the Lords he sate downe in his chaire remoued forward from the cloth of State a prettie distance where beginning with a most graue and princely declaration of his generall drift in calling this assembly no nouell deuise but according to the example of all Christian Princes who in the commencement of their raigne vsually take the first course for the establishing of the Church both for doctrine and policie to which the verie Heathens themselues had relation in their prouerbe A Ioue Principium and particularly in this land King Henry the eight toward the ende of his raigne after him King Edward the 6 who altered more after him Queene Marie who reuersed all and the last Queene of famous memory so his highnesse added for it is worth the noting that his Maiestie neuer remembreth her but with some honourable addition who setled it as now it standeth wherein hee sayd that he vvas happier then they in this because they were faine to alter all thinges they found established but he saw yet no cause so much to alter and chaunge any thing as to confirme that which he found well setled already which state as it seemed so affected his royal hart that it pleased him both to enter into a gratulation to almightie God at which wordes hee put off his hat for bringing him into the promised land where Religion was purely professed where he sate among graue learned and reuerend men not as before else where a King without state without honor without order where beardlesse boyes would braue him to his face and to assure vs that he called not this assembly for any Innouation acknowledging the gouernement Ecclesiasticall as now it is to haue beene approued by manifold blessings from God himselfe both for the encrease of the Gospell and vvith a most happie and glorious peace Yet because nothing could be so absolutely ordered but something might bee added afterward thereunto and in any state as in the body of man corruptions might insensibly grow either through time or persons and in that hee had receiued many complaintes since his first entrance into the kingdome especially through the dissentions in the Church of many disorders as he heard and much disobedience to the lawes with a great falling away to Popery his purpose therefore was like a good Physition to examine trie the complaintes and fully to remoue the occasions thereof if they proue scandalous or to cure them if they were daungerous or if but friuolous yet to take knowledge of them thereby to cast a sop into Cerberus his mouth that hee may neuer barke againe his meaning beeing as hee pleased to professe to giue factious spirites no occasion hereby of boasting or glory for which cause hee had called the Bishops in seuerally by themselues not to be confronted by the contrary opponents that if any thing should be found meete to be redressed it might be done which his Maiestie twise or thrise as occasion serued reiterated without any visible alteration And this was the summe so farre as my dull head could conceiue and carry it of his Maiesties generall speech In particular he signified vnto them the principall matters why hee called them alone with vvhome hee vvould consult about some speciall pointes wherein himselfe desired to bee satisfied these hee reduced to three heades First concerning the Booke of Common Prayer and Diuine Seruice vsed in this Church Second Excommunication in the Ecclesiasticall Courtes Third the Prouiding of fit and able Minister s for Ireland In the booke he required satisfaction about three thinges First about Confirmation first for the name if arguing a confirming of Baptisme as if this Sacrament without it were of no validity then were it blasphemous Secondly for the vse first brought vpon this occasion Infants being baptized and aunswering by their Patrini it was necessarie they should bee examined when they came to yeares of discretion and after their profession made by themselues to be confirmed with a blessing or prayer of the Bishop laying his handes vpon their heades abhorring the abuse in Popery where it was made a sacrament and a corroboration to Baptisme The second was for Absolution vvhich how we vsed it in our Church hee knewe not hee had heard it likened to the Popes pardons but his Maiesties opinion was that there being onely two kindes thereof from God the one generall the other particular for the first all prayers and preaching do import an Absolution for the second it is to bee applied to speciall parties who hauing committed a scandall and repenting are absolued otherwise where there precedes not either excommunication or pennance there needs no absolution The third was Priuate Baptisme if priuate for place his Maiestie thought it agreed with the vse of the primitiue church if for persons that any but a Lawfull Minister might baptize any where he vtterly disliked and in this point his Highnesse grew somewhat earnest against the baptizing by women and Laikes The second head was Excommunication wherein hee offered two thinges to bee considered of first the matter second the person In the matter first whether it were executed as it is complained in light causes second whether it were not vsed too often In the Persons first why Lay men as Chancelors Commissaries should do it second why the Bishops themselues for the more dignitie to so high and waightie a censure should not take vpon them for their assistantes the Deane and Chapter or other ministers and Chaplaines of grauitie and account and so likewise in other Censures and giuing of orders c. The last for Ireland his Maiestie referred as you shall in the last daies conference heare to a consulation His Highnesse to whome I offer great wrong in beeing as Phocion to Demosthenes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the hatchet to cut short so admirable a speech hauing ended the Lord Archbishop after that on his knee he had signified hovve much this Whole land was bound to God for setting ouer vs a King so wise learned and iudicious addressed himselfe to enforme his Maiestie of all these pointes in their seuerall order And first as touching Confirmation hee shewed at large the antiquitie of it as being vsed in the Catholike Church euer since the Apostles time till that of late some particular Churches had vnaduisedly reiected it Then hee declared the lawfull vse of it agreeable to his Maiesties former speech affirming it to bee a meere calumniation and a very vntrue suggestion if any had informed his Highnesse that the Church of England did holde or teach that without Confirmation Baptisme was vnperfect or that it did adde any thing to the vertue and strength thereof And this hee made manifest by the Rubrikes in the Communion booke set before Confirmation which were there read My Lord of London succeeded saying that the authoritie of Confirmation did not depend onely vpon the Antiquitie and practise of the Primitiue Church which out of Cyprian Ep. 73. and Hierom. aduersus Luciferian hee
shewed but that it was an Institution Apostolicall and one of the particular pointes of the Apostles Catechisme set downe and named in expresse wordes Hebr. 6. 2. and so did M. Caluin expound that very place who wished earnestly the restitution thereof in those reformed Churches where it had beene abolished Vpon which place the Bishop of Carlell also insisted and vrged it both grauely and learnedly His Maiestie called for the Bible read the place of the Hebrewes and approued the exposition Something also the Bishop of Durham noted out of the Gospell of S. Mathew for the imposition of handes vppon children The conclusion was for the fuller explanation that wee make it not a Sacrament or a corroboration to a former Sacrament that it should bee considered of by their Lordshippes whether it might not without alteration whereof his Maiestie was still very wary bee intituled an Examination with a Confirmation Next in order was the point of Absolution which the Lord Archbishop cleared from all abuse or superstition as it is vsed in our Church of England reading vnto his Maiestie both the Confession in the beginning of the Communion book and the Absolution following it wherein saith he the Minister doth nothing else but pronounce an Absolution in generall His Highnesse perused them both in the booke it selfe liking and approuing them finding it to be very true which my Lord Archbishop said but the Bishop of London stepping forward added it becōmeth vs to deale plainely with your Maiestie there is also in the Communion booke another more particular and personall forme of Absolution prescribed to be vsed in the order for the Visitation of the sicke this the King required to see and whilest Maister Deane of the Chappell was turning to it the sayd Bishop aledged that not onely the confessions of Augustia Boheme Saxon which he there cited doe retaine and allow it but that Maister Caluin did also approue such a generall kinde of Confession and Absolution as the Church of England vseth and withall did very well like of those which are priuate for so hee termes them The sayd particular Absolution in the Common prayer booke beeing read his Maiestie exceedingly well approued it adding that it was Apostolicall and a very godly ordinance in that it was giuen in the name of Christ to one that desired it and vpon the clearing of his conscience The conclusion was that it should be consulted of by the Bishops whether vnto the Rubrike of the generall Absolution these wordes Remission of sinnes might not be added for explanation sake In the third place the Lord Archbishop proceeded to speake of Priuate Baptisme shewing his Maiestie that the administration of Baptisme by women and Lay-persons was not allowed in the practise of the Church but enquired of by Bishoppes in their Visitations and censured neither doe the wordes in the booke inferre any such meaning whereunto the King excepted vrging and pressing the wordes of the Booke that they could not but intend a permission and suffering of women and priuate persons to baptize Here the Bishoppe of Worcester said that indeed the wordes were doubtfull and might bee pressed to that meaning but yet it seemed by the contrarie practise of our Church censuring women in this case that the compilers of the Booke did not so intend them and yet propounded them ambiguously because otherwise perhaps the Booke would not haue then passed in the Parliament and for this coniecture as I remember he cited the testimony of my Lord Archbishoppe of Yorke whereunto the Bishop of London replyed that those learned and reuerend men who framed the Booke of Common Prayer entended not by ambiguous termes to deceiue any but did indeede by those wordes entend a permission of priuate persons to baptize in case of necessitie whereof their letters were witnesses some partes whereof hee then read and withall declared that the same was agreeable to the practise of the auncient Church vrging to that purpose both Actes 2. where 3000. were baptized in one day which for the Apostles alone to doe was impossible at least improbable and besides the Apostles there were then no Bishoppes or Priestes And also thee authoritie of Tertullian and Saint Ambrose in the fourth to the Ephesians plaine in that point laying also open the absurdities and impieties of their opinion who thinke there is no necessitie of Baptisme which word Necessitie he so pressed not as if God without Baptisme could not saue the child but the case put that the state of the Infant dying vnbaptized being vncertaine and to God only known but if it dye baptized there is an euident assurance that it is saued who is hee that hauing any Religion in him would not speedily by any meanes procure his Child to be baptized and rather ground his action vpon Christs promise then his omission thereof vppon Gods secret iudgement His Maiestie replied first to that place of the Actes that it was an Acte extraordinary neither is it sound reasoning from thinges done before a Church bee setled and grounded vnto those which are to be performed in a Church stablished and flourishing That hee also maintained the necessitie of Baptisme and alwayes thought that the place of Saint Iohn Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua c. was ment of the Sacrament of Baptisme and that hee had so defenced it against some Ministers in Scotland and it may seeme strange to you my Lords saith his Maiestie that I who now think you in England giue too much to Baptism did 14. moneths ago in Scotland argue with my Diuines there for ascribing too litle to that holy Sacrament In somuch that a pert Minister asked me if I thought Baptism so necessary that if it were omitted the child should be damned I answered him no but if you being called to baptize the child though priuately should refuse to come I think you shall be damned But this necessitie of Baptisme his Maiestie so expounded that it was necessarie to be had where it might be lawfully had id est ministred by lawfull Ministers by whom alone by no priuate person hee thought it might not in any case be administred and yet vtterly disliked all rebaptization although either women or Laikes had baptized Heere the Bishop of VVinchester spake very learnedly and earnestly in that point affirming that the denying of priuate persons in cases of necessitie to baptize were to crosse all antiquitie seeing that it had bene the ancient and common practize of the Church When Ministers at such times could not be got and that it was also a rule agreed vpon among Diuines that the Minister is not of the Essence of the Sacrament His Maiestie answered though hee be not of the Essence of the Sacrament yet is he of the Essence of the right and lawfull ministrie of the Sacrament taking for his ground the commission of Christ to his Disciples Mat. 28. 20. Go preach and baptize The issue was a consultation whether into the
whosoeuer though before iustified did commit any grieuous sin as adultery murther treason or the like did become ipso facto subiect to Gods wrath and guilty of damnation or were in state of damnation quoad praesentem statum vntill they did repent adding hereunto that those which were called and iustified according to the purpose of Gods election hovvsoeuer they might and did sometime fall into grieuous sins and thereby into the present state of wrath and damnation yet did neuer fall either totally from all the graces of God to be vtterly destitute of all the partes and seede thereof nor finally from iustification but were in time renued by Gods spirit vnto a liuely faith and repentance and so iustified from those sinnes and the wrath curse and guilt annexed thereunto whereinto they were fallen and wherein they lay so long as they were without true repentance for the same Against which doctrine hee saide that some had opposed teaching that all such persons as were once truely instified though after they fel into neuer so grieuous sinnes yet remained still iust or in the state of iustification before they actually repented of those sinnes yea and though they neuer repented of them through forgetfulnesse or sudden death yet they should bee iustified and saued without repentance In vtter dislike of this Doctrine his Maiestie entred into a longer speech of predestination and reprobation then before and of the necessary conioyning repentance and holinesse of life with true faith concluding that it was hypocrisie and not true iustifying fayth which was seuered from them for although predestination and election dependeth not vpon any qualities actiōs or works of man which be mutable but vpon God his eternall and immutable decree and purpose yet such is the necessitie of repentance after knowne sinnes committed as that without it there could not be either reconciliation with God or remission of those sinnes Next to this Doctor Reynalds complained that the Catechisme in the Common prayer booke was too briefe for which one by Maister Nowell late Deane of Paules was added and that too long for young nouices to learne by heart requested therefore that one vniforme Catechisme might bee made which and none other might be generally receiued it was asked of him whether if to the short Catechisme in the Communion Booke something were added for the doctrine of the Sacraments it would not serue His Maiestie thought the Doctors request very reasonable but yet so that hee would haue a Catechisme in the fewest and plainest affirmatiue termes that may bee taxing withall the number of ignorant Catechismes set out in Scotland by euerie one that was the Sonne of a Good man insomuch as that which was Catechisme doctrine in one congregation was in another scarsely accepted as sound and Orthodox wished therefore one to bee made and agreed vppon adding this excellent gnomicall and Canon-like Conclusion that in the reforming of a Church he wold haue two rules obserued first that old curious deepe and intricate questions might be auoided in the fundamentall instruction of a people Secondly that there should not be any such departure from the Papistes in all thinges as that because we in some pointes agree with them therefore wee should bee accounted to bee in errour To the former D. Reynoldes added the prophanation of the Sabboth day and contempt of his Maiesties Proclamation made for the reforming of that abuse of which hee earnestly desired a straighter course for reformation thereof and to this he found a general and vnanimous assent After that he moued his Maiestie that there might bee a newe translation of the Bible because those which were allowed in the raignes of Henrie the eight and Edward the sixt were corrupt and not aunswerable to the truth of the Originall For example first Galathians 4. 25. the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not well translated as nowe it is Bordreth neither expressing the force of the worde nor the Apostles sense nor the situation of the place Secondly Psalme 105. 28. they were not obedient The Originall beeing They were not disobedient Thirdly Psalme 106. verse 30. Then stood vp Phinees and prayed the Hebrew hath Executed iudgement To which motion there was at the present no gainsaying the obiections beeing triuiall and old and alreadie in print often aunswered onely my Lord of London well added that if euery mans humour should be followed there would be no ende of translating VVhereupon his Highnesse wished that some especiall paines should be taken in that behalfe for one vniforme translation professing that hee could neuer yet see a Bible well translated in English but the worst of all his Maiestie thought the Geneua to bee and this to bee done by the best learned in both the Vniuersities after them to bee reuiewed by the Bishops and the chiefe learned of the Church from them to bee presented to the Priuie-Councell and lastly to bee ratified by his Royall authoritie and so this whole Church to be bound vnto it and none other Marry withall hee gaue this caueat vpon a word cast out by my Lord of London that no marginall notes should be added hauing found in them which are annexed to the Geneua translation which he sawe in a Bible giuen him by an English Lady some notes very partiall vntrue seditious and sauouring too much of daungerous and trayterous conceites As for example Exod. 1. 19. where the marginall note alloweth disobedience to Kings And 2. Chron. 15. 16. the note taxeth Asa for deposing his mother onely and not killing her And so concludeth this point as all the rest with a graue and iudicious aduise First that errours in matters of faith might bee rectified and amended Secondly that matters indifferent might rather be interrupted and a glosse added alleaging from Burtolus de regno that as better a King with some weakenesse then still a chaunge so rather a Church with some faultes then an Innouation And sure ly sayth his Maiestie if these bee the greatest matters you be grieued with I neede not haue beene troubled with such importunities and complaintes as haue beene made vnto me some other more priuate course might haue bene taken for your satisfaction and withall looking vppon the Lords he shooke his head smiling The last point noted by D. Reyn. in this first head for doctrine was that vnlawfull and seditious bookes might bee suppressed at least restrained and imparted to a few for by the libertie of publishing such bookes so commonly many young Schollers and vnsetled mindes in both Vniuersities and through the whole Realme were corrupted and peruerted naming for one instance that Booke intituled De iure Magistratus in Subditos published of late by Ficlerus a Papist and applied against the Queenes Maiestie that last was for the Pope The Bishop of London supposing as it seemed himselfe to bee principally aymed at aunswered first to the generall that there vvas no such licentious divulging of those bookes as he imagined or
THE SVMME AND SVBSTANCE OF THE CONference which it pleased his Excellent Maiestie to haue with the Lords Bishops and other of his Clergie at vvhich the most of the Lordes of the Councell were present in his Maiesties Priuy-Chamber at Hampton Court Ianuary 14. 1603. Contracted by VVILLIAM BARLOVV Doctor of Diuinity and Deane of Chester Whereunto are added some Copies scattered abroad vnsauory and vntrue LONDON Printed by Iohn Windet for Mathew Law and are to be sold at his shop in Paules Churchyeard neare S. Austens Gate 1604 To the Reader THis Copy of the Conferēce in Ianuary last hath beene long expected and long since it was finished impeachments of the diuulging were many too main aboue the rest one his vntimely death who first imposed it vpon me with whome is buried the famousest glory of our English Church and the most kind incouragement to paines and study A man happie in his life death loued of the best while he liued hearde of God for his decease most earnestly desiring not many dayes before hee was stroken that he might not yet liue to see this Parliament as neare as it vvas The other an expectation of this late Comitiall Conference much threatned before and triumphed in by many as if that Regall and most honourable preceding shoulde thereby haue receiued his Counter-blast for being too forward But his Maiesties Constancy hauing by the last added comfort and strength to this former which now at length comes abroad therein good Reader thou mayest both see those huge pretended Scandales for which our flourishing Church hath beene so long disturbed obiected and remoued withall behold the expresse and viue image of a most learned and iudicious King whose manifolde giftes of Grace and Nature my skant measure of gift is not able to delineate nor am I willing to enumerate because I haue euer accounted the personall commendations of Liuing Princes in men of our sort a Verball Symony Such Flies there are too many which puffe the skinne but taint the flesh His Maiesties humble deportment in those sublimities will be the eternizing of his memory the rather because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to digest so great Felicity without surfet of surquedry is a vertue rare in great personages that which the K. of Heauē feared euen the King of his own choice would want The more eminent he is in all princely qualities the happier shall we be our duty as we are Christians is Prayer for him as wee are Subiectes Obedience to him as we are men acknowledgement of our setled state in him Our vnthankfulnes may remoue him as it did the mirrour of Princes our late famous Elizabeth Shee rests with God the Phaenix of her ashes raignes ouer vs and long may he so doe to Gods glory and the Churches good which his excellent knowledge be wtifieth and good gouernement adioyned will beatifie it An hope of this last we conceiue by his written 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Specimen of the other in this Interlocutory Conference whereof take this which is printed but as an Extract wherein is the Substance of the whole intercourse of speeches there occasioned would cause prolixity without profit what euery man said point deuise I neither could nor cared to obserue the vigour of euery obiection with the summe of each answer I gesse I misse not For the first day I had no helpe beyond mine owne yet some of good place and vnderstanding haue seene it and not controled it except for the breuity for the two last out of diuers copies I haue selected and ordered what you here see in them all next vnto God the Kinges Maiestie alone must haue the glory Yet to say that the present state of our Church is very much obliged to the Reuerend Fathers my Lordes of London and Winton their paines dexterity in this busines were neither detraction from other nor flattery of them His Highnes purposed to compose all quarrels of this kind hereby and supposing he had setled all matters of the Church it pleased him so to signifie by Proclamation after it was done but there is a triple generation in the worlde of whome the wiseman speaketh marry I say nothing for euen priuate speeches cannot now passe without the smeare of a Blacke Cole In one ranke whereof you may place our Hercules Limbo mastix whome it might haue pleased without his Gnathonical appeale to haue rested his Maiesties determinatiō being a Synopticall Theolog 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and angry that he was not so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 haue learned the difference Diuinitie betweene Viam Regis viam gregis Many copies of diuerse sorts haue been scattered and sent abroad some partiall some vntrue some slanderous what is here set downe for the truth thereof shall be iustified the onelie wrong therein is to his excellent Maiestie a syllable of whose admirable speeches it was pitty to loose his wordes as they were vttered by him being as Salomon speaketh Like Apples of gold vvith pictures of siluer and therefore I request thee good Reader when thou commest to any of his Highnes speeches to turne Martial his Apostrophe vpon me Tu malé iam recitas incipit esse tuus and I will take it kindly If thou bee honest and courteous thou wilt rest satisfied and that is my content to lay a pillow for a dog sortes neither with my leysure nor purpose Farevvell Thine in Christ Iesu W. Barlow THE FIRST DAYES Conference THe day appointed was as by his Maiesties Proclamation we all know Thursday the 12. of Ianuary on which there met at Hampton Court by 9. of the Clocke all the Bishops and Deanes summoned by letters namely the Archbishop of Canterbury the Bishops of London Durham Winchester Worcester S. Dauids Chichester Carlell and Peterborow the Deanes of the Chappell Christ-Church Worcester Westminster Paules Chester Windsor with Doctor Field and Doctor King Archdeacon of Nottingham who though the night before they heard a rumor that it was deferred till the 14. day yet according to the first summons thought it their dutie to offer themselues to the Kinges presence which they did at which time it pleased his Highnes to signifie vnto the Bishops that the day hauing preuented or deceiued him he would haue them returne on Saturday next following On vvhich day all the Deanes and Doctors attending my Lordes the Bishops into the Presence-Chamber there wee found fitting vpon a forme D. Reynoldes D. Sparkes M. Knewstubs and M. Chaderton Agentes for the Millene Plaintiffes The Bishoppes entring the Priuy-Chamber stayed there till commaundement came from his Maiestie that none of any sort should bee present but onely the Lordes of the Priuie-Councell and the Bishoppes vvith fiue Deanes viz. of the Chappell Westminster Powles Westchester Salisburie who beeing called in the doore was close shut by my Lord Chamberlaine After a while his excellent Maiestie came in and hauing passed a fewe pleasant gratulatiōs with some of
to the Statute I. Elizab. to speake so freely against the Leiturgie Discipline established Lastly forasmuch as that hee perceiued they tooke a course tending to the vtter ouerthrowe of the orders of the Church thus long continued hee desired to knowe the ende which they aimed at alledging a place out of M. Cartwright affirming that we ought rather to conforme our selues in orders and Ceremonies to the fashion of the Turkes then to the Papists which Position hee doubted they approued because contrary to the orders of the Vniuersities they appeared before his Maiestie in Turky gownes not in their Scholasticall habites sorting to their degrees His Maiestie obseruing my Lord of London to speake in some passion saide that there was in it something which hee might excuse something that hee did mislike excuse his passion hee might thinking he had iust cause to bee so moued both in respect that they did thus traduce the present well setled Church gouernement and also did proceede in so indirect a course contrary to their owne pretence and the intent of that meeting also yet hee misliked his sudden interruption of D. Reyn. whome he should haue suffered to haue taken his course and libertie concluding that there is no order nor can be any effectuall issue of disputation if each partie might not bee suffered without chopping to speake at large what hee would And therefore willed that either the Doctors should proceed or that the Bishoppe would frame his aunswere to these motions alreadie made although saith his Maiestie some of them are verie needlesse It was thought fitter to aunswere least the number of obiections encreasing the aunsweres would proue confused Vpon the first motion Concerning falling from Grace The Bishop of London tooke occasion to signifie to his Maiestie how very many in these dayes neglecting holinesse of life presumed too much of persisting in Grace laying all their Religion vpon Predestination If I shall bee saued I shall be saued which hee termed a desperate doctrine shewing it to bee contrarie to good Diuinitie and the true doctrine of Predestination whereein we should reason rather ascendendo then descendendo thus I liue in obedience to God in loue with my neighbour I follow my vocation c therefore I trust that God hath elected me predestinated mee to Saluation not thus which is the vsuall course of argument God hath Predestinated and chosen mee to life therefore though I sin neuer so grieuously yet I shall not be damned for whome he once loueth he loueth to the ende VVhereupon hee shewed his Maiestie out of the next article what was the doctrine of the Church of England touching Predestination in the verie last Paragraph scilicet We must receiue Gods promises in such wise as they be generally set forth to vs in holy scripture and in our doings that will of God is to be followed which wee haue expressely declared vnto vs in the word of God which parte of the said Article his Maiestie verie well approued and after hee had after his maner very singularly discoursed vpon that place of Paul worke out your saluation with feare and trembling he left it to bee considered whether any thing were meete to bee added for the clearing of the Doctor his doubt by putting in the worde often or the like as thus We may often depart from Grace but in the meane time wished that the doctrine of Predestination might bee verie tenderly handled and with great discretion least on the one side Gods omnipotency might be called in question by impeaching the doctrine of his eternall predestination or on the other a desperate presumption might be arreared by inferring the necessary certaintie of standing and persisting in grace To the second it was aunswered that it was a vaine obiection because by the doctrine and practise of the Church of England none but a licensed minister might preach nor either publikely or priuately administer the Eucharist or the Lords Supper And as for priuate Baptisme his Maiestie answered that hee had taken order for that with the Bishops already In the third point which was about Confirmation was obserued either a curiosity or malice because the Article which was there presently read in those wordes These fiue commonly called Sacraments that is to say Confirmation Pennance Orders c. are not to be accounted for Sacraments of the Gospell being such as haue growne partly of the corrupt following the Apostles c. insinuateth that the making of Confirmation to be a Sacrament is a corrupt imitation but the Communion Booke aiming at the right vse and proper sourse thereof makes it to bee according to the Apostles example which his Maiestie obseruing and reading both the places concluded the obiection to be a meere Cauil And this was for the pretended contradiction Now for the ground thereof the Bishoppe of London added that it was not so much founded vpon the places in the Acts of the Apostles which some of the Fathers had often shewed but vpon Heb 6. 2. where it is made as the first day hee had saide a parte of the Apostles Catechisme which was the opinion besides the iudgement of the holy Fathers of M. Caluin and D. Fulke the one vpon Heb. 6. 2. as vpon Saturday he had declared the other vpon Act. 8. verse 27. where with saint Augustine he saith that we do not in any wise mislike that auncient Ceremonie of imposition of hands for strengthening and confirming such as had beene baptized but vse it our selues beeing nothing else but as S. Austen affirmeth Prayer ouer a man to bee strengthened and confirmed by the holy Ghost or to receiue increase of the giftes of the holy Ghost as S. Ambrose saith and a little after alludeth vnto Heb. 6. 2. c. Neither neede there any great proofe of this saith my Lord. For Confirmation to be vnlawfull it was not their opinion vvho obiected this as hee supposed this was it that vexed them that they had not the vse thereof in their owne handes euery Pastor in his Parish to confirme for then it would bee accounted an Apostolicall institution and willed D. Reyn. to speake herein what he thought who seemed to yeeld thereunto replying that some Diocesse of a Bishoppe hauing therein 600. parish Churches which number caused the Bishop of London to thinke himselfe personally touched because in his Diocesse there are 609. or thereabouts it was a thing verie inconuenient to commit Confirmation vnto the Bishop alone supposing it impossible that he could take due examination of them all which came to be confirmed To the fact my Lord of London aunswered for his Maiesties information that the Bishops in their Visitations giue out notice to them who are desirous either to be themselues or to haue their children confirmed of the place where they will bee and appoint either their Chapleines or some other Ministers to examine them which are to bee cōfirmed and lightly confirme none but either by the testimonie or report of the
sayeth his Maiestie was best but where it might not bee had godly prayers and exhortations did much good That that may be done let it and let the rest that cannot bee tollerated Somewhat was here spoken by the Lord Chancelor of liuinges rather wanting learned men then learned men liuinges Many in the Vniuersities pining Maisters Batchelors and vpwardes wishing therefore that some might haue single coates before other had dublets here his L. shewed the course that hee had euer taken in bestowing the Kinges Benefices My Lord of London commending his Honourable care that way withall excepted that a dublet was necessary in cold weather the L. Chancelor replied that he did it not for dislike of the libertie of our Church in granting one man 2. benefices but out of his owne priuate purpose and practise groūded vpō the foresaid reason The last motion by my L. of London was that Pulpits might not be made Pasquilles wherein euery humorous or discontented fellow might traduce his superiours Which the King very gratiously accepted exceedingly reprouing that as a lewde custome threatning that if hee should but heare of such a one in a Pulpit hee would make him an example concluding with a sage admonition to the Opponents that euery man shoulde solicite and drawe his friendes to make peace and if anything were amisse in the Church officers not to make the Pulpit the place of personall reproofe but to let his Maiestie heare of it yet by degrees First let Complaint be to the Ordinarie of the place from him to goe to the Archbishoppe from him to the Lordes of his Maiesties Councell and from them if in all these places no remedie is founde to his owne selfe Which Caueat his Maiestie put in for that the Bishop of London had tolde him that if hee left himselfe open to admit of all complaints neither his Maiestie should euer bee quiet nor his vnder Officers regarded seeing that now alreadie no fault can bee censured but presently the Delinquent threatneth a complaint to the King and for an instance he added how a Printer whome hee had taken faulty very lately answered him in that very kinde D. Reyn. commeth now to Subscription which concerneth the fourth generall heade as hee first propounded it namely The Communion booke taking occasion to leape into it here as making the vrging of it to be a great impeachment to a learned Ministery therefore intreated it might not be exacted as heretofore for which many good men were kept out other remoued many disquieted To subscribe according to the statutes of the Realme namely to the Articles of Religion and the Kinges Supremacy they were not vnwilling The reason of their backwardnesse to subscribe otherwise was first the bookes Apocryphall which the Common Praier booke enioyned to bee reade in the Church albeit there are in some of those Chapters appointed manifest errors directly repugnāt to the scriptures the particular instance which hee then inferred was Eccles. 48. 10. where hee charged the author of that booke to haue held the same opinion with the Iewes at this day namely that Elias in person was to come before Christ and therefore as yet Christ by that reason not come in the flesh and so consequently it implyed a denial of the chief Article of our redemption his reason of thus charging the Authour was because that Ecclus. vsed the very wordes of Elias in person which the Prophet Malachy Chap. 4. doth apply to an Elias in resemblance which both an angell Luke 1. 17. and our Sauiour Christ Math. 11. did interprete to be Iohn Baptist. The answere was as the obiection twofold First generall for Apocrypha bookes The Bishop of London shewing first for the antiquitie of them that the most of the obiections made against those bookes were the old Cauils of the Iewes renewed by S. Hierome in his time who was the first that gaue them the name of Apocrypha which opinion vpon Ruffinus his chalenge hee after a sort disclaimed the rather because a generall offence was taken at his speeches in that kinde First for the continuāce of them in the Church out of Kimidoncius and Chemnitius two moderne writers The Bishoppe of Winton remembred the distinction of Saint Ierome Canonici sunt ad informandos mores non ad confirmandam fidem which distinction hee saide must be held for the iustifying of sundry Councels His Maiestie in the ende saide hee would take an euen order betweene both affirming that hee woulde not wish all Canonicall bookes to be read in the Church vnlesse there were one to interprete nor any Apocrypha at all wherein there was any error but for the other which were cleare correspondent to the scriptures he would haue them read for else sayeth his Maiestie why were they printed and therein shewed the vse of the Bookes of Machabees very good to make vp the story of the persecution of the Iewes but not to teach a man either to sacrifice for the dead or to kill himselfe And here his Highnesse arose from his chaire withdrew himself into his inner chamber a little space in the meane time a great questioning was amōgst the Lords about that place of Eccles. with which as if it had beene their rest and vpshot they beganne afresh at his Maiesties returne Who seeing them so to vrge it and stand vpon it calling for a Bible first shewed the author of that booke who hee was then the cause why hee wrote that booke next analyzed the Chapter it selfe shewing the precedentes and consequentes thereof lastly so exactly and diuinelike vnfolded the summe of that place arguing and demonstrating that whatsoeuer Ben Sirach had saide there of Elias Elias had in his owne person while hee liued performed and accomplished so that the Susurrus at the first mention was not so great as the astonishment was now at the King his so sodaine and sound and indeede so admirable an interpretation concluding first with a serious checke to Doctor Reynaldes that it was not good to impose vpon a man that was dead a sense neuer meant by him secondly with a pleasant Apostrophe to the Lordes What trowe yee makes these men so angry with Ecclesiasticus by my soule I thinke hee was a Bishoppe or else they would neuer vse him so But for the generall it was appointed by his Maiestie that Doctor Reyn. should note those chapters in the Apocrypha bookes where those offensiue places were and should bring them vnto the Lord Archshop of Canterburie against VVednesday next and so he was willed to goe on The next scruple against Subscription was that olde Crambe bis posita that in the Common Prayer booke it is twise set downe Iesus saide to his Disciples when as by the text originall it is plaine that he spake to the Pharisies To which it was aunswered that for ought that coulde appeare by the places hee might speake aswell to his Disciples they beeing present as to the Pharisees But his
Maiestie keeping an euen hand willed that the worde Disciples shoulde bee omitted and the wordes Iesus said to bee Printed in a different letter that it might appeare not to be a part of the text The third obiection against Subscripti on were Interogatories in baptisme propounded to Infantes which being a profound point was put vpon M. Knewstubs to pursue who in a long and perplexed speech saide something out of S. Austen that baptizare was credere but what it was his Maiestie plainely confessed Ego non intelligo and asked the Lords what they thought hee meant it seemed that one present conceiued him for hee standing at his backe bid him vrge that punct vrge that punct that is a good point my Lord of VVinton aiming at his meaning shewed him the vse thereof out of S. Austen and added the Fathers reason for it Qui peccauit in altero credat in altero which was seconded by his Maiestie whome it pleased for the rest of the matters which followed him selfe alone to answere and iustly might hee appropriate it to himselfe for none present were able with quicker conceit to vnderstand with a more singular dexteritie to refute with a more iudicious resolution to determine then his Maiestie herein being more admirable that these points wherein some thought him preiudiciall to the contrarie all of vs supposed him to haue beene but a stranger to them he could so intelligently apprehend and so readily argue about them it was I say seconded by his Maiesty by reason that the question should bee propounded to the party whome it principally concerned secondly by example of himselfe to whom interrogatories were propounded when he was crowned in his infancie king of Scotland And here his Maiestie as hereafter at the end of euery obiection hee did asked them whether they had any more to say M. Knewstubs tooke exceptions to the Crosse in Baptisme which were in number two First the offence of Weake brethren grounded vpon the words of Saint Paule Rom. 14. and 1. Cor. 8. viz the Consciences of the weake not to bee offended which places his excellent Maiestie aunswered most acutely beginning with that generall rule of the Fathers Distingue tempora concordabunt Scripturae shewing heere the difference of those times and ours then a Church not fully planted nor settled but ours long stablished and flourishing then Christians newely called from Paganisme and not throughly grounded which is not the case of this Church seeing that Heathenish doctrine for manie yeares hath beene hence abandoned Secondly with a question vnanswerable asking them how long they woulde bee weake whether 45. yeares were not sufficient for them to growe strong 3. Who they were that pretended this weaknesse for wee saith the King require not now Subscription of Laikes Idiots but Preachers and Ministers who are not still I trow to be fed with milke but are enabled to feede others 4. That is was to bee doubted some of them were strong enough if not headstrong and howsoeuer they in this case pretended weakenesse yet some in whose behalfe they nowe spake thought themselues able to teach him and all the Bishops of the land His obiection against the Crosse consisted of three Interrogatories 1. Whether the Church had power to institute an externall significant signe to which was replyed first that hee did mistake the vse of the Crosse with vs which was not vsed in Baptisme any otherwise then onely as a ceremonie Secondly by their owne example who make imposition of handes in their ordination of Pastors to be a signe significant Thirdly in prayer saieth the Bishoppe of Winton the kneeling on the grounde the lifting vp of our handes the knocking of our breastes are Ceremonics significant the first of our humilitie comming before the mightie God the second of our confidence and hope the other of our sorrow detestation of our sins and these are and may lawfully bee vsed Lastly M. Deane of the Chappell remembred the practise of the Iewes who vnto the institution of the Passeouer prescribed vnto them by Moses had as the Rabbines witnesse added both signes and words eating sowre hearbs and drinking wine with these words to both Take and eate these in remembrance c. Drinke this in remembrance c. Vpon which addition and tradition of theirs our Sauiour instituted the Sacrament of his last Supper in celebrating it with the same wordes and after the same manner thereby approuing that fact of theirs in particular and generally that a Church may institute and retaine a signe significant which satisfied his Maiestie exceeding well And here the king desired to haue himselfe made acquainted about the antiquitie of the vse of the Crosse. Which Doctor Reynaldes confessed to haue beene euer since the Apostles times but this was the difficulty to proue it of that auncient vse in Baptisme For that at their going abroad or entering into the Church or at their Prayers and benedictions it was vsed by the Auncients desired no greate proofe but whether in Baptisme Antiquitie approued it was the doubt cast in by M. Deane of Sarum whome his Maiestie singled out with a speciall Encomion that hee was a man well trauelled in the Auncients which doubt was answered obsignatis tabulis by the Deane of Westminster whome the Kings Maiestie vpon my Lord of London his motion willed to speake to that poynt out of Tertullian Cyprian Origen and others that it was vsed in Immortali lauacro which wordes being a little descanted it fell from one I thinke it was my Lord of VVinchester obiter to say that in Constantine his time it was vsed in Baptisme What quoth the King and is it now come to that passe that wee shall appeach Constantine of Popery and superstition if then it were vsed saith his Maiesty I see no reason but that still wee may continue it M. Knewstubs his second question was that put case the Church had such power to adde significant signes whether it might there adde them where Christ had already ordayned one which hee saide was no lesse derogatorie to Christes institution as he thought then if any Potentate of this land should presume to adde his seale vnto the great seale of England To which his Maiesty answered that the case was not alike for that no signe or thing was added to the Sacrament which was fully and perfectly finished before any mention of the Crosse is made for confirmation whereof hee willed the place to be read Lastly if the Church had that power also yet the greatest scruple to their Conscience was how farre such an ordinance of the Church was to binde them without impeaching their Christian Libertie whereat the King as it seemed was much moued and tolde him hee would not argue that point with him but aunswere therein as Kinges are wont to speake in Parliament Le Roy J'auiserá adding withall that it smelled very rankly of Anabaptisme comparing it vnto the vsage of a beardlesse boy
one M. Iohn Black who the last Conference his Maiestie had with the Ministers in Scotland in December 1602. tolde him that hee woulde holde conformitie with his Maiesties ordinances for matters of doctrine but for matters of Ceremonie they were to bee left in Christian Libertie vnto euery man as hee receiued more and more light from the illumination of Gods spirit euen till they goe mad quoth the King with their owne light but I will none of that I will haue one Doctrine and one discipline one Religion in substance and in ceremonie and therefore I charge you neuer speake more to that point how farre you are bound to obey when the Church hath ordained it And so asked them again if they had anything else to say D. Reynaldes obiected the example of the Brasen Serpent demolished stampt to powder by Ezechias because the people abused it to Idolatry wishing that in like sort the Crosse should bee abandoned because in the time of Popery it had beene superstitiously abused Whereunto the Kings Maiesty answered diuerse waies First quoth hee though I bee sufficiently perswaded of the Crosse in Baptisme and the commendable vse thereof in the Church so long yet if there were nothing else to moue mee this verie argument were an inducement to mee for the retaining of it as it is now by order established For inasmuch as it was abused so you say to superstition in time of popery it doth plainely imply that is was well vsed before Popery I will tell you I haue liued among this sorte of men speaking to the Lords and Bishops euer since I was tenne yeares olde but I may say of my selfe as Christ did of himselfe Though I liued amongst them yet since I had abilitye to iudge I was neuer of them neither did any thing make mee more to condemne and detest their courses then that they did so peremptorily disallow of all thinges which at all had beene vsed in Popery For my part I knowe not how to answere the obiection of the Papistes when they charge vs with nouelties but truely to tel them that their abuses are newe but the thinges which they abused wee retaine in their primitiue vse and forsake onely the nouell corruption By this argument wee might renounce the Trinity and all that is holie because it was abused in Poperie and speaking to Doctor Reyn. merily they vsed to weare hose shooes in Popery therefore you shall now go barefoote Secondly quoth his Maiestie what resemblance is there betweene the Brasen Serpent a materiall visible thing and the signe of the Crosse made in the ayre Thirdly I am giuen to vnderstande by the Bishops and I finde it true that the Papistes themselues did neuer ascribe any power or spirituall grace to the Signe of the Crosse in baptisme Fourthly you see that the materiall Crosses which in time of Popery were made for men to fall downe before them as they passed by them to worship them as the Idolatrous Iewes did the Brasen Serpent are demolished as you desire The next thing which was obiected was the wearing of the Surplis a kinde of garment which the Priestes of Isis vsed to weare Surely saith his Maiestie till of late I did not thinke that it had bene borrowed from the Heathen because it is commonly termed aragge of Poperie in scorne but were it so yet neither did wee now border vpon Heathenish nations neither are any of them conuersant with vs or commorant among vs who thereby might take occasion to bee strengthened or confirmed in Paganisme for then there were iust cause to suppresse the wearing of it but seeing it appeared out of antiquitie that in the celebration of diuine seruice a different habite appertained to the ministerie and principally of white Linnen hee sawe no reason but that in this Church as it had beene for comelinesse and for order sake it might be still continued This being his constant resolute opinion that no Church ought further to separate it selfe from the Church of Rome either in Doctrine or Ceremony then shee had departed from her selfe when shee was in her florishing and best estate and from Christ her Lord head And heere againe he asked what more they had to say D. Reyn. tooke exceptions at those wordes in the Common Prayer Booke of Matrimonie VVith my bodie I thee worship His Maiestie looking vpon the place I was made beleeue saith hee that the Phrase did import no lesse then Diuine worship and adoration but by examination I finde that it is an vsuall English terme as a Gentleman of Worshippe c. and the sense agreeable to Scriptures giuing honour to the wife c. But turning to Doctor Reyn. with smiling saith his Maiestie Many a man speakes of Robin Hood who neuer shot in his bowe if you had a good wife your selfe you would thinke all the honour and Worshippe you could doe her were well bestowed The Deane of Sarum mentioned the Ring in marriage which Doctor Reyn approued and the King confessed that hee was married withall and added that hee thought they woulde proue to bee scarse well maried who are not maried with a Ring He likewise spake of the Churching of women by the name of Purification which being read out of the Booke his Maiestie very well allowed it and pleasantly saide that women were loath enough of themselues to come to Church and therefore he would haue this or any other occasion to drawe them thither And this was the substance and summe of that third generall point At which pause it growing toward night his Maiestie asked againe if they had any more to say if they had because it was late they should haue another day but Doctor Reyn. told him they had but one pointe more which was the last generall heade but it pleased his Maiestie first to aske what they could say to the Cornerd Cap they all approued it well then saith his Maiestie turning himselfe to the Bishops you may now safely weare your Caps but I shall tell you if you should walke in one streete in Scotland with such a Cap on your head if I were not with you you shoulde bee stoned to death with your Cap. In the fourth generall heade touching Discipline D. Reyn. first tooke exception to the committing of Ecclesiasticall censures vnto Lay-Chancelors his reason was that in the Statute made in King Henrie his time for their authoritie that way was abrogated in Queene Maries time and not reuiued in the late Queenes daies and abridged by Bishops themselues 1571. ordering that the said LayChācelors should not excommunicate in matters of correction and Anno 1584. and 1589 not in matters of Instance but to bee done only by them who had power of the Keyes His Maiestie answered that hee had already conferred with his Bishoppes about that point and that such order should be taken therein as was conuenient willing him in the meane time to goe to some other matter if hee had