If it belong to the spirit how is the presence of Christ applied therunto But to answer directly to the place thus you dispute If Christ haue promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world then he hath promised it that he might teach the Church all truth But he hath promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world Therefore he hath promised it that he might teach them all truth Admit all this were granted yet would it not follow hereupon that the Church therefore could not erre because as I answered before perhaps they would not haue care to learne and remember all though our Sauiour were readie to teach them all I denie the consequence of your proposition First because they to whom our Sauiour maketh this promise are not the Church as you vnderstand the Church that is the Cleargie of whose teaching you wholy speake but the faithfull ioyntly and seuerally as well hearers as teachers as well euery one as all together This appeareth by the text Go teach all nations c. and behold I am with you till the end of the world With whom With you that teach only Nay rather with al beleeuers for all which he praied as well as for the teachers So haue the ancient writers expounded and vnderstood this place He doth not say he will be with them onely saith Chrysostome but also with all that shall beleeue after them For the Apostles were not to continue to the end of the world but he speaketh to the faithfull as to one bodie Christ sheweth saith Jerome that he will neuer depart from them that beleeue So doth Cyprian make it common to all beleeuers that confesse the truth of God in time of triall So doth Leo to all that are adopted He that is gone vp into Heauen saith Leo doth not forsake them that are adopted So Beda he remaineth with his elect in this world protecting thē To which purpose S. Austin saith that this promise is fulfilled by our Sauiour in that he is present according to his maiestie according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakable and inuisible grace With all that beleeue saith Gaudentius I will be with you that is saith Denys the Charterhouse monke with you and your successors and with all the faithfull or militant Church And thereupon he gathereth that the faith shall neuer wholy faile but Christian religion shall continue in some till the end of the world The like collection Rabanus maketh Hereby saith he it is vnderstood that there shall neuer be some wanting till the ende of the world who shall be worthie or fit for God to dwell in The Councell of Vienna as Gregorie de Valentia saith expounded the place of Christ being present in the Sacrament which is common to all beleeuers lib. 3. Clement de relique vener sanctorum c. si Dominum Secondly the consequence is naught because the ende of Christs presence is not to teach the Church all truth but to protect and defend them by his power in the profession of the truth So it is applied as we heard before by Cyprian to the comfort of the Christians then imprisoned for religion So doth Austin take it that he is present by his prouidence and diuine Maiestie The same is Haymo his iudgement and exposition But Martialis is most plaine who by this promise exhorteth thē of Tholouse in France to perseuere in the profession of religion because our Sauiour Christ will neuer leaue thē but alwaies be present with them He confirmeth and encourageth them saith Theophylact because he sent them to the Gentiles into dangers and hazards of their liues And Chrysostome thinketh wherein also Theophyl secondeth him that our Sauiour mentioneth the end of the world because he would haue them with more patience and constancy endure what soeuer hard measure for a time vpon earth in regard of the ioyes whereof they should be made partakers in the world to come If then this promise of our Sauiour belong to all euery true beleeuer if it be vttered for the comfort of all such that they may rest vpon his mighty protection who seeth not that an impossibilitie of your Cleargies erring cannot be concluded from it 1 The places of Iohn are thus to be concluded If our Sauiour haue promised the spirit of truth to a certain company of men to abide with thē for euer teach thē all truth then the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith But Christ hath promised the spirit so to a certain cōpany of men Therfore the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith First I answer that your conclusion proueth not the point in question because this companie to which the promise is made is not the Church from time to time but that promise belongeth to the Apostles either onely or at the least principally in such a measure of being taught The former may thus appeare because our Sauiour speaketh of another comforter in respect of his owne bodily departure from them which cannot belong to the Church now with which Christ was neuer present in that sort Secondly this spirit promised was to bring all things that Christ had taught to their remembrance whom he should teach But this cannot belong to the present Church nor to any Church since the Apostles Thirdly this sending of the spirit was performed when the holy Ghost came vpon the Apostles which doth not befall the Church now a dayes Fourthly the same spirit was to shew them the things to come either concerning themselues in particular or by giuing them the gift of prophesie which now the Church hath not Thus do Tertullian and Austin vnderstand these places applying them to the Apostles so doth Iansenius bishop of Gaunt so Chrysostome and Theophylact so your ordinary Glosses and Lyra. And whereas this interpretation may seeme to be refuted by the place it selfe because the spirit must abide with them to whom he is promised for euer that is expounded by Chrysostome to signifie his continuance with them euen after death also Which Theophylact sets out more at large His companie with you saith our Sauiour shall not be for a time as mine but shall continue for euer neither shall it faile when you are dead but shall remaine with you and shall make you more glorious He promiseth saith your Glosse that the spirit shall do all not that all is fulfilled in this life This Comforter saith Lyra shall not be taken from you as my humane nature is drawne away by death but shall be with you eternally here by grace but in the world to come by glorie We may perhaps conceiue our Sauiours meaning to be no more but that the spirit which hee would send should not leaue them as he was to do but should abide
are professedly against him Fourthly it may be that by the Church our Sauiour vnderstandeth according to the custome of the Iewes in those daies not any assemblie of the Cleargie about Church causes but generally the Councell of the Elders which had power to end diuers matters betwixt parties of their owne nation After which example the Apostle willeth the Corinthians to appoint Iudges amongst themselues that they might not dishonor God the professiō of christianity by going to law one with another vnder infidels If this course take not effect then saith our Sauiour deale with him as thou wouldest mightst deale with an heathen or Publican by following the Law against him in what Court thou thinkest best for thy aduantage And this exposition as farre as I can yet see seemeth agreeable to the text it selfe the purpose of our Sauiour who seemeth to speake onely or especially of priuat abuses and quarrels as might be shewed by diuers reasons and in part hath bene by a learned writer to whom I referre the Reader in this point Fiftly it is more then manifest that our Sauiour speaketh not of hearing or not hearing the word but of some quarell or sinfull action at the most which also is to be determined or corrected in each seuerall congregatiō as the testimonies of Chrysostome Theophylact Iansenius and Bellarmine declare Tell the Church not the vniuersall Church spread ouer the face of the earth but that particular Church in which euery man liueth and to which he is subiect saith Lucas of Bruges There is a treatise that goes vnder Cyprians name wherein the author out of this place concludeth that euery man must seeke to his owne Bishop All these things considered let euery one iudge whether this peece of scripture be fitly applied by you to proue that we must beleeue without doubting whatsoeuer the Church deliuereth But I wil propound the reason that all men may vnderstand and consider it If he that being proceeded withall first by admonition of one man alone then by the like with one or two witnesses lastly by the gouerners of the Church concerning some quarrell or matter of fact will not obey the voyce of the Church must be to vs as an heathen or a Publican then whosoeuer wil not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture But he that being so proceeded against in such a matter will not obey is so to be accounted of Therefore he that will not beleeue whatsoeuer the Church teacheth is greatly threatned in the Scripture I haue framed this Syllogisme as euery man may see with the greatest aduantage that can reasonably be taken by this place to your purpose whereas I needed not haue allowed the interpretation on which the reason is grounded Al which notwithstanding who discerneth not the weaknesse of the consequence in the proposition What if such a man be so to be accounted of doth it follow therupon that euery one who beleeueth not the Church in all points is threatned First vnlesse the same course of proceeding be held why should the partie be threatned because where such a course is taken there a man is to be so reckoned of Secondly how doth it follow that if in iudgement concerning a matter of fact the Church must be hearkned to for reformation then in all matters whatsoeuer it is absolutely to be heard by all men Such are your proofes in points of greatest importance I refer the Reader to that which I answered before concerning this place to which I adde vpon the present occasion that our Sauiour sending forth his Ministers to preach the Gospell chargeth them to square their doctrine according to those things which they had receiued in commission from him therfore are they no farther to be obeyed then their preaching is warrantable for the particulars out of our Sauiours instructions giuen them which the Apostles directed by Gods spirit truly and faithfully deliuered first by word of mouth and after by writing to be the pillar as Irenaeus saith and foundation of our faith And if this place conuey any such authoritie to the Church it giueth the same to euery seuerall teacher as it did to euery one of the Apostles seuerally and so euery priest secular or regular must be heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach A. D. §. 9. Thus you see our Sauiour Christ hath promised to his Church the continuall presence of himselfe and of his holy Spirit to teach that companie all truth Whereof followeth that it is infallibly taught all truth Moreouer he hath giuen charge and commission to that Church to teach vs and hath warranted and commaunded vs in all points to heare and do according to the saying of this Church which proueth that it appertaineth to this church to instruct vs in all points of faith and that we ought to learne of it in all matters of religion what is the infallible truth and consequently that the doctrine of this Church is the rule of faith A. W. Neither we nor you can see any such thing if we looke no farther then the holy Ghost directeth vs who assureth vs of no more but that the Apostles should be so instructed and guided that they should not erre in their teaching either by word of mouth or by writing by reason of ignorance or any other peruerse affection and that all the childrē of God shall be so taught and protected that they shall neuer fall away from saluation by Christ As for your Church or certaine companie that is your Cleargie and Pope assembled in a generall Councell neither those places of Scripture you haue brought nor any other you can bring once make mention of any such promise to them Therefore haue we no warrant to heare and doe in all points according to the saying of any Church not onely not of yours but so far as that Church teacheth according to the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ in the Scripture which is the rule of faith A. D. §. 10. Worthily therefore doth S. Paul call this Church columnam firmamentū veritatis the pillar and ground of truth Worthily also saith S. Austin Scripturarum à nobis tenetur veritas cum id facimus quod vniuersae placet Ecclesiae quam earundem Scripturarum commendat authoritas vt quoniam Scriptura sancta fallere non potest quisquis falli metuit huius obscuritate quaestionis Ecclesiam de illa consulat quam sine vlla ambiguitate Scriptura sancta demonstrat The truth of the Scriptures is holden of vs when we do that which pleaseth the vniuersall or whole Church the which is commended by the authoritie of the Scriptures themselues that because the holy Scripture cannot deceiue whosoeuer feareth to be deceiued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgement of the Church which without any ambiguitie the holy Scripture doth demonstrate by which words he sheweth plainly that the sentence of
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
time for all men know it erred in diuers though not fundamentall if we may gesse by the writings of the learned in those ages or that the Church hath or shall want the performance of Christs promise at any time for a moment But what is all this to the matter we haue in hand Well Let vs see yet what you say A. D. §. 2. Against these men I set downe this assertion The true Church of Christ which the forenamed testimonies of Scripture do commend was and is to continue without interruption till the worlds end This I prooue First out of the verie words of those promises which I cited out of Saint Matthew and Saint Iohn For how can Christ our Sauiour or his holy Spirit be with his Church in such sort as there is promised to wit till the worlds end and for euer and especially as is said in Saint Matthew Omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi All the daies euen to the end of the world vnlesse the Church also be all the daies vntill the end of the world For if the Church for any time daies monthes or years doe cease to be Christ cannot for these yeares moneths and daies be truly said to be with his Church sith he cannot be with that which is not and consequently he cannot be said to haue fulfilled his promise wherein he said he would be with his Church all the daies vntill the end of the world A. W. The men against whom you set downe this Assertion are of your owne making that you might haue against whom to shew your valour once it cannot concerne vs who acknowledge the continuance of Christs Church without interruption till the worlds end As long as these times shall run on saith Austin the Church of God that is the bodie of Christ shall not be wanting vpon earth This is the Church spoken of in as many of these testimonies as are not peculiar to the Apostles namely the elect from time to time not your Romish synagogue wherein many of the reprobate also are included and that as members of your congregation who cannot without dishonour of our Sauiour Christ be accounted parts of his glorious bodie The truth of your Assertion needeth no proofe and the weaknesse of your proofe is a disgrace to your Assertion Christ will be with his Church at all times whensoeuer there are any that beleeue in him not onely whilest the Apostles liue therefore there shall alwaies be some in the world without interruption that shall beleeue in him This is but a loose consequence I grant the conclusion or consequent that there shall be a Church alwaies but I denie that therefore there shall alwaies be one because our Sauiour promiseth to be with it whensoeuer it is Put case our Sauiour had thus spoken I will be with you in your persecution all the daies euen to the end of the world might a man reasonably conclude from hence that therfore the Church shall be alwaies persecuted without any interruption or ease one day from persecution Such is your consequence and as such insufficient to prooue your Assertion A. D. §. 3. Secondly I prooue the same out of an other promise or prophesie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church wherein he saith Portae inferninon praeualebunt aduersus eam the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For how was it true that the gates of hel shall not preuaile if they haue preuailed so much as vtterly to abolish the Church or at least to banish it quite out of the world for so long a time Granting therfore which euery Christiā must needs grant that the prophesies promises of our Sauiour are alwaies fulfilled and that they are vnfallibly true we may not doubt but that the church hath euer bene since Christ his time and shal neuer cease to be in the world A. W. This proofe is little or nothing better then the former thus you conclude If Christ haue promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against his Church then it must continue without interruption till the worlds end But Christ hath promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it Therefore it must continue without interruption till the worlds end I denie the consequence of your maior first because the Church in this place doth not signifie such a companie of men as you by that name vnderstand but the congregation of the elect who by true faith confesse as Peter did and being built vpon our Sauiour the rocke shal neuer be remoued and perish And this promise is made not onely to all ioyntly but to euery one seuerally as it was to Peter and all the rest of the Apostles If there be any saith Origen against whom the gates of hell shall preuaile such a one is neither the rocke vpon which Christ buildeth nor the Church which is built by Christ vpon the rocke Euerie one saith the same Origen that is a follower of Christ by imitation is a rocke or stone But he against whom the gates of hell preuaile is neither to be counted a rocke nor the Church nor part of the Church which Christ builds vpon the rocke Againe whosoeuer is Christs disciple saith the same author is a rocke but many are called and few chosen As if he should haue said that the Church against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile is euery one of the elect and that he against whom those gates do preuaile is none of the elect or church to which that promise of our Sauiour was made Theophylact though he expound the place of the Church somewhat generally yet hee doubteth not to adde that euery one of vs also is the church which is the house of God if therefore we be confirmed in the confession of Christ the gates of hell that is sinnes shall not preuaile against vs. The gates of hell saith your Glosse are sinnes threatnings flatterings heresies whereby they that are weake runne into destruction who are not to be thought to haue built the house of their profession of beleeuing soundly vpon the rocke but vpon the sand that is to follow Christ with a simple and true intent but to haue made a shew for some earthly respect For he that receiueth the faith of Christ with the inward loue of his heart easily ouercometh whatsoeuer outwardly befalleth him Lyra saith that the church here spoken of consisteth of those persons in whō there is true knowledge confessiō of the faith truth not of any men in respect of their power or dignity ecclesiasticall or ciuill because many Princes Popes and other inferiour Christians are found to haue made Apostasie from the faith Luke of Bruges though he will not haue this promise of victorie belong to euery particular member of the church yet he granteth that euery liuing member thereof stedfastly cleauing vnto it may conceiue good hope of triumphing
ouer all Satans forces I thinke saith Ierome the gates of hell are vices and sinnes or surely the doctrines of heretickes by which men being entised are led to hell Doth any of these writers expound this place of such a companie as you dreame of Nay doth not our Sauiour himself restraine it to the elect and yet apply it to euery one of them For who beside them is built vpon the rocke or which of them in his due time is not so built All that the Father giueth me shall come vnto me and him that commeth to me I cast not away And againe This is the Fathers will that sent me that of all which he hath giuen me I should lose nothing but should raise it vp againe at the last day Secondly the consequence of your maior is yet more weake because you misinterprete the text as if our Sauiour meant to promise a perpetual continuance of his Church vpon earth by saying that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For hereby it must needs be granted that the gates of hell do preuaile against all such Christians as by persecution or any violence are taken out of the world Yea Peter himselfe and his fellow Apostles to whom this promise was first made found not the true performance of it in their owne persons but were ouercome by the gates of hell Do you magnifie our Sauiours promises that make them faile so notoriously euen to the Apostles themselues The gates of hell saith Theophylact are temporall persecutors who endeuor to send Christians to hell Heretickes also are gates leading to hell The Church therefore hath preuailed against many heretickes and persecutors The gates of hell saith your Glosse shall not separate the Church from my loue and faith Persecutions of tyrants saith Lyra assaults and tentations of wicked spirits shall not preuaile by subuerting the Church from the true faith Brugensis speaketh yet more plainly The gates of hell shal not preuaile saith he so that the Church shal be ouerthrowne that is separated from Christ or fall away from saluation by Christ or faile of it The Apostles and other holy Martyrs and Christians were ouercome in regard of their continuance vpō earth but not separated frō Christ nay rather they are more nearly ioyned to him It is one thing to say the Church that is they that truly beleeue in Christ shall by no power of Satan and his instruments either inward or outward be seuered from Christ or faile of saluation by him another to affirme that there shall alwayes be some on earth that shall beleeue and make profession of the Gospell Bellarmine applies this text one while to the generall Councels approued by the Pope which as he saith by reason of this promise cannot erre either in beleeuing or in teaching another while to the vniuersall Church and to the sea of Rome which absurdly and falsly he maketh the rocke vpon which the vniuersal Church is built so that by the Church according to Bellarmine Rome or Peters seate as he calleth it must be meant first and principally from which at the second hand the vniuersall Church must haue her perpetuall stabilitie But what should I stand any longer vpon this place hauing shewed that the promise is not of the Churches continuance without interruption but of the certaintie of their saluation that beleeue truly in our Sauiour Christ and so being built vpon the rocke cannot be shaken downe or ouerthrowne by any storme In this sense I grant the minor our Sauiour hath made a promise that no one member of his shall perish though the gates of hell send out and employ all their forces against him He that confesseth and beleeueth with Saint Peter shall be saued with Saint Peter But I denie the minor according to the sense you make of it concerning the perpetuall continuance of a certaine companie without interruption or error and yet I beleeue the Catholicke Church and that at all times there are some true members thereof vpon earth chosen to life and iustified by faith in Christ A. D. §. 4. Thirdly I may confirme the same out of other Scriptures where the perpetuitie of the church is either affirmed or promised of which kind of testimonies being very many I wil onely rehearse some few Of the Church if we wil beleeue S. Austin his exposition it is said Deus fundauit eam in aeternum God hath established it for euer And of it signified by the name of the kingdome of Christ the Prophet Daniel saith Suscitabit Deus coeli regnum quod in aeternum non dissipabitur The God of heauen shal raise vp a kingdom which shal not be broken in peeces for euer As is also said in S. Luke Regni eius non erit finis there shall be no end of his kingdome A. W. These few are more then need for the proofe of that wherof no man doubteth but if they were twice as many their weight would be too small for the matter you vndertake to proue by them as it wil appeare by the weighing of them in the ballance of true reason That say you which God hath established for euer so that there shal be no end of it must alwayes continue without interruption till the worlds end But God hath so established the Church that there shal be no end of it Therefore the Church must alwayes continue without interruption till the worlds end That the Church shall continue in all times and ages as I haue often said we grant and maintaine that such a Church as you fancie to your selues either shall be alwayes or euer was in the world since the Apostles we vtterly denie Farther I say your proposition is false because the continuance of the church dependeth not vpon her being in the world but vpon her being ioyned to Christ And if the Church shal remaine euen after this world is ended and then especially flourish what folly is it to thinke it continueth not vnlesse it be vpon the earth May I not certainly conclude that it shall continue after this world because it is established for euer How then doe you gather hereupon that it ceaseth to be if it be not in this world at all times without interruption Was not this spoken of the Church of the Iewes also Is not the like affirmed of the ceremonies And yet neither of these hath continued nor did continue without interruption while they stood before the time of their abolishing That the Psalme was written either wholy or principally of Ierusalem and of the Church of the Iewes belonging thereunto both the course of it manifestly sheweth and he that considereth the expositions of it by Ierome and Austine and what ado they haue to fit the seuerall verses thereof to the Church of Christ will easily be perswaded But what Church meane they thinke you Such a companie of men as you talke of
is your purpose in this place to prooue that the Church is holy A labour that might well haue bene spared for who euer denied it or doubted of it But let me againe put you in minde that when you haue prooued the Church to be holy you haue got nothing because euerie qualitie of the Church is not by and by a marke whereby it may be knowne It may be proper to the Church so that it can neuer be found but in the Church and yet not be alwaies there to be found It may also be true alwaies and yet not be alwaies visible But let vs see your proofe The Temple of God is holy The Church is the Temple of God Therefore the Church is holy The holinesse you meane as you expound your selfe is true and inward sanctitie which you say is wrought by the Sacraments And this indeed is the holinesse which onely can make a man a Christian For Thomas truly saith He that is not annointed with the grace of the holy Ghost is not a Christian Hereupon before I answer to your Syllogisme I will make it manifest by your owne argument that holinesse is no good marke to know the Church by Euerie good marke of the Church must be easier to be knowne then the Church it selfe True inward sanctity is not easier to be known thē the Ch. it selfe Therefore true inward sanctitie is no good marke of the Church The Maior is yours in plaine words generally deliuered The second thing required in a good marke is that it be more apparent and easie to be knowne then the thing is The Minor is prooued by these words of yours in the same place The secret disposition of a mans heart is harder to be knowne then the man himselfe how then shall true inward sanctitie be easier to discerne then the men in whom it is If by Temple you vnderstand the whole company as you plainly auouch and by holinesse true inward sanctity I denie your Maior Because the whole companie makes not one person or subsistence wherein onely there is place for such habits or qualities True inward holinesse is a qualitie no where resident but in some speciall substance and therefore if the whole companie of the Church haue not a generall soule as Auerrois dreamed of the world it is vnpossible it should haue true inward holinesse It should seeme also you saw as much your selfe and therefore giue vs an other exposition of the place that the whole companie is to be termed holy In this sense you must conclude thus The Temple of God is to be termed holy The Church is the Temple of God Therefore the Church is to be termed holy But this prooueth not that the Church is holy Do you thinke that the Nicene Councell when it deliuered it as an article of faith that we are to beleeue One holy Church meant nothing but that the Church was to be termed holy Yes they meant to teach vs that the true Church is truly holy being purged from the guilt of sinne by the sacrifice of our Sauiour Iesus Christ and indued with true habituall righteousnesse by the spirit of sanctification It is a poore marke to know the Church by to tell vs it is a companie that is to be termed holy What then is the Apostles meaning when he saith the Temple of God is holy Many interpreters take this whole passage of the Apostle frō the beginning of the 16. verse to be a reproofe particularly of the incestuous person and generally of all vncleane liuers and they by Temple vnderstand seuerall Christians sanctified by the Spirit of God who dwelleth in them and maketh them holy Thus do Cyrill Irenaeus and Cyprian apply the place Other whose iudgement in this text I rather follow thinke that the Apostle in these verses continueth his former discourse concerning the ministerie of the word diuersly vsed by diuers teachers some building vpon the foundation gold siluer and pretious stones other laying on it timber hay or stubble A third kind destroying the foundation by false doctrine of whom the Apostle here speaketh threatning them destruction because they destroy the Temple of God The reason whereof one of them giues in these words The Temple of God is holy To defile that which is holy saith Catharin deserueth destruction euen among the heathen For if any man hurt the walles of the Citie which the heathen accounted holy he was to die for it Now if this law were executed for the prophaning of walles and temples made with hands how much more ought the destroying of Christians who by faith and loue haue receiued the Lord Iesus be so seuerely punished Euen so much more saith Lyra as spirituall things are to be preferred before corporall By the Temple of God then the Apostle meaneth the congregations or Churches of professed Christians such as that of Corinth was These he saith are holy that is either consecrated to the worship of God which is the professed end of Christian assemblies or truly holy in regard that they make profession and so in charitie are to be taken but where the contrary euidently appeareth of being iustified and sanctified by the death and resurrection of Iesus Christ You giue two other reasons of their being termed holy the one that the profession of religion of itselfe wholy tendeth to holinesse How can this be a good mark to know the true Church by when euery company wil say their doctrine hath the same end and he that will beleeue it of any company must know and be able to iudge of euery point they maintaine Your second is that the Sacraments worke in vs as instrumentall causes true and inward sanctitie I will not enter into the question about the Sacraments what or how they worke it is nothing to the purpose But to the point what hereticall Church will not or may not say the like whether truly or falsely it skils not because that will aske a new examination such as euerie one that must know the Church cannot make Therefore this marke of holinesse is not a good marke to know the true Church by being inward and claimed by all companies of Christians Not onely some but all the members of the true Church of Christ are inwardly and outwardly holy being purged by his bloud and spirit And this their holinesse is so manifest ordinarily that there need none of your counterfeit miracles for the countenancing thereof especially since God neuer tooke that course in his Church to approoue any mans holinesse by the gift of miracles the vse whereof is to confirme doctrine when need requireth neither can any man from miracles conclude that he which worketh them is inwardly truly sanctified Was not Iudas one of them to whom power was giuen euen ouer the diuels Yet was he a thiefe a traitor and a diuell Many wil say vnto me in that day saith our Sauiour Lord haue we not by
about these things wherein we are of one minde Let it be enough for me againe to put you in minde that this Catholicknesse can be no good marke to discerne the Church by from heretiks because it wanteth your secōd propertie of plainnesse and easinesse to be knowne yea there is a meere impossibilitie that any man should know that any heresie shall haue an end before the end of the world or that it shall not spread far and neare ouer the world yea it passeth the reach of ordinary men to know certainly that any heresie hath not bene since the beginning of the Gospell because this matter requireth some speciall knowledge of storie whereof most men are ignorant The Church in Saint Austins time by the blessing of God was so inlarged that it had possession of many parts of the world and in comparison of it heresies yea the Arian heresie was but in corners In this goodly estate continued it for the most part till as before I obserued Antichrist brake out and ouerthrew the very foundation of faith But if any man will so far presse Austins authoritie as to make vniuersalitie a certaine marke of the church how will he credit the holy Ghost affirming by Saint Paul that there must be a generall falling away and by Saint Iohn that the church must flie into the wildernesse and there lie hidden a long time The other testimonie out of Austin you translate falsly to make it serue your turne the better For Austin saith not that Heresies are not found in many nations but that euery seuerall heresie is not found in many nations where the Church is But admit there were some churches without any heresie for a time and neuer any heresie but where there is also a true church yet doth not Augustine say that euery man may easily discerne the true church from hereticall assemblies because it may fall out as it hath done that heresie as Arianisme shall be more generall then true Religion Let vs father grant that whatsoeuer hath vniuersally bin receiued in the Christian world especially at all times is true yet cannot this Catholicknesse be a good note of the church because if I shall make bold to repeate the same again it is hardly possible for any man to vnderstand what points haue bin so receiued But you forget your selfe very much for by this rule you appoint them that will iudge which is the church to enter into such a maze as they shall neuer get out of if they shall not acknowledge any church for true but that which holdeth all things that haue euer generally bene held in the Christian world But of Catholicknesse this may suffice A. D. §. 6. Lastly the true Church is also Apostolicke that is to say such as hath her foundation from the Apostles according to that saying of the Apostle S. Paul Non estis hospites aduenae sed estis ciues sanctorum domestici Dei superae dificati supra fundamentum Apostolorum Prophetarum ipso summo angulari lapide Christo Iesu You are not strangers and forreiners but you are citizens of the saints and the domesticals of God built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the highest corner stone This we may gather out of that which is already said For if the Apostles were they which were appointed by our Sauior to be vnder him the founders of his church which by their preaching began at Ierusalem and from thence by them and those that receiued authoritie from them tanquam vitis crescendo vbique diffusa est as S. Austin speaketh like a vine by growing was spred abroade euery where and being thus first planted and spred abroad was afterwards by the ministery of lawfully succeeding Pastors and Doctors continued without interruption till now and shall be also continued till the worlds end there is no doubt but that this companie descending thus lineally from the Apostles and depending of them as their lawfull progenitors and being built vpon them as after Christ himselfe vpon principall foundations may well be called Apostolicke that is to say such as deriue their pedegree from no other author or founder later then the Apostles themselues All this doth Tertullian briefly but pithily comprehend in this short sentence Apostoli apud vnamquamque ciuitatem Ecclesias condiderunt ab his autem ciuitatibus seu Ecclesijs ab Apostolis constitutis traducem fidei semina doctrinae caeterae exinde Ecclesiae mutuatae sunt quotidie mutuantur vt Ecclesiae fiāt ac per hoc ipsae Apostolicae deputabuntur vt soboles Apostolicarum Ecclesiarum The Apostles to wit either immediatly by themselues or by meanes of others founded Churches at euery citie from which cities or Churches being thus founded by the Apostles other Churches afterward did borrow and do daily borrow the ofspring of faith and the seeds of doctrine that they may be made Churches and by this meanes these also shall be accounted Apostolicke as being the issue of the Apostolicall Churches Contrariwise no conuenticle of heretickes can be Apostolicke by reason that heresie being an vpstart noueltie contrarie to the former receiued faith of the Church cannot haue any Apostle or Apostolick man for author and founder but is forced to acknowledge some other of whom as it receiued the first being so most commonly either the doctrine or the men that follow it or both receiue also their name as of Arius came Arianisme and the Arians of Montanus came the Montanists and Montanisme and there was neuer yet hereticke which could deriue the pedegree of his congregation by vninterrupted succession from the Apostles which maketh Tertullian to vrge them so earnestly saying Edant haeretici origines Ecclesiarum suarum euoluant ordinem Episcoporum ita per successiones decurrentes vt primus ille Episcopus aliquem ex Apostolicis viris qui tamen cum Apostolis perseuerauerit authorem habuerit antecessorem Let the heretickes shew the beginning of their Churches or as they had rather say of their congregations let them vnfold the order of their Bishops or superintendents so running downe by successions that the first of them shall haue for his author in doctrine and predecessors in place any Apostolicke man who did perseuere and did not forsake the Apostles Thus did Tertullian vrge them because he knew well that they could neuer make this proper note of the true Church to agree to their companie A. W. This last part of your discourse should proue the fourth point of your former assumption that to be Apostolicke is a propertie belonging onely to the true Church and not hard to be discerned in any companie wheresoeuer it is If all this were proued yet were your syllogisme nothing worth because I iustly excepted against the consequence of your proposition which remains stil without any confirmation But to let that passe how idle is this proof of yours wherein
the latter part of that you should proue is quite omittted that it is no hard matter for any simple man to discerne which Church is Apostolicke which is not If you make not this cleare you proue nothing and yet euery man may see that it is a matter of no small studie nor short time to examine what Churches were first founded by the Apostles and haue had an orderly succession without interruption from time to time yea when a man hath made the best search he can what hath he to rest himselfe vpon but the report of men who might deceiue and be deceiued And yet this ado euery poore soule must haue before he can tell to what Church he may ioyne himselfe for his spirituall instruction in matters concerning euerlasting life You will aske what course we take for a mans direction in this case Surely the very same which the Scriptures testify we ought to follow We propound out of the Scriptures the meanes of saluation we giue our people libertie to examine that we deliuer by the touchstone of truth the same Scriptures of God we desire not to haue any credit giuen to that we teach as a matter of faith but so far forth as we can proue it manifestly by the word of God Thus we begin with men thus we continue leauing the successe of our poore ministery to the blessing of Gods Spirit in the hearts of them that vouchsafe vs the hearing But for better direction in the triall of our doctrine wee giue this rule that true religion first respects the glory of God and then the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of them that professe it Whether course yours or ours be more reasonable and more agreeable to Scripture I leaue it to the consideration of al men whom it doth concerne and returne to the examining of your proofe whereof there are these two parts that the true Church is Apostolicke that no conuenticle of heretickes can be Apostolicke Of the former thus you dispute If euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles then euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles But euery true Church must haue such a foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had and she had her foundation from the Apostles Therefore euery true Church must haue her foundation from the Apostles I would make no question of any part of your Syllogisme if by foundation from the Apostles you vnderstood nothing but Apostolicall doctrine which is indeed the maine foundation of all true Churches but you afterward expound your meaning and acknowledge no foundation from the Apostles but by the ministery of such as can deriue their succession from the Apostles without any interruption In this sense therefore I denie your minor because the former part of it is false For euery true Church hath not nor need haue to make it a true Church such foundation as the Church of the Ephesians had Yea though we doubt not but that the Ephesiās were conuerted to the faith by some of the Apostles and perhaps by the Apostle Paul yet we doe not beleeue that the Apostle in the place alledged by you speakes of any such foundation but of the truth of doctrine taught by the Apostles This may appeare because the Apostle makes the Prophets their foundation as wel as the Apostles But certaine it is that neither the Prophets nor any by succession from them laid the foundation of the Gospell amongst the Ephesians He meanes saith Theodoret the Prophets of the old Testament not of the new lest you should cauill about the name Prophets Besides the foundation of the Apostles must be conceiued as our Sauiour Christ is the corner stone to the Ephesians not because he preached to them but for that they rested vpon him as a corner stone the doctrine of the Apostles being the foundation And if we will tie this to the persons that deliuer the doctrine then to be the foundation is so proper to the Apostles as that it cannot agree to any other man whatsoeuer how Apostolicke soeuer he may be imagined to be For this was their speciall honor aboue all other Christians Thus doe the best interpreters expound the place Vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is saith Ambrose vpon the new and old Testament For that which the Apostles preached the Prophets foretold As for the Prophets of the new Testament They saith Ambrose are for the ordering of the Church founded and not for the founding of it Vpon Christ saith your Glosse or vpon the doctrine of the Apostles So Lyra Vpon the doctrine of the new and old Testament With whom Lombard agreeth though he expound it also of Christ So doth Thomas Vpon their doctrine So doth Caietan vnderstand it that a man may wonder at your ignorance or boldnesse in going against the streame of your owne Doctors without any shew of reason for it Wherefore if your minor intend no more but that euery true Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles in respect of their doctrine no exception could be taken against it For other foundation no man can lay but Iesus Christ according to the preaching and prophesying of the Apostles and Prophets This foundation had the Church of Ephesus and in this must euery true Church agree with it But you apply this to I know not what dependance of succession which hath no kinde of warrant from that place of the Apostle To supply your want of proofe from the Scriptures that euery true Church must haue her foundation from some Apostle or some man who can fetch his pedegree without interruption from the Apostles you seeke to draw in Tertullian for a witnesse of your error Let vs heare his depositiō The Apostles saith Tertullian founded Churches in euery citie Here to helpe your selfe you adde this glosse To wit either immediatly by themselues or by meanes of other What reason is there that he that is a partie in the suite should haue the expoūding of the witnesses meaning Tertullian saith the Apostles founded Churches you tell vs he meanes they did so by themselues or by others How shall we know that you are so priuy to his meaning If you ground your exposition vpon those words in euery citie whereas the Apostles came not in diuers cities that were then in the world I pray remember that there were at that time many cities into which we are not sure that the Gospell had before Tertullians time bin receiued The learned man may speake in generall and yet with speciall relation to those places which were then knowne to be Churches founded by the Apostles as Ierusalem Antioch Rome Alexandria Ephesus c. He addes farther that From these Churches founded by the Apostles other Churches afterward had borrowed and in his time dayly
surely you must needs according to this first part of your reason haue condemned the innocent and iustified the wicked For the Apostles Church was not one because it had varied from some opinions formerly held by it which the other companie still retained As for your odious manner of propounding the point according to the varietie of times and persons it is but a froth of words and might in regard of the change haue bin charged in like sort vpon the Apostles As for the dissent of learned men one from another neither was the Church euer so happie as to be without it and you acknowledge it among your owne writers though not in matters of faith the contrary whereof I will shew when I come to that place But if by matters of faith you meant such points as are fundamental I could somewhat the rather hearken to you And yet what shall it hinder a Church from being one that the learned men of it make question of such maine matters as long as the Church is not tainted with their priuate errors Did the Churches of Corinth or Galatia cease to be true Churches because some among them and as it should seeme no small number in the former denied the resurrection of the flesh in the other ioyned the workes of the law with faith to iustification yet were both these fundamētall errors the continuance wherin without repentance must needs bring certaine damnation But your matters of faith are all points though neuer so friuolous or false that your Church hath determined by her lawlesse tyrannie whereas many matters of farre greater importance not so decreed are left free for euery man to erre in or to be ignorant of without any danger of damnation or breach of vnitie This last point as you say is the principall matter appertaining to vnitie that there be meanes in the Church to end controuersies But why or how should this be so principall when as the Church may agree in the same points of doctrine though priuate men dissent from each other Indeed to the procuring of an outward peace it is very requisite that particular men be not suffered to preach or write one against another But neither is this peace so much worth as that for it the Church should be corrupted with errors and the chiefe power for the remedying of this inconuenience is in the hands of the chiefe Magistrate whose dutie it is to prouide that his subiects may leade a quiet and a peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie Therefore neither doth this disagreement among the learned make the Church cease to be one though there be no meanes to end it which yet are not wanting in the true Churches Your minor also is false in euery part of it Variablenesse in points of faith according to the variety of times and persons is when in regard of these two the doctrine of the Church is altered Now who is so shamelesse as to charge vs with hauing altered and dayly altering our iudgements in respect of either of these What necessitie or occasion can varietie of time bring for the change of doctrine But for persons what sect profession church or companie in the world euer was or could be freer from depending on any mans person then we are who absolutely disclaime all mens authority ouer our faith Are not you they that charge vs with leauing the interpretation of Scripture and consequently the beliefe of euerie man to his owne priuate humour And yet you are not ashamed to accuse vs for variablenesse in our doctrine according to the varietie of persons If malice were not blind it were vnpossible you should slaunder vs with so manifest contrarieties You are the men whose faith dependeth vpon the persons of your Popes whom you follow blindfold whither soeuer any of them leadeth you We attribute to our teachers no impossibilitie of erring though we haue a reuerend opinion of their knowledge and faithfulnesse in regard whereof we do not lightly reiect any doctrine or exposition deliuered by them vnlesse it be apparently false Yet doe we not tie our selues to take whatsoeuer they teach as a matter of faith though we are readie to yeeld to any thing which is plainly prooued to vs out of the word of God how contrary soeuer it be to our former opinions For we know that men are subiect to error and that God doth not miraculously reueale all truth at once to any man but as it seemes good to his gracious wisedom peece by peece enlighteneth the vnderstanding of his seruants with the knowledge of his will and word according to their sinceritie in depending on him faith in calling vpon him diligence in searching the Scriptures the only sufficient meanes of instruction The second part of your slander is that our learned men so iarre in matters of faith that it is hard to find three in all points of one opinion Remember what you call matters of faith points of doctrine defined by the Church and forbeare blushing if you can when you reade this your accusation against vs. What other refutation shal I need to vse then the bare naming of the harmonie of our confessions wherein the most partial Reader of your side may discerne your shamelesse hyperbole that I may giue it a cleanlier terme then it deserueth To requite your kindnesse I challenge you to name me if you can any one of your schoole-men that hath not refuted some of his owne fellowes in some points or bene refuted by them I confesse there are many of them that I haue not read but I am so well acquainted with their courses and contradicting of one another that I may venture without aduenture to make this challenge Last of all your minor affirmes that our learned men haue no meanes to end their controuersies If you speake of the euent that our meanes are not sufficient de facto to make them that striue to agree in one opinion or to make all men to be of one mind I graunt that you say to be true but I adde withall that we may haue when we will as good meanes to this purpose as your Church hath For it is no more but to appoint some man to whose iudgement we will stand in all matters of controuersie What hereticall Church may not haue the same meanes of vnitie if it please But if you denie that de iure wee haue meanes sufficient for the ending of all questions I say your minor is vtterly false because we haue the Scriptures appointed and blessed to that end by God himselfe Now as the ministerie of the word is most sufficient for the begetting of faith and sauing of men though it haue not this excellent effect in all so the Scriptures are of absolute sufficiencie to cut off all controuersies howsoeuer men will not alwayes be ruled by them Your minor as we haue seene containes a grieuous accusation of vs in three points of no small importance To
ipsa sede Petri Apostoli cui pascendas oues suas Dominus commendauit vsque ad praesentem Episcopum successio Sacerdotum The succession of Priests from the very seate of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord commended his sheep to be fed vntill this present Bishop doth hold me in the Catholicke Church See the same S. Austin Epist 150. Optatus li. 2. cont Parmen S. Epiphani haeres 275. S. Cyprian lib. 1. epist 6. S. Athanas Orat. 2. cont Arianos who pronounceth them to be hereticks qui aliunde quà m à tota successione Cathedrae Ecclesiasticae originem fidei suae deducunt who deriue the beginning of their faith from any other ground then from the whole succession of Ecclesiasticall chaire And this saith he is eximium admirabile argumentum ad haereticam sectam explorandam an excellent and admirable argument wherby we may espie out and discerne an hereticall sect The which argument these Fathers would neuer haue vrged and extolled so much if they had not thought that this succession was an vndoubted good marke of the Church and that with this lawfull vninterrupted Apostolicall succession of Doctours and Pastors the true Apostolicke faith and doctrine was always conioyned The which to be conioyned we may easily proue out of S. Paul himselfe who saith Dedit Pastores Doctores ad consummationem sanctorum in opus ministerij in aedificationem corporis Christi donec occurramus omnes in vnitatem fidei agnitionis Filij Dei in virum perfectum in mensuram aetatis plenitudinis Christi Signifying that Christ our Sauiour hath appointed these outward functions of Pastors and Doctors in the Church to continue vntill the worlds end for the edification and perfection thereof and especially for this purpose vt non simus paruuli fluctuantes circumferamur omni vento doctrinae that we may not be litle ones wauering and caried about with euery wind of doctrine Wherefore that this ordinance and appointment of Pastors and Doctors in the Church made by our Sauiour Christ may not be frustrate of the effect intended by him we must needs say that he hath decreed so to assist and direct these Pastors in teaching the doctrine of faith that the people their flocke may alwayes by their meanes be preserued from wauering in the auncient faith and from being caried about with euery wind of new doctrine The which cannot be vnlesse with succession of Pastors be alwayes conioyned succession in true doctrine at least in such sort that all the Pastors cannot at any time vniuersally erre or faile to teach the auncient and Apostolicke faith For if they should thus vniuersally erre then all the people who do and ought like sheepe follow the voice of their Pastor should also generally erre and so the whole Church which according to S. Gregorie Nazianzen consisteth of sheepe and pastors should contrary to diuers promises of our Sauiour vniuersally erre So that we may be sure that the ordinary Pastors shal neuer be so forsaken of the promised Spirit of truth that all shall generally erre and teach errors in faith or that there shall not be at all times some sufficient companie of lawfull succeding Pastors adhering to the succession of S. Peter who was by our Sauiour appointed chiefe Pastor of whom we may learne the truth and by whom we may alwayes be confirmed and continued in the true auncient faith and preserued from being caried about with the wind of vpstart error The which being so it followeth that the true Apostolicke doctrine is inseperably conioyned with the succession of lawfull Pastors especially of the Apostolick sea of Rome Wherefore we may against all heretickes of our time as the ancient fathers did against heretickes of their time vrge this argument of succession especially of the Apostolicall succession of the Bishops of Rome We may say to them as S. Augustine saith to the Donatists Numerate sacerdotes ab ipsa sede Petri in illo ordine Patrum quis cui successit videte Number the Priests from the seate it selfe of Peter and in that order or row of Fathers see which succeeded which We may say with Irenaeus Hac ordinatione successione Episcoporum traditio Apostolorum ad nos peruenit est plenissima ostensio vnam eandem fidem esse quae ab Apostolis vsque nunc confirmata est By this orderly succession of Bishops the tradition of the Apostles hath come vnto vs and it is a most full demonstration that the faith which from the Apostles is confirmed euen vntill now is one and the same We may tell them with Tertullian Nos communicamus cum Ecclesijs Apostolicis quod nulla aduersa doctrina facit hoc est testimonium veritatis We do communicate with the Apostolick Churches which no contrary doctrine doth and this is a testimony of the truth A. W. That Apostolicknesse which is a marke of the true Church is as I shewed Chap. 15. an agreement and sucession in doctrine with and to the Apostles not as you would haue it a personall descent from them And therfore your reason against our Churches is naught Euery Apostolicke Church say you can deriue the pedegree of their preachers lineally without interruption from the Apostles The Protestant Churches cannot so deriue their pedegree Therefore the Protestant Churches are not Apostolicke Your maior is euidently false because otherwise some church professing the true faith and not keeping record of the succession of their teachers might be held not to be Apostolicall But Tertullian affirmeth the contrary directly that those Churches which agree with the Apostles in faith though they can alledge no Apostle or Apostolicke man for their first founder yet are neuer the lesse to be counted Apostolicall because of their consent in doctrine And indeed it is both impious and absurd to denie any Church to be Apostolicall that holdeth that faith by the preaching whereof the Apostles planted Churches Your minor also is vntrue because it is wel known that if you haue any such succession amongst you we haue it too For Luther Caluin and some other of our Diuines were ordered by bishops of your church Concerning Luther what reasonable mā can be so absurd as to think that Luther wold make any mā beleeue that the Gospel was first preached by himself whereas he continually appeals for the proof of his doctrine to the writings of the Prophets and the Apostles But Luther might truly say that he was the first which had in those times published Christ especially in the chiefe point of the Gospell which is iustification by faith in Christ And in this respect it is an honor to Luther to haue bin a son without a father and a disciple without a master and no more glory to your Popish Bishops and Priests to haue had so long a succession in error and heresie then for the Arians to haue bene able to reckon vp
may for all the priuiledge of succession doubtles succession doth not by the nature of it free a man from erring But they cannot all vniuersally erre What is that to purpose vnlesse this impossibilitie of erring proceed from succession Let vs draw your reason into forme that we may the better see the force or weaknesse of it If our Sauiour haue appointed a succession of Pastors that the Church may not be caried away with euery blast of doctrine then succession and truth go together But our Sauiour hath appointed Pastors to that purpose Therefore succession and truth go together Now the weaknesse of your reason easily bewrayes it selfe the consequence of your maior is so feeble Shall I shew it you euidently in a like matter If God appointed Dauid and his successors to rule his people according to his wil and word that they might truly serue him then whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God But God did appoint Dauid and his successors to that end Therefore whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God I shall not neede to make any further answer to your maior vnlesse perhaps I may bring the like reason from Gods appointing a succession of Priests and Leuites in the Church of the Iewes to the very same end that the people might know and do his will which intent of his notwithstanding was often made voyde both by Priests and people Yet do not we say that the world hath at any time bene without true Pastors and their flockes in some one place or other in a greater or lesse number who haue taught and beleeued the true faith of Iesus Christ in all points fundamentall without distinct beleefe whereof no man can be saued But we denie that either all or any Pastor hath this priuiledge because of his succession yea we affirme that a Christian congregation where the ordinarie meanes cannot be had may chuse and authorize any man able and fit to teach for their Minister and the truth of God may be in such companies preserued without any plea of not erring by reason of succession established by vertue of our Sauiours appointment To that of Nazianzen I answered before he speaketh not of the vniuersall Church as you falsly auouch but of seuerall congregations as his very words shew Order saith he hath decreed in Churches not in the vniuersall Church that the flocke and the Pastor should be diuers the flocke one thing the Pastor another or that some should be the flocke othersome the shepheards You may say what you will and be neuer a whit the nearer if you bring no better proofe then yet you haue done Saint Augustine biddeth the Donatists number the Priests and see who haue succeeded one another in the Bishopricke of Rome What conclude you from thence That the Church of Rome was at that time Apostolicke in regard of personall succession Who denieth it But it followeth not hereupon either that it is still in that sort Apostolicke about which we will not striue or which is the principall matter that it hath therefore such Apostolicknesse as is required to make a true Church namely truth of doctrine which must needs be meant by Augustine in the words that immediatly follow That is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not For it is more then absurd to make personall succession the rocke on which the Church is builded and against which hell gates cannot preuaile It was a likely argument against the Donatists that in so long a succession there had bene neuer a Donatist which Saint Augustine himselfe in another place concludeth after he hath reckoned vp all the Romane Bishops from Linus to Anastasius then liuing In the ranke of this succession saith Augustine there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist This testimonie of Irenaeus was neuer of your owne reading in him as the corrupt alledging of it perswadeth me I will set it downe as it is in the author himselfe By this ordination and succession saith Irenaeus the tradition of the Apostles hath come to vs And this is a most full demonstration that it is one and the same quickning faith which hath bene preserued and truly taught in the Church from the Apostles till now What one word or letter is there in this sentence to prooue that your Church of Rome at this day is Apostolicke or that bare personall succession is enough to make a Church Apostolicke Rome in Irenaeus time was an Apostolicall Church because it had preserued and truly taught successiuely Bishop after Bishop the doctrine which was deliuered by the Apostles Is it therefore Apostolicke now when it hath ouerthrowne the verie foundation of the Apostles doctrine I maruell what Apostolicke Churches they are with which you communicate whereas you say that there is no Church that hath succession from the Apostles but yours Your Monks of Burdeaux draw the vniuersall Church to the communion of the Romish Church It was indeed a testimonie of the truth to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches in Tertullians time while the truth was for the substance of it preserued amongst them But let vs apply this to our purpose what would you prooue by it that the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Here is no mention nor thought of your Church in particular But Tertullian saith it is a testimonie of truth for a man to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches It was then a testimonie but now those Churches are decayed or if some of them remaine amongst the Grecians wil you grant that all they hold is true How will you prooue that Tertullians generall speech belongeth more to your Church then to those of the Greeks Tertullian telleth you afterward that contrarietie to the Apostles doctrine may conuince Churches not to be Apostolicke though they alledge succession from the Apostles But his opinion may sufficiently appeare by that which hath bene formerly alledged out of him and the truth of this whole question by your discourse and my answer to it A. D. CHAP. XVII The Conclusion of the whole discourse A. W. The conclusion of your whole discourse as your selfe expound it in your preface is this that the faith which the authoritie of the Romane Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith But this Chapter is such as that you might rather terme it a recapitulation then a conclusion of your discourse For the greatest part of it by farre is spent in a needlesse repetition of that which was before deliuered and that which should be indeed your conclusion is scarce signified in it A. D. §. 1. Now to make an end considering all this which I haue said and prooued to wit that there is but one infallible entire faith the which is necessarie to saluation to all sorts of men the which faith euerie one must learne by some knowne
this possibilitie tooke effect in me I may thanke my selfe more then God so that by this doctrine the glorie of euerie particular mans saluation is more due to the partie saued then to God the Sauiour Now on the contrarie side if that we teach be true the losse falles on mans part and not vpon Gods Is any man drawne out of the Iawes of hell and damnation The whole glorie redounds to God It was he that prouided meanes of saluation it was he that gaue me in particular knowledge of that meanes It was he that when I was as vntoward and vnwilling to be saued as the most damned reprobate wrought me to beleeue can I euer be vnmindfull or vnthankfull by inclining my heart to like and accept of his grace and faith in Christ But in the meane while I loose the commendation and the glory of vsing the grace of God well by my free-will O Adam Adam earth and ashes how fast doth that pride of nature whereby thou wast destroyed in thy selfe though in thee it were not naturall cleaue to euerie one of thy posteritie We had rather be thought able to gouerne our selues then be gouerned by God It is more pleasing to vs to hazard our saluation vpon the nice choise of our owne free-will then to be assured of it by the mercie of God working in vs this choise to will O that as we are all partakers of Adams pride so we might also partake with his repentance and faith Would Adam trow ye if it might be put to his choise againe venture vpon his owne free-will though he were as pure as euer he was rather then rest secure vpon Gods almightie and most certaine protection No no blessed soule he knoweth by wofull experience though by Gods vnspeakable goodnesse to his and our greater glorie that he and he only is out of danger who resignes himselfe into Gods hands to be disposed of at his gracious pleasure Why refuse we to be like to Adam in this Will we follow him in that onely of which onely he is ashamed Is it not more glorie to arise with him then to haue fallē with him O why do we euery day renew the memorie of his fault by committing the like Doth the brightnesse of the truth in these points dazle your eies Me thinks I see many of you offering to presse forward as it were to take the kingdome of heauen the doctrine of the Gospell by violence why recoile you Why quaile you on a sodaine The bare name of the Church not onely stayeth you but beateth you backward The Romish Church cannot erre VVho telleth you so Surely they that can erre your Priests and Iesuits Giue me leaue I pray you to question with you a little and for a minute of an hower be content to make vse of that reason and knowledge which God hath giuen you without forestalling your iudgements by preiudice of the authoritie of the Church Doth it not appeare to you by the light of naturall reason that the maine end of all religion is the glorie of God Do not your owne consciences testifie in the simplicitie of your hearts that it maketh more for the glorie of God that men should be beholding to his Maiestie for their saluation then that they should procure it to themselues Is it not also apparent to you in the secret of your owne soules that our doctrine by beating downe the pride of mans free-will aduanceth the glorie of Gods mercie and yours by hoysing vp the conceit of mans good choise presseth downe the estimation of Gods vnspeakable goodnesse And shall an idle sound weigh more with you then sound reason Consider I beseech you what weake grounds you build this opinion of the Church vpon I will point at that which in my answer I haue handled Can you in any sort compare the opinion of the Churches authoritie with the euidence of those matters wherewith before I pressed you Is it as cleere that there are certaine men whom I must beleeue whatsoeuer they teach as it is that I must seeke the aduancing of Gods glory more then of mine owne pride Are you as sure that these Priests and Iesuits which are your teachers be sent by the true Church and deliuer nothing but the doctrine of the true Chruch as you are that they who perswade you to rest wholy vpon God and not at all vpon your selues shew you the right way to procure Gods glory and your owne saluation Tush say you all is nothing vnlesse I beleeue it vpon the credit of the Church Alaste how did the first Christians who neuer thought on the authoritie of the Church when they heard and beleeued the Apostles doctrine Looke ouer all the Historie of the Actes peruse the Sermons of Peter and Paule and tell me whether you finde that euer they pleaded the authoritie of the Church to procure beleefe of their doctrine After men are conuerted the authoritie of the Church hath her due place and must beare sway in matters in different but for the auowing of truth her bare word is neuer of sufficient importance It was the doctrine of the Apostles that wrought vpon the hearts of men by the cleare euidence of it through the power of the Spirit wherewith it was accompanied What that doctrine was where should we learne but in the scriptures wherein they haue written what they preached These you say giue such authoritie to the Church This were somewhat if you made not their authoritie in respect of vs to depend vpon the Church The scriptures say your Doctors haue in themselues authoritie as being from God but they are not of authoritie to vs but onely by the authoritie of the Church I perceiue you are ashamed of these absurdities The Church must be beleeued vpon her word Why so The Scripture saith so How shall I know that these bookes are scripture The Church saith so The Church and the scripture prooue each other by their mutuall testimonie they giue each of other I beleeue the Church because the scripture biddeth me I beleeue the scripture because the Church biddeth me If these things seeme to be absurd as indeed they are most absurd blinde not your selues any longer with such mists of errour but come out of them to the cleare light of the scriptures reade them diligently meditate in them carefully call vpon God for his grace earnestly resigne your selues and your free-will to him sincerelie and the Lord that is most readie to blesse them that vse the meanes of knowledge and faith in humilitie and singlenesse of heart will assuredly enlighten your vnderstanding and incline your affections that you shall discerne like of and embrace the true doctrine of Iustification by faith in Iesus Christ and shall renounce your owne righteousnesse and free-will to the glorie of his grace and the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of your bodies and soules through the same his sonne to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost be all
Ambrose to enquire after the faith of the Church and that especially in which Church if Christ be a dweller it is doubtlesse to be made choise of But if the people be vnfaithful if an heretical teacher deforme the dwelling the communion of heretickes is to be auoided the congregation must be shunned And a little after If there be any Church that refuseth the faith and holds not the foundation of the Apostles preaching it is to be left lest it taint vs with some spot of vnbeliefe or vnfaithfulnesse Neither will it serue the turne that you referre vs to that which is generally holden by the Church for both the generall faith depends vpon the particular beliefe of the Church or Pope of Rome and is not to be taken for truth because it is generally receiued but because it agrees with the Romane faith as we learned before of your Monkes of Bourdeaux who make the Catholique Church to haue communion with the Church of Rome as the fountaine of truth and of greater authoritie in their iudgement then the Catholicke Church But let vs admit that you desire of beleeuing whatsoeuer is generally holden by the Church I am half afraid this conceit be it neuer so strong wil not procure the quietnes you promise vs. The causes of my feare are these two First I may doubt of such a point as is not yet determined by the Church for example I make question of the Popes authority aboue Councels or theirs aboue him How shall I most certainly be instructed in the truth of this question Enquire say you and find what is generally holden by the Church What if the Doctors of your Church cannot agree about this point That they cannot it appeares by your owne doubting where you make it questionable whether the Pope alone or the Pope with a general Councell be free from error And Bellarmine is faine to take a great deale of paines in answering the arguments of diuers Papists some of them equall to himselfe for learning iudgement and authoritie who make the Pope subiect to generall Councels But of this in due place Say it were generally agreed on Could I thereby be most certainly instructed what is truth in this point May not all saue the Pope be deceiued and perhaps he to without the aduice and assent of a general Councell at least if he haue not in his consistory vpon good deliberation resolued of the matter What shall it auaile me then to know that generally it is thought the Pope is aboue any Councell Supposing this point were generally held to be true though indeed as I said before it is denyed both by priuate men by 2. councels that of Basil the other of Constance which deposed two Popes Iohn the three and twentieth and Benedict the thirteenth And Bellarmine saith that to this day it remaines in question euen among the Catholikes Well put case all men thought as Bellarmine and all such Popish parasites would haue it what were I the nearer as long as there can be no certainty of truth in your opinion where nothing is iudicially determined by a Pope Coūcell The second resō of my doubt is that I know not how to find out either easily as you say euery man may or certainly though with some paines what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in al particular points wherof I doubt Shall I looke into the confessions of seuerall Churches Where are they to be found Shall I trauail into euery particular country to learne what they hold of this or that poynt What assurance can I get hereby but from some speciall men And it is a venture but they will not all agree in euery point What remaines Forsooth that which is all in all I must beleeue Watsō or Clarke or Blackwel the archpriest or if al these will not content me Gerrard Tesmond Hall or without all doubting Garnet the superior of the Iesuites who questionlesse is as void of error as the Pope himselfe Haue I not trow you a sound foundation to build my faith vpon when I haue the word of these equiuocating traitours Priests and Iesuits And yet this is the most I can haue in this case if I be a man vnlearned especially vnable to reade Is it possible any man should be so senslesse as to hazzard his euerlasting saluation vpon such an vncertainty to beleeue he knowes not what because a Priest or a Iesuit tels him that the Church generally doth so beleeue But what if it fall out as it may do that the Priests perswade him the Church holds one thing and the Iesuites affirme it maintaines the contrary how shall a poore soule either settle his iudgement or quiet his conscience Quid sequar aut quem Were it not a directer and certainer course to hold nothing for truth in religion but that which is proued to vs by plaine testimonies of Scripture or certaine consequence of reason drawne from principles euidently exprest or apparētly contained in the knowne word of God The difficulties of translation and interpretation shal be handled in their places which also as I shewed ere while accompany al your writings of priuate men Popes or Councels Now then if their be many particular points of cōtrouersies whereof I may doubt which are not resolued of by any iudgement of the Church nor agreed vpon by the learned of your owne side if I cannot certainly know what is generally held for truth by the Church but as I giue credit to the report of a Priest or Iesuit whom I know to be partiall in the matter because he is one of the Popes vassals subiect to erre because he is a priuate man likely enough to lye because he maintaines equiuocation what madnesse were it for me to forbeare searching and studying of the Scriptures where I am sure the truth of God is to be found and to lose my time and labour in seeking what the Church generally holds and that of those men who perhaps vnderstand not what is held but as they haue bene informed by others who may themselues haue mistaken the true meaning of the Church in that it holds A. D. §. 10. Of which points also If they be desirous they may haue sufficient authority and reason yeelded by the learned of the same Church though they should not so desire reason to be yeelded that without reason be giuen they would not beleeue at all or as grounding their faith vpon the reason giuen sith Christian beliefe ought onely to be grounded vpon the authoritie of God speaking by the mouth of the Church who ought to be beleeued in all matters without giuing any reason A. W. There is no sufficient authoritie for a man to ground his faith vpon but the truth of God reuealed Whatsoeuer is taught without that authoritie is as easily contēned as alleadged Therfore Iustine wils him that would be setled in
the truth to flie to the Scriptures And Tertullian reiects that which is brought if it be not in the Scriptures Origen saith Christ is no where to be sought but in the mountaines of the law and the Prophets Yea Ierome makes the Scriptures the bounds of the church beyond which she may not go Are you able to shew this authority in all particuler points of Controuersie whereof a man may doubt Are you not faine in many particulars to deny the sufficiency of the Scriptures and to run a madding after traditions What talke you then of shewing sufficient authority The bestauthority you can alleadge for many matters is the Popes will who cannot erre as you ridiculously imagine And this authoritie is all the reason you haue in diuers points except such stuffe as Durād brings in his Rationale diuinorum officiorum wherof many of your own men are ashamed I had thought your Friers vow of obedience to their superiours or at least the Iesuits special vow of blind fold obedience head bene the height of all perfection in this life but I perceiue now that there is a greater opinion of holinesse in these vowes then there is cause why For you tye the obedience of euery Christian in such sort to the authoritie of the Church and indeed of his particular pastor yea of euery Priest or Iesuite that comes licenced by Blackwell or some new Garnet that be must beleeue without enquiring any reasō whatsoeuer such a fellow shall deliuer to him for truth This is the obedience one of your Cardinals speakes of Obedience without reason saith Cusan is full and perfit obedience namely when a man yeelds obedience without requiring any reason as a beast horse or other obeies his maister So doth your Popish Clergie vse the people as men do their Asses make them beare and do what they list yea euen to the attempting of most horrible and incredible treasons against their Soueraigne and countrey I will not now dispute what agreement there is betwixt faith and reason nor whether of them is the former nor in what case a man may require reason onely that no man may conceiue amisse of our doctrine concerning our demanding of proofe for that we are enioyned to beleeue he is to vnderstand that we aske no farther proofe but to be perswaded that the point deliuered to vs is warranted by Scripture Let it be neuer so much in seeming contrary to reason if it be agreeable to Scripture we hold our selues bound in conscience to take it for truth though we be no way able to answer such reasons as we know are brought against it Neither yet do we rest satisfied as soone as some place of Scripture is alledged in a doubtfull matter but here indeed we hearken after reason Yet not to prooue that true which we find affirmed in Scripture but to make vs perceiue that such and such is the meaning of the Scripture Whatsoeuer the Scripture saith we acknowledge to be absolutely true so farre as it is deliuered for true by the holy Ghost But what the sense of the Scripture is we thinke it must be prooued by the true vse of reason according to the certain principles of diuinitie and such helps as obseruation of circūstances vnderstanding of the tongs conference of like places logical discourse with such other helps reasonably affoord vs. But why should you find fault with demanding reason or not be most willing ready to ioyne it to your authority since as Cusan saith faith is not abased by reason but exalted euen as water in a vessell supports and lifts vp oyle As for your proofe that therfore we may not demand a reason nor so much as enquire whether the points that are taught vs be sutable to the Scripture or no because Christian beliefe must onely be grounded vpon the authority of God speaking by the mouth of the Church we say that you auouch that which is not true For Christian faith must be grounded vpon the authoritie of God speaking by the pens of his Apostles and Prophets in the Scripture not vpon the authoritie of any company of men liuing from time to time in the world The Church you dreame of will I doubt not in another part of my answer be shewed to be nothing but a fancy and a gay word to deceiue the simple when as by it you meane no more but your clergie or perhaps your Bb. onely assembled in a Councell or the Pope himselfe alone who can with no more reason be called the Church then the head may be tearmed the body or the whole man if I should grant you that he is the head which is both false and absurd The Lord vseth not the authoritie of men to enioyne what they list for a matter of faith but their ministery to beget faith by declaring what he hath reuealed in the Scripture through euidence of truth and power of exhortation testified and made effectuall by the mightie grace of the holy Ghost in the hearts of them that shall be saued A. D. §. 11 The which briefe and compendious resolution of faith whosoeuer will as euery one may securely and as in the discourse following shall be declared must necessarily embrace beside the ease he shall also reape this commoditie that cutting off all occasions of needlesse and fruitlesse doubts questions and disputes concerning matters of faith wherin vnsettled minds spend their time and spirit he shall haue good leisure and better liking then ordinarily such vnquiet mindes can haue to employ his endeuours more fruitfully otherwayes to wit in building vpon the firme foundation of stedfast faith the gold and pretious stones of Gods loue and other vertues in practise whereof consisteth that good life which maketh a man become the liuing temple of almightie God the which temple Gods spirit will not onely visite with holy inspirations and blessings oftentimes in this life but he wil also inhabite and dwell continually in it both by grace here and by glory in the other most happy and euerlasting life A. W. The securitie that ariseth from resting vpon the authoritie of the Church is freenesse not from danger but frō care This latter I confesse will easily be wrought by this perswasion in the heart of a carelesse worldling or a man superstitiously ignorant if he can be senslesly obstinate inough in keeping his eyes and eares from seeing and hearing the truth of God in the Scripture for to such men God sends strong delusions to beleeue lyes that they may be damned which haue not receiued the loue of the truth that they might be saued But alas what shall this ease aduantage them but onely that they may go laughing to destruction as a foole doth to the stocks and whip What necessitie can there then be of embracing such a dāgerous resolution Besides the ease you tell vs now of another commodity that may be reapt by embracing that
saued that doth not certainly beleeue that there is no name vnder heauen by which he may be saued but the name of Iesus and that in him there is saluation yet may a man attaine to saluation that is not resolued of many points which are determined by the Church that is by any company of men whatsoeuer Secondly faith is necessary to saluation because no man can be saued that doth not beleeue in Iesus Christ that is that doth not wholy renounce himselfe and rest vpon Iesus Christ to be iustified by his obedience and sacrifice But the Lord hath not so tied his owne hands that he cannot worke both these in the heart of whō he wil without some man to tell him by word of mouth that he must thus beleeue The proofe you bring out of the Apostle is vtterly false both for the translation and application The word vsed by the Apostle is no where to be found either in the passiue or middle voyce as it must needs be if it should signifie shall not be knowne but is meerly actiue the first present tense of the Imperatiue moode or as Ramus cals it the first future infect and is as much in English as let him be ignorant so do the learned of your owne side translate it Vatablus Pagninus Caietan Salmero so do they expoūd it as if he should say quoth Vatablus If any man will not know these things and will be ignorant let him be ignorant at his owne peril I will not striue saith Cardinal Caietan with thē that know not these to be the Lords cōmandemēts but if any man be ignorāt let him be ignorāt The same sense giue Chrysostom Theophylact and Oecumenius As if the Apostle by a kind of ironicall concession should as it were leaue euery man to himself to think and do in those matters as should please him And therefore Chrysostome expounds it by that If any man list to be contentious we haue no such custom nor the Churches of God As if he should say let him that will refuse to be ruled by me in these cases it is enough for vs that the Churches of God and we Apostles haue no such custome It is further to be obserued that the Apostle speaks not of such points as by their being vnknown might endanger a mans saluatiō but of matters of lesse momēt cōcerning the orderly and decent cariage of things in the publick congregation This Chrysostome notes saying that the Apostle doth not vse thus kind of reproofe euery where but when the faults are not great But it is an exceeding great fault for a man not to acknowledge the truth of those points without beleefe whereof he cannot be saued Therefore in Chrysostome his iudgement the Apostle speaks not in that place of the want of such a faith as is so necessary a means to saluation as that without it a man cannot attaine thereunto A. D. CHAP. II. That this faith necessary to saluation is but one A. W. If the plainnesse pretended in the title of this booke had bene truly intended and performed we should not haue had the contents of this chapter so obscurely deliuered This faith necessarie to saluation is but one VVhat should a man make of these words An ordinarie Reader would thinke you meant that there is but one kinde of faith necessarie to saluation how easie had it bene for you to haue said so plainely to the capacitie of the simplest But it is a humor in men commonly to wonder at the depth of that they vnderstand not and these great schollers may not abase themselues to speake like vs of the meaner sort and yet a wise Philosopher said That a man should thinke as the wise doe but speake as the people doe But we must remember that in poperie there is most deuotion where there is least vnderstanding Well let vs take the words as they are once his meaning is as himselfe afterwards expresseth it that the beleefe of one man differeth not from the beleefe of another and that euerie faithfull man beleeueth euerie point for one and the same reason A. D. §. 1. This faith which I haue shewed to be absolutely necessarie to saluation is but One onely This is plainly prooued out of Saint Paul who saith Vnus Dominus vna fides vnum baptisma signifying that like as there is but one Lord and one Baptisme so there is but One faith A. W. Faith as I shewed before is taken sometimes for the habit vertue gift grace qualitie call it what you will whereby we haue power to beleeue sometimes for the points that are to be beleeued Here the question is of the former as any man would gather both by the title and by some of the proofes The first whereof is a place of Scripture There is one Lord one faith one baptisme of which I say first as of the whole Chapter that it might well haue bene spared considering that we acknowledge the truth of the matter in the same sense in which himselfe propoūds it Secondly I think it had bin a point of good iudgement to haue forborne the allegation of a text so insufficient for the purpose for the Apostle hath no meaning to shew by those words one faith that one mans beliefe taking faith for the inward quality differeth not from another mans but that all the beleeuing Ephesians and so all true Christians professe one and the same religion as they worship the same Lord and receiue the same baptisme and therefore ought to agree in peace one with another and not to make the gifts of God diuersly bestowed vpon diuers men an occasion of schisme and diuision This might you haue learned of Alphonsus Salmero a Iesuite who brings this place to proue that nownes that signifie qualities or habits are taken also for the obiects to which they appertaine as faith signifieth saith he the articles which are beleeued by faith according to that of Paul There is one faith The like hath Bellarmine By the name of faith saith he speaking of this place the obiect of faith seemes to be noted out So that the sense is we all beleeue the same thing as we haue bene all baptized after the same manner One faith saith Catharin because we beleeue one thing And this interpretation is acknowledged for good by Lombard Thomas and Caietane though they allow of the other also which notwithstanding I am the bolder to refuse because the places you bring out of the fathers agree better to the former exposition A. D. §. 2. The same is confirmed with the authoritie of the ancient Fathers Nisi vna est saith S. Leo Fides non est dicente Apostolo Vnus Dominus vna fides vnum baptisma Vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one Baptisme A. W. Faith that is sound saith
Leo faith that is true is a strong bulwarke to which faith nothing may be added by any man from which nothing may be taken because vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one baptisme Is it not euident that he speakes of the points of faith that are to be beleeued For to them may a man adde I speake of power not of lawfulnesse from them may he take wheras the qualitie of faith seated in the soule is free from all such danger The learned father had found by experience that hereticks from time to time tooke vpon them to diminish and augment the faith of the Church that is the articles of religion and therefore denieth them to haue any faith that hold not firmly and onely the truth of doctrine according to the faith of the Church agreeable to Scripture A. D. §. 3. Omni studio saith S. Hierome Laborandum est primùm ocurrere in fidei vnitatem We must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith A. W. Ieroms testimonie wherein either the printer or you reade vnitatem for vnitate which is also the word in the text is to the same purpose that Leos was There are saith Ierome many winds of doctrine and by their blast when the waues are raised men are caried hither and thither in an vncertaine course and with diuers errors then follow the words you alledge Therefore we must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith then in the same vnitie to haue the knowledge of the sonne of God Which last point is added because of Sabellius who denied the distinction of the persons and against whom Ierome speaketh professedly in that chapter as also against Arius Macedonius and Eunomius about the holy Ghost and our Sauiour Christ A. D. §. 4. Hanc fidem saith Irenaeus ecclesia in vniuersum mundum disseminata diligenter custodit quasi vnam domum inhabitans similiter credit ijs quasi vnam animam habens vnum cor consonanter haec praedicat docet cradit quasi vnum possidens os Nam quamuis in mundo dissimiles sint loquelae tamen virtus traditionis vna eadem est This faith the Church spread ouer the whole world doth diligently keepe as dwelling in one house and doth belieue in one like manner those things to wit which are proposed for points of faith as hauing one soule and one heart and doth preach and teach and deliuer by tradition those things after one vniforme manner as possessing one mouth For although there be diuers and different languages in the world yet the vertue of tradition is One and the same Thus saith this Father By whose words we may vnderstand not onely that there is but one faith but also how it is said to be one which might seeme not to be one considering there are so many points or articles which we beleeue by our faith and so many seuerall men who haue in them this faith yet One saith this Father it is because the whole Church doth beleeue those points in one like manner That is to say because the beliefe of one man is in all points like and nothing different from the beliefe of another or because euery faithfull man beleeueth euery point or article for one and the like cause or for mall reason to wit because God hath reuealed it and deliuered it to vs by his Catholicke Church to be beleeued For which reason euery one should beleeue whatsoeuer he beleeueth as a point of Christian faith A. W. Irenaeus as the two former speaketh of the articles of religion many wherof he had recited in the next chapter before whereupon he infers the words you set downe The Church saith he hauing receiued this doctrine or preaching of this faith though it be spread ouer the whole world keepes it diligently c. And this your selfe acknowledge in these words To wit which are proposed for points of faith whereby you expound that which Irenaeus said The Church beleeues those things which is all one with his former words in sense This faith the Church holds So doth Feuardentius one of your learnedst Fryers vnderstand Irenaeus telling vs that he sets the consent of all Churches as a brasen wall that cannot be ouerthrowne against hereticks Of the same things saith Feuardentius they thinke beleeue write and teach the same By this place it is manifest that you take faith as it is a qualitie because you distinguish the points we beleeue from our faith by which we beleeue and so speaking of faith in that sense neuer a one of your proofes is either plaine or certaine But let vs see how you interprete Irenaeus He saith The whole Church doth beleeue alike meaning that all beleeue the same things not that the habit by which they beleeue is of like force like strength in euery particular Church or man which neither belongs to his purpose nor is true The intention or inward strength euen of the Catholick faith may be greater in one mā saith Domingo à Soto then in another and according to that increase our faith Therefore your former reason which you giue why faith is said to be one namely because the beleefe of one man is in all points like the beleefe of another must be vnderstood of likenesse in regard of the articles they beleeue not of any equalitie in the habit or qualitie it selfe and in that sense onely doth Irenaeus say that faith is one Which saith he no man by his eloquence maketh greater no man by his weaknes in speaking of it lesse We see saith Feuardentius that Irenaeus vehemently vrgeth the vnitie of doctrine and consent of faith which we affirmed to be one of the notes of the true Church Therefore whereas you said of Irenaeus that he affirmes faith to be one because the whole Church doth beleeue those things points of faith in one like manner you mistake his meaning and auow that which is vntrue It is great pitie but that such as you are coming in the name and by the authority of the Church should haue absolute credit giuen to that you teach without doubting or examining it at all Your second reason why faith is said to be one neither agrees with Irenaeus meaning as appeares by that which hath bene alreadie said and in the latter part is false too for both it is a fansie of yours that God hath deliuered it to vs by the Catholicke Church since the Prophets Apostles and Ministers are not the Catholicke Church but members of it the last all of them seuerally and ioyntly subiect to many errors though not fundamentall And the reason of beleeuing is simply and onely the authoritie and will of God made knowne to vs by the ministerie of men the holy Ghost enlightening our vnderstanding and enclining our hearts to beleeue But
of this matter we must speake more at large hereafter A. D. CHAP. III. That this one faith necessarie to saluation is infallible A. W. If you had bene desirous that euery man should vnderstand you instead of infallible you would rather haue said certaine or without doubting especially since your selfe diuers times vsed the word in the passiue signification for that which may not be doubted of as being most certainly true In this sense you say afterward in this Chapter that the word of Christ is absolutely infallible and againe in the end of the Chapter that we must account the word of faith absolutely infallible A. D. §. 1. This one faith without which we cannot be saued must be infallible and most certaine This is cleare because faith is that credit or inward assents of minde which we giue to that which God who is the prime or first veritie which neither can deceiue nor be deceiued hath reuealed vnto vs by meanes of the preaching or teaching of the true Church as we may gather out of S. Paul when he saith Quomodo credent ei quem non audierunt quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur c. ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi The sense of which words is that sith we cannot beleeue vnlesse we heare nor beare vnlesse some lawfully sent do preach vnto vs faith is bred in vs by hearing and yeelding assent or credit to the word of Christ made knowne vnto vs by the preaching of the true Church which onely is lawfully sent of God wherefore like as the word of Christ being God is absolutely infallible so also the credit giuen to this word which is our faith must needs be also most certaine and infallible A. W. The title and beginning of the Chapter speake of faith as it is a grace or qualitie but the conclusion of the Chapter is concerning the infallibilitie or certaintie of the word of faith as you call it that is the thing to be beleeued so do you run from one thing to another But I may say of this Chapter as I haue done in part of the former that we acknowledge the truth of both these points and thinke your labour in prouing them altogether vnnecessary only in the former there may be some doubt For though it be out of question that we are to endeuor for the perfection as of all other graces of God so of that faith wherby we assent to the truth of that which God hath reuealed yet it comes to passe sometimes by our infirmitie that our faith is accompanied with doubting And this as we heard before Sotus grants to be true of a Catholicke faith and prooues it by the prayer of the Apostles Lord increase our faith to which I may adde the like request of him that crying with teares said Lord I beleeue helpe my vnbeleefe But if any man desire to see a liuely patterne of this doubting let him looke vpon Dauid as he describes himselfe in the Psalme Certainly I haue cleansed my heart in vaine and washed my hands in innocency c. Then thought I to know this but it was too painfull for me And afterward so foolish was I and ignorant I was a beast before thee And yet the point he speaks of is a rulde case in Diuinitie propounded by him in the beginning of the Psalme namely that the prouidence of God watcheth ouer the righteous for their good and that he will be auenged of the wicked That faith which some Diuines call historicall is indeed such an assent goeth alwaies before iustifying faith at the least for the beleeuing of so much as is necessarie to iustification Which I note by the way that no man may be deceiued with an opinion that iustifying faith is an assent to the truth of Gods word whereas it is quite of another nature and hath place in the will rather then in the vnderstanding If you had said that God hath reuealed his truth to vs by the preaching of them that were in the true Church you had spokē more plainely and truely But how the true Church or any Church at all should be said to preach I professe I vnderstand not Neither can any such thing be gathered out of Saint Paule who speakes not a word of the Church true or false And to say the truth what a strange kind of speech is it to say The Church is sent to preach when as onely the Ministers preach and not the Church vnlesse perhaps Iohn Baptist only for a time was the Church whē he preached alone before our Sauiour was baptised But this same Church is a goodly faire word and couers a great many foule errours with the very name of it The Apostles who were they that God employed at the first beginning of the Gospell both in preaching and writing were vndoubtedly of the true Church both in respect of their election to euerlasting life and of the truth of the doctrine they held It is also true that God ordinarily begetteth faith in the hearts of men by the ministers of the true Church But it is not true that such an assent as you speake of cannot be wrought in a man by the ministery of Schismaticks or Hereticks though they be perhaps in neither respect any members of the true Church Did not Arius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius and many other wretched hereticks assent in generall to the truth of God in Scriptures because they held it to be the very true word of God And might not men by their preaching be brought to the same faith For our parts we make no doubt but that in the middest of ignorance and superstition many came to this faith by the preaching of your Antichristian Priests and so do at this day yea we adde further that we doubt not many haue wee are sure they might and may attaine to the same faith what if I say to iustifying faith too without any preaching by the reading of the Scriptures For since it is partly the matter that must argue the Scripture to be the word of God partly the maiesty which any man may discerne in the manner of writing vnlesse it can be poooued out of the Scripture that the holy Ghost will not worke by these vpō the heart of him that readeth but only of him that heareth a man expound this word vnto him I see no sufficient reason why faith may not be had by reading where Gods ordinance of preaching is onely wanting and not wilfully neglected But you will say the Apostle tyeth faith to hearing First this is little aduantage for you Papists amongst whom til shame emulation draue you to it within these last fiftie or threescore yeares no man could ordinarily heare the word of God in any tongue that he vnderstood and so all your hearing was to no purpose Secondly if hearing be sufficient where there is nothing but reading without any
exposition of that which is read giue me some reason why reading should not be more sufficiēt since he that readeth may easier vnderstand and better weigh that he readeth then he that doth onely heare an other reade But of this point I shall haue occasion to say more hereafter Now for the second point that we cannot heare vnlesse some lawfully sent that is as you vnderstand it vnlesse some sent by the authority of the Church do preach vnto vs first how shal this warrant the Apostles preaching of which S. Paul here speaketh For who knowes not that they were sent immediatly by our Sauiour not by any ordinary course in the Church Secondly it seemes you fortet what is written in the Ecclesiasticall histories of a captiue maid that conuerted the queene of Iberia she the king he his countrey What is recorded of Aedesius Frumentius by whom the Indians were brought to the knowledge of the Gospell How Alexander Bishop of Ierusalem and Theoctistus Bishop of Caesarea defend Origens preaching publickly when as yet he was not allowed by the Church for a minister Which fact of his they maintaine by the like examples of Euelpis Paulinus and Theodorus who had preached without any ordinarie sending And it is verie likely say they that the same hath beene done in other places though we know it not How little care you had of writing plainely any man may guesse by this one sentence wherein this needlesse word infallible is vsed in two diuers senses for certainty of truth where you speake of that we are to beleeue for assurance of beleefe without doubting where you meane faith it selfe A. D. §. 2. Fides saith S. Basile est eorum quae dicta sunt assentiens approbatio sine vlla haesitatione cum animi persuasione de eorum veritate quae Dermunere praedicata sunt Faith is a consenting approbation of those things which are said an vndoubted perswasion of minde of the truth of those things which are preached by the gift of God Fides saith Saint Chrysostome dici non potest nisi circa ea quae non videntur ampliùs quà m circa ea quae videntur certitudinem quis habeat It cannot be called faith vnlesse one be more certaine of those things which are not seene then of those things which are seene The reason whereof the same Saint Chrysostom declareth in an other place saying Superet sensum rationem nostram sermo ipsius Dei nam verbis eius fraudari non possumus sensus verò noster deceptu facillimus est Let Gods word saith he surmount our sense and reason for we can not be deceiued by his words but our sense is most easily deceiued A. W. These testimonies are more for ostentation to shew your learning then for necessitie to confirme a matter not doubted of Yet I must put you in minde that these descriptions and commendations of faith are not brought by the authors to condemne all as cast-awaies that sometimes doubt but to declare what faith is in it owne nature A. D. § 3. Sith therefore our faith is grounded on the word of God reuealed to vs by Iesus Christ our Lord speaking by the mouth of the Church as he saith himselfe Qui vos audit me audit he that heareth you heareth me we ought to receiue the word of faith preached by the true Church not as the word of man but as it is truely the word of God and consequently we must account it a thing most certaine and absolutely infallible A. W. Our Sauiour Christ doth no farther speake by the mouth of the Church then the Church speakes according to the Scripture whom so speaking whosoeuer heareth without doubt he heareth God both because it is the word of God that is spoken and because God hath commaunded vs to heare them that so speake But here againe for a shew the name Church is brought in whereas the testimonie belongs onely to the Apostles if you take it for them that must absolutely be heard without all doubting of that they deliuer and to euery one of them seuerally who doubtlesse is not the Church or else to all Ministers of the gospell from time to time but not without that restraint I mentioned before of speaking agreably to the word If you will stretch the place to other beside the Apostles in that point of being absolutely heard shew some reason why euery Pastor and licensed Preacher may not claime the same priuiledge of being heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach But that this is absord it may appeare because our Sauiour Christ foretold that there should come false prophets who alwaies are to be discerned by their doctrine And who is ignorant that the greatest hereticks had many of them lawfull calling in the Churches and yet ranne into monstrous heresies Doth not our Sauiour also will the Iewes to heare the Scribes and Pharisies what absolutely If they will teach their owne deuises saith Austin heare them not do not as they say But what name I Austen Doth not Christ himselfe giue the same charge Take heed and beware of the leuen of the Scribes and Pharises And what is their leuen but their doctrine by the holy Ghosts owne exposition Iansenius Bishop of Gant expounds the place of the Apostles and though he gather from thence the power of the Ecclesiasticall gouernours yet he restraineth it to their inioyning of that which is right Wee are to note saith he how great the authoritie of Ecclesiasticall gouernours is since we must obey them no otherwise then we must Christ when they commaund those things that are right Doe you not see your owne Bishops limitation vpon this verie place you alleage The ancient writers expound the place of the Apostles Your glosse requires deuotion and reuerence to the hearing of Christs Disciples for the reuerence of God whose doctrine principally it is which they deliuer So that they which preach not Christs doctrine cannot looke for so much as reuerence There fore true doctrine is alwaies to be receiued whosoeuer deliuer it whether he be lawfully sent or no and false doctrine neuer though it be preached by a Pope who being no Apostle can shew no charter for his being kept from error though his priue and your flatterie exalt him aboue all saue Peter A. D. CHAP. IIII. That this one infallible faith necessary to saluation must also be entire A. W. Whereas you say obscurely in your title Faith must be entire your meaning is that a Christian must beleeue all things appointed by God propoūded by the Church to be beleeued Wold you not haue said so if you had loued plainnesse What if I should ask you a reason why the title of this Chapter is not set downe in the same forme the rest are Faith is necessary Chap. 1. is one Chap. 2. is infallible Chap. 3. But in this 4. Chap.
in a matter of such weight The conclusion is that howsoeuer it is indeed a sinne and so in it selfe damnable to misbeleeue or not beleeue all and euery thing which God hath reuealed yet a man may be in the state of grace and saluation though he misbeleeue or through ignorance obstinately not beleeue something so reuealed In a word Not right beleeuing is neuer able to depriue a man of saluation but when that we beleeue amisse is a maine point of saluation obstinately not beleeuing onely then shuts vp heauen against vs when either the points we will not beleeue are fundamentall or our refusing to beleeue is against our owne iudgement and conscience If you had no further reach in this Chapter we were of the same mind with you but in propounding the reason of your assertion you bewray a further matter then at the first a man would imagine A. D. §. 2. The reason of this is because euery point of doctrine yea euery word that almightie God hath reuealed and by his Church propounded vnto vs to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued as we may gather out of Saint Marke where when our Sauiour had giuen charge to his Disciples to preach the Gospell to euery creature the which charge he also gaue in Saint Mathew saying Docete omnes gentes c. docentes eos seruare omnia quaecunque mandaui vobis Teach all nations c. teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you he pronounceth indefinitely Qui non crediderit condemnabitur He that shall not beleeue shall be condemned not excepting or distinguishing any one point of doctrine as needlesse to be beleeued or which a man might at his pleasure misbeleeue or doubt of without danger A. W. Your first reason lieth thus If euery point and word reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued then faith must be entire But euery word so reuealed and propounded must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued Therefore faith must be entire The conclusion of this Syllogisme is acknowledged by vs for a certaine truth Faith must be entire but the premisses seeme liable to iust exception For first the antecedent and the consequent of the proposition are all one and so the proofe and that which is proued differ not What is it to say euery word reuealed by God must be beleeued but to affirme that faith must be entire Indeed if the questiō were of faith as it is a quality then the consequent might be inferred vpon the antecedent but since we speake of the things to be beleeued both are one If euery such word must be beleeued then we must beleeue euery such word It is the same faith by which all and by which some is beleeued but as the obiect or things beleeued make a difference which reacheth not to the faith it selfe within the soule Secondly the Assumption though it be true yet doth it containe something that had need to be warily considered First you so couple the reuealing by God and the propounding of a thing to be beleeued by the church as if the latter were no lesse necessary then the former to make a matter of faith wheras al things that God hath reuealed ought to be beleeued whether the Church propoūd them for such or no. For the reason why they are to be beleeued is that they proceed from God who must needs be credited in whatsoeuer he shal say in respect both of his truth in speaking and his authoritie in commaunding obedience But you Papists make the authoritie of the Church the very foundation of our beleefe The Scripture you say is in it selfe the word of God and so worthy of all credit but to vs it is not so but by the authoritie of the Church vpon the credit whereof we take it for the word of God Yea farther you limit faith in particular points by the determination of the Church so that no man shall be bound to beleeue as a point of faith any doctrine neuer so certainly proued out of Scripture vnlesse the Church haue resolued of it that it is true and whatsoeuer is by the Church concluded for true must be acknowledged for such by faith though it be beside or against the Scripture which as Cardinall Cusan is not ashamed nor afraid to say is fitted for the time and diuersly vnderstood So that it may at one time be expounded one way according to the generall current order of the Church and the same order being changed the Scripture also is changed And why should it not if as another Papist saith the holy Scripture take strength and authoritie from the doctrine of the Church and Bishop of Rome The Apostles saith Pighius haue written certaine things not that their writings should be aboue our faith but that they should be vnder it But what should I stand to recite your blasphemies in this kind which are many and monstrous That which is not to day a point of faith shall be one to morrow if it please the Pope to propound it to be beleeued It is farther to be considered in your Assumption that although whatsoeuer God reuealeth is to be beleeued vpō paine of damnation yet a man may be saued without beleeuing euery thing so reuealed alwayes prouided that he do not against his conscience obstinately refuse to acknowledge any truth If our Sauiour haue said that he which beleeueth not all that his Apostles teach shall be condemned then euery word so reuealed and propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation But our Sauiour hath said so Therefore euery word so propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation This is a proofe of your Assumption wherein for the consequence of your proposition I would haue all men vnderstand that although you craftily imply therein a comparison of equalitie betwixt the charge of beleeuing the Apostles and all other Ministers allowed by you whom you call by the name of the Church to deceiue simple people with so glorious a title yet the truth of that proposition depends not thereupon but onely vpon the necessitie of beleeuing that which God hath reuealed It is a certaine truth that God is to be beleeued in all things he hath reuealed by whom soeuer he propound it in this respect the consequence of your proposition is true That if it were damnable not to beleeue the Apostles deliuering that which God had reuealed it is also damnable not to giue credit to Ministers now when they propound that to be beleeued which God hath reuealed because the reason of beleeuing is that God hath reuealed the things that are deliuered But yet here are two differences to be obserued first that it is lesse sinne to doubt of that which any man besides the Apostles deliuers though it be the word of God then to make question of the same matter vttered by the
no man euer dreamed of viz. that we commonly build our faith vpon our English translation So that the Scripture may well be the rule of faith for ought that you haue said against it concerning the first propertie of certaine truth which it were blasphemie to denie of the scripture For the second that the rule must be easie to vnderstand I haue shewed that there is no necessitie of that condition and that the scripture is easie in matters necessary to saluation In the last point of the scriptures defect touching many things that must needs be beleeued you do both wrong God in making his word writtē so vnperfect and by a foolish craft insteed of proouing that the scripture containeth not all matters of faith needfull to saluation vndertake to shew that which no man denieth that all points of beleefe are not expresly set down and determined by scripture And lest we should forget your shuffling in this point you offer new proofe of a needlesse matter from the authoritie of Austin Basil and Epiphanius whose testimonies I alledged before to prooue the sufficiencie of the scripture in all matters necessarie to saluation The places by you alledged are not of such matters neither speake of things not expresly contained but onely shew that for matters of fact ceremonie the Apostles haue not determined al particulars The Apostles saith Austin haue commaunded nothing touching not rebaptising them which haue bene baptised by hereticks but the custome which was pleaded against Cyprian is to be beleeued to haue had beginning from their tradition as there are many things which the Church euery where holdeth that we wel beleeue therefore to haue beene enioyned by the Apostles though they are not found written What is this to prooue that there are matters necessarie to be beleeued to saluation which are not exprest in the scriptures Basil was not the the author of that Treatise at the least of the latter part of it from about the 17. chapter and so forward That appeareth first by obseruing the difference of style being neither like Basils writing nor in one place like an other as Erasmus hath truly obserued who translated it Secondly by the fond discourse he maketh propounding one thing handling an other and concluding a third which not onely Basil would neuer haue done but no man of any discretion Last of all he bewraieth himselfe to be a counterfeit by speaking of Meletius as one dead long before who liued in his time ouerliued him as it is manifest by the Ecclesiasticall historie But admit the booke were Basils what is there in it to proue that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in Scripture This Author saith that we must beleeue oraditions VVhat In matters of doctrine There is no such word in him He speaketh of outward carriage in ceremonies and phrases of speech The question in that part of his Treatise is of the preposition with that is to speake that euery man may vnderstand whether it be lawfull to say in the Church seruice and otherwise Glorie be to the Father and to the Sonne with the holy Ghost or whether we must needs say and to the holy Ghost not with For this speech that author pleades tradition Do we denie any such matter Or do we not acknowledge the libertie and authoritie of the Churches in such matters Who sees not that our custome now is to say Glory be to the Father to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost Not that thereby we condemne the other kind of speech but because in matters left to our libertie we take that which seemeth fittest Epiphanius speaking of praier for the dead which hath no warrant of Scripture is glad to helpe himselfe with the authoritie of tradition telling vs that some things must be held by tradition and not all taken out of the scriptures But Epiphanius doth not say that this is a doctrine or action necessarie to saluation A. D. §. 6. Some obiect against this conclusion that place of S. Paul Omnis Scriptura diuinitùs inspirata vtilis est ad docendum c. vt perfectus sit homo c. But this place prooueth nothing against that which I haue said For it saith not that scripture alone is sufficient to instruct a man to perfection but that it is profitable for this purpose as it is indeed and the rather because it commendeth vnto vs the authoritie of the Church which as I shall afterwards proue is sufficient Now it is certaine that to be profitable and to be of it selfe alone sufficient be farre different things Stones and Timber be profitable to the building of an house yet they alone without a worke-man to square them and set them in order be not sufficient for this purpose A. W. Of this place I haue spoken sufficiently otherwhere and shewed that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise to saluation and therefore sufficient to that purpose Now the Apostle hauing giuen that commendation to the scripture vers 15. proceedeth in the next to exemplifie that in particular which he had before said in generall It is able to make thee wise to saluation it is able to fit thee to teaching reproouing correcting instructing Can any reasonable man thinke that the Apostle deliuering by way of amplification his former commendation of the scripture that he might the rather stirre vp Timothie to the studie of it would say lesse then he had done before But it is a great deale lesse to say no more but the scripture is profitable to such purposes then to commend it as able to make a man wise to saluation Therefore though the word indeed doe not expresly signifie sufficiencie yet it cannot be doubted but the profit mentioned implieth such a sufficiencie especially since he addeth perfection which must arise from this word of God And so as I haue shewed elsewhere do Chrysostome and Theophylact vnderstand it who make the Apostle speake to Timothie to this effect that he being now to be offred vp leaueth the scriptures in his steed of which he may in all things take aduise and counsell as if the Apostle himselfe were present with him But you forsooth would make vs beleeue that the scripture is indeed profitable to this end but not sufficient Is not the knowledge of arts tongues philosophy and history of verie good vse also to this purpose Slender then too slender is the commendation our Apostle giueth the scriptures if it be of no greater excellēcy then these humane furtherances but only in a certain degree of profit To helpe the matter you propound one particular for which the scripture is profitable namely to commend vnto vs the authority of the Church But neither doth it cōmend to vs any such authority as you imagin if that be the rule of the scripture one sentēce had bin as good better then
and writing Further it is false that a priuate spirit agreeing with the Catholicke Church in doctrine can be in that point of agreement the rule of faith For although the doctrine he teacheth be true yet is it not the rule of faith much lesse is he himselfe because of his authoritie but either as you say by reason of the authoritie of the Church or indeed as we truly affirme for that it is agreeable to the word of God in the Scripture called canonical because it is the rule of faith and manners Now for answer to your Syllogisme I say your Assumption is not simply true but onely so farre forth as the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church I speake as you do agreeth with the truth in the Scripture reuealed Neither doth Saint Paul speake of whatsoeuer doctrine receiued by your imagined Catholicke Church of Rome but of that which he himselfe or some other of the Apostles had taught the Galatians to whom he writeth that Epistle This it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore in your crastie discretion for bare to translate the Apostles words which for the most part you set downe alwayes as well in English as in Latine The reason lieth thus He that teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued of the Apostles is to be accursed for his preaching so But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued by the Apostles Therefore a priuate spirit teaching contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church is to be accursed for his preaching so Who seeth not that the truth of this Assumption dependeth vpon this point that the Catholicke Church hath receiued no other doctrine then that which the Apostles taught the Galatians But this hath as much need of sound proofe as that for the proofe whereof it is brought and therefore to dispute thus against any man that would hold a priuate spirit to be the rule of faith were to giue him occasion to laugh at you for begging the question in stead of prouing it But to make all men see how small force there is in this your reason for the keeping of a priuate spirit from being the rule of faith I will frame two other syllogismes against a publick spirit or Councel and against the Pope 1. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholick Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith 2. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith Haue you not spun a faire threed thinke you to choake the Popes and the Councels authoritie withall Call your wits about you and deuise some cleanly shift for the matter or I can tel you all wil be naught For your Religion is no more able to hold vp head if the Popes authoritie be cast downe then a man that hath neuer a leg is able to stand vpright It will go the harder with you in this matter because if I grant that the Pope cannot erre you are neuer a whit the nearer for the answering of my syllogisme as you may perceiue if you will but assay to apply that point for answer to either part thereof There is no other way but to giue ouer this your first reason against a priuate spirit and to make amends for it in the second if you can A. D. §. 3. Secondly the rule of faith must be infallible plainly knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall that is to say such as may sufficiently instruct all men in all points of faith without danger of errour as hath bene proued before But this priuate spirit is not such For first that man himselfe cannot be vnfallibly sure that he in particular is taught by the holy spirit For neither is there any promise in Scripture to assure him infallibly that he in particular is thus taught neither is there any other sufficient reason to perswade the same For suppose he haue such extraordinarie motions feelings or illustrations which he thinketh cannot come of himselfe but from some spirit yet he cannot in reason straightwayes conclude that he is thus moued and taught by the spirit of God For sure it is that euery spirit is not the Spirit of God As there is the spirit of truth so there is a spirit of errour As there is an Angell of light so there is a Prince of darknesse Yea sometimes Ipse Sathanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Sathan himselfe doth transfigure himselfe into an Angell of light Wherefore he had need very carefully to put in practise the aduise of Saint Iohn who saith Nolite credere omni spiritui sed probate spiritus si ex Deo sint Doe not beleeue euerie spirit but prooue and trie them whether they be of God or no. Neither doth it seeme sufficient that a priuate man trie them onely by his owne iudgement or by those motions feelings or illuminations which in his priuate conceit are conformable to Scripture because all this triall is verie vncertaine and subiect to errour by reason that our owne iudgement especially in our own matters is verie easily deceiued and that Sathan can so cunningly couer himselfe vnder the shape of a good Angell and so colour his wicked designements with pretense of good and so gild his darke and grosse errours with the glistering light of the words and seeming sense of scripture that hardly or not at all he shall be perceiued VVherefore the safest way were to trie these spirits by the touchstone of the true Pastours of the Catholicke Church who may say with S. Paul Nō ignoramus cogitationes Satanae we are not ignorant of the cogitations of Sathan and who may also say with S. Iohn Nos ex Deo sumus qui nouit Deum audit nos qui non est ex Deo non audit nos In hoc cognoscimus spiritum veritatis spiritum erroris VVe are of God he that knoweth God heareth vs he that is not of God doth not heare vs. In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour Now if any will not admit this manner of trying discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of errour but will trust their owne iudgement alone in this matter feare they may iustly nay rather they may be sure as Cassian saith that they shall worship in their thoughts the Angell of darknesse for the Angel of light to
companie congregatio congregation multitudo multitude turba troope concio assembly exercitus armie But the two Greeke words are best knowne Ecclesia and Synagôga the former whereof commeth of the Hebrew retaining almost the signification and sound thereof In this they all agree that they note vnto vs a companie or assembly But because the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the word that most of all concerneth this question let vs enquire of that the more diligently The word for the nature of it signifieth any companie called together generally any assembly lawfully or vnlawfully orderly or disorderly assembled Of lawful assemblies there is no question of vnlawfull we haue an example in the Scripture where the people of Ephesus tumultuously ranne together against Paul and Apollos So doth the Hebrew word signifie in the Psalmes where the Greeke and Latine translate by the same word I haue hated the assembly of the wicked But in the new testament except that one place of the Acts it is alwaies applied to them that make profession of religion In which sense it is sometimes vsed indefinitely God hath ordained some in the Church first Apostles c. So the Apostle Paul saith that he had persecuted the Church of God Thus may we also vnderstād that The house of God which is the Church of the liuing God If we conceiue that the Apostle speaketh to Timothie as to an Euangelist and not as to the Pastor or Bishop of Ephesus Hitherto may those places be referred The Lord added to the Church from day to day And great feare came on all the Church Herode stretched forth his hand to vexe certaine of the Church and such like though they may also be vnderstood of the beleeuers at those times ordinarily abiding in Ierusalem and assembling themselues together in one or which is the likelier in diuers congregations for exercise of religion More particularly and vsually the Church is taken for anie one congregation assembled about matters of religion It seemed good to the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church Not as if the Apostles and Elders had bene no members of that Church but the principall being first named the generall terme is added which comprehended all as if they should haue said The Apostles and Elders and all the rest of the Church at Ierusalem whereof as it was a particular congregation the Apostles at that time were not members And in this meaning may a Councell of diuers parishes prouinces or nations be called by the name of a Church and in the like sort may we call the assemblies congregations in Rome Coriath Ephesus the Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus because of some common synod or because by the terme Church the beleeuers are signified Most vsually the seuerall congregations in any countrie or Citie are called Churches because of their ordinarie assembling Then had the Churches rest through all Iudea When they had ordained them Elders by election in euery Church VVe haue no such custome nor the Churches of God When the title is applied to particular families it hath no other meaning as I take it then to note them for Christians or beleeuers Greet the Church that is the beleeuers which are in their house And thus much of the Church as it signifieth generally Beleeuers The word Church is vsed in the scriptures and that verie often not for all but onely for some beleeuers namely for such as are indeed true beleeuers in respect of true faith in Iesus Christ and these are alwaies of the elect who are then called the Church when they are brought to the knowledge of the truth and to Iustifying faith Therefore when we say that the Church signifieth the elect or predestinate we meane onely such of the elect as by faith are members of our Sauiours bodie he being the head For howsoeuer in the secret Counsell of God many not yet borne be predestinate to euerlasting life yet they are not to be accounted of this Church before it hath pleased God to call them to beleeue in Christ Examples of the Church thus taken amongst many are these Vpon this rocke I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it God hath giuen Christ aboue all the head of the Church So the Church is called Christs bodie This may serue concerning the meaning of the wotd out of which I obserue this point that since the terme Church is so diuersly taken in the scripture no argument from any place of Scripture can be of force to prooue any question till the signification of the word in that place be euident and certaine And therefore it is not enough for proofe of a matter in controuersie betwixt vs to alledge a text of Scripture where such a thing is spoken of the Church but it stands vs vpon to prooue that in the place we alledge by Church the companie we intend is signified This being vnderstood and remembred I come now to the seuerall points in your Minor A. D. §. 4. The promise of our Sauiour Christ we haue first in the Gospell of Saint Matthew Ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi I am with you all the daies vntill the end of the world in which words is promised the continuall presence of Christ himselfe who is veritas the truth it selfe with his Church not for a while then or for a while now but all the daies vntill the end of the world Secondly we haue an other promise in the Gospell of Saint Iohn Ego rogabo Patrem alium paracletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aeternum Spiritum veritatis I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other paraclite the spirit of truth that he may remaine with you not onely for 600. yeares but for euer And againe in the same Saint Iohn to shew vs for what purpose he would haue his holy Spirit remaine among vs for euer he saith Paracletus quem mittet Pater in nomine meo ille vos docebit omnia suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero vobis The paraclite whom my Father will send in my name shall teach you all things and shall put you in minde of all things whatsoeuer I shall say vnto you And againe Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis docebit vos omnem veritatem When that spirit of truth shall come he shall teach you all truth A. W. The first point of your Minor is that Christ promiseth his presence and the assistance of his spirit to teach them all truth First I demaund whether our Sauiours presence be for the teaching of all truth or no or whether that be onely the office of the spirit If the former to what purpose is the spirit promised whom our Sauiour hath appointed his vicegerent as it were in that matter as the other places you alledge prooue
with them to the very end of their liues for their instruction and comfort neither of which are needfull any longer then while we are in this world They that apply these promises to all the elect also for to any visible companie of men I thinke besides you Papists no man doth neither make for your opinion because they tie them not to any companie but giue euery true Christian his like part in the priuiledge of this spirit and as we heard ere while out of your ordinary Glosse leaue some truth to be reuealed in the life to come I do not thinke saith Austin that in this life the promise of being taught all truth can be fulfilled in any mans mind For who liuing in this bodie which is corrupted and presseth downe the soule can know all truth when the Apostle saith We know in part By which it is also apparent that according to Austins iudgement for euer may be vnderstood of continuing after this life Secondly if these places proue that the Church is a sure foundation or rule of faith it must follow that euery particular teacher is so For eueryone of them to whom our Sauior made these promises was seuerally according thereunto taught all truth and not all ioyntly as if they might haue erred being seuered which you confesse of your Church and therefore this teaching appertaineth not to it Of the seuerall places I say further that in the first of them there is no mention of teaching all truth but onely of sending the spirit of truth That is saith Theophylact the spirit not of the old Testament for that was a figure and a shadow but of the new which is the truth The spirit of truth saith Lyra because he is essentially the truth and teacheth the truth He calleth him the spirit of truth saith Iansenius because he is the author of all truth and the only giuer of pure and sound truth For he onely teacheth the truth without mixture of any falshood or error Also he only teacheth the truth wherein the saluation of man consisteth In the second place you haue followed the vulgar Latine against the truth of the Greeke and sense of the text The Greek is All that I haue told you not as you translare it All that I shall say vnto you It is the praeter tense saith your B. Iansenius not the future in the Greeke So do Pagnin Vatablus and Montanus translate it The holy Ghost saith Theophylact shall make you vnderstand those things that are obscure and hard For those things that seeme hard vnto you I told you when I remained with you Your interlined Glosse referreth teaching to the vnderstanding and putting in mind to the will He shall teach you saith the Glosse that you may know and suggest that you may will Tell me then why I may not gather from hence that the Church shal not erre in manners or at least shall haue true faith in heart not onely in profession But it is certain that it is possible the greater part of a Councell yea and the Pope himselfe may be without true faith and it is enough to make a man a member of your church that he professe outwardly By all truth our Sauiour meaneth all truth necessary to saluation saith Iansenius So your Glosse Theophylact referreth it to the truth of those things which were shadowed out in the law and by the discouerie of the truth to be abolished Hugo restraineth it to all truth concerning Christ himselfe But let vs take all truth as largely as you can reasonably conceiue it Wil it follow therupō trow you that therefore the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith May not the Church be taught all truth by the holy Ghost and yet teach some deuice of her owne which she neuer learned of him It is one thing to teach a man all truth and another to keepe him so that he shal deliuer nothing but that truth Your Minor therefore is false because this first part of it is so A. D. §. 5. The charge and commission is plaine in S. Mathew Euntes docete omnes gentes Going teach all nations And in S. Marke Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni creaturae Going into the whole world preach the Gospell to euery creature A. W. The charge which our Sauior gaue for preaching the Gospell to all nations was no commaundement to his Church that is to the companie of the beleeuers or to the Cleargie as you speake in all ages but a commission to the Apostles and first Disciples for the performance of that dutie The reason why it is deliuered so at large may be gathered out of Mathew 10. ch where at their first sending they were limited to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel and barred from going to the Gentiles Go not saith our Sauiour into the way of the Gentiles and into the cities of the Samaritans enter not but go rather to the lost sheepe of the house of Israel And that this charge belongeth not to men now a dayes it is euident because neither doth our Sauiour bestow the gift of tongues to that purpose as he did on those whom he sent to that worke neither can we haue any calling to such a purpose hauing no gifts for it yet do not we denie but that it is lawfull for Princes who haue by conquest or otherwise the gouernment of strange nations to see that they be instructed in the faith yea we thinke this lieth vpon them as a necessary dutie Neither do we barre any man of taking whatsoeuer oportunitie God shall giue to preach the Gospell to any people A captiue maide was by the blessing of God made the meanes of conuerting the Iberians from heathenisme to Christianitie the King of that people as the historie saith becoming the Apostle of his nation Frumentius and Aedesius being caried into India when they were yong were afterward employed by God for the instructing of the Indians in true religion But your minor is not proued by that commission Christ commanded his Apostles and Disciples in the beginning of the Church to preach to all nations therefore the Church hath commission to do the like now Besides this charge was layd vpon euery one of the Apostles and all the disciples so furnished with the gift of tongues according as the Apostles thought it meete to employ them Doth this commandement bind your church that is either your Pope who wil not preach at home much lesse will he go abroade to all quarters of the world or your Councels who seuerall are not the church And this charge lay vpon them to whom it was giuen seuerally and was not a matter to be performed by all together in one place Therefore your minor is false also in the second part of it concerning the charge which you say is giuen to
also in the forgiuenesse of sinnes and the meaning is all one And in a third Sermon he giueth vs this caueat we must know saith he that we must beleeue the Church not beleeue in the Church that is must beleeue there is a Church So then To beleeue the Catholicke Church is not to beleeue all that the Church saith which neither the Greeke nor the Latin will beare but to beleeue there is a Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Credo esse Ecclesiam which in the phrase of the new Testament for the Greeke might be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which is word for word I beleeue that there is a Church Now if any man shall demaūd of me what the meaning of this article is or what we beleeue by beleeuing there is a Church and what that Church is to which so many gracious promises are made and of which so many glorious things are spokē in the scripture I will indeuor to satisfie him as briefly as I can with plainnesse First then leauing the holinesse and catholicknesse of this church to be discussed in due place I say that by beleeuing the Church we beleeue that there is a company of men called to true faith in Iesus Christ and to the participation of those priuiledges which belong to all the true members of his mysticall bodie some of the principall whereof are recited in the articles following But we may not imagine as the Papists doe without any likelihood of true reason that this company is their Pope and Bishops assembled in a generall councel or that they of this companie make one visible congregation but that they are all one Church in regard of the common meanes of saluation which they embrace and their dependance vpon on mysticall head Iesus Christ of whose bodie they are all members So that by Church in the Creed we vnderstand such of the elect as are by faith liuely members of our Sauiours bodie or at the least are by the baptisme of the spirit and water in corporated into that bodie howsoeuer as yet they haue not faith I denie not that all the elect euen those which are yet vnborne belong to the Church of Christ but I thinke the Creed doth not stretch so farre but onely to them that are actually members of Christ not to all that are so in Gods euerlasting predestination In this sense namely for the liuing members of Christs bodie the word Church is often vsed in the Scripture Vpon this rocke will I build my Church The Church which he hath purchased with his blood God hath giuen Christ ouer all things to be the head of the Church which is his bodie the fulnesse of him that filleth all in all things Christ is the head of the Church and the same is the Sauiour of his bodie So is it taken in the same chapter diuers times He is the head of the bodie of the Church Thus doe the ancient writers speake of the Church Austin denieth that he dares take any for the Church of Christ but those that are iust and holy no though they haue bene baptised For as he saith in another place they that are condemned by Christ are not now in his bodie which is the Church because Christ cannot haue members condemned As for the reprobate saith the same Author whether they seeme to be within the Church or be apparantly out of it they are alwaies diuided from the vnitie of the Church which is without spot or wrincle The Church saith Clement of Alexandria is the company of the elect Therefore saith Cyprian that the vnitie of Christ and the Church is coupled together with indiuisible links For as he saith otherwhere the Church that beleeueth in Christ and holds that which once it hath receiued neuer departeth wholy frō him they are the Church that cōtinue in the house of God but they are not a planting planted by God who are not setled with the fastnesse and soundnesse of wheat but are scattered like chaffe by the breath of the enemie Sathan The Church standeth on the right hand saith Ierome and hath nothing in it belonging to them on the left hand And againe He that is a sinner and defiled with any filthinesse cannot be called one of Christs Church nor be said to be subiect to Christ There are many such sayings in the writings of the Fathers grounded vpon the booke of Canticles which all men know intreateth of the true church There is no doubt saith Bernard vpon the Canticles but the elect are the Church of God But the reprobat as one of your Cardinals saith are not truly mēbers of the Church Of many beleeuers purged from their sinnes there is made one Church saith Albertus magnus Thomas his master Thomas himselfe expounding that place of the Reuelation In the Temple of my God saith that by the temple of God the Church of the faithfull is vnderstood which is the speciall temple of God and to that purpose he alledgeth that of the Apostle The temple of God is holy which you are And in an other place he saith that the mysticall bodie of Christ is the Church Now the vnion of this mystical bodie is spiritual by which through faith and charitie they are vnited to God and one to another As the godly or they that are holy are the members of Christ so the wicked saith Ambrose are the members of the Diuell The congregation of them that beleeue aright is the Church saith Altissiodorensis Who can reasonably doubt whether this be the Church spoken of in the Creed or no As for the promises and commendations giuen to the Church in the Scripture to what other Church should they appertaine The Doue and the perfect one praised in the Canticles is as Epiphanius truly saith the holy spouse and Catholicke Church Whereas the Church in the Canticles saith Austin is described to be a garden inclosed a fountain sealed vp a wel of liuing water c. I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous not of couetous men not of deceiuers extortioners vsurers drunkards enuious persons although they haue receiued the same baptisme but haue not the same charitie or sanctifying grace The promises praises belong either seuerally to euery one of the elect called as that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church that the Church is loued and cherished by Christ her husband head or to the congregations of beleeuers in regard of the elect amongst them Once this I dare boldly affirme let any Papist disproue it if he can that the Church is no where in all the Scripture taken for one companie through the world in respect of any outward gouernment or dependance which is the foundation of all your doctrine touching the Church but in regard of the common meanes of saluation by faith in Christ And here I might
well make an end of answering to this treatise because I haue ouerthrowne the maine strength of your discourse and discouered to all men that will not be wilfully blind the weaknesse of your reason but for the better satisfaction of the vnlearned I will follow you from Chapter to Chapter that the truth may the more easily be discerned A. D. CHAP. XI That the Church whose doctrine must be to vs the rule of faith must alwayes continue without interruption from Christ his time till the worlds end A. W. That there alwayes hath bene since the beginning of the world excepting perhaps the time betwixt the fall of our first parents and their faith in the Messiah that there is and alwaies shal be a Church viz. certaine men that are predestinate to life and actually beleeue in Iesus Christ it neuer came into any of our minds to be doubted of that there should be such a companie as you conceipt all the Papists in the world cannot proue A. D. §. 1. Considering what hath bene proued in the former Chapter about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope no Christian will deny but that so long as this Church doth continue we haue of it a sure pillar and a firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleef For either a man must deny that euer our Sauiour did make any such promise gaue such charge and commission left any such warrant set forth such a commaundement or thundred out any such threats as before is rehearsed which were to denie the Scriptures which scriptures are generally receiued by all Christians no otherwise then as they are the vndoubted word of God or else he must wrest the interpretation thereof both from that which the words of themselues naturally yeeld and also from the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world or else he shall be forced to confesse that which not I but Saint Paul hath said Ecclesia est columna firmamentum veritatis the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Onely it may perchance seeme to some of those that doe at this day oppose themselues against the authority of the Church that this was true for Saint Pauls time and perhaps for some three foure fiue or six hundred yeares after but not to be presumed vpon in latter times and namely when Luther began his reformation as they tearme it or now adaies A. W. Considering how weake your proofes haue bene as in the former Chapters so namely in the last about the infallible authoritie of the doctrine of the true Church I hope there is no reasonable man not only no Christian that will build his faith and saluation vpon so tottering a pillar and so slipperie a foundation But because you seeme to dote so much vpon your last Chapter I wil once againe be content to examine the substance of it as it is here repeated by you with some litle alteration Either we must denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted threatned or we must falsely interprete the scriptures or else we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our faith But we neither may denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commaunded threatned neither may we falsely interpret the Scriptures Therefore we must grant that the authoritie of the Church is a sure pillar and firme foundation whereupon we may safely build our beleefe First in general for your whole syllogisme if the cōclusion you intend were no other thē that you pretēd propoūd that the Church is the pillar groūd of truth as S. Paul saith there would be no question in this matter betwixt vs. For we haue learned to acknowledge the truth of all and euerie part of the scripture But the beginning of this Chapter sheweth that you meane by the Churches being the pillar and ground of truth that we may safely build our beleefe vpon the Churches authority which as I prooued in my answer to that Chapter is no part of the Apostles meaning In this sense must we take your conclusion Secondly in particular I denie your Maior because your disiunction is naught presuming a necessitie where there is none For neither we need to denie that our Sauiour hath so promised charged warranted commanded threatned neither is there any cause why we should falsely interprete the Scriptures and yet we haue no reason to grant that our faith may safely be built vpon the authoritie of the Church No such thing as I haue shewed can follow vpon the words of scripture alledged by you Therefore we need not denie the promises charge warrant commandement or threatning of our Sauiour or else grant the Church such an vnlimited authority Neither will the true sense of those Scriptures either enforce or beare any such illation or conclusion touching the infallible authoritie of the Church And whereas you thinke to face out the matter with naming the common sense and vnderstanding either of all or the most learned and almost of the vnlearned also of the whole Christian world my answer propounding the iudgement of many excellently learned and ancient writers of those places prooueth that to be but a vaine popish brag without all likelihood of truth especially since you that spare not to heape vp testimonies of Fathers when they are needlesse and to quote their bookes and chapters sometimes for a bare phrase alledge not so much as the name of any one author for the proofe of your interpretation of twelue seuerall places of scripture Your proffered seruice in helping vs with this distinction hath more shew of kindnesse then good meaning For it is not brought in to confirme our answer but to giue your selfe occasion of vttering that which you are taught to vrge for proofe of this question But we neither need your aide and haue good cause to suspect your fauours In a word your distinction is such as none of vs euer brought or would bring to answer those places of scripture We confesse that whatsoeuer was promised to the Church in those texts was promised for continuance to the end of the world but we say that the first promise was not concerning the Churches not erring the three last are particular to the Apostles at least for such a measure of teaching But what should I repeat that which was deliuered in the verie last Chapter The thing you harpe vpon though vntunably is that your Romish church or rather the Church of the East West were indeed the pillar and ground of truth for the space of some 600. yeares after Christ but afterwards fell away from that soundnesse of doctrine which before it had cleaued vnto Such a matter there is acknowledged by our Diuines yet no man saith either that the Church erred not in any point during that
is vnpossible because God doth not reueale this point to men neither are they able to iudge who are truly iustified and sanctified and who are not Secondly the question is whether the catholicke Church spokē off in the Creed can be discerned by the same bodily sight or no we say it cannot because it containeth none but the elect you say it can because it consisteth of all them that make profession of christian Religion vnder the absolute gouernment of the Pope of Rome The onely true meanes to make a full end of this controuersie is to shew what the Church is of which the Creed the Scriptures speak so many and so glorious matters This point you haue not once touched but either ignorantly or craftily concealed that difference betwixt vs and alledge that for the definition of the Church which if it were true as it is euidently false yet is but one priuiledge of the Church and expresseth not the nature of it But let vs leaue these matters and consider what it is that according to your former discourse you are to prooue Now that is say I that there alwaies hath bene since our Sauiours comming is and shall be to the end of the world a companie of men famous and visible in the world so that all men at all times may discerne that they are the true Church of Iesus Christ. For that I may in part vse your owne words as they follow in this chapter if at any time it could not be knowen then the men that liued in that time wanted necessarie meanes whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith and consequently whereby they might come to saluation Giue me leaue to apply that to all men which you speake of all times If there euer were are or shall be any men to whose sight the Church was not so visible that they might discerne and know it then those men wanted necessary means whereby they might attaine to saluation which if it were so say you how is it vniuersally true which is vniuersally said in Scripture God would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the truth Do you not perceiue that your reason necessarily requireth to haue it prooued that the Church is visible as at all times so to all men For if it faile in either of these respects your consequence will follow that some men haue wanted necessarie meanes of saluation and so God would not haue all men saued Therefore you propound the question verie insufficiently when you say We inquire whether the Church at any time be inuisible so that no man can see those men c. For though at all times some men may see and know it yet vnlesse all men at all times may you haue prooued nothing to purpose in this whole Treatise A. D. §. 2. In which matter my Assertion is that the Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore cited do speake must alwaies be visible This I prooue first by that plaine Prophesie of Isaias in the 61. Chapter Which Chapter to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church we may gather out of Saint Luke where our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter and expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe The words of the Prophesie are these Foedus perpetuum feriam eis scietur in gentibus semen eorum Omnes qui viderint eos cognoscentillos quoniam isti sunt semen cui benedixit Dominus I will make a perpetuall couenant or league with them and their seede shall be knowen among Nations all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seede which our Lord hath blessed How could he more plainely haue foretolde the visiblenesse of the Church The places of Scripture afore cited speake not all alike some of them concerne the Apostles onely and that not onely as they are a companie but as they are seuerall teachers authorised by our Sauiour Christ with so high and absolute a commission some belong to all true christians as well seuerally considered one by one as taken iointly all together Some appertaine to all Ministers some reach to all professors of the truth of the gospell How then can you truly say that the true Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore recited doe speake must alwaies be visible The Apostles haue not bene visible these 1500 yeares The elect that is the Church built vpon a rocke neuer was nor euer shall be visible in this world All Ministers were not nor can be visible to all men All professors neither are the true Church of Christ nor can by any meanes possible be seene of all mē as one church but with the eies of the mind Particulars are subiect to sense but vniuersals are discerned onely by vnderstanding Your assertion then is false but we will take it as it is set downe by you supposing that those places of Scripture speake of the Church in generall Yet we may not forget that the second point must needs be added concerning all men and so your assertion must be this The true Church of Christ must alwaies be visible to all men liuing To make way to your argument out of this prophesie you go about to prooue that the Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ his Church your proofe lieth thus Our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe Therefore that Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church This consequent doth not follow vpon that Antecedent First because the whole chapter may be written of our Sauiour himselfe and yet not of his Church also Secondly because some part of it may be of our Sauiour and yet not those words you alledge For who is he that knoweth not that one and the same Chapter often times conteineth diuers prophesies belonging to diuers matters and parties But though your proofe be naught your opinion is true For those words that whole chapter concerne our Sauiour and his Church Let vs see how you reason If our Sauiour promise to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church and that their seede shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed then the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing But our Sauiour hath promised to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church that their seed shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed Therefore the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing I denie the consequence of your Maior Though our Sauiuiour made such a promise and indeed hath and doth daily performe it yet it doth not follow thereupon that the Church must alwaies be visible to all men Shall the promise
of our Sauiour faile if the Church at some time be not apparent to all men Take heed we giue not the Atheists of the world occasion to say that his promise was neuer fulfilled because the Church was neuer knowen to all men liuing at any one time The Lord by this prophecie foretelleth the enlarging of the Church amongst the Gentiles not the visiblenesse of it at all times to all men But the couenant y you will say is perpetuall True that is saith your glosse not as the old Testament to which the new hath succeeded and therefore he expoundeth the perpetuall couenant to be the eternall Gospell which shall neuer be abolished for anie other as the ceremoniall Law was by the sacrifice of our Sauiour Christ An other of your Glosses calleth it a perpetuall couenant because it shall be certainly performed applying to that purpose the place of Matthew Heauen and Earth shall passe but one iot or title of the Law shall not passe till all things be fulfilled The other clause is as little to your purpose The Prophet saith not that all men at all times shall or may see the Church but that all which shall see it shall know it Neither is that sight an outward beholding of those men that are members of the Church but a discerning spirit giuen by God to them whom he hath appointed to euerlasting life by faith in Christ For if we strictly presse the words who seeth not that this promise hath failed since there haue bene many in all ages yea in our Sauiours owne daies who for all his powerfull miracles diuine doctrine and vnspotted conuersation acknowledged neither his Church nor himselfe Say not they might haue done For that is not the question The Propher saith All that see them shall know them not may know them Your ordinarie glosse applieth this to the Apostles and their followers or those that imitate their workes So doth Vatablus expound them their workes And Lyra more particularly sheweth what works are meant They saith Lyra that shal see them distinguished from other men by their miraculous and powerfull works wherein the Apostles and other their successors excelled the common people and yet excell them in many things Now the Apostles themselues for all their many and strange miracles might haue bene and had bene vnknowen I will not say to many men but to many nations and the farre greatest part of the world if they had not according to their commission trauelled from place to place and so into diuers countries brought the first tidings of themselues How can it be then that at all times since the death of the Apostles the Church hath bene visible to all men seeing there hath bene neither charge nor warrant nor practise of any such vniuersall ministerie If any man had rather vnderstand this Prophecie of the knowledge that the vnbeleeuers haue of the Church the meaning is that the Lord will bestow such graces of Sanctification vpon his children that euen their verie enemies amongst whom they liue shall be driuen to acknowledge them for the people of God But what is this to the visiblenesse of the Church to all men at all times A. D. §. 3. Secondly our Sauiour hath ordained this his Church to be the light of the world according as he saith Vos estis lux mundi you are the light of the world and to be a rule or meanes by which all men at all times may come to the knowledge of that One infallible entire faith which is necessarie to saluation as hath bene prooued But how can it be the light of the world if it selfe be inuisible Nemo accendit lucernam ponit eam sub modio No man lighteth a candle and when he hath done setteth it vnder a bushell where it cannot be seene And how can it be a meanes by which at all times the infallible truth may be made knowen to all sorts of men if it selfe at any time could not be knowen of men Or if you say that sometimes it could neither be knowen it selfe nor be a meanes by which the true faith might be made knowen then sith that I prooued that it is a necessarie meanes and so necessarie that without it according to the ordinarie course there is not sufficient meanes prouided by Almightie God to instruct all men infallibly in all points of faith Then I say men that liued at that time wanted necessarie meanes whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith and consequenly whereby they might come to saluation Which if it were so how is it vniuersally true which is vniuersally said in Scripture Deus vult omnes homines saluos fieri ad agnitionem veritatis venire God would haue men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the truth For how can he be said to haue a true will to saue all men If he haue not at all times prouided meanes sufficient wherby all men may come to the knowledge of true faith and thereby by degrees to saluation Sith especially he hath power to prouide these meanes and knoweth that without these means prouided it is vnpossible for men to attaine true faith and eternall saluation For knowing it vnpossible he cannot be said to will it sith no wise man willeth that which he knoweth perfectly to be altogether vnpossible and much lesse may Almightie God be said to will any thing which is absolutely vnpossible considering that his wisedome is infinite and that his will is alwaies ioyned with some worke or effect by which worke or effect that which he willeth at least is made possible to be done VVherefore to verifie that Almightie God would haue all men saued we must needs say that he hath prouided for all men these meanes which be necessarie and without which it is vnpossible for them to come to the knowledge of true faith and thereby to saluation One of which meanes is a visible Church of which they must heare and learne the true faith which is the first and a necessarie step to saluation The Church therefore must needs be alwaies visible This your second reason is thus to be framed If the Church be not visible to all men at all times then it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world and a rule or means by which all men at all times may come to faith and saluation But it is ordained by our Sauiour to be such a light and such a rule or meanes Therefore it is visible to all men at all times That I may be the more easily vnderstood by the ordinarie Reader I wil apply my answer to the course that you haue takē in setting downe your reason where in the first place we haue your minor and one proofe of it another followeth after your proposition and there shall be examined Concerning your Assumption I say it is false The Church
is not ordained to be such a light rule and meanes To your proofe touching the light I answer with diuers of the auncient that our Sauior speaketh to and of the Apostles not of the Church in succession from time to time All the Apostles saith Chrysostome are the light to whō he said Ye are the light of the world These were the light of the eyes of the two testaments the Law and the Gospel For they by the light of our Lord enlightened for vs the old and new testaments He that reproueth those things that are done secretly is the light quoth Theophylact. For all that maketh any thing manifest is light But they the Apostles enlightned not one nation but the world So doth Austin somtimes expound it So Ierom Hilary Remigius Lucas Brugensis a learned Papist not onely applieth this text to the Apostles but also affoords vs a second answer You are that is saith he you must be or ought to be the light of the world that you may carry the light of the Gospel into the world he set round about with darknesse And thus in a manner do Austin and Hilary expound it But let vs vnderstand it of all teachers that they are the light of the world as indeed they are in a certaine proportion What then Will it follow hereupon that therefore the Church is at all times visible to al men The Apostles themselues whom this doth especially concerne were not so For many thousands in the world died after the generall commission giuen to the Apostles before it was any way possible for them to take any knowledge of such Preachers or of the Gospell Your great Cardinall Bellarmine will needs haue the place expounded not of the Apostles doctrine but of their conuersation which is not so easie and readie to be knowne as their preaching was Tertullian applieth it to the behauiour of all Christians Why hath our Lord saith he compared vs to a light and a hill if we shine not in the midst of the darknes if we hold not vp our heads in the middle of them that lie drowned But out of question this holinesse of true Christians is not alwayes visible to all men neither can it belong to your Church the members whereof may be vtterly void of true faith and loue saue onely in the outward profession Take it how you will for doctrine or manners or both you are neuer a whit the nearer If I would presse the words I could say that our Sauiour requires no more in this place of the light but that it giue light to all them that are in the house that is to all in the Church or at the most to them that are neare neighbours thereunto For what candle is there so bright that the light of it can be seene ouer all the world What though our Sauiour call his Apostles the light of the world doth he meaue that they all ioyntly together considered as a companie are so or that euery one of them seuerally is the light of the world If you will haue it spoken of them as the Church and else it cannot serue your turne to proue the perpetuall visiblenesse of the Church I doubt how you will be able to shew that they were the light of the world For they did not enlighten the world by any ioynt act of them all together but by their seuerall preaching in seuerall places Neither did they perswade men to beleeue because they were such or such a company but euery one of them taught the doctrine of the Gospell and was of himselfe without relation to all or any of the rest the light of the world in that part where it pleased God to blesse his labours to the begetting of faith If you say that euery one of them was the light of the world as doubtlesse euery one was then will it not follow that because the Church is the light of the world therefore it must be at all times visible to all men For neuer any one of the Apostles was so no nor all of them as I said before many thousands being taken out of the world after the Apostles began to preach ere they could possibly haue any glimpse of such a light To conclude the Apostles were and the Ministers in some sort now are the light of the world because by their preaching it pleaseth Almightie God to open the eyes of worldly men that they may turne from darknes to light and from the power of Satan to God that they may receiue forgiuenesse of sinnes and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith in Christ not as if any or all these must at all times be visible to all men but that there may be meanes for the saluation of those whom the Lord of his infinite loue hath chosen out of the world to be heires of his endlesse glory By all men we may vnderstand either euery particular man or all sorts of mē If you wold proue that which you vndertake you must meane euery particular man as I haue shewed in answering the fifth Chapter and as it is apparent in this afterward where you repeate that which before you had deliuered concerning Gods will to haue euery man saued one and other But I know not how in the proofe of your proposition you seeme to expound all men by all sorts of men How can it be a meanes say you by which at all times the infallible truth may be made knowne to all sorts of men if it selfe at any time could not be knowne of men In this sense if I should grant your whole fyllogisme yet would the point in question remaine still vnproued For the Church may be ordained for the light of the world and for a rule or means whereby all sorts of men may come to faith and saluation and yet at no time be visible to euery particular man To speake more plaine your proposition may be vnderstood two seueral ways first thus that all men shall be taken in the one part of it namely in the antecedent or former part for euery particular man in the other for all sorts of men If it be thus vnderstood I say the consequence is naught Secondly those words All men may haue the same signification in both parts of the proposition yet in two diuers senses For they may be taken either for Al sorts of men and then as I haue shewed the syllogisme proueth not that which is in question or for euery particular man in which sense onely I allow of the proposition as true and to the purpose It had bin better therefore that you had spared the proofe of it especially vnlesse you could haue done it better The light which is not put vnder a bushel is not the church but the apostles He teacheth them saith Theophylact to endure the trial and to haue great care of their conuersation as they
on whom al men gaze Thinke not therefore saith our Sauiour that ye shal lie hid in a corner Ye shal be the light of the world and therefore see that you liue vnblameably and become not an offence to other men Who can gather from hence the consequence of your proposition If the Church be not visible to all men at all times it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world Your second proofe concerning the rule and meanes is no lesse insufficient If the Church at any time could not be knowne of men you must needs meane of euery particular man if you will speake to the purpose it cannot at all times be a meanes by which the truth may be knowne to all sorts of men This is the consequence I denied before either brought by you for a new proofe or repeated idly within 3. or 4. lines after it was first deliuered Here you returne to your minor and to proue the latter part of it propound the second time your maine reason answered at large in the fifth Chapter It would be tedious and losse of time and labour to repeate all that was then said I wil therfore content my selfe to draw it into forme as it lieth and to denie the false propositions without any more adoe vnlesse I meete with somewhat by the way which was not in your former discourse Thus you reason If the Church be not ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or meanes by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation then some men at some time haue wanted one necessary meanes to that purpose But no man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes to that purpose Therefore the Church is ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or means by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation I denie your Assumption which you endeuour to proue in this sort If any man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes then it is not vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth But it is vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth Therefore no man at any time hath wanted any necessarie meanes Againe I denie your minor referring the Reader for the true sense of that Scripture to my answer in the fift Chapter The proofe of your consequence about which you labor like a man that claps plaister vpon plaister on a sound place is altogether needlesse and not worth the examining saue onely that in the last clause thereof you confidently harp vpon the former string which soundeth nothing but the necessitie of a visible Church to saluation But the Apostle where he sheweth what is of necessitie to faith neither mentioneth nor any way implieth a visible Church but only requireth a sending of some to preach and that may be from God immediatly not by succession in and by men Did not our Sauiour Christs preaching bring many to faith in him and so to saluation Did not Peter conuert 3000. at one Sermon Did not the Apostle Paul plant many Churches Was any of these a visible Church or did the people to whom they preached either seeke to them as to a visible Church or beleeue that they deliuered because they were sent by a visible Church It is true that no man ordinarily can beleeue vnlesse he heare no man can heare vnlesse there be one to preach to him no man can preach vnlesse he be sent But what is all this to the necessitie of a visible Church Looke through the whole history of the new Testament and see how many examples you can finde of any that were but so much as occasioned to beleeue by the meanes of a visible Church The same of our Sauiours miracles drew many to the hearing of him not the knowledge of any visible Church Cornelius a deuout man and one that feared God liuing neare to the places where the Gospell was preached was not moued by the visible Church but by a vision from heauen to send for Peter that he might heare and beleeue I might shew the like in diuers other examples that the Apostles were faine seuerally to go from place to place to preach the Gospell and not to stay till the fame of them or a visible Church should moue people to enquire after them I denie not that occasion may be giuen to men to hearken after the Gospell by reason of some visible Church whereof they may by diuers meanes haue vnderstanding but that it is vnpossible for men to come to the knowledge of true faith and hereby to saluation without a visible Church or that a visible Church is alwayes the first step to saluation though sometimes it may be the first occasion of hearing and beleeuing A. D. §. 4. Thirdly if the vniuersall Church of Christ should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue For if it did outwardly professe how should it not by this profession be made visible and knowne But if the vniuersall Church should for such a time faile to professe the faith hell gates contrarie to Christs promise did mightily preuaile against it For were it not a mightie preuailing that the whole Church should faile in a thing so necessarie to saluation as we know outward profession of faith to be necessarie both by that of our Sauiour Qui negauerit me coram hominibus ego negabo illum coram Patre meo He that shall denie me before men I wil denie him before my Father And Qui me erubuerit sermones meos hunc Filius hominis erubescet He that shal be ashamed of me and of my words him the Sonne of man wil be ashamed of And by that of S. Paule Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore fit confessio ad salutem With heart we beleeue to iustice with mouth we confesse to saluation Which place learned men interprete to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation and they say further that this sometimes is so oft as either the glorie of God or the profite of our neighbour doth of necessitie require it the which cases of necessitie do happen verie often and great maruell it were or rather vnpossible that they should neuer haue happened for so long a time as the Protestants would haue their Church to haue beene inuisible A. W. If the vniuersall Church of Christ say you should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue But it may not for any space cease to professe that faith Therefore it may not for any space of time be inuisible To omit that fancie that there is one such vniuersall Church of
Christ vpon earth whereof hereafter when I come to speake of the Catholicke Church I denie the consequence of your proposition For it is possible that al the Churches in the world should gloriously professe the true faith and yet many thousands be vtterly ignorant that there are any such Churches Was not your Church of Rome which hath bene famous enough for outward state altogether vnknowne at the least a long time in the Indies and America till within these 100. yeares or thereabouts And yet do you aske If it did outwardly professe how it should not by this profession be made visible and knowne Hath not the kingdome of China if we beleeue the report of your Iesuites and other Friers bene a mightie and rich estate many hundred yeares and yet not heard of till of late in most parts of Christendome If you reply that the Churches must needs be knowne to them amongst or neare whom they are I answer that this proueth not their visibilitie to all men at all times no nor to them in the midst of whom they dwell vnlesse the Churches be setled in some outward peace that the members thereof may freely shew themselues Your minor is false it may come to passe that the Church may cease for a space to make open profession of that faith which in hart it doth beleeue else how could Eliah liuing in the kingdom of Israel haue bene ignorant that there were 7000. true worshippers of God in that countrey Your proofe is insufficient If it might come to passe say you that the Church should cease to professe outwardly then should the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But the gates of hell shal not mightily preuaile against it contrary to his promise Therefore it may not come to passe that the Church should cease so to professe The consequence of your maior is too weake Our Sauiours promise is neither to the whole Church considered as a companie ioyntly together but to euery true beleeuer as I shewed before nor concerning outward profession against which Peter the head of the Church as you dreame grieuously sinned but of continuing ioyned to Iesus Christ as the head by a true iustifying faith resting on him for saluation In which estate Peter alwayes was preserued by our Sauiour though the diuel preuailed against him to the deniall of his Lord and Master for feate of death But let vs see your proofe If outward profession be a thing necessary to saluation then if the church faile in that the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But outward profession is a thing necessary to saluation Therfore if the Church faile in outward profession the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise I denie your minor Such outward profession as you meane is not necessary to saluation For the better clearing whereof we must a little examine what it is for a thing to be necessary to saluation then what profession may be counted necessary For the former that is necessary to the saluation of a man without which he cannot possibly be saued Now these things are either simply necessarie so that the absence of them shuts a man out of heauen or necessarie onely in some sort Simply necessarie on mans part for in that sense we speake now of things necessarie are acknowledgement of sinne faith in Iesus Christ and repentance wheresoeuer any of these is wanting there is no possibilitie of saluation so long as they are wanting Other things there are onely so far necessarie as that the contempt or neglect of them baâ—s a man of saluation Such are the Sacraments and outward profession both in generall by becoming a member of some true visible Church and in particular by witnessing the truth as oft as the Lord shall minister iust occasion Concerning this latter kinde of things necessarie we are to know that if we truly repent our contempt and neglect of these duties and beleeue in Iesus Christ there is mercie for vs with God though for want of oportunitie we can neuer come to the performance of them Touching the latter point of outward profession it is as I signified ere while of two sorts either a ioyning of our selues to some Church professing true Religion or a bearing witnesse of the truth of God which we professe To this latter especially belong the two former places of Scripture alledged by you To the former that text which you set in the last place as it shal appeare by and by You will aske me perchance whether of these two is the profession you speake of Surely to speake plainly and properly neither of them For it is a conceit of your owne deuising without any authoritie or warrant of Scripture and namely of those places you bring for proofe of it yet may it in some sort be referred to the latter as being a meanes whereby we may auouch the truth of God whereof we are professors So then the answer is first that no kinde of outward profession is simply necessary to saluation as if the absence of it were in it selfe damnable though the contempt or neglect of the dutie not repented of brings certaine damnation Secondly that it is not necessary to saluation either simply or in any sort that a whole Church should at all times make open profession to the world of that Religion which they hold and secretly practise This is that outward profession which is meant in your minor by which conceit you shut out of heauen all Churches that is all assemblies of the faithfull which at any time haue for borne to cast themselues wilfully into the mouthes of the bloud-thirstie and rauening persecutors by proclaiming openly their faith in Christ It is too true that an ouer-great zeale of martyrdome caried some men now and then farther then they should haue gone to the endangering and losing of their liues But it is as true that our Sauiour his Apostles and the Churches from time to time haue beene carefull to hide themselues from the sight of Tyrants when the Gospell was persecuted as farre as their callings and other occasions would giue them leaue Indeede they they neuer would neither is it lawfull denie the truth of God or themselues to be professors of it if they were called in question for it yet did they conceale as much as they could from the persecutors their times and places of meeting and also the seuerall members of their Churches To denie Christ or the truth of his religion is alwaies damnable and without repentance bringeth damnation vnauoideably not to make publicke profession of religion is not alwaies so but then onely when the Lord by some speciall occasion according to the generall dutie of a Christian or a mans particular calling thrusteth or draweth him foorth to giue testimonie to the truth by maintaining it or suffering for it Which your selfe also afterward acknowledge by
Scripture warrant to preserue life without denying their faith in the Lord Iesus or refraining to performe true worship to him though they did it secretly And thus much of your argument A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the Church were not visible we could not fulfill that commaundement of our Sauiour wherein he said Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church For how can wee tell the Church any thing if we cannot tell where to seeke it neither if we did by chance meete it could we know it to be the Church A. W. If the Church say you be not visible to al men at all times then can we not tell the Church according to our Sauiours commaundement But we must tell the Church according to his commaundement Therefore the Church must be visible to all men at all times That I may answer directly and plainly to your Syllogisme I must vnderstand what you meane by Church and we The Church may signifie in this place either the whole companie of the faithfull or seuerally euerie particular congregation which yet properly is not the Church but a Church So may the other word We be taken for All men whatsoeuer or onely for such as make profession of Religion Taking Church in the former sense I denie the consequence of your Maior We must fulfill that commaundement of our Sauiour though the whole companie of the faithfull be not at all visible For the charge is not to tell the whole company but the seuerall Churches whereof we are members I haue shewed this before I wil onely put you in mind of a learned Papists exposition formerly alledged We are not willed saith Brugensis to tell the vniuersall Church spread ouer the earth but that particular Church to which euery man is subiect and wherein he liues If by we you meane none but professors of Religion as our Sauiour Christ doth and as Brugensis and all other interpreters vnderstand it then howsoeuer you take the Church for the whole companie or the seuerall congregations I denie your consequence in that respect also The faithfull may tell their particular Churches whereof they are members though the Church be not visible to all men at all times It is enough if euery man know his owne Church to which he belongeth though he know not of any other in the world Your minor is vtterly false if as you must needs do according to that you intend you meane either all men or the whole Church For as I said before our Sauiours charge is neither to all men but only to Professors of Religion nor concerning the whole Church but particular congregations And so your fourth reason proouing the visibilitie of the Church at all times to all men by our Sauiours commaundement to tell the Church is of as small force as the former It is sufficient as I noted ere while for the fulfilling of this charge that euerie man know the Church of which himselfe is a member and which he is to tell and in this sort the Churches are alwayes visible A. D. §. 6. Fiftly it is certaine that once the true Church of Christ was visible to wit when it first began in Ierusalem in the Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ and that companie which by their preaching was conuerted to the faith But there can no reason be shewed why it should be visible then and not now If it were needfull to be visible then because otherwise it could not be a Church that is A Societie of men lincked together in the profession of one faith in the vse of the same Sacraments vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastours for the same reason it must needs be visible now because as in the last Chapter is prooued there must be a Church now and therefore it must be a societie of men professing the same faith vsing the same Sacraments liuing vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastours For all this pertaineth to the verie essence of the Church If also it were needfull to be visible then that those offices and functiōs which must be done in the Church might be wel performed to wit as there were in the Church some Pastors some sheepe as Saint Gregory Nazianzene saith some to commaund some to obey some to teach some to be taught some to feed the flocke of Christ some to be fed so that euerie one of these might do what pertained properly to his dutie it was needfull that the Pastors must know their sheepe and the sheepe their Pastours and that those that should teach and rule and minister the Sacraments must see and know them whom they were to teach and rule and to whom they were to giue the Sacraments And on the contrarie side the other had need to haue knowen those of whom they must be taught whom they must obey from whom they were to receiue the wholsome food of the holy Sacraments If I say this reason prooue that it was needfull then that the Church should be visible and knowen for the same reason it will be also needfull to say that the Church must be visible now and at all times For at all times there must be Pastours and sheepe in the Church being the sheepefold of Christ And at all times these Pastours must gouerne instruct and minister the holy Sacraments and the other must receiue gouernement instruction and the foode of the holy Sacraments at their hands And consequently there had need be some visible tokens at all times by which the Pastours may know their sheepe lest for want of this knowledge they may vnawares Dare sanctū canibus proijcere margaritas ante porcos Giue that which is holy to dogs and cast margarites before hogs which our Sauiour commandeth them not to do And on the other side there had need be some visible markes by which the sheepe may know and discerne their lawfull Pastors and true preachers from false teachers and intruding vsurpers For otherwise they could not tell whom to heare obey and whom to repaire to for the Sacraments and contrarie whom to take heed of as of false Prophets whose voice to neglect as of strangers and whose poisoned food of polluted Sacraments to reiect no lesse then a baite laid to kill them by theeues and robbers as it importeth greatly euery one to do If lastly it were needfull to be visible then that those which were out of it might ioyne themselues vnto it and become members of it thereby to participate the graces and benedictions which Christ our Lord communicated onely to it and to escape the deluge of eternall damnation wherewith all was sure to be drowned that were found out of it as it were out of another Noe his Arke this reason also requireth and vrgeth that the Church must be visible now and at all other times For if at any time it were not visible how could men that were out of it come vnto it Or how could they attaine saluation if they
did not enter into it Sith at all times the merits and fruits of Christs passion are inclosed in it and the means of saluation and to escape eternall damnation are onely found in it The Church therefore is visible at all times For at all times that prophecy of Isaias must be true wherein our Lord speaketh thus to the Church Aperiētur portae tuae iugiter die ac nocte non claudentur vt afferatur ad te fortitudo gentium reges earū adducantur Gens enim regnū quod non seruierit tibi peribit Thy gates shal be cōtinually opened day night they shall not be shut that the strength of nations the kings therof may be brought vnto thee for the nation kingdome which shal not serue thee shall perish A. W. This is your fift argument wherein you haue wasted more paper then in all the former Let vs see if your paines be not to as little purpose If the true Church say you was once visible you should adde to all men and no reason can be shewed why it should be so then and not now then it is so now But the true Church was once visible and no reason can be shewed why it should be so then and not now Therefore the true Church is now visible Who denies this conclusion or what do you get by it The question is whether the Church of Christ be alwayes visible to all men or no. You conclude that it is now visible speaking neither of all men nor of all times in which two points the whole controuersie betwixt vs lieth saue that we also denie that there is any such one Church as you fondly suppose without any shew of proofe But that I may let nothing passe which is worth the answering I will apply this argument of yours as directly to the question as I can To speake plaine to euery mans vnderstanding the doubt is whether there be not at all times some one companie of Christians or other that maketh publicke profession of religion so that all men whatsoeuer and wheresoeuer may take notice of them as the true Church of Christ or no. In this question we differ from you in two points First we say that there neuer was any such companie in the world that could be knowne to all men Secondly we adde farther that euery true Church may be so opprest and driuen into a corner that it can be discerned by none but the members of it and yet may continue in the practise of religion by the ministery of the word sacraments and censures Now then I thus frame your reason for proofe of the question If at any time there were a company of mē visible to all the world and no reason can be shewed why there should at that time be such a companie and not at all other times also then there hath bene alwayes is now and shall be for euer such a companie visible to all men But there was once such a companie visible to all men and no reason can be shewed why there should be at any time and not at all times Therefore there alwayes hath bene is and shal be such a company visible to all men I denie the consequence of your maior though there had bin sometime such a company and no man were able to shew sufficient reason why there should be such a companie then and not alwayes yet I say it doth not follow that therefore there must at all times be such a companie The ground of my deniall is that God hath not reuealed to men the reason of all his decrees and actions Your Pope himselfe as presumptuous as he is I thinke dares not vndertake to declare or determine why many things fall out which we see dayly come to passe I presume all this while that you denie this possibilitie of giuing a reason to men onely not to God also for else your minor wil want little of blasphemie Your minor hath two parts and it is false in both For neither was the Church as you speake in the Apostles time visible to all men and there may be some reason why though it had bin so then yet it should not continue so alwayes Of the former I haue said enough heretofore and it is a conceit without truth or likelihood that all the world might take knowledge of the Church when it began in Ierusalem For the other point though I might stand vpon it and put you to proue that there can no reason be giuen yet will I endeuour for your better satisfaction if it may be to shew some reasons why it must needs be visible in the beginning yet was it not then visible to all mē and need not be so at all times But first let vs examine your proofe I will propound your reason in a syllogisme and then answer to it If the Church were in the Apostles time to be visible 1. because otherwise it could not be a Church 2. the offices and functions of the Church could not else be well performed 3. else men could not ioyne themselues vnto it and these reasons why it should be visible still continue then no reason can be shewed why it should then be visible and not alwayes But it was then to be visible for those reasons and they alwayes continue Therefore no reason can be shewed why it should then be so visible and not alwayes I do purposely omit the former part of the Assumption that the Church was visible to all men because I spake sufficiently of it before and it wil but hinder the examining of this syllogisme To which that I may answer orderly and plainly I deny the consequence of the maior Although these three had bin some of the reasons whether they be or no we will consider in the Assumption why the Church at the first must needs be visible and these reasons still continue yet would it not follow that then no reason can be shewed why it should be visible then and not so alwayes For there may and shall be other reasons giuen of the necessitie of visibilitie in those times Your minor also is false Neuer a one of the three alledged by you is any necessary reason of the Churches visibilitie in the Apostles times as shal appeare in the handling of them Wherein first I must speake a word or two of the definition of the Church as it is propounded in this place In the whole course of your treatise as I haue noted in my answer here and there you meane by the Church nothing else but your Clergie or rather your Bb. assembled together in a generall Councell Here belike vpon better aduice you are content to allow the people also for parts of the Church But to let that passe the first fault in your definition is that you fancie to your selfe one visible vniuersall Church consisting of all such as you account true Christians throughout the world whereas you are not
able to bring any place of Scripture in which the holy Ghost so speaketh of the church I deny not that all Christians agreeing in one profession may in some sort be said to be of one church but that the Church whereof the Scripture speaks and of which we therefore must speake if we will speake to any purpose is to be conceiued as any one such societie The same word the same sacraments the same kind of gouerners may be in diuers churches and yet not all these be one societie We may imagine the like in common wealths or kingdomes that seuerall states may haue the same kind of lawes customes and magistrates and yet not be all one kingdome or common wealth Your second fault is that vndertaking to define the true church you content your selfe with the same faith and the same sacraments whereas no company nor man can be of that church but they that hold the true faith of Christ and the right vse of the sacraments The third thing I will obserue is rather by way of explication then of refutation you require the gouernment of lawfull pastors as a thing essentiall to the church If you speake of that church to which our Sauiour makes those goodly promises in the Gospell it may be for a time without such gouerners the promises themselues not concerning the whole bodie in respect of their lawfull Pastors but euery particular in regard of his faith in Iesus Christ And indeed howsoeuer it be true that to the being of a Church as it is commonly taken it is necessary that there be both a pastor and a people yet a people depriued of their pastors by what meanes soeuer and hauing no dependance vpon any other congregation doth not cease to be such a Church as our Sauiour promiseth to protect from spiritual and bodily enemies yea a people so destitute hath power to chuse a pastor for themselues and therefore are still in some sort a Church because that power is no where out of a Church but is appropriated to the companies of beleeuers who make seueral Churches though not properly and fully Churches for want of lawfull gouerners In the last place I may not omit to note your craft in adding to your definition of the Church the gouernment of lawfull Pastors as if you would haue the ignorant imagine that there were certaine Pastors who had some ioynt gouernment of the Church for example perhaps your Pope and his Councell of Cardinals or a Councel of Bishops assembled by his authoritie and gouerned by his direction In this sense we vtterly denie that any gouernment of Pastors is necessary to the being of a Church though we gladly embrace the helpes of Synodall prouinciall nationall and generall Councels All true Churches properly so called are gouerned by their seuerall Pastors but this makes them not one church as long as there are not more or at the least one gouerner cōmō to thē al. This the learned of your side discerning though you cannot or wil not see it neuer define the Church without relation to one generall pastor the Pope of Rome As for the seuerall pastors be they neuer so lawful they do no more make their congregations one Church in respect of their gouernment then the Companies of London because they are gouerned by their Maister and Wardens seuerally make one bodie without respect of their common subiection to the Lord Mayor of that citie You wil then perhaps demand of me whether the Church be not a meere sound onely hauing nothing truly answerable thereunto indeed I answer to this question that the Church is more then a meere sound and hath a thing in nature truly answerable to the name and that in two respects For the Church may be taken for the whole multitude of them that in all places of the world professe the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in this sense it containes all saue the Iewes and the heathen Secondly the Church truly and properly is the companie of the elect that are called to true faith in Iesus Christ More particularly it signifieth such of the elect beleeuers as are liuing in the world And this is that Church to which those glorious and comfortable promises of our Sauiour do appertaine though there be also some promises of outward blessings which are common to all Churches and professors of Christian Religion Now these elect thus called are truly a Church because they are a companie linked together in the sound profession of the same true faith and members of the same mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ vnder the gouernment of the holy Ghost his Vicegerent I do not take vpon me exactly to define the Church but onely to shew in grosse what is necessary to the being of it nor perhaps all that but the especiall point where in you haue failed which is subiection to one and the same Lieutenant and Soueraigne not to diuers of the like kind seuerally as your definition seemeth to require But of this matter enough Now I answer to your minor that there was no necessitie of the Churches visibilitie that it might be such a societie as you imagine For there haue bin and easily may be such societies which may be and haue bin hid from all the world saue those of their owne companie Consider I pray what should hinder this Is it not possible for a companie of men to professe the same religion but other men must needs be priue to that their profession It is like enough that such a company growing to a great multitude and ordinarily holding the exercises of their Religion will in time be discouered as it fell out with the true Christians in the late persecution vnder Queene Marie But this proueth not that therefore there cannot be any such societie but the world must needs take knowledge of it Could your detestable traitors band them selues together in that monstrous plot of treason and murder by gunpowder yea and assemble so often and worke so hard in the diuels seruice without being descried and cannot God by his prouidence keepe his seruants meeting together for his worship but that Satan shall certainly discouer them It is more then manifest how long or short a while soeuer they may keepe themselues vnknowne that they may be such a companie and not by and by be knowne The second point in the first part of your minor is this and thus concluded If the Pastors were to know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastors and this could not be vnlesse the Church were visible then was this one reason of the Churches being visible But the Pastors were to know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastors and this could not be vnlesse the Church were visible Therefore this is one reason of the Churches being visible I may graunt you the whole Syllogisme in the termes it is propounded by you and yet neither I lose nor you get any thing For there is no more concluded by it but
that the church must be visible to the members of it the Pastor must know the sheepe and the sheepe the Pastor Which of vs euer denied this visibilitie or what is this to proue that the Church in the beginning of the Gospell was to be famously visible in the eies of all the world In a word then to your propositions seuerally you must adde to your maior one of these two clauses either to the members of it signifying that the Pastors and sheepe could not know one another vnlesse the Church were then visible to the members of it or to all men meaning that there could not be such mutuall knowledge betwixt the Pastor and the sheepe vnles the church were visible to all men In the former sense your proposition is true but altogether wide from the marke you ayme at In the latter you shoote right but a great deale ouer For though your consequence by this meanes wil proue true and to the purpose yet your minor wil be ouerlarge and your question stil remaine vnproued For it is ridiculous to imagine not onely to affirme that the Pastor and flocke cannot know each other except all the world know them too Why may not the like be said of the husband and the wife the father and the children the maister and the seruants May there not be gouerning and obeying but where all men see these actions performed But I dwell too long vpon so cleare a matter Onely I was desirous to suite my answer somewhat like to your argument for the length of it lest shortnesse might make your followers thinke it not well answered We are now come to the third point of the former part which you conclude thus If men that were out of the church were to come into it for saluation and this could not be vnles it were visible then was this one reason of the visibilitie thereof But men out of it were to come into it for saluation and this could not be vnlesse it were visible Therefore this is one reason of the Churches visibilitie This is the onely argument of the three that hath any shew of reason in it and yet this also is far from any necessary proofe For if in your minor you meane that all and euery man was to come into the Church for saluation as if God had intended the saluation of euery particular man by the publishing of the Gospell your said minor is in that respect false For our Sauiour himselfe giueth his Father thankes that he had hid the mysteries of the Gospell euen there where it was publikly preached from the wise and men of vnderstanding and reuealed it to babes or simple men Yea he professeth that there was an especiall act of God his Father required to the drawing of men to beleefe euen there where himselfe preached most powerfully and that some only and not all were so drawne by God Neither doth the difference in this case proceed from man but from God lest that man which makes the difference betwixt himselfe and another should haue iust cause to boast as if he were more beholding to himselfe of whom he had the very act of being willing to be saued then to God who onely gaue him power to be willing Therefore your glorious and Angelicall D r. Thomas saith that there can no more reason be giuen why God intendeth the saluation of this man and not of that man then why the Mason layeth this stone aboue and that below each of them hauing a like fitnesse to each place But if by men you vnderstand those men that were chosen of God to euerlasting life to whom onely the preaching of the Gospell was effectuall to true faith and saluation then I denie your minor in regard of the latter part also For there was no necessitie of the visibilitie of the Church to that purpose as if God could not otherwise haue procured that they should beleeue and be saued I adde farther that the meanes which it pleased God to vse for the conuerting of those that were then to be saued and ordinarily for publishing the glad tidings of the Gospell was not the visiblenesse of the Church but the preaching of his Apostles So that as I signified before the greatest natiōs of the world embraced the Gospell of Iesus Christ not because they saw some visible Church to which they might adioyne themselues but for the euidence of the truth which some one man or other preached to them without any reference or respect to any visible Church whatsoeuer The dissoluing of the visible Church at Ierusalem was the occasion of preaching the Gospell through the world Hauing thus examined your seuerall proofes I returne now to your principal assumption for the farther confuting wherof I must shew that there may be some reason giuen why it might please God to haue the Churches visible in the beginning and not alwayes To which purpose I must first intreate all men to vnderstand that I do not vndertake precisely to set downe the reasons why God wil haue his churches somtimes famously knowen sometimes hidden from the knowledge of the world For his counsels are vnsearchable and his wayes past finding out Farther I acknowledge in all truth and humblenesse that I hold the reuealed will of God for a sufficient reason of any thing which he doth will though I could in my ignorance obiect somthing against it which might affoord some cause of doubting With this protestation I say these might be some reasons First wheras the means of saluation had bin for a long time shut vp in the land of Iurie and in a manner made proper to the Iewes now the partition wall being broken downe the Gentiles also were to be receiued into the Couenant which to our reason at least could not conueniently haue bene done vnlesse the profession of the truth had bene famous and visible But when once by this meanes the sound of it was gone ouer the world there was no such necessitie of continuing visible Churches Secondly this visibilitie was at the first the more necessarie because otherwise the Iewes to whom first the Gospel appertained being dispersed in many nations could not so easily take knowledge of it now they haue iudged themselues vnworthie of it and the Lord hath giuen it to vs Gentiles Thirdly it was no small proofe of the truth of the Gospell and the power of God working by the ministery of the word that so great multitudes should so speedily be conuerted by so weake meanes there is not alwaies the like vse of the Churches visiblenesse Fourthly though the Lord in his mercie would haue the Gospell published to the world yet when it became generally abused to wantonnesse that mens eares itched after new doctrines and esteemed more of their owne deuises then of the true worship of God appointed by himselfe it pleased his maiestie to leaue men to their owne blindnesse and presumption reseruing to himselfe
a small companie here and there whom he kept as the 7000 in Elias time Lastly it was requisite that the prophecies in Paul and Iohn concerning Antichrist and his tyrannie and vniuersall Apostacie should be fulfilled which could not haue come to the iust height of extremitie if any Churches at least in those parts where Antichrist preuailed had continued visible These are a few of those reasons which in the blind iudgement of man not able to sound the depth of Gods secrets might be an occasion of making the Churches of Christ cease to be famous and of keeping the true professors shut vp in the wildernesse till the time appointed by God for Antichrists decay and ruine approached Yet did not the Lord all this time leaue himselfe and his truth without witnesse but from time to time stirred vp the spirits of his children to make the world search the Scriptures and discerne if they would that your Church of Rome so famous visible was corrupted with many errors and become the verie seat of Antichrist Thus I haue answered your fift reason in the conclusion whereof you adde a testimonie of Scripture to confirme the necessitie of the Churches perpetuall visiblenesse to all men If say you that prophecie of Esay Thy gates shall be continually open must at all times be true then the Church is visible at all times to all men But that Prophecie must be true at all times Therefore the Church is visible at all times to all men Though you ordinarily leaue out that clause of the Churches visiblenesse to all men yet I make bold to supply it because I am desirous to perswade my selfe that you doe so rather for shortnesse sake then in a craftie purpose to deceiue the Reader I denie the consequence of your Maior first because that prophecy may be alwaies true and yet the Church not alwaies visible For all prophecies in Scripture are alwaies true as being from God and yet doth it not follow hereupon that therefore whatsoeuer is prophecied must alwaies be true It was prophecied by God himselfe that the children of Israell should be seruants in Aegypt May I then say as you do If this prophecie must alwaies be true they must alwaies be seruants in Aegypt I trow not Prophecies are alwaies true but true onely according to the meaning of them that such or such things must be at the time and in the manner signified by them If you say your meaning is no more but that if that prophecie be true then the Church is alwaies visible to all men I answer that At all times was put in without cause and might as you see breed a question in your proposition Secondly taking your Maior in that sense I still denie the consequence of it For the gates of the Church may be open at all times yet all men neither see thē alwaies open nor know that there are any such gates or Church Might not the gates of Mexico or some Citie in the East Indies China or America be alwaies open and yet none in these westerne parts euer heare of any such Citie You will say perhaps that the Prophet by the gates being open signifieth the visibilitie of the Church It is not enough to say so vnlesse you prooue it too But that I may yeeld somewhat of my right in this case and not put you to your proofes in so hard a matter I answer with Austin speaking of such prophecies and promises that this place belongeth properly to the Church of the elect into which without any restraint many of the Gentiles do enter continually from day to day by their actuall beleeuing truly in Iesus Christ Which answer may the better appeare to be true if we consider that this promise is made to the Iewes whose Church-gates must alwaies stand opē to entertain the Gentiles coming vnto it But this can no way be true of the outward Church of the Iewes which then florished in Ierusalem was vtterly destroyed some fortie yeares after our Sauiours ascension Therefore it must belong to that remnant of Israel which is according to the election of grace Do not replie to this answer that the gates of this Church were alwaies open euen before our Sauiours coming For this Church in respect of the Gentiles had not a gate then but a little wicket which stood not alwaies open but was opened now and then vpon occasion when it pleased God to bring some one or other of the heathen extraordinarily to saluation by the acknowledging of the Messiah to come These gates are now haue bene this 1500 yeares and vpward shut vp against the Iewes as the Apostle lamentably coplaines not as some imagine because the visible Church was translated frō the Iewes to the Gentils which Paul would neuer so ambitiously haue affected as in respect of that To be contented to become Anathema that his countrimen might enioy the glorious smoke of such an outward priuiledge I speake in comparison of election to euerlasting life but for that the Lord would giue ouer his people the Iewes and not choose ordinarily out of them heires of his heauenly kingdome as before he had done We see and reioyce at the sight that the Lord of his great mercie calleth out some few from amongst that desperate multitude of the Iewes as before he did out of the Gentiles but the gates are now set open for the Gentiles and a small posterne for the Iewes But what if I should grant you that this prophecie may also be expounded of the outward profession of Religion must the Church then needs be visible at all times to all men The maine reason of the gates continuall standing open is signified by the Prophet to be this That the strength of the nations and their kings may come into the Church But this was long ago fulfilled by the iudgement of your owne writers The strength of the nations that is the most warlike nations saith Vatablus which saith he was fulfilled when the Romanes were added to the Church The opening of the gates Lyra referreth to Constantines time and therefore in his iudgement they were shut more then 300. yeares after Christ And so farre is he from once thinking on the visibilitie of the Church prophecied of in this place that he brings three other interpretations and not mentions your conceit The gates shall be open because saith Lyra Constantine commaunded that the Church gates should be opened which before were shut and that new Churches should be built This also may be expounded saith he of spirituall opening because the Church is alwaies open to receiue them that repent And because since Constantines time men began to flocke to the Church of Christ without feare The strength of the nations was brought because saith the same Author by the example of Constantine many Potentates and kings came to the faith of Christ The gates of the Church said
may also thus vnderstand it that Christ appeared to be the word and the truth and wisedome frō the beginning of the creatiō of the world to the last writing of the Apostles that is from Genesis to the Apostles books after which there are none of like authoritie or beleef Or thus that the Law and the Prophets continued till Iohn in whom the brightnesse of truth was The East was the Law the West Iohn the end of the Law Now onely the Church neither takes away the word and sense of this brightnesse nor addes any thing else as propheticall The place you bring lieth thus Euery doctrine professing it selfe to be truth when it is not truth either among the Gentiles or among the Barbarians is in some sort Antichrist going about to seduce as truth and to seuer vs from him that said I am the truth Therefore we must not giue eare to them which say Behold here is Christ but do not shew him in the Church which is full of brightnesse from the East to the West which is full of the true light which is the pillar and ground of truth in which whole Church the whole comming of the Sonne of man is Now the comming of the Sonne of man is before expounded by him to be the word of truth Doubtlesse if you had not taken this proofe vpon Bellarmines or some other mans credit you would neuer haue brought it to proue the visibilitie of the Church to all men at all times What saith Cyprian in the place alledged but that the Church is dispersed ouer the whole world Doth this proue that it is at all times visible to all men Or hath Cyprian any such purpose in that place Is not his whole drift to shew that there is but one Church because the truth they professe is but one The title of his booke is Of the vnitie of the Church The place you bring concludes that howsoeuer the beames are scattered or spread here and there yet the light is but one The Church that is true beleeuers were in this land in the dayes of persecutiō and is now in Spaine Italy and perhaps in Rome it selfe This proues not a perpetuall visibilitie What need we any other answer to this testimonie of Chrysostome then that which your owne exposition affoords vs Chrysostoms meaning is that the Church cannot be quite without light say you What thē Must it needs be visible then to al men The Moone is neuer wholy darkened no not in the greatest eclipse nor in the change but is alwayes in the one halfe light and yet he were mad that would conclude hereupon that therefore it may be seene at all times of all men Indeed Chrysostome speaketh of the continuance of the Church not of the visiblenesse thereof That may appeare by his saying that the Church hath her roote in heauen rather then in the earth This argues stabilitie not visibilitie And what Church hath rooting in heauen but onely the Church of the elect The Church saith Chrysostome in the same place is more honorable then heauen because heauen is made for it not it for heauen Is heauen made for any Church but that of the elect Besides it was not the visibility but the being of the Church against which those tyrants whom Chrysostome there mentioneth so mightily laboured which yet continued in despight of them all These and such like places of Austin shew the flourishing estate of the Churches in those times and conuince the Donatists against whom Augustine writ of wofull blindnesse who would see no church but their owne heretical assembly in a part of Africa But they neither were intended not can with any reason be applied to proue that the church is alwayes visible to all men The former of the two places as I shewed before is interpreted by the Fathers of the Apostles That the Apostles saith Ierome should not hide themselues for feare but freely shew themselues he teacheth them to preach boldly when he saith A citie set vpon an hill cannot be hid But let vs take it to be meant of the Church It must needs be a monstrous hill that can shew a citie set vpon it to the whole world A citie standing on a hill is the easier and the farther to be seene but there is no hill high enough to be seene ouer the whole world I would farther know whether euery particular Church be not a citie vpon an hill or no. And yet is no such Church to be seene of all men Concerning the latter place Austin worthily cals them blind that could not or rather as he truly saith would not see that great mountaine vpon which the Church then stood but would shut their eyes against the light that shined vpon them Yet who is so ignorant that he knowes not or so shamelesse that he will not cōfesse that there were many aliue at that very time which had no knowledge that there was any Church in the world But there neither were nor could be any such among the Donatists or other like heretickes who forsooke the Church to follow their owne fantasies The candle is the Minister or the word shining by his ministery the candlesticke is the particular Church where that ministery is if any liuing in or neare the place where such a candle burneth bright will not see the light of it he may well be called wilfully blind So may not they which are so far that the beames of the light cannot shine vnto them Now the summe of that which hath bene answered concerning the perpetuall continuance and visiblenesse of the church is this that the church to which that continuance is promised is the number of the elect and not any one outward companie of men succeeding one another in a famous and visible profession of Christian Religion Yea farther though we do not vndertake to affirme that there hath not bin at all times some one companie or other of true Christians knowne to them among whom they liued to be professors of the Gospell yet we doubt not to say that there can be no sufficient proofe brought out of the Scriptures that there must of necessitie be alwayes such a company as if our Sauior Christs promises to his church were not performed vnlesse the world might at all times perceiue where such a companie were to be found A. D. CHAP. XIII How we should discerne and know which is the true visible Church of Christ A. W. It may perhaps seeme needlesse that I should proceed any further in the confutation of this treatise because still the maine point that there is such a Church is presupposed and not proued But howsoeuer it be true that there is indeed no one visible church of Christ which may challenge or beare the name of the whole church yet it will be worth the doing to finde out the markes or signes by which we may discerne which congregation is a true church of Christ and which is not
Let vs therefore proceede in examining this discourse A. D. §. 1. Hitherto I haue shewed that the rule of faith which all men ought to seeke that by it they may learne true faith is the doctrine of the Church of Christ and that this Church doth continue and is alwayes visible that is to say such as may be found out and knowne Now the greatest question is sith there are diuers companies of them that beleeue in Christ euery one of which challenge to themselues the title of the true Church how euery man may come to know assuredly and in particular which companie is indeed the true visible Church of Christ whose doctrine we must in all points beleeue and follow To this question I answer that euery companie which hath the name of Christians or which challenge to themselues the name of the Church are not alwayes the true Church For of heretickes we may well say as S. Austin doth Non quia Ecclesiae Christi videntur habere nomen idcirco pertinent ad eius consecrationem They doe not therefore pertaine to the consecration of the Church of Christ because they seeme to carry the name of the Church of Christ. For as the same S. Austin saith in another place heretickes are onely whited ouer with the name of Christians when indeed Si haeretici sunt as Tertullian sayth Christiani esse non possunt If they be heretickes the cannot be true Christians The reason whereof the same Tertullian insinuateth to be because they follow not that faith which came from Christ to his Apostles and Disciples and which was deliuered by them from hand to hand to our forefathers and so to vs but they follow that faith which they chose to themselues of which election or choise the name of hereticke and heresie did arise A. W. Hitherto you haue laboured to proue the maior of your maine syllogisme propounded in your preface namely that the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commends vnto vs is to be held for the true faith What successe you haue had in this proofe let them say that haue compared your arguments and my answers together Now you are to proceed to the proofe of your maine assumption that they onely are the true Church which make profession of the Romane faith Your syllogisme is thus framed They onely are the true Church to whom the certaine marks by which the Church is to be knowne belong But they that professe the Romane faith are they to whom those markes belong Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are the true Church The proposition or maior of this Syllogisme is not exprest by you but necessarily implied in this thirteenth Chapter where you say that the way to discerne which is the true Church is first to set downe which be the certain marks whereby all men may easily know the Church The assumption or minor you endeuour to proue in the fiue Chapters following by a Syllogisme thus concluded They onely who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong But they that professe the Romane religion are they who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong Your proposition or maior is in the two next Chapters your assumption or minor in the sixteenth In handling the proposition first you labour to disproue the markes of a true church which we assigne and that in Chapt. 14. then you assay to propound and confirme other of your owne as we shall see hereafter if God will when we come to Chap. 15. Whereas you expound what you meane by a visible Church viz. such a one as may be found out and knowne you straighten the question and auow that which no man denieth For the question betwixt vs is not whether the Church may be found out or no but whether it be so visible and famous a congregation that it may at all times be knowne of all men If this be not that you should proue what will become of your grand reason that therefore there must alwayes be a knowne Church the doctrine whereof euery must rest vpon in all matters of faith because otherwise it cannot be vniuersally true that God will haue all men to be saued It is indeed a matter worth the enquiring which companies of them that professe Christian Religion are the true Churches of Christ For that all are not it is apparent by your Antichristian Synagogue and that all true Christians are bound as much as lieth in them to become members of some true church of Christ it is manifest because else they cannot ordinarily performe the duties of his true outward worship which are no where done but in his true churches If the choise of any doctrine not receiued from Christ be sufficient to make men heretickes and churches hereticall what may the world thinke of your synagogue which is not ashamed openly to professe that she holdeth many points of doctrine which haue not proofe out of the written word of God For whereas to shift off the matter you come in with deliuerie of I know not what from hand to hand by the Apostles and your forefathers who sees not that this conceit of yours both condemneth the Scriptures of insufficiencie and maketh the reports of men the rule of the true faith and openeth a wide gate to let in all deuices of mans corruption What auailes it to know that all doctrine is heresie which comes not from our Sauiour Christ if we must beleeue that all came from him which your Pope and his Councell tell vs they haue receiued by tradition why should we not rather hearken to your Occham who truly affirmed that heresy is an opinion chosen by a man contrary to the holy Scripture Surely there is great cause to suspect them of heresie who refuse to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture whatsoeuer they talke of tradition from the Apostles by their forefathers A. D. §. 2. The way therefore to discerne which is the true Church is irst to set downe which be the certaine markes by which all men may easily know the Church and then to examine to whom these markes doe agree The which that I may the better performe in the Chapter following here I thinke good first briefly to note what belongeth to the nature of a good and sufficient marke Note therefore that two things are required in euery sufficient marke The first is that it be not common to many but proper and onely agreeing to the thing whereof it is a marke As for example it is no good marke whereby to know any particular man to say he hath two hands or two eares because this is common to many and therefore no sufficient note or marke whereby one may be distinguished or knowne from all other But a marke whereby we may discerne
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
of the Church so that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainely know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it is not a good marke to know the true Church by But true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it Therefore true doctrine is no good marke to know the true Church by Your Minor is false in both parts of it First it is vntrue that true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church yea many a true Church may hold some errors and many an hereticall Church some truth onely the fundamentall points are necessarie to the being of a true Church Secondly though true doctrine be in the belly of the Church as indeed there is no true Church in which it is not yet is it not so shut vp in it as you imagine For it is first and principally in the Scriptures where it may be found without any such authoritie of the Church as you dreame of yea I haue shewed that the Apostles themselues did not beget faith in the hearts of them to whom they preached by any authoritie of the Church but by euidence of the truth it selfe which they taught Concerning your proofe from Austins authoritie I first answer that he expoundeth not that place according to the literal meaning of the Prophet who speaketh not of any belly of the Church but saith that those lewd men of whom he speaketh haue alwaies bene giuen to naughtinesse from their mothers wombe These wicked ones saith Vatablus haue gone astray euer since they came forth of the womb they they haue erred euer since they were borne Yea Austin himselfe as your Glosse saith sometimes expoundeth it otherwise then here God saith Austin foreknew sinners euen from the wombe as he said to Rebecca So doth Ierome also vnderstand it so Theodoret. But let vs take it as Saint Austin doth here mystically expound it what will you prooue by it That truth is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she deliuer it by her mouth There is no such word in him no such thing to be gathered out of him His conclusion is that therefore they which differ from the true Church in doctrine are in error which is certainly true concerning fundamentall points and verie probable in all other points whatsoeuer The other part of your Minor is that true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it For the disproouing whereof it shall be sufficient to call to minde that which I haue often answered concerning those who beleeued by the Apostles ministerie without any consideration or thought of their being sent by the true Church but onely being conuinced by the manifest truth of that which they deliuered concerning forgiuenesse of sinne by our Sauiour Iesus Christ Your proofe out of Austin is insufficient as it may appeare in this sort If Austin say that he should not beleeue the Gospell vnlesse he were mooued by the authoritie of the Church then true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it But Austin saith so Therefore true doctrine is so shut vp in the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it I denie the consequence of your Maior First because as Austin himselfe saith of Cyprian we are not bound by the authoritie of Austins iudgement as if his writings were Canonicall We do Cyprian no wrong saith Austin when we distinguish his writings whatsoeuer they be from the Canonicall authoritie of the diuine Scriptures And againe I take not Cyprians writings for Canonicall but consider of them according to the Canonicall and allow of that with his commendation which agreeth to Scripture but by his leaue refuse that which disagreeth from Scripture This minde carried Austin to other mens writings this minde he desired other men should carrie to his Secondly I denie the same consequence because Austin might be mooued by the authoritie of the Church to acknowledge the Gospell for true and yet without the same authoritie learne out of the Gospell so acknowledged which is true doctrine which false Concerning Austins testimonie first it is manifest that he deliuereth not a rule for all men to follow as if by should not beleeue he meant that a man ought not to beleeue the Gospell nor sheweth an impossibilitie of beleeuing it vnlesse a man be moued by the authoritie of the Church but at the most declareth that the authoritie of the Church preuailed with him so farre as to make him acknowledge the Gospell for true which else he had either not knowne or doubted of Secondly it is obserued according to the rest of his writings that the Latine word he vseth in the African dialect signifieth Had not beleeued so that the sense is I had not beleeued the Gospell as the truth of God if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me thereunto The first motiue was the authoritie that is the learning consent holinesse of so many worthie men as from time to time had held and did hold the Gospell to be the truth of God Vpon this ground Austin gaue himselfe to the studie of the Scriptures and by the euidence of truth deliuered in it discerned that it was the word of God according to the report and reputation commonly held of it This sense agreeth with Austins purpose who to refute the Manichees that tooke their master Manes for the Apostle of Christ thus reasoneth against them I beleeue not saith Austin that he is Christs Apostle and then demaundeth of the Manichee what course he would take to prooue it to him Perhaps saith he you will read the Gospell to me and assay to prooue Manichaeus person out of it But what if you should light vpon one that doth not yet beleeue the Gospell Then follow the words alledged by you I truly had not beleeued the Gospell if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me This is yet more cleare by that which Austin writeth afterward First saith he we beleeue that which yet we cannot discerne that being made stronger in faith we may attaine to the vnderstanding of that we do beleeue not men now but God himselfe confirming enlightening our minde within But howsoeuer we vnderstand it Austin speaketh not of true doctrine shut vp in the Church so that it cannot be knowne to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie which is the point in question but onely of acknowledging the Gospell to be the word
of God Now the same Church or partie which assureth vs that the Gospell is true may notwithstanding erre in the meaning of some points in it and a man may discerne these errours by the light which shineth in the Scriptures thus acknowledged First it is here confessed by your selfe that Austins speach is not of all fundamentall points of true doctrine but onely as I said of knowing the Scripture to be the word of God for so onely you reason out of it and thereby shew plainly to all that will see that it cannot prooue the matter for which you brought it Secondly you proceed farther to prooue the point by an other reason but faultie like the former If say you without the testimonie of the Church we could not haue bene infallibly sure that there is any Gospell at all nor haue knowne that the Gospels of Matthew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas then we cannot know true doctrine to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie of it But we could not haue knowne those things without the testimonie of the Church Therefore we cannot know true doctrine to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie of it A man that is so full of his compound syllogismes as you are might learne to make better consequences in his Maior then you commonly bring vs. Let vs grant you that we could not know that there is any Gospell or which is the Gospell without the testimonie of the Church All that will follow thereupon is this that we cannot know these two points of doctrine to be true without giuing credit to the testimonie of the Church Yea if I were disposed to trouble you I would yet farther denie your said consequence because though we cannot know these matters without the Churches testimonie yet we might know them without resting vpon the Churches authoritie For the testimonie of the Church may be had by the ministerie thereof without any such absolute authoritie of enioyning beleefe or giuing credit to that she affirmeth as an vndoubted truth This Minor as the former in this chapter consisteth of two parts and is false in both of them as I will shew particularly First you say that without the testimonie of the Church we could not haue bene infallibly sure that there is any Gospell Your meaning is that we could not haue knowne this certainely but by giuing credit to the report of the Church as a certaine truth First for the doctrine of the Gospell to saluation it hath bene had and may be had without any testimonie of the Church at all taking the testimonie of the Church as you do for the preaching of men publickly authorised to this dutie by a companie of men so qualified as you before describe your Church I shall need no better proofe then to put you in minde againe of those nations many and great who attained to faith and saluation by the teaching of the Apostles seuerally without any such argument of the Churches absolute authority Secondly taking the Gospell for the 4. bookes of the Euangelists I answer that there may be true faith true Churches without the knowledge of those bookes yea without the verie being of them as it is manifest by the former example many thousands being conuerted and many Churches setled without the knowledge and before the publishing or penning of them But to come to the verie point I answer further that it is a grosse absurditie to make men beleeue that there can be no certaine knowledge had that there is any Gospell but by giuing credit to the Church whereas no man can know that there is any such authoritie in the Church or any Church at all but by the authoritie of the Scripture It is more then ridiculous for me to beleeue that there is a companie of men infallibly taught of God which is the truth with authority to enioyne obedience to all men in whatsoeuer they will teach if I haue no better proofe of it then their owne word For since God hath indued man with reason it is both simplenesse and sinne for him to beleeue that which is vtterly against the light of reason if he haue no warrant from God so to do But warrant he can haue none to beleeue such a conceit of any company but from the scriptures as it is euident by your own course who make a place of scripture the ground of your whole disputation Therefore whereas you teach men first to know the Church and then by the Church the Scriptures we say this course is vtterly vnwarrantable hauing no foundation either in reason or reuelation Yea contrariwise we truly affirme that the Scripture must first be knowne at the least in that point of the authoritie of the Church and then the Church by the Scripture And this is Austins iudgement directly Let vs not heare saith he this I say this you say but let vs heare this saith the Lord. There are the Lords bookes to the authoritie of which both of vs consent both of vs giue credit both of vs yeeld obedience there let vs seek the Church there let vs discusse our question And afterward I will not haue the Church to be shewed by mens doctrines but by the Oracles of God And againe Let vs seeke the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures The like speeches are euerie where in that booke Whether we be schismaticks or you saith the same Austin let neither you nor me but Christ be asked that he may shew vs his Church But where shall we know what our Sauiour saith concerning his Church and how he would haue it knowne but in the Scriptures Yet I denie not that the ministerie of men is necessarie to giue notice that there are certaine bookes in which it hath pleased God to reueale the meanes of saluation to mankinde though I acknowledge not any authority in the Church whereby men should be bound to beleeue this their report when as yet they are ignorant that there is any such Church You will say then what shall we doe or how shall we know that there is any Gospell If you will giue me leaue I will shew you what course is to be takē When you vnderstand that there hath bin and is still an opinion that there are certaine bookes written by Gods authoritie and appointment to teach men the way to saluation do as any reasonable man would do in a matter of such importance Get the bookes reade and studie them with a true desire to see whether they be such as they are reported to be or no. And because thou knowest by nature that there is a God and that he onely is all-sufficient to discouer the truth of his owne purpose touching the estate of his creature call vpon him though in ignorance and weaknesse that it would please him to direct thee in this enquiry after the means of thy saluation
and reason we must beleeue the teaching of it in euery point Now it is most certaine that the spirit of the true visible Church is of God as out of holy Scripture hath bene most euidently prooued And therefore our onely care should be to seeke out those markes by which all men may know which particular companie of men is the true Church of Christ whose doctrine we neither need nor lawfully may examine and trie in doubtfull manner but must obediently and vndoubtfully in all points beleeue as the onely assured and infallible truth A. W. For the better strengthening of your minor you assay to make and answer an argument which our Diuines vse to alledge against it and this it is They that are willed in Scripture not to beleeue euery spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. But euery Christian is willed in Scripture not to beleeue euerie spirit but to trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. Therefore euery Christian may iudge whether euery particular point the Church holdeth be true or no. The Assumption of this Syllogisme we proue by that place of Iohn Dearly beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they are of God To this our proofe you answer two wayes First concerning the spirits to be tried then concerning them that are to make triall Of the former your answer is that this trying of spirits is onely meant of those spirits of which men may well doubt whether they be of God or no. First this answer cannot be warranted by the text which is generall Trie the spirits that is all spirits that come to preach vnto you if we apply it to the teachers rather then to the doctrine they deliuer And surely if the Apostle had meant as you expound him he would not haue said Trie the spirits but trie some of them Beleeue not euery spirit but trie those of which you may well doubt but he saith generally the spirits Secondly what may we imagine to be a cause of doubting If want of lawfull sending which is the great point you alwayes vrge either we must know the spirits we may doubt of to be vnlawfully sent and then by your doctrine we must vtterly reiect them without any farther triall or else the triall we are to make if we doubt is whether they be lawfully sent or no for till that appeare we may not heare them But our Apostle appointeth vs to make triall by their doctrine Thirdly the reason and end of this exhortation is that we might take heede of false Prophets and false Apostles which were crept into the Church Many false Prophets were stirred vp by the diuell faining that they had Apostolicall doctrine to deliuer Therefore saith Didymus the gift of discerning spirits is necessary Now these false apostles were not such as came without any calling for the diuell must needs haue knowne if he had bene then acquainted with your doctrine that it was not possible for him to preuaile by men not authorised by the Church but as the Apostle teacheth vs they were such as had gone frō amongst the true Christiās not by schisme in refusing communion with them so much as by heresie in departing from the truth of doctrine in maine points of religion Fourthly false teachers do so nearely resemble true and come many times with such shew of holinesse that a man cannot tell whom he should trust or suspect but as he findes his doctrine to be sutable or contrarie to the word of God Therefore Ferus a writer of your owne and one of no meane account vnderstandeth by spirit doctrine The Apostle warnes vs saith Ferus that we beleeue not euery spirit that is euery doctrine and perswasion To which purpose he alledgeth also that of Saint Paul Trie all things hold fast that which is good alledged by Thomas in the same matter To make this your answer the more likely you tell vs that when it is certaine that the spirit is of God we neither need nor ought doubtfully to examine or presumptuously to iudge of it as if we thought any such doubtfull or presumptuous course lawfull Yet in this case there is a difference to be obserued If we know the preacher to be sent of God in such sort as the Apostles were that he cannot erre then euery least doubt of that which he deliuereth is presumption and sinne But otherwise though it appeare to vs that he be authorised by God we may safely take liberty to examine whatsoeuer he teacheth without any presumption to iudge or needlesse doubting of that he deliuereth In a word if we heare such a man it is our dutie not to suspect his doctrine but where we haue some good apparence of Scripture for our suspicion In which case we are to search the word of God and to open our doubts to him that we may be satisfied If the matter be such as we cannot clearely prooue to be false by Scripture we are with all reuerence and humilitie to suspect our owne iudgement rather then his whom God hath appointed and authorised to be our teacher so farre must we be from presumption Your second exception is against them that are to trie the spirits who are not say you euerie simple or priuate man but the Pastors of the Church to whom the office of trying spirits doth appertaine as being put by God in his Church of purpose that we may not be carried away with euerie winde of doctrine That this exhortation belongeth to all Christians it may appeare by these reasons First we haue the like generall admonitions in other places of Scripture to all Christians not onely to Pastors and Doctors Beware of false Prophets saith our Sauiour to all men which come to you in sheeps cloathing Trie all things saith the Apostle and hold fast that which is good which latter place as before I noted is brought by Thomas of Aquin and Ferus to expound this text of Saint Iohn Secondly the whole Epistle is written to all in generall without any particular instruction or exhortation to this or that kinde of Christians as teachers learners masters seruants or such like Thirdly it is the course of the Apostles where they descend from generals to particulars to giue some speciall notice of that change by naming seuerally the estates to which they speake and not continuing onely the common titles of beloued or brethren as the Apostle in this place doth Fourthly himselfe professeth that his Epistle is written in generall to all men yea euen to young men and babes in Christ Neither doth he in this exhortation restraine his words to them that are teachers Fiftly if it be not lawfull for priuate men to trie the spirits then are they to receiue whatsoeuer is taught by any particular Doctor or Pastor and so be bound to beleeue meere
only to the true Church to professe one and the same faith c. But to be one is to professe one and the same faith c. Therefore to be one is a propertie belonging onely to the true Church I denie your maior professing one and the same faith is not proper onely to the Church but common to it with some false Churches which haue for a long time continued in one and the same heresie as the Mahometans aboue a thousand yeares the Arians aboue 1200. Secondly if this marke be proper to the Church onely then as long as heretickes continue in one and the same heresie I may conclude that they are a true Church But to make your proposition true you must say instead of one and the same faith one and the same true faith which is the marke we set vp to know the true Church by and the reason why the Church is said to be one There are saith Theodoret infinite and innumerable Churches in the Isles and in the Continent but generally all of them are made one by their agreement in true doctrine The Church is said to be one saith Ferus because of the vnitie of faith hope and charitie Your minor also is false vnlesse you adde true to professe one and the same true faith as the place wherō you ground your large exposition might haue taught you For our Sauiour did not pray that his Church might professe one and the same faith at aduenture as if he had not cared what it professed so it alwayes professed the same faith but that it might alwayes professe the true faith which he deliuered to his Apostles and taught by his spirit But indeed that prayer of our Sauiour was not made for any companie of outward professors but onely for those and particularly for euery one of them that attaine to true faith in him As for the prophane and reprobate what is it lesse then blasphemie to say that our Sauiour prayed that they might be one with him and his Father as they are one especially since in the same chapter hee denieth that he prayeth for the world and namely restraineth his prayer to them who by the ministery of the word beleeue in him that is rest wholy and onely vpon him not onely make profession of beleeuing the Gospell which is enough without any inward grace to make any man a member of your true Church Thus haue I spoken of this marke as you should haue propounded your argumēt according to the course of your disputation Now that I may leaue nothing of any moment vnanswered I will speake to it as it is set downe by your selfe The matter you assay to proue is that the Church is signified to be one or is one To proue this you alledge foure seuerall places of Scripture The first is this My Doue is one Where by Doue you vnderstand the Church by being one professing one faith c. To this I answer first that it is no good course of disputing to proue a matter in controuersie by a place that is figuratiue and allegoricall because such texts as Thomas saith affoord no certaine arguments yea as Austin saith it is impudencie for a man to expound any allegory to his purpose vnlesse he haue manifest testimonies for the clearing of that which is doubtfull Secondly this interpretation of yours is directly contrarie to Cardinall Bellarmine and by him refuted who makes this Doue to be the soule of a Christian in the state of perfectiō and deliuers it as a certaine ground that those things in the Canticles which are spoken of the Spouse are not necessary to be vnderstood of the Church but may also be expounded of the Virgin Marie or of euery perfect soule Thirdly if we take it to be spoken of the Church as it is generally and as I am perswaded truly expounded yet doth it not signifie any outward companie but the true Church of Christ the companie of the elect called to the knowledge and profession of the Gospell euery one of which is in his place and measure that perfect soule whom the spouse of Christ so commendeth Know saith Origen that the Bridegroome is Christ the Bride the Church without spot or wrinkle of which it is written that he might make it glorious c. And Ierome who translated that commentary of Origen saith that the church spoken of in the Canticles cleaueth and is ioyned to Christ aboue the heauens as being made one spirit with him So doth Epiphanius vnderstand the place affirming that the Church is perfect because she hath receiued from God grace and knowledge of our Sauiour Christ by the holy Ghost Bernard no enemy to your Church saith in plaine termes that the spouse is the Church of the elect which is said to be one because all together are the spouse of Iesus Christ one chast virgin The sheepfold our Sauiour speaketh of is the same spouse in respect of the spirituall feeding which the sheepe haue in this life from him or to speake more directly it seemes to be that state of grace into which the shepheard Christ leadeth his sheepe that they may be folded vp and safe frō all spirituall dangers which might destroy them Once that he meanes not an outward profession common to sheepe with goates it may appeare by the whole course of the Chapter before wherein all the sheep of that fold are not only said to be Christs sheepe but also to heare his voyce yea so to heare it that they will not hearken to a stranger His sheepe heare his voyce saith Austin and he cals them by name for he hath their names writen in the booke of life Hereupon saith the Apostle The Lord knoweth who are his This sheepfold then is that estate into which Christ the true Shepheard bringeth his elect by the profession of his truth in the visible Church If any man had rather apply this text to the outward estate of the Churches I will not striue with him so that withall he remember first that in these outward Churches the elect onely are the sheepe one with Christ their shepheard as members of his mystical bodie Secondly that this one sheepfold is not to be considered in regard of the Churches being one in profession but in respect of the Gentiles admitted to haue place in Christs mysticall body as well as the Iewes all difference betwixt people and people being taken away In the next two places the church is cōpared to a bodie note that the comparison is chiefly of particular Churches in respect of the seuerall members thereof because of the mutuall coniunction and helpe which each part hath with other and is to affoord to other So doth Lombard truly expound it so you Glosse so Lyra. If we stretch it farther the chiefe cause why the church is one bodie is assigned by Cardinal Caietan to be the
thy name prophecied and by thy name cast out diuels and by thy name done many great workes And then will I professe to them I neuer knew you depart from me ye that worke iniquitie But it is strange that you should make true inward sanctitie the marke of the true Church and so confidently affirme that no doubt in the Church there are alwaies some holy when as you maintaine that it is enough to make a man a true member of the true Church that he professe outwardly though he haue no one vertue within him at all If all the members of the Church may be void of holinesse how is holinesse a good marke of the Church Certainly it is at the most but accidentall and such as the Church may haue or lacke without being or ceasing to be a Church thereby He is well holpe vp no doubt that must learne how to know the true Church of such teachers You haue prooued after your fashion that the Church is holy now you will prooue that no companie but the Church is holy No sect of heretickes is truly holy All companies of Christians besides that of the true Church are sects of hereticks Therefore no companie of Christians besides that of the true Church is truly holy If by hereticks you vnderstand onely those that erre in some fundamentall points of religion I grant your Maior and Minor As for the conclusion I am resolued of the truth thereof without any proofe from you But if you acount all hereticks who in the error of their iudgement dissent from other Churches of Christ in matters not fundamentall though true I denie your said Maior and affirme that diuers Churches may differ in opinion one from another and continue in that difference maintaine it confidently so they do it not against their knowledge and conscience and yet all of them be true Churches of Christ and truly holy For as long as the opinions a man holds do not cut him off from being a true member of the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ they make him not cease to be a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified But he that beleeueth truly in Iesus Christ and holds no fundamentall error continues by faith a member of our Sauiours mysticall bodie For as the iust liues by faith so wheresoeuer there is true faith there is life also but there is no life out of the bodie of Christ because the spirit of Christ is not to be had but in his bodie And therefore he that by faith remaineth a member of Christs bodie is a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified though not perfectly holy Here we haue the proofe of your Maior such as it is If the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie be opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the rootes of true sanctitie then no sect of heresies is truly holy But the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie is opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the roots of true sanctitie Therefore no sect of hereticks is truly holy If by true Christian faith you meane any particular truth as a Christian ought to beleeue euerie truth of God though not so as that ignorance or misbeleeuing of euerie point can make him cease to be a true Christian I denie the consequence of your Maior I denie your Minor Not euerie heresie but that which is against the foundation onely is opposite to true Christian faith humility vnderstanding by Christian faith such a faith as is necessarily required that a man may be a true Christian by which onely he liues not by beleeuing euerie truth though that be required of him as a dutie of sanctification And so your proofe also is answered A man may haue that faith by which a Christian must liue though he be ignorant or misinstructed in diuers points of doctrine I haue seuered this part concerning humilitie from the former because it seemeth you tooke it to be of more importance and therefore labour more in the proofe of it He that doth not humble himselfe to euerie humane creature for Gods sake but proudly opposeth himselfe against the vniuersall Church cannot be holy But no hereticke doth so humble himselfe and euerie hereticke so oppose Therefore no hereticke can be holy I shewed before that there is no such vniuersall Church as you often name but neuer prooue and therefore this argument grounded vpon opposing against that which is not in regard of such a commaundement as God neuer gaue is idle and vaine More particularly I answer concerning your Maior that although pride be alwaies a sinne yet it may sometimes be found in in a man truly sanctified that in opposition against men in a matter of doctrine But your proposition in regard of the former part of it as you vnderstand it is vtterly false For it is no way against holinesse for a man not to beleeue euery doctrine that men will propound If I or an Angell from Heauen preach any otherwise to you then we haue preached let him be accursed Trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. As for that place of the Apostle which you alledge your owne interpreters expound it not of the Church but of the ciuill Magistrate He cals the office of a King a humane creature saith Caietan because a King is created by the voices or consent of men and he addeth euery that he might take away all distinction betwixt Heathen and Christian kings in respect of obedience to them The Rhemists are yet more against you So he calleth the temporall magistrate say they elected by the people or holding their soueraigntie by birth and carnall propagation ordained for the Worldly wealth power and prosperitie of the subiect to put a difference directly against your interpretation betwixt the humane superioritie and the spirituall Rulers and regiment guiding and gouerning the people to a higher end But what need we any other expositor since the Apostle in the next words directeth vs how to vnderstand it Whether it be vnto the King as vnto the superiour or vnto gouernours as vnto them that are sent of him for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well But let vs take it as generally as you will if it be against humilitie not to be subiect to the Church it is also against it not to be subiect to the King Yet I hope no man is so mad as to say that he refuseth to be subiect to him that doth not absolutely obey him in all things How then can this place proue that it is against true Christian humilitie not to beleeue the Church whatsoeuer she propound to be beleeued None but hereticks do so humble themselues and many dissenting from their brethren in diuers opinions neither deserue to be counted hereticks though they cannot be reclaimed from their errors nor to be held for schismaticks as long as they breake not off communion
the world A man may finde in the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ shal neuer faile but which outward companie of men is this true Church no man by this marke of future continuance can by any meanes discerne Wherupon I conclude that your Catholicknesse is neither for the name nor for the thing any good marke of any true Church whatsoeuer That by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time should be signified you presume but proue not and yet I am perswaded you are not able to alledge any one ancient author but late Papists that by the Catholicke Church vnderstands a companie that hath bin alwayes since the beginning of the Christian Church and shall alwayes continue till the second comming of our Sauiour Christ I doubt not that the true Church spoken of in the Scripture and the creed hath so bin and shall be but I say that no man conceiues this propertie to be signified by the word Catholicke The ground of my opinion is that hauing found diuers reasons alledged by the Fathers why the Church is said to be Catholicke I could neuer light vpon that concerning the time Austin ordinarily restraines Catholicknes to place as also Optatus doth Pacianus where he purposely enquires the reason of the name neuer once mentions it no more doth Cyril who yet assignes sixe seuerall respects in which the Church may be said to be Catholicke And surely if by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time be signified I see no reason neither I thinke can you shew me any why it should not as well include the time before our Sauiours comming and so the Church of God that then was as that which hath bin since his comming and shall continue till the end of the world So doth Thomas vnderstand the Catholicknesse of the Church stretching it from Abels time to the end of the world But your great maister Bellarmine vtterly denies that the Church before our Sauiours comming was Catholicke restraining this Catholicknesse to the Church of the Christians But because I acknowledge the truth of the doctrine I will not striue about the word though you should haue prooued the sense of the word and not haue giuen too much credit to Bellarmine who brings a place of Austin to prooue that vniuersalitie of time is required to make the Church Catholicke whereas there is not a syllable or a letter touching that matter in the place alledged No more is there in that other place of Bede which also he brings but rather we may proue thence that Catholicke belongeth to place It is therefore called Catholicke saith Bede because it is edified in one and the same faith ouer all parts of the world In the sentence next before he speaketh thus Whence the Church is called Catholicke hee teacheth saying All the Churches through all Iewry Galilee and Samaria had peace So doth your Canon expound Catholicke so Durand though he adde also two other reasons of the name but not that you bring As for the place you quote to prooue a needlesse question what doth it concerne the visible Church being spoken as Ierome sheweth at large and prooueth out of the Apostle of the Church of the elect Iewes or at the most of the elect in generall Before I examine that which you haue here deliuered touching the Catholicknes of the Church in respect of place I hold it very needfull to consider what was intended by the name Catholicke and how it hath bin vnderstood of auncient writers And because this latter point may be a meanes to giue vs some light for the discerning of the former I will begin with it in the first place Whether the word were in vse in the time of the Apostles or no so that any man was called a Catholicke Pacianus seems to stand in some doubt yet he lets it passe as granted that no man was then so called Once it is out of all doubt that it is no where in the Scriptures applied to any church or to any man or at all vsed As for the title Catholicke giuen to the Epistles of Iames Peter the first of Iohn and Iude it came not from the holy Ghost the inditer of those Epistles but was added afterwards by some man when the bookes of the new Testament were gathered together into one volume which may better appeare by the titles of the other Epistles also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. of Saint or holy Paul which inscription questionlesse neuer was of the Apostles owne setting downe That which I would haue obserued is that this name Catholicke was deuised and applied to the Church not by God in the Scriptures but by man and therefore it is of lesse importance and more vncertaintie yet no doubt not giuen at aduenture but vpon good ground and to good purpose For the original of it it is Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the whole or all which we commonly call by two Latin names vniuersall or generall so that the Catholicke Church and the generall or vniuersall Church are all one To auow the antiquitie of this title giuen to the church the confession of faith which is commonly called the Apostles creede may be alledged wherin we professe that we beleeue the holy Catholick Church That this creed is very ancient it is out of question but that it was penned or indited by the Apostles themselues we haue no certaine proofe But to leaue this point and to returne again to the meaning of the words Catholick Church the auncientest authors in whom I finde them for they are not in Dionysius Ignatius Martialis Polycarpus nor in Iustine Irenaeus Tertullian Origen or any man within the first 200. years are Clemens Alexandr about the yeare 200. and Cyprian about the yeare 250. After them it grew very common especially in the Latin Church Cyprian himselfe hath not that I know of any where deliuered the reason of that title Catholick But Pacianus Bishop of Barcelona in Spaine purposely disputeth the question against Symproniā a Nouatian heretick assigning two reasons of the name in this sort If saith he I must giue a reason of the word Catholicke and expresse the Greeke in Latine Catholicke is euery where one or as the learneder thinke obedience to all Gods commmandements so that by his interpretation the Catholicke Church must be the company of them who in all places here and there professe one faith and liue in obedience to all the commandements of God This vnitie of true faith the Emperors respected Valentinian Gratian and Theodosius when they commanded that all they should be called Catholicks who follow the faith that S. Peter deliuered to the Church of Rome To this purpose is that of Cyril where he saith The Church is called Catholicke because it teacheth all things necessary to be knowne This interpretation of the word and reason of the title the Donatists gaue saying that the
Church was not termed Catholicke because of the communion that one Church hath with another throughout the whole world but because it obserueth all the commandements and sacraments of God To make short the reason of the title Catholicke attributed to the Church in the iudgement both of Greek and Latin writers is first the vniuersall dispersion of the church through all part of the world The Church saith Cyril of Ierusalem is Catholick because it is spred all ouer the world It is called Catholicke saith Austin because it is dispersed through the whole world See brethren quoth the same Austin in another place how the vniuersality of the Church spred ouer the whole world is commended The Church saith he is called Catholick because it is vniuersally perfect and failes in nothing and is spred ouer the whole world Where though he seeme to acknowledge the Donatists interpretation yet he addes the other as more principall And in the conference betwixt the Catholiks and Donatists the true Christians proued themselues to be Catholicks and so rightly called because they held communion with the Church spred ouer the face of the earth This is that vnitie which accordingly was implied in the title of the Catholick Church signifying an agreement in matters of faith which was betwixt the seueral true Churches in all places Hitherto may we reasonably refer that of Pacianus who saith that Catholicke is euery where one The vnitie is signified in that so many seuerall congregations make but one church in regard of that one faith which is cōmon to all the vniuersalnesse of this church in the particular assemblies is noted to vs by the word Catholik The Fathers in the Nicene councell thought good to expresse that vnitie by professing to beleeue one Church to which they added also Catholicke So saith Alexander Patriarch of Alexandria who was in the time of that Councell We acknowledge one onely Catholicke and Apostolicke Church So Theodoret afterward There is one Church scattered ouer sea and land wherefore we pray saying For the holy and onely Catholicke and Apostolicke Church And in another place Paul saith he nameth many churches not by any diuision of spirit but seuered by distance of place It appeareth then that by Catholicknes the vniuersalnesse of the Churches being in all places is signified But what was the reason why this title was added to the church In all likelihood it was first deuised and applied to the Church to signifie the breach of the partition wall which sometimes stood betwixt the Iewes and Gentils till by our Sauiours death it was cast downe This I speake vpon this supposition that the word Catholicke was as ancient in the Church as the time of the Apostles But if it were brought in afterward as I could easily perswade my self but for reuerence of other mens iudgments we may verie wel assent to Pacianus who writes of it in this maner When after the Apostles times heresies sprung vp and men wēt about to pul in peeces the doue of God that same Queen the Church by diuersity of names as euery seueral heresie had a proper name did not the Apostolicke people they that followed the doctrine of the Apostles require a sirname for themselues whereby they might make difference of such as remained vncorrupted with heresie lest the error of some should rent in peeces the vnspotted virgin of God Was it not meet that the principall head the true Church should haue a proper name to be knowne by It appeareth by these words that the reason of the name Catholick was at the first that there might be a title to distinguish sound Christians and true Churches from hereticks hereticall assemblies To which purpose that he might auow the vse of this name he signifieth that it had before bene vsed by Cyprian And afterward he affirmeth directly that the true Christian people are diuided from the hereticall when they are called Catholicke But you will perhaps demaund why Catholicke should be applied to make this distinction The reason thereof as I thinke is this The Gospell by the preaching of the Apostles was spred farre neere ouer the face of the earth accordingly diuers Churches in diuers places established all which agreed in the vnitie of the same faith and doctrine But Sathan who is alwaies watching to sow cockle and darnell among the wheat stirred vp here and there certaine peruerse and trouble some men who set abroach errors to corrupt the truth of Doctrine Now these teachers being discouered that there might be a difference of name betwixt true Christians and them for the name of christian was common to both so that euerie man might learne by the verie name to auoid the heretickes it was thought meete by the learned and carefull gouernours of the seuerall Churches that hereticks should be called by some speciall name either of their author or of some point of error which they held and the true professors should haue the title of Catholicks because they maintained the truth of that doctrine which was generally professed by the Churches of God In this sense Pacianus saith that Christian was his name and Catholicke his sirname Hee that shall aduisedly consider the vse of the word in Cyprian shall perceiue that Catholicke is opposed by him to schisme and heresie and that said by him to be done against the Catholicke Church which is done contrarie to the practise of the seuerall Churches in all countries So Clemens saith that heresies labour to rend the Church in peeces and he calleth the Church Catholicke because of the vnitie of one faith generally receiued as may be gathered out of him though indeed the chiefe thing which he respecteth in the vnitie of the Church is that All the elect are made partakers of one and the same saluation according to the couenant of God which in all ages hath bene one and the same Wherin he seemes to apply the terme Catholicke to time but the reason of the name by the generall and constant iudgement of the ancient writers is rather the generality of the Church professing the same doctrine in all places Therefore your great Bishop Melchior Canus expounding this title saith that the Church is called Catholicke because in euery country people and nation sexe and condition it is spred farre and neere And by this difference saith he afterward it is distinguished not onely from the Synagogue or Iewish Church but also from the conuenticles of hereticks So doth your catechisme of Trent set out by Pius Quintus vnderstand Catholicke The Church is called Catholicke because it is spred in the light of one faith from the East to the West receiuing men of all sorts be they Soythians or Barbarians bond or free male or female Then followeth the vniuersalitie of time containing all the faithfull which haue bene from Adam euen till this day or shall be hereafter till the
end of the world professing the true faith and being built vpon Christ vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles If then we restraine the Catholicknesse of the Church to vniuersalitie of place wherein as we haue seene persons are also contained The Catholicke Church is nothing else but the companie of the elect taken now ordinarily not onely out of the Iewes as heretofore till the comming of our Sauiour but also out of all nations and people whatsoeuer If we stretch it farther to vniuersalitie of time also which can hardly be prooued out of the ancient writers it comprehendeth all the elect that haue bene are and shall be from the beginning of the world to the end thereof And thus much of the Catholicke Church concerning the meaning and reason of the word Now to your proofe as it lieth not by way of refutation but of explication We grant as I haue said often that the Church is common to all people and places not shut vp any longer within the land of Iewry nor appropriated to the Iews and we condemne them of error who teach as sometimes the Donatists Rogatians did that it is enclosed in Affrick or Europe or Asia or America or any of these and not common to euerie one of them aswell as to any of them But this is not so to be vnderstood as if the Church of Christ must needs be in all these or many of these at once in any one time It is enough that we acknowledge the vniuersality of it de iure thogh we denie it to be here or there de facto To speake plaine it belōgeth to the nature of the Church of Christ to haue all places open to it it is no more tied to Rome or Ierusalem then it is to London or Paris yea it hath spred it selfe ouer the face of the whole earth and hath bene or shall be in euerie particular countrie but this largenesse hath not bene nor perhaps shall be at any one time but by succession as it hath pleased God to affoord the meanes of the Gospell and giue a blessing to it sometimes in one place sometimes in an other as your selfe presently acknowledge But this doth not prooue that it is a marke to know the Church by This reason of the name Catholicke is a mere deuise of your owne and without warrant of antiquitie I say more it is false too vnderstanding it as you do not of the Church of the elect but of a companie of men making knowne profession of the true faith For in the beginning when the Church of Christ was as pure and as glorious as euer it was since it stretched not it selfe beyond the borders of Iewrie but was for a time shut vp within the walles of Ierusalem till the Lord by Herods persecution made way for it to passe into all the world From that time forward it grew mightily and setled it selfe in many countries yea it ceased not to multiply till the reuealing of Antichrist who by little and little corrupted the truth of doctrine euen in the fundamentall points and so destroyed the Church of God out of these parts of the world where it had florished some hundreds of yeares Yet was not the world left without a true Church no not in these westerne countries but such was the state of it as that it remained in a few chosen seruants of God who were hidden like those fifties in Israel from the eies of your rauenous wolues the bloudthirsty Cleargy of your Romish Synagogue Saint Austin in that booke you alledge had to do with the Donatists who insolently and wickedly rent themselues from the vnion of all the christian Churches then in the world allowing no other Church of Christ but that faction of their owne in a part of Africa They neither could nor did charge the Churches which they condemned with any grosse error in doctrine but confidently affirmed without all ground of truth or likelihood of reason that the Churches planted by the Apostles were vanished out of the world for supply whereof I know not by what miracle their Church forsooth sprung vp vpon a sodaine in that corner of Africa This ridiculous conceit of theirs Austin refuteth by shewing that the Church is to be sought and found in the Scriptures and not in the deuises and dreames of men Let vs not heare saith Austin this I say this you say but let vs heare this saith the Lord The Lords bookes are to be had to the authoritie whereof both of vs consent both giue credit both of vs obey There let vs seeke the Church there let vs trie our cause And a little after I will not haue the Church shewed me by mens deuises but by the Oracles of God And againe afterward when the hereticks expound the performance of the promise made to Abraham Thy seed shall be as the sand of the sea and as the Starres of heauen as if it had bene fulfilled in Donatus and his companie Austin answereth Reade vs this out of the Law out of the Prophets out of the Psalmes out of the Gospell it selfe out of the Apostles writings reade it and we beleeue it This foundation being laid in the fiue first chapters Austin proceedeth to prooue the vniuersalnesse of continuance of the Church out of the Scriptures out of the old Testament in the three next chapters out of the new in the test So that the argument you speake of beginneth at the sixt chapter the Maior or propositiō is in the first chapters to the sixt the Assumption or Minor in the other that follow But because you leaue those three chapters that shew what the Church should be out of the old Testament I will follow your course and begin at the ninth where Austin sheweth that the Church was to begin at Ierusalem and so to passe into Samaria and from thence to spread it selfe through the whole world To this he bringeth in the Donatists thus answering These things say they we beleeue and confesse that they are fulfilled but afterward the world fell away and onely Donatus companie remained VVhat doth Austin replie Let them reade this to vs saith Austin as they reade of Enoch of Noe of Abraham Isaac and Iacob and of the Tribes which remained the rest rending themselues away and of the twelue Apostles who continued faithfull when all other fell away These examples the Donatists had brought to countenāce their schisme Austin willeth them to prooue their stedfastnesse when all other Churches failed by the same Scriptures which were to beare witnesse of those whom they alledged He goeth forward to refute other arguments of theirs in the chapter following still pressing them with this that they should shew out of the Scriptures that the Church founded by the Apostles was to vanish away and their faction onely to remaine sincere This was his course and indeed what other course could he haue taken The hereticks as before I
haue noted did not accuse the Catholicks of any error against the foundation whereby they might prooue they had ceased to be of the Church but onely vrged verie absurdly a dreame of their owne that all but they of Donatus part were fallen away What is this to the question betwixt you and vs We shew euidence of Scripture to prooue that there was to be a defection that Antichrist the head of that defection is to be the chiefe gouernour of the Ecclesiasticall state that his seat is to be at Rome yea we manifestly conuince your Apostaticall Church of many and grosse heresies some of them directly ouerthrowing the foundation of our Sauiour Christs mediatorship for the whole punishment of all our sinnes and the loue of God in choosing vs to euerlasting life without respect of any thing on our part wherby we not he make difference of our selues from other that is we prooue that the doctrine of your Church is vtterly false in the maine points of predestination iustification without the true beleefe whereof there can hardly be any true religion because the greatest part of Gods glory which is the end of all religion is ouerthrowne or hidden by such errors as your Church maintaines in these matters of iustification and predestination But to the matter This generall ground of Austins disputation we acknowledge to be good and sound as for that which he addeth and you especially vrge I answer with Austins good leaue that the place he brings prooues not a continuall increase of the Church from time to time but onely that when the Apostle writ there had bene a good growth of the seed of the Gospell as among the Colossians so in the whole world And whereas he doth assay to prooue that there must be an increase of the Gospell till the end of the world because our Sauiour in the Parable saith that the good seed must grow till that time we craue leaue to dissent from him till it be prooued that the Parable is so to be vnderstood and that the Apostle so intended that speech of his For Parables Austin himselfe hath taught vs in this verie question against the Donatists that no man may apply any thing out of a Parable to prooue his purpose by vnlesse he can shew euident and cleare reason for his interpretation But this euidence seemes to be wanting in this exposition of the Parable For the scope of the Parable is not to prooue that the Church shall continually increase till the end of the world but to shew that in the outward congregations good and bad shall be alwaies mingled together and so doth Austin himselfe euery where expound the place And surely if from hence we may prooue such a continuall growth of the Church may we not from the same place conclude the like of heresies Let them both grow together vntill the haruest saith the text But what should I make many words about this Parable Our Sauiour himselfe expounds it afterward and makes no such collection of the Churches increase til the worlds end And Ierome willeth vs not to be ouer hastie to gesse at the meaning of the Parable because the expositiō of it in the text is deferred from the 13. verse to the 37. but to wait til our Sauiour giue vs the interpretatiō who hath giuen vs to vnderstand that the good seed are the children of the kingdome not as in the Apostle the Gospel how then are they all one Beside the Parable speaketh not of the outward Church that is of all professors all which are mēbers of your Church if they hold of your Pope but of the true Church indeed the elect of God called the children of the kingdome all the good seed saith our Sauiour are iust men and shall shine as the Sunne in the kingdome of their Father So shall not all your Church do many of your number by your owne confession being wicked and reprobate neither iust nor to haue any place in heauen But the decay of your owne Popish Church me thinketh should sufficiently refute this conceit The other place alledged to prooue that the propagation of the Gospell must increase till the end of the world is neither rightly vnderstood nor of any force to the matter in question To speake of the latter point in a word Let vs grant that by the end the end of the world is signified What of that Our Sauiour doth not say that the Church shall grow greater and greater till the end of the world but that the Gospell shall be preached in all places before the world haue an end so may it be though after it is once preached for some few yeares it be out of the world for many yeares together and afterward be againe begun and this may befall it oftentimes for all that prophecie Let vs further yeeld that it shall alwaies continue in the world as doubtlesse it shall yet is there not hereupon any such necessitie of this growth to be inferred For it may be preached in all places and yet lose more in one countrie then it getteth in three passing along with a small retinew from one land to another Now for the other point it is apparent that our Sauiour at the least in that former part of the Chapter prophecieth of the destruction of Ierusalem before which saith he the Gospell shall be preached through the whole world The end saith Chrysostome namely the end of Ierusalem And he prooueth that the Gospell was so preached by two places of Scripture the one whereof is that out of the Epistle to the Colossians Of the same opinion is Theophylact and your ordinarie Glosse and Lyra who vndertaketh to shew that the Gospell had bene preached in the three knowne parts of the world Africa Asia and Europe before Ierusalem was destroyed by Titus and Vespasian Iansenius Bishop of Gaunt disputeth the point and concludeth for all Austins authoritie and reasons that it seemeth we are rather to hold with Chrysostome that our Sauiour speaketh of the end of Ierusalem Which saith he is euidently gathered from this that after our Lord had said Then commeth the end he presently addeth when therefore you shall see the abhomination of desolation c. For the bringing in of this signifieth that he obserueth the order of things to come and teacheth what was to be done when the end whereof he spake should come All this part of your discourse to prooue that heresies are not Catholicke either from time or place might verie well haue bene spared For who ever imagined that error was before truth when as it is nothing else but a straying from the truth Yet haue some heresies bene of long continuance as Arianisme for a great while which was also so vniuersall for a time that as Ierome saith the world wondred at it selfe that it was become an Arian But what should I waste time and labour
did borrow the propagation of faith and seeds of doctrine I make bold to alter your translation let the skilfull Reader iudge whether I haue cause or no. But what of all these Tertullian doth not say that no Church is to be accounted Apostolicke but that which can without interruption shew her descent from the Apostles nor that euery Church is true that can make such proofe of her original But whereas the hereticks against whom he there dealeth reiected and receiued Scripture at their choise and would neuer leaue wrangling Tertullian appeales to the iudgement of those Churches which were knowne to be founded by the Apostles and in which the truth was most likely to be found As for your argument of succession you shall heare Tertullians iudgment of it Let hereticks saith Tertullian in the same book faine a succession from the Apostles they shall get nothing by it For their doctrine compared with that the Apostles taught by the diuersitie and contrarietie thereof will declare that it came not from any Apostle or Apostolicke man because as the Apostles would not teach contrary one to another so Apostolick men would not deliuer doctrine contrary to the Apostles vnlesse they were such as were fallen away from the Apostles to preach otherwise then they did So then the chiefe triall of a true Church is by the doctrine of the Apostles and their successors in the truth because it is possible for hereticks to shew their descent from the Apostles or some Churches which had their beginning from the Apostles or Apostolicke men Yea it is manifest that the greatest heresies as the foure maine ones condemned in the foure first generall Councels had their beginning of them who could shew their pedegree step by step from the Apostles in respect of outward succession We haue soone how weakly you haue proued that personall succession is a thing belonging to the true Church it remaines that you proue it to be proper to the church and not common to it with heretickes To which purpose you thus reason No vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for founder thereof Euery heresie is an vpstart noueltie contrary to the former faith of the Church Therefore no heresie can haue any Apostle or Apostolicke man for the founder thereof How much more truly and reasonably spake Tertullian of the like matter when he said that no Apostolicke man taught contrary to the Apostles vnlesse he were such a one as was fallen from the Apostles He saw and acknowledged that it was possible for a man instructed by the Apostles themselues to forsake the truth of doctrine and become an author or maintainer of heresie Doth not Saint Iohn speake of some who being bred vp in the church by heresie departed from it What should I name Hymenaeus Alexāder Phygellus Hermogenes Nicolas and such like Hardly can you name me any heresie that euer tooke rooting but the first plant of it sprung vp in the nursery of the Church Therefore your maior is altogether vntrue being vnderstood as it is of Apostolicke men in respect of personall succession not of succeeding the Apostles in truth of doctrine But you thinke to make good your proposition by Tertullians authoritie who challengeth the heretickes to shew the beginning of their Churches from some Apostolicke men Is it possible you should either write or reade that sentence of Tertullian and not perceiue that it cuts the very throate of your cause Doth not Tertullian in the sentence alledged by you directly confirme our opinion and ouerthrow yours Let them shew vs their beginning saith Tertullian from some Apostolicke man Is that enough I if we beleeue you who define Apostolicknes by personal succeeding the Apostles But what saith Tertullian He in plaine termes requires such an Apostolicke man as perseuered with the Apostles and forsooke them not Now that by this perseuering with the Apostles and not forsaking them he meanes agreement in doctrine I proue it euidently by that which followeth in the same Chapter First Tertullian shewes that it is in vaine for them to pleade succession in place if their doctrine be found contrary to that which the Apostles deliuered I set downe the sentence before Secondly he doubts not to say that by the hereticks disagreeing from the Apostles in doctrine those Churches which cannot proue themselues to be Apostolicke by naming any Apostle or Apostolicke man as the first founder of them may yet conuince them not to be Apostolicke and are themselues to be counted Apostolicke because of their consent in doctrine with the Apostles This is the summe of Tertullians words the words themselues run thus To this triall namely by doctrine as the next sentence before sheweth shall the hereticks be called by those Churches which though they cannot alledge any Apostle or Apostolicke man for their founder as being of late and now daily planted yet agreeing in the same doctrine are neuerthelesse counted Apostolicke by reason of their agreement in doctrine Do you not see that Tertullian disputeth for vs against your pretended succession That he confesseth heretickes may alledge personall succession That he acknowledgeth those Churches for true which cannot deriue their pedegree from the Apostles or any Apostolicke man That he maketh the truth of doctrine agreeing with the Apostles a certaine and necessarie marke of the true Church And are you not ashamed for all this to bring Tertullian for an author of so grosse an error VVere you so blinde that you discerned not this your selfe or did you so despise your Readers that you presumed they would neuer haue the wit to see your ignorance or craft It is now discouered sufficiently and yet this one point more must be added that Tertullian requireth this shew of their Churches beginning not of all heretickes as you deceitfully alledge him if you read him your selfe and tooke him not vpon credit at some other mans hands but onely of those who pleade their continuance from the time of the Apostles If any heresies saith Tertullian dare fetch their continuance from the Apostles time that therefore they may seeme Apostolicke because they were while the Apostles liued we may say let them shew the beginning of their Churches let them vnfould the succession of their Bishops c. With such learning and conscience doe you Papists alledge the Fathers that he must needes be honester and wiser then you that will not beleeue you vpon your bare word VVe see then that to be Apostolicke in your sense is no good marke of a true Church because Hereticall Churches may so be Apostolicke and true Churches not Apostolicke and contrariwise that to be Apostolicke in doctrine as we expound it is a most certaine note whereby a true Church may be knowne and the same that we onely allow of A. D. §. 7. It appeareth therefore plaine enough that these foure properties One Holy
their hands and consequently tying himselfe so to assist him and his successours with the guiding of the holy Ghost that they should alwaies propose vnto the flock of Christ which is his vniuersal Church the food of true faith and that they should neuer teach ex Cathedra any thing contrarie to true faith sith if he should not thus assist but should permit them to teach the Church errors in faith then the Church which he hath bound to heare this Pastor in all points might contrarie to his purpose erre nay should by him be bound to erre which without blasphemie cannot be said All Catholicke learnedmen therefore knowing this do acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of this chiefe Pastour either alone or at least with a generall Councell must needs be alwaies an vnfallible vndoubted truth and that therefore they may safely yea they must necessarily submit all their iudgements and opinions either in interpreting scripture or otherwise in matters concerning religion to the censure of this Apostolicke seat The which while they do as they must alwaies do if they will be accounted Catholicke men and will not cast out themselues or be cast out of the companie of Catholickes how is it possible that one should dissent from another in matters of faith or at least obstinately as hereticks do erre in anie point of Faith So that this difference may be assigned betwixt any sect of heretickes and the Romane Church that heretickes are a companie not vnited among themselues by any linke which is able to containe and continue them in vnitie of faith whereas the Romane Church is Plebs sacerdoti adunata grex Pastori suo adhaerens as S. Cyprian saith a Church should be a people ioyned to their Priest and a flocke cleauing to their Pastor whom whilst it heareth as it is alwaie bound to do it is vnpossible but that it should retaine the vnitie of faith like as on the contrary side according to the saying of Saint Cyprian Non aliunde haereses obortae sunt aut nata schismata quà m inde quòd sacerdoti Dei non obtemperatur nec vnus in Ecclesia ad tempus Sacerdos nec vnus iudex vice Christi cogitatur Not from any other roote haue heresies and schismes sprung vp but from this that men do not obey the Priest of God neither do they consider how that in the Church there is one Priest and one Iudge for the time in steed of Christ. A. W. In propounding these matters against vs of your proofe I will speake afterward there are a few things worthy obseruation that your dealing may be manifest to all men First you talke of the Protestants Church as if we like you fancied to our selues some one church beside which there should be none in the whole world whereas we acknowledge seuerall Churches in diuers countries to be entire in themselues without dependance of any one vpon any other Yet do we not denie that there is a certaine communion betwixt and among all true Churches which consists in their agreement in doctrine about all matters of the foundation and the mutuall helpes of prayer and of other Christians duties to be performed by one congregation to and for another In this respect there is one Church of Protestants and whatsoeuer company holdeth not the foundation is no true Church nor to be counted a member of the Protestants Church Secondly I would know why you require that our Church should be perfectly one since you mentioned no such matter in setting downe expounding the first propertie of the Church If you answer that to be one and to be perfectly one is all one I pray you remember that this terme perfectly should either haue bin put in before or bin left out now Otherwise seeing you neuer tell vs that it is all one whether a Church be one or perfectly one why shold we not make our aduantage of your words and presume that our Church is held by you to be one though it want somwhat of I know not what perfectiō imagined by you which yet you forget when you come to shew that your church is one Thirdly how doth this strange speech vniforme in dogmaticall points of faith agree with that plainnesse which you professe for instructing of the simple But in good earnest what meane you by dogmaticall points It had bin very fit you should haue vsed other termes or atleast haue expounded these for the vnderstāding of the ignorant But this dark speech makes more for you because it may perhaps affoord you some starting hole if you be hard driuen Yet a man may gesse at your meaning because when you come to proue that the Church of Rome is one you seeme to interprete dogmaticall points to be matters of faith defined by the Church If we take it in this sense I maruel how you can charge our Churches with variablenesse in this respect What one point was euer defined by the generall consent of our Churches which hath bin since altered by like consent If you can shew none as I may well presume you cannot till you do then are our Churches in dogmatical points of faith as perfectly one as yours so much bragged of Now to your argument which is thus to be concluded That Church which is variable according to the varietie of times and persons c. the learned men whereof are at iarre among themselues in matters of faith c. and haue no means to end their controuersies is not one But such is the Protestants Church Therefore the Protestants Church is not one I denie your maior varietie of opinions differences of learned men without meanes to end their controuersies do not proue any Church not to be one vnlesse the matters about which they differ be of the foundation so that the ignorance of them or error in them be in it selfe damnable To make my answer plaine I wil handle as shortly as I can the seuerall points of your proposition The Apostles disciples and other beleeuers in our Sauiours time were doubtlesse the true Church and so alwayes continued in generall though some of them haply fell away being the true Church they were also one by your owne confession yet did they not always hold the same dogmaticall points of faith but varied in matters of very great moment For a time yea all the time of our Sauiours Christs life till his ascension they beleeued that his kingdome was not onely spiritual but also of this world They were ignorant of that high point concerning his resurrection without which there is no iustification Yea after the descending of the holy Ghost vpon them they held it vnlawfull to impart the Gospell to the Gentiles Put case now that some of those who followed our Sauiour had continued in these opinions and that you had bin to giue sentence whether they their companie had bin the true church or the Apostles and people that claue to them
which we pleade not guiltie and looke to heare what euidence commeth against vs to proue the enditement But you rather like the foreman of the grand enquest then the plaintiffe that endites vs instead of prouing come in with I find that the Protestants Church is not perfectly one This will not serue the turne we must know how you finde it or at least be assured that you haue found it Who would not laugh at such an euidence But though you leaue the two former points to the credulousnesse of your Popish followers yet you attempt the proofe of the last by this Syllogisme They that admit no rule of faith but onely Scriptures and allow no infallible interpreter thereof to whose iudgement they will stand haue no meanes to end their controuersies and returne to vnitie But the Protestant Churches admit no rule of faith but onely Scriptures and allow no infallible interpreter thereof to whose iudgement they will stand Therefore the Protestant Churches haue no meanes to end their controuersies and returne to vnitie I denie your maior for the Scripture alone containes all truth necessarie to be beleeued and that so plainly that without any such soueraigne iudgement of any man it is possible for a reasonable man to discerne truth from falshood But if any man will be contentious we haue the sword of the magistrate and the censure of excommunication to bring him into order or to cut him off if he be incurable that the vnitie of our Churches be not dissolued either by heresic or schisme But to confirme your proposition you alledge Ieromes authoritie that there must be a head or chiefe ruler that occasion of schisme may be taken away The danger of schisme that Ierome speakes of in his first booke against Iouinian not as your Printer quotes it in the second was not in respect of doctrine but of outward peace Neither was this course held from the beginning as Ierome saith but in discretion appointed vpon occasion Before that by the malice of the diuell saith Ierome the Church was deuided into factions and one man held of Paul another of Apollo another of Cephas Churches were gouerned by common consent of the Presbyters but after that euery man began to thinke that those which hee had baptized were his and not Christs it was decreed ouer all the world that one chosen from among the Presbyters should be set ouer the rest to whom the whole care of the Church should appertaine and that the seeds of schismes might be taken away Out of which sentence of Ierome we may obserue these points First that this meanes of procuring vnitie belongeth not necessarily to the nature of the Church for then it must needs haue bene as auncient as the Church But Ierome telleth vs that there was a time when the Church was without it and that in her best estate while the Apostles liued By little and little saith Ierome afterward that the plants of dissention might be plucked vp the whole care was layed vpon one Secondly whereas in the place alledged by you Ierome acknowledgeth such a superioritie in Peter aboue the other Apostles in respect of age for which as he saith he was preferred before Iohn yet there is more heede to be taken to his iudgement in this place where he disputes the question without all passion then to that which hee speakes in the heate of disputation against Iouinian But what neede we any better proofe of this point then Saint Paul affoords vs He blameth the Corinthians because some held of Paul some of Apollos some of Cephas Cephas or Peter is the last why not the first rather if he were as you say the head Or why should the Corinthians be reproued for cleauing to him especially if he were appointed to be the chiefe It might be a fault to depend on Paule or on Apollos who were in your iudgement vnderlings but it was a great vertue to hang vpon Cephas the head How forgetfull was the Apostle Paul both of his dutie to Peter his head and of so readie a meanes to end that schisme that would not tell them that Peter was appointed head to the end all occasion of schisme might be taken away Thirdly we are not so to vnderstand Ierome as if he had said that there was one head appointed ouer the whole world but that in all places where there were multitudes of Presbyters order was taken that some one chosen from among the rest should be chiefe and principall in that Diocesse as I may speake and ouer all them which were in some sort accounted to be but one bodie This agreeth with the practise of those times and with that of Cyprian Here of spring heresies and schismes arise that the Priest of the Lord is not obeyed Which Cyprian speakes of euery seuerall Bishop in his Diocesse Whereunto also belongs that of Ierome There be seuerall Bishops of Churches seuerall Archbishops and seuerall Archdeacons and all the Ecclesiasticall order is stayed by the gouernours Whereby saith the Glosse Ierome proueth that there may not be two or more Bishops in one Church but that there must be a seuerall Bishop in euery seuerall Church To which purpose I may farther alledge another place of Ierome Vnlesse saith Ierome the Bishop haue a speciall power aboue other there will be as many schismes in the Church as there be Priests This course then of authorizing some one of the Presbyters aboue the rest was for the preseruing of order and keeping out of schisme not for the determining of controuersies in Religion as if all must haue stood to one mans iudgement in questions of Diuinitie which either may be ended by the authoritie of the Scriptures if they be necessary to be determined or if they be not may be forbidden to be proceeded in without any danger to the Churches libertie So that the Protestant Churches fully agree in matters of substance and want not meanes to settle peace in questions of lesse importance or if they did might easily haue as good meanes as your Church by appointing a Pope ouer themselues as in policie you haue done But as yet they finde no such need especially where the remedie is worse then the disease as it must needs be in so lawlesse a tyrannie Is it not more for the glory of God good of the Church as I haue said otherwhere that there should be continuall disagreement in some matters of Religion then that all should beleeue maintain false doctrine Were not our Sauiour Christ better haue a troubled church thē none at all Honorable war is to be preferred before dishonorable peace in the iudgement of any wise states-man And can it be more glorious to God to haue outward quietnesse in the Church with heresy yea with Antichristianisme then truth with contention True Christian vnitie consists principally in truth of religion without which the greatest agreement is but a conspiracy against God
see to haue a corrupted roote and could not perceiue it to haue any liuing branches we should haue cause to affirme absolutely that it were dead and not aliue A. W. He that doth not finde that you are a shamelesse slaunderer lookes verie sleightly into your report of the Protestants congregation You finde it is not holy No doubt you are a man of great intelligence and haue made diligent inquirie after the matter But it well becommeth the Pharisaicall pride of your Romish Synagogue to boast of your owne righteousnesse and in comparison of your selues to despise all men Let vs see what euidence you bring to prooue so greeuous an accusation Most of our men you say are euidently more wicked then men which liued both in old time and in later yeares in the Romane Church How euident you make this we will consider by and by For the present I say no more but that you speake craftily to deceiue vs in comparing most of our men with I know not what men that haue liued in the Roman Church There is no question but that generally the most are the worst euerie where because all men are naturally euill and none good but by the especiall grace of God working in them But if you would haue dealt plainely you should haue shewed that most men in our Churches are more wicked then most men that haue liued in your Romish Church since it became the bodie of Antichrist reuealed For we acknowledge that the Church of Rome was somtimes a true Church of Christ yeelding many worthie martyrs confessors and other holy men and women to the honour of the Gospell of Iesus Christ yea we denie not but that euen at this day there are some true Christians in your Churches and that the generall sort of Protestants are inferiour to some amongest you in regard of outward holinesse as for true inward sanctitie neither the one nor the other haue any part of it I meane neither ordinarie Protestants nor the best of your side who continue in the whole doctrine of your Church To prooue that you say against our Church you bring vs in two kinde of witnesses first generally those men that haue seene the conuersation of your Papists and our Protestants then particularly Luther Smidelin In the former consider how vaine a florish it was for you to compare our men now with Papists that liued in old time and to appeale for proofe to them that haue seene both as if you were able to shew vs some men of 700 or 800. yeares old or of 300. or 400 who haue knowne and considered the behauiour of your men and ours As for them that by trafficke or trauaile otherwise haue had sight and experience of both I dare stand to their iudgement in comparing our liues with yours for all parts of outward cariage In which matter I haue bene credibly informed by them whose credit I haue no cause to suspect that the abhomination of your Clergies and peoples liues hath partly bred setled in them a resolute abhorring of your religion to which otherwise they were indifferently affected But you presse vs with Luther and Smidelin who in their earnest exhortations and reproofes accuse our men for increase of sinne after the preaching of the Gospell Is this strange Doth not the holye Apostle tell vs that the Gospell in his time was abused to wantonnesse prophane men which yet made profession of religion taking aduantage of Gods gracious mercie preached in the Gospell to prouoke themselues to sinne Besides the greatest part at the renewing of the Gospell claue vnto Luther rather in a detestation of your religion the falsenesse whereof was most euident to them then in a certaine knowledge of the truth of that which he taught them But of whom spake Luther and Smidelin Of all Protestant Churches How can that be when they knew not the one halfe of them Is it a good reason then to condemne all Protestant Churches or the Protestants Church in generall because Luther and Smidelin complaine against the congregations in which they taught And yet what say they more then the Apostle Paule doth who chargeth the Corinthians with many grosse errors grieuous sinnes yea with such fornication as was not to be heard of among the Gentiles What say you to that sore accusation euen against the ministers of the Gospell All seeke their owne and not that which is Iesus Christs A man of your humour and wisedome would by and by conclude hereupon that the Church of God in the Apostles time was an vnholy congregation If you Iesuits Priests what you are in particular I neither know nor care bestowed as much paines in preaching as you do in plotting treason and hearing consessions such speeches would not seeme any thing strange vnto you But that you may the better perceiue the weakenesse of this your reason hearken a little what is said of your Church What one can you name me saith Bernard among all those that are spirituall rulers that doth not take greater care how he may emptie the peoples purses then how he may roote out their sinnes You say the most of our men are wicked Bernard to quit you for it pronounceth that there is not one of your Cleargie that maketh any conscience of discharging his duetie Haue you forgotten what a Bishop of yours said in the late Councell of Trent least any should thinke that you are better now then you were in Bernardes time The people saith the Bishop are fallen away from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme and the Priestes haue bene their ringleaders to all kinde of lewdnesse Yea Pope Adrian the sixt I am sure you will beleeue him speaking of your Prelates saith that All of them he putteth in himselfe too were declined cuerie one to his owne waies And that there had bene none of them a great while that had done any good no not one of them If such were and be the state of your Cleargie gesse you what the common people be Compare your witnesses and mine and tell me whether we ouermatch you or no both in number and weight Neuer any Saint of our Church Why do you not refute that which we alledge for our selues against this slander We pleade that Adam Abel Enoch Abraham and all the holy men named in the Scriptures with the Martyrs and confessors since our Sauiour Christs comming in the flesh that all the Apostles except Iudas whom we leaue to your Simoniacall congregation yea that many Bishops of Rome were of our Church To al this you reply not so much as one word but tell them that will beleeue you that there neuer was any Saint or holy man of our Church I cannot greatly blame you though you bind your followers to giue credit to you without looking for proofe of that you deliuer For if you should be put to that all were marred But I wil render you a
reason why we lay challenge to all those men as members of our Church and not of yours They agree say we disproue vs if you can with vs in the substance of doctrine concerning saluation by Iesus Christ and other points of the foundation If you were able to shew the like which is vnpossible yet would it not follow that they were of your Church because no man is in your account a member of your Church but he that agrees with you in all matters defined by your Church wherein I confidently anow and am readie to iustifie it there is no auncient writer in the first thousand years that is of your opiniō though in some one point or other they may agree with your doctrin But indeed we haue no saints canonized by our Church and made mediators betwixt God and vs to rob Iesus Christ of his office and God the Father of thanks due to him for granting our requests And if this want make our Church vnholy the Church in the time of our Sauiour himselfe and of his Apostles was most vnholy in which there neuer was any such practise or doctrine Indeed this is the maine holinesse whereby the learned of your side seeke to proue the truth of your Church and not that other of particular mens conuersation And what say you against our doctrine in this behalfe Forsooth that it cannot of it selfe leade the most precise obseruers of it to holinesse The particulars of our doctrine accused by you shall be defended in their seuerall places now a word or two onely in generall How doth any doctrine leade to holinesse but by propounding the rules of true obedience to God wherein all holinesse consists How doe the arts of Grammer Logicke Arithmeticke and Geometry leade a man to speake reason number and measure well but by deliuering the true rules to these purposes which in themselues direct to perfection in euery one of these professions And can our doctrine be said to be insufficient which acknowledgeth the scriptures of God to be the rule of all righteousnesse and all men bound to liue in obedience to the will of God contained and reuealed in them Do not we teach men that vpon paine of damnation they must labour to keepe all Gods commaundements whatsoeuer Are not our expositions of the commaundements as large in duties prescribed and sins forbidden as yours are Do we or you perswade men that there are some veniall sinnes small breaches of Gods law not to be regarded whereas we shew that euery least transgression of the law is damnable But because you charge vs with particular points which incline men as you say to libertie and loosenesse of life I will come to the examination of them seuerally yet but shortly for that I haue answered them all in another treatife against certaine articles propounded by one of your Popish faction It is vtterly vntrue that our doctrine inclines any man to breake fasting dayes nay rather we enioyne all men to obserue dayes lawfully set apart for fasting with all care and good conscience both for preparation to and cariage in the action As for your dayes of abstaining from flesh we hold the institution of them to be voyd of Religion and vnlawfull as making them in themselues a part of Gods seruice whereas a man for all your fasting may glut and gorge himselfe with wine and all dainties so he eate no flesh and yet keepe your Popish fast without danger of any censure for transgressing your law of fasting Confession of sinnes to a minister we neither commaund as a necessarie dutie nor forbid as a sinne but leaue it free to euery mans conscience as he findeth need of instruction or comfort It is so far from being a remedie of sinne as it is vsed by your church that it rather prouokes men to sinne because they haue so readie and easie a meanes to disburden their consciences as they thinke when they haue sinned A worthy gentleman that hath seene the experience of this matter doubteth not to auouch as much as I say that your people sinne that they may haue somewhat to confesse and confesse that they may returne to sin yea I can name and if need be bring forth one who hath bene faine in confession to accuse himselfe of sinnes which he neuer committed because his ghostly father would not be perswaded but that being a young man and liuing in one of your Popish countries he must needs be defiled with the corruptions of the place and age There is no one point wherein you more bewray your selues to be seruants and not sons of God then this confession against your owne soules that you would neglect the doing of good workes but that you looke to merite euerlasting life by them This motiue to good workes is so base that no man of a free nature would yeeld vnto it The very Philosophers could teach you that vertue is to be loued for vertue and not for any outward respect or consequent that may follow thereupon and God is more dishonored by your opinion of meriting then honored by any your supposed good workes whatsoeuer If you had euer felt what a sharpe spurre to holinesse of life the assurance of forgiuenesse of sinnes is you would neuer thinke that the practise of good workes is lightly esteemed where the mercie of God hath brought peace to the damned conscience And yet we want not that other helpe expectation of reward which we are sure shal be giuen to the least of our good works though not vpon their desert but of the meere mercie of God in Iesus Christ That wicked opinion of merit either before or after grace doth puffe vp the pride of mans nature and diminish the glorie of Gods mercie in Iesus Christ Wages vpon desert is the hire of seruants reward bestowed in loue is the gift of a kind father to a gracious sonne who hath shewed himself willing to performe duties of obedience What men doth it make carelesse but those proud Pharises that stand at the staues end with God and thinke scorne to labour in keeping the commandements vnlesse they may so keep them as to claime heauen vpon desert by keeping of them Is it not enough to stir vp any poore Christian soule to obedience that God will accept of his weake endeuours being performed in truth and singlenesse of heart and reward them with an vnspeakable measure of glorie There is no man vnlesse he be more desirous of his owne glorie then Gods but wil be content and glad to confesse his vnabilitie to performe the whole will of God perfectly and yet striue from time to time to doe as much as his corruption will giue way to It seemes that not diuinitie onely but also common reason failes you Shall I be carelesse in bearing my horse head and holding him vp from falling because I am sure he treads neuer a sure step but will stumble or trip continually do the best I can Put case
make outward profession of beleeuing the Gospell and obeying the Pope though he haue not Christian vertue in him no not so much as that faith he maketh shew of For if this serue to giue vs the right of being true members the Church may well be quite without inward holinesse as a matter not appertaining to the essence or nature of it The last part of your Minor is false the Protestants Churches haue had many thousand holy men euen all that euer held the truth of the Gospell according to the Scriptures and your Church neuer had nor shall haue any one truly sanctified that was wholly a member thereof after your account that is which agreed or agreeth with you in all points of Antichristianisme But I will follow you in your courses and of this say more afterward First you prooue the latter part and dispute against our Church in this sort That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holie by miracle or anie other certaine waie from God hath had no members of it holy But the Protestants Church hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle or any other certain way from God Therefore the Protestants Church hath had no members of it holy I denie your Maior because it will follow vpon granting it that no man is truly to be counted holy but he that is declared to be so by miracle or some other certaine way from God For your whole discourse sheweth that this is your meaning where you tell vs that No man can be knowne to be holy but by Gods testimonie of his holinesse by miracle or some other certaine way Of miracles by and by In the meane while I would faine know what these other certaine waies are which God vseth to giue vs assurance of this or that mans holinesse will you tell vs a tale of I know not what reuelations out of your Legends and bookes of examples which are full of such fained apparitions Put case those lewde lies were true tales and that the miracles deuised by some of your complices were worthie of credit surely the number of them that haue bene truely holy hath bene verie small if no more haue bene holy then can pleade such miracles or reuelatiōs for proofe of their holinesse As for those that haue testimony of their holinesse from God in the Scriptures both they are verie few in comparison for so many thousand yeares and that meanes of shewing who are holy ceassed aboue one thousand foure hundred yeares since Now concerning Miracles why should we in these daies gape after them like the vnbeleeuing Iewes for the confirmation of any mans holinesse since we haue no warrant nor example of Scripture to apply them to any such purpose Bring me one example if you can out of the whole Scripture of any miracle wrought to prooue any man to be holy The vse of miracles is the confirmation of doctrine or rather the auowing of mens calling from God that their doctrine may be receiued If I do not the works of my Father saith our Sauiour beleeue me not but if I do then though ye beleeue not me yet beleeue the works that ye may know and beleeue that the Father is in me and I in him These things are written that ye might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ the sonne of God To that end did our Sauiour furnish his Apostles with power to worke miracles As ye go preach saying the kingdome of God is at hand Heale the sicke cleanse the leaprous raise vp the dead Therefore doth Pacianus require miracles of the Nouatians because they brought in a new Gospell And why I pray you do false Prophets that arise shew many great signes and wonders To prooue themselues to be holy No surely if they desire an opinion of holinesse it is that their doctrine might the rather be receiued But to proceed yet further if no man be holy that hath not miracles to testifie his holinesse I doubt much whether any man may be thought holy or no. For it is out of question that wicked men haue wrought miracles either truely or at least which I rather beleeue in shew so that men could not discerne the contrarie Shall I need to name Pharaoes sorcerers Doth not the Scripture tell vs that false Christs and false Prophets shall shew signes and wonders Doth not the Apostle forewarne vs that Antichrist shal come with signes and lying wonders Your owne schooleman Gabriel Biel telleth vs that miracles are wrought often times by the operation of diuels And Lyra is not afraid to say that Now and then there is great deceit vsed in the Church by miracles fained by the Priests or some that are about them for their worldly commoditie Your Church affoordeth vs examples of notorious lies in this kinde I will name two of your principall Saints Saint Bridget auoucheth that it was reuealed to her that the Virgin Marie was preserued from Originall sinne Saint Katharin of Syena had a quite contrarie reuelation From whom rrow you came these miracles Many miracles saith Theophylact haue bene done by the diuell And Austin speaking of such wonders alledged by the followers of Donatus reiecteth all such as deuises of lying men or illusions of deceitfull spirits Let vs heare your great Master Bellarmines iudgement of this matter where he maintaineth miracles as a marke of the Church Till the Church hath approoued those things that are done for miracles saith Bellarmine it is not euident or certaine by assurance of faith of any miracle that it is a true miracle His reason followeth That it is not euident it appeareth because then faith should be euident That it is not certaine by assurance of faith it is manifest because it is not cleare to vs by such assurance as cannot be false that the thing done is not an illusion of the diuell For though the diuell cannot worke any true miracle yet can he in shew do any thing neuer so wonderfull If then there be no meanes to iudge any man holy but by miracles nor any certaintie but by the testimony of the Church to know which are true miracles doubtlesse you can neuer prooue that your Church is holy because there haue bene holy men members of it till you haue first prooued it to be the true Church But of your proofe enough To your Minor I answer that Bellarmine out of whom you tooke all this maketh the holinesse of your men and their miracles two seuerall proofes though vnder the note of holinesse of life Out of him I say farther that the Patriarks Prophets and Apostles yea all that euer were holy were members of the same Church with vs holding the same doctrine that we do for the substance of it You bid me prooue it But by your leaue the duetie of prouing lies vpon the replier whose place you haue taken not
vpon the answerer whose person in this case I sustaine Besides I bring you the same proofe that Bellarmine bringeth for himselfe that is I say they were all of our Church If it be absurd to do so let your Cardinall learne to dispute better It were long to enter into particulars yet if I had brought the argument I would for shame haue said some what in proofe of it but let it passe as it comes for this once Against whom make you all this discourse to prooue that it is not possible to know certainly who are holy and who are not Surely not against the Protestants who confesse as much If hereupon you conclude that our Church hath had none holy because it hath had none certainly knowne to be holy the Maior of your syllogisme will be false as before viz. That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle or anie other certaine way from God hath had no members of it holy and I will answer to your Minor as I did that the Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles were members of our Church certainly knowne to be holy by reuelation from God But whereas you say that no man can tell whether himselfe be truely sanctified or no you affoord me proofe of that which before I affirmed that the Apostles were of our Church Prooue your selues saith the Apostle Paule whether you be in the faith examine your selues know ye not your owne selues that Iesus Christ is in you except you be reprobates And how doth the spirit of God beare witnesse to our spirit that we are the children of God if it be not possible to discerne his voice from the delusion of Sathan God hath giuen saith Bernard certaine manifest signes and tokens of saluation that it cannot be doubted but that he is in the number of the elect in whom those signes continue And in an other place whatsoeuer soule among you sath the same man hath at any time felt in the secret of his conscience the spirit of the Sonne crying Abba Father let that soule presume that he is loued with a fatherly affection which feeleth himselfe indued with the same spirit which the Sonne had Be confident whosoeuer thou art be confident nothing doubting By the spirit of the Sonne know thou art the daughter of the Father the spouse and sister of the Sonne Do you name Bernard for a principall Saint of your Church and go so directly against his doctrine As for that place of Ecclesiastes what prooueth it but onely that no man can truly iudge whether he be in Gods fauour or no by the outward things of this life or at the most that an ordinarie naturall man can giue no true iudgement of the matter This place saith Alfonsus Salmero no meane Iesuite doth not prooue that which some men draw from it that a man knoweth not the loue of God toward him because it followeth in the text he knoweth not whether he be worthie of hatred But the wicked know that they are most worthie of Gods hatred by reason of their grieuous sins The other place that No man can say his heart is cleane maketh nothing against the point you would disprooue For what though euerie man be tainted with naturall corruption which hath euen the nature of sinne in it may be not haue withall assurance according to his measure of Gods loue in Christ Yet if want of a pure heart be all the hindrance your doctrine teacheth vs that the partie baptised before he fall into some deadly sinne is wholly cleane originall sinne hauing lost in him the nature of sinne But the knowledge of the fauour of God dependeth not vpon the measure of our holinesse but vpon the truth of it Wheresoeuer the spirit of God hath begotten true faith there he hath begun true sanctification which according to his diuine power and pleasure be will in time bring to full perfection As if our Church had bene begun with Luther and not rather with Adam and the world continued in the Patriarches and Prophets and at last shewed most gloriously in the Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ As long as God hath giuen testimonie of the holinesse of these worthies our Church cannot be said to haue had none certainly knowne to be holy But though we builde not vpon any such ground tel me what it wanted of amiracle that a poore Frier should set himselfe against the Pope and the whole state of your Church and for all the malice persecution of the Pope the Emperor and generally all the estates of these westerne parts as well ciuill as Ecclesiasticall except a Prince or two in Germany conuerted by him continue and grow so many yeares and leaue behind him after a peaceable and godly death so many heires of his doctrine daily increasing and multiplying It is enough that the word of God beareth witnesse to the truth of his doctrine though we haue neither miracle nor reuelation of his holinesse But you would make the world beleeue that he and Caluin attempted to worke miracles If it had bene so it was not to breed an opinion of their holinesse but to auow the truth of their doctrine But to whom can it seeme likely that they which denied that any miracles were to be looked for and taught that Antichrist should come with signes and wonders would go about such a needlesse and doubtfull peece of worke What tell you vs of the Apostata Bolsec or Staphylus who solde themselues to lie for the Popes aduantage At the least name some likely men though partiall and not such knowne enemies and Sycophants I maruell you prooue not this point of holinesse by the examples of your Popes in whose persons holinesse is inuested and from them deriued to all other as honour is in and from temporall Princes If the Popes holinesse be not extraordinarily holy what should a man looke for of inferiour Papists Who would not rather name the Sunne then any starre of the first magnitude or the Moone her selfe to prooue that there is light in the skie But you knew how filthie that fountaine of your holinesse is Well let them go as they are you haue named vs three the ancientest of whom is not yet six hundred yeares old What say you of them First that they were certainly knowne to haue bene professors of that same Religion which was then and is now professed at Rome To whom is this certainly knowne How many of our men haue shewed that the Religion of the Church of Rome is altered in diuers points since Bernards time The Councell of Trent is the pit out of which the religiō of your present Church is digged I referre the Reader for this point to a Treatise lately written by a learned Diuine wherein many particulars to this purpose are deliuered Bernard was indeed a member of the Church of Rome as then it was yet either he dissented from
by Saint Gregorie the Pope and that it cōtinued in that faith without knowledge of the Protestants religion which then and for diuers hundred yeares after was neuer heard off as being then vnhatched The like record of other countries conuerted by meanes of those onely who either were directly sent by the Pope or Bishop of Rome or at least communicated and agreed in profession of faith with him we may finde in other Histories Lastly let him shew some space of time in which the Romane Church was not since Christ and his Apostles time or in which it was not visible knowne as we can shew them many hundred yeares in which theirs was not at all Let him I say therefore shew and prooue which neuer any yet did or can prooue that euer the Romane Church did either faile to be or to be visible or being still visible when the profession of the ancient faith which it receiued from the Apostles did faile in it and when and by whom the profession of a new faith began in it As we can shew whē where by whom this new no faith of theirs began Certaine it is that once the Romane Church had the true faith and was a true Church to wit when Saint Paule wrote to the Romanes saying Vestra fides annunciatur in vniuerso orbe your faith is renowned in the whole world When therefore I pray you as the learned and renowned Master Campian vrgeth when I say did Rome change the beleefe and profession of faith which once it had Quo tempore quo Pontifice qua via qua vi quibus incrementis vrbem orbem religio peruasit aliena Quas voces quas turbas quae lamenta ea res progenuit Omnes orbe reliquo so piti sunt dum Roma Roma inquam noua Sacramenta nouum sacrificium nouum religionis dogma procuderet Nullus extitit Historicus neque Latinus neque Graecus neque remotus neque citimus quirem tantam vel obscurè iaceret in commentarios At what time vnder what Pope what way with what violence or force with what augmentatiō or increase did a strange religion ouerflow the Citie and the whole world What speaches or rumors what tumults or troubles what lamentations at least did it breed Was all the rest of the world asleepe when Rome the Imperial and mother Citie whose matters for the most part are open to the view of the whole world when Rome I say did coine new Sacraments a new sacrifice a new doctrine of faith religion Was there neuer one Historiographer neither Latin nor Greeke neither farre off nor neere who would at least obscurely cast into his commentaries such a notable matter as this is Certainly it is not possible if such a thing as this had happened but that it should haue bene resisted or at least recorded by some For suppose it were true which the Protestantes imagine that some points of the faith and religion which Rome professeth at this day were as contrarie to that which was in it when Saint Paule commended the Romane faith as black to white darknesse to light or so absurd as were now Iudaisme or Paganisme as one of their Historiographers accounteth it worse saying that indeed Augustine the Monke conuerted the Saxons from Paganisme but as the prouer be saith saith he bringing them out of Gods blessing into the warme Sunne Suppose I say this were true Then I would demaund if it were possible that any Prince in any Christian Citie and much more that the Pope in Rome the mother Citie could at this day bring in any notable absurd rite of Iewish or Paganish religion for example to offer vp an Oxe in sacrifice or to worship a Cow as God and not onely to practise it priuately in his owne Chappell but to get it publickely practised and preached in all Churches not onely of that Citie but also in all the rest of the Christian world and that none should in Christian zeale continually oppose themselues that no Bishop should preach no Doctor write against this horrible innouation of faith and the author thereof that none should haue constancie to suffer martyrdome which Christians haue bene alwaies most readie to endure rather then to yeeld to a profession and practise so contrarie to their ancient faith that there should be no true hearted Christians who would speake of it or at least lament it nor no Historiographer that would so much as make obscure mention of it Could all be so asleepe that they could not note or so cold and negligent in matters concerning their soules good as generally without any care to yeeld vnto it No certainly though there were no promise of Christ his owne continual presence no assurance of the infallible assistāce of his holy spirit yet it is not possible that such a grosse error should arise among Christiās ouerwhelme the whole world without some resistance The Bishops and Pastors could not be so simple or so vnmindfull of their duetie but they would first note such an euident contrarietie to the ancient and vniuersally receiued faith and noting it they would doubtlesse with common consent resist contradict and finally according to Saint Paule his rule accurse it If therefore this could not happen now nor euer heretofore was heard that any such absurd errour or heresie did or could arise without noting or resisting what reason can any man haue to say that this hath happened at Rome Not being able to alledge any writer that did note the thing the person the time and what opposition was made and continued against it as in all heresies that haue sprung vp of new we can do If there could not a little ceremonie be added to the Masse but that it was set downe in historie when and by whom how could the whole substance of the Masse which consisteth in consecration oblation and consumption of the sacred Hoast be newly inuented and no mention made when or by whom or that euer there was was any such new inuention at all If also Historiographers were not afraid to note personall and priuate vices of the Popes themselues which they might well thinke Popes would not willingly haue made open to the world why should they haue feared to haue recorded any alteration in religion Which if it had bene had bene a thing done publikely in the view of the whole world or if there were any feare or flatterie which might tie the tongues and pennes of those that liled neare hand that they durst not or would not mention such a matter yet doubtlesse others which liued in places further off should not haue had those causes and consequently would not haue kept secret such an open and important a thing as this If lastly the histories which make mention of these priuate vices of Popes and other Christian Princes could not onely first come out but also continue without touch till these latter times what reason can any haue to doubt
Aposiles without change is Catholicke The Romane Church is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the Apostles without change Therefore the Romane Church is Catholicke If to make a Church Catholicke it be required that she continue in the doctrine of the Apostles how did you before denie that the doctrine of the Apostles is a necessary and certaine marke of the true Church But if you leaue this out and affirme that Church to be Catholicke which is vniuersall in doctrine and thinke it not needfull that the doctrine professed be the Apostles I denie your maior The reasons of my deniall I deliuered in the former Chapter when I shewed that truth of doctrine was the most proper and true marke of the Church But whatsoeuer your maior be your minor is euidently false in euery part of it The very foundations of the doctrine of the Apostles are ouerthrowne by your Church in the heresies you hold concerning predestination iustification free will the insufficiencie of the Scriptures and the headship of Antichrist your Pope Neither do you onely faile in the doctrine of the Apostles but in your vniuersalitie of time For how can that doctrine be said to haue bin always which was not taught by our Sauiour and his Apostles As for vniuersalitie in regard of the ample vniformitie of your doctrine if you speake of your Churches determination many points of great moment are not as yet defined by it for example take those maine questions whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or no whether he haue without a Councell priuiledge of not erring or no whether there be any merit of congruitie or no and such like Yea your Church denieth the chiefe point of all which in the Apostles time was held by all true Christians that iustification is by faith without the workes of the law I forbeare to shew the reasons of that I affirme because any man may setch them out of my former answer in this and the last Chapter I looked for proofe of your minor but you were too wise to vndertake a matter so vnpossible and therefore in stead of that you challenge vs to shew and proue the contrarie forgetting that it is the repliers part to proue and not the answerers But I pray you tell me in earnest did you neuer heare of any particulars whereby we except against your doctrine as none of the Apostles What a vaine flourish is this then to demaund new proofes of vs and neuer once assay to answer those we haue alreadie brought But I haue made answer to your challenge in my refutation of your proofe that your Church is one Yea our mens bookes are full of these points and proofes both out of Scriptures and Fathers As for your brag of being able to shew diuers points that we hold or denie otherwise then the true Church did in the time of the Apostles it is well knowne that in most controuersies betwixt vs you are faine to flie from the Scriptures of God to the writings of men and deuise interpretations to serue your turne In some points we denie not but that we dissent from the opinion of some writers of former ages but that we go against the iudgement of the whole Church before it became Antichristian neither we graunt nor you can proue And euen for those times of error we want not the testimonie of learned men to auouch our doctrine against your heresies But you call vpon vs to set downe the point of doctrine the author the time the place what companie did oppose themselues against it and who they were that did continue in the profession of the former faith What needs all this ado Wil it not serue the turne if we make it manifest that your doctrine is contrary to that the Apostles taught vnlesse we can shew you when euery one of your errors was first hatched What if the Scribes and Pharises had demaunded the like questions of our Sauiour Christ touching their errors reproued by him There is no doubt but that as he was God he could haue declared euery one of these particulars but do you thinke he would haue fed their foolish humor in this case and not haue contented himselfe with shewing that it was not so from the beginning Some of our Ministers haue truly and wittily refuted this conceit of yours by shewing how absurd it is for a man that is sicke of the plague a surfet or any such disease to denie that he is so diseased because the Physition cannot tell him at what time and in what place vpon what occasion in what companie he first tooke the infection or distempered his bodie by ill diet Is it a good plea against plaine and sound euidence whereby I proue that such a Lordship ought to be mine that I cannot shew when and how I lost the possession of euery seuerall close and meadow farme and cottage But to take away all iust excuse from you our writers haue shewed the first beginnings of many of your errors and might haue done of more if al were extant that hath bin written and your inquisitors and censurers had not as you call it purged indeed corrupted and maimed the writings of former ages wheresoeuer they made against you if you could light on them before they were too well knowne in the world This challenge hath as much reason as the former We must proue that there haue not bene some in euery countrey where the Gospell hath bene professed that haue held your Romane faith Or rather must not you proue your Catholicknesse by such induction But we confesse it to be likely that the diuell hath from time to time sowed some of your tares amongst the Lords wheate But that your whole faith as now you hold it was euer maintained any where till the last Councell of Trent we challenge you to proue if you can Surely the Greeke Church euen till this day dissenteth from you in many and some no small matters as your Popes supremacie that I may not name those Christians who are in precious Iohns countrey in Armenia and other parts of the world to whom your doctrine is as little knowne in a manner as ours is to those Indians you spake of Amongst whom for ought you can proue or know to the contrary there may be and in all liklihood are some to whom the Lord hath giuen grace to rest wholly vpon Iesus Christ for pardon of their sinnes without any mingling of their owne workes with Christs to procure them the inheritance of heauen All such we challenge to be of our Church though they agree with you in many of your errors through their ignorāce of the Scriptures As for our countrey of England which like that harlot you call deare as oft as you conceiue hope of bringing it into subiection to the Pope but otherwise wish it wholly destroyed as shee did the child it neither was conuerted by your proud Monke Austine but peruerted rather
and long before he was borne had many congregations in it who held the same faith that we now do You confesse they were not of your Church for then what needed or how could they haue bene conuerted by Austine That the Gospell was here long before that time euen in a manner from the first preaching of it Polydor Virgill no Protestant may teach you out of Gildas a Brittish writer ancienter then Bede Gildas witnesseth saith Polydor that the Brittans receiued the Gospell presently vpon the first publishing of it abrode in the world Yea Bede your owne author auoucheth that seuen Bishops of the Brittans and many verie learned men refused to receiue Austine for their Archbishop And Geffrey of Monmouth testifieth that Ethelbat king of Kent caused 1200. monkes of Bangor to be slaine in one day because they would not yeeld to Austins Archbishopricke of whom that writer saith that they decked with martyrdome entred the kingdome of heauen Mark you what he saith They were martyrs that chose to die rather then to yeeld to your Popish Archbishop The like conuersion we may find in the Indies especially the West where your Catholicke nation the Spaniards haue destroyed in few yeares more soules then all sent by the Pope or agreeing in faith with him euer conuerted in fiue times so many Although what tell you vs of men communicating with the Pope in the same faith How durst they attempt any such matter without speciall commission from him Is his authoritie no more amongst you The Romane Church hath indeed alwayes bene visible but it hath not alwayes bene the same Church For many hundred yeares it was ours and not yours though the diuell laboured to sow the tares you now sell for corne among the wheate and preuailed by little and little It is therefore ridiculous for you to challenge vs that we should shew when the faith receiued by the Church of Rome from the Apostles began to faile in it It was done as our Sauiour speakes in the like case while men slept and so slily peece by peece that the corne was ouergrowne ere the tares were perceiued most men tooke them for wheate they that saw some difference thought them too deeply rooted for them to plucke vp and if any man offered to touch them with his weeding hooke Satan had taken order by your Pope and his Cleargie that the hooke should be wrung out of his hands and if he held hard his head be wrung off his shoulders Thus one man being taught by anothers calamitie as in hunting with the Lion the Foxe was by the Asses misery euery one thought it best to sleepe in a whole skin and to beare with that they could not helpe Yet are there many examples of those who from time to time haue withstood the tyrannie of your Pope and your heresies in Religion and many more we should haue heard of if your Popish Cleargie had not bin chiefe commaunders through all Europe What is all this painted discourse but a flourishing repetition of that which hath bene often answered like coleworts twice sod and strewed ouer with sugar Onely to grace the seruice you send in the dish by one who in your eyes is a proper man But do you not know that as wel his owne treason as the continuall practises of his companions and aboue all the late diuellish fire worke of your superiour Garnets approbation haue made Campions authoritie light and the name of a Iesuite odious to all true hearted Englishmen Let vs take the Traitor at the best and giue him some commendation of wit and of a quicke cornicall stile If once his writings be stript of their rhetoricall habit and set naked before the light of true logicke it will appeare to all the world I will say no more then I am able to manifest that neuer any man so doted vpon by them that would seeme to be great clearkes writ more weakly or vnsoundly You tell vs that the Romane Church was once a true Church We acknowledge it with thankes to God and due commendation thereof and are loth to say any thing whereby the best opinion of it might be diminished but that you driue vs to it by building vpon that high commendation which S. Paul say you hath left written of it as if it had once bene so extraordinarily rooted that no blast could shake it But how vaine a conceit this is it will easily be seene if we consider that other Churches which haue had as great commendations are now no Churches at all What is become of that famous Church at Corinth of which the Apostle testifieth that In all things it was made rich in Christ in all kind of speech and in all knowledge so that they were not destitute of any gift yea the Apostle addeth that Iesus Christ shall also confirme them vnto the end that they may be blamelesse in the day of our Lord Iesus This passeth that he saith of the Romanes The like he saith of the Philippians I thanke my God because of the fellowship which you haue in the Gospell from the first day vntill now and I am perswaded of the same thing that he which hath begun this good worke in you will performe it vntill the day of Iesus Christ How would you haue triumphed if the Apostle had said as much of your Church But what say you to the Church of Thessalonica From you saith the Apostle of the Thessalonians sounded out the word of the Lord not in Macedonia and Achaia onely but your faith also which is toward God is spread abroade in all quarters Are not these commendations as great as those that are left written of the Romanes Yea what if that which the Apostle speakes of them be not to commend their faith but to shew the reason of his ioy and thankes to God for their conuersion As if he should haue said that he did thanke God for them because of their beleeuing and the report thereof through the world was like to proue an occasion of spreading the Gospell and drawing many other by their example to the profession of Christian Religion and confirming them that did beleeue He declares saith Caietan that the cause of his thanksgiuing was that the fame of their beleeuing was profitable to all the world For Rome at that time was the head of the world and therefore the report of the Christian faith being at Rome was spread abroade into all places and was profitable to all as being a meanes to prouoke them to beleeue Of the confirming of others Lombard saith that they which beleeued were strengthened in faith seeing that their rulers were made their brethren in faith So do Origen Theodoret your Glosses Lyra Thomas Catharin and other vnderstand the Apostle Ambrose is not afraid to say plainly that the Apostle reioyceth for their good beginning knowing that they might go forward to perfection For as
yet saith Thomas they had not perfect faith because some of them were by false Apostles seduced so that they thought the cermonies of the law were to be ioyned with the Gospell He doth not saith your interlinear Glosse commend their faith as perfect but their readinesse and desire to embrace Christ All which notwithstanding we willingly graunt that the Romane Church was at that time and long after a true Church what gather you of this graunt I hope you will not say that therefore it must needs be a true church still But we shal better vnderstand your meaning by that which followeth There is nothing you Papists are more afraid of then to be drawne to iustifie your doctrine by Scripture Therefore you alwayes keepe aloofe and tell vs of the Church the Church as the Iewes did Ieremie of the Temple The Romane Church say you was once a true Church Who denieth it Therefore is it so still I say you that it is vnlesse you can shew at what time it departed from the true faith Did you neuer know any man who in his youth had blacke haire and now being old is all white headed Put case I would stand verie stifly vpon your argument and say that his head is blacke still and vrge you to tell me when the first haire changed white Would you answer me or laugh at me for my folly But such changes in faith say you would haue bene resisted or at least recorded by some and you prooue it thus If no heresie as contrarie to truth as blacke is to white was euer heard of to haue arisen without noting or resisting nor any such could now possibly so arise then no such thing is to be beleeued of the Romane Church But no such heresie was euer heard of to haue arisen nor can so arise without noting or resisting Therefore no such thing is to be beleeued of the Romane Church That I may answer directly to your Syllogisme remember which I also noted before that you take it as granted that there was neuer any noting or resisting of errours but there is yet record remaining of it Whereas we gessing reasonably of that which is past by that we see euerie day perswade our selues that your Popish inquisitors and censurers haue raced and destroyed many records wherein the arising of your errors and the resistance made against them haue bene noted I would speake more of this matter but that almost euerie childe knoweth how shamefully and lewdly you deale euerie day with your owne mens writings who forced by the euidence of truth here and there giue witnesse to our doctrine in their bookes We see not then why we may not yeeld this conclusion for ought that it can aduantage you or hurt vs. All such errours doubtlesse haue bene noted and resisted though the records thereof be perished defaced or destroyed by your Antichristian Prelates Secondly though it were granted to be true that No heresie as contrarie to the truth as blacke is to white euer could arise without being noted or recorded yet might your Popish errours haue stollen in for the most part vnperceiued Because they were not apparently contrary to the knowne truth as the absurd examples you bring of sacrificing an Oxe or worshipping a Cow are Poperie as the Apostle saith of it vnder the title of Antichristianisme is a mysterie of iniquitie which began to worke in his daies and by little and little with colourable pretences wrought it selfe into the Church till it came to that height in which all the world now seeth it I might exemplifie this matter in that great point of your Popes licentious and vnlimited authority how it began by reason of the place Rome being the chiefe seat of the Empire how it grew by the fauour of the Emperours and the worthinesse of some Bishops of that sea and so crept on till it had gotten strength to trample the Emperours themselues vnder foote It is said by way of prouerbe that Rome was not built in one day The speach is as true of your Popes Romish gouernment as of Romulus first founding the Citie The occasions and pretences of your Popes greatnesse were reasonable faire to shew and seemed to promise I know not what securitie to religion and peace to Christendome but the euenthath shewed that the one by it was for a time quite ouerthrowne the other partlie destroyed and altogether brought into great hazard But I may not enlarge my answer to farre Our Historiographer whom you finde fault with no doubt spake in that iust indignation he conceiued against the intollerable pride of the Romish Monke Austin in pittie of that bloodshed which insued vpon his finding fauour with the Saxon kings whom he caused to imbrew their hands in the bloud of many thousand poore Christians because forsooth they would not submit themselues to his insolencie If his speech sound vnpleasantly in your eares how would you haue liked that of our Sauiour in the Gospell VVo be to you Scribes and Pharisies Hypocrites For ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made you make him two fold the childe of hell more then your selues For saith Ierome he that before did but simply erre in his ignorance by your lewd conuersation is driuen from his profession backe againe to Gentilisme Surely they that before were heathen and might by Gods blessing haue bene wonne to the truth of the Gospell through the preaching of the Britans and their humble conuersation by this Austin lost the opportunitie and became persecutors of true Christians for your pride and superstition with which afterward the whole nation was miserably ouerwhelmed and at last almost perished vnder the Normans But to giue you some better satisfaction touching this point heare I pray you in a few words what one of your owne writers saith It is a thing full of horror saith Bucchingerus either to reade or remember that the Popes of Rome practised such tyranny one against another O how are they degenerated from their Ancestors It could not be that in the time of such cruelty there should be any regard had of Christian pietie Let no man then maruaile if some abuses and peruerse opinions crept into the Church There was great ignorance of the Scripture and loue of superstition The Lord sending men strong delusions that they should beleeue lies because they had not receiued the loue of the truth You presse vs here as you thinke with some probabilitie that if there had bene any alteration of religion it would certainly haue bene recorded But how should it haue bene recorded when it was not seene You dreame of a sodain change where as the alteration grew from good to bad yet with shew of some goodnesse and from bad to worse so nicely that few or none could discerne it Your probabilities are two The former in this manner If there could not a little
and worship of their Images Your idle distinctions of Idoll and Image of seruice and worship of religious and ciuill worship I haue otherwhere examined and refuted If you say that you worship not the Image it is too manifestly apparent as a ruled case amongst you that the Image must haue the same worship that belongeth to the thing whose Image it is But you do not take the Images to be Gods If you speake of all your ignorant people I scarce beleeue you But this maketh no difference in worship The heathen at least the learned and wiser sort of them did not hold their Idols to be Gods but representations of their Gods And you Papists in making them mediators of intercession and so acknowledging but one God do little better then the Pagans for they had but one soueraigne God Iupiter who commaunded all the rest Not onely Dij minorum gentium their Gods of the third and fourth forme but also those of the second and first as Hercules Apollo Venus yea and Iuno her selfe too who was both wife and sister to Iupiter depended vpon him and were glad to be mediators of intercession to him for their fauorites as is euerie where to be seene in Homer and Virgil All the difference of any moment that I perceiue is that some of the heathen Gods were imagined to be such by nature and all your Diui or Saints pety-gods haue both their places and offices by fauour But I am wearie of these abhominations and fooleries of yours The Pastors of the Church being imployed in withstanding manifest and dangerous heresies neither did nor could though they slept not perceiue and reprooue euery errour yea it is more then likely that they were content to beare with many things as long as the maine points were held soundly least by striuing for matters of lesse weight greater things should be neglected and they that erred in small things vpon resistance quite fall away to ioyne with the heretickes This in the beginning for some fiue hundred yeares was the estate of the Church And afterward plentie bred pride and idlenesse the chalices were turned into gold and Priests into wood or lead that partly ignorāce partly slothfulnesse gaue the diuell opportunitie to sow what errours he would in the middest of the Church If any man of more learning or grace thē the ordinary sort perceiued and reprooued the errours of his time he was by one means or other suppressed or disgraced all mē their writings especially after the reuealing of Antichrist being at the deuotion of your persecuting Cleargie Yet did not Almighty God leaue his truth without witnes as it appeareth by record of them who from time to time misliked and withstood your Antichristian doctrines These are no dreames of a proud man in his sleepe but likely coniectures or rather apparent truthes as any indifferent man may discerne and will confesse To shut vp the matter you be take your selfe to your generall Rendez-vous of the Church which forsooth if those former imputations were true should haue erred and so the holy Ghost haue neglected his office which your Pope hath assigned him to keepe the vniuersall Church from erring It had bene well your Antichrist would haue contented himselfe with his saucinesse toward his Lord Saint Peter in appointing him to the Portership of heauen gates and not haue presumed to enioyne the holy Ghost also such an office as our Sauiour neuer committed to him The charge our Sauiour left with that his glorious Lieutenant specified in that part of his Patent which you glance at was not concerning the vniuersall Church a thing in your sense not once signified in the Scriptures but touching the Apostles absolutely and all true Christians in generall and particular for matters necessarie to saluation This accordingly hath alwaies bene performed no man that euer truly beleeued in Iesus Christ hauing fallen into any such errour as might vtterly seuer him from the bodie of the true Church that is the company of the elect beleeuers wherof our Sauiour Christ is the head as I haue shewed in my speciall answer to these places before But Tertullian saith that the holy Ghost had neglected his dutie if the Church had vniuersally erred in such important matters Tertullian speaketh not of any vniuersall Church but of seuerall particular Churches which you grant may erre and yet the holy Ghost not faile in his commission Besides Tertullian himselfe saith otherwhere that the Church may be preserued in one or two and therefore your Catholicke Church of Rome might well fall into such grosse heresies without any disgrace to the Spirit of God A. D. §. 7. § IIII. That the Romane Church onely is Apostolicke Fourthly I find that the Protestants Church is not Apostolick because they cannot deriue the pedegree of their Preachers lineally without interruption from the Apostles but are forced to acknowledge some other as Luther or Caluin or some such for their first founders in this their new faith from whom they may perhaps shew some succession of the preachers of their faith but they can neuer shew that Luther or Caluin themselues who liued within these hundred yeares did either lawfully succeed or was lawfully sent to teach this new faith by any Apostolicke Bishop or Pastor Nay Luther himselfe doth not onely confesse but also brag that he was the first preacher of this new found faith Christum à nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari saith he We dare boast that Christ was first published by vs. For which his glorious boasting me thinkes he deserueth well that title which Optatus giueth vnto Victor the first bishop of the Donatists to wit to be called filius sine patre discipulus sine magistro a sonne without a father a disciple without a maister On the contrary side the Romane Church can shew a lineall succession of their Bishops without interruption euen from the Apostle Saint Peter vnto Clement the eight the Bishop of Rome which liueth at this day The which succession from the Apostles which we haue and the Protestants want the auncient Fathers did much esteeme and vsed it as an argument partly to confound the hereticks partly to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholick Church So doth Irenaeus who saith Traditionem ab Apostolis annunciatam hominibus fidem per successiones Episcoporum peruenientem vsque ad nos indicantes confundimus omnes illos qui quoquo modo vel per sui placentiam malam vel per vanam gloriam vel per caecitatem malam sententiam praeterquà m oportet colligunt Shewing the tradition from the Apostles and the faith comming vnto vs by succession of Bishops we confound all them who any way through euill complacence of themselues or vaine glorie or through peruerse opinion do collect and conclude otherwise then they ought So also doth S. Austin who saith Tenet me in Ecclesia Catholica ab
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one
infallible and vniuersall rule accommodate to the capacitie of euerie one the which rule cannot be any other but the doctrine and teaching of the true Church the which Church is alwaies to continue visible vntill the worlds end and is to be knowne by these foure markes Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke the which markes agree onely to the Romane Church that is to say to that companie which doth communicate and agree in profession of faith with the Church of Rome whereupon followeth that this Church or companie is the onely true Church of which euerie one must learne that faith which is necessarie to saluation Considering I say all this I would demaund of the Protestants how they can perswade themselues to haue that faith which is necessarie to saluation sith they will not admit the authoritie and doctrine of the Church of which onely they ought to learne this faith Or how they can as some of them do challenge to themselues the title of the true Church sith their companie hath neuer one of the foure markes which by common consent of all must nedes be acknowledged for the true markes of the Church How can their congregation be the true Church which neither is One because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie nor Holy because neither was there euer any man of it which by miracle or any other euident testimony can be prooued to haue bene truly holy neither is their doctrine such as those that most purely obserue it do without faile thereby become holy nor Catholicke because it teacheth not all truths that haue bene held by the vniuersall Church in former times but denieth many of them neither is it spred ouer all the Christian world but being diuided into diuers sectes euerie particular sect is contained in some corner of the world Neither hath it bene in all times euer since Christ but sprong vp of late the first founder being Martin Luther an Apostata a man after his Apostasie from his professed religious order knowne both by his writings words deeds and manner of death to haue bene a notable ill liuer Nor Apostolicke because the preachers thereof cannot deriue their Pedegree lineally without interruption from any Apostle but are forced to beginne their line if they will haue any from Luther Caluin or some latter How can they then brag that they haue the true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke faith sith this is not found in any companie that differeth in doctrine from the onely true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church For if it be true which Saint Austin saith that in ventre Ecclesiae veritas manet the truth remaineth in the bellie of the Church it is impossible that those who are disioyned by difference of beleefe from that companie which is knowne to be the true Church should haue the true faith For true faith as before hath bene prooued is but one wherefore he that differeth in beleefe from them which haue the true faith either he must haue a false faith or no faith at all Againe one cannot haue true faith vnlesse he first heare it according to the ordinarie rule of Saint Paule saying Fides ex auditu faith commeth of hearing but how can one heare true doctrine of faith sine praedicante without one to preach truly vnto him And how should one preach truly at least in all points nisi mittatur vnlesse he be sent and consequently assisted by the spirit of God Now how should we know that Luther or Caluin or any other that will leap out of the Church leaue that company wherin is vndoubted succession and by succession lawfull mission or sending from God how should we I say know that these men teaching a new and contrarie doctrine were indeed sent of God Nay certainly we may be most sure that they were not sent of God For sith Almightie God hath by his Sonne planted a Church vpon earth which Church he would haue alwaies continue vntill the worlds end and hath placed in it a visible succession of lawfull ordinarie Pastours whom he will with the assistance of himselfe and his holy Spirit so guide that they shall neuer vniuersally faile to teach the true faith and to preserue the people from errours we are not now to expect any to be sent from God to instruct the people but such onely as come in this ordinarie manner by lawfull succession order and calling according as S. Paule saith Nec quisquam sumit sibi honorem sed qui vocatur à Deo tanquam Aaron Neither doth any man take to himselfe the honour but he that is called of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and with peculiar consecration as we reade in Leuiticus cap. 8. To which accordeth that which we reade 2. Paralip 26. where Azarias said to king Ozias Non est tui officij Ozia vt adoleas incensum Domino sed Sacerdotum hoc est filiorum Aaron qui consecrati sunt ad huiusmodi ministerium egredere de sanctuario c. It is not thy office O Ozias to offer incense to our Lord but it is the office of Priests to wit of the sonnes of Aaron who are consecrated to this function or ministerie go out of the Sanctuarie Which bidding when Ozias contemned and would not obey he was presently stricken with a leprosie and then being terrified feeling the punishment inflicted by our Lord he hastened away as in the same place is declared By which places we may learne that it doth not belong to any one to do priestly functions as to offer incense or sacrifice to God or take vpon them the authoritie to preach and instruct the people but onely to Priests called visibly and consecrated for this peculiar purpose as Aaron and his children were For though the priesthood of the Pastors of the new law be not Aaronicall yet it agreeth with the Priesthood of Aaron according to S. Paul his saying in the foresaid place in this that those that come to it must not take the honor of themselues but must be called vnto it of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and by peculiar consecration In which ordinarie maner whosoeuer cometh he may be truly called Pastor ouium a Pastor of Christs flocke because intrat per ostium he entereth in by the doore to wit by Christ himselfe who first visibly called consecrated and sent immediately the Apostles and the Apostles by authoritie receiued from him did visiblie by imposition of hands call consecrate and send others and those in like manner others from time to time without interruption vntill these present men who now are Priests of the Catholicke Romane Church These therefore enter in by Christ who is the doore and therefore these be true Pastours and whosoeuer entereth not thus in at the doore but commeth in another way our Sauiour telleth vs how we should account of him when he saith Qui non intrat per ostium in ouile ouium
sed ascendit aliunde ille fur est latro He that entreth not in by the doore into the sheepfold but ascendeth by some other way he is a theefe and a robber who commeth not to feed the sheepe but to steale kill and destroy them So that we haue not I say to expect any to be sent of God to feed vs with the food of true doctrine of faith but such onely as come in this ordinarie manner as it is certaine that Luther and Caluin when they left their former profession and tooke vpon them to preach this new faith did not come visibly called consecreated and sent for this purpose by any lawful authority according to the ordinary manner or if it should please God to send any one in extraordinary manner it appertaineth to his prouidence to furnish him with the gift of miracles as he did his Sonne our Sauiour Christ or with a miraculous conceptiō with strange and extraordinary sanctity of life as was seene in S. Iohn Baptist or finally with some euident token that it may be plainly knowne that he is assuredly sent of God Otherwise the people should not be bound to beleeue him but might without sinne reiect his doctrine according as our Sauiour said of himselfe Si non facio opera patris mei nolite credere mihi If I do not the works of my Father do not beleeue me And againe Si opera non secissem in eis quae nemo alius fecit peccatum non haberent If I had not done works among them that no other hath done they should not haue sinned to wit in not beleeuing Nay the people should now an ordinary course being by our Sauiour set downe to continue till the worlds end as before hath bene prooued the people I say should now sinne in beleeuing any one that shall come and tell them that he is extraordinarily sent of God if he teach contrarie to that doctrine which by ordinarie Doctors and Pastors of the Catholicke Church is vniuersally taught For although it should happen that the liues of these Pastors should not be so commendable or be sometimes euidently bad yet their doctrine must alwaies be regarded and obserued according to that saying of our Sauiour Super Cathedram Moysisederunt Scribae Pharisaei omnia ergo quae cunque dixerint vobis seruate facite secundū verò opera eorum nolite facere Vpon the chaire of Moses the Scribes and Pharisees haue sitten all things therefore whatsoeuer they say to you obserue ye and do but according to their workes do ye not By which saying we are assured that notwithstanding the Pastors of the Catholicke Church should at any time in their liues be like Scribes and Pharisies yet we may alwaies safely yea we must necessarily follow their doctrine and must not in any wise admit any that shall offer to teach vs a contrarie doctrine according as we are willed by Saint Paule who saith Si quis vobis euangeliz auerit praeter id quod accepistis anathema sit If any shall euangelize or preach vnto you beside or contrarie to that which you haue alreadie receiued be he anathema So that sith the people did once receiue from the ordinarie Pastors that doctrine which hath descended from hand to hand from Christ and his Apostles themselues according to that of Saint Austin Quod inuenerunt in Ecclesia tenuerunt quod didicerunt docuerunt quod à patribus acceperunt hoc filijs tradiderunt That which they found in the Church they held that which they learned they taught that which they receiued from their fathers that they deliuered to their children whosoeuer he be that shall euangelize any thing opposite to this receiued doctrine whether he seeme to be an Apostle or an Angell and much more if he be another to wit one of these new masters who faile very much to say no more from Apostolicall perfection and Angelicall puritie of life according to Saint Paule anathema sit be he anathema Yea such a one that doth not onely not bring this Catholicke or generally receiued doctrine but bringeth in a new and contrary doctrine we should not according to Saint Iohn salute him vnlesse vpon some need or some good respect or say Aue vnto him and much lesse should we giue credit to his words or vse him as a rule of our faith or preferre his teaching before the teaching of the Catholicke Church And surely me thinkes though there were none of these euident proofes which I haue brought out of Scripture yet euen reason it selfe would teach that we ought to giue more credit to the vniuersall companie of Catholickes which haue bene at all times and are now spred ouer all the Christian world then to any particular priuate man or some few his fellowes and followers It is a prouerbe common amongest all men Vox populi vox Dei The voice of the people or whole multitude is the voice of God that which all men say must needs be And on the contrarie part to that particular man or his priuate company which will oppose themselues against this generall voice of all like Ismael of whom it is written Manus eius contra omnes manus omnium contra cum his hands are against all men and the hands of all are against him it may well be obiected that which Luther who was the first in this our age which did so cōfesseth was obiected to himself by his owne conscience or rather principally by the mercy and grace of the Almightie God seeking to reclaime him from his errour while there was any hope Num tu solùm sapis Art thou onely wise Luthers words be these Quoties mihi palpitauit tremulum cor reprehendens obiecit fortissimum illud argumentum Tu solus sapis Totne errant vniuersi Tanta secula ignorauerunt Quid si tu erres tot tecum in errorem trahas damnandos aeternaliter How often did my trembling heart pant and reprehending me did obiect to me that most strong and forcible argument Art thou alone wise haue there so many vniuersally erred haue so many ages bene blinde and liued in ignorance What rather if thou thy selfe erre and drawest so many after thee into errour who therefore shall be damned eternally This did Almightie God obiect to Luther the which might doubtlesse haue done him good but that he presuming vpon his owne vnderstanding of Scripture and preferring his owne iudgement before the iudgement of the Church hardened his heart against such heauenly inspirations which he tearmed Papisticall arguments And this same may well be obiected to any priuate man or any few who leauing the Kings broad street or beaten hye way of the Catholicke Church will seeke out a by-path as being in their conceit a better easier more direct way to heauen To them I say wel may be said Are you only wise are all the rest in former ages fooles haue you onely after so many hundred
yeares after Christ found out the true faith and the right way to heauen haue all the rest liued in blindnesse darknesse and errour consequently are you onely they that please God and shall be saued for as I haue prooued before without true and entire faith none can be saued and were then all the rest so many millions your owne forefathers and ancestors many of which were most innocent men and vertuous liuers and some of which shed their bloud for Christs sake were I say all these hated of God did all these perish were they all damned shall all these endure vnspeakable paines in hell for euer O impious cruell and incredible assertion Nay surely I am rather to thinke that you are vnwise who pretending to trauell toward the happie kingdome of heauen and to go to that glorious citie the heauenly Ierusalem wil leaue the beaten street in which all those haue walked that euer heretofore went thither who by miracles sometimes as it were by letters sent from thence haue giuen testimonie to vs that remaine behind that they are safely arriued there You I say are vnwise that will leaue this way and will aduenture the liues not onely of your bodies but of your soules in a path found out of late by your selues neuer tracked before in which whosoeuer haue yet gone God knowes what is become of them sith we neuer had letter of miracle or any other euident token or euer heard any word from them to assure vs that they safely passed that way me thinks I may account you most vnwise men that will aduenture such a precious iewell as your soule is to be transported by such an vncertaine and dangerous way I must needs thinke that sith there is but one right way and that the way of the Catholicke Church is a sure and approued safe way you are very vnaduised who with the aduenture of the irreparable losse of your dearest and peerlesse treasure your soule will leaue this safe and secure way to seeke out a new vncertaine and perillous way I must needs think sith the Catholick Romane Church is as I haue proued the light of the world the rule of faith the pillar sure ground of truth that you leauing it leaue the light and therefore walke in darknesse forsaking it forsake the direct path of true faith and therefore are misled in the mist of incredulitie into the wildernesse of misbeleefe and finally that you hauing thus lost the sure ground of truth do fall into the miry ditch of many absurdities and must needs be drowned in the pit of innumerable errors and erring thus from the way the veritie and the life which is Christ Iesus residing according to his promise in the Catholicke Church must needs vnlesse you wil which I hartily wish returne to the vnitie of the same Church incur your owne perdition death and damnation of body and soule from which sweet Iesus deliuer you and vs all to the honor and perpetuall praise of his holy name Amen A. W. To these idle questions of yours I answer first in generall that we may with reason enough perswade our selues that we haue the true faith and true Churches because we see that the very quintessence of Bellarmines sophistry distilled againe in your limbeck is of no force to purge out or alter such perswasion This appeares in the particulars viewed and examined To which I answer seuerally in a word The doctrine of the true Church we gladly admit and receiue yet not vpon the authoritie thereof but because it is agreeable to the Scriptures If you ask vs then why we are perswaded that we haue true faith we returne you answer that we are therefore so perswaded because we finde that which we beleeue auowed in Scripture and confirmed in our hearts by the witnesse of the holy Ghost Hereupon we conclude as well we may that we are members of the true Church our congregations true Christiā churches For wheras you charge some of vs but craftily forbeare to name them with chalenging to our selues the title of the true Church it is a slaunder of yours and no challenge of ours saue only thus far that we affirme there is no true Church which agreeth not with vs in the fundamentall points of the Gospell But we are far frō appropriating the Church to our congregations as if all true Churches depended vpon vs according to that you teach of your Romish synagogue And whereas you condemne vs for no true Churches because we want the markes of true Churches we say that you take those for markes which are not so as you vnderstand them and farther that euery one of them rightly conceiued is to be found in our seuerall congregations It is one because it holdeth that one meanes of saluation preached by the Apostles euen faith in Iesus Christ without mingling of any workes therewith of the ceremoniall or moral law before or after grace to deserue iustification of congruitie or euerlasting life of condignitie The contrary errors held by your synagogue make and proue it to be no true Church But how foolish is the reason you bring against vs The Protestants Church is not one because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie It hath meanes sufficient viz. the truth of the Scriptures and teaching of the spirit of God Put case it wanted meanes to continue vnitie would it follow thereupon that it is not One Surely no more then that a man is not aliue because he hath not means to keepe himselfe aliue Our Church hath had and by the blessing of God hath many holy men and women whose workes haue giuen and dayly do giue cleare testimonies of their inward graces Indeed we want vnholy legendaries to deuise and publish monstrous lies for miracles by which you haue gotten the aduantage of vs in the conceits of them to whom God hath sent strong delusions that they might beleeue lies But wisedome is iustified of her children though you proud Pharises despise her Our doctrine teacheth nothing but holinesse that we were chosen to be holy that we are freed from our sinnes to the end we might sinne no more that we are washed iustified and sanctified by the bloud of Christ buried with him in baptisme that we might die to sinne raised from sinne to righteousnesse by the power of his resurrection that holines of life is a part of our glorie without which no man shall euer see God that he which saith he is iustified and shewes himselfe to be vnsanctified deceiues his owne soule and is in the state of damnation Onely we neither giue the glorie of our saluation to our selues as if by the power of our freewill without speciall inclination thereof by the holy Ghost we had receiued faith which other men haue refused though they might haue embraced it as well as we for ought God did for or to vs more then for or to them nor looke to merit heauen by the worthinesse of our workes as
if it were the wages of seruants and not the inheritance of children The vniuersal Church as you speake of it is a meere name without any thing answerable to it in nature That which was generally held while the Churches of Christ were not subiect to Antichrist concerning the substance of Religion by which true and false Churches are to be iudged we gladly and constantly maintaine The errors which some men defended and corrupted the Churches withall we refute and reiect But it is no marke of the true Church to hold all that hath bene generally maintained in true Churches but the dutie of it to acknowledge for true whatsoeuer was taught by the Apostles and is recorded in Scripture How far our Church is spread it passeth your skill truly to affirme and we may with good reason perswade our selues that it is in all places where the Gospell is preached and the Scriptures knowne because dayly experience sheweth that it hath some members in those countries where your bloudie and tyrannous butchery of Inquisition doth most rule and vnder the nose of your grand Antichrist in the citie of Rome But it is enough to make it Catholicke that it acknowledgeth it selfe to be common both to Iew and Gentile not tied to any country people or person whatsoeuer as yours is to the Pope and Rome We are not ashamed of Martin Luther whom it pleased God to vse admirably if not miraculously to rake from vnder the ashes the light of the Gospell couered and choked with your errors and superstitions Not as if it had bin al that while out of the world but as one of your owne fellowes speakes of it as being in the eclipse ouershadowed and darkned with the thicke mist of your Popish decrees decretals and schoolmens trickes and other such leud trumpery Our Church that is the true Church of Christ was all that time in the world but not to be seene of euery man though from time to time there were still found some who durst maintaine the truth of Christ against your Antichristian heresies Luthers writings words deeds and manner of death were such as might manifest to all men both his true zeale of the glory of God and Gods especiall fauour to him whatsoeuer such lying sycophants as Prateolus faine If we would stand vpon Apostolicknesse in succession what haue you that we want saue onely that you continue in succession of error longer then we do But it is an idle plea to auouch personall succeeding where there is manifest contrarietie in doctrine by which as we heard out of Tertullian howsoeuer you brag of Apostolicknesse you may be proued not to be Apostolicall We differ not in doctrine touching the fundamentall points of Religion from any true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church neither doth your synagogue agree with any such Therfore wheras you demand how we can brag that we haue true faith which is not to be found out of the true Church we answer you as oft we haue done that we are sure the faith we hold is true because it is agreeable to the Scriptures and being so we cannot be out of the true Church as long as we are in the true faith True faith cannot be had by any light or discourse of nature but onely by reuelation from God For neither eye hath seene nor eare hath heard nor the heart of man can imagine what the meanes are whereby God decreed in himselfe to saue those whom he hath chosen to glory Now it was not the purpose of God in these latter times as in the first before the law to reueale his will immediatly from heauen but he sent his Son in the nature of man and that Sonne his Apostles to giue knowledge of those means of saluation both by preaching for that present age wherein they liued and also by writing for that age and all that were to succeed till the end of the world This is all that the Apostle teacheth in the place alledged by you Yet we denie not that the principall ordinary means to bring men to faith is the ministery of man by word of mouth expounding the word wil of God according to the Scriptures First then all men to whom the Scriptures are vouchsafed haue meanes of hearing For in them they may if they will heare men appointed by God speake to their instruction and saluation Secondly the same God hath ordained that besides the former teaching there should be certaine men set apart and deputed for the ministery whose dutie it is to preach in their seuerall charges the word of truth This setting apart deputing is that sending which is now required and is to be performed by such as are shall be authorized to that purpose Thirdly for our particular case we are to vnderstand that Luther and these other worthies by whose ministery it pleased God to reuiue the knowledge of the Gospell decayed were authorized to preach by your congregation which was at that time in apparence the true Church of God Therefore were they sent if your church haue any sending and according to their calling they labored in opening the truth of God as it is reuealed in the Scriptures Thus by the gracious mercie of God it came to passe that they teaching the word of truth found diuers both men and women whose hearts the Lord by his spirit opened so that they embraced the loue of the truth deliuered by them and accepted them for their pastors and submitted themselues to become their flockes By this meanes they had both a generall authoritie to preach from that companie which by profession was the Church and also a particular charge of those who were now become indeed in regard of their professed faith a true Church of God We haue then in our Churches for the late reforming of them first your calling such as it was and secondly the approbation of true Christians of which true Churches consist Therefore by your owne rule since we haue some amongst vs that are sent we may also haue faith and true faith though we abhor your Antichristian heresies To what purpose is this idle discourse but to shew your owne errors We neither looke for nor allow any opinion of extraordinary sending from God because we haue no warrant for any such in the Scriptures But wee say the restorers of the Gospell in this last age had ordinary allowance of that Church which bare the shew of the true Church and professed the beleeuing of the Gospell which is the foundation of the Church But you require peculiar consecration because it pleased God to appoint such a course for the Priesthood of the Law Do you not know that the consecrating and annointing of Aaron was a part of the ceremoniall law signifying the annointing of the spirit which our Sauiour was to receiue to whom according to those shewes the Lord gaue the spirit without measure The consecration that now remaines is nothing but the setting a part
of some men for the worke of the ministerie by prayer and laying on of hands Your example of Oziah is little to the purpose For it had not bene lawfull for him to offer incense though he had bene consecrated with all the ceremonies that belong to the office of the priesthood because the office of offring incense was appropriated by God to the house of Aaron as Azariah signifieth in his speech to Vzziah This appointment of God was their calling the outward ceremonies were but to shadow forth the excellencie of our Sauiour Christs priesthood Neither doth the Apostle prooue the lawfulnesse of Christs priesthood by his consecration answerable to Aarons as your alledging of the place intends but onely by the Lords authorizing of him to that office Christ tooke not to himselfe the honour to be made the high Priest saith the Apostle but he that said vnto him Thou art my sonne this day begat I thee gaue it him As he also in an other place speaketh Thou art a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech what word is there here of our Sauiours consecration You proceed to heape error vpon error to the preiudice of Gods truth and destruction of his people If euery man be to be held for a true Pastor and as such a one to be beleeued if he haue an orderly admission and allowance to teach had not Arius Nestorius Eutyches Macedonius and many other heretickes lawfull ordination according to the custome of the Churches in those times Yea were not Luther Bucer Martyr authorized by your Church and Caluin too as you say afterward when you accuse Luther and him for leauing their former profession Come no hirelings in by the doore if lawfull outward admission be the doore How many that enter lawfully become wolues afterward I know this saith Saint Paul to the Ephesians that after my departure grieuous wolues shall enter in among you not sparing the flocke Moreouer of your owne selues shall men arise speaking peruerse things Who can doubt but some of these might be euen of the number of them who were lawfully admitted by imposition of hands and prayer the onely meanes of consecration in those times before your shauing and greasing was heard of in the Church But you ignorantly or wilfully abuse that place of the Euangelist by applying it to the ordinary ministerie of the Gospell whereas it belongeth to the office of the Messiah and the calling that hee had from God to bee the great shepheard of our soules All that came before him professing themselues to be the Messiah as Iudas and Theudas did were theeues and robbers entring not in by the doore that is by commission from God but coming in another way by their counterfetting of a pattent from God Neither was the preseruation of the people but their owne aduancement the marke they shot at But the true shepheard Iesus Christ came to giue his life for his sheepe that they might be saued This is the true sense of that worthy sermon which if we will apply to ministers they must be held for true Pastors which being authorized thereunto do preach Christ Iesus truly without mingling any such doctrines as may by any meanes draw vs from the acknowledging or resting vpon him for saluation He that so teacheth and is authorized thereunto commeth in by Christ the doore especially if he haue withall a true desire to feed the flock committed to him in the sinceritie of his heart But if you stand onely vpon outward calling the Priests and Leuits wanted it not who yet were theeues because they endeuored to steale away the hearts of the sheepe from Christ the true shepheard That which followeth of the necessitie of miracles or extraordinarie sanctitie concernes not vs who pleade not any extraordinarie sending Luther was appointed by your Church to preach the Gospel That duty according to his calling he faithfully performed neuer requiring to be credited because he was extraordinarily sent by God but because he taught that which God had left in the Scriptures for the instruction and edification of his Church in all ages till the end of the world What neede was there now of miracles or any other extraordinarie course The places you bring wee answered before The vniuersall consent of Pastors and Doctors in that they teach hath bene found to be but a crooked rule to measure truth by though we are perswaded that the world was neuer without some that held and taught so much of the truth as is absolutely necessary to saluation But that is vniuersally or generally taught which is the common doctrine of ordinary teachers howsoeuer some one or two here and there may be of a contrarie opinion How farre the Scribes and Pharisies were to be heard it appeared before where this place was alledged and answered Surely he that charged his Disciples to take heede of the leauen of the Pharisies and called them fooles and blinde would neuer commaund them to take their doctrine for the rule of truth Neither could Saint Paule meane that euerie man should be accursed who taught at any time otherwise then men commonly beleeued he speaketh not a word of any common consent in teaching and he knew that there was to be a generall Apostacy but his meaning was that they should hold him for accursed that deliuered any other doctrine of saluation how generally so euer it were taught then that which he himselfe had preached to thē But of this also before I hope you are not so mad as to imagine that any man will beleeue that Saint Austin so many hundred yeares ago prophesied that your Pastors and Doctors should from time to time teach nothing else generally but that which had in his daies descended from hand to hand from Christ and his Apostles Or do you thinke it would prooue a good reason to say Austin affirmeth that Ambrose and other learned men who liued in the first 400. yeares held that which they found in the Church and taught that which they had learned Therefore it cannot be that since his time other men haue preached or written otherwise But be like this place was alledged by you rather for ornament and shew then for proofe or vse and so let it passe Though there were no other reason to make vs mislike your Church yet this were cause enough of doubt that the foundation whereon you build it in this Treatise and the like is so weake and vncertaine We must beleeue you because you are the Church Who saith so Your selues But you will prooue it by Scripture How shall I know that you bring to be Scripture The Church telleth you so Shall I laugh at you or pitie you You are the Church because the Scripture saith so The Scripture is Scripture to vs because you say so Were the Galathians so senslesse as they that beleeue such absurd fooleries Or is it possible that any
so long that few find leisure to reade them p. 7. Authority how a meanes to beget faith p. 60. One man of authoritie and learning drawes many atter him p. 121. B To beleeue in Christ what it is p. 26. To beleeue the Catholick Church what it is p. 156. We do not beleeue in y e church because that were to equal it with God p 157. They that truly beleeue in Christ shall not erre out of the way that leadeth to euerlasting life p. 232. Beleefe how wrought p 362. No man is forced to beleeue p. 361 362. No man withheld from beleeuing by God p. 58. A man may deliuer the truth and himselfe not beleeue p. 112. Beleeuing expresly implicitè p. 44 45. To beleeue that is to assent is not in the power or choice of mans will p. 40. For what reason we must beleeue or assent to the truth p. 30. 31. 42. 43. 47. True beleeuers cannot be separated frō Christ by death p. 167. Misbeleeuing and obstinately not beleeuing differ much p. 39. Misbeleeuing how far daminable p. 51. Obstinatly not beleeuing how not dam nable p 39. 40. 49. Refusing to beleeue against conscience alwayes damnable p. 40. 41. C Catharin foresaw the Councell of Trent would be misunderstood p 323. Catholick what it signifieth p. 280. 281. Few ordinarie Papists know 280. What the Catholike Church is why so called p. 280. 283. 284. 285. 286. 374. Not all one with Romane p. 7. As Papists vnderstand it a meere name p. 187. 199. 373. 407. Said to be Catholicke in sixe respects p. 281. In respect of al places persons p. 285. Catholicknesse seldome taken for vniuersalitie of time 281. 373. No particular Church Catholick as Papists vnderstand Catholick p. 3. The Church before our Sauiours comming not Catholicke as the Papists teach p 281. The Catholicke Church continueth frō Adam to the end of the world p. 160 164. 281. The church not called Catholick by any autor within the first 200. years p. 283. No man called a Catholick in the Apostles time p. 282. The word Catholicke not vsed in the Scriptures p. ead The title Catholicke not giuen to any of the Epistles by the Apostles themselues p. ead The teaching of the Catholicke Church the rule of faith p. 61. 151. Teaching contrary to the Catholicke Church how farre accursed p. 106. The Catholick Church is as wel in heauen as in earth p. 6. 8. Not visible p. 209. The Protestāts church Catholick p. 408. The Church what it is pag. 6. 10. 26. 71. 150. 169. 170. 175. 199. 225. 393. Not the Clergie onely p. 71. 123. 131. Papists define it with relatiō to the Pope of Rome p. 200. A Councel of Bishops y e Popish Church p. 136. 150. All professors are not the true Church 177. The congregation and gouernours are properly the Church where they liue p. 148. 227. Diuers significations of y e word Church 127. 128. see Ecclesia All beleeuers p. 120. 210. The elect beleeuers liuing in the world p. 201. 210. Generally a companie assembled or not assembled p. 210. Where the Church is to be sought p. 61. To be knowne only by y e scriptures p. 56 How it is to be knowne p. 221. How the pillar and ground of truth pa. 151. 152. Built and founded vpon the truth p 154. The faith therof how far to be enquired after p. 14. The authoritie thereof how farre to be yeelded to p. 45. 50 54. 91. 111. 151. 246. 250. 275. A maine delusion and needlesse p. 67. 72 90. 104. 238. 239. Cannot make that damnable which is not so of it selfe p. 49. Increaseth the sinne of not beleeuing when it determineth truly p. 49. Not spoken of in the old testament p. 97 How far commended to vs by the Scripture p. 96. 97. How Austin was moued to beleeue by the authoritie of the Church p. 93. The authoritie of the Church is great in matters not to be decided by scripture p. 95. 96. 155. 250. The testimonie and authoritie thereof is but humane p. 242. 243. What it is for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church p. 249. Not to heare the Church p. 147. All Churches may erre p. 6. 46. 135. What is necessary to the being of a true Church p. 239. Many reprobates are members thereof according to the Papists p 164. Outward profession enough to make a man a mēber thereof according to y e Papists pa. 23. 123. 224. 264. 272. 350. Why we ought to seeke for and ioyne our selues to a true Church p. 219. 234. Gods true publicke worship cannot ordinarily be performed but in a true Church p. 219. The Church not holding the foundatiō of y e Apostles doctrine is to be left p. 14 Truth of doctrine in points fundamental a certaine marke of a true church p 240. 249. Succession to the Apostles in doctrine makes Churches Apostolicke p. 301. Was neuer without some diuersitie of opinions among the learned p. 311. The Church erred in diuers points within the first six hūdred years p. 163. How it is one p. 158. 160. 201. 215. 263. 264. 266. 284. 309. 318. The Protestants Church is one p. 406. Adam Abel Enoch c. were of the Protestants Church p. 341. 353. No writer within the first thousand yeres agrees with the Papists of the Councell of Trent in all points p. 341. The Popish Church hath not yet determined all points p. 14. 375. The Church y t ignorant Papists beleeue is a Priest or a Iesuit p. 15. 16. 17. 71. The Papists circle of the Scripture the Church p. 72. 91. 244. 246. 261. 413 How a whole Church may be counted holy 271. Many thousands neuer had knowledge of any Church p 55 No man can certainly know that there is any true Church but by the Scriptures p 244. The Church hath properly to do with none but Christians p. 90. 193. The Church was confined to Africke by the Donatists p. 3. 173. 216. 288. It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church p. 212. What it is to sit in Moses chaire p. 140. 141. Who are meant by the Church beleeued in the Creed p. 157. 158. 168. 175 210. The elect called are properly the church p. 158. 159. 165. 168. 211. 212. 213. 217 265. That Church is not visible p. 174. 177. To that onely is continuance promised p. 217. The continuance of the Church dependeth vpō her being ioyned to Christ p. 168. The Church in the Apostles time did not alwayes hold the same points of faith p. 310. To beleeue in the Church were to equal it with God p. 157. The ceremonies before Christ were not continued without interruption pag. 170. 227. Communion with a Church may be refused by ignorance without pride p. 275. Confession to a minister neither commanded nor forbidden by Protestant Churches p. 342. Popish confession rather prouokes men to sinne then restraines them from it 342. 343. Credere Ecclesiam and Credere Ecclesiae
not all one but diuers p. 156. Credere Deum Credere in Deum differ very much p. 156. The perpetuall couenant p. 178. Christians how called Saints p. 349. What makes a man cease to be a Christian p. 273. There is no constraint vsed toward the will either in good or in euill pag. 344. How Constraint and Necessitie differ p. 344. 345. Councels may erre p. 260. Are hard to be vnderstood and may be misunderstood p. 11. 12. 323. Are bound to vse all meanes of disputation to find out the truth p. 13. Deliuer some things as probable coniectures p. 12. The course that hath bene and must alwayes be held by Popish generall Councels p. 330. Whether the Councell be aboue the Pope or no it is not determined p. 14 15. 375. The Councell hath often deposed the Pope 324. 325. The Councell of Constance makes the Pope subiect to the decrees of Councels p. 325. The Councell of the Elders among the Iewes p. 148. D What it is to denie Christ p. 190. 191. Alwayes damnable p. 190. Most deuotion in Popery where there is least vnderstanding p. 27. Disputation about points of Diuinitie necessary p. 13. Dissention among Papists about matters of faith p. 321. 322. 324. Bellarmine dissents in one point or other from almost all learned Papists before him p. 319. Euery dissent in opiniō makes not churches cease to be churches or holy p. 273. Dissention is better then maintaining of false doctrine or worship p. 319. Doubting of some points how it ouerthrowes not religion p. 50. How farre the doctrine of one that is lawfully sent may be examined pa. 253. E 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what it signifieth p. 128. Any assembly pag. ead Especially about matters of religion p. ead Generally all beleeuers p. 129. 201. 210. Particularly seuerall congregations p. 129. How arguments may be drawne from those places where the word is vsed p. 129. 130. Ecclesiasticall gouernours to be obeyed when they commaund that which is right p. 37. The Elect before the coming of Christ were chosen ordinarily out of the Iews since out of the Gentiles p. 207. The Elect onely are truly called p. 210. 211. May fall into grieuous sin and yet not cease to be elect p. 211. England not conuerted but peruerted by Austin the monke p. 377. Popish errors crept in by little and little vnperceiued p. 382. 383. 387. F Diuers significations of faith p. 6. 22. 28. Faith is absolutely necessary to saluatiō p. 22. 25. 26. Faith for assent to the truth what it is p. 35. 319. May be had without the autoritie of the Church p. 104. 113. Is in some greater in some lesse p. 31. Goeth before iustifying faith p. 33. Is accompanied with doubting p. 32. 33 Perfection thereof is to be labored for p. 32. Is tied to the Scripture not to y e church p. 46. May come by the preaching of the schismaticks or heretickes p. 34. Not to be built on the testimonie of man p. 329. How it is one p. 30. 31. 47. 51. Entire and infallible faith necessarie to saluation p. 73. How faith may be begotten p. 25. 26. 33 34. 60. 66. 75. 76. 113. 114. 235. Is to be learned of the Ministers not of the Church p. 234. Matters of faith according to Poperie 311. 320. Are indeede to be proued by scripture p. 250. 319. 320. Fundamentall points of faith p. 40. 239. Obstinately not beleeuing them damnable p. 40. No matter of faith according to Poperie till within these last 800 yeares 320. 321. All popish faith dependeth vpon the authoritie of the Church p. 25. The rule of faith what properties it must haue p. 61. 63. 64. 94. 108. Easinesse to be vnderstood no propertie of the rule p. 74 94. How farre the rule need be vnderstood p. 65 94. All truth must be prooued by the rule p. 84. 87. 115. What points the rule must resolue and how farre p. 84. Naturall wit and learning cannot be the rule of faith p. 98 99 100. No priuate spirit can be the rule of faith 105. The teaching of the Catholicke Church the rule of faith p. 61. 122. 42. He that hath Popish faith may be damned p. 23. Iustifying faith what it is p. 24. It is in the wil. p. 33. The iust liues by faith and where there is faith there is life p. 273. Liuely faith may be in him that is ignorant or misinstructed in many points p 274. The foundation of the Apostles doctrin is ouerthrowne by Poperie p. 375. Fasting not condemned but especially commended by Protestants p. 342. A Popish fast may be kept with gluttonie and drunkennesse p. 342. 366. The interpretations of the Fathers reuerenced by the Protestants p. 80. Frieries and monasteries p. 357. Saint Francis fiue wounds p. 358. G God calleth all men from damnation p. 56. Decreed all things that are or shal come to passe p. 345. Worketh not alike in good and euill actions p. 345. The glorie of God is the end of all religion p. 290. 296. The heathen had one soueraigne God aboue all the rest p. 387. To whom the rest were mediators of intercession for their fauorites as the Popish Saints are p. 387. How we may know that there is a gospell p. 245. The doctrine of the Gospell is simply necessarie to saluation not the books of the foure Gospels p. 243. The Gospell hung about the necke for a preseruatiue p. 78. Many nations in Austins time had not heard the Gospell p. 55. The Fathers thought the world should end presently after the preaching of the Gospell in all places p. 55. Many thousands died in the Apostles time ere they could by any meanes heare of the Gospell p. 181. 182. 183. H Herefie what it is p. 220. A worke of the flesh p. 52. 118. May be more generall for a time then true religion p. 293. No man can certainly know how long any heresie shall continue p. 293. Heresies spring from misunderstanding the Scripture p. 119 300. May by it be conuinced p. 119. Great hereticks haue had lawfull calling to the ministerie p. 36. 411. Hereticks pleade all for themselues that Papists do p. 119. They that refuse to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture are hereticks p. 220. Some hereticks haue continued a long time in one and the same doctrine p. 263. Hereticks may be free from all grosse outward sinne p. 275. The first 400. yeares were most fruitfull in monstrous heresies p. 305. Some hereticall Churches may be true Churches p. 219. Some heretickes could pleade personall succession from the Apostles p. 299. Any hereticall Church may haue as good meanes to end controuersies as the Church of Rome hath p. 313. Holinesse whence it springeth p. 21. 360. Onely true inward holinesse can make a man a true Christian p. 269. Holinesse is resident onely in seuerall persons not in a companie p. 270. 249. Is inuested in the Popes person p. 356. I Comparison betwixt heathenish Popish Idolatrie p. 386. 387. Distinction
of Idoll and Image p. 386. Papists worship the Image it selfe p. 386. No religious vse of any Image to be allowed p. 360. Ignorance the strength of Poperie p. 4. 70. All ignorance is not heresie p. 50. How it shuts men out from saluation p. 40. 44 49. 50. 274. Ignorance can excuse no man the Gospell being preached euerie where p. 113. Ieconiah childlesse p. 39. K 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 283. The keyes and power to bind and loose common to all the Apostles p. 325. 326. Why kings are called humane creatures p. 274. He refuseth not to be subiect to the king that doth not absolutely obey him in all things p. 275. L The Lawe cannot be kept perfectly p. 363. How it is not gricuous p. 363. One learned mans iudgement oftentimes drawes many to it p. 250. The Leuen of the Pharisies what it is p. 37. 141. No life but in the bodie of Christ p. 273 The light must shine to them that are in the house p. 182. The loue of God whence it ariseth p. 20 Is not alike to all p. 257. M Gregory Martins eauils were answered long since p. 69. Markes of the Church p. 221. 222. 226. 259. Must be proper to it always p. 222. 280. Easier to be knowne then the Church it selfe p. 222. 223. True doctrine in the fundameÌ„tal points is a sure marke of the Church p. 228. 229. 301. 374. 375. The Masse was brought in by peece meale p. 384. Ouergreat zeale of Martyrdome p. 189 Messiah not Salomons sonne p. 39. The ministery not the authority of men is vsed to beget faith p. 6. 19. 234. 243 244. Needful for the instruction of the ignorant p. 98. No charge practise or warrant for any vniuersal ministery since the Apostles time p. 179. Luthers preuailing in his ministery and his preseruation wanted litle of a miracle p. 355. Ministers to be heard so farre as they speake according to the Scriptures p. 36. 112. 137. 142. 146. Yet lesse danger not to heare them so speaking then not to heare the Apostles p. 43 112. Origen preached before he was a Minister p. 35. Antichrists miracles p. 114. 352. Miracles are often counterfetted p. 352. 358. Preferred before the authoritie of the Church p. 114. The vse of miracles is to confirme doctrine not to testifie of holinesse pa. 172. 351. There neuer was any true miracle wrought for confirmation of false doctrine p. 115. Miracles are not to be beleeued for any doctrine against Scripture p. 115. False miracles cannot alwayes be discerned by men p. 115. 352. 353. Luther and Caluin did not attempt the working of miracles p. 355. N A naturall man what he is p. 61. 236. Absurdly called sensuall pa. 60. 61. 236. 237. May vnderstand the Scripture though not beleeue it to saluation p. 236. Necessitie not constraint taught by Protestants p. 344 345. P Papists treason Nouemb. 5. 1605. pa. 8. 346. 347. 379. The wickednesse of Papists testified by their owne writers p. 340. 346. Papists rest vpon the Pope and Councels p. 51. 312. Are Pharisaicall boasters p. 338. 363. No Papist holding the authoritie of the Church and the impossibilitie of the Popes erring can be a good Christian or a faithfull subiect p. 72. Papists not sonnes of God but seruants of the law p. 343. 364. Papists count murdering of Princes a meritorious worke p. 361. Outward peace is not so tâ—â—ch worth as that for it the Church should be corrupted with errors p. 312. Must be prouided for by the ciuill magistrate p. 312. Saint Peter the Popes Lord. p. 388. Why our Sauiour prayed especially for him p. 326. Why hee asked him thrice if hee loued him p. 327. Peters accepting of the soueraigntie a poore proofe of his loue to Christ p. 327. His superioritie was in respect of age p. 315. It is vncertaine whether euer he were at Rome or no. p. 328. 393. The Pope the Papists Lord God p. 112. How he came to his height p. 382. Head of the Church though he beleeue not in heart p. 23. He that is no Christian may be Pope of Rome 23. 111. The Pope cannot erre p. 71. Can shew no charter for his not erring p. 37. 71. 72. May erre by the iudgement of Papists p. 323. Euen with a generall Councell p. 330. 331. It is not determined that the Pope alone cannot erre p. 320. Pope Iohn 22. doubted of the immortalitie of the soule p. 111. Pope Leo 10. counted the historie of Christ a fable p. 111. Many Popes haue bene found to be Apostataes from the faith p. 323 324. Many decrees of Popes are contrarie one to another p. 324. Pius 5. and Clement 8. â—â—â—olue concerning the words of consecration contrary to the Councell of Trent pag. 324. Popish religion cannot hold vp the head without the Popes authoritie p. 108. The Pope appoints the holy Ghost an office of his owne deuising p. 388. Our Sauiour and his Apostles hid themselues from persecutors p. 186. No necessitie to worship God publikly in time of persecution p. 190. 191. The Pharises were blind guides p. 249. To what purpose our Sauiors perpetual presence serueth p. 132. Predestination doth not take away free will p. 361. Without true beleefe of predestination and iustification there can hardly be any true religion p. 290. Prayer for the dead p. 96. How euery one that prayeth receiueth p. 116 117. Preaching the ordinarie means of faith p. 113. 409. No man might haue preached the Gospell without warrant from God pag. 113. How Luther may bee said to haue first preached Christ p. 392. Pride in opposition against a matter of doctrine is sometimes in a sanctified man p. 274. What outward profession of religion is how farre necessarie p 188 189 192. What it is to confesse with the mouth p. 191. False Prophets to be knowne by their doctrine p. 36. How all prophesies in the scripture are alwayes true p. 206. Purgatorie ends with the world p. 365 Q Questions of religion how to be decided pag. 61 R Reason how farre it may be required in points of diuinitie p. 16. 17. 18. Light of reason caÌ„not find out all things necessarie to saluation p. 25. The reason of Gods counsel and doings is oftentimes hid from men p 204. Nothing against reason is to be beleeued without warrant froÌ„ God p. 244. The religion of the Popish Church at this day is fetched from the Councell of Trent p. 358. 377. Our Sauiour did not pray that the reprobate might be one with his father and him p. 264. Reuelation of the spirit required by the Papists to beleeue that the Scriptures are the word of God p. 245. The Church of Rome sometimes a true Church p. 338. Rome was not built in a day p 382. S What is absolutely necessary to saluatioÌ„ p. 46. 55. 59. 65. 77. 188. 243. 319. Assurance of saluation p. 150. 354. Sufficient meanes of saluation prouided for euery man p. 53. 55. 58. Euery man hath not the meanes p. 57.
intēded by the holy Ghost at the least in many places it cannot be the Apostles meaning that no man knoweth the sense of our Lord in the Scripture But the more you mistake the sense of the holy Ghost in Scripture the better you proue your opinion that no naturall wit or learning can bring a man to the vnderstanding thereof onely you must take heed of ouerweening your owne wit and learning and so of erring by drawing a generall conclusion against all men from your owne defect which also perhaps is not so much for want of wit or learning as for lacke of paines taking and because of a preiudicate conceit against the truth A. D. §. 4. Hence I inferre that those who for matters of faith relie wholy either vpon their owne priuate opinion or iudgement of the sense and meaning of Scripture or vpon the learning and iudgement of others who are but men not infallibly assisted by the holy Ghost nor by him vnfallibly preserued from errour as many or rather all Protestants do those I say cannot haue diuine and Christian faith but onely fallible opinion and humane faith As before I granted your conclusion that naturall wit and learning cannot be the rule of faith so I now acknowledge the truth of your illation which you bring in thereupon that he which relieth wholly vpon his owne priuate opinion or any other mans iudgement can haue no true faith Yet must I again remember that to rely vpon such opinion or iudgement is to take that for truth which is taught barely vpon the credit of the teacher For otherwise a man may haue a true faith that is a certain and infallible assent to the truth though he beleeue vpon euident reason those points interpretations which are proued to him by men without any infallible authoritie of the Church But whereas you charge many or rather all Protestants to rely so vpon the iudgement of men I hope you do it without the authoritie of your Church that cannot erre for I am sure you do it without any shew of truth No Protestant of any discretion not onely not all beleeueth the doctrine of the Gospell in generall or any one particular interpretation as a matter of faith vpon any mans credit whatsoeuer This reuerence indeed we giue to our teachers that we rather trust their iudgement then our owne and dare not dissent from them but where we haue great likelihood of reason at least to the contrary Howsoeuer we ground no point of faith vpon any interpretation which is not plaine and euident to any man that will take paines to examine it according to true reason A. D. CHAP. IX That a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith A. W. A man may easily perceiue that you chuse to say any thing rather then nothing and therefore you make your selfe worke Chapter after Chapter I shall not need to repeate that which I haue noted before this Chapter giueth sufficient euidence of that I say What a strange kind of speech is this that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith No spirit neither priuate nor publick is ordinarily the rule of faith no not the most holy spirit of God but onely as he speaketh in the Scripture who alwayes teacheth one and the same truth publickly and priuately A. D. §. 1. The third conclusion is that no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit can be this rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church A. W. This is the interpretation of the title of your Chapter No priuate spirit that is no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit c. I cannot tel whether I shold thinke you haue forgotten to speake English or purposely affect as strange doctrine so strange speech also To be singularly instructed with vs plaine Englishmen is to be taught in rare and excellent sort not to be apart or seuerally alone instructed which is your meaning I grant mens priuat opinions are called singular and the men themselues that haue such conceits are also so termed but he that professeth plainnesse to teach all kind of men should labour to speake so that all might vnderstand him But to the matter Whose opinion is it that any such man as you conceit or any man at all can be the rule of faith Sure not ours who as it hath often bene said giue this honour only to the word of God If any man hold that opinion vnlesse perhaps the senslesse Anabaptists with whom we haue nothing to do you are they who as it seemeth by the exception you adde grant that with limitation a man may be the rule of faith For you say he cannot be the rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church Do you not imply in this speech that so farre forth as he agreeth with the doctrine of the Catholick Church he may be the rule of faith But I obserue one rare thing in your course of disputing that you ordinarily propound your matter in such sort that you are faine presently after to make one exception or other Scripture alone say you cannot be the rule of faith is this all you meane No a limitation followeth Especially as it is translated by Protestants into English No naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith What by no meanes except they be infallibly assisted by the holy spirit of God In this Chapter we haue the like course held by you But leaue we this and be take our selues to consider your proofe A. D. §. 2. This I proue first because Saint Paul saith Si quis vobis euangelizauerit praeter id quod accepistis Anathemasit pronouncing generally that whosoeuer teacheth or preacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church should be held Anathematized or accursed A. W. Your reason is thus to be framed He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith First I desire all men to obserue that this argument of yours doth not proue that a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith but onely so farre forth as he doth disagree from the doctrine of the Church otherwise for all this reason he may be Wherein you speake absurdly and falsly Absurdly in propounding such a question to refute as neither we whom you professe to refute nor any reasonable man would euer once imagne viz. that a priuate spirit teaching an vntruth might be the rule of faith For how can that be but an vntruth which is contrary to that the Apostle deliuered by his preaching
who was as able and as carefull to speake so that all whom it concerned might vnderstand him as the holiest of your Councels or Popes I can hardly perswade my selfe that any man of learning let him be neuer so Catholicke as you tearme him can beleeue that the Pope alone or the Pope and a Councell cannot erre But it is an opinion deuised and retained in politicke discretion to keepe things in an outward quietnesse to aduance the estate of your Cleargie I may not enter into the discussing of this priuiledge you claime for it would aske much time and a long discourse but I wil touch it as farre as you giue me necessarie occasion and so proceed to that which followeth And first concerning the Popes owne person which seemeth to be your best plea being alledged in the first place and almost wholly stood vpon you cannot be so ignorant as not to know that diuers learned men on your side confesse and maintaine that the Pope may erre Many Popes saith Lyra haue bene found to haue bene Apostataes from the faith The Pope saith Catharin may erre and fall vtterly from the faith And although in his second conclusion he tels vs that the Pope as Pope that is sitting you call it ex Cathedra out of his chaire and lawfully according to the rite of vsing the key of knowledge particularly committed to him determining a matter of faith cannot erre so that he shall define any thing against faith yet he addeth afterward that the Pope may decree by way of a commaundement or Law some false or vniust thing so that saith he there are many decrees of Popes found to be diuers and contrarie one to another And can euerie learned man thinke you iudge which decrees the Pope made as Pope and which as a man What idle and vncertaine fooleries are these distinctions I do not beleeue saith Alfousus that the Pope hath any flatterer so impudent to grant him this prerogatiue that he can neuer erre nor be deceiued in expounding Scripture I haue learned of the schoole Doctors saith a late Archbishop of yours that any Pope may erre as a Doctor or as a man but not as a Iudge And this he speaketh of a decree of Pope Eugenius the fourth which many Diuines as himselfe confesseth take to be a decree of the Councell of Florence Yet Bishop Catharin boldly affirmeth that there are many things in the said decree which if they be strictly taken and according to the proper meaning of the words wil be found to be false and therefore as he saith need a fauourable interpretation Yea the same Archbishop is not afraid to refute as he pretendeth by the authoritie of the Councell of Trent the iudgement and determination of three Popes Eugenius the fourth Clemens the eight and Pius the fift the two last hauing set out their Missals since the Councell of Trent and yet as he thinketh resoluing concerning the words of consecration contrarie to the iudgement of the Councell It may appeare also by his Epistle dedicatorie that a fourth Pope Sixtus the fift to whom he writeth that Treatise was of the same opinion in that matter with those his predeceslors from whom the Archbishop maketh bold to dissent as he doth from Thomas of Aquine and all his followers But what name I priuate men although excellently learned Let vs heare a whole generall Councell speake We condemne and depose saith the Councell of Basil Pope Eugenius a despiser of the holy Canons a disturber of the peace and vnitie of the Church of God a man notoriously scandalous to the vniuersall Church a Symoniack a for sworne man incorrigible aschismaticke fallen from the faith and an obstinate heretick And for the auowing of this their act they speake thus in another place We haue heard and read that many Popes haue fallen into error and heresie it is certaine that the Pope may erre The Councell hath often condemned and deposed the Pope both for his heresie in faith and his leudnesse in life I might adde hereunto the authoritie of the Councel of Constance which bindes the Pope to be obedient to the decrees of Councels But that which I haue said may suffice to shew that all learned Papists do not know the Pope cannot erre But you vndertake to proue they do know it because of certaine places of Scripture wherein our Sauiour makes a promise of not erring to Peter and his successors To all which I answer in generall that those learned men and Councels before alledged did know that these places were brought to proue the Popes priuiledge of not erring and notwithstanding held it for an vndoubted truth that he might erre you may beare with vs then though we make question of it In particular I answer to the places alledged concerning Saint Peters priuiledge The keyes signifie nothing but power to open and shut heauen to bind and loose by retaining or remitting the sins of men The plaine sense of those words saith Bellarmine is this that first the authoritie is promised or the power noted out by the keyes then the actions and office are expounded by those words to bind and loose And in the verse before he finds fault with Caietan for endeuouring to stretch that grant to I know not what farther matter I forbeare to set downe any proofe of this exposition because it is cleare enough of it selfe if we compare this promise with the performance of it in Iohns Gospell Receiue the holy Ghost saith our Sauiour whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer ye retaine they are retained Secondly I say that this power was not peculiar to Peter but common to him with all the Apostles yea with all ministers who are their successors in preaching the Gospell shutting and opening binding and loosing Wee affirme saith Bellarmine that in those words Math. 18. which are of the same nature with the other Math. 16. nothing is graunted but onely it is there declared and foretold what power the Apostles and their successors were to haue Those things saith Maldonatus that are here promised to Peter agree not onely to him but to all Apostles Bishops and Priests Whereupon Theophylact saith that although it was said to Peter onely I will giue thee the keyes yet the keyes were granted to all the Apostles when when he said whose sins you forgiue Therefore this promise of giuing the keyes conueyes no other priuiledge to Peter then to all the Apostles yea to all true ministers of the Gospell by the iudgement of your owne Iesuits But Christ prayed especially for Peter that his faith might not faile And good reason not without need for he knew that Satan would tempt him shreudly and giue him a fouler foyle then euer he gaue any of his other Apostles Yet Austin brings in our Sauiour speaking in generall I haue prayed the Father
for you all that your faith might not faile As for your Glosse that our Sauiour prayed for him that his faith should not faile at least so far as to teach the Church a false faith what one word is there in the text to anow any such conceit Beside it is apparent that our Sauiour spake not of his Apostleship but of his faith as he was a Christian wherein he had failed finally if our Sauiour had not mightily vpheld him and in this faith was he fit to confirme his brethren as hauing had so extraordinary experience of Satans temptation But if this prayer were made for Peter that he might not teach false doctrine belike either he was more subiect to that danger then the rest of the Apostles or they were left by our Sauiour in a continuall danger of erring which opinion is a very neare neighbour to blasphemie But what a pitifull consequence is this Our Sauiour prayed that Peters faith might not faile therefore the Pope cannot erre All the hold you haue left is in the charge giuen to Peter to feede Christs sheepe that is to be painfull and faithfull in preaching of the Gospell And this interpretation is agreeable to reason that our Sauiour requiring a proofe of Peters loue should charge him to make it manifest by taking paines to feede his sheepe But your exposition is absurd whereby you would haue liuery and seisin of soueraigne authoritie in the Church giuen to him by these words If thou loue me saith our Sauiour according to your exposition take vpon thee the soueraigne gouernement of the Church This were a poore proofe of Peters loue which is there demaunded You will say the charge of feeding was common to all the Apostles but here the Lord speaketh particularly to Peter He doth indeed And do you not see the reason of it Peter because of his grieuous fall had need of such a charge both for his better autorizing and his greater care He speakes chiefly to Peter saith your frier Ferus and to him escecially commends his sheepe that he might vtterly abolish the remembrance of his deniall For because he had fallen more grieuously then the other and had more obstinately denied Christ he stood in need of peculiar charge lest by the remembrance of his deniall he might suspect that the common charge of the Apostleship belonged not to hm He remedies his denying thrice by his confessing thrice saith Theophylact the like hath Austin Peter blatted out his three denial saith Ierome by his three confessions So then all that you haue said of Peters not erring in matter of doctrine is nothing worth yet do we thankfully acknowledge that Peter could not erre in matter of faith but we say that this was no priuiledge peculiar to him but common also to the other Apostles by vertue of their Apostleship Wherein if no man succeed them as questionlesse there are now no Apostles no man can claime a priuiledge of not erring by any right from them or any promise made to them It is needlesse therefore to make many words concerning any successor of S. Peter onely I will signifie how vncertaine your Religion must needs be that depends vpon such points as these You tell vs the Pope cannot erre We beleeue you not because we know he is at the best but a learned man oftentimes not so much sometimes scarce able to vnderstand his grammer You proue he cannot erre because he is Peters successor We deny the consequence Because he may succeed Peter in place and yet not in office of Apostleship whereby Peter had that priuiledge But principally we deny your antecedent that the Pope is Peters successor Now we looke for some certain euident proofe But alas there is none to be had We therfore thus except against this imagined succession First we say there is no word of scripture to proue that euer Peter came at Rome How then can it be a matter of faith to hold that he was Bishop of Rome Do not say you must beleeue the Church for the question is whether you be the true Church or no. Secondly we say farther that it is somewhat vncertaine euen in humane stories whether euer Peter were at Rome or no and if it were certaine yet it were nor a certaintie of faith but of opinion But that the force of your argument and the truth of my answer may the better appeare I wil propound your reason in forme and my exceptions against it Peters successor cannot erre The Pope is Peters successor Therefore the Pope cannot erre To the Maior I answer that he which succeeds Saint Peter in his whole right or in all his priuiledges and namely that of his Apostleship cannot erre but any other successor of his may erre because his priuiledge of not erring is a propertie of his Apostleship The proofe of your Maior is thus to be framed He to whom the keyes are promised for whom Christ prayed that his faith might not faile whom he charged to feed his sheepe cannot erre But to Peters successor Christ promised the keyes for him he prayed that his faith might not faile him he charged to feed his sheepe Therefore Peters successor cannot erre I denie the Maior if you take it in such sense as though the power of not erring had bene conueyed to Peter by reason of this promise prayer and charge otherwise notwithstanding by him Peter I grant that he to whom this promise was made that is Peter could not erre yet was he not free from errour by vertue of this promise prayer or charge as I shewed before The Minor is vtterly false the promise was made in generall to all the Apostles the prayer and charge were peculiar to Peters persō for such especial reason as I shewed before concerning his temptation to denie Christ and his deniall of him But you tell vs that you doe not apply that charge of feeding the sheepe to Saint Peters successors without sufficient authoritie and reason Then questionlesse you must be able to shew vs some warrant for your doing out of the Scriptures For the testimonie or opinion of man is too weake a ground to build a matter of faith vpon And yet you bring vs nothing but the word of a man to perswade vs and scarce that too For whereas you alledge Chrysostome to countenance the matter it is but a copie of your countenance rather to feare then hurt vs. Chrysostome saith that our Sauiour shed his bloud to purchase those sheepe the care whereof he committed to Peter and his successors But who are these successors All ministers or at the least all Bishops If you haue read the place I need not proue it to you Chrysostome had caused Basil to be preferred to a Bishopricke against his will Hereupon Basil complaines of vnkind dealing The other to excuse himselfe vndertakes to shew that he had not onely not hurt him but also done