q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
all did which you will neuer prooue as long as the Bible is extant If you reade Exodus in the two and thitieth chapter you shall finde that when Moyses had saide if any man be our Lords let him ioyne to me there gathered vnto him all the Sonnes of Leuie Exod. 32.26 And these were no small company as you may gather out of the booke of Numbers Num. 3. v. 39. Next you say Elias did complaine that he was left alone This makes a shewe and is repeted ouer and ouer in your books and your pulpittes The truth is that there were at the same tyme diuers in Israel where this Prophet was 3. Kings 19. v. 18. Rom. 11.4 which bowed not before Baal of which number God said to Elias he would reserue seauen thousand And at the same tyme allso in the kingdome of Iuda there was publique profession of the true religion at Ierusalem Wherefore you cannot prooue by this place that the Church failed and was not visible on the earth if wee would graunt you as you haue seene wee neede not that it was not visible in the kingdome of Israel at that tyme. Neither was it necessarie to the visibilitie of it that it should be still visible in both kingdomes one of thē onelie doth suffice for this purpose in case all in the other had forsaken God Let vs now come to the Catholique and Christian Church 86. In the second argument you taxe the Apostles 1. Rainold◠and first accuse S. Peeter of false doctrine because he was reprehended by S. Paul Then further you condemne the Apostles all of errour against faith in not beleeuīg the resurrection To that of S. Peeter which old Heretiques obiected it was answeared fourteene hundred yeers agoe that it was a fault of conuersation which he was taxed for not of doctrine The fault is set downe by S. Paul in these words Gal. 2.12 for before certaine came frō Iames he Peeter did eate with the Gentiles but when they were come he withdrewe and separated himselfe fearing them that were of the circumcision This cariage of S. Peeter S. Paul did repre-to Iudaize his making others by his example hend and was in this But here is no false doctrine maintained ād published by him much lesse by the Apostles all taught and generallie by the Church beleeued whereof wee speake now In the conuersatiō of the Popes which you taxe by this occasion there may haue bene faults allso for they were men but from them in generall Councells there hath come no false doctrine nor euer will 87. The second parr of your obiection hath no difficultie because wee knowe that the Apostles did learne the particulars of faith by degrees as you may obserue easilie in the Gospell ād their slownes to beleeue the point mentioned but not any errour maintained by them for Christian doctrine was reprehended Neither was the all-teaching Spirit as yet come our Sauiour not being ascended who therefore did instruct thē in the matter his owne selfe Now the thinge that wee defend is not that the Apostles beleeued all in particular from the first tyme they were called or that in conuersation nothing euer hapned amisse in any one of them but that after the comming of the holie Ghost the Catholique Church did neuer beleeue or teach errour in matter of faith which I would haue you to read ouer and ouer that you mistake not the matter but argue to the purpose 88. A third argument which I thought good to put in this place touches the resolution of our faith into the Church which resolution seemes not firme because it is made into authoritie not diuine To this I answeare that the authoritie of the Church alone if you consider it apart not adding thereunto the authoritie of the Assisting Spirit is greater then any other authoritie in the world that is distinct from the diuine authoritie And this by reason of an infinite multitude of learned and holy men which are in it of infinite miracles which doe giue testimonie of a greatnes which nature wonders at of the strange vnion of worlds of people in one obscure faith with a constancie which neither flattery nor feare can shake which vnion doth acknowledge no cause in nature since nature inclines not so constantlie to communion ād vniforme iudgment in things not found in nature as God incarnate the sonne in substance and power all one with his Father ād yet distinct in person and the like The authoritie I say of the Church by reason of these and such other motiues is the greatest of all authorities among men in so much that no other is any way equall to it and therfore none able to drawe a wise man from it 89. Yet this alone is not the thing wherevnto wee do make the last resolution of our faith But wee make it into the testimonie of allmightie God in the Church This testimonie doth originallie moue our faith The sunne is allwayes visible in it selfe but cannot be seene of vs vnles it be in the Orbe aboue our hemisphere and when it is risen the eleuation doth not principallie moue our eie but the sunne in that eleuation doth moue it to see both sunne and heauen and all other things which the light comes vppon So Gods eternall word of it selfe is euer apt to moue and to be seene though wee cannot discouer it with the eie of faith vnles it be exposed or proposed to vs in the firmament of the Church or some other way equiualent But if it be so applied our faith discerns the word and the Church proposing it and all other things that are reuealed Wherein the Church-proposition doth concurre instrumentallie with subordination to the Word of God and of them both in seuerall kinds our faith depends 90. Wee resolue therefore into authoritie truely diuine into the diuine Spirit teaching in the Church Or if you will haue a longer way which in effect is all one wee do resolue into the present Church assisted with the Spirit This present Church doth resolue into the Church in the former age assisted by the Spirit that againe into a former age ād so to the Apostles they resolue into Christ Where you finde the like as before that is the eternall and increated word mouing by way of humane speach and the Apostles faith depending though diuerslie on both at once that is on the eternall word as on the originall motiue and on the word of his mouth as on the Application 91. If you would haue yet another waie take the motiues of faith all together or the collection of them as applications and the prime veriry as formall obiect and you haue all that you iustlie can desire In the collectiō of motiues I doe include the whole Church these sixteene hundred yeares and the Apostles and Iesus Christ as he appeared and taught and all the miracles done in cōfirmation of the Christian Catholique faith the conuersion of the world from bad
to good which caÌ„ be from no bad cause the prophecies of the old and newe Testament and whatsoeuer els learned men vse to bringe to this purpose And taking in this collection all that which is distinct from the increated authoritie of allmightie God I call it the condition circumstance or application of the formall obiect which formall obiect is the diuine veritie reuealing Further I must not goe because the diuine veritie is infinite and therfore able to moue any vnderstanding and the circumstances are beyond all exceptioÌ„ to warrant the prudeÌ„ce of my choise I haue vsed some Schoole termes in this answeare but you must pardon me for it is a Schoole point as you knowe and fit for Schollers onelie 92. A fourth exception is that you seeke the will of God more sincerely and therefore enioy the assistance which wee doe not because wee relie onely on men This argument is allreadie answeared in effect wee depend on men proposing and as instrumentall or ministeriall causes vnder Iesus Christ the greate Pastor And sure the Apostles on whome the primitiue Church depended were men allso But principallie wee depend on Iesus Christ and the holie Ghost assisting in aÌ„d by the Church For your sincere seeking of the truth it is a friuolous pretense since you do not take the meanes by God ordained to finde it Iesus Christ hath left it in the Church and if you would finde it you should looke it there Your pretence of prayer and the guift of interpretation and conference of places are trickes onelie to delude fooles for all wise meÌ„ knowe that Christ hath bestowed all helpes necessary vppon the Church and that in the Church are the power of interpretation and sanctitie and generallie all the guifts of the holy Ghost Wherefore you are first to prooue that you are the Church before you challenge the Spirit and his guifts till then wee number you amoÌ„ge those who come in at the windowe to rob and steale the soules out of men and indeuour allso as much as lies in you to rob the Church of God of her endowments 93. For the sanctitie of our Church wherewith you would equall yours I remitte you to Baronius Martyrologe and desire to see the like catalogue from your holie number But who knowes not that it is proper to the Catholique Church to breede Saints and that thence are those which out of all Nations tribes and tongues are chosen to raigne with Iesê° Christ Yet are not all in this Church truelie Saincts there are degrees of incorpotion and vnion to the heade and members Some are vnited by faith and charitie some by faith and exterior communion but want Charitie and they haue some kinde of motioÌ„ and influence from Christ the heade for without him none can beleeue a right and they are part of the great mysticall body the Church Yet they want the principall vnion which vnion will be perfect and constant in heauen where the Church shall see the deitie of the sonne of God But here good and bad are mixt yet so that the Church militant shall neuer be without many good and holie men according to the Scripture This is the couenant which I will make with the house of Israel saith our Lord Ierem. 30. v. 33. speaking of the Christian Church I will giue my lawe in their bowells and in the hart of them will write it and will be to them a God and they shall be my people Ezech. 37. v 27. And in Ezechiel I will giue my sanctification in the middest of them for euer 94. If you aske me whether the Church may be said to sinne since there be sinners in the Church I answeare no. If any sinne it is not by meanes of the Church but contrarie to her direction and Spirit And if any erre it is not by her meanes but contrarie to her Spirit and proposition So that neither the sinne nor the errour of particular men can iustlie be attributed vnto the Church since they worke not in those cases by the common iudgment and direction of the Church but by their owne priuate apprehensions and affections contrary to the Churches will and rule As when one in a well-instituted common-wealth doth secretlie steale and murder it is his priuate action it is not the action of the common wealth but flatlie against the will and lawes of it This onely I will note in this matter that euery mortall sinne doth not destroy all incorporatioÌ„ and therefore a man may be in mortall sinne and yet in the Church for he which beleeueth doth participate some kinde of life though imperfect as I said before Neither is it necessarie that in each part all vitall powers be for a mans foote doth participate life but cannot see nor heare nor imagine as doth the heade 95. In the next place insteede of an argumeÌ„t I note your vanitie in heaping things together to winne the vulgar Your silken discourses vnles they be flowred with histories of Popes Friars and Monkes are not gaudie and therefore this embrodery must not be wanting I will not loose tyme to rehearse the particulars but in generall answeare thus First if amonge twelue Apostles pict out by our Sauiour Iesus Christ one was naught and proued an Apostata it can be no meruaile if amonge more then two hundred Popes elected by men some fewe did amisse Neither can their faults preiudice Papall authoritie aÌ„d the generall doctrine of the Church or redound vnto it more then did the Apostasie of Iudas preiudice Apostolicall power and christianitie or redound vnto the rest You should haue considered rather that many Bishops of the Roman See are knowne Saincts 96. I answeare secondlie for Friars that their rule is good holie and beyond all iust exception and therefore if any not conforming themselues to this rule by weaknes faile and liue amisse the profession is no more to be coÌ„demned for it then is Christianitie for the wicked conuersation of many that professe it And the stories of Friars which you haue are but fewe some dozen peraduenture were they a thousand the matter were not greate whereas in all the Catholique world are Friars And touching Monkes it is the same their Rule is holie and their conuersation such as crownes and scepters haue ben left for to learne it 33. milliaÌ„ AbbatiaruÌ„ 14. millia Prioratuum Genebr an 524. Ordinis Praedicatorum feruntur fuisse 4143. coenobia id an 1216. Franciscanorum suo tempore 90. millia fuisse scribit Sabellicus Ennead dec 9. l. 9. their institution hath bred many Saincts and their Order hath ben so genenerally spred that they haue had many thousand monasteries at a time Among so many to haue happened a few disorders is no wonder but to thinke that your stories put case they were in parte true which is not worth examination can preiudice the rule and institution is very childish 97. Of Catholiques in generall I haue spokeÌ„ all readie they were not all saincts
doctrine and her Spiritte 126. Awake man for shame awake and looke aboute consider what you doe here is a faire waie before you and you like a bedlome runne out of it ouer shoes ouer bootes ouer head and eares imagining notwithstanding that you walke aboue heauen and that euerie steppe is on a starre The Church the Councells the Fathers Apostles Euangelists all are in errour all vnder your feete whilst your chariot is rowld vniformelie aboue the Sunne and heauen takes newe lawes from your allmightie witte I will ascend into heauen Isay 14. v. 13.14 aboue the starres of God I will exalt my throne I will sit in the mount of the Testament in the sides of the North. I will ascend aboue the height of the clowdes I will be like the highest So he that wēt before you if you prick on apace you will ouertake him for he is yet at his Inne ād there to stay an eternall night That past you may iogge on together I loue your person I wish your saluatiō but hate your heresie and make no greate account of that which you most adore your learnīg In the Schoole of errour be manie good witts There the Manichees and Ariās ād Caluinists haue their order if there be any order where no man will be second Aristotles Logicke and Tullies Rhetoricke could not make of superstition true Religion I am not in loue with Hell though in it be greate Schollers the Foulest there was once the Fairest amōge creatures for endowments or nature and strength of vnderstanding I knowe that such as did applaud his cōceipt were partners in his fall I knowe too that all the knowledge of all Pagans of all Heretiques of all aduersaries put together doth not equall the knowledge of the Church It is the Schoole of Iesus Christ who taught a thing worthie of eternall admiration a poore fisherman and on the suddaine too to speake all tongues I speake it to the confusion of such aduersaries of our Sauiour as glory in their skill in others language and do repeate againe to the Rhetoricians he suddainlie made the same man so good an Oratour that he conuerted vnto his Masters doctrine in the face of his aduersaries Act. 2 three thousand with one Sermon he so instructed his disciples in deuinitie that they conuinced Greece the worlds Academie for wit and learning persuaded Rome in the flourishing tyme of her power though she imploied all her force to frustrate their proceeding and in fine to relate many wonders in a word conuerted all the world to beleeue a man God to beleeue a most obscure and witt-transcending Creede In this Schoole wee doe learne here wee are assured of the truth The manifestation of the Spirit is giuen here To one the word of wisdome 1. Cor. 12. v. 8.9.10 To another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit To another faith in the same Spirit To another the grace of doing cures in one Spirit To another the working of miracles To another prophecie To another discerning of Spiritts To another kinds of tongues To another interpretations of languages Can you giue these things can you teach this Schoole in this sort as the Spirit doth or if you cannot as without infinite blasphemie you may not presume you can why do you endeuour to thrust out the holie Ghost and intrude your selfe into the place whie do you thus oppose the diuine ordinance and openlie wronge the sonne of God Auant Heretiques Iude v. 2. clouds without water borne about with winde raging waues of the Sea foming out your owne confusions enemies to the Church to the Scripture and to God auant Wee need not your instruction wee haue better Masters Without you the Church was planted the world conuerted the truth maintained without you the Schooles are full of Schollers the world of Martyrs heauen of Saincts without you the Church hath stoode and doth stand and so will do still The third Conclusion All Controuersies in matters of Religion are to be decided by the Spirit in the Church THE FOVRTH BOOKE WHEREIN SOME PARTIticular Controuersies are briefly discussed THE FIRST CHAPTER Of the Primacie 1. YOVR generall arguments being dispatched in the former booke I shall finde little danger or difficultie in the encounter of the rest of the disordered route and may iustlie in your owne principles contemne them all as I said before in the like occasion and must repeate it oft For whence is their strength from witte or from authoritie If from witt you must not thinke amisse of me if I preferre the witt and iudgment of many worlds of learned mē before yours which hath declared it selfe vnreasonable hetherto especiallie since all men be lyars to turne the point of your owne weapon vppon your selfe and you no God nor Angell but a man If your argumēts haue their streingth from authoritie either this authoritie is of men and this you haue refused as vncertaine because all mē are lyars and you haue laboured not onelie to disgrace the Church of later tymes and the Fathers in their age but allso to take the Apostles triping and therefore their authoritie moues not you Or this authoritie is of God in holie Scripture where he deliuers according to your distinction two sorts of points the one is of fundamentall points and in these you confesse that the Church neither doth nor can erre and therfore the ensuing controuersie is not about them as for example the Incarnation the passion and the rest which you call fundamentall The other sort of points or textes in the Bible are as you call them not-fundamentall and these you do not hold for certaine which howsoeuer you dissemble the matter is cleere for in your principles there are no meanes from God or man to knowe certainlie that they are indeede parts of Gods word or to knowe which is their true meaning Not the witte of man alone for that may erre especiallie in such an obscure point as whether this text this verse be Gods word and not the word of a man Not the Spirit for that doth assist onelie to fundamentalls you saie and these you say are not of them you must answer this heere before you goe further and knowe that of the certainty of consequences it is the same Moreouer since diuine assistance to the vnderstanding of the Scripture depends vppon Gods promise and since this promise is made vnto the Church to the Apostles and their successors you are first to prooue that you are the Church before any man is to beleeue you haue the assistance ād interprete right for arguments out of Scripture prooue nothing if they misse the sense of God and be grounded in a wronge sense For these and the like reasons I might haue forborne to make further answeare to your exceptions Notwithstanding to giue you content I will descende vnto the particular consideration of the chiefest 2. First therefore to make your waie into the Church there to spoile and aulter
is the sense of the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and of the holie Ghost himselfe And in this sense of vnbloodie exteriour Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine the catholique church diffused thorough the whole world doth and euer did vniuersallie consent as I haue sufficientlie declared 76. Lastlie taking the Christian Church thus beleeuing and practizing and comparing it to the Prophecies I confound the Iewes too and make an in euitable demoÌ„stration that the Catholique Church in communion of all Nations thus offering a cleane Oblation to God EVERIE WHERE is the true Church of God and shake those people of with that of Malachie My will is not in you saith the Lord of hosts and guifte I wil not receaue at your hand Mal. 1. v. 10 11. for from the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe my name is greate among the GENTILES and IN EVERIE PLACE there is Sacrificing and there is offered to my name a CLEANE OBLATION because my name is greate AMONGE THE GENTILES saith the Lord of Hosts THE TENTH CHAPTER Tradition 80. BEing not able with your sillie Arguments to driue vs from the Masse you growe desperate and runne foolishlie into the mouth of a Canon It was declared at Nice and since againe at Trent Conc. Nicen 2. act 7. Conc. Tr. sess 4. that Tradition is to be admitted without it you can knowe nothing in diuine matters because it must reach you the Scriptures wherein you pretend to grouÌ„d your selfe Yet because it doth withall offer more then you are willing to receaue you speake against it I haue spoken of it sufficientlie in the first and third bookes but since you repeate your argument I will resume also part of my discourse 8s The doctrine of Tradition is grounded in the Scripture 2. Thess 2. v. 15. Hold and obserue the Traditions which you haue learned either by word of mouth or by our letter heere are distinguished as you see plainlie two waies of deliuering the sacred truth and instruction one is by writing the other by word of mouth and it is to be kept and obserued if the Apostle may be iudge in the matter whether it be deliuered the one way or the other The same in another place allso he doth teach writing vnto Timothie thus 2 Tim. 2. v 2. The things which thou hast heard of me by manie wittnesses commend vnto faithfull men which shall be fitte to teach others allso This is the care the Apostle did take that what he had said might be conuaied vnto Posteritie from haÌ„d to hand commend vnto them saith he which shall be fitte he doth not say to write but to teach these thiÌ„gs which thou hast heard of me he doth not say which thou hast reade but heard and that openlie by manie wittnesses this doctrine taught by word of mouth is to be conserued by teaching others and this is the sacred depositum where of he had spokeÌ„ in the former chapter referring the good keeping thereof to the assistance of the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 1. v 14. keepe the good depositum by the holie Ghost which dwelleth in vs. Which is conformable to our Sauiours promise in S. Iohn He the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you He saith not whatsoeuer shall be written but whatsoeuer I shall saie and God the Father in his promise to the Church Isa 59. v. 21 My words that I haue putte in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c. which words are more generall then if he had said thus the Scripture shall neuer be out of thy eies or thou shalt be euer reading that which I will cause to be writteÌ„ or it shall neuer out of the booke whereinsoeuer I shall write it he saith not so but my words shall not out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede from hence forth for euer a cleere testimonie of the perpetuitie of sacred doctrine euer deliuered by word of mouth which is the thing wee call Tradition 82. Heerevppon Sainct Ireneus a man neere vnto the Apostles tyme â— Iren. l. 3. â—du Haeres â— 2.3.4 and well seene in their doctrine doth say that the Tradition in the Church receaued from the Apostles hath beene kept by the Succession of Bisshops that the Apostles laid vp in the Church as in a rich depositorie all truth and that therefore for resolution of controuersies recourse is to be made vnto the most auncient Churches So likewise Tertullian one allso of those who were neere vnto the Apostles tyme doth tell vs that in disputation with Heretiques wee are not to appeale vnto the Scripture Tertull. Praesc c. 19. because Heretiques will interprete as they list but that wee must inquire where the faith where the Church is from whom by whom when and to whom the discipline hath beene deliuered whereby Christians are made for where it shall appeale that the truth of discipline and Christian faith is there will be the truth of the Scriptures and of Expositions and of all Christian Traditions wee must vse Tradition S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Vide eundem in haeresi 55. 69. saith S. Epiphanius because all things cannot be had out of diuine scripture wherefore the holie Apostles haue deliuered some things by scriptures and some things by Tradition Many things saith Sainct Augustine are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the constitutions of later Councells which notwithstanding are beleeued to haue bene deliuered and commended by them the Apostles because by the vniuersall Church they are obserued S. August l. 2. Bapt c. Donat. c. 7. The doctrines which are obserued and taught in the Church wee haue partlie by the written word and partlie wee haue had them brought vnto vs by Apostolicall tradition S. Basil l. de sp s c. 27. Ib. c. 29. S. Chrys in 2. Thess â— saith S. Basil and in another place I esteeme it Apostolicall to perseuer in vnwritten traditions It is manifest saith S. Iohn Chrysostome that the Apostles deliuered not all by letters but many things without writing and these the vnwritten are as worthie to be beleeued as those other deliuered by writing Wherefore wee thinke the Churches tradition worthie of beleefe it is a tradition Vincent Lirin c. 1. 2. looke no more To conclude Vincentius Lirinensis in his booke of the Prophane Noueltie of Heresies doth tell that he learned of wise and holie men this way to perseuer in the true faith to fence it as he saith with the authoritie of the diuine lawe and with the tradition of the Catholique Church And obiecting presentlie to him selfe as if Ecclesiasticall authoritie were not necessarie because of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures he answeares that it is necessarie because all men vnderstand not the Scripture the same way because of the depth
of it which he declares largelie in old Heretiques and the same wee see in the moderne by experience and then concludes that it is therefore verie necessarie in regard of so many windings of errour to direct the line of propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation according to the rule of the ecclesiasticall and Catholique sense 83. This is heere sufficient for Traditions diuine and Apostolicall which the Spiritte of the Church being to leade vnto all truth doth distinguish from such as are false and superstitious and doth easilie defend against all you can say The Scripture hath not one word against them as anie man will easilie see who doth but marke what he doth reade and will not take speaking for writing which the most ignorant with attention can distinguish in them selues being able to doe the one and not the other And the Fathers are cleere as you haue seene requiring euer tradition as indeed it is required for the Scripture and for the sense though the written word be perfect within its owne bouÌ„ds You allso though you loath it neuer so much must needs admitte of it for the Scripture for the number of Canonicall bookes for the pars of them for the sense and for other things you being not able anie other way in the world to answeare anie man who would denie them or to persuade him to beleeue that you haue the word of God or anie part of it Moreouer this doctrine is by generall consent of the Church defined in the Councells of Nice and Trent and hath beene the meanes whereby the Catholique Church hath conserued vntill now the word of God and therefore the contrarie open Heresie being opposite vnto Gods expresse words which I haue put downe in the begining of this chapter and to the beleefe of the old Fathers of generall Councells and of the Church 84 The text all scripture is profitable c. is answeared in the first booke c. 4. It is profitable true but it is not all sufficient It is sufficient too in one kinde for the written word but nor in all kinds not all-sufficient Tradition and diuine Assistance are necessarie too each in their kinde doth concurre Tradition is more generall then writing it deliuers the scripture and the sense of it and can teach also without writing and did before the Scripture was extant This Tradition relieth vppon the diuine Assistance whereof I haue discoursed largelie the third booke and neede not repeate it heere Particular causes in this lower world are sufficient in their kinde a horse to generate a horse a man to generate a man but the effect is not produced without the concurrence of higher causes The Sunne and a man saith the Philosopher produce a man The inferiour and superiour causes are sufficient in their kinds and yet vnles the prime and most vniuersall cause doth concurre nothing is produced You are to prooue that the Scriture is sufficient in all kinds if you will exclude tradition To all your peaching your mouth is profitable and sufficient too in that kinde you need not two mouthes but wthout a tongue you cannot doe it Mouth and tongue are profitable and sufficient in their kindes but you cannot doe it without braines braines and witte are profitable and sufficient in their kinds but all will not serue without learning So that you see the argument is not good it is profitable and to all therefore all-sufficient 85. And thus I am come at last to the end of this part also hauing answeared the chiefest things which you oppose in the decrees of the Church and shewed how the Church representatiue is vniustlie accused of errour The Decrees of generall Councells were beleeued before Caluin had any Schoole and will be when he hath neuer a Scholler In them is the highest TEACHING AVTHORITIE in the world and therefore the Schollers of Iesus Christ must beleeue what they define The sheepe are not to choose their pasture ould wiues and plowmen are not to decide Controuersies in Religion they are not to asceÌ„d the Chaire and expound Scripture to the world No the Pastors must doe this Mat. 28. Act. 20.10.21 Ephes 4. The Apostles aÌ„d their successors were sent to teach God put Bisshops to rule the Church he charged Peeter to feede his flocke The pastors are to teach The sheepe to learne 86. In generall Councells the Pastors are are assembled their Authoritie is vnited there to moue the Whole to teach the Church The Church is to followe their common direction and therefore it belonges to Gods prouidence to assist them defining And the whole Church vniuersallie doth beleeue that such Councells are assisted and cannot erre learned vnlearned people and Pastors all beleeue it and all the Church as I shewed you before cannot erre The Apostles did beleeue it allso and so vnderstood the promise of Iesus Christ Act. 15. Io. 16. when he said that the holie Ghost should teach them all truth God rules and moues the lower world by the higher The heauens vertue doth begette and conserue things heere on earth To the heauens for the regularitie of their Motion he hath addicted an Intelligence Our Sauiour hath so disposed his Church that the Laitie are mooued and gouerned in matters of Religion by the Clergie Rom. 20. Rom. 10. The Pastors begette and conserue in the people faith by preaching the the word of God And to the Pastors for the Regularitie of their Motion he hath left an Assisting Spirit Io. 16. the Holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth The Christian truth is to be learned in the Schoole of Iesê° Christ this Schoole is the the Catholique Church The highest CHAIER in it is a Perfect Oecumenicall COVNCELL No man hath or can with any apparence pretend as will appeare in the examination a fuller participation of the TEACHING POWER then such a Councell 87. To make an end therefore coÌ„sider well what I do saie That definitioÌ„ which the Catholique Church vniuersallie Of Church proposition there is more in the third booke where I haue allso told you how the diuine authoritie aÌ„d the Church authoritie doe moue both in seuerall kinds to the same acte doth take for a sufficâ—eÌ„â— direction of her faith by way of Proposition IS FREE froÌ„ errour Otherwise the Catholique Church vniuersallie might erre which is vnpossible as I haue declared in the third booke Now the Catholique Church vniuersallie doth take the definition of the Councell which SHEE ESTEEMETH Oecumenicall to be a sufficient direction of her faith by waye of Proposition as I haue declared there also And hence it comes that the definition of a Councell ESTEEMED by the Catholique Church Oecumenicall is free froÌ„ errour Will you haue another way without recourse to such a Councell Take this What the Bisshops diffused those I meane who are in the Catholique communioÌ„ do vniformelie teach is true If you should oppose that they are many and that you cannot know the doctrine of them all being diffused I would answere that by their communion with the See Apostolique their doctrine is knowne sufficiently for this purpose aÌ„d their communion is very manifest vnto all Where you must note that it is the exteriour professioÌ„ which I atteÌ„d vnto PropositioÌ„ this is easilie knowne and this as farre as it is vniforme in ALL Bishops in the Catholique communioÌ„ be they many or few so they be all is WARRANTED by the Holie Ghost and by this exteriour proposition or commoÌ„ doctrine whatsoeuer els any of them thinke secretly in their mindes I am to be directed Ephes 4. Mat. 28.10.16 He Christ gaue Pastors that wee be not wauering Teach all Nations and behold I am with you The spirit of truth shall teach you all truth If you dispute againe meddle not with points not yet agreed vppon among vs. Talke not of things controuerted in our Schooles at this daie The proposition which you oppose if you will oppose me must be a Catholique proposition agreed on generally by the Church Other things I can dispute in our owne Schooles and with such as know them better then you doe
time in this world is but short the sunne runnes it ouer with infinite speede and the poste of nature is on the way how neere God only knoweth to giue vs notice of a dissolution wherein each of vs being as it were diuided one half is rendered to the earth to feede wormes the other caried away to the tribunall to heare a sentence of eternitie Happie are those who prizing God solidly aboue all and adhering to him as the fountaine of all good take this iourney with full resignation of their spirit and die in the Churche's armes I send you this booke desiring you to pâ—ruse it I would haue willinglie come my self to haue taken part with you but imployments tieâ— me heere In my youth when I had lost my best frind whose soule rest in peace I lost a greate deale of my time and it seemes almightie God hath so disposed of me that I must now repaire the losse If you find the thing lesse accâ—unte then you might haue expected you knowâ— my excuse When two imployments do meetâ— in a narrow vnderstanding and that but poorely lodged both do suffer Those who laboured in â—epairing the walls of Ierusalem whilst they did worke with one hand were forced in the other to take a sword I fight but with one hand The faults and imperfections heere are mine in the resolution the Catholique world doth agree and you haue the prayers of them all as long as you keepe your selues in their communion You haue also the prayers of all the Saincts in heauen the communion of the Church reaching thither And our Sauiour there doth mediate vnto his Father in your behalf You haue God an aduocate vnto God the Sonne to the Father doe not feare but serue him carefully and he will multiplie his blessings on you and if wee spend the few daies of our peregrination well will bring vs all in the end in to our cuntrey Heauen to the Church of the first borne to the company of many thousands of Angels where there is perpetuall Iubilie where God is all in all Then death shall be no more nor moorning nor sorrow There shall be no more hunger nor thirst neither shall the suâ—ne fall vppon you nor any heate and God vvâ—l wipe away all teares from your eies Fare â—ou well And let vs resigne our selues whollâ— to the blessed will of God and pray each foâ— other that wee may be saued Yours by manifold obligationâ— F. E. THe Quesâ—â—on Where a man is to seeke InstructioÌ„ in matteâ— of Religion The Answere In the Church in Communion with the See of Rome This resoluâ—â—on is heere declared in three Propositions 1. Thâ— Catholique Church is assisted by the Holy Ghost to all â—â—uth the third Booke 2. And is that which is in Commâ—â—ion with the See of Rome the secoÌ„d Booke 3. Not the â—ompany of Protestants the first Booke The Boâ—ke is so little it needeth not an Index in place of oâ—e take this direction God liâ— 2. cap. 4. Incarnation of the second Person Ibid His Church foretould lib. 2. cap. 1. Raised and prâ—pagated lib. 2. cap. 5. Visibile lib. 2. ca. 1. lib 3. ca. 1. 2. 6. Continued till now lib. 2. cap. 2. 3. Thâ— Holy Ghost assisting in it lib. 3. cap. 1. to all Truthe 2. fundamentall and not fundamentall c. 3. The written Doctrine lib. 4. cap. 5. The Vnwritten â—â—b 4. cap. 10. Particular points of her doctrine prâ—ued by text of Scripture lib. 1. cap. 6. Her Iâ—teriour Sanctitie lib. 3. cap. 5. Exteriour acte of diâ—ine worshippe lib. 4. cap. 9. TransubstaÌ„tiation in the Masse cap. 8. Flesh and blood reallie in the Saâ—rament cap. 6. and by Antiquitie so beleeued cap. 7. In the Church Priests and a chiefe Pastour lib. 1. cap. 6. S. Peeter aboue the rest of the Apostles and Pastor of the Church lib. 4. ca. 1. The Pope his Successor and aboue other Bishops cap. 2. President in generall Councells cap. 3. Councells lib. 2. cap. 3. 7. assisted in proposing lib. 3. c. 2. 3 4. lib 4 cap. 10. Who a Catholique lib. 2. c. 6. and lib. 3. cap. 4. Resolution of Faith Ibid. and. li. 3. cap. 4. 5. Answere to Obiections made against Vniuersalitie lib. 2. cap. 7. Sanctitie lib. 3. cap. 5. Visibilitie lib. 3. cap. 6. Succession and Vnitie lib. 2. ca. 7. lib. 3. cap. 4. Infallibilitie lib. 3. cap 5. 7. And against our Doctrine lib. 1. cap. 4. 5. and lib. 4. thoroughout The Protestants are not able to prooue their Religion by Scripture lib. 1. cap. 4. 5. 6. nor by Antiquity cap. 3. They should render account of Predecessors agreeing in all points with them lib. 3. c. 4. but cannot lib. 1. cap. 2. the Waldenses neither were Protestants nor had continuall Succession of their Church from the Apostles lib. 1. cap. 1. The yong Reader may omitte the â— 5. and 6. Chapters of the first Booke To him that hath ministred the occasion of this booke TO one of the two papers which you had from me long agoe you haue shaped as it seemeth a kind of answere yet not an answere neither for you send him that would haue one to looke it in other men that are in print For my part I was not willing at the sight of yours which I espied by meere chaunce and neuer sawe but once to be made an Aprill foole and therefore would not be so farre at your commaund Yet to declare that I was not satisfied Presumed the chiefe question out of which the rest are easilie resolued and disputed it more at large putting downe the conclusions together with their grounds and maintaining them against that which your self or your abettors haue obiected I endeuoured to do this briefly but it so fared with me in this intellectuall businesse as it doth with such as breede the child in the natiuitie is much bigger then at the conception the matter I speake of heere hath an inward inclination to dilate it self and whilst I was writing the discourse prooued a booke VVhere vppon being withall desirous to impart it to my frinds I determined to multiply my coppies by the print when I could spare money to discharge it As I was expecting that opportunitie another occasion arising out of the late persecution solicited me to let it without more delay come abroade and I haue yeelded thereunto though not without diffitcultie I will not addresse the thing particularly against you partly because I dispute also against others with whom I haue exchanged some papers as I did with you and am willing if it may be to be heard where they are partly because your discourse was not a direct answere to that I sent and a posting direction of half a sheete of paper had beene as much as in way of reply it could deserue from me or any other You had handled the matter so that indeede I doubed whether I were the man you meant by the name there put downe
Nouatus and such other found in ould nastie monuments If vppon her now for pittie you will pull the Waldesian habitte spokeÌ„ of in the former chapter the beggars coate I meane represeÌ„ting with partie coloured patches the peeces of her coÌ„stitution and lace it with the ragges you find in Illyricus it will be very trimme But how soeuer you may finde some ragges in Antiquitie it is still euident that after a busie search made by all your deuines into libraries and recordes you are not able to prudence a continuall succession of that kinde of men wherof you are or of that whereof VValdo was from waldo vpwardes to the Apostles I doe not saie a Catholique or vniuersall succession of them but a succession onlie though neuer so small you haue not in euery age a Nation nor one Diocese which were verie litle nor so much such is your beggarie as one man Much more vnpossible is it for you to produce a succession Catholique or vniuersall in that sort that in euerie age and euerie yeere since the Apostles it hath ben common to many Nations which is the condition of the true Church of God 9. You answeare againe and learnedlie as you thinke that in Fundamentall pointes the Romans were Protestant and therfore are well alleaged Are the negatiue propositions in the Bible Gods words aÌ„d de fide or wâ—ll you haue them all blotted out to satisfie the demaund though they were otherwise in not-Fundamentall Or as others cut out the distinction in Affirmatiues they were yours in Negatiues they were not VVhich distinction is laid in the way to catch woodcockes but hindereth not the course of our argument For the Roman Catholique holding those pointes which he doth is noe Protestant nor of the religion currant now a dayes among you And the Protestant is no Roman Catholique his Religion is not that which is currant in Italie in Spaine and other places vnited to the See of Rome wherfore in assigning Roman Catholiques you do not assigne a Protestant succession wheras the thing demaunded is a Protestant succession If I had ben to dispute with the VValdenses in Bohemia I would haue exacted the like proofe for the Religion currant among them that is as I haue tould you many tymes a companie of men of the religion currant now in England wherof some haue succeded others and this must haue bene euer since the Apostles daies if the successioÌ„ be continuall since that tyme. Wee doe not Demaund of you whether wee haue à succession in our Church that wee demaund of you is a succession of your owne of Protestantes not of Papistes of men professing the religion which you doe Shewe this succession produce your euidence to prooue that such men haue bene in all ages and then wee will examine your fundamentalles giuing you time till then for to thinke how many and which they be for assure your selues the common people doe perceaue your vnsufficiencie in answering to the demaund which you cannot flie without crossing and contradicting your owne selues For I aske you is a Papist a Protestant in religion you answeare no. I demaund againe giue me the Protestant succession the Church Protestant of former ages You answeare the Papistes succession was the Protestant succession and the Papisticall Church was the Church Protestant By which answeare graunting and affirming the Papisticall succession and Church to be the Protestant succession and Church you doe graunt and affirme a Papist to be a Protestant which before you had denied and still doe They see also that a Pelagian a Luciferian an Arian or any other hereticke may defend himselfe as you doe for each of them held the true religioÌ„ in part each held some affirmatiues and was negatiue as you speake in other thinges and each pretended that he did not mistake in fundamentalles 10. And wheras you say that you erre not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talles I answeare first that you speake at raÌ„dome aÌ„d by coÌ„iecture mearlie for to this daie you know not which all the fundamentalles are and therfore cannot be certaine whether you beleeue euerie one of them or doe not I answeare secondlie that the point of iustification is the ground and the soule of your religion and you mistake in that and contradict the scripture directlie in it and therefore erre fundamentallie You teach also that the Catholique Church may erre in matters of diuine faith which is a grosse fundamentall errour You denie the reall presence and holie sacrifice in the Masse which is likewise a fundamentall errour And by these and such like you are diuided from the Catholique and so fundamentallie different and diuided Neither is it any matter whether these and the like erroures be expressed in propositions affirmatiue or negatiue an Athyest by reason of one negation is of No Religion as they may be either way for by negatiue errours a man may be an Hereticke Turke Iew or Athiest according to the verities which in his errours he doth contradict To conclude it is cleare that these are shiftes to delaie tyme and to deceaue fooles for the thing wee demaund is a Catalogue of Protestant men such as in England you are of men holding those affirmatiues together with those negatiues which you do hould of men consenting with you in your religion and beleefe entirelie The like argument I would make against the Waldenses Hussites or any other for a man may beleeue the Trinity or the Creede with others and yet differ in ReligioÌ„ as we and you do whether the thinges be called fundamentall or be not called so for wee care not how you call theÌ„ of men which without anie tricke distinction paring of or adding to theÌ„ may flatlie be said to be of the religion ow curraÌ„t there in England of such finallie as being looked into thoroughlie and beheld round about are absolutlie Protestantes or men of your religion Produce the Catalogue of these men let your euidence come to light 11. Your men in the begining wanting companie and disliking the religion of the Waldenses and Hussittes would faine haue shaked handes with the Grecians and made an offer but they were instantlie refused and shaken of Censura Orientalis Ecclesiae as the world doth well know by their Censure in print euerie where You haue tould mee since and vnskillfullie that the Ethiopians are of your religion being demauÌ„ded proofe because it is against histories and against their Liturgies which are extant you are able to bring none neither can I imagine to what purpose you should runne thither vnles it were to get an out side which might keepe colour with the inside of your Church I remember your doctrine is that her soule is euer stained with actuall and Originall sinne and that all her actions are fouled in the same puddle to which doctrine of your owne I may adde by experieÌ„ce that she hath a foule mouth if you will needes haue all this walk in a black out side too you may goe
de assūp sua ad pōtif Onelie Peeter is chosen out of all the world who is put both ouer the vocation of all Nations and ouer all the Apostles and ouer all the Fathers of the Church that allthough there be many Priests and many Pastors amōge the people of God yet Peeter properlie rule or gouerne them All whom Christ principallie doth allso gouerne TRADITION S. Chrys in 2. Thess hom 4. It is manifest that the Apostles deliuered not all things by their Epistles but many things without writing and both the one and the other deserue the same beleefe and therefore let vs esteeme the traditions of the Church to be worthie of faith and credit S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Wee must vse Traditions for the Scripture containeth not all things and therefore the Apostles deliuered certaine things by writing certaine by Tradition REALLE PRESENCE S. Cyrill Hierosol Catech. myst 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 TRANSVBSTANTIATION Serm. de coena Domini apud Cypr. S. Greg. Nyss orat Catech. c. 37. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With all assurance let vs receaue the body and bloode of Christ for in the forme of breade the body is giuen to thee and in the forme of wine the bloode c. knowing and beleeuing most assuredlie that that which appeareth breade is Not Breade though it seeme so to the tast but it is the bodie of Christ and that which appeareth wine is Not wine as the tast doth iudge it to be but the Bloode of Christ The breade which our lord gaue vnto his disciples being changed not in Shape but in Nature by the omnipotencie of the Word is made flesh Christ thorough the dispensation of his grace entreth by his flesh into all the faithfull and mingleth himselfe with their bodies which haue their substance from breade and wine to the end that man being vnited vnto that which is immortall may attaine to be made partaker of incorruption and these things he bestoweth transelementing the Nature of the things that are seene into it SACRIFICE S. Cyrill Alexand. in declar anathem 11. Conc. Ephes Iren. l. 4. c. 32. Wee celebrate in the Church the holie quickning and Vnbloodie Sacrifice beleeuing not that that which is shewed is the bodie of some common man like vs and his bloode but wee receaue it rather as the life giuing words owne flesh and bloode for common flesh cannot giue life Christ tooke bread and gaue thankes saying this is my bodie and the chalice likwise c he confessed to be his blood and taught the new Oblation of the new testament which the Church receauing from the Apostles doth offer to God in All the world In the books of the Machabees wee reade that Sacrifice was offered for the deade PRAYER FOR THE DEADE S. Aug. l. de cura pro mort c. 1. but were it no where reade in old Scripture the Authoritie of the whole Church which in this custome is well knowne is not small where in the prayers of the Priest which are powered out to our lord God at his Alter the commendation allso of the deade hath a place VVORSHIP OF SAINCTES Iustin Mart. Apol. 2. ad Ant. Wee doe worship and adore God the father and his Sonne who came and taught vs these things and the companie of his followers and the like good Angells and the propheticke Spirit and wee doe worship them both by word and deedes and in truth and wee teach or deliuer this abundantlie to all those which will learne according as wee haue bene taught and instructed PRAYER TO SAINCTS S. Ambros l. de Viduis The Angells are to be beseeched which are giuen to vs for our guard martyrs are to be beseeched whose patronage wee seeme to challenge by the pledge of their bodies They can aske for our sinnes who with their bloode haue washed away their owne if they had any They are Gods martyrs our presidents beholders of our liues and actions let vs not be ashamed to make them intercessors of our infirmitie CROSSING S. Aug. tract 118 in Ioan. What is that signe of Christ which all know but the Crosse of Christ which signe vnles it be applied either to the foreheads of the faithfull or to the water whereby they are regenerated or to the oyle wherewith they are confirmed or to the Sacrifice wherwith they are nourisshed nothing of this is well donne This will serue my turne and now I argue thus If our doctrine be found in the writings of Antiquitie and there approoued it is vnpossible for any man to make it euident that Antiquitie is against vs and for you but our doctrine is there found and approued as the authors before named declare abundantlie therefore c. And in Confirmation hereof I take only that which they alleage out of those writings which are by your selues acknowledged for ancient and currant because I neede not here dispute of the authoritie of such as your men and some of ours do except against Of this sense of Antiquitie I haue here allso giuen you a tast whereby a iudgmēt not distempered will perceaue immediatelie that you cannot make it euident that they were on your side And in naming them for your predecessors you giue no satisfaction to the demaūd which inquires for vndeniable and cleere euidence of a successiō of such men as in Religion you are The third book shall teach you whose interpretatiō must be stood to or of Protestants I knowe that you do offer to delude all the places which wee bringe but men of iudgment may see by your answeares that you dare not stand to the proper sense of the Fathers words an experience whereof they may see presentlie if they will but obiect vnto you these fewe places here cited ād obserue what poore answeares you make and how farre they are from the plaine ād Grāmaticall sense of the words or sentences Now further if your owne mē would open their mouthes and confesse plainlie what they beleeue in their consciences touching the doctrine of Antiquitie your assertiō or challenge would euidentlie yet appeare more vnreasonable and voyde of title muche lesse would it deserue to be supposed for certaine on your side that in those dayes all were yours Wee will demaund of two or three of thē if you please and the rather because their confession shall make roome for the next argument and bringe it in 23. Speake Fulck and begin I confesse that Ambrose Ful. reio to Brist p. 36. Kem. exam Con. Trid. par 3. p. 200. Hierome Augustine held inuocation of Saincts Kemnitius Most of the Fathers as Nazianzen Nyssen Basil Theodoret Ambrose Hierome Augustine did not dispute but auouch the soules of martyrs and Saincts to heare the petitions of those who prayed vnto thē they went often to the monuments of martyrs and inuocated Martyrs by name Whit. Def. p. 473. whitgift All the Bysshops ād learned writers of the Greeke Church ād Latines allso for
you must consider that the eie of faith ād the corporall eie may both finde their obiects in one and the same thing Wee reade the Scripture ād beleeue the sense The Apostles saw our Sauiour and beleeued he was the Sonne of God The faithfull assēbled when the holie Ghost came amongst them were visible and yet they where the Church First therefore in a word I will declare that the Church of God which soeuer be is visible secondlie I will shewe you the greatnes of it which is the thing I principallie doe intend in this Chapter thirdlie the durance or perpetuitie that you may frame in your vnderstanding the true conceipt of the Church of God 3. And first touching the visibilitie or to speake yet more generallie touching the sensible perceptibility of the thing wee speake of it is cleere that that which makes a continuall noise Visibilitie and is alwaies speaking and in all mens eies and cannot be hid is a thing sensible vnto men that haue eies and eares and if this thing be in all Nations and at all tymes it is sensible to all the world Now this is the condition of the Church of God Psal 18. v. 6. Isa 52. v. 10 which soeuer it be which I prooue thus by Scripture He hath put his tabernacle in the Sunne saith Dauid and Isaie Our lord hath prepared his holie arme in the eies of all the Gētiles and all the endes of the earth shall see the saluation of our God They of the west shall feare the name of our Lord and they of the rising of the sunne his glorie when he shall come as a violent streame 59. v. 19.20 21. which the spirit of our Lord driueth and there shall come the Redeemer to Sion and to them that returne from iniquitie in Iacob saith our Lord. This is my couenant with them saith our Lord. My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our Lord 62. v. 6. Mat. 5. v. 15 See S. Aug. enar in ps 47. from this present and for euer Vppon thy walls Ierusalem I haue appointed watchmen All the day and all the night for euer they shall not hold their peace You are the light of the world a cittie cannot be hid situated on a montaine 4. I omitte the allegation of more authorities because hereafter I shall speake more of this matter and these fewe declare and prooue manifestlie the truth of that which I said I goe therefore on to the chiefe point intended in this Chapter which is to shewe Gods eternall and inuiolable ordinance about the Churches vniuersalitie Vniuersalitie Gal. 3. And to begin with Moyses wee haue in him the promise of an ample Posteritie to old Abraham Father of Beleeuers made by God himselfe and expounded by S. Paul of the Church of Christ Gen. 22. v. 17. I will blesse thee and I will multiplie thy seede as the starres of heauen and as the sand that is in the sea shore thy seed shall possesse the gates of their enimies and in thy seed shall be blessed all the Nations of the earth This did God then confirme with an oath and proceeding in the promise 28. v. 14. confirmed it againe to Iacob afterward thy seed shall he as the dust of the earth thou shalt be dilated to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south and in thee and in thy seede all the tribes of the earth shall be blessed Next in the psalmes wee heare God the Father saying vnto his sonne our Sauiour Psal 2. v. 8 aske of me and I will giue the Gentiles for thine inheritance and thy possession the ends of the earth and the Prophet adds in an other psalme all the ends of the earth shall remember and be conuerted vnto our Lord 21. v. 28.29 and all the families of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight All Natiōs whatsoeuer thou hast made shall come and shall adore before thee o lord 65. v. 6. 5. Among the Prophets Isaie In the latter daies the mountaine of the house of our lord shall be prepared in the top of mountaines and shall be raised aboue the little hilles Isa 2 v. 2.3 and all Nations shall flowe vnto it and many people shall goe and shall saie come and let vs goe vp to the mount of our lord and to the house of the God of Iacob and he will teach vs his waies and wee shall walke in his paths And againe vppon thee o Ierusalem shall our lord arise and his glorie shall beseene vppon thee and the Gentiles shall walke in thy light and kings in the brightnes of the rising 60. v. 2.3.4 5. lift vp thine eies round about and behold all these are gathered together they are come vnto thee thy sonnes shall come from a farre and thy daughters shall arise from thy side then shalt thou see and shalt abound and thy hart shall wonder and be enlarged when the multitude of the sea shall be conuerted vnto thee the strengh of Gentiles shall come to thee After him Daniel I beheld in the vision of the night and loe with the clouds of heauen there came in as it were the sonne of man Dan. 7. v. 13.14 and he came euen to the auncient of daies and in his sight they offered him and he gaue him power and honour and kingdome and all people tribes and tongues shall serue him his power is an eternall power that shall not be taken awaie and his kingdeme shall not be corrupted The like is in the rest I adde onelie Malachie which is the last and neerest to our Sauiours tyme from the rising of the sunne euen to the going downe Mal. 1. v. 11 great is my name among the Gentiles and in euerie place there is sacrificing and there is offered vnto my name a cleane Oblation because my name is great among the Gentiles saith the lord of hostes 6. As the old Testament so the newe doth establish the foresaid vniuersalitie of the Church and our Sauiour doth giue commission vnto his disciples and to their Successors to raise such a one All power saith he is giuen me in heauen and in earth going therefore teach yee all Nations Mat. 28. v. 19.20 baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the sonne ād of the holie Ghost teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you and behold I am with you all daies euen to the consummation of the world Going into the world preach the Gospell to all creatures And in another Mar. 16. v. 15. he declares the issue of the foresaid propheticall speaches against such as would haue imagined they were cōditionall speaches onelie These are the words which I spake to you Luk. 24. v. 44.45.46 when I
Scripture and Gentiles learned in Philosophy did labour to suppresse Christianitie and to disproue and discredit these miracles by which it was confirmed and proued to be diuine On the other side were the Christians persecuted and molested for this doctrine and to be depriued of their goods honours libertie countrey and liues Both sides did examine earnestly the truth of things the one because they would suppresse the Religion begining to spred it self the other because it did concerne their liues and further their eternall estate The memorie of things was fresh and both sides were present vnto the tyme and place A more eager inquisitiō a greater cause there was neuer any You knowe the issue The poore fisher-mē did preuaile There were innumerable and among them as wise men as greate Schollers as the world had euer any gaue their liues in testimony of the truth Our aduersaries were confounded Miracles still encreased The world became Christian and still continueth so He that notwithstanding all this will not beleeue those things were donne and that indeede they were miracles is constrained to see a miracle strange without example before his owne eies He sees that now the world beleeues the obscure Christian Creede persuaded thereunto by a fewe poore cōtemned and vnlettered fisher-men Reade S. Aug. de ciuit l. 22. c. 5 this miracle effected by fishermen they must see whith their eies and therefore vnles they will denie that which with their owne eies they see they must graunt that those poore men could and haue donne a miracle 48. If at the tyme when the Apostles did receaue their commission to teach the world a man should haue demāded whether those fishermen were euer like to bring to passe this greate worke which wee see with our eies now that is whether they were like to make the World Christian it would haue bene thought incredible vnpossible Considering the hardnes and obscuritie of the Doctrine they were to preach the Learning of the Philosophers with whom they not brought vp in Schooles were to encounter the diuersitie of iudgmēt in the world in things farre more intelligible no Master hauing euer beene able to winne so many followers in things more cleere considering allso the sundry conditions lawes customes formes of gouerment in the World which before was neuer brought vnder ONE COMMON RVLE or lawe by any man and especially if the violent Oppositions of Princes Emperours and the World in commō had beene foreseene Since therefore this greate worke incredible and vnpossible in mans iudgment is effected as wee see and by those simple men by the Disciples of Iesus it is euident that a supernaturall and diuine power did worke by them You know that Plato one of the Witts of the World was long about a Common wealth and could neuer make it any where but in his minde Philosophie hath beene labouring many thousand yeeres to vnite all vnderstandings in the grounds of Nature cleere in thē selues and within the compasse of mans witte but with all her Schooles she cannot effect her purpose the lōger she teacheth the more men disagree The Arabian Impostor to winne the people laid open a wide path towards a sensuall Paradise tempering his Religion to the popular taste and lest any thing should hinder his diffusiō gotte the Turkish sword to make his waie No maruaile then if there be many in that sinke either willinglie descending to the sense or tumbled downe by force The Fisher-mē hauing neuer heard Philosophy speake out of her pulpit were to make the Schooles beleeue a darke obscure Creede being vnarmed they were to meete the Sword They had no sooner begunne their taske but mens hāds were full of bookes against their doctrine and the world in horrour affrighted with the tormēts prouided for their Schollers Yet vnlerned and vnarmed as they were notwithstanding the violent oppositions of sensualitie Power ād Hell it self they haue brought their Creede ād discipline Posteritie being astonished at the euent into Nations into Courts into the whole World and so powerfully that it hath bē vniuersallie diffused these sixteene hundred yeeres And heereby haue raised a Church vnto their Master Iesus Christ greater thē all the Societies all States all Kingdomes all Monarchies that euer were before 49. I haue now donne what I intented in this place onelie because the thing I speake of is a Church let me a little looke vppon it in that forme The house of God you knowe is founded in faith raised by hope couered with charitie Faith is the foundation the walls Hope and Charitie is the roofe In faith the Apostles were eminent as being Masters of Christianitie and are therefore Mountaines whereon the rest of the Church doth stand according to the Prophetie Isa 2. In the later daies the Mountaine the house of our Lord shall be prepared in the toppe of moūtaines They were eminent in sāctitie likewise whereuppō another Prophetie Psal 86. The foundations thereof in the holie Mountaines And what the Apostles taught the Prophets as being eleuated aboue others with whom they liued to see things farre of did foretell and after their manner also teach so as they come in within the cōpasse of the Foundation too wherefore the Apostle in his Epistle to the Ephesiās You saith he are citizēs of the Saincts Ephes 2. and the domesticalles of God built vppō the Foūdation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the highest corner stone in whom the building framed together groweth vnto an holie Temple in our Lord in whom you are also built together into an habitatiō of God in the holie Ghost These Apostles and Prophets doe relie vppon Iesus Christ a MOVNTAINE in regard of his knowledge Power and Sanctitie wherein as mā he doth excell men and Angells all together and as God he is infinite in each of them On him beīg the prime Veritie ād the increated Word of God the Father profound in all kinde of perfection immoueable and eternall the Catholique Church doth stand On him the Apostles on the Apostles Christian men are built as liuing stones held togeather by Cōmunion ād raised vp by strōge Hope towards heauen to the very sight of God Be yee quoth S. Peeter superedified as it were liuing stones spirituall houses In the golden roofe 1. Pet 2. millions of Sainctes do shine ād giue light to the edificatiō of others The Pillars are the Pastors who strongly support the Building and are wōderfullie disposed in Order Hierarchicall according to the forme of that which is in the Angelicall Church in heauen In these Pillars all the Vertues are aliue The Dore of this Temple knowne generallie by the name of Baptisme is open to all parts of the world ād infinite do enter washed cleane as they come in So the Prophet In that day shall be a Fountaine lying open to the house of Dauid Zach. 13. vnto the Inhabitants of Ierusalem for the ablution of the Sinner This water taketh away the spottes
the assistance of the holie Ghost why was it promised vnto the Apostles and their successors why all this if exterior proposition be not necessarie for Gods people and why rather doth not euerie man bid adue to pastors Apostles Bible and all exterior meanes and expect to be illuminated and instructed inwardlie and priuatelie about heauen and diuine thinges Thus euerie man might be master in religion iudge in controuersies and a Church vnto himselfe 10. I will not repeate what you saie aboute the rule of scripture for that I haue said allreadie and hath bene obiected vnto you oft is more then all your fellowes could euer answeare yet as that without the iudgment of Gods Spiritte in the Church men cannot be certaine which is Gods word and what is the sense and therfore you must yeeld at last that the Church is assisted in proposing diuine things by the Spiritte of Allmightie God 11. c. 1. A fourth argument I make out of the promises of perpetuitie made vnto the Church and related in the former booke Heresie Arg. 4 destroies faith if therfore the whole Church were fallen into Heresie it were fallne allso frō the faith it were no more the Church as that is no more a man which hath not a sowle Since therfore it is cleere by the testimonie of God himselfe that the Church cannot faile it is certaine allso that is cannot fall from faith and therfore that Gods prouidence doth perpetuallie assist it to the conseruation of the faith You answeare that the whole Church may fall from Charitie and from the loue of God and therfore from faith allso This would not follow in termes because loue doth suppose faith and therfore if God had not otherwise ordained might be gone and leaue it behind as it doth oft in particular men And peraduenture your selfe do not loue euerie one you knowe or if you do euerie bodie doth not so wherfore loue and knowledge may be parted But omitting this I replie that your affirmation is against the authoritie of holie Scripture Ierem. 31.33 This shall be the couenant which I will make with the howse of Israel saith our Lord speaking of the Catholique Church I will giue my lawe in their bowells and in their hart I will write it Ezech. 37.26 and I will be their God and they shall be my people I will giue my sanctification in the middest of them for euer and my tabernacle shall be in them c. I will despouse thee to me for euer and I will despouse thee to me in iustice and iudgment Osee 2.19.20 and in mercie and commiserations and I will despowse thee to me in faith and thou shalt know that I am the lord By this you haue that the Catholique Church can neuer be separated from the loue of Christ howsoeuer some particular members of it may as some partes of a mans bodie many be without sēse though the whole can neuer be without it And hence I confirme further the infallibilitie before mētioned for holines doth include freedome from errour and constancie in the faith but the Church of God is holie allwaies as here you haue heard and in the Creed you professe to beleeue it therfore it is allwayes free from errour 12. The fift way to prooue the said assistance is the continuall presence of our Sauiour and thus the discourse is made If the Apostles and their successors haue the assistance of our Arg. 5 Sauiour to the preaching of the Gospell and ministring of the Sacraments continuallie till the worlds end then hath the Church diuine assistance since the Apostles and their successors be the Church and our Sauiour God But the Apostles and their successors haue this assistance of our Sauiour as the words of the Gospell do prooue and manifest where our Sauiour to his disciples said Matth. 28 18.19.20 All power is giuen to me in heauen and in earth going therfore teach yee all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the sonne ād of the holie Ghost teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you ād behold I am with you all daies euen to the consummation of the world You know that a coexistence of two things to the end of the world includes the existence of each of them all that tyme. I was not with you all the yeere because I came awaie before it was halfe donne Since therfore the Apostles had not existence here on earth all the dayes till the worlds ēd which is not yet come though they be dead and gone many hundred yeares agoe it followes that our Sauiour speakes allso in them to their successors and consequently to the Church in all ages whilst the world doth endure And by this meanes I haue what I desire in this place that I neede looke no further first the assistance in these words I am with you before which our blessed Sauiour not ignorant of the difficultie which you would make in this matter put an ecce behold I am with you I haue secondlie the parties whome he doth assist to witt the Apostles which were the Church and in them their successors whilst the world endures that is the Church in all ages in these words I am with you all the dayes euen to the consummation of the world I haue thirdlie the obiect of the assistance that is to what kinde of acts and how farre it doth extend teach all nations baptizing thē c. teaching thē to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaūded you Fourthlie I haue here continuall assistance to visible acts for such are preaching ād baptizing ād these are visible to all natiōs since all natiōs are to heare these thīgs ād to be baptized ād since all nations doe not heare and receaue baptisme at one tyme as wee see by experience but some one tyme some another since allso the assistance to these actes is perpetuall and therfore the actes themselues perpetuallie found in the world it is manifest euen by this promise without going further that there is in the world a perpetuall visible Church Fiftlie that our Sauiour cā thus assist howsoeuer he doth bringe it about I haue in these words al power is giuen to me in heauen and in earth So that if wee beleeue Iesus Christ no further doubt can be made of this assistance 13. Out of the former comes another which is grounded in the obligation Christians haue to heare their pastors and to beleeue their doctrine and it shall be the sixt which I will make thus If all the people in the world be Arg. 6 obliged vnder paine of eternall damnation to beleeue the doctrine which the Church that is the Apostles and their successors do teach it belongs to the goodnes and prouidence of God thus obliging them to haue a care that it be right ād true otherwise he would oblige them to erre and liue amisse which is against the goodnes and therfore against the nature of
allmightie God But it is true that all the people in the world are thus obliged as I prooue by the words of our Sauiour in sainct Marke Going into the world preach the Gospell to all creatures Mar. 16. v. 15.16 he that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued but he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Out of this argument followeth yet further that the Church cannot erre in any thing of faith whether it be fundamentall or not fundamentall incurable or curable great or little for the people are to beleeue that which the Church doth teach and thus God doth warrant in the place here alleaged and therfore it appertaines vnto his prouidēce to assist and protect the Church so that it neuer teach errour in steede of Gods word 14. The seauenth argument I make out of the iudgment of all Christiās before Luther touching the foresaid obligation to beleeue the Church and the diuine spirit in it And here I except onelie such as your selfe shall confesse to haue bene Heretiques and proceede thus Generall Councells did allwayes Arg. 7 beleeue that the Church was to be beleeued and that it had diuine assistance and therfore did accurse all those who beleeued the contrarie to the Church This you know by their acts and canons The people in communion with these Councells did beleeue the same which the Councells did and receaued that which they defined The fathers Saint Augustine Saint Hierome and the rest did the same And the same did all the predestinate who liued in the communion of the Church takinge their instruction from the mouth of the Church and beleeuing as the Church did which is further manifest because those are damned who beleeued not the Church as hath bene prooued in the former argument out of Sauiours words since therfore the predestinate are saued it remaines vndeniable that they did beleeue the Church 15. And here because you some tymes when you haue dronke to much of the cuppe of selfe loue do thinke that you entertaine the holie Ghost better then any of our religion haue done especiallie since you last were in heauen and read your name there in the booke of life I oppose spiritte vnto spiritte I oppose vnto you the knowne Saints of our Religion both late and ancient and obiect vnto you the Spiritte which was in them You haue there Saint Thomas of Aquine Sainct Bonauenture Saint Francis Sainct Dominicke Sainct Charles Boromeus Sainct Xauerius and others whose sanctitie God by miraculous workes and signes hath diuulged Among the auncient you haue the holie fathers and Martyres it were longe to repeate their names here You haue the martyrologe of Baronius there are thousands of them and the places where they liued consult his notes thereunto if you doubt of any And now I argue thus All true Christians in all ages euen from the Apostles tyme did euer rest in the iudgmēt of the Church as infallible beleeuīg what was in the Church before them vniuersallie beleeued ād condemning for Heretiques all those which before were vniuersallie condemned for such And this commō principle descēded through all ages so that whatsoeuer was vniuersallie taught by the pastors as matter of faith was receaued vniuersallie by the people and was approued by the generall iudgment of the Church of God and of her spiritte This I would haue you to consider well and marke againe that the communion of Gods elect was in this multitude which is further manifest first because this onelie is the true Church of God and they were all of the true Church Secondlie by those infinite miracles whereby God hath as it were with a seale confirmed their course of life and blessed end ād thirdlie because the communion of all holie fathers whose sanctitie you acknowledge and of infinite Martyrs putte to death for profession of Christianitie hath bene openlie with and in this Church 16. I prooue the same assistance eightlie by the testimonie of Sainct Paul Apostle and Master of the Gētiles a rule you knowe must Arg. 8 be right and a rule of faith free from errour This you are readie to admitte and to interprete of the Scripture the word of God I graunt is right but there are difficulties which it is which is all what is the sense of diuers places as all knowe by the controuersies now adaies Wee looke therfore for a liuing rule or iudge and certaine proponent of Gods word and meaning Such a rule the Apostle directeth vs vnto ā exteriour visible perpetuall rule to be followed by Christian people and this if it be proposed by God to be followed is infallible by his protection and assistance will you heare the Apostles words He Christ gaue some Apostles and some Prophets and other some Euangelists and other some pastors Ephes 4.11 12.13.14 and Doctors to the consummation of the Saincts to the worck of ministerie vnto the edifying of the body of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God into a perfect mā into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried aboute with euerie winde of doctrine in the wickednes of men to the circumuention of errour Marke in this chapter of S. Paule how many things are defined against you and your fellowes First the perpetuitie of the Church in that he saith God gaue some pastors and Doctors vntill wee all meete in the vnitie of faith Secondlie the perpetuall visibilitie of it in that these pastors are building all the tyme and that they are Apostles Pastors Doctors whose office is visible and doth manifest their persōs to the flocke thirdlie the infallibilitie of the Church is explicated by the end of the foresaid perpetuall ministerie which is that wee be not wauering Among those the Apostle speakes of you I hope include the predestinate who therfore you see depend vppon exteriour certain cōmon ād in a word Catholique propositiō of the faith a litle before you haue the vnitie of this bodie and of the Spiritte of it and after followes the varietie of functions in this one visible bodie of Iesus Christ including the elect as I haue noted before The words are Doing the truth in Charitie let vs in all things grow in him which is the head Christ 〈◊〉 15.16 of whome the whole bodie being compact and knit togeather by all iuncture of subministration according to the operation in the measure of euery member maketh the increase of the bodie vnto the edifying of it selfe in Charitie Reflect or all this and tell me whether in this Bodie be Gods elect or no whether it be visible or inuisible whether it be many bodies or one bodie and whether this body be the true Church of Christ wherof he is the head 17. But now let vs to our argument againe Sainct Paule teacheth in this Chapter that God hath prouided continuall visible meanes to keepe men from errour therfore these meanes
out of the Arg. 1 words of our Sauiour Iesus Christ who promised faithfullie to send the holy spiritte vnto the Church to assist it Ioh. 14. v. 15.16 16. Ch. v 13 I will aske my father aÌ„d he will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you foreuer the Spiritte of truth he shall teach you all truth Here the spiritte is promised to the Church foreuer to assist her to all truth what could be said plainer The like God before promised vnto the Church and called it his couenant Isa 59.21 to wit that the words which he putte into her mouth should neuer out of it And herevppon the Apostles beleeued that they had diuine assistance and affirmed their act and decree Acts 15.28 to be the act and decree of the holie Ghost as you reade in the Actes of the Apostles Stay here and consider well what you will do in this case if you deny the assistance you deny the word of God if you graunt it the cause is ours 23. That you may seeme to answeare you will say euer something and the more intricate it be the better it serues your turne Forsooth you graunt Assistance of the Spirit least you be seene directlie to contradict Scripture but you denie that the Church hath it The Church you saie may mistake the sense of Scripture and was mistaken many hundred yeeres together but the spirit directs you to to it your Apostle Luther and you haue hit it now at last Sillie men what are you what ground haue you for diuine assistance by what letters Patents from Gods priuate CouÌ„cell can you make this good Our Sauiour Iesus Christ hath promised the assistance of the Spiritte vnto the Church and this promise is recorded in the Scripture This holdes not you saie he hath bethought himselfe better and recalled it and made a later and an irreuocable firme promise vnto you If you be not impostors let vs see it if you showe it not as you cannot for God is God and it not chaÌ„ged you knowe what men are to thinke in such a case 24. But whie would you rob the Church of God of her legacie she doth inherite lawfullie this assistance it was bequeathed her by Iesus Christ she hath vndeniable writings to shewe for it she hath had possessioÌ„ of it longe agoe Sixteene hundred yeares she hath enioyed it It is to late for you now to commence your sute Goe first and prooue that you are the Catholique Church that the communion of Nations and of the auncient Fathers aÌ„d of the Martyrs and Saints of God haue bene with you Produce your Succession of Pastors continued euer from S. Peter bringe to light your Generall Councells which yet neuer sawe the light name the Nations you haue conuerted vnto the faith let vs heare of your miracles let vs see how the ould Prophecies all doe meete and are verified in your Church When these things are done and so well done that the world sees cleerlie your Church and not ours to be the Catholique Church then begin your sute and not now for your beggarie and want of title and imposture is yet beleeued or rather seene and felt of all the Christian world 25. If wee coÌ„sider only those whoÌ„ your selues do confesse to haue beene Heretickes heretofore you must confesse likewise that they were not Heires vnto the promises Iesus Christ made vnto his Church among which promises one was of perpetuall assistance For this promise or legacie was made and bequeathed by our Sauiour vnto his Church and confessed Heretiques were not the Church and flocke of Christ It rests therfore that you graunt that Church to inherite this legacie which is the true Church and not confessedly hereticall and false whether this Church be yours or ours This is euident Now further it is euident by the former bookes that the true Church is not yours but ours therfore the diuine assistance is in ours not in yours And this I would haue you to marke diligentlie turne downe the lâ—â—fâ— to the end I neede repeate it no more That is whensoeuer the question is about the Spiritte looke that you doe not challenge it vntill you haue prooued that yours is the Church for there is in holie Scripture no promise made of the Spiritte but vnto the Church And the like I doe saie to your fellowes either a parte or all together either moderne or more auncient if they will haue me beleeue that they haue the Spiritte of Iesus Christ let them prooue that they are the Church Neither doe I care whether the controuersie they pretend to determine by the spiritte be fundamentall or not fundamentall for I harken to no spiritte but to that in the Church therfore I say againe if they will haue me beleeue them let them prooue that they are the Church and bring such euidence as I haue demaunded heretofore which will neuer be as longe as the Scriptures and Histories are extant THE SECOND CHAPTER Wherin the last of the precedent arguments is vnfolded more at large 26. IT greeues you much that in the former Chapter I saie the diuine assistance was bequeathed vnto the Church and much you frette against me for it but cannot mend your selfe For that which I said is there prooued many waies It is a tedious thing to preach to those who shutte their eares when the word of God is deliuered who haue eies but will not see I must speake lowder yet and repeate the same ouer againe and againe that this sacred and transcendent truth of diuine assistaÌ„ce may by the operation of Gods grace enter into your sowle which errour possessing hath made deafe and dull to Gods word To runne ouer all againe would take more tyme then I can spare I will therfore inculcate the last argument onelie wherein are three texts of Scripture for assistance combined and connected all in one which I will here propose distinctlie In the first the diuine assistance is promised by God the father and I will produce the couenant In the second our Sauiour Iesus Christ doth bequeath it vnto the Church and I will bringe the words of his will registred by an Apostle In the third the confessed Church of Christ doth acknowledge the receipt of this assistance which is to be for euer hers To beginne with the first I argue thus 27. If the words of God which no doubt are the sacred truth for God speakes no lies be allwaies in the mouthes of the Pastors of Gods Church by vertue of Gods promise and prouidence this Church hath in this diuine Assistance But the words of God are allwayes in the mouthes of the pastors of Gods Church by vertue of Gods prouidence and promise therfore the Church hath in this diuine Assistance The proposition is cleere and includes proofe sufficient within it selfe because if Gods couenant and prouidence effect this thing wee speake of God effects it and is the cause of it The AssumptioÌ„ the prophet Esay
one S. Cyrill heere doth speake of the other S. August tract 96. in Ioan. To helpe the ruder to the vnderstanding of this difference in the knowledge of the same things Suppose a man were borne and bred in a caue vnder groūd and there taught that aboue there be heauens sunne and starrs And afterwards brought out in a cleere night to behold the beautie of the firmament with the heauens immensitie In the day to see the Sunne illustrating all the world with his light This later knowledge of these things is cleere and perfect if you compare it with the former which he before at his being vnder ground where he saw no greater light then a poore candle had of them So is the Churches knowledge heere Heere belowe she is instrusted that in God there are three persons the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost and makes an vnperfect obscure conceipt of it but when she getts vp thither she shall behold God cleerely as he is in himself And so all the rest of the Mysteries which now she doth beleeue 37. The fourth waie is to saie that the place is to be limited to those truthes which are necessarie for the commō people But this holds not for what shall become of the learned who shall compound differences in religion condemne Heresies and repaire the faults of Schisme which teare the Church in peeces if the Spirits assistance doth it not In vaine doe you limit the words of God you are a man you are not God you cannot rule him ād pare of what you please from his promise his words import all not onelie whatsoeuer is necessarie for common people but all whatsoeuer he hath reuealed they are extended as farre as the necessities of the Church do require Againe it is one thing to determine how far this assistance is affoorded to this or that Christian in particular which liues in a Catholique countrie and in peace another thing it is to define how farre it is affoorded vnto the whole bodie of the Church 38. The last waie is to saie that this promise was to be performed onelie in the inuisible Church by teaching them priuatelie This is false For the Church whereūto this promise was made was the visible Church and God made it to no other The Apostles were visible And how could it be otherwise whē their noise went ouer all the world The companie of Christians in communion with them were visible Their Successors the Pastors of the Church were visible Their office of preaching of ministring the Sacramentes and gouerning Gods people did manifest their persons to the flocke The guifte of tongues of interpretation of working miracles and the like made the men and so the Church visible The predestinate needed visible instruction Rom. 10.14 for how should they beleeue vnles they heare saith the Apostle in this case and how should they heare without a preacher and a preacher you knowe is visible you see him you heare him you can point at him Now preachers deliuer not infalliblie such doctrine as the predestinate are to beleeue without assistance and therefore for the predestinate peoples sake it was all together necessarie to assist the Church in visible actes in preaching in deliuering true doctrine which is to assist the visible Church In fine the office of the Apostles and Pastors whose actes are in teaching and directing others and consequentlie visible actes could not be rightlie performed without Assistance which you confesse and our Sauiour intending the perfomance of those actes that so his Church beīg called by his word deliuered with the mouthes of mē might be gathered out of all Nations did leaue them that is the Apostles and their Successors to this end diuine Assistance and said the Paraclete whom the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things Iohn 14. v 〈◊〉 16 〈◊〉 13. and suggest vnto you all he shall teach you all truth 39. The third place I am to inculcate for this Assistance containes the Testimonie of the vndeniable Christian Church acknowledging the receipt of it For if wee produce euidēce for the promise and this by couenāt and for the actuall sending and finallie for the receipt of this Assistance by such as confessedlie might doe it in the name of the whole Church the cause is wonne To proceed therfore to this part you will confesse that the Apostles were the true Church and that if they receaued this Assistance the Church receaued it and as they vnderstood the promise and beleeued it so wee are to vnderstād and to beleeue it Now it is most certaine that they receaued this Assistance and did not onelie beleeue that according to the promise of our Sauiour they had it infalliblie when they were to determine matters of Religion but they did further declare vnto Christians this Assistance and direction which they had ēioyed and did puhlishe it to be beleeued by the Church For the decree which after much dispute and inquisition they made in their generall meeting at Ierusalem they begin thus It hath seemed good to the holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. v. ◠affirming by these words plainlie and proposing allso to Christians to beleeue their publique act and decree to be the act and decree of the holie Ghost And if it were his allso then he with them made it assisting and directing them in the doing as our Sauiour had promised he should doe And herein the Apostles gaue example to their Successors to vnderstand our Sauiours promise so and to beleeue and doe so as they haue vnderstood it and beleeued and done The place is cleere The thing is vndeniable 40. As these Masters of Christianitie had vnderstood beleeued done assuring themselues and others of diuine assistance in their common definition and decree by reason of our Sauiours promise without any more adoe he being God and therfore meaning as he said and as good as his promise so did their successors vnderstand beleeue and doe in regard the promise was made foreuer And therfore they allso beleeued and assured others of diuine assistance in their common definition and decree by reason of the same promise This the pastors assembled in generall Councells haue done euer since and the Christian people in communion with these Councells haue beleeued it Those Christians which liued in the first age did beleeue that the Apostles had by vertue of our Sauiours promise diuine assistāce to propose and spred the Gospell and to teach rightlie the word of God and that they were therfore to be beleeued in all which by generall consent they did propose or wherein they did all agree so that the Predestinate ād all others might securelie beleeue as they taught and goe on towards heauen that way which they pointed out The Church in the second age did beleeue that the Church in the first age had the Assistance of the diuine spirit by vertue of the promise of Iesus Christ and therevppon beleeued allso that
they might securelie beleeue what the first age by generall consent had taught The Church in the third age did beleeue the same of the Church in the first and second ages and thus euer succeeding worlds of people did beleeue of the Church in all ages before their tyme. Thus it hath bene beleeued Thus hath the possession of the diuine legacie receaued at first by vndeniable heires the Apostles bene kept by the Church these sixteene hundred yeares 46. In this Church haue beene infinite people pastors innumerable great deuines graue Fathers the Reuerēce of Antiquitie ād Flower of learning In it haue bene all the true Martyrs that euer suffered for Iesus Christ all the contemplatiues all the Saincts and predestinate all the Apostles all holie people that haue bene since the sōne of God came downe into the world to redeeme and instruct man And the spirit of all these condemnes you ād your Spirit as being opposite to the Spirit of the pastors of Gods Church to the Spirit of auncient fathers to the Spirit of Gods elect to the Spirit of Apostles and Euangelists who beleeued all that the Church whereof they were had the Assistance of Gods holie Spirit 42. Will you see your aduersaries all at once men staie not longe in this world some die more are borne so that mankind like a flood runnes on and euerie one is a part a drop in this flood The vnderstanding onelie can staie in it selfe and make all at once stand before it Assemble therfore in your vnderstanding the Catholique Church of all former ages and looke then on the companie and see them all against your selfe Behold a Councell for wee haue abstracted these men the Church I meane from tyme and place diffusing it in which consideration the vnion of the parts in beleefe and their communion doth remaine therefore I saie againe behold a Coūcell Oecumenicall the most ample the most learned the most reuerend that euer was Wherein are all the Bisshops of Asia Africke and Europe before Luther I except only confessed Heretiques All the auncient Fathers all the great Deuines all the Pastors that haue bene in the space of fifteene hundred yeares confessed Heretiques excepted all the Martyrs of Iesus Christ all the Saincts and Predestinate all the Apostles all the Euangelists and people infinite In the middest of this great Councell is the holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth mouing all as he pleaseth and by his operations keeping the truth manifest And the President of it is Iesus Christ the naturall Sonne of God God and man All these condemne your doctrine your Spirit is against the Spirit of all these and therefore by Christian people to be condemned and abhorred 43. I am no Rhetoritian I doe not amplifie I haue prooued all that I doe saie And here end this Chapter wishing you to consider well what I haue said hetherto for diuine assistance And if you vnderstand it well as God graunt you may you will see that it cannot be denied without contempt of all the Christian world without contradicting the Spirit of the predestinate without opposition to knowne Saincts in the matter of diuine religion without giuing the lie to the Apostles Euangelists and prophets and finallie without open iniurie to the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost who haue each their peculiar interest in the matter the Sōne in intreating the Father in sending and the holie Ghost in comming Wherby this transcendent Principle of diuine assistāce doth relie peculiarlie vppon the whole Trinitie which is the prime Veritie and origen of created vnderstanding THE THIRD CHAPTER That the Argument is not answeared by the distinction of fundamentall and not fundamentall 44. THat you may haue some thing to say and conceale your vnsufficiēcie from such as are not Schollers you put in here a distinction of fundamentall and not fundamētall points and thinke to stoppe our mouthes with one peece of the distinction Some of your fellowes expresse themselues in other termes but in sense you meete Your answeare is that the Church hath infallible assistāce to fundamentall points not to others Concerning the fundamentall points you are not yet agreed most commonly you thinke that they are the chiefe poīts in the three Creeds And agree all that they are very fewe Some will haue fower others six others eight suppose with the most that they be twelue According to your distinction the Spirit doth assist the Church infalliblie to these points and hath done so euer It remaines now that I adde a word or two touching the rest 45. I am therefore to proue a further assistance of the Spiritte then to sixe or twelue pointes which you call fundamentall and first my Argumentes which I made in the former Chapters are not answeared by your distinction but proue stronglie that Gods assistance is to all and your answeare which makes a wide exception whereas the Scripture hath none at all is first without groūd in the Scripture You should haue showne your distinction there if you had expected beleefe for men may not presume to make exceptions at their pleasure in the generall rule of God Secondlie it leaues the world without satisfaction in the matter of controuersies for you leaue noe meanes at all to make an end of the For example to end the controuersies betwixt vs and you you leaue noe meanes at all Not the assistance of Gods Spiritte for you saie they are in matters not fundamentall and that our Church in fundamentalls neuer erred Nor the witte of man for all men if not assisted may erre in diuine matters Nor the testimonie and iudgment of Antiquitie for if they were certaine of these matters it was either by their owne Wittes and these without Gods assistance might erre or it was by the assistance of the Spiritte to these pointes which is agaīst the doctrine of your distinction Nor is there any other way found either in the dispositiō of Gods Prouidence for this is the thing would ouerthrowe your distinction or in the witte of man 46. Thirdlie this doctrine of yours is against the perfection of our Sauiours prouidence for all powerfull and wise persons establishing a perpetuall common wealth take order for the peace and vnitie of it since diuision is the ruine of the publique weale And our Sauiour as you haue heard before hath instituted a spirituall common wealth to last foreuer wherefore if he hath not ordained meanes for the peace and vnitie of it his prouidence hath ben deficient and this commō wealth of his with infinite diuisions arising about the most obscure rule or lawe which he hath left will be torne into peeces and so perish and not be perpetuall as he intended it should be Againe diuisions and Schismes are not onelie in points by you esteemed fundamētall as appeareth cleerelie by your schisme And Gods rule or written word containes not only things fundamentall in that sense as you may see in the Scripture wherein are other points of doctrine and
difference is not by meanes of the letter Reflect well on all this when you answeare the first booke nor of any common good Spiritt for that would not contradict it selfe as they do each other this difference cannot be taken but from the sense imaginatioÌ„ aÌ„d will of each partie and therefore each partie must be defined by his owne wit or by all his opinions in matter of faith 75. And here I answeare to your common replie of the Schoolemens disagreement in Schoole-questioÌ„s for notwithstaÌ„ding the varietie of opinioÌ„s in matters not defined by the Church before or in their tyme all Schoolemen that were Catholiques did agree in faith and all did beleeue the same according as I haue said before of other men Each of them tooke the iudgment of the Church for infallible therein beleeuing all whatsoeuer she either had or hereafter would determine This did euerie Schoole man euerie Catholique Deuine euerie Father 76. This way S. Augustine doth excuse S. Cyprian in the matter of rebaptization Before the consent of the whole Church by the decree of a plenarie or generall Councell S. Aug li. 1. de Bapt cont Don. c. 18. had determined what was to be embraced of all in that controuersie of rebaptizing the recoÌ„ciled S. CypriaÌ„ with allmost fowerscore of his fellow African Bysshops did thinke that euerie one who was baptized out of the Catholique coÌ„munion ought to be baptized againe when he had reconciled himselfe to the Church As yet there had bene no generall CouÌ„cell assembled in that behalfe but the world was held in by the strength of custome l. 2 c. 9. and this custome onelie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bringe in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst among many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not onelie found out but allso brought to the autoritie and strenght of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeede but yet before I was borne A precedeÌ„t plenarie may be ameÌ„ded by a subsequent plenarie in matters oâ— fact And in faith a generall not approued by a generall approued Councell In the same place by occasion of the Councells by S. Cyprian and his predecessors made in Africke he saith that particular Councells must yeld to generall and that the whole is deseruedlie preferd before the part or particulars More ouer in the same booke a little before he prooues out of S. Cyprians words that if S. Cyprian had knowne of such a definition he would haue corrected his opinion and then shewes how much he doth relie on it himselfe Neither durst wee affirme any such thinge if wee were not well grounded vppon the most vniforme authoritie of the vniuersall Church l. 2. c. 4. vnto which vndoubtedlie S. Cyprian allso would haue yeelded if in his tyme the truth of this question had bene cleered and declared S. Augustines Spâ—rit and by a generall CouÌ„cell establisshed And of the same againe he hath an excellent discourse in the fift booke where amonge other things he saith that he pleaseth not the Saint if he seeke to preferre his wit and eloquence and store of learning before the holie Councell of all Nations â— 5. e. 17. to which doubtles he was present by vnitie of Spirit and if I with the whole world do iudge more truelie â—bid I do not preferre my hart before him neither is he in that he iudged otherwise deuided from the whole world â—bid I preferre not my opinion before his but the iudgmeÌ„t of the holy Catholique Church â— Cuius vniâ—ersitas ipâ— non fuit â—d in eius â—niuersitaâ— permanâ—t all which he was not but remained in it This is inough for my purpose and in the same principles of S. Augustine you see now that I can answeare any obiection that you can bringe out of the dissention of ancient or moderne writers or rather if you reflect on it well you will be able to answeare it all your selfe 77. This passage hath made me call to minde other speaches of the Fathers not farre from this purpose whereof I thinke it not amisse to put some downe for your better meditation if you will be pleased peraduenture to thinke more seriouslie on their words then you haue done hetherto on mine The truth of the scripture is helde of vs in this matter when wee doe that which pleaseth the whole Church Aug. l. 1. â—nt Cres â—3 the which the authoritie of the scriptures doth commend that because the holy Scriptures cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgment of the Church which the holie scripture without any ambiguitie doth demonstrate Vincent lirin conâ— Haeres c. 2â— It is necessarie by reason of the windings of vnconstant errour that the line of propheticall aÌ„d Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiastical and Catholique sense And in the Catholique Church likewise wee must haue a greate care that wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where euer and by all c. 3. for this is truelie aÌ„d properlie Catholique as the power and reason of the word or name doth import which truelie doth coÌ„prehend all vniuersallie And this is so done in fine if wee followe vniuersalitie antiquitie consent vniuersalitie wee followe if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledge and Antiquitie if wee do not in any sort leaue those senses which it is manifest that our Fathers and holie elders haue celebrated and commended and consent allso if wee followe the definitions ad decrees of all or neere all the Priests and Masters in Antiquitie 78. A protestant would thinke me vnreasonable if I should demand and exact all these conditions in euery protestant proposition before I beleeue it yet I will beleeue none of their doctrine vnles it be thus prooued nor all their Religion vnles it be thus prooued all which is as much to say as that by Gods grace I will neuer beleeue it Wee haue possessioÌ„ the spirit is in our Church aÌ„d this father was of it aÌ„d doth acknowledge it of greater authoritie of more infallibilitie then himselfe aÌ„d his rules were ruled by it but I goe on In the Antiquitie of the Church two things are constantlie and with greate care to be obserued Idem c. 41 to both which all they that will not become Heretiques must steed fastlie adhere The first is whatsoeuer is auncientlie decreed by all the Priests of the Catholique Church in a generall Councell secondlie if any newe question doth arise concerning which there is no such decree to be founde then must recourse be made to the iudgment of the holie Fathers I say of those onelie who euery one in their owne tyme were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith And whatsoeuer they are
founde to hold with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple aÌ„d doubt must be the true and Catholique doctrine of the Church Whosoeuer beleeue that Christ came in our flesh and that he arose from death to life in the same flesh in which he was borne and suffered S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 4. and that he is the sonne of God God with God and one with the Father and the one vnchangeable word of the Father by which all things are made but do so disagree with his body which is the Church that they hold not communion with the whole as farre as euer it is spred about the world but are found separate in some part or corner it is manifest that they are not in the Catholique Church Prosp de promiss praedic Dei par 4. c. 5. The Apostles Peeter and Paul deliuering in the cittie of Rome to posterity the doctrine of our Lord peaceable and one haue consecrated the Church of the Gentiles with their blood and memories according to the passioÌ„ of our Lord. A ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„municating with this generall Church is a Catholique S. Cypri de Vnit. Eccl. He that is separated froÌ„ it is an Heretique There is one heade aÌ„d one origeÌ„ aÌ„d one mother by the issue of her fecuÌ„ditie copious by her increase wee are borne wee are nourished with her milke with her spirit wee are animated The Spouse of Christ cannot be defiled with adultery shee is pure and honest She knoweth one house and with chast bashfullnes keepeth the sanctity of one bed This Church preserueth vs in God this aduanceth to the kingdome the children she hath brought foorth VVhosoeuer deuided from this Church cleaueth to the adultresse he is separated from the promises of the Church He cannot haue God his Father who hath not the Church to his mother In the Church S. Iren. l. 9 adu Haereâ— c. 40. God hath constituted Apostles Prophets Doctors and all the rest of the operation of the Spirit of which those are not partakers who repaire not vnto the Church VVhere the Church is THERE IS THE SPIRIT of God and where the Spirit of God is there is the Church and all grace Idem l. â— c. 4â— VVee must obay those Priests that are in the Church those that haue Succession from the Apostles who tegeather with Episcopall power haue according to the good pleasure of the Father receaued the certaine guift of truth And all the rest who depart from the originall Succession wheresoeuer they be assembled to haue suspected either as Heretiques or Schismatiques or Hypocrites â—actant â— 4. 〈◊〉 â—nstitut c. â—lt and all these doe fall from the truth It is onely the Catholique Church that hath the true worship and seruice of God This is the wellspring of truth the dwelling place of faith the temple of God into which whosoeuer entreth not and from which whosoeuer departeth is without all hope of life 〈◊〉 Aug. de â—de ad â—et c. 39. and eternall Saluation Hold for most certaine and vndoubted that no Heretique nor Schismatique though baptized in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost though he giue almes neuer so largely yea though he shed his blood for the name of Christ can possiblie be saued vnles he be reconciled vnto the Catholique Church 70. I omit many other graue speaches of holie Fathers to this effect of consenting with the Church in faith and submitting our iudgment thereunto And of S. Augustine particularlie whom I do alleage more willinglie because you preteÌ„d to honour him as where he saith for his part he would not beleeue the Gospell 〈◊〉 Aug. coÌ„t Ep. fund c. â— vnles the authoritie of the Church moued him That he was held in the Church by the consent of people â— c. 4. and Nations by an authoritie begotten with miracles nourished with hope increased by antiquitie And that it is a point of most insolent madnes to dispute whether that be to be obserued which is frequented by the whole Church through the world Ep. 118. c. â— Moreouer what S. Augustine said of S. Cyprian he might haue said of any other father to wit that he would haue yelded to the authority of the Church Neither would the Fathers hold communion with any who did oppose themselues to the definitions of generall Councells or to the doctrine of the Church but held them for Heretiques 81. And thus much for this point wherein I haue not alleaged the foresaid authorities to moue you for I knowe that in your * Vide I. Rain Concl. 2. fine conscience you will not yeeld to the Fathers neither a part nor all together in Generall Councell nor stoope to their Spirit nor beleeue their Creede But I haue done it to shewe you that I haue learned of them the doctrine which I tould you and that by their exaÌ„ple I do submit my vnderstaÌ„ding to the Church in all coÌ„trouersies and securelie rest in her iudgmeÌ„t For she with infinite eies doth allwayes diligentlie looke on Gods word aÌ„d with infinite care aÌ„d industrie attends vnto the truth Good wits though learned may mistake each scholler is not a SaiÌ„t the guifts of the Spirit are deuided amoÌ„g meÌ„ But all the treasure of the spirit all the Saints aÌ„d Predestinate the highest Authoritie aÌ„d all meanes possible for mortall men to learne the truth are in the Church There the Angells of the Gospell deliuer the will of the diuine Maiestie there the Secretaries of heauen do register Gods words and there Iesus Christ our Master doth teach and bringe vp his Elect and prepare them for his high Schoole of deuinitie wherein the Cherubins and Seraphins haue their order From * You say that wee obtrude vnto you doctrine for diuine which is not such For the nouice in Controuersie at some parts of the Bible Inuocation of Saincts Purgatorie wee denie that wee propose any thing for diuine and reuealed which is not indeede diuine and reuealed This is therefore a Controuersie betwixt vs. What way is there to know the truth in this controuersie The Spirit where In the Church Againe you say wee interprete the Scriptures wrong wee denie it what Iudge The spiritte of truth where In the Schoole of Iesus Christ VVhich is this Schoole The Church VVhich is the Church That which is in communion with Vrbanus 8. Reflect well on this discourse and make the like on all occasioÌ„s in any CoÌ„trouersie of faith whatsoeuer Is it a controuersie you speake of or is it agreed on both sides If a Controuersie and in Religion the truth may be knowne The question then comes Who it to Iudge And the Answer is The spirit In Whom in The Church But you will aske why must wee stand to the Iudgment of the Spirit in the Church rather then to the iudgment of the Spirit in N. N. as in Iohn Caluin for example I answere because wee knowe
in the Primitiue Church neither be they all saincts at this day Many are called fewe chosen Good ād bad are mingled here The spouse is blacke ād faire In the Churches decrees there is no errour against faith no rule against manners Her rule is irreprehensible being the rule of Christianitie And when any thing is amisse in mens cariage or behauiour towards God or man she doth admonish and punish as occasion requires Hence haue come all those decrees of reformation made in Councells generall and particular which you haue seene more then once In an infinite number to haue some disorders is incident and wee were foretould that scandalls should be Mat. 18. But consider further that this Church hath an infinite cōpanie of holie men likewise and that all which arriue to glorie shall haue liued in this Church Apoc. 7. and those of all tribes tongues and Nations For this very Church though not according to all the materiall parts shall triumphe as I haue said in an other place and in state of triumphe shall be all faire and all ouer without spot she shall be without actuall or originall or veniall sinne when she comes with open eies to looke the prime veritie in the face and to embrace the diuine goodnes with all the latitude of her soule THE SIXT CHAPTER Of the Protestant multiplication of Churches by visible and inuisible 68. IN this place before I conclude I haue a word more to say about your distinction of visible and inuisible I thought once to make it a Chapter in the first booke one of your greate leaps when you are pursued ending in it From Luthers Schoole you skip into Waldoes from thence you thrust your selues on vs from vs to the Church primitiue and from the primitiue Church you get quite out of the eies of the whole world and betake your selues to Inuisibilitie In regard I there pursued you I thought I say to speake allso of the distinction there But the thinge will be more easie now because in many places as occasions were offered I haue discoused of the * He that desires to see more of the Visibilitie of the Church shall find it exactly handled and the Protestant euasions all cleerely refuted by L. my of Chalc. in his booke de auctorae essentia Protestantica Ecclesia l. 2. c. 6. seqq Visibilitie of Gods Church The Church of Gods is one and visible as the Scripture doth witnes Yet you with two words visible and inuisible haue made a distinction to rend it into two and do maintaine stoutlie that God hath two Churches one inuisible consisting of predestinate persons onelie The other visible which doth exteriorlie professe the faith 99. The whole companie of the faith full may be deuided into two parts by God allmightie the one part is predestinate the other part is the companie of those which are not predestinate By this the whole is sufficientlie deuided for euerie man in the companie belongs to one part or member of the diuision and no man belongs to both For you cannot affirme two contradictories of the same as to say Peeter is predestinated and Peeter is not predestinated This being so I demaund now which of these companies is visible and which inuisible And what makes the one to be so rather then the other If predestination make men inuisible whie doth not reprobation make men inuisible since reprobation is a secret as hard to knowe If profession of the faith make the reprobate visible whie can not profession make the predestinate men visible And if these companies be together mingled why are they not both visible or both inuisible or rather whie is not the whole companie visible by reason of the profession and communion though Gods disposition towards this and that man in particular be inuisible and secret 100. Wee beleeue that the whole companie of Catholiques is the Church as I haue declared larglie heretofore Wee beleeue that the predestinate are in this companie that they die all of them in the communion of the Church and that here they professe their faith This I will declare brieflie and then I will be so bould as to demand some questions touching your inuisible congregatiō for looke on it I may not because it is not to be seene 101. First therefore if the thing be well considered it is manifest that the predestinate doe professe their faith and thereby do manifest themselues to be the seruants of Iesus Christ and this allso our Sauiour Christ requireth of his seruants Matth. 10.32.33 euery one that shall confesse me before men I allso will confesse him before my father but he that shall denie me before men I will denie him before my father which is in heauen Euerie one that confesseth me before men the sonne of man allso will confesse him before the Angells of God Luke 12. v. 8.9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the Angells of God Herevpon the Martyrs of Iesus Christ which haue bene at all tymes and whereof all Christian Nations haue yeelded store haue openlie in the face of persecution made profession of their faith and thereby they were visible and being Martyrs were allso members of the predestinated Church they were predestinate The predestinate therefore and the visible professors of the faith may be in one and the same Church yea the same man may be predestinate and allso visiblie professe the faith 102. Secondlie it is manifest that the Apostles were visible professors of the faith and therefore members of the visible Church of God and they were allso predestinate and therefore mēbers of the predestinate Church The same men therefore may be visible and predestinate The same Church may be visible and predestinate and consequentlie visibilitie and predestinatiō deuide not the Church into two Churches As I said of the Apostles and Martyrs so I say of the holie Doctors of the Church they did preach and teach visiblie they were knowne farre and neere and were ptedestinate allso whereby it is manifest that the predestinate did professe their faith the same faith with other Catholiques with others in their communion and were visible 103. Thirdlie the Apostolique Church is visible it includes essentiallie publique persons As Apostles and their Successors Apostolicall men for conuersion of Nations Bisshops Pastors Doctors as you knowe by Scripture Now these publike persons are manifestlie visible Pastors to their flocke Bisshops to their Diocese Apostles and Apostolicall men to the Nations they conuert The Apostolicall Chutch therefore is visible And you knowe further that the holie Catholique and Apostolicall Church are one and the same for so it is in the Creede I beleeue one holie Catholique and Apostolicall Church Symb. Cōstant and this Creede you professe that you beleeue ād you put it allso amonge the fundamentalls of your faith The Catholik therefore and holy Church is visible 104. Fourthlie if the Church be the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ and
this bodie one whereof visible men are members and Predestinate allso members of the same then are there not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible Now it is most certaine by the testimonie of holie Scripture that the Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ ād that this mysticall bodie is but one wherein are visible and predestinated persons therefore there are not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible two bodies one visible the other inuisible but all appertaine to one bodie and one Church I confirme this out of S. Paul who in his Epistle the Ephesians saith that God the Father hath made Christ the heade ouer all the Church which is his bodie Ephes 1. v 22.23 Ch. 4. v. 13. In this Church the Apostle saith Christ put Apostles pastors c. till wee all meete into the vnitie of faith which is till the end of the world Chap. 2.19 Ch. 1. v. 13. and in the same Church are the citizens of the Saincts the domesticalls of God Those which are signed with the holie Ghost of promise which is the pledge of our inheritance in fine the predestinate and S. Paul himselfe was in this Church This one bodie therefore had these two attributs to wit it was visible for hauing in it intrinsecallie and for euer publike persons Pastors Doctors it might thereby be seene and heard and it had in it the predestinate which you call inuisible men whence it followes that visible and inuisible in that sense leaue it still as it was one bodie 105. Fiftlie our greate Pastors fould is one not two as your distinction makes it He hath one fould and that is visible For the Church of God is visible as I haue manifestlie declared before and to this fould his predestinate are all brought out of what Nation out of what part of the world soeuer Other sheepe I haue that are not of this fold a fould wherein the Apostles were Iohn 10.16 men visible to the whole world and wherein their successors are men allso visible thē allso I must bringe ād they shall heare my voice and there shall be made one fould and one Pastor Heere by the testimonie of Iesus Christ the fould the Church is one away then with your distinction beleeue one as wee doe which is visible in which the predestinate people are 106. And indeede where should one looke for our Sauiours Schollers but in his Schoole where should wee looke for Gods domesticalls but in his howse where should wee looke for his members but in his body where should wee looke for holie people for predestinate for Saincts but in the Church And therefore hauing demonstrated before which is the Church this labour might haue bene spared For as I answeared of the Spirit that you should not challenge him till you had prooued that yours was the Church a taske vnpossible so now I may answeare of holie people of predestinate of Saints that you do not callenge any till you haue prooued which you will not doe as longe as God is God that yours is the Church 107. It is verily a ridiculous thing to see what Churches you frame in your imagination One full of words euer preaching all mouth but without Spirit without hart without sowle The other full of the Protestant Spirit but silent and ashamed of her owne doctrine in so much that for a thousand yeeres together she was dombe a church without a mouth The mouth and hart you knowe are both parts of one man the hart is within and is not seene but by the mouth in the mouth it doth shewe it self in what forme it pleaseth to affect The Church too hath hart and mouth hart to beleeue to loue God and mouth to praise inuoake and professe him These make not two Churches they are two parts of one God hath promised these two to one and the same Church his spirit is allwayes in her hart and his words allwayes in her mouth I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other Paraclete Io 14 v. 15 16.17 that he may abide which you for euer the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not nor knoweth him But you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you Thus our Sauiour to his Apostles publike ād visible persons and in them to the visible Church Isay 59.21 Rom. 10. v. 9.10 My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c for euer If thou confesse with thy mouth our Lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him vp from the deade thou shalt be saued for with the hart wee beleeue vnto iustice but with the mouth confession is made to Saluation Gods Church therefore hath both hart and mouth in her hart she hath Gods Spirit in her mouth his word and these are not two Churches but one Church 108. Neither doth predestination make it inuisible as childishly you imagine The predestinatiō it selfe indeede is inuisible vnto vs it is Gods purpose and decree and therefore is in God as mans purposes are in the mind of man and those purposes euen in men are secret and hidden till the men reueale them But the predestinated as I said before are as visible as other men So was S. Peeter S. Paul and the rest of the Apostles the Martyres of Iesus Christ were visible otherwise how could they haue bene tortured as they were The Doctors were visible S. Ierome and S. Augustine were knowne farre and neere ād to come neerer to our tyme S. Francis S. Thomas of Aquin S. Bonauenture S. Charles Boromeus were visible yet predestinate whereby it is most euident that predestination doth not make men inuisible they may be publike persons and knowne to all the world and predestinate allso And so may the Church be both predestinate and visible too And is so though euery man in the Church be not predestinate some are there more then number as in a mans body there are some parts superfluous which will not be resumed in the resurrection as I said in the former booke and these parts are like the rest they communicate with the rest they beleeue as the rest but they doe not perseuer as the rest Now which those are that will perseuere finallie which will not God hath reserued as a secret vnto himselfe He hath not as yet made any secretarie coppie out of the booke of life The sanctitie of some in all tymes he makes knowne for the example and encouragmēt and confirmation of others by such signes as he pleaseth such as you reade in the liues of Saincts penned by saincts allso by S. Athanasius S. Ierome S. Augustine S. Gregorie of Nice S. Gregorie the greate S. Bede S. Bernard S. Bonauenture and others who in their workes haue related diuers wōderfull things of holie men and this is a further argument
of their visibilitie But God as I said hath not yet permitted the booke of life to be coppied out and diuulged Iohn 4.23 1. Io. 2.27 109. You obiect first that true worshippers adore in Spirit and truth and vnction teacheth all This is true But those worshippers those ānointed are in the Church they are a part ād the chiefest part of the visible communitie whereof I haue spoken in the second booke they are in the visible fold of Christ Were the Apostles and the rest of their Religion the true Church or no were they was that Bodie that communitie visible or inuisible their sermons were not they heard were not their writings seene went not their sound ouer all the world why then they were visible As for the vnctiō it teacheth the Catholique Church it teacheth men to giue assent to such things as the Apostles then did and their Successors now doe propose They may preach and be heard allso but without vnction the people will not beleeue 1. Cor. 3. Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giueth the increase In the same Catholique Church are those adorers in Spirit and in the middest of it the sanctification of God is foreuer The Apostles did they adore in Spirit or no if they did whie may not a visible Church do so if they did not who will beleeue that you do 110. Secondlie you obiect that there are none in the Church but predestinate If you speake of the Church triumphant you say true if you speake of the militant Church it is not so for all those that for a tyme adhere vnto this bodie and are parts of it do not finallie perseuere some are multiplied aboue number and beleeue a while but reuolt and fall of before they die The Church militant is the companie of beleeuers in communion with S. Peeter and his See It is the companie of Catholiques And Catholiques some are in charitie and in the grace of God and are saued some die in mortall sinne some loose their faith at last 1. Tim 1. In the primitiue Church some made shipwracke of their faith as Hymeneus and Alexander saith the Apostle Some do beleeue for a tyme said our B. Sauiour Luk. 8.1 and in tyme of tēptation do reuolt And the Spirit manifestlie saith that in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the faith attending to the Spiritts of errour 1. Tim. 4 Matth. 2 14. Many are called but fewe chosen There are some with wedding garments and some without some wise virgins some foolish some corne some chaffe some vessells of honour some of dishonour some good some bad some predestinate some reprobate in the Church The predestinate will perseuer the rest will not 111. I come now to the second part of this Chapter wherein I am to loosesome tyme in asking a question or two about your dombe-preaching Church about the Saincts of your election about those people which were in all tymes but neuer before Luther and in all Nations before his tyme but no wherein the world And I demand first whether all the rest were like you or no if they were why then were they inuisible You say you are predestinate and yet you are visible notwithstanding your predestination and a member of that Church whie then might not the other men be visible allso euerie one of thē and the whole visible 112. I demaund secondlie whether you do knowe the rest of your Church the rest of your predestinate breethren or whether you knowe none of that Church but your selfe onely ād whether euery one in that Church knowe himselfe onelie and no more If you do not knowe any of them what Societie cā you haue among you what gouerment what forme of a Church If you do knowe any I desire to heare how wee finde not your names in the Scripture the booke of life is not printed with the Gospell 2. Tim. 2.19 Iohn 10.14 wee reade there that our Lord knowes who be his that our greate Pastor knowes his sheepe That you can do it that you can number all his sheepe that you can point them out wee reade not I pray you howe come you to knowe the secret is it by exterior profession that serues not they may dissemble and which is worse for you none professed your religion for 900 yeeres togeather and therefore by profession you knowe none in all that tyme. Neither would an vnfained profession haue serued the turne for euerie one that persuades himselfe that he beleeues is not constant in the faith nor predestinate What then be the certaine markes whereby you knowe your inuisible brethrē that wee may knowe them too or do you not indeed knowe them Remember what hath ben said in the first booke if you knowe them let vs heare the markes the markes of a predestinated Protestant and bringe vs one example any tyme for 900. yeeres before Luther of such a man an example out of questiō a manifest example If you do not knowe them you cannot conferre with them in your difficulties you cannot helpe them in their necessities you cannot meete in Councell as the Apostles and Pastors did in the primitiue Church you cannot haue the face nor the gouerment of a Church 133. I must examine further by your leaue In your Catholique Church of predestinate is there order or confusion are there Pastors ād Doctors and Bysshops or no Bysshops no Pastors no Doctors is there a Hierarchie or not are the preachers and Superintendents seene and heard or how are the things dōne The reason of my demand or doubt is because this Catholique Church of yours is inuisible and therefore it seemes that no man can see the Preacher otherwise many in the companie might see him if not all and so he were visible He allso might see them he preached vnto and so they were visible too and consequentlie the whole companie and the whole Church were visible not inuisible 114. It might seeme by your talke that this holie Congregation of yours hath greate eares and no eies for if they had eies they might then see the Ministers that instructe them they might see their Superintendents Or if they can heare and not see these Ministers their eares reach a greate deale further then their eies But this will not content me neither if yo graunt it for that which may be heard makes a noise and by the noise discouers it selfe if therefore your predestinated Preachers haue made a noise in the world the Christians or Papists liuing with them should haue heard it though they could not see those inuisible men and this at least would be found on record as other wonders are to wit That in all Christian countries there was a Protestant noise ād sermons euerie where in euerie Nation but no preacher seene this would haue bene found in the Chronicles of all countries and some would haue bene so curiouse as to haue noted the points of the Sermons and set downe the doctrine But
England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her
noe Bishop in the Church euer yet was estemed or did pretende to be aboue the Roman Bishop since therefore S. Peeter was putte in charge of the flocke of Christ ād made Pastor of the Church ād since this office of generall Pastor doth remaine it followes that the Bishop of Rome is ād still was he because he is and euer was confessedlie the first Bishop in the Church Secondlie the Pope of Rome by your confession hath exercised the Office of Generall Pastor of the Church these thousād yeares ād by the Coūcells the same is cleere neither was there any other all this tyme who did exercise or take on him that Office not the Bisshop of Antioch nor of Constantinople for these Bisshops and the most ancient Councells as the Nicene Constantinopolitan and others did acknowledge Rome before those Sees Neither was the See without a Successor all this tyme as I haue shewed before because the Pastor and Foundation is necessarie to the Flocke and Building therefore the Roman was and is he 14. Thirdly the fathers of the aūciēt Church as S. Augustine sainct Ierom sainct Cyprian sainct Ireneus and others affirme cleerelie that the Roman Bisshop is sainct Peeters Successor S. Hieron ad Damas S. Aug. ep 162. S Cypr. ep 55. Optatus cont Donat l. 2. S. Iren. l. 3. c. 3. Tenet ista sancta sede gubernacula regendarum cunct orbis Ecclesiarum Theod. ep ad Ren p◠Ro. S. Leo ep 84. Sainct Ierom calles that See S. Peeters Chaire adding that the Church is built on that rocke sainct Augustine putts a Catalogue of the Bisshops there first Peeter then Linus c. and saith that the Principallitie of the Apostolicall Chaire hath euer flourished in the Church of Rome sainct Cyprian calles it allso sainct Peeters Chaire and the principall Church whence Priestlie vnitie hath come The like hath Optatus sainct Ireneus doth adde that for the more powerfull principalitie of that church it is necessarie that all Churches haue recourse vnto it That holie seate saith Theodorette holds the sterne of gouerning the Churches of all the world sainct Leo knewe this in practise but heare his words It is by great order prouided that all should not claime all things to themselues but in euery Prouince should be some who should haue the prime sentēce amonge the bretheren and againe others placed in greater Citties should vndergoe greater care by whom the care of the Vniuersall Church should come to the one seate of sainct Peeter Fourthlie this is the iudgment of the Church acknowledging in the Roman Bisshop authoritie and power to call to moderate and to approoue generall Councells and it is declared in the great Lateran Councell that the Roman Church hath by Gods disposition the principalitie of ordinarie power ouer all the Churches Conc. Lat. sub Innoc. 3. c. 5. And finallie both East and West haue defined it in the Councell of Florence Cōc Flor. defin Wee define say the Fathers there that the holie Apostolique See and Bisshop of Rome hath the Primacie ouer the whole world and that the Roman Bisshop is the Successor of Blessed Peeter Prince of the Apostles and the true Vicar of Christ and heade of the whole Church and Father and master of all Christians and that vnto him in S. Peeter is giuen by our Lord Iesus Christ full power to feede rule and gouerne the vniuersall Church The same both Armenian Aethiopiā Vide Cocc ◠1. l. 7. art 4. 5. 6. 7 8. Russite and Assiriā Christiās haue acknowledged So that for this Primacie of the See Apostolique wee haue the Fathers Testimonie Theologicall Arguments Definitions of Generall Councells and the Testimonie of the Spirit in them the worlds consent and Gods word THE THIRD CHAPTER The Bishop of Rome President in Generall Councells 15. YOur next pretense is that the Pope hath no title to be President in generall Councells or to call or approoue them though he hath practised these things now of late Before I answere to this argument to shewe more cleerelie wherein the force of it doth lie you are with me to obserue two things the first is that there are two kinds of calling a Councell One is Eclesiasticall in way and forme of ordination the other is Temporall in way of execution The Question is of the former which is prīcipall ād wee are in it to see whether any man in the world hath such authoritie to call a Councell so as the Bishops are in regard of that calling bound to come The second obseruation is that one may haue the place of President in his owne name or in the name and place of another to whom principallie it belongeth and this Presidencie may be either to some temporall end as to keepe exterior order and peace in the Congregation or to a spirituall end which is to iudge and define matters of beleefe and to establish Church discipline by decree The question is of this second kinde of Presidencie not of the first And who is principall in this kinde as hauing power to doe it either by himselfe or by his deputie whereunto notwithstanding your obiection I answeare that it is the Pope to whom belongs properlie to call moderate and approoue Generall Councells because he is aboue another Bishops and Successor to sainct Peeter in the gouerment of the whole Church Being aboue other Bishops and their Pastor he hath power to call and to commaund them to meete in Councell when the Generall Church-affaires doe require it which no Bysshop or Patriarke besides can doe none of them all being Superior to all the rest Neither cā the Emperour or any other secular Prince doe it not principallie because he is not Gouernour of the Church or Church busines nor subordinatelie if by some principall cause he chance to moued thereunto because his power is not extended to the latitude of the Church or ouer all Nations and all Bisshops whatsoeuer nor euer was So that his commaund vnto such men as were out of his Dominions were of no power to bringe them together more then the commaund of the kinge of Spaine or of the Spanish Bisshops would serue in France When the Bisshops are assembled the Pope still remaines as he was before their Pastor and their Foundation and there-their director their moderator and Presidēt And this the Generall Councell of Chalcedon did acknowledge in the Person of Leo whom they stiled their Father and their Heade and themselues his Sonnes and his Members 10. The Catholique Church allso did euer acknowledge in the Pope this right of Presidencie which I prooue by all the Generall Councells that euer yet haue bene For the later held in the West you freelie graunt it and if you did not the proofe were easie frō Trent Lions Florence and Rome it selfe Of the former held in Greece I prooue the same * Quibus tuquidem SICVT MEMBRIS CAPVT praeras in his qui tuum tenebant ordinem beneuolentiam praeferens
the stile and phrase of speach giues them no satisfaction at all For they so disesteeme it in this respect peculiarlie that in regard of the stile and matter they professe themselues moued to beleeue the contrarie and to put it out of the number of Canonicall bookes If you answere that by the helpe of the Spiritte you discerne it you moue them not for they claime as great an interest as full a participation of the Spirit as your selues aÌ„d therefore you moue not theÌ„ to beleeue as you do But suppose if you will that all Antiquitie stoode on your side what could this preuaile to moue a Lutheran to beleeue the matter or to coÌ„firme your disciples who stagger at your want of proofe what could this auaile I say seeing that it is agreed amoÌ„gst you that the Church that all the Fathers that all men since the Apostles might haue aggreed in an errour 27. According to the grounds of our Religion euerie Catholique can answere easilie that whatsoeuer by the Church of God is receaued for diuine Scripture is infalliblie such because the Church is directed by Gods All-seeing Spirit which can discerne it well And suppose the Catholique were vnlearned aÌ„d that all of you together both LutheraÌ„s and Caluinists should preteÌ„d that in the Bookes there wanted the Spirit of truth aÌ„d seeke to maintaine this with a shewe of oppositioÌ„ either within it selfe or to some other part of Scripture or to reason which thing you doe manie times pretend as Iulian and Porphyrie and others haue done before he would answere you all without difficultie by recourse to the diuine Assistance in the Church which he takes for a principle of Christian Religion beleeued heretofore by the whole Christian world and warranted by God himselfe in cleere termes and would say that the knowledge of the Church thus assisted is more certaine then the contrarie pretense of any aduerse part whatsoeuer and she more able to espie contradiction errour or opposition theÌ„ any other is in regard of the holie Spirit who directeth her and with an infinite vnderstanding lookes earnestlie vppon All. In vertue of which assistance she hath maintained scripture against Heathens and Apostataes and misbeleeuing Iewes aÌ„d Heretiques hetherto and still doth and will doe Further more a Catholike doth not thinke it necessarie that the booke which he beleeueth to be Scripture hath beene euer vniuersallie by the Church esteemed so He knowes it is sufficient if the Catholicke Church hath at any time beleeued it For one of the Principles of our ReligioÌ„ is that the Catholike Church cannot erre at all in matter of faith it cannot erre in any age in any tyme. And this principle hath euer bene beleeued by Catholiks Moreouer that which at any tyme she beleeueth hath beÌ„ infolded in her faith at other times and so virtuallie beleeued euer and by all 29. Now to your opposition Whereas you say that of late onelie some Books haue beene taken into the canon I answere first that such Bookes as your selues doe receaue for canonicall were not all at once vniuersallie receaued in the Church but were acknowledged by degrees S. Hieron de viris illustribus in Paulo Iacobo Petro IoaÌ„ne in Ep. ad Dardan itemque in Prolog So much you knowe by those I haue allreadie named and S. Hierom can tell you more Yet are these allso by your owne confession the word of God and were such in themselues before it was generallie knowne vnto the world As our Sauiour was the naturall Sonne of God and his increated Word before the world did knowe or beleeue him so to be The reason is because mans knowledge is later then the veritie and the more obscure the thing is the longer he is ordinarilie before he can find it out Secondlie it is not so late as you thinke since these Bookes were in the Church esteemed Cit. Bellarm de Verbo Dei l. 1. Vide Baron an 415 August Ep 235. de doct Chr. l. 2. c. 8. Innocent Ep. 3. ad Exuper c. 7. Can. SaÌ„cta Rom d. 15. Ierem. 36. canonicall and diuine though not so generallie as I noted before for you finde them cited for such in the Fathers writings verie oft and in the councell of carthage held in the tyme of Boniface twelue hundred yeares agoe you haue a Catalogue of them all the verie same which you finde now deliuered by the couÌ„cell of Trent sauing onlie that Baruch which the auncient Fathers did acknowledge allso for diuine is after the manner of those tymes comprized with Ieremie whose Secretarie you know he was I adde thirdlie that whereas S. Augustine who subscribed to the foresaid councell doth prescribe a rule for yonge Deuines to finde which Scripture is of greatest authoritie bidding them preferre that which all Churches doe receaue before that which is receaued onlie by some Churches or some part wee now seeing the foresaid canon receaued at length by the whole Church of God and this declared in a Generall Councell must and doe yeauen by S. Augustines rule receaue it all as the word of God and consequentlie of one and the same Authoritie all there being no surer ground of mans faith in such a case then is the Spirit of God in the Church The like I answere them allso who runne to the Iewes canon for the Spirit of the christian Church is no lesse able to discerne a veritie then they were and therefore if the christian Church at anie tyme declare a Booke to be diuine though the Iewes knewe it not wee beleeue it and must For the holie Ghost cannot erre The Iewes knewe not all that God hath taught his Church 30. The second exception is vnreasonable if you consider well what is done and the reason of it All Schollers as you knowe doe noe not addict their studies to the toÌ„gues the Hebrewe is so obscure that fewe doe attaine vnto anie reasonable knowledge of it and none at all in these later times especiallie to the comprehension of the tongue but by helpe of Dictionaries compiled by such as come short of the thing it selfe Of the 〈…〉 or of moderne Iewes not equall to the learned of the tyme wherein the Bookes were first written do endeuour what they can This experience hath taught vs Elias 〈…〉 in Habâ—â—â— Vide Genebrard in Psal 104. Serrar Prol. Bibl. c. 19. q. 6. Aliquoties dixi plurima vocabula esse quorum significatio ipsis etiam Hebraeis ignota est Luth. in Gen. c. 34 it is euident also in the continuation and transfusion of all languages to posteritie and Rabbines themselues doe confesse it In regard therefore that Schollers commonlie vnderstand not Hebrewe it hath euer beene thought conuenieÌ„t the Scripture should be translated into such a language as generallie they doe knowe which is Latine In the primitiue Church this was practised and among you it is allowed allso in so much that your predecessors Luther Caluin Beza Iunius and others
nimirum qui voto propositum illum caelestem panem edentes fide viua quae per dilectionem operatur fructum eius vtilitatem sentiunt tertios porrò SACRAMENTALITER simul SPIRITVALITER Conc. Trid. sess 13 cap. 8. If you vnderstand this as it is easie you will vnderstand many passages of the Fathers which doe concerne the communion Dupliciter caro Christi sanguis intelligitur vel SPIRITVALIS ILLA atque diuina de qua ipse dixi caro mea verè est cibus eadem substantia coÌ„parata ad diuersos modos existendi sanguis meus verè est potus Vel caro sanguis qua CRVCIFIXA est qai militis effusus est lancea Iuxta hanc diuisionem in Sanctis eius diuersitas sanguinis carnis accipitur vt ALIA sit caro quae visura est salutare Dei alia caro sanguis quae regnum Dei NON quâ—ant possidere S. Hieron Comment in cap. 1. ad Ephes Learne this all well and when you reade S. Augustine it will do you good Flesh and blood cannot possesse the kingdome of God 1. Cor. 15. v. 50. you would thinke this to be against the Article of the Resurrection reade the whole Chapter and marke the Apostles distinction of a bodie into a naturall body and a spirituall bodie and this spirituall bodie in substance is the same bodie which heere nature framed consisting of flesh and blood and this you beleeue the Resurrection See Card. Peron his Treatise of the Eucharist Paris 1622. comes to the communicants mouth Yea some tymes he is receaued vnworthilie as you may reade in S. Paul 1. Cor. 11. but those receauers haue not the spirituall effect and coniunction they receaue the bodie into their bodies they receaue not grace into their sowles from this bodie because they receaue it vnworthilie and not as the bodie of Christ a thing most holie by reason of the vnioÌ„ to the diuine person ought to be receaued 72. As for signes some doe signifie things present some things absent The Eucharist is a Sacrament and therefore a signe it is a signe of grace and a signe of the bodie of Christ present So the forme doth signifie This is my bodie and so the species vnder these words doe signifie to good Christians to all those that beleeue Iesus Christ S. Aug. enarrat ps 3. cont Adimant c. 12. This mysterie is allso a representation of the bloodie passion as I said before it is a figure of that sacrifice yet a Sacrifice too The word of God is the figure of the Fathers substance and yet he is a diuine person too The same thing may haue diuers attributes one not excluding another the Eucharist is a signe a representation an oblation a Sacrifice and in it are reallie the bodie and blood of Christ yea Christ himselfe is there All these doe consist one doth not exclude the other 73. Lastlie to conclude this matter I wish you to reflect that opposing the Masse as you doe you oppose all the Christian world that was before Luther This I will declare brieflie In Antioche AlexaÌ„dria Ierusalem Aethiopia Chaldaea East India First it is manifest that all knowne Christian Churches in the age before Luther did frequent the Masse In all Europe in all parts of Asia and Africke where anie Christians were The Christians in the partes latelie discouered all were found to frequent the Masse Allso the Nestorians and Eutichians in Aegypt the Russians Muscouites and Grecians all frequent the Masse Which is an euident argument they had it by tradition from the Apostles Both those who knewe nothing of the Bishop of Rome and those who knew him but obaied him not all agreed in the substaÌ„ce of the Masse or vnbloody Sacrifice who taught the world for such vniformitie and consent of so many Nations so dispersed and some to the rest wholie vnknowne in so darke a Mysterie as this is could not be from any naturall cause SecoÌ„dlie all these Churches that is all the knowne Churches in the world did beleeue they were thus to doe by the institution of Iesus Christ and the Tradition of the Apostles And among these the true Church was one because that is euer visible by her profession as I haue prooued Whence it followeth that the frequenting of Masse is approoued by the Spirit of the true Church S. Aug. l. 4. de bapt c. 6 and consequentlie it cannot be an ertour Thirdlie that custome which men euen then looking vpwards did not see instituted by those which were later then the Apostles is well beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles saith S. Augustine But all these Churches Infinite eies looking vpwards could not see the Institution of vnbloodie Sacrifice or Masse later then the Apostles which is manifest because they all receaued it as diuine and Apostolicall Therefore by S. Augustines rule it is well beleeued so to be 74. For the later ages you easilie admitte they weÌ„t to Masse and that they beleeued an Vnbloodie Sacrifice for the Primitiue Church you are yet some what doubtfull it seemes what to doe Missa abominatio in calice aureo propinâ—â—a omnes reges terra populos a suÌ„mo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim sua salutis in hac vna voragine statuerint Cal. 4. Inst c. 18. Let me helpe you forward to resolue vppon the truth That vnbloody Sacrifice in the formes of breade and wine which wee call the Masse was frequented by the Primitiue Church I prooue first by the consent of all Christian Churches euer since aÌ„d by their liturgies which as all these Churches doe testifie were deliuered them from the Church Primitiue Among these haue beene infinite wise men and greate Schollers as in another place I did argue They had better meanes to know the practise of the Primitiue Church then wee haue being neerer and some of them immediate The matter as frequentation of the Masse and their exteriour profession of their faith touching these things was subiect to the seÌ„se And amoÌ„g these was the catholique Church the spouse of Iesus Christ hauing the Assistance of the holie Ghost to discerne the true worshippe of allmightie God The testimonie of all these is sufficient to make vs beleeue that the Primitiue Church went to Masse or no testimonie of men is sufficient in any cause 75. I goe neerer In the begining of the seuenth age liued Isidorus S. Isid l. 1. Offic. c. 15. plura c. 18. Bisshoppe of Ciuil and a Sainct and he saith the order of Masse or prayers whereby SacrificeS offered vnto God are consecrated was first instituted by S. Peeter the celebration whereof saith he THE WHOLE VVORLD doth performe after one and the same manner All this world sure had meanes to knowe what their Fathers in the age before had donne better then wee they had their books they had conuersed with manie of theÌ„ let vs ascende In
the sixt Age wee haue the Testimony of seuerall * Concil Agath cap 470 GeruÌ„ den cap. 1 Aurelian â— 28. Turonens 2 cap 3. 4. ConstaÌ„tin act 1. citat Gaâ—ret Co. Gualt S. Greg. Magn. 4. Dial. c. 58 Hom. 37. in EuaÌ„ S. Aug. l. 1â— de Ciuit. c 22. Councells celebrated in many Nations wherein there is such expresse mention of the Masse as no tergiuersation can suffice But omitting that as allso the testimony of Remigius Cassiodorus Fulgentius and others of that time I content my self with the place before cited out of S. Gregorie because he was in communion with all the world Christ liuing himself immortallie is AGAINE SACRIFICED FOR VS in this Mysterie of the holie oblation In the begining of the sift age liued S. Augustine wheÌ„ Melchisedech did blesse Abraham there first appeared the Sacrifice which is offered now to God by Christians in ALL THE WORLD wee do not erect Altars wherein to sacrifice to Martyrs Idem l. 22 c. 10. but wee doe offer sacrifice to their God and ours The Sacrifice it self is the bodie of Christ And to the Iewes Open your eies at leingth Ibid. and see froÌ„ the east to the west not in one place as it was appointed you but in EVERIE PLACE offered the Sacrifice of the Christians Idem orat cont Iud. c 9.10.6 vide eundem de Ciuit. l. 17. c. 17. l. 18. c. 35. S. Ierom. adu Vigilant c. 3. vide S. Amb. ad Ps 38. not to what God soeuer but to the God of Israel who foretold it In the fourth age liued S. Ierome Ill therefore doth the Bysshop of Rome who ouer the venerable bones base dust according to thee Vigilantius of deade men Peeter and Paul doth offer Sacrifice and thinks their tombes to be Altars and this the Bisshops not of one towne onelie but of ALL THE WORLD doe who contemning Vigilantius enter into the Churches of the deade And Eusebius Bisshop of Caesarea speaking of those words of the Psalmist thou hast prepared a table in my sight c. He doth saith he Euseb Caesar Demonstr Euang l. 1. c. 10. in this openlie signifie the mysticall vnction and horrour-bringing Sacrifices of the table of Christ wherein operating wee are taught to offer VNBLOODIE and reasonable and sweete VICTIMES in our whole life to the most high God by his most eminent Priest of all And a little after vppon a place of Esaie they shall drinke wine c. Ibid. He doth prophecie to the Gentiles saith he the ioy of wine signifying therein somewhat obscurelie the mysterie of the newe Testament BY CHRIST instituted Idem orat de Lâ—â—d Constant which at this daie verilie IS OPENLIE celebrated in ALL NATIONS The same man in his Oration in the commendation of Constantine tells of Churches Altars Vide Cyp. l. 2. Ep. 3. and sacrifices in the whole world In the begining of the third age Sainct Cyprian did liue who saith S. Cypr. lib 1. ep 9. all that are honoured with diuine Priesthood and placed in Clericall ministerie ought not to serue but the Altar and Sacrifices and to follow their prayers and deuotions Our Lord aÌ„d God Iesus Christ is himself the most high Priest of God the Father Idem lib. â— ep 3. and he first of all hath offered SACRIFICE to God the Father and hath commaunded THE SAME to be donne for a commemoration of him Tertullian Tertall l. ad Scapul c. 2. S. Iren. l. 4. adu Haere c. 32. wee doe offer Sacrifice for the saftie of the Emperour to our God and his In the second age liued Ireneus and Iustinus both Saincts the one saith He Christ tooke that breade which is of the creature and gaue thankes saying this is my bodie and likewise he coÌ„fessed the Chalice which is of the creature which is according vnto vs to be his blood aÌ„d taught the new oblation of the new testament which the Church RECEAVING FROM THE APOSTLES doth offer to god in ALL THE WORLD S. Iustin Dial. cum Tryphone The other Euen then he Malichias foretold of our Sacrifices of Gentiles which are offered IN EVERIE PLACE that is of the breade of the Eucharist and the cuppe likewise of the Eucharist c. Ibid. God preuenting doth wittnes all those to be gratefull vnto him who offer thorough his name the sacrifices which Iesus Christ deliuered to be donne that is in the Eucharist of breade and the Chalice which are donne by Christians IN EVERIE PLACE 76. And heere I name againe the Liturgies of the Churches of Rome of AlexaÌ„dria of Ierusalem and of Aethiopia wherein is euident acknowledgmeÌ„t of this Vnbloodie Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine whereof I speake in so much that all these Liturgies and generallie the Liturgies of all knowne Christian Churches that euer yet were of anie note in the world consent and agree heerein If you denie these were auncient I bringe against you all these Churches who professe and beleeue to haue receaued them from hand to hand euen from the Apostles Thus other bookes haue beene deliuered vnto vs from Antiquitie And this Tradition must haue equall force in the deliuering of these bookes I adde further that all Churches cannot erre in tradition of Bookes otherwise you could neither be certaine of anie worke of anie Father as of S. Augustine S. Ierom c. nor of anie part of the Bible since therefore all knowne Churches agree in the receipt of the Liturgie from the Apostles you must beleeue it or else with the same pretense you may refuse the Bible too 77. Next I name the Apostles who taught a propitiatorie Vnbloodie Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine and did also say Masse Our B. Sauiour also at his last supper did offer this die Sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sacrificantibus autem illis domino Act. 13. v. 2. vert Eras remember what I cited but now out of S. Ireneus The Liturgies of S. Peeter S. Iames S. Matthew and Sainct Mark are yet extant as I haue declared by the Gospell in the first booke and the thing is so cleere that you cannot auoide it if you take the words of Scripture in their proper sense as the Church hath euer donne So well is the Masse grounded for which wee suffer now In the Masse you are to distinguish the substance of the sacrifice oblation consecration and the consumption of the sacred hoast or eating of the victime in this vnbloodie forme by the Priest from the Epistle Gospell prayers ceremonies c. the first was euer since and euerie where the same the second not names of Saincts prayers ceremonies might be and yet may be changed by the Church 78. To all this I adde further the testimonie of the holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth and Interpreter of Gods word for that sense wherein the Catholique Church spred ouer the world doth and euer did from the begining vniuersallie consent
A DISPVTATION OF THE CHVRCH Wherein the old Religion is maintained V. M. C. F. E. Ierem. 6.16 Aske of the old paths which is the good way and walke in it and you shall find refreshing for your soules LAVDA BILE NOMEN DOMINI AT DOWAY By MARCK WYON at the golden Phaenix 1629. TO MY FRINDS IN ENGLAND DEARE FRINDS I haue vnderstood of your troubles and doe take comfort in your constancie Your cause is cleere your religion that which the sonne of God hath taught In former time no other was in England So much you know by the Histories and Chronicles of the country so you haue ben told by your parents who sawe the profession of it with their owne eies so your ancestors doe testifie by their wills and graues Your Churches there were built for the exercise of it as you can prooue by the generall forme of them by the crosses and pictures by the altars made for Masse Euer since the conuersion of the country from Paganisme by Sainct Augustine and his fellowes monkes it hath beene there till of late and S. Augustine brought it from Rome where it had beene common from the time of S. Peeter and S. Peeter learned it of our Sauiour Iesus Christ Those that are learned if they will looke into the Ecclesiasticall History which diuers and of late the worthy Cardinall Caesar Baronius haue compiled may see there looking vpwards to the Apostles time this Religion descending thorough all ages in sacred esteeme euer the preachers gods trumpets proclaiming it the generall councells making roome the martyrs testifying the truth of it with their blood the light of miracles accompanying it all the way and worlds of people waiting on The Societie of those that professe it is the Church and is diffused ouer the World and Catholique it is that Church which in your Creede you doe beleeue This is the spouse of the sonne of God the woman clad with the sunne manifest vnto all that willfully do not shutte their eies by her antiquitie cleere successioÌ„ vniuersality and the twelue-fold Apostolicall glorie doth crowne her heade or beginning Shee hath beene opposed by diuers Heresies but still gotte the victory bringing foorth Saincts to Iesus Christ in the labour of persecution You know the counsell of the Scripture Sonne comming to the seruice of God prepare thy soule to temptation and the affirmation of the Apostle is generall All those that will liue godly shal suffer persecutâ—on The state of the Church heere is militant and those are to be crowned that ouercome The way to heauen is full of crosses mockeries stripes and the sword helpe vs on This way those are gone of whom the world was not worthy afflicâ—ed needie in distresse This way our blessed Sauâ—our went who was heere contemned scourgel crucified It is the King of Heauens high way Our heade is gone before all blood and so entered into blisse the Apostles the Martyrs the Confessoâ—s old Simeon too and little Agnes are gone after him with their crosses and wee are bid if will liue eternally to take vp each of vs one and followe To take the spoile of your goods with ioy is to enbrace and kisse your crosse There is no deliberation when I must leaue gold or god no comparison betwixt a diamond in a gold ring and the deitie in eternitie O my deare frinds you haue each of you a Iewell within your selues richer then all the eie can see without fairer then the sunne it self and farre aboue all the disposition of the stars The vsurers Idol gold waxeth pale if you compare it to the burning sparkles of the chrysolite In your Iewell you may see heauen and earth in the compasse of the vnderstanding It hath engrauen in it the image of allmighty God and is for nature next an angell by grace companion with him as being to beare a part in the heauenly quire and there without astonishment to sing allelluia with those thousand thousand glorious queristers if the fault be not yours The Soule hauing free will had once lost it self you may by the meanes taken to recouer it know the worth The sonne of God came from heauen downe to looke it and redeemed it with that which is better then the world his life Those infinite wrongs which he suffered from men of all sorts â—hose innumerable stripes which he receaued from the soldiers whose crueltie made him all a wound the bitter passion of the crosse which no words are able to expresse was all for our redemption for the soule If you loose it now againe you wrong his loue you depriue him of his right you moue his father whose angry lookes are burning fire to reueng It is horrible to fall into the hands of the liuing God The pillars of heauen do tremble and dreade at his beck He hath measured the water with his fiste and pondered the heauens with a spanne He looketh on the earth and maketh it to treÌ„ble toucheth the mountaines and they smoke If you keepe it well he will make it a heauen wherein he with the father and the holy Ghost will dwell foreuer And your bodies he wil invest with ornaments of glory aÌ„d immortallity and place each of you in a throne with himself in the court of heauen where all are kings You shall dwell in the celestiall Ierusalem whose streete is all of pure gold and walls pretious stone where God is the Temple and the light These things God hath promised vnto those who serue him wherefore aboue all haue a care of your religion Your soule is your Iewel and Religion is the Iewel of your sowle Keepe these well and you shaâ—l be happie though persecution leaue you nothing els Each of you may haue a common wealth a kingdome within your selues if you please No State more happie no gouerment more sweete then that is where loue commaundeth and vertues do obay Let Charitie be Queene in your soule and the Vertues will all bâ— there Let men see the streingth of your faitâ— in your constancie and the sanctitie of it in tâ—e candor of your conuersation Giue all men theâ—r due to whom tribute tribute to whom Feare Feâ—re to whom honour honour In your actiâ—ns be circumspect as it becommeth Christians who beleeue the eies of God and Angels are oâ— them still and that each action is inrowled exactly to be reade and censured in the day of doome Loâ—ke oft on the liues of Saincts and by their example learne how you are to carrie your selues in yoâ—r difficulties you will do things with more ease wheÌ„ you see them doÌ„ne before you those were menâ—s wee are Be not afraid of persecution The protâ—ction of allmighty God is more then a wall of brâ—sse they who trust in him are safe mountaines in ciâ—cuite of the holy cittie and our Lord round about his people Nothing caÌ„ rob vs of our soules vnles wee will and if that be saued wee shall haue all that God hath for wee shal haue him Our
you knew me by another and whether I had euer vsed that I could not then readily call to mind You will say peraduenture that a circumstance tied your tongue This may be and therefore bearing respect that way too I will discouer you no further but leaue you at your liberty though otherwise being out of the Kingdome I might be more open then I am You haue infinitely wronged your owne soule in offering to drawe men from the communion the Church and to leade them into heresies opposite directly to the word of God and accursed by the holy Ghost Trouble not your self any further to dresse vp ould shifts that haue beene worne out long agoe If you cannot prooue your cause positiuely as none euer yet could or will doe as long as God is truth hold your peace The more you maintaine heresie the deeper a lodging you bespeake your self in hell That you may escape that gulphe I shewe you heere S. Peeters Shippe fairely vnder saile towards eternitie and will reach you my hand if you wil come into it F. E. APPROBATIO EGo infrascriptus S. T. Facultatis Parisiensis Doctor testor me legisse tractatum hunc inscriptum A Disputation of the Church hoc est Disputatio de Ecclesia in libros quatuor partitum Authore F. E. in quo nihil inueni vel contra fidem Catholicam Romanam vel contra bonos more 's sed econtrà eandem fidem Catholicam dilucidè probatam confirmatam propugnatam horum temporum haereses solidè ac clarè confutatas In cuius rei testimonium praesentibus subscripsi 17. Maij An. 1629. ANT. CHAMPNEVS VIsâ hac attestatione Doctoris Sorbonici censeo idem opus vtiliter excudi posse Actum Duaci die 28. Maij. 1629. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theologiae Doctor regius ordinariusque Professor Duacensis Academiae Cancellarius in eadem Academia librorum Censor COurteous Reader I haue beene forced to vse a Printer who vnderstood not the language therefore wonder not if thou find heere errous in the print as diuision of syllables transposition of letters ill pointing c. In mending one fault sometimes he made another and I had not leisure to looke nicely to him If any doubt occurre in the reading be pleased to haue recourse to this place where the chiefest errours are amended The lesser committed by mistaking the letters or omitting or adding where the sense is not changed I will not speake of because he who cannot in reading supply such defects is not able by himself to make vse of the discourse Pag. 51. l. 17. cuppe pag. 52. l. 4. cuppe p. 90. l. 19. sight p. 96. l. 28. the kingdome p. 105. l. vlt. the temple p. 121. marg In Oper. S. Leonis p. 127. l. 16. and Eutichians after p. 146. l. 18. wee are p. 151. l. 13. then p. 155. 19. saue p. 185. l. 20. word p. 137. l. 15. neere p. 195. l. 13. sonnes p. 206. l. 6. abettors p. 237. l. 24. proceede p. 235. l. 7. is not p. 239. l. 25 in Israel p. 283. marg fact And. p. 298. l. 10. reprehend and his making others by his example to Iudaize was p. 300. l. 16. in our p. 340. l. 7. of nature p. 344. l. 6. tripping p. 347. marg vnitatis p. 359. l. 16. iudgment The. p. 367. l. 3. therefore p. 376. l. 14. it is a. p. 403. l. 8. of all l. 22. thy p. 405. marg l. 6. 4. p. 410. l. 15. omit verie p. 412. l. 27. and p. 413. l. 1. 2. it wrong charact p. 416. l. 12. is p. 424. l. 4. hold p. 430. l. 7. a liuing victime p. 433. marg omit Origen c. p. 435. l. 32. if you beleeue the. p. 441. l. 4. testimony of S. Cypr. vnperf The leaues at the toppe are ill numbred but I followe them as they are Some of those English authors which I haue cited I had not by me and therefore was forced to cite them out of others and out of latine so that I may haue missed to giue the same words but haue kept the sense p. 129. l. 28. an 680. Fathers 289. THE FIRST BOOKE OF THE WANT OF EVIDENCE for the continuall Visibilitie and Existence of the Protestant Religion and Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Declaring that vnto Catholikes demaūding euidēce of the Protestant succession and visible existence at all tymes in the world since the Apostles no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to the Waldenses and such as they were IT were good in the begining for the greater perspicuitie of my discourse to define the thing Protestant whereof I am to speake in this booke but Martine Luther and Iohn Caluin your Apostles and authors of your sect or religion as you call it so detested each others doctrine whē they were aliue that they cannot yet endure one definition being dead In regard of this I was once about to leaue out the Lutheran partie which in England is of lesse note and to sute our English with a definition for their turne but this was lothsome to the Puritan who by noe meanes can abide to be shut vp with the Parlamentarian within the same termes It seemed therfore not amisse neglecting all priuate differences to content my selfe with that wherein they assented and to make a generall notion of the Protestant in common This I thought was easie and might serue well inough But eieing the substance of Protestancie neerer to take measure of the thing wherby my definition might be fit I found noe constant being but vncertaintie in the essence of it This substance being as you saie pointes fundamentall and these more or lesse as euery Spirit will which Spirit is diuers not in the multitude onlie but in the same man many tymes The Moone was abroade in the could frosty nightes without cloethes and her mother pittying her spake to Mercurie as the tale is tould for a coate Mercurie taking measure when she was full a fortnight after or thereabouts brought the garment but found her changed and the coate a great deale to bigge Home he went againe to cut it and returning then it was to little and with all his skill he could neuer make it fit the Moone being some tymes thicke some tymes slender in the wast sometymes horned sometymes round Wheruppō he despaired of the worke and gaue it ouer A hard taske it were for a painter to represent Proteus in a picture but it is harder far to make a definition of your Church her essence or substance doth euer varie and is sometymes greater sometymes lesse neuer constantlie the same Yet because I am to speake of it and without some kind of notion this cannot well be I take here a Protestant for a man of the religion so you call it now currant in England and the Protestant Church I take for a companie of such men 3. Now that you cannot prooue by good euidence the CONTINVAL SVCCESSION or existence of this companie this religion this Church at all
tymes euer since the Apostles vntill this daie it is by longe experience verie manifest Euer since Luther and Caluin did begin to spread their doctrine it hath ben demaunded and your men haue endeuoured to make answeare hauing examined to this end and purpose all Bookes and monumentes that are extant and yet after infinite inquisition noe such euidence can be found Sometymes indeed you name some men of diuers Sectes and Religions in which kind Illyricus hath laboured hard but when he cometh to the thing expected that is to prooue they were of your religion there he leaueth you wheras it is this onlie which is expected from a Scholler for euery prating fellow can affirme what he list It were not hard for an vnknowne vpstart to lay claime to a very noble Petegree and greate Dominions but without euidence he will not be admitted and beleeued It is EVIDENCE that wee looke for show the Proofe of that you say 4. Being vrged againe and againe with this you name in fine the poore Beggars of Lions of Waldo their author called Waldenses wherin you doe meerely spend tyme and cozen simple people You know that your owne men reiected their coÌ„munioÌ„ and it hath ben tould you oft Protest Apol. they agreed not with you The matters of your differeÌ„ce haue ben named and are noted in your owne authors and the thing I demanded was your proofe See Prot. Apol. trac 2. c. 2. sec 3 R. Chalced de essent prot relig lib. 2. cap. 5. your euidence where is it where is your proofe that the Waldenses who liued before Luther for of them onelie I inquire were of the Religion now curraÌ„t among you and where is the Catalogue of their Continuall SuccessioÌ„ euer since the Apostl'es time and Euidence of their Communion with Nations and of the publike profession of that Religion in all the world These things I did expect this Catalogue I must see or the demaund of continuall Succession will rest euer vnsatisfied as it hath donne hetherto 5. Those men dissented from you in the point of a Errant in eo quòd non credunt solam fidem absque operibus iustificare Lutherus in Colloq Germ. c. de Suerm Coc. t. 1. l. 8. a. 4. De imputata iustitia nihil norunt Luth. ibid. Iustification Vide R. Chal. de essen rel prot c. 6. which is the ground and foundation of ProtestaÌ„cie aÌ„d held the reall b Confess Bohem. a. 13. and Caluin saith of their Confession Formulam Confessionis amplecti quae sine discrimine in vnum fasciculum damnationis omnes in voluit qui pracisè non fatâ—ntur panem esse prasentissimè Christi corpus hic recitamus eorum verba an fas sit Christiano homini videritis nos certè non putamus Epist 244. presence in our sense wherefore they were not yours Secondly they held sundry damnable opinions which you dare not approoue as that he which is in mortall sinne Illyric in Catal. test de VVald ex Syl. Rain IteÌ„que Anto. Guid. de Wal. dogm Aeneas Sylu. Hist Bohem. Luxemb in Paup de Ludg. 1. Tim. 4. 1. Cor. 7. falleth out of all dignitie therby whether it be Ecclesiasticall or Ciuile and therfore is not to be obayed that lay men and women may eonsecrate and preach that euerie good layman is a Priest that the Apostles were lay men that clergy men should haue no possessions They condemned Mariage a manifest Heresie IudgmeÌ„t to blood aÌ„d oathes Thirdly your owne men refused their communion as you know by c Cam. de Eccl. in Bohem. c. p. 273. Camerarius d Morg. tract de Eccl. p. 79. and 124. Morgernstern e Calu. Ep. 278. Caluin f Melanc in Consilijs par 2. pag. 152. Melancthon g Schlus Catal. tom 3. p. 188. And see Iewell Pantaleon and Osiander of the Albigenses cited prot Apol. Sec. cit Schlusselburg and others and charge them with maintayning obstinately grosse errours and Heresie Fourthly they had no Hierarchie hauing amongst them no Bishops Fox acts moÌ„ p. 628. Sim. VoyoÌ„ Cata. p. 132 Osiand Epitom and their owne tenet suprà nor Priests but al being lay people and therefore could not be the Church of God Fiftly Waldo a Marchant of Lions and an vnlerned lay man who liued an 1170. was the first and chiefe of that Sect so that they failed in the point of Antiquitie and Continuall Succession euer since the Apostles which is the thing whereunto you were to answere And will neuer doe till you putte downe some in euery age and bring vnquestionable Euidence for them which will neuer be 6. If notwithstanding the coÌ„trarie iudgmeÌ„t of your men you will ioyne to their Church and maintaine the Succession of your Church by them Heb. 5. v. 4. Rom. 10. v. 15. Confess Bohem. a. 13. Caluinianos VValdensiuÌ„ CoÌ„fessionem dâ—prauasse ostendit Conrad Schlussel Theol. Calu. li. 2. art 6. who could not ordaine you Priests and Bishops hauing themselues none nor teach being theÌ„selues vnsent you must prooue cleerele first that they had lawfull vocation and ordination Secondly that they held not the forsaid errours and Heresies or you must admitte that you hold them also Thirdly that they did agree with you in all other points particularly descending to each As in the manner of the reall presence the Bohemian Confession doth say they did not but that they vnderstood the words properly as wee doe Luth. supra cit R. Chalc. sup cit Haud scio an vsquam diu publicè suam fidem sint prosessi c. praeterquam in Bohemia in quadam valle in radicibus AlpiuÌ„ Illyr de VValdens suprà Epiphan haeres 61. August haeresi 40. that they held iustification by faith as you Luther saith they knew it not yet this is the sowle and foundation of Protestancie in the iudgment and by the confession of your owne men And so you must on to the rest where you will find many of your owne who will coÌ„tradict you to your face Fourthly you must bring proofe that those men were in the world before Waldo and that of them there was a continuall succession euer since the daies of the Apostles I speake not of those Heretikes called Apostolici wherof S. Epiphanius and S. Augustine speake though they coÌ„demned also mariage and hauing of possessions and therefore held in part the forenamed heresies that is two of them but I speake of the VValdenses I demaund good proofe and euidence that such men were existent in the world euer since Christ ascended And I will not accompt it satisfaction if you tell me they saie so for I beleeue neither them nor you but demaund proofe Bring foorth your monumentes and read vs the names of their Bishops or some of them at least for there were such among them if theires were the Church Act. 20 2â— Ephes 4.11.13 Eph. 4.12 since Gods Church is gouerned by Bishopes there were
Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.
on with your conceipt but wrong not other men The Aethiopians as blacke as they are doe loath and abhorre the communion of your Church and are the more vnwilling to heare of it Luther Respons ad Dialog Syluest Pri. Calu. in Antidot Conc. Tri. sess 6. c. 12. because she is not ashamed to professe that she cānot keepe the cōmaundementes with all the helpe she hath frō God allmightie and cōsequentlie that she cannot for beare blasphemie nor errour nor witchcraft nor adulterie nor murder nor robberie in fine that she cānot possiblie obserue that Minimum legis mandatū onus Aetna grauius Calu. Ibid. which equitie doth require and God commaund And for this among other reasons not Ethiopians onelie but all the rest of the world loathe her and wishe she were retired againe into her hole of inuisibilitie 12. As touching your māner of answearing I wish you to consider that you doe not satisfie our demaund nor euer will by naming such as agree not with vs in some one point or more White Illyricus vnles you prooue likewise that they doe agree with you and be of the religiō which in England you professe For example if you name a mā which denied the Popes primacie Ob. The Papists haue not a Succession of such as they are Answ. l. 2. c. 6. and l. 3. c. 4. as you doe if this man consent not with you in other thinges it is childish to thinke you satisfie our demaund by naming him he may be in other pointes of the same minde with vs or with Arians or with Nestoriās or with Eutichians or Mahometans or Iewes or Athiestes and therfore not a Protestant vnles you admit all kind of men into your communion and will haue the Protestant Church to be the congregation of them all And this too would not serue for the thing wee demaūd is a catalogue or successiō of mē whose religion is the same with yours and currant there in Englād In like mānner if you should name a man which agreed with you in one halfe of your positions and in the other halfe dissented this man were not yours yea lesse then halfe or a quatter or the tenth part is Ynough to diuide a man from communion and from vnitie in beleefe as you may see in S. Epiphanius S. Epiph. op Panar S. Aug. de Haeres tom 6. and S. Augustine That you may the better conceaue me suppose one of your fellowes is become an Arian I aske you whether he be of your religion and whether his religion be currant there in England or not if it be then Arianisme is there currāt though the Roman profession be abhorred if it be not thē a fewe yea one point is ynough to diuide you in religion from that man and him from you Now those men which you bring were each of them contrarie in many pointes as Waldo Berengarius Wickleffe and therefore diuided and distinct in religion frō you Neither will your distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamētall help you here both because those men did differ in your fundamentall ād most essentiall point of Protestancie that is in the matter of Iustification as also because errours in other pointes besides those which you call fundamentall are sufficient to make distinction in religion which is euident and by your selues cānot be denied for you saie that Papistes holde all fūdamētalls and yet their religion is not yours But of this I haue spoked alreadie and neede not repeate it I onelie adde now that a man by your principles may denie euery verse which is in the Bible and obstinatelie too excepting that onelie which is expressed in the three Creedes and Baptisme and the Supper and yet be of the same Church and communion with your selfe And what thinke you of your fellow that saieth further that Arian Churches are allso to be accompted the Churches of God because they hold the foundation of the Gospell If this hold Morton of the Kingd of Isr and the Church p. 94. what makes an heretique what communion doe you refuse what Church among Christians can be false If all the Bible but twelue propositions or there aboutes if the Incarnation if the Trinitie if the Christians God may be denied and the deniers be accompted the Church of God It restes that you saie now that the Turkes are also of the same Church and religion with your selues 13. A like obseruatiō to the former I would haue you to reflect on whē our mē demaūd White what Church wee went out of and what precedent Church did oppose it selfe to our religion and contradict it Wee doe not aske whether any man euer did oppose any part of our beleefe wee know there were such there were some which did oppose the deitie of our Sauiour some the Deitie of the holy Ghost some the real Presence some Images c. this wee know but the demaūd requires proofe of a Protestāt Church or any other if you be wearie of defēding your owne which being before ours did examine iudge and cōdemne our religion If your men will giue satisfaction to the questiō they must answeare this they must assigne a visible Church allwayes extant which did still condemne our religion whensoeuer wee appeared and being one in it selfe was still against vs at all tymes when wee were Your last answere is that the Church of God was all infected with erroures for many hundred yeares which errours were such notwithstanding saie you as destroied not her essence white And this conceipt you declare in the exāple of a leprouse mā For your Church I admit easilie that it is infected with errours The Church of God is not as you shall heare in the third booke where that matter shall be examined in the meane tyme I repeate the former argument and put it thus Either all Christians before Luther did erre in Matters of religiō Arg. or some onelie or none at all If none at all did erre Then why would you mend that which by your cōfession was not before amisse why trouble you the world to bringe in a newe religion without which you confesse it was well before If all of them did erre in matters of religion then your religion did not come downe to you from the Apostles by a succession continuall as you pretend your faith and religion was not alwayes in the world the Gospell was not sincearlie and incorruplie professed at all tymes I adde further if al did erre then you haue vndertaken a taske vnpossible in your owne iudgment in offering to maintaine a perpetuall existence or being of your religion and you quarrell with all that went before And where then was the all teaching spiritte did he mistake the true doctrine or did Christ breake his word If some onelie did erre and not all giue vs a Catalogue of some of thē who did not erre let vs heare their names the place of their aboade the profession they were
of the tyme they liued in produce a Catalogue a Continuall Catalogue of such mē as agreed in doctrine with you such as held the religion now currant in England who were they whence were they where were they hould vp your head man open your eies and looke the question in the face THE THIRD CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen to the demaund by recourse vnto Antiquitie 15. HAd your religion bene such that you could haue giuen accōpt and euidence of her continuall existence in the world there would yet remaine a greater taske behinde which were to prooue the generall communion it had with Nations and that it was and is Catholique in that respect that it did and doth consent with Antiquitie with the Apostles doctrine and with the Scripture for this must be prooued and exactly too before wee receaue it See the Protest Apol. and the Prud. Ballance and leaue that which hath bene generallie professed in England well neare a thousand yeares together and was all that space the knowne religiō of the Christiā world The true religion is such as I haue said and therfore if you will haue vs praie with you first showe that your Church is thus ample thus Catholique thus grounded and ours not for vntill you prooue this which will neuer be you may not hope that wee will come out of our Church into yours To proceed therfore I demaund euidence that your religion that I saie which in England is now currāt hath bene generallie in the cōmunion of the Christian world and I demaund such euidence as may commaund a wise mā to beleeue it Your answeare to this in effect is that in the first six hundred years it was so though you will not be tied to giue accōpt of it afterwardes By which euasion I doe gather that you apprehend the former argumēt as a ghost haunting and affrighting you seeing that for feare of meeting it againe you haue stepped ouer a thousand yeares together to take sanctuarie among the Fathers in their Church I was about to saie you were ill aduised to aduēture yourselfe thether where Iouiniās Nouatiās Donatistes and other your progenitors were cōdemned and accursed but cōsidering your case better I see that feare would not let you aduise at all but cast you no matter whether so it were farre ynough out of my waie 16. Now therfore I follow thether but first obserue how you dare not auouch and in effecte do deny that the religion you maintaine was openlie professed receaued publicklie for nine hundred yeares before Luther which is but could encouragement for men to come to or to staie with you who pretending to giue accompt of a continuall succession and euer visible Catholique Church doe come so short of the thinge expected that you can show none in all the world for nine hūdred yeares together and this which you haue said being wrested out of you vppon the racke ād much against your will because infinitelie preiudiciall to your cause I take for an effect of the former argument which you haue not ben able to answeare yet nor euer will be The like issue it hath oft had before for your writers ād best learned men hauing the space of a hundred yeares together bene vrged and importuned with this question haue laboriouslie searched all recordes turned ouer and ouer all authors examined all writinges with that industrie men are to suppose which a cause required wheruppon eternitie doth depende and yet after infinite inquisition cannot finde such a Church in former tyme as yours is and herevpon haue confessed that the Christian world was of our Religion before Luther not of yours imagining hereby a generall Apostasie frō the faith to haue ouerrunne the whole world Cal. praef Instit Hence Caluin in his Institutions saith that in the ages past there was no face of a true Church and that the true Religiō was drowned ād ouerthrowne for many ages Whittaker saith no religion but the papisticall had place in the Church Whittak cont Dur. p. 274. and wee knowe saith he as plainlie that the Church hath perisshed as thou knowest a man to be dead The Popes tyranny saith Luther hath extinguisshed the faith many ages Luth. Capt Babil c. de Bapt. Perk. Expos Creed p. 400. Simon Voyon Ep ad lect Hutter de sacrif mis p. 377. Before the dayes of Luther saith Perkins for the space of many hūdred yeares an vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the world When Boniface was installed saith an other the whole world was ouerwhelmed in the dregges of Antichristiā filthines with superstitiōs and traditiōs of the Pope another I graunt willinglie that the papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especiallie these last thousād yeares another Hospin Hist Sacram l. 2. p. 157. in the tyme of Gregorie the great all kinde of superstitiō ād Idolatrie hath as a sea ouerflowed all the Christian world no man resisting Another the Papisticall ād Antichristian Raigne began about the yeere 316. after Christ raigning vniuersallie ād without any debateable cōtradiction 1260. yeares Napp on the Reuel p. 68. the Pope and his clergie during all that tyme possessing the outward visible Church of the Christiās another For certaine through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church Seb. Franc. Ep de abrog stat Eccl. together with the faith and sacramēts vanished a way presentlie after the Apostles departure and for these 1400. yeares the Church hath bene no where externall and visible another the true Church decaied immediatelie after ther Apostles tyme. Fulk answer to Counterf Cath. p. 35. I haue a horrour to recite what the bouldnes of your men doth auouch further towching the Christian Church in common and her Apostasie from the faith cōtrarie to the sēse of all Antiquity and to the iudgment of the Christian world yea contrarie to the promises of Iesus Christ and to the couenant of allmightie God as hereafter I will shewe Meane while compare these textes vnto your doctrine of the Church In the later dayes shall be prepared the mountaine Isay 2. the house of our lord in the toppe of mountaines and it shall be raised aboue the litle hilles and all Nations shall flowe vnto it Thou shalt not be called any more forsaken and thy land shall not be any more called desolate Id. c. 62. but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because our lord hath taken complacence in thee and thy land shall be inhabited Id. c. 59. My spirit that is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede saith our lord from hence foorth and for euer 17. The Church in the Scripture is so ample that All nations flowe vnto it so established and so deare vnto Christ that she is no more forsaken but her lād euer
Here I replie that wee haue Scripture too and that you cannot bringe sufficient euidence that the Scripture is against vs and with you For tryall of this I am contented according to your desire to abstract from all other meanes what soeuer from the testimonies of learned Fathers from the definitions of generall Councells from consent of Nations and other argumeÌ„ts of that kinde and to see whether the Scripture alone will approue or condeÌ„ne our Religion And because in deducing a consequence out of obscure premises a mans wit may be deceaued I wil abstract from this allso that is from drawing consequences out of Scripture looking onely to that which is and necessarily must be true and which is formallie auouched or denied in Gods word and I argue thus The Scripture doth no where formallie denie any point of our faith nor formallie affirme any point which our Church doth denie therefore the Scripture doth not formallie condemne vs. I say formallie for your consequences are not Scripture and therefore I abstract as I said from them as impertinent to the termes and state of this Question wherein now wee are 27. To this argumeÌ„t you and your fellowes make answeare by allegation of Scripture against vs The chiefest I will brieflie runne ouer here the rest shall be answered in other places as it comes Wee honour Images Ex. 20.4 Honoraria adoratione non vera latria Conc. gen Nic. 2. act 7. in deâ—i in ep ad Impp. and this you say is opposite to that of Exodus thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen thing nor the likenes c. Our doctrine is that Images are indeed to be honoured yet not with the soueraigne honour due to God but with another inferior This is declared by the Church in the second Nicene Councell Now to the place of Scripture I answeare that it makes not against vs because respectiue or relatiue honour giuen to pictures in regard of the reference they haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the Samplers is not there spokeÌ„ of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 non adorabis ea neque latria coles ea but soueraigne honour onely aÌ„d this wee do not giue to pictures The truth of this answeare is cleere by the circumstaÌ„ces of the text wherein allmightie God reserues his Soueraignetie and the honour due to God vnto him selfe as being the onely God and none God but he To helpe out your argument here you adde a word of your owne to the text and reade thou shalt make to thee no grauen image whereas the Hebrew word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not signifie an image but sculptile a grauen thing You might as well haue said sculpere were latine for to paint The Greeke text hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The 70. Interpreters whence the Latine word IdoluÌ„ in English an Idol aÌ„d the litterall sense is thou shalt not make to thy selfe an idol that is a feined God nor adore him Now Catholiques neither make to them selues nor adore Idols nor yeeld Soueraigne honour or acknowledgment of Deitie to any but to God wherefore this place is not against vs. And if you will needs haue the Scripture to contradict vs in this point since contradiction must be affirmatioÌ„ and negation of the same and since the words worship and honour haue diuers senses for men do worship allso others that are not Gods and do honour their prince their Parents c let vs heare out of the Scripture the opposite of that which wee say ours is this it is lawfull to honour Images with a relatiue honour which is not the soueraigne honour due to God but an other infinitely lesse the contradictory wherevnto is this it is not lawfull to giue such an honour vnto Images Showe this proposition in the Scripture and you condemne vs otherwise it is impertineÌ„t and because I knowe it is not there at all I goe to the next wherein you labour to knocke our Church on the heade by proouing the Pope to be Antichrist 28. The text cited is this 2. Thesâ— 2â— v. 3.4 Vnlesse there come a reuolt first and the man of sinne the sonne of perdition be reuealed which is an aduersary and is exalted aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he sitteth in the teÌ„ple of God VVitcâ— sewing him him selfe as if he were God This text should not haue bene vrged together with the former if you had looked to gaine any thinge with it for by the former you would haue prooued that the Pope made himselfe and taught the Church to be inferiour to many Gods And Antichrist as you finde here will pretend to be aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped how then can you imagine the Pope to be Antichrist againe the Pope doth worship and pray to Saincts and Angells he doth acknowledge himselfe to be minister and seruant to Iesus Christ he doth acknowledge the blessed Trinitie to haue made and to conserue him and to be infinitely greater then he the Pope is in power and Maiestie and this he doth teach vnto the Church Dan. 7. 11. whereas Antichrist will extoll himselfe aboue all that is worshipped and will speake greate things against the God of Gods and will laboure to be greater in the estimatioÌ„ of men then all that is called God and thus to sit in Gods Temple Moreouer S. Peeter did sit as Vicar and Pastor in the Church Matth. 16.18 Io. 21.18 he being by our Sauiour created the foundation and the Pastor of it and his residence was in Rome allso yet none hath bene hetherto so impudeÌ„t as to say that he was Antichrist and he were sensles that would auouch it since Antichrist is not a minister of Christ and his seruant but an aduersary who doth magnifie himselfe aboue him and aboue all that is adored Wherefore it is a sensles thing to say that the successors of S. Peeter are Antichrist for that reason that is because they sit as Pastors in the Church and reside in Rome And thus much for the matter of this instance As for the forme of it you must obserue better that the text of Scripture doth not affirme that which wee denie or denie that which wee affirme Wee say the Pope is the Pastor of the Church and Vicare of Christ and that he is not Antichrist The Scripture doth not say the Pope is not Pastor of the Church that he is not the Vicar of Christ that he is Antichrist And therefore our Church hetherto is not formallie contradicted by the Scripture 29. 1. Cor. 10 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That which is in the Chalice is it which did issue out of the side c. Chrysost in hunc locum Thirdly to contradict the Church which doth beleeue the holy Eucharist to be the body and bloud of Christ and not bakers breade and bare wine though it be in the outward formes of them You bringe the place
an attire of a Apoc. 3. â— 4. saincts and crowned after the b 2. Ti. 4.8 victorie as it seemes with golden c Apoc. 14. v. 14. crownes aÌ„d sitting being now at d Ibid. v. 13. rest vppon thrones round about the throne of Christ in heauen are not saincts there raigning with Christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * He that shall ouercome and keepe my works vnto the end I will giue him power 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ouer Nations so your selues turne it And he shall rule them with a rod of yron Apoc. 2. v. â—6 see Matt. 25. v. 21. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I will make ruler ouer many things ouer the earth or if wee must beleeue that the Saincts whose prayers they present be not holie men on earth you must bring not a guesse but a theologicall demoÌ„stration for it I was here to bring the letter and I stick to it and caÌ„not be remoued vnles you shew cleere Scripture for Tradition you looke not after against the seÌ„se I take it in aÌ„d that it be so iudged not by you for I esteeme not your iudgmeÌ„t but by the Catholique Church which is impossible as you knowe by that which she beleeueth in this point Obserue this for the next Angels offer prayers Apoc. 8. v. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aÌ„d others after that I neede not repeate it Another Angel came and stood before the alter hauing a golden censaâ— and there were giuen to him many incenses that he should giue of the prayers of all saincts vppon the alter of gold which is before the throne of God And the smoke of the incenses of the prayers of the saincts ascended froÌ„ the hand of the Angell before God Thus for Angells and Saincts offering the prayers of the Church vnto God and in this is included essentiallie that they do take them after their intellectuall manner that is vnderstand them Heerevppon the Church doth call vppon them and so did the AuÌ„cient Fathers whose Testimony and Spirit might haue suffised for our example Wee beleeue allso that it is good to pray for the Deade You say no. Calu. 3. Inst c. 5. The Scripture It is a holy and behouefull cogitation to pray for the deade 2. Mac. 12.46 Prayer for the dead S. Aug. l. 8. de ciuit c. 36. that they may be released from their sinnes I said the scripture because to vse here S. Augustines words not my owne Tbe bookes of the Machabees not the Iewes but the Church esteemeth Canonicall And what Spirit is to iudge which is scripture which not you shall haue examined hereafter at large 48. Concerning the distinction of works into some that are commanded others that are not which distinction you reiect Wee beleeue that there are some works not commanded yet proposed by way of Counsell for attaining of greater perfection You say no Matth 9. v. 21. Euangelicall Luth. de Vot monast Caluin 4. Inst ca. 13. The scripture If thou wilt he perfect goe sell the tbings which thou hast and giue to the poore and thou shalt haue treasure in heauen and come followe me Counsells 1. Cor. 7. v. 25. Ibid. v. 40. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the Apostle Concerning virgines I haue not a commandement from our lord but counsell I giue And againe She the vnmaried shall be more blessed if she remaine so according to my Counsell Wee beleeue that single life consecrated vnto God is better then wedlocke You say No. Luth. Serm. de Matr. Caluin in 1. Cor. 7. The scripture He which ioyneth his virgin in matrimonie doth well and he which ioyneth her not doth better 1. Cor. 7. v. 38. Wee beleeue that Religious profession vnder vowe is according to the word of God Single life Isay 19.21 Vowes You say No. Luth de Vot Monast Calu. 4. Inst c. 13. The scripture They shall vowe vowes to our lord and shall paie them And we beleeue they are in conscience bound to pay their vowes You say no. Luth. Cal. cit The scripture Vowe ye and render to our lord God Psal 75.12 Let me note here by the way that you discouer your Church not be Gods since it contemnes these things which God foretould would be in his and approoues as good and if the thing were to be tried by the Spirit in any man any man of iudgment would rather acknowledge the Spirit of S. Bennet and S. Francis which God by miracles recorded by saincts allso hath witnessed to be from him then your spirit vnderstanding this scripture oppositelie to their spirit 49. As for the commandements Wee beleeue that he which will attaine to euerlastiÌ„g life must keepe them Mat. 19.17 Psal 14.2 CommaundemeÌ„ts kept You say no. Luth. in 3. Gal. Calu. in 5. Act. The scripture If thou wilt enter into life keepe the commandements lord who shall dwell in thy tabernacle or who shall rest in thy holie hill he that walketh without Spot and worketh iustice You say they are intollerable Lut. de Libert Christ Calu. Antidot Conc. Trid. sess 6. c. 12. wee say no. The scripture His commandements are not heauie wee beleeue that they may be and haue bene obserued 1. Io. 5.3 You say No. Luth. in 4. Gal. calu in 3. Rom. The scriptute Zacharie and Elizabeth were both iust before God Luk. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Psal· 18. v. 8.12 walking in all the commandements and iustifications of our lord without blame The lawe of our lord is immaculate coÌ„uerting soules c. the iudgments of our lord be true for thy seruaÌ„t keepeth them in keeping them there is much Reward And of King Iosias the scripture saith that he returned to our Lord in all his hart Psal 118.55 4. Kings 23. v. 5. and in all his sowle and in all his power according to all the law of Moyses Thow sawest a fewe names in Sardis which haue Not defiled their garmeÌ„ts aÌ„d they shall walke with me in whites for they are worthy Apoc. 3.4 I must adde one more for your coÌ„fort who bragge that you knowe God better and are more familiarlie admitted to his secret counsells and dearer to the spirit then other men 1. Io. 2 v. 3.4 c. In this wee knowe that wee haue knowne him if wee obserue his commandements He that sayeth he knoweth him ProtestaÌ„ts liers the Apostles kept it Io. 17.6 and keepeth not his commandements is a lier and the truth is not in him but he that keepeth his word in him in Verie Deede the charitie of God is perfited in this wee knowe that wee be in him 50 Wee beleeue that there is iustice inhereÌ„t in men Dan. 6.22 Iustice inhereÌ„r 1. Io. 3.7 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is such in the sight and iudgment of God You say No. Luth. in 3. Gal. calu· in 8. Rom. Daniel in the scripture Before him God iustice hath bene found in me He that doth iustice is iust
euen as he christ is iust Moreouer you cannot deny that the Apostles and many other haue had charitie or loue Rom. 13 10 and loue is vitall and inherent and is the fulnes of the lawe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ibid. v. 9. Rom. 5.5 and He that loueth his neighbour hath Fulfilled the lawe The Charitie of God is powered foorth in our harts by the holie Ghost which is giuen vs. Wee beleeue that a man which hath charitie may by Gods grace auoid sinne You say No Lut. in 2. Gal. calu de Lib. ar l. 1. all his actions you say are sinnes The scripture 1. Io 3.9 Sinne. eschued 1. Io. 5.18 â— habit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euery one that is borne of God committeth not sinne because his seede abideth in him and againe euery one which is borne of God sinneth not but the generation of God preserueth him and the wicked one toucheth him not 51. Libertie or power to make choise of good to Saluation by the assistance of Gods grace aÌ„d to eschewe that which is bad Allso to make choise of the better in good things occurring wee acknowledge You denie Lut. art 36. Cal. CoÌ„f. fâ—d p. 108. 2. Inst c. 3. Deut. 30. v. 15.19 Libertie The scripture I haue set before thee this day life and good aÌ„d coÌ„trariwise death and euill that thou maist loue our lord thy God aÌ„d walke in his waies aÌ„d keepe his coÌ„maÌ„dements c. I haue proposed vnto you life and death blessing and cursing Choose therefore life that both thou maiest liue and thy seede 1. Cor. 7. â—7 And the Apostle He that hath determined in his hart being setled not hauing Necessitie but hauing Power of his owne Will and hath iudged this in his hart to keepe his virgin doth well Therefore he that ioyneth his virgin in Matrimonie doth well and he that ioyneth her not doth better Let me adde one more out of Genesis Gen. 4 7. Vide S. Aug. l. 15. de ciuit c 7. Ps 118. v. 112. S. Ierom â— 8. Sept. ibid. 1. Cor. 9 2â— The lust thereof shall be vnder thee and thou shalt haue Dominion ouer it wee beleeue that good works may be done in conteÌ„plation of a reward or crowne You say No. Luth. in Fest OO SS Calu. in Antid sess 6. c. 16. Dauid I haue inclined my hart to do thy iustifications foreuer for Reward aÌ„d the The Apostle Euery one that striueth for maistrie refraineth himselfe from all things and they certes that they may receaue a corruptible crowne but wee an incorruptible wee beleeue that meÌ„ haue reward for their works giuen them by Gods iustice You say No. Luth in 2. Gal. Caluin in 4. Rom. Matt. 16.27 Reward and Merit Apoc. 22.12 The Scripture The sonne of man shall come in the glorie of his Father with his Angells and then will he Render to euerie one according to his works Behold I come quicklie and my Reward is with me to Render to euery man according to his works Thou sawest a fewe names in Sardis which haue not defiled their garmente and they shall walke with me in whites Apoc. 3.4 because they are Worthie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because they merit and deserue it 2. Tim. 4.8 And the Apostle There is laid vs for me a Crowne of Iustice which our lord will Render to me in that day a iuste Iudge and not onelie to me but to them allso that loue his comming Wee beleeue that a man may increase in Iustice according to that in the Reuelation he that is iust let him be iustified yet and let the holie be sanctified yet Apoc. 22.11 And wee beleeue that men are not iustified by faith onely Ia 2.24 workes iustifie but allso by works done by the Assistance and helpe of Gods grace You say By faith only Luth. in 2. Gal. Cal. in Antid sess 6. c. 9. The Scripture A man is iustified by works and not by faith onelie 52. VVee beleeue that vppon S. Peeter by grace made a Rocke the Church was built You say no. Luth. in 16. Matth. Caluin ibid. The Scripture Mat. 16.18 Primacie Thou art Peeter a rocke and vppon this rocke will I build my Church In the Syriacke in which laÌ„guage our Sauiour spake the thinge is yet cleerer for in both places for that wee reade Peeter and Rocke is the same word Cephas thus thou art Cephas and vppon this Cephas will I build my Church Moreouer the circumstances of the text and the connexion of the speache doe conuince that the Church was built on Peeter and the Fathers vnpartiall Iudges so vnderstood it witnesse your owne men for here I am not to alleage Antiquity Dâ—naeus Dan. Conâ— 3.16.277 pessimè Zanc. de Eccles c. 9. c. 8. col 94 The Fathers interpreted naughtilie those words of Christ Matth. 16. Thou art Peeter c. of the person of Peeter Zanchius another greate Protestant The Fathers exposition vppon this Rocke that is vppon Peeter is not admitted and Luther the great Apostle of Protestancie Here all Lut. in 2. Pet. c. 5. fol 490. either Fathers or Doctors as many as hetherto haue interpreted Scriptures haue stambled as when that of Matth. 16. Thou art Peeter c. They interprete of the Pope Wee beleeue that one of the Apostles peculiarly was made Pastor of the Church You say No. Luth. in Assert art 25. Calu. 4. Inst c. 6. The Scripture Peeter feede My Sheepe Io. 21.18 Wee beleeue that the Apostles and their Successors had power to forgiue and to retaine sinnes You say No. Calu. 3. Inst c. 3. 4. c. 19. Luther here so ouerlasheth oÌ„the affirmatiue side that in his booke de Clauibus he auoucheth the keies to apertaine to all Christians equallie euery way Omnibus modis Luthers Ghostly Father And in another place de abrog mi. pr. he houldes that if the Deuil should absolue it were valid Dum vitant stulti vitia c. In the scripture power to forgiue sinnes I do not say to declare them forgiuen or hidden and not imputed as you mince it but to forgiue and detaine Sinnes is giuen to Men only and to some Io 20. v. 22 Absolution not to all The scripture Whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen them and whose you shall retaine they are retained Wee beleeue that power was giuen to S. Peeter and to the Church to release men by way of indulgence from temporall punishmeÌ„t remaining due for sinne You say No. Luth. Cap. Babil Caluin l. vnic Inst cap. 9. The scripture VVhatsoeuer thou Peeter shalt binde on earth shall be bound allso in the heauens Matt 16 19 Indulgences and VVhatsoeuer thou shalt loose in earth it shall be loosed allso in the heauens 53. In the matter of the Eucharist the ProtestaÌ„t schoole is diuided about the reall Presence and you follow Caluine So do Iewell Perkins Rainolds Wittaker BilsoÌ„ White c. And howsoeuer some of your
was yet with you that all things must needs be fullfilled which are written in the lawe of Moyses and the prophets and the psalmes of me then he opened their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the scriptures and he said vnto them that so it is written and so it behoued Christ to suffer and to rise againe the third daie from the dead and penance to be preached in his name and remission of sinnes to all Nations begining at Ierusalem I neede not adde any more for by this is aboundantlie showne that the Christian Church was by the intentiō of God the Father and of his sonne Iesus Christ to be in the communion of all Natiōs and Catholique in this positiue sense and that all this infalliblie was to be and would be fullfilled And thus much noe Iewe nor Christian turne about which waie he will can denie 7· Now further least one should foolishlie conceaue that in the primitiue tyme it had gotten to this amplitude fullie and then decaied I proceede and shewe that the same Church is vniuerfall for tyme likewise and indeed this tergiuersation might be refuted by experience because the world knowes that many Nations came into the Church since that tyme which is S. Augustines argument against the Donatists who thought by that meanes to deceaue the Catholiques and delude their arguments of vniuersalitie but here I will prooue it by Scripture And first I might vrge to this purpose the testimonies allreadie cited both because the extent of the Church vnto all Nations doth consequentlie reach vnto all tymes Perpetuitie all Nations and people being not at one tyme conuerted and Christian as allso because some doe expresse a perpetuitie but the Scripture being full I will adde more God the Father in the Psalmes speaking of his sonne amongst other things saith Psal 88. v. 28.29.37 38 I will put him as the first begotten high aboue the kings of the earth and I will keepe my mercie vnto him foreuer and my testament faithfull vnto him I will put his seede for euer and euer and his throne as the daies of heauen c. His seede shall continue for euer and his throne as the sunne in my sight and as the moone perfect foreuer Isa 62. v. 3 4. And of the Church thou shalt be a crowne of glorie in the hād of our Lord and a diademe of a kingdome in the hand of thy God thou shalt be no more called Forsaken and thy land shall be no more called Desolate but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because it hath well pleased our Lord in thee and thy land shall be inhabited I will make a league of peace to them an euerlasting couenant shall be to them Ezech. 37. v. 26.27.28 and I will forme them and will giue my sanctification in the middest of them foreuer and my tabernacle shall be in them and I will be their God and they shall be my people and the Gentiles shall knowe that I am the Lord the Sanctifier of Israel when my sanctification shall be in the middest of them for euer The God of heauen will raise vp a kingdome Dan. 2. v. 44. that shall not be dissipated for euer and this kingdome shall not be deliuered to an other people and it shall breake in peeces and shall consume all those kingdomes and it selfe shall stand for euer To which the newe Testamēt doth consent Luk. 1. v. 33 Mat. 16. v. 19. he Christ shall raigne in the house of Iacob for euer and of his kingdome there shall be noe end Vppon this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it 28. v. 20. I am with you all daies euen to the consummation of the world Ioh. 14. v. 15 I will aske my father and he will giue you another paraclete that he may abide S. Aug. de vnit Eccl. c. 13. Mat. 13. v. 30. with you foreuer c. The like is in many other places amongst which S. Augustine doth vrge that of S. Matthew let both growe till haruest because our Sauiour doth expound himselfe by the field to haue vnderstoode the world by the good seed the children of that kingdome v. 37. c. by the cockle the children of the wicked one by the haruest the end of the world so that both are to growe vntill then Lastlie that I leaue not the Apostle of the Gentiles out in this busines He Christ gaue some Apostles Ephes 4. v 11.12 and some Prophets and other some Euangelists and other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saincts vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all in the Vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God 8. This congregation Vnitie Io. 10.16 or Church notwithstanding the foresaid greatnesse ad extension is but one being one fold and one bodie vnder one Pastor and one head Iesus Christ Ephes 4 v. 16. of whome saith the Apostle the whole bodie compact and knit together by all iuncture of subministration according to the operation into the measure of euerie member maketh the increase of the bodie vnto the edifying of it selfe in Charitie By which words wee are taught likewise that this bodie is heterogeneall that is See more of this in the 3. Book 6 c consisting of diuers kinds of parts as mans bodie is whereunto this mysticall bodie is compared hauing in it eies mouth feete and the like in proportion 1. Cor. 12 which may be vnderstoode more fullie out of the Epistle of the same Apostle to the Corinthians 9. And thus farre I haue proceeded in the Scripture shewing you there the Church of God built on a rocke against which the gates of hell cannot preuaile a perpetuall kingdome if you beleeue God that shall not be dissipated corrupted deliuered to another people that shall stand for euer shall haue no end a people that shall be no more forsaken no more desolate They shall haue the Spirit with them abiding with them not departing from them and Iesus Christ with them all dayes to the consummation of the world and the Sanctification of God in the middest of them for euer Into their communion shall come the streingth of Nations the multitude of the sea all kings and people and tongues all the families of the Gentiles all Nations what soeuer They shall be dilated to the East West North and South and shall be multiplied as the dust of the earth as the sand of the Sea as the starres in heauen They shall be as the sunne in the sight of God and as the daies of heauen They shall haue pastors and Doctors to the worlds end the word of God shall neuer out of their mouthes and thy shall not hold their peace daie nor night for euer 10. Compare this now to your Church to your companie which wee haue searched and
hunted after in the former booke but could not get tidings of in all the world before Luther I in the meane tyme will on further to looke out this Church of God But first I would haue you to note that as in the naturall bodie there are many superfluous materiall parts of flesh fatte and some other eauen in the hands eares and eies as you see in men that are grosse which parts though they be coherent now are not resumed all in the resurrection because they would extēd and increase the bodie vnto more then the iust bignes of the man and beyond the originall proportion of the soule So in this mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ are many parts which will not rise with it vnto glorie and therfore are multiplied aboue the number which is written in the booke of life yet being called as many are called fewe chosen for a tyme they doe beleeue but they fall againe before they die Another thing you may note if you please that as the naturall bodie receauing the sowle when the principall parts are prepared doth growe and flourish and afterwards looseth againe the exteriour beautie in ould age So the Church receaued the Spirit when by the instruction of the sonne of God the chiefe parts the Apostles were prepared and then did extend it selfe in bignes and flourished but in her ould age in the daies of Antichrist she will loose her exteriour beautie and maiestie and be greeuouslie afflicted and persecuted for a * The Church in the tyme of her extreame persecution will be visible for persecution it selfe is an euident argument of visibility as in England you see At the same tyme she will be allso Catholique and spred ouer the earth as S. Iohn telleth in the twentith Chapter of his reuelation where of the persecutors he saith they ascended vpon the breadth of the earth and compassed the campe of the saincts and the beloued cittie Vpon which words cleere enough in themselues S. Augustine in his bookes De cluitate Dei writeth thus They are not said to come into one place as though the campe of the Saincts or the beloued Cittie should be in some one place since this indeed is nothing but the Church of Christ spred ouer the whole world And therefore wheresoeuer this Church shall be then which shall be in all Nations for so much is insinuated by the latitude of the earth there shall be Gods beloued Cittie there shall she be beseiged by all her enimies for they allso shall be in all Nations with her So he li. 20. c. 11. Moreouer that extreme persecution of Antichrist shall be very short as enduring some three yeeres and a halfe which the Scripture allso hath declared He Antichrist shall thinke that he can change tymes and lawes and they shall be deliuered into his hāds euē to a tyme tymes ād halfe a tyme. Dan 7.25 Power was giuen to it the Beast to worke two ād fortie monethes Ap. 13.5 They shall tread vnder foote the holy Cittie two and fortie monthes Ap. 11.2 From the tyme when the Continuall Sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination shall be set vp 1290. Dayes Dan. 12.11 See allso Ap. 12. v. 6. 14. tyme as S. Iohn doth foretell But now to finde this Church THE SECOND CHAPTER The Catholique Church assigned 11. HAuing seene the picture of the Catholique Church as in Scripture it hath beene drawne by God himselfe it is not hard for him that will cast an eie vpon the world and compare this picture with the communities he finds there to discouer among all Churches and congregations which is the Catholique or to learne it if he will but aske the question of any man For all S. Aug. de vera relig c 7. and euen Heretiques ād Schismatiques as S. Augustine longe agoe did obserue when they talke not with those of their owne sect but with others do whether they will or no call no other Catholique but the Catholicke because they cannot otherwise be vnderstood vnles they designe her by that name which the whole world calles her by Men generally being demaunded which are Catholiques point at vs and being asked which Church is the Catholique do direct vnto that which is in cōmunion with the Roman See This was knowne to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Paul this was acknowledged to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Augugustine and S. Gregory and euer since and is now Aske all Christians such only excepted as your selues condemne for heretiques and they will tell you so Aske Iewes and Pagans and they will tell you this is the Church of Iesus Christ aske your fellowes White Cowell and such others and they will send you to this 12. If a man should haue come to Luther when he did looke round about for companie and found none of his opinion and should haue said vnto him Sir Luther in the Bible there is an ample description of a perperuall Catholique Church I pray you which is it that I may be Christian in communion of that Church Your Doctor for his hart could haue directed to no other then to that Congregation which then was in communion with the Bysshop of Rome For to you he could not haue directed him because poore men you were not in the world as yet with your Religion nor euer deserued the name of Catholique as in the former booke to your confusion hath beene seene To haue said that he a sole man was the Catholique Church which the Scripture speakes of had bene to multiplie himselfe ouer the world into many Nations and into millions of men at once To the Iewes or Pagans he could with no face haue sent him and had he done so they would haue giuen him the lie It rests therefore that Luther and so Caluin so Iewell must haue directed him to vs and haue tould him the Catholique Church is that which hath and still had communion with the Roman See 13. I knowe some of your fellowes would send a man to the Grecians and some further to the Aethiopians but these are not Protestants as the Grecians declare them selues and by the Aethiopians doctrine he may see that is not blind Neither hath the Grecian beleefe in those things wherein they differ from the Church of Rome euer bene in the generall communion of the Christian world and therefore Grecisme is not nor euer was Catholique and the same it is of Aethiopians and all others Another shift you haue and this is to say the Catholique Church is inuisible among the Romans the Grecians Aethiopians Germans and others but lies hid This would trouble the man surely for how should he be instructed by her and imbrace her communion vnles he could find her and how should he finde her if she did not appeare but were inuisible moreouer he would say that the Church which the Scripture hath described is there also declared to be perpetually visible with gates euer open the
Pastors alwayes exercising their holy function and Gods word in their mouth euer for this Church he doth inquire shewe him this Church and he will trouble you no longer for the rest he shall haue there A third shift is to send him to the primitiue Church and to tell him that indeede then was this communion with all Nations this ample Church which the Scripture doth commend was then but since it decaied and now you are building it againe This iourney were to longe for him he is not able to reade bookes otherwise he would not trouble you nor your Congregation at all for he should easilie find the thing himselfe wherefore that he may be directed by the iudgment of other men better seene in that busines he desires to know which aÌ„d where is the preseÌ„t Catholique Church and by that Church he will be directed about former tymes he desires therefore D. Luther to tell him where the Catholique Church is now for such a perpetuall one the Bible speakes of This question must be answered the man that doth aske it may be any that is in England for example and it might haue bene answered in Lurhers time who was your Master for which reason I tie the question to that tyme for the more perspicuitie and leaue the man with you to answer for your Master 14. Your fellowes finding here no way to flie the question do confesse that the knowne Church of the world in Luthers tyme that which had communion with the Pope was the Catholique Church and labour to finde her in errour and Apostasie So White Field and other of your companions so Luther so Caluin Of errours I will speake hereafter I looke now for the Church only because this is to be found first before we dispute of further matters And thus I vrge That Church which all the world doth say is the catholique church wee likewise Arg. 1 if wee will not be ridiculouslie sensles must beleeue to be the Catholique church as wee must beleeue that is Rome which the world VVee professe the Church of Rome it selfe in all ages to haue ben the visibâ—e Church of God So white Defence c. 41. in the name of his fellowes wee most firmely beleeue all the Churches in the VVorld wherein our Fathers liued and died to haue ben the true Churches of God in which vndoubtedly saluation was to be found Field Church l. 3. c 8 and c. 47. Wee neuer doubted but that the Churches wherein those holy men S. Bernard S. Dominick c. did liue and die were the true Churches of God and held the sauing profession of heauenly truth See him allso in the sixt Chap. of the same Booke Wee confesse that all Christian good is in the Papacie and that from thence it came downe to vs. Luth. Epist cont Anabapt ibid. I say further that in the Papacie is the true Christianitie yea the true kernell of Christianity and vppon the 28. of Genes Wee Confesse the Church to be among the Papists for they haue Baptisme Absolution the text of the Gospell and there are many godly among them Wee deny not that the Churches remaine vnder the Popes tyraenny but they are such as with sacrilegious impietie he hath profaned c. Caluin 4. Inst c. 3. and vppon 2 Thessall 2. he confesseth the Church coÌ„municating with the Pope to be Temple and Sanctuary of God sayth is Rome and that London which the world sayth is London But the whole world sayth that the company of Christians in communion with the See of Rome is the catholique church for so your fellowes so your Masters so wee so Iewes so Pagans and no other can be found wherefore since Gods word and promise of a perpetuall and vniuersall Church must needs be true wee must beleeue that it is this 15. Moreouer the Religion which you call Papistrie is now spred ouer the face of the earth in allmost all Nations and was confessedly the generall Religion of the christian world before Luther for many hundred Arg. 2 yeares together wherefore this Religion is catholique aÌ„d this companie the catholique church of God You answere first that the GreciaÌ„s agreed not with vs. But this makes not for Protestancie And moerouer in your sense it is false for though they haue not beene coÌ„tinuallie in our communion all this tyme yet in this time they haue beene in our communion And so haue the ArmeniaÌ„s aÌ„d others too which is all that I haue said and sufficient for to demonstrate that our communioÌ„ hath beene catholique in the tyme I haue spokeÌ„ of And if you will pleade for theÌ„ that allso their Schisme hath bene somtymes thus catholique I answere as before that Grecisme was neuer generally the faith of Christendome nor any other faith whatsoeuer but that only which wee professe not the Grecian I say not the Aethiopian not the Armenian not the Berengarian the Waldesian the Lutheran the Caluinian none at all and herein the Histories of all Countries and the memories of all Nations beare me witnesse Secondly you say that Mahomet hath seduced a great part of the world and so restrayned the latitude which wee pretend Whereunto I answere first notwithstanding Mahomete and his coÌ„panie that the communion of the christian world hath beene with vs and with no other which is all I desire I answere secondly that our communitie hath gained more in the meane tyme then euer the PagaÌ„ tooke away by an infinite increase both in this old and allso in the newe world Witnesse all those Nations in Europe which haue beene conuerted since that Impostor came besides the dailie and admirable increase in India Iaponia Brasile China and other places You answere thirdlie that all thosâ— worlds of people haue beene in errour But this is impertinent for here I looke only for the church that wee may finde it and when we haue found it we will inquire then whether it hath erred or no. And that this is the Catholique Church is euident because no other is or hath beene in the generall communion of Nations but only this nor euer any for the latitude of communion equall to it 16. I goe now futther and prescribe against you for our church and Religion thus That Arg. 3 Faith which in the Christian world hath beene generally beleeued to be diuine Quod vniuersa tenet Ecclesia nec Concilijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur S. Aug. l 4. de Bapt. c. 24. and looking vpwards towardes the Apostles tyme no other origen of it can be found is verilie to be beleeued to be such But such is the faith of this coÌ„munitie for it hath beene the generall beleefe of the Christian World as I haue shewed and that no other origen of it can be found I prooue cleerly because whensoeuer you or any other begin later we shewe easilie that it was before And this because you persist without ground in your
Catholique reader to turne his eie aside a while till they be past I will begin before Luther when our Church generally was acknowledged for true by the ChristiaÌ„ world aÌ„d her doctrine beleeued aÌ„d will goe vpward to see Whether the Confession of your men for the generall acknowledgment of our Church and doctrine by the Christian world will reach to S. Gregories time or no From thence to proceede afterwards to the Apostles with the vniuersality of the same Church and doctrine will be easie First therefore by your learned men it is confessed that Papistrie to vse Arg. 5 your word was the generall Religion of the Christian world before Luther came In so much that a Tota Occidentalis Ecclesia defendit quicquid impietatuÌ„ detestamur Caluin Resp ad Versip p. 354. Caluin affirmes all the Westerne Churches to haue defended it and b. Discessionem à toto mundo facere coacti sumus Id. Ep. 141. that his separatioÌ„ was froÌ„ all the world c. white Defence c. 37. p. 136. The Papacie or articles wherein wee refuse the Church of Rome are a leprosie c. White saith it was a leprosie breeding in the Church so vniuersally that there was no visible company of people appearing in the world free from it d. Benedict Morgestein tract de Eccl. p. 145 and he saith there further that it is ridiculous to thinke that in the tyme before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receaue it from them Morgestern The whole Christian world knowes that before Luther all Churches were ouer whelmed with more then Cymerian darknes e. Bancroft Censure c. 4. BaÌ„croft The Priests and all the people too were drowned in the filth of Poperie from top to toe f. Iewell serm on the 11. c. Luk. Iewell The whole world people Priests and Princes were ouer whelmed with ignorance All Schooles Priests Bysshops and Princes of the world were by oath obliged to the Pope g. Daniel Camierus ep 49. Camierê° Errour possessed not one litle part or other but Apostasie auerted the whole Body from Christ h. Brocard in c. 2. Apoc. fol. 41. cognitio Christi defuit in omnibus singulis suis membris VVhit Cont. 4. q 5. c. 3. p. 684. Brocard When the preaching of the Gospell and the first assault made vppon the Papacie was approued in Luther the knowledge of Christ was wanting in all and euery one of his members i Whittaker In tymes past no Religion but the Papisticall had place in the Churches And. k. Id. Cont. 2. q. 3. p. 467. per omnes visibiles Ecclesias grassata est That Antichristian plague hath gone thorough all partes of the world and all visible Churches Thus in generall To runne thorough the particulars were infinite They say l. Luther serm de simulacr fol 277. Altero abusu imaginum totus orbis oppletus est The whole world was filled with the abuse of images That m Calu 2. Instit c 2. §. 4. Ad vulgus etiam ipsum omnes hoc principio imbuti sunt praeditum esse hominem libero arbitrio All to the very common people were imbued with this principle that maÌ„ hath free will that n Confess Aug. c. 20. Fateri omnes necesse est de fidei iustitia fuisse altissimum silentiuÌ„ Magburg praefat Cenur 13. extincta est doctrina de fide tantùm sine operibus Calu. Resp ad Sadolet p. 125. Dogma istud de iustificatione per solam fidem quod in religione summum erat dicimus fuisse à vobis ex hominum memoria deletum the principall point of Religion iustification by faith only was blotted out of memory that o. Bucerus li dâ— concord p. 660. Hic error de reali praesentia loquitur apud totius orbis Christianos inualuit the errour so they speake of the reall presence preuailed amonge all the Christians of the world that p. Gualt in praefat Com. in ep ad Rom All the world erred in that article of the reall presence that q. Calu. 4. Instit c. 18. §. 18. Missae abominatio in calice aureo propinata omnes Reges terrae populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim suae salutis in hac vna statuerint the Masse made drunke all the kinges and people of the earth from the first to the last that r. Luth. Captiuit Babil fol. 68. scarce any thing was more beleeued then that the Masse was a Sacrifice that Å¿ Calu. Respons ad Sadolet p. 130 all endeuoured to merit to satisfie c. And to summe all vp in a word they confesse our Religion to haue preuailed ouer their supposed Church and Religion so farre t. Luth. Capt. Babil fol. 77. Id. in Psalm grad fol. 568 in 2. Gal. fol. 306. that the Protestant faith was abolished and extinguished That u. Magburg praefat Centur. 5. w Calu. 4. Instit c. 2. §. 2. Sub Papismo doctrina citra quam Christianismus non constat tota sepulâ—a explosa vnder the Papacie there was an extreme abolishing of the true Protestant Religion and the diuine word that vnder the Papacie the DOCTRINE without which ProtestaÌ„t Christianitie doth not subsist was ALL reiected aÌ„d buried This was the state of our Church before Luther and not for a small tyme but for nine hundred yeare yeauen from the tyme of Boniface and Gregorie the Great All the knowne Churches in the world all that tyme frequenting and beleeuing Masse confessing to Priests praying to Saincts and for the deade beleeuing iustification by workes doÌ„ne in grace aÌ„d the merit of theÌ„ satisfaction traditions religious vowes c. and the communion of the Pope was with the Christian world generally all that tyme. This you might knowe particularly froÌ„ tyme to tyme out of Ecclesiasticall Histories if you would reade theÌ„ but of histories I am not to speake now let vs goe on with the confessioÌ„ of your men for the generall acknowledgment of our ReligioÌ„ and the generall pouerty or not existencie of your supposed Church Speake Perkins During the space of nine hundred yeeres the Popish heresie hath spred it selfe ouer the whole earth Bale From Phocas who liued a. 602. till the renuing of the Gospell the doctrine of Christ was for that space amonge Idiotes and in lurking holes and after Gregorie the purity of Protestant doctrine perisshed d. Powell Confid Pap. reas p. 105. Powell I graunt that from the yeere of Christ 605. the professant company of Poperie hath bene very visible and conspicuous e. Fulke Ans Countâ— Cath. p 36. Fulke The Religion of the Papists came in and preuailed in the yeare of our lord 607. aÌ„d so vniuersally that the reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was a. 607. f. Hutter de sacrif Missat p 377. Libenter concedo Idolomaniam pontificiam cuius
haue bene confirmed to Bonifacius by Phocas But this will not hinder my argument for it is one thinge to declare and second an other thing to institute the institution of the Primacie you haue in the Gospell Ma◠〈…〉 18. Io. 21.18 S. Hierom. ep ad Dam Theod. ep ad Renat Presb Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. Touching the existēcie of our Religion in the tyme of Constantine See more in the Protestant Apol tract 2 c. ◠Sect. 3. the acknowledgment you haue in Antiquitie as I will declare hereafter and the exercise before the tyme of Boniface is well knowne On this Rocke will I build my Church said our Sauiour who commended his flocke peculiarly to S. Peeter I quoth S. Ierom to Damasus then Pope Following none formost but Christ doe communicate with thy Holines that is with the chaire of Peeter Vppon that Rocke I knowe the Church was built And Theodoret a Grecian speaking of that See That holy Seate hath the gouerment of all the Churches in the world You heard before what S. Leo said of it and you knowe how he did exercise this power Only because your fellowes are wōt to obiect a speach of S. Cregorie not content to take the interpretation of it from his owne mouth I put you heare in mind that he did exercise this power ouer all the Christian Churches in his tyme and this you haue noted by D. Sanders in his Monarchie Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. and not answered yet He shewes there I say out of S. Gregories owne writings how he did exercise the foresaid power ouer the Bysshops and Churches of Italie Sicilie Corsica Sardinia Africke Spaine Ireland England France Dalmatia Greece Corcyra and that the Patriarcks haue confessed Subiection to the Church of Rome Lastly wee haue the confession of your men here cited in this an gument for the generall obedience to the Pope euer since Constantine which is sufficient for this purpose howsoeuer the Grecians might some tymes beare themselues in some occasions of which I am to speake in an other place 23. A seuenth Arg. It is manifest by the scriptures aboue cited that the Catholique Church is perpetuall and cannot faile and Arg. 7 this by Scripture is meant of the visible Church whereof I haue giuen ample demōstration in the begining of this second Booke which I desire the reader to peruse and marke Now there is no Christian Church at all that hath bene petpetuall but this which I speake of Therefore this indiuiduall Church is the Catholique Church To See the truth of that I haue assumed let vs looke vpon the rest The Pagans come not in question because their Church is not Christian nor the Iewes for the same reason though they farre exceede you in this point of perpetuitie The Grecians they were in our communion the first thousand yeares and since haue bene neither was Grecisme beleeued allwaies or euer the faith of Nations and communion with you they haue refused Your Church and Religion hath not bene perpetuall as in the former booke wee haue seene to your griefe Another that can callenge there is not not the Aethiopian nor the Maronite nor any whatsoeuer The Roman hath euer beene and her communion euer bene vniuersall therefore this greate and ample Societie is the true Church of God 24. An eigth Argum. That is the Catholique Church whereūto come all Natiōs ād out of which all Heretiques do goe But into the communion of that companie which I haue Arg. 8 named that is into the communion of the See of Rome and the companie of Christians communicating with it all Nations hetherto haue come and out of it all Heretiques haue gone Therefore this is and hath euer bene the Catholique Church The proposition is cleere by the promises related in the beginīg that all Nations should be conuerted to the Church and her gates be euer open day and night to receiue them c. 1. Is 60. S. Aug. de Sym. 6. l. 1. c. 5. and as for Heretiques it is well knowne that they are boughes lopped of the great vine and that that heresie is a corruption of the true faith The assumption you haue at large in Ecclesiasticall Histories and you denie not but in the Primitiue tyme this companie was the Church Baronius Spondan auctar Iarricius Magdeburg Osiander Pappu◠See Prot. Apol. tr 2. c. 1. s 4. that Nations from Infidelitie were conuerted to it and that Heretikes all went out of the same companie Since vnto the same haue bene conuerted the Germanes Vandalls Polonians Danes Hungarians Noruegians Brasilians Indians and diuers others and to your companie or religion immediatelie from infidelitie no Nation at all Out of the same great companie haue gone all Heretickes since that tyme and among them those who in part were your predecessors Iconoclastes Berengarians Waldenses Albigenses Lollardes Hussites 25. Beare with me if I repeate the same againe Arg. 9 for a nienth argument The Romane See and other congregations in that communion were the Church or the Catholicke Congregation in the tyme of Saint Paul And the same congregation 300. yeares after was still the Catholicke Church and had the communion of the Christian world as you know by the Generall Councell of Nice Into it came Schythiās Iberians Armenians Hunnes and others Out went the Marcionites Nouatians Manichees Arianes Betwixt the fourth and fift age was the Coūcell of Calcedō and in that tyme likewise the foresaid cōmuniō was the Church Catholique ād their communion was with the christian world as by that councell of calcedon ād the Epistles of Leo the great who was President of it all men knowe Into this communion came Scottes French and other Nations Out went Pelagians and Nestorians after whose cōmunion in the Aethiopians you seeme to thirst In the next ages followīg which were the sixt ād seauēth were the Generall assemblies at Cōstātinople One in the tyme of Vigilius being the fifte Generall Councell The other in the tyme of Agatho which you haue in the Tōes of Councelles with most ample subscriptiō of the Bysshops which were in thē and by these Generall councelles which did also receaue the former it is euidēt that in those tymes also the cōpanie of Christians in cōmuniō with the See of Rome was the Catholicke Church ād that the communion of those Popes ād those Coūcelles was with the world of Christians Into it came the Pictes Gothes Barbarians and our Countrie Out were cast the Tritheites Monothelites and other such excrementes After those Councelles Followed others One at Nice in the tyme of Adrian the first Another at Constantinople Adrian the second being then Byshop of Rome By which Councelles it is cleere that the communion of the Roman See was then also generall and this companie the Church of God They did also receaue the former Councelles and noe communion was Generall in Christendome or continued by Vniuersall Succession but onelie this Into this companie came the Frisians Hassites Russians Out
of sinne out of the soule so that it cometh in to the Church purer then the Sunne and there findes the breade of life breade of Angells the medicine of immortalitie the fouÌ„taine of all good and consummation of Sacraments the holie Eucharist to feede vppon Euery where there are Altars wherevppon is Sacrificed vnbloodilie the Lambe of God that taketh away the sinne of the world according as IESVS our high Priest Priest for euer according to the Order of Melchisedech did institute and ordaine In the way to these Altars are Tribunalls wherein those doe sitte who can open Heauen to the PeniteÌ„t where the Priest doth forgiue trespasses comitted against God Heauen approuing the Sentence of a man I will giue to thee Peeter Matt. 16. 18. the keies of the kingdome of heauen Whatsoeuer you shall loose in earth shall be loosed also in heauen whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen them Ioan. 20. and whose you shall retaine they are retained Heere are the Doctors Euangelists Prophets and Pastors of whom wee reade in S. Paul Heere are Isaies Kings and Queenes Abrahams Starrs the Temples of the Holie Ghost and Gods Elect. All Tribes and People and tongues all Nations all the ends of the Earth doe come hither and adore in this Mount of our Lord in this House of God Heere the Holie Ghost still abideth illuminating directing Sanctifying and before him a hundred thousand harts burne euer in the flames of diuine loue Here some are weeping for their sinnes others meditating on the Passion others teaching and instructing the people others defining in generall Councell others conuerting Nations others adoring the souueraigne will of God others suffering for his sake In the Quire innumerable tongues are imployed daie and night in the praise of their Creator and Redeemer And round about are Watchmen that neuer hold their peace Lift vp thine eyes o IERVSALEM round about and see all these are gathered together they are come vnto thee Thy somes are come from a farre and thy daugthers are risen from thy side See and abound let thy hart maruaile and be dilated for the multitude of the Sea is conuerted and the streingth of Gentiles comes vnto thee Enlarge the place of thy tent and stretch out the skinnes of thy Tabernacles spare not make long thy cords and fasten thy nailes behold thou doest penetrate to the right hand and to the left thou art dilated to the East and to the West and to the North and to the South The Gentiles doe walke by thy light and Kings in the brightnes of thy rising Kings are thy nourcing Fathers and Queenes thy Nources The children of them that humbled thee come crouching now aÌ„d adore the stepps of thy feete Thy God hath established thee his throne as the dayes of heauen and hath made thee the pride of worlds a ioy vnto generation and generation thou art a crowne of glorie in the hand of our Lord and the Diademe of a kingdome in the hand of thy God 50. This Church the SPOWSE of Iesus Christ holding in her hand the BOOKE OF GOD doth contemplate and behold therin as in a glasse her OWNE SELF she beholds there her owne greatnes her owne proportion her owne face And such is the rare puritie and perfection of this glasse shee beholds there also her doctrine her inwarde composition her life and sowle The proposition of the Obiect is supernaturallie made vnto her in most cleere and euident circumstances And by the infallible operation of the All-teaching Spirit she is directed in her act By these two powerfull certaine meanes she is so constaÌ„tly setled in her faith that if the world shrink vnder feete shee will not leaue the truth Repeate now the first Chapter and reade there in PROPHECIE that which worlds of people since haue beheld with their EIES and still do reade I saie and consider it diligentlie to the end you may see how one is verified in the other that Prophecie in this Church and this Church in that Prophecie And hereby you will vnderstand at leingth by gods grace both that Prophecie and this Church to be from one and the same cause and prime author whose prouidence and power are so vniuersallie eminent that none can frustrate his designe or hinder an euent which he foretold and therfore both diuine and both from God 51. From this Church and from no other I take my direction for eternitie My owne witte might runne amisse I might mistake in the estimation of the Spirit in mee if I went alone And I were mistaken manifestlie if I followed any that swarued from the Spirit of this communitie And an other communitie like this the world neuer sawe The consent of so many worlds of people in an obscure Creede is an euident argument of a supernaturall cause vniting their vnderstandings It was ouer the world before Constantine and yet all Princes were against it in this consent and consequently of a diuine Spirit mouing them For all these Nations were neuer much lesse all this tyme of sixteene hundred yeers actualy subiect to any one Prince or State and the light of nature doth vnite many in one principle or Conclusion but by way of euidence which is not here in our Creede Further wee knowe that Schollers neuer yet agreed so generallie in things subiect vnto the naturall power of their vnderstanding neither can any man aliue finde out or assigne and defend against a Scholler any naturall cause of this vnitie in beleefe The infinite miracles illustrious and vndeniable in this Church are an euident argument that the Author of nature is in it changing the common course of things to the astonishment of the world thereby to drawe the eies of all vppon this Companie where they may see and learne the seruice of their Creator The vniformity of this Companie of Gentiles to the descriptioÌ„ made before in Prophecie and the Reprobation of the Iewish Nation left now without Temple without Sacrifice without Prophet without miracle without any argument of Gods presence and true seruice amonge them are an euident argument that this Companie and the Messias Church described in the Scripture are all one VVherefore worthily did our predecessors and wee doe worthily rest in the communion of this companie And since mortall man with his industrie caÌ„ goe no higher nor better resolue himself in diuine and heauenly â—â—â—ires being heere arriued he meetes with Gods prouidence to conduct him to securitie Is a man moued to beleeue by example aÌ„d consent here are worlds in our communion and this so ample as the like is no were to be fouÌ„d Is he moued with Miracles here are infinite The blinde see the lame walke the deade arise and of this wee haue as greate euidence as man can desire Is he moued with the common and vniforme resolution of the learned heere are generall Decrees made in Councells Oecumenicall by the wisest of all the world the prime Schollers and grauest men comming
a part and distinct that such as reade our papers may knowe when one matter is ended or agreed vppon and doe not thrust other things in heere If you graunt it Saie so If you doe not speake directlie to this point in this place and of no other I will not heare of erring or not erring in fundamentalls or not fundamentalls I haue nothing to doe with that It shall haue a place a part I looke onelie which is the Church answearing to the description whether it be subiect to errour in any thing or be not whether it doth erre actuallie or euer hath actuallie bene in errour I meddle not here with that The thing described in Prophecie the substance of the thing the Church I looke for and haue found her by her proportion by her face it is not yours it is ours THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Wherin answeare is giuen to some exceptions made against the Vniuersalitie of the Church THe Arguments which you and your abotters make against the foresaid vniuersality of the Church S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 12. are answeared easily And whereas first as Donatists heretofore did allso you plead for your pouertie ād paucitie of adherentes that there are fewe chozen and the world full of fooles I confesse there are to many fooles indeede and haue bene euer if you consider the whole collection of all kinde of Heretickes together with Paganes and Atheistes the number whereof being infinite the world may be said to be full But what is this to the purpose since the Catholique Church notwithstanding spreds it selfe into all Natiōs ād makes some of euery nation and those verie many also wise many being called by the Pastors by the Apostles by God to Christianitie frō all natiōs amōg which many though they receaue the word and for a tyme doe well doe flinch in tyme of temptation and fall of before the end and so they be fooles too and with the foolish virgines be shut out of heauē But yet notwithstanding all this there are in the Catholique Church some wise of all nations tongues and people more then can be numbred which infalliblie will gaine the crowne of glorie 56. An other exception you make against our Church because it doth not cōmunicate with all Christians as with your cōgregation for exāple Whereunto I answeare that to the Churches vniuersalitie communion with Heretickes ād Schismatiques is not necessarie but cōmunion with or in all Natiōs and this communion the Romā Church with the rest adherent hath With Heretiques wee will not communicate and doe herein follow the instruction of our Sauiour and Sainct Paule And accordīglie the Church in former tymes would not communicate with Arians Eunomians Nestorians or with Armenians Greciās Aethiopiās or others at such tyme as they were in errour Neither was this communion necessarie to the vniuersalitie of the Church as I said before because it is not necessarie that it communicate with all persones in the world but with all Nations Nor it is necessarie that the Churches communion be at once in all nations and so continue but that in the compasse of her tyme it be in all And thus is our Religion Catholique which hath bene in all Nations one tyme or other that hetherto haue bene Christian which can be truelie said of noe other and by her great power of conuerting Nations is going on to possesse the rest of the Nations that are on earth 56. Thirdly you except against the generalitie of some Councelles wherūto the Greeke Church then deuided would not come But this is noe hindrance to the cause for to the generalitie of a Councell noe more can be required possiblie for persones them the presence and consent of the Bysshopes in communion with the Catholique Church since Catholique Pastors not heretiques are to be heard followed and obaied in matters of faith and religion These doe succeed in the promise made to the Apostles and their successors to the worldes end and in them is the whole teaching authoritie of the Church-present vnto the tyme wherin they are whether they be more or not so many as were some age before In particular to that of the Grecians I answeare that their cōsent was not necessarie to the generalitie of the Coūcelles held in the tyme they liued in Schisme and Heresie and therefore without them the Councell was Oecumenicall for that Councell is Oecumenicall which doth include the authoritie of the presēt Catholique Church It is not requisite that all Bisshops which euer were should be raised againe to life to sitt in Councell nor that such as in after ages are to come should be borne afore their tyme to make a Councell generall neither is it necessarie to call in Heretiques of all sortes It is sufficiēt to call the Bysshopes of the Catholique communion then liuinge when the Councell is to be held The Grecians in the tyme of their Schisme were not of your religion as you haue heard from their owne mouthes when you offered vnion and in your owne iudgment they held heresie as that is of the procession of the holie Ghost from the Father onelie They returned also to the communion of the Catholique Church as you may see in the Councell of Lions and Florence where East and west agreed in doctrine against your heresie and before their Schisme they had bene in the communion of the Church a thousand yeares wel neere Of Indians and Armenians you know by this what I will saie and it is not necessarie to runne ouer the same againe 57. A fourth exception is that all nations be not at one time in the Church because some are Pagā some Hereticke And hence would you make a mā haue a scruple in reciting that part of his Creed wherin he doth professe to beleeue the Catholique Church then existent when he saies his Creede Notwithstanding this obiectiō the Creed was said in the Apostles tyme by such as were in their visible cōmunion and must and will be said as long as the world endures and he that saieth it if he beleeues Gods word and promise may securely ād must beleeue that still there is a Catholique Church which Church hath communion with all Natiōs though this communion in all the latitude be not existent at that tyme but some was before some is to follow after as the Church it selfe taken whollie is not existent all at one tyme but successiuelie to the worldes end it being the collectiō of all Catholiques which euer were are ād will be Orbis miratus est se fact◠esse Arianum Dial. con Lucif 58. A fift is made out of an exaggeration of Sainct Ieromes To the ground and occasion of the speach which was the act of the Bishops in the Councell I might āswer as S. Au. doth to the like ob made out of some words of S. Hilarius Quis nescit ilio tempore obscuris verbis multos parui sensus fuisse delusos vt putarent hoc credi ab Arianis
quod etiam ipsi credebant alios autem timore cessissè simulatè consensisse Aug. Ep. 48. See Baronius as the yeare 359. about the Councell of Ariminium which approued the Nicene faith and cōdemned Vrsatius Valens c. Afterwardes happened that which S. Ierom speaketh of when the Councell was neither f◠nor approued and all Catholikes in the world admit that such a Councell might 〈◊〉 of Ariminium neuer approued by the See Apostolike nor euer acknowledged for lawfull by the Church and by your selues also reiected I answeare that there was noe cause of feare that the Church should by that acte be all deceaued and erre in faith for the Church hath alwayes the assistance of the holie Ghost to preserue her from errour in faith by couenant of God the Father and promise of God the sonne as in the next booke you shall heare at large Neither wanted there at any tyme learned men who knew that a Councell wanting the consent of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical properlie nor an infallible rule of faith 58. If you plead against the visibilitie of our Church with this obiectiō it is weake for the Arians euer found opponēts and those visible such as at last wonne the field If you plead with it against the vniuersalitie of the Church it is also weake and impertinent it is impertinent as it comes from you because those Arians were not Protestantes and therfore their number makes nothing for the vniuersalitie of your cause And it is also weake because their communion was neuer with all Nations nor did euer equall the vniuersalitie of the Church Which is euident because the Catholique communion was elder by three hunderd yeares and was in that tyme spred ouer all Christendome and hath continued after Arianisme is gone these many hundred yeeres in the communion of the Christian world and more Natiōs haue bene since conuerted to it and are dailie and so will be till she hath bene in the communion of them all If therfore you will measure both take each communion in her greatest latitude of tyme and place or Nations and you will presentlie see Arianisme to be too narrowe and too short as not hauing possessed so many Nations nor dured so longe a tyme. Much lesse will you find that begining the same tyme it ranne side by side in an equall or a fuller streame through all ages to this daie and were so to continue if you intended this I should suspect your braine 59. Touching the comparison of it to that part of the Church at least which was at that tyme you thinke it so filled all places of the Christian world that Catholiques had noe roome This errour is of ignorance you may amend it if you inquire of some who did liue then If I should bring many testimonies you would saie I were tedious in matter of historie and therfore will content my selfe and you also if you be reasonable with one from many Authors S. Athanasius a man beyond exception together with diuers Bysshopes of Aegypt Thebais and Libia wrote to Iouiā the Emperour of the Nicene faith thus Know certainely ap Theodoret l. 4. c. 3. most holie Emperour that this same faith hath bene published from all memorie of ages this the holie fathers assembled at Nice haue confirmed to this haue assented all Churches euerie where as of Spaine of Britanie of France of all Italie of Dalmatia of Mysia of Macedonia and all Greece and all the Churches of Africke Sardinia Cyprus Creete Pāphilia Lycia Isauria and the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Pontus Cappadocia and the Churches of the bordering countryes and finallie the Churches of the east some fewe excepted which doe fauour the Arian sect for wee doe certainelie know the sentence of them all and haue receaued letters from them and doe know certainlie most holie Emperour that although a fewe doe contradict this faith the whole world cannot suffer preiudice therby 60. Sixtly you oppose vnto vs want of vnitie I answeare that all Catholiques doe submit their vnderstandings to the iugment of the Church and to the generall decrees of their Pastores and masters readie to beleeue whatsoeuer they generallie in Councells doe define and to reiect whatsoeuer they condemne and by these meanes are vnited perfectlie vnto those Councelles and to the whole Church in faith and iudgment about religion each man in the Church hauing his vnderstanding vndeuided in beleefe from the Church and so being one with it Vnitie consisting in Indiuision as you haue learned of the philosopher lōge agoe Our Councelles likewise are one in doctrine as the partes of Scriptures are though they be not Scripture but declarations of Gods word that is they are vndiuided there being amōgst thē all noe opposition or dissent in decrees and definitiōs ād the later receauing what hath bene formerlie defined wherof hereafter I will discourse a part because as Iulian Porphyrie and others thought they sawe cōtradictions in the Scripture so you haue imagined the like of Coūcelles though nothing so many nor haueing that shew as those had which by the foresaid infidelles were obiected and if you know not so much you are not of that reading your frindes haue taken you to be To your argumente I saie therfore that this companie hath vnitie in beleefe noe man at all in the companie being diuided from the rest in beleefe howsoeuer about thinges vndefinied and vndetermined by the Church in their tyme there might be diuersitie of opinions ād may be now in the like as he knowes that hath bene a weeke in the Schooles of deuinitie The same companie hath originallie likewise vnitie in religion and faith each vnderstanding in the whole mysticall bodie being submitted to the same iudge of cōtrouersies that is to Gods Spiritte in the Church Catholique and acknowledging this one Spiritte and this one Church and this one Spiritte in this one Church iudging defininge determining ruling all VVhich common vnion and consent in one makes their communion so generall so firme and so conspicuous as you are faine to see with your eies against your will 61. A seuenth argument is made against succession and it is obiected that wee haue noe succession of Catholiques or of such as wee are I answeare that the Catholique religion and Church is that whose communion is with all Nations as you haue heard and a Catholicke is a man who doth resolue his faith into this Church and into the Spiritte which doth assist and teach it such were all who did receaue the Generall Councelles before spoken of and the doctrine of the Church present to the tymes wherein they liued which were infinite and such will be to the worldes end If you will haue some assigned more particularly that you may dispute against them I name whole assemblies of pastors in Generall Councell I name the Generall Councells mentioned heretofore In them was our Succession and the Catholique Church in them was conspicuous and worlds of people did communicate with
them This is a succession because they were not all at one tyme and a Catholique succession because the communion of Nations was with them and with their faith and their Decrees 61. Other obiections you haue against the truth of the doctrine which this Church doth maintaine But the chiefest of them are allready answeared in another place And hereafter I will proue at large that the Catholique Church onelie hath the assistance of the all teaching Spiritte and therfore cannot be condemned of errour by any meanes extant in the world whatsoeuer noe iudgment being of greater or of equall authoritie with hers by reason of the Spiritte which doth teach her all truth The second Conclusion The Christians in Communion with Vrbanus VIII are the Church of God THE THIRD BOOKE OF DIVINE ASSISTANCE THE FIRST CHAPTER Proouing diuine Assistance in the Catholike Church 1. HAVING declared sufficientlie which is the Church it followes next that wee speake of the diuine assistance in beleeuing and teaching which assistance the sonne of God hath promised vnto it Catholiques as I haue said before doe resolue their iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and the iudgment of the Church doth relie vppon the assistance of the holie Ghost by whose prouidence it is preserued from erring in the pâ—oposition of diuine faith This assistance in Church-proposition wee beleeue and that you must also grant and beleeue it I am now to prooue You will not denie that men are to be instructed trulie in faith an diuine matters for how shall they liue as Christians ought vnles they beleeue rightlie and how shall they beleeue rightlie if they be not well taught and instructed how shall they inuocate saith the Apostle in whome they haue not beleeued Rom. 10.14 and how shall they beleeue in whoÌ„ they haue not heard or how shall they heare without a preacher it cannot be For no man of himselfe is able to finde out or to discouer the mysteries of our faith the Trinitie the Incarnation of the Sonne of God the Scriptures and their meaning It is therefore necessarie that men be instructed in matters of faith 2. And since instruction is necessarie as wee also by experience know this instruction must be looked for in some Schoole and from some masters or instructors The question therefore comes presentlie about this teaching Schoole which and where it is that a man there may be instructed To this question the answeare is easie first it is not the companie of Athiests or Pagans for their doctrine and instruction is not holie and diuine Secondlie it is not the companie of Iewes for their doctrine is not Christian Thirdlie it is not the companie of confessed Heretiques therefore it is the Church for the Church is the Schoole of Iesus Christ and which this is I haue declared in the former booke This supposed I reason thus for diuine assistance 3. It belongs to the prouidence of allmightie God to assist that Schoole in which by his will and ordinance the whole world is to be instructed in diuine matters and Religion Therefore it belongs to Gods prouidence to Arg. 1 assist the Church for the Church is the said Schoole as I declared before The argument is cleere and needs no further confirmation but least you seeke to escape it if it be vrged by one that is no Scholler with some fonde distinction I note here that the Spirit doth assist to beleeue and to teach The first of these acts is in the vnderstanding and interior the second is publique or exterior and in the mouth The Spirit doth assist the Church both wayes that is to beleeue and to teach but the argument doth proceede here of assistance to the later to teach because faith according to S. Paul doth suppose instruction or teaching aÌ„d euery one should haue faith for without faith it is impossible to please God and he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Hebr. 11. Mar. 16. Moreouer you knowe that for resolution in diuine matters it is necessarie that a man knowe where to seeke instruction whom he may securelie followe in whose iudgment he may rest in whome and where the Spirit of God doth speake This is the thinge wee looke for and this thing is in noe other companie but the Schoole of Iesus Christe the Church 4. It may be you will say that a man desirous of instruction should come to you But this will not satisfie for what should a man haue done before Luther when Protestants were not nor your Religion thought vppon as I haue seene allreadie in the first booke He might haue gone ouer all the world to looke for your Church and lost his labour But deale plainlie with vs and declare your minde is there any congregation in the world whose instruction one may securelie fellowe or no if there be not what course should vnlearned men take to learne the truth shall they beleeue without preachers If there be which is it and whence hath it that it may be followed of it selfe or from the Spirit you can answeare nothinge but the Spirit and this Spirit not in Athiests nor in Iewes nor in confessed Heretiques but in the Church And thus much for those who seeke instruction 5. I prooue secondlie this assistance by the necessitie of a Iudge to determine controuersies Arg. 2 in matter of Religion Since the Scripture is obscure in many places and since Heresies do and must arise in the world it is necessarie that there be some Visible meanes able and sufficient to determine controuersies which meanes can be no other but the proposition and iudgmeÌ„t of the Church For being visible and intelligent able to heare examine and define the controuersies it must needs consist of men not of meere Spirits or of insensible creatures and if it consist of men these men must not be Athiests or enemies to the Christian doctrine such as are Pagans Iewes and confessed Heretiques and therefore they must be the Church or that part of it which is to teach The iudge of controuersies therefore is the Church Whence it followes that the holie Spirit doth assist her in this act of determining controuersies in matter of faith directing her vnderstaÌ„ding to coÌ„ceaue the meaning of Gods word and preseruing her from errour in the proposition of it This discourse you cannot denie with any shewe of probabilitie for there is no meanes to make an end of controuersies among men if the iudgment of the Church be neglected or be not certaine aÌ„d infallible if the Spirit of truth be not in the Church it is in none at all if it doth not teach the Church it doth teach none if it doth not direct the Church to vnderstand Gods word it directeth none if it doth not assist the Church when she for the generall good of the Christian world doth determine a controuersie of faith it doth assist none at all for all the promise made by our Sauiour Iesus Christ of assistaÌ„ce is made vnto
the Church and the onelie meanes which men haue vnder heauē to be informed of the truth is by recourse vnto it vnto the Church and to the Spiritte in her 6. I will descend vnto particulars and make it more manifest A man beleeuing or knowing that there is a God would gladlie heare what he hath imparted to men of the truth and therfore inquires for Gods word he would esteeme himselfe happie if he could be certainlie directed to it and not cozened with other things in steed of it with forged Gospells and Epistles To this mā the Church doth giue satisfaction by reaching him the Bible and assuring him that she knowes it to be Gods word by the assistance and testimonie of the diuine Spiritte which protectes her from errour in beleefe and this promise she had from Iesus Christ who by miracles by prophecies and other sufficient meanes prooued himselfe to be the Sonne of God You on the otherside who denie this certaintie and assistance can giue him no satisfactiō in the world Next opening this booke he finds it hard as containing many obscure passages about the Trinitie the Incarnation the death of Christ his resurrection the sacrament of his bodie and blood c. to this the Church answears him directlie and tells him the sense of God assuring him as before that she by the assistance of the diuine Spiritte left vnto her doth know is to be so You leaue him without satisfaction to the dishonour of Iesus Christ whose wisedome you call in question withall whilst you denie that he prouided meanes for men to be informed of his doctrine and of the waie to serue God 7. You are more sensible peraduenture in examples neerer home though these which I haue put cōcearne euerie man very neerelie I therefore put you in particular in the busines and on the other side put my selfe The question betwixt you and me is whether the visible Church be iudge of controuersies and infallible or be not what meanes to end it your witte why rather then mine or why either since the matter is diuine The Spiritte why in you rather then in me especiallie since I am in the communion of the Church and you not as I haue allreadie prooued or rather whie the Spiritte in either rather then the Spiritte in the Church I am a part that is the whole I am to learne and by Gods grace haue the Spirite to be taught and directed in the Church are my Pastors and I must heare them by the commaund of my Sauiour why then shall I not beleeue that when the voice of them all is one it is the voice of my Sauiour Iesus Christ Other things allso you question as whether it be in the hart onelie to beleeue or in the mouth allso to teach and to professe whether the promise be executed inuisiblie onelie and in the hart of the predestinate and no where els or visiblie also by publique proposition and profession of the truth These and infinite other controuersies wee haue with you ād with your fellowes now adayes and what meanes are there to finde the truth if you say your witte or the Spiritte I replie as before and am certaine that in fine no thing can be brought but the Spiritte nor this pretended howsoeuer but existent by Gods promise in the Church * Seeing the controuersies in our time are growen in number so many and in nature so intricate that fewe haue time and leasure fewer strength of vnderstanding to examine thē what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to search out which amōgst all the Societies of men in the world is that blessed company of holy ones that househould of faith that spouse of Christ and Church of the liuing God which is the pillar and ground of truth that so they may embrace her communion follow her directions and rest in her iudgment Thus Field in his Epist to the Byssh of Cant. before his Church But if you keepe your eie long vppon this man you shall see him daunce the round too with his fellowes 8. Thirdlie this assistance doth efficaciously follow out of Gods eternall ordinance and decree about the Church which ordinance and decree he hath reuealed in holie writte All powerfull and wise persones intending Arg. 3 resolutelie an End do ordaine likewise efficaciouse meanes to compasse and effect it Since therfore allmightie God hath intended resolutelie to raise a Church out of all Nations as I haue declared in the former booke ◠Book 1. Chapt. ād since the meanes to doe this is infallible propositiō of the truth it followeth that he hath ordained infallible propositiō there of which proposition being not by externes but by the Church it remaines that the Church-propositiō is infallible Your āsweare is that the propositiō made to the elect is infallible but not the proposition made to the rest I replie that the proposition which I speake of that is the exteriour proposition is one and the same in it selfe and made to all but the elect make good vse of it others do not To put this in example for vnderstanding of it you knowe that our Sauiour did preach openlie and his doctrine was instruction for the elect and was infallible but reprobates did heare it allso Good and bad heard the Apostles preach and their doctrine was the same all men cast their eies on the Scripture and the decrees of Generall Councells are proposed vnto all These all are meanes ordained by allmightie God for the instruction of his elect and therfore by his perpetuall watch are kept infallible though reprobates heare and see the same but make not of them such vse as they ought 9. But to speake of the elect particularly since you desire it I demaund of you whether God doth prouide exteriour proposition of diuine faith and pure and solide truth for them or no if you graunt he doth I haue that which I intend for noe man is so mad as to thinke he doth imploie infideles and not his Church in this busines ād if he doth imploy the Church in it he keepes her from erring in the proposition that so the true doctrine may be conuaied into the harts of his electe if you denie that he doth prouide and dispose things so that the true doctrine be exteriorlie proposed vnto his elect how then doe they beleeue you must studie hard to resolue the question Rom. 10.14 for the Apostle thought it could not be And why do you trouble your selues to preach and write bookes perhappes you haue some other end but why did almightie God sēd prophettes into the world ād afterwards his owne sōne why did our Sauiour sende Apostles to teach Nations if this were not necessarie for the instruction of Gods elect why did God ordaine pastors and teachers and promise that his words should neuer out of their mouthes Ephes 4. Isay 59. why were the Gospells and the Epistles written and
are by his prouidence kept free from errour You would faine answeare that to the ēd the Church-propositiō doe settle Christiās in faith and infalliblie guide them it neede not be kept infallible and free from errour But how then am I infalliblie right as Christians doe beleeue they are if the rule which I doe followe be not so if I be allwaies as that and that be some tymes wrong how am I euer right suppose that doe erre and that I followe it as Christians here by Saint Paule are warranted to foilowe the Church doe not I runne into the same errour if you insist in this errour carpentars and masons will hisse at your doctrine 18. This is yet further confirmed because as S. Paule here makes the Church to be the rule to direct our faith so doth our Sauiour himselfe in the Gospell warrant men to beleeue as the Church teacheth saying to his Apostle and to their Successors the Pastors of the Church he that heareth you heareth me ād he that despiseth you dispiseth me and againe Luk 10. ◠Matth. 1◠17. if he will not heare the Church let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican How could this be true if a man might contemne all the Church as you doe and if all the Church might erre if to heare the Church be to heare Christ sure Christ speaketh when the Church doth the words be his words in her mouth ād if they be his words they are not lies they be true 19. Touching the place of Sainct Paule bid your brother puritan obserue here with you that as you haue now learned if you be not incapable of learning the Church whereof Saint Paule speakes is visible and that assistance in teaching is giuen according to the diuinitie of Sainct Paule to the visible Church of God And the contrarie is a meere shift and contrarie to Scripture to experience and to the necessitie of Gods people They haue not each one immediate reuelations but are instructed by visible men such our Sauiour did send to teach Nations and such will be to the worlds end to this purpose as the Apostle hath here tould vs. Such are those whome the Holie Ghost endowes with his guiftes to the edifying of the Saints or holie ones of which guiftes the Apostle speakes in an other place Rom. 12. v. ◠5.6.7.8 As in one bodie wee haue many members but all the members haue not one action so wee being many are one bodie in Christ and each one anothers members And hauing guiftes according to the grace that is giuen vs different either prophecie according to the rule of faith or ministerie in ministring or he that teacheth in doctrine he that exhorteth in exhorting c. Here is the Spiritte of God in a visible bodie a bodie I saie manifestlie visible in manifold operations and functions here described In this bodie this visible bodie the Spiritte is and in the same are Gods elect it beīg the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ ād this mysticall body beīg one ◠5 as you haue read in the Apostles words The like discourse he hath in his Epistle to the Corīthiās where the vnitie of this bodie wherī S. Paule allso and the rest of the Apostles were and the visibilitie of the same one bodie containing in it the predestinate vnles you will exclude Saint Paule and the Apostles from the nūber of them are commended there are diuisions of graces but one Spiritte 1. Corinth 12. v. 4.5.6 c And there are diuisions of ministrations but one lord And there are diuisions of operations but one God which worketh all in all And the manifestation of the Spiritte is giuen vnto euerie one to profit To one certes by the Spiritte is giuen the word of wisdome and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spiritte to another the working of miracles to another prophecie to another discerning of Spiritts to another kinds of tongues to another interpretation of languages And all these things worketh one and the same Spiritte diuiding to euery one according as he will this is the bodie which hath the Spiritte and these are the functions v. 12.13.14 and these are visible to them which haue eies for as the bodie is one and hath many members and all the members of the bodie wheras they be many yet are one bodie so allso Christ For in one Spiritte were wee all baptized into one whether Iewes or Gentiles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. 20. or bondmen or free and in one Spiritte wee were all made to drinke for the bodie allso is not one member but many c. now there are many members indeed but one Bodie Thus farre Sainct Paule wherin he hath confuted the Puritans errour of two Churches and accuratelie declared the visibilitie of Gods Church and assistance of Gods Spirit And I would haue you marke particularlie how S. Paul and consequentlie the rest of the predestinate are baptized into the same one visible Bodie and are partes of it which the Greeke text doth yet expresse more distinctlie 20. A ninth waie the diuine assistance is prooued out of the Epistles of the same greate diuine ād Apostle vnto Timothie and thus you may conceaue it The Church or congregation Arg. 9 of Christian men cannot be the pillar and ground of truth without diuine assistāce for men left to themselues may be mistaken in diuine matters but the Church is the pillar and ground of truth therfore it hath diuine assistance The proposition is cleere and confessed ◠Tim. 3. v. 14.15 The assumption I finde in Sainct Paul These things I write vnto thee Timothie hoping that I shall come to thee quicklie But if I tary lōge that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth 21. You trie many wayes to answeare this argument but none will serue the first is that the Church cannot erre in teaching as long as it followeth the word of God ād teacheth accordīg to it This is a peece of deepe diuinitie Cā an heretique cā a Turke cā an Athiest cā a diuell erre as lōg as he followes the word of God and teacheth according to it are these pillars of truth The secōd is that those words are meant of the Church of Ephesus take your spectacles and reade againe The Church of the liuing God what Church is that but the Catholique wherin Timothie and all good Christians are This Church is the ground of truth The third is that it is meant of the inuisible Church This is likewise agaīst the text for the Apostle in all that Chapter doth discourse of conuersation of Christian people verie visible ād tells Timothie that the things which he saies there are directions for him to knowe how he is to carie himselfe in the Church of God reade the text for it is cleere 22. The last argument I make
one of Gods Secretaries a man beyond all exception declares in these words Isa 59.21 My spiritte that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth ād out of the mouth of thy seede c. saith our Lord from this present and for euer Thus he And the title of it is This is my couenant with them He doth not say my precept the Church of the Redeemer saith our Lord. 28. The first answeare is that the place concernes not the Church of Christ but onelie the Prophets of the Iewish Church But this is against the text it self which doth speake very manifestly of the Church of the Messias as you may see by the words that immediatelie goe before They of the West shall feare the name of our Lord v. 19.20 and they of the Rising of the Sunne his glorie when he shall come as a violent streame which the Spirit of our Lord driueth and the Redeemer shall come to Sion and to them that returne from iniquitie in Iacob saith our Lord. As if he had said when the Messias come into the world a Redeemer to Sion and to those that returne from iniquitie an Israel for when all Nations haue entered into the Church the Iewes will acknowledge our Sauiour too as I haue declared in the former booke Rom. 11. ◠and the Apostle doth also confirme out of this place both East and west that is the world will beleeue And this is my couenant with them the Beleeuers the Church My Spirit that is thee and my words c. The text aboue cited is by S. Ierome translated out of the Hebrew which in his time had noe points into latine thus Time bunt qui ab occidente nomen Domini qui ab Ortu solis gloriam eius quum venerit quasi fluuius violentus quem Spiritus Domini cogit VENERIT Sion Redemptor eis qui redeunt ab iniquitate in Iacob dicit Dominus Hoc foedus meum cum eis dicit Dominus Spiritus meus qui est in te verba mea quae posui in ore tuo non recedent de ore c. 29. The second answeare is that the promise is conditionall and the sense this that God will keepe the true doctrine of Saluatiō in their mouthes if they followe the Scripture and forsake not the truth in their hartes This answeare doth change the sense of allmightie God for it addeth the condition of following the Scripture wheras the promise and couenant of allmightie God is absolute and without condition as were the rest of the promises of sending a Messias and calling the Gentiles and the promise our Sauiour made of sending the holie Ghost after his ascension It taketh also the true sense awaie for the couenant is of effecting the Churches perseuerance in teaching and professing the sacred truth and adhering to his word and this you take awaie And the rest which you leaue is not the sense of God nor of the words as they are in the bible nor any priuiledge at all but a thinge which to Athiests and diuells you doe graunt for you confesse they doe teach true as longe as they teach the word of God 30. I demaund of you here whether you thinke in your conscience that God can continue the visible profession of the faith or no You cannot denie that he can doe it if he will for his wisdome and power are infinite and nothing can be but so as he pleaseth to effect or to permitte and if you denie this you denie that which in your Creede you doe professe Now graunting that he can doe it why doe not you beleeue that he will and doth seeing that he hath obliged himselfe therevnto by promise and couenant as the Scripture doth testifie It is a verie hard case when a mā dares not stand to the plaine words of Scripture and to their immediate sense which they doe offer especiallie a sense which is honourable to God and beneficiall to the Church but will add conditions of his owne as if God could make no couenant vnles he were his lawier to giue him counsell But omitting your trickes as foolish and vngrounded and contrarie to Gods honour and veracitie and wisdome I will putte you in mind of one thing which our Sauiour said touching the prophecies of himselfe and his mysticall bodie the Church Luke 24. v 44.45.46.47 All things saith he must needs be fulfilled which are written in the lawe of Moyses and the prophets and psalmes of me Thē he opened their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the Scriptures and he said to them That so it is written and so it behoued Christ to suffer and to rise againe from the deade the third day and penance to be preached and remission of sinnes vnto all natiōs begining from Hierusalem Heare you haue heard this preaching of the Gospell to all Nations particularlie by Christ inserted among those things which he said must needs be fulfilled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the couenant which I haue cited is in the prophet and toucheth this preaching particularlie whie doe you then oppose your selfe to Iesus Christ and saie it neede not be fulfilled it must not needs be 31. The third answeare is that God according to the couenāt doth keepe the true doctrine and sauing faith in the harts of the predestinate though they doe not alwaies professe it This will not serue your turne wee speake of profession of preaching the word of God of professing the true faith this God hath promised to continue and this makes men seene and heard of others this makes a noise in the world that all Natiōs may heare and come vnto the Church where continuallie one generation followes an other with the Gospell the doctrine of Iesus Christ the words of God in their mouth Isay 59.21 Harke Puritan the Scripture thunders this in my couenant with them saith our Lord my Spiritte that is in thee ād my VVORDS that I haue putte in thy MOVTH shall not depart out of thy MOVTH and out of the MOVTH of thy seede ād out of the MOVTH of the seede of thy seede saith our Lord from this present and FOREVER Reflect vpō these words This is my couenant with them the Christian Church saith our Lord My Spiritte which is in thee in thy hart and my words he saith not this or that poīt but generallie my words which I God haue put into thy mouth shall not out whēce of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede c. till when For euer I was about to make an end heere of this part but I cānot for beare adding one sentēce more out of the same prophet in an other Chapter next but one where he declares the perpetuall visibilitie of the Church by reason of the continuall noise which her Pastors make and shewes in part the vse of the foresaid assistāce Vppon thie walles Hierusalem
I haue appointed watchmen Isay 62.6 all the daie and all the night foreuer they shall not hould their peace It is not said they shall not hould their peace if they doe not sleepe according to your drowsie glosse or if they will not speake the word of God but absolutelie it is said they shall not hould their peace And thus much of the first Iohn 14. v. 16.17 32. The second place doth containe our Sauiours will as I said the words are these I will aske the Father and he will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of truth whome the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not neither knoweth him but you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you v. 26. The Paraclete the holie Ghost whom the father will send in my name he shall teach you all things aÌ„d suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you â—6 chap. v. 12.13 Yet many things I haue to saie vnto you but you cannot beare them now but when he the Spiritt of truth commeth he shall teach you all truth For he shall not speake of himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but what things soeuer he shall heare he shall speake In these words obserue with me seaueÌ„ things the first is who seÌ„deth Iesus Christ the soÌ„ne of God secondlie whom he sendeth another comforter the holie Ghost the Spiritte of truth thirdlie to whome he sends this comforter and Spirit to the Church he was to leaue behinde him here one earth consisting of Apostles aÌ„d Pastors persons visible by their function and office Fourthlie how this Spirit is to be with them to abide in this Church and to remanie with it Fiftlie to what end all this to teach them the truth Sixtlie Some pro are so Wise as to exclude teaching and say the spirit was left only to coÌ„fort not to teach what truth and how much whatsoeuer I shall saie to you what things soeuer he shall heare All truth Seauenthlie for how long For euer All this is in the text and therfore our position is most true that the Church hath diuine assistance in the proposition of the faith 33 I must tell you moreouer first that God with a fewe words can signifie many things his comprehension being infinite and he knowing all the significations and vses of all words And next that I take these words of Iesus Christ in the whole fullnes of their sense and meaning though some Interpreters haue contented themselues to put a part of it onelie downe hauing not then occasion as wee haue now to searth further In the Church are people and Pastors the Spiritte assists all some to teach aÌ„d to gouerne others to obaie and to be directed Some are predestinate aÌ„d with these the spiritte continues to perseuerance some are not but for a tyme beleeue and this by the assistance of the spiritte And some of them are teachers allso and gouernours aÌ„d in this kinde do participate allso the assistance of Gods Spirit who disposeth all as he pleaseth diuiding his guifts aÌ„d graces among men to his glorie and the good of the predestinate In fine all those whose names are written in the booke of life perseuere finallie So that the Spirit leades them further to the state of glorie and there shewes them all truth in it selfe abiding so with them for all eternitie 34. But now let vs heare what you saie to this place First you saie it is promised to the Apostles in their owne persons onelie This is false first because it is promised to remaine with them for euer whereas the Apostles in their owne persons were not to liue euer heere and perpetuall coexistence of two extreames includes a perpetuall existeÌ„ce of each of them as I noted before vpon the like occasion it is to them therfore and to their successors after them without ending at any tyme and so foreuer Secondlie by the end of the graunt the same is euident for the Church now a daies stands in neede of this Assistance as well as it did then and in some respects more because it is greater and the like it is of other ages and will be still to the worlds end since therefore the prouidence of our Sauiour for the establishment of his Church and saluation of his elect is perfect the graunt holds according to the letter and is so to be vnderstood as the word stands foreuer 35. Next you saye the sence is the Spiritte teacheth the Church all the truth that is taught her If I should tell you that my master in England did teach me all languages aÌ„d coÌ„fesse afterwards they were but two that he taught me you would thinke sure that I did lie for two be not all Yet would you haue the Scripture to speake in this manner But I answeare that the words of Scripture are plaine he shall teach all whatsoeuer I shall say to you whatsoeuer he shall heare all truth ch 14. v. 26 Ch. 16. v. 13 And I thinke if I should giue you all my bookes you would not be contented if my executors should giue you the tenth part with this interpretation of the will I giue you all that is all which are giuen you and then define what that is among themselues as you doe in the matter of fundamentall points but of this hereafter 36. The third waie of eluding the place is to saie that in heauen the Spirit teacheth all truth but not here That in heaueÌ„ he teacheth all I knowe well but you erre against the scripture in denying that he teacheth all truth heere Reade the text and you shall see that our Sauiour sendeth the Spirit vnto the militant Church from which he meant to withdrawe his visible presence to the Apostles left in the world and to their Successors to comfort them in his absence to reduce vnto their minde what he had said and to assist and teach them all truth The Spiritte of truth saith excellentlie S. Cyrill will lead vnto all truth Cyrill Alex li. 10. in Ioan. cap. 41. for he knoweth exactlie the truth whose spirit he is and hath reuealed it vnto vs not in part onelie but entirely for though in this life wee know in part onelie as S. Paul saith 1. Cor. 13. not an imperfect but the entire truth hath shined vnto vs in this litle knowledge * The Obiects of the Churches faith as the Trinitie the Incarnation c. may be knowne either obscurely by faith or cleerely by vision The former of these is an vnperfect knowledge of them the latter is perfect As he that beleeues all the Conclusions in Euclide for the Authoritie of Schollers who generally agree in them knowes them vnperfectly but he that can demonstrate them knowes them perfectly To both the foresaid knowledges the holy Ghost doth leade the Church to the former heere on earth to the later in heauen Of the
manners all most infinite And further yet there is and hath ben controuersie about the rule it self as which it is how much is Scripture which booke which chapter which verse is or is not holy Scripture what is the meaning of this or that verse which controuersies must be decided otherwise there will neuer be vnitie and consent about the diuine Word rule and lawe Now these things cannot be determined without Diuine Assistance as I argued before and for the Vnitie in Religion and the CommunioÌ„ and Perpetuitie power to determine them is necessarie wherefore since our Sauiours Prouidence was not deficient it followes that there is and in the Church such power and Assistance 47. Fourthlie if the holie ministerie in the Church of God be established as a rule of mens faith to the end they be not in their faith wauering and borne about with euery winde of newe doctrine to the circumuention of errour then is it by Gods assistance and perpetuall watch and direction infallible but the sacred ministerie of the Church of God is thus established by Iesus Christ which I proue by the testimonie of S. Paule before alleadged he Christ Ephes 4. v. 11. c. gaue some Apostles aÌ„d other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried about with euerie wind of doctrine in the wickednes of men in craftines to the circumuention of errour 47. Fiftly since you distinguish the doctrine of faith into fundamentall and not fundamentall it followes that the Apostles had put into their mouthes for instruction of Gods people doctrine allso not fundameÌ„tall Iohn 15. v. 15. all thinges whatsoeuer I hard of my father I haue notified vnto you said our Sauiour to the Apostles Whence I inferre also that that doctrine shall neuer out of their mouthes or the mouthes of their successors while the world endures and proue it by Gods couenant of assistance Isay 5â— my spiritte that is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth aÌ„d out of the mouth of thy seede aÌ„d out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer And by the promise of our blessed Sauiour Isay 14. v. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Paraclete the holy Ghost whome the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all thinges and suggest vnto you all thinges whatsoeuer I shall say to you 49. That you may the better vnderstand this peece of diuinitie which doth oft occurre I will spend a litle more tyme in it to let you know first that you and the rest of your fellowes in this matter doe crosse and contradict your owne selues For touching other pointes pointes of religioÌ„ and gods word which you saie are not fundamentall Further Confirmation of the former arguments either there is certaine knowledge to be had of them or there is not make choise of which you please If you be not certaine you must confesse you doubt of the truth of such pointes and of the meaning of Gods word in all places by vs alleadged which are not fundamentall and that you confidentlie auouch in the pulpitte and maintaine against vs in the matters of reall presence iustificatioÌ„ merit workes of Supererogation sacrifice inuocation of Sainctes c. that which you doubt whether it be as you saie or noe If you be certaine either you meane that the Spiritte doth assist and assure you in more then fundamentalles which indeed is your ordinarie pulpite bragge where none dispute with you and consequentlie you must graunt against your distinction that the assistance of the Spiritte is extended further then to your pretended fundamentalles or you meane that you are not assured by the Spiritte but onelie by your witte which witt you oppose to the witte and iudgment of all the Church in diuine matters And if it be thus you contradict you selues because at home you say you resolue it not into your owne witte but into the Spirit 50. You answeare that by illation you conclude against vs but who knowes not that the difficultie is about the sense of the place from whence you offer to conclude against vs and that first you must be certaine of this sense before you can extract any thing out of it by good consequeÌ„ce I demaund therfore whether you be certaine of the sense or noe if you be not you are not certaine of the conclusion which you draw there hence as euery logitian can tell if you be then I demaund how since mans witte in diuine matters may mistake and this you confesse assistance of the Spiritte you haue not or if you pretend to haue it then confesse that in your owne iudgment it is extended in Gods promise to more then fundamentalles 51. Secondlie you contradict the whole Church aÌ„d her spiritte in this foolish affirmatioÌ„ of the Churches errour in pointes not fuÌ„damentall as you call them A second Confirmation And this I proue because all ChristiaÌ„s that euer were in the coÌ„munion of the Church hetherto did submitte their iudgmeÌ„t to the generall iudgmeÌ„t of the Church in the age before them beleeuing all whatsoeuer was theÌ„ generallie aÌ„d without exception beleeued whether the point were one of those which you call fundamentall or were not one of them in somuch that you are not able to name any one point held generallie without exception in any former age to be matter of faith though it were not one of your fundamentalles which point was reiected by the Church generallie in any ensuing age And to giue all the scope in this you can desire take all the tyme from the comming of the assisting Spiritt which was the whitsontide next after our Sauiours ascension to this present yeare But be sure you obserue diligentlie what I haue said in this argument and doe not speake of thinges which are not to this purpose either because they were not generallie and without exception esteemed matters of faith by the Church Catholique or because the contradiction tradition was not the act of the Church but of some priuate man either mistakeÌ„ by ignoraÌ„ce the Church not approuing his assertion or pertinaciously a uouching it â—n Hereticke and so without and none of vs. 3. Confirmation 52. The truth of that which I haue said is further yet manifest in this that all whosoeuer were generallie condemned for Heretiques in any former age by the Church were esteemed so by the Church in following tymes whether their Heresies were in matters you call fundamentall or not as he may see who will runne ouer the Heresies of former tymes whence it followes elderlie that
the Church in later tymes did conforme her iudgment to the iudgment of the church in former tymes and esteeme it infalliblie This is true at all tymes from the Apostles to this daie therfore all the Church of all this tyme is against your affirmation and your affirmation against the Spirit of all this Church pastors and people 〈◊〉 and learned auncient and moderne 53. Fourthlie 4. Confir If all Christians be warranted by Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and true God to heaâ—e the Church and to 〈…〉 iudgment then is it vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though not fundamentall in your sense be false and coÌ„tradict the eternall truth because God being truth and goodnes obligeth not men to erre and to contradiction But all Christians are so warranted Luk. 10. v. 16. He which heareth you heareth me he which contemneth you contemneth me It is therfore vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though such as you call not fundamentall be false therfore it hath by Gods prouidence the assistance of the Spiritt of truth in euerie such generall resolution 54. Fiftlie If the whole Church theÌ„ all Bisshopes all Fathers though consenting all together aÌ„d teaching vniformely may haue erred in matters of faith which are not of your fundamentalles 5. Confir Whence it followes that whatsoeuer they haue said or beleeued or receaued aboue those fewe fundameÌ„talles may be false aÌ„d consequentlie nothing nothing at all in matter of faith is certaine but onelie those fewe fundamentalles Why then may not the rest of deuinitie yea all the rest of the scripture be false and why may not old damned heresies howsoeuer in the primitiue tyme abhorred be true If you offer to answere that you â—â—owe certainlie those things to be false and the rest of the scripture to be true I replie that you doe either pretend to know this by the spiritte and therby you admitte what before in your distinctioÌ„ you denied or you pretend to know it by your witte and then you entangle your selfe more in in the bryers for how will you make it euident that your witte cannot erre in these matters if all other wittes might haue erred 55. Hauing lighted here on the consideration of the fonde esteeme you haue of your owne witte aboue the world I begin to see that you affect a place farre aboue the qualitie of your person though this disorder in affection be in a manner secrette from your selfe You iudge and determine controuersies in matters not fundamentall as you speake and this men see aÌ„d your forwardnes herein hath enforced me to this answeare Now you take this office of determining these controuersies froÌ„ the Church as wee haue seene oft before aÌ„d if you would acknowledge it to be there I neede write no more of this matter This throne was high but you affect a higher yet which I shew for either in this matter of determining these controuersies you giue place to the Spiritt as to the iudge or you doe not if you doe the Spirittes holie assistance is exteÌ„ded further then to your fundamentalles if you doe not you sitte in the throne aÌ„d iudge for you determine them against vs. Let Christians tell me now whether you vsurpe the place or not 57. Sixtlie your errour is fuÌ„dameÌ„tall 6. Confirmâ— therfore the opposite which the Churche beleeue this a fundamentall truth And consequentlie in your prâ—ciples you must coÌ„fesse that she doth not erre in it for you say she erreth not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talls That your errour is fundameÌ„tall I prooue because that errour is fundamentall which is the ground of infinite errours but yours is the grouÌ„d of infinite errours because it takes away the certaiÌ„tie froÌ„ all Gods word and all deuinitie those fewe pointes onelie excepted which you call fundamentall 58. Moreouer to touch your fundamentalles also 7. Confirm It takes away all certaintie in them first because you leaue noe meanes to knowe which they be and secondlie because you leaue noe meanes to know they be diuinelie reuealed if it were knowne which in particular they al were for the authoritie of the Church proposeth equallie the whole Scripture and therfore if it sufficeth for any chapter or point it sufficeth for euery chapter and euerie point And the Spiritte of God did equallie direct the writer in all and it is Gods word all and therfore if the Spiritts direction or Gods authoritie serue to warrant some it serues to warrant all and if it be not able to warrant all it is vnable to warrant any at all 59. You thinke I haue done now but harke further Your assertion doth scandalize the Christian world if it may be scandalized for you take away all certaintie from the word of God in all pointes and partes but some twelue propositions which you call fundamentall 8. Confirm denying that there is at all any meanes to know certainlie that the rest is Gods word This I proue and I take the Gospell of S. Iohn or to declare it more fullie I take all the Bible and argue thus Either the Spiritte of God doth assist his Church to know certainlie that all in the Bible ouer and aboue your fuÌ„dameÌ„tall pointes is the word of God or it doth not Make your choise If it doth not there is no way to know certainely that it is the word of God for men of themselues and without Gods assistance all might erre especiallie in obscure matters as those are and in this especiallie which is to know whether God spake those wordes or noe If it doth the field is ours for euerie thing there is not one of the fundamentalles 60. The same argumente may be made of the sense of any place for either the place is fundamentall and such are fewe by your accompt or the place is not fundamentall and then excluding the assistance of the Spiritte you haue noe waie to be assured of the sense 61. Let vs oÌ„ to the triall of this argumeÌ„t OpeÌ„ your Bible turne to the first Chapter of Genesis and reade the first verse In the begining God created heaueÌ„ and earth Of this verse I demauÌ„d eight things First whether you be certaine that it is the word of God and how SecoÌ„dlie whether it be a fundamentall place or be not Thirdlie how you doe know certainlie that it is or that it is not fundamentall Fourthlie whether there be meanes to knowe certainlie the sense if neede require Fiftlie what are the meanes which may assure men of the sense Sixtlie whether there be any meanes to knowe certainlie whether in these words be more literall seÌ„ses theÌ„ one Seuenthlie whether the assistance of the Spiritte be or be not necessarie to the certaine knowledge or assurance of these things Eightlie whether this assistance be promised to the Church or to others out of it as to Heretiques and pagans These eight things I demaund about that verse and when you
haue answeared them I goe to the second verse and demaund all the same And theÌ„ I goe to the third aÌ„d demauÌ„d all the same And when this Chapter is done I goe to the next and so on forwards thorough the Bible verse after verse till I come to the last verse in the Apocalyps or Reuelation 62. You will peraduenture meruaile that I doe include that booke too because it is full of obscure mysteries notwithstanding I will alonge thorough that allso with all these demaunds for there are meanes to knowe that it is the word of God and the Assistance of the spirit is sufficient to open the sense of each verse when the circumstances doe require it and you dispute against vs out of it and alleage vnder the title of manifest Scripture free from all ambiguitie the deepest mysteries that are there Moreouer the Prophecies there contained will be manifest in the end as the prophecies in the ould Testament of the Messias aÌ„d his Church are now opeÌ„ to the world The spiritte allso doth open to learned men many thiÌ„gs in the scripture which are hiddeÌ„ froÌ„ the vulgar aÌ„d are not yet by generall decree defined because the coÌ„moÌ„ exigeÌ„ce of the Church requires not the open and publique notice of theÌ„ yet these might be defined if need were as many things by occasioÌ„ of your heresies infesting and endangering Gods people haue bene of late 63. You will allso woÌ„der that I speake of many senses but I haue reasoÌ„ to saie as I doe because Gods word is full of sense as before I said and some tyme so many seÌ„ses doe occurre in the same speach that it is not easie to determine which God intendeth or whether he doth inteÌ„d more theÌ„ one And that I goe not further to fetch examples the words now cited are very hard In the begining God created heauen and earth what is this begining what kind of making doth he speake of what doth he meane by heauen and earth * In the begining God created heauen and earth It is not easie to finde the sense of these words as you will conceaue if you attend and ponder each the begining What is it is it the begining of time which he meanes or the begining of the works of God before he made time or is this begining Gods eternall word or what other thing is signified by these 64. Sainct Augustine a greate Scholler and a man of the Church primitiue and one of Gods elect did search with great diligence and earnest prayer in his ould age for the sense of this place as you may reade in the twelfth booke of his Confessions where hauing acknowledged the scriptureâ—â—o be so profound that it is horrour to looke into theÌ„ he brings many senses of these words and after a longe discussion Aug. l. 12. Confess c. 31. and serious Weighing of the difficultie concludes thus when one saith the prophet vnderstood that which I doe and another that which I. I thiÌ„ke I speake more religiouslie why not both if both be true and if any bodie seeth in these words some third thing or fourth or some other at all whatsoeuer why may not he be beleeued to haue seene all those things by whom one God hath tempered holie writ to many mens iudgments which were to see diuers things then he adds something in commendation of that full kinde of stile and in fine resolues In any wise when he wrote these words he vnderstood and thought whatsoeuer truth wee could find and whatsoeuer wee could not or cannot yet but may be fouÌ„d in them Marke this deuinitie well and remember whose it is 65. I forbeare to speake of the Assistance giuen to the prophets and Euangelists aÌ„d Apostles in all they did write and publish as Gods word which doth affoord me an other argumeÌ„t as hard for you to answere as the former I will not here discouer the gap you laie open to infinite Heresies about admitting about vnderstanding the word of God I loathe to let the world see how scandalous your doctrine iâ—â—â—w you oppose Christianitie vnder the colour of reformatioÌ„ aÌ„d doe what you can to shake the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of the faith that others may stagger in all as you peraduenture doe aÌ„d so the deuill get the day But all your endeuours poore men come to short you shoot your arrowes against heaueÌ„ which they hurt not but wouÌ„d your selues in the returne The Church of God is built on a rocke and a fewe words defend it such is the power of the words of Iesus Christ against all that Heretiques and Pagans and Persecutors and impostors and deuills Matt. 16.18 can attempt Thou art Peeter and vppon this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it These words haue defended it these sixteene hundred years against all aduersaries whatsoeuer and wee were fooles if now wee should be afraid Wee are safe wee are secure The sonne of God is our foundation the holie Ghost is our direction and our Lord round about vs for euer I conclude and because you seeme to take the SCRIPTVRE the SPIRIT IESVS CHRIST for iudges of controuersies when you talke at home before your parish to stop this bragge of yours I heere present this controuersie of ours about the assistance to the SCRIPTVRE to the diuine SPIRIT to IESVS CHRIST in these termes whether the Spirit be to teach some truthes onelie which you call fundamentall or others allso which you call not fundamentall The answeare is ALL. Io. 16.13 The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth These be Gods words I beleeue them and here I rest THE FOVRTH CHAPTER Shewing how Catholikes all beleue the same though some more distinctly then others and the reason why Heretickes agree not 66. THat I may impart vnto you now the manner of discourse which I forme vnto my selfe sometymes in this businesse you must vnderstaÌ„d that the all-teaching Spirit or Holie Ghost is the Spirit of Vnitie aÌ„d that his Organ is the Church wherin he remaines aÌ„d teaches as I haue declared This Spiritte by the foresaid organ or mouth of the Church deliuers the true sense of the Scripture and those which beleeue and submitte their vnderstaÌ„dïg to this iudgmeÌ„t aÌ„d visible tribunall are all one in faith euerie one beleeuing ALL which the Church thus assisted doth hold aÌ„d beleeue and therfore all the same If I thought you coÌ„ceaued not my meaniÌ„g I would deliuer my selfe plainer thus The doctrine of the Catholique Church all together or the collection of points which it holds is but one summe of doctrine or collection of points And not onelie the bodie of the Church takeÌ„ in grosse but euerie Catholique doth beleeue it all And therfore take any two Catholiques whom soeuer where and whensoeuer they liued and their beleefe is the same to the last point or title because each beleeues all that the other beleeues as I haue said But the thing which troubles you
is your ignorance in the manner 67. Knowe therefore secondlie that two waies a mā may beleeue all which the Church teacheth to be true One waie is by acknowledging each point of her doctrine in particular because the Spirit of God in and by her doth auouch it and this faith is vnfoulded An other is by acknowledging in generall and as it were in grosse all to be true which the Church doth teach not descending into the particular consideration of each and this is implicite or infolded faith because in it are infolded all the particulars which the Church doth teach 68. By this distinction of vnfoulded and infoulded faith you now know my meaning and it is this That the faith of all Catholikes both learned ād vnlerned late ād aūciēt is not equallie vnfoulded but yet is all one because that is infolded in ones faith which is vnfoulded with an other And thus a man who reades the Scripture and still doth increase in diuine knowledge learning dailie more and more is of the same religion and the same faith all the while Thus are the people ād their pastors of the same religion though the pastors knowe and beleeue more in particular then the clownes euer heard of Thus was S. Augustine and his mother Monica of one religion though she knewe not all the deuinitie or poīts of faith or Scripture in particular which he knewe Thus were the Corinthians and S. Paul thus are wee and the old Fathers the Fathers and the Apostles of the same religiō and thus is the later Church and the primitiue vnited in faith Because nothing is generallie beleeued now which was not then generallie beleeued though now something be more vnfolded in the generall beleefe of the communitie I saie nothing of some eminent men of those tymes then was by the multitude beleeued in particular or vnfolded then and something might haue bene then vnfolded which is not so commonlie knowne at this tyme. And no doubt but the Apostles knewe more in particular then mē doe nowe 69. By the same doctrine you may vnderstād howe the Catholiques in the whole body frō the Apostles to this daie though infinite haue bene all of one religion and the same with vs notwithstāding that each clowne knewe not all in particular which the learned did yea notwithstāding many learned knewe not all in particular And the reason is because in this principle I beleeue as the Church and followe her iudgment in matter of faith each had ALL whether he were learned or vnlearned and euerie Catholique did this and he who did it not was no Catholique 70. You thinke peraduenture that no two are exactlie of the same religiō vnles their faith be equallie distinct in obiect and vnfolded equallie which conceipt if it were true none were of the same religion with the Apostles in their tyme nor with the holie Fathers in theirs who beleeued not distinctlie and in particular as many points as they did which is a grosse errour in Christianitie and makes as many religions allmost as men Are you in your parish all of one religion or not if you are then by your rule who cannot abide implicite faith each old wife and yonge girle knowes as much in particular in the Bible and Deuinitie as your selfe or if they doe not I praie you tell me how they be exactlie of the same religion with you I knowe you will runne to fundamentalls but the shift will not serue because agreement in fundamentalls in your sense doth not suffize to the exact agreement in religion for wee and you be not of one religiō as all the world knowes and yet you saie that wee disagree not in fundamētalls and indeede there are infinite waies to erre against Faith otherwise he that did obstinatelie denie all the Bible and euerie verse of it excepting those onelie wherin is one of your fundamentalls which fundamētalls as you recon them are verie fewe and contained in the Creede with baptisme and the supper he I saie who did obstinatelie this were no Heretique but a man of your religion exactlie howsoeuer he be detested by the Christian world 71. Hauing declared the reason whie Catholiques are all of one religion by reason of their common vnion in one vniuersall principle containing their particular consent in the rest as occasion doth require to which generall principle they are all moued by the words and promise of Iesus Christ it is not amisse now to looke about for the originall cause why Heretiques are not all of one religion since they resolue all or pretend to resolue their faith into the Scripture or the Spirit I neede not goe farre to finde it out for it is knowne by the definition of an Heretique He is a man who makes his owne election by his priuate iudgment in matter of religion And thence it is that hauing cast of Church authoritie ād putt his owne witt in place to iudge each takes where and what he likes and their iudgments being diuers they take diuers things and expound diuerslie 74. Neither doth the scripture serue the turne in this case first because there is disagreement which is Scripture which cause must be first determined by some iudge and this iudge to each Heretick is his owne witt Secōdlie it is obscure ād therefore there is infinite varietie in guessing at the meaning of it as wee see by the experience of many hundred yeares and in this case likewise each Heretique doth adore his owne iudgment As for the spirit that of God is not among Heretiques but in the Church as I haue prooued since therfore they are not the Church and their Spirit opposite it followes that it is another and that erroneous And by the mulplicitie of iudgments and contradictions among them selues it appeares euidentlie that they are many and no meruaile since each crowcheth vnto his owne since each hath his Maozim within himselfe This therfore is the reason whie Arians Nestorians Lutherans c. though they be all against the Catholique be not of one religion among them selues 73. Neither would the consequence be good if you should argue thus Luther receaues the letter of Scripture and Caluin receaues the letter of Scripture therefore Luther and Caluin are of one Religion it doth not hold I say since they receaue not the same sense nor are vnited in any one common meane to receaue it And were the argument good it would prooue Caluinists and Arians to be of the same Religion since each receaue the letter 74. Hence it comes allso that all Heretiques cannot haue one definition but that euery one is to be defined according to the points he doth hold in particular because of his difference from others in the sense though perhaps he admitte the letter with others And in taking this sense he is not bounded by any authoritie common to him and to other Heretiques but onelie by his owne will and conceit Since therefore there is difference amonge Heretiques and that this
by diuine Reuelation that he is in the Church euer teaching all Truth as I haue declared at large and I haue declared also which is the Church of God but wee haue no diuine Reuelation that he is in N. N. in Iohn Caluin Yea wee knowe he is not in him because he contradicts the Spirit in the Church this Church the Fathers had instruction to the iudgment of this communitie the greatest iudgments did euer stoupe Their practise doth so demonstrate Their books for them confesse it still And this is our practise allso this is our resolution wee confesse it wee professe it wee rest in the iudgment of Gods Spirit in the Catholique Church and to this Tribunall be you neuer so vnwilling you must allso come as I haue declared in this booke and here all * Cōtrouersie must be determined Wee doe not flie the Scripture wee haue it wee haue the Reuerence of Antiquitie on our side and reason pleads for vs but here the cause is ended When you do question the reall presence iustification by woorks S. Peeters primacie and alleage Scripture wee do likewise alleage Scripture and so pregnant that you cannot reallie answeare and then alonge wee goe to be iudged by the diuine spirit in the Church where wee are certaine he is and teacheth all truth When you say this or that booke is not Scripture this was or was not receaued in the primitiue Church the sēse of the letter is this or that Wee examine all and then appeale to to the Spirit in the Church where wee are sure he is suggesting all whatsoeuer the Sonne of God hath reuealed and taught to be receaued and beleeued of men When you pretēd that our doctrine is against reason against holy Fathers against Antiquitie wee produce testimonies of auncient Fathers and reason for our side and then submit the cause to the Spirit in the Church which looking on all truth can iudge best what is most conformable to reason to the Fathers to all Antiquitie And when you say that the Councells contradict one another that there are contradictions in the Scripture Wee are satisfied in these points allso by the Spirit in Church as being the highest Iudge of all cōtrouersies of infinite vnderstanding and no lesse infinite veracitie So that all particular Controuersies do runne into this generall Principle to be resolued and this Principle wee haue in plaine termes from the mouth of God THE FIFT CHAPTER Wherein some exceptions are answeared 82. THe obiections which you and your fellowes make are partlie against the infallibilitie of the Catholique Church in it selfe and partlie against the infallibilitie of generall Councells where Bisshops are assembled out of all Countries to determine commonlie by diuine assistance what belongs to faith and what is cōtrarie therevnto Of this second part it being not the whole Church formallie in it selfe whereof I haue intreated hetherto but the whole in representation onelie as deuines tearme it I will speake a word or two hereafter And will answeare that heere which you bring against the first which is the matter wee haue in hand You are to shewe not that some particular man or some part of the Church might fall of and leaue to be part of the Catholique not-erring Church for that wee see cleerelie in your masters Luther Caluin and others which once were Catholiques ād in the Church of Englād which was in the communion of the Church for a thousand yeeres together and by that communiō Catholique as being then part of Gods Church And is now fallen into schisme and Heresie but you must proue that the Catholique Church may erre in faith or to vse your owne termes that all the Church of God may be in errour affirming and beleeuing contrarie to that which is true in faith 83. And first I obserue that if you did vnderstand your owne principles you would dispaire of the successe of your owne arguments because by those principles of yours all that you can say may iustlie be contemned This I demonstrate for you will either prooue this doctrine of the Churches infallibilitie in the sense wherein wee defend it to be an errour fundamentall or to be some other errour not fundamentall The first you cannot pretend without contradicting your selfe presentlie for you saie allso that the Church cannot erre in fundamentalls and that ours in fundamētalls doth not erre granting withall when you are well vrged that ours is the Church and if you should start backe and denie it againe you will finde it vnder double proofe in another place The Second you cannot as much as pretend to prooue and demonstrate in your principles because according to thē you can take no meanes whereof you are certaine not reason for all men may erre in obscure matters nor Fathers for in your principles all might erre nor place of Scripture for you haue no meanes to knowe certainlie that it is the word of God the place not being one of your fundamentalles nor the Spirit because in not fundamentalls he assisteth not as you say and maintaine in this question or if he doth assist in this verie matter whether you call it fundamentall or not fundamentall he doth assist the Church for to the Church is the promise made 84. Thus you very wiselie haue ouer reached your selfe and left your selfe no meanes to prooue any thing against vs either in this controuersie or in any other for fundamentallie you confesse wee haue not erred and in other things by your owne principles you are not certaine Yet to gull the people you bringe texts not fundamentall according to your distinction and cry out Scripture Scripture the Gospell the word of God And if you finde a place in S. Augustine which neither your parishioners nor your selfe doe vnderstand you challenge vs to the Fathers whereas in your conscience you beleeue for certaine neither Fathers nor scripture but onelie some places which you call fundamentall neither do you acknowledge anie meanes in the world either from God or man to be sure of things not fundamentall as you tearme them as I haue shewed before and the same these your protestant arguments which followe would faine prooue 85. The first argument to this end is made against the Church in the state of the old lawe before the cōming of the Messias and therfore is nothing to the purpose because wee speake of the Christian Church as it is established by Iesus Christ and gouerned by his Spirit which Church is not limited vnto one Nation onelie but ouer all the world and therefore Catholique and of this I haue proued and wee do beleeue that in faith it is infallible Notwithstanding to maintaine the infallibilitie of the Iewish Church too before the Messias came which is an other questiō I resolue your doubt made against it You say the people of Israel did adore the brazen calfe therefore the Church all did erre You should haue prooued that all did adore the calfe that Moyses and the Leuites
it hath beene so farre from this that for a thousand yeares together there was a deepe sileÌ„ce in the world and no Protestant sermon heard yea Luther did verie earnestlie listen after such a sermon Luth. de Missa prâ—uata ton 7. but his learned eares could heare none saue onelie from the diuell one and that indeed he hath registred in his writings 115. Hauing entred into the consideration of your inuisible Church I will be bould to looke about me where are your Superintendents how do they exercise their office without being seene Your Ministers of this Church who creates them and how is euerie one a minister or some sheepe and some pastors how do you knowe the pastors from the sheepe the ministers from other men are all Apostles 1. Cor. 12. v. 28.29 are all prophets are all Doctors are all miracles haue all the grace of cures do all speake with toÌ„gues do all interprete who do who doe not how may one knowe how do you knowe v. 27. S. Paul saith some verily God hath set in the Church first Apostles secondlie Prophets thirdlie Doctors next miracles then the graces of doing cures helpes gouerments kinds of tongues Are these things in the inuisible Church and if they be not there how is it the Catholique Church are there tongues in that deepe silence is there gouerment in that confusion are there helpes and cures where no man seeth anothers wants and miseries miracles and none wonder Doctors and no Schollers Prophets and Apostles and no preaching of the word Where are the pulpits where are your communion tables how are the collectioÌ„s made do you meete onelie in the night or in the daie or not at all what calles you together if you meete a signe that may be seene a sound that might be heard and you might be found which is against the nature of a Church inuisible Your assemblies for a thousand yeares together how were they made and where or did none preach all that tyme did no Bisshops gouerne did all beleeue and so long and so ordinarily without preachers how could that be how could your people inuocate in whom they beleeued not how could they beleeue whom they heard not and how could they heare without a preacher Answere for your Church and teach S. Paul something which he knewe not If you admit gouermeÌ„t aÌ„d instruction and order in that Church you grant it to be visible for these things are visible If you denie them you cannot shewe how those your imagined predecessors had any faith and were a Church militant So that you puzzle your owne selfe in this busines and are ouer come without an aduersarie 116. I note it therfore for a particular weakenes in your braine that determining to feine a Church of predecessors you had not so much wit as to inuent a thinge which did not infold a contradiction in it selfe as this doth for being inuisible it hath no preachers for preachers are visible things now where there are no preachers there is no faith where there is no faith there is no Church the Church being a Congregation or Societie of faithfull people therefore in making a Church inuisible you make the same thinge to be a Church and no Church Againe there are no Saincts where there is no sanctitie there is no sanctitie where there is no faith no faith where there is no preaching no preaching where the is no mission Rom. 10.15 no mission where there is no gouerment no gouerment where there are no gouerners And in an inuisible coÌ„panie there are no gouerners therefore froÌ„ the first to the last there are in it no Saincts Notwithstanding it hath nothing else you say but Saincts So that it hath people in it it is a Societie of Saincts if wee beleeue you and yet hath not a Sainct in it which is another contradiction 117. Moreouer this Church of yours hath preached continuallie Protestantisme in all Nations because in all Nations you haue had Saincts if your imagination be admitted and sanctitie is grounded in faith He that â—hall be ashamed of â—â—me and of my words him the sonne of man shall be ashamed of When he â—hall come â—n his Maâ—esty Luke 9. â—6 faith gotten by hearing as I said before yet all this tyme she hath not spoken but was ashamed of her owne faith Now how these two hange together do you iudge If you thinke I doe you wronge in accusing your Church of silence take in hand againe the Argument of the first booke produce euidence of anie one man yours or ours frind or foe ChristiaÌ„ Turke or Athiest that euer heard a Protestant speake in any place of all the world a rome wide ynough in any part of fifteene hundred yeeres before Luther a tyme longe inough or euer since the begining of the world if you would haue a longer space and though this will not serue for a Church of all NatioÌ„s yet will it shewe that you know something more then all your fellowes and that you haue profited a little since you wrotte last As for the credibilitie of your deuice they will beleeue yet another Gospell on your bare word against all the euidence in the world that beleeue this conceipt of yours and euerie yonge Logician that hath heard his master talke of Chimeraes can make as good and ground them as solidlie as you doe for euerie child knoweth that the Church militant is a Societie of men seruing God which men are not meere Spirits but things visible the Societie of theÌ„ allso is a thing visible teaching baptizing ruling conuerting Nations confuting Heresies are visible acts In nullum nomeÌ„ Religionis seu verum seu falsum coagulari homines possunt nisi aliquo signaculorum vel Sacramentorum visibilium consortio colligeÌ„tur S. Aug. li. 19. cont Faust c. 11. and acts of the Church of God Man oweth vnto God visible acts of worshippe and not inuisible only praise sacrifice Sacraments are visible things the word of God is visible yea God comming to raise this Church did exhibite himself heere visible God himself was seene with mens eies as I told you in the second booke and if you be a Christian you beleeue it The Church which you speake of being inuisible can be no Societie and therefore no Church And as it is no Church but a Chimericall non ens so the acts of it proportionablie be negatiue it hath conuerted no Nations it hath confuted no Heresies it hath brought vp no Saincts Before Luther it was in no place it administred no Sacraments it made no Sermons It had no conscience no mouth no face 118. Vnworthie therefore is this fiction of yours to be compared to the Church of God these imaginarie Saints of yours to the Saints of Allmightie God these dombe preachers to the Apostles of Iesus Christ and their Successors this vnsociable societie not daring to appeare or whisper a fore men for many huÌ„dred yeeres to that Church which hath
had allwayes Gods Spirit in her hart and Gods word in her mouth which hath conuerted Nations condemned Heresies assembled Councelles maintained order administred Sacraments and bred Saincts To the Church described in the Scripture To the visible To the Catholique Church 119. It may be that your selfe by this tyme are wearie of your owne inuention to the end therefore I may giue you scope to interprete your selfe better then you haue done hetherto I will aske a question or two more and make and end Either it is sufficient to saluation to followe the instruction of the visible Church or no if it be not sufficient then God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for instruction for without a preacher men cannot beleeue as I haue tould you oft from S. Paul If it be sufficient then leaue vs to followe this instruction to be directed by this Church wee haue that wee looke for I haue prooued heretofore that the Church hath Gods words euer in her mouth and that she deliuereth true doctrine without errour fundamentall or other I demaund now whether the predestinate do beleeue this doctrine this religiō thus perpetuallie taught or not if they doe not they be not of the true Religion they be not the sheepe of Christ for his sheepe doe heare his voice Io. 10. they may be your predecessors they are not ours they are Saincts of your making but not Gods elect If they doe then this visible Church ād Gods predestinate are all of one Religiō one faith one body mysticall they all make one Church Speake plainlie man the Religion which God maketh the Church to professe allwaies is it true or false if false how is it Gods instruction You haue profited sure exceedinglie by your Spirit if now you taxe God with false doctrine if it be true wee may followe it wee must followe it The predestinated people are they of this Religion thus professed or are they of an other if of an other Gal. 1. ◠Cor. 16. I haue nothing to doe with them anathema anathema if they be of this Religion all is well 120. To conclud that the Church of God is one and visible and that the predestinate are in it hath bene the sense and faith of all the Catholique world who haue all hoped to be saued in this Church in the visible Church of God it hath bene the faith of all the auncient Fathers and Doctors of the Church who acknowledged themselues children of it and were directed by it it hath bene the faith of the Saincts and predestinate themselues who did here beleeue as wee doe and God hath by miracles and other wayes manifested their sanctitie vnto the world And finallie it is the sense of the Spirit of the Catholique Church which cannot erre in such a point as I haue prooued larglie and you in your grounds should confesse because the thing is fundamentall and therefore it is a signe of extraordinarie stupiditie or malice or both to stagger in it THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Two other arguments are answered 121. IF any of your arguments should escape vntouched you would bragge of their streingth and therefore I am glad I haue ouertaken other two before they gette out of my memorie The first is Whittak Rainolds That which may happē to any one may happē to all or to euerie one But to erre may happē to any Church adde for ought you know for thus it did happē to the Churches of Thiatira Corinth c. therefore it may happē to euery one or to all ād so all at ōce may erre Thus you I haue some cause to thinke you haue a wide mouth suppose you cā thrust ā egge into it A clowne there might dispute in your forme ād moode thus That which may happē to any one of the egges in your parish may happen to all or to euerie one but to be thrust into your mouth at once may happen to any one of those egges therefore it may happen to them all and then your mouth will be stopt Now if one mouthfull be not inough for your dinner you may fall next to the meate and eate it all euery bit for that which may happen to any bit may happē to euery bit the clowne your Scholler would say and ofterwards at the same meale you might drinke all the drinke euery cupfull euery drop 122. Suppose all the men in England should cast the dice for a thousand pound with these conditiōs that the first which threwe twelue with two dice should haue it and if none threwe twelue the monie should be yours To see faire play ād to doe you all the fauour wee can wee will suppose the dice to be iust ād no tricke vsed at all The first may throwe ames ace I suppose the least for your good but it is fiue to one he will not Yet admitt he doth It is fiue to one the second doth not yet admitt his cast be ames ace too for what chāce might happen to the other might happen to him Thus I will run on till I come to twentie and surelie it is much that twentie one after another should haue the same cast and the dice exactlie iust It is not probable that it would hould on so to a hundred yet what might happen to any one might happen say you to euery one It is incredible it should goe on in the same chāce to a thousand yet in your logicke this guggion must be swallowed after his fellowes But that it should run thorough them all it is not possible for then fortune would be constant and cōtingencie would prooue to be a neeessity which no man will say who knowes what he saith yet this must downe your throate too for what may happen to any one may happen to euerie one that so in the end you may get to your selfe the thousand pound The like might happen if all the men that are in the world should cast the dice and should haue done so euer since dice were first inuented because what might happen to any one might as you say happen to euery one And when each had throwne he might die before you and cōsequentlie all might doe so in your principles so you should be the onelie man a liue ād haue all their money too And thus much to let you see the weake forme of your argumēt which nothwithstādīg is one of the maine foundatiōs where on your mē do build their doctrine of the fallibility of Gods Church 123. Now to the matter of the argument I answeare that allmighiie God is infinite and therfore none can hinder his designe or make frustrate his intention Wherfore since he hath decreed to keepe allwayes to the worlds end a Church on earth infallible in doctrine as I haue declared by the testimony of holy Scripture his prouidence will effect it and make it perseuere in what persons and what places he please Wee haue no reuelation thath the true faith shall perseuere allwayes in France or in
what you list you set vppon the Pastor It is defined in the Councell of Florence that the Bisshop of Rome is successor to sainct Peeter and that he hath receaued in him sainct Peeter from our Sauiour power to feede and to gouerne the whole Church This is one of the things which you cannot abide a Superiour you thinke is a heauie burden ād therefore you would shake him of The Apostles say you were according to Cyprian equall in honour and dignitie Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Ieron adu Iou. Leo ep 84. The strength of the Church was equallie established on them all in the opinion of Hierom and with Leo they had a likenes in honour This is the first onset wherein you shewe neither skill nor iudgment You had but latelie discharged all the Fathers for vnable men and therefore it was an vnaduised part in you now to summō them to fight vnder your colours for you may iustlie feare that in tyme of tryall they will declare themselues to be ō our side who haue euer reuerēced and defended thē ād not on yours where they and the Church authoritie and the Spirit of Gods Church are dis-esteemed and contemned 3. But I answeare that before S. Peeter was made Pastor the Apostles were all equall after he was made Pastor they were not equall S. Peeter was then chiefe ād Superior The rest of the Apostles had power giuen them to preach the Gospell to forgiue sinnes to binde ād loose to doe miracles but onelie S. Peeter had the prerogatiue of Pastor as the Scripture doth euidentlie declare And heereby he was otherwise compared vnto the flocke then any of the rest ◠c. 6. n. 52 with whom he had all the forenamed but excelled in this that they being Legates or Apostles onely in regard of their generall iurisdiction he was Pastor of the Church This is the doctrine of those Fathers which you haue cited as you may see in their books and to saue you the labour of looking further I will shewe it in the very same places you alleage The Church saith S. Ierom is founded on Peeter S. Ieron adu Iouin ◠1. though in another place it be donne vpon them all and all receiue the keyes of heauen and the strenght of the Church be equallie establisshed vppon all These things were equallie donne before S. Peeter was made Pastor they were all equallie made Apostles and foundations and had equallie the keyes but afterwards of these Apostles thus equall one was created Pastor the rest remaining as they were who remained therefore vnequall to this one which was Peeter 10. 21. as you know by the Gospell of S. Iohn and in regard hereof S. Hierome doth adde immediately to the words but now cited yet saith he for this one of the twelue is chosen that a HEADE being constituted the occasion of schisme might be taken away Capite cōstituto So now they are vnequall because one is made heade S. Cyprian doth teach the same in the place you cite Although saith he after his resurrection he our Sauiour giues equall power saying as my father sent me so do send you S. Cyp. de vnit eccl take the holy Ghost c. where the power of remitting sinnes is equallie bestowed on all yet that he might declare vnitie he by his authoritie disposed the ORIGEN of the same Vnitie BEGINING FROM ONE * Quamuis Apostolis omnibus c. tamen vt vnitatem manifestaret vnam Cathedram constituit vnitatis eiusdē originem ab vno incipientem sua authoritate disposuit Hoc erant vtique caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis sed exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur Primatus Petro datur vt vna Christi Ecclesia Cathedra vna monstretur S. Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Heere S. Cyprian doth shew what course Our blessed Sauiour tooke to keepe manifest vnitie in his Church and among the Apostles themselues He our Sauiour disposed being must wise an Origen Roote or cause of Vnitie which Vnitie he would haue in his Church and amongst all the Parts of it This Origē or Roote was not a multitude equally gouerning the Church but it was ONE that is Peeter whom our Sauiour made Pastor of his Church and vppō whō he built it as S. Cyp. noted a little before and therefore he saith he disposed the Origē of this Vnitie begining frō ONE So that wee haue in this very place the Primacie of S. Peeter in that he is the Roote and Origen of Vnitie in the whole Body wherein the Apostles were and allso the reason of the Institution of this Primacie or Origen in One. In another place he doth specifie it more particularly saying that The Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie is the CHAIRE that is the Pastorall Authoritie Nauigare audent ad Petri Cathedrā atque ecclesiam Principalē vnde vnitas sacerdotalis exorta est li. 1. ep 3. Vna Ecclesia à Christo Domino nostro super petram origine vnitates ratione fundata l. 1. ep 12. of Peeter And now I hope you wil beleeue it is his mind heering it out of his owne mouth Againe he saith that the Church is founded on a rocke in the Origē of Vnitie And that the Church is founded on Peeter which place S. Augustine doth allso alleage in his booke against the Donatists and in the same place which I must note heereby the way he atributeth expreslie the Primacie to Peeter Lastlie S. Cyprian saith the See of Rome is the Mother or Matrice and Roote of the Catholique Church Now if S. Peeter be the foundation or Rocke of the Catholique Church and the Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie wee may conclude that he is as S. Ierom said the Heade S. Leo doth teach very well that their election was equall they had many things and among the rest Apostolicall dignitie equallie bestowed on them but afterwards one was particularly made Pastor of the Church the Roote of Priestlie Vnitie and Superior to the * Cyprianus in Ep ad Quintum ita loquitur nam nec Petrus inquit quem primum Dominus eleget super quem a dificauit Ecclesiam suam cum secum Paulus disceptaret c. S. Aug. l 2 con Donat. c. 1. Apostolum Petrum in quo Primatus Apostolorum tam excellenti gratia praeeminet c. Ibid. Hortatos esse vt Ecclesiae Catholicae Matricem Radicem agnoscerent tenerent S. Cyp. l. 4. Ep. 8. vide eundem l. 1. ep 3. l. 4. ep 9. rest Vni tamen datum est vt caeteris praeemineret S. Leo. ep 84. S. Leo serm 3. de Anniuers Ass die qui praeponatur which donne they were not in ALL respects equall His words are Among the most blessed Apostles in similitude of honour was a certaine DISTINCTION OF POWER and whereas the Election of all was equall to one was granted that he should be EMINENT ABOVE
the rest Againe Out of all the world saith he Peeter alone is chosen who is constituted ouer the vocation of all Nations and ouer ALL THE APOSTLES and ouer all the Fathers of the Church that al though among Gods people there be many Priests and many Pastors yet Peeter PROPERLIE GOVERNE THEM ALL whom principally Christ doth also gouerne Ep. 89. Apostolorū summo And he saith further of the Pastorall office that Our lord would haue the Sacrament of this function so to appertaine to the office of all the Apostles that he placed it principallie in blessed Peeter the chiefest of all the Apostles that from him as from a certaine HEADE he might diffuse his guiftes into the whole Bodie 4. You Obiect that Leo could not prooue by Scripture that he said But I demaund then why do you alleage his authoritie if you will not stand to it your self I demand secondly which of all the Fathers after him did note this doctrine in him an erroneous or not currant He was a greate Scholler and a Sainct and in the communion of all the Christian world in his tyme. Yet to giue you further content I will put downe the Scripture whereon the doctrine of S. Leo S. Hierō and the rest is grounded There be two chiefe places the first is in the 16. of S. Matth. And Iesus answearing said blessed art thou Simon Bar Iona c. and I say to thee thou art Peeter and VPPON THIS ROCKE will I build MY Church or thus I say to thee Simon thou art Cephas and vppon this Cephas which thou art I will build My Church Heere the demonstratiue this doth point at the thing whereuppon the Church is built vppon this Cephas will I build my Church and Simon is this thing Thou Simon art Cephas and vppon this I build This sense you cannot EXCLVDE without contradicting the words of Iesus Christ Now therefore If you aske the Scripture who is * Deus vnus est Ecclesia vna Cathedra vna super PETRVM Domini voce fundata S. Cyprian ep 40. PETRVS super QVEM adificata ab eodem Domino fuerat Ecclesia vnus pro omnibus loquens c. Id. Ep. 55. Sicut ipse lumen Apostolis donanie vt lumen mundi appellarentur caeteraque ex Domino sortiti sunt vocabula ita SIMONI qui credebat in Petram Christum Petri largitus est nomen secundum metaphoram petrae rectè dieitur ei adificabo Ecclesiam meam super TE S. Hieron in cap. 16. Matth. Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens Beatitudini tuae id est CATHEDRAE PETRI communione consocior super ILLAM PETRAM adificatam Ecclesiam scio Id. Ep. 57. ad Damasum Dominus constituit PETRVM primum pastolorum PETRAM firmam super QVAM Ecclesia adificata est c portae inferorum non valebunt aduersus eam portae inferorum sunt Haereses Haeresiarihae iuxta OMNEM enim MODVM in IPSO firmata est fides S. Epiphan in Ancorato Hic est qui audiuit ab ipso Pasce agnos meos CVI concreditum est ouile Ibid. PETRVS qui paulo ante eum confessus erat filium Dei in illa confessione APPELLATVS ERAT PETRA super QVAM fabricaretur Ecclesia paulo post Domino dicēte c. S. Aug. Enar. Ps 69. Vide eundem li. 2 de Bap. cont Donat. c. 1. Intuitus eum Iesus dixit tu es Simon filius Iona tu vocaberis Cephas quod interpretatur Petrus c. Vocabulo commode significans quod IN EO tanquam in Petra lapideque firmissimo suam esse adificaturus Ecclesiam S. Cyr. Alex. l. 2. in Io. c. 12. vide l. 12. c. 64. Ego dico tibi inquit tu es Petrus ego SVPER TE aedificabo Ecclesiam meam ego TIBI dabo claues regni calorum S. Chrysost hom 55. in Matth. Vnus de toto mundo eligitur Petrus qui vniuersarum Gentium vocationi OMNIBVS APOSTOLIS cunctisque Ecclesiae Patribus PRAEPONATVR vt quamuis in populo Dei multi Sacerdotes sint multique Pastores OMNES tamen PROPRIE REGAT Petrus quos principaliter regit Christus S. Leo serm 3. de Anniuers Assumpt Tu quoque petra es quia mea virtute solidaris vt quae mihi potestate sint propria sint tibi mecum participatione communia Ibid. Cunctis Euangelium scientibus liquet quod voce Dominica sancto omnium APOSTOLORVM Petro PRINCIPI Apostolo TOTIVS Ecclesiae cura commissa est IPSI quippe dicitur Pasce oues meas confirma fratres tuos tu es Petrus super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam tibi dabo claues c. S. Gregor Magn◠4 Ep. 32. ad Mauritium August Cura ei TOTIVS ECCLESIAE PRINCIPATVS committitur Ibid. Had not these saincts as good eies as Luther the thing in this place vppon which the Church is built it doth answere that it is PEETER here called CEPHAS Moreouer if you aske the Fathers S. Leo S. Hierom S. Aug. S. Cyprian S. Epiphanius S. Chrysostō S. Gregorie they answere it is PEETER If you thinke I interpret them amisse See the 1. Book c. 6. n. 52. As if you should say this points at Christ or any other thing Without inuoluing Peeter aske your Fellowes and they will tell you the Fathers did thinke so And the exclusion of this sense is open violence to the Text and makes it vncoherent Hence I may deduce two things heere The first The Church of Christ was built vppō Peeter for our Sauiour was as good as his word and he said he would doe it The second The rest of the Apostles were built vppon Peeter For if they were the Church of Iesus Christ they were built vppon him because our Sauiours Church which was but one in all was built on him Or if they were in the Church of Iesus Christ as partes in the whole If the Whole be built vppō a foundation each part in that whole is built thereon this Church this whole being built on Peeter on this rocke will I build my Church they being contained therein that is being parts of the whole thing built on Peeter were allso built on Peeter And so Peeter was their Foundation and their Heade subordinate vnto Christ the chiefe Heade and maine Foundation of them all You cannot auoide this discourse because the Apostles were not Infidelles or Heretiques ād therefore either they were the Church or they were in the Church The second place is that in the Gospell of sainct Iohn Peeter Feede my sheepe by which words sainct Peeter peculiarlie is made Pastor of the sheepe of Christ Vide S. Bern. l. 2. de cons ad Eug. pap Hence I argue thus The rest of the Apostles were our Sauiours sheepe therefore sainct Peeter was their Pastor for our Sauiour made him Pastor of his sheepe If you say they were not our Sauiours sheepe then they were not his Disciples he was not
their Pastor he redeemed them not for he gaue his life for his sheepe If they were our Sauiours sheepe they were also commended to sainct Peeter 10. 10. for our Sauiour made him Pastor of HIS sheepe without excepting any By this you may vnderstaÌ„d a place of S. Augustine obiected some tymes Si hoc Petro tantuÌ„ c. tract 50. in IoaÌ„ Cuius Eccesiae Petrus Apostolus propter Apostolatus sui primatum gerebat figurata generalitate personam Idem Aug. in Io. tr 6. Your exception heere is that what was spoken to Peeter was spoken to all and that Peeter did represeÌ„t the Church wheÌ„ he tooke Authoritie from Iesus Christ Answeare If you meane it was in proportion and secondarilie spoken to all the rest and not onelie to the Apostles but allso to all other lawfull Pastors in the world I graunt it but this will not make theÌ„ all equall If you meane that it was equallie and immediatelie said to all your glosse is false and contrarie to the text He said to him Peeter feede my sheepe Peeter was nor all the Apostles As for the representation I answeare that S. Peeter tooke the office at the haÌ„ds of Iesus Christ for himselfe to vse and for his successors aÌ„d for all the Pastors of the Church as farre at it should be couenient to make them partakers of this power and sollicitude vlt. propter primatum quem in discipulis habuit id in psal 108. for the common good of the whole Church and he in this did represent them all according as I haue declared because all his successors and all inferior Pastors to the worlds end could not in their owne persons be there to receaue this power and the Church her selfe was no otherwise to take the power I speake of but by the haÌ„ds of her Pastor because the coÌ„munitie of Christians could not exercise that office of gouerning or being Pastor in regard this communitie was the flocke 8. By that which I haue said here in this Chapter you finde excluded your fellowes tale of Phocas first instituting the office of a generall Pastor in the Church For if the scripture may be beleeued Io. 21. cited in Coccius and Gualterius our Sauiour did institute this office or Authoritie And thus much was acknowledged by the Fathers of the primitiue Church aÌ„d exercised by the Popes Successors to saint Peeter before Phocas euer appeared in this world It is true that Emperours might second what our Sauiour had ordained before to the end the Imperiall decree thus waiting on the diuine institutioÌ„ meÌ„ respecting the temporall power might stand in feare to transgresse who would otherwise preuaricate notwithstanding the divine institution so many forbeare stealing for feare of temporall lawes whom Gods eternall lawe would not moue to forbeare In this kinde Phocas decreed that the Pope should be accompted heade though the title were due to him by vertue of a higher InstitutioÌ„ aÌ„d he stiled heade of Bishops before this as you may finde in the fourth generall a Quibus tu quidem sicut membris caput praeeras c. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem rogamus tuis decretis nostrum honora in iudicium sicut nos capiti in bonis adiecimus consonantiam sic summitas tua filijs quod decet adimpleat ibid. Councell Neither doth the title of Oecumenicall or Vniuersall Bisshop in the seÌ„se wee take it any way derogate vnto the rest their titles of Bisshops as Philosophers giuing the title of vniuersall cause to a cause supereminent as to the suÌ„ne or to God hereby take not away the name of cause from particular in this lower world as from horses fire men But yet if you take vniuersall in an other sense not for that which is eminent ouer many particulars but for that which so hath all within it selfe that none answearing to the name is without it as b Si vnus Patriarcha vniuersalis dicitur Patriarcharum nomen caeteris derogatur S Greg. l. 4. ep 36. put that of causes in the same forme Si vna causa vniuersalis dicitur causarum nomeÌ„ caeteris derogatur And tell me now in what sense the proposition is true Si vniuersalem me Papam vestra sanctitas dicit negat se hoc esse quod me fatetur vniuersum â— Greg. l. 7. ep 36. indic 1. ad Eulog Alex He that in this sense should arrogate the title of Vniuersall Bisshop were a fore runner of Antichrist saint Gregorie did vnderstand it so neither is the Sunne an vniuersall cause nor the Pope vniuersall Bisshop because there are more causes besides the sunne and more Bisshops besides the Pope THE SECOND CHAPTER The Pope aboue other Bishops I haue donne with the comparison of sainct Peeter to the rest of the Apostles it followes now that I consider what comparison his successor the Pope hath vnto the Patriarkes and other Bishops Your labour is to equall others with him in authoritie To this purpose you first make vse of the Grecians proceedings in the Councell of Chalcedon where the Byshops you say did equall the Constantinopolitan See with the Roman I answeare first that this adequation pretended was not in originall or prime authoritie but in matter of priuiledge as in the words it is expreslie set downe to enioy equall priuiledges c. aequis senioris regia Roma priuilegiis frâ—â—â— c. Conc. Chalc. acâ—â— 16. Now priuiledge is a distinct thinge from originall authoritie and accessorie thereunto The priuiledges they did ayme at were that the Bisshop of Constantinople should in his proportion haue a maiestie in Ecclesiasticall affaires aboue other Sees Rome excepted in regard that Constantinople was then the Imperiall seate as before Rome had bene and therefore that he should take place of other Patriarckes aÌ„d be second or next after him of Rome And with all that he should ordaine Metropolitans in the Dioceses of Pontus Asia and Thrace These priuiledges they did aime at and hereby would haue had a kinde of analogie with the Romane Bishop this attempt of the Grecians Leo then Pope would by no meanes approue and the decree which the Bishops had coÌ„ceaued he did anulle Wee do vtterly saith he make void and by the authoritie of the blessed Apostle Peeter S. Leo. Ep. 55. ad pul Aug. do with a general definition wholy disanull the consents or decrees of the Bishops which were repugnant to the rules of the Canons made at Nice Hence I answeare secondlie that the decree wanting the consent and approbation of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical and therefore were it vnderstood of original authoritie as it is euident it was not and that the Byshops would therin not by proportion onely but absolutly haue equalled an other Bishop with the Roman it would not suffice because a Councell when it is not Oecumenicall doth not containe the full power of the Church to define or make decrees but may mistake and erre 10. Since
you cannot speede there you endeuoure by the Nicene Councell to prooue the Bishop of Alexandria to be thus equall to the Roman and that the Romā Bisshop was there limited by the Councell as well as others I haue looked on that canon but see nothing for your purpose The Bisshop of Alexandria is not said there to be equall to the Roman Bishop neither is there any speach of limiting the Roman to the west as you pretend The words are Conc. Nicen can 6. Let the auncient custome be kept in Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis that the Bisshop of Alexandria haue power ouer all these because the Roman Bisshop hath such a custome Here the Popes custome is a reason whie the Bisshop of Alexandria is to haue power ouer Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis whereby is insinuated that the Bisshop of Alexandria therein depended on the Popes accustomed manner of gouermēt which argues a superioritie in the Pope not an equalitie in the other Your explicatiōs you must prooue to be text if you will haue me to beleeue thē Meane while neither in this Councell can you finde any thing for your cause vnles wee childishlie will take a glosse for the text and giue you equall authoritie with a generall Coūcell in assertiōs and decrees If the Romā Bisshop had there bene with his owne consent limited to the west for exercise of Patriarchal authoritie I would āsweare that he sustaining diuers offices in one and the same person might be more limited in regard of the one then of the other his Patriarchall power might be contained with in the west though his Pastorall Iurisdiction reached ouer the whole Church as man hath the power of seeing restrained vnto coloured Obiects but his power of vnderstanding reaches further to the whole latitude of being 11. Failing againe this way you stand still like a stocke and refuse to acknowledge any successor to sainct Peeter in his generall care and Pastorall office because you cannot see what necessitie there is of a Successor It seemes you are growne dull with disputing and would heare me rather speake I am contented A Successor in that office was ād is necessarie first because the Church at all tymes needs a generall Pastor ād visible Foundatiō as well as it did in the begining since therefore the Christiā Church is to endure till the worlds ēd Visible Pastor such as sainct Peeter was the Pastor ād visible Foūdatiō must likewise endure to confirme and to direct it secondlie Peeter in person could not feede ād rule all the sheepe of Christ from his tyme till the words end our Sauiour therefore prouiding the Church of a Pastor that might feede ād rule thē did in the persō of S. Peeter vnderstand his Successors in that office that so the sheepe might allwayes haue a Pastor to rule and feede them Otherwise the greatest part of the flocke that is all after S Peeters dayes till the worlds end should haue no generall Pastor here on earth though they wanted him no lesse yea more then did the Christians in sainct Peeters time Thirdlie the best forme of gouerment is Monarchicall something tempered with Aristocracie and the more Nations are added to the Church the more neede of a Monarch One is vndeuided in himselfe his iudgment and his principles are the same but a multitude is diuided ād the greater the multitude the more varietie of iudgmēt the greater the varietie of inclinatiōs dispositiōs affectiōs ād iudgment is the more neede there is of a cause of Vnitie to keepe them in One which would neuer be if euery mā freelie might chose his way and be a rule vnto himselfe Wee see this in Heretiques who hauing no visible cause of vnion in matter of faith doe runne sundry wayes Arius one Nestorius another and so to the very last Philosophers ould and moderne haue gonne seuerall waies and filld the Schooles with questions which will neuer be decided their iudgments being directed by no One. Seuerall Nations haue diuers lawes according to the different opinions of their Rulers and Lawe-makers the like would be in England if each Shire were independent of another and of a Monarch or common couerner In religion allso each Minister would haue his way Now the Church was to haue it it all Nations and in them is infinite varietie of iudgment 10. 10. id c. 21. wherefore our Sauiour to containe them all in one did ordaine a Monarch there shall be made one Fould and one Pastor Peeter feede my sheepe Act. 20. And tempering this Monarchie with Aristocracie he putte Bysshops allso to rule the Church Fourthlie it was necessarie that in the Church there should be one to attend generallie to the whole to call generall Councells to be President there to containe the multitude of Bishops in Vnitie and to haue a care principallie of the Churches generall affaires which care our Sauiour gaue to sainct Peeter as an Ordinarie Office in that he made him Pastor of his Fold the Christian Church and if it were necessarie then in the Apostles daies much more it is now Fiftly Pastors are to continue in the Church till the end of the world by the doctrine of S. Paul therefore the chiefe Pastor is likewise to continue which could not be in one person therefore in diuers If you say that our Sauiour himselfe is chiefe Pastor Ephes 4. I replie that amonge visible Pastors one is chiefe though subordinate vnto Christ and he is to remaine as well as the rest of the clergie and his existence is necessarie for the Gouerment of the Church Our Sauiour doth continuallie teach and baptize but by others and so doth he cōtaine the Church in Vnity and gouerne by subordinate meanes ordained and instituted for this purpose as God lights the world with the Sūne though if he had so pleased he could haue donne it otherwise 12. What you pretend about Election of a Successor is not hard the Church designes the Person and then he receaues power from our Sauiour in vertue of the first institution as man disposeth matter in the generation of a man and nature presents it so prepared vnto the Creator who by vertue of the first institution of mankinde inspires a sowle which the generant could not make It is true that the Churches action is hindered sometymes by Schisme or other meanes as mans generation is likewise hindred otherwhile but such hindrances are in tyme remoued and the Successor designed Neither is the Succession interrupted properlie in this tyme because this Election is a continuation of it So that all you haue said about the tyme of Schisme might haue bene spared because then the Church was busie in determining a successor though she were hindred sometymes more sometymes lesse according to the difficulties which did occurre 13. To conclude your opposition in this matter you take vpon you not to knowe who doth succede sainct Peeter But if you had lookt aboute you could not haue doubted First because
is not in the a mouthes of the faithfull that b thing is not in the forme of breade Iudas did not c receaue the body but onely a peece of breade That in the Chalice was neuer d in our Sauiours side The body which the Sages worshipped is not oÌ„ the e Altar The bodie of Christ is not f heere on earth nor in the dimensions wee do see touch and receaue Christ is not g Sacrificed on the Altar by the Priest The humanitie of Christ is not on the h Altar Compare it 48. Fiftly it being the same bodie which is in heauen Christ I say being in the Eucharist aÌ„d the Fathers professing this it followeth that he is there allso in the Eucharist to be adored and this the Fathers allso did acknowledge you remember what I repeated euen now out of S. Chrysostome take more out of others S. Gregorie saith of his sister Gorgonia S Greg. Naz. orat 11. She prostrateth her selfe with faith before the Altar and with a greate crie calleth on him who is 1 worshippeed on it the said Altar You must obserue heere that S. Gregorie doth not onely declare the action of his Sister but allso the Custome of the primitiue Church in these words who is worshipped on it and then you will see that Christians in those dayes did worshippe our Sauiour on the Altar S. Augustine S. Aug in â—sal 98. Our Sauiour tooke flesh of the virgin Marie aÌ„d because he walked heere in that flesh and hath giuen vs that flesh to be eaten to Saluation and no man eateth that flesh vnles he first adore 2 it behold wee haue found our in what manner such a foote-stoole of our Lords feete his flesh may be adored and how that wee doe not sinne by adoring it Id. Ep. 120. c. 27. but wee sinne by not adoring it The rich come indeed to the table they eate and adore but are not filled Sainct Ambrose By the foote stoole vnderstand the earth S. Ambr. l. 3. de sp s c. 12 by the earth the flesh of Christ which yeauen at this day wee 3 adore in the mysteries and which the Apostles did adore in our Lord Iesus Christ Theodoret Theodor. Dial 2. The mysticall signes are vnderstood to be that they are made by consecration vzt the bodie and blood of Christ and they are beleeued and 4 adored as being that they are beleeued to be O most diuine S. Dionys Eccl. Hierarch c. 3. De lib ist autho vide Baron a. 109. Mart. Delr Vindic. Areopagit Gualt Chron. c. 28 secu 1. ver 1 aÌ„d holie Sacrifice open those mysticall and signifying veiles wherewith thou art couered shewe thy selfe cleerely vnto vs and 5 replenish our spirituall eies with thy singular and reueiled brightnes 49. The Protestant Opinion 1 No bodie is worshipped on the Alter the flesh of Christ in the 2 Sacrament is not to be adored It is not to be adored in the 3 Mysteries the Sacrament is 4 not adored there is no bodie in the Eucharist or vnder those signes that can heare or 5 is to be prayed vnto Compare 50. Sixtlie the Fathers say the Bodie of Iesus Christ is heere immolated after aÌ„ vnbloodie maÌ„ner that this vnbloodie Sacrifice offered by the ChristiaÌ„s is in substaÌ„ce the bodie of Christ that it is the host which was offered oÌ„ the Crosse and the price of our redemption which things agree no more to bakers breade then adoration and the rest whereof I haue spoken before but onelie to the true bodie of Iesus Christ S. Ignat. Ep ad Smyr ap Theod. dial 3. S. Chrys or 17. in Ep. Hebr. They the Simonians and Saturnians old Hereticks admit not Eucharists a and Oblations because they do not confesse the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Sauiour which suffered for our sinnes Wee do still offer the same not another now but euer the same and for this reason the Sacrifice is one as being offered in b many places it is one bodie not many bodies Ibid. so allso the sacrifice is one It is our high Priest who hath offered the hoast which doth cleanse vs and wee allso now do offerre the same which was then offerred â—d hom 51. â— Mat. â—o ad pop â—ntioch Cyr. Aâ—â— declar â—nat 11. which cannot be consumed Let vs heare and tremble he Christ hath put himselfe c immolated before vs. wee celebrate in the Church the holie quickning and d vnbloodie Sacrifice beleeuing not that that which is shewed is the bodie of some common man like vs and his blood but wee receaue it rather as the life giuing Words owne flesh and blood â—onc Nic â—ct Vatic â—p de diâ—na mens â—c testim â—oscunt â—colamp â—uin â—quin â—blit â—e Bell. l â—e Sa. â— c. 10. In the diuine table let vs not abase our thoughts to consider the breade and cuppe which is set there vppon but rather erecting our minde and fixing it on high let vs by faith vnderstand that there is present vppon that holie e table the lambe of God that taketh away the sinnes of the world who is offered in Sacrifice by the Priest without slaughtering and wee verilie receauing his bodie and blood let vs beleeue that these things are the pledges of our Saluation and resurrection This hoste doth singularlie preserue the soule from eternall damnation which hoste doth repaire vnto vs by mysterie that death of the onely begotten S. Greg. l. 4 Dial. c. 58. Pro nobis ITERVM in hoc mysterio sacra Oblationis immolatur who rising from the deade now dieth not yet liuing in himselfe immortallie and incorruptiblie he is againe Sacrificed for vs in this mysterie of the holie Oblation Hether appertaines that which S. Augustine writeth of his mother a good Christian woman of the Religion then common that departing out of this world she desired memorie to be made of her at the Altar S. Aug. 9. Confes â—â— 13. from g whence she knewe the holie Sacrifice to be dispenced wherewith the inditement against vs was blotted out Then he commendes her sowle to the praiers of such as reade his Booke Obserue what and where this thing was it was the victime or Sacrifice wherewith the ransome was paid for our sinnes this is not bread I trow and this was on the Altar and therehence dispenced as you heard from S. Augustines mouth And there adored in the mysteries as you heard before Optat. l. 6. Wherevppon wee find the Altar allso called the seate of the body and blood of our Lord. Hether also doth appertaine that which wee finde in Antiquitie about offering sacrifice for the deade which you may reade ar your leisure in others for I haue ben alreadie to long in this 51. The Protestant opinion no Eucharisticall a Oblation is to be admitted it is not the flesh of Christ that suffered for vs. The sacrifice of the bodie of Christ is not offered in b many places Christ is noe more c