wee must relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and her Pastors There be moe Pastors in the Church then the Pope though he be granted first he is not all There be moe Churches then his Church what hath Pope Vrban one man to doe with Pastors with the Church but that which wee know well enough by Pastors and Church in conclusion you meane the Pope I could interpret Saint Anselme well enough as that if a Controuersie were referred by the Church or an Heresie to be corrected in the Church which touched the case of the Catholicke Church it could not be put ouer more fitly to any one man by the Church representatiue in a Councel then vnto the Pope first Bishop of Christendome of greatest not absolute power amongst Bishops But I know your Saint Anselme well enough This was not his meaning he was partiall post natus not fit to speake in this cause nor amongst the Fathers A great Bishop I grant him He was Archbishop of Canterbury no great Doctor but respectiuely considering the barbarous times in which hee liued farre from being one of the ancient Fathers or their grand-child He liued in the dayes of King Henry the first and was a factionist for Pope Vrban his good Lord and Master So aske my fellow if I be a thiefe your bottle-ale Hostesse where you vse it seemeth to meete in Partridge alley with your gossips is well enough acquainted with these passages and can tell you as much as Saint Anselme could if an Heretick aske her who is Supreame ale-canner on Earth shee will answer no doubt why who but his holinesse In this case I beleeue them both alike as good reason for one as for other Sure yours are no better then those Corkes with which your Hostesse vseth to stop her bottles but agree as you can you and your Hostesse we proceede to the next Proposition III. That Apostolicall traditions and ancient customes of the holy Catholique Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs THis is also contrary to the expresse words of our owne Bibles How wherefore we shal see when we can In the interim thus wee draw on Traditions are of two Sorts in the writings of Antiquity as the word is ambiguous of two significations There are Traditions writteÌ„ improperly so called and there are Traditions vnwritten deliuered from hand to hand The name is sometime applyed to the one and sometime attributed to the other you meane not here Traditions written I know it no more doe we we agree to take it of vnwritten Traditions in opposition vnto Scripture as where Tertullian speaketh in his Book de coronâ militis thus Scripturam nullam invenies Traditio tibi praetenditur euictrix Scripture for this you can finde none the originall came from Tradition Traditions are considered Originally in their Authors Christ the Apostles the Church priuatemen which haue their authority more or lesse answerable to the worth of their Originals Againe they are considered materially in regard of what they treat of what they containe whereof they are of Orders Rights practices opinions in common vse and custome amongst men Traditions instituted by our Sauiour euen in points of beliefe Faith haue Diuine authority as his written word hath Traditions deriued from the Apostles haue equall authority with their Preachings and their writings I approue that processe of the Controuersor The authority of Gods Word is not because it is written but because it commeth from God Traditions of the Church haue such authority as the Church hath all binde and oblige as they were intended and as their extent is For they must be considered not onely from the Author but from the End Some were intended to be Permanent others onely to be transient for a Time onely or else for euer Some vniuersall some onely Partiall for the Catholique or else a priuate Church Such variety and difference is in Traditions which this Hudler confoundeth to deceiue his Nouice with indistinctions Now the question is not whether there be Traditions or haue beene heretofore we doe grant it in euery kinde that either there are or haue beene Traditions of Christ his Apostles the Church priuate men The question is not of what authority they are we grant their authority is from and as the Authors but the question is of their Credit and Extent First whether the pretended Traditions of Christ and his Apostles were indeed so ordained or deriued as they are pretended or rather counterseits and suppositions Proue them true vndoubted and we rise vp vnto them Secondly to what ends they were instituted whether to last and indure euer or for a time whether to supply the defects of Scripture not else sufficient for the end This we denye for it is our Position that the written Word of God without vnwritten Traditions is perfect and absolute and sufficient for the end whereto it was intended To make the man of God absolute in euery good worke Abuse not your selues nor your Proselites here slander not nor belye vs giue vs any Tradition of Christ or his Apostles giue vs good euidence for what you say goe proue it conuincingly to haue come from them by Scripture Fathers consent of Antiquity can you aske any more and we receiue it with both our armes as Gods holy Word and Institution Quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ab Apostolis praecepta benè traduntur quanquam scripta non reperiantur Though I finde it not vpon record in Scripture yet I receiue it as proceeding from the Apostles if the vniuersall Church imbrace it said Saint Augustine and I subscribe vnto it bring vs any such Tradition so accepted so receiued so commended and you shall see wee will reuerence it as much as you or more but if you giue me copper in stead of gold pardon me if I beleeue you not nor receiue it for pay Ecclesiasticall constitutions are moe more certaine of the same authority with the Churches written Lawes which binde generally if made for generall obligation or else particularly if they haue but locall and confined limitation omni modo bind they doe vnto obedience so long in such sort so farre forth as the authors did intend till the same authority disaâ—ow them which gaue vnto them being at the first In the 34. Article to this purpose wee reade of and concerning Ecclesiasticall Traditions It is not necessary that Traditions and ceremonies be in all places one or vtterly like for that at all times they haue beene diuers and may be changed according to diuersities of Countries times and mens manners So that nothing be ordained against Gods word Your Catholique cares be they round or long cannot be offended with this position I thinke Whosoeuer through his priuate iudgement willingly and purposely doth openly breake the Traditions and ceremonies of the Church which be not repugnant vnto the word of God and be ordained and approued by common authoritie ought to be rebuked openly that others may
Traditions Act. 16. 4. this is one Act. 15. 29. To abstaine from bloud and strangled Exempt such dishes specified from such dressing haue with you to Masse to Mr. Mayes as I am inuited by Sir A. P◠peraduenture your selfe 2 Tim. 1. 13. We finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the forme of wholesome words in our Bibles And if this be Traditions vnwritten iudge you good Catholiques and set not so high a price vpon this arrant blunderer then whom a verier Goose neuer handled Goose-quill And so goe see if your leasure will serue Fathers that affirme somewhat not what they should The first you must see if you please is Irenaeus Lib. 3. cap. 4. for he will not trouble your seeing with Clemens Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Polycarpus Egesippus Iustinus Martyr all elder than Irenaeus and vaunted of by his good masters and no doubt as much to poynt as Irenaeus who yet is held to be resolute and irrefrageable in that place Propter quod oportet deuitare quidem illos quae autem sunt Ecclesiae cum summâ diligentia deligere apprehendere veritatis Traditionem For which cause wee must shun and eschew them but with all possible diligence make choyce of the things belonging to the Church and lay hold vpon the Tradition of truth Which Tradition is no other thing but the rule of our faith The holy Scripture nothing vnwritten vncertaine beside much lesse against Scripture This is somewhat in your opinion but that which is the thing intended indeede is this which followeth in Irenaeus Et si quibus de aliquâ modicâ quaestione disceptatio esset nonne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum re liquidum est Thus hee questioneth I answere affirmatiuely yes No doubt we ought for resolution in poynts of doubtfull controuersie relye vpon that decision of the eldest Churches Doe we refuse this triall good Sir Gagger Where you will in what poynt you will I vndertake thus to iustifie the Church of England name you the Controuersie one or moe and maintaine the contrary if you can or dare The question is not with Irenaeus what must be Law but how the Law is to be expounded and interpreted Scripture the Law and Tradition the Interpretation that is the perpetuall praxis of the Church to expound the doubtfull texts of Scripture But Irenaeus proceedeth farther than so it will be said For What if the Apostles had left vs no writing at all Nonne oportet ordinem sequi Traditionis quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias Farther indeede but to no purpose this is vpon supposition If it had been so which is not so nor could be so Secondly it followeth not that because if God had not giuen Israei a Law it is probable hee would haue continued his former course with Abraham Isaac and the Patriarchs therefore when he had giuen them his Law they were still to looke for immediate or Angelicall Reuelations as before No more is it consequent to reason pietie or Irenaeus intent that albeit if no Scripture had beene written onely Tradition must haue beene followed therefore Scripture being written wee should as otherwise addresse our selues vnto Tradition But thirdly wee come home to poynt Shew vs any thing tendred by those Ecclesiae antiquissimae to be belieued and obserued and see if wee respect it not as well and as much as you Till you shew vs such Traditions leaue your prating idlely at randome touching worth and weight and vse and authoritie of Traditions Your Traditions tendred in these dayes are onely in name as Simon Magus was and Simon Peter the same no more of credite than hee of pietie both alike Origen is next to be seene in cap. 6. ad Roman Hee calleth Baptisme of Infants a Tradition and let it be so It is the vniuersall iudgement and most ancient practise of the Catholique Church deduced at least from Scripture if not proued in Scripture as the controuersor himselfe confesseth Be it a Tradition it is more for our aduantage than otherwise For we admit receiue defend and practise it which must needes giue the lye vnto your proposition That according to the Doctrine of the Protestants Apostolicall traditions ancient customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige For the World knoweth your brazen face will blush to deny it wee receiue it practise it are obliged by it S. Damascen may stand by vnlesse you meane to make your friends with him a childe in yeares of yesterdayes birth in respect of those old Heroes of the Primitiue times Not that he saith any thing Lib. 4. cap. 17. more than an other or more effectuall and to purpose but because he is not of that desert or esteeme to be ranked with the Fathers of the Primitiue times being long post natus and a Partian many wayes for which cause I answere him not S. Chrysostome is peremptory and through for Traditions In 2. ad Thessal 2. vers 16. he saith Hence it is plaine and apparant that the Apostles deliuered not all in writing but very many things without booke Thus hee but to what end For no Protestant liuing in his right wits will deny this That the Apostles spake much more then is written And whatsoeuer they spake as Apostles in execution of their Ministery is of equall authority with that which they wrote For inke and paper conferre no authoritie or validity beyond the subiect and author of the writing Therefore the Tradition of the Apostles and of the Church is without all question of good credite and esteeme and so much wee professe Art 34. I graunt it hath displeased some which is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is Tradition which auoweth it seeke no further I see no reason why any should be so displeased therewith For if it be a Tradition of the Catholique Church and such Traditions onely hee meaneth Chrysostome saith there no more than hee may No more than Augustine and Tertullian haue said It is Tradition I goe no further No more will◠in any thing for my part I promise you that is controuerted betwixt you and vs at this day Make that appeare which you propose to haue been a Tradition of the Catholique Church and you and I shall soone agree shake hands and no more adoe Saint Basil you haue kept for the close it seemeth and for the vpshot of all and he indeed is in the place remembred very much for all Traditions vnwritten deriued to the Church from the Apostles I know some Protestants especially of preciser cut doe discredit the Author as a Counterfeit onely vpon Erasmus bare word who sauoured some discongruity which I could neuer finde of stile I am not of that or their minde Others being at a stand because of their owne priuate fancies oppose Saint Basil vnto Saint Basil For my part I beleeue
no such allegation nor will I oppose him vnto himselfe Thirdly some goe to it with downe-right reprehension that he gaue too much vnto Traditions and therein erred which censure and taxation is too surly I like not that the ancient Fathers should so be philipped off and sent away like schoole-boyes with snips that most learned religious and most iudicious Writer saith no more then is iustifiable touching Traditions For thus he The Doctrine of the Church is two wayes deliuered vnto vs First by writing then by Tradition from hand to hand both are of like value vnto piety And this is true if certainly both come from the same Author to the same intent and purpose for writing and speaking doe not vnder or ouer-value a thing In Edicts and Precepts and Proclamations from a Prince some haue his minde his words his hand-writing other his minde and words all his hand others his minde onely and no more being conceiued and penned by a Secretary of State according to directions yet are all the Acts of his Maiesty not of a Seruant or a Subiect To this Basil addeth which some mistake and therefore mislike 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. If wee venture or presume to taxe and reproue vnwritten Customes as not much to be respected wee may vnwittingly and vnwillingly preiudice and that in points of moment and consequence the very Gospell of Christ and bring Preaching to be but a bare name which censure I see no such cause to censure For Saint Basil saith not Take away Tradition and the Gospell is nothing as if the credit and weight and authority of the Gospell were meerely from Tradition but that the Gospell will receiue preiudice thereby Meaning that through Tradition that is the vniuersall consent of the Catholike Church wee are assured that the Gospels of Saint Marke and Saint Luke are diuine and true and that the Gospels of Saint Thomas Saint Bartholmew and others are forged though these were Apostles those but Disciples But 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to what purpose is this for Popish Traditions Is there any of them so commended vnto vs as the Gospell of Saint Luke or Saint Marke is by Tradition Saint Basil saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. that is not some things as you perfidiously relate it but of the Doctrine and Discipline heretofore and yet obserued in the Church part we haue from written instruction and part from the Tradition of the Apostles we haue receiued which hath beene transmitted vnto vs couertly Both which haue the same force vnto piety We admit this saying and professe as much let it be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a perpetuall practice of the Catholique Church of Christ and see what wee will say vnto it Saint Basils first instance in the point is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signe vs with the signe of the Crosse you know wee commend it we practice it we command it we propugne it Euery Baker could haue told you so much that euer had Childe Christened in our Church Aske your acquaintance I make no doubt but you are interessed in some Bakers basket for a toste or a new loafe Bakers and Bottle-ale are so much in your mouth But leaue we you to your Bottle-ale and Baker great Saint Basil that patronizeth you suppose so much your Traditions in his Morals Reg. 12. cap. 2. giueth you this Item remember it well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Wee ought not to follow the Procepts of men so farre as to set by the Commandement of God Hold you here and haue along with you in your Traditions as you will faile here Basil and we leaue to gang alone IIII. That the Church can erre FAst and loose Sir Iugler For why expresse you not plainly what Church you meane when you say that the Church cannot erre or in what things and how far the Church cannot erre Particular and Topicall Churches haue erred such may then and can euen in Fundamentals and so ceased to be any more Churches as those of Galathia Ephesus Philippi Colossae Thessalonica Those vnto whom Saint Iohn sent his Reuelation glorious and goodly in their time but now Cages for vncleane Birds But as touching the Catholique Church take it thus from me The Catholique title includeth two things vniuersality of Time and Place both or vniuersality of Place onely In the former acception take the Church and that Caetus euocatus which hath beene heretofore and which is now make it vp The Apostles their Disciples all their Successors are included And so the Catholique Church hath not did not cannot erre either in Factor Faith Fundamentall or lesse Fundamentall In the second acception according vnto vniuersality of Place The Catholike Church of Christ is twofold Diffusiue or Representatiue in euery part and member in euery place In some speciall parts in one place a generall Councell for the whole or all particulars that make vp the whole The Catholique Church at this day cannot erre in all her parts nor in faciendis matter of fact nor credendis points of beliefe dangerously The Church Representatiue true and lawfull neuer yet erred in Fundamentals and therefore I see no cause but to vouch shee cannot erre in Fundamentals Firmitas enim Fundamenti cui totius Ecclesiae superstruitur altitudo nullâ incumbentis sibi templi mole lassessit Soliditas enim illius fidei quae in Principe Apostolorum est laudata perpetua est Et sicut permanet quod in Christo Petrus credidit ita permanet quod in Petro Christus instituit as well saith Leo Ser. 2. de Assump sua If this be your opinion looke you Let vs see if our Bibles be expresse against this Esay 40. 21. My spirit that is vpon thee and my words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seede saith the Lord from henceforth and for euer In which words if we did defend the Thesis as it is proposed that the Church could erre we might answer this Text doth not perplex vs. For where doe we finde Church or not erre in the Prophet it is but by illation at the most The man bragged of expresse words and can performe no more but consequence And that not necessary For may not it be said This is but a Precept not a Promise as where it was said vnto Iosua and in him vnto the Princes and Rulers of the People The volume of the Law shall not depart from them they shall meditate therein day and night This was an iniunction what they ought to doe not a promise what they should performe or at least but Temporary and Conditionall for they departed from the Law and the Law from them I◠so what assurance of not erring Thirdly Gods promises haue a Condition annexed or implyed euer to be performed by man which if he performe God is bound if hee breake God is free My words
what meane you by them of whom where when vpon what grounds why a rambling logodiarrhe without wit or reason Edicta Principum Decreta Synodorum And iudicia pro tribunali are of large extent of different alotment For against God Equity Truth and Honesty what an idle discourse is it thus to shoote your bolts as boyes doe stones to make Duckes and Drakes vpon the surface of the water to glide smoothly for two or three grasings and then sinke to the bottome without any more adoe Adde quantity to iudgements Decrees Edicts wee shall know what you would say and so answere As for humane wisedome that helpe on our right hand haue you such cause to boast we haue no sense nor reason I thinke you doe not find vs such arrant fooles as vtterly destitute of humane indowments If you doe the better for you You may cary the cause against vs without more adoe Customes we haue many of the better sort not all your anticke fits and gesticulations You haue not all antiquity had you haue many they neuer saw Silly man know you not most customes doe and may vary keepe your owne if you please we are not so wedded to them nor to all ours but vpon reason we haue will and may change by better warrant then you can auoide As for multitude we dare drip Siders with you old and late but these are meere flashes of your Catholike vanity I haue said it often I repeate it in the close that you may remember it the better at least you shall find that is my selfe that will ioyne issue with you when you dare to maintaine the doctrine of the Church of England and oppose the doctrine of the Romish Church by all of these or any of these Antiquitie Custome Multitude humane wisedome Iudgements Decrees Edicts and Councels If I haue not for me in all or euery one as good and better share and interest for my confession theÌ„ you for yours I wil yeeld As for Miracles Visions and such hobgoblin-stuffe I am contented you appropriate to your owne So did the Gentiles brag of the like as Chrysostome obserueth Orat. 1. in Iudai santes pag. 34. Edit Hesheâ— So did the Donatists as S. Augustine reporteth de notis Ecclesiae ca. 19. Their miracles were then as yours now Figmenta mendacium hominum aut portenta fallacium spirituum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a prouerbiall speech in Athenaeus Fooles may be frighted with Hagges and Fairies men of vnderstanding know it is but knauery At Lauretto Sichem Annuntiada or wheresoeuer we haue the like puppet playes amongst our Catholike neighbours Cachinnantibus daemonijs at such iugling tricks for their aduantage And yet take me not so as if I cast off all miracles I admit I admire them that were true for a true end the ratificatiou of Truth vnto the soule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That such as would not yeeld vnto the word preached might yet be conuicted by that miraculous power saith Clemens in his Constituions This was that the world might beleeue but yet since and euer Chrysostome said true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 One faith and beleefe is to be regulated not by miracles but by the Scripture which on good foundation we defend containes all that is Necessary for our saluation You haue done with your Reader and I with you till we meet againe at the next turne till then farewell A list of the seuerall errors imputed to the PROTESTANTS by this Gagger being so many Lyes I. THey maintaine in the first place that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood II. That in matters of Faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word III. That Apostolicall Traditions and ancient Customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs. IIII. That the Church can erre V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to be in a Tongue not vnderstood by all the Assistants VII That Saint Peter was not the first or chiefe among the Apostles and that none was greater or lesse among the twelue VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed IX That a Woman may bee supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist XI That none but God can forgiue or retaine sinnes XII That we must not confesse our sinnes but onely to God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times XIIII That the Actions and Passions of the Saints doe serue for nothing vnto the Church XV. That no man can doe workes of Supererâ—gation XVI That by the fall of Adam we haue all lost our free-will and that it is not in our owne power either to choose good or eâ—ill XVII That it is impossible to keepe the Commandements of GOD though assisted with his Grace and the holy Ghost XVIII That onely Faith iustifieth and that good workes are not absolutely necessary to Saluation XIX That no good workes are meritorious XX. That Faith once had cannot be lost XXI That God by his will and ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall be damned and who saued XXII That euery man ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation and to hold that hee is of the 〈◊〉 her of the praedestinate XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell keeper XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. XXV That we may not pray vnto them XXVI That the Angels cannot helpe us XXVII That no Saint departed hath afterward appeared to any vpon Earth XXVIII That Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth XXIX That they pray not for vs. XXX That we may not pray to them XXXI That the bones or reliques of Saints are not to be kept no vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead XXXII That Creatures cannot be sanctified or made more holy then they are already by their owne Nature XXXIII That Children may bee saued by their Parents faith without Baptisme XXXIV That imposition of hands vpon the people called by Catholikes Confirmation is not necessary nor to be vsed XXXV That the bread of the Supper is but a figure of the body of Christ not his body XXXVI That wee ought to receiue vnder both kindes and that one alone sufficeth not XXXVII That sacramentall vnction is not to bee vsed to the Sicke XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy Orders XXXIX That Priests and other religious persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded on holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good XLI That Iesus Christ descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the Soules of
the Roman Church For Saint Gregory vpon the 6. of Ezechiel said If the vnderstanding of holy scripture were playne to all men it would come in time to bee of no reckoning Where hee giueth a reason of that obscurity that is in it Who yet vpon the 6. of Iob more atfull interpreteth his owne meaning thus Sacra scriptura cibus est in locis obscurioribus quia quasi exponendo frangitur et mandendo glutitur Potus vero est in locis apertioribus quià ita sorbetur sicut invenitur The holy Scripture is Meate in the more obscure places because in the expounding thereof it is broken as it were and in chewing swallowed Drinke it is in the more perspicuous places because it is as easily swallowed downe as it is found Thus the doctrine and beliefe of the Roman Church was sometime Scripture in some places is hard in some places easie Hath that Church now forsaken her former faith if not we differ not for we maintaine the easinesse of holy Scripture no otherwise then Saint Gregory the Pope did This Goose may fit the Gagge for his Ganders mouth the Gospell will soone enough be rid of it II. That in matters of faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word I Know no such tenent exclusiuely I know no such Assertion negatiuely the Church of England hath no such faith as this You set vp a Shawfoule for a marke and shoot your bolt at it your selfe alone In our 11. Article put on your spectacles and see if you can reade it we professe The Church hath authority in controuersies of Faith The written word of God is the Rule of Faith with vs. And hath beene so with all our Fathers of old Vnto the Law and vnto the Prophets was a direction of a perpetuall Morallity and is continued in that of our Sauiour Ioh. 5. Search the Scriptures for in them you hope to haue eternall life A rule absolute in it selfe a rule most sufficient vnto vs for that end entended To make the man of God perfect in euery good worke Sufficiunt sanctae et diuinitus inspiratae scripturae saith Athanasius ad omnem institutionem veritatis Truth is of two sorts amongst men manifest and confessed truth or more obscure and inuolued truth In his quae aperte posita sunt in scripturis inveniâ—ntur illa omnia quae continent fidem moresque viuendi spem scilicet charitatem Plainely deliuered in Scripture are all those poynts which belong vnto Faith and manners Hope and Charity to wit And accordingly I doe know no obscurity vpon these I know none of these controuerted inter partes the Articles of our Creede are confessed on both sides and held plaine enough The controuerted poynts are of a larger and an inferiour alloy of them a man may be ignorant without any danger of his soule at all A man may resolue or oppose this way or that way without perill of perishing for euer Now if a question be moued iuris controuersi in controuerted matters who shall decide and settle the doubt you say The Church and so say I nay so say we You say wee say the Scriptures but without the Church that is each priuate mans opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures euen against the Church No such thing Sir you mistake vs. We say the Church must doe it explaining declaring resoluing the Scriptures as the direction is from God himselfe to purpose Deut. 17. 8. and as your Texts and Fathers doe pretend it and no otherwise And yet the Scripture may well be called iudge As the Law determineth Controuersies betwixt man and man In plaine cases iuris positiui no deciding Iudge or legall proceeding shall neede But such as are iuris ambigui controuersi must be determined by the Court by the Iudge according vnto Law So is it in Scripture according to the Protestants opinion In points of Faith they disclaime not the iudgement of the Church nor yet appeale to Scripture alone vnderstood by themselues without a iudge but referre it vnto the Church And they haue reason for it enough seeing Gods Word and the ancient practise of the Catholike Church that is both Law and Iudge are both for them In the name of the Church of England I will be tried thereby and maintaine it against all Papists liuing Take one for all Cyril of Hierusalem in his fourth Catechisme saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In any poynt concerning the diuine and holy mysteries of our Faith not any the least thing must be tendred without warrant of diuine Scripture And he addeth Belieue mee not that speake and deliuer these things vnto you vnlesse for proofe of them I doe bring plaine and euident demonstration out of diuine Writ Was this man a Protestant or a Papist Those Bibles he had then which we haue now and it seemeth that addressing his owne beliefe and doctrine accordingly varied not in iudgement any whit from vs who make Scripture the rule of our beliefe And in doubtfull poynts that require determination appeale vnto the Catholique Church for iudgement in that Rule This is not contrary to any deduction from much lesse to the expresse words of our owne Bible Matt. 23. 2. The Scribes Pharises sit in Moses Chaire all therfore whatsoeuer they bid you obserue that obserue and doe Therefore c. Doe you finde eyther Faith or Iudgement Pastors or Church expresly named in this text Looke once more and looke back vpon your vndertaking Their refutation by expresse words of their owne bible For words expresse you faile vndertaking more than you can performe an ordinary tricke of Catholike Braggadochioes Let vs see if Consequents will hold the tewghing any better Those that answere the Church and her Pastors in your Thesis are the Scribes Pharises in your proofe who whole and some head and taile be Doctors and Pastors of the Church with you But of the Church of Rome it must be supposed for wee disclaime any Conformation at all with them And doe you suppose that our Sauiour approued them so well as that hee would haue had the Iewes in matters of Faith to relye vpon them and their decisions as Pastors of the Church in points of Faith If this were his meaning what meant he then to giue warning elsewhere Take heede of the leauen of the Pharises that is as the holy Ghost expoundeth it Of their doctrine If the question had bin put Art thou the Christ would he haue sent them vnto the Scribes or Pharises for resolution or aduised the people to belieue on them we finde it not practised the contrary we doe What then is this text in consequence vnto the poynt Surely hee meant no more but this and in that hee will declare himselfe a Protestant Whatsoeuer they bid you obserue out of Moses obserue that is so long as they teach but Scripture they must he heard if there they faile
then heare them not Verba legis proferendo in the opinion of Saint Augustine so long as they speake Law This is not our Heresie but Catholique Doctrine De legis ac Mosis doctrinâ loquitur perindè enim est acsi dicat Omnia quae Lex Moyses vobis dixerint Scribis Pharisaeis recitantibus seruate saith Maldonate no friend nor fauourer of Protestants And after him Barradas another Iesuite in this resolution a very Protestant Hoc est saith he omnia quae legi Dei mandatis non repugnāt Ergo bound in the text with this restriction as you must and it is a plaine Gagge to the Gospel Luke 10. 16. He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and hee that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me Therfore c. You know not what you say All this we constantly beleeue But first I answere this is a text indeede to purpose to vindicate authority to the Church and her Pastors but not expressely which is your vndertaking by necessary consequence and indenied it is but you haue tied your selfe foole as you were vnto expresse words and expresse words are not here extant Secondly perhaps it is not so pat as you imagine because the men intended there and then were of another making fashion and account than euer were any since or before and therefore their priuiledges more peculiar of greater extent insomuch as that all were not to be heard so respectiuely as they were they without Scripture or allegation of Scripture hauing mission immediate from the Sonne himselfe which none euer had but they But thirdly I answere take it with Saint Cyprian Epist 96. and others in a larger extent ad omnes praepositos qui Apostolis vicariâ ordinatione succedunt vnto the Gouernours in the Church who succeede the Apostles in the Churches gouernement by imposition of hands and ordination and goe and answere your selfe out of Saint Bernard thus Be the commandement tendred by God or man as Gods agent it is to be receiued with like reuerence Vbi tamen Deo contraria non praecipit homo As farre as man doth not gain-say the will and commandement of the most high A flat Protestant in his assertion and vpon reason For a Nuntio must goe to his Commission Matth. 16. 19. I will giue vnto thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen whatsoeuer thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen Which text hath no such mention of relying vpon Church or Pastors in matters of faith expressed Nor hitherto perhaps any such meaning Your Compeeres were wont to cry vs downe with this text For Saint Peters iurisdiction ouer all and the Popes vniuersall power in claue potestatis You now waue that power it seemeth and cast aside that key and lay hold vpon that other key of knowledge Shall wee belieue your Puniship or them This cannot be good Catholique vnitie in so fundamentall a poynt of your Faith except for neere alliance betwixt Saint Peter and his Spouse the Church whatsouer is remembred of the one must be likewise true of the other But out with your Table-bookes you that haue them amongst you and Note the man will giue you something worth the noting that is our Sauiour doth not say whomsoeuer but whatsoeuer We take it and note it and meane to make good vse of it inferring thereupon through your owne confession that therefore St. Peter by Christs commission must in case of binding and loosing and executing the power of the Keyes which whether it be all one with binding and losing you are not agreed amongst your selues let whomsoeuer alone for euer and betake himselfe vnto whatsoeuer that is not meddle any more with Kings and Princes with cantoning of their Kingdomes and estates but content himselfe with whatsoeuer matters of fact inferiour matters of Faith and the like decisions at least with Causes and Persons within his owne Verge indeede Causes that is knots and difficulties for Persons are none of that combination So to shake hands with your memorable obseruation Therefore in matters of faith euen by their owne Bible wee must not relye vpon the written word onely but vpon whatsoeuer Saint Peter shall tie or vntie which we in this case are contented to doe and to say with that Councell of which he was a part you say President visum est spiritui sancto nobis the decision of the Catholique Church wee receiue as the dictate of the holy Spirit but be you sure it is the iudgment of the Church for you are good Proficients in equiuocation and present vs the Church vpon no better termes then if you should tender vs a man of straw for a perfect man or a shadow for a substance Indeede to this effect that is to as little purpose as that which went before In cases of controuersies and of doubts in matters of fact or ciuill cognisance which could not be determined by ordinary course of Law in the seuerall Counties as it were or Places of iudicature the Parties plaintife and defendants were to referre it to the Leuits Priests and Iudge in these daies that is to the Church and to the Pope you dreame and let your dreame goe once for truth and they must heare it determine it definitiuely It was capitall to refuse or to appeale Good but yet this commeth not home for they must determine it according vnto Law to which supreamest decision both concurre the Rule of right and determiner of right according to that rule In our construction to our present question the iudgement of the Church according vnto Scripture the selfe-same that the Protestant maintaineth In this text I graunt more is to be seene then in all the rest viz. when the word of the Lord came vnto Agge the Prophet Which thing how it sorteth with the present position I cannot tell speake those that can But the word that then came vnto him was this in the 12. verse Aske the Priests concerning the Lawe And the Priests answered according vnto Law thus and thus And this is resoluing of a doubt by the Priests but the doubt resolued according vnto Law so the written word is relyed vpon Not I my selfe the word onely Quis enim respondet Did euer any man deny that the Church and her Pastors are not to be heard speaking out of or else according vnto Scriptures Shew this and take it else Nihil ad rhombum That of 2 Chron. 19. 8. is all one with Deuter. 17. 8. an exemplification of that rule a practice according vnto that direction there somewhat more For hereby it appeareth that the Precept was not for Tell the Church and heare her Pastors but goe take the ordinary course appointed the iudgement of a standing court mixt of Clergie and of the Laitie as it were our court of high Commission or indeede the Starre-chamber consisting of both robes
Ecclesiasticall and ciuill not any thing to purpose for Church or for her Pastors propounded The last out of 2 Thessal 2. 15. was wont to passe currant for vnwritten verities now it commeth in limping for Church and Pastors resolue where it shall stand and then we will ranke it in degree and desert So I would could I tell where to finde them they walke in tenebris I cannot speake with them by cleare day-light In briefe what they affirme I professe I cannot tell I know many things which they affirme in those remembred bookes and passages but what the man here meaneth I can but guesse at so dissolute and at randome are his quotations as if to name and muster vp some Fathers were enough as I can coniecture so come I to them if I misse I must haue better information hereafter Gregorie Nazianz. in Oratione excusat saith somewhat I resolue of and to some purpose but what I certainely doe not know nor yet which Oration is by him intended For I finde not any vnder that title in Billius whom these men follow vnlesse it be one of his Apologies In the former of which two I finde somewhat that may looke that way this In Ecclesijs constituit vt alij pascantur pareant quibus videlicet id conducit ac cum sermone tum opere ad officium diriguntur alij autem ad Ecclesiae perfectionem Pastores ac magistri sunt qui virtute coniunctioneque ac apud Deum familiaritate vulgo sublimiores sunt rationem animae ad corpus aut mentis ad animam obtinentes A thing reasonable profitable and of absolute necessitie for the being of a Church to haue a distinction of Pastors and People some to teach some to be taught to leade to be led to rule to obey a thing established practised and defended in England no otherwise then was in the Primitiue Church and is in the Church of Rome at this day Vnlesse wee can see more shewed vs in Gregory Nazianzene we haue seene but little vnto any purpose yet and other thing then this I know not Tertullian next to be seene against Heretickes prescribeth the rule of Faith so doe we appealeth to the first institution of the Catholicke Church of Christ in his Apostles and to their Doctrine then taught and deliuered and so doe wee aboue all primerily thereto he descendeth vnto Succession so will we Not any prescription insisted vpon by Tertullian but I embrace it and dare appeale vnto it and stand to the award thereof Ex fide personas approbantes non ex personis fidem Is this that which he would haue with Tertul. out of Chapter 21. What Christ reuealed vnto his Apostles to be preached I will prescribe that it ought to be proued no otherwise then by testimony of those Churches which were first founded by the Apostles in their preaching partly by word of mouth and partly afterward by writing If this be the place of Tertullian meant by the Gagger then Currat a Gods name we accept the Condition and ioyne issue and come on with Tertullian as it insueth Si haec ita sunt If this be so it must needs be that all Doctrine which concordeth with those Apostolicall mother and originall Churches is true as being that selfe-same which the Churches receiued from the Apostles they from Christ Christ from God Whatsoeuer other Doctrine is beside this is false against the truth of the Apostles Christ and God Thus he thus we I desire no other Iudge or better triall ioyne issue when you will or when you dare I accept the Condition for any point controuerted betwixt the Church of England and Rome at this day for 500. yeeres after Christ at least Discipulus magistrum Cyprian commeth next to be seene in his 55. Epistle or as your Authors suggest it Lib. 1. Epist 3. In which Epistle I cou'd pitch vpon places moe then one that happily you may entend for they looke this way but that which is purposed I suppose is this in the second sect Actum est de Episcopatus vigore de Ecclesiae gubernandae sublimi ac divinâ potestate The rather because the Texts of Scripture here cited are by Pamelius the Roman Scholiast there applyed though to no purpose For it is the receiued Doctrine of the Church of England that in the office of a Bishop there should be that vigor as he calleth it and that the Calling it selfe is Diuine and an high calling Nor doth any Papist liuing more respect and approue that saying of Saint Cyprian in the same Epistle Sect. 19. then our Church of England doth Non est ad hoc deponenda Catholicae Ecclesiae dignitas c. The honor and the dignity of the Catholick Church is not to be abased so farre nor the vnspotted maiesty of the Flocke of Christ or Priestlike power and authority to be so deiected that men consisting out of the Church should dare professe they will passe censure vpon a Bishop of the Church That Heretickes should presume to censure Christians wounded men iudge the sound lapsed men those that neuer fell guilty persons iudge the Iudge Impious Sacrilegists the Priests This you approue so doe we To what end doe you will vs see Saint Cyprian Or Saint Augustine against Cresconius the Donatist if yet wee could tell where in speciall and what to see is this that which you meane Cap. 33. We vphold the truth of Scripture when we doe that which the vniversall Church commandeth recommended by authority of the Scriptures so farre as that because the Scripture cannot deceiue a man that would not willingly erre in this question obscure should goe and enquire what the Church saith of it If this be the place as in all likelihood it is we subscribe vnto it with all our hearts For in Diuinity Questions Controuersi Iuris there must bee a Iudge to determine that wee say is the Church whether part contending hath Law right that is consent of Scripture vpon his side and we professe with the same Saint August in his 118. Disputare contra id quod vniuersa Ecclesià sentit insolentissimae est insaniae A most in solent franticke foole were he that would dispute against the tenent of the vniuersall Church Sir bring vs to the triall and gagge vs if you can with this resolution of Saint Augustine belye vs not for our opinions against your knowledge But all this while wee haue seene in the Fathers what wee could finde or imagine yet wee neuer saw cleerely till the close Drinke was your arrand but draffe would you haue your plea hath beene for the Church and Pastors your intent was meerely for the Pope for so Saint Anselme Lib. de Incarnat cap. 1. written vnto Pope Vrban saith vnto him Vnto no other is more rightly referred to be corrected whatsoeuer ariseth in the Church against the Catholicke Faith What is this saying of S. Anselme vnto vs in matters of faith
shall not depart is Gods promise Mans promise reciprocall is I will not depart from them If I depart that is if man faile They may and shall depart God is then free Now this supposed what assurance is there for my words shall not depart c So your first Text is mistaken peraduenture in the meaning but without peraduenture in the allegation It is Esay 5â— 21. not as you tender it from your aduisers 49. 21. And lastly it is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Iewes in particular conuerted vnto Christ as it seemeth by Saint Paul Rom. 11. 26. and not of the Church of the Christians already conuerted and so you misapply as well as mistake But more ridiculously in your second Text Iohn 14. 16. For haue you read or heard that euer any Protestant maintained That the holy Ghost can erre I suppose not I beleeue you are not so much past shame to say so and yet your conclusion is so The spirit of truth cannot erre For hauing recited the Text of the Gospell your illation is Therefore the spirit of truth hath aboade for euer and shall abide for euer with the Church and consequently cannot erre What Sir cannot erre To my vnderstanding The Spirit of Truth cannot erre can you vnderstand it otherwise But let your barbarismes goe by to the point I answer first you faile and that confessedly in your vndertakings It is but consequently the Church cannot erre therefore confessed not expresly Secondly I answer out of the Text it selfe This promise is for comfort not instruction The Comforter shall abide for euer for Christ there spake of affliction which should ensue Thirdly were it punctually for direction we might reioyne It was a temporary promise a personall priuiledge to the Apostles you thought wee would say so belike supposing wee had no other shift silly men like your selfe therefore you come in with by way of preuention But the Apostles themselues could not abide for euer poore foole that knowest not there is duplex aeternum frequent in Scripture Gods euer and mans euer That for euerlasting as God is This for the terme of his being so for euer is thus no more then while you are all the dayes of your life But we seeke no aduantage we will not take it we grant Gods Spirit eternally assistant to the Catholique Church then represented in the Apostles and therefore we admit that you belye vs in your Proposition The Church can erre to be vnderstood of the Catholique Church as is expressed The third Text in order Esay 35. 8. is so farre from expressing the not erring of the Church that it is a question though such a Nouice as you know it not whether it be to be taken of the Church at all Hierome in his Comments expoundeth it of Christ who saith of himselfe Iohn 14. I am the way the truth the life An high way shall be there and a way and it shall be called the way of holinesse the vncleane shall not passe ouer it but it shall be for those The way faring men though fooles shall not erre therein Who told you that this way was the Church why not the Scripture which is also a way and called a way as to my remembrance the Church is not Ibi erit semita via mundissima quae sancta vocabitur c. There shall be a path saith Hierome and a most cleane way which shall be called Holy and which saith of himselfe I am the way by which way the polluted cannot passe where also we reade it spoken in the Psalme Blessed are the vndefiled in the way And this way that is our God shall be vnto vs so direct so plaine so open and champion that no wandring shall be there Fooles and silly men may walke therein vnto whom in the Prouerbs wisdome speaketh thus If there be any little ones let them come vnto me and shee hath spoken vnto the Fooles Come you and eate of my bread Thus Hierome vpon the place Tertullian in 4. against Marcion is indifferent for Christ the head of the Church or Faith in Christ the life of the Church Your Worship Sir Gagger out of your authoritie cast it meerely vpon the Church Satis pro Imperio if you can out-beare it Howsoeuer it is not expresse as it should be Not to purpose if it were expresse our question is not whether fooles can erre but whether the Church can erre The Church hath often beene compared to a Ship and now at last by you made a Ship of Fooles Content so you be Pilot in that Ship Sir Foole. Once at length you rightly bid vs goe see more For the Text of Iohn 16. 13. is more expresse than all the former He shall leade you into all truth But what if this text concerne not truth vpon Earth but Truth in Heauen What becommeth then of your Not erring Augustine and Bede encline that way What if it be personall vnto the Apostles alone not to the Church or their successours Hee will shew you the things to come and I haue many things to say vnto you but you cannot beare them now these such like passages doe more than seeme to conclude it vnto them What if he meant but All things that were necessary and conuenient for them to know so Theophylact Euthymius and others In this sort the Church is eternally directed so the Church directed cannot erre Matth. 18. 17. It is commaunded by authoritie Tell the Church and heare the Church No good proofe the Church cannot erre For the Scribes and Pharises were to be heard and obeyed yet had no assurance of infallibility Kings and Princes are to be obeyed yet haue they fallen into great enormities Ephes 5. 27. the Church is said to be glorious without spot or wrinckle or blame which is to be vnderstood de toâ—o integrato of the parts in Heauen and earth Of the time to come rather than present Without blame yet not without wrinckle euen here for error may be where blame is none Esay 9. 7. the Kingdome of Christ is to be established with iudgement and with iustice for euer and yet I know no such priuiledge annexed to iudgement or iustice of infallibility No more then Ezech. 37. 26. to a Couenant of peace an Euerlasting couenant to multiplying of them or placing Gods Sanctuary amongst them for euer Luk. 22. 32. and Matth. 23. 3. What correspondency haue they one with another not to speake of reference vnto the poynt In the former Peters faith was prayed for that it might not faile and yet Peter denied Christ Iesus If Peter were not the Church what maketh this Text amongst the rabbâ—e If Peter were the Church may erre as Peter fayled though not eternally one or other In the latter the Pharises must be heard And therefore will you say they erred not If they erred as doubtlesse they did then to what purpose are they pretended for not erring of the Church Much good may the
Pharises doe your Church 1 Pet. 2. 9. The Church is styled a chosen generation a royall Priesthood an holy nation a peculiar people glorious titles but nothing to this They cannot erre Iohn 17. 17. Gods word is truth I graunt But is Gods Word euer in the mouth of man The Apostles were sanctified and that in Gods truth according vnto Christs Prayer Yet after this Prayer Peter went not right when Saint Paul reproued him he fell and that foulely in denying Christ That which is sanctified is accepted not euer so sanctified as without spot As for 1 Cor. 11. 25. if the Institution or rather Commemoration of the institution of the holy Communion be a proofe sufficient that the Church cannot erre wee yeeld the cause if nothing to purpose what meant this idle pate to range it heere What the man would say in Psalm 101. 23. 20. or whether hee would send vs after mistaking there I cannot tell and till then I cannot answere For not so much as neere thereabout is ought to purpose of not erring Ephes 2. 20. Wee reade that they were built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets And what then Could they not erre Dare you say so They could for they haue and are shaken off from that foundation but so long as they stood on fast they erred not holding one Faith one Lord one Baptisme Eph. 4. 5. which if you and we doe at this day by your owne argument auoid it if you can we erre not As for one heart and one soule of the belieuers Act. 4. 32. it is in reference of loue one to another not in vnity of Doctrine all with one another And yet there were differences in that vnion for example sake inter Paul and Barnabas and might be disproportion in their Doctrine as dissimilitude in the habitude and condition of those sheepe in one sheepe-fold vnder one Shepheard and yet all heare the Shepheards voyce Iohn 10. 16. and hee that will not heare some of those Sheepe Luc. 10. 16. be taxed for not regarding the Shepheard when as yet for all that some of those Sheepe be gone astray To conclude The Church cannot erre neither collectiue nor representatiue Thus your Masters distinguish the termes of this question that goe workman-like and not like you clutteringly to worke So they so wee In the largest extent not erre at all Secondly not erre in poynts of Faith For in matters of fact they confesse errour Faith is fundamentall or accessory There none is here error may accrew Fathers to be seene you afford vs none Not because there are none but because your reading could supply none Who take vp all vpon retaile and credit hauing so small store at home The Church cannot erre is most true and the Church may erre is as true each part considered as it ought V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible IT may be some priuate opinions haue runne vpon inuifibility of the Church which are no doctrinall decisions nor to be imputed vnto the resolued Doctrine of the Protestants that are of another minde Nunquam est quod nusquam videtur That which cannot be seene if it be seeable is no where at all nor in being For as Saint Augustine well said Quo modo confidimus ex diuinis liter is accepisse nos Christum manifestum si non accepimus Ecclesiam manifestam How is it possible wee should hope to haue Christ manifest in Scripture except wee haue likewise the Church manifest Therefore on all hands it is resolued the Church hath euer beene visible since there was a Church In England especially how can this fellow impute inuisibility to vs who claime and proue a succession and therefore needes a visibilitie from the time of the Apostles If any doe thinke otherwise or cannot doe this we vndertake no patronage at all of them The Church is a City seated on a Hill which is naturally visible though in a fogge or mist not discerned There euer was and will be a Church vnto whom complaints may be made though the Church doth not euer heare complaints Those that haue fell vpon an inuisibility may perhaps be tollerated if well interpreted and vnderstood For euen the visible Church in her more noble parts may be said to be inuisible First the Saints triumphant and now regnant with Christ are parts of the Church in largest extent Who being in Heauen are vnknowne their persons proprieties and indowments The Saints militant her more excellent parts on Earth according to her more royall indowments the Elect according vnto purpose of Grace are knowne onely vnto God alone the searcher of secrets and decipherer of thoughts Such as be secret occultò intus are there not visible vnto man In this sence in regard of these parts the Church is and is esteemed inuisible and so held euen of the Papists themselues Otherwise then so wee doe not speake of inuisibility So that the man must fall foule with his owne part or be at warre with his owne wits Moderate men on both sides confesse this controuersie may cease Et quamuis praesens haec Ecclesia Romana non parum in morum disciplinae integritate adde etiam in doctrinae sinceritate ab antiquâ illâ vnde orta deriuata est discesserit tamen eodem fundamento doctrinae sacramentorum à Deo institutorum firma semper constitit communionem cum antiquâ illâ indubitatâ Christi Ecclesiâ agnoscit colit Quare alia diuersa ab illâ esse non potest tametsi multis in rebus dissimulis sit Manet enim Christi Ecclesia sponsa quamuis multis erroribus vitijs sponsum suum irritauerit quamdiu à Christo suo sponso non repudietur tametsi multis fâ—agellis ab ipso castigetur As for our Gagger hee is interessed happely otherwise In standeth him in hand to vphold and foment a faction lest for insufficiency otherwise hee turne Host and sell Bottle-Ale That mustie obiection as hee calleth it of Elias may doe him some pleasure at that time I adde no more touching this proposition because it is but lost labour VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publique seruice of the Church to be in a tongue not vnderstood of all the Assistants NO doubt Contrary to our owne Bibles in such sort that if the Protestants be not gagged now their mouthes are wider than Gargantuaes and their lips somewhat like to Germans that were nine mile asunder Certes neuer so foyled by texts of Scripture since Luther went out to this day Therefore expedite tabulas Chrysippei sophi For heere you haue a singular piece of worke indeede The Church of England directed not onely by the light of Israel the Word of God but also perswaded by common sense and reason hath and hath had her Seruice the publique prayers and Liturgie of the Church in a knowne tongue vnderstood of all that are present there ordinarily This is contrary to their
nature of his greatnesse Hic Rhodus hic saltus This is that you should haue expressed out of our Bibles or the Fathers In setting out his greatnesse otherwise you doe but trifle Haue it hee must first and then practise it Happely the execution will bound it out Let vs see how farre Luke 22. 32. And when thou art conuerted strengthen thy Brethren You reade you say confirme In good time reade so still Strengthen and confirme no great ods in either if it be shewed what his greatnesse was and yet strengthen is more than to confirme the Originall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to stay and hold vp from falling to the purpose and present case of Peter who was to fall and foulely in denying Christ Strengthen or confirme must needes imply execution of greatnesse for to confirme and strengthen what is it but to practise and execute his greatnesse ouer them A poore practise and sorry greatnesse not of soueraigntie to which you driue but of superintendency at most in his Pastorall charge to plant and to water to doe no more It is true He that doth strengthen and confirme is greater than hee that is confirmed but in that act onely of confirming not in vniuersall iurisdiction I hope Your ghostly Father if you were a Potentate and at poynt to dye as his duetie is and office confirmeth you in your Faith Because hee confirmeth you and in that hee confirmeth you hee is your better will you take him for your Lord and Soueraigne therefore Paul strengthened Peter when he went not aright to the Gospel What was then become of Peters headship can your sheepes-head tell To confirme in faith requireth nor implyeth no supremacy in power No other confirmation is intended there Goe cast your Cap then at Peters Primacy from confirming his Brethren See more proofe of your folly Mark 3. 16. Where Saint Peter in the list of the Apostles is onely named first which doth not necessarily inferre hee was the chiefe but wee graunt him a chiefe a prime a first place Wee acknowledge him the greatest amongst the Apostles in many respects And what of this No more but this First you belye vs in your position Secondly you cannot claime your Popes Monarchie from any greatnesse that Saint Peter had Act. 1. 1◠not the 13. Hee speaketh first proposeth a case Will Pope Vrban be contented to doe no more will he callenge no other royalty take it vse it let him goe as farre as euer Saint Peter went as a Bishop and not as an Apostle and wee will goe along with him Therefore in conclusion your texts of Scripture are not to any purpose at all to proue Peters Primacy but you a poppet Much lesse your Fathers see them who list for I haue seene them more times than I haue fingers and toes and could neuer see any such regality in them Theophilact calleth him Prince of the Disciples and so doe I as Aristotle Prince of the Phylosophers and Virgil Prince of Poets who had no commaund for al that either ouer Poets or Phylosophers Eusebius in his Chronicle calleth Saint Peter the first Bishop of Christians Admit hee doe What then First is in respect of time of place order and authoritie Eusebius expresseth not how he meaneth first nay doth hee call him first at all in any sense In my Eusebius I finde no such matter What is in yours I cannot tell I reade but this Petrus Apostolus cum primus Antiochenam Ecclesiam fundasset Romam mittitur vbi Euangelium praedicans xxv annis eiusdem vrbis Episcopus perseuerat Where Romam mittitur is not much for his greatnesse or that principality you giue vnto him and preaching the Gospell is lesse than that Cyril of Hierusalem calleth him Prince and most excellent of the Apostles I adde the Greeke Text is more for your aduantage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He that standeth before and is head ouer the Apostles And againe in his xi Catech which belike you neuer read no more I guesse did you the other but tooke it vp on credit by reta 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Peter Prince as you call him of the Apostles a principall Preacher of the Church Titles of honour Quis negat of great honour I adde such as neuer was any like vnto it but honour and aduancement as it is confined so is it designed how farre whereto in what sense He stood first in ranke hee was chiefe among so was Ioab ouer 30. but not King vpon them or Lord ouer them There is an headship which will not reach that illimited power giuen to the Pope Our Lord Vice-God vpon earth Saint Chrysostome hom 55. in Math. neither calleth him Pastor nor head of the Church Some well-willer of the cause added the words In Greeke wee haue but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a man that was a Fisher But admit both Pastor and Caput too what is it to purpose Wee deny no titles giuen vnto him wee deny your inferences vpon those titles If you will thanke me for it I will helpe you to tenne times as many moe titles as you haue collected as transcendant as any of these and when I haue done to as large and ample giuen to Saint Paul Doe you shew mee but one place of any one Father that giueth him that power you challenge to the Pope I except not Leo nor yet Gregorie and I will subscribe viz. for vniuersalitie of iurisdiction infallibilitie of iudgement and power direct or indirect ouer Kings and Kingdomes This is your Helena First chiefe great or greatest will not content you nor satisfie ambition now in the russe Vndertake this trifle not out the time in pleading so idlely and vainely for Saint Peters prerogatiues which wee the Church of England deny not VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed ANd yet Saint Peter denied Christ Dare you deny that Belike in your opinion and new diuinitie a man may deny Christ and his faith not fayle Turne Turke and his faith not faile onely turne Protestant and his faith faileth But wee must hold it howsoeuer for it is contrary to our owne Bible Luke 22. 3. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Your Proselites may know you are an Empostor That propose it in these words so opposite to Scripture and euent That leaue it so suspence without distinction Saint Peters faith fayled after this very prayer and assurance and yet Christ obtained what hee did pray for God heard him euer how can you reconcile this Your Masters consider Saint Peter two wayes euen in this prayer made by our Sauiour for him as a priuate man as a publique person or as they loue to speake Head of the Church As a priuate person Christ did pray for him that though his faith fell totally for a time it yet might not faile eternally and for euer as Iudas failed and fell and hee was heard in that he prayed for Peter denied but repented hee
we goe see in Irenaeus Or in Tertullian who in his Booke de poenitentia I must supply the Chapter you had forgot it or else could not tell it Cap. 4. blameth some that through bashfulnesse would not confesse but where or to whom he telleth not Happily he meant it of Confession vnto God For almost instantly before he hath these words Quâ delictum nostrum Domino confitemur To God notto man and Delictum the sinne that lyeth close that presseth downe that disquieteth vs in Conscience not Delicta our sinnes by enumeration But passe it for priuate Confession to a Priest Tertullian vrgeth it no farther then for conueniency and draweth it vp no higher then Delictum Euery way conspiring with the Protestants who mislike not Confession nay approue it vnto men who condemne not Absolution but approue it enioyne it though not with that rigour as Romanists doe and approue Saint Ambrose counsell well Confesse freely vnto the Priest the hidden secrets of thy soule If yet it be the counsell of Saint Ambrose For Plagiary as you be did you not here mistake your Authour and Father that ignorantly vpon Saint Ambrose which Bellarmine telleth you was the aduise of Gregory Nyssen Orat in mulierem peccatricem Such grosse Bayardismes in so insolent a Bard are intollerable Saint Ambrose hath no such Booke de muliere peccatrice 2 de paenitent 6. He exhorteth to repentance but not a word of Confession vnto a Priest many confessing vnto God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times IN the Apostles times no nor yet many hundreds of yeeres since their times Such Pardons as commence in the Apostolicall Chauncery such as Tecelius dispersed in Germany others in other Countries are impious irreligious prophane and sacrilegious coosnage an imposture of Merchants that trade for the Diuell that chaffer Heauen and happinesse for the reward of iniquity The first mouing cause of Luthers rising vp and taking Armes against the Church of Rome Bellarmine and Baronius those grand Dictators and vndertakers for the Papacy faile in proofes of this nouelty and what can such a puny as this fellow performe Yet let vs see his best endeauours and fairest shewes because with Catholikes euery Pismire is a Potentate as euery Goose a Swan Contrary no doubt to our own Bibles we denie them For 2 Cor. 2. 10. S. Paul remembreth them thus To whom you forgiue any thing I forgiue also c. You must know that are to learne The Corinthian that had married his Fathers wife was for his incest Excommunicated and put to penance by the Apostle as appeareth 1 Cor. 5. 3. Well what when why here he giueth order for his Pardon This is not denied vpon any hand The Protestants beleeue the Scriptures more then Papists will doe Why but these two places compared are a plaine proofe of the Apostles power of punishing and of pardoning They are it is granted Therefore Pardons were in vse in the Apostles time Is any Asse so ignorant as to say nay Long before the Apostles time they were in vse Long before Moses or Abrahams daies Can a man with patience here this Animall thus bray I suppose there is no Roman Catholique beside himselfe so sencelesse as to imagine Protestants beleeue or teach That no offender was pardoned in the Apostles times That the Apostles had no power or wanted will to accept any Contrite and Penitent into the Church Ingenuous Romane Catholikes can you brooke the wittall thus to babble Pardons were in vse then after before but Pardons no more like the Pardons hee meaneth or should maintaine then Simon the Sorcerer was to Simon the Tanner or Stephen the Deacon to Stephen Gardiner or this goose gagger vnto an honest man 2 Cor. 2. 6. In the same case vpon the same person the Apostle saith Sufficient to such a ma 〈…〉 his punishment And therefore he forgaue what remained of his punishment not yet fulfilled So that there passed an Indulgence for his farther durance There did no doubt We willingly yeeld it and take it for a warrant against Nouatian Puritanisme for a ground vnto the Discipline of the Church whose practice in Discipline is established Art 33. It is in the hands of the spirituall Magistrates to measure the time of such punishment or penance imposed Let your Pardons be no otherwise and we quarrell them not Let them stay vpon the liuing in foro fori and not meddle with pardoning the dead for money nor yet coosen the liuing by false Coynes out of the supposed Treasures of the Church and no opposition will be vnto Pardons granted no though sold in externall Courts abroad For the faults of men shall not be imputed vnto the Discipline by vs if that were rectified as it ought to be But the man is conscious to the foulenesse of his Cause and prophane Roman marting and therefore attireth a prostituted Strumpet in the habit of a graue Matron Popish pardons and Indulgences so prophane and enormious are passed vnder the names of those things with which they haue no more affinity then in name which the Prince of the Apostles of the Lambe had with the first begotten of the Diuell Pardons and Pardons Simon and Simon homonym 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 s. For the Doctrine and Practice of the Church for Repentance in Excommunication Contrition Confession Satisfaction Restitution Absolution is according vnto Piety and the rule of Faith in those that haue sinned and are restored but in the Church of Rome thus it goeth They imagine a treasure in the Church compounded together out of the satisfactions of Christ and his Saints which Treasure so composed is in the hands say they of the Pope and other Prelates vnder locke and key safe enough from purloining to be disposed and dispenced as they shall thinke good to whom they will open and communicate it more or lesse which is euer Danti for Giff-gaff is a good fellow to none else and answerable to his purchase much or little Plus or minus danti as his meanes are For in euery good worke there is Merit and Satisfaction Merit is Personall not Transitiue nor yet Communicable but Satisfaction is and may be imparted Because Satisfaction is onely for a Temporary paine which is often more and greater then Iustice or right for the offence exacteth So that God in Iustice requiring but Proportion the ouer-plus in remainder is laide vp in store against time of neede and drawen forth for vse when mens purses are flush then not till then to be soueraignly applyed vnto the purchaser not payer This premised to your Scriptures and ancient Fathers Find you any such Pardon in Saint Paul foreprised or Indulgence imparted vpon those termes The Corinthian was restored without a Bul a Bishops Seale a Commissaries direction vnto the Parson He payed no rate nor fees for Restitution or standing rectus in Curiâ No Treasure of the Church was applyed vnto him Vpon his hearty repentance and
of these Holy Saints of God For shame speake truth and shame the Deuill the Father of lyes and such lying Libellers as our Gagger But belike it is for nothing which is not for your purpose And therefore whatsoeuer Protestants doe thinke and teach and esteeme of the life and actions the death and Passions of those holy Saints of Christ it is nothing because that they build not vp thence a Magazin nor store-house for the Church nor supply other mens defects by their superfluities that the Holy Father may thereby mugle men and fill his 〈◊〉 coffers by lifting law A thing so improbable for that fained treasury that as Bellarmine confesseth some of the Schoolemen as Maironis and Durand haue not approued it Which they durst not haue done had Saint Paul beene of that minde and tendred that Doctrine Colos 1. 24. I reioyce in my sufferings for you and fill vp that which is behinde you reade wanting and reade so if you list of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his bodies sake which is the Church Whence if you say true the ground of Indulgences hath euer beene And you meane since there were Indulgences heard off For the time was in the Protestants opinion at least that no such thing was in being which yet I maruaile much it so should be and that many writing of that argument haue not so much as dreamed thereof and many no Protestants expound it otherwise Osorius a Iesuite in his Sermons saith Quid deest passioni Christi nisi vt nos similia patiamur What can be wanting to the suffering of Christ but onely this that wee in like sort suffer with him Paul suffered much indured much yet was hee not perfect if himselfe say true and for the Church of Christ to giue them example to strengthen and confirme them in what they had receiued from him filled vp the measure appointed for him in conformitie to the sufferings of Christ Iesus Barradas another of that same Society Tom. 3. vpon the Gospels Quod ad sufficientiam attinet nihil deerat passioni Cruci Christi The Crosse and sufferings of Christ were all sufficiency and that way naught wanted vnto his passion Vt tamen efficax esâ—et Crux app 〈…〉 tio praedicatio laboribus plena deerat Ideo Paulus â—it se adimplere quae desunt passionum Christi quia per multos labores Euangelium gentibus praedicabat And yet to make the Crosse and sufferings of Christ effectuall there wanted application of it by Preaching A thing laborious and exceding painefull For which cause Paul saith that hee filleth vp or supplyeth if you will that which was wanting vnto the sufferings of Christ for as much as with great paynes hee preached the Gospell vnto the Gentiles Differences there may be amongst Interpreters but none not partialists take it so as to make vp a Store-house for the Church out of Christs sufferings supplied by Saint Paul For so it must be admit this Magazin and we must admit a supply a supply is not but vpon insufficiency Can a man without blasphemie babble thus Christs imperfect a d insufficient sufferings were made vp and supplyed by Saint Paul In the merits of Christ there are no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comming short remaines or as you will call them wants For if so I say no more but how can your selfe call them superabundant as you doe and as they are The Text should speake expressely if you kept your wo 〈…〉 for making vp a store for the Church in time of need which is so farre from expressely doing that as that not obscurely it insinuateth what you pretend no not in the interpretations of no Babes vpon your owne partie Iesuites of note and learning Philip. 2. 30. Because for the worke of Christ he was nigh vnto death not regarding his owne life to supply your lacke Epaphroditus is the man there spoken of a faithfull seruant of Christ in the worke of the ministery who with the hazard of his owne life puts himselfe to doe seruice vnto the Church of God This is the commendation Saint Paul giueth of him Your inference is Hee did more than hee needed to haue done for who required any such seruice at his hand as this Hee might haue kept himselfe close and warme at home and haue slept if hee would in an whole skinne This is your good wholesome Catholique Doctrine For the benefit accruing out of the actions and Passions of Saints is to make vp the treasure of the Church out of workes supererogated by them when they doe more than God requireth As for instance when the Virgin Mary without not onely actuall sinnes mortall veniall in your opinion but also originall as not conceiued in them suffered yet much which was not due to her because all sufferings are the wages of Sinne as when martyrs suffer more or greater torments than can in iustice be exacted of them though God should enter into iudgment with them and deale with them in the rigour of his iustice So Epaphroditus sicke vnto death indu 〈◊〉 that which in no case was his deseruing or due vnto him hee indured it therefore for the Philippians sake that through his sufferings they might be saued and haue supply of that which was wanting in the reckoning to the sufferings of Christ as good blasphemy as euer was vttered by any enemy of the Grace of Christ I will abide by it Secondly admit it good Catholique truth yet is it not to purpose true for Epaphroditus was then aliue and vpon recouery aliues-like They are and must be dead that bring in their shot to make vp that masse of treasure for the Church and good cause why For though then at present hee had enough at home and also spare to serue others turnes yet wisdome would hee should not be too lauish or profuse for happely hee might haue neede thereof himselfe For your Doctrine also is Hee that standeth may fall No man is sure of his Saluation therefore well is it prouided though you regard it not or know it not that your store is not to be augmented till men are dead Thirdly in your owne construction and learning this Text of Saint Paul will doe you no good For in poynt of supply for Pardons and Indulgences from the Actions and Passions of Saints you admit not of merits but onely satisfactions Now this text serueth if at all for any thing to any purpose for merit and not for satisfaction Lastly you play the Catholique knaue in plaine termes a man may call a spade a spade and him a knaue that so deserueth it For you will conuict vs by our owne Bibles Now in our Bibles wee reade thus Because for the worke of Christ hee was nigh vnto death not regarding his life to supply your lacke of seruice towards mee You cut off these words of seruice towards mee and set vp your rest vpon to supply your lacke as if the defects of the Philippians
peccare nequid 〈…〉 deterius fiat Salomon denique Saul caeteri multi quam diu in vijs Domini ambulauerunt datam sibi gratiam tenere potuerunt recedente ab ijs disciplinâ Dominica recessit gratia Goulartius here talketh to no purpose in the Cloudes totally or finally it skilleth not the Grace of God departed away from them therefore they lost their Faith in Saint Cyprians iudgement by which they stood at first in Gods fauour And in Nazianzens too who writeth thus of Saul in his Apologie vnto his Father Pag. 37. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Annoynted hee was and made partaker of the holy Spirit and then at that time was Spirituall I dare not speake otherwise of him Nay more then so hee prophecyed And yet for all that because hee suffered not himselfe to be wholy and entirely directed by the Spirit nor became perfectly and sincerely another man what neede I relate the Tragicall end which hee vnder-went Saint Hierome forsaketh not his Masters direction Lib. 2. aduersus Pelagianos Ne beatum dixeris quempiam ante mortem Quamdiù enim viuimus in certamine sumus quamdiù in certamine nulla est certa victoria Call no man happy vntill he be dead So long as we liue wee are to striue and contend so long as there is opposition against vs so long we are not assured of the victory And else-where against Iouinian he teacheth that vntill a man repent Faith is cast off by sinne and the party in disfauour with God Saint Augustine proposeth it as an Article of his Creede de Corrept gratiâ 13. Credendum est quosdam de filijs perditionis non accepto dono perseuer andi vsque in finem in fide quae per dilectionem operatur incipere viuere aliquandiù fideliter iustè viuere posteà cadere neque de hac vitâ priusquam eis id contingat auferri And againe Ad quam vocationem pertinere nullus est homo ab hominibus certâ asseueratione dicendus nisi cum de hoc saecule exierit In hac autem vitâ humanâ quae tentatio est super terram qui videtur stare videat ne cadat And lastly Gregory Lib. 6. in primum Regum Quia Iudicium omnipotentis Dei imperscrutabile est vnde veniat quo vadat homo nescit quia sciri non potest an quis in gratia quam recepit perseuerare in perpetuum debeat Because the Iudgements of GOD Almighty are vnsearchable man doth not know either whence hee commeth or whether hee goeth because it cannot be knowne whether a man shall euer stand without falling in that Grace which hee hath receiued It was a Stoicall paradox grounded vpon their fatall necessity and concatenation of Causes that vertues once had cannot be lost at all Seneca thus in his 50 Epistle Semel tradidi boni possessio perpetua est Non dediscitur virtus Fideliter sedent quae in locum suum veniunt Good once had is held for euer in possession Vertue is not againe to bee learned For what thing soeuer hath obtained the proper place resteth therein without alteration If any such necessity be inferred by any it is but opinion not decision priuate opinion not publique resolution which a man may follow or abandon at pleasure not to be blamed for resolution So or so In course of Christianity and seruice of God Finis coronat actus It is the end that crowneth the Act. In mans profession of Loue Feare and Obedience of God Nilâ—praesumitur esse actum dum restat aliquid ad agendum The Law presumeth nothing at all is done so long as resteth any thing to be done Non quid egeris sed quid supersit curandum si dixisti Sufficit Defecisti It is not respected what is already performed by them but what remaineth yet vnfinished If thou say it is enough thou art fallen off and faintest For Leuit 22. Euer the tayle of the whole burnt Offering was offered Many begin to build but doe not all set vp the roofe Many thousands came out of Aegypt but few of them passed ouer Iordan Asa was good till the goâ—te vexed him Ionathan followed the Chace till hee met with Honey Many are good till they haue cause to be badde and then vertunt omnia ad extremum They end in the flesh that begun in the Spirit The Conclusion of all is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A man is not happy so long as hee liueth because it is vncertaine what shall become of him saith Saint Basil vpon the first Psalme These are the resolutions of many if not most Protestant Diuines as priuate men of Protestant Churches in their Decisions and Resolutions I am sure the Church of England doth not tender it to be taught or belieued that Faith had cannot be lost againe Priuate opinions of men are no Gospels of the Church I am of this opinion another is of that I maintaine Faith cannot be lost totally or finally another verily perswadeth himselfe it may be lost both totally and finally Hee that once was in regard of iustifying Faith and Grace the Childe of God may become the Childe of Sinne Wrath Death Hell and Destruction to neither of these doe I subscribe as de fide being vndecided vndetermined in the Church Lei euery man abound in his owne sense and vnderstanding what is it to mee so be it hee keepe Faith Peace Charitie and a good Conscience The very Church of Geneua it selfe as I was told by one of the chiefe Ministers thereof doth not maintaine these priuate opinions of the principall Pastors of that Church So that what honesty can there be in this rambling Companion who ranketh it with the Errours of the Protestants That Faith had cannot be lost Which if it were an errour as I dispute not that is as much or more opposed by Protestants as propugned As much refelled by Protestants as Papists Sir Gagger to let the World see your ignorance or impudency or both I haue laide these parts together out of Protestant Diuines I iustifie no priuate opinions Those that hold the one or other are old enough let them answere for themselues And so I proceede XXI That God by his will ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall bee damned and who saued DAmned and Saued diuide Mankinde Not any hath come forth of the loins of Adam but as this Gaggler will himself confesse is necessarily ranged in one of these Ranks either with the Damned or the Saued Sheep or Goats vpon the left hand or the right But he whosoeuer that is é censa damnandorum vel saluandorum finally and eternally damned or saued as one day actiuely all shall bee is so damned or saued not without God's will according to the purpose of his decree at least consequent though not antecedent who doth whatsoeuer hee will in heauen and earth who worketh all things according to the counsell of his will the highest Rule supremest Law nothing
departed receiue by the assistance of the Church To admit it euident and concerning succour which soules departed receiue and that by the assistance of the Church yet first I say you go from your word no such contrariety heer as you pretend Secondly you are a poor Ignaro that think soules must needs be in Purgatory that receiue assistance from the Church It may be your poor vnderstanding will wonder at it but knowe Sir I can admit Praier for the Dead and deny your Purgatory I can giue you reasons to pray for the Dead and yet keep farre enough from your Purgatory But for that some other time At present I answer You are a silly man that call this an euident place one of the hardest in all Scripture Quid sit baptizari pro mortuis obscurum est ab Authoribus variè exponitur say your owne men which is true For till this day it is not agreed what is the meaning no man can say This is the sense and yet our Blunderer saith It is euident Doo you knowe that some take pro mortuis for the Dead that is for sinnes because men die through sinnes and the works of sin are called Dead works And so men are baptized to be deliuered from sinne These men dreamt not of Purgatory That others vse pro mortuis that is doo represent the Dead because we die to sinne in Baptism and are buried vnto corruption And not much differing hence that others take it Into the death of Christ which of these thought vpon Purgatory Again some take Baptism for affliction men afflicted vnto death what shall they doo if the dead rise not again Some referre it vnto a Iewish custome by which if a man had died polluted another was clensed and washed for him that so beeing dead hee might get aduantage by it This Iewish Fable may happely look vpon your Purgatory and much good may it doo you Yet farther Chrysostome relateth vpon this place that when any of the Catechized among the Marcionite Heretiques died a liuing body was laid vnder the Beer and the question proposed vnto the Party If he would be baptized for you knowe the Catechumeni were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnbaptized The Party answered for the dead man Yes I will and so was hee baptized for him And thus they expounded Saint Paul's meaning Tertullian by dead vnderstandeth the body of man If there be no Resurrection to what end is the body baptized Epiphanius lastly and most men commonly take it for the baptizing of the Clinici as they called them Men in those times vsually deferred Baptism vntill their death and in extremis would be baptized So to be baptized for the Dead is to be baptized when men are ready to dy which they not doe but vpon hope of the Resurrection In such variety and greater than so yet saith this fellowe An euident place To come home to the assertion It is plaine and euident the Apostle speaketh not of any succour that soules departed receiued from the Suffrages of the Church which were it granted no necessity of Purgatory would ensue but of comfort that men receiued from that mayne point of our most holy faith the Resurrection of the Dead the mayne Subiect of that Chapter as euery child with vs can tell See more for wee haue seene but little hitherto 2. Tim. 1. 18. where That day is transmued into Purgatory For Saint Pauls words are The Lord grant vnto him that he may find mercy with the Lord at that day that is may bee deliuered out of Purgatory at the day of Iudgement So wheresoeuer God sheweth mercy there is Purgatory or All that finde mercy at the day of Iudgement come out of Purgatory Vnlesse this bee his meaning let him tell me what he would haue with Saint Paul here If this bee his meaning I wish him well for sure hee is in no right wits because so no man liuing can escape Purgatory by this inference For no man but findeth mercy with God before that time and then No man but needeth Gods mercy then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In that fearfull and terrible day when wee stand in need of great mercy indeed saith Chrysost who neuer dreamt of any Purgatory nor would haue sent Onesiphorus thither had hee fancied any such thing for euen according to your owne Doctrine his good deeds had not onely aboundantly merited for himselfe sufficiently satisfied for his Peccadilloes but his Indurances ouer and aboue layd somewhat vnto the Church-treasure And what hath Purgatory to do with such a man Esay 4. 4. the Prophet speaketh of the Spirit of burning and of Purging thus When the Lord shall wash the filthines of the daughter of Sion purge the blood of Ierusalem out of the midst thereof by the Spirit of iudgement and by the Spirit of burning then without all doubt Purgatory burneth apace the rather because Saint Augustine expoundeth it of Purgatory Lib. 20. de Ciuit. Dei Cap. 25 saith Bellar. You left vs to seeke Cap. 21 say others so your selues are to seeke I meane for any such thing in Saint Augustine For hee is belied in both places which touch not vpon Purgatory at all but manifestly designe the last Iudgement In the 21. he professes himself that his discourse was wholly therof à primo Saluatoris aduentu vsque ad vltimū Iudiciū de quo nunc agimus And more euidently Cap. 25. Videtur euidentius apparere in illo Iudicio quodam quorundā futuras Poenas purgatorias Purgatory paines are by S. Augustine put off and adiourned vnto the last Iudgement then to begin when yours end and this but in opinion not resolution Now Sir what aduantage haue you by Saint Augustine who speaketh opiningly of Purgatory but excludeth your Purgatory And to as much purpose is Saint Basil expounding the place of Esay 9. 18. of Purgatory you say The text is For wickednes burneth as a fire it deuoureth the briers and thornes and will kindle in the thick places of the Forrest and they shall mount vp like the lifting vp of smoke Basil in his exposition nameth purging fire I grant it but this purging fire is in life not after death in this world not in the world to come and God himselfe is this purging fire who abolisheth and consumeth iniquitie by Repentance being detected by confession as any man may see that will but looke vpon the place and the same Father vpon the 10. of Esay more plainely explicateth his owne meaning Pandit hic naturam ignis quia lustratiuus est et purgatorius Sanctificabit enim ipsum quasi in igne ardenti Quomodo autem sanctificat ignis Quia comesturus est syluam tanquam foenū Sanè ex quo Deus noster ignis consumens est consumet syluā et vitia quae à syluā siue materiâ promanant animae quae non degit in spiritu sed in carne Strange conceits that if any Father name purging fire hee must needs bee a
riddles Saint Hier in praefat commen in Eph. Saint Aug. Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith The things c. Saint Gregorie hom 6. in Ezech and many others confesse the same Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible Math. 23. 2. 2. 3. * Note here that he doth not say whosoeuer but whatsoeuer giuing vs thereby to vnderstand that not onely the bonds of sinne but as well all other knots and difficulties in matters of saith and manners are to be loosed by Saint Peter and by the Pastors that succeed him in the Church See more to this effect Deut. 17. 8. See Aggee the 2. and 11. 2 Chron. 19. 8. See Fathers which affirme the same S. Gregor Nazian in Oratione excusat Tertul. lib. de praescrip Haeret S. Cyprian Lib. 1. Epi. 3. S. Aug. lib. 1. cont Cres cap. 33. lib. cont epist Fund ca. 5. Whether now wilt thou beleeue so great a Bishop as S. Anselme or some other Host or Hostesse that sell bottle-ale Contrary to express words of their owne Bible 1. 2. 3. Thas Traditions are to be receiued see more Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer beare great Saint Basil See Fathers that affirme the same S. Basil lib. de spirit Sanct. ca. 27. saith that some things we haue from Tradition of the Apostles both which haue force alike vnto godlinesse Some things wee haue from Scripture other things from the Apostles Traditions both which haue like force vnto godlinesse Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer-beare great Saint Basil And consequently cannot erre See more Iohn 16. 13. Therefore it is not forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to bee in a tongue not vnderstood by the Assistants Now the names of the twelue Apostles are these the first Simon which is called Peter Therefore c. And what other thing is it for Peter to confirme and strengthen his brethren than to practice and exercise his greatnesse ouer them For he that doth strengthen and confirme is greater and they who are strengthened c. are made thereby inferiors to him who doth strengthen and confirme them See more for proofe hereof c. See Fathers that affirme the same Theoph. in 22. Luk calleth Peter Prince of the Disciples Eusebius in Chron First Bishop of Christians S. Cyril of Hier. Cat. 2. Prince and most excellent of all the Apostles S. Chrys hom 55. in Mat. Pastor and Head of the Church Cont. Crescon 3. 15. Contrary to their own Bible 2 Thes 2. 3. For so Saint Peter should then be Antichrist for he was Pope and the very first of Popes Therefore the great Antichrist shall be a particular man Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible See more Mat. 16. 19. See Fathers that affirme the same Contrary to the expresse words of your owne Bible Therefore sinnes may be confessed vnto man See the Fathers who affirme the same Tertul. lib. ad Mart. ca. 1. Pope Vrban the second graunted a plenary Indulgence to such as would goe to the Holy-Wars An. Christi 160. Hence hath the ground of Indulgences beene alwayes taken but more principally from the super abundant merit of Iesus Christ Whence it appeareth that man by assistance of Gods grace may doe some things counselled And these we call workes of supererogation See one Father for the same in stead of many I could produce See more Eccles 15. 14. Is it not then plaine wilfulnesse to denye Freewill See Fathers that affirme the same S. Iren. Lib. 4. cap. 7. Contrary to express words of their owne Bible Briefly if the Commandements were impossible they could binde no man For it is not to bee conceiued how one should sinne in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid It is not to be conceiued how one should sin in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid Lastly Saint Basill who saith it is an impious thing to say that the commandements of God are impossible See more 1 Cor. 9. c. See Fathers that affirme the same S. Ambrose de Apolog. Dauid ca. 6. S. Hier. lib. 3. cont Pelag. S. Aug. de spirit lit cap. vlt. 1. 2. 3. Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible See more Ose 13. 9 c. See Fathers that affirm the same S. Aug. lib. 1. ciuit Tert. de Orat cap. 8. S. Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist 2. S. Ambrose Lib. 2. de Cain et Abel will nâ—t that we refer vnto God the preuarication of Adam or treason of Iudas though hee knew the sin before it was committed Contrary to their owne Bible Therefore S. Paul himself was not assured infallibly A point of doctrine so improbable that we will not labour to ouerthrowe it by any further proof of Fathers Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible Mat. 18. 10 Therefore they had their Angell-keeper This very passage Saint Cyril of Alexandria Lib. 4. con Iulian. applieth to our Angel-keeper See more Acts 12. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 10. Contrary to expresse words in your owne Bibles Zach. 1. 9 10 11. Now what I pray you is a praier if this be not Contrary to their owne Bible That this was spoken to a true Angell and not to Christ Basil l. 3. c. Eunomium S. Chrys ho. 7. in laud. S. Pauli and vpon 1. of Col. and S. Hier. vpon 66 of Esay Which beeing so who for shame can say He prayed not vnto him See Fathers that affirme what hath beene said touching Angels For some such my self haue met with Therefore Saints deceased haue appearea to some on earth At Saint August witnesseth Lib. de cura mortis cap. 14. Nor can any be so senslesse as to say they pray for them selues Contrary to their owne Bible If an Horse or an Asse should pray c. Where note that Theodoret paraphrasing vpon Baruch interpreteth this very place as Catholiques doo Now is the Sunne more cleare than that Saints pray for vs Iob 1. 5. 〈◊〉 S. August himself expounds this very place as Catholiques doo in his Annot. vpon Iob. If it had not been the common custome in the time of Iob to inuocate the Saints deceased it had bin friuâ—lous for Eliphas to haue asked Iob to which of the Saints he wou'd t 〈…〉 See more Contrarie to expresse words of their owne Bibles In second of Kings but is the 4 by the account of Catholiques 13. 21. S. Chrysost To. 5. cont Gentil quòd Christus sit Deus in an whole Booke proues heerby and by the like vertue of other Saints that Christ their Lord and Master is God whose seruants napkins and shadows could do such wonders Are they not therefore fooles and blind that keepe such a â—ooting at Holy-bread Hooker Poor Protestant whither now is thy figure fled See Fathers that affirm the same S. Ignat. in his Epist ad Smyr Iustin Mar. Apol. 2. ad Antoninum Now say the truth and shame the Diuell are not they sick in their wits which will oppose such plaine Scriptures Deuter. 23. 22. Psal 66. 13. Psal 19. 11. 1. Tim. Math. 5. 12. Ier. 35. 5. Therefore it is grounded c. Contrary to their owne Bibles These freed Captiues cannot bee the soules of the Saued which no man in his right wits can call Captiues nor of the damned for so the diuels should be brought again into heauen Therefore they were the soules of the Fathers which Christ deliuered out of hell Acts 2. 27. Which very words Saint August applieth to the paint of Purgatory and addeth Who but an Infidel will deny Christ to haue descended into hell Ep. 99. ad Euodium Saint Ambrose Ser. 20 in Psal 118. Saint Hierome vpon 4 of Amos Saint August vpon the 37 Psal Saint Gregory lib. 4. Dial. explicate this very place of Purgatory Heb. 9. 1. 5. Lo Saint Paul calleth the pictures of the Cherubins which Salomon made an Ordinance of diuine Seruice which Protestants call the making of Idols who now shall we beleeue whether S. Paul or a Protestant When painting and grauing of 〈◊〉 tures is so farre from beeing Idolatry that it is prooued to be a Science diuinely infused by God himself Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible and he said Draw not nigh hither c. Lo how cleer a place is produced heer against Protestants where an insensible â—reature without reason was commanded by God himselfe to be honored Now the principal reason why the Arke was worshipped was in regard of the Images that were vpon it which as S. Ierom saith the lewes did worship in his Ep. ad Marcellan Num. 21. 8. Hence are euidently prooued diuers things against Protestants c. See Fathers that affirme the same Saint Ambrose Ser. 1. in Psal 118. Where first our Lord hauing taught his owne Disciples that excellent Prayer of all praiers which hee would haue them to offer to him the Pater noster or our Lords Praier hee afterwards in many other places willeth them to pray alwaies as Luke 18. 1. The Angels in the Prophet Esay Esay 6. and the beasts in the Apoc. Apo. 4. which rest neither dâ—y nor night do thrice repeat c.