excellencie of their calling inferring that those that rule well are worthye of double honour Whereby appeereth that bishops are not onlye needefull in the churches of christians but also most needfull as without whome I can scarcely see how the state of the church could well bee maintained And therefore those that contend that they are not necessarie in a Christian Common wealth shewe them selues either wilfull waiwarde or maliciouslye blinde and striuing to catch their owne shadowes they labour all in vaine giuing manifest demonstration of their more than extreame follie to all the world Theod. Well Let it bee granted as it cannot bee denied that they are moste necessarie yet in this I would verie gladlye bee absolued whether they maye lawfullye vendicate or challenge to themselues superioritie and primacie aboue their fellowe brethren of the ministerie or no for some holde that there ought to bee equalitie in the ministerie and no superioritie at all how say you Amphil. They doe not vendicate or challenge anie superioritie or primacie to themselues ouer their brethren in respect of their common callings and functions for therein the poorest pastor or shepheard that is is coequall with them they themselues will not denie but in respect of dignitie authoritie and honour which the prince and church doth bestowe vpon them So that the superioritie that they haue ouer their brethren resteth in dignitie authoritie and honour which it hath pleased the prince to dignifie them withall aboue their felowe brethren and not in calling function or office for therein they are all coequall togither But if any curious heâ—â—s should demand why the prince should aduance any of the cleargie to such high dignitie authoritie and primacie aboue his brethren I answer as it is in the Gospell Is thine eâ—e euill bicause the prince is good May not the prince giue his gifts his dignities and promotions to whom he will And if the prince of his roiall clemencie be minded to bestowe vpon his subiect any dignity or promotion is it christian avedience to refuse the same Nay is it not extréeme ingratitude towards his prince Besides who seeth not that if there should be no superioritie I meane in dignitie authoritie only the same honorable office or calling would growe into contempt For is it not an old saieng and a true Familiaritas siue aequalitas parit contemptum Familiaritie or coequallitie doth euer bring contempt And therefore take awaye authoritie and honor from the magistrates either temporall or spirituall and ouerthrowe the same altogither If authoritie should not be dignified as well with glorie and externall pompe the better to grace the same to shew forth the maiestie thereof would it not soone grow to be dispised vilipended and naught set by And therefore the more to innoble and set foorth the excellencie of this honorable calling of a bishop hath the prince the churches thought it good to bestow such authoritie dignitie and honor vpon them and not for anie other cause whatsoeuer And therefore seeing it is the pleasure of the prince to bestowe such dignitie authoritie and honor vpon them me thinke any sober christians should easely tolerate the same Theod. Yea but they saie that there â—ught to be no superioritie in the ministerie bringing in the example of the apostles themselues amongst whom was no superiority inequalitie or principallitie at all Amphil. Indeede amongst the apostles there was no superioritie I grant neither in office calling authoritie nor otherwise but al were equall in ech respecte one to another But what than The apostles were sent to preach to the churches and not to gouerne and therefore they choose elders to rule the same but our bishops are as well to gouerne and to rule the churches in some respects as to preach the worde And therfore though there were no superioritie amongst the apostles yet maye there be amongst our bishops in respect of gouerment dignitie and authoritie And wheras they saie there ought to be no superioritie in the ministerie at all I answeare no more there is in respect of euerie ones function forme of calling and office to preach the word and minister the sacraments But in respect of gouernement authoritie dignitie and honor there is superioritie and I am perswaded so ought to be In which opinion vntill they haue disprooued it I meane Christ willing to persiste Theod. But they adde further and say that it strengtheneth the hands of the aduersaries the papists For saie they the papists may as well affirme that christian emperours kings and potentates and euen the churches of God themselues haue giuen to the pope that authoritie that dignitie and honor which he hath or claimeth aboue his fellowe brethren as well as the bishop may say so Besides it confirmeth the opinion of soueraigntie ouer at the churches in the world For say they may not the pope saie that he receiued plenarie power to be head ouer all the world from christian kings emperours and potentates as well as the bishops may say we receiued this power to be superior to our brethren from christian kings and princes Now whether these reasons be a like I would gladly know Amphil. They be verie vnlike and so vnlike as there is no equallitie comparison or semblance betwixt them For first of all let theÌ„ note that the pope nor any of his complices and adherents doe not holde nor pretende to holde no they dare as well eate off their fingers as to say so for then were their state in a wofull case that their archdiuell their god the pope I should say doth receiue his power either of authoritie superioritie primacie souereigntie or head ouer all the world from any earthly creature but immediately from God himselfe But whereas hée sayth that hee receiued his power of superioritie ouer all the worlde from no earthie creature but from God himselfe it is manifest that he receyued it neyther from God for his vsurped power is contrarie to God and to his words in euerie respecte nor from anie christian man but from the Deuill himselfe whose vicegerent or Liefetenant generall in his kingedome of impietie he shewes himselfe to be Than let them note that although hee pretended to holde his vsurped authoritie from man as hee doth not yet is there no man howe mightie an Emperour King Prince or Potentate soeuer that is able proprio iure to giue him authoritie ouer all the worlde without great and manifeste iniurye done to all other Princes as to giue the soueraigntie or chieftie of their Landes from them to a straunger But a Prince may lawfullye bestowe and geue to his subiectes anie prerogatiue title authoritie office function gouernment or superioritie of anie thing within his owne dominions and kingdomes but no further he maye not And therefore this reason of theirs holdeth not that the Pope maye as well arrogate the one to himselfe as the Byshops may the other to themselues Theod. Séeing now it cannot be denied but that
But for that he is not onely a false prophet and a traitor to the truth that teacheth false doctrine but as well he that knoweth the truth and either for feare of death or desire of life wil not expresse the same to the world And for that not onely the author of any euill or mischiefe is giltie of offence before God But also he that might vy discouerie therof preuent the same and yet either will not or for feare of death dares not And for that as the olde prouerbe saith Qui â—acet consentire videtur he that concealeth the truth seemeth to consent to errors for these and the like causes I will laye downe vnto you some such corruptions and abuses as seeme to be inormous and stande in neede of reformation omitting in the meane time to speake perticularly of all for that they be innumerable vntill I see how these fewe will be brouked of them For it is a point of good physicke you knowe to sée how the former meate receiued into the stomacke will be digested and concocted before we receiue anye more into the same Theod. You say very well Giue me leaue then by your patience to aske you such questions as I thinke conuenient for my further instruction that by your good means I knowing the truth may praise God in you and also haue iust occasion to giue you thanks for the same Theod. Aske what you thinke good in Gods â—ame and I will doe the best that I can to resolue you in any thing that you shall demand Theod. Then this shal be my first demand Be the churches congregations assemblies there distincted into particulars as into parishes and precincts one exempt from another or are they dispersed here and there abroad without any order exemption or limitation of place at all Amphil. Euerie particular church congregation assemblie or conuenticle is diuided one from another and distincted into parishes and preâ—incts which seuerall precincts and parishes are so circumâ—ired and limited about with bounds and marks as euerie one is knowne of what parish he is and vnder whose charge he liueth So that euerie shepheard knoweth his flocke euerie pastor his shéepe And againâ— euerie flocke knoweth his shepheard and euerie shéepe his pastor verie orderlie and well in my simple iudgement Theod. Doe you allow then of this partition of churches and of one particular congregation from another Amphil. Yea trulie It is not amisse but a verie good order for thereby euerie pastor doth knowe his owne flocke euery shepheard his owne shéepe which without this diuision could not be Besides that we read that euen in the apostles daies who writ to particular churches themselues as to the Rom. Corint Thes. Phil c. in the daies of Christ in the times of the prophets before Christ churches assemblies and congregations were euer distincted one from another diuided into seueral flocks companies and charges So that although they had not the name of this word parish amongst them yet had the thing ment thereby in effect Theod. Then it followeth by your reason that there are infinite churches in Dnalgne and I haue learned out of the book of God that there is but one true church and faithful spouse of Christ vpon the earth How reconcile you these two places Amphil. Uerie well For although there be infinite particular churches congregations and assemblies in the world yet doe they all make but one true church of God which being diuided in time and place is notwithstanding one church before God being meÌ„bers of the mystical body of Christ Iesus felow members one of another so as they can neuer be diuided neither froÌ„ themselues nor froÌ„ their head Christ. Theod. Who doe you constitute the head of the vniuersall church of Christ vppon earth Christ Iesus the pope or the prince Amphil. Christ Iesus whose the bodie is must néeds â—e is the onely true head of the vniuersall church Then next vnder him euerie christian prince in his kingdom And as for the pope he is head ouer the malignant church the church of the diuel and not of Christ Iesus No he is so far from being head ouer the vniuersal church of Christ that he is no true member of the same but rather the childe of perdition the first borne of satan a diuell incarnate and that man of sin euen Antichrist himselfe that must be destroied with the breath of Gods mouth Theod. By whom be these particular churches and congregatious gouerned and ruled Amphil. By bishops pastors and other inferiour officers Theod. Do you shut out the prince then fâ—ont gouerning the church Amphil. No God forbid For take awayâ— Brachium seculare The lawfull power and gouernement of the temporal magistrate from the regiment of the church and ouerthrow the church altogither And yet notwithstanding the necessitie hereof the dooting anabaptists and brainesicke papists haue most deuilishly denied the same The anabaptists denie most absurdly the authoritie of the magistrate altogither The papists seing themselues conuinced by the manifest worde of GOD denye not their authority absolutely but that their authority extendeth to the gouernement of the church forsooth they vtterly denie hereby exempting themselues and plucking away their neckes from vnder the yooke of christian obedience due vnto migistrates contrarie to the expresse word of our sauiour Christ and his apostles who saith Omnis anima subdita sit potestatibus supereminentibus Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers for there is no power but of God And therefore they are to be obeyed as the ministers of God of all whatsoeuer Theod. Well than I gather thus much that euery king prince or potentate is supreame head next vnder God ouer the church of GOD dispersed through his kingdomes and dominions is not this true Amphil Uerie true And therefore that antichrist of Rome hath plaide the traitor a long while both to Christ Iesus and all christian kings in arrogating and vsurping to be supreame head ouer all the world Whereas indeed he being a greasie priest smered prelate hath no more authority than other oiled shauelings haue nor so much neither and yet that authoritie is but ouer the maligant church of antichrist and not of Christ Iesus I beseech the Lord therefore to breake of that power to grind in peces that stumbling blocke of offence and to wipe off the heads of that monstrous hidra so as neuer any mo may growe thereof againe Theod. Seeing you say that euerie prince is supreame head ouer the church of God within his dominions what authoritie therfore assign you to the prince to execute in the church Amphil. It is the office and dutie of a prince not only to see elected sent forth called good able sufficient pastours for the instruction of the church but also to see that good orders constitutions rites be established and duely performed that the worde be preached the sacraments truely ministred excommunication discipline and
ministerie to giue place to the same Amphil. Yea doubtlesse And therfore the bishops ought to seeke for the learned sort and as it were to sue and make instance to them and finding them worthy as well for their life as doctrine to call them lawfully according to the prescriptâ— Gods word so to sende them forth into the â—â—rds haruest And where the foresaide dumbe ministerie is to displace the same and place the other By this meanes the word of God should flourish ignorance manger the head of satan be abandoned the church edified and manie a one incouraged to go to their bookes whereas now they practise nothing lesse and all by reason that by their learning they haue no promotion nor preferment at all Theod. Do these preaching ministers preach onely in their owne cures flockes and charges or else indifferently abroad else where Amphil. They preach for the most part in their owne charges and cures whereouer the holie Ghost hath made them ouerseers and for which they shall render a dreadfull account at the day of iudgemennt if they doe not their dutie diligently as God hath commanded But though they preach most commonly in their owne cures yet doe they sometimes helpe their felowe brethren to breake the bread of life to their charges also Wherein me thinke they do not amisse For if a watch man appointed by a whole citie or towne to giue warning when the enimie commeth seeing an other citye or towne to be in danger giueth sufficient warning to his owne citie and goeth and warneth the other citie also and so by this meanes deliuereth them both I say that in so doing hée doth well and according to charitie And yet notwithstanding diuers new phangled felows sprong vp of late as the Brownists and there adherents haue spoken verie blasphemouslie hereof teaching in their railing pamphletes that those who are lecturers or preach els wher than in their owne cures are accursed before god Than the which what can be more absurdlie or vntruely spoken For if they grant as they cannot deny that the word of God is good then cannot the declaration of that which is good in one place be hurtfull in another And read we not that the apostles themselues went from place to place preaching the word to euerie congregation Christ Iesus did the same also taught vs that he came not to preach to one citie onely but to many Theod. Doe the reading ministers onely continue and read altogither in their owne charges or not Amphil. The reading ministers after they be hired of the parishes for they are mercenaries they read commonly in their owne charges and cures except which is a horrible abuse that they haue two or three cures to serue all vpon one day and peraduenture two or three myles distant one from another Which maketh them to gallop it ouer as fast as they can and to chop it vp with all possible expedition though none vnderstand them and as fewe be edified by them Theod. Be these reading ministers well prouided for so as they want nothing or not Amphil. No truly For if the other preaching ministers bee not well prouided for as in truth they be not then how can the other be well maintained And therfore they haue som of them ten pound a yeere which is the most some eight pound some sixe pound some fiue pound some foure pound some fortie shillings yea and table themselues also of the same And sometimes failing of this too they runne roging like vagarents vp downe the countries like maisterlesse men to seeke their maintenance Whereby some fall to one mischiefe some to another to the great slander of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and scandall of the godlie And yet part of these reading misters be too well prouided for for some of them haue two or three yea foure or fiue benefices apeece being resident but at one of them at once and peraduenture at neuer a one but roist it out elsewhere purchasing a dispensation for their discontinuance and then may no man say Domine cur ita facis Sir why doe you so For hee hath plenarie power and authoritie granted him so to doe Theod. That is an horrible abuse that one man should haue two or thrée or halfe a dozen benefices apéece as some haue may anie man haue so many liuings at one time by the lawe of God and good conscience Amphil. As it is not lawfull for anie man to haue or enioie two wiues at once so is it not lawfull for any man how excellent soeuer to haue mo benefices mo flockes cures or charges in his handes than one at once Nay I am fullie persuaded that it is more tollerable and yet it is a damnable thing for a man to haue two wiues or mo than for a man to haue two benefices at once or mo For by possibilitie a man might discharge the dutie of a good husband to two or thrée wiues yet to haue mo than one is the breach of Gods commandements but no man though he were as learned as Saint Paule or the apostles themselues to whome were giuen supernaturall and extraordinarie giftes and graces is able sufficientlie to discharge his dutie in the instruction of one church or congregation much lesse of thrée or foure or halfe a dozen as some haue And as one father cannot bee manie fathers one pastor manie pastours nor one man diuerse men so one sheepeheard or pastour cannot nor ought not to haue diners charges and flocks at once Is it possible for any shepheard though he were neuer so cunning a man to kéepe two or thrée flocks or mo at once and so féed them wel and in due season dooing the dutie of a good shepheard in euerie respect they being distant from him ten twentie fortie sixtie an hundred two hundred or thrée hundred miles Much lesse is there any man able to discharge the dutie of a good pastor ouer so manie flockâ— churches and congregations so farre distant in place wheras the simplest flocke that is reâ—â—â—reth a whole and perfect man not a péece of a man Therfore I aduise al benefice mongers y â— haue mo charges then one to take héede to theÌ„selues and to leaue them in time for the blood of al those within their cures or charges that die ghostlie for want of the truth of Gods word preached vnto them shall be powred vpon their their heads at the day of iudgement and be required at their hands Theod. If they haue so many benefices a peece and some so farre distant from another then it is not possible that they can be resident vpon them all at once But the matter is in dispute whether they may not as well be absent or present what is your iudgment of that Amphil. To doubt whether the pastor ought to be resident with his flocke is to doubt whether the soule should be in the bodie the eie in the head or the watchman in his tower For this I am fully
that through the good industrie as well of the one as of the other the churches of GOD may bee instructed and nourished with the worde of GOD to eternall life Then you aske mee whether these lecturers and preachers may receiue wages of the churches to whom they preach with a good conscience whereto I answere that they may But yet I am persuaded that it were much better for them to haue particular flocks of their owne to the end that they receiuing sufficient maintenance of them might if they were at anie time disposed to bestowe any spirituall graces abroad doe it Gratis frankly and freely without any charges to the poore churches of Iesus Christ. Theod. But what if the pastors liuing be not maintaineable nor sufficient for him to liue vpon may hee not take wages of other flocks abroad Amphil. I am persuaded no. For if his liuing be too little then ought the church to mend it but if the church either for want of zeale will not or through extreame pouertie cannot increase his liuing then ought the pastor to content himselfe with that little which God hath sent him following the example of the apostle who biddeth the children of GOD to be content with their wages bee it little or be it much for if they haue meate drinke and cloth it is inough and as much as nature requireth We brought nothing saith he into this world neither shall we carrie any thing out Againe those that will be rich fall into diuers temptations and snares of the diuell which drowne men in perdition and destruction Therefore if it be sâ—fficient to yéelde him meate drinke cloth and other necessaries he is bound to content himselfe with the same Which if he doe for the zeale he beareth to his flocke I doubt not but the Lord will open the harts of his flock towards him and both make them able and willing to support his necessities For if hee deliuer vnto them spirituall things doubtlesse the Lord will moue them to giue vnto him temporall things And therfore ought he to perseuere and in his good time without all peraduenture the Lord will looke vpon him as he hath promised Theod. Doe you allow of that vagarant ministerie which is in manie countries but most specially in Dnalgne sprong vp of late to the discredite of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and offence of the brethren Amphil. Allow of it qouth you No God forbid But I rather deplore it with all my hart knowing that it is most directly against the word of God the example of the primitiue age and all good reformed churches thorough the world Is it not a pitifull case that two hundred thrée hundred fiue hundred a thousand fiue thousand yea possible ten thousand shall be called into the ministerie in one countrie not a quarter of them knowing where to haue any liuing or charge And what do they then Runne stragling and rouing ouer countries from towne to towne from citie to citie from shire to shire and from one place to another till they haue spent al that euer they haue and then the most of them either become beggers or else attempt wicked and vnlawfull meanes to liue by to the great dishonour of God and slander of the word Theod. Me thinke this is a great abuse that so manie or any at all should be called into the ministerie not hauing flocks and charges prouided for them before Amphil. It is a great abuse indéed For if pastor come of Pasco to feed if he be not a shepheard that hath no flock and if he be not a feeder that giueth no sustinance nor a father that hath no childe then are they no shepheards nor no watchmen sent from the Lord that haue neither flocks nor charges to watch ouer For he that is made a shepheard or a minister that hath no particular flocke readie to receiue him is so far from being a lawfull shepheard by reason of his former admission that he is rather made a pastor by the church that hireth him to be their watchman and guide than of him that first called him into that function And therefore woulde I wish that bishops and others to whome it doth Ex officio apperteine to call and admit pastors and teachers in the church of GOD to bee verie carefull héerein and not rashly to lay their handes vpon any before they haue had sufficient triall as well of their life and doctrine as also of the flock and charge where they shal be resident that they go not like maisterlesse hounds vp and downe the countries to the slander of the Gospell Theod. Why Then I perceiue you would haue none called into the ministerie before there be a place void for him is not that your meaning Amphil. That is my meaning indéed Theod. But are you able to prooue your assumption out of the word of God or else I will giue but small credit to you in such matters of controuersie as this is Amphil. I haue not neither doe I meane to speake anie thing vnto you touching these matters but what I am able I trust to prooue by the worde of GOD. And yet I grant Errare possum for Hominis est labi decipi Man may bee deceiued and fall but Hereticus esse nolo Erre I may but heretike I will not be No so soone as I shall be conuinced by the manifest worde of God of any of my former positions or assertions I will willingly subscribe to the truth But being persuaded as I am giue me leaue I beséech you vnder correction to speake what I thinke But now to the purpose In the first chapter of the Actes of the apostles recorded by the Euangelist Saint Luke wee read that Matthias succéeding Iudas the traitour in the administration of the apostleship was not chosen nor elected notwithstanding that the apostles by the reuelation of the spirite of GOD knew that he should fall from the same in the end vntill the place was voide and emptie In the sixt chapter of the Actes of the apostles wee reade also of seuen deacons which were chosen for the dailie ministring to the poore but when I pray you Not before the church destitute of their seruice had néed of them nor before there were places readie to receiue them wherein they might exercise their function and calling Then if the apostles would not choose not so much as deacons which is an office in the church of God farre inferiour to the office of the pastor or preacher before places were void and readie to receiue them much lesse would they or did they choose or call any pastor into the church of God before the church stood in need of him and before there be a place readie to receiue him Besides that we read not thorough the whole euangelicall historie that euer the apostles called any to be pastors and preachers of the word before such time as there were places void for them Common reason me â—â—inke and daily experience
should teach vs this truth sufficiently if we were not wilfully blinded that when any church or congregation is destitute of a pastor it were better to place there one able person than to make two or three hundred or mo vnable fellowes and they for want of liuing to runne stragling the countries ouer without any liuing or maintenance at all being glad of any thing For as the old saieng is Hungrie dogs eate sluttish puddings Theod. What order would you haue obserued in this Amphil. Me thinke this were a verie good order That euerie church or congregation being destitute of a pastor should present to the bishops and others to whom it dooth appertaine one or two three or foure able persons or mo or lesse as they conueniently can whose liues and conuersations they haue had sufficient triall of whose soundnesse in religion integritie of life and godly zeale to the truth they are not ignorant of Then the bishops and others to whom it doth apperteine to examine and trie them thoroughly for their sufficiencie in learning soundnesse in doctrine and dexteritie in teaching and finding them furnished with sufficient gifts for such an honorable calling to admit them to lay their hands vppon them and to send them foorth the chiefest of them to that congregation or church so destitute Which order if it were strictly obserued and kept as it ought to be then should not so manie run abroad in the countries to seeke liuings then should not churches bee pestered with insufficient ministers Then should not the bishops be so deceiued in manie as they be And no maruell For how should the bishop choose but be deceiued in him whom he neuer sawe before whose conuersation he knoweth not whose disposition hee is ignorant of and whose qualities and properties in generall he suspecteth not Whereas if this order were established that euerie church destitute of a pastor should present certeine able men whose conuersation and integritie of life in euerie respect they perfectly knowe for the whole church is not likely to erre in iudging of their conuersations who haue béene either altogither or for the most part conuersant amongst them then as I say should not the bishop be deceiued in any nor yet any church scandalized with the wicked liues of their pastors or rather depastors as they be For now it is thought sufficient for the certeintie of his conuersation if he either haue letters dimissorie from one bishop to another whereas they little or nothing knowe the conuersation of the man or else letters commendatorie from any gentleman or other especially if they be of any reputation If he can get these things he is likely to spéede I warrant him Which thing is scarce well in my iudgement For you knowe one priuate man or two or thrée or foure may peraduerture either write vpon affection or else bee corrupted with bribes or gifts whereas the whole church cannot nor would not Therefore is the other the surer way Theod. How prooue you that the churches that are destitute of a pastor ought to present him whom they would haue admitted to the bishop and not the bishop to intrude vpon the church whom he will Amphil. In the first chapter of the Actes of the apostles before cited we read that after the defection of Iudas the traitour the apostle Peter knowing it necessarie that one shoulde be chosen in his place to giue testimonie and witnesse of the resurrection and ascension of Christ Iesus commanded the church to present one or two or mo as they thought good that hee with his fellowe brethren might confirme and allow them And therevppon saith the text they chose two to wit Matthias and Ioseph surnamed Bersabas And the church hauing presented them they were elected confirmed and allowed of the apostles and elders Also in the foresaide sixt chapter of the Acts of the apostles when the deacons whose office was to make collections for the poore and to sée the same bestowed vpon them without fraud or deceit were to be chosen the text saith that the apostles desired the church to choose foorth seuen men from amongst them of honest report ful of the holie Ghost which they might appoint to that businesse By all which reasons appereth that the church ought to present him or them whom they would haue to be admitted and not that the bishop ought to present to allow or to intrude him vpon the church at his pleasure against the will thereof Theod. Why would you not haue pastors to be thrust vpon the churches whether the churches will or not Amphil. Bicause it is manifest that no church will so willingly receiue nor yet so louingly imbrace him that is intruded vpoÌ„ them against their wils as they will doe him that they like of choose and allow of themselues And if the churches beare not a singular loue fauour good will and affection to their pastor it is vnpossible that they should heare him or learne of him with profit to their soules And if they heare him not Auide sitienter as we say Greedily and thirstily thereby to profit then shal they perish euerlastingly in that the word of God is the ordinarie meane appointed by the diuine maiestie And therefore in conclusion if there be not a mutual amitie loue and affection betwixt the pastor and his flocke and if that the one lâ—ue not the other as themselues it is not to be looked for that either the one shall teach or the other receiue any thing to their soules health but rather the cleane contrarie Theod. I pray you what is your iudgement in this What if a man be once lawfully called into the ministerie may he euer vpon anie occasion whatsoeuer leaue off the same function and applie himselfe to secular affaires Amphil. There is a twofold calling The one a diuine calling immediately from God the other a humane calling immediately from and by man Now he that hath the first diuine calling his conscience suggesting the same vnto him and the spirit of God certifieng his spirit of the certeintie thereof being furnished with gifts and graces necessarie for such a high function and office as God calleth none but he indueth them first with gifts and graces necessarie for their calling and afterwards is lawfully called of man according to the prescript of Gods word hauing a flocke appointed him wherevpon to attend this man may not nor ought not at any hand to giue ouer his calling but to perseuere in the same to the end for that he hath both the diuine and humane callings being furnished with all gifts and graces necessarie in some measure for the discharge of his high function and calling Yet notwithstanding in time of extreame persecution when Gods truth is persecuted and his glorie defaced if he have not wherewithall to maintaine his estate otherwise he may for the time giue himselfe to manuall occupations and corporall exercises in the affaires of the worlde as we sée the apostles
true repentance for his sinnes to fore committed liue for euer in ioye both of body soule whereas if exhortations had not bin he might happily haue died irrepentant or vtterly desperate to his euerlasting destruction for euer Yea it is coÌ„monly seene that those who could neuer be wonne to Christ Iesus all the daies of their life before yet at the last howre they are soone recouered Therefore ought not the pastors to neglecte their duties therein but warely and carefully to watche ouer their flocks night and day without ceasing that wheÌ„ the great shephard of the sheepe commeth he may rewarde them with the immercessible crowne of eternall glory And thus much be it spoken hereof Theod. In whome doth the election of the minister or pastor consist in the church onely or in the bishops Amphil. I tolde you before as I remember that the church might examine the life the conuersation and disposition of him or them whome they would haue to be their pastor and finding the same good to present him or them to the bishops or elders to whome it apperteineth to examine for his sufficiencie in knowledge and dexteritie in teaching and handling the word of God and finding him a man furnished with gifts and graces necessary for such a high vocation to call him lawfullie according to the word of God and so to sende him foorth into the Lords haruest as a faithfull laborer therein Theod. But some are of opinion that the churches themselues of their owne absolute and plenarie power ought to choose their pastor and not bishops Ampil The churches haue no further power in the election of their pastor than as I haue told you that is to iudge of his conuersation integritie of life referring the whole action besides to the bishops and elders For if the churches should elect their minister or pastor of themselues absolutely besides that it would bréed confusion for some would choose one some another some this and some that neuer contenting theÌ„selues with any the church should doe that also which were directly contrarie to the word of God For certeine it is the church hath no absolute power by the word of God to elect their pastor to choose him to cal him orderly in such forme as is appointed in the word obseruing all kinde of rites ceremonies orders belonging thereto Neither was it euer séene that any church did euer practise the same For in the dais of the apostles did the churches any more than choose foorth certeine persons of a tried conuersation presented theÌ„ to the apostles And did not the apostles then whom our bishops now in this action do represent lay their hands vpon them approue them after triall had of their sufficiencie in knowledge and sent them forth into the Lords vineyard The churches laid not their hands vpon them or as some call it consecrated them not nor vsed not any other ceremoniall rite in the election of them as the apostles did But as I grant that the church for som cause and in soâ— respects is not to be excluded froÌ„ a consultatiue voyce as before or from being made priuie at al to the election of their pastor so I denie that the church may absolutely of his owne plenarie power cal their pastor all ceremonies and rites thereto belonging obserued for that is to be don and executed of the bishops elders and not of the churches consisting of lay men and for the most part rude and vnlearned Theod. What say you to a seigniorie or eldership were it not good for the state of the church at this day that y e same were established in euery congregation as it was in y e apostles daies Amphil. The seueral estates and conditions of the apostolicall churches and of ours al circumstances duly considered are diuers and much different one from another and therefore though a seigniorie or eldership then in euerie particular church were necessarie yet now vnder christian princes it is not so néedfull The churches then wanted christian princes and magistrates to gouerne the same and therefore had néed of some others to rule in the church But God be thanked we haue most christian kings priâ—ces and gouernors to rule and gouerne the church therfore we stand in lesse néed of the other And yet notwithstanding I grant that a seigniorie in euery congregation were to be wished if it could be brought to passe yet cannot I perceiue but that it would rather bring confusion than reformation considering the state of the church at this day For in the apostles times when seigniories were ordeined we read not of any shires dioces or precincts where bishops and ecclesiasticall magistrates might exercise their authoritie and gouernement as now they doe and therefore there being neither bishops ecclesiasticall nor ciuill magistrates as we haue now it was necessarie that the seigniories shuld be ordeined But now we hauing al these things stand not in such necessitie of them as the churches in the apostles daies did Besides the institution of elders was but meere ceremoniall and temporall and therefore not to continue alwaies neither ought the necessitie thereof to binde all churches Neither doe I thinke that all churches are bound for euer to one forme of externall gouernement but that euery church may alter and change the same according to the time and present state therof as they shal see the same to make for the glorie of God and the common peace of the church Theod. What say you to deacons Is their office necessarie or not in the church of God at this day Amphil. Their office which was to make collections for the poore to gather the beneuolencies and contributions of euerie one that were disposed to giue and to sée the same bestoed vpon the poore and néedie members of the church is very necessarie and without doubt ought to be continued for euer But yet is not the church tied to their names onely but to their office Which office is executed by honest substantiall men called Churchwardens or the like chosen by the consent of the whole congregation to the same end and purpose who daily gathering the friendlye beneuolencies of the churches bestow or sée the same bestowed vpon the poore and indigent of the same church which was the greatest part of the deacons duties in the apostles daies So that albeit wee haue not the name we yet hold their office in substance and effect Theod. What is your iudgement ought there to be any bishops in the churches of christians Amphil. To doubt whether there ought to be bishops in the churches of chrâ—stians is to doubt of the truth it selfe For is there not mention made of their names dignities functions and callings almost in euery chapter of the new testament in all the epistles of Paule of Peter of Iohn of Iude and of all the rest Besides that did not the apostles themselues constitute and ordeine bishops and elders and doe they not woonderfully commende the
doe it as iudges capitall giuing sentence condemnatorie of life and death it is verie vntrue otherwise than thus to be present at the same to haue a consultatiue exhortatiue or consentatiue voice onely Which vse me thinkes is vâ—rie good and laudable in my iudgement For whereas the temporal magistrates not vnderstanding in euerie point the deapth of Gods lawe if they shoulde doe anie thing either against the same or the lawe of a good conscience they might informe them thereof that all things might bée done to the glorie of God the comforte of the poore members of Christe Iesus and the benefit of the common welth Theodo What fashion of apparell doe the pastors and Ministers weare vsually in their common affaires Amphil. The same fashion that others doe for the most parte but yet decente and comlie obseruing in euerie point a decorum But as others weare their attire some of this colour some of that some of this thinge some of that so they commonly weare all their apparell at least the exteriour part of blacke colour which as you know is a good graue sad and auncient colour And yet notwithstanding herein some of them I speake not of all are muche to bee blamed in that they caÌ„not content themselues with coÌ„mon and vsuall fashions but they must chop and chaunge euerie day with the worlde Yea some of them are as fonde in excogitating deuising and inuenting of new fashions euerie day in wearing the same as the veriest Royster of them all And as they are faultie in this respect so are they herein to be blamed in that they cannot contente themselues with cloth though neuer so excellent but they must weare silkes veluets satans damaskes grograms taffeties and the like I speake not agaynst those that are in authoritie for wearing of these thinges for they both maie and in some respectes ought to weare them for the dignifiyng of their offices and callings which otherwise mighte growe into contempte but against those that bée meane pastours and Ministers that flaunt it out in their saten doblets taffetie doblets silke hosen garded gownes cloakes and the like Alas howe shoulde they rebuke pryde and excesse in others who are as faultye therein as the reste Therefore sayde Cato verye well Quae culpare soles ea tu ne feceris ipse for sayeth he Turpe est doctori cum culpa redarguit ipsum Which is those thinges which thou blamest in others sée that thou thy selfe bee not guiltye in the same for it is a foule blemish and a great shame and discredit when that euyll which thou reprouest in an other is apparent in thy selfe For in so doing a man reprehendeth as well himselfe as others is a hinderance to the course of the Gospell and what he buildeth with one hand he pulleth down with the other Christ Iesus the great pastor of the shéepe was himself conteÌ„ted to go daily in one poore coat beeing knit or wouen all ouer without seeme as the maner of y e Palistinians is to this day This me think was but a simple cote in the eie of the world and yet Christ Iesus thought it pretious inough Samuel was accustomed to walke in an olde gowne girded to him with a thong Elias and Elizeus in a mantell Iohn the baptist in camels haire with a girdle of a skin about his loines The apostle Paule with a poore cloke and the like wherby appeareth how farre a minister of the Gospell ought to be from pride and worldly vanitie obseruing the rules of christian sobrietie as well in apparell as in al things else knowing that he is as a citie set vppon an hill and as a candle set vppon a candlesticke to giue light and shine to al the whole church of God Therfore saith Christ Sic luceat lux vestra coram hominibus c. Let your light so shine before men that they seeing your good works may glorifie your father which is in heauen which God grant we may all doe Theod. Haue they no other kind of apparell different from the common sort of men Amphil. Yes marie haue they They haue other attire more proper and peculiar vnto them in respect of their functions and offices as cap tippet surplesse and the like These they weare not commonly or altogither but in especial when they are occupied in or about the execution of their offices and callings to this eÌ„nd end purpose that there may be a difference betwixte them and the common sorte of people and that the one maie be distincte from the other by this outward note or marke Theodo Is it of necessitie than required that the Pastors and Ministers of the worde should be distincted from other people by anie seuerall kind of attire Amphil. It is not required as of necessitie bnt thought méete and conuenient to bee vsed for a decencie and comlines in the Church of God But notwithstanding the chiefest thyng wherby a pastor or minister oght to be known from the common vulgare sorte of people is the preaching of the word of God the administration of the sacraments the execution of ecclesiastical discipline and other censures of the Church and withall his integritie of lyfe and soundnesse of conuersation in euerie respecte These are the true notes and markes wherby a Minister of the Gospell ought to bee knowen and distincted from the other common sorte of people And yet though these bee the chiefest notes whereby they are distinct from others of the temporaltie and laitie yet are they not the onelie notes or markes for they are knowen and discerned from others also by exteriour habite and attire as namely by cappe tippet surplesse and such like That as the first doth distinguish them from others whilest they are exercised about the same for who is so doltishe that séeing a man preache minister the sacraments execute other ecclesiasticall censures of the church that will not iudge him to bee a Minister of the Gospell so the other notes of apparell the surplesse except may make a difference and distinguishe them from others of the laitie abroad To this end that the reuereÌ„ce which is due to a good pastor or minister of the Gospell may be giuen vnto them For as the Apostle saith those elders that rule well are worthie of double honour Theod. But I haue heard great disputation and reasoning pro contra to and fro that the pastors and ministers of the Gospell ought not to be disseuered from the common sorte of people by anie distincte kinde of apparell but rather by sounding the Lordes voice on high by ministring the sacramentes and the like what say you to the same Amphil. Indéede there are some I confesse that are of that opinion and they bring in the example of Saule enquiring of Samuell for the feers house inferring that the Prophet was not distinct from other common people in his attire for than Saule should easelie haue knowen him by the same And the example of the
damosell that spake to Peter inferring that whereas the mayde sayde Thy speech bewrayeth thee if he had bene distincte from others in attire or outwarde apparell shee would than haue sayd Thy apparel sheweth thee to bee such a fellowe These with the like examples they pretende to prooue that pastors and Ministers are not to bee discerned and knowen from the lay people by anye kinde of apparell But as I will not saie that they are to bee knowen and discerned from others by apparell or habite onelye but rather by the lifting vp of their voices like Trumpetes as saith the Prophet so I wyll not denye the same to bee no note or marke at all to knowe a Pastour or Minister of the Gospell by from others of the temporaltie and laitie And truelye sor my parte I sée no great inconuenience if they bee by a certaine kinde of decente habite commaunded by a Christian Prince known and discerned from others Yet some more curious than wise before they would weare anie distinct kind of apparell from others they haue rather chosen to render vp both lininges goods families and all leauing their flockes to the mouth of the wolues Theod. Is it lawfull for a minister of th◠Gospell to weare a surplesse a tippet or forked cappe and the like kind of attire Amphil. As they are commaunded by the Pope the great Antichrist of the worlde they ought not to weare them but as they be commaunded and inioyned by a Christian Prince they maie weare them without scruple of conscience But if they should repose any religion holinesse or sanctimonie in them as the doting Papists doe than doe they gréeuouslie offende but wearing them as things méere indifferent although it be controuersiall whether they bée things indifferente or not I sée no cause why they maie not vse them Theod. From whence came these garments can you tell from Rome or from whence els Amphil. The most hold that they came first from Rome the poison of all the world most likelie they did so but other some searching the same more narrowlie do hold y t they came not from Rome but rather from Grecia which frō the beginning for the most part hath euer béen contrarie to the Church of Rome But from whence soeuer they came it skilleth not much for béeing mere indifferent they maie be worn or not worne without offence according to the pleasure of the Prince as things which of thēselues bee not euill nor cannot hurte excepte they be abused Theod. Notwithstanding they holde this for a maxime that in as much as they came first from the Papistes and haue of them bene idolatrouslie abused that therefore they are not nor ought not to bee vsed of anie true pastors or Ministers of the Gospell Is this their assumption true or not Amph. It is no good reasō to say such a thing came from the Papistes ergo it is naught For we read that the Deuils confessed Iesus Christ to be the sonne of God doth it follow therefore that the same profession is naughte because a wicked creature vttered the same All thinges are therefore to bee examined whether the abuse consist in the thinges themselues or in others that abuse them Which being found out let the abuses be remoued and the thinges remaine still A wicked man maye speake good wordes doe good works before the world but because they wante the oile of faith to souple them withall they are not good workes before the Lord and maie ordaine a good thing which maie serue to good ends and purposes And because the same hath afterward béene abused shall the thing it selfe therefore be quite saken away No take away the abuse let the thinge remaine still as it maye very well without anie offence except to them quibus omnia dantur scandalo to whom all thinges are offence And further if these presicians would haue all things remoued out of the Church which haue béene abused to Idolatrie than must they pull downe Churches for what hath bene abused more to Idolatrie and superstition pulpits belles and what not Than must they take away the vse of bread and wine not onely from the church but also from the vse of man in this life because y e same was abused to most shame full idolatrie iu béeing dedicate to Ceres and Bacchus twoo stinking Idols of the Gentiles Than must they take away not onely the Epistles and Gospels but also the whole volume of the holy scriptures because the Papistes abused them to idolatrie By all which reasons with infinite the like it manifestly appeareth that manie things which haue beene instituted by Idolaters or by them abused to Idolatrie may be applied to good vses and may serue to good ends y e abuses being takē away Yet wold I not that any thing that hath béen idolatrously abused by the papists should be reteined in the churches of Christians if by any meanes they might be remoued and better put in place Theodo Is the wearing of these garments a thing méere indifferent or not for some hold it is some hold it is not Amph. It is a thing w tout al cōtrouersy mere indifferent for whatsoeuer gods word neither expresly cōmandeth neither directly forbiddeth nor which bindeth not y e conscience of a christian man is a thing mere indifferent to be vsed or not to be vsed as the presēt state of y ◠church time requireth But it is certen that the wearing of this kind of attire is not expresly commanded in the word of God nor directly forbid by the same therfore is mere indifferent and may be vsed or not vsed without burthē of cōscience as y e present state of time shall require And therfore séeing they be things indifferent I wold wish euery wise christiā to tollerate y e same being certen that he is neither better nor worse for wearing or not wearing of them Theod. Being things as you say mere indifferent may any man lawfully refuse y e wearing of thē against the cōmandement of his prince whom next vnder God he ought to obey Amphil. Euery man is bound in conscience before God to obey his prince in all things yea in things directly contrary to true godlines hée is boūd to shew this obediēce but not to cōmit y e euil namely to submit himselfe life lands liuings or els whatsoeuer he hath to y e wil of his Princes rather then to disobeie If this obedience than be due to Princes in matters contrarie to true godlinesse what obedience than is due to thē in matters of small waight of small importaunce and méere triflles as these garments be iudge you He that disobeieth the cōmaundement of his Prince disobeieth the commaundement of God and therfore would God all Ecclesiasticall persons that stande so muche vpon these small pointes that they breake the common vnitie band of charitie in the church of God would nowe at the last quallifie themselues shewe obedience to Princes lawes and fall to
preaching of Christ Iesus truelie that his kingdome might dailie bee increased their consciences discharged and the Church edefied which Christe Iesus hath bought with the shedding of his precious hart bloud Theod. Maie a pastor or a Minister of the Gospell forsake his flocke and refuse his charge for the wearing of a surplesse a cappe tippet or the like as manie hane done of late daies who being inforced to weare these garmentes haue giuen vp their liuings and forsaken all Amphil. Those that for the wearing of these garments being but the inuentions the traditions the rites the ceremonies the ordinances constitutions of man will leaue their flocks and giue ouer their charges not caring what become of the same doe shew themselues to be no true shepheards but such as Christ speaketh of that when they sée the Wolfe comming will flie away leauing their flocke to the slaughter of the gréedie wolfe They giue euident demonstration also that they are not such as the holie Ghost hath made ouerseers ouer their flocke but rather such as being possessed with the spirite of pride and ambition haue intruded them selues to the destruction of their flocke If they were such good shepheards as they ought to be and so louing to their flocke they would rather giue their life for their shéepe if néede required than to runne from them leauing them to the bloodie téeth of the mercilesse wolues Is hee a good shepheard that watcheth dailie vppon his flocke or hee that runnes from them for euerie light trifle I thinke we would count him a verie negligent shepheard And shall wee thinke him a diligent or a good pastor and one that would giue his life for his shéepe as a good pastor should doe that for such trifles wil estrang himselfe from his flocke for euer Therefore I beséech God to giue them grace to looke to their charges and to let the other trifles alone being no part of our saluation or damnation Theod. But they saie they refuse the wearing of these garments because they are offensiue to the godlie a scandall to the weake brethren a hinderaunce to manie in comming to the Gospel an induration to the papists hardning their hearts in hope that their trumperie will once come in again to their singular comfort Amphil. It is an old saying Better a bad excuse than none at all And truly it séemeth they are driuen to the wall and sore graueled that will flie to these simple shifts But whatsoeuer they say or affirme certain it is that offensiue to the godly they cannot be who haue already learned to distinguish betwixt the things abused and the abuses themselues And who know also how to vse things mere indifferent to good ends and purposes And therfore this question thus I shut vp in few words that the wearing of these garmentes béeing commaunded by a Christian Prince is not offensiue or scandalous to anie good Christians and to the other it mattereth not what it be For they are such as the Lorde hath cast off into a reprobate sence and preiudicate opinion abusing all things euen the truth it selfe to their owne destruction for euer excepte they repent which I praye God they maye doe if it bee his blessed will Theodo I pray you why doe they weare white in their surplesses rather than any other colour and why a forked cappe rather than a rounde one for the Papistes if they were the authors of these garmentes haue their misteries their figures their representations in all things Wherfore I desire to know your iudgment herein Amphil. You say the truth for the Papistes haue their misteries in all thinges after their maner Therfore thus they say that white doth signify holines innocency al kind of integrity putting them in mind what they ought to be in this life and representeth vnto them the beatitude the felicitie and happines of the life to come And thys they prooue ab exemplis apparitionum from the example of apparitioÌ„s and visions in that aungels and celestial creatures haue euer appeared in the same colour of white Therefore forsooth they must weare white apparell The cornered cappe say these misterious fellows doth signifie and represent the whole monarchy of the world East West North South the gouernment whereof standeth vpon them as the cappe doth vppon their heades The gowne saye they doth signifie the plenary power which they haue to doe all things And therefore none but the Pope or hée with whome hee dispenceth maie weare the same euerie where bicause none haue plenariam potestatem plenarie power in euerie place but Beelzebub the Pope Yet the Ministers saith he maie weare them in their Churches in their owne iurisdictions ' because therein they haue full power from him Thus foolishlie do they deceiue themselues with vaine shewes shadows and imaginations forged in the mint of their owne braines to the destruction of manie But who is he that because these sottishe Papistes haue and doe gréeuouslie abuse these thinges will therefore haue them cleane remoued If all thinges that haue beene abused should be remooued because of the abuse than should we haue nothing left to the supply of our necessities neither meat drinke nor cloth for our bodies neyther yet which is more y e word of God the spirituall food of our soules nor any thing els almost For what thing is there in y e whole vniuersall world that eyther by one Hereticke or other hath not béene abused Let vs therfore take the abuses away and the things maie well remaine still For may not we christians vse these thinges which the wicked Papists haue abused to good ends vses and purposes I see no reason to the contrarie And therefore in conclusion I beséech the Lorde that wee may all agrée togither in one truth and not to deuide our selues one from another for trisâ—es making schismes ruptures breaches and factions in the church of God where we ought to nourish peace vnitie concord brotherly loue amitie and frendship one amongst an other And seeing we do all agree togither and iump in one truth hauing al one God our father one Lord Iesus Christ our sauiour one holy spirit of adoption one price of redemption one faith one hope one baptisme and one and the same inheritance in the kingdome of heauen Let vs therefore agree togither in these externall shadowes ceremonies and rites For is it not a shame to agree about the marow and to striue about the bone to contend about the karnell to vary about the shell to agree in the truth and to brabble for the shadow Let vs consider that this contention of ours among our selues doth hinder the course of the Gospell from taking such deepe roote in the heartes of the hearers as otherwise it would doe And thus for this time brother Theodorus we will breake off our talke concerning this matter vntill yt please God that we may meete againe Which if it please God we doe I promise you in an other woorke to discourse of the same more at large In the mean time let vs giue our selues to fasiing and prayer most humbly beséeching his excelleÌ„t maiesty to blesse our noble Quéen and to kéepe hir grace as the apple of his eie froÌ„ all hir foes to maintaine his word and gospell amongst vs to plant vnity and concord within our walles to increase our faith to graunt vs true and vnfained repentaunce for our sins and in the end eternall life in the kingdome of heauen thorow y e precious death passion blood-shedding and obedience of Christe Iesus our Lord and onely sauiour to whom with the father and the holy ghost one true and immortal God be al honor praise power empire and dominion throughout all congregations for euermore And thus brother Theodorus I bid you farewell in the Lord till I do sée you againe Theodo And I you also good brother Amphilogus beséeching the Lord that if we méete not vpon earth we maye meete yet in the kingdome of heauen there to rest in perfect felicitie for euer Amphil. The Lord grant it for his mercies sake Amen FINIS LONDON Printed by Roger Ward for William Wright and are to be solde at his shop ioyning to Saint Mildreds Church in the Poultry being the middle shop in the row 1583.