THE WINCHCOMB PAPERS REVIVED Wherein are contained some particulars concerning The Government of the Church Liturgy and Forms of Prayer Ordination and power of Ministers Administration of the Sacrament c. For the use of dissenting Brethren Veritati paci LONDON For John Barksdale Newstreet Five Bells 1675. S. Augustinus de fide oper c. 5. tom 4. p. 13. Cum sive per negligentiam praepositorum sive per aliquam excusabilem necessitatem sive per occultas obreptiones invenimus in ecclesia malos quos ecclesiasticâ disciplinâ corrigere aut coërcere non possumus tunc non ascendat in cor nostrum impia ac perniciosa praesumptio quâ existimemus nos ab his esse separandos ut peccatis eorum non inquinemur atque ita post nos trahere conemur veluti mundos sanctosque discipulos ab unitatis compage quasi à malorum consortio segregatos Veniant in mentem illae descripturis similitudines divina oracula vel certissima exempla quibus demonstratum pronuntiatum est malos in ecclesia permixtos bonis usque in finem seculi tempusque judicii futuros nihil bonis in unitate ac participatione Sacramentorum qui eorum factis non consenserint obfuturos The Review THat which at first gave life to the following Papers is the cause also why they are now revived namely the consideration of many evils done to the Church of England by the over-busie actings of some men that stile them selves Pastors of Gathered Churches who while they gather a few scatter many There is a short but sad complaint which I have lately seen written in the name of many thousands of this Country to this effect 1 That in severall great Parishes Market Towns and other Ministers are placed who own but a very few as Members of their Church and preach judgement to the rest and deprive them and their children of the Sacraments and other Ministerial Offices yet receive the profits and account them but as Heathens except they will enter into their private Covenant 2 That the said Preachers wander abroad with their Disciples after them invade other mens parishes distract the people and alienate their mindes from their lawful Pastors 3 That they spread under pretence of preaching Christ very dangerous opinions against parish-Churches and parish-Ministers and against that order and Goverment that ought to be restored to the Church of God 4 That the said preachers pretend to be the men by whose favour or disfavour other Ministers must stand or fall Whose Ordination they call Antichristian and have a designe to plant their illiterate followers whom they exercise to that end in their places These and the like grievances we hope Authority will in time redresse In the mean time it is the duty of Ministers that are left of the old stock to teach the truth and warn the people of these errors To which purpose the following Papers are not of no use In the Review whereof we see the substance of them may be referred chiefly to these Heads Of Church Government Publick Prayers The Ministry Communion And of these we shall note something in relation to the printed Papers 1. For Church-Government I cannot blame the Respondent who had lived under the form of Episcopacy to own that ancient way He denies it not to have been subject unto faults and errors by the miscarriage of persons employed whose faults if they shoud be charged likewise upon other Governments no form neither Civil nor Ecclesiastical would be of any long continuance I suppose it were a good Reformation to make some amendment in the Ecclesiastical Lawes as about the abilities required in persons to be Ordained c. and to bring up the practice of the Church to the Laws That Episcopacy is not to be cast off we the Ancients Ignatius and little reading in are verily perswaded by our other and by what we find in our own best Reformed Divines No more need here be named but Zanchy from beyond sea and Bishop Davenant at home whose words you have in the Testimonies Bishop Davenant a man worthily much esteemed by all parties saith that among many Presbyters that administer the Word and Sacraments in some one City there was one by the Apostles themselves set over the rest and indowed with a certain singular dignity and power And it is manifest these Bishops thus establisht by the Apostles authority had their successions in the same Cities by a continual order And Zanchy saith That in the Protestant Churches are not wanting Bishops and Archbishops indeed and in effect But the good Greek names being changed into bad Latin they call them Superintendents and general Superintendents And where these names are not yet there are wont to be some prime men who have almost all the Authority And why should we contend about names when we agree about the thing I will onely adde upon this first Head what I hear is not displeasing to the Presbyterians I wish it may not be to the Independents whose chief Argument from Mat. 18. for the power of the Congregation is answered by considering that matters seem to be referred to the people because they passed at their assemblies though under censure of Bishops and Presbyters See page 112. Namely the judgment of that most Reverend and learned Primate Dr. Vsher now with God who in four Articles lately printed hath reduced Episcopacy to the form of Synodical Government The summe is this 1 That in every parish the Rector with the Church-wardens note the scandalous and admonish them 2. That they present the obstinate to the monthly rural Synod consisting of the Rectors of that part assembled under the Suffragan there to be censured 3. That the Acts of the monthly Synods be revised once or twice a year by the Diocesan Synod consisting of all the suffragans and some choice Rectors assembled under the Bishop 4. That further Appeal may be made in case of grievances to the Provincial Synods c. This is a way of conjoyning Episcopal government and Presbyterial into one which might happily content all sober Christians so as Church-affairs should be managed to borrow words from the royal pen neither with tyranny impurity nor popularity neither Bishops ejected nor Presbyters despised nor people oppressed Whom God hath joyned together let no man put asunder So much of the first Head 2. For Publick prayers I see no cause to dislike that which is among the following testimonies cited out of Mr. Calvin's Epistle to the Lord Protector wherein he saith I very much approve a certain form of prayers from which it may not be lawful for the Pastors in their function to depart for these reasons that help may be given to the unskilfulnesse of some that the consent of all the Churches may appear that the levity and uncertainty of some men alwaies â—ffecting novelties may be regulated and restrained Yet neither doth Calvin here nor do any of us deny a grave modest
you conceive by the Church B. I am very inclinable to Saint Chrysostome's interpretation who by the Church understandands the Elders and Rulers of the Church H. The word Church is no where so taken in all the Scripture and therefore it cannot be so taken here shew us any place B. It doth not follow for some word may possibly signify that in one place which it signifies no where else and again there may be other places though I cannot readily shew them I will consider of it H. No I doe assure you t is never so used and therefore I hope you will yeeld to the Word that we may go on with one consent in the work of God B. God grant it if it be the Work of God but you have not cleered it yet I cannot yield to your sense for this Reason That sense of Scripture concerning Church-government which was never received by the Doctors of the Antient Church is not the true sense of Scripture But your sense of the place was never received c. H. Still still he declines Scripture and would lead us to human Ordinances B. As for human Ordinances I can embrace them so far as they are not opposite to Scripture but now we are upon the Interpretation of Scripture I must profess I have been ever bred in the Church that requires all her Ministers to receive the Scripture as interpreted by the Antient Fathers and to propose nothing to the people contrary to what was derived out of the Scripture by them I am not ashamed of my Mother the Church of England nor by Gods grace ever shall I. And I doe heartily warn all that hear me to take heed as they tender their Soules of departing rashly from the Communion of of the said Church W. I thought where we should have you B. You have me where I have ever been and where I mean to abide till I am convinced I am not unwilling to learn of any one And pray Mr. W. tell me whether you hold not a Synod of chosen men gathered out of your Churches to have authority over them all W. No authority at all such a Synod may be of use for advice and counsell not for goverment or for the exercise of any jurisdiction B. Then as I conceive your modell is very imperfect and me thinks your Ministers in their severall Congregations look like so many little Popes For the Pope is the Great Independent and will allow of no Appeal from him no more will you H. Pray Mr. B. quiet the People B. I beseech you good people I beseech you attend with silence and patience Tr. Where presently followes Execution there can be no appeal But after the sentence of the Congregation presently followes execution If he hear not the Church let him c. Therefore from the sentence of the Congregation can be no appeal B. Well argued I repeat Where presently c. I answer first to the major or first proposition There may be an appeal after execution of the sentence of the Congregation In your own way may not the wronged person appeal from you to your selves In the Presbyterian you know there lyes an appeal to the Classis but that I take not on me to maintain I know no power to excommunicate but Episcopall Tr. Then it seems by you the Bishop is the Church and the sole judge of the Congregations B. Not so neither Hear my Answer I pray and do not you ignorant fellowes laugh at that you do not understand The Bishop is considered either Sole or alone or as he sits in Cathedra crowned with Presbyters In this later sense I humbly conceive the Bishop is or ought to be Governour of the Congregations within his Diocese And such Bishops we can shew innumerable in the ancient Records of the Catholique Church I am very sorry these Gentlemen are so ill read in good Books of our own English Divines as to deny a truth shining so bright upon them Mr. Tr. have you not seen the learned Thorndike of the primitive Government c Tr. We cleave to the Scripture and call you to the foresaid text Can you shew one place where Church is taken for the Bishop and his Presbyters B. What if I cannot The Authority of the antient Fathers is sufficient for the present to commend my interpretation to such as reverence Antiquity But because I would gladly please you I will offer another sense of the words in question which will come neer to you but is not fully yours That is after the first admonition by one and the second before two or three it is the mind of Christ that a greater number should be made acquainted with the business tell it to the Many for the shaming of the offendor as the Apostle somewhere speaks the words may the more probably be taken in this sense because as yet the Disciples were not setled under a Church-government and so there remaining no more to be done after this shaming of the offendor before a good number of Fellow-Christians i. e. the Church he was to be henceforth till his amendment accounted as a heathen and might be prosecuted for any offence before the heathen Tribunalls Which prosecution was not lawfull against those that would hear the Church See 1 Cor. 6. But this will do you no pleasure unless that which followes in the next verse belong unto the Congregation too but that cannot be if Christ spake the words to his Apostles and gave the Keys and Power of Binding and Loosing to them and their successors as I believe he did Consider of it See the learned Dr. Hammond of binding and loosing To. Give me leave to add somewhat here in confirmation of what was last said Scripture you know gives light to Scripture Christ elswhere saith to Peter that he would give the Keys to him Matth. 16. 19. And John 20. 21 21 23. he speaketh to his Disciples and thus enstateth them in that power Then said Jesus to them again Peace be unto you as my Father hath sent me even so send I you And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them Receive yee the holy Ghost whosoever sins yee remit they are remitted unto them and whosoever sins ye retain they are retained these are the solemn words of Ordination W. The words are spoken to Peter and to the Disciples as they were Christian professors and so they do belong to our people not as they were appointed by Christ to be Governours of his Church To. The words signify a power committed to them which they used as Governours 't is plain and which they left to the Bishops their Successours Tr. The Apostles had no successors being gifted with a miraculous power B. The Apostles are to be considered in two respects either as planters of the Churches and to that purpose endued with a miraculous power to make way for and to give confirmation to the Gospel or else as Governours of the Churches
Scripture shew us any such office bring forth your proofe of it B. 'T is my part to answer your proofs Now you put on the Respondent the part of an Opponent Let them that have been bred in the Schools judge whether you do like a fair Disputant H. Our dispute is not an University Dispute but for the clearing of the truth to some Godly People B. Do you think the University Disputations which are the best in the world are not for the clearing of the Truth But what saith Mr. Tr. shall I propose my Argument to prove Diocesan Bishops by the Scripture Tr. You have liberty to propose your Argument and shew in what part of Scripture you can find the Office of any Diocesan Bishop B. I allege principally the Epistles of S. Paul to Timothy and Titus and particularly Tit. 1. 5. For this cause left I thee in Creet that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting and ordaine Elders in every City as I have appointed thee Out of which Text I will prove that Titus was a Bishop and Creet his Diocese and therefore here we have found the Diocesian Bishop But before I proceed let me aske you Gentlemen do you not put me upon this to ensnare me Do you mean no harm to me Tr. No I assure you wherefore in Gods Name speak freely B. I humbly thank you but first let me openly declare before all this Assembly that I have no mind to oppose any act of State nor will I meddle at all with the Lands and Lordships of Bishops only I plead for the Order and Function of Bishops I plead for the primitive Apostolicall Bishop and no other And that this Text is for me thus I prove He that hath a power to ordaine Elders and set things in order in the Church is a Bishop But Titus hath a power to ordaine Elders and to set things in order in a Church Therefore Titus is a Bishop H. But you must prove him to be a Diocesan Bishop B. So I do Creet was his Diocese the whole Iland was committed to his Goverment Diocese my friends is a Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to order and administer the affaires of Gods House signifying the territory or circuit of a Bishop So Creet may be well called the Diocese of Bishop Titus having under his inspection as t is plaine the Elders of the Cities there W. The Cities were not under Titus his Goverment he was not a Ruler of the Iland B. He was Ruler of all the Christians I mean onely them through all the Cities and Country Tr. But Titus was an Evangelist Therefore no Bishop B. I deny the Consequence He was an Evangelist while he went about Preaching and Planting the Gospell And he was the Bishop of Creet when he was fixed there by Paul to Ordaine Elders and put in order the things that were wanting H. We find Titus in other places beside Creet and Bishops of those times were not non-residents Therefore he was not Bishop of Creet B. Bishops may lawfully be and were antiently non-resident for some time to wit while they attend the business of Religion abroad and procured the greater good of the Church In which time of their absence their places are supplyed at home by their Deputies Tr. But Sir I pray consider Titus was an extraordinary Governor and therefore no Diocesan Bishop And you dispute fallaciously unless you put in the word Ordinary B. I say he was a Diocesan Bishop or if you will rather an Archbishop For I conceive the Elders of every City to have been Bishops and Overseers of severall Ministers and Congregations therefore he was an ordinary Governour Thus I argue He that ordaines Elders and orders the things in the Churches is an Ordinary But Titus ordaines Elders and orders things in the Churches Therefore Titus is an Ordinary Tr. But I mean he was called to that office in an extraordinary manner B. No neither He was called in the same manner as Timothy and others by Imposition of the Presbytery Therefore He was called in an Ordinary manner Col. A. Timothy was called saith Paul in another place by the laying on of his hands B. Noble Sir you say very true and the places are easily reconciled thus Divers Elders laid hands on Timothy among whom S. Paul probably was chief H. And was Paul too a Diocesan Bishop B. The Apostles common Diocese was the whole world which by agreement they divided among them and S. Paul was especially the Apostle of the Gentiles But in the Apostles I grant some things are extraordinary Tr. Pray make it out cleerely that Titus his case is not extraordinary otherwise you dispute fallaciously B. Truth needs no sophistry Thus I make it out The office that is to continue in the Church and to be succeeded in through following ages is no extraordinary office But this office of Titus is such Therefore c. H. What is it to continue to the worlds end B. Yes to the worlds end For it is Christs Promise I am with you alway even to the end of the world Mat. ult ult What say you to my argument Ordination and Jurisdiction are Offices or Powers needfull to the Church in all Ages This Office of Power or Titus was Ordination and Jurisdiction Therefore this Office of Titus is needfull to the Church in all Ages and therefore no extraordinary Office And my Brethren I would have you to know we are able to shew out of the best Records and Monuments of the Antient Church that there was a succession to the Apostolicall Bishops in these parts of their Office And the Catalogues of succeeding Bishops in severall Apostolicall Sees are yet extant And the Fathers and Councills and Ecclesiasticall Histories come in here with undeniable evidence that Diocesan Bishops are successors of the Apostles in the Government of Churches H. See godly Brethren the subtilty of this man He will not contain himself within the Holy Scripture but tells us of Fathers and Ecclesiasticall Stories and human Authorities B. Who succeeded in the government of Churches after the Apostles we must learn out of the writings of the next Ages And I tell you not only Fathers and Church-story but all other good learning is requisite in a compleat Divine Mark this you bold unlearned new-speakers and expounders of Scripture Mark it and remember it well And for the question of Church-government especially it is impossible to find a better way to understand the Scripture than by the practice of the primitive times of the Christian Church H. Expound Scripture by the practice of the primitive Church Do ye heare him brethren as if Scripture needed the help of the Church We thought we should finde him enclining to Popery B. I detest all Popery charge me not so ignorantly Upon my life I will make it good by the judgment of the most learned and sound Protestants that the practice of the primitive Church is a great light to
Scripture But this requires the searching of Books which at your lesure I should be glad to shew you W. Protestants Whom do you mean by Protestants B. I mean those that protest against the Errors Innovations of the Roman Church in latter times and endeavour to reform Religion according to the Scripture and the primitive pattern H. You see he takes in the practice of the Primitive Church again B. I do and must and thus I argue That Government which in the primitive Ages took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government But the Government of Diocesan Bishops took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles Therefore the Government of the Diocesan Bishops is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government Now let me see who will answer me W. Antichrist Antichrist was working betimes B. Whether it be Antichristianism to establish or to over throw the Function of Bishops let all considering men judge by the Premises W. But why do you take in any thing else with Scripture as if that alone were not sufficient for us H. Yea Scripture Scripture we are contented with Scripture B. Give me leave to explain my self to All and I entreat you Harken The Scriptures perfection I do thankfully acknowledge but the things conteined in the Scripture are some of them conteined in it plainly and expresly to be apprehended by every Reader other things are conteined there implicitely virtually and so as there is need of many helps to make our deductions thence And for the Scripture-government I know no better light to shew it than the practice of the Antient Church I argue thus They that have commended to us the very Books of Scripture are fittest to give us the sense of them especially in point of Government But the Antient Church hath commended to us the very books of Scripture Therefore the Antient Church is fittest to give us the sense c. And I pray Mr. W. how will you prove that the Scripture is the Word of God W. I know it by the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in me B. But how will you convince another that will not believe your Spirit that the Scripture is divine Here you may make very good use of the Testimony of the next Ages that received it from the Apostles and gave it down to their Followers W. and H. Popery to depend upon the Testimony of the Church To. Since you are many at once upon one which is not fair give me leave to put in sometimes in behalf and for the case of the Respondent We say we depend upon the testimony of the Antient Church not of the now Roman Church The Roman Church is a very corrupt Church the Primitive times were far more pure W. What do you talk of Purity after the Apostles times Did not many Heresies creep in To. By this Argument you will condemn the Apostles times also for even then were not wanting Schismes and Heresies B. Will you leave this as it is and proceed to some farther Argument and come close to the business of the Sacrament I say it is lawfull for me to Minister the Sacrament in the Congregation at Sudeley H. Thus I proceed to shew that your calling is null therefore you cannot Minister Ministers that Prophane the holy things of the Lord their calling is null But many Parish Ministers prophane the holy things of the Lord Therefore their Calling is null B. You should say All Parish Ministers for you hold it is not lawful to Minister in any mixt Congregation and such you say are all Parish Churches But say neither All nor Many but apply the minor to me whom you have publikely in your Sermons condemned before you used the Christian wayes of more private Admonition and then I deny both your premises both Major and Minor both are false and Scandalous Neither doth the prophaning of Holy things null the Ministers calling nor have I prophaned the Holy things in the said Ministery H. First then I prove the major fully you that have Bibles Brethren pray turn to the places Ezek. 22. 26. 44. 13. B. What prove you thence H. That prophaning the Holy things nulls the Priesthood for they shall be no Priests unto me saith the Lord. B. I answer to the Text by distinguishing between the Order of a Priest and the Office of a Priest They shall be no Priests unto me here is a suspension from the Office and work of the Priests no nulling of the Priesthood it self W. Then it seems by you They were Priests and no Priests God saith They shall not you say they shall remain Priests To. He hath shewed you how They were Priests and no Priests in divers respects They were still of the Order and race of Priests they were not to officiate any more in the Priestly office God would not accept them he saith They shall be no Priests unto me Yet who knoweth but upon their repentance God might readmit them not by a new Consecration but by Absolution And so Ministers when they are restored after suspension are not new Ordained but only the Censures taken off Tr. Well you grant at last a removall and suspension from the office though the calling be not nulled And so you will confess you deserve to be removed from Officiating if you prophane the Holy Things of the Lord. B. I will grant that a Minister if he be so prophane ought not to officiate but I think the proceedings against a Minister must be tender and wary Receive not an accusation against an Elder without two or three witnesses Conviction must go before Censure and upon Repentance restauration followes And I refuse not to be so dealt with Tr. Proceed therefore and prove your minor that he doth prophane the holy things of the Lord. H. They that administer the Sacrament promiscuously to All do prophane But you so administer Therefore c. B. Your minor's false and Scandalous The Congregation of my hearers I will confess is mixt not so the Company of my Communicants Understand what my practice is After divers preparations when the Sacrament is to be administred I proclame All that are not prepared Depart You that are prepared Stay These after the departure of the rest I look upon as prepared in some measure and so I go on H. If you do administer the Sacrament to the unregenerate Tr. No no say thus to the ignorant and Prophane H. You Minister the Holy Sacrament to the ignorant and prophane B. You do well to prompt one another Prove it Or if you please I answer persons may be ignorant and prophane either in the eye of God that searcheth the secrets of the heart or in the eye of the Church that looks upon the outward appearance In the former sense some of us may be such we are not so in the latter Tr. Pray Mr. B. let me ask you Do you know every one that you Minister the Sacrament to B. I will give you
and when the Communion of belief is interrupted by misperswasion on one side and too much confidence and want of Charity on the other the erring party hath humane infirmity to excuse him but the uncharitable nothing at all This therefore is the best and surest way because we are all apt to be deceived to be sincere in our disquisitions modest in our determinations charitable in our censures and apt to communicate in things of evident truth and confessed holiness Since all Christians of any publick confession and Government that is all particular and national Churches agree in the matter of prayers and the great object God in the mystery of the Trinity if the Church of Rome would make her Addresses to God only through Jesus Christ our Lord and leave the Saints in the Calendar without drawing them into her Offices which they might do without any prejudice to the sutes they ask unless Christ's intercession without their conjuncture were imperfect that we might all once pray together we might hope for the blessings of Peace and Charity to be upon us all Hieronymus Zanchius in Confess Cap. 24. 19. De Ecclesia NOn enim ab Ecclesia Romana simpliciter in omnibus defecimus sed in illis duntaxat rebus in quibus ipsa defecit ab Apostolica atque adeo à seipsa veteri pura Ecclesia neque alio discessimus animo quà m ut si correcta ad priorem Ecclesiae formam redeat nos quoque ad illam revertamur communionem cum illa in suis porrâ— coetibus habeamus Quod ut tandem fiat toto animo Dominum Jesum precamur Quid enim pâ—o cuique optatius quam ut ubi per Baptismum renati sumus ibi etiam in finem usque vivamus modo in Domino Ego H. Z. cum tota mea familia testatum hoc volo toti Ecclesiae Christi in omnem aeternitatem Huic pii viri sententiae libenter subscribit C. B. Idem in observat ad Cap. 5. ATtque haec de patrum autoritate à quibus nisi manifestissimis rationibus cogar me pro mea tenera conscientia vel in dogmatibus vel etiam in scripturarum interpretationibus praesertim ubi plerique omnes consentiunt deflectere non audere toti Ecclesiae Christi ingenuè fateor Et postea Hoc ego ingenuè denuò profiteor talem esse meam conscientiam ut à veterum patrum sive dogmatibus sive scripturarum interpretationibus non facile nisi vel manifestis sacrarum literarum testimoniis vel necessariis consequentiis apertisque demonstrationibus convictus atque coactus discedere queam Sic exim acquiescit mea conscientia in hac ment is quiete cupio etiam mori Idem ad Cap. 25. QUid quòd in Ecclesiis etiam Protestantium non desunt reipsa Episcopi Archiepiscopi quos mutatis bonis Graecis nominibus in malè Latina vocant superintendentes generales superintendentes Sed ubi etiam neque illa vetera bona Graeca neque haec nova malè Latina nomina obtinent ibi tamen solent esse aliquot primarii penes quos fere tota est autoritas De nominibus ergo fuerit controversia verùm cum de rebus convenit quid de nominibus altercamur Idem in fine PRecor omnes Christianos per Dominum Jesum ut positis vanis privatorum hominum somniis positis etiam propriis carnis affectibus odiis inimicitiis amplexi verò certum ac salutarem veteris Ecclesiae doctrinam Christianamque dilectionem coeamus omnes in unam fidem sanctamque amicitiam sicut nobis quoque omnibus unus est Deus unus Mediator unum Baptisma una spes vocationis nostrae ad gloriam nominis Dei Ecclesiae aedificationem salutemque animorum nostrorum Citius enim quam putamus sistemur ante tribunal Christi ut referat unusquisque prout se gessit in corpore in hac vita quando post hanc vitam nulla spes veniae nullus resipiscentiae locus est Hooker in his Preface Sect. 4. A Very strange thing sure it were that such a Discipline as ye speak of should be taught by Christ and his Apostles in the word of God and no Church ever have found it out nor received it till this present time contrariwise the Government against which ye bend your selves be observed every where throughout all generations and ages of the Christian world no Church ever perceiving the word of God to be against it We require you to find out but one Church upon the face of the whole earth that hath been ordered by your Discipline or hath not been orderd by ours that is to say by Episcopal regiment sithence the time that the blessed Apostles were here conversant The same Sect. 6. AS for the Orders which are established sith equity and reason the Law of Nature God and man do all favour that which is in being till orderly judgement of decision be given against it it is but justice to exact of you and perverseness in you it should be to deny thereunto your willing obedience Not that I judge it a thing allowable for men to observe those Laws which in their hearts they are stedfastly perswaded to be against the Law of God but your perswasion in this case ye are all bound for the time to suspend and in otherwise doing ye offend against God by troubling his Church without any just or necessary cause The same Sect. 8. AGain it may justly be feared whether our English Nobility when the matter came in tryal would contentedly suffer themselves to be alwaies at the call and to stand to the sentence of a number of mean persons assisted with the presence of their poor teacher a man as sometimes it hapneth though better able to speak yet little or no whit apter to judge than the rest From whom be their dealings never so absurd unless it be by way of complaint to a Synod no appeal may be made unto any one of higher power in as much as the order of your Discipline admitteth no standing inequality of Courts no Spiritual Judge to have any ordinary Superior on earth but as many Supremacies as there are Parishes and several Congregations Neither is it altogether without cause that so many do fear the overthrow of all learning as a threatned sequel of this your intended Discipline For if the worlds preservation depend upon the multitude of the wise and of that sort the number hereafter be not likely to wax over great when that wherewith the Son of Syrach professeth himself at the heart grieved men of understanding are already so little set by how should their minds whom the love of so precious a Jewel filleth with secret jealousy even in regard of the least things which may any way hinder the flourishing estate thereof choose but misdoubt lest this Discipline which alwaies you match with Divine Doctrine as her natural and true Sister be found unto all kinds of knowledge a
Mr. Owen's duty of Pastors and people distinguished p. 46 47. Inprimis displicet mihi illa quam tuentur libertas prophetandi certissima pernicies religionis nisi cert is finibus acriter coerceatur Casaub epist 320. The same Collector pag. 683 684. WE are commanded not to eat with Obj. a Brother if he be so and so Ans It signifieth to have familiar civill society with them in inviting them or feasting them But if one may not have familiar civil conversation with such much less may he eat with them at the Sacrament It follows not for in withdrawing our selves from them we punish them and shew our dislike of them but in withdrawing our selves from the Sacrament because of them we punish our selves Mr. Downame on 1 Cor. 11. 28. saith None ought to refrain coming to the Lords Table because they see scandalous sinners unworthy guests admitted For 1. The Apostle here doth not enjoyn us to examin others but our selves 2. Because the Apostles yea even Christ himself did joyn with those Assemblies in the service of God and particularly in the use of the Sacraments which were full of corruptions both in respect of doctrin and manners viz. This Church of Corinth it self 3. Because one mans sin cannot defile another nor make the seals of the Covenant uneffectuall to him who cometh in faith and repentance and even hateth that sin which he seeth committed especially when he hath no power committed unto him by God and the Church of repelling the wicked from this holy Communion 4. Because the punishment denounced against unworthy Receivers is appropriated to them who thus offend and reacheth not to the innocent because they are in their company Zanchy saith Non aut ob talem abusum Ecolesia de sinit esse Ecclesia Christi aut pii impiorum in sacris Communione possunt contaminari Beza de Presbyt p. 28. Etiamsi suis oculis Minister quenpiam viderit aliquid agentem quod coenae exclusionem mereatur jure tamen nec debeat nec possit nisi vocatum convictum legitimè denique secundum constitutum in Ecclesia ordinem damnatum à mensa Domini cum auctoritate prohibere Object We are commanded to separate our selves from the wicked and to come out from amongst thom 2 Cor. 6. 17. Ans We must indeed come out from amongst those that do serve false Gods and separate our selves from the familiar society of wicked persons but other separation was never practised by any Prophet or Apostle or ever meant Immediatly there it follows Touch not the-unclean thing that is Do not joyn with others in their pollutions Ephes 5. 6 7 11. p. 682. This Sacrament saith Mr. Burroughs on Hos 5. 3. is not defiled to the right receivers of it meerly because wicked men are present there but because the Congregation neglects their duty of casting out the wicked from thence whence they discover themselves Particular persons and Communicants come to be defiled in this if they neglect the duty that belongs to them as Christians Matth. 18. 15 16. If thou hast done thy duty to all scandalous persons in the Congregation then the sin be upon the Church thou maist receive the Sacrament with comfort though wicked men be admitted there p. 481. Dr. Ames saith Falsum est iniernas virtutes à nobis requiri ut aliquis sit in Ecclesia quoad visibilem ejus statum Bellarm enerv Tom. 2. l. 2. c. 1. s 5. The Apostles at the first gathering of the Church of the new Testament never required any more than the profession of the faith of Christ in fundamentals and that they were willing for the time to come to walk in Gospell rules John Baptist received Publicans and sinners Soldiers Scribes Pharisees when they confessed their sins and desired to be admitted into the faith of him whom John preached See Act. 2. 41 47. Vide Calvin ad Matt. 3. Many a one that may have real grace yet out of bashfulness and because he hath but weak parts may not be able to evidence it to others and others who have greater gifts may carry it away when they are not inwardly wrought upon I suppose therefore those are to be received into Church-Communion which profess the faith of Christ and subject to the rules of the Gospell if they be free from damnable errors and scandalous conversation Mr. Martial on Rom. 12. 4 5. I am verily perswaded that were the union and Communion of the people of God rightly known there is no Saint in any part of the world but where ever he comes might demand upon the profession of his faith and his voluntary subjection to the Gospell his right in the Ordinances hear the Word with them pray with them receive the Sacraments with them Mr. Baxter in the Dedicatory of his Rest YOu know I never conformed to the use of mystical Symbolical Rites my self but only to the determination of Circumstantials necessary in genere and yet I ever loved a godly peaceable Conformist better than a turbulent Non-conformist I yet differ from many in severall Doctrins of greater moment than Baptism c. And yet if I should zealously press my judgment on others and seek to make a party for it and disturb the peace of the Church and separate from my Brethren I should fear lest I should prove a firebrand in hell for being a firebrand in the Church Paulo post Make conscience of the great duty of reproving and exhorting those about you Make not your souls guilty of the oaths ignorance and unworthiness of others by your silence Admonish them lovingly and modestly but be sure you do it and that seriously This is the first step in Discipline Expect not that your Minister should put any from the Sacrament whom you have not thus admonished once and again Punish not before due process Dr. Ham. Pract. Catech. l. 6. s 3. Of preparation for the Sacrament THat every man is infinitely concernd to have his soul always possest with every part of that preparation That he careless oscitancy fatal stupidity of the world in never so much as considering whether they have any of them or no is a most prodigious thing That the time of preparing our selves for the Sacrament which ought to be frequent but how frequent is not defined in Scripture but left to the judgment of the Church is a very fit time for that self examination That till that be done and all and each of those graces Repentance faith c. found sincere in our hearts we ought not to come to that holy Sacrament which yet will not excuse any for not coming because he is not prepar'd but rather aggravate the sin upon him that rather than thus fit himself he will part with so great a treasure The same Authour Of Idolatry s 70. FOr the sign of the Cross used by our Church in Baptism which hath been by some cryed down under the title of Idolatry two things it will not be amiss
from all corruptions in doctrine Add the great benefit that accrews to the Congregation in having discreet well-formed prayers and so not subject to the temerity and impertinences of the sudden effusions and the same still in constant use and so not strange or new to them but such as they may with understanding go along with the Minister and by the help of their Memory the most ignorant may carry them away for his private use Pract. Catech. lib. 3. sect 2. Melancthon Calvino 1543. Maii. 11. SCio Deum inter fatales Imperiorum tumultus Ecclesiam suam servare mirabiliter Non igitur frangamur animis sed dum possumus sonemus ut conversus Latro in cruce doctrinam de Filio Dei deque arcana sapientia quae est Ecclesiae propria de magnitudine humanae infirmitatis de poenitentia fiducia promissae misericordiae propter filium de vera invocatione veris Ecclesiae virtutibus de mysteriis non polluendis de Ecclesiae politia non illa quam fingunt Pontifices sed qualis fuit Prophetarum Apostolorum denique de vita aeterna Ad harum maximarum rerum doctrinam ornandam transfer as velim eloquentiom tuam quae confirmare nostros terrere adversarios sanabiles juvare poterit Fortassis nostra Germania paulo post à Turcis vastabitur quod si fiet eo magis vobis alibi in locis tutioribus studia literarum excitanda erunt pugnandum vehementius ut in reliqua Europa Evangelii lucem accendatis retineatis Quod ad quaestionem de praedestinatione habebam amicum Tubingae doctum hominem Franciscum Stadianum qui dicere solebat se utrumque probare evenire omnia ut divina providentia decrevit tamen esse contingentia sed se haec conciliare non posse Ego cum hypothesin hanc teneam Deum non esse causam peccati nec velle peccatum postea contingentiam in hac nostra infirmitate judicii admitto ut sciant rudes Davidem sua voluntate ultro ruere eundem sentio cum haberet Spiritum Sanctum potuisse eum retinere in ea lucta aliquem esse voluntatis actionem Haec etiamsi subtilius disputari possunt tamen ad regendas mentes hoc modo proposit◠accommodata videntur Accusemus ipsi nostram voluntatem cum labimur non quaeramus in Dei consilio causam contra eam nos erigamus sciamus Deum velle opitulari adesse luctantibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inquit Basilius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Excitetur ergo cura in nobis laudetur Dei immensa bonit as quum promisit auxilium praestat Haec non scribo ut tibi tradam quasi dictata homini eruditissimo ac peritissimo exercitiorum pietatis Et quidem scio haec cum tuis congruere sed sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad usum accommodata Haec Bonnae scripsi apud D. Bucerum cum eo accersitus est ut Ecclesias in Diocesi Coloniensi emendaret Haec consilia Deo piis votis commendes Philippus Melancthon Of the power of the Congregation LEt not any man think now that the Apostle communicateth this power with the Congregation of the Church of Corinth when he writeth to them 1 Cor. 5. 4 5. being assembled with his spirit to deliver the incestuous person to Satan For it is plain that the sentence is given by the Apostle vers 3. where he writeth For I verily as absent in body but present in spirit have judged already as though I were present concerning him that hath so done this deed And to cause this proceeding to be the better digested he hath vouched his power in the end of the chapter afore verse 18. Now some are puffed up as though I would not come unto you but I will come unto you shortly if the Lord will and will know not the speech of them that are puffed up but the power What will you shall I come unto you with a rod or with the spirit of meekness Which power otherwhiles he setteth before them in case of their disobedience And therefore it must be acknowledged that he writeth to them to see his sentence published ratified and executed which the Presbyters there had either neglected to do or perhaps were not able to bring the people under the Discipline of Christ's Kingdom which must needs oblige the Apostle to interpose And this without doubt is the reason why the Apostle writeth in these terms 1 Cor. 5. 12. For what have I to do to judge those that are without do not ye judge those that are within speaking to the Church in general though the sentence passed by Bishop and Presbyters because matters were censured in the Congregation and executed by the people And thus the practice of that time giveth a reason without straining why our Lord seemeth to refer these matters to the Congregation when he saith Tell it to the Church because they passed at their Assemblies though under Censure of Bishop and Presbyters And great reason there is why this regard should be had by the Apostle and by the Church afterwards to the People because the Church being a meer spiritual Commonwealth and not indued with temporal strength so much as to execute those sentences which the power of the Keys given by Christ obligeth it to inflict always setting wide that power of working miracles which was in the Apostle upon which some think he reflecteth in some passages of those Epistles requisite it was then the Congregation should be satisfied of the course of those proceedings which must come into execution and effect by their voluntary submission to the will of God and the office of his Ministers And as the matter is now that things of this nature proceed not upon mens private Consciences and Judgments in particulars but upon general rules of Common right requisite it is that the Common-wealth have satisfaction of those Laws according to which the Church now must proceed in their censures it being acknowledged that they cannot proceed with effect but by vertue of those Laws that are put in force by the secular Arm. Mr. Thorndike of Prim. Government p. 144. Reader Take for a Conclusion of all at this time that too pertinent Relation which you may read more at large in Mr. Hookers preface collected out of Guy de bres Of the Errour of the Anabaptists THey so much affected to cross the ordinary custome in every thing that when other mens use was to put on better attire they would be sure to shew themselves openly abroad in worse the ordinary names of the days in the week they thought it a kind of prophaness to use and therefore accustomed themselves to make no other distinction than by numbers The first second third day-They boldly avouched that themselves only had the truth and that since the Apostles lived the same was never before in all points sincerely taught Other disputation against their opinions
discreet and humble use of Ministers gifts even in publick the better to fit excite their own and the peoples affections to the present occasions But that any mens private single Abilities should quite justle out the publick forms of prayer composed by the joynt Abilities and gifts of Godly learned Governours of the Church this is that we cannot allow of Neither do we conceive the spirit of prayer to consist so much in utterance of words which is but a gift of edification as in stirring up the Graces of faith and humility and other gifts of sanctification wherein the very life and soul of prayer consisteth And certianly he that saith that short comprehensive prayer justly called The Lords prayer because he framed it for his Disciples with an understanding devout and faithfull heart prayes very spiritually very acceptably and powerfully Concerning this prayer I censure it as too yieldingly spoken which is said in the first Letter as if the words might be laid aside and omitted the sense being kept When as in my opinion it is an honour to our Saviour and a good mark of his humble and faithful followers to keep not the sense onely but the very form of words which he hath commended Nor can I see any reason why so many in these times do omit the form as if that omission were now become a distinctive character whereby the most godly preachers and most Reformed Christians might be known But enough of this 3. As to the Ordination and power of Ministers that Text Tit. 1. 5. insisted on in the Dispute adde Acts 14. 23. plainly shews the Apostolical practice of Ordaining Elders in every Church and in succeeding Ages a succession of Christs Ministers was preserved by the like Ordination as Ecclesiastical Records do abundantly witness That Churches parochial should be filled with those that set up a new or no form of worship and minister holy things before they have received holy Orders this I think was never heard of in our land before these our times and what the consequence will be we have great cause to fear even the overthrow of all Religion and the introducing of Atheism and prophaness among our people Those words in the late Mournfull Complaint presented to some Parliament men are to the purpose You have placed in many of our Churches and given the Tithes and other profits belonging to the cure of souls to men that refuse to take any such charge upon them and who are so far from having the affections or performing the duties of faithful Pastors to us that they do professedly disown any such relation and consequently all the duties thereunto belonging Thence they neither Baptise nor Catechise our children nor do they administer the Lords Supper in our Congregations our sick and feeble persons they visite not nor own it as a duty incumbent on them to take care for our souls These Ministers I conceive being not Ordained believe their ministerial power to reach onely to those select persons that are in Covenant with them and submit to their Church-way as if the said power were received from the persons that consent thereunto Thus have we Ministers that are Preachers to thousands and Ministers as themselves say to some few gathered out of the multitude the rest of the multitude in the mean time remaining according to their opinion almost in the quality of meer Heathens and Infidels and if they be not such this seemeth a way â—o make them so For being not owned as Brethren by the gathered Church and having good reasons not to come into their communion they are in many places destitute of divine ordinances without publick Prayers Sermons Sacraments and in a ready way to loose Religion altogether But why do they not come into the Preachers placed among them by Authority Because they believe those Preachers however settled by the civil power have not received the sacred Office by lawful Ordination For we may easily distinguish between the Office and the place wherein the Office is exercised Preachers and Ministers are placed and confirmed in their places by the Magistrate or Civil power but they receive their ministerial Office or spiritual function by lawful Ordination and laying on of the hands of the Presbytery This is called the Power of Order derived not from the Magistrate or Prince not from the people they cannâ—t give what they have not but from Bishops and Presbyters who also have received it from their Predecessors The Ministers Servants Officers and Embassadors of Christ must have their Authority and Commission from Christ either immediately as the Apostles had or mediately by the hands of Elder Ministers as the lawful Ministers of our time have nor may any take this honour unto himself but he that is thus called of God The people indeed may be said to Call that is to invite and intreate Ministers to come unto them but their Calling or Function is from God The Lord of the harvest sends in the laborers the great Shepheard setteth Pastors over his flock the Master of the Family appointeth Stewards for his houshould to dispence unto them the Mysteries of God 4. For the administration of the holy Sacrament that such as have not received the power before mentioned by lawful Ordination do not administer the Sacrament to all we will not blame them because we conceive they have not power of ministring to any one but that they condemn the lawful Ministers for ministring unto the people of their Parishes the sacred things which cannot rightly be denied them this we may complain of In the above cited Mournful Complaint among many other sad passages we finde these words You permit us not to celebrate the memory of our dying Saviour in the Sacrament of his lost Supper and so deprive our souls of that heavenly food that our dear Lord hath with so much cost provided for us We would after many sad violations renew our Covenant with Christ and engage our souls more firmly to him but you will not permit us You complain of the loosenesse of our spirits whilest you withhold the bonds that should knit us faster unto Christ you complain of our weaknesse in resisting corruptions whilest you withhold the food whereby we should be strengthened you complain of seism strife and division whilest by you the sacred pledge of Vnion is detained from us Surely I had râ—ther the Church-gatherers should blame the Minister for his indulgence to the people than that the people should have cause in this manner to complain of his severity but the golden mean is to be inquired for And this is discovered in the ensuing Papers where the Author endeavours on the one side to avoid the preciseness of some that admit to the holy Table onely some few persons chosen out of many hundreds and the loosnesse of some on the other side who admit hundreds and exclude not some few namely such as are ignorant and scandalous such he would have noted kept back and
friend The Answer returned Junii 5. WOrthy Sir Although my Letter written as I conceive on a very just occasion and in a friendly manner to Mr. Helm be not yet vouchsafed any answer yet have I this fruit of it that you upon sight thereof have been pleased thus far to shew your love to the Writer as to give me your Advice Advice led in by so favourable an elogy of your undeserving friend that were the Admonition sharper than any point of my letter yet should I think my self bound to take it well Monere Moneri you know the rest I do not only not take it ill but heartily thank you for it and will obey it preferring your judgment herein before mine own For truly when I consult with my self give me an ingenuous liberty to speak a little boldly with you I can see no cause but I may write more such letters That letter hath two parts one defensive of many Ministers for their life and learning well approved the other admonitory desiring a revisall of some points deliverd by that Preacher my friend In the Defense I have certainly said somewhat that cannot be refuted by silence nor as I think by words And in my Admonition I have touched that which ought to be retracted or at least excused Why am I not answered by letter if I am wrong to be reduced or informed if I am right to be confirmed To give no Answer in such a case I confess I cannot reconcile with the Rules of humanity which I have learned and which I did believe my friend would not transgress The true use of a letter is thereby to understand the writers mind and so to give him answer what other use may be made of it as you say truly I know not but I esteem it not worthy to be seen by Superiours against whose command I am so far from contending that I will not publickly condemn what they publickly commend But to speak to your second it hath been esteemed heretofore very conscientious to contend against some things tolerated by the Magistrate So did many zealous Preachers contend against sports on the Lords day tolerated once and so do some still contend against Usury tolerated yet And for Forms and Discipline the Old way you know was preached down when the Laws and Magistrates did endeavour to uphold it These preachers I cannot defend but would say something for them if it had been a Form tolerated only and not establisht For we look upon a Form tolerated as a thing not approved by the State but winked at for a time and dispenst with to content a party or side A Form tolerated is at most but for triall and so long as it is put to the triall it may be contended against not by force but by argument and disswasion Nor is this to oppose the State or cross their Intention for til they declare their Mind it is presumption in a private man to intrude into their Counsells And therefore while things are under Consultation as now it cannot be justly called opposition of the Magistrate if one dispute in a familiar letter against that which they tolerate Nay the liberty of familiar letters you know is of greater extent For my part there is none gives more to the Magistrate in matters of Religion that I do none is more ready to submit to laws in all things not cleerly contrary to the Highest Law And for the present Toleration although I think I may safely take the liberty is not this also a part of the Toleration to discourse of such matters either by letter or otherwise yet I will obey your Advice as I said and I cannot chuse but commend your Moderation in not judging any man scandalous for not being of your Form Though out of Form I am really Sir your Servant in Christ Another to the same not long aster GOod Sir Having not the leasure at present to attend you at Stow I send my letter to to salute you and your good company I have considered upon your Argument yesterday taking advantage from the rubric in our Service-Book That Catechizing and Confirmation must go before the Sacrament of of the Lords Supper Therefore your New Covenant The Antecedent is in the rubric after the Form of Confirmation And I cannot defend the former neglect of Confirmation in the Bishop nor any present neglect of Catechizing by any Minister But seeing there is now none of that Confirmation to be had a great want in the Church I think what if the Minister do his part in instructing people in the Catechism and the people not only make Confession of Faith but profess Repentance Charity Obedience nor hath the Minister any assurance no nor just ground of suspicion that they are not sincere shall he not admit them to the Lords Table I would not presume to condemn all the pious and learned Ministers of the Church of England that have administred the Sacrament upon such tearms When we cannot have all done we would we must be content with what can be done as the case standeth Well Confirmation I grant is commanded as convenient and profitable not so necessary but that in case it be wanting the Sacrament may be administred Now to the sequel How your Covenant can serve in place of Confirmation I do not yet understand It consisteth only of the Confession resolution and promise of the Covenanters whereas Confirmation or laying on of hands is an act of the Bishop to certify the person confirmed of Gods favour and gracious goodness towards him and it is joyned with prayer and benediction wherwith the party is thought to be strengthned and encreas'd in grace Your Covenant I grant is somewhat like the Answer in our Catechism where the Catechized undertaketh the Baptismall vow made in his name and promiseth by Gods help to perform it And surely that is done by all that come with us to the Lords Table And approaching to it in the quality of such as repent them truly of all their sins are in charity with their neighbours and intend to lead a new life they do renew their Covenant and in taking the Sacrament have the seal thereof as t is very requisite nor do I yet see how Ministers can refuse to give it Sir shall I be bold in secret to ask you what great deliverance is the ground of your Covenant I doubt of it because upon the late deliverance from the Scotish Invasion all hopes were cut off of reforming this Church according to the pattern of Scotland which unless I am deceived was one end of the Scotish Covenant receiv'd in England I deny not great Deliverances but I take advantage from the Scots Covenant and say that the Friends thereof instead of Deliverance have had a totall overthrow Give me a little light in this and reconcile the Covenants in the religious part of them for I meddle not with temporals That which you said as I take it of peoples having
excommunicated themselves by a defection from the Gospel in life and manners which is you say in effect all one as to fall from the Faith must be explaned by you For Apostacy from the Faith and profession of Christ cuts a member off from the Church and Corruption in manners doth but make a diseased member and such a one must be cured gently I remember a Covenant somewhere in Mr. Rogers his 7. Treatises a Book Dedicated to King James I would gladly know whether such a one as that might not serve your turn Your Servant C. B. Reader I am tempted by the mention of the Covenant in the former Letter here to insert what seems to have been written about this time Queries of a Christian Brother which he desires may be answered before he enter into the Covenant held forth at Winchoomb 1. WHether it be lawful for any number of people thus to combine without direction of Authority which is wont to be jealous of Meetings lest under pretence of piety somewhat else be intended 2. Whether all that is moral in this Covenant be not conteined in the Prayer of all Communicants the old way to live a godly righteous and sober life and in the profession to repent of former sins and lead a new life 3. Whether all that are Catechized the old way do not take on them as good a Covenant when they answer Yes verily and by Gods help so I will c. 4. What is meant by the corrupt and formal way of worship whereof they are ashamed If the worship established in the Church of England is it not a false and scandalous expression 5. What is meant by all other Godly disciplin if the use of the Keys where have these Covenanters any Commission 6. Whether they can be said to keep the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace that innovate in the Church and divide without cause Queries upon the Covenant at Winchcomb 1652. 1. VVHether it were not much better and more needful for the People to repent their departing from the Vow of Baptism and from the Orders and Ministry of that Church wherein they were Baptized than to charge the Worship thereof as corrupt when the corruption is only in themselves 2. Whether any People can have enjoyment of all Gods holy Ordinances that have not any Minister among them Ordained after the Apostolical manner 3. Whether Ecclesiastical Power be grounded in the People and not derived from Christ and his Apostles by a succession of Church-men 4. Whether it be not Schism to cast off obedience to the antient Apostolical Government of the Church And to be of these new Congregations to communicate in Schism 5. Whether Schism be not a great crime when as every Christian is bound upon his Salvation to maintain the Unity of the Church 6. Whether any example or pattern of a Congregation without dependence upon some higher Ecclesiastical power can be found in any Age till this last 7. Whether mutual Admonition and all that is good in this Covenant may not be practised keeping our dependence still on the lawful Guides of the Church 8. Whether they can be said to walk humbly and inoffensively toward All that take upon them to condemn the whole Church as corrupt and renounce Communion with all that joyn not in this Covenant Another Letter to Master H. about the same time SIR ALthough I have promised to write no more Letters such as the former wherein it seems you have found some dislike that you will not tell me of nor will I oppose your new Church-State any further than in modesty and charity I may yet having missed of your Company to day and having understood by Mr. Tr. that you have had a report brought you concerning your Orders and Me I desire you not to believe it before you hear me and the like I desire concerning any Report you hear of my Preaching One thing more Whereas I am informed that the last Lords Day you were much in confuting my Interpretation of 1 Cor. 5. 11. and brought consent of Interpreters that no not to eat is not as I understand it spoken of common eating I have here transcribed Diotat's note No not to eat Namely in common course of life shun all manner of voluntary sweet and friendly conversation with him The same shunning of Infidels was not required and therefore you must acknowledge your proof weak They might eat with Infidels Therefore much more with Christians I will trouble you with his note upon v. 4. When ye are He speaks to the Pastors and Conductors of the Church The meaning is Being gathered together in Ecclesiastical judgement having this my Declaration c. Whereby you plainly see your foundation for an Independent Congregation taken away Pray Sir weigh this and if you please the former Letter with the same quietness of mind wherewith I wrote it and return me two lines of Answer that I may know my friendly Office is not lost and take you the same liberty of correcting me who am your Christian Friend No Answer was returned to the former Letters and so there was a Cessation till the next year But in the mean time this following Paper came to my hands supposed to be written by Mr. B. out of a desire to have somewhat done in the way of Reformation by the neighbouring Ministers to take away somewhat from the grievous Criminations Mr. H. and such others usually cast upon them as hinderers of piety and hardeners of the people in their Sins This Paper I believe the pious Reader will take kindly from me intitled A Reformed Congregation 1. WE do in thankfulness acknowledge the great Mercy of God in not giving us up utterly to confusion and desolation but preserving us under any Government wherein Law and Justice is so administred that we may if we be not wanting to our selves lead a quiet and a godly life And we content our selves with the present State not seditiously seeking after changes 2. We do much honour the Church of England wherein we have been Baptized and bred and notwithstanding any small faults in the Constitution and Disciplin or great faults in the late Officers and Governours thereof we insist upon the same Grounds and adhere to the same Church as it was in Queen Elizabeths time defended against the Roman by Jewels Apology and against the Innovators by Hookers Ecclesiastical Politie 3. Yet do we not think all the forms and rites thereof so necessary but that we may as discretion shall require omit them upon occasion and in their stead without coutempt of the former use some that are different and serve well for order and decency in the service of God 4. To rest in any forms and rites whatsoever and to serve God only externally we hold a very imperfect and unacceptable serving of God who requireth chiefly the heart But as God hath made both our Bodies and Souls and Christ hath redeemed Both so do we desire to
sentences and judgements upon our Christian Brethren yet we preserve the practice of our Religion at home and sometimes partake of the publick Ordinances abroad and are in readiness to submit our selves either to the present Minister when he shall approve himself our lawful and Orthodox Pastor or to some other duly to be placed over us 2. I am a Member of the National Church of England which we acknowledge a true visible Church of Christ though somewhat clouded now and defaced by the modern innovations to which yet there are many thousand professors that have not bowed And the Communion of this Church we will not forsake but pray that Government agreeable to the word of God may be restored to it 3. I am a Member of the Church Catholick into which I was received at my Baptism and I desire to joyn with any peaceable Christian in the whole world in the profession of that Faith which was once deliver'd and in such forms of Worship which agree therewith And we pray that by the means of Christian Princes a Free General Council may at length be assembled to reconcile the Differences and guide the Affairs of Christendom to the good of Souls and the Glory of our Common Saviour TO THE MINISTERS HIS OPPONENTS 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 THE report of our Dispute being spread abroad and as it happens in other fights Victory being cry'd on both sides I thought it reasonable to publish this Account of it that the impartial Reader may judge Another reason is that our selves my brethren this compellation you will not disdain for Jesus sake may in cold blood review what hath passed and either I may come to you or you to me as Truth shall require The first honour is to Defend the Truth the second to Yield unto it If any of you will write remember those words of the Grave Hooker There will come a time when three words uttered with Charity and Meekness shall receive a far more blessed reward than three thousand volumes written with disdainful sharpness of wit If you please to hold an other personal meeting it is fit you answer our Arguments against you concerning what you delivered at Winchcomb Nov. 8. in disgrace of our Ministry and Parish-Churches but if you go on to decline answering and are only good at opposing I do not refuse to appear again in defence not only of our ministring the Sacrament but of the other two Theses That your new Churches are not the only true Churches And That Christ was truly Preached before these late years Upon which in conformity to the old Vniversity fashion I take leave to adde here not any Libel as one of you called it but my sad Epigram Papists took one away but you combine To rob the People both of Bread and Wine They blame us ' cause we have not Rites so many But you condemn us more ' cause we have any They will not call us Catholicks you can Scarce yield us the first name of Christian Poor English Church thy enemies from Rome Were cruel more unkind are these at home Your servant in the Truth Clement Barksdale Oxon. Nov. 16. 1653. Disputandi Sobrietas Ecclesiarum Medicina A true Account of a Dispute at Winchcomb-Parish-Church November 9. 1653. Written by a careful Observer November 11. and Printed with Licence November 16. for the satisfaction of the People at and neer Winchcomb Great is the Truth and it will prevail UPON the ninth of this November between nine and ten in the Morning Mr. Barksdale Minister at Sudeley the Respondent having waited a while for the comming of the Opponents first enters Mr. Helm Minister at Winchcomb immediately after him enters Collonel Aileworth Justice of peace Mr. Tray Minister at Oddington Mr. Wells Minister at Tewksbury Mr. Chaffy Minister at Naunton and some other 1. After they had taken possession of the Ministers Pue all together the Respondent ascends a Pue ex opposito which he had caused to be erected for the purpose his friend Mr. Towers Minister at Toddington and some other Orthodox Ministers taking up a lower seat next unto him on the right hand where first falling on his knees after a short ejaculation he shews himself and saluted his Opponents and after some little Pause the Question was proposed Whether it be lawful to Minister and Receive the Holy Sacrament in Congregations called mixt Or in our Parish-Churches Aff. The prior Opponent Mr. H. desired to begin with prayer Take your liberty said the Respondent who after the Preface wherein like a good Orator the Opponent told the people that Truth must look for opposition and that the Respondent was a native of the place and himself a stranger and the prayer done spake thus You will now give me leave also to speak three words 1. To God 2. To the Hearers 3. To the Opponents 1. To God I make my humble address and intreat you to lift up your hearts with me that he would be pleased to open our eyes that we may see the Truth to open our Hearts that we may embrace the Truth and to give us courage to confess the Truth and to hold it fast unto the end for Jesus Christs sake to whom be glory for ever 2. To the Hearers my earnest desire is that you would lay aside all prejudice and partiality and listen to what shall be said on either side with silence and patience And because I am a man of a slow Tongue of a tender Forehead of a frail Memory of a weak Judgement I have the more cause to beg of you my friends your secret assistance by your mental prayer that God would support me so far as I defend his cause For I declare in the presence of God the searcher of hearts that I do verily think that to be true which I maintain and that I am not willingly an enemy to true Reformation or the work of God in this place as I have been grievously charged nor am I a friend to any thing that can justly be called Popish or Antichristian God knows I detest and abhor it 3. Lastly to these Gentlemen my Opponents my request is that you would deal with me fairly and Scholar-like Take you your turns and give me mine to speak come you on one after one and let me have liberty to repeat to deny to distinguish to explain what I say so far as is needful And to conclude if we cannot agree in our opinions let us yet I pray be one in Affection and preserve amongst us that Christian Peace and Charity which is the mark and the honour of the Disciples of our gracious Lord and Master The Respondent in one of his papers afore this exercise had called the publick Meeting place as they term it the House of God But one of the Opponents Mr. W. put forward and omitting the Question began in a light velitation about that Appellation after this manner W. The House of God it is Superstition to
an ingenuous answer I do not know every one Tr. O! how can you justify your self in this W. Why here 's a confession of the fault we lay to your charge you give the Sacrament you know not to whom We have done now H. We thank the Lord Brethren that the good work is so happily brought to a conclusion this day You hear what he confesseth he doth not know some of them who they are and yet he should know them to be visible Saints A good Shepheard knows his flock B. Hold a little my Masters and take me with you Have patience while I give in my Answer I do not know them and yet I do know them I know them not some of them by name I have no familiar acquaintance with them I do not know them in civil relations but I do know them and own them in a religious relation I know no hurt by them Tr. You Know no hurt by them Alas Alas poor creatures B. Hear me out I do not only know no hurt by them but I know much good by them their visible and cheerful profession of the true Christian Faith their reverent behaviour at their Prayers their humble Confession of Sins earnest desires of pardon hearty promises of new obedience An appearance of Faith and Repentance joyned with Charity and thankfulness satisfies me very well for the time till I find they do deceive me H. You are deceived with too good an opinion of them If I durst I could say somewhat against some particulars B. God forbid you should have hurt for telling any one a necessary truth For my part I think and hope the best of all that promise fair I Judge according to charity I know one may act the Saint to day and the Devil to morrow Let me tell you 't is the judgement of our Church after the Fathers that Christ delivered the Sacrament to Judas also who went out immediatly after to betray him and before that was discovered by his Master to be a Devill You will not grant this however you know Peter himself that was so zealous upon triall the very next day denied his Master yea denied him with cursing and swearing All the rest forsook him and fled Their strength was little and their knowledge was less witness the Disciples going to Emaus fools and slow of heart and the question proposed about the Kingdom Acts 1. What is the lowest measure of grace I will not determine Where I see any hopes or weak beginnings of Christianity I embrace and cherish them In the School of Christ there be many little ones that must be gently used and there be some great ones that must not be offended but upon great reasons Why should I not think better of others than my self when the B. Apostle calls himself the chiefest of sinners and less than the least of Saints He that hath beams to cast out of his own eve must not be picking motes out of his Brothers eye 'T is true the Brother must be admonished especially by the Minister but this must be done discreetly and orderly and with meekness of spirit He that obeys one or a few scapes the censure of the Many and may not be reckoned as an alien None is so but he that proves obstinate after the methods of Counsel and Reproof And verily Mr. H. it had been a good method for you to have admonisht me and the rest of the Congregation whom you are offended with and to have received our Answer before you condemn'd us in your Pulpit And that Answer will serve now In what we have offended God we ask his pardon In what we have offended you we will give you satisfaction Thus doing we shall not be excluded from Communion by any just sentence H. You have some that might be named that both before and after the Communion have shewed themselves no sober men B. That may be and I shall desire to be informed of them that I may labour to reform them or exclude them if they be proved open and notorious evill livers And I do often commend and endeavour to bring into better practice the Duty of fraternall Admonition and Correption which is now the more necessary because we want publick Discipline see D. Hammond of Fraternall Admonition Having declared my self thus I must conclude your Argument against my Communicants till you prove your Accusation better to be only an Argument of your own uncharitableness H. I cannot yet allow of your Call to Minister For Ministers truly called are appointed and ordained by the Godly people But you are not so appointed Therefore B. You will I hope hereafter allow me equall liberty to oppose your Orders I have mine from a Bishop assisted by his Presbyters according to Apostolicall Institution and the constant practice of the Church The People cannot confer on us our power They may approve and assent to our Calling and give testimony of our good conversation and receive us when we are sent unto them I am owned as a Rector of the People to whom I Minister W. We are servants of Gods people Paul I am sure saith so of himself B. He saith so and so doe I their servant for Jesus sake Let them acknowledge us their spirituall Rulers and Fathers in Christ and we will in all humble condescension be their Servants for Jesus sake Jesus himself our Lord and Master stiles himself a Minister or Servant of his Servants and he hath said He that will be greatest among you let him be Servant of all 'T is easy to distinguish between a servant by voluntary condescension and a servant by necessary subjection Tr. You said before that in case of prophaning the holy things you would confess a Minister deserves suspension Who shall suspend him but the Congregation What other power is there B. I confessed the prophaner of Holy things to deserve great punishment but after due Admonition and upon his obstinacy not else Yet I cannot see how the people have any Authority to sentence him Tr. Who would you have to do it Who B. To speak freely I would submit my self to my Ordinary the Apostolicall Bishop or if you like the Latin word better the President or Superintendent for whom I have spoken before And I am ready to joyn with you in a Petition that we may have an Apostolicall Bishop set over us as it was in practice of the antient Church H. You stand too much upon the practice of the Antient Church come to the Scripture B. I am sorry you value the practice of the antient Church so little Pray where is your maine strength in Scripture for your Independent or Congregationall Churches H. Let us read the famous Text Mat 18 15 16 17 18 19. 20. Out of which Text I frame this Argument If here be meant by the Church a Congregation from which lyes no Appeale then is the Independent Church founded upon this Text But here is meant a Congregation c. What else will
invested with the ordinary lasting power of ordaining Elders of binding and loosing and of setting things in order herein who were their Successors you may see if you will inform your selves in the book of binding and loosing and in the Latin dissertations against Blondellus Pray take it not ill that we often assert this it is of such concernence that with this truth the Ministers of England must either stand or fall We speak not for Bishops to be Lords of Lands but Fathers of the Church You must all mark that Tr. The differonce 'twixt us appears plainly you are for Bishops which you call the Primitive Apostolical Bishops and in them you place the power which Christ hath left to his Church We are for the Bodies of Congregations which we say are under no superiors neither Bishops nor Presbyters but absolute and independent in respect of man and immediatly under Jesus Christ Col. A. Bishops and Presbyters are all one in the New Testament namely Acts 20. 17. Paul sent to Ephesus and called the Elders of the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and v. 28. the holy Ghost hath made you overseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore Presbyters and Bishops are all one P. Noble Sir I answer Bishops in the new Testament are also called Presbyters but they are more than those we now call Presbyters who are to be ordained and governed by the Bishops Any Presbyter may be called Bishop or Overseer of his own Parish but those we eminently stile Bishops now who are Bishops or Overseers and Rulers of those Parish Bishops or Presbyters The Presbyters St. Paul sent for from Ephesus were properly Bishops Tr. No Hear my Argument The Church of Ephesus was but one Congregation I prove it out of Eph. 2. the two last verses In whom Jesus Christ all the building fitly framed together c. A building fitly framed together is but one Congregation But the Church of Ephesus was a building fitly framed together Therefore c. B. To the Major Not only one single Congregation but many united under one Bishop may be so called And that Ephesus was not a single Independent Congregation but a Metropolitical Church you may learn of the most Reverend Primate Dr. Usher a man I think of great Authority among you also as among all Scholars most justly I refer you to his Geographical Tract of the Asian Diocese Tr. Return to the Text Mat. 18. v. 19. I shall prove it undeniably that a single Church hath an independent power But first will you grant me that two or three may be taken for a small Congregation B. Yes I desire to grant you all I can without injury to the Truth Tr. Then thus I argue Where is the Duty and the Blessing there is the Power But in a small Congregation where two or three c. is both the duty and the Blessing Therefore there is also the Power namely of Excommunication B. Where is the duty c. You leave out a very necessary word Independent For supposing that a power of Excommunication were in a particular Congregation I cannot grant it is there independently but there may be an Appeal But did you ever hear of an Indepent Church of two or three Tr. Yes there may be a Church of so few and that independent B. A private Church I grant not a publick enabled with power of Excommunication a power supreme Lo you here is Popery in a little volume an independent absolute supreme Church made up of two or three H. Did you not grant to Mr. Tr. that two or three may be taken for any small number now you recall your words You know if there be twenty in a company we sometimes say there be two or three B. No indeed that 's too far wide Let the people judge of this whether any will say there be two or three if there be twenty persons met in a room Two or three that is twenty silence I pray But Sir the words of Christ are verified if there be but barely two And therefore I may justly think it too small a number to make the Church mentioned v 17. It cannot be for this reason The Church in the 17. v. is of more authority and more in number than the two or three mentioned in the second admonition v. 16. But two or three v. 19 20. are not of more authority nor more in number than the two or three mentioned v. 16. Therefore the two or three v. 19 20. are not the Church mentioned v. 17. Answer this and you shall hold your Supremacy to the worlds end for me H. You hold an Appeal from the Church to the Civil Power which is plain Erastianism B. Erastianisme I shall make it appear to be Christianisme But what was Erastus pray H. I came not here to be Catechized by you B. Erastus was one that denied the power of Excommunication in the Church which I do not but desire it may come into practice upon true Rules If you would know Erastus see the Book of Binding and loosing at large And noble Sir you that are a Civil Magistrate let me call you to witness that I stand here an Advocate truly to plead for the Supreme authority of this Land and I undertake to shew that the Highest powers in the Commonwealth have also the Highest Rule of the Church and may receive Appeals from any Christians that complain of wrong in any Congregation whatsoever Col. A. The Highest Powers haply doubt of that Authority and forbear to execute any such till they be more fully satisfied B. Were I worthy I would request them to know their power and use it for the restitution of Primitive Episcopacy They doubt you say but Sir these men flatly deny that authority of the Civil Magistrate in matters of Religion H. And how I pray do you prove it B. Let every soul be subject to the Higher Powers Every man saith St. Chrysostome whether Lay or Clergy Col. A. There is no such distinction of Lay and Clergy in the Scripture All the Lords people are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his Portion B. Sir you say most true that All the Lords people are his Portion that is as selected and called out of the World but his Ministers are more peculiarly his as called from among his People and admitted nearer to him being separated for the Ministration of Holy things But however all sorts of men I say whether Ministers or others must be subject to the Highest powers Tr. Yea in Civil things they must be subject not in Ecclesiastical The Powers are distinct B. They are distinct in their Objects or Matters about which they are exercised they are united in the same Subjects or Persons that are supreme in all causes both Eccleclesiasticall and Civill W. You were wont to pray for the King in that stile B. Yes when the King was and now they that have the Kingly power may withall assume the same title if they please W. By no means