so by consequent of the Churches of Asia notwithstanding all he said before of their spirituall Pastors and Superintendents shall I now tell you what I thinke verily if this Tradition of the feast of Easter and that other of the age of Christ so credibly reported so confidently auouched deliuered ouer to so few hands and so short a succession were found hollow and false at the heart in the very nexte age that followed the Apostles and at length as the receiued opinion is condemned for heresie I know not how a man should frame himselfe to beleeue such Traditions to be sound and vndefiled which haue no such pregnant euidence and haue runne through the hands of so many pitchmongers as haue liued successiuely so many hundred yeeres after the death of Victor and Irenaeus Yea but saith he this was not vniuersally receiued and obserued but onely of those Churches in Asia and therefore we are not bound by S. Austines rule to receiue it as a Tradition from the Apostles well then succession from hand to hand and Bishop to Bishop in particular Churches is not sufficient to make a Tradition apostolicall let him hold that without partialitie as well in Italy as in Asia Howbeit Polycrates and those worthy Bishops and Martyrs of Asia may not be ruled by S. Austines rule and if that Epistle of Polycrates subscribed Synodically by so great a multitude of Bishops may be credited this Tradition cannot chuse but be Apostolicall and so vniuersall in nature though particular in practise but what shall wee doe on the other side with the Tradition of the West Church which was further fetched then the other by so many winters and sommers as S. Iohn liued after Peter and Paul that is to say thirtie winters at the least and so many sommers wherein this westerne Tradition might well bee either Sunne-burnt or weather beaten shall we follow S. Austines rule here too and so beleeue neither the one nor the other to be Apostolicall ware that friend Papist if ye meane to goe for a good Catholicke yet it is cleare that the Tradition of the west Church was not vniuersally receiued no more then the other of the East before the Nicene Councell therefore either S. Austines rule was then no rule or else no Christian for the space of 300. yeeres was bound to beleeue that the one was left by S. Peter and S. Paul no more then the other by S. Philip and S. Iohn nay further we reade not that any Canon was made contra Quartadecimanos in the Nicene Councell whereby Epiphanius or any other father should score them vp for heretickes but onely that it was thought meete the Tessaredecatites beeing few Euseb in vita Constant. lib. 3 cap 13. 17. Socr. lib. 5. cap. 20. 21. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 18. 19. Can. 8. Apost should yeelde to the greater number now whether they yeelded or yeelded not we haue no sure euidence onely we may strongly coniecture they did not yeeld by that we reade of this matter in Socrates and Sozomen as for that peremptory magisterial Canon which casteth euery Bishop Presbyter and Deacon out of the Church if he celebrate his Easter ante vernum aequinoctium cum Iudaeis it is not knowne where or when or by whom or what it was enacted and so consequently where or when or by whom or what it should be obeyed Wherefore I for my part cannot disallow the resolution of Socrates that the feast of Easter was neuer imposed vpon the Church by the Apostles but brought to obseruation by the free choise and liking of Christian nations and so continued by long custome till by the brawling and immoderatenesse of some wayward men the Church was constrayned to worke out her owne peace by vniformitie Now to Augustines rule beside a number of instances which may be brought against it as namely the dignitie of Alexandria ouer Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis and the dignitie of Rome ouer the West prouinces which the Councell of Nice groundeth neither vpon Scripture Apostle Can. 6. Ierom ad Euagr in epist ad Tot. Aug. epist 19. nor Councell but old custome as also the appropriating of the name Bishop to the chiefe Ministers wherein the custome of the Church no Tradition or Councell generally preuayled to this rule I say that it cracks the very crowne of the popish church for nothing not conteined in the scriptures could be vniuersally obserued but eyther Traditions from the Apostles or else the Decrees of plenarie Councels it is cleere that the Popes vniuersall power is shutte out of doores and therefore to requite the intricate Dilemma he talkes of let me reason thus with your Papist The Pope either hath power to impose decrees and constitutions vpon the vniuersall Church of Christ or else he hath not if hee haue then Austines rule is crooked and may deceiue vs if he haue not then the Popes vniuersall shephardship ouer the whole Church is come to nothing Howbeit I beseech you marke further how hee hudleth vp contraries and so marreth the fashion of his owne rule for if all things obserued vniuersally must be followed and imbraced as Traditions from the Apostles if they bee not contained eyther in scriptures or Councels then no man may presume vpon any alteration of states and times to abolish them if they may abolish them and alter them then are they not bound to follow imbrace them adde hereunto that as the Apostles successors as hee saith might and haue alteted and abolished apostolicall Traditions generally practised in the vniuersall Church so I would see some reason why they may not stil vpon the like alteration of circumstances abolish more of them and so it will follow that all the doctrine of the Catholicks not found in scripture hangs vpon circumstances and may if it please the Apostles successors be quite abolished hath he not spun a faire threed thinke you that thus indangereth his owne religion yet he croweth lowd after all this fond feather-fluttering that all is as cleare as the Sunne yet neuer durst any Catholicke father or church one or other set downe this remnant of Traditions and vnite it to the body of the canonicall Scripture which infallibly demonstrateth that all is not as cleare as the Sunne and it is further to bee obserued how hee is faine to clowt out Saint Austines rule with a new patch which marres all for when he saw that vniuersall practise is not enough to proue a Tradition apostolicall vnlesse it be traced still downeward from the Apostles to our dayes Are kept he is not content with Custodiuntur which he findes in Austine but addeth haue bin vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop which no man aliue is possibly able to make good in any one vnwritten Tradition popish or catholicke vnlesse the Church had continually appointed in euery age such an one as Sir Francis Drake that should trauell all the worlde ouer from
euen in his sight and presence Now what can this second beast be but the Lambe skinned Dragon tongued Prelacy of Rome and what other beast did the Romane Empire euer yeeld vnto but this onely whereof it followeth that the first beast is not onely the heathenish Emperours but the succession in generalitie for the heathenish neuer yeelded any of their heads to be cured by the Romish Dragon nay marke further where the g Apoc. cap. 18. holy Ghost teacheth that this first beast that hath seuen heads and ten hornes is ridden by the scarlet coloured whore of Baylon which cannot be vnderstood singly of the heathenish Emperours but generally of the Empire of Rome which at length yeelded his backe to bee sadled and ridden by that Babylonish Harlot which h Cap. 19.20 is afterward called a false prophet Wherefore as I sayd before so I say againe come i Reu. 18.4 out of Babylon that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receiue not of her plagues O mercifull Father open our eyes that we may see the vglinesse of Poperie in the cleere glasse of thy holy word and still teach vs by the continuall experience of thy gratious fauor and protection to take heed of the sauage designements of the Romish Dragon Hardwicke the 28. of Ianuarie 1606. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Lectorem Corporis angusto mihi pes fuit alter in antro Mens quoque vi socia corporis aegra fuit Ne pigeat tamen hunc librum percurrere patris aegroti sanus filius esse potest Debilis aura vias solet exiccare palustres Et lapides magnos guttula parua cauat The Contents Sectio 1. Questions touching the Church Scriptures Fathers and Traditions in generall by way of Introduction Sectio 2. Of the Lords day eating blood maryage within degrees of affinitie polygamy and punishming theft whether they be determined by scripture or Tradition Sectio 3. 4. Of Traditions in generall Sectio 5. Whether the Fathers holding certaine points of Papistrie be therefore excluded out of our Church Sectio 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Of praying for the dead Sectio 11. 12. 13. 14. Of Purgatorie Sectio 15. 16. 17. 18. Of Transubstantiation Sectio 19. Of prayer to Saints Sectio 20. 21. 22 Of vowing chastitie and Priests mariage Sectio 23. Of the errours of the ancient Fathers Sectio 24. Of Iustification by merite of our owne workes and the superabundant workes of the Saints Sectio 25. Of free-will to merite heauen Sectio 26. Of the power of the keyes ouer the quicke and the dead Sectio 27. A Conclusion containing certaine generall inducements that Poperie is the true way that leadeth blinde men and fooles to heauen so as they cannot erre and that our Religion is an inexplicable Labirinth that hath no direction which is plaine blasphemie against God the author and inspirer of the Scripture A BRIEFE ANSVVERE to a Popish Dialogue between two Gentlemen the one a Papist the other a Protestant The Dialogue Sectio I. PApist Doe you beléeue the Catholicke Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed through the whole world which Church hath euer since remained on earth and shall so continue vntil the second comming of Christ Protestant All this I doe beleeue Pap. Are the Protestants of this Church or the Papists or both Pro. The Protestants onely Pap. Haue you any outward meanes to perswade you that the Protestants are onely of this Church or are you mooued thereunto by inspiration onely Pro. The inward meanes is the spirite of God the outward is the canonicall Scripture Pap. This inward meanes lyeth hidden in your owne breast but how do you by this outward meane discerne the true Church Pro. That church which doth teach practise the doctrine conteined in the canonicall Scriptures is the true Church of Christ cōtrariwise that church which in matters of faith teacheth a VVittingly and wilfully any doctrine repugnant or not grounded vpon the same word is an hereticall Church a synagogue of Satan Pap. The Scriptures you say are the outward meane for discerning of the true Church haue you some outward meanes to discerne the canonicall Scriptures or doe you know them by inspiration onely Pro. The outward meane is the vniforme b There be other outward meanes beside the consent of antiquitie consent of all antiquitie Pap. You doe then receiue the testimonie of ancient writers for the discerning of the canonicall Scriptures why doe you not likewise beléeue that the Apostles did leaue many things to be obserued in the Church by tradition without writing séeing that the one and the other is confirmed by the like vniforme consent of ancient writers Pro. The Scripture is the sure rocke whereon to build our faith wherein all things are contained necessarie for our saluation The Answere IT is a common saying that such as doe deficere in extremo actu faile in the last act are foolish Poets but whether they be foolish Diuines or no that faile euerie where beginning and ending and all iudge you and that you may doe it the better obserue I pray you how vntowardly this popish Diuine begins to lay his foundation that you may the better iudge of the whole frame of his building The word Catholicke is taken three maner of wayes first for that which is opposed to heretical or schismaticall as Ecclesia Catholica the Catholicke Church and Ecclesia Martyrum the Church of the Martyrs Haeresi 68. in Epiphanius Secondly for that which is opposed to the Church of the Iewes for such a signification hath the word Catholicke in the inscription of Saint Iames his Epistle Lastly for the generall fellowship of all the children of God elected and adopted in Christ Iesu before the foundations of the world for none else can bee the members of the bodie of Christ Eph. 1.23 Colos 1.24 and in this signification it is taken in our Creed Now it would be knowne which of these significations is meant in the first question the first signification restraineth the word Catholicke to particular Churches it is not like that your Papist demaundeth whether you beleeue this or that Church in particular Againe the second opposeth the word Catholicke to the church of Iurie wheras your Papist includeth the church of Iurie before there was any other church any where planted in his question saying Doe you beléeue the catholique Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed c. The last signification is applied to the Saints of God predestinated to saluation 2. Tim. 2.19 which Church was neuer planted by the Apostles but by the eternall decree of God who onely knoweth who are his Againe I can hardly brooke that the Church is here said to be first planted by the Apostles for God had his Church euer from the beginning or that it hath remained euer since the Apostles planted it for it hath
it was lawfull by the law of God in cases specified in the same lawe that is Cap. 22.2 as I take it if the thiefe breake vp a house for that I finde specified in Exodus Howbeit Dauid in a case not specified giueth sentence of a thiefe that as the Lorde liueth he is the child of death that is that he should surely die and also that he should make a fourefolde or eightfolde restitution 2. Sam. 12.5.6 Arbangtaijm Arbangtaijm Now if the Hebrue word be taken for eightfold as no Romanist may deny Exod. 21.1 because the old catholicke translation hath so set it downe we see plainely that beside the sentence of death Cap. 6.31 which Dauid iustifieth with an oath the punishment specified in the law is doubled nay the incresse of the punishment appointed by the law is cleerely made good in the Prouerbs of Salomon where it is sayd that a thiefe being taken shall restore seuen fold or giue all the substance that he hath Rom. 13.4 and touching the christian Magistrate S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 5.20 that the wicked should feare the sword of vengeance which God hath put in his hand where feare is made the end of punishment as it is in Timothy where the same Apostle saith them that sinne rebuke openly that the rest may feare but if open rebuking did not strike such a feare as bridled sinners from corrupting their wayes then Timothy was to proceede to a more heauye censure that might worke this feare and so keepe downe sinne from multiplying in the Church and euen so ought the ciuill Magistrate to temper penall lawes in the ciuill state that euill disposed men may feare and neuer to take his lawes to be sufficiently penall but still to increase the terrour of them till feare to doe euill be sufficiently planted and this equitie doth the Lord himselfe retaine in his owne displeasure or indignation against sinne Psal 90.11 for so the great Prophet of God Moses teacheth vs in these words thereafter as thou art feared so is thy displeasure wherefore these two displeasure and feare are like the two buckets of a Well whereof the one commeth vp when the other goeth downe and the one is at the highest when the other is at the lowest briefely then to conclude as the Lord saw the punishment appointed in the law powerfull enough at that time and a long time after to worke feare in that Nation and State but yet was increased afterward by the Iewish Magistrates as they saw the disposition of the people to require it so the christian Magistrate finding by experience that the state and condition of his time and countrey is more desperate and lesse fearefull to robbe and steale then the Iewes were and so not to be ruled without a greater sharpnesse must needs whe this sworde and strike deeper then the Iewish Magistrate that he may be feared The Dialogue Sestio III. Tradition PAp I will a It is better to omit them then to speake of them so childishly as you haue done of the rest omit those other pointes of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture for breuities sake and passe vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause reseruing your answere to the rest vnto your better leasure and premeditation yet by the way let mée shew you the great difference betwéene the antiquitie and you in this point b VVe can ackdowledge no such traditions who receiued the traditions deliuered by the Apostles without writing and continued and obserued from hand to hand with no lesse reuerence then they did the written Scriptures Irenaeus saith of the heretickes of his time that when the Scriptures were alledged against them they would answere that the Scriptures could not be vnderstood of those that were ignorant of the traditions and that when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles and kept in the church by succession of Bishops were obiected they would answere that they had more vnderstanding then the Bishops or the Apostles themselues and that they alone had found out the trueth lib. 3. cap. 2. whereby you may see that the c They might better doe it then then you now Catholiks in the first age of the Church did alledge against the hereticks of that time Scripture and Traditions euen as the catholikes of this time do alledge the same against the heretickes of this time and herein onely consisteth the difference when Scriptures are alledged against the heretickes of this time they doe flie to the interpretation when the interpretation of the Bishops that is of the ancient catholicke Doctors is produced against them they answere in effect that they haue more vnderstanding then the Bishoppes and that they alone haue found the trueth when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles are d You may sooner alledge them then prooue that the Apostles deliuered them alledged they answere that the Apostles did leaue none such or if they did that they are not to bee receiued vnlesse they can bee prooued out of the canonicall Scriptures thus you appeale from traditions to Scripture when scripture is brought against you you appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of the fathers to the interpretation of Caluin or to the e This is but the imagination of your brayne imagination of your owne braine as to the supreame Iudge and primum mobile of all your religion but let vs procéede in shewing the great difference betwéene the fathers you herein Epiphanius O portet autem traditione vti non enim omnia a diuina Scriptura accipi possunt c. Wee ought to vse traditions beeause all things cannot bee learned out of the holy Scripture And a little after it followeth Tradiderunt itaque sancti Des Apostoli peccatum esse post dicretam virginitatem nubere lib. 2. to 2. haeres 61. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie The same father for the confutation of Aerius vseth the authoritie of the tradition of the Apostles haeres 75. and for the confutation of Seuerus hee voucheth a place out of the booke a Then the Apostles deliuered them written in a booke of the Apostles Constitutions haeres 45. Saint Augustine Many things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles b How can it be knowne whether this beleefe were right or wrong are beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles by tradition because they are obserued through the vniuersall world de baptis cont Donat lib. 2. fo 2. The same Author saith that the vniuersall Church doth obserue as a tradition of the fathers that when mention is made of the dead at the tim of the sacrifice that they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should bee offered for them de verb Apost serm 32. Saint Chrysostome citeth a place out of the
supposed to be deliuered and commended to vs by none but them These words though they seeme plaine haue some doubt which somewhat quaileth the force of them for it is not so easie to know whether ab ipsis should be referred to Apostolorum or posterorum howbeit I say further that the Traditions that Augustine speaks of are of the same nature with that one Tradition which he treats of in those Bookes against the Donatists namely the not rebaptizing of Heretickes which though it bee not expresly and explicately set downe in the writings of the Apostles yet Austine himselfe knew it might be soundly deduced out of the Scriptures and so hee testifieth almost in euerie Booke of that worke against the Donatists Haeres 75. The other place which he alleageth out of Austine sspeaks of a Tradition indeed but it was a Tradition of the Fathers not of the Apostles and euen so saith Epiphanius of the very same tradition Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta the Church doth this by a tradition receiued from the Fathers In Philip. homil 3. And therefore Chrysostome went too farre when he sayth Ab Apostolis sancitum est it is decreed by the Apostles but though there be places of good shew in Chrysostome yet your Papist could say no more but that hee citeth a place out of the Canons of the Apostles and yet quoteth neither Booke Chapter leafe nor Homily where a man may finde it in Chrysostomes workes howbeit if hee meane the Apostles Constitutions he hath his answeare if those Canons that be set downe in the first booke of Councels I say they neuer sawe any of the Apostles but were begotten in later times as it is most cleere in the Canons themselues Can. 8. Si quis Episcopus aut presbyter aut Diaconus sanctum paschae diemante vernale aequinoctium ex Iudaeis celebrauerit abijciatur If any either Bishop or Priest or Deacon shall according to the manner of the Iewes celebrate the feast of Easter before the vernall equinoctiall let him be deposed If this had been inacted by the Apostles it may bee wondred how there could be such adoe about the feast of Easter betweene the East and West Churches the whole matter being so cleerely decided aforehand by the Apostles themselues Againe when we read in another Canon Can. 30. that such Bishops as came by their Bishoprickes by secular Princes should be deposed it is easily seene that some of these Canons were not shot off till the time of Christian Magistrates for Infidels I trow vsed not to giue Bishopricks neither was there euer any so farre beside himselfe as to seeke a Bishopricke by their meanes if this will not content your Papist then let him shew me some reason why these Canons are not set downe as a part of the new Testament but marked by Pope Gelasius for apochryphall Apud Gratian distinct 15. C. Rom. Ecclesia and then I will consider whether it bee needfull to giue him another answere Thus haue I runne ouer the choisest testimonies that hee could finde in all the ancient Fathers and Doctors for if hee could alleage all as it were with one mouth to speake for his blinde Traditions as here he bragges it is to be thought that either he hath chosē the best or els that he hath no iudgment as for Saint Iohns Gospell beside the Maiestie of the stile let him read Epiphanius against the Alogians and there hee shall finde some better proofes for the confirmation and defence of it than the testimonie and consent of antiquitie Nowe touching his Dilemma which hee takes to be so intricate a verie childe may easily dissolue it for wee doe not hold that any thing can make a damned hereticke but the stiffe and peruerse holding and auouching of such doctrine as is contrarie or inconsonant to the holy Scriptures whereof the Fathers are not guiltie neither will any Papist at this day stand in defence of such Traditions as agree not with the word written The Dialogue Sectio IIII. PRo Your learning I confesse is farre beyond mine yet if you will giue mee leaue to presse you with your own argument I doubt not but I shall compell you to make such an answere as may serue vs both Pap. Take your course Pro. You shall finde in Epiphanius Haeres 73. that the Apostles did ordaine that the Wednesdaies should bee fasted through the whole yeere except in the feast of Pentecost and that sixe dayes before Easter no sustenance should be receiued but salt bread and water Now if you doe thinke that these Traditions were left by the Apostles why doe you not obserue them and why doe you seeke to lay a burden vpon vs which you do refuse to beare your selfe Pap. You must vnderstand that from the first planting of the Church many thinges taught and deliuered by the Apostles haue béen altered and taken away partly by the Apostles themselues and partly a Then were their Successors ouer-sawcie vnlesse they had warrant in the Scripture so to doe by their Successors as the alteration of times and euents haue giuen occasion to alter or take them away for the good of the Church as the communitie of all things practised and allowed by the Apostles the office of b They were men as well as widow womē Rom. 12.8 Widdowes instituted by the Apostles the prohibition of eating of blood decréed by the Apostles the antiquitie did fast vppon the Euens of solemne Festiuall dayes and watch in the nights as the name Vigilia yet remaining doth testifie but when an abuse was perceiued to growe therby the watching was taken away the fasting being continued practised in the Church at this day August ad frat in Eremo Serm. 25. We might giue like instances of the Sundaies in Lent which were not fasted in ancient times with the Wednesdayes fast by you alleaged out of Epiphanius and many such like too long to repeat Out of which we gather with the Bée that the Apostles did ordaine many things in the Church which it is lawfull for themseleus c How prooue you their Successors might doe it and their Successors to alter or take away when time and occasion should require it for the good of the Church but if wée shall gather hereof that because the Church vpon graue deliberation hath taken away some d VVhat bee those things things deliuered by the Apostles that therefore Iohn Caluin or any other priuate man may at his pleasure reiect other some we shal sucke poyson with the Spider if I should argue with you that because you doe reiect the Wednesdayes fast which was e VVe heare you say so a Tradition of the Apostles that therefore wee may reiect the obseruation of the Sunday it would séeme but a weake argument although you could be content to confesse that the obseruation of Sunday is grounded onely vppon the Tradition of the Church which to doe were lesse shame
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
Dialogue Sectio VII SAint Austine Pompous funerals great troups of mourners sumptuous monuments these doe bring some cōfort such as it is vnto the liuing but they are not auaileable vnto the dead but we ought a VVhat is it that puts the matter out of doubt let that be shewed and we will doubt no longer not to doubt but that the dead are relieued by the prayers of the holy Church by the holesome sacrifice and by almes which are giuen that it might please our Lord to deale more mercifully with them than their sinnes haue deserued This custome the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by Tradition a Austine saith a patribus not ab Apostolis from the Apostles that whereas at the time of the sacrifice commemoration is made of b All communicants and onely communicants are prayed for is this catholicke doctrine think you all soules departed in the communion of the body and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them de verb. Apost sermon 32. We ought c Nor wee ought not to say it vnlesse we could proue it not to deny that the soules of the dead are relieued by the deuotion of their liuing friends when as eyther the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them or almes giuen in the Church Enchir. ad Laurent prope fin When the Martyrs are mentioned at the altar of God they are not prayed for but d VVhat all confessors bishops popes and all all other which are dead which are there remembred are prayed for de verb. Apostol serm 17. When the sacrifice whether it bee of the altar or of almes déedes is offered for such as are dead e VVhy not before as well as after you may as well offer for the vnbaptized as for those that be valdé mali after Baptisme for those that be very good they be thanksgiuing for those which be not very euil they be propitiatory for those which be very euill although they profit not the dead yet are they some comfort vnto the liuing Dulcitij question quest 2. Reade his epistle ad Aurelium Episcopum and his Treatise de cura pro mortuis This was no doubt S. Austines f Or else you know not what faith is faith which he wrote taught and practised in his church and which was at that time generally receiued in the Latine Churches The Answere AVstine belike is plentifull in this question for we haue here foure seuerall places out of his workes which we will briefely runne ouer as they come In the first Austine is forced to turne his tale for whereas before where this place was alledged for Tradition prayer for the dead was no more but a Tradition of the fathers here Austine is intreated to say that it was deliuered by Tradition from the Apostles me thinks your Papist should know that our writers alleage this verie place of Austine to shew that this manner of praying was receiued of the Church long after the Apostles time Decad. 4. serm 10. as for example Bullinger in his Decades Illud dissimulare non possum saith he id quod isti traditionem Apostolorum appellant S. Augustinum nuncupare traditionem patrum ab ecclesia receptam nam sermone de verbis Apostoli 32. hoc à patribus inquit traditū vniuersa obseruat ecclesia c. This I cannot hide that that which they call a traditō of the Apostles Quest 1. Augustine calleth a tradition of the Fathers receiued by the Church see Serm. de verbis Apostoli 32. This saith he being deliuered by the Fathers doth the whole Church obserue And a litle after cōcludeth His significantius innuere videtur hunc ritū orandi pro defunctis haud dubie post longa internalla à temporibus Apostolorū ab ecclesia receptū esse By these words he seemeth more throughly to insinuate that this custome of praying for the dead was without all doubt receiued by the Church a long space after the Apostles times Wherefore this budgening and setting downe quid pro quo in so materiall a testimonie argueth a peruerse resolution rather to quench the fire of truth than the stubble and straw of our errours should be consumed But for answere I say that Austine himselfe doubted of that which here he saith we ought not to doubt of thus he writes in the questions of Dulcitius Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantùm arbitror à ratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of truth as I suppose Also in his Bookes De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. cap. 26 Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideo hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione venialia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forsitan verum est Whether thinges committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seek not to conuince because perhaps it is true and in his Enchiridion Cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it bee so done it is a question Now then if Austine himselfe doubted whether men be punished transitorily after this life I knowe your Papist wil giue vs leaue to doubt whether the dead be releeued by our prayers Moreouer it is here likewise to be obserued that no soule were praied or offered for or thought worthy to be remembred at the Altar but such as departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ Lib. 1. Contr. Iulian. lib. 1 de peccat merit remiss Concil 6. cap. 83. Carth. Con. 3. cap. 6. which includeth a generall beleefe of those times that none but Communicants could be saued and therefore Austine vrgeth it as hotly as any other tradition that the Eucharist as well as Baptisme was necessary to the saluation of all euen of new borne babes wherof it cōmeth that the bread wine was then thrust into the mouthes of Infants and dead carkasses both in the Greeke and Latine Churches Forasmuch then as this place of Austine teacheth two points of generall doctrine one that prayers Sacrifices and almes doe profite the dead the other that none can bee saued but Communicants and so prayers and sacrifices and doles to bee made for no other we thinke our selues no more bound to receiue the one at Austines hand than Papists thinke themselues bound to receiue the other Furthermore these
being as the Angels of God is not there spoken of onely in regard of not marrying but also in regard of not dying Cap. 20.36 as Saint Luke expoundeth it looke the Bible ouer and ouer and you shall neuer read that Angels refused man or womans fellowship because they were married or accepted of it because they were vnmarried and single and therefore these vehement speeches of the ancient Fathers especially Chrysostome may not be racked to the vttermost but charitably and friendly construed to the best Chrysostome here in his vehemencie goeth beyond measure in reprehending the Christians of his time in their lightnesse went beyond measure in vowing yet the East-Church then neuer exacted any such promise or vow but left euerie Christian man and woman to their owne libertie Socrat. histor lib. 5. cap. 21. Illustres presbyteri in Oriente Episcopi etiam modo ipsi volluerint nulla lege coacti ab vxoribus abstinent nam non pauci ipsorum dum Episcopatum gerunt etiam liberos ex vxore legitima procreant Famous Ministers in the east yea and Bishops also are not compelled by any law to abstaine from wiues for many of them euen when they are Bishops doe beget children of a lawfull wife Well but what 's that charitable construction you speake of I pray you let vs heare it and so an end Content Chrysostome saith that such marriage is worse than adulterie and Austine saith as much yet Austine expoundeth himselfe presently in the same place De bono viduit cap. 9. saying Non quod ipsae nuptiae vel talium damnandae iudicentur daemnatur propositi fraus damnatur fracta voti fides c. Not that the verie marriages euen of such men as ought to be iudged damnable their deceitfull purpose is damnable the breach of their vow is damnable And againe Damnantur tales non quia coniugalem fidem posterius inierunt sed quia continentiae primam fidem irritam faecerunt Such are condemned not because they did afterward enter into the state of mariage but because they brake their former vowe of continencie You see heere howe Austine expoundeth himselfe and therefore if wee charitably expound Chrysostome after the same manner we haue as good warrant as Austine can giue vs neuerthelesse to speake yet more precisely wee may not take the breach of faith to be so great a sinne as the giuing of it vnaduisedly beyond our strength if a man should vow to fast bread and water all the dayes of his life and afterward feeling his strength to faile should fall to better fare for the recouerie of the same there is no reasonable man that will find fault with him for breaking that yoake of bondage at the last but for thrusting his necke vnto it at the first Si quis castitatem promiserit seruare non poterit In Leuit. lib. 3 pronunciet peccatum suum saith Cirill in one place If any man haue promised continencie and cannot keepe it let him confesse his sinne But he saith againe in another place In Leuit. lib. 16. Oportet commetiri doctrinam pro virium qualitate huiusmodi qui non possunt capere sermonem de castitate concedere nuptias We must measure the doctrine according to mens strength and graunt marriage to such as cannot receiue that doctrine of continencie The Dialogue Sectio XXII EPiphanius Quae enim ad sacerdotium tradita sunt propter eminentiam celebrationis sactorum ea ad omnes aequaliter ferri putauerunt c. Those traditions which were deliuered peculiarly for the Clergie by reason of their a None more supereminent than the Apostles who were married men so was Peter himselfe supreminencie in the celebration of the diuine mysterie these heretickes would haue all men tyed vnto when they did heare that a Bishop ought to be vnreprooueable the husband of one wife and continent and likewise of Deacons and Priests for in truth since the comming of Christ the Doctrine b VVhere is it forbidden in all the new testament of the Gospell doth not admit into these offices any that haue married a second wife by reason of the excellent dignitie of priesthood and this holy c But either Churches obserued it not as appeareth in Tertullian De Monog church doth sincerely obserue yet doth not the church admit any into those Offices that is the husband but of one wife whose wife is yet liuing with him in the fellowship of marriage but him onely d Here Epiphanius is fasly translated that Epiphanius might not seeme vnreasonable that either was neuer married or that after the death of his first wife liueth vnmarried the church receiueth into the office of a Deacon Priest Bishop or Subdeacon which is especially obserued where the Ecclesiasticall Canons e There is smal sinceritie in such Canons are sincerely kept but thou wilt say vnto me that in many places Priests and Deacons doe liue in wedlocke but this is not according to the sinceritie of the Canons c. Thus haue I f You must search better or you will neuer finde it searched and as I hope made sensible the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen to your owne cause by fashioning vnto your selues such an imaginarie and mathematicall Church as all the g They acknowledged no other ancient Fathers and Doctors of the Church did neuer know nor acknowledge whereupon it will follow if that out of the Church as out of the Arke there bée no saluation that all these reuerend Fathers and Doctors were heretickes and are damned Spirits or else that you be heretickes your selues The Answere EPiphanius comes in now to tell his tale and our Papist bearing good will to traditions englisheth quae tradita sunt which were deliuered those traditions which were deliuered and yet when all comes to all those traditions are found in Paul to Timothie and Titus and they are as cleere against the necessitie of single life in a Bishop as can be desired Paul saith a Bishop must be the husband of no more but one wife at once Cap. 3.2 Tit. 1.5.6 for that 's his meaning in the first to Timothie Now in the Epistle to Titus he willeth Titus to ordaine Elders in euerie Citie such as hee found irreprooueable the husbands of one wife c. euidently teaching vs that marriage was then no barre against being a Bishop or a Minister of the Gospell and so saith Chrysostome Ita pretiosa res est vt cum ipsa etiam possit quis ad sanctum Episcopatus solium subuehi In Tit. Serm. 2 It is so precious a thing that a man with it may be aduanced to the seat of a Bishop Againe hee translates qui abvna continuit which hath contained from one him onely that was neuer married adding the word onely to the text and peruerting the meaning of Epiphanius who thought it commendable for a man to renounce his wife ob
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
verbo non script lib. 4 Cap. 8. concludes out of Paul that all thinges are not to be opened to all but some things must be d 1. Cor. 2.6 reserued perfectis sapientibus yet I doubt whether any such perfect wise men are to bee found in the world O you perfect wise men of Rome or of Rhemes or where else soeuer you nestle your selues in the world can your perfect wisedomes doe so much for vs as to set downe these Traditions in blacke and white in a perfect Catalogue that if any controuersie arise about this or that tradition your blacke and white Booke may resolue vs No no you cannot doe it and therefore you tell vs you may not doe it in the hearing of such simple fellowes as we be because Paul hath commaunded the contrarie Sapientiam loquimur inter perfectos is your warrant to hide these mysteries from such poore fooles as we be But wote you what this verie allegation shall be our warrant to pronounce that you are perfect wise heretickes such as Basilides Carpocrates Cerinthus Valentinus and Marcion looke in e Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. 24. lib. 3. cap. 2. Irenaeus and f Tertul. de prescript aduers haeret Tertullian and there you shall finde that I doe not be-lye you g Math. 10 27. our Sauiour willeth his Disciples to speake in the open light and to preach on the tops of the houses and himselfe confirmed this plaine and open dealing by his own practise h Ioh. 18.20 I spake openly to the world saith he I euer taught in the Synagogue and in the temple where the Iewes alwaies resort and in secret haue I sayd nothing These places be inanswerable and therefore some that be lesse wayward in this point than their fellowes as for example i Aduers Brent Petrus à Soto k In Catech cap. 5. Canisius l In Pan. lib. 4. cap. 100. in fine fabulae 6. Lindanus m Parte 3. Peresius and others reckon vp a iolly companie of traditions as namely the oblation of the sacrifice their annealing their praying to the dead and for the dead their primacie of Rome their hallowing of Fonts their fiue pretended Sacraments the Merits of Works their satisfactions their tallying vp of their sinnes to the Priest their worshipping of Images their set-fasting dayes their holy time of Lent their oblations for the dead their Peters being at Rome their real presence their halfe Cōmunion their reseruation and adoration their priuate masse their shrifts their satisfactiōs their indulgēces their purgatory their single life of Priests and such like of which they say like down-right Squiers that they are not grounded vpon the holy scripture and that by scripture they cannot bee defended and so saith this our Papist of most of them euen in n Sect. 5. this Dialogue and therfore howsoeuer they trouble vs with some few light-footed allegations of Scripture yet their owne consciences tell them that the Scriptures will faile them in all these seuerall questions Wouldest thou know then what remayneth to bee done Mary I will tell thee let all their rich Gluttons in hell or out of hell dead or aliue nay let the Diuell himselfe say and doe what they will or can yet we will and so doe thou follow the counsell of Abraham we will and so doe thou heare Moses and the Prophets as he teacheth vs and not such as will vs to repose our trust in vnwritten and vnsealed Traditions And here to passe ouer to the other point I promised to speake of let it please thee to remember who was the first founder of Traditions namely Papias a Chiliast whom o Hist eccles lib. 2. 15. lib. 3. 36. Eusebius calleth a publisher of Paradoxes and strange and fabulous doctrines an inconsiderate mistaker of the disputations of the Apostles and a man of small iudgement yet this is the man that layd the first stone of Peters being at Rome and so consequently of the Papall Primacie and where Peter a 1. Pet. 5.13 saith the Church that is at Babylon saluteth you this is the first that euer told vs that he means Rome a worthy foundation no doubt to build religion vpon and yet when he saith that Rome is Babylon he puts vs all in minde to b Apo. 18.2.4 come out of Rome the habitation of Diuels and the hold of all foule spirits and a cage of euerie vncleane and hatefull bird And here it is a world to see how the Papists labour to auoyd the force of this and such like Prophecies This say they must bee meant of the heathenish not of the Christian Babylon And I say againe it neither must nor can be so meant for who will yeeld that Saint Iohn should set downe that by way of Prophecie which was prophecied alreadie by c Cap. 7. Daniel long before either Saint Iohn was banished or Christ was incarnate Againe if happily Daniel be otherwise vnderstood why should the holy ghost speake of the Citie of Rome rather than Corinth Philippos Colosse Thessalonica great Cities of Greece or of Smyrna Pergamus Thyatira Sardis Philadelphia Laodicea to which d Cap. 1.4 the Reuelation is dedicated or the Citie of Ephesus where it is thought Saint Iohn was Bishop were not all these Cities as heathenish as Rome and better knowne to Saint Iohn so to be than Rome was What was Saint Iohn made a Prophet to speake against heathenish Rome which he neuer saw nor came neere to and no prophet at all to speake of the heathenishnes of so many Cities that hee had seen so often and was so well acquainted withall Moreouer if this might be yeelded vnto yet why should heathenish Rome be figured in the person of a gawdie scarlet coloured whorish woman and be counted the mother of all the filthinesse whoredomes and abhominations of the earth whereas indeed there was neuer a more manly and more continent gouernement in the world In the e Cap. 7. prophecie of Daniel the chiefe Kingdomes and Empires of the earth are described vnto vs by the names of Lions Beares and Leopards and stronge terrible and fearfull beasts with yron teeth nayles of brasse and shall we thinke that the most continent most iust most strong most terrible and couragious gouernment that euer was in the world should be compared by the holy ghost to a fine daintie Dame to a tender nice whore to a proud shamelesse whore that made open shew of the filthinesse of her Fornication No no this verie Booke of Saint Iohns Reuelation f Apoc 13 2. doth compare the Romane Emperor to a Leopard with Beares feet and a Lions mouth and the Papists themselues doe so vnderstand it And here obserue that beside the first beast which was like a Leopard there is another there spoken of which hauing two hornes like a lambe spake like a Dragon and did all the first beast could doe and more too
remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
with Iohn Caluine as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done I doubt not but that although he would not haue allowed of traditions yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word as hée hath done for the Sabbath for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon you will make any homely shift rather than you wil acknowledge the true i Tradition a fountaine in Poperie fountaine from whence it springeth and no maruell for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions which k If you may doe what you lift we cannot stand by the testimonie of all antiquitie were first deliuered by the Apostles and haue euer since béen obserued and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops and your heresie wil fall to the ground The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture is that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell Pro. It is manifest that in the infancy of the church the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time which in the Gospell were abolished and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ whereof abstayning from bloud is one and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem was vpon this occasion they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized because the Gentiles who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith had vtterly reiected their law whervpon much controuersie did arise between them the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised and to obserue the lawe of Moses and the Gentiles to the contrarie For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood by eating whereof as it seemeth the weake Iewes were greatly offended intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs. Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion eating of bloud which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell and to christians in the Gospell is now lawfull for vs to doe that the law prescribed to the Iewes concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie is still to be retained and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue is to be abolished that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified with many other such like instances too long to repeat when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures you shall finde n Else are you deceiued no other warrant for them than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie which is warrant sufficient for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place for the text saith onely There is a o The fornication had not been so haynous if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law fornication among you not once named among the heathen that a man should haue his fathers wife it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place that the Fornication here specified was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p All this is but vaine talke that helpes him not awhit for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated as it may be gathered out of the text for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths and therefore this Fornication was committed by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore and not as a wife as you imagine The Answere YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds which wee by our description of the Church haue giuen to our owne cause and therefore your description must bee had in memorie which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ sounding in the canonicall Scriptures so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ and so erre whereby the first wound is fully healed and if it should be graunted that the Church in generall cannot erre yet it followeth not that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation is therefore no member of the Church And so the second wound which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers Doctors is neither mortall nor sensible Now touching the first wound which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane it is here brought to certaine particular points which I will speake of in order The first is the obseruation of the Sunday which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture after this manner 1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacraments and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians 2. But the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purpose before mentioned Ergo The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Now where your Papist saith That if the Maior were true then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke
than one his answere hath no colour or shewe of reason for though euerie day in the weeke had beene so appointed yet had they not beene all Sabbaths vnlesse they had weekely continued as the first day did from weeke to weeke till Saint Iohns banishment at what time still wee finde that day kept holy and dedicated to the Lord as appeareth by the name which the holy Ghost giueth it in the Reuelation Cap. 1.13 Againe where he saith That the first Christians sold their possessions to the intent they might wholy bestow themselues vpon the seruice of God It would be knowne by what tradition or inspiration he found that out seeing the scriptures informe vs Act. 2.45 that their intent was to supply the necessitie of their poore brethren I trow the other Iewes that were to attend dayly vpon the morning and euening houres of praier and sacrifice did not vnload themselues of their possessions moreouer this lawe and sale of possessions though it were vsed at Ierusalem yet was it not in force in Galatia and Achaia and other Churches of the Gentiles 1. Cor. 16.2 Gal. 6 6 c. which had of their owne to put aside and lay vp for the poore And touching the Minor your Papist sayth that the Troiane Christians were assembled the first day of the wéeke to breake bread but not appointed so to doe by the prescription of the Apostles belike they came together by hap hazard or by their owne appointment howbeit hee that planted the Church of Troas cannot be so forgetfull as to leaue euery man separately to himselfe and not to appoint when they should assemble themselues for the continuall watring of that which was planted Act. 20.7 now to note what time that was Saint Luke names the first day of the weeke otherwise there is no reason why it should bee mentioned moreouer whereas Paul and his companie came to Troas the second day of the weeke and tarried there iust seuen dayes yet no day of assembly is registred but this one onely day and yet we may not think that Paul and his companie lay idle sixe daies together and forgat the worke of their calling yea but let vs admit saith your Papist that Paul was to depart on the Tuesday and that the Christians were assembled on the Monday c. Yea marry then should we be wise men but the Disciples of Troas met not to heare Paul preach for most of them had heard him preach before sixs dayes together but to breake bread which they would haue done though Paul had not beene amongst them and therefore this supposition is cloudie and riculous Touching the place to the Corinthians your Papist saith that Saint Paul doth not prescribe the first day of the week for prayer preaching and administration of Sacraments but for a laying aside for the poore according to euery mans deuotion and I graunt all this to bee true for those holy exercises were inioyned the churches of Galatia and Achaia when they were first planted and so was the collection for their owne poore for this collection for the Saimes at Ierusalem was extraordinarie but that the Apostle Paul would bee so troublesome as not to content himselfe that this collection should be made as their other collections were vpon their ordinarie meeting day but to appoint another day weeke by weeke to the hinderance of their seuerall callings is vtterly incredible nay see further I pray you how your learned Papist doubleth the power of the argument which he goeth about to weaken for when he asketh why the Apostle inioyneth this collection to be made vpon that day and answereth himselfe out of the text that there be no gatherings when I come and then asketh againe why the Apostle would haue no gatherings when he came and answereth with a no doubt because he would not haue such spirituall exercises as hee determined to bestow among them hindered by such collections what doth he else but confesse that the first day of the weeke was the day that Paul purposed to keepe holy at his comming and therefore would not haue that day bestowed vpon collections when he came but before his comming otherwise if hee had meant to bestow spirituall blessings so plentifully among them vpon any other day then gatheringes made vpon that day could not hinder him Yea but if these collections were hinderances to the spirituall exercises of the Sabbath then it followeth that the first day of the week wherin Paul would haue these collections made was not appointed to be the Christians Sabbath Well wrangled but howsoeuer this extraordinarie collection inioyned by Saint Paul might hinder Saint Paul himselfe that preached at Troas till midnight nay till the dawning of the next day Rom. 15.29 and vsed to come with abundance of the blessing of the Gospell of Christ yet their owne ordinarie ministerie being farre lesse plentifull could not be so easily hindered Apol. 2. and therefore wee read in Iustine Martyr that in his time beside preaching and administring the Sacraments collections were made vpon this verie day in Christian Churches One wrangle more remaineth against the force of this place to the Corinths namely that no generall assembly can be wrung out of it because the text saith Let euerie one put apart by himselfe and lay vp which argueth a priuat laying vp at home for a man cannot be sayd to lay vp that which he deliuereth to another Well wrangled againe but what call you this a gathering and is this kinde of laying vp at euerie mans owne home a sufficient dispatch of all gathering so as there should be no gathering at all when the Apostle should come himselfe amongst them Wherefore little wringing will serue to prooue that this laying vp is not meant of euerie mans owne purse or cupbord at home which might be done any other day as well as the first of the weeke but of some publique Chest or Boxe prouided for euerie mans free beneficence as euerie particular man himselfe found himselfe able and willing Now followeth the place of the Reuelation where Saint Iohn saith that he was in the spirite on the Lords day or Cap. 1.10 Psa 74.16 as the Rhems Testament translates it the Dommicall day Out of which we learne first that albeit all the dayes of the weeke are the Lords yet this day is so called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as being a more excellent or eminent day than the rest and so consequently a day consecrated to the seruice of the Lord. Secondly we learne that this day was famously knowne by the name of Lords day or Dominicall day in the Churches of Asia Reuel 1.4 to whome Saint Iohn dedicated his Reuelation for it had been to no purpose for him to tell them that hee was in the spirite on the Lords day if they knew not what day that was and how it was seuered by that name from the rest of the weeke and therefore as it was an
eminent day and chosen from amonge the other dayes of the weeke for the speciall seruice of the Lord so was it celebrated as an eminent day and so still kept in fresh memorie in the Churches of Asia now that this day was the first day of the weeke and no other it will bee easie to shew without shifts not onely because no other day was euer permanently kept holy but also because we may trace the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Dominica applied to this day as it were a Hare in the snow issuing out of this place of the Reuelation into all the Churches of Christendome Yea but saith your Papist Might not the first day of the wéeke be called the Lords day in regard of Christs Resurrection I say no for then it had been called the Rising day or the Resurrection day as the like dayes be namely Ascension Circumcision c. For to call it the Lords day in regard of Christs Resurrection is vtterly insensible When he demaundeth further Whether the Iewes Sabbath might not remaine or be abolished as other Ceremonies were Col. 2.16.16 without substituting another Sabbath in place thereof I answere that the Iewes Sabbath is taken away by Saint Paul so farre forth as it was ceremoniall but the morall parts thereof namely that one day in a weeke should be layd apart for spirituall meditations and exercises Exod. 23.12 and for the recreation of seruants and dum creatures was to be kept still inuiolable without any such substitution as he dreames of and so his other wranglements about bodily labour and resting the seuenth day not the first day of the weeke are cleane dasht Mat. 12.5.11 Mark 2.27 3.4 Luk. 13.14 c. Ioh. 5.8 c. 9.6.7.14 Iren. lib. 4. ca. 19. howbeit that which was the first day of the weeke is now become the seuenth day and bodily labour was neuer altogether vnlawfull no not in time of the lawe as appeareth cleerely in many places of the new Testament Now iudge you or any reasonable man else in the world whether our arguments or his answeres be weake and ridiculous as for his Tradition the more he vrgeth it the more hee confuteth himselfe and confirmeth our exposition of these three places for if the Apostles deliuered the obseruation of the Sabbath by Tradition wee may not thinke they deliuered it to some Churches and not to other some and if they deliuered it to all without exception then was it deliuered to them of Troas to the Galatians Corinthians and the Churches of Asia if to them then can it not bee denied but that these places of scripture which I haue now disputed of doe cleerely containe the practise and continuall obseruance of the Lords day as it was deliuered to these Churches by the Apostles I will not vouchsafe to answere your Papists vnpowdered talke of Iohn Caluin that worthy seruant of God and wire-whipper of popish marchants out of the house of God onely this I will say that if Iohn Caluin were not a greater mote in his eie then Popish traditions are in ours he would haue spared this idle vagarie The next point is eating blood Act. 15 2â—.29 which was forbidden in the first generall Councell the circumstance whereof you haue well set downe howbeit your Papist still calls for Scripture whereby it may be shewed him that after the decree made at Ierusalem by the Apostles it was lawfull for Christians to eate blood which hee would neuer doe if hee were learned and had read the Epistles of Saint Paul with any diligence wherefore you may stoppe his mouth for this point out of these places which I haue here quoted 1. Rom. 14.2 3 6 14 20 c. 1. Cor. 10.29 Coloss 2.16 Timothie 4.4 Tit. 1.15 Now followeth the third poynt which hangs vpon Tradition and not vpon Scripture Leui. 28. 20 Deut. 25.5 namely the forbidding of marriage within degrees of affinitie as if Leuiticus were no scripture yea but may he say Deuteronomy is scripture too as well as Leuiticus yet the brother is there commanded to raise vp seede to his brother which in Leuiticus is made vnlawfull now tell vs why you receiue the one and refuse the other here must you call for the helpe of Tradition or els lie in the dust Alas good Papist you are much deceiued for the law of Leuiticus is morall and naturally ingraffed in the hearts of all nations as appeareth euidently in the conclusion of this law in Leuiticus from the foure and twentieth verse to the end of the eighteenth Chapter for if this Law had beene peculiar for the Iewes there is no reason why the Canaaniticall nations should bee punished so seuerely as there it is described for the non obseruance of the same as for the other law of Deuteronomy it is an exception or dispensation in that particular case for the common weale of the Iewes wherein God had a speciall care of the first borne and his inheritance againe being repugnant to nature and to the explication thereof twice told in Leuiticus Cap. 18.16 cap. 20.21 it might not continue longer vnrepealed Touching the example of the incestuous Corinthian which you propound it will sticke better to your Papists ribbes then he is aware of for how can that fornication be vnheard of among the Gentiles which a man committeth with such a one as hee may lawfully marrie if then this Corinthian might lawfully marry his mother in law verily single copulation with her could not be so abominable as that the very Gentiles could not abide it should be once named amongst them and if single copulation of the mother and sonne in law was so much abhorred then was it vnlawfull they should marrie and so the law of God in Leuiticus is confirmed and so indeed your Papist gently confesseth in these words the law of the Corinths would permit no such mariage as may be gathered out of the text c. The fourth poynt followeth namely that it cannot bee shewed by scripture thas it is a greater offence in a Christian to haue many wiues then it was in Dauid howbeit we read in Scripture that God gaue him his masters wiues into his bosome 2. Sam. 12.8 Rom. 4.15 Nulla lege prohibebatur August contr Faust lib. 22. cap. 47. Matth. 19.4 c. 1. Cor. 7.2 c. Eph. 5.31 if there be no transgression where there is no law as Paul saith then verily Polygamy being neither cleerely forbidden by any law nor reprehended by any Prophet from the beginning of the world to the comming of Christ it must follow that it was eyther no transgression at all in the fathers or a farre lesse transgression then it is in Christians whom Christ Iesus himselfe and the holy Apostle Saint Paul hath so manifestly instructed that nothing can be more euident Now touching the fift and last point of punishing theft with death it is confessed by your Papist that
mortuorum de vnigeniti in carne aduentu de sancto testamento veteri ac nouo in summa de alijs constitutionibus perfectae salutis I will write vnto you concerning the faith seeing you and our brethren require of vs the things which concerne your saluation out of the holy scripture a firme foundation of faith concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Spirite and all the rest of the matter of our saluation in Christ to wit of the resurrection of the dead of the comming of the onely begotten in the flesh of the holy Testament both old and new and in briefe of other constitutions pertaining to the perfection of saluation Now we may consider with lesse danger of the place here alleaged wherein that Epiphanius be not misunderstood we must consider that these words Omnia a diuina scriptura accipi non possunt Wee ought to vse traditions because all things cannot be learned out of the holy Scripture must be restrained to the matter in hand for Epiphanius meaneth that the bare letter of this or that scripture doth not afford sufficient helpes to vnderstand it selfe but requireth other meanes for that purpose for thus stand the words Diuina verba speculatione indigent sensu ad cognoscendam vniuscuiusque propositi argumenti vim ac facultatem oportet traditione vti non enim omnia à diuina scriptura accipi possunt c. The words of God haue need of speculation and sense to know the force and power of euerie argument propounded we must also vse tradition because al things cannot be learned out of the holy Scriptures Now by these means he expoundeth a place of Paul to the Corinthians 1. Cor. 7.28 If a Virgine marrie she sinneth not this place saith he is meant of such as had a long time continued Virgines because none in that paucitie of Christians did offer to marrie them and therefore Paul permitteth they should marrie with Iewes and Infidels you haue heard his speculation yea but why may not this place of Paul be meant simply of all Virgines mariageable without exception Epiphanius answereth Tradiderunt sancti Dei Apostoli peccatum esse post decretam virginitatem ad nuptias conuerti The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie You haue heard his Tradition but like speculation like Tradition For it is incredible that the Christians of Corinth had not as many sonnes and daughters as many males as females more incredible that there was such a paucitie of Christians in so populous a Church as the Church of Corinth 2. Cor. 6.14 and most incredible of all that Paul should permit that in his first Epistle which he forbad in his second and so his Speculation faileth him Moreouer it is a fond conceit to think that there were Votaries in Pauls time or that Paul in the seuenth of the first to the Corinths spake not generally of all Virgines but of such as could not get Christian husbands Propter penuriam charitatis so his Tradition is come to nothing No no if there had beene such Nuns at Corinth the Apostle being requested to set downe his iudgment for the direction of Virgins could not possibly forget that principall kinde of Virgines that had most need of direction speak only of some other meaner regard and that in such generall termes without any exception or mention of votall Virgines More ouer Epiphanius fortifieth his tradition out of Paul who saith Iuniores viduas reijce postquā enim lasciuierunt contra Christum nubere volunt habentes iudicuum quod primam fidem reiecerunt The younger widowes refuse for when they haue begun to waxe wanton against Christ they will marrie hauing damnation because they haue reiected the first faith Concluding therof that Virgins are much more to bee blamed than Widowes if they turne back from their purpose of continencie wherfore it is not an vnwritten veritie that Epiphanius obtrudeth vpon vs but a conclusion drawne out of the first to Timothie Cap. 5.11 c. howbeit S. Paul reiecting yong widows frō vowing or promising cōtinencie doth by the same reason reiect yong virgins which be in as great danger of breaking their faith and promise as young widowes and so still we finde that no such votaries were allowed to snare themselues with vowes and religious promises in Pauls time but left free to vse the remedie of marriage according to the ordinance of God But to make short worke whether Epiphanius here speake of written or vnwritten verities yet hee concludeth in the end that it is better euen for Votaries openly to marrie according to the law than to be wounded dayly by the secret darts of concupiscence then which nothing can be more contrarie to the practise and principles of Poperie Touching the confutation of Aerius it stands vpon a tradition of fasting vpon Wednesdaies and Fridayes till night and feeding vpon breed water and salt sixe dayes before Easter which is quite dead long agoe Moreouer Epiphanius opposeth his traditions to matter of faith saying Ecclesia acceptam à patribus veram fidem vsque huc continet itemque traditiones The Church doth still retaine the true faith receceiued from the Fathers and also their Traditions And therefore if Aerius had offended against nothing but Traditions hee had beene sound in the Faith notwithstanding and so no hereticke As for the Booke of the Apostles Constitutions either Epiphanius lost it out of his bosome or it is that which is extant vnder the name of Clemens and condemned longe agoe in the sixt generall Councell at Constantinople Can. 2. yet are these Constitutions allowed for good scripture in the last Canon of the Apostles Lib. 2. cap. 59 Lib. 6. cap. 14 Lib. 2. cap. 63 Lib. 5. cap. 16 which the verie Papists themselues are ashamed of And good reason for they say in one place that Iames the brother of our Lord was not an Apostle and in another place that hee was not an Apostle they say also that the people ought to come together euerie day morning and euening which is no where obserued they say that Iudas was absent when Christ celebrated his last supper which is contrary to the scripture to bee short these Constitutions are so full of errours and falshoods that no honest Christian will father them vppon the Apostles or allowe them for canonicall Scripture The place of Austine which your Papist as a blind man casts his staffe at is in the seuenth Chapter of the second Booke De baptismo contra Donatistas and the wordes bee these Multa non inueniuntur in literis Apostolorū neque in Cōciliis postererū tamē quia custodiuntur per vniuersam ecclesiam non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur Many things are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the Councels of later time yet because they are kept by the whole Church they are
Then were they good arguments verie same arguments for the maintenance of his Heresie that the Protestants Puritanes of this time do for confutation whereof this ancient Father vseth none other c His confutation is so much the worse argument but the Tradition and continuall practise of the Church I am sure although you doe d VVho told you so exclude out of your Church Epiphanius and all other ancient Fathers yet Aerius shall be receiued and entertained as an ancient and principall pillar thereof but be ye well aduised before you put him into your Kalender for he was also an e That 's not so soone prooued for Austine followed Epiphanius the first and onely author of it Arian hereticke as Saint Augustine recordeth but whatsoeuer he holdeth else it sufficeth if he iumpe with you in any thing against the Catholicke The Answere HEere comes in Epiphanius and the hereticke Aerius once againe to walke a turne or two vpon the stage howbeit it may well be doubted by what authoritie Aerius was dubbed an hereticke I am sure Mich. Medina a stout Papist saith De Sacr. homi orig conti lib. 1. cap. 5. that Ierom Ambrose Austine Sedutius Primasius Chrysostome Theodoret Aecumenius and Theophilact were of his opinion in the equalitie of ministers Againe Aerius was enemy to Eustathius an Arian and therfore if he had any desire to remooue him out of his Bishopricke Haeres 75. and to sit himselfe in his roome as Epiphanius reporteth there is no likelihood that hee would be an Arian himselfe but keepe himselfe cleere to accuse and condemne Eustathius of so capitall an heresie Againe the opinion of fasting vpon Sunday and condemning ordinary and set fasting dayes Lib. 2. cap. 33. is attributed to Eustathius in Socrates storie where wee read also that hee was twise condemned once in the councell of Caesarea Cappadociae by his owne father Eueanius and againe the second time in the Councell of Gangra in Paph agonia wherefore I perswade my selfe that Epiphanius mistooke iust reprehension for emulation and charged Aerius with the faults of Eustathius a double condemned hereticke and as very a Papist as euer Aerius was a Puritane Nuptias fieri prohibuit à cibis abstinendum docuit nonnullos qui nuptias contraxerant à connubio segregauit seruos simulatione pietatis dominis abstraxit benedictionem communionem presbyteri habentis vxorem tanquam scelus declinandum praecepit c. He forbad marriage taught to abstaine from meates some that had bene married he separated he drew seruants from their masters vnder colour of pietie he commanded to shunne that blessing and communion of an Elder that had a wife of an hainous wickednesse Call you not this papistrie call it what you will I am sure it is so and it is heresie too Concil Gangr by your leaue if a nathemasit pronounced by a lawfull Councell be sufficient to make an heresie shew me the like euidence against Aerius and I will confesse him to be an hereticke otherwise I must craue leaue to say of Epiphanius as Austine doth of Philastrius In praesat libri de haeres ad quod Multas assertiones inter haereses numerauit quae haereses non sunt Many assertions he counted for heresies which were not heresies Nay I will be bold to say further Multas assertiones haereses non numerauit quae haereses sunt Many assertions he counted not heresies which are heresies For he hath wittingly concealed the assertions of Eustathius 1. Tim. 4.1.3 which Paul cals doctrines of deuils Now to the Tradition which Epiphanius bringeth for praier for the dead I say in a word it is accepta à patribus i Receiued frō the Fathers not from the Apostles not ab Apostolis and therefore it hath no further credit then man can giue it yet notwithstanding prayer was then made not after the Popish fashion to ease the dead of the paines and torments of purgatorie but to perswade the liuing that they are not vanished into nothing but liue and haue their being with the Lord which knockes out the braines of purgatorie for if men ought to beleeue that the dead for whom prayer is made doe viuere apud dominum Epiph. ibidem haeres 75. then may we not thinke that they doe viuere apud inferos in purgatorie but Epiphanius helps you with better store of reasons you heard the first namely quod credant mortuos esse viuere apud dominum That they beleeue that the dead are aliue with the Lord. The second Quod spes sit orantibus profratribus velut qui in peregrinatione sint That there is hope to them which pray for their brethren as to them which want in trauailing The third Quo id quod perfectius est significetur To the end that which is more perfect may be signified The fourth Vt Dominum Iesum Christum ab hominum ordine separent that they may separate the Lord Iesus from the order and state of bare men The fifth Vt adorationem domino praestent That they may yeeld adoration to the Lord. The sixt and last he sets downe in the words wee haue in hand Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta The Church doth this by tradition receiued from the fathers Howbeit the fathers tradition was no more but memoriam facite keepe a memory Lib. 1. epist 9. et lib. 3. epist 3. As we may see euidently in Cyprian whereunto was added by further curiositie Misericordiam Dei implorate Begge mercy of God And at length Masses and Indulgences and oblations and satisfactions and a whole flood of pickepurse inuentiōs yea but may it be said memoriam facite is little worth without misericordiam implorate yes by your leaue for so the Church thought good to animate and incourage the liuing to stand constant in persecution and not to reuolt for feare from Christian profession and touching the crauing of mercy for sinners departed which the Church vsed to doe most were in Epiphanius time you heard before all the reasons that Epiphanius could yeeld and if you looke for more or better you must search else where for Epiphanius cannot helpe you but hurt you for when he saith preces prosunt etsi totam culpam non abscindant prayers profit though they cut not off the whole fault He marres the fashion of purgatory where sinnes are not forgiuen but punished to be short if you peruse the words of Aerius you shall soone find that he neuer heard of purgatorian doctrine for when he obiecteth that if prayer profite the dead men need not liue godly or doe any good thing in their life time but purchase friends to pray that their incurable sinnes may bee layd to their charge it is most cleere hee knew not that prayer is not auaileable where there is no former merite and that veniall not mortall or incurable sinnes are purged by the suffrages of the liuing The
it be presently bestowed on the poore so shall men not seeme to forsake the memories of their friends which might be occasion of no small griefe of heart and that which is celebrated in the Church shall be godlily and honestly celebrated It is not very easie to gesse what these oblations were for the sacrament cannot be sumptuous vnlesse we met some precious stone of great value in the Communion Cup as Cleopatra did in a cup of Ippocras other oblations cannot be sold nor yet giuen to euery one that asketh them if it be said that the sacrament might be called sumptuous not in it selfe but in regard of the pompe and costly braueries of funerals it is easily seene that Austine heere speakes not of funerals but memorials which as they were sumptuous so were they celebrated with feasting and ioy not with mournefull calling vpon God for a gaole deliuerie and therefore we may better vnderstand this same aliquid adiunare somewhat to helpe of helping the liuing who otherwise might conceiue sorrow of heart or of the inflaming of mens deuotion to zeale and feruencie of prayer when they behold the representation of the death of Christ in the reuerend mysteries then of offering Christ in sacrifice to God his father for the reliefe of the dead Vero aliquid adiuuare credendum est We might belieue that they doe indeed helpe somewhat saith Augustine but that euery one that celebrated the memory of his friend should beleeue that his friends soule was in purgatorie crauing yeerely reliefe at his hands that saith not Austine it may be his friends soule was in heauen it may be it was in hell it may be it was deliuered out of purgatorie the last yeere or the yeere before and therefore it may be that oblations could not helpe him and so consequently that Austines credendum in this case is no whit better then an ignorandum howbeit you may tell your papist that this place is not for his profite for if his massing soule Priest may not sell his oblations and prayers but giue them freely and cheerefully to all that aske tht poore man will hardly be able to keepe a Concubine Austine saw that veniale peccatum veniall sinne was like to prooue venale venall or set to sale and therefore he saith prebeantur neque vendantur let them be giuen not sold But now no money no masse no penny no pater noster Wherefore to conclude all in a word if this had bene Austines faith he would not haue taught it so loosely and vntowardlie yet howsoeuer he teacheth it as faith or opinion or custome or what else soeuer the faith of one moderne sacrifice Sacrificatorians is of another Edition The Dialogue Sectio VIII SAint Ambrose who a This Ambrose neuer saw S. Austine nor S. Austine him conuerted Saint Austine to the faith die likewise hold and practise the same doctrine for thus he prayeth before the celebration of the diuine mysteries Let the inuisible forme of the Holy Ghost descend to teach me thine vnworthie Priest reuerently to handle so high a mysterie that thou mayest mercifully receiue at my hands this sacrifice to the helpe both of quicke and dead Precatio prima praeparans ad b The word Missa is not to be found in all Ambrose missam The Answere BElike Ambrose and Austine must agree in all points because the one conuerted the other otherwise this tale of Austines conuersion is told out of season but by your leaue if this counterfect prayer be construed after the Popish fashion I doubt whether Austine will giue it allowance Howbeit supposing this Iacke Strawe to be the right Ambrose I answere that he speakes not here of this mysterie as it is a sacrament putting vs in mind of God for then the vertue of it could not depend vpon the worthinesse the reuerent or irreuerent handling of the Priest but as it is a sacrifice putting God in mind of vs now if Ambrose purposed to offer vp the very body and blood of the sonne of God in sacrifice to his father the absurdity of receiuing it mercifully in regard of his reuerent handling remaineth still for the reall body and blood of Christ had bene acceptable to God of it selfe without helpe of Ambroses holinesse Contr. epist Par. lib. 2. cap. 8. Austine could not abide that Parmenian should say that the Bishop is mediatour betweene God and the people and auoucheth that if Saint Iohn had taken so much vpon him euery good faithfull Christian would haue taken him for Antichrist rather then the Apostle of Christ and therefore if Ambrose had prayed that God would mercifully receiue the body and blood of his sonne at his hands making himselfe mediatour betweene the sonne of God and his father as Popish Priests venter to doe at this day in the Church of Rome I may well thinke Austine notwithstanding his conuersion would haue detested it Lib. 4. part 2. Cum sacerdos orauerit prohostia transubstātianda eamque transubstantiatā patri obtulerit orat pro ipsius acceptatione Whē the Priest praieth for transubstantiating of the hoste and doth offer it being transubstantiated to the father he prayeth for the acceptation of it Thus saith Durand and the Priest in the Masse desireth God to looke Propitio ac sereno vultu propitiously and cheerefully vpon the body and blood of Christ his sonne and to receiue the same as once he receiued the sacrifice of Abel c. This is a presumptuous and a desperate blasphemy yet must we either make Ambrose guilty of it in this praier or else see him discharged of transubstantiation There is a full discourse in Irenaeus where it is prooued out of the Scriptures Lib. 4. cap. 34. that God euer accepted him that offered better than the offering and that no oblation is pleasing vnto God when hee that offereth it doth not please him better and therefore it is sayd in Genesis Cap. 4.4.5 that the Lord had respect vnto Abel and his offering but vnto Cain and his offering he had no regard and if the offering of a wicked man were acceptable to God it had bene out of season to charge that man to goe away from the Altar to be reconciled with his brother Matth. 5.23 before he presume to offer his oblation so long as a man choseth his owne wayes and inwardly delighteth in abhominations Esa 66.23 c. his killing of a bullocke is as if he slew a man his sacrificing a sheepe as if he cut off a dogs necke his offering an oblation as if he offered swines flesh and such a mans offering incense to God is as if he blessed an idoll It commeth to passe often among men that the wicked is accepted for his gift and so absolued because the iudge is either needy or couetous but God hath no neede of our sacrifices he neither eats the flesh of Buls nor drinkes the blood of Goats Psal 50.30 he neither eats bread nor drinkes wine
labours This place is cleere yet Bellarmine hath scraped together two answeres one out of Anselmus who saith that Saint Iohn speakes of the time that followeth the last iudgement which is absurd for then he would haue sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from thence-forth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from hence-forth his other answere out of Haimo and Richardus De S. Victore restraines the comfort of this heauenly voice to Martyrs and perfect men which is a male part impounding of the grace of God common to all that keepe the commaundements of God and liue and die in the faith of Iesus it will trouble Bellarmine and Victor let father Haimo help them to perswade wise men that Meri in Domino to die in the Lord is more proper to perfect men than Nubere in Domino 1. Cor. 7.39 to marry in the Lord to perfect women howbeit these two answeres play at hard-head and beat out one anothers braines Anselmus cannot abide we should allow the one and Haimo and Victor wil be starke angrie with vs if wee allowe the other and therefore to please both sides it will be our best way to allowe neither But to proceede Chrysostome makes another petition for the dead that they may finde the Iudge fauourable wherin we must consider two things the sentence of the Iudge and the Execution The sentence is either particular presently after death Eccles 11.26 or generall at the last day in the clouds of heauen touching the former Chrysostomes petition for fauour comes too late and touching the other it must needs bee either venite benedicti patris mei come ye blessed of my father or else ite maledicti in ignem aeternum Math. 25.34.41 goe ye cursed into hell fire no praying or sacrificing can either reuoke or alter this sentence Ego Iehoua non mutor I am the Lord Malac. 3.6 Genes 18.25 and change not and as the Lord is immutable so his sentence both first and last is iust Shall not the Iudge of the world doe right saith Abraham as if he should say it is impossible it should be otherwise wherefore if any fauour bee to be found it must be in the execution Psal 103.20 Now the Executioners being either Angels or Diuels Angels must doe the will of God as it is enioyned them at the Diuels hands no fauour can bee looked for nowe what 's next verily it is hard to tell vnlesse we call vpon God to rectifie that which is right to mend that which is not amisse to vndoe that which is done well and to mitigate that punishment which is no sharper than it ought to be it may well stand with the folly of mans affections to make such prayers but it will hardly stand with the wisedome and iustice of God to giue them the hearing Suffragia aut ad hoc prosunt vt plena sit remissio Enchirid. cap. 110. aut tolerabilior damnatio saith Austine Suffrages are profitable to make either remission of sinnes more perfect or damnation more tollerable but how remission or mitigation of an absolute and a iust sentence damnatorie Ad supplicium tantum tale To punishment so great and of such qualitie being vnder execution can possibly stand with Ego Iehoua non mutor in Malachy it passeth the reach of all the wit learning I haue to determine Wherfore well might Chrysostome say Nouerunt the Apostles knew what profite redounded to the dead by commemoration in the dreadfull mysteries for hee himselfe knew not how the prayers of Priest and people could profite the dead much lesse how annuall commemorations could doe it And here let it bee considered how vntowardly Chrysostome disputeth the Apostles knew that commemoration of the dead at the altar was profitable vnto them Ergo the Apostles ordained it should be so I will not stand vpon the sequele let that goe for good but how knewe Chrysostome what the Apostles knew who reuealed their counsell vnto him if any bodie told him what reason had he to beleeue it if no bodie told him what reason had he to say it and therefore he that loues Chrysostome best must needs confesse that his antecedent is more doubtfull than his conclusion but when hee reasoneth further that the people and Priest stretching out their handes to heauen must needs appease Gods wrath Ergo commemoration of the dead is profitable hee is much ouer-seene for commemoration of the dead and praying fot the dead are not the same as the Papists themselues knowe and confesse De purg lib. 1. cap. 5. Epiphanius nusquam dicit orari pro sanctis sed memoriam fieri saith Bellarmine Epiphanius neuer saith we pray for the dead but hold a memorie of them And therefore herein Chrysostome is forsaken of all his friends both Papists and Protestants howbeit the growing of this vnluckie twigge from profiting the quicke to profiting the dead from commemorating at the altar to praying offering and sacrificing at the altar from thankesgiuing to intreating c. is here made knowne vnto vs so as now it is become a tree of so great spread that a number of vncleane birdes build their nests in the braunches of it The Dialogue Sectio X. TErtullian a This ancien father was a Montanist and a Chiliaste as it appeareth by this place This ancient father reasoning with a woman whose husband was dead concerning the bond that did still remaine betwéene her and her dead husband concludeth thus Let her pray for his soule let her intreat that he may be refreshed b VVhat bond see Rom. 7.2 He puts out and in and misordereth Tertullians words in the meane time and that at the resurrection she may haue the fruition of his company these things if she do not it may be truely said of her that she hath forsaken him infinite are the places which might be alledged to this purpose but this may suffice to prooue that this was the beléefe and practise of the c Ierome saith that Tertullian was not homo ecclesiae a man of the church Church in Tertullians time who liued néere vnto the Apostles that in Epiphanius Ambrose Austine Chrysostomes d All these were of one time and onely Chrysostome fathereth this Tradition vpon the Apostles it was holden for a Tradition left by the Apostles and generally beléeued and practised through e That which he called the Latine church is here called Vniuersall c. Vide Sect. 7. the vniuersall Church and that it hath euer since bin so beléeued and practised through the world vntill the bore affirmation of Luther that there was no such Tradition left by the Apostles preuailed more with you than the authoritie of all these ancient fathers and the long continued practise of the vniuersall Church to the contrary The Answere YOur Papist heere alleadgeth Tertullian and for very shame concealeth the place where this testimonie is to be found if he had but named Tertullians booke
betwéen vs I desire to know of you whether that sacrifice which was offered was the sacrifice of the Masse which implyeth transubstantiation the sacrifice of the Protestats communion the sacrifice of prayer or the sacrifice of thankesgiuing for if it was none of the thrée last it must néedes bee the sacrifice of the Masse and so is transubstantiation prooued Pro. e And why not the Protestants communion It might bee either prayer or thankesgiuing for both are often times in the Scriptures called by the name of a Sacrifice Pap. Thus doe I prooue that it was neither and first that it was not prayer it is manifest by the place of S. Austine before cyted De verb. Apost Serm. 32. where he maketh mention of the prayers that the Church made for the dead and of the Sacrifice which it vsed to offer for them as of two distinct things for there he saith that at the time of the Sacrifice prayers were made for the dead that the sacrifice was also offered for them That it was not the Sacrifice of thankesgiuing it appeareth likewise by the same Doctor by the place by me aboue cited out of his Enchiridion where he sayth Neque negandum est defunctorum animas pietate suorum viuentium relouari cum pro eis sacrificiū redemptoris offertur c. Neither must we denie that the soules of the dead are releeued by the charitie of their liuing friends when as the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them the sacrifice therefore which the Church did offer was the sacrifice of our redéemer and it was offered that the dead might be releeued how can you call the sacrifice of thankesgiuing the sacrifice of our redéemer or how can you say that the church did offer the sacrifice of thankesgiuing that the soules of the dead might be reléeued for thankesgiuing is for benefits receiued and not for benefits to be receiued it remaineth therfore that this sacrifice of the church was f This is a worthy disputer that concludes for our communion as well as his owne Masse either the Protestants communion or else that it was the sacrifice of the Masse and consequently that the bodie of Christ is really in the Sacrament The Answere THe knot he talks of was so loosely tyed that it was no masterie to vndoe it but now we shall haue such an argument as shall prooue vnto vs the consent of all ancient Fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church for transubstantiatiō these be great words yet notwithstanding when he grounds this doughty argument vpon Austine Ambrose and Tertullian concluding thereof that in all these ages the church did offer a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead I can take them for no better than the words of a man beside himselfe he knew well inough that Ambrose and Austine were both of an age for he hath told vs once or twise that the one conuerted the other and if he knew not that the annuall offerings of a widow woman vpon the day of her husbands death enioyned her by Tertullian in these wordes Et offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius was not the sacrifice of the Masse I must needes thinke his head was out of temper if these three Fathers had written in three seuerall ages it had been the least number that the word all could bee spoken of Aristot de caelo lib. 1. cap. 1. for we call two both and not all and therefore by what wit or common sense he could say all these ages of one age or two at the most if Tertullian had not been mistaken I cannot possibly imagine but for answere to these Fathers Contr. Collyr haeres 79. Epiphanius saith truely Deo abaeterno nullatenus mulier sacrificauit A woman did neuer in any case offer any sacrifice to God And againe Nusquam mulier sacrificauit aut sacerdotio functa est A woman neuer sacrificed nor exercised the priestly office Dialog cum Tryphon Whereunto adde out of Iustine Martyr that God receiueth no sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but onely of his Priests whereof it followeth that the annuall oblation that Tertullian speakes of was no sacrifice vnlesse you will say Epiph. haeres 49. that Tertullian was a Priscillianist or Artotyrite that allowed of Romane Priests and women Bishops to offer bread and cheese in Sacrifice to the Lord. And touching Ambrose I shewed before that hee offered not the verie bodie of Christ which is receiued of merite not of mercie how irreuerently soeuer it be handled but celebrated the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ ioyned with prayer and thankesgiuing so nowe Austine is left alone of whome I may say as our Papist taught me a while agoe namely that it is not probable that Saint Ambrose was a Protestant in this opinion and Saint Austine whome hee conuerted to the Christian faith a Papist howbeit you shall bee further instructed out of Lumbard Lib. 4. dist 12 that the ancient Fathers doe not vse the word Sacrifice and immolation in proper sense these be his words Vocatur sacrificium oblatio quia memoria est representatio veri sacrificij sanctae oblationis factae in Ara crucis It is called a sacrifice and an offering because it is a remembrance and representation of the true sacrifice and holy offering made vpon the altar of the crosse And a little after Quotidié immolatur in sacramento Hierar cap. 3. quia in Sacramento recordatio fit illius quod factum est semel We sacrifice dayly in the Sacrament because in the Sacrament there is a remēbrance of that which was once done or of that Sacrifice which was once made Dyenis in his Hierarchy calleth it De demonst si 1. cap. 10. Ad Hebr. hom 17. De ciuit Dei lib. 20. cap. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a figuratiue sacrifice and Eusebius memoriam magni sacrificij a remembrance of the great sacrifice and Chrysostome recordationem sacrificij a remembrance of the sacrifice and Austine himselfe signum representationem sacrificij a signe of representation of the sacrifice wherefore we can agree with your papist no farther in this point than to confesse that the ancient fathers called the sacrifice of the body blood of Christ improperly a sacrifice because it is a memorial and representation of that one all sufficient vniterable euerlasting sacrifice which our Sauiour the last true Priest that euer liued or shall liue vpon the earth offered to God vpon the Altar of the crosse and so the ground whereupon this popish argument is builded is sandy and deceitfull Now let me shew you that prayers and supplications and prayse and thankesgiuing are the onely true sacrifices of the new testament and that the ancient Christians of the Primitiue Church neuer knew or hard of any other to this purpose therefore you must remember that God receiueth no sacrifice but at the hands of a Priest for so we learned a
continentiam for continencie and tels vs elsewhere that Priests were chosen Here. 61. cont Apost in compend doctr eccles ex his qui continent à proprijs vxoribus aut ab vnis nuptijs viduitatem seruantibus Of these which contained from their owne wiues or after their first wiues were dead liued vnmarried Whereby we learne that he speakes here of such as kept their bodies cleere from the vse of their wiues which Saint Paul forbids 1. Cor. 7 3 c. not of such as were neuer married as our Papist dreameth But what be these Canons that Epiphanius talks of where may a man finde them what Councell decreed them what words are they conceiued in I feare me when all is done they will prooue Apochryphall agreed vpon in some Prouinces where the chiefe Bishops had beene wanton and written loue Sonnets in their youth as one Heliodorus did who to prooue himselfe a new man in his age caused such Canons to be made against the Ministers of Thessalia The like may be thought of such Bishops as were chosen from among such as led vitam solitariam a solitarie life Socrat eccles hyst lib. 5 cap. 21. Epiphan in Comp doct eccles as the maner was in Epiphanius time who being magnified in the world for their chastitie thought good to impose it as a law vpon their brethren Againe it might well be that these Canons being borne and bred among heretickes such as the Montanists Catharans Apostolickes and such like were layd hold vpon by Catholicke Bishops with some mitigation thinking it no small disgrace that heretickes should goe beyond them in a vertue then so highly esteemed in the world howsoeuer it was Sorom lib. 6 23. Epiph her 26 yet Epiphanius being brought vp solitarily among the Monkes of Aegypt and Palestine and hauing escaped the filthy enticements of the Guostickes to his great prayse it is no maruaile though hee were somewhat hardly conceited of the marriage of Priests and talke flyingly of I wote not what apochryphall Canons whose authors knew them not nor they their authors Wherefore till these hidden Canons be brought to light it is fit other knowne Canons should take place In the Canons of the Apostles thus it is written Episcopus aut presbyter Can. 5. aut Diaconus vxorem suam pretextu religionis ne abijciat aut si abiecerit à communione segregetur etsi perseueret deponatur Let not a Bishop Elder or Deacon put away his wife vnder pretence of religion if he doe let him be barred from the communion if he continue in his error let him be deposed Can 4. In the Councell of Gangra thus Si quis discernint presbyterum coniugatum tanquā occasionē nuptiarum quod efferre non debeat abeius oblatione abstinet Anathema sit If any man iudge of a maried Bishop as if because hee is maried he ought not to minister and doe abstaine from his ministration let him be accursed In the Councell of Ancyra thus Can. 9. Diaconi si in ipsa ordinatione protestati sint velle se matrimonio copulari hi si postea vxores duxerint in ministerio maneant Deacons if in their verie ordination they protest that they will be maried if afterwards they do marie wiues ought to remaine in the ministerie In the Councell of Constantinople thus Dist 31. quoniam Canon Tertullianis Conc. 6. can 13 Si quis praesumpserit contra Apostolicos Canones aliquos praesbyterorum Diaconorum priuare à contactu communione legalis vxoris suae deponatur similiter praesbyter aut Diaconus qui religionis causa vxorem suam expellit excommunicetur If any shal presume contrary to the Canons of the Apostles to separate any Elders or Deacons from the companie and societie of his lawfull wife let him be deposed likewise the Elders or Deacons which vnder colour of Religion putteth away his wife let him bee excommunicated To be short when the Councell of Nice purposed to seuer Bishops Presbyters and Deacons from the vse of their wiues Paphnutius thought it vnlawfull and intollerable so to doe and brought the whole Councell to bee of his minde Serem lib. 1.22 Paphnutij sententiam approbauit Concilium de hac nullam legem tulit sed eam in cuiusque arbitrio non in necessitate poni voluit The Councell did approoue the sentence of Paphnutius and made no decree concerning this matter but left it in euery mans choise and made not a matter of necessitie But what should we talke of sincere Canons in such matters as bee ouer-ruled and determined in the Canon of the Scripture for if it be doubted whether a Bishop may marie Paul saith to auoide fornication let euerie man haue his wife and in another place mariage is honourable among all And againe if thou takest a wife thou sinnest not 1. Cor. 7.2 Heb. 13 4. 1. Cor. 7.28 1. Cor. 7 9 39. Tertul. de Mo. nog If you doubt whether hee may marrie a second wife Paul saith if they meaning widowers cannot abstaine let them marrie and Tertullian after his fall to Montanisme obiecteth against Christians that their Bishops maried second wiues quot digami president apud vos If you doubt whether a Minister may containe from the vse of his wife Paul saith let the husband giue to his wife due beneuolence And againe the husband hath not the power of his owne bodie but the wife 1. Cor. 7 3. 1. Cor. 7 4. 1. Cor. 7.5 If you doubt whether a Minister may containe with his wifes consent Paul saith defraud not one another except it bee with consent for a time that ye may giue your selues to fasting prayer and come together again that Satan tempt you not for your incontinencie in another place art thou bound to a wife seek not to be loosed 1. Cor. 7.27 Marke well these places of holy Scripture and then iudge how sincere those Canons were that Epiphanius talkes of I doubt you will easily finde that the word of God and sinceritie would agree better Now where this reuerend Father speakes of the Super-eminencie and excellent dignitie of Priest-hood as if the honourable institution and ordinance of God did abase it we must needs thinke him too partially affected for the Apostles of Christ whome our Sauiour aduanced to the highest degree that euer was in ministerie were almost all maried men to say that Peter was not as excellent an Apostle as S. Iohn and that the maried Priests of the primitiue Church were not as excellent men in all respects as the rest that liued singly without wiues is more than any godly learned man will venter to auouch yet notwithstanding the dignitie of Priest-hood doth not free any mortall man from the daunger of fornication neither will Satan therefore cease to tempt vs because we are Priests but set himselfe so much the rather to mooue vs to incontinencie and therfore if a man feeling his owne
wiped away This might serue for answere of this friuolous obiection concerning the instrabilitie of Saint Austines doctrine but because it is a string much harped on let vs assay by harping whether it be a true cord or not now do you k Be like you will not know wheere vnlesse it be shewed you k This place of Austine is cleere against limbus puerorum shew me where Saint Austine doth denie purgatorie as I haue shewed you where he hath affirmed it Pro. Austine in his 14. Chapter De verbis Apostoli saith thus The Lord who shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead as the Gospel saith shall diuide them all into two parts whereof one shall bee placed on his right hand and the other on his left to those on his right hand he shall say Come ye blessed c. The one he calleth his kingdome the other damnation with the deuill there is no third place left for infants and a little after he concludeth thus if there shall be a right hand and a left since we haue none other place by the Gospel behold the kingdome of heauen is on the right hand Pa. Héere is a faire l There be fairer showes in Austine then this shew but all is not gold that glistereth S. Austine in that place hauing to deale with the Pelagians who held that children which die before baptisme should by reason of their innocencie attaine vnto eternall saluation but not vnto the kingdome of heauen and that children are to be baptized not for eternall life but for the kingdome of heauen for confutation of that heresie doth there labour to prooue that whosoeuer doth not appertaine to the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine vnto damnation his argument is this At the generall iudgement Christ shall diuide the quicke and the dead into two parts whereof one shal be on his right hand another on his left therefore children which die before baptisme must either be on the right hand to whom the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine or on the left whose portion is m That is damnation into euerlasting fire with the diuell and his Angels Mat. 25.41 I trow this is hell not limbus puerorum damnation for saith he there remaineth no third place for infants What maketh this place against purgatorie for they that doe allow low of Purgatorie doe hold also that there are but two places to wit heauen and hell and that whosoeuer shall be placed in purgatorie for a time doth notwithstanding appertaine to one of those two places for a third place they likewise doe not know behold how easie a matter it is to carpe at contrariety in any mans writings be they neuer so plaine and perspicuous n Heere the flood-gate is opened to a great deale of prophane and irreligious talke euen so doe the Iewes taxe the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and great appearance thereof there seemeth to be therein S. Iohn saith He that is borne of God sinneth not And againe in the same Epistle he saith If we say we haue no sinne we deceiue our selues and the trueth is not in vs The Bee sucketh honie and the Spider poyson take away the authoritie of the Church Councels and Fathers and leaue euery man to his owne o As though fancy had no place in Councels and fathers but only in Scriptures fancie in the interpretation of Scriptures and open the fountain of all heresie and Atheisme After your single incounter with Saint Austine you seeke to ouerthrow the credite of all the Doctors at once by taxing them with many grosse errors I graunt the doctors had their errours and imperfections so had S. Peter for S. Paul withstood him to his face and p VVe doe not say they are are your new writers of the purest stampe free trow ye much lesse are Cronographers writers of ciuil histories what then shall we q No but resolute diuines become Scepticke Philosophers what shall we not beléeue that which they do write out of their own knowledge and wherof themselues were eye witnesses and consequently shall we beleeue nothing but what we doe r Yes what we taste smell and feele too Lord what vaine chat is this heare and see If you will affoord an Historiographer any credite in these cases affoord the Catholicke doctor the like in the same case beléeue that which he writeth as an eye witnesse if not beleeue an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers of them in a matter of fact confirmed by the testimonie of their owne eyes if not yet beléeue them at the least wherein they doe produce themselues for eye witnesses and ſ All this is but impudent facing a thousand other like witnesses with them of this last sort are most of the testimonies of the doctors which I haue produced against you they write that prayers were made for the dead that sacrifice was offered for the quicke and the dead that it was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and heard and saw it done and thousands moe with them and were themselues principall agents in the doing of it Now let vs see what those errors bée wherewith you seeke to bring the auncient doctors out of credite Irenaeus held t Belike Irenaeus neuer heard any newes of Purgatory that the soules of the righteous should rest in a place for them appointed of God vntill the generall resurrection that Satan did not know his owne damnation before the comming of Christ Tertullian that second marriages were not lawfull Hilarie that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his bodie Cyprian held rebaptization and so might I passe through the rest of these and such like errors u As though they were not deliberate assertions but only scapes escaped in the writings of the fathers Erasmus alleaged a threefolde reason First the points wherein they erred were not as then called in question or if they were the Church had not as then determined of them Secondly they were constrained for the confutation of heresies to handle such high mysteries as were beyond their capacitie Thirdly in dealing earnestly against heretickes they were sometime with feruor carried into the contrarie extreame Now will I shew you the difference beeweene these and the like errours escaped in the writings of the fathers and those points of doctrine wherein I haue cited them as witnesses against you the one they deliuer as their owne priuate opinion the other set downe as a doctrine x How knew they that or you that they did so generally receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church the one is as the Prouerbe saith but one doctors opinion the other an vniforme consent of many the one the Church hath reiected the other it hath receiued and practiseth Thus y So may you see you haue sayd nothing may you see the reason why the doctors are to be reiected in the one and receiued in
liter lib. 10. into the contrary extreame Austine himselfe speaking of Tertullian saith thus De Deo noluit aliter sapere qui sane quoniam acutus est inderdum contra opinionem suam visa veritate superatur quid enim verius dicere potuit quam id quod ait quodam loco Esse corporale passibile est debuit ergo mature sententiam qua paulò superius dixerat etiam Deum corpus esse neque enim arbitror eum ita desipuisse vt etiam Dei naturam passibilem crederet c. He would not conceiue otherwise of God who indeed because he was of quicke iudgement sometimes he is ouercome by the sight of the truth contrary to his owne opinion for what could he speake more truly than when hee saith in a certaine place that to be bodily is to be passible therefore he ought to haue altered that sentence in which he had said a little before that God is a bodie for I doe not thinke that he was so vnwise as to thinke that the nature of God is passible Heere is a contradiction namely to be bodily is to be passible and God is bodily which be the premises of a Syllogisme and if you adde the conclusion which ariseth of them Ergo God is passible the falsehood of it will prooue the one of them to be false likewise now the maior is most true saith Austine ergo say I the minor is false and so consequently the one agreeth no better with the other than truth and falsehood you will say then debunt ergo mutare sententiam it is true but he changed it not for ought wee know but left this and some other contrarieties behind him vnretracted yet was he still accounted a very learned man Cyprian when he called for Tertullian was woont to say da magistrum giue me my master Austine saith acutus est he is a quicke and subtile disputer and Erasmus Inter Latinos Theologos multò omnium doctissimus Tertullianus Tertullian was the learnedest by much In praefat oper Hilaric of the Latine diuines Now where our papist still goeth on and tels vs after his absurd manner that the Iewes tare the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and that great apparance thereof seemes to be therein heere is but a seeming of apparance against the Euangelists and therefore I hope he is well able to stop any Iewes mouth in that behalfe and to defend the writings of the Euangelists against seemings of apparance if he cannot doe the like for the fathers and doctors then hath he sayd nothing to purpose but bred a suspition in his reader that he had rather the Euangelists should miscarie than the Fathers and this suspition is yet increased in that he accounteth the holy Scriptures without Churches Fathers and Councels to be the fountaine of all Heresie and Atheisme for may not a mans fancie mislead him in the fathers as well as the Scriptures and sucke poyson out of the one aswell as the other I am sure Dioscorus crieth out in the Councell of Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Action 1. Ibidem Cyrilli in multis locis ego cum patribus eijcior c. I haue the testimonie of the holie fathers Athenasius Gregorie Cyrill in ma-many places I am cast out with the Fathers c. So Eutyches Ego legi scripta beati Cyrilli Athanasij Ibid. Action sanctorum patrum So Carosus Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem octo patrum sic credo c. I beleeue thus according to the testimonie of three hundred and eighteene Fathers Heere bee Fathers and Councels alleaged by arrand heretickes as the grounds of their poyson but of the Scripture Ad pompeium cont epist Steph. de peccac merit remiss lib. 1. 12. Cyprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus If wee returne to the head and fountaine of Gods tradition the error of man doth cease And Austine Scriptura sacra nec falli potest nec fallere The holy Scripture can neither deceiue nor be deceiued As for the Church he talkes of if he be straitly examined he will tell you he meanes the Church of Rome and so no Scripture nor enarration of Scripture may goe currant but that which Rome will affoord vs that 's the Church which hee takes to be as he said a while agoe the sure rocke and pillar of trueth De expresse verbo Dei Hosius saith Si quis habeat interpretationē ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo scripturae etiāsi nec sciat nec intelligat an quomodo cum scripturae verbis conueniat tamen habet ipsissimum verbum Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome of some place of scripture although he neither know not vnderstand whether and how it doth agree with the words of the Scripture yet he hath the very word of God How like you this my maisters you need talke no more of Fathers and Councels no nor of learning nor wit neither for the Church of Rome whether it agree or agree not with the words of the Scripture will serue the turne you may burne your bookes and goe about other businesse the Church of Rome will watch for you but sirs I pray you tell vs wil your Church of Rome when she hath giuen vs an interpretation stand to it like a post and neuer alter that would be knowen before we yeeld to this which you vrge vpon vs. Nicho. Casanus No we dare not promise you that for we haue a great man one Nicholas Cusanus once a Cardinall in the Church of Rome who hath intituled a book which he hath written in defence of the Church thus De authoritate ecclesiae conciliorum supra contra scripturam of the authoritie of the Church Councels aboue contrary to the Scripture And in that booke he hath set downe Praxis ecclesiae vno tempore interpretatur Scripturā vno modo alio tempore alio modo nam intellectus currit cum praxi c. The practise of the Church interpreteth the Scriptures at one time one way and at another time another way for the vnderstanding runneth with the practise Marry then fie vpon you and vpon your Church our owne fancie will prooue as good an interpreter as either you or your Church Now let vs consider of his three differences betweene the errors of the Fathers those points of doctrine whereof we haue disputed I pray you looke vpon them and you shall find the two first to be the same and the third little differing from the other two the Fathers errors saith he were priuate opinions that 's the first one doctors opinion that 's the next reiected of the Church that 's the last Now if this word reiected be no more but not receiued or allowed for the Church neuer condemned euerie seuerall errour of the Fathers by publicke sentence
c. and the other out of Iohn Rom. lib. 1. cap. 2. giueth the Apostles no more but Potestatē ordinis ad remittenda peccata Power of order to remit sins Thus must your papist either be at oddes with Bellarmine or else giue claues iurisdictionis the keyes of iurisdiction onely to Peter and his successors and to the rest nothing but potestatem ordinis and so consequently he must find other places besides these or else his keyes will neither open nor shut as he would haue them Wherefore let him consult with Bellarmine his master before he presume ouer farre vpon the doctrine of the Church of Rome and he will tell him that the keyes both of order and iurisdiction were giuen to Peter in these words Iohn 21.15 c. Iohn 20.21 c. Pasce oves meas Feede my sheepe and to the other Apostles in these as my father sent me so send I you and in these words to receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes yee reteine they are reteined and here note by the way how solemnely Father Bellarmine tels vs that our Sauiour in these two places gaue Summam potestatem Chiefe power to all his Apostles Sed cum quadam subiectione ad Petrum But with a kind of subiection to Peter As if summa potestas and subiectio could possibly agree together or as if Peter himselfe receaued that same high power among the rest vsed it Cum quadam subiectione ad se ipsum with a kind of subiection to himself Such ridiculous absurdities doe men runne headlong into when they are ouer hastily carried away with their owne dreames But goe too let vs intreat the Cardinall to beare with his friend and to procure him a dispensation to vnderstand these two places which he citeth after his owne liking what hath he than to say Marry then I say our sense is more literall then yours well and what saith he else Nay we say that our Sauiour by these words doth giue authoritie and commission to his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be Yea but haue they commission to forgiue sinnes wheresoeuer they find it or else in them onely that God is willing to forgiue Their commission I trow is not vniuersall to all without discretion and to dreame who it is that God purposeth to shew mercy vnto is beyond the capacitie of any man liuing Papist to Protestant he that hath a letter of Atturney from his master to giue possession of and knoweth the man to whom he is commaunded to conuey his masters interest Rom. 9.18 but our master hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will hee hardeneth neither may your popist Priest presume that hee knoweth the mind of the Lord Rom. 11.33.34 and can find out his wayes and iudgements which be insearchable and so this silly papist heere confesseth when he saith that man giueth remission to pretended penitents which God who seeth their hearts doth not ratifie now then conferre this power thus exercised hand ouer head to good and bad as papists vse it with our preaching or publishing remission to penitent sinners and then iudge whether is most like to be the better And because he bragges of the literrall sense that it makes wholly for him let him tell mee how the generall words of the Scripture whatsoeuer thou shalt bind whatsoeuer thou shalt loose whosoeuers sinnes yee remit and whosoeuers sinnes ye retaine can be literally restrained to such onely as be truely penitent if this cannot be done without a quatefication let him not bragge that his sense is more literall than ours we preach remission to all that be penitent and so open vnto them the kingdome of heauen to the impenitent Rom. 2.8 and such as contentiously disobey the truth wee denounce indignation and wrath Esay 5.14 and so shut heauen open hell wide that their glory their multitude pompe may descend into it neither can this sense seeme strange to such as be conuersant in the writings of the Fathers Thus saith Tertullian Contr. Marcion lib. 4. Esa lib. 6. cap. 14. De Cain Abel lib. 2. cap. 4. In Oper. imperf in Mat. cap. 23. Quam clauem habebant legis doctores nisi interpretationem legis What keyes had the doctors of the law but the interpretation of the law Thus Ierome Soluunt Apostoli sermone Dei testimonijs scripturarum exhortatione virtutū The Apostles doe loose by the word of God and testimonies of the Scriptures and exhortation vnto vertues Thus Ambrose Remittuntur peccata per verbum Dei cuius Leuites est interpres Sinnes are remitted by the word of God of which the minister is interpreter Thus Chrysostome Clauicularij sunt sacerdotes quibus creditum est verbum docendi interpretandi scripturas The key-keepers are the Priests vnto whom the word of teaching and interpreting the Scriptures is committed But it may be our papist by comparison of his interpretation and ours will find out the truth thus hee writes you build your faith vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or the conceit of your owne braine and we vpon the authoritie of the auncient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall Church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remaining to this day Heere is a tale told with all circumstances pressed downe and running ouer for hee might haue left out either vniuersall Church or through the whole world either continued or continuall practise or remaining to this day if he had not purposed to dazle vs with emptie wordes but is this the comparison he crakes of Now surely we must needs bee hard hearted that cannot yeeld to such comparisons can you prooue that wee build our faith vpon Luther or Caluine or our owne braine or doe you compare together our faith and yours when you compare the opinion and conceit of Luther or Caluine with the authority of the ancient Fathers Alas good Papist you cannot but know that our faith is no mans conceit or opinion and it is a shame for you to confesse that you build your faith vpon the authoritie of the Fathers or practise of the Church be it neuer so ancient I hope the fathers builded not vpon other Fathers that were their ancients but vpon the infallible word of God and what should ayle vs that we may not vse that meanes the Fathers vsed before vs you may talke long inough of Fathers and traditions and your toppe gallant Church of Rome as though no one Father sayd any thing for vs yet when you haue all done you must giue vs leaue ot we will take leaue to found our faith and religion vpon the written word of the Almightie Thus is your Popish fellowes Rhetoricke come to small effect and therefore he will now trie what his Logicke can doe Thus
for the repressing of popish insolencie First therefore where it is disputed that if our description of the Church be right then the ancient Fathers were heretickes and the vniuersall Church hereticall I am content this sequele be iudged by that which hath been alreadie disputed if euerie disagreement from truth must needs bee heresie Gal. 2.11 c. Act. 15.39 Act. 11.2 c. then either Paul or Peter was an hereticke and so was either Barnabas or Paul who were so stirred the one against the other that they parted asunder Peter was chidden of the Church of Iewrie for communicating to the Gentiles yet the Church was deceiued and not Peter 1. Co. 3 12.13 euerie errour is not an heresie and euerie one that builds timber hay or stubble vpon the foundation is not an hereticke and therefore this loose talke is little worth Yea but let vs admit saith hee that there was such a Church as you imagine in the first three hundred yeeres after Christ though it bee most false nay you must admit it maugre your head neither is it false euer the sooner with a merrie word prooue it to be false and wee will bee as farre from either admitting it or imagining it as your selfe but so long as you vse such a generall defence as they of Sodome and Gomorha and the Cities adioyning might haue vsed against Lot the Cananites against Abraham and the old world against Noah and his familie there is no cause why such goodly shewes of antiquitie should controll Gods truth if Lot Abraham and Noah had beene ruled by prescription of time by multitude by authoritie of Princes by traditions of Elders or by any thing else in the world but Gods owne mouth they had been as Sodome and like to Gomorha and yet for all that Peter the head Patron of Rome as you say and the Iewes that depended vppon him playd the hypocrites together and Barnabas a good man full of the holy Ghost and faith Act. 11.24 was led away with them to the same hypocrisie and though the scripture testifie of Lot that hee was a iust man Gal. 2.13 and that his righteous soule was vexed from day to day with the vncleanly conuersation of the wicked yet by your leaue 2. Pet. 2.7.8 the prostitution of his daughters his drunkenesse and incest Gen. 19.8.31 c. doe plainely euince that he was somewhat tainted with the sins of Sodome Yea but Sodome was not the Church of God neither was there any Christian Church established when Peter and his companie playd the hypocrites Well Let that bee graunted yet my reason is so much the stronger for if Strangers from God and young Nouises in religion preuailed so much that the one drew Lot the other Peter and Barnabas to doe thinges not conuenient how much more may the vsuall slips and fals and infections of Christian Churches worke the like inconueniences in the Fathers and guides of the same we doe not imagine that the Church of Christ was vtterly quailed and extinguished vpon a suddaine for that 's more than the gates of hell shall euer be able to bring to passe but this we say and are sure that the mysterie of iniquitie did worke in Pauls time and fell not a sleepe as soone as Saint Paule was dead waking againe 600. 2. Thes 2.7 yeares after when this mysterie was disclosed for Rome was not built in a day or vpon a suddaine and the Maister builders of it are none of the seuen Sleepers and therefore no maruaile though perusing Councels Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward we finde the print of the Popes feet here and there scatteringly and so perceiue how he went on and grewe to the fulnesse of the age of Antichrist Neither is it preiudiciall to Gods cleere truth faithfully registred in the word of God that none tooke penne in hand to defend it against Antichrist for the Angels of Pergamus and Thyatira Reuel cap. 2.14.15.20 though they were Gods faithfully Ministers yet doe wee not read that either they or any of their fellowes and friends wrote or spake any thing against Baalamites and Nicholaitans and the false prophecies of Iesabell that infected their Churches Epist 119. ad Ianuar. Austine saith Multa huiusmodi propter nonnull trum vel sanctarum vel turbulentarum personarum scandala deuitanda liberiùs improbare non audeo I dare not freely as I should improoue many scandals of this kind because of some either holy or troublesome persons that fauour them and therefore no maruell though the religion of Antichrist being a compound heresie of many simples grew on soft and faire and plodded still forward by little and by little without any resistance till the time came it should bee disclosed if the light of truth had been suddenly eclipsed the ancient Fathers and their adherents would haue laboured to restore it but this eclipse growing slowly by small peeces they knew not the deepenesse of Satan Reuel 2.24 Math. 13.25 c. and so gaue the tares of Antichrist leaue to growe so long among the wheat til they were past weeding neuerthelesse looke the preface of Caluines Institutions to the French King and there you shall finde the testimonies of Acacius Spiridion Ambrose Austine Epiphanius Gelasius Chrysostome Calixtus Cyprian Apollonius Paphnutius and others against outward braueries abstinence from flesh monkish idlenesse painted Images suffrages for the dead transubstantiation the halfe communion vnwritten determinatiōs set fastings forbidding mariage mans weak iudgment and such like flowers of Antichrists garland and if these had sayd nothing yet there were many other Fathers besides these and whether they tooke penne in hand and wrote more fully against the seuerall branches of Poperie as they grew it were hard to tell yet may wee affirme it with as good probabilitie as you may denie it howsoeuer it be the wisedome of God hauing so decree to punish our vnthankefulnesse the doctrine of Rome Reuel 17.9 which is the seat of Antichirst grew and increased a long time but thankes bee to God it is now in such a consumption as eats vp the flesh of it 2. Thes 2.8 and wee haue sufficient warrant that it shall bee abolished Neither is this increase and multiplication of errour till it conquer sinceritie and truth and breake forth into open absurdities so strange a matter in the Church of God Thus you may read in the Valentine Councell In proemio Quorundā patrum vtilis fuit religiosa suggestio retractandi de his quae nec recipere possumus ob ecclesiae sanctitatem nec tamen vsquequaque consuetudinis causa damnare ita enim per omnes ecclesias eiusmodi vitiorum germen inoleuit vt ad plena remedia non facilis sit recursus Profitable and religious is the motion of certain Fathers concerning retracting those thinges which because of the holynesse of the Church we may not receiue and yet by reason of custome dare
Bishop to Bishop to know and certifie the state of al Churches and yet that policy could not worke faith further then the credite of the man which is a poore stay for a christian conscience Verily the credite of men is but a sandye foundation to build vpon in matters not written seeing your Papist was so fouly ouerseene in the community of all things a matter written in great letters and so determined in the worde of God that all open eyes may see and perceiue that it was neuer vniuersally practised and whereas it pleaseth him to talke of weedes and bastard plants that they could not still remaine without checke or contradiction I am sure he hath read in Matthew Sap. 13.25 that while men slept the enuious man sewd tares among the wheat and that both should grow together vntill haruest and therefore no maruell though the mystery of iniquitie grew on stil by little and little by reason of mens sleepines and wrought closely without any effectuall contradiction otherwise it had not beene a mystery yet notwithstanding when once it was growne so out of fashion that men saw how vgly and mishapen it was 2. Thes 2.7.8 then the spirite of the Lords mouth began to consume it and when haruest is come it shall be abolished neither is it maruell that Councels and catholicke Doctors slept while the tares of Anti-christian Religion were a sowing and so ignorantly gaue their helping hand to the inthronizing of the man of sinne Apoc. 2.13 c. for the Angell of Pergamus was a faithfull seruant of God yet Satan had erected himselfe a throne in his Church to teach the doctrine of Baalam Apo. 2.19 c. and the Nicholaitans which God hated the like may be sayd of that worthy Angell of Thyatira of whom God gaue testimonie that hee knewe his loue seruice faith patience and workes to be more at the last than at the first yet hee suffered the woman Iezabel to deceiue the seruants of God The Dialogue Sectio V. PAp Now let vs returne from whence we haue digressed that is to say vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I haue sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause by a How prooue you that wee haue excluded them excluding out of your Church all the ancient Catholick Fathers and Doctors for admit that you could by expounding wresting of scriptures intrude your selfe into such a Church as holdeth no Doctrine but such as is warranted by the canonicall Scriptures b Nonsequitur yet must you leaue out of the same Church as Heretickes and Scismatickes all the ancient Fathers and Bishops of the Latine and Greeke Churches neither are you c you measure vs by your selues able to name any time or place where or when your Church was extant or any one Bishop or principall member thereof Pro. What points of Doctrine are they which the antiquitie did hold without warrant of scripture what ancient Fathers Doctors Bishops were they that held such doctrine Pap. In a word they were all Papists which being prooued you will not denie the consequent d All the Fathers held not these points and some of these points were bastards and haue no knowne Fathers they held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation they offered a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead they prayed to Saints held also vowes of chastitie the vnlawfulnesse of Priests marriage and the descention of Christs soule into Hell call you not this Papistry I am sure you had rather be in your Church alone than to be troubled with such papisticall Companions now shall you heare e All this hath nothing in it but facing the opinion of euerie Doctor deliuered by his owne penne in such plaine words as you shall not be able by any glosse or distinction to peruert but must néedes confesse that they were all out of your new Church I will begin with prayer for the dead and so goe on in order The Answere THe second wound is come at length to the searching namely that all the ancient Fathers and Bishops must bee excluded as heretickes and scismatickes out of our Church and why so Marry because they held certaine points of Doctrine not warranted by the canonicall Scriptures is not this a deepe wound thinke ye wee say indeed that no other doctrine ought to bee curtant in the Church but such as hath the image and superscription of the Canonicall Scriptures but doe you therefore say that all such as haue beene carried beyond those limits through ignorance or infirmitie Cyprian lib. 2. Epist 3. are to be put out for wranglers Si quis de antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc obseruauit tenuit quod nos dominus facere exemplo magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati eius de indulgentia domini venia concedi nobis vero non poterit ignosci qui nunc à domino admoniti instructi sumus If any of our Predecessors either of ignorance or simplicity did not obserue and keepe this which the Lord by his example and commandement hath taught the Lord of his mercie may pardon his simplicitie but wee after wee haue beene admonished and instructed so of the Lord may looke for no pardon Thus sayd Cyprian of the Aquarians that were before him and so say we of the ancient Fathers that haue added the timber hay and stubble of traditions to the gold siluer and precious stones of Scripture howbeit see I pray you how your Papist hanges the principall pillars of his Religion vpon tradition and all to wring out the Fathers out of our Church The Fathers were all Papists and held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation Sacrifice for quicke and dead prayer to dead Saints vowes of chastitie the single life of Priests and the descention of Christs soule into hell all these trim points of learning you shall heare now so prooued by tradition out of euerie Doctor as you must confesse to bee super excellent yet take heed you do not expound these words euerie Doctor heretically after the imagination of your owne braine for I dare assure you he neuer saw the couers of euerie Doctor and therefore you may not vnderstand them simply as they sound but charitably for so many as haue writings extant and could be intreated of this suddain to speake an ambiguous word or two in these matters The Dialogue Sectio VI. Prayer for the dead EPiphanius lib. 3. To. primo Cap. 75. It appeareth there that the Hereticke Aerius was of your opinion a And of yours too for you dare not pray for the release of incurable sinnes as the Church then did looke bet-vpon Epiphanius concerning Prayer for the dead and concerning the feast of Easter and the equalitie of Ministers he was a flat Puritane For he held that there was no difference betwéen a Priest and a Bishop he vsed the b