is read obtulit he offered Andrad in 4. defension 2. Bellarmine thus alleageth out of the canon of the Masse Quod tibi obtulit summus tuus sacerdos Melchisedech Which thy high Priest Melchisedech offered vnto thee libr. 1. de Miss cap. 6. 3. The Rhemists affirme that Melchisedech did offer in bread and wine Annot. in Heb. sect 8. It is false therefore that none of them reade obtulit be offered Secondly Bellarmine though he reade protulit he brought foorth yet vpon the vse of that word he groundeth the sacrifice of bread and wine and saith that it is idem quod offerre all one as to say offer the word 〈◊〉 iatsah signifieth to bring foorth yet it is alwaies saith he in the Scripture restrained to sacrifice lib. 1. de Miss c. 6. And againe wherefore with these words saith he brought foorth bread and wine are those ioyned and he was a Priest of the most high God Nisi vt intelligeremus paneÌ„ vinum à Melchisedecho prolatum vt offerretur Deo but that wee should vnderstand bread and wine to haue been brought foorth of Melchisedech to be offered to God Let any indifferent man now iudge whether Bellarmine doth not by force of that word which is the same as he saith as to offer and the Rhemists which say Melchisedech offered in bread and wine establish the sacrifice of the Masse Both these lies then and vntruths are forged out of the Detectors malicious braine and shaped in his vncharitable conceit so that we may say to him in Augustines words Homini homo falsus docendus fallax cauendus prius magistrum bonum posterius discipulum cautum desyderat A false man is to be instructed a deceitfull to be auoided the first requireth a good teacher the latter a warie learner Academic 2. 5. Though I be out of hope to reforme this false slaunderer yet I trust the reader will take heede of such a deceiuer The third Slaunder SYnops. p. 63. of the latter edition because it is affirmed that the Communion in one kind was forged and inuented and decreed in the Councell of Constance not aboue two hundred yeeres agoe A grosse vntruth saith the Detector because both Thomas Aquinas and Alexander Hales long before allow the Communion vnder one kind and the same Councell of Constance saith it was consuetudo ab ecclesia diutissimè obseruata a custome long obserued of the Church The Defence FIrst who seeth not the cauilling spirit of this Libeller that hunteth after syllables and catcheth after words the defender was not ignorant that this superstitious vse of receiuing in one kinde was in hammering and deuising before the Councell of Constance but that it then onely began to be enforced and decreed as necessarie to be obserued of all that no Priest vnder paine of excommunication should minister vnder both kinds to the people so that the forging inuenting decreeing spoken of is vnderstood of the necessitie of so receiuing whereas it was free before which was first inuented forged and imposed by that Councell Secondly that no such thing was generally obserued before it is euident Concil Matisconens 2. can 4. celebrate about anno 600. and Concil Vormatiens can 31. anno 800. and Concil Bracarens 3. can 1. anno 670. or thereabout all which Councels allow the Communion vnder both kinds as they are alleaged Synops. pag. 560. to the which I referre the reader Thirdly Alexander Hales cited by the Libeller is alleaged by Bellarmine to bee of a contrarie iudgemeÌ„t to the rest of the Schoolmen whose opinion was that more spiritual fruite was receiued by communicating vnder both kinds then in one in 4. part sum qu. 53. memb 1. Fourthly what though this superstition might begin before the Councell of Constance yet it is cleere that it was but an humane inuention which is the thing the Defender would shew and this may appeare by the confession of the Councell it selfe that non obstante notwithstanding Christ did minister the Sacrament vnder both kindes of bread and wine c. similiter licet in primitiua ecclesia c. and likewise though in the Primitiue church this SacrameÌ„t were receiued of the faithfull vnder both kinds yet for all this it was decreed that this custome was rationabiliter introducta brought in vpon good reason I say then with Augustine to this shamelesse gainsayer that laboureth to conquer with lies Non bonum est homini hominem vincere sed bonum est homini vt eum veritas vincat volentem quia malum est homini vt eum veritas vincat inuitum It is not good for a man to ouercome a man but it is good for a man willingly to giue place to the truth for it is euil for a man against his will to be ouercome of the truth epistol 174. So it were better for this slaunderer to be ouercome of the truth and to confesse his fault then to seeke to ouercome with liâ—s The fourth Slaunder SYnops. pag. 6â— the name Christian was vsed in the Apostles time and by the Apostles themselues allowed but it is not certaine that the name Catholike came from the Apostles This the Libeller calleth a certaine vntruth and a lie because in the Apostles Creede we are taught to beleeue the holie Catholike Church and S. Iames Epistle hath the title of Catholike Epistle The Defence FIrst though it might be proued that the Apostles were the authors of the name Catholike yet is it not so certaine as that the name Christian came from them because this is directly expressed in scripture Act. 11. vers 26. The disciples of Antioch were the first that were called Christians but for the name Catholike no such proofe out of Scripture can be alleaged Wherefore in a charitable construction the words may be taken comparatiuely that one is not so certaine as the other The Creed called the Apostles is no Scripture but collected out of it and agreeable to it neither is it certaine whether it were made by the Apostles as it may appeare by that which Cyprian writeth of the article of the descension Sciendum est quod in Ecclesiae Romanae symbolo non habetur additum c. It is to be knowne that in the symbole of the church of Rome it is not added he descended into hell nor in the Churches of the East Cyprian in symbol If then the Apostles by their Apostolicall authoritie had set foorth the Creed it had been great presumption afterward to haue added vnto it Pacianus also Epistol ad Symprosian thus saith Sed sub Apostolis c. But thou wilt say vnder the Apostles no man was called Catholike admit it was so yet graunt this when after the Apostles there were heresies c. did not the Apostolike people require their surname whereby they might distinguish the vnitie of the incorrupt people c. Pacianus seemeth here to grant that the surname Catholike was not vsed in the Apostles time let
cleere my selfe and I trust by this true defence haue sufficiently declared the same from all malicious corruptions such or so many as are suggested so that I nothing doubt in this case to say with S. Paul As for â—e I passe very little to be iudged of you I iudge â—ot mine owne selfe for I know nothing by my selfe 1. Cor. 4. 4. And as Augustineâ—aith â—aith of the false accusations of Petilian Nihil eorum quibus me criminatus est mihi conscius sum I am not guiltie of any thing wherewith he accuseth mee And so I conclude with the same Fathers sentence Etiam me in mea causa sicut inimicus existimari cupit deficiente oppresso victrix erit causa cui seruio Though I should faint and faile in mine owne cause as the aduersarie would haue it imagined yet the cause of truth which I serue shall neuer be conquered libr. 3. cont Petilian cap. 2. Laus Deo Vincat veritas Errata Pag. 3. line 19. Pref. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 5. l. 1. for cationem r. rationem p. 20. l. 15. anno 47. r. canon 47. p. 28. l. 27. non talib r. cum talib p. 33. l. 23. fences r. offences p. 64. l. 19. general 26. r. generat 26. p. 97. l. 12. p. 18. r. p. 180. p. 137. l. 23. Caullers r. Cauillers p. 113. l. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the marg p. 157. l. 13. no heretike r. an heretike p. 163. l. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the marg p. 167. l. 10. againe r. agmina p. 271. l. 17. piae chordae r. pia corda p. 183. l. 28. obseruation r. obsecration p. 202. l. 20. verissima r. verissime p. 205. l. 30. consorteth r. consenteth p. 209. l. 10. aith r. faith Pref. p. 21. l. 6. in the marg 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Places omitted are thus to be supplied Pag. 99. l. 19. lib. 1. cont Iouinian p. 202. l. 20. lib. 2. cont Crescon c. 7. p. 203. l. 17. lib. 2. cont Crescon c. 2. p. 209. l. 10. enaâ—rat in Psal. 26. p. 221. l. 10. lib. cont Petilian 3. 2. p. 228. l. 16. tract 25. in Matth. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Apol. 3. aduers Ruffin 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. Tim. 1. 6. Dialog 1. aduers. Pelagian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Plutarch lib. de prâ—fect virtut sent In Psal. 91. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Homousion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ad Theoph. aduers. Ioan Hierosolym 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Apolog. 3. aduers. Ruffin 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Diuers apparant vntruths vttered by the Libeller A slaunder of Luther that hee should confesse hee was stirred vp of the diuell to write against the Masse Demiss priuat tom 7. p. fol. 243 p. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Contradictions Falsifications 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cont. Iulian. libr. 6. c. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Theophil Hieronym Hom. 3. in Leuitic 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Apolog. 3. aduers. Ruffin Apolog. 3. aduers. Ruffin Lib. 1. cont Iulian. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3. Quodlibet art 10. Lib. 1. aduers Iouin 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Ad Domnionem The peruerse behauiour of Popish disputers Collat. 1. diei ex Augustin breuicul collation Collat. 2. diei Collat. 3. diei Lib. post collation The conference betweene the B. of Eureux and the Lord of Plessis before the French King Aduers Luciferian In 2. Tim. â— 2. In colloquie Ratisâ—onae habit anno 1602. ex Egid. Hunnio Serm. 43. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dialog 3. aduers. Pelagian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 17. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Plutar. de liber educan Seneca 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Exod. 17. Isai. 22. 24. Iere. 26. 24. Act. 5. Pro. 30. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 26. 29. Zach. 14. 20 Ambros. serm 89. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 De natur grat lib. 1. c. 25. Cont. Petilian libr. 2. cap. 98. Samuel appeared not to Saul 1. Sam. 28. 14. Communion in one kind not ancient 1 2 3 1 The name Christian more ancient then Catholike 2 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lay men and women not authorised to baptise in the Church of England 1 2 3 1 Two and twentie bookes of the old Testament only canonicall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A manifest storie denied by the Libeller A fable of a bloodie Crucifix 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Popery stirreth not to godlines of life Certaintie of saluation nourisheth vertue Popish penance no true repen tance Popish doctrine breedeth securitie Carnal doctrine of Poperiâ— Popes examples of loose liuing a Platina b Benno c Sleidano Ex Baleo d Theodor. Niem e Conc. Constant f Raphael Volateran g Vergerius h â—nuphrius Histor. Florentin Guicâ—iardin Sleidano Agrip. de leâ—ocin In sexto de elect fundament in gloss Popish writers complaine of their owne corruptioÌ„s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Saul neuer truly iust Iudas neuer but an hypocrite 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A great blasphemie against the spirit of God and the Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gratian. distinct 56. cap. 2. Caranza Gregorie the 7. no good man Esay 5. 20. Libr. de curiositat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 How it is necessarie 〈◊〉 saluation to know the canonicall scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Fathers profitable instruments notwithstanding some errors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Auricular confession of no great antiquitie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Jnuectiu Ruffin The Fathers refused of popish writers Where are Baals priests 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 2 3 1 2 The vulgar Latine not Hieromes translation Austin the Monke not the first conuerter of England All the Fathers allow not prayer for the dead Augustine against prayer for the dead Ministers maried in Origen Cyprians time Hierome would haue Saints reliques reuerenced not adored Rich men not bound to giue all away Iohns baptisme not diuers froÌ„ Christs How Augustine alloweth profession of virginitie Origen against Christs descension to hell to deliuer the Patriarkes Transubstantiation and the Carnall presence but new doctrines The Papists are fled from the Popes faith of the Carnall presence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Election certaine Election certaine Saul neuer eleâ—â—ed before God How the grace of God may be lost Henoch and Elias not aliue in their bodies Paradise is Heauen Henoch Elias not in the terrestrial Paradise Of the two Prophets Apocal. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dauid and Peters faith not vtterly extinguished Salomons faith not wholy lost in his fall A slaunder The vertues of the Pagans are no true vertues 1 2 3 Peter lost not his iustification though the feeling thereof was for a time suspendâ—d Contradictions of Papists about Peters faith What gifts are without repétance How children are â—aid to be holy Two kindâ— of holines generall and speciall Falsehood Vntruthes Papists not Protestants fauourers of infidels Doctrines of diuels Who are most like to be Balamites 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Ecclesiae Antichrist began in Bernards time Which are the best vowes Vntruth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Falsification Rich men not bound to cast away their riches 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Vntruth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Exceptis diebus dominicis Difference betweene the fast in Augustines time and Popish fasts Fox 1184. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sinne remaineth in the regenerate but liueth not The liuing of sinne and raigning of sinne all one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Falsification No Purgatory beleeued in Augustines time Difference betweene commemoration and commendation of the dead and prayer for the dead No new merits obtained for the dead by the prayers of the liuing Prayer for the dead of pitie rather theÌ„ necessitie in Augustines time Reasons out of Augustine against prayer for the dead Augustine knoweth no third place beside heauen and hell No man profited being dead but by that which he did in his life The soule at rest presently after death if euer Sinne is only forgiuen in this life No repentance vnto remission of sinnes after death No hope for the impenitent after death 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A Falsifier The Martyrs are Christs body Contradiction But one kind of religious inuocation Augustine speaketh of spirituall sacrifice We must not beleeue in the Apostles Augustine against Prayer to Saints How Saints are to be honoured An entercourse of loue betweene the members of the triumphant and militant Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 De perfect iusticiae cont Celestin ratioâ—in 16. The Lawe no man can keepe though assisted with grace The agreement of the Pelagians and Papists De perfection iustit cont Celestium ratiocinat 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Papists opinion of free will 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A hard law against persons once abiured Difference in Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall proceeding 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 True faith and a good conscience suffer wracke together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Scripture alleaged in sense not in words A Falsifier 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 2 We are all vnprofitable seruants in veritie not only in humilitie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Death the wages of all sinne Simon Magus neuer but an Hypocrite 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iustification only by faith Christ died onely for the Elect. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
9. c. 6. doctrinal that those books are called Protocanonici Canonicall of the first sort that are found in the Hebrue Canon the other Deuterocanonici Canonicall of the second sort and in this sense doth the Councell of Carthage call the Apocryphall bookes Canonicall 2. Secondly it is neither absurd nor vntrue to say that the Laodicene Councell omitting to make mention of the Apocalypse among the Canonicall bookes at that time iudged it also not to bee canonicall for the authoritie of that booke was a long time doubted of for the Councell calleth all other bookes beside those rehearsed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bookes not canonicall 3. But the Libeller hath vttered a great vntruth that the Apocalypse hath no more ancient authoritie then the Councel of Carthage which was about anno 420. seeing that Origen long before holdeth it to be canonicall Homil. 7. in Iosuam where rehearsing the books of the New Testament as of the foure Euangelists the Acts of the Apostles 14. Epistles of Paul two Epistles of Peter the Epistles of Iames and Iude he further saith Addit Ioannes tuba canere per epistolas suas Apocalypsin Iohn also proceedeth to sound his trumpet by his epistles and the Apocalypse The Libeller then might haue been otherwise occupied then here to haue noted an vntruth vpon no greater ground he might haue employed his time and pen much better he should haue remembred Platoes saying to his schollers when they went from schoole See children that you vse your otium to some honest purpose Or if his pen must needes runne to drop lies he should haue followed Origens aduice Homo cui incumbit necessitas mentiendi diligenter attendat vt sic vtatur mēdacio quomodo medicamine condimento vt seruet mensuram He that hath necessitie to lie must be carefull to vse his lying as a sause or medicine to keepe a measure ex apolog Hieron cont Ruffin But this Libeller neither was forced to lie and hauing begun he can finde no measure in so doing The ninth Slaunder WHereas it is thus alleaged Synops. pag. 209. Leo the third confirmed by his decree that the bloud which issued out of a woodden Crucifix at Mantua was the very blood of Christ anno 800. what broadface dealing is this saith the Libeller to vent foorth such a shamelesse lie c. The Defence 1. THough no author in that place be alleaged for the proofe of this storie if it had pleased this cauiller to haue looked in the end of the booke hee might there haue found these words after the Errata Whereas pag. 374. 381. and elsewhere I alleage diuers things of the acts of the Popes forgetting to cite the authors I referre the reader to the collections of master Bale out of Platina Functius and others in his booke Deactis Romanor pontific 2. But because this authoritie will not content him I will report the very words of Platina in the storie of Leo 3. At Leo cum seditionibus vexaretur ab vrbe discedens Mantuam proficiscitur ad vtsendum Christi sanguinem qui tum miraculis magno erat in pretio is autem perbenigne susceptus approbato Christi sanguine ob frequentia miracula ad Carolum proficiscitur vt hominem cognoscendae veritatis cupidum eius rei certiorem faceret But Leo being troubled with sedition departing from the citie goeth to Mantua to see the bloud of Christ which then because of miracles was in great price he being gently receiued hauing approued it to be the bloud of Christ because of many miracles goeth to Charles to certifie him of this matter being a man desirous to know the truth How say you now sir Detector haue you not detected your owne follie and ignorance to denie a storie written by one of your owne Chroniclers though here no mention be made of a wooden Crucifix which must bee supplied out of master Bale yet the substance of the storie we haue that Leo approued it which is all one as to say in his iudgement he decreed it for here is no consistoriall decree spoken of to be the bloud of Christ. 3. And if Platina be not of credit sufficient the like storie is brought in by Ioannes Monachus in the 2. Nicen Synod action 4. how a certaine Iew succeeding a Christian in his house found there the image of Christ which hee with other Iewes running vpon doe wound it on the side and thereout issued as much bloud as filled a great Hydrie a water tankerd or bucket by the which bloud the sicke were healed and many miracles wrought and thereof was sent in glasses to all parts of Asia Africa Europa and the tale endeth thus Hic est sanguis ille Dominicus qui apud plerosq repertus dicitur This is the Lords bloud which is said to haue been found with many This Synod with the acts thereof was ratified by Adrian 1. the immediat predecessor of this Leo 3. so that it seemeth more likely that hee by the example of Adrian might giue credit and approue the like fable done at Mantua Now let any indifferent man iudge which of the two hath vented the shamelesse lie the defender in reporting as hee findeth or the detector in malicious denying of that which he ignorantly knoweth not he must learne to be more cunning in histories before hee take vpon him to find fault with historical reports Sure whether he be broad or chittefaced I know not for he neither telleth vs his name nor dareth to shew his face yet by his shamelesse writings we may as well discerne him as by his bold face to whom that sentence of Augustine may fitlie bee applied though not altogether in his sense Libri tui pene totum te nobis exhibent si enim propterea te non nouimus quia faciem corporis tui non vidimus hoc modo nec ipse te nosti nam tu quoque non vides eam Your bookes doe shew you whollie what you are for if wee therefore know you not because wee haue not seene your face neither do you know your selfe because you see not your face August epist. 9. Hieron We need no better glasse to shew the Libellers audacious face then his immodest and slaunderous pen. The tenth Slaunder SYnops. pag. 609. The Masse promiseth sufficient redemption to the wicked that haue spent their life in drunkennes adulterie c. if they come to the Church and heare a Masse and take holie bread and holie water or finde a soule Priest or giue somewhat to the Priest to doe penance for them though they neither pray nor repent nor heare the word preached For this the Libeller crieth out a shamelesse mate a notorious lie c. and Roger Holland that died for the Gospell who thus much confesseth of himselfe he calleth in derision holie Holland one of Foxes Martyrs runnagate Roger. The Defence FIrst as Plato bid Xenocrates a sowre and austere man to sacrifice to the Graces so
workes The Libeller should rather haue shewed himselfe and entred into the lists and handled some controuersie of religion and taken vpon him to confute SYNOPSIS which hee carpeth at But as one said to Philip when he had ouercome and destroyed Olynthus that he could not build such a citie againe so I think it would appose this Sophister and trouble his wit to set such another booke by it as that which he seeketh so much to disgrace But I will proceed to examine the rest of his accusations not fearing any thing which he can obiect THE SECOND CHAPTER OF supposed Contradictions The 1. Contradiction HEre the Libeller obiecteth 1. That Bellarmine is falsified to say that the spirit of God is witnesse vnto vs that the Scriptures are the word of God pag. 154. 2. That the Scriptures themselues are witnesses which words vttered by Bellarmine shew a far different meaning saith he p. 155. 3. Another vntruth is noted that Bellarmine should make no mention of the Church to be a probation vnto vs of the Scriptures pag. 156. 4. A contradiction is noted because it is confessed that Bellarmine should say that wee are not bound to take the Scriptures for the word of God without the authoritie of the Church pag. 148. The Reconciliation 1. FIrst what difference I pray you to say God himselfe is a witnesse to vs and the spirit of God is a witnesse for this is one exception which the libeller taketh is not the spirit of God God And think you that when Bellarmine said God himselfe is witnesse he excluded the spirit As though the inspiration interpretation protection and preseruation of the Scriptures be not the worke of the spirit of God 2. Timoth. 3. 16. 2. Pet. 1. 21. Yea but Bellarmine saith in another sense that God is a witnesse not by the inward testimony of his spirit but by defending the scripture from humane profanation by heauenly punishment Libel pag. 154. Cont. 1. Is this a good consequent I pray you God beareth witnesse to the Scripture sometime by taking vengeance Ergo not by the inward testimonie of his spirit Sir Sophister if your Logicke had not here failed you you would not haue made so slender a collection for whereas Bellarmine maketh the great number of miracles the fift witnesse doth not the Scripture say Hebr. 2. 3. God bearing witnesse thereto with signes and wonders and diuers miracles God then is not a witnesse onely by punishments but by signes and miracles 2. Bellarmine himselfe saith afterward in the same chapter Non omnes per internum afflatum Deus docet c. sed per corporales literas quas legeremus cerneremus erudire nos voluit God teacheth not all by inward inspiration c. but by corporall letters which we should reade and see hee would instruct vs. We also refuse immediate reuelations and inspirations but God by the lection and inspection of the Scriptures doth instruct vs. God then doth vse the Scriptures themselues as meanes of this spiritual instruction which is the inward testimonie of Gods spirit by our outward reading and hearing of the Scripture inwardly witnessing the truth thereof vnto vs how much I pray you differ we now 3. Whereas Bellarmine maketh these the witnesses of Scripture first the trueth of the prophesies secondly the agreement of the holie writers thirdly God himselfe fourthly the perpetuall truth of the Scriptures may it not wel be gathered hereupon that Bellarmine thinketh that God inwardly working in our hearts by the Scriptures themselues which wee finde to be most perfect consonant true doth teach vs which is the word of God for I pray you who maketh vs to acknowledge the Scriptures by the truth harmonie constancie thereof doth not the spirit of God by these meanes mouing and perswading the heart Bellarmine then is not slaundered at all when it is affirmed that in this place he holdeth as wee doe concerning the meanes how to know the Canonicall Scriptures for we also teach that the Scriptures by no forren or extrinsecall meanes but from themselues the veritie harmonie holines thereof the spirit of God hereby working in our hearts are knowne to be the word of God 2. Secondly let it be seene whether in a different sense Bellarmine and wee in this place for I deale no further doe make the Scriptures witnesses to themselues These are his words Fourthly the Scripture it selfe is witnesse whose prophesies if they were true of things to come why should not the testimonies of things present be true The Scripture then beareth witnesse to it selfe by the constant and perpetuall truth thereof what other thing doe we say but that the Scripture from it self doth proue it selfe by the truth constancie maiestie thereof to be the word of God 3. Thirdly Bellarmine maketh here no mention of the Church among these fiue witnesses 1. The truth of prophecies 2. The consent of the holie writers 3. God himselfe c. 4. The Scripture it selfe 5. Postremò testis est c. Lastly is witnesse the infinite number of miracles Now I pray you sir Cauiller is here any mention made of the Church your dealing is too childish to send vs to other places for Bellarmines iudgemēt I know him to be elsewhere corrupt enough I onely vrge his testimonie against himselfe in this place 4. Fourthly so is your supposed contradiction also reconciled for to say that Bellarmine in this place among these fiue witnesses maketh no mention of the Church and y◠otherwhere he would haue the Scriptures depend vpon the authoritie of the Church is no contradiction in him that noteth this diuersitie but in Bellarmine that varieth from himselfe But now somewhat to answere to your blasphemous railings as pag. 154. God may punish him for such trickes of falsification tending to the seducing and vtter subuersion of sillie soules c. I say rather with S. Paul God shall smite thee thou painted wall Act. 23. 3. God wil iudge all such hypocrites in his time as make no conscience to slaunder and reuile the members of Christ. And if God doe sometime giue witnesse to the Scriptures as most true it is by punishing them that prophane or blaspheme them then how shall your popish writers escape vnpunished that haue not been ashamed thus vnreuerently to speake of the Scriptures Hosius saith it is egenum quoddam elementum a beggerly element ex Nicol. Gall. Lodouicus saith Scriptura est quasi mortuum atramentum The Scripture is as dead inke Illyric in vorm concil The Bishop of Poicters Scriptura estres inanimis muta The Scripture is a dumbe and dead thing Sleidan lib. 23. Eckius calleth it Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam A blacke Gospel and inky Diuinitie Kemnit pag. 23. Pigghius Sunt velut nasus cereus The Scriptures are as a nose of waxe Hierar libr. 3. cap. 3. And that the children may fill vp the iniquitie of their fathers of late this present yeere 1602. in a certaine colloquie at
hominis qui expectatur venturus in maiestate filium perditionis in signis mendacibus praeparare We must know that the enemie goeth about craftily to dissemble and colour the comming of Christ to deceiue the faithfull and in steed of the sonne of man which is expected in maiestie to prepare the sonne of perdition with lying signes and hypocrisie Fourthly to prooue the popish religion grounded vpon antiquitie the Libeller giueth instance in diuers particulars First because Austin the Monke is affirmed in Gregorie the firsts time to be one of the Captaines and ringleaders of superstition it is inferred that our land was first conuerted to the popish religion a thousand yeeres agoe p. 178. Contrà 1. Austin brought in some superstitious rites which now the Romane church still retaineth but yet the grossest points of Poperie as of adoration of Images transubstantiation iustification by workes and such other are nothing so ancient Neither neede it seeme strange that some errors crept into the Church a thousand yeer since seeing that the mysterie of iniquitie began to worke in the Apostles time 2. Thessal 2. 7. and 6. hundred yeeres after Christ the Church began much to decline and degenerate 2. Austin the Monke was not the first conuerter of the English nation for in Hieromes time the Britaines had receiued the Gospell De Hierosolymis de Britannia aequaliter patet aula calestis Heauen is open as well in Britannie as at Ierusalem Hieron ad Paulin. And Origen aboue an hundred yeere before Hierome confesseth as much Mortalium vniuersam naturam verbum peruicit c. nec humanum genus aliquod licet spectari quod non huius susceperit disciplinam The worde hath ouercome the nature of the vniuersall world neither is there any kind of men to be seene which hath not receiued the discipline thereof lib. 2. cont Celsum This our countrie was then many hundred yeeres conuerted to the faith before Austin was sent from Rome And as it began in the holy Apostolike faith so wee trust it shall make an end and that faith which it receiued at Christs going out of the world wee assuredly hope through Gods mercie that it shall render vnto Christ at his comming againe to iudge the world 2. Epiphanius and Augustine noted Aerius for an heretike because he denied prayer and oblation for the dead Answ. 1. Because Augustine and Epiphanius so thought doth it follow that all antiquitie is on your side and that all the fathers so thought Cyprian saith Confiteantur singuli delictum suum dum adhuc qui deliquit in seculo est dum admitti coÌ„fessio eius potest dum satisfactio remissio facta per sacerdotem apud Deum grata est Confesse euery man his sinne while he that hath sinned is in the world while his confession may be admitted while satisfaction and remssion done by the priest is gratefull vnto God serm de lapsis Ambrose saith Mors deteriorem statum non facit sed qualem in singulis inuenerit talem iudicio futuro reseruat Death maketh no mans state worse but such as it findeth euery man in it reserueth to the iudgement to come de bon mort cap. c. 4. Bernard vpon these words Eccles. 11. 3. If the tree doth fall toward the South or toward the North where the tree falleth there it shall be thus writeth Men are as trees the tree is cut vp in death which way soeuer it falleth there it shall be quia ibi te iudicabit Deus vbi inuenerit videat quo casura sit antequam cadat quia postquam ceciderit non adijciet vt resurgat sed nec vt se vertat c. for God shall iudge thee there where he shall finde thee let the tree looke which way it shall fall before it doe fall for after it be fallen it shall no more rise nor turne it selfe Serm. paru 49. If then the state of the dead cannot be altred if they shall be iudged in that condition wherein they die doth it not strongly follow that it is in vaine to pray for the dead But what if Augustine himselfe sometime be of another minde what is become then of your shew of antiquitie as serm 21. in Matth. Qualis quisque hinc exierit suo nouissimo die talis inuenitur in seculi nouissimo die nihil te adiuuabit quod hîc non feceris vnumquemque opera sua iuuabunt aut opera sua pressura sunt Such as euery man goeth hence in his last day such shall he be found in the last day of the world nothing shall helpe thee which thou hast not done here euery mans workes shall either helpe him or cast him down Then it followeth that prayer profiâ—eth not yâ— dead because it is not done by themselues And yâ—t more euidently Serm. ad fratres in eremâ—â— 2. Si dicis pro quo petere debeas dico quod pro bene male viuentibus vt bonus perseueret malus conuertatur non pro sanctis non pro damnatis c. If you say for whom must I pray I say for good and euill liuers that the good may perseuere the euill may bee conuerted not for the Saints not for the damned c. The author of these Sermons maketh but two sorts of the dead after this life the blessed and the damned for both which it is in vaine to pray It may bee obiected that serm 44. this author alloweth suffrages to be made for the dead I answere that that sermon is not like to be Augustines because it disagreeth from him in other places as cont Pelag. artic 5. Augustine maketh but two places after this life heauen and hel Tertium penitus ignoramus immo nec esse in scripturis sanctis inuenimus The third place we are ignorant of nay we finde it not to be in the Scriptures Lastly what if wee should yeeld you Epiphanius and Augustine for this opinion of prayer for the dead will ye yeeld vs them for the rest Epiphanius directly condemneth the adoration of Images epist. ad Ioann Hierosoly where seeing a painted cloath habens imaginem tanquam Christi hauing as it were the image of Christ he commaunded it to be taken away because he saw the image of a man hanging in the Church of Christ against the authoritie of the Scripture Augustine against the carnall presence the adoration of Images the doctrine of merits free will and in an hundred points more is wholy ours against the Papists It were too long to giue a particular instance in them all in this place I referre the Reader to the treatise of the controuersies 3. Concerning Siricius and Gregories authorities for the inhibiting of mariage to the Clergie I haue answered before contradic 2. and what the ancient Church did hold for the lawfulnes of the mariage of Ministers it is shewed at large Synops. from pag. 262. to pag 269. Cyprian lib. 4. epist. 10. maketh mentioÌ„ of one Numidicus a Presbyter Qui
Christ is as well present in Baptisme as in the Eucharist which is not after a carnall manner but spirituallie Twentie such places might be alleaged out of their owne decrees Concerning transubstantiation also Cuthbert Tonstal saith LiberuÌ„ fuit ante concilium Lateranense It was free before the Councel of Lateran and euery man was left to his owne coniecture libr. 1. de Euchar. Cusanus saith Quidam veteres theologi intellexisse reperiuntur c. Certaine auncient diuines are found of this mind that the bread in the Sacrament is not transubstantiate but clothed with a more noble substance Excitat libr. 6. How then is not the libeller ashamed to say that the doctrine of the Reall presence was generally beleeued before Berengarius taught the contrarie 3 At what time Berengarius impugned the Reall presence certaine superstitious Monkes as Lanfrancus Guimondus Algerius Fulbertus Hildebrand held the contrarie so that there was an opposition and partes taken then the Pope Leo the 6. not Leo 9. for the figure is mistaken and the Libellers skill did not serue him to correct it anno 1049. tooke part with the Monkes and their Monkish opinion and condemned the opinion of Berengarius So did Nicolaus 2. that suceeded not long after cause the said Berengarius to recant in a synod at Rome ex Wilhel Malmesburio de gest Anglor libr. 3. And this was the cause of Berengarius trouble because he opposed himselfe not against the auncient doctrine of the Church but against the new superstitious conceite of certaine Monkes with whom these Popes tooke part for their aduantage And this may appeare by the recantation of Berengarius reported by Gratiane that he did hold the same faith Quam Dominus venerabilis Papa Nicolaus haec sancta synodus authoritate Euangelica Apostolica tenendam tradidit Which the Lord and venerable Pope Nicolas and this holy synode by their Euangelicall and Apostolicall authoritie did deliuer to be held De consecrat distin 2. c. 42. This synode then was the first that decreed the carnall presence 4 Whereas Berengarius subscribeth to the fayth of Pope Nicholas the bodie and the blood of Christ Sensualiter in veritate manibus sacerdotum tractari frangi fidelium dentibus atteri To be sensiblie and in truth handled by the Priests and broken and rent with the teeth of the faithfull how commeth it to passe that the Papists are now fled from this faith For Bellarmine dare not say that the bodie of Christ is chawne and rent of the teeth but the shewes and accidents of the bread and wine de Euchar. lib. 3. c. 10. And the contrarie to this faith of Nicolas is alleaged by Gratian out of Augustine dist de consecr 2. c. 47. Quid paras dentes ventrem crede manducasti Why doe you prepare your teeth and belly beleeue and you haue eaten Now let any man iudge whether as this challenger maketh his bragges antiquitie stand soundly with the Papists in the doctrine of prayer for the dead inuocation of Saints adoration of relikes prohibition of mariage Limbus patrum the Carnall presence it falleth out vnto him as Cato was wont to say Qui ridiculis rebus seriam impenderent operam in serijs fore ridiculos They which were serious in ridiculous matters should be ridiculous in serious so whereas in many friuolous obiections before this Sophister was very earnest and layd on load in this waightie contention about antiquitie he hath made himselfe ridiculous I wish rather that his eyes were opened that he might see the nakednes of their religion and how true antiquitie fauoureth them not Thus by iustifying their errors he doth adde vnto his fault as Augustine saith Nolens se esse reum addit potius ad reatum sua excusando peccata ignorat non se poenam remouere sed veniam He that will not be guiltie doth adde to his guiltines and he little knoweth that he doth not remoue the paine but the pardon de continent c. 5. The 9. Contradiction SYnops. p. 924. He that is once the sonne of God is alwaies to the end this doctrine is noted to be 1. dangerous 2. false 3. contradictorie to it selfe The Reconciliation FIrst it is dangerous saith he that whereas it is said that the children of the faithfull are holy euen before they be baptized and so consequently can neuer fall out of Gods grace it spurreth to all desperate villanie as to too much experience hath taught vs. Contra. 1. The Children of the faithfull are said to be holy not in respect of their eternall election as though all such were sure to bee saued but in respect of the outward coueuant made to the Church whereof they are members being the seed of the faithfull and therfore this is impertinently alleaged and it is as simply inferred that because the children of the faithfull are holie as the Apostle saith 1. Corinth 7. 14. Ergo they cannot fall out of Gods grace 2. Not the Protestants faithfull assurance of saluation but popish religion spurreth some to all villanie as this land hath had too wofull experience in their conspiraciâ—s treacheries rebellions and traiterous practises both against their Prince and Countrey though God be thanked they haue failed of their wicked hope Assurance of saluation breedeth not carnal securitie but godly carefulnes that they may walke worthie of their calling as the Apostle saith We are chosen in him c. that we should be holy Ephes. 1. 4. And if Princes that should giue securitie of their goods to their subiects were able to guide their hearts and keepe them in obedience as God doth gouerne the elect there were no daunger 3. This disputer ignorantly confoundeth two questions one of the certaintie of election before God the other of the assurance thereof to our selues the first is here affirmed and grounded vpoÌ„ that text Ioâ— 13. 1. Whom God loueth he loueth to the end which text he is neuer able to answere and therefore windeth himselfe to another matter of assurance of saluation but that our election is certaine in Gods eternall decree the popish Diuines themselues doe graunt as Thomas Aquinas Peter Lombard Gratian Espenceus as they are alleaged Synops. pag. 824. and I know none of learning amongst them that denie it but this brabler that euery where proclaimeth his owne ignorance Secondly where that text is vrged Galath 5. 4. Ye are euacuated from Christ which are iustified by the law ye are fallen from grace to prooue that election may bee lost the answere is soone made 1. They which seeke for iustification by the law are said to fall from grace not of election before God but in respect of their apparance vnto men in losing and falling away from the meanes which should bring them to saluation As Ambrose saith writing vpon these words of the Lord to Moses Exodus 32. 33. Him that sinneth will I blot out of the booke of life Secundum iustitiam iudicis
which are spirituall sacrifices Yea if you be remembred or haue sung your first Masse your own mouth then said in the Canon Offerimus tibi hoc sacrificium laudis We offer vnto thee this sacrifice of praise Your owne Masse booke will tell you why the Eucharist is called a sacrifice because therein praise and thanksgiuing is offered vnto God 4. Fourthly whereas he would faine win Augustines fauour to be of his side I will first shew how much without cause they presume of Augustines kindnes and then answere to the allegations by him produced 1. Nuâ—quid aliquis apostolorum dicere auderet qui credit in me non credit in me sed in illum qui misit me credimus enim apostolo non credimus in apostolum non enim apostolus iustificat impium c. Did any of the Apostles dare to say he that beleeueth in me doth not beleeue in me but in him that sent me we beleeue the Apostle not in the Apostle for the Apostle doth not iustifie the wicked but to him that beleeueth in him that iustifieth the wicked faith is imputed for righteousnesse in Ioann 54. If then it bee not lawfull to beleeue in the Apostles then not to pray to them Rom. 10. 14. How shall they call vpon him in whom they haue not beleeued 2. De ciuitat Dei libr. 8. cap. 27. Nec tamen noâ— ijsdem martyribus templa sacerdotia sacra sacrificia constituimus c. honoramus eoruÌ„ memorias tanquam sanctorum hominum dei c. quis autem audiuit aliquando fidelium stantem sacerdotem ad altare c. dicere in precibus offero tibi sacrificium Petre vel Paule vel Cypriane cum apud eoruÌ„ memorias offeratur Deo c. quaecunque igitur adhibentur religiosorum obsequia in martyrum locis ornamenta sunt memoriarum non sacra vel sacrificia mortuorum tanquam deorum Neither do we appoint Churches Priests holie things and sacrifices to Martyrs c. we honour their memorie as of holie men c. who of the faithful euer heard the priest standing at the Altar built vpon the bodie of a Martyr to the honour of God say in his prayers I offer to thee Peter Paul or Cyprian a sacrifice when at their memories they offer to God what seruice soeuer then is done of the deuout in the places of Martyrs are ornaments of their memories not sacrifices of the dead as of Gods 3. Serm. 14. de natali Domini Inuoca Virgo sancta Deum tuum Dauid patrem tuum non illum Dauid adulterio fuscatum c. Holy virgin call vpon thy God Dauid thy father not that Dauid polluted with adulterie but that Dauid which stroue with the diuell If Dauid be not to be prayed vnto what priuiledge haue the Saints of the new Testament more then they of the old 4. Ser. 6. de Steph. Exaudi me sancte meus virginis filius ad me exaudiendum vnus Heare me my holie Lord sonne of the virgin one or alone sufficient to heare me If Christ alone heare vs Saints are not appointed to heare vs nor we to pray to them 5. Cont. Faustum lib. 20. cap. 21. Quis antistitum in locis sanctorum corporum assistens altari aliquando dixit offerimus tibi Petre Paule vel Cypriane sed quod offertur offertur Deo c. Which of the Ministers standing by the Altar in the places of the Saints euer said we offer vnto thee Peter Paul or Cypriane but that which is offered is offered to God c. And againe Colimus martyres eo cultu dilectionis societatis quo in hac vita coluntur homines Dei c. We worship Martyrs with the same worship of dilection and fellowship wherewith holie men are worshipped in this life A ciuill adoration then such as is due vnto men is to be yeelded to the Saints departed and no other 6. De vera religion cap. 55. Non nobis sit religio cultus hominum mortuorum c. honorandi sunt propter imitationem non adorandi propter religionem c. quare honoramus eos charitate non seruitute c. The worship of the dead is no religion vnto vs c. they are to be honoured for imitation not to bee adored for religion c. wherfore we honour them with loue not with seruice Here all religious seruice is denied to Saints and consequently prayer which is a part of religious worship By these testimonies then alleaged it appeareth what Augustines minde was of the inuocation of Saints Secondly to answere to the places obiected First where Augustine saith Adiuuet nos orationibus suis c. Let him helpe vs with his prayers speaking of Cyprian lib. 7. de Baptis cont Donatist cap. 1. not lib. 6. as he hath erroniously noted in the margin this sheweth not that Augustine did inuocate Cyprian hee doth not say Sancte Cypriane Holy Cypriane pray for me for he as is before alleaged testifieth that no priest thus saith in his praiers But hereby Augustine declareth the communion betweene the Church triumphant and militant that they wish well vnto vs and do long to see vs in their state And thus Augustine expoundeth himselfe lib. 5. de Baptis c. 17. speaking of Cyprian Praesens est non solum per literas sed per ipsam quae in illo maxime viguit charitatem c. cui ego inhaerere conglutinari desyderans orationibus eius adiutus Hee is present not onely by his letters but by that charitie which did most flourish in him which charitie I desire to bee ioyned vnto helped with his prayers This then sheweth nothing els but a charitable entercourse betweene the members of the triumphant and militant Church that as we giue thankes for their deliuerance so they doe long for ours and wish the same So Augustine in another place Ergo sancti non petunt pro nobis c. Do not then the Saints pray for vs doe not the Bishops ministers pray for the people yea marke yâ— Scriptures the Apostles pray for the people the people for the Apostles Inuicem pro se omnia membra orent caput pro omnibus interpellet Let all the members pray one for another and the head make intercession for all in epist. Ioann tract 1. It is not then all one to say the Saints pray for vs in their desires vnto God and we must pray to them Secondly where Augustine is alleaged de cur pro mortuis cap. 4. The affection of him that prayeth and remembreth doth commend his beloued soule to the Martyr This sheweth not that humble supplication was then made to Martyrs but that in their affection and desire they wished to haue the assistance of Martyrs as Augustine elsewhere in Psal. 69. Audiamus Martyres loquamur cum eis ex affectu cordis Let vs heare the Martyrs and speake with them out of the affection of the heart Wee then no otherwise speake to the Martyrs then they speake