fittest for one It is in very deede the best referencie for one thing secundùm idem cannot haue sundrie relation The 5. Demonstration To doe contrary to the precept and practise of the apostles is vnlawfull Demonstration To ordeine an officer without a certaine place is contrary Ergo vnlawfull Titus 1.5 acts 14.23 To the Maior To do contrary to the precepts and practise of the apostles is not euer vnlawfull as Act. 15.29 Remonstrance v. is commanded Absteyne from blood and strangled yet it is now lawfull to eate bloud or strangled therfore this vniuersall maior is false To the Minor To ordeine an officer without a place or to ordeine many officers in readines to doe office and seruice to the whole church is not contrary to the practise or commaundement of the apostles in any of those places but rather iustifiable out of the place Act. 14.23 Paul and Barnabas returned to Lystra and Iconium and Antioche 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ordeyned vnto them or for them pastoral elders in euery church and commended them to the Lord in whome they had beleeued They ordeyned pastoral elders in euery church or in the church howe followeth it hereof that they did not or might not ordeine some ouer and aboue for the prouision of the whole church likewise out of the place Tit. 1.5 v. It is an impossible collection Absurditie of the Demonstrator for this were handsome reasoning I haue left thee to make pastorall elders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in euery citie Ergo make no elders nor ministers for the countrey or I haue left thee to make elders for euery citie Ergo make iust no more elders then there be cities Sometimes these fellowes would gather by the plurall number their laie elders from hence They holde it pollicie of their church to make more Bishops then one Rotortion where the maintenance will stretch for one towne or citie and why may not our vniuersities and cathedrall churches being colledges of the prophets keepe within them as they do and foster with their maintenance many ministers and pastorall elders to furnish towne and countrey The 6. allegation of the Demonstrator Demonst. Conc. Chalced. Can. 6. Artic. 15 It was ordained that neither deacon nor elder nor other should be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is loosely but in a church citie or towne The wordes are Neminem absolutè Remonstrance id est sine titulo the exception is nisi in ecclesia suae ciuitatis siue possessionis aut in martyrio aut in monasterio There are exceptions ynough to authorise any ordination in our church sith many are ordained for our colledges and cathedrall churches c. Great ods betweene absolutè et dissolutè which is to be let runne at randome Demonstration Conc. Vrban Test Gra. c. tuum distinct 70. as most of you are persons of no church and vicars of the same The 7. allegation of the Demonstrator The ordination that is made without a title let it be voyd This is maruaile you will borrow out of Gratian or out of the Canon lawe Remonstrance drawe cleare demonstration from puddle water vnto which you often compare the Canon lawe I perceiue euery place you can make must serue your turnes yea puddle wharfe Your answere was before with the exceptions afore remembred Besides a title is not alwaies a charge or flocke but an assignation of set maintenance least they should begge cum dedecore clericalis ordinis as the Canons speake The 8. allegation of the Demonstrator Hieronymus ad Nepotianum complained that ministers were ordeined being chosen by no church Demonstration and so went here and there hauing no place There is no such matter to be found in S. Hierom as is here alledged Remonstrance but if Hierom had complained belike hee did not complaine without a lawful cause It is pitie and shame they should wander vp and downe but this would haue argued that absolute ordinations were then vsed yet wee graunt the Canons sauing in some cases doe forbidde them as inconuenient and so this church practiseth if the lawes be followed if not the men are blameable not the lawes The 9. Allegation of the Demonstrator That action which is read to be practised neuer but by Idolaters is vnlawfull Demonstrator To haue wandring officers is so Iudg. 17.8 Ergo vnlawfull This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fight with a shadowe Remonstrance or to wander from the purpose More is in the conclusion of the Syllogisme then in the premisses The question was of allotting Ministers to a place the conclusion is of a wandring apostacie or forsaking his ordination and his place If there be any like Micah for entertaining such or like the wandring Leuite that did goe from Bethlehem Iuda from the better to the worse and goe to dwell as it is in that text where he may finde a place your selues are such hostes and such guestes rather then we For many amongst you are wandring starres and wayfaring mates a life chosen by your selues not imposed The Obiection of the Demonstrator Paul and Barnabas did wander Ergo. Demonstrator Answere The Apostles office and the Euangelistes was to preach the worde and to plant Churches But the order that they left is a president for vs that euery Church should haue their proper officers and that there be no other else where to be founde Bray a foole in a morter hee will not leaue his folly Remonstrance with replie no more will this man his bable nor babbling obiections Paul and Barnabas did not wander as in our behalfe you would seeme to obiect but for the watring and planting of the Churches passed to and fro as any may doe that haue care of many Congregations to visite them or as Saint Paul who confessed solus ego I onely haue care of all Congregations this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or incoherent or a president neuer to be found Euery Church must haue proper officers Ergo there are no other nor ought to be els where any other found Once againe howe prooue those men a negatiue This is to stoppe the encrease of Gods diuine grace This is fine in conceite Your gouerning Elders must be numerus infininitus or indefinitus Ergo Absurditie of the Demonstrator our Pastorall Elders must be numerus finitus a certaine number Why not sans number of those who to Godward are professed The third Chapter The Assertion of the Demonstrator EVery Church officer ought to execute his office Demonstrator and be continually resident on his charge The Demonstrator is too too peremptorie Remonstrance because he comprehendeth neither natural nor legal nor other dispensation by the worde continually But let vs heare the Demonstration The 1. Demonstration A Shepheard hath a flocke continually to feede it The Minister is a Shepheard and his charge a flocke Demonstration Ergo hee ought continually to feede it
Demonstration The office which is needlesse in the Church is vnlawfull Demonstration The Archbishops office is needlesse because the ministerie is perfect without it Eph. 4.11 Ergo. Eph. 4.11 To the Maior This demonstration is rather follie then fallacie Remonstrance the Medium or proofe there is needlesse In deed lesse need of this then of that before Bare neede maketh you demonstrate after this sort your argument is but mistaken It is not à non necessario sed ab independente My answer therefore is Not euery thing seeming needlesse in humane preiudice is foorth with vnlawfull in Gods diuine iudgement To the Minor This is a most lewd affirmation in the Minor that the Archbishops office is needlesse because the ministerie is perfect without it The Demonstrator is as bold as any man and as blind as whosoeuer but boldnesse and blindnesse are the two helpes As for the reason that the ministerie is perfect without it it is an vnperfect reason For as iustly may he say the office of a Christian King is needlesse in the church because the ministerie is perfect without it This is a doubtfull clause to leaue the ministerie in speculation not in action or to consider of the being of the ministerie not of the well being of the same Let this one word serue for your answer if you will be answered The perfectnesse of the ministerie doeth not ouerturne the needfulnesse of gouernement or direction by the Archbishop I dare auouch hee knoweth not wherein an Archbishops office here consisteth That which is needlesse is vnlawfull c. Retortion of the argument The office of Church-Aldermen ouer all men and all maners is needelesse in our Church where a Christian magistracie is established alreadie and because no place of Scripture affirmeth for it Ergo it is vnlawfull in the Church and none but T.C. idest thanklesse curiositie would bring it in place Or this That which is needlesse is vnlawfull All courtes of Record as Chancerie and Common pleass c. shall be found needlesse if the Consistorie of Presbyters and Elders were set vp which is onely needfull or else full of neede in the Church or congregation of the faithfull brethren because they may determine all matters wherein any breach of charitie may be as the Admonitioner saieth Ergo all Courts of Record as Chancerie Common pleas c. by their reason will be found all vnlawfull Thus then we reason out of their owne grounds What office soeuer is needlesse idest is not necessarilie required in the Church the same is vnlawfull The Christian princes supreme gouernment in causes ecclesiasticall if wee beleeue these men is needlesse for the learned discourser who saieth the Church was most flourishing when there was no Christian magistrate T.C. saith no lesse who findeth no difference betweene an heathen and a Christian king touching the matter of intermedling in church gouernment iumping therein with Harding and other papists Ergo by this assertion the princes supreme gouernment is vnlawfull which vnsound and rebellious conclusion very necessarily followeth not only of this assertion but of infinite other their speeches Or thus The office which is needlesse is vnlawfull The hauing of an Eldership in euery congregation is needles for one Eldership in the towne serueth for the whole country belonging to Geneua where neuerthelesse they haue diuers Churches and their seuerall ministers And so in Scotland where there be but few Elderships in comparison of the seuerall congregations yet these Churches were reformed will you say Likewise the hauing of a Doctor in euery congregation and Deacons to be of the Eldership is an office needlesse for they haue them not so in France or Scotland though most of our platformers require both Ergo the hauing of an Eldership or of Doctor or Deacons to be of the Eldership in euery congregation are offices vnlawfull By which examples also appeareth the falshood of the Minor because the ministerie is perfect without those in such places and yet the Demonstrationer will not affirme the Eldership Doctor and Deacon to be needlesse The 4. Demonstration If all giftes for perfecting of the Church needfull be appropriated vnto other ministers Demonstration then is his ministerie vnlawfull But all are appropriated to those foure Ephesians 4. Pastor Doctor Elder and Deacon whereof hee is none Ergo. This Hypotheticall Syllogisme is as bad a Paralogisme as T.C. his simple Syllogisme refuted at large in the defence of the answer to the Admonition Remonstrance pag. 316. I may well call it T.C. his whirlepoole because he drowneth himselfe and his scholers in it Thus Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church which haue all gifts needfull c. But all those functions reckoned of Paul Ephe. 4. 1. Cor. 12 haue the gifts needfull ergo those functions onely are sufficient for the Church As if a man did argue thus Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are contained in the Scripture Absurditie of T.C. and of the Demonstrator But all things in the Aue Maria are contained in the Scripture ergo those things in the Aue Maria are onely sufficient to saluation Or as cunningly after this sort Those only are men which are endued with reason But all the Costerdmongers of London are endued with reason ergo the Costerdmongers of London are the onely men Where the Maior is particular the argumentation of sole particulars and hath no force of reason the Medium or argument hath this word Onely in the Maior cum subiecto and is left out in the Minor Besides all this it concludeth affirmatiuè in the second figure against the lawe of due conclusion finally it lacketh both moode and figure and lacketh no fault To the sequele of the Antecedent The sequele is vntrue for dealing with the Church stocke thēselues say it was appropriate Act. 6. to 7. Deacons yet Act. 11. the collection was sent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for the administration not to such as we call commonly and peculiarly Deacons but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the priests or ministers yet this not vnlawful in them To the Assumption Both sides backe and bellie turne which side you will hereof is a shamelesse vntrueth for God hath not appropriated the gifts to those 4. nor to any other 4. or 5. titles and names of offices in Church but he doeth tie and vntie conferre and bestow the gift on such an office which is fit for the commoditie of the Church in what measure he pleaseth Elders and Deacons are not once mentioned in that text therfore thus I reason If all giftes needfull for perfecting of the Church be appropriated vnto the Ministers mentioned Ephes 4. then the ministerie of Elders and Deacons is vnlawfull much lesse is it needfull for perfecting of the Church But by the Demonstrator and his customers of whom he boroweth all needfull gifts are appropriate to Apostles Euangelists Prophets nowe wholie ceased as they saye and
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance with reply a very barbarisme or nugation for it followeth that they diuided Churches into Churches for the Church alwaies is a Congregation You might haue quoted if you had a quote where the Apostles by constitution did diuide nationall Churches into Diocesses or Diocesses into Parishes The Councell of Nice in very deede appointed to bishops certaine of them their bounds and limits of iurisdiction though sundrie bishoprikes were appointed before In which diuision the diuision of the ciuil state of Rome into Prouinces Diocesses Prefectures De Rep. Rom. c. was for the most part followed as Lazius testifieth The fourth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator IT belongeth to the Church to elect the Officers which Christ would haue placed Demonstration and not to the Patrons c. Therefore that which is practised in the Church of England must returne to Antichrist The practise of this Church is neither of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance false Christ nor of Antichrist but drawne from the purest times of the Primitiue Church For neither in the Apostles times nor any times after that I can reade of is there pregnant proofe to be found that for the choise and ordination presbyteri alicuius of any priest or pastorall elder onely for there were no Lay elders heard of any moe then one bishop was required In deede when a bishop was to be chosen it is often to be founde in the Primitiue Church that the priestes or pastorall elders which for most part then liued in the great cities where bishops Sees were planted though according as the bishops thought good they were sent out into the territorie a dioyning to preach baptize and minister the supper being with the people assembled and often with the Metropolitane and some other bishops direction did nominate whome they thought good to haue chosen for their bishop whome if the people liked they would crie Dignus est iustus est he is well worthie he is a iust man If they liked him not who was named they would with great clamours yea often times with outrages of blowes and murther importune them to another nomination So that there was no scrutinie of suffrages of the people as hauing interest but a tumultuarie proceeding and acclamation or exclamation of the multitude present at such actions Therefore the olde Canons speaking hereof doe vse for the most part but the wordes Testimonij ciuium conscientiae populi of testimonie of Citizens and knowledge of the people with which these elections of bishops onely were made but because they breede great tumults sedition and murders as the ancient Fathers and histories of the Church testifie they were abrogated both by counsell and appointment of Christian Emperours vpon whome by lawe the people in al matters had bestowed their whole right since which time the priests of seuerall Sees in the name of the rest which we cal now the Chapters of Cathedral Churches haue had the election of their bishops being if the Emperour or prince thought good directed to some one speciall man by his nomination In England according to the auncient common law of the land the prince granteth leaue to the Chapter to elect a bishop to the void See which licence is called Conge d'eslire and withall sendeth letters to them nominating him whom her maiestie vpon graue aduise of her honourable counsell iudgeth fit requiring their choise of him The election being made she giueth her roiall assent vnto it requiring the Archbishop to confirme the election if it be dulie canonically made after with two other bishops to consecrate the elect the day and place for confirmation whereof is published a competent time afore that if anie thinke good to propound against the person of the man or forme of election they may be heard After this confirmation followeth the consecration according to the prescription of the booke then is the bishop to doe his homage personallie to her maiestie for his temporall reuenues and after to haue them restored vnto him Now to the temporalties of a bishoprike a Baronrie by law is annexed whereby he is a lord of the parliament Other ministers in the dioecesse are to be examined approoued and ordained by the bishop hee and such other ministers as be present at the ordination laying their hands vpon them And when any is presented to a set place or benefice by the patrone thereof the bishop is to examine his life and learning and to institute him in title thereunto after hee haue approoued of him This course of placing in the title of certaine roumes or benefices grew by these degrees and meanes which will not be amisse also to point at because many that will needs be medling either know it not or are wilfullie ignorant At first as was shewed afore the bishop and all his clergie liued in a kind of communitie in the citie wherof he bare the name of bishop he and they going abroad at certaine most conuenient times to preach and minister the Sacraments in the territorie adioining at what time all Church reuenues of the whole dioecesse whether landes tithes oblations or legacies were in common amongst them but at the distribution of the bishop One fourth part whereof was emploied pro mensa episcopali for the B. hospitalitie another to maintaine those of the Clergie the third for building and repairing the churches of the citie rest of the dioecesse the fourth for redemption of captiues for the poore for other godly vses But when sundry persons partly vpon deuotion and partly the rather induced to haue the nominating of a Minister thereto had built and endued diuers Churches in places farre distant in the countrey abroad so that so many seuerall parishes could not conueniently nor so often be respected by those who attended alwaies about the Bishop sauing at certaine set times and that the former cōmunitie began through multitude of the clergy being for the most part in one place and sundry other inconueniences to bee ouer-troublesome and also enuious then in most parts of the christian world they grew to a diuision of all the church reuenues so that the bishop the clergie that was to remain in the cathedrall church of the chiefe citie and the clergie of the rest of the dioecesse had euery of them their seuerall portions allotted as was thought expedient Out of which euerie of them seuerallie besides their owne maintenance was afterward to defray for the reparation of the fabrikes that were to be vpholden by them to relieue the poore c. as their seuerall abilities should serue In so much as the bishop who first was as a common past our of the whole dioeces as the common law also at this day doth account him and had afore towards the vses aforesaid the common reuenues of the Church in title as a kind of proprietarie himselfe did then at the presentation of the founders or Patrons to whom the Canons gaue
matrimoniall or for preseruation of Churches and Church goods or lastly of punishing faults which the temporall law doth not punish those are either diffamation of a mans neighbours at the sute of some partie or of other faults as blasphemie sorcerie adulterie drunkennesse c. the publike corporall punishment whereof if it bee commuted into pecuniarie to their owne priuate gaine it is not by law warranted but is the personall fault of the man deepely punishable and therfore this Minor is both without apparance of trueth and very opprobrious The seuenth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator OFficers of the Church are to bee ordained by imposition of hands of the Eldership Demonstration The 1. Demonstration As in the Apostles time they were ordained so they must bee still ordained But in the Apostles time they were ordained by laying on of hands c. Ergo they must continually be so ordained To the Maior This word As Remonstrance in the Maior proposition importeth either the whole action of ordination it selfe with the maner or forme or the ceremonie alone vsed in ordaining there is ambiguitie and doubting in this Tell vs first which you vnderstand and then we can tell you after whether euery forme or accidentall ceremonie ought of necessitie to be vsed or refused now which in the ordaining of ecclesiasticall persons was vsed then To the Minor But in the Apostles times c. by the Eldership Act. 6. v. 6. and cap. 13.3 say you Nay imposition of hands cannot be attributed to any eldership there vnlesse you will force a strange interpretation of the text viz. Apostleship to be Eldership Apostles to be vnpreaching elders your elderships now to be as the Apostles were then in the Church for the first mention of Elders viz. ministers is Act. 11. And so all things may bee one Omnia sunt vnum Turne Laitie into Clergie and Clergie into Laitie ouerturne all In like wise no more probabilitie is to bee gathered out of the other place Acts 13.3 There were in Antioch 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Absurditie of the Demonstrator In the Church as it then stood certaine Prophets and teachers as Barnabas and Simeon called Niger and Lucius of Cyrene Manahem and Saul Now as they ministred and fasted to the Lord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiles they preached saieth Chrysostome expounding that place or whiles they ministred vnto or for the Lord. But how followeth it out of this place that because there were Prophets and Doctors in the Church there Ergo there were vnpreaching Elders also though not specificallie named to be there Or these fasted and prayed and laied their hands vpon Barnabas and Saul Ergo other vnpreaching elders also laied their hands you may as iustly conclude They were not there ergo they were there or the elders laied not their hands ergo they laied on their hands But hereof we thus reason against you As in the Apostles times they were ordained so they must bee still ordained In the Apostles ordinations is no one word of ordination by such laie elders that might not minister the word and Sacraments nor in any other pregnant place of Scripture nor euer practised for fifteene hundred yeeres and an halfe in any Christian Church Ergo In ordinations your Elders must haue nothing to doe for it were intollerable presumption where the holy Ghost mentioneth not nor insinuateth any such thing for man to say they were neuerthelesse there What like Elders to yours were at Mathias election Actes 1. at the choise of the seuen Actes 6. where none are named but the Apostles and the rest of the beleeuers At the separating of Paul and Barnabas in this place Actes 13. but foure other Prophets and Doctors at the ordination of so many ministers for sundrie Churches Acts 14. other then Paul and Barnabas the ordainers the ministers then newly ordained and the people for whom they were ordained at Timothies ordination more then Paul Per impositionem manuum mearum as shall appeare In Crete to assist Titus ad Tit. 1. except you will say they had elderships before they had any Elders or yet ministers or before the Churches were planted And againe If ordination must needes as is here concluded continually be made by the eldership thē can no church or congregation newly to be established elect and ordaine their owne ministers and Eldership But in this case you doe attribute this whole action to the people of such congregation ergo by your owne rules all ordinations must not bee continually by the Eldership for if it should your Church gouernment shall neuer haue any beginning The 2. Demonstration Church officers must bee ordained by them who can assure them of their calling Demonstration Onely the eldership can assure 1. Tim. 4.14 Ergo I much muse how the author can terme his booke a Demonstration Remonstrance So many chinkes in one planke argueth vnseasoned timber The conclusion hath onely the Eldership which onely lieth not in the Maior proposition The Demonstration is neither formall nor materiall To the Minor Viz. Onely the Eldership can assure 1. Tim. 4.14 that is no way the purpose of the place as shall easilie appeare Despise not the grace or neglect not the grace which is in thee and was giuen thee by prophesie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With laying on hands of the Eldership Whether you doe vnderstand and expound Neglect not the grace which is in thee and was giuen thee by prophesie that is by diuine oracle and imposition of handes with prayer of other pastorall elders as by speciall occasion of a speciall grace confirmed vnto thee which Beza himselfe doth insinuate and not his creation for the Ministerie Or whether wee vnderstand Despise not c. the grace or gift which is in thee now and was sometime by prophesie conferred vpon thee by a farther confirmation of the laying on or imposition of hands of the function and office of Pastorship and presbyterie which is laied vpon thee as Caluin doth allow rather then to be by any Colledge and officers of the presbyterie It can neuer be vnderstood either in part or in whole of a Laicall presbyterie to assure men of their ordinarie calling in the ministerie for they that cannot conferre the like grace how can they by the imitation hereof assure the calling In those dayes by laying on of hands were often the visible graces of the holy ghost bestowed The fallacie is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Fallacie secundùm figuram dictionis For presbyterie there is not the companie or colledge of ordainers but the ordination or order giuen by one alone principall in his authoritie The figure is Metonymia the signe the imposition of hands for the thing signified At the least this is a foule absurditie Absurditie of the Demonstrator that neuer any was either in the practise of the Apostles Church or succeedingly or in our church assured of his
hath described 1. Tim. 5.17 Ergo There is not so much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any colourable description of Elders in these wordes Remonstrance The place giueth commendation and great maintenance to all pastoral elders that gouerne their flocks wel but honourable commendation of those who with earnestnes labour in the worde So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth your elders haue not any maintenance of your Churches but liue of their craftes and trades and therefore yours cannot be there meant which is spoken specially to establish large maintenaunce by the Church toward the Elders there vnderstood The 5. Demonstration or Allegation There is no Church which can stand without their Eldershippe or Councell Demonstration Ign. ad Tral ep The wordes are Remonstrance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is the Elders or Ministers or Pastorall elders are a senate or fellowship of the Apostles of Christ without it there is no Congregation holie or sacred nor synode of Saintes and so say wee But this is a great distaunce from your Laicall Eldership this is our holie and sacred Conuocation or Chapter-house or whatsoeuer Ecclesiasticall assemblie and meeting It appeareth by sundry places of Ignatius that the Presbyteri hee speaketh of did preach and minister the Sacraments Ergo he meaneth not of yours These whom he meaneth he saith are successors of the Apostles which hitherto I haue not heard any of you challenge for your Elders that be Lay men The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstration Tertul. de bape It belongeth onely to the Bishop to baptise and to the Elder and Deacon vpon the Bishops license I would to God you would as well doe after this golden sentence of Tertull. as you can memoratiuely recite the same Remonstrance the sence and sentence maketh all for vs. Dandi habet ius summus sacerdos id est Episcopus dehinc presbyteri diaconi non tamen sine Episcopi authoritate propter eeclesiae honorem quo saluo salua pax est As the Bishop is a superior minister or priest so Presbyter an inferiour minister or priest for your elders you may go seeke for you permit neither your elder nor deacon to baptize The 7. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Ierō con Lucife Neither elder nor Deacon haue right but vpon commaundement of the Bishop so much as to baptize The words Inde venit vt sine Chrismate Episcopi iussione neque presbyter neque diaconus ius habeant baptizandi That is Remonstrance pastorall elder or priest the wordes immediatly antecedent speake of the authoritie of the Bishop or chiefe priest who doeth authorize other priests vt enim accepit quis ita dare potest He speaketh of Chrisme aswell as of the Bishops licence alluding to a particular custome this cannot serue your turnes for you holde that no Bishop may debarre you of licence to preach or vse your ministery your elders and deacons may not minister the sacraments though they were licenced as your selues thinke The 8. Allegation or Demonstration Elders fell away vpon the ambition of the Teachers Demonstra Amb. 1. Tim. 5. Ambrose saith Synagoga postea ecclesia seniores habuit Remonstrance Ambrose saith that state of the church for all that was tollerable Both the Synagogue and afterward the Church had Elders or Seniors before any Christian magistrate had the preeminence in the Church but no such elders as you doe platforme For these gaue but counsell yours do absolutely gouerne ordeine censure and all things sauing preaching and ministring Sacraments The 9. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Possidon in vita August Valerius the Bishop did contrary to the Apostolicall custome in appoynting Augustine to preach being an elder The wordes are Remonstrance contravsum consuetudinem ecclesiarum Aphricanarum against the vse and custome of the Aphrican churches not of the Orientall Churches where the vse was so A custome particular misliked also by many of the fathers you would make Apostolicall and generall The 10. Allegation or Demonstration After Arrius was conuict of heresie Demonstrat Socr. li. 5. ca. 22. Elders might not preach it was so decreed Caluins quotation is lib. 9. Socrat. tripartitae historiae Remonstrance Alexandriae tantùm institutum fuit whence you borrow this onely at Alexandria this was ordeyned because Arrius had troubled the Church there Is not this curtalling of places an euident signe of the euill conscience you haue if you knowe it or of ignorance ioyned with boldnesse if you know it not and yet alledge it The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Bucer de reg Chri. lib. 1. The number of Elders of euery Church must bee increased according to the multitude of the people Bucer by the words lib. 1. cap. 8. speaketh of Curatorum ecclesiae seniorum Remonstrance that is pastoral elders as the marginall note vnderstandeth the Ministers Ministros ecclesiae sarcire oportere quicquid fuerit neglectum The 12. Allegation or Demonstration Martyr 12. Rom. lamenteth that they were fallen out of the Church Demonstration that the name scant remaineth Martyr citeth S. Ambrose complaint of the want or defect of certaine Elders for aduise Remonstrance who were for a time in some Church the Magistrate being vnchristian but you finde not that they were called Presbyteri as signifying an office which title you giue to yours and the places where Presbyteri be named you apply to them The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Certaine of the people were ioyned with the Pastor in Church-gouernment Demonstration Idem 12. Co. 1. Euen so at this day Remonstran in euery parish are the like assistants to gather and imploy the almes of the Church and for other prouisions The Puritanes know not their owne Church or common wealth and yet the meaning is but of Churches in great cities and Cathedrall The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Demostran Caluin instit li. 4. cap. 3. sect 8. There were Elders in the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He said it is no necessary Demonstration to proue it Remonstrance he can neuer proue that they had iurisdiction or ought to haue of censures of ordinations of lawe making and all other gouernment or that they were Lay men and had no maintenance by the Church or that they were annuall or biennall officers as the Consistorials doe now preach The 15. Allegation or Demonstration D. Whitgift pag. 638. confesseth there were Elders Demonstr Some were Seniors as Ambrose speaketh of in the Church before any Christian magistrate was pro tempore Remonstrance for a stay good aduise in the Church but none of this medley of perpetuity and with such gouernment and authority as is now platted The 16 Allegation or Demonstration If the platforme to Timothie be for al Churches Demonstration then must Elders be in al. 1. Timoth. 6.14 But the first is true Ergo the second This is
answered before cap. 1. not to concerne any pollicie of Elders Remonstrance but to keepe the general commandement of the lawe of the spirite of life they might as well say that the commaundement to drinke no water were meant by that place The holie ghost hath there warily vsed the singuler number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which nowe you woulde make to pertaine to the perpetuitie of euerie thing conteined in that Epistle if it did so yet could it not helpe you for there is no such commandement for anie such Elders in that whole Epistle no nor anie mention by the way of them The 17. Demonstration That which is in euery ministers commission must be in euery congregation Demonstration But the ordination and practise of this office Mat. 28.20 is so or els they ordeined elders without warrant from Christ Ergo they must be in euery congregation Ex nihilo nihil fit Of nothing commeth nothing Remonstrance This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a great space betwene these two go 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make Disciples or teache all nations Ergo make vnpreaching Presbyters in all nations This the Demonstrationer made the Ministers Commission afore and is it nowe the Commission for vnteaching Elders to be ordained in euery place The reason of the Minor is false for neyther made they any such Elders in euery congregation neither doeth their authoritie for ordinations and sundry other points of Church-gourernment depend only vpon that Commission which respected the ministery of the word and Sacraments The 18. Demonstration Where a Bishop must be Demonstration Elders must be A Bishop must be in euery Congregation Ergo Elders This Demonstration is no guest but an ordinarie seruant Remonstrance for this serueth your turne often 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The one of these is no better knowne then the other there must be parish Bishops Ergo parish elders And it followeth not by any coherence any more then this There must bee a Constable in euery towne Ergo 24. Aldermen The 19. Demonstration If the Apostles established one vniforme order in al Churches Demonstration then there must be Elders in euery congregation but the first is true Ergo the second For S. Paul saith thus I teach in all Congregations To the Antecedent This is the fallacie of consequence Remonstrance The Apostles did stablish vniformitie for essentiall points of discipline but left not any policy for Lay elders The consecution of the maior is false Can there be none vniformity except such your Elders were euery where appoynted who indeede were nowhere To the Assumption S. Paul might very well leaue all pointes of wholesome doctrine all good order for the Church but neuer institute the particularities of your discipline The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator God hath giuen soueraigne authoritie ouer the Church to Christian Magistrates Demonstration which these Elders would abridge Answere of the Demonstrator No more then the eldership in Dauids time did abridge Dauids soueraignty ouer all Israel for his gouernment is temporall theirs is spirituall O foolish answere Remonstrance and fond conceite of an imaginable Elderdership in Dauids time who can abide this Master Elders haue spirituall gouernment but Kings and Queenes noursing fathers and mothers of the Church haue but ciuill and temporall gouernement onely ô tempora ô mores or as the learned discourse saith The prince is but a feeling member of the church the heads and chiefe gouernors are the ecclesiasticall Aldermen or presbyterie of the Church That yours abridge the Queenes soueraigntie is a little touched afore and shall more plainlie be shewed when you are at leasure to heare The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration Gualt 1. Cor. 5. denieth the presbyterie to be needfull vnder a christian magistrate Answer of the Demonstrator Gualter denieth excommunication to be lawfull vnder a Christian magistrate He is as partiall as D. Whitgift It may be Gualter and others may denie it to be of the essence of a Church or rash excommunication Remonstrance with reply then the which nothing is more Anabaptisticall or where hope of repentance is he is not partiall nor he that taketh part in a good cause As for Gualters opinion if hee vtterly denie excommunication Pro Coelio Nolo cuiusquam fortis illustris viri vel minimum erratum cum maxima laude coniungere But it is vntrue to say he simplie denieth it or if hee did erre herein doth he therefore erre in the other But if you can so soone shake off Gualter in this point for his errout as you fansie in the other then may we also reiect Caluin in a matter whereof he was first father for his error against the lawfull supremacie of Christian princes in causes ecclesiasticall The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration The Prince hath the authoritie which the Elders had Answer That is no truer then to say the Prince hath authoritie to preach which he must see done The Eldership you say may make ecclesiasticall lawes Remonstrance with replie may censure and excommunicate In taking these from the Prince to be done by her Delegates doe you not denie her Supremacie as for any ordaining shee may euen as well as your Eldership doe it but God forbid shee should claime it as they very absurdly doe HIErgo by this grosse position the prince must waite in euery place to see the elderships their dueties done but it is certaine Ex quolibet sequitur quidlibet in maintaining this imagination as for the Prince to see it done by your Elderships is a seruilitie and no soueraigntie especially when you say and T.C. before you that the princes must subiect them selues and submit their scepters and throwe downe their crownes before the Church and for the Church you roundly interprete the Presbyterie Absurditie of the Demonstrator Princes must lieprostrate to the Presbyterie And if your Elderships in deede haue this authoritie by their right in causes ecclesiasticall which the Prince must but see done then doe not they slaunder you which say you giue to the Prince potestatem facti non iuris and so yeelde her iust as large a supremacie as the Papistes doe Demonstrations to proue the eldershippe necessarie vnder Christian princes as in the Apostles time The 1. Demonstration The lesse able the ministers are to direct in godlines Demonstration the more neede they haue of Elders but ministers nowe vnder Christian magistrates are lesse able by reason of ease and peace Ergo. To the Maior Nay the more neede they haue of preachers and labourers in the haruest Remonstrance the more neede of discreete ouerseers not those pragmaticall busie-body elders To the Minor Doe not say that Salomon forbiddeth you say the dayes are worser nowe rather then the dayes of olde for that were a foolish thing Our dayes are blessed dayes blesse God for them This fallacie is secundùm non causam vt
causam The Iudges and Iustices are lesse able to execute the lawes at full by reason of mens insolencie and custome of offences Absurditie of the Demonstrator Ergo shall it followe that the Parliament must erect some other new kinde of magistracie The consequencie is Ergo they must execute the lawes with more seueritie If the ministers be not able to direct in godlines it is but a poore helpe they are like to haue of your Elders for such direction The 2. Demonstration If Christian magistrates must maintaine the order set downe by 1. Cor. 12.8 Demonstration v. then Elders must bee vnder a Christian magistrate but they are c. Ergo 49. Esai 23. You haue bene answered and reanswered againe for that allegation of text 1. Cor. 12.8 v. Remonstrance that you haue no aduantage for your elders to bee deduced from that text but see see howe the elder would obteine the title of a Christian magistrate As for the argument out of Esai 49. ca. 23. v. Kings Queenes they shall worship thee with their faces towards the earth Absurditie of the Demonstrat Ergo great homage belike shal be done to the eldership the rather because it shrowdeth it selfe vnder the appellation of a Christian magistrate The 3. Demonstration If the rule of Christ Dic Ecclesiae cannot be obserued without elders Demonstration then may they bee vnder a Christian magistrate but the former is true Ergo the latter To the Assumption By the Church is meant the Senate of ministers and elders Remonstrance saith the Demonstrator This is newe interpretation of dic Ecclesiae this were newes in Christendome a man cannot informe the Church of a matter vnlesse he go to the Aldermen and ministers of euery particular Church Dic Ecclesiae with Chrisostome Chrisostome 61. Hom. super Matth. is tell the presidents and gouernours and prelates of the Church Praesulibus scilicet praesidentibus If none haue neede to tell the elders then the rule of dic Ecclesiae tell the Church may bee kept without them but no man hauing ordinarie and ecclesiasticall lawfull magistrates neede to runne to the laicall elders Ergo for ought that I knowe the rule may be kept without them The 4. Demonstration If the whole gouernment of the Church be described to Titus and Timothie to be obserued to the end then there must be elders vnder a Christian magistrate Demonstration but the first is true Ergo the second 1. Tim. 6.14 v. To the Antecedent I denie the sequell of the Antecedent Remonstrance for all the descriptions there yet there are no elders If you meane the whole and sole gouernment of the Church to bee described I denie the whole Antecedent for the deaconship of women is but a temporarie and no perpetual thing which is there described so you are once againe to seeke for your elders To the Assumption The ecclesiasticall gouernment is described not in specie but in genere and so it is prescribed The 5. Demonstration Demonstration Where sinne is most outragious there is need of all helpers to punish sinne c. so it is vnder a Christian magistrate Ergo need of Elders There needeth no new magistracie nor ministerie in the church Remonstrance but the ciuill and ecclesiasticall helpe that alreadie is This is but a base and accidentall originall and birth of elders Ex malis moribus nascuntur bonae leges Because there are inordinate men we must of pure needs haue these ignoble elders to correct them The thirteenth Chapter Assertion THere must be Deacons who must only receiue and distribute the liberalitie of the Saints Demonstration not intermeddle with the ministerie The 1. Demonstration That wherein Stephen and the rest were employed is the office of a Deacon but they were only for the poore Acts 6.4 Ergo the office of a Deacon is only for the poore To the Minor The Deacons serued occasionally by reason of the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance murmuring for reliefe of the poore but principally they serued for attendance and ease of the ministerie and distribution to the poore Not onely therefore for the poore They were mensarum viduarum ministri saith S. Hierom at which feasts it is knowen the communion was celebrated The 2. Demonstration That office which the Apostle maketh distinct Demonstration may not be mingled But Rom. 12. distributing in simplicitie is so Ergo The Maior lacketh a word perpetually distinct The Minor is false Remonstrance the reason holdeth not frō distinct vertues to offices Let my reason bend against you Either all those or some of those or none of those are distinct If all why cause you not seuerall offices out of all None you will not say That were to gainsay you selues If some are and some are not shew by some demonstration and not by allegation which are and which are not Why to distribute is perpetuall and distinct why to shewe mercie is not perpetuall why a distributer is better then a shewer of mercie may no man that distributeth vse simplicitie lest he incroch vpon the Deacons office The 3. Demonstration That which the Apostles found themselues insufficient for Demonstration that no man can nowe discharge but they were insufficient for the Ministerie of the word and ministration to the poore Act. 6.2 ergo The Maior is false Remonstrance The Apostles hauing the generall care to plant Churches in all the worlde might be vnmeete and so vnfit to serue the tables of the widowes of the Greekes and Hebrewes after the Church so mightily increased and yet some men now for a narrowerprecinct be able both to preach and to doe the like sith the seuering of those two offices in the Apostles time which is not clearely demonstrated by you is not to make them seuerall for all succeeding times The Elders or Ministers after the seuen were chosen dealt with the Church stocke Act. 11. and yet our bishops or ministers claime not this care from the Deacons To the Minor The worde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is not meete they doe not say we are insufficient we may deriue the care vpon others hauing extraordinarie affaires to doe for the whole Church They were able to doe it but it was vnmeete for them to bee in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 daily ministration It is vnmeete for a king to be a common souldier and yet he not insufficient to beare armes The argument doth holde he is insufficient ergo vnmeete è contrario the conuersion is not good The 4. Demonstration If the Ministeries of the worde be perfect without the Deacon Demonstration then he may not intermeddle in preaching of the worde where there is no neede of him but it is so Ephes 4.11 v. ergo Out of this fabulous conditional proposition If c. it followeth Remonstrance there are diuersities of ministeries of the worde and all
himselfe such applause for writing of it glorifieth himselfe as if he were riding vpon the Cherubins with Luciferian pride or as if he were to draw downe as the Dragons taile all the starres in the firmament consent of scriptures Councils Fathers old and new onely to giue light to the cause in handling And concerning other mens bookes that haue oppugned the cause he speaketh scornefully and disdainfully as of the lord Archbishop and Deane of Sarum their bookes whose learned trauailes neither T. C. W. T. I. V. nor any ecclesiasticall discipliner of them all are able to confute vnlesse to raile in all their writings and snatch at one word in 40. leaues bee to answere a booke whose vertue notwithstanding shall shine when your canckred malice shall bee dead Touching that most reuerend Prelate you and your complices may in this licentious and outragious world speake pleasurablie Neuer yet good man spake but honour of him whom her Maiestie hath graciously vouchsafed vnder her to exercise Christian iurisdiction and authoritie whose Primacie is humilitie who is for his vertue no lesse honoured then loued whose learning angreth you vnto whom if you will make answere you must studie for more learning I am verily perswaded that as God in all ages raised excellent men instruments of his glorie to confute and banish out of the Church heresie as Athanasius against the Arrians Augustine against the Donatists Augustine and Hierome against the Pelagians in former times In our latter times bishop Iewell against the false Catholikes and Semipelagians so God hath stirred vp this learned man against the false brethren and Aerians of our time to hammer and beate downe the schisme and singularitie of Puritanes And therefore I doe humbly thanke God that it hath pleased his glorious maiestie in heauen and her excellent maiestie here on earth to reserue him to these times I speake it in the feare of God had not her Maiesties principall spirite of wisedome illumined with Gods trueth together with the Heroicall prudent spirites of certaine honorable personages and industrious learned men affecting a prouident care of the posteritie of the Church patronized this Church-discipline your priuate spirites of new-fangled discipline happily had more preuailed against these godly and religious proceedings in the Church nay to the vtter remoouing of the Gospell by such confusion and Anarchie Imagine that the externall face of that Church where you might see so many thousand Superintendents so many Elderships aduanced in or aboue the Church to make orders and to censure at pleasure where the people giue voices the Laitie lay on handes the maiestie of the Prince excluded from all swaie in the presbyterie all antiquitie forlorne all Councils vtterly repealed doctrine deuided from exhortation Laie-men Deacons of the Church parish bishops parrot preachers the Vniuersities disgraced of the priuiledge of granting degrees Cathedrall Churches by greedie wolues spoiled all courtes of Iustice ouerthrowen or impaired by the Consistoriall court of Elders and as it were all the trees of the garden of Eden plucked vp to implant Sambucus the faire goodly Elders or Elder tree Or els what may be the fantasie or imaginarie forme of this reformation in matters of Ecclesiasticall gouernment They themselues skill not or when you haue supplanted or ouerturned or turned out those Ecclesiasticall Senators and gouernours which we haue whence shall the supplie bee of able gouernours from beyond the seas that is impossibilitie From your selues that is matter of difficultie From vs againe that were egregious and ridiculous follie Might it not fare with vs as it sometimes did with the Commons of the Citie of Capua the Commons bare a deadly hate to the magistrates and gouernours of the Citie Vpon a time the councell of the Citie being in consultation of their affaires one Pacunius as Liuie writeth Homo vsus malis artibus he was not the best man maketh an insurrection with the Commons and suddenly shutteth all the Magistrates into one place and with sufficient garrison keepeth the place and held them all as prisoners within giueth farther this counsell to the Commons to draw them foorth one by one and to put euery one to death and to put others in their places to create new and better gouernours of the Citie This aduise pleased them well He commaundeth in order the first to be drawen foorth to execution as a man woorthie of death euery base and tumultuarie varlet crieth out he is woorthie of an hundred deaths let him bee shortened by the shoulders The noble Senator whiles he is to lay downe his necke vpon the blocke Pacuuius as chiefe speaker pawseth on the matter Sirs before wee put this man to death it were good we did nominate another to occupie his place this noble Citie may not stand without a Senate That counsell also seemeth pleasing vnto them they streight proceed on to the nomination and election of a Senatour One man nameth one that man nameth another each man as he best fansieth maketh a seuerall nomination no sooner any man is named but a 1000. exceptions are taken to the partie the person named is thought vnwoorthy either for basenesse of his parentage or vilenesse of his trade or meanenesse of his fortunes or lacke of this or lacke of that the sedition thereupon is dissolued of it selfe the election of a new set of officers is interrupted euery one plainly seeth his owne follie and temeritie Semblablie if like power were giuen as in the Preface of your Demonstration you pray for which God forbid to shut vp into a corner our Reuerend Fathers and Ecclesiasticall magistracie and you readie vpon the change to transforme our Bishops into your Surueillants or ouerwatchers our Conuocations and Chapters into your maruelous Classicall conferences and Synodes all the whole Hierarchie of the Church into your Tetrarchie of Doctor Pastor Elder and Deacon for if you did affect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to haue no superioritie then were you farre worse then the Capuans If I say your mortall or immortall hatred against the state ecclesiasticall caried you to extinguish this order established in the Church alreadie blessed God how would you proceed to the choice of a new Senate Ecclesiasticall and their inuestiture whiles a man might heare you say of the new Doctor or Pastor Elder or Deacon This man hath zeale but no learning that man learning but no zeale the other neither zeale nor learning such a man is factious and full of deadly poison he a base crafts-man or artisan another is auaricious and would carie away our bag T. C. will ouertoppe all or loueth the preheminences as Diotrephes each man taking exception vnto other Doe ye not foresee or rather doe you not see as in a glasse the image or bodily shape of the imagined state which you so impetuouslie striue for and we striue against and striue will in a good cause vnto the death Or what need we striue the strife will be with and within your selues when
reueiled as you vnderstand reueiled in the word It is vtterly vntrue whether you vnderstand matter of externall orders and circumstance or for the proportionating of externall decencie of euery part and parcell it is a matter of infinitie to find all determined particularly by the worde But to beate their owne weapon about their owne pate I make this Dilemma Euery office and action in our Church gouernment Retortion is either from heauen or from earth if from earth then all of that minde were earthly minded men from the primitiue Church downeward vnto vs and from vs vpward vnto them whereby fall into your condemnation all they whom you deeme to haue abused the same or not vsed the same sith it is cleare by Ecclesiasticall historie they for the most part vsed the same Church discipline which wee doe If from heauen how dare you withstand the same It is hard to kicke agaynst the pricke your contradiction cannot long stand agaynst it least you perish in the same The 12. Demonstration If God continued in regard of the substance Demonstration the Church administration as well as the things to be administred then is the forme of discipline described in the worde but the former is true for priests Pastours for teaching Leuites or Doctors of the lawe Teachers for rulers of the Synagogue Elders for Leuiticall lookers to the treasurie Deacons for Sanedrim the Eldership Ergo This Demonstration is Demonstratio à causa remota Remonstrance a demonstrate seldome vsed the resolution or Analysis is this If God from all succeeding ages continued as well the forme as the matter in respect of the substance then c. To the Antecedent This phrase of speach in respect of the substance emplyeth a contradiction to the sequele of the Antecedent for it commeth to this summe If God hath continued the whole discipline in respect of the essentiall partes of discipline then is the frame of accidentall pointes of discipline and externall pollicie of the Church continued therewith which Antecedent with the consequence is starke naught As if a man did reason thus hee might reason also as well Absurditie If God hath continued in regard of the substance the propagation of Adams posteritie by enduing man with an humaine bodie and infusing into man a reasonable soule then hath he endued all men alike with semblable endowment of bodie and soule As if God did garnish euerie man alike with reason and religion in the intellectuall soule or complexionate alike the naturall bodie which is vnited to the soule Nothing so like as man vnto God for he made man to the likenesse of himselfe nothing so dislike as man vnto man man in honor vnderstood not but became like to the brute beast Psal 49. and yet in regard of the substance God continueth the vnchangeable tenor of the race of man To the Assumption The assumption beggerlie beggeth that which is in question drawing a proportion of that which is not Non entis nullae qualitates Where can you euer prooue the correspondence or one word of Scripture for the maintenance of this videlicet That Pastor answereth vnto priest sith with you pastorall charge is exhortation Or Doctor of the lawe or teaching Leuite for one of your Doctors which is a bare teacher vsing explication and refusing application or a simple catechiste whereas Saint Paul doctor gentium was a full minister Or for Leuiticall lookers to the treasurie Deacons because they looke to finger treasure you will make it a corporall office but wee withall some ministerie about the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as amongst the Apostles after the expiration of that seruice at Ierusalem the primitiue Deacons did Or for Iewish 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rulers of the Synagogue Elders to come in place sith that was a canker of corruption that crept in amongest them Or for Sanedrim Eldership sith no man can exactly number the time when it first came in Sith it was a deprauation of a better thing but dealing with all ciuill causes sith that was no holy nor sacred pres byterie which we doe holde all our Synodes and solemne Conuocations to be The Idaea of this discipline is a hote Meteor inuisible not hanging in any region of the aire The difference of this Sanedrim from the olde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the imagination vpon this is Diametri ad latus incommensurable proportion the Identitie is a contrarietie in sight the vse of this discipline is a nullitie in deede But thus we retort the argument vpon them If God continued in regarde of the substance Retortion the church administration vnder the Gospell which was vnder the lawe then are there degrees of superioritie and authoritie in persons ecclesiasticall one ouer another for the priestes were aboue the Leuites and the high priests aboue all the priests of that nation in so much as he that willfullie disobeied his iudgement was to die the death But our Demonstrationer and his customer of whom he borowes it say vpon their credites the former is true ergo Superioritie in the state ecclesiasticall is continued by God vnder the Gospell and therefore not to be discontinued as Antichristian The 13. Demonstration Euerie wise king that is carefull for his subiects Demonstration setteth downe lawes but Christ is a wise king ergo a certaine forme of gouernment The second demonstration was of an householder Remonstrance this is the 13. of a king this is to parabolize not to demonstrate You cannot hence draw a consequence but inconsequentlie conclude because Christ is a king Ergo hee is bound to set downe expresse lawes for euery indiuiduall point of gouernement that may happen for no wise king doeth so especiallie where the whole pollicie which is by him continued is set downe afore as you beare vs in hand in your 12. Demonstration that the whole substance of the pollicie vnder the law is continued vnder the Gospell True it is for the inward and spirituall worship all is described in the worde and prescribed vnto vs. As for euery externall matter of dependaunce it ought rightly to be deduced from the word and reduced to the touchstone of the worde againe regard being had to the seuerall circumstances of time persons c. Me thinkes if you would haue framed an argument the consequence should bee thus Euerie wise king is carefull c. Ergo he barreth all wranglers to make false constructions and collections of his lawes But Christ is an euerlasting king and hath an euerlasting trueth concluded in the tables of his lawes Ergo none of his subiectes may call that lawe which is not lawe nor of the volume and bodie of his lawe or call that sole and an eternall trueth which is a sole and eternall lie as your formall gouernement partie-coloured coate of Laitie and Clergie linsey wolsey discipline or vncertaine forme of gouernment The 14. Demonstration That which the Ministers must teach the people to
Christ for externall policie of the Church and to bee constituted for mere humaine policie Vide Sarau lib. 1. de diuersis grad minist This conclusion therefore driueth the dust and winde of their folly into their owne eyes God and christian policie ordeyneth all ministers Ergo all ministers haue the same efficient Or God and christian policie ordeyneth all ministers God and christian policy are not diuerse efficients as this diuerse man doeth dreame but subordinate for all christian policy is the good gift of God and therefore no efficient absolute of it selfe but effected by God The 2. Demonstration A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things Demonstration ministers of the word and the LL. BB. haue diuerse formes as their ordinacion sith one L.B. may ordeine a minister but there must be three to ordeine one of them Ergo To the Maior Whether you meane accidentall forme or substanciall Remonstrance it is not euer true viz. diuerse formes make diuers things you know the olde sayde saw Ouorum inter se similitudo Nothing so like as an egge to an egge Nothing so like as Hypocrates two twinnes which in specie were not different things yet the one was not the other Againe diuerse formes are in any thing as Trigonus in Tetragono the one included in the other or where the one is ordeyned for the complement and perfection of the other 2. physic Homo prius viuit vitam plantae deinde bruti postremò hominis To the Minor The ministers and the LL. BB. haue one essentiall forme in their ordinacion to the ministerie as in giuing them the ministeriall charge of the word the administration of the sacraments which is his commission for the ministery The forme is all one the consecration of a B. which is a commission for superiour authoritie in ordinacions and iurisdictions with the censures or whatsoeuer else is annexed thereunto is neuer a deale the more for the presence of three any newe or straunge ordiancion of a ministery For accidens non mutat speciem subiecti yet is it such as if we read al the old fathers counsels and other antiquitie who were like to know best in what sort the apostles planted established churches ye shal neuer find aboue one B. required at the ordination of any presbyter a priest or minister but 2. BB. at least and the Metropolitane at the consecration of a B. according to which number our booke of ordination in that behalfe was framed it may be gathered from the like ordination of Paul and Barnabas in the thirteenth of the Acts the one of which was an apostle the other vir apostolicus before from which example I reason thus Either this new ordination of Paul by the prophets and doctors of Antioch gaue him a new and diuerse ministerie from his former so that he continued not an Apostle still or else by this accession no such alteration is made But he continued an apostle still ergo by this accession of ordination or function no such diuersitie was made And consequently an accession of function or authoritie vnto our BB. by their consecration maketh them not cease to be ministers of the worde still which is contradictorie to their maior and therefore that vntrue But to pommell them about the pates with their owne swordes thus againe I may reason A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things Ministers and Elders in a church not yet established must bee chosen and ordeyned by the whole church but in a church established by the presbitery alone as their owne platformers describe which two bee diuers formes and diuerse members of ordeiners ergo they who be chosen and ordeyned after the first manner haue a diuerse ministery and eldershippe from such as be of the latter making and consequently the first being of another kinde cannot choose or ordeine any of the second sort and so shall their newe discipline be nipped in the head and stand after possibilitie of issue extinct Or thus A diuerse forme maketh diuerse things All our new discipliners sauing the church of Scotland which thinketh it a needelesse abrogated ceremony in ordination of elders doe necessarily require and vse imposition of hands ergo the ministers of Scotland haue a seuerall function and ministery from all reformed churches besides Or reason for your selues and reason thus Mixt formes put together make either no thing quia species cum specie non copulatur c. or a mingle mangle Retortion of their argument erratum naturae a monstruous thing The newe manner and guise of ordination by combining laitie and clergie is not actus purus but a compound and mixt forme ergo such ordination by the imposing of handes of laitie and clergie maketh their ministerie either a nullitie or a monstruous thing The 3. Demonstration Members of one diuision are distinct one from another Demonstration The L.BB. and ordinarie ministers are members of one diuision for the ministers are diuided into the Rulers and ruled Ergo To the Maior The axiome is Remonstrance Membra vnius diuisionis contra distinguuntur de se inuicem non predicantur are not verifiable one of another As a man is not an horse prudence is not fortitude fortitude is not prudence howbeit they are concident in vno subiecto as temperance and prudence in one Scipio Secondarily conueniunt in aliquo superiori meete and concurre in one generall or vniuersall a man and beast in one liuing creature This is T.C. ouersight See the defense of the answere to the admonition 203. pa. To the Minor The Minor we distinguish The Ministers are not oppositiuely distinguished but relatiuely Or the diuision is of the common of more into the common of the lesse They are not of diuers predicaments The argument to be framed is thus Euery B. is not an inferiour minister ergo euery inferiour minister is not a B. in or out of his parish viz. a parish B. which these men craue The fallacie is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Absurditie of the Demonstrator It is absurd to argue thus The BB. and other inferiour ministers are according to superioritie and inferiority of order distinct ergo altogether and in euery respect distinct Or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the worde that importeth ministers aswel as deacons or ministers are diuided into BB. and priests ergo BB. are not priests Or thus Their officers ecclesiasticall are diuided into pastores doctores presbyteros et diaconos ergo Pastores non sunt presbyteri et per consequens non sunt de presbyterio Pastours are none Elders and therefore are not of the Eldership The 4. Demonstration The thing that haue diuerse effects are diuers in themselues one from another Demonstration The LL.BB. and other ministers haue diuerse effects The one effecteth gouernment the other subiection Ergo To the Maior What a confident Demonstration call you this An 100. Remonstrance Instances to one thing Eaedem causae sunt interimentes quae efficientes
to Pastors and Doctors which onely remaine Ergo Elders and Deacons are both needlesse and vnlawfull neither will their old sillie shift shroud them viz. that Ministers of the word are there only meant First because no such distinction is there made or to be collected Vbi lex non distinguit nec nos debemus and they should least of all so gather who reason in all matters negatiuely out of Scriptures for either it must teach this distinction or else it is no good way that is taught Secondly for that Elders Deacons either are contained vnder some of these or else they haue no gifts or blessings from Christ annexed to their callings for that those are the gifts which Christ ascending gaue to his Church Thirdly because those officers mentioned Ephes 4. are giuen as sufficient of Christ not onely for the worke of the Ministerie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but for the gathering together of the Saints and building of the bodie of the Church two speciall effects if we should beleeue them of their presbyteries then what giftes will remaine and to what end which may be bestowed on their Elders and Deacons all that Christ gaue as themselues speake being appropriate and taken vp afore by others Or thus If all such gifts for the worke of the ministerie c. bee appropriate to Pastors and Doctors which still remaine then are the gifts peculiar to Apostles Euangelists and Prophets either ceased with them because seuerall functions they say haue alwayes seuerall and peculiar giftes è conuerso so that Pastors and Doctors shall not haue any gifts which any of the other three had or if this be absurd because Christ hath giuen them all to his Church as is there testified vntill we all meete together in the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfect man and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ which shall not bee till the consummation of all things therefore setting aside some extraordinarie points that were personall to some few in those times all these functions and offices are ordinarie and remaine still in the Church whatsoeuer some writers say to the contrarie albeit through the great diuersitie of the measure of gifts it be difficult to set downe certainly in all times what offices doe answer vnto which of euery of them But forsomuch as the consent of all ancient writers making bishops both a diuine institution sauing onely Hierome in two places being thereby also contrary to himselfe else-where and successors of the Apostles for the planting of sundrie Churches at first or establishing and gouerning Churches alreadie planted concurreth with the vniforme practise of all the Churches in the world from the Apostles time downeward and is not contraried by the worde therefore I mustneedes with that incomparable man Zanchus iudge their institution and office to bee of the holy Ghost Zanchus in confess as succeeding therein the Apostles As for an Archbishop he is a bishop of his seuerall dioecesse yet chiefe amongst many of a prouince for better direction of matters of order and for iustice vpon appellations which being but an accident maketh no seuerall kind of office therefore that addition to the Minor is vntrue whereof he is none because in all those offices the greater includeth the lesse and a bishop is both a successour of the Apostles and also a pastour or minister he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as S. Peter although in order chiefe Apostle yet a fellow elder in the lord For teaching and feeding to vse Saint Hieromes wordes Vt vnus idémque sit paster ouium magister hominum Ephes 4. one and the same man may bee a pastour amongst his sheepe and a Doctour amongst men Note the feature of this deformed argument If God hath giuen all sense and intelligence to T.C. and the Demonstrator which are but two men Absurdities of the Demonstrator which he is lead vnto by ignorance of All collectiue and All distributiue All the world besides are sencelesse and witlesse men If the lord hath put the spirite of wisedome and cunning into Bezaleel and Aholiab By this collection of the Demonstrator all the rest after are vnskilfull and vncunning men If God gaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnem fidem to his 12. Apostles whereof Paul was none being borne out of due time Ergo Paul the Apostle had no faith The 5. Demonstration That office is vnlawfull which none may lawfully bestow Demonstration But none may lawfully bestow the office of the Archbishop because none can giue new gifts to adorne it withall Ergo vnlawfull To the Maior By this rule you may take exception to Moses Remonstrance and to S. Iohn Baptist who tooke not their office from man but from God Your Maior had bene true if the ground of it were Nemo sibi arroget honorem vnlesse he be called by God or by the ordinance of man vnderneath God To the Minor This is not onely vnreasonable but treasonable because the Queenes maiestie doth and ought to giue and bestow the office of the Archbishop vnto which office no extraordinarie but ordinarie gifts are belonging None can bestow saieth the Demonstrator the office of an Archbishop because he can giue no new gifts to garnish it withall Ergo according vnto him some may bestow the office of an Archbishop who is able to giue new gifts to adorne it withall But I would gladly for my instruction learn how they prooue the contradictorie Proposition vnto this viz. None can bestow an office of gouernment in charge vnlesse he giue new giftes to beautifie it withall or that office which holy Synode and Parliament doth allowe none can bestow As if the substance could not be without changeable Accidents and alterable qualities belonging vnto it Absurditie of the Demonstrator as if no man can bestow a new mantell vnlesse hee giue new buttons together with the mantell or none can bestow a clokebag on the maker of these woorthie Demonstrations vnlesse he giue new strings to tie both ends withall Thus I retort it vpon them That office which none may lawfully bestow is vnlawfull The office of their Pastors Doctors Elders and Deacons none can lawfully bestow because as they reason None can giue new giftes to adorne them withall more then they had afore their ordinations Ergo by this their owne position all those are vnlawfull If they answere God hath bestowed giftes on these offices alreadie wee replie that so hee hath giuen to Apostles and vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernements in the Church Rom. 12. a matter wherein Bishops and Archbishops are especially bestowed and yet as I haue shewed afore they must by their owne collection pull their Elders and Deacons out of that ranke for they are not once mentioned where the gifts are sayd to be giuen Eph. 4. but come cleane after the dole The 6. Demonstration If the office of an Archbishop be lawfull
Demonstration it is either in respect of his excellencie aboue other men or the place whereof he is aboue other places But neither of these haue euer bene or hereafter can be ergo You might haue remembred the old rule Remonstrance that from insufficient enumeration of the parts or of the causes the argument doth not hold or this fallacie is of the consequent as saieth Aristotle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when you mistake the cause The lawfulnesse of his office is in regard of his superioritie grounded on the word of God and in respect of his authoritie wherewith he is put in trust by the prince and Parliament But I answere thus If the office of the seignorie be lawfull it is either in respect of the excellencie of the men or of the most illustrious and celebrated place not the first for an Artisan elder is as good and substantiall an elder as any Earle or honourable man and by their owne platforme he must sit cheeke by ioll by the noblest Erle or counseller of the land Neither the second for no place is better or worse vnto them who seeke for equalitie Non locus virum sed vir locum honestat The place giueth not credite to the man but the man to the place ergo the seignorie is not lawfull in respect of the man or place and consequently hath none authoritie or gouernment The 1. Allegation Caluin lib. 4. Institut cap. 11. sect 7. Demonstration Beza in the booke of diuorcements speaketh against iurisdiction of bishops and others substitute officers If you alleage new writers one for one Remonstrance we haue an Oliuer for a Rowland if you alleage two wee can produce twise so many Bullinger and Musculus Hemingius Gualter and Zanchus c. But our meaning is not to muster authorities or recite the names of authors Pauperis est numer are pecus Goe rather to the things then names Caluins wordes are against the papists Iurisdictionem suam spiritualem iactant Romanenses Hee alloweth in his institutions Patriarkes Archbishops and bishops in the primitiue Church Shew any impietie in the offices of ours more then in those Beza speaketh against their dealings in those causes that know more in such causes any one of them then 20. of his Assistants in Eldership but if you alleage the onely fathers and begetters of presbyteries for them we will set Ridley and Iewell for bishops as learned as these in all respects and as godly The 2. Allegation Peter Martyr vpon the 13. to the Romanes Demonstration speaketh agaynst ciuill Iurisdiction in Bishops and by the same reason condemneth it in their substitutes Peter Martyr speaketh not against any iurisdiction Remonstrance which is a furtherance but popish iurisdiction which is a hinderance to the Gospell But whatsoeuer Peter Martyr saith we say this to you Bishops in respect they are bishops in England haue no ciuill iurisdiction for the distinction of ciuill and ecclesiasticall matters is more priciselie and vpon greater penalties here retained then else-where in all Christendome If it bee said some matters they handle bee ciuill that are called ecclesiasticall wee aske whether oeconomicall matters bee not a part of ciuill wherein they are as husbandly nay niggardly as any and further demaund a rule out of Gods word of them that vrge this as a sinne whereby to know a specificall difference betweene ciuill and Ecclesiasticall causes They cannot say because some of those which Ecclesiasticall courtes here handle bee accounted else-where ciuill therefore they may not be here Ecclesiasticall for of the contrary some matters here mere ciuill are else-where holden Ecclesiasticall As for example in Geneua and Scotland they inflict censures on those which for ciuill enormious crimes the magistrat hath punished or pardoned as felons manslears such like and all their presbyteries euen that among the Englishmen at Middleborough vse to deale with qualifiyng of forfeitures of bonds and accounts betweene hard masters and their prentises and other such Chancerie matters much more therefore those may iustly be accounted ecclesiastical which the law ciuill magistrate do put ouer to ecclesiastical mē better thē those which being in truth mere ciuil are intruded vpō the presbyteries Causes beneficial viz. for titles and maintenance of Ministers causes matrimonial diffamatorie with breach of charitie where none action lieth in ciuill Courts punishment of sinnes not punishable by the ciuil Magistrate and of reparations of churches churchyards which are all the heads of matters that bishops may hādle sauing testamentarie you wil I hope allow to be Ecclesiastical As for testamentary causes euen at the common law of this land they haue bene alwaies made Ecclesiasticall both because that lawe hath litle direction in those causes but such as is borrowed from the ciuill and Ecclesiastical lawes and for that mens last wils at least were wont do conteine sundrie demises for Churches orphanes poore captiues and such like good vses whereof the Church had the fourth part and wherein Bishops are intended to be most carefull to minister right indifferently to all for performance of the deads will Any iurisdiction ciuill which Bishops or some Ecclesiasticall persons haue is not claimed by them as due to their functions but imposed by the Prince as vpon subiects seruiceable for the Realme and for a credite to their places as Counseller Ambassador Iustice of the Peace c. For seeing they are subiects freemen and citizens of the Common-wealth besides their ministerie of the Church I would knowe whether they owe not this dutie being imposed on them vnto the Common-wealth and their Prince But we shall not I trust neede to perswade much with these men for they are not so squemish of ciuill honor and function as they would then seeme whiles their malignant eies are onely fastened vpon Bishops For where they haue sway neither prince nor Magistrate shall proclaime feast or fast treate of league peace or warre with any Prince nor make any ordinance without their aduise * The example of the reuerend learned man they will haue Deputies of the Churches in Parliament when they haue shut out Bishops and they thrust their Elders and Ministers vpon Kings to sitte with their other Counsellors as was not long since practised Is any matter most ciuil euen almost of least moment determined at Geneua without Beza insomuch as when troubles increase he omitteth his readings and preachings sundry times Is he not of the counsell of 60. in that state was not Villiers Secretarie of estate to the Prince of Orenge and further if we may beleeue the Chaos de Politia ciuili ecclesiastica Lib. 3. which Law Cha. was so earnest to haue printed at Leyden ministers and persons Ecclesiasticall in that they are citizens may nay in respect they are wise learned ought to be of counsell of Princes in affaires ciuill of the Common-wealth and to giue especiall direction euen in setting vp and deposing of Princes
as he sayeth beeing a Presbyteriall man and further if there were nothing else by as good reason may our Bishops meddle in ciuill iurisdiction Retortion being Ecclesiasticall men as your prophane Laye elders intermeddle with Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction being ciuill men or Lay men Is not this a good and lawful conuersion Some ciuill Magistrate lawfully is an Ecclesiastical person and gouernour ergo some Ecclesiasticall person and gouernour lawfully is a ciuill Magistrate or if some may be so what prerogatiue for one is there more then for some other But stay a while the Demonstrator meaneth to skirmish with him selfe with ob and so The 1. Obiection Cyprian saith Demonstration lib. 1. epist 3. ad Cornelium Neither haue heresies and schismes risen of any other occasions then that the Priest of God is not obeied nor one Priest for the time nor one Iudge in steede of Christ thought vpon c. Answere This place is alledged for the Pope but it serueth for euery Bishop This place is else-where in Cyprian making for the superioritie of Bishops Remonstrance with reply Lib. 4. ep 9. But this answere cutteth their owne throate If for euery bishop ergo it serueth for the superioritie of our bishops which Cyprian in writing being a bishop and superiour ouer others would neither in him selfe nor other bishops of whom he also speaketh condemne The 2. Obiection The authoritie of the Archbishop preserueth vnitie Demonstration Answere Cyprian li. 4. ep 9. saith vnitie is preserued by the agreement of Bishops that is Ministers He speaketh of the vnitie of the Catholike Church Remonstrance with reply Lib. 1. ep 3. Bishops with Cyprian are not ordinarie Ministers you may not take these in signification 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all one But admitte it were so as it is not so in Cyprian Doeth this reason holde being the very like Vnitie is preserued by concorde and amitie of burgesses or commons of a Towne ergo not by the Magistrate or peaceable Maior of the Towne no more doth that It is preserued by bishops ergo not by Archbishops The 3. Obiection It compoundeth controuersies that would growe to many heades Demonstration Answere Cyprian saith lib. 1. ep 13. the companie of Elders is the glew of mutual concorde Demon. citeth 13. ca. 1. li. whereas there are but 12. editi Basil that if any be author of heresie the other should helpe Cyprian vseth in the former allegation lib. 1. ep 3. glutine sacerdotum The Church is framed and made fast with the glewe of priestes And also li. 3. ep 13. Corpus sacerdotum concordiae mutuae glutine the bodie of the priest If the word were Elders Remonstrance with replie the helpe of Elders meaning the Priestes lieth not as a barre to exclude the helping hands of bishops who are in degree higher then the priestes or of the Archbishop who is highest of them all for if concord of mindes make them to agree superioritie of order will with-hold them from disagreeing The 4. Obiection Ierom vpon Titus 1. saith that in the beginning a Bishop and a Priest Demonstration meaning a teaching Elder were all one but when one said I am of Paul I am of Apollos it was decreed one should beare rule ouer all the rest Answere From the beginning it was not so Tertullian contra That is true whatsoeuer is first c. and Hierom ibidem saith that this auctoritie was by custome and not by Gods institution If it had bene the best way to take away diuisions the Apostles in whose time controuersies did arise would haue taken the same order This is called preuarication or collusion Remonstrance with reply Epist ad Euagr. to oppose your selues a litle gentler and make the obiection weaker to fortifie your selues He that will make a rod for himselfe will make it of feathers If you would haue alledged out of Hierome the Epistle ad Euagr. would haue fitted your turne better where S. Hierome saith It was not onely decreed but decreed in all the worlde that one of the priestes being chosen should be set ouer or aboue all the rest this then you confesse was so but from the beginning it was not so Our Sauiour speaketh of matter of diuorce This text is brauely applied and that of Tertullian for matter of doctrine to a manner of discipline is in the like sorte applied But to the point of the argument Because S. Hierom is made to puritanize with you and this allegation is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to kill vs withall not to withstand Hierome but to vnderstand Hierome the best expounder of himselfe we plainely graunt that Bishop and Priest were once for a short time all one donec Ecclesia reciperet complemētum as Ambrose saith till the church were brought to a perfection so once there were no Deacons which yet derogateth nothing from them But yet not so all one that by the institution of God they were to continue all one and might not be changed or that in the Apostles time they were not foorthwith changed sith in the Apostles time I am of Paul I am of Cephas was the occasion of the change and that for rooting out of schisme and composing of strifes as in sending from Antioch to Ierusalem was the verie chiefe ende and purpose of the change and finally the decree of all the worlde for the ratifying of a standing superioritie was the approbation of the change as Hierome thinketh who being but a Priest or Minister himselfe though there he laboureth to debase the Bishop as much as he could yet by the pregnant light is forced to confesse such a decree though in truth it be not likely any such generall decree was positiuely made through all the worde otherwise then the imitation of such Churches by a secrete and vniuersall consent as the Apostles had planted and such a decree we will graunt Me thinketh I heare one of you reason as strongly thus In the beginning Kings were Priestes Absurditie of the obiection kingdome and priesthood were ioined in one ergo Kings and Priests must so remaine and continue all one Or in the beginning such was their simplicitie Great Lords sonnes Iacob and his children kept their fathers sheepe ergo Noble mens children must keepe their fathers sheepe for in the beginning yong sheepheards and yong princes were but all one Or thus In the beginning there were no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elders for the first mention of them is but in the 11. of the Actes ergo there neuer ought any Presbyteri viz. Ministers to haue bene ordeined The 5. Obiection Caluin sayth the Apostles had one amongst them to gouerne the rest The Answere That was for order to propound matters to gather voyces as the speaker of the Parliament not for Superioritie This answere would be better iustified then with bare wordes Remonstrance with replie Doe the fathers or Caluin thinke Iames was but chosen chiefe for one meeting
as they chuse their Presidents And we do not hold Caluin or any humane authoritie affirmatiue and therefore we rather defend it was for order Superioritie both of dignitie office Eusebius whom Caluin citeth to this purpose maketh Iames the sonne of Alpheus Byshop of Ierusalem and Byshop of the Apostles because the Synode of the twelue Disciples and 72. Euangelists continued from Christ his ascencion to the dispersion of the Apostles It must needes be amongst the Apostles and other Pastorall Elders not onely a gouernment for continuance of order but also preeminence in the action Act. 15.19 For there the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I iudge or determine is vsed whereupon after much disputation all rested and the matter was concluded for it is no preiudice to the equalitie of the Apostleship or ministerie a modest orderly and temperate authoritie This is worth the whole It was of order say they not of Superioritie as the speaker in Parliament as if all Superioritie were opposite to good order but as neere as they can they will borrow from the high Court of Parliament Belike they meane one day to keepe a Court of it Retortion The Speaker doeth not gather the voyces neither hath voice but when all the house is euen The L. Chanceller in the vpper house asketh the Clarke gathereth but the L. Chanceller remaineth the propounder so long as he is Chanceller And this their temporarie Presidencie is for order say they nay it is for disorder ordo est rationis Aristotle in his physicks To choose one this day another to morow and the third day choose a neewe is a tumultuous order Note this by the way Their gouernour or president of order in euery meeting is to propound matters to gather voyces viua voce or by scrutinie Ergo some authoritie is left vnto him for he is to propounde Ergo it is in his choyse to gather or scatter to silence or propound Ethicorum 3. eadem quae agere possumus non agere which is as much in valewe as a Warden amongst his schollers with a negatiue voyce which is a great preeminence and Superioritie The 6. Obiection Paul was Superiour to Timothie and Titus Demonstrator The Answere Paul and they had diuerse offices Paul an Apostle and they Euangelists ouer others Let him shewe me a reason Remonstrance with reply An Apostle being Superiour to an Euangelist and he to a Pastor c. why a Byshop may not be Superiour to a Pastor succeeding the Apostles for if vos autem non sic doe take away all Superioritie then an Apostle and euery Pastor is euery way equal a Pastor but equal with their lay Elder and Deacon As for Paul Doctor Gentium a Doctor of the Gentiles he was their Superiour this is beyond all question As for Titus and Timothie if as you say they were Superiors as Euangelists Ergo euery way Superior for Ecclesiasticall order ouer ordinarie Ministers It is an Absurditie to say Absurditie of the Demonstrator hee was Superior as an Euangelist Ergo not Superior as a Byshop sith hee that desireth a Byshopricke praeclarum opus desiderat desireth a good worke Paul sayth that Timothie worketh the worke of the Lord euen as he 1. Cor. 16. But hence followeth not that he was an Apostle euen as Paul was no more then hereof that hee was an Euangelist Or as well to make the holy Ghost say Episcopatum eius accipiat alter Let another take the Byshopricke of Iudas but let no man take the Apostleship of Iudas The fallacie of this is the caption adidem Our positiue learning is better then your negatiue learning they were Euangelists in some maner signification as Preachers but no such Euangelists as a seuerall office Ephes 4. as you imagine of them for by their owne authoritie they did not plant Churches but by commission and teaching of Saint Paul The one Timothie being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Prelate of the Ephesians 1. Thes 5.12 1. Tim. 3.14 Ephesus Metropoliticall citie of Asia where after his abode which Saint Paul requested of him for to stay no where you can finde Saint Paul afterward to sende for him especially from the date of writing the Epistle The other Titus being Archbyshop of Crete whether in that time or after times Crete were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iliad reporteth hauing three or an hundreth cities be it for ordeining or gouerning the one the other had Superioritie of all the Pastors there Iustin Martir one of the next writers to the Apostles calleth Timothie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernour or Prelate of the Church of Ephesus which he could not call him if hee had bin chosen for one onely meeting or action This worde in Plato 7. Epist. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Prefect of a city therefore al his Superioritie was not so much of order as of greatnes in authoritie and the Church from time to time hath admitted the title of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordeined by imposition of hands first or chiefe Byshop not so much for time as dignitie for he had to denounce and commaund 1. Tim. 1.4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is with power denounce and commaunde with many other wordes in that Epistle importing his Iudiciall authoritie and Superiour dignitie The 3. Proposition of the Demonstrator None may be ordeined to an office in the Church vntill the place be voyde Demonstrator The 1. Demonstration As was the twelfth place for Matthias so is a certaine place for euery Church officer But Matthias was not ordeined to the place til Iudas had made it voyde by hanging himselfe Ergo none is to bee ordeined before the place bee voyde Adde vnto this conclusion which you ought to do Remonstrance by hanging himselfe or by lot Or when an Apostleship falleth or when euery twelfth place is voyde by such maner of Resignation Absurditie of the Demonstrator as hanging himselfe or when Matthias commeth againe to bee chosen in Iudas place This Argument leapeth from one praedicament to another from the praedicament agere to vbi He ordeined him to an office Ergo to a place and a certaine place as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the world The Maior proposition is false For Christ appointed the number of twelue such as had bin conuersant with him so that there might of the Apostles be no lesse or more albeit he had 72. Disciples besides that had bin instructed by him which were Euāgelists but there is no set number of ordinarie Ministers prescribed to any nation which it may not come short of nor exceede In one Church of Antioche Ast. 13. was there not sundry both Prophets and Doctors there named yet no stinted number for it is there noted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as happely the Church then stood and it stoode very flourishing
not this maner of dealing in your owne respect Remonstrance to deriue your presbyterie from Sanedrim and your election from the ceremoniall law for all this tendeth vnto Iudaisme and wil ouerthrow your whole platforme To the Antecedent and sequele of the same If you conclude for your purpose you meane by Interest in liking viz. your election for other liking is not woorth the liking Euen with vs whom you do mislike the people may shew their cause of dislike the minister be disauthorized You would reason à fortiore but the reason procedeth ab infirmitate Admit which ought not to be granted the people might chuse Leuites vnder the ceremonial law they cannot chuse after the abrogatiō of the same The sequele of the Maior is not good for whatsoeuer was then vsed towards the Leuites though happily it might now be vsed yet doth it not follow that of necessitie it must now so be To the Assumption But they had c. No forsooth It was a ceremonie of offering and purifying instituted in that place not of election of the Leuites for God had chosen them before Num. 3. I cannot maruell sufficiētly at the strange boldnes of this sort of men The purpose here is to prooue election of church officers by the whole church but now he telleth vs onely of a liking the people must haue He speaketh when the Leuites are to bee elected Num. 3. 8. the place is when they are to be offered for all the Leuites male are elected and destinated from their birth to the seruice of the priests in the tabernacle in stead and redemption of all the first borne of the people whom the Lord had consecrate vnto himselfe which was the cause why the people laied their handes on the Leuites heads when they were to be offred as yeelding them vp in their steeds to that seruice This offring of them was after 25. yeeres of their age and they serued till 50. He telleth vs of teaching Leuites the place is of all the Leuites male to serue the priestes about dressing the sacrifices in the Tabernacle of the congregation Shall we say that all the 20. thousand Leuites that were then dedicated to this seruice and all their successors proued learned able to teach and did they in deede all teach in the Tabernacle And did euery one of all the children of Israel lay his hand vpon euery Leuites head that was offred which is the ground worke of the whole peoples interest in election that should hereof be proued As the people laide their hands on the Leuites so did the Leuites on the heads of the bullocks shall this also be retained among Christians Why they themselues doe not require nor allowe the people to lay hands vpon the elected but onely the eldership And because here the people laide on hands had they authoritie to allowe or disallow of them whome the Lorde had chosen afore Moses the ciuill Magistrate is commanded to take them indefinitely therefore al Leuites of those yeeres and to cause them to be purified likewise to cause the congregation of Israel to be assembled and to bring the Leuites before the Lord but Aaron and his sonnes the priestes did onely offer them and as it were by sacrifice consecrate them to the seruice in the Tabernacle Shall then our ciuill Magistrate be permitted so much in Church elections as here Moses was and will they be content that the lowe degree Ecclesiasticall be consecrated and ordeined by the greater as here and not the greater by the lesse as they absurdly doe ordeine ministers by the handes of vnministring Lay elders When we vrged a lawfulnes of superioritie and degrees in Ecclesiasticall persons by the like equitie vnder the lawe yea euen among priestes themselues one being aboue another then said they all was but ceremoniall and there was an high priest onely for a type of Christ and not for any direction or gouernment belike But when we cal for proofes of their presbyteries and perpetuitie of them then did they make Pastours answere to Priestes Doctors to Leuites Lay elders to I know not what Gouernours and Deacons to Keepers of the treasurie Counterpoison so that the Hierarchie in the olde was thus to be columned in the newe making the Scriptures by such dalliance to serue their turnes at all assaies as Procustes did his bed for men of all statures by cutting of some and stretching the shortest to the length of it Veritas est simplex mendacium multiplex They had neede of many shiftes for a false matter Therefore all that you can make out of that place if the Maior were necessarie is this The children of Israel put their hands vpon the Leuites Absurdity of the demonstrator or the heads of the Leuites the Leuites put their hands vpon the heads of the bullocks ergo the people now must lay their hands on the heades of the Ministers and the Ministers must lay their handes on the heades of bullockes For this your good reason learned of him as I saide afore Et vitulo tu dignus hic It is too egregious abuse of Gods people thus to trifle and yet to set such a grimme countenance on the matter as if euery worde dropped downe an Oracle from them The 3. Demonstration That which appertaineth vnto all Demonstration must be approued of all the Congregation but the ministerie in the Church pertaineth to all ergo auctoritie to approue pertaineth to all This is a paralogisme Remonstrance for auctoritie is in the conclusion which is not in either the premisses and therefore 4. termini This Maior is a rule of lawe Quod omnium interest ab omnibus debet approbari but so many exceptions as syllables in the rule But to the reason of the Maxime or rule Not euery one whome it concerneth to be gouerned must haue a stroke in the choise of the gouernour whether in election of a Maior of a citie or chosing a Burgesse or Knight of the shire but legales homines such as are credited with the matter This reason is too popular To haue a good Prince is euery mans benefit yet must not all Princes goe by election and if this be a diuine rule of nature and so to be vnderstood why doe the most voices carry the matter yea the odde voice oftentimes This absurditie of demonstrating is not out of kenning but in euery mans sight if you would make another syllogisme which is this That which pertaineth vnto all Retortion must be approoued of all The ministerie pertaineth to all men women and children of the Congregation ergo the approbation pertaineth to all men women and children of the Congregation And if one do but dissent the election must be dashed because all are interessed and some one or other may be preiudiced vncalled thereunto which is wholy contrarie to their practise and platforme and though the ministerie reacheth to all doeth it therefore follow the election of
rather make Elders very prone vnto and Paul also lesse carefull of all them then of Timothie alone then that they should not here by in some apparance be showldered into this action Why man if we should not trauerse this glosse with you it would followe that elders through greater number of voices might ordeine ministers with imposition of handes without aduise or consent of any minister of the worde nay against the will of Timothie whome you make an Euangelist and contrarie to the last reformed essentiall platforme and to your owne answere vnto the next obiection following Sticke not to your owne wits let the vniforme consent of learned antiquitie weigh some thing with you not onely in this interpretation but others also lest this be found to be one of the places in that booke of Discipline Ecclesiasticall which T.C. was forced in his epistle to disauowe as not agreeing vnto The 7. Obiection of the Demonstration The Councell of Laodicea decreed that people should not elect Demonstration Answere That is as Caluine vpon 16. Act. not elect alone without direction of a graue Minister T. C. maketh this Councell a bastard Councell Remonstrance by the iudgement of the Centuries but the Demonstrator as priuie to T.C. better pause maketh no doubt of the Councell the 12. Canon of which Councell would haue bishops preferred to Ecclesiasticall dignitie by the iudgement of the Metropolitane and other bishops As for Caluine it is not materiall whether he haue the worde or no the place is 14. Act. Quod non sit permittendum turbis electionem facere eorum qui sunt ad sacerdotium promouendi The common people will make turbulent elections And is this Caluines answer was euer afore that Councell any election permitted to Lay people without any Ecclesiasticall man that this should neede now to be decreed * ⎠* The fifth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator ALL those who are to be admitted to any publike office Demonstration must be examined by the Eldership The 1. Demonstration They who are to ordeine must haue particular knowledge and examination the Eldership is to ordeine ergo the Eldership must examine The Maior maketh for vs Remonstrance for your Lay Elders haue no knowledge for the most part to examine The Minor is obscurum per obscurius to approoue an ambiguitie by a doubtfull thing for wee defend that the eldership you fancie may not ordeine If we did allowe them ordination we would not sticke for examination but they want calling to ordeine and skill to examine The Syllogisme goeth against themselues Retortion 22. cap. 3. Conc. Carthag for what forehead can deny that all bishops haue or ought to haue examination witnesse to this all Fathers and Councels All that haue euer had examination haue bene bishops No Lay elders euer haue bene bishops ergo No Lay Elders ought to haue examination The 2. Demonstration Matters of greatest importance must be done by able gouernours Demonstration Approuing of Church officers is a matter of greatest importance the Eldership are most able gouernours ergo It must be done by the Eldership To the Minor Preaching of the worde Remonstrance and ministration of the sacraments are matters of greatest importance not electing of Church officers for this is referred to the other neither can your Lay Elders be for this point most able nay they are not able gouernours at all and least of all to haue examination of the learning of Ministers This syllogisme reuerseth against themselues Matters of greatest importance must be done by able gouernours one President Pastor and Eldership of Laytie are not best able gouernours ergo one President Pastor and Eldership cannot doe matters of greatest importance by consequence neither minister word and sacrament examine ordaine nor rule the Church The 3. Demonstration The way whereby a mans insufficiencie is best espied Demonstration is the best way to examine But by the Eldership consisting of diuers a mans insufficiencie is best espied for many eyes see more then one eye Ergo To the Maior We will not striue about the Maior Remonstrance because it serueth both our turnes But our answere is sufficiencie or insufficiencie is not best espied by those who of all others are most insufficient to iudge of able ministers De vnaquaque re iudicat in ea re peritus artifex Tullie Quam multa vident pictores in vmbris eminentia quae nos non videmus Ratiocinabitúrne de coloribus ortus caecus A bleare eye 1. Physic or a blind man cannot iudge of colours the Painter or Limner can also better iudge then we Touching the reason Many eyes see more then one Many bleare or blinke eies see not more nay not so much as one quicksighted eie One Ecclesiasticall wise gouernor or prelate is like to Linceus eie seeth further then all they and sometimes he that hath but halfe an eie seeth farther then Poliphemus with his great basen eie Is not one great Clarke better able to iudge of a mans sufficience in learning then twentie thousand Laste of vnlearned tradesmen or artisans The 4. Demonstration Men least subiect to partialitie are to examine The Eldership are least ergo Demonstration To the Minor That is a fabulous narration of your Eldership Remonstrance who being many and but Mechanicall artisans and idiotes in learning are most subiect to loue hatred fauour friendship schisme and diuision Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus Especially euerie one hauing a Negatiue voyce in the elections as you make by your rule That which concerneth all must bee approoued of all Such turbulent elections of Bishops were in the Primitiue Church where as one man being a good man in the place Iustum tenacem propositi virum Non ciuium ardor praua iubentium Non vultus instantis tyranni Mentit quatit solida The 5. Demonstration The Apostles way in examination is to be followed Demonstration For many to examine is the Apostles way Ergo to be followed To the Maior Here he is come from his eldership vnto Many Remonstrance as if wheresoeuer many are there were streight their Eldership The Apostles way commanded as perpetuall is to be followed but no such thing appeareth to be commanded To the Minor We must distinguish of this word Many Absurditie of the Demonstrator not for Eldership but for the multitude of disciples which is absurd now for the whole multitude to elect much more to examine a thing not mentioned in all scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 120. Ergo 120. must elect examine and present now Or the 12. did call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The whole multitude of disciples Act. 1.15 to chuse Deacons then Ergo the innumerable multitude of all beleeuers must examine the Deacons to bee chosen now as though if the Deacons were onely distributers to the poore as is imagined by you any learning were requisite
taketh vpon him to preach is a preacher nay according to the first Demonstration and others of this chapter and his interpretation of it none be The hauing a Reader debarreth not from seeking to a Preacher and therefore it is better to haue readers then none at all As for parrat Preachers it is better to haue a discreete Reader then one of them who are bolde and hambolde to speake but speake not to the purpose or else speake schismatically and therefore are turned out The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is impossible to haue preachers euery where Demonstration ergo readers Answere of the Demonstrator This is a disgrace to say it is impossible and yet to say all is well and to violate the Lordes decree He that is challenged so to say by you Remonstrance with reply saith it is not possible as the state is nowe to haue such supplie in euery free chappell or place of seruice of a preacher there is some difficultie in compassing of this But to depraue other mens word is your speciall grace as for breaking Gods decree you must better proue it then you haue or else neuer say that the parte of a ministers dutie to reade in the Church to be thus vnlawfull In the feare of God be it spoken we will thanke God for our freedome both to reade Gods word and preach and pray for her Maiesties gratious continuance for so much quantitie of dominion no such plenteous preaching is in all the world as in her Maiesties dominion God increase the number of learned and well aduised preachers The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator It were vncharitablenes to turne bare Readers out Demonstration for they their wiues and children should begge Answere of the Demonstrator Better 3. or 4. begge then damnation of 1000. Yea it were iniustice and impietie to turne them away Remonstrance with replie because they cannot preach for they can exhort and teache and minister the sacraments no such feare of damnation of a 1000. But it is your preiudice and condemnation to auouch that by their ministerie God cannot saue soules I doubt not but much better by sundrie mens labours being but simple in learning then by the most of that crue their vaine verball babling which with griefe of heart I knowe the most of your humour to vse in sermons for set aside a fewe resonant ill applied wordes culled together to astonish the simple a litle for that time what order what learning or any thing else tending to the building of the inward man in spirituall knowledge is to be founde in most of their speakings or exercises So that I see no difference betwixt such vnlearned talkers and the ignorant ministers whome with great disdaine they terme neuer better then Dumbe dogges but that these because they cannot preach will not and therefore are lesse impudent the other in truth cannot barke but yet will be bolde to be balling though it be but against the Moone or with running riot How much different is S. Hieroms iudgement from yours he saith thus It is a fault in some Bishops Hierom. 〈…〉 19. 〈…〉 that chuse not into the Clergie those who be the best but who talke the best non meliores sed argutiores and thinke simple and harmelesse men to be vnliable for the ministerie The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator That the Church ought not to be gouerned by Commissaries Officials Demonstration and Chancellors The 1. Demonstration They who are no elders ought not to haue any thing to doe in the gouernment of the Church 1. Tim. 5.17 Those Chancellors Commissaries Officials are no elders whether you take elder for a minister or assistant ergo To the Maior The Maior proposition is intricated both with schisme vntruth Remonstrance and treason For the Queenes Maiestie is no elder no minister no priest and yet hath and ought to haue the gouernment of the Church whereas such elders as you meane haue nothing at all to doe in the Church either by precept or president The conuersion is false which the Demonstrator would haue gathered Elders gouerne well ergo they that are no Elders doe not gouerne others may gouerne in the actions of the Church who are no pastorall elders which is the answere to your Minor For Chancellors Commissaries Officials they are assistant to the pastorall elders or doe gouerne in foro litigioso and yet many of them also pastorall elders and ministers It is a loude lie to say none of them are ministers Well the griefe is that euery minister may not gouerne and rule without checke of all superiors not onely bishops or their substitutes but any other This is a wise Demonstration which is a paralogisme consisting all of negatiues and is like to this viz. No bishoply authoritie is lawfull none eldership is a bishoply authoritie ergo none eldership is lawfull The 2. Demonstration They who must gouerne the Church Demonstra must haue a warrant for so doing from Christ But the Chancellors c. haue no warrant from Christ ergo The Maior is false if you meane immediately from Christ Remonstr or especially and positiuely warranted otherwise then as all superiour power is of God It is sufficient to be warranted from the Christian Magistrate those who occupie the place of the Apostles else a Maior Sherife and Constable Iustice of peace and maister of an Hospitall should haue an vnlawfull authoritie For a man may no more deale without lawfull warrant in the Common-wealth then he may doe in the externall gouernment of the Church To the Minor Their warrant is out of the worde of God He that gouerneth in diligence Rom. 12. The bishops and others make them partakers of their authoritie by way of delegation and substitution which in Church and Common-wealth is both lawfull for not onely by the equitie but by examples of Scriptures and practise of the Primitiue Church substitution may be approoued lawfull The 3. Demonstration They whose names Demonstration offices and practise be deriued from Antichrist may not gouerne the Church of Christ for who will suffer his wife to be gouerned by the maister of a Brothell house but so are the names c. of our Chancellors because they are grounded in the filthie dunghill of the Canon lawe ergo To the Maior The Maior is of infinite distance from the Minor Remonstrance I answere to the Minor The name of Chancellor is not founde in all the Canon Lawe in that sence it is vsed but in the Ciuill Lawe of the Romanes is vsed for any chiefe assistant sitting intra eosdem tribunalis cancellos cum Magistratu as I haue learned of those who be skilfull and is not repugnant vnto but may be said to be deriued out of Gods lawe if the deriuation be drawne à cancellis to keepe vnbrideled or inordinate men intra cancellos within their boundes So the name of Commissaries by reason of commission or matter of
charge wherewith they are credited or Officials for the offices they beare are most Christian names else why doe themselues so often call their Tetrarches Church officers a name not founde in Scripture neither discipline in their sense nor classis nor prouincial or nationall Synode As for the pillar the Minor leaneth vpon to proue their offices and practise to be deriued from Antichrist it is weake and vnstable viz. All founded vpon the Canon lawe is grounded vpon a dunghill Some dunghill scholler made this Minor to diminish and detract from the authorized Canons of the Church vnder the odious name of the Popes lawe For the Canon lawe which is reteined with vs is nothing but the olde Canons of the Primitiue Church and such other approoued Iudicials in matters Ecclesiasticall as be neither contrarie to the prerogatiue royall nor to the lawes and statutes of the Realme and which had bene vsed before the making of that acte of Parliament 25. H. 8. are therefore since by diuerse actes in K. Ed. 6. daies and in her Maiesties honoured with the name of the kings Ecclesiastical lawes and the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme and they are in like sorte vsed in the Ecclesiasticall Consistories of most of the reformed Churches in Germanie as they are here who doe as litle esteeme the Pope as we can doe Neither are some of those which were set downe by the Popes authoritie therefore vsed of vs as binding this Realme in respect of the ordeiner any more then Italy Fraunce or Spaine be said to acknowledge the authoritie of the Romane emperours ouer them for vsing the ciuill lawes For we doe therefore onely practise them because they concurre with the former statute enacting them and being set downe by good aduise are found equal and profitable Those who disdaine them in respect of the author doe shewe therein as witlesse curiositie as if they would vrge vs to abandon all printing because it was deuised first at Harlem by a Papist or ceasse to defende our selues with gunnes for that a Monke inuented them But if the matter retained displease them as not conuenient nor according to rules of equitie let all the wisest of them take all the seuerall cases propounded throughout that lawe and giue diuerse or cleane contrarie decisions to that which is there giuen and they shall thereby easily finde themselues either ridiculous absurde or vniust lawgiuers The most of them are such as haue happened may happen in Church gouernment If they can finde the decision of them in the worde of God directly we will then abandon all other Canons and onely followe theirs The Church may not be without lawes in externall gouernment and to referre all to the gouernours will were a steppe to all tyrannie and insolencie As for the slaunder to call Christian Magistrates or once to compare them to maisters of the stewes they being the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme is a more filthie and beastly phrase of speech Aconitum spunia Cerberi then Cerberus the hound of hell could spewe But we are too wel acquainted with these fowle blasphemous mouthes it is but sutable to the opinion they cary of the supreme Christian Magistrates and of their lawes Ecclesiasticall or Common The 4. Demonstration They that being inferiors doe tyrannize ouer their superiors Demonstration ought not to rule the Church but such as they doe tyrannize ouer the ministers to whom they are inferiours by the Canon lawe ergo they ought not to rule the Church This is not the issue in question Remonstrance for we say not that they are to rule the Church but are ministers of iustice according to the ordinances of the Church The Maior is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet true so long as they doe tyrannize ouer their superiours they ought not to rule the Church To the Minor therefore They who execute their office with correspondence to their dutie and according to lawes doe not tyrannize neither are they in place of iustice inferiour but are inferiour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in respect of the dignitie of the office of the ministerie But this office of ministerie doth not alwaies worthie the person aboue euery calling though not so sacred else should euery ministers person be aboue any Lorde or the Prince himselfe that chiefly dealeth but in matters of this life Besides surrogatus sapit naturam surrogantis If then the bishop who doth appoint them be aboue an ordinarie minister then are they also In place of iustice a meane Gentleman is superiour to a Duke conuented and so is a poore Constable in matters of his office by reason of them who giue the authoritie and whose persons they beare But thus we turne it home againe vpon themselues They that being inferiours doe gouerne the superiours according to their owne will Retortion without any direction of lawes they doe proudly tyrannize and consequently neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church But your Lay elders being of inferiour calling as your selues confesse to your Pastors and Doctors and much more to the whole Congregation doe gouerne them euen to the displacing or censuring them according to their owne wils and discretions without all direction of lawes which is tyrannie and their platformes doe abrogate all lawes but of their owne making which are not yet framed and in deede experience teacheth that their Consistories will not willingly tie themselues to any set lawes in their gouernment which maketh their decrees concerning diuers persons where the matter neuerthelesse is the selfe same to be so diuers and contrarie ergo Your laie elders doe proudly tyrannize and so neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church The 5. Demonstration They who liue by the faults of men are not fit to rule the Church Demonstration But all Chancellors Officials Commissaries doe so Ergo To the Maior It is very false if it bee meant per accidens to liue by faults Remonstrance as here it must needs be for in this sort doe all iudges iudiciall officers and ministers hauing fees liue by the wrong that the one partie doth to the other So the clerkes of the crowne of gaole deliuerie and of peace doe liue by the pleas against traitors murderers felons and other malefactors c. and yet lawfull in the common weale why not the like in the Church Nemo militat proprijs stipendijs To the Minor O rash and temerarious iudgement What art thou that iudgest an other mans seruant you may remember Horace saying Mendax infamia terret Quem nisimendosum mendacem They do not liue but by honest fees though they grew by occasion of faults as the least part of them in deed doth if any doe and therefore the Minor very false and slaunderous The matters whereupon their fees doe rise are either beneficiall tending to the title and maintenance of the ministerie or testamentarie tending to the performance of the deads will or
ministerie but by such a fansied presbyterie We therefore thus retort against you They who cannot assure or conferre like grace as was assured to Timothy they haue nothing to doe to ordaine or lay on hands by the grounds interpretation of your own place your Eldershippe neither do nor can assure or conferre like grace Ergo they haue not to do with ordinatiō or imposition of hands And again If only the eldership can assure men of their calling as you assume in your minor then cannot the classis or synodes ordeine ministers being seueral assemblies offices in the Church neither can the Demonstrator nor any of the faction haue any assurance of their callings Or els the Bishops calling is the calling by an Eldership Then also the blessing that you imagine God giues to your labours is none assurance of your calling But you will not condemne your selues for intruders for running before you were sent nor denie the fruites of your paines to giue assurance vnto you of your callings nor allow the Bishop that ordeined you to be an eldership Ergo the ordination by an Eldership is not the onely way to assure a man of his calling which is the contradictorie of your minor Besides that it is vnsounde diuinitie to say that the outward calling in what sort soeuer is an assurance of the inwarde as here is meant The 3. Demonstration or Allegation Many sentences before alledged out of Councels lawes histories Demonstration writers old and newe that speake for election by many speake for ordination by manie and not by one Albeit we did graunt for 200 yeeres after Christ Remonstrance the people in diuers places had voyces of acclamation not of suffrages in election of their Bishops yet had they not like in election of their pastours or priestes As for ordeining they had no part at al either for Bishops or priests at any time The election at somtimes permitted before princes were Christian and euen by Christian princes afterward could not make them ordeiners neither shall you find any acte of ordination giuen to any of the people All Councels giue ordination of a Bishop to the Metropolitane or to the Bishops therfore to giue vnto the Church Aldermen this authority egally distributed were geason strange newes Your reason roundly trussed vp is this Election was by many peoples voices Ergo Ordination by many Elders hands which is no sequele And why not by one sith the designement is so by the holy Ghost Lay thine hands rashly on none Timothie was but one Vnus instar omnium One in steede of all as representing all as hauing the preeminence of ordeyning aboue all The 4. Demonstration or Allegation Euagrius came to a Bishopricke vnlawfully Demonstration Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. because one Paulinus ordeined him contrary to the Canons which prouide he must be ordeyned by all or by three at the least Theod. saith Remonstrance Plures canones simul violauit Made him his successor being about to die without the comprouinciall Bishops And so say we if any will aspire without the comprouinciall Bishops but by your leaue wee doe not intend hereby to account euery parish priest or inferior pastor to be priuiledged as a Bishop which meaning I wote right well you haue The 5. Demonstration or Allegation When a Bishop is to be ordeined Demonstra Conc. Carthag 4. ca. 23. one shal pronounce the blessing and the rest of the Bishops with elders present shall lay on their hands This is ca. 2. distinct 23. Remonstrance But it is false play to foist in your eldership into the Canon for it is reliqui omnes episcopi which is the vse in our consecration of Bishops where all the Bishops present and in our ordination of ministers where all the ministers present lay on hands with the Bishop The 6. Demonstration or Allegation When a Bishop is ordeined Demonstra Cypri li. 1. epi 4 the Bishops adioyning did ordeine him We graunt Cyprian Remonstrance but ordination of a minister consecration of a bishop neither with Cyprian nor the councel are alone thing See Conc. Carth. 4. ca. 3. qualiter presbyteri ordinentur The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Paul and Barnabas ordeined Elders Demonstration and no mention made of Eldership The Answere of the Demonstrator They are saide to ordeine because they were chiefe in ordeyning as Iosua was said to circumcise which was the Leuites office Ios 3. ver 5. cap. and the Queene sayde to make a lawe and not she alone The Argument holdeth good Remonstrance with reply P. and B. did ordeine Elders Ergo Elders did not ordeine one another As for the pieuish interpretation They did ordeine that is chiefly ordeine as Iosua it is expresly in the Text That the Lord bidde Iosua make sharpe kniues and circumcise Ergo by diuine Oeconomie he might do it or in the 8. ver is a clearer construction when they had made an ende of circumcising the Leuites did circumcise and Iosua commanded but nothing is in the Text that after Paul and Barnabas had ordeyned the others made an ende of the action and therefore were no parties in the beginning middle or end of the same for they commended them to the grace of God so your similitude or exemplifying in neither of these doth holde And what reason is this Iosua is saide to doe that which he commandeth others to do Ergo Paul Barnabas who commanded none others but imposed handes themselues as wee both confesse had others to ioyne with them and so by this wise construction these Churches had Elderships of no mans calling before they had Ministers and if they had not had such neither Paul nor Barnabas had beene able to haue ordeyned them any ministers for want of their assistance The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Albeit then so not so nowe No more then communitie in the Apostles time Demonstrator Answere There was no more communitie then then now for they are Anabaptistes who so thinke Ergo the instance maketh for vs. The instance maketh litle for you Remonstrance with reply if you defende communitie of all quoad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 both for proprietie and vse or that a man may now say as then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they had all common solde their possessions and goodes deuided to all as euery man had neede 2. Act. 45. verse Neither did any man say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ought of his goodes to be his proper owne but all was common Act. 4.32 This is right Anabaptisticall if you so say that eyther proprietie or egaltie of the vse is eyther common to all or chalengeable by any now a daies The thirde Obiection of the Demonstrator Examples are no generall rules to be followed The Answere of the Demonstrator Demonstrator Examples not contrary to rules or reason of Scriptures are to be followed as if they were commandements Yea but a generall
Christ saith not No man shall be so but he that will be so desiring it Answere of the Demonstrator Demonstra Luke saith Let the greatest be your seruant ergo that is a shift Though our Sauiour say Remonstrance with reply Vos autem non sic and in Luke Let him be your seruant the one doth represse the humour of ambition the other clause doth expresse Christian humilitie Christ was as their seruant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet had he superiour authoritie ouer them Assertion of the Demonstrator A Bishop should be resident in euery Congregation Demonstration The 1. Demonstration If a Bishop and a Minister be all one then must there be a bishop in euery Congregation but they are one for S. Paul describeth them and their qualities all one ergo The Antecedent I admit Remonstrance if they be simply and absolutely all one To the Assumption We will not denie but the wordes Episcopus Presbyter Minister Pastor may notifie all one thing or sometimes taken for all one in describing one and the same thing improperly taken But in their more proper acceptance a bishop and a Presbyter must signifie distinct things both in office and in dignitie This is a flat aequiuocation to say Presbyter or pastoral elder signifieth principally an inferiour minister ergo it must notifie as properly and principally a bishop and a minister As for your wittie reason the bishop and minister haue one qualitie ergo are one thing although I might answere you some of those qualities are not of pure necessitie affixed to the bishop or minister as to be the husband of one wife yet your answere shall be all these are not formall accidents and doe not properly distinguish As for the qualities of yemind they make not special difference of offices in the Church It followeth not because they were a while in the foundation of the Church all one that therefore they doe stil in all respectes continue all one being changed euen in the Apostles times But thus we retort If Presbyter and Episcopus be all one then he that is not episcopus cannot be termed Presbyter idem numero sunt maximè idem conuertuntur but your Lay elders are not episcopi ergo they are not Presbyteri no Elders at all nor so to be termed The 2. Demonstration S. Paules Bishops and Deacons were appointed for one place Demonstration S. Paules Deacons were in euery Congregation Philip. 1. Act. 6.2 and continued longer then the Bishops Athan. 2. Apolog. Hierom. cont Lucifer ergo there ought to be a Bishop in euery Congregation Vnlesse you meane place to be a Congregation in the Maior there are 4. termini in the whole Syllogisme Remonstrance To the partes S. Paules Bishops and Deacons c. This is a false copulatiue and maketh a fallacie of things that are separated true not conioined true by fallacious composition The multiplicitie of the meaning breedeth aequiuocation as before viz. a bishop which is an ouerseer of the flocke whome we call Presbyter or Pastor or Priest and the Deacons are for one Congregation And a bishop who is aboue a Pastor or Priest must be but ouer one Congregation the former is true the later is false Episcopus is a worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations S. Paules bishop is in both significations To the Minor The Apostles did the office of Deacons for a time That they continued longer then Paules bishops it is false sith the equitie of the offices continueth still whether you take them for inferior ministers or distributers to the poore they haue neuer discontinued Vnto the place of Athanasius and Hierom which you do not cite but aime to euery way and no way I haue nothing to say but this Athanasius in the 2. Apolog. defuga sua hath written nothing to countenance your assertion you doe the better to quote nothing And for Hierome there he doth proue that Deacons and Priestes in that Church did baptize being authorized from the bishops who gaue an imposition of handes or confirmation after they had baptized The 3. Demonstration That which Paul commanded Titus Demonstration is to be practised in like case But he commanded him to ordeine Elders which is Bishops Tit. 1.5 ergo they must be in euery place This is strange to refort to this place of Titus which maketh for superioritie Remonstrance and against equalitie of ministers To the Minor Elders all pastorall Elders are in generalitie of signification bishops that is ouerseers all bishops are not inferiour pastorall Elders The answere is before the worde Episcopus and Presbyter are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations The 4. Allegation or Demonstration Euery Church should haue her communion table and bishop Demonstr Ignat. ad Philodelph epist None better then Ignatius distinguisheth the orders His meaning is of an ouerseeing Pastor Remonstrance or where it is expedient to haue a chiefe bishop This allegation is answered cap. 13. The 5. Allegation or Demonstration Where any was found woorthy to be a Bishop there they appointed a Bishop Demonstration where there was not to furnish a bishop and an elder hee meaneth the Doctor there the Apostles made the bishop and left the Elder How iniurious is the Demonstrator to Epiphanius Remonstrance who disputeth against Aerius heresie Erat sermo Aerij furiosus magis quà m humanae conditionis quid est episcopus ad Presbyterum vnus or do vnus honor vna dignitas It was Aerius reasonlesse or furious rather then reasonable maner of speach What is a bishop better then a pastorall elder or priest there is but one order of both like honor both one dignitie With what face can he produce Epiphanius for equalitie who saith a bishop cannot rebuke an elder but because he hath authoritie ouer him Now for Epiphanius his words are otherwise and the Demonstrator either obliuious or neuer read Epiphanius Cum autē multitudo non esset non inuenti sunt inter eos qui presbyteri constituerentur had not the supplie of many priests or pastorall elders They were contented onely with a bishop vntil they might haue complete number of such elders ouer whom the bishop caried his superior hand of authoritie Finally Epiphanius did not so much as dreame of this elder to be there an ordinarie Doctor sith Presbyter with him is but an inferior Pastor What Chamaeleon with changeable colours is our Demonstrator An elder in this new Tetrarchie sometimes is a parish bishop elsewhere an Alderman gouerning his ward other times a graue and profound Doctor all which to sweare with them Epiphanius must be forced The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr 2. Conc. Carth. 1. Tom. ca. 10. If a bishop run into slander and many bishops cannot suddenly bee gathered the cause must be heard of 12. bishops You may bee ashamed to alleage that Councill to confirme your parish bishops Remonstrance which distinctly setteth downe
ergo To the Maior The Logician in his method goeth vp ab vltimo ad primum Remonstrance other times commeth downe à primo ad vltimum in the same predicament ergo by your demonstration a Logician is simply diuerse from him selfe The Galenist distributeth the whole into parts Absurdity of the Demonstrator at other times collecteth the partes to make the whole ergo a Galenist or a physition absolutely differeth from himselfe Or This man is to runne vp the hill the other to run downe Ergo this man differeth from the other as a man To the Maior Paul biddeth Timothie attend to reading and doctrine 1. Tim. 4. Ergo by the Demonstrator he forbiddeth him to vse exhortation in the course of preaching beyng the very worde which hee putteth betwixt reading and doctrine so that he both exhorted and taught Nay how can a man exhort to a thing without doctrine precedent Can a man feede and teach not or teach and feede not Is not doctrine the foode of the soule The one affecteth the intellectuall minde the other the will Besides where doeth he finde in Scripture that he must be called Pastor that exhorteth and hee Doctor that teacheth and that one man may not take both courses I tell you we allowe not the absurde Sermon vpon the 12. Rom. for Scripture The 4. Demonstration Ecclesiastical stories speaking of the church of Alexandria Demonstration that there were Doctors and Bishops make the vsuall difference The difference is of Catechists as Origene Remonstrance and after him Heraclius at Alexandria Cyrill at Hierusalem Deo gratias at Carthage from Bishops But what letted them from exhortation or application of doctrine And Catechists that doe but teach rudiments are farre from the perfection and soundnesse of learning of him that shall deserue the office of a Doctor The 5. Demonstration Cathedrall Churches haue one to reade a Lecture Demonstration Ergo a manifest separation of Doctor from Pastor The Lecturer neither is nor ought to be barred from the life of exhortation Remonstrance no more then your owne pastors are barred from deliuering doctine But they are not two full hereof and make necessitie not so much a vertue as the seueraltie of office a vaine pretence The 6. Demonstration If the distinguishing of them make more for the building of the Churche Demonstration then the vniting of them then ought they to be distinguished First is true Ergo the second The antecedent standeth vpon a false supposall Remonstrance for to vse a Doctorship or explication without the liuely application is to make a bodie not organized with a soule Corpus inane animae such cold speculation is best for such colde prophets or Doctors of Vtopia The consequence is also false for it would make more for the building of the Church to haue a seuerall expounder of euery seuerall booke of the Bible if such might be had and yet you may not make vp so many distinct Church officers as there be bookes in the Bible To the Assumption It is lesse credite for a man to deliuer the writing and not the seale he that deliuereth the word of the doctrine may be vouchsafed to deliuer the Sacrament and seale of the same And he that propoundeth the veritie of a doctrine may with perswasion vrge the efficacie and vse of the same both exhort and comfort it is the sole and sound way of edification of Gods people The ancient fathers are of opinion that they signifie not diuers offices but diuers acts of one man and are therefore ioyned with the copulatiue Ephe. 4. It is but a new deuise among your selues to require them as a necessarie office in euery Church to countenance out Trauers Fenner and such like Doctors who neuerthelesse stood more vpon exhortation dehortation then vpon doctrine The first admonition nor second the French discipline the Gernsey the Scottish require them not necessarily neither are they of the Consistorie or Eldership in Fraunce Beza at Geneua is both Pastor and Doctor The twelfth Chapter The Assertion THere ought to be Elders in euery congregation The 1. Demonstration Demonstration That which the Apostles established ought to continue in euery congregation The Apostles established elders Act. 14.23 not preaching elders because of scarcitie Paul sent Titus and Timothie to great cities Ergo gouerning Elders To the Minor Because the Maior is so often answered Remonstrance I answere to the Minor that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this place must signifie preaching Elders not vnpreaching prelates or gouernours which their owne reason perswadeth vnto for if there were scarcitie of doctrine scarcitie of discipline was greater farre If seedes of doctrine did not plenteously grow to what ende serued the hedge or wall of discipline It is preposterous in course holie maners before holie faith before a conuersion a religious and sanctified conuersation many elders before many teachers of the worde This is violence offered to the Text by the Demonstrator who euer before these men interpreted that place of vnpreaching lay Elders Nay himselfe and all the rest vse it as the onelie chiefe place to proue ministers elections by the people The 2. Demonstration The helpers in the buylding must be in euery congregation Demonstra But Christ hath ordeyned helpers 1. Cor. 12.28 Ergo Elders To the Minor Whether ye meane 1. Cor. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 helpers Remonstrance or gonernours it is too generall to restrayne to vnpreaching Elders Those wordes may concerne all ordinarie and extraordinarie Christian Magistrates and ministers and nothing helpeth to introduce elders There is neuer an office mentioned in Scripture but your elders will haue a snatch at it rather then sit out as they are like from any patrocinie thence The 3. Demonstration That which wanting the body cānot be entire must be in euery cōgregation Demonstra But the Elders cannot be wanting and the Church entire Rom. 12. Ergo I will syllogize after this manner Remonstrance That which superaboundeth the body may lacke The Elders are ex superabundanti Ergo they may lacke To the Minor Either Bishops or Deacons or the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernors or Presbyters import the Elders Not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for all such may minister the worde and sacraments and also preach Not Presbyteri such are feeding and pastorall elders nor the Deacons for they are vnderneath and inferiour vnto them nor Bishops for they are Presidents and ouerseers ouer all and are superiour pastors Ergo the elders are a superfluitie and an excremencie to be pared and cut away and are ex superabundanti to the Church may very well be wanting As for the place Rom. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He that gouerneth in diligence concerneth al gouernors Ecclesiasticall and ciuill The 4. Demonstration If the worde hath described the Elders Demonstration then they must bee But the worde
acoluthos subdiaconos which orders we haue not The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Caluin institut li 4. ca. 3. sect 9. Demonstrat saith we ought to haue the like So we haue Remonstrance for the booke of ordination appointeth them this office where other order is not taken But Caluine prooueth women Deacons and the perpetuitie of them out of the same place which you giue the slippe vnto The 15. Demonstration or Allegation Deaconship is an ordinarie function Demonstra Beza confe ca. 5. sect 22.23 What is this to the purpose who maketh it extraordinary but your selues who take away the attendance on the ministerie Remonstran his lawfull helpe The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Philip one of the 7. Deacons did preach Act. 8.8 Ergo Demonstration The Answere of the Demonstrator He preached by vertue of being an Euangelist The wordes are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Philip after the persecution Remonstran with reply Herom ad Luciferi Scias Philippum eundem Dominum Iesum Christum praedicasse diaconum certè fuisse eorum qui posteae manus imposuerunt preached Christ going downe to Samaria baptized also those whome he conuerted Ergo he preached as a minister of the word and of that Sacrament although by his first ordination a Deacon Or shew where he had new imposition of handes for the warrantie of that hee did Offices then were not so precisely distinguished I denie he was an Euangelist as an officer distinct Ephe. 4. but is called an Euangelist as euery one may bee that preacheth the Gospel and as all might be that were dispersed Act. 8.4 For all those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 went abroade preaching the word The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Stephen being a Deacon preaeched Answere Demonstration It was an Apologie and no Sermon It was an Apollogeticall Sermon as his Sermon beeing an exact Sermon declareth He was no priuate man Remonstrance with reply that was full of faith and power refelled the Cyrenians and Lybertines and did manie signes and confirmed his doctrine with his bloud You cannot shewe so much pregnancie in all the scripture that Philippe and Stephen euer distributed to the poore as doeth here appeare for their preaching and baptizing also as Philip did The Assertion of the Demonstrator That there ought to be Deacons in euery Congregation Demonstra The 1. Demonstration That which euery congregation hath neede of ought to be But euery congregation hath neede because it hath poore Ergo That Remonstrance or the equitie of that ought to bee Our Collectors our Church-wardens our Hospitals Almes-houses are in steed of that part of their corporall ministration or Deaconship in many places Our Sauiour Iesus although he faide you shall haue poore alwayes with you did not foorth with send the Deacons therefore graunting of poore doeth not necessarily inferre placing of Deacons The 2. Demonstration That which is indefinitely appoynted for the good of the Church Demonstration must be in euery Congregation But such is Timoth. 3.8 Ergo By your leaue Sir Remonstrance that which is definitely appoynted must rather holde in euerie Congregation for which cause we vpholde the order of Deacons by institution Apostolicall but neither manner of their election nor number of 7 which the councell of Neocaesar doeth allowe and is after repealed by an other Councell Your Maior is grossely false Synodes and Classes are indefinitely appoynted for the good of the Churche as you say Ergo they must be planted and continually setled in euery parish The 3. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr Igna. ad Philad Euery Church must haue the office of Deaconship Ignatius meaneth by a Deaconship attendaunce on the Bishoppe in his See Remonstrance not a corporall Deaconrie The wordes are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There is one Bishoppe with the Elders and Deacons The 4. Demonstration All the reasons in the 12. chapter for a Bishoppe in euery Congregation Demonstration serue for a Deacon As good reason will be affoorded for a parishe Bishoppe as onely a corporall Deaconship Remonstrance and the same answeres will serue them The fourteenth Chapter The Assertion THe Eldership consisteth of a Pastor or pastors Demostrat Doctor if there by any and Elders Ergo Remonstrance your Doctor is not of this indeclinable necessitie wherein you follow the discipline of Fraunce But how can you then vrge the 4. Eph. for all these offices to bee in euerie congregation and why doth your last absolute plat make them essentiall in euery Church so as it cannot be a Church without them 1 The Eldership ought to be in euery congregation Demonstration 2 The Eldership is perpetuall 3 The Church must be gouerned onely by the rules of Gods worde The 1. Demonstration The means which Christ hath ordeined to keepe men in obedience must be in euery Congregation But Christ hath or deyned the Eldership to that ende Mat. 18.15 Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church Ergo it must be in euery Congregation To the Minor Christ hath neither ordeyned any Eldership Remonstrance nor to any such ende 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Tell the Church is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the promiscuous multitude of men women and children nor yet the Lay Elders but the lawfull Ecclesiasticall gouernours or magistrates of the Church It is one thing to say Dic senioribus ecclesiae tell the Seniorie of the Church another thing tell the Gouernors of the Church or the Church simply The 2. Demonstration Where all sortes of Elders must be Demonstration there must be the ioyning of these offices in one But all sortes of elders ought to be in euery Congregation as in the chap. 10. for Bishops 12. for Elders Ergo To the Maior I doubt of the veritie of this Maior Remonstrance for it is not needefull where euerie sort of Ancients must be there shoulde be combination and ioyning of the offices in one for in the citie of London are the auncients of euery Corporation and mysterie to waite on the Lorde Maior and to assemble at a Folkemote Ergo after your minde they must ioyne their offices companies and mysteries all in one They may ioyne the presence of their persons they need not conioyne or confound the offices together in one to make one entire office consisting of them all To the Minor Preaching and vnpreaching Elders Doctorall and Pastorall cannot be in euery congregatiō neither need be for whence shal a man nourish them as Demosthenes saith What from heauen for if they bee nourished from the earth the encrease therof like vnto the caterpiller they will eate vp euerie greene thing If you say euerie sorte of them is prooued before I am sure it is disproued also before This Minor is false for if they ought to bee why doe you suffer the Doctour to bee wanting at least not to bee of such necessitie but that hee may bee spared The 3.
vrged in perpetuitie but yet for any such Eldership we hold there is neither commaundement nor example for one time nor for other The 4. Demonstration That whose partes are perpetual perpetuall giftes with it that is perpetuall Demonstration But the seuerall partes of the Eldership as Pastor Doctor Elder are perpetuall as it is proued in the 10. and 12. cap. Ergo To the Maior It is false for that whose partes are decaying and ruinated Remonstrance Plutarch in Theseo may neuerthelesse bee continuing or perpetuall as the shippe wherein Theseus sayled into Candie to subdue the Minotaure kept by the Athenians vnto the time of Pericles euerie planke and piece altered and yet the same shippe as also our common wealth and Vniuersities are the selfe same they were 200. yeres agoe though neuer a man of that age of life To the Minor Your answere hath bin many times before they are not perpetuall as partes of any eldership Pastours and Doctours are perpetuall as an entire office or ministerie in the Church as for Elders as you meane them they are in praedicamento nusquam and therefore they and their giftes are no partes nor yet entire officers in the Church I take your fallacie to be Elder is perpetuall and shippe is perpetual which are partes Ergo the whole Eldership is perpetuall or that your eldership is in the letters of the Alphabet Ergo in the scripture The 5. Demonstration That which is grounded on the generall commaundement of scripture Demonstration is perpetuall but the gouernment by the Eldership in election ordination censure c. is so proued in the seuerall Ergo This Syllogisme is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mere trifling and tumbling vp and downe in cloudes of generalitie Remonstrance a meere daliance and faileth of prouing If elections and ordinations be named in scripture cannot they be done by any means but by such an eldership as you speake of your Minor is false The 6. Demonstration That gouernment which hath power from God to beginne continue and strengthen both the gouernours Demonstration and the people in their callings and obedience to Christ that is perpetuall But so is the gouernment by the eldership because the Apostles vsed none other Ergo The Maior draweth a goodly large compasse Remonstrance yet false as you thinke for the Apostles Euangelists and Prophets had that vertue and yet are ceassed But proue the Minor by some quotation of a Text that your Eldership is so because the Apostles vsed no other and that they vsed it or else I will not beleeue it for your sake or for T. C. your maister for whose sake you beleeue it In the meane season all that you depaint out for your Eldershippe is a picture or poetrie vt pictura posuerit The 1. Demonstration That gouernement which the twelue Apostles Demonstrat and Paul before they consulted together did vniformely agree vpon and neuer repealed must needes be of God and perpetuall But such is the Eldership as all the aduersaries do agree thereupon Ergo To the Maior The Maior is a contradiction to your owne conscience Remonstrance for what reason may this be They did neither conferre vpon it nor consult together nor made another priuie nor asked one another aduise nor by cōmandement enioyned nor by tradition receiued it and yet they did vniformely according to one forme paterne condescend agree vpon it as much to say they did agree that is they did not agree vele contra did not agree Ergo agree To the Minor Such is not the eldership for the Demonstrator hath no scripture no Synod of the Apostles for it It is a shame to charge vs with the acknowledging of it The 8. Demonstration That which hath the same grounds Demonstration which the preaching of the worde and ministration of the Sacraments that is perpetuall but such is the eldershippe grounded vpon the commaundement of Christ and his Apostles and their practise Ergo. To the Minor This is saucily spoken but not so soone proued Remonstrance To make your eldership equiualēt in durablenes with the word of God which is more lasting then heauen and earth for the heauen and earth shal passe but the word of the Lord endureth for euer The eldershippe after your proiect is not so much nor euer was temporarie much lesse perpetuall either by commandement or practise The 9. Demonstration That which hath like grounds to be perpetuall as the Apostles Demonstration Prophetes Euangelistes to be temporall that is perpetuall but such is the Eldership for the gifts of the immediate calling are gone and the gifts of these are left Ergo To the Maior I denie the Maior if you meane euery Apostleshippe Remonstrance Euangelist or Prophets office for there are yet Apostles Legatione pro Christo fungimur wee are Embassadors or Apostles for Christ though not immediatly called thereunto It is shewed before that they be in that place perpetuall aswell as Pastors or Doctors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 till wee all meete together c. Ephes 4. but that which was extraordinary in their offices is ceassed as the immediate calling which the Demonstrator absurdly calleth a gift Pastors also then had gifts extraordinary of healing and working other myracles which though they be ceassed the whole office is not To the Minor There is no proportion betweene ens non ens betweene Eldership which neuer was and the Apostles 12. or 72. that sometime were The giftes for teachers and spirituall gouernours are left but the figment of the Eldership hath no shewe of them What giftes of gouernment hath one of your Elders after imposition of hands more then afore and doe you choose all that can gouerne neither part of your Minor is true for neither are sundrie of the Apostles Euangelists or Prophets giftes ceassed neither haue your Elderships any peculiar giftes to such an office remaining in euery congregation The 10. Demonstration The ordinary remedie to cure diseases is perpetuall Demonstration the Eldership is so for Dic Ecclesiae will cure the diseases of the Church Ergo. To the Maior This Maior will make Apostles Remonstrance Euangelists and Prophetes perpetuall who were such remedies in their times To the Minor Supposing that which ought not be supposed any conclusion foloweth thereupon as for the elderships physicke or chirurgerie al that followeth thereupō is but palliatiua cura a pretēce of cure and if by dic Ecclesiae the eldership be meant then shal the church be an ordinary remedy to cure the diseases of the Church that is of it selfe The 11. Demonstration That gouernment which was vnder the lawe in respect of the substance continued in the Gospel Demonstration and bettered by the accidents that is perpetual but such is the Eldership 12. reason of the 1. cap. Ergo. To the Maior If you can or haue proued the beginning of the eldership in the law Remonstrance
continuance in the Gospel let it stand to the worldes end if not quid dignum tanto feret hic promissor hiatu To the Minor The madde sicknesse of your reason and disproportion appeareth in the answere there There is no correspondence of any eldership either to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the greater number of 70. or of the 23. which is said to be the lesse which do you challenge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speake plainely if you dare or else the reason will retire vpon you thus That gouernment which neuer was vnder law or Gospel Retortion for essence or accidence of Church pollicie may not be continued or begun in the Church The eldership fancied ouer men matters hath neither originall of time nor priuiledge of authoritie Ergo the golden eldership may not begin or continue in the Church The 12. Demonstration If this eldership be alterable being once setled Demonstration either it is in respect of the extraordinary offices ceassed or of the addition of the magistrate Not the first for if the Church doeth neede God doth euer giue giftes extraordinary nor the secōd for the magistrate is to defēd the building of the church Ergo. You might haue saued your paines in the antecedent Remonstrance for alteration foloweth or succeedeth that which was and doth not succeede that which is not That which neuer was in the church admitteth no alteration no more then Tragelapsus or Hyppocentaurus or the man in the moone if you wil haue an issue in the question let it be this where a Christian magistrate is there needeth no eldership it is ex super abundanti and where it wanteth God also hath other wayes then by such mixture of offices to gouerne the church But thus I retort To euery institution of his that hath neede Gods sends gifts extraordinary To your elders that want ordinary giftes fitte for so great gouernment hee sendeth no gift extraordinary Ergo your Eldership is not his institution The 13. Demonstration Either this is the best gouernment and perpetuall or none at all Demonstration but some gouernment must be the best and perpetuall Ergo this is perpetuall This is handsomely concluded this is best and worst Remonstrance or none at all better none at all then neuer a whit the better better nothing then this Anarchicall or tumultuarie gouernment vnlesse perchance you holde praestat malè esse quà m non esse But there is a Christian ecclesiasticall gouernment already though you will not see it Christ in the middest of vs though some do not know it You must proue your disiunctiue Maior a litter better The 14. Demonstration Demonstrat Cofes Helue Tig. Ber. Gen. Pol. Hu. Scot. Horm Cap. 8. No man may iustly forbid de to returne to the olde constitution of the Church of God If you proue this to be the olde and the institution to be for a perpetuitie then this olde constitution is the best Remonstrat The 15. Demonstration Experience teacheth this order was not for one but necessary for all ages Demonstrat Caluin inst lib. 4. cap. 3. sect 8. It is certaine that experience proueth it not so necessarie nor profitable for else the Apostles would not haue instituted and al succeeding ages followed so diuers an order of Church gouernmēt by Byshops which Zanchus thinketh was of the holy Ghost The 16. Demonstration Though the common wealth change her gouernment Demonstra P. Mar. 3. Rom the Church must keepe hers That is Remonstrance the lawes of the eternall lawgiuer for the essentiall matters of the Church gouernment not external pollicie which is variable Belike your meaning is our common wealth must change our Monarchie into Tetrarchie to establish your Tetrarchicall gouernment of the Church The 17. Demonstration Bucer dereg Christi lamenteth that some would not haue the same discipline vsed now adayes which was vsed in the Apostles time Demonstration And so may we lament the foolish and proud resistance which is made to the superioritie of our prelates and gouernours Remonstrance which is no other then that was The 18. Demonstration Whittaker contra Duraeū speaking of discipline Demonstration The Apostles haue written these lawes not for a day or for the first age but for all times to come and that with obtestation 1. Timoth 6. Aetatem habet Remonstrance the man is of discretiō let him answere for him selfe It cannot be he meant your rules of discipline he knoweth the absurditie of it and that your presbyterium est figmentum humanum and is no such commandement as Paul maketh obtestation to haue kept The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator By this euery Parish shall follow Demonstration their Seniors and then there will be so many diuers fashions seeing one may not meddle with another Answer of the Demonstrator The gouernment desired is vniforme for euery Church and admitteth no change not in outwarde ceremonies without a Synode of choise men out of euery Eldership Here is nothing but eldership vpō eldership Remonstrance with reply infinite elderships which the word of God describeth not what neede we exchāge the vniformitie which we already haue for that which is at the least suspicious to any well-sighted eye if not pernitious But if one Eldershippe will breede molestation in the planting of it at all aduentures what a doe will it make in the supplanting thereof Quae nascentia mala sunt ea crescentia peiora They must haue he saith vniformitie euen in ceremonies not to be changed without a Synode of choise men And were not ours so established And yet they will not obserue them May not we make as bolde with their ceremonies and vse as small vniformitie as they doe now The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator If the Eldership being meane men choose an Erle he must be at their becke The answere of the Demonstratour Demonstrat No man chosen is compelled against his will but he that despiseth to consult with others in Gods matters because they be poore reprocheth God that made them 17. Prou. 5. Heare this O ye princes and Earles of the land you must be at the Elders becke and commaunde Remonstrance or else you blaspheme your and their maker Salomons words are 17. Prou. 5.14 cap. 31. verse He that mocketh or he that oppresseth the poore not a word of Elders This is a contradiction to your selfe Any Earle or any man may choose or refuse to take it vpon him because euery one hath a negatiue voyce and yet he must be taken to disdaine if he doe refuse The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator It ouerburdeneth the Parish to prouide for so many Elders to be nourished Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator They shall not neede vnlesse they neede the liberalitie of the Church They shall not neede vnlesse they need This is a fine reciprocation Remonstrance They will neede foorth with
and be idle and busiebodies if they may haue maintenance This Eldership is no vocation by the worde of God and therefore burdensome to the Church But if the Church be not bound to mainteine them then they are none of those Elders that are worthie double honour 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour liberall mainteinance is there chiefly vnderstood as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place doe import The 4. obiection of the Demonstrator It bringeth in a newe Popedome or tyrannie in the Church Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is blasphemie to terme the gouernment so for shall wee not yeelde our obedience to the Scepter of Christ Nay it is a name full of blasphemie Remōstrance with reply and the mysterie of Antichrist to call the bable of their Eldership as they describe it by the name of the Scepter of our blessed king and Sauiour Iesu Christ and to challenge to themselues the obedience due to our Lorde Christ Nay if many Antichrists be worse then one and many tyrants more intoilerable then one then this to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and Popedomes is Mysterium iniquitatis which doeth aduaunce against Christ Hath Christ no Scepter to gouerne his Church by but in their hands Doe all denie Christ to be their king that refuse or haue not your Elderships With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions that yeelde him these premisses to conclude by The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is a kinde of Donatisme to challenge such authoritie ouer Princes Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator It is flatterie to suffer Princes to doe what they list This is Gualters obiection an enemie to discipline Gualter is no enemie to discipline Remonstrance with reply but to Anabaptisticall discipline As for this discipline in vse it is no flatterie of Princes but if your Assertion might sway we should haue flat rebellion and insurrection against al Christian Kings especially against the sacred Maiestie of our most gracious and glorious Prince What can the Papists imagine of greater waight to be holden from them then the Scepter kingdom of Christ as you do And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator It taketh away the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator No more then it did from Dauid in his time not so much as the Bishops do now for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered which the Eldership alloweth and craueth There was no such Eldership in Dauids time Remonstrance with reply Ergo no comparison betweene this and that time But this impeacheth her Maiesties Prerogatiue and preeminence giuen by all the Peeres Lords Spirituall Lords Temporall the Commons in the lower house Conuocation house to set vp a Consistorie ouer all causes and persons yea ouer herselfe For these men dreame that all sheaues must bow to their sheaues which God forbid for they are a quintessence of Eldership aboue Sunne and moone aboue the Imperial firmament It is a slander to say not so much as Bishops for Bishops haue none authoritie of iurisdiction but deriued from the Prince vnto whose regall authoritie of the crowne all commaunding superioritie is annexed But you claime other and farre greater as elsewhere is shewed The 7. obiection of the Demonstrator It transformeth the state of the Cōmon wealth into a meere popularitie Demonstrat and wil alter this gouernment Answere of the Demonstrator No for what damage commeth by this discipline to the Magistracie from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes Because the Prince must gouerne after their direction Remonstrance with reply as the learned discourse doth say The Prince shal be but a feeling member not an head or supreme gouernour of the Church Princes must cast downe their Crownes and submit their Scepters to the scepter of the Presbyterie nay which is more odious as T.C. doth apply must licke vp the dust of their feete that is of the Church which is the Presbyterie Because her Maiestie must not onely be directed by the regencie of the Eldership but vpon their iudgements corrected also They will make lawes call Synodes haue the last appellation and many such like as hath bene afore touched Finally because her Maiestie hath neither dispositiue not cōsultatiue voice she may not be priuie what the Presbyterie doeth by her owne presence or by sending her Attorney with many moe as they shall heare The 8. Obiection of the Demonstrator It will send contention and partialitie in iudgement Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator Where can it be greater then in the Bishops kingdome Yes forsooth greatest of al in the Tetrarches Popedom Remonstrance with reply But this is but to answer with recriminatiō or reaccusing one another Verily as for the Bishops ministerie it is no kingdome neither your kingdom or tetrarchie any ministery They are gouerned by lawes in al their proceedings but you wil haue selfe wil and law of your owne minde blasphemously father it vpon scripture and Gods word and so you do all most absurd and vnequal decrees of your elderships as in many particulars where they reigne is shewed The 9. obiection of the Demonstrator It wil be contemned and so good order neglected Demonstrat Answere Nay God wil procure awe to it It is the Bishops pompe and officers which deserue contempt But before in the 4. it was tyrannie Remonstrance with Reply here contemptible these are contrary God will not honour those that honour not him or who with a newe inuention glorifie themselues If the Bishops are in contempt you are the men that contemne Fastum Platonis maiore fastu As for tyrannie and contempt they are seated well in you For Psal 12. When Impij circumquaque obambulant quando exaltantur vilitas filijs hominum the worde in Hebrew is Zuloth When your Elders shal be exalted and ride vpon the Cherubims when the many or baser sort doe tyrannize it will be a contemptuous tyrannie in deede The 10. obiection of the Demonstrator All alterations be dangerous Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Neuer from Antichrist to Gods obedience this might be Stephen Gardiners Argument All alterations are dangerous Remonstrance with reply where thinges are religiously established as with vs. As for Stephen Gardiner hee made arguments De vera obedientia which you nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who alike with you impugne supremacie of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall can euer answere De mortuis nil nisi bonum pascitur in viuis liuor post fata quiescit So it should be The Assertion The Church must be ruled by the rules of Gods worde c. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon lawe Demonstration The 1. Demonstration All gouernours are to execute their authoritie by the same warrant from which they haue it But the gouernours of the Church
haue their warrant onely from the word 1. cor 12.28 Ergo onely by the word Here be quatuor termini Remonstrance It should be thus framed By what warrant they haue gouernment by the same warrant they must execute it By the warrant of the word they haue their gouernment Ergo by the warrant of the word they must execute it This we graunt that aswell the warrant to haue gouernment as to execute it must be grounded in the word But hereof it followeth not that all particular and specificall points that may happen in and about the execution are set downe in the warrant Else what needed rules of discipline and Church gouernment for France Scotland Gernsey and Geneua to be set downe as they are if they were all afore expressed in Scripture Nay they make them mutable vpon occasions and therefore not commanded by Scripture which nowe in your last platforme you distinguish to be vnderstoode not of the holy discipline which you say is Essentiall but of the Synodicall belike neither holy nor Essentiall and yet this moueable part containeth these Chapters or heades Of the necessitie of vocation the maner of vocation and bounds of it of election of the maner of exercising a mans vocation the office of the Ministers and of the maner of the Liturgie of making Sermons to the Church of Catechisme of other partes of Liturgie of Sacraments of Baptisme of the Supper of fastes of holy dayes of Mariages of Scholes of students in Diuinitie and their exercises of Elders of Elderships of Censures of Church assemblies of Classes or conferences of Synods with the iudgement touching all the Discipline If the warrant both to haue a gouernment and to execute it Absurditie of the Demonstrator be deriued from the commission of the prince doeth it followe that all particular directions that may happen to be needefull about the execution of it are there also set downe But this sort of persons weigh not how their speaches agree either with their owne wordes with their practise with reason or with trueth so they may make a vaine shewe of some appearance to their simple followers that are not able to iudge I doe not thinke this man can be angrie with the letter of the Canon lawe but with the Canonists Sacerdotes iuris the Priestes and interpreters of the Lawe who haue inflicted vpon him some censure of the Lawe I knowe not what the quarrell is but this I am sure he doeth driue out by cursse of the Sanedrim or Presbytery the whole course of the Lawe Me thinke all his fight is Lapitharum pugnae disorderly fight The 2. Demonstration The Church must be gouerned by that which the Ministers must teache Demonstration The Ministers may teach nothing but the word 1. Cor. 11.23 Ergo. Here is another transposition of the parts of the Syllogisme Remonstrance or no Syllogisme at all To the Maior This is strange doctrine there must be no lawe in particular in the Church but the Minister must at first teach This is a confusion of diuinitie and law If the meaning be that by nothing it must be gouerned but what the Minister must teach as it must needes be for else he saith nothing Then is the Maior false the whole Syllogisme more false as consisting al of meere negatiues for only is an implied negatiue as onely man is reasonable is as much as nothing is reasonable besides man and then it standeth thus By nothing must the Church be gouerned but what the Minister must teach The Ministers may teache nothing but the worde Ergo by nothing but the worde must the Church be gouerned If the Syllogisme were good the vntrueth of some part of it might thus appeare By nothing but the word of God must the Church be gouerned Neither your Synodical and variable discipline nor your Eldership is the word of God Ergo by your Synodical discipline or by your Elderships the Church may not be gouerned The 3. Demonstration That which maketh the Church obedient to Christ Demonstrat must be the direction whereby it is gouerned The onely worde maketh the Church obedient to Christ Ergo It is to be gouerned by the rules of Gods word This is a spare demonstration Remonstrance and might be graunted also being truely vnderstoode of the generall rules drawen out of Gods word but there is no coherence in the Maior The Minor is false speaking properly for it is the spirite of God that worketh in vs obedience to Gods will The 4. Demonstration Euery kingdome and houshold must be gouerned by the lawes of the king Demonstrat The Church c. Ergo. Occidit miseros crambe repetita magistros Remonstrance Coleworts twise boiled This was the 2. demonstration of the first Chapter The 5. Demonstration That which was ordeined to destroy the Church of God Demonstrat cannot be a rule to gouerne the same But such is the Canon law Abstract Ergo. To the Maior Scientia non habet inimicum nisi ignorantem Remonstrance This man knoweth not neither Paragraphe nor Rubrick of the law he produceth the Abstract as honest a man as himselfe hee will be tried by his fellow because hee will not willingly trouble the countrey Canon lawe viz. decrees of godly Councils was in vse before Antichrist came in if you take the vulgar computation of Antichrists comming in what thereof is reteined is afore shewed Was there not as heedefull aduise taken and by as sufficient men as met about setting downe of their discipline I would they would but take the paines themselues to conferre the Canon lawe and their owne platforme together for causes Matrimonial that often may happen and then iudge whether they haue prescribed sufficient direction for all or most occurrences that may happen in the compasse of their gouernment The 6. Demonstration That which was inuented by the Dragon to persecute the Church Demonstrat cannot be good for the Church But the Canon law Ergo. If you meane Draco the Athenian he writ his lawes in blood Remonstrance If you meane the Dragon in the Reuelation he writ no lawes vnlesse he be penman of the Presbyterie lawes He might haue made seueral Demonstrations like this one with the Deuil another with Sathan the thirde with Beelzebub c. The 7. Demonstration That which strengtheneth the power of darkenesse and ignorance Demonstration is not good for the Church But the Canon lawe encreaseth Poperie for scarce any officer of knowledge towards it but is a Papist Ergo. To the Minor It is rather as a medicinable poison to expel another Nothing better is to ouerthrowe the Papacie then by the Canons of his owne lawe As for your prosyllogisme It encreaseth Papists Ergo. Poperie the officers are much beholding to you O cancred minde and venemous tooth and mouth There be officers that knowe it and haue studied it which are able to reason more soundly against Poperie then the haughtiest
meane for the practise of their Religion and the outward profession was not authorized If you meane the former say plainely you meane Sanhedrim or Synagoga if Sanhedrim that either as politicall onely or political and Ecclesiastical together and that againe either as the first institution supposed by some or as the deprauation was at the comming of Christ for what was that else but a mixt and compound Presbyterie as in Christs time And then Christ should send vs to the Synagogue which Caluin liketh not and wee should require a gift and an altar as it is Matth. 5.24 v. So this is the greatest improbabilitie in the worlde viz. that as it was amongst the olde or latest Iewes so it must bee in Christs Church Now vnto the reason of the Maior That it is translated vnto vs from them c. You must proue the translation and shewe in one demonstration time place c or any other circumstance to euince it or prooue the erection or ordination of this discipline in steade of that Otherwise to say there was an allusion vnto that or a respectiue looking of Christ vpon that is but a meere collusion with Gods trueth To say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was a session of 72. with the prince c was the Image of your imagined Presbyterie especially a corruption and not to be founde in Scripture but in the Thalmud is to carie away the matter with a bolde forehead and impudent outfacing This I haue also spoken vnto afore in this Chapter To the Minor This is not ad idem For it is one thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 another thing with vs to be excommunicate as for the place of Iohn 9. it deciphreth not whether one or many had authoritie to cast out of the Synagogue but that a decree was so made that he should be cast out not telling how or by how many it was to be executed Finally in saying the Sanhedrim had nothing ceremoniall belike it had the more iudiciall or morall whether it were the one or other it is questionlesse howe it was a corruption of a better thing but caried not the resemblance of the thing which you would haue as is sufficiently afore shewed If Iudicial we are no Iewes and therefore not tied to it if Morall then shew the Commandement and retaine it not by peece meele but either wholy or if but in part say you breake therein the Morall lawe of God The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Cyprian lib. 3. ep 10. would doe nothing in his charge without counsel of Elders Demonstrat and consent of people His meaning is he would do nothing me a priuatim sententia Remonstrance by any domesticall determinations but with the priuitie and counsell and consent of the cleargie that is but in consistorie openly or which was consulted and concluded vpon in Synode publickely before so that nothing should be preiudiciall But these were Ministers that assisted him a Bishop The 7. Demonstration or Allegation The Elders and other officers haue power to absolue as wel as the Bishops Demonstrat Cypr. epist 14. Remonstrance Lib. 3. epist 14. You quote not the booke as for the place it maketh against the presumption of your Elders or any pastoral Elders who gaue ius communicationis without the leaue of the Bishop as certaine then did As for the wordes manus impositionem Episcopi cleri it strengtheneth the hande of authoritie in a Bishop who is perpetual President of his clergie The 8. Allegation or Demonstration For asmuch as absolution longeth vnto all I dare not doe it Demonstrat Idem epist 19. Remonstrance Cyprian saith Praeiudicare ego solum mihi rem communem vendicare non audeo In case the absolution of certaine did concerne many as wel as himselfe he would not doe that to restore the offenders to their state The 9. Allegation or Demonstration If there be any that hath done such a fault that is to be put away from partaking prayer of the Church c. Demonstrat Tertul. apolog cap. 39. there doe beare rule certaine approoued Elders of the Church The wordes Summum futuri iudicij praeiudicium est Remonstrance si quis ita deliquerit vt à communicatione orationis conuentus omnis sancti commercij relegetur praesident probati quique seniores honorem istum non pretio sed testimonio adepti The wordes following giue not the censure of excommunication to these Elders or arbiters any time much lesse perpetually if at that time of persecution they had a censure ouer maners But let it be prooued that they were not Ministers of the worde and Sacraments but meere annual officers and without maintenance of the Church as yours are The 10. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat It helpeth much to make the partie ashamed that he be excommnnicate by the whole Church Augustin lib. 3. contra epistol Parmen the Donat. as also in his bookes of Baptisme against Donatists often Tunc timore percutitur pudore sanatur cum ab vniuersa Ecclesia anathematizatum se cernens Remonstrance so are the wordes when the whole Church shall expell and blame him by their iudgement also as the magistrate by his owne censure The 11. Allegation or Demonstration The Elders haue interest in other censures Demonstrat Hierom epist 1. ad Demetriadē and the Church it selfe in excommunication The wordes are We speake not of all but of such as sometimes the Church it selfe blameth Remonstrance whom sometime it casts away and against whome the censure of Bishops Presbyterorum viz. of Ministers is sharpe Here is no speciall mention of excommunication nor interest of any vnto it much lesse the interest of lay Elders Wee graunt that Bishops had the assistance of Ministers about them both in censures and other matters and so may haue but this argueth not your Elderships interest nor that a Bishop alone may not doe it where the order of the whole Church hath so receiued it The 12. Demonstration or Allegation Demonstrat Bucer de reg Christ li. 1. ca. 9. Paul accuseth the Corinthians because the whole Church had not excommunicate the incestuous person The words are Remonstrance Quod non incestum illum consortio suo eiecissent Because the Corinthians were swollen and had kept companie with such an incestuous person But if the whole Church shoulde doe it then there needes none Eldership neither is this their authoritie otherwise the Church might not vsurpe it from them And if it be the whole Churches the Eldership may not preiudicate them by their determinations aforehand For if they disagree whether shall stand in force The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat P. Mart. 1. cor 5. The Elders had the gouernment in excommunication P. Martyr saith there were two sorts of Elders Remonstrance the one which did teach and minister the Sacraments and did gouerne with the Bishops which Elders we now haue who