⧠Ane answer made the fourth day of septembre a thousand fyue hundreth syxtie one by maister Theodore de Besza minister of the holie Euangile in the presence of the Quene mother the King and Quene of Nauarre the Princes of the blood royall and of the priuie counseil vnto that whiche the Cardinall of Lorraine had replied against that whiche was propounded in the first iourney of their talking together by the said de Besza in the name of the reformed Churches Together with an other short answer made by the said de Besza the 26 day of the said moneth vnto certein articles of replie set forth by the said Cardinall Imprinted at Edinburgh by Robert Lekprewik Cum priuilegio 1562. Iohn Baron to the reader wâ—heâ— grace mercie and peace c. WHen as thies two orations of that great learned and right godlie minister of gods worde Theoder De Besza were broght vnto me to be traÌ„slated out of frenche into englishe geÌ„tle Reader for that of certen yeres before I knew y e man to be of so great knowledge and specially so greatly fearing God I was driuen with a great desyre to reade them and after that I had redde them with a more feruent desyre was I rapt whatsoeuer other busynes I had to do being layd asyde to traÌ„slate them Not onely for that they flowed from suche a notable instrument of God but also specially because that in the name and by aduise and assent of so many excellent and godlie learned ministeres they were pronounced and that in suche a famouse and moste honorable audience The matters conteined in the same orations be maters of oure religion suche as at this present be in controuersie and therefore moste nedefull to be knowen vnto the faithfull of oure cuntrie the faithfull I mean that be but of simple knowledge yet be desyrous to learne Aswell because thereby they may by vertue of gods word establish their consciences in the treuth of these maters as also for that they may there summarelie haue in a redynes oute of y e holie Scriptures good and sufficient auctorities to defend them selues in the same against the malicious soldiors of Satan the Papistes and lykewise to confounde them with all their sophisticall and vnreasonable reasons whiche haue not onely of a long season moste craftely seduced many but also moste crewelly suppressed and destroied many of the faithfull with the name and auctoritie of the Churche whiche they moste wrongfully and iniuriously arrogated to them selues when as in very dede they were and be no thing els but the horrible and filthie Synagoge of y e deuill as by their stinking and detestable maners and theire blasphemous and moste pestilent doctrine whiche be their frutes may moste euidently appere vnto all them whiche haue any knowledge in y e worde of God For without any lawfull calling by diuerse vnlefull meanes boeth against Gods law and mans law haue they intruded them selues into the Churche of God and in stede of the liuely worde of God they haue taught their owne doctrine and dreames and the holy Sacramentes with their away taking that whiche the Lorde Iesus instituted and commanded and with their to putting many things whiche the Lorde Iesus neuer commanded they haue altogether altered and contamined So that in stede to haue God honored and the people of God edified taught strengthened and coÌ„forted they haue dishonored and blasphemed the Maiestie of God and to their vtermoste discouraged and destroyed his people But the chief maters herein contened be thies The Churche and what it is the marcks of the true Churche what aucthoritie it haeth whether it may erre If it please thee gentle Reader with iudgement of a sincere heart to consider thies orations thou shalt finde the same boeth godlie and learnedly declared to the praise of God and edefieng of his faithfull people An answer made the twentie four day of Septembre a thousand fyue hundreth sixtie and one Being arriued at Poissy twelue ministers of the worde of God iÌ„ an hall where were present the Quene mother the King and Quene of Nauarre the princes of the blood royall and all the Lordes of Counsell and other Lordes of the one parte and on the other parte fyue Cardinalles with many busshops and Theologues of all sortes The Lorde Cardinall of Lorrane declared in few wordes that this assemblie was made to heare what that we had to say vnto that which he had propounded eight dayes before whervnto Theodore de Besza rising vp in the name of the said 12 ministers for all the frenche Churches reformed answered as followeth hauing an verie good audience and attention of all the assemblie Madame first calling vpon the name of oure Lorde God that it may please him to assist vs with his especiall grace in an mater of so great consequence that we may be vtterly voyde of all particuler opinions and passions and that their might be planted in to oure heartes in stede thereof a right knowledge of his veritie with an earnest desire to set it forth to the honnor of his holie name and to the auancement of youre maiestie and to the quietnes of all Christendome and namelie of this realme we shall brieflie answer vnto that whiche it haeth plesed the Lorde Cardinall to declare vnto vs vpon two pointes onelie of our confession which haeth bene three tymes presented vnto youre maiestie to wit vpon that whiche concerneth the Churche and the aucthoritie thereof and vpon the holy supper of oure Lorde Iesus Christe Trew it is that if we might haue had the fauore to haue made answer immediatlie when as we had a freshe remembrance of that that we had heard or els that we might haue had in oure handes the said oration to consider it we might haue answered more destinctly point by point and perhappes more properly But how soeuer it be we shall speak thereof that w c God will giue vnto vs so that men may vnderstaÌ„d wherein we may alredie be accorded and likwyse the pointes wherein as yet we vary and be different whereof we humblie pray oure God that according to his great mercies it may please him to aggree vs. So now as touching y e first point of the Churche we shall treat it in thre partes The first what is the Churche The seconde what be the markes of it The third what is the authoritie thereof It is moste certen that this name of the Churche is taken and drawen oute of a greke worde whiche signifieth as muche as to call frome one place to an other But we find in the Scripture that there is two maner of callinges the one is â—oyned with the efficacie of the holy Spririt of the whiche is spoken in y e right chapitre of the Epistle to the Romains where it is said that God â—ustifieth them that he calleth the other althogh it be the self same outwardlie as the first is yet is it
them that are superfluouse These pointes being resolued it is easie to decyde this question if the Churche be aboue the Scripture the whiche semeth to me to be so foolish a question as if one asked whether the infant or childe were aboue his father the woman aboue her husband yea the man aboue God And in very dede the trew Churche will neuer striue against God in suche a quarrell nor none other but will escaip condemnation And it serueth to no purpose to say that the Churche was before the Scripture For althogh that so it be yet it is so that this worde that afterwardes haeth bene written is alweys more ancient seinge that by the same the Churche hath bene conceiued ingendred and nourished as it haeth bene said The saying of S. Augustine is alledged in this behalf I wold not beleue the Scripture if y e authoritie of the Churche moued me not thereunto But here must ye coÌ„sider that Saint Augustine speaketh of him self as a Manicheen When therefore two parties will debate or stryue for the treuth of an instrument vnto whome shall they haue recourse but vnto notaâ—ies w c kepe the registre thereof And yet notwithstanding it can not be said that the register is founded vpone y e witnessinges of notaries the whiche should not faill to be trew althogh no man liuing bare witnes thereof Euen so muche hereof must we answer vnto them that think that the authoritie of the canonicall bookes is not founded vpon that whiche the Churche haeth determined thereof as if it were so that there were found determinations of Councelles altogether diuers in this pointe y t whiche may be more at large declared in a mutuall conference It shall suffice me to alledge besides y t whiche I haue before spoken one onely reason accompanyed with the authoritie of some of the ancientes that be well approued The reason is this that Iesus Christ him self haeth so muche honored y e doctrine of the Prophetes that he ratified and proued his doctrine by y e witnessing of them S. Paule suffered that they of Tessalonique should do the lyke as it is written in the 17 chaptre of y e Actes Saint Petre haeth expresly allowed this maner of doing Then must not they that say that they be the vicares of Iesus Christe and successors of Saint Petre and S. Paule refuse the lyke condition And further consider what S. Ierome sayeth in the 9 chaptre of his second booke vpone Ieromie y t men must nether follow the error of their fathers nor of their ancitors but the authoritie of the Scriptures And Saint Chrisostome vpone the 24 of Saint Mathew in the 49 homelie The same man sayeth he that wold knowe whiche is y e trew Churche of Iesus Christe how shall he know it in so great a confusion of suche semblance or liknes also why is it that in y e tyme then all the Christians oght to retire and draw them selues to the Scriptures Forasmuche as that after that tyme that heresie had obteined and occupyed the Churches there might be no certeÌ„ probation had of the trew Christianitie nor other refuge vnto Christians willing to know the treuth of the faith but the holie Scriptures Lykewyse oure Lorde knowing so great confusion to come in the latter dayes coÌ„maÌ„deth that the Christians whiche be in the Christianitie w c wold haue a trew and firme fayth should haue none other refuge but to y e Scriptures or els if they regarded other thinges they should be offended and perishe not knowinge what were the trew Churche and by that meanes they should fall in to the abhomination of desolation y t whiche is set in the holy place of the Churche Saint Basill also in his moralles the 12 chaptre of the 9 somme writeth thus if all thing that is without faith is sinne as the Apostle saieth and faith is by hearing and hearing is of the worde of God all that is without the Scripture whiche is inspired of God is sinne Lykewyse the same author in his sermon of the confession of the faith If the Lorde be faythful in all his wordes and all his coÌ„mandementes be sure for euer done in veritie and righteousnes It is manifestly to turne froÌ„ the faith and a cryme of pride to reiecte any thing of that that is written or to introduce any thing more that haeth not bene written seing that oure Lorde Iesus Christ haeth said my shepe heare my voice follow not a stranger but flie froÌ„ him because they knowe not his word Hitherto Madame I haue answered according to the measure of the knowledge that God haeth geuen vs vnto y e first point of the last oration of my Lordes the Prelates concerning the estate and authoritie of y e Churche of oure Lorde Where of as yet we are redy to vnderstaÌ„d all that shalbe shewed vnto vs by the pure worde of God There resteth the article of the Supper the w c I will leaf of if it please youre Maiestie aswell because ye are to long holden and all the present assistance as also because of the desire that we haue that this conference should be begonne after a better ordre because all that in speaking soÌ„marelie of a mater y t hitherto haeth bene wrapped vp in so greate obscuritie it should be very hard but that many wordes shoulde escape how trew soeuer they were that shoulde offend the heartes of them that should heare them Neuerthelesse if it pleaseth youre Maiestie that we go forwarde we are redy to speak therof that whiche the Lorde will giue vs to vnderstand Submitting alweys oure selues vnto that whiche shalbe shewed by the holy Scriptures And make humble supplication vnto youre maiestie to be persuaded that next to y e glorie of God there is no thing that we seke with so greate desyre as the rest and quietnes of youre Maiestie of all this Realme ⧠Ane answer the xxvj day of septembre the yere a thousand fyue hundreth sixtie and one â–ª Being arriued at Poyssy twelue ministers of the worde of God with twelue deputies of Churches in an hall where was the Quene mother the King Quene of Nauarre the princes of the blood royall and all the Lordes of Councell and other Lordes of the one syde of the other part 5 Cardinalles w t many busâ—hops and Theologiens of all sortes My Lorde Cardinall of Lorrain declared in few wordes that this assemble was made to heare what y e said ministers had to say vnto that whiche he had proponded two dayes befor whereat Theodore rase vp in the name of the said xij ministers for all the Churches of France that be reformed and answered as followeth Madame the last tyme y t it pleased you to giue vs audience we made declaratioÌ„ according to y e grace that oure Lord gaue vs of the article y t was propouÌ„ded touching the Churche the marckes and authoritie of
Micheas yea the Sonne of God him self and after him the Apostles but the assemblies of the Prelates of Israell If hereunto it be answered that these thinges happened in the tyme of the olde Testament I answer that it is not ynough spoken nor derectly answered For the conclusion will alweys be ferme and sure that the assemblie of Prelats of the Churche how generall soeuer that it was haue ofteÌ„ tymes bene gouerned by the Spirit of error rather then by the holy Goste Secondly if we come to the new Testament S. Paule haeth not he expresly warned the Ephesiens in y e name of all the Churche that there shoulde wolues come oute frome amongest the mids of the Pastors that the sonne of perdition shoulde sit in the temple of God And in very dede in conferring the Councelles one with an other there will appere so many contrarieties amongest them selues that of very force ye must confesse that the holy Goste haeth not alweys there had audieÌ„ce but that Satan for a long tyme past haeth transfigured him self into the lyght of generall Councelles for to disguise and hyde his falshode There is a place in S. Augustine y t expresseth this in his second booke of Baptisme agaiÌ„st the Donatistes 3 chaptre the whiche I haue alledged in the first oration and now for a cause will alledge it again there it is expresly said that the Epistles of the particuler Busshops be corrected by the prouinciall Councelles and the prouinciall Councelles by the generall Councelles the first generall Councelles adnulled by the last when as by experieÌ„ce of things that whiche was close is opened that whiche was hidde is made euident Unto this my Lorde Cardinall answered iÌ„ his oration y t this was to be vnderstand of exterior or outward things whiche might oght to vary according as nede requireth But considering the hole mater nerer it is found that this worde Emendari presupposeth that there was a faute coÌ„mitted and after corrected also if this answer shoulde be receiued ye must say lykewyse of the particuler Epistles of the busshops and prouinciall Councelles the whiche is directly against the intention of Saint Augustine whiche reasoneth there of this point and not of any exterior policie but of one point of doctrine to wit of the opinion of Saint Cyprian and of the Councell of Affricke touching rebaptisation If there be also alledged an other argument whiche they vse to wit if oure Lorde haeth promised to be in y e myddes of two or three gathered to gether in his name now by greater reason wil he be in an assemblie vniuersall we grant that so it may be presumed but there is a difference betuene a presumption and a necessarie conclusion For y e malice of man coÌ„meth often tymes vnto this point to abuse the name of God to establishe their lesings that suche may haue God in theire mouth whiche haue his enemy in their hart The weaknes of man is so great y t there is comonlie in him an infinite nombre of dissordinate affections whiche blind oure eyes so that we say that he whiche haeth none other foundation then the aduyse of men and the outward apperance of a CouÌ„cell is rather in danger to be deceiued theÌ„ otherwys What then Wold we y t the doctrine of y e Churche should be vncertain seing it may erre No thing les For we confesse that as yet we know in a parte as Saint Paule saieth in this respect there is alweys error mingled with the veritie yet neuertheles God suffereth not that the veritie in y e substanciall pointes of oure saluatioÌ„ be euer so buried in all his Churche y t there is not alweys some nombre now more now lesse y t vnderstaÌ„deth y t whiche they oght to vnderstaÌ„d do follow that whiche they oght to follow Thus we see that it came passe in Israell in the tyme of Elias and in the tyme of the captiuitie of Babilon in the tyme of the cuÌ„ming of Iesus Christe when as scarsely was there found a Zacharie an Elizabeth a Ioseph a Uirgin Marie a Simeon and an Anna the Prophetesse whiche had a vnderstanding of the fulfilling of the Prophetes amongest so great corruptions of Scrybes Pharises and Sadduces Suche interruptions therefore in the Churche of God ê“ceding and coÌ„ming of the iniquitie of men be as a storme or cloudy wether whiche afterwardes he causeth to vanishe away with y e brightnes of his worde as it pleaseth him and according as he distributeth the secretes of his iudgementes and of mercies Are we willing lykewyse thus to condemne the ancient Councelles God forbid For as ye your selues know ryght well y t if it were in question to be reuled by them ye should change mo thinges then we ye haue trauelled therein these dayes past but we require y t the Scripture be the touche stone for to examyn all that is done and said in the Churche If this seme strange I pray you my Lordes to coÌ„sider this moste renouned place of Saint Augustine writing vnto Maximin Arian in the seconde booke chaptre 14 Is there any generall CouÌ„cell more authorised then the first called the Councell of Nece And what is y e Councell of Arimin A Councell reiected and coÌ„demned that worthely And whereof disputeth S. Augustine Euen of a principall article of the beleif y t which had bene before that often tymes fully resolued to wit of the CoÌ„substancialitie of the Sonne of God in this mean season ye may see that S. Augustine witnesseth that for his part he is not astricted nether to y e CouÌ„cell of Nece nor yet to the CouÌ„cell of Arimin but that he will fight w t the Scriptures whiche be saieth he coÌ„mon witnesses vnto bothe parties If any body will against this alledge the obscuritie of the Scriptures we must nedes confesse that whiche S. Paule saieth that y e naturall man knoweth not those thiÌ„ges that be of God and that whiche Saint Peter sayeth y t the Scriptures be not of any priuate interpretation Well then if this obscuritie be so great that the Scriptures can not be exponded by them selues whence cometh this that Christe seÌ„deth vs no where els when he sayeth searche the Scriptures And how coÌ„meth it to pas y t Abraham being required by the vnhappy riche man to send some of the other world to admonishe them of this worlde they haue sayeth he Moses and the Prophetes if they beleue not them no more will they beleue when any shall ryse again from the dead And moreouer in what case had they bene in then that had no thing but y e scriptures of the Apostles before y t euer there was any coÌ„mentaries written by the Ancients And yet further I remembre my Lorde Cardinall y t in youre oration youre aduyse was to receiue for sure interpretation and Apostolycall tradition that whiche haeth bene alweys
of no value vnto saluation not that the faute thereof commeth of God but of the men that wil be deaf following y t whiche is coÌ„monlie said that there is none deafer then he y t will not vnderstand And of this calling haeth the Lord spoken when he said there be many called and few chosen Beholde therefore consequently it behoueth that this name of the Churche signifieng the company of them that are gathered together by the voyce of God whiche haeth called them is taken two wayes For being taken generally for alâ— them whiche make outwarde profession to answer vnto God whiche calleth them there is no dout buâ— there be many hypocrites and reprobat comprehended therein And for oure part my Lorde Cardinall neuer God be praysed haue we spoken nor written otherwayes seing it is a thing whereof we neuer had debate because it is moste clerelie expressed in the Scriptures and confirmed by a continuall experience But yf nede be to take this name of the Churche more properly and more streitlie as often tymes it must nedes be taken then say we that it doth not comprehend any but the assemblie of the elect and predestinate of God And to the intent that ye may vnderstand y t we haue not forged this maner of speaking and yet les this â—inde of doctrine seing it is said that â—he Churche is the body of the Lord â—one of his bones flesh of his flesh â—ea specially to attribute vnto it the proper name of Christe in ioyning â—ogether the head and the membres â—s doeth y e Apostle writing vnto the Corinthians how then be the reproâ—ate comprehended in this nomâ—re seing they be y e membres of the Deuill For it is a thing vnpossible â—o be of the membres of Christe of â—he Deuill at ones This is it whiche S. Augustine wonderfully well haeth noted iÌ„ his seconde booke â—he 12 chaptre against Cresconius The same distinction of y e name of â— Churche the self same authour vsed writing vpon 64 Psalme where â—e sayeth y t the Churche whiche 〈◊〉 signified by Ierusalem begonne at Abell and Babilon by Cain And yet this notwithstanding in hâ—â— first booke of Baptisme against thâ— Donatistes the 16 chaptre taking thâ— Churche in a more generall significaâ—tion he sayeth that the same which did engendre Abell Enoch Noe Abâ—raham the Prophetes haeth alsâ— engendred Cain Ismaell and otherâ— lyke For conclusion therefor wâ— will take that whiche the same Sâ— Agustine haeth written thereof in â— same treatise in the 17 booke 57 chaâ—ptre the whiche is also rehearsed in the 24 question the first chaptre omnibus considerates c. where is said that there be two maâ—ner of men touching the Churche For he saieth the one be membres of Christ and the right Churche â— so of the house of God that they be y e self same house The other are truely in the house of God and yet be they none of the same for they be as the chaffe with the wheat vntill y t they go oute Now by this meanes groweth there a question to wit whether the Churche be inuisible the w c semeth that so it must be concluded seing y t God onelie may know his elect and predestinate also that we say y t we beleue the holie Churche and that whiche is beleued is not sene But hereof there followeth a greate inconuinient if simply and barely we speak so of it For if it be so vnto what company may a man ioyn him self what meanes shall we vse to haue saluation if we knowe not y e Churche whereunto we may ioyn oure selfes considering that vpon the Churche onely Iesus Christe powreth oute his vertue and force to saue mankinde Trew it is my Lorde Cardinall if I remembre well that ye alledged yet an other inconuenient whereof we be not satisfied to wit that if the Churche were inuisible that then we should not somuche as knowe oure King y t whiche thing we could not vnderstand For the Scripture teacheth vs to know oure superiours and to obey them in all thinges sauing y e honnor that we owe vnto God onely yea althogh they be infideles in dede But let this be spoken as by the way I returne to my purpose We say therefore y t althogh the true Churche be inuisible in respect of that that we haue said neuertheles when there is question vnto what company we oght to associat ioyn oure selues we haue certen markes to wit the pure word of God and the sincere administration of his Sacramentes the whiche markes be euident and perceiuable in suche sorte y t where they be we oght not to doubt that there is the true Churche of God And we must according to the ruell of charitie holde all for faithfull that make profession of y e pure religion except that God discouer theire dissimulation feynednes And of this saint Paule giueth vs a good example where he calleth the Corinthiens Galathiens saintes and faithfull and doeth attribute vnto them y e name of the Churche althogh there was amongest them greate fautes aswell in the ignorance of doctrine as in theire liuing This is it whiche also he haeth declared in an other place that all they w c kepe y e foundation buyld not alwayes thereon gold siluer or precious stones but also hay chaffe Se now how we speake of the Churche without making thereof an imagined a fantasticall thing and without giuing occasion as I suppose to compt vs among y e nombre of suche frensiâ—k persons as heretofore were the CatharieÌ„s Donatistes and as again now in oure tyme be these furious Anabaptistes against whom this mater haeth so often bene debated by them that are of oure part I come nowe vnto the marckes witnessinges of the Churche the whiche is very nedefull to be marcked and marcked again seing that withoute the same there is no saluation and that there is no thing y t Satan oure ancient enemye more enforceth him self to dissaguyse I haue said that it haeth two certen infallible marckes that is to say the preaching of the worde of God and the sincere administration of the Sacramentes Some ioyne thereunto the discipline of the Churche and y e frutes of the preaching of the Euangile as of a trueth it behoueth that euery assemblie for to maintene them selues haue a policie vnder some superiour whom they must obey But forsomuche as our sinnes be often tymes the cause that thies two pointes in no wyse appere vnto men therefore we will content oure selues with the two first As touching the worde that it is a sure marcke of the Churche it appereth by this that the same worde is coÌ„pared vnto a sede bothe by Iesus Christ by saint Peter By reason whereof also saint Paule haeth said y t he haeth begotten the Corinthiens in y e Lorde to wit by the preaching of
y e worde And for this cause in so many places is it named food nooriture according to that whiche y e Lorde haeth said y t his shepe will heare his voyce not the voyce of a stranger I adde the Sacramentes for asmuche as the Lorde haeth not willed vs not onely to be taught by oure eares but also by oure eyes and other senses of oure bodyes therefore haeth he willed that the Sacramentes shoulde be sure visible witnesses and sealles of the vnion or knitting together of his children first with him self and then after amongest them selues Ye may see now why it was said in the olde lawe y t the vncyrcumcised shoulde be destroyed from among the people of God And for this cause also it behoued that all the heades of euery familly shoulde compere thre tymes a yere at least in Ierusalem for to witnesse by the same sacrifices their vnitie of faith and religion And afterwardes when the wall betwene the two was broken the Gentiles and the Israelites were broght into one bodye not onely by the preaching but also by Baptisme and by the holy Sacrament of the body blood of oure Lorde according to that whiche Iesus Christe said vnto his Apostles Go and teache all nations baptising them in the Name of the Father the Sonne and of the holy Spirit whereunto we must ioyn that whiche Saint Paule sayeth that he hath giuen touching the Supper y t whiche he had receyued of the Lorde This is also that whiche in an other place he sayeth that the Churche is founded vpon the foundation of the Prophetes Apostles that is to say vpon Iesus Christe whiche is the substance of the doctrine of the Prophetes Apostles Lykewyse must we vnderstaÌ„d an other place of the same Apostle wherein he sayeth y t the Churche is the prop piller of the veritie that is to say that y e worde of God whiche is the veritie as it is written in S. Iohn susteyneth vpholdeth the Churche or els is placed in the Churche as in a sure hie place forasmuche as iÌ„ it God sheweth his puissance vnto saluation to all beleuers as S. Paule declareth vnto the Romains in the first chaptre Beholde therefore the right and visible marckes of the Churche whiche is called for this cause the mother of the faithfull begotten noorished in the same with the true and incorruptible foode Now if there be preaching of y e worde and administration of the Sacramentes it must of force be concluded that there be pastors and doctors vnto whome this charge must be coÌ„mitted according to that whiche the Scripture thereof witnesseth euery where namelie in y t w c is writteÌ„ vnto the CorinthieÌ„s to y e Ephesiens Therefore may ye se why y e some putt to y e thirde marcke that is to say y e ordinarie succession from y e tyme of the Apostles wherevnto we answer y t suche a succession is greatly to be praised prouided alwayes that it be well considered applied as some haue often tymes therewith strengthened them selues against the newnes of heretikes as appereth in Tertullian Irenee S. Augustine against the Manicheens and Donatistes But forasmuche as there is a buckler hereof made against vs as if we were inuenters of new thinges or that we pretended thereby to haue help it is more then nedefull that it should be knowen what estimation we haue of this succession we say that there is a succession of doctrine and a succession of persons As touching the succession of doctrin we auowe it as an infallible marcke of the true Churche according to y e whiche we haue already spoken For notwithstanding that the doctrine af the Euangile is more then credible without hauing authoritie of ancientie that it commeth often to passe through oure iniquities and by the iust vengeance of God that it is as new vnto men as that it oght to be vnto them familiare and accustumed yet this notwithstanding the witnes of an ancient and continuall succession serueth much vnto men to make them the more inexcusable And as touching the succession of persones we auowe it also but vnder condition and prouided that it be conioyned with the succession of the doctrine of the Prophetes and Apostles at the least in the pointes of the substance and grounde thereof and none otherwyse And marck if it please you my Lordes that I speake notablie of y e doctrine and not of maners for althogh it be requesit for a good and true pastor to be perfyte in doctrine and in lyuing yet because of ignorance or for some diuersitie of opinions of the doctrine whiche be not of the substance ground thereof also for his manners we will not stik to suffer him being a pastor to be still a pastor prouided alwayes y t he kepe the foundation of the doctrine we be taught thus to speake by the wordes of oure Lord Iesus Christe y t whiche saied forasmuche as y e Scribes and Pharisies were set in Moisis chair y t it behoued to doo as they taught and not that whiche they did The whiche place S. Augustine writing on S. Iohn in his 46 treatise declareth that it oght to be vnderstand of hyrelingis whiche faill not to haue this doctrine not of fals Prophetes of whom Christe haeth contrarywyse spoken Be ye ware of the leuain of the Pharisies Being saith S. Augustine set in y e Chair of Moises they teache the law of God and therefore God teacheth by them But if they wil teache their owne doctrines nether heare ye them nor do ye those thinges that they speake The whiche thing y e same authoure expoundeth yet more at large in his 49 Sermon De verbis domini So therefore my Lordes to retourne again to the point because thaâ— the fals Prophetes may succede vnto the trow and wâ—â—es vnto the ryght shepherdes behold a 〈◊〉 peremptorie for the w c we esteme a personall succession nor onely to be receiued but altogether to be coÌ„demned as giuing occassion â—nto falset except that the succession of the doctrine be ioyned thereunto for the foundation Furthermore if this personall succession were simply holden for an infallible marcke of the Churche it behoued then to shew vs some promise of God by w c he haeth 〈◊〉 and bound his grace vnto certen seates or regions y t whiche thing we suppose can not be found in the new Testament But ryght well know we that there is alwayes a Catholicke Churche that is an vniuersall Churche â—orasmuche as the particuler membres thereof be scattered here there throughout the hole worlde according as it pleaseth God to exercise his iudgementes vpon some of them that he haeth ether altogether cut of or els that he haeth chastened for a tyme and his mercies vpon other some of them y t he
beawtie where there shall be neyther spot nor wrinckle it knoweth God but it is in a parte When I speake thus I beleue y t ye know the Apostles owne wordes For to be brief I confesse that without y e Churche there is no saluatioÌ„ because there is no lyfe but in Iesus Christe Iesus Christe imployeth not his liuelie vertue no where els but amongest his membres the vnion and assemblie whereof is called the Churche But the question is to know whether that in this world the Churche may erre and whether it be aboue the Scripture or els altogether subiect vnto the same Hereunto do I answer that it is a thing without all doubte that the particuler membres of the Churche may erre and do erre daylie bothe in doctrine and maners according vnto that whiche S. Paule sayeth that we knowe in a parte and S. Iohn that if we say y t we haue no sinne we deceiue oure selues But if any body will except out of this nombre the ancient doctors he shall perdonne vs if we beleue him not For it were easie for vs to gather many witnesses of fautes y t be fouÌ„d in the greatest and moste ancient of them let this be spoken sauing the reuerence due vnto their godlines and learning But we will not stay oure selues so muche here for the honnor that we heare vnto them and y t not without good cause as also because if I haue well vnderstand the sayeng of my Lorde Cardinall that he is no more of that mynde then we to deceiue them without exception This is it that we vnderstand of the membres of the Churche in particularitie the imperfection whereof doeth not stoppe but y t the Churche is formed and made thereof For by litle and litle do they go forwarde aswell in the knowledge of God as in the amendment of life But if the membres of the Churche be generally considered as it is destributed in diuers diocess and prouinces shall we say that it may â—rre Again if I remembre well my Lorde Cardinall was lately of that 〈…〉 specially the particuler Churches prouinciall Councelles may erre and haue often erred and surely that is ratified by so long an experience that no man of iudgemeÌ„t as I suppose can doubte thereof There resteth therefore to coÌ„sider the hole Churche in an vniuersalitie but in what sorte For coÌ„sidering it in the estimation of an vniuersall Councell first of all there is no greate apperance to iudge that all the vertue that the holy Goste employeth vpon y e Churche is restreyned to an certen nombre of Prelats the whiche be not alweys y e most learned nor y e best yea althogh they represent the hole multitude that seÌ„deth them For how often tymes will it come to passe that a simple man shall haue more vnderstanding at an instant then the moste wyse of an hole company And therefore was it said by Gerson y t more credit oght to be giuen to one priuate faithfull man then to an hole CouÌ„cell and to the Pope if he haue better authoritie or reason And namely in y e great Councell of Nece by whome was it stopped that the law of single lyfe whiche afterwarde haeth broght so great filthynes into the Churche was not then established By one Paphnutius onely as sayeth the historie And moreouer wheÌ„ was there euer assembled a Councell so generall but that a greate parte not onely of the moste wyse and moste holie men but also of the Prelates haue remayned be hinde And who may than assure but that they that were absent some tymes had greater reuelation then they that were present And besydes all this my Lordes how long is it a go that there reigned so horrible a coÌ„fusioÌ„ in y e Churche and principally in the great estates dignities of Prelates in such sorte that the greatest desolation of the house of God is in that parte where it oght to be moste entier and best decked At the least it is a long tyme past that the exemples hereof haue appered that y e good Busshops haue sobbed sighed so grieuously therefore so euidently that we heare them at this day And that whiche S. Barnard wryteth of this mater in his book of consideration and in the 33 sermon on the Canticles and also in the sermon of the conuersion of S. Paule is noles notoriouse theÌ„ true Allas Lorde sayeth he they whche be sene to loue the first and chief places iÌ„ thy Churche and their to haue y e superioritie be first in a redynes to persecute thee They haue takeâ— the Ark of Sion they haue vioâ—lently possessed the Castell and by power haue set fyre on thâ— hole Citie Let this be spoken mâ— Lordes not to iniurie any body biâ— to shew that the chief vocations iâ— the Churche being of so long a tymâ— so confused and misreuled that it iâ— impossible to conclude in any wysâ— that the vniuersall Councelles thaâ— haue bene now of a long tyme gaâ—thered together of a multitude so eâ—â— qualified haue bene so guyded by 〈◊〉 holy Spirit that they coulde noâ— erre An ancient Priest of whome I wolde make no mention in this coÌ„pany if it were not that they alledgâ— his example in this mater did prophesie well althogh he was no thing worth But we reade none otherwyse but he erred yea both y t he his company in condemning Iesus Christ for it was the holy Goste y t propheseid in this behalf and not he whiche knew not what he said nor what he spoke being moued w t a Spirit very contrarious that is to say a deuilish Spirit because of malice he concluded to sic a Iesus Christe the Sonne of God And further if a generall Councell haeth receiued this priuiledge that they can not erre in y e rewle of their doctrine nor in y e forme of their maners we demand what tyme was this priuiledge dated For there was neuer but one God one Faith and one Churche Now that there was error in the Churche in the tyme of the olde TestameÌ„t the Prophetes openlye beare witnes and y e histories shew good proof thereof All y e wache men sayeth Esay 56 â–ª chaptre be blind they know no thing they are all domme dogges â–ª And Ierem 6 chaptre Frome the Prophet to the priest they work all vntrueth And to the inteÌ„t y t this might not be restreyned vnto the life of particuler persons it is said in the 14 chaptre of the same Prophet they prophesie fals thinges and a lieng vision And in Isay the 29 chaptre The wisdome of the wyse shall perishe the vnderstaÌ„ding of y e prudent shall vanishe away God shall shut vp the eyes of the Prophetes and of y e principalles And in Ezechiell the 7 chaptre The law shall perishe frome the Priest And to say the trueth who condemned y e Prophetes as Ieremias