Nationall or Prouinciall or Diocesan Synod much lesse a generall Councell but Church-officers or Gouernours in a particular Congregation to iudge of priuate offences as is cleare from the text verses 15 16 17 18 19. II. Will they say that the number of two or three assembled is of an vnerring spirit Is this such a Councell as on which men may rest assured that the iudgement thereof is infallible Neuer any yet durst affirme so much And yet this text speakes but of two or three gathered together III. Here is not a word of not erring nor of infallibilitie in doctrine but of Christ his presence with them But from this it followes not that they cannot erre For the Apostle saith We 1. Cor. 13. 9 10. know in part But with those which the Apostle comprehendeth vnder the word Wee was Christ present And if they knew but in part perfection of knowledge not being to be attained vnto here as the Apostle there teacheth seeing imperfect knowledge may erre it is euident that they might erre though Christ be present with them for he is with his Saints but he doth not perfectly sanctifie them his Spouse hath imperfections in this life neither doth hee perfectly illuminate them but they haue their mistakes Christ was with his before his death yet had they errors and before his Ascension yet he found them ignorant of his spirituall Kingdome Luk. 24. Act. 1. And after his Ascension and comming of the holy Ghost euen Peter was mistaken Act. 10. and other of the Church Act. 11. as before is proued IV. What is this text to proue Popish Councels not to erre For this Scripture speakes of such as are gathered in Christs name whereas those Councels are gathered in the Popes name Christ promiseth to bee with those that are gathered in his name but will it necessarily follow that hee will therefore bee with those that are gathered in the Popes name This stands in neede of proofe especially seeing the Pope is proued to be Antichrist with whom we may be sure Christ will keepe no company Ioh. 6. 13. The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth Answ I. This is a promise vnto the Apostles whose prerogatiue in their Ministery was not to erre because they were the chiefe builders and planters of Christian Religion All other Ministers are but watereâ— II. It is one thing for a Guide to leade aright another for those that should follow to follow aright It therefore will not be necessarily concluded that because a perfect Guide leadeth the way such as come after cannot or doe not goe out of the way For they may not strictly follow the Guide but now and then may slip out of the way through want of eie-sight or dimnesse of sight or through carelesnesse looking some other way not minding the Guide 3. How can our Aduersaries proue that this promise is made to their Popish Councels which are ruled and * See the History of the Councell of Trent and Brocard on Reuel 17. who was at that Councell guided by their Popes and not by Gods Spirit Acts 15 25 28. This Councell erred not Ans 1. This was a Councell gathered of all the 12. Apostles of the Elders at Ierusalem and of the whole Church 2. This had the guiding of the holy Ghost as the text witnesseth 3. This laid the Scriptures for their ground vers 15. and the manifest euidence of the worke of the holy Ghost vers 8 which they tooke for direction in their decrees 4. Here was free libertie of disputation without interruption one attentiuely hearing another without by-respect that the truth might take place What is this to Popish Councels Are there any Apostles Admit they freely the whole Church Are they guided by the holy Ghost and by the verity of holy Scriptures Is libertie there granted to euery one to speake freely If they cannot proue these this text serues not their turne Other Scriptures are obiected as Mat. 16. 18. Luk. 10. 16. 1. Tim. 3. 15. All which are fully answered before As for the place in Heb. 13. 17. it is to be vnderstood not simply but that Teachers are to be obeyed as farre-forth as they doe teach the truth and command what God prescribeth XVI Proposition Whether the Church of Rome be the Catholike Church Confuted by their owne Bible I. IT is so farre from making it the Catholike Church as it no where doth giue it the name of a Church as it doth Corinth chap. 1. Gal. chap. 1. Ephesus Reu. 2. 1. Acts 20. 28. 1. Tim. 3. 15. and so other Churches But no where is this title giuen to Rome Note it well II. It telleth vs that the Faith of Saints at Rome was renowned in the whole World Rom. 1. 8. but not that their Church was spred into all the World Neither saith it that the Faith so commended came out from thence into the World or that it was any other then that which was then in all the World For Rom 1. 5 12 their Bible telleth vs that not from Rome but from Ierusalem it came both to Rome and into other places of the World Ierusalem was the Mother and Head Church and not Rome And of those in Rome it saith Among whom ye are called Rom. 1. 6. so were they not the Vniuersall Church but one particular among the rest which together made vp the whole Church III. Their Bible telleth vs that the Church at Ierusalem was planted by Christ and by his twelue Apostles with whom were the 70. Disciples such Teachers as no other Church euer had at once The Church of Antioch Corinth Ephesus and other moe were planted by the Apostles as we learne from their owne Bible But who first taught at Rome it shewes vs not not Peter I am sure IIII. Their Bible doth at least equall other Churches with it if not preferre them before it 1. In giuing the name of Church to other and not to it for there is mention of Saints at Rome but not of the Church at Rome The title they had not giuen to them 2. It plainely telleth vs that other Churches were first planted by the Apostles but mentioneth not the planting of it by any of them 3. In highly praising of other Churches as the Corinthians for being enriched with all vtterance and all knowledge for comming behind in no gift 1. Cor. 1. 5 7. and for being partakers of the sufferings of Christ 2. Cor. 1. 7. So the Ephesians which Church he calleth the Church of the liuing God the Pillar and ground of truth 1. Tim. 3. 15. and the beleeuers there to be fellow-Citizens with the Saints and of the houshold of God built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the chiefe Corner-stone in whom they wer builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit Eph. 2. 19 20 22. If our Romanists had any such testimony how would they boast Great commendations are giuen to
This place proueth not that the Priests lips euer did keepe knowledge though it be thus read in a Cōmandement but teacheth what his duty was to doe For the next verse following telleth vs what the priests then were But you haue departed out of the way and haue scandalized many in the Law Vers 8. Therefore he made them contemptible and base vers 9. 2. This text maketh for euery Priest without exception but will they haue euery Priest in his teaching to be without error and his word the rule of faith 3. This telleth vs what the people are to seeke for to wit the Law but this as before is proued was written X. Proposition That the Church is no where in Scriptures taken for the inuisible Church Confuted by their owne Bible Heb. 12. 23. ANd the Church of the first borne which are written in Heauen which in the former vers 22. he calleth Mount Sion the city of the liuing God heauenly Ierusalem and the assembly of many thousand angels Is this the visible or inuisible church doth mans eye looke vpon this heauenly company Reu. 14. 1 3. There is the Lambe with his company redeemed from the earth vpon Mount Sion hauing his Fathers Name written in their foreheads Mat. 16. 18. Rom. 8. 29. Eph. 1 22. and 5. 23 32. Col. 1. 18. 1 Pet. 2. 5. Reuel 21. 10 In which places is to be vnderstood the inuisible Church and wheresoeuer it is vnderstood of the mysticall body of Christ it is there the inuisible Church Contraried by Antiquitie The Ancient Fathers found in Scripture an inuisible Church Saint Augustine in Psal 92. concion 2. part 2. of the same Psalme maketh onely the elect from Abel to the worlds end to be the Church this Church is inuisible to man Saint Cyprian saith in Epist 55. That those are the Church which abide in the house of God But can man see who will abide therein Origen in Math. 16. 18. vnderstandeth the Church of such as fall not away but doe ouercome and are not ouercome of those gates of hell but such are knowne onely to God and not discerneable by men nor seene with bodily eyes Saint Gregory in Hom. 19. in Euang. calleth the Catholike Church the Lords Vineyard from iust Abel to the last of the elect in the end of the world Doth Gregory vnderstand this of the visible Church What mortall eye can see this Church of the Elect On Iob cap. 9. in l. moral 35. Hee writeth that Christ and the Church the Head and the Body are one person But who euer saw this with his eyes Gregory therefore found in the Scripture an inuisible Vineyard and Church of Christ Gainesaid by their owne men Caietan taketh that of Mat. 16. 18. for the congregation of the faithful Ferus expoundeth it of the Elect now the Elect are visible to the eye Our Aduersaries alleadge many places to proue the Church most properly to bee called visible as Num. 20. 4. 1. King 8. 14. Act. 20. 28. and 15. 3 4. and 18. 22. and many other Scriptures Answ 1. All these are of particular visible Churches and not vnderstood of the Catholike the former we affirme to be visible but not this 1. The places contradict not this which we hold that the Church somewhere in holy Scriptures is taken for the inuisible Church which they by bringing places to proue a visible Church doe not gainesay XI Proposition That the Church is euer gloriously conspicuous to the world What wee meane when we say that the Church is sometime hidden WHen we speake of an inuisible Church we meane the Church Catholicke in our Creede which we doe beleeue and doe not see nor can see for faith is the ground and euidence of things not seene Heb. 11. 1. also faith and sight are opposed 2. Cor. 5. 7. but wee onely beleeue the Catholicke Church as in our Creed we confesse and therefore is it inuisisible partly in heauen triumphing partly here on earth militant knowne onely to God 2. Tim. 2. 19. and not discerned of men because they be only the Elect of God This is the Church spoken of Heb. 12. 22 23 24. Rom. 2. 28 29. Mat. 16. 18. Eph. 1. 22. and 5. 23. Col. 1. 18. and the hidden ones Psal 83. 3. Besides this Catholicke we hold also a particular Church visible For beginning in Paradise we may finde such a visible Church till the flood from thence to Moses from him vnder whom it mightily increased into thousands of families till the same was planted in Canaan where it became a Nationall Church and neuer wanted some degree of visibility in more or fewer of the members thereof vnto the comming of Christ who taught the people and gathered Disciples which professed him and after his Ascension were the first of those which after were called Christians all being then together in Ierusalem for a time and the only visible Church of Christ vpon earth which visible Church through persecution began to be scattered abroad and the Apostles and Teachers being also dispersed this one Apostolicall Church spred farre and wide into the world neuer being any more entire at once in one place as before it had beene in Ierusalem but from that time to this day hath beene and is in seuerall Congregations which are called Churches euery one bearing the denomination of the whole because all of them doe make but one Church as also for that euery one of them should liuely represent that first Church in Ierusalem from whence these other came into the world in doctrine of the Apostles fellowship Sacraments and prayer with one accord Act. 2. 42 46. This Church taken in a generall notion for all those that professe Christ any where in any sort hath euer beene visible in the world also to the world to Iewes Turks and Pagans But thus taken in so superficiall bare and naked apprehension it comprehendeth all sorts of Assemblies professing Christ whether purely or impurely Orthodoxally or Heretically vniformely or Schismatically and so hath seuerall names Sometimes taken from the City where such Assemblies be as the Church of Ierusalem Antioch Corinth Ephesus Philippi Thessalonica and Colosse Sometime according to the Countries as the Churches of Galatia So we say now The Church of France of England Scotland Sometime from the Sect-Masters names as Arians Macedonians Eutychians Nestorians Donatists as now Brownists Separatists c. Sometime from the People according to their Countrey where they were borne though dwelling elsewhere as wee haue here in London and some other coasts of England the Dutch the French and Italian Churches Sometime from the Coasts as the East and West Church Sometime from the Language vsed in the publike worship as the Greeke Church and the Latine Church Sometimes from the opinions held as Anabaptists Vbiquitaries and Familists And thus come we and our Aduersaries to be diuersly named though we be all in generall called Christians yet wee call them that are yoaked vnder the B.
the Church at Colosse Col. 1. 4 6. for their stedfast faith loue and fruit of the Gospell and for their order which the Apostle ioyed to behold cha 2. 5. What shal I speak of the praises of the 1. Thes 1. 3 6. 2. 13 14. 3. 6. 4. 10. 2. Thes 1. 3 4. 2. 13. Thessalonians for their worke of Faith growing exceedingly their labour of loue their patience of hope their abounding in charitie being followers of the Apostles and the Churches of God in Iury receiuing the Word of God as the Word of God in much tribulation with ioy of the holy Ghost To which prayses the beleeuers at Rome did not then attaine though they had their prayses and those great too Rom. 15. 14. but not comparable with those Churches Lastly in shewing how the Apostles honoured some other Churches by their writings As Corinth by two Epistles so Ephesus by one from Saint Paul by another from Saint Iohn Reuel 2. 1. who wrote to that Church in the first place the heauenly booke of the Reuelation in like sort were two written to the Thessalonians and but one to Rome 5. It is cleare by their own Bible that Peter whō they claime falsely for their first Pope wrote two Epistles which are called Catholike but neither of them was written to Rome as the Catholike Church neither maketh he any mention of it And S. Paul writeth to the Saints at Rome as to a particular company and not as any Head-Church before and aboue other The Thessalonians are commended for being followers of the Churches of God in Iudea but not for following those at Rome to whom when Saint Paul wrote hee saith Rom. 1. 6. that they were called among others that in other Nations were called but it is not said aboue other Nations 6. Their Bible telleth vs that S. Paul wrote his Epistle to them that were in Rome called Saints and beloued of God so that they were within that City or there-about but the Catholike Church was then dispersed for the Gospell at that time had gone into all the World and was preached to euery creature vnder Heauen Col. 1. 6 23. In their Bible is mention Acts 2. made of thirtie Kingdomes and Countries ten Ilands and almost three score famous Cities out of Iury in and amongst the Gentiles where the Gospell had been preached among whom Rome was but one and had obteined at the most praises common with other Churches Their titles were Saints Rom. 1. 7. beloued of God also brethren Rom. 10. 1. and 12. 1. and 15. 14 30. Their faith the same that was among all Nations Rom. 1. 5. called the common Faith vers 12. and therefore spoken of throughout the whole World vers 8. Their obedience was published to euery place Rom. 16. 19. Not for that their Faith and obedience did surpasse others for the words are deliuered barely your faith your obedience not with prayses as the Faith and obedience of the Colossians and Thessalonians accompanied with loue and aboundant charity with patience and ioy of the holy Ghost in great afflictions and so forth but for that Rome was the sease of the Empire and the publishing of their faith and obedience might bee a meanes to draw on others which dwelt in other places Contraried by Antiquitie We may reade that the chiefe of the Church of Rome was but at first a Bishop and his Church but a Drocesan Church Then hee became an Archbishop and so his Church but a Prouinciall Church After he got to be a Patriarch and so his Church but Patriarchall as some other were then equall with him as that of Antioch Alexandria Ierusalem and Constantinople All this time he was no Vniuersall Bishop till bloody Phocas gaue him that title and so his Church not Vniuersall till she also became the great whore and so might well be common the kings of the earth committing fornication with her as was foretold Reuel 17. It is said that Athanasius as Liberius confesseth was separated Epist ad Vrsac Valent. in Baron Annal. to 3. Ann. 357. n◠44. from the communion of the Church of Rome But may we iudge so holy a man and so valiant a Champion for the truth to be therefore separated from the Catholicke Church Polycrates and the Easterne Churches did not condiscend to the Church of Rome in the keeping of Easter did they therefore dissent from the Catholicke Church who was he in those dayes that had so much as a dreame thereof S. Ierome in Catal. Fortunat. reproueth the custome of the Church of Rome and Epist ad Euagr. he preferreth the custome of the Catholicke Church he held not Rome then the Catholicke Church but distinguisheth them asunder one from another The title of Catholicke was long before it came to be added to the Church and when it was vsed many Churches were so called The Romane Church then was not the Catholicke Church Gainesayd by some of their owne Aeneas Syluius who was Pope writeth That before the Epist 30 1. Councell of Nice small respect was had to the Church of Rome Now it cannot be imagined that all the time before the learned Fathers and holy Martyrs should be said to haue had small respect to the Catholicke Church the mother of euery particular Church because they had small respect to the Church of Rome If Aeneas Syluius saith true then was not Rome held the Catholike Church of those who so smally respected her Pighius lib. 6. ca. 3. de Eccl. Hierarch saith Who did euer yet by the Church of Rome vnderstand the Vniuersall Church He then at that time had not learned this point to hold the Church of Rome for the Catholicke Church Francisc Picus Theorem 13. saith The Church of Rome is a particular Church The obiected Scriptures answered Psal 2. 8. Aske of me and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritance c. Luk. 1 33 He shall reigne ouer the house of Iacob for euer and of his kingdome there shall be no end Answ Who is read in Scripture but knoweth these to be spoken of Christs Kingdome and not of the Popes iurisdiction Where is here Pope or Rome expressed But the Gagger proueth hereby the Church of Christ Catholicke which we acknowledge But saith he None of these promises haue beene so much verified as they haue beene in the Church of Rome and therefore is she onely the Catholicke Church In that he saith Not so much verified as of Rome he grants it to haue beene verified of other Churches though not so much he cannot therefore from a higher degree conclude that she is onely the Church whereof the promises are made The words are spoken of Christs Kingdom in plain termes expressed And is his Kingdome now become the Romish Iurisdiction onely His Kingdome after he assumed our nature began before the Church of Rome had a being And can any thinke that Dauid in the Psalme or the Angell speaking the words
when hee liued on the earth Thirdly if but so what is this to proue that Saints then and so now doe know euery mans estate particularly and what passeth here vpon earth Ioh. 5. 45. There is one that accuseth you euen Moses Answ 1. By Moses is not meant his person but his writings among them as the verses 46. and 47. doe declare Secondly it is absurd to make the Saints in Heauen accusers Papists will haue them Intercessors whose propertie is not to accuse in any sort but to pray for them which pray to them Thirdly Christ saith they trust in Moses Will a Saint in heauen bee so displeased with them and so faile them that trust in him that hee will goe and accuse them vnto God Such then become miserable Patrons Doth their Legend afford any such examples Fourthly Christs saying that they trusted in Moses must not be vnderstood of his person but of his writings For the Iewes did not beleeue in man A curse as is before deliuered they knew to be pronounced against them which trusted in man Reu. 12. 10. The accuser of the brethren is cast downe which accused them before God day and night Answ In the former they make Moses an accuser of some and so in that respect a companion with the diuell heere Is not this a wise Gagger But how can they proue hence that Saints in Heauen know what is done here Because the diuell knowes what euils are here done A goodly reason But doe not wee know that the Diuell is here on earth that hee compasseth the earth to and fro Hee stirres vp Dauid to number the people hee is author of much mischiefe hee must then know many things And will it hence follow therefore that soules which remaine continually in heauen must know what is here done in earth 2. King 6. 12. Elisha telleth what words the King of Syria spake being farre from him So 2. King 5. 26. Elisha saw what passed between Naaman and Gehezi 1. Cor. 12. Saint Paul was rapt vp into the third Heauen Act. 7. Steuen in earth saw Christ in heauen Answ 1. These places tell vs that these things were so Let them bring vs Scriptures which will affirme as much of the soules in heauen heere seeing things in earth and we will beleeue But this these places proue not Secondly these were extraordinarie reuelations and giue no warrant of ordinarie knowledge In such things from extraordinarie acts to ordinarie is no sound arguing For the Prophets did not know all things Elisha knew not the cause of the Shunamites comming 2. King 4. 27. nor Samuel when he went to lesse his house whom God would chuse 1. Sam. 16. 6. Thirdly all these are instances of knowledge in men on earth of things done on earth or of things which being on earth they saw in heauen but not a word what those in heauen saw here vpon earth which is the onely point in question The Gagger quoteth moe places As Mat. 19. 28. But this is nothing to purpose And the place is meant of all appearing before Christ at the last day whom the Apostles shall then see Reu. 2. 26. 1. Here is a promise accomplished in Christ See D. White his last booke p 309. 310 311 312. in answer to this as also to Reu. 3. 12. 1. Cor. 13. 9. 5. 10. not cited by the Gagger Psal 2. in whom the Saints haue this power See Augustine Beda and many other cited by Fulke on this place for this sense Secondly this is to bee vnderstood of the Saints power ouer those out of the Church For here they are to bee ruled with a rodde of iron and to be broken in pieces But the Saints departed Papists make Protectors of others and not breakers of them to shiuers Act. 5. 3. This was an extraordinarie manifestation of Ananias his hypocrisie to Peter If they can proue that God doth reueale mens actions here to Saints in Heauen wee yeeld 1. Sam. 28. 14. Here is the Diuell appearing in Samuelt likenesse what hence this Gagger will gather for Saints knowledge in heauen I know not III. Scriptures obiected that Saints departed doe pray for vs particularly answered Reu. 5. 8. The 24. Elders fell downe before the Lambe hauing euery one of them Harps and golden Vials full of odours which are the prayers of the Saints Answ 1. This was in a vision and traunce and the words allegoricall and therefore cannot bee the ground of Doctrine of faith Secondly here is not meant the Saints departed but these foure and twenty are the type of the whole Church here on earth verse 10. Thirdly these prayers of the Saints which Saints are on earth chap. 8. 3. may be the prayers of the foure and twenty Elders themselues yet called the prayers of the Saints as if they were the prayers of others First for that these represent the whole Church verse 9. which consists of Saints Secondly because a Church or Congregation of people gathered together pray not onely for themselues but for all the Saints of God and so their hearts here being as Vials full of the grace of Prayer as it were odours are esteemed the prayers of all Saints Fourthly Tho. Aquinas Rich. de Sco. Victore Haymo Beda and other doe expound this place of the Church militant 2. Mach. 15. 14. Then Onias answered c. Where he telleth how Ieremy prayed for the people Answ 1. This is an Apocryphal Booke Secondly this speech of Onias touching Ieremies praying was but Iudas his dreame For it is said in verse 11. that he told the souldiers al this as his dreame to encourage them to fight It is weake architecture to build vpon a dreame doctrines of faith Thirdly neither did Iudas much regard the helpe of Ieremies prayer For in the same Chapter hee himselfe did pray verse 21 22 23. but intreated not Ieremy to pray for him but made his suite onely to God Ier. 15. 1. Though Moses and Samuel stood before me c. Answ 1. These words are spoken onely by way of supposition as if God had said If Moses and Samuel were now before mee as they were when they liued on earth praying for these people I should not regard them Is it good reasoning from a suppositiue speech to a reall act indeed Secondly they themselues say that all the Fathers that were before Christ were in Limbus Patrum and so could not know our affaires in particular to pray for vs. Baruch 3. 4. Heare now the prayers of the dead Israelites Answ 1. This booke is Apocryphal Secondly were not these in the place called Limbus Patrum How could they then see all things in the face of God from whose presence they were kept Thirdly heere is mention of the prayers of dead Israelites but not for whom they prayed It is not said they prayed for others on earth They might pray for themselues in Limbo Fourthly by dead Israelites are not here to bee vnderstood such as were departed