and which he hath set downe in malitious Articles and interrogatories shall be answered neither doe I meane therein to omit any speach that shall seeme any way pertinent to purpose being loth he should say he was not answered Wherein if you see no colour or shew of reason for this newfound platformes or proofe of his accusation consider then I pray you first what indignitie hath ben offered by this libellor to the Church of God to her Maiestie and her lawes to the Ecclesiasticall state and such as liue in obedience of lawes and secondly what they deserue that haue offered this indignitie vnto so many and honorable persons and brought this scandale into the Church of God the common 1 Rescius iâ— ministromach aduersarie maketh profite of those shameles slaunders which those vnciuil and vnlettered authors of the Admonition haue vttered against the Church the aduersarie triumpheth to see this contention disordered companions take occasion of contumacie and rebellion when will the gouernors vse like diligence to represse them If then you loue religion her Maiestie and the state you will not suffer such notorious reuellors at lawes and gouernors if you be desirous of trueth you will no more be abused with vaine gloses H. Nicholas hath painted his booke with quotations as full as T.C. he vseth the same stile and seemeth to haue the same erronious spirit He saith as well as T.C. that for Sions sake 2 In euangel regni he will not holde his peace and yet nether of both speaketh to purpose nor to the edifying but rather the pulling downe of Gods Church and therefore seing both the authors and their dealings haue bene tried let them be both dealt with all and esteemed according to their deserts It may be these felowes looked for answere of her Maiestie and to say sooth the Magistrate were most fitte to shape aunsweres for such disordered petitions but in the meane while it may please them to accept of my answere they are no such high persons but meaner men then her Maiestie may answere them reason it is seing they put their petition in print they should also receiue a printed answere and seing they chalenge me they should heare my answere And let them not thinke but that howsoeuer their malice is repressed by lawe their fond assertions and cauils shal be refuted by reason That trueth may appeare I haue done my endeuour God is my witnesse I seeke for nothing but trueth and peace there rosteth then nothing but that trueth be embraced and lawe maintained for little auaileth it to knowe either if by faction mutinie lawes may be broken trueth oppressed to make trueth and Iustice knowen it belonged to vs to defend the same belongeth to Magistrates to wish the same to all reade therefore and iudge and seeke the maintenance of Iustice and trueth without which neither Church nor state can be well gouerned AN ANSWERE TO A CERtaine calumnious Petition and also to certaine Articles and Questions of the Consistorian faction CAP. I. Wherein is declared that the authoritie and state of Bishops as it is vsed in England is lawfull and the Petitioners cauils brought to the contrary answered ALmightie God when he gaue Magistrates and Lawes vnto his Church appoynted first and next vnder the soueraigne Magistrate one high Priest to haue the 1 Deut. 17. leuit 13. exod 28. nom 3. 4. superintendence of the affaires of the church and vnder him 2 1. Chron. 24. 25. diuers heads of their diuisions that things might be done in order And lest wee might suppose that this was but a ceremoniall constitution vnder the Law of nature the chieftie of the Priesthoode ouer all his was first in Noe then in Sem then in Abraham then in Isac and Iacob afterward in the 12 Patriarkes which for many yeres gouerned their whole families both in matters diuine and humane If equalitie of ministers had bene so profitable no doubt God would haue vsed that order in his Church The Lawe ceremoniall ceasing our Sauiour ruled his Church as soueraigne Bishop of our soules he adioyned no fellowe aldermen to himselfe Departing this worlde he gaue commission to his disciples within those places where they remayned to gouerne the church So we reade that they did excommunicate alone that they did ordeine ministers alone yea and did by superiour authoritie order both the affayres and goods of the church Paul did excommunicate 3 1. Timoth. 1. Alexander and Hymenaeus Peter as Beza confesseth by the swoorde of excommunication strooke Ananias and Saphyra alone Beza aduers Erast Paul ordeined Timothy and Titus and Timothy and Titus ordeined other ministers The Apostle Paul prescribeth orders and lawes to Timothy and Titus and their churches the populer gouernement which our platformers commend was not so much as in time of persecution vsed This was the practise of the Apostles successors likewise Saint Iohn writeth to the bishop of Ephesus to the bishop of Smyrna and likewise to the seuerall Bishoppes of other Churches to them hee giueth directions them he reprehendeth for bearing with the wicked which if they had had no authoritie aboue other Ministers had bene very vnfitting All Ecclesiasticall stories writing of that argument giue witnesse that seuerall Bishops succeeded the Apostles at Rome Constantinople Alexandria Ierusalem Antioche other famous Churches Saint Ierome and diuers other ancient writers testifie that Marke ruled Alexandria as Bishop which happened in Saint Iohns time All counsels giue preheminence to Bishops ouer other Ministers and to the counsels the fathers subscribe by infinite testimonies whereof it may appeare that excommunication ordination and the gouernement of the Church next vnder the prince did belong to Bishops the wordes I haue set downe heretofore in my English booke written against this counterfeite newe discipline Saint Ierome hath a most pregnant place for excommunication Ieronym aduers vigilant where hee wondereth that no one Bishop could bee found to excommunicate Vigilantius and if all the gouernement of the Church was committed to Bishops no doubt but that they disposed of these matters also When in our times religion began to be reformed the chiefe learned men that then liued and tooke paines therein In histor Apologia confess August protested in their publike writinges to the entent that all posteritie should knowe it that if Bishops would embrace religion they would most willingly submit themselues to their episcopall iurisdiction accompting in most godly and expedient for the Church Melancthon vseth many speeches to that purpose fearing that if the authoritie of bishops were reiected a greater tyranny would succede and Caluine likewise to Sadolete protesteth that he misliketh not Episcopal authoritie Neither can any thing bee deuised more absurd then that equalitie of ministers which is brought in to ouerthrow Bishoppes for no gouernement can be without superioritie neither can any thing bee well ordered where there is no speciall care in some one it
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
haue good cause to speake Bernarde 4 De consid ad Eugen. lib. 2. speaketh against the Pope for clayming soueraintie in both swordes which no bishop in England claymeth neither doth any bishop by his episcopall authoritie exercise the materiall swordes as the Pope doeth and therefore as Bernards reasons are good against the Pope so are they not to be vsed against our bishops neither was it euer Bernards meaning to condemne the prerogatiue of bishops allowing the same in so many of his epistles and writings and commending so highly the bishop of Rome notwithstanding his infinite abuses he 5 Serm. 66. in Cantic non est mirum si ordinibus ecclesie deirahunt si mandatis non obediunt bitterly inueigheth against those heretickes which for their apish imitation of the Apostles called themselues Apostolickes because they condemned prelacy and therefore calleth them Stultissimos obstinatissimos Thus the man or at least his partakers haue sought euery corner of the Fathers and yet finde nothing against the prerogatiue of bishops therfore is hee glad to flye to the practise of late churches late writers but the conclusion which he draweth from them is most weake for admit that in Geneua in France Flaunders and other churches they haue not bishops of such quality in all respects as wee haue no more haue other churches such Elders as they of Geneua haue it is sufficient that we haue such bishops as in time past they had at Ierusalem Constantinople Alexandria Antioch Carthage Seuil throughout the world before that the cornercreeping Aldermē crept out of the slime of fond mens inuention that the bishops in reformed churches of Almayne haue episcopal authoritie ouer other ministers in ordination of ministers correction of maners so that they are to be blamed that digresse from all antiquitie yea and later churches not we that agree with al former times and the Almayns for both they the Danes albeit some of them mislike the names and most of them haue taken away the liuings of bishops yet reteine still their authoritie and office in their superintendents generall superintendēts and had done better if also they had reteined the liuings rewards of learning stipends of ministers wherefore let the libeller cease to obiect vnto vs the Heluetian and Dutch and Danish churches for they differ farther from the Geneuians then from vs and the petitioner himselfe 1 Pag. 10. confesseth that they haue authoritie though not so much Of late writers I know none of name that hath condemned our bishops euen the chiefe authors of this innouatiō Caluin and Beza as may appeare by their letters which are to be shewen speake euery where honourably of them Zanchus greatly extolleth that order onely Beza as some say hath written a foolish 2 Entituled The iudgement of a learned man beyond the sea pelting discourse wherein he would proue our bishops to proceed of men as if himselfe were a bishoppe of God and Daneau in that poynt consenteth with him taking himselfe also to be a bishoppe of God and yet the Geneuians when through weakenesse of body sicknesse and age hee coulde not execute the ministerie shut this bishop of God from his liuing and forced him through want to depart out of their Citie Bullinger and Gualter and diuerse learned men of Suitzerland and Germanie haue by letters and writings allowed our bishops yea 1 Histori confess August Melancthon Camerarius Sturmius wished to God they had such in their Countreys neyther did any of these that are named by the libeller euer speake against other then papisticall bishops let the worlde then iudge what honestie or shame was in this companion that alledgeth Luther Melancthon Bucer Caluin Beza Bullinger Zanchus Erastus Gualter and Mounster against our bishops whereof some neuer spake of them others neuer spake of them but with reuerence and none against them and 2 In diuers of his letters to be shewed Beza complaineth of some that drewe his wordes vttered against popish bishops against our bishops If therefore the libeller do not bring forth some other places then these hee hath quoted there is no cause but that euery man shoulde take him for a forger of false writings and an abuser of his reader But suppose Beza or Daneau or some other of that sort shoulde write their pleasures in priuate letters or in their imperious paltrie pamphlets who would not be ashamed to oppose these two or all their headie followers to Ignatius Dionysius Chrysostome Augustine Ambrose Hierome and all antiquitie yea to most writers of late times And if these men that patronise the consistorie which cannot stand with bishops for in deede there is no agreement in gouernement betwixt the rusticall fauni and the muses betweene learned men and men of occupation betweene clownes and schollers if these I say doe not speake against bishops wee may not thinke that bishop Iewell orbishop Elmar or bishop Bollingham or others that haue written in defence of the state haue vttered any thing that soundeth to their disgrace 1 In his Apologie Bishop Iewell expressely defendeth the degree of bishops aboue priestes and good reason for it is the publike doctrine of this Church and those that goe against it make this Church to reuoke a part of their publike confession and doe more harme by their secret trechery then euer did Harding by his open enmitie neyther can there be a greater scandale or dishonour offred to religion or the state then that we should now alter the publike confession of faith made by our Church Iewell saith that the office of prince and bishop is distinct and no man denieth it for no man by the office of bishop challengeth as doth the pope soueraigntie of both swords but if any conclude because bishops ciuil officers are distinct that a bishop shal doe no ciuil office he wil conclude that hee may not looke to his house nor do the office of a subiect nor fight for his country which is a nice point of puritanisme and little better then trechery and by the same reason should ministers be excluded both from gouernement of colledges and hospitals and al offices in the vniuersities whereto our puritanes ambitiously aspire are as great canuasers as any notwithstanding their ministerie or puritanisme Neither can master Nowels words be stretched against bishops for what if Christ would not receiue riches or dominion of the deuil may not a minister receiue a benefit of a Prince or because Christ forbade them to rule as Princes may they do no offices of good subiectes but liue like traitors or like puritanes that liue in open contēpt of lawes if then the petitioner had any conscience he would not alledge Mr. Nowel against bishops whose authority he mainteineth against Dorman and whose resolution for this present gouernement is sufficiently knowen Master Bilson distinguisheth betwixt apostolicall gouernement and princely gouernment but hee
for such men when Luna is praedominant in their heades 18 Quaere whether it be a matter tolerable and beseeming wise gouerners that clownes and men of occupatiō should determine matters of religion or that ideots should iudge of lawe and gouerne all matters ecclesiasticall and by what rule of diuinitie it may be surmised that an ignorant man being chosen an Elder shoulde sodenly be endued with new graces and as Th. Cartw. the great disciplinarian patriarke faith become a new man as if he were new perboyled in Peleus his tubbe 19 When the Consistorie consisteth of 13 good men and true whereof sixe looke one way and seuen another Quaere why the odde voyce should make the sentence of seuen to be the determination of the Church and whether this be not an odde discipline where one odde man maketh a determination to be called the Churches determination 20 Quaere by what lawe Doctors Pastors and Deacons make one corporation seeing in no place of scripture they are mentioned together nor by any authoritie or commission are linked together 21 Quaere by what authoritie the Ministers of forreine churches take on them to prescribe formes of discipline and new lawes vnto our Church seeing they teach that all churches haue equall power and whether this be not a foundation to a new popedome 22 Quaere whether all the errours of Barrowisme doe not folowe and may be concluded of Th. Cartw. Wat. Tr. and Dud. Fenners positions and whether this sort of men is fit to deale with those sectaries and ought not rather to be driuen to make a publike recantation of their foule opinions 23 Quaere in case a musterd seller or chandeller should be chosen a churchalderman and thought worthie to iudge of the highest matters of religion who should all that while furnish the common wealth with musterd and candels and whether that their sentences would not sauour ranke of musterd and tallowe and how many candlesellers or men of occupation they finde to haue bene present in Synodes of olde time at the debating of pointes of religion 24 Quaere whether the disciplinarians doe not flatly deny the principall pointes of her Maiesties supremacie and take from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the church to nominate Bishops to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from the Ecclesiasticall courtes to call Synodes and other authoritie giuen to the prince by the lawes of England and endeuour to bring in forreine lawes and iurisdiction repugnant to the statutes of supremacie and her maiesties prerogatiue and the lawes and liberties both of the Church and all her maiesties subiectes 25 Quaere if the establishment of the consistoriall discipline in the Church of England would not ouerthrowe infinite statutes most of the Common lawes diuers courtes of Iustice the two Vniuersities and innes of court and finallie the whole state and whether the Vniuersities in places where this discipline is entred be not decayed and the state shaken notwithstanding that the power thereof by diuers lawes contrarie to the rules of discipline is abridged 26 Quaere how many sound diuines or learned men there are that haue bene bredde in the places where this discipline is receiued and whether they haue not parted the Church goods among themselues where they were masters as the soldiors parted Christes coate giuing some little portion backe againe of the whole least they should liue all together without religion 27 Quaere whether it be likelie for the vaine hope of a hundred poundes pention depending on the vncerteine pleasures of marchants men of occupation and husbandmen that yong men of towardnes will giue themselues to the studie of diuinitie and what braue youthes are made ministers within the disciplinarians iurisdiction 28 Quaere how the spoyles of the Church which these men haue made in all places where they rule are bestowed and what portion thereof is come to the maintenance of learned men or learning 29 Quaere what commodities her maiestie doth receiue now by renthes subsidies first fruites patronages lapses custodies of bishops temporalities and how much the same amounteth vnto likewise what seruices she hath now by the Ecclesiasticall state and their followers and whether shee should not loose both great reuenues and make many faithfull seruitors vnable to serue her if this inkepot discipline shoulde come in place and if any man say that the same should be bestowed vpon noblemen and knightes and gentlemen that should succeede in the place of others let inquire be made whether some puritane dame doe not spend in apparell more then the reuenues of diuers cathedral churches and whether it would fall out that the reuenues of the Church would bee wasted vainely which now mainetaine manie able men to doe the prince seruice 30 Quaere whether in all places where the factious disciplinarians haue set foote in this Church they haue not set the people against their pastors and deuided the people among themselues and hardened mens heartes and made them without naturall affection and lifted vp their followers in pride and vanitie and made the people farre worse then before and sought nothing but their owne profite and aduancement 31 Quaere whether it be not a dangerous point to this Church and state that we are so much vrged by some to imitate the course helde for reformation by them of Geneua and Scotland heretofore considering the dangerousnes of their plattes and the effectes that followed vpon them and the vnsounde diuinitie whereupon they are grounded 32 Quaere by what point of discipline they of Geneua expulsed their Bishop and liege Lorde and right Countie of Geneua and what reuenues of the Church they seased into their handes and what portion they allowed backe againe to the poore ministerie and whether it bee not capitall in that state to speake for the estate of Bishops which pointes cleared it will appeare what reason they had first at Geneua to inueigh and declaime against the state of Bishops Quaere whether the peremptorie dealings of the ministers of Geneua and some others adhearing vnto them and the greedie sacrilege of their abbettors and followers and the vtter subuersion of the ecclesiasticall state which this antischolasticall and fantasticall discipline doeth euery where worke haue not greatly hindered the reformation of religion in France and other places and is not still likely to hinder the same vnlesse the same be newly recocted and reformed 34 Quaere whether the disciplinarians doe not deliuer doctrine as dangerous to princes as Rosse Sanders Allen and other papistes namely concerning excommunication deposing and murdering of princes that withstand the religion and reformation which eache of them respectiuely desireth 35 Quaere whether 1 History of the Church of Scotland pag. 213. Knoxe saide truely of Caluin and certeine other Ministers then residing at Geneua and if hee reporte their doctrine truely whether they holde a sounde point of doctrine teaching That it is lawfull for
established doth not follow Wherefore vnlesse the author his partakers haue better supply of reasons then he hath brought here there is no cause he should desire conference or disputation If he desire to shew his skil in writing why doth he not take those bookes that haue bene written in this argument in hand and confute thē frō point to point why doth not T. Cartw. answere in the defence of his consistorie If he say that imprisonment hath hitherto bene an hinderance vnto him yet will not that excuse serue the rest that were neuer in prison why doe not W. Tr. Will. Ch. D. Sp. and others confirme their demonstrations of discipline wherein all their reasons stand confuted hauing so much worke to doe why shoulde he desire more belike this petition was made to bragge men downe but if he thinke he can do it he deceiueth himselfe for as farre as her Maiestie and lawes will permit they shall find a number readie in all sortes to encounter them but the libellers meaning is not to dispute as I thinke for no man hath worse grace in disputing nor more simple facultie in writing by hiding his head he seemeth rather to be ready to flye then fight his talke therefore of aduised writings is idle for both T. Cartw. and he hath written many things vnaduisedly and both flye the hammering of their cause only his purpose is to slander the state by libels to lurke in corners to haue all ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernement left without defence so that euery man might speake against them without eyther feare of punishment or controlment which neyther is good nor commendable for it would be most absurde if 3 or 4 difformed platformers should be suffered to dispute in schooles that her Maiesties authoritie is vnlawfull that our lawes and gouernement is wicked that the state is to be changed As for the course that Doctor Rainolaes vsed against Hart it was lawfull he being thereto authorised percase fitting for him might better be suffred being in poynts of religion resolued then in gouernement doubted of yet was it long and without effect but this course of priuate conference by writing which the libeller desireth in this cause is leude being against her Maiestie the lawes and state it would bee a way to rebellion it would make more contention it would bee infinite tedious and to no purpose the godly and Christian Emperors of Rome were of a contrary mind to this libeller for in diuerse expresse lawes they vpon great penalties forbid any to call in question the confession of faith of the Church 1 Cod. de sum trinit fid cath forbidding vt nemode capublicè contendere audeat neither doth the 2 Admonit de de lib. concord author of the admonition to the Churches of Saxonye allowe any such course as the libeller desireth nay his desire is that matters may bee discussed in some synode of learned men what shame then is it to deuise leude meanes to trouble the Church and falsly to impute them to those that neuer vsed them nor thought them conuenient the libeller therefore may do well hereafter to leaue to the wisedome of her Maiestie and the rest of the gouernors of the Church common wealth the composing of matters which is best wrought by good lawes and sharpe punishment that such as will not be answered with reason may like dizards bee corrected with rods wherein if he thinke himselfe dealt withall vniustly let him come forth when he will eyther in aduised or vnaduised writing his cause shal be prooued wicked and his consortes facts auowed punishable CAP. II. That there neuer was any gouernment by Church aldermen or supposed Ecclesiasticall Consistorie eyther vnder the lawe or in the Apostles times or after nor can without great iniurie to the Church of England to the Magistrates and others be admitted ALthough this positiō hath bene so fully 1 In the booke de presbyterio proued that neither T. Cartw. nor his schollers nor the whole packe of our aduersaries haue as yet made answere yet because the booke where the discourse is cōteined is in latine which percase thou vnderstandest not the argumēts lie dispersed so that without difficulty they cannot be gathered I wil here make a briefe of thē So shalt thou see what a cleare trueth this wise disputer thinketh to batter with vaine shew of mens opinions and be better resolued of the notorious vanitie of the consistoriall discipline That the Iewes had no meere ecclesiasticall consistory distinct frō the benches that handled ciuil causes these reasons may ascerteine vs. First there is no place of scripture where the institution of it may be found Those iudges that are mentioned Exod. 18 Deut. 17 are of an other sort for they heard all ciuil causes yea causes of blood inflicted ciuil punishmēts vpon offenders Those that are founde in the 11 of Numbers were of the princes counsel And other sorts of Collegiat Elders and Iudges are none found Let them shew them if they can the place of Leuiticus toucheth onely priestes in particuler and matters concerning their only office Further there appeareth no cōmission to haue bene giuē to any bēch of Iudges to determine ecclesiastical causes seuerally neither are there any lawes prescribed in Gods word to direct them by so that if any Iudged in such causes they proceeded both without authority and also direction which were very absurd to thinke for if God had appointed any such order of Iudges hee would no doubt haue giuen them authoritie and directions There appeareth not the lest step of any act of any such eccle siastical cōsistory through the whole scriptures or stories of the Iewes there is no memory found of thē in the time of Moses nothing vnder the iudges or kings or in the decay of the Iewish state not so much as the Sanedrin that condēned Christ to death is any precedent of the ecclesiastical cōsistorie whatsoeuer Beza can say to the cōtrary for it was the only remainder of the Iewish pollicy succeeded in the place of the counsell Numbers 11 and of the Iudges appointed Deut. 17 as is apparent by examination of the authority and acts of it All that authority which this ecclesiastical consistory is supposed to haue was either in thepriests or princes The princes in the time of Moses of the iudges kings made lawes and gaue souereign directiōs The priests iudged of things cleane vncleane executed caused al ecclesiasticall orders to be obserued 2. Chron. 19. exod 18. The priests Leuites appointed by the prince iudged of right wrong consecrated others to the functions of priesthood where was thē the ecclesiastical chimerical consistory all this while or how could it be supposed that others would encroch vpō the priestsoffice being debarred by Gods law not being mentioned in scripture or histories Neither are the ecclesiastical consistories commended for wel doing
nor dispraised for euill doing neither is there any memoriall of their doings nor recorde of their names nor note of their succession nor being in the whole scriptures Nay not so much as the Rabbines or the histories of Philo or Iosep make any mention either of their names life acts death or any thing cōcerning thē which were wondrous strange if any such extrauagant cōmanders had bene for howsoeuer it fareth with others the acts of gouernours cannot lie hidden To be short nothing can be more absurd then that such odde companions as these aldermen are shoulde controll Princes and iudge of religion being most of them without the function of priesthoode or knowledge of diuinitie or good letters The same reasons may also perswade vs that there were no such church gouernours in the Apostles times or after There appeareth first no institution of them Secondly no lawes wherby they are to gouerne Thirdly no act of theirs Fourthly no commendation or reproofe of their persons or doings Fiftly their authoritie was inuested in the Apostles by our Sauiour to whom also the keyes were giuen and not to these false aldermen that come in rather like burners of houses then gouernours of Churches with counterfeite keyes Sixtly in the whole storie of the Acts of the Apostles there is not the least suspicion of them neyther doe they stand vpon any thing but false interpretations of 3 or 4 places of scripture Nor to conclude can any thing be more vnlikely then that our Sauiour Christ Iesus the wisedome of God hauing giuen the keyes of Iurisdiction and knowledge to his Apostles and their successors would take the same from them and hang them at the elbowes of men without authoritie knowledge or discretion such as the Church Aldermen are for the most part In the times succeeding next to the Apostles all histories counsels fathers giue witnesse to the gouernement by bishops in time of persecution and after the time of persecution by bishops vnder the soueraigne direction of Christian Princes Neyther for 1540 yeeres did euer this foolish conceit come in any mens heads that merchantes men of occupation musterd sellers and tinkers were men sufficient for the gouernement of Churches Then which nothing can be deuised more absurd nor inconuenient It is the high way to all heresies for when matters be decided by voyces of men that neuer knewe Scriptures Fathers nor tongues how is it possible that they should teach trueth or continue in trueth or meete with errours this is the principall cause of the multitude of heresies in the lowe Countries The same also would be a Seminarie for schisme for when all parishes and ministers and Consistories haue equall iurisdiction as these fellowes teach that they ought to haue who shall remedie contentions that fall out the synode a mere conceite for what neede they to care for the synode or the censures thereof that by no lawe are subiect to synodes All learning would decay for who should neede to studie if a Taylor comming warme from the shopboard be a man fit to gouerne the church or who can haue any courage to studie where this sacrilegious discipline that hath made hauock of all the reuenues of the church is placed and the stipends that are allotted to learded men shall bee arbitrary and may bee taken away at the discretion of a sort of ignorant marmarchants clownes and men of occupation Fourthly where there is no lawe prescribed how can the Iudges bee kept in temper euen now notwithstanding all lawes and penalties that may be deuised partialitie fauour hatred and other affectons beare sway How much would they sway more if the Consistorie should come in place which is ruled onely by will and pluralitie of voyces and not restrayned but by pretence of God worde which euery man vseth to construe to his owne profit Downe would the princes reuenues fall and the Realme be left without meanes of defence and made vnable to resist the enemie If any man thinke that the spoile of the church should come to the princes hands he abuseth himselfe The spoyles of other places do teach vs what would fall out yea our owne experience may herein sufficiently instruct vs. For albeit in the ouerthrow of Abbeys the Prince had some share yet are not now the Princes of this land able to mainteine that force that in time past they were when great nōbers of both horsemen footmen were maintained at the charge of religious houses the reuenues whereof now are wholy imployed yet scarce able percase to buy some one meane gentlewoman a verdugal so leudly are they spent so great is the pride waste of men the reason of it is this that what they spent thē in mainteining of men the same is now spent in veluets silkes glittering coates Suppose then that the church goods should come to spoyle do you thinke they would be better spent it should seeme no for all is now spent in surfet excesse that in time past was spent in mainteining of men And I knowe where in certaine manors taken from bishops thousands of men were mainteined the reuenues of all which do not now buy peticoates for my mistres the owners wife and her maydens not a man of al their tenāts scarce able to do her Maiestie seruice at his owne charge they are so fined skinned All those that liue by learning should be turned along to picke sallets whereby Poperie hauing no resistance would finde easie entrance and those that are best able being discouraged for want of meanes make least resistance Vnto all these points the Libeller saith but litle only vpon one point he stādeth that the hot pursuers of their pretended reformation haue some inducemēts to thinke that there hath bene in the world some such consistory as he imagineth but where or when he knoweth no certaintie nay he knoweth not what maner of beast the same is His proofes they be so weake that I marueile hee was not ashamed to make muster of them scriptures he bringeth none Aworld to see how those that in oppugning our state were so copious in allegations of scriptures to mainteine their Aldermen and Discipline doe not so much as endeuour to bring any scripture or by reason drawen thence to confirme their cause The Fathers as him selfe confesseth speake obscurely his chiefe helpe is in Caluin Iunius Beza Dancau yea and such obscure compagnions as Bertrand de loques Bastinge Charpentier du Pleurre Golart Iacomot Pollan and a rable of others not worth the naming But if the consent of halfe a score base writers and of bad alloy be so forcible as to perswade the good liking of the consistorie what reason haue wee to stand in defence of our gouernment by bishops which hath the consent of so many generall counsels so many Fathers so many ages yea so many learned men also of our time as these bee and as well learned and godly as the other diuers of whose pietie hath passed
with gaine and other vanities are polluted whose ignorance maketh them vncapable of ecclesiastical function Those elders which Ambrose speaketh of assisted the bishop with coūsell these are not counsellers but controllers gouerners with voyces equall to the bishop His elders were in cathedrall churches onely these are in euery 3 So our platformers would haue it albeit the Geneuians practise be farre diuers paltry village Those were men learned these are ignorant marchants artificers and clownes for the most part Nothing can be more repugnant thē Ambrose and the Disciplinarians Ambrose 4 Lib. 8. cp 64. sheweth that excommunication belonged to bishops these put the keyes into the hands of strange elders yet very yong in Gods church good for nothing but to oppresse the ministerie and learning such elders as Ambrose speaketh of were deriued from the Iewes but such Aldermen as these haue deuised the Iewes had none Ambrose his elders were not temporary nor all of counsell these are Ambrose complayneth that the Bishop and his Clerkes did not liue in common as in time 5 Inter Can. Syluestri past yet such was the griedinesse of bishops that it was necessary to diuide the church goods and such was the negligence of priests that they were sent out of cities to dwell in the countrey which now is obserued and that which Ambrose complayned of restored viz. that certaine of the chiefe of the ministery should be assistant to the bishop what then would these fellowes haue more would they haue all the ministers of a diocesse to liue in one citie and to ioyne in hearing of all matters This would be a beginning of singular non residence cause of great trouble cōfusion not a meanes to do iustice but to hinder iustice After Ambrose succeedeth Hierome a mā most vnfit to speak for the new eldership for if that be true which he saith that bishops elders in the primitiue church were all one then away goe the aldermen that are no bishops which reason did so sticke to Bezaes fingers 1 De presbyter aduers Erast Epist ad Heliod disputing against Erastus for the eldership that hee could no way lay it downe handsomely without the ruine of his cause Againe if in Hieroms time all Clerkes did feede with the worde much more did priests Neither doeth it make for these mens cause that he saith that as the Iewes so the Christians had a Counsell in euery cathedrall church for that is his meaning for that was of ministers and is obserued in our cathedrall churches and vtterly ouerthroweth the presumption of these vnlearned aldermen that with vnwashen feete tread in the sanctuary with filthy hands leaden heads handle matters of religiō faith churchgouernment wtout colour or title taking the keyes out of the successors of the apostles hands Possidonius 2 In vit August Socrates albeit they are said to speake of the consistorie and that plainely 3 Lib. 5. cap. 21. yet cleerely ouerthrowe the same for neither of them euer vnderstoode or heard of any temporary lay elders such as are lately raised from the dunghill to the highest tribunall of the church Nor do they speake of others then such as liued in cōmunity with the bishops in their cathedrall churches such as we haue in our church of which also the canon 4 Dist 95. c. ecce 15. q. 7. si quid law maketh mētion declaring their office to consist in preaching administring the sacraments so that I cannot but wonder with what visage that libeller could alleadge the colledges of ministers of the worde assistant to bishops in their Cathedrall churches to proue Elderships in euery village assistant to euery minister and consisting of prophane and vnlearned men and neither hauing salary nor salt of discretion nor continuance as the other had Of these allegations therefore this conclusion may bee drawen out that in counsels Fathers and antiquitie there is not any argument or coniecture found of all that Discipline which these newfangled platformers desire Nay there is not any proofe for the same in the new writers onely I except the Geneuians and their followers that haue shamefully applyed scriptures to their Disciplinarian dreames The churches of Saxony Wittenberg Nuremberg Strausborgh Ausburg Frankeforde Hamborgh and other places of Germany the county Palatine except likewise the churches of Zuricke Berne Basill other true christian churches in Zuitzerland Denmarke Sueueland Pomerany Poland and Hungary and all the learned men that gouerned those churches both in their doctrine and practise are against the discipline of the new Consistories Moreouer those that speake for the Consistories are not all of one opinion In the state of Geneua there is but one cōsistory there are not many that agree about the proofe parts office or lawes of it In Geneua they doe not allow their consistory power to make or disanull lawes In Fraunce they giue that power to synodes The consistoriall discipline in France was at first receiued of a fewe and that not for euidence of Scripture or proofe or reason but by suffrages of the Nobilitie and Gentry whereof some too well liked the sacrilegious doctrine and by the earnest labour of Beza desirous to conforme other churches to that of Geneua most of the learned ministers dissenting from him and disallowing his absurde discipline and not yeelding before the Princes to whome they serued constrayned them What reason then hath any to pleade for the consistoriall gouernment which is vnknowen to all antiquite and repugnant to Apostolicall practise and the most florishing Churches in Europe and was receiued with grudge of learned men and onely resteth vpon the conceite of Caluin Beza Daneau and some halfe score of blind writers as Iohn Baptista that ignorant Italian and Sneccan and Bertrand de Loques and Oleuian and Robert Stephen a better Printer then diuine and Perot and de Plurre and I knowe not whom neither of marke nor qualitie especially seeing so many pregnant reasons are brought against the translation of it from the Iewes and establishment of it among Christians as none haue answered and this libeller thinketh it most wisedome to passe ouer with silence If this be a good argument that Daneau Bertrand de Loques Bastingius Iunius Piscator Oleuian Caluin Beza Sneccan and Iohn Baptista d'Aureli thinke so how good will this reason be that all the fathers of all ages haue bene of a contrary iudgement and diuers godly Martyrs and learned men in our Church and other reformed Churches in Germany Zuitzerland Denmarke induced with better reasons haue thought otherwise Besides all this it shall appeare that those authors which the libeller alledgeth neuer beleeued that eyther in time past there was a consistorie of partie coluored Aldermen like to that this libeller desireth or that such a one now ought to be placed in euery Church That Zuinglius shoul de teach or beleeue that Christ did institute such Aldermen
portum Carpenter the matter is euident for he most bitterly inueigheth against them of Geneua and not very doubtful in 1 Bodini methodus historiae c. 6. Bodin For the wordes alleadged out of Bodin his methode of histories concerne the Aldermen nothing He speaketh of the censure of Bishops and did neuer imagine nor could conceiue that the censures of the Church were put in the hands of prophane men Illa pontificum censura saith he nihil maius aut diuinius cogitari potuit Secondly he doeth not commend the men he speaketh of but the censures for that they were so strictly executed Which commendation if magistrates were as willing to execute the censures of ecclesiastical Iudges with vs as at Geneua they are would no doubt worke like effectes with vs as with them And if the magistrate should not fauour them they would doe litle good in any place Thirdly he commendeth the same censure not as the institution of Christ or as a necessarie pollicie for the Church but as a very good pollitike and ciuill order deuised by men to keepe the common sort in awe But what if Bodin should say somewhat of matters he vnderstoode not his authoritie is very weake in this case being neither good in diuinitie nor excellent in pollicie and neither vnderstanding the state of Geneua nor our countrie and therefore no fit man to make vs here in England new lawes In the Harmony of Confessions there are certaine wordes inserted sounding much to the commendation of the Eldership Neither is it to be marueiled if they of Geneua that collected thē together made the wordes to sound as fauourably as might be for their owne state and gouernement but that all the churches or most of thē yea or any saue the disciples of the Geneuian eldership consent in one harmony of prayses of that forme of discipline cannot be proued No although the authors with 2 See the notes in the latter ende of the harmonie notorious falsifications wresting and forgerie drawe the sentences of the confessions frō their purpose to speake for the presbyterial gouernment Wherefore vnlesse the petitioner can iustifie this kinde of practise there is not so much credit wonne by the vaine names of Carpenter Bodin and the confessions of Churches as there is lost by forgerie falsifications and grosse leasings To strengthen the weake ioynts of this discrasied reason drawen frō authority he saith Frist that the consistorial gouernment is also receiued of the Churches of Heluetia the low countries Millain Poland and Hungarie Secōdly that it is vnder the Turke among the papists wherein he sheweth either singuler malice in lying wilfully or presumptuous ignorance in speaking of matters he vnderstood not For it is wel knowen that the churches of Heluetia neither haue Geneuian elders nor excōmunication And that the churches of the lowe countries to speake nothing of France nor Scotland liue in great confusiō disorder a matter rather to moue vs to refuse the consistorie then to embrace it And likewise it is euident that in Millaine Hungarie there is no visible church but of those that professe poperie And albeit there be some fewe elders amōg the papists of France Germanie and Hungarie yet doe they not shew thēselues nor haue they any allowance or thankes for being there But what maner of conclusion is this That because among papistes and Turkes Elders are receiued that we must also receiue them There are also Anabaptists Arrians and I know not how many heresies among the Turkes papistes which no reason requireth vs to embrace Poperie likewise is professed vnder the Turke not onely this consistorial discipline So that nothing can be more absurde then to conclude that therefore we are to admitte the Consistorie because it is crept in in Turky and among the papistes Likewise it is a vaine bragge to say That in the Church of Geneua Scotland France there bee thousands and ten thousands of the best diuines of the worlde I would the number of them were greater and their learning more excellent then it is I doe not enuie their nombers nor excellēcie but the rewarde of learning taken away and the great decay that hath hapned of late time in those churches doeth both teach vs what is now and what we are to feare and that when the reckonnig of good diuines is made it will come farre short of thousands much shorter of tenne thousands The ignorance want of ministers in France other Consistoriall places is too too lamentable such is the blessing of this countrie that one corner of England is able to match them all eyther in nomber or qualitie of learned men albeit we doe not reason from our owne authoritie The conclusion therefore that this bedlem discourser maketh is too too foppish viz. that Caluin and Beza and Tauergues and Chauueton and Perot and I know not who are more likely to finde out the trueth then the author of the remonstrance and my selfe for no man standeth vpon the authoritie of vs two though the simpler of vs in this cause feareth not T. Cartw. nor W. Trau no nor Beza their patriarke nor all their brags Neither doe I desire any man to beleeue me because I say so this is onely the conclusion of the platformers that beside the authoritie of men can say nothing for themselues But seing the interpretations of the consistoriall faction are fond fantastical singuler and contrary to scriptures to the Iewes histories to all the fathers and counsels yea contrary to all reason good concluding agree badly among thēselues and finally stand vpon the fooleries of the Geneuians their stupide followers vpon their falshood forgerie false allegatiōs abusing of scriptures I do thinke and auow that neither diuinitie nor humaine reason wil permit any man any longer to be abused by them or to giue credit to those that vse them Wherefore cōsidering the weake groundes which the consistoriall gouernement standeth vpon and the forgerie falshood and impudencie whereby it is supported and the disorder and confusion it would worke in the church in learning in lawes in her Maiesties authoritie in her reuenues in euery mans priuate right beside if it were receiued and lastly the seditious lewd courses that some men haue taken to establish the same If some haue bin punished it cannot be denied but that they haue wel deserued it yea that they haue deserued more punishment and lesse fauour For neuer was matter preferred with worse course which I doe not speake for that I would haue either the disciplinarians faultes or penalties aggrauated for the faults are grieuous in ough already and the punishment I referre to our superiors but least any should surmise they are wronged or that the lawes are rigorous or that the proceedings of her Maiestie and officers against them are iniurious For further declaration whereof I haue thought good not onely to answere the vaine cauils of the petitioner against the proceedings of
forger be packing that without authoritie maketh out new commissions and new lawes Their desire is that euery congregation c. might haue one Petitioner or two sufficient teachers c. faithfully labouring in the worde of God or doctrine If their congregations be as great as shires Answere two would be too litle for euery such congregation and besides that the course that is alreadie taken for preachers is better then they can deuise any For now in diuers shires there bee hundreds of preachers distinguished in parishes If euery parish bee a sufficient congregation as in deede it is how shall two bee maintained in euery parish where as nowe not euery tenth parish with the liuing that belongeth to the Church is able to maintaine one preacher Doth he thinke men wil enlarge their liuing If he doe he doth but dreame And as for the deuises of him that cogged vs forth the motion with submission sounding an alarme to the sacrilegious spoyle of the Church they would bee the ouerthrowe rather of learning then the maintenance of the ministerie for other great birds gape for that pray As for these poore dawes when they haue made way for others they may go picke wormes for any part they can get thereof themselues when Abbeyes were ouerthrowen 1 That appeareth by the preface of the statute concerning that poynt erecting of schooles hospitals and colledges of preachers was pretended but whither the spoyle went wee doe well vnderstand and doe not thinke that there will be other prouision nowe then was then or that men will in spoyling bee more religious now then some were then They woulde haue assisting elders Petitioner c. that should not encroch on the magistrates authoritie and they would haue the most honest and sufficient men togather for the poore and keepe the treasure of the Church The treasurie of the Church woulde bee so thinne Answere if this deuise of elders and lay deacons shoulde take place that they shoulde not neede to take any care for the keeping of the treasurie At Geneua and in the reformed Churches of France as they call them the treasurie is all but one poore almes boxe They neede not feare robbing why then should any that fauoureth the Church like of their beggerly deuise or of assisting elders proctors for the poore that are but new conceits calculated by a glasse of wine vnknowen to scriptures fathers and antiquitie and borne out with sacing and sauour of nought but sacriledge Neyther can his aldermen nor lay deacons bee prooued nor doe they abstaine from encroching vpon the magistrate nor will any such men as hee supposeth take on them the base function of lay deacons and therefore all these desires are nothing but a fardell of foolerie They would haue olde helpers so quallified Petitioner as the Apostle commandeth 1. Tim. 5. Doe they knowe what they would haue Answere Let them shewe eyther commandement in scripture or practise in the primitiue Church or Church of Geneua of their olde widowes and then I woulde hope they had some care or knowledge what they desired if they cannot then I woulde pray some yong helpers to helpe vs away with such old fablers They would haue all these ordeyned in such maner Petitioner and by such persons as the word of God practise of the primitiue Church and moderne Churches doth warrant What if these moderne Churches neyther agree among themselues Answere nor with the worde of God nor primitiue Church will you not then confesse that you require things not coherent and that cannot stand together Looke where you finde any lawles counterfeite lay elders in the ancient Church or where any ordeyned but the bishop looke whether at Geneua there bee consistories in euery parish and what authoritie they haue And see whether Scotland doth not condemne imposition of handes and diuers orders which Geneua alloweth All these deuises cannot stand together and therefore if you had learned any thing in lawe you might well vnderstand that forasmuch as you alledge things contrary your libell and petitions are to bee reiected They desire synodes particuler prouinciall and nationall Petitioner and moderators of them They must shew better reasons Answere or else no man will regarde their desires Oecumenicall synodes and synodes of diuerse nations they exclude and ridiculously distinguish particuler from prouinciall synodes and make particoloured synodes and a mash of lawes fitter for sicke horses then men And by the same they goe about to ouerthrow the ancient gouernement of the Church the lawes of the Realme the prerogatiue and reuenues of the Crowne and to say all in one worde both religion and learning They woulde Petitioner that the partie grieued might appeale from the particuler congregation or synode at the first instance to the magistrate This seemeth to mee a poynt that will hardly bee prooued Answere for the common receiued opinion is contrary Beza doth flatly deny it and others exclude the prince from all iudgement yea and office in ecclesiasticall causes This fellowe therefore is the onely singuler doctor of discipline that giueth cognition of appeales from synodes to the prince But marke I pray you the ridiculous ignorance of this simple fellowe first he would haue the appeale from the synode or particuler congregation in the first instance And yet euery man may see that the first instance was where the cause was first begunne that is in the parish or consistorie and not before the synode Secondly he wil not say that any man may appeale in the last instance for that were too much as hee thinketh so that still running on in the disloyall tunes of puritanes hee taketh from the prince the last cognition and giueth it to his synodes They desire that such people Petitioner as be alreadie capable and willing to liue as becommeth Churches of Christ might liue as they bee commanded by Christ If euery man might liue as he list Answere so hee coloured his pretence with Gods word and Christes commandement there would neyther papist nor other heritike be repressed for euery man maketh religion and Christs commandement a couer for his pretences But gladly would I he should answere me this question whither hee doth thinke that none doe liue as becommeth Churches of Christ but such as haue his dogbolt deuises of elders and their doltish gouernement if hee answere so as here he seemeth then must I tell him that there can be no greater slander of this state or of her Maiestie and the gouernement If not what doth he tell vs here of people capable and willing to liue as becommeth the Churches of Christ as if the people of England were neither capable nor willing so to liue Againe let him tell mee in good sooth whither hee doth beleeue that the consistorie and newe discipline thereto belonging was in deede commaunded by Christ and if hee beleeue it let him shewe the place and the
sicke cannot bee prooued eyther by scriptures or fathers In Geneua the Deaconship is turned into a vaine office of Proctorship for the poore managed by men of base trades Why then doth he accuse others that is guilty himselfe Article 29 The Deacon must reade the Gospell in the day of his ordination putting on a tunicle but this vesture is scarcely knowen at this day Answere The booke of ordeyning of ministers printed Anno 1559. and confirmed by parliament hath no such matter And therfore vnlesse hee can shewe his author for his tunicle let him weare the tunicle together with his foure elbowed iacket himselfe But admit some piece of apparell were omitted in deacons yet is the fault not great nor to bee ascribed to any but to those that commit the same Article 30 The bishops at the ordination of ministers do tell them the weight of their charges and what labour they ought to take yet most of them are neuer resident Answere If they labour not as they shoulde doe let them bee punished If they bee absent for lawfull causes and at times why are they more blamed then the skittish puritanes that notwithstanding their charge are like malecontent and mutinous persons still wandring vp and downe to places where they haue nought to doe rather to trouble the state then to edifie the Church and rather hinder others labours by spreading of false doctrine and nouelties then helpe by teaching faith and maners Article 31 The lawe woulde haue them giue themselues to their function yet many attend ciuill and worldly affaires Answere If ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes bee so repugnant as is pretended why doe ministers gouerne their families or colledges or what hath T. Cartw. to meddle with the charge of his hospitall a matter meere ciuill and wherein he hath done more good then in ecclesiasticall causes For he hath bestirred himselfe so that what by rewardes what by auailes of his hospitall and pinching those that are committed to his charge and what by buying and selling the man is growen fatte and rich Of his ministery wee see no fruit but contention and trouble Percase hee will say hee is no minister But why then doth hee meddle with the ministers office like to him are his followers men verie stirring and busie in all matters of state howsoeuer this man misliketh them therin Contrariwise for subiectes to execute the commaundementes of the prince and to see their ministerie also discharged is commendable and not onely allowable The lawes of God and the lande allowe it Wherefore then shoulde hee maliciously condemne that which hee cannot disprooue Article 32 Bishops only excommunicate and suspend yet by the booke of ordering ministers euery one is to administer the discipline of Christ And Christ hath giuen the keyes equally Answere The lawe is misreported and misinterpreted For the words are that ministers shoulde minister discipline as this Church hath receiued it and so they doe And by discipline is admonition publicke and priuate and preaching and executing the ordinaries sentence vnderstoode That euery minister by law shoulde excommunicate or suspend others equally cannot bee prooued the keyes were giuen to the Church yet euery one doth not vse them equally the priests of the lawe were all partakers of the priesthoode yet might not all doe all things All were not Iudges nor gouernours nor looked to all things But these fellowes would haue an Anabaptistical equallity brought in that such as haue no merite to mount higher may bring downe others lower make them equall to themselues Both the wordes and practise of the lawe make against the libeller besides all this it woulde bee infinitely inconuenient and absurde if such armes as the Church censures were put in euery cockebrayned fellowes handling and such odde fellowes as the puritanes are made gouernours of the Church equall with the best Article 33 The Bishops Chapplaynes and Doctors vse not priuate admonition in their Cures Answere Many things the libeller affirmeth and prooueth nothing So that it should seeme he taketh pleasure in talking and calumniating But suppose they did not folow the course of puritanes in priuate and parlour admonitions paraphrases is not the office of the minister publike not priuate must he as these puritanes do creepe into womens closets or must he put his feete vnder euery marchant mans table their shriue them such admonitions as the office of ministers and lawes require they do vse The course of puritanes in their priuate exercises and paraphrases they take neither to be commaunded by law nor to bee suffred in reason for the manifold abuses of it and much more credite were it for the puritanes if they had neuer begunne their table sermons nor secrete conference and catechizations of other mens wiues and daughters Article 34 The bishops admit not preachers to preach without licence and make vnpreaching ministers and ordeine ministers without Cure and preach out of Apocrypha against law Answere Neither doe they herein against lawe nor reason For albeit ministers haue by their ordination power to announce the worde by reading yet is it not fitte that euery one should expond it but such as haue learning that is knowen by long experience and must bee testified by writing And good it were that many that take vpon them to preach were turned backe to read For they marre and abuse many good texts of scripture fill the peoples eares with nouelties and want discretion to profit them either in faith or maners Secondly they make none vnpreaching ministers but giue euerie one licence to announce the worde by reading and priuate admonition albeit not by publique exposition Neyther if they shoulde make ministers such onely as can breake the worde aright and are answerable to Saint Paules rules should they finde many such among the conceited sort that preach not Gods word but their owne conceits Thirdly it is not vnfit nor against lawe that men learned should be made ministers though presently they haue no cures nor doth the booke of making ministers condemne it For albeit the word congregation bee vsed yet nameth it no speciall congregation Finally it is not vsuall for any to chuse textes out of the Apocryphall Scriptures yet if any do so the offence is not great seeing for maners they are to bee read and hauing confirmation of Canonicall scriptures are to be receiued That which he saith of bishops that they take away letters of orders vpon euery supposed misdemeanour is vntrue For neither doe they offer it nor may they doe it by lawe Article 35 Seldome doe bishops at the time of their consecration vse Coapes and neuer vse they pastorall staues yet both required by law Answere Neyther Coapes nor pastorall staues are by lawe enioyned to bee vsed The booke of ordering ministers printed Anno 1559. shall witnesse with mee that I say trueth yet in mine opinion it were not amisse to vse pastorall staues if for none other cause yet to beate such
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
crowne and for a contumacious and rebellious person that maketh question whether hee ought to obey such lawes as her Maiestie and the whole parliament and wisest men of England haue thought to bee godly and conuenient and lastly in what case the Putcase and his fellowes are that in broade speeches openly and in printed bookes directly oppugne them and by calumnious questions pinch at them 2 Quaere whether those that woulde ouerthrowe not onely the priuiledges and liberties of the Church of England but also the whole ecclesiasticall state their iurisdiction and liuings seeke not the ouerthrowe of Magna charta and infinite statutes and of a great part of the common lawes of this Realiue and seeke the dishonour of her Maiestie and the state by requiring at her handes things that tende to the violating of her oathe taken at the time of her coronation and the ouerthrowe of the rewardes of learning and whether such as are chiefe doers in these causes are longer to bee suffered to proce do in their presumption 3 And because the Putcase maketh mention of that reuerende Iudge Sir Christopher Wray late lorde chiefe Iustice of England let him also answere whether hee did nor both in his opinion as a iudge and in bitter reâ—mes as a man in vtter dislike of these mens obstinacie coudemne those that obstinately refused before ecclesiastical iudges to take their othes or to declare being examined mattens concerning themselues or others so farre as then concerned had life or member and whether the reuerend learned iudge and lawyers of England haue not resolued the proceedings of ecclestasticall courts to be lawfull and disallowed the notorious contumacie of those men that refused notwithstanding vpon their owne vaine conceipts to answere 4. Quaere whether the booke of Fenner that is intituled sacra Theologia and came forth with the Pythagoricall allowance of T. C. conteine not strange diuinitie and whether it be likely that the resolutions of the consistorie shoulde bemore learned then the positions of two such omniscient diuines 5 Quaere whether it bee not reason to make T.C. recant those dangerous opinions he hath published in that booke and whether those that made the newe communion booke are not to be called in question for publishing of new confessions offaith and new doctrine 6 Let also great inquiry be made by what law or title the churchaldermen do clayme so large authority both in ecclesiasticall and domesticall matters as lately they haue taken vpon them in some churches k Quaere what is become of the actes and memorials of the consistorie that is supposed to haue beene both in the Church of God vnder the lawe and vnder the Gospell and what may bee the reason that so famous men should neither haue their names nor doings mentioned in any historie holy or prophane or other writing Quaere whether such as suffer their children to die without baptisme because the time of the assembly of the congregation commeth not betweene their birth and death are not guilty of contempt of baptisme and whether they that teach this doctrine bee found christians that rather then they will breake a consistorial rule will suffer christians children to depart without the badge and marke of christianitie 9 Quaere whether they that cal those scriptures which are commonly called Apocryphall lyes and fables doe therein declare themselues to haue the iudgement of learned men or modestie of ciuill persons seeing the fathers of olde time and diuers learned men of our times also doe honor them next after the Canonicall scriptures 1 Zanch. confess and whether T.C. would not take it in euill part to haue his voluminous replies called lyes and fables which notwithstanding are farre inferior to the worst part of the Apocryphal scriptures 10 Quaere whether the consistoriall constitutions doe not bring into vse the iudiciall lawes of Moses as for example that of retaliation of capitall punishments of adulterie and blasphemie and whether felonies that were by Moses lawe punished ciuilly may not be punished with death and whether that the Consistoriall faction doeth not deny her Maiestie power to pardon offenders that by Moses iudiciall lawes are to be punished with death 11 Quaere how it happeneth that the disciplinarians shame not to speake against Bishops which themselues deny not to haue bene euer in the Church since the Apostles times and which we offer to proue to haue authoritie by the word of God seeing they commend a fond and new found gouernement that hath neither authoritie of lawe nor confirmation by ancient practise the lawes whereof are most absurde and vnreasonable 12 Quaere by what authoritie they interpre the wordes Dic Ecclesiae and presbyteriqui bene praesunt c. and the wordes of the Apostle 1. Cor. 12.28 Ephes 4.10 Rom. 12. contratrarie to all the ancient fathers to histories to themselues yea contrarie to the text it selfe and common reason 13. Quaere why Ministersshould not be forced as well to subscribe to the gouernmeÌ„t of the church of England as the ministers of France to the French discipline they of Geneua to the ordinances of Geneua these being so lately inuented and established and hauing so notorious exceptions against them and being no way to be compared to the orders of our Church for authoritie antiquitie or other good condition or qualitie 14 Quaere whether the Consistorie decreeing and proceeding contrarie to the discipline of France and Geneua and their new Zion is to be allowed or obeyed and whether euery acte of the Consistorie be lawe to binde the rest of that congregation and if it be then what certeintie can be in that gouernement and whether that gouernement be not worse then papall seeing the Popes proceede according to their owne lawes these fellowes will not be bounde by any lawes either of their owne or others 15 Quaere if the Consistories sentence be the sentence of the Church whereunto euery one is to obey and he that obeyeth not to be holden as a heathen and publican how it chanceth that the Synode sometimes is so bolde as to reuerse the Consistories sentence and not to holde the disobedient as a publican and sinner 16 Quaere if by the wordes It shall not be so with you all power of ordination iudgement making and executing of orders deposing of ministers and such like authoritie be taken from Bishops by what reason the ministers of the new discipline in their new Consistories and Synodes take on them so peremptorily to put in and out and to make lawes and to determine most absolutely and imperiously 17 Quaere what time of the yeere and vnder what signe the resolutions of the Consistorie are most ripe viz. whether when the sunne entereth into Aries or Capricorne or in haruest time or midsommer moone and whether a madman that hath Lucida interualla as one of the authors of the petition hath bee a sound man to make a piller of the Consistorie and what order is to be taken