of the. 2. to the Corinthians the eyght chapter In the. 14. of the Actes verse 23. for the whiche you haue quoted the. 13. it is thus written When they that is Paule and Barnabas had ordeyned them elders by election for so is some translation in euery Church and prayed and fasted c. The texte is playne that Paule and Barnabas did ordeyne them Elders T. C. Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Unto these places of the first and sixte of the Actes is added firste the place of the fourtenth of the Actes where the authors of the Admonition doe proue that the election ought not to be in one man his hande but ought to be made by the Churche agaynst which master Doctor taketh three exceptions The first is for that it is sayde that Paule and Barnabas ordeined Elders whereby he woulde conclude that the congregations had nothing to doe But howe slender a reason that is it may be considered of infinite places in the Scripture whereof I will recite two or three In the fifthe Chapter of Iosua it is sayde that Iosua made him sharpe knyues for the circumcising of the children of Israell and a little afterwardes that Iosua circumcised them Shall we now vpon these words conclude y t Iosua dyd make the kniues himselfe or was a Cutler or beeing made to his hande did whette them and sharpen them or shall we saye that he dyd circumcise the children of Israell in his owne person and himselfe alone when as that was done by many and by the Leuites to whome that offyce apperteyned No but the Scripture declareth that Iosua procured sharpe knyues to be made and exhorted and commaunded the people to be circumcised In the eyghtenth of Exodus it is sayde that Moses dyd appoynt vnto the people Princes Captaynes ouer thousandes and hundrethes c. And if any conciude therevpon that he dyd it 1. Chap. verse 15. himselfe alone he is by and by confuted by that whiche is written in Deuteronomie where it appeareth that the people dyd choose them and presented them to Moses What is it then that is sayde in Erodus that Moses appoynted them but that Moses assembled the people and exhorted them to appoynt rulers and tolde them what maner of men they shoulde be and in a worde sate as it were moderatour in that election To come to the newe Testament In the Actes it is sayde that Paule and Timothie deliuered Act. 16. vnto the Churches the orders and decrees of the Apostles and Elders and yet it appeareth in another place that the Churche had also to doe and gaue their consent vnto the making Act. 15. verse 23. of those decrees so that the former place meaneth that the Apostles and Elders dyd go before and were the chiefe and directors of that action The same maner of speache is vsed of the * You say so but you shewe not one Romane stories wherein it is sayde that the Counsell dyd make Magistrates for because that he gathered the assembly and voyces whereby they were made and so S. Luke saythe heere that Paule and Barnabas ordeyned bicause they beeing the moderators of the election caused it to be made assembled the Churches tolde them of the necessitie of hauing good pastors and gouernoures gathered the voyces tooke heede that nothing should be done lightly nothing tumultuously or out of order And so to conclude it is an euill reason to say as M. Doctor dothe that bicause S. Luke hath that Paule and Barnabas ordeyned therefore the people were excluded Io. Whitgifte If the reason groūded vpon the playne words of the scripture be but a slender reason then do I confesse that to be so likewise Howbeit very godly and learned men thinke it a reason sufficient Zuinglius in his Eccless sayth that some were called elected Zuinglius Bullinger to the ministerie of the worde by the Apostles onely Bullinger in his thirde booke aduersus Anabap. Cap. 4. sayth thus Paulus Barnabas presbyteros seu ministros elege unt in ecclesijs Asiae Paule and Barnabas did choose Elders or Ministers in the Churches of Asia Those places of Scripture that you recite may proue that there are suche maner of speaches in the scripture but they proue not that this is suche and therefore you haue in vayne rehearsed them The example of Iosua is farre from prouyng thys phrase to bée suche sor you affirme that Iosua is sayde to make sharpe knyues and to Circumcic onelye bycause hcc procured sharpe knyues to bee made and commaunded the people to bee circumcided and not bycause hee hym selfe bydde sharpen the knyues or circumcyde in hys owne person But it is certaine that Paule and Barnabas had to doe in this action and didde themselues in theyr owne persons ordeyne ministers and not commaunde others to ordeyne them Wherefore the manner of speache can not bée lyke excepte you will expounde thys place thus Paule and Barnabas ordeyned them Elders that is commaunded the people to choose them Elders whyche interpretation were straunge for thys place and vnhearde of beefore That in the syrste of Deuteronomie dothe not directely proue that Moyses alone didde not appoynte those Magistrates for althoughe he wylled the people to bryng vnto him menne of wysedome and of vnderstandyng c. yet it followeth not that they didde so but it rather appeareth that they commytted the choyse of them wholly to hym for after in the fyftéenth verse of the same Chapter he sayeth So I tooke the chiefe of youre tribes wyse and knowne men and made Deu. 1. Ver. 15. them rulers c. Manyfest it is that whether the people named any vnto hym or no he appoynted them and gaue them theyr authoritie so that the maner of speache is proper and without any trope or figure But doe you not still secretly pushe at the authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate T. C. vnder an other pretence pusheth at the ciuill Magistrate vnder the pretence of speakyng agaynst the state Ecclesiasticall For howesoeuer you woulde séeme to bryng in the place in the eightéenth of Exodus to proue the phrase and manner of speaking yet maye you bée thoughte secretely to insinuate that Princes maye not appoynte vnder-officers without the Election of the people And surely if your dealing in this place bée well marked it may easily be séene that in reasonyng agaynst the gouernemente of the Churche you laye the groundes of confoundyng or at the leaste of chaungyng the state of the Common wealth In the fiftéenth of the Actes ver 22. and. 23. there appeareth that the whole Churche together wyth the Apostles and Elders didde sende certayne chosen menne of theyr owne companye to Antiochia wyth Paule and Barnabas c. and wrote Letters by them conteynyng these Decrées wherevnto though the people subscribed and gaue theyr consente yet it followeth not but that the Apostles and Elders made them As it also appeareth verse 2. and. 6. of the same chapter
44. Sect. 2. Fyrst bicause in the Apostles tyme the Churche was vnder the crosse and therefore very fewe in comparison was there that embraced the Gospell and commonly they kept togither or at the least met oftentimes so that one of them was throughly knowne to another and they them selues could best iudge who among them was the fittest to teache and instructe hauing alwayes diuers fit for that function Nowe the Churche is in prosperitie and therefore the number that professeth great and dispersed into diuers places and in moste parishes not one fitte for the ministerie among them or knowne vnto them so that they should call they knowe not whome T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 4. You say it was in the Apostles times vnder the crosse and therfore fewe and so mighte easily knowe one an other who were fit for the ministerie But you forget your selfe maruellously For in the Apostles tymes the Churche I meane visible and sensible for else howe coulde it be persecuted was (1) It is not so much to haue the Gospell sowen in many places as to haue it generally receyued in a fewe sowen not onely throughout all Asia whiche is the greatest parte of the world but throughe a great parte of Affrica and no small portion of Europe and now it is shut in a smal corner of Europe beeing altogither banished out of Asia Affrica And therfore there are not the (2) There be many mo Christians in profession nowe thā were at that time For though the Gospell was then dispersed in many places yet was it professed but of fewe persons tithe nowe of thosethat professed the Gospell then and what a conclusion is this the Church were fewe in number because they were vnder the crosse For to let passe both other scriptures and stories ecclesiasticall haue you forgotten that which is sayde in the first of Exodus that the more the children of Israell were pressed and persecuted the more they multiplied Then you saye they kepte togither and met often and so knowing one another were best able to iudge one of another But heerein you speake as one that hath small experience of persecuted Churches for in the time of persecution the Christians that were in one great citie were fayne to gather them selues out of all the corners and from all the endes of the citie to one place beeing not able to deuide themselues into many parishes both for other considerations and because they were not able to maynteine many ministers and Elders and Deacons so that we reade that the Churche which was at Antioche wrote vnto the Churche at Ierusalem and that of Ierusalem vnto them of Antioche and S. Paule to the Churche at Rome at Ephesus and at Philippos c. Which speeches do declare that by al likelyhood in one great citie they had but (3) This proueth that there were but fewe Christians in those cities in respecte of the rest that were not Christians one congregation and therefore that muste needes be scattered heere and there and so could not haue the commoditie either of often meeting or of knowing one an other so wel as where suche a citie is deuided into many Churches Those that knowe the estate of Fraunce in the tyme of persecution do well vnderstande that euery Churche almost was gathered of townes whereof some were sixe miles some seauen some more from the place of meeting and keeping their congregations And therfore could not meete so often nor knowe one an other so well as we by the grace of God may do which meete oftener and in lesse number than they do Io. Whitgifte I remember my selfe very well and I also remember that no learned writer olde The multitude of Christians is nowe greater or newe denyeth this to be true that I haue sayde you onely saye that in the Apostles time the visible Church of Christ was sowne not onely throughout all Asia which is the greatest part of the world but a great part of Affrica and no smal portion of Europe you proue it not either by Scripture storie or anye good writer The Gospell I graunte was preached in all these partes of the world yet was it not generally receyued in any one part of the world no not in any citie not at Ierusalem where all the Apostles were not in any the least towne There were Christians at Ierusalem at Antioche at Ephesus at Rome c. But not the tenth part in any of these or other places in comparison to the Iewes and the Gentils that were there and not Christians In the Apostles time the visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in cōparison to the times that followed when the whole citie was christened and professed Christ and had Christian Magistrats I speake not of the dispersing of the Gospell into diuers places which I know was in the Apostles time for that commaundement had they of Christ that they should goe into the whole world c. but I speake of the multitude of Christians Mar. 16 gathered togither in one place In the Apostles time as I sayd before no one country or kingdome no one citie no one towne did wholy professe Christ or for the most part now whole kingdomes whole countries whole nations professe him When Matthias was chosen the whole Church was gathered together in one place And so was it when the Deacons were chosen Which thing now is vnpossible bycause of the multitude so that thoughe the election mighte be by the whole Church in the Apostles time when it was together in one place yet can it not be so now séeing it is vnpossible for any one kingdome to conteine it It might wel be that the people in euery citie might méete in one place without confusion or tumult in the Apostles time when as scarce the. xx part of the citie were Christians but it cannot be so now when whole cities professe Christ. Wherfore I speake of the multitude of Comparison made in respect of the multitude in one place no dispersed Christians gathered togither in one place not of the multitude dispersed throughout the whole worlde though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians then dispersed through the whole world is comparable to the number of Christians which at this day be in Europe Now few Christians was there at Ierusalem not long before it was destroyed beyng aboue 40. yeares after Christ Doth not Eusebius Lib. 3. cap. 5. testifie that they all were receiued into a little towne called Pella and yet the Apostles had spent muche time and labour in preaching there but the number of such as did not professe Christ was infinite in that citie at that time if we beléeue histories and especially Iosephus de bello Iuda Lib. 7. cap. 17. wherfore your opinion of the multitude of Christians in the Apostles time in comparison to those that be now is but a very dreame It is a very good reason to say that
theyr reason is farre from good reason so are your similitudes farre from prouing the same the Logitians say Soluitur sunilitudo ostensa dissimilitudine First ther is great difference betwixte the office of an Apostle and the office of a Pastor as you must néedes confesse Then is there also difference in the number for the Apostles whiche were chosen of Christe to be witnesses of his Resurrection were twelue and therfore the number certain but the number of Preachers and Pastors is not limited but the mo the better Thirdly there was one chosen in the place of Iudas that the Scripture might be fulfilled as Peter saith Act. 1. but there is no such thing in the election of Pastors other ministers Moreouer it was the twelfth place in number that Mathias was chosen vnto and not any locall place such as pastors take charge of Wherfore except you can make a certayn number and no certain number a local prescript and definite cure and a generall charge without prescription of any certain place all one or at the least verie like this argument Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas ergo no man muste bee admitted into the ministerie excepte he haue a Cure muste of necessitie be a very childishe and fonde argument And how ofte shall I tell you that to reason à facto ad ius of an example to make a generall rule is a very vnskilfull kinde of rasoning excepte there be some generall rule and commaundement according to that example But was not Paule added to the number of the Apostles though there were no Some admitted to the ministerie a place beeing not voyde place voyde Were not also Barnabas Act. 14. Epaphroditus Phil. 2. Andronicus and Iunia Rom. 16. called Apostles I might therefore as wel reason thus Paule Barnabas c. were called to be Apostles when there was no place voyde Ergo some maye be called to the preaching of the Gospell though they haue no certayne cure But let vs sée how you will iustifie this assertion that there are no ordinarie ministers ecclesiasticall which be not locall and tyed to one congregation c. For I vtterly denie it in that sense that you speake it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 5. And that it may the better appeare that those functions doe onely remayne whiche are appoynted to one certayne place and that the Reader maye haue the clearer and playner vnderstanding of all this matter all the whole ecclesiasticall function maye be well deuided first into extraordinarie or those that endured for a time and into ordinarie whiche are perpetuall Of the firste sorte are the Apostles and Euangelistes whiche the Lorde vsed for a time as it were for chiefe Masons and principall buylders of his Churche as well to laye the foundations of Churches where none were as also to aduaunce them to suche forwardnesse and height vntill there might be gotten for the finishing of the buylding and house of the Churche fitte pastors Elders and Deacons And that beeing done they went from those places into others which thing may be perceyued by the continuall storie of the Actes of the Apostles and by diuers sentences which are founde in the Epistles of S. Paule And therfore also when the Churches haue bin by Antichrist euen rased from the foundations God hath stirred vp Euangelists euen immediatly by his spirite without any calling of men to restore his Churches agayne of whiche sorte was Master Wickli e in our Countrey M. Hus and Hierome of Prage in Bohemia Luther and Zuinglius in Germanie c. And after this sort God may at his good pleasure work when he purposeth to set in his Gospell in any nation where the whole face of the earth is couered with the darknesse of ignorance and want of the knowledge of God Io. Whitgifte Althoughe you can not warrant by the Scriptures this distinction of ordinarie and In what respect the Apostolical function was extraordinary extraordinarie ecclesiasticall functions yet I thinke the Apostolicall function was extraordinarie in respect that it had for the time certayne especiall properties as to beare witnesse of the resurrection of Christ and of his assention whiche they dyd sée with their eyes also to plant to found Churches Likewise to go throughout the whole worlde These I say were temporall and extraordinarie and so was the Apostleship in this respect but yet ordinarie in respect of their chiefe function which was to preache the Gospell and to gouerne the Churches whiche they had planted Likewise Euangelistes haue an ordinarie function neyther is there any cause why it should be called a temporall office but onely in respect of writing the Gospell for there is none that thinketh the office of preaching to be eyther extraordinarie or temporall But I pray you let me aske you one question why should not the office of Seniors be aswell extraordinarie and temporall as the office of an Apostle or an Euangelist for as you saye that the Apostleship and Euangelistship remayned vntil there might be gotten for the finishing of the buylding and house of the Churche fytte Pastors c. So say I that the office of Seniors and Elders might remayne in the Churche vntill there were christian Princes and Magistrates by whome the people of God might be kepte in peace and quietnesse and the Churches of Christ more perfectly gouerned And wel assured I am that there are as good reasons for this as there are for the other For as in the place of the Apostles Euangelistes c. are succéeded Bishops Pastors Doctors so I may say that in the place of Elders and Seniors are come Christian Princes and Magistrates As for this parte of the Apostles function to visite suche Churches as were before planted and to prouide that suche were placed in them as were vertuous and godly Pastors I knowe it remayneth still and is one of the chiefe partes of What part of the Apostles function remayneth the Bishops function as shall hereafter more at large appeare I graunte that Master Hus Hierome of Prage c. were stirred vp euen by God to preache his truthe and open the doore of his worde agayne yet were they called to some function of the Churche before althoughe that function were for the moste parte wicked and the Church almost wholly corrupted with superstition and errors But why you shoulde rather call them Euangelistes than Apostles Prophetes Pastors or Doctors I knowe not especially séeing some of them had ordinarie charges Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 1. Of this sorte of extraordinarie functions are the Prophets also which besides a singular dexteritie and readinesse of expounding the Scriptures had also the gifte of telling things to come whiche bicause it is not nowe ordinarily I thinke there is none will denie but it is an extraordinarie calling for the other two of the Apostles and Euangelistes it shall appeare more at large hereafter by occasion giuen
in Pontus Bithinia Lib. 1. Tom. 2. And what other office then those hath the Archbishop Therfore though the name of Archbishop was not among the Apostles yet was his office function And notwithstanding that part of the office of the Apostles is ceased which consisted in planting founding of Churches throughout y e world yet this part of gouernment direction of Churches remaineth still and is committed to Byshops Therefore saith Ambrose in the. 4. ad Ephe. Apostoli Episcopi sunt Apostles are Byshops Ambro. in 4. Ephe. bicause Bishops do succeede them in preaching the word gouerning y e church Now if I shal also proue by good authoritie that among the Apostles themselues Superioritie among the Apostles and in their tymes there was one chiefe though he were not called Archbishop then I suppose that it will not seeme straunge vnto you that in this state of the Church it should be cōuenient to haue the like in euery Prouince or Diocesse Ierome in his first Ierom. aduers. Ioni lib. 1. booke aduersus Iouinianum sayth thus Yet among the twelue one is chosen that a head being appoynted occasion of schisme might be remoued And least ye should wipe this away with your accustomed deprauing of the Authour I will ioyne vnto him the testimonie of M. Caluine in his Institutions Cap. 8. who writeth thus That the twelue Caluine Apostles had one among them to gouerne the rest it was no marueyle for nature requireth it and the disposition of man will so haue it that in euerie companie although they be all equall in power yet that there be one as gouernour by whome the rest may be directed There is no court without a Consull no Senate without a Pretor no Colledge without a president no societie without a master M. Bucer likewise in his booke De regno Christi hath these wordes Now we see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from Bucer the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy Ghost that among the Ministers to whome especially the gouernment of the Church is committed one should haue the chiefe eare both of the Churches and whole ministerie and that he shoulde go before all other in that care and diligence for the which cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernors of Churches c. Againe vpon the. 4. to the Ephe. he sayth as before is alledged Paule in the Acts called the same men Bishops Ministers whē he called for the Idem Ministers of Ephesus to Miletum yet bicause one among them did rule and had the chief eare of the Church the name of a Bishop did properly belong vnto him Neither was his age alwayes considered so that he were vertuous and learned as we haue an example in Timothie being a yong man Thus then you sée that euen amongst the Apostles themselues and in the Churches in their tymes there were some that had the chiefe authoritie ouer the rest and to this ende especially that schismes and contentions might be compounded and the rest might be directed whiche are the chiefe partes of the Archbishops office and therefore all this that you haue here sayde falleth flat to the ground And yet still I do affirme that if it had not béene so in the Apostles time yet might it haue bene both lawfully and necessarily at other tymes Chap. 3. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 1. At Antioch there rose a great daūgerous heresie that had in a maner infected al the Churches which shaked the very foūdation of the saluation of gods childē that was whether faith were sufficient to iustifie without circūcision The matter was disputed of both sides it could not be agreed of What do they now Do they ordein some Archbishop Archprophet Archapostle or any one chief to whō they will referre the coutrouersie or vpon whō they wil depend Nothing lesse And if they would haue had the controuersies ended by one what deuine was there euer or shall there be more fitter for that purpose than S. Paule which was amongst them Why do they send abrode for remedie when they had it at home Why with great charges and long iourneyes which they might haue had without charges or one foote set out of the doore what do they then They sende Paule and Barnabas to Ierusalem as if the lesser townes should send to the Churches of the Uniuersities of London to desire their help in the determining of the controuersie And what is Paule Barnabas ambassage is it to desire the iudgement or mind of some one It must needes be answered with S. Luke that they came to know the resolution of the Church and yet there were the Apostles whereof euerie one was better able both sharpely to see and to iudge incorruptly without affection than any Archbishop that euer was If therefore in so great aboundance and ouerflowing of the giftes of God and in that tyme when as controuersyes might haue beene referred without daunger of error vnto one onely this ministerie of one aboue all was not thought good now when the giftes are lesse and the daunger of error more to make an Archbishop for the deciding of controuersyes and auoyding of schismes is a thing so straunge that I am not able to see the reason of it For to which soeuer of the Apostles the controuersie had bene referred it is certaine that he would haue giuen a true sentence of it Io. Whitgifte It was tolde you before that an Archbishop of himselfe alone doth not take vpon Supr diui 〈◊〉 him to determin matters of doctrine in controuersie But if any such contention arise either he determineth the matter according to the law rule alreadie by the Church established or else with the consent of the Prince doth he set an order in the same by a prouinciall and lawfull Synode in the which he is the chiefe as some one of the Apostles were in such like assemblies according to that which I haue before declared therfore all this speach might well haue bene spared Your argument also is faultie in two respectes first it is Ab authoritate negatiuè or à non facto ad non ius which is good Neque in diuinis neque in humanis neyther in diuine nor in humane matters Secondly you go about to conclude an vniuersall doctrine of one particular and singular example which at no time nor in any matter is tollerable Moreouer it rather iustifyeth my assertion for it euidently proueth that euerie The example of T. C. is rather against him than for him Parish within it selfe hath not absolute authoritie to ende controuersies but that it behoueth them in such weightie matters to resort to the chiefe Church as they now did to Ierusalem This example therefore if you well consider it is directly against you neither doth it in any respect proue that there was then no chiefe gouernour or guide of the
well gouerne a prouince or diocesse and vse the heipe of Archdeacons Chauncellors c. but so cannot the Pope doe whole Christendome what helpe or deputies soeuer he haue If agaynst your will you were constrayned to make such comparisons why do you make Difference betwene the Pope and our Archbishops them when there is no cause why do you forge that which is vntrue why do you ioyne togither offices which in no poynt are like The Pope chalengeth authoritie ouer all Christendome so do not our Archbishops The Pope exalteth himselfe aboue Kings and Princes so do not our Archbishops but with all reuerence acknowledge their subiection to the Prince The Pope sayeth that to be subiect vnto him is of necessitie to saluation so do not our Archbishops The Pope maketh his Decrées equall to the woorde of God our Archbishops thinke nothing lesse of theirs To be short the Pope oppresseth and persecutetth the Gospel they earnestly professe it and haue suffered persecution for it Therefore your comparison is odious your riotous speach more presumptuous than becommeth a man pretending your simplicitie Your good opinion conceyued of them is well vttered in your booke what spirit hath taught you thus to dissemble surely euen the same that hath falsified Scriptures and wryters in your booke that hath vttered so many prowde and contemptuous speaches agaynst your superiours that hath moued you to make contention in the Churche euen spiritus mendax spiritus arrogantiae superbiae a lying spirite the spirite of arrogancie and pryde for such frutes cannot procéede from any other spirite Chap. 3. the. 34. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 3. 4. But Ierome sayth that this distinction of a Bishop a minister or elder was frō S. Marke his tyme vnto Dionysius time whereby M. Doctor would make vs beleeue that Marke was the author of this distinction but that cannot be gathered by Ieromes wordes For besides that things being ordered then by the suffrages of the ministers and Elders it might as it falleth out oftentimes be done without the approbation of S. Marke the wordes from Marke may be rather taken exclusiuely to shut out S. Marke and the time wherein he liued than inclusiuely to shut him in the tyme wherein this distinction rose Howsoeuer it be it is certayne that S. Marke did not distinguishe and make those things diuers which the holy ghost made all one For then which the Lord forbid he should make the storie of the Gospell which he wrote suspected Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to Ieromes woordes but a dallying with them the place is euident he sayth from the time of Marke the Euangelist whom vndoubtedly he would not haue named vnlesse the same manner had bene in his time But be it that the wordes from Marke be taken exclusiuely which no man of Iudgement will graunt yet doth it argue a great antiquitie of this distinction euen from the moste pure and best time of the Churche It is certayne that these thinges were not otherwise distinguished than the holy Ghost had appoynted and therefore your for then c. is an vngodly collection and vnbeséeming your person in any respect to imagine of the glorious Gospell written by that holy Euangelist Chap. 3. the. 35. Diuision T. C Pag. 2. Sect. 5. Againe it is to be obserued that Ierome sayeth it was so in Alexandria signifying thereby An absurde collection that in other Churches it was not so And indeede it may appeare in diuers places of the auncient fathers that they confounded Priest and Bishop and tooke them for all one as Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Ani ete Pius Telesphorus Higinus Xystus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 5. 16. De dignitate sacerdotali Elders and presidents Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop in the Epistles before recited so doth Ambrose in the place alledged before by M. Doctor and yet it is one thing with vs to be a priest as M. Doctor speaketh and an other thing to be a Bishop Io. Whitgifte This argument passeth of all that euer I heard Ierome sayth there was a Bishop The passing Logike of T. C. in Alexandria aboue the other ministers from S. Markes time therefore there was no Bishop in any place else God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Iacob Ergo he is no bodies God else he is the God of the Iewes Ergo not of the Gentiles There be Bishops in England Ergo there are none in any other place No marueyle it is though you riot in your Logike when such stuffe is set abroad Like vnto this are the other Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Anitete Pius Telesphorus c. elders and presidents and Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop and so doth Ambrose Ergo euery Priest is such a Bishop as Ierome here speaketh of These be pretie argumentes Euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest hath not the name and title of a Bishop Difference betwixt byshop priest Hieronymus ad Euagrium in that meaning that Ierome in this place taketh the name of a Byshop For his woordes be these Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heraclam c. At Alexandria from Marke the Euangelist vntill Heracla and Dionysius Bishops the ministers alwayes chose one from among themselues and placing him in a higher degree of dignitie called him a Bishop as if an armie should make a Captayne ▪ c. Neyther shall you finde this woorde Episcopus commonly vsed but for that Priest that is in degrée ouer and aboue the rest notwithstanding Episcopus be oftentimes called Presbyter bycause Presbyter is the more generall name so that M. Doctor sayth truely that it is with vs one thing to be a Byshop an other thing to be a priest bycause euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest is not a Bishop I know these names be confounded in the Scriptures but I speake according to the manner and custome of the Church euen since the Apostles time And this is not onely my opinion but other learned men affirme it in lyke manner as M. Bucer in his booke De regno Christi and vpon the. 4. Ephes. Whose woordes I haue before rehersed Thus you sée that M. Doctors distinction is with better authoritie cōfirmed than you haue any to ouerthrow it Chap. 3. the. 36. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Ierusalem was a famous Church so was Rome as the Apostle witnesseth so was Antioche Rom. 1. and others where also were great contentions both in doctrine and otherwise and yet for auoyding of contention schisine there there was no (*) An vntruth one that was ruler of the rest Therfore we ought rather to follow these Churches beyng many in keping vs to the institutiō of the Apostles than Alexandria beyng but one Church and departing from that institution if there had bene any one set ouer al the rest in other places it would haue made much for the distinctiō that Icrome had
confesse to haue bene in these offices which notwithstanding you speake of your owne head without any warrant of Gods worde argueth that there maye be superioritie among the ministers of the Churche And the degrées of honour that you acknowledge to haue bene among the Apostles quite cast th downe your confused qualitie As for your saluing the matter in saying that this chiefetie among the Apostles consisted not in hauing anye superioritie aboue the reste but in laboring c. it may please vnskilfull persons but it will not satisfie men of discr tion and wisdome For it is to be thought that euery one of y e Apostles laboured in their calling to the vttermost of their powers that they suffered whatsoeuer God laide vpon them that they had all giftes most aboundantly necessarie for their functions Wherfore in all these things there was summa aequalitas and no m n sought such preheminence or receyued it being offered vnto him but according to their owne doctrine euery one thought of another better than of 〈◊〉 Wherfore it could not be for this respect but it was for order pollici to a oyde confusion I haue tolde you before why you labour so muche to haue honour and dignitie distributed according to the excellencie of gifts for then you perswade your selfe that the chiefetie would light on your owne necke but you may peraduenture be deceiued Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. tovvards the ende And nowe I adde that you desire this equalitie not bycause you Why y e Admonitors desire equalitie would not rule for it is manifest that you seke it most ambitiously in your maner but bycause you contemne and disdaine to be ruled and to be in subiectiō In deede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to do what you list in your seueral cures without controlement of Prince Bishop or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seeke dominion I speake that I know by experience in some of you T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 2. 3. Now whereas he saith that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule might be in our handes and we might doe what we list and that we seeke to withdrawe our selues from controlement of Prince and Byshop and all first he maye learne if he will that we desire no o r authoritie than that which is to the edifying of the Churche and whiche is grounded of the wo e of God which if any Minister shall abuse to his 〈◊〉 or ambition then he ought to abyde not ely the controlment of y e other Ministers yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the fault And seyng you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the ministers and cleargie (*) An vntruth ▪ for the lawfull authoritie o Bishops and Archbyshops was long be ore came to the Bishops and Archbyshops when as the Pope did exempte his hauelings from the obedience subiec on and iurisdiction of Princes Nowe therefore that we be readie to giue that subiection vnto the prince and offer our selues to the princes correction in things wherein we shall doe amisse doe you thinke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to be disburdened of the Bishops and Archbishops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes Io. Whitgifte Your answere maketh the matter more suspicious for this authoritie you speake of Excessiue authoritie is sought vnder pretence of equalitie which you say ▪ is to the edifying of the Church and grounded of the word of God is as it pleaseth you to interprete it For what so euer you phansie and whatsoeuer authoritie you vsurpe shall haue the same pretence and if the Prince seeke to restraine you or to breake your will you and your Seniors will excommunicate hir if she be of your parishe Fu thermore the greatest preeminence she can haue is to be one of your seigniorie and then must M. Pastor be the chiefe and so in authoritie aboue y e Prince and consequently a Pope but of this more in due place shal be spoken This authoritie which the Bishops and Archbishops now exercise came first from 〈◊〉 authoritie of Byshops Archbishops came not from the 〈◊〉 the Apostolicall Church then from the example of the primitiue Churche for y e space of fiue hundred yeares after the Apostles time Thirdly from the Councels of Nyce Antioche Constantinople and all the beste and purest Councels that euer were And last of all from the authoritie of the Prince and by the consent of this whole Churche and Realme of England therefore not from the Pope who hath rather diminished it by taking all to himselfe than in any respect encreased it Wherfore you also in exempting your self from the authoritie and iurisdiction of the Archbishop and Bishop resist God in his Ministers the Prince in hir officers and the lawes of the Church Realme in their executors And as for your protested obedience it is so enwrapped with conditions and prouisoes as in other places of your booke more plainely appeareth that when it should come to the triall if your platforme were builded it woulde proue as little as uer the Popishe Byshops was in their greatest pride Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 2. The place in the first to the Coloss. vers 1. is this Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ by the vvill of God Timotheus our brother Surely your minde was not of equalitie I thinke when you quoted these places to proue it But it is your vsuall maner without al discretiō iudgement to dally play with the scriptures For what sequele is there in this reason Paule calleth Timothie brother Ergo in all respectes there must be equalitie As though there were not distinction of degrees euen among brethren Io. Whitgifte Magis mutus 〈◊〉 piscis and by his silence the ouersight confessed Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Admonition And (g) Lu. 22. 25. 26. 1. P t. 5. 3. 4. 5. Math. 20. 25. 26. Math. 23. 8 11. 12. Gala. 2. 6. Hebr. 5. 4. Lu. 16. 25. Eze. 34. 4. 2. Cor. 1. 24. as the names of Archbishops Archdeacons Lord bishops Chancelours c. are drawen out of the Popes shop togither with their offices So the gouernment which they vse by the life of the Pope which is the Canon law is Antichristian and diuelishe and contrarie to the scriptures Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 208. Sect. 1. Both of the names and also of the offices of Archbyshops Archdeacons Scriptures wreasted Lorde Byshops c. I haue spoken before sufficiently and fully answered those places quoted in this margent sauyng the. 2. to the Galat. the. 5. to the Hebrues Ezech. 34. 2. Cor. 1. for these places haue bene founde out since and thoughte meete
speaking of Christians and it is a straunge matter that you dare be bolde to grounde any point of gouernment or doctrine vpon so simple slender coniectures For what reason call you this Paule Barnabas did appoynt by election elders in euery congregation c. but it is not lyke they did appoint diuerse ministers or Bishops which preached in euery congregation c. therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached other elders c. First I say that this argument doth consist only vpō a vaine cōiecture for it might be that the number of Preachers were suche that euery congregation where Paule Barnabas had to do might haue mo preachers than one But Lorde what moueth you to play the Sophister in so serious a cause so to dally in a matter so manifest for how can you conclude by any thing here spoken that Paule and Barnabas did ordeyne mo than one Pastor or Presbyter in one congregation for this that is sayde that they ordeyned Elders or ministers in euery congregation doth not importe that they ordeyned mo than one in euery congregation but that they ordeyned for diuers congregations diuerse ministers that is for euery congregation a Pastor Doth not the Apostle S. Paule ad Tit. 1. vse the like kinde of speache when he sayde Tit. 1. vnto him For this cause I left thee at Creta c. Vt constituas opidatim presbyteros c Where it is manifest as I sayde before that he meaneth Bishops and Pastors and yet his intent was not that Titus should appoynt for euery congregation many Pastors This is méere cauilling but to cut of all other doubtes M. Caluine is sufficient to determine this controuersie who expounding this place of the. 14. Acto doth vnderstand it of Pastors only Preachers His woordes be these Presbyteros bic vocari interpretor Caluine quibus iniunctum erat docendi munus I interprete those here to be called Presbyteros vnto whome the office of preaching was committed And a litle after Now whereas Luke sayth that they were appoynted ouer seuerall churches thereof may the difference betwene their office and the office of the Apostles be gathered for the Apostles had in no place any certayne abiding but went from place to place alwayes to found new churches but Pastors were euery where addicted to their proper Churches So saith Brentius likewise Constituerunt Brentius per singulas Ecclesias Presbyteros quos aliàs scriptura Episcopos aliàs Pastores vocat They appoynted thorough euery congregation Elders whom the scripture sometimes calleth Bishops sometimes Pastors So that this place of the Actes speaketh not one woorde of your Seniors And therefore you cannot expound it by that in the. 1. Tim. 5. though it serued your purpose as it doth not For Luke to my remembrance no where in the Actes doth take this woorde Presbyter for any other than such as haue authoritie to preach the worde minister the sacramēts except he meaneth y e elders of the Iewes Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefely three Ministers Preachers or Pastors of whom before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Theyr office was to q Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 12. 28. gouerne the church with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correct and to order all thinges apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 113. Somevvhat past the midst To proue that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Churche with the rest of the ministers to consulte to admonish to correct and to order al things apperteyning to the state of the congregation you alleage Act. 14. the. 1. Corinth 12. In the 14. of the Actes it is writtē that Paule Barnabas ordeyned Elders at Antioche in euery Churche but there is not one worde spoken of their office therefore that text serueth not your purpose You haue alleaged this selfe same place twice before to proue that no minister of the worde ought to be placed in any congregation but by consent of the people that the election of ministers ought to be by the congregation now you alleage it to proue the office of your Seniors can it both be meant of Seniors and of the ministers of the worde being as you say distinct offices will you thus dally with the scripture and make it a nose of waxe as the Papistes terme it to wreast and wryth it which way you list here you must needes confesse eyther contradiction in your selues or falsification T. C. Pag. 138. Tovvardes the ende But M. Doctor sayth that there is no mention made of the office of such an Elder therefore that place maketh nothing to proue that there should be such Elders in euery congregation so M. Doctor write he careth not what he wryte Belike he thinketh the credite of his degree of Doctorship will giue waight to that which is light and pith to that which is frothe or else he woulde neuer answere thus For then I will if this be a good reason say that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place describe the office of the Pastor or Bishop which preacheth the worde therefore that place proueth not that in euery congregation there should be a bishop or a Pastor Besides that M. Doctor taketh vp the Authours of the Admonition for reasoning negatiuely of the testimonie of all the Scriptures and yet he reasoneth negatiuely of one only sentence in the Scripture (*) An vntruth for he maketh no such conclusion For the would cōclude that for so much as there is no duety of a Senior described in that place therefore there is no duetie at all and consequently no Senior Io. Whitgifte The Authors of the Admonition Fol. 112. to proue that the office of the Senior was to gouerne the Churche with the rest of the ministers to c nsulte to admonish to correct and to order all thinges apperteyning to the state of the congregation alleage the. 14. of the Actes vers 4. 1. Cor. 12. vers 28. I declare in mine Answere how vnaptly these places are alleaged for that purpose beyng not one woorde there spoken of any such office of Seniors as it may appeare in the woordes themselues beyng placed before Nowe whether I make any suche reason as you frame in my name or no let the Reader iudge The places be quoted in the Admonition to proue the office of Seniors and not to proue that there were Seniors in euery congregation and you being not able to salue that their vnskilfulnesse make M. Doctor speake what you please and shifte of the matter after your accustomed manner I make not that conclusion you charge me with if I do set downe my woordes conuince me
gubernatores tum ciuiles tum ecclesiastic s The gouernours of the Church as well ciuill as ecclesiasticall Howsoeuer it is the place béeing doubtful it can not esta blishe the office of your Seniors as perpetuall Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Admonition In steade of these Seniors in r Rom. 1 8 euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and yet we maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer sundry churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 115. Sect. vlt. You alleage in the margent these words in the. 12. to the Rom. He that exhorteth let hym vvayte on exhortation he that distribute h let him do it vvith simplicitie he that ruleth vvith diligence he that shevveth mercy vvith cherefulnesse To proue that in steade of these Seniors in euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and we yet maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches c. I know not how this geare hangeth togither or to what purpose you should alleage that place it neyther proueth that in euery Churche there was Elders neyther that in place of them the Pope hathe brought in the the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayth of the place to the Romanes where Cap. 12. speaking of the offices of the Church after that he had set foorth the office of the pastor and of the Doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Church wherof one was occupied in the gouernment onely the other in prouiding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manyfest words of the Apostle in both these places I should adde the sentences of the writers vpon those places as M. Caluine M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easily appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to dally with the scriptures to make them a nose of waxe in alleaging of these to proue the Elders that al men might vnderstande what terrible outc ies he maketh as in this place so almost in al other when there is cause that he should lay his hande vpon his mouth Io. Whitgifte The like answere do I make to that place also that I made to y e former M. Caluine Caluine sayth that these words of the Apostle Qui pr est in diligentia he that ruleth with diligence may generally be extended ad praefecturas omne genus to all kind of rule or gouernment And M. Martyr vpon the same words sayth that he doubteth not multas fuisse in Martyr Beza ecclesia praefecturas that there were many gouernments in the Church M. Beza likewyse although he sayth that the Apostle in this worde vnderstandeth presbyteros yet he addeth qui ipsi interdū doctrinae verbo praeerant which also sometime dyd preach the word M. Bucer sayth playnely Est praeterea qui praeest qui pascendi regendi ecclesiā mun accepit Bucer Furthermore he doth rule whiche hathe receyued the office of feeding and gouerning the Church Wherby he must néedes vnderstand the Pastor not any vnpreaching Senior But what kinde of argument call you this he that ruleth must do it with diligence Ergo there must be Seniors in euery parish You should rather conclude thus therefore those to whome God hath committed any office of gouernment muste doe the same diligently and carefully So that although these learned mē do vnderstād this place of Seniors yet do they The place Rom. 12. is generall think y t it may also be vnderstāded of other magistrates gouernours therfore vpō their interpretatiōs you can not conclude any certentie of your Seniors And M. Beza séemeth by y e name of Seniors to vnderstād the ministers of the word that is Bishops pastors and there is no doubt but that y e Apostle in this place doth admonish al to be diligēt in their office that haue any kind of gouernmēt cōmitted vnto thē Wherfore you may not restraine this to any one particular kind of gouernmēt which y ◠Apostle hath generally spoken of al for that were in déede to dally with the scriptures to abuse them as the Papists do yea to make thē a nose of waxe as I haue sayd before Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. This I am compelled to write not so muche to pro e that there were Seniors in euery Churche which is a thing confessed as to redeeme those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations for as for the proofe of Elders in euery congregation esides his confession I neede haue no more but his owne reason For he sayth that the office of these Elders in euery Church ▪ was in that tun wherin there were no christian Magistrates and when there was perfecution but in the Apostles times there was bothe persecution and no christiā Magistrates therfore in their time the office of these Elders was in euery congregation Io. Whitgifte If this be a good argument S. Paule ad Rom. 12. sayth he that uleth must doe it diligently Ergo euery particular congregation muste of necessitie be gouerned by Seniors Or this the Apostle 1. Cor. 12. sayth that God hath placed in his Churche gouernours Ergo euery parish must haue a Seigniorie Or this Paule and Barnabas in euery Churche ordeyned pastors therefore in euery Church there must be a company of Seniors to whome the whole gouernment of the parish is to be cōmitted If I say these be good sure argumēts then haue I corruptly interpreted those places But if these arguments be not sounde if they haue no sequele in them if they be agaynst the practise of the Church euer since it had christian Magistrates and long before especially for suche Elders as you meane if this kinde of gouernment in many reformed Churches be not thought conuenient if it spoyle the Christian Magistrate of the authoritie giuen vnto him by the worde of God and finally if it bring in confusion then haue I truely interpreted those places and according to my duetie and calling deliuered them from your corruptions But the truthe of this matter shall more euidently appeare in that whiche followeth That whiche I haue sayde of the béeing of Seniors in euery Churche I saye still neyther is that the questiō for I aske y ◠question of your Seniors not of Ministers whome I call Seniors neyther dyd I meane that in euery particular parish there was suche a Seigniorie but in euery chiefe Citie nor that it was at all tymes in persecution and where there was no Christian Magistrate but ometimes neyther that this kinde of gouernment muste be in suche times but that it may be And therefore you had done well if you had not béene so sparing of your proofes for all my graunte ¶ VVhether the gouernment by Seniors ought to be perpetuall Chap. 2. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. I come therefore to the seconde
word of the office of your Seniors which you distinguish frō a minister of y e word wher doth he giue any such cōmandemēt cōcerning his office Wher doth he prescribe any such for me or kind of gouernmēt if he kéepe silēce in this matter thr ugh y e whole epistle how dare you presume to say that to be cōmanded which is not mentioned to make so much adoe about nothing surely if this kind of gouernmēt had bin so necessary for euer to be bserued S. Paule wold not haue omitted it in this Epistle especially You say that he hath set foorth in that Epistle the office of an elder if by an elder you meane a Bishop or a Pastor it is true If you meane your own elder such as must gouern only neither preach nor minister the sacramēts it is very vntrue and you haue no cōscience in speaking vntruth for he speaketh not one word of that senior or of his office If you reply or obiect that which is written 1. Tim. 5. qui bene praesunt 〈◊〉 c. I answer as I did before that by presbyter in that place he meaneth such as be in the ministerie and no other If he do meane any other yet doth he not describe the office of that Senior neither giueth any precept of his continuāce or rule of any such kind of mēnt therfore cannot be included in that precept which you so greatly amplify for the wordes of the Apostle be these vt serues hoc praeceptum so that you haue laboured much to proue a thing that is not and therefore you haue laboured in vaine Secondly The whole epistle to 〈◊〉 s not that commandement you cannot extend these words of the Apostle to the whole Epistle as though it were gyuen generally of the whole and of euery thing therein contein d for then muste you of necessitie bring in widdowes and their office into the Churche again bicause the Apostle doth not only describe their office in that epistle but also giueth direct precepts of them so doth he not of your Seniors Likewyse his precepte of drinking wine whiche he giueth there also must of necessitie be obserued of all ministers whiche haue the lyke infirmitie These and suche other grosse absurdities must of necessitie followe if you will haue all things in that Epistle necessarily for euer to be obserued and the whole epistle to be that commaundement that the Apostle here enioyneth to Timothie cap. 6. Neyther can I perceiue that any learned interpreter doth referre this commandement Wherevnto that commandement is referred to any other things conteined in this Epistle than to those only that do appertaine to the pastorall office of Timothie and some there be that restrayne it to those things onely which are before spoken of in this 6. chapter especially to y e precept against couetousnes Chrysostome expounding this place sayth thus VVhat is it to kepe the cōmaundement pure Vt neque vitae neque dogmatū gratia aliquid maculae contra as Chrysostome Caluine That neither in respect of lyfe or doctrine thou haue any spot To conclude M. Caluin interpreting it sayth on this sort By this word cōmaundement he signifieth those thinges which he had hitherto spokē of the office of Timothie wherof this is the sum that he shuld shew himself a faithful minister to Christ to the church For what need is there to extēd this to the whole law except peraduenture some m had rather to take this simplye for the function cōmitted vnto him for whē we are appointed ministers of the churche God doth therwith prescribe vnto vs what he would haue vs to do So that seruare mandatum to keepe the comaundement is nothing else but faithfully to execute the office cōmitted vnto him surely I do wholly refer it to the ministerie of Timothie Wherby it is euidēt that vnder this cōmaūdement euery thing in this epistle is not conteined but y t only which doth appertain to y e office of Timothie That which foloweth immaculatus irreprehensibilis according to the most and best interpreters is referred to Timothie not to the cōmaundement cōtrarie to your iudgement wherfore I also conclude that nothing in this Epistle maketh one iote for your Seigniorie Chap. 2. the sixthe Diuision T. C. Pag. 141. Sect vlt. So that we haue not only now the 〈◊〉 of al y e primi iue churches which ought to moue vs if there were no cōmaundement but we haue also a straight cōmandement I say the only exāples ought to moue vs for what way can we s felyer follow thā y e cōmon high way beaten trodē by steps of al y e Apostles of al the churches Things also grounded being preserued by the same meanes by the which they were ingendred why should we think but y t the churches now wil prosper by y e gouernment wherby it first came vp But I say we haue not only the examples of the churches but we haue also commandement straight charge to kepe this office of elders and auncients in the church therfore it is not only rashnesse in leauing the way that the aposties churches by the apostles aduise haue gone but disobedience also to depart from their commaundement to mainteyn defend that we may do so I can almost giue it no gentler name than rebellion Io. Whitgifte Examples of churches ther may be some but not of your kind of Seniors Precept cōmaundemēt for this kind of gouernmēt there is not one in y e whole scripture or any other approued authoritie For I haue before shewed how little y ◠authoritie serue h your purpose y ◠which you would haue vs thinke to be so expresse a cōmaundement Wherfore it is no rebellion to disallow of your order in the tyme of Christian magistrates but it is rebellion to contend for it to the abridging of that authoritie that God hath to Christian Princes committed Chap. 2. the seuenth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 2. c. I know y t in the primitiue church they had in euery church certain Seniors to whome the gouernmente of the congregation was committed but that was before there was any Christian Prince or magistrate that openly professed the Gospell and before there was anye Churche by publike authoritie established or vnder Ciuill gouernment I told you before that the diuersitie of tyme and state ▪ of the church requireth diuersitie of gouernment in the same It can not be gouerned in time of prosperitie as it is in time of persecution It may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince which doth nourishe and maynteyne it as it may be vnder a Tyrant when it is constrained to 〈◊〉 and seeke corners It can not be gouerned in a w ole realme as it may be in one little citie or towne it cannot be gouerned when it is dispersed through many places as it may be when it
is collected into some one narow and certaine place To be shorte it can not be gouerned when it is ful of hypocrites Papists Atheis s and other wicked persons as when it hath verie fewe or none such as cōmonly it hath not in tyme of persecution when the gold is as it were by fyre tried from the drosse He that according to this diuersitie of the forme state time of the church doth not allow a diuersitie of gouernment doth confound and not edifie I praye you what Seniors could you haue in most parishes in England fit for that office But wise not wilful men haue to consider this God hath giuē the chief gouernment of his church to the christian magistrate who hath to consider what is most conuenient and we must therwith be content so that nothing be done against faithe and the commaundement of God TC Pag. 142. Sect. 1. Nowe I will come to M. Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth fourteene and a hundred and fiftene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery Churche in times past but saith that it ought not now so to be For saith he the times alter the gouernment and it cannot be gouerned in the time of prosperitie as in the time of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperitie will not beare the elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godlie prince as well as vnder a tyrant v lesse this be a reason that bycause the godlye prince doth nourish the church as a ciuile Magistrate therfore the Auncients may not nourishe it as ecclesiasticall ouerseers Io. Whitgifte My reason why it may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince as it maye The Church may no be gouerned vnder 〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉 a tyrant vnder a tyrant is this God hath giuen the chiefe authoritie in the gouernmente of his church to the Christian magistrate which could not so be if your Seignorie might as wel retein their authoritie vnder a Christian Prince and in the time of peace as vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution For tell me I pray you what authoritie ecclesiasticall remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate where this Seignorie is established But that the Reader may vnderstande this not to be my iudgement alone but the iudgement also of famous learned men the practise of w ll reformed churches I thought good in this place before I proceed any further to report the opinions of Musculus and Gualter touchyng this matter Musculus in his common places titulo de Magistratibus affirmeth that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉 tyme the Musculus churches were ruled by Seniors yet they may not so be vnder christian rulers and Magistrates who haue authoritie not in ciuill matters only but in ecclesiastical also His wordes I haue recited before M. Gualter in his cōmentaries vpon 1. Cor. 5. Supra in the 4. diuision doth at large entreat of this matter whose wordes bicause they haue pith in them and proceede from him which is both learned and godlie and of great experience I will reher e them as I finde them There are also others which although they haue true christian princes and want no lawes wherby licentious maners are corrected yet they say they nede an ecclesiastical senate Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. which might punish euery man and haue authoritie also ouer Princes that it might seclude them fr the Lords supper if they haue giuē any publike offence not to admitte them againe vnto the felowship of the Church but vpon their allowāce after publike satisfactiō And if any man do contrary them in their opinion by and by they crie out vpon him as the enemie of all discipline as one vnwoorthy to haue any place in the Church as though there could no other forme of discipline be appointed but that whiche they haue inuented But they must pardone vs and let them not condemne vs rashly which do dissent from them not without good reason You sée therefore how your Seigniorie and kinde of gouernmente is liked euen of zelous and godly ministers of reformed churches Neyther do I remember that I euer read any authoure that dothe of necessitie require it scripture I know you haue none for it Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2. Nowe seing M. Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the time of the Apostles as well vnder a Christian prince s vnder a Tyrant I will shewe him that although they be always necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now than in the Apostles times greater necessitie vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant First of all in the Apostles times it is knowne that the gifts of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauayle were poured foorth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnished with the gifts needefull for their ministerie than are the ministers of these days Whervpon I conclude that if the ayd and assistance of the Pastor by the Elders was thoughte necessary by the Apostles in those times when the ministers were so wel and so richly replenished with such gifts much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the ministers of these days wherein their gifts of discretion knowledge and diligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose hands so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes and other handes then the ministers now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier than theirs were haue much more neede of this ayde than they had Io. Whitgifte This reason is answered two ways and that briefly The first is bycause there is not at this time in euery congregation so méete men for that office of Seniors as there was then for God hath not now so plentifully poured the giftes of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge c. vpon so many in euery congregation according to your owne confession as he did then and therefore nothing so easie to fiad in euery congregation meete men to gouerne ▪ a it was then Secondly the ciuill and Christian The ciuill ma gistrate a better help to the minister than the Seniors Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now that Seniors had thē and much more for he may punish with corporall punishment and so could not they he may compell and coustrayne and so could not they so that the Pastor may be much better ayded and assisted in doing his dutie and in suppressing vice by the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate than he eyther was then or could be now by the
Pag. 152. Sect. 2. And whereas Master Doctor sayth that the office of the Deacons is not onely to prouide for the poore but also to preach and minister the Sacraments I haue shewed before that it both not apperteync vnto them to doe eyther the one or the other For the proofe whereof this place of the Romaines quoted by the Admonition is verie fitte and most proper For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which not contenting themselues with their owne vocations did breake into that which apperteyned vnto others as it the hande shoulde take vpon it the office of the eye or of some other member of the bodie and therefore Saint Paule doth as it were bounde and poynt the lymittes of euerie office in the Church and so placeth the Deacons office onely in the prouision for the poore This one thing I will adde to that matter that if the Apostles whiche had such excellent and passing gyftes did finde themselues preaching of the worde and attending to prayer not able to prouide for the poore but thought it necessarie to discharge themselues of that office to the ende they might doe the other effectually and frutefully he that shall doe both nowe must eyther do none well and profitably or else he must haue greater giftes than the Apostles had Io. Whitgifte I haue proued before manifestly that it perteyned to the office of a Deacon to Tract 14. preach and to minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and to helpe in other businesse perteyning to the Church I haue alledged both manifest examples out of the scripture to iustifie the same and the practise of the primitiue Church togither with the testimonies both of the auncient and late wryters and vndoubtedly you are dryuen to a great streight when you are inforced to vse this place of the. 12. to the Romaines to proue the contrary for though it were ment of Deacons yet doth it not proue in any respect your purpose neyther can you frame any argument of it to that ende Neither Steuen nor Philip when they being Deacons preached and the one ministred the Sacrament of Baptisme also did breake into that whiche apperteyned not vnto them being incident to their office when they be therevnto called The Apostles were occupied in planting Churches in going from place to place to spreade abrode the worde of God and therefore they coulde not so conueniently prouide for the posre but the Deacons hauing no such occasion of traveling and remouing from place to place might very well both preach the Gospell and prouide for the poore Neither can I conceiue any reason to the contrarie for I thinke they spent no greate tyme in turning ouer manie volumes to prouide for their Sermons bicause God gaue to them extraordinarie gyftes of knowledge vtterance and suche lyke necessarie for their function And if you speake of Deacons nowe I say vnto you that vnder a Christian Prince in the tyme of peace that part of their Some part of the Deacons office not so needfull in the time of christian magistrats office to prouide for the poore is not necessarie séeing that by other lawfull and politike meanes they may much better be prouided for Wherfore glorie as much as you will in your owne witte and reason yet in these heauenly diuine things your reasons shall proue but vaine and vntowarde Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision Admonition Againe in the olde Church euery (w) Phil. 1. 1. Iohn 13. 27 Acts. 6. 5. 1. Tim. 3. 8. congregation had their Deacons Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 120. O how aptly you haue alledged the scriptures to proue that euery congregation had their Deacons In the first to the Philip. these be Whether deacons were in euery congregation the wordes Paule and Timotheus c. to all the Saincts vvhiche are at Philippi vvith the Bishops and Deacons Paule Timotheus salute the Bishops and Deacons which are at Philippi Therfore in those dayes euerie congregation had their Deacons a straunge kinde of reasoning you might well haue thus concluded Ergo at Philippi there was Deacons But surely this argument is to much out of Unapt arguments square there was Deacons at Philippi therefore euerie congregation had their Deacons In the. 13. of S. Iohn verse 27. these be the wordes And after the soppe Sathan entered into him then sayde Iesus vnto him that thou doest do quickly After Supper Satan entered into Iudas and Iesus sayde vnto him that thou doest do quickly Therefore euerie Cōgregation had their Deacons No maruel though your margent be pestred with Scriptures when you take libertie to make ex quolibet quidlibet Peraduenture you meane that Iudas was a Deacon as he was not but an Apostle bycause he caryed the bagge and that some of the Apostles thought that Christ had bid him giue some what to the poore belike whosoeuer giueth a pennie to the poore at his masters commaundement is with you a Deacon In the sixt of the Actes we learne that there were chosen seuen Deacons but there is not one worde to proue that euery congregation had their Deacons In the thirde of the first to Timothie S. Paule sheweth what qualities and conditions a Deacon ought to haue but not one worde of Deacons being in euery Congregation This is great audacitie thus manifestly to wring the Scriptures without all colour or shewe of reason T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. vlt. The second point is touching that there were Deacons in euery Church which is wel proued of the Admonition both by the place of the Philippians and of the Acts for although it be not there sayd that the deacons were in euery church yet forsomuch as the same vse of thē was in all Churches whiche was in Ierusalem and at Philippes and for that the Apostles as hath beene before touched labouring after the vniformitte of the Church ordeyned the same officers in all Churches the proofe of one is the proofe of all and the shewing that there were Deacons in one Church is the shewing in all The place which they alledge out of the first to Timothe is of all other most proper for S. Paule there describing not how the Church of Ephesus but simplie and generally how the Church must be gouerned reckeneth there the order of Deacons whereunto may be added the continuall practise of the Church long after the Apostles tymes which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these wordes the Bishop Elders and Deacons of suche a Church and vnto the Bishops Elders and Deacons of such a Church And by that it is so oftentymes sayde in the councels where the Churches assembled that there were so many Bishops so many Elders so many deacons Io. Whitgifte And I say againe that they be most vnapt reasons for the Deacons office was not so troublesome but that the Deacons of one Citie might serue all the Churches and congregations belonging vnto the same neyther haue you read eyther in scripture or any auncient
order Wherby it should seeme that they haue learned to allowe of a prescript order of prayers but not of that prescript order which is in the booke of publike prayers This is no dallying neyther yet inconstancie For the. 3. of Mat. ver 12. is placed 3. of Mat. ver 1. to proue that in the olde time the word was preached before the sacramēts were ministred the place now alleaged is this In those dayes Iohn the Baptist came and preached in the vvildernesse of Iudea This proueth that Iohnpreached but it proueth not that whensoeuer Iohn did baptise then he did preache Oueragaynst these words the Nicene creede was not read in their cōmunion A protestation by the way is written in the margent Note that we condemne not the doctrine conteyned therein If you condemne not the doctrine therin what do you then cōdemne or why mislike you the cōmunion bicause that creede conteyning true doctrine is read at the celebration therof It is well that you make this protestation if you meane good fayth Here is also added the. 42. ver Act. 2. to proue that then the sacrament was ministred with cōmon vsual bread which place I haue answered before in answering to the. 46. verse of that chapter Where as before it was thus interrogatories ministred to the Infant Godfathers They allowe godfathers godmothers at the last and Godmothers brought in by Higinus nowe Godfathers and Godmothers brought it by Higinus is left out It is happy that you are sosoone persuaded to allow of godfathers and godmothers I perceyue you tooke vpon you to set downe a platforme of a Church before you had well considered of it Fol. 4. For some one of the congregation is nowe some of the congregation wherby they seeme to allowe mo godfathers than one whiche they dyd not before For the. 14. of the Acts verse 4. is noted the. 15. of the Acts vers 4. to proue that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Church with the rest of the ministers but without reason For it is onely there written that at Ierusalem there was Apostles and Elders that Paule and Barnabas declared vnto them what things God had done by them I denie not the thing it selfe whereof I haue sufficiently spoken before but the argument These Seniors then bicause their charge was not ouer muche did execute their office in their owne persons Nowe these words bicause their charge was not ouer much be lefte out Wherfore they haue left them out I knowe not Fol. 5. They haue lefte out Doctors three tymes in this leafe whiche before they recited with Chauncelors Archdeacons Officials Commissaries Why Doctors of 〈◊〉 be left out Proctors Belyke they haue remembred that this worde Doctor is founde in the newe Testament and especially Doctor of lawe To proue equalitie of ministers they haue added Phil. 1. verse 1. 1. Thes. 1. 1. The first place is this Paule and Timotheus the seruaunts of Iesus Christ to all Saincts in Christ Iesus that are at Philippi vvith the Bishops and Deacons The seconde is this Paule and Syluanus and Timotheus vnto the Church of the Thessalonians c. Truely I knowe not howe to conclude of those places an equalitie of all ministers I would to God you would set downe your places and frame your arguments yourselues Fol. 6. They haue forgotten to quote Heb. 6. 1. and haue left out the body and Tayle of Antichrist braunche of Antichrist and for the same haue put in the tayle But these are but trifles and very slender corrections Io. Whitgifte To all these there is nothing sayde belike the Authors of the Admonition muste answere for them selues or else prouide another Proctor Ansvvere to the additions c. of the seconde parte of the admonition Fol. 2. For the first of Tim. 3. verse 3. nowe they haue quoted 1. Tim. 3. verse 6. agaynst reading ministers Where S. Paul would not haue a minister to be a yong scholer but he speaketh nothing agaynst reading T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 2. Unto the seconde leafe of the addition of the second parte of the Admonition M. Doctor sayth that bicause the. 3. to Titus maketh not agaynst reading therfore it maketh not agaynst reading ministers that is ministers that can doe nothing but reade Io. Whitgifte It is in the. 1. Tim. 3. and it maketh agaynst vnlearned Ministers not agaynst the reading of Ministers for he may be a reading Minister and yet learned Ansvvere to the Detractions c. It was before reading is not feeding nowe it is thus amended for Correction of a sodeyne bare reading of the worde and single seruice saying is bare feeding whereby they now confesse that reading is feeding although it be as they say but bare feeding We were in good case if the platforme of our Church depended vpon these men which alter their iudgements so sodenly It is a true saying Conueniet nulli qui secum dissidet ipse Hovve can he agree vvith other that doth not agree vvith himselfe T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. vlt. And where as he would picke out a contradiction in the wordes of the Admonition bicause they say bare reading is but bare feeding the discord is in his cares not in their wordes For when they sayde it was no feeding they ment such feeding as could saue them and so in calling it bare feeding they note that there is not (*) This is anec m and contrarie to that which ou haue pa. 158. 〈◊〉 15. c. inaugh in that to keepe them from famishment And indeede vnlesse the Lord worke miraculously and extraordinarily which is not to be looked for of vs the bare reading of the scriptures without the preaching cannot deliuer so much as one poore shepe frō destruction and from the wolfe And if some haue bene conuerted wonderfully yet M. D. should remember that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is the water doth not alway beare yron Io. Whitgifte Reading is not feeding and reading is beare feeding be both vntruthes and derogate from the Maiestie and dignitie of the worde of God but yet in these speaches there is contrarietie for bare féeding is féeding What they ment by not feeding their words following doe declare for say they it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse to c. The Replier falleth into contrarietie whiles he seeketh to cleare the Admonition of it whereof I haue spoken before But whilst-you go about to excuse them of contrarietie you fall into it your selfe for page 158. of your booke comparing the reading of the Scriptures with reading of Homilies yeu say that the worde of God is also plaine and easie to be vnderstanded such as giueth vnderstanding to Idiots and to the simple c. And now you say that there is not enough in the reading of the scrptures to keepe the people from famishment c. the which how farre it differeth from your former words no man is so blind Pag.
churche is an ordinarie function in a Churche lawefully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship Io. Whitgifte In neither of these doth M. Beza so tie prouiding for the poore to Deacons that they must by them be prouided for and by no other hée onely sheweth what was done in this case in the Apostles tyme and in the tymes immediatly following but there is neyther Scripture nor any learned wryter that teacheth that the poore may be by no other prouided for than by Deacons You proue that which no man denieth and speake not one worde of the matter in question that is whether of necessitie the poore must be prouided for by Deacons and not otherwyse T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. to the Romaynes speaking of the Elders whiche did assiste the Pastor in euery Churche and of the Deacons lamenteth that this order is so fallen out of the Churche that the names of these functions do scarce remayne Io. Whitgifte That which Peter Martyr speaketh in that place is spoken generally of all that the Apostle had before wrytten touching the publike ministers of the Churche and therfore you doe vniustly restrayne it only to Elders and Deacons It maye euidentlye appeare that M. Martyr maketh there a comparison betwixt the gouerranent of the Churche of Christe in the Apostles tyme the gouernment of the Popes Church in his tyme as his wordes following declare for thus he addeth immediatly In steade of these they haue brought in Taperbearers Acoluthes and Subdeaco which with their light and stagelike gestures serue at their superstitious altar So that you can not gather of this place that your Seigniorie is perpetuall and must of necessitie for euer remayne in the Churche T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kyngdome of Christ for the auncients of the Churche sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chapter of the same booke sayeth that this order of Deaconship was religiously kept in the Churche vntill it was dryuen out by Antichriste Io. Whitgifte It had bene well to haue noted the chapter out of the which you gather that first saying of M. Bucer howebeit the matter is not great for the question is not whether the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the number of the people or no in such places where this kynde of gouernment is admitted but whether this kynde of gouernment muste of necessitie in all Churches and at all tymes be put in practise I doe not remember that M. Bu er any where affirmeth that In déede in the fifth chapter of the firste booke speakyng of these Seniors he sayeth Tales sanè possunt cum administris doctrinae Sacramentorum Christi disciplinam exercere c. Such may exercise the diseipline of Christe with the ministers of the worde and Sacramentes c. He sayeth they may doe it not that they ought to do it That whiche M. Bucer speaketh of the Deaconshippe in the 14. chapter is not denied but hee nowhere sayeth that the poore muste of necessitie hée prouided for by Deacons and by none other and hée teacheth in the same chapter that mo things apperteyned to the office of the Deacon than to prouide for the poore as namely to assiste the ministers in the administration of the Sacramentes and exercising of discipline What sufficient proofes these bée to induce that necessitie of the kynde of gouernment so greatly vrged by you let the learned Reader iudge T. C. 5 That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Churche M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke and 11. Chapter and. 6. Section teacheth that excommunication porteyneth not to one man and that it was to wicked a facte that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to hymselfe alone opened a waye to tyrannie tooke from the Churche hir right and abrogated the Church Senate ordeined by the spirite of Christe And in the. 12 chapter and. 7. Section he sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Churche Io. Whitgifte Wée graunte that no one man ought to take that vnto hym selfe which doth not apperteyne vnto him but I haue proued Tract 18. that excommunication perteineth to Byshops and that this Church of England hath consented there vnto wherefore M. Ca uine speaketh against that excommunication whiche the Pope violently and tyrannically vsurpeth and not against this whiche our Bishoppes in this Churche of Englande both by the lawes of God and consent of the Churche exercise I speake of the thing it selfe and not of the abuse T. C. M. Beza in his confessions 5. chapter 43. Section sayeth that this power of excommunicating is giuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the firste to the Corinthes and fifth chapter sayeth that it is very daungerous to permitte so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and wil of any one man And therefore both that tyrannie might be auoyded and this censure execeuted with greater fruite and grauitie that the order whiche the Apostles there vseth is still to be obserued Io. Whitgifte To M. Beza and M. Martyr I answere as I dyd to M. Caluine and yet M. Martyr séemeth to expounde hym selfe in the same place where hée speakyng against the committing of this authoritie of excommunicating to the Pope or to one Bishop and refelling this saying of the Papistes Episcopum esse totam ecclesiā virtualiter when as they be rather tora ecclesia vitialiter as he there affirmeth he addeth by and by de malis haec intelligas tyrannicè agentibus Vnderstande this of euill Dishops and such as deale tyrannically whereby he declareth that he speaketh agaynst the committing of this discipline to euill Bishops and such as vse it tyrannically T. C. M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ. in the. 1. book and. 9. chapter sayth that Saint Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole Church did not cast out of their companie the incestuous person Io. Whitgifte The question is not whether the whole Church may haue to doe in excommunication or no but whither the consent therof is al tymes therein to be required What the meaning of the Apostle is in that place to the Corinth I haue declared Tract 15. T. C. 6 That Chauncellours Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authoritie in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 7. Sect. speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they handle matters whiche perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction Io. Whitgifie M. Caluin in that place alledgeth no reasons at al against those offices only he sayth that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they
the state as they do then truly haue they to consider of such disturbers of the peace of the Church and according to their office and duty prouide a conueniente remedy for them knowing that it is the extreame refuge of Satan when by other meanes he cannot then to séeke the ouerthrow of the Gospell thorow contention about externall things The Epist. of T. C. Sect. II. An other exception against the fauorers of this cause is taken for that they propounde it out of time which is that the Jewes said that the time was not yet come to builde the Lords house but it is knowne what the Prophet answered And if no time wer vnseasonable in that kind of material building wherin there be some times as of sommer more opportune and fit than others how can there be any vntimely building in this spiritual house where as long as it is called to day men are commanded to further this worke And as for those which say we come to late that this shoulde haue bin done in the beginning and can not now be done without the ouerthrow of all for mending of a peece they do little consider that S. Paule compareth that which is good in the buylding vnto golde and siluer and precious stones and that whiche is euill layde vpon the foundation vnto stubble and hey and woode Likewise therfore as the stubble the hey the wood be easily by the fyre consumed without any losse vnto the gold or siluer or precious stones so the corrupt thynges in this buylding may be easily taken away without any hurt or hinderaunce vnto that whiche is pure and sounde And if they put such confidence in this similitude as that they will therby without any testimonie of the worde of God stay the further buylding or correcting the faultes of the house of the Lorde which by his manifest commaundement ought to be done with all spede then besides that they be verie vncunning buylders which can not mende the faults without ouerthrowe of al especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remember that as the mean which is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so it is called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous or superfluous branches or what soeuer hindereth the growth of the vine tree may be cut of without rooting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the Church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are wel established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is strange that the pure doctrine of the one and the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast together that pure doctrine can not be with hir safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather lyke vnto that parte of Daniels image which was compounded of claye and iron and therfore coulde not cleaue or sticke one with an other Io. Whitgifte They did not only propound it out of time after the Parliament was ended but out of order also that is in the maner of a libell with false allegations and applications of the Scriptures opprobrious speaches and slaunders not to reforme but to deforme the Church and to confound al. The rest in this part is Petitio principij the petition of the principle for you take that as confessed true which will not be graunted vnto you as shall more at large hereafter appeare The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 12. It is further sayd that the setters forward of this cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be founde to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessarie about whiche we contende then hath this accusation no ground to stand en For peace is commended to vs with these conditions if it be possible if it lye in vs. Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the Rom. 1 ▪ Cor. 10. truth we can doe nothing against it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better than a iust warre It is a diuine saying of an heathen man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is good to contend for good things The Papistes haue no matter of reioycing seyng they haue greater sharper controuersies at home and seing this tendeth both to the further opening of theyr shame and thrustyng out of their remnants whych yet remayne among vs. The weake may not be offended consyderyng that euen in the Church of God and among those of the Churche there hathe bene as greate varieties of iudgementes as these are For what weightier controuersies can there be than whether wee shall ryse agayne or no These were offences but woe to the authors whether circumcision were necessarye to be obserued of those whych beleeued And yet the fyrste was amongest the Churche of the Corinthes the other was fyrst in Hierusalem and Antioche and after in the Churches of Galatia and yet they the Churches and that the true religion whyche was there professed Io. Whitgifte It is very true and sufficiently proued in that Answere to the Admonition that the authours thereof bée contentidus and giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion professed and to the weake of offence For whosoeuer troubleth the peace of the Churche or deuide themselues from the Churche for externall thinges they be contentious but these men doe so therefore they be contentious the maior proposition is grounded vppon the woordes of Saincte Paule 1. Corinth 8. 9. and. 10. but especiallye vppon these woordes of the. 11. Chapter If anye bee contentious we haue no suche custome neyther the Churches of God Whereas he purposely speaketh of such as be contentious for externall matters wherevpon that is grounded that Bullinger saith That those be contentious which trouble and deuide the Bulling church for externall things And that also whiche Zuinglius in his book de baptismo speaking of contentious Anabaptistes writeth They goe about innouations of their owne priuate authoritie in those Churches where the Gospell is truly taught and that in externall Zuinglius de baptis things And in his Ecclesiastes he calleth them authours of contentions and troublers of the church which striue about externall matters And surely this is an euident token that Zuingl in ecclesiast the accusation is true bicause they and their companions for the mosre parte make contention wheresoeuer they come and especially in those places where the Gospell hath with most diligence bin taught as experiēce sufficiently proueth Furthermore the time and maner of publishing their pamphlets argueth y e same most euidently The truth and necessitie of those things for the which they contend rest as yet in triall Surely if they be matters necessarie to saluation then is there some iust cause of breking the peace of the Church for them but if they be matters of
wealth is not so muche but yet I would be loth to haue it common and you may not blame me though I maynteyne that state where all men may quietly enioye their owne without confusion I know the Anabaptistes doe not only erre in their kinde of reasoning but in the right vnderstanding of the Scriptures also euen of those places wherevppon they frame their argumente But the texte sayeth playnely Omnes qui credebant c. All whiche beleeued were in one place and had all thyngs common Acto 2. 4. Quotquot Act. 2. Act. 4. enim possessores praediorum aut domorum erant c. For as manie as were possessours of landes or houses solde them c. And thoughe they were greately to be commended in sellyng their landes and possessions and in so lyghtly estéeming the riches of this worlde yet it followeth not that no man can bée a good Christian vnlesse he followe that example There are sundrie places of the Scripture that ouerthrow the Anabaptisticall communitie and therefore howesoeuer they vnderstande these examples yet can they not proue theyr errour for it is true that Zuinglius sayeth Nullius facta iuri praeiudicant examples must giue place when they be agaynste a generall lawe commaundement or right I haue not spoken one woorde of Ananias and Saphira and therefore I muse to what purpose you bryng them in neyther am I agaynste the interpretation of those places of the Actes yet doe I saye that no man is bounde of necessitie to folowe those examples excepte it were in the lyke tyme and state So that if the Anabaptistes bothe erre in the vnderstandyng of those places and in theyr kynde of reasoning also as they doe in bothe M. Doctor maye kéepe his Doctorship still and they be farre enough from their communitie The communitie that was in the Apostles tyme was Christian and moste fitte for that tyme but the same maye not nowe be vrged in the selfe same maner and forme without suspicion of Anabaptisms And it is a very good argument againste you for as the communitie vsed amongste the Christians Act. 2. 4. was godlie and yet not necessarie nor méete for all states of the Churche euen so the election then vsed was also godlie and yet not at all tymes to be practised but only in the lyke state of time Chap. 4. the fyft Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 43. Lin. 20. Sect. 1. In the seconde to the Corinthians 8. the Apostle declareth how the Churches had chosen Luke or as some thinke Barnabas to be his companion in his iourney But what maketh this for electing of ministers howe followeth this argument The Churches had chosen Luke or Barnabas to be Paules companion in his iourney therfore ministers of the worde must be elected by the people These three laste reasons are all one and the places of Scripture whiche I haue sette downe and answered be alleaged of you to proue that the election of ministers was then made by the common consent of the people and that euery congregation had authoritie to call their ministers T. C. Page 31. Sect 4. Unto the place of the. 2. epistle to the Corinthians and. 8. chapter you aske what maketh that to the election of the ministers But why do not you say here as you did in the other place that the Apostle meaneth nothing else but the putting on of the handes of them which ordayned For the same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is here vsed that was there and this place doth manifestly and without all contradiction conuince your vayne signifycation that you make of it in the other place and the vntruth wherein you say that the scripture vseth this word for a solemne manner of ordering ministers by putting on of handes For heere it is saide that he that was ioyned with Paule was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the Church and it is manifest that the impositiō of hāds was not by the Church and people but by the elders and ministers as it appeareth in S. Paule to Timothie 1. Tim. 4. 2. Tim. 1. Now to come to that which you make so light of for say you how followeth this The Church chose Luke or Barnabas to be companion of Paules iourney Ergo the Churches must choose their ministers It followeth very well for if it were thought meete that S. Paule shoulde not choose himselfe of his owne authoritie a companiō to help him being an Apostle is there any Archbishop that shall dare take vpon him to make a minister of the Gospell being so many degrees both in authoritie and in all gifts needefull to discerne and trieout or take knowledge of a sufficient minister of the Gospell inferioure to S. Paule And if S. Paule would haue the authoritie of the Church to ordayne the Minister that should ayde him in other places to the building and gathering of other Churches howe much more dyd he thinke it meete that the Churches should choose their owne Minister which shoulde gouerne them which things may be also said of the election in the first of the Acts. For there the * Vntr Church first chose two whereof one should be an Apostle which should not be minister of that Church but should be sent into all the world so that always the Apostles haue shunned to do any thing of theyr owne willes without the knowledge eyther of those Churches where they instituted any gouernours or if it were for the behoofe of those places where there were no Churches gathered yet woulde they ordayne none but by the consente of some other Churche whiche was alreadye established Io. Whitgifte Of the acceptation of this worde in the. 14. of the Acts I haue spoken sufficiently This place is not one whit contrary to any thing that is said in that matter for in the 14. of the Acts it is referred to the appointing of ministers of the worde and in thys place of the secōd Cor. 8. it is applyed to the sending of some with Paule to gather the beneuolence of the Churches and to carrie the same to the poore Saints Now though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may signify the imposition of hands or the whole action of ordering ministers when it is referred to that matter yet doth it not follow that it should alwayes signify so to whatsoeuer it is applyed But take it as you list it is as well spoken of one alone as of many as the place Act. 10. manifestly declareth and therfore doth not of necessitie signify an election made by the people except some other word be ioyned with it to expresse the same as there is in this 2. Cor. 8. For thus the Apostle saithe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which addition should not haue néeded if this worde 2. Cor. 8. alone had of necessitie signifyed in the scripture any such election as you woulde haue it to do In the argument there is no sequele at all for it was very conuenient and méete
for it behoued the Apostles to be chosen immediatly of God In the election of Deacons Luke hath not set downe what the Church did obserue But in another place we may gather by Paule that they of Asia vsed the holding vp of hands which manner was vsuall with the most of the Graecians wherefore there is no cause why any man should ouercuriously prescribe here any certaine rule c. Now to reherse what varietie hath bin vsed in the Churches touching this election Uarietie vsed in the electiōs in y e pr tiue Churches Caluine were néedelesse it shall be sufficient only to set downe that which M. Caluine speaketh of it in his Insti cap. 8. Sect. 60. c. wher first he declareth that the rule of S. Paule touching the qualities of a minister is to be obserued and that he is to be examined according to the same Then doth he shew how that there hath not always one order bin obserued touching the electours and appointers for sometimes none was chosen without the consent of the whole people and other sometimes the people committed the choise to the Bishop and ministers or Seniors except it were in the election of the Bishop And sometimes onely the ministers did first choose and then offer those whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senat or to the chiefe rulers who ratifyed the election if they liked it if not then did they choose out other c. This varietie of electing ministers doth M. Caluine declare in that place It appeareth in the. 35. or as some counteth 36. of the canons attributed to the Apostles Can. Apost 36 that Bishops were not then chosen by the consent of the people for that canon speaketh of such Byshops as being appoynted to some Church were not receyued by the people and yet remayned Bishops still To the like effect is the. 18. can Con. Ancyra Con Ancyr can 18. Con. Antioch can 17. 18. Con Laodic can 12. Can. 13. T. C. seeketh a commaundement in the Ceremoniall law for the election of the ministers of the Gospell The place Numbers 8. proueth not his purpose and the. 17. and. 18. of the Councell of Antioch In the. 12. Canon of the Councell of Laodicea it is decréed that the Metropolitane with other Byshops adioyning should haue the election of Byshops and of such as are to be preferred to a cure And the. 13. Can. of the same councell doth forbid that the elections of ministers should be committed to the people So that you sée your manner of electing by the people not to haue bin in all Churches in all purer times It appeareth that you were put to a pinch for a commaundement to establish your manner and kind of electing ministers when you are constrayned to fetch one out of the booke of Numbers and that nothing at all perteyning to your purpose For what one word is there in that place that hath any shadow of your election First the people there did not elect the Leuits Secondly they laid their hands vpon them which I am sure you will not haue the people to do in the ordeyning of Byshops for you say that only elders and ministers vsed to lay on their hands So that this place of the Booke of Numbers doth commaund that whiche you will not admitte and speaketh not one word of that for the which you do alledge it But tell me in good earnest will you bind vs to the obseruation of the Ceremonial law also as you haue done before to the iudiciall For what else is there in that whole chapter but lawes touching ceremonies and in that place by you alleadged especially for there he speaketh of the manner of purifying of the Leuites and of their offering he speaketh not of any election For God himselfe had chosen the Leuites before for the first borne of the children of Israell cap. 3. I would to God men would but indifferently consider how vndiscréetely you alleadge the scriptures lest you should séeme to be voyde of scripture You say the people by laying on their hands did by that ceremonie consecrate them Would you haue the people to consecrate ministers by laying on of hands do you not care what absurdities and contrarieties you speake you make a distinction in that whiche followeth betwixte ordeyning electing and you say that election perteyneth to the people ordeyning to the Bishop Pag. 40. lin vlt. c. Pag. 31. sect 4. And in another place that the imposition of handes was not by the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers But if this be a commaundement for vs now to obserue then must you recant that saying I doe admitte this Scripture as a portion of the Ceremoniall lawe but I doe not The dealings of T. C. tend to Iudaisme admit it as a perpetuall commaundement bicause I knowe the Ceremoniall lawe is abrogated excepte you will haue all those Ceremonies whiche were vsed in that place and are conteyned in the same commaundement as of sprinkling them with water of shauing their bodies of washing their clothes of laying their handes on the heads of bullocks c. practized in ordering ministers of the Gospel Neither is this any title of Catabaptistrie but yours smelleth of Iudaisme for you bounde vs before to the Iudiciall law and now you will bind vs to the Ceremoniall also what remayneth but to say that Christ is not yet come Circumcision is a figure of baptisme but the Leuiticall priesthoode is no figure of the ministerie of the Gospell therfore we may well proue the baptizing of Infantes by circumcision but we can not proue the ordering of ministers of the Gospell by the ceremonies vsed about the Leuites Those examples of the Apostles doe well proue the baptizing of children bicause Gene. 17. Mat. 28. they be grounded vpon these generall places of the Scriptures Ego sum Deus tuus c. I am thy God and the God of thy seede c. and Mat. 28. Baptizantes omnes gentes Baptizing all nations The contention is not whether discipline c. be necessarie but whether one kinde be necessarie Of discipline also and gouernment I haue something spoken before and minde to speake hereafter when further occasion is offered in this place it is answere sufficient to say that the contention is not whether discipline or gouernment be necessarie in the Churche or no but whether this or that kinde of discipline and gouernment be necessarie and whether there be one certayne kinde and forme of discipline and gouernment to be vsed in the Churche at all times and in all places As for Pastors Bishops Doctors Deacons c. they be necessarie ministers in the Churche but it doth not therfore follow that there must be alwayes one kinde and forme of gouernment Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 1. And I adde that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kinde of electing and calling
Churche Io. Whitgifte This reason is buylded vpon a false grounde for it is certaine that many pastors The seconde reason examined are dearely beloued of their flockes whiche neither were elected by them desired of them nor knowne vnto them before And I thinke verily that there is not one parish in England which doth the worse loue or reuerence their pastors in that respecte excepts such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed not only with the spirite of discorde but of disdayne and contempt also towards all lawes orders and persons that be not in all poyntes framed according to their imaginations But would you that a Papistical parish suche as there may be diuers in England should choose their Pastor that they might loue him Surely then would they not choose a Protestant Or do men alwayes continue in louing of those whom they haue chosen You know that experience teacheth the contrary so long only do they loue him as he pleaseth them and serueth their affections whiche bycause he neither can nor ought to doe therefore their affection of loue is soone quenched and they beginne to hate and to contemne hym and the rather bycause they did choose him For in that respecte they thinke him more bound to please them Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3. And if it should happen which may come to passe that any Church should desire or choose or consente vpon by the moste parte some that is vnmeete eyther for doctrine or manners then the ministers Elders of the other Churches round about should aduertise first and afterwarde as Where find 〈◊〉 this maner and forme in the 〈◊〉 occasion shoulde serue sharpely and seuerely charge that they forbeare suche election or if it be made that they confirme it not by suffering him to exercise any ministerie And if eyther the Churches rounde about do fayle of this duetie or the Churche whiche is admonished rest not in theyr admonition then to bring it to the next Synode and if it rest not therin then the Prince or Magistrate whiche muste see that nothyng in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other which is conuenient Now I will examine the reasons whiche you adde to proue that althoughe in times paste the churche choosed theyr ministers yet now it must be otherwyse Io. Whitgifte What scripture haue you to proue that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete T. C. in pretending scripture bringeth in that which hath no warrante in scripture minister then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter c. and if they wyll not then to bring it to the nexte Synode if that wyll not serue then that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other more conuenient Where haue you I say either commaundement or example of any suche order in the whole scripture will you of your owne head and brayne take vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all Scripture And dare you so boldly condemne an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as thys of Englande is bycause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture Men may sée if they be not blynde what your meaning is You thinke peraduenture that if this were once brought to passe it should not be long or you were placed somewhere according to your desyre The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others looke Zuinglius in his Ecclesi But to come to a néerer examination of this your deuise First you haue forgotten T. C. contrarie to himself yourselfe for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul sayth 1. Cor. 2. Spiritulis omnia dijudicat he that is spirituall discerneth all thyngs c. That they were spirituall Pag. 33. Sect. and therefore coulde not be without discretion of ordering them selues in choosing their pastor and nowe you say if any churche shoulde by the most part choose some vnmeet man c. Whereby you confessr that they maye be deceyued contrarie to your former wordes Secondly your order is most vnperfitte full of intollerable inconueniences for The order which T. C. prescribeth vn perfecte full of inconueniences who shall complaine of this election to other Churches And when cōplaint is made who shall call them togither when they be called togither what order shal be taken for the auoyding of confusion tumult or who shal beare their charges or in what place shal they méete or how often Likewise If the churches round about do faile in this duetie c. who shall bring it to the next Synode or who shall summon the Synode or in what place shal it be kept or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor vntill the matter be determined or who shal complaine to y e Prince and magistrate or what if the Prince will not driue them to a new election but allow of the olde Do you not sée of what disorder contentions tumults inconueniences this your disordered order would be the cause For how many méetings of Churches should we haue how many Synodes what parts takyng what running vp and downe what losse of time what cause of offence what quarels yea what not But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to y e Prince or magistrate The Princes authoritie diminished and hir troubles encreased a good office that he must stand and behold al this and in the end only driue the parish to a newe election which also you say that he must doe Throughout your whole booke you take from the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters giue vnto him no more as I haue before declared than the very Papistes doe that is potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris For he muste onely at your commaundement execute suche lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised Agayne considering the great number of Parishes in this realme the varietie of mens myndes the diuersitie of opinions in Religion and the generall inclination in the heartes of men to dissent and disagrée among them selues it can not be but that in shorte space the Prince shoulde be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering of these confused and tumultuous elections so that she muste be constrayned to let passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe and be wholly troubled with hearing and redressing these matters Wherefore to conclude if you haue no better reasons for your popular elections than these I thinke it will be long before you can persuade any reasonable or wyse man to subscribe vnto it But nowe to the defense of my owne reasons The diuersitie betwixte the Apostles tymes and oures requireth a diuers kinde of gouernment and of ordeyning Ministers Chapter 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
by God therefore wee saye there are so manie heades of Churches as there are gouernours of countreys So that you sée the magistrate to be the head and chief gouernour of a particular church in this respect that it is a visible societie and must haue besides the spirituall an externall gouernment also whereof bicause the ciuill Magistrate is the head and chief therefore it can not be therin established without the ciuil magistrate Your spare speches for the authoritie of the Magistrate in the gouernment of the Church I will note in a seuerall place by themselues and therfore doe I the lyghtlyer passe them ouer in this place In the meane tyme this is no good argument to saye that the Magistrate is but a member of the Churche therefore he is not the heade and chiefe gouernoure thereof in earth for the head though it be the chiefe yet is it a parte of the bodie But you still confounde the visible and inuisible Churche of Christe the spirituall and externall gouernment of the same which confusion maye make you seeme to say something to suche as doe not diligently consider it when in very déede you say nothing to the ouerthrowe of any thing that I haue answered The Churche may be established without the magistrate touching true faith and the spirituall gouernment of it by Christe in the hearte and conscience of man How y t church may be established without a Magistrate but not touching the visible societie and the externall gouernment Upon this confusion also is that grounded whiche followeth that the Churche in the respect of Christ the head is a Monarchie c. For when I sayde that the state of the Churche was popular in the Apostles tyme I spake of the outward forme shewe and gouernment of it which therefore I call popular bycause the Churche it selfe that is the whole multitude had interest almost in euery thing especially whylest the Churche yet remained at Ierusalem I knowe that all these thrée kyndes of gouernmentes maye bée mixte together after dyuers sortes but yet the state of gouernment is named according to that whiche moste ruleth and beareth the greatest sway as when matters are moste commonly gouerned by the consent of the more parte of the people the state is called popular when by diuers of the best and wysest it is called optimorum status when by one it is called a Monarchie as in thys Realme in the Courte of Parliamente althoughe all the states be represented yet bycause the iudgemente confirmation and determination resteth in the Prince therefore the state is neyther Aristocratie nor Democratie but a Monarchie Euen so in the Apostles time especiallye as I haue sayde whylest the Churche remayned at Hierusalem thoughe they myghte be counted Optimates yet bycause moste thyngs in gouernmente were doone by the consente of the people therefore the state for that tyme was popular You saye that I shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauyng a Christian Magistrate and hauyng none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by the churches I haue shewed you before the reasons of it And nowe I adde this that for as muche as the Magistrate is the chiefe and principall Gouernoure of the Churches vnder Christe and oughte to haue a speciall care and regarde to and for the same It is not méete that anye thyng touching the gouernmente of the Churches or any publyke function perteyning therevnto shoulde bée otherwyse doone than he shall thynke conuenient and profitable for the present state of it And therefore well sayeth M. Musculus in his common places titu de verbi ministris Musculus It is not conueniente that those thinges whyche are publikely to bee doone or which concerne the people subiecte vnto them or to bee shorte are suche as concerne Religion and in that respecte perteyne vnto them excepte wee will saye with the fantasticall Anabaptistes that Christians may not bee Magistrates should be done without the consent and knowledge of the ciuile Magistrate And againe wherefore for the condition of tyme necessitie required that the Magistrates and Princes by the meanes of a fewe men which were of excellent iudgement and had a care that the Church of Christ should be prouided for might herevnto be induced that they might appoint faithfull and learned Pastours ouer their subiects And titulo de magistratibus speaking of the Ciuil magistrate he sayth Firste that he shoulde place ministers of Churches where they are wanting whether he chooseth them himselfe or confirmeth them whiche are chosen of others by his commaundement For it is not conuenient that any man should take vpon him anye publike offices in the Church without the authoritie of the publike magistrate But you will saye it was otherwise in the primitiue Churches in whiche the prelates of the Churches were chosen of the ministers and the people I answere Suche was then the state of the Churches that the ministers were not otherwise to be chosen bicause they had not a Christian magistrate if you call backe the manners of those tymes first call backe the conditions and state of them also The Prince hath to sée that all thyngs be doone in the Churche orderly and profitably and therfore hath he the altering and changing of suche elections Your offering of an hundreth differences betwene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace shall goe with that bragge whiche you vsed Fol. 22. where you offered twentie to one c. But to what purpose make you this offer the more differences there are betwéene them the more is my cause iustifyed But you will be bolde to shewe meehow that if it were lawfull to breake the order of God c. and I will also be as bolde to answere your reasons seuerally Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 1. In the tyme of persecution a churche chooseth an vnlearned minister or one that is wicked in lyfe howesoeuer it be he is vnfit the Churches rounde aboute by their ministers or Elders admonishe this churche of her faulte and moue to correcte it the Churche will not by no meanes be admonished what can now the other churches doe in the tyme of persecution if they excommunicate the whole churche it is a harde matter and yet if they maye doe that there is all they can doe the euill is not remedied which may be easily taken away where there is a godly Magistrate and the Churche as is before sayd compelled to a better choyse So you see that there are * This is but one and yet none in deede for the case you put is verie vnlikely se the tyme you speake of inconueniences in the choosing of the Pastor and other the gouernours of the churche by the churche in the tyme of persecution which are not in the tyme of peace vnder a christian Magistrate Io. Whitgifte This is your only reason to proue that in a Churche persecuted it is méeter for the
a Minister of the worde To conclude if the election of a Byshop had of necessitie perteyned to the people Paule woulde not haue written in this manner to Timothie as he hath done describing vnto him what qualities he that is to be elected Byshoppe oughte to haue but he woulde rather haue written the same to the people or willed Timothie to declare it vnto them Neyther doth he any where in any of hys Epistles wryte to any Church to gyue them any instructions in this so necessarie a matter but onely wryteth of the same in those Epistles to Timothie and Titus beyng Byshops which maye be an argument that the ordering of Ministers doth properly apperteyne to a Bishop and that thys also manus citò c. is spoken to Timothie in that respect A man mave wryte to hys friende that hath interest in an election but Paul doth not onely write vnto Timothie as to one that hath interest but as to one in whom the whole interest consisteth When you say that Paule attributeth that to Timothie that was common to him wyth moe if you meane moe Bishops then it is true for it is a rule for all Bishops to follow but if you meane other of the people then doe you but shifte of the matter with ghessing To your proofes of that phrase and kynde of speache I haue answered before it is but a starting hole to flie vnto when you are foyled by the playne and euident woordes of the Scripture That whiche is by you alleaged 2. Ti. 1. and 1. Ti. 4. maketh for my purpose for you haue before confessed that imposition of handes was not by Fol. 31. Sect. 4. the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers and you alleage these places 1. Timo. 4. and 2. Timo. 1. to proue the same And therefore I muche maruell to what ende you nowe alleage them excepte it be to proue your phrase for they cannot proue anye election made by the people vnlesse you will say and vnsay at your pleasure But to put you out of doubt imponere manus to lay on hands somtimes signifieth the To laye on hands is diuersly taken Bullinger ceremonie only of laying on of hands and somtimes the whole maner forme of ordering And in this second signification it is taken 1. Ti. 5. 2. Ti. 1. Bull. expoundyng this place 1. Ti. 5. sayth manus enim imponere aliud non est quā ecclesiae aliquē praeficere ordinare To lay on hands is nothing else but to ordeine appoynt one ouer the Church And interpreting y t also 2. Ti. 1. he saith Paulus in praesenti per donū dei prophetiae donū intellexit functionē Episcopalē ad quam vocarat Timotheū dominus sed per ministeriū Pauli qui ideò nunc ▪ dicit donum illud in Timotheo esse per impositionem manuum suarum Paul doth heere vnderstande by the gifte of God the gifte of Prophecie and the offyce of a Bishop vnto the which the Lord had called Timothie but by the ministerie of Paule who for that cause nowe sayth that that gift was in Timothie by the imposition of his hands And M. Caluine Institu Cap. 8. Sect. 50. decideth this matter fully in these wordes Sed Paulus ipse alibi se Caluine c. But Paule himselfe in another place doth testifie that he and no moe did lay his hands vpon Timothie I admonishe thee sayth he that thou stirre vp the grace which is in thee by the imposition of my handes For where it is sayde in the other Epistle of the laying on of the handes of the eldership I do not so take it as thoughe Paule spake of the Colledge of Elders but in this name videlicet presbyterij I vnderstand the ordination it selfe as if he should say endeuour thy selfe that the grace be not in vayne which thou hast receyued by the laying on of hands when I ordeyned thee a minister Agayne vpon this 1. Tim. 5. he sayth thus Impositio manuum ordinationem significat signum enim pro re ipsa capitur The imposition of handes signifieth the ordering for the signe is taken for the thing it selfe For what is it to appoynt but to call elect ordeyne Moreouer that which Paule sayth to Titus Vt constituas c. dothe expounde this to Timothie manus citò c. and therefore in déede I make no difference in this place betwixte election ordeyning and imposition of handes Last of all you say that you answere though this mighte agree to Timothie alone c. If it agreed to Timothie alone it must néedes followe that it may agrée to other Bishops also for Timothie was a Bishop as it shall be by better reason proued than you Tract 8. are able to shewe any to the contrarie This that you speake of his Euangelistship and of his superioritie in that respect is onely spoken without reason or authoritie but you shall haue store of bothe to the contrarie God willing when I come to that place I am not so lauishe of my witnesses as you are of scornefull and vnséemely tauntes and speaches Bothe Ambrose and Chrysost. doe not say that Paule héere warneth Timothie onely to be circumspect but to be circumspect in appoynting of Ministers and if it were not so I doubt not but that I shoulde heare of it The words are spoken to Timothie in respecte that he was Bishop neither hath the Apostle giuen any suche like Admonition to any Church in any of his Epistles as I haue before noted And therfore Ambrose in his exposition of this place to Timothie after that he had shewed what circumspection the Apostle would haue to be vsed in ordeyning of Ministers concludeth thus Haec Episcopus custodiens castum se exbibebit religioni A Bishop obseruing Ambrose these things shall shewe himselfe pure in religion Whereby he signifieth that this precept is properly perteyning to a Bishop Chrysostome also in the. 1. Tim. 4. vpon Chrysostome these wordes Cum impositione manuum presbyterij sayth Non de presbyteris hoc loco sed de Episcopis loquitur ▪ non enim profectò presbyteri ipsum ordinarunt He speaketh not of priests in this place but of Bishops for certaynely priestes did not ordeyne him And Oecolam Oecolampad vpon the same wordes Presbyteros dicit Episcopos neque enim presbyteri Episcopum ordinabant He calleth Bishops Priestes for Priests did not ordeyne a Bishop Whereby it playnely appeareth that these auncient fathers thinke this precept manus citò ne cui imponas lay thy handes sodenly on no man to be giuen onely to Timothie in the respect that he was Bishop and therefore also to apperteyne vnto Bishops onely to ordeyne Ministers Hierome vpon that place to Titus sayth Audiant Episcopi qui habent constituendi Hierome Presbyteros per vrbes singulas potestatem sub quali lege ecclesiasticae potestatis ordo teneatur Let Bishops which haue authoritie to appoynt
by M. Doctor that they are but for a time Io. Whitgifte If you meane Prophetes in the respecte of the gifte of telling thinges to come Act. 11. suche as Agabus was then be they temporall but yet ordinarie for the tyme wherin Prophetes in some respecte ordinary they were But if you meane Prophets in respecte of their dexteritie and readinesse in expounding the Scriptures suche as Barnabas was and Simon Lucius Act. 13. c. and Saule Likewyse suche as Iudas and Silas Actes 15. and suche as the Apostle Act. 15. S. Paule speaketh of 1. Corinth 14. I sée no cause why eyther the calling 1. Cor. 14. should be extraordinary or the â—ffice and gifte temporall excepte you haue a libertie to make temporall and perpetuall ordinarie and extraordinarie what you please But seeing you woulde haue all thinges proued by Scripture I pray you proue this that you haue sayde eyther of the Aposâ—les Euangelisâ—s or Prophetes by the Scripture séeing you teache that of them which seemeth to be contrary vnto the Scripture Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect 2. The ordinarie and continuall functions of the Churche are also deuided into two partes for eyther they are they that gouerne or take charge of the whole Churche as are those which are called Elders or they which take charge of one parte of the Churche whiche is the poore of euery Churche as are those which are called Deacons Those agayne that be called Presbyteri which we tearme Elders of the Churche and haue to doe with the whole Churche are eyther those whiche teache and preache the worde of God and gouerne too or else whiche gouerne onely and do not teache or preache Of the first kinde are Pastors and Doctors Or the second are those which are called by the common name of Elders or auncientes Of all this ordinarie function I shall haue occasion to speake and of euery one shall appeare that which I haue sayde before that they are no vncertayne and vndefinite ministeries but suche as are limitted vnto a certayne Churche and congregation And first of all for the Pastor or Bishop whiche is heere mentioned whiche name soéuer we consider of them they doe foorthwith assoone as they are once eyther spoken or thought of imply and inferre a certayne and definite châ—rge beeing as the Logitians terme them actuall relatiues For what shepheard can there be vnlesse he haue a flocke and howe can he be a watcheman vnlesse he haue some citie to looke vnto Or howe can a man be a master vnlesse he haue a seruaunt or a father vnlesse he haue a childe Nowe if you will saye that they haue a charge and they haue flocks and cities to attende and watche vpon for a whole shire or prouince or realme are their flockes and their Cities and their charges Io. Whitgifte This diuision also is of your owne inuenting neyther haue you any mention of Seniors as you call them or of Deacons in that fourth Chapter to the Ephesi whiche you would haue to be so perfecte a rulè of ecclesiasticall functions As for Pastors and Doctors you knowe that diuers bothe auncient and late writers as namely Hierome Augustine Chrysostome Musculus and Bucer c. do confounde them and the reason that Hieroine vseth can not be well denyed because the Apostle sayth not as he dyd before of the other alios Pastores alios Doctores some Pastors Eph. 4. and other some Doctors but he ioyneth them togither and sayth alios Pastores Doctores some Pastors and Doctors M reouer I sée not howe you can iustifie your diuision of Seniors by the worde of God as I shall further declare in that place where Tract 17. you more largely speake of them In the meane time I sée no reason why your vnpreaching and vnministring Seniors shoulde haue any perpetuitie in the Churche more than Apostles for the cause that I haue before alleadged neyther haue you yet proued that the Deacons office is onely to prouide for the poore you haue examples to the contrarie as I haue declared in my Answere To be shorte I vnderstande not howe you can make Doctors gouernours of any seuerall parishes and Churches except you will make them Pastors But bicause you onely speake héere and proue nothing I will differre a further answere vnti l I heare more sounde argumentes You saye a shepheard can not be vnlesse he haue a flocke c. all which is true but he is also a shepheard that hath mo flockes and he is a shepheard that hathe a generall care and ouersight of many shepheards and many flockes For he that hathe many flockes and many shepheards may haue one master shepheard to sée that all the rest doe their duties and that the shéepe be kepte in good order And thoughe euery seuerall Citie haue seuerall watchemen whiche watche by course yet maye there be one that hathe an especiall care ouer all and is appoynted to see the rest do their duties So one master maye haue many seruauntes one father many children Wherefore if you vse this reason to improue the office of a Bishop it lacketh mighte if to proue that a Pastour muste haue a flocke no man dothe denie it but if to conclude that no man maye preache vnlesse he haue a certayne flocke there is no sequele at all in it for first you muste proue that the onely office of a Pastor is nowe remayning in the Churche and that no man can be minister of the words and Sacraments except he be a Pastor of some certayne flocke for that doe I constantly denie Chapter 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 3. First of all in your reading ministers that is vntrue for they goe not to eade in all Churches but arrie till they be hyred in one And therfore when the Bishop hath layde his hande of Petitio principij them â–ª they are no more Ministers than before his hande came vpon them bicause they haue no charges and therefore the patrone or person that hireth them to reade and setteth them a worke are their Bishops and make them ministers and not the Bishop of the Diocesse Io. Whitgifte These be but words grounded vpon this false principle that none oug te to be admitted into the ministerie but suche as haue a certayne cure and charge which you are neuer able to proue eyther by Scripture or good reason but the contrarie is manyfest by bothe Chapter 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 4. Secondarily for those that preache to haue a whole Diocesse or Prouince or Realme to be their flocke or Citie to attende vpon is contrarie to the pollicie or good husbandrie of all those that woulde eyther haue their Citie safe or their flockes sounde For who are they whyche woulde appoynte one for the watche of a thousande townes or cities when as all they whiche loue their safetie woulde rather haue for euery citie many watchemen
sayth that Paule would take nothing P. Martyr in 1. Cor. 9. that he might the more freely reprehend You aske me also why that man that is so able and will be content may not teach and be the Pastor of a Church c. I answere that he may and if he will But I aske you agayne what if he be perswaded that he shall doe more good by going to suche places where there is greater want of preaching What lawe or order is there established by God to the contrarie where is that law or that order Set it truely downe and I yelde vnto it else can I not but dissent from you séeyng I sée manifest examples in the Scripture to the contrarie and euē your owne example also in your owne person which ought to haue moued you to a publike confession if you haue all this while vsurped an vnlawfull vocation as certeinly you haue done if this your assertion be true Of Ceremonies vsed in ordeyning Ministers Chap. 2. the first Diuision The Admonition But now Byshops to whome the right of ordering Ministers doth at no hand apperteine doe make 60. 80. or 100. at a clappe and sende them abroade into the countrey lyke masterlesse men Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 47. Sect. 3. That the ordering of Ministers doth apperteine to Byshops properly Ordering of ministers perteineth to Byshops which you here vtterly denie I haue proued before they be beste able to iudge of mens abilitie to that function It is their especiall charge to see that there be meete Ministers in the Churche and therfore good reason that they should haue the chiefe stroke in ordering of them yet in that businesse they trust not themselues alone they haue other godly and learned ministers to assist them in examining suche as are to be admitted they also require a testimoniall of life and conuersation from that place wherein those that are to be Ministecs haue bene latest and longest remaining Page 48. Sect. 1. 2. If such numbers as you say be admitted at one tyme and sent abroade lyke maisterlesse men that is the faulte of the person not of the law neyther is it a sufficient cause to debarre any learned godly and meete man from the ministerie able to lyue of him selfe or hauing any other Ecclesiasticall liuing as prebend felowship in some colledge of eyther vniuersitie or suche like thoughe he haue no Pastorall charge and cure neyther shall you euer be able to proue but that a man disposed and able to doe good in the Churche of Christe may be admitted into the ministerie although he haue no ecclesiasticall liuing at all I mislike runnagates and masterlesse men and such as are compelled to seke vp and downe to get them seruices aswell as you and I hope the redresse thereof is alreadie determined T. C. Page 44. Sect. 4. For the rest conteyned in those Pages touching the ordeining of Ministers or Byshops I haue before spoken at large Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered to the most of this that is in this portion conteined and especially touching ordeining of Bishops and ministers Chap. 2. the second Diuision Admonition The eyght Then after iust triall and vocation they were admitted to their function by laying on of the hands of the company of the (vv) 1. Ti. 4. 14. eldership onely Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 49. Sect. 1. 2. Of tryall and vocation I haue spoken before To proue laying on Of laying on of handes of hands c. is alleaged the first of Timothie the fourth Chapter this is but a ceremonie and it is now vsed for the Bishop and other learned and graue Ministers there present doe lay their hands vpon such as are admitted into the ministerie Now if you would knowe what is here ment by seniors you may learne if you please of Oecumenius a learned and olde writer who expoundeth this place of Timothie on this sort 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 By seniors he meaneth Byshops and so saythe Chrysostome inlike maner T. C. Pag. 44. Sect. 5. Oecumenius and Chrysostome say that by Elders he meaneth Bishops (a) An vntruthe for Chrysostome maketh a manyfest distinction not thereby to seuere th se that had the gouernment of the Churche togither with the pastor and minister of the worde which were called auncients as you seeme to meane but to put distinction betweene those which are Elders by age and Elders by office besides that it is before alleaged that it maye be that the pastor or Bishop dyd in the name of all the Elders lay on his handes vpon him that was ordeyned And lastly you knowe and can not denie that S. Paule in one or two places confoundeth the Bishop and the Elder Io Whitgifte The wordes of Chrysostome and of Oecumenius be euident as you might haue perceyued if you woulde haue taken paynes to reade the places For the wordes of Chrysostome be these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He Chrysost. in 1. Tim. 4. speaketh not here of Elders but of Bishops 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for certaynely the Elders did not ordeyne the Bishop Howe say you be not these wordes playne that he meaneth Bishops and not other Ministers And M. Beza in Beza his notes vpon this place sayth thus Presbyterij 1. ordinis presbyterorum quo nomine probabile est coetum omnium illorum significari qui verbo laborabant in Ep esiorum ecclesia Of the eldership that is to say of the order of Elders by whiche name it is likely that the companie of them whiche laboured in the worde in the Churche of Ephesus are signified Vt Acto 20. Wherby it is certayne that he secludeth your vnministring Seniors Chap. 2. the third Diuision Admonition Nowe there is neyther of these beeing looked vnto required an Albe a surplesse a vesti A slaunderous vntruthe ment a pastorall staffe Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 49. Sect. 3 ▪ In the booke nowe allowed of making Deacons ministers and consecrating of Bishops there is neyther required Albe Surplesse vestiment nor pastoral staffe reade the booke from the beginning to the ending And therfore this is a false and vntrue reporte Io. Whitgifte This is confessed by silence and therfore here the Admonition conteyneth a manifest vntruth and wanteth a proctor Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision The Admonition Beside that ridiculous and as they vse it to their new creatures blasphemous saying receiue the holy Ghost Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 49. Sect. 4. vlt. To vse these wordes receiue the holy Ghost in ordering of Ministers which Christ him selfe vsed in appoynting his Apostles is no more ridiculous and blasphemous than it is to vse the wordes that he vsed in the Supper But it is blasphemie thus outrageously to speake of the wordes of Christ. The Byshoppe by speakyng these words doth not take vpon hym to giue the holy Ghost no more than he dothe to remitte synnes when he pronounceth the remission of synnes but by speakyng these
so good a grace in them Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 56. Sect. vlt. And if there bee anye other argumentes touchyng anye of these poyntes in other places whiche I haue not gathered together into one the faulte is in thys that I coulde not bestowe so muche tyme in makyng a harmonie of the thynges whiche are at so greate dyscorde and then that whyche is lefte oute shall bee answered in place where I shall fynde it Nowe lette vs see M. Doctors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and second nauigation touching apparel whether it bee any happier or haue any better successe than the fyrst Io. Whitgifte A proper excuse if any thing fall out in the whole booke whiche you can not answere as there be diuers which you haue not answered Diuers things concerning apparell in other places of the Ansvvere Chap. 6. the fyrst Diuision Admonition Nowe we muste haue Surplisses deuised by Pope Adrian Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 105. Sect. 1. 2. THe impurities you fynde in the administration of Baptisme bee these Surplis c. Touching the Surplis and suche lyke apparell I haue spoken before sufficiently the fyrste inuentor of it whyche you say to be Pope Adrian dot he make it neyther better nor woorse and yet it was vsed long before Adrians tyme neyther can you proue hym to be the fyrst inuentor thereof It is certayne that such kynde of vesture hath bene vsed in the ministration of the Sacramentes long before any corruption of doctrine tooke place in the Churche as it appeareth both by Hierome in his fyrst booke Aduersus Whyte garmente vsed in the ministration Pelagi where he maketh manifeste mention of a whyte garmente vsed in the Administration of Sacrifice by the Byshoppe Prieste and Deacon And also Chrysostome Hom. 6. to the people of Antioche who speaketh of the lyke garmente worne in the Churche Those that answered the examiner do but chyldishly cauill at these two places whyche in deede bee playne of themselues and euident and so is that of Hieromes also vpon the. 44. of Ezechiell The religion of God hath one habite in the ministration and an other in cōmon vse and lyfe Reade the place considerately and it shall easyly appeare that Hierome meaneth as well of Christian Ministers as of Iewishe Priestes But of the vse of this and other apparel prescribed in this Church to be worne by ministers I haue spoken partly before and am ready to speake more as occasion shall be offered In the meane tyme the Surplis is not of the substance of Baptisme neyther required as necessarie to the Administration therof but as comely and decent T. C. Page 57. Sect. 1. In the. 105. page M. Doctour to proue the vse of the Surplice to drawe out his booke into some competent volume borroweth certayne places of the examiner for answere wherevnto I will referre the reader to that whiche is answered vnto the examination as to a full and sufficient answere wherein I will reste and when M. Doctor hathe proued that whiche he sayeth that it is but a chyldish cauill he shall then heare further In the meane season it is but a slender replie to so learned an answere that proueth bothe out of other authours and out of those same whiche the examiner citeth that by a white garmente is mente a comely apparell and not slouenly to saye it is but a chyldish cauill whych a D. of Diumitie and of fortie yeares of age can not answere The place of Hierome vppon the 44. of Ezechiell the more it bee consydered the more shall appeare the truthe of the Answere Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered one worde of this but only shifted it of I purpose not A whyte garmente in the ministration vsed in Hieromes tyme. Hiero. lib. 1. aduers. Pelagi l 44. Ezecb. at this tyme to vnrippe the answere to the Examiner except you had taken the paines to set it downe Both the places of Hierome are to be séene in the one he sheweth that in the administration of the Sacramentes the Bishoppe Prieste and Deacon didde weare a white vesture And in the other he sayeth that the Religion of GOD hathe one habite in the ministration and an other in the common vse and lyfe Ioyne these two places together and sée whether the woords of Hierome be manyfest or no. And that it may euidently appeare that at this tyme wherein Hierome lyued the maner was to weare white garments in the tyme of diuine seruice and Administration of Sacramentes I will recite the wordes of the fourthe Councell of Carthage at the which there were present 214. Bishops among whome was S. Augustine Diaconus tempore oblationis tantùm vellectionis alba induatur Let the Deacon weare a whyte Con. Carth. 4. Can. 41. vesture only in the tyme of the oblation and reading Canone 41. And this may be a sufficient confutation to what soeuer is spoken of these places of Hierome in the answere to the Examiner Chap. 6. the second Diuision Admonition And as for the apparell though we haue ben long borne in hande and yet are that it is for order and decencie commaunded yet we knowe and haue proued that there is neither order nor com ynesse nor obedience in vsyng it There is no order in it but confusion no comlynesse but deformitie no obedience but disobedience both against God and the Prince Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 236. the last lyne but one Pag. 237. Sect. 1. TO all this also I haue answered before I meane to all the reasons here alleadged as for bare wordes they preuayle with none but suche as haue respecte to the persons not to the matter And therfore I omit these wordes of pleasure which you vse when you saye that in this apparell there is no order but confusion no comelynesse but deformitie no obedience but disobedience both against God and the Prince It is not euery priuate mannes parte to define what is order and comlynesse in externall matters being indifferente but is proper to Disobedience to the prince in ciuill matters is disobedience to God them only to whom God hath committed the gouernmente of hys church whose orders and lawes not beeing against the woorde of God whosoeuer doth disobey disobeyeth both God and the Prince as you do in disobeying the Princes lawes in these matters Io. Whitgifte Nothing is sayd to this although some part of it necessarily requireth an answer Chap. 6. the third Diuision Admonition We maruell that they coulde espie in the laste synode that a gray Amyse whiche is but a garment of dignitie should be a garment as they say defyled with superstition and yet that copes caps surplesses tippets and suche lyke baggage the preaching signes of Popishe priesthoode the Popes creatures kepte in the same forme to this ende to bring dignitie and reuerence to the ministers and sacraments should be reteyned still and not abolished Answere to the Admonition Pag. 237. Sect. 2. It
you meane that eyther all kinde of ecclesiasticall discipline and gouernment is committed to all such as preach the worde or in as ample manner to one as to another you haue not yet proued it neyther will you be hable to proue it with all the learning that you thinke your selfe to haue That in 1. Tim. 5. doth proue no such matter as you pretende For what doth What it is to rule well S. Paule meane there by gouerning well Christ Ecclesiae suae tum doctrina tum integritate vitae fideliter inseruire non suased quae Dei sunt quaerere to serue Christ and his Church faythfully both in doctrine and integritie of lyfe to seeke not those things which are his but those which are Gods Thus do the learned interpreters expound bene praeesse in this place Is not the office of teaching exhorting reprouing an office of ruling and gouerning But you say that the Apostle doth make two kinde of gouernours one that trauayleth in the worde the other that doth not And what then he that diligently doth that office that is committed vnto him whether it be in preaching the worde prouiding for the poore visiting the sicke or any such lyke function doth rule well But doth it therefore follow that all haue like authoritie or that there is no kinde of Ecclesiasticall gouernment or discipline but that which is common to all the ministers of the worde Certayne it is that euery Pastor that doth his duetie in All ministers gouerne but not alike preaching ruleth well and so do they also that duely and truly administer the Sacraments relieue the poore visite the sicke priuately admonish c. But is there therefore none that hath superioritie ouer them to procure that those things be done accordingly to correct them if they be not done to sée that euery man be kept in order be obedient to lawes teach true doctrine breake not vnitie c This place therefore helpeth you not For although all ministers of the woorde rule and gouerne after a sort yet do not they al so in all kinde of gouernment nor equally for they also must haue gouernours But consider your reason or at the least the end of your drifte All ministers of the Wherevnto 〈◊〉 dust of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 worde gouerne their parishes by preaching the woorde rebuking sinne c. Ergo th y must haue none to gouerne them and kéepe them in order and sée that they do their duetie it is all one with this Euery Master of a familie ruleth ouer his familie ▪ and therefore he must haue no superïour to rule ouer him or euery chiefe officer of Cities or Townes be rulers and gouernours of those places therfore they must haue none to rule and gouerne either their cities and townes or themselues In déed this is a plausible doctrine to make euery Pastor chiefe gouernour within his owne parishe and to make euery citie and towne a kingdome within it selfe but it is a pestilent doctrine for in short time there would be as many Popes as Pastors as many religions as parishes as many sectes as families and in the end an ouerthrow both of religion the Churche and the kingdome Neyther coulde there possibly haue bene inuented a more readier way for the Pope to make his entrie in hither againe Of your distinction of Presbyter I will speake in a more fitte place I haue not forgot my selfe but you neyther vnderstande as it appeareth my writings neyther yet your own for hyther to you haue fought wythout an aduersarie And yet I muste put you in minde of your falsehoode and subtill dealing for whereas I saye that the Apostle in the. 4. Ephe. speaketh onely of those ministers and ministeries which are occupied in prayers the worde and administration of the sacraments you by displacing the woorde only make your Reader beléeue that I affirme the Apostle to speake in that place of those that meddle with the ministring of the word and Sacraments onely as if I shoulde seclude the ministers of the worde from all kinde of gouernment Chap. 1. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. And least any man should say I confute my owne shadow I must let him to vnderstand that there is a Pamphlet in Latin which is called the (*) The booke named but 〈◊〉 you haue consuted your shadow and not the boke as hath appeared boke of the Doctors which goeth from hande to hande and especially so far as they could bring to passe to those only that they thought to fauour that opinion in the which booke all these answeres vnto the place of the Ephesians are conteyned and almost all that which is comprehended in this defense of Archbyshops and Archdeacons wyth other things also which are founde in this booke of M. Doctors and therefore it is very likely that he hauing no other way to vent his rapsodies and rackings togither thought he would bring them to light after this sort But how much better had it bene that this mishapen thing had had the mothers wombe for the graue or being brought out had bene hidden as the former is in some bench-hole or darke place where it shoulde neuer haue seene any light nor no mans eye should euer haue loked of it Io. Whitgifte It had bene much for your credite if you had set downe the wordes of that booke the which you and your fautors in derision cal the booke of Doctors Which you haue only named and not cōfuted The booke dare abide the light and the Author also but so dare not you To the rest of your woordes my answere is onely this that you bewray your spirite for further proofe hereof I referre the reader to the third Chapter of S. Iames from the tenth verse to the end Chap. 1. the. 29. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. And thus al these clowds being scattered by the sunne of the truth you see that the place to the Ephesians standeth strong against the Archbyshop and Archedeacon Io. Whitgifte Nothing lesse but the contrary for any thing that you haue spoken yet Chap. 1. the. 30. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. Pag 66. Sect. 1. Nowe I will reason also after this sort out of the place of the Ephesians and Corinthians ioyned together There is no function but hath giftes fit and apte to discharge it annexed and gyuen vnto it wherevpon the Apostle by a Metonomie doth call the Apostles Prophets c. giftes bycause they haue alwayes giftes ioyned with them This being graunted as no man can denie it I reason thus (a) Syllogisme without all forme Those functions only are sufficent for the church which haue all the gifts needefull eyther for the ministring of the worde and sacraments or for the gouernment of the churche but all these functions reckened of S. Paule to the Ephesians with those which S. Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are the Deacons and elders
to shewe that in citing him in this manner and forme that I doe I doe no otherwyse than other godly and learned men haue done You shal vnderstande ere I come to an ende that I haue not alleadged him for any néede Your argument to proue that Iames was no Archebishop bicause Eusebius and other doe call him Bishop and not Archebishop is of the same nature that your other arguments be that is ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore must be sent away with the same answere Whether the Apostles placed Iames and Simeon at Ierusalem or no is not the question But you are something deceyued in your quotation for you should in the place of the. 22. chapter of Eusebius haue noted the. 11. chapter The place of Ireneus thoughe it make not agaynst any thing that I haue spoken if it were as you doe alleage it yet muste I tell you that it is by you not truely vnderstoode For Ireneu dothe not saye that the Apostles dyd togither in euery place Irenaeu appoynte Bishops but he sayth Secundum successiones Episcoporum quibus illi eam quae in vnoqueque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt According to the succession of Bishops to whome they committed the Churche that was in euery place Meaning that euery one of the Apostles dyd appoynt Bishops in those Churches whiche they had planted as S. Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And notwithstanding that in some Churches the Apostles togither dyd place Bishops yet that in other Churches whiche they planted Sometime one Apostle did appoynt Bishops Tertulli de praescript they dyd the same seuerally it is manyfest not onely by these examples of Timothie and Titus but of sundry other whereof we maye reade in ecclesiasticall histories and namely of * Policarpus made Bishop of Smirna by S. Iohn And you your selfe testifie the same of S. Iohn out of Eusebius euen in the nexte section Moreouer it can not be gathered eyther out of the wordes of Ireneus or any other ecclesiasticall historie that the Apostles dyd place Bishops any where but in the chiefe and principall Townes and Cities committing vnto them the gouernment of other Uillages and Townes and the appoynting of seuerall Pastors for them as it is also euident in the foresayde examples of Timothie and Titus and the wordes of Ireneus importe the same But if they had in euery Hamlet placed Pastors yet dothe it not followe but that there mighte be some one in a Dioces or Prouince by whome these Pastors shoulde be directed As Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Crete Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. vlt. And heere you put me in remembrance of an other argument agaynst the Archbishop which I will frame after this sorte (a) The maior false If there should be any Archbishop in any place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the person or minister and his excellencie or in respect of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent ministers that euer were in the most famous places were no Archebishops but Bishops onely therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any Archebishop For if there were euer minister of a congregation worthy that was Iames. If there were euer any Citie that ought to haue this honor as that the minister of it shoulde haue a more honorable title than the ministers of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the Gospell issued out into all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the Churche there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bin since whiche also deserued great honour for that there the Disciples were first called Christians but neyther was that called the first and chiefest Churche neyther the ministers of it called the Arche or principall Bishops Io. Whitgifte It is a straunge matter that you should so grossely erre in making arguments séeing you haue taken vpon you so great skill in that Arte. But I will not be occupied in examining the forme of it Your maior is not true for suche offices maye be appoynted rather in the respecte of the time and of the persons that are to be gouerned Why these offices are appoynted than of the worthynesse of the minister or the dignitie of the plate and therefore your maior doth not conteyne a perfect and sufficient distribution Agayne the worthinesse of the person and the dignitie of the place be not at all the causes why suche offices shoulde be appoynted in the Churche but the suppression of sectes the peace of the Churche and the good gouernment of the same The worthinesse of the person may make him méete for suche an office and the place may be conuenient for suche officers to remayne in but neyther of them bothe can be a sufficient cause why suche offices should be appoynted I knowe the worthiest cities haue had the preheminence in suche matters but it was bicause they were the most méetest places for that purpose and the place dothe onely adde one péece of title to the office but it is not the cause of the office Lastly you haue not yet proued that there was no Archbishops in those places or that Iames had not that office Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Lin. 9. This is contrar to that whiche was immediatly affirmed before And Eusebius to declare that this order was firme and durable sheweth in the thirde booke 13. chapter that Sainct Iohn the Apostle whiche ouerliued the residue of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in euery Citie Io. Whitgifte This is no reason at all S. Iohn ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche therfore there was no one Bishop superiour vnto them to gouerne and directe them in matters of The office of an archbishop in S. Iohn discipline order a d doctrine if occasion serued I thinke that S. Iohn him selfe was directer and gouernour of them all and in effecte their Archebishop And that dothe manifestly appeare in that thirde booke and. 23. chapter of Eusebius For thus he sayth In those dayes Iohn the Apostle and Euangelist whome the Lorde loued lyued Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 2 ▪ as yet in Asia whiche did gouerne the Churches there after he was returned out of the Isle from banishement after the death of Domitian And a little after he saythe That he went beeing desired ad vicina Gentium loca vt partim constitueret Episcopos partim tota ecclesias componeret partim clerum ex his quos spiritus sanctus iudicasset sorte deligeret Vnto the places of the Gentiles adioyning partly that he mighte appoynte Bishops partly that he might establishe whole Churches partly that he mighte by lotte choose suche into the Cleargie as the holy Ghost shoulde assygne So that whether he had the name of Archbishop or no certayne it is that he had the gouernment and direction of the rest and that he appoynted Bishops and other Ministers Eusebius dothe
not saye that he ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche for his wordes be as I haue reported them But if he had so sayde it had not made any thing to your purpose but agaynst you For he appoynted them not all the Apostles nor the people and he gouerned and directed them as their Archbishop Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 1. 2. These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are (*) I say not only suspected but that they are not without iuste cause suspected suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bin conuinced and condemned and stande vpon the pillorie with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he whiche runneth maye reade Some of the Papistes them selues haue suspected them but those whiche maynteyne the truthe haue condemned them as full of poperie full of blasphemie and as those in whome was the very spirite of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctrine And doe you marke what you saye when you saye that these are but suspected Thus muche you say that it is suspected or in doubte whether the whole body of Poperie and Antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or soone after or no. For Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer ▪ and so you leaue it in doubte whether the Apostles appoynted and were the authors of poperie or no. I thinke if euer you had read the Epistles you would neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe Io. Whitgifte I say that they are not without iust cause suspected whiche you haue left out and therefore it appeareth that you haue layde aside sinceritie I haue alleadged them with as little credite vnto them as eyther master Caluine or any other dothe You your selfe haue sundrie times in this Replie vsed as I haue sayde as forged authors as these be with lesse defacing of them Turpe est doctori c. I can shew good proofe that I haue read their Epistles but I am not disposed eyther to boast of my own reading or to deface other mens I leaue that to you Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 66. Lin. 5. Sect. 1. 2. 3. But that notable and famous Councell of Nice muste be and is of all wyse and learned men nexte vnto the scriptures themselues reuerenced esteemed and imbraced That Councell celebrated Anno Domini 330. when as the Bishops of Rome were as yet learned Concil Nice and godly men doth not onely allow of the name but also of the office of Metropolitane Archbishop Archdeacon c. In the sixte Canon of that Councell it is thus written This Metropolitane Councell dothe determine him to be no Bishop vvhich is made vvithout the consent Metropolitani Episcopi of the Metropolitane In the. 13. Canon mention is made of a Patriarche and of an Archdeacon Archedeacon diuers times and his office there in diuers poyntes declared as it is also in the seuenth Canon of the same Councel In the. 25. Canon is named bothe Patriarche and Archebishop and Patriarke declared what authoritie they had in their Prouinces and in admitting of Bishops So is it likewise in the. 26. and. 27. Canons of the same Councell T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. You come after to the Councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the. 330. yere of the Lord when it may appeare by Eusebius his computation that it was holden Anno Domini 320. Io. Whitgifte I know that there is some varietie among the writers for the time of this Councell Uar tie concerning the time of y e Nicen Councell Musculus in his common places sayth that it was celebrated Anno Domini 313 the writers of the Magd. Historie centu 4. cap. 9. affirme as they say out of Eusebius that it was Anno Dom. 320. Master Foxe Tom. 1. fol. 12 thinketh that it was Anno Dom. 340. and so dothe Illyricus him selfe in his defense of the Magd. Historie thoughe he séeme to be of a contrarie iudgement in the Historie it selfe Pantaleon in his Cronographie placeth it Anno Do. 330. Some there be that say it was 324. c. So that to differ in the yere is no suche matter as deserueth any suche nippe But if all circumstances be well considered It will fall oute that Eusebius himselfe confirmeth that which I haue set downe touching the time of that Councell For Constantine began his raigne according to Eusebius his Cronicle Anno. 311. and this is noted also Cent. 4. fol. 62. But the Nicene Councell according to the sayde Centurie fol. 617. was holden Anno. 17. Constantini So that it must néedes be by their owne collection Anno. 328. or very neare But if we admitte Eusebius Cronicle for the beginning of Constantines raigne videlicet Anno. 311. it will fall out by Eusebius himselfe vpon the time which I haue appointed for Lib. 4. de vita Constantini he sayth that the Nicene Councell was holden Anno vicesimo imperij Const. So that it must néedes be Anno. 330. or in the beginning 331. at the vttermost but vnder it cannot be Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. And here you take so great a leape that it is enough to breake the Archbyshops necke to skippe at once 300. yeares without anye testimonye of anye eyther father or storie of faythe and credite which maketh once mention of an Archbyshop Io. Whitgifte This leape shall not hurt him one whit For if there were no other testimonie but Archbyshops Metropolitanes long before the Nicene Councel Concil Niceni Can. 6. that Councell it were of sufficient credite and habilitie both to saue his necke and his body from all kinde of harme For séeing it is thus written in the sixth Canon of that Councell Antiqua consuetudo seruetur per Aegyptū Libyam Pentapolim vt Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem quia vrbis Romae Episcopo parilis mos. est c. Let the auncient custome be kepte throughout Aegipt Libia and Pentapolis that the Byshop of Alexādria haue the gouernmēt of all these for the Byshop of the citie of Rome hath the same order Lykewise in Antioche and other Prouinces let euery Churche reteine hir priuileges But this is generally plaine that if any be made Byshop without the consent of his Metropolitane the great Synod hath decreed that he ought to be no Byshop And in the seuenth Canon Quia consuetudo obtinuit antiqua traditio vt Aeliae Can. 7. Episcopus honoretur habeat honoris consequentiam salua metropolis dignitate For as muche as custome auncient tradition hath bene such that the Byshop of Ierusalem be honoured let him haue honour accordingly not impairing the dignitie of the Metropolitane citie It is plaine that Archbyshops and their office were long before the Councell of Nice for else why should the Canon say Let the olde custome
action ended had no more authoritie than the rest Io. Whitgifte If you had read any auncient storie or father yea if you had but perused M. Caluines Institutions the. 8. Chapter or any writer intreating of this matter you would neuer haue vttered this vaine coniecture nor shewed so manifest a token of greate ignorance and no reading For it shall appeare by sufficient testimonie that neyther the name nor office of an Archbyshop was any thing at all straimge in this time And the authors of the Centuries Cent. 4. can tell you that Ambrose himselfe was Metropolitanus Ambrose a Metropolitane Cent. 4. cap. 10 plurium coniunctarum ecclesiarum administratione fungens A Metropolitane gouerning many Churches adioyning together Your coniecture that this Archbishop should be no other than he which for the time ruled the action wherin Byshops were ordeined and after the action ended had no more authoritie than the rest is a méere phansie of your owne contrarie to all authoritie and withoute any grounde or similitude of reason and yet you often repeate it and make it the foundation of this your building But let vs heare your coniectures Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 4. And I am moued so to thinke First bicause it is not like that one onely ordeyned Byshops being contrarie to the olde Canons of the best Councels but that there were other and that this whō Ambrose calleth Archbyshop did gather the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed before that it was not so strange at this time for the Byshop alone to ordeine Ministers And yet Ambrose in this place signifieth that the people had Ambrose somewhat to doe in this matter for he calleth them populum nugacem indoctum qui talem sibi asciuerunt sacerdotem a people that trifeleth and is vnlearned that hath gotten vnto them such a priest But I pray you where is now your distinction betwixt election ordination For Ambrose speaketh in this place of ordeyning and not of electing If you wyll néedes so distinguishe them that they maye not bée at any tyme nor in any place confounded then haue you answered youre selfe here and wyth one coniecture ouerthrowne an other But howesoeuer it is coniectures can not preuayle agaynst so manyfest a truthe being so silly coniectures For tell mée where you euer redde that he was called an Archbishop that did only gather the voyces or that this name was attributed to any during the action only and no longer This is verie newe Diuinitie vnhearde of in any good Authour that I haue readde or can heare of Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 5. Secondly bycause it was verie vnlyke that there was any absolutely aboue S. Ambrose in those partes where he complayneth of euill bishops or ministers made Io. Whitgifte Why to whom or for whom did Ambrose write this booke for his owne prouince or Diocesse only therein are you deceyued that you thinke Ambrose to haue written this booke for his owne Prouince onely when he writte it to profite the whole Churche as it may appeare in the fyrst Chapter of that Booke Neither doth he complaine of suche euill Bishoppes or ministers as were vnder him for then should he haue complayned of himselfe béeyng theyr Metropolitane but of suche he complayneth as were in other places and Prouinces as may be séene by these wordes of his Ita vt videas in Ecclesia passim quos non merita sed pecuniae ad Episcopatus De dig Sacer cap. 5. ordinem prouexerunt So that a man maye see euery where in the Churche suche as are promoted to the order of a Bishop not by desertes but by money and therefore this coniecture is soone answered Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 71. Sect. 6. Thirdly for that Ambrose in an other place which you after cite deuidyng all the Church into the cleargie and laytie dothe subdeuide the cleargie into Byshoppes Elders and Deacons and therefore it is not lyke that there was any which had any continuall function of archebyshoppe But as he was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or leader of the daunce which commeth fyrst and after commyng in agayne in the seconde or thyrde place is no more so called so that bishop was called Archebishop which for the time present did gather the voyces of the rest of the bishops which he by and by layde downe with the dissoluyng of the meetyng And that thys is not my coniecture only that there was no ordinarye or absolute Archebishop (*) Where or which centurie let the Centuries be seene (a) Vntruth whych alledge that place of Ambrose to proue that the office of an archebishop was not then come into the Churche which was foure hundred yeares after Christ and more also Io. Whitgifte This is a dauncing deuise in déede withoute any shadow of truthe as it maye appeare by that whiche already is alleadged and shall do more and more by that which followeth You are maruellous circumspect in your quotations least you shoulde be tripped and therefore you saye let the Centuries be seene but you tell not where Surely you doe verie vntruely reporte the Centuries for I haue redde them where they doe alleadge that place of Ambrose and there is not to be founde any suche matter but the cleane contrarie as is to be séene in that place Cent. 4 cap. 7. by you alleadged of the fourth Cent. the wordes be these Episcopi Metropolitani dicebantur à praecipuis seu primarijs ciuitatibus sicut Basilium Metropolitanū Capadocū Zozomenus vocat lib. 3. cap. 16. Et Archiepiscopi qualem Seleuciae fuisse Simeonem idem retulit lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarcha totius alicuius prouinciae diceba ur Episcopus vt Socrates indica Lib. 5. cap. 8. Bishoppes and Metropolianes were named of the chiefe and princip ll Cities as Zozomenus calleth Basile the Metropolitane of Cappadocia lib. 3. cap. 16. and Archebishoppes suche as he reporteth that Simeon was of Seleucia lib. 2. cap. 8. Patriarke of some whole prouince was called a Bishop as Socrates sheweth lib. 5. cap. 8. Wherefore it is too much boldnesse in you to auouche so manyfest vntruths Neyther is it any maruel though you quote not the places for forgerie séeketh corners Forgerie seeketh corn rs And although that whiche hath bin hytherto alleadged out of the Councells of Nice and Antioche with the iudgemente of so manie learned men interpretyng the same might serue to perswade any reasonable man that the office and name of Archebishoppe and Metropolitane is bothe of greate antiquitie and not for one action onely or a dauncyng office as you woulde haue it but fixed and permanent yet bycause I haue to doe wyth quarellers before I goe any further in confuting I will 〈◊〉 downe the iudgement of other aunciente and famous wryters also who allowe bothe of these names and offices And fyrste I will recite suche as haue the names expressed
with the offices then suche as speake of the very thyng it sel e withoute the names I will begin with Councels The Councell of Nice as you haue hearde hath the name of Metropolitane Councels of the name and o ice of Metropolitane an Archbishoppe c. Con. Ni en Can. 4. 7. and dothe limitte vnto ym certaine Prouinces to gouerne and take the care of It hathe bin declared that bothe M. Caluine Illyricus M. Foxe and others doe acknowledge the names and office of Patriarkes and Archbishoppes c. in the same Canon to be conteyned Neyther doe they nor any other learned wryter denie these names and offices to haue bene in the primitiue Churche and that fixed to certayne places and persons not mouable by actions nor practised by course Lykewyse you haue hearde howe that Councell by this clause Secundùm morem antiquum according to the auncient custome doth signifie that these names and offices haue bene in the Churche of long tyme or else it woulde not haue bin saide to be an olde custome Moreouer the nynthe Canon of the Councell of Antioche before alledged is Con. Antiocb can 9. most playne and euident both for the name and the thing together with the long continuance of them in the Churche The. 20. Canon of the same Councell of Antioche sayeth directly that no Bishoppes Can. 20. may call a seuerall Councell withoute the consente of theyr Metropolitanes In the sixth and. 37. Canons Concilij Arelatensis mention is made of the Metropolitane Con. Arelat cano 6. 37. of his authoritie in ordering of bishoppes and of the authoritie of his Synode The lyke bothe for the name and the matter also touchyng ordeynyng of Con. L odic can 12. Con Cartb 2. Can 12. Byshoppes is in the twelsth Canon of the Councell of Laodicea In the seconde Councell of Carthage in the twelfthe Canon it is euident that there was a Primate in euerye Prouince and that withoute his commaundement it was not lawfull for any to bée ordeyned Bishop In the. 13. and. 17. and diuers other Canons of the general Councell of Carchage Con. Carth. can 13. ▪ 17. c Con. Chalcedo as it is in the Gréeke copie the authoritie of the Primate is also expressed In the Councell of Chalcedon the name of Archebishoppe is sundrye tymes vsed Flauianus is there called Archebishop of Constantinople Dioscorus Archebishop of Alexandria and one Atticus bishoppe of Nicopolis dothe call the saide Dioscorus Archi piscopum nostrum our Archebishop Leo is called Archebishop of Rome c. Of the Councels that folowed there is no doubte and it were but superfluous for mee to stande in reciting of them and therfore thys shall suffise for the Councels to shew that bothe the name of Metropolitane or Archbishop and also the authoritie is not vnhearde of in the Churche of Christ or a flitting or slyding office Fathers and 〈◊〉 of the name and 〈◊〉 t Archebishop E phanius Nowe to the fathers and stories Epiphanius Lib. 2. tom 2. haeri 68. calleth one Peter Archebishoppe of Alexandria And that it maye fully appeare that it was bothe a continuall office and of greate authoritie and iurisdiction I will sette towne his woordes Et Meletius quidem in carcere detentus erat vnà cum praedictis Martyribus ac Petro Alexandriae Arc iepiscopo c. And Meletius truely was kepte in pryson togyther with the forenamed Martyrs and Peter the Archbishop of Alexandria and Meletius seemed to excell the other bishops of Aegypt for he had the seconde place after Peter in his Archbishoprike as being vnder him to helpe him and looking to Ecclesiasticall matters vnder him For this is the custome that the Byshoppe of Alexandria hathe the Ecclesiasticall gouernmente of all Aegypte Thebais and Mareota and Libya and Ammonica and Mareotis and Pentapolis In the same leafe he calleth this Peter Archbyshop thrée times This Peter lyued in the yeare of our Lorde thrée hundred and foure twentie yeres at the least before Peter Arch bishop of Alexandria abou twentie yeres before the Councell of Nice Idem the Councell of Nice The same Epiphanius in the same Booke and Tome baere 69. writeth thus Quotquot enim Ecclesiae in Alexandria catholicae Ecclesiae sunt sub vno Archiepiscopo sunt All the Churches that are Catholike Churches in Alexandria are vnder one Archebyshoppe And a little after he calleth Meletius Archebyshoppe of Aegypte but yet subiecte to Alexander the Archebyshoppe of Alexandria and all this was before the Councell ot Nice What can be spoken more aptely and more playnely to my purpose And if T. C. will cauill at the authoritie of the authour whyche is the poorest shifte that can bée especially when the authour is so generally allowed then for breuities sake I doe referre hym to the Epistle of Ianus Cornarius prefixed before this Booke and to that whiche after warde I haue alledged in his defense out of the Centuries Athanasius was called Archebyshoppe of Alexandria and that it may appeare that it was not a bare title but an office of Gouernment you shall finde these wordes in his second Apologie Iscbaras quidam vt nequaquam clericus ita moribus improbissimus conatus est sui pagi insulas decipere iactans sese clericum esse Id vbi resciuisset eius loci Presbyter mibi tum Ecclesias Atbanas Apol. 2. perlustranti renunciauit ego igitur c. A certaine man named Ischaras as hee was no Clearke so was hee most wicked in manners who wente aboute to deceyue the yles of his precincte boasting that hee was a Clarke when the Prieste of that place vnderstoode thereof hee tolde it vnto mee when I was visiting my Churches so I sente the same man togyther wyth Macharius the Prieste to fetche vnto mee Ischaras whome when they founde sicke in his chamber they commaunded hys father to warne hys sonne that hee attempted no suche thing as was reported of him And after in the same place followeth Ischaras Letters of submission to Athanasius In the same Apologie there are Letters of submission written by Arsennius Byshoppe of Hipsell and the Ministers and Deacons of the same Diecesse to Athanasius the beginning of the Letters is this Et nos quoque diligentes pacem vnanimitatem cum ecclesia catholica cui tu per Dei gratiam praefectus es volensque ecclesiastico Canoni pro veteri instituto subijci scribimus tibi Papa dilecte promittimusque in nomine Domini nos deinceps non communicaturos cum schismaticis c. And we also louing peace and concord with the Catholike Churche ouer whiche thou arte by the grace of God appoynted and willing accordyng to the olde custome to be subiecte to the Ecclesiasticall Canon write to thee louing father and in the name of the Lorde promise that wee hences orth will not communicate with the Schismatikes By this it is playne that Athanasius had great iurisdiction ouer many Byshops and other
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
And Hierome saith that y e cause why among y e Bishops one was chosen to gouerne y e rest was to remedie schismes Do you not perceiue how these two fathers ioyne in one truthe directly affirme y e self same matter It is true y t time corrupteth therfore much more occasion is offered to appoint gouernment according to y e times least the corruptions preuaile get the vpper hand for this cause Hierome saith that vpon these corruptions of time the Church was constreined to appoint this order Chap. 3. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 79. Sect. 3. And here I must put M. Doctor in remēbrance how vnfitly he hath dedicated his booke vnto y e church which hath so patched it peeced it of a number of shreddes of the Doctors y t a sentence of A friuolous di from the matter the scripture either truly or fal ly alleaged is as it were a Phenix in this booke If he would haue had y e church beleue him he oughte to haue setled their iudgement grounded their faith vpon the scriptures which are y e only foūdations whervpon y e church may build Now he doth not only not giue thē ground to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes which they cannot follow nor come after him For except it be those which are learned besides haue the meanes abilitie to haue the bookes which are here cited which are y e least smalest portion of the Church how can they know that these things be true which are alleaged as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay themselues vpon quiet their conscience in allowing y e which M. Doctor woulde so faine haue them like of Therfore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto y e earned and riche which haue furnyshed lybraries Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor hath brought more scriptures thā you haue answered as in the sequele it wil fal out although as I said before in such matters y e scripture hath not expresly Tract 2. determined any certeintie but hath left them to the Church to be appointed according to the circumstances of time place and person as I haue proued both out of the scriptures learned writers intend to do hereafter more particularly whē I come to entreat of your Seigniorie If al other men should do as you haue done that is borrow the sayings of the Doctors out of other mens collections not read y e authors thē selues a few bokes wil serue with very smal charges they mightbe prouided The patches peeces shreds of Doctors that be in my boke are taken out of the Doctors thēselues they be whole sentences faithfully alledged But the shreds of doctors that your boke is stuffed with you haue borrowed of other you haue falsifyed thē cut them off by the half you haue fathered vpon them that which is not to be founde in them and the words of late writers you haue set downe vnder the name of ancient fathers and the scriptures you haue falsely alleaged and vntruely translated I would not gladly haue burst out into this accusation at this time being from the matter but that you haue vrged me therevnto Chap. 3. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 79. Sect. 4. 5. 6. Hierome saith y e at the first a Bishop an elder which you call a priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed y t one should rule ouer y e rest Now I say against this order that y e Bishop should beare rule ouer all y e which our sauiour Christ saith vnto y e Phariseis from y e beginning it was not so therfore I require that y e first order may stand which was Contr Prax. that a Bishop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie against the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian saith vnto you That is true whatsoeuer is first and that is false whatsoeuer is latter Hierome you confesse y t this was first that y e Bishop was all one with y e elder first also by y e Tertullians meaning falsified word of God thē I conclude y t that is true You both do likewise confesse y t it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest then I conclude y e that is false for all that is false that is latter Furthermore Hierome in the same place of Titus saith after this sort As y e elders know themselues to be subiect by a custome of the Churche vnto him that is set ouer them so the Byshops must knowe that they are greater than the elders rather by custome than by any truth of the instatution of the Lord and so they ought to gouerne the Church in common Io. Whitgifte It followeth after in my answere to the Admonition that there was superioritie among the ministers of the word e ē in the Apostles time which I 〈◊〉 by the riptures other testimonies it is also 〈◊〉 that great factions schi mes did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church euē in the Apostles time therfore most like these that Icrome sp keth of to haue bin thē determined The which to be true his words ad 〈◊〉 touching y e church of Alexādria doth euidently declare for he saith y t this order was kept 〈◊〉 frō S. Marke But admit these were not true which you wil neuer be able to proue yet your argument is of no force the place of Tertullian is not vnderstanded for Tertullian in that boke after he hath repeated the rule of faith which is to beleeue in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ one God and in his sonne Iesus Ch ist c. he saith that this rule hath come from the beginning of the Gospell euen before all former heretikes muche more before 〈◊〉 that was but yesterdaye as well the posteritie of all heretikes as the verye noueltie of 〈◊〉 which was of late will proue VVhereby iudgement may hereof be indifferently gyuen against all heresies that that is true whatsoeuer is first that count rfeit whatsoeuer is last Wherby it is e ident that Tertullians rule is to be vnderstanded in matters of saluation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be 〈◊〉 s ode 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gin veland of faith not in matters of ceremonies kinds of gouernment which thing he himselfe in plaine words declareth in his booke de virginibus velandis where in lyke maner after he hath recited this rule of faith he addeth this lawe of aith remaining other things of discipline conuersation admit newnesse of correction the grace of God working and going forward euen to the end So that Tertullian thinketh that matters of ceremonies and discipline may be altered y e rule of faith remaining 〈◊〉 notwithstanding his former rule If you will not haue this to be the meaning of Tertulliā then will I reason thus The reason of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
same booke quoted in like manner but let it be of ignorance you take occasion by it to vtter your cynicall 〈◊〉 but to your owne shame The place alledged maketh much for my purpose for it proueth superioritie to haue 〈◊〉 among the Apostles and therefore that it may be among ministers which you denie ▪ and I affirme which also being graunted as it cannot be denyed whatsoeuer I affirme eyther of Archbyshops or Byshops will soone be proned But let vs heare the proofe of this new deuise of yours in soluting this and such like places that one ruled the action c. Chap. 3. the. 44. Diuision T. C. Page 84. Sect. 3. And that it may appeare what superioritie it is whiche is lawfull amongst the ministers and what it is that M. Caluine speaketh of what also the fathers and councels do meane when they giue more to the Byshop of any one Church than to the elder of the same Church and that no man be deceiued by the name of gouernoure or ruler ouer the rest to fansic any such authoritie and domination or Lordship as we see vsed in our Church it is to be vnderstanded that amongst the pastors elders and beacons of euery particular Church and in the meetings and companies of the ministers or elders of diuers Churches (*) This is a deuise neuer hard or before there was one chosen by the voyces aud suffrages of them all or the most pare which did propound the matters that were to be handied whether they were difficulties to be soluted or punishments and censures to be decreed vpon those which had faulted or whether there were elections to be made or what other matter soeuer occasion was gyuen to entreate of the which also gathered the voyces and reasons of those which had interest to speake in such cases which also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces whiche were gyuen which was also the mouth of the rest to admonish or to comfort or to rebuke sharply such as were to receule admonishment consolation or rebuke and which in a word did moderate that whole action which was done for the time they were assembled Which thing we do not denie may be but affirme that it is fitte and necessary to be to the auoyding of confusion Io. Whitgifte All this is spoken of your owne head and a deuise withoute proofe or reason as yet and contrary to the testimonies of all histories Councels and fathers affirmed by no learned writer as it may appeare by that whiche I haue hitherto alledged out of the canons attributed to the Apostles the Councel also of Nice Antioch Arelat Carthage Calcedon likewise out of Cyprian Eusebius Epiphanius Athanasius Gregory Nazian Ambrose Ierome Socrates Sozom. Theodoret Caluin Illiricus All whiche manifestly declare that the office of an Archbyshop and iurisdiction of a Byshop is permanent and affixed to certayne places not moueable nor during one action only And vndoubtedly I maruayle what vrgeth you to such absurd and vnlearned paradoxes vnlesse it be ignorance and lacke of reading But let vs heare your reasons Chap. 3. the. 45. Diuision T. C. Pag. 84. Sect. 3. For it were an absurd hearing that many should at once attempt to speake Neyther coulde it A needlesse proofe be done without great reproch that many men beginning to speake some should be bidden to holde their peace which would come to passe if there should be no order kept nor none to appoint when euery one should speake or not to put them to silence when they attempted confusedly to speake and out of order Moreouer when many ministers meete togyther and in so great diuersitie of gifts as the Lord hath giuen to his Church there be found that excell in memorie facilitie of tongue and expedition or quicknesse to dispatch matters more than the rest and therefore it is fitte that the brethren that haue that dexteritie should especially be preferred vnto this office that the action may be the better and more speedily made an end of Io. Whitgifte Surely and your deuise of saluing it is as absurd for there would be as great contention at such elections as there is confusion in the former equalitie and the rather bycause there is none to direct them therein For who shall call them togyther before this election be made where shall they meete who shall declare vnto them the cause of their meeting or what remedie if they cannot agrée of some one that hathe thys dexteritie but are drawen into diuers parts some thinking one most meete and some another other some the third c how if there be sects and schismes among them as there is at this time an hundreth inconueniences are there in this deuise of yours and to tell you the truth it may be vsed in places where there is no gouernment no lawes no forme of a common wealth no order But in a kingdome in a Church vnd r ciuill gouernment in a place of order c. it is the very high way to subuersion and confusion Chap. 3. the. 46. Diuision T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 1. And if any man will call this (*) And what scripture hau you for this ▪ a rule or presidentship and him that executeth this office president or moderator or a gouernour we will not striue so that it be with these cautions that he be not called simply gouernour or moderator but gouernour or moderator of that action and for that time and subiect to the orders that others be and to be censured by the company of the brethren as well as others if he be iudged any way faultie And that after that action ended and meeting dissolued he sit him downe in his old place and set himselfe in equall estate with the rest of the ministers Thirdly that this gouernment or presidentship or whatsoeuer like name you will gyue it be not so tyed vnto that minister but that at the next meeting it shall be lawfull to take another if another be thought meeter Io. Whitgifte These cautions are méete for such a deuise and apt for a tumultuous company and a congregation of proude and arrogant persons that cannot abide any superioritie or gouernment This I am well assured of and it is euident both by that which is already spoken and that which is to be said herea ter that there can neyther patterne nor Byshops gouernours simply not of one action only forme be found of it in any Church since the Apostles time recorded in any writer of credite but the cleane contrary for ecclesiasticall writers do both cal Byshops gouernours simply and manifestly also declare that their office of gouernment was not for one action only but during their life or at the least during their continuance in that seate or byshopricke ▪ and it is playne by that which I haue sayd before that the office of the Metropolitane which was to call Synods and to moderate them to ordeyne The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ixed
authorem vniuersorum Dominum Episcopum autem vt Sacerdotum Principem imagi em Dei ferentem Dei quidem per Principatum Christi verò per Sacerdotium Honor God as the author and Lorde of all thinges and a Bishop as the chiefe of Priestes bearing the Image of God of God bicause of his superioritie of Christ by reason of his Priesthoode And a little after Let laye men be subiecte to Deacons Deacons to Priests and Priestes to Bishops the Bishop to Christ. And agayne Let no man doe any thing vvhiche perteyneth to the Churche vvithout the consente of the Bishop And agayn He that attēpteth to do any thing vvithout the Bishop breaketh peace and confoundeth good order The like saying he hath in his Epistle ad Magnesianos These three Epistles doth Eusebius make mention of Lib. 3. cap. 35. 36. and Hiero. de viris illustribus T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the Admonition for wante of Logike for you vtter great skill your selfe in writing whiche keepe no order but confounde your Reader in that thing which euen the common Logike of the countrey which is reason might haue directed you in for what a confusion of times is this to beginne with Cyprian and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome and after to the Scripture and backe agayne to Ignatius that was before Cyprian which tymes are ill disposed of you and that in a matter wherin it stoode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes Io. Whitgifte Be patient a whyle the matter is not great the Authors be knowne and the The order ob serued in placing the authorities in y e answere antiquitie of them my mynde is of the matter and there is reason why I should thus place them Cyprian telleth the necessitie of suche superioritie and so dothe Chrysostome Hierome the cause and the originall Paule Timothie and Titus be examples hereof Ignatius and the rest are brought in as witnesses of the continuance of such offices and superioritie in the Churche euen from the Apostles Now first to proue the name of these offices not to be Antichristian then to shew the necessitie of the offices thirdly the cause and last of all to declare the vse of the same to haue bene in the Churche euen from S. Paules time to this houre is to kéepe a better order than you shall be able to disorder with all the Logike Rhetorike and hote Eloquence you haue Chap. 3. the. 61. Diuision T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian his place for when he sayeth the Bishop hath rule ouer all he meaneth no more all in the prouince than in all the world but meaneth that flocke and congregation whereof he is Bishop or minister And when be calleth him Prince of the priests although the title be to excessiue and big condemned by Cyprian and the councel of Carthage yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocesse as we take it or of the prouince than he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world but he meaneth those fellow ministers and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particular Church and congregation whereof he is a Bishop as the great churches haue for the most part both Elders which gouerne only and ministers also to ayde one an other and the principalitie that he which they called the Byshop had ouer the rest hath bene before at large declared Io. Whitgifte You very lightly shake of Ignatius wordes but they haue more pyth in them if it please you better to consider of them For he maketh degrées of ministers and the Bishop to be the chiefe he placeth Deacons vnder Priests and Priests vnder Bishops so that he giueth to the Bishop superioritie and gouernment ouer both Priests and Deacons which is the grounde of this cause and it being graunted as it muste néedes neyther can this authoritie of Ignatius be auoyded Aerius Heresie falleth and so doth your whole assertion What is ment by Prince of Priests Ignatius himselfe declareth saying Obtinens principatum potestatem supra omnes hauing chieftie and power ouer all How this name may be wel vsed I haue shewed before where I haue also declared the meaning of Cyprians woordes vttered in the hereticall Councell of Carthage and therefore not coumpted in the number of those Councels Chap. 3. the. 62. Diuision T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 1. 2. But M. Doctor doth not remember that whylest he thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the Bishop he ouerthroweth his Archbyshop quite and cleane For Ignatius will haue none aboue the Bishop but Christ and he will haue an Archbishop I see a man cannot well serue two masters but eyther he must displease the one and please the other or by pleasing of one offend the other For M. Doctor would fayne please and vphold both and yet his proo es are such that euery proppe that he setteth vnder one is an axe to strike at the other Io. Whitgifte I remember it very well and I know that an Archbishop is a Bishop and that therfore there may be superioritie among Bishops and yet nothing detracted from the woordes of Ignatius I know likewise that as well the one as the other is cōdemned by you and I am well assured that the proofe of the one is the proofe of the other and therfore M. Doctor may well serue two masters but they be such as be not onely not contrary one to the other but so néerely linked and ioyned togither that what soeuer pleaseth the one doth also please the other M. Doctors proppes and proofes are such as M. T. C. is compelled to vse railing flouting in steade of answering which is a shift but how honest and Christian let the world iudge Chap. 3. the. 63. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. 1. Iustinus Martyr one of the most auncient writers of the Greekes Iustine Martyr in his second Apologie ad Antoninum Pium alloweth this superioritie calleth him that bare rule ouer the other ministers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 2. But that M. Doctor deliteth alwayes where he might fetch at the fountayne to be raking in ditches he needed not to haue gone to Iustine Martyr for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when as S. Paule calleth 1. Tim. 5 ▪ the ministers and Elders by this title And if this place of Iustine make for an Archbishop then in steade of an Archbishop in euery prouince we shall haue one in euery congregation For Iustine declareth there the leyturgie or manner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see whether there be any resemblance in the world betweene him and an Archbishop For he placeth his office to be in
as I thinke speaketh But nowe to my Lorde of Sarisburie his argument whiche is this that from The Bishops argument the whiche somewhat muste be taken and vnto the whiche somewhat muste be added is no perfect patterne but Apostles Euangelistes Prophets are taken away from the fourth to the Ephesians and Deacons Elders as you your selfe say must be added Ergo it is no perfect patterne neyther do you neyther can you answere this argument But I will come to your accustomed shiftes Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. Afterwarde he sayth that neyther Bishop nor Elder are reckoned in that place The pastor is there reckoned vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and Bishop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifie one thing And as for those Elders whyche doe onely gouerne they are made mention of in other places and therefore the Bishop and Elder are there conteyned whych thing also M. Doctor graunteth Io. Whitgifte If the Bishop be conteyned vnder the Pastor why may not the Archbishop be so likewise but if the Elders which you say do only gouerne be not there conteyned and yet a necessarie function in the Church as you thinke howe can it then be a perfecte platforme or why may not Archbishops Archdeacons be also necessarie thoughe they be not in that place named but you say that those Elders be in other places mentioned That is no answere to this place but a reason rather to proue it no perfect patterne M. Doctor graunteth a Bishop to be conteyned vnder the name of a pastor But he doth not graunt that your Elder is so or euery Presbyter to whome the ministerie of the worde of God and sacraments is committed to be a Pastor Chap. 4. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Page 91. Sect. 3. After that he sayth there is no Catechista if there be a pastor there is one which bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther (*) What say you to the Doctor dothe it perteyne to any other in the church and publikely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion than vnto the pastor howsoeuer in some tymes and places they haue made a seuerall offyce of it Io. Whitgifte If a pastor and a Catechiste maye be in one why may not a Bishop and a gouernour Catechist and pastor distinguished also be one and so your Elders shut out of the doores But you may learne in auncient writers that the office of a Catechiste was necessarie in the Churche and distincte from the Pastor Origene was a Catechist in the Churche of Alexandria as Eusebius in his sixte booke dothe in sundrie places declare and yet he was not then a Pastor Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 1. And where he sayth that there is neyther Deacon nor Reader mentioned for the Deacon I haue answered that S. Paule speaketh there onely of those functions which are occupied both in teaching and gouerning the Churches and therefore there was no place there to speake of a Deacon and as for the Reader it is no suche office in the Churche whiche the minister maye not doe (*) Where haue you scri ture for this geare And if eyther he haue not leasure or hys strength and voyce wyll not serue hym fyrst to reade some long tyme and afterwarde to preache it is an easy matter to appoynt some of the Elders or Deacons or some other graue man in the Church to that purpose as it hath beene practised in the Churches in tymes past is in the Churches reformed in our dayes without making any newe order or offyce of the ministerie Io. Whitgifte This distinction helpeth not héere for if you saye the offices or names of Deacons be lefte out in this place bicause Sainct Paule speaketh not of suche offices as be occupied onely in gouernment first I answere that the same maye be sayde of Archebisho s and Archedeacons who haue those names onely in the respecte of gouernment Secondly I tell you that the office of a Deacon is also to preache as is Tract 14. hereafter proued And last of all that the office of a Deacon especially as you restrayne it is neyther office nor name of gouernment but of simple and absolute ministerie and seruice Your starting holes will not hyde you and this argument of the Bishop will not he answered You haue sayde nothing to proue this place to be a perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall functions neyther doe you saye any thing for omitting the names of Bishop Deacon Presbyter c. but we may saye the same for the names of Archebishop Archedeacon c. The Reader hath béene counted a necessarie office in the Churche and is of great antiquitie and I knowe that the Deacon or any other graue person vpon occasion maye be admitted to reade But I pray you where do you finde any such thing in the scripture T. C. taketh greater libertie to himselfe than he will allowe to whole churches especially of those whiche you call Elders which be in no degrée of the ministerie for it is great presumption for you to appoynt any suche office in the Churche not hauing your warrant in Gods worde séeing you finde suche faulte with whole Churches for allowing offices vsed in the best time of the Churche confirmed by the best Councels and approued by all auncient writers bicause their names be not expressed in the scripture and séeing also that you your selfe a little before sayde that onely the pastor ought publikely in the Churche to teache the youth and not a Catechist and I take publyke reading in the Churche to be as solemne a matter as Catechising the youthe But you haue libertie to coyne what order you lyste without eyther Scripture or anye other approued wryter we muste make you another Pythagoras In times past it was a peculiar office and he that had it was called Lector and therefore you can not saye as it hathe beene practised in times past excepte you wyll confesse that name and office of Lector and so also graunte some name and office profitable for the Churche to be omitted in the fourthe Chapter to the Ephesians Chap. 4. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 92. Sect. 1. 2. Where he sayth that by this reason we should haue no Churches pulpits scholes nor vniuersities it is first easily answered that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all thinges necessarie for the Church but only of all necessarie ecclesiasticall functions which do both teache and gouerne in the Churche and then I haue already shewed that there were both Churches and pulpits As for scholes and Uniuersities it is sufficient (*) I graunt but not out of the. 4. to the Ephe. commaundement of them in that it is commanded that both the Magistrates and pastours should be learned for he that commaundeth that they should be learned commaundeth those things those meanes wherby they
law then dealeth he with the consent not of the other Byshops only but of all the realme bycause that which is done by law is done by the consent of all that consented either to the confirming or making of that law Your glaunces by the way that there was then no Metropolitane that then the same were byshops which we now cal ministers bycause they be but barely affirmed it shal be sufficient as flatly to denie them and for proofe thereof to referre the Reader vnto that which hath bin spoken before Chap. 5. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 95. Sect. 5. The councell of Antioch ordeyned that if the voyces of the byshops were euen and that if Can. 17. No such thing in the. 17. canon halfe did condemne him and halfe cleare him that then the Metropolitane byshop should call of the next prouince some other byshops which should make an end of the controuersie whereby appeareth that the Metropolitane had so small authoritie and power ouer and aboue the rest that he had not so much as the casting voyce when both sides were euen And therefore it appeareth that besides the names of Metropolitane there was little or no resemblance betweene those that were then and those which be now Io. Whitgifte You haue written in the margent the. 17. canon of that councell in the which ther are no suche words nor any thing tending to that purpose it is the. 14. canon that I think you meane for in that canō it is thus determined that if a Byshop be iudged for Con. Antio ca. 14. certaine crimes and it happen that the other byshops of the same prouince varie in iudgement some thinking him to be innocent some guiltie for the resoluing of all doubte it pleased the holy Synode that the Metropolitane byshop shal call for other iudges out of the next prouince to end the cōtrouersie who togyther with the Byshops of the same prouince shall approue that which is iust and right Here is no mention of equalitie in voyces but only of disagréeing in iudgemēt among the Byshops of the same prouince Likewise in this canon it appeareth that a Metropolitane had authoritie ouer moe prouinces than one for he might cal the Byshops of another prouince to decide the matter if the Byshops of the same prouince could not agrée I sée not how this canon can any thing help you for now neyther the Metropolitane The authoritie of Archbyshops and byshops lesse than in times past nor all the Byshops in the prouince can depriue any Byshop without the consent of y e Prince so that in that poynt the authoritie of the Metropolitane is nothing encreased nor yet the authoritie of the Byshops For then as it appeareth in the ▪ 〈◊〉 canon of that councell if a Priest or a Deacon had bin condemned of his owne byshop o a byshop of a Synode it was not lawfull for them to complaine to the Emperoure if they Can. 12. had complayned it was determined in the same canon that they should neuer be pardoned nor haue any place of satisfaction nor hope of restitution But now it is farre otherwise The. 11. canon of the same councell is much to the same effect Wherefore the Can. 11. authoritie of the Metropolitane other Byshops is not encreased as you presēd but both the Metropolitane and other Byshops had asmuch authoritie then ouer other priests ministers and deacons as they haue now as appeareth by sundry canons of the same councell In the. 4. canon it is decréede that if a Byshop condemned by a Synode or a priest or Canon 4. a Deacon condemned by his owne Byshop shal take vpon him to exercise any mini terie he shall be without all hope of restitution and who soeuer doth communicate with hym shall be excommunicated In the. 5 canon it is thus determined If any priest or deacon Canon 5. contemning his proper Bishop hath separated himselfe from the Churche and gathering people apart hath erected an altar and hathe not obeyed the admonition of his Bishop neyther hath consented and agreed vnto him calling him backe diuers times let this man be condemned and deposed by all meanes and let him not obteyne any remedie afterward bycause he cannot receiue againe his dignitie But if he persist to trouble the Churche let him be corrected by the outward power as a seditious person By these canons it is euident that the Bishop of euery seuerall diocesse had authoritie by himselfe to excommunicate to depriue and to seclude from the ministerie any priest deacon or any other of the cleargie in more ample and large manner than he hath at this day The which thing also may be séene in the. 6. 12. canons of the same Councell so that you haue sought for help at the Councell whiche is one of the greatest enimies to thys your assertion and doth flatly condemne it Diuers canons of the which Councell if they were practised woulde soone remedie the sects and schismes whiche you haue stirred Chap. 5. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. vlt. Now to consider how the Byshops which are now differ from the Byshops which were in times past I must cal to thy remembrance gentle reader that which I haue spokē before which was that then there was as appeareth out of Cyprian and Ierome and others one Byshop in euery Many vntruthes heaped togither parish or congregation now one is ouer a thousand then euery Byshop had a seueral Church where he preached and ministred the sacraments now he hath none then he ruled that one Church as I shewed out of Ierome in cōmon with the elders of the same nowe he ruleth a thousand by himselfe shutting out the ministers to whome the rule and gouernment belongeth then he ordeyned not any minister of the Church except he were first chosen by the presbyterie and approued by the people of that place wherevnto he was ordeyned now he ordeyneth where there is no place voyde and of his priuate authoritie without eyther choyse or approbation of presbyterie or people Then he excommunicated not nor receyued the excommunicated but by sentences of the eldership and consent of the people as shall appeare afterward now he doth both And thus you see that contrary to the word of God he hath gotten into his owne hand and pulled to himselfe both the preheminēce of the other ministers and the liberties of the Church which God by his word had giuen Io. Whitgifte There is scarse one worde of all this true and surely I muche maruell that you dare be so bolde so manifestlie to speake against your owne conscience knowledge I haue before sufficiently proued all that is here by you auouched to be cleane contrary for the most part It shall be therefore sufficient as briefly now to answer as you do propound Demetrius was Byshop of all the dioces in Egypt and Alexandria Euse. li. 6. cap. 1 Cypr. li. 4. ep 8 Chrisostome
Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 1. Cyprian was Byshop of Carthage Numidia Mauritania Cyprian lib. 4. epist. 8. Timothie being Byshop had the gouernment almost of the whole countrie of Asia as Chrysostome declareth vpon the. 1. Tim. 5. and. 2. Tim. 4. Titus was Byshop of y e whole I le of Creta as the same Chrysost. testifyeth ad Tit. 1. I aue before by sundry Idem examples and testimonies by diuers councels and especially the councell of Nice 〈◊〉 the vanitie vntruth of this that is here affirmed that is that there was one Byshop in euery parish and congregation and the words of Cyprian and Ierome be cleane rary for they both make a difference betwene a Byshop to whome the gouernment of many pastors is committed and a pastor that hath but one seuerall flocke or charge For further vnderstanding whereof I referre y e Reader to that which is spoken before The byshops haue now as seuerall churches to preache and minister the sacraments in as they had then They haue no more authoritie in gouernment now than they had at that time nor so much and yet if they had more authoritie than they eyther haue now or had then I thinke it were more for the commoditie of the Church the state of the time and conditions of men considered As for ruling euery seuerall churche by those whiche you call Elders you haue shewed no such thing out of Ierome neyther can you For Ierome in that place you meane by presbyteri meaneth Priests as he dothe in all other places that I remember Neyther doth he there speake of particular parishes Touching the electing and ordeyning of ministers sufficient hath bin spoken before Tract 3. The Byshop doth nothing therein but that which he may iustly by the word of God and testimonie of the best and most worthy writers Of excommunication we shall speake hereafter you do glance at it now out of Tract 18. place And thus he that is an indifferēt Reader may vnderstand that the Byshops in these days in this Church of England haue no other authoritie than the word of God doth giue vnto them The Byshops of the primitiue Church haue pract sed y e libertie of the Church wel beareth and the state of the time and condition of men requireth Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Lin. 7. And as for the offices wherein there is any laboure or trauayle those they haue turned vnto the other ministers as for example in tunes past (*) A worthy councell it was not lawfull for him that was then an Hispal con ca. elder to preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop bycause the Byshop himselfe should do it and now those which they call elders may preach and minister the sacraments by the Byshops good licence although he be present Io. Whitgifte There is no iust cause of complaint for most of the Byshops in that behalfe For I thinke the time hath not bin wherein there were moe preaching Byshops than are at this day in this Church But do you thinke that a minister may not preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop Or do you so well allow of A corrupt councell alledged that Councell and canon quoted in your margent It was the second councell called Hispalense concilium it was not generall but prouinciall celebrated Anno. Dom. 659. the contents of the canon by you alledged are these That a Priest may not cōsecrate alters but only the Byshop that a Priest and Chorepiscopi may not consecrate virgines erect altars Hisp. Con. 2. Can. 7. blesse and anoynt them hallow churches make holy oyle and such like but only the Byshop Likewise that no priest may baptise say Masse ▪ teach the people or blesse them in the presence of the Byshop Surely this is a worthy Councel and a notable canon especially for you to alledge that haue so depraued other worthy writers for some imperfections founde in them But what doth it make for your purpose They might both preach and minister The councell alledged against himself the sacraments in the presence of the Byshop if he willed them and so is the canon This law was made for the encreasing of the Byshops pompe and dignitie for no man might presume to speake or do any thing in their presence without their leaue and licence so were they estéemed thē and such authoritie had they But if our Byshops should clayme the like you would say that it were an vntollerable arrogancie and pride I would to God all those that be deluded by you would consider your allegations and the grounds of your proofes Surely I woulde be loth to alledge any Councell of that time to proue any thing in controuersie Much more loth would I be to 〈◊〉 so corrupt a canon but lothest of all to alledge that which should be so flat against 〈◊〉 cause proue the cleane cōtrary to that which I affirme as this doth in your 〈◊〉 ▪ And here I haue one thing to tell you y t diuers of those things wherin you 〈◊〉 T. C. chargeth the office with the fault of the men make this difference betwixt our Byshops and those of the primitiue church if t ey were true yet wer they no saults in the office but in the men as for example thys which you here set downe Will you make a differēce in the offices of our Byshops and those of olde time bycause some of them do not preach This compareth the mē togither not the offices except you proue that it is forbidden or vnlawfull for one of our Byshops to preach There are other such like which I omitte Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 1. Now if you wil also consider how much the Lord ship pompe and statelinesse of the Byshops in our days differ from the simplicitie of them in times past ▪ I will giue you also a taste therof if first of all I shew the beginning or as it were the fountaine where vpon the pompe grew which Marke how this is proued was when in stead of hauing a Byshop in euery parishe and congregation they began to make a Byshop of a whole dioces and of a thousand congregations Io. Whitgifte If the pompe began as you say then began it in the Apostles time for then began they to make one Byshop ouer a whole diocesse as Timothie almost ouer all Asia and Titus ouer all Creta as I haue declared Which order hath bin from that day to this obserued throughout all Christendome as it may appeare by that which is already said Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 2. In an epistle of Zacharie vnto (*) It is an epistle o Pope Zacharie to Boniface not of Zacharie to Pope Boniface Pope Boniface it is thus written it hath bin oftētimes decreede Concil to 3 epist. Zacha Papae ad Bonifac. y t there should not be
expounding these wordes Et cum bymnum cecinissent c. thinketh it not vnlikely ipsum ita praeloquutū esse vt verba ipsius ab illis sint excepta vicissim reddita That Christ did in that order speake before his Disciples that they repeated his wordes after him Whereby it appeareth that he was so farre from thinking this order to bée on vnprofitable wasting of tyme that he doubteth not to ascribe it to our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles But if it be such an vnprofitable wasting of tyme to rehearse prayer after the Minister how happeneth it that you and all other your partners that be preachers vse to cause the people to pray after you in your Sermons Is it lawfull for you so to do in the Pulpite and is it not lawfull for the Minister to do the same in the Churche Belike nothing is well done that you do not your selues or are not the Authours of But here I cannot omit that which you so boldly affirme of the Minister whom The ministes not the onely mouth of the people you say God hath ordeyned to be the onely mouth of the people from them vnto the Lorde in publike meetings are you of that opinion that the people may ioyne with the minister in pronouncing publike prayers at no time Or that they should onely attende to that which is sayde by the Minister and in the ende giue their consent by this woorde Amen Hath God ordeyned this I pray you where finde you this ordinance Sure I am that the place by you alledged doth not proue it For although it be true that the Minister is the mouth of the people to God yet doth it not followe that hee is the onely mouth of the people vnto the Lorde ▪ And although we reade that the people vsed to giue their consent vnto the prayer pronounced of the Minister by this worde Amen yet if you will hereof conclude that they ought onely to say Amen and at no time ioyne as well in voyce as in heart with the Minister which you séeme to affirme in saying he is the onely mouth then besides the weaknesse of your conclusion the practise of the Church of God will sufficiently confute you Wée reade that when Peter and John were let go after their examination before the Priestes and Elders for healing the man that was lame from his mothers wombe they came to the rest of his Disciples and declared to them what had happened and when they hearde that Act. 4. they lift vp their voyces to God with one accorde and sayde Lorde thou art God c. So that the Minister here was not the onely mouth of the people but the whole companie that was assembled ioyned togither in this prayer lifted vp their voyces and spake with one accorde And surely it is not vnlike that they vsed herein that order which you before accounted an vnprofitable wasting of time for séeing that this prayer was framed according to the present occasion I am perswaded that the rest did rather repeate the wordes after him that conceyued the prayer than that they all miraculously ioyned vpon the sodeyne in one and the same for me of wordes Plinie in an Epistle to Plinius Epist. lib. 10. Traiane the Emperour concerning the Christians wryteth that their custome was stato die ante lucem conuenire carmenque Christo quasi Deo dicere secum inuicem c. to meete togither early at an appoynted day and to sing togither a song vnto Christ as vnto God Chrysostome goyng about to proue that in some respect there is no difference betwixt the Priest and people vseth this for an example that in publike prayer they somtime ioyne togither His wordes be these Quin precibus c. A man may also see the people Chrysost. hom 18. in 2. Cor. to offer many prayers togither for those that are possessed penetenciaries as they term them for common supplications are made both of the Priest and of them and they all say one prayer c. And again quid miraris si cum sacerdote populus loquitur vvhy dost thou maruell if the people speake togither vvith the priest c. You can not be ignorant I am sure that Basill likeneth the sounde of men women and children praying in the Church to the roring of the waues agaynste the Sea bankes This Basil. Hexam might you haue séene also euen in that place of Iustine Martyr whiche you quote for 4. Apol. 2. there describing the liturgie he sayth that after the exhortation or Sermon Omnes surgimus compre amur we do all rise and pray togither c. This you skipped ouer and tooke that which followed bycause it made more for your purpose for indéede Iustine doth describe both that is both the prayer of the whole Church togither and of the Bishop alone the people giuing their consent by this worde Amen I néede not to vse mo testimonies these may suffice to declare by the practise of the Church that the Minister is not the only mouth of the people in publike meetings which you haue only set downe without any proofe for what purpose you knowe best your selfe surely I cannot coniecture except it be that the people should wholy depende vpon the Ministers wordes and as it were hang vpon his lippes which where vnto it woulde in tyme grow wise men can consider But what néede I to stande so long vppon this poynt séeing you your selfe afterwarde The replyer contrarie to himselfe Pag. 163 in the middest affirme as muche ▪ For finding fault with the order of singing Psalmes syde by syde you haue these wordes From whence soeuer it came it cannot be good consydering that when it is graunted that all the people maye prayse God as it is in singing of Psalmes there this ought not to be restreyned vnto a fewe and where it is lawfull both with heart and voyce to sing the whole Psalme there it is not meete that they shoulde sing but the one halfe with their heart and voyce and the other with their heart onely For where they may both with heart and voyce sing there the heart is not ynough Than the which what can be more contrarie to this that the Minister ought to be the onely mouth of the people to the Lorde For here you affirme that all the people may prayse God and sing Psalmes not with heart onely but with voyce and so to be their owne mouth vnto the Lorde Howe you can reconcile this géere I sée not sure I am that truth is not contrarie to it selfe Chap. 2. the. 22. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 3. Although these blottes in the common prayer be such as may easily enough appeare vnto any which is not wedded to a preiudicate opinion and that there is no great difficultie in this matter (*) Conscientia I le testes yet I knowe that thys treatise of prayer will be subiect to many reprehensions
seyng Esau himselfe receyued the signe of the couenant notwithstanding he was before reiected Rom. 9. And that his posteritie were not so farre estraunged from the people of God as those that neuer were in the Churche it may appeare by that which is written in Deutronomie where the Israelites are willed to acknowledge them for their Deut. 23. vers 7. 8. The papistes ly e o the 〈◊〉 v der Ieroboani c. Brethren and to admitte their children in the thirde Generation into the congregation of the Lorde And yet are not the Papistes like vnto Ismael and Esau but rather the same with the Israelites vnder Ieroboam c. for as they professed the lawe of Moses had circumcision and were not in all poyntes straunge from the fayth of the Iewes but yet ioyned therevnto Idolatrie and the false worshipping of God euen so the Papistes pretende the lawe of God vse the Sacramentes professe Christianitie and are not in all poyntes straunge from Christian fayth but yet haue corrupted the same with idolatrous worshipping and diuerse other kindes of superstition and errours Therefore sayeth M. Beza very well in the wordes before recited Beza Epist. 10. Papismus est Ecclesiae Christianae aberratio Papisme is the erring of the Christian Churche And Ecclesia est velut immersa in Papatu quod de Turcis dici nullo modo potest qui nunquà m Cbristo nomen dederunt the Churche is as it were couered or drowned in Papisme whiche can by no meanes be sayde of Turkes whiche neuer gaue their names to Christe or professed Christianitie Wherefore if you had made a right comparison you should not haue compared them to Ismaell and Esau but to the reuolting Israelites as M. Martyr dothe saying thus expresly Quales olim Israelitae c. Such are the Martyr in 3. cap. 1. Reg. Papistes at this day if they be compared with the professours of the Gospell as were the Israelites in respect of the Iewes But full well you knewe that in so doing your errour would soone haue bene espied for though the Israelites were separated from the true Churche yet were not their children cut of from the couenaunt or debarred from the signe thereof The poyson which you say we nowe see and that lieth hid vnder these woordes is The poyson that is hidde in the Repliers doctrine the debarring of children from Baptisme for their parentes offences beyng baptised and rebaptisation Both which you do in more playne manner affirme than the Admonition doth and therefore for triacle to cure these venemous diseases I sende you to the learned workes of S. August Contra epist. Parmeniani de Baptis contra Donatistas of M. Bullinger Zuinglius Caluine and others which haue written against these poysoned poynts of the Anabaptistes and Donatistes ¶ Of the Seigniorie or gouernment by Seniors Tract 17. VVhether there vvere such as the Admonition calleth Seniors in euery Congregation Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 138. Sect. 1. As though M. Doctor were at vtter defiaunce with all good order and methode of writing Of Seniors that which was giuen him orderly by the Admonition he hath turned vpsidedowne For where the Admonition speaketh first of the Elders then of that which is annexed vnto them which is the discipline whereof excommunication is a part considering that the subiect is in nature before that which is annexed vnto it M. Doctor hath turned it cleane cōtrary and first speaketh of excommunication and then of the Elders I will therfore that the reader may the easelier vnderstand that which is sayd folow the order of the Admonition and first of all speake of the Elders or Seniors which ought to be in the Churche and in speaking of them I muste call to remembrance that diuision which I made mention on before that is of those which haue care and gouerne the whole congregation some there be which do bothe teach the worde and gouerne also some which do not teache but onely gouerne and be ayders in the gouernment vnto those which do teache This diuision is moste manifestly set forth in the Epistle vnto Timothe where he sayeth the Elders 1. Tim. 5. which rule well are worthy of double honour and especially those whiche labour in the worde and doctrine where he maketh by playne and expresse wordes two sortes of Elders the one whiche doth both gouerne and teache the other which gouerneth onely These therefore are the Seniors which are meant whose office is in helping the Pastor or Bishop in the gouernment of that particular Churche where they be placed Pastors and Elders Io. Whitgifte It is no rare matter in handling any thing first to entreate of that which is natura posterius and we sée it commonly so vsed by Logicians who firste treate of that parte which is called Iudicium then of the other which is called Inuentio notwithstanding Inuentio in nature is before Iudicium But I will not spende incke and paper in answering so vayne a cauillation The truth is that I in mine Answere follow the order of the Admonition For I proue that it was not the office of those Seniors to gouerne the Church c. bycause they had nothing to do with excōmunication being the chiefest discipline in the Church seing the execution therof was committed to the Minister of the worde onely So that I first take away authoritie frō their Seniors then answere the places which they abuse for the establishing of their authoritie My woordes be these What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane and Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline but all this is from the purpose Your diuision of Seniors though I know that it hath learned Patrones yet do I not vnderstande howe it agreeth with the woorde of God for if we consider the writinges of the Apostles it will euidently appeare that Presbyter is vsually taken for Episcopus or Minister or Pastor Presbyter vsually taken for a minister 1. Pet. 5. Act. 20. Tit. 1. as 1. Pet. 5. Presbyteros qui inter vos sunt bortor qui sum ipse Presbyter c. pascite c. The Elders which are among you I besech which am my selfe also an Elder c Feede the the flocke c. And in the Act. S. Paule calleth the same men Seniors and Bishops and by Seniors meaneth none other than Bishops and Pastors as it is euident in that place Likewise ad Titum 1. he sayeth that Titus was lefte at Creta vt constituat opidatim presbyteros That he should appoynt Elders in euery citie And declaring what qualities they ought to haue he addeth Oportet Episcopum immunem esse à crimine c. A Bishop must be vnreproueable c. Whereby it is manifest that he taketh them bothe for one The onely place that hath any shewe for the proofe of your distinction is that Two kindes of Presbyteri 1. Tim. 5. 1. Tim. 5. Presbyteri
if I do not who hath taught you to speake vntruly my woordes I haue expressed lette the Reader consider of them and here also take a note of your truth and honestie Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as this place hath bene vsed to proue a Pastor or Bi hop in euery churche therefore it cannot be vsed to proue these Elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alleaged for both he one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to themselues nor falsification of the place but onely a miste before M. Doctors eyes which will not let him see a playne and euident truth which is the worde Elder is generall and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne onely as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule Io. Whitgifte If it had these two significations as I haue proued that it hath not yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Actes I cannot reade in any writer and I haue shewed M. Caluines and M. Brentius iudgements to the contrary whiche in any wise mans opinion are able to counteruayle your credite and bare deniall And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the selfe same signification except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously and vseth aequiuocations Which were to derogate much from the simplicitie and plainenesse of the Scriptures Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleaging that text in some place to proue the election of Pastors and in some other place to proue the office of Seniors speake they know not what and dally with the Scriptures euen as you do in like manner when you take vpon you the defense of so manifest a contradiction Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 1. In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paule sayeth that God hath ordeyned in the Go rnours in the church Church first Apostles then Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the giftes of healing helpers gouernours diuersities of tongues here is not one worde of the office of Seniors neyther yet of their names for this worde gouernours teacheth vs that Christ hath ordeyned in his church some to beare rule gouerne but whether one in euery congregation or moe whether ministers of the worde or other whether Magistrates or Seniors it is not here expressed howsoeuer it is it maketh nothing for your purpose T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the place of the Corinths may be vnderstanded of ciuill 1. Co. 12. Magistrates of preaching ministers of gouernours of the (*) A manif st vntruthe for there is no such thing affir ed. whole Churche and not of euery particular Churche and finally any thing rather than that whereof it is in dee e vnderstanded I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone whiche is that he can not put a difference betweene the Churche and common wealth and so betweene the Churche offycers whiche he there speaketh of and the offycers of the common wealth those whiche are cclesiasticall and those whiche are ciuill Then that he meaneth not the minister whiche preacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernour of the whole Church onlesse he shoulde meane Pope if he will say he meaneth an Archbishop which gouerneth a whole Prouince besides that it is a bolde speeche without all warrant I haue shewed before that the worde of God alloweth of no suche office and therefore it remayneth that it muste be vnderstanded of this office of Elders Io. Whitgifte Héere haue you manyfestly fals yed my booke and greatly abused me For I haue not these wordes of gouernours of the whole Church and not of euery particular Churche neyther any thing sounding that way the Reader hath my wordes before his eyes let him consider whether you haue reported them truely or no. Surely if there were nothing else your ofte leasings might sufficiently conuince your doctrine of méere vanitie and forgerie But to returne to your Replie First I can not put any suche difference betwixte the Churche and a Christian common wealth the Church officers and christian Magistrates that they may not be comprehended vnder this worde vsed in this place by the Apostle For I vtterly renounce that distinction inuented by Papistes and maynteyned by you whiche is that Christian The Papists opinion of christian Magistrates Magistrates doe gouerne not in the respect they be Christians but in the respecte they be men and that they gouerne Christians not in that they be Christians but in that they be men Whiche is to giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ than to the great Turke I am fully persuaded therefore that there is no suche distinction betwixte the Churche of Christ and a Christian common wealthe as you and the Papistes dreame of And therefore there is no cause why th Apostl maye not in this place vnder this worde Gouernours comprehende as well ciuill Magistrates as ecclesiasticall The whiche notwithstanding I doe not determinately affirme as likewise I haue not done in myne Answere for I would be glad to learne and to heare some reason to the contrarie Master Gualter seemeth to auour this opinion for expounding this place he sayth He comprehendeth seuenthly Gualter in Cor. 12. in this order gouernours vnder whome are conteyned ciuill persons whiche in worldly matters dyd ayde all men and had the hearing of causes if any fell out amongst the Christians And a little after There is no neede of suche publikely nowe a dayes seeing there are christian Magistrats by whose authoritie all these thinges may be better prouided for Moreouer the Apostle may meane in that place Bishops or Pastors of whome he made no mention before For you will not haue the office of a Pastor of a Doctor confounded wherefore you forget your selfe in saying that in this worde teachers he meaneth the minister that teacheth that is the Pastor for of him I am sure you meane Last of all I haue no where sayde that he meaneth one gouernour of the whole Church neyther haue I written one worde tending to that ende but this I say agayne whether the Apostle meaneth one ruler in euery congregation or mo is not héere determined and I sée no cause as I haue sayde whye in this place of th Apostle thys word Gouernours may not eyther signifie the Christian Magistrates o Ecclesiasticall as Archbishops Bishops or whatsoeuer other by lawfull authoritie are appoynted in the Churche neyther is there any reason to be shewed why he shoulde rather meane your Seniors than any other Magistrates Sure I am that there be learned men whiche thinke that the Apostle in this worde dothe comprehende Ecclesiae
poynte wherein the question especially lyeth whiche is whether this function be perpetuall and ought to remayne alwayes in the Churche And it is to be obserued by the waye that whereas there are dyuers sorts of aduersaries to this discipline o the Church M. Doctor is amongst the worste For there be that saye that thys order maye be vsed or not vsed nowe at the lybertie of the Churches But M. Doctor sayth that thys order is not for these times but onely for those tymes when there were no Christian Magistrates and so dothe flatly pynche at those Churches whiche hauing Christian Magistrates yet notwithstanding reteyne this order still Io. Whitgifte I say so still and I am able to defende my saying agaynst al that you haue shewed to the contrarie And yet do I not pinche at any Church that vseth it if there be any such so that they haue the consent of the ciuill Magistrate who may if he will depart from his right abridge himself of the authoritie cōmitted vnto him by God But he néede not so do except he list and whether it be wel done or no I will not determine this I am well assured of that in a Monarchie in a kingdome such as this Realme of England is it can not be practised without vntollerable contention extreme confusion except you could deuise to make euery seueral parish a kingdome within it selfe and exempt it from all ecclestastical ciuill iurisdiction of Prince Prelate whomsoeuer which vndoubtedly may séeme to be your séeking as will appeare hereafter Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. vlt. Pag. 140. Sect. 1. And to the ende that the vanitie of this distinction which is that there ought to be Seniors or Auncients in the times of persecution not of peace vnder tyrants not vnder christian Magistrates may appeare the cause why these Seniors or auncients were appoynted in the Church is to be considered which must needes be graunted to be for that the Pastor not beeing able to ouersee al himself to haue his eyes in euery corner of the church places where y e Churches abode might be helped of the Auncients Wherin the wonderful loue of God towardes his churche doth manifestly appeare that for the greater assurance of the saluation of his did not content himselfe to appoynt one onely ourseer of euery churche but many ouer euery churche And therefore seeing that the Pastor is nowe in the tyme of peace and vnder a christian Magistrate not able to ouersee al himselfe nor his eyes can not be in euery place of the parish present to beholde the behauiour of the people it followeth that as well nowe as in the tyme of persecution as wel vnder a christian Prince as vnder a tyrant the office of an Auncient or Senior is required Onlesse you will say that God hath lesse care of his church in the time of peace and vnder a godly magistrate than he hath in the time of persecution and vnder a tyrante Io. Whitgifte I say there may be Seniors in the time of persecution when there is no christian Magistrate not that there ought of necessitie to be God hath prouided the ciuill Magistrate and other gonernours to punishe and to correct vice and other disorders in the Church who hath his officers and deputies in euery place for that purpose neyther may the Pastor or any other to whome that charge is not committed by the ciuill magistrate vsurpe that office vnto them selues Wherefore that cause by you alleaged is no cause at all why there should be any suche Seniors where there are christian Magistrates neyther is that kinde of gouernment any parte of the Pastors charge The Pastor if he be a méete man is able to o al that that is required of a Pastor else might it be sayd which you before denied that God appoynted offices functiōs and gaue not sufficient gifts to execute do them Neyther can it be sayd that God hath esse care of his Church when he placeth ciuill and Christian Magistrates in the stead of Seniors than when he placeth Seniors and leaueth it destitute of Christian Mastrates For one of the most ingular benefites that God bestoweth on his Churche in this worlde is that he giueth vnto it christian Kings Princes from whose office and authoritie whosoeuer doth detract and withdrawe we any thing iniurieth the ordinance of God and sheweth him selfe vnthankfull for so great a benefite Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. Sect. 1. In deede if so be the Auncientes in the time of persecution vnder a tyrant had medled with any office of a magistrate or had supplied the roome of a godly magistrate in handling of any of those things whych belonged vnto him then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate beeing i the churche the office of the Senior or at the least so muche as he exercised of the office of a magistrate should haue ceased But when as the auncient neyther dyd nor by any maner might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate no more vnder a tyrante than vnder a godly magistrate there is no reason why the magistrate entring into the churche the elder shoulde be therefore thrust out (*) Where finde you this in all the scriptures For the Elders office was to admonish seuerally those that did amisse to comforte those which he sawe weake and shaking and to haue neede of comforte to assist the Pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions sharper or mylder as the faultes required also to assiste in the suspentions from the supper of the Lorde vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that partie which had confessed him self to haue offended or else if he remayned stubborne to assist him in the excommunication These were those things which the Elder dyd which for so muche as they may do as well vnder a christian magistrate as vnder a tyrant as well in the time of peace as in the time of persecution it followeth that as touching the office of Elders there is no distinctiō in the times of peace and persecution of a christian Prince and of a tyrant Io. Whitgifte I would gladly know by what place of scripture you can i stifie this office that you The office ascri ed to Seniors 〈◊〉 the gistrate o his authoriti in ecclesiasticall matters héere appoynt vnto Seniors In so weightie a matter in my iudgement you shoulde haue done well to haue vsed some authoritie of scripture or other auncient wryter The Admonition sayth that the office of Seniors was to gouerne the Church with the rest of the ministers to consult to admo sh to correct to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Which if it be true I pray you what authoritie remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall and Churche matters In d ede if you make such a distinction betwixt the Church
the cōmon wealth the ci ill Magistrate the ecclesiasticall as you do throughout your whole booke it is no mar ell though you thinke No more authoriti 〈◊〉 ed to a ch istian Magistrate tha t the Turke the office of Seniors to be perpetuall For you giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall gouernment thā you would do to the Turke if you were vnder him And therfore according to your platforme the gouernment of the Church is all one vnder a christian Magistrate and vnder the great Turke But to l aue the Admonition what haue you spoken of the office of Seniors which is not eyther proper to the Pastor or cōmon to all Christians or such as may be much better brought to passe by the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate than by the ignorance simplicitie and rudenesse of the most of your Seniors But first let vs heare more of your 〈◊〉 before we come to vtter the absurditie of your cause Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. in the midst But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principall offices of charitie cannot be exercised is necessarie and alwayes to be kept in the Churche but the office of Auncients Elders are such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised therfore it followeth that this office is necessarie That the principal offices of charitie cannot be exercised without this order of Auncients it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amēdeth not after he be admonished once pri ately and then before one witnesse or two cānot further be proceeded against Math. 18. according to the commaundement of our sauiour Christ onlesse there be in the Church Auncients d Elders therfore this principal office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not pr̄ofited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is commaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not proffite by these two warnings it should be tolde the Church Now I would aske who be ment by the Church heere if he say by the Church are ment al y e people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayn to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of this matter I do not denie but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shal be noted hereafter bu the matter is not so farre come for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the Church or euer they can proceede so farre Wel if it be not the people that be ment by the Church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the Pastor but if he will say so speake so straungely he must warrant it with some other places of scripture where the Church is takē for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a companie And besides this strangenesse of speech it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraintie of the medicine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festred sore as would neyther be healed with priu te admonition neyther w t admonition before one or two witnesses For as y e fault groweth so our sauior Christ would haue the nūber of those before whō he shuld be checked rebuked likewise grow Therfore from a priuate admonition he riseth vnto the admonitian before two or three from thē to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a dangerouser wound should be layd an easier plaster therfore our sauiour doth not rise from two to one for that were not to rise but to fall nor to proceede but to go backwarde but to many Seeing then that the church here is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the churche here he meaneth the pastor with the Auncients or Elders Or else whom can he meane And as for this maner of speech wherin by the church is vnderstanded the chiefe gouernours and Elders of the church it is oftentimes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borrowed this maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayd that Moses wrought his miracles before y e 4. chap. people when mention is made before onely of the Elders of the people whome Moses had called togither And most manifestly in Iosue where it is sayd that he that killed a man at vnwates shall 0. chap. returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregation to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernours of the congregation for it did not appertayne to all to iudge of this case Likewise in the Cronicles and diuers other places nd therefore I conclude that for so 1. li. 13. cha muche as those be necessarie and perpetuall which are spoken of in those words tell the Churche and that vnder those words are comprehended the Elders or Auncients that the Elders auncients be necessarie and perpetuall officers in the churche Io. Whitgifte Héere are many words without matter a great thing pretended to no purpose for the principal offices of charitie both hath bin may be wel exercised without your Seniors Dic ecclesiae interpreted the place Mat. 18. doth in no respect proue the contrarie For it only teacheth an order howe to procéede charitably in priuate offences not in publike as I haue shewed before Moreouer to tel the Church is eyther publikly to reproue those that haue bin priuately in that maner admonished wil not repent or else to complayne vnto such as haue authoritie in the Churche according to that which I sayde before of this place in my Answere to y e Admonition And héerein you ioyne with me in that you take the Church there for the chief gouernours of the Church though we differ in y e persōs Church for the gouernors of the church For you will haue it onely ment of the Pastor Seniors and I thinke it signifieth more generally any which are lawfully appoynted to gouerne the church But whether it be one or more that hath this authoritie committed vnto him it is more to tell him than it is to tell twentie besides because he béeing in authoritie doth beare the office of a publike Magistrate who hath power publikely to correct that whiche was priuately cōmitted and therfore he that telleth one suche may wel be sayd to tell the Church bicause he telleth such a one as hath authoritie in the Church and is a publike person So that he riseth from priuate admonition to open complaint from priuate witnesses to a publike Magistrate and therfore this is to rise not to fal to procede not to goe backwarde But admit that mo than one is vnderstanded by the name of the Church whiche I also confesse yet doth it
Seniors Therefore this reason of yours is no reason at all but maketh directly against you if it be well considered Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142. Sect. 3. 4. Againe if S. Paule did charge the persecuted and therefore poore churches with the finding and prouiding for the Seniors in euery Church as it appeareth in y t Epistle to Timothie where 1. Epistle 5. he sayth that Elders which rule well are woorthy double honoure whereby he signifieth a plentifull reward and such as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholds as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the Church in attending vpon the sicke and vppon the strangers should be honoured that is haue that wherewith she might honestly and soberly liue if I say S. Paule would charge the churches then with mainteyning the Elders whiche being poore were The question is not of the abilirie to find Seni ors but of the necesti ie of ha ing them not sometimes able to liue without some releefe from the Churche bycause they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affayres to wait of the affaires of the Church howe much more ought there now to be Seniors when the churches be in peace and therefore not so poore when there may be chosen such for the most part throughout the real e as are able to liue without charging the Church any whit as the practise of these days doth manifestly declare And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the Gospel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is free and without charges as muche as is possible and soloth to lay any burthen vpon the churches especially those whiche were poore did notwithstanding enioyne the maintenance of the Elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted how much more shall we thinke that his mind was that the churches which liue in peace and are rich and may haue this office without charge ought to receiue this order of auncients Io. Whitgifte This is a poore and féeble reason the Churche founde Seniors in the time of persecution Ergo there ought rather to be Seniors vnder a Christian prince than in the time of persecution Or this the Church is now better able to finde Seniors Ergo it ought now rather to be gouerned by Seniors You may make the same reasons also for wydowes and diaconisses and as well induce the necessitie of them But we aske not what the Church was able to do then or what it is able to do now but whether the same gouernment ought to be now that was then and whether a Christian magistrate haue no more authoritie in the gouernmēt of y e Church now than the heathenish and persecuting magistrate had then Although if you consider the abilitie of some Parishes and the vnwillingnesse of other some you shall find that they be hardly able or willing to finde a fit Pastor muche lesse would they be able or willing to fynde a number of Seniors besydes their Pastor The place of S. Paule 1. Tim. 5. is vntruly alledged for your purpose for the Apostle meaneth of the Minister in euery congregation and not of any number of Seniors as I haue before declared Neither haue yon one place of Scripture to warrant your interpretation or application of that place God hath much better prouided for his church by placing in it ciuill and Christiā God hath prouided better for his church by giuyng chri stian magistrates then by Seniors magistrats whose authoritie is so ample large than by placing Seniors wherfore where Christian magistrates be the gouernment of Seniors is superfluous and the Church may not be burdened with vnnecessarie and vnprofitable charges neyther may the authoritie which God hath giuen to the Christian magistrate be writhen out of his hand by a rude companie of Seniors in seuerall parishes Chap. 2. the tenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 142. the laste lyne c. Moreouer those that belearned knowe that the gouernment of the Churche which was in the Apostles times being partly in respect of the people that had to do in the elections other things popular partly in respect of the Pastors and Auncients Aristocratical that is the rule of the best I say they know that these gouernmentes doe easyly decline into their contraries and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easily be changed into the gouernment of few of the richest or of greatest power and the popular estate might easily passe to a confused tumult Now this incōmoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant than vnder a godlie prince For they had no ciuile magistrate which might correct and reforme those declinings when they happened For the tyrants did not know of it and if they hav knowne of it they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke therfore now we haue a godlie ciuil magistrate which both will and oughte to remedie suche declinations and conuersions of good gouernment into euill it followeth that this estate and gouernment by Auncients is rather to be vsed vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant Io. Whitgifte Those that be learned know that the gouernment of the church is neither populare nor The gouernment of the church monar chicall Aristocratical ▪ as it is before declared where you haue affirmed the lyke but a Monarchie For in euery particular church where there is a christian Magistrate he is chiefe and principall ouer the rest and you your selfe confesse that the Pastor is the chiefe of the Seigniorie whiche ought not to be if the state were eyther Popular or Aristocraticall Of the vniuersall churche onely Christ is the head and chief and therfore the state of it is Monarchicall But of the state and kinde of gouernmente of Tract 8. the church in euery kingdome or prouince I haue particularly and at large spoken in the treatise of Archbishops I shal not néed to will the Reader once againe to marke how you bend your force against a Monarchie For your principle is that the gouernment of the common wealthe C. T. bendeth his force against a monarchie must be framed according to the gouernment of the churche And therfore it maye not be a kingdome but rather a Popular estate or Aristocraticall bicause the gouernment of the Churche as you say is so But be it as you woulde haue it what then Forsooth it maye easylyer decline from a popular estate to a confused tumulte and from an Aristocratical state to the gouernmente of a fewe when there is no Christian Magistrate than when there is a Christian magistrate therefore it is more meete for the gouernmente of the Churche to be populare or Aristocraticall vnder a Christian Magistrate than vnder a tyrant Fyrste I deny your argument as béeing voyde of all sense and reason Secondly I saye that no Christian Magistrate is bound to suffer in his dominion so manie seueral and distinct kindes of gouernment and to
standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Io. Whitgifte What M. Doctor was able to say more was vnknowne to you If he woulde alledge as vaine reasons as you do and spende paper in vttering his owne fansies without eyther scripture or other authorities as your vsuall manner is he would at the least haue séemed to say much as you do who indéede say nothing at all I say againe that there be in the Churche that is in the externall societie of the Tract 3 cap. 6 diuisi 2. 4. The Magistrate may better 〈◊〉 offenders thaÌ„ the Semors Gual 1. cor Church both Papists Atheists drunkards c. and your deniall of it I haue shewed before to be vaine I say surther that those and such like offenders may best be reformed by the ciuill Magistrate and by corporall punishment as for your Seniors they will not set a straw by them For as M. Gualter sayth They which cannot be brought into order by the authoritie of a lawfull magistrate and by lawes will much lesse suffer themselues to be punished by the commaundement of Seniors or of an Ecclesiasticall senate whome with all their solemnitie they will laugh to scorne Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 4. vlt. Afterwarde he asketh what Seniors may be had in most of the parishe in Englande fit for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page wher he also addeth Pastors asking where may be gotten such Pastors as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other than those which the word of God requireth Well then if this be a good reason why there should be no Elders in any Church bycause fit men are not to be gotten in all parishes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that for asmuch as we haue not fit and able Pastors for euery Churche that therfore we ought to haue no able Pastor in any Church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able Pastors in as many places as they may be gotten how can he denie that we should haue Elders in those Churches where fitte men maye be had Io. Whitgifte The question is necessarie and cannot be so shifted of But you are still like vnto Difference betweene the necessitie of Pastors and of Seniors your selfe The reason of hauing Pastors of hauing Seniors is nothing like For the office of a Pastor is perpetuall so is not the office of your Senior Pastors be necessarie in the Church of Christ as well for the administration of the sacraments as for the preaching of the word and other Ecelesiasticall functions so be not Seniors The office of a Pastor is not only described in the scriptures but commaunded also shew where the office of your Senior is so The office of a Pastor derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate but the office of your Seniors spoyleth him of the one halfe and in a manner of the whole as shall hereafter more plainly appeare Wherefore this may well be true that although suche Pastors as are to be wished cannot be prouided for euery place yet there must be suche as may be conueniently come by But the same is not true in Seniors being neyther necessary nor where a Chistian Magistrate is profitable but the contrary And these reasons will serue to denie that of Seniors which we grauÌ„t of Pastors séeing the office of a Pastor is commaunded as necessarie and perpetuall and not the office of a Senior Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 2. And I say further where we haue an expresse commaundement layd vpon vs to do a thing there all disputations must cease of hardnesse of impossibilitie of profyte or else of peace For first God hathe not commaunded any orders in his Churche whiche are impossible and if they seeme hard it must be remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so hard which diligence and trauaile to bring it to passe will not ouercome whiche thing if it be proued true in worldly affayres the truth thereof will much more appeare in the matters perteyning vnto God considering that if God with his blessing do surmountè all the difficulties in worldly matters which are otherwise hard to be compassed he will in his owne matters and matters perteyning to his glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hilies although they be neuer so high playne the ways be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh a way tracked and easy to go in and to walke towardes that kingdome wherevnto he calleth vs. Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course to no purpose For firste you shoulde haue proued The office of 〈◊〉 no 〈◊〉 com that the office of your Seniors is commaunded which I vtterly denie Then should you haue declared that the same commaundement is perpetuall for many thinges are commaunded in the new testament which be not perpetnall as the washing of féete Iohn 13. to abstayne à sanguine suffocat Act. 15. to elect and choose wydowes to 〈◊〉 13. 〈◊〉 15. 〈◊〉 5. minister in the Churche 1. Timo. 5. and suche lyke So that you haue craftily passed ouer two principall poyntes and those whiche oughte to be the groundes of your cause Fyrste therefore I denye that thys office of Saeniors is commaunded any where in the new Testamente then I say that if it were commaunded yet is it but a tempor ill commaundement Those two pointes not being by you proued the words you vtter are but in vaine Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 15. Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a Churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is with knowledge discretion and wisedome and there are such as S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profyt ble callyng and especially to a publike callyng God doth poure on his giftes of that person which is so called so plentyfully that he is as it were sodeynly made a newe man whych if he d ee in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimonie 1. Sam. 10. of the church with experience of their former godlie behauiour chosen to such offices of weight So that there is not nor can not be any want to obey Gods commaundement and to establish the order in the Church which God hath appointed but our owne eyther negligence and slouthfulnes or fearfulnesse or ambition or some other leauen which we nourishe within our selues Io. Whitgifte This lacketh proose for sometymes the churche of God is where there is neyther good Pastor nor méete gouernour as in the tyme of Elias And though God somtymes bestow his gifts vpon y â—
booke with other mēs collectiōs you wold neuer so oftē charge me with y e same I did not say as I told you before that bicause there was no Seniors in Ambrose time therfore there was none vnder a christiā Prince but this I say that y e Seniors which Ambrose speaketh of were extinguished before Ambrose time and were not in the time of christian Princes To what purpose do you accoūt y ◠time betwixt Philip Ambrose or Cōstantine and Ambrose you should rather proue that this kind of gouernment by Seniors was in Philips dominiō if he were christened which may be doubted or vnder Constantinus You say if I had euer read the ecclesiasticall stories I myght haue found easily the Eldership most florishing in Constantinus time and other times when as the peace of the Christians was greatest You haue read the Ecclesiasticall stories how chaunce that you shew it not It is your parte to proue you holde the affirmatiue Bring foorth one Ecclesiastical historie that affirmeth this kind of gouernment to haue bin vnder Constantinus You might at the least haue quoted the Author with the booke and chapter that so sayth though you had disdayned to set downe his wordes I denie not but it might be so in some time and in some place vnder a christian Prince and yet I know not how you will be able to proue it but that is not the question For our contention is whether this kind of gouernment ought of necessitie to be vnder a christian Prince or not and whether it be conuenient so to be though it be not necessarie and not whether it hathe bin which notwithstanding can not be proued or may be Chap. 2. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 3. And that the Presbyterie or Eldership endured in the Church after Ambrose time and in the time of peace and as it is very like in Ambrose time although not where he was it may be shewed 4. Tom. 2. lib. in Isaiā playnly by Hierome which followed Ambrose immediatly who in his third chapter vpon I say It is in the. 5. tom not in the. 4 sayth that they had also the Presbyterie or Eldership in the churche Io. Whitgifte Ierome speaketh not one word of your Presbyterie his words be these Et nos habemus Hier. 2. lib. in Isaiam in ecclesia senatū nostrū coetū presbyterorū And we haue in the Church our Senate a company of Elders Which he meaneth of Priests and of Colledges of Cathedrall Churches that were then in euery citie and not of a Seigniorie in euery congregation wherby What Presbyterie Ierō meaneth euery seuerall parish was gouerned That this was Ieromes meaning it appeareth in the same place vpō these words Hariolum senem where he interpreteth the word Presbyter sayth they be suche as S. Paule describeth in his Epistle to Tim. and those be ministers of the word and sacraments So may we say that we haue senatum coetum presbyterorum in this Church of England whether you will meane it of Synodes and conuocations or of Cathedrall Collegiate Churches which consist ex coetu presbyterorū of a companie of ministers And therfore Duarenus a learned writer speaking Duarenus of this Seigniorie sayth thus And it is to be noted that there was a certayne Colledge of those Elders he meaneth Priests as it is euidēt in that which goeth before in euery citie ouer whom the Bishop had rule suche as is at this day the Colledge of Canons which seeme to haue succeeded into their place And this company of Priests dothe Ierome call the senate of the Church This Senate cōsisteth of Priests yours of mē in no degrée of the ministerie This Differēce betwixte Ieroms presbyterie ▪ and that the Replyer would establishe Senate was only in euery citie the Bishop was the chiefe yours must be in euery parish directed by y e Pastor We reade not of any such iurisdiction that this Senate had ouer any but ouer the Cleargie yours must haue authoritie both ouer cleargie and laytie wherfore this place of Ierome doth not helpe you one whit But be it that this Seigniorie was y e same that you meane of and that it was in Ieromes church yet for as much as it was not in Ambrose his church also it manifestly appeareth to be a thing indifferent and not of necessitie to be vrged Chap. 2. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. vlt. The same might be shewed by diuers other testimonies which I omit bicause that it may appeare by the former treatise touching the election of the minister that this order of Eldership continued in the Church diuers hundred yeres after Ambrose tyme euen as long almost as there was any sounde parte of the churche from the head to the heele Io. Whitgifte But séeing that you haue hitherto brought foorth so few testimonies scil one only and that to smal purpose it had bin wel if you had not passed the rest ouer so lightly For it is soone sayde that diuers other testimonies might haue bin shewed but it had bin much for your credite if you had recited but one 〈◊〉 that we might at the least haue had two witnesses but in déede you are not able In your treatise of the election of ministers no such thing appeareth except you will haue whole parishes of the Seigniorie and the same to be without a Pastor who should be the guide For parishes do not vsually choose their Pastor vntill they be destitute Neyther is there any mention made by you or proofe in that treatise that there was a Seigniorie in euery parishe to whome the election was committed and therefore you doe but speake this pro forma tantùm Chap. 2. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. vlt. Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance it remayneth to shew how that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously himself abused or else desireth to abuse ether For if where as he tooke halfe Ambrose sentence he had taken the other halfe with him and had not sodenly stopped his breath that he shuld speake no more in stead of a false witnesse agaynst the Eldership he should haue brought foorth as cleare and as lat a witnesse for the proofe of them as a man could desire out of an auncient writer The whole sentence is thys speaking of this office of Elders although not vpon so good occasion Ambrose vpon 1. Ti. cap. 5. thus he sayth Whervpon the Synagogue and after the Churche had Elders without whose councell nothing was done in the Churche which Elders I know not by what negligence they are worne out onlesse it be through the slouthfulnesse of the Doctors or rather through their pride whylest they onely would seeme to be somewhat Io. Whitgifte But if you be not able to alleage one place to proue that your seigniorie was in the time of christian Princes except onely that place of Hieronie M. Doctors ignorance is not so great
first priuately admonished this maketh nothing for your purpose it taketh away authoritie of iudging and condemning from priuate men and not from publike magistrates In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth verse 28. these be the words of the Apostle And God hath ordeyned some in the Churche as first Apostles secondly Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the gifte of healing helpers gouernours diuersitie of tounges How can you gather of these wordes that all this commeth to passe that is hatred fauour corruption by money and affection in iudgement bycause the regiment lefte of Christe to his Churche is committed to one mans hands In these wordes the Apostle declareth that Christ hath lefte in his Churche gouernours and thereof you may well conclude that in the Churche there muste be some whiche shoulde haue authoritie ouer the reste The Apostle dothe not here An vnperfect reason say that in euery particular congregation Christ hath left many gouernours no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flocke but in his Churche he hath ordeyned gouernours The gouernement of the whole vniuersall Churche is not by Christe committed to one Bishop or one Prince nor the gouernment of the whole worlde to one Emperour for no one man can discharge such a cure and therefore he hath appoynted in his Churche diuers Bishops diuers Princes many gouernours But one Prince may suffise to gouerne one kingdome and one Archbishop one Prouince as chiefe and principall ouer the reste one Byshop one Diocesse one Pastor one parishe neyther doth the Apostle speake any thing to the contrarie In the. 12. to the Romaines it is thus written he that ruleth vvith diligence What maketh this for your purpose or how cā you wring it to your assertion In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothie The Elders that rule vvell are vvorthy of double honour c. Paule sheweth in these wordes that suche are worthy theyr stipende reward which rule well in the Church and do their duties diligently But what is that to your assertion The places alledged out of the fiftenth of the Actes be of the like sorte Wheresoeuer mention is made in the Scriptures of gouernours Lacke of discretion in al ging of scriptures or Elders that you alledge to improue the gouernment of one man wherein you shewe a great wante of iudgement And yet there is no one person in this Realme the Prince only excepted which hath such absolute iurisdiction as you would make your disciples beleue But your meaning is that Christe lefte the whole gouernment of his Churche to the Pastor and to some foure of fiue of the Parish besides which you are not able to proue your places of scripture alleged signifie no such matter In those places y t be gouerned by many do you not see what cōtention there is what enimitie what factiōs what partes taking what cōfusion what little good order obserued what carelesnesse dissolutnesse in al māner of behauiour I could make this manifest by examples if I were disposed In the. 18. of Exodus which place you quote to proue that Seniors ought to be zelous and godly Iethro giueth Moses counsell not to weary himselfe in hearing all matters that be brought vnto him but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others And therefore verse 21. he sayeth Prouide thou among all the people men of courage fearing God men dealyng truly hauing couetousnesse and appoynt suche ouer them to be rulers ouer thousands rulers ouer hundredes rulers ouer fifties and rulers ouer tennes c. This maketh nothing for Seniors Moses here was chiefe these were but his vnder officers placed by himselfe This place serueth well for the gouernment of one Prince ouer one whole realme and giueth him good counsell what vnder officers he ought to choose To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written whiche you cite out of the first of Deuteron verse 13. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. The rest comprehended in these sections is answered before beyng matter whiche perteyned vnto the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte Uery litle of it perteyneth to the Archbishop The Authors of y ◠Admonitiō bring in all these places of Scripture to proue the gouernment of your Seniors but how aptly it app areth in that you cannot salue their follies in so vnapt allegatiōs There be other thinges that require answere but you haue shifted of all in saying that they perteyne to the Archbishop be answered before when as neyther of both is true for they perteyne to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered But I leaue it to the Reader here to consider why you haue not set downe my booke in your Replie ¶ The inconuenience of the Seigniorie in the tyme of Christian Princes especially in the state of this Church Chap. 3. Nowe that you haue spoken all that you can for your Seniors giue me leaue a litle to declare the absurdities and inconueniences that must of necessitie follow that kinde of gouernment 1. Difference disagrement in orders and religion First euery seuerall parish must be as it were a seuerall Church gouerned by seuerall orders ceremonies yea and peraduenture professe seueral points of doctrine for there muste be equalitie among ministers and one of them muste not haue to do with anothers parishe The whole gouernment of the Parish must remayne in the minister and certayne Seniors who shall haue authoritie to correct vice abolishe ceremonies appoynt orders abregate customes make Ecclesiasticall lawes as they shall thinke good for that congregation So that whatsoeuer the Pastor and his Seniors deuise and agrée vpon be it good or euill common or singular it must be obeyed vnder the payne of Excommunication Secōdly that Seigniorie being choosen by the Pastor the parish if the Prince or 2. Confusion of 〈◊〉 any other noble man be of that congregation choosen to that office by the most parte he must not refuse it but attende vpō it be at M. Pastors calling who is the chiefe of the Seigniorie in that respect aboue Earle Duke Ring or whosoeuer moreouer he must be contented to be lincked ioyned in commission with the basest sort of the people if it please the parish to appoynt to him suche Colleags as it is like they will Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and gouernment by such simple Seniors ouerruled as it is most like they shall they must therewith be contented Thirdly it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to beare for wheras now 3. Burden and charge of parishes they repine at the finding of their Pastors then they muste be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons and sixe or seuen Seniors with widowes also Fourthly it bringeth in a new Popedome tyrānie into the Church for it giueth 4. Tyranny to the Pastor his fellow Seniors authoritie to exercise discipline by
by that which I haue here already spoken Yet would I not haue any man to thinke that I condemne any churches where this gouernment is lawfully without daunger receyued onely I haue regarde to whole kingdomes especially this Realme where it cannot but be daungerous ¶ That there is no one certaine kinde of Gouernment in the Church which must of necessitie be perpetually obserued Chap. 4. I know it wil be obiected that y e ordinaūce of God must take place whatsoeuer incōueniēces follow that this kinde of gouernmēt is the ordinance of God therfore may not for any respect be omitted But I haue denied sufficiētly declared before y t this kind of Gouernment is no where in scripture cōmaūded that it neither is nor can be perpetuall And although I haue sufficiently proued this in one or two places before the contrary is yet vnproued as I had occasion to speake of it yet I trust it shall not be grieuous to the Reader if in a worde or two I here knit vp the matter First I affirme that there is not one sentence in the whole scripture wherevpō y e 1. No commaundement hereof in scripture perpetuitie or the necessitie of this kinde of gouernment may be grounded For the place in 1. Tim. 5. doth neither cōmaunde any such kinde of gouernment nor prescribe any forme or manner of it besides the place is doubtfull diuersly expounded and therfore no such perpetual rule can be gathered of it Moreouer y e Apostle only in that place sheweth that such as rule wel are worthie of double honour c. so that I maruaile how any man can of those wordes conclude either such a Seigniorie as now is Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision imagined or any perpetuitie of it But of this place I haue spoken before Secondly it is wel know that the manner forme of gouernment vsed in the Apostles 2. The gouernment in the Apostles time cannot nowe be exercised time expressed in the scriptures neither is now nor cā or ought to be obserued either touching the persons or the functions for we haue neither Apostles Prophets workers of miracles giftes of healing diuersitie of tounges widowes or such like all which perteyned to the gouernment of the Church in the Apostles time and were partes of it as appeareth ▪ 1. Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1. Tim. 5. And seing that the Church is not boūd to this forme so plainly expressed in these places of scripture I see not how you can binde it to the selfe same forme of gouernment vsed in the Apostles time Thirdly this worde gubernationes mentioned 1. Cor. 12. whervpon you would groūd 3. The worde gubernationes implieth not the Seigniorie but by coniecture your Seigniorie may as some learned men think signifie any kind of gouernment cuē the ciuil Magistrate Certayne it is that only by méere coniectures it is drawne to signifie this new deuised Seigniorie therfore cannot inferre any necessary cōclusiō Furthermore it is by the spirite of God placed among those functions y t be temporall and by the iudgement of all learned men ceased for thus the Apostle sayeth Deinde potestates deinde dona sanationum opitulationes gubernationes genera linguarum now it were 1. Cor. 12. a very straunge matter that all the rest should be temporall and onely gubernationes perpetuall sure I am that the argument which so concludeth may easily be denied and by no probabilitie proued Fourthly we sée manifestly that in sundrie poynts the gouernment of y e Church 4. The Apostolicall gouernment hath of necessitie bene altered vsed in the Apostles time is and hath bene of necessitie altered that it neither may nor can be reuoked whereby it is playne that any one certayne forme or kinde of externall gouernment perpetually to be obserued is no where in the Scripture prescribed to the Churche but the charge thereof is left to the Christian Magistrate so that nothing be done contrarie to the woorde of God This is theopinion of the best writers neyther do I know any learned man of a 5. The generall opinion of the best writers Musculus loc Com. tit de Magist. contrarie iudgement M. Musculus speaking of those Seniors sayth that they were vsed in those Churches only that were destitute of Christian Magistrates which haue the chieftie and power c. not only in prophane but in diuine matters And after answering an obiection of 1. Cor. 6. he sayeth that we must needes distinguish betwene the state of the Church in those dayes and that whichis now I haue before declared M. Gualters iudgement of this matter in his Cōmentaries vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. And vpō the. 11. chapt Gualter hom 56. in 1. Cor. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth thus VVherefore as concerning the doctrine of fayth and saluation we acknowledge no traditions of the Apostles but those whiche are conteyned in the creede c. But as concerning the externall forme of the Churche wee denie not that they haue taught euery where many thinges of the order of Ecclesiastical assemblies of the administration of Sacraments and of the whole gouernment of the Churche VVhereof bicause there cannot be one forme in euery place obserued they did in suche sorte appoynt them as they sawe to be requisite for the condition of any Citie or Countrie And it is certaine that the Churches in all ages haue vsed their libertie in these thinges therfore they are to iniurious which at this day eyther vnder the name of the traditiōs of the Apostles or for any other pretence go about to binde all Churches to one and the selfe same forme And vpon the. 12. chapter where he againe speaketh of the Seigniorie he Idem sayeth There be diuers which will needes institute Elders or an Ecclesiasticall enate according to the exāple of the old primitiue Churche which also should haue authoritie ouer the Magistrates thēselues if at any time they did not their dutie But it behoueth them first to shew that those their Seniors haue this power wherof Paule doth presētly speake which thing seing it doth by no meanes appeare and yet notwithstanding they deliuer vnto Satan whom they wil they do like as if some would go about to clense the leprous raise the dead worke other miracles bicause these things were vsually done in the primitiue Churche And y ◠which he speaketh touching this matter also vpō the. 14. chapt of y e same Epistle is not vnworthie y e noting whereof I haue before made mention That their ambition Idem is there reproued which go about to bring all churches to the forme of their discipline gouernmēt crie out that there is no discipline there where al things are not agreable to their traditiōs orders But these mē receiue a iust reward of their arrogācie when as they that come frō thē to other coūtries do go
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
election consequently y e throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together with the church the Eldership hath the principal swaye For y e decision of controuersies when they rise it may apeare in the. 15. of the Actes y t the Presbyterie or Eldership of the church hath to determine of that also Now it remaineth here that wheras M. Doctor saith that the excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoring to the church again doth perteme only to the minister y e I shew that the presbyterie or eldership the whole church also hath interest in the excommunication consequently in the absolution or restoring vnto the church But here by the waye it is to be (*) 〈◊〉 not worthy the noting noted that in saying that it belongeth to y e minister he confesseth y e disorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and giuen to the Byshop and his officers Io. Whitgifte Of Election of ministers so of their reiection throwing out sufficient hath bin spoken Tract 3. before your manner of electing by better reasons confuted than it was by you proued for the decisions of controuersies when they arise it may appeare in the. 15. of y e Acts that the best way is to call Synodes Councels of learned mē as it was there practised not to cōmit such matters to the pastor of euery seuerall parish certaine of his neighbours whom you call the Seigniorie for if it had bin so what néeded Paule and Barnabas haue takē so long a iourney frō Antioche to Ierusalē for y e deciding of their cōtrouersies séeing y t they the Seigniorie if there had bin any such might haue ended the same at home in Antioche This place vndoubtedly ouerthroweth your Seigniorie except now you wil take it as it is in ecclesiastical writers oftētimes takē for a Synode or cōuocatiō of bishops priests so y e not your Seigniorie which is in euery parishe but general or prouincial Coūcels Synodes must haue y e deciding of cōtrouersies else as I sayd before why should Paule and Barnabas come from Antioche to Ierusalem to haue their controuersies determined Your note by the way is not worth a rushe for when I say y t the execution of discipline is onely committed to the ministers of the word you cannot therevpon cōclude that euery minister hath authoritie to exercise it in the church It is one thing to saye only ministers haue authoritie to excōmunicate to saye that all ministers haue authoritie so to do only ministers may be Bishops yet all ministers be not Bishops only Lawyers may be Iudges yet all Lawyers be not Iudges only citezens may be Aldermen Sherifes Maiors yet all be not so wherfore by the waye here you ouersot your selfe And yet I thinke that all ministers haue power to excommunicate if the Church thinke it good to committe that authoritie vnto them Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 146. Sect. 4. Now that this charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minister but chiefly to the Eldership and Pastor it appeareth by that which the authors of the Admonition alleage out of S. Mathew which place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstanded of the elders of the 18. Chap. churche Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you before how that place of Mathew is to be vnderstanded what it is to tell the Church namely either to reproue the partie openly before the congregation or else to complaine to such as haue authoritie in the church to whome y e executing of discipline is committed which is by the order of the church of Englande the Bishop And therefore the Bishop alone both by the lawes of God and of this churche of England which hath giuen vnto him by consent in Parliament that authoritie may exercise this discipline Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition Then it was sayd tel l Math. 18. 17 the church now it is spoken complayne to my Lordes grace Primate and Metropolitane of all Englande or to his inferiour my Lorde Byshop of the Diocesse if not to hym shewe the Chauncellour or Officiall or Commissarie or Doctour Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 135. Sect. 1. As it was saide then so ought you and may you say now in priuate offences yf priuate admonitions wyll not serue then muste you declare them to the church either by reprehending of them publikely before the whole congregation if you be called therevnto for that is Churche signifieth those that haue authoritie in the churche one kynde of telling the churche or else by complayning to suche as haue authoritie in the church for in that place of Mathewe as all learned interpretours both olde and newe do determine the churche signifieth such as haue authoritie in the churche Therefore when you complayne to my Lordes grace Lorde Bishop of the Dioces or their Chauncellors Commissaries c. You tell the church that is suche as be appointed to be publike Magistrates in the churche according to the very true sense and interpretation of that place T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. vlt. It is moste absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstāded either my Lordes grace or the Byshop of the Dioces or the Chauncellor or Commissarie And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayde to complayne vnto the churche whiche is the more vntollerable for that beyng so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe at that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by no reason by no lyke phrase of scripture by no authoritie of any Godly or approued wryter olde or newe whiche notwithstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in his studie so paynefully whē he can haue but one against twenty and but a sillable where he cannot haue a sentence Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed sufficient authoritie for my saying euen the consent of all learned interpreters who by the church in that place vnderstande such as haue chiefe authoritie in the church which in this church of Englād as I haue sayd are bishops Chrysostome Chryso t. Hom. 61. in Math. sayth as much as I do so that it néede not to séeme so straunge that it should astonishe all thee heare it his wordes be these Dic ecclesiae Praesulibus scilicet Praesidentibus Tell the churche that is the Prelates and Presidents But you thinke to ouerlode me with vnséemely wordes howbeit that will not carry away the cause I am so vsed to them by you and yours both in speache and writing that I estéeme them now I thanke God as I do the dust of my féete If I seeke the writers so diligently and tourne the commentaries in my studie so painfully why do you so oft accuse me of ignorance wante of reading taking my pleasure Ex ore tuo te iudico c. mendacem
memorem esse oportet Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. vlt. c. It may be the clerelier vnderstanded that the presbyterie or eldership had the chiefe stroke in this excommunication if it be obserued that this was the pollicie and discipline of the Iewes and of the Synagogue from whence our sauiour Christ tooke this translated it vnto his church that when any man had done any thing that they helde for a taulte that then the same was punished and censured by the elders of the church according to the qualitie of the faulte as it may appeare in S. Mathew for although it be of some and those very learned expounded of the ciuil iudgement vet for Cap. 5. so much as the Iewes had nothing to do with ciuill iudgementes the same being altogethe in the handes of the Romaines and that the worde Sanedrim corrupted of the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which S. Mathew vseth is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbines and especially the Iewes Talmud to signifie the ecclesiasticall gouernours there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures And if the fault were iudged very great then the sentence of excommunication Cap. 9. was awarded by the same Elders as appeareth in S. Iohn And this was y e cause why our sauiour Christe spake so shortly without noting the circumstances more at large for that he spake of a thing which was wel knowen and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto Io. Whitgifte It is very vnlike that our sauiour Christ would borow any such manner or forme of gouernment from the Iewes séeing the same was neither before prescribed vnto them by God nor yet at that time rightly vsed but moste shamefully abused and yet if it were so it quite ouerthroweth your purpose For the Iewes Seigniorie was only at Ierusalen yours must be in euery parishe besides that there is a great differ ce in the persons Howbeit I do not vnderstand how you can drawe the place in the. 5. of Mathew to your purpose for if you meane these wordes Quicunque dixerit fratri suo Racha obnoxius Math. 5. erit concilio He that calleth his brother Racha shal be in daunger of a councell as I am sure you do Christ doth not there prescribe any forme of gouernment or order of punishing but he declareth the degrées of vncharitable dealing towardes our brethren the increase of punishmentes according to the same M. Bullinger in his Cōmentaries vpon that place saith that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bullinger doth signifie consessum Iudicum buiusmodi consessum qualis apud Graecos erat Amphictyonum qui de grauissimis solebant consultare causis And he addeth that Christ hereby signifieth that as the faulte increaseth so doth the punishment also M. Caluine likewise in his harmony vpon the Gospel saith that Christ in this place Caluine alluding to earthly iudgementes doth testifie that God wil be iudge euen of secret anger to punishe it And bicause he proceedeth further which vttereth his anger in bitter speache he saith that he is giltie coram toto coelesti consessu before the celestiall assembly that he may sustaine the greater punishment Noua Glossa saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie an assemblie of iudges and that in suche Noua Glossa assemblies as at Athens in the court of Mars weightier causes were wont to be handeled and punishmentes for offenders consulted vpon There saith that commentarie Christe by the name of a councell alluding to the manners and customes of men teacheth that those are more greuously to be punished which more vtter and expresse their anger Beza sayth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth that kinde of gouernment wherein there was 23. Beza Iudges to whome did apperteine the hearing of waighty causes And the marginall note of the Geneua bible vpon this place is this Like iudgement almoste the Romains obserued for Triumuiri had the examinatiō of small matters the Councell of 23. of greater causes and finally great matters of importance were decided by the senate of 71. iudges whiche here is compared to the iudgement of God or to be punished with hel fire Which fully agréeth with M. Beza his interpretation who sayeth also that it is according to the Hebrewe commentaries Now how you can pul this to your Seigniorie or to Ecclesiastical gouernours only and especially to excommunicatiō I cannot learne or reade in any wryter these whome I haue here named teache a farre other sense and meaning of the wordes of Christe than you do Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 147. Lin. 15. And that this was the meaning of our sauiour Christ in those wordes it may appeare by y e practise which is set forth in the Epistles to the Corinthians For it is certaine that S. Paule did both vnderstande and obserue the rule of oure Sauiour Christe But he communicateth this power of excommunication with the churche and therefore it must needes bee the meaning of oure Sauiour Christ that the excommunication should be by many not by one and by the churche and not by the minister of the churche alone For he biddeth the church of Corinthe twise in the first Epistle 1. Cor. 5. once by a metaphore another time in plaine wordes that they should excommunicate the incestuous persone By metaphore saying (*) This is not 〈◊〉 of the in 〈◊〉 persone purge out your olde leauen in playne flat words when he sayth take away that wicked man from amongst you And in the second Epistle vnderstanding of the repentāce 2. Cor. 2. of that man he entreateth them that they would receiue him in again shewing that he was content to release the bond chaine of his excommunication so that they would do the same therfore considering the absolution or reconciliation of the excommunicate doth pertayne vnto y e church it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner apperteine vnto it Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine speaking of the wordes of Christ Math. 18. wherein I am sure you will haue the same order of gouernmēt to be expressed that is in this place of Math. 5. doth make great differēce betwixt the order there prescribed by Christ that practised by the Apostle 1. Cor. 5. bicause in that place Christ committeth the matter to a few in this place the Apostle séemeth to commit it to the whole multitude M. Caluines words be these A question may be asked what he meaneth by the name of the Churche for Paule Caluine in 18. Math. commaundeth the incestuous Corinthian to be excōmunicated not of any chosen number but of the whole company of the godly wherfore it is probable that here the iudgement is committed to the whole people But bicause then as yet there was no church which professed Christ neither any such order appointed and the Lord speaketh
watring the grounde with the droppes of his teares he asked forgiuenesse But this proueth not that the people had anie authoritie in excommunicating of him In this Church of Englande though the Bishop alone doe excommunicate Excommunicate persons not receyued before publike confession and repentance yet he that is excommunicated for any notorious cryme is not receyued into the Churche againe before he haue made a publike confession in the open Congregation and asked pardon and forgiuenesse of his offence Wherefore there is nothing yet alledged of any such force to proue that Ambrose alone did not excommunicate Theodosius Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision Admonition Act. 11. 30. Act. 15. 2. 4 ▪ 6. c. The sixtenth In that the Lord Bishops their Suffraganes Archdeacons Chauncelors Ro. 12. 7. 8 Phil. 1. 1. Officials Proctors Doctors Sumners and such rauening rablers take vppon them whiche is most horrible the rule of Gods Churche spoyling the Pastor (t) Mat. 18. 17. 18. of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer 1. Co. 12. 28 1. Thes. 5. 12 13. his owne flocke giuen by the worde thrusting away most sacrilegiously that order whiche Christ hath left to his Church and which the primitiue Church hath vsed 1. Tim. 4. 14 ▪ 1. Tim. 5. 17 Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 220. Sect. 1. And first you shewe yourselfe greatly offended that the Pastor is spoyled of his lawfull iurisdiction ouer his flocke therfore you brust out into these wordes of heat rauening rablers horrible sacrllegiously and such like It had bene well if you had tolde vs what that lawfull iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke giuen by the worde had beene For the places of Scripture which you quote for that purpose do not plainly enough set out that matter In the. 18. of Mathew vers 17. after certaine admonitions in priuate offences Christ sayth Dir Ecclesiae tell the Church In whiche place as I tolde you before the Church doth signifie such as haue authority in the Church or else publike reprehension in the open congregation by such as be called thereunto It giueth not any peculiar iurisdiction to the Pastor for any thing that I can learne And in the same Chapter 18. verse where Christ sayth vvhat soeuer ye binde on earth shall be bounde in heauen c. according to your iudgement vttered before it is ment of the whole Church and not of the Pastor onely You haue before denied that one man can excommunicate and therefore this place maketh nothing for your assertion T. C. Pag. 149. Lin. 21. In the. 220. and. 221. pages he speaketh of this thing afresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehearsall of the places of the Admonition asking after his accustomed maner of confuting what maketh this or what proueth that onely whereas he sayde before and proued as he thought that the Minister had onely to doe with excommunication beeing pressed there by the Admonition eyther to defende or renounce his Chauncelors c. He had rather denie both the truth and himselfe than he woulde haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by Poperie threatning the ouerthrowe of the whole Churche and seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and ydlenesse of a fewe to be driuen out of the Church Of the which I will vpon occasion speake a worde if first I shewe that the vse of the auncient Church hath beene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence thereof shoulde come from the gouernours and elders of the Church vnto whome that did especially apperteyne Although I cannot posse by that which maister Doctor sayeth that for so much as the Authours of the Admonition had alledged the wordes tell the Churche to proue the interest of the Churche in excommunication that therefore they coulde not vse the same to proue the interest of the Pastor as who shoulde say that the Pastor is not one of the Churche But of the absurditie of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and howe all men doe see the vanitie of this reason that bycause the people haue an interest by this place therefore the Pastor hath none Io. Whitgifte I do indéed speake of this matter there againe after a sort for I am driuen vnto it by the order of the Admonition But in all those words there by me vttered touching excōmunicatiō I do not once aske what maketh this or what maketh that as you charge me although I might iustly vse these kinde of questions as sufficient answeres to such vnskilfull quotations as they paint theyr margent with and somtimes indéed I make such demaundes but it is to shewe the fondnesse of their allegations I defende no Chauncelors c. that vsurpe any office wherevnto they be not lawfully called but I woulde not haue the Scriptures abused to confute them least thereby séeing the weaknesse of our reasons they be animated rather to procéede than perswaded to leaue of I doe not thinke that Chauncellours ought to excommunicate with this kinde of excommunication that wée talke of except they bée Ministers and so muche haue I vttered in my Answere but I will not disquiet the Church for it by séeking reformation extraordinarily neyther will I bée wilfull if I can heare any sounde reasons to remoue me from this perswasion wherfore you doe in this cause and in this place vniustly charge me The place in the eightéenth of Sainct Mathew is vnderstāded of those to whom the discipline of the Churche is by the authoritie of the Churche committed that is in this churche of Englande the Bishop And therfore that place can not proue that there is any iniurie done to the Pastor or that hée is spoyled of his lawful iurisdiction and this is the effect of my answere whereat you only cauill as your nature is I saye in déede that this place was before alleaged in the Admonition to proue that the whole Churche shoulde excommunicate and not one man onely and therefore I sée not howe the same place maye aptly bée alleadged to proue anye iurisdiction of the Pastor ouer his flocke séeyng it gyueth to the flocke equall iurisdiction with the Pastor and not to the Pastor any superioritie ouer them if the interpretation vsed in the Admonition be true Let the Reader consider the wordes of my Answere to the Admonition and trie whether there be any suche absurdities in them or no. Surely it is a fault both in you and the Admonitors to make the Scripture so pliable to your fansies and the same place to serue as many turnes as you lyst Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. past the middst But I come to shewe the vse of the primitiue Churche in this matter wherof we haue a manifeste This place of Tertullian is verie corruptly alleaged as will appeare ▪ testimonie in Tertullian If sayeth he there be any whiche haue committed suche a Tertull. in Apol.
39. c. saulte that he is to be put awaye from the partaking of the prayer of the churche and from all holie matters or affayres there doe beare rule or be presidentes certayne of the moste approued auncientes or elders which haue obteyned this honour not by money but by good reporte Io. Whitgifte Here you haue separated those things whiche Tertullian hath ioyned and you ioyne together in one sentence that whiche Tertullian hath separated for thus hée writeth And it is a greate argumente and example of the latter iudgement if any man Tertull. in Apolog cap. 39. hath so offended that hee is banished from the communication of prayer of companie and of all holie affaires Here Tertullian maketh a full poynte and beginning a newe sentence he sayth Approued seniors haue authoritie to rule which haue obteined this honour not by money but by a good reporte c. And these wordes be so distinguished from the other that B. Rhenanus placeth his commentarie betwixte them And yet you ioyne them with a péece of the former sentence whiche you haue also mangled and so make as though Tertullian shoulde saye that these Seniors didde excommunicate where as there can no suche matter be gathered of his wordes For there were other poyntes of Discipline for them to execute and other matters of gouernmente to looke vnto And he that shall well weigh the wordes of Tertullian shall perceyue that he meaneth by these approued elders none other but ministers whiche do gouerne the congregation when they come together to prayer and other holie actions the whole order wherof he dothe in that place describe But be it that they had to do also in excommunication which I will not denye for I did neuer so giue the authoritie of excommunicating to the Bishop alone that The Bishop may haue assistance ioyned with hym I thinke he may not haue other assistance ioyned vnto him for the execution of it if the order of the Churche so require yet this proueth not but that the Bishop maye excommunicate alone if that authoritie be giuen vnto hym by the order of the churche This place rather maketh agaynst you for fyrste it is lyke that these Seniors were ministers of the woorde and Sacramentes then it is certayne that the multitude hadde not to doe in the execution of thys Disciplyne whyche you laboure to prooue There canne no greate certaynetie bée gathered of this place whether one or moe did excommunicate excepte you will also conclude that Churchewardens and sydemen bycause they be officers to see good rule kept in the Churche haue interest in excommunications together wyth the Byshop Wherefore I doe requyre a more manyfeste proofe of you For thys place maye wyth more probabilitie be otherwyse expounded and therefore enforceth nothyng Chap. 1. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. tovvardes the ende And that the Auncientes had the ordering of these thyngs and the peoples consente was required and that if the case were a verie difficulte case it was referred vnto the Synodes or Councells and that the ministers dyd not take vpon them of theyr owne authoritie to excommunicate and that those whych did receyue the excommunicate without the knowledge and consent Lib. 3. ep 8. 10. 14. 19. 1. lib. 3. ep of the churche were reprehended it maye appeare almoste in euerie page of Cyprians Epistles and namely in these whiche I haue noted in the margent Io. Whitgifte Thus you driue me to séeke that whyche in those Epistles by you quoted I can not fynde howe muche better dealing had it bin to haue sette downe the wordes of Cyprian that they myght haue ben viewed and considered In the. 8. Epistle of the thirde booke Cyprian doth fynde himselfe gréened with one Therapius bycause he gaue peace to one Uictor a Priest before he had shewed himselfe fully repentant and had satisfied for his offence before also the tyme was come appoynted vnto hym to make satisfaction lykewyse without the request and knowledge of the people Whereby it appeareth that Therapius did absolue Uictor before the tyme appointed and secretly withoute the knowledge of the people but this proueth not your purpose Therapius is iustly reproued for breaking the order appoynted by the Churche and for absoluyng Uictor before his tyme and in a corner without the knowledge of the people but this proueth not that the Byshoppe maye not excommunicate but the contrarie rather for Cyprian in the ende thoughte this absolution to be sufficiente as it appeareth in these wordes But weyghing the matter by long aduise it seemed sufficiente to chyde our fellowe Lib. 3. epi. 8. Therapius for that he didde this thyng vnaduisedlye and to haue instructed hym that hereafter he committe not the lyke But yet we thought not good to withdraw the peace whyche was once giuen howesoeuer of a Priest of God and for this cause wee haue permitted vnto Victor to vse the Communion deliuered vnto hym Whereby it is manyfeste that the absolution of Therapius was thoughte good and that he had authoritie to absolue alone but that it was done not according to the order then in the churche appointed In the tenth Epistle there is nothyng spoken of Excommunication or absolution Epist. 10. onely Cyprian sayeth that he made no answere to the Letters of Donatus and Nouatus and Gordius bycause at his fyrste entraunce into his Bishopryke hée had determined to doe nothing without their Councell meanyng the Priestes and Deacons to whome he writ and withoute the consente of the people What can you conclude hereof touchyng excommunication Cyprian here sheweth him selfe to haue iurisdiction ouer other Churches and authoritie ouer other Ministers and that he wyll doe nothing in doubtfull matters in theyr churches without the consent of the ministers and people But this is nothing toiuchng excōmunication neyther dothe it proue but that he myghte doe thynges without theyr consentes for why shoulde he else saye statui I haue determined signifying therby that it was in his power to do otherwyse if he woulde In the. 14. Epistle he reproueth certayne Priestes for receyuyng into the church Epist. 14. without the consent of their Bishop suche as had fallen in the tyme of persecution and that before they had any iust tryall of their repentance adding that none ought so to be receiued but Per manus impositionem Episcopi Cleri by the imposition of the handes of the Bishop and Cleargie I can not sée any thyng in this Epistle that giueth the people any interest in excommunicating or absoluyng But this is euidently to be collected out of it that no suche thyng ought to be doone withoute the authoritie of the Bishop In the. 19. Epistle he wryteth that he will not take vpon himselfe alone to restore Epist. 9. those to the Churche agayne who falling in the tyme of persecution were condemned by the iudgement of al the Cleargie I knowe not howe you wyll frame this to your purpose for who euer
proued And wee can forbidde no man from the communion although thys prohibition be not mortall but medicinable excepte he eyther willingly confesse it or be accused and conuicted eyther in some secular or ecclesiasticall courte for who dare take vnto hymselfe to be both accuser and iudge And this is my iudgement of the authoritie of Bishops in excommunicating The abuses crept into this Church in the executing of it I doe not defende as it is manyfeste in my Answere but wishe them by due order and authoritie with spéede reformed Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Lin. 7. And it is to bee obserued here that bothe in this parte of the discipline and also in all other partes of it as I haue shewed as in harder and difficulter causes things were referred vnto the Synodes prouinciall nationall or general as the case required so if the elders of any Church shall determine any thing contrary to the word of God or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination the parties which are greeued may haue recourse for remedie vnto the elders and Pastors of diuers Churches that is to say vnto Synods of Shires or dioceses or prouinces or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conuentent by the Church according to the difficultie or waight of the matters which are in controuersie whyche meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently not only for the decision of such difficulties which the seuerall presoyteries cannot so well iudge of but also to the end that common counsell might be taken for the best remedie of the vices or incommodities which eyther the Churches be in or in daunger to be in And as those things whiche cannot be decided by the eldership of the Churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese so those which for their hardnes cānot be there decided must be brought into the Synods of larger compasse as I haue shewed to haue bin done in the Apostles times and in the Churches which followed them long after Io. Whitgifte So shall there be turbarum contentionum satis much vnquietnesse for one or two busy Pastors suche as your schole can yelde good store of woulde inuent matter ynough The tumultuous and dis orderly order propounded by y e Replyer to trouble the whole Church and Pastors should then be compelled to be as much absent from their benefyces by reason of those Synods as they be now vpon other occasions Lord what a tumultuous Church would this be if this plat for me might take place In the meane while the Prince shoulde be a cyphar and onely wayte to vnderstand what kynde of Religion ceremonies and gouernment these Seigniories and their Synodes would prescribe vnto hir to mainteyne and defende for the must haue potestatem facti onely not Iuris she must take lawes she must giue none she must execute whatsoeuer it pleaseth master Pastors and their Seniors to commaund hir else wil they stirre vp the whole countrey against hir at the least she must be excommunicated me thinketh I see the very beginning of a newe Popedome Haue you shewed this cōfused order to haue bin in y e Apostles time or in y e primitiue Church T. C. ascribeth his owne deuise to the Apostles Where haue you shewed it or when will you proue it Synodes there were indéede and necessary it is that when occasion serueth they should be but your Seigniorie in euery Towne or parish vnder a Christian Prince neuer was neyther is it possible that without confusion it should be as I haue before declared But what audacitie is this to ascribe an order inuented by your selfe vpon the whiche scarse thrée of you do agrée if you were well examined and in the which your selfe or euer it were long would espie some thing to be altered vnto the Apostles Of Byshops Courts and their officers Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 1. These things standing in this sort al those courts of Byshops and Archbyshops must needes fall which were by Antichrist erected against this lawfull iurisdiction of eldership as the court of faculties and those which are holden by Chauncellours commissaries officialls and such like the describing of the corruptions whereof would require a whole booke of whiche I will note the principall heads and summes Io. Whitgifte And not these courts only but all the courts in England would be deuoured vp of your Seigniorie yea each the Princes regall authoritie as may appeare partly by that which is said before and partly by that which shall follow hereafter For what iurisdiction will not your Seigniorie vsurp what matters would it not presume to determine what degrée of person would it not tread vnder foote but let vs heare what you say of these courts Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 2. First for that they enter into an office which perteyneth not vnto them but to euery particular Church and especially to the eldership and gouernours of the Church and therfore although they should do nothing but that which were good lawfull and godly yet can they not approue their labours vnto men much lesse to God putting their sickle in another mans haruest For neyther by the truth of the word of God doth that apperteyne vnto them neyther by M. Doctors own iudgment if his yea were yea and his nay nay considering that he sayd before that this iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers And although it should perteyne vnto the Byshop as he is called to whome notwithstanding it doth not apperteyne yet were it not lawfull for him to translate thys office vnto another and to appoynt one to do it when he listeth no more than he can appoynt them to do his other offices of ministring as preaching the word and ministring the sacraments Io. Whitgifte Your seuerall gouernment by eldership in euery parish I vtterly reiect as neyther iustifiable by Gods worde nor any example of any churche at any tyme vnder a Christian prince in that maner and forme by you prescribed The courte of faculties medleth not with excommunications The courtes of Chauncellours c. haue many moe matters to deale withall than excommunication for that is but one parte of discipline that they vse or ought to vse only vpon an extremitie concerning the whiche discipline and the ministers therof I am of the selfe same same iudgement that I was before and my yea is yea Gualter in .1 ▪ Cor. 5. and my nay is naye And yet it I will tell you what I haue read since in M Gualters commentaries vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. If any would appoynt some kynde of separation or shuttyng out which should be executed by a lawfull magistrate and should rather be ciuill A kynde of ciuill excommunication than ecclesiasticall we will not be against them For the lawes of our cities also doo punish them with excommunication
that can not he founde as belike it can not then must their antiquitie be very great Collegiate and Cathedrall Churches be all one for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie if it be not so shewe the difference The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. But for so much as those auncient Collegiate churches were no more like vnto those whiche we haue now than things most vnlike our Cathedrall churches haue not so muche as this olde worne cloke of Antiquitie to hide their nakednesse to keepe out the shower For the Collegiate churches in times past were a Senate ecclesiastical stāding of godly learned ministers and elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in y e citie or towne where such churches were for that in such great cities townes commonly there were the most learned pastors auncients therfore the townes villages rounde about in harde difficuite causes came and had their resolutions of their doubtes at their handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteron e Deut. 17. that when there was any great matter in the countrie which the Le tes in matters perteyning to God and the iudges in matters perteyning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Hierusalem where there was a great number of Priests Le tes and learned iudges of whom they should haue their questions dissolued and this was the first vse of Collegiate churches Io. Whitgifte True it is that in times past there was in euery citie Collegium presbyterorum cui In euery citie a colledge of 〈◊〉 praeerat Episcopus a Colledge of ministers ouer whom the Bishop bare rule the which lerome calleth Senatum Ecclesiae the Senate of the churche and the same is now called a collegiate or Cathedrall churche It is also euident that these Presbyteri were all Priests that they with the Bishop had the deciding of al cōtrouersies in doctrine or ceremonies the directiō of diuers other matters in al those places that were vnder that citie that is in all that shyre or Diocesse therfore sayeth M. Caluine speaking Institut cap. 8. Sect. 52. of the primitiue church Euery citie had a colledge of Seniors which were Pastors Doctors for they all had the office of preaching to the people of exhorting and of correcting the which office S. Paule doth commit to Bishops and this is that Seigniorie wherof the auncient writers speake so much which you vntruly without consideration say to haue bene in euery parish and to consist as well of other as of Priests Ministers of the worde and although that kinde of gouernment which these churches had is transferred to the Ciuill Magistrate to whom it is due and to such as by him are appointed yet is it not so cleane blotted out as you would make vs beleeue For Our Cathedral churches not much differing from those of auncient time the Bishop who was then and is now the chiefe of that colledge or Church keepeth his authoritie still may if he please call to gither those ministers or Priestes of the Cathedrall Church to consult of such things as are expedient in diuers p tes he can do nothing without them Moreouer diuerse of the same churches some 〈◊〉 office and some appointed by election are bounde to attende vpon prouinciall 〈◊〉 so oft as the Archbishop at the cōmaundement of the Prince doth call the ame wise they be places wherein are nourished for the most parte the best the wise the learnedst men of the Clergie in the lande whiche not onely in the respect of their soundnesse in religiō profoundnesse in learning diligēce in preaching but wisedome also experience dexteritie in gouerning are not onely an ornament to the realme profitable to the Churche honour to the Prince but also a stay from barbarisme a bridle to sectes heresies a bulwarke agaynst confusion Wherefore as the vse of The hse of Cathedrall churches as necessarie now as afore 〈◊〉 them then for those times states was good and godly so is the vse of them now in this age and state no lesse conuenient godly and necessarie whiche you nor all your fautors shall euer be able to disproue The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. In the ende Afterwarde the honor whiche the smaller Churches gaue vnto them in asking them councell ▪ they tooke vnto themselues and that whiche they had by the curtesy and good will proceding of a reuerent estimation of them they did not onely take vnto them of right but also dispossessed them of all authority of hearing and determining any matters at all And in the end they came to this which they are nowe which is a company that haue strange names and strange offices vnheard of of al the purer churches of whom the greatest good that we can hope of is that they do no harme For although there be diuerse which do good yet in respect that they be Deanes Prebendaries ▪ Canons Petycanons c. for my parte I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them Io. Whitgifte All this is vntrue and your owne enely imagination for these Churches haue not encreased theyr authoritie but diminished it rather as it is euident The names Tract 8. Ca. 2. and offices vsed in them I haue proued before in the title of Archbishops c. to be neyther straunge nor vnhearde of in the purer and auncient Churches And though you sée no profite that commeth to the Churche by them yet those that be quietly disposed in the Churche those that haue a care for the good gouernment of the Church those that haue not by any schisme deuided themselues from the Churche sée great profite and singular commoditie The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 1. 2. And where he sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the maintenance and bringing vp of Schollers where now for the most parte they serue for fat morsels to fill if might be the greedy appetites of those which otherwise haue enough to liue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthie to be kepce at the charge of the churche or els whose presence is necessary and dutifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answered before this onely I adde that they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctrine but those whiche made the people of God beleeue that they were happie when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kinde of false prophecie I say and Ieremy especially do complayne And therefore vnlesse M. Doctor amend his speach and leaue this crying peace peace all is well when there are so
in church matters to pluck downe that which is alreadie buylded and to prescribe a new platforme to be certain of their ing expert in their doings groūded in learning and experience not yonglings and nouices whose yea to day is nay to morow whose heads are full of new toys and deuises who publish in print their first cogitations and counsels before they haue any leysure to thinke of their second This is that whiche I misselyke and reproue in the authors of the Admonition for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if they had published their myndes as scholars and not as maisters as learners not as teachers as putters in mynde of that whiche best liked themselues not as prescribers what all other men ought of duetie to followe theyr sodaine corrections had bene much more tollerable But I will not multiplie wordes with you neyther will I require that whiche you contemptuously enoughe haue spoken of my selfe only I admonishe the Reader to take héede howe he doth credite such rashe and yong buylders whiche so soone as they haue ended their buylding must be constrayned to plucke downe the same agayne Ansvvere to the Additions detractions c. of the fyrst parte of the Admonition In the preface to Archbishops Byshops Suffraganes Deanes c. they haue Doctors and Bachelers of diuin ie mislyked added Vniuersitie Doctors and Bachelers of diuinitie It should seeme that they would haue a confusion of degrees which they call equalitie as well in vniuersities as in Parishes and other their imagined congregations marke whether this geare tend not to the ouerthrow of vniuersities and of all good learning T. C. Pag. 173. tovvards the ende of the first Section For whereas he accuseth the Authors of the Admonition in the first leafe as though they should condemne Doctors and Bachlers of diuinitie and so bring in confusion of degrees he vpon the. 5. leafe confesseth that they allow of a Doctor Although he that taketh away degrees of Doctor or Bachler of diumine doth not bring in confusion nor taketh not away all degrees of schooles especially seeing they are now made bare names without any offices and oftentymes they are admitted to these degrees which neyther can nor will teach Io. Whitgifte I say that belike they allowe of a Doctor of law bicause they haue left that title out in their seconde edition and haue in stead thereof placed Doctors and Bachlers of diuinitie The cause why you leaue so much vnto them in this barbarous opinion The cause why the Replier ioyneth agaynst degrees in diumitie may be coniectured to be the repulse that you suffered when you earnestly desired the one of them If the degrées be bestowed vpon vnworthie persons which you are not able to proue at this day the fault is in the persons that so bestow them not in the degrees the taking away whereof must néedes in the ende bring in confusion and barbarisme and in déede they can by no meanes stand with your platforme and therefore do you here insinuate that you are content to allow all the degrées in schooles but onely the degrées in diuinitie and yet as I sayde before not long since you greatly desired euen the highest of them Additions detractions and alterations in the first part of the Admonition In the Preface In the margent for the. 15. of Mathew vers 23. they haue quoted the. 15. of Math. vers 13. to proue that tyrannous Lordship cannot stand with Christs kingdome the wordes be these But he ansvvered and sayd enery plant vvhich my father hath not planted shall be rooted vp meaning that such as be not by free adoption and grace grafted in Jesus Christ shall be rooted vp But this proueth not their proposition I do not alow tyrannous Lordship but I disallow such vnapt reasons In the same Preface speaking of Bishops c. they haue added these wordes they were once of our minde but since their consecration they be so transubstantiated that they are become such as you see It may be that consideration of the tyme place state condition and other circumstances hath altered some of them in some poynts as wise and not wilfull men in such matters by such circumstances be oftentimes altered but that any one of them were euer of your minde in most things vttered in those two treatises I can not be perswaded Fol. 1. For the. 1. Act. vers 12. is noted Act. 2. vers 2 to proue that in the olde Church there was a try all had both of the Ministers abilitie to instruct and of their godly conuersation also The text is this And it shall be that vvhosoeuer shall call on the name of the Lorde shall be saued Which is farther frō the purpose a great deale than the other place is There is also in the same leafe left out King Edwards Priests whiche King Edwards priests left out argueth with howe little discretion and lesse aduise the first Admonition was pe ed. Speaking of learning master Nowels Catechisme these wordes be added and so first they consecrate them and make them Ministers and then they set them to schoole This scoffe is answered before and might very well A scoffe haue bene left out And a little after where it was before then election was made by the common consent of the whole Church now it is thus corrected A correction of a place then election was made by the Elders with the common consent of the whole Churche which altereth the matter something but yet is not proued by the text alleaged out of the first of the Acts and by me answered before Fol. 2. For Act. 14. verse 13. is quoted Act. 14. verse 23. which ouersight I my selfe haue corrected in my answere to that place There is also left out an Albe which before was sayde to be required Albe left out by the Pontificall in the ordering of ministers As I sayde before so I say agayne that in the booke of ordering ministers now vsed and printed since Anno dom 1559. there is neyther required albe surples vestiment nor pastorall staffe This lyne is also added these are required by their Pontifical meaning surplesse vestiment c. which is vntrue as I haue sayde before For the. 1. Tim. 1. verse 14. nowe it is 1. Tim. 1. verse 19. but it is not to proue any matter in controuersie onely it is vncharitably and vniustly applyed For. 1. Sam. 9. verse 28. is placed 1. Sam. 9. verse 18. the selfe same place that I haue answered before Where before it was thus written Then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers inuented by man nowe these wordes inuented by man be lefte out and there is added as necessitie of tyme required so they mighte poure c. I knowe not their meaning excepte they woulde neyther haue vs bounde to the Lordes prayer nor any other Fol. 3. It was before remoue Homilies Articles Iniunctions a prescript order nowe Alteration of words it is that prescript
doings and therfore they haue corrected these assertiōs in their second edition of the first Admonition on this sorte Then election was made by the elders with the cōmon cōsent of the whole church Surely these men be past shame else woulde they not denie their owne written assertions T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 6. And whereas he sayth that it is al one to say that the election of the mynister must be made by (*) A manifest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you leaue out this worde whole the church to say It must be made by the people it is a great ouersight to make the parte whole all one seing y e people be but one part of the church the mynister and the other gouernours are albeit not the greatest yet the principallest part I graunt that sometimes a parte is taken for the whole and so we do call sometimes the gouernours of the churche the churche and sometimes the people But where the question is of the proprietie of these speaches the Church and the people there all men that haue any iudgement can easily put a difference Io. Whitgifte What I haue sayde how truly you haue reported my wordes how aptly you haue replied to my Answere euen the very simple Reader may easily vnderstand therfore for answers to this I shall only desire him to compare our wordes togither and then it shall easily appeare how you haue falsified my wordes for wheras I gather out of these wordes of y e Admonition Election was made by the common cōsent of the whole Church therfore their collection is true which say that they would haue the mynisters to be called allowed placed by the people you either of purpose or by ouersight which is very vsuall with you haue left out y e worde whole make as though I should say that it is all one to say that the election must be made by the church to say it must be made by the people should confound the people the church the part with the whole which is a manifest vntruth But by y e way it is to be noted y t you séeme to separate the people frō the election of mynisters for you will not haue the worde Church in the Admonition to cōprehend the people else why haue you these words when the question is of the proprietie of these speaches the church and the people and surely it may séeme that this is their meaning bicause in their second edition they say the election was made by the Elders with the common consent of the people so that the election should be made by the Elders and the people only should cōsent to the election which is contrary to the rest of your assertion Ansvvere to certayne Articles c. 4. Lin. 9. They hold that a Bishop at no hande hath authoritie to ordeyne ministers This Article you confesse to be truely gathered but now you make this glosse not alone and yet in their Admonition it is in flat termes that the ordering of mynisters doth at no hand apperteyne to Bishops 6. Lin. 28. They will haue the mynisters at theyr owne pleasure to preach without lycence This is true by your owne cōfessiō for you will haue no other licēce but your calling to the ministerie which must be as you say by the congregation Here you shut out both the Princes licence and the Bishops 7. Lin. 13. fol. 17. Lin. 6. pag. 1. Whatsoeuer is set down in this Article is manifestly affirmed in the Admonitiō your answere to it is friuolous and nothing to the purpose For in the firste parte of the Admonition ▪ Fol. 2. pag. 1. These be the wordes In those dayes knowne by voice learning doctrine now they must be discerned frō other by Popish Antichristian apparell as cap gowne tippet c. And in the second part speaking of the apparell prescribed to ministers they say on this sort There is no order in it but confusion no comelinesse but deformitie no obediēce but disobediēce both against God and the Prince Are you not then ashamed to say that this Article They will haue the mynister discerned from others by no kinde of apparell and the apparell appoynted they terme Antichristian and the apparell appoynted by the Prince disobedience agaynst the Prince is falsified Fol. 4. Lin. 1. Pag. 2. They will haue all Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons c. together with their offices iurisdictions courtes and liuings cleane taken away and with speede remoued You say that this is falsified in parte bicause there is left out Lords grace Iustice of peace and Quorum c. Surely the Article is truly collected in euery poynt and playnely affirmed in the. 2. leafe of the first parte of that Admonition As for your gibing wordes that follow they be but winde I warrāt you the cōfutatiō will abide the light the Author will shew his face which you are ashamed to do 9. Lin. 9. The Article is truly collected looke in the first parte of that Admonition Fol. 2. Pag. 2. Fol. 3. And in the second part of that Admonition Fol. 1. pag. 2. Fol. 5. pag. 1. 17. Lin. 12. The collection is true for their wordes be these They simply as they receyued it from the Lorde we sinfuily mixed with mans inuentions and deuises And therfore you vntruly say that it is falsified 19. Lin. 16. They will haue no Godfathers nor Godmothers you say that this Article is also vtterly falsified what meane you so to forget your sslfe Is it not thus writtē in the first part of y e first Admonitiō o. 3 pa. 2. Godfathers and Godmothers once disallowed after recāted And as for Baptisme it was enough with them if they had water and the partie to be baptised fayth and the mynister to preache the worde and mynister the Sacramentes Nowe we must haue surplesse deuised by Pope Adrian Interrogatories mynistred to the infant Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus c Howe say you are not Godfathers and Godmothers here disallowed wherefore be they else in this place recyted or why are they here ascribed to Pope Higinus will you now allow any thing in the Church inuented by the Pope In deede in the second edition of this firste Admonition these wordes Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus be cleane left out as I haue before noted Wherfore eyther you haue not redde the diuersitie of their editions or else you are very impudent 22. Fol 8. in fine I maruell why you say that this collection is falsified Looke Fol. vlt. pag 2. of the first part of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 6. The rest of those articles are answered in the discourse of the booke Besides that the fanlts which are found with the vntrue gathering of them are not taken away by M. Doctor but only in confident bould asseuerations And if I should say any thing I should but repeat their wordes Io. Whitgifte The iudgement hereof
eightenth chapter saith that equall power and function is giuen vnto all the ministers of of the Church and that from the beginning no one preferred himselfe to an other sauing only that for order some one did call them togither propound the matters that were to be consulted of and gathered the voyces c. Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the confession in the. 17. chapter be these truely Christe is present with his Churche and is a lyuing head who straightly forbad his Apostles and their successors to chalenge the primacie or supremacie in the Church This the confession speaketh of such primacie supremacie as the Byshop of Rome doth chalenge ouer the whole Church for in that place it onely speaketh of the Popes vsurped authoritie and not one worde of that superioritie among Ministers which is now in controuersie That which the confession affirmeth in the eightenth chapter maketh nothing against any superioritie allowed in this Churche of Englande for we acknowledge that there is one equall power and function of al Ministers but yet superioritie also to be among them for order sake and the same doth the Confession acknowledge in plaine and manifest woords euen in this place by you alledged whereby also that distinction is verifyed whiche you séeme so greatly to mislyke to witte that there is an equalitie of all Ministers of Gods worde quoad ministerium touching the ministerie but degrées and superioritie among them quoad ordinem politiam touching order and gouernment T. C. Musculus in his common places in the chapter of the offices of the ministers of the worde saith that in the Apostolike Church the ministers of the worde were none aboue another nor subiecte to any head or president and mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree than another And further he saith vpon the seconde chapter of the seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a Bishop being taken from the rest of the ministers and giuē to one was the first step to the papacie howsoeuer in other places he speaketh otherwise Io. Whitgifte Musculus in those wordes of his common places speaketh of superioritie quoad officium potestatem touching office and power for these wordes dothe he vse he speaketh not of superioritie touching order and pollicie whiche is nowe in question The same power is in all ministers of the worde of bynding losing and administring the Sacraments but not of gouerning in the externall pollicie of the Church Moreouer Musculus in that place speaketh chiefly of the vsurped power of the Byshop of Rome and of that authoritie which his Byshoppes doe chaleng and clai e from him wherefore that place maye not be wrested against the lawfull iurisdictiō and superioritie that is nowe vsed in this Church of Englande Upon the seconde chapter of thée seconde Epistle to the Thessalonians he onely sheweth how the Pope came to such excessiue authoritie No man doubteth but that such things as were well instituted and vpon iust considerations may by proces of tyme abused but doth it therfore followe that they may not be restored to their right vse agayne A man might then much more strongly reason agaynst your equalitie which by sufficient tryall as by Ierome in sundrie places it maye appeare is proued to haue bene and to be the cause of schismes sectes contentions seditions tumultes murders confusion of Churches and common weales c. Nothing is so well instituted but it may be abused T. C. 3 That the election of Ministers perteyneth not to one man The foresayde Heluetian confession c. in the eightenth chapter sayth that the ministers ought to be chosen of the Churche or by those which are lawfully deputed of the Churche and afterwarde ordeyned with publike prayers Io. Whitgifte This maketh againste you for the confession alloweth that election of Ministers which is made by those that are appoynted to that office in the Churche for these be the wordes of the Confession but our Byshops are appointed to that office in this Church therefore the Confession alloweth Byshops to elect Ministers The wordes that followe that they should be ordeyned with publike prayers is obserued in our Church T. C. M. Caluine in his fourth booke of Institutions 3. chapter 15. section sheweth that the Church did choose and that the Apostles did moderate the election aud confuteth them whyche vpon the places of Titus and Timothie woulde proue that the election belongeth to one man Io. Whitgifte To this place of M. Caluine I haue sufficiently answered in the thirde treatise of election of Ministers chap. 7. the. 1. diuision T. C. 4 That there ought newe to be Elders to gouerne the Church wyth the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluine hath beene before declared in the fyrste of these propositions Io. Whitgifte And in the same place haue I answered that whych is there by you alledged out of M. Caluine T. C. M. Beza in his booke of Diuorces page 161. sayth that the Eldership of the Church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Io. Whitgifte M. Beza doth not say in that place that the Eldership of the Churche ought to be where there is a Christian Magistrate but that it may be and that it hath bene which he onely speaketh and proueth not And yet if he meane that Presbyterie whereof the Canons speake by him only in generalitie named then is it no other than we haue at this daye in this Church of Englande in Cathedrall Churches and Colleges for in the Canons presbyterium signifieth nothing else but a Colledge or company of Priestes and Ministers of the worde and Sacraments as I haue further declared in the. 17. Tract where I haue also shewed that M. Beza his opinion is that the gouernment of the Church maye admitte alteration according to the diuersities of times place and persons cap. vlt. T. C. Touching Deacons M. Caluine 4. booke 3. chapter 9. section after that he had discribed what Deacons the Churches had in the Apostles tymes saythe that we after their example ought to haue the lyke Io. Whitgifte M. Caluines words be these En quales habuerit diaconos Apostolica ecclesia quales ad eius exemplum habere nos conueniat Beholde what Deacons the Apostolicall churche had euen suche as it is conuenient we should haue according to that example Hee dothe not saye that we ought to haue them but that it is conuenient to haue th he doth not make them necessary but conuenient and he must be vnderstanded to ke of that Churche whereof he had experience not of this Churche wherein he was 〈◊〉 a straunger Of Deacons and that their office was not only to prouide for the poore but to preache also and to baptise I haue proued Tract 19. Tract 14. T. C. M. Beza in the. 5. chap. and. 23. section of his Confessiōs sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the
a little after hee sayeth That hee coulde not omitte those businesse withoute the omittyng of his dutye To the same effecte dothe he speake in that Treatise that is among his Episiles in number an hundreth and ten where he desyreth the people that they woulde not moleste hym for the space of fyue dayes wyth theyr worldely matters by reason of certayne busynesse commytted vnto hym as it appeareth in these woordes It pleaseth mee and you for the care of the scriptures whych the brethren and fathers my fellowe Byshops dydde vouchesafe to laye vppon mee in Ang. epi. 110. the Councells of Numidia and Carthage for the space of fyue dayes no man shoulde trouble mee These thynges were propounded you were contente youre decree and consente was rehersed it was kepte but a small tyme and afterwardes you did violently brust in vnto mee neyther coulde I bee suffered to doe that whyche I woulde In the forenoone and in the after noone I am troubled with mennes busynesse I desyre you for Chrystes sake to suffer me to committe the care of my troubles to Eradius this yong man and prieste whome thys daye in the name of Christ I appoynt to be your bishop and my successour Possidonius nameth no elders but speaketh onely of Augustine and whosoeuer shall with diligence pervse the nintéenth chapter of Possidonius shall be enforced to confesse that he meaneth Augustine was occupyed as well in ciuill as ecclesiasticall matters and in determinyng of them as in writyng of letters for them or in giuyng of counsell Wherefore this example of Augustine is moste fitly alleaged of the Bishop of Sarum and manyfestly declareth what was the vse in his dayes touching suche matters Chap. 3. the. 15. Diuision The Bishop of Sarū in the defense of the Apol. in the. 5. parte 4. chap. 2. sect T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 2. And for the truth of thys matter that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill affayres (*) But you shall not fynde him contrary to him selfe as you surmyse I will appeale to no other than to the Bishop himselfe who doth assume playnly the same that the admonition here affirmeth Io. Whitgifte In that place the Bishop of Sarisburie speaketh onely of the Pope who vsurpeth M. Iewell speaketh not againste ciuill o ces in ministers simply but allowed them by his owne practise the whole and full authoritie of a secular Prince and doth chalenge the same iure diuino by the authoritie of Gods worde He speaketh not of suche Bishops to whome so muche ciuill authoritie is committed by the Prince as maye serue to the correction of vice and good and quyet gouernmente of the Churche forsomuch as he did himselfe exercyse the same And surely it is not well done of you thus to charge that worthie man with contrarieties vniustly For doth he that confuteth the Popes vniust claime and vngodly vsurpation of both the swords in that maner y t he claymeth vseth them condemne al maner kind of ciuil iurisdctiō by christian Princes committed to Bishops being helpes vnto them in dooing their duetie and tendyng to the good and quiet gouernmente of the Churche Surely you are good in confounding but too bad in distinguishing wherefore you haue vntruly reported of that worthie Bishop Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 3. And therfore I conclude that forsomuche as (*) Wherefare you not asha med of vutruthi bothe the holie scriptures do teache that ministers ought not to meddle with ciuil offices and reason and the practise of the Church do confirme it that they ought to kepe themselues within the limites of the ministerie and ecclesiastical functions least whylest they breake forth into the callyng of a Magistrate in stead of shewing them selues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ouerseers they be founde to declare themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is busy bodies medlyng in things which belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whiche they knowe well mough that they ought 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say studie to adorne that charge whiche they take in hand and do professe I leaue to speake any further of this matter Io. Whitgifte Melchisedech being a Priest did exercise ciuill iurisdiction for he was king of Salem The scriptures teach that ecclesiasticall persons maye haue ciuill iurisdiction Gen 14. Aaron being a Priest did iudge the whole people in temporall matters euen in causes of inheritance Num. 27. In the. 17. of Deuteronomie there is a commaundement that ciuill matters of difficultie shal be referred to the Priests and to the iudge Elye and Samuel Priests did iudge the people in matters temporall Gen. 14. Nume 27. Deut. 17. 1. Sam. The people of Israell after theyr captiuitie were gouerned by Priestes and Prophetes as by Esdras Nehemias Mattathias c. The Scripture in no place commaundeth the contrarie nor moueth vnto it yet you are not ashamed to say that the holye scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle with ciuill offices Lykewyse in Augustines tyme it is euidente by the woordes before recited The practise of the churche concerning ciuill offices in ministers that it was not straunge but vsuall and counted a péece of duetie for Bishops to deale in Ciuil causes and that as Iudges The authours of the Centuries in the fourth Centur. chap. 7. say that Bishops in that age did giue sentence in ciuil causes if anye didde appeale from the Ciuill courtes to their authoritie Sozomene Lib. 1. cap. 9. Bishops gaue sentence in ciuil causes Cent. 4. cap. 7. Sozom. li. 1. cap. 9. wryteth thus of Constantine the Emperour This was a greate argumente of his good affection towardes Christian religion that he made a lawe for the freedome of clearkes in all places and also hee gaue libertie for those that were called into iudgemente to appeale to the Bishops if they were disposed to refuse the ciuill magistrates and he commaunded that their sentence should stand and be of more force than the sentence of the Appeale graū ted from ciuill magistrates to Bishops other iudges euen as though it had proceeded from the Emperour hymselfe And that the Magistrates and their ministers should see that acomplished that was determined and iudged in suche causes by the Bishops Nicephorns lib. 7. cap. 9. maketh mention of one Philaeas a Bishop that was greatly Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 9. commended for his wisedome and dexteritic in determining ciuill matters committed vnto him Sozomene lib. 6. cap. 32. testifieth of Epiphanius Bishop of Salamine Soz. li. 6. c. 32. Epiphanius busied with ciuill canses that together with his pastorall office he was occupyed and that with greate commendation in ciuill and politike affaires Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 32. testifieth that Dorotheus being a Priest of the Churche of Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 32. Antioche and wel learned did scrue the
Emperour in ciuill businesse Theodosius the Emperour made a lawe wherein it was decréed that all ciuil stryfes and controuersies shoulde be referred to the iudgemente of the churche if either Dorotheus Duaren lib. 1. of the parties did desire it And the same lawe did Carolus Magnus afterwards renew and confirme and yet doe you saye that the practise of the churche dothe confirme that Bishops may not meddle with ciuill offices If you flée to reason is it not good reason that a Bishop shoulde haue that office Some ciuill iurisdiction giuen to Bishops is agreable to reason and that authoritie that maye helpe hym in dooing his duelie in correctyng vice in procuryng peace in maynteyning good order in cuttyng off sectes schismes and suche lyke in accomplyshing all whiche be that séeth not howe muche he is helped by suche ciuill authoritie as the Prince committeth vnto hym is eyther voyde of reason or wilfully blynded Wherfore I may moste iustly conclude that for so muche as the holye Scriptures The conclusion of this matter doe teache that Ecclesiasticall persons maye meddle with ciuill effices the practyso of the Churche confirmeth the same and reason telleth that it is conuenient and seeing that suche as practise them both in the maner and forme before declared breake not foorth into any other mannes callyng busy not themselues in things whiche belong not vnto them but walke in their callyng occupie themselues in matters incidents vnto it and do good seruice both to God their Prince and their countrey these offices may very aptely concurre and meete together in one person and be profitably linked and ioyned together in one man This did Augustine confesse and acknowledgeth that the Apostle hath bounde them to these troubles not by his owne iudgement but by Bishops bounde by the holie ghost to ciuill troubles iudgement of him that did speake in him as I haue before declared This haue the godlie Bishops Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. consented vnto this doo the graue wise and learned Bishops in our tyme in this Churche by experience knowe Admonition The eightenth And birds of the same fether are couetous patrones of benefices persons vicars readers parish priests stipēdaries riding chaplains y t vnder the authoritie of their masters spoile their flocks of y e food of their soules (a) Phi. 21. 2. such seeke not the Lord Iesus but their own bellies (b) Iud. 12. cloudes that are without rayne trees without fruite (c) Mat. 23. 27. painted sepulchers full of dead bones fatted in all aboundance of iniquitie and leane locustes in all feeling knowledge and synceritie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 226. Sect. vlt. 227. Sect. 1. It is true that couetous Patrones of benefices be a great plague Couetous patrones to this Church and one of the principal causes of rude and ignorant ministers God graunt some speedie reformation in that poynt Neyther can I excuse all persons vicars c. but all this is spoken without the booke and therefore not fitlye of you alleadged agaynst the booke T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 4. Unto the two sections I haue spoken in that which hath bene sayde touching excommunication canons and Prebendaries c. And vnto that whyche is conteyned in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsones and vicars be a greate pi gue vnto this Churche and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Io. Whitgifte I confesse that the couetousnesse of some of them one waye and the contentiousnesse of some of you an other way hath done muche harme in the Church brought no small hinderance to the Gospell I pray God open the heartes of all that euery man may espye his owne deformitie and be therof ashamed T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. vlt. Lykewise vnto the two next sections I haue answered before in speaking against the spirituall courtes which are now vsed vnto the next after that in speakyng of the ordeyning of ministers Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered to this conteined page 233. I vvill neitheriustifie that vvhich is amisse nor condemne that vvhich I knovve not Only this I say that this taunting spirit of yours seketh rather defamation than reformation vttereth spitefulnesse of stomacke rather than godlie zeale for what a deriding of authoritie disdayn towards the same is this three of them would be enough to sting a man to death for why they are high commissioners VVhat example haue you of any godly man that vsed thus to deride and floute magistrates you say all this springeth out of that Pontificall whiche you must allow by subscription c. But it had bin well if you had tolde vs out of what part of that Pontificall they spring and how they be thereof gathered This you passe ouer in silence Admonition And thus much be spoken as touching this booke against which to stand is a wonder to two 2. Tim. 2. 7. 2. Cor. 4. 4. forts of men the one ignorant the other obstinate The Lord giue those that be his vnderstanding in all things that they may haue iudgement as for the other whome the God of this world hathe blinded least they (f) Math. 13. 15. should see and confesse the truth and so be saued and that do in the full growth of wickednesse maliciously resist the truth God confound them that his peace may be vpon Israell and his sauing health vpon this nation Ansvver to the Admonition Page 234. Sect. vlt. Nay surely it is a wonder to wise learned and godly men to see this booke so painefully penned with such aduise perused and by so long practise allowed now to be defaced as it were with friuolous Foure sortes of aduersaries to the Church vnlearned and vnapt reasons and that by fower sorts of men Atheists Papists and Anabaptists and as you woulde be counted Puritanes God of his infinite mercie giue you charitable quiet thankfull minds and eyther conuert your harts or roote al such disturbers out of this Church that we may with one hart and mind serue our Lord God T. C. Pag. 171. Lin. vlt. And vnto that which is conteyned in the latter end of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the Church shall iudge of the aptnesse or vnaptnesse of our reasons albeit we do fynde fault with diuers things in the booke yet we neither oppugne as enemies nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puritanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs. And to the prayer against disturbers of the Church I say with all my heart Amen Io. Whitgifte I would to God you did not oppugne it as enimies c. Surely then would not your fiercenesse nor your bitternes of speach haue bin such as it is But God forgiue you and to the prayer I say agayne Amen Amen Admonition If this be not playne inough by that which is already set