Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	answer_v	question_n	true_a	3,166	5	4.8631	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77749	Doctor Chamberlain visited with a bunch of his own grapes, gathered out of his own packet of letters: to know whether my answer to his question gave satisfaction, and that by his reply to partake of those rare gifts of the spirit, which he proffered to publish in Black-fryers Church. Also an answer to Dr Chamberlains reply, concerning sprinkling the baptized. / By Thomas Bakewel.	Bakewell, Thomas, b. 1618 or 19.	1650 (1650)	Wing B532; Thomason E601_4; ESTC R206402	21,189	30

Doctor Chamberlain VISITED WITH A Bunch of his own Grapes Gathered out of His own Packet of Letters To know whether my Answer to his Question gave satisfaction and that by his Reply to partake of those rare Gifts of the Spirit which he proffered to publish in Black-fryers Church Also an Answer to Dr Chamberlains Reply concerning Sprinkling the Baptized By THOMAS BAKEWEL DEUT. 32.32 Their vine is of the vine of Sodom and their grapes are grapes of gall their clusters are bitter London Printed for John Dallam and are to be sold at his shop in Black-fryers neer Carter-lane 1650. A Visit to Doctor Chamberlain to make Reply if he be not satisfied that the censure of his Dream fall not on himself to be left hardened in blindnesse SIR SInce I wrote my Answer to your Question concerning Sprinkling the Baptized you have published all your Letters which you sent to Doctor Gouge about it and also a scurrilous Libel full of railing language you have Printed with them This railing Rabshakeh saith That this reverend Minister of Jesus Christ knows not of what spirit he is and that he hath not the Spirit of Christ nor of a private Christian he is none of Christs Minister but a Worldling he is dumb and dare not speak he is not fit to have the charge of Souls he is devilish minded and ought to be cast out or healed Christ will not have such spirits to be Ministers of his Kingdome He is more for the world and his own ease then for Christ and your good He chuseth to keep his people in darkness lest a stronger then he should come in and dispossesse him by bringing in the glorious Light of the Gospel Thus terming our Ministers to evil spirits and himself and his Faction to Jesus Christ who only is able to cast them out and to take possession of the Soul being the Redeemer of it But what is the offence given by Doctor Gouge for this man thus to rail on him Answ Nothing but this Christ saith he answered all question and so should he But Sir why did not you come to him for an Answer How can you endure to hear this man to rail thus before you have tryed the Doctors faithfulnesse when he so lovingly invited you to come unto him and if you pleased to bring a Friend with you But your motion was rather for his Pulpit then for his Answer more for division then for satisfaction rather presuming to teach the Doctor then to be taught by him Now Christ would not answer those that came to cavil at his Doctrine Joh. 18.19 20. nor those that questioned his Authority Mat. 21.27 nor his accusers before Pilate Mat. 27 12 14. Also his Ministers are forbidden to cast pearls before swine or to give holy things to dogs Mat. 7.6 or to reprove scorners Prov. 8.7 8. But this railer goes on not onely against him but against all other Ministers that are faithful to Jesus Christ saying They are all his fellow spirits they are all agreed and they must all be cast out and enter in no more but into a swinish generation who dig their way to Hell with whom they shall run violently headlong to the deep Therefore saith he they are deaf to hear the Word of God and dumb to speak the truth thereof though upon it they will speak till they foam againe But saith he see that they do not deceive you for they are evil spirits seeking to devour you And so he concludes saying Receive this as from Christ Now whom this Railer is I know not yet some think him to be one Evins that was in Newgate for professing himself to be Jesus Christ and not unlikely for saith he Receive this as from Christ And also that stronger man who alone is able to call out evil spirits he applies to himself or some of his Faction But then he seems to recant of all the evil that he hath spoken against the Doctor saying Not that I hate him for I have many Reasons to love him in truth But I say if all were true here spoken by this Railer what Reasons can he have to love him in truth or if false what a horrible wretch is he thus to reproach him But God hath made his own Conscience to check his railing tongue confessing to have Reasons to love him in truth and yet they must not be made known Now I shall shew that you are led by the same spirit for these Reasons First You say That this Raler is a Messenger come from Christ and that no man can deny it which shews that the same spirit rules in both Secondly This Railer saith to you Set these things in order and send them to Black fryers and this also you have done although with some difficulty because as you say of the illiteratenesse of his composure which he left for you to perfect which shews that you are led by the same spirit Thirdly This Railer saith to you Write and print and send them and this also you have done Fourthly This Railer saith to you See that you use not my name and accordingly you have concealed it although it is very likely you know it Fifthly He rails upon this reverend Minister notwithstanding be hath many Reasons to love him in truth so you argue the Doctors friendship his age his learning his exemplary retiredness and strictness of living yea and expresly you say that you love him and yet one Dream suggested by the Devil will make you to leave him as you say hardned in blindnesse which comprehends all that the Railer hath spoken Sixthly You have given such way to this foul spirit as to defuse what he hath suggested for the Doctor answered to your question concerning Sprinkling the Baptized that you might come to him and also bring a Friend with you if you pleased But to the other question whether it should be disputed in his Church he would be better advised and well he might for what Shepherd would suffer the Wolf to dispute among the Sheep But you like a false witnesse apply his Answer to the wrong question and from that false ground take an occasion to insult over him and dare him to take advice with several Divines and also with the whole Synod and make it as pulique as he would Thus you have published your pride and vanity with lesse discretion then your approved Friend this railing Libeller who is sensible that his name is contemptible among the people Sir Having no Reply to my Answer I shall make bold to speak unto you in your own words and language expressed in your Letters thus Was your question to Doctor Gouge a matter of Salvation or was it not If not why did you so often reiterate your Letters with such vehemency for an Answer and that he would deal clearly in this businesse as he valued the Souls of men On the other side If it was a matter of Salvation why did you not come to him when

he so lovingly envited you to come and if you pleased to bring a Friend with you also Again either you were ignorant of that point or not If not why did you propound that question Is it not your own inference to say He that asketh advice is ignorant of the thing he asketh advice in So that if you were not blinde you would not ask whether it be day Do not you also say That all doubts are for want of Faith or Knowledg Or did you onely propound this to try the Doctor whether he was willing to give you an Answer and the mean time you remain unwilling to come unto him for it Will not this be a greater shame to you then if you had never propounded that question to him who formerly was your Shepherd Sir The Railing Libeller whom you say comes in the name of Christ saith That this is a profound question and most necessary to be cleared and put forth by one who seeth the Ax layd to the root of Religion and the Watchmen asleep at this time of distresse and distraction amongst the flock of Christ some denying this Fundamental Ordinance to be of any effect and others deny it to Infants as lawful and others deny sprinkling to be of God Now a full Answer saith he to this question will clear all and heal all doubts and distractions Therefore remember your Charge he hath shewed that you have set your hand to the Plough and if you look back he saith You are unfit for the Kingdom of God Sir I long to see those excellent vertues and operations of the Spirit which you boast to have received since you turn'd Anabaptist Let not those transcendent gifts be put under a Bushel but set those New-Lights on a Candlestick to give Light to all that are in the House Sir You promised and proffered to shew those gifts to Doctor Gouge to teach him knowledg let me request the same favor also I hope you will be no respecter of persons in the things of God I have waited long for your Answer therefore rather teach Babes then Doctors rather Sheep then Shepherds Now if you should claim the Popes title to be a Shepherd of Shepherds to teach the Shepherd and not the Sheep I should much doubt that those admirable gifts are but the depths of Satan as they speak Rev. 2 24. whereby he frequently deludes Anabaptists Sir You say that you wrote to the late King and I see that you have written to a Doctor of Divinity But I hope you do not think it to be a disparagement to write to them of meaner quality Is your matter so excellent that no other men may partake of it Suppose you were a King or a Doctor not cast out of the Colledge I hope sometimes other men may hear some of your admirable matters which onely becomes Kings and Doctors to hear Sir I hope your transcendent gifts are not of that quality to perish in the using If they be divine gifts they will increase by using Now if yours be such what hurt is it to impart with them for advantage If you keep your Talent in a napkin you will offend the Lord who gave it to be improved for the good of your self others but it seems you know this already and have told your loving Neighbors of Black-fryers how that you being converted ought in duty to strengthen your Brethren Now I hope you will not make such construction of the word Brethren as to shut me out of that Brotherhood Sir the Messenger of Christ as you call that railing Libeller I hope hath made a better construction of your Dream then to leave me also with Doctor Gouge hardened in blindnesse therefore let me hear from you whether my Answer gave satisfaction or not and if it did give God the praise and if it did not I desire to know wherein it was wanting because I desire to have more charity of you then to leave you hardened in blindnesse BY Thomas Bakewel An ANSWER to Doctor Chamberlains Reply concerning Sprinkling of the Baptized UPon the 24. of March I sent my first P●per to Doctor Chamberlain that now is published and he that received it promised an Answer in two days and now upon the seventh of April his Reply came to me so stufft with Sophistry and falsity that it is enough to terrifie a gracious heart even in he Repetition of it His first page is a bundle of falsities He saith That he sent four times to my house to return me an Answer and that I either was not or would not be at home These are all false he sent but twice The first time I was at Church the second time the Messenger spake with me not to return me an Answer but to ask me these questions Why did you not come to hear your Letter read and why did you not come to justifie it and did you write it your self or did some other help you Then he saith That I call the seventh of April being the Lords day Palmsunday which he never heard me and the Sabbath which it seems he will not and that I tell my friends that I have defied Israel and that I should say none durst answer me which are both false And that I should say He promised to answer which also is false although there was a promise made by another that it should be done Then he saith He had no copy of what I printed when as there was a whole quire sent him besides the manuscript that I sent him yet he saith He had not known of it had not another given him one But to what purpose are all those falsities if he were not given over to the Father of lyes They concern not the point in Controversie But Mr Doctor are these the gifts of the Spirit you boast so much of to have shewed publiquely in Doctor Gouges Church It is true they are the gifts of those lying spirits in the mouths of Ahabs Prophets 2 Chron. 18 21. But Sir Be ware of the lyers portion Revel 21.8 Then you say That I am the Cats paw dabling in Greek I suppose you speak comparatively which having no resemblance shews your weakness of learning for a Cat to dabble in Greek cannot and in water will not or at least as seldom as you dabble in the truth but I must leave dabling Then you trouble your self that Mr Downame should give me his Imprimatur and that our Ministers should suffer a Layman to take upon him their Function How now Mr Doctor what do you reprove another and do the same things Thou that sayst another should not steal dost thou steal Thou that judgest another condemnest thy self for doing the same things See Rom. 2.1 21. But yet Mr Doctor I do not take upon me the Ministers Function Was I ever the mouth of God to the Congregation by preaching unto them or their mouth unto God by prayer or did I ever administer the Sacraments to the people If not

these are falsly spoken of me although your selfe and other Lay-men amongst Anabaptists frequently do them But cavilling Anabaptists have alwayes something to say against those that are truly orthodox If our learned Ministers write any Tract then they say they have nothing but Humane Learning they have not the Spirit and if any illiterate man shall write against them then he wants Learning but if for them then say you in your first Letter God gives poor Fishermen the Spirit which he doth not to learned Clarks Then you would make the world beleeve that you are of a very humble spirit and you deserve not the title of Tyrus But Pride breakes out and spoiles all saying that which you falsely charged me withall That our Ministers durst not answer you there was none so bold yet still you would have me bear the name and keep the vice your selfe saying I presume to answer for Doctor Gouge supposing my selfe the abler man which will not follow although it may be more willing because it is like he knows the temper of your spirit better then I. Then you say that I except against you for asking Dr Gouge a question because he is ancient when as multitude of years should teach wisdom Iob 32.7 and of whom should we enquire but of them that take upon them the Office should not the Priests lips keep Knowledg Mal. 2.7 But here like Corah you say he takes the Office upon him but beware of Corahs Judgment See Numb 16.3.35.40 You charge him but condemne your selfe doing the same thing But why did not you come to learn at his mouth which is your duty from that Text Mal. 2.7 Neither do I except against asking the Doctor a question because he is ancient but because you more required his Pulpit then his Answer to make division rather then to seeke for satisfaction Neither is it fit I say that ancient Ministers should be dayly troubled with all the vain queries that Anabaptists may put unto them But then you are troubled that I should not give you leave to state your own question which was so stated that the answering of it as it was would start up more questions which would be endlesse Therefore it was my desire to confine the question onely to Sprinkling the Baptized and leave Infants for another question at this you cavil asking Whether they must first be baptized and then sprinkled which shews of what spirit you are as if I should say Such a man hath married a wife for which you should accuse me for saying he marryed her that was a wife at that time to another man Then you say That Doctor Gouge doth acknowledge That Sprinkling and Baptizing Infants is but a Tradition of the Church I question the truth of it But I say they are such Traditions of the Church as that they are not mans Inventions nor by man to be abolished Then you come to my first Argument in these words The Lord foretold that in the times of the Gospel his People should be sprinkled with clean water Ezek. 36.25 To this you propound many queries thus Whether Sprinkling here be meant Baptisme or by cleane water the elementary water and you bee meant Infants and the time then be meant the time of the Gospel with the Gentiles or the time of the glorious Calling of the Jews or whether Sprinkling doe not allude to that Sprinkling under the Law they not knowing Johns nor Christs Baptism and whether pure water be not meant the Holy Ghost in the language of Christ To this I answer Let them be Iewes or Gentiles in respect of Country bond or free male or female Infants or of full age all in the Christian Church have right to Baptisme Neither can this Text look back to the Jewish Sprinklings under the Law because it is a Prophecy or Promise to come hereafter neither can this be meant of the Essence of the Holy Ghost to be sprinkled which is uncommunicable and for the graces or operations of the Holy Ghost promised to be bestowed in the latter dayes they are no where promised to be by sprinkling a few drops But saith the Lord it shall come to passe that I will poure out my Spirit Ioel 2.28 I will poure water upon him that is thirsty and floods upon the dry ground I will poure my Spirit upon thy seed and my blessing upon thy off-spring Isa 44.3 Now see the Apostles Exposition of these Texts It shall come to pass saith God that I will pour out my spirit Act. 2.17 And saith Christ himself Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water but this spake he of the Spirit Ioh. 7.38 39. Neither is it likely that the Promise of Grace in the fulnesse of Christs Kingdome should be no more but a few drops sprinkled which they had when these Promises were made so that it remaines that this Sprinkling here fore-told to be with clean water is the Elementary water sprinkled upon the Baptized as the outward form which may signifie all that abundance of grace promised to be then bestowed upon the Christian Church And Mr Doctor these things I am confident shall be accomplished although you taxe me with Lay-ignorance and to be talketive and you beleeve that these mistakes will make them to keep the staff in their own hands and not to suffer such though never so zealous and devout to betray their cause To this I know not whom you mean but God forbid that for any private cause any Power on Earth should suppresse the Truth although they have the staff of power in their hand But then you conclude All that can be said upon this place is onely a Promise what God will do and not a Command what man must do Ans It may be the outward form of Baptism by sprinkling of water for all that for God may do it by Instruments The Pharisees heard that Jesus made and baptized more Disciples then Iohn though Jesus himself baptized not but his Disciples Ioh. 4.1 2. And they came to Iohn saying He that was with thee beyond Iordan baptizeth Ioh. 3.26 but not himself But admit it was Christ himself that baptizeth yet it is with the Holy Ghost when Iohn baptizeth with water Mat. 3.11 Thus Christ makes the outward Forme by Sprinkling effectual by sanctifying and cleansing his Church with the washing of water by the Word Eph. 5.26 And thus Christ when he washed his Disciples feet washed and cleansed their Souls from sin or else they had had no part with him Ioh. 13.8 and yet not without that outward Form But then you are troubled that I should say That water in the Sacrament signifies the Blood of Christ saying Where doth the Scripture say so But I say if you take away the thing signified from the Element you destroy the Sacrament much like the Papist who will have the Element of Bread turned into the very Body of Christ But in so doing you spoile the Ordinance as well by plunging