A REPLYE TO AN answere made of M. Doctor VVhitegifre AGAINSTE THE ADMONITION to the Parliament By T. C. ISAIE 61. ver 1. For Syons sake I will not holde my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not rest vntill the righteousnes therof breake forthe as the lighte and the saluation thereof be as a burning lampâ— Ver. 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers keepe not silence and geue hym no rest vntill he repayre and set vp Ierusalem the prayse of the world The Printer to the Reader SOme perhaps will maruel at the newe impression of thys boke and so muche the more will they wonder because they shall see that with great confidence boldnes notwythstanding our most gracious Princes late published proclamation procured rather by the Byshops then willingly sought for by her maiestie whose mildnes is such that she were easyer led to yelde to the proclamation of the highest then drawne to proclaime any thing against hym were it not for the subtil perswasions and wicked dealings of thys horned generation as by their false doctrine and cruell practises is to bee seene and by the speciall motion of Gods spirite and hys protection it hath bene both attempted and ended But cease to muse good christian reader whosoeuer thou art and learne to know that no lawes were they neuer so hard and seuere can put out the force of Gods spirite in hys children nor any cruelty though it stretched it selfe so far as to sheding of bloud from which kynde of dealing the Byshops are not cleare as the Prysons in London the Gatehouse at Westminster c. can witnesse the Lord for geue them and vs our sinnes can discharge the sayntes and seruauntes of the Lord from going forwarde in that which is good For the profite therefore of the godly and their instruction haue we hazarded our selues and as it were cast our selues into suche daungers and troubles as shal be layed vpon vs if we come into the haÌ„ds of the persecuting Bishops From the which pray the Lord if it be hys will to delyuer vs if not yet that it woulde please hym to geue vs both patience to beare what so euer he shall geue them power and lyberty to lay vpon vs and constancy also to contynue in hys truth and the profession thereof vnto our lyues end Farewell in the Lord and prayse God for thys worke I. S. Faultes escaped Page 2. line 14. for arme read army pa. 60. line 30. for thys spirite read hys spirite Page 39. line 41. for when read whom pa. 39. line 47. for against them read agaynst hym Page 26. line 37. for appose read oppose pa. 23. line 31. for ioipon read loipon and for proegoron read proegoros pa. 10. li. 41. for kairoutiche read kairou tyche pa. 69. for dioceris diocesis Page 9. line 16. put a comma at speache and a full poynt at vse Page 106. line 12. for to breake read doe breake Page 118. line 31. in the ende therof adde whych thyng also M. Doctor graunteth Page 127. line 6. for I beleue read I wil beleue page 127. line 8. For the apostles read For the false Apostles page 129. line 51. for and more in the read and more to in the. Page 130. line 41. for sole meditation read sole mediation page 137. line 49. for and that it is read and it is page 138. line 4. for ingenium read ingenuum page 138. line 14. for necessary read necessarily page 141. line 15. for there is greater read there is a greater Page 142. line 32. for and other read an other page 144. line 7. for herevpon read herevnto Page 144. line 51. for celebrating in one kinde read celebrating it in one kinde Page 146. line 18. for the other vsed in the other vsed only in pa. 160. li. 23. for tute read true Page 163. line 43. for there were many read there were very many page 174. line 3. for Ambose read Ambrose page 188. line 29. for in England or in Ireland read and in England Page 189. line 8. for vicarse read vicares page 1â—8 in the margent for Concil Valense reade Concil Vasense page 201. in the margent adde to that of August lib. 2. de consolatione mortuorum cap. 5. page 207. line 42. read for catexochen read cathexochen Page 205. line 21. for possessed read dysposesssed Page 210. line 46. and other thyngs and do other thyngs pa. 214. li. 15. for iabon read labon Page 215. line 20. for or so much deceyued of read or so much as deceiued A short Table of the princypall poyntes entreated of in thys boke made according to the order of the Alphabet A  M. Doctors Anacletus counterfait 92. M. Doctors Anicetus counterfait 92. There are now no Apostles 63. The churche was established in the Apostles tymes 51. Apostles appoynted no archbyshoppes but byshoppes 92. Corruptions entred into the church immediatly after the times of the apostles 96. Apparell of the mynisters 71. c. Apparell of mourners is either hypocriticall or els daungerous to prouoke excessiue sorrow 201. Archbyshops archdeacons names vnlawfull 82. c. Archbyshops names are not so auncient as they be supposed 88. c. Archbyshops and archdeacons offyces vnlawfull 83. c. Archbishops offices as they were in times past haue now no place with vs and of the small prerogatiue which they had then aboue other byshops 122. c. Archbyshops not spoken of by Cyprian nor bishops such as oures is but of S. Paules bishops 98. c. Archdeacons in times past how much they differed from oures now 96. Arguments of authority negatiuely or affirmatiuely out of the scripture good the vse of theÌ„ when they be drawne from men 25. B  QuestioÌ„s about Baptisme answered 172. c. QuestioÌ„s ministred to infaÌ„ts in Baptisme 169 Crossing in Baptisme wherof it rose 170. c Basile a poore Metropolitane 94. Byshops in tymes past most vnlike oure byshops now 106. c. General faults of the Boke of coÌ„mon prayer 131. Prescript forme of prayer at Burials inconuenient 200. Les lamenting the dead and les charges about Burials permitted vnto vs then to those vnder the law 200. c. Buryall sermons inconuenient 201. c. Buryall places where they were in the olde churches 69. C  Cathedral churches in times past those which are now greatly differ 204. Cathedral churches rightly called dens do hurt the good which they might do if they were conuerted into colledges or houses of study 205. â— â–ª Ceremonies must be tried by rules in the scripture and by which 27. Ceremonies making in the church belongeth vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 192. Difference betwene placing Ceremonies in the church which were not besâ—â—e tollerating those which are already placed 25. Chauncelers iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Church hath not power to ordayne whether preaching or ministring of the sacramentes shal be priuate or publike 28. Church must not be framed vnto the common wealth but the
that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perswasion that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we perswade and assure our selues that we do well but whereas we haue the word of God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto doth geue to vnderstād from whence the assured persuasion doth spring Whereupon it falleth out the forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the church and which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of god Not that we say as you charge vs in these words that no ceremonie c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church it is not lawfull to doe what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are geuen to be the squire whereby those should be squared out Which rules I will here set downe as those which I would haue as well al orders ceremonies of the church framed by as by the which I wil be content that all those orders ceremonies which are now in question whether they be good conuenient or no should be tried examined by And they are those rules which Paule gaue in such cases as are not particularly mētioned of in scripture The first that they offend not any especially the Church of God. The second is that which you cite also out of Paul that all be done in order and comclynes The thirde that all be done to edifying The last that they be done to the glory of God. So that you see that those things which you recken vp of the houre time day of prayer c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture yet they are not left to any to order at their pleasure or so that they be not agaynst the worde of God but euen by and according to the word of God they must be established and those alone to be taken which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited And so it is brought to passe which you thinke a great absurdity that al things in the church should be appoynted according to the word of god Wherby it likewise appeareth that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church because they are of the nature of those which are varyed by times places persons other circumstances so could not at once be set down established for euer yet so left to the order of the church as that it do nothing agaynst the rules aforsayde But how doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the church therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archbishop to alter the ministerie the is appointed by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a deacon wher he might exercise his charge of prouiding for the pore to abrogate cleane both name office of the elder with other more how I say doth it follow the because the church hath power to order certaine things therfore it hath power to do so of these which God hath ordayned and established of the which there is no tyme nor place nor person nor any other circumstance which can cause any alteration or chaunge Which thing shall better appeare both in the discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certayne reasons why there should be other gouernmēt now then was in the tyme of the apostles But whyle you goe about to seme to say much rake vp a great nomber of thinges you haue made very euill mestin and you haue put in one thinges which are not paires nor matches Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put vppe I will not stand to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the resurrection of our sauiour Christ and so the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes sabboth was the day wherein the world was finished and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was your iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appoynted no discipline nor correction for suche as shall contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God VVhat churche discipline would you haue other then admonions reprehensions and if these will not profitte excommunication and are they not appoynted of our sauioure Christe There are also ciuill punishments and punishmentes of the body likewise appoynted by the word of God in diuers places in Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods and not to the Lorde alone shall dye the death And in Deutcronomie Thou shalt burne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may heare learne and not dare do the like The execution of thys law appeareth in the Chro. by king Aza who made a law that all those that did not seke the Lord shuld be kilde And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contēners of the word prayers There are other for such as neglect the worde which are according to the quantitie of the fault so that whether you meane ciuil or ecclesiasticall correction the scripture hath defined of them both I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common translation calleth Ezra of chaires in S. Mathew where by the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching Of sitting at the communion which the Euangelist noteth to haue bene done of our Sauioure Christ with his disciples which examples are not to be lightly chaunged and vppon many occasions But this I can not omitte that you make it an indifferent thing to preache the word of God in churches or in houses that is to say priuately or publikely For what better interpretation can I haue then of your owne wordes which say by and by after of Baptisme that it is at the order of the church to make it priuate or publike For if it be in the power of the church to order that Baptisme may be ministred at the house of euery priuate person it is also in her power to ordayne that the worde be preached also priuately And then where is that which Salomon sayth that wysdom cryeth openly in the streates and at the corners of the stretes where
it were a priuate example of one or in one place alone or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the scripture then the example were not alwayes safe to follow But what if there bee commaundement also In the booke of Numbers the Lorde commaundeth that the Leuites which preached the word of God to the people in their seuerall congregations shoulde be brought before the Lorde and before the people and the people should lay theyr handes vppon the Leuites heades which what other thing is it then to declare their lyking of them and by that ceremony to consecrate them and set them aparte for that vse of their ministerie And if you say that it were a disorder that all shoulde lay on their handes I graunt you but so he speaketh because the approbatiō was by all and some in the name of the rest declared that by their laying on of handes But me thinketh I heare your olde answere that this pertaineth not vnto vs being a thing done vnder the law but take heede what you say for if you wil admit neyther the generall examples of the newe Testament nor the commaundements and examples of the Olde take heede that you do not or euer you be aware spoile vs of the cheefe and principall pillers and buttresses of our religion and bring vs to plaine Catabaptistrie whych you say you are so afraid of For to proue the Baptisme of children and yong infantes what stronger holde haue we then that God commaunded in the old Testament the they should be circumcised and examples thereof in the newe Testament for that the Apostles baptised whole families wherby all likelyhode there were children Now we saye that there is thys commaundement in the olde Testament of the ministers and there are examples in the newe Testament generall and through out why shuld it not then be necessary in this as wel as in the other Besides that in the. 6. of the Actes the Apostles commaund that the church should seke them out Deacons whome they might appoynt ouer the poore Touching certaine Ceremonies I haue shewed that they are necessarye as namely the Sacraments And as for Discipline and gouernment I haue shewed partly and more heereafter will be shewed that they are of the substance of the gospell if to haue Excommunication be to haue Discipline or if to haue pastors or Byshops and Doctors and Deacons be gouernment of the Churche You say that howsoeuer in the Apostles time thys vse was of hauing the consent of the church in the choise of their pastor or byshop nowe in thys estate it were moste pernicious and hurtfull Wherin see how vnaduisedly you condemne the churches of Geneua of all Fraunce of certaine of the Germaine churches which keepe thys order But you alledge your reasons therefore those those are to be considered because they come so rare For your manner is that if you can haue but one wryter newe or olde of your side or whych seemeth to be of your side you runne away wyth the matter as though you had scripture reason doctors and all I will therefore then take a viewe of your reasons when as I shall haue breefely set downe those reasons wherby the perpetuall equitie reasonablenes and conueniencie of thys order that the church should haue a stroke in her ministers election may appeare It is sayd amongst the Lawyers and in deede reason which is the law of all nations confirmeth it Quod omnium interest ab omnibus approbari debet That whych standeth all men vpon should be approued of all men Which lawe hath this sense that if it may be it were good that those things whych shall binde all men and whych require the obedience of all shoulde be concluded as farre as may be by the consent of all or at least by the consent of as many as may be gotten And therfore it draweth much the obedience of the subiectes of thys realme that the statutes whereby the realme is gouerned passe by the consent of the moste parte of it whilest they be made by them whome the rest put in trust and chuse for that purpose being as it were all their actes So is it also when the question is to chuse the magistrate Mayor or bailiffe or Constable of euery towne whych things if they haue good groundes in ciuill affaires they haue much better in Ecclesiasticall For it is much more vnreasonable that there should be thrust vpon me a gouernoure of whom the euerlasting saluation or damnation both of my body and soule doth depend then him of whome my wealth and commoditye of thys life doth hang. Onles those vpon whome he were thrust were fooles or madde men or children wythout all discretion of ordering them selues whych as I will shewe can not agree wyth those that are the church of god and are to haue a pastor For they of the church of God although they be called sheepe in respect of their simplicitye and harmelesnes yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpents in the wisdom especially whych is to saluation and how vile accompt so euer you wil make of of them they are the people of God and therfore spirituall and forthwith those of whome S. Paule sayth the spirituall man discerneth all thyngs Moreouer reason and experience teacheth that it maketh muche to the profiting of the church vnder the hande of the pastor or bishop that the churche loue him and reuerence him For the contempt and hatred of the minister for the most parte standeth not in hys owne person but reacheth euen vnto the doctrine whych he teacheth But the minister that the churche desireth it commonly best loueth and moste reuerenceth and of the other side hateth and contemneth hym that is thrust vpon them therfore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the gospell that the minister come in by their consent Likewise the people must by S. Paule hys rule folowe the good example of the minister but men will not likely folowe their examples whome they loue not nor loue them whych are thrust vpon them against their willes therfore it standeth wyth the good conuersation and godlye folowing of the steppes of the minister that he be wyth the consent of the Churche And if it should happen whych may come to passe that any church should desire or chuse or consent vpon by the most part some that is vnmete eyther for doctrine or manners then the ministers and elders of the other churches rounde about should aduertise first and afterward as occasion should serue sharply and seuerely charge that they forbeare suche election or if it be made that they confirme it not by suffering him to exercise any ministerie And if eyther the churches round about do faile of this duety or the church whych is admonished rest not in their Admonition then to bring it to the nexte Synode and if it rest not therin then the Prince or Magistrate whych must see
oute any wythout good cause that then the Magistrates shoulde compell the churches to doe their duetye In deede the byshop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperoure hys handes because of the lyghtnesse of the people as Platina maketh mention but that is not the matter for I do nothing else heere but shew that the elections of the ministers by the Church were vsed in the times of the Emperoures and by their consentes and seeing that Otho confessed it pertayned not vnto him it is to be doubted whether he tooke it at the Bishop his handes And if the Emperoures permitted the election of the byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suertie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome which with their byshoppes dyd often tymes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both Cities townes they dyd not deny the elections of the ministers to the people Besides that certayne of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperoures were and lyued betweene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynt of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hyther to thys lyberty was not gone out of the Church albeit the Pope which brought in all tyranny and went about to take all libertie from the churches was now on horse backe had placed hym selfe in that Antichristian seate To the next section in the 45. THose that write the Centuries suspect thys Canon and doubt whether it be a bastarde or no considering the practise of the church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayde that thys order of chusing the minister by voyces of the church was but in the Apostles tyme and duryng the time of persecution And the first time you can alledge thys libertie to be taken awaye was in the 334. yeare of our Lorde which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to raigne I say at the least because there be good authors that say that thys Councell of Laodicea was holden Anno. 338. after the death of Iouinian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines raigne and thys councel Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder persecution in Cōstantines tyme And therfore you see you are greatly deceiued in your accoumpt And if it be as lawfull for vs to vse maister Caluins authoritie which both by example and wrytings hath alwayes defended our cause as it is for you to wryng him and his wordes to things which he neuer meant and the contrary wherof he continually practised then thys authoritie of youres is dashed For maister Caluin sayth where as it is sayd in that councel that the election should not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouyde that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were cheefe in the election of the churches And euen the same order woulde we haue kepte in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we would haue the libertie of the Church preserued which Christ hath bought so dearely from all tyranny so do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre all barbarous confusion and disorder But if councelles be of so great authoritie to decide thys controuersy then the most famous councell of Nice will strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistle that it wryteth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that you should haue power both to chuse any man and to geue their names which are worthy to be amongst the clergye and to doe all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the churche And if it happen any to dye in the churche then those which were last taken are to be promoted to the honor of him that is dead with thys condition if they be worthy and the people chuse them and the bishop of the citie of Alexandria together geuing his consent and appoynting them An other of the famousest councelles called the councell of Constantinople which was gathered vnder Theodosius the great as it is witnessed by the * Tripartite storie in an Epistle which it wrote to Damasus the pope and Ambrose and others sayth thus We haue ordayned Nectarius the byshoppe of Constantinople with the whole consent of the counsell in the sight of the Emperour Theodosius beloued of God the whole Citie together decreeing the same Likewise he sayth that Flauian was appoynted by that synode byshop of Antioche the whole people appoynting him Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was holden about anno domini 400. in the first canon of the councell it is sayde when hee hath bene examyned in all these and founde fully instructed then let hym be ordayned Byshop by the common consent of the clarkes and the lay people and the Byshoppes of the prouince and especially eyther by the authoritie or presence of the metropolitane And in the Toletane councell as it appeareth in the 51. distinction it was thus ordayned Let not hym be counted a priest of the Churche for so they speake whome neyther the clergye nor people of that citie where he is a priest doth chuse nor the consent of the metropolitane other priests in that prouince hath sought after Moreouer concilium Cabilonense which was holden anno domini 650. in the tenth Canon hath thys If any Bishop after the death of hys predecessor be chosen of any but of the byshops in the same prouince and of the cleargie citizens let an other be chosen and if it be otherwise let that ordination be accompted of none effect All which councelles proue manifestly that as the people in their elections had the ministers rounde about or synodes counceiles directing them so there was none came to be ouer the people but by their voyces or consentes To the next section in the 45. page Thys alteration c. IN deede if you put such darke coleures vpon the Apostles church as thys is it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our church after it But O Lord who can paciently heare thys horrible disorder ascribed to the Apostles church which heere you attribute vnto it that euery one hand ouer head preached baptised and expounded the Scriptures VVhat a window nay what a gate is opened heere to Anabaptistes to confirme their fantasticall opynion wherin they holde that euery man whome the spirite moueth may come euen from the ploughe taile to the pulpit to preache the worde of god If you say it is Ambrose saying and not youres I answere vnlesse you allow it why bring you it and that to proue the difference betwene the Apostles times and these
wemen shoulde haue their voyces whiche is vnseemely all men vnderstand that where the election is most freest and most generall yet only they haue to doe which are heades of families and that thys is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred which is vnworthy to be answered requireth rather a Censor then a Disputer to suppresse it To the. 47. and. 48. pages THe reason is of greater force then you woulde seeme to make it for as the twelueth place was to Mathias so is a certayne churche vnto a pastor or mynister and as the Apostles ordayned none vnto that place before it was voyde so ought not the Byshoppe ordayne anye vntill there be a churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordayned not any Apostle further then they had testimonie of the worde of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no byshop ordayne anye to anye function which is not in the scripture appoynted but there are by the worde of God at thys time no ordinarie ministeries ecclesiasticall which be not locall and tyed to one congregation therefore thys sending abrode of ministers which haue no places is vnlawfull And that it may the better appeare that those functions doe only remayne which are appoynted to one certayne place and that the reader may haue the clearer and playner vnderstanding of all this matter all the whole ecclesiasticall function may be well deuided first into extraordinarie or those that endured for a time and into ordinarie which are perpetuall Of the first sorte are the Apostles and Euangelistes which the Lord vsed for a tyme as it were for cheefe masons and principall builders of his church as well to lay the foundations of churches where none were as also to aduaunce them to such forwardnesse and heighte vntill there mighte be gotten for the finishing of the building and house of the Church fitte pastors elders and deacons And that being done they went from those places into others which thing may be perceiued by the continuall storie of the Actes of the Apostles and by diuers sentences which are found in the Epistles of S. Paule And therefore also when the churches haue beene by antichrist euen rased from the foundations God hathe stirred vp Euangelistes euen immediatly by this spirite without any calling of men to restore hys churches agayne of whiche sorte was Maister Wickliffe in our Countrie Maister Hus and Ierome of Prage in Bohemia Luther and ♉ winglius in Germanie c. And after thys sorte God maye at hys good pleasure worke when hee purposeth to set in hys gospell in anye nation where the whole face of the earth is couered wyth the darckenesse of ignoraunce and wante of the knowledge of God. Of this sort of extraordinary functions are the Prophetes also which besides a singular dexteritie and readines of expounding the scriptures had also the gift of telling things to come which because it is not now ordinarily I thincke there is none wildeny but it is an extraordinary calling For the other two of the Apostles and Euangelistes it shall appeare more at large hereafter by occasion geuen by maister Doctor that they are but for a tune The ordinary continual functions of the church are also deuided into two partes for eyther they are they that gouerne or take charge of the whole church as are those which are called elders or they which take charge of one part of the Churche which is the poore of euery church as are those which are called deacons Those agayne that are presbyteri which we terme elders of the church and haue to do with the whole church are eyther those which teache and preach the word of God and gouerne so or else which gouerne only and do not teach nor preach Of the first kinde are pastors doctore Of the second are those which are called by the cōmon name of elders or auncients Of all this ordinary function I shall haue occasion to speake and of euery one shall appeare that which I haue sayd before that they are no vncertaine and vndefunte ministeries but such as are limited vnto a certaine churche and congregation And first of all for the pastor or byshoppe whych is heere mentioned whych name so euer we consider of them they do forthwith as sone as they are once either spoken or thought of imply and infer a certen and definite charge being as the Logicians terme them actuall relatiues For what shepheard can there be vnles he haue a flocke and howe can he be a watchman vnles he haue some citie to loke vnto Or how can a man be a master onles he haue a seruaunt Or a father vnles he haue a childe Nowe if you will say that they haue a charge and they haue flockes and cities to attende and watche vppon for a wholo shire or prouince or realme are their flockes and their cities and their charges First of all in your reading ministers that is vntrue for they goe not to reade in all churches but tary vntill they be hired in one And therfore when the Bishop hath laide hys hand of them they are no more ministers then before hys hund came vpon them because they haue no charges and therfore the patrone or person that hireth them to read and setteth them a worke are their byshops and make them ministers and not the Bishop of the diocese Secondarily for those that preache to haue a whole diocese or prouince or realme to be their flocke or citie to attend vpon is contrary to the pollicy or good husbandrye of all those that woulde eyther haue their citie safe or their flockes sound For who are they whych would appoynt one for the watch of a thousand townes or cities when as all they whych loue their safetye woulde rather haue for euery citye many watchmen then for many cities one or what is he that is so watchfull and circumspect whose diligence and watchfulnes one citye assaulted wyth ennemies will not wholely occupy and take vp or what is he whose sight is so sharpe that he can see from one ende of the diocese or prouince or realme to the other ende thereof or what is he that will commit the keeping of .xx. M. sheepe to one man that loketh for any good or encrease of them howe shall all these heare hys whistle howe shall all knowe his voyce when they can not heare it how shall they acknowledge hym when they can not knowe hym howe shall they folowe him when they can not see him goe before howe shall he heale their diseases when he can not possibly know them But some man wil say that these are humaine reasons and likelyhodes whych maye be ouerthrowne wyth other similitudes These notwithstanding are Analogies drawne from the nature of those things whych the ministers are likened vnto and are of the moste parte vsed of the holy Ghoste hym selfe expresly But that there be no
must depose that the name of an archbyshop is not antychristian of whome as of Clement that went before and Anicetus which followeth after the common prouerbe may be verifyed Aske my fellow if I be a theefe And although the answerer be ashamed of hym and sayth therefore he will omit him yet euen very neede dryueth hym to bring hym in and to make hym speake the vttermost hee can And thys honest man sayth that Iames was the first archbyshop of Ierusalem But Eusebius sayth Iames was byshop not archbyshop of Ierusalem and appoynted by the apostles And in an other place he sayth that the apostles dyd appoynt after hys death Simeon the sonne of Cleophas byshop of Ierusalem And Ireneus sayeth that the apostles in all places appoynted byshops vnto the churches whereby it may appeare what an idle dreame it is of Clement Volusianus and Anacletus eyther that Peter dyd thys by his owne authoritie or that the primitiue churche was euer staynes wyth these ambytious tytles of patriarche prymate metropolytane or archbyshoppe when as the storyes make mention that thoroughe out euery churche not chery prouince not by Peter or Paule but by apostles a byshop not an archbyshop was appoynted And heere you put me in remembraunce of an other argument agaynst the archbyshop which I will frame after thys sorte If there shoulde be any archbyshop many place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the persone or minister and hys excellencie or in respecte of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent mynisters that euer were in the most famous places were no archbyshops but byshops only therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any archbyshop For if there were euer mynister of a congregation worthy that was Iames if there were euer any citte that ought to haue thys honor as that the mynister of it should haue a more honorable title then the mynisters of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the gospell issued out vnto all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the church there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bene since which also deserued great honoure for that there the * disciples were first called christians but neyther was that called the first and cheefest church neyther the mynisters of it called the Arche or principal byshoppes And Eusebius to declare that thys order was firme and durable sheweth that S. Iohn the Apostle which ouer lyued the residue of the Apostles ordayned byshops in euery church These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bene conuinced and condemned and stande vppon the pillery with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he which runneth may reade Some of the papistes them selues haue suspected them but those which mayntayne the truth haue condemned them as full of popery full of blasphemy and as those in whome was the very spirit of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctryne And do you marke what you say when you say that these are but suspected Thus much you say that it is suspected or in doubt whether the whole body of poperie and antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or sone after or no for Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer and so you leaue it in dout whether the apostles appoynted and were the authors of popery or no. I thinke if euer you had red the Epistles you woulde neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe You come after to the councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the CCC xxx yeare of the Lorde when as it maye appeare by Eusebius hys Computation that it was holden Anno Domini CCC xx and heere you take so greate a leape that it is enoughe to breake the archbishoppes necke to skippe at once CCC yeares that is from the tyme of the apostles vntill the time of the councell of Nice wythout any testimony of any either father or storie of faithe and credite whych maketh once mention of an archbishop What no mention of hym in Theophilus byshop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustin Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers out of the whych Eusebius gathereth hys story Was it for his basenes and smalnes that he could not be seene amongst the byshops elders and deacons being the cheefe and principall of them all can the Ceder of Lebanon be hid amongst the boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethorike ad Theodecten sayeth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other belike therefore if there were any archbishop he had no chaire in the church but was as it semeth digging at the metalles For otherwise they that haue filled their bookes wyth the often mentioning of bishops would haue no doubt remembred him But let vs heare what the councell of Nice hath for these titles In the. 6. canon mention is made of a metropolitane bishop what is that to the metropolitane whych is now either to the name or to the office of the office it shal appeare afterwards In the name I thinke there is a great differēce betwene a metropolitane bishop metropolitane of England or of al England A Metropolitane bishop was nothing els but a bishop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or magistrate to make the chefe citie of the diocese or shire and as for thys name it maketh no more difference betwene bishop and bishop then when I say a minister of London and a minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised whych will gather of thys saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betweene those two ministers as is betweene London and Nuington for his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter There are alledged to proue the names of archbyshops patriarkes archdeacons the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the councel of Nece For the. 25. 26. 27. there are no such canons of that councell and although there be a thirtenthe canon there is no worde of patriarke or archdeacon there contained And I maruell wyth what shame you can thruste vppon vs these counterfaite canons whych come out of the popes minte yea and whych are not to be found Theodoret sayeth that there are but twentie Canons of the councell of Neece and those twentie are in the tome of the councels and in those there is no mention of any patriarke archdeacon archbishop Ruffine also remembreth 22. Canons very little differing from those other twenty but in lengthe and in none of those are found any of these names of archbishop archdeacon patriarke And it is as lawfull for M. Harding to alledge the. 44. canon of the coūcell of Nece to proue the supremacie
whych handled the pen of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battell against the enemies of god And in the boke of Samuel and of the Kings where Nayothe and Bethel Ierycho and a place beyond Iordan are specified places whych were scholes or vniuersities where the schollers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning The continuaunce of whych scholes and vniuersities amongste the people of God maye be easely gathered of that whych S. Luke wryteth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certen Colledges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one Colledge to receiue the Iewes and Proselites whych came out of Cilicia an other for those that came out of Alexandria c. to study at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shew such euidence for archbyshops and archdeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I wil not deny but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Furthermore he sayeth that the church is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an archbyshop or archdeacon can be shewed we will not striue for the name but for so much as all the nedefull offices of the church togither wyth their names are mentioned in the scripture it is truly sayde that bothe the offices and names of archbyshop and archdeacon being not only not contained in them but also condēned ought to be banished out of the churche Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any waight in his words nameth an archb I haue before shewed what waighte there is in his woordes and I refuse not that he be weyghed wyth the byshops owne weightes whych he geueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacye and in the. 223. and 224. pages by the whych waightes appeareth that thys Anacletus is not only lyght but a plaine counterfait The second reason whych sayeth that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all thyngs needefull appoynted by the commaundement of God the byshop sayeth he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothyng les ment then that the church vnder the gospell should haue all those thyngs that that church had or shoulde haue nothing whych that had not but thys therevpon is concluded that the Lord whych was so carefull for that as not to omit the least would not be so careles for this church vnder the gospel as to omit the greatest And where he sayeth that there was then whych was called highe priest and was ouer all the rest he did well know that the cause therof was because he was a figure of Christe and dyd represent vnto the people the cheefetye and superioritye of oure sauioure Christe whych was to come and that oure sauioure Christe being come there is nowe no cause why there should be any such preheminence geuen vnto one and further that it is vnlawfull that there shoulde be any suche vnles it be lawfull to haue one head ▪ byshop ouer all the church For it is knowne that that prieste was the heade priest ouer all the whole Churche whych was during hys time vnto our sauioure Christe And as for those titles cheefe of the sinagogue cheefe of the sanctuary cheefe of the house of God I say that that maketh muche agaynst archbyshoppes and archdeacons for when as in steade of the sinagogue and of the sanctuarie and of the house of God or Temple are come particulare churches and congregations by this reason it foloweth that there shoulde be some cheefe not in euery prouince or diocese but in euery congregation and in dede so ought there to be certen cheefe in euery cōgregation whych should gouerne and rule the rest And as for the cheefe of the families of the Leuites and cheefe of the families of the priestes the same was obserued in all other tribes of Israell as a ciuile thyng And by all these princes ouer euery tribe and family as by the Prince of the whole land God did as it were by diuers liuely pictures unprint in their vnderstanding the cheefety and domination of our sauior Christ Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoyntment of their gouernors were done of Dauid by the aduise of the prophets Gad Nathan whych receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whych they deluiered to Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that archbyshops and archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then thys allegation hath some force but now being not only not commaunded but also as I haue shewed forbiddē euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the archbyshop and archdeacon For if Dauid being such a notable personage and as it were an angell of God durst not take vpon him to bring into the church any orders or pollicies not only not against the word of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shall dare to be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the cheefe office of the church and to alter the pollicy that God hath established by hys seruauntes the apostles And where the byshop sayth it is knowne and confessed that there wanted many things to the perfection of the church of the Iewes truely I do not know nor can not confes that that church wanted any thing to the perfection of that estate whych the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauior Christ and if there were any thing wanting it was not for want of good lawes and pollicies wherof the question is but for want of due execution of them whych we speake not of For the two last reasons against the archbyshop and archdeacon although I be well acquainted wyth diuers that fauor this cause yet I did neuer heare them before in my life and I beleeue they cannot be proued to be hys reasons whose they are supposed to be and whych did set downe that proposition that the byshop confuteth Notwithstanding the former of these two seemeth to haue a good probability and to be grounded of that place of Logicke that sheweth that according as the subiect or substance of any thing is excellent so are those things that are annexed and adioyned vnto it But because I wold the simplest should vnderstand what is sayd or written I will willingly abstaine from such reasons the termes wherof are not easely perceiued but of those whych be learned And as for the answer whych the byshop maketh that in place of apostles prophets the gifts of tongues of healing and of gouernment are brought in vniuersities scholes byshops and archbyshops for scholes and vniuersities I haue shewed they haue bene alwayes and therfore can not come in to supply the roume of the apostles and prophets And
common wealth vnto the church 181. Drunkardes whoremongers c. papistes are neither of the church nor in the church 50. M. Doctors Clemens counterfait 88. c. Communion receiued by 2. or 3. the rest of the church departing not to be suffered 147. c. Papistes ought not to bee compelled to receiue the Communion of the Lord nor to be admitted if they offer them selues 167. c. Communicants what they be which must of necessitie be examined 164. c. Wherupon the ministring of the Communion in houses to sicke parsons rose 146. c. Common bread most conuenient for the Communion 164. c. Kneeling at the Communion daungerous and not so agreeable to the action of the supper as sitting 165. c Confirmation of children ought to be taken away 199. D  Deacons ordayning with vs in part examined 39 Deacons were in euery church 190. c. Deacons office is only in prouiding for the poore of the church 190. Deacons office perpetuall 191. Deacons may not preach nor baptise 161. DecoÌ„sh is no ordinary step to the ministery 163 Deanes in times past how much they differed from ours now 96. Disciplyne and gouernment of the church â—â—â— matters of fayth and saluation 26 Discipline standeth in 3. principall partes 183. Dyonisius Areopagita no archb but bish 91. M. doctors Dyonisius a counterfait 188 E  Elders in euery congregation in the Apostles times 173. c Elders necessary in euery churche of the causes of their office 175. c. Elders in euery church alwayes necessary but especially in the time of peace vnder a christen magistrate 178. c. Eldership was kept in the church vnder christian Emperors in the time of peace 182. Eldership fel out of the church through slouthfulnes ambition of the Doctors 182. Election of the ministers ought to bee by the church 44. c Pretended differences to alter the manner of election of the mynisters vsed in the primatiue church answered 49. c Election and ordination differ 58. c Euangelists no ordinary ministers 63. c. Excommunication doth not belong to one maÌ„ but vnto the church and especially to the minister and elders therof 184. c. F  Standing lawes of fasting brought in first by the hereticke Montanus 30. Augustines and Ambroses corrupt iudgement of fasting 30. G  We haue more certaine direction by the gospel in the whole seruice of God then the Iewes had by the lawe 35. c. Greater seuerity ought to be vsed against sins and especially against idolatry vnder the gospel then vnder the law 42. c There ought to be no more standing at the reading of the gospell theÌ„ at the reading of other scriptures 203 Churche Gouernment compounded of all the good formes of gouernment 51. H  The churches authoritye in makyng of Holy dayes 151. c Of the Apostles and saints dayes 152. c. Of homilyes reading in the church 81. 196. c I.  Iames no archbyshop but a byshop by Eusebius iudgement 91. There ought to be no more curtesy at the name of Iesus then at the other names of God. 203. M  Abuses in the celebration of maryage 196. c. Metropolitane byshop what that the name implieth no supertoritye 93. Metropolitanes very pore 108. 94. Ministers lordship one ouer an other eyther in office or name forbidden 22. c In what sorte and howe farre ministers are superiors one ouer another 109. c The cause of want of ministers with vs. 40. c. Ministers reuolting to idolatrye oughte not to be receiued againe to the ministery 40. Ministers may not exercise ciuill offices 206. O  Officials iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Ordination and election differ 58. c. Receiue the holy ghost an vnlawfull speache of the B. in ordaining ministers 62. c. P  Parishes not deuided by Denis the Monke but by the word of God. 69. Prayers not only in matter but also in forme ought to belike the prayers of the scripture 138 Particulare faultes in oure forme of Common prayer 136. c The name of Priest cannot agree vnto the minister of the gospell 198. Prophet no ordinary minister 63. c R  Reading is not preaching 160 Reading preaching the word compared 159 Residence or abiding in one certain place required of al ordinary ecclesiastical ministeries 60 Residence continuall and necessary of the minister in hys church 65. c S  Sacramentes oughte to be ministred after the word is preached 157. Sacramentes vnlawfully ministred in priuate houses 28. 142. c Scripture containing the direction of al things pertaining to the churche and of whatsoeuer things can fall into any part of mans life 26 Scriptures Canonicall ought only to be red in the church 196. c Singing of Psalmes in the church side by side corrupt 203. T  Theodoret a pore Metropolitane 115. Timotheus and Titus by the iudgement of the Scholiaste byshops 91. but in deede Euangelists 65 Aug. iudgement of traditions very corrupt 31 VV  Widowes in the churche to helpe the sicke and impotent in it 191 Women may not minister baptisme and howe this corruption came into the church 143. c Womens churching corrupt 150 ⧠To the Church of England and ALL THOSE THAT LOVE THE TRVETH IN IT T. C. wisheth mercy and peace from God our father and from our Lord Iesus Christ AS our men do more willingly go to warfare and fyght with greater courage agaynst straungers then agaynst theyr countreymen so it is with me in thys spirituall warfare For I would haue wyshed that thys controuersy had bene with the Papystes or with other if any can be more pestylent and professed ennemyes of the church for that should haue bene les griefe to wryte and more conuement to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an ennemy doth kyndle the desire of fyghting and stirreth vp the care of preparing the furniture for the warre So I can not tell how it commeth to passe that the name of a brother staketh that courage and abateth that carefulnes which should be bestowed in desence of the truth But seeing the truth ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lord myght lay it to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so ready as I ought to haue bene to publyshe the truth he myght more iustly condemne me if being oppugned and slaundered by others I should not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habylitie defend it and delyuer it from the euill report that some endeuor to bring vpon it And as vnto other partes of the gospell so sone as the Lord openeth a dore for them to enter in there is for the most part great resistance so in thys part concerning the gouernment and dyscipline of the church which is the order which God hath left as well to make the doctryne
this that the church may ordaine certaine thyngs according to the word of God. But if this epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the boke of Common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as I can not vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniurie whych go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them which we can neither heare nor see being kept close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouerty and nakednes of it being faine to ransake rifie vp euery darke corner to finde some thing to couer it with Therefore it were good before you toke any benefite of them to let thē come forth and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and ful out For now you geue men occasion to thinke that there are some other things in their Epistles whych you would be lothe the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is no man that fayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the church where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no mā seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hath left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other thyngs to vse that whych shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the church and constrined by the Prince And whereas you haue euer hitherto geuen the ordering of these thyngs to the churche howe come you nowe to ascribe it to the Bishops you meane I am sure the Bishops as we call Bishops heere in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the papists vnwares which when they haue spoken many things of the churche magnifically at the last they bring it nowe to the Doctors of the church nowe to byshops As forme although I doute not but there be many good men of the Byshoppes and very learned also and therfore very meete to be admitted into that consultation wherin it shal be cōsidered what things are good in the church yet in respect of that office and calling of a bishop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister pastor of the churche hath more interest and right in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any bishop or archbishop in the realme for as muche as he hath an ordinarie calling of God function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how thys authoritie pertaining to the whole church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certaine number that confusion may be auoyded and wyth the consent also of the churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery churche and of the communion and societie or participation and entercommuning of the churches togither by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Answere till the Admonition from the beginning of the 30. page VNto the places of Deuteronomic whych proue that nothyng oughte to be done in the churche but that whych God commaundeth and that nothyng should be added nor diminished First you answere that that was a precept geuen to the Iewes for that time whych had all things euen the least prescribed vnto them I see it is true whych is sayd that one absurditie graūted a hundred follow For to make good that things ought to be done besides the scripture and worde of God you are driuen to runne into parte of the error of the Manichees whych say that the olde Testament pertaineth not vnto vs nor bindeth not vs For what is it else then to say that these two places serued for the Iewes time and vnder the lawe For surely if these two places agree not vnto vs in time of the gospell I knowe none in all the olde Testament whych doe agree and I praye you what is heere sayde whych S. Iohn in the * Apocalipse saythe not where he shutteth vp the newe Testament in thys sorte I protest vnto euery mā whych heareth the prophecie of thys boke that whosoeuer addeth any thing to it the Lorde shall adde vnto him the plagues whych are wrytten in it and whosoeuer taketh away any thing from it the Lord shall take away his portion out of the boke of life and out of the things that are wrytten in it which admonition if you say pertaineth to that boke of the Apocalipse only yet you must remember that the same may be as truely sayd of any other boke of the scripture Then you are driuen to saye that the Iewes vnder the lawe had a more certaine direction and consequently a readyer waye then we haue in the time of the gospell of the whych time the Prophet sayeth that then a man shoulde not teache his neighbor they shal be so taught of God as if he should say that they that liue vnder the gospel should be all in comparison of that whych were vnder the lawe Doctors And Esay sayth that in the dayes of the gospell the people shall not stande in the outward courtes but he will bring them into the sanctuarie that is to say that they shoulde be all for their knowledge as learned as the Leuites and Priestes whych only had entraunce into it Now if the Iewes had precepts of euery the least action whych told them precisely how they should walke how is not their case in that poynt better then oures whych because we haue in many things but generall rules are to seeke oftentimes what is the will of God whych we should follow But let vs examine their lawes and compare them with oures in the matters pertaining to the church for whereas the question is of the gouernment of the church it is very impertinent that you speake of the iudicialies as though you had not yet learned to distinguishe betweene the Church and common wealth To the ordering and gouerning of the church they had only the moral and ceremoniall law we haue the same morall that they had what speciall direction therfore they enioy by the benefite of that we haue We haue no ceremonies but two the ceremonies or sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper we haue as certaine a direction to celebrate them as they had to celebrate their ceremonies and fewer and les difficulties can rise of oures then of theirs and we haue more plaine and expres doctrine to decide our cōtrouersies then they had for theirs What houre had they for their ordinarie and daily sacrifices was it not left to the order of the church what places were apointed in their seuerall dwellings to heare the woorde of God preached continually when they came not to Ierusalem the word was commaunded to be preached but no mention made what
of the Acces sheweth that S. Peter would not take vpon him to present two as sitte for the place which was voyde but sayth they dyd present or sette vp whereby appeareth that the examynation of their habilitie was committed to manye The same appeareth also in the sixte of the Actes when as the Apostles wil the church wherin there were so excellent personages to looke out seuen full of the holy ghost and wisdome c. they doe not there permit the dyscerning of their wisdome and other giftes to one but to many Secondarely I cannot commend it for that that one man is the Archdeacon which must examyne the pastors and iudge of their sufficiencie For what is the Archdeacon is he not a Deacon for he being the cheefe Deacon must needes be also a Deacon hym selfe And therfore although the cheefe deacon yet inferioure to any of the pastoures and the * giftes which are required in hym inferioure to those which are required in the pastoure And to make him iudge of the aptnesse ablenesse of the pastoure is to make the inferioure in giftes iudge of the superioure he that hath by hys calling lesse giftes iudge of his which hath by his calling greater giftes which is nothing else then to appoynt him that hath but one eye to ouersee hys sight that hath two Thirdly I mistyke the booke because it permitteth that the Bishop may admit the minister vpon the credite and report of the Archdeacon vpon his examination if there be no oppositiō of the people which appeareth by these words in the booke whereas to the Archdeacon saying thus Reuerend father in god I present vnto you these persons to be made priestes c. The Byshop answereth ¶ Take heede that the persons whome you present vnto vs be apt and meete for their godly conuersacion to exercise their ministerie duely to the honour of God and edifying of his church And thereupon I thinke it commeth that the Archdeacon is called the eye of the Byshop But why doth not he himselfe take heede vnto it with what conscience can he admit a Minister of whose fitnesse he knoweth not but vpon the credit of an other although he were otherwise very fitte where can he haue that full perswasion that he doth well vpon the report of others when the report of his life and learning is made but of one And therefore * S. Paul ordayned that the same should be the ordeyners and the examyners and not to hang vpon the fayth or report of an other man in thinges that are so waightie and whereof he may him selfe take notice Fourthly for that albeit the church is demaunded whether it haue any thing to obiect yet that church whereof he is to be pastor which it skilleth especially that he be fitte is not demaunded and which would because it standeth them vpon inquire dyligently of hym Agayne they are demaunded which can obiect nothing of his insufficiencie when for the most part they neuer see nor heard of before as one that came of one day vnto the towne and goeth away the next Further they haue no reasonable space geuen them wherein they may inquire or hearken out of hys honest conuersation and haue some experyence of hys soundnesse in teaching and discretion and iudgement to rule hys flocke But if as sone as euer it be sayde to those that are straungers that they should obiect agaynst them no mā stand forth to obiect any thing forthwith he is made a mynister And these are those things wherein I thinke the booke of ordering Mynisters faultie touching the tryall and examynation of the mynisters whiche selfe same thinges are lykewyse of the tryall of the Deacon And so you see that besydes the faultes of those that execute the lawe that there bee faultes in the lawes themselues and therefore the cause is truely assygned althoughe you see it not And what meane you still to vse thys fyghting wyth your owne shadow for where are the wordes or what be they that condemne all the Ministers for some that say all the Ministers are vnlawfully admitted for some or that there is none good because some are badde If there be no such wordes as cary with them any suche sense then you do wrong to your brethren If there be wordes that declare the cleane contrary then all men see what you be which althoughe you often faulte in yet I am lothe so often to name and charge you wyth it When it is sayd that learned and vnlearned are receyued it is euydent that they condemne not all The Lord blesse and encrease an hundreth folde the godly wise learned graue ministers of thys churche And because these wordes seeme to rocke vs a sleepe and to bring vs into forgetfulnesse of the great ruines desolations of the Churche I muste tell you that two thousande able and suffycient mynisters which preache and feede dyligently and carefully the flocke of Christ were hard to be founde in thys Churche which haue bene notwithstanding founde in the Church of Fraunce by the estimation of those which know the estate euen vnder the tyme of the crosse where there were no such helpes of Magistrates and appoynted stypendes as God be praysed we haue And agayne you are to be put in mynde that a great number of those were bredde in king Edwardes dayes so that I feare me a man neede no great Arithmatike to counte the numbers of such able ministers as the late yeares haue brought forth And yet I am well assured that if the ministerie were reformed and worthy men were sought for there are great nombers of zelous and learned men that would lay their handes to serue thys kynde of building by the ministerie For besydes numbers that the Vniuersities would yelde which sigh for the repayring of the decayes of the church to helpe forwarde so great a worke the Innes of Courte and other the gentrie of the realme Galene and Iustinian would bryng theyr tenthes and as it were pay their shot in this reckening It is not denied but the testimonie that a noble man which professeth the truth doth geue ought to be weighed accordyng to hys degree place which he hath in the common wealth but where you thinke that the testimonie of one wise man learned and godly is sufficient warrant to proceede to an election of a Minister you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paul vsed who when he admytted Tymothe into hys company to be a companyon in hys iourney to cutte of all occasion of euill speche receyued hym not * but vpon commendation of the brethren both in Lystra and I conyum You know they ment by the basest of the people such as gaue but one leape out of the shoppe into the Church as sodenly are chaunged out of a seruing mans coate into a mynisters cloke making for the most part the ministerie their last refuge c. And seeing that besydes the words be playne the dayly
that nothing in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done ought to driue that church from that election to an other whych is conuenient Nowe I will examine the reasons which you adde to proue that although in times past the church chused their ministers yet nowe it must be otherwise To the fyrst difference in the. 44. page YOu say it was in the Apostles times vnder the crosse and therfore few and so might easely knowe one an other who were fitte for the ministerie But you forget your selfe maruellously For in the Apostles times the churche I meane visible and sensible for else how could it be persecuted was sowne not only through out all Asia whych is the greatest part of the world but through a great part of Affrica and no small portion of Europe and nowe it is shut in a small corner of Europe being altogither banished out of Asia and Affrica And therfore there are not the tithe nowe of those that professed the gospell then and what a conclusion is thys the churches were few in numbre because they were vnder the crosse For to let passe bothe other scriptures and stories ecclesiastical haue you forgotten that whych is sayd in Exodus that the more the children of Israell were pressed and persecuted the more they multiplied Thē you say they kepte togither and mette often and so knowing one another were best able to iudge one of an other But heerein you speake as one that hathe small experience of persecuted churches for in the time of persecution the christians that were in one great citie were faine to gather them selues oute of all the corners and from all the endes of the Citie to one place being not able to deuide them selues into many parishes bothe for other considerations and because they were not able to maintaine many ministers and elders and Deacons wherby it may be vnderstande that by all likelyhode in one great citye they had but one congregation and therfore that must needes be scattered heere and there and so could not haue the commoditye eyther of often meeting or of knowing one an other so well as where suche a citie is deuided into many churches Those that knowe the estate of Fraunce in the time of persecution do well vnderstand that euery church almost was gathered of townes whereof some were sixe miles some seuen some more from the place of meeting and keeping their congregations And therefore coulde not meete so often nor knowe one an other so well as we by the grace of God may do whych meete oftner and in les number then they doe To the second difference To your seconde difference I answere that in deede there be hipocrites in our churches now and so were there then but moe nowe than then I graunte you that also but there is no great daunger in them as touching the election of the minister or byshop for that in suche open and publike actions that come into the eyes of all men there is no good man will doe so holily as they will doe although it be fainedly The hurt that they do is in closer and secreater matters But where you say oure churches are full of drunkardes and whoremongers besides that you vtter or euer you be aware howe euill succes the preaching of the gospell hath had heere for want of discipline and good ecclesiasticall gouernment you bewray a great ignoraunce For although there be hipocrites whych beare the face of godly men in the churche whose wickednes is onlye knowne to God and therfore can not be discouered by men yet in the churches of Christe there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers at least whych are knowne For either vpon admonition of the churche they repent and so are neyther drunkardes nor whoremongers or else they are cutte of by excommunication if they continue stubborne in their sinnes and so are none of the churche and therefore haue nothing to do in the election of the minister of the church And me thincketh you shuld not haue ben ignorāt of this that although there be * tares in the floure of the church whych are like the wheat therfore being groūd easely mete togither in the lofe yet there are no acornes whych are bread for swine And although there be * goates amongst the flocke of the churche because they haue some likelyhode wyth the sheepe feeding as they doe geuing milke as they doe yet in the church of Christe there are no swine nor hogges It pertaineth to God only to seuere the tares from the wheate and the goates from the sheepe but the churches can discerne betweene wheat and acornes betweene swine and sheepe To the thirde in the. 44. page If they had knowledge then it was because they were taughte and that they are ignorant nowe it is because they haue no good ministers to teach them and if the churches should chuse their ministers I am sure they coulde not chuse worse then for the moste parte they haue nowe being thrust vpon them To the fourth in 45. page I see that when a man is out of hys way the further he goeth the worse Before you placed in the church whoremongers and drunkards as filthy swine in the Lordes courtes nowe you bring in Papistes and Idolaters and Atheistes whych are not only filthy but also poysoned and venoumed beastes I am not ignorant of that distinction whych sayth that there be in the churche whych are not of the church and those are hypocrites as is before sayd but I woulde gladly learne of you what scripture there is to proue that Idolaters and Papistes and Atheistes are in the church when S. Paule calleth all suche wythout the churche and wyth whome the churche had nothing to doe nor they with the church You might as well haue placed in the church Wolues Tigres Lions and Beares that is Tirantes and persecutors For those ye speake of are in the iudgement of men and of the church as well shut out of it as they in the eye of the Lord they may in time be of the church and so may and are sometimes the persecutors themselues so it appeareth that the election of the church is not nor ought not to be hindered by those that haue nothing to do with it But now I heare you aske me what then shal become of the Papists and Atheists if you will not haue them be of the church I answer that they may be of in the common wealth whych neither may nor can be of nor in the churche And therfore the churche hauing nothing to doe wyth suche the magistrate ought to see that they ioyne to heare the sermons in the place where they are made whether it be in those parishes where there is a church and so preaching or where else he shall thinke best and cause them to be examined howe they profite and if they profite not to punishe them as their contempt groweth so to encrease the punishmēt vntill suche times as
they declare manifest tokens of vnrepentantnes and then as rotten members that doe not onlye no good nor seruice in the bodye but also corrupt and infect others cut them off And if they do profit in hearing then to be adioyned vnto that church whych is next the place of their dwelling To the fifte in the. 45. page If there be no churches established because there are no christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established And it is absurd to say that the ministers nowe wyth the helpe of the magistrate can laye surer foundations of the church or build more cunningly or substancially then the Apostles could whych were the master builders of the church of god And as for the consummation of the body of the church and the beautie of it seeing it consisteth in Iesus Christe whych is the heade that is alwayes ioyned vnseperably in all times of the crosse and not the crosse wyth his body whych is the church I can not see why the churches vnder persecution should not be established hauing bothe the foundation and the nether most partes as also the toppe and hyest parte of the churche as well as those whych haue a christian magistrate If in deede the magistrate whom God hath sanctified to be a nurse vnto his churche were also the head of the same then the church could not be established wythout the magistrate but we learne that although the godly magistrate be the head of the common wealth and a great ornament vnto the church yet he is but a member of the same The churche maye be established wythoute the magistrate and so that all the world and all the Deuilles of hell can not shake it but it can not be in quiet in peace and in outwarde suretie wythout a godly magistrate And therefore the churche in that respecte and suche like praiseth God and prayeth for the magistrate by the whych it enioyeth so singulare benefites Therevppon you conclude that the church was then populare whych is as vntrue as the former parte For the churche is gouerned wyth that kinde of gouernment whych the Philosophers that wryte of the best common wealthes affirme to be the best For in respecte of Christe the heade it is a Monarchie and in respecte of the auncientes and pastoures that gouerne in common and wyth like authoritie amongste them selues it is an Aristocratie or the rule of the best men and in respecte that the people are not secluded but haue their interest in churche matters it is a Democratie or a populare estate An image whereof appeareth also in the pollicye of thys Realme for as in respecte of the Queene her maiestie it is a Monarchie so in respecte of the moste honourable Counsell it is an Aristocratie and hauing regard to the Parliament whych is assembled of al estates it is a Democratie But you should haue shewed howe this difference of hauing a christian magistrate hauing none ought to bryng in a diuersity in the choise of the pastoure by their churche It were not harde if one woulde spende hys time so vnprofitably to finde oute a hundred differences betweene a persecuted church and that whych is in peace but seeing you can shewe me no reason why the church may not chuse her minister as well vnder a godly magistrate as vnder a tyrante I will shewe you howe that if it were lawfull to breake the order of God it were meeter in the time of persecution that the election shoulde be in some other discreate and learned persons hands to be made without the consent of the churche then in that time when there is a godly magistrate and that it is then most conuenient that he should be chosen by the church In the time of persecution a churche chuseth an vnlearned minister or one that is wicked in life howsoeuer it be he is vnfit the churches rounde about by their ministers or elders admonishe this church of her fault and moue to correct it the church will by no meanes be admonished what can nowe the other churches do in the time of persecution if they excommunicate the whole churche it is a hard matter yet if they may do that there is all they can do the euil is not remedied whych may be easely taken awaye where there is a godly magistrate and the churche as is before sayde compelled to a better choyse so you see that there are inconueniences in the chusing of the pastor and other the gouernors of the churche by the churche in the time of persecution whych are not in the time of peace vnder a christian magistrate Now I wil shew you which thinke that the consent of the church in their minister can not stand with the time of a christian magistrate that it hathe not only stode but hath bene cōfirmed in their times and by them In codice Iustiani it is thus wrytten following the doctrine of the holy Apostles c. we ordaine that as often as it shall fall out that the ministers place shall be voyde in any citie that voyces be geuen of the inhabiters of that city that he of three which for their right faith holines of life and other good things are most approued should be chosen to the Byshoprike whych is the moste meete of them Also Carolus Magnus whych was the first Germaine Emperoure in 63. distinct sacrorum canonum sayth being not ignorante of the holy Canons that the holy churche in the name of God should vse her honoure the freelyer we assent vnto the Ecclesiasticall order that the byshops be chosen by election of the cleargye and people according to the statutes of the canons of that diocesse In the. 63. distinction it appeareth that Ludouicus Carolus hys sonne decreed that he should be bishop of Rome whom all the people of Rome should cōsent to chuse Platina also in the life of pope Adrian 2. writeth that Ludouike the seconde by hys letters commaunded the Romaines that they shoulde chuse their owne bishop not loking for other mennes voyces whych being straūgers could not so well tell what was done in the common weale where they were straungers and that it appertained to the Citizens The same Platina witnesseth in the life of Pope Leo the. 8. that whē the people of Rome were earnest with the Emperoure Otho the first that he wold take awaye one Pope Iohn that liued very licentiously and riotously and place an other the same Emperoure answeared that it pertained to the cleargye and people to chuse one and willed them that they shoulde chuse and he woulde approue it and when they had chosen Leo and after put hym out wythout cause and chose one Pope Benet he compelled them to take Leo agayne Whereby appeareth that in those estates where Magistrates were Christian and where the estate was moste of all Monarchicall that is subiecte to ones gouernment that thys vse of the Churche remained and was confirmed by the Emperours and also when the churche put
For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betwene the Apostles times and oures Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bene proued that there was none that tooke vppon hym the ministerie in the churche but by lawfull calling what is thys but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cottage of wode straw and stubble to haue some estymation which could haue none the other standing For in effecte so you doe when to vpholde a corrupte vse that came in by the tyrannie of the pope you goe about to discredite the orders and institutions which were vsed in the Apostles times and that with such manyfest vntruthes To the next section in the. 45. page Musculus also c. THe place is too common which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by hym selfe in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers which were brought in doubt of their calling because they were not chosen by their churches speaking of the vse of the church in chusing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly cōfessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consent of the people and ordayned and confirmed of the semores Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the churche and that thrusting the pastor vpon the church not being chosen of it doth agree to a church that is not free but subiect to bondage Fourthly that thys fourme of choise by the church maketh much bothe to that that the minister may gouerne hys flocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeelde them selues to be eastyer ruled then when one commeth agaynst their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayeth that they are altogether certayne and such as can not be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the churche and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which shoulde after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more clearely appeare that hys iudgement is nothing lesse then to confirme thys election he setteth downe their election in Bernland which he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one man but all the ministers in the citie of Berne doe chuse a pastor when there is any place voyde Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they fynde him meete he is confirmed of the Senate which standeth of some number of the people and by the most part of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the minister by the people is lawfull and Apostolike and confessed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the church and seruitude and cary a note and marke of corruption of religion Last of all that he goeth about to defende the election vsed in the churches where he was minister by this that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may bee that we should bring the church into bondage or take away that order wherby both the mynister may be better assured of hys calling and the people may the willinglyer submit them selues vnto their pastoures and gouernoures or what cause to depart from the Apostolike forme of the choise of the pastor being lawfull I confesse I know not and would be glad to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the christian magistrate to say that these things can not be had vnder hym as you vnder maister Muscuius name doe affirme is to doe great iniurie vnto the office of the magistrate which abridgeth not the liberty of the churche but defendeth it dimmisheth not the pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishing the ordinary callings only which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary withdraweth not the obediēce of the people from the pastor but vrgeth it where it is not constrayneth it wher it is not volūtary And seeing that also Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of relygion and disordered states what greater dishonoure can there be done vnto the holye institution of God in the ciuile gouernoure then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be where there is a christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure religion vnder him when as in deede it may be easely vnder him pure which can hardly and with great daunger be pure without him And when as it is sayd that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister we doe not denye the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill magistrate and the disanulling of them if the church in chusing and the ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the church of chusing a more conuenient man. So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons this enforced election without the consent of the people is but corrupt and so ought not to be in the churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken agaynst and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof To the next section in the. 46. page NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time But you haue forgotten your selfe which sayde a little before that this election by the church was not only in the Apostles times but also in the tyme of Cyprian now you say otherwise And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate how commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no such Magistrates that S. Paule would haue the election by one man and not by the church Besydes that if this be S. Paule hys commaundement that the byshop should only chuse the minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times for this is a flarte commaundement Thus you see you throwe downe with one
controuersy left in this poynt what is a flocke S. Paule defineth it plainly when he sayeth appoynte pastors or elders or byshops for these woordes are indifferently vsed through not euery shire or prouince or realme but through euery city or town And least that any man should here take occasion to conclude that then it is lawfull for one manne to be bishoppe or pastor of a whole Citie suche as London or Yorke c. S. Luke in the Actes dothe declare the meaning of this place where he sayth that they appoynted elders throughoute euery congregation so that if the citie or towne be great and the professors of the gospell in it be more then wil make conueniently a congregation then there muste be by the rule of God more pastors and byshops Whervpon it appeareth that bothe no pastor or byshoppe ought to be made without there be a flocke as it were a voyde place for him and that a flocke is not a realme or prouince or dioces as we now call a dioces but so many as may conueniently meete in one assembly or congregation And that thys is the meaning of S. Paule it appeareth by the practise of the Churches from time to time whych haue both decreed against and found fault wyth these wandering and rouing ministeries The great councell of * Calcedon decreed that no elder or deacon or anye other in the ecclesiasticall order shoulde be ordained apolelymenos that is losely and as it were let goe at randone whether he him selfe listeth whych he also interpreateth by and by more plainly when he addeth that he should not be ordained Eime idicos en ecclesia poleos e comes that is vnies it be specially in a congregation of some citie or towne And in the councell of Vrban as Gratian reporteth distinction 70. it was decreed that the ordination that was made without any title should be void and what that meaneth is shewed by and by when it is sayd in what church any is intitled there let hym alwayes remaine And thys is also S. Ierome hys complainte in that men were ordained vnto the ministerie when they were chosen by no churche and so went rounde aboute hauing no certaine place And therefore thys that none ought to preache onles he haue some pastoral charge ought not to haue ben so strange a thing vnto you as you make it if eyther the scriptures or the councels or the ancient fathers had bene so well knowen vnto you as eyther your name requireth or you take vpon you whych dare so boldly pronoūce that there can be shewed no text of scripture for the matter But you aske what place Paule Barnabas had apoynted them What meane you therby to conclude that because Paul Barnabas the apostles had no place appoynted them therfore a pastor or bishop shuld not when this is one difference betwene the apostle and bishop that the one hath no certaine place appoynted and the other hath But I thinke I smel out your meaning which is that we may make apostles also at these dayes and that that function is not yet ceased for otherwise your reason is nothing worthe Likewise also you aske of Phillip whych was an euangelist And so you thinke y these running ministers are lawfull because they are Apostles and Euangelists against whych I shall haue occasion to speake shortly after in the. 50. page But if a man be able to liue of himselfe and minde not to be burdensome to the church it seemeth vnreasonable vnto you that he may not go about and preach throughout all churches Did you neuer read any learned disputations and that of learned wryters in our dayes about this question whether although it be lawful it be expedient that a man being able and willing to liue of himselfe ought to take wages of the church for inconueniences whych might ensue of taking nothing I do but aske you the question because you make so great a wonder at this for I wil not take vpon me heere the defence of it because I will not multiply questions And whye I may you maye not that man that is so able and will be content to liue of him selfe why I say may not he teache and be the pastor of some churche Doe you thincke that for his forbearing the wages of the Churche he may breake the lawes and orders that God hath established for the rest contained in those pages touching the ordaining of ministers or byshops I haue before spoken at large To the. 49. page OEcumenius and Chrysostome saye that by Elders he meaneth Bishops not thereby to seuer those that had the gouernement of the churche togither wyth the pastor minister of the word which were called ancients as you seeme to meane but to put distinction betweene those whych are elders by age elders by office besides y it is before alleaged y it may be y the pastor or byshop did in the name of all the elders lay on his hands vpon hym that was ordained And lastly you know and can not denye that s Paule in one or two places confoundeth the Bishop and the Elder To say that the byshop may as wel say receiue the holy ghost as to say the words vsed in the supper or to say y the sinnes of those whych to beleue are forgiuen is dis dia pason as farre as Yorke London For there are commaundements to the ministers to do that which they do and heere is none and there the minister doth not commaund that the breaue be the body of Christ but he sayth that it is Neither dothe he commaund y sinnes should be forgiuen but pronounceth in the behalfe of God that they are forgeuē It is not vnlawfull also that he with the congregation should make a prayer for the assistance or encrease of God his gifts vpon him that is ordained but to commaund that he should receiue it is meerely vnlawfull For these words receiue the holy ghost are the imperatiue moode and do expresly signifie a commaundement And so the bishop may as well say to the sea when it rageth and swelleth peace be quiet as to say receiue the holy ghost And if you thinke it so good reason to vse this in the making of ministers because you vse the wordes of our sauior Christ why may not you as wel blow vpon them as he did for seeing that our sauior Christ confirmed his word there with a sacrament or outward signe and you thinke you must therfore do it because he did it you are muche to blame to leaue out the outward signe or sacrament of breath whereby the faith of hym whych is ordained might be the more assured of such gifts and graces as are requisite in his function I heape not vp heere the iudgement of the wryters you knowe I thinke it myght casely be done if I liked to follow that way Answere to the. 50. and. 51. pages THys passeth all the diuinitie that euer I
red that there are now Apostles and Euangelistes and Prophetes You shall assuredly doe maruelles if you proue that as you say you will if any denye it I denye it proue you it And that you may haue some thing to doe more then peraduenture you thoughte of when you wrote these words I will shew you my reasons why I thinke there ought to be none nor can be none vnles they haue wonderfull and extraordinarie callings It must first be vnderstanded that the signification of thys worde Apostle when it is properly taken extendeth it selfe not only to all the ministers of God being sent of God but to the ambassadoure of any Prince or Noble man or that is sent of any publike authoritie and is vsed of the scripture by the trope of Synechdoche for the twelue that oure sauior Christ appoynted to go throughout all the world to preache the gospell vnto the whych number was added S. Paule and as some thinke Barnabas whych are seuered from all other ministers of the gospell by these notes First that they were immediately called of God as s. Paule to the Galathians proueth him selfe to be an apostle because he was not appoynted by men Then that they sawe Christe whych argument S. Paule vseth Am I not an Apostle haue I not seene Christe Thirdly that these had the fielde of the whole worlde to Till where as other are restrained more perticularly as to a certen ploughe lande wherein they shoulde occupye them selues Wherevppon it followeth that as we conclude against the Pope truely that he can be no successor of the Apostles not only because he neyther reacheth nor dothe as they did but because the Apostles haue no successors neither any can succeede into the office of an Apostle so maye we likewise conclude against those that would haue the Apostles nowe adayes that there can be none because there is none vnto whome all these three notes doe agree as that he is bothe sent of God immediately or that he hath seene Christ or that he is sent into all the world And althoughe some Ecclesiasticall wryters do call sometimes good ministers successors of the Apostles yet that is to be vnderstanded because they propound the same doctrine y they did not because they succeded into the same kinde of function whych they could not doe S. Paule doth vse this word Apostle sometimes in hys proper and natiue signification for hym that is publikely sent from any to other as when he speaketh of the brethren that were ioyned wyth Titus whych were sent by the churches wyth reliefe to the pore church in Ierusalem and Iewrie and where he calleth Epaphroditus an Apostle But that is wyth addition and not simply as in the first place he calleth the brethren the apostles of the Churches that is not the apostles of all Churches or sent to all churches but the apostles whych certaine churches sent with the reliefe to other certaine churches and Epaphroditus he calleth not an apostle simply but the apostle of the Philippians that is whych the Philippians sent wyth reliefe to Paule being in prison at Rome as it appeareth in the same Epistle And as for Andronicus and Iunius whych are by you recited belyke to proue that we may haue more apostles because it is sayd of S. Paule that they were famous and notable amongst the apostles it cannot be proued by any thing I see there whether they had any function Ecclesiasticall or no. For S. Paule calleth them hys kinneffolke and fellowe prisonners and dothe not say that they were his fellowe labourers and a man may be well notable and famous amongst the apostles and well knowne vnto them whych is no apostle And if the apostles would haue had this order of the apostles to continue in the church there is no doubt but that they would haue chosen one into Iames hys roume when he was slaine as they did when they supplied the place of Iudas by chusing Mathias and so euer as they had died the other would haue put other in their places So it appeareth that thys function of the apostles is ceased You aske farther that if a man should not preach before he haue a pastoral charge what they will answere vnto Phillip and Epaphroditus wherby your meaning is belike that although they be no pastors yet they may be euangelists whych goe about the countrey heere and there â–ª But this office is ceased in the church as the apostles is sauing that sometime the Lord doth raise vp some extraordinarily for the building vp of the churches whych are falne downe pulled vp by the foundations as I haue shewed somewhat before And that it is ceased it may appeare by these reasons First for because all those that the scripture calleth precisely Euangelists which are only Phillip and Timothe had their callings confirmed by miracle and so it is like that Titus and Syluanus and Apollos and if there were any other had their vocations after the same manner confirmed but there is no such miraculous confirmation nowe therfore there is no suche vocation For allbeit those that God hathe raised vp in those darke times and ouerthrowes of the church wherof meÌ„tion is made before as M. Luther c. had not their â—allings alwayes confirmed by direct and manifest miracles of hearing or raising vp from the deade yet the maruellous succes and blessing that the Lord gaue vnto their labors were sufficient seales vnto all men that althoughe they had no ordinarie calling nor by men yet they were sent of God That I speake nothing of the miraculous deliuerances that some of them had out of dangers by warning geuen of pearils by those whych were neuer seene before nor after and by such like wonderfull meanes as are to be seene in stories Nowe againe if there should be any Euangelist who should ordaine him you will say the Bishop But I say that cannot be that the greater shoulde be ordained of the les For the Euangeliste is a higher degree in the churche then is the byshop or pastor And if he be so whye hathe he not hys estimation heere in the Churche aboue the Byshop or Archbyshop eyther for the Archbyshop is but a Byshop or whye dothe not he ordaine Byshoppes as Timothe and Titus did whych were Euangelistes being one poynte of their office as * Eusebius declareth Againe if there be in euery churche a pastor as S. Paule commaundeth what should the Euangelists do for either that pastor doth his duetie and then the Euangelist is superfluous or if he do it not then he is no lawfull pastor and so ought he to be put out an other to be put in hys stead And where the pastor doing hys duety can not suffice there the scripture hath geuen him an ayde of the doctor which for because his office consisteth in teaching doctrine to thys ende y the pastor mighte not be driuen to spende so muche time in propounding the
doctrine but might haue the more time to employ in exhorting and dehorting applying of the doctrine to the times and places and persons it is manifest that he also is tied to a certaine church For howe could he be an aide vnto the pastor to whose helpe he is geuen onles he were in the same churche where the pastor is And that the Euangelistes office hath bene so taken as a function that endured but for a time it maye appeare first by that whych Eusebius wryteth speaking of Pantenus for sayeth he there were vntill that time Euangelists c. whych was about the yeare of our Lord. 162. whereby he geueth to vnderstand that about that time they ceassed and that in his time there was none when notwithstanding there were Byshops or pastors elders and Deacons And Ambrose sayth that there be no Apostles but those whych Christ himselfe dyd appoynte whereby it appeareth that of all the Ecclesiasticall functions that preache the worde there are but the pastor and Doctor only left vnto vs and the same also restrained to particulare charges Now that I haue proued that there are no Euangelists Prophets or Apostles and that the ministeries of the worde whych remaine are limited vnto certaine places I will take that whych you graunte that is that the pastor or byshop ought to haue a speciall flocke And demaund of you wherfore he should haue it is it not to attend vpon it and can he attend vpon it onles he be resident and abiding vpon it but he can not be abiding vpon it if he go from place to place to preach where he thincketh necessary therfore being pastor or bishop of a congregation allotted vnto him he maye not goe from place to place to preache where he thinketh good muche les to haue a mastership of a colledge in one corner of the land a deanrie in an other and a prebend in the third and so be absent from his pastorall charge in such places where either he preacheth not or nedeth not to preach those places being otherwise furnished wythout him For thē how is this difference kept betweene the pastor other ministers that the one is tied to a place the other is not For if you say that it is in that he shall preach more at his flocke then at other places I answer that the Euangelists and Apostles did tary longer in one place then in another taught some congregations yeres when they did not other some monethes And therefore they say nothing whych alledge for the non residence of pastors that S. Paule called Timothe Titus from Ephesus and Crete For first they were Euangelists and no pastors thē they went not of their owne heads but called of the apostle whych was a cheefe gouernor of the churche And thirdly they went not but hauing other sufficient put in their place as it appeareth in their seuerall Epistles so that if that place make any thing it maketh not to proue the non residencie but rather whether a minister may be translated from one church to an other But I will neuer wearye my penne to confute those whome their owne consciences are to strong for and confuteth euery night when they go to bed for that were nothing else but to reason with the belly that hath no eares to heare or with the backe that hathe no eyes to see Those that thinke that they hauing charges of their owne yet may goe from place to place where they thinke it necessary and that it skilleth not where they preache so they preach must consider that if they thincke that God is the author of their placing in their flockes then that either their abode there is nedeful and expedient or else that God did not see well and clearely what was meete to be done in placing them ouer that congregation and appoynting that that congregation shoulde hang and depende vppon them for their nourishment and good gouernement And you see that if I wold folow those noble metaphores of watchman shephard whych the scripture vseth to expres the office of a minister with what a large field is opened vnto me For then I could shew you how that cities beseged and flockes in danger of the wolues are * watched continually night day And that there is no citye so sore and so continually besieged nor no flockes subiect to so manifold diseases at home or hurtfull and deuouring beastes abrode that wythout any truce or intermission as are the churches the shepheards and watchmen wherof are pastors or byshops But I wil leaue that to their considerations and will shew that the partes and dueties of the minister be suche and so many in hys owne flocke the if he were as wise as Salomon was as great in coūsel as Ioseph as wel learned as s Paul as actiue as Iosue whych fought so many battels in small space yet all were little enough or too little to performe to the full that whych his charge requireth of hym Of the pastors therefore is required not only the preaching of the word and ministring of the sacraments wherof the preaching of the word and ministring of the sacrament of baptisme ought to be continually and as oft as the church may conueniently assemble the other sacrament of the Lord his supper although not so continually for that the church shall hardly haue so much leifure from their necessary affaires of this life as that they may celebrate it as often as the other yet so often as that we remēber that too rare and seldome celebrating it argueth a minde too too muche forgetfull of the vnspeakeable benefite of our redemption and argueth also that we are farre behinde the primitiue church in zeale whych did celebrate it euery Saboth I say beside the preaching of the word and ministring of the sacraments there is required of him that he shoulde admonishe priuately and house by house those that are vnder hys charge Nowe tell me howe this can be done profitably wythoute a diligent marking and loking into their manners Howe can eyther publike preachings or priuate admonitions haue their effect and working onles the worde of God be applied according to the disposition or state of that people vnto whych it is preached and vndoubtedly heereof it commeth that the word of God is no more effectuall in this realme then it is for because it is preached hand ouer head wythout knowledge and vnderstanding the estate of the people For so often times the promises and glad tidings of the gospell of oure sauioure are preached vnto those that being before secure in their sinnes are after the hearing of the promises rocked into a deade sleepe of them and they that are ouerthrowne wyth the conscience of their sinne and confounded in them selues are by the sharpnesse of the lawe and hearing of the iudgement of God broken into peeces and driuen to desperation And so likewyse the people are taught sometimes howe to lead their
number of mens heartes yet which might much be helped by the bringing in of that custome agayne of burying the deade in some honest place out of the towne therto appoynted To the next sections in the. 52. and. 53. pages IF you shoulde begette and be a father of many bookes and all your children like their eldest brother you woulde without better aduise shake manye groundes of our religion For heere agayne you wyshe that all pastors were able to teache but that being vnpossible as the estate is nowe you are content with pastors or ministers that can doe nothing but reade You through out your whole booke make thys a maruellous good estate and alwayes turne the best side outwarde and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof to the ende they mighte be remedyed then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it and make it greater then it is in deede For as I haue shewed before the churche standeth not so muche in neede of youre reading ministers as you would make the worlde beleeue And althoughe it be a great deformitie and sore plage of the church which you heere speake of and confesse at vnwares yet you will let no man come neare to heale it There be some make a gayne by sores and sore legges and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene that they shoulde not heale I hope you do not of purpose keepe the churche in this estate but thys I dare say that the cheefe of your gaine and of your honour consisteth and is grounded in the ruines of the church and therefore I desire you to looke vnto it But what if the estate of the churche be such as you speake of that it will skarce yelde three preaching pastors and bishops in some diocesse may you therefore make reading ministers In deede if the Apostle had made this a counsell only and no commaundement that pastors of churches should be able to teache then your saying might haue bene borne But seeing that S. Paule hathe commaunded expressedly that he should bee able to teache and to conuince the gaynesayers I woulde learne of you gladly what necessitie there is whiche can cause a man to breake the morall law of God to bring in a tradytion of man You maye as well breake any other commaundement of God for necessyties sake as breake thys being comprehended in the first table And to say that these that can only read must be tolerated in the churche as ministers is to saye because you can haue no pastors in the churches you will haue idolles For so will I not doubt to call them although through ignoraunce of that which they do some may be good men But yet in respect of the place that they occupy they are idolles for they stande for that and make shew of that which they are not and admit you them as often as you will the Lord pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him which haue no knowledge But let vs heare your reason there muste bee reading in the churche therefore there must bee ministers whiche can doe nothing else Then we may reason thus to There must be breaking of bread and distributing of the cuppe in the church and pouring on water therefore whosoeuer is able to breake a loafe of bread or to lift a cup of wyne or to poure on water on the body of the childe may be made a minister And did you neuer reade that there were readers in the church when there were no reading ministers but of reading of the scriptures and prayers in the church there will be a fitter place to speake afterwarde where it shall be shewed how vniustly you surmise these thinges of them Touching Homilies shall be spoken more hereafter where further occasion is geuen I doe not vse to maintayne the places which are quoted althoughe they be truely alleaged for the causes which I haue before mentioned but yet I can not but speake of this place of S. Luke for feare of the daunger that may ensue For if thys be a good reason that the place of S. Luke may not be vsed to proue that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministerie because in the same place is made mention of curing of diseases which is but a temporall thing and followed the ministerie but for a tyme then the commaundement of S. Iames that the Elders of the Churche shoulde praye for those that are sicke is now no commaundement because putting on of handes and annoynting of them that they myghte recouer theyr healthe hathe no place and by thys meanes you will pull from vs many places of the new Testament as you dyd before of the olde What dealing is this to bring men into suspition of that which they neuer thought of as though there were any woorde that sounded to this that a man should put him selfe into the office of preaching without the approbation of those men to whome it doth pertayne Their complaynt is that those which are ordayned pastors and therefore to preach can not doe it without further licence As if a man should be charged to doe a thing forthwith and then he that chargeth hym bindeth him hande and foote that he can not doe it vnles he will lose hym The Byshoppes inhable hym to teache and poynte hym a place to teache in and yet they will not let hym teache vnlesse he haue a further licence If hee be an hereticke or schismatike or suspected of any suche thing why is he admitted or being admitted why is he suffered to be so much as a reader in the church And because you could not answere thys therefore you set vp a fansie of youres to confute And thus you fyght without an aduersary and you make triumphes where there is no victory They will say vnto you that not only vnder a godly Magistrate but not in the time of persecution any man ought to take vpon him any function in the church vnles he be thereunto called by men except he haue a wonderfull calling which is rare and must be diligently examyned by them which haue it least vnder pretence of the spirite of God whome they make author of their calling it fall out that it be but their own headlong affection that hath thrust them in so farre they are from the frensic of Anabaptistes whiche you by a confutation of that which they neuer affirmed would seeme to staine them with To the section beginning in the latter ende of the. 53. page vntill the middest of the 62. page THe Cappe the Surplice and Tippet are not the greatest matters wee striue for which notwithstanding hath bene informed to the churches beyond sea to the ende that the iudgements of some might be the eastyer had against vs Howbeit we thinke it an attire vnmeete for a minister of the gospel to weare and the Surplice especially more then the other two because suche hurtfull ceremonies are so muche more daungerous as they
to be retayned And that without these ministeries the Churche may be complete it appeareth by that which is in the Ephesians where it is sayde that Christe gaue some Apostles some Prophetes some Euangelistes some pastors and Doctors to the restoring of the sayntes vnto the worke of the ministerie vntill wee all come to the vnitie of fayth and of the knowledge of the sonne of God and vnto a perfect man. The learned wryters haue thus reasoned agaynste the Pope that for so muche as Apostles Prophetes c. are sufficient for the building of the churche therefore there ought to be no Pope The argument and necessitie of the conclusion is as strong agaynst the Archbishoppe and all one For by the same reason that the Pope is cast away as a superfluous thing for that these offyces are able to make perfect the Churche is the Archbishoppe likewise throwne out of the Churche as a knobbe or some lumpe of fleshe which being no member of the body doth both burden it and disfigure it And as they say that God gaue no Pope to his church therefore the Pope can doe no good so we may well say God gaue no Archbishop to his church therefore the Archbishop can do no good Neyther dyd God geue any archdeacon to his church therefore he can not profite the church But it will be sayde that this argument followeth not because no mention is made heere of the deacon or of the elder which notwithstanding are bothe necessarye in the churche and therefore that there are functions profitable in the church whereof no mention is made heere But how easely doe all men know that the Apostle speaketh of those functions heere only which are conuersant in the worde and haue to doe with the preaching thereof and therefore made heere no mention of the deacon or elder It is sayde agayne that in the Epistle to the Corinth S. Paule speaketh only of Apostles Prophetes and Doctors leauing out Euangelistes and pastors and yet Euangelistes and pastors necessary and so although archbishops are not spoken of in the place to the Ephesians yet they may not be therfore shut out as vnnecessary But they that say so should haue considered that the diuersitie of the matter which the Apostle handleth in these two places bred a diuers kinde of speche For in the Epistle to the Corinthians going aboute to condemne the ambition of men which will thrust them selues into other mens callings and take vpon them to doe all them selues and to be as it were eye and eare and hande and all S. Paule proueth that the churche is a body wherein there are manye members and the same diuers one from an other and that it is not one member only And to proue that it was sufficient to say that he placed some Apostles some Prophets some Doctors without rehearsing all the kindes of functions But in the Epistle to the Ephesians meaning to shew the liberalitie of our sauiour Christ in geuing those which shoulde be able by doctrine and teaching to make perfect and absolute hys church it was necessary that he shoulde recken vp all those functions whereby that worke is done But how commeth it to passe that S. Paule neyther in the one place neyther in the other nor else where maketh mention of the archbishop which is sayd to be the cheefest piller and vnder setter of the church Now I heare what is sayde to this that vnder the pastor is contayned byshop he is not contayned but is the same that pastor How then forsoth say they an archbyshop is byshop well then of byshops some are archbyshops some are what Heere I see that they are hanged in the bush but I will helpe them Of byshops some are archbyshops some are by the common name byshops For if they answere not thus what haue they to say But what an absurd thing were that to say that S. Paule comprehended an archbyshop vnder a pastor or byshop which neyther was at that time nor certayne hundreth yeares after thys were not to deuide but to prophesie And how is it that they neuer marked that S. Paule speaketh of those functions which were in the church and not of those which should be afterwarde and of those that God had geuen and not of those which he would geue for the words are and he hath geuen Moreouer if so be vnder the pastor the apostle comprehended an archbyshop then the archbyshop is necessary and such as the church can not be without and commaunded of God and therefore not taken vp by the pollicie of the church for the time and countrey and other circumstances and such also as can not be put downe at the will of the church which is contrary to the iudgement of those which are the archbyshops patrones The last refuge is that the Apostle made mention of those functions which haue to do with the ministring of the word sacraments not of those which haue to do with order discipline Speake in good earnest had the Apostles nothing to doe with discipline order with what face can you take away the raines of gouernment out of the Apostles hands and put them in the Archbyshops and Archdeacons hands what a peruersenesse is thys that the ministeries inuented by men should be preferred to all the ministeries appoynted and commaunded of God. The Apostles forsoth haue in common with the Archbyshops and Archdeacons the power of ministring of the worde and of the sacraments of binding and losyng and thus farre as good as the Archbyshops and Archdeacons But for disciplyne and order the Apostles haue nothing to doe but herein Archbyshops and Archdeacons are aboue them and better then they Now syr if I would follow your vaine of making so many exclamations as Oh the impudencie Oh the insolencie with twentie other such great Ohs you see I haue occasion both heere and else where but I would not gladly declame especially when I should dispute nor make outcries in stead of reasons But to come to this distinction I had thought before this time that the apostles had bene the * cheefe builders in setting vp the church now I perceiue you make the archbyshops and archdeacons the cheefe builders and the apostles vnder carpenters or common masons to serue and to take the commaundement of the archbishop and archdeacon And wheras it is sayd that the ministers which S. Paule speaketh of are in the worde and sacramentes binding and loosing only and that there be other which are besides these occupyed in the order and disciplyne of the church of which number are archbyshops and archdeacons let vs marke a little what deepe diuinitie heere is And first of all I would gladly aske them with what aduise they haue layde on a greater burden and waight of the archbishops and archdeacons shoulders then the apostles were able to sustaine Secondarily I aske with what boldnesse and vpon the confidence of what giftes any man dare take vppon
him both that which the apostles did and more too Then I say that it is too too vnskilfully done to seperate order and discipline from them that haue the ministerie of the word in hand as though the church without archbyshops and archdeacons were a confused heape and a disordered lumpe when as S. Paule teacheth it to be without them a body consisting of all his partes and members comely knitte and ioyned together wherein nothing wanteth nor nothing is too much Doth it not pertayne to order that the apostle sayth that God hath set first apostles secondly prophets thirdly teachers are not these wordes first second third differences of order if this be not order surely I know not what order is And yet neyther archbyshop nor archdeacon author of this and it was kept also before they were hatched Let vs see of disciplyne and gouernment which we may see to be committed to those which haue the preaching of the word and to others also which dyd not preach the worde when S. Paule sayth that the elders which gouerne wel are worthy double honor especially those which trauaile in the word Where he appoynteth the gouernement to the ministers of the worde and to those also that were not ministers of the worde And thereupon it followeth that the ministers of the church are not seuered one from an other as you seuer them because some haue the ministration of the worde and sacramentes only and some with the administration of the sacramentes and word haue also the gouernement and disciplyne in their handes but cleane contrariwise S. Paule distinguisheth them and sheweth that all the ministers in the church haue the gouermnent but all haue not the worde to handle so that he distinguisheth the ministerie into that whiche is occupyed in the worde and gouernment and into that which is occupyed in the gouernment only But in this distinction you do not only forget S. Paule but you forget your selfe For if S. Paule speake in that place of those that meddle with the ministring of the word and sacraments only why doth the bishop which is one of the ministers that S. Paule speaketh of being the same that pastor is why I say doth he meddle with the discipline and order of the church seeing that belongeth not to him by your distinction why doth also the archbishop whome you say is a bishop meddle with it and thus you see you neede no other aduersary then your selfe to confute you And least any man shoulde say I confute mine owne shadow I must let hym vnderstand that there is a pamphlet in Latine which is called the booke of the doctors which goeth from hande to hande and especially so farre as they coulde bring to passe to those only that they thought to fauoure that opynion in the which booke all these answeres vnto the place of the Ephesians are contayned and almost all that which is comprehended in thys defence of archbishops and archdeacons with other things also which are founde in this booke of M. Doctors and therefore it is very likely that he hauing no other way to vente hys rapsodies and rakings togither thought he would bring them to light after thys sorte but how much better had it bene that thys myshapen thing had had the mothers wombe for the graue or being brought out had bene hidden as the former is in some bench hole or darke place where it should neuer haue seene any light nor no mans eye should euer haue looked of it And thus all these cloudes being scattered by the sunne of truth you see that the place to the Ephesians standeth strong agaynst the archbishop and archdeacon Now will I reason also after thys sorte out of the place of the Ephesians and Corinthyans ioyned together There is no function but hathe giftes fitte and apte to discharge it annexed and geuen vnto it whereuppon the Apostle by a Metonomy doth call the Apostles Prophets c. giftes because they haue alwayes giftes ioyned with them Thys being graunted as no man can deny it I reason thus Those functions only are suffycient for the church which haue all the gifts needefull eyther for the mynistring of the worde and sacramentes or for the gouernement of the churche but all these functions reckened of S. Paule to the Ephesians with those which S. Paule calleth antilepseis and kyberneseis which are the deacons and elders haue the gifts needeful eyther for the gouernment of the church eyther else for the ministering of the worde and sacramentes therefore these functions only are sufficient for the church for it is a superfluous thing to make more offices then there be giftes to furnish them for so they that shoulde haue them shoulde rather be idols then officers And therefore for as much as there is no gift which falleth not into some of these functions it is altogether a vaine and vnprofitable thing to bring more offices and functions into the church besides these And so it may be thus reasoned If men may make and erect new ministeries they must eyther geue giftes for to discharge them or assure men that they shall haue giftes of God whereby they may be able to answere them But they can neyther geue giftes nor assure men of any giftes necessary to discharge those functions therefore they may make or erect no new ministeries Last of all I conclude agaynst these made and deuised ministeries of archbishops and archdeacons after this sort If men may adde ministeries they may also take away for those both belong to one authoritie but they can not take away those ministeries that God hath placed in his church therefore they can not adde to those that are placed in the church And this foundation I thought first to lay or euer I entred into M. Doctors not reasons but authorities not of God but of men in confuting of which there will fall forth also other arguments agaynst both these offices of archbishop and archdeacon Now I will come to the examining of your witnesses whereof some of them are so bored in the eares and branded in their foreheades that no man neede to feare any credite they shall get before any iudge wheresoeuer or before whomsoeuer they come but in the Romishe courte and the papistes only excepted For to let go Polidore Virgil because whatsoeuer hee sayth hee sayth of the credite of another lette vs come to Clement which is the author of this you speake And what is he is there any so blinde that knoweth not that this was nothing lesse then Clement of whome S. Paule speaketh and which * some thinke was the first bishop of Rome ordayned by Peter and not rather a wicked helhounde into whom the Lord had sent sathan to be a lying spirit in his mouth to deceiue them for their vnthankfull receiuing of the gospell And he must witnesse for the archbishop a worthy witnesse For as all that popishe hierarchie came out of the bottomlesse pitte of
hell so to vpholde the archbishop the necke of it whereupon that Romishe monster standeth are raised vp from hell bastardes Clemens and Anacletus and in deede as it may appeare the very naturall sonnes of Sathan and the sworne souldiers of Antichrist A man would haue thought that the bishop of Salisburie master Iuell had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement that all good men would haue had him in detestation so farre of would they haue bene to haue alledged out of him to proue any thing that is in controuersie The bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Ierome to proue that none of those workes which goe in his name are his And although the proufes bee strong which the bishop vseth being the witnes of vnsuspected witnesses yet because the law although it allow two witnesses notwithstanding doth like better of three I will set downe heere also Ireneus which was a great while before them both and followed hard after the times of the true and vncounterfaite Clement and therefore could best tell of him and of hys writings yet * he maketh mention but of one Epistle which vpon occasion amongst the Corinthians he wrote to them In deede in another place of that booke he sheweth that it is very probable that Clement also eyther wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrewes Now if that Epistle to the Corinthes were extante we shoulde easely set by comparing those that are now in hys name with that what a my shapen thing this is And if so be that Ireneus coniecture be good that Clement was the author or interpreter of the Epistle to the Hebrues then what horrible iniurie is done to the holy ghost whyle the same is supposed the wryter of thys booke to the Hebrewes which is the author of suche beggery as thys Clement brought into the worlde And I pray you doe you holde that it is the true christyan relygion whyche that booke contayneth Coulde none of these consyderations driue you from the testimonie of thys Clement it goeth very harde wyth the archbyshop when these Clementes and Anacletusses must be brought to vnderproppe hym But what if there be no such booke as thys is which you name when you say in hys booke intituled compendiariuÌ„ religionis christianae it is like you know not him nor what he sayth when you can not tell so much as his name Only because Polidore wryteth that Clement sayth this in a certayne short summary booke of christian relygion you haue set downe that he wryteth thus in a booke intituled compendiarium christianae religionis where there is no such title neyther in the councels where hys Epistles are neyther yet in all other hys works Thought you to disguise hym with thys new name of the booke that hee shoulde not be knowne â—or ment you to occupy your answerer in seeking of a booke which because he shoulde neuer fynde he should neuer answer The place which Polidore meaneth is in the first epistle which he wryteth vnto Iames the brother of the Lord which is as the rest are both rediculous in the manner of wryting in the matter oftner tymes wycked blasphemous which I speake to thys ende that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath geuen to thys Clement in taking hym as one of hys wytnesses in so great a matter be not abused For answere vnto hym although he be not worth the answering I say that first it may be well sayde heere of the office of the Archbyshop that the father of it was an Amorite and mother a Hittite that is that it commeth of very infamous parentage the beginning therof being of the idolatrous nations And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were hys adopted sonne thereby to wipe away the shame of hys birth it doth S. Peter shamefull iniury For besides that it was farre from S. Peter to take thys authoritie to hym selfe not only of making archbyshops through out euery prouince but also instituting a new order or office without the councell of the rest of the apostles which none else of the apostles dyd and which is contrary to the practise of S. Peter both in the first and sixt of the Actes contrary also to the practises of the apostles which after shall appeare I say besides thys is it lyke that S Peter would grasse the noblest plant as it is sayde of the mynisterie of the gospell in such a rotten stocke of that which was most abhominable in all idolarrie for the greater they were in the seruice of the idolles the more detestable were they before God. The Lorde when he woulde geuelawes of worshipping vnto hys people in the things that were indifferent of shauing cutting and apparell wearing sayth to his people that they shoulde not doe so and so because the Gentiles dyd so yea euen in those things the vse whereof was otherwise very profitable and incommodious to forbeare he would haue theÌ„ notwithstanding to abstaine from as from swines flesh conneys c. to the end that hee might haue them seuered as appeareth in S. Paule by a great and high wall from other nations And therefore it is very vnlike that S. Peter would frame the ministerie of the gospell which is no ceremonie but of the substance of the gospell by the example of the heathenish and idolatrous functions If one had sayde that the Lord had shapen hys common wealth by the paterne of other common wealthes although it had bene most vntrue all other flourishing common wealthes of Athens Lacedemon Rome borowing their good lawes of the Lordes common wealth yet had it bene more tollerable but to say he framed the ministery of the gospell by the priesthode of idolatrie is to fetch chastitie out of Sodome and to seeke for heauen in hell And if so be that the Lord had delighted in thys hierarchie he would rather haue taken of hys owne then borowed of others of hys owne church then of the sinagogue of Sathan For vnder the law besides the Leuites there were priestes and aboue them a high priest And to say that Peter appoynted archbyshoppes and byshoppes by the example of the idolaters is after a sort to make the law to come out of Egypt or Babylon and not out of Sion or Ierusalem as the Prophet sayth You say after that Iames was an archbyshop if he were he was the first and placed ouer the Iewes And although S. Peter might to gaine the Gentiles he content to vse their idolatrous functions with a little chaunge of their names yet there is none so mad to thinke that he would translate any such function from the Gentiles vnto the Iewes whych were neuer before accustomed with any such Flamines or Archiflamines And thys I dare generally and at once say against you and your Clement that the Lord translated diuers things out of the Law into the Gospell as the Presbytery or
witnesses are Popes whereof the first and best ordained that if the Metropolitane did not fetche hys pall at the apostolike sea of Rome wythin three monthes after he were consecrated that then he should lose his dignity as Gratian witnesseth in the decrees y he ascribeth vnto Damasus I doubt not therfore that this is but a forger vpon whom you would father the archdeacon for that Damasus in whose place you put this forger liued An. 387. at what time the sea of Rome had no suche tirannye as thys and other things which are fathered of him do pretēd And if this be enough to proue archdeacons I can with better witnes proue subdeacons acoluthes exorcistes lectores ostiarios these dothe Eusebius make mention of an auncienter wryter then any you bring and out of Ruffine Theodoret Sozomen Socrates c. monks almost in euery page And heere vpon it is more lawfull for me to conclude that monkes subdeacons exorcistes acoluthes ostiarij lectores are necessary ecclesiasticall orders in the church as you conclude the necessity of the archdeacon I perceiue you care not whether the archdeacon fall or no that you bestow so little coste of hym and leaue him so nakedly And if I woulde be but halfe so holde in coniectures and diuinations as you are I coulde say that thys sleighte handling of the archdeacon and sweating so muche aboute the archbyshoppe is thervpon y you woid be loth to come frō being deane to be an archdeacon you liue in some hope of being archbyshop but I will not enter so farre And surely for any thing that I see you might haue trussed vp the archbyshop as shorte as you do the archdeacon For they stand vpon one pinne and those reasons whych establishe the one establishe the other wherevpon also commeth to passe that all those reasons whych were before alledged against the archbishop may be drawn against the archdeacon hauing therfore before proued the vnlawfulnes of them I will heere set downe the difference betweene those archdeacons that were in times past and those whych are nowe whereby it may appeare they are nothing like but in name They were no ministers as appeareth in Sozomen oures are They were tied to a certaine churche and were called archdeacon of suche a congregation or churche oures are tied to none but are called archdeacons of suche a shire They were chosen by all the Deacons of the churche where they be archdeacons oures are appoynted by one man and whych is no deacon They were subiect to the minister of the word oures are aboue them and rule ouer them It was counted to them great arrogancie if they preferred thēselues to any minister or elder of the churche oures will not take the best ministers of the churche as their equalles If therfore archdeacons will haue any benefite by the archdeacons of olde time it is meete they shoulde content them selues wyth that place whych they were in As for the office of a deane as it is vsed wyth vs it is therfore vnlawfull for that he being minister hathe no seuerall charge or congregation appoynted wherein he maye exercise hys ministerie and for that he is ruler and as it were maister of diuers other ministers in hys colledge whych likewise haue no seueral charges of congregations and for that whych is most intollerable bothe he hym selfe oftentimes hauing a seuerall churche or benefice as they call it is vnder the coloure of hys deaneship absent from hys churche and suffereth also those that are vnderneathe hym to be likewise absent from their churches And whereas M. Doctor alleageth S. Augustine to proue thys office to be auncient in deede the name is there founde but besides the name not one propertye of that Deane whych we haue For Augustine speaking of the monkes of those dayes sayeth that the money which they gate wyth the labor of their hands they gaue to their deane which did prouide them meate and drinke and cloth and all things necessary for them so that the monkes shoulde not be drawne away from their studies and meditations throughe the care of worldly things so that thys deane whych he speaketh of was seruaunt and steward and cater to the monkes and therfore only called deane because he was steward and cater to ten monkes Now let it be seene what Augustines deane maketh for the deane whych is nowe and what faith and trust M. Doctor vseth in reciting of the olde fathers And vnto the ende that these testimonies might be more autenticall haue some waight in them M. Doctor addeth that hetherto antichrist had not inuaded the seat of Rome You shall haue much a do to proue that antichrist had not inuaded the sea of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote Nay it is moste certaine that then he had possessed it But what is that to the purpose althoughe there was no one singulare head appeared or lifted vp yet corruption of doctrine and of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion and pompe of the cleargye newe orders and functions of the ministerie whych were the handes that pulled hym the fete whych brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued him vp into that seate were in the church Neither while you doe thus speake doe you seeme to remember that this monster needed nine monethes but almoste nine hundreth yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could wyth all his partes be brought to light And although the Loouer of thys antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations therof being secretely and vnder the ground laid in the apostles times you might easely know that in those times that you speake of the building was wonderfully aduaūced and growne very highe And being a very dangerous thing to ground any order or pollicy of the church vpon men at all whych in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the apostles I wil shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to sende vs for our examples and paternes of gouernment to these times whych he doth direct vs vnto Eusebius oute of Egesippus wryteth that as long as the apostles liued the churche remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they did it in the darke as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the apostles and the generation was past whych God vouchsaued to heare the deuine wisedome wyth their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the church Clement also in a certaine place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately after the apostles times alledgeth the prouerbe that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers And Socrates sayeth of the church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous churches in the apostles times that about the yeare 430. the Romaine and Alexandrian byshops leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a
muche for the Pope as for the archbyshoppe For although they be two heades yet they stande vpon one necke and therfore the reformed churches whych cutte right did strike them bothe of at one blowe In neyther of the sentences heere alledged out of Cyprian nor in all his works as hath bene before noted is there one worde of an archbyshop and yet M. doctor sayeth that he speaketh of an archbyshop Before he shewed the name wythout the office and now he goeth about to shew the office wythout the name so that he can neuer make bothe the name and office meete together To shape out an archbyshop heere you must needes interpreate the wordes byshop and priest archbyshop and hygh priest for Cyprian maketh mention of no other name of ministerie in those places And if you maye haue thys scope of interpreating it wil not be harde for you to proue that stones be bread and that chaulke is cheese Let vs see what is a byshop or priest I vse the name of priest against my wil but because it is sacerdos you so trāslate it that it may be better vnderstanded what I answere to you I am content to followe you so farre I say let vs consider what is a byshop or priest by S. Cyprian and thereby we shall knowe what an archbyshop he setteth forthe vnto vs Whych thing may appeare manifestly by that which he sayeth in the same Epistle that the byshop that is appoynted into the place of hym that is dead is chosen peaceably by the voyce of all the people I thincke you will not say that all the people through oute the whole prouince or through out a whole diocese as we count a diocese mette togither for that had bene bothe a great disorder and confusion a great charge to the church and in the time of persecution as that was to haue offered the whole church in all the prouince into the mouthe of the wolfe And least peraduenture you shoulde haue thys hole to hide your selfe in saying that it might be procured that in euery church or parishe through out eyther the prouince or diocese the consent of the people might be asked and they tary in their places where they dwel Cyprian in the next epistle doth put the matter out of all question saying that the priest whome he after calleth byshop is chosen in the presence of the people in the eyes of all so that Cyprians byshop whome you will needes haue an archbyshop had neither prouince nor diocese as we call a diocese but only a church or congregation suche as the ministers and pastors wyth vs whych are appoynted vnto seuerall townes Which may further appeare in that Cyprian sayeth that out of one prouince there were 90. bishops whych condemned Priuatus Nowe if there were 90. byshops in one prouince whych met and yet not all that were in that prouince as may appeare out of the same Epistle all men do vnderstand that the scope that Cyprians byshop or archbyshop as you will haue him had was no suche thing as a diocese or a prouince I coulde bring infinite testimonies out of Cyprian to proue that the byshop in his time was nothing else but S. Paules byshop that is one that had cure and charge of one flocke whych was so placed as it might be taught of hym and ouerseene by him and gouerned by hym and of whom in matters pertaining to God it myght depend Furthermore to shape the archbyshop by these places of Cyp. you must be driuen to expound this word church prouince The papistes which cite thys place for the pope as you doe for the archbishop expounde the worde churche heere to be the whole church vniuersal and catholike and in dede although it be falsly expounded so in thys place yet may they doe it wyth more probability and likelyhode then to expound it a prouince forsomuch as these words the church is oftner red both in the scripture and old wryters to signify the whole church then any prouince of one realme But lette Cyprian expounde him selfe what he meaneth by a church heere although that may easely appeare by that whych is spoken of S. Cyprian hys bishop Wheras Cyprian declareth that Cornelius the bishop of the church which was in Rome would not let Felicissimum a Nouation hereticke being caste oute by the byshoppes of Affricke to enter into the church he declareth sufficiently that he meaneth that companye of the faithfull whych were gathered togither at Rome to heare the word and to communicate at the sacramentes For it was not Cornelius part to shutte him out of the prouince neither indeede could he him selfe being not able without hazard by reason of the persecution that then was to tary in any part of the prouince Againe speaking against the Nouatian hereticke he sheweth that throughe hys wicked opinion of denying of repentance to those that were fallen the confession of faults in the churche was hindred Nowe it is manifest that confession was not made through out the prouince but in that particulare church where the partye dwelt that committed the fault Therefore Cyprian vnderstandeth by the name of the church neither diocese as we call diocese and muche les a whole prouince And in the same Epistle speaking of those whych had fallen he sayeth that they durst not come so much as to the thresholde or entry of the churche where he also opposeth the church to the prouince saying that they roue about the prouince and run about to deceiue the brethren Seeing therefore the byshop whych Cyprian speaketh of is nothing else but such as we call pastor or as the common name with vs is parson and his church wherof he is bishop is neither diocese nor prouince but a congregation whych mete togither in one place to be taught of one man what should M. doctor meane to put on this great name of archbyshop vpon so small a byshoppricke as it were Saules great harnes vpon Dauid hys little body or as if a man should set a wide huge porche before a little house And least that M. doctor should say that notwithstanding the bishops had but seuerall churches yet one of them might haue either a title more excellēt then the rest or authority and gouernment ouer the rest that shall be likewise considered out of Cyprian And first for the title and honor of archbishop it appeareth how Cyprian held that as a proud name for that he obiecteth to Florentius as a presumptuous thing for that in beleuing certaine euill reports of hym and misiudging of him he did appoynt him selfe bishop of a bishop and iudge ouer hym which was for the time appoynted of God to be iudge And heerein also I may vse the same reasons which the godly writers of our times vse against the pope to proue that he had no superiority in those dayes ouer other bishops for that the other bishops called him brother and he them called him fellow bishop he
That is true whatsoeuer is first and that is false whatsoeuer is later Ierome and you confesse that thys was first that the byshop was all one with the elder and first also by the word of God then I conclude that that is true You both doe likewise confesse that it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest then I conclude that that is false for all that is false that is later Furthermore Ierome in the same place of Titus sayth after thys sort As the elders know them selues to be subiect by a custome of the church vnto hym that is set ouer them so the byshops must know that they are greater then the elders rather by custome then by any truth of the institution of the Lord and so they ought to gouerne the church in common Now seing that Ierome confesseth that a byshop and an elder by God his institution are all one and that custome of the church hath altered thys institution for the taking away of thys custome and restoring of the Lordes institution I say as our sauiour Christ sayd why doe you breake the commaundementes of God to establishe your owne traditions for the one is the institution of God and the other the tradition of the church and if a mans testimony be so much with M. Doctor let hym heare what the same Tertullian fayth whatsoeuer sauoureth agaynst the truth shall be accompted heresie euen although it be an olde custome Now I will turne M. Doctors owne argument vpon hys head after thys sorte In the apostles tymes there were schismes and heresies but in their tymes there were no archbyshops ordayned to appease them therefore the best meanes of composing of controuersies and keping concorde is not by hauing an archbyshop to be ouer a whole prouince That there was none in the apostles tymes thus it may appeare If there were any they were eyther ordayned by the apostles and their authoritie or else without and besides their authoritie If there were any without and besides their authoritie then they are therefore to be condemned the more because in their tymes they starte vp without their warrant And if the apostles dyd ordayne them there was some vse of them to that wherunto they were ordayned but there was no vse of them to that wherunto they were ordayned therefore the apostles dyd not ordayne them The vse wherunto M. Doctor sayth they were ordayned was to compose controuersies and end schismes but to thys they were not vsed whereupon it followeth that if there were any they were vnprofitable That they were not vsed to any such ende it shall be perceiued by that which followeth At Antioche there rose a great and daungerous heresie that had in a manner infected all the churches which shaked the very foundation of the saluation of Gods children that was whether fayth were sufficient to iustifie without circumcision The matter was disputed of both sides it could not be agreed of What doe they now Doe they ordayne some Archbishop Archprophet Archapostle or any one cheefe to whome they will referre the controuersie or vppon whome they will depend nothing lesse And if they would haue had the controtrouersies ended by one what deuine was there euer or shall there be more fitter for that purpose then S. Paule which was amongst them Why doe they sende abrode for remedy when they had it at home why with great charges and long iourneys which they might haue had without charges or one foote set out of the dore what doe they then They sende Paule and Barnabas to Ierusalem as if the lesser townes should send to the churches of the vniuersities and of London to desire their helpe in the determining of the controuersie And what is Paule and Barnabas ambassage is it to desire the iudgement or minde of some one it must needes be answeared wyth S. Luke that they came to know the resolution of the churche and yet there were the apostles wherof euery one was better able both sharply to see and to iudge incorruptly wythout affection then any archbyshop that euer was If therfore in so great aboundance ouerflowing of the gifts of God and in that time when as controuersies might haue bene referred wythout daunger of error vnto one only thys ministerie of one aboue all was not thought good now when the gifts are les and the danger of error more to make an archbyshop for the deciding of controuersies and auoiding of schismes is a thing so straunge that I am not able to see the reason of it For to whych so euer of the apostles the controuersy had bene referred it is certaine that he would haue geuen a true sentence of it And if any can shew me one man in these times of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce the truth of euery question whych shall arise he shall make me somewhat more fauorable to the archbyshop then presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter should lye only vpon his hand seeing that the apostles whych could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them and seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersy is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mennes minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to cōfute falshode it is euident that S. Paule doth hold forth as it were a buckler against the frowardnes of certaine the authority of the church Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the apostles time and by them how commeth it to pas that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to pas that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are found I hold of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whych are sayd to be the cause of the archbyshop ordaineth a cleane contrary to thys that M. Doctor commendeth For when two or three prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. And how commeth it to pas that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and loking euery day when he should geue vp hys last breath commended vnto the church a perfect and an absolute ministery standing of .v. parts wherin he maketh mention not one word of an archbyshop and sayeth further that that ministery is able to entertain the perfect vnity and knitting togither of the church Do not all these things speake or rather cry that there was not so much as a step of an archbyshop in the apostles times And if you will say that the apostles did ordaine archbyshops as you haue in dede sayd do now againe when as there is not one word in the wrytings of them I pray you tell vs how
we shall hold out of the church the vnwrytten verities of the papists for my part if it be true that you say I can not tell what to answer vnto them For our answere is to thē the apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the church wrytten and therfore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet because they are superfluous and more then neede Now this degree of archbishop being not only not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is too bold and hardy a speache that I say no more to fetch the petegree of the archbyshop from the apostles times and from the apostles them selues But all thys time M. Doctor hath forgotten hys question whych was to proue an archbyshop wheras all these testimonies whych he alledgeth make mētion only of a bishop and therfore thys may rather confirme the state of the byshop in this realme thē the archbyshop But in the answere vnto them it shall appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an archbyshop mentioned so except only the name of a bishop there shal be found very little agreemēt betwene the bishops in those dayes and those whych are called byshops in our time with vs. And consequently although M. doctor thought wyth one whiting boxe to haue whited two wals by establishing our archbyshop and byshop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shal be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieroms reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimony of men that is only to be regarded whych is spoken eyther wyth some authority of the scripture or wyth some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speake wythout eyther scripture or reason he is as easely reiected as alledged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedy vnto schismes how so least euery man sayeth he drawing to him selfe to breake the church in peeces But I would aske if the church be not in as great danger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one caryeth all into error as when one pulleth one peece wyth him another an other peece and the third hys partalso wyth him And it is harder to draw many into an error then one or that many should be caryed away by their affections then one whych is euident in water whych if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but being much it is not so easely But by thys ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the cause of discord and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals them selues And admit it were so yet the peace whych is wythout truth is more execrable thē a thousand contentions For as by striking of two flintes togither there commeth out fire so it may be that sometimes by contention the truth whych is hidden in a darke peace may come to light whych by a peace in naughtines and wickednes being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare If therfore superiority domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men from schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to kepe them togither in error and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted then many thys power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Moreouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnity in the church of England that one archbyshop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall church there should be one archbyshop or byshop ouer all and the like necessity of the byshop ouer all christendome as of the byshop of all England vnles peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall church then ouer the church of England for as much as it is more necessary that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersali church then in the particulare church of England If you say that the archbyshop of England hath hys authority graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas whych was Emperor of all christendome did graunt him hys authority ouer all churches But you will say that it is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therin as you do in diuers poynts here But admit it to be a lie as in dede it is touching Constantine yet I say further that it may come to passe it hath ben that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes whych haue churches What if he then will geue that authority to one ouer all that one king graunteth in hys land may any man accept and take at hys hand such authority and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority tel me what fault you can finde in him whych may not be found in them It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a byshop vnto all the whole church neither is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole church of England For when those which haue ben most excellent in knowledge and wisedome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue found enough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he whych absent is able to discharge hys duety toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as by Archdeacons Chauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what doe you else say then the Pope whych sayeth that by hys Cardinalles and archbyshoppes and Legates and other suche like he doeth all things For wyth their hands he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euerye where and wyth their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therfore least if they haue a common defence wyth the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer wyth hym in the cause then peraduenture they be aware of Truely it is against my will that I am constrained to make suche comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersity betweene the Popedome and the archbyshoppricke but because there being greate resemblance betweene them I meane hauing regarde to the bare functions wythout respecting the doctrine good or badde whych they vpholde that I say there being great resemblance betweene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betweene the parsons that execute them The whych good opinion conceyued of them I we moste humbly beseeche them by the glory of God by the libertye of
the churche purchased by the precious bloude of oure sauioure Christe and by their owne saluation that they woulde not deceiue by retaining so harde suche excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the church of the liuing God. But Ierome sayth that this distinction of a byshop a minister or elder was from s Marke his time vnto Dyonisius time wherby M. doctor would make vs beleeue that Marke was the author of this distinction But that can not be gathered by Ieromes words For besides that things being ordred then by the suffrages of the ministers and elders it might as it falleth out of tētimes be done without the approbation of s Marke the words from Marke may be rather taken exclusiuely to shut oute S. Marke and the time wherin he liued then inclusiuely to shut hym in the time wherin thys distinction rose How so euer it be it is certaine that S. Marke did not distinguish make those thyngs diuers whych the holy ghoste made all one For then whych the Lord forbid he shoulde make the story of the gospell whych he wrote suspected Againe it is to be obserued that Ierome sayeth it was so in Alexandria signifying therby that in other churches it was not so And in deede it may appeare in diuers places of the auncient fathers that they confounded priest byshop toke them for all one as Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Anicete Pius Telesphorus Higinus xystus presbyterous cai prostantas elders and presidents Cyprian confoundeth priest and byshop in the epistles before recited so doth Ambrose in the place alledged before by M. doctor and yet it is one thyng with vs to be a priest as M. doctor speaketh and an other thing to be a bishop Ierusalem was a famous church so was Rome as the apostle witnesseth so was Antioche and others where also were great contētions both in doctrine and otherwise and yet for auoiding of contention and schisme there there was no one that was ruler of the rest therfore we ought rather to folowe these churches being many in keping vs to the institution of the apostles then Alexandria being but one church and departing from that institution and if there had bene any one set ouer all the rest in other places it would haue made much for the distinction that Ierome had recited But against thys distinction of s Ierome I will vse no other reason thē that whych Ierome vseth in the same epistle to Euagrius Ierome in that epistle taketh vp very sharply the archd that he preferred hym selfe before the elder the reason is because by the scripture the deacon is inferior vnto the elder Now therfore Ierome him selfe confessing that by the scripture a byshop an elder are equall by Ieromes owne reason the byshop is to be sharply reprehended because he lifteth hym selfe aboue the elder But what helpeth it you that there was a byshop of Alexandria whych vrge an archbyshop or what auauntageth it you that there was one cheefe called a byshop in euery seuerall congregation whych would proue that there ought to be one byshop chefe ouer a thousand congregations What could haue bene brought more strong to pull downe the archbyshop out of hys throne then that whych Ierome sayeth there when he affirmeth that the byshop of the obscurest village or hamlet hath as great authority and dignity as the byshop of Rome Erasmus did see this and sayd eironeuomenos that is iestingly that Ierome spake that of the byshops of hys times but if he had sene how the metropolitanes of our age excell other bishops he wold haue spoken otherwise And what could haue bene more fit to haue confuted the large dominion and superiority of our realme then that that Ierome sayth when he appoynteth the byshops sea in an vplandishe towne or in a pore village or hamlet declaring therby that in euery towne there was a byshop and that the bishop that he speaketh of differeth nothing at all from an elder but that the byshop had the ordaining of the ministers whervpon it doth appeare which I promised to shew that by this place of Ierome there is neither name of archbyshop nor so much as the shadow of his authority and that the byshops whych are now haue besides the name no similitude almost with the byshops that were in Ieromes time as for his reason ad Luciferanos it is the same whych he hath ad Euag. and to Titus and is already answeared What is that to the purpose that Chrysostom sayth there must be degrees who denyeth that there are degrees of functions we confes there is and ought to be a degree of pastors an other of doctors the third of those whych are called elders the fourth of deacons And where he sayth there should be one degree of byshop another of a minister an other of the lay man what proueth that for the office of an archbyshop whych is your purpose to shew how often times must you be called ad Rhombum And that he meaneth nothingles then to make any such difference betwene a byshop and a minister as is wyth vs which you wold faine make your reader beleue I will send you to Chrysostome vpon the third chapter 1. ep to Timothe where he sayeth The office of a byshop differeth little or nothing from an elders and a little after that a byshop differeth nothyng from an elder or minister but by the ordination only Still M. doctor goeth forward in killing a dead man that is in confuting that whych all men condemne and prouing that whych no man denyeth that there must be superiority amongst men and that equality of all men a like confoundeth all and ouerthroweth all Thys is a notable argument there must be some superior among men ergo one minister must be superior to an other Again there must be in the ecclesiastical fūctions some degrees Ergo there must be an archbishop ouer the whole prouince or a bishop ouer the whole diocese And all be it M. doctor taketh great paine to proue that whych no man denyeth yet he doth it so euill fauoredly and so vnfitly as that if a man had no better proufes then he bringeth the degrees of the ecclesiasticall functions myght fall to the ground For heere to proue the degrees of the ecclesiasticall functions he bryngeth in that that Chrysostom sayth there must be magistrate and subiect hym that commaundeth and hym that obeyeth The most therefore that he can conclude of thys for the mynistery is that there must be minister that shall rule and people that shall be obedient and heereby he can not proue that there should be any degrees amongst the ministers and ecclesiasticall gouernors vnles he will say peraduenture that as there are vnder Magistrates and a king aboue them all so there should be vnder mynisters and one mynister aboue them all But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common wealth that there should be one ouer all for that there are other
chuse an other conceyueth the prayer wherby the helpe of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt executed the residue of the things which pertayned vnto the whole action In the seconde of the actes all the Apostles are accused of drunkennesse Peter answeareth for thē all wypeth away the infamy they were charged with But you will say where are the voyces of the rest which did chuse Peter vnto thys First you must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstāce then surely you do Peter great iniury that aske whether he were chosen vnto it For is it to bee thought that Peter would thrust in hym selfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of hys fellowes and preuent hys fellowes of thys preheminence vndoubtedly if it hadde not beene done arrogantly yet it must needes haue a great shew of arrogancye if hee hadde done thys without the consent of hys fellowes And heere you shall heare what the Scholiast sayth which gathereth the iudgement of Greke diuines hora speaking of Peter panta meta koines auton gnomes poiounta Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hereupon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gate any archapostleship beside that the whole story of the actes of the apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same Scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing archikos imperiously nothing meta exousias with domynion or power Further I will admonishe him to take heede least if he striue so sore for the archbyshop he slide or euer he be aware into the tentes of the papistes which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the apostles And that it may bee vnderstanded that thys moderate rule voyde of all pompe and outward shew was not perpetuall nor alwayes tyed vnto one man which were the last poyntes of the cautions I put before turne vnto the 15. of the Actes where is shewed how with the rest of the church the apostles and amongst them Peter being assembled to decide a great controuersie Iames the Apostle and not Peter moderated and gouerned the whole action when as after other had sayd their iudgementes and namely Paule and Barnabas Peter he in the ende in the name of all pronounced the sentence and that whereof the rest agreed and had disputed vnto and the residue rested in that iudgement the which also may likewyse appeare in the 21. of the Actes This is hee which is called the byshop in euery church thys is he also whome Iustin wherof mention is made afterwardes calleth proestos And finally thys is that great archbishoppricke and great bishoppricke that M. Doctor so often stumbleth on This order and preheminence the Apostles time and those that were neare them kept and the nearer they came to the apostles times the nearer they kept them to this order and the farther of they were from those times vntill the discouering of the sonne of perdition the further of were they from thys moderation and nearer to that tyranny and ambitious power which oppressed and ouerlayde the churche of God. And therefore maister Caluin doth warely say that one amongst the apostles indefinitely not any one singular person as Peter had the moderation and rule of the other and further shadoweth out what rule that was by the example of the consul of Rome whose authoritie was to gather the senate together to tell of the matters which were to be handled to gather the voyces to pronounce the sentence And although the Antichrist of Rome had peruerted all good order and taken all libertie of the church into hys the Cardinalles Archbishops and Byshoppes handes yet there are some colde and lyght footinges of it in our synodes which are holden with the parliament where amongst all the mynisters which are assembled out of all the whole realme by the more part of voyces one to chosen which should goe before the rest propounde the causes gather the voyces and bee as it were the mouth of the whole company whome they terme the prolocutor Suche great force hath the truthe that in the vtter ruines of Popery it could neuer be so pulled vp by the rootes that a man coulde neuer know the place thereof no more or that it shoulde not leaue suche markes and printes behinde it whereby it myght afterwardes recouer it selfe and come agayne to the knowledge of men Now you see what authoritie we allow amongst the ministers both in their seuerall churches or in prouinciall sinodes or nationall or generall or what so euer other meetinges shall be aduised of for the profite and edifying of the church and withall you see that as we are farre from thys tyranny and excessiue power which now is in the church so we are by the grace of God as farre from confusion and disorder wherein you trauell so much to make vs to seeme giltie M. Doctor reasoneth agayne that Paule an Apostle and in the highest degree of ministerie was superior to Timothe and Titus Euangelistes and so in a lower degree of mynisterie therefore one mynister is superior to an other one byshop to an other byshop whych are all one office and one function As if I shuld say my Lord Mayor of London is aboue the sherifes therfore one sherife is superior to an other Again an other argumēt he hath of the same strēgth Titus being an Euangelist was superior to al the pastors in Crete which was a degree vnder the Euangelists therfore one pastor must be superior vnto an other pastor And that he was superior he proueth because he had authority to ordaine pastors so that the print of the archbyshop is so deepely set in his head that hereof he can imagine nothing but that Titus shuld be archbishop of all Crete I haue shewed before how these words are to be taken of S. Paule and for so much as M. Doctor burdeneth vs wyth the authority of Caluin so often I wil send him to Caluins owne interpretation vpon this place wher he sheweth the Titus did not ordaine by his owne authority for s. Paul wold not graunt Titus leaue to do that whych he him self wold not and sheweth that to say that Titus should make the election of pastors by him selfe is to giue vnto hym a princely authority and to take away the election from the church and the iudgement of the insufficiency of the minister from the company of the pastors whych were sayeth he to prophane the whole gouernment of the church I maruell therfore what M. doctor meaneth to be so busy wyth M. Caluin and to seke confirmation of his archbyshop and byshop at him whych wold haue shaken at the naming of the one and trembled at the office of the other onles it be because he would faine haue hys plaister where he receiued hys wound but I dare assure him
red more of him then you For I haue red ouer his boke of Martyrs and so I thinke did neuer you For if you had red so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue ben hasty to snatch at this place he would haue taught you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetch your authorities and would haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitanes bishops and other degrees whych you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times somtimes you can not tell whē were not in Higinus time which was a. 180. yeres after Christ I perceiue you fear M. Foxe is an ennemy vnto your archbyshop and primate therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupt hym wyth hys praise and to seeke to drawe hym if it were possible vnto the archbyshop and if not yet at the least that he would be no ennemy if he would not nor could not be his frend You make me suspect that your praise is not harty but pretended because you do so often so bitterly speake against all those that will not receiue the cap and surplice and other ceremonies wherof M. Fox declareth his great misliking For answer vnto the place because I remēber it not nor meane not to read ouer the whole boke to seeke it I say first as I said before that there may be some thing before or after which may geue the solution to this place especially seeing M. Foxe in another place prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfet he vseth thys reason because the fifthe Canon of the sayd Epistles solemnely entreateth of the difference betwene primates metropolitanes and archbyshops whych distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauor more of ambition thē persecution Moreouer I say that M. Foxe wryting a story doth take greater paine and loketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whom then how iustly or vniustly how conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sincerity of the gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whych hath trauailed so much and so profitably to that end will not haue hys authority or name therin to bring any preiudice Now wil I also wyne with you and leaue it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader how well out of the scriptures councels wryters old and new you haue proued either the lawfulnes at all of the names of archbishops patriarches archdeacons primates or of the lawfulnes of the office of them and of byshops whych be in our times And for as much as I haue purposed to answer in one place that which is scattered in diuers I will heere answere halfe a shete of paper whych is annexed of late vnto thys boke put forthe in the name and vnder the credite of the B. of Salisbury Wherin I wil say nothyng of those byting sharpe words which are giuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth archbyshops and archdeacons nouices partly in the end when he calleth them children and the doctrine of the gospell wantonnes c. If he had liued for hys learning and grauitye and otherwyse good desertes of the church in defending the cause therof agaynst the papistes we coulde haue easely borne it at hys handes nowe he is deade and layde vp in peace it were agaynste all humanitye to dygge or to breake vp hys graue only I wil leaue it to the consideration of the reader vpon those things whych are alledged to iudge whether it be any wantonnes or noueltye whych is confirmed by so graue testimonyes of the auncient worde of god Vnto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alledged he answeareth cleane contrary to that whych M. Doctor sayth that we haue nowe neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor Prophets wherevppon he wold conclude that that place is no perfect paterne of the ministery in the church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it nedefull that wee should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a time so that the wante of those nowe is no cause whye the minysteries there recited be not sufficient for the accomplyshment and full fynishing of the church nor cause whye anye other minysteries should be added besydes those whych are there recyted Afterward he saith that neither byshop nor elder are reckned in that place The pastor is there reckened vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and byshop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifye one thyng And as for those elders whych doe only gouerne they are made mention of in other places the apostles purpose being to recken vp here only those minysteries whych are conuersant in the worde as I haue before alledged and therefore the byshop and elder whych wyth gouernment teache also are there contained After that he sayeth there is no catechista if there be a pastor or as some thynke Doctor there is one whych bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther doth it pertayne to any other in the churche and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion then vnto eyther the pastor or doctor how so euer in some times and places they haue made a seuerall office of it And where he sayth that there is neyther deacon nor reader mentioned for the deacon I haue answeared that s Paul speaketh there only of those functiōs whych are occupyed both in teachyng and gouernyng the churches and therfore there was no place there to speake of a deacon and as for the reader it is no such office in the churche whych the minister may not doe And if eyther he haue not leysure or his strength and voyce wil not serue hym first to read some long time and afterwarde to preache it is an easye matter to appoynt some of the elders or deacons or some other graue man in the church to that purpose as it hathe bene practised in the churches in times past and is in the churches reformed in oure dayes without making any new order or office of the ministery Where he sayth that by thys reason we should haue no churches pulpits schooles nor vniuersities it is first easely answeared that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all things necessary for the churche but only of all necessary ecclesiasticall functions whych do both teach gouerne in the church and then I haue already shewed that there were both churches and pulpits As for scholes and vniuersities it is sufficient commaundement of them in that it is commaunded that bothe the magistrates and pastors should be learned for he that commaundeth that they shoulde be learned commaundeth those things and those meanes wherby they may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Testament As in the boke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the vniuersity men and those
in hys Diocese hath the ordering of all matters within the circuite thereof and therfore the meaning of the Councell to bee that if there be any affaires that touche the whole Churche many lande that the Byshoppes shoulde doe nothing without making the Metropolitane priuy as also the Metropolitane myght doe nothing without making the other Byshops a counsell of that which he attempted which maister Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if thys authoritie which the councell geueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authorytie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father thys Canon which was ordayned in thys councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsly of the name of the Apostles to geue creadite vnto thys Canon doth cary with it a note of euill and of shame which they woulde haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie And in the hundreth twentie and three page to that which Maister Bucer sayeth that in the Churches there hath bene one which hath beene cheefe ouer the rest of the mynisters if he meane one cheefe in euery particulare churche or one cheefe ouer the mynisters of dyuers churches meeting at one Synode and cheefe for the time and for such respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is And if he meane any other cheefe or after any other sort I deny that any such cheefety was from the Apostles tymes or that any suche cheefetie pleaseth the holye ghoste whereof I haue before shewed the proufes And wheras M. Bucer seemeth to allow that the name of a byshop which the holy ghost expresly geueth to all the ministers of the word indifferently was appropriated to certen cheefe gouernoures of the church I haue before shewed by dyuers reasons how that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the end great hurt to the church And if M. Doctor delyght thus to oppose mens authoritie to the authoritie of the holy ghost and to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture M. Caluin doth openly misselyke of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certayne which the holy ghost maketh common to moe And whereas of M. Caluines wordes which sayth that there be degrees of honor in the mynistery M. Doctor would gather an archbyshop if he had vnderstanded that an Apostle is aboue an Euangelist an Euangelist aboue a pastor a pastor aboue a doctor and he aboue an elder that ruleth only he needed neuer to haue gone to the popish Hierarchie to seeke hys dyuersities of degrees which he myght haue founde in S. Paule And whereas vpon M. Caluines words which sayeth that Paule was one of the cheefe amongst the Apostles he would seeme to conclude an archbyshop amongst the byshops he should haue remembred that S. Paules cheeftie amongst the Apostles consisted not in hauing any authoritie or domynion ouer the rest but in labouring and suffering more then the rest and in giftes more excellent then the rest Now where as hee sayeth that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule myght be in oure handes and we myght doe what we list and that we seeke to wythdraw oure selues from controlement of Prince and Byshoppe and all Firste hee may learne if hee will that wee desire no other authoritie then that which is to the edifying of the church and which is grounded of the word of God which if any mynister shall abuse to hys gayne or ambytion then he ought to abyde not only the controlement of the other mynisters yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the faulte And seeing you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the mynisters and clergy came to the byshops and archbyshops when as the Pope dyd exempt hys shauelinges from the obedience subiection and iurisdiction of the Princes now therfore that we be ready to geue that subiection vnto the Prince and offer our selues to the Princes correction in things wherein we shall doe a misse doe you thincke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to bee disburdened of the byshops and archbyshops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes And in the. 207. page vnto the middest of the 214. page thys matter is agayne handled where first M. Doctor would draw the place of Galathians the second to proue an archbyshop and that by a false translation for hoi dokountes which is they that seemed or appeared he hath translated they the are the cheefe although the place of the Galathians may be thought of some not so pregnant nor so full agaynst the archbyshop yet all must needes confesse that it maketh more against him then for him For S. Paules purpose is to proue there that he was not inferioure to any of the Apostles bringeth one argument thereof that he had not his gospel from them but from Christ immediatly therfore if the apostles that were estemed most of and supposed by the Galathians others to be the cheefe had no superioritie ouer S. Paule but were equall wyth hym it followeth that there was none that had rule ouer the rest And if there needed no one of the Apostles to be ruler ouer the rest there seemeth to be no neede that one byshoppe should rule ouer the rest But that I run not backe to that I haue handled before I will not heere so much vrge the place as I will not doe also that of the Hebrues which followeth and yet the argument is stronger then that M. Doctor coulde answere For if the wryter to the Hebrues doe proue our sauiour Christes vocation to be iust and lawfull because hys calling was contayned in the scriptures as appeareth in the 5. and 6. verse then it followeth that the calling of the archbishop which is not comprehended there is neither iust nor lawfull For that no man sayth the apostle taketh that honour vnto hym selfe but he that is called of god c. But I say hauing before sufficiently spoken of the reasons which ouerthrow the archbyshoppe I will let passe these and other places answearing only that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establishment of them He sayth therefore afterwarde that although one man be not able to be byshop ouer all the church yet he may be byshop ouer a whole diocese or of a prouince Now if I wold say the one is as impossible as the other for proofe thereof alleage that which the Philosophers say that as there are no degrees in that which is infinite so that of thinges which are infinite one thing can not be more infinite then an other so there are no degrees in impossibilitie that of thinges which are impossible one thyng shoulde bee more impossible then an other If I shoulde thus reason I thincke I shoulde putte you to some payne
plainly by Ierome whych folowed Ambrose immediatlye who in hys third chapter vpon Esay sayeth that they had also the presbyterie or eldershyp in the church The same myght be shewed by diuers other testimonies whych I omit because that it may appeare by the former treatise touchyng the election of the mynister that thys order of eldershyp continued in the church diuers hundreth yeares after Ambrose tyme euen as long almoste as there was any sound part of the church from the head to the heele Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance it remayneth to shewe howe that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously hym selfe abused or else desyreth to abuse other For if wheras he toke halfe Ambrose sentence he had taken the other halfe wyth hym and had not sodenly stopped hys breath that he should speake no more in steade of a false wytnes agaynst the eldershyp he should haue brought forthe as cleare and as flat a witnes for the proofe of them as a man coulde desire out of an auncient wryter The whole sentence is thys speakyng of thys offyce of the elders although not vpon so good occasyon thus he sayeth Whervpon the sinagoge and after the church had elders wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church whych Elders I know not by what neglygence they are worne out onles it be through the slouthfulnes of the doctors or rather throughe theyr pryde whylest they only would seeme to be somewhat Now that I haue shewed the place I wyll say no more I wyl leaue it to M. Doctor to thinke of it in his chamber by hym selfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as thys order is such as wythout whych the principall offices of charity can not be exercysed and that it is that which is commauÌ„ded by the scryptures approued and receyued by all the churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundreth yeares after in the most flouryshing churches bothe in tyme of peace in tyme of persecution and that there are greater causes why it should be in the tyme of peace then in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant why rather now then in the apostles times that in consyderation of these things the eldershyp is necessary and such an order as the church ought not to be wythout And so also is answeared the third question that for so much as they were church offycers and ouer the people in matters pertayning to God such as watched ouer the soules of men that therfore although they were not pastors to preach the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons The rest comprehended in these sections is answeared before being matter whych pertayned vnto the archbyshop Nowe I returne backe agayne to Excommunicacion whych M. Doctor thynketh to be the only disciplyne in the church but he shuld vnderstand that besyde that parte of priuate disciplyne whych is ordinarily and dayly to be exercised by euery one of the pastors elders as Admonition and reprehension there are .iij. princypal parts whych are exercised of them ioyntly and together wherof the first is the election or choyse and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesiasticall officers The second is in excommunication of the stubburne or absolution of the repeÌ„tant The third is the decision of all such matters as doe ryse in the church eyther touchyng corrupt manners or peruerse doctryne As touchyng the election and consequently the throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together wyth the churche the eldershyp hathe the principall sway For the decision of controuersyes wheÌ„ they ryse it may appeare in the. 15. of the Acts that the Presbyterie or Eldershyp of the churche hath to determine of that also Nowe it remayneth heere that whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the Excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoryng to the church agayne doth pertayne only to the minister that I shewe that the Presbyterye or eldership and the whole church also hath interest in the Excommunication and consequently in the absolution or restoryng vnto the churche But heere by the way it is to be noted that in saying that it belongeth to the minister he confesseth the dysorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and geuen to the byshop and hys offycers Nowe that thys charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minyster but cheefely to the eldershyp and pastor it appeareth by that whych the authors of the admonition alledge out of S. Mathewe whych place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstaÌ„ded of the elders of the church It is most absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstanded eyther my Lordes grace or the byshop of the diocese or the Chancellor or Commissarye And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayd to complayne vnto the church whych is the more vntollerable for that being so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe all that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by any reason or lyke phrase of scrypture or by the authority of any godly or approued wryter olde or newe whych notwythstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in hys study so painefully when he can haue but one against twentye and but a sillable where he can not haue a sentence It may be the clearlyer vnderstanded that the presbyterie or eldership had the cheefe stroke in this excoÌ„munication if it be obserued that thys was the pollicy and discipline of the Iewes and of the smagogue from whence our sauyoure Christ toke this and translated it vnto this church that when any man had don any thing that they held for a fault that then the same was punished and censured by the Elders of the church according to the quality of the faulte as it maye appeare in S. Mathewe For althoughe it be of some and those very learned expounded of the ciuill iudgement yet for so muche as the Iewes had nothyng to do wyth ciuill iudgements the same being altogyther in the hands of the Romaines and that the word sanâ—drim corrupted of the Greeke worde synedrion whych S. Mathewe vseth is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbins and especially the Iewes Talmud to signifye the ecclesiasticall gouernors there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures And if the fault were iudged very great then the sentence of Excommunication was awarded by the same elders as appeareth in S. Iohn And thys was the cause why our sauioure Christe spake so shortly of thys matter in the. 18. of S. Mathew wythout noting the circumstances more at large for that he spake of a thyng whych was well knowne and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto And that this was the meaning of our sauioure Christe in those wordes it may appeare by the practise whych is set forthe in the Epistles
for the excommunication By whych testimonies besydes the institution of God the practise of the churches in the apostles times appeareth manifestly what hath ben the vse of the churches touchyng excommunication as long as there was any purity in the church And it is to be obserued heere that bothe in thys parte of the discipline and also in all other partes of it as I haue shewed as in harder and difficulter causes thyngs were referred vnto the Synodes prouincial nationall or generall as the case required so if the elders of any church shall determine any thing contrary to the worde of God or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination the partyes whych are greeued may haue recourse for remedy vnto the elders and pastoures of dyuers churches that is to say vnto Synodes of shires or dioceses or prouinces or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conuenient by the church according to the difficulty or waight of the matters whych are in controuersy Whych meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently not only for the decision of suche difficultyes whych the seuerall presbyteries can not so well iudge of but also to the ende that common counsell myght be taken for the best remeady of the vices or incommodities whych eyther the churches be in or in daunger to be in And as those thyngs whych can not be decided by the Eldershyp of the churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese so those whych for their hardnesse can not be there decided must be brought into the Synodes of larger compasse as I haue shewed to haue bene done in the apostles times and in the churches whych followed them long after These thyngs standing in thys sorte all those Courtes of byshoppes and archbyshoppes must needes fall whych were by Antichrist erected against thys lawfull iurisdiction of Eldership as the courte of faculties and those whych are holden by chauncellors commissaries officials and suche lyke the describyng of the corruptions wherof would require a whole boke of whych I will note the principall heads and summes First for the they enter into an offyce whych pertaineth not vnto them but to euery particulare church and especially to the eldershyp or gouernoures of the church and therfore although they should do nothing but that whych were good lawfull and godly yet can they not approue their labors vnto men much les to God puttyng their sickle in an other mannes harnest For neyther by the truthe of the worde of God dothe that appertayne vnto them neyther by M. Doctors owne iudgement if hys yea were yea and hys nay nay consydering that he sayd before that thys iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers And although it should pertaine vnto the Byshop as he is called to whom notwythstanding it dothe not appertaine yet were it not lawfull for hym to translate thys office vnto an other and to appoynt one to doe it when he lysteth no more then he can appoynt them to doe hys other offyces of ministring as preaching the worde and ministring the sacraments An other thyng is that in these courts whych they cal spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are meere ciuil therby not only peruerting the order whych God hath appoynted in seuering the ciuill causes from the ecclesiasticall but iustling also wyth the ciuill magistrate and thrusting hym from the iurisdiction whych appertaineth vnto hym as the causes of the contracts of mariage of diuorces of willes testaments with diuers suche other like things For although it appertaine to the church and the gouernors therof to shew out of the word of God whych is a lawfull contract or iust cause of diuorce and so forthe yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do appertaine vnto the ciuill magistrate Heerevnto may be added that all their punishments almost are penalties of mony whych can by no meanes appertaine to the church but is a thyng meerely ciuill Thirdly as they handle matters whych do not appertain vnto the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction so those whych do appertaine vnto the church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable whych M. doctor hym selfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Last of all they take vpon them those thyngs whych are neyther lawful for ciuill nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to doe of whych sorte diuers are reckened vp by the admonition and same confessed by M. Doctor I will not heere speake of the vnfitnes of those whych are chefe offycers in these courts that the most of them are eyther papists or bribers or drunkardes I know what I wryte or epicures and such as liue of benefices and prebends in England or in Ireland doing nothing of those things whych appertaine vnto them and of other suche naughty persons whych are not only not meete to be gouernors in the church but whych in any reformed church shoulde not be so much as of the church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do the whych they do of conscience and with minde to healpe forwarde the Churche whych I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe them selues in their vocations and being men for their giftes apte and able either to serue the Church or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupye theyr gifts there then where they haue no grounde to assure them selues that they doe please god Now I will take a short suruey of that whych M. doctor alleageth to proue his offices of master of faculties chancellors c. First he sayth in the 117 page out of the Ancyran councel that there were vicars of bishops wher although y name be not foūd of chācclors c. yet there is sayth he the office What vicar s Paules B. may haue and in what case I haue shewed before where I haue proued the necessary residence of euery pastor in his flock But I will note heere how M. Doctor both goe about to abuse hys reader in these vicares And first where there were three editions of which one only maketh mention of these vicares he tooke that left the other which is to be obserued for that thys varietie of editions rose of the diuers vnderstanding of the greke word chorepiscopos which may be taken eyther for hym that is byshop for an other and in hys place or for hym that is byshop in the country that is in some towne which is no citie so that chorepiscopus was opposed vnto the byshop which was of some citie And if it be so taken then here is no proofe for the vicarse of byshoppes But howsoeuer it be it shall appeare that the names of chauncelors and chorepiscopos doe not so much differ as the offices and functions of them For it appeareth in the same Councell and Canon that they were like the. 70. disciples
Phillippyans and of the Actes for although it be not there sayd that the deacons were in euery church yet for so muche as the same vse of them was in all churches which was in Ierusalem at Philippos and for that the Apostles as hath bene before touched laboring after the vniformitie of the church ordeyned the same officers in all churches the proofe of one is the proofe of all and the shewing that there were deacōs in one church is the shewing in all The place which they alledge out of the first to Timothe is of all other most proper for S. Paule there describing not how the church of Ephesus but simply and generally how the church must be gouerned reckneth there the order of deacons Whereunto may be added the contynuall practise of the church long after the Apostles times which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these words the byshop elders and deacons of such a church and vnto the byshop elders and deacons of such a church And by that it is so often times sayd in the councelles where the churches assembled y there were so many byshops so many elders so many deacons The thirde poynt in thys deaconship is whether it be a necessary office in the church or for a tyme only which controuersy shoulde not haue bene if M. Doctors english tong had bene agreable with hys latin For in a certayne latin pamphlet of hys whereof I spake before he maketh the deaconship a necessary office and such as ought not to be taken out of the church here he singeth a nother song There because he thought the necessitie of the deacon made for hym he wold nedes haue deacons here because it maketh agaynst hym he sayth there is no neede of them wherby appeareth how small cause there is that M. Doctor should vpbrayde the authors of the admonition with mutability and discord with them selues But that thys office is durable and perpetuall it may appeare by that which I haue alledged before out of the sixt of Timothe for the necessitie of elders for the argumentes serue to proue the necessitie of those orders which are there set forth whereof the deacon is one And where as M. Doctor sayth that euery church is not hable to fynde a curate as he termeth hym and a deacon I haue before shewed intreating of the senyors that the churches in the Apostles tymes might best haue sayd thys being poore and persecuted althoughe I see not why the church may not haue a deacon or deacons if moe be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors There remayneth to speake of the widdowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of 60. yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill which might rise by slaunderous tonges if they had bene yonger These as they were norished at the charges of the church being poore so dyd they serue the church in attending vpon poore strangers and the poore which were sicke in the church whereof they were widdowes Now although there is not so great vse of these widdowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein thys order of widdowes was instituted part of the which necessity grew both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution by the great heate of those east countries whereupon the washing supplyng of their feete was required yet for so much as there are poore which are sicke in euery church I doe not see how a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendance of them in their sicknes other infirmities then thys which S. Paule appoynteth that there shuld be if there can be any gotten godly poore widdowes of the age which S. Paule appoynteth which should attend vpon such For if there be any such poore widdowes of that age destitute of all friendes it is manifest that they must needes liue of the charge of the church seing they must nedes do so it is better they shuld do some duety for it vnto the church agayne thē the church should be at a new charge to finde others to attend vpon those which are sicke destitute of keepers seing that there can be none so fit for that purpose as those women which S. Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that if such may be gotten we ought also to kepe that order of widowes in the church still I know y there be lerned men which thinke otherwise but I stand vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vppon the opynions of men be they neuer so well learned And if the matter also shoulde be tryed by the iudgement of men I am able to shew the iudgement of as learned as thys age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widdowes is perpetuall and ought to be where it may be had and where such widdowes are founde In deede they are more rare now then in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those which had the gift of continency dyd abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were driuen to flye then the estate of those which were maryed Vnto all the rest vntill the ende of the first part of the admonition I haue answered alredy Yet there is a poynt or two which I must touch wherof the first is in the. 126. page where he would beare men in hand that the authors of the admonition and some other of theyr mynde would shut out the cyuill magistrate and the Prince from all authoritie in Ecclesiastical matters which surmise although I see it is not so much because eyther he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing as because he meaneth heereby to lay a bayte to entrappe with all thinking that where he maketh no conscience to geue he careth not what authority to Princes we will be loth to geue more then the word of God will permit wherby he hopeth to draw vs into displeasure with the Prince yet for because he shall vnderstande we norish no opynions secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly and for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in thys part which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite but is lymitted by the word of God and of whome we are perswaded that as her maiesty knoweth so shee will not vnwillingly heare the truth in thys behalfe these things I say being considered I answere in the name of the authors of the admonition and those some other which you speake of that the Prince and cyuill magistrate hath to see that the lawes of God touching hys worshippe and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed dewly obserued to se that euery Ecclesiasticall person do that office whereunto he is
and grauitie that the order which the Apostle there vseth is still to be obserued M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ in the. 1. booke and. 9. chap. sayeth that S. Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole church dyd not cast out of their company the incestuous person 6. That Chauncelors Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authority in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 7. sect speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Byshops charge and that they handle matters whiche pertayne not to the spirituall iurisdiction M. Beza in hys boke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimonyall causes appertayneth vnto the cyuill magistrate sayeth that officials proctors and promoters and in a word all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the church Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. chap. to the Romaines speaking agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of byshops doth by the same reason condemne it in their deputies the officials 7. That the mynisters of the worde ought not to exercise any ciuill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 9. sect bringeth dyuers reasons to proue that byshops may neyther vsurpe nor take being geuen them eyther the right of the sword or the knowledge of ciuill causes M. Beza in hys Confessions chap. 5. sect 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the byshops in the times of Christian Emperoures were troubled with the hearing of cyuill causes yet they dyd not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a frendly entreaty of the parties which were at discorde and sayeth notwithstanding that herein the Emperors dyd geue too much to the ambytion of certayne byshoppes whereupon by little and by litle afterwarde all thinges were confounded And in the. 42. section sayeth that those corporall punyshmentes which the Apostles exercised were peculier and extraordinary Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romaines speaking of thys meeting of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayeth that when both the ciuill Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hindreth the other so that he which exerciseth the one can not mynister the other M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Mathew sayeth that there is no man so wise holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill the Ecclesiasticall power and that therfore he which will exercise the one must leaue the other 8. That the sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The forsayd confession .c. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by women or midwiues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgy of the English church at Geneua which cōdemneth the mynistring of either of the sacraments in priuate houses or by women Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chap. of the. 1. ep to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes supper noteth thys to be one that the church dyd not communicate altogether which corruption as it was in dyuers places in times past so he complayneth that it is now M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chap. proueth out of the. 10. to the Corinth that the whole church should receiue the supper of the Lord together and that the vse of the church of God in thys behalfe ought with great and dyligent endeuour to be restored vnto the churches that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called M. Beza agaynst Westphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be mynistred but in the church that at standing houres and by the mynisters and further that vppon no necessitie as it is called it ought to be mynistred in priuate houses And that if it might be mynistred in priuate houses yet no otherwyse then by mynisters M. Caluin in hys institutions 4. booke chap. 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by priuate men or by any women 9. The iudgement of those late wryters touching ceremonies and apparell whose secret Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places folowing cited but of their workes Printed and published by them selues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to thys purpose wherunto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Math. sayth that they say nothing which doe alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged then the reformation of ceremonies therby defending the reliques of Antichrist forasmuch as ceremonies are testimonies of religion And that as there is no agreement betwene Christ and Belial so those which are sincere Christians can abyde nothing of Antichrist Peter Martyr vpon the .10 c. of the .2 booke of the kings sayeth that the Lutheranes must take heede least whilest they cut of many popishe errors they follow Iehu by retayning also many popish things For they defend still the reall presence in the breade of the supper and images and vestmentes c. and sayth that relygion must be wholy reformed to the quicke Bullinger in hys Decades 5. booke and. 9. sermon sayth that our sauior Christ the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the supper and that although in times past the ministers put on a kynde of cloke vppon their common apparell yet that was done neither by the example of Christ nor of hys Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the priestes apparell in the olde law it was cast vpon the mynisters at the ministration of the supper But sayeth he we haue learned long agoe not only that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to bee brought agayne into the church of no man And therefore seing we are in the light of the gospell and not vnder the shadow of the law we doe worthely reiect that massing Leuiticall apparell Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth thys for one reason to improue Paules shauing of hys head for that the gospell had beene preached .xx. yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue beene borne with And after hee sayeth that that teacheth how much the supersticious masters of ceremonyes hurte the gospell which nourishe the weakenes of fayth by the long keeping of ceremonyes and by their long bearing hynder the doinges of those mynisters which are more feruent FINIS Prouer. 8. 15. 2. Chap. 34. 60. chap. 12. 3. Deut. 25. 2. Samu. 7. 2. Psal 132. Esra 3. 3. 10. Agg. 1. 14. 2. kin 22. 23. 2. kin 18. 2. Chr. 17. 8 Chap. 17. 18 1. Cor. 1. 27. 28 2. Chro. 29. 34 2. Chr. 30. 17. 2. Kin. 5. 4. 14 1. Sam. 25. 18 1. Agg. 234. 1. Cor. 3. 12. 13 2. Cor. 6. 15. Cap. 2. 42. 43. Rom. 12. 18. 2. Cor. 10.
was neuer hereticke so abhominable but that he had some truth to cloke hys falshode should hys vntruths and blasphemies driue vs from the possession of that which he holdeth truely no not the Deuill hym selfe saying that * God had geuen his angels charge ouer his can thereby wring this sentence from vs why we should not both beleue it and speake it being a necessary truth to beleue and speake You may as wel say we are Anabaptists because we say there is but one God as they did one Christ as they did c. And heere I will geue the reader a tast of your Logike that you make so much of in your boke The Anabaptists say that the churches ought to chuse their minister and not the magistrate And you say so Therfore you are Anabaptists or in the way to Anabaptisme The Anabaptists complained that the Christians vsed not their authoritie in excommunication And so do you complaine Therfore you are Anabaptists or in the way to them I will not lay to your charge that you haue not learned Aristotles Priorums which sayth it is asystaton as often as the meane in any syllogisme is cōsequent to both the extremes But haue you not learned that whych Seton or any other halfepenny Logik telleth you that you can not conclude affirmatiuely in the second figure and of thys sort are euery one of your surmises contained in thys Treatise whych you entitle an exhortation c. And if I liked to make a long boke of little matter as you do I would thus gather your argumēts out of euery brasich whych you ascribe as common vnto vs wyth the Anabaptists as you make adoe vpon euery place whych is quoted by the admonition to the Parliament But answer I pray you in good faith are you of that iudgement that the ciuill magistrate should ordaine ministers Or that there should be no excommunication whych we know was in the primitiue and is vsed in certaine the Heluetian churches If you be your controuersy is not so much wyth vs as wyth the byshops whych both call ministers and excommunicate If you be not why is that Anabaptisticall in vs whych is christian and catholike in you and why do you go about to bring vs in hatred for those things whych you do no more alow then these whom you thus endeuor to discredite We do not say that there is no lawfull or no ordinary calling in England for we do not deny but that he maye be lawfully called whych is not ordinarily as M. Luther Melancthon Zuinglius Oecolampadius c. and there be places in England where the ministers are called by their parishes in such sorte as the examples of the scripture do shew to haue bene done before the eldershyp and gouernment of the church be established I know not any that saith that the gospel is not truely preached in Englande and by those also that are not of the same iudgement that the Admonition to the Parliament is of But if it be sayd that it is not generally of euery one of them and in all poynts or not so oftē or not there where their duety bindeth them and they are called vnto or not so sincerely or wythout mixture as it oughte to be then there is nothing sayde but that which we feare may be too easely proued If it be sayde of some that in certaine there are found some of those things that were reprehēded in the Phariseis what is that to proue that they be Anabaptistes y speake it Your selfe in one place of your booke call the authors of the Admonition and their fauourers Phariseis who do all thyngs to be seene of men and therefore they sighe and holde downe their heades c. and thys you speake against them that preache the gospell Therefore by your reason you geue sentence of Anabaptisme against your selfe You promised you would not wryte one worde wherof you had not your author for it First you haue peruerted the meaning of the Anabaptists in that wherein they accused the godly ministers that they were not according to that whych is wrytten in the third of the first Epistle to Timothe and all because you would multiply the nōbre of your likelyhodes For they charged the ministers by that place of dissolutenes and losenes of lyfe and corruption of manners and we alledge it to proue that they should be able to teache and instruct against the dumbe ministery that is abrode But that which followeth vttereth not only great vntruth and falsification of the author but sheweth a minde desirous to slaunder and sory as it seemeth that those whych you so greeuously discredite are no liker the Anabaptists then they be I will sette downe the wordes as they are wrytten in the. 102. leafe that it may appeare howe faithfully you haue dealt Libere enim dicunt concionatores qui stipendium accipiunt non esse veros Dei ministros neque posse docere veritatem sed esse ventris ministros qui otiose accipiant ingentia stipendia ex illis rebus que simulachris immolate fuerunt ex diuitiis splendide luxuriose viuant cum tamen Christus dixit gratis accepistis gratis date prohibuit duas tunicas peram pecuniam habere Preterea Paulum aiunt manibus suis laborasse mandasse reliquis vt idem faciant itaque concludunt nulla debere stipendia habere sui officii sed laborare gratis ministrare quiahoc non faciunt non posse ipsos veritatem docere They say freely speaking of the Anabaptists that the preachers whych take stipends can not be the true ministers of God nor teache the truthe but are ministers of the belly whych to liue idlely take great stipendes of those things whych were offered to images and doe of their riches liue gorgeously and riotously when notwithstanding Christe sayde ye haue receiued freely geue freely and for bad them to haue two coates or a scrip or money Besides that they say that Paule laboured with hys owne handes and gaue commaundement to the rest of the ministers that they should do so and therefore they conclude that they should haue no stipende for their office but laboure and minister for nought and because they doe not so they can not teache the truthe Nowe let all men iudge whether it be one thing to say that they ought not to haue stipends that labor not or to say as the Anabaptists sayd that it was not lawfull to haue any stipende or to say they coulde not teach truely because they had great liuings or because they had any liuings at all Although I neuer red nor heard any of those that you meane saye that those whych had great stipends and liuings could not preach truely It may be that diuers haue sayd that it were meete the ministers should be content wyth competent stipends and that the ouerplus of that myght go to the supply of the wants of other ministers liuings and to the maintenance
of the poore or of the vniuersitie and that that exces is the cause of diuers disorders in those persons that haue it but that they could not preache truely when they preached whych had great liuings I for my part neuer heard it I thinke you would not be exempted from reprehension of that wherin you fault and therfore I knowe not what you meane by these words the they did not those things them selues which they taught others we profes no such perfection in our liues but that we are oftentimes behinde a great deale in doing of that whych is taught to be our dueties to doe and therefore thinke it necessary that we should be reprehended and shewed our faultes Whereas you say that the Anabaptists accused the ministers for geuing too much to the Magistrates I haue shewed what we geue and if it be too little shew vs and we will amend our fault I assure you it greueth me and I am euen in the beginning weary of turning vp thys dunge and refuting so vaine and friuolous slaunders wythout all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be breefe in the rest To the thirde We praise God for this reformation so farre forthe as it is agreeable vnto the word of God we are glad the word of God is preached that the sacraments are ministred that whych is wanting we desire it may be added that whych is ouermuche cutte of and we are not ashamed to profes that we desire it may be done according to the institution of the churches in the Apostles time You your selfe confes that excommunication is abused that no amendment of life appeareth since the preaching of the gospel is an old and generall complaint of all godly ministers in all churches and in all tunes * Esay preached this in the church and of the whole churche and further that they brought for the rotten frute Dauid that the faithfull people were deminished out of the lād that there was none that did good no not one And diuers other of the Prophets haue made greuouser complaints and great charges against the people of God and yet were no Anabaptists nor in the way to Anabaptisme If there be none that eyther haue wrytten or spoken that the church of England is no more the true Churche of Christ then the papisticall churche then besides that there is no truthe in youre tongue there seemeth to be no shame in your forheade if there be any it standeth your good name in hand that you bring them out To the fourth If some of those whych fauor this cause haue ben ouercaryed in part to do things which might haue ben more cōueniently ordered it is against reason that you should therfore charge those which fauor thys cause that you oppugne You would thinke you had wrong if because some of those that fauor that which you fauor in this matter be either free wil men or hold consubstantiation in the Sacrament you shuld be chalenged as free will men or maintainers of consubstantiation If those metings whych they had were permitted vnto them by them that haue authoritie I see nothing why they may not seeke to serue God in puritie and les mixture of hurtfull ceremonies If they were not permitted yet your name of conuenticles whych agreed to the Anabaptists is too lighte and contemptuous to set forth those assemblies wherin I thinke you wil not deny but that the word of God and his sacraments were ministred take you heede that these so reprochfull speaches which you throw out against men reache not vnto God A softer word would haue better becommed you To the fifth I answere as vnto the last clause of the thirde article To the sixth We pretend it not but we propound it and herein we call God to witnes agaynst our owne soules To the seuenth If you do not these things which we say not we wil rather do thē with the Anabaptists then leaue them vndone with you Of our simple heart meaning in thē we haue before proteste◠In the meane season we wil paciently abide vntill the Lord bring our * rightuousnes in thys behalfe vnto light and our lust dealing as the none day Touching our sighing and seldome or neuer laughing you giue occasion after to speake of it vnto the which place I reserue the answer To the eight We are no Stoikes that we should not be touched with the feeling of our grefes if our complaintes be excessiue shewe them and we will abridge them What errors we defend and how you maintaine your part by the word of God it will appeare in the discourse of your boke To the ninthe Their finding fault wythout cause in the ceremonies of baptisme can not barre vs from finding fault where there is cause We allowe of the baptisme of children and hope throughe the goodnes of God that it shall be farre from vs euer to condemne it But to let your slaunderous tong go all the strings wherof ye seme to haue losed that it may the more frely be throwne out and walke against the innocent Where where is the modesty you require in other of not entring to iudge of things vnknowne which dare insinuate to the magistrate that it is lyke they will condemne childrens baptisme which doe baptise them preach they should he baptized and whych did neuer by sillable letter or countenaunce mislike of their baptisme To the. 10. 11. and. 12. I answer as vnto the fifth and for further answer I will refer the reader to those places where occasion shall be geuen to speake of these thyngs againe To the. 13. This is a braunch of the. 8. and added for nothing else but to make vp the tale To the. 14. We feare no shedding of bloud in her maiesties dayes for maintaining that whych we hope we shal be able to proue out of the word of God and wherin we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the things which we stād vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aforde them for the defence of them VVe bragge not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirite to abide whatsoeuer he shall thinke good to try vs with either for profession of thys or any other hys truth whatsoeuer To the. 15. VVe make no seperation from the church we go about to seperate all those thyngs that offend in the church to the end that we being all knit to the sincere truth of the gospell might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more nearely and closely ioyned together VVe endeuor that euery church hauing a lawfull pastor whych is able to instruct all myght be ranged to their proper churches wheras diuers onles they go to other then their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinary churches and pastors Let
we teach nothing les thē that there is no true church but in Englande If the churches be considered in the partes whether minister or people there is none pure vnspotted and this is the faith of the true Church and not of the Donatistes If it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outward pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I know if men would labor to purge it The Donatists vaūted them selues to be exempted from sinne and what likelyhode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansy of the Donatists To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of religion denying it to be true I reserue the further answer to another place To the next section Salomon sayth the the beginning of the words of an vnwise mā is folishnes but the later end of thē is mere madnes euen so it falleth out by you for whilest you suffer your self to be caryed hedlong of your affections you hurle you know not what nor at whome what so euer commeth first to hande speake things that the eyes and eares of all men heare see to be otherwise Whilest you compare them to Anabaptists Donatists some frend of yours myght thinke you said truely because such alwayes seking darke and solitary places might happely haue some fauorers whych are not knowen But when you ioyne them with y papists which are commonly knowne to all men whose doctrine they impugne as wel as you whose marks badges they can les away with then you whose company they flie more then you whose punishment they haue called for more then you for your part haue done and therfore are condemned of them as cruell when you oftentimes cary away the name of mildnes and moderation whych forsothe knowe as you haue professed no commaundement in the scrypture to put heretikes to death when I say you ioyne them thus with papistes you do not only leese your credite in these vntrue surmises wherein I trust with the indifferent reader you neuer had any but you make all other thyngs suspected whych you affirme so that you geue men occasion to take vp the common prouer be against you I will trust you no further then I see you After you haue thus yoked them wyth the papistes you go about to shew wherin they draw wyth them Wherin first I aske of you if all they that affirm or do any thing that the enemies of the church do are forthwith ioyned and conspired wyth them against the church what say you to s Paule that ioyned with the * Pharisies in the resurrection with the false apostles in taking no * wages of the Corinthians to oure sauioure Christe which spake against the Iewes whych were then the only people of God as the Gentils did whych were their ennemies wil you say therfore that either S. Paule ioyned with the Pharisies or false Apostles against the church or that our sauioure Christ ioyned against the Iewes wyth the Gentiles but let vs see your slaunders particularly To the first They do not deny but there is a visible church of God in England therfore your saying of them y they do almost in plaine and flat termes say that we haue not so much as any outward face shew of the true church argueth that you haue almost no loue in you which vpon one word once vttered contrary to the tenure of their boke course of their whole life surmise this of thē and how truly you conclude of that word skarce it shall appeare when we come to that place To the second I haue answered this in the 2. article of Anabaptisme the you charge vs with To the third Thys also is answered in the thirde To the fourth I answer that they do not condemne it wholely but finde fault with it as in some poynts disagreeing wyth the word of God. To the fifth All men shall perceiue when I come to that place howe you haue racked their words to an other sense then they spake them In the meane season it is enough that they confes that reading in the church is godly To the sixth I haue answeared in the tenth Article of Anabaptisme To the seuenth I answer that * Doeg when he sayd that Dauid came to Abimelech said nothing but truth and when they that witnessed against Christe that he sayde * destroy the temple and in three dayes I will build it vp againe sayde nothing but that our sauior Christ sayd But yet Doeg was a slaunderer and the other false witnesses because the one spake it of minde to hurt the other vnderstode it of an other temple then oure sauioure Christ ment it So although you doe in parte rehearse their wordes yet taking them contrary to their meaning whych myght easely appeare by the circumstances I see not howe you can be free from these faultes vnles it be done ignorantly whych I wishe were true for your owne sake And here I wil desire thee gentle reader to marke with what conscience this man sayth that they are ioyned and confederate with papists against the church The papistes mislyke of the boke of common prayer for nothing els but because it swarueth from their masse boke and is not in all poynts like vnto it And these men mislike it for nothyng els but because it hath too much likelyhode vnto it And iudge whether they be more ioyned wyth the papists whych would haue no communion nor felowship wyth them neither in ceremonies nor doctrine nor gouernment or they whych forsaking their doctrine retaine parte of their ceremonies and almost their whole gouernment that is they that seperate them selues by three walles or by one they that would be parted by the brode sea from them or which would be deuided by narowe water where they may make a bridge to come in againe and displace the truthe of the gospell as they haue done in times past They that would not only vnhorse the Pope but also take away the stirrops whereby he should neuer get into the saddle agayne or they which being content wyth that that he is vnhorsed leaue his ceremonies hys gouernment especially as stirrops whereby he may leape vp againe when as occasion serueth They that are content only to haue cut the armes and body of the tree of antichristianitie or they which wold haue stumpe and roote all vp The last section After you haue all to be blacked and grimed wyth the inke of Anabaptisme Donatisme and Papisme those whome you found cleare from the least spot or specke of any of them you whet the sword and blow the fire and you will haue the godly magistrate minister of your choler and therfore in stead of feare of leesing the multitude of your liuings forgoing your pompe and pride of men and delicacy of fare vnlawfull iurisdiction which you haue and heereafter loke for conscience religion and
profession of our selues wil not do it And therfore we wil first stay our selues with y testimony of our owne consciences thē in the equity of the iudgemēt of al those which shal indifferētly cōsider these things y we are charged with And as for the sworde that is so hotly hastely called for we hope it be in their hāds which wil vse it better then they are by you directed To come therfore vnto the matter out of the places of the. 20. of Mathew and the 22. of Luke where our sauiour Christ vpon occasion of the inordinate request of the sonnes of Zebede putteth a difference betwene the ciuill and ecclesiasticall function he placeth the distinction of them in two poyntes whereof the one is in their office the other is in their names and titles The distinction of the office he noteth in these words the kings of the Gentiles haue dominion ouer them and the princes exercise authoritie ouer them but it shal not be so with you Wherupon the argument may be thus gathered That wherein the ciuill magistrate is seuered from the ecclesiasticall officer doth not agree to one minister ouer an other But the ciuill magistrate is seuered from the ecclesiasticall officer by bearing dominion Therfore bearing dominion doth not agree to one minister ouer an other Touching their names and titles he putteth a differēce in these words And they are called gracious Lordes but it shall not be so with you And so the argument may be framed as before that for as muche as they are seuered in titles and that to the ciuill minister doth agree the title of gracious Lordes therefore to the Ecclesiasticall minister the same doth not agree For as it is fitte that they whose offices cary an outward maiestie and pompe should haue names agreeable to their magnificence so is it meete that those that God hath remoued from that pompe and outwarde shew shoulde likewise be remoued from such swelling and loftie titles as doe not agree with the simplicitie of the ministerie whiche they exercise And whereas it myght seeme somewhat vniuste that he that hath the greater giftes shoulde not be preferred to those which haue lesse our sauioure Christ sheweth that the matter is farre otherwise For by how much euery man doth excell his fellow in the giftes of the holy ghost by so muche more he oughte to employ him selfe to the benefite of others so that in a maner he should become as it were their seruaunt to doe them good Which although it be in part common to the ciuill magistrate with the minister of the word yet he doth neuer let downe him selfe so low nor geueth his seruice either to the church or common wealth but that he doth and ought in that seruice to retayne that dignitie and countenaunce with the markes and notes thereof which hys princely estate doth require In the end he propoundeth him selfe for example in whome he setteth before their eyes a perfect paterne of the ministerie For seeing he being Lord tooke vpō him to be a seruaunt being Emperor and king of heauen earth was contēt to want all the glory shew of the world his ministerie so requiring it shoulde be great shame for them which were his disciples chosen out for the ministery not to content them selues but to aspire vnto such offices and dignities as they dreamed of Agaynst thys is sayde that the places do nothing else but condemne ambitious desire and tyrannicall vsage of authoritie and doth not barre the ministers of these thinges Then be like all those godly and learned men which haue vsed these places to proue that the Pope which professeth him selfe to be an ecclesiasticall person ought not to haue the ciuill sworde nor to vsurpe vnto him selfe suche glorious pompe haue abused them For you teach him how he should answere that there is nothing forbidden but ambition and tyrannie and in deede this is the answere of all the Papists to that obiection But Musculus a learned man is of the iudgement And M. Caluin as learned as he with diuers other are of that iudgement that I haue alleaged This is no great proofe of your side nor reproofe of ours let vs therefore see the reasons wherewith this exposition is warranted Musculus reason is this that if he should haue ment that the Apostles had bene equall and none greater then an other then there should be equalitie of all and none should haue authoritie ouer other And so there shoulde be no degrees of the Prince and subiect in the common wealth of master and seruaunt in a familie of people minister in the church But it is no good reason to say there is nor ought to be any inequalitie amongst the apostles therefore there is none nor ought to be none at al Or to say there is no mequalitie amongst the pastors therefore there is no inequalitie betwene the pastors and the people For as common wealthes families and churches are preserued by inequalitie and in that some are higher and some are lower some rule and some obey so are the same likewise preserued by equalitie of certayne amongst them selues As for example albeit the Consuls in Rome wer aboue other offices and the people yet were they equall betwene them selues And although it be the preseruation of the family that the master should be aboue the sernaunt and the father aboue the sonne yet it tendeth also to the quiet of the house that the seruaunts amongst them selues and the brethren amongst them selues should be equall And so we graunt that for the preseruation of the church it is necessary that there be some should beare rule and other should be vnder their rule but I deny that thereof followeth that one minister should beare rule ouer an other Whereas M. Musculus sayth that Peter was found in many places chefe amongst the rest if he meane as Eusebius lib. 2. cap. 14. doth which sayth that he was tes aretes eneka tôn Ioipon apostolon proegoron for his vertues and gifts he had one that spake before the rest in the name of the rest which he semeth to do in that he doth not absolutely geue any chefetie vnto him but only in certayne places I agree with him and do not deny but such chiefetie may be amongst the ministers as shall appeare more at large hereafter This interpretation of M. Musculus master D. sayth muste needes be true or else Christ should reiect Princes Magistrates emongst both Christians other I haue shewed how it doth not follow that because he forbiddeth y rule vnto the ministers therfore he forbiddeth it simply and altogether no more then the law which forbiddeth that any stranger should be king of the realme for biddeth therefore that there shoulde be no king of the realme VVhereas you say maister Musculus teacheth how he ought to rule which ruleth what he ought to be I haue tolde you before other thinke otherwise and therefore you hauing
many meete and where be the examples of the olde church which had besydes the temple at Ierusalem erected vppe synagogues in euery towne to heare the worde of God and mynister the cyrcumcysion what is become of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ whych * wylled his discyples that they should preache openly and vpon the house toppes that which they heard in the eare of hym and secreately and howe doe we obserue the example of our sauyour Christ who to delyuer hys doctryne from all suspytion of tumultes and other dysorders sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the synagogues albeit the same were very daungerous vnto hym the example of the * Apostles that dyd the same For as for the tyme of persecution when the church dare not nor is not meete that it should shewe it selfe to the ennemy no not then is the word of God nor the sacraments priuately preached or ministred neyther yet ought to be For althoughe they be done in the house of priuate man yet because they are ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation there is neyther priuate preaching nor priuate baptisme For like as where so euer the Queenes maiestie lyeth there is the Courte althoughe it be in a Gentleman hys house so wheresoeuer the churche meeteth that place is not to be holden priuate as touching the prayers preachings and sacraments that shal be there ministred So that I denye vnto you that the churche hathe power to ordaine at her pleasure whether preaching or ministring of sacramentes should be priuate or publicke when they ought not to be but where the church is and the church ought not to assemble if it be not letted by persecution but in open places And when it is driuen from them those places where it gathereth it selfe togither although they be otherwise priuate yet are they for the time that the churches doe there assemble and for respect of the worde and sacraments that are there ministred in the presence of the church publike places And so you see those whome you charge slaunderously wyth conuenticles are faine to glase vp the windowes that you open to secreate and priuate conuenticles The Answere from Nowe if either godly councels vnto I trust M. Caluins iudgement will weigh HEere are brought in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and councels as dumme persons in the stage only to make a shewe and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strength of hys cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustin whych was a great time after them And if the godly councels coulde haue helped heere it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of mē the credite of many is better then of one and that thys is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is loked vnto in a matter of debate more then theirs of the common sorte so the iudgement of a councell where many learned men be gathered together caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it then the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall councell much more then if it be a generall and therfore you do your cause great iniurie if you could alledge them and do not Thys is once to be obserued of the reader throughout your whole boke that you haue well prouided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures for that onles it be in one or two poynts we heare continually instead of Esay and Ieremy S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles S. Augustin and S. Ambrose kai to en te phake myron Dionysius Areopagita Clement c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures who in the controuersies whych rise amongst our selues flie so farre from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if thys be a sufficient proofe of things to say suche a Doctor sayde so suche a councell decreed so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faith may be shaken And therfore because you haue no proofe in the worde of God we comfort our selues assured that for so muche as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things which are in question be not in heauen that they wil fall and come to the ground from whence they were taken Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe and that they are of men and not of God The answearer goeth about to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtained yet he may well know that it is no good argument to proue that they are good For as the best earth bringeth forth weedes so do the best men bring forth lies and errors But let vs heare what is brought that if thys visarde and shewe of truthe be taken away all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against any thing whych we hold for thys that the church may haue thyngs not expressed in the scripture is not againste that it oughte to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the scripture whych are not by plaine termes expressed in the scripture But against you it maketh muche ouerturneth all your building in this boke For if in those things whych are not expressed in the scripture that is to be obserued of the Church whych is the custome of the people of God and decree of oure forefathers then howe can these things be varyed according to time place persons whych you say should be when as that is to be retained which the people of God hath vsed the decrees of the forefathers haue ordained And thē also how can we do safelier then to folow the apostles customes and the churches in their time which we are sure are our for fathers the people of god Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I wil not enter now to discus whether it were wel done to fast in al places according to the custome of the place
You oppose Amb. Aug. I could oppose Ignatius and Tertullian wherof the one saith it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other the it is to kil the Lord this is the inconuenience that cometh of such vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose sayth so therfore it is true And although Amb. and Aug. being straungers and priuate men at Rome wold haue so done yet it foloweth not that if they had ben citizens ministers there y they wold haue don it if they had don so to yet it foloweth not but they would haue spoken against the appoyntment of dayes nomothesian of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of that which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting whē as the one sayth it was remedy or reward to fast other dayes but in Lent not to fast was sinne and the other asketh what saluation we can obtaine if we blot not our sinnes by fasting seing that the scripture sayth the fasting almes doth deliuer from sin therfore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting Which I therfore recite because you would seme by Aug. Ambrose iudgements to alow of the weekely and commanded fasts What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium 118. I can not tell you charge the authors of the admonition to be conspired with the papistes I will not charge you so but wil thinke better of you vntil the contrary do more appeare But I appeale to the iudgement of all men if this be not to bring in popery again to allow of s Aug. saying wherin he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passion c. is either of some generall councel or of the Apostles commaūded decreed wherby a gate is opē vnto the papists to bring in vnder the coloure of traditions all their beggery whatsoeuer For you plainly confirme that there is some thing necessary to be obserued which is not contained any wayes in the scripture For to keepe those holy dayes is not contained in the scripture neither can be concluded of any part therof and yet they are necessary to be kept if they be commaunded of the Apostles Therefore in your opinion some thing is necessary to be kept which is not contained in the scriptures nor can not be concluded of them And if you say that S. Aug. leaueth it in dout whether it were the Apostles tradition statute or a generall councels then you bring vs yet to a worse point that we can not be assured of the which is necessary for vs to knowe that is whether the Apostles did ordaine that these dayes should be kept as holy dayes or the coūcels And that it is S. Augustins meaning to father such like things of the Apostles it maye appeare by that whych he wryteth saying There are many things whych the whole churche holdeth and therfore are well beleued to be commaunded of the Apostles although they be not founde wrytten If thys iudgement of s Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde then there be some things commaunded of God which are not in the scriptures therfore there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures wherby we may be saued For al the commaundements of God of the apostles are nedeful for our saluation And marke I pray you whether your affections cary you before you sayd that the Lords day which was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time may be chaūged as the place and houre of prayer but the day of the passion resurrection c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the apostles or at least put vpon vs a necessity of keping of them least haply in breaking of them we might breake the Apostles decree for you make it to lie betweene the councels and the apostles which of them decreed this And do you not perceiue how you stil reason against your self for if the church haue had so great regard to that which the apostles did in their times that they kept those things which are not wryttē and therfore are doutfull whether euer they vsed them or no how much more should we hold our selues to these things whych are wrytten that they did and of the whych we are assured As touching the obseruation of these holy dayes I will refer the reader vnto an other place where occasion is geuen againe to speake of them As for that rule y he geueth when he sayth whatsoeuer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receiue them with hys owne interpretation whych he hath afterward in 119. epist. ad Ianuarium which is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules whych you saye are worthye to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whit for I knowe no man that euer denyed but that the churche may in suche things as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules whych I haue before alledged out of S. Paule And as for the second of the three rules I can not at any hand allow it For when all christianitie was ouer runne wyth Poperie thyngs were vniuersally obserued whych to kepe were mere wickednes and thys strengtheneth the papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not enough because it must be grounded by the scripture and that it is wicked to geue such authority to any decree of men that a man should not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he ment nothing les For affirming that suche thyngs are the Apostles commaundements hys meaning was that they should be wythout all exception receiued and absolutely How much better is it that we take heede to the words of the Apostle then either to S. Augustins or yours whych sayth that if he or an angel from heauen should preach any other gospell then that whych he had preached that they should hold hym accursed he sayth not any contrary or repugnant doctrine but any other gospell But tel me why passed you by that in Augustin which he * wryteth to Iunuarie that those thyngs whych are not contained in the scripture nor decreed of coūcelles nor confirmed by generall customes but are varied by the manners of regions and of men vpon occasion offered ought to be cutte of although they seeme not to be against faith because they pres wyth seruile burdens the religion whych Christ would haue free Thys sentence belike was to hotte for you you coulde not cary it The rest whose names you recite whych you saye you leaue of for breuitie sake I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider wherfore they be left out seeing that Augustin in whom you put so great trust answereth so little to your expectation
manner of place they should haue where was pulpittes commaunded or chaires and yet they had both Where any forme of buriall in the law and yet it is a thing pertaining to the church that the deade be after a comely sorte buried Where any order or forme of mariage and yet it is knowne they had It was whych is more in the discretion of that churche vppon occasion of dearthe or warre plagues or any other common calamitie to proclaime a faste I wil not be long where as you say that they had nothing but was determined by the law and we haue many things vndetermined and left to the order of the churche I will offer for one that you shall bring that we haue left to the order of the church to shew you that they had twentie whych were vndecided of by the expres word of god For as their ceremonies and sacraments are multiplied aboue oures so grewe the nomber of those cases whych were not determined by any expres worde and therefore ▪ I will conclude that for so muche as we haue the same lawes to directe vs in the seruice of God whych they had beside that a noble addition of the newe Testament to make things more manifest and to bring greater light vnto the olde Testament we haue also precise direction of our religion as they had and therfore those places of Deuter. stand in as greate force nowe touching the gouernment of the church as they did then And as for the iudiciall lawe for as muche as there are some of them made in regarde of the region where they were geuen and of the people to whom they were giuen the Prince and Magistrate keping the substance equitie of them as it were the marrow may chaunge the circumstances of them as the times and places and manners of the people shall require But to say that any magistrate can saue the life of blasphemers contemptuous and stubborne Idolaters murderers adulterers incestuous persons and suche like whych God by hys iudiciall lawe hath commaunded to be put to death I doe vtterly denye and am ready to proue if that pertained to thys question And therfore althoughe the iudiciall lawes are permitted to the discretion of the prince and magistrate yet not so generally as you seeme to affirme and as I haue oftentimes sayde that not only it must not be done against the word but according to the worde and by it After you define what is it to take from put to the word of God wherin not to speake of your wonderfull dexteritie in defining whych can define two things and those contrary putting to and taking fro with one differēce which zeno him selfe could neuer do you leaue out that whych Moses especially meant to comprehend whych is not to do more nor to do les thē he hath cōmaunded And as for your deuision it hath as euil succes here as in other places for when it is a great fault in deuiding to haue eyther too muche or too little you faulte in bothe for whereas you say they adde whych teache or decree c. besides that you leaue out whych Moses ment you forget also that whych your selfe hadde sayd which had placed adding to not only in teaching and decreeing but in thinking or beleeuing And wheras you make foure partes of your deuision the three last are found to be all vnder the first member whych is to make things of fayth and ceremonies contrary to the worde and so your deuision is not only faultye but no diuision at all The whych thing I could haue easely forgeuen you and passed by as a thing not very commendable to trauaile to shewe the pouertye of those things whych doe sufficiently of them selues as it were proclaime their owne shame but that it greeued me to see a boke lengthened wyth first second thirde last as thoughe euery one of them contained some notable newe matter whych needed an Oyes before it to stirre vp the attention of the reader when there is nothing but a many of words wythout matter as it were a sort of faire emptie Apothecaries boxes wythout any stuffe in them And for that you are so hard wyth other men for their Logike I will desire the reader to pardone me if I pursue these things more narowlyer then some peraduenture will lyke of or I my selfe delight in And so for any definition or diuision that I cā perceiue it standeth fast that nothing is to be done in the church of God but by hys commaundement and worde directing the same It is true in deede if they be not against the word of God and be profitable for the church they are to be receiued as those thyngs whych God by the church dothe commaunde and as grounded of the word of God but there is the question and therefore you taking this as a thyng graunted alwayes do alwayes fal into that whych you charge other with of the fallation of petitio principii To that in the. 34. and. 35. page VVHere in effect doe they say that the church of Englande is boide of preaching and ministring of the sacraments is it all one to say that the word in the church of England is not purely preached and the sacraments sincerely and discipline seuerely administred wyth this that the churche of England is voyde of all these Againe where do they reason thus that the worde of God is not truely preached because the ministers are not rightly proued elected when as they haue not one worde of true preaching is it all one to say it is not purely preached to say it is not truely preached S. Paul is glad that the gospel be preached although it be not purely but he wold neuer haue bene glad y it shuld haue ben preached falsly or not truly Again he inueyeth not against the false Apostles in the church of Corinth because they preached the word vntruely but because they vsing paynted wordes and affected eloquence and making a great shew of learning and tounges dyd not preache the Gospell sincerely So that you see that it is one thing not to preache truely and an other not to preache purely and you see their reason is not so euill for the want of a good calling may geue occasion to say that the word of God is not sincerely taught because there is not a lawful and ordynary calling For although for the substance of doctryne and the manner of handling of it they that S. Paul speaketh of to the Phillip dyd no fault yet S. Paul sayth that they dyd not preach purely because they dyd it of contention or of eniue which was no fault in the doctryne but in hym that taught Therefore let men iudge how iust your waights are that expounde not purely not truely and whether thys be to confute other mens arguments rather then to skirmishe wyth your owne shadowes I know no papistes reason thus that because we haue no ministers therfore no word no sacraments no
experience teacheth it you neede not make it so strange as though you knew not what they meant To the next section beginning in the. 38. page WHat ought to be generall if thys ought not to put the minister that hathe bene an idolater from hys mynisterie is it not a commaūdement of God and geuen not of one Leuite or two but of all those that went backe not at one tyme but at others also when the like occasion was geuen as appeareth in the booke of Kings where all the priestes of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places were not suffered to come to the altare in Ierusalem Doth not S. Paul make smaller causes of deposing from the mynistery then idolatrie for after he hath described what manner of men the ministers should be and deacons he addeth And being tryed let them execute their functions as long as they remayne blamelesse I thinke if so be a man had bene knowne to be an adulterer although he repented him yet none that is well aduised would take him into the ministerie For if S. Paul reiect him that had ij wyues at once which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull and that was common amongst them and had preuayled throughout all the world how much les would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie which should be an adulterer and haue an other mans wyfe which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ and which is not so generall a mischeefe as that was Or would he suffer him to abyde in the ministerie which should commit such wickednes during his function lykewyse of a murtherer Now the sinne of Idolatry is greater more detestable then any of them in as much as pertayning to the first table it immediatly stayneth Gods honor and breaketh duetie to him vnto whom we more owe it without all comparison then to any mortall man And if S. Paul in the choyse of the widow to attende vpon the sicke of the church which was the lowest office in the church requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise honest and holy but such a one as hath led her whole life in all good workes and with commendation how much more is that to be obserued in the minister or byshop of the church that he be not only at the tyme of his choyse but all other times before such a one as hath lyued without any notable and open offence of those amongst whome he had his conuersation If I should stand with you whether Peter his forswearing that he knew not Christ were a greater fault then to go from the gospell to idolatrie and there in for some long space to continue as the Leuites dyd I shoulde trouble you For if a man sodenly and at a push for feare and to saue his life say and sweare he is no christian and the same day repent him of hys fault although it be a great and haynous cryme yet it seemeth not to be so great as his is which not only denyeth Christ in words but doth it also in deedes and worshippeth Antichrist and continueth in that worship not a day but moneths and yeares But I wil answere you that euen as our sauiour Christ called S. Paule in the heate of his persecution whē he was a blasphemer vnto the Apostleship so he hauing the law in his owne handes and making no lawes for him selfe but for vs might call S. Peter also to that function which had thrise denyed him But as it is not lawfull for vs to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paul by admitting those which are new conuerted hauing a contrary precept geuen that no * new plant or greene christian should be taken to the mynisterie So is it not lawfull to follow that example of our sauiour Christ the contrary being commaunded as I haue before alledged For albeit the examples of our sauiour Christ be to be followed of vs yet if there be commaundementes generall to the contrary then we must know that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way as it were the common caussie of the commaundement rather then an outpathe of the example I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisme to be bishop of Millaine for the great estimatiō credite he had amongst the people but besides that I haue shewed that suche thinges are vnlawfull being forbidden The errors and corrupt expounding of scriptures which are founde in his workes declare that it had bene more safe for the churche if by studie of the scriptures he hadde first bene a scholer of dyuinitie or euer he hadde beene made doctor There may be more examples shewed out of that which you call the prymitiue churche to the contrary of that which you say For when they vsed often tymes agaynste those that hadde so falne suche seueritie in deede extreme and excessiue that they were neuer after vntill their deathes admitted to the Lordes table I leaue to you to thinke whether they woulde then suffer any suche to execute the function of the ministerie Besides that S. Cyprian hath also a speciall treatise of thys that those that haue sacrificed to idolles should not be permitted any more to minister in the church But you aske what they say to M. Luther Bucer Crannier Latimer Ridley I pray you when dyd these excellent personages euer slide from the gospell vnto idolatrie which of them dyd euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so blynded you that you can not distinguishe and put a difference betweene one that hauing bene nousled from hys youthe vp in idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betweene hym which hauing knowledge of the gospell afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I know none that haue beene preachers of the gospell and after in the time of Queene Mary malsemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers and if there be any suche I thincke for offence sake the Church might better be without them then haue them You say God in that place sheweth how greuous a sinne idolatrie is in the priestes especially And is it not now more greuous in the mynister of the gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater And if the sinne be greater should it haue now a lesse punishment then it had then how shall the fault be esteemed great or little but by the greatnes or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lord commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And thys commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for oures You worke a sure way which to mayntayne your corruptions deny the scripture which speaketh agaynst them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time
and that to be vnderstanded of our ministers which was of theirs or of our faultes which was of theirs Thys is not the way to Anabaptisme but to all heresies and schismes that euer haue bene or shall be For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture as you begin you will leaue vs nothing in the ende wherewith we may eyther defend our selues agaynst heretikes or be able to strike at them Whereas you say there is a great difference betweene the seueritie of the law and lenitie of the gospell me thinkes I smell a spice of the error of the Maniches which were also schollers in that behalfe of the olde hereticke Cerdon that there is a good and an euill a gentle and a seuere God one vnder the law and an other vnder the gospell For to saye that God was then a seuere punysher of sinne and that now he is not at so great hatred wyth it but that he will haue it gentlyer and softlyer dealt with is euen all one in effect with that which supposeth two Goddes I will ioyne with you in it that the transgressyons of the law in the tyme of the gospell oughte rather to be seuerelyer punyshed then they were vnder the law for as muche as the knowledge is greater and the aboundance of the spirite of God whereby the lawes are kept is more plentifull then vnder the lawe At this tyme I will content me with the place of Zach. which prophesying of the kingdome of Christe and of the tyme of the gospell sayth that then the father and mother of the false Prophet shall cause theyr owne sonne to bee put to deathe It is as absurde which is brought to proue that the papistes whiche worshippe God falsly doe not faulte so haynously as the Israelites dyd which worshipped the Idolles As who shoulde saye the Iewes or any other the grossest idolaters that euer were dyd euer take those thinges which they worshipped Serpentes Oxen Fire Water c. to be God or knew not the Images before which they fell downe were Woode or Stone Siluer and Gold. And who knoweth not that they thought that they worshipped by them and in them the God which made heauen earth The Iewes when they molted a golden calfe and fell downe before it did neuer thinke that to be God * but sayde that they wold kepe holy day to the Lord Iehouah Wherein I will put you ouer to the learned treatises of the godly new wryters which do refute this distinction being brought of the papistes as a shift to proue that the Idolatrie which is forbidden in the olde Testament toucheth not them because they worship God by these things and the idolatrous Iewes and infidels worshipped nothing else nor loked at nothing else thē the bare things before which they fell down Which selfe same distinction you bring to proue that papistrie is not so detestable as the idolatrie of the Iewes It may be that certayne of the Gentiles worshipped by their images Iupiter and Iuno c. but you can not shew that the Israelites euer worshipped any other God then the true God so that their fault was only in that they worshipped him otherwise then he had appoynted And the Gentiles that worshipped many Gods worshipped one as the head and cheefe and the rest as small companions and as they termed them minorum gentium deos as the papistes doe God as the cheefe and the sainctes as other petie gods And here all men may see what a good proctor you be for the papistes bothe in lestning their faultes and abating their punishments and yet will not I saye that you are conspired with them or haue receiued your see of them But if you can shew where or in what one poynt those that you charge with confederacie haue layde so softe pillowes vnder their heades as these are they refuse not to be called confederate and conspired with the papistes To the next section in the. 40. page WHat should become of the people in the meane season whilest they learne their Catechisme and when they haue learned it they are no more fitte to be Ministers and to teach other then he that hath learned his Accidence is meete to set vp a schole And it can not be defended but it was a grosse ouer sight to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme It were much to compel them to read it And if a man would haue declamed agaynst the ignoraunce of the most part of the ministers three whole dayes together he could not haue sayde more against them then that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion How know you that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision being also placed there But how followeth this it is meete that ministers shoulde learne euerye day therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Cathechismes it is meete they shoulde reade Cathechismes therefore meete to learne them and be enioyned to learne them is there nothing worthyer the learning and profession of the minister then to learne Cathechismes or dothe a manne learne those thinges alwayes which he readeth dothe he not reade thinges some tyme to record the things that he hath learned For because they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Cathechisme you conclude of their wordes that they would not haue a minister to learne or to reade any thing which is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther as you are from the reasonable and vpright expounding of them To the two next sections in the. 41. and. 42. page IT hath bene likewise shewed what was in that election extraordinarie and what pertayneth to the ordinarie callings And in the .vj. of the Actes it was shewed that if the Deacons shoulde not be thrust vppon the congregation agaynst the will of it muche lesse ought the minister And if that congregation had by the commaundement of the Apostles an interest in the choyse of their gouernoures I see not why the same commaundement remayneth not to be followed of other churches Your reasons wherewith you would make difference shal be after considered The Answere to the next section being the 43. page and vntill I adde which is in the 44. page VNto these places of the first and sixthe of the Actes is added first the place of the fourtenth of the Actes where the authors of the admonition do proue that the election ought not to be in one man hys hand but ought to be made by the churche agaynst which M. Doctor taketh three exceptions The first is for that it is sayde that Paule and Barnabas ordayned Elders whereby he would conclude that the congregations had nothing to doe But how siender a reason that is it may be considered of infinite
places in the scripture whereof I will recite two or three In the fifthe Chapter of Iosua it is sayde that Iosua made him sharpe kniues for the circumcising of the children of Israell and a little after that Iosua circumcised them Shall we now vppon these wordes conclude that Iosua dyd make the kniues himselfe or was a cutler or being made to hys hande dyd whet them and sharpen them or shall we say that he dyd circumcise the children of Israell in his owne person and hym selfe alone when as that was done by many and by the Leuites to whome that offyce appertayned no but the scripture declareth that Iosua procured sharpe kniues to be made and exhorted and commaunded the people to be circumcised In Exodus it is sayde that Moses dyd appoynt vnto the people Princes Captayne 's ouer thousandes and hundrethes c. And if any conclude thereuppon that hee dyd it him selfe alone hee is by and by confuted by that whiche is wrytten in Deuteronomie where it appeareth that the people dyd chuse them and presented them to Moises What is it then that is sayde in Exodus that Moises appoynted them but that Moyses assembled the people and exhorted them to appoynt rulers and tolde them what manner of men they should be and in a worde sate as it were moderatour in that election To come to the newe Testament In the Actes it is sayde that Paule and Timothe delyuered vnto the churches the orders and decrees of the Apostles and elders and yet it appeareth in another place that the Church had also to doe and gaue their consent vnto the making of those decrees so that the former place meaneth that the Apostles and Elders dyd goe before and were the cheefe and directors of that action The same manner of speach is vsed of the Romane stories wherein it is sayd that the Consull dyd make Magistrates for because that he gathered the assembly and voyces whereby they were made and so S. Luke sayth heere that Paul and Barnabas ordayned because they being the moderators of the Election caused it to be made assembled the churches tolde them of the necessitie of hauing good pastors and gouernors gathered the voices tooke heede that nothing should be done lightly nothing tumultuously or out of order And so to conclude it is an euill reason to say as M. Doctor doth that because S. Luke hath that Paule and Barnabas ordayned therefore the people were excluded And I maruell with what conscience he coulde answere so in thys place especially where it is forthwith added that they ordayned them by the suffrages and voices of the church But you say that the Greeke worde cheirotonein is by the common opinion of almost all Ecclesiasticall writers vsed in the scripture for the solemne maner of ordaining of ministers by the imposition of hands which is the second exception you take to this reason Wherin but that I haue promised to holde my selfe to the matter and that these bolde asseuerances in matters most vntrue are so common that if I should euery fote pursue them I should weary my selfe and all others I coulde not keepe my selfe from running out to maruell at such high speaches voide of truthe First where you say that some translation hath that they ordained ministers wythout making mention of election what haue you gained therby when I can shew mo that translate it otherwise and say it is that they ordained by election or voices or suffrages I had not the commoditye of bookes wherby I coulde see the iudgement of all Ecclesiasticall wryters But of those whych I had I finde that there was but one only M. Gualter of that minde and yet he dothe not shut out the peoples consent in the election Master Caluin M. Beza M. Bullinger M. Musculus M. Brentius he that translated Chrysostome vppon that place Erasmus in his Paraphrases vpon that place are of the contrary iudgement of whose iudgement I would not haue spoken if you woulde not haue gone about thus to abuse youre reader wyth suche manifest vntruthes to ouerthrow the order which God hath established But let all authorities of men go and let vs examine the thing in it self If so be that the holy ghust had ment the solemne putting on of the handes vpon the heades of him that was created elder and minister had he not words enough to vtter this hys meaning would he haue for laying on of hands vsed a word that signifieth lifting vp of hands would he haue vsed a word signifying holding vp for laying downe for when the hands are layd of the head of an other they are layd downe and not holden vp There are words in the olde Testament and in the newe before S. Luke wrote and after he wrote to expres thys ceremony of laying on of hands and yet none haue euer expressed thys S. Paule speaketh thrise of it in his Epistles to Timothe and alwayes he vseth epithesis ton cheiron In the old Testament where thys ceremonie is vsed and spoken of the Septuaginta did neuer translate cheirotonein But as the wryters of the newe Testament epithesis cheiron And what should I stande in thys when as S. Luke him selfe bothe before and after speaking of that ceremony of laying on of hands doth neuer vse this word cheirotonein but the same word whych s Paule vseth and the Septuaginta and although the holy ghost speake properly and wel by whomsoeuer he speaketh yet it could haue ben worst of all sayd by S. Luke of all the Canonicall wryters that he should speake thus vnproperly who of them all wryteth moste purely and elegantly according to the phrase of the moste eloquent Grecians and therfore he borowed this speache of the auncient Greeke wryters whych did vse to expres their elections by thys worde because they were made and voyces geuen by thys Ceremonie of lifting vp of handes But what if S. Luke haue vsed thys worde before and in thys booke in the signification of chusing by voyce dare you then say that he vseth it heere for putting on of hands In the Actes S. Peter sayeth that Christ after hys resurrection appeared not vnto the whole people but vnto those whom he had before chosen by his voyce to be hys witnesses he vseth thys word procecheirotonemenous Nowe if you will say heere that it is to be turned those of whome he layd his handes I will aske you where you read that euer he layd his handes of their heads I will shewe you where he did by hys heauenly voyce appoynt thē And I thinke you are not able to shew in any Greeke author auncient which men do take to be autenticall to teache the propertie or eloquence of the Greeke tongue I meane which were before S. Luke his time where the worde cheirotonein is taken for the laying on of hands of the head of any Thys I confesse that the Greeke Ecclesiasticall wryters haue sometimes vsed it so but you
muste remember that S. Luke coulde not learne to speake of them that came two or three hundreth yeares after him but he borrowed thys phrase of speache of those that were before him and therfore speaketh of elections as they did So that you see thys shift will not serue Let vs therfore see your third whych is that although the Churches consent was then required yet is it not nowe and that it is no general rule no more then say you that all things should be therfore common now because they were in the Apostles time The authors of the Admonition wyth their fauourers muste be counted Anabaptists no one word being shewed whych tendeth thervnto you must accuse them whych confirme that foundation whereof they build their communitie of all things whych is one of their cheefe heresies If I shoulde saye nowe that you are like to those that rowe in a boate whych although they loke backwards yet they thrust a nother way I should speake with more likelihode thē you haue done For althoughe you make a countenaunce and speake hotely against Anabaptistes yet in deede you strengthen their handes wyth reasons But I will not say so neither doe I thinke that you fauoure that secte but only the whirlewinde and tempest of your affection bent to maintaine this estate whereby you haue so great honoure and wealth driueth you vpon these rocks to wracke your selfe on and others For I pray you what communitie is spoken of either in the second thirde or fourth of the Actes whych ought not to be in the church as long as the world standeth was there any communitie but as touching the vse and so farre for the as the pore brethren had neede of and not to take euery man a like was it not in any man his power to sell his houses or landes or not to sell them When he had solde them was it not in euery man his libertie to keepe the money to hymselfe at his pleasure and all they that were of the Church did not sell their possessions but those whose heartes the Lord touched singularly wyth the compassion of the neede of others and whome God had blessed wyth aboundance that they had to serue them selues and helpe others and therefore it is reckened as a rare example that * Barnabas the Cyprian and Leuite did sel hys possessions and brought the price to the feete of the Apostles And as for Ananias Saphira they were not punished for because they brought not the price of their possessions to the Apostles but because they lyed saying that they had brought the whole when they had brought but parte And to be shorte is there any more done there then S. Paule prescribeth to the Corinthians and in them to all churches to the worldes end After he had exhorted to liberalitie towardes the pore churche in Ierusalem not sayth he that other should be releeued and you oppressed but vpon like condition at this time your aboundance supplieth their lacke that also their aboundance maye be for youre lacke that there might be equalitie as it is wrytten he that gathered much had nothing ouer and he that gathered little had not the les Surely it were better you were no Doctor in the Churche then that the Anabaptistes should haue suche holde to bring in their communitie as you geue them In summe the Apostolike communitie or the Churches in their time was not Anabaptisticall Vnto the place of the seconde Epistle to the Corinthians and. 8. chapter you aske what maketh that to the election of the ministers but why doe not you say heere as you did in the other place that the apostle meaneth nothing els but the putting on of the handes of them whych ordained for the same worde cheirotonetheis is heere vsed that was there and this place dothe manifestly and wythout all contradiction conuince your vaine signification that you make of it in the other place and the vntruthe saying that the scripture vseth thys woorde for a solemne manner of ordering ministers by putting on of handes For heere it is sayde that he that was ioyned wyth Paule was cheirotonetheis by the church and it is manifest that the imposition of hands was not by the church people but by the elders and ministers as it appeareth in s Paule to Timothe Now to come to that which you make so light of for say you how foloweth this the church chose Luke or Barnabas to be cōpanion of Paule his iourney Ergo the churches must chuse their ministers It followeth very well for if it were thought◠meete that Saynte Paule shoulde not chuse hym selfe of hys owne authoritie a companion to helpe hym being an Apostle is there any archbyshoppe that shall dare take vppon him to make a minister of the gospell being so many degrees bothe in authoritie and in all giftes needefull to discerne and trye oute or take knowledge of a sufficient minister of the gospell inferioure to S. Paule And if S. Paule woulde haue the authoritye of the churche to ordaine the Minister that shoulde ayde hym in other places for the gathering of reliefe of the poore Churches howe muche more did he thincke it meete that the Churches shoulde chuse their owne Minister whych should gouerne them Which things may be also sayde of the election in the first of the Actes for there the Churche firste chose two whereof one shoulde be an Apostle whych shoulde not be Minister of that Church but should be sent into all the world So that alwayes the Apostles haue shunned to do any thing of their owne willes without the knowledge eyther of those churches where they instituted any gouernors or if it were for the behofe of those places where there were no churches gathered yet would they ordaine none but by the consent of some other churche whych was already established You will not deny but that in the Apostles time and S. Cyprians time in many places the consent of the people was required shewe any one place where it was not Dothe not S. Luke say that it was done churche by churche that is in euery churche And where you say it endured but to S. Cyprians time it shall appeare to all men that it endured in the churche a thousande yeare and more after hys time And it appeareth in that he vsed it not as a thing indifferent but necessary and argueth the necessitye of it of the place of the first of the Acts which is alleaged by the authors of the Admonition and so they are not their argumentes that you throwe vp so scornefully saying how followeth this and this what proueth it but Cyprians whome by their sides you thrust throughe and so vnreuerently handle But you say these examples are no generall rules Examples of all the Apostles in all churches and in all purer times vncontrolied and vnretracted eyther by any the primitiue and purer churches or by any rule of the scripture I thinke ought to stand If
hand as fast as you builde with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothe I saye first that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe and therefore instructeth hym what he should do for his parte in the appoynting of the minister If he had written to the whole Churche of Ephesus he would lykewise haue instructed them how they should haue behaued thē selues in that businesse If one do wryte vnto hys frende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he chuse none but such as are meete shall any man conclude therupon that none hath to doe in that election but he to whom that letter is writtē Then I say further that S. Paule attributeth that vnto Timothe that was common to moe with hym because he being the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe which thing I haue proued by dyuers examples both out of the scripture and otherwise before And euen in this imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that where as S. Paule sayth in the 2. Epistle that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym in the first Epistle he sayth that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of the eldership So that that which he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth with moe And that he dyd it not him selfe alone it may appeare by those wordes which folow and communicate not with other mens sinnes as if he should saye if other will ordeyne insuffycient ministers yet be not thou caryed away with their example And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church and that he had no superioritie aboue his fellowes it may appeare for that he sayth lay thy hands rashly of none where if he had had authoritie ouer the rest he would rather haue sayd suffer none to lay his handes rashly Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betweene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that although this might agree to Timothe alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Bishop may do so For Timothe was an Euangelist which was aboue a Bishop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to say the greater may do it therfore the lesse may do it The superiour therfore the inferioure If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses you should not be so vnwise to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrisostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timothe to be circumspect If you meane to vse their testimonie to proue that he only made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothe for there is nothing there but agreeth also to thys place And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to proue that to the Bishop only doth belong the right of election of the minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it cā not be so taken of the sole election of the Bishop the church being shutte out If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe as it seemeth it ought seeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke is in the authorities of men which Aristotle calleth atechnas peiseis vncunning proofes I coulde sende you to maister Calum which teacheth that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byshoppes and ministers by hys owne authoritie when he hym selfe would not take so much vpon hym but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church But he peraduenture sauoureth not your tast and yet you woulde make men beleue sometimes that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted and racked in peeces from the rest to make good your part If hee weyghe not with you you haue maister Musculus whome you take to bee a great patrone of youres in thys cause which dothe with greater vehemencie affirme the same thing that mayster Caluin sayth asking whether any man can beleeue that Paisle permitted in thys place to Titus or in the place before alledged to Timothe that they shoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie and by them selues when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche In the ende you say it is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it belongeth to the byshop to chuse the minister Because you acquaint my eares with such bolde and vntrue affirmations I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your selfe as though you had all the fathers by heart and caryed them about with you wheresoeuer you went whereas if a man woulde measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them Are all the learned fathers of that mynde I thinke then you would haue bene better aduised then to haue sette downe but one when as you know a matter in controuersie will not be tryed but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lord speake hym selfe and therefore you geue me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one you know of no more now let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in thys matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely then simply in that you haue altered Ieromes wordes For where hee sayeth wherein doth a byshoppe differ from an elder but only in ordayning you say a byshop doth excell all other mynisters c. I report me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Ieromes hys sentēce because you wold not let the reader vnderstand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes bishops in his dayes betwene our Lord Bishoppes For then the byshop had nothing aboue an elder or other minister but only the ordayning of the minister Now he hath a thousande parishes where the minister hath but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the bishop now excommunicateth which the minister can not absolueth or receyueth into the church which the minister can not Besides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byshop doth and which neither byshop nor other minister ought to doe I say I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an euill argument to saye the byshop had the ordayning of the minister Ergo he had the election of hym the contrary rather is a good argument the byshop had the ordayning of the minister therefore he had not the election of hym For ordination
and election are dyuers members of one whole which is the placing of the pastor in hys church and one member can not be verified of an other as you can not say your foote is your hand I will not deny but that sometimes these wordes maye bee founde confounded in Ecclesiasticall wryters but I will shewe you also that they are distinguished and that the election pertayneth to the people and ordayning vnto the Byshop Vpon the sixte of the Actes the glose hath that that which was done there of the xij Apostles in willing the brethren to loke out fitte men was done to geue vs example muste be obserued in those that are ordayned For sayth the glose the people must chuse and the Byshoppe must ordayne And that S. Ierome must be so vnderstanded it appeareth not only that it hath beene so expounded but also it may be casely proued for that S. Ieromes sentence and iudgement appeareth in other places that he woulde haue nothing heere done with out the people as in his Epistle ad Rusticum monachum he willeth that the people shoulde haue power and authoritie to chuse their clarkes and their ministers and in hys Epistle to Neopotian of the lyfe of the clarkes he hath thys distinction manifestly They runne sayth he vnto the Bishoppes suffragans certen times of the yeare and bringing some summe of money they are annoynted and ordayned being chosen of none and afterwarde the Bishoppe without any lawfull election is chosen in hugger mugger of the Canons or Prebendaries only without the knowledge of the people And so you see that although y S. Ierome sayeth that the Byshop had the ordayning of the ministers yet he had not the election for the ordayning was nothing else but an approuing of the election by putting on of handes and consequently hauing made your vaunt that all the learned fathers were of thys iudgement that the Bishop should elect the minister you shew not so much as one Now will I shewe you the cleane contrary of that you saye not that I gladlye trauaile thys wayes for if you had not constrayned me you shoulde not haue hearde one voyce thys way And woulde to God that you woulde be content especially when you meete with those that will be tryed by the scriptures to seeke no farther strengthe then they geue you But I am lothe you shoulde oppresse the truthe and make all men afrayde of it by making them beleeue that it is so desolate and forsaken of her frendes as you pretende You confesse S. Cyprian is agaynste you herein and he was a learned father and a Martyr also whych dyd not only vse thys forme of election but also taught it to be necessary and commaunded and therefore me thincketh you shoulde not haue sayde all the learned fathers without exception You see also S. Ierome is of an other iudgement S. Augustine also when hee speaketh how hee appoynted Eradius to succeede hym sheweth howe it was the approued right and custome that the whole church shoulde eyther chuse or consent of their Bishoppe And * Ambrose sayeth that that is truely and certaynely a diuine election to the office of a byshop which is made of the whole church Eregorius Nazianzene in the Oration which he had at the death of hys father hath diuers things which proue that the election of the minister pertayned to the Churche and confuteth those thinges which should seeme to hinder it These were learned fathers and yet thought not that the election of the pastor or byshop pertayned to one man alone but that the church had also hir interest therefore you see all the learned fathers are not of that mynde you say they are And that thys election continued in the churche vntill within a three hundred yeares at what time there was more then Egyptiacall and palpable darcknesse ouer the face of the whole earth it may appeare in a Treatise of Flaccus Illirâ—cus whiche he calleth an addition vnto hys booke that he entituleth the Catalogue of the witnesses of truthe of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bene muche holpen in thys matter of the choyse of the church touching the ministers especially in the Emperoures Edictes which are before cited For lacking opportunities diuers wayes I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie for the more speedie furtheraunce and better proceeding in other matters which I will leaue of because they may be there red of those that be learned whome I will also referre to the sixe and seuen bookes of Eusebius wher both the formes of the electioÌ„s in those tymes are described wher besides that the customes of the peoples choise is set forth there are examples of the election of the people and cleargie which were confirmed by the christian Magistrate namely in the Byshop of Constantinople And these may suffice for the other that haue not that commoditie of bookes nor habilitie nor skill to reade them being in a straunge tongue to knowe that besides the institution of God in his worde thys manner of election dyd continue so long as there was any light of the knowledge of God in the churche of god I will adde only one place which if it be more bitter then the rest and cutte the quicke more neare you shall not bee angry with me but first with those that were the authors of it and then wyth him that wrote it Eusebius speaking of Origine which was admitted not of one Bishop but of many Byshoppes to teache sheweth how the Byshoppes were reprehended by the Byshoppe of Alexandria called Demetrius because they had admitted him without the election of the presbyterie of the churche which were the cheefe in the election in euery church and vnto the which the churches did committe the gouernment of them selues in euery seuerall towne and Citie sayth that it hath not beene hearde that laikous shoulde homilein paronton ton episcopon which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshoppes were present whereby it is euident that he counted hym a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that church wherof he was the teacher Seing then that the scripture doth teache thys order that there shoulde be no minister thrust vppon the churche but by the consent thereof and reason perswadeth that wayes and the vse of the churche hath beene so from time to time both in peace and in time of persecution bothe vnder tyrantes and godly Princes it can not be without the highe displeasure of almightie God the great hurte and sore oppression of the churche that one man shoulde take thys vnto hym which pertayneth to so many or one minister which pertayneth to more then one especially where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peoples election or consent Now if any man will rise vp and saye that this doctryne bringeth in disorder and by thys meanes children and boyes and
liues in honest conuersation when all that doctrine falleth to the groūd because they haue no knowledge of Christ nor of faith in him and to be short it is as much as if eyther the surgeon shoulde apply hys plaister or the Phisition his medicine when they neither know of the wounde or disease of their pacients But this knowledge of their estate can not be without a continuall abode amongst them therfore a continuall residence is necessary Moreouer as in the lawe the priestes were ready in the temple to answere all the doubtes and questions that any of the people shoulde come to aske so the ministers in their seuerall parishes shuld be ready to dissolue the difficulties that either one hathe wyth an other or wyth him selfe touching the conscience for want whereof the consciences of many after doubtfull and daungerous wrastling wyth the deuill and wyth despaire are strangled And thervpon some hang or drowne themselues some other putting away all care or conscience of sinning and labouring to haue no sense nor seeling of their sinne close vp the wound vnhealed whych after either breaketh oute more daungerously or else euery daye more and more waxing senseles and wythoute feeling treasure vp vnto them selues the wrath of God against the day of iudgement For although the iudgement of God dothe not for the time followe them so harde as them whyche throughe terror of conscience vntaughte and vncomforted kill them selues yet their estate is neuer the les daungerous therefore but rather more for as muche as by a longer line of sinne drawne out they also pull vpon them selues a heauier condemnation Whych things when they see oftentimes before their eyes that will consider it it is easie to iudge that it commeth to passe a great deale oftner then we can see When as therfore the only preaching of the worde of God being continuall is a bonde strong enoughe to holde the pastor to hys flocke Then the enquirie of the manners and behauioure of hys flocke the priuate admonitions and consolations the dissoluing of doubtes when anye riseth as a three or foure folde corde ought much more to holde him so that he whych shall breake all these thyngs willingly and wittingly can not easely be thoughte to breake them as Sampson did hys by the strengthe of God but rather by some other power not of god Besides that S. Paule commaundeth that the pastor shoulde be a paterne or example in all goodnes and holines of life vnto hys flocke and oure sauioure Christ * sayth that when the shepheard hath led forth hys shepe he goeth before them but if the pastoure be not amongst hys flocke and haue not hys conuersation there they can not followe hym If they haue not the example before their eyes they can not make the like vnto it Therefore this commaundement also bindeth them to residence amongste their flockes S. Peter willeth the pastors of the churches that they shuld feede the flockes What flockes not euery one but those whych are committed to their faithe or truste or whych dependeth vpon them And S. Paule speaking to the ministers or byshoppes of Ephesus willeth them that they should take heede vnto the flockes ouer the which the holy Ghoste had made them ouerseers where he restraineth as S. Peter did their ouersight and watche vnto their perticulare flocke S. Paule sayth that he toke it heauely that he was seperated from them but a small time if therfore the Apostle was away wyth greefe from them whome he had taught whome his calling compelled to be away from and would not suffer to be alwayes there what shall be thoughte of the pastors whose calling is to be wyth their flockes and whych are consecrated vnto them euen as the Apostles were vnto the whole worlde what I say shall be thought of them that are away moneths and yeres And in deede those that feede their flockes faithfully according to the commaundement of God do see what a great wisedom and mercy of God it is to appoynt euery flocke his pastor and euery pastor his flocke They can tell of a wonderfull loue that God worketh in them towardes their flockes and in their flockes towardes them A great encouragement vnto them and as it were a pricke to stirre vp their dulnes it is when they see the blessing of God vppon their labors and thereof a maruellous care and thoughte to turne all suche thyngs away as should hinder the encrease of that blessing which they can not haue any feeling or experience of whych are not conuersante wyth their flockes Besides this a familiaritie betweene the pastor and the flocke is profitable that they maye be emboldened to come and demaunde to be satisfyed of those thyngs they doubte of whych they will neuer doe vnto those whome they are not by continuall conuersation acquainted wyth And it is not nothing that Aristotle disputeth agaynste Plato his communitie which woulde haue all things common and that all men indifferently shoulde haue care of all things and shoulde haue nothing whych he should say to be hys owne For therein Aristotle sayd very well that that which was cared for of all men was neglected of all and cared for of none so that the preseruation of wife or children or of any other possession was then the best and surest when as euery man had a certaine possession committed vnto him which he should care for and take charge of And so the Lord his wisdome was for the better suretie and saluation of hys churche not to make many ministers whych should in common and indifferently take care of all but ordained that the church should be deuided into diuers partes and that euery one shoulde haue a peece to care for and to giue accompte for Nowe if any man will say that in suche great scarcitie of pastors it is good that when a man hath trauelled in one place and remoued them from superstition and brought them to beleue in God through Christ to goe to an other place and assay also to draw them from idolatrie First I vrge that whych I did before whych is the calling wherin euery man must abide and wythout y whych no man ought to attempt any thing Then I say that it is as hard a prouince as painfull a thing vnto the pastor as acceptable and precious a worke vnto the Lord to keepe those whych are gotten as to gette those whych are not gotten and that that saying is fulfilled heere if in any thing else Non minor est virtus quam quaerere parta tueri It is as great a vertue to kepe that whych is already gotten as to haue got it For we know that after that the deuill perceiueth that men are pulled out of the power of darknes into the glorious light of the gospel he sweateth and laboureth by a thousand meanes to destroy them bestirreth him selfe more then then in the time of their ignorance and in steade of that
things Dauid was a lawfull and godly magistrate and yet there slipt from him commaundementes whych were neither lawfull nor godly But he addeth that it is done for order and for decencie wythout superstition or suspition of it This is that whych is in controuersy and oughte to be proued and M. Doctor still taketh it as graunted and still faulteth in the petition of the principle wherwith he chargeth others The second reason is that they that weare thys apparell haue edified and do edify whych is as if a man would say the midwiues whych lied vnto Pharao did much good amongst the Israelites Ergo their lying did much good If he will say the comparison is not like because the one is not sinne in hys owne nature whereas the other is sinne then take thys One that stammereth and stutteth in his toÌ„g edifieth the people therfore stammering and stutting is good to edifie For what if the Lorde geue hys blessing vnto hys worde and to other good giftes whych he hath that preacheth and weareth a surplice c. Is it to be thought therfore that he liketh well of the wearing of that apparell This is to assigne the cause of a thing to that whych is not only not the cause thereof but some hinderance also and sâ—aking of that wherof it is supposed to be a cause For a man may rather reason that for as much as they which preache with surplice c. edify notwithstaÌ„ding that they therby driue away some and to other some giue â—â—spition of euill c. if they preached wythout wearing any suche thyng they should edify much more And yet if a man were assured to gaine a thousande by doing of that which may offend or cause to fall one brother he ought not to do it The third reason is that they which consent in wearing the surplices consent also in all other poynts of doctrine and they that do not weare it do not consent not so much as amongst them selues If this consent in the poynts of religion be in the surplice cope c. tel vs I beseche you whether in the matter or in y form or in what hid and vnknowne quality staÌ„deth it if it be in that the ministers vse all one apparell then it is maruell that this being so strong a bond to holde them togither in godly vnitie that it was neuer commauÌ„ded of Christ nor practised of prophets or apostles neuer of no other reformed churches I had thought wholy that those things which the lord appoynteth to maintaine kepe vnitie with especially the holy sacrameÌ„ts of baptisme of the lords supper had ben strong enough to haue first of all knit vs vnto the lord therfore also to his doctrine then one of vs to an other that the dissenting in such a ceremony as a surplice c. neither should nor could in those that pertaine vnto God breake the vnitie of the spirit whych is bouÌ„d wyth the bond of truth And although there be whych like not this apparell that thinke otherwise then either their brethren or then in dede they ought to do yet a man may finde greater dissent amongst those whych are vnited in surplice cope c. then there is amongst those which weare them not either with them selues or with them that weare them For how many there are that weare surplices which would be gladder to say a masse than to heare a sermon let all the world iudge And of those y do weare this apparel be otherwise wel minded to the gospel are ther not which wil wear the surplis not the cap other the wil weare both cap surplice but not the tippet yet a third sort the wil weare surplice cap tippet but not the cope It hath ben the maner alwayes of wise learned men to esteme of things by the causes not by the euent that especially in matters of religion for if they shuld be estemed of the euent who is there which wil not condemne the Israelites battell against Aye afterward against the Beniamites which notwithstanding the cause which was Gods wist and Gods commaundement iustifieth And therfore in a worde I answere the if there be such consent amongst those which like wel of this apparell and such iarres amongst those that like it not as M. doctor wold make the world beleue neither is the wearing of the surplice c. cause of the consent in them nor the not wearing cause of the disagrement in the other But as our knowledge loue is vnperfect here in this world so is our agrement consent of iudgemeÌ„t vnperfect And yet all these harde speaches of yours or vncharitable suspitions of papisme anabaptisme catharisine donatisme c. wherby you do as much as lieth in you to cut vs cleane of from you shal not be able so to estrange vs or seperate vs from you but that we wil by gods grace hold what so euer you hold well kepe that vnitie of spirit which is the bond of truth eueÌ„ with you M. doctor whom we suppose as appeareth by this your boke to haue set your selfe further from vs then numbers of those which although they be content to receiue the apparel beare with things yet wold haue ben loth to haue set downe the against the sinceritie of the gospel hinderance of reformation which you haue done The white apparell which is a note true representation of the glory purenes in the angels shuld be a lying signe preteÌ„ce of that which is not in the ministers which are miserable sinful men And our sauior Christ which was the minister of God pure from sin therfore metest to weare the marke of purenes vsed no such kinde of weede sauing only for the smal time wherin he wold geue to his disciples in the mount a tast of that glory which he shuld enioy for euer they with him where for the time his apparel appeared as white as snow And if it be mete that the ministers shuld represent the angels in their apparel it is much more mete that they shuld haue a paire of wings as the angels are described to haue to put them in remeÌ„brance of their readines quicknes to execute their office which may and ought to be in them then to weare white apparell whych is a token of purenes from sinne and infection and of a glorye whych neither they haue nor can haue nor ought so much as to desire to haue as long as they be in thys world And whereas the maintainers of this apparell haue for their greatest defence that it is a thyng meere ciuill to let passe that they confounde Ecclesiasticall orders wyth ciuill whych they can no more iustly do then to confounde the church wyth the common wealth I say to let that pas they do by thys meanes not only make it an Ecclesiastical ceremonie but also a matter of
of the Pope of Rome as it is for M. doctor Whitgift to alledge the. 25. 26. 27. to proue the name of archbyshop archdeacon patriarke for they are all of one stampe and haue lyke authoritie I feare greatly some craftye dissembling papist had hys hand in this boke who hauing a great deale of rotten stuffe whych he coulde not vtter vnder hys owne name being already lost brought it vnto the author heereof whych hath vpon his credite without further examination set it to sale Peraduenture you will thinke scorne to be censured and reprehended of a poore minister of the countrey and therfore I will turne you ouer for your lesson in thys behalfe vnto the bishop of Salisburie in hys Replie against M. Harding touching the article of the supremacie If all shoulde be allowed of that S. Ambrose alloweth of then besides other things whych he holdeth corruptly the marriage of the ministers should go very hard But it is worthy to be obserued wyth what words Amb. doth allowe of the archbishop that all men may vnderstande howe lowe it goeth wyth M. Doctor for his defence of the archbishop and howe the archbishop is so out of credite that there can not be gotten any to be surety for hys honesty Ambrose complaining of the ministers or bishops in those dayes sayeth it a man aske them who preferred them to be priestes answere is made by and by that the archbyshop for an hundreth shillings ordained me bishop to whome I gaue a hundreth shillings that I might get the fauor to be bishop whych if I had not giuen I had not bene byshop And afterward he sayeth that this greeued him that the archbyshop ordained byshops carnally or for some carnall respecte And thys is all the allowance that Ambrose sheweth of an archbyshoppe Your archbishop taketh all things in good parte so that his very dispraise he expoundeth to hys commendation And there is great likelyhode that the archbyshop whych Ambrose maketh mention of was no other then he whych for the time ruled the action wherin byshops were ordained and after the action ended had no more authoritye then the rest And I am moued so to thincke First because it is not like that one only ordained byshops being contrary to the olde Canons of the best councelles but that there were other and that thys whome Ambrose calleth archbyshop dyd gather the voyces c. Secondly because it was very vnlike that there was any absolutely aboue S. Ambrose in those partes where he complaineth of euill byshops or ministers made Thirdly for that Ambrose in an other place whych you after cite deuiding all the church into the cleargye and laitye dothe subdeuide the cleargy into bishops elders and deacons and therfore it is not like that there was any which had any continuall function of archbyshop But as he was called choregos or leader of the dauÌ„ce whych commeth first and after comming in againe in the second or third place is no more so called so that byshop was called archbyshop whych for the time present did gather the voyces of the rest of the byshoppes whych he by by layde downe wyth the dissoluing of the meeting And that this is not my coniecture only that there was no ordinarye or absolute archbyshop let the Centuries be seene whych alledge that place of Ambrose to proue that the office of an archbishop was not then come into the church whych was 400 yeares after Christ and more also Basile you say the greate Metropolitane of Cappadocia I haue shewed what the worde metropolitane signifieth and howe there was not then suche a metropolitane as we haue now and as the admonition speaketh against You play as he which is noted as none of the wisest amongst the marchants which thought that euery shyp that approched the hauen was his shippe for so you thinke that wheresoeuer you reade metropolitane or archbyshop forthwith you thinke there is your metropolitane or your archbyshop whereas it shall appeare that besides the name they are no more like then a byshop wyth vs is like a minister I can not tell whether you would abuse your reader heere wyth the fallacion of the accent because thys worde Great is so placed betweene Basile and metropolitane that it may be as wel referred to the metropolitane as to Bastle and so you hauing put no comma it seemeth you had as lâ—eue haue your reader read great metropolitane as great Basil But that the simpler sort be not deceiued therby it is not out of the way to let the reader vnderstand what a great metropolitane thys was whych * appeareth for that when he was threatned by the magistrate confiscation of hys goodes answeared that he was not afraid of the threatnings and that all hys goodes were a very few bokes and an olde gowne suche were then those Metropolitanes vnder whose shadowes M. Doctor goeth aboute to shroude all this pompe and princely magnificence of oure archbyshoppes As for Simeon archbyshop of Seleucia I will not deny but at that time was the name of archbyshops for then Sathan had made throughe the titles of archbishop primate patriarch as it were three stayers wherby antichrist might clime vp into hys curssed seate Notwithstanding there wanted not good decrees of godly councelles whych did strike at these proude names and went aboute to keepe them downe but the swelling waters of the ambition of diuers coulde not by any bankes be kept in whych hauing once broken oute in certaine places afterwardes couered almost the face of the whole earthe This endeuoure of godly men may appeare in the councell of Carthage whych decreed that the bishop of the first seat shoulde not be called exarchon ton hieron e akron ierea e toiouton tipore that is either the chefe of the priestes or the high priest or any such thing by whych wordes any such thing he shutteth out the name of archbyshop and all such hautie titles The same decree also was made in the Affricane councell and if you saye that it was made against the Pope of Rome or to forbid that any man should be called archbyshop shewe me where there was either byshop of Rome or any other that euer made any suche title or chalenge to be the generall byshop of all at that time when this councell of Carthage was holden when as the first of those whych did make any suche chalenge was the byshop of Constantinople whych notwithstanding chalenged not the preheminence first ouer all but that he might ordaine byshoppes of Asia Pontus Thracia whych were before appoynted by their Sinodes and thys was in the councell of Chalcedon whych was long after that councell of Carthage before remembred For to proue the lawfulnesse of the name of an archdeacon the antiquitye the necessitye of it the testimonies of foure are broughte which neither speake of their lawfulnes nor of their necessity and they say not in deede so muche as God saue them and two of these
them For so doth Cyprian cal the bishops of that prouince in his epistle his fellow bishops and in diuers places his brethren And in the sentence which he spake in the coūcel of Carthage he sayth none of vs doth take him selfe to be bishop of bishops Nowe that there was no authoritye of one byshop ouer an other and that there was none suche as when controuersies roase tooke vppon hym the compounding of them or any one to whome it appertained to see the vnitye of the church kept and to see that all other bishops and the cleargy did their duety as M. Doctor beareth vs in hand it may clearely be seene in diuers places of Cyprian and first of all in that sentence which he spake in the councel of Carthage where he proceedeth further after this sort that none of them did by any tirannicall feare binde his felowes in office or any fellow byshops to any necessity of obedience seeing that euery bishop hath for his free libertye and power hys owne iudgement or discretion as one which can not be iudged of an other as he also hym selfe can not iudge an other But sayth he we ought to tary and waite for the iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only and alone hath power to set vs ouer hys church to iudge of our doing And in the same Epistle whereout the first place is taken by M. Doctor he sayth that vnto euery one a portion of the flocke is appoynted which euery one must rule and gouerne as he that shall render an accompt of hys deede vnto the lord And in an other place hee sayth we doe not vse any compulsion or vyolence ouer any nor appoynt no law to any seeing that euery one that is set ouer the church hath in the gouernment the free disposition of hys owne will whereof he shall geue an accompt vnto the lord And yet Cyprian was the byshop of the metropolitane or cheefe seate and one whome for hys learning and godlynesse the rest no doubt had in great reuerence and gaue great honor vnto And whereas it is sayde for the preseruation of vnitie one must be ouer all S. Cyprian sheweth that the vnitie of the church is conserued not by hauing one byshop ouer all But by the agreement of the byshops one with an other For so he wryteth that the church is knit and coupled together as it were with the glew of the byshops consenting one with an other and as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one byshop in a prouince but those byshoppes whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies and schismes and shewing how dyuers byshops were drawne into the heresie of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or languished but that there was a portion of priestes which dyd not geue place vnto those ruines and shipwrackes of fayth And in an other place he sayth therefore most deare brother the plentifull body or company of the priests are as it were with the glew of mutuall concorde bande of vnitie ioyned together that if any of our company be author of an heresie and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable mercifull shepheards gather together the sheepe of the Lord wherby it is manifest that the appeasing composing of controuersies heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one byshops hand but in as many as coulde conueniently assemble together according to the danger of the heresie which sprang or deepe roote which it had taken or was like to take And that there was in his time no such authoritie geuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the byshop of the diocese taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any church within hys diocese from the minister and elders to whome the decision pertayneth and as when the archbyshop taketh it away from the byshop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordayned it is equall and right that euery mans cause shoulde be there hearde where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they may haue both accusers and witnesses of the fault whiche although it be spoken of them which fied out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and doth as wel serue agaynst these Ecclesiasticall persons which will take vnto them the decyding of those controuersies that were done a hundreth mile of them And whereas M. Doctor in both places of Cyprian semeth to stand much vpon the wordes One Byshop and priest the reason thereof doth appeare in an other place of Cyprian most manifestly and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archbyshop ouer a hole prouince then to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince which shoulde see that all the rest of the husbandes doe their dueties to their wyues For thys was the case A Nouatian hereticke being condemned and cast out of the churches of Affrica by the consent of the byshops not able by embassage sent to them to obtayne to be receiued to their communion and fellowship agayne goeth afterwardes to Rome and being lykewise there repelled in tyme getteth hym selfe by certayne which fauoured hys heresie to be chosen byshop there at Rome Cornelius being the byshop or pastor of those which were there godly mynded whereupon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one byshop one priest in the church because at Rome there was two whereof one was a wolfe which ought not to haue bene there considering there was but one church which was gathered vnder the gouernmēt of Cornelius And therefore by that place of Cyprian it can not be gathered that there ought to be but one byshop in one citie if the multitude of professors require more and that all can not well gather them selues together in one congregation to be taught of one man much lesse can it serue to proue that there should be but one in a whole diocese or prouince I graunt that in later tymes and which went more from the simplicitie of the primitiue church they tooke occasion of these wordes to decree that there should be but one byshop in a citie but that can neuer be concluded of Cyprians wordes if it be vnderstanded why he vrgeth one byshop and one priest If therefore neyther word byshop nor priest do make any thing to proue an archbyshop nor thys worde church doth imply any prouince nor in these wordes one byshop one priest there is nothing lesse ment then that there should be one archbyshop ouer all the
byshops and cleargie in a prouince and if Cyprian will neyther allow of the title of archbyshop nor of the authoritie and office but in playne wordes speaketh agaynst both we may conclude that M. Doctor hath done very vnaduisedly to lay so great waight of the archbyshop vppon S. Cyprians shoulders that wâ—ilnot only not beare any thing of hym but which hath done all that coulde be to make hym goe a foote and hand in hand with hys fellowes There are other reasons which M. Doctor vseth as thys a notable one S. Cyprian speaketh not of the vsurped power of the byshop of Rome therefore he speaketh of the office of an archbyshop and metropolitane It is hard to call thys argument to any head of fallation for it hath not so much as a colour of a reason I thincke it can deceiue no body but your self An other reason is that all the godlyest best learned meÌ„ do expound the place of Cyprian in the 3. epist. of the first booke of an archbyshop The vanitie of thys saying that the godly learned wryters so expound it I haue shewed before and heere it commeth to be considered agayne I will not say that no godly nor learned wryter expoundeth the place of Cyprian of the authoritie of an archbishop But first I desire M. Doctor to set downe but one and then I will leaue it to thy consyderation gentle reader to thincke whether M. Doctor hath red any learned or godly mans exposition to be suche when he hath not red those which are nearest hym I meane our owne countrey men I say he hath not red them because I woulde thinke charitably so of hym rather then that he shoulde haue red them and yet speake vntruely of them and father those things of them which they neuer speake M. Iewell the byshop of Sarisburie expounded thys place and yet dyd neuer expounde it of the office and authoritie of an archbyshop of all the byshops and clergie of the prouince but cleane contrarywise applyeth it to the authoritie that euery byshop had in hys diocesse hys wordes are these Now therefore to draw that thing by violence to one only byshop that is generally spoken of all byshops is a guilefull fetch to misseleade the reader and no simple nor playne dealing Heere you see that M. Iuel doth not vnderstande thys of any archbyshop but of euery byshop M. Nowel Deane of Poules hauing occasion to speake of this place sayth on thys sort So that when he speaketh meaning Cyprian of one byshop one iudge in the churche for the time or of the byshop whych is one and ruleth the church absolutely he meaneth euery byshop in his owne diocesse wythout exception If he speake specially he meaneth the byshop of the citye or diocese wherof he entreateth whether it be the byshop of Rome Carthage or any other place M. Fore also expoundeth thys of euery byshop wythin hys owne churche or diocese You heare the iudgement of these three wryters that can not picke out neyther the name nor the office of an archbyshop out of Cyprians place and yet I thinke you wil not deny but these were learned and godly wryters Now I haue shewed you three I aske once againe of you one godlye and learned wryter that expoundeth it as you doe And by thys time I suppose all men vnderstande what a small friend S. Cyprian is eyther to the name or office of an archbyshop Let vs heare whether Ierome make any more for the archbyshop then did Cyprian The Hebrues doe deriue the name of time of a verbe whych signifyeth to corrupt because in dede it doth corrupt all and as the times are so are meÌ„ which liue in them that euen very good men carye the note of the infection of the times wherin they liue and the streame of the corruption therof being so vehemeÌ„t and forcible doth not only driue before it light things but it cateth also and weareth the very hard and stony rockes and therfore there is not to be loked for such sinceritie at Ierome his hand whych we found in S. Cyprian considering that he liued some ages after Cyprian what time sathan had a great deale more darkned the cleare light of the sonne of the gospell then it was in S. Cyprians time For as those that came nearest vnto the apostles times because they were nearest the light â–ª did see best so those that were further of from these lightes had vntill the time of the manifestation of the sonne of perdition their heauens more darke and cloudy and consequeÌ„tly did see more dimly whych is diligently to be obserued of the reader bothe the better to vnderstand the state of thys question and all other controuersies whych lie betweene vs and the papistes And although Ierome besides his other faultes might haue also in thys matter spoken more soundly yet we shall easely perceiue that he is a great deale further from eyther the title or office of an archbyshop or else from the authority that a byshop hath with vs then he is from the simplicity of the ministery which ought to be and is commended vnto vs by the worde of God. And heere I must put M. Doctor in remembrance howe vnfitly he hath dedicated his boke vnto the churche whych hath so patched it and peeced it of a number of shreds of the doctors that a sentence of the scripture eyther truely or falsely alledged is as it were a Phenix in thys boke If he would haue had the church beleue hym he oughte to haue setled their iudgement and grounded their faith vpon the scriptures whych are the only foundations whervpon the church may build Nowe he doth not only not geue them grounde to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes whych they can not folowe nor come after him For except it be those whych are learned and besides haue the meanes and abilitye to haue the bokes whych are heere cited which are the least and smallest portion of the church how can they know that these things be true whych are alledged and as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay them selues vpon and quiet their conscience in allowing that which M. Doctor would so faine haue them like of Therefore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto the learned and riche whych haue furnished libraries Ierome sayeth that at the first a byshoppe and an Elder whych you call priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed that one should rule ouer the rest Now I say against this order that the bishop shoulde beare rule ouer all that which our sauioure Christ sayth vnto the Pharises from the beginning it was not so and therefore I require that the first order may stande which was that a byshop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie agaynst the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian sayth vnto you
good common wealthes wherein many haue lyke power and authoritie And further if because there is one king in a lande aboue all he will conclude there should be one archbyshop ouer all I say as I haue sayde that it is not agaynst any word of God which I know although it be inconuenient but that there may be one Cesar ouer all the world and yet I thinke M. Doctor will not say that there may be one archbyshop ouer all the world Now M. Doctor commeth to hys olde hole where he woulde fayne hyde hym selfe and with hym all the ambition tyranny and excesse of authoritie which is ioyned wyth these functions of archbyshoppe and byshoppe as they are now vsed and thys hys hole is that all the mynisters are equall with byshops and archbyshops as touching the mynisterie of the worde and sacramentes but not as touching pollicie and gouernment The papistes vse the very selfe same distinction for the mayntenance of the Popes tyranny and ambytion and other their hierarchie Maister Doctor hath put out the marke and conceled the name of the papistes and so with a little chaunge of wordes as it were with certayne new coloures he woulde deceiue vs For the papistes saye that euery syr Iohn or hedge priest hath as great authoritie to sacrifice and offer for the quicke and the dead and to mynister the sacramentes as the Pope of Rome hath but for gouernment and for order the byshoppe is aboue a priest the archbyshoppe aboue a byshoppe and the Pope aboue them all But I haue declared before out of the scriptures how vayne a distinction it is and it appeareth out of Cyprian that as all the byshops were equall one to an other so he sayth that to euery one was geuen a portion of the Lordes flocke not only to feede with the worde and sacramentes but to rule and gouerne not as they which shall make any accoumpte vnto an archbyshop or be iudged of hym but as they which can not bee iudged of any but of god And Ierome vpon Titus sayeth that the elder or mynister dyd gouerne and rule in common with the byshops the churche whereof he was elder or mynister After followeth M. Caluin a great patrone forsoth of the archbyshop or of thys kynde of byshop which is vsed amongst vs heere in Englande And heere to passe ouer your straunge cytations and quotations which you make to put your answerer to payne sending hym sometymes to Musculus common places for one sentence to Augustines workes to Chrysostomes workes to Cyrill to Maister Foxe and heere sending hym to the viij chapter of the institutions as though you had neuer red Caluins institutions but tooke the sentence of some bodye else withoute anye examination whereby it seemeth that you were lothe that euer any man should answere your booke letting I say all thys passe what maketh thys eyther to proue that there shoulde bee one archbyshoppe ouer all the mynisters in the prouince or one byshoppe ouer all in the diocese that amongst twelue that were gathered together into one place there was one which ruled the action for which they mette And that it may appeare what superioritie it is which is lawfull amongst the mynisters and what it is that M. Caluin speaketh of what also the fathers and councels doe meane when they geue more to the byshoppe of any one church then to the elder of the same church and that no man be deceiued by the name of gouernoure or ruler ouer the rest to fancie any such authoritie and domination or Lordship as we see vsed in our church it is to be vnderstanded that amongst the pastors elders and deacons of euery particulare church and in the meetinges and companies of the mynisters or elders of dyuers churches there was one chosen by the voyces and suffrages of them all or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled whether they were difficulties to be soluted or punishmentes and censures to be decreed vpon those which had faulted or whether there were elections to be made or what other matter so euer occasion was geuen to entreate of the which also gathered the voyces and reasons of those which had interest to speake in such cases whiche also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces whiche were geuen which was also the mouth of the rest to admonishe or to comfort or to rebuke sharply such as were to receiue admonishment consolation or rebuke and which in a worde dyd moderate that whole action which was done for the time they were assembled which thing we do not deny may be but affirme that it is fitte necessary to be to the auoyding of confusion For it were an absurde hearing that many should at once attempt to speake neyther coulde it be done without great reproch that many men beginning to speake some should be bidden to holde their peace which would come to passe if there should be no order kept nor none to appoynt when euery one should speake or not to put them to silence when they attempted confusedly to speake and out of order Moreouer when many ministers mete together and in so great dyuersitie of giftes as the Lorde hath geuen to hys church there be founde that excell in memory facilitie of tong and expedition or quicknesse to dispatche matters more then the rest and therefore it is fitt that the brethren that haue that dexteritie shoulde especially be preferred vnto thys office that the action may be the better and more spedely made an ende of And if any man will call thys a rule or presidentship and hym that executeth thys office a president or moderator or a gouernour we will not striue so that it be with these cautions that he be not called simply gouernor or moderator but gouernor or moderator of that action and for that time and subiect to the orders that others be to be censured by the company of the brethren as wel as others if he be iudged any way faulty And that after that action ended meeting dissolued he sitte hym downe in hys olde place and set hym selfe in equall estate with the rest of the ministers Thirdly that thys gouernment or presidentship or what so euer lyke name you will geue it be not so tyed vnto that minister but that at the next meeting it shall be lawfull to take an other if an other bee thought meeter Of thys order and pollicy of the church if we will see a liuely image and perfect paterne let vs set before our eyes the most auncient and gospel like church that euer was or shall be In the actes the church being gathered together for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming together with what cautions and qualities they ought to
that in his garden he shall neuer finde the herbe that wil heale him And because that the scriptures when they make for our cause receiue this answer commonly that they serued but for the apostles times and M. Caluins authority will wey nothing as I thinke wyth M. Doctor when he is alledged by vs against hym I wil send hym to the Greke Scholiaste whych vpon this place of Titus sayth after this sort He would not speaking of s Paule haue the whole I le of Crete ministred and gouerned by one but that euery one should haue hys proper charge and care for so should Titus haue a lighter labor and the people that are gouerned should enioy greater attendance of the pastor whilest he that teacheth them doth not run about the gouernment of many congregations but attendeth vnto one and garnisheth that Now M. Doctor may see by this that Titus by the iudgement of the Scholiaste was not as he fansieth the archbyshop of all Crete but that he had one flocke whervpon for the time he was there he attended And that where it is sayd he ordained ministers it is nothing else but that he was the cheefe and the moderator in the election of the ministers as I haue declared before by many examples And it is no maruell although the rest graunted hym thys preheminence when he had both most excellent gifts and was a degree aboue the pastors being an Euangelist Vnto the place of Timothe where he willeth him not to admit an accusation against an elder vnder two or three witnesses I answer as I haue done before to the place of Titus that is that as the ordination of the pastors is attributed vnto Titus and Timothe because they gouerned and moderated that action and were the first in it so also is the deposing or other censures of them and that for as much as he wryteth hys epistles vnto Timothe Titus he telleth them how they should behaue them selues in their office and doth not shut out other from this censure and iudgement And it is more agreable to the inscription of the epistles that he should say admit not thou or ordain not thou wryting vnto one then if he should say ordaine not ye or admit not ye as if he should wryte to many for so should neyther the ending agree wyth the beginning nor the midst wyth them both And if this be a good rule that because Paul biddeth Timothe and Titus to iudge of the faults of the pastors and to ordain pastors therfore none else did but they Then whereas S. Paule biddeth Timothe that he should commaund teach that godlines is profitable to all things admonisheth him to be an example of the whole flocke by your reason he wil haue no other of the mynisters of Ephesus or of the I le of Creta to teach that doctrine or to be examples to their flockes an hundreth such things in the Epistles of Timothe and Titus which although they be there particularly directed vnto Timothe and Titus yet do they agree are common to them with all other mynisters yea sometimes vnto the whole flocke As for Epiphanius it is knowne of what authoritie he is in this place when as by Aerius sides he goeth about to pricke at the Apostle whilest he goeth about to confute the Apostle which maketh a distinction and difference betwene those which the Apostle maketh one that is a byshop and an elder and to spare the credite of Epiphanius it were better lay that opinion vpon some Pseudepiphanius that is to say counterfaite which we may do not without great probabilitie seeing Augustine sayth that the true Epiphanius vttereth all after a story fashion and doth not vse any disputation or reasoning for the truth agaynst the falshode and thys Epiphanius is very full of argumentes and reasons the choyse whereof M. Doctor hath taken And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose Caluin and other godly wryters to proue that the mynister is vnderstanded by the word elder or presbiter he keepeth hys olde wont by bringing stickes into the woode and prouing alwayes that which no man denyeth and yet with the mynister of the word he also vnderstandeth the elder of the church which ruleth and doth not labor in the word But therein is not the matter for I doe graunt that by presbiter the mynister of the word is vnderstanded yet nothing proued of that which M. Doctor would so fayne proue It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the admonition for want of logicke for you vtter great skill your selfe in wryting which keepe no order but confound your reader in that thing which euen the common logicke of the countrey which is reason might haue directed you in For what a confusion of times is thys to begin with Cyprian and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome and after to the scripture and backe agayne to Ignatius that was before Cyprian which times are ill disposed of you and that in a matter wherein it stode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian hys place for when he sayth the byshop hath rule ouer all he meaneth no more all in the prouince then in all the worlde but meaneth that flocke congregation whereof he is byshop or mynister And when he calleth hym prince of the priestes although the title be to excessiue and bigge condemned by Cyprian and the councell of Carthage yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocese as we take it or of the prouince then he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world but those fellow mynisters and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particulare church and congregation whereof he was byshop as the great churches haue for the most part both elders which gouerne only and mynisters also to ayde one an other and the principalitie that hee which they called the byshop had ouer the rest hath bene before at large declared But M. Doctor doth not remember that whilest hee thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the byshoppe hee ouerthroweth hys archbyshoppe quite and cleane for Ignatius will haue none aboue the byshop but Christ and hee will haue an archbyshop I see a man can not well serue two maisters but eyther he must displease the one and please the other or by pleasing of one offend the other For M. Doctor would fayne please and vpholde both and yet hys proufes are such that euery prop that he setteth vnder one is an axe to strike at the other But that M. D. delyteth alwayes wher he might fetch at the fountaine to be raking in ditches he needed not to haue gone to Iustin Martyr for Proestos when as S. Paule calleth the mynisters Elders by thys title And if thys place of Iustin make for an archbyshop then in stead of an archbyshop in euery prouince we
shal haue one in euery congregation For Iustin declareth there the Leyturgie or maner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that proestos and see whether there be any resemblance in the world betwene hym and an archbyshop For he placeth hys office to be in preaching in conceiuing prayers in mynistring of the sacramentes Of any commaundement which he had ouer the rest of the mynisters or of any such priuiledges as the archbyshop hath he maketh not one worde It may be that the same myght haue the preheminence of calling the rest together and propounding the matter to the rest of the company and such lyke as is before declared As soone as euer you found proestos you snatched that by and by and went your wayes and so deceyue your selfe and others But if you had red the whole treatise you should haue founde that he was proestos of the people for thus it is written in the same Apologie Epeita prospheretai to Proestoti ton adelphon artos Afterwarde bread is brought to the president of the brethren calling the people as S. Paule doth continually brethren And therefore these are M. Doctors argumentes oute of Martyrs place There was a mynister which dyd stande before or was president of the rest in euery particulare church and congregation therefore there was an archbyshoppe ouer all the prouince And agayne there was one which ruled the people in euery congregation therfore there was one that ruled all the mynisters through out the whole prouince And albeit things were in great puritie in the dayes that Iustin liued in respect of the tymes which followed yet as there was in other things which appeare in hys workes and euen in the ministration of the sacramentes spoken of in that place corruption in that they mingled water and wine together so euen in the ministerie there began to peepe out some thing which went from the simplicitie of the gospel as that the name of proestos which was common to the elders with the ministers of the word was as it seemeth appropriated vnto one Another of M. Doctors reasons for to proue the archbyshop is that Cyrill maketh mention of an high priest wherunto I answere that he that bringeth in a priest into the church goeth about to bury our sauiour Christ for although it myght be proued that the worde priest were the same with the Greekes presbyteros yet as shall appeare in hys place is the vse of thys word priest for a mynister of the gospell very daungerous And as for hym that bringeth in an high priest into the church hee goeth about to put our sauiour Christ out of hys office who is proued in the Epistle to the Hebrues to be the only high priest and that there can be no more as long as the worlde endureth And yet if all thys were graunted you are not yet come to that which you desire to proue that is an archbyshoppe For if you looke in Theodorete you shall fynde thys woorde archierosyne which signifyeth the highe priesthoode to be nothing else but a byshoppricke and in the. 7. chapter of that booke and so forth dyuers tymes you shall haue archiereus taken for a byshop as speaking of the councel of Nice he sayth that there was 318. archiereis highe priestes Now I thincke you wil not say there were 318. archbyshops If you do you are confuted by all ecclesiasticall wryters that euer I red which speaking of them call them byshops Chrysostome followeth which as M. Doctor sayth ruled not only the church of Constantinople but the churches of Thracia Asia and Pontus he sayth it out of Theodorete But heerin it may appeare that eyther M. Doctor hath a very euill conscience in falsifying wryters that in the poyntes which he in controuersie or else he hath taken hys stuffe of certayne at the seconde hand without any examination of it at all For heere he hath set downe in stead of had care of the churches in Thracia c. ruled the churches the Greke is epoieito ten promethcian it is translated also prospexit so that it appeareth he fetched it neyther from Theodorite in Greeke nor in Latine And what is thys to proue an archbyshoppe that he had care of these churches there is no minister but ought to haue care ouer all the churches through christendome and to shew that care for them in comforting or admonishing of them by wryting or by visiting them if the necessitie so require and it be thought good by the churches and leaue obtayned of the place where he is mynister vppon some notable and especiall cause being some man of singular giftes whose learning and credite may profite much to the bringing to passe of that thing for the which he is to be sent After thys sort * S. Cyprian being in Affricke had care ouer Rome in Europe and wrote vnto the church there After thys sort also was * Ireneus byshoppe of Lions sent by the French churches vnto the churches in Phrigia And after thys sort haue M. Caluin and M. Beza bene sent from Geneua in Sauoy to the churches of Fraunce Now if you will conclude heereupon that Cyprian ruled the churche of Rome or Ireneus the churches of Phrigia or maister Caluin or M. Beza the churches of Fraunce or that they were byshops or archbyshops of those places you shall but conclude as you were wont to doe but yet all men vnderstand that heere is nothing lesse then an archbyshop or any such byshoppe as we haue and vse in our church And if so be that Chrysostome should be byshop or archbyshop of al these churches which were in al Asia Pontus Thracia as you wold geue the reader to vnderstand you make hym byshop of more churches then euer the Pope of Rome was when he was in hys greatest pryde and hys Empire largest For there were sixe presidentships in Thracia and in Asia there were a eleuen Princes and had seuerall regions or gouernmentes and in Pontus as many and if he were byshop or archbyshop of all the churches within these dominions he had neede of a long spone to feede with all It is certayne therefore that he was byshop only of the church in Constantinople and had an eye a care to those other churches And that he was byshop of one citie or of one church it may appeare by that which I haue before alleaged oute of the Greeke Scholiaste vpon Titus who citeth there Chrysostome where it is sayd that S. Paule dyd not meane to make one ouer the whole I le but that euery one should haue hys proper congregation c. * And in an other place he sheweth the difference betweene the Emperour and the byshop that the one is ouer the world and the other that is the byshop is ouer one citie Touching Theodorete byshop of Cyrus to let pas that which the bishops of
Egipt cryed in the councell of Calcedon that he was no bishop it is to be obserued that which the Emperoures Theodosius and Valentinian wryte vnto Dioscorus bishop of Alexandria that he had commaunded Theodoret byshop of Cyrus that he should kepe hym selfe vnto hys owne church only wherby it appeareth that he medled in moe churches then was mete he should Besides that wanteth not suspition the he speaketh this of him selfe especially when he sayth the there was not in all those 800. churches one tare the is one hypocrite or euil maÌ„ Now that it may appeare what great lykelyhoode there is betwene thys Theodoret and our Lord byshops and archbyshops it is to be considered which he wryteth of hym selfe in the Epistle vnto Leo that is that he hauing bene 26. yeares byshop was knowne of all that dwelt in those partes that he had neuer house of hys owne nor field nor halfepennie not so much as a place to be buryed in but had willingly contented hym selfe with a poore estate belyke he had a very leane archbyshoppricke And if the fat morsels of our byshopprickes archbishopprickes were taken employed to their vses of maintenance of the pore of the mynisters and of the vniuersities which are the seede of the mynisterie I thincke the heate of the disputation and contention for archbyshops and bishops would be cooled Now good reader thou hearest what M. Doctor hath bene able to take together out of the olde fathers which he sayth are so playne in thys matter and yet can shew nothing to the purpose Heare also what he sayth out of the wryters of our age all which he sayth except one or two are of hys iudgement and allow well of thys distinction of degrees Maister Caluin first is cited to proue those offices of archbyshop primate patriarche the names whereof he can not abyde and as for hym he approueth only that there should be some â–ª which when difficult causes arise which can not bee ended in the particulare churches might referre the matters to sinodes and prouinciall councels and which myght do the offices which I haue spoken of before of gathering voyces c. But that he lyketh not of those dominations and large iurisdictions or at all of the byshoppes or archbyshops which we haue now it may appeare playnly enough both in that place when as he will haue hys wordes drawen to no other then the olde byshoppes shutting out thereby the byshoppes that now are as also in other places and namely vpon the Philippians where reasoning agaynst thys distinction betwene pastor and byshop and shewing that geuing the name of byshop to one man only in a church was the occasion why he afterward vsurped domynation ouer the rest he sayth after thys sort In deede I graunt sayth he as the dispositions and manners of men are order can not stande amongst the mynisters of the woorde vnlesse one be ouer the rest I meane sayth he of euery seuerall and singuler body not of a whole prouince much lesse of the whole worlde Now if you will needes haue M. Caluins archbyshop you must not haue hym neyther ouer a prouince nor diocese but only ouer one singuler and particuler congregation How much better therefore were it for you to seeke some other shelter against the storme then maister Caluins which will not suffer you by any meanes to couer your selfe vnder hys winges but thrusteth you out alwayes as soone as you enter vpon him forceably But heere I can not let passe M. Doctors ill dealing which recyting so much of maister Caluin cutteth hym of in the waste and leaueth quite out that which made agaynst hym that is which maister Caluin â—ayth in these wordes Although sayth he in thys disputacion it may not be passed ouer that this office of archbyshop or patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed which dealing semeth to proceede of a very euill conscience Then followeth Hemingius who you say approueth these degrees of archbishop metropolitane byshop archdeacon for so you must needes meane when you say he approueth these degrees or els you say nothing for there vpon is the question Now how vntruely you speake let it be iudged by that which followeth * First he sayth that our sauiour Christ in S. Luke distinguisheth and putteth a difference betwene the office of a Prince and the office of the minister of the church leauing domynion to the Princes and taking it altogether from the mynisters Here you see not only how he is agaynst you in your exposition in the place of S. Luke which wold haue it nothing else but a prohibition of ambitioÌ„ but also how at a word he cutteth the throte of your archbyshop and byshop as it is now vsed And afterward speaking of the churches of Denmarke he sayth they haue Christ for their head for the outwarde discipline they haue magistrates to punish with the sword for to exercise the Ecclesiasticall disciplyne they haue bishops pastors doctors which may keepe men vnder with the word without vsing any corporall punishment Here is no mention of archbyshops Primates metropolitanes And although he sheweth that they kepe the distinction betwene byshops and ministers against whych there hath bene before spoken yet he sayth that the authority which they haue is as the authority of a father not as the power of a maister whych is far otherwise heere For the condition of many seruaunts vnder their maisters is much more free then the condition of a minister vnder hys byshop And afterward he sheweth wherin that authority or dignity of the byshop ouer the minister lyeth that is in exhorting of him in chiding of hym as he doth the lay people and yet he will haue also the minister although not with such authority after a modest sort to do the same vnto the byshop And so he concludeth that they retain these orders notwithstanding the anabaptists Now let the reader iudge whether Hemingius be truely or faithfully alledged or no or whether Hemingius do say that they haue in their church archbishops primates metropolitanes archdeacons or whether the byshops in the churches of Denmarke are any thing like oures For I will omit that he speaketh there against all pomp in the ministery all worldly superiority or highnes because I loue not to wryte out whole pages as M. Doctor doth out of other mens wrytings to helpe to make vp a boke M. doctor closeth vp this matter wyth M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place should be found that there might be answer or for feare that M. Foxe should giue me the solution whych hath giuen you the obiection he wold neither quote the place of the boke nor the boke it self he hauing wrytten diuers You caÌ„ not speake so much good of M. Foxe whych I will not willingly subscribe vnto And if it be any declaration of good will and of honor that one beareth to an other to read that whych he wryteth I thinke I haue
whether a man consider the schollers that learne or the scholemaisters whych teach or the orders appoynted for the gouernment of the scholes they shall be found to be rather ciuill then ecclesiasticall and therfore can not come in stead of any ecclesiasticall ministery If the byshop do meane that they come in place of the gift of tongues and knowledge of the gospell that was first geuen miraculously I graunt it and then it maketh nothing to this question As for byshops they can not come in place of apostles or prophets for as much as they were when the Apostles Euangelists and Prophets were and are one of those ministeries whych S. Paul mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians being the same that is the pastor There remaineth therfore the archbyshop whych if he came in place of the Prophets and apostles as the byshop sayeth howe commeth it to pas that the byshop sayeth by and by oute of the authoritye of Erasmus that Titus was an archbyshop for at that time there was bothe apostles prophets and Euangelists If it be so therfore that the archbyshop must supply the want of apostles c. howe commeth it to pas he wayteth not hys time whilest they were deade but commeth in like vnto one whych is borne oute of time and like the vntimely and hasty frute whych is seldome or neuer wholesome And for one to come into the apostles or prophets place requireth the authority of him whych ordained the apostles c. whych is the Lord and hys institution in hys word whych is that whych we desire to be shewed But heereof I haue spoken before at large The necessity of Deanes I do not acknowledge and I haue already spoken of them Touching Prebendaries I shall haue occasion to speake a worde heereafter For Earles and Dukes and such like titles of honor they are ciuil neither doth it folowe that because there may newe titles or newe offices be brought into the ciuile gouernement that therefore the same may be attempted in the church For God hath left a greater liberty in instituting thyngs in the common wealth then in the churche For for so much as there be diuers common wealthes and diuers formes of common wealthes and all good it falleth oute that the offices and dignityes whych are good in one common wealth are not good in an other as those which are good in a Monarchie are not good in Aristocratie and those which are good in Aristocratie are not good in a populare state But that can not be sayde of the churche whych is but one and vniforme and hathe the same lawes and forme of gouernment throughout the worlde In common wealths also there are conuersions one forme being changed into an other whych can not be in the true church of god As for Erasmus authoritye whych sayeth that Titus was an archbyshop I haue answeared to it And whereas Chrysostome sayeth that the iudgement of many byshops was committed to Titus I haue declared in what sorte that is to be vnderstanded and yet vpon those words the byshop can hardly conclude that whych he doth that Titus had the gouernment of many byshops For it is one thing to say the iudgement of many was committed vnto Titus and an other thyng to say that he had the gouernement of many The answer of the byshop vnto the fourth supposed reason pertaineth vnto an other question that is whether ecclesiasticall persons ought to exercise ciuil iurisdiction whervnto I will answer by Gods grace when I come to speake vpon occasion of M. Doctors boke of that question In the meane season I wil desire the reader to consider what weake grounds the archbyshop and archdeacon stand vpon seeing that the byshop of Sarum being so learned a man and of so great reading coulde say no more in their defence whych notwythstanding in the controuersies agaynst D. Harding is so pithy and so plentifull Now I haue shewed how little those things whych M. doctor bringeth make for proufe of that wherfore he alledgeth them I will for the better vnderstanding of the reader set downe what were the causes why the archbishops were first ordained and what were their prerogatiues and preheminēces before other byshops and the estate also of the old byshops whych liued in those times wherin althoughe there were great corruptions yet the church was in some tollerable estate to the entent it may appeare partly how little nede we haue of them now and partly also howe greate difference there is betweene oures and them Of the names of Metropolitane it hath bene spoken howe that he shoulde not be called the cheefe of priests or the high priest or byshop of byshops nowe I will sette downe hys office and power whych he had more then the byshops In the councell of Antioche it appeareth that the byshop of the metropolitane seate called Synodes propounded the matters whych were to be handled c. the archbyshop doth not nowe call Synodes but the Prince dothe for as much as there is no conuocation wythout a parliament he doth not propound the matters and gather the voyces but an other chosen whych is called prolocutor therfore in the respect that an archb metropolitane was first ordained we haue no neede of an archb or metropolitane Againe an other cause also appeareth there whych was to see that the byshoppes kepte them selues wythin their owne dioceses and brake not into an others diocese But first this may be done wythout an archbyshop and then it is not done of the archb hym selfe geuing licences vnto the wandring ministers to go throughout not so few as a dosen dioceses therefore the office of an archb is not necessarye in thys respecte and if it were yet it must be other then it is nowe Againe the cause whye the metropolitane differed from the rest and whye the calling of the Synode was geuen to hym as it appeareth in the same coūcel was for that the greatest concourse was to that place and most assembly of men whervnto also may be added for that there was the best commodity of lodging of vitailing and for that as it appeareth in other councels it was the place and seate of the Empire But wyth vs neyther the greatest concourse nor assemblye of men nor the greatest commodity of lodging and vitailing neyther yet the seate of the kingdome is in the metropolitane city therefore wyth vs there is no suche cause of a metropolitane or archbyshop In the councel of Carthage holden in Cyprians time it appeareth that no byshop had authority ouer an other to compell an other or to condemne an other but euery byshop was left at hys owne liberty to answer vnto God and to make hys accompt vnto Christ and if any thing were done against any bishop it was done by the consent of all the byshops in the prouince or as many as coulde conueniently assemble Therefore Cyprian whych was the metropolitane byshop had then no authoritye ouer the rest
and yet then there being no christian magistrate whych woulde punishe the disorders whych were committed of the christian byshops there was greatest neede that there shoulde haue bene some one whych might haue had the correction of the rest If therefore when there was moste neede of thys absolute authoritie there neyther was nor myght be anye suche it followeth that nowe we haue a Christian magistrate whych maye and oughte to punishe the disorders of all Ecclesiasticall persons and may and ought to call them to accoumpt for their faultes that there shoulde be no suche neede of an archbyshop The moderation of their authority in the auncient times may appeare first by a Canon whych is falsly geuen to the apostles being as it is like a Canon of the councell of Antioche wherin although it ordaineth one primate in euery nation ouer the rest and will not suffer any great matter to be done wythout him as also will not suffer him to do any thing wythout the rest yet euery B. might do that whych appertained vnto hys own parish wythout hym and he nothing to do wyth hym in it But as it seemeth the meaning of the Canon was that if there were any waighty matter to be concluded for all the churches in the natiō then the byshops of euery parish should not enterprise any thing without calling hym to counsell Now we see that the archb medleth with that whych euery byshop doth in hys owne diocese and hath hys visitations for that purpose will take any matter out of their hands concludeth also of diuers matters neuer making the byshops once priuy to hys doings Higinus or as some thincke Pelagius I speake heere as Platina reporteth not thincking that in Higinus time there was any Metropolitane ordained that no Metropolitane should condemne any byshop onles the matter were first bothe harde and discussed by the byshoppes of that prouince at what time and after a great while a bishop was the same we cal a minister Now the archbyshop will wythout any further assistance or discussion by others suspend hym and in the ende also throwe him oute of hys charge and if he haue the same authority ouer a byshop as a byshop ouer the minister as it is sayd he may do the like vnto hym also The councell of Antioche ordained that if the voyces of the byshops were euen and that if halfe did condemne hym and halfe cleare hym that then the metropolitane byshop shoulde call of the nexte prouince some other byshops whych should make an end of the controuersy Wherby appeareth that the Metropolitane had so small authority and power ouer and aboue the rest that he had not so much as the casting voyce when bothe sides were euen and therefore it appeareth that besides the names of metropolitane there was little or no resemblance betweene those that were then and those whych be now Now to consider how the byshops whych are now differ from the byshops whych were in times past I must call to thy remembrance gentle reader that whych I haue spoken before which was that then there was as appeareth out of Cyprian and Ierome and others one byshop in euery parishe or congregation nowe one is ouer a thousande then euery byshop had a seuerall church where he preached and ministred the sacraments nowe he hath none then he ruled that one churche as I shewed oute of Ierome in common wyth the Elders of the same nowe he ruleth a thousande by hym selfe shutting oute the ministers to whome the rule and gouernement belongeth then he ordained not any minister of the churche except he were first chosen by the presbiterie and approued by the people of that place wherevnto he was ordained nowe he ordaineth where there is no place voyde and of hys priuate authority wythout either choise or approbation of presbyterie or people then he excommunicated not nor receiued the excōmunicated but by sentences of the eldership and consent of the people as shall appeare afterward nowe he dothe bothe And thus you see that contrary to the woorde of God he hathe gotten into hys owne hande and pulled to him selfe bothe the preheminence of the other ministers and the liberties of the church whych God by his word had geuen And as for the offices wherein there is any laboure or trauaile those they haue turned vnto the other ministers as for example in times past it was not lawfull for hym that was then an elder to preache or minister the sacraments in the presence of the byshop because the bishop him selfe should do it and now those which they call elders may preach and minister the sacraments by the byshops good licence although he be present Now if you will also consider how much the Lordship pompe and statelines of the byshops in our dayes differ from the simplicity of them in times past I will geue you also a taste thereof if first of all I shewe the beginning or as it were the fountaine wherevpon the pompe grewe whych was when in steade of hauing a byshop in euery parishe and congregation they began to make a bishop of a whole diocese and of a thousand congregations In an epistle of ʒacharie vnto Pope Boniface it is thus wrytten it hath bene oftentimes decreed that there shoulde not be a byshop appoynted in euerye village or little citie least they should waxe vile through the multitude whereby it bothe appeareth that there was wonte to be a byshop in euery parishe and vpon howe corrupte and euill consideration one byshoppe was sette ouer a whole diocese No doubte those that were authoures of thys had learned too well our olde prouerb the fewer the better cheare but the more byshops the meryer it had bene wyth Gods people And they might wyth as good reason hinder the sunne from shining in al places the raine from falling vpon al grounds for feare they should not be set by being common as to bring in such a wicked decree wherby vnder pretence of deliuering the byshop from contempt they sought nothing else but an ambitious and stately Lordshyp ouer those whych had not that title of bishop that they had althoughe they did the office of a byshop better then they dyd And what intollerable presumption is thys to chaunge the institution of God as though he whych ordained not one only but some nomber more or les of byshops in euery church did not sufficiently foresee that the multitude and plentye of byshops coulde breede no contempt of the office And it may be as well ordained that the children of pore men shoulde not call them that begate them fathers and mothers but only the childrē of the rich and of noble least that if euery man that hathe children shoulde be called a father fathers should be sette nothyng by And heere let vs obserue by what degrees and staires Sathan lifted the childe of perdition vnto that proude title of vniuersall byshop First where the Lorde did ordaine that
there shoulde be diuers pastors elders or byshops in euery congregation Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery churche thys was no doubt the first step Afterwardes he pushed further and stirred vp diuers not to content them selues to be byshops of one church but to desire to be byshops of a diocese whervnto although it seemeth that there was resistance in that it is sayd that it was decreed often yet in the end this wicked attempt preuailed and thys was an other step Then were there archbishops of whole prouinces whych was the third stayer vnto the seat of antichriste Afterwards they were Patriarks of one of the .iiij. corners of the whole world the whole church being assigned to the iurisdiction of fower that is to saye of the Romaine Constantinopolitane Antiochene and Alexandrine byshops And these fower stayers being layd of Sathan there was but an easy stride for the B. of Rome into that chaire of pestilence wherin he nowe sitteth Hauing now showed howe thys Lordly estate of the byshop began and vpon what a rotten ground it is builded I come to shew how farre the byshops in our time are for their pompe and outward statelines degenerated from the byshops of elder times And heere I call to remembraunce that whych was spoken of the poore estate of Basile and Theodorete and if M. Doctor will say as he doth in deede in a certaine place that thē was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easely answeared that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good emperors But that shall appeare better by the Canons whych were rules geuen for the byshops to frame them selues by In the. 4. councell of Carthage it is decreed that the byshops should haue a little house neare vnto the church what is thys compared wyth so many faire large houses and wyth the princely palace of a byshop And in the same councel it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of hys house after the commen sorte and that hys table and diet should be pore and that he should get him estimation by faithfulnes and good conuersation And in an other councell that the byshops shoulde not giue them selues to feastes but be content wyth a little meate Let these byshops be compared wyth oures whose chambers shine wyth gilt whose walles are hanged wyth clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden wyth plate whose tables and diets are furnished wyth multitude and diuersity of dishes whose daily dinners are feastes Let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those olde byshops were aliue they wold not know each other For they would thinke that oures were princes and oures woulde thinke that they were some hedge priests not worthy of their acquaintance or fellowshyp In the same councell of Carthage it was decreed that no byshop sitting in any place should suffer any minister or elder to stand Nowe I will report me to themselues how thys is kept and to the pore ministers whych haue to do with them and come before them The byshops in times past had no tayle nor trayne of men after them and thought it a slaunder to the gospell to haue a number of men before and behynde them And therefore is Paulus Sam of atenus noted as one that brought relygion into hatred and as one that seemed to take delight rather to be a captaine of two hundreth then a byshoppe because he had gotten him a sort of seruing men to waight on hym An other example not vnlyke and likewyse reprehended is in Ruffine of one Gregory a byshop Now in our dayes it is thought a commendation to the byshop a credite to the gospell if a byshop haue 30. 40. 60. or moe wayting of hym some before some behynde whereof three partes of them set apart the carying of a dishe vnto the table haue no honest or profitable calling to occupy themselues in two houres of the day to the filling of the church and commōwealth also with all kynde of disorders and greater incommodities then I minde to speake of because it is not my purpose And heere I will note an other cause which brought in this pompe and princely estate of byshoppes wherin although I will say more in a worde for the pompeous estate then M. Doctor hath done in all hys treatise yet I will shew that although it were more tollerable at the first now it is by no meanes to be borne with * In the ecclesiasticall story we read that the inscriptions of dyuers epystles sent vnto byshops were timiotatois kyriois We read also of aspasticon oicon house of salutations which Ambrose byshop of Millain had As for the title of most honorable Lordes it was not so great nor so stately as the name of a Lord or knight in our country for all those that know the maner of the speach of the Grecians do well vnderstand how they vsed to call euery one of any meane countenaunce in the common wealth where he lyued kyrion that is Lorde so we see also the Euangelistes vse the worde Kyrios to note a meane person as when Mary in the. 20. of Iohn thinking that our sauiour Christ had bene the keper of the garden calleth hym Kyrion So likewise in Fraunce they call euery one that is gentilman or hath any honest place Monseur and so they will say also fainng your honour Now we know thys word Lord in our countrey is vsed otherwise to note some great personage eyther by reason of birth or by reason of some high dignitie in the common wealth which he occupyeth and therfore those titles although they were somewhat excessiue yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as oures are And as touching Ambrose house albeit the word doth not employ so great gorgeousnes nor magnificence of an house as the palaces and other magnificall buildinges of our byshoppes yet the cause whereupon thys rose doth more excuse Ambrose who being taken from great wealth and gouernment in the common wealth geuing ouer hys office dyd retayne hys house and that which hee had gotten But our byshops doe maynteyne thys pompe and excesse of the charges of the church with whose goodes a great number of idle loytering seruing men are mayntayned which ought to be bestowed vpon the ministers which want necessary finding for their families and vpon the poore and mayntenance of the vniuersities As for these riotous expences of the church goodes when many other mynisters want and of making great dynners and entertayning great Lordes and maiestrates and of the answere to them that say they do helpe the church by thys meanes I will referre the reader to that which Ierome wryteth in a certayne place where thys is handled more at large By thys which I haue cyted it appeareth what was one cause of thys excesse and stately pompe of the byshops namely that
certeine noble and rich men being chosen to the ministerie and lyuing somewhat like vnto the former estates wherein they were before others also assayed to be like vnto them as we see in that poynt the nature of man is too ready to follow if they see any example before theyr eyes But there is no reason because Ambrose and such lyke dyd so therefore our byshops shoulde do it of the churches costes Nor because Ambrose and such like dyd tary in their trim houses which they had built them selues of theyr owne charge before they were byshops that therefore they shuld come out of theyr chambers or narow houses into courtes and palaces builded of the churches costes An other reason of thys pompe and statelynes of the byshoppes was that which almost brought in all poyson and popishe corruption into the church and that is a foolish emulation of the maners and fashions of the Idolatrous nations For as thys was the craft of sathan to draw away the Israelites from the true seruice of God by theyr fond desire they had to conforme them selues to the fashyons of the gentiles so to punish vnthankefull receiuing of the gospell and to fulfill the Prophesies touching the man of sinne the Lord suffered those that professed Christ to corrupt theyr wayes by the same sleyght of the Deuill Galerianus Maximinus the Emperor to the end that he myght promote the Idolatry and superstition whereunto he was addicted chose of the choysest magistrates to be priestes and that they myght be in great estimation gaue eche of them a trayne of men to follow them And the christians and christian Emperours thinking that that would promote the christian relygion that promoted superstition and not remembring that it is often times abhomynable before God which is esteemed in the eyes of men endeuoured to make theyr byshops encounter and match with those Idolatrous priestes and to cause that they should not be inferior to them in wealth and outward pompe And therfore I conclude that seing the causes and fountaynes from whence thys pompe and statelynes of byshops haue come are so corrupt and naught the thing it selfe which hath rysen of such causes can not be good And thus will I make an end leauing to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader how true it is that I haue before propounded that our Archbyshops Metropolitanes Archdeacons Byshops haue besides the names almost nothing common with those which haue bene in elder tymes before the sunne of the gospell began to be maruellously darkned by the stincking mistes which the deuill sent forth out of the bottomles pit to blynde the eyes of men that they shoulde not see the shame and nakednes of that purpled whore which in the person of the cleargy long before she gat into her seate prepared her selfe by paynting her wrythen face with the couloures of these gorgeous titles and with the shew of magnifycall and worldly pompe For the deuill knew well enough that if he should haue sette vp one only byshoppe in that seate of perdition and left all the rest in that simplicitie wherein God had appoynted them that hys eldest sonne shoulde neyther haue had any way to gette into that and when he had gotten it yet being as it were an owle amongst a sort of birdes shoulde haue bene quickly discouered But I haue done only thys I admonishe the reader that I doe not allow of all those thinges which I before alleaged in the comparison betwene our Archbyshoppes and the Archbyshops of olde tyme or our byshoppes and theirs Only my entent is to shew that although there were corruptions yet in respect of ours they be much more tollerable and that it might appeare how smale cause there is that they should alleage theyr examples to confirme the Archbyshops and Byshops that now are Concerning the offices of commissionership and how vnmeete it is that mimisters of the worde should exercise them and how that the worde of God doth not permitte any such confusion of offices there shal be by Gods grace spoken of it afterwarde To your answere also vnto the places of S. Mathew and Luke the reply is made before The place of the fourthe of the first to the Corinthyans is well alledged for it teacheth a moderate estymation of the mynisters and a meane betwene the contempt and excessiue estymation neyther can there be any redyer way to breede that disorder which was amongst the Corinthyans as to say I holde of such a one and I of such a one and I of such an other then to sette vp certayne mynisters in so hyghe Titles and great shew of worldly honoure For so commeth it to passe that the people will saye I beleeue my Lord and my Lord archbyshoppe whatsoeuer oure parson say for they bee wyse men and learned as wee see it came to passe amongst the Corrinthyans For the Apostles because they hadde a shewe and outwarde pompe of speache they caryed away the people For althoughe Saynt Paule sayeth that some sayde I holde of Paule I holde of Apollo I of Cephas yet as it appeareth in an other place they helde one of thys braue eloquent teacher an other of that For hee translated these speaches vnto hym and hys fellowes by a fygure All that rule is tyrannycall whiche is not lawfull and is more then it oughte to bee and therfore the place of Saynt Peter is fitly alleaged whereof also I haue spoken some thing before You are you say of Hemingius mynde and thincke that thys opynion smelleth of Anabaptisme I haue shewed how you haue depraued and corrupted Hemingius and desire you to shew some better reason of your opynion autos ephe will not suffice vs You say that if we had once obtayned equalitie amongst the cleargie we would attempt it in the laitie In what starre doe you see that Maister Doctor Moyses sayth that if a man speake of a thing to come and it come not to passe as he hath spoken that that man is a false Prophet if your prophesie come not to passe you know your iudgement already out of Moyses The Pharisies when our sauiour Christ inueighed agaynst their ambytion accused hym that he was no freende to Cesar and went about to discredite hym with the cyuill Magistrate you shall apply it your selfe you will needes make the Archbyshoppe c. neyghboures vnto the cyuill Magistrates and yet they almost dwell as farre a sonder as Rome and Ierusalem and as Syon and S. Peters Church there so that the house of the archbyshoppe may bee burnt sticke and stone when not so much as the smoke shall approche the house of the cyuill magistrate In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the archbyshoppe is alleaged the nynthe Canon of the Councell of Antioch which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those times was from that which is now For there the Councell sheweth that euery Byshoppe
But I will not draw the reader to suche thorney and subtile questyons it is enough for vs that the one and the other be impossible although one shoulde bee more impossible then the other And that it is impossible for one man to bee byshoppe ouer a whole prouince or ouer a whole dyocese I leaue it to bee considered of that which is before sayde in the discription of the office of a byshoppe pastor or minister where I speake of the necessitie of the residence of the byshop in hys church As a Prince may rule a whole realme such as Fraunce or Englande so may he rule the whole world by officers and magistrates appoynted vnderneath hym And there haue bene dyuers Princes which haue had as many landes vnder their power as the Pope hath had churches and although it be somewhat incōuenient yet I know not why they might not so haue comming lawfully by them Now I woulde gladly heare whether you woulde say the same of a byshoppe and if you dare not then why doe you bring the similitude of the gouernment of a Prince ouer a lande to proue that an archbyshop may be ouer a whole prouince M. Doctor dare boldly say that there may be one byshop ouer a whole prouince but he dare not say that there may be a byshop ouer the whole Church But what better warrant for the one then for the other Agayne if the whole church be in one prouince or in one realme which hath bene and is not impossible to be agayne if there may be now one byshop ouer a realme or prouince then there may be one byshop ouer all the church so that in trauayling with an archbyshop he hath brought forth a Pope But he sayth that an archbyshop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole prouince generally but in cases exempted so may doe it more easely But he should haue remembred that he assigned before the offices of archbyshop byshop to be in all those things which other ministers are that besides those offices he geueth them particulare charges So that where the office of the minister is but to preach pray minister the sacraments in hys parish the office of archbyshop bishop is to do the same and more in the whole prounice or diocese And so it followeth that it is easyer for a minister to discharge his duetie in hys parish then for an archbyshop or byshop to discharge their dueties in any one parishe of their prouince or diocese For they haue in euery parish more to doe and greater charge then the mynister of the paryshe hath then much lesse are they able to doe their dueties in all the paryshes of theyr prouinces or dyocese After M. Doctor translateth out of M. Caluin the papistes reasons for the supremacy of the Pope and M. Caluines solutions For what purpose hee knoweth I can not tell vnles it be to blot paper I know not what he shoulde meane and the quarell also which he picketh to translate thys place is yet more strange For he sayth that the authors of the admonition borowed their argumentes from the papistes when the contrary is true that they vse the reasons which they of the gospell vse agaynst the supremacy of the pope to ouerthrow the archbyshoppe And maister Doctor doth vse reasons to defende the archbyshop which the papistes vse to mayntayne the Pope For M. Doctor woulde proue that for because there is one king ouer a realme therefore there may be one byshop ouer a prouince and the papistes vse the same reason to proue the Pope to be a byshop of the whole church Shew now one reason that the authors of the admonition brought of the papistes to proue that there should be no archbyshop But now I perceiue hys meaning and that is that he thought to gette some comfort for the archbishop in M. Caluins solutions made vnto the papistes reasons for the supremacy and therfore he hath haled and pulled in as it were by the shulders thys disputation betwene the protestants and the papistes touching the supremacy And what is it that M. Caluin sayth for the archbyshop It hath bene before shewed what his iudgement was touching hauing one mynister ouer all the mynisters of a prouince and that he doth simply condemne it in hys commentary vpon the first chap. of the Phillippians Now let it be considered whether in these sentences he hath sayd any thing against hym selfe The papistes obiect that for so much as there was one high priest in Iury ouer all the church therfore there should be one byshop ouer all To whom M. Caluin answeareth that the reason followeth not for sayth he there is no reason to extend that to all the world which was profitable in one nation Heereupon M. Doctor would conclude that M. Caluine allowath one archbyshop ouer a whole prouince If one going about to proue that he may haue as many wiues as hee list woulde alledge Iacob for an Example which had two wyues and Maister Doctor should answere and say that although hee myght haue two wyues yet it followeth not that he may haue as many as he list would not Maister Doctor thinke that he had great iniurye if a man should conclude of these wordes that hys opynion is that a man may haue two wyues I thinke that he would suppose that he had great wrong and yet thus would he conclude of Maister Caluines wordes in thys first sentence whereas in deede M. Caluine declareth a little after a speciall reason why there was but one high priest in the whole land of Iury which is because he was a figure of Christ and that therby shuld be shadowed out hys sole meditation betwene God his church And therefore sheweth the forsomuch as there is none to represent or figure our sauiour Christ that his iudgement is that as there shoulde be no one ouer all the churches so should there be no one ouer any nation To the papistes obiecting for the supremacy that S. Peter was the prince cheefe of the apostles M. Caluin answereth first by denying that Peter was so and bringeth many places to proue that he was equall to the other apostles Afterward he sayth although it be graunted that Peter was cheefe yet followeth it not because one may beare rule ouer twelue being but a few in number that therefore one may rule ouer an hundreth thousand that it followeth not that that which is good amongst a few is forth with good in all the world Now let all men iudge with what conscience trust M. Doct. cyteth M. Caluin for to proue the office of the archbyshop But I maruell that he could not also see that which M. Caluin wryteth in the next sentence almost where he sayth that Christ is only the head of the church and that the church doth cleaue one to an other vnder his domynion but by what meanes according sayth he to the order and forme of pollicy which he
hath prescribed but he hath prescribed no such forme of pollicy that one byshop should be ouer all the mynisters and churches in a whole diocese or one archbyshop ouer all the ministers and churches in a whole prouince therefore thys forme of pollicy which is by archbyshops and such byshops as we haue is not the meanes to knitte vs one to an other in vnitie vnder the domynion of Christ Touching the titles and names of honor which are geuen to the Ecclesiasticall persones with vs and how that princes and cyuill magistrates may and ought to haue the title which can not be geuen to the mynisters I haue spoken before and therefore of archbyshops archdeacons and the lord byshops thus farre To the next section contayned in the. 77. 78. and a peece of the. 79. page BEfore I come to speake of prayers I will treate of the faults that are committed almost thrughout the whole Leyturgy publike seruice of the church of England Whereof one is that which is often obiected by the authors of the admonition that the forme of it is taken from the church of Antichrist as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cutte mangled as the most of the prayers the maner of mynistring the Sacraments of Mariage of Buriall Confirmation translated as it were word for word sauing that the grosse erroures and manifest impieties be taken away For although the formes ceremonies which they vsed were not vnlawfull and that they contayned nothing which is not agreeable to the word of God which I would they dyd not yet notwithstanding neyther the worde of God nor reason nor the examples of the eldest churches both Iewishe and christian doe permitte vs to vse the same formes and ceremonies being neyther commaunded of God neyther such as there may not as good as they and rather better be established For the word of God I haue shewed before both by the example of the apostles conforming the Gentiles vnto the Iewes in their ceremonies not contrariwise the Iewes to the Gentiles by that the wisedom of God hath thought it a good way to keepe hys people from the infection of idolatry and superstition to seuere them from idolaters by outwarde ceremonies and therefore hath forbidden them to do things which are in them selues very lawfull to be done Now I will adde thys further that when as the Lord was carefull to seuere them by ceremonies from other nations yet was he not so carefull to seuere them from any as from the * Egiptiās amongst whom they liued from those nations which were next neighbors vnto them because from them was the greatest feare of infection Therefore by this constant perpetuall wisedome which God vseth to keepe his people from idolatry it followeth the the religion of God should not only in matter substance but also as far as may be informe fashion differ from the of the idolaters especially the papistes which are round about vs and amongst vs For in deede it were more safe for vs to conforme our indifferent ceremonies to the Turkes which are far of then to the papistes which are so neare Common reason also doth teach that contraries are cured by their contraryes now Christianitie and Antichristianitie the gospell and popery be contraries therefore antichristianitie must be cured not by it selfe but by that which is as much as may be contrary vnto it So that a medled mingled estate of the order of the gospell the ceremonies of popery is not the best way to banish popery And therfore as to abolishe the infection of false doctrine of the papistes it is necessary to establish a diuers doctrine to abolish the tirāny of the popish gouernment necessary to plant the discipline of Christ so to heale y infection y hath crept into mens myndes by reason of the popish order of seruice it is meete that the other order were put in the place thereof Philosophie which is nothing else but reason teacheth that if a man will draw one from vice which is an extreeme vnto vertue which is the meane that it is the best way to bring hym as far from that vice as may be and that it is safer and lesse harme for him to be led somewhat too farre then he shuld be suffered to remayne within the borders and contines of that vice wherewith he is infected As if a man would bring a droncken man to sobrietie the best and nearest way is to cary hym as farre from hys excesse in druicke as may be and if a man could not keepe a meane it were better to fault in prescribing lesse then he shoulde drincke then to faulte in geuing hym more then he ought As we see to bring a sticke which is crooked to be straight we doe not only bow it so farre vntill it come to be straight but we bende it so far vntill we make it so crooked of the other side as it was before of the first side to thys end that at the last it may stand straight and as it were in the mid way betwene both the crookes which I do not therfore speake as though we ought to abolishe one euill and hurtfull ceremony for an other but that I would shew how it is more daungerous for vs that haue bene plunged in the mire of Popery to vse the Ceremonies of it then of any other idolatrous and superstitious seruice of god Thys wisedome of not conforming it selfe vnto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent hath the church followed in times passed Tertullian sayth O sayth he better is the relygion of the heathen for they vse no solemnitie of the Christians neyther the Lordes day neyther the Pentecoste and if they knew them they woulde haue nothing to doe with them for they would be afrayd least they should seeme Christians but we are not afrayd to be called heathen Constantine the Emperor speaking of the keeping of the feaste of Easter sayth that it is an vnworthy thing to haue any thing common with that most spitefull company of the Iewes And a little after he sayth that it is most absurd and agaynst reason that the Iewes should vaunt and glory that the Christians could not keepe those things without their doctrine And in an other place it is sayd after thys sort It is conuenient so to order the matter that we haue nothing common with that nation The Councelles although they dyd not obserue them selues alwayes in making of decrees thys rule yet haue kept thys consideration continually in making theyr lawes that they would haue the christians differ from others in their ceremonies * The councell of Laodicia which was afterward confirmed by the sixthe generall councell decreed that the Christians should not take vnleauened breade of the Iewes or communicate with their impietie * Also it was decreed in an other councell that they should not decke theyr houses with baye leaues and greene
of may be remoued from amongst vs to the end that we being nearelyer both ioyned vnto the sincerity of the gospell and the pollicy of other reformed churches may therby be ioyned nearer wyth the Lord and may be set so far from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thether againe our aduersaries whych desire it and by this too much agreement with them and too little wyth the reformed churches hope for it may not only be deceiued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that whych they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth whervnto they are now disobedient And as for the papistes triumphe in thys case I shall not greatly neede to feare it considering that their discords and contentions are greater and that our strife is because we would be farther from them For the other that profes the gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labor to other end then I bestowe it and that they keepe them selues in their callings commit the matter by prayer vnto the Lord leauing to the ministers of the word of god and to the magistrates that whych appertaineth vnto them To come therfore to touch thys matter I answer that there is fault in the matter and fault in the fourme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and thyngs there are wanting in the order that shuld be Of the first sort is that we may euermore be defended from all aduersity Now for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all aduersity and that euermore it semeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceiued being no prayer of faith or of the whych we can assure our selues that we shall obtaine it For if it be sayd that by the worde aduersity is meant all euill we know that it hath no such signification neither in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues whych vse the same worde in common wyth vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and calamitye from all the whych we may not desire alwayes to be deliuered And whatsoeuer can be alledged for the defence of it yet euery one that is not contentious may see that it needeth some caution or exception In the collect vpon the twelfth sonday after Trinitie sonday and likewise in one of those whych are to be sayd after the Offertorie as it is termed is done request is made that God would geue those thyngs whych we for oure vnworthynes dare not aske whych carieth wyth it still the note of the popishe seruile feare and sauoureth not of that confidence and reuerēt familiaritie that the children of God haue thorough Christ wyth their heauenly father For as we dare not wythout our sauioure Christ aske so much as a crumme of bread so there is nothing whych in hys name we dare not aske being needefull for vs and if it be not needefull why should we aske it And if all the prayers were gathered together and referred to these two heades of Gods glory and of the thyngs whych pertaine to this present life I can make no Geometricall and exact measure but verely I beleue there shal be found more then a third part of the prayers whych are not psalmes and texts of scriptures spent in praying for and praying against the commodities and incommodities of this life whych is contrary to all the arguments or contents of the prayers of the churche whych are sette downe in the scripture and especially of our sauior Christes prayer by the whych ours ought to be directed which of .vij. petitions bestoweth one only that wayes And this these foresayd prayers do not only in generall words but by deducting the commodities and incommodities of thys life into their particulare kindes we pray for the auoiding of those dangers which are nothyng neare vs as from lightning and thundering in the midst of winter from storme and tempest when the weather is most faire and the seas most calme c. It is true that vpon some vrgent calamity a prayer may and ought to be framed whych may beg eyther the commodity for want whereof the Church is in distres or the turning away of that mischeefe whych eyther approcheth or whych is alreadye vppon it but to make those prayers whych are for the present time and daunger ordinarye and dailye prayers I can not hetherto see any either scripture or example of the primitiue churche And heere for the simples sake I will set downe after what sorte thys abuse crept into the church There was one Mamercus bishop of Vienna whych in the time of great earthquakes whych were in Fraunce instituted certaine supplications whych the Grecians we of them call the Letany whych concerned that matter there is no doubte but as other discommodities rose in other countreys they likewise had prayers accordingly Nowe Pope Gregorie eyther made himselfe or gathered the supplications that were made againste the calamities of euery countrey and made of them a great Letany or supplication as Platina calleth it and gaue it to be vsed in all churches whych thing albeit all churches might do for the time in respect of the case of the casamity whych the churches suffered yet there is no cause why it should be perpetuall that was ordained but for a time and why all landes should pray to be deliuered from the incommodities that some land hathe bene troubled wyth The like may be sayd of the gloria patri and the Athanasius Crede it was first brought into the churche to the ende that nen thereby should make an open profession in the church of the diuinitie of the sonne of God against the detestable opinion of Arius and his disciples wherwith at that time maruellously swarmed almost the whole christendome now that it hath pleased the Lord to quench that fire there is no such cause whye these things should be in the church at the least why that gloria patri should be so often repeated Moreouer to make Benedictus Magnificat and Nunc dimittis ordinarye and daily prayers seemeth to be a thing not so conuenient considering that they do no more concerne vs thē all other scriptures do and then doth the Aue Maria as they called it For although they were prayers of thanks geuing in Simeon ʒacharie and the blessed virgin Mary yet can they not be so in vs whych haue not receiued lyke benefites they may be added to the number of Psalmes and so song as they be but to make daily and ordinary prayers of them is not wythout some inconuenience and disorder And so haue I answeared vnto those thyngs whych are contained in the 202. 203. pages sauing that I must admonish the reader that wheras you will proue that we ought to haue an ordinarye prayer to be deliuered from danger of thunder lightnings c. because there are examples
these things may be defended if men wil set them selues to striue and to contende yet for the desire that I haue that these thyngs should be amended and for the instruction of the simpler whych are studious of the truthe I haue bene bolde to vtter that whych I thinke not doubting also but that the light of the truthe shall be able to scatter all those mistes of reasons whych shall go about to darken the clearnes therof To the next section beginning at the. 79. page and holding on vntill the. 82. page MAister D. requireth that it should be proued vnto him that by priuate baptisme is ment baptisme by wemen First it is ment that it shuld be done by some other then the minister for that the minister is bid to geue them warning that they shuld not baptise the childe at home in their house wythout great cause and necessity Secondarily I would gladly aske him who they be that are present when the childe is so shortly after it is borne in great danger of death And last of all M. Doctor dothe not see howe he accuseth all the magistrates of thys realme of the neglect of their duety in that they allowe of the daily practising by women in baptising children if so be that the boke did not so appoynt it or permit it If he ment plainly heerein there needed not so much adoe The place of S. Mathew is as strong against womens baptising as it is against their preaching For the ministery of the word and sacraments can not be pulled in sonder whych the Lord hathe ioyned together from time to time For Noah whych was a preacher vnto the olde world of the wil of God was ordained also of God to make the Arke whych was a Sacrament and seale of hys preaching touching the destruction of the world And Abraham whom the Lord would haue to be the Doctor of hys church whych was then in his family was also commaunded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision vnto hys familye The priestes and Leuites whych were appoynted to teache the people were also appoynted to sacrifice and to minister other sacraments in the churche Likewise the same Prophets whych God stirred vp to preache he also ordained to cōfirme the same by signes and sacraments The same may be also brawne through out the new Testament as vnto euery of the twelue and afterward to the. 70. power was geuen bothe to preache the gospell and also to confirme with signes and miracles whych were seales of their doctrine And S. Paule by the commaundement that oure sauioure Christe gaue him to preache vndertoke also to baptise althoughe there were no expres wordes that licensed hym therevnto for he knewe right well that it was the perpetuall ordinance of God that the same should be the ministers of the word and sacraments Whervpon it followeth that for as much as women may not preach the gospel no not by the lawes of the realme that they ought not to minister baptisme But M. Doctor riseth vp and sayeth that a woman in the time of necessitye and when there is none other that eyther can or will preache may preache the gospell in the churche This is straunge doctrine and suche as strengtheneth the Anabaptistes handes and sauoureth stronger that wayes then any one thyng in all the admonition whych is so often condemned of Anabaptisme Hys first reason to proue it is that there are examples therof When we alledge the examples of all the churches of the apostles times to proue the election of the minister by the church and in other cases whych are generall examples approued and executed by the apostles contrary to no commaundement nor institution of God yea and as hathe bene proued according to the commaundement of God M. Doctor geueth vs oure answere in a worde that examples proue not nowe that the question is to make good womens preaching in the churche examples I will not saye of all churches but of no one church only of a fewe singulare persons not according to the commaundement of the worde of God but cleane contrary to the prescripte worde of God I say nowe examples and suche singulare examples are good proufes and strong arguments Now if the speache be a true messenger of the heart I perceiue M. doctor is of this minde that he would haue women preach in the church of England at thys time for he can not deny and he also confesseth it sometimes that thys is the time of necessity in dede it must be needes an extreme necessity that driueth to make one man pastor of two churches especially so far distant that driueth to make men which are not able to teach ministers and diuers more things which are contrary to the word of god Therfore this being a time of necessity by M. Doctors iudgement we ought to haue women to preach Besides this he sayth if neither none other can or wil preache that then women may preach but in the most churches of thys realme there is none that eyther can or will preach therefore there and in those churches women at the least if they be able may preache the gospell and consequently minister the sacraments In the. 187. page he citeth M. Caluin in the. 13. chap. section 32. to proue that women may teach wherein I maruell what he meaneth so to alledge M. Caluin continually he alledgeth the. 13. chapter and no booke as thoughe he had wrytten but one boke and in deede there is no such thing in no such chapter of any boke of hys institutions or in any other place throughout his whole workes as I am perswaded If this faulte had bene but twise or thrise I woulde haue thought it had bene the printers but now that it is continuall and so oftentimes surely he geueth great suspition that eyther some bodye hathe mocked hym wyth these places or els he would abuse others and especially him that should answer hys boke setting him to seeke that he should neuer finde As for M. Caluins iudgement what it is of womens preaching it maye appeare by that he will not by any meanes no not in the time of necessitye as they terme it suffer either woman or any lay mā to baptise or minister any sacrament and therfore not to preache And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moyses of Olda of Anna and the daughters of Philip the euangelist whych are all called prophetisses for I thinke M. doctor meaneth these exāples as for them I say it wil be hard for to shew that they euer prophesied or taught openly in any publike meeting or congregation But the surer answer is that although the Lorde doe sometimes not being vnder any law chaunge the order which he hath set in raysing vp certayne women partly to the shame of men and to humble them partly to let them vnderstand that he can if he would want their ministery yet it is not lawfull for vs to draw that into
righteousnesse of the righteous from them An other reason he hath which is that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man whether he be mynister or no mynister good or euill In deede vpon thys poynt whether he be a good or an euill mynister it dependeth not but on thys poynt whether he be a mynister or no dependeth not only the dignitie but also the being of the sacrament so that I take the baptisme of women to be no more the holy sacrament of baptisme then I take any other daily or ordinary washing of the childe Neyther lette any man thincke that I haue at vnwares slipped into thys asseueration or that I haue forgotten that sone after the times of the Apostles it was the vse of certayne churches that deacons should baptise in the tyme of necessitie as they call it For as for the baptisme of deacons I holde it to be lawfull for because although as it is wyth vs they geue hym the name of deacon yet in deede he is as he then was in the elder tymes a mynister and not a deacon And although he dyd then prouide for the poore and so had two functions which was not meete yet hys office ought to be esteemed of the principall part of hys function which was preaching and mynistring of the Sacramentes in certen cases And as for the baptysing by lay men consydering that it is not only agaynst the word of God but also founded vpon a false grounde and vpon an imagined necessitie which is none in deede it moueth me nothing at all although it be very auncient for so much as the substance of the sacrament depended cheefely of the institution and worde of God which is the forme and as it were the life of the Sacrament of which institution thys is one and of the cheefe partes that it should be celebrated by a mynister For although part of the institution in that the name of the holy Trinitie is called vpon be obserued yet if the whole institution be not it is no more a Sacrament then the papistes communion was which celebrating in one kynde tooke a part of the institution and left the other And for so much as S. Paule sayeth that a man can not preach which is not sent no not although he speake the words of the scripture and interpreate them so I can not see how a man can baptise vnlesse that he be sent to that end although he poure water and rehearse the words which are to be rehearsed in the ministery of baptisme I know there be dyuers difficultyes in thys question and therefore I was lothe to enter into it but that the answearer setteth downe so confidently that it maketh no matter for the truth of baptisme whether he be mynister or no mynister and so whether one haue a calling or no calling Wherein notwithstanding he doth not only by hys often handling of one thing confounde hys reader but hym selfe also and forgetteth that he is in an other question then which is propounded For although it should be graunted hym that the sacrament doth not depende vpon that yet hath he not that which he would haue that women may baptise For it is one thing to say the baptisme which is mynistred by women is good and effectuall and an other thing to say that it is lawfull for women to mynister baptisme For there is no man doubteth but that the baptisme which is mynistred by an hereticall mynister is effectuall and yet I thincke that M. Doctor will not say that therefore an hereticall mynister may baptise and that it is lawfull for heretikes to baptise in the church And therfore men must not only take heede as M. Doctor sayth that they vsurpe not that which they are not called vnto but they must also take heede that they receyue not functions and charges vpon them whereof they are not capable although they be thereunto called In the 153. page M. Bucers censure vpon the communion booke is cited for the allowance of that it hath touching priuate baptisme and consequently of the baptisme by women It may be that as M. Bucer although otherwyse very learned hath other grose absurdities so he may haue that But it had bene for the credite of your cause if you had shewed that out of those wrytinges which are publyshed and known to be his and not out of those wherof men may doubt whether euer he wrote any suche or no and if hee wrote whether they be corrupted by those into whose handes they came And if you would take any aduantage of M. Bucers testimony considering y a witnesse is a publike person you should haue brought hym out of your study into the Stationers shop where he mought haue bene common to others as well as to you where by hys stile and maner of wryting as it were by hys gestures countenaunces by those things that go before and come after as it were by hys head hys feete we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. For although I will not say but that thys may be Bucers doing yet it seemeth very straunge that Bucer should not only contrary to the learned wryters now but also contrary to all learned antiquity and contrary to the practise of the church whilest there was any tollerable estate alow of womens baptising Tertullian sayeth it is not permitted vnto a woman to speake in the churche nor to teache nor to baptise nor to do any worke of a man muche lesse of a mynister And in an other place although he do permit it to be done of lay men in the tyme of necessitie as it is termed yet he geueth not that lycence to the woman Epiphanius vpbraydeth Marcian that he suffred women to baptise and. in an other booke he derydeth them that they made women byshops and. in an other booke he sayth it was not graunted onto the holy mother of Christ to baptise her sonne Augustin although he were of that minde that children could not be saued without baptisme yet in the tyme of necessitie as it is called he doth not allow eyther of baptisme in priuate houses or by women but when there was daunger the women hasted to cary the children vnto the church and although he doe seeme to allow of the baptisme of a lay man in the tyme of necessitie yet there also he mentioneth not womens baptisme and further he doubteth whether the childe should be baptised agayne which was baptised by a lay man And in the fourth councel of Carthage it is simply without exception decreed y a woman ought not to baptise The authors of the Admonition obiect that necessitie of saluation is tyed to the sacramentes by thys meanes and that men are confirmed in that olde error that no man can be saued with out baptisme which in deede is true For must it not bee thought to be done of necessitie and vpon great
amendement And that this was the custome of the churches it may appeare by the. 9. of those canons whych are fathered of the apostles wher it is decreed that all the faithfull that entred into the congregation and heard the scriptures red and dyd not tary out the prayers the holy Communion should be as those whych were causers of disorders in the church seperated from the church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the church of God heard the Scriptures and afterward of wantonnes or losenes wythdrewe hym selfe from the communion of the sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerende sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared hys repentaunce But heere also may rise an other doubt of the former wordes of Moses in the boke of Numbers for seing that he maketh thys exception if they be cleane it may be sayd that those that depart do not fele themselues mete to receiue and therfore depart the other .iij. or .iiij. or moe feele themselues meete and disposed for that purpose whervpon it may seeme that it is neither reason to compell those to come which feele not themselues meete nor to reiect them that feele that good disposition and preparation in themselues For answer whervnto we must vnderstand that the vncleannes whych Moyses speaketh of was such as men could not easely auoid and whervnto they might fall sometimes by necessary duety as by handling their dead whych they were by the rule of charitye bound to burye sometimes by touching at vnwares a deade body or by sitting in the place where some vncleane body had sitten or by touching such things whych the law iudged vncleane which thing cannot be alleaged in those that are now of the church For as many as be of it and wythall of suche discretion as are able to proue and examine themselues can haue no excuse at all if they may be at the church to withdraw themselues from the holy supper of the lord For if they will say that they be not meete it may be answered vnto them that it is their owne fault and further if they be not meete to receiue the holy sacrament of the supper they are not meete to heare the woord of God they are not meete to be partakers of the prayers of the church and if they be for one they are also for the other For with that boldnes and wyth that duetye or lawfulnes I speake of those whych are of the church and of discretion to examine themselues I say wyth what lawfulnes they may offer themselues to the prayers and to the hearing of the word of God they may also offer themselues vnto the Lordes supper And to whomsoeuer of thē the Lord wil communicate himselfe by preaching the word vnto the same he wil not refuse to communicate himselfe by receiuing of the sacramēts For whosoeuer is of Gods housholde and familye he neede not be afraide to come to the Lords table nor dout but that the Lord will fede him there and whatsoeuer he be that is a membre of the body of Christ may be assured that he receiueth life frō Christ the head as well by the arteries condints of the supper of the Lord as by the preaching of the word of god So that it must needes folow that the not receiuing of those whych depart out of the church whē there is any communion celebrated procedeth either of vaine and superstitious feare growing of grose ignorance of themselues and of the holy sacraments or else of an intollerable negligence or rather contempt of the whych neither the one nor the other shuld be either borne wyth or nourished either by permitting .iij. or .iiij. to communicate alone or els in letting them whych depart go so easely away with so great a fault whych ought to be seuerely punished And vpon thys either contempt or superstitious feare drawne from the papists Lenton preparation of 40. dayes eareshrift displing c. it commeth to pas that men receyuing the supper of the Lord but seldome when they fall sicke must haue the supper ministred vnto them in their houses whych otherwise being once euery weke receiued before should not brede any such vnquietnes in thē when they can not come to receiue it Although as I haue before shewed if they had neuer receiued it before yet that priuate receiuing were not at any hand to be suffered And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faulty in the communion boke in thys poynt and the reasons why and wyth all answeared to that whych eyther M. doctor alleageth in thys place of the. 80. and. 81. and likewise in the. 152. 185. pages touching thys matter I come now vnto that whych is called the Iewishe purifying by the admonition and by the seruice boke afore time the purification of women Now to the churching of women in the which title yet kept there seemeth to be hid a great part of the Iewish purification For lyke as in the old law shee that had brought forthe a childe was holden vncleane vntill suche time as shee came to the temple to shew her selfe after shee had brought forthe a man or a woman so thys terme of churching of her canseme to import nothing els thē a banishment as it were a certen excommunication from the church during the space that is betwene the time of her deliuery of her comming vnto y church For what doth els thys churching implie but a restoring her vnto y church whych cā not be without some bar or shutting forth presupposed It is also called the thanks giuing but the principall title whych is the directory of this part of the Liturgie placed in the top of the leafe as the whych the translator best liked of is churching of women To pas by the that it wil haue thē come as nigh the communion table as may be as they came before to y high altare because I had spoken once generally against such ceremonies y of all other is most Iewish approcheth nerest vnto the Iewish purification y she is commaūded to offer accustomed offrings Wherin besides that the very word offring caryeth with it a strong sent suspitiō of a sacrifice especially being vttered simply without any addition it can not be without danger that the boke maketh the custome of the popish church whych was so corrupt to be the rule measure of this offring And although the meaning of the boke is not the it shuld be any offring for sin yet this manner of speaking may be a stūbling stock in the way of y ignorant simple the wicked obstinate therby are confirmed hardned in their corruptions The best which can be answered in this case is the it is for the relief of the minister but thē it shuld be
thys poynt and in stead that the Lord sayth sixe dayes thou mayst labor if thou wilt to say thou shalt not labor sixe dayes I do not see why the church may not as well wheras the Lord sayth thou shalt rest the seuenth day commaunde that thou shalt not rest the seuenth day For if the church may restraine the liberty that God hath geuen thē it may take away the yoke also that God hath put vpon them And whereas you say in the. 173. page that notwithstanding thys fourthe commaundement the Iewes had certaine other feastes whych they obserued in deede the Lord whych gaue thys generall law might make as many exceptions as he thought good and so long as he thought good But it foloweth not because the Lord did it that therfore the church may do it vnles it hath commaundemēt and authority from God so to do As when there is any generall plague or iudgement of God either vpon the churche or comming towardes it the Lorde commaundeth in suche a case that they should sanctifie a generall fast and proclaime ghnatsarah whych signifieth a prohibition or forbidding of ordinary works and is the same Hebrewe word wherwyth those feastes dayes are noted in the lawe wherin they shuld rest The reason of whych commaūdement of the Lord was that as they abstained that day as much as might be conueniently from meat so they might abstaine from their daily workes to the ende they might bestowe the whole day in hearing the word of God and humbling themselues in the congregation confessing their faultes and desiring the Lorde to turne away from hys fearce wrathe In thys case the churche hauing commaundement to make a holy day may and ought to do it as the church which was in Babilon did during the time of their captiuity but where it is destitute of a commaundement it may not presume by any decree to restraine that liberty whych the Lord hath geuen Nowe that I haue spoken generally of holy dayes I come vnto the apostles and other saints dayes whych are kept wyth vs And thoughe it were lawfull for the church to ordaine holy dayes to our sauioure Christe or to the blessed Trinity yet it is not therfore lawfull to institute holy dayes to the apostles and other saintes or to their remembrance For although I confes as muche as you say in the. 153. page that the church of England doth not meane by thys keping of holy dayes that the saintes shoulde be honoured or as you alledge in the. 175. and. 176. pages that wyth vs the saints are not prayed vnto or that it doth propoūd them as meritorious yet that is not enough For as we reason against the popish purgatorie that it is therfore naught for as much as neyther in the olde Testament nor in the newe there is any mention of prayer at any time for the dead so may it be reasoned against these holy dayes ordained for the remēbrance of the saintes that for so much as the old people dyd neuer keepe any feast or holy day for the remembrance eyther of Moses or Daniel or Iob or Abraham or Dauid or any other how holy or excellent so euer they were nor the apostles nor the churches in their time neuer instituted any eyther to kepe the remembrance of Stephen or of the virgin Mary or of Iohn Baptist or of any other notable and rare personage that the instituting and erecting of them nowe and thys attempt by the churches whych folowed whych haue not such certen and vndoubted interpreaters of the will of God as the prophets and apostles were whych lyued in those churches is not wythout some note of presumption for that it vndertaketh those thyngs whych the primitiue churche in the apostles times hauing greater giftes of the spirite of God then they that folowed them had durste not venter vpon Moreouer I haue shewed before what force the name of euery thyng hath to cause men to thynke so of euery thyng as it is named and therfore although you say in the. 175. page that in calling these holy dayes the dayes of suche or such a Sainte there is nothyng else meante but that the Scriptures whych are that day red concerne that saynte and contayne eyther hys callyng preachyng persecution martyrdom c. yet euery one doth not vnderstand so much For besides that the corrupt custome of popery hath caryed theyr mindes to an other interpretation the very name and appellation of the day teacheth otherwise For seing that the dayes dedicated to the Trinity and those that are consecrate to our sauior Christ are in that they be called Trinity day or the Natiuity day of our sauior Christ by and by taken to be instituted to the honor of our sauyor Christe and of the Trinity so lykewyse the people when it is called S. Paules day or the blessed virgin Maryes day can vnderstand nothing therby but that they are instituted to the honor of S. Paule or of the virgin Mary vnles they be otherwyse taught And if you say let them so be taught I haue answeared that the teaching in thys lande can not by any order whych is yet taken come to the moste parte of those whych haue drunke thys poyson and where it is taught it were good that the names were abolyshed that they should not helpe to vnteach that whych the preaching teacheth in thys behalfe Furthermore seeing the holy dayes be ceremonies of the church I see not why we may not heere renue Augustines complaint that the estate of the Iewes was more tollerable then oures is I speake in thys poynt of holy dayes for if their holy dayes and oures be accompted we shall be foūd to haue more then double as many holy dayes as they had And as for all the commodityes whych we receiue by them whereby M. doctor goeth about to proue the goodnes and lawfulnes of their institution as that the scriptures are there red and expounded the patience of those saintes in their persecution and Martyrdome is to the edifying of the church remembred and yearely renewed I say that we myght haue all those commodities wythout all those dangers whych I haue spoken of wythout any keping of yearely memory of those sayntes and as it falleth out in better and more profitable sorte For as I sayd before of the keping of Easter that it tyeth and as it were fettereth a meditation of the Easter to a fewe dayes whych should reache to all our age and time of oure lyfe so those celebrations of the memories of saintes and martyrs streighten our consideration of them vnto those dayes whych should continually be thought of daily as long as we liue And if that it be thoughte so good and profitable a thyng that thys remembrance of them should be vpon those dayes wherin they are supposed to haue dyed yet it foloweth not therefore that after thys remembrance is celebrated by hearing the scriptures concerning them and prayers made to folowe their
constancy that all the rest of the day should be kept holy in such sorte as men should be debarred of their bodely labors and of exercising their daily vocations Nowe where as maister Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in their times there were holy dayes kepte besydes the Lordes day he myght haue also cited Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian whych are of greater auncienty and would haue made more for the credit of hys cause seeing he measureth all hys truthe almoste throughe the whole booke by the croked measure and yarde of time For it is not to be denyed but thys keeping of holy dayes especially of the Easter and Pentecost are very auncient and that these holy dayes for the remembrance of Martyrs were vsed of long time But these abuses were no auncienter then other were groser also then thys was as I haue before declared and were easy further to be shewed if nede required And therefore I appeale from these examples to the scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest church that euer was whych was that in the apostles times And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes first of all was much better then of later times For Socrates confessing that neyther our sauioure Christ nor the apostles dyd decree or institute any holy dayes or lay any yoke of bondage vppon the neckes of those whych came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse first to obserue the holy dayes by custom and that as euery man was disposed at home Whych thing if it had remained in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraint it had bene much better then it is nowe and had not drawne suche daungers vpon the posteritye as did after ensue and we haue the experience of As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers Illiricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the scriptures which concerne them whose remembrance is solemnised red and expounded and yet men not debarred after from their daily works it is so much the les matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the churches to dissent from them in that poynt I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the churche Althoughe as touching M. Bullenger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vppon the Romaines there are about .xxxv. yeares sythens whych time although he holde still that the feastes dedicated vnto the Lord as of the Natiuity Easter and Pentecost may be kept yet he denyeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the apostles as it appeareth in the confession of the Tigurine church ioyned wyth others As for M. Caluine as the practise of hym and the church where he lyued was and is to admit no one holy day besides the Lords day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of hys workes as I thynke that he approued those holy dayes whych are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in hys Institution that he wil not condemne those churches whych vse them No more do we the church of Englande neyther in thys nor in other things whych are meere to be reformed For it is one thing to mislike another thyng to cōdemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the church and an other thing to condemn the church for it And as for the places cited out of the epistles to the Galathians and Collossians there is no mention of any holy dayes eyther to saintes or to any other And it appeareth also that he defendeth not other churches but the church of Geneua and answeareth not to those whych obiect against the keping of saintes dayes or any holy dayes as they are called besides the Lords day but against those whych would not haue the Lords day kept still as a day of rest from bodely labor as it may appeare both by hys place vpon the Collossians and especially in that whych is alleaged out of hys Institutions And that he meaneth nothing les then suche holy dayes as you take vpon you to defende it may appeare first in the place of the Colossians where he sayeth that the dayes of rest whych are vsed of them are vsed for pollicy sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollicy and a way to preserue the estate of things and to keepe thē in a good continuance and succes that as well the beastes as the men whych labor sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicy nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there should be so many dayes wherin men should cease from worke being a thyng whych breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouerty besides other disorders and vices whych alwayes goe in company wyth idlenes And in the place of hys Institutions he declareth hym selfe yet more plainly when he sayeth that those odde holy dayes then are wythout superstition when they be ordained only for the obseruing of discipline and order Whereby he geueth to vnderstand that he would haue them no further holy dayes then for the time whych is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the rest they shoulde be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holy dayes ascribed to Saintes by the seruice booke is a iust cause why a man can not safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice Nowe wheras maister Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter whether these things be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet being not necessary abused horribly by the papistes other being as good and better then they ought not to remaine in the church And as for Ambrose saying all truthe of whome so euer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste it I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaund of him whych careth not of whome he haue the truthe so he haue it what our sauioure Christe meant to refuse the testimony of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimony that he was the sonne of God and the holy one and what S. Paule ment to be angry and to take it so greuously that the Pithonisse sayd he and his companion were the seruaunts of the high God whych preached vnto them the way of saluation Heere was truthe and yet reiected and I would knowe whether maister Doctor would say that these spake by the spirite of god Thus whilest wythout all iudgement he snatcheth heere a sentence and there another out of the Doctors and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose chuse oute the drosse and leaue the siluer wythin a while he wil make no great difference not
doe helpe to nourish the fayth which commeth by preaching yet thys is geuen to the preaching cath exochen that is by excellency and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary meanes to worke by in the hartes of the hearers The beholding of the creatures the consideration of the making of the world and of Gods wisdome and wonderfull loue appearing in them doth nourish and strengthen fayth and yet may it not therefore in efficacy be compared to the preaching of the word of god And to know that the worde of God preached hath more force and is more effectuall then when it is red it is to be obserued whereunto the preaching is compared It is called a lifting or heauing vp of our sauiour Christ Lyke vnto the displaying of a banner as the serpent was lift vp in the wildernes As therefore that which is lyfted vp on hygh is better and easelyer seene of a great company then when it standeth or lyeth vpon the grounde or in some valley or low place so the preaching of the gospell doth offer sooner and easlyer the truth thereof vnto the fayth which is the eye of the hearer then when it is red The same also may bee sayde in that the preaching is called a cutting of the worde of God for as when the meate is cut and shred it nourisheth more then when it is not so so lykewyse it is in preaching and reading And that whiche is brought by the authors of the Admonition and so scornefully hurled away of Maister Doctor that S. Paule compareth the preaching vnto planting and watering is a very notable place to proue that there is no saluation without preaching For as the husbandman receyueth no frute vnlesse he both plant and water that which is planted euen so there is no saluation to be looked for where there is no preaching And to thys also may bee well referred that the preaching is called of Saynt Luke an opening of the scriptures whereby it is declared that they be as it were shutte or clasped or sealed vp vntill such tyme as they bee by exposition and declaration of them opened It may bee that God doth sometymes worke fayth by reading only especially wher preaching cannot bee and so hee doth sometymes without reading by a wonderfull worke of hys spirite but the ordinary wayes whereby God regenerateth hys children is by the word of God whiche is preached And therfore Salomon sayeth that where Prophesie whiche is not a bare readyng but an exposytion and applycation of the scriptures fayleth there the people pearyshe It is true the woorde bothe preached and red is all one as the fyre couered wyth ashes is the same when it is discouered But â—s when the fire is styrred vppe and discouered it geueth more heate then when it is not so the word of God by preaching and interpreating as it were styrred vp blowen maketh a greater flame in the harts of the hearers then when it is red The reason wherof is not in the word which is al one red preached but in y â— â—â— pleaseth the Lorde to worke more effectually wyth the one then with the other thereby approuing and authorysing that meanes and wayes which he especially ordayned for vs to be saued by Of infinite examples take one of the Enuche which although he had bene at Ierusalem and returning home was reading of the Prophet Esay yet he beleeued not vntill Phillip came and preached vnto hym which I neyther say to disalow reading of the scripture which is very profitable nor yet to strengthen the handes of the papistes which to banyshe the reading of the scriptures obiect the hardnesse and difficultie of the scriptures as M. Doctor doth most slaunderously vnbrotherly surmise of the authors of the Admonition but that it may appeare what a grose and a palpable error thys is that the reading of the scripture should be as effectuall as the preaching of it which God hath appoynted to be the especiall and singulare meanes to saue those whome he hath appoynted to saluation And what is thys else but to condemne the wisdome of God in ordeyning pastors and doctors to bee contynuall functions in the churches and in so carefully commending them vnto the church of the which notwithstanding there is no vse if reading be as good as preaching And although thys be very grose yet in the. 163. page where he goeth about to shew the profite of reading the scriptures in the church he is yet more absurde For there he sayeth that it may bee that some men be more edifyed by the simple reading of the scriptures then by sermons In deede if a man sleepe the sermon tyme and wake the reading time or be otherwyse deafe at the one and attentife and heedye at the other I will not deny but he may be more edifyed at the simple reading then at the sermon vnlesse it be in thys and such lyke case I know not how it may be tute that M. Doctor sayth And in deede it is as much to say that it may be that the meanes that God hath ordayned to bee the fittest and meetest to call men to saluation is not the fittest meetest meanes which a man should not once so much as thinke of without trembling and shaking euery ioynte of hym And now I thinke by thys tyme M. Doctor knoweth hys answere to hys second question which is whether reading be not preaching And if this be not sufficient that I haue said I would aske gladly of hym whether all readers be preachers and whether whosoeuer readeth preacheth for if it be true which he sayeth that reading is preaching then that is lykewyse true that all those which read preach and so a childe of 4. or 5. yeares olde is able to preach because he is able to reade And least he shoulde seeme to be thus euill aduised without some reason in the. 159. page he asketh whether if a man wryte hys sermon after reade it in the boke that readyng be preaching Heere is hard shift What if I graunted that it is preaching yet I deny that therefore he that readeth an other mans sermon preacheth and further I say that if there be any such as being able to preach for his knowledge yet for fault eyther of vtterance or memory can not do it but by readyng that which he hath written it is not conuenyent that he should be a mynister in the church For S. Paule doth not require only that the byshop or minister should be learned in the mysteries of the gospell such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in hys study the sense of the scripture but one which is apt and fitte to teach And the Prophet Malachie sheweth that he must haue the law not in hys papers but in hys lippes noting thereby that it is necessary to haue the gift of vtteraunce and Esay the Prophet saying that God had geuen hym the tonge
of the learned doth thereby declare that it is not suffycient that he be well instructed in the mystery of saluation but that he haue also the gift of vtterance Afterwarde M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule dyd not preache to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them No forsooth hys wryting to the Romaines was no more preaching then S. Paules hand or hys penne which were hys instrumentes to wryte with were hys tongue or hys lyghtes or any other partes which were hys instrumentes to speake with And S. Paule hym selfe wryting to the Romaines putteth a difference betwene hys wryting hys preaching when although he wrote vnto them yet he excuseth hym selfe that he could not come to preach vnto them saying that he was ready as much as lay in hym to preach vnto them But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching No more then the reading of Erodus Heere be good proufes It is generally denyed that reading is preaching and Mayster Doctoure without any proufe taketh it for graunted that the reading of Deuteronomie is preaching All men see how pityfull reasons these be And in the. 162. page he alledgeth that in the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by reading preaching But what dealing is thys vpon a seeming and coniecture to set down so certenly and vndoubtedly that reading is preaching then there is no one letter nor sillable that vpholdeth any such coniecture For S. Iames sayth that Moyses meaning the law red euery Saboth through out euery towne in the sinagogue was also preached or had those that preached it setting forth the order which was vsed in all the churches amongst the people of God that alwayes when they met vpon the Saboth dayes they had the scriptures first redde and then preached of and expounded which is that the authors of the Admonition doe desire and therefore complayne for that after reading followeth no preaching which any indifferent man may easely vnderstand by that that they say In the olde tyme the worde was preached now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red But Mayster Doctor heareth with hys left eare and readeth with hys left eye as though hys right eye were pulled out or hys ryght care cut of For otherwyse the other wordes which they haue touching thys matter myght easely haue bene expoūded by the argumēt matter which they handle Of mynistring of the sacramentes in priuate places by women I haue spoken before there remayneth therefore only in thys section to speake of the deacons that they ought not to minister the sacramēt Which although I haue done partly before partly afterward will do when I shall shew that it appertayneth not to them to minister the worde and therefore not the sacramentes being things the mynistery whereof ought not to be seuered yet I will in a worde answere those arguments that M. Doctor bryngeth for to proue that they may mynister the sacramentes Whereof the fyrst is that Phillip in the. 8. of the Acts baptysed There is great doubt amongst wryters which Phillip that was that S. Luke mentioneth in the eyght chapter of the Acts of the Apostles But I graūt him to be y Phillip that was the deacon answeare that he was no deacon then For the church of Ierusalem whereof he was deacon being scattered he could be no more deacon of it or distribute the money that was collected for the poore of the church And further I answeare that he was afterwarde an Euangelist and therefore preached not by vertue of hys deaconshyppe whose calling is not to preache but by that he was an Euangelist whose office put vpon hym a necessitie of preaching After you say that deacons are not permitted with vs to celebrate the Lordes supper and why then shoulde they be suffered to mynister baptisme as if the one sacrament were not as precious as the other Thys is a myserable rending a sonder of those things which God hath ioyned together not only to seperate the mynistery of the sacramentes from the word but also the mynistery of one sacrament from an other And what reason is there that it should be graunted vnto one that can not preach being as they call hym a mynister to mynister both the sacramentes whē as the same is not permitted vnto a deacon as they call hym which is able to preach I doe not speake it for that I woulde haue those which be deacons in deede that is which haue charge to prouide for the poore of some one congregation eyther preach or mynister the sacraments but I say that it is agaynst all reason to permit the mynistery of the sacramentes to those which can not preach to deny it to those which are able to preach In the. 118. page vnto the example of Phillip he addeth S. Stephen which was one of the deacons which he affirmeth to haue preached But I deny it for all that long oration which he hath in the 7. of the Actes is no sermon but a defence of hym selfe agaynst those accusations which were layde agaynst hym as M. Beza doth very learnedly substancially proue in hys annotations vpon those places of S. Stephens disputations defence Now to defend hym selfe being accused is lawfull not for the deacons only but for any other christian we read nothing that Stephen dyd there eyther touching the defence of hys cause or the sharpe rebuking of the obstinate phariseys and priestes but that the holy Martyrs of God which were no deacons nor mynisters haue done with vs when they haue bene conuented before their persecutors And where as he sayth that Philip baptised I haue shewed before by what authoritie he dyd it that is not in that he was a deacon but for that he was an Euangelist He addeth further out of Iustin Martyr that the deacons dyd distribute the bread the wyne in the admynistration of the supper Tullie sayth in a certayne place that it is as great a poynt of wysedome in an aduocate or pleader of causes to holde backe and to keepe close that which is hurtfull to hys cause as it is to speake that which is profitable M. Doctor obserueth none of these poyntes for besydes that the thinges which he brought for the defence of the seruice booke are such as they haue before appeared in seeking to defende it he manyfestly oppugneth it For before he sayde that the booke of seruice doth not permit deacons to mynister the supper of the Lord and that by way of alowing of the booke and here he proueth that the deacons dyd mynister the sacrament of the supper and that also as a thing which he doth alow of But to let that passe I beseech thee good Reader marke what a mynistring of the supper thys is which Iustin maketh mention of note with what conscience M. Doctor handeleth this cause Iustin saith that after the scriptures are red and preached of and prayers made bread and wine water was brought forth
and that the mynister made prayers and thankes geuing in the hearing of the people which is that which the Euangelistes call the blessing and hath bene of later tymes called the consecration and after that the people were partakers of them that then thys being done the deacons dyd cary of that which was left vnto those which were not present for that corruption of sending the communion vnto the houses was then in the churche agaynst which I haue before spoken now if to cary to a priuate house the breade and wyne which was blessed or set a part by prayers by obeying the institution of Christ by the mynister be to mynister the sacrament of the supper then Serapions boye of whome mention is made by Eusebius mynistred the sacrament For Serapion being sicke as I haue before shewed and sending hys boye to the mynister for the sacrament receiued the same at the handes of hys boye for that the mynister being sicke could not come hym selfe so by M. Doctors reason Serapions boye mynistred the sacrament And a man would not thinke that one that hath bene the Quenes Maiesties publike professor of diuinitie in Cambridge should not know to distinguish put a difference betwene mynistring the sacrament helping to distribute the bread and the cup of the sacrament And if M. Doctor could not learne thys in bokes yet he might haue eyther sene it or at least heard tell of it in all the reformed churches almost where the Deacons doe assist the mynister in helping of hym to distribute the cuppe and in some places also the bread for the quicker and spedyer dispatch of the people being so many in number that if they should all receiue the bread and the cuppe at the mynisters hand they should not make an end in eight houres which by that assistance may be finished in two which is tha◠that M. Caluin sayth For he sayth the Deacons dyd reach the cup maketh no mention of the bread And if thys be to mynister the sacrament then they that cut the loafe in peeces they that fetch the wine for the supper they that poure it forth from greater vessels into glasses and cuppes or whosoeuer aydeth any thing in thys action doe mynister the sacrament then the which thing there can be nothing more ridyculous In the ende M. Doctor to shut vp thys matter sayth that it is the first steppe to the mynistery and so ioyned of S. Paule in the third chapter and first Epistle to Timothe But what a reason is thys to be a Deacon is the first step to the mynistery therefore the Deacon may preach and mynister the sacraments when as the contrary rather followeth For if it be a step to the mynistery then it is not the mynistery but differeth from it and so ought not to doe the things that belong to the mynister But I deny that it is or ought to be alwayes a steppe to the mynistery I knew that it hath bene the vse of long tyme I know also that there be very many which interpreate the place of S. Paule where he speaking of the Deacons that behaue them selues well that they get them selues a good bathmon that is a degree to be a mynister or a byshop But I will shew a manifest reason why it can not so be vnderstanded which is for that as the functions of a Deacon or a mynister are dyuers so are the giftes also wherby those functions are executed likewyse dyuers And therefore there may be some men for their wisedome and grauitie discretion and faythfulnesse and whatsoeuer other giftes are required in hym that shoulde doe thys office of prouyding for the poore and to be a good Deacon which notwithstanding for some impediment in hys tongue or for want of vtterance shall neuer be able as long as he lyueth to be a good mynister of the word and therefore the giftes being dyuers wherewith those offices must be executed although it is neyther vnlawfull nor vnmeete to make of a Deacon a mynister if he haue giftes for that purpose yet I deny that S. Paule appoynteth that the Deaconship shoulde be as it were the seede or frie of the mynisters or that he meaneth by those words that the Deaconship is a steppe to the pastorshyp Which may yet also further appeare by the phrase of speach which the Apostle vseth For he doth not say that they that do the office of Deaconship well shall come to or get a good standing but he sayth that in so doing they doe gette themselues a good standing that is they get themselues authoritie estimation in the church whereby they may be both the bolder to doe their office and whereby they may doe it with more frute Whereas when they liue naughtely they neyther dare doe oftentimes that which they should doe nor yet that which they doe well taketh so good effect because of the discredite which commeth by their euill behauiour And so I conclude that M. Doctor hath brought hetherto nothing to proue why either Deacōs ought or else haue wont eyther to preach or to mynister the sacramentes And albeit M. Doctor be not able to shew it yet I confes that it hath bene in tymes past permitted vnto them in some churches to baptise in other some to preach and baptise and sometymes also to mynister the supper but I say also that thys was a corruption and vsed at those tymes when there were many other grose vntollerable abuses from the which I doe appeale vnto that which was first that is the institution of the Apostles which lymitted and bounded euery function within hys seuerall limites and borders which it ought not to passe Vnto the three next sections contayned in the. 94. 95. and a peece of the. 96. pages touching that which is called the introite and fragments of the Epistles and Gospels and the rehersall of the Nicene Crede I haue declared before the causes of our mislyking neyther meane I to stand to refute the slaunderous surmises which M. D. rayseth of the authors of the Admonition wherby he would bring thē into the suspitiō of Arrianisme to whom all those that feare God beare witnes y they are most far from He him selfe notwithstanding once again in the last of these three sections 96. page doth lay the manyfest foundations of that part of Anabaptisme which standeth in hauing al things common saying directly agaynst S. Peter that in the tyme of the Apostles Christians had proprietie in nothing And further geuing great cause of triumph of the one syde to the Catabaptistes and such as deny the baptisme of yong infants in matching that with those things which the church may although not without incommoditie yet without impietie be without and of the other syde vnto the papistes whilest he sayth that we reade not of any women which receiued the Lords supper in the Apostles tyme For thys is that they alledge to proue theyr vnwritten verityes when as
it is easely answeared both to the papistes and M. Doctor that for so much as the Apostle doth witnes that the churches of Corinth consysting of meÌ„ and women dyd receyue that therefore women also dyd receiue and were pertakers of the Lords table Thus it is manyfest that M. Doctor only to displease the authors of the Admonition sticketh not to pleasure iij. notable heretickes Anabaptists Catabaptists and Papists To the next section contayned in the. 96. and a peece of the. 97. page MAister Doctor asketh how it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After thys sorte all thinges necessarye were vsed in the churches of God in the Apostles times but examynation of those whose knowledge of the mistery of the gospell was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therfore it was vsed in the churches of God which were in the Apostles tyme Then he sayeth he is sure there is neither commaundement nor example in all the scripture In the booke of the Chronicles he might haue red that the Leuites were there commaunded to prepare the people vnto the receyuing of the passeouer in place whereof we haue the Lordes supper Now examination being a part of the preparation it followeth that heere is coÌ„maundement of the examination And how holdeth thys argument S. Paule commaundeth that euery man should proue hym selfe Ergo there is no commaundement that the mynister should proue and examine them so I may say that euery man is a spirituall king to gouerne hym selfe therefore he may not be gouerned of others The authors of the Admonition doe not meane that euery one shoulde be examyned as those whose vnderstanding in the gospell is well knowen or which doe examyne them selues and so they interpreate them selues in the. 108. page To the next section in the 97. 98. and in a peece of the. 99. pages I Haue spoken of thys bread before in generall and if Maister Doctor dyd not disagree wyth hym selfe we are heere well agreed For first he sayth it skilleth not what bread we haue and by and by he sayth that he wysheth it were common bread and assigneth a great cause which the booke of seruice lykewise assigneth which is to auoyde superstition And it is certaynely known by experience that in dyuers places the ignoraunt people y haue beene mysled in popery haue knocked and kneeled vnto it and helde vp theyr handes whilest the mynister hath geuen it not those only which haue receyued it but those which haue bene in the churche and looked on I speake of that whiche I knowe and haue sene wyth my eyes An other reason is alleaged by Mayster Bucer which is that there being some thicker substance of breade and such as should moue and stirre vp the tast better the consyderation of the mynde which is conueyed by the senses might be also the more effectuall and so the fruite of receyuing greater By the way note that eyther Bucers censures vppon the booke of seruice be falsely ascribed vnto hym or be corrupted or else were not euen in hys owne tyme heere thought good substantiall and suffycient when there is some cause by Acte of Parliament afterwarde found I meane in the second booke of kyng Edward to mislyke wafer cakes and to chaunge them into common bread How so euer it be that circumstance would be well marked that it was one thyng to talke of a wafer cake in the vse of the supper in kyng Edward dayes before they were iustly abolyshed an other thyng now being reuoked after they were remoued Besides that we be called by the example of our sauioure Christe to vse in the supper vsuall and common bread for what time our sauioure Christ celebrated hys supper there was no other breade to be gotten but vnleauened breade there being a straight charge geuen by the lawe that there should be then no leauened bread And it is not to be doubted but that if there had bene then when he celebrated hys supper as at other times nothyng but leauened breade he woulde not haue caused vnleauened bread to haue bene made for that purpose of celebrating hys supper But thys is a grosse ouersyght of M. Doctor both in thys section and that whych goeth before that he hathe not learned to make a difference betwene that whych is not sincerely done and that whych is not at all done For in the former section he triumpheth vpon the admonition because they conclude that for as muche as there is no examination therefore it is not rightly and sincerely ministred For sayeth he the examination of the communicants is not of the substance of the sacrament and in thys section he sayeth that for as muche as it is not of the substance of the sacrament whether there be leauened or vnleauened bread therfore it is not sufficiently proued that the sacrament is not sincerely ministred But he ought to haue vnderstanded that if either the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine or the forme of it whych is the institution whych thyngs are only substantiall partes were wanting that then there should haue bene no sacrament ministred at all but they being retayned and yet other things vsed whych are not conuenient the Sacrament is ministred but not sincerely For example in the popishe baptisme there was the substance of baptisme but there being vsed spyttle and creame and candels and such beggerly trumpery it was not sincerely ministred therefore it is one thyng to minister sincerely and an other thyng to minister so that that whych is of the substance shoulde be wanting But of thys distinction I haue spokeÌ„ in an other place wherinto although M. doctor falleth in the next section and in other places yet thys shall be an answere for all The meaning of the Admonition in saying their God of the altar is plain enough that it is vnderstanded of the papists but that M. Doctor doth set him selfe to draw the authors of it into hatred and he can not be ignorant that when a man speaketh of thyngs whych are notoriously knowne he often vseth the or that or their wythout naming the thyngs whych he speaketh of To the next section contained in the. 99. and a peece of the. 100. page ALthough it be not of necessity that we shuld receyue the communion sitting yet there is the same cause of abolyshing kneeling that there is of remouing the wafer cake and if there be danger of superstition in one as M. Doctor confesseth why is there not danger in the other And if there be men that take occasion to fall at the one and that by superstition howe commeth it to passe that M. Doctor in the. 180. page sayeth that neyther gospeller nor papistes obstinate nor simple can superstitiously offend in this kneelyng when as the kneeling caryeth a greater shewe of worshyp and Imprinteth in the mindes of the ignorant a stronger opinion and a deeper print of adoration then the syght of a rounde â—ake And
So M. Doctor wryte he careth not what he write Belike he thinketh the credite of hys degree of Doctorshyp will geue waight to that which is light and pithe to that which is froth or else he would neuer answere thus For then I will if thys be a good reason say that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place describe the office of the pastor or byshoppe which preacheth the woorde therefore that place proueth not that in euery congregation there should be a byshop or a pastor Besides that M. Doctor taketh vp the authors of the Admonition for reasoning negatiuely of the testimony of all the scriptures and yet hee reasoneth negatiuely of one only sentence in the scripture For he would conclude that for so much as there is no duetie of a senyor described in that place therefore there is no duety at all and consequently no senyor Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as thys place hath bene vsed to proue a pastor or byshop in euery church therfore it can not be vsed to proue these elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alledged for both the one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to them selues nor falsification of the place but only a must before M. Doctors eyes which will not let hym see a playne and euident truth which is that the word elder is generall and comprehendeth both those elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne only as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule And whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the place of the Corinthes may bee vnderstanded of cyuill magistrates of preaching mynisters of gouernoures of the whole churche and not of euery particulare churche and fynally any thing rather then that wherof it is in deede vnderstanded I say first that he styll stumbleth at one stone which is that he can not put a difference betwene the church and common wealth and so betwene the church officers which he there speaketh of and the officers of the common wealth those which are ecclesiasticall and those which are cyuill Then that he meaneth not the mynister which proacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernoure of the whole church onles he shoulde meane a Pope and if he will say he meaneth an Archbyshop which gouerneth a whole prouince besides that it is a bolde speach without all warrant I haue shewed before that the word of God alloweth of no such office and therefore it remayneth that it must be vnderstanded of thys office of Elders The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayeth of the place to the Romaines where speaking of the offyces of the church after that hee had set forth the office of the pastor and of the doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Churche whereof one was occupyed in the gouernement only the other in prouyding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manifest words of the Apostle in both these places I shoulde adde the sentences of the wryters vpon those places as M. Caluin M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easely appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to daily with the scriptures and to make them a nose of waxe in alledging of these to proue the elders that all men might vnderstand what terrible outcryes he maketh as in thys place so almost in all other when there is cause that he shoulde lay hys hand vpon hys mouth Thys I am compelled to wryte not so much to proue that there were senyors in euery church which is a thing confessed as to redeame those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations And as for the proufe of elders in euery congregation besydes hys confession I neede haue no more but hys owne reason For he sayeth that the office of these elders in euery church was in that tyme wherein there were no christian magistrates and when there was persecution but in the Apostles tymes there was both persecution and no christian magistrates therefore in theyr tyme the office of these elders was in euery congregation I come therefore to the second poynt wherein the question especially lyeth which is whether thys function be perpetuall and ought to remayne alwayes in the churche And it is to be obserued by the way that where as there are dyuers sortes of aduersaryes to thys disciplyne of the church Maister Doctor is amongst the worst For there be that saye that thys order may be vsed or not vsed now at the lybertie of the churches But M. Doctor sayeth that thys order is not for these tymes but only for those tymes when there were no christian magistrates and so doth flatly pinch at those churches which hauing christian magistrates yet notwithstanding retayne thys order still And to the ende that the vanitie of thys distinction which is that there oughte to bee senyors or auncientes in the tymes of persecution and not of peace vnder tyrantes and not vnder christian magistrates may appeare the cause why these senyors or auncientes were appoynted in the church is to bee consydered which must needes be graunted to bee for that the pastor not being able to ouersee all hym selfe and to haue hys eyes in euery corner of the church and places where the churches aboade might be helped of the auncientes Wherin the wonderfull loue of God towards hys church doth manifestly appeare that for the greater assurance of the saluation of hys dyd not content hym selfe to appoynt one only ouerseer of euery church but many ouer euery church And therefore seeing that the pastor is now in the tyme of peace and vnder a christian magistrate not able to ouersee all hym selfe nor hys eyes can not bee in euery place of the paryshe present to beholde the behauiour of the people it followeth that as well now as in the tyme of persecution as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant the office of an auncient or seignior is required Onles you will say that God hath lesse care of hys church in the time of peace and vnder a godly magistrate then he hath in the tyme of persecution and vnder a tyrant In deede if so bee the auncientes in the tyme of persecution and vnder a tyrant had medled with any office of a magistrate or had supplyed the roume of a godly magistrate in handling of any of those things which belonged vnto hym then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate being in the church the office of the senior or at least so much as he exercised of the office of a magistrate shuld haue ceased But when as the auncient neither dyd nor by any meanes might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate no more vnder a tyrant thē vnder a godly magistrate there is no reason why
the magistrate entring into the church the elder shuld be therfore thrust out For the elders office was to admonish seuerally those that dyd amisse to comfort those which he saw weake shaking and to haue neede of comfort to assist the pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions sharper or milder as the faultes required also to assist in the suspēsions from the supper of the Lord vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that party which had confessed hym selfe to haue offended or else if he remayned stubburne to assist hym in the excommunicatiō These were those things which the elders dyd which forsomuch as they may doe as well vnder a christian magistrate as vnder a tyrant as well in the tyme of peace as in the tyme of persecution it followeth that as touching the office of elders there is no distinction in the tymes of peace and persecution of a christian prince and of a tyrant But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principal offices of charitie can not be excercised is necessary and alwayes to be kept in the church But the office of auncients elders are such as with out which the principal offices of charity can not be exercised therefore it followeth that thys office is necessary That the principall offices of charity can not be exercised without thys order of auncientes it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amendeth not after he be admonyshed once priuately and then before one wytnes or two can not further be proceeded agaynst according to the commaundement of our sauior Christ onlesse there be in the church auncients and elders therefore thys principall office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of hym which hath not profited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is cōmaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not profite by these two warnings it should be tolde the church Now I would aske who be meant by the church heere if he say by the church are meant all the people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayne to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of thys matter I doe not deny but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shall be noted heereafter but the matter is not so farre come for hee must first refuse to obey the admonition of the church or euer they can proceede so farre Well if it be not the people that be meant by the church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the pastor but if he will say so and speake so straungely he must warrant it wyth some other places of scripture where the church is taken for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a company And besydes thys strangenes of speach it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraignitie of the medycine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festered sore as would neyther be healed with priuate admonition neyther with admonition before one or two witnesses For as the fault groweth so our sauiour Christ woulde haue the number of those before whome he shoulde be checked and rebuked lykewise grow Therefore from a priuate admonition he ryseth vnto the admonition before two or three from them to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a daungerouser wound should be layde an easier plaister and therefore our sauiour doth not ryse from two to one for that were not to ryse but to fall nor to proceede but to goe backward but to many Seeing then that the church heere is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the church here he meaneth the pastor with the auncients or elders Or else whome can he meane And as for thys manner of speach wherein by the church is vnderstanded the cheefe gouernours and elders of the church it is oftentymes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borowed thys maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayde That Moses wrought hys myracles before the people when mention is made before only of the elders of the people whome Moses had called together And most manifestly in * Iosue where it is sayde that he that kylled a man at vnwares shall returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregration to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernoures of the congregation for it dyd not appertayne to all to iudge of thys case Lykewyse in the Chronicles and dyuers other places And therefore I conclude that forsomuch as those be necessary and perpetuall which are spoken of in those wordes tell the Church and that vnder those wordes are comprehended the elders or auncientes that the elders and auncientes be necessary and perpetuall officers in the church Furthermore S. Paule hauing entreated throughout the whole first Epistle to Timothe of the orders which ought to be in the church of God and of the gouernment as hym selfe wytnesseth in the third chapter of that Epistle whē he sayeth he wrote that Epistle to teach Timothe how he shoulde behaue hym selfe in the house of God and hauing set forth both byshoppe and elder and deacons as mynisters and officers of the church in the shutting vp of hys Epistle he for the obseruation of all the orders of that Epistle adiureth Timothe and with the inuocation of the name of God strayghtly chargeth hym to obserue those thinges which hee had prescribed in that Epistle I charge thee sayeth hee before God which quickeneth all things and before Iesus Christ which witnessed vnder Pontius Pilate a good profession that thou keepe thys commaundement without spot or blemishe vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ The wayght of which sentence for the obseruing of those things which are mentioned in thys Epistle that it may be the better vnderstanded I will note the wordes seuerally First therefore it is to be noted that he sayeth I denounce or I charge He doth not say I exhorte or giue counsell leauing it to the lyberty of Timothe Secondarely it is to be noted that he calleth the whole Epistle a commaūdement and therefore it is no permission so that it may be lawfull for the churches to leaue it or to keepe it Thirdly when he maketh mention of the lyuing God and of Christ which witnessed a good profession vnder Pontius Pilate he sheweth that the thinges contayned in thys Epistle are such as for the mayntenaunce thereof wee ought not to doubt to geue our lyues and that they be not such as we ought to kepe so that we haue them without strife and without sweate or easely but such as for the keeping of them if we haue them and for the obtayning of them if we haue them not I will not say
our honoures or our commodities and wealth but as I haue sayd our lyues ought not to be deare vnto vs For therefore doth hee make mention of the confession of Christ vnto the death that he might shew vs an example and forthwith speaketh of God which rayseth from the dead that by thys meanes he might comfort Timothe if he should be brought into any trouble for the defence of any of these things Fourthly if we refer those wordes without spot or blemish vnto the commaundement as I for my part thinke they ought to be then there is a waight in these words not to be passed ouer which is that the apostle will not only haue the rules heere contayned not troden vnder the feete or broken in peeces but hee will not haue them so much as in any one small poynt or specke neglected But I see how M. Doctor will wype away all thys and say that these thinges or some of them were to bee obserued thus necessarily and precisely vntill there were christian prynces and peace in the churche but the print is deeper then that it will bee so washed away Therefore it is to be obserued what he sayeth in the latter end of the sentence where he chargeth Timothe and in hym all that hee should keepe all these things not vntill the tyme of peace or to the times of Christian Princes but euen vntill the comming or appearing of our sauiour Christ which is as long as the world lasteth And therfore I conclude that the seigniors or elders of the church being a part of that order and gouernment of the church which S. Paule appoynteth in thys Epistle are necessary perpetuall and by no meanes to be changed So that we haue not only now the examples of all the primitiue churches which ought to moue vs if there were no commaundement but we haue also a straight commaundement I say the onely examples ought to moue vs for what way can we safelyer follow then the common hygh way beaten and troden by the steps of all the Apostles and of all the churches Things also growing and being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred why shoulde we thinke but that the churches now will prosper by that gouernment whereby it first came vp But I say we haue not only the examples of the churches but wee haue also commaundement and strayght charge to keepe thys office of elders and auncientes in the church and therefore it is not onely rashnesse in leauing the way that the Apostles and churches by the Apostles aduise haue gone but disobedyence also to depart from theyr commaundement and to mayntayne and defend that we may doe so I can almost geue it no gentler name then rebellion Now I will come to Mayster Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth and fourteene and a hundred and fifteene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery church in tymes past but sayth that it ought not now so to bee For sayeth hee the tymes alter the gouernment and it can not be gouerned in the tyme of prosperitie as in the tyme of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayeth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperity will not beare the Elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godly prince as well as vnder a tyrant onles thys be a reason that because the godly prince doth nourishe the church as a cyuill magistrate therefore the auncientes may not nourish it as Ecclesiasticall ouerseers Now seeing Maister Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the tyme of the Apostles as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant I will shew hym that although they be alwayes necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now then in the apostles times greater necessyty vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant First of all in the apostles tymes it is knowne that the giftes of the spirite of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauaile were poured forth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the pastoures and mynisters of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnyshed with the giftes needefull for their mynistery then are the mynisters of these dayes Wherupon I conclude that if the ayde and assistance of the pastor by the Elders was thought necessary by the apostles in those tymes when the mynisters were so well and so richly replenished with such giftes much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the mynisters of these dayes wherein their giftes of discretion and knowledge and dyligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose handes so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes other handes then the mynisters now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier then theirs were haue much more neede of thys ayde then they had Agayne if S. Paule dyd charge the persecuted therefore pore churches with the fineding and prouiding for the senyors in euery church as it appeareth in the Epistle to Timothe where he sayeth that Elders whiche rule well are worthy double honour whereby he signifyeth a plentifull rewarde and suche as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholdes as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the churche in attending vpon the sicke and vppon the straungers shoulde be honoured that is haue that wherewyth shee might honestly and soberly liue if I say Saynt Paule woulde charge the churches then with mayntayning the elders which being poore were not sometimes hable to liue without some reliefe from the church because they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affaires to wayte of the affaires of the church how much more ought there now to be senyors when the churches be in peace and therefore not so pore and when there may be chosen such for the most part thoroughout the realme as are able to liue without charging the church any whit as the practise of these dayes doth manifestly declare And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the gospell adapanon that is free and without charges as much as is possible and so loth to lay any burthen vpon the churches especially those which were poore dyd notwithstanding enioyne the mayntenaunce of the elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted how much more shall we thincke that hys mynde was that the Churches which liue in peace and are rich and may haue thys office without charge ought to receiue thys order of auncientes Moreouer those that be learned know that the gouernement of the church which was in the apostles tymes being partly in respect of the people that had to doe in the elections and other things popular partly in respect of the pastors and auncientes Aristocraticall that
that they had also some care to prouide for the poore and that they were such as dyd mynister the sacramentes And in an other Councell they haue authoritie geuen them to make subdeacons exorcists and readers I know thys was a corruption of the mynistery but yet all men see how Maister Doctor looketh as it were a farre of vpon things and therefore taketh a man for a molehill when he would make vs beleeue that these were chauncelors c. In the. 125. page to the admonition desyring that these may be remoued and the eldershyp establyshed according to Gods order M. Doctor aunswereth that that were to place in stede of wise and discrete men vnlearned ignorant and vnapt to rule Let Maister Doctor take heede least in alowing so well of the popishe ceremonies not only as tollerable but as fitte and then acquainting hym selfe with the papistes maner of speaking in saying that the people be ignoraunt and vnlearned he fal or ouer he be aware into some worse thing Moses in Deuteronomie and Salomon in hys prouerbes place the principall wisedome in keeking Gods commaundementes and in fearing god And Dauid sayeth that the secretes and the priuy councell of the Lord is knowen to those which feare hym and I haue shewed out of S. Paule that he geueth to the spirituall man great discretion and iudgement of things If therefore there be in euery church which feare God and keepe hys commaundementes there are both wise and learned discrete men and therefore not to be spoken of so contemptuously as M. Doctor speaketh And God be praysed there are numbers in the church that are hable to be teachers vnto most of the chauncelors in any matter perteyning to the church and are hable to geue a ryper iudgement in any ecclesiastical matter then the most part of them can And besides that the choysest are to be taken to thys office thys ought not to be forgotten that seeing good successe of thinges depend vppon the blessing of God and that blessing followeth the church when the Lordes order is kept simple men which carry no great countenaunce or shew will vndoubtedly doe more good vnto the church hauing a lawfull calling then those of great port whiche haue no such calling In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbyshoppes Courte necessary but bringeth no reason and further confesseth hym selfe ignoraunt of the estate of it and therefore I know not from whence that good opynion of hys shoulde come onlesse it be from thence that he lyketh of all things be they neuer so euill whych the admonition missyketh The rest which M. D. hath of thys matter is nothing else but great and high wordes And as for the Canon law it is knowen what a stroke it beareth with vs and that a few cases excepted it remayneth in her former effect To the sections beginning in the. 118. page and holding on vntill the. 123. page It was before shewed that of the gouernoures of the church there were some whose charge pertayned vnto the whole church of the which we haue spoken some other whose charges extend but to a part of the church that is vnto the poore and these are the deacons And as in the former part I shewed there were two kindes so in this latter part the same is to be noted that of those whose charge was ouer the poore some had charge ouer all the poore of the church as those which are called deacons some had charge ouer the poore straungers and those poore which were sicke only and those S. Paule calleth in one place Dyaconisses and in an other place widdowes For the deacons dyd distribute vnto the necessyties as well of the poore straungers and the sicke poore as vnto the other poore of the church And the widdowes did employ their laboures to the washing of the feete of the straungers and attending vppon the poore which were sicke and had no frendes to keepe them First I will speake of the deacons whereas M. Doctor cryeth out of daiying with the scriptures for alledging the. 8. verse of the twelfth vnto the Romaines to proue deacons affirming that there is no worde of them Truely I can fynde no wordes to set forth thys so grosse ignorance And had it not bene enough for M. Doctor to haue vttered thys ignorance but he must also with an outery proclayme it and as it were spred the banner of it What doe these wordes note he that distributeth in simplicitie but the office of the deaconshyp For in that place S. Paule reckeneth vp all the ordinary and perpetuall offices of the church as the office of the doctor of the pastor of the deacon of the elder and leaueth not out so muche as the widdow which he comprehendeth in these wordes shewing mercy If the authors of the Admonition doe daily with the scriptures in thys place surely Maister Caluin M Beza M. Bucer Peter Martyr c. doe dally with them And shall all these be esteemed to play with the scriptures and M. Doctor only to handle them seriously And as M. Doctors ignorance appeareth in thys place so hys mynde not desirous of the truth but secking to cauill doth as manifestly shew it selfe For all men see that the admonition alledgeth not the place to the Tessalonians to proue the office of deacons but to shew that idle vagavondes might not haue any of that reliefe which belongeth vnto those which bee poore in deede which thing appeareth both by the placing of the quotation ouer agaynst that allegation by the letter which directeth therunto And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of the deacons is not only to prouide for the poore but also to preach and mynister the sacramentes I haue shewed before that it doth not appertayne vnto them to doe eyther the one or the other For the proofe whereof thys place of the Romaines quoted by the admonition is very fit most proper For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which not contenting themselues with their owne vocatiōs dyd breake into that which appertayned vnto others as if the hand should take vpon it the office of the eye or of some other member of the body therfore S. Paule doth as it were bound point the limites of euery office in the church so placeth the deacons office only in the preuysion for the poore Thys one thing I will adde to that matter that if the apostles whiche hadde suche excellent and passing gyftes dyd fynde them selues preaching of the woorde and attending to prayer not able to prouyde for the poore but thought it necessarye to dyscharge them selues of that offyce to the ende they myght doe the other effectually and fruitefully hee that shall doe both now must eyther doe none well and profitably or else hee must haue greater giftes then the Apostles had The seconde poynt is touching that there were deacons in euery churche which is well proued of the admonition both by the place of the
appoynted and to punish those which fayle in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders cerimonyes of the church they doe where there is a constituted and ordered church pertayne vnto the mynisters of the church and to the ecclesiastycall gouernoures and that as they meddle not with the making of cyuill lawes and lawes for the common wealth so the cyuill magistrate hath not to ordayne cerimonies pertayning to the churche But if those to whome that doth appertayne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them and dryue them to better for so much as the ciuill magistrate hath thys charge to see that nothing be done agaynst the glory of God in hys domynion Thys distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the. 2. booke of the Chronicles he shall see that there were a number appoynted for the matters of the Lord which were priestes and leuites and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongst which were the Leuites which being more in number then coulde be applyed to the vse of the churche were set ouer cyuill causes being therefore most fit for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the politicke lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please hym that the making of orders and geuing of iudgementes in cyuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and church matters pertayned vnto dyuers persons which distinction the wryter to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth that the Priest was ordayned in things pertayning to God. Thys might Maister Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble emperor * Constantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered which he doth also permit the Byshops Elders and Deacans of churches to doe eyther by correcting or adding or making new if neede be And by the contynuall practise of the church in the tyme of christian Emperors which alwayes permitted vnto the mynisters assembled in councelles as well the determynation of controuersies which rose as the making or the abolyshing of needefull or hurtfull cerimonies as the case required Also by the Emperoures epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperoures to confirme the ordinaunces which were made by the mynisters and to see them kept The practise of thys he myght haue also most playnly seene in Ambrose who wold by no meanes suffer that the causes of the churches should be debated in the Princes consistory or court but would haue them handled in the church by those that had the gouernment of the church and therefore excuseth hym selfe to the emperour Valentinian for that being conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill court he came not And by whome can the matters and orders of the church bee better ordayned then by the mynisters of the church And if that be a good reason of Maister Doctor in the fortie and seuenth page that the Byshoppes ought therefore to ordayne mynisters because they are best hable to iudge of the learning and habylitie of those which are the fyttest it is also as good reason that therefore the mynisters and gouernours of the church should appoynt and decree of such ceremonyes and orders as pertayne to the church for because it is to be supposed that they can best iudge of those matters bestowing theyr studyes that wayes and further best vnderstanding the estate of the church about the which they are wholy occupyed And this is not Maister Doctor to shake handes with the papistes For the papistes would exempt their priestes from the subiection and from the punyshment of the cyuill magistrate which we doe not And the papistes would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determyne that that forthwith should be holden for good and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that bee it good or euill without further inquiry but wee say that if there bee no lawfull mynistery to set good orders as in rumous decayes and ouerthrowes of relygion that then the Prince ought to doe it and if when there is a lawfull mynistery it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that which is lawfull and meete And if thys be to shake handes with the papistes then Maister Doctor is to blame which hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the church belongeth vnto the church And yet I know that there is one or two of the later wryters that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduauntage of their authoritie which thinke as I doe so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so much as we haue M. Doctor yet of thys iudgement that the church ceremonies shoulde bee ordayned by the church I will trauaile no further in thys matter consydering that the practise of thys church commonly is to referre these matters vnto the ecclesiasticall persons only thys is the difference that where it is done now of one or a few wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page where hee most vntruely and slaunderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them as though they should deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all sythens the tyme that the Queenes maiestye began to raigne manyfestly contrary not onely to theyr meaning but also to theyr very words which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation to contende or to labour to perfection denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maiesties dayes is thorough and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God euery one of vs is most deepely bounde vnto her maiesty whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to delyuer his church heere out of the spirituall Egipt of popery and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of straungers whereunto it was so neare Thys I say we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly geue most humble thankes to God therefore And by thys humble sute and earnest desire whiche wee haue for further reformation we are so far from vnthankfulnes vnto her maiesty that we thereby desire the heape of her felicitie the establishment of her royal throne amongst vs which then shall be most sure and vnremoued when our sauiour Christ sytteth wholy and fully not only in hys chayre to teach but also in hys throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by hys spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of hys church by
wrytings and paraphrases vpon the scryptures are estemed comparable in that kinde of paraphrasticall wryting wyth any whych hath laboured that wayes And if any mennes wrytings were to be red in the church those paraphrases whych in explanyng the scrypture go least from it and whych kepe not only the numbre of sentences but almost the very numbre of words were of all most fitte to be red in the churche Seeing therfore I say the church of God then abstained from such interpretations in the church and contented it selfe wyth the scryptures it can not be but a moste dangerous attempt to bryng any thyng into the church to be red besydes the word of god Thys practise continued still in the churches of God after the apostles times as may apeare by the second Apologie of Iustin Martyr which sheweth that theyr manner was to read in the church the monuments of the prophets and of the apostles and if they had red any thyng else it is to be supposed that he would haue set it downe consydering that hys purpose there is to shewe the whole order whych was vsed in their churches then The same may appear in the first Homilye of Oregine vpon Exodus and vpon the Iudges And as for M. Bucers authoritye I haue shewed before how it ought to be wayghed heere also it is suspitious for that it is sayd that hys aduise was when the lord should blesse the realme wyth moe learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilyes whych should be red in the church vnto the people As if M. Bucer dyd not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme whych were able to make homilies so many as the volume of them myght easely haue exceeded the volume of the Byble if the multytude of homilyes would haue done so much good And if the authority of M. Bucer beare so great a sway wyth M. Doctor that vpon hys credite only wythout eyther scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those whych are now he dare thrust into the church homilies then the authorities of the most ancient best councels ought to haue ben considered whych haue geuen charge that nothyng should be red in the church but only the canonicall scriptures For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea the nothing shuld be red in the church but the canonicall bokes of the olde and newe testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterward as corruptions grew in the church it was permitted that homilies myght be red by the deacon when the minister was sicke and coulde not preach and it was also in an other councel of Carthage permitted that the martyrs liues might be red in the church But besides the euill successe that those decrees had vnder pretence wherof the popishe legende and Gregories homilies c. crept in that vse and custome was controlled by other councels as may appeare by the coūcell of Colen albeit otherwyse popishe And truely if there were nothing else but thys consideration that the bringing in of the reading of Martyrs liues into the church and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not only by thys meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teach all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure And if any man obiect that by thys meanes also is shut out of the churche the forme of ordinary prayers to be sayd I say the case is nothing lyke for when we pray we can not vse the words of the scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so muche as the churche prayeth for diuers thyngs necessarye for it the whych are not contained in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some thyngs whych we haue neede of whereof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needefull that there be a forme of Prayer drawne forthe out of the scrypture whych the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasyon of the time dothe require whych necessity can not be by no meanes alledged in the reading of Homilies or Apochrypha Wherevpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordained in the churche of Englande where bothe Homilies and Apochrypha are red especially when as diuers chapters of the bookes called Apocrypha are lyfted vp so high that they are sometime appoynted for extraordinary lessons vpon feastes dayes wherin the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall scripture as certen chapters of the Apocalipse quite left oute and not red at all Vnto the two next sections I haue answeared before where I haue entreated of holy dayes and of kneeling at the Communion it followeth to speake vnto the section contained in the. 183. and. 184. pages ALthough it will be hard for you to proue that thys worde priest commeth of the Greke word presbyteros yet that is not the matter but the case stādeth in thys that for so much as the common and vsuall speach of England is to note by the word priest not a minister of the gospel but a sacrificer which the minister of the gospell is not therefore we ought not to call the ministers of the gospell priests and that thys is the Englishe speache it appeareth by all the English translations whych translate alwayes hiereis whych were sacrificers priests and do not of the other syde for any that euer I red translate presbyteron a priest Seeing therfore a priest wyth vs and in our tonge dothe signifye both by the papistes iudgement in respect of their abhominable masse and also by the iudgement of the protestant in respect of the beasts whych were offered in the law a sacrificing office whych the minister of the gospell neyther dothe nor can execute it is manifest that it can not be wythout great offence so vsed The next three sections I haue before answeared wher I haue spoken of the abuses in baptisme crossing and interrogatories it foloweth to speake vnto the section contained in 194. 195. 196. pa. IF it be M. Bucers iudgement whych is alledged heere for the ring I see that sometimes Homere sleapeth For first of all I haue shewed that it is not lawfull to institute new signes and sacraments and then it is dangerous to doe it especially in this whych confirmeth the false and popyshe opinion of a sacrament as is alledged by the admonition And thirdly to make suche fonde allegories of the laying downe of the money of the roundnes of the ring and of the mystery of the fourth finger is let me speake it wyth hys good leaue very ridiculous and farre vnlike hym selfe And fourthly that he wil haue the minister to preach vpon these toyes surely it sauoreth not of the learning and sharpnes of the
of the archbyshops it followeth to speake vnto the remnant of that section which is contayned in the. 214. 215. 216. 217. 218. pages for vnto a part therof which is comprehended in the. 213. and a peece of the. 214. page I haue answeared in the same treatise of the Archbyshops THe places alledged by the Admonition to proue that mynisters of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one only excepted are well and fitly alledged and most of them vsed to that ende of wryters which if I should name all would confesse that they are such as with whome M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day For the first place if so be that the mynister ought rather to leaue necessary dueties of burying hys father saluting hys frends vndone then that he shoulde not accomplysh hys ministery to the full much more he ought not to take vpon hym those thinges which are not only not necessary dueties but as it shall appeare doe in no case belong vnto hym And although it may be applyed to all Chrystians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the mynisters And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauyoure Chrystes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce betweene the brethren it is moste aptly alledged to thys purpose For althoughe our sauioure Christe doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet hee sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to intermeddle in the iudgement of cyuil causes For our sauioure Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he being a Minister of the Gospell dyd all those things which were pertayning to hys mynistery So by refusing thys office of iudgement in cyuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was the ministery And therfore it is altogether out of season that M. D. here alledgeth that the Anabaptistes vse thys reason to proue that christians may not haue magistrates For how doth thys follow that because thys place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there coulde bee no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alledgeth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for hym but doth quite ouerthrow hys cause For he sayeth that our sauiour Christ dyd not refuse thys as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but because it dyd not agree with hys vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a mynister of the gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a mynister of the gospell to iudge or to entermeddle in cyuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins works as by hys often allegation of hym he woulde make the world beleue he might haue * red in hym thys sentence cited for thys purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to doe with ciuill things Furthermore M. D. asketh what S. Paules place to the Romanes where he willeth that he which hath an office must waite of that office he that teacheth of his teaching maketh to thys purpose Surely M. Doc. very much Neither can there be a place more properly alledged both for the very playnes of the words also for the circumstāce of the place For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which would ouerreach their callings hauing certeine callings contented not them selues with them but woulde haue an ore in euery mans boate and would take more vpon them then they were able to doe or the measure of theyr giftes would stretch vnto And therefore sheweth that as the body is best preserued when euery member thereof doth hys office and destroyed when one member will take vpon it to do the office of an other so the church is then best gouerned when euery Ecclesiasticall person keepeth hym selfe within the limits of hys calling not medling with that which pertayneth vnto an other But M. Doctor sayeth that the byshoppe gouerneth as well by disciplyne as by preaching so he doth But I pray you by what dysciplyne what a reason is thys he gouerneth by discipline ergo by ciuill disciplyne You say in the next sentence that the authors of the admonition either dote or dreame But if these be your sharpe disputations when you are awake surely they are very blunt when you dreame But I had rather iudge the best that Maister Doctor was ouer-watched The last place which is alledged by the admonition is out of the epistle to Tim. where it sheweth that for so much as the estate of a minister is as that of a souldier therfore as the souldyer to the end he myght the better please hys captaine doe hys seruice of warfare quitteth all those things which he loueth whereof otherwyse he might haue care and might enioy euen so the mynister ought to dispatch hym selfe of all those things which may be any let to the office of hys mynistery although he might otherwise lawfully vse thē And if so be for the performing of the ministery to the full he must quite those things which he may lawfully vse how much more might the admonition conclude that he ought not to entangle himselfe with those things which out of the places of S. Luke and to the Romaines it had shewed to be vnlawfull for hym to meddle with And although M. D. say the sentence be generall yet it is particularly ment and most properly of the mynisters which Maister Caluin teacheth M. Doctor in the same place where he hath cited hys authoritie twise to no purpose For what although M. Caluin doe not there apply in prescript words thys sentence to proue that mynisters ought not to meddle with cyuill offices doth it follow therefore that thys place can not be vsed thereto In saying that he ought to abstayne from all lets which may hinder his vocation ministery he doth cōsequently say that he ought to abstayne from all ciuill offices And if so be M. Doct. had bene so well red in the auncient doctors as he would seeme he might haue knowen that thys place is vsed of * Cyprian to the same purpose that it is alledged heere For Cyprian speaking agaynst an elder which had taken vpon him to be executor to one which was dead alledgeth thys place To these reasons of the admonition may be added that which the admonition hath in the. 230. page that the regiment of the church is spirituall and respecteth the conscience therefore hath not to do with ciuill offices which respect properly the common wealth and the outward godly honest and quiet behauior And therefore their meaning is ▪ that as the ciuill gouernor doth vse such kinde of punishment as may bridle the outward man hold hym
that he dare not offende in the open breache of that godlynes honesty and quietnes which Saynt Paule commendeth vnto vs so the Ecclesiasticall regyment doth vse that kynde of dysciplyne whereby the consience and inwarde man may bee kept in that willing obedyence vnto Gods commaundement touching a godlye honest and quyet lyfe And to note the distinction of these regymentes cyuill and spirituall the place vnto the Thessalonyans is well alledged for by the wordes suche as rule ouer you in the Lord the Apostle doth putte a difference beetweene the cyuill and ecclesiasticall regymente For albeit that godlye cyuill magistrates doe rule ouer vs in the Lorde yet Saynt Paule catexochen that is by excellencye ascrybeth that vnto the Ecclesiasticall gouernoures because that whereas the cyuill magistrate besyde hys care for the saluation of the soules of hys people is occupyed in procuring also the wealth and quyetnes of thys lyfe the Ecclesiasticall gouernors haue all their whole care set vpon that only â–ª which perteyneth to the lyfe to come And to thys end also is alledged by the admonition the place of Tim. wherein the apostle teacheth part of the ecclesiasticall dysciplyne which the mynister may vse to consist in reprehensions and rebukes which must be tempered according as the estate and age of euery one doth require Theyr meaning is not as M. Doctor vntruely surmyseth to shut out the cyuill magistrate or to debar hym of punishing the wicked but that it appertayneth not vnto the mynisters to deale that wayes whose correction of faultes lyeth partly in reprehensions and admonitions which he speaketh of there partly in excommunication wherof is spoken before Further touching the place of the Ephesians for so much as our sauior Christ as he is head of hys church is the spirituall gouernor thereof it is meete that their gouernement which are appoynted vnderneath hym as he is head shoulde be lykewise spirituall as hys is For as for the cyuill magistrate although hee be appoynted of Christ as he is God in which respect there is none aboue Christ yet hee is not appoynted of hym in respect that he is head of the church in regarde wherof God is aboue Christ and as the apostle sayeth the head of hym Now that I haue shewed that the places quoted by the admonition are for the most part to the purpose of that they be quoted for I wil adde a reason or two to thys pourpose before I come to answer to those reasons which are brought by M. Doctor Here I must desire the reader to remember which I sayde before when I spake agaynst non residencie the multitude difficultie of those things which are required of the mynister of the word of god And with all I wil leaue to the consyderation of euery one the great infirmitie and weakenes which is in men both the which consyderations set together it will easely appeare how vnmeete a thing it is that the mynister shoulde haue any other charge layde vppon hym seeing that it being so wayghty an office as will require all the gyftes he hath be they neuer so great it must needes fall out that so much as he doth in an other calling so much he leaueth vndone in thys And what the hand of man is able to reach herein it is to be considered in the apostles whome if the office of the mynistery dyd so wholy occupy and set a worke that they could admyt no other charge with it yea were fayne to cast of that which they had it is cleare that none of those which lyue now can besyde that function admytte any other publyke calling The story is knowen in the Actes that the apostles euen during the tyme that they kept together at Ierusalem and taught the church there were fayne that they might the better attend vnto preaching and praying by which two things S. Luke summarely setteth forth the office of the mynistery to geue ouer the charge of prouiding for the poore vnto others because they were not hable to doe both Now for so much as the Apostles endued with such giftes as none haue bene since or shal be hereafter coulde not discharge together with the office of the mynister that also of the deacon how should any man be founde that together with that office can discharge the office of a ciuill magistrate And if the Apostles would not haue the office of a Deacon which was ecclesiasticall and therefore of the same kynde with the mynistery ioyned vnto it how much lesse will they suffer that the mynistery should be ioyned with a ciuill office and therefore of an other kynde For reason teacheth that there is an easyer mingling of those which are of one kynd then of those which are of dyuers kyndes Agayne how can we iustly reproue the papistes for the vse of both the swordes spirituall and materiall when as we are found in the same fault our selues And surely howsoeuer long custome hath caused it to seme yet in deede it is a very great and vntollerable confusion which may be the easelyer vnderstanded if so be we set before our eyes how vncomely and disordered it is in the lyke or rather in the very same case For let vs imagine the Mayor or Baylife of a towne or the King or Emperor of the lande to come into the pulpet and make a sermon afterwarde to mynister the Sacramentes and from the Church to goe with the scepter in hys hand vnto the place of iudgement who would not be amased to see this and wonder at it as at a straunge and monstrous sight assuredly the selfe same deformity it is when as the Mynister of the word is made a Iustice of peace of Quorum a Commyssioner an Earle or any such lyke to whome the iudgement of matters pertayning to the courte of the ciuill Magistrate is committed especially seeing there are God be praysed of the Nobilitie and gentry of the realme that are able to discharge these offices much better then these Ecclesiasticall persones to whome they are committed And if so be that there fall out any question at any tyme which is to be decided by the word of God and wherein the aduise of the mynister is needefull there the mynisters helpe may and ought to bee required For thereof we haue not only an example in Esra where the Princes in a matter of difficultie came asked the counsell of Esra but we haue a plaine commaundement in Moses by the Lord â–ª who commaunded that the cause of pertury should be heard before the Lord in the sanctuary at the hearing wherof the high priest shuld be present by which commaundement the Lord doth not by bringing thys cause into the sanctuary declare that the iudgement therof dyd appertayne vnto the Ecclesiasticall court but because it being a matter which touched the glory of God very expresly hee woulde haue the Princes which were iudges there to be the nearer touched and the depelyer affected with
the glory of God whereof they saw the sacrament before theyr eyes Neyther is the hyghe priest commaunded to be present to thys ende that he should sitte as iudge of that matter but that he might dissolue the difficulties if any rose of the vnderstanding of the law and that hee myght pricke forward and styre vp by admonition the Princes to whome the iudgement appertayned if so bee he should see them colde slacke to reuenge the iniury done vnto the Lorde Which thing may the better appeare in that the handling of the matter is there appoynted not vnto the priestes but vnto the iudges or princes only and so lykewyse of matrimony and diuorse although the iudgement thereof appertayne vnto the ciuill magistrate yet the minister if there be any difficulty in knowing when it is a lawfull contract when the dyuorse is lawfull maye and ought to bee consulted wyth Thus may the common wealth and church enioy both the wysedome learning which is in the mynister things may bee done in that order which God hath appoynted without suche confounding and iombling of offyces and iurisdictions together For although Aristotles obeliscolychnion and Platoes dorydrepanon that is instrumentes seruing to two purposes bee lawfull in offyces of the common wealth where things are more free and left in greater liberty to bee ordered at the iudgement and aduise of men especially consydering that vppon the diuersitye of the formes of common wealthes varietie of regiment may spring yet in the church of God where things are brought to a strayghter rule and which is but one and vniforme the same may not bee suffered And yet euen those coÌ„mon wealth Philosophers which doe lycence vpon occasion that two offices may meete in one man holde that it is best and conuenientest that euery one shoulde haue a particulare charge For Aristotle sayeth that it is most agreeable to nature that hen shoulde be pros hen that is one instrument to one vse And Plato vseth the prouerbe mede heracleis pros duo against those which wil take vpon them diuers vocations and not content them selues with one so that they make the meting of many functions in one man to be a remedy only in extreme neede pouerty of able men And although both be vnlawfull yet as the case standeth in our realme it is more tellerable that the ciuill magistrate should doe the office of a minister then that the minister shuld intermeddle with the function of the magistrate For when the accountes shall be cast it will fall out that there are more sufficient able men to serue in the common wealth of thys realme then in the churche and greater wante in the one then in the other And if besyde thys both authoritie of the werd of God and lyght of reason wee will looke vnto the practise of the church many yeares after the time of the Apostles we shall finde that the church hath bene very carefull from time to time that thys order should bee kept that the ministers shuld not entangle them selues with any thing beside their ministery and those things which the word of God doth necessaryly put vpon them leâ—st the strength of their minde of their body being distracted vnto many thinges they should be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministery vnto the full Which may also partly appeare by that which I haue alledged out of Cyprian which will not permit them so much as to bee executors of a Testament And in one of the Canons whiche are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they should not entangle them selues with worldly offices but attend vpon their Ecclesiasticall affaires Further in the councell of Calcedon it was decreed that none of the clearkes or cleargie as it termeth them shoulde receiue any charge of those which are vnder age vnlesse they were suche as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon hym which it calleth inexcusable charges meaning by all lykelyhoode the wardshyp of hys brothers children or some suche thing Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue beene for that there were certeine mynisters which were stewardes to noble men And in the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed that none of the cleargy should either goe to warfare as souldyers or captaynes or should receiue any secular honors and if they dyd they shoulde bee excommunicated or accursed Now I come to M. Doctors argumentes which he bringeth to establish thys disorder And first he sayeth mynisters of the word may not occupy them selues in wordly busines as to be marchants husbandmen craftes men and such like but they may exercise cyuill offices Where first of all I perceiue M. Doctor is of thys mynde that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne or when a man must take great toyle of the body to breake it but it may be broken with getting of honor and doing of those things which may be done with out soyle with great commendation there it is lawfull to breake it In deede so the Poete but in the person of an vniust and ambition man sayd ei chre adicein tyrannidos heneca chre that is If a man must do vniustly he must doe it to beare rule Secondarely I doe see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hyndered from hys ministery by a paire of yron fetters but if he can get a payre of golden fetters he is conteÌ„ted to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministery committed vnto hym For onles these should be the causes which should moue hym to take the one and refuse the other verely I see none For where as he sayth it is a helpe maynteineth relygion in deede that is the reason of the papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in hys institution And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquity by corporall punishmentes and by cyuill corrections yet it doth no more follow that that should be done by the mynisters then it followeth that for that preaching and mynistring the sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessary therefore the same is fitte to be executed by the cyuill magistrate I graunt the mynisters haue also to punyshe vice for as the cyuill magistrates punishe lyghter faultes with some penalty of money or losse of membre so the churche and the mynister especially with the church hath to punishe faultes by represions and rebukes And as the cyuill magistrate punisheth greater faultes by death so the mynister with other whiche haue intereste hath with the sworde of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious to cut them from the church as the other doth from the common wealth And if it be a helpe to the mynisters office that he shoulde meddle with ciuill punishmeÌ„ts why shuld it not be a helpe vnto the magistrates office that he should excommunicate and other things pertayning to the ecclesiasticall disciplyne And where as M. Doctor sayth they may
But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to run ouer hys bootes And last of all to proue that byshoppes may haue prisons hee citeth Peter which punyshed Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor must vnderstand that thys was Ecclesiasticall power and was done by vertue of that function which S. Paule calleth dynamin which is one of those functions that the Lord placed in hys church for a tyme But is thys a good argument because S. Peter punished with the word therefore the mynister may punyshe with the sworde And because S. Peter dyd so once therefore the byshop may doe so alway because S. Peter dyd that which appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate and which no ciuill magistrate by any meanes may or can doe therefore the mynister may doe that which appertayneth vnto the ciuill magistrate For if there had bene a ciuill magistrate the same could not haue punyshed thys fault of dissimulation which was not knowen nor declared it selfe by any outwarde action So that if thys example proue any thing it proueth that the mynister may doe that no man may doe but the Lord only which is to punysh faultes that are hyd and vnknowne If thys be ignoraunce it is very grosse if it be agaynst knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determyned with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor hys outcries and declamations and if I should haue vsed them as often as he geueth occasion there would be no end of wryting The Lord geue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Vnto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church as also vnto three or foure such like demaunds which hee maketh in thys booke the authors of the Admonition answeare at once that thys and the other are sounde in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Heere I will take in that whych the byshop of Salesbury hath in the last page of hys halfe sheete touching thys matter And first of all I wel agree that he sayth that to geue vnto sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an Ecclesiasticall person by reprehensyon or putting hym out of the ministerye if the case so require is meere ecclesiasticall and not ciuill and that those thyngs ought to be done of the offycers of the church Thys only I deny that the ministers ought to meddle wyth ciuill offyces For proofe whereof the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine whych as Possidonius wryteth was troubled wyth the hearing determinyng of causes Wherin Possidonius sayeth nothyng but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister wyth the elders ought bothe to heare and determine of causes but of suche causes as pertaine vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidonius ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustin as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that whych he wryteth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certen in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accompted of thys as of compulsyon and restraint from hys better busynesses whereby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not wyth those worldly affaires further then by waye of giuing counsell whych is not vnlawful for a minister to do as one friend vnto an other so that hys mynisterye be not thereby hindered And for the truthe of thys matter that ministers ought not to meddle wyth ciuill affaires I will appeale to no other then to the byshop hym selfe who dothe affirme plainly the same that the admonition heere affirmeth And therfore I conclude that for so much as bothe the holy scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill offyces and reason and the practise of the church doe confirme it that they ought to kepe thēselues within the limites of the ministerye and Ecclesiasticall functions least whilest they breake forthe into the calling of a magistrate in steade of shewing themselues episcopous that is ouerseers they be found to declare themselues * allotriopiscopous that is busy bodyes medling in thyngs whych belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whych they knowe well enoughe that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon that is to say studye to adorne that charge whych they take in hande and doe professe I leaue to speake any further of thys matter Vnto the two next sections I haue spoken in that whych hathe bene sayde touchyng excommunication canons and prebendaries c. and vnto that whych is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsons and vicars be a great plague vnto this church and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Lykewise vnto the two next sectiōs I haue answeared before in speaking against the spirituall courts whych are now vsed and vnto the next after that in speaking of the ordayning of ministers And vnto that whych is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall iudge of the aptnes or vnaptnes of our reasons and albeit we do finde fault with diuers thyngs in the booke yet we neyther oppugne as enemyes nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puretanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs And to the prayer agaynst disturbers of the churche I say wyth all my heart Amen Vnto the next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise whych declareth to whome it doth appertaine to make ceremonyes and orders of the church And vnto the section contained in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions answeareth of garlike For the authors of the admonition desyring that it myght be as lawful for them to publishe by Printe their mindes or to be heard dispute or that theyr minde put in wryting myghte be openly debated maister D. answeareth wyth Augustines sentence whych he hath made the foote of hys song nothing to the purpose of that whych they said the performance of which promise we wil notwythstanding wayte for Vnto the section contayned in the. 245. and. 246. pages HEre maister Doctor contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Admonition whych declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe sayth that therfore they will not subscribe because they are required by lawfull authoritye Whych howe bothe presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whych hath bene declared And where maister Doctor wold vpon the marginall note proue that we haue good discipline because we haue good doctrine and thervpon doth wonderfully tryumphe he playeth as he of whome it is sayde meden labon cratei carteros that is hauyng gotten nothyng holdeth it fast For can M. doctor be so ignorant that thys manner of speach doctrine and discipline
reading is but bare feading the discorde is in hys cares not in their wordes For when they sayde it was no feading they meant suche feeding as could saue them and so in calling it bare feading they note that there is not enough in that to keepe them from famishment And in deede vnles the Lord worke miraculously and extraordinarily whych is not to beloked for of vs the bare reading of the scriptures wythout the preachyng can not delyuer so much as one poore sheepe from destruction and from the wolfe And if some haue ben conuerted wonderfully yet M. doctor should remember that potamos ouc aei axinas pherei that is The water doth not alway beare iron And vpon the thirde leafe where he geueth instance in the Apocalypse of the worde priest to be taken otherwyse then for the Leuiticall priesthode and priesthode of our sauioure Christe Maister D. can not be ignorant that the admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deede properly and not by those whych are priests by a Metaphore and borowed speache And whereas he desyreth to learne where the word priest is taken in euill parte in all the new Testament Although all men see how he asketh thys question of no minde to learne yet if he will learne as he sayeth he shall finde that in the actes of the apostles it is taken diuers tunes in euill parte For seeing that the office and function of ron iereon that is of priests was after our sauyor Christes ascencion naught and vngodly The name wherby they were called whych dyd exercise that vngodly function can not be otherwyse taken then in the euill parte M. Doctor vpon the. 5. leafe citeth M. Caluins authority to proue that the laying on of the handes vpon yong children and the Confirmation whych is heere vsed is good In the whych place although he allow of a kinde of Confirmation yet he doth not commende that whych we haue For he dothe plainly reproue Ierom for saying that it came from the apostles whych notwythstanding the Confirmation wyth vs dothe affirme Besydes that there are other abuses whych I haue noted there whych M. Caluin doth not by any word allow He alloweth in deede of a putting on of handes of the children when they come oute of their childehode or begin to be yong men but as well as he doth allow of it he was one of those whych did thruste it oute of the churche where he was pastor And so he alloweth of it that he bryngeth in the sixt section of the same chapter a strong reason to abolyshe it Where he asketh what the imposition of handes should do now seeing that the geuing of the giftes of the holy ghost by that ceremony is ceased Therfore seeing that we haue M. Caluins reason against thys imposition of hands hys name ought not to be preiudiciall vnto vs especially seing that we haue experience of great inconuenyences whych come by it whych M. Caluin coulde not haue that thyng being not in vse in that church where he lyued Whych inconuenience in thyngs whych are not necessary oughte to be a iust cause of abolyshing of them And thys is not my iudgement only but the iudgement of the churches of Heluetia Berne Tigurine Geneua Scotlande and diuers others as appeareth in the. 19. chapter of their confession Vpon the. 6. leafe M. Doctor sayth that the Pope taketh the sword from Princes but our byshops take it at their hands and geuen of them as thoughe chalenge were not made agaynst the Pope for vsing the materiall sworde and not only for vsing it against the wil of the princes For by that reason if Prynces would put their swordes in hys hand as sometymes they haue done he myghte lawfully vse them And wheras he sayeth that our church men meddle not with all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but suche as helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the church and the state What sayth he that is not truely sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme for no one dothe meddle in all causes And further I woulde gladly knowe what ciuill iurisdiction is in thys realme whych helpeth not vnto the good gouernment of thys church and state For if they meddle wyth all that there is none whych they haue not to do with Vpon the. 7. leafe he sayth that he knoweth not the meaning of the admonition when it proueth that the gouernment of the church is spiritual their meaning is plaine enoughe and I haue declared it more at large to be not only that our sauyor Christ ruleth by hys spirite in the hearts of hys elect besides whych gouernment M. doctor seemeth to know none But that there is also spiritual gouernmēt whych is in the whole church visible to be sene exercised by those whome God hath appoynted in hys stead called spirituall because where as the ciuill gouernment vseth the sword thys vseth the word and where the ciuill gouernor addresseth hymselfe vnto the bodye and hathe that for speciall matter to worke on the spirituall gouernors be occupied in reforming the minde and subduing that wyth those punishments and corrections whych God hath appoynted for that purpose Whych signification of spirituall gouernment M. Caluine doth speake of in bothe the places alledged by M. doctor and especially in the later vnto whom the admonition sent the reader not therby to giue more waight vnto the truth but that he myght haue there a plainer and fuller vnderstanding of that whych it meant and could not for that breuity and shortnes whych it foloweth throughout vtter at large Wherby it is manifest that the admonition is so farre from shutting out eyther ciuill gouernment or externall gouernment in the church that it teacheth of an externall gouernment whych M. doctor semeth not to haue heard of allbeit there be nothing eyther more common in the scryptures or Ecclesiasticall wryters Vpon the. 8. leafe M. doctor sayth he seeth nothyng howe the place of the Ephesians maketh any thing against this maner of speach of the bishop receiue the holy ghost and yet it maketh thus much that for as much as the apostles did vse to pray that the grace of God might be geuen vnto men the byshops shoulde not vse this manner of speache which containeth the forme of a cōmaundement Vpon the. 9. leafe he hath sondry greeuous accusations and charges of disorder disobedience and contempt against those whych refuse the apparel and laboureth to persuade that they are great and waighty matters But hys profes were spent before As for answeare to the articles collected out of the admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors boke where I haue shewed howe the admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise then either it meaneth or speaketh whervnto I will referre the reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not pas by the secrete philosophy whereby M.
a light foote the Heades and Summes of things then to number the faultes which are almost as many as there are sentences in thys booke more I am sure then there are pages ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgement of the later wryters concerning these matters in controuersy betwene vs Wherein because I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make myne to grow I haue kept thys moderation that I neither sette down all the wryters nor all their places that I could nor yet of euery singuler matter but the chefest wryters and other of the cheefest poyntes or else of those wherein they are alleadged agaynst vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eche as farre as I could iudge and choose out most direct to that wherefore I haue alleaged it For otherwyse if I would haue spoken of all the poyntes and of the iudgement of all the wryters and gathered all the places that I could they woulde haue bene sufficient matter of an other booke as bigge or rather bigger then thys I must also admonish the Reader that I haue for borne in certeine of these Titles to set downe the iudgements of M. Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter because they are comprehended in the Confessyon of the Churches And thus partly vpon those sentences which I haue alleaged in thys booke and partely vpon these Testimonies heere set downe I leaue to the consyderation of all men how truely and iustly it is sayde that the learned wryters of these tymes one or two onely excepted are agaynst vs. 1 That there ought now to be the same regiment of the Church which was in the Apostles tyme. THe confession of the Heluetian Tygurin Berne Geneua Polonia Hungary and Scotland with others in the. 18. chapter speaking of the equality of the ministers sayth that no man may iustly forbyd to returne to the old constitution of the church of God and to receiue it before the custome of man. M. Caluin in hys Institututions 4. booke 3. chapter and 8. section speaking of the auncientes which dyd assist the pastor in euery church sayth that experiēce teacheth that that order was not for one age that thys office of gouernment is necessary to all ages And in the. 12. chapter and first section of the same booke sayth as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiasticall censures Peter Martyr vpon the third to the Rom. teacheth that although the common wealth chaunge her gouernment yet the church alwayes kepeth hers still Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ 15. chapter lamenteth that there were founde amongst those which are counted of the forwardest christians which woulde not haue the same disciplyne vsed now that was in the times of the Apostles obiecting the differences of tymes and of men 2. That one mynister ought not to haue any dominion ouer an other The foresayde Heluetian Confession c. in the seuententh Chapter sayeth that Christ dyd most seuerely prohibite vnto hys Apostles their successors primacy domynion in the 18. Chap. sayth that equall power function in geuen vnto all the mynisters of the church that from the beginning no one preferred him selfe to a nother sauing only the for order some one dyd call thē together propounde the matters that were to be consulted of gathered the voyces c. Musculus in hys Common places in the chap. of the offices of the mynisters of the word sayth that in the Apostolike church the ministers of the word were none aboue an other nor subiect to any heade or president mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree then an other And further he sayth vppon the second chap. of the second Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a byshop being taken from the rest of the mynisters and geuen to one was the first step to the papacie how so euer in other places he speaketh otherwyse 3. That the election of mynisters pertayneth not to one man. The foresayd Heluetian Confession c. in the. 18. Chapter sayth that the mynisters ought to be chosen of the church or by those which are lawfully deputed of the church and afterward ordayned with publike prayers M. Caluin in hys 4. booke of Institutions 3. chap. 15. section sheweth that the Church dyd chuse and that the Apostles dyd monderate the election and confuteth them which vpon the places of Titus and Timothe would proue that the election belongeth to one man. 4. That there ought now to be elders to gouerne the church with the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluin hath bene before declared in the first of these propositions M. Beza in hys booke of diuorces page 161. sayeth that the Eldershyp of the church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Touching Deacons M. Caluin 4. boke 3. chap. 9. section after that hee had described what deacons the churches had in the Apostles tymes sayeth that we after their example ought to haue the lyke M. Beza in the. 5. cap. and. 23. section of hys confessions sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the church is an ordinary function in a church lawfully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship P. Martyr vpon the. 12. to the Rom. speaking of the Elders which did asist the pastor in euery Church of the Deacons lamenteth that thys order is so fallen out of the church that the names of these functions do skarce remayne M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ for the auncientes of the Church sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery church ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chap. of the same booke sayeth that thys order of Deaconshyppe was relygiously kept in the church vntill it was driuen out by Antichrist 5. That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Church M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. booke and. 11. chap. and. 6. section teacheth that Excommunication pertayneth not to one man that it was too wicked a fact that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to himselfe alone opened a way to tyranny tooke from the Church her right and abrogated the church Senate ordayned by the spirite of Christ And in the. 12. chap. and. 7. section hee sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Church M. Beza in hys confessions 5. chap. 43. section sayeth that thys power of excommunicating is geuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. to the Corinthes and. 5. chap. sayeth that it is very daungerous to permit so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and will of any one man And therfore both that tyranny might be auoyded and thys censure executed with greater frute
not be husbandmen crafts mē c. yet may haue ciuil offices I thinke far otherwise that although neither be lawfull yet the one were more tollerable then the other For seing after the ministery of the word there is no calling vnder the sunne weightyer and which requireth greater exercise of the mynde then the office of the magistrate it is agaynst all reason to lay this heauy burthen vpon a man that is already loden and hath as much as he is able to beare It were more equall if they will needes adde vnto the weyght of thys burthen to lay some lyghter charge of exercising handy craft then to breake hys backe with the charge of a cyuill magistrate And whereas in the pollicy of M. Doctor it semeth a furtherance to the gospell to ioyne these together which was also the pollicy of the Idolaters as I haue before declared in the wisedome of God it hath semed farre otherwyse which I doubt not dyd therfore separate the ministery from thys pompe whiche is commendable in the cyuill magistrate least the efficacy and power of the simplicitie of the word of God and of the mynistery should be obscured whilest men would attribute the conuersion of soules vnto the gospell dew vnto the worde and to the spirite of God to these gloryous shewes And least whylest the mynyster haue the woorde in one hande and the sword in the other men should not be able to iudge so well in their consciences of the mighty operation of the worde of God in them For they might doubt with them selues whether the feare out ward shew of the mynister caryed some stroke with them in beleuing the word But M. Doctor sayeth that cyuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall it is so and yet when they are compared with the ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so muche as they together with the care of relygion procure and prouide for the things wherby we may quietly and commodiously lyue here where the ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and only bent to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly spirituall which you take marchandyse husbandry and the handy craft be heauenly and spyrituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God returne to hym agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to hys glory so that if the mynister may exercise all thinges which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bring hym downe to the plough as promote hym to the courte And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissyoner is ecclesiasticall because it handleth ecclesiasticall causes I meruayle that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betweene geuing iudyciall sentences and appoynting bodely punishmentes which are meere cyuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defyneth of it which is a thing common as wel vnto the magistrate as vnto the minister and wherein the mynister because he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with An other of Maister Doctors reasons is that as kinges doe serue Christ by making lawes for hym so byshoppes doe serue Christ by executing lawes for him As though it pertayned not vnto the magistrates to execute lawes aswell as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking law because by executing them he doth cause the lawes after a fashion to speake Thys is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betwene hym and the byshop yea to geue the byshoppe the best part of it For wee know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the prince from executing the lawes then as hys similytude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by thys meanes it haltes downe ryght and is no simylitude As for Elie and Samuell they are extraordinary examples which may thereby appeare for that both these offices first meting in Melchisedech afterward in Moses were by the commaundement of God seuered when as the Lord toke from Moses being so wise godly a man the priesthode gaue it to Aaron and to hys successors And so for so much as when the Lord would polishe hys church make it famous renoumed in the world he gaue thys order It appeareth that he wold haue this to be a perpetuall rule vnto his church And by so much it is the clearer for that the Lord did not tary vntil Moses death but toke the priesthode away frō Moses which was a man as able to execute both as eyther Elie or Samuell And thys may be also easely seene for that in a maner alwayes where there was any good and stayed estate of the churche these offices were mynistred by seuerall persons and then met were mingled when the estates were very ruinous and myserable And if thys be a good reason to proue that mynisters may exercise ciuill offices it is as good a reason to proue that princes may preach and mynister the sacramentes For if the mynisters may exercise ciuill offices because Elie and Samuell being mynisters did so the Princes and Iudges may preach the word and mynister the sacramentes because Elie and Samuell being princes and iudges dyd so And so we see how M. Doctor going about to defende one confusion bringeth in an other As for Elias killing the false prophetes and our sauiour Christes whipping out of the temple it is strange that Maister Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may cal for fire from heauen as Elias dyd and being demaunded answere nothing as our sauiour dyd as to follow these actions which are most singular and extraordinary And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath set by thys a man may proue that the mynisters may be fyshers and tent makers because Peter and Paule being mynisters dyd fyshe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a councell that rather then a mynister should haue two benefices he might labor with hys handes to supply hys want withall When S. Paule willed Tim. that he should not receiue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he dyd commit nothing les then any ciuill office vnto hym And M. Doctor hym selfe hath alledged it before as a thing incident to the office of a byshop and therefore he doth forget hymselfe maruellously now that maketh thys a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thincke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgement that the church in the tyme of persecution may make ciuill officers