Linguistic DNA - Concept Modelling Demonstrator

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	apostle_n	bishop_n	priest_n	6,450	5	6.6355	4	true

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01336	An ansvver of a true Christian to the proude challenge of a counterset Catholike. By VVilliam Fulke Doctor in diuinitie; Two treatises written against the papistes. Part 1	Fulke, William, 1538-1589.; Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566. Notable discourse.	1577 (1577)	STC 11459; ESTC S122230	76,157	126

succession according to persons or places you are neuer able to proue that any such thing was promised to the Church that we should shew you the performance there of in our Church Otherwise we doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie poinctes of Christian Religion Although the worlde and the church of Antichrist did not alwayes see them 2 And is able to name you by the histories of all ages the notable personnes of all the forsaide states in their gouernment and ministerie A Gaine I answere you that you are not able to name me any text of scripture by which you can proue that al these offices must haue perpetual coÌ„tinuance in the church of Christ nor yet that any of them should kepe an ordinarie succession of place or persons But contrariwise seeing it was prophecied that the church should flie into the wildernes that is be driuen out of the sight and knowledge of the wicked and be so narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a longe season it were a token our church were not the true church if we could name such notable persons as you speake of in all ages florishing in their gouernment and ministerie And it is a good argument that the Popish church is not the church of Christe because it was neuer hidden sence it first sprang vp in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can reherse in order vpon your fingers in which beadroole neuerthelesse you must name many tyrants many traytors one whore many whoremongers many Sodomites many murtherers many poysenors many sorcerers and Necromancers and from Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and Antichristes But our church which hath not had so many registers chroniclers and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer but yet honester men to name we can name Peter Paule Mathew Iohn c. Marke Luke Timothe Agabus Epaphras c. Instinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hylarius Ambrosius Augustinus c. Gyldas Bertramus Marsilius de Padua Ioan. de Ganduno Bruno Andagauensis VVickleue Iohn Hus Hierome of Prage c. With the first namely Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets we consent wholly in all pointes of doctrine with the rest in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith alwayes agreeing with any man so farre as he agreeth with the worde of God. 3 And if he can proue vnto me that their Church hath neuer lacked the same appointed officers or that any Church or CongregatioÌ„ but ours hath kept that charge theÌ„ I recant FOr some of those officers I haue twise aunswered before that they were not ordeined to continue alwaies with the church wherefore they are not to be exacted of vs but such officers as are necessary for the conseruation of God his people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Christ our Church hath neuer lacked although in time of the great defection and Apostasie whereof S. Paule doth prophesie 2. thess. 2. there were but few as there were but fewe members of Christ his Church notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs And although we could rehearse in order as many successions in our Church as the papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures as S. Augustine sayth in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae against the Donatistes cap. 16. Sed vtrum ipsi Ecclesiam teneant non nisi diuinarum Scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credere oportere quod Ecclesiae sumus quia ipsam quam tenemus commendauit Mileuitanus Optatus vel Mediolanensis Ambrosius vel alij innumerabiles nostrae communionis Episcopi c. But whether they holde the Church or no let them shew none otherwise but by the canonicall bookes of holy Scripture for we our selues doe not therefore say that men must beleeue vs that we are in the Church because we hold the same Churche which Optatus of Mileuitum hath commended or Ambrose of Millayn or innumerable Bishops of our communion Euen so we require at the Papistes handes that shewe them selues to holde the Church not by succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures for although we did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly succession on our side we would not require men to beleue vs but onely because we proue the doctrine of our Church by the authoritie of the Scriptures But as for the popish church neyther hath nor euer had any of those officers which S. Paule speaketh of for Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets she can chalenge by no reason seing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writings in steede of pastors reachers she hath wolues duÌ„me dogges or false prophets which either teach not at all or else teach the doctrine of deuills the dreames of men And further I would desire none other place in all the Scripture to ouerthrow the popish Hierarchie which is the greatest glory of their Church then this place of Paule Ephes 4. he speaketh of Apostles Euangelists Prophets Pastors and teachers But where are Popes Cardinalls popish archbishops Bishops Preestes DeacoÌ„s Subdeacons Exorcistes Cantors Acolyts Ostiares Monkes Friars ChanoÌ„s Nunnes c. Wherfore I coÌ„clude that all these popish orders are no offices in the Church of Christ And especially seeing the Apostle both in this place Eph. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of minde he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnity for if there had bene any such office appoynted of God S. Paule in no wise woulde haue omitted it especially when it made so notably for the confirmation of his purpose which was vnitie To conclude if it be sufficient or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeded in all ages in the bishops sees in an outwarde face of the Church the Greeke Church is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession Wherefore if you be as ready to performe as to promise you recant The nynth article may be deuided into nyne demaundes 1 And for the necessary vse and execution of the foresayd offices they must further be asked what Sacramentes the Protestants ministred for the space of a thousand yeares togither in which they confesse their congregations to haue bene neare or else wholy hidden THey ministred those Sacramentes which Christ did institute namely the Sacrament of baptisme and the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ at such times as the cruell tyrannie of you Papistes did not hinder them to come togither for such purposes 2 VVhat correction they kept and discipline

purpose because the gouernment of the Byshop of Rome is most misliked of them and yet most notoriously knowne by euery historie let them name the Pope that first brake of the course of his forefathers beleefe regiment in any article of fayth or necessary Christian vsage and I recant I Haue named before Victor which was the first that went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches Also I haue named Boniface the third which was the first that chalenged to be vniuersall bishop For Gregorie the great sayeth Nemo meorum decessorum hoc prophano vocabulo vti voluit That is None of my predecessors woulde vse this prophane worde The same Gregorie as Hulderichus bishop of Auspourge doth testifie was the first that compelled priests to liue vnmaried which afterwarde when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked Thus hauing named diuers Popes that first brake the course of their fathers faith and regiment c. and more coulde rehearse but for auoyding prolixitie I chalenge your promise that you must recant The 12. article hath 3. demandes 1 Item I aske what kinde and order of seruice or common prayer what waye of ministring of the sacraments your Church had before Papistry as you call it did preuaile in the worlde IVstinus Martyr in his second Apollogie to the Emperour declareth plainely what order of seruice and ministration of sacramentes our Church had before Papistry preuayled On the daye called Sonday sayth he there is a meeting together of all them that dwell in the Citie or in the countrie and the monumentes of the Apostles or the writinges of the Prophetes are reade vntill it be thought sufficient when the reader hath made an ende he that is our ouerseer or cheefe minister maketh a sermon of admonition and exhortation to follow those good thinges that are reade After this we all stande vp together and make our prayers and as we haue saide before when our prayers are ended there is brought forth bread and wine water and the cheefe minister doth likewise with all his might yelde prayers and thankesgeuing and the people aunswereth Amen Then is made distribution to euery one and receyuing of those thinges for which thankes was geuen and to them that be absent it is sent by the deacons Such as are riche and willing doe geue almes what they will c. By this one authoritie it may be seene though other might be brought what order of seruice and ministration of sacraments our Church vsed before Papistry gat the vpper hande 2 Shew one booke of Communion or what els you list that was in English or lacked prayer for the departed or inuocation of Sainctes in heauen or that wanted oblation or sacrifice or that charged a number to receyue or els that the preest coulde not consecrate nor say Masse himselfe or shew any note in a Communion booke that the people shoulde take the sacrament for plaine breade or that they should geue no honor to it shew this booke or any leafe or line of this booke IT may trouble a wise man to aunswere all the questions that a foole can propounde you requier to see a booke of Communion in English or that lacked c. When it is confessed that the English nation receiued their religion first from Rome at such time as Religion there was verie corrupt what marueill is it if we can not shewe you such a Communion booke as you require but we can easily shew you out of the scripture the the Communion ought to be ministred in the vulgare tongue that prayer for the deade and to the deade ought not to be vsed that the sacrament ought not to be turned into a sacrifice that there ought to be a communioÌ„ of many receauers and not a priuate masse that the substance of the bread is not changed that the elementes of the sacrament are not to be honored these I say we can proue out of the worde of God the Catholike writers of the olde Church And though perchaunce it wil be harde to finde a communion booke in English yet haue I founde you a canon of the Laterane Councell that it ought to haue bene translated into English yet are there founde diuers monumentes of Antiquitie as Prayers Psalmes and Homilies c. in the olde English or Saxons tongue in which the reall presence transubstantiation and other poinctes of Popish doctrine are plainly confuted There may be shewed you also Bybles both the olde Testament and New in the English tongue of diuers translations in olde written hande Also great bookes of English homilies inueighing directly against the Pope and all Popish doctrine in olde English written hande with diuers other small treatises and pamphlets of like matters if these woulde do you any good you might haue the sight of them when you please 3 Or any Church or Congregation that euer had any Authenticall seruice but ours and I recant THe Church of the Brytannes before Augustine came in with Romish seruice had they not trow you Authenticall seruice which continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time The Grecians also Orientall churches haue they not vnto this day their Authenticall seruice which is not yours If you can not deny this you should recant The 13. article hath 2. demaundes 1 Furthermore I requier to know what shoulde be the cause that the Protestants themselues doe receiue all Byshops Priestes Deacons and other officers spirituall of all sortes of our Catholike church and doe admit them as men lawfully and sufficiently ordered both to preach minister sacraments and to exercise spirituall iurisdiction no lesse but rather more than if they were of their owne ordering where we of the Catholike church doe not acknowledge any man of their calling to be any whit more fitte for any spirituall function than other lay men ALthough all godly men wishe more seueritie of discipline to be vsed in receyuing them that come out of heresies to serue in the Church than is commonly practised in England yet you are highlie deceyued if you thinke we esteeme your offices of Bishops priests deacoÌ„s any better than the state of lay men but farre worse for we iudge them to be nothing els but Antichristianitie heresie and blasphemie And therefore we receiue none of them to minister in our church except they forsweare your religion And so their admission is not an allowing of your ordering but a new calling vnto the ministerie 2 Therefore vpon this presumption that they doe not onely admit our ministring of sacraments but also the lawfull ordering of the ministers for the same if they can shew me why our church hauing by their owne consent and approuing lawfull priestes and bishops should not be the true church I recant YOu presume to much as I saide before to thinke that we receiue your orderinge to be lawfull or your ministring of sacraments to be pure And if you gather that we admitte your ministration of sacraments because we doe not rebaptize

true Church better than the honorable name of Catholike or more condemne them to be out of Christes church thaÌ„ that not only the ChristiaÌ„ worlde geueth it not to them but they in a name do refuse the same them selues then do I recant HEre you bewraye your selfe euidently and acknowledge that we doe not sclaunder you when we say you boast onely of the Catholike church For you declare plainely that you haue no better argument then the very name of the Catholike Church to proue that you be the Catholike Church if this be the best argument all the rest is litle worth For if the onely name of an honest man is enough to proue an honest man many a knaue may proue him selfe an honest man and if the very name of learning make a learned man many an asse may proue him selfe to be a learned man or if the name of a good Christian proue a man to be a good Christian euery hypocrite may proue him selfe a good Christian Likewise if you haue no greater argument that can more condemne vs then that we are not called the Catholike Church then can you no more condemne vs then Christ and his Apostles that were not onely not called the true Church but also were called heretikes deceiuers by the people of the Iewes which were as rightly called God his people as they that giue you the name of Catholike Church are called the Christian world It is well you haue nothing better to proue your Church then the honorable name of Catholike nor any thing more to condeÌ„ne our Church then that we are not called Catholike and yet we haue as many nations and more then you haue that by publike authoritie call vs Catholikes and you heretikes although you most shamefully sclaunder vs that we doe refuse the name being offered vnto vs Seeing you boast so much of the name Catholike you shall heare what some of the old writers iudged thereof Chrysostome in an homelie that he writeth of Adam and Eue in the later ende hath these words after he hath tolde them that he hath no neede to repeate such depe questions as those men haue handled which haue fought against heretikes Satis sufficere credimus quicquid secuÌ„dum praedictas regulas Apostolica scripta nos docuerunt vt prorsus opinemur Catholicum quod apparuerit praefixis sententijs esse contrarium that is we beleue that what so euer the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules is sufficient in so much that in no wise we thinke that to be Catholike which shall appeare to be contrary to the sentences before determined By this you may see that Chrysostome thought it not sufficient to haue the name of Catholike for he iudged nothing to be Catholike in deede that was contrary to the rule grouÌ„ded in the writings of the Apostles Wherfore how so euer you boast of the honorable name of Catholike except you can proue that your opinions agree with the Scripture they are not Catholike in deede by Chrysostomes iudgement S. Augustine also in his booke de Genese ad literam imperfecto cap. 1. speaking of the Catholike faith sayth This is an article thereof that we should beleue Constitutam ab eo matrem Ecclesiam quae Catholica dicitur ex eo quia vniuersaliter perfecta est in nullo claudicat per totum orbem diffusa est That he hath appoynted a mother Church which is called Catholike of this because it is vniuersally perfect halteth in nothing and is dispersed ouer all the worlde S. Augustine here is not content that the Church be onely called Catholike but sheweth when it is that which it is called and therefore the popish Church not being vniuersally perfect as most Papists will confesse that many thinges in their church haue neede of reformation halting in many thinges from the truth of God his worde neither yet being dispersed ouer all the world but conteyned in a corner of Europa is not by S. Augustines rule the Catholike Church Furthermore S. Augustine coÌ„tra Epistolam FundameÌ„ti cap. 4. against the Manichees plainely declareth how farre forth not onely the name of Catholike but also how farre vniuersally consent succession antiquitie are to be allowed Vt ergo hanc omittam sapientiam c. Therefore to omitte this wisedom which you do beleue to be in the Catholike Church there be many other things which may hold me most righteously in her bosome The coÌ„sent of people and nations holdeth me the authoritie begun with miracles nourished with hope encreased with charitie confirmed by antiquitie doth hold me The succession of Priestes from the very seate of Peter the Apostle vnto whom our Lord after his resurrection committed his sheepe to be fedde euen vnto this present bishopricke doth hold me Last of all that very name of Catholike doth hold me which name not without a cause this Church alone hath so obteyned among so many heresies that wheras all heretiks would be called Catholikes yet when a stranger shall aske where men meete at the Catholike Church none of the heretikes dare shew him either their principall temple or house All this you will say maketh exceeding much for vs yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat sola personat veritatis pollicitatio quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit proponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in Catholica teneor that is But among you where there is none of these thinges that may prouoke or holde me there soundeth the onely promise of truth which if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred before all those thinges by which I am holden in a Catholike Church By this you may plainly see that though consent antiquitie succession and the name of Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all it is truth that maketh Catholike to be estemed and not Catholike that giueth authoritie to truth Wherefore seeing it were better to proue your Church to be Catholike then to boast that it is so called to disproue our Church so to be then to say it is not so called The best way for you is to recant The 21. article conteyneth but one demande 1 Moreouer I aske of the Protestants whether in that time in which they holde the true church to haue bene hidden or lost the people that learned this article of their Creede I beleue the Catholike church was bounde to goe from that church which they sawe and taught them both the article and all other thinges touching their faith and by which they were Christened and receyned all other sacraments and commodities of saluation whether they were bounde I say to beleue this vnknowen and close Congregation which they coulde

Christi OVr Church doth rightly chalenge to be the body of Christ which acknowledgeth Christ to be her only head Sauiour Redeemer Priest King Intercessor c. The Popishe church can not chalenge this name because she doth not acknowledge Christ to be theese only and wholly 2 Sponsa Christi THe spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby so doth our Church therefore she is spouse of Christ But the Romish church goeth a whoringe after her owne inuentions committeth grosse idolatry and will in no wise be ruled only by the voice of Christ there she is not the spouse of Christ 3 Vinci dilecta Christo HOwe tenderly Christ loueth his Church the true members thereof which haue receiued the first frutes of his spirit do better vnderstand in hart thaÌ„ can be expressed with words howe he abhorreth the whore of Babylon the Romishe Synagoge the Scripture doth plentifully declare 4 Columba speciosa OVr Church expressing the simplicitie of a fayer doue may iustly chalenge this name But the Babylonicall Strompet your church in crafte and subtilitie is more like a foxe than a doue 5 Domus Dei. THe true Church in which we are is the house or familie of God which he gouerneth by his stewardes the sincere preachers of his word The popish church is the Synagoge of Satan where the preaching of God his word is despised and the word it selfe made subiect to mens determinations and authorities 6 Columna veritatis SAinct Paule by this title doth admonish Pastors and Preachers how great a burthen and charge they susteyne that the truth of the Gospell can not be continued in the world but by their ministerie in the church of God which is the piller and stay of truth this their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to set forth the Gospell and to preach the truth But the popish church which is not the vpholder and mainteyner but the ouerthrower oppressor of the truth compelling it to giue place to falshood and error can by no equitie chalenge this name to be called the piller and stay of truth but rather of falshood and lyes 7 Ciuitas Dei. OVr Church is the citie of God builded vpon the foundations of the Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles Iesus Christ being the head corner stone ruled by the lawes of God onely reteyning that forme of regiment and common wealth that Christ him selfe hath prescribed The Church of Antichrist is founded vppon seuen hilles Apoc. 17. vpon the traditions dreames phantasies and deuises of men refuseth to be ruled onely by the lawes of God hath cleane altered and changed the forme of regiment prescribed by God set vp an other full of Antichristian pride crueltie and tyrannie Therefore in no wise may be called the citie of God But Babylon the mother of fornication Sodoma and Egypt where our Lord is daily crucified in his members 8 Ciuitas supra montem posita THis saying of our Sauiour Christ in the 5. of Mathew is not properly meant of the Church but of the Apostles their successors the ministers of the Church euen as these sayinges You are the salte of the earth you are the light of the worlde A citie builded vppon an hill can not be hidden neither is a candle lighted to be set vnder a bushell By which wordes he teacheth them aboue all other men to looke diligently to their life and conuersation for as they excell in place and dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vppon them As a citie builded vppon an hill must needes be seene of all them that come neare it so they being placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men As a candle is not lighted but to be set on a candlesticke to giue light vnto all them that come into the house euen so a Minister and Pâ—â—â—cher of God his word is not ordeyned for any other ende but that he should shine before men in true doctrine and good maners Hereby it appeareth how fondly some Papists would seeme to proue out of this place that the Church must alwayes be visible when the wordes are not applyed to the Church but to the ministers thereof I know some of the doctors expound this place otherwise but the context of the wordes doth plainely confute their error 9 Hortus conclusus AS a gardeÌ„ or orchard walled in or inclosed with hedges is more estemed of the owner theÌ„ great broad fieldes and the trees and flowers that growe therein are preserued and kept more safely then such as are wilde and grow abroad right so the Church of Christ seuered from the rest of the world though it be small in compasse yet is it more estemed of him then all the world beside But the Church of Rome which will not be enclosed with the walls or hedges of God his word but wandreth at large after her owne inuentions can not be called the inclosed garden of Christ 10 Fons signatus THe true Church of Christ is also compared to a spring or founteine which is shutte in or sealed vppe from the prophane waters of worldly vanities ministring the water of life to all the children of god But as for the popish church which ishueth out of the bottomles lake is a stincking puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cupp full Apoc. 17. out of which all nations haue dronk Apoc. 18. So farre is it that she should be a well sealed vp by Christ 11 Sponsa Agni THe description of the Spouse of the Lambe set forth in S. Iohns Reuelation doth in all pointes most aptly agree vnto our holy Church and congregation But the popish church which is not content to be clothed in that white shining silke which is the IustificatioÌ„ of Saincts made white in the blood of the Lambe but with the filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Esay 64. is no Spouse of Christ but the darling of the deuill 12 Mulier amicta Sole NO place in all the scripture doth more plainely set forth the estate of our Church than this 12. of the Apocalyps She is clothed with the sunne of righteousnesse Iesus Christ which is her bewtie She treadeth vnder her feete the Moone of mutabilitie changeablenesse and inconstancie she is crowned with 12. starres which is the doctrine of the 12. Apostles the worde of god She is alwaies fruitefull and persecuted by the deuill and his members but yet by Christ defended protected and prouided for in all daungers and aduersities But the church of Rome is that whore of Babylon clothed in purple and scarlet golde precious stones and perles described Apoc. 17. sitting vpon the beast with seuen heades which are the seuen hilles and is the great cytie that had dominion ouer the kinges of the earth 13 Habitatio fratrum in vnum ALthough this saying be not proper nor peculiar vnto the Church onely but common to euery societie and fellowship

AN ANSVVER OF A TRVE CHRISTIAN TO THE PROVDE CHALLENGE OF A counterfet Catholike By VVilliam Fulke Doctor in diuinitie Imprinted at London by Thomas Vautrollier dwelling in the Blacke Friers 1577. To the Christian Reader THIS short treatise gentle Reader hath lyen by me neare hand or altogether tenne yeres space vvritten at the request of a godly learned friend of myne in aunsvver to a proud challenge of a Papist against the Protestant VVhich though at the first and many yeares after I determined not to publish supposing the same challeÌ„ge to haue ben priuate or in fevve mens handes yet novv of late that I haue seene it in diuerse godly gentlemens handes to vvhom it hath bene deliuered by Papistes belike to peruert them and of vvhom also I haue bene desired to auÌ„svver it and am further credibly informed that the same is in print esteemed of many ignorant Papistes to be so vnansvverable that although it hath bin protested by gentlemen of great vvorship and credit that they haue seene the auÌ„svvere therof in vvriting yet they vvil not beleue that any man dare set his penne to the paper once to attempte the matter I haue novve thought good to put it in print as it vvas vvritteÌ„ at the first Nothing douting by Gods help but I shall be able to stand to the defence if the Challenger vvill proceede to mainteyne his challenge any longer And vvhereas the same of late hath bene ioyned vvith my confutation of the doctrine of purgatory and yet is desired of many to be set forth in seuerall because the argument is more generall it is thought good to satisfie their desire to spare their exspenses that being resolued in the matter of purgatory doe yet stagger in the challenge of the Church The breuity that I haue vsed as I vnderstand is misliked of some men vvhich vvoulde haue vvished a larger discourse but seeing the Challenger requireth shortnes if this that is vsed be sufficient to satisfie his demaunds or any of them a longer treatise vvere but superfluous If he thinke him selfe not throughly aunsvvered declare the same in all or in part that vvhich is novve omitted shall then God vvilling be supplied In the meane time vse this gentle Reader and fare vvell in the Lorde The faultes of this impression are thus to be amended The first figure signifieth the page the second the line Pag. 3. line 35. Lithuania reade Lithuanda 5.3 vvriting r. vvritinges 10.10 the scripture reade the booke of scripture 13.17 then reade thou and line 19. you reade thou 15. line the laste Tâ—â—erius reade Liberius 19.4 you reade the and line 10. Ca. line 58. reade Carolines 8. and line 19. Mercamas r. Marranias 22.9 fauour reade honor â—3 26 the prince reade the printers 24.1 put out and. 25.9 not for his r. for his 29.10 vnitie of minde r. vnitie of faith minde 30.3 in the places aboue rehearsed in diuerse places of his epistles a. lib. 3. epist. 14. and 15.16 c. 41.30 Rhenes r. Rhemes 49.5 the the r. that the. the 12. r. the Catho c. 52.13 in Brytish reade in the Brytish 63.14 about the articles r. about the chiefest articles 64.20 put out that hilde and the 24. here rea sore 67.21 vvhich can not rea vvhich you can not 68.4 in a name reade in a manner 69.4 prorsus opinemur r. prorsus non opinemur and 34. vniuersally r. vniuersalitie and 36 vvhich you do r. vvhich you do not 70.17 proponeÌ„da r. praeponeÌ„da 22. in a r. in the. 24. vvhen r. vvheÌ„ the. 71.20 vvhere rÄ™a vvere and the 22. to reade in 78.26 that you savv a bastard church r. that you being a bastard church haue 87.34 Commentualls rea Conuentualles 91.32 that he rea then he 92.30 cultiued r. coÌ„tinued 97. â— your reade youres 99.13 there rea therefore 14. vinci reade vâ—icÃ¨ AN ANSVVER OF A TRVE CHRISTIAN TO A COVNTERFAIT CATHOLIKE The proposition of the Aduersarie CHrist did commit at his departure hence the testimony of that truth for which he died and the conuersion of the Nations to the beleefe in him to the true church of God which then stoode principally and almost onely in the persons of the Apostles and a fewe more that by their preachings and those afterward of their calling the Christian religion might be planted in all Nations beginning at Ierusalem and so proceeding to the coastes and corners of the earth AN ANSVVERE TO THE PROPOSITION I Graunt that our Sauiour Christ at his departure hence commaunded his Apostles as principal members of his Church though not the greatest part of it to preach the doctrine which he confirmed by his death vnto all nations beginning at Ierusalem and so forth according to his saying Goe therefore and teach all Nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost Teaching them to obserue all thinges what so euer I haue commaunded you Matth. 28. Whereuppon I chalenge the Papist that if he be able to proue that the doctrine of poperie is all that trueth and nothing but that trueth for which Christ dyed and which he commaunded the Apostles to teach I will acknowledge the popish church to be the Church of Christ The first article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 First I aske of the protestant what Church that was which conuerted all these cuntries that be now Christian to the faith of Christ IF you meane by Christians true Christians and by the faith of Christ the true faith of Christ I answere only the true Church of Christ hath had the worde of God and sacraments as meanes which God vseth to subdue al nations vnto the obedience of the faith as was the primitiue Church of the Apostles which hath continued vnto this daye by succession not of personnes and places but of faith and truth wherefore if the Papist can proue that we holde not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ But if by Christians and Christian faith you meane all them that professe the name of Christ in the whole worlde I aunswere that the true Church of Christ did not conuert them all for in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the false apostles which taught circumcision and obseruation of the lawe in which heresie they continue vnto this day and it is manifest by all histories that the nations of the Alanes Gothes and Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians 2 And let him shew vnto me that euer his Church conuerted any people or lande in the earth from Idolatrie or Gentility or Iudaisme to the true Religion of Christ or that this his fayth was taught to any Nation in steede of true Christianity VVE are members of that Church which conuerted all landes in the earth that are conuerted from Idolatry Gentility Iudaisme or heresie to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme

that the Apostles taught none other faith in steede of true Christiantie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the worde of God And at this daye the most parte of Europe is conuerted from Idolatrie heresie and Antichristianitie vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland France Germany Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaigne and Italie a great numbre vnder persecution and tyrannie Also of the Iewes no small numbre are conuerted to our religion since the rising vp of the Gospell in our dayes 3 Or any Church but the common Catholike Church to haue don that and I recant BEcause you meane by the common Catholike not the true Catholike but the popish church First I denie that euer the popish church conuerted any people to the true faith Secondly I denie that the popish church hath conuerted all nations to the profession of Christ For it is shewed before that the false Apostles and Arians conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name but yet to false religion And it is also manifest by histories that the Grecians whome the papistes counte no parte of their church but schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all vnto the profession of the name of Christ which yet continue in their religion being neither the true faith nor yet popish religion As for the popish church as it is certeine that it hath peruerted and corrupted all partes of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion so it shal be harde for the papistes to proue that it hath conuerted any Nation from Gentility to the popish religion except some partes of Germanie and them by force of armes rather than by preaching and teaching as appeareth by the conuersion of Liuonia Anno Domini 1200. of Prussia Anno Domini 1254. and of Lithuania Anno Domini 1386. wherefore I conclude that seeing I haue shewed that our Church holding the true doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all nations to true religion and that the popish church hath not conuerted any people to true religion nor all people to the profession of the name of Christ this chalenger whosoeuer he be do the recant The second article conteyneth 4. demandes 1 I aske of him what Church it was which hath induced the Christian people through the whole worlde to geue most humble credit in all points to the holy bookes of the Byble I Aunswere it was the Church of Christ and not the Popish church which hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleued of all true Christians where soeuer they be although it be the office of the holy Ghost to open the hartes of men and to forme them that they may beleue the scripture to be true like as it is the office of the scripture or worde of God to trie and examine whether it be the spirite of God that perswadeth vs to beleue any thing so the spirite beareth witnesse to the worde and the worde to the spirite As for the popish church it coulde not induce the Christian people to geue credit to the scripture in all pointes because she is contrarie to the scripture in many pointes and euen in the cheefest pointes of Christian Religion namely in pointes concerning the glorie of God and the saluation of mankinde geuing the glory of God to dead men and dumbe Images and denying the mercy of God pourchased by the onely sacrifice of Christes death to be the onely cause of mans saluation Finally seeing it is manifest by the aunswere to the first article that the popish church did not conuerte all nations to the profession of the Christian faith it is euident thereby that the popish church did not induce all them that are called Christians to geue credit to the bookes of the holy Bible as this chalenger woulde haue it to be thought 2 VVhat Church hath had the discerning seuering of them from other writinges of all sortes THe Church of Christ hath not an absolute authority to allow or refuse bookes of the scripture but a iudgment to discerne true writinge from counterfaicts the word of God of infallible verity from the writing of men which might erre this iudgement she hath not of her selfe but of the holy Ghost as for the popish Church it can not be said to haue this iudgemeÌ„t of discerning the scripture of God from other writings not only because she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonical bookes of the scripture from the Apocrypha writings as appereth by receauing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. but also because she is so presumptuous as to compel men to beleue that Customes and traditions writinges of doctors decrees of Popes and Councells are equall with the authoritie of God his worde yea are of force to alter and change the lawe of God and the institution of Christ set forth vnto vs in the scripture And although she boast that she receaueth all the bookes of scripture yet this proueth no more that she is the Church of Christ than was the churches of the Arrians Donatistes Nouatians Euthychans other heretikes which receiued the Bible as well as the Popish church 3 VVhat Church hath had the custodie of them and most safely hath preserued them for the necessary vse of God his people and from the corruption of aduersaries as well of Iewes as heretikes of all sortes THe prouidence of God hath alwayes preserued the Scripture both from the violence of tyrants from the falshoode of heretikes and hath neuer suffred the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse thereof But the popish church hath not kept the scripture for the necessary vse of the people which hath so kept it in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse much lesse the necessary vse thereof wherefore if this be a note of the Catholike Church to kepe the worde of God for the necessarie vse of God his people it is plaine that the popish church is not the Catholike Church which hath kept the scripture so that God his people coulde haue no vse thereof And if the only custodie of the scripture from corruption of heretikes be a sure note of the Church why is not the Greeke Church the Catholike Church which vnto this day hath kept the scripture as safely as the popish church why are not other Estern Churches of Asia which neuer acknowledged the Pope or popish religion true Churches which likewise haue preserued the scripture as we haue seen of late that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at themperours charges for the encrease of Christian faith among them And finally why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully than euer the Papistes And because they boast of safe preseruing of the scriptures

rather to seeke her in his words which is the Truth and best knoweth his owne body So the question is at this daye betwen the Papistes and vs where the church is let vs seeke in God his worde there we shall easily finde her To the same intent he speaketh in the third fiueth and sixtenth Chapters of the same treatise Furthermore that he woulde haue heretikes confuted onely by the scriptures he sheweth likewise in many places of his workes for writing against Maximinus the Arian lib. 3. cap. 14. a place commonly and often cited he sayeth but nowe neither must I preiudicially bring forthe the Councell of Nice nor then the Councell of Arimine for neither am I bounden to the authoritie of the one nor you of the other but let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason contend by authoritie of the scriptures not proper to any but indifferent witnesses to both partes If Augustine would not oppresse the Arrians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the scriptures how much lesse woulde he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy scriptures And in his booke De Vnitate Ecclesiae against the Donatistes the 16 chapter Sed vtruÌ„ ipsi Ecclesiam teneant non nisi diuinarum scripturarum Canonicis libris ostendant quia nec nos c. But whether they holde the church or no let them shew none other wise but by the canonicall bookes of holy Scripture for we our selues doe not say that men ought to beleue vs that we are in the Church because we holde that Church which Optatus of Mileuitum or Ambrose of Millayn or innumerable other Byshops of our communion haue commended to vs or because it is set forth by the Councels of our felowe byshops or because so many myracles of hearing requests or healinges are don in the holy places which our fellowship doth frequent in the whole worlde so that the bodies of Martyrs which were hidden so many yeares which thinge if they will aske they may heare of many were reuealed vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodies one that had bene many yeares blinde very well knowen in the citie of Millayn receyued his eyes and eye sight either because this man dreamed or that man was rauished in the spirite and hearde a voice that he should not ioyne himselfe to Donatus or that he shoulde departe from the faction of Donatus for when soeuer such thinges are don in the Catholike Church they are to be allowed because they are don in the Catholike church but the church it selfe is not therfore proued to be Catholike because these thinges are done in it By this Augustine declareth first that heretikes must be confuted onely by the scriptures and secondly that neither Councells succession of byshops vniuersality miracles visions dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike church but onely the scriptures Moreouer in his booke De Pastoribus cap. 14. Quaerit infirmus Ecclesiam c. A weake person seeketh the Church he wandreth and seeketh the church what sayest you The church is of Donatus side Enquire for the shepheards voice Reade me this out of some Prophet reade me this out of some Psalme rehearse me it out of the lawe rehearse it out of the Gospell rehearse it out of the Apostle out of them do I rehearse the Church dispersed ouer all the worlde And a litle after Tu accusas non Euangelium c. Thou accusest not the Gospell thou accusest not the Prophet not the Apostle of whome this voyce speaketh to me I beleue him other I beleue not But thou wilt bring forth decrees I will also bring forth decrees shoulde I beleue thine beleue thou mine likewise I beleue not thine neither do thou beleue mine then let mens writings be layd away and let Gods worde sounde betwen vs bring me one place of scripture for Donatus side c. These places maye sufficiently declare by what meanes this doctor thought the Church shoulde ouerthrowe heresies namely by the worde of God onely which thing also Leo the first byshop of Rome in his epist. 10. ad Fabianum contra Eutychen plainely confesseth saying Sed in hanc insipientiam cadunt qui cum ad cognoscendam veritatem c. But those men fal into this foly which when they are hindred by any doubt to knowe the trueth haue not recourse to the voyces of the Prophets not to the writings of the Apostles not to the authoritie of the Gospell but to them selues And therefore they become maisters of error because they haue not bene schollers of trueth Of the same iudgement was the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt as appeare Actione 18. Si igitur omnes simpliciter c. Therefore if all men from the beginning woulde haue simply and without subtiltie taken vpon them the preaching of the Gospell and haue bene content with the constitutions of the Apostles suerly matters shoulde haue bene well and in good case neither shoulde painefull contention haue bene exercised against the authors of heresies nor against the fauorers of priests Here the Councell confesseth that the heretikes and schismatikes grow so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospell and authority of the scriptures Thus I haue declared by example and authority of these Fathers that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all heretikes onely by the scripture 2 And what Church it was that hath alwayes stande still and stedfast whilest all other Congregations as well of Arrians as Anabaptistes Aerians Nouatians Vigilantians Iouinians and the rest haue decaied THe true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast and vnseparable from Christ her heade when all heretikes haue bene and shal be confounded But the true Church hath not alwaies florished in wordly peace and tranquilitie for vntill the tyme of Constantine the great which was Anno Dom. 339. the Church had small rest from cruell persecution in most places and soone after againe vnder the Emperors Constantius Constans and Valons it was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius what time also Tiberius Bishop of Rome was infected with the same heresie After that when Iulianus the Apostata was Emperor the temples of Idolls were opened and gentilitie againe restored so that the Church suffered great detriment To be short when the barbarous Goathes Vandales Alanes and other Idolatrous or heretical nations destroyed the Empire the Church of God suffered a great Ecclipse But when Mahomet in the East Antichrist the Pope in the West seduced the world with most detestable heresie then was fulfilled that which was reuealed to S. Iohn in the 12. of the Apocalyps the woman clothed with the Sonne which you your self confesse to be the Church was so persecuted by the Dragon that she fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season Where she hath not decayed but ben always

The 7. article conteineth 3. demaundes 1 Further I aske them what Church that is which hath brought forth out of her wombe so many noble personages of Martyrs Confessors Doctors Virgines and holy Sainctes of all sortes all which both they and we doe outwardly professe by the continuance of the Callendare which yet is vsed euery where to be Sainctes in heauen FVrther I aunswere you that all true Sainctes whether they were Patriarches Prophets Apostles EuaÌ„gelistes Martyrs Confessors Doctors Scholars Virgins wiues widowes married or vnmarried are all children of that Church in whose fellowship we reioyce to be and are our deare brethren and sistern begotten in Iesu Christ by the gospell and we all hold of one head Iesus Christ as members of his mysticall body We all beleue to be receaued into that glory that they are by the onely meane that they were that is by the mercie of God in Christ Iesus But as for the continuance of the Callendar we haue litle respect vnto it yea no regard at all to vse it either as a recorde or as a register of those whom we acknowledge to be Sainctes in heauen Let the Prince make you aunswere for the continuance of such calleÌ„ders for we haue not to do with them Neuerthelesse because you speake of a Callendar that is vsed euery where you declare that you haue small experience in Callendars for euery cuntry hath them diuers in most dayes except holy dayes and in some cuntry Callendars such dayes are festiuall to those Saincts that haue not their names in Callendars of other cuntries yea it may be doubted whether they haue their names in the booke of life If you sawe a Bohemians Callendar perhaps if you shoulde see Iohn Hus and Ierom of Prage which your church condemned for heretikes and haue as solemne feastes in the Callender as Peter and Paule wherefore we acknowledge those to be Sainctes in deede not whose names are continued in the Callendars of men but are written in the booke of life of the Lambe that was slaine from the beginning of the worlde Apoc. 13. 2 And if it can be proued by any man of the Protestancy that these were either of the Protestants Congregation or beleefe when they were aliue IT is sufficiently proued against you of the Papistrie that all they whome we acknowledge to be Sainctes in heauen are members of the same mysticall bodie of Christ that we are and hold the onely foundation that we hold which is Iesus Christ and although some of them builded straw and stubble vpon the same foundation yet the Lorde hath not imputed it unto them But wheras the Patriarches Prophetes and Apostles were cheefe lightes and pillers of the church of Christ the daye is yet to come and euer shal be that all you of the Papistrie shal be able to charge vs with one pointe of our faith contrary to the doctrine of the Patriarches Prophetes and Apostles 3 Or canonized and allowed for Sainctes by the Protestantes Church when they were deade or by any other Church then I recant OVr Church doth take all them that shew the fruicts of a liuely faith to be Sainctes while they be aliue as well as after their death and we say with Dauid All my delight is in the Sainctes that are in the earth Psal. 16. and with S. Paule VVe labour to comprehend with all Sainctes what is the length breadth depth and heigth and to know the loue of Christ Ephes 3. Finally the scripture teacheth vs to call all them that are sanctified in the bloude of Christ and called to the felowship of the Gospell holy and Sainctes of God. 1. Cor. 1. Ephes 1. c. Wherefore your Popish church doth great iniury to the Sainctes of God first because she doth not so accompt them while they liue and secondly because she referreth the canonization of them only to the Pope who not for their holy life maketh them Sainctes but for the holy honger of golde as appeare by Pope Iuly 2. who woulde not canonize king Henry the sixt at the request of king Henry the seuenth vnder an vnreasonable summe of money If that summe of money had bene paide he shoulde haue bene a sainct though he had not deserued not for his vertue And because that summe of money was not paide he might not be canonized although his godlinesse neuer so much deserued Againe of what force your Canonization is to be esteemed we may learne by a fact of Pope Boniface the 8. who condemned digged vp and burned the bodie of Hermannus in Ferraria 30. yeares after his buriall who had bene worshipped for a sainct aboue 20. yeares before as witnesseth Platina and other Gregorie the seuenth canonized Pope Liberius which was an Arrian as S. Hieronym testifieth Moreouer if I shoulde likewise demande of you what Pope canonized Peter Paule and the rest of the Apostles yea most of the Martyrs of the primitiue Church you shall neuer be able to shew me either what Pope did it or that any Pope did it For seeing none may canonize but the Pope in your church and you can not proue that the Pope hath canonized the Apostles and cheefe Martyrs you can not proue that your church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs But it is manifest that your canonization is taken from the heathen Senate of Rome which chalenged authority to make Gods whome they them selues thought best And if I shoulde rippe vp the most parte of those Sainctes which haue bene canonically canonized by the Pope it were an easie matter to finde them heretikes traitors Necromancers Whoremongers and whores as you may reade in Bales Votaries aboundantly beleuing his reporte no farther than he alleageth his Author where you maye finde it Wherefore it were wisedome for you not to depend vpon the Pope his Canonization but vpon God his approbation and to recante The 8. article conteyneth 3. demandes 1 And because Christ as S. Paule sayeth hath established in his Church some Apostles some Prechers some Teachers and Doctors euen vntill his comming againe I aske the Protestant what Church that is which is able to shew proue the continuance and vse of the saide functions euer sence Christes time by plaine accompt of orderly Succession I Aunswere the Papist that Christ hath geuen to his Church some Apostles some Prophetes some Euangelistes some Pastors and Teachers Ephes 4. and 1. Cor. 12. And we are able to shew proue that we continue in that vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God for which ende such offices were ordeyned But whereas you require that we should shew you the continuance of those functions by orderly succession from Christes his time vntill our dayes you declare how small skill you haue in vnderstanding the scriptures for the offices of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes were not appoincted to continue alwayes in the Church but for a time vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the worlde Moreouer whereas you requier an orderly

for offenders THey did vse such discipline as was vsed in S. Cyprians time when persecution hindered not the free course of it As he doth often complaine in the places aboue rehearsed They did admonish secretly before witnesses and when persecution stayed them not they did also excommunicate 3 To whome they did preach their Fayth TO such as woulde geue them hearing as VVickleue to the Englishmen Iohn Hus to the Bohemians VValdo to the Frenchmen and so of the rest 4 How did they reproue heresies THey reproued heresies by the worde of God and patient sufferinge of your tyrannie the one you may reade in their workes that are yet extant of VVickleue Bertrame Hus c. The other in histories of your owne writers 5 VVhere did their principall Pastors sit in Iudgement I Might aske you where the Apostles did sit in iudgement and you are neuer able to shew me for I reade as one sayth that they stoode often to be Iudged but I neuer reade that they sat in iudgement vpon others And so I aunswere of the principall Pastors of our Church especially in time of persecution 6 VVhere did they gather as in Councells to try the trueth of doubtfull matters AS God gaue them respight from your tyrannie they had conference one with an other and as for doubtes they tried them by the worde of God and not by number of voyces as you do in your councells as for the places where they met is nothing at all materiall at Prage at Lyons at Merindol c. 7 How might Christian men iustly offended with some of their brethern haue sought out your officers or Congregation to make complainct of him YOu are void of all reason that in a persecuted church will require all thinges to be so formall and orderly as in time of peace and quietnes I could choke you with putting like cases of your Church If a number of Papistes be carried prisoners into Barbarie or Turkey what Sacraments what discipline what Iudgement haue they among them if one be offended with his brother how shall he come to your officers or to your Church to complaine In such cases where the ordinary authoritie of the Church is hindred by persecution or otherwise the rule of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. may serue and ought to be obserued If any that is called a brother be a fornicator or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkard or an extorcioner with such one eate not So that if a Christian be iustly offended with his brother he ought to absteine from his company And if he may haue ordinary authoritie he may complaine further 8 Or how if it had liked any man to haue ben baptized of them or to haue receiued the communion of them or to haue bene married of them or to haue ioyned them selues in Fayth and Religion to them how might I say that secret contemptible and vnknowne company be founde in this case HE must haue sought them out as well as he could if he had bene perswaded that they onely ministred the Sacraments Ecclesiasticall rites sincerely according to the word of God it were no great matter for him to find them seing he knew by whom he was so perswaded and of them might also be informed where he should haue them I maruell you are not ashamed to demauÌ„d these questions as though it were materiall to discusse whether of vs hath the Church to haue the Church so manifest that euery man may see it Doe you not remember how many schismes haue bene euen in the popish church more theÌ„ twenty and sometime two Popes at once sometime three sometime fower which of them should a simple Papist take for head of the Church especially in the 22. schisme which lasted 39. yeares one Pope sitting at Rome an other at Auinion either hauing his court either hauing and making Cardinals either cursing other Or in the 23. schisme when the question was of one of the highest pointes in all popery and is not yet throughly decided among them Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councell aboue the Pope In the time of these schismes how might a man haue founde out which was the true Church which was Christes vicare in earth which had the right Sacraments and Sacramentalls to which Popes court should he appeale where did the principall Pastors sit in iudgement c. How should councells be gathered which Pope shoulde confirme their actes c When you are able to aunswere these questions for your owne church then you may better require them of ours As for that secrete contemptible and vnknowne company of our Church in the sight of the world was neuerthelesse manifest glorious and knowen to our Sauiour Christ and the liuely members of his body 9 If therefore you can shew me that any man euer sought Iustice or knowledge of trueth sacrament or faith or any helpe of Saluation at the Protestants secret and close congregation or any other where but of Gods knowen Catholike Church I recant ALthough it be to litle purpose to aunswere this demande because it is no reason to say these thinges hath not bene because chronicles make no mention of them yet that all men maye see how farre you ouershoot your selfe I wil partely satisfie your request Charles the great sought knowledge of the trueth of the sacrament of Bertramus Iohn Duke of Lancaster and diuers other noble men were instructed in our Religion by VVickleue The land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieronym of Prage and sought the sacraments of them Finally you alwayes forget the Greeke church which you do not accompt parte of the Catholike church and yet you can not deny but men haue sought Iustice sacramentes faith c. of it Therefore if a man might trust you vpon your worde you recant The 10. article conteyneth in effect but 2. demandes 1 Moreouer I aske whether for all these many hundreth of yeares or euer els before there was any temporall Prince or Potentate that offered to be vnder God a minister of Iustice and an executor of Christian lawes in the right of your Congregation that euer maintained by lawes Ciuill or other your Faith and Congregation and I recant BEfore the general defection it is an easy matter to name you the Emperours and Princes which both offered to be ministers of Iustice in the right of our church and also mainteyned our faith and Congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the greate Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers other But when the kinges of the earth had committed fornication with the great whore of Babylon as the holy Ghost foresheweth Apoc. 17. and 18. it is no preiudice to our cause if we can not shew any of them that haue mainteined our Religion Yet because you make so gentle an offer vpon the triall of such a matter which is of small force either to the hurt of our cause or the

maintenance of yours I will let you vnderstande what I haue reade for this purpose Not doubting but other which haue reade much more and seene more auncient histories than I can shew you a great deale more I passe ouer as to well knowen how many of the Grecian Emperors resisted the setting vp of Images in so much that in the Greeke church to this daye they can abide none in their temples likewise I passe ouer Charles the great who wrote a booke against Images which is in printe who also declared that he liked not the heresie of the reall presence and transubstantiation which in his time was in forging in that he called Bertrame to declare his minde of that matter as appeareth by his booke which is also in printe I will not rehearse those princes that contrary to the Popes lawes defended their priestes that were maried For although these and such like defended some parte of the trueth which we holde against you yet lest you should obiect it was but in some one or two pointes I passe them ouer with silence But VVickleue I wene you will not deny but he was of our Church and Religion And I reade that king Edward the third both in his Parliament holden Anno Domini 1371. and at other times with diuers other noble men defended his cause in so much that so long as he liued all the popish byshops coulde do him no harme yet did he openly inueigh against the Pope calling him Antichrist and all popish doctrine without any couller or dissimulatioÌ„ both in the vniuersitie of Oxeford where he was reader and also in his sermons abroade as appeareth by his bookes and English homilies which yet are coÌ„mon to be seene w vnlesse he had bene supported and maintained by the kinge and other potentates coulde neuer haue continued so long as he did Further haue you not hearde of Zisca and Procopius two mighty Capitaines which defended the Bohemians from the tyrannie both of the Emperour the Pope and almost all the Princes of Germanie For what cause did Paule the second Anno Domini 1466. condemne George a noble and a worthy Prince king of Bohemia for an heretike and depriued him of his kingdome was it not for defending the Protestantes in his dominion Thus you see that some Princes and Potentates haue not onely offered but haue in deed taken in hand to defend our church which you thought vnable to be shewed wherfore I chalenge your promise you must recante The 11. article is so confuse that it is harde to bring it into any certeine numbre of demandes 1 Againe I requier of the Protestants to declare by good histories or by reasonable likelihoode when the true church as they compt theirs decayed I Answer euen in the Apostles time there arose many heresies which did not a litle trouble the Church but immediatly after the Apostles time while the fathers of the church were earnestly occupied in resisting of horrible heresies by the craft of Satan some errors and abuses crept into the true Church of Christ which at the first because they were small and men occupied in greater matters were either not espied or not regarded as may be knowen by the writinges of Iustinus Martyr and Irenaeus two of the most auncient writers sence the Apostles time Iustinus was in this error that he thought that the Angells lusted after women and therefore were turned into Deuills It seemeth also that the Church in his time was in some error about second mariages and diuorcements Irenaeus affirmeth that our Sauiour Christ liued here 50. yeares which he sayeth was receyued of them that heard it euen of the Apostles mouthes Also both he and Papias which was before him and was the disciple of S. Iohn are charged by S. Ieronym in Catalogo Script Eccl to haue held this error that Christ should raigne a thousand yeares after the Resurrection here in the flesh whereby it is manifest seeing these auncient fathers and pillers of the Church were thus stayned with errors that the Church in their time could not be free from the same And so it is euident that the true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles times 2 VVhat yeare the Religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled ALthough many abuses and corruptions were entred into the church of Christ immediatly after the Apostles time which the deuill planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist Yet we may well say that the religion of the Papistes came in and preuailed that yeare in which the Pope first obteyned his Antichristian exaltation which was in the yeare of our Lord 607. when Boniface the third for a great summe of mony obteyned of Phocas the trayterous murtherer and adulterous Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church Since that time that deuilish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yeare of our Lord 1414. in which the Councell of Constance decreed to robbe the people of the Sacrament of Christ his blood From this time it hath againe decaied being mightely subdued by the bright beames of the Gospell shining in the world and at the length shall be vtterly destroyed 3 VVhether all their true Church was so soundly sleeping that none could preach against it as it first entred WHen the coÌ„ming of Antichrist was in all power of lying signes and wonders in so much that if it were possible the very elect should be deceiued and a general departing from the faith was foreshewed and the Church to be driuen into the wildernes what maruell were it if none of our Church could preach against it as it first entred yet because you speake of the first entring of popish religion which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie you shall heare that when it first began to aduaunce it selfe there wanted not some either to preach or write against it When Victor bishop of Rome about the yeare of our Lord 200. passed the bondes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia many bishops withstoode him and especially Irenaeus bishop of Lyons and Policrates of Ephesus as witnesseth Eusebius libro 5. cap. 25. Eccle. S. Cyprian also reproueth Cornelius bishop of Rome for that he was moued by threatning of heretikes to receiue their letters did not send them backe into Africa to their own bishop lib. 1. Ep. 3. Also when Stephanus bishop of Rome was bold to communicate with Basilides and Martialis two Spamards that were iustly excommunicated and deposed by the bishops of their owne prouince sought to restore them Cyprian and his felow bishops of Aphrica being required to giue their aduise gaue counsell that in no wise they shoulde be receiued not a litle blaming Stephanus that beinge far of and ignorant of their cause he would take vpon him to defend such wicked men lib. 1. Ep. 4. Likewise when the same Stephanus threatned excommunication to Helenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches

vnderstand what is sayd By this Canon it is euident that at this time the people vnderstood the Latine tongue though it were very rude and rustical And where the Canon prescribeth the same homilies to be translated either into the rude latine tongue or into the Theotisce tongue Although this word Theotisca seeme to be corrupted yet it is most certeine that they meant Dutch tongue for as much as Carolus magnus had a great part of Germanie vnder his dominion and the Germanes as neuer throughly subdued by the Romanes neuer throughly receiued the latine tongue Yet it is manifest that they vnderstoode their common prayer in the latine tongue though not perfectly because the Canon sayth Quo facilius c. That all men may more easely vnderstand signifying that they vnderstood the pure latine tongue though hardely and not perfectly About the yeare of our Lorde 813. the knowledge of the latine tongue beganne more and more to weare awaye from amongest the common people which when the bishops perceiued they decreed in the Councell of Magunce cap. 25. that euery Sondaye and holy daye there shoulde be a sermon in such sorte that the common people might vnderstand it and in the 45. Canon they decreed that euery Christian shoulde learne the Creede and the Lorde his prayer Et qui aliter non potuerit vel in sua lingua hoc discat that is And he that can not yet let him learne it in his owne tongue Whereby they declare that they desier to reteine the latine tongue still but rather than the people shoulde be ignorant they commande them to learne their prayers and beleefe in their mother tongue Also by the 43. Canon wherein they iudge that no preeste can saye Masse alone it appeareth that the people commonly vnderstood the latine seruice for they aske how he shoulde saye Dominus vobiscum and admonish the people to lifte vp their heartes and diuers like sayinges where there is none by him but him selfe Nowe if the people vnderstoode not these sayinges it were all one whether they were present or absent Also in the Councell of Rhenes holden in Fraunce about the same time the like decree was made cap. 15. that bishops studie to preache sermons and homelies of the holy fathers so that all men maye vnderstand according to the property of their tongue Finally in the Councell of Laterane holden vnder Pope Innocent the third Anno Dom. 1215. in which Councell transubstantiation was first established the 9. chapter it was plainely decreed that forasmuch as within one citie and diocesse people of diuers languages be mingled together hauing vnder one Faith diuers rites and maners we streightly commande that the bishops of such cities and diocesses prouide able men which according to the diuersitie of their rites and languages celebrate vnto them the diuine seruice and minister the sacramentes instructing them both by worde and example Hereby it appeareth that when the latine tongue was either almost or altogether growen out of the common peoples vnderstandings order was taken that common prayers should be sayed and sacramentes ministred in the mother tongue of euery nation But the bishops which shoulde haue seene it put in execution either negligently omitted it or willingly refused to doe it because it was more for their profit to kepe the people in blinde ignorance So thus I haue shewed that sodenly the tongue of common prayer was not altered 10 Tell me what yeare of our Lorde vnder what Emperour vnder what Pope by whome these thinges were wrought vpon what occasion this marueillous mutation was made WHo can tell the originall of euery blind custome and peuish tradition of euery olde error and foolish fashion it is sufficient to shew that these thinges haue no grounde in the scripture of God they were not taught by Christ and his Apostles nor receiued in the church that followed immediatly after them and then we are bolde to say with Tertullian This preiudice there is against all heresies how soeuer they came vp or when soeuer they sprange vp That is true that was first and that is false that is latter therefore from the beginning it was not vsed to praye for the deade nor to the deade from the beginning common prayer was not in an vnknowen tongue Wherefore prayer for the deade and to the deade with prayer in a strange tongue are false when soeuer they beganne or how long soeuer they continued 11 VVho preached against it what historie maketh mention of it who of all your Pastors preached against it was God his Church so voide of the spirit of Trueth and strength that euen then when it most florished it had none that durst open against such corruption of religion as it entred in and when it might soone haue bene repressed BEfore you demande what yeare the religion of the Papistes came in and whether it came in sodenly and as though we shoulde aunswere that it came in sodainely you demande who preached against it c. This is to fight with your owne shadowe for we say not that it came in sodainely but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors especially being earnestly occupied against great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the cheefe foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters So when Satan had gotten in one foote by such craftie pollitie he neuer rested vntill he had thrust in his whole bodie with the power of Antichrist 12 If it coulde not shew me then what yeare of the Lorde this mutation was made and who of all the true preachers did with stand this doctrine SO often as you demande one thinge so often must I aunswere after one sorte this mutation was not all in one yeare nor in one hundreth yeares nor in one thousand of yeares for transubstantiation no small article of your religion was not decreed vntill the yeare of God 1215. what preachers haue withstoode your doctrine at diuers times are declared before in the aunswere to the 8. Article 2. demande 13 Or note the name of him that euer first preached any article of our doctrine and if we note you not by their names euery one of your Capitaines and the seuerall errors that they tought and the time and the yeare when they arose against the former receyued trueth and the Councells in which they were orderly condemned if I saye this can be done of your side towarde vs or if we doe it not for improofe of your Church and religion I recant I Haue noted in the answere to the 6. article 3. demande the names of diuers heretikes that first preached diuers articles of your religion and further I note vnto you Pelagius and Coelestius which tought that free will without grace coulde doe somewhat towardes eternall saluation and that grace was geuen according to merite which article you teach also with culler of a distinction

them that were baptized by you we maye likewise gather that you admit our ministration of sacraments because you doe not rebaptize them that are baptized of vs nor marrie againe those that are married in our Church wheras you compt mariage to be a sacrament so that our accepting of your doings doth no more allow your church than your accepting of our doinges doth allow our Church And as touching the sacrament of Baptisme because you reteyne the Institution in baptizing in the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost and in asmuch as the sacraments take not their effect of the minister but of God we receiue it as of other heretikes which likewise reteine the Institution Wherefore there is no cause why you shoulde thinke we allow yours to be the true Church thereby So that there is good cause why you shoulde recant The 14. article hath 5. demandes 1 Also I demande what furniture or commodity in seruing God the Christianity of any age or any part of Christendome had euer by your Congregations THe seruice of God hath small neede of furniture in outwarde thinges for God being a spirite is not worshipped with outward pompe but with spirituall and inwarde reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessary was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his successors that were of our Church before the reuelatioÌ„ of Antichrist NotwithstaÌ„ding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted than it was since Therefore it is a small reason to chalenge the Church of Christ by outwarde furniture 2 VVhat Churches did you builde for your assemblies and seruice OVr assemblies were kept in secret places long time after Christes Ascension in most cuntries that were subiect to the Romane empire Wherefore the building of materiall churches proueth nothing at all the builders to be members of the mystical Church that is the body of Christ Howbeit in such realmes and cuntries where the faith of Christ was receiued by publike authoritie as in this lande of Brytaine there were churches builded as our Chronicles declare And when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church he also builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas for our assemblies and seruice 3 VVhat Bishoprickes for the gouernment of the Church did you finde AS the church continued longe without materiall churches so also without large possessions for the lyuing of bishops yet in Brytish Church our histories make mention that the possessions and places of the Pagane Flamines and Archiflamines were conuerted to the vse of Ecclesiastical bishops and archbishops so soon as Lucius the king receiued the faith Also the same histories do testifie that when Augustine came into Britayn there were still 7. bishops and one archbishop among the Britaines And in the Romane Empier Constantinus and other Christian Emperors appointed great possessions for the mainteyning of the ministers of the Church 4 VVhat Vniuersities Schooles or Colledges did you euer erect THe Church of God hath alwayes had schooles or Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning For the first Colledges of monkes in solitary places were nothing els but Colledges of studentes that were after as occasion serued taken to serue in the Church as appereth by Chrysostome in his booke De Sacerdotio where he sheweth that Basilius who was a Monke with him was taken by violence and made a minister of the church as he him selfe was afterwarde Also in the bishops house was a colledge of studentes and our histories testifie that at Bangor in Wales was a great Vniuersitie of learned men Also of late dayes you may heare that diuerse Vniuersities Scholes and Colleges are erected by Protestants in Germanie and other contries that haue receiued the gospel As at Wittemberge Geneua Zuriche Conigsperge in Prussia c. 5 Name one Church not builded in all fashions as well for the making of the chancells the forme of the aultars the vse of the chalices the signification of the vestiments as also for the speciall intent of the builders thereof Name one of them in the whole Church of Christ either erected for your Faith Church seruice or not prepared in all sorts for catholike practises Proue vnto me that any of all those thinges were euer prouided for any other seruice and Religion then ours or that they be monuments of any other Fayth and Church then the common Catholike and I recant HEre are many wordes to litle purpose What if it were graunted that all churches that now remaine were builded by Papistes and for popish vses what had you wonne thereby The same chalenge might the Idolaters haue made to the Apostles Shew vs a temple in all the worlde that was not builded by Idolaters and to mainteyne Idolatrie Certeinly they could shew none when the Temple of Ierusalem was destroyed But for all your bragges we are able to shewe that such Churches as were builded by true Christians were not builded to such ende as yours are for they were all builded in the honour of God and the most of yours in the honour of creatures for wheras you haue one Church in the honour of Christ you haue neare a thousand in the honour of Sainctes For Basilius magnus in his 141. epistle proueth the holy Ghost to be God because he hath a Temple For Omne Templum Dei Templum est Euery temple is the temple of god Also Didymus in his booke De spiritu sancto which S. Ieronym translateth vseth the same reason and to the same purpose S. Augustine in the same matter is very plentifull as in his booke De vera Religione cap. 55 speaking of the Sainctes he sayth Quare honoramus eos charitate non seruitute nec eis templa construimus c. Wherfore we honour them with loue and not with seruice neither doe we build temples vnto them for they wil not be so honored of vs because they know that we our selues when we are good are the temples of the highest In this saying beside his iudgement for building of temples note that he will not haue Sainctes to be honored with seruice which he calleth seruitus and is the same that dulia is contrary to the Papistes which will worship them with seruice called dulia or seruitus Also in his 174 epistle to Pascentius he sayth the holy Ghost could not haue our bodies to be teÌ„ples except he were God And in his Enchiridion ad Laurentium cap. 56. he sayth howe should he not be God which hath a temple Also in the 8. booke cap. 27. De ciuitate Dei. Nec tamen nos ijsdem martyribus templa c. he sayeth Christians builde no temples vnto Martyrs which were to make them gods And in the 22 booke cap. 10. De ciuitate Dei. Nos autem Martyribus nostris non templa sicut dijs sed memorias sicut hominibus mortuis quorum apud Deum viuunt spiritus fabricamus Nec ibi erigimus altaria in quibus sacrificemus martyribus sed

vni Deo martyrum nostro sacrificium immolamus ad quod sacrificium sicut homines Dei qui mundum in eius confessione vicerunt suo loco ordine nominantur non tamen Ã sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur Deo quippe non ipsis sacrificat quamuis in memoria sacrificet eorum quia Dei sacerdos est non illorum Ipsum verÃ² sacrificium corpus est Christi quod non offertur ipsis quia hoc sunt ipsi that is We truely do not build temples to our martyrs as vnto gods but memories as vnto dead men whose soules liue with god Neither doe we there set vp aultars in which we should sacrifice vnto the martyrs but to God onely which is God both of the martyrs and of vs doe we offer sacrifice at which sacrifice they are named in their place and order as men of God which haue ouercome the world in his confession yet are they not called vpon by the Priest that doth sacrifice for he offereth sacrifice to God and not to them although he doe sacrifice in their memorie because he is the Priest of God and not of them and the sacrifice is the body of Christ which is not offered vnto them because they them selues are the same Here also beside building of churches note that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs but prayer is a sacrifice therefore it ought to be offered onely to god Secondly that Martyrs were not called vpon in tyme of the sacrifice but onely named for remembrance Thirdly that Altares were not builded in the honor of Martyrs or other Sainctes as they be in Popish churches as our Ladies altar S. Peters altar S. Laurences altar c. Fourthly that the bodie of Christ which he sayeth was the sacrifice that was offered was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall bodie because he sayeth the Martyrs and it are all one whereby it is manifest that he meaneth the sacrifice of thankes giuing offered to God for the redemption of his church by the death of Christ Wherfore if this one place were well wayed it will interpret and aunswere all places of the auncient doctors where mention is made of sacrificing the body of Christ at the time of the communion But to returne to building of churches the same Augustine contra Maximinum Arrianum Lib. Titul 11. hath these wordes Nunc si templum alicui sancto angelo excellentissimo de lignis lapidibus faceremus anathematizaremur a veritate Christi ab Ecclesia Dei quoniam creaturae exhiberemus eam seruitutem quae vni tantum debetur Deo Si ergo sacrilegi essemus faciendo templum cuicunque creaturae quomodo non est Deus verus cui non templum facimus sed nos ipsi templum sumus that is If we shoulde builde a temple of wodde and stones to any holy and most excellent Angel shoulde we not be accursed from the Trueth of Christ and from the Church of God because we should shew that seruice vnto a creature which is due onely vnto God Therefore if we shoulde be sacrileges by making a temple to any creature how is he not true God to whome we doe not make a temple but we our selues are a temple If this be true how be not the Papistes accursed from the Trueth of Christ and from the Church of God which builde and vpholde churches to Angells as S. Michaels S. Gabriels c So that to builde churches as Papistes doe is church robbing or sacrilege Furthermore whereas you will vs to name one church whose chancell is not builded in all fashions to serue poperie First it is manifest that the first Churches which were builded for Christians had not the same fashion of chancels and other partes that most churches haue in Englande for that purpose reade the Panegyricall oration made before Paulinus byshop of Tyrus Euseb lib. 10. cap. 4. In which is described the fashion of that church builded in that citie farre vnlike the moste parte of churches at this day in all partes and specially in the chaÌ„cel which was in the middest of that church a place compassed in with grates or wodden latesses called Cancelli wherof this worde chancel is deriued and the aultar stoode in the middest of it wherof some similitude remaineth yet in olde Cathedrall churches Contrariwise your chancells in most churches be at the Eastende and the aulter hard at the wall there was also but one alter in that church but you in euery church must haue many it is certaine also in their church the Ministers and Deacons stoode rounde about the table or aulter but so they can not about your aultars except some of them stande on the toppe of the wall or in the windowe Moreouer if you marke the most parte of olde churches in Englande you shall plainely see that the chancells are but additions builded sence the churches of likelihoode by the parsons that disdained to haue their place in the middest of the people as the olde manner was Also you may see some churches builded rounde as at London the Temple and an other is at Cambridge of the same fashioÌ„ And some churches haue the steple at the Est ende very vnhandsomely for placing of the roode lofte Againe many churches haue crosse Isles in which the people can not see the chancell nor the high aultar which argueth that there was no vse of such chancells when they were builded For such churches as are latelie erected haue the chancell and church all of one building and are made of such fashion that men maye see the highe aultar in euery parte of them Beside this in the Orientall church as their ceremonies are diuers from yours so no doubt the fashion of their temples differeth from yours As for chalices the church in the beginning was coÌ„tent with wodden cuppes and then came Zepherinus and brought in the vse of glasses Acacius Amidenus is commended for selling the golden and siluer vessells of the church to redeme captiues Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 21. S. Ambrose also Offic. lib. 2. cap. 8. sayth the church hath golde not to kepe it but to be bestowed for necessarie vses for which it is lawfull to breake melt and sel euen the holyest vessells of all But of your church it is true that one said of olde time ye had wodden chalices and golden priestes but now you haue golden chalices and wodden priestes your vestimentes are of as good stuffe as your chalices The olde church knew none such but as your owne Authors write when they wente to celebrate they changed the affection of their minde rather than the garmentes of their body as Antoninus witnesseth of Fulgentius Howbeit we are content that your church by her gorgeous garments as well as by other thinges shoulde declare it selfe to be that woman which is described to be clothed in purple golde perles and such like ornamentes Apoc. 17. Finally wheras you will vs to name one church that

for the speciall intent of the builders was not prepared in all sortes for Popish practises Although I could name many yet for examples sake I name Pantheon a church in Rome prepared by the speciall and onely intent of the builders for Cybelle the great mother of the gods and for all false gods of the heathen which now is called the church of Mary and Alhalowes Then this church with many other in Rome and other places being monuments of the faith and religion of the Paganes and not of yours except yours and theirs be all one as they are very like you are bounde by your promise to recant The 15. article conteyneth in effect 3. demandes 1 Againe name any one company of men in the Christen world that in all articles of Faith be in one meaning and belefe IT is an easie matter to name diuers companies agreeing in one meaning beliefe as the church of the Grecians the church of the Aethiopians the church of the Chaldeans Moscouites c. But especially the whole company of Protestantes in Europe doe agree in all necessary articles of true faith by which we are iustified 2 Or in thinges where they doubt be contented to submit their seuerall meaninge to the iudgement of their Superiours THe Greeke church in doubtes will be ruled by the Patriarch of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall churches by their cheefe Patriarches and bishops And the Protestants in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiours so farre as their superiors are ruled by Gods his worde 3 And to that communion and companie wherof they be name any companie of men agreeing and thus humbly affected in Christes Religion sauing the blessed fellowship and members of the Catholike communion and I recant TO the communion and company of the Grecians I name the Moscouites and Russians agreeing in Religion and so humbly affected and these are not of the fellowship that you call the Catholike communion Among the Protestants to the church of Saxonie I name the church of Dennemarcke or to the church of Heluetia the church of France or to the church of England the church of Scotlande but so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the Truth which must be tried onely by God his worde And seeing none of these are of the Popish communioÌ„ if your promise be any thing worth you must recant The 16. article conteyneth one demande and one chalenge Furthermore name any one man that is confessed on both sides by the iudgement of the world to be holy and learned a member of the true Church in what age soeuer you list sence Christes time and proue him to haue bene in all articles of Faith of the Protestants meaninge SEeing you geue so large scope I will name S. Paule who I thinke is coÌ„fessed on both sides to be holy and learned and a member of the true Church whome I can proue by his writinges that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it woulde requier a whole volume if I shoulde proue euery particular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaninge thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea if I bring not the aduersaries them selues to acknowledge in the ende him to be wholy against their doctrine in diuers of articles of great importance and therefore that he coulde not be of their church I recant YOu shall neuer bring vs neither in the beginning nor in the end to acknowledged that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our Faith but we agree wholy with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane will not be afraide to vtter Forasmuch as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church which was hardly kept out while they liued as we maye learne by the Epistle to the Corinthians you thinke that we dare not depende vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depende onely vppon Gods worde But where you saye there is none but he dissenteth from vs in diuers articles of great importance you saye vntruely for you are not able to proue that Iustinus Martyr or Irenaeus two of the most ancient authenticall writers that the Church next vnto the Apostles had are against vs in any point of doctrine wherein we differ from you Yet are there certaine errors in them which neither you nor we allow as is touched before in the answere to the 11. article 1. deman But they are both wholly against you in diuers articles of your doctrine and namely in transubstantiatioÌ„ which is one of the greatest articles of Poperie as Irenaeus in the 34. cap. of his 4. booke Contrahaereses Quemadmodum enim qui est a terra panis c. Euen as the breade which is of the earth after it hath receyued the inuocation of God is not now common breade but the Eucharistie or breade of thankes geuing consisting of two thinges earthly heauenly so our bodies receyuing the Eucharistie are not now corruptible hauing hope of resurrection Here you see plainely that Irenaeus affirmeth the sacrament after consecration to consist of the earthly substance of breade which maye better be vnderstoode when we know that he reasoneth against such heretikes as denied the world to be made by God saying that he woulde neuer haue made so great a mysterie of bread which is a creature of the world if the worlde had not bene made by him Iustinus in his second Apologie to the Emperour ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ c. We doe not receiue these thinges as common breade and a common cuppe but euen as Iesus Christ our Sauiour was incarnate by the worde of God and tooke vpon him flesh and bloude for our saluation So we are taught that this meate for which thankes is geuen by the worde of prayer from him of which our fleshe and bloude are nourished by transmutation is the fleshe and bloude of Iesus that was incarnate Here he plainely affirmeth that the substance of the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of our bodies Therfore it remaineth still after the consecration The other writers of later yeares as they haue some errors which neither you nor we doe allow in them so we are not afraid to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for inuocation of Sainctes prayer for the dead and diuerse superstitious and superfluous ceremonies yet not so addict to these nor ioyned with such absurdities as yours are But for the chiefe pointes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is for the honour of God the offices of Christ Redemption Iustification Satisfaction the fruites of Christ his passion Grace faith workes authoritie of God his word authoritie of

8. demandes 1 Let any Protestant in the worlde proue vnto me that their church coulde rightly be called Catholike which was so particular that no man aliue coulde name a place where any such church was WHy might not our Church when it was most hidden be as rightly called Catholike as the Church of the Apostles when it was so particular that it was coÌ„teined in the narrow bondes of Iury for it is not called Catholike because it shoulde be euery where for that it neuer was nor shal be But because that where so euer it be in partes it is one body of Christ The Popish church is not in euery parte of the worlde For Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte Many cuntries are Idolaters and the most parte of them that professe the name of Christ are not in the felowship of the Popish church And whereas you saye that no man aliue coulde name the place where it was you make an impudent lye For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enemies thereof yet was it knowen to the true members therof It was in Italie wheÌ„ Marsilius of Padua preached in France when VValdo preached at Lyons and there about In England when VVickliffe taught in Bohemia when Iohn Hus and Ieronyme of Prage did florishe 2 Or that it might be called holy which neuer had Baptisme or other sacramentes to sanctifie any of her followers withall IT had the spirite of God to sanctifie the true members of it and it had sacramentes to testifie the same Also did not the Bohemians baptise Were not pauperes de Lugduno baptised c. But if you count their Baptisme no Baptisme why did you not rebaptize in Queene Maries time all those that were baptized by our Church in King Edwards time 3 Or that it should be one which as soone as it grew vp in the world was diuided into so many sundry sectes NOne of vs will graunt you that our Church began first to grow when it was last brought to light and knowledge of the world for it hath continued euen since Christ But if there arose or were renewed many heresies with it that is no new matter but an olde practise of the deuill For as soone as the Church of Christ beganne to grow vp after his ascension euen in the Apostles time there were many sectes and heresies As the Iewes that mainteyned the lawe they that denyed the Resurrection among the Corinthians Hymenaeus and Philetus Simon Magus Cerinthus Ebion Marcion Basilides Valentinus Carpocrates c. So that there were many more heresies at the first preaching of the Gospell in and immediatly after the Apostles time then at the last restoring of the publike preaching therof vnto the worlde in our dayes And yet the Apostolike Church was one Church and so is ours at this day one and the same 4 Or that it might be called Apostolike which could neuer couÌ„t by orderly sucession from any Apostle or Apostolike man. YOu are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishoppe at Rome And then where is all your braggs of Apostolike sea and succession c. But be it that Peter was there except you proue succession of doctrine and faith as wel as succession of men your successioÌ„ is not worth a straw And our Church which holdeth all the doctrine of the Apostles and none other but the doctrine of the Apostles shall be truely called and founde the Apostolike Church when your with all her succession of Antichristes whore whoremongers heretikes Sodomites blasphemers coniurers c. shabe Apostaticall rather than Apostolicall 5 Or the secret base contemptible defaced and disordered Congregation was euer of that maiestie that it might require the obedience of all Nations HOw base and contemptible soeuer it be in the eyes of the wicked despisers of it yet did it not only require but also subdue all nations to the obedience of the Faith so many as were euer subdued in the dayes of the first Christian Emperors and before And sence when it was most defaced by the tyrannie of Antichrist it was of such maiestie that it both required and obteined the obedience of the realme of Bohemia and in processe of time hath obteined the obedience of almost all the nations of Europe If the churche of Rome reteine the like maiestie why doth it not now requier the like obedience of all nations both Christians and Turkes you will saye It requireth but it can not obteine Euen so I aunswere of our Church it hath alwayes bene worthy to requier but it hath not pleased God that it shoulde alwaies obteine 6 Or that it was euer able to gather generall Councels THe foure best generall Councells were gathered by our Church and the Emperors that were defenders of the same and not by the byshops of Rome Neither were they Presidentes in them as it is manifest that other men were Authors of the Canons or distinctions As of the Nicene Alexander Bishop of Constantinople of the Constantinopolitane Nectarius byshop of the Ephesine Cyrillus byshop of Alexandria of the Chalcedonense Anatolius of Constantinople c. and in other generall Councells where the bishop of Rome was president I aunswere as Iohn Patriarche of Antioche did in the Councell of Basile his presidence was Honoraria ad beneplacitum Concilij eis data non authoritatiua nisi ex concessione aut permissione habente vim concessionis aut ex tolerantia that is For honor sake graunted to them so long as it shoulde please the Councell and not of authority but either by graunt or permission being of the force of a graunt or els of sufferance And I conclude as he doth the Pope was neuer President either of honor or of authority but by the graunt or permission of the Councell And how is the Popish church able to gather general Councells at this daye who will come at her calling Except a few Spaniardes and a ioly company of buckram bishops of Italie generall Councells of all the worlde can neuer be gathered but either wheÌ„ there is a Monarchie or els which is not to be looked for that all the Princes of the worlde will consent together 7 Or exercise Discipline BEcause this demande hath bene aunswered so often before I will saye the lesse nowe The free course of discipline in time of persecution may be hindred As it was in S. Cyprians time when the members of the Church be dispersed but the power of discipline hath alwayes remained and when occasion serued bene executed As the Bohemians excommunicated the Adamites and the ciuill Magistrates punished them by the sworde 8 Or that these names proper by scripture and Doctors of the true Church coulde be euer chalenged by any right to their saide Congregation AS many of these names as are proper to the Church by scripture or Doctors agreeing with scripture haue bene alwayes iustly chalenged of right to perteine to our Church and Congregation I meane these 1 Corpus

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