things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
that congregation which teacheth the cōtrarie to be a false Church Hence I gather that true doctrine is a note to discerne the Church for if that be the true Church which teacheth holy doctrine then holy doctrine is onely in the church for if it be not inseperable from the same it cannot marke and chalke the Church Now by holy doctrine Christian reader I meane not that which may haue a shew of holinesse in the opinion of men but that which gods word alloweth The Pharisie may fast and make great shew of pietie The Montanists had three lents in the yeare the false Apostles did teach doctrine which had a shewe of wisdome Coloss 2.15 in voluntarie worship and humblenes of mind and in not sparing the bodie out of which we gather that pretended pietie and holines must not be made a note to discerne a Church but such holines of doctrine as Gods word doth allow for indeed that onely is holy and all other doctrine is prophane whatsoeuer shew it may haue with men The Doctor to prooue his opinion saith that the church is called holy because it professeth and teacheth nothing but that which is holy Who would thinke that a Doctor could be ignorant in his creed The church is called holy because it is washed in the blood of Christ and sanctified by his spirit The Apostle sheweth that the Church hath no wrinckle Eph. 5.27 which is as much as if he had called it holy That this is so it is plain because the triumphāt church is holy yet teacheth no doctrine this triumphant church is vnderstood in the creed as wel as the militant witnes the Papists themselues who teach also that it is called holy because it is consecrate to God But graunt him that the Church is therefore called holy because it teacheth holy doctrine doeth the Church of Rome teach such doctrine let vs see whether it be so or noe here he will not compare liues and yet he saith that Catholikes liue like Saints What Saints Catholikes are I haue shewed before to omit this then to come to his grounds He prooueth their holinesse of doctrine because Priests may not marrie This is so farre from beeing holy doctrine that it is deuillish doctrine as I will make plaine to your conscience M. Doctor The Apostles were married Euseb l. 3. 27. for Petrus Philippus liheris procreandis operam dederunt Peter and Philip did beget children Philemon if we beleeue Bellarmine was a Bishop and he had his wife Apphia as Chrysostome witnesseth The Councell of Ancyra Lib. 1. de Chr. c 27. can 10 decreeth after this manner Diaconi quicunque cum ordinantur c. Deacons whatsoeuer they be if in their ordinatiō they protest that they cānot containe if they marrie after let thē remaine in the ministerie ergo marriage is not a prophaning of orders If this Councell will not suffice Irenaeus I hope will who auoucheth that a Deacon had speciosam vxorem a beutifull wife Lib. 1. cap. 9. Lib. 2. de gest con Basil Aeneas Syluius writeth thus Id quod de vxore dicitur nihil pendo cùm non solum qui vxorem habuit sed vxorem adhuc habens queat assumi That which is obiected concerning a wife I regard not seeing not onely he which had but also he which hath one may be Pope I let passe the historie of Paphnutius Tempore cap. 14. l. 6. mentioned by Socrates and others Basilius was Ecclesiae Ancyranae Presbyter Eupsychius Cappadociae Basil was priest of Ancyra and Eupsychius of Cappadocia they ended their liues in Martyrdome and yet Eupsychius had lately taken a wife was but euen as a Bridegrome Chaeraemon a Bishoppe fledde in persecution with his wife Euseb lib. 6. cap. 41. l. 5. 21. Socrates writeth that many bishops Dum Episcopatum gerunt etiam liberos ex vxore legitima procreant whiles they are Bishops doe beget children of their lawfull wiues Spiridion was a Bishop and had a daughter Irene But heare what Bellarmine writeth he prooueth that single life is not annexed vnto orders by diuine right and therefore saith that Si liceat Sacerdotibus iure diuino habere vxores quas ante ordinationem duxerant cur quaeso etiam non licuisset Decaeli sacer etiam post ordinationem ducere If Priests by Gods word might retaine their wiues which they had before ordination why I pray you was it not lawefull to marrie after ordination also Nowe I haue prooued that Priests did retaine their wiues which they had before ordination ergo But M. Doctor if it be so holy doctrine to denie Priests lawfull marriage then what shall we say of Popes who giue dispensation in this point you knowe what your men write the Pope dispenseth against the Apostle is not this good diuinitie to teach that the Pope may dispense against holy doctrine but you like the Donatists as it seemeth hold that Quod volumus sanctum est that which we will is holy Your Inkchorne tearmes in which you flourish after this maner that the Protestants wiuing rewiuing tricke and trimme vp themselues to please the eies of their sweete hearts with their starched ruffes fine monsaches trimme tuscabonians may be doubled vpon your selues who vse all these with many moe vanities as curling the haire to please your Concubines and harlots Inde est saith Bernard quem quotidie vides meretricius nitor Serm. 33 in Cant. histrionicus habitus regius apparatus inde aurum in franis in sellis in calcaribus Thence is it as thou maiest daily see that they be trimmed like whoores attyred like plaiers serued like Princes thence is it that they were gold in their bridles saddles spurs This hath no Lutheran vttered but deuote Bernard himselfe concerning the Romish maners and that you may know the fruits of this your doctrine heare what Aeneas Syluius saith in the place before quoted Plures saluarentur in sacerdotio coniugato qui nunc in sterili Presbiterio damnantur Many might be saued in married Priesthood which now are condemned in barren Priesthood Panormitan also saith that ex lege continentiae by the lawe of continencie Priests are defiled with vnlawfull copulation but because I desire breuitie I referre you to Gildas the title of his booke i◠Acris inuectio in Ecclesiasticum ordinem a sharpe inuectiue against the Ecclesiasticall order Thus M. Doctour it had bin good for you to haue concealed this prophane doctrine of your impure priesthood You say further that the Romane religion teacheth restitution of goods wrongfully gotten so doe we teach and say with Augustine Non remittitur peccatum nisi restituatur ablatum the sinne is not forgiuen without restitution and therefore you slaunder vs most detestably saying that we leaue all at large to our followers To proceede the cathohke Romane religion teacheth obseruation of vowes and promises so doe we of lawfull vowes and promises but otherwise we say in
as hearing Gods word afflictions with other things we doe not denie them but if you vnderstand workes which deserue fauour of congruitie we reiect them as some of your owne men doe giue vs leaue to doe that which is done by your selues and indeede who can thinke that he to whome damnation is due should merit and deserue Gods grace this is madde diuinitie Augustine saith â—â— Psal Nihil boni fecisti datur tibi remissio peccatorum attenduntur opera tua inueniuntur omnia mala Thou hast done no good and remission of sinne is giuen thee thy workes are considered they are found all euill To be short saith the same father Miseretur Deus God of his great goodnesse hath mercie and he bardeneth without any iniquitie 〈…〉 that neither he which is deliuered might boast of his owne merits neither he which is condemned might complaine but of his owne deserts for onely grace discerneth those that are saued from those that are damned Nowe M. Doctor plead you merits and deserts I for my part will cleaue onely to grace From workes of preparation we are to descend to good workes and free will but of these I haue spoken before and therefore I will not repeat the matters handled but come to the keeping of Gods commandements which we denie can be done in that perfection as the lawe requireth for there is no man that sinneth not and to say as the Papists say is plaine Pelagianisme facilia dicis saith Hierom thou saiest Gods commandement are easie Ad Câ—â— and yet thou canst alleadge none that hath fulfilled them all Augustines testimonies are pregnant in this point wherefore to leaue it as also humane lawes and to speake of the seauen Sacraments The Papists make not onely 7. Sacraments but many moe For as they make orders one of the seauen so doe they make diuers Sacraments in orders as namely the order of Bishops one sacrament the order of Priesthood another and the order of Deaconship another as Bellarmine sheweth Hence it is plaine that they make about seauen sacraments yea they make inferior orders also a Sacrament and so they haue exceedingly multiplied the number of sacraments but we make but two and this number I prooued before out of Augustine besides the Sacraments did flowe out of Christs side but onely blood and water did issue out of Christs side ergo there are but two Water signifieth Baptisme and blood the Eucharist touching the proofe of this that the sacraments did flowe out of Christs fide read Bellarmine lib. 1. de Sacr. cap. 15. To proceede August in 8. tract in Iob. in a Sacrament there must be a word of institution and an outward element Accedat verbum ad clementum fiat Sacramentum Let the word come to the element and so it shall be a Sacrament But onely Baptisme and the supper of the Lord hath an outward element and the word of institution ergo I will not adioyne the testimonies of Fathers neither shewe that Durand denieth matrimonie to be a Sacrament after the Sacraments The Doctor nameth Priesthood of which I haue spoken as also of the single life of the Cleargie But concerning Priesthood I would know whether his Priests are after Aarons order or after Melchizedechs Aarons order is ceased Melchizedechs order is peculiar to Christ what Priesthood then would you haue M. Doctor And whereas you say that we denie pennance contritioÌ„ and the perpetuall virginitie of the Virgin Marie with trimming vp of Churches ceremonies and singing it is false for we teach godly sorrow to be necessarie vnto saluation and do not denie the perpetual virginitie of the virgin Marie neither do we condemne moderate trimming vp of churches ceremonies as for satisfaction and the reall presence I haue handled them before as also worshipping of Images and the visibilitie of the Church I will speake of praier vnto Saints which as yet I haue not spoken of If we must pray vnto Saints we must beleeue in them for to whomsoeuer we pray we must beleeue in him but we must not beleeue in Saints ergo If you answer that we may beleeue in Saints heare what the Fathers write Vemantius saith Vbi prepostio In ponitur To. 2. ibi diuinitas approbatur Whersoeuer the preposition in is there the Diuinitie is approoued To Vemantius agreeth Paschasius Tâ— 9. Credimus Ecclesiam quasi regenerationis matrem non in Ecclesiam credimus quasi salutis vxorem We beleeue the holy Church as the mother of regeneration but we beleeue not in the Church as the author of saluatioÌ„ Bellarm. prooueth the Deitie of Christ because we must beleeue in him to beleeue then in Saints is to make them Gods Nazianzene also prooueth the Deitie of the holy Ghost because we beleeue in the holy Ghost Furthermore to whomesoeuer we must pray we must call him Father but we must not call any Saint Father ergo The proposition is manifest out of the Lords praier which is a perfect patterne of praier Ep. 121. for as saith Augustine QuaÌ„libet alia verba dicamus nihil aliud dicimus quà m in ista oratione dominica positum est si rectè congruentur oramus Although we vtter other wordes yet we say no other thing then is contained in the Lords praier if we pray conueniently and aright Thirdly to whomsoeuer we must pray he must knowe the heart but onely God knoweth the heart ergo Theophylact vpon the 19. of Math. writeth that ex hoc quòd cogitationes resciuit ostendit se Deum Christus Christ by this thing did shewe himselfe God because he knew their thoughts Now M. Doctor iudge whether you haue not vttered a most wretched speech that a horse if he could speak might be as good a Protestant as the best of them all We come not in with bare negatiues but with sound arguments which if you can answere I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which stand vpon bare negatiues are of a false religion But the Protestants stand vpon bare negatiues ergo The assumption as I haue shewed is vtterly false And M. Doctor I would knowe whether you owne men stand vpon bare negatiues or no. We teach many points as I haue prooued which the Papists hold themselues if we stand vpon hare destructiues then doe they also Charge not vs then M. Doctor with bare negatiues except you will disgrace your own men The 15. reason Diuinitie Salomon giueth counsaile that an other should coÌ„mend vs not we our selues yet this Doctor thirsteth so after praise that he commendeth the papists for learning and condemneth the protestants for Idiotes I doe not willingly diminish the papists learning virtus in hoste laudanda vertue is to be commended in our enemies yet now I am enforced to shew the Papists ignorance and to defend the protestants knowledge many Popes as I haue prooued haue beene so ignorant that they did not know their grammer Pope Benedictus saith Waltheramus
other knaueries Verily M. Doctor I doubt not but that you know many of your men to haue beene hanged for treasons and that your owne conscience can tell you that our godly ministers pray whilst your Cardinalls are in bedde with their harlots If the Vicar of Waram had his trull from coleman hedge let him answer such a filthie fact himselfe charge not our religion with his actions I lament M. Doctor from my heart the vsurie symonie that is practised with many as also the excessiue pride in apparrell the traines verdingalls borders periwingles coronets wyers and ruffes which are spoken against by the syncere preachers of the Gospel and I know none practise these more then Atheists or Papists and it is vtterly false that it came in with our Gospel The holy prophet Esai hath sharply rebuked this intollerable pride as you may see in his 3. chap. will you therefore M. Doctor say that the doctrine of the holy prophet was naught because pride did so abound in his time I hope you will remember your selfe But Erasmus say you Epistles condemneth sinnes in Euangelicall people and so doe we in whome soeuer they are as he condemneth sinnes in the Euangelicall people so doth he commend Luther whome you say to haue ledde a brutish life Hominis vita saith he magno omnium consensu probatur iam id non leve praeiudicium est tantam esse morum integritatem vt nec hosteâ— reperiant quid calumnientur Luthers life is approoued by the consent of all men and that is no small praeiudice that his integritie is soe great that the enemies cannot slaunder it Touching his marriage hee married not to please you but to please God in holy matrimony Augustine writeth of virgins which are sory for their vowe Cap. 39. de sanct virg vt melius nuberent quam vrerentur That they should doe better to marrie then to burne and in his booke de bono vid 8. 9. chap. hee teacheth that they which marrie after a vowe doe contract true matrimony though therefore he maried a Nunne yet was his marriage true whatsoeuer you bring from Iouinian his lawes the Doctor which I had allmost forgotten demandeth what womaÌ„ is married without touch of her honestie yea saith he it is well if she had not a barne before These questions Master Doctour touch your honeste neerely for the world can controwle these vanites as like wise other in the end of your chapter where you say that if a Seminarie Priest turne to vs he drinketh vp sinne as the dogge lappeth vp water but on the other side if any doe leaue the protestants and become a Catholike he doth leaue all his vices These vntruthes deserue not any answer but graunt them to be true yet is religion truth whatsoeuer wickednes the men that professe it are giuen vnto And whereas you haue spoken of pride Laurentius Valla de Constat donat saith thus Existimo c. I thinke the deuils would expresse the pride of the Cleargie if they acted any plaies in the aire The 17. reason Constancie in Doctrine That the doctrine of the Romane Church hath euer remained without change it is as false as it is true that in the Apostles time the Romans faith was reported through the world To shew that the Romish Church hath swarued from that faith which the Apostles spake of the Epistle it selfe is sufficient who listeth to coÌ„pare the doctrine which now the papists hold with the holy doctrine taught in that Epistle shal see differences inough to shew the time of the change and alteration is nedeles for we see it with our eyes but because the Doctor saith that noe man can prooue that euer any pope or byshop in any See did at any time change in any point of religion of his predecessor I will name vnto him one poynte changed Gregory would not be called vniuersall bishop yet his successor Boniface was so called heare you haue a pope which altereth a point in religion August 157. ep Greg. l. 1. epist 4â— to giue you another point pope Zozimus held that Nemo redemptus dici potest nisi qui verè per peccatum fuerit captivus Mo man can be called redeemed except he hath bin in trueth a captiue in sinne yet Pope Sixtus taught the Virgin Marie not to be conceiued in sinne ergo shee cannot be called redeemed To touch some other charges Gregorie saith it was heard that the subdeacons of Sicilie should not be married he gaue them leaue to marrie although his predecessors had forbidden it Yet is this thing againe changed for nowe subdeacons haue no wiues Pope Vrban the 4. instituted the feast of the Lords body and the solemne Precession What should I speake of Images and the peoples consent in election of ministers that the people did giue voices it is plaine by Bellarmines confession lib. de Cleric cap. 17. and that in Gregories time By these fewe examples euery man may see a change I will not produce any moe because the Doctor named but one point And why should we not thinke of a change in points of religion seeing one Pope would change the acts of another Stephanus did most cruelly persecute Formosus and made all his ordinations voide and saith Sigebert Sigebert Alia in euÌ„ horribilia dictu fecit He did other horrible things to be named against him Pope Iohn afterward confirmed Formosus his actes then commeth Sergius and maketh all voide again this saith Sigebert is dictu nefas a most horrible thing to be spoken of Thus M. Doctor you may see alterations in Popes if you wil but read your owne men I could alleadge confessions out of Bellarmine himselfe but I haue handled them in other places and desire breuitie I reduce your reasons into a syllogisme They which alter some opinions are of a false religion But some Protestants haue altered some opinions Ergo I denie the proposition for who can discommend this thing that a man should vpon good grounds change his opinions Nunquam saith the Orator praestantibus viris laudata est in vna sententia perpetua permansio Excellent men neuer commend perpetuitie in one opinion As constancie is good so pertinacie is badde You will giue the Poets leaue malè tornatos incudi reddere versus to renue bad verses and will you not giue diuines leaue to change their opinions praestat recurrere quà m male currere it is better to runne backe then to runne a wrong way Augustine an excellent Father hath written bookes of Retractions yet Protestants may not alter any opinions but they are by and by heretickes Whitak coâ—â— Du. Luther desireth that his bookes may be reade cum multa miseratione with much compassion because he was once a Monke no maruaile though he changed his opinions seeing he was traind vp in blindnesse And yet as the Doctor here himselfe sheweth he came from condemning one errour in Poperie vntill he condemned many If Luther had chaÌ„ged
A QVARTRON OF REAsons composed by Doctor HILL vnquartered and prooued a quartron of follies by Francis Dillingham Bachelour of Diuinitie August in Senten Inimici Ecclesiae si tantummodo adversantur male sentienda exercent eius sapientiam The Churches enemies if they be onely her aduersaries by false opinions doe exercise her wisdome HINC · LVCEM · ET · POCVLA · SACRA Printed by IOHN LEGAT Printer to the Vniuersitie of Cambridge 1603. And are to be sold at the signe of the Crowne in Pauls Church-yard by Simon Waterson TO THE RIGHT HOnourable and my very good Lord OLIVER Lord S. Iohn Baron of Blettenshoe Grace and peace THe paines of Papists Right Honourable in propagating the Romish religion should mooue sincere Protestants to be painefull in defending the truth of the eternall God who in hiâ— rich mercie amongst other innumerable benefits bestowed vpon this land hath giuen vs the benefit of his holy word not in a strange tongue as it was in the daies of Poperie but in our mother tongue that it may be a lanterne to our feete and a light vnto our paths This light the Papists haue laboured to extinguish by treasons by writings and all meanes that they could vse but blessed be God frustra illis est they are deceiued Now least it should seeme strange to any that heretikes should be so laborious in auouching heresie may it please him to consider that Idolaters haue bin studious in maintaining their idolatrie Ieroboam made two calues 1 King 12. the one of them he placed at Bethel and so made it Bethauen the other at Dan and so made it a denne of Idolaters The Israelites offered their children to Moloc behold the rage of idolatrie If men could be content that their children should be sacrificed vnto idols shall we thinke it strange that some should write bookes to subuert the truth of religion Wherefore to leaue this point and to returne to that which I said in the beginning that the labours of Papiâ—ts should be a spurre to Protestants to defend the Gospel now publikely authorized in England Why should not we be as carefull for Gods glorie as they are for the glorie of their purple whore But I feare some are like the beete which is good both in winter and sommer others haue bought farmes or it may be haue married wiues that is they are so addicted to the world and to their pleasures that they haue no leisure to write I would these men would consider of Christ his commandement Negotiamini donec venero vse trafficke vntill I come But to leaue these loyterers in the Lords vineyard vpon the forenamed consideration I haue endeauoured my selfe to answer a booke called a Quartron of Reasons for the Catholike religion which booke as I dedicate to your Honour so I humbly desire you to accept the same as a token of my dutifull minde towardes you The author of this pestilent pamphlet commendeth the Romish religion for peace dâ— privil 〈◊〉 yet Theodoricus de Niem saith that vnum patet one thing is manifest after the suppression of the Imperiall power nothing but factions did spring vp in the Catholike Church especially in Italie And as he is not ashamed to lie in this point so doth he also in saying that in England all were Papists without exception from the first christening thereof vntill this age of king Henrie the eight yet Ministers were married many hundred yeares in England as M. Camden sheweth in his Britannia in many places In the 129. page of the third edition he prooueth that ante annum 1102. sacerdotibus vxores in Anglia non fuerunt interdictae Ministers were not restrained from marriage before the yeare of our Lord a 1102. And as Ministers were married so Transubstantiation was not acknowledged likewise a long time as may be seene by Aelfricus his epistle against the bodily presence Moreouer the author as he laboureth to disgrace all Protestants in generall so especially he inueyeth against Luther wherefore to stoppe the mouthes of Papists I will set downe the testimonie of Langius a Papist concerning Luther First he saith that he was vir venerandus profundissimus Theologus a reuerend man and most profound Diuine Afterward he writeth thus Martinus ille theologorum nostrae tempestatis omnium facile princeps doctrinam suam Evangelicis testimoniis divi Apostoli Pauli necnon priscorum orthodoxorum patrum originalibus dictis roborans comprobans perstitit invictus The same Martin the most wise ringleader of the diuines of our age confirming and strengthening his doctrine with testimonies out of the Gospel and out of S. Paul the Apostle and also with the originall sayings of the ancient orthodoxall fathers perfisted invincible This testimonie may suffice to cleare Luther from the friuolous quarrels that this slanderer hath written against him Bellarmine maketh the confession of the aduerse part to be a note of the Church Hence then are we prooued the Church by this confession of Langius The same author exceedingly commendeth Hierome of Prage saying that he was orator eloquentissimus atque acerrimus dialecticus adeo quod nullus doctissimorum virorum in Concilio disputando eum superare poterat He was the most eloquent Orator and fine Logician that the learnedest man in the Councell could not ouercome him in disputation Mutius his testimonie of the same man is worthie to be heard Erat saith he Hieronymus vir eloquentissimus insignis cum in omni philosophiae genere tum praecipue in sacris literis Hierome was a most eloquent and famous man in all philosophie but especially in the holy Scriptures Now what cause this proud Papist hath to vaunt of their owne learning and to disgrace the Protestants let euery man iudge seeing Protestants by the Papists owne confession haue beene such famous men Lastly not to be long the author of this booke extolleth the holinesse of their religion touching which point let that ancieÌ„t writer Aronobius speak who in his seuenth booke hath this sentence Crescit multitudo peccantium cum redimendi peccati spes datur facile itur ad culpas vbi est vaenalis ignoscentium gratia Sinners doe much encrease when there is hope giuen to redeeme their sinnes and men easily commit faults where pardons are sold Then is the Romish religion dissolute which selleth pardons Not to proceede any further the Lord multiplie his graces vpon you and your vertuous Ladie to your soules good and the benefit of his Church Your Honours euer to command Francis Dillingham THE FIRST REASON Of Prophesies IF M. Doctor had contended pondere argumentorum and not multitudine with sound arguments and not with a multitude he might happily haue perswaded some to his religion whereas now by reason of the weaknes of his reasons he hath rather hindred many from the same then moooued any vnto it That which is commonly said of pictures hath a fit place in this worke of doctor Hill Picturae eminus
vnderstood comparatiuely the Gospel was before his time but it was not in tanta luce in such brightnes as it hath beene since and I trust it shall more and more increase ingratijs Papistarum whether the Papists will or no. They may presse the truth but they shall neuer oppresse it they may vaunt of veritie but they must winne the cause by force of arguments The second reason the name of Catholikes A man may maruell that any who would perswade to religion should make so simple an argument as this They which are called Catholikes are the true Church But the Papists are called Catholikes Ergo they are the true Church The proposition is false Salvianus in the beginning of his 4. booke of prouidence speaketh excellently of this point Nomen sine officio nihil est nam sicut ait quidam in scriptis suis quid est principatus sine meritorum sublimitate nisi honoris titulus sine nomine A name without the dutie is nothing for as one faith in his writings what is principalitie without sublimitie of good works but a bare title of honour For the further handling of this matter we will consider what Catholike is Vincentius Lyrinensis thus describeth this word Catholike Quod ab omnibus creditum est Catholicum est that which is beleeued of all men is Catholike Is Poperie then Catholike which is not beleeued of all men I will name some opinions and prooue them not to be credited of all and I will beginne with the worshipping of Images which I will prooue not to be Catholike Minutius Foelix in his Octauius speaketh thus Cruces nec colimus nec optamus we neither worship nor wish for Crosses Againe in the same treatise it is demanded of Christians Cur nullas aras habent templa nulla nulla nota simulachra why they haue no altars no temples no images The Councell of Eliberis in Spaine haue in plaine words banished them out of Churches Placuit picturas in Ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus depingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the Churches least that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walls Sigebert in the yeare of our Lord 755. writeth that Constantinus Jmperator Constantinopoli synodum trecentorum triginta Episcoporum congregat in qua edicto promulgato de Imaginibus Dei sanctorum eius deponendis Ecclesiam Dei nimis scandalizat Constantine the Emperour gathered a Councell at Constantinople of 330. Bishops in which publishing an edict against the Images of God and the Saints he doth too much scandalize the Church Thus it appeareth that worshipping of Images is not Catholike Secondly the Papists teach that the Church is built vpon vpon Peters person Is this Catholike doctrine Ionas in his second booke of Images speaketh thus of this point Multi penè omnes Petram super quam aedificatur Ecclesia fidem intelligunt beati Petri quae communis est totius sanctae Ecclesiae videlicet eam quae paulò ante promissionem hanc praecesserat id est tu es Christus filius Dei vivi Many and almost all vnderstand by the Rocke on which the Church is built the faith of blessed Peter which is common to all the holy Church namely that which a little before was precedent to this promise that is to say Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God Thirdly the Papists teach that the virgin Marie was no sinner is this catholike doctrine Read Aquinas in his third part the 27. quaest the 4. art and his answer to the third argument where reiecting Chrysostomes authoritie he saith that excessit in illis verbis his words are too broad yet many yeares after Chrysostome was this doctrine held in 22. Math. Theophilact writeth that Marie was ambitiosula tanto sibi filio subdito somewhat ambitious hauing such a sonne vnder her Fourthly the Papists teach that Ministers may not haue wiues is this catholike many hundred yeares after Christ Priests were married In the yeare of our Lord 1074. Hildebrand as Lambertus Schafuaburgensis reporteth decreed that Habentes aut dimittant aut deponantur they which had wiues must either dismisse them or be deposed therefore saith the forenamed writer Aduersus hoc decretum infremunt tota factio Clericorum the whole companie of the Cleargie stormed against this decree The same is also reported by Sigebert saying that Gregorie vxorates Sacerdotes à divino officio removit novo exemplo remooued from diuine seruice the married Priests by a new example What should I speake of prayer in a strange tongue of concealing the Scriptures from the people of summoning of Councells by the Pope These with many other opinions might I shew to be against diuinitie taught in the ancient Church Pacianus thus describeth Catholike that it is Obedientia omnium mandatorum scilicet Dei an obedience vnto all Gods commandements Now let vs see whether you teach obedience vnto Gods commandements or no to let passe Idolatrie and other sinnes M. Perk. ex Molano See more of this point in the Reason of doctrine I come to swearing The Papists teach that they may sweare that they haue not beene at Masse when they haue beene there This is nothing but to prophane an oath as Aquinas testifieth in his 2. 2. 89. quaest art 7. and answer to the 4. argument saying Quacunque arte verborum quis iuret Deus tamen qui conscientiae testis est ita hoc accipit sicut ille cui iuratur intelligit with what cunning soeuer a man doth sweare God who is the witnesse of conscience doth take it as he meaneth to whō a man sweareth Let vs now heare the reason why the name Catholike prooueth a Church because they that are so named haue on their side Scriptures Fathers Councells and Martyrs for of miracles we shall speake hereafter This proud bragge I vtterly denie concerning Scriptures I say with Salvianus in his 5. booke of prouidence that Nos tantùm Scripturas plenas habemus qui eas vel in fonte suo bibimus vel certè de purissimo fonte haustas we onely haue the Scriptures fully perfect which either drinke them in their fountaine or translated out of a most pure fountaine Touching Fathers by that which hath bin said afore it appeareth that they are not all on their side What should I speake of the famous Martyrs in Queene Maries daies which died in the religion now taught in England Thus therefore I returne the argument They which are falsly called Catholikes are not the true church But the Papists are falsly called Catholikes Ergo they are not the true church Concerning the name of Protestants we doe not hold our selues content with it although it be not so bad as the name of Papists and touching the names of Calvinists and Zwinglians they are names invented as Athanasians and Omousians were by the old heretikes But whereas he giueth some allowance to the name
epist 1. ad Cor. cap. 7. But let Erasmus speake concerning this matter Qui sit how commeth it to passe saith he that the decrees of this Pope fight with the decrees of that Pope That I say nothing of Formosus doe not the decrees of Iohn the 22. and Nicholas fight one against another what should I speake of Innocentius and Coelestinus Pelagius and Gregories decrees one contrarie to another By these examples appeareth the Doctors vanitie The fourth reason conuersion of countries In this fourth reason the framer of it according to his custome beginneth with an vntruth saying that all countries which euer beleeued in Christ were first conuerted to his faith by such as either were precisely sent or at least wise had their authoritie from the Pope The Apostles which receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe not from Peter conuerted many countries That the Apostles receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe the scriptures are plaine in the 20. of Iohn our Sauiour saith As the father hath sent me so send I you what can be more plaine Paul saith of himselfe that he was an Apostle neither of men nor by men but by Iesus Christ How many countries did Paul conuert Concerning this land I spake something before Read Theodoret his 4. booke and 3. chap. where he reckneth England amongst the Christian lands Chrysostome as the same writer testifieth comparavit viros aemulatores Apostolicorum laborum eosque ad Scythias misit prouided men followers of the Apostles labours and sent them to the Scythians The Indians were conuerted by Frumentinus whome Athanasius ordained Bishop as the same author testifieth in his 1. booke and 12. chap. The people of Iberia were conuerted per captivam mulierem by a woman that was a captiue Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 10. by all which cleare and pregnant proofes euery man may see the boldnes of the authors assertion But now I come to reduce his reason into a syllogisme They which take paines in conuersion of countries hold the true religion But the Papists take paines in conuersion of countries ergo I denie the proposition and say to the Papists as our blessed Sauiour spake to the Pharisies Math. 23. woe be to you Papists for ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made ye make him twofold more the child of hell Heretikes haue laboured to conuert or rather to peruert men Paul in the 2. Tim. 3.13 affirmeth that euill men shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and beeing deceiued The Arrians peruerted many kingdomes Read Sigebert in his chap. de regno Gothorum as witnes Theodoret and others writers As touching the conuersion of the west Indians if things be true that are reported Sadeel con are pos in novo illo orbe amplius decies centena millia barbarorum aut fame aut gladio perierunt in the new found world aboue tenne hundred thousand haue perished either by famine or by sword If our Sauiour Christ had saide Goe kill all nations when he saide Goe teach all nations he had fitted the Papists humour What Gregorie spent in founding Seminaries to restore Catholike religion I know not but this I am sure of that Papists haue taken paines in contriuing of treasons here in England But to returne to the Indies The people there liued not onely without all manner of knowledge of God but also wilde and naked without any ciuill gouernement Iuel 42. pag. beeing in this miserable estate some worshipped the sunne some familiar deuills what maruell then if they were easily ledde into any religion especially carrying such a shew of apparrell and other ceremonies But doe not the Protestants take paines in winning of soules vnto God Calvine not to speake of others read almost two hundred lectures euery yeare and preached aboue two hundred sermons Who conuerted England Scotland Ireland and other countries from Antichrist to Christ from the Masse to the Messias from Images to the seruice of the liuing God did not poore Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius and other Protestants the ministers of England labour in their owne charges preaching in season and out of season God is as well glorified in the conuersion of a soule here as in other countries But doe the Papists now labour in conuerting of soules in times past it was not so hodie proh dolor saith Aeneas Sylvius Lib. 1. de geâ—â— con Basil now alas he is a rare Prelate which doth not preferre temporall things before spirituall things Againe Nos ignavia nostra nimia vitae cupiditate Christianam religionem ex toto orbe in angulum redegimus we by our lasinesse and great desire of life haue drawne religion out of the world into a corner of the same Clemangis in his booke which he wrote of the corrupt state of the Church speaketh thus Multò aequanimiùs ferunt decem millium animarum iacturam quà m decem solidorum Pontifices suas traditiones divinis longè mandatis anteponunt they had rather loose ten thousand soules then tenne shillings the Popes preferre their traditions farre before Gods commandements Thus then I returne the argument They which esteeme money more then the soules of men are not the true Church But the Papists esteeme money more then the soules of men Ergo. Whether M. Calvin sent ministers or no into new found lands I know not neither am I priuie to the successe they had Ezekiel was sent to the Iewes that they might know that there had beene a Prophet amongst them the fault is not in the doctrine but in the men who resist the same I will not dispute whether a wicked man may be a meanes to winne soules as a good master bestoweth a good almes by the ministerie of an euill seruant so also the mercifull Lord may call one to repentance by the meanes of another though he be an vnpenitent person The Doctors rayling vpon Luther Calvin and Peter Martyr calling his wife fustilugges fitteth the spirit of a Papist If Peter Martyrs lawfull wife deserueth the name of fustilugges what name doe the popish priests concubines deserue In that our Ministers trauell not without their wiues 1. Cor. â— I answer with Paul Haue we not power to lead about a sister a wife Beza his epistles and pistols are but words to fill vp pages and to wast paper But haue not the Protestants for-gone any worldly wealth to spread abroad religion why are they then exiles and haue witnessed their religion with their blood In a word Poperie gaineth more by wealth and armes then by conscience and if it gaineth any soundly it is by some reliques of truth which remaineth with them The fifth reason largenes of dominion through multitude of beleeuers That the Church which the Messias was to plant must be dispersed throughout all nations and kingdomes as the holy Prophets most plainly foreshewed we acknowledge neither needed the Doctor to haue produced so many testimonies I may well say of the Doctor as did
Aristippus of Dyonisius his liberalitie Tutò Dyonisius inquit liberalis est his enim qui multis indigent pauca mittit Platoni verò qui nihil accipit plurima Dyonisius saith Aristippus maintaineth all his liberalitie well enough for to the needie he sendeth fewe things but to Plato which lacketh nothing many gifts Euen so the Doctor in needelesse matters heapeth vp many testimonies but in matters of question he hath no proofe but bold assertions If he had prooued that these prophesies are verified in no religion but onely in the religion which now the Papists hold he had done well but hic labor hoc opus this is such paines as would make the Doctor sweat As the Prophets foretold the largenes of Christs religion 2. Thesâ— â— so Paul prophesied of an Apostasie from the same as the Rhemists confesse and as the same men write vpon the 12. of the Rev. where S. Iohn foresheweth that the Church shall flie into the wildernes that now in England The Church Catholike because it hath no publicke state or regiment nor open free exercise of functions may be said to be fled into the desart so say I of our Church in the raigne of Antichrist And thus I conclude As the Papists Church is now in England though not visible so was the Protestants in Antichrists raigne But the Papists Church is now in England Ergo. The proposition is manifest by S. Iohn who foretelleth the flight of the Church into the wildernes Let Reinerus speake Catal. test â—ec who was a popish inquisitour he saith that the poore men of Lyons were more pernitious to the Romish Church then all other sects for three causes first because it hath beene of longer continuance for some say that it hath endured since the time of Sylvester others say it hath endured since the Apostles time The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no land in which this sect doth not creepe The third cause is for that all other sects doe bring in an horrour with their heinousnes of their blasphemies against God This sect of the Leonists hath a great shewe of godlines because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all things well concerning God and all the articles which are contained in the Creede they blaspheme and hate onely the Church of Rome This is the testimonie of a cruell enemie and persecutor of them whereby euery man may see the Church to haue continued maugre Antichrist These men are knowne to haue continued in Bohemia Calabria Piemont and other places Their faith is printed in the booke called Fasciculus rerum expetendarum where who listeth may read the same But now I reduce his argument into a syllogisme They which haue the largest scope are the true Church But the Papists haue the largest scope Ergo. The proposition beseemeth an Ethnicke better then a Christian might not the heathen haue made the same against Christ The Pharisies argue indeede after the same manner Ioh. 7. Doth any of the Rulers beleeue in Christ so the Papists say Doe any Popes Cardinalls embrace Luthers doctrine In the 1. King 22. there are foure hundred Prophets against Michaiah yet Michaiah had the truth In the third of Daniel three onely resisted the Kings edict Esa 1.9 The Prophet Esai affirmeth that except the Lord had reserued a remnant they had bin as Sodom and Gomorrah Elias complaineth that he was left alone In the daies of Achab the altar of God was remooued and an idolatrous altar by the high Priests consent was set vp 1. king 16. and chap. 17.19 it is said that Iudah did not keepe the Lords commandements but walked in the errours of Israel Likewise Manasses and Amon built an idolatrous altar 2. king 21.4 5. and 22. v. might not they haue made the same argument Lib. de bre vitae Well saith Seneca Non tam benè cum rebus humanis agitur vt meliora pluribus placeant argumentum pessimi turba est It is not so well with humane affaires that most men like the best things the multitude is an argument of the worst Bellarmine hath this ingenious confession Si sola vna provincia retineret veram fidem adhuc verè propriè diceretur Ecclesia Catholica If onely one Prouince should retaine the faith yet that Prouince should be the true Church Therefore largenesse of dominion is not a note of the true Church But it is worthie to be noted first that this Doctour reckneth the largenesse of the Romane religion but for a thousand yeares for space then of sixe hundred yeares our Church had large dominion antiquitie then is with vs. Verily if our Church was ample for sixe hundred yeares I make no doubt of our religion and indeede the largenesse which the Prophets foretold was verified of the Apostolicall Church and by consequent of ours Let the Scriptures iudge whether we teach the same doctrnie that the Apostles did or no. I would not haue the Doctour to thinke that for a thousand yeares we had no church for that we alwaies had a Church I prooued before out of their owne writers Images were reiected by many Bishops seauen hundred yeares after Christ Ministers were likewise married as I shewed before for a thousand yeares And not to name many other points of doctrine Bellarmine prooueth the seauen Sacraments out of Peter Lombard is not this goodly doctrine which can bring no better authors for it then the master of sentences Barnard denieth merits Bellarmine answereth that he did it of humilitie at sancti humiles esse debent non mendaces Saints must be humble not liars In the yeare of our Lord one thousand one hundred and seauen the poore men of Leodium prooued Pope Paschal to be Antichrist In epist ad Pas Hactenus interpretabar say they ideo veluisse Petrum per Babilonem significare Romam quia tunc temporis Roma confusa erat Idololatria omni spurcitie at nunc dolor meus interpretatur quod Petrus prophetico spiritu dicens ecclesiam in Babilone collectam praedicit confusionem dissentionis qua hodie scinditur ecclesia I was wont to interpret that Peter by Babylon would signifie Rome because Rome at that time was confused with idolatrie and filthinesse but now my sorrow doth interpret vnto me that Peter calling the Church gathered togither in Babylon foresaw by the spirit of prophesie the confusion of dissention wherewith the Church at this day is rent in pieces And in the yeare of our Lord 1240. Cranâ— lib. â— Met. 18. many preachers in high Germanie did freely preach against the Pope Crantzius a man who greatly fauoured the Pope saith thus of them Quidam pulsatis campanis conuocatis baronibus terrarum certaine ringing the bells and calling the Barons of the countries are affirmed to preach publikely that the Pope was an heretike his Bishops and Prelates Symonists and heretikes Bertrame eight hundred yeares after Christ was an enemie vnto
first that Augustine speaketh of ancient miracles for he saith tenet me authoritas miraculis inchoata authoritie begunne by miracles doth hold me in Secondly I answer that Augustine doth preferre truth before miracles in the same place he confesseth that veritas est illis omnibus praeponenda truth is to be preferred before all those things Now I returne the argument They which haue true miracles are the true Church But the Protestants haue true miracles Ergo. For the proofe of the assumption we produce the Apostles miracles by which that doctrine which we maintaine was confirmed many hundred yeares agoe If our doctrine be not conteined in the scriptures let it be disprooued by the same But because the Doctour saith out of Augustine that he is bound in the Church by the bond of miracles I would it might please him a little to listen vnto S. Augustine writing thus de Vni eccle cap. 16. Non dicat ideò verum esse quia illa illa mirabilia fecit Donatus vel Pontius c. Let no man say it is true because Donatus or Pontius hath done these or these miracles or because men at the memorie of the dead doe pray and are heard or because these or these things doe happen there or because this our brother or that our sister saw such a vision waking or dreamed such or such a vision sleeping In in the same cap. Augustine speaketh thus quaecunque talia such things whatsoeuer are to be approoued because they are done in the Catholike Church yet it is not made knowne by them Belsee his reports of Luther and Calvin we reiect and touching our Gospel it is not altogether without miracles in these daies your Idols are fallen quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit The world beleeuing whosoeuer seeketh for wonders that he might beleeue is himselfe a wonder Take heede therefore M. Doctour least you make your selfe a miracle that will not beleeue without miracles The 7. reason visions and the gift of prophesie Cytharaedus ridiculus chorda qui semper oberrat eadem This Doctour harpeth alwaies vpon one string he is not contented with Miracles but now he commeth to Visions and confidently affirmeth that visions and the gift of prophesie were neuer found to be but in the true Church yet Aquinas in his 2. 2. 172. quest art 6. teacheth that prophetae daemonum aliquando verum praedicant the deuills prophets sometimes foretell the truth yea he auoucheth that propheta daemonum non semper loquuntur ex revelatione daemonum sed interdum ex inspiratione divina that the deuills prophets did not alwaies speake by reuelation from the deuill but sometime by inspiration from God and this he prooueth by Balaam his example vnto whome the Lord spake as it is in the 22. of Numb The Sybilles as the Doctour himselfe confesseth prophesied for the confirmation of right religion yet were they Ethnicks and liued amongst them Who dare say that the Church were with the heathen because of the Sybilles But I draw this argument into a syllogisme They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the Church But the Papists haue visions and the gift of prophesie Ergo. Aquinas as you haue heard M. Doctour denieth your proposition and whereas you would prooue the same because S. Paul S. Peter and S. Iohn stand vpon Reuelations behold now your double follie First you thus conclude the Church had visions therefore it onely hath visions which is as good as if a man should conclude the Church teacheth the Trinitie ergo no heretikes teach the same Secondly the Church had visions therefore it shall alwaies haue visions who will graunt you this consequence S. Augustine saith 3. booke de bap cap. 10. that miracles were ad ecclesiae primordia dilatanda to enlarge the beginnings of the Church so were visions to last for a time I returne the argument They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the true Church But the Protestants haue visions Ergo they are the true Church The Assumption is prooued by S. Pauls Saint Peters and Saint Iohns visions our doctrine is the same with theirs Saint Iohn heard a voice from heauen saying Blessed are the dead for they rest from their labours so say we therfore there is no purgatorie paines for them after this life The Scriptures teach that the sufferings of Christ are a perfect and full satisfaction for our sinnes so say we and therefore there remaineth not any part of Gods iustice to be satisfied by vs. But let vs see what visions the Papists haue and what a dangerous thing it is to stand vpon visions Bellarmine in his 2. booke of purgatorie and 7. chap. alleadgeth a vision out of Beda to prooue besides hell purgatorie and heauen a fourth place namely pratum florentissimum dilucidissimum as it were a most goodly meadow And in the same booke and 4. chap. he sheweth that Dyonisius the Carthusian and Michael Baius by visions would prooue that the soules in purgatorie were not certen of their saluation which opinion he confuteth Thus you see out of your owne writers what credit is to be giuen to visions by such counterfaiting meanes we may prooue any thing I say therefore with Augustine Removeantur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum vel portenta fallacium spirituum Away with these fained things of lying men or monsters of lying spirits And now M. Doctour to argue vpon your owne graunts both of miracles and visions You say that the heathen had prophesies to confirme right religion graunt you then that you haue some few which works both true miracles and see true visions it is not to confirme your erroneous doctrine but to confirme that truth of doctrine which is held in your Church for all them you are a corrupt Church yet there are some reliques of true doctrine remaining and so by sequele of your owne speech these things may come to passe to confirme that true doctrine which is amōgst you Heretikes haue held some true opinions that there heresies might be the better bolstered out You hold the Trinitie and some other points of religion it may be then that if there be any miracles or visions amongst you it is to confirme the reliques of that truth which remaineth with you Thus I haue argued vpon your owne wordes and graunt But for my part I hold with Chrysostome 49. hom in op◠imper that nunc nulla probatio esse potest vorae ecclesiae there can be now no proofe of the true Church but onely by the Scriptures He giueth a reason of his speach quia saith he qua propria sunt in veritate ca hareses habent in schismate habent ecclesias habent scripturas diuinas habent Episcopos caeterosque ordines clericorum habent baptismum habent Eucharistiam caeteraque omnia because those things which are peculiar to truth heresies haue in their schisme they haue Churches they haue Scriptures they haue Bishoppes
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
then vpon that Popes authoritie Pope Sixtus saith â—ead M. Iames. before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio the occasion of heresie Now Pope Clements edition is approoued farre differing from Sixtus edition What certaintie then haue Papists who will take the scriptures now vpon this now vpon that Popes warrant But I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which haue no certaine triall of truth are not the Church But the Protestants haue no certaine triall Ergo. I denie the assumption for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures Lib. 2. denupt cap. â—â— and may not we so doe S. Augustine writeth thus Ista controuersia iudicem riquirit this controuersie requireth a iudge who shall be iudge he answereth Christ Iudicet Christus let Christ be iudge He doth name neither Pope nor Romish church For as he saith in another place Scriptura est eminentissima authoritatis 〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3. the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse authoritie Lib. 5. Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebaptized is worthie to be heard Quarendi sunt saith he aliqui huius controuersiae indices si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt quia stuaijs veritas impeditur de foris quarendus est index si l'agaâ—â—â— non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudans inimiens est Christiani baptismatis ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium de coelo quaerendus sed vt quid puâ—samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in Euangelio testamentum inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for if Christians they cannot be had on both sides because by part-taking the truth is hindred we must seek abroad for a iudge if he be a Pagan he knoweth not Christian secrets if a Iewe he is an enemie to Christian baptisme in earth there can be found no iudgement a iudge from heauen must be required But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospel a testament because in this place earthly things may be fitly coÌ„pared to heauenly things I maruell M. Doctor that your vanting vpon all the Fathers light not vpon this Father who is as you call them a plaine Calvinist But I returne your argument They which haue no certaine triall of the truth are not the Church But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth Ergo. The assumption is manifest because they relie vpon Popes that may erre Marellinus sacrificed to idols Liberius was an Arrian And more then this some Iudas might creepe into the office as your Rhemists confesse Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil And M. Doctor in a word what certaintie haue you or can you haue if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes The 22. schisme continued 40. yeares as it is recorded in Fascic Temp. and vntill Martin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope You blaspheme the Scriptures Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want The Censure of Colen saith that it is veluti nasus caereus a nose of waxe O Antichristian Prelates the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible What triall of truth you haue I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience M. Doctor In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes admitting no iudge and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head Out vpon you Antichristian heretikes that euer you should thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme wheÌ„ce did Machiauell spring Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very fouÌ„taine of Atheists I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat Apostolicae resonant voces prodigia probant ratio confirmat mundus testatur elemeÌ„ta loquuÌ„tur Daemones confitentur sed longe maior insania si de Euangelij veritate non dubitas viuere tamen quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie the Apostolicall words doe sound miracles do prooue reason doth confirme the world doeth witnesse the elements doe vtter the deuils confesse but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false The twelfth reason the vse and custome of the Church De faece hauris you drawe of your dregges M. Doctor when you will beate vs downe with the bare club of custome Custome in ciuill affaires may preuaile much but in diuinity it is not worth a rush except it be ioyned with trueth Prudentius answereth Symmachus making this defence Suus cuique mos suus cuique ritus est Euery one hath his manner and rite Quid mihi tu ritus solitos Romane senator obiectas cum scita patrum populique frequenter in tabulis placiti sententia flexa nouarit Nunc etiam quoties solitis decedere prodest praeteritosque habitus cultu damnare recenti Why doest thou obiect vnto me Custome when a diuers opinion hath changed the decrees of Father and people now also how often doeth it auaile to depart from custome and by a newe manner to condemne the olde habits Morosa moris retentio res est aequè turbulenta ac nouitas A wayward retaining of a Custome is as turbulent a thing as noueltie Balsamon vpon Photius saith that aequitate exigente mutamus consuctudinem Tom. 6. when equitie requireth it we change custome And againe Vidi non scriptam consuetudinem fuisse infirmatam I haue seene an vnwritten custome to haue beene infringed But saith the Doctor the vse and custome of the church hath beene alwaies an infallible rule to direct and order things by First the Doctor beggeth that which is a question taking the Romish Church to be the true Church We denie it prooue it before you plead custome Secondly the Church in times past did giue the Eucharist vnto Infants was this an infallible rule M. Doctor to giue the Sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ vnto children if you denie that the Church did so you may be confounded with infinite testimonies of authors Augustine in his first booke de peccato mort cap. 20. is plaine vpon which place Erasmus hath made this marginall note Lib. 1. cap. 2. cont Iulian. Nunc
parvulis non datur Eucharistia now the Eucharist is not giuen to little ones Innocentius Pope of Rome as the same father testifieth Definiuit parvulos nisi manducaverint carnem filij hominis vitam prorsus habere non posse that Infants cannot haue eternall life except they eate the flesh of the sonne of man I could produce your owne men who acknowledge that the Church did vse to giue the Sacrament to Infants By which I conclude that the Church is not an infallible rule to direct vnto truth The Apostle Paul doth not onely fight with custome but vseth many other arguments and that in indifferent matters as your Rhemists write therefore you abuse the place to establish a custome to confirme matters of moment when the Apostle entreateth of indifferencie Secondly I would you could truly say that you are the Church as Paul did you are departed from the Apostolicall Church But heare what Theophylact writeth vpon tnat place Ad verecundiam Auditores haec dicta compellunt ne quid praeter Apostolorum consuetudinem factitent these sayings driue the auditors to shame that they should not doe any thing besides the Apostles custome Bring vs therefore the Apostles practise and you shall cause vs to yeild to it But that which he cannot obtaine by Paul he would prooue by Augustine who auoucheth that it is strange madnesse to dispute of that which the vniuersall Church practiseth Secondly he prooueth that Infants are borne in sinne because the Church doth baptize them To the first testimony I answer that Aug. speaketh of ceremonies as whether a man must fast before the cōmunion or no such like Secondly I answer that Papists must prooue their ceremonies to be vsed of the whole Church as also that they be the Church The originall of their ceremonie is set down in their writers as in Bucch others To the second argumēt I answer that we haue infallible testimonies out of scripture to proue that infant are borne in sin besides the custom of the church which baptizeth them And now because you haue obiected a place out of the 5. part of the 18. Epistle heare what he the same S. Augustine writeth in the first part I would haue you saith he to know that the Lord hath made vs subiect to a light yoke and that he hath ioyned together the societie of the new people with Sacraments in number the fewest in obseruation the easiest in signification most excellent such as is Baptisme consecrated in the name of the trinitie and the Communication of his bodie and blood and if any other be contained in the Canonicall Scriptures If S. Augustine had knowne your seauen Sacraments he would neuer haue come in with Si quid aliud if any other Immediately after he will haue such ceremonies in the Vniuersall Church as are instituted by the Apostles or by generall Councels are all yours such The ceremonies of particular Churches are variable as Augustine himselfe confesseth In his hundreth and nineteenth epistle and 19. part he would haue these particular burthens cut off complaining that the estate of the Iews is more tollerable beeing subiect to ceremonies of God then of Christians subiect to humane praesumptions If it was thus in Augustines time what is it now To reduce your argument into a syllogisme thus you dispute They which may plead Custome haue the trueth But the Papists may plead custome Ergo They haue the trueth I denie the proposition and saie with Hildebarte that it is Pertinacia ◠Epist consuetudinem praeferre veritati Obstinacie it is to preferre custome before the trueth This he prooueth by many testimonies out of Augustine and Cyprian which for breuitie I wil omit That we haue taken away the sacrifice of the Church it is senslesse vntruth for that sacrifice which Gods word approoueth we imbrace from our hearts But we are charged with great malepertnes for altering the masse placing in stead thereof chapters psalmes ill translated and ballads called Geneua psalmes with railing sermōs If we had placed their golden legende of lies it may be we should haue heard nothing the Psalmes are Dauids psalmes and if there be any imperfections in our translations there are moe in theirs our sermons are not railing except that be railing which disgraceth errour Erasmus complaineth of Papists that Quorumlibet somnia imo mulier cularum deliramenta leguntur inter diuinas Scripturas Euery fooles dreames yea very mad womens doting fancies are read with holy Scriptures Yet we are malepert because we read and sing Dauids Psalmes Their Popes may adde to the masse what they will and we may not alter any thing without sausines Your masse hath beene by little and little increased as Walfridus Strabo euidently sheweth and yet you boldly say it hath continued through all generations The Apostles did consecrate onely adioyning praier to the same Bellar. lib. 4. cap. 13. de Eucharist which he prooueth out of Gregorie But in his second booke de Missa and 19. Read Fulbertus of varietie of orders in his epist to 3. lib. chap. it is wonderfull to see howe he would elude this testimonie and saith plainely that some denie it yet afterwards he recalleth himselfe It sufficeth to haue shewed that their seruice hath not as this Doctour dreameth continued through all generations Can. 12. In the Miletan Councel there is a decree that no praiers be made in the Church but such as are approoued in a Synode Ne fortè aliquid sid compositum contra fidem least there be any thing composed against the faith Ergo there was not one vniforme order in praier the diuersitie of Liturgies as Basil Chrysostome and others doe shewe likewise what varietie hath beene in the Church concerning the seruice thereof Nay the very Church of Rome at this day doeth not compell all to obserue the Canon of the Romane masse as necessarie as I can prooue by their owne writers Micrologus saith cap. 12. that one Scholasticus did compose the Canon of the masse in his 13. chapter he reciteth superfluities in the Canon thereof and findeth faulte with the mention of the birth of Christ in it seeeing we should Anunciare illius mortem shewe his death Now M. Doctor goe and accuse Micrologus of malepertnes To conclude this point of custome what say you M. Doctor to the feast of the conception of the virgin Marie which is celebrated in you◠Church as though shee was not concerned in sin is this infallibly to direct vnto trueth your owne conscience telleth you the contrarie how many testimonies might I produce to prooue her conception in sinne and yet a feast is kept to the contrarie The 13. reason Doctrine The Doctor in this chapter giueth the Papist no small blowe who teach that the sincere preaching of the word of God is no note of the Church Here he will needes haue that Church whose doctrine tendeth to mortification and holinesse of life to be the true Church and contrariwise
to maintaine their doctrine make their priest is iudges and yet the master of sentences witnesseth Lib. 4. that omnes Sacerdotes non habent scientiam discernendi all Priests haue not knowledge to discerne What wretched iudges then are Popish priests which haue not knowledge But suppose them to haue knowledge can they discerne the heart Augustine demandeth â—â—n 3. vnde sciunt an verum dicam how doe they know whether I speake truth or no seeing no man knoweth what is in man but the spirit of man But if confession be so necessarie why did Nectarius take away confession and leaue it to euery mans conscience how he would come to the communion A certaine noble woman confessed particularly her sinnes to the Priest Socrat. l. 5. cap. 18. and because a Deacon had slept with her this confession of sinnes was taken away Is confession of sinnes for this one fact was taken away what iust cause was there to alter Popish auricular confession let the world iudge Not to be long in this point set apart abuses in confession and we doe not denie it If any be troubled in his minde for his sinnes let him seeke a skilfull physitian Otherwise we say with Chrysostome Homil. 31. ad Hebr. Non dico tibi vt te prodas in publicuÌ„ neque vt te accuses apud alios sed obedire te volo prophetae diceÌ„ti revela domino viaÌ„ tuaÌ„ I wil not aduise thee to betray thy self opeÌ„ly nor to accuse thy selfe before others but I couÌ„sel thee to obey the Prophet saying OpeÌ„ thy way vnto the Lord. And again Si confuÌ„deris dicere alicui quia peccasti dicito ea quotidie in anima if thou art ashamed to tell thy sins to any speake theÌ„ in thy soule Satisfaction depending vpon confession is in the next place to be handled The Catholike Romane religion saith the Doctor teacheth satisfaction to be done either in this life or in Purgatorie and vpon consideration of this they builded so many goodly Churches hospitals c. In few words the doctor hath condemed all their glorious workes as beeing done for wrong endes We acknowledge the satisfaction of Christ to be our onely satisfaction for sinne and say with S. Iohn If any man sinne he hath an Aduocate with the Father Iesus Christ and he is the propitiation for our sinnes Maxius saith that Christi passio nobis sufficit ad salutem Serm. 3. Christs passion is sufficient to saluation And Bellarm. in his 2. booke de iustificat and 5. chap. writeth thus Nihil frequentius omnis scriptura testatur quam Christi passionem mortem plenam atque perfectam satisfactionem fuisse pro peccatis The whole Scripture doth witnes nothing more often then that the suffering and death of Christ are a full and perfect satisfaction for our sinnes If man might satisfie for sinne he might be called a redeemer and a Sauiour which is horrible to heare of Neither doth this our doctrine robbe the poore of their almes children of their education and the sicke of their reliefe and maketh men vnwilling to doe any good at all The Doctor except he be blind may see that men build Colledges and hospitalls and relieue the poore though they doe it not to satisfie for their sinnes but his confession is to be accepted that faith their building and giuing of almes is to satisfie by which he disgraceth all their workes From satisfaction he commeth to freewill saying that their doctrine causeth the people to endeauour to doe good and flee from all euill the Protestant taking it away discourageth men vtterly from doing good workes for who will goe about a thing which is not in his power What could Pelagius haue said more M. Doctor is it in our power to doe good vnto saluation or no without grace answer directly Our Sauiour Christ saith Without me ye can doe nothing Augustine writeth lib. 1. Retract c. 15. that voluntas in tantum est libera in quantum est liberata our will is so farre free as it is freed To set downe our doctrine briefly We say with the same father 3. Hyp. esse fatemur liberum arbitrium omnibus hominibus non per quod sit idoneum qua ad Deum pertinent sine Deo aut inchoare aut certe peragere we confesse that all men haue freewill not that it is able either to beginne or to perfect those things which belong vnto God without God but onely in the works of this life whether they be good or euill To shut vp the matter doth Cyprian withdraw men from doing good when he saith Dei est omne quod possumus all is of God that we doe Now we must speake of the Masse the Catholike Romane religion teacheth the holy Masse to be a sacrifice in which the true bodie and blood of Christ is offered vp which maketh the people so deuout and reuerent I answer first what if the Priest haue no intent to consecrate what then is become of your sacrifice secondly we knowledge no bodily sacrifice for sinne but onely Christ on the crosse And that I make plaine by the Apostles reasons Where there is no remission of sinne there is no more offering for sinne Heb. 10. but by Christs passion there is perfect remission of sinnes ergo Againe Christ died but once ergo he offered himselfe but once Ireneus writeth thus Oportet not oblationem Deo facere we must offer to God Lib. 4. cap. 34. and in all things yeild thankes to the maker with a pure minde vnfained faith steadfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruits of his creatures And this oblation the Church onely sacrificeth in puritie offering to God of his creatures with thanksgiuing Where is your sacrifice of the very bodie and blood of Christ if the Church sacrificed onely the sacrifice of thanksgiuing Not to heape other testimonies I pray you tell me M. Doctor resolutely and with infallible arguments in which part of the Masse this sacrifice consisteth Bellarmine is his 1. booke de Missa and 27. chap. maketh many propositions and faith some thinke thus and some thus it were therefore good for you to be certaine your selues before you obtrude this sacrifice vpon the people to stirre them to deuotion Now let euery man iudge of this your syllogisme They which teach holy doctrine are the true Church But the Papists teach holy doctrine ergo To make a briefe of that which hath beene handled he chargeth vs with vnholy doctrine because we approoue ministers marriage yet his owne man Panormitan doth the same Bell. lib. 1. de cler cap. 19. Againe he chargeth vs with vnholy doctrine because we allow marriage to the innocent partie after a iust diuorce yet his owne men teach at we teach Caietan and Catharin Thirdly he chargeth vs with the same crime because we teach that all magistrates lawes binde not the conscience yet his owne fellowe Gerson holdeth as we holde Fourthly
a Papist The Doctor further to amplifie our vnlearnednes speaketh thus Take the most learned Doctor of them all and set him to reason with an heathen or with an Atheist and you shall see what goodly arguments he will make Are you not once abashed thus to proceed in vntruths Philip Morney lord of Plessis hath written so learnedly against Atheists that I thinke fewe Papists can doe the like Yet I would not haue you to thinke that it is necessarie to prooue the faith of the blessed Trinitie and other points of diuinitie with naturall reasons Read Aquinas in his first part and 32. quest where you shall finde that Sufficit defendere non esse impossibile quod praedicat fides it sufficeth to defend that that is not impossible which faith teacheth I admire with you the prouidence and goodnes of God towards his Church in furnishing it with all kinds of learning and sciences whereby it may maintaine it selfe against all sorts of enemies be they Iewes Turkes or heretikes whatsoeuer and I also doe not denie your disputations and resolutions of cases of conscience but I denie that the Protestant doth not meddle with these things but fraughteth his shippe onely with faith and neuer beateth his braine about sinnes These odious vntruths the world can controll and for your schoole diuinitie might not the heathen Philosophers haue made the same argument against Christs Apostles they might haue cried loe a few rude ignorant men deceiue the world so the Papists not vnlike the heathen crie a fewe ignorant Lutherans seduce the people The Apostles wanted your schoole tearmes M. Doctor yet it was the truth which they taught But now I draw your reason into a syllogisme Where there is greatest learning there is truth But with the Papists not with the Protestants there is greatest learning Ergo. I answer both propositions are false Heretikes may be well learned Erasm and yet the truth resteth not in their breasts Valentius was vir pollens doctrina iâ—xta eloquentia Valentius was both excellently learned and wonderfull eloquent Laicus simplex a simple lay-man ouercame a Logician and an vnlearned man openeth Christian religion vnto a Philosopher Lib. 2. hist saith the Tripartite historie But that you may see M. Doctor how in this obiection you resemble the old heretikes heare Ireneus Qui relinquunt praeconium Ecclesiae Lib. 5. saith he imperitiam sanctorum praesbyterorum arguunt non contemplantes quanti pluris sit idiota religiosus à blasphemo impudenti Sophista Such as forsake the preaching of the Church argue the vnskilfulnes of holy Elders not considering how farre more worth a religious idiot is then a blasphemous and impudent sophister Thus Christian Reader I haue made comparison of learning beeing thereunto forced De lau sui ipsius The heathen man Plutarch alloweth this for saith he laudare seipsum potest criminis depellendi causa a man may praise himselfe to driue away crimes Paul maintained his dignitie against false Apostles so I haue maintained the Protestants learning against this slanderous and venemous mouthed Doctor My purpose is not to disgrace the learned Papists I know some of them to be skilfull men in tongues and arts and I feare many are so learned that they offend against their consciences Howsoeuer it be let the Protestants be counted ignorant and the Papists learned the Protestants mauger the Pope himselfe will by Gods assistance maintaine their cause And seeing M. Doctor you are so learned I pray you answer M. Doctor Whitakers and other mens workes which haue beene written against poperie Neuer bragge of learning vntill our mens workes against your religion be answered And if you doe this yet I would wish you to marke Augustines speach Melior est in malis factis humilis confessio quà m in bonis superba gloriatio better is an humble confession in doing euill then a proud vaunt in doing well and take heede least as Seneca speaketh you teach men disputare non vivere to dispute and not to liue Learning and religion meete not alwaies in one subiect they lodge not alwaies in one brest To ende this point a man may be learned and yet an heretike The 16. reason Holinesse of life As in the former reason I haue beene compelled to make comparison of learning so here I am enforced to conferre liues Although I would not haue religion measured by the life of any yet to answer this mans vanitie least he should be too proud of popish holinesse I will out of good records set downe the liues of Papists Before I doe this Christian reader I must giue thee to vnderstand that thou maiest not measure religion by externall holinesse as the Doctor himselfe confesseth and therefore in the beginning of the chapter he ouerthroweth the residue of the same for to grant him his externall holinesse which he saith to be in the Catholikes and not to denie their fastings and their praiers all these things may be in hypocrites as it is plaine Math. 6. The Pharisies fasted and praied and did other workes yet was their doctrine erroneous and so is the Papists The Doctor confessed before that they did vndertake fasting to satisfie which ouerthroweth the fasting for Christ hath perfectly answered Gods iustice for vs. Tertullian writeth excellently to this purpose De prâ— Ex personis probamus fidem an ex fide personas doe we prooue the faith by men or men by the faith The Rhemists vpon the 7. of Math confesse that there may be extraordinarie zeale and holinesse in some heretickes which saying is sufficient to ouerthrowe this whole chapter of the Doctor By these proofes it is manifest that we must not measure true religion by externall holinesse and not to stay any longer in this point Iudas betrayed our Sauiour Christ yet he was a Preacher of the Gospel But that the Papists may see their holinesse I will begin with their Popes Fasciculus temporum saith of eight Popes togither Non nisi scandolosa de his repperi I find nothing but scandalous matter of them Stephanus the 6. cut off two of Formosus his fingers and cast his hands into Tiberis Boniface the 8. entred into the Popedome as a Foxe raigned like a lyon died like a dogge Of Boniface the 9. his time saith Largius ItaliaÌ„ totam maxime autem Romam vitiorum vorago c. A gulfe of sin had almost swallowed vp all Italie especially Rome Nowe M. Doctor you haue an vniuersalitie of your holinesse all Italy and specially Rome drowned in sin And because you speake of Simonie Simonaica pestis lethaliter omnia insererat Simonie had inserted all things most deadly saith the same Langius Your Cardinalls were so proud that Caelestine the 5. decreed Quòd nec Papa nec Cardinales cum tanta pompa equis vterentur sed asinis veherentur taÌ„tùm That neither the Pope nor Cardinals should vse horse with such a pompe but they should be carried vpon asses I
his minde at his death it had beene something but seeing he continued constant against the Popish doctrine it is a sure argument of his setled minde against that religion although he could not see all errours at the first Maruaile not then M. Doctor though by little and little he taught against your erroneous doctrines Augustine saith that nemo nisi imprudens quia mea errata reprehendo Lib. 1. Retract me audebit repreheÌ„dere No man that is wise wil find fault with me because I finde fault with my selfe Touching the alteration of the Communion booke we haue made no great alteration these fourtie yeares of it And yet knowe we M. Doctor that ceremonies and matters of indifferencie may be changed so oft as the Church shall see cause But say you who so doeth obserue daiely the order thereof is a cold Protestant or an Atheist for his labour This sauoureth of your accustomed railing and therefore deserueth no answere As for the communion in leauened or vnleauened bread heare your angelicall Doctor Thomas non est de necessitate Sacraments Tertia Pâ— 74. art 4. quod sit azimus vel fermentatus panis quia in vtroque confici potest conueniens autem est vt vnusquisque seruet ritum suae Ecclesia It is not of the necessitie of the Sacrament that it should be either vnleauened or leauened bread but it is conuenient that euery man obserue the rite of his church in the celebration of the Sacrament That some in stead of wine take in the communion nappie ale it may be true in Papists but I knowe no protesants that doe it and as for placing the Communion table and praying with a mans face either towards the south or north be matters of indifferencie Walfridus Strabo writeth of this point thus Vnusquisque suâ— sensu abundet Let euery man abound in his owne sense Yea he sheweth that the altars did not looke all one way but there followeth a great matter concerning reuerend Iewel who first gloried that Christs flocke was little but afterwards vaunted much that our doctrine must needes be true because it was spread so largely As though this reuerend man might not auouch Christs flocke to be sometimes little See Sâ—câ— in his 5. booke and sometimes to be large But if this be such inconstancy I pray you learne M. Doctor that your selues were woont to prooue you to be the Church because of vniuersalitie But nowe your Rhemists seeing Antichrists kingdome lessended will needs prooue your selues the Church vpon the 20. of the â—eueâ— because of the small number Thus is vnconstancie turned vpon your owne heades for indeed it seemeth that you care not what you write to discharge the Pope from beeing Antichrist The same Rhemists will one while haue the reuolt of which Paul speaketh 2. Thessal 2. chap. to be vnderstood from the Romane Empire immediately they say it is very like to be from the Romane Church O admirable constancie What should I examplifie your inconstancie howe Saints heare our praier one whiles they heare them this way another whiles that way These you may read in Bellarmine himselfe the constancie of worshipping of your Images is vncoÌ„stant as I can prooue vnto you Luther his change of opinions I haue answered before the old prouerb may heare fitly be vsed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no one man seeth all things and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the second cogitations are best I will requite the Duke of Saxonie his speech with another it is reported saith Gryneus that he should say Although I am not ignorant that there haue both errours and abuses crept into the Church yet I will not imbrace that Gospel which Luther preacheth Thus the man as I thinke with whose saying you ende your chapter M. Doctor hath done you more harme then good The 18. reason False Prophets and teachers As the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himselfe foretolde that in the later daies there should come false Prophets so we find it by experience Now let vs see whether the notes of false Prophets agree to your selues or vnto vs. To prooue that they agree vnto vs you frame this reason They which come vnsent are false prophets But the Protestants come vnsent ergo The assumption is prooued because we haue neither ordinary or extraordinarie callings Extraordinarâ—e calling we haue none because we worke no miracles that we haue no ordinarie calling it is plaine I answer that Luther Zuinglius and some others were ordained Elders by your selues And therefore they were called ordinarily According to your calling if they were Elders they might preach true doctrine for I hope you ordained not them to preach false doctrine If they lost their ordination because they renounced poperie then haue you lost yours much more because you haue renounced Christs doctrine But I thinke you will not say that they lost their ordination because of your indelible character the Sacraments which imprint this cannot be repealed one of which you make Orders But I would not haue you to thinke that we esteeme so much of your calling as that we regard it beeing corrupt The wicked asked Christ for his authoritie Mat. 21. He that preacheth the Apostles doctrine hath authoritie enough the estate of this church beeing corrupted so that he cannot haue that calling which he would He that is sent to preach may not hold his tongue and tarrie till your Lord the Pope and his mitred fathers can inteÌ„d to consent But you require miracles I answer that Iohn Bapt. did no miracle Thom. 3. 3â— quaest art 2. resp ad 2. giueth this reason Si Iohannes signa fecisset homines ex aequâ— Iohanni Christo attendissent If Iohn had done any miracles men would haue equally attended to him and to Christ It is sufficient that our doctrine is confirmed by Christs miracles Further M. Doctor our preachers were called by the Christian Magistrates whose allowance they had which to be warrantable your selues cannot denie But why doe I followe this point any further Coster a papist confesseth that Quanquam plerique haereticorum Episcopi presbyteri doctores ex ordine munus officium docendi acceperunt nulli tamen facultas data est noua decreta fabricandi sed hoc tantùm candidè sincerè tradendi quod ei qui misit probatur Although many Bishops Elders and Doctors of haeretickes haue receiued orderly the dutie to teach yet to no man is power giuen to make newe opinions but sincerely to deliuer that which is approoued vnto him that sent him Wherefore you reiect our calling prooue that we coyned newe opinions Eusâ—b l. 6. 1â— cap. Origen taught before he was ordained Elder when the Church was sound Demetrius reprehended Alexander Bishop of Hierusalem and Theodistus of Caesarea for suffering him so to doe but they defend themselues and shewe that it may be done ad commodandum fratribus to profit the brethren If this might be done in Constituta Ecclesia in an
established Church bowe much more might it be suffered when as Ecclesia sit constituenda the church is to be constituted Thus hauing defended the calling of protestants let vs see what notes of hereticks and false prophets the scriptures giue Paul in the first of Tim. and 4. chap. giueth these notes of false Prophets to forbidde marriages and to command abstinence from meates Where are these to be found at this day in papists or protestants in protestāts no man will affirme The Manichees did not simply forbid marriage neither condemned they simply meats For Auditores qui appellantur apud Manichaeos carnibus vescuntur si voluerint vxores habent Their hearers did eate flesh and if they would had wiues It remaineth then that these notes be found in Papists Another note of false prophets is to draw men to the seruice of idols Deut. 13.2 Doth this agree any way to Protestants who abandō all monuments of Idolatrie to the Papists it agreeth because they teach that the very wood of the Crosse is to be worshipped with diuine honour Polidor Virgil. lib. 6. cap. 13. speaking of worshipping Saints images saith Haec pars pietatis parum differt ab impietate this pietie differeth little from impietie The third note of false teachers is to despise Dominion as Iude speaketh vers 8. doth not the Pope so who will not be subiect to the Emperour no not to a generall Councell as Witnesseth Eugenius who would not yeeld to the Councel of Basil Yea the papists suborne traytours to murder their lawfull Prince as their own writings prooue The booke I haue named before The fourth note of false Apostles is to teach iustification by the works of the lawe as it is manifest by the Epistle of Paul to the Galat. Doe we so or the papists neither can the papists answer that Paul excludeth the workes of nature onely and not of grace For Paul excludeth not onely the workes of nature but the workes of the ceremoniall and morall lawe as it is plaine For who can imagine that the Galathians beeing instructed in Christ would wholly exclude him from iustification and seeke for iustification either by the works of nature or by the ceremoniall law without Christ Fiftly the false Prophets speake visions of their own hearts Ierem. 23.16 so doe the papists deceiue people with lying visions doctrines of men as I haue proued They teach that the Pope cannot erre that he is aboue Councels where hath the Lord euer taught these things in his word Not to stād vpon any more notes of false Apostles Prophets I desire thee Christian Reader to iudge euen thine owne selfe whether the scripture hath not set downe these notes and whether they can any way agree to the Protestants or no. The 19. reason Lyars slaunderers and reuilers The Protestants are here charged either to haue no conscience at all or els if they haue any it is seared with an hotte iron because they are lyars slaunderers and reuilers Yea they make lying their helpe These M. Doctor are grieuous accusations but before I haue done with you I will turne them vpon your owne head it shall be manifest who are lyars and who haue no conscience whether Papists or Protestants I will first answer your lies which you heape vpon the Protestants The first lie is that Luther saith before his comming the Gospel lay in the dust and was hidden vnder the bench M. Doctor satin sanus es Are you sound to charge all Protestants with Luthers sayings shall one mans speech be the speech of all men apage istas nugas out vpon these follies Luther had this meaning that the Gospel lay in the dust from the time that Antichrist did sit in the temple of God vntil his time and yet it did not so lie in the dust but that many in those times renounced the Pope his speech is comparatiue in regard of the cleere knowledge that now is it lay in the dust Behold now what a lyar Luther is The second lie is this Protestants charge the Papists with Idolatrie yea they inculcate and dull the cares of the people with often telling them of the Idolatrie of their elders And why should we not doe so for proofe of this I will deale syllogistically They which offer sacrifices vnto Images are Idolaters But the papists offer sacrifices vnto Images ergo The proposition is playne because Sacrifice is due onely to God Exod. 22.20 The assumption is testified by Bellarmine lib. 1 de sanct Be◠cap. 13. We offer saith he sweete odours in the Church vnto Images Secondly they which put their hope in wood are Idolaters But the Papists put their hope in wood ergo The assumption is prooued by Aquinas 3. par quaest 15. art who saith that the Church praied to the very wood of the crosse thus O Crosse our only hope create iustice in the Godly giue pardon to the guiltie Thirdly they which dedicate Churches vnto Saints are Idolaters But Papists dedicate Churches to Saints ergo The proposition is plaine out of Augustine lib 1. Read Lud. Vi◠i◠9. lib. de ciuit cap. vlt. cont Maxim Arrian Episc cap. 11. where he prooueth that the holy Ghost is God becaue he hath a temple the assumption is plaine by Erasmus annotations who hath noted in the margent Hoc nunc fit quibuslibet Diuis This is now done to some Saints The Doctor himselfe in his 20. chapter confesseth that parish churches are dedicated vnto Saints When you haue answered these syllogismes M. Doctor you shall haue more proofes of your Idolatrie Bellarmine ingeniously confesseth that pictures of God are not deliuered to the people without daunger except they be instructed of their prelates but the world knoweth that in diuers places of Popery like Priest like People to haue bin and Priests haue bin very Idols themselues The third lie is that some protestants say that the Catholikes hould that Christ satisfied onely for originall sinnes and that hee ordained the Masse for other sinnes which to be a manifest lie all the bookes written of this matter by Catholike diuines doe plainly testifie M. Doctor for triall of this lie these are Canus his words concerning Catharine Amborsij Chatharini deliratio patet peccata ante Baptismum adonissa per crucis sacrificium remitti 433. post baptismum vero per sacrificium altaris The dotage of Ambrose Catharine is manifest that sinnes before baptisme are remitted by the sacrifice of the crosse but sinnes after baptisme by the sacrifice of the alter Marke M. Doctor that your own man Canus chargeth Catharine with dotage in that he held that sinnes onely committed before baptisme were remitted by the sacrifice of the crosse thus the lie is turned vpon your selfe Remember also that your schoolemen teach that Christ came principally to take away originall sin and so doth Bellarmine also lib. 4. de Rom. pont cap. 10. in fine The fourth lie is the protestants assime that the Catholikes
testifieth Arrias Montanus added to the 14. psalme whole sentences but this corruption was soone espied this was done to prooue the Hebrew text corrupt and to iustifie the latine translation approoued of Papists Who almost but bold Papists durst haue coyned scripture I thinke this is to proceede against conscience Latomus a Papist blasphemed out of a pulpit and was suddainly madde and died in despaire What should I speake of Franciscus Spira and others Hasinmullerus giueth many examples of papists who haue proceeded against their consciences The blessed deaths of Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius Caluin Melancthon Bullinger Cranmer Ridely Bradford Philpot Iuell Pilkington Grindall Dearing and diuers other doe manifest that Protestants proceeded not against their knowledge To returne to Papists out of the forenamed author namely Hasinmullerus euery one may behold the strange endes of these men Stephanus Agricola beeing an Apostata drowned himselfe in the sea One Gaspare Franke confessed that he did and wrote many things against his conscience Turrian wished that he had neuer reade the Augustan confession c. Sadel his workes when I found these things to be true to vse your wordes I thought it better to adventure my selfe with Christians who haue quiet consciences then with desperate Papists who proceed against their consciences The 22. reason Vnreuerent dealing The Papists reuerence vnto God and Christ is such as was that of the Iewes who platted a crown of thornes and put it on Christs head to make him a king euen so the Papists make Christ a Sauiour but they giue not the whole worke of saluation vnto him which indeede is to dishonour Christ But forsooth they pretende to honour his Saints if they doe soe let them not make them Sauiours for this in trueth is to dishonour them The Saints honour consisteth not in false worshippe but in giuing all glorie to God That which Lactantius writeth of Angels is true of Saints Nullum sibi honorem tribui volunt quorum honor in Deo est They wil haue no honour giuen to them whose honour is in God We honour Saints by praising God for their vertues and by imitating them but we make not their merits the treasure of the Church neither doe we call vpon them As for reuerence vnto holy water pictures crosses images I say with Esay who required these things at your hands The Doctor in truth hauing nothing to say against vs raileth spitefully saying that we enter into Churches with no greater reuerence then men enter into Tauerns not contenting himselfe with this vnchristian lie he proceedeth auouching if any kneele it is but vpon thornes for full soone are they vp againe and then with their hats vpon their heads they either iangle or talke or walke as if they waited to see when the plaiers would come forth vpon a stage or else these good fellowes goe to the alehouse where now and then they finde their minister drinking his morning draught before he goe to his seruice to drinke a pot or two of nappie ale that thereby they may the better hold out seruice time Christian Reader to recite these reuiling speeches is to refute them and they which frequent the alehouse with vs are Papists and Atheists if any Protestants do so I wish them to amend whether they be ministers or laiemen Besides he hath many moe rayling words against the reuerend Bishops as that Barons and noble men disdaine their companie surely M. Doctor I blesse God that you haue no sound matter to obiect against the Protestants but such vanities as the world can controll Our Bishops and ministers are as highly esteemed with true Christians as Popish Prelates with their fauorites Vertue and learning maketh a man reuerend which in many Popish Bishopps to be wanting we see with our eies But let vs nowe see howe the Papists reuerence holy things speaking of such they vsually say the holy bread the holy Scriptures the holy Gospell and the holy Angels it is well that you doe not so alwaies why then doe you blame the Protestants who doe say the holy bible and vse this word holy whē it is to be applied vnto things that are so if they do not alwaies so you can not blame them more then your selues seeing this word is not alwaies added by you Marke your reasons M. Doctor and you shall finde them without this title holy The Prophesies of the old Testament Scriptures Fathers if this be such a hainous crime not alwaies to adde this word holy you are guiltie of it your selfe As for the French men I thinke they doe not well to call the Saints after this manner Mounsieor S. Peter Master Saint Peter or my Lord S. Peter for it is no tearme of ciuill or temporall authoritie but a religious and diuine honour in religion God is our onely Lord and Master and we will not giue saluation and redemption but onely vnto him The comparison which the Doctor maketh of a countriman calling her Maiesties Nobles Treasurer Keeper Admirall and so forth is not worth any answer wherefore I leaue it and say with Bernard Maria falso non eget honore honora vitae integritatem Marie needeth no false honour honour her entire life So say I honour the saints by imitating their vertues the honour that I desire to giue to saints is to followe their vertues The 23. reason Resembling in Doctrine and deedes olde Heretickes This Chapter is duely to be considered because we are said to differ little or nothing from olde Heretickes both in doctrine and deedes if you could prooue this then were the Protestants case very hard but it shall be God willing made euident that you resemble olde Heretickes and not Protestants The first heresie is that we hold with Simon Magus what monstrous impudencie is this M. Doctor to charge vs will Simō Magus his opinions he held that men were saued by his grace if they did acknowledge him the Sauiour of the world Doe we teach any such thing we ascribe saluation to no other but onely to Christ If you had that conscience which you pretend you would not thus abuse your selfe The second heresie is we are Nouatians because we renounce the Pope I might crie out vpon these lewd and lowd lies Nouatius as Philastrius writeth 34. chap. taught Non esse fideli post Baptismum locum aliquem paenitentiae After baptisme there was no place of repētance for the faithfull The third heresie is that we denie freewill with the Manichees but the Manichees taught that sinne came not from freewill but from a substance which doctrine we renounce and teach that we haue freewill to sinne Lib. 1. c. 6. But you deale with vs as the Pelagians dealt with the auntient Church For Faustus a Pelagian charged the Church with Manichisme because it taught the will of man to be made sound by meere grace and not of it selfe Thus would you charge vs with Manichisme as proud Pelagians The fourth heresie is that with Arrius
presence because the wordes were so plaine and why hath the text bin so tossed that out of it alone there hath bin wronge foure score different opinions I doubt you can hardly shewe so many opinions M. Doctor but graunt it yet a plaine text may not bee vnderstood of euery one and if the text be so plaine as you would haue it howe commeth it to passe that there are so many different opinions also among your selues for you know not howe to expound the word this as I haue prooued in an other worke Scotus confesseth that before the Lateran councell transubstantiation was no matter of faith ergo the wordes this is my body prooue it not Lactantius crieth out after this manner O quam difficilis est ignorantibus veritas quam facilis scientibus O how hard is truth to the ignorante but how easie to the skilfull truth then may be easie in it selfe though difficult to some men Vpon this vaine question you haue made a foolish inference that we haue noe witnesses at all of our newe inuented doctrine but euery one his priuat fancy or conceit whereas the catholike Roman religion hath all things in the world witnesses of it This is a monstrous fable are you able to prooue that all which are in heauen were the children of your church and all that are in hell were enemies vnto it to examine particulars Ignatius you say was of your religion because in Ecclesiasticall affaires he would not haue the king equall to the Bishop and because he wrotte Ecclesiasticall traditions To the first I answer that the true Ignatius would not correct Salomons speech Prou. 24. My sonne saith Salomon honour God and the king but I say honour God and the Bishop as high Priest the true Ignatius was a man of greater religion then that he would haue corrected the scripture but any thing is good inough to patch vp poperie To the second place I answer that it beeing duely considered ouerthroweth the Papists opinion For Ignatius thought it necessarie that the Traditions of the Apostles that is their doctrine should be written for feare of corruption what then is become of vnwritten traditions For that this is the true meaning of Eusebius Grynaeus sheweth Eus l. 5. c. 23. Next vnto Ignatius is Irenaeus placed who is so farre from agnizing the Papall authoritie that he did Acriter Victorem reprehendere sharpely reprooue Victor the Romane Bishop because he excommunicated the Churches of Asia for keeping the feast of Easter in a diuers manner from Rome Would Irenaeus haue done this if the Popes authoritie had beene vniuersall As foâ— Victor if this be your argument he excommunicated the Churches of Asia ergo he was a papist you make a ridiculous reason The next argument of Policarpus his going to Rome is of the same moment for who knoweth not that many mens aduise is vsed who yet haue no authoritie ouer others That Saint Cyprian Syxtus Laurence with infinite others doe witnesse the Romane religion I denie Saint Cyprian is so farre from witnessing all points of poperie that as I haue prooued he is reiected of Papists From men the Doctor commeth to women affirming thousands to haue defended their virginitie against deuils and men What then were they Papists therefore To come to speciallities Helen you say founde out the Crosse Although that historie may be doubted of yet Helen was no Papist for shee did not worshippe the crosse because that was an heathenish errour if shee had beene a Papist shee would haue adored the crosse But the Mother of Augustine Saint Monica was a papist who after death requested that shee might haue Masse said for her here if you meane popish Masse M. Doctor you abuse your selfe most shamefully for shee desired onely a memorie of her at the Communion So had the Prophets and Apostles which were not in your fained Purgatorie By these fewe examples you haue prooued Protestancie then poperie as for the rest which you name Saint Paul the Eremit and others when you prooue them Papists we will beleeue it To your question demanding whether there were any Saints in heaueÌ„ before this our age which were not papists I answer that there were therfore you speake impiously to say that heauen was emptie vntil Luther shooke off his hood or if there were any they were Papists who reuealed these things vnto you M. Doctor Take heede of the pride of Lucifer who would ascend into heauen to know secrets they belong not vnto you The Apostles and Martyrs with thousands I doubt not were in heauen which I am sure were no Papists witnesâ—e their writings From heauen the Doctor commeth to hell I feare me without repentance a fit place for him This iolly fellowe knoweth not onely matters in heauen but also what is done in hell as it seemeth The heathen persecutors are in hell for persecuting the Catholike Church I doubt not but this Catholike Church is not the same with the Romish Church at this day there is ample difference betwixt these And that Constantine gaue great peace to the Church Theod. lib. 1. c. 7. it is true also but he was no Papist for he saith that the holy Scriptures teach vs plainely all things which concerne diuine matters Lastly that all Bishops vnder the cope of heauen were members of this Romish Church is a notorious vntrueth The Doctor to fill vp his reason numbreth many but prooueth not that which he saith The rest of the chapter is but a vaine flourish of words in which I take no delight To drawe his reason into a syllogisme is needlesse because in deede it hath neither head nor foote Amongest many vanities in the ende of the chapter the Doctor saith that he is a Papist because the Romish religion is the most beneficiall of all the rest Christian Reader I feare me that this indeed is the true cause why many are papists namely their commodities But this is sufficient to driue men from poperie that in regard of preferment by this Doctors confession he is a Papist M. Doctor I haue taken away your euidence for poperie for baptisme bindeth no man to falshood Wherefore I beseech you by your saluation choose rather with Moses to suffer affliction then to be the Popes white sonne which as it seemeth by your owne confession you doe because the Romish Religion is most gainefull Out vpon gaine against conscience the Lord open your eies to see the trueth FINIS An admonition to the Reader I desire thee Christian Reader if there be any faults of the Printer to impute them to him not to the author of this booke for he could not be present at the Presse