorius XV. Vrbanus VIII Innocentius X. Thus did S. Irenaeus bring downe the successiō of the Church by naming the Bishops of Rome who immediatly succeeded one another from S. Peter to his tyme. And he iudges it a most ABSOLVTE DEMONSRATION Thus did Tertullian c. And he puts it downe for an EVIDENCE of TRVTH Thus did Optatus c. And he concludes that in Pope Siricius who then sate all the world agreed with them Africans in one Communion Thus did S. Augustine c. And he cōfesses it retaynes him in the bosome of the CATHOLIKE CHVRCH Thus finally doe we Catholikes to this day And we instantly demand 1. Why the like proceeding should not be held an absolute Demonstration an Euidence of Truth as well from vs as from them 2. Why we English Catholikes may not by as good right be said to agree with all the world in one Communion in Pope INNOCENTIVS who sitts
animique male compositi malam sententiam res fingere verbáque formare indigna Romano Pontifice ab hoc vno tampatenti mendacio caetera discas caueas videasque qua tunc sit homo fide dignus cuÌ„ totus sit in carpendis Rom. Eccles Pontificibus And therfore his accusation of the Pope for exacting a great summe of mony of the Councell first as it is impertinent to your buisinesse for his couetounsesse could not nullifie the Canons of the Councell so also is it most vnlikely to be true because Paris is recorded for a slanderer and Pope Innocent III. for a worthy and excellent man d Nauclerus vol. 2. p. 876. Nauclerus calleth him vir doctrina moribus insignis And Platina in his life saith constat cum in quouis genere vitae probatissimum fuisse dignumque qui inter Sanctos Pontifices censeatur And againe in the next words to those you cite cuius vita adeo probata fuit vt post eius mortem nihil eorum quae in vita egerit laudauerit improbaueritque immutatum est The same also saith Nauclerus and adds quin religionis apprimè studiosus But you are glad to cite any thing to the disparagement of à Pope though there be no colour of truth for it Now that nothing at all was done in this Councell which is the mayne matter you driue at e Vol. 2. p. â—15 for which you haue misinterpreted the meaning of Platina and Paris is very vntrue Which I proue first by the authority of Gregory IX who liued in the time of this Councell and was created Pope but about eleuen yeares after and commanded the Decrees should be put in the body of the Canon law wherein hee vsed the seruice of Raymundus of whom Platina thus writeth e In vita Greg. IX fine Raymundum autem Barchino nensem quo adiutore in compilando libro Decretalium Gregorius vsus est ita quidam tà m laudant vt maiori commendatione laudari nemo possit So say the Annal Eeâ—lEs post Bason tom 13. p 459 XV. And Binius in the life of the sayd Gregory IX saith that this Raymundus was Canonized by Clement VIII Secondly S Thom. 4. sent dist 17. q 3. art 1 ad tertiam I proue it by the testimony of the greatest DIuines of that age S. Thomas and S. Bonauenture who speaking of the precept of yearly confession S Bonau 4. sent dist 17. q. 2. arg 3. say that the Church did institute it and the Fathers command it in this Councell Thirdly by the testimony of the Councell of Trent which speaking of the same Decree calls it Conc Trid sess 14 can 8. the constitution of the great Lateran Councell And that the Acts of this Councell were alwayes extant and are not counterfait appeares in that they now are and haue beene in the body of the Canon law euer since the time of Greg. IX who commanded them to be inserted and f Annal. Eecles post Baron tom 13. anno 1234. XV. anno 1234. which were but nineteene yeares after the Councell approued the collection Neither could any man haue meanes to know the truth of the Canons better than hee the Councell hauing beene held not long before by his vncle in that citty where hee being Pope could command the sight of all the monuments and many were still aliue who had beene present in the Councell celebrated but nineteene yeares before the publishing of these Canons knew therfore what was done in it better than those who were further remoued either in time as Platina was or in place as was Matthew Paris if they had as you suppose said any thing against it Nor was it likely that Pope Gregory either would or could haue obtruded them before the eyes of such great Prelats and Princes for decrees made in Councell had they not beene so indeed Nor would the Church the things there determined soe much concerning her nor they who did soe much emulate her proceedings haue beene silent had such a thing beene attempted Lastly I proue that there were Canons made in this Councell yea and that those Canons were receiued in England a thing which you deny towards the end of your discourse by a f Matth. Paris hist ma. anno 1222. generall CouÌ„cell so it is stiled of England held at Oxford by Stephen Archbishop of Canterbury in the yeare 1222. which was but seuen yeares after this of Lateran and about 12. yeares before the Canons therof were put into the Decretalls by Gregory IX where towards the end it is said g Binij CoÌ„oil tom 7. part 2.2 fol. 833. Vt autem omnia fine bono concludantur Lateranense Concilium sub sanctae recordationis Papa Innocentio celebratum in praestatione decimarum in aliis capitulis praecipimus obseruari But this is not all you haue to say against this Councell C. There be many things besides which may make vs iustly to suspect the authority of this pretended great Councell For first before Cochlaeus put 〈◊〉 forth it was neuer extant and it was but lately neither that hee put it forth in the yeare 1538. Three yeares before wheÌ„ Merlin put forth the Councells there was no such Councell that hee met withall to set out it is not in his edition But Cochlaeus a man not so well to be trusted who feigned many things in writing Luthers life tells vs that hee had the Decrees of this Councell out of an antient booke but where hee got that booke or who first compiled it or of what authority it was hee tells vs nothing at all It is most likely that antient booke was no other but the booke of the Popes Decretalls where those things that are said by him to be decreed in this Councell are heere and there scattered in seuerall places Those scatterings I belieue did Cochlaeus or some other collect together and made vp one body of them in manner and forme of a Councell But so illfauored a forme hath hee giuen it that often it betrayeth it selfe not to be genuine and taken out of any authenticke coppy ANSWER You further say that there are many things besides which may make you iustly suspect the authority of this pretended great Councell as you are pleased to call it I easily belieue that there are many things that make you not only to suspect but flatly to reiect the authority of this and many other Generall Councells but none iustly But it is not the authority of this Generall Councell which is the same in all but the verity of the Canons and Decrees therof you would haue sayd and the authority of theÌ„ that affirme those Decrees that you with so much sagacity suspect And if you thinke the Councell and the Canons thereof but pretended which are acknowledged true by the voyce of all the Catholiques of the world what shall make them to be accounted reall or shall the voyce of one pretended Deane
that you may againe fall into the fault of which you falsely accuse others you are out in your computation of the yeeres of the holding of the Councell of Florence but this I doe not mention as a matter of moment it being brought in but on the by But I cannot omitt a weighty passage that you haue a little before where you say that betweene the seuenth and the eighth generall Councell you trow there cannot come another if it were so great and so generall as this is sayd to be Wherby you intimate that the greatnesse of this Councell was the hinderāce that it could not come betweene the seuenth and the eighth and by consequence that if it had beene a little one it might haue come betweene which is a very new and pretty fancy A little generall Councell it seemes might haue crowded in betweene the seuenth and the eighth as an appendix to the former or otherwise haue found place and vnion with it vnder the same name and number of the seuenth but this being so great and so generall could not possibly finde a roome betwixt them but that it must make two eights as you say rather than an eighth and a ninth which ninth if it had beene so in this case might yet haue beene called the eighth in some other respect as I haue shewed But I had thought that Councells in regard of number being of discrete quantity did not require any place by reason of their greatnesse as if they were in this regard of continued quantity also more than if they had beene little the abstract number of eight I trow can no more come in betweene seuen and eight in a small subiect thā in a great and therfore the greatnesse of this Councell was no more hinderance to its coming in betweene the seuenth and the eighth without chāging the name and order of the number than if it had beene neuer so little You tell vs also that in the last session of the Councell of Florence it is expressely set downe Finis octaui Concilij generalis c. yet the words more expressely than you haue set thē downe are Finis generalis octauae Synodi which though not different in substance yet the difference of the words Concilium and Synodus if you had vnderstood the reason thereof had beene enough to preuent your obiection For it appeares hy an epistle of Bartholomaeus Abramus to the Archbishop of Rauenna set downe by Crab at the beginning of this Councell and by Binius at the end that the Latin Originall of this Councell was lost and that this that is now extant was translated by the sayd Abramus out of the Greeke for which reason he vseth the word Synodus according to the Greeke not Concilium and it is called octaua because it was so in the greeke which hee translated and the Greekes set it downe so because as I sayd before they accounted no Councells generall but where they themselues were present and which they did receiue of which this was indeed the eighth But this account is for very good reasons reiected by a Praefat. huic Synod Surius and b Notis in Concil Florent Binius and by all Catholiques And Crab though hee haue no caueat vppon this place yet that you may see he spake according to the letter of the greeke coppy and not his owne minde he calleth all the Councells betwixt the 2. of Nice and Florence Generall Councells all that the Church accounteth so and particularly of this Councell of Lateran he sayth Instituta generalis Concilij Lateranensis tempore Innocentij Papae tertij In the end of this section you make this notable conclusion So that vnlesse they will make two eight generall Councells this of Lateran could be none which out of your discourse may as iustly be inferred thus so that vnlesse they will make two or nine eight generall Councells that of Constantinople the fourth the fower of Lateran the two of Lions that of Vienne that of Pisa that of Florence or some one of these could be none Could be none is a false consequence could not be the eighth is true nor is that of Florence or Lateran numbred for the eighth by any Catholiques at this day but this is reckoned the twelfth that most commonly the sixteenth But that the number of eight which you so hunt heere may come in because nos numeri sumus he that first made this obiection which I belieue was not you shall by my consent be reckoned Sapientum octauus the eighth wise man which he shall be without a riuall there shall not be two of them especially if he that next aspires to it be a great one for then I trow he cannot interueene in the order of number betweene the eighth and the ninth as you haue taught vs for our learning C. Besides if it were a generall Councell how came it to passe that the Canons of it were neuer generally receiued as amongst vs in the Church and kingdome of England they were not and as without doubt they would haue beene had the Councell in those dayes beene accounted generall and the Decrees of it vnder that stile and title sent abroad into the world But with vs in England euer since that time and contrary to the 46. pretended Canon of it subsidies haue beene payd to the king inconsulto Pontifice and against the 41. Canon with vs Currit praescriptio though oftentimes ex bona fide ortum non habeat and yet againe contrary to the third Canon there with vs Clericorum bona qui de haeresi conuicti sunt they goe not to the vse of the Church but are alwayes brought into the kings Exchequer ANSWER The generality of this Councell you further goe about to disproue because the Canons thereof were not as you say generally receiued and this you proue because they were not receiued in England but that they were not receiued in England you doe not proue but by three instances which you doe not proue and if you had they had proued nothing For it is not properly the generall receiuing that makes a Councell to be generall but the generall calling thereof from all parts of the Christian world and such was this Otherwise no Councell could be stiled generall in the calling of it or while it was sitting or when it was concluded vntill it did appeare that all the world had receiued it which is a condition that neuer happened to any Councell because some or other heretiques against whom all generall Councells haue beene commonly called or perhaps all did refuse to receiue it So that by this your character of a generall Councell you haue plainly casheired all the generall Councells that euer were for euen the first fower which you seeme to magnifie and grant them the title of Generall were the Canons of them generally receiued It is manifest that they were not but were reiected by all those sorts of heretiques who were the occasion of