intangle mens consciences by wrangling and cauilling whiles first he requireth euident demonstrations to proue a probable doctrine and secondly dissembleth the true state of the question confounding the absolute proposition and the proofes thereof with the modall which distinction doth expresse the true state of the question and discouereth both his fraude and weakenesse not onely in this but almost in all the rest of his Replyes and thirdly he concealeth the answere which I gaue to this argument taken from the authoritie of the Popes Breues and of other learned men and also the reasons why so many learned Catholikes whose bookes are now extant haue from the time of Pope Gregorie the seuenth defended this opinion for the Popes power to depose Princes And thus much concerning my Aduersaries second admonition the weakenesse whereof will also presently more cleerely appeare by my answere to his third and fourth admonition 27 Therefore it is to be considered for the third point saith my Aduersarie h Nu. 15. what Widdrington meaneth by a probable opinion or a probable answere which no doubt he vnderstandeth so that whatsoeuer he saith must be held for probable how absurd so euer it be for otherwise he could not challenge to himselfe such a priuiledge of probabilitie as he doth his arguments and answers being so weake and impertinent as you shall finde them to be in which respect he is faine to dissemble the answeres already made by some to his former arguments and authorities in his Apologie whereto he now remitteth his Reader very often without taking so much as any knowledge of the confutation thereof as though the same had neuer been answered or that euery assertion or position of his being once laid downe must needs stand for an eternall law or were a decree of the Medes and Persians i Dan 6. quod non licet immutari 28 But not to returne these bitter speeches of my Aduersarie backe vpon himselfe which with the same facilitie and with farre better reason I might doe first It is very vntrue that I take probable for whatsoeuer I doe say how absurd so euer it be as this man if it were lawfull for mee to vse his absurd word very absurdly affirmeth that without doubt I doe Neither doe I take probable for that which hath onely a shew of probabilitie as Cicero tooke probable in his Paradoxes but I take probable as Philosophers and Diuines doe take it as it is distinguished from demonstratiue and fallacious to wit for that which is approued by wise and learned men in the art which they professe which therefore as in speculation may be embraced without any imputation of errour or folly so in practise it may bee followed without any note of imprudence or sinne As in a matter of Physicke that is accounted probable which is approued by learned Physitions of Law by learned Lawiers and of Diuinitie by learned Catholike Diuines Secondly it is also vntrue that I haue in my Theologicall Disputation dissembled the answeres made by some to my former arguments and authorities in my Apologie whereto I remit my Reader oftentimes considering that my Theologicall Disputation was wholly finished and in the presse before the Replyes of D. Schulkenius and of D. Weston and also my Aduersaries Supplement were published so that I could take no notice of them in my Disputation for which cause I was constrained to touch them briefely onely in an Admonition to the Reader But my Aduersarie himselfe to make his owne Replyes to seeme the more probable and my answeres absurd foolish impertinent ridiculous for so hee is pleased to call them is not ashamed to dissemble in many points the true state of the question and also the answeres which in my Theological Disputation I made to his chiefest Replyes especially those whereby hee laboureth to terrifie the timerous consciences of vnlearned Catholikes with the pretence of his new Catholike faith with the authoritie of the Popes Breues and the testimonies of so many learned men who haue condemned the oath as containing in it many things flat contrarie to faith and saluation 29. Now let vs see his fourth consideration by which the Reader may perceiue how insufficiently he declareth what is a probable argument or opinion and how little he satisfieth the vnderstanding of vnlearned Catholikes who by his obscure and confuse description of a probable argument cannot perceiue what argument or opinion is probable k Num. 17. Fourthly saith he it is to be considered that to make an argument or proofe probable it sufficeth not that it seeme good and true in it selfe but it must also be able in some sort to counterpoyse the arguments and proofes of the contrary opinion for often it falleth out that the reasons of one part are so pregnant that they seeme to conuince and yet when they are weighed with the reasons of the other part they are neither pregnant nor so much as probable for according to the old prouerbe one tale is good vntill an other be heard 30. To which purpose it is to be considered that many heretikes and namely the Arians of whom there are many euen at this day both doe and may well pretend a farre greater probabilitie for their opinion than Widdrington doth or can for his considering their aboundant allegation of Scriptures their subtill shifts in answering the arguments and obiections of the Catholikes the great multitude of learned men of their Sect in times past and their dignitie in the Church the Conuenticles assembled and held in their fauour and finally the ample propagation of their opinion and Sect especially in the time of Constantius the Emperour For which respects their followers at this day doe hold their doctrine not only for probable but also for infallibly true and condemne the contrary for pernicious heresie whereas Widdringtons grounds and proofes of his opinion seeme to himselfe so weake that he dare not affirme them to be more then probable 31. Therefore as there is no good Christian that doth now hold the arguments of the Arrians to be so much as probable considering the potent reasons and proofes of the Catholike doctrine in that point so albeit the arguments and authorities which Widdrington produceth were they farre more plausible and pregnant then they are yet no Catholike could esteeme them to be any way probable being compared and ballanced with the irrefregable proofes of the other part I meane the arguments and necessarie consequences drawne from the holy Scriptures the authoritie of almost all the learned Doctors and Diuines that haue written of that point and the practise of the Church for some hundreths of yeares confirmed by nine or ten Councells l Sâ—e Supplem chap. 2. num 76. 77. whereof some haue been the greatest that euer were in Gods Church and therefore I say that all this being well weighed no Catholike man of sound wit or iudgment can imagine this mans arguments which he himselfe houldeth but for probable to haue
dependeth vpon the other now his argument proceedeth thus Members doe depend vpon the head the Pope is head of the Church therefore Kings who are members of the Church doe depend vpon the Pope which are two distinct arguments yet both of them fallacious and insufficient to proue that the temporall power it selfe or which is all one that temporall Kings in temporall causes are subiect to the Pope as you haue seene before 9. Thirdly whereas Card. Bellarmine affirmeth that the assertion of D. Barclay comparing these two powers to two shoulders of the Church which are connected to one head who is Christ doth appertaine to the heresie of this time which affirmeth that the Pope is not the visible head of the Church and that D. Barclay doth of his owne accord grant thus much M. Iohn Barclay answereth that Card. Bellarmine doth in this both slander D. Barclay and also maketh the Church and Pope odious to Princes For what Protestant reading this may not with very good reason conclude that Catholikes according to Card. Bellarmines doctrin when they say that the Pope is the visible head of the Church and that this is a point of Catholike-faith doe vnderstand that he is head and Gouernour not onely in Ecclesiasticall but also in ciuill causes what wise men of this world will not relate these sayings to Princes and what Prince can without indignation here them Neither did D. Barclay euer make any doubt but that the Pope Christs Vicar in earth was head in Ecclesiasticall causes neither did Catholike faith euer teach that he was head in ciuill causes Only Christ is head of Popes and Kings the chiefe head I say of the Church Whereupon S. Austin doth affirme f In serm de remiss pec refertur 1. q. 1. can Vt eui denter that an excommunicated person is out of the Church and out of the body whereof Christ is the head 10. And therefore that similitude betweene the soule and body compounding one man and the spirituall and ciuill power compounding one Church or rather one Christian common wealth or Christian world is no fit similitude and it is wrongfully ascribed to S. Gregorie Nazianzene by Card. Bellarmine as I shewed before g Cap. 3. for that the soule is as the forme and the body as the matter compounding one essentiall thing which is man but the ciuill power is not as the matter nor the spirituall as the forme compounding one essentiall body which is the Church of Christ but if we will haue them to compound one totall body which is the Church taking the Church for the Christian world consisting both of the temporal and spirituall power which are in Christians whereof Christ or God and not the Pope is the head they are onely integrall to vse the termes of Philosophers and not essentiall parts neither doe they compound one essentiall but only one integrall compound in which kinde of compound it is not necessary that one part doth depend vpon the other as hath beene now conuinced but all must of necessitie depend vpon the head although in an essentiall compound one part must of necessitie depend vpon the other for that in such a compound one part must bee as the matter and the other as the forme as I declared before 11. Wherefore the spirituall and ciuill power in the Church taking the Church for the Christian world containing in it both powers or which is all one for the company of all Christians in whome are both powers or both subiections are not like to the soule and body which are essentiall parts of man but they are as two shoulders or two sides which are only integrall parts of mans body both which powers although each of them in their kinde bee a visible head the one of temporals the other of spirituals and in that respect doe formally make two totall bodies to wit earthly kingdomes whereof temporall Princes are the head and the spirituall kingdome or Church of Christ whereof the Pope is the chiefe visible head yet they are connected to one celestiall and inuisible head which is Christ in which respect they make one totall body whereof Christ onely and not the Pope is head which may bee called the Christian world consisting of earthly kingdomes and the spirituall kingdome or Church of Christ 12. Neither is it true that these two powers be of so diuerse a kinde that they cannot be well compared to two shoulders for both of them are powers and in that respect of the same kinde and as powers they are compared to two shoulders And why may they not bee aptly compared to two shoulders seeing that there is nothing more strong and more neere to the head in the Christian common-wealth Neither is it materiall that one is a more strong shoulder then the other for in mans body the right arme is stronger then the left and yet one is not more an arme then the other May not I pray you two pillars of a diuerse kinde one of brasse the other of marble bee aptly compared one with the other in that both of them are pillars The temporall and the ciuill power or Kings as Kings and hauing temporall authoritie and Bishops as Bishops and hauing spirituall power are as two visible pillars which doe sustaine the edifice of the Christian world or common-wealth the one in temporalls the other in spirituals they are as two shoulders which as in mans body are next vnder the head and all the other inferiour members doe depend vpon them so also they are next vnder God the head of both and all other inferiour members of the Christian world doe depend vpon them nay being compared to the inferiour members of the Christian world they are also as two visible and ministeriall heads from whence as from the head of mans body which is the roote beginning and foundation of all sense and motion in all the inferiour parts all spirituall and temporall directions Lawes and punishments doe proceed 13. And truely if D. Barclay must bee taxed of heresie for comparing the temporall and spirituall power in the Church or Christian world for now the Church and Christian world which consisteth of both powers is taken for all one to two shoulders and for affirming that Christ only is the chiefe celestial and invisible head of both these powers and that Kings and Popes are two ministeriall heads thereof although both of them are also principall in their owne kinde and in the nature of a visible head then must Hugo de S. Victore be taxed of heresie when he compareth i Lib. 2. de Saâ—ram p. 2. ca. 3. these two powers to two sides affirming that Lay-men who haue care of earthly things are the left side of this body and Clergie men who do minister spirituall things are the right and that earthly power hath the King for the head and the spirituall hath the Pope for head Lo heere two sides and consequently two shoulders and two
extra de sententia re iudicata cap. Ad Apostolicae in sexto where also of this it is noted by all men An other is concerning the discord betwixt Henry the Emperour and Robert King of Sicily and the sentence of treason published by the Emperour against him which Decree is in Clementina de sententia re iudicata cap. Pastoralis Another is in Clementina prima de Iureiurando that the Emperour is bound to sweare allegiance to the Pope and concerning some authoritie of the Pope ouer the Emperour Which Decretalls whether they be iust or no God he knoweth For I without preiudice to sounder aduice do beleeue and if it should be erroneous I recall it that none of them be agreeable to right Yea I beleeue that they are published against the rights and libertie of the Empire and I doe thinke that by God they were instituted distinct powers whereof I haue noted sufficiently lege prima Cod. de Summa Trinitate Fide Catholica Thus Albericus 3 Obserue now good Reader how sleightly D. Sculckenius would shift of this authoritie which is so plaine and manifest Albericus saith he speaketh wauering and altogether doubtfull and he addeth and if it should be erroneous I recall it and he is conuinced of errour by Azor lib. 10. cap. 6. q. 3. These be all the exceptions that D. Schulckenius taketh against this authority But first this word doubtfull or wauering as out of Vasquez I obserued in my Theologicall Disputation d Cap. 10. sec 2. nu 18. 19. 20. 81. may be taken two manner of waies either when one is so doubtfull that he hath no determinate assent of either part but remaineth perplex betwixt both iudging neither part to be either true or false in which sense that word altogether doubtfull which D. Schulkenius vseth here if he will not speake improperly can only be taken and when we are thus doubtfull concerning any matter we are alwaies bound to chuse the surer part neither is it lawfull to do any thing with a doubtfull conscience taking doubtfull in this sense Or else the word doubtfull may be taken when wee haue a determinate assent or iudgement that one part is true or false but yet we are not certaine and therefore haue some feare of the contrarie which feare doth not exclude a determinate assent and iudgement that one part is true for euery assent iudgement or opinion which is only probable doth alwaies imply a feare but feare consisteth in this that he who is fearefull or iudgeth with feare hath two assents or iudgements the one direct whereby he iudgeth determinately that one part is true the other reflexe whereby he iudgeth that although he thinketh it true yet in very deede it may be false for that it is not certaine but Disputable and in controuersie among Doctours and therefore only probable and when we are thus doubtfull or fearefull concerning any matter we are not bound to chuse the surer part but it is sufficient to chuse that which is probable neither is it vnlawfull to doe any thing with such a doubtfull or fearefull conscience as in that place I declared out of Vasquez 4. Now if D. Schulckenius by those wordes wauering and altogether doubtfull vnderstand as of necessitie he must if he will speake properly that Albericus had no determinate assent iudgement or opinion concerning the vniustice of those Decretalls this is manifestly false and those words I doe beleeue that they are not agreeable to right and I doe beleeue that they are published against the rights and libertie of the Empire c. doe clearely conuince D. Schulkenius of apparant vntruth But if D. Schulckenius by those words wauering and altogether doubtfull doe onely meane that Albericus was indeed of opinion that those Decretalls were vniust yet he did not hold his opinion for certaine and without all controuersie and therefore was not obstinate in his owne opinion but was readie to recall it if it should proue to be erroneous and that hee would not condemne other men that should thinke the contrarie as now adaies it is too frequent to condemne other men this is very true for so much only doe import those his wordes and I do beleeue vnder correction or without preiudice to sounder aduise and if it should be erroneous I recall it this neuerthelesse doth not hinder but that we haue the opinion of a man excellently learned and of a Classicall Doctour that the sentence of deposition denounced against Frederike the Emperour by Pope Innocent the fourth in the presence of the Councell of Lyons and three other famous Decrees of Popes registred in the Canon Law touching the Popes power to dispose of temporalls were vniust and made against the rights and libertie of the Empire 5. Secondly but Albericus is conuinced saith D. Schulckenius of error by Azor. But besides that this letteth not but that Albericus is of opinion that the Pope hath no power to depose Princes this also is euen as true as that which D. Schulckenius said before concerning the errours which he said Posseuine had obserued in Trithemius his historie For besides that all the arguments which Azor bringeth to proue in generall the Popes authoritie ouer the Emperour in temporalls are but triuiall and haue been alreadie answered partly by D. Barclay partly by my selfe and now of late very exactly by Mr. Iohn Barclay to whom as yet no answere hath beene made one only argument in particular Azor vrgeth against Albericus which is this that the Romane Emperour was instituted by the authoritie of the Church by whose grant also the Romane Empire was translated from the Grecians to the Germanes or Frenchmen and that he is created as a Patron defendour Protector and Tutour of the Church from whence he inferreth that the Pope did not put his sickle into another mans haruest but did vse his owne right when hee made that Canon concerning the election of the Emperour and when he exacteth an oath of the Emperour 6. But that this is no conuincing proofe I shewed clearely in my Apologie c Num 404. seq For the Romane Empire was not instituted by the authoritie of the Romane Church seeing that he was instituted before there was any Romane Church at all and continued for a long time together the Soueraigne Lord in temporalls of the Romane Church Neither was the Romane Empire translated from the Grecians to the Germans or French men by the grant of the Romane Church if by the Romane Church be meant onely the Cleargie of Rome but it was translated by the grant suffrages and authoritie also of the Laitie who in the west parts were subiect to the Romane Empire True also it is that all Catholike Princes ought to be Patrons defenders and protectours of the Romane Church but the Romane Emperour more specially they being children and members of the Catholike Romane Church and euery member is bound to defend eath other but especially to defend the head
heard of before for which cause it was called by Sigebert a noueltie not to say an heresie and since that time there hath euer beene a great controuersie saith Azor a Tom. 2. lib. 11. cap. 5. q. 8. concerning this point betwixt Emperours and Kings on the one side and the Bishops or Popes of Rome on the other and the Schoolemen are at variance about the same and as yet the Iudge hath not decided it saith Trithemius and very many Doctours are of opinion that the Pope hath no such authoritie saith Almainus and the State of France hath euer maintained the same for certaine saith Pithaeus and the late practise of the Parliament of Paris to omit all the authorities of our learned Countreymen doth most clearely confirme the same it is neither reason nor conscience to charge Sigebert with Schisme for impugning that new doctrine and practise which was neuer heard of before in the Church of God And therefore many complained saith Azâ—â— in the same place that Gregorie the seuenth did depriâ—e Henry the fourth of the administration of the Empire 24 For although the Bishops of Rome saith Onuphrius a man as Posseuine confesseth of exceeding great reading and whom Paulus Manutius calleth a deuourer of Histories were before honoured as the heads of Christian Religion and the Vicars of Christ and the Successours of Peter yet their authoritie was not extended any farther then either in declaring or maintayning positions of faith But yet they were subiect to the Emperours all things were done at the Emperours backe they were created by them and the Pope of Rome durst not presume to iudge or decree any thing concerning them Gregorie the seuenth the first of all the Bishops of Rome being aided with the forces of the Nortmans trusting in the riches of Countesse Mathildis a woman most potent in Italie and being encouraged with the discord of the German Princes who were at ciuill warre among them selues contrarie to the custome of his ancestours contemning the authoritie and power of the Emperour when hee had gotten the Popedome did presume I doe not say to excommunicate but also to depriue the Emperour by whom if he was not chosen he was at the least confirmed of his Kingdome and Empire A thing not heard of before that age For the fables which are carried abroad of Arcadius Anastasius Leo Iconomachus I do nothing regard Thus Onuphrius b Lib 4. de varia creat Rom Pont. 25 Lastly it is also true that Sigeberts bookes in answer to the letters of Pope Gregorie and Pope Paschalis are put in the Catalogue of forbidden bookes but that they are forbidden or condemned by the Catholike Church or the Catholike Romane Church as D. Schulckenius affirmeth vnlesse by the Catholike Church or Catholike Romane Church hee vnderstand those few Cardinalls and Diuines of Rome who are appointed by the Pope for the examining permitting and forbidding of bookes which were a very strange and ouer-strict description of the Catholike Church is altogether vntrue Neither is it knowne for what cause those bookes of Sigebert are put in the Catalogue of forbidden bookes as likewise two bookes of mine written especially against Card Bellarmine haue of late by a speciall decree of the aforesaid Cardinalls and especially of Card Bellarmine who hath been pleased to be a Iudge witnesse and accuser in his owne cause been prohibited and I vnder paine of Ecclesiasticall Censures commanded to purge my selfe forthwith but the cause wherefore they are forbidden is not therein expressed neither as yet haue they giuen me to vnderstand of what crime either in particular or in generall I am to purge my selfe although in my purgation written to his Holinesse long agoe c The 24. of Iune 1614. I haue most humbly and instantly desired it and haue protested to bee most ready to purge my selfe of any crime whatsoeuer I shall know to haue committed which their strange proceeding doth clearely argue that they haue no small distrust in their cause and that the doctrine for the Popes power to depose Princes is not so cleare a point of faith as Card Bellarmine and his followers would haue the Popes Holinesse and the Christian world with out sufficient grounds to beleeue 26 Seeing therefore that there be many causes wherefore bookes may be forbidden and which in generall are reduced to these two heads either that they are repugnant to faith or else to good manners which the late instructions for the correcting of bookes published by the commandement of Pope Clement the eight do in so large yet doubtfull a manner extend that scarse any booke can be found which treateth of the Popes authoritie but some Correctour or other may easily except against it as those bookes are to be corrected which are against Ecclesiasticall libertie immunitie and Iurisdiction so that if a Canonist be the Corrector he will haue that blotted ouâ— which denyeth the Popes direct power in temporalls and that Cleargie are not exempted by the law of God and nature from the coerciue power of Princes c. vnlesse it can be proued that Sigebert bookes were put in the Catalogue of prohibited bookes for that they impugned the doctrine for the Popes power to depose Princes no good argument can be drawne from that Catalogue to impeach Sigeberts credit for the impugning of that doctrine Neither can Card Baronius nor Card Bellarmine be excused from greeuous detraction in charging Sigebert who both in his life and after his death was accounted a learned vertuous and religious Catholike with that execrable crime of schisme for which at the day of iudgement they shall render an exact account vnlesse they can proue that he did separate himselfe from the vnitie of the Church or disobey the Popes command as not acknowledging him to be the true visible head of the Church and the Successour of S. Peter 27 I omit now to declare how Catholikes ought to carry themselues in times of Schisme when more then one pretend to be the true and rightfull Pope and whether those who adhere to a false Pope perswading themselues for probable reasons that hee is the true and lawfull Pope are to be condemned of Schisme and to bee accounted formall Schismatikes concerning which question read Iohn Gerson in his Treatise therof This only at this present I will demand that if to reiect the testimonie of Sigebert or any such like Authour it be sufficient without any other proofe to say as Mr Fitzherbert answereth that they liuing in the time of the Emperours and Kings that were deposed wrote partially in their fauour why may it not with the same facilitie bee answered to the authorities of many others of the contrarie side that they liuing in the time of the Popes who tooke vpon them to depose Kings and Emperours for this hath euer been a great controuersie saith Azor betwixt Kings and Emperours on the one side and the Bishops of Rome on the other wrote partially in their fauour May
of Princes be in this sense hereticall as in very deed it is And therfore all those Priests who then were Prisoners in Newgate and the Gate-house and now are in Wisbeech being examined by his Maiestses Commissioners vpon certaine articles and did directly answere to the questions which were propounded did agree in this that it was directly and absolutely murther for any man to take away the life of his Maiesty and that the Church could not define it to be lawfull for any man to kill his Maiesty although for the point of deposing some of them answered otherwise some others declined the question and many of them did insinuate that as yet this point touching the Popes power to dedose Princes is not defined by the Church 103 And although his Maiesty doth alleage much more Scripture to condemn the doctrine touching the deposition of Princes then I doe for the condemnation of violent attempts against their persons yet it cannot be denied both that his Maiesty might haue brought more plaine and pregnant places against the doctrine of murthering Princes if he had thought it needefull and not supposed it to be a manifest vntruth and condemned by the common coesent also of Catholikes and also that all those places which his Maiesty bringeth to proue that Subiects owe ciuill obedience to temporall Princes and against the Popes Ecclesiasticall power to depriue Princes of their temporall kingdomes doe more forcibly conclude against violent attempts against their sacred persons and against the Popes Ecclesiasticall or spirituall power to murther kill or depriue them of their liues which bloody punishments Ecclesiasticall mildnes doth so much abhorre 104 Neither doe I take the word murthered in that clause of the oath as it doth formally signifie an vnlawfull act and a mortall sinne and in that sense apply the precept Thou shalt not kill to this clause of the oath as my Aduersary would perswade the Reader but I take murthered in that clause as it doth denote materially the killing of Princes which be excommunicated or depriued by the Pope And I affirme that the killing of such Princes is directly and absolutely a mortall sinne and is that murther or killing which is forbidden by the law of God and nature reuealed to vs in the holy Scriptures and especially in those two places which the Author of the English Dialogue whose obiection against that clause of the oath I tooke vpon mee to answere did alleadge The first place 1 Reg. 26. Kill him not for who shall extend his hand against the Lords annointed and be innocent doth more particularly belong to Princes The second place Exod. 20. Thou shalt not kill is common also to priuate men and therefore much more to be ayplyed to the killing of Princes 105. Neither is it necessary as I obserued in my Appendix y part 2. sec 5. nu 4. against Suarez to make that position contained in the Oath to be hereticall and repugnant to Gods commandement that the Scripture should haue added Thou shalt not kill Princes which be excommunicated or depriued by the Pope It is sufficient that all killing both of priuate men and much more also of temporall Princes who haue in their handes the materiall sword it selfe and supreme power to kill or saue is vnlawfull and forbidden by this precept which is not warrantable either by other places of holy Scripture or declared by the Church to bee lawfull and to haue sufficient warrant Now it is manifest that neither the Church nor any one Catholike Doctour euer taught that the Popes sentence of excommunication or depriuation although wee should grant that the Pope hath power to depriue Princes by way of sentence doth giue sufficient warrant or authority to Subiects to kill their Prince for that the Popes sentence of depriuation doth at the most by the consent of all Catholicks depriue a Prince of his right to reigne but not of his corporall life or of his right to liue And thus much concerning the antecedent proposition 106 Lastly to say something also concerning the consequent although as you haue seene I do vtterly deny that to abiure this doctrine and position as hereticall That Princes which bee excommunicated or depriued by the Pope may be deposed or murthered by their Subiects or any other it is necessary by vertue of the forme of words being taken in their proper and vsuall signification and by force of the coniunction disiunctiue or that both parts of the disiunction bee abiured as hereticall neuerthelesse I doe willingly grant that by vertue of the matter both parts of that disiunctiue proposition may bee truely abiured as hereticall if wee take the word hereticall as by many learned Catholickes it is taken in a true proper and vsuall signification For the better vnderstanding whereof wee must obserue out of Alphonsus de Castro z Lib 1. aduershaereses cap 8. Didaecus Couerruuias a Lib. 4. variaâ— resolut cap. 14. and others that although the Catholike Church can determine of heresie yet an assertion is not therefore heresie because the Church hath defined it but because it is repugnant to Catholike faith or which is all one to that which is reuealed by God For the Church by her definition doth not make such a position to be heresie seeing that it would be heresie although she should not define it but the Church causeth this that by her censure she maketh knowne and manifest to vs that to bee heresie which before was not certainly knowne whether it might iustly be called heresie or no. 107. For the whole Church excluding Christ her principall head hath not power to make a new Ariicle of faith which neuerthelesse shee might doe if she could make an assertion to be hereticall But that the Church hath not power to make a new Article of faith it is conuinced by manifest reason For euery assertion is therefore called Catholike for that it is reuealed by God Seing therefore that diuine reuâ—lation doth not depend vpon the approbation or declaration of the Church the declaration of the Church doth not make that Catholike which is reuealed by God The Church therefore doth determine that this is reueaâ—ed by God but shee doth not make that which is reuealed by God to be true for if such a verity be called Catholike for that it is contained in holy Scriptures seeing that such a verity to bee contained in holy Scriptures doth not depend vpon any humane will but vpon God alone the Author of those Scriptures it is manifest by this reason that the Church can doe nothing at all that such a truth doth belong to faith For the holy Scriptures haue this of themselues that wee are bound to beleeue them in all things Wherefore the Church defining any thing to be of faith although she doth certainly define and cannot erre yet by her definition she doth not make that truth to bee Catholike faith For shee did therefore define that truth to be Catholike because that truth
innocencie by answering all his obiections and by clearing my selfe of all those imputations which hee hath falsly laid to my charge and if in defending my selfe I lay open his fraude and ignorance and returne his slanders backe vpon himselfe I ought not therefore to be taxed of calumniation seeing that to detect the slanders of the Aduersarie is not d Cap. 5. Apologiae to vse Card. Bellarmines owne words to be accounted a defaming Now to draw neere vnto the matter 4. Before my Aduersarie come to examine my Answere to his arguments he thinketh it not amisse to say somewhat concerning me the matter which I handle and the manner how I proceede therein First then touching me he affirmeth e In his Preface num 3. that whereas I call my selfe by the name of Widdrington it is well knowne to many that M. Roger Widdrington vnder whose shaddow I shroude my selfe is farre different from me in qualitie habit and profession And albeit f Num. 3. he is not ignorant what my true name and qualitie is yet he forbeareth to declare it for iust respects and will only say of me for the present that whereas our Aduersaries haue heretofore leuied and Prest many souldiers of their owne profession to maintaine their quarrells against vs they haue now in this late quarrell of the oath Prest one of ours I meane saith he this Authour who so much presumeth of his owne skill and strength that albeit the prouerbe saith Ne Hercules contra duos yet he feareth not to encounter tenne at once yea hopeth as it seemeth to wrest the club out of Hercules his hand and to beate him with his owne weapon For he taketh vpon him to ouerthrow Card. Bellarmine with his owne arguments to batter the fortresse of the Catholike Church with her owne Canons and constitutions c. 5. But first whether Roger Widdrington be the true or supposed the sole or ioint Authour of that Disputation it little auaileth to the matter which is now in controuersie and when my Aduersarie shall name more plainely that person whom he forbearing as he saith to name yet cunningly nameth I doubt not but that hee will not be afraid to answere him more fully neither will all my Aduersaries clamours and threatnings discourage him from defending the truth his Prince and Countrey for the loue wherof not for any hope of temporall lucre or preferment or for to shew his wit as my Aduersary falsly affirmeth he will not be ashamed to be Prest on to write against Mr. Fitzherbert or any other such like Authour who liuing in other Countries and out of danger to loose any thing but rather in hope to obtaine preferment by their writings would presse English Catholikes to defend with danger of loosing all they haue and of incurring his Maiesties high displeasuer that doctrine for the Popes power to depose Princes to be of faith which the State of France hath accounted scandalous seditious damnable and pernicious In the meane time let this suffice that he is a childe of the Catholike Romane Church and as good a Catholike if not better then Mr. Fitzherbert is if we will dulie consider the true nature and definition of a Catholike and that he is no true Catholike who with true Catholike and supernaturall faith beleeueth doubtfull disputable and vncertaine opinions and which consequently are subiect to errour to which true Catholike faith cannot in any wise be exposed 6. Secondly it is vntrue that I doe presume so much of my owne skill and strength that I dare aduenture to wrest out the club of Hercules his hand as my Aduersarie affirmeth or to encounter vpon equall tearmes with Card. Bellarmine or any one of those learned writers whom I named in my Disputation accounting my selfe to be farre inferior to euery one of them in skill and strength only excepting this my Aduersarie whose skill and strength I doe not greatly feare it being well knowne of what sufficiencie he is and that his skill in Philosophie or Schoole Diuinitie is not great although he hath prettie skill in making vse of other mens labours and answering in English what other men haue before replied in Latine but if Hercules will leaue his club and fight with a bulrush it is no great maistrie for a weaker man to withstand him if Card. Bellarmine insteed of the expresse words of holy Scripture and the true meaning thereof so declared to be by the ancient Fathers or the vniuersall Church or vndoubted definitions of Generall Councels or necessarie inferences deducted from them which are the only weapons wherewith Catholike doctrine can be conuinced will flie to ouer wrested similitudes false or at the most probable suppositions doubtfull and vncertaine collections to proue an infallible doctrine of the Catholike faith as he and the rest who follow him in this controuersie for the Popes power to depose Princes haue done it is an easie matter for one who hath lesse skill and strength then they haue to withstand them yea and to vanquish them and a hundred such others being so weakely armed 7. And therefore very false and friuolous is that which my Aduersarie affirmeth g Num 4. and 5. that Widdrington for so still I will call my selfe taketh vpon him to batter the fortresse of the Catholike Church with her owne Canons and constitutions and to vndermine the immoueable rocke of S. Peter with his owne instruments and all this he doth with such art and sleight that whiles he fighteth against the Church he pretendeth to be a friend and childe of the Church and albeit he impugne the Popes authority yet he dedicateth his booke to the Pope laughing vpon him whiles he woundeth him and betraying Christ with a kisse as Iudas did But how vainely he laboureth in all this he may easily see if he call to minde what he hath learned in the Catholike Chucrch to wit how inexpugnable is the rocke and seate of Peter which the proud gates of hell cannot ouercome For I doe not batter the fortresse of the Catholike Church whom I reuerence and loue as my deare mother and to whose Censure I euer haue and do also now most humbly submit my selfe and all my writings but the priuate opinions of some few Catholikes especially Iesuites who will needes enforce vpon the Christian world doubtfull disputable and vncertaine opinions for infallible grounds of supernaturall faith which onely is the fortresse of the Catholike Church Neither doe I vndermine that immoueable rocke of S. Peter whereon Christ hath built his Church but those scandalous seditious damnable and pernitious positions for so the State of France doth call them of murthering Princes and thrusting them out contrarie to the rules of law and reason of the lawfull possession of their kingdomes by an authority which is only doubfull and questionable Neither do I impugne that authoritie of the Pope which is certainely knowne to be granted him by Christ but that new doctrine of some few writers
any probabilitie in the world or to proue any thing else but his weakenesse wilfulnesse and folly in propounding and mainteining them 32. For albeit he teacheth out of Vasquez m Disput Theolog cap. 10. sec 2. num 7. vsque ad num 21. and others that of two opinions the lesse probable and lesse safe may securely be followed and that the opinion of a few yea of one approued Doctor sufficeth sometimes to make an opinion probable though many hold the contrary to that one Doctor to which purpose he filleth aboue a dozen pages of his booke with Vasquez his doctrine and text yet he is absurd in applying the same to this our case for although Vasquez doe teach n 1 a. 2 a. disp 62. cap. 1. nu 1. that a man may in doubtfull cases or questions securely follow the opinion of a few learned Doctours though the same be lesse safe and probable then the contrarie opinion held by many yet he is to be vnderstood to speake only of such disputable questions as my Aduersary Widdrington himselfe alleageth o Ibidem num 26. for example sake out of Vasquez to wit whether there are any habits infused by God alone concerning which question Vasquez saith p Vbi supra disp 79 cap. 1. disp 86. that albeit Pope Clement the fift did determine expressely in a Councell held at Vienna that there opinion who held that there are such habits is more probable then the negatiue yet it was neuer either by that decree or any other of Pope or Councell determined to be more then probable in which respect he doth not condemne the contrarie doctrine for heresie notwithstanding that he and the farre greater part of learned men do hold the other to be certainely true 33. So as Vasquez is to be vnderstood to speake of questions and opinions altogether vndecided and not of such a doctrine as ours touching the Popes power to depose Princes which as I haue said hath not onely beene taught by the learnedst men of many ages but also is grounded vpon the holy Scriptures and confirmed by the practise and decrees of diuers Popes and Councells as well Generall as Prouinciall as to omit the other mentioned in my Supplement q Cap. 2. num 76. 77. it is euident by the decree of the famous Councell of Lateran which expressely ordained the practise of it in some cases and did therefore necessarily suppose and firmely beleeue the verity of the doctrine as I will clearely prooue r Cap. 15. nu 6. 7. 8. hereafter in this Reply and withall shew the ridiculous absurditie of Widdringtons arguments and instances against the same yea and conuince him Å¿ Ibidem num 9. 11. 12. euen by his owne testimonie to be falne to vse his owne words into errour or heresie for not beleiuing this doctrine which that famous Generall Councell beleiued and ordained to be practised 34. In the meane time he is to vnderstand that whereas to shew the probabilitie of his doctrine he bringeth many Authors partly in his Theologicall Disputation and partly in his Apologie I remit him to D. Schulckenius who hath answered particularly to euery one of them and proued clearely that diuerse of them doe make flatly against him and many nothing at all for him being truely vnderstood and that some others are worthily reiected being either so absurd that they are easily confuted by the circumstances of the places alledged or else Heretikes as it appeareth by their doctrine in other things or knowne Schismatikes who liuing in the time of the Emperors or Kings that were deposed wrote partially in their fauour of which sort neuerthelesse there are very few so as of all the Authours that he hath scraped together to make some shew of probability in his doctrine he hath no one cleare and sufficient witnesse to iustifie the same 35. And therefore seeing that all his pretended probabilitie consisteth partly in the authoritie of the Authors and partly in the sufficiencie as he supposeth of his answeres to our grounds arguments and authorities which answeres I shall haue occasion to confute in this Treatise and to shew them to be so farre from probabilitie that they are wholly impertinent and sometimes ridiculous for their absurdity therefore I conclude that he cannot any way cleere or excuse himselfe from the note of great temerity and grosse errour yea flat heresie if he bee obstinate in impugning our doctrine grounded vpon such assured and solid foundations as I haue here signified and will more particularly and manifestly declare heereafter as also I will put thee in minde good Reader oftentimes by the way to note how probably or rather to say truely how absurdly he argueth and answereth to the end thou maiest the better iudge how dangerous it will be for thee to venter thy soule vpon his pretence of probability which is no other but such as any heretike may haue for his doctrine 36. For all Heretikes doe thinke themselues and their followes as good and sufficient Doctors to make an opinion probable as he either is or esteemeth his Authors to be and they neuer want Scriptures and Fathers that seeme to them to confirme their opinions and doe make as probable answers to our obiections out of Scriptures and Fathers as hee doth and many times much more probable then he yea and they may either with his arguments and instances or other as probable as they impugne the authoritie of any decree of a General Councel be it neuer so expresse against them saying that the fathers who made it followed but a probable opinion and so might erre as you shal heare t Infra chap. 13. num 1. he answereth to the decree of the Councell of Lateran 37. And so you see that if is pretended probability be admitted against the common doctrine practise and decrees of the Church any heretike will not onely easily defend but also establish his heresie and any point of Catholike faith may easily be called in question made only probable and consequently doubtfull obnoxious to error and to be reiected by any man that list to embrace the contrary which truely I leaue good Reader to thy consideration whether it bee not the right way to ouerthrow Catholike Religion and to introduce all Heresie and Atheisme 38. This is my Aduersaries fourth admonition the substance whereof although I could haue comprised in few lines yet I thought good to set it downe entirely word by word as it lieth to the end the Reader may more plainely perceiue his fraudulent vncharitable and insufficient proceeding therein And first he declareth what is requisite to a probable argument Secondly he affirmeth that Vasquez doctrine which I related in my Theologicall Disputation for following of probable opinions is to be vnderstood to speak only of questions opinions altogether vndecided not of such a doctrine as theirs is touching the Popes power to depose Princes which hath beene taught by the learnedst men
authoritie of skilfull Physitions and not of Lawiers and in a point of Catholike Religion the authoritie of learned Catholikes and who are skilfull in points of Catholike Religion which they professe and not of heretikes and who doe not professe Catholike Religion doth make the opinion or doctrine which they approue to bee probable And therefore my Aduersarie very insufficiently not to vse those fowle words absurdly ridiculously which hee so often vseth against mee argueth from the authoritie of learned Catholikes to the authoritie of heretikes whose doctrine according to the definition of probable can neuer make the opinions which they approue in points of Catholike Religion which they doe not professe to be probable Neither by this can any point of Catholike faith which is knowne to all learned Catholikes to bee a point of Catholike faith be easily called in question and made onely probable for that no learned Catholike will cal in question any doctrine which is cleerely knowne to be the Catholike faith and as for heretikes their authoritie can neuer make any doctrine belonging any way to Catholike Religion which they doe not professe to be probable 51 But if there should arise any controuersie among learned Catholikes whether this or that doctrine be of faith and in what sense the words of such a text of holy Scripture or of such a Canon or Decree of Pope or Councell are to be vnderstood there is no doubt but that the authoritie of learned Catholikes may in those cases make their opinion probable although other Catholikes would be so stiffe in their owne opinion as to condemne the contrarie part of heresie errour or temeritie A manifest example hereof we haue in the Councell of Constance wherein according to Iohn Gerson and other learned men who were present at that Councell it was expressely defined that the Pope is inferiour and subiect to a Generall Councell lawfully assembled and therefore the contrarie to be flat hereticall but since that other Catholikes especially Romane Diuines haue called that Decree in question and haue endeauoured to answer therevnto affirming that it was only meant of Popes in time of Schisme or that the aforesaid Decree was not confirmed by Pope Martin in the end of the Councell which answeres neuerthelesse doe not satisfie the Doctors of the contrarie opinion I doe not thinke but that my Aduersarie will confesse that the opinion of the Romans may bee accounted probable and that the calling of that Decree in question was not the right way to ouerthrow Catholike Religion and to introduce all heresie and Atheisme 52. But if it should perchance fall out that some Catholikes would be so selfe opinatiue as to affirme without any definition at all of the Church although vnder pretext of zeale and deuotion to the See Apostolike any doctrine to be of faith and the contrarie to be hereticall and other Catholikes although the farre fewer in number should deny the same especially in a matter which concerneth our obedience due to God and Caesar if the first part only should be permitted to write freely what they please and to taxe the other part of heresie to omit errour temeritie folly ridiculous absurditie and such like and this other part should be forbidden to defend their good names and to answere for themselues I leaue good Reader to thy consideration whether this be not the right way to ouerthrow Catholike Religion and the vndoubted grounds thereof and to introduce vncertaine opinions for an infallible doctrine of the Catholike faith which is to open a wide gap to heresie Atheisme and euident iniustice and to make among Christians a perpetuall dissention betwixt the Cleargie and Laity the temporall and spirituall power Now that this doctrine for the Popes power to depose Princes is not by any definition at all of the Church declared to bee true my Aduersary cannot denie and that it euer hath been and is impugned by learned Catholikes and the contrarie hath euer beene and is by them approued and therefore it is truly probable and not only hath a pretence of probabilitie I will shew beneath where I will both relate the Catholike Authours who deny this authoritie of the Pope to depose Princes which only is sufficient to make their doctrine probable and also I will discouer the insufficiencie of those Replies which my Aduersary hath made against my answeres And thus much concerning the third point 53. For the fourth and last point consider Catholike Countreimen whether Mr. Fizherbert intendeth to declare vnto you plainly and sincerely this present controuersie and by a cleare explayning of the question to quiet your consciences or rather by wrangling and cauilling to obscure the difficultie and blind your vnderstandings The question betwixt him and mee at this present is whether it be a probable doctrine that the Pope hath not any power by the institution of Christ to depriue Soueraigne Princes of their temporall power and Regall authoritie And there are two only grounds to perswade any man that this or that doctrine or opinion is truely probable The one are called intrinsecall groundes to wit the arguments and reasons which are drawne from holy Scriptures sacred Canons Theologicall reasons and such like to proue that doctrine or opinion and these groundes are proper only to learned men who are able to weigh and examine the arguments on both sides â—â—e other are called extrinsecall grounds which doe onely consist in the authority of those learned men who doe hold that doctrine or opinion because according to that which hath been said before that doctrine is trulie probable which is approued by wise and skilfull men in the art which they professe and by these onely grounds vnlearned men can be perswaded that any doctrine or opinion is truly probable 54. Now my Aduersarie seeing as he saith that all my pretended probabilitie consisteth partly in the authority of those Authours which I haue brought in my Theologicall Disputation and in my Apologie and partly in the sufficiencie as I suppose of my answeres to their groundes arguments and authorities yet he taketh vpon him in this Reply only to confute some of my answers to their intrinsecall grounds and for the confutation of the authorities which I bring hee remitteth his Reader to D. Schulckenius who as he saith hath answered particularly to euery one of them Seeing therefore that there is no sufficient way to satisfie the vnderstandings of vnlearned men that the doctrine which holdeth the Pope to haue no authoritie to depose Princes is not truely probable but by shewing that no learned Catholikes do approue the same for that vnlearned men are not able to examine the intrinsecall grounds of any Theologicall question but are only led by authoritie and extrinsecall grounds and if they once perceiue that learned Catholikes doe approue any doctrine they will presently also perceiue that doctrine to bee truly probable is there any likelihood that Mr. Fitzherbert intended to giue satisfaction to his vnlearned
him by violence of that howse or land before the Iudge hath decided the controuersie 78 Thirdly consider the reason why this my Aduersarie T. F. is so greatly offended that I for this present doe onely take in hand by answering probably all the arguments which are obiected on the contrarie side to shew that it is probable that the Pope hath no authoritie to depose Princes and consequently that any man may with a safe and probable conscience take the Oath for that the doctrine concerning the Popes power to depose Princes is by this my Aduersaries owne confession the maine question betwixt him me and the chiefe ground wherefore the Oath is iudged to be vnlawfull His reason therfore is for that he saw right well what great aduantage I had against him and what little aduantage hee had against me in arguing or rather answering in this manner and therefore he calleth it in heate of his zeale as you haue heard The most deuilish deuice that any man could invent And truly if I should at this first beginning haue treated of this controuersie in any other manner then by handling it probably in that sense as I haue declared I might worthily haue been taxed of great imprudencie in giuing my Aduersarie more aduantage against me then was needfull For this is the state of the question whether it can bee clearely convinced by the authoritie of holy Scriptures ancient Fathers Generall Councells or by necessarie inferences from any of them as my Aduersaries pretend to convince that it is an vndoubted doctrine of faith and the contrarie not to be maintained by any Catholike that the Pope hath power to depose Princes and consequently that the Oath can not lawfully be taken This is the question 79 Marke now the aduantage I haue For first I am not to proue but only to answer to defend not to oppose Secondly it is sufficient for me that my Answers be onely probable but their Replyes must not be onely probable but also convincing and which can not with any probabilitie be answered So that if I should goe about at the first to proue my opinion to be most true which my Aduersaries contend not to be questionable I should as it is euident greatly disaduantage my selfe For in such controuersies as are so violently maintained by the Aduersarie that hee will not grant the contrarie part to be questionable it is necessarie to proceed by degrees first to make the thing questionable and disputable which the aduerse part will not haue to be called in question and after this is once agreed vpon then to examine whether opinion be the truest For perchance it may fall out that as the opinion for the immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin before Scotus did oppose himselfe herein against S. Thomas and his followers was scarse accounted probable yet afterwards it was daily more and more embraced so that it is now esteemed to be by farre the more true opinion and as Alphonsus Salmeron b in Rom 5. Disp 51. § deinde and Franciscus c Tom. 2. Disp 3. sec 5. Suarez doe affirme agreed vpon by the consent almost of the vninuersall Church and of all Ecclesiasticall writers Bishops Religious Orders and Vniuersities And as that opinion which holdeth that the Pope can not dispence in the solemne vow of Religious chastitie neither in any lawfull marriage before it bee consummate is accounted by very many learned men to be the truer opinion notwithstanding the practise of many Popes to the contrarie So it may fall out that in processe of time this opinion which denyeth the Popes power to depose Princes may be accounted by the greatest number of learned men to be by farre the more true opinion and may be agreed vpon by the consent almost of the Vniuersall Church and of all Ecclesiasticall writers Bishops Religious Orders and Vniuersities notwithstanding the practise of many Popes and the vehement opposition of the Iesuits at this present time to the contrarie 80 Fourthly consider how little beholding are English Catholikes to this my Aduersarie T. F. who will needs inforce them euen with the temporall ouerthrow of themselues and of their whole posteritie to defend that doctrine to be of faith which the State of France accounteth scandalous seditious damnable and pernicious and also endeauoureth to perswade his Maiestie that no Catholike can according to the grounds of Catholike Religion be a true and loyall Subiect to his Maiestie but at the Popes pleasure or which is all one so long onely as the Pope shall not depose him which he may doe at his pleasure But we haue great affiance in his Maiesties singular wisdome and element disposition whereof we haue had both by his Maiesties gracious Proclamation publike bookes and effectuall deeds sufficient tryall that he will not be drawne by the false suggestion of this my Aduersarie who would haue all his Catholike Subiects to be of the same violent spirit as he is to haue all his Catholike Subiects in the same degree of iealousie but that he will euer make a distinction betwixt them who are his true hearted Subiects and most loyall in all temporall affaires and will aduenture all that they haue and are in defence of his Maiesties Royall Person and dignitie against any sentence of depriuation whatsoeuer which shall be denounced against him by the Pope assuring themselues that it is conformable to the grounds of Catholike Religion which they professe and not repugnant to that spirituall obedience wherein they stand bound to the supreme Pastour of the Catholike Church and those other Catholikes who thinking it to be a point of faith that the Pope hath authoritie to dethrone Soueraigne Princes and to make temporall Kings priuate men will only defend his Maiestie and yeeld him temporall obedience vntill the Pope after his sentence of depriuation shall command them the contrarie 81 But what small reliefe are English Catholikes to expect from Mr. Fitzherberts hands if it were in his power to relieue them you may Catholike Countrymen coniecture by this that towards the end of Queene Elizabeth hir raigne when those foure Reuerend Priests were at Rome to seeke redresse of Pope Clement the eight to whom they and other of their brethren had appealed for the manifold wrongs and slaunders wherewith they were charged both at home and abroad at which time this my Aduersarie running from Cardinall to Cardinall to informe against them made no scruple of conscience to disgrace and slaunder them as Schismatikes Spies Rebells and disobedient persons to the See Apostolike c. as now in his publike writings he handleth me hee and some others vpon whom he depended fearing lest that hir Maiestie should shew some fauour and giue some sort of toleration to such hir Catholike Subiects whom for their constant loyaltie she might securely trust for out of hir Princely and mercifull disposition Shee had already shewed ouer great fauour to those oppressed Priests considering the present lawes
of the fragment of the historie of France published by Petrus Pithaeus with Glaber Genebrard and Vignerius doe relate that Philip was excommunicated by Vrbanus and as some of them say in the Councell of Claramont but none of them make mention that hee was deposed or depriued of his Royall honour and Crowne 8. Neither can it any way be prooued out of Iuo that Philip was depriued by Pope Vrbanus of his Royall Honour and Crowne for that Iuo at that very time when Philip was excommunicated did in expresse words account him his Lord and King and offered him his faithfull seruice as to his Lord and King This onely can be gathered out of Iuo that King Philip was desirous to honour his new Queene or rather Concubine Bertrada by putting the Royall Crowne or Diademe on both their heads in a publike solemnity which for that it was a religious ceremony and vsually done in the Church at the time of Masse by the Primate of the Land and Philip was at that time excommunicated and depriued of all holy rites and ceremonies of the Church Pope Vrbanus fo◠bad all the Bishops of France to crowne in that sort the King and his new supposed Queene for Philip himselfe was long before crowned King of France and this solemnitie which Pope Vrbanus forbade or the want thereof did not giue or take away from King Philip any iot of his Royall power and authoritie 9. Secondly it is repugnant saith D. Schulckenius to the examples of Gregorie the great of Zachary and of other Popes But to those examples both I haue answered at large in my Apology h Num. 382. seq num 404. seq and also since that Mr. Iohn Barclay i Ca. 40. 42. to whom as yet no Reply hath beene made and first that those words of S. Gregorie k Lib. 2. epist post epist 38. honore suo priuetur let him be depriued or I would to God he may be depriued of his honour for both wayes it may be Englished as that the verbe priuetur may be of the Imperatiue or of the Optatiue moode doe not contain a iuridicall sentence command or decree as likewise neither those words which are spoken in the like manner by S. Gregory cum Iuda traditore in inferno damnetur and let him be damned in hell or I wish he may be damned in hell with Iudas the traitour but onely either a zealous imprecation l See Baronius ad annum 1097. num 51. against them who should infringe his priuiledge if they did not repent or else a declaration that they were worthie for their contempt to bee depriued of their honour and to bee condemned to hell fire with Iudas the traitour from whence it cannot be inferred that the Pope hath authoritie to depriue by a iuridical sentence those Kings who infringe his priuiledge of their Regall Honour or to condemne them by a iuridicall sentence to hell fire 10. So likewise to that example of Pope Zacharie I answered m Num. 404. seq that he did not by any iuridicall sentence of depriuation depriue Childerike of his Kingdome and create Pipin King but onely gaue his aduise counsell and consent or at the most command to the Peeres of France that they ought or might lawfully the circumstances which they propounded to Zacharie being considered depriue Childerike of his kingdome and create Pipin king but this argueth no authoritie in the Pope to depose Princes by any iuridicall sentence of depriuation but at the most an authority in the common wealth to depose their King in some cases of great moment which is not the question which we haue now in hand And therefore the Glosse n In cap. Alius 15. q. 6. with other graue and learned Authours cited by me in my Apologie o Num. 404. seq doe expound those wordes of Pope Gregorie the seueth Zacharie deposed Childerike thus Zacharie gaue his aduise and consent to those who deposed him and those words which some Chronicles haue Childerike was deposed by the authoritie of Pope Zacharie Lupolbus Bambergensis Ioannes Parisiensis and Michael Coccineus doe expound in the like maner that Childerike was deposed by the authoritie of Pope Zacharie not deposing Childerike and creating Pipin King but only declaring that he might be lawfully deposed by the Peeres of France whereof they were in some doubt for that they had sworne to him allegiance and therefore they craued the opinion and aduise of Pope Zacharie to be resolued by him of that doubt for that the Vniuersitie of Paris did not flourish at that time saith Ioannes Maior p Jn 4. dist 24. q. 3. circa sinē de potest Regia Papal c. 15. and so Pipin was annointed King by the election of the Barons saith Ioannes Parisiensis and by the authoritie of the Pope declaring the doubt of the Barons which also they might haue done without the Popes consent vpon a reasonable cause 11. But because Card. Bellarmine will neuer cease to inculcate still the same authorities which by mee and others haue beene so often answered I thinke it not amisse to add something here concerning that which I did in generall words insinuate in my Apologie q Num. 382. and is more expresly touched by Nicholas Vingerius in his Historie of the Church of France and more particularly vrged by the Bishop of Rochester in his answere to Card. Bellarmines Treatise against Barclay to wit that the priueledge which is said to be granted by S. Gregorie to the Monasterie of S. Medard and which is so greatly vrged by Card. Bellarmine and others is not so authenticall as Card. Bellarmine and others suppose it to be which may be proued by many probable coniectures as by the stile and phrase which is not agreeable to S. Gregories and also by the date of the yeare of our Lord which is not agreeable to the manner of dating of those daies but principally by the persons who are subscribed for witnesses to that priueledge For S. Austin Bishop of Canterbury and Mellitus Bishop of London and Theodorike King of France are subscribed for witnesses to that priueledge and yet neither S. Austin nor Mellitus were Bishops nor Theodorike King at that time which Card. Baronius also doth in expresse words affirme r Ad annum 893. num 85. But I confesse saith he that the subscriptions of the Bishops and of Theodorike King of France do not agree to these times for many Bishops who are found subscribed are knowne to be created some certaine yeares after as to speake nothing of the rest Augustin Bishop of Canterbury and Mellitus of London who as it is manifest were neither at this time Bishops nor gone for England neither at this time did Theodorike reigne in France but Childebert and Gunthramn Wherefore my opinion is that the subscription was afterwards adioyned Thus Baronius But considering that Theodorike not only in the subscription but also in
the priueledge it selfe is named King at whose instance S. Gregorie saith he granted that priueledge Baronius might with the same reason haue affirmed that not only the subscription but also the priueledge it selfe was afterwards made and adioyned to S. Gregories Epistles which without doubt Baronius would quickly haue acknowledged if it had not beene for those words honore suo priuetur which hee thought made greatly for the Popes power to depose Princes seeing that vpon far weaker grounds hee sticketh not to deny oftentimes priueledges and antiquities which neuer before were called in question 12. And although Pope Gregorie the seuenth in his Epistle to the Bishop of Metz doth not cite this priueledge of S. Gregorie granted to the Monasterie of S. Meâ—ard which is no small coniecture that this priueledge was not extant in those daies among the Epistles of S. Gregorie for otherwise it bearing so great a shew of being authenticall by the subscription of 30 Bishops and the King and Queene of France who were witnesses thereunto it would by all likelihood haue beene cited by Pope Gregorie the seuenth but an other priueledge granted to an other Monasterie by S Gregorie in his Epistle to one Senator Abbot Å¿ Lib. 11. epist epist 10. wherin S. Gregorie did not say honore suo priuetur let him be depriued of his honour but potestatis honorisque sui dignitate careat let him want or I desire he may want not his honour but the worthinesse of his power and honour which words are not so forcible to prooue the Popes authoritie to depriue Kings of their princely honour and power but at the most to declare them to bee vnworthy of it for some crime committed by them and to be worthy also to be damned in hell with Iudas the Traitor for that many a one may be a true King and haue princely power and honour who is vnworthy thereof Neuerthelesse besides that the aforesaid words do containe no sentence of depriuation but onely a curse or imprecation which kinde of imprecations euen containing anathema was frequent in the priueledges granted by Lay-men yea and vpon sepulchres that men should be fearefull to violate them as Baronius t Ad an 1097. Num. 51. relateth also this priueledge mentioned in S. Gregories epistle to Senator is not so authenticall both for that it hath neither date of any yeare or day when it was written nor subscription of any witnesse which by likelihood it would haue had if there had beene any authenticall copie thereof and also for that the Authour of the booke intituled de vnitate Ecclesiae who is thought to be Venericus Bishop of Vercellis and liued in Pope Gregorie the seuenth his time answering that epistle of Pope Gregorie the seuenth to the Bishop of Metz doth bouldly affirme that those words potestatis honorisque sui dignitate careat let him want the worthinesse of his power and honour were not in those daies extant among the workes of S. Gregorie Whereby the Reader may easily perceiue what weake demonstrations and authorities Card. Bellarmine doth so often inculcate to conuince this doctrine for the Popes power to depose Painces to be a point of faith 13 Thirdly it is also repugnant saith D. Schulckenius to those most famous French writers whom I related before But although it be true that the most part of those seuenteene French writers related by Card Bellarmine in his booke against Barclay and now in his Schulckenius against me are of opinion that the Pope hath power to depose Princes this neuerthelesse may also be true which Petrus Pithaeus affirmeth to wit that France vnderstanding thereby the State of France hath euer held the the Pope hath no authoritie to depriue the King of France of his Kingdom May it not truly be said that the Kingdome and State of England hath from the first yeere of Queene Elizabeths reigne euen to this present time held that the Catholike Romane Religion is not the true Religion notwithstanding that not onely seuenteene but seuenteene thousands there haue been of English Catholikes since the first beginning of hir reigne till now who haue held the contrarie wherefore when Petrus Pithaeus affirmed that France hath euer held that the Pope hath no authoritie to depose their King by France hee did not vnderstand euery particular French-man but the State and temporall Gouernours of the Kingdome of France which his assertion is also confirmed by the State and Parliament of Paris first in the censuring of Card Bellarmines booke against D. Barclay then in burning his Schulckenius written against me afterwards in condemning Suarez booke against his Maiesties Apologie for maintayning so stifly this doctrine for the Popes power to depose Princes and to dispose of all their temporalls which they call a scandalous and seditious a damnable and pernicious doctrine and now lastly by the decree of the Parliament of Paris the second of Ianuarie of this present yeere 1615 wherein it is ordained that it shall not bee held for problematique and also by the new oath of allegiance like vnto that of ours but that ours is more sweete and more modest as the Cardinall du Peron u Pag. 100. affirmeth which those of the lower house of the generall assembly of all the States of France whom the same Cardinall du Peron in his speech to them confesseth to be Catholikes x Pag. 96. endeauoured to haue made for a fundamentall Law 14 Lastly it is also repugnant saith D. Schulckenius to reason it is repugnant to the principles of the Catholike faith For if the Subiects of the King of France be bound to obey their King being excommunicated and that they can not be absolued from this obedience by the Pope it followeth that either the King of France can not be bound by Christ his Vicar with the bond of ExcoÌ„munication or that his Subiects can not be loosed from the bond of their allegiance and obedience Both are repugnant to the words of Christ who said to his Vicar whatsoeuer thou shalt binde vpon earth shall be bound also in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose vpon earth shall be loosed also in heauen Neither did Christ except the King of France or his Subiects and who hath excepted them I can not tell This I know that no man could by right except them and whosoeuer will not be subiect to the keyes of the Church I know and with a cleare voice I doe pronounce that hee will neither bee a Christian nor can â—â—e appertaine to the kingdome of Christ 15 Great words to small purpose For although it be true that Card Bellarmine Suarez and some few others are or seeme to be of opinion that it is against reason and against the principles of the Catholike faith to hold that the Pope hath no authoritie to depose Princes yet it is also true that other learned Catholikes are of opinion that it is neither against reason nor against the principles of the Catholike faith to hold
that the Pope hath no such authoritie Must the opinion of Card Bellarmine or of Suarez or of any other learned Catholike be a rule of reason to all other learned Catholikes or to bee accounted by all Catholikes the principles of the Catholike faith All Catholikes doe confesse that the Pope hath authoritie to excommunicate a Christian King and that Subiects are not bound to obey an excommunicated King in those things which the Censure of Excommunication of it owne nature and by the institution of Christ doth forbid but to absolue Subiects from their temporall allegiance either by vertue of Excommunication which being a spirituall Censure hath neither of it owne nature nor by the institution of Christ such a temporall effect or by the sentence of depriuation this many learned Catholikes with the State of France doe affirme not to belong to the Popes spirituall authoritie to binde or loose 16 True also it is that all Christians are subiect to the keyes of the Church but these keyes are spirituall not temporall of the kingdome of heauen and not of earthly kingdomes neither is any Christian excepted from that authoritie which Christ gaue to S. Peter by those words whatsoeuer thou shalt loose c. But those words are not to be vnderstood of temporall but onely of spirituall bindings and loosings as I haue often shewed neither did any of the ancient Fathers euer extend the keyes of the Church to the absoluing of Subiects from their temporall allegiance or to the depriuing of Kings and Princes of their temporall liues libertie kingdomes or goods as by some Catholikes of these latter ages contrarie to the true meaning and institution of Christ and to the vnderstanding and practise of the primitiue Church they haue been violently wrested To that whatsoeuer thou shalt loose c. I answer saith Ioannes Parisiensis according to S. Chrysostome Rabanus that by this is not vnderstood any power to be giuen but spirituall to wit to absolue from the bond of sinnes For it were foolish to vnderstand that by this is giuen a power to absolue from the bond of debts and much lesse from that great and high debt of temporall allegiance 16. These be all the exceptions which D. Schulckenius taketh against those authorities which I broght in my Theologicall Disputation Now let any indifferent Reader iudge whether he hath sufficiently answered those authorities or rather by cauilling and shuffling laboured cunningly to shift them off and whether Mr. Fitzherbert might not blush to affirme so boldly that D. Schulckenius to whom he cunningly also as you haue seene remitteth his English Reader for his answer to those authorities hath answered particularly to euerie one of them and prooued cleerely that diuerse of them make flat against Widdrington and many nothing at all for him being truely vnderstood and that some others are worthily reiected being either so absurd that they are easily confuted by the circumstances of the places alledged or else heretikes as appeareth by their doctrine in other things or knowen Schismatikes who liuing in the times of the Emperours or Kings that were deposed wrote partially in their fauours of which sort neuerthelesse there are very few so that of all the Authours that Widdrington hath scraped together to make some shew of probabilitie in his doctrine hee hath no one cleere and sufficient witnesse to iustifie the same which how true it is or rather most cleerely false I remit to the consideration of the indifferent and iudicious Reader 17. For the testimony of Iohn Trithemius a learned and vertuous Catholike who expressely affirmeth that it is a controuersie among Schoolmen as yet not decided by the Iudge whether the Pope hath power to depose the Emperour or no partly hee reiecteth partly that word Schoolemen hee ridiculously expoundeth to be Historiographers Grammarians Poets as Sigebert Valla Dante 's who neuerthelesse are by Trithemius himselfe related to be also excellent Diuines and partly to repell his testimonie he falsely grossely and vnaduisedly taxeth him with errours committed in his historie and for proofe thereof he remitteth his Reader to Posseuine who as you haue seene both in that and also other points of historie hath shamefully erred himselfe and neuerthelesse that which Trithemius affirmeth Iacobus Almaine a famous Schoole-Diuine and classicall Doctour of Paris who liued also in those daies confirmeth to be true whose words D. Schulckenius doth cunningly passe ouer without any answer at all Albericus a Classicall Doctour of the canon and ciuill Law for that hee deliuereth his opinion with submission is ready to recal it if it should prooue erroneous as euery good Catholike ought to doe he will haue to speake wauering and altogether doubtfull Ioannes Parisiensis a most learned Schoole-Diuine partly he will haue to make nothing for my opinion and yet he confesseth that Parisiensis is of opinion that the Pope hath no authoritie to depriue a Prince of his Kingdome by a iuridicall sentence of depriuation which neuerthelesse is the maine and sole point which I contend to prooue and partly to cleane ouerthrow his testimony he taxeth him without sufficient ground of many errours which errours neuerthelesse although he should haue maintained doe cleerely confirme this doctrine against the Popes power to depose Princes The testimony of Mr. D. Barclay a famous learned and vertuous Catholike he no more regardeth then of an heretike To M. Blackwell and those other English Priests he answereth nothing The Records of the generall assembly of the States of France related by Bochellus with such particular circumstances that no man can misdoubt of them for a friuolous reason hee accounteth incredible The testimonie of Petrus Pithaeus a very learned Catholike and a diligent searcher of antiquity by Posseuines confession affirming that France hath euer held for certaine that the Pope hath no authoritie to depose their King also for friuolous reasons hee vtterly reieiecteth which neuerthelesse the late proceeding of the Court of Parliament against his and such like bookes hath sufficiently confirmed And if this manner of answering authorities is to bee admitted who may not easily shift off any authorities whatsoeuer especially when they shall haue their trumpetters to extoll all their writings and answers to the skie and to depresse their aduersaries and who shall seeme to make against them whether they be liuing or dead euen to the pit of hell appeaching them of heresie errour schisme and such like hainous crimes 18. Many other authorities I brought in my Apologie which doe cleerely contradict Card. Bellarmines doctrine which onely I tooke vpon mee to confute whereof some of them doe expressely affirme that the Church of Christ hath onely a spirituall and not a temporall sword Others that temporall Princes are in temporall affaires next vnder God and to bee punished with temporall punishments by God alone and that the temporall power is independant of the spirituall Others that neither Childerike was deposed nor the Romane Empire translated from the Graecians
to the Germans or French by the Popes sole authoritie but by the consent suffrages and authoritie also of the people which neuerthelesse are principall authorities which by Card. Bellarmine and others are brought to prooue the Popes power to depose Princes Finally others although they be of opinion that the Pope hath authoritie to depose Princes for heresie or which is a farre different question to declare them to be deposed for so writeth Antonius de Rosellis yet they deny that for other temporall crimes or for insufficiency in gouernment a Christian Prince can be deposed by the Pope whereas Card. Bellarmine doth not limit his authoritie to any crime or cause but doth absolutely in ordine ad bonum spirituale in order to spirituall good extend this pretended authoritie 19. Neither is it true that I brought the authority of anie heretike for proofe of my opinion as M. Fitzherbert without anie shame or cōscience vntruly affirmeth I omitted of set purpose to name Marsilius of Padua for that not onely his booke but also himselfe is placed among heretikes in the Catalogue of forbidden bookes And although I had vrged his authority in that sort as I did vrge it in my Appendix against Fa. Suarez yet it had beene in my iudgement a forcible proofe not for that I thinke the authority of an heretike barely considered by it selfe to be of anie force to prooue affirmatiuely any doctrine to belong to faith but for that Marsilius writing a booke of purpose to defend the right and Soueraigntie of Emperours and Kings against the Popes power to depose them wherin here and there he scattereth many heresies he should by Catholike Authours who write of heresies as Castro Prateolus D. Sanders and others bee particularly taxed of those heresies and yet his doctrine against the Popes power to depose Princes which was the principall subiect of his booke should not bee censured by them as hereticall or erroneous for this is a forcible argument that those Catholike writers did not account his doctrine in that point to be hereticall or erroneus although they thought it perchance to be the lesse probable doctrine 20. True also it is that in my Apologie I alledged Sigebert for my opinion for that hee vehemently impugned this pretended doctrine for the Popes power to depose Princes both against Pope Gregorie the seuenth and also Paschalis the second calling it a noueltie not to say an heresie and answering as he saith with strong arguments of the Fathers the Epistle which the said Gregorie wrote to Hermannus Bishop of Metz in reproach of Kingly power But Sigebert saith D. Schulckenius was a Schismatike and his bookes against Gregorie the seuenth and Paschalis the second are condemned by the Catholike Romane Church But truly it is strange and greatly to be lamented to see some Catholikes now adaies especially who professe sanctitie of life and pretend to haue a tender and timorous conscience so easily to defame and slander other Catholikes who dislike their opinions or proceedings with such enormious crimes as are Schisme heresie and Apostacie What reason had Card. Baronius of whom D. Schulckenius hath taken the same to call Sigebert a Schismatike he being by no other Authour that I haue read before Baronius charged with that heinous crime but was euer reputed a learned vertuous and religious Catholike truely I cannot in any wise perceiue Schisme is a rebellious seperation from the vnitie of the Church or a refusing to obey the Pope as he is the visible head of the Church and Christ his Vicegerent on earth 21 For obserue diligently saith Card. Caietane y 2a 2a q. 39. ar 2. in resp ad 2m that to refuse to obey the Popes commaund may happen three manner of waies First in regard of the thing commanded Secondly in regard of the person commanding and thirdly in regard of the office of the Iudge or commander For if one doth euen with obstinacie contemne the Popes sentence to wit for that he will not fulfill that which the Pope hath commanded as to abstaine from such a warre to restore such a State c. although hee should most greiuously sinne yet he is not for this a Schismatike For it falleth out and that often that one will not fulfill the command of his Superiour acknowledging him neuerthelesse to be his Superior For if one vpon a reasonable cause hath the Pope for a person suspected and therefore doth not only refuse the Popes presence but also his immediate iudgement or sentence being readie to receiue from him not suspected Iudges hee neither incurreth the crime of Schisme nor any other crime For it is naturall to shunne hurtfull things and to be warie of dangers And the Popes person may gouern tyrānically so much the easier by how much he is more potent and feareth no reuenger on earth But when one refuseth to obey the Popes command or sentence in regard of his office not acknowledging him to be his Superiour although he do beleiue he is then properly he is a Schismatike And according to this sense are to be vnderstood the words of S. Thomas and such like for euen obstinate disobedience doth not make Schisme vnlesse it be a rebellion to the office of the Pope or of the Church so that he refuse to subiect himselfe vnto him to acknowledge him for Superiour c. Thus Card. Caietane 22. Now what Authour euer said that Sigebert refused to obey in this sort Pope Gregories command or that he acknowledged Guibert the Antipape and not Gregorie to be the true and lawful Pope True it is that Sigebert was blamed by some as Trithemius z In verbo Sigebertus relateth for that he adhering to the Emperour Henry being a persecutour and rebell to the Romane Church wrote letters and treatises against Pope Gregorie the seuenth whih did not become his profession but that Sigebert did depart from the vnitie of the Church or that he refused to obey and subiect himselfe to Pope Gregorie as not acknowledging him to be his Superiour which is necessarily required to make one a Schismatike or that he adhered to the Emperour Henry in his rebellion to the Romane Church and in deposing Gregorie and creating Guibert Pope neither D. Schulckenius nor any other is able to prooue out of any ancient or moderne writer 23. True also it is that Sigebert was of this opinion that the Pope had no authoritie to depose the Emperour and therein he opposed himselfe to Pope Gregorie and answered as hee saith all his arguments with strong testimonies of the Fathers and vpon this ground he adhered to the Emperour acknowledging him to still remaine the true and lawfull Emperour and refused to obey Pope Gregories command wherein hee strictly ordained that no man should account Henry the fourth to be true and lawfull Emperour But considering that the doctrine for the Popes power to dethrone temporall Princes and the practise thereof was then new in the Church of God and neuer
5. p. 203. That which my Aduersarie Widdrington saith that the mysticall bodie Church or Christian common-wealth is compounded of spirituall authority alone is true in this sense that to compound the Christian common-wealth there is not necessary a power which is formally ciuill but yet there is necessarie a power which is so formally spirituall that it is also vertually ciuill c. For how can the Church of Christ be compounded of ciuill and spirituall power which are formally two distinct powers and yet the Church not haue power which is formally ciuill but onely spirituall Neuerthelesse I doe not intend to denie that the spirituall or Ecclesiasticall power among Christians may in this sense be called vertually ciuill or temporall because it may for the spirituall good command and compell spiritually temporall Princes to vse their temporall power for this were onely to contend about words but that the Church of Christ whereof the Pope is head is truely properly and formally compounded of ciuil and spiritualll power this I say is both vntrue and also flat contrarie to Card. Bellarmines own grounds but whether the spiritual power of the church may be called vertually ciuill or temporal for that it may also constraine and punish temporall Princes temporally or vse temporall and ciuill authoritie in case the temporall Prince for the spirituall good will not vse it this is the maine question betwixt mee and Card. Bellarmine 7. To conclude therefore this answere I doe freely grant that Kings and Bishops Clearks and Laicks as by baptisme they are regenerate in Christ doe truely properly and formally make one entire and totall body which is the spirituall kingdome and Church of Christ whereof the Pope is the supreme visible head but I vtterly deny that this spirituall kingdome or Church of Christ is compounded of spirituall and temporall but onely of spirituall or Ecclesiasticall power or that Clearks and Laicks as they are citizens or by their naturall birth are subiect in temporall affaires to temporall Princes doe compound this Church of Christ but onely the earthly kingdomes of the Christian world which are onely compounded of ciuill and temporall authority In which Christian world or Christian common-wealth taking them for an aggregatum per accidens including both the spirituall kingdome of Christ whereof the Pope is head and also earthly kingdomes whereof Christian Princes are the onely visible heads for the Church of Christ is seldome times taken in this sense there is but one totall or intire Catholike Church yet there be many intire temporall kingdomes or common-wealths as of English French Spanish which haue their seuerall Princes Lawes and gouernments and haue no other communion then in friendship and amitie Yea the Catholike Church is one totall body or common-wealth in Christian and Infidell kingdomes And also in one particular Christian kingdome there be two distinct totall bodies or common-wealths to wit the temporall consisting of ciuill power and the Ecclesiasticall consisting of spirituall wherein as there bee two distinct communions the one spirituall in things belonging to grace and the other temporall in things belonging to nature So also their be two excommunications the one in spirituals wherein those that be excommunicated by the Church doe not participate and the other in temporalls whereof those who be excommunicated or made out-lawes by temporall Princes are not partakers in so much that they who are depriued of one of these communions are not thereby depriued of the other for an out-law may be a member of the Church and be partaker of spirituall communion and he who by Excommunication is depriued of Ecclesiasticall communion may bee a member of the ciuill common-wealth as Heathens and Publicans were and not therefore to be excluded from ciuill societie and conuersation 8. Wherefore although the temporall and spirituall power among Christians as they are referred to the visible heads thereof doe truely properly and formally make diuerse totall bodies or common-wealths which neuerthelesse ought both to conspire in league friendship to bring both Princes and subiects to life euerlasting yet they are not like to two confederate Cities or Kingdomes which are onely vnited in league and amity and haue no ciuill communion one with the other neither is the same man a citizen of both Cities or a subiect of both Kingdomes but the temporall and spirituall power are so vnited among Christians that the same man who by ciuill conuersation or naturall birth is a citizen part and member of the temporall City Kingdome or Common-wealth and consequently subiect to her Lawes is also by baptisme or spirituall regeneration made a citizen part or member of the spirituall Citie Kingdome or Cōmon-wealth which is the Church of Christ and consequently is also subiect to her Lawes So that although the vnion and communion of earthly Kingdomes and the spirituall kingdome of Christ bee greater among Christians then of two confederate Cities or temporall kingdomes yet this vnion and communion being onely material accidentall and in subiect as Musicke and Physicke are vnited in one man by reason whereof the same man is both a Musician and a Physician and consequently subiect to the precepts and directions of either art is not sufficient to cause them to make truely properly and formally one totall body kingdome or common-wealth whereof the Pope is head as neither the vnion of two accidents in one subiect is sufficient to cause them to make truely properly and formally one entire totall accidentall cōpound Neuerthelesse I do not deny as I obserued before but that the temporal spiritual power earthly kingdomes and the spiritual kingdome of Christ as they are referred to Christ who at leastwise as God is the head of them both doe make one totall body whereof Christ onely is the head which may be called the Christian world consisting of ciuill and spirituall power but in this manner neither the Pope nor temporall Princes are the head but onely parts and members of this totall body as beneath l Cap. 1. nu 4. I will declare more at large Chap. 3. Wherein the authoritie of S. Gregorie Nazianzen comparing the temporall and spirituall power to the body and soule in man is declared 1. THe second argument which Card. Bellarmine bringeth to proue that the ciuill and spirituall power among Christians doe make one totall body or common-wealth is taken from the authority of S. Gregory Nazianzene who compareth the spirituall and temporall power among Christians to the soule and body of man From which similitude Card. Bellarmine argueth in this manner a Lib. 5. de Rom. Pont. c. 6. These two powers in the Church saith hee are like to the spirit and body in a man For the body the spirit are as it were two common-wealths which may be found diuided and vnited The body is found without the spirit in beasts the spirit is found without the body in Angels the body and spirit are both vnited in man and doe make
among Christians is not per se and of it owne nature subiect to the spirituall power is for that in his Schulckenius he affirmeth h Pag. 276. ad nu 140. That among the Heathen Romanes the ciuill power was subiect to the spiritual power of a false religion and a little beneath if the ciuill power saith he be ioyned with a false Ecclesiasticall power that is of a false Religion as it was in the Heathen Romane Common-wealth then it is actually subordained to a false Ecclesiasticall power and if it bee ioyned with a true Ecclesiasticall power as in the Christian and Catholike Church then it is actually subordained to a true Ecclesiasticall power Now what Philosopher or Diuine will affirme that a true ciuill power is per se and of it owne nature actually ordained subordained or referred to a false Ecclesiasticall power that is of a false Religion or to the worshipping of false Gods Therfore this subiection subordination or relation of true ciuill power to the spirituall proceedeth from the intention of him in whom the ciuill power doth reside who according to his faith and religion bee it true or false referreth his true ciuill power to a true or false Religion to a true or false worshipping of God and not from the nature or any intrinsecal propertie of the true ciuill power it selfe which as it is the same in Infidels and Christians or in whatsoeuer subiect it be so also of it own nature hath the same end as well in Infidels as in Christians to wit temporall peace to which of it owne nature it is alwaies referred And therefore I doe not onely say but also I doe cleerely prooue and that out of Card. Bellarmines owne grounds to which neuerthelesse I being only an answerer and not an opponent was not tied that neither the ciuil power being only a naturall power nor the end of ciuill power which is temporal peace being onely a naturall end is per se and of it owne nature subiect or subordained to a true supernaturall power or end but onely by the intension of him in whom the ciuill power doth reside 9. Now you shal see how wel D. Schulckenius proueth the contrarie But wee prooue the contrary saith he i Pag. 329. ad nu 162. because the end of the spirituall common-wealth is euerlasting saluation which is the last end the end of the temporall common-wealth is the peace of the Citie or Kingdome which is not the last end but a mediate end But all ends are subordained per se and of their owne nature to the last end and in vertue of it they doe mooue as all efficient causes are subordained per se and of their owne nature to the first efficient cause and in vertue of it they worke whatsoeuer they doe worke See S. Thomas 1â— 2â— q. 1. ar 6. 10. But to this argument I answered before that the last create end of the spirituall common-wealth which is a companie of men vnited by Baptisme in that manner as I declared before is eternal saluation to which they ought to referre all their powers both temporall and spirituall and all their actions both in generall and particular but I denied that the last end of the temporall power it selfe although it bee conioyned in one the selfe same subiect with true spirituall power is eternall saluation but onely temporall peace in the common-wealth to which of it owne nature it is onely referred as to her last end although by the intention of him in whom true ciuill and spirituall power doth reside it ought to bee referred to eternall saluation as to the last end of a Christian man but not as to the last end which the temporall power it selfe hath per se and of it owne nature Neither hath D. Schulckenius proued the contrary but rather in his Reply to my answere hee in expresse words confirmeth what I haue said For in his answere to the authority which I brought out of S. Augustine hee affirmeth That the last end of one particular will power or science is their act or operation and therefore it cannot of it owne nature be referred to eternall saluation as to the last end vnlesse D. Schulckenius will admit that the same particular power hath of it owne nature two last ends or a later end then the last which implieth a manifest contradiction but it must onely be referred extrinsecally to eternall saluation by the intention of him in whom the particular power doth reside 11 True it is That all create ends are subordained per se and of their nature to that end which is simply and absolutely the last end and doe moue in vertue thereof as all efficient causes are subordained per se and of their owne nature to that which is simply and absolutely the first efficient cause and in vertue thereof they doe worke whatsoeuer they do worke But this efficient and finall cause of all created things is not the eternall saluation of men but God a mighty who is Alpha Omega principium finis the beginning and end of all created things both naturall and supernaturall both vnreasonable and reasonable of accidents and substances of all powers and of all things wherein powers doe reside and who is glorified not onely by the eternall saluation but also by the eternall damnation of men God alone is simply and absolutely the last end of all created things to whome all naturall things are of their owne nature lastly referred as to the first Authour and last end of nature and supernaturall things as to the first Authour and last end of grace and glory Neither can naturall things of their owne nature be referred to any supernaturall create end as is eternall saluation but onely by the will and intention of him who by the helpe of supernatural grace shall referre and eleuate them aboue their nature to a supernaturall end Neither doth S. Thomas in that place affirme the contrary but rather most cleerely confirmeth what I haue said for there he only disputeth how euery man by his wil intention and desire referreth all good things which hee desireth to the last end 12. Marke now I beseech you D. Schulckenius his second proofe which is no whit better then the former Moreouer is not the body saith he k Pag. 330. per se or of it owne nature for the soule why then are not corporall things per se or of their owne nature for spirituall things And whereas my Aduersarie Widdrington seemeth to say that euery temporall end is per accidens or accidentally referred to a spiritual end as by man who worketh for an end it is ordained to a spirituall end it is altogether false For oftentimes wicked men doe ordaine spirituall things to temporall of whom the Apostle saith whose God is their belly and by this a temporall end is per se and of it owne nature alwaies ordained to a spirituall end but by accident and against nature by the
mysticall bodie of Christ and the spirituall Kingdome of Christ are altogether the same of which common-wealth Kings with Laikes Bishops with Clerks are parts as oftentimes hath beene sayd In which Christian com-wealth and mysticall body and Kingdome of Christ all things are so well disposed and ordered that temporall things doe serue spirituall and ciuill power is subiect to Ecclesiasticall which conclusion my Aduersarie Widdrington hath many waies attempted to ouerthrow but he was not able And he was not able not onely to ouerthrow the conclusion but also he hath not beene able to weaken at all with any probable answer the first argument which Card. Bellarmine brought to prooue this conclusion which the Readers will easily perceiue if without perturbation of minde they will consider that which hath beene sayd by vs. 24 But this Reply of D. Schulckenius is as fraudulent and insufficient as the former for in effect it is only a repetition of his former Reply to which I haue already answered besides some fraudulent dealing which he hath vsed herein And first it is very true that I granted the antecedent proposition of this second Reply of Card. Bellarmine but that all the force of Card. Bellarmines argument doth consist in the antecedent proposition or assumption as D. Schulckenius affirmeth is very vntrue and I wonder that D. Schulckenius is not ashamed with such boldnesse to affirme the same The Antecedent proposition was that a Christian Prince is bound to change the manner of his temporal gouernment if it hurt the spirituall good not onely of his owne Subiects but also of the Subiects of other Christian Princes and this proposition I did willingly grant him but the force of his argument did not consist only in this antecedent proposition as D. Schulckenius vntruly affirmeth but in the consequence which hee inferred from this antecedent proposition or if wee will reduce his argument to a syllogisticall forme in his Minor proposition or assumption which was this but of this to wit that a Christian Prince is bound to change the manner of his temporall gouernment in the case aforesaid no other reason can be giuen but that both powers are members of the same body and one power or body subiect to the other And this consequence assumption or Minor proposition wherein the whole force of his argument did consist I vtterly denyed and I alledged as you haue seene an other plaine and perspicuous reason why a Christian Prince in the case aforesaid is bound to change the manner of his temporall gouernment to wit not for that temporall power is per se subiect to the spirituall or for that they make one totall bodie or common-wealth consisting of temporall and spirituall power but for that all Christians both Princes and subiects are parts and members not onely of the temporall but also of the spiritual common-wealth for which cause a Christian Prince is bound to change the manner of his temporall gouernment when it is hurtfull to the spirituall good of the Church or spirituall kingdome of Christ whereof he is a true part and member as I declared before 25. Secondly it is very vntrue that I doe any waie contradict my selfe as D. Schulckenius affirmeth first in denying that temporall power is per se subiect to the spirituall or that both of them are parts of one and the selfe-same Christian common-wealth or Church of Christ and afterwards in granting that temporall Kings and their subiects are members of the same spirituall kingdome or Church of Christ For these propositions temporall power is not per se subiect to spirituall power and temporall Princes are subiect to spirituall power are not repugnant or contradictorie one to the other as neither these propositions are contradictory Temporall power and spirituall power are not parts of the spirituall kingdome or Church of Christ and temporall Princes are parts of the spirituall kingdome or Church of Christ For contradiction according to Aristotle n Lib. 1. de Interp. cap. 4. is an affirming and denying of the same thing and in the same manner But there is no man so ignorant that will affirme that the same thing and in the same manner is affirmed and denied in the aforesaid propositions for the subiect of the first propositions is temporall power in abstracto and it is taken formally and in the second propositions it is temporall power in concreto and it is taken onely materially and hath this sense that temporall Princes who haue both temporall power and also spirituall subiection are indeed subiect to the spirituall power and are parts and members of the spirituall kingdome of Christ but not formally as they haue temporall power but onely materially who haue temporall power but formally as they haue spiritual subiection But D. Schulckenius doth manifestly contradict himselfe as I plainely shewed before o Cap. 2. first affirming That the Church of Christ is compounded of temporall and spirituall power which are formally two distinct powers as he himselfe also confesseth and afterwards in denying that it is compounded of temporall or ciuill power which is formally ciuill 26. But marke now good Reader what fraude D. Schulckenius vseth in prouing that I doe manifestly contradict my selfe He would seeme to his Reader to proue that I affirme and deny one and the selfe same thing for this he taketh vpon him to proue and yet he proueth nothing else but that which I haue alwaies affirmed and neuer denied to wit that Christian Kings and their subiects are parts and members of the Church and subiect to the spirituall power thereof but the contradiction which hee pretended to proue he doth not proue at all nor make any shew of proofe thereof to wit that it is all one to say that Christian Princes and their subiects are parts and members of the Church and subiect to her spirituall power which I alwaies granted and that the temporall and spirituall power doe compound the Church or that the temporall power it selfe is per se subiect to the spirituall power of the Church which I euer denied and out of Card. Bellarmines owne grounds haue cleerely proued the contrary and haue plainely shewed that temporall power doth only compound a temporall or ciuill body or common-wealth whereof the King is head as D. Schulckenius doth heere expresly affirme and that the Church of Christ his mysticall body and spirituall Kingdome or Christian common-wealth taking the Christian common-wealth for the Church onely and not for the Christian world as it containeth temporall and spirituall power is compounded onely of spirituall and not of temporall power In which Church of Christ and also Christian world all things are so well ordered and disposed that temporall things ought by the intention of good Christians to serue spirituall things and temporall Princes although in spiritualls they are subiect to the spirituall power of the Church yet in temporalls or as they haue temporall power they are not subiect but supreame and consequently the
punishments not onely by the way of command but also of coercion and constraint that is to punish them actually whether they will or no with spirituall punishments when they shall refuse to obey his iust command for that this manner of punishing by way of coercion doth not exceede the limits of the spirituall coerciue power 10. Now if my Aduersaries demand or mee why the spirituall power may of her selfe command temporall actions and yet neither directly nor indirectly that is neither for temporall nor spirituall good exercise temporall actions may command ciuill punishments when they are necessarie to the end of the spirituall power and yet neither directly nor indirectly punish actually with ciuill punishments without the concurrance of the spirituall power I answer them by their owne similitude which pleaseth them so much for the same reason that the soule hath power of her selfe to command bodily actions and yet neither directly nor indirectly that is neither for the good of the body nor of the soule to doe of her selfe alone any bodily action hath power to command bodily punishments and yet of her selfe hath not power to inflict any bodily punishment without the concurrance of the bodie it selfe And thus you see that this similitude of which Card. Bellarmine and his followers doe make so great account is no fit similitude to prooue their doctrine but rather to confirme ours and that from this similitude no probable argument can be drawen to prooue that the spirituall Pastour hath power either directly or indirectly to dispose of temporals to depose temporall Princes or to punish temporally by way of coercion or constraint 11. But fourthly although the temporall and spirituall power were aptly compared by Card. Bellarmine to the bodie and soule yet it would prooue two things more then he as I suppose would willingly admit The first is that the temporall power can exercise no temporall action without the concurrance and assistance of the spirituall power as the body can doe no corporall action vnlesse the soule also as an efficient cause thereof doe concurre thereunto For this is a cleere and approoued principle in philosophie that the soule is cause of all motions in the body according to that common definition or description of the soule assigned by Aristotle g 2. De Anima tex 24. Animaid est quo vinimus sentimus mouemur intelligimus primò The soule is that whereby we first or principally liue and haue sense and are mooued and doe vnderstand 12. The second is that the spirituall power may command or forbid the ciuill power to exercise ciuill actions not onely when they are necessarie or hurtfull to the end of the spirituall power which is the health of the soule but also when they are necessarie or hurtfull to the end of the temporall power which is temporall peace as the soule hath power to command or forbid the bodie to exercise bodily actions as to see heare speake c. not onely when they are necessary or hurtfull to the end and good of the soule which is spirituall life and health but also when they are necessarie or hurtfull to the good of the body which is bodily health and life And therefore Card. Bellarmine declaring this similitude of the spirit and flesh doth only affirme that the spirit doth command the flesh when her actions are hurtfull to the end of the spirit but cunningly omitteth that the spirit also dorh command the flesh when her actions are necessarie or hurtfull to the end of the flesh least the Reader should presently perceiue therby the disparity of this similitude or else from thence inferre that in the same manner the spirituall power may command the temporall power not onely in order to spirituall good but also in order to temporall good which is the Canonist doctrine and which Card. Bellarmine doth at large impugne 13. Lastly in what manner S. Gregory Nazianzene did compare the temporall and spirituall power or rather temporall and spirituall Princes to the bodie and soule I haue sufficiently declared before h Cap. 3. to wit not in the manner of their vnion or subiection but onely in nobility and in that temporall Princes are in as excellent and worthy manner subiect to temporall Princes as spirituall things are more excellent and worthy then temporall So that neither from the authority of S. Gregorie Nazianzene nor from the similitude it selfe of the bodie and soule as it is declared and vrged by Card Bellarmine can it with any probabilitie be gathered that the spirituall power can of her selfe exercise any temporall action belonging to the ciuill power without the concurrance of the ciuill power although it be necessarie to the end of the spirituall power as the soule cannot of her selfe without the concurrance of the bodie exercise any bodily action although it be necessarie to the end not onely of the body but also of the soule And therefore I maruell that Card. Bellarmine could bee so much ouerseene as to vrge and repeat so often this similitude of the soule and body to prooue the Popes power to depose and to dispose of all temporals which is so flat against him and which if it were a fit similitude doth rather confirme the doctrine of the Canonists whom Card. Bellarmine taketh vpon him to confute then his owne opinon But the truth is that it confirmeth neither for that as I declared before i Cap. 2.3 the temporall and spirituall power or the temporall and spirituall Common-wealth are not parts compounding one totall Body or Common-wealth as the bodie and soule doe compound a perfect man Chap 9. Wherein the fift argument to proue the subiection of the temporall power to the spirituall taken from the authoritie of S. Bernard and Pope Boniface the eight is examined 1. THe fift argument which Car. Bellarmine bringeth a Lib. 5. de Râ—m Pont. c. 7. to proue the subiection of the temporall power among Christians to the spirituall is taken from the authoritie of S. Bernard Lib. 4. de considerat and Pope Boniface the eight in the Extrauagant Vnam Sanctam who doth imitate saith Card. Bellarmine S. Bernards words The words of S. Bernard to Pope Eugenius are these Why dost thou againe attempt to vsurpe or vse b Vsurpare the sword which once thou wast commanded to put vp into the scabbard which neuerthelesse hee that denieth to be thine doth seeme to me not sufficiently to haue considered the speech of our Lord saying Returne thy sword into the scabbard Therefore it is also thine to be drawne forth perchance at thy becke c Nutu tuo or direction although not with thy hand Otherwise if also it doth in no maner appertaine to thee when the Apostles said Behold to swords heere our Lord had not answered It is enough but it is too much Therefore both the spirituall and the materiall sword doe belong to the Church but the materiall is indeed to bee exercised or drawne
forth for the Church but the spirituall also by the Church the spirituall with the hand of the Priest the materiall with the hand of the Souldier but indeed at the booke or direction of the Priest and at the command of the Emperour 2. The pricipall words of Pope Boniface besides those which hee doth imitate out of S Bernard are That in the Catholicke and Apostolike Church whereof Christ is the head and S. Peter his Vicar and in her power there be two swords the spirituall and the temporall as we are instructed by those words of the Gospell Behold heere that is in the Church two swords c. And that the sword must be vnder the sword the temporall authoritie subiect to the spirituall power For the spirituall the truth so witnessing hath to instruct the earthly power and to iudge if it be not good So of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical power the prophesie of Ieremy is verified behold I haue appointed thee this day ouer nations and Kingdomes and the rest which follow Therefore if the earthly power goeth out of the way shee shall be iudged by the spirituall power but if the inferiour spirituall power goeth out of the way shee shall be iudged by her superiour but if the supreme goeth out of the way shee can be iudged by God alone and not by man according to the testimony of the Apostle That the spiritual man iudgeth all things and he is iudged by none From all which Card. Bellarmine who only relateth S. Bernards words and affirmeth that Pope Boniface doth imitate the same doth conclude that the meaning of S. Bernard and Pope Boniface was to affirme that both the temporall and spiritual sword are in the power of the Pope that the Pope hath per se and properly the spirituall sword and because the temporall sword is subiect to the spirituall therefore the Pope may command or forbid a King the vse of the temporall sword when the necessitie of the Church doth require it 3. Thus you see what S. Bernard and Pope Boniface doe affirme and also that Card. Bellarmine inferreth and concludeth from their words And although to this which Card. Bellarmine inferreth from their words there needeth no answere at all for that I doe willingly grant all that which he doth inferre to wit that the temporall sword is subiect in some cases to the commanding power of the Pope and that the Pope may command or forbid a King the vse of the temporall sword when the necessitie of the Church shall require it seeing that the question betweene mee and Card. Bellarmine is not concerning the Popes commanding power and whether the Pope may command a King to vse the temporal sword in the necessitie of the Church as I haue oftentimes in all my Bookes expresly affirmed but concerning the Popes coerciue power and whether if a King will not vse the temporall sword at the Popes command the Pope hath power to vse it himselfe and may constraine a King not only with spirituall but also with temporal compulsion and punishment to fulfill his iust command Neuerthelesse because Card. Bellarmine hath now in his Schulckenius taken some exceptions against the answere which I made in my Apologie to the authortie of S. Bernard and consequently of Pope Boniface who as hee saith doth imitate S. Bernards words I thinke it not amisse to set downe my answere and also his Reply that so the Reader may cleerely perceiue whether S. Bernard doth fauour or disfauour Card. Bellarmines opinion concerning the Popes power to vse the temporall sword in case a temporall King will not vse it at the Popes command and whether D. Schulckenius hath sufficiently confuted the answere which I did make to the aforesaid authoritie of S. Bernard 4 Thus therefore I answered in my Apologie d Nu. 196. seq that the words of S. Bernard doe only signifie that both the materiall and the spirituall sword doe belong in some sort to the Church and are subiect vnto hir not for that the ciuill power is per se and of it owne nature subiect to the Ecclesiasticall or that the Church hath by the law of God any power to vse the materiall sword euen in order to spirituall good but because Christian Princes being children of the Church are bound and consequently the Church may command them and by Ecclesiasticall Censures compell them therevnto in defence of their holy mother the Church to vse the temporall sword Wherfore although the Church when she hath present need hath power to command or forbid the vse of the materiall sword or rather without any positiue or constitutiue command of the Church Secular Princes are bound in that case to vse it yet it doth not therefore follow that the Church hir selfe hath dominion right or power to vse the corporall sword seeing that to command the vse thereof and to vse it hir selfe are farre different things as I haue shewed before c Num. 99. yea and the very words of S. Bernard doe plainly shew as much For otherwise if the Church that is as shee consisteth of Ecclesiasticall power should haue the dominion of the materiall sword and might vse it in order to spirituall good it might by the law of God be drawne forth and vsed not only for the Church but also by the Church not onely with the hand of the souldier but also of the Priest which neuerthelesse S. Bernard doth affirme to be against our Sauiours command who commanded S. Peter to put vp his sworde into the scabberd 5 Wherefore I doe not mislike that very exposition if it be rightly vnderstood which Card Bellarmine him selfe gathereth from those words of S. Bernard who in this very place as you haue seen doth affirme that S. Bernard and Pope Boniface did by those words signifie that the Pope hath per se and properly the spirituall sword as a temporall Prince hath per se and properly the materiall sword and because the temporall power is subiect to the spirituall not per se but per accidens to command temporall things in order to spirituall good but not to punish temporally by way of coercion but only spiritually as I haue often declared therefore the Pop-hath power to command or forbid a King the vse of the temporall sword when the necessitie of the Church doth require it 6 Therefore the temporall sword according to the opinion of S. Bernard doth belong to the Pope and is called his sword for that when the necessitie of the Church doth require it is to bee drawne forth for the Church but not by the Church with the hand of the souldier but not of the Priest at the becke indeede or direction of the Priest but at the command of the Emperour By which last words S. Bernard doth signifie that the Emperour in vsing the temporall sword for the necessitie of the Church is indeed to bee directed by the Pope for that the Pope ought to declare when the
Church hath necessitie but the vse it selfe of the sword doth immediately depend vpon the Emperors command to whose command the souldiers in vsing the temporall sword are immediately subiect 7 But what if the Emperour shall refuse to vse the temporall sword at the Popes becke or direction Hath therefore the Pope according to S. Bernards opinion power to draw it forth himselfe or can the Emperour by the Popes authoritie be depriued of the dominion thereof No truly But because he doth not keepe that promise which he hath giuen to the Church and contrarie to the law of God hee doth not relieue the necessities of the Church the Church hath power to punish him with Ecclesiasticall and spirituall punishments as I haue often said Wherefore these words of S. Bernard doe nothing fauour the Popes temporall power or his power to vse the temporall sword but rather do directly concontradict it And this very answer hath Ioannes Parisiensis * in Tract de potest Regia Papali cap. 1â— in expresse words c. Thus I answered in my Apologie 8 Now you shall see how well D. Schulckenius replyeth to this my answer I answer saith he f Pag. 386. ad num 196. that which my Aduersarie Widdrington first doth say that both the swords doe belong to the Church hee saith well but that which hee addeth that both the swords are subiect to the Church he saith not well For the spirituall sword to bee subiect to the Church doth signifie no other thing then that the Popes power is subiect to the Church which is manifestly false whereas contrariwise it is to bee said that the Church is subiect to the spirituall sword or to the power of the Pope vnlesse perchance Widdrington be of opinion that the Sheepheard is subiect to his sheepe and not the sheepe to the Sheepheard 9 Marke now good Reader the cunning not to say fraudulent proceeding of this man Hitherto he hath as you haue seene taken the Church the Christian common-wealth the mysticall bodie or spirituall kingdom of Christ to be all one and to be one totall bodie consisting both of temporall and spirituall power and compareth hir to a man compounded of bodie and soule And may it not I pray you be rightly said that all the powers both of bodie and soule are subiect to man and why then may it not also be rightly said that the spirituall sword or power is subiect to the Church But now forsooth this Doctor that hee might take an occasion to charge me with a manifest falshood will not take the Church as hee tooke it before for the whole mysticall bodie of Christ which totall bodie includeth both the Pope and all other inferiour members thereof in which sense I did take the Church when I affirmed that not onely the spirituall but also the temporall sword is in some sort subiect to the Church but hee will take the Church for one part onely of this mysticall bodie to wit for all the members of the Church besides the Pope in which sense the Church is indeed sometimes taken as when the Church is compared with the Pope and it is said that the Pope is head of the Church but when the Church is compared with Christ and is said to be the mysticall bodie and spirituall kingdome of Christ the Church doth include both the Pope and all other inferiour members thereof who iointly make one totall bodie whereof Christ is the head And the very like is seene in the bodie of man for when the bodie is compared with the head the bodie doth not include the head but when the bodie is compared with the soule said to be subiect to the soule that of the bodie soule is made one man then the bodie doth also include the head 10. Wherefore taking the Church as it doth signifie the whole mysticall body of Christ in which sense both Card. Bellarmine himselfe and also S. Bernard in this very place doe take it when they affirme that the materiall sword is to be drawne foorth for the Church and the spirituall by the Church it is truly said that the spirituall sword is subiect to the Church Neither doth this signifie that the Popes spirituall power is subiect to the Church for now the Church is taken as it excludeth the Pope but rather that all spirituall power which is in any member of the Church is subiect to the whole body of the Church and consequently to the Pope in whom all the power of the Church according to Cardinall Bellarmines opinion doth reside And would not D. Schulckenius thinke that I did cauill if I should say of him as hee saith of mee that he spake not rightly when in this very place hee affirmeth that Christ gaue to the Church both the swords For the spirituall sword to be giuen to the Church doth signifie no other thing to vse his owne words then that the Popes power was by Christ our Sauiour giuen to the Church which in Card. Bellarmines opinion is not only manifestly false but also an erroneous doctrine 11. I omit now that the ancient Doctours of Paris who hould that the whole body of the Church taken collectiue and not including the Pope which a generall Councell lawfully assembled doth represent is superiour to the Pope would not thinke to speake any falshood at all if they should say that Christ gaue all the power which the Pope hath also to the Church and that the Popes power is subiect to the Church and that it doth not therefore follow that the Pastour is subiect to the sheepe or the superiour to the inferiour but rather contrariwise But in very truth this was not my meaning when I affirmed that both swords are in some sort subiect to the Church for by the name of Church I vnderstood also the Pope as I declared before 12. Secondly when Widdrington affirmeth saith D. Schulckenius that the ciuill power is not per se subiect to the Ecclesiasticall he doth corrupt the text of S. Bernard and of Pope Boniface the eight For when S. Bernard saith that the materiall sword is the Popes and is to bee drawne forth at his becke and direction he clearely confesseth that the materiall sword is subiect to the spirituall sword which Pope Boniface doth declare more plainely when he saith that the sword must be vnder the sword and temporall authoritie subiect to spirituall power 13. But how shamefully D. Schulckenius accuseth me of corrupting the text of S. Bernard and Pope Boniface let the Reader iudge seeing that I neither add nor diminish nor alter any one word of their text but doe say the very same words which they doe say For S. Bernard doth say that the materiall sword is the Popes and doth belong to the Pope but with this limitation in some sort to bee drawne foorth for the Church but not by the Church with the hand of the Souldier not of the Priest at the becke or direction of the
people to make and sweare an expresse promise of that the true faith loyalty and spirituall allegeance which as they are Christians and members of the mysticall body of Christ they doe owe by the Law of God to the supreme spirituall Pastour and visible head of this mysticall bodie and Church of Christ and the Emperour at his coronation taketh such an oath neuerthelesse I doe not affirme that the Pope hath power to constraine and punish disobedient Princes and people by vertue onely of the promise which they haue made to the Pope of their spirituall obedience but by vertue of his supreme spirituall power which he hath by the Law of God and his Pastorall authority giuen to him by our Sauiour Christ Iesus 32. True it is that the Reader might the better vnderstand that to command one to vse a temporall thing and to vse it himselfe to command one to dispose of temporals and to dispose of them himselfe are very different things and that the one doth not necessarily follow from the other I brought a familiar example of one who either by promise or by some other obligation and yet D. Schulckenius taketh hold onely of the promise and cleane omitteth the other obligation is bound to dispose and giue his goods or life at anthers command who notwithstanding this promise or other obligation doth still keepe the property dominion and right ouer his goods and life in such sort that the other cannot be vertue of his commanding power which he hath ouer him and them take them away and dispose of them without his consent but if hee will not dispose of his goods at the others command according as by vertue either of his promise or of some other obligation he is bound to doe the other may complaine to the Magistrate that hee will punish him for his offence or cause him to performe his promise so far forth as the coerciue power of the Magistrate doth extend From which I concluded that considering to haue the power to command the vse of the temporall sword and to haue a power to vse it or to depriue of the vse thereof are two different things neither doth one necessarily follow from the other although the Pope as Pope hath according to S. Bernard power to command the Emperour to vse the temporall sword yet it doth not therefore follow that if the Emperour will not vse the temporall sword at the Popes command the Pope as Pope can vse it himselfe or depriue the Emperour of the vse thereof which implieth a power to vse the same but onely that the Pope being a spirituall Prince or Pstour may punish the Emperor for his contempt with spirituall punishments which only doe belong to the coercive power of the supreme spirituall Prince Pastor of the spirituall kingdome Church of Christ 33. Thus therefore you haue seen that S. Bernard doth nothing fauour but it is rather flat contrarie to the Popes power to vse the temporall sword neither could he scarse speake more cleerely against the same then he hath done For although it be cleere that the temporall sword is according to S. Bernard the Popes in some sort and doth belong to the Church in some sort which words in some sort D. Schulckenius heere cunningly omitteth and that in some cases it must be vsed at the becke direction or declaratiue command of the Pope yet the aforesayd limitations of S. Bernard that it is the Popes and belongeth to the Pope in some sort that it is to be vsed for the Church but not by the Church with the hand of the Souldier and not of the Priest at the becke indeede of the Pope but at the command of the Emperour and that our Sauiour commanded and not only counselled S. Peter to put vp his sword into the scabard do plainly shew that according to S. Bernard the Pope as Pope cannot vse the temporal sword nor constrain a temporall Prince by vsing temporall punishments which doth imply a power to vse the temporal sword 34. And for D. Barclay and Iohn of Paris to omit our learned Country-man Alexander of Hales whose words I related before p Num. 18. who doe giue the very same answere which I haue giuen to the aforesaid words of S. Bernard of whose authoritie although Card. Bellarmine heere doth make very small reckoning yet I do plainly confesse that in this controuersie concerning the Popes authoritie to vse the temporall sword and to dispose of all temporals in order to spirituall good I doe more regard their authoritie then I doe Card. Bellarmines speaking with all dutifull respect for that in my opinion they haue handled this question more soundly more cleerely and more sincerely then he hath done Neither is their doctrine repugnant to the Councell of Laterane but onely to the particular exposition which som few especially of late yeeres who haue scraped together all the authorities of Fathers Councells Scriptures facts and decrees of Popes which may seeme any way to fauour the Popes temporall authoritie haue wrested out the words of the said Councel contrarie to the plaine sense of the words and the common vnderstanding of all ancient Diuines who neuer vrged this authoritie of the Councell of Laterane although it hath beene so long publikely extant in the body of the Canon Law But it is now adaies a common fault euen among Catholike Diuines and those also who not perceiuing their owne errour doe accuse others of the same to alleadge in confirmation of their opinions the holy Scriptures and sacred Councels vnderstood according to their owne priuate spirit and meaning and then to cry out against their brethren who mislike their opinions that they haue the holy Sriptures and sacred Councels on their side and that therefore their doctrine is of faith and the contrary hereticall and that their Aduersaries doe oppose themselues against the holy Scriptures and decrees of the Catholike Church whereas wee doe regard with all dutifull respect the holy Scriptures sacred Councels and decrees of the Catholik Church the authority of which consisteth in the true and authenticall sense not in the letter or in the expositiō of any priuate Catholike Doctour which exposition others doe contradict and do oppose our selues only against their vncertaine opinions and expositions of holy Scriptures or sacred Councells grounded vpon their priuate spirit and vnderstanding contrary to the true proper and plaine meaning of the words 35. And although this Ioannes Parisiensis or rather another Iohn of Paris liuing at the same time and surnamed de Poliaco as I said before q Part. 1. ca. 3. nu 7. seq was cōpelled to recall in open Consistory at Auinion before Pope Iohn the 22. certain errors which he maintained cōcerning confession and absolution of whose authoritie neuerthelesse Card. Bellarmine in the latter Editions of his controuersies notwithstanding those his errours maketh some rekoning seeing he citeth him as a Classicall Doctour in fauour of his opinion
vertue of Religion in vsing their power vnlawfully but they should not sinne for doing that which they haue no power to doe as hee who is no Priest or Bishop should in consecrating or giuing orders offend for that the power of a Priest to consecrate and of a Bishop to giue orders cannot either wholly or in part bee taken away from them by the Pope So likewise although a spirituall Pastor should for iust cause forbid a temporall Prince who is his spirituall child and subiect to excercise his Regall power and authority ouer Clergy men if that temporall Prince should heerein transgresse the command of his spirituall Pastor supposing it to bee lawfull hee should indeed offend against religion in vsing his Regall power and authority contrary to the lawfull command of his spirituall Pastor which command was imposed for the motiue of Religion neuerthelesse hee should not offend against iustice in doing that which hee hath no power and authority to doe in that manner as another man who is not their Prince should by depriuing them of their goods or punishing their persons if they transgresse the lawes offend For that it is not in the power of a spirituall Pastor to depriue a temporall Prince either wholly or in part of his Regall power and temporall Soueraignty 40 Wherefore if wee respect the power it selfe and the vertue of legall or morall iustice a temporall Prince hath full ample and supreme royall power and authority ouer Clergy men notwithstanding that his spirituall Pastor should for iust cause command him not to exercise his Regall power vpon the persons of Clergie men who doe offend his lawes but if wee respect rhe vse and execution of the power and the vertue of religion the vse indeed of his power in the aforesaid case is so limited by the lawfull command of the spirituall Pastor that the Prince vsing his power ouer Clergy men sinneth against Religion for that hee disobeyeth the lawfull command of his spirituall Superiour which was imposed for the motiue of religion but not against iustice for that hee doth not excercise his Regall power but vpon those who are his Subiects and doe owe vnto him true loyalty and temporall obedience 41 And truely if the aforesaid obiection were of force that the temporall Prince hath no power or authority ouer Clergie men who are subiect to him in temporalls against the lawfull command of his spirituall Pastour because he hath no power to sinne it would likewise follow that a suspended Bishop or Priest haue no power to giue orders or to consecrate because they haue no power to sinne and a penitent hath no lawfull right or power to sell or giue away his goods against the lawfull command of his Ghostly Father because he hath no power to sinne and a man hath no power or right to giue money to a dishonest end or to giue away his goods prodigally and consequently they should be restored back againe because he hath no power to sinne I will say nothing at this time how farre Cleargie men either by the priuiledges of Christan Princes or by the Ecclesiasticall Canons are de facto exempted both in their goods and in their persons from ciuill powers but onely I thought good at this time to set downe the true state of the question among Catholikes concerning the authority of spirituall Pastours to exempt Cleargie men from the temporall power of Christian Princes that thereby they may clearely perceiue what kinde of argument may be drawne from the exemption of Cleargie men to proue the Popes power to depose Princes and by way of sentence to depriue them wholy of their Regall authoritie 42 Thus you haue seene in what manner temporall thinges are subiect to spirituall temporall endes to spirituall endes temporall power to the spirituall power the temporall sword to the spirituall sword the flesh to the spirit the Moone to the Sunne and temporall Princes to spirituall Pastors and that from the subiection and subordination of the temporall power to the spirituall no good argument can be brought to proue that the Pope by vertue of his spirituall power can dispose of temporalls depose temporall Princes or punish temporally by way of coercion but onely that in order to spirituall good he can command temporalls and punish temporally by way of command but by way of coercion onely with spirituall and not with temporall punishments And by this which hath bene saide the Reader may easily vnderstand the true sense and meaning of a certaine proposition which Card. Bellarmine in his Schulckenius doth often inculcate as though there were some great mystery lye hidden therein to proue the Popes power to depose temporall Princes to wit that a Christian Prince is a child of the Church and subiect to the Pope not onely as he is a Christian man but also as he is a Christian Prince and the same he affirmeth of a Christian â—awyer of a Christian Souldier of a Christian Physitian and so of the rest 43 For all these three propositions A Christian Prince as he is a Christian Prince is a child of the Church and subiect to spirituall Pastours A Christian Prince as he is a Christian is a Child of the Church and subiect to spirituall Pastours and a Prince as he is a Christian is a Childe of the Church and subiect to spirituall Pastours haue one and the selfe same sense and so likewise of a Christian Lawier of a Christian Soldier of a Christian Physitian c. For the true meaning of them all is that Christianitie and not Regall authority or the knowledge of lawe warfare or Physicke is the cause why a Prince a Lawier a Soldier a Physitian and all other men of what trade soeuer they be are Children of the Church and subiect to spirituall Pastours and that therefore they are to be directed and instructed by spirituall Pastours not precisely in the rules of ciuill gouernment in the rules of lawe warfare or Physicke but onely in the rules and principles of Christian doctrine and how they ought to gouerne ciuilly and vse their knowledge and trades according to the rules and precepts of Christian Religion which if they refuse to doe they may be corrected and punished by spirituall Pastours with spirituall or Ecclesiasticall punishments 44 But from hence it doth not follow that either temporall power the knowledge of the lawe warfare or physicke are among Christians per se subiect to the spirituall power but onely per accidens as I haue often declared and in those thinges which doe concerne or belong to Christian Religion or that spirituall Pastours can by vertue of their spirituall power correct or punish Christian Princes Lawiers Soldiers Physitians c. by depriuing them by way of sentence of their Regall authoritie of their skill and knowledge in the lawes in warfare or Physicke which they did not receiue from the spirituall power but onely by depriuing them of the Sacraments and such like spirituall benifites of which they
was Catholike and if it had not beene Catholike the Church defining it to bee Catholike should haue erred therefore it was Catholike and reuealed by God before the Church defined it Wherefore the Church cannot make a new Article of faith but that which before was true faith but not certainely knowne to vs the Church by her definition maketh it knowne to vs. 108 In like maner wee haue this from the Church to know certainly which is diuine Scripture and we are bound to account that to be diuine Scripture which the Church hath defined to be diuine And although shee doth certainely define and cannot erre yet shee doth not make by her definition that Scripture to bee diuine for therefore shee hath declared it to be diuine because it was truely diuine and if it had not beene before diuine Scripture the Church would not haue declared it to be diuine Wherefore although that assertion which is condemned by the Catholike Church to be contrary to Catholike faith and to bâ—e accounted heresie was also heresie before the definition of the Church yet before the Church did define it the maintainers of that opinion were not called heretickes because it was not knowne whether that opinion was contrary to Catholike faith but now after the definition of the Church they shall bee called hereticks whosoeuer shall approue and maintaine that opinion not for that their opinion was not before false contrary to Catholike faith and heresie but because this name of heretickes beeing infamous and appertaining to that most heinous crime doth require a certaine pertinacy and rebellion departing from the definitions of the Catholike Church which could not truely be accounted at that time when it was doubtfull and disputable and the Church had not defined whether that opinion was repugnant to Religion and faith 109. In this sense therefore it may be said that the Church hath power to declare an assertion to be Catholike and to appertaine to Catholike faith to this effect that after the definition of the Church the said assertion is so manifestly of faith that he is to be accounted an obstinate hereticke who defending the contrary shall depart from that definition although before the definition of the Church the said assertion albeit was most true and Catholike yet by reason of the doubt and controuersie touching that point hee could not iustly be called an heretick who should allow and follow the contrary position And what hath bene said if there be any doubt or controuersie touching any text of holy Scripture and the true sense thereof is proportionally to be vnderstood if there be any doubt or controruersie touching any definition of the Church and the true sense thereof as wee see there is now a controuersie betwixt the Diuines of Rome and Paris touching the definition of the Councell of Constance concerning the Superiority of the Church or a Generall Councell aboue the Pope and among many other Catholikes touching the decrees and declarations of diuerse other Generall Councells and now lately touching the sense of those words of the Councell of Lateran Si vero Dominus temporalis c. But if the temporall Lord c. Which some Catholikes of late haue greatly vrged to proue the Popes power to depose Princes whereof beneath b Part. 3. cap. 9. seq we will discourse at large 110. From this doctrine which neither Mr. Fitzherbert nor any other can proue to be improbable it cleerely followeth that heresie being a falshood repugnant to holy Scriptures or diuine reuelation with the same certainty or probability wherewith one is perswaded that such a doctrine or position is false and repugnant to holy Scriptures or diuine reuelation with the same certainty or probabilitie hee may abhorre detest and abiure that doctrine for hereticall And consequently it followeth that if it be lawfull to abhorre detest and abiure for impious damnable and false doctrine repugnant to truth contained in the word of God this Doctrine and position That Princes which be excommunicated or depriued by the Pope may be deposed or murthered by their Subiects or any other which position for that it concerneth practise and not onely speculation is in very deed false impious damnable and repugnant to truth contained in holy Scriptures and ought so to be accounted not onely by those who are of opinion that the Pope hath not power to depriue Princes but also so long as this question remaineth vndecided and in controuersie by those who doe speculatiuely thinke that hee hath authority to depriue them it is lawfull also to abiure it for hereticall And this I hope may suffice for the defence of my first and principall answeare and for the confutation of M. Fitzherberts Reply therevnto 111. The Second answere which I haue heard many Catholikes giue to the aforesaid obiection of the Authour of that English Dialogue against the word hereticall contained in this clause of the oath and which Answeare Mr. Fitzherbert laboureth in vaine to ouerthrow I related c Cap. 5. Sec. 2. nu 28. 29 in these words The second principall answeare which some of our Countrimen doe make to the aforesaid obiection is gathered from the doctrine of Card. Bellarmine who expounding d Lib. 2. de Concil cap. 12. that sentence of Pope Gregory the first e Lib. 1. epist 24. I confesse that I doe receiue the foure first Councells as the foure bookes of the Gospell affirmeth that the aduerbe as doth import a similitude and not an equality as that of Matth. 5. Be you perfect as your heauenly Father is perfect For in like manner these Catholiks doe answeare that those words I doe abhorre detest and abiure as heretical c. doe not import an equality but a similitude and that in common speech they doe onely signifie that I doe exceedingly detest that doctrine And so wee vsually say I hate him as the diuel I loue him as my brother not intending thereby to affirme that the one is in truth a Diuel or the other my brother 112 Now to omit the word murthered as though there were no mention at all made in the oath concerning the murthering of Princes and to speake onely of deposing them these men affirme that the aforesaid position Princes which be excommunicated or depriued by the Pope may be deposed by their Subiects or any other supposing that this question concerning the Popes power to depose Princes is not yet decided is in their iudgments a false and seditious proposition and that it hath some similitude with heresie not for that they thinke it to be in very deed hereticall taking hereticall in that strict sense as some Catholikes doe take it but for that they doe constantly hold it to be of such a nature that it may be condemned by the Church for an hereticall proposition and then the maintainers thereof to be pâ—operly heretikes if deposing be taken in that sense as it is in this branch of the oath distinguished from depriuing For to