this that the church may ordaine certaine thyngs according to the word of God. But if this epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the boke of Common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as I can not vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniurie whych go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them which we can neither heare nor see being kept close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouerty and nakednes of it being faine to ransake rifie vp euery darke corner to finde some thing to couer it with Therefore it were good before you toke any benefite of them to let thē come forth and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and ful out For now you geue men occasion to thinke that there are some other things in their Epistles whych you would be lothe the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is no man that fayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the church where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no mā seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hath left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other thyngs to vse that whych shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the church and constrined by the Prince And whereas you haue euer hitherto geuen the ordering of these thyngs to the churche howe come you nowe to ascribe it to the Bishops you meane I am sure the Bishops as we call Bishops heere in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the papists vnwares which when they haue spoken many things of the churche magnifically at the last they bring it nowe to the Doctors of the church nowe to byshops As forme although I doute not but there be many good men of the Byshoppes and very learned also and therfore very meete to be admitted into that consultation wherin it shal be cōsidered what things are good in the church yet in respect of that office and calling of a bishop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister pastor of the churche hath more interest and right in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any bishop or archbishop in the realme for as muche as he hath an ordinarie calling of God function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how thys authoritie pertaining to the whole church of making of such orders may and ought to be called to a certaine number that confusion may be auoyded and wyth the consent also of the churches to auoyde tyrannie it shall appeare in a more proper place where we shall haue occasion to speake of the eldership or gouernment in euery churche and of the communion and societie or participation and entercommuning of the churches togither by councels and assemblies prouinciall or nationall Answere till the Admonition from the beginning of the 30. page VNto the places of Deuteronomic whych proue that nothyng oughte to be done in the churche but that whych God commaundeth and that nothyng should be added nor diminished First you answere that that was a precept geuen to the Iewes for that time whych had all things euen the least prescribed vnto them I see it is true whych is sayd that one absurditie graūted a hundred follow For to make good that things ought to be done besides the scripture and worde of God you are driuen to runne into parte of the error of the Manichees whych say that the olde Testament pertaineth not vnto vs nor bindeth not vs For what is it else then to say that these two places serued for the Iewes time and vnder the lawe For surely if these two places agree not vnto vs in time of the gospell I knowe none in all the olde Testament whych doe agree and I praye you what is heere sayde whych S. Iohn in the * Apocalipse saythe not where he shutteth vp the newe Testament in thys sorte I protest vnto euery mā whych heareth the prophecie of thys boke that whosoeuer addeth any thing to it the Lorde shall adde vnto him the plagues whych are wrytten in it and whosoeuer taketh away any thing from it the Lord shall take away his portion out of the boke of life and out of the things that are wrytten in it which admonition if you say pertaineth to that boke of the Apocalipse only yet you must remember that the same may be as truely sayd of any other boke of the scripture Then you are driuen to saye that the Iewes vnder the lawe had a more certaine direction and consequently a readyer waye then we haue in the time of the gospell of the whych time the Prophet sayeth that then a man shoulde not teache his neighbor they shal be so taught of God as if he should say that they that liue vnder the gospel should be all in comparison of that whych were vnder the lawe Doctors And Esay sayth that in the dayes of the gospell the people shall not stande in the outward courtes but he will bring them into the sanctuarie that is to say that they shoulde be all for their knowledge as learned as the Leuites and Priestes whych only had entraunce into it Now if the Iewes had precepts of euery the least action whych told them precisely how they should walke how is not their case in that poynt better then oures whych because we haue in many things but generall rules are to seeke oftentimes what is the will of God whych we should follow But let vs examine their lawes and compare them with oures in the matters pertaining to the church for whereas the question is of the gouernment of the church it is very impertinent that you speake of the iudicialies as though you had not yet learned to distinguishe betweene the Church and common wealth To the ordering and gouerning of the church they had only the moral and ceremoniall law we haue the same morall that they had what speciall direction therfore they enioy by the benefite of that we haue We haue no ceremonies but two the ceremonies or sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper we haue as certaine a direction to celebrate them as they had to celebrate their ceremonies and fewer and les difficulties can rise of oures then of theirs and we haue more plaine and expres doctrine to decide our cōtrouersies then they had for theirs What houre had they for their ordinarie and daily sacrifices was it not left to the order of the church what places were apointed in their seuerall dwellings to heare the woorde of God preached continually when they came not to Ierusalem the word was commaunded to be preached but no mention made what
that nothing in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done ought to driue that church from that election to an other whych is conuenient Nowe I will examine the reasons which you adde to proue that although in times past the church chused their ministers yet nowe it must be otherwise To the fyrst difference in the. 44. page YOu say it was in the Apostles times vnder the crosse and therfore few and so might easely knowe one an other who were fitte for the ministerie But you forget your selfe maruellously For in the Apostles times the churche I meane visible and sensible for else how could it be persecuted was sowne not only through out all Asia whych is the greatest part of the world but through a great part of Affrica and no small portion of Europe and nowe it is shut in a small corner of Europe being altogither banished out of Asia and Affrica And therfore there are not the tithe nowe of those that professed the gospell then and what a conclusion is thys the churches were few in numbre because they were vnder the crosse For to let passe bothe other scriptures and stories ecclesiastical haue you forgotten that whych is sayd in Exodus that the more the children of Israell were pressed and persecuted the more they multiplied Thē you say they kepte togither and mette often and so knowing one another were best able to iudge one of an other But heerein you speake as one that hathe small experience of persecuted churches for in the time of persecution the christians that were in one great citie were faine to gather them selues oute of all the corners and from all the endes of the Citie to one place being not able to deuide them selues into many parishes bothe for other considerations and because they were not able to maintaine many ministers and elders and Deacons wherby it may be vnderstande that by all likelyhode in one great citye they had but one congregation and therfore that must needes be scattered heere and there and so could not haue the commoditye eyther of often meeting or of knowing one an other so well as where suche a citie is deuided into many churches Those that knowe the estate of Fraunce in the time of persecution do well vnderstand that euery church almost was gathered of townes whereof some were sixe miles some seuen some more from the place of meeting and keeping their congregations And therefore coulde not meete so often nor knowe one an other so well as we by the grace of God may do whych meete oftner and in les number then they doe To the second difference To your seconde difference I answere that in deede there be hipocrites in our churches now and so were there then but moe nowe than then I graunte you that also but there is no great daunger in them as touching the election of the minister or byshop for that in suche open and publike actions that come into the eyes of all men there is no good man will doe so holily as they will doe although it be fainedly The hurt that they do is in closer and secreater matters But where you say oure churches are full of drunkardes and whoremongers besides that you vtter or euer you be aware howe euill succes the preaching of the gospell hath had heere for want of discipline and good ecclesiasticall gouernment you bewray a great ignoraunce For although there be hipocrites whych beare the face of godly men in the churche whose wickednes is onlye knowne to God and therfore can not be discouered by men yet in the churches of Christe there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers at least whych are knowne For either vpon admonition of the churche they repent and so are neyther drunkardes nor whoremongers or else they are cutte of by excommunication if they continue stubborne in their sinnes and so are none of the churche and therefore haue nothing to do in the election of the minister of the church And me thincketh you shuld not haue ben ignorāt of this that although there be * tares in the floure of the church whych are like the wheat therfore being groūd easely mete togither in the lofe yet there are no acornes whych are bread for swine And although there be * goates amongst the flocke of the churche because they haue some likelyhode wyth the sheepe feeding as they doe geuing milke as they doe yet in the church of Christe there are no swine nor hogges It pertaineth to God only to seuere the tares from the wheate and the goates from the sheepe but the churches can discerne betweene wheat and acornes betweene swine and sheepe To the thirde in the. 44. page If they had knowledge then it was because they were taughte and that they are ignorant nowe it is because they haue no good ministers to teach them and if the churches should chuse their ministers I am sure they coulde not chuse worse then for the moste parte they haue nowe being thrust vpon them To the fourth in 45. page I see that when a man is out of hys way the further he goeth the worse Before you placed in the church whoremongers and drunkards as filthy swine in the Lordes courtes nowe you bring in Papistes and Idolaters and Atheistes whych are not only filthy but also poysoned and venoumed beastes I am not ignorant of that distinction whych sayth that there be in the churche whych are not of the church and those are hypocrites as is before sayd but I woulde gladly learne of you what scripture there is to proue that Idolaters and Papistes and Atheistes are in the church when S. Paule calleth all suche wythout the churche and wyth whome the churche had nothing to doe nor they with the church You might as well haue placed in the church Wolues Tigres Lions and Beares that is Tirantes and persecutors For those ye speake of are in the iudgement of men and of the church as well shut out of it as they in the eye of the Lord they may in time be of the church and so may and are sometimes the persecutors themselues so it appeareth that the election of the church is not nor ought not to be hindered by those that haue nothing to do with it But now I heare you aske me what then shal become of the Papists and Atheists if you will not haue them be of the church I answer that they may be of in the common wealth whych neither may nor can be of nor in the churche And therfore the churche hauing nothing to doe wyth suche the magistrate ought to see that they ioyne to heare the sermons in the place where they are made whether it be in those parishes where there is a church and so preaching or where else he shall thinke best and cause them to be examined howe they profite and if they profite not to punishe them as their contempt groweth so to encrease the punishmēt vntill suche times as
we shall hold out of the church the vnwrytten verities of the papists for my part if it be true that you say I can not tell what to answer vnto them For our answere is to thē the apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the church wrytten and therfore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet because they are superfluous and more then neede Now this degree of archbishop being not only not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is too bold and hardy a speache that I say no more to fetch the petegree of the archbyshop from the apostles times and from the apostles them selues But all thys time M. Doctor hath forgotten hys question whych was to proue an archbyshop wheras all these testimonies whych he alledgeth make mētion only of a bishop and therfore thys may rather confirme the state of the byshop in this realme thē the archbyshop But in the answere vnto them it shall appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an archbyshop mentioned so except only the name of a bishop there shal be found very little agreemēt betwene the bishops in those dayes and those whych are called byshops in our time with vs. And consequently although M. doctor thought wyth one whiting boxe to haue whited two wals by establishing our archbyshop and byshop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shal be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieroms reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimony of men that is only to be regarded whych is spoken eyther wyth some authority of the scripture or wyth some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speake wythout eyther scripture or reason he is as easely reiected as alledged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedy vnto schismes how so least euery man sayeth he drawing to him selfe to breake the church in peeces But I would aske if the church be not in as great danger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one caryeth all into error as when one pulleth one peece wyth him another an other peece and the third hys partalso wyth him And it is harder to draw many into an error then one or that many should be caryed away by their affections then one whych is euident in water whych if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but being much it is not so easely But by thys ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the cause of discord and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals them selues And admit it were so yet the peace whych is wythout truth is more execrable thē a thousand contentions For as by striking of two flintes togither there commeth out fire so it may be that sometimes by contention the truth whych is hidden in a darke peace may come to light whych by a peace in naughtines and wickednes being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare If therfore superiority domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men from schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to kepe them togither in error and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted then many thys power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Moreouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnity in the church of England that one archbyshop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall church there should be one archbyshop or byshop ouer all and the like necessity of the byshop ouer all christendome as of the byshop of all England vnles peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall church then ouer the church of England for as much as it is more necessary that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersali church then in the particulare church of England If you say that the archbyshop of England hath hys authority graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas whych was Emperor of all christendome did graunt him hys authority ouer all churches But you will say that it is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therin as you do in diuers poynts here But admit it to be a lie as in dede it is touching Constantine yet I say further that it may come to passe it hath ben that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes whych haue churches What if he then will geue that authority to one ouer all that one king graunteth in hys land may any man accept and take at hys hand such authority and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority tel me what fault you can finde in him whych may not be found in them It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a byshop vnto all the whole church neither is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole church of England For when those which haue ben most excellent in knowledge and wisedome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue found enough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he whych absent is able to discharge hys duety toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as by Archdeacons Chauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what doe you else say then the Pope whych sayeth that by hys Cardinalles and archbyshoppes and Legates and other suche like he doeth all things For wyth their hands he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euerye where and wyth their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therfore least if they haue a common defence wyth the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer wyth hym in the cause then peraduenture they be aware of Truely it is against my will that I am constrained to make suche comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersity betweene the Popedome and the archbyshoppricke but because there being greate resemblance betweene them I meane hauing regarde to the bare functions wythout respecting the doctrine good or badde whych they vpholde that I say there being great resemblance betweene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betweene the parsons that execute them The whych good opinion conceyued of them I we moste humbly beseeche them by the glory of God by the libertye of
common wealth vnto the church 181. Drunkardes whoremongers c. papistes are neither of the church nor in the church 50. M. Doctors Clemens counterfait 88. c. Communion receiued by 2. or 3. the rest of the church departing not to be suffered 147. c. Papistes ought not to bee compelled to receiue the Communion of the Lord nor to be admitted if they offer them selues 167. c. Communicants what they be which must of necessitie be examined 164. c. Wherupon the ministring of the Communion in houses to sicke parsons rose 146. c. Common bread most conuenient for the Communion 164. c. Kneeling at the Communion daungerous and not so agreeable to the action of the supper as sitting 165. c Confirmation of children ought to be taken away 199. D  Deacons ordayning with vs in part examined 39 Deacons were in euery church 190. c. Deacons office is only in prouiding for the poore of the church 190. Deacons office perpetuall 191. Deacons may not preach nor baptise 161. DecoÌ„sh is no ordinary step to the ministery 163 Deanes in times past how much they differed from ours now 96. Disciplyne and gouernment of the church â—â—â— matters of fayth and saluation 26 Discipline standeth in 3. principall partes 183. Dyonisius Areopagita no archb but bish 91. M. doctors Dyonisius a counterfait 188 E  Elders in euery congregation in the Apostles times 173. c Elders necessary in euery churche of the causes of their office 175. c. Elders in euery church alwayes necessary but especially in the time of peace vnder a christen magistrate 178. c. Eldership was kept in the church vnder christian Emperors in the time of peace 182. Eldership fel out of the church through slouthfulnes ambition of the Doctors 182. Election of the ministers ought to bee by the church 44. c Pretended differences to alter the manner of election of the mynisters vsed in the primatiue church answered 49. c Election and ordination differ 58. c Euangelists no ordinary ministers 63. c. Excommunication doth not belong to one maÌ„ but vnto the church and especially to the minister and elders therof 184. c. F  Standing lawes of fasting brought in first by the hereticke Montanus 30. Augustines and Ambroses corrupt iudgement of fasting 30. G  We haue more certaine direction by the gospel in the whole seruice of God then the Iewes had by the lawe 35. c. Greater seuerity ought to be vsed against sins and especially against idolatry vnder the gospel then vnder the law 42. c There ought to be no more standing at the reading of the gospell theÌ„ at the reading of other scriptures 203 Churche Gouernment compounded of all the good formes of gouernment 51. H  The churches authoritye in makyng of Holy dayes 151. c Of the Apostles and saints dayes 152. c. Of homilyes reading in the church 81. 196. c I.  Iames no archbyshop but a byshop by Eusebius iudgement 91. There ought to be no more curtesy at the name of Iesus then at the other names of God. 203. M  Abuses in the celebration of maryage 196. c. Metropolitane byshop what that the name implieth no supertoritye 93. Metropolitanes very pore 108. 94. Ministers lordship one ouer an other eyther in office or name forbidden 22. c In what sorte and howe farre ministers are superiors one ouer another 109. c The cause of want of ministers with vs. 40. c. Ministers reuolting to idolatrye oughte not to be receiued againe to the ministery 40. Ministers may not exercise ciuill offices 206. O  Officials iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Ordination and election differ 58. c. Receiue the holy ghost an vnlawfull speache of the B. in ordaining ministers 62. c. P  Parishes not deuided by Denis the Monke but by the word of God. 69. Prayers not only in matter but also in forme ought to belike the prayers of the scripture 138 Particulare faultes in oure forme of Common prayer 136. c The name of Priest cannot agree vnto the minister of the gospell 198. Prophet no ordinary minister 63. c R  Reading is not preaching 160 Reading preaching the word compared 159 Residence or abiding in one certain place required of al ordinary ecclesiastical ministeries 60 Residence continuall and necessary of the minister in hys church 65. c S  Sacramentes oughte to be ministred after the word is preached 157. Sacramentes vnlawfully ministred in priuate houses 28. 142. c Scripture containing the direction of al things pertaining to the churche and of whatsoeuer things can fall into any part of mans life 26 Scriptures Canonicall ought only to be red in the church 196. c Singing of Psalmes in the church side by side corrupt 203. T  Theodoret a pore Metropolitane 115. Timotheus and Titus by the iudgement of the Scholiaste byshops 91. but in deede Euangelists 65 Aug. iudgement of traditions very corrupt 31 VV  Widowes in the churche to helpe the sicke and impotent in it 191 Women may not minister baptisme and howe this corruption came into the church 143. c Womens churching corrupt 150 ⧠To the Church of England and ALL THOSE THAT LOVE THE TRVETH IN IT T. C. wisheth mercy and peace from God our father and from our Lord Iesus Christ AS our men do more willingly go to warfare and fyght with greater courage agaynst straungers then agaynst theyr countreymen so it is with me in thys spirituall warfare For I would haue wyshed that thys controuersy had bene with the Papystes or with other if any can be more pestylent and professed ennemyes of the church for that should haue bene les griefe to wryte and more conuement to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an ennemy doth kyndle the desire of fyghting and stirreth vp the care of preparing the furniture for the warre So I can not tell how it commeth to passe that the name of a brother staketh that courage and abateth that carefulnes which should be bestowed in desence of the truth But seeing the truth ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lord myght lay it to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so ready as I ought to haue bene to publyshe the truth he myght more iustly condemne me if being oppugned and slaundered by others I should not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habylitie defend it and delyuer it from the euill report that some endeuor to bring vpon it And as vnto other partes of the gospell so sone as the Lord openeth a dore for them to enter in there is for the most part great resistance so in thys part concerning the gouernment and dyscipline of the church which is the order which God hath left as well to make the doctryne
places in the scripture whereof I will recite two or three In the fifthe Chapter of Iosua it is sayde that Iosua made him sharpe kniues for the circumcising of the children of Israell and a little after that Iosua circumcised them Shall we now vppon these wordes conclude that Iosua dyd make the kniues himselfe or was a cutler or being made to hys hande dyd whet them and sharpen them or shall we say that he dyd circumcise the children of Israell in his owne person and hym selfe alone when as that was done by many and by the Leuites to whome that offyce appertayned no but the scripture declareth that Iosua procured sharpe kniues to be made and exhorted and commaunded the people to be circumcised In Exodus it is sayde that Moses dyd appoynt vnto the people Princes Captayne 's ouer thousandes and hundrethes c. And if any conclude thereuppon that hee dyd it him selfe alone hee is by and by confuted by that whiche is wrytten in Deuteronomie where it appeareth that the people dyd chuse them and presented them to Moises What is it then that is sayde in Exodus that Moises appoynted them but that Moyses assembled the people and exhorted them to appoynt rulers and tolde them what manner of men they should be and in a worde sate as it were moderatour in that election To come to the newe Testament In the Actes it is sayde that Paule and Timothe delyuered vnto the churches the orders and decrees of the Apostles and elders and yet it appeareth in another place that the Church had also to doe and gaue their consent vnto the making of those decrees so that the former place meaneth that the Apostles and Elders dyd goe before and were the cheefe and directors of that action The same manner of speach is vsed of the Romane stories wherein it is sayd that the Consull dyd make Magistrates for because that he gathered the assembly and voyces whereby they were made and so S. Luke sayth heere that Paul and Barnabas ordayned because they being the moderators of the Election caused it to be made assembled the churches tolde them of the necessitie of hauing good pastors and gouernors gathered the voices tooke heede that nothing should be done lightly nothing tumultuously or out of order And so to conclude it is an euill reason to say as M. Doctor doth that because S. Luke hath that Paule and Barnabas ordayned therefore the people were excluded And I maruell with what conscience he coulde answere so in thys place especially where it is forthwith added that they ordayned them by the suffrages and voices of the church But you say that the Greeke worde cheirotonein is by the common opinion of almost all Ecclesiasticall writers vsed in the scripture for the solemne maner of ordaining of ministers by the imposition of hands which is the second exception you take to this reason Wherin but that I haue promised to holde my selfe to the matter and that these bolde asseuerances in matters most vntrue are so common that if I should euery fote pursue them I should weary my selfe and all others I coulde not keepe my selfe from running out to maruell at such high speaches voide of truthe First where you say that some translation hath that they ordained ministers wythout making mention of election what haue you gained therby when I can shew mo that translate it otherwise and say it is that they ordained by election or voices or suffrages I had not the commoditye of bookes wherby I coulde see the iudgement of all Ecclesiasticall wryters But of those whych I had I finde that there was but one only M. Gualter of that minde and yet he dothe not shut out the peoples consent in the election Master Caluin M. Beza M. Bullinger M. Musculus M. Brentius he that translated Chrysostome vppon that place Erasmus in his Paraphrases vpon that place are of the contrary iudgement of whose iudgement I would not haue spoken if you woulde not haue gone about thus to abuse youre reader wyth suche manifest vntruthes to ouerthrow the order which God hath established But let all authorities of men go and let vs examine the thing in it self If so be that the holy ghust had ment the solemne putting on of the handes vpon the heades of him that was created elder and minister had he not words enough to vtter this hys meaning would he haue for laying on of hands vsed a word that signifieth lifting vp of hands would he haue vsed a word signifying holding vp for laying downe for when the hands are layd of the head of an other they are layd downe and not holden vp There are words in the olde Testament and in the newe before S. Luke wrote and after he wrote to expres thys ceremony of laying on of hands and yet none haue euer expressed thys S. Paule speaketh thrise of it in his Epistles to Timothe and alwayes he vseth epithesis ton cheiron In the old Testament where thys ceremonie is vsed and spoken of the Septuaginta did neuer translate cheirotonein But as the wryters of the newe Testament epithesis cheiron And what should I stande in thys when as S. Luke him selfe bothe before and after speaking of that ceremony of laying on of hands doth neuer vse this word cheirotonein but the same word whych s Paule vseth and the Septuaginta and although the holy ghost speake properly and wel by whomsoeuer he speaketh yet it could haue ben worst of all sayd by S. Luke of all the Canonicall wryters that he should speake thus vnproperly who of them all wryteth moste purely and elegantly according to the phrase of the moste eloquent Grecians and therfore he borowed this speache of the auncient Greeke wryters whych did vse to expres their elections by thys worde because they were made and voyces geuen by thys Ceremonie of lifting vp of handes But what if S. Luke haue vsed thys worde before and in thys booke in the signification of chusing by voyce dare you then say that he vseth it heere for putting on of hands In the Actes S. Peter sayeth that Christ after hys resurrection appeared not vnto the whole people but vnto those whom he had before chosen by his voyce to be hys witnesses he vseth thys word procecheirotonemenous Nowe if you will say heere that it is to be turned those of whome he layd his handes I will aske you where you read that euer he layd his handes of their heads I will shewe you where he did by hys heauenly voyce appoynt thē And I thinke you are not able to shew in any Greeke author auncient which men do take to be autenticall to teache the propertie or eloquence of the Greeke tongue I meane which were before S. Luke his time where the worde cheirotonein is taken for the laying on of hands of the head of any Thys I confesse that the Greeke Ecclesiasticall wryters haue sometimes vsed it so but you
red that there are now Apostles and Euangelistes and Prophetes You shall assuredly doe maruelles if you proue that as you say you will if any denye it I denye it proue you it And that you may haue some thing to doe more then peraduenture you thoughte of when you wrote these words I will shew you my reasons why I thinke there ought to be none nor can be none vnles they haue wonderfull and extraordinarie callings It must first be vnderstanded that the signification of thys worde Apostle when it is properly taken extendeth it selfe not only to all the ministers of God being sent of God but to the ambassadoure of any Prince or Noble man or that is sent of any publike authoritie and is vsed of the scripture by the trope of Synechdoche for the twelue that oure sauior Christ appoynted to go throughout all the world to preache the gospell vnto the whych number was added S. Paule and as some thinke Barnabas whych are seuered from all other ministers of the gospell by these notes First that they were immediately called of God as s. Paule to the Galathians proueth him selfe to be an apostle because he was not appoynted by men Then that they sawe Christe whych argument S. Paule vseth Am I not an Apostle haue I not seene Christe Thirdly that these had the fielde of the whole worlde to Till where as other are restrained more perticularly as to a certen ploughe lande wherein they shoulde occupye them selues Wherevppon it followeth that as we conclude against the Pope truely that he can be no successor of the Apostles not only because he neyther reacheth nor dothe as they did but because the Apostles haue no successors neither any can succeede into the office of an Apostle so maye we likewise conclude against those that would haue the Apostles nowe adayes that there can be none because there is none vnto whome all these three notes doe agree as that he is bothe sent of God immediately or that he hath seene Christ or that he is sent into all the world And althoughe some Ecclesiasticall wryters do call sometimes good ministers successors of the Apostles yet that is to be vnderstanded because they propound the same doctrine y they did not because they succeded into the same kinde of function whych they could not doe S. Paule doth vse this word Apostle sometimes in hys proper and natiue signification for hym that is publikely sent from any to other as when he speaketh of the brethren that were ioyned wyth Titus whych were sent by the churches wyth reliefe to the pore church in Ierusalem and Iewrie and where he calleth Epaphroditus an Apostle But that is wyth addition and not simply as in the first place he calleth the brethren the apostles of the Churches that is not the apostles of all Churches or sent to all churches but the apostles whych certaine churches sent with the reliefe to other certaine churches and Epaphroditus he calleth not an apostle simply but the apostle of the Philippians that is whych the Philippians sent wyth reliefe to Paule being in prison at Rome as it appeareth in the same Epistle And as for Andronicus and Iunius whych are by you recited belyke to proue that we may haue more apostles because it is sayd of S. Paule that they were famous and notable amongst the apostles it cannot be proued by any thing I see there whether they had any function Ecclesiasticall or no. For S. Paule calleth them hys kinneffolke and fellowe prisonners and dothe not say that they were his fellowe labourers and a man may be well notable and famous amongst the apostles and well knowne vnto them whych is no apostle And if the apostles would haue had this order of the apostles to continue in the church there is no doubt but that they would haue chosen one into Iames hys roume when he was slaine as they did when they supplied the place of Iudas by chusing Mathias and so euer as they had died the other would haue put other in their places So it appeareth that thys function of the apostles is ceased You aske farther that if a man should not preach before he haue a pastoral charge what they will answere vnto Phillip and Epaphroditus wherby your meaning is belike that although they be no pastors yet they may be euangelists whych goe about the countrey heere and there â–ª But this office is ceased in the church as the apostles is sauing that sometime the Lord doth raise vp some extraordinarily for the building vp of the churches whych are falne downe pulled vp by the foundations as I haue shewed somewhat before And that it is ceased it may appeare by these reasons First for because all those that the scripture calleth precisely Euangelists which are only Phillip and Timothe had their callings confirmed by miracle and so it is like that Titus and Syluanus and Apollos and if there were any other had their vocations after the same manner confirmed but there is no such miraculous confirmation nowe therfore there is no suche vocation For allbeit those that God hathe raised vp in those darke times and ouerthrowes of the church wherof meÌ„tion is made before as M. Luther c. had not their â—allings alwayes confirmed by direct and manifest miracles of hearing or raising vp from the deade yet the maruellous succes and blessing that the Lord gaue vnto their labors were sufficient seales vnto all men that althoughe they had no ordinarie calling nor by men yet they were sent of God That I speake nothing of the miraculous deliuerances that some of them had out of dangers by warning geuen of pearils by those whych were neuer seene before nor after and by such like wonderfull meanes as are to be seene in stories Nowe againe if there should be any Euangelist who should ordaine him you will say the Bishop But I say that cannot be that the greater shoulde be ordained of the les For the Euangeliste is a higher degree in the churche then is the byshop or pastor And if he be so whye hathe he not hys estimation heere in the Churche aboue the Byshop or Archbyshop eyther for the Archbyshop is but a Byshop or whye dothe not he ordaine Byshoppes as Timothe and Titus did whych were Euangelistes being one poynte of their office as * Eusebius declareth Againe if there be in euery churche a pastor as S. Paule commaundeth what should the Euangelists do for either that pastor doth his duetie and then the Euangelist is superfluous or if he do it not then he is no lawfull pastor and so ought he to be put out an other to be put in hys stead And where the pastor doing hys duety can not suffice there the scripture hath geuen him an ayde of the doctor which for because his office consisteth in teaching doctrine to thys ende y the pastor mighte not be driuen to spende so muche time in propounding the
shal haue one in euery congregation For Iustin declareth there the Leyturgie or maner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that proestos and see whether there be any resemblance in the world betwene hym and an archbyshop For he placeth hys office to be in preaching in conceiuing prayers in mynistring of the sacramentes Of any commaundement which he had ouer the rest of the mynisters or of any such priuiledges as the archbyshop hath he maketh not one worde It may be that the same myght haue the preheminence of calling the rest together and propounding the matter to the rest of the company and such lyke as is before declared As soone as euer you found proestos you snatched that by and by and went your wayes and so deceyue your selfe and others But if you had red the whole treatise you should haue founde that he was proestos of the people for thus it is written in the same Apologie Epeita prospheretai to Proestoti ton adelphon artos Afterwarde bread is brought to the president of the brethren calling the people as S. Paule doth continually brethren And therefore these are M. Doctors argumentes oute of Martyrs place There was a mynister which dyd stande before or was president of the rest in euery particulare church and congregation therefore there was an archbyshoppe ouer all the prouince And agayne there was one which ruled the people in euery congregation therfore there was one that ruled all the mynisters through out the whole prouince And albeit things were in great puritie in the dayes that Iustin liued in respect of the tymes which followed yet as there was in other things which appeare in hys workes and euen in the ministration of the sacramentes spoken of in that place corruption in that they mingled water and wine together so euen in the ministerie there began to peepe out some thing which went from the simplicitie of the gospel as that the name of proestos which was common to the elders with the ministers of the word was as it seemeth appropriated vnto one Another of M. Doctors reasons for to proue the archbyshop is that Cyrill maketh mention of an high priest wherunto I answere that he that bringeth in a priest into the church goeth about to bury our sauiour Christ for although it myght be proued that the worde priest were the same with the Greekes presbyteros yet as shall appeare in hys place is the vse of thys word priest for a mynister of the gospell very daungerous And as for hym that bringeth in an high priest into the church hee goeth about to put our sauiour Christ out of hys office who is proued in the Epistle to the Hebrues to be the only high priest and that there can be no more as long as the worlde endureth And yet if all thys were graunted you are not yet come to that which you desire to proue that is an archbyshoppe For if you looke in Theodorete you shall fynde thys woorde archierosyne which signifyeth the highe priesthoode to be nothing else but a byshoppricke and in the. 7. chapter of that booke and so forth dyuers tymes you shall haue archiereus taken for a byshop as speaking of the councel of Nice he sayth that there was 318. archiereis highe priestes Now I thincke you wil not say there were 318. archbyshops If you do you are confuted by all ecclesiasticall wryters that euer I red which speaking of them call them byshops Chrysostome followeth which as M. Doctor sayth ruled not only the church of Constantinople but the churches of Thracia Asia and Pontus he sayth it out of Theodorete But heerin it may appeare that eyther M. Doctor hath a very euill conscience in falsifying wryters that in the poyntes which he in controuersie or else he hath taken hys stuffe of certayne at the seconde hand without any examination of it at all For heere he hath set downe in stead of had care of the churches in Thracia c. ruled the churches the Greke is epoieito ten promethcian it is translated also prospexit so that it appeareth he fetched it neyther from Theodorite in Greeke nor in Latine And what is thys to proue an archbyshoppe that he had care of these churches there is no minister but ought to haue care ouer all the churches through christendome and to shew that care for them in comforting or admonishing of them by wryting or by visiting them if the necessitie so require and it be thought good by the churches and leaue obtayned of the place where he is mynister vppon some notable and especiall cause being some man of singular giftes whose learning and credite may profite much to the bringing to passe of that thing for the which he is to be sent After thys sort * S. Cyprian being in Affricke had care ouer Rome in Europe and wrote vnto the church there After thys sort also was * Ireneus byshoppe of Lions sent by the French churches vnto the churches in Phrigia And after thys sort haue M. Caluin and M. Beza bene sent from Geneua in Sauoy to the churches of Fraunce Now if you will conclude heereupon that Cyprian ruled the churche of Rome or Ireneus the churches of Phrigia or maister Caluin or M. Beza the churches of Fraunce or that they were byshops or archbyshops of those places you shall but conclude as you were wont to doe but yet all men vnderstand that heere is nothing lesse then an archbyshop or any such byshoppe as we haue and vse in our church And if so be that Chrysostome should be byshop or archbyshop of al these churches which were in al Asia Pontus Thracia as you wold geue the reader to vnderstand you make hym byshop of more churches then euer the Pope of Rome was when he was in hys greatest pryde and hys Empire largest For there were sixe presidentships in Thracia and in Asia there were a eleuen Princes and had seuerall regions or gouernmentes and in Pontus as many and if he were byshop or archbyshop of all the churches within these dominions he had neede of a long spone to feede with all It is certayne therefore that he was byshop only of the church in Constantinople and had an eye a care to those other churches And that he was byshop of one citie or of one church it may appeare by that which I haue before alleaged oute of the Greeke Scholiaste vpon Titus who citeth there Chrysostome where it is sayd that S. Paule dyd not meane to make one ouer the whole I le but that euery one should haue hys proper congregation c. * And in an other place he sheweth the difference betweene the Emperour and the byshop that the one is ouer the world and the other that is the byshop is ouer one citie Touching Theodorete byshop of Cyrus to let pas that which the bishops of
in hys Diocese hath the ordering of all matters within the circuite thereof and therfore the meaning of the Councell to bee that if there be any affaires that touche the whole Churche many lande that the Byshoppes shoulde doe nothing without making the Metropolitane priuy as also the Metropolitane myght doe nothing without making the other Byshops a counsell of that which he attempted which maister Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if thys authoritie which the councell geueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authorytie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father thys Canon which was ordayned in thys councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsly of the name of the Apostles to geue creadite vnto thys Canon doth cary with it a note of euill and of shame which they woulde haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie And in the hundreth twentie and three page to that which Maister Bucer sayeth that in the Churches there hath bene one which hath beene cheefe ouer the rest of the mynisters if he meane one cheefe in euery particulare churche or one cheefe ouer the mynisters of dyuers churches meeting at one Synode and cheefe for the time and for such respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is And if he meane any other cheefe or after any other sort I deny that any such cheefety was from the Apostles tymes or that any suche cheefetie pleaseth the holye ghoste whereof I haue before shewed the proufes And wheras M. Bucer seemeth to allow that the name of a byshop which the holy ghost expresly geueth to all the ministers of the word indifferently was appropriated to certen cheefe gouernoures of the church I haue before shewed by dyuers reasons how that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the end great hurt to the church And if M. Doctor delyght thus to oppose mens authoritie to the authoritie of the holy ghost and to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture M. Caluin doth openly misselyke of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certayne which the holy ghost maketh common to moe And whereas of M. Caluines wordes which sayth that there be degrees of honor in the mynistery M. Doctor would gather an archbyshop if he had vnderstanded that an Apostle is aboue an Euangelist an Euangelist aboue a pastor a pastor aboue a doctor and he aboue an elder that ruleth only he needed neuer to haue gone to the popish Hierarchie to seeke hys dyuersities of degrees which he myght haue founde in S. Paule And whereas vpon M. Caluines words which sayeth that Paule was one of the cheefe amongst the Apostles he would seeme to conclude an archbyshop amongst the byshops he should haue remembred that S. Paules cheeftie amongst the Apostles consisted not in hauing any authoritie or domynion ouer the rest but in labouring and suffering more then the rest and in giftes more excellent then the rest Now where as hee sayeth that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule myght be in oure handes and we myght doe what we list and that we seeke to wythdraw oure selues from controlement of Prince and Byshoppe and all Firste hee may learne if hee will that wee desire no other authoritie then that which is to the edifying of the church and which is grounded of the word of God which if any mynister shall abuse to hys gayne or ambytion then he ought to abyde not only the controlement of the other mynisters yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the faulte And seeing you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the mynisters and clergy came to the byshops and archbyshops when as the Pope dyd exempt hys shauelinges from the obedience subiection and iurisdiction of the Princes now therfore that we be ready to geue that subiection vnto the Prince and offer our selues to the Princes correction in things wherein we shall doe a misse doe you thincke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to bee disburdened of the byshops and archbyshops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes And in the. 207. page vnto the middest of the 214. page thys matter is agayne handled where first M. Doctor would draw the place of Galathians the second to proue an archbyshop and that by a false translation for hoi dokountes which is they that seemed or appeared he hath translated they the are the cheefe although the place of the Galathians may be thought of some not so pregnant nor so full agaynst the archbyshop yet all must needes confesse that it maketh more against him then for him For S. Paules purpose is to proue there that he was not inferioure to any of the Apostles bringeth one argument thereof that he had not his gospel from them but from Christ immediatly therfore if the apostles that were estemed most of and supposed by the Galathians others to be the cheefe had no superioritie ouer S. Paule but were equall wyth hym it followeth that there was none that had rule ouer the rest And if there needed no one of the Apostles to be ruler ouer the rest there seemeth to be no neede that one byshoppe should rule ouer the rest But that I run not backe to that I haue handled before I will not heere so much vrge the place as I will not doe also that of the Hebrues which followeth and yet the argument is stronger then that M. Doctor coulde answere For if the wryter to the Hebrues doe proue our sauiour Christes vocation to be iust and lawfull because hys calling was contayned in the scriptures as appeareth in the 5. and 6. verse then it followeth that the calling of the archbishop which is not comprehended there is neither iust nor lawfull For that no man sayth the apostle taketh that honour vnto hym selfe but he that is called of god c. But I say hauing before sufficiently spoken of the reasons which ouerthrow the archbyshoppe I will let passe these and other places answearing only that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establishment of them He sayth therefore afterwarde that although one man be not able to be byshop ouer all the church yet he may be byshop ouer a whole diocese or of a prouince Now if I wold say the one is as impossible as the other for proofe thereof alleage that which the Philosophers say that as there are no degrees in that which is infinite so that of thinges which are infinite one thing can not be more infinite then an other so there are no degrees in impossibilitie that of thinges which are impossible one thyng shoulde bee more impossible then an other If I shoulde thus reason I thincke I shoulde putte you to some payne
amendement And that this was the custome of the churches it may appeare by the. 9. of those canons whych are fathered of the apostles wher it is decreed that all the faithfull that entred into the congregation and heard the scriptures red and dyd not tary out the prayers the holy Communion should be as those whych were causers of disorders in the church seperated from the church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the church of God heard the Scriptures and afterward of wantonnes or losenes wythdrewe hym selfe from the communion of the sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerende sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared hys repentaunce But heere also may rise an other doubt of the former wordes of Moses in the boke of Numbers for seing that he maketh thys exception if they be cleane it may be sayd that those that depart do not fele themselues mete to receiue and therfore depart the other .iij. or .iiij. or moe feele themselues meete and disposed for that purpose whervpon it may seeme that it is neither reason to compell those to come which feele not themselues meete nor to reiect them that feele that good disposition and preparation in themselues For answer whervnto we must vnderstand that the vncleannes whych Moyses speaketh of was such as men could not easely auoid and whervnto they might fall sometimes by necessary duety as by handling their dead whych they were by the rule of charitye bound to burye sometimes by touching at vnwares a deade body or by sitting in the place where some vncleane body had sitten or by touching such things whych the law iudged vncleane which thing cannot be alleaged in those that are now of the church For as many as be of it and wythall of suche discretion as are able to proue and examine themselues can haue no excuse at all if they may be at the church to withdraw themselues from the holy supper of the lord For if they will say that they be not meete it may be answered vnto them that it is their owne fault and further if they be not meete to receiue the holy sacrament of the supper they are not meete to heare the woord of God they are not meete to be partakers of the prayers of the church and if they be for one they are also for the other For with that boldnes and wyth that duetye or lawfulnes I speake of those whych are of the church and of discretion to examine themselues I say wyth what lawfulnes they may offer themselues to the prayers and to the hearing of the word of God they may also offer themselues vnto the Lordes supper And to whomsoeuer of thē the Lord wil communicate himselfe by preaching the word vnto the same he wil not refuse to communicate himselfe by receiuing of the sacramēts For whosoeuer is of Gods housholde and familye he neede not be afraide to come to the Lords table nor dout but that the Lord will fede him there and whatsoeuer he be that is a membre of the body of Christ may be assured that he receiueth life frō Christ the head as well by the arteries condints of the supper of the Lord as by the preaching of the word of god So that it must needes folow that the not receiuing of those whych depart out of the church whē there is any communion celebrated procedeth either of vaine and superstitious feare growing of grose ignorance of themselues and of the holy sacraments or else of an intollerable negligence or rather contempt of the whych neither the one nor the other shuld be either borne wyth or nourished either by permitting .iij. or .iiij. to communicate alone or els in letting them whych depart go so easely away with so great a fault whych ought to be seuerely punished And vpon thys either contempt or superstitious feare drawne from the papists Lenton preparation of 40. dayes eareshrift displing c. it commeth to pas that men receyuing the supper of the Lord but seldome when they fall sicke must haue the supper ministred vnto them in their houses whych otherwise being once euery weke receiued before should not brede any such vnquietnes in thē when they can not come to receiue it Although as I haue before shewed if they had neuer receiued it before yet that priuate receiuing were not at any hand to be suffered And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faulty in the communion boke in thys poynt and the reasons why and wyth all answeared to that whych eyther M. doctor alleageth in thys place of the. 80. and. 81. and likewise in the. 152. 185. pages touching thys matter I come now vnto that whych is called the Iewishe purifying by the admonition and by the seruice boke afore time the purification of women Now to the churching of women in the which title yet kept there seemeth to be hid a great part of the Iewish purification For lyke as in the old law shee that had brought forthe a childe was holden vncleane vntill suche time as shee came to the temple to shew her selfe after shee had brought forthe a man or a woman so thys terme of churching of her canseme to import nothing els thē a banishment as it were a certen excommunication from the church during the space that is betwene the time of her deliuery of her comming vnto y church For what doth els thys churching implie but a restoring her vnto y church whych cā not be without some bar or shutting forth presupposed It is also called the thanks giuing but the principall title whych is the directory of this part of the Liturgie placed in the top of the leafe as the whych the translator best liked of is churching of women To pas by the that it wil haue thē come as nigh the communion table as may be as they came before to y high altare because I had spoken once generally against such ceremonies y of all other is most Iewish approcheth nerest vnto the Iewish purification y she is commaūded to offer accustomed offrings Wherin besides that the very word offring caryeth with it a strong sent suspitiō of a sacrifice especially being vttered simply without any addition it can not be without danger that the boke maketh the custome of the popish church whych was so corrupt to be the rule measure of this offring And although the meaning of the boke is not the it shuld be any offring for sin yet this manner of speaking may be a stūbling stock in the way of y ignorant simple the wicked obstinate therby are confirmed hardned in their corruptions The best which can be answered in this case is the it is for the relief of the minister but thē it shuld be
it is easely answeared both to the papistes and M. Doctor that for so much as the Apostle doth witnes that the churches of Corinth consysting of meÌ„ and women dyd receyue that therefore women also dyd receiue and were pertakers of the Lords table Thus it is manyfest that M. Doctor only to displease the authors of the Admonition sticketh not to pleasure iij. notable heretickes Anabaptists Catabaptists and Papists To the next section contayned in the. 96. and a peece of the. 97. page MAister Doctor asketh how it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After thys sorte all thinges necessarye were vsed in the churches of God in the Apostles times but examynation of those whose knowledge of the mistery of the gospell was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therfore it was vsed in the churches of God which were in the Apostles tyme Then he sayeth he is sure there is neither commaundement nor example in all the scripture In the booke of the Chronicles he might haue red that the Leuites were there commaunded to prepare the people vnto the receyuing of the passeouer in place whereof we haue the Lordes supper Now examination being a part of the preparation it followeth that heere is coÌ„maundement of the examination And how holdeth thys argument S. Paule commaundeth that euery man should proue hym selfe Ergo there is no commaundement that the mynister should proue and examine them so I may say that euery man is a spirituall king to gouerne hym selfe therefore he may not be gouerned of others The authors of the Admonition doe not meane that euery one shoulde be examyned as those whose vnderstanding in the gospell is well knowen or which doe examyne them selues and so they interpreate them selues in the. 108. page To the next section in the 97. 98. and in a peece of the. 99. pages I Haue spoken of thys bread before in generall and if Maister Doctor dyd not disagree wyth hym selfe we are heere well agreed For first he sayth it skilleth not what bread we haue and by and by he sayth that he wysheth it were common bread and assigneth a great cause which the booke of seruice lykewise assigneth which is to auoyde superstition And it is certaynely known by experience that in dyuers places the ignoraunt people y haue beene mysled in popery haue knocked and kneeled vnto it and helde vp theyr handes whilest the mynister hath geuen it not those only which haue receyued it but those which haue bene in the churche and looked on I speake of that whiche I knowe and haue sene wyth my eyes An other reason is alleaged by Mayster Bucer which is that there being some thicker substance of breade and such as should moue and stirre vp the tast better the consyderation of the mynde which is conueyed by the senses might be also the more effectuall and so the fruite of receyuing greater By the way note that eyther Bucers censures vppon the booke of seruice be falsely ascribed vnto hym or be corrupted or else were not euen in hys owne tyme heere thought good substantiall and suffycient when there is some cause by Acte of Parliament afterwarde found I meane in the second booke of kyng Edward to mislyke wafer cakes and to chaunge them into common bread How so euer it be that circumstance would be well marked that it was one thyng to talke of a wafer cake in the vse of the supper in kyng Edward dayes before they were iustly abolyshed an other thyng now being reuoked after they were remoued Besides that we be called by the example of our sauioure Christe to vse in the supper vsuall and common bread for what time our sauioure Christ celebrated hys supper there was no other breade to be gotten but vnleauened breade there being a straight charge geuen by the lawe that there should be then no leauened bread And it is not to be doubted but that if there had bene then when he celebrated hys supper as at other times nothyng but leauened breade he woulde not haue caused vnleauened bread to haue bene made for that purpose of celebrating hys supper But thys is a grosse ouersyght of M. Doctor both in thys section and that whych goeth before that he hathe not learned to make a difference betwene that whych is not sincerely done and that whych is not at all done For in the former section he triumpheth vpon the admonition because they conclude that for as muche as there is no examination therefore it is not rightly and sincerely ministred For sayeth he the examination of the communicants is not of the substance of the sacrament and in thys section he sayeth that for as muche as it is not of the substance of the sacrament whether there be leauened or vnleauened bread therfore it is not sufficiently proued that the sacrament is not sincerely ministred But he ought to haue vnderstanded that if either the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine or the forme of it whych is the institution whych thyngs are only substantiall partes were wanting that then there should haue bene no sacrament ministred at all but they being retayned and yet other things vsed whych are not conuenient the Sacrament is ministred but not sincerely For example in the popishe baptisme there was the substance of baptisme but there being vsed spyttle and creame and candels and such beggerly trumpery it was not sincerely ministred therefore it is one thyng to minister sincerely and an other thyng to minister so that that whych is of the substance shoulde be wanting But of thys distinction I haue spokeÌ„ in an other place wherinto although M. doctor falleth in the next section and in other places yet thys shall be an answere for all The meaning of the Admonition in saying their God of the altar is plain enough that it is vnderstanded of the papists but that M. Doctor doth set him selfe to draw the authors of it into hatred and he can not be ignorant that when a man speaketh of thyngs whych are notoriously knowne he often vseth the or that or their wythout naming the thyngs whych he speaketh of To the next section contained in the. 99. and a peece of the. 100. page ALthough it be not of necessity that we shuld receyue the communion sitting yet there is the same cause of abolyshing kneeling that there is of remouing the wafer cake and if there be danger of superstition in one as M. Doctor confesseth why is there not danger in the other And if there be men that take occasion to fall at the one and that by superstition howe commeth it to passe that M. Doctor in the. 180. page sayeth that neyther gospeller nor papistes obstinate nor simple can superstitiously offend in this kneelyng when as the kneeling caryeth a greater shewe of worshyp and Imprinteth in the mindes of the ignorant a stronger opinion and a deeper print of adoration then the syght of a rounde â—ake And
plainly by Ierome whych folowed Ambrose immediatlye who in hys third chapter vpon Esay sayeth that they had also the presbyterie or eldershyp in the church The same myght be shewed by diuers other testimonies whych I omit because that it may appeare by the former treatise touchyng the election of the mynister that thys order of eldershyp continued in the church diuers hundreth yeares after Ambrose tyme euen as long almoste as there was any sound part of the church from the head to the heele Nowe I haue shewed the ignorance it remayneth to shewe howe that eyther M. Doctor was maruellously hym selfe abused or else desyreth to abuse other For if wheras he toke halfe Ambrose sentence he had taken the other halfe wyth hym and had not sodenly stopped hys breath that he should speake no more in steade of a false wytnes agaynst the eldershyp he should haue brought forthe as cleare and as flat a witnes for the proofe of them as a man coulde desire out of an auncient wryter The whole sentence is thys speakyng of thys offyce of the elders although not vpon so good occasyon thus he sayeth Whervpon the sinagoge and after the church had elders wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church whych Elders I know not by what neglygence they are worne out onles it be through the slouthfulnes of the doctors or rather throughe theyr pryde whylest they only would seeme to be somewhat Now that I haue shewed the place I wyll say no more I wyl leaue it to M. Doctor to thinke of it in his chamber by hym selfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as thys order is such as wythout whych the principall offices of charity can not be exercysed and that it is that which is commauÌ„ded by the scryptures approued and receyued by all the churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundreth yeares after in the most flouryshing churches bothe in tyme of peace in tyme of persecution and that there are greater causes why it should be in the tyme of peace then in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant why rather now then in the apostles times that in consyderation of these things the eldershyp is necessary and such an order as the church ought not to be wythout And so also is answeared the third question that for so much as they were church offycers and ouer the people in matters pertayning to God such as watched ouer the soules of men that therfore although they were not pastors to preach the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons The rest comprehended in these sections is answeared before being matter whych pertayned vnto the archbyshop Nowe I returne backe agayne to Excommunicacion whych M. Doctor thynketh to be the only disciplyne in the church but he shuld vnderstand that besyde that parte of priuate disciplyne whych is ordinarily and dayly to be exercised by euery one of the pastors elders as Admonition and reprehension there are .iij. princypal parts whych are exercised of them ioyntly and together wherof the first is the election or choyse and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesiasticall officers The second is in excommunication of the stubburne or absolution of the repeÌ„tant The third is the decision of all such matters as doe ryse in the church eyther touchyng corrupt manners or peruerse doctryne As touchyng the election and consequently the throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together wyth the churche the eldershyp hathe the principall sway For the decision of controuersyes wheÌ„ they ryse it may appeare in the. 15. of the Acts that the Presbyterie or Eldershyp of the churche hath to determine of that also Nowe it remayneth heere that whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the Excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoryng to the church agayne doth pertayne only to the minister that I shewe that the Presbyterye or eldership and the whole church also hath interest in the Excommunication and consequently in the absolution or restoryng vnto the churche But heere by the way it is to be noted that in saying that it belongeth to the minister he confesseth the dysorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and geuen to the byshop and hys offycers Nowe that thys charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minyster but cheefely to the eldershyp and pastor it appeareth by that whych the authors of the admonition alledge out of S. Mathewe whych place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstaÌ„ded of the elders of the church It is most absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstanded eyther my Lordes grace or the byshop of the diocese or the Chancellor or Commissarye And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayd to complayne vnto the church whych is the more vntollerable for that being so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe all that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by any reason or lyke phrase of scrypture or by the authority of any godly or approued wryter olde or newe whych notwythstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in hys study so painefully when he can haue but one against twentye and but a sillable where he can not haue a sentence It may be the clearlyer vnderstanded that the presbyterie or eldership had the cheefe stroke in this excoÌ„munication if it be obserued that thys was the pollicy and discipline of the Iewes and of the smagogue from whence our sauyoure Christ toke this and translated it vnto this church that when any man had don any thing that they held for a fault that then the same was punished and censured by the Elders of the church according to the quality of the faulte as it maye appeare in S. Mathewe For althoughe it be of some and those very learned expounded of the ciuill iudgement yet for so muche as the Iewes had nothyng to do wyth ciuill iudgements the same being altogyther in the hands of the Romaines and that the word sanâ—drim corrupted of the Greeke worde synedrion whych S. Mathewe vseth is knowen by those that haue skill in the Rabbins and especially the Iewes Talmud to signifye the ecclesiasticall gouernors there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiasticall censures And if the fault were iudged very great then the sentence of Excommunication was awarded by the same elders as appeareth in S. Iohn And thys was the cause why our sauioure Christe spake so shortly of thys matter in the. 18. of S. Mathew wythout noting the circumstances more at large for that he spake of a thyng whych was well knowne and vsed amongst the Iewes whome he spake vnto And that this was the meaning of our sauioure Christe in those wordes it may appeare by the practise whych is set forthe in the Epistles
is mentioned of one Theodotus who is sayd to haue seperated or excommunicated Apollinaris but it doth not appeare there that he alone of hys owne authority dyd excommunicate hym And there be great reasons in that Chapter to proue that he dyd it not of hys owne authority for immediatly after his heresy was knowne Damasus bishop of Rome and Peter bishop of Alexandria caused a sinode to be gathered at Rome where hys heresy was condemned Now for so much as the custome of synodes and councels is when they condenme the heresyes to excommunicate the heretickes it is to be thoughte that that councell dyd excommunicate hym and that Theodotus byshop of Laodicea dyd execute that decree and excommunication And in deede Sozomene doth so expound hym selfe when immediatly after he had sayde that he dyd excommunicate him he addeth acoinonetoh auton apophainei whych is that he declared him excommunicate whych in deede properly belongeth to the minister when the excommunication is decreed by those to whoÌ„ it appertaineth Whych thing may yet better appeare by the manner of speache whych is vsed in an other place where speaking of â—ictor excommunycating Theodotus he vttereth it by thys apekeryxe whych is to promulgate or pronounce the sentence whych was decreed by others As for Amb. although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperor yet he was neuer commended for that he did excommunicate him himselfe alone and if he dyd excommunicate him himselfe alone yet hys fault was the les for so much as he being desirous of an eldershyp could not as it semeth by hys complaint which I haue spoken of before â—â—â—aine one And although the storyes doe not make mention y there were others whose authority came into thys excommunication yet it followeth not y there were no other And how often wil you stomble at that which you do so sharply reproue in others whych is in making of arguments of authority negatiuely And if you will not grauÌ„t thys manner of reasonyng in the scripture in matters pertaining to the gouernment of the church whych are all comprehended in the scripture how would you reason of a common story whych neither can nor dothe professe to speake all those things whych fall into that matter whych it wryteth of But what if so be it be proued that Ambrose did not this of hys owne authoritye but by the authoritye also of others will you then confesse that he is commended of all those whych wryte stories for so doing and confesse that the vse and practise of the primitiue church was far from thys that is nowe For proufe whereof I will geue you a place whych Ambrose the best wytnes of thys matter hath in one of his epistles wher he sheweth that assone as the murther whych Theodosius had caused to be done at the citye of Thessalonica was heard by and by the byshops of Fraunce came and there was holden a Synode where also Ambrose sayeth that hys communicating wyth Theodosius coulde not absolue hym for that as it myght appeare the byshops in that synode had in excommunicating hym ordained that he should not be absolued vntill suche tyme as he had done repentance whych he did afterward with confessyon of his faulte before the congregation and asking forgeuenes of it So it appeareth that that whych he did he did it by the sentence of the synode and not of hys owne authority alone In the. 220. 221. pages he speaketh of thys thing a fresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehersall of the places of the admonition asking after hys accustomed manner of confuting what maketh thys or what proueth that only wheras he sayd before and proued as he thought that the minister had only to do wyth excommunication being pressed there by the admonition either to defend or renounce hys Chauncellors c. he had rather deny bothe the truth and himselfe then he wold haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by popery threatnyng the ouerthrow of the whole church seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and idlenes of a fewe driuen out of the church Of the whych I will vpon occasion speake a word if first I shewe that the vse of the auncyent church hath bene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence therof should come from the gouernors and elders of the church vnto whome that dyd especially appertaine Although I can not passe by that which M. doctor sayth that for so much as the authors of the Admonition had alledged the words tell the church to proue the interest of the church in excommunication that therefore they could not vse the same to proue the interest of the pastor as who should saye that the pastor is not one of the church But of the absurdity of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and how all men do see the vanity of thys reason that because that people haue an interest by thys place therfore the pastor hath none But I come to shew the vse of the primitiue church in thys matter wherof we haue a manifest testimony in Tertullian If sayth he there be any whych hath committed suche a faulte that he is to be put away from the partakyng of the prayer of the church and from all holy matters or affaires there do beare rule or be presidents certaine of the most approued auncients or elders whych haue obtayned thys honor not by mony but by good report And that the auncients had the ordering of these things and the peoples consent was required and that if the case were a very difficult case it was referred vnto the synodes or councels and that the ministers dyd not take vpon them of their owne authority to excommunicate and that those whych dyd receiue the excommunicate wythout the knowledge consent of the churche were reprehended it may appeare almost in euery page of Cyprians Epistles and namely in these whych I haue noted in the margent In Augustines tyme it appeareth also that the consent of the church was required for in the third boke agaynst the epistle of Parmenian he sheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for which one is to be excommunicated that then it helpeth much to make the party both afrayde and ashamed that he be excommunicated or anathematised as he calleth it by all the churche and in hys bookes de Baptis contra Donatistas in diuers places he is so far from permitting the excommunication to one man that he semeth to fal into the other extremity whych is to make the estate of the church to populare and the people to haue too great a sway For there he sheweth that if the most of the people be infected wyth the fault whych is to be punyshed by excommunication that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because a sufficient numbre of voyces will not be obtained
as oure lyfe is a continuall meditation of death it is not salfe to vse thys custome for that it tyeth our cogitation to so short a tyme as the tyme of buryall is which ought to be extended to the whole course of our lyfe But I answere that it may be well done wythout any such funerall sermons when the minister taketh occasion of the death of any whych is lately departed to speake of the vanity of the life of man Whether M. doctor lyketh the reformation or no so it is in the church where M. Caluin was pastor hath ben for these many yeres And although the Englishe church in Geneua had that in the boke of common prayer yet as I haue heard of those whych were there present it was not so vsed And if it had bene yet therby it is not proued that M. Caluin allowed of it For wyth thyngs wherin ther was no great and manifest disorder M. Caluin dyd beare that whych he lyked not of And there being no papists in all the city and al being wel instructed there was no such danger in a funerall sermon there as is here amongst vs where there is many papists and mo ignorant I will say nothyng of the great abuse of those whych hauing otherwyse to lyue on of the church take nobles for euery such sermon and sometime a mourning gowne whych causeth the papistes to open their mouthes wide and to say that the marchandise of sermons is much dearer then of the masse for that they might haue for a grote or six pence and the sermon they cannot haue vnder a roūder sum That must be remembred whych I had almost forgotten howe vntruely and slaunderously M. doctor sayth that the authors of the admonition do compare the sermon wyth a trentall or a masse For whē I say in stead of the masse we haue the holy Communion doe I compare or lyken the communion to the masse and yet this is M. doctors charitable collection which gathereth thyngs whych no man letteth fall Touching the place of buryall I haue spoken before And although it be not to be mislyked that there should be a cōmon place to bury in yet the places whych M. doctor poynteth vs vnto proue the cleane contrary For by the story of Abrahams place of buryall it appeareth that the manner was that euery one was buryed in hys owne seuerall groūd as may appeare also by that that the euangelist sayth that there was a field bought to bury the strangers in whych had no place of their owne whych was also vsed sometimes in the churches vnder the gospell as appeareth by the story of Theodoret whych I haue before recited in the later end of a funeral oratien which Gregory Nazianzene made of the death of hys brother Cesarius And so by this reason M. doctor wold haue euery one buryed in hys owne possession To the next section I haue answeared before where I haue entreated of churchyng women and of prayer it foloweth to speake vnto that in the. 205. and. 206. pa. TO pas by the prophane prouerbe here vsed which matcheth mad men women children togither most vnsemely for a D. of diuinity especially handling diuine matters for the singing of psalmes by course and side after side although it be very auncient yet it is not commēdable and so much the more to be suspected for that the deuil hath gone about to get it so great authority partly by deriuing it from Ignatius time and partly in making the world beleue that thys came from heauen and that the angels were heard to sing after thys sorte whych as it is a mere fable so is it confuted by hystoriographers whereof some ascribe the begynning of thys to Damasus some other vnto Flauianus Diodorus Frō whēce so euer it came it can not be good considering that when it is graūted y all the people may praise God as it is in singing of psalmes there this ought not to be restrained vnto a few wher it is lawful both with hart and voyce to sing the whole psalme there it is not mete that they should sing but the one halfe wyth their heart and voice and the other with their heart only For where they may both wyth heart and voice sing there the heart is not enough Therfore besides the incommodity whych commeth thys way in that being tossed after thys sort men can not vnderstande what is song these other two inconueniences come of thys forme of singing and therfore is banyshed in all reformed churches Vnto two very good reasons whych the admonition vseth to shewe the inconnenience of making curtesy and stāding at the name of Iesus and at the gospell rather then at other names of God and the rest of the scripture wherof the one is that it is against decencye and good order whych is broken by scraping of the feete and the other y it may brede a dangerous opinion of the inequality either of the sonne of God with the other persons or of the gospels with other scriptures M. doctor sayth y it is an indifferent thyng and neyther taketh away their reasons nor setteth down any of hys own thys is a slēder defence And it is no malicious dealing to note those faults whych are so generall so open yet notwithstanding vncorrected or vnreformed by those by whom M. d. wold make vs beleue that the church is best gouerned But I pray you tel me why do you cōdemn the seruing of two cures the alow the hauing of two benefices If it be no fault to haue two benefices how is it one to haue two cures for the curate is better able to read hys seruice in .ij. places thē the pastor to discharge his office in .ij. churches As for the speche of the cathedral churches either it is nothing or els it is fals For if he say y ther is either in al those cathedral churches one or in euery of those 12. churches one which is able to cōfute papists c. what great thing saith he which sayeth no more of all these churches then is to be found in one poore house of the vniuersity whose rents are skarce three hundred pound by yeare yea what hath he sayd of them whych was not to be founde in them euen in Queenes Maryes tyme when there was yet some one almoste in euerye Churche whych for feare dissemblyng was able notwythstanding to confute the Papistes Anabaptistes Puritanes And if he meane that in those .xij. houses the worst of the Prebendaries are hable to defend the truth agaynst all Papists c. all men do know the vntruthe of it so that althoughe thys sentence be very doubtfully put forthe yet how so euer it be taken it is as M. Doctor hath ryghtly termed it a mere brag And yet I doubt not and am well assured that there be diuers godly learned men whych haue lyuings in those places but for all that they cease not therefore
of the archbyshops it followeth to speake vnto the remnant of that section which is contayned in the. 214. 215. 216. 217. 218. pages for vnto a part therof which is comprehended in the. 213. and a peece of the. 214. page I haue answeared in the same treatise of the Archbyshops THe places alledged by the Admonition to proue that mynisters of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one only excepted are well and fitly alledged and most of them vsed to that ende of wryters which if I should name all would confesse that they are such as with whome M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day For the first place if so be that the mynister ought rather to leaue necessary dueties of burying hys father saluting hys frends vndone then that he shoulde not accomplysh hys ministery to the full much more he ought not to take vpon hym those thinges which are not only not necessary dueties but as it shall appeare doe in no case belong vnto hym And although it may be applyed to all Chrystians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the mynisters And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauyoure Chrystes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce betweene the brethren it is moste aptly alledged to thys purpose For althoughe our sauioure Christe doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet hee sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to intermeddle in the iudgement of cyuil causes For our sauioure Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he being a Minister of the Gospell dyd all those things which were pertayning to hys mynistery So by refusing thys office of iudgement in cyuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was the ministery And therfore it is altogether out of season that M. D. here alledgeth that the Anabaptistes vse thys reason to proue that christians may not haue magistrates For how doth thys follow that because thys place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there coulde bee no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alledgeth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for hym but doth quite ouerthrow hys cause For he sayeth that our sauiour Christ dyd not refuse thys as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but because it dyd not agree with hys vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a mynister of the gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a mynister of the gospell to iudge or to entermeddle in cyuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins works as by hys often allegation of hym he woulde make the world beleue he might haue * red in hym thys sentence cited for thys purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to doe with ciuill things Furthermore M. D. asketh what S. Paules place to the Romanes where he willeth that he which hath an office must waite of that office he that teacheth of his teaching maketh to thys purpose Surely M. Doc. very much Neither can there be a place more properly alledged both for the very playnes of the words also for the circumstāce of the place For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which would ouerreach their callings hauing certeine callings contented not them selues with them but woulde haue an ore in euery mans boate and would take more vpon them then they were able to doe or the measure of theyr giftes would stretch vnto And therefore sheweth that as the body is best preserued when euery member thereof doth hys office and destroyed when one member will take vpon it to do the office of an other so the church is then best gouerned when euery Ecclesiasticall person keepeth hym selfe within the limits of hys calling not medling with that which pertayneth vnto an other But M. Doctor sayeth that the byshoppe gouerneth as well by disciplyne as by preaching so he doth But I pray you by what dysciplyne what a reason is thys he gouerneth by discipline ergo by ciuill disciplyne You say in the next sentence that the authors of the admonition either dote or dreame But if these be your sharpe disputations when you are awake surely they are very blunt when you dreame But I had rather iudge the best that Maister Doctor was ouer-watched The last place which is alledged by the admonition is out of the epistle to Tim. where it sheweth that for so much as the estate of a minister is as that of a souldier therfore as the souldyer to the end he myght the better please hys captaine doe hys seruice of warfare quitteth all those things which he loueth whereof otherwyse he might haue care and might enioy euen so the mynister ought to dispatch hym selfe of all those things which may be any let to the office of hys mynistery although he might otherwise lawfully vse thē And if so be for the performing of the ministery to the full he must quite those things which he may lawfully vse how much more might the admonition conclude that he ought not to entangle himselfe with those things which out of the places of S. Luke and to the Romaines it had shewed to be vnlawfull for hym to meddle with And although M. D. say the sentence be generall yet it is particularly ment and most properly of the mynisters which Maister Caluin teacheth M. Doctor in the same place where he hath cited hys authoritie twise to no purpose For what although M. Caluin doe not there apply in prescript words thys sentence to proue that mynisters ought not to meddle with cyuill offices doth it follow therefore that thys place can not be vsed thereto In saying that he ought to abstayne from all lets which may hinder his vocation ministery he doth cōsequently say that he ought to abstayne from all ciuill offices And if so be M. Doct. had bene so well red in the auncient doctors as he would seeme he might haue knowen that thys place is vsed of * Cyprian to the same purpose that it is alledged heere For Cyprian speaking agaynst an elder which had taken vpon him to be executor to one which was dead alledgeth thys place To these reasons of the admonition may be added that which the admonition hath in the. 230. page that the regiment of the church is spirituall and respecteth the conscience therefore hath not to do with ciuill offices which respect properly the common wealth and the outward godly honest and quiet behauior And therefore their meaning is ▪ that as the ciuill gouernor doth vse such kinde of punishment as may bridle the outward man hold hym
A REPLYE TO AN answere made of M. Doctor VVhitegifre AGAINSTE THE ADMONITION to the Parliament By T. C. ISAIE 61. ver 1. For Syons sake I will not holde my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not rest vntill the righteousnes therof breake forthe as the lighte and the saluation thereof be as a burning lampâ— Ver. 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers keepe not silence and geue hym no rest vntill he repayre and set vp Ierusalem the prayse of the world The Printer to the Reader SOme perhaps will maruel at the newe impression of thys boke and so muche the more will they wonder because they shall see that with great confidence boldnes notwythstanding our most gracious Princes late published proclamation procured rather by the Byshops then willingly sought for by her maiestie whose mildnes is such that she were easyer led to yelde to the proclamation of the highest then drawne to proclaime any thing against hym were it not for the subtil perswasions and wicked dealings of thys horned generation as by their false doctrine and cruell practises is to bee seene and by the speciall motion of Gods spirite and hys protection it hath bene both attempted and ended But cease to muse good christian reader whosoeuer thou art and learne to know that no lawes were they neuer so hard and seuere can put out the force of Gods spirite in hys children nor any cruelty though it stretched it selfe so far as to sheding of bloud from which kynde of dealing the Byshops are not cleare as the Prysons in London the Gatehouse at Westminster c. can witnesse the Lord for geue them and vs our sinnes can discharge the sayntes and seruauntes of the Lord from going forwarde in that which is good For the profite therefore of the godly and their instruction haue we hazarded our selues and as it were cast our selues into suche daungers and troubles as shal be layed vpon vs if we come into the haÌ„ds of the persecuting Bishops From the which pray the Lord if it be hys will to delyuer vs if not yet that it woulde please hym to geue vs both patience to beare what so euer he shall geue them power and lyberty to lay vpon vs and constancy also to contynue in hys truth and the profession thereof vnto our lyues end Farewell in the Lord and prayse God for thys worke I. S. Faultes escaped Page 2. line 14. for arme read army pa. 60. line 30. for thys spirite read hys spirite Page 39. line 41. for when read whom pa. 39. line 47. for against them read agaynst hym Page 26. line 37. for appose read oppose pa. 23. line 31. for ioipon read loipon and for proegoron read proegoros pa. 10. li. 41. for kairoutiche read kairou tyche pa. 69. for dioceris diocesis Page 9. line 16. put a comma at speache and a full poynt at vse Page 106. line 12. for to breake read doe breake Page 118. line 31. in the ende therof adde whych thyng also M. Doctor graunteth Page 127. line 6. for I beleue read I wil beleue page 127. line 8. For the apostles read For the false Apostles page 129. line 51. for and more in the read and more to in the. Page 130. line 41. for sole meditation read sole mediation page 137. line 49. for and that it is read and it is page 138. line 4. for ingenium read ingenuum page 138. line 14. for necessary read necessarily page 141. line 15. for there is greater read there is a greater Page 142. line 32. for and other read an other page 144. line 7. for herevpon read herevnto Page 144. line 51. for celebrating in one kinde read celebrating it in one kinde Page 146. line 18. for the other vsed in the other vsed only in pa. 160. li. 23. for tute read true Page 163. line 43. for there were many read there were very many page 174. line 3. for Ambose read Ambrose page 188. line 29. for in England or in Ireland read and in England Page 189. line 8. for vicarse read vicares page 1â—8 in the margent for Concil Valense reade Concil Vasense page 201. in the margent adde to that of August lib. 2. de consolatione mortuorum cap. 5. page 207. line 42. read for catexochen read cathexochen Page 205. line 21. for possessed read dysposesssed Page 210. line 46. and other thyngs and do other thyngs pa. 214. li. 15. for iabon read labon Page 215. line 20. for or so much deceyued of read or so much as deceiued A short Table of the princypall poyntes entreated of in thys boke made according to the order of the Alphabet A  M. Doctors Anacletus counterfait 92. M. Doctors Anicetus counterfait 92. There are now no Apostles 63. The churche was established in the Apostles tymes 51. Apostles appoynted no archbyshoppes but byshoppes 92. Corruptions entred into the church immediatly after the times of the apostles 96. Apparell of the mynisters 71. c. Apparell of mourners is either hypocriticall or els daungerous to prouoke excessiue sorrow 201. Archbyshops archdeacons names vnlawfull 82. c. Archbyshops names are not so auncient as they be supposed 88. c. Archbyshops and archdeacons offyces vnlawfull 83. c. Archbishops offices as they were in times past haue now no place with vs and of the small prerogatiue which they had then aboue other byshops 122. c. Archbyshops not spoken of by Cyprian nor bishops such as oures is but of S. Paules bishops 98. c. Archdeacons in times past how much they differed from oures now 96. Arguments of authority negatiuely or affirmatiuely out of the scripture good the vse of theÌ„ when they be drawne from men 25. B  QuestioÌ„s about Baptisme answered 172. c. QuestioÌ„s ministred to infaÌ„ts in Baptisme 169 Crossing in Baptisme wherof it rose 170. c Basile a poore Metropolitane 94. Byshops in tymes past most vnlike oure byshops now 106. c. General faults of the Boke of coÌ„mon prayer 131. Prescript forme of prayer at Burials inconuenient 200. Les lamenting the dead and les charges about Burials permitted vnto vs then to those vnder the law 200. c. Buryall sermons inconuenient 201. c. Buryall places where they were in the olde churches 69. C  Cathedral churches in times past those which are now greatly differ 204. Cathedral churches rightly called dens do hurt the good which they might do if they were conuerted into colledges or houses of study 205. â— â–ª Ceremonies must be tried by rules in the scripture and by which 27. Ceremonies making in the church belongeth vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 192. Difference betwene placing Ceremonies in the church which were not besâ—â—e tollerating those which are already placed 25. Chauncelers iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Church hath not power to ordayne whether preaching or ministring of the sacramentes shal be priuate or publike 28. Church must not be framed vnto the common wealth but the
be done in the beginning where the reader shall not be able so well to vnderstand what is sayde of me vnlesse he haue M. D. booke before hym The cause of which diuersitie rose of that that I first purposed to set downe his answer before my reply as he dyd the admonition before hys answer But afterward considering that hys booke being already in the handes of men it would be double charges to bye it agayne and especially weighing with my selfe that through the slownes of the prynt for want of helpe the reply by that meanes should come forth later then was conuenient for although he myght commodyously bryng in the admonition being short yet the same coulde not be done in his booke swellyng in that sort which it doth I say these thinges consydered I changed my mynde and haue therfore set downe the causes which moued me so to doe because I know that those if any be which haue determyned to contynue theyr foreiudged opynions agaynst the cause whatsoeuer be alledged wyll hereupon take occasion to surmyse that I haue left out hys answere to the end that it myght the lesse appeare wherein I haue passed ouer any weyght of hys reasons where as had it not bene for these causes which I haue before aledged my earnest desire was to haue set hys answere before my reply whereof I call the Lord to wytnesse whom I know to be a sharpe iudge agaynst those which shall abuse hys holy name to any vntruth ¶ An answeare to the whole Epistle to the Church WHat causes eyther pulled you forward or thrust you backward to wryte or not to wryte and how in thys dispute wyth your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in thys sort I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lord who only knoweth the secretes of the heart and will in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of contention whych you set downe as the first and principall cause that beat you backe from wryting might well haue ben put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bene so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches enemylike speaches as it were stickes and coales to double and treble the heat of contention If the sharpnes of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke they outreached in some vehemency of words how could you more effectually haue cōfuted that then to haue in a quiet and milde spirite set them in the way which in your opinion had left it now in words condenming it and approuing it in your dedes I wil not say that you do not so much mislike thys sharpness as you are sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whych he sayd Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words when I see the dedes In the fourth reason wherby you were discouraged to wryte if by backbiters and vnlearned tongs viperous kinde of men not able to iudge of controuersies caryed away wyth affections and blinde zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erronious opinions you meane all those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answere for my selfe and for as many as I know of them that they are they which first desire so it be truely to heare and speak◠all good of you But if that be not through your perseuerance in the maintenaunce of the corruptions of this church which you should helpe to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill which you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to doe may be knowen to the lesse discredite of the truth and sinceritie which you with such might and mayne doe striue agaynst Touching our vnlearned tongues we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned then they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tunges to speake falsly And how vnlearned so euer you would make the world beleue that we and our tunges be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned enough to defend the truthe agaynst all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be the * generation of Christ which you call viperous kynde of men know you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen for all indifferent iudgement it will easely perceiue that you are as far from the spirite of * Iohn Baptist as you are nere to hys maner of speche Which you vse whether it be affection or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being layde out shall be wayed indifferently Whereas you say that your duetie towards God and the Queene her maiesty moued you to take thys laboure in hande it will fall out vppon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in thys enterprise and worke of youres so haue you done nothing lesse then any godly duetie which you owe vnto her Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that wherein an euill matter you coulde yelde no duetie yet now you haue done that which you thought a duetie which iudgeinent we will so long keepe of you vntill you shall by oppugning of a knowen truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defend let it in the name of God appeare by our seuerall proufes and answeares of both sides And as for the slaunderous surmises whereby in your third and last consideration you set the Papistes of the one side of vs and the Anabaptistes of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our handes as it were to them both first it ought not to be strange vnto vs miserable sinners seeing that the Lord hym selfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greuous malefactors as though he had bene worse then they both Then for answere of those slaunderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are geuen out in more particular manner An answere to that which is called a briefe examination of the reasons vsed in the Admonition to the Parliament IF the scriptures had bene applyed to the mayntenaunce of the abhomination of the masse and some other of the grossest of antichristianitie you could haue sayd no more nor vsed vehementer speache then thys that they are most vntollerably abused and vnlearnedly applyed And then where is charitie which couereth the multitude of faultes especially in brethren when you do not only not couer them but also take away their garmentes whereby they are couered I will not deny but that there be some few places quoted whych might haue bene spared but there are a great number which M. Doctor tosseth throweth away
was neuer hereticke so abhominable but that he had some truth to cloke hys falshode should hys vntruths and blasphemies driue vs from the possession of that which he holdeth truely no not the Deuill hym selfe saying that * God had geuen his angels charge ouer his can thereby wring this sentence from vs why we should not both beleue it and speake it being a necessary truth to beleue and speake You may as wel say we are Anabaptists because we say there is but one God as they did one Christ as they did c. And heere I will geue the reader a tast of your Logike that you make so much of in your boke The Anabaptists say that the churches ought to chuse their minister and not the magistrate And you say so Therfore you are Anabaptists or in the way to Anabaptisme The Anabaptists complained that the Christians vsed not their authoritie in excommunication And so do you complaine Therfore you are Anabaptists or in the way to them I will not lay to your charge that you haue not learned Aristotles Priorums which sayth it is asystaton as often as the meane in any syllogisme is cōsequent to both the extremes But haue you not learned that whych Seton or any other halfepenny Logik telleth you that you can not conclude affirmatiuely in the second figure and of thys sort are euery one of your surmises contained in thys Treatise whych you entitle an exhortation c. And if I liked to make a long boke of little matter as you do I would thus gather your argumēts out of euery brasich whych you ascribe as common vnto vs wyth the Anabaptists as you make adoe vpon euery place whych is quoted by the admonition to the Parliament But answer I pray you in good faith are you of that iudgement that the ciuill magistrate should ordaine ministers Or that there should be no excommunication whych we know was in the primitiue and is vsed in certaine the Heluetian churches If you be your controuersy is not so much wyth vs as wyth the byshops whych both call ministers and excommunicate If you be not why is that Anabaptisticall in vs whych is christian and catholike in you and why do you go about to bring vs in hatred for those things whych you do no more alow then these whom you thus endeuor to discredite We do not say that there is no lawfull or no ordinary calling in England for we do not deny but that he maye be lawfully called whych is not ordinarily as M. Luther Melancthon Zuinglius Oecolampadius c. and there be places in England where the ministers are called by their parishes in such sorte as the examples of the scripture do shew to haue bene done before the eldershyp and gouernment of the church be established I know not any that saith that the gospel is not truely preached in Englande and by those also that are not of the same iudgement that the Admonition to the Parliament is of But if it be sayd that it is not generally of euery one of them and in all poynts or not so oftē or not there where their duety bindeth them and they are called vnto or not so sincerely or wythout mixture as it oughte to be then there is nothing sayde but that which we feare may be too easely proued If it be sayde of some that in certaine there are found some of those things that were reprehēded in the Phariseis what is that to proue that they be Anabaptistes y speake it Your selfe in one place of your booke call the authors of the Admonition and their fauourers Phariseis who do all thyngs to be seene of men and therefore they sighe and holde downe their heades c. and thys you speake against them that preache the gospell Therefore by your reason you geue sentence of Anabaptisme against your selfe You promised you would not wryte one worde wherof you had not your author for it First you haue peruerted the meaning of the Anabaptists in that wherein they accused the godly ministers that they were not according to that whych is wrytten in the third of the first Epistle to Timothe and all because you would multiply the nōbre of your likelyhodes For they charged the ministers by that place of dissolutenes and losenes of lyfe and corruption of manners and we alledge it to proue that they should be able to teache and instruct against the dumbe ministery that is abrode But that which followeth vttereth not only great vntruth and falsification of the author but sheweth a minde desirous to slaunder and sory as it seemeth that those whych you so greeuously discredite are no liker the Anabaptists then they be I will sette downe the wordes as they are wrytten in the. 102. leafe that it may appeare howe faithfully you haue dealt Libere enim dicunt concionatores qui stipendium accipiunt non esse veros Dei ministros neque posse docere veritatem sed esse ventris ministros qui otiose accipiant ingentia stipendia ex illis rebus que simulachris immolate fuerunt ex diuitiis splendide luxuriose viuant cum tamen Christus dixit gratis accepistis gratis date prohibuit duas tunicas peram pecuniam habere Preterea Paulum aiunt manibus suis laborasse mandasse reliquis vt idem faciant itaque concludunt nulla debere stipendia habere sui officii sed laborare gratis ministrare quiahoc non faciunt non posse ipsos veritatem docere They say freely speaking of the Anabaptists that the preachers whych take stipends can not be the true ministers of God nor teache the truthe but are ministers of the belly whych to liue idlely take great stipendes of those things whych were offered to images and doe of their riches liue gorgeously and riotously when notwithstanding Christe sayde ye haue receiued freely geue freely and for bad them to haue two coates or a scrip or money Besides that they say that Paule laboured with hys owne handes and gaue commaundement to the rest of the ministers that they should do so and therefore they conclude that they should haue no stipende for their office but laboure and minister for nought and because they doe not so they can not teache the truthe Nowe let all men iudge whether it be one thing to say that they ought not to haue stipends that labor not or to say as the Anabaptists sayd that it was not lawfull to haue any stipende or to say they coulde not teach truely because they had great liuings or because they had any liuings at all Although I neuer red nor heard any of those that you meane saye that those whych had great stipends and liuings could not preach truely It may be that diuers haue sayd that it were meete the ministers should be content wyth competent stipends and that the ouerplus of that myght go to the supply of the wants of other ministers liuings and to the maintenance
him that inueigheth against any pastor without good cause beare the punishment as for inueighing against heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and suche ambition and tiranny as beareth the sway in diuers Ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased then God be offended To the. 16. VVe stay our selues wythin the bonds of the word of God we profes our selues to be of the nombre of those whych should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and whych labor that the image of God may be daily renewed in vs not only in holynes of life but also in * knowledge of the truthe of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not ben many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truthe and therefore practised and in our churche also haue bene some yeares debated To the. 17. If we defende no falshoode or inconuenient thing we can not be counted stubborne or wilfull whereof we offer to be tried by the indifferent reader For waiwardnes and inhumanitie we thincke it a fault as we esteme godly societie and affabilitie to be commendable and what is our behauior herein we likewise referre to their iudgementes wyth whome we are conuersant and haue to doe wyth being misseiudged and vntruly condemned of you we iudge nor condemne no man their vices we condemne so farre forth as the listes of our vocation doe permit vs. To the. 18. We allowe of common weales as without which the church can not long continue we speake not against ciuill gouernment nor yet against ecclesiastical further then the same is an enemy to the gouernment that God hath instituted To the. 19. If we geue honor and reuerence to none let vs not only haue none again but let vs be had as those that are vnworthy to liue amongst men I feare there be of those whych are your fauourers Ecclesiasticall persons that if they shuld meete wyth my Lord Mayor of London would straine curtesye whether he or they should put of the cap first We geue the titles of Maiestie to the Queene our soueraigne of grace to Duke and Duches of honor to those whych are in honoure and so to euery one according to their estate If we misse it is not because we are not willing but because we knowe not alwayes what pertaineth vnto them and then our faulte is pardonable For answearing churlishly it is answeared before in the seuenth Article To the. 20. VVith acknowledging of our manifold wants and ignorances we dout not also to take vpon vs with thanks geuing that knowledge which God hath geuen to euery of vs according to the measure of fayth we seke not to please oure selues but the Lord and our brethren yea all men in that whych is good VVe reuerence other mens gifts so as we thinke the contempt of them redoundeth to the giuer Therfore although the common infection be in vs yet we hope pride doth not * raigne in our mortall bodyes To the. 21. VVe hold that it is no ministers part to chuse his owne place where he will preach but to tary vntill he be chosen of others Likewyse that he insinuate not hym selfe but abide a lawfull calling and therfore thys can not agree to vs but to those rather whych content themselues wyth a rouing and wandering mynistery and defend the ministers owne presenting and offering him selfe or euer he be called To the. 22. and. 23. I answer as to the fifthe and touching the. 23. refer the reader to a further answer in that place where occasion is offered to speake of it againe To the. 24. So farre forth as we may for the infirmities wherwyth we are enclosed we endeuor to adorne the doctrine of the gospell whych we profes we seeke not the admiration of men if God do geue that we haue honest report we thyncke we ought to maintaine that to the glory of God and aduancement of the gospel what is our straightnes of life any other then is required in all christians we bryng in I am sure no Monachisme or Anchorisme we eate and drynke as other men we liue as other men we are apparelled as other men we lye as other men we vse those honest recreations that other men doe and we thincke there is no good thing or commodity of life in the world but that in sobriety we may be partakers of so farre as our degree and calling will suffer vs as God maketh vs able to haue it For the hipocrisy that you so often charge vs wyth the day shall try it If any man ioyne wych vs with minde to contende it is against our will notwithstanding we knowe none and what great stirrers and contenders they be whych fauor thys cause let all men iudge To the two next sections Do you thincke to mocke the worlde so that when you haue so vniustly so hainously accused you may wipe your mouth and say as you did before that you will not accuse any and as now that you will leaue the application Is not this to accuse to say that the authors of the Admonition doe almost plainly professe Anabaptisme is not thys to apply to say that they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the fornamed practises and qualities You would faine strike vs but you would do it in the night when no man should see you and yet if you haue to do against Anabaptists you neede not feare to proclaime your warre against them You haue a glorious cause you shall haue a certaine victorye I dare promisse you that you shall haue all the estates and orders of this realme to clappe their handes and sing your epinicia and triumphant songs But that you would conuey your sting so priuely and hissingly as the Adder doth it carieth with it a suspition of an euill conscience and of a worse cause then you make the world beleeue you haue From moreouer c. vnto To conclude Now you cary vs from the Anabaptists in Europe vnto the Donatists in Affrike you wil paint vs with their coloures but you want the oyle of truth or likelyhode of truth to cause your colours to cleaue to endure The Lord be praised that your breath although it be very ranke yet it is not so strong that it is able either to turn vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shal desire the reader to loke Theod. lib. 4. De fabulis haereticorum and Augustine ad quod vult Deum and in his first and second bokes against Petilians letters where he shall finde of these heretikes that by comparing thē wyth these to whom M. Doctor likeneth thē the smoke of this accusation might the better appeare for these slanders are not worth the answering To this diuision from the churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answeared They taught that there were no true churches but in Affrica
sette downe hys iudgement before needed not to haue repeated it here agayne But the Greeke wordes you say catakyrieuousin kai catexousiazousin doe signifie to rule wyth oppression and why may not I saye that thys preposition cata doth not signifie heere a peruersnesse of rule but an absolutenesse and a full power and iurisdiction as catamathein catalambanein is not to learne or to perceyue euilly and peruersly but to learne exactly and to perceiue throughly and perfectly but what neede we to followe coniectures in so playne a matter when as Saint Luke vseth the simple wordes without any composition of exousiazein Kai Kyrieuein doe you not perceyue that the preposition wherein you put so great confidēce deceiueth you besides the manifest vntruth you commit in saying that all three Euangelistes haue katexousiazousin katakyrieuousin Furthermore you say that our sauioure Christ sayeth not that no man shall be great amongst them but he that desireth to be great amongst them He had sayd so before when he had sayd it shall not be so amongst you and therefore needed not to repeate it and yet an other Euangelist sayeth not he that desireth to be great but let the greatest among you be as the least VVherby he doth not reprehend only the desire of being great but will not haue them to be one aboue an other To the last reason Last of all you conclude that our sauiour Christ in the 20. of Mathew reproueth the ambition of the sonnes of zebede and in the 22. of S. Luke all the rest of the Apostles I graunte you he dothe so and that coulde not be done better then in tellyng them that they desired things not meete for them and which woulde not stande with their calling And if as you say the ambition only was reprehended and the desire of rule to oppresse others wyth the answere you attribute to our sauioure is not so fitte For they myght haue replyed and sayde that he forbad tyrannicall rule and oppression of their inferioures but they desired that which was a moderate and well ruled gouernment And semeth it vnto you a probable thing that S. Luke meaneth tyrantes and oppressors when as he sayth they are called beneficiall or gracious Lordes men doe not vse to call oppressors liberall or bountifull Lordes Neyther is it to be thought of all the Apostles that they desired rule one ouer an other to the ende that they would vse crueltie or tyrannie or oppression one ouer an other for that were to doe them great iniurie Besides that it is sayde that the rest of the disciples disdayned at the two brethren whyche they would not haue done if they had had any purpose or mynde to haue oppressed them For then they would haue contemned them rather then haue disdayned them if they had broken out into suche grose faultes For Aristotle teacheth that nemesis which is the same that aganactesis is the verbe whereof the Euangelist vseth is agaynst those that are supposed of them that beare the disdayne to be lifted vp higher and into better estate then they are worthy of whych agreeth wyth that interpretation whyche I haue alleaged and can not agree wyth the other whych you set downe For who speaking properly would speake after thys sort The residue of the Apostles disdayned at the two brethren or thought them vnworthy that they should beare tyrannicall rule ouer them To the section that beginneth touching the place in 23. of Mathew and so vntill howe aptly Concerning the exposition and sence of that place I agree with you and suppose that it is quoted of the authors of the admonition rather to note the ambition of certayne which gape greedely at these byshopprickes which we haue to the ende they mighte be saluted by the name of Lordes and honoures then to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer an other And therefore although these places be agaynst no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men yet as they are aptly alledged against the bishop of Rome the one against his estate and authoritie simply the other agaynst hys tyrannie and euill vsage of hym selfe in that authoritie so it may be aptly alleaged agaynst any other which shall fall into the like fault of the byshop of Rome The purenesse that we boast of is the innocencie of our sauioure Christ who shall couer all our vnpurenesse not impute it vnto vs And for so much as fayth * purifyeth the hart we doubt not but God of his goodnes hath begon our sanctification and hope that he will make an ende of it euen vntill the day of our Lord Iesus Albeit we holde dyuers poyntes more purely then they doe which impugne them yet I know none that by comparison hath eyther sayd or written that all those that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy and more vnblameable in life then any of those that thinke otherwise If we say that in those poynts which we holde from them we thinke soundlier then they doe we are ready to proue it If we say also that we lyue not so offensiuely to the world commonly by getting so many lyuinges into our handes as would finde foure or fiue good learned able ministers all the worlde will beare vs witnes Other purenes we take not vpon vs And therefore as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed Whereas you say that they are Puritanes which suppose the church which they haue deuised to be without all impuritie if you meane without sinne you doe notably slaunder them and it is already answered If you meane that those are Puritanes or Catharans which do set forth a true and perfect patern or platforme of reforming the church then the marke of thys heresy reacheth vnto those which made the booke of common prayer which you say is a perfect and absolute rule to gouerne this church wherein nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer nor too much As for the Catharans which were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians I know no suche opynion they had they whome you charge are as farre from their corruption as you be An answere to that which is contayned in the. 20. 21. and 22. page vntill Now if eyther godly Councels YOu geue occasion of suspition that your end will be skarce good which haue made so euill a beginning For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition that nothing should be placed in the Church but that God hath in hys word commaunded as though the wordes were not playne enough you wil geue them some light by your exposition And what is that you answere that it is as much as though they would say nothing is to be tollerated in the church of Christe touching eyther doctryne order ceremonies disciplyne or gouernment except it be expressed in the word of god Is thys to interprete is it all one to say nothing
must be placed in the church and nothing must be tollerated in the church he hath but small iudgemēt that can not tel that certaine things may be tollerated and borne with for a time which if they were to be sette in and placed could not be done without the great fault of them that shuld place them Againe are these of lyke waight except it be commaunded in the worde of God and except it be expressed in the word of God Many things are both commaunded and forbidden of which there is no expresse mention in the word which are as necessarily to be followed or auoided as those wherof expresse mētion is made Therfore vnlesse your waightes be truer if I coulde let it you should waighe none of my wordes Hereupon you conclude that their arguments taken ab authoritate negatiue proue nothing When the question is of the authoritie of a man in deede it neither holdeth affirmatiuely nor negatiuely For as it is no good argument to say it is not true because Aristotle or Plato sayde it not so is it not to saye it is true because they sayde so The reason whereof is because the infirmitie of man can neither attaine to the perfection of any thing wherby he might speake all thinges that are to be spoken of it neyther yet bee free from erroure in those thinges which he speaketh or geueth out and therfore thys argument neyther affirmatiuely nor negatiuely compelleth the hearer But only induceth hym to some liking or misliking of that for which it is brought is rather for an oratour to perswade the simpler sort thē for a disputer to enforce him that is learned But for so muche as the Lord God determyning to set before our eyes a perfecte fourme of hys church is both able to doe it and hath done it a man may reason bothe wayes necessarily The Lorde hathe commaunded it shoulde be in hy◠churche therefore it must And of the other side he hath not commaunded therefore it must not be And it is not harde to shewe that the Prophetes haue so reasoned negatiuely As when in the person of the Lord the Prophet sayth * wherof I haue not spoken and which neuer entred into my heart and as where he condemneth them * because they haue not asked counsell at the mouthe of the Lorde But you say that in matters of faythe and necessary to saluation it holdeth which thinges you oppose afterwardes and set agaynst matters of ceremonies orders discyplyne and gouernment as though matters of dysciplyne and kynde of gouernment were not matters necessary to saluation and of faythe The case which you put whether the byshop of Rome be head of the church is a matter that concerneth the gouernment and the kynde of gouernment of the church and the same is a matter that toucheth fayth and that standeth vpon our saluation Excommunication and other censures of the church which are forerunners vnto excommunication are matters of dysciplyne and the same are also of faythe and of saluation The sacramentes of the Lorde hys supper and of baptisme are ceremonies and are matters of faythe and necessary to saluation And therefore you which distinguishe betweene these and saye that the former that is matters of faythe and necessarye to saluation may not be tollerated in the church vnlesse they be expresly contayned in the worde of God or manyfestly gathered But that these later which are ceremonies order disciplyne gouernment in the church may not be receiued agaynst the word of God and consequently receiued if there be no word agaynst them although there be none for them you I say distinguishing or dyuiding after thys sorte do proue your selfe to be as euill a deuyder as you shewed your selfe before an expounder for thys is to breake in peeces and not to deuide And it is no small iniurie which you doe vnto the word of God to pinne it in so narow roume as that it should be able to direct vs but in the principall poyntes of our relygion or as though the substance of religion or some rude and vnfashioned matter of building of the church were vttered in them those things were left out that should pertayne to the fourme and fashion of it or as if there were in the scriptures onely to couer the churches nakednes and not also chaines and bracelettes and rings and other iewels to adorne hir and set hir out or that to conclude there were sufficient to quench hir thirst kil hir honger but not to minister vnto hir a more liberall and as it were a more delicious and daintie diet These things you seeme to say when you say that matter 's necessary to saluation and of fayth are contayned in the scripture especially when you appose these things to ceremonies order dysciplyne and gouernement And if you meane by matters of fayth and necessary to saluation those without which a man cannot be saued then the doctrine that teacheth there is no free will or prayer for the dead is not within your compasse For I doubt not but dyuers of the fathers of the Greke church which were great patrons of free wil at lest as their wordes pretende are saued holding the foundation of the fayth which is Christ The lyke might be sayd of a nomber of other as necessary doctrines wherein men being nusled haue notwithstanding bene saued Therefore seeing that the poynt of the question lyeth chiefely in this distinction it had bene good that you had spoken more certainely and properly of these things But to the ende it may appeare that this speach of youres doth something take vp shrinke the armes of the scripture which otherwise are so long large I saye that the word of God contayneth the direction of all things pertayning to the church yea of what soeuer things can fall into any part of mans life For so Salomon sayth in the second chapter of the Prouerbes My sonne if thou receiue my wordes and hyde my preceptes c. Then thou shalt vnderstande iustice and iudgement and equitie and euery good way S. Paul sayth that whether we eate or drynke or whatsoeuer we do we must do it to the glory of god But no man can gloryfy God in any thing but by obedience and there is no obedience but in respect of the commaundement and word of God therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions And that which S. Paul sayd of meates and drinkes that they are sanctifyed vnto vs by the word of God the same is to be vnderstanded of all thinges else whatsoeuer we haue the vse of But the place of S. Paul is of all other most cleare where speaking of those things which are called indifferent in the ende he concludeth that whatsoeuer is not of fayth is sinne but fayth is not but in respecte of the word of God therfore whatsoeuer is not done by the word of God is sinne And if any will say
that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perswasion that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we perswade and assure our selues that we do well but whereas we haue the word of God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto doth geue to vnderstād from whence the assured persuasion doth spring Whereupon it falleth out the forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the church and which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of god Not that we say as you charge vs in these words that no ceremonie c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church it is not lawfull to doe what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are geuen to be the squire whereby those should be squared out Which rules I will here set downe as those which I would haue as well al orders ceremonies of the church framed by as by the which I wil be content that all those orders ceremonies which are now in question whether they be good conuenient or no should be tried examined by And they are those rules which Paule gaue in such cases as are not particularly mētioned of in scripture The first that they offend not any especially the Church of God. The second is that which you cite also out of Paul that all be done in order and comclynes The thirde that all be done to edifying The last that they be done to the glory of God. So that you see that those things which you recken vp of the houre time day of prayer c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture yet they are not left to any to order at their pleasure or so that they be not agaynst the worde of God but euen by and according to the word of God they must be established and those alone to be taken which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited And so it is brought to passe which you thinke a great absurdity that al things in the church should be appoynted according to the word of god Wherby it likewise appeareth that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church because they are of the nature of those which are varyed by times places persons other circumstances so could not at once be set down established for euer yet so left to the order of the church as that it do nothing agaynst the rules aforsayde But how doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the church therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archbishop to alter the ministerie the is appointed by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a deacon wher he might exercise his charge of prouiding for the pore to abrogate cleane both name office of the elder with other more how I say doth it follow the because the church hath power to order certaine things therfore it hath power to do so of these which God hath ordayned and established of the which there is no tyme nor place nor person nor any other circumstance which can cause any alteration or chaunge Which thing shall better appeare both in the discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certayne reasons why there should be other gouernmēt now then was in the tyme of the apostles But whyle you goe about to seme to say much rake vp a great nomber of thinges you haue made very euill mestin and you haue put in one thinges which are not paires nor matches Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put vppe I will not stand to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the resurrection of our sauiour Christ and so the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes sabboth was the day wherein the world was finished and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was your iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appoynted no discipline nor correction for suche as shall contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God VVhat churche discipline would you haue other then admonions reprehensions and if these will not profitte excommunication and are they not appoynted of our sauioure Christe There are also ciuill punishments and punishmentes of the body likewise appoynted by the word of God in diuers places in Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods and not to the Lorde alone shall dye the death And in Deutcronomie Thou shalt burne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may heare learne and not dare do the like The execution of thys law appeareth in the Chro. by king Aza who made a law that all those that did not seke the Lord shuld be kilde And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contēners of the word prayers There are other for such as neglect the worde which are according to the quantitie of the fault so that whether you meane ciuil or ecclesiasticall correction the scripture hath defined of them both I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common translation calleth Ezra of chaires in S. Mathew where by the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching Of sitting at the communion which the Euangelist noteth to haue bene done of our Sauioure Christ with his disciples which examples are not to be lightly chaunged and vppon many occasions But this I can not omitte that you make it an indifferent thing to preache the word of God in churches or in houses that is to say priuately or publikely For what better interpretation can I haue then of your owne wordes which say by and by after of Baptisme that it is at the order of the church to make it priuate or publike For if it be in the power of the church to order that Baptisme may be ministred at the house of euery priuate person it is also in her power to ordayne that the worde be preached also priuately And then where is that which Salomon sayth that wysdom cryeth openly in the streates and at the corners of the stretes where
many meete and where be the examples of the olde church which had besydes the temple at Ierusalem erected vppe synagogues in euery towne to heare the worde of God and mynister the cyrcumcysion what is become of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ whych * wylled his discyples that they should preache openly and vpon the house toppes that which they heard in the eare of hym and secreately and howe doe we obserue the example of our sauyour Christ who to delyuer hys doctryne from all suspytion of tumultes and other dysorders sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the synagogues albeit the same were very daungerous vnto hym the example of the * Apostles that dyd the same For as for the tyme of persecution when the church dare not nor is not meete that it should shewe it selfe to the ennemy no not then is the word of God nor the sacraments priuately preached or ministred neyther yet ought to be For althoughe they be done in the house of priuate man yet because they are ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation there is neyther priuate preaching nor priuate baptisme For like as where so euer the Queenes maiestie lyeth there is the Courte althoughe it be in a Gentleman hys house so wheresoeuer the churche meeteth that place is not to be holden priuate as touching the prayers preachings and sacraments that shal be there ministred So that I denye vnto you that the churche hathe power to ordaine at her pleasure whether preaching or ministring of sacramentes should be priuate or publicke when they ought not to be but where the church is and the church ought not to assemble if it be not letted by persecution but in open places And when it is driuen from them those places where it gathereth it selfe togither although they be otherwise priuate yet are they for the time that the churches doe there assemble and for respect of the worde and sacraments that are there ministred in the presence of the church publike places And so you see those whome you charge slaunderously wyth conuenticles are faine to glase vp the windowes that you open to secreate and priuate conuenticles The Answere from Nowe if either godly councels vnto I trust M. Caluins iudgement will weigh HEere are brought in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and councels as dumme persons in the stage only to make a shewe and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strength of hys cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustin whych was a great time after them And if the godly councels coulde haue helped heere it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of mē the credite of many is better then of one and that thys is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is loked vnto in a matter of debate more then theirs of the common sorte so the iudgement of a councell where many learned men be gathered together caryeth more likelyhode of truthe wyth it then the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall councell much more then if it be a generall and therfore you do your cause great iniurie if you could alledge them and do not Thys is once to be obserued of the reader throughout your whole boke that you haue well prouided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures for that onles it be in one or two poynts we heare continually instead of Esay and Ieremy S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles S. Augustin and S. Ambrose kai to en te phake myron Dionysius Areopagita Clement c. And therfore I can not tell wyth what face we can call the papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures who in the controuersies whych rise amongst our selues flie so farre from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if thys be a sufficient proofe of things to say suche a Doctor sayde so suche a councell decreed so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faith may be shaken And therfore because you haue no proofe in the worde of God we comfort our selues assured that for so muche as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things which are in question be not in heauen that they wil fall and come to the ground from whence they were taken Nowe it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earthe and that they are of men and not of God The answearer goeth about to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtained yet he may well know that it is no good argument to proue that they are good For as the best earth bringeth forth weedes so do the best men bring forth lies and errors But let vs heare what is brought that if thys visarde and shewe of truthe be taken away all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against any thing whych we hold for thys that the church may haue thyngs not expressed in the scripture is not againste that it oughte to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the scripture whych are not by plaine termes expressed in the scripture But against you it maketh muche ouerturneth all your building in this boke For if in those things whych are not expressed in the scripture that is to be obserued of the Church whych is the custome of the people of God and decree of oure forefathers then howe can these things be varyed according to time place persons whych you say should be when as that is to be retained which the people of God hath vsed the decrees of the forefathers haue ordained And thē also how can we do safelier then to folow the apostles customes and the churches in their time which we are sure are our for fathers the people of god Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I wil not enter now to discus whether it were wel done to fast in al places according to the custome of the place
You oppose Amb. Aug. I could oppose Ignatius and Tertullian wherof the one saith it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other the it is to kil the Lord this is the inconuenience that cometh of such vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose sayth so therfore it is true And although Amb. and Aug. being straungers and priuate men at Rome wold haue so done yet it foloweth not that if they had ben citizens ministers there y they wold haue don it if they had don so to yet it foloweth not but they would haue spoken against the appoyntment of dayes nomothesian of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of that which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting whē as the one sayth it was remedy or reward to fast other dayes but in Lent not to fast was sinne and the other asketh what saluation we can obtaine if we blot not our sinnes by fasting seing that the scripture sayth the fasting almes doth deliuer from sin therfore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting Which I therfore recite because you would seme by Aug. Ambrose iudgements to alow of the weekely and commanded fasts What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium 118. I can not tell you charge the authors of the admonition to be conspired with the papistes I will not charge you so but wil thinke better of you vntil the contrary do more appeare But I appeale to the iudgement of all men if this be not to bring in popery again to allow of s Aug. saying wherin he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passion c. is either of some generall councel or of the Apostles commaūded decreed wherby a gate is opē vnto the papists to bring in vnder the coloure of traditions all their beggery whatsoeuer For you plainly confirme that there is some thing necessary to be obserued which is not contained any wayes in the scripture For to keepe those holy dayes is not contained in the scripture neither can be concluded of any part therof and yet they are necessary to be kept if they be commaunded of the Apostles Therefore in your opinion some thing is necessary to be kept which is not contained in the scriptures nor can not be concluded of them And if you say that S. Aug. leaueth it in dout whether it were the Apostles tradition statute or a generall councels then you bring vs yet to a worse point that we can not be assured of the which is necessary for vs to knowe that is whether the Apostles did ordaine that these dayes should be kept as holy dayes or the coūcels And that it is S. Augustins meaning to father such like things of the Apostles it maye appeare by that whych he wryteth saying There are many things whych the whole churche holdeth and therfore are well beleued to be commaunded of the Apostles although they be not founde wrytten If thys iudgement of s Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde then there be some things commaunded of God which are not in the scriptures therfore there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures wherby we may be saued For al the commaundements of God of the apostles are nedeful for our saluation And marke I pray you whether your affections cary you before you sayd that the Lords day which was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time may be chaūged as the place and houre of prayer but the day of the passion resurrection c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the apostles or at least put vpon vs a necessity of keping of them least haply in breaking of them we might breake the Apostles decree for you make it to lie betweene the councels and the apostles which of them decreed this And do you not perceiue how you stil reason against your self for if the church haue had so great regard to that which the apostles did in their times that they kept those things which are not wryttē and therfore are doutfull whether euer they vsed them or no how much more should we hold our selues to these things whych are wrytten that they did and of the whych we are assured As touching the obseruation of these holy dayes I will refer the reader vnto an other place where occasion is geuen againe to speake of them As for that rule y he geueth when he sayth whatsoeuer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receiue them with hys owne interpretation whych he hath afterward in 119. epist. ad Ianuarium which is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules whych you saye are worthye to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whit for I knowe no man that euer denyed but that the churche may in suche things as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules whych I haue before alledged out of S. Paule And as for the second of the three rules I can not at any hand allow it For when all christianitie was ouer runne wyth Poperie thyngs were vniuersally obserued whych to kepe were mere wickednes and thys strengtheneth the papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not enough because it must be grounded by the scripture and that it is wicked to geue such authority to any decree of men that a man should not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he ment nothing les For affirming that suche thyngs are the Apostles commaundements hys meaning was that they should be wythout all exception receiued and absolutely How much better is it that we take heede to the words of the Apostle then either to S. Augustins or yours whych sayth that if he or an angel from heauen should preach any other gospell then that whych he had preached that they should hold hym accursed he sayth not any contrary or repugnant doctrine but any other gospell But tel me why passed you by that in Augustin which he * wryteth to Iunuarie that those thyngs whych are not contained in the scripture nor decreed of coūcelles nor confirmed by generall customes but are varied by the manners of regions and of men vpon occasion offered ought to be cutte of although they seeme not to be against faith because they pres wyth seruile burdens the religion whych Christ would haue free Thys sentence belike was to hotte for you you coulde not cary it The rest whose names you recite whych you saye you leaue of for breuitie sake I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider wherfore they be left out seeing that Augustin in whom you put so great trust answereth so little to your expectation
Thys is certaine that breuitie whych you pretend was in small commendation with you whych make so often repetitions stuffe in diuers sentences of Doctors and wryters to proue things that no man denyeth translate whole leaues to so small purpose vpon so light occasions make so often digressions sometimes against the vnlernednes sometimes against the malice sometimes against the intemperancie of speach of the authors of the admonition and euery hand while pulling out the sworde vpon them and throughout the whole boke sporting your selfe wyth the quotations in the margent so that if all these where taken out of your boke as winde out of a bladder we should haue had it in a narow roume whych is thus swelled into such a volume and in stead of a boke of .ij. s. we should haue had a pamfiet of two pence And whereas you say that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the libell but for the wise discrete humble and learned to them also I leaue it to consider vpon that whych is alledged by me First howe lyke a diuine it is to seeke for rules in the Doctors to measure the making of ceremonies by whych you mighte haue had in the scriptures there at the riuers heere at the fountaine vncerten there whych heere are certen there in parte false which are heere altogither true then to howe little purpose they serue you and last of all howe they make against you An answer to the ende of the. 29. page beginning at the. 25. at But I trust M. Caluins iudgement VVHy should you trust that M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them if they be Anabaptists as you accuse them if they be Donatists if Catharists if conspired wyth the Papistes howe can you thinke that they will so easely rest in M. Caluins iudgement whych hated and confuted all Anabaptisme Donatisme Catharisme and Papisme But it is true whych the prouerbe sayth memorem c. he that will speake an vntruthe had neede haue a good memorye and thys is the force of the truthe in the conscience of man that although he suppres it and pretend the contrary yet at vnwares it stealeth out For what greater testimonye coulde you haue geuen of them that they hate all those heresies which you lay to their charge then to say that you trust M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them Now in dede that you be not deceiued we receiue M. Caluin and weigh of him as of the notablest instrumēt that the Lord hath stirred vp for the purging of his churches and of the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures whych hath bene since the Apostles times And yet we do not so read his works that we beleeue any thyng to be true because he sayeth it but so farre as we can esteme that that whych he sayth dothe agree wyth the canonicall scriptures But what gather you out of M. Caluin First that all necessary thyngs to saluation are contained in the scripture who denyeth it In the second collection where you would geue to vnderstande that ceremonies and externall discipline are not prescribed particularly by the worde of God and therfore left to the order of the church you must vnderstande that all externall discipline is not left to the order of the churche being particularly prescribed in the scriptures no more then all ceremonies are left to the order of the church as the sacraments of baptisme and the supper of the Lord wheras vpon the indefinite speaking of M. Caluin saying ceremonies and externall discipline wythout adding all or some you goe about subtelly to make men beleeue that M. Caluin had placed the whole external discipline in the power and arbitrement of the churche For if all externall discipline were arbitrarie and in the choise of the church Excommunication also whych is a part of it might be cast away which I thinke you will not say But if that M. Caluin were aliue to heare hys sentences racked and wrythen to establishe those thyngs whych he stroue so mightely to ouerthrow and to ouerthrow those things that he laboured so sore to establishe what might he say and the iniurie which is done to him is nothing les because he is deade Concerning all the rest of your collections I haue not lightly knowne a man which taketh so much paine with so small gaine and which soweth his sede in the sea wherof there wil neuer rise encrease For I know none that euer denied those things vnles peraduenture you would make the reader beleeue that al those be contentions which moue any controuersy of things which they iudge to be amis and thē it is answered before And now I answer further that they that moue to reformation of things are no more to be blamed as authors of contention then the Phisition which geueth a purgation is to be blamed for the rumbling and stirre in the belly and other disquietnes of the body which should not haue bene if the euil humors and naughty disposition of it had not caused or procured thys purgation Wheras you conclude that these contentions woulde be sone ended if M. Caluins wordes were noted heere we will ioyne with you and will not refuse the iudgement of M. Caluin in any matter that we haue in controuersy with you Which I speake not therfore because I would call the decision of controuersies to men and their words which pertaine only to God and to his worde but because I know hys iudgement in these things to be cleane against you and especially for that you would beare men in hand that M. Caluin is on your side and against vs And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late wryters by citing of whom you wold geue to vnderstand that they are against vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter end of this boke their seuerall iudgements of the most of these things whych are in controuersy whereby it may appeare that if they haue spoken one word against vs they haue spoken two for vs And wheras they haue wrytten as it is sayde and alleaged in their priuate letters to their freendes againste some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their workes published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So y if they wrote any such thyngs they shall be founde not so much to haue dissented from vs as from them selues and therefore we appeale from them selues vnto them selues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike wrytings as more autenticall You labor still in the fire that is vnprofitably to bring M. Bucer hys Epistle to proue that the church may order things wherof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neither is thys saying that all things are to be done in the churche according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto
of the Acces sheweth that S. Peter would not take vpon him to present two as sitte for the place which was voyde but sayth they dyd present or sette vp whereby appeareth that the examynation of their habilitie was committed to manye The same appeareth also in the sixte of the Actes when as the Apostles wil the church wherin there were so excellent personages to looke out seuen full of the holy ghost and wisdome c. they doe not there permit the dyscerning of their wisdome and other giftes to one but to many Secondarely I cannot commend it for that that one man is the Archdeacon which must examyne the pastors and iudge of their sufficiencie For what is the Archdeacon is he not a Deacon for he being the cheefe Deacon must needes be also a Deacon hym selfe And therfore although the cheefe deacon yet inferioure to any of the pastoures and the * giftes which are required in hym inferioure to those which are required in the pastoure And to make him iudge of the aptnesse ablenesse of the pastoure is to make the inferioure in giftes iudge of the superioure he that hath by hys calling lesse giftes iudge of his which hath by his calling greater giftes which is nothing else then to appoynt him that hath but one eye to ouersee hys sight that hath two Thirdly I mistyke the booke because it permitteth that the Bishop may admit the minister vpon the credite and report of the Archdeacon vpon his examination if there be no oppositiō of the people which appeareth by these words in the booke whereas to the Archdeacon saying thus Reuerend father in god I present vnto you these persons to be made priestes c. The Byshop answereth ¶ Take heede that the persons whome you present vnto vs be apt and meete for their godly conuersacion to exercise their ministerie duely to the honour of God and edifying of his church And thereupon I thinke it commeth that the Archdeacon is called the eye of the Byshop But why doth not he himselfe take heede vnto it with what conscience can he admit a Minister of whose fitnesse he knoweth not but vpon the credit of an other although he were otherwise very fitte where can he haue that full perswasion that he doth well vpon the report of others when the report of his life and learning is made but of one And therefore * S. Paul ordayned that the same should be the ordeyners and the examyners and not to hang vpon the fayth or report of an other man in thinges that are so waightie and whereof he may him selfe take notice Fourthly for that albeit the church is demaunded whether it haue any thing to obiect yet that church whereof he is to be pastor which it skilleth especially that he be fitte is not demaunded and which would because it standeth them vpon inquire dyligently of hym Agayne they are demaunded which can obiect nothing of his insufficiencie when for the most part they neuer see nor heard of before as one that came of one day vnto the towne and goeth away the next Further they haue no reasonable space geuen them wherein they may inquire or hearken out of hys honest conuersation and haue some experyence of hys soundnesse in teaching and discretion and iudgement to rule hys flocke But if as sone as euer it be sayde to those that are straungers that they should obiect agaynst them no mā stand forth to obiect any thing forthwith he is made a mynister And these are those things wherein I thinke the booke of ordering Mynisters faultie touching the tryall and examynation of the mynisters whiche selfe same thinges are lykewyse of the tryall of the Deacon And so you see that besydes the faultes of those that execute the lawe that there bee faultes in the lawes themselues and therefore the cause is truely assygned althoughe you see it not And what meane you still to vse thys fyghting wyth your owne shadow for where are the wordes or what be they that condemne all the Ministers for some that say all the Ministers are vnlawfully admitted for some or that there is none good because some are badde If there be no such wordes as cary with them any suche sense then you do wrong to your brethren If there be wordes that declare the cleane contrary then all men see what you be which althoughe you often faulte in yet I am lothe so often to name and charge you wyth it When it is sayd that learned and vnlearned are receyued it is euydent that they condemne not all The Lord blesse and encrease an hundreth folde the godly wise learned graue ministers of thys churche And because these wordes seeme to rocke vs a sleepe and to bring vs into forgetfulnesse of the great ruines desolations of the Churche I muste tell you that two thousande able and suffycient mynisters which preache and feede dyligently and carefully the flocke of Christ were hard to be founde in thys Churche which haue bene notwithstanding founde in the Church of Fraunce by the estimation of those which know the estate euen vnder the tyme of the crosse where there were no such helpes of Magistrates and appoynted stypendes as God be praysed we haue And agayne you are to be put in mynde that a great number of those were bredde in king Edwardes dayes so that I feare me a man neede no great Arithmatike to counte the numbers of such able ministers as the late yeares haue brought forth And yet I am well assured that if the ministerie were reformed and worthy men were sought for there are great nombers of zelous and learned men that would lay their handes to serue thys kynde of building by the ministerie For besydes numbers that the Vniuersities would yelde which sigh for the repayring of the decayes of the church to helpe forwarde so great a worke the Innes of Courte and other the gentrie of the realme Galene and Iustinian would bryng theyr tenthes and as it were pay their shot in this reckening It is not denied but the testimonie that a noble man which professeth the truth doth geue ought to be weighed accordyng to hys degree place which he hath in the common wealth but where you thinke that the testimonie of one wise man learned and godly is sufficient warrant to proceede to an election of a Minister you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paul vsed who when he admytted Tymothe into hys company to be a companyon in hys iourney to cutte of all occasion of euill speche receyued hym not * but vpon commendation of the brethren both in Lystra and I conyum You know they ment by the basest of the people such as gaue but one leape out of the shoppe into the Church as sodenly are chaunged out of a seruing mans coate into a mynisters cloke making for the most part the ministerie their last refuge c. And seeing that besydes the words be playne the dayly
experience teacheth it you neede not make it so strange as though you knew not what they meant To the next section beginning in the. 38. page WHat ought to be generall if thys ought not to put the minister that hathe bene an idolater from hys mynisterie is it not a commaūdement of God and geuen not of one Leuite or two but of all those that went backe not at one tyme but at others also when the like occasion was geuen as appeareth in the booke of Kings where all the priestes of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places were not suffered to come to the altare in Ierusalem Doth not S. Paul make smaller causes of deposing from the mynistery then idolatrie for after he hath described what manner of men the ministers should be and deacons he addeth And being tryed let them execute their functions as long as they remayne blamelesse I thinke if so be a man had bene knowne to be an adulterer although he repented him yet none that is well aduised would take him into the ministerie For if S. Paul reiect him that had ij wyues at once which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull and that was common amongst them and had preuayled throughout all the world how much les would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie which should be an adulterer and haue an other mans wyfe which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ and which is not so generall a mischeefe as that was Or would he suffer him to abyde in the ministerie which should commit such wickednes during his function lykewyse of a murtherer Now the sinne of Idolatry is greater more detestable then any of them in as much as pertayning to the first table it immediatly stayneth Gods honor and breaketh duetie to him vnto whom we more owe it without all comparison then to any mortall man And if S. Paul in the choyse of the widow to attende vpon the sicke of the church which was the lowest office in the church requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise honest and holy but such a one as hath led her whole life in all good workes and with commendation how much more is that to be obserued in the minister or byshop of the church that he be not only at the tyme of his choyse but all other times before such a one as hath lyued without any notable and open offence of those amongst whome he had his conuersation If I should stand with you whether Peter his forswearing that he knew not Christ were a greater fault then to go from the gospell to idolatrie and there in for some long space to continue as the Leuites dyd I shoulde trouble you For if a man sodenly and at a push for feare and to saue his life say and sweare he is no christian and the same day repent him of hys fault although it be a great and haynous cryme yet it seemeth not to be so great as his is which not only denyeth Christ in words but doth it also in deedes and worshippeth Antichrist and continueth in that worship not a day but moneths and yeares But I wil answere you that euen as our sauiour Christ called S. Paule in the heate of his persecution whē he was a blasphemer vnto the Apostleship so he hauing the law in his owne handes and making no lawes for him selfe but for vs might call S. Peter also to that function which had thrise denyed him But as it is not lawfull for vs to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paul by admitting those which are new conuerted hauing a contrary precept geuen that no * new plant or greene christian should be taken to the mynisterie So is it not lawfull to follow that example of our sauiour Christ the contrary being commaunded as I haue before alledged For albeit the examples of our sauiour Christ be to be followed of vs yet if there be commaundementes generall to the contrary then we must know that it is our partes to walke in the broade and beaten way as it were the common caussie of the commaundement rather then an outpathe of the example I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganisme to be bishop of Millaine for the great estimatiō credite he had amongst the people but besides that I haue shewed that suche thinges are vnlawfull being forbidden The errors and corrupt expounding of scriptures which are founde in his workes declare that it had bene more safe for the churche if by studie of the scriptures he hadde first bene a scholer of dyuinitie or euer he hadde beene made doctor There may be more examples shewed out of that which you call the prymitiue churche to the contrary of that which you say For when they vsed often tymes agaynste those that hadde so falne suche seueritie in deede extreme and excessiue that they were neuer after vntill their deathes admitted to the Lordes table I leaue to you to thinke whether they woulde then suffer any suche to execute the function of the ministerie Besides that S. Cyprian hath also a speciall treatise of thys that those that haue sacrificed to idolles should not be permitted any more to minister in the church But you aske what they say to M. Luther Bucer Crannier Latimer Ridley I pray you when dyd these excellent personages euer slide from the gospell vnto idolatrie which of them dyd euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so blynded you that you can not distinguishe and put a difference betweene one that hauing bene nousled from hys youthe vp in idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betweene hym which hauing knowledge of the gospell afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I know none that haue beene preachers of the gospell and after in the time of Queene Mary malsemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers and if there be any suche I thincke for offence sake the Church might better be without them then haue them You say God in that place sheweth how greuous a sinne idolatrie is in the priestes especially And is it not now more greuous in the mynister of the gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater And if the sinne be greater should it haue now a lesse punishment then it had then how shall the fault be esteemed great or little but by the greatnes or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lord commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And thys commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for oures You worke a sure way which to mayntayne your corruptions deny the scripture which speaketh agaynst them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time
muste remember that S. Luke coulde not learne to speake of them that came two or three hundreth yeares after him but he borrowed thys phrase of speache of those that were before him and therfore speaketh of elections as they did So that you see thys shift will not serue Let vs therfore see your third whych is that although the Churches consent was then required yet is it not nowe and that it is no general rule no more then say you that all things should be therfore common now because they were in the Apostles time The authors of the Admonition wyth their fauourers muste be counted Anabaptists no one word being shewed whych tendeth thervnto you must accuse them whych confirme that foundation whereof they build their communitie of all things whych is one of their cheefe heresies If I shoulde saye nowe that you are like to those that rowe in a boate whych although they loke backwards yet they thrust a nother way I should speake with more likelihode thē you haue done For althoughe you make a countenaunce and speake hotely against Anabaptistes yet in deede you strengthen their handes wyth reasons But I will not say so neither doe I thinke that you fauoure that secte but only the whirlewinde and tempest of your affection bent to maintaine this estate whereby you haue so great honoure and wealth driueth you vpon these rocks to wracke your selfe on and others For I pray you what communitie is spoken of either in the second thirde or fourth of the Actes whych ought not to be in the church as long as the world standeth was there any communitie but as touching the vse and so farre for the as the pore brethren had neede of and not to take euery man a like was it not in any man his power to sell his houses or landes or not to sell them When he had solde them was it not in euery man his libertie to keepe the money to hymselfe at his pleasure and all they that were of the Church did not sell their possessions but those whose heartes the Lord touched singularly wyth the compassion of the neede of others and whome God had blessed wyth aboundance that they had to serue them selues and helpe others and therefore it is reckened as a rare example that * Barnabas the Cyprian and Leuite did sel hys possessions and brought the price to the feete of the Apostles And as for Ananias Saphira they were not punished for because they brought not the price of their possessions to the Apostles but because they lyed saying that they had brought the whole when they had brought but parte And to be shorte is there any more done there then S. Paule prescribeth to the Corinthians and in them to all churches to the worldes end After he had exhorted to liberalitie towardes the pore churche in Ierusalem not sayth he that other should be releeued and you oppressed but vpon like condition at this time your aboundance supplieth their lacke that also their aboundance maye be for youre lacke that there might be equalitie as it is wrytten he that gathered much had nothing ouer and he that gathered little had not the les Surely it were better you were no Doctor in the Churche then that the Anabaptistes should haue suche holde to bring in their communitie as you geue them In summe the Apostolike communitie or the Churches in their time was not Anabaptisticall Vnto the place of the seconde Epistle to the Corinthians and. 8. chapter you aske what maketh that to the election of the ministers but why doe not you say heere as you did in the other place that the apostle meaneth nothing els but the putting on of the handes of them whych ordained for the same worde cheirotonetheis is heere vsed that was there and this place dothe manifestly and wythout all contradiction conuince your vaine signification that you make of it in the other place and the vntruthe saying that the scripture vseth thys woorde for a solemne manner of ordering ministers by putting on of handes For heere it is sayde that he that was ioyned wyth Paule was cheirotonetheis by the church and it is manifest that the imposition of hands was not by the church people but by the elders and ministers as it appeareth in s Paule to Timothe Now to come to that which you make so light of for say you how foloweth this the church chose Luke or Barnabas to be cōpanion of Paule his iourney Ergo the churches must chuse their ministers It followeth very well for if it were thought◠meete that Saynte Paule shoulde not chuse hym selfe of hys owne authoritie a companion to helpe hym being an Apostle is there any archbyshoppe that shall dare take vppon him to make a minister of the gospell being so many degrees bothe in authoritie and in all giftes needefull to discerne and trye oute or take knowledge of a sufficient minister of the gospell inferioure to S. Paule And if S. Paule woulde haue the authoritye of the churche to ordaine the Minister that shoulde ayde hym in other places for the gathering of reliefe of the poore Churches howe muche more did he thincke it meete that the Churches shoulde chuse their owne Minister whych should gouerne them Which things may be also sayde of the election in the first of the Actes for there the Churche firste chose two whereof one shoulde be an Apostle whych shoulde not be Minister of that Church but should be sent into all the world So that alwayes the Apostles haue shunned to do any thing of their owne willes without the knowledge eyther of those churches where they instituted any gouernors or if it were for the behofe of those places where there were no churches gathered yet would they ordaine none but by the consent of some other churche whych was already established You will not deny but that in the Apostles time and S. Cyprians time in many places the consent of the people was required shewe any one place where it was not Dothe not S. Luke say that it was done churche by churche that is in euery churche And where you say it endured but to S. Cyprians time it shall appeare to all men that it endured in the churche a thousande yeare and more after hys time And it appeareth in that he vsed it not as a thing indifferent but necessary and argueth the necessitye of it of the place of the first of the Acts which is alleaged by the authors of the Admonition and so they are not their argumentes that you throwe vp so scornefully saying how followeth this and this what proueth it but Cyprians whome by their sides you thrust throughe and so vnreuerently handle But you say these examples are no generall rules Examples of all the Apostles in all churches and in all purer times vncontrolied and vnretracted eyther by any the primitiue and purer churches or by any rule of the scripture I thinke ought to stand If
oute any wythout good cause that then the Magistrates shoulde compell the churches to doe their duetye In deede the byshop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperoure hys handes because of the lyghtnesse of the people as Platina maketh mention but that is not the matter for I do nothing else heere but shew that the elections of the ministers by the Church were vsed in the times of the Emperoures and by their consentes and seeing that Otho confessed it pertayned not vnto him it is to be doubted whether he tooke it at the Bishop his handes And if the Emperoures permitted the election of the byshop to that Citie where it made most for their suertie to haue one of their owne appoyntment as was Rome which with their byshoppes dyd often tymes put the good Emperoures to trouble it is to be thought that in other places both Cities townes they dyd not deny the elections of the ministers to the people Besides that certayne of those constitutions are not of Rome but of any citie whatsoeuer And these Emperoures were and lyued betweene 500. and odde yeares vntill the very poynt of a thousande yeares after Christ so that hyther to thys lyberty was not gone out of the Church albeit the Pope which brought in all tyranny and went about to take all libertie from the churches was now on horse backe had placed hym selfe in that Antichristian seate To the next section in the 45. THose that write the Centuries suspect thys Canon and doubt whether it be a bastarde or no considering the practise of the church But heere or euer you were aware you haue striken at your selfe For before you sayde that thys order of chusing the minister by voyces of the church was but in the Apostles tyme and duryng the time of persecution And the first time you can alledge thys libertie to be taken awaye was in the 334. yeare of our Lorde which was at the least 31. yeares after that Constantine the great began to raigne I say at the least because there be good authors that say that thys Councell of Laodicea was holden Anno. 338. after the death of Iouinian the Emperoure and so there is 35. yeares betweene the beginning of Constantines raigne and thys councel Now I thinke you will not say that the Church was vnder persecution in Cōstantines tyme And therfore you see you are greatly deceiued in your accoumpt And if it be as lawfull for vs to vse maister Caluins authoritie which both by example and wrytings hath alwayes defended our cause as it is for you to wryng him and his wordes to things which he neuer meant and the contrary wherof he continually practised then thys authoritie of youres is dashed For maister Caluin sayth where as it is sayd in that councel that the election should not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouyde that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were cheefe in the election of the churches And euen the same order woulde we haue kepte in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we would haue the libertie of the Church preserued which Christ hath bought so dearely from all tyranny so do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre all barbarous confusion and disorder But if councelles be of so great authoritie to decide thys controuersy then the most famous councell of Nice will strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistle that it wryteth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that you should haue power both to chuse any man and to geue their names which are worthy to be amongst the clergye and to doe all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the churche And if it happen any to dye in the churche then those which were last taken are to be promoted to the honor of him that is dead with thys condition if they be worthy and the people chuse them and the bishop of the citie of Alexandria together geuing his consent and appoynting them An other of the famousest councelles called the councell of Constantinople which was gathered vnder Theodosius the great as it is witnessed by the * Tripartite storie in an Epistle which it wrote to Damasus the pope and Ambrose and others sayth thus We haue ordayned Nectarius the byshoppe of Constantinople with the whole consent of the counsell in the sight of the Emperour Theodosius beloued of God the whole Citie together decreeing the same Likewise he sayth that Flauian was appoynted by that synode byshop of Antioche the whole people appoynting him Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was holden about anno domini 400. in the first canon of the councell it is sayde when hee hath bene examyned in all these and founde fully instructed then let hym be ordayned Byshop by the common consent of the clarkes and the lay people and the Byshoppes of the prouince and especially eyther by the authoritie or presence of the metropolitane And in the Toletane councell as it appeareth in the 51. distinction it was thus ordayned Let not hym be counted a priest of the Churche for so they speake whome neyther the clergye nor people of that citie where he is a priest doth chuse nor the consent of the metropolitane other priests in that prouince hath sought after Moreouer concilium Cabilonense which was holden anno domini 650. in the tenth Canon hath thys If any Bishop after the death of hys predecessor be chosen of any but of the byshops in the same prouince and of the cleargie citizens let an other be chosen and if it be otherwise let that ordination be accompted of none effect All which councelles proue manifestly that as the people in their elections had the ministers rounde about or synodes counceiles directing them so there was none came to be ouer the people but by their voyces or consentes To the next section in the 45. page Thys alteration c. IN deede if you put such darke coleures vpon the Apostles church as thys is it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our church after it But O Lord who can paciently heare thys horrible disorder ascribed to the Apostles church which heere you attribute vnto it that euery one hand ouer head preached baptised and expounded the Scriptures VVhat a window nay what a gate is opened heere to Anabaptistes to confirme their fantasticall opynion wherin they holde that euery man whome the spirite moueth may come euen from the ploughe taile to the pulpit to preache the worde of god If you say it is Ambrose saying and not youres I answere vnlesse you allow it why bring you it and that to proue the difference betwene the Apostles times and these
For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betwene the Apostles times and oures Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bene proued that there was none that tooke vppon hym the ministerie in the churche but by lawfull calling what is thys but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cottage of wode straw and stubble to haue some estymation which could haue none the other standing For in effecte so you doe when to vpholde a corrupte vse that came in by the tyrannie of the pope you goe about to discredite the orders and institutions which were vsed in the Apostles times and that with such manyfest vntruthes To the next section in the. 45. page Musculus also c. THe place is too common which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by hym selfe in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers which were brought in doubt of their calling because they were not chosen by their churches speaking of the vse of the church in chusing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly cōfessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consent of the people and ordayned and confirmed of the semores Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the churche and that thrusting the pastor vpon the church not being chosen of it doth agree to a church that is not free but subiect to bondage Fourthly that thys fourme of choise by the church maketh much bothe to that that the minister may gouerne hys flocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeelde them selues to be eastyer ruled then when one commeth agaynst their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayeth that they are altogether certayne and such as can not be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the churche and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which shoulde after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more clearely appeare that hys iudgement is nothing lesse then to confirme thys election he setteth downe their election in Bernland which he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one man but all the ministers in the citie of Berne doe chuse a pastor when there is any place voyde Afterward he is sent to the Senate from the which if he be doubted of he is sent agayne to the ministers to be examined and then if they fynde him meete he is confirmed of the Senate which standeth of some number of the people and by the most part of their voyces By these things it appeareth that this election of the minister by the people is lawfull and Apostolike and confessed also by him that those that are otherwise bring with them subiection vnto the church and seruitude and cary a note and marke of corruption of religion Last of all that he goeth about to defende the election vsed in the churches where he was minister by this that it approched vnto the election in the primitiue Churche Nowe what cause there may bee that we should bring the church into bondage or take away that order wherby both the mynister may be better assured of hys calling and the people may the willinglyer submit them selues vnto their pastoures and gouernoures or what cause to depart from the Apostolike forme of the choise of the pastor being lawfull I confesse I know not and would be glad to learne To assigne the cause hereof vnto the christian magistrate to say that these things can not be had vnder hym as you vnder maister Muscuius name doe affirme is to doe great iniurie vnto the office of the magistrate which abridgeth not the liberty of the churche but defendeth it dimmisheth not the pastor his assurance of his calling but rather encreaseth it by establishing the ordinary callings only which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary withdraweth not the obediēce of the people from the pastor but vrgeth it where it is not constrayneth it wher it is not volūtary And seeing that also Musculus sayth that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of relygion and disordered states what greater dishonoure can there be done vnto the holye institution of God in the ciuile gouernoure then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be where there is a christian Magistrate as thoughe there coulde be no pure religion vnder him when as in deede it may be easely vnder him pure which can hardly and with great daunger be pure without him And when as it is sayd that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister we doe not denye the confirmation of the elections vnto the godly ciuill magistrate and the disanulling of them if the church in chusing and the ministers in directing shall take any vnfitte man so that yet he doe not take away the libertie from the church of chusing a more conuenient man. So that you see that by Musculus your witnesse reasons this enforced election without the consent of the people is but corrupt and so ought not to be in the churche And that although it hath bene borne withall yet it must be spoken agaynst and the lawfull forme of election laboured for of all those that loue the truth and the sinceritie therof To the next section in the. 46. page NOw you would proue that thys election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time But you haue forgotten your selfe which sayde a little before that this election by the church was not only in the Apostles times but also in the tyme of Cyprian now you say otherwise And if the election of the ministery by the church agree so wel with the time of persecution and when there is no christian Magistrate how commeth it to passe that in those dayes when persecution was so hotte and there were no such Magistrates that S. Paule would haue the election by one man and not by the church Besydes that if this be S. Paule hys commaundement that the byshop should only chuse the minister why doe you make it an indifferent thing and a thing in the power of the church to be varyed by times for this is a flarte commaundement Thus you see you throwe downe with one
hand as fast as you builde with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothe I saye first that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe and therefore instructeth hym what he should do for his parte in the appoynting of the minister If he had written to the whole Churche of Ephesus he would lykewise haue instructed them how they should haue behaued thē selues in that businesse If one do wryte vnto hys frende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he chuse none but such as are meete shall any man conclude therupon that none hath to doe in that election but he to whom that letter is writtē Then I say further that S. Paule attributeth that vnto Timothe that was common to moe with hym because he being the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe which thing I haue proued by dyuers examples both out of the scripture and otherwise before And euen in this imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that where as S. Paule sayth in the 2. Epistle that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym in the first Epistle he sayth that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of the eldership So that that which he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth with moe And that he dyd it not him selfe alone it may appeare by those wordes which folow and communicate not with other mens sinnes as if he should saye if other will ordeyne insuffycient ministers yet be not thou caryed away with their example And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church and that he had no superioritie aboue his fellowes it may appeare for that he sayth lay thy hands rashly of none where if he had had authoritie ouer the rest he would rather haue sayd suffer none to lay his handes rashly Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betweene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that although this might agree to Timothe alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Bishop may do so For Timothe was an Euangelist which was aboue a Bishop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to say the greater may do it therfore the lesse may do it The superiour therfore the inferioure If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses you should not be so vnwise to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrisostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timothe to be circumspect If you meane to vse their testimonie to proue that he only made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothe for there is nothing there but agreeth also to thys place And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to proue that to the Bishop only doth belong the right of election of the minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it cā not be so taken of the sole election of the Bishop the church being shutte out If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe as it seemeth it ought seeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke is in the authorities of men which Aristotle calleth atechnas peiseis vncunning proofes I coulde sende you to maister Calum which teacheth that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byshoppes and ministers by hys owne authoritie when he hym selfe would not take so much vpon hym but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church But he peraduenture sauoureth not your tast and yet you woulde make men beleue sometimes that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted and racked in peeces from the rest to make good your part If hee weyghe not with you you haue maister Musculus whome you take to bee a great patrone of youres in thys cause which dothe with greater vehemencie affirme the same thing that mayster Caluin sayth asking whether any man can beleeue that Paisle permitted in thys place to Titus or in the place before alledged to Timothe that they shoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie and by them selues when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche In the ende you say it is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it belongeth to the byshop to chuse the minister Because you acquaint my eares with such bolde and vntrue affirmations I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your selfe as though you had all the fathers by heart and caryed them about with you wheresoeuer you went whereas if a man woulde measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them Are all the learned fathers of that mynde I thinke then you would haue bene better aduised then to haue sette downe but one when as you know a matter in controuersie will not be tryed but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lord speake hym selfe and therefore you geue me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one you know of no more now let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in thys matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely then simply in that you haue altered Ieromes wordes For where hee sayeth wherein doth a byshoppe differ from an elder but only in ordayning you say a byshop doth excell all other mynisters c. I report me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Ieromes hys sentēce because you wold not let the reader vnderstand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes bishops in his dayes betwene our Lord Bishoppes For then the byshop had nothing aboue an elder or other minister but only the ordayning of the minister Now he hath a thousande parishes where the minister hath but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the bishop now excommunicateth which the minister can not absolueth or receyueth into the church which the minister can not Besides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byshop doth and which neither byshop nor other minister ought to doe I say I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an euill argument to saye the byshop had the ordayning of the minister Ergo he had the election of hym the contrary rather is a good argument the byshop had the ordayning of the minister therefore he had not the election of hym For ordination
and election are dyuers members of one whole which is the placing of the pastor in hys church and one member can not be verified of an other as you can not say your foote is your hand I will not deny but that sometimes these wordes maye bee founde confounded in Ecclesiasticall wryters but I will shewe you also that they are distinguished and that the election pertayneth to the people and ordayning vnto the Byshop Vpon the sixte of the Actes the glose hath that that which was done there of the xij Apostles in willing the brethren to loke out fitte men was done to geue vs example muste be obserued in those that are ordayned For sayth the glose the people must chuse and the Byshoppe must ordayne And that S. Ierome must be so vnderstanded it appeareth not only that it hath beene so expounded but also it may be casely proued for that S. Ieromes sentence and iudgement appeareth in other places that he woulde haue nothing heere done with out the people as in his Epistle ad Rusticum monachum he willeth that the people shoulde haue power and authoritie to chuse their clarkes and their ministers and in hys Epistle to Neopotian of the lyfe of the clarkes he hath thys distinction manifestly They runne sayth he vnto the Bishoppes suffragans certen times of the yeare and bringing some summe of money they are annoynted and ordayned being chosen of none and afterwarde the Bishoppe without any lawfull election is chosen in hugger mugger of the Canons or Prebendaries only without the knowledge of the people And so you see that although y S. Ierome sayeth that the Byshop had the ordayning of the ministers yet he had not the election for the ordayning was nothing else but an approuing of the election by putting on of handes and consequently hauing made your vaunt that all the learned fathers were of thys iudgement that the Bishop should elect the minister you shew not so much as one Now will I shewe you the cleane contrary of that you saye not that I gladlye trauaile thys wayes for if you had not constrayned me you shoulde not haue hearde one voyce thys way And woulde to God that you woulde be content especially when you meete with those that will be tryed by the scriptures to seeke no farther strengthe then they geue you But I am lothe you shoulde oppresse the truthe and make all men afrayde of it by making them beleeue that it is so desolate and forsaken of her frendes as you pretende You confesse S. Cyprian is agaynste you herein and he was a learned father and a Martyr also whych dyd not only vse thys forme of election but also taught it to be necessary and commaunded and therefore me thincketh you shoulde not haue sayde all the learned fathers without exception You see also S. Ierome is of an other iudgement S. Augustine also when hee speaketh how hee appoynted Eradius to succeede hym sheweth howe it was the approued right and custome that the whole church shoulde eyther chuse or consent of their Bishoppe And * Ambrose sayeth that that is truely and certaynely a diuine election to the office of a byshop which is made of the whole church Eregorius Nazianzene in the Oration which he had at the death of hys father hath diuers things which proue that the election of the minister pertayned to the Churche and confuteth those thinges which should seeme to hinder it These were learned fathers and yet thought not that the election of the pastor or byshop pertayned to one man alone but that the church had also hir interest therefore you see all the learned fathers are not of that mynde you say they are And that thys election continued in the churche vntill within a three hundred yeares at what time there was more then Egyptiacall and palpable darcknesse ouer the face of the whole earth it may appeare in a Treatise of Flaccus Illirâ—cus whiche he calleth an addition vnto hys booke that he entituleth the Catalogue of the witnesses of truthe of whome I confesse my selfe to haue bene muche holpen in thys matter of the choyse of the church touching the ministers especially in the Emperoures Edictes which are before cited For lacking opportunities diuers wayes I was contented somewhat to vse the collection to my commoditie for the more speedie furtheraunce and better proceeding in other matters which I will leaue of because they may be there red of those that be learned whome I will also referre to the sixe and seuen bookes of Eusebius wher both the formes of the electioÌ„s in those tymes are described wher besides that the customes of the peoples choise is set forth there are examples of the election of the people and cleargie which were confirmed by the christian Magistrate namely in the Byshop of Constantinople And these may suffice for the other that haue not that commoditie of bookes nor habilitie nor skill to reade them being in a straunge tongue to knowe that besides the institution of God in his worde thys manner of election dyd continue so long as there was any light of the knowledge of God in the churche of god I will adde only one place which if it be more bitter then the rest and cutte the quicke more neare you shall not bee angry with me but first with those that were the authors of it and then wyth him that wrote it Eusebius speaking of Origine which was admitted not of one Bishop but of many Byshoppes to teache sheweth how the Byshoppes were reprehended by the Byshoppe of Alexandria called Demetrius because they had admitted him without the election of the presbyterie of the churche which were the cheefe in the election in euery church and vnto the which the churches did committe the gouernment of them selues in euery seuerall towne and Citie sayth that it hath not beene hearde that laikous shoulde homilein paronton ton episcopon which is that the lay men should teach when the Byshoppes were present whereby it is euident that he counted hym a lay man which was only admitted by the Byshops although they were many not being first elected by the presbyterie of that church wherof he was the teacher Seing then that the scripture doth teache thys order that there shoulde be no minister thrust vppon the churche but by the consent thereof and reason perswadeth that wayes and the vse of the churche hath beene so from time to time both in peace and in time of persecution bothe vnder tyrantes and godly Princes it can not be without the highe displeasure of almightie God the great hurte and sore oppression of the churche that one man shoulde take thys vnto hym which pertayneth to so many or one minister which pertayneth to more then one especially where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peoples election or consent Now if any man will rise vp and saye that this doctryne bringeth in disorder and by thys meanes children and boyes and
wemen shoulde haue their voyces whiche is vnseemely all men vnderstand that where the election is most freest and most generall yet only they haue to doe which are heades of families and that thys is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred which is vnworthy to be answered requireth rather a Censor then a Disputer to suppresse it To the. 47. and. 48. pages THe reason is of greater force then you woulde seeme to make it for as the twelueth place was to Mathias so is a certayne churche vnto a pastor or mynister and as the Apostles ordayned none vnto that place before it was voyde so ought not the Byshoppe ordayne anye vntill there be a churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordayned not any Apostle further then they had testimonie of the worde of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no byshop ordayne anye to anye function which is not in the scripture appoynted but there are by the worde of God at thys time no ordinarie ministeries ecclesiasticall which be not locall and tyed to one congregation therefore thys sending abrode of ministers which haue no places is vnlawfull And that it may the better appeare that those functions doe only remayne which are appoynted to one certayne place and that the reader may haue the clearer and playner vnderstanding of all this matter all the whole ecclesiasticall function may be well deuided first into extraordinarie or those that endured for a time and into ordinarie which are perpetuall Of the first sorte are the Apostles and Euangelistes which the Lord vsed for a tyme as it were for cheefe masons and principall builders of his church as well to lay the foundations of churches where none were as also to aduaunce them to such forwardnesse and heighte vntill there mighte be gotten for the finishing of the building and house of the Church fitte pastors elders and deacons And that being done they went from those places into others which thing may be perceiued by the continuall storie of the Actes of the Apostles and by diuers sentences which are found in the Epistles of S. Paule And therefore also when the churches haue beene by antichrist euen rased from the foundations God hathe stirred vp Euangelistes euen immediatly by this spirite without any calling of men to restore hys churches agayne of whiche sorte was Maister Wickliffe in our Countrie Maister Hus and Ierome of Prage in Bohemia Luther and ♉ winglius in Germanie c. And after thys sorte God maye at hys good pleasure worke when hee purposeth to set in hys gospell in anye nation where the whole face of the earth is couered wyth the darckenesse of ignoraunce and wante of the knowledge of God. Of this sort of extraordinary functions are the Prophetes also which besides a singular dexteritie and readines of expounding the scriptures had also the gift of telling things to come which because it is not now ordinarily I thincke there is none wildeny but it is an extraordinary calling For the other two of the Apostles and Euangelistes it shall appeare more at large hereafter by occasion geuen by maister Doctor that they are but for a tune The ordinary continual functions of the church are also deuided into two partes for eyther they are they that gouerne or take charge of the whole church as are those which are called elders or they which take charge of one part of the Churche which is the poore of euery church as are those which are called deacons Those agayne that are presbyteri which we terme elders of the church and haue to do with the whole church are eyther those which teache and preach the word of God and gouerne so or else which gouerne only and do not teach nor preach Of the first kinde are pastors doctore Of the second are those which are called by the cōmon name of elders or auncients Of all this ordinary function I shall haue occasion to speake and of euery one shall appeare that which I haue sayd before that they are no vncertaine and vndefunte ministeries but such as are limited vnto a certaine churche and congregation And first of all for the pastor or byshoppe whych is heere mentioned whych name so euer we consider of them they do forthwith as sone as they are once either spoken or thought of imply and infer a certen and definite charge being as the Logicians terme them actuall relatiues For what shepheard can there be vnles he haue a flocke and howe can he be a watchman vnles he haue some citie to loke vnto Or how can a man be a master onles he haue a seruaunt Or a father vnles he haue a childe Nowe if you will say that they haue a charge and they haue flockes and cities to attende and watche vppon for a wholo shire or prouince or realme are their flockes and their cities and their charges First of all in your reading ministers that is vntrue for they goe not to reade in all churches but tary vntill they be hired in one And therfore when the Bishop hath laide hys hand of them they are no more ministers then before hys hund came vpon them because they haue no charges and therfore the patrone or person that hireth them to read and setteth them a worke are their byshops and make them ministers and not the Bishop of the diocese Secondarily for those that preache to haue a whole diocese or prouince or realme to be their flocke or citie to attend vpon is contrary to the pollicy or good husbandrye of all those that woulde eyther haue their citie safe or their flockes sound For who are they whych would appoynt one for the watch of a thousand townes or cities when as all they whych loue their safetye woulde rather haue for euery citye many watchmen then for many cities one or what is he that is so watchfull and circumspect whose diligence and watchfulnes one citye assaulted wyth ennemies will not wholely occupy and take vp or what is he whose sight is so sharpe that he can see from one ende of the diocese or prouince or realme to the other ende thereof or what is he that will commit the keeping of .xx. M. sheepe to one man that loketh for any good or encrease of them howe shall all these heare hys whistle howe shall all knowe his voyce when they can not heare it how shall they acknowledge hym when they can not knowe hym howe shall they folowe him when they can not see him goe before howe shall he heale their diseases when he can not possibly know them But some man wil say that these are humaine reasons and likelyhodes whych maye be ouerthrowne wyth other similitudes These notwithstanding are Analogies drawne from the nature of those things whych the ministers are likened vnto and are of the moste parte vsed of the holy Ghoste hym selfe expresly But that there be no
controuersy left in this poynt what is a flocke S. Paule defineth it plainly when he sayeth appoynte pastors or elders or byshops for these woordes are indifferently vsed through not euery shire or prouince or realme but through euery city or town And least that any man should here take occasion to conclude that then it is lawfull for one manne to be bishoppe or pastor of a whole Citie suche as London or Yorke c. S. Luke in the Actes dothe declare the meaning of this place where he sayth that they appoynted elders throughoute euery congregation so that if the citie or towne be great and the professors of the gospell in it be more then wil make conueniently a congregation then there muste be by the rule of God more pastors and byshops Whervpon it appeareth that bothe no pastor or byshoppe ought to be made without there be a flocke as it were a voyde place for him and that a flocke is not a realme or prouince or dioces as we now call a dioces but so many as may conueniently meete in one assembly or congregation And that thys is the meaning of S. Paule it appeareth by the practise of the Churches from time to time whych haue both decreed against and found fault wyth these wandering and rouing ministeries The great councell of * Calcedon decreed that no elder or deacon or anye other in the ecclesiasticall order shoulde be ordained apolelymenos that is losely and as it were let goe at randone whether he him selfe listeth whych he also interpreateth by and by more plainly when he addeth that he should not be ordained Eime idicos en ecclesia poleos e comes that is vnies it be specially in a congregation of some citie or towne And in the councell of Vrban as Gratian reporteth distinction 70. it was decreed that the ordination that was made without any title should be void and what that meaneth is shewed by and by when it is sayd in what church any is intitled there let hym alwayes remaine And thys is also S. Ierome hys complainte in that men were ordained vnto the ministerie when they were chosen by no churche and so went rounde aboute hauing no certaine place And therefore thys that none ought to preache onles he haue some pastoral charge ought not to haue ben so strange a thing vnto you as you make it if eyther the scriptures or the councels or the ancient fathers had bene so well knowen vnto you as eyther your name requireth or you take vpon you whych dare so boldly pronoūce that there can be shewed no text of scripture for the matter But you aske what place Paule Barnabas had apoynted them What meane you therby to conclude that because Paul Barnabas the apostles had no place appoynted them therfore a pastor or bishop shuld not when this is one difference betwene the apostle and bishop that the one hath no certaine place appoynted and the other hath But I thinke I smel out your meaning which is that we may make apostles also at these dayes and that that function is not yet ceased for otherwise your reason is nothing worthe Likewise also you aske of Phillip whych was an euangelist And so you thinke y these running ministers are lawfull because they are Apostles and Euangelists against whych I shall haue occasion to speake shortly after in the. 50. page But if a man be able to liue of himselfe and minde not to be burdensome to the church it seemeth vnreasonable vnto you that he may not go about and preach throughout all churches Did you neuer read any learned disputations and that of learned wryters in our dayes about this question whether although it be lawful it be expedient that a man being able and willing to liue of himselfe ought to take wages of the church for inconueniences whych might ensue of taking nothing I do but aske you the question because you make so great a wonder at this for I wil not take vpon me heere the defence of it because I will not multiply questions And whye I may you maye not that man that is so able and will be content to liue of him selfe why I say may not he teache and be the pastor of some churche Doe you thincke that for his forbearing the wages of the Churche he may breake the lawes and orders that God hath established for the rest contained in those pages touching the ordaining of ministers or byshops I haue before spoken at large To the. 49. page OEcumenius and Chrysostome saye that by Elders he meaneth Bishops not thereby to seuer those that had the gouernement of the churche togither wyth the pastor minister of the word which were called ancients as you seeme to meane but to put distinction betweene those whych are elders by age elders by office besides y it is before alleaged y it may be y the pastor or byshop did in the name of all the elders lay on his hands vpon hym that was ordained And lastly you know and can not denye that s Paule in one or two places confoundeth the Bishop and the Elder To say that the byshop may as wel say receiue the holy ghost as to say the words vsed in the supper or to say y the sinnes of those whych to beleue are forgiuen is dis dia pason as farre as Yorke London For there are commaundements to the ministers to do that which they do and heere is none and there the minister doth not commaund that the breaue be the body of Christ but he sayth that it is Neither dothe he commaund y sinnes should be forgiuen but pronounceth in the behalfe of God that they are forgeuē It is not vnlawfull also that he with the congregation should make a prayer for the assistance or encrease of God his gifts vpon him that is ordained but to commaund that he should receiue it is meerely vnlawfull For these words receiue the holy ghost are the imperatiue moode and do expresly signifie a commaundement And so the bishop may as well say to the sea when it rageth and swelleth peace be quiet as to say receiue the holy ghost And if you thinke it so good reason to vse this in the making of ministers because you vse the wordes of our sauior Christ why may not you as wel blow vpon them as he did for seeing that our sauior Christ confirmed his word there with a sacrament or outward signe and you thinke you must therfore do it because he did it you are muche to blame to leaue out the outward signe or sacrament of breath whereby the faith of hym whych is ordained might be the more assured of such gifts and graces as are requisite in his function I heape not vp heere the iudgement of the wryters you knowe I thinke it myght casely be done if I liked to follow that way Answere to the. 50. and. 51. pages THys passeth all the diuinitie that euer I
number of mens heartes yet which might much be helped by the bringing in of that custome agayne of burying the deade in some honest place out of the towne therto appoynted To the next sections in the. 52. and. 53. pages IF you shoulde begette and be a father of many bookes and all your children like their eldest brother you woulde without better aduise shake manye groundes of our religion For heere agayne you wyshe that all pastors were able to teache but that being vnpossible as the estate is nowe you are content with pastors or ministers that can doe nothing but reade You through out your whole booke make thys a maruellous good estate and alwayes turne the best side outwarde and when men goe about to vrge the deformities thereof to the ende they mighte be remedyed then you lay open the shame and nakednesse of it and make it greater then it is in deede For as I haue shewed before the churche standeth not so muche in neede of youre reading ministers as you would make the worlde beleeue And althoughe it be a great deformitie and sore plage of the church which you heere speake of and confesse at vnwares yet you will let no man come neare to heale it There be some make a gayne by sores and sore legges and therefore they haue a medicine to keepe their woundes alwayes greene that they shoulde not heale I hope you do not of purpose keepe the churche in this estate but thys I dare say that the cheefe of your gaine and of your honour consisteth and is grounded in the ruines of the church and therefore I desire you to looke vnto it But what if the estate of the churche be such as you speake of that it will skarce yelde three preaching pastors and bishops in some diocesse may you therefore make reading ministers In deede if the Apostle had made this a counsell only and no commaundement that pastors of churches should be able to teache then your saying might haue bene borne But seeing that S. Paule hathe commaunded expressedly that he should bee able to teache and to conuince the gaynesayers I woulde learne of you gladly what necessitie there is whiche can cause a man to breake the morall law of God to bring in a tradytion of man You maye as well breake any other commaundement of God for necessyties sake as breake thys being comprehended in the first table And to say that these that can only read must be tolerated in the churche as ministers is to saye because you can haue no pastors in the churches you will haue idolles For so will I not doubt to call them although through ignoraunce of that which they do some may be good men But yet in respect of the place that they occupy they are idolles for they stande for that and make shew of that which they are not and admit you them as often as you will the Lord pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him which haue no knowledge But let vs heare your reason there muste bee reading in the churche therefore there must bee ministers whiche can doe nothing else Then we may reason thus to There must be breaking of bread and distributing of the cuppe in the church and pouring on water therefore whosoeuer is able to breake a loafe of bread or to lift a cup of wyne or to poure on water on the body of the childe may be made a minister And did you neuer reade that there were readers in the church when there were no reading ministers but of reading of the scriptures and prayers in the church there will be a fitter place to speake afterwarde where it shall be shewed how vniustly you surmise these thinges of them Touching Homilies shall be spoken more hereafter where further occasion is geuen I doe not vse to maintayne the places which are quoted althoughe they be truely alleaged for the causes which I haue before mentioned but yet I can not but speake of this place of S. Luke for feare of the daunger that may ensue For if thys be a good reason that the place of S. Luke may not be vsed to proue that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministerie because in the same place is made mention of curing of diseases which is but a temporall thing and followed the ministerie but for a tyme then the commaundement of S. Iames that the Elders of the Churche shoulde praye for those that are sicke is now no commaundement because putting on of handes and annoynting of them that they myghte recouer theyr healthe hathe no place and by thys meanes you will pull from vs many places of the new Testament as you dyd before of the olde What dealing is this to bring men into suspition of that which they neuer thought of as though there were any woorde that sounded to this that a man should put him selfe into the office of preaching without the approbation of those men to whome it doth pertayne Their complaynt is that those which are ordayned pastors and therefore to preach can not doe it without further licence As if a man should be charged to doe a thing forthwith and then he that chargeth hym bindeth him hande and foote that he can not doe it vnles he will lose hym The Byshoppes inhable hym to teache and poynte hym a place to teache in and yet they will not let hym teache vnlesse he haue a further licence If hee be an hereticke or schismatike or suspected of any suche thing why is he admitted or being admitted why is he suffered to be so much as a reader in the church And because you could not answere thys therefore you set vp a fansie of youres to confute And thus you fyght without an aduersary and you make triumphes where there is no victory They will say vnto you that not only vnder a godly Magistrate but not in the time of persecution any man ought to take vpon him any function in the church vnles he be thereunto called by men except he haue a wonderfull calling which is rare and must be diligently examyned by them which haue it least vnder pretence of the spirite of God whome they make author of their calling it fall out that it be but their own headlong affection that hath thrust them in so farre they are from the frensic of Anabaptistes whiche you by a confutation of that which they neuer affirmed would seeme to staine them with To the section beginning in the latter ende of the. 53. page vntill the middest of the 62. page THe Cappe the Surplice and Tippet are not the greatest matters wee striue for which notwithstanding hath bene informed to the churches beyond sea to the ende that the iudgements of some might be the eastyer had against vs Howbeit we thinke it an attire vnmeete for a minister of the gospel to weare and the Surplice especially more then the other two because suche hurtfull ceremonies are so muche more daungerous as they
your reader thinke or at the least haue the authors of the Admonition in suspition that they liked not of study for sermones God make vs more carefull of the good name of our brethren then by such light and vngrounded suspitions nay wythoute any suspition nay contrary to that whych is daily seene and harde to raise vp suche slaunderous reportes of them But Homilies are smally beholding vnto you whych to proue that they may be red in the churche alledge that Augustin and Chrysostome made sermones in their churches for that whych we call a sermon they called of the Greke worde an Homilie so that the argument is that Augustine and Chrysostome preached sermons or Homilies in their churches therefore we may read homilies in oures But peraduenture you haue some better thing to say for them afterward To the section beginning in the latter end of the. 63. page A Hundreth poundes by yeare is taken of some benefice for whych foure sermons only are preached and those some times by an other If this be more painefull then gainefull it is because the horsse Leche hathe two daughters giue giue c. And I can not see howe they can be more glorious vnles the palace were turned into a courte and their chaire into a throne There are diuers places that God hath blessed wyth peace where the ministers take more paine and haue les gaine and whych make * les noyse when they goe in the streates We haue amongste vs whych haue had Byshopprickes offered and as thyngs vnmeete for a minister of the Gospell haue refused them God be praysed the Sunne shineth not so hotte in this Countrey nowe that you neede to complaine of any great heate and if you feele any heate you haue better shade then Ionas had by hys gourde To the next section beginning at the. 64. page and holding on vntill the. 77. pages OF these offices some thing hath bene spoken before where it hath bene proued out of the words of Christ that neither the names nor offices of Archbishop or Archdeacons doe agree to the ministerie of the gospell Nowe as M. Doctor bestoweth great cost heere and trauaile in digging about them and laying as it were newe earthe to their rootes that they being halfe deade if it were possible myghte be recouered and quickened againe so I because these trees mount vp so highe and spreade their boughes and armes so brode that for the colde shade of them nothing can growe and thriue by them will before I come to answere these things that are heere alledged set downe certaine reasons as it were instruments to take away the superfluous loppe and spread of these immoderate offices And for the names first I desire the reader that we be not thought studious of contention because we striue about the name of Archbyshop c. for thys is not to striue about words vnles it be counted a strife of wordes which is taken for the maintenance of the worde of God as it hathe before appeared out of the Euangelists Then it must be remembred whych Aristotle sayeth very well in hys Elenches that ta onomata ton pragmaton mimemata esti whych is that names are imitations or as it were expres images of the things whereof they are names and doe for the most part bring to hym that heareth them knowledge of the things that are signified by them Howsoeuer the thing be it selfe yet oftentimes it is supposed to be as the name pretendeth and therevpon followeth that a man may be easely deceiued when the names doe not answer to the things wherof they are names There may be I graunte a freer and more licentious vse of names but that licence is more tollerable in any thing rather then in matters of the church and saluation And if there be some cases wherin names that are not so proper may be borne with yet are there also whych are intollerable As who can abide that a minister of the gospell should be called by the name of a Leuite or sacrificer onles it be he whych woulde not care muche if the remembrance of the death and resurrection of our sauioure Christ were plucked out of hys minde Againe it is vnlawfull for any man to take vpon him those titles which are proper to our sauioure Christ but the title of Archbyshop is only proper to our sauioure Christe therefore no man may take that vnto hym That it is proper to oure sauioure Christe appeareth by that whych S. Peter sayeth where he calleth him archipoimena whych is archshepheard or archbishop for bishop shepheard are all one And in the Hebrues where he is called the great shepheard of the sheepe and in the Actes and * Hebrues archleader of lyfe and of saluation whych titles are neuer found to be giuen vnto any but vnto our sauioure Christe and are proper titles of hys mediation and therefore can not be wythout bolde presumption applied vnto any mortall man. And it any man will reply and say that it is not sayd that our sauior Christ is only archbishop I answer that he is not only sayd the head and yet notwithstanding there is no more heads of the churche but he And if it be further sayde that these archbyshops are but vnder and as it were subordinate archbyshops I say that a man may as wel say that men may be also vnder heads of the church whych is the same whych is alledged for the pope Whych thing is not only true in those wordes whych doe signify and set vnlawfull things before our eyes but euen in those names also whych hauing no corruption in their owne nature yet throughe the corrupt vse of men haue as it were gotten suche a tacke of that corruption that the vse of them can not be wythout offence In the primitiue church the name of a Pope was honest and was all one wyth the name of a good pastor but nowe by the ambition of the man of Rome it is so defiled that euery good man shaketh at the very mention of it The name of a Tyranne was first honourable and the same with a king and yet through cruelty and vniust rule of certaine it is become now so hatefull that no vpright and iust dealing Prince none that gouerneth wyth equitye and to the commodity of hys subiects would beare to be called Tyranne wherby it may appeare that it is not for nought that we do stande of these names Nowe if the names ought to be odious being both horribly abused and also forbidden by our sauioure Christe the thyngs them selues must be in greater hatred the vnlawfulnes wherof may thus appeare First of all the ministery is by the word of God and heauenly and not left to the will of men to deuise at their pleasure as appeareth by that whych is noted of s Iohn wher the Phariseis cōming to s Iohn Baptist after that he had denied to be either Christ or Elias or another Prophet conclude
if thou be neither Christ nor Elias nor of the Prophets why baptisest thou whych had bene no good argument if s Iohn might haue bene of some other function then of those whych were ordinarie in the churche and instituted of god And therefore S. Iohn to establish his singular and extraordinary function alledgeth the word of God wherby appeareth that as it was not lawfull to bring in any strange doctrine so was it not lawfull to teache the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function then was instituted by God. Let the whole practise of the churche vnder the lawe be loked vpon and it shall not be founde that any other Ecclesiasticall ministery was appoynted then those orders of highe priest and priests and Leuites c. whych were appoynted by the law of God if there were any raised extraordinarily the same had their calling confirmed from heauen either by signes or miracles or by plaine cleare testimonies of the mouthe of God or by extraordinarye exciting and mouings of the spirite of god So that it appeareth that the ministerie of the gospell and the functions thereof ought to be from heauen and of God and not inuented by the braine of men from heauen I say and heauenly because althoughe it be executed by earthly men the ministers also are chosen by men like vnto themselues yet because it is done by the word and institution of God that hath not only ordained that the word should be preached but hathe ordained also in what order and by whome it should be preached it may well be accounted to come from heauen and from God. Seeing therefore that these functions of the Archbishop and Archdeacon are not in the word of God it foloweth that they are of the earth so can do no good but much harme in the church And if any man will say the we do the church great iniurye because we doe tie her to a certaine nomber of orders of ministers as it were to a stake so that she may not deuise new functions I say that bothe the churche and Christ doth accuse him againe Christ estemeth him selfe to haue iniurie because that by thys meanes he is imagined not to haue bene careful and prouident enough for hys church in that he hath left the ministerie wherein doth consist the life of the church being that wherby it is begottē so raw and vnperfect that by permitting of it to the ordering of men there is a great danger of error whych he might haue set without all daunger by a word or two speaking The churche of the other side riseth against hym for that he maketh Christ les carefull for her then he was for that vnder the lawe For tell me in the whole volume of the Testament is there any kinde or degre of ministerie wherof God is not the certen and expres author was there euer any man I except Ieroboam and suche prophane men either so holy or so wise or of suche great knowledge that euer did so muche as dreame of instituting of a newe ministerie After the long wandring of the Arke in the wildernesse when it came to be placed in Ierusalem tell me if any besides the Leuites and Priestes the ordinarie ministers and the Prophets whych were immediatly stirred vp of God were found to haue ordained any office or title whych was not commaunded or whether there was at any time any thing added or enioyned to those offices of priesthode and Leuiteship whych was not by the lawe prescribed All men knowe that the Arke of Noah was a figure of the church Noah was both a wise and a godly man yet what doth the Lord leaue to his wisdom when as he appoynteth the matter the forme the length the bredth the heigth the woode the kinde and sorte of woode In the tabernacle the church is yet more expressedly shewed forth Moses that was the ouerseer of the worke was a wise and a godly man the artificers that wroughte it Bezalael and Aholiab most cunning workemen and yet obserue howe the Lorde leaueth nothing to their will but telleth not onlye of the boordes of the curtaines of the apparell but also of the barres of the rings of the strings of the hookes of the besomes of the snuffers and of the thyngs the matter and the forme Let vs come to the temple whych as it was more neare the time of Christ so it dothe more liuely expres the churche of God whych nowe is Salomon the wisest man that euer was or shall be dothe nothing in it neyther for the temple nor for the vesselles of the temple nor for the beautie of it but according to the forme that was enioyned hym as appeareth in the Kings and Chronicles And in the restoring of that temple Ezechiel is witnes howe the Angell by the commaundement of God doth parte by parte appoynt all to be done bothe in the temple and in the furniture thereof Nowe if the holy ghoste in Figures and Tropes dothe so carefully and as a man may speake curiously comprehende all things in the truthe it selfe howe muche more is it to be thought that he hath performed this If in the shadowes howe muche more in the body if he haue done this in earthly things and which are pearished how is it to be thought that he hath not performed it in heauenly and those whych abide for euer And then tell me what are those times of which it was sayd the Messias when he commeth will tell vs all Is it a like thyng that he whych did not only appoynt the temple and the tabernacle but the ornaments of them woulde not only neglecte the ornamentes of the churche but also that wythout the whych as we are borne in hand it can not long stande shall we thinke that he which remembred the barres there hathe forgotten the pillers heere or he that there remembred the pinnes did heere forget the master builders shoulde he there remember the besomes and heere forget Archbyshops if any had bene needefull there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights and heere passe by the lightes them selues And to conclude that he shoulde make mention there of the moates and heere say nothing of the beames there recken vp the gnattes heere keepe silence of the Camels what is this else but that which Aristotle sayth ta mikra horan kai ta megala paroran that is to looke to small things and not to looke to great which if it can not fall into the Lorde let it be a shame to say that the cheefe piller and vpholder of the churche is not expressed in the scripture nor can not bee concluded of it Moreouer those ministeries without the which the churche is fully builded and brought to perfection and complete vnitie are not to be retayned in the churche but with out the ministeries of Archbishop c. the churche maye bee fully builded and broughte to perfection therefore these ministeries are not
muche for the Pope as for the archbyshoppe For although they be two heades yet they stande vpon one necke and therfore the reformed churches whych cutte right did strike them bothe of at one blowe In neyther of the sentences heere alledged out of Cyprian nor in all his works as hath bene before noted is there one worde of an archbyshop and yet M. doctor sayeth that he speaketh of an archbyshop Before he shewed the name wythout the office and now he goeth about to shew the office wythout the name so that he can neuer make bothe the name and office meete together To shape out an archbyshop heere you must needes interpreate the wordes byshop and priest archbyshop and hygh priest for Cyprian maketh mention of no other name of ministerie in those places And if you maye haue thys scope of interpreating it wil not be harde for you to proue that stones be bread and that chaulke is cheese Let vs see what is a byshop or priest I vse the name of priest against my wil but because it is sacerdos you so trāslate it that it may be better vnderstanded what I answere to you I am content to followe you so farre I say let vs consider what is a byshop or priest by S. Cyprian and thereby we shall knowe what an archbyshop he setteth forthe vnto vs Whych thing may appeare manifestly by that which he sayeth in the same Epistle that the byshop that is appoynted into the place of hym that is dead is chosen peaceably by the voyce of all the people I thincke you will not say that all the people through oute the whole prouince or through out a whole diocese as we count a diocese mette togither for that had bene bothe a great disorder and confusion a great charge to the church and in the time of persecution as that was to haue offered the whole church in all the prouince into the mouthe of the wolfe And least peraduenture you shoulde haue thys hole to hide your selfe in saying that it might be procured that in euery church or parishe through out eyther the prouince or diocese the consent of the people might be asked and they tary in their places where they dwel Cyprian in the next epistle doth put the matter out of all question saying that the priest whome he after calleth byshop is chosen in the presence of the people in the eyes of all so that Cyprians byshop whome you will needes haue an archbyshop had neither prouince nor diocese as we call a diocese but only a church or congregation suche as the ministers and pastors wyth vs whych are appoynted vnto seuerall townes Which may further appeare in that Cyprian sayeth that out of one prouince there were 90. bishops whych condemned Priuatus Nowe if there were 90. byshops in one prouince whych met and yet not all that were in that prouince as may appeare out of the same Epistle all men do vnderstand that the scope that Cyprians byshop or archbyshop as you will haue him had was no suche thing as a diocese or a prouince I coulde bring infinite testimonies out of Cyprian to proue that the byshop in his time was nothing else but S. Paules byshop that is one that had cure and charge of one flocke whych was so placed as it might be taught of hym and ouerseene by him and gouerned by hym and of whom in matters pertaining to God it myght depend Furthermore to shape the archbyshop by these places of Cyp. you must be driuen to expound this word church prouince The papistes which cite thys place for the pope as you doe for the archbishop expounde the worde churche heere to be the whole church vniuersal and catholike and in dede although it be falsly expounded so in thys place yet may they doe it wyth more probability and likelyhode then to expound it a prouince forsomuch as these words the church is oftner red both in the scripture and old wryters to signify the whole church then any prouince of one realme But lette Cyprian expounde him selfe what he meaneth by a church heere although that may easely appeare by that whych is spoken of S. Cyprian hys bishop Wheras Cyprian declareth that Cornelius the bishop of the church which was in Rome would not let Felicissimum a Nouation hereticke being caste oute by the byshoppes of Affricke to enter into the church he declareth sufficiently that he meaneth that companye of the faithfull whych were gathered togither at Rome to heare the word and to communicate at the sacramentes For it was not Cornelius part to shutte him out of the prouince neither indeede could he him selfe being not able without hazard by reason of the persecution that then was to tary in any part of the prouince Againe speaking against the Nouatian hereticke he sheweth that throughe hys wicked opinion of denying of repentance to those that were fallen the confession of faults in the churche was hindred Nowe it is manifest that confession was not made through out the prouince but in that particulare church where the partye dwelt that committed the fault Therefore Cyprian vnderstandeth by the name of the church neither diocese as we call diocese and muche les a whole prouince And in the same Epistle speaking of those whych had fallen he sayeth that they durst not come so much as to the thresholde or entry of the churche where he also opposeth the church to the prouince saying that they roue about the prouince and run about to deceiue the brethren Seeing therefore the byshop whych Cyprian speaketh of is nothing else but such as we call pastor or as the common name with vs is parson and his church wherof he is bishop is neither diocese nor prouince but a congregation whych mete togither in one place to be taught of one man what should M. doctor meane to put on this great name of archbyshop vpon so small a byshoppricke as it were Saules great harnes vpon Dauid hys little body or as if a man should set a wide huge porche before a little house And least that M. doctor should say that notwithstanding the bishops had but seuerall churches yet one of them might haue either a title more excellēt then the rest or authority and gouernment ouer the rest that shall be likewise considered out of Cyprian And first for the title and honor of archbishop it appeareth how Cyprian held that as a proud name for that he obiecteth to Florentius as a presumptuous thing for that in beleuing certaine euill reports of hym and misiudging of him he did appoynt him selfe bishop of a bishop and iudge ouer hym which was for the time appoynted of God to be iudge And heerein also I may vse the same reasons which the godly writers of our times vse against the pope to proue that he had no superiority in those dayes ouer other bishops for that the other bishops called him brother and he them called him fellow bishop he
byshops and cleargie in a prouince and if Cyprian will neyther allow of the title of archbyshop nor of the authoritie and office but in playne wordes speaketh agaynst both we may conclude that M. Doctor hath done very vnaduisedly to lay so great waight of the archbyshop vppon S. Cyprians shoulders that wâ—ilnot only not beare any thing of hym but which hath done all that coulde be to make hym goe a foote and hand in hand with hys fellowes There are other reasons which M. Doctor vseth as thys a notable one S. Cyprian speaketh not of the vsurped power of the byshop of Rome therefore he speaketh of the office of an archbyshop and metropolitane It is hard to call thys argument to any head of fallation for it hath not so much as a colour of a reason I thincke it can deceiue no body but your self An other reason is that all the godlyest best learned meÌ„ do expound the place of Cyprian in the 3. epist. of the first booke of an archbyshop The vanitie of thys saying that the godly learned wryters so expound it I haue shewed before and heere it commeth to be considered agayne I will not say that no godly nor learned wryter expoundeth the place of Cyprian of the authoritie of an archbishop But first I desire M. Doctor to set downe but one and then I will leaue it to thy consyderation gentle reader to thincke whether M. Doctor hath red any learned or godly mans exposition to be suche when he hath not red those which are nearest hym I meane our owne countrey men I say he hath not red them because I woulde thinke charitably so of hym rather then that he shoulde haue red them and yet speake vntruely of them and father those things of them which they neuer speake M. Iewell the byshop of Sarisburie expounded thys place and yet dyd neuer expounde it of the office and authoritie of an archbyshop of all the byshops and clergie of the prouince but cleane contrarywise applyeth it to the authoritie that euery byshop had in hys diocesse hys wordes are these Now therefore to draw that thing by violence to one only byshop that is generally spoken of all byshops is a guilefull fetch to misseleade the reader and no simple nor playne dealing Heere you see that M. Iuel doth not vnderstande thys of any archbyshop but of euery byshop M. Nowel Deane of Poules hauing occasion to speake of this place sayth on thys sort So that when he speaketh meaning Cyprian of one byshop one iudge in the churche for the time or of the byshop whych is one and ruleth the church absolutely he meaneth euery byshop in his owne diocesse wythout exception If he speake specially he meaneth the byshop of the citye or diocese wherof he entreateth whether it be the byshop of Rome Carthage or any other place M. Fore also expoundeth thys of euery byshop wythin hys owne churche or diocese You heare the iudgement of these three wryters that can not picke out neyther the name nor the office of an archbyshop out of Cyprians place and yet I thinke you wil not deny but these were learned and godly wryters Now I haue shewed you three I aske once againe of you one godlye and learned wryter that expoundeth it as you doe And by thys time I suppose all men vnderstande what a small friend S. Cyprian is eyther to the name or office of an archbyshop Let vs heare whether Ierome make any more for the archbyshop then did Cyprian The Hebrues doe deriue the name of time of a verbe whych signifyeth to corrupt because in dede it doth corrupt all and as the times are so are meÌ„ which liue in them that euen very good men carye the note of the infection of the times wherin they liue and the streame of the corruption therof being so vehemeÌ„t and forcible doth not only driue before it light things but it cateth also and weareth the very hard and stony rockes and therfore there is not to be loked for such sinceritie at Ierome his hand whych we found in S. Cyprian considering that he liued some ages after Cyprian what time sathan had a great deale more darkned the cleare light of the sonne of the gospell then it was in S. Cyprians time For as those that came nearest vnto the apostles times because they were nearest the light â–ª did see best so those that were further of from these lightes had vntill the time of the manifestation of the sonne of perdition their heauens more darke and cloudy and consequeÌ„tly did see more dimly whych is diligently to be obserued of the reader bothe the better to vnderstand the state of thys question and all other controuersies whych lie betweene vs and the papistes And although Ierome besides his other faultes might haue also in thys matter spoken more soundly yet we shall easely perceiue that he is a great deale further from eyther the title or office of an archbyshop or else from the authority that a byshop hath with vs then he is from the simplicity of the ministery which ought to be and is commended vnto vs by the worde of God. And heere I must put M. Doctor in remembrance howe vnfitly he hath dedicated his boke vnto the churche whych hath so patched it and peeced it of a number of shreds of the doctors that a sentence of the scripture eyther truely or falsely alledged is as it were a Phenix in thys boke If he would haue had the church beleue hym he oughte to haue setled their iudgement and grounded their faith vpon the scriptures whych are the only foundations whervpon the church may build Nowe he doth not only not geue them grounde to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes whych they can not folowe nor come after him For except it be those whych are learned and besides haue the meanes and abilitye to haue the bokes whych are heere cited which are the least and smallest portion of the church how can they know that these things be true whych are alledged and as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay them selues vpon and quiet their conscience in allowing that which M. Doctor would so faine haue them like of Therefore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto the learned and riche whych haue furnished libraries Ierome sayeth that at the first a byshoppe and an Elder whych you call priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed that one should rule ouer the rest Now I say against this order that the bishop shoulde beare rule ouer all that which our sauioure Christ sayth vnto the Pharises from the beginning it was not so and therefore I require that the first order may stande which was that a byshop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie agaynst the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian sayth vnto you
That is true whatsoeuer is first and that is false whatsoeuer is later Ierome and you confesse that thys was first that the byshop was all one with the elder and first also by the word of God then I conclude that that is true You both doe likewise confesse that it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest then I conclude that that is false for all that is false that is later Furthermore Ierome in the same place of Titus sayth after thys sort As the elders know them selues to be subiect by a custome of the church vnto hym that is set ouer them so the byshops must know that they are greater then the elders rather by custome then by any truth of the institution of the Lord and so they ought to gouerne the church in common Now seing that Ierome confesseth that a byshop and an elder by God his institution are all one and that custome of the church hath altered thys institution for the taking away of thys custome and restoring of the Lordes institution I say as our sauiour Christ sayd why doe you breake the commaundementes of God to establishe your owne traditions for the one is the institution of God and the other the tradition of the church and if a mans testimony be so much with M. Doctor let hym heare what the same Tertullian fayth whatsoeuer sauoureth agaynst the truth shall be accompted heresie euen although it be an olde custome Now I will turne M. Doctors owne argument vpon hys head after thys sorte In the apostles tymes there were schismes and heresies but in their tymes there were no archbyshops ordayned to appease them therefore the best meanes of composing of controuersies and keping concorde is not by hauing an archbyshop to be ouer a whole prouince That there was none in the apostles tymes thus it may appeare If there were any they were eyther ordayned by the apostles and their authoritie or else without and besides their authoritie If there were any without and besides their authoritie then they are therefore to be condemned the more because in their tymes they starte vp without their warrant And if the apostles dyd ordayne them there was some vse of them to that wherunto they were ordayned but there was no vse of them to that wherunto they were ordayned therefore the apostles dyd not ordayne them The vse wherunto M. Doctor sayth they were ordayned was to compose controuersies and end schismes but to thys they were not vsed whereupon it followeth that if there were any they were vnprofitable That they were not vsed to any such ende it shall be perceiued by that which followeth At Antioche there rose a great and daungerous heresie that had in a manner infected all the churches which shaked the very foundation of the saluation of Gods children that was whether fayth were sufficient to iustifie without circumcision The matter was disputed of both sides it could not be agreed of What doe they now Doe they ordayne some Archbishop Archprophet Archapostle or any one cheefe to whome they will referre the controuersie or vppon whome they will depend nothing lesse And if they would haue had the controtrouersies ended by one what deuine was there euer or shall there be more fitter for that purpose then S. Paule which was amongst them Why doe they sende abrode for remedy when they had it at home why with great charges and long iourneys which they might haue had without charges or one foote set out of the dore what doe they then They sende Paule and Barnabas to Ierusalem as if the lesser townes should send to the churches of the vniuersities and of London to desire their helpe in the determining of the controuersie And what is Paule and Barnabas ambassage is it to desire the iudgement or minde of some one it must needes be answeared wyth S. Luke that they came to know the resolution of the churche and yet there were the apostles wherof euery one was better able both sharply to see and to iudge incorruptly wythout affection then any archbyshop that euer was If therfore in so great aboundance ouerflowing of the gifts of God and in that time when as controuersies might haue bene referred wythout daunger of error vnto one only thys ministerie of one aboue all was not thought good now when the gifts are les and the danger of error more to make an archbyshop for the deciding of controuersies and auoiding of schismes is a thing so straunge that I am not able to see the reason of it For to whych so euer of the apostles the controuersy had bene referred it is certaine that he would haue geuen a true sentence of it And if any can shew me one man in these times of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce the truth of euery question whych shall arise he shall make me somewhat more fauorable to the archbyshop then presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter should lye only vpon his hand seeing that the apostles whych could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them and seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersy is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mennes minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to cōfute falshode it is euident that S. Paule doth hold forth as it were a buckler against the frowardnes of certaine the authority of the church Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the apostles time and by them how commeth it to pas that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to pas that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are found I hold of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whych are sayd to be the cause of the archbyshop ordaineth a cleane contrary to thys that M. Doctor commendeth For when two or three prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. And how commeth it to pas that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and loking euery day when he should geue vp hys last breath commended vnto the church a perfect and an absolute ministery standing of .v. parts wherin he maketh mention not one word of an archbyshop and sayeth further that that ministery is able to entertain the perfect vnity and knitting togither of the church Do not all these things speake or rather cry that there was not so much as a step of an archbyshop in the apostles times And if you will say that the apostles did ordaine archbyshops as you haue in dede sayd do now againe when as there is not one word in the wrytings of them I pray you tell vs how
red more of him then you For I haue red ouer his boke of Martyrs and so I thinke did neuer you For if you had red so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue ben hasty to snatch at this place he would haue taught you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetch your authorities and would haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitanes bishops and other degrees whych you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times somtimes you can not tell whē were not in Higinus time which was a. 180. yeres after Christ I perceiue you fear M. Foxe is an ennemy vnto your archbyshop and primate therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupt hym wyth hys praise and to seeke to drawe hym if it were possible vnto the archbyshop and if not yet at the least that he would be no ennemy if he would not nor could not be his frend You make me suspect that your praise is not harty but pretended because you do so often so bitterly speake against all those that will not receiue the cap and surplice and other ceremonies wherof M. Fox declareth his great misliking For answer vnto the place because I remēber it not nor meane not to read ouer the whole boke to seeke it I say first as I said before that there may be some thing before or after which may geue the solution to this place especially seeing M. Foxe in another place prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfet he vseth thys reason because the fifthe Canon of the sayd Epistles solemnely entreateth of the difference betwene primates metropolitanes and archbyshops whych distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauor more of ambition thē persecution Moreouer I say that M. Foxe wryting a story doth take greater paine and loketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whom then how iustly or vniustly how conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sincerity of the gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whych hath trauailed so much and so profitably to that end will not haue hys authority or name therin to bring any preiudice Now wil I also wyne with you and leaue it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader how well out of the scriptures councels wryters old and new you haue proued either the lawfulnes at all of the names of archbishops patriarches archdeacons primates or of the lawfulnes of the office of them and of byshops whych be in our times And for as much as I haue purposed to answer in one place that which is scattered in diuers I will heere answere halfe a shete of paper whych is annexed of late vnto thys boke put forthe in the name and vnder the credite of the B. of Salisbury Wherin I wil say nothyng of those byting sharpe words which are giuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth archbyshops and archdeacons nouices partly in the end when he calleth them children and the doctrine of the gospell wantonnes c. If he had liued for hys learning and grauitye and otherwyse good desertes of the church in defending the cause therof agaynst the papistes we coulde haue easely borne it at hys handes nowe he is deade and layde vp in peace it were agaynste all humanitye to dygge or to breake vp hys graue only I wil leaue it to the consideration of the reader vpon those things whych are alledged to iudge whether it be any wantonnes or noueltye whych is confirmed by so graue testimonyes of the auncient worde of god Vnto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alledged he answeareth cleane contrary to that whych M. Doctor sayth that we haue nowe neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor Prophets wherevppon he wold conclude that that place is no perfect paterne of the ministery in the church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it nedefull that wee should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a time so that the wante of those nowe is no cause whye the minysteries there recited be not sufficient for the accomplyshment and full fynishing of the church nor cause whye anye other minysteries should be added besydes those whych are there recyted Afterward he saith that neither byshop nor elder are reckned in that place The pastor is there reckened vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and byshop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifye one thyng And as for those elders whych doe only gouerne they are made mention of in other places the apostles purpose being to recken vp here only those minysteries whych are conuersant in the worde as I haue before alledged and therefore the byshop and elder whych wyth gouernment teache also are there contained After that he sayeth there is no catechista if there be a pastor or as some thynke Doctor there is one whych bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther doth it pertayne to any other in the churche and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion then vnto eyther the pastor or doctor how so euer in some times and places they haue made a seuerall office of it And where he sayth that there is neyther deacon nor reader mentioned for the deacon I haue answeared that s Paul speaketh there only of those functiōs whych are occupyed both in teachyng and gouernyng the churches and therfore there was no place there to speake of a deacon and as for the reader it is no such office in the churche whych the minister may not doe And if eyther he haue not leysure or his strength and voyce wil not serue hym first to read some long time and afterwarde to preache it is an easye matter to appoynt some of the elders or deacons or some other graue man in the church to that purpose as it hathe bene practised in the churches in times past and is in the churches reformed in oure dayes without making any new order or office of the ministery Where he sayth that by thys reason we should haue no churches pulpits schooles nor vniuersities it is first easely answeared that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all things necessary for the churche but only of all necessary ecclesiasticall functions whych do both teach gouerne in the church and then I haue already shewed that there were both churches and pulpits As for scholes and vniuersities it is sufficient commaundement of them in that it is commaunded that bothe the magistrates and pastors should be learned for he that commaundeth that they shoulde be learned commaundeth those things and those meanes wherby they may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Testament As in the boke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the vniuersity men and those
whych handled the pen of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battell against the enemies of god And in the boke of Samuel and of the Kings where Nayothe and Bethel Ierycho and a place beyond Iordan are specified places whych were scholes or vniuersities where the schollers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning The continuaunce of whych scholes and vniuersities amongste the people of God maye be easely gathered of that whych S. Luke wryteth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certen Colledges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one Colledge to receiue the Iewes and Proselites whych came out of Cilicia an other for those that came out of Alexandria c. to study at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shew such euidence for archbyshops and archdeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I wil not deny but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Furthermore he sayeth that the church is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an archbyshop or archdeacon can be shewed we will not striue for the name but for so much as all the nedefull offices of the church togither wyth their names are mentioned in the scripture it is truly sayde that bothe the offices and names of archbyshop and archdeacon being not only not contained in them but also condēned ought to be banished out of the churche Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any waight in his words nameth an archb I haue before shewed what waighte there is in his woordes and I refuse not that he be weyghed wyth the byshops owne weightes whych he geueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacye and in the. 223. and 224. pages by the whych waightes appeareth that thys Anacletus is not only lyght but a plaine counterfait The second reason whych sayeth that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all thyngs needefull appoynted by the commaundement of God the byshop sayeth he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothyng les ment then that the church vnder the gospell should haue all those thyngs that that church had or shoulde haue nothing whych that had not but thys therevpon is concluded that the Lord whych was so carefull for that as not to omit the least would not be so careles for this church vnder the gospel as to omit the greatest And where he sayeth that there was then whych was called highe priest and was ouer all the rest he did well know that the cause therof was because he was a figure of Christe and dyd represent vnto the people the cheefetye and superioritye of oure sauioure Christe whych was to come and that oure sauioure Christe being come there is nowe no cause why there should be any such preheminence geuen vnto one and further that it is vnlawfull that there shoulde be any suche vnles it be lawfull to haue one head ▪ byshop ouer all the church For it is knowne that that prieste was the heade priest ouer all the whole Churche whych was during hys time vnto our sauioure Christe And as for those titles cheefe of the sinagogue cheefe of the sanctuary cheefe of the house of God I say that that maketh muche agaynst archbyshoppes and archdeacons for when as in steade of the sinagogue and of the sanctuarie and of the house of God or Temple are come particulare churches and congregations by this reason it foloweth that there shoulde be some cheefe not in euery prouince or diocese but in euery congregation and in dede so ought there to be certen cheefe in euery cōgregation whych should gouerne and rule the rest And as for the cheefe of the families of the Leuites and cheefe of the families of the priestes the same was obserued in all other tribes of Israell as a ciuile thyng And by all these princes ouer euery tribe and family as by the Prince of the whole land God did as it were by diuers liuely pictures unprint in their vnderstanding the cheefety and domination of our sauior Christ Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoyntment of their gouernors were done of Dauid by the aduise of the prophets Gad Nathan whych receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whych they deluiered to Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that archbyshops and archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then thys allegation hath some force but now being not only not commaunded but also as I haue shewed forbiddē euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the archbyshop and archdeacon For if Dauid being such a notable personage and as it were an angell of God durst not take vpon him to bring into the church any orders or pollicies not only not against the word of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shall dare to be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the cheefe office of the church and to alter the pollicy that God hath established by hys seruauntes the apostles And where the byshop sayth it is knowne and confessed that there wanted many things to the perfection of the church of the Iewes truely I do not know nor can not confes that that church wanted any thing to the perfection of that estate whych the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauior Christ and if there were any thing wanting it was not for want of good lawes and pollicies wherof the question is but for want of due execution of them whych we speake not of For the two last reasons against the archbyshop and archdeacon although I be well acquainted wyth diuers that fauor this cause yet I did neuer heare them before in my life and I beleeue they cannot be proued to be hys reasons whose they are supposed to be and whych did set downe that proposition that the byshop confuteth Notwithstanding the former of these two seemeth to haue a good probability and to be grounded of that place of Logicke that sheweth that according as the subiect or substance of any thing is excellent so are those things that are annexed and adioyned vnto it But because I wold the simplest should vnderstand what is sayd or written I will willingly abstaine from such reasons the termes wherof are not easely perceiued but of those whych be learned And as for the answer whych the byshop maketh that in place of apostles prophets the gifts of tongues of healing and of gouernment are brought in vniuersities scholes byshops and archbyshops for scholes and vniuersities I haue shewed they haue bene alwayes and therfore can not come in to supply the roume of the apostles and prophets And
bowes because the Paganes dyd vse so and that they should not rest from their laboures those dayes that the paganes dyd that they should not keepe the first day of euery moneth as they dyd * An other councell decreed that the christians should not celebrate feastes on the birth dayes of the Martyrs because it was the maner of the heathen whereby it appeareth that both of singulare men and of councels in making or abolyshing of Ceremonies heede hath beene taken that the Christians shoulde not be lyke vnto the Idolaters no not in those things which of them selues are most indifferent to be vsed or not vsed It were not harde to shewe the same considerations in the seuerall things which are mentioned of in thys admonition as for example in the ceremonies of prayer which is heere to bee handled wee reade that Tertullian would not haue the Christians sitte after they had prayed because the idolaters dyd so but hauing shewed thys in generall to be the pollicy of God first and of hys people afterwarde to put as muche difference as can be commodiously betwene the people of God and others whych are not I shal not neede to shewe the same in the particulares Furthermore as the wisedome of God hathe thoughte it the best way to keepe hys people from infection of idolatry to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to kepe hys people in the vnity of the truth there is no better way then that they should be moste like one to an other and that as much as possibly may be they shuld haue all the same ceremonies And therfore S. Paule to establishe this order in the church of Corinth that they shoulde make their gatherings for the pore vpon the firste day of the Saboth whych is our sunday alleageth thys for a reason that he had so ordained in other churches so that as children of one father and seruauntes of one family he will haue all the churches not only haue one diet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuery in vsing the same ceremonies Thys rule did the great councell of Nice follow when it ordained y where certaine at the feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason wherof is added whych is that one custome oughte to be kepte throughout all the churches It is true that the diuersity of ceremonies ought not to cause the churches to dissent one wyth an other but yet it maketh much to the auoyding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnity not only in doctrine but also in Ceremonies Nowe we see plainely that as the forme of oure seruice and Leyturgie commeth to neare that of the papistes so it is farre different from that of other churches reformed and therfore in bothe these respectes to be amended An other faulte there is in the whole seruice or Lyturgie of Englande for that it maintaineth an vnpreaching ministery and so consequently an vnlawfull ministery I say it maintaineth not so muche in that it appoynteth a number of psalmes and other prayers and chapters to be red whych may occupye the time whych is to be spent in preaching wherin notwythstanding it ought to haue bene more wary considering that the deuil vnder this coloure of long prayer did thus in the kingdome of antichriste banish preaching I say not so much in that poynt as for that it requireth necessarily nothyng to be done by the minister whych a childe of ten yeare olde can not doe as well and as lawfully as that man wherewyth the boke contenteth it selfe Neyther can it be shifted in saying this is done for want of able men to be ministers for it may be easely answeared that first the want of sufficient ministers ought to be no cause for men to breake the vnchāgeable lawes of God whych be that none maye be made minister of the churche whych can not teache that none minister the sacraments whych do not preache For althoughe it might be graunted whych thing I woulde not denye no not when there are enough sufficient ministers that they may appoynt some godly graue man whych can do nothing else but reade to be a reader in the churche yet that may not be graunted that they maye make of one that can doe nothyng but reade a minister of the gospell or one whych may haue power to minister the sacramentes Besides that howe can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers when as there be put out of the ministerye men that be able to serue God in that calling and those put in their roumes whych are not able when there are numbers also whych are fit to serue and neuer sought for nor once required to take any ministery vpon them If therfore it were lawfull to plead want of able ministers for this dumbe ministery whych is altogither vnlawfull yet woulde thys plea neuer be good vntill suche time as bothe those were restored whych are put out and all other sought forth and called vpon whych are fit for that purpose Againe it can not be sayde iustly that they haue taken these reading ministers vntill suche time as better may be gotten for if the church could procure able ministers and should desire that they mighte be ordained ouer them they can not obtaine that considering that these reading ministers haue a free hold and an estate for terme of their liues in those churches of the whych they are such ministers so that by thys meanes the sheepe are not only committed to an idoll shepheard I might say a wolfe and speake no otherwise then Aug. speaketh in that a not preaching minister hath entrance into the church but the dore also is shutte vpon him and sparred against any able minister that might haply be found oute There is a third fault whych likewise appeareth almost in the whole body of this seruice and Liturgie of England and that is that the profit whych might haue come by it vnto the people is not reaped Whereof the cause is for that he whych readeth is not in some places heard and in the most places not vnderstāded of the people through the distance of place betweene the people and the minister so that a great part of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hathe curssed them or blessed them whether he hath red in Latine or in English all the whych riseth vpon the words of the boke of seruice whych are that the minister should stand in the accustomed place For therevpon the minister in saying morning and euening prayer sitteth in the chauncell wyth hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secreate talke wyth God whych the people myghte not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after morning prayer for saying a nother number of prayers he climeth vp to the further end of the chauncel and runneth as farre from the people as the wall wil
let him as though there were some variance betwene the people and the minister or as though he were afraide of some infection of plage And in dede it renueth the memory of the Leuitical priesthode whych did withdrawe himselfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinnes of the people Likewise for Mariage he cometh backe againe into the body of the church and for baptisme vnto the church dore what comelines what decency what edifying is thys Decencie I say in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and after that sort where he can worst be harde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the primitiue church both the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sitting amongste the rest to the ende he myght be the better heard rose not that only but that he stode in the midst of the people that his voyce might as much as might be come indifferently to all their eares and so standing both prayed and preached Now if it be said for the chapters Letany there is commaundement geuen that they shuld be red in the body of the church in deede it is true and therof is easely perceiued this disorder whych is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end and partly in the further end of the chauncell For seeing that those are red in the body of the church that the people may both heare and vnderstand what is red what shuld be the cause why the rest should be red farther of vnles it be that either those things are not to be heard of them or at the least not so necessary for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or midst of the church And if it be further sayd that the boke leaueth that to the discretion of the ordinarye and that he may reforme it if there be any thing amis then it is easely answered again that besides that it is against reason that the commoditye and edifying of the church should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduise and discretion it should be well or euell wyth the church Besides this I say we see by experience of the disorders whych are in many churches and dioceses in thys behalfe how that if it were lawfull to commit such authority vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill quitten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience wherof being so easely sene and so easely reformed there is notwythstanding so greate and so generall an abuse And the end of the order in the boke is to be obserued which is to kepe the praiers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell whych how maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole Liturgy or in the most part of it both that I may haue no nede to repete the same in the particulares and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so ofte as M. Doctor sayeth very vnskilfully and vnlike a deuine whence so euer thys or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the church of Christ Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whych is prescribed wherin the authors of the admonition declare that their meaning is not to disalow of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys forme that we haue For they expound themselues in the additions vnto the first part of the admonition It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himselfe to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyrs testimony which notwithstanding hath not one word of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers He sayth in dede the auncient fathers say that there hathe bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the churches although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easely that M. doctor speaketh thys rather by coniecture or that he hath heard other mē say so for so much as that Doctor whych he hathe chosen out to speake for all the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptised they pray for them selues for hym that is baptised and for all men that they may be mete to learne the truth and to expres it in their honest conuersation and that they be found to kepe the commaundements that they may attaine to eternal life but is this to say the there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chefe poynts vpon the whych they conceiued their prayers If you had alleaged thys to proue what were the matters or principall poyntes that the primitiue church vsed to pray for you had alleaged thys to purpose but to alleage it for a profe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mētioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer whych is the asking of our petitions in the name and through the intercession of our sauior Christ without the whych there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that either you litle know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as muche as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the church let that go thys that I haue sayd is to shew that when M. Doctor hapneth of a good cause whych is very seldome in this boke yet then he marreth it in the handling After he affirmeth that there can be nothing shewed in the whole boke whych is not agreeable vnto the word of God. I am very lothe to enter into this field albeit M. Doctor dothe thus prouoke me bothe because the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstand that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynte as for that some fewe professors of the gospell being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Notwythstanding my duetie of defending the truthe and loue whych I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrey constraineth me being thus prouoked to speake a fewe woordes more particularly of the fourme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof doe appeare it may please the Queenes maiestie and her honourable Councell wyth those of the Parliamente whome the Lorde hathe vsed as singulare instrumentes to deliuer thys realme from the hotte furnaice and iron yoke of the popishe Egipte to procure also that the corruptions whych we haue broughte from them as those wysh whych we being so deepely dide and stained haue not so easely shaken
of may be remoued from amongst vs to the end that we being nearelyer both ioyned vnto the sincerity of the gospell and the pollicy of other reformed churches may therby be ioyned nearer wyth the Lord and may be set so far from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thether againe our aduersaries whych desire it and by this too much agreement with them and too little wyth the reformed churches hope for it may not only be deceiued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that whych they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth whervnto they are now disobedient And as for the papistes triumphe in thys case I shall not greatly neede to feare it considering that their discords and contentions are greater and that our strife is because we would be farther from them For the other that profes the gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labor to other end then I bestowe it and that they keepe them selues in their callings commit the matter by prayer vnto the Lord leauing to the ministers of the word of god and to the magistrates that whych appertaineth vnto them To come therfore to touch thys matter I answer that there is fault in the matter and fault in the fourme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and thyngs there are wanting in the order that shuld be Of the first sort is that we may euermore be defended from all aduersity Now for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all aduersity and that euermore it semeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceiued being no prayer of faith or of the whych we can assure our selues that we shall obtaine it For if it be sayd that by the worde aduersity is meant all euill we know that it hath no such signification neither in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues whych vse the same worde in common wyth vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and calamitye from all the whych we may not desire alwayes to be deliuered And whatsoeuer can be alledged for the defence of it yet euery one that is not contentious may see that it needeth some caution or exception In the collect vpon the twelfth sonday after Trinitie sonday and likewise in one of those whych are to be sayd after the Offertorie as it is termed is done request is made that God would geue those thyngs whych we for oure vnworthynes dare not aske whych carieth wyth it still the note of the popishe seruile feare and sauoureth not of that confidence and reuerēt familiaritie that the children of God haue thorough Christ wyth their heauenly father For as we dare not wythout our sauioure Christ aske so much as a crumme of bread so there is nothing whych in hys name we dare not aske being needefull for vs and if it be not needefull why should we aske it And if all the prayers were gathered together and referred to these two heades of Gods glory and of the thyngs whych pertaine to this present life I can make no Geometricall and exact measure but verely I beleue there shal be found more then a third part of the prayers whych are not psalmes and texts of scriptures spent in praying for and praying against the commodities and incommodities of this life whych is contrary to all the arguments or contents of the prayers of the churche whych are sette downe in the scripture and especially of our sauior Christes prayer by the whych ours ought to be directed which of .vij. petitions bestoweth one only that wayes And this these foresayd prayers do not only in generall words but by deducting the commodities and incommodities of thys life into their particulare kindes we pray for the auoiding of those dangers which are nothyng neare vs as from lightning and thundering in the midst of winter from storme and tempest when the weather is most faire and the seas most calme c. It is true that vpon some vrgent calamity a prayer may and ought to be framed whych may beg eyther the commodity for want whereof the Church is in distres or the turning away of that mischeefe whych eyther approcheth or whych is alreadye vppon it but to make those prayers whych are for the present time and daunger ordinarye and dailye prayers I can not hetherto see any either scripture or example of the primitiue churche And heere for the simples sake I will set downe after what sorte thys abuse crept into the church There was one Mamercus bishop of Vienna whych in the time of great earthquakes whych were in Fraunce instituted certaine supplications whych the Grecians we of them call the Letany whych concerned that matter there is no doubte but as other discommodities rose in other countreys they likewise had prayers accordingly Nowe Pope Gregorie eyther made himselfe or gathered the supplications that were made againste the calamities of euery countrey and made of them a great Letany or supplication as Platina calleth it and gaue it to be vsed in all churches whych thing albeit all churches might do for the time in respect of the case of the casamity whych the churches suffered yet there is no cause why it should be perpetuall that was ordained but for a time and why all landes should pray to be deliuered from the incommodities that some land hathe bene troubled wyth The like may be sayd of the gloria patri and the Athanasius Crede it was first brought into the churche to the ende that nen thereby should make an open profession in the church of the diuinitie of the sonne of God against the detestable opinion of Arius and his disciples wherwith at that time maruellously swarmed almost the whole christendome now that it hath pleased the Lord to quench that fire there is no such cause whye these things should be in the church at the least why that gloria patri should be so often repeated Moreouer to make Benedictus Magnificat and Nunc dimittis ordinarye and daily prayers seemeth to be a thing not so conuenient considering that they do no more concerne vs thē all other scriptures do and then doth the Aue Maria as they called it For although they were prayers of thanks geuing in Simeon ʒacharie and the blessed virgin Mary yet can they not be so in vs whych haue not receiued lyke benefites they may be added to the number of Psalmes and so song as they be but to make daily and ordinary prayers of them is not wythout some inconuenience and disorder And so haue I answeared vnto those thyngs whych are contained in the 202. 203. pages sauing that I must admonish the reader that wheras you will proue that we ought to haue an ordinarye prayer to be deliuered from danger of thunder lightnings c. because there are examples
example and to follow it or that for as much as he breaketh the law which is not subiect vnto it and which he made not for hym selfe that therefore we may breake the law whereunto we be subiect and to whom it is geuen But we must goe in the broade hygh way of the commaundement and of the ordinary vsage of God in gouerning hys church and not in the biepath of certayne singulare examples which haue beene in diuers ages And as often as God hath vsed thys extraordinary meanes of the ministery of women so often also hath he confirmed their calling eyther by miracle or some wonderfull issue or with some other singulare note and marke wherby he hath made their calling otherwyse straunge and monstruous most certayne and vndoubted to all men There is greater difficultie then M. Doctor mentioneth in the wordes of S. Paule where he sayth a woman praying or Prophesying ought to be vailed and haue her head couered in which words it seemeth that the Apostle lycenceth a woman to prophecie so that shee do it with her head couered But to hym that shall diligently consyder the place it shall appeare that the women of Corinth dyd passe the boundes of modesty and of shamefastnesse two wayes whereof one was that they came into the congregation contrary to the custome of those countreys with theyr heades faces vncouered an other was that they also tooke vpon them to speake in the congregation both which faultes S. Paule condemned but in their seuerall and proper places Although therfore speaking agaynst the abuse of vncouering theyr head he doth not condemne their boldnesse in teaching yet he dyd not therefore approue it the confutation whereof he reserued to a more commodious place But sayeth hee if women do baptise it is in priuate houses I haue shewed before that they may not baptise at all therefore not in priuate houses besides that that I haue in the Reply vnto the section in the one and twenty page shewed how it is not lawfull neyther to preach the word nor to minister the Sacramentes in priuate corners for the which matter of not ministring the Sacramentes in priuate houses to the authors of the Admonition citing the eleuenth Chapter of the first Epistle vnto the Corrinthians M. Doctor answeareth that he reproueth the prophanation of the supper by banketting and contempt of their brethren and exhorteth to tary one for an other But what is thys to the purpose we aske not M. Doctor the interpretation of thys place as we doe not of all the rest which he interpreateth where there is no occasyon in the world to interpreate them being of them selues very cleare and the interpretation which is brought neuer almost making ▪ any thing for the solution of that which is obiected which I desire the Reader to marke throughout hys whole booke For what if S. Paule reproue the prophanation of the supper of the Lord doth it follow therefore that he doth not geue to vnderstand that the Sacrament should be administred in a common assembly What if hee exhorte to tary one for an other therefore dothe he not dehorte from celebrating of the sacrament in a priuate house And surely me thincke you can not be so ignoraunt as you make your selfe that you should not vnderstande their argument and therefore I thinke you do rather dissemble it as you doe in diuers other places For all men may easely perceyue that as S. Paule opposeth the supper of the Lord to the common supper hys banket to the common banket so he opposeth there manifestly the church and congregation vnto the pryuate house and declareth that as the common supper or banket ought to be kept at theyr houses so the Lordes supper and hys banket ought to be celebrated in the congregation To the Admonition obiecting in the ninetie and two page that Iohn baptised openly amongst the congregation he answeareth and sayth that it may bee as well concluded that we should baptise only in the riuer of Iordane and none but those that be of age By which saying he geueth to vnderstand that to baptise in the church hath no greater necessitie thē the baptising in Iordane nor it skilleth no more whether baptisme be mynistred in the publike assembly thē it is necessary or skilleth whether we be baptised in the riuer of Iordane that the baptisme of yong infantes hath no better groundes then priuate baptisme hath The later whereof both being absurde is too too iniurious vnto the baptisme of yong infantes For as of our sauioure Christes preachinges in publyke places and refusing pryuate places we doe gather that the preaching of the woorde ought to bee publike euen so of S. Iohns preaching and baptising in open meetings wee conclude that bothe preaching and baptysing oughte to bee in publike assemblies And although to some one action there concurre dyuers things which partly are not to be followed at all partly are indifferent to be followed or not followed yet neyther the vnlawfulnesse of the one to be followed nor the indifferency of the other can hynder but there are other some things in the same action necessary to bee followed Which may be considered both of the place of the Actes touching the election where I haue proued some things there mentioned to be necessary to be done in elections although other some be not conuenient nor fit for vs to follow And I haue shewed it also by M. Caluine which Maister Doctor alleageth for hym selfe and by Cyprian whose authoritie he woulde be loth to reiect I am sure least he should lose the opynion of hys studiousnesse of the olde wryters which he hunteth so dyligently after in thys booke and wherof he maketh the authors of the Admonition so great contemners And it is not harde to shew the same in .xx. places more as in S. Mathew and S. Luke where as there are dyuers things not to be followed of the mynisters now other things indifferent to be followed so are there also other things that be as well commaunded to all the mynisters that now are as they were then eyther to the 12. or 70. disciples And other reason he addeth there that S. Peter baptised in Cornelius house But M. Doctor maketh not the best choyse of hys argumentes for S. Paules baptysing in the house of the gayler had bene more fit for hym For vnto hys place it may be easely answeared that Cornelyus hauing so great a family as it is lyke he had and besides that dyuers souldiours vnderneath hym and further hys freendes and hys acquaintance which he had called had a competent number and as many as woulde make a congregation and as coulde commodiously be preached vnto in one place But the answere to both these examples and other suche lyke as that S. Paule baptysed the house of Stephana is easie For there being persecutions at that tyme so that it was not safe neyther for the mynister nor for
remeÌ„bred first that the minister liueth not any more of offerings Secondarily that the paiment of the ministers wages is not so conuenient either in the church or before all the people And thirdly y therby we fal into y fault whych we condemne in popery that is y besides the ordinary liuing apoynted for the seruice of the priests in the whoâ—e they toke for their seueral seruices of masse baptisme burying churching c. seueral rewards which thing being of the seruice boke wel abolished in certain other things I caÌ„not see what good cause there shuld be to retain it in this and certain other Now wheras m. D. saith that the place of the. 15. of the Acts alledged by the admonition maketh nothing against this he shuld haue considered that if it be a Iewish ceremony as they suppose it it is to be abolished vtterly For it being shewed there the all the ceremonial law of Moses is don away through our sauior Christ this also a part thereof must nedes be therin comprised And whereas he saith that it being nothing els but a thanks geuing for her deliuerance can not be therfore but christian very godly I answer the if there shuld be solemne and expres geuing of thanks in the church for euery benefit eyther equal or greater theÌ„ thys whych any singular person in the church dothe receiue we should not only haue no preaching of the word nor ministring of the sacrameÌ„ts but we shuld not haue so much leysure as to do any corporal or bodily worke but shuld be like vnto those heretikes which wer called of the Syriake word Messalians or continual prayers whych did nothing els but pray For the Psalme 121. spoken of in the 155. page it being shewed that it is not meete to haue any such solemne thankes geuing it is needeles to debate of the Psalme wherewyth the thankes geuing shuld be made And wheras in 101. and. 102. pages vnto the admonition obiecting that the comming in the vaile to the church more then theÌ„ at other times is a token of shame or some folly committed M. D. iestingly leaueth the matter to the womeÌ„s answer A little true knowledge of diuinity would haue taught him that the bringing in or vsurping wythout authority any ceremony in the congregation is bothe an earnester matter then may be iested at and a waightier then shoulde be permitted vnto the discretion of euery woman considering that the same hath bene so horribly abused in time of poperye The holy dayes folow of whych M. Doctor sayth that so they be not vsed superstitiously or vnprofitably they may be commauÌ„ded I haue shewed before that they were If they were so indifferent as they are made yet being kept of the papistes whych are the enemies of God they ought to be abolished And if it were as easy a matter to pull oute the superstition of the obseruing of those holydayes out of mennes heartes as it is to protest and to teache that they are not commaunded for any religion to be put in them or for any to make conscience of the obseruing of them as thoughe there weresome necessary worshyp of God in the keping of them then were they much more tollerable But when as the continuance of them doth norishe wicked superstition in the mindes of men and that the doctrine whych shuld remedy the superstition through the fewnes skarcitye of able ministers can not come to the most part of them whych are infected wyth this disease and that also where it is preached the frute therof is in part hindred whylest the common people attend oftentymes rather to that whych is done theÌ„ to that whych is taught being a thyng indifferent as it is sayd it ought to be abolyshed as that whych is not only not fittest to holde the people in the sincere worshypping of God but also as that whych keepeth them in their former blindnes and corrupt opinions whych they haue conceyued of such holy dayes And if they had bene neuer abused neyther by the Papistes nor by the Iewes as they haue bene and are daily yet suche making of holy dayes is neuer wythout some great daunger of brynging in some euill and corrupt opinions into the mindes of men I will vse an example in one and that the chefe of holy dayes most generally of longest time obserued in the church whych is the feast of Easter whych was kept of some more dayes of some fewer How many thousands are there I will not say of the ignorant papistes but of those also whych professe the gospell whych when they haue celebrated those dayes with dilygent heede taken vnto their life and wyth some earnest deuotion in praying and hearing the word of God do not by and by thinke that they haue well celebrated the feast of Easter and yet haue they thus notably deceiued them selues For S. Paul teacheth that the celebrating of the feast of the christians Easter is not as the Iewes Easter was for certen dayes but sheweth that we must keepe thys feast all the dayes of oure life in the vnleauened bread of sincerity and of truth By whych we see that the obseruing of the feast of Easter for certain dayes in the yeare doth pul out of our mindes or euer we be aware the doctrine of the gospell and causeth vs to rest in that neare consideration of our dueties for the space of a few dayes which should be extended to alour life But besides the incommodities that rise of making such holy dayes and coÌ„tinuing of those whych are so horribly abused where it is confessed that they are not necessary besides this I say the matter is not so indifferent as it is made I confes that it is in the power of the churche to appoynt so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whych the congregation shal assemble to heare the word of God and receiue the sacraments and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thinke good according to those rules whych are before alleaged But y it hath power to make so many holy dayes as we haue wherin no man may worke any parte of the day and wherin men are commaunded to cease from their daily vocations of plowing and exercising their handy crafts c. that I deny to be in the power of the church For proufe wherof I will take the fourth commaundement and no other interpretation of it then M. doctor alloweth of in the. 174. page whych is that God licenseth and leaueth it at the liberty of euery man to worke sixe dayes in the weeke so that he rest the seuenth daye Seeing that therefore that the Lord hath left it to all men at libertye that they myght labor if they thinke good sixe dayes I say the church nor no man can take thys liberty away from them and driue them to a necessary rest of the body And if it be lawfull to abridge the liberty of the church in
doe helpe to nourish the fayth which commeth by preaching yet thys is geuen to the preaching cath exochen that is by excellency and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary meanes to worke by in the hartes of the hearers The beholding of the creatures the consideration of the making of the world and of Gods wisdome and wonderfull loue appearing in them doth nourish and strengthen fayth and yet may it not therefore in efficacy be compared to the preaching of the word of god And to know that the worde of God preached hath more force and is more effectuall then when it is red it is to be obserued whereunto the preaching is compared It is called a lifting or heauing vp of our sauiour Christ Lyke vnto the displaying of a banner as the serpent was lift vp in the wildernes As therefore that which is lyfted vp on hygh is better and easelyer seene of a great company then when it standeth or lyeth vpon the grounde or in some valley or low place so the preaching of the gospell doth offer sooner and easlyer the truth thereof vnto the fayth which is the eye of the hearer then when it is red The same also may bee sayde in that the preaching is called a cutting of the worde of God for as when the meate is cut and shred it nourisheth more then when it is not so so lykewyse it is in preaching and reading And that whiche is brought by the authors of the Admonition and so scornefully hurled away of Maister Doctor that S. Paule compareth the preaching vnto planting and watering is a very notable place to proue that there is no saluation without preaching For as the husbandman receyueth no frute vnlesse he both plant and water that which is planted euen so there is no saluation to be looked for where there is no preaching And to thys also may bee well referred that the preaching is called of Saynt Luke an opening of the scriptures whereby it is declared that they be as it were shutte or clasped or sealed vp vntill such tyme as they bee by exposition and declaration of them opened It may bee that God doth sometymes worke fayth by reading only especially wher preaching cannot bee and so hee doth sometymes without reading by a wonderfull worke of hys spirite but the ordinary wayes whereby God regenerateth hys children is by the word of God whiche is preached And therfore Salomon sayeth that where Prophesie whiche is not a bare readyng but an exposytion and applycation of the scriptures fayleth there the people pearyshe It is true the woorde bothe preached and red is all one as the fyre couered wyth ashes is the same when it is discouered But â—s when the fire is styrred vppe and discouered it geueth more heate then when it is not so the word of God by preaching and interpreating as it were styrred vp blowen maketh a greater flame in the harts of the hearers then when it is red The reason wherof is not in the word which is al one red preached but in y â— â—â— pleaseth the Lorde to worke more effectually wyth the one then with the other thereby approuing and authorysing that meanes and wayes which he especially ordayned for vs to be saued by Of infinite examples take one of the Enuche which although he had bene at Ierusalem and returning home was reading of the Prophet Esay yet he beleeued not vntill Phillip came and preached vnto hym which I neyther say to disalow reading of the scripture which is very profitable nor yet to strengthen the handes of the papistes which to banyshe the reading of the scriptures obiect the hardnesse and difficultie of the scriptures as M. Doctor doth most slaunderously vnbrotherly surmise of the authors of the Admonition but that it may appeare what a grose and a palpable error thys is that the reading of the scripture should be as effectuall as the preaching of it which God hath appoynted to be the especiall and singulare meanes to saue those whome he hath appoynted to saluation And what is thys else but to condemne the wisdome of God in ordeyning pastors and doctors to bee contynuall functions in the churches and in so carefully commending them vnto the church of the which notwithstanding there is no vse if reading be as good as preaching And although thys be very grose yet in the. 163. page where he goeth about to shew the profite of reading the scriptures in the church he is yet more absurde For there he sayeth that it may bee that some men be more edifyed by the simple reading of the scriptures then by sermons In deede if a man sleepe the sermon tyme and wake the reading time or be otherwyse deafe at the one and attentife and heedye at the other I will not deny but he may be more edifyed at the simple reading then at the sermon vnlesse it be in thys and such lyke case I know not how it may be tute that M. Doctor sayth And in deede it is as much to say that it may be that the meanes that God hath ordayned to bee the fittest and meetest to call men to saluation is not the fittest meetest meanes which a man should not once so much as thinke of without trembling and shaking euery ioynte of hym And now I thinke by thys tyme M. Doctor knoweth hys answere to hys second question which is whether reading be not preaching And if this be not sufficient that I haue said I would aske gladly of hym whether all readers be preachers and whether whosoeuer readeth preacheth for if it be true which he sayeth that reading is preaching then that is lykewyse true that all those which read preach and so a childe of 4. or 5. yeares olde is able to preach because he is able to reade And least he shoulde seeme to be thus euill aduised without some reason in the. 159. page he asketh whether if a man wryte hys sermon after reade it in the boke that readyng be preaching Heere is hard shift What if I graunted that it is preaching yet I deny that therefore he that readeth an other mans sermon preacheth and further I say that if there be any such as being able to preach for his knowledge yet for fault eyther of vtterance or memory can not do it but by readyng that which he hath written it is not conuenyent that he should be a mynister in the church For S. Paule doth not require only that the byshop or minister should be learned in the mysteries of the gospell such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in hys study the sense of the scripture but one which is apt and fitte to teach And the Prophet Malachie sheweth that he must haue the law not in hys papers but in hys lippes noting thereby that it is necessary to haue the gift of vtteraunce and Esay the Prophet saying that God had geuen hym the tonge
of the learned doth thereby declare that it is not suffycient that he be well instructed in the mystery of saluation but that he haue also the gift of vtterance Afterwarde M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule dyd not preache to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them No forsooth hys wryting to the Romaines was no more preaching then S. Paules hand or hys penne which were hys instrumentes to wryte with were hys tongue or hys lyghtes or any other partes which were hys instrumentes to speake with And S. Paule hym selfe wryting to the Romaines putteth a difference betwene hys wryting hys preaching when although he wrote vnto them yet he excuseth hym selfe that he could not come to preach vnto them saying that he was ready as much as lay in hym to preach vnto them But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching No more then the reading of Erodus Heere be good proufes It is generally denyed that reading is preaching and Mayster Doctoure without any proufe taketh it for graunted that the reading of Deuteronomie is preaching All men see how pityfull reasons these be And in the. 162. page he alledgeth that in the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by reading preaching But what dealing is thys vpon a seeming and coniecture to set down so certenly and vndoubtedly that reading is preaching then there is no one letter nor sillable that vpholdeth any such coniecture For S. Iames sayth that Moyses meaning the law red euery Saboth through out euery towne in the sinagogue was also preached or had those that preached it setting forth the order which was vsed in all the churches amongst the people of God that alwayes when they met vpon the Saboth dayes they had the scriptures first redde and then preached of and expounded which is that the authors of the Admonition doe desire and therefore complayne for that after reading followeth no preaching which any indifferent man may easely vnderstand by that that they say In the olde tyme the worde was preached now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red But Mayster Doctor heareth with hys left eare and readeth with hys left eye as though hys right eye were pulled out or hys ryght care cut of For otherwyse the other wordes which they haue touching thys matter myght easely haue bene expoūded by the argumēt matter which they handle Of mynistring of the sacramentes in priuate places by women I haue spoken before there remayneth therefore only in thys section to speake of the deacons that they ought not to minister the sacramēt Which although I haue done partly before partly afterward will do when I shall shew that it appertayneth not to them to minister the worde and therefore not the sacramentes being things the mynistery whereof ought not to be seuered yet I will in a worde answere those arguments that M. Doctor bryngeth for to proue that they may mynister the sacramentes Whereof the fyrst is that Phillip in the. 8. of the Acts baptysed There is great doubt amongst wryters which Phillip that was that S. Luke mentioneth in the eyght chapter of the Acts of the Apostles But I graūt him to be y Phillip that was the deacon answeare that he was no deacon then For the church of Ierusalem whereof he was deacon being scattered he could be no more deacon of it or distribute the money that was collected for the poore of the church And further I answeare that he was afterwarde an Euangelist and therefore preached not by vertue of hys deaconshyppe whose calling is not to preache but by that he was an Euangelist whose office put vpon hym a necessitie of preaching After you say that deacons are not permitted with vs to celebrate the Lordes supper and why then shoulde they be suffered to mynister baptisme as if the one sacrament were not as precious as the other Thys is a myserable rending a sonder of those things which God hath ioyned together not only to seperate the mynistery of the sacramentes from the word but also the mynistery of one sacrament from an other And what reason is there that it should be graunted vnto one that can not preach being as they call hym a mynister to mynister both the sacramentes whē as the same is not permitted vnto a deacon as they call hym which is able to preach I doe not speake it for that I woulde haue those which be deacons in deede that is which haue charge to prouide for the poore of some one congregation eyther preach or mynister the sacraments but I say that it is agaynst all reason to permit the mynistery of the sacramentes to those which can not preach to deny it to those which are able to preach In the. 118. page vnto the example of Phillip he addeth S. Stephen which was one of the deacons which he affirmeth to haue preached But I deny it for all that long oration which he hath in the 7. of the Actes is no sermon but a defence of hym selfe agaynst those accusations which were layde agaynst hym as M. Beza doth very learnedly substancially proue in hys annotations vpon those places of S. Stephens disputations defence Now to defend hym selfe being accused is lawfull not for the deacons only but for any other christian we read nothing that Stephen dyd there eyther touching the defence of hys cause or the sharpe rebuking of the obstinate phariseys and priestes but that the holy Martyrs of God which were no deacons nor mynisters haue done with vs when they haue bene conuented before their persecutors And where as he sayth that Philip baptised I haue shewed before by what authoritie he dyd it that is not in that he was a deacon but for that he was an Euangelist He addeth further out of Iustin Martyr that the deacons dyd distribute the bread the wyne in the admynistration of the supper Tullie sayth in a certayne place that it is as great a poynt of wysedome in an aduocate or pleader of causes to holde backe and to keepe close that which is hurtfull to hys cause as it is to speake that which is profitable M. Doctor obserueth none of these poyntes for besydes that the thinges which he brought for the defence of the seruice booke are such as they haue before appeared in seeking to defende it he manyfestly oppugneth it For before he sayde that the booke of seruice doth not permit deacons to mynister the supper of the Lord and that by way of alowing of the booke and here he proueth that the deacons dyd mynister the sacrament of the supper and that also as a thing which he doth alow of But to let that passe I beseech thee good Reader marke what a mynistring of the supper thys is which Iustin maketh mention of note with what conscience M. Doctor handeleth this cause Iustin saith that after the scriptures are red and preached of and prayers made bread and wine water was brought forth
what I haue before sayd that the magistrate ought to compell them to heare the worde of God and if they profite not nor wyth sufficient teaching correcte not them selues that then they shoulde be punyshed And if you doe aske whye they shoulde be more compelled vnto the sermons then vnto the supper of the Lorde or why they are not as well to be admitted vnto the one as vnto the other you see the like done in the sacrament of baptisme whych may not be ministred vnto all to whome the word may be preached The reason also is at hand for the preaching of the worde of God to the papistes is an offer of the grace of God whych may be made to those whych are strangers from God but the ministring of the holy sacraments vnto them is a declaration and seale of Gods fauor reconciliation with them and a plain preaching partly that they be washed already from their sinnes partly that they are of the houshold of God and such as the Lord will feede to eternail lyfe whych is not lawful to be don to those whych are not of the houshold of fayth And therfore I conclude that the compelling of papists vnto the communion and the dismissing and letting of them go whē as they be to be punyshed for their stubbernes in popery wyth thys condition if they will receiue the communion is very vnlawful when as although they wold receyue it yet they ought to be kept back vntil such time as by their religious and gospellike behauior they haue purged themselues of that suspition of popery whych their former life and conuersation hath caused to be conceyued As for the fee that M. doctor sayeth we be worthy of for shewing our selues as he sayth so good patrones of the papistes he hath geuen vs well to vnderstande what it should be if he were the paymaister but as we serue the Lord in thys worke so we loke for rewarde at hys hande not fearing but that the Lord will in the ende geue such blessing vnto our labors as we shal not neede greatly to feare at the hands of those whych God hath placed in authority thereward whych you do so often call for Vnto that whych is contained in the two next sections in the. 103. and a peece of the. 104. pages I haue answeared before partly particularly and partly when I noted the generall faults of the seruice boke especially seeing that M. Doctor wil not defend the piping and organes nor no other singing then is vsed in the reformed churches whych is in the singing of two Psalmes one in the beginning and an other in the ending in a plaine tune easye bothe to be sung of those whych haue no arte in singing and vnderstanded of those whych because they can not read can not sing wyth the rest of the churche The reply vnto the next section whych is contained in the 106. 107. and a peece of the. 108. pages FOr that whych is in the. 105. page and concerneth the surplice I haue answeared before There foloweth the interrogatories or demaundes ministred vnto the infants in baptisme for the profe wherof is brought in the first place Dionisius Areopagita a worthy couer for such a cup. For to let pas that M. doctor alledgeth the celestiall hierarchie in stead that he should haue cited the ecclesiasticall hierarchie thys testimony being founde in the one and not in the other dare M. Doctor be so bold as to delude the worlde in so great light wyth suche bables as thys doth he thinke that the author of these bokes of hierarchies being so full of subtile speculations vain and idle fansies wicked blasphemies making one order of popes an other of prelates the third of sacrificers and then of monkes some of whych orders came not many hundreth yeares after that time wherin Denis the Arcopagite liued which mentioneth many folish ceremonies and corruptions that no other author neyther Greeke nor Latine stories nor others diuers hundreth yeares after dothe make any mention of besydes hym I say doth he thynke to abuse men and to geue them such drosse in steade of siluer such chaffe in stead of corne as to make vs beleue that he that wrote these bokes of hierarchie was s. Paules scholer for the better blasing of this Denis armes I will send the reader vnto that whych Erasmus wryteth of thys Denis of M. Doctors vpon the. 17. of the Actes of the Apostles where he also sheweth togither wyth hys owne iudgement the iudgement of Laurentius Valla. I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous historiographer and of no credite in such matters and in those matters especially whych myght lyke or mislike those times wherin he wrote sayeth of S. Paules communicating wyth Denis and another concerning the heauenly and Ecclesiasticall hierarchie But because I thynke M. Doctor be now ashamed of hys Denis I wil folow it no further By thys it may appeare that M. Doctors Dionisius being a counterfet and startvp these interrogatories and demaūds ministred vnto the infants haue not so many gray haires as he would make vs beleue although in dede the question lyeth not in the antiquitie As for reasons he hath none but only as one which hath learned hys aequipollences very euil he maketh it all one to say I renoūce and to say I will teach an other to renounce As for S. Augustines place although I can not alow hys reason that he maketh nor the proportion that is betwene the sacrament of the body and bloud of our sauioure Christe and hys body and bloud it selfe of one side and betwene the sacrament of baptisme and faith of the other side saying that as the sacrament of the body of Christ after a sort is the body so the baptisme of the sacrament of faith is after a sort faith whereas he should haue sayd that as the supper being the sacrament of y body of Christe is after a sort the body of Christ so baptisme being a sacrament of the bloud of Christ is after a sort the bloud of Christ for faith is not the subiect of baptisme as the body and bloud of Christ is the matter of the supper Yet I say that S. Augustine hath no one word to approue thys abuse of answearing in the childes name in hys person but goeth about to establish an other abuse whych was that it was lawfull for those that presented the childe to say that it beleeued So that it is lyke that the minyster dyd aske those whych presented the infant whether they thought that it was faithfull and dyd beleeue and those whych presented it sayd it was so wherevpon thys question rose whether it was lawfull to say that the childe beleeued In the. 191. and. 192. pages he speaketh of thys agayne but he doth nothing els but repeat in both places that whych is here only he sayth that it is a mocking of God to vse the place of the Galathians God is not mocked against
thys abuse and hys reason is because s. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by fained excuses seeke to defraud the pastor of hys lyuing as who should say s Paule dyd not conclude that particulare conclusion thou shalt not by friuolous excuses defraud the minister wyth thys general saying God is not mocked for hys reason is God is not mocked at all or in any matter therfore he is not mocked in thys Or as who should say because our sauioure Christ saying that it is not lawfull to seperate that which God hath ioyned speaking of diuorce it is not lawfull to vse thys sentence being a generall rule in other thyngs when as we know it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the papists whych seuer the cup from the breade as agaynst the Iewes whych put away their wiues for euery small and trifeling cause And as for thys questioning it can be little better termed then a very trifeling and toying For first of all children haue not nor can not haue any fayth hauing no vnderstanding of the word of God I will not deny but children haue the spirite of God whych worketh in them after a wonderful fashion But I deny that they can haue faith which cometh by hearing vnderstandyng whych is not in them Secondarily if children could haue fayth yet they that present the childe can not precisely tell whether that particulare chylde hath fayth or no and therfore can not so absolutely answere that it beleeueth Because it is comprehended in the couenaunt and is the chylde of faythfull parents or at the least of one of the parents there is warrant vnto the presenters to offer it vnto baptisme and to the minister for to baptise it And further we haue to thinke charitably and to hope that it is one of the church But it can be no more precisely sayd that it hath fayth thē it may be sayd precisely elected for in dede it is all one to say that it is elect and to say it beleueth and this I thinke the authors of the admonition do meane when they say that they require a promise of the Godfather whych is not in them to performe Thirdly if bothe those thyngs were true that is that infantes had fayth and that it myght be precisely sayd y it beleeueth yet ought not the minister demaund thys of the childe whom he knoweth can not answer hym nor those that answer for the childe ought to demaund to be baptised when they neyther meane nor may be being already baptised But it is meete that all thyngs should be done grauely simply and plainly in the church And so if those other two thyngs were lawfull it ought to be done as seemeth to haue bene done in S. Augustines times when the minister asked those that presented the infant and not the infant whether it were faythfull and those whych presented answeared in their owne persons and not in the childes that it was faythfull For Godfathers there is no controuersy betwene the admonition and M. doctors boke whych appeareth not only in their corrections but plainly in the 188. page where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse whylest it is vrged more then greater matters and whych are in deede necessary thys being a thyng arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the church and whilest there is so euil choyse for the moste parte of Godfathers whych is expressedly mentioned of the admonition and whilest it is vsed almost for nothyng else but as a meane for one frende to gratify an other wythout hauing any regarde to the solempne promyse made before God and the congregation of seeing the childe broughte vp in the nurture and feare of the lord For the thyng it selfe consydering that it is so generally receyued of all the churches they do not mislike of it As for fonts I haue spoken of before both particularly in general But wheras M. doctor sayeth in the apostles times they baptised in no basins but in riuers common waters I wold know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the iaylors houses where Paul and Peter baptised To proue crossing in baptisme M. Bucers authority is brought I haue sayd before what iniury it is to leaue the publyke workes of Bucer and to flye vnto the Apochryphas wherin also they might driue vs to vse the like and to set downe lykewise hys wordes whych we finde in hys priuate letters But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader howe wyth what name those notes are called whych are cited of M. Doctor for the defence of these corruptions They are called by M. Doctors owne confession censures which word signifyeth and implyeth as muche as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take thys for a generall rule throughout the whole boke of seruice that in whatsoeuer thyngs in controuersy M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authority to confirme them that those thyngs Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate baptisme and communions ministred in houses for interrogatories ministred vnto infants such lyke for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgemēt it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not eyther condemned or mislyked of diuers thyngs in the seruice boke we should haue had the notes printed and set forthe to the full thys I thought in a word to admonishe the reader of Vnto M. Bucers authority I could heere opposemen of as great authority yea the authoritye of all the reformed churches whych shall also be done afterward And if there were nothyng to oppose but the worde of God whych will haue the sacraments ministred simply and in that sincerity that they be left vnto vs it is enoughe to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that whych they shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicity The reasons whych Bucer bryngeth I will answer whych in thys matter of crossing are two First that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of thys vsage and if thys be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we should mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptious whych were likewyse vsed in those tunes For the same Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of miike and hony and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme But heere I will note the cause whervpon I suppose thys vse of crossing came vp in the primitiue church wherby shal appeare how there is no cause now why it shuld be retained if there were any why it should be vsed in the primitiue church It is knowne to all that haue red the Ecclesiastical stories that the heathen dyd obiect to the Christians in times past in reproche that the God whych they beleued of was hanged vpon a crosse And they
it were not that M. doctor in asking these questions dothe also answer them and answeareth them farre otherwyse then the truthe doeth suffer I would not be drawne from the causes whych we haue in hand by these roging questions nowe I can not leaue them vnansweared because I see that mayster Doctor dothe make of the holy Sacrament of baptisme whych is an entry into the house of God and whereby only the family of God must enter a common passage wherby he will haue cleane and vncleane holy and prophane as well those that are wythout the couenaunt as those that be wythin it to passe by and so maketh the church no housholde but an Iune to receyue whosoeuer commeth I will answere therfore almost in as many words as the questions be asked If one of the parents be neyther drunkarde nor adulterer the chylde is holy by vertue of the couenaunt for one of the parents sakes If they be bothe and yet not obstinate in their synne whereby the church hathe not proceeded to Excommunication them selues being yet of the church their chylde can not nor ought not to be refused To the second question wherein he asketh what if the childe be of Papistes or Heretikes If bothe be Papistes or condenmed heretikes if so be I may distinguishe papistes from heretikes and cutte of from the church then their children can not be receyued because they are not in the couenaunt if eyther of them be faithfull I haue answeared before that they ought to be receyued To the other question wherin he asketh what if they erre in some poynts of matters of faithe If it be but an error and be not in those poynts whych case the foundations of fayth because they still notwythstandyng their error are to be counted amongst the faythfull their children pertaine vnto the promise and therfore to the sacrament of the promise And in the. 193. page he asketh what if the parentes of the chylde bee vnknowne If they be yet if godly men will present it to baptisme with promise of seeing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde for so muche as it is founde in a place where the church is and therefore by lykelyhoode to appertayne vnto some that was of the church I thinke it may be baptysed if the church thinke it good in thys last case Then hee goeth forth in the. 111. page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckned may be baptysed and demaundeth whether a wicked father may haue a good child a papist or heretike father a beleuing child yes verely may they So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe and yet theyr children are not to be receyued vnlesse their fayth doe first appeare by confession But you say the papist and hereticke be baptised and so are not the Iewes and Turkes Their baptisme they being cut of from the church maketh them as much straungers vnto it as was Ismael and Esau which albeit they were circumcysed yet being cast out of the church they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people then those whiche neuer were in the church Now you see the poyson as you terme it which lyeth hyd vnder these wordes and if it be as you say poyson let vs haue some of your triacle In all the rest of the section there is nothing but that which he spake of before only the eldershyp is named which commeth to be entreated of in the next section The reply vnto the three next sections concerning the senyors beginning in the latter end of the. 112. page and holding on vntill the beginning of the. 118. page AS though M. Doctor were at vtter defiance with all good order Methode of wryting that which was geuen hym orderly by the Admonition he hath turned vpsyde downe For where the Admonition speaketh first of the elders then of that which is annexed vnto them which is the dyscipline whereof excommunication is a part consydering that the subiect is in nature before that which is annexed vnto it M. Doctor hath turned it cleane contrary and first speaketh of excommunication and then of the elders I will therefore that the reader may the easelyer vnderstand that which is sayde follow the order of the Admonition and first of all speake of the elders or senyors which ought to be in the church And in speaking of them I must call to remembrance that diuision which I made mention on before that is Of those which haue care and which gouerne the whole congregation some there be which do both teache the word and gouerne also some which doe not teach but only gouerne and be ayders in the gouernment vnto those which doe teache Thys dyuision is most manifestly set forth in the Epistle vnto Timothe where he sayeth the elders which rule well are worthy of double honor and especially those which labor in the word and doctryne where he maketh by playne and expresse words two sorts of elders the one which doth both gouerne and teach the other which gouerneth only These therefore are the senyors which are meant whose office is in helping the pastor or byshop in the gouernement of that particulare church where they be placed pastors and elders Now that it is knowne what these senyors be in entreating of them I am content to answere M. Doctor three requestes which he maketh in the. 125. page where he desireth that one would do so much for hym as first to shew that these senyors were in euery congregation secondarely he will haue it proued that thys regiment is perpetual and not to be altered last of all he desireth to know whether these senyors were lay men and not rather mynisters of the word and byshops Thys last is a fond request and suche as is alredy answeared but he must be followed For the first therefore which is that there were segnyors in euery congregation although M. Doctor in the 114. page and in the. 132. page constrayned by Ambose authoritie confesseth it in playne wordes yet because he requireth it to be shewed and maketh a iest at those places which are alledged out of the scripture to proue it some thing muste be spoken thereof The first place is in the Actes whych is that Paule Barnabas dyd appoynte by election elders in euerie congregation but it is not lyke they dyd appoynt dyuers ministers or bishops which preached in euery congregation which were not to be had for suche a number of congregations as were then to bee preached vnto therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached other elders which dyd only in gouernment assist the pastors which preached And what should we follow comectures heere when S. Paule doth in the place before alledged declare what these elders are But M. Doctor sayeth that there is no mention made of the office of such an elder therefore that place maketh nothing to proue that there shoulde be such elders in euery congregation
the magistrate entring into the church the elder shuld be therfore thrust out For the elders office was to admonish seuerally those that dyd amisse to comfort those which he saw weake shaking and to haue neede of comfort to assist the pastor in ecclesiasticall censures of reprehensions sharper or milder as the faultes required also to assist in the suspēsions from the supper of the Lord vntill some triall were had of the repentance of that party which had confessed hym selfe to haue offended or else if he remayned stubburne to assist hym in the excommunicatiō These were those things which the elders dyd which forsomuch as they may doe as well vnder a christian magistrate as vnder a tyrant as well in the tyme of peace as in the tyme of persecution it followeth that as touching the office of elders there is no distinction in the tymes of peace and persecution of a christian prince and of a tyrant But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principal offices of charitie can not be excercised is necessary and alwayes to be kept in the church But the office of auncients elders are such as with out which the principal offices of charity can not be exercised therefore it followeth that thys office is necessary That the principall offices of charity can not be exercised without thys order of auncientes it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amendeth not after he be admonyshed once priuately and then before one wytnes or two can not further be proceeded agaynst according to the commaundement of our sauior Christ onlesse there be in the church auncients and elders therefore thys principall office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of hym which hath not profited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is cōmaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not profite by these two warnings it should be tolde the church Now I would aske who be meant by the church heere if he say by the church are meant all the people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayne to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of thys matter I doe not deny but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shall be noted heereafter but the matter is not so farre come for hee must first refuse to obey the admonition of the church or euer they can proceede so farre Well if it be not the people that be meant by the church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the pastor but if he will say so and speake so straungely he must warrant it wyth some other places of scripture where the church is taken for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a company And besydes thys strangenes of speach it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraignitie of the medycine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festered sore as would neyther be healed with priuate admonition neyther with admonition before one or two witnesses For as the fault groweth so our sauiour Christ woulde haue the number of those before whome he shoulde be checked and rebuked lykewise grow Therefore from a priuate admonition he ryseth vnto the admonition before two or three from them to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a daungerouser wound should be layde an easier plaister and therefore our sauiour doth not ryse from two to one for that were not to ryse but to fall nor to proceede but to goe backward but to many Seeing then that the church heere is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the church here he meaneth the pastor with the auncients or elders Or else whome can he meane And as for thys manner of speach wherein by the church is vnderstanded the cheefe gouernours and elders of the church it is oftentymes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borowed thys maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayde That Moses wrought hys myracles before the people when mention is made before only of the elders of the people whome Moses had called together And most manifestly in * Iosue where it is sayde that he that kylled a man at vnwares shall returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregration to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernoures of the congregation for it dyd not appertayne to all to iudge of thys case Lykewyse in the Chronicles and dyuers other places And therefore I conclude that forsomuch as those be necessary and perpetuall which are spoken of in those wordes tell the Church and that vnder those wordes are comprehended the elders or auncientes that the elders and auncientes be necessary and perpetuall officers in the church Furthermore S. Paule hauing entreated throughout the whole first Epistle to Timothe of the orders which ought to be in the church of God and of the gouernment as hym selfe wytnesseth in the third chapter of that Epistle whē he sayeth he wrote that Epistle to teach Timothe how he shoulde behaue hym selfe in the house of God and hauing set forth both byshoppe and elder and deacons as mynisters and officers of the church in the shutting vp of hys Epistle he for the obseruation of all the orders of that Epistle adiureth Timothe and with the inuocation of the name of God strayghtly chargeth hym to obserue those thinges which hee had prescribed in that Epistle I charge thee sayeth hee before God which quickeneth all things and before Iesus Christ which witnessed vnder Pontius Pilate a good profession that thou keepe thys commaundement without spot or blemishe vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ The wayght of which sentence for the obseruing of those things which are mentioned in thys Epistle that it may be the better vnderstanded I will note the wordes seuerally First therefore it is to be noted that he sayeth I denounce or I charge He doth not say I exhorte or giue counsell leauing it to the lyberty of Timothe Secondarely it is to be noted that he calleth the whole Epistle a commaūdement and therefore it is no permission so that it may be lawfull for the churches to leaue it or to keepe it Thirdly when he maketh mention of the lyuing God and of Christ which witnessed a good profession vnder Pontius Pilate he sheweth that the thinges contayned in thys Epistle are such as for the mayntenaunce thereof wee ought not to doubt to geue our lyues and that they be not such as we ought to kepe so that we haue them without strife and without sweate or easely but such as for the keeping of them if we haue them and for the obtayning of them if we haue them not I will not say
is the rule of the best I say they know that these gouernmentes do easely declyne into their contraries and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easely be chaunged into the gouernment of few of the richest or of greatest power and the populare estate might easely passe to a confused tumulte Now thys incommoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant then vnder a godly prince For they had no cyuill magistrate which might correct and reforme those declyninges when they happened For the tyrantes dyd not know of it and if they had known of it they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke Therfore now we haue a godly ciuil magistrate which both wil ought to remedy such declinings conuersions of good gouernment into euill it followeth that thys estate gouernmēt by auncientes is rather to be vsed vnder a christian prince then vnder a tyrant Besides thys in the tyme of persecution all assemblyes of dyuers together were daungerous and put them all in hazard of their lyfe which dyd make those assemblies And therefore if the pastor alone might haue ordered and determyned of things pertayning to the church by hym selfe it had bene lesse daunger to him and more safety for others of the Church And therfore if the senyors were then thought meete to gouerne the church when they could not come together to exercise their functions without daunger much more ought they to be vnder a christian prince when they may meete together without daunger M. Doctor proceedeth sayeth it can not be gouerned in a whole realme as it may be in a citie or town This gouernment by senyors is not only in one citie but also hath beene of late throughout the whole realme of Fraunce where there were any churches and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the primitiue churches and therefore not onely in one realme but almost throughout the whole world and therefore the large spreading of the church can not hynder it So that the difference lyeth still in the peace and persecution of the Church and not in the capacitie and largenesse of the place where the churches abyde So might one reason agaynst the lawfull estate of a Monarchie For he might say that although the rule of one be needefull and conuenient in a housholde yet it is not conuenient in a towne and although it be conuenient in a towne yet it is not in a citie and although in a citie yet not in a realme To be short sayeth hee when he can say no more it can not be gouerned when it is full of hypocrites Papistes Atheistes and other wicked persons as in the times of persecution when there were few or none such I haue shewed before how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth to say that Papistes and Atheistes be of the church and I loue not as Maister Doctor doth to vse often repetition but if there bee now moe hypocrites other wicked and vnruely parsones in the church then there were in the tyme of persecution which I wil not deny thē there is greater cause now why there should be senyors in euery churche then there was then when there were fewer For the more naughty persons and the greater disorders there be the more ayde and helpe hath the pastor neede to haue both to finde out their disorders and also when they haue founde them out to iudge of the qualitie of them and after also to correct them with the censures of the church which standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Afterwarde he asketh what senyors may bee had in most of the paryshes of Englande fitte for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page where he also addeth pastors asking where may be gotten such pastoures as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other then those which the word of God requireth Well then if thys be a good reason why there should be no elders in any church because fitte men are not to be gotten in all paryshes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that forasmuch as we haue not fit and able pastors for euery church that therfore we ought to haue no able pastor in any church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able pastoures in as many places as they may be gotten how can he deny that wee should haue elders in those churches where fitte men may bee had And I say further where wee haue an expresse commaundement layde vpon vs to doe a thing there all disputations must cease of hardenes of impossibility or profite or else of peace For first God hath not commaunded any orders in hys churche which are impossible and if they seeme harde it must bee remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so harde which dyligence and trauayle to bring it to passe will not ouercome Which thing if it bee proued true in worldly affaires the truth therof will much more appeare in the matters pertayning vnto God considering that if God with hys blessing doe surmount all the difficultyes in worldly matters whych are otherwyse harde to be compassed hee will in hys owne matters and matters pertayning to hys glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hylles althoughe they bee neuer so high playne the wayes be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh away tracked and easie to goe in and to walke towardes that kingdome whereunto hee calleth vs Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is wyth knowledge discretion wisdom and there are suche as * S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling and especially to a publike calling God doth powre on hys giftes of that person which is called so plentifully that hee is as it were sodenly made a newe manne which if he do in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimony of the church and with experience of their former godly behauiour chosen to such offices of waight So that there is not nor can not bee any want to obey Goddes commaundement and to establishe the order in the church whych God hath appoynted but our owne eyther neglygence and slouthfulnes or fearefulnes or ambition or some other leuen which we nourish within our selues It is true that we ought to be obedyent vnto the cyuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto hym and according to that calling But it must be remembred that cyuil magistrates must gouerne it according to the rules of God prescribed in hys word that as they are nourises so they
that they had also some care to prouide for the poore and that they were such as dyd mynister the sacramentes And in an other Councell they haue authoritie geuen them to make subdeacons exorcists and readers I know thys was a corruption of the mynistery but yet all men see how Maister Doctor looketh as it were a farre of vpon things and therefore taketh a man for a molehill when he would make vs beleeue that these were chauncelors c. In the. 125. page to the admonition desyring that these may be remoued and the eldershyp establyshed according to Gods order M. Doctor aunswereth that that were to place in stede of wise and discrete men vnlearned ignorant and vnapt to rule Let Maister Doctor take heede least in alowing so well of the popishe ceremonies not only as tollerable but as fitte and then acquainting hym selfe with the papistes maner of speaking in saying that the people be ignoraunt and vnlearned he fal or ouer he be aware into some worse thing Moses in Deuteronomie and Salomon in hys prouerbes place the principall wisedome in keeking Gods commaundementes and in fearing god And Dauid sayeth that the secretes and the priuy councell of the Lord is knowen to those which feare hym and I haue shewed out of S. Paule that he geueth to the spirituall man great discretion and iudgement of things If therefore there be in euery church which feare God and keepe hys commaundementes there are both wise and learned discrete men and therefore not to be spoken of so contemptuously as M. Doctor speaketh And God be praysed there are numbers in the church that are hable to be teachers vnto most of the chauncelors in any matter perteyning to the church and are hable to geue a ryper iudgement in any ecclesiastical matter then the most part of them can And besides that the choysest are to be taken to thys office thys ought not to be forgotten that seeing good successe of thinges depend vppon the blessing of God and that blessing followeth the church when the Lordes order is kept simple men which carry no great countenaunce or shew will vndoubtedly doe more good vnto the church hauing a lawfull calling then those of great port whiche haue no such calling In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbyshoppes Courte necessary but bringeth no reason and further confesseth hym selfe ignoraunt of the estate of it and therefore I know not from whence that good opynion of hys shoulde come onlesse it be from thence that he lyketh of all things be they neuer so euill whych the admonition missyketh The rest which M. D. hath of thys matter is nothing else but great and high wordes And as for the Canon law it is knowen what a stroke it beareth with vs and that a few cases excepted it remayneth in her former effect To the sections beginning in the. 118. page and holding on vntill the. 123. page It was before shewed that of the gouernoures of the church there were some whose charge pertayned vnto the whole church of the which we haue spoken some other whose charges extend but to a part of the church that is vnto the poore and these are the deacons And as in the former part I shewed there were two kindes so in this latter part the same is to be noted that of those whose charge was ouer the poore some had charge ouer all the poore of the church as those which are called deacons some had charge ouer the poore straungers and those poore which were sicke only and those S. Paule calleth in one place Dyaconisses and in an other place widdowes For the deacons dyd distribute vnto the necessyties as well of the poore straungers and the sicke poore as vnto the other poore of the church And the widdowes did employ their laboures to the washing of the feete of the straungers and attending vppon the poore which were sicke and had no frendes to keepe them First I will speake of the deacons whereas M. Doctor cryeth out of daiying with the scriptures for alledging the. 8. verse of the twelfth vnto the Romaines to proue deacons affirming that there is no worde of them Truely I can fynde no wordes to set forth thys so grosse ignorance And had it not bene enough for M. Doctor to haue vttered thys ignorance but he must also with an outery proclayme it and as it were spred the banner of it What doe these wordes note he that distributeth in simplicitie but the office of the deaconshyp For in that place S. Paule reckeneth vp all the ordinary and perpetuall offices of the church as the office of the doctor of the pastor of the deacon of the elder and leaueth not out so muche as the widdow which he comprehendeth in these wordes shewing mercy If the authors of the Admonition doe daily with the scriptures in thys place surely Maister Caluin M Beza M. Bucer Peter Martyr c. doe dally with them And shall all these be esteemed to play with the scriptures and M. Doctor only to handle them seriously And as M. Doctors ignorance appeareth in thys place so hys mynde not desirous of the truth but secking to cauill doth as manifestly shew it selfe For all men see that the admonition alledgeth not the place to the Tessalonians to proue the office of deacons but to shew that idle vagavondes might not haue any of that reliefe which belongeth vnto those which bee poore in deede which thing appeareth both by the placing of the quotation ouer agaynst that allegation by the letter which directeth therunto And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of the deacons is not only to prouide for the poore but also to preach and mynister the sacramentes I haue shewed before that it doth not appertayne vnto them to doe eyther the one or the other For the proofe whereof thys place of the Romaines quoted by the admonition is very fit most proper For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which not contenting themselues with their owne vocatiōs dyd breake into that which appertayned vnto others as if the hand should take vpon it the office of the eye or of some other member of the body therfore S. Paule doth as it were bound point the limites of euery office in the church so placeth the deacons office only in the preuysion for the poore Thys one thing I will adde to that matter that if the apostles whiche hadde suche excellent and passing gyftes dyd fynde them selues preaching of the woorde and attending to prayer not able to prouyde for the poore but thought it necessarye to dyscharge them selues of that offyce to the ende they myght doe the other effectually and fruitefully hee that shall doe both now must eyther doe none well and profitably or else hee must haue greater giftes then the Apostles had The seconde poynt is touching that there were deacons in euery churche which is well proued of the admonition both by the place of the
Phillippyans and of the Actes for although it be not there sayd that the deacons were in euery church yet for so muche as the same vse of them was in all churches which was in Ierusalem at Philippos and for that the Apostles as hath bene before touched laboring after the vniformitie of the church ordeyned the same officers in all churches the proofe of one is the proofe of all and the shewing that there were deacōs in one church is the shewing in all The place which they alledge out of the first to Timothe is of all other most proper for S. Paule there describing not how the church of Ephesus but simply and generally how the church must be gouerned reckneth there the order of deacons Whereunto may be added the contynuall practise of the church long after the Apostles times which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these words the byshop elders and deacons of such a church and vnto the byshop elders and deacons of such a church And by that it is so often times sayd in the councelles where the churches assembled y there were so many byshops so many elders so many deacons The thirde poynt in thys deaconship is whether it be a necessary office in the church or for a tyme only which controuersy shoulde not haue bene if M. Doctors english tong had bene agreable with hys latin For in a certayne latin pamphlet of hys whereof I spake before he maketh the deaconship a necessary office and such as ought not to be taken out of the church here he singeth a nother song There because he thought the necessitie of the deacon made for hym he wold nedes haue deacons here because it maketh agaynst hym he sayth there is no neede of them wherby appeareth how small cause there is that M. Doctor should vpbrayde the authors of the admonition with mutability and discord with them selues But that thys office is durable and perpetuall it may appeare by that which I haue alledged before out of the sixt of Timothe for the necessitie of elders for the argumentes serue to proue the necessitie of those orders which are there set forth whereof the deacon is one And where as M. Doctor sayth that euery church is not hable to fynde a curate as he termeth hym and a deacon I haue before shewed intreating of the senyors that the churches in the Apostles tymes might best haue sayd thys being poore and persecuted althoughe I see not why the church may not haue a deacon or deacons if moe be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors There remayneth to speake of the widdowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of 60. yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill which might rise by slaunderous tonges if they had bene yonger These as they were norished at the charges of the church being poore so dyd they serue the church in attending vpon poore strangers and the poore which were sicke in the church whereof they were widdowes Now although there is not so great vse of these widdowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein thys order of widdowes was instituted part of the which necessity grew both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution by the great heate of those east countries whereupon the washing supplyng of their feete was required yet for so much as there are poore which are sicke in euery church I doe not see how a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendance of them in their sicknes other infirmities then thys which S. Paule appoynteth that there shuld be if there can be any gotten godly poore widdowes of the age which S. Paule appoynteth which should attend vpon such For if there be any such poore widdowes of that age destitute of all friendes it is manifest that they must needes liue of the charge of the church seing they must nedes do so it is better they shuld do some duety for it vnto the church agayne thē the church should be at a new charge to finde others to attend vpon those which are sicke destitute of keepers seing that there can be none so fit for that purpose as those women which S. Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that if such may be gotten we ought also to kepe that order of widowes in the church still I know y there be lerned men which thinke otherwise but I stand vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vppon the opynions of men be they neuer so well learned And if the matter also shoulde be tryed by the iudgement of men I am able to shew the iudgement of as learned as thys age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widdowes is perpetuall and ought to be where it may be had and where such widdowes are founde In deede they are more rare now then in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those which had the gift of continency dyd abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were driuen to flye then the estate of those which were maryed Vnto all the rest vntill the ende of the first part of the admonition I haue answered alredy Yet there is a poynt or two which I must touch wherof the first is in the. 126. page where he would beare men in hand that the authors of the admonition and some other of theyr mynde would shut out the cyuill magistrate and the Prince from all authoritie in Ecclesiastical matters which surmise although I see it is not so much because eyther he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing as because he meaneth heereby to lay a bayte to entrappe with all thinking that where he maketh no conscience to geue he careth not what authority to Princes we will be loth to geue more then the word of God will permit wherby he hopeth to draw vs into displeasure with the Prince yet for because he shall vnderstande we norish no opynions secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly and for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in thys part which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite but is lymitted by the word of God and of whome we are perswaded that as her maiesty knoweth so shee will not vnwillingly heare the truth in thys behalfe these things I say being considered I answere in the name of the authors of the admonition and those some other which you speake of that the Prince and cyuill magistrate hath to see that the lawes of God touching hys worshippe and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed dewly obserued to se that euery Ecclesiasticall person do that office whereunto he is
appoynted and to punish those which fayle in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders cerimonyes of the church they doe where there is a constituted and ordered church pertayne vnto the mynisters of the church and to the ecclesiastycall gouernoures and that as they meddle not with the making of cyuill lawes and lawes for the common wealth so the cyuill magistrate hath not to ordayne cerimonies pertayning to the churche But if those to whome that doth appertayne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them and dryue them to better for so much as the ciuill magistrate hath thys charge to see that nothing be done agaynst the glory of God in hys domynion Thys distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the. 2. booke of the Chronicles he shall see that there were a number appoynted for the matters of the Lord which were priestes and leuites and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongst which were the Leuites which being more in number then coulde be applyed to the vse of the churche were set ouer cyuill causes being therefore most fit for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the politicke lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please hym that the making of orders and geuing of iudgementes in cyuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and church matters pertayned vnto dyuers persons which distinction the wryter to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth that the Priest was ordayned in things pertayning to God. Thys might Maister Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble emperor * Constantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered which he doth also permit the Byshops Elders and Deacans of churches to doe eyther by correcting or adding or making new if neede be And by the contynuall practise of the church in the tyme of christian Emperors which alwayes permitted vnto the mynisters assembled in councelles as well the determynation of controuersies which rose as the making or the abolyshing of needefull or hurtfull cerimonies as the case required Also by the Emperoures epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperoures to confirme the ordinaunces which were made by the mynisters and to see them kept The practise of thys he myght haue also most playnly seene in Ambrose who wold by no meanes suffer that the causes of the churches should be debated in the Princes consistory or court but would haue them handled in the church by those that had the gouernment of the church and therefore excuseth hym selfe to the emperour Valentinian for that being conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill court he came not And by whome can the matters and orders of the church bee better ordayned then by the mynisters of the church And if that be a good reason of Maister Doctor in the fortie and seuenth page that the Byshoppes ought therefore to ordayne mynisters because they are best hable to iudge of the learning and habylitie of those which are the fyttest it is also as good reason that therefore the mynisters and gouernours of the church should appoynt and decree of such ceremonyes and orders as pertayne to the church for because it is to be supposed that they can best iudge of those matters bestowing theyr studyes that wayes and further best vnderstanding the estate of the church about the which they are wholy occupyed And this is not Maister Doctor to shake handes with the papistes For the papistes would exempt their priestes from the subiection and from the punyshment of the cyuill magistrate which we doe not And the papistes would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determyne that that forthwith should be holden for good and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that bee it good or euill without further inquiry but wee say that if there bee no lawfull mynistery to set good orders as in rumous decayes and ouerthrowes of relygion that then the Prince ought to doe it and if when there is a lawfull mynistery it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that which is lawfull and meete And if thys be to shake handes with the papistes then Maister Doctor is to blame which hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the church belongeth vnto the church And yet I know that there is one or two of the later wryters that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduauntage of their authoritie which thinke as I doe so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so much as we haue M. Doctor yet of thys iudgement that the church ceremonies shoulde bee ordayned by the church I will trauaile no further in thys matter consydering that the practise of thys church commonly is to referre these matters vnto the ecclesiasticall persons only thys is the difference that where it is done now of one or a few wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page where hee most vntruely and slaunderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them as though they should deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all sythens the tyme that the Queenes maiestye began to raigne manyfestly contrary not onely to theyr meaning but also to theyr very words which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation to contende or to labour to perfection denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maiesties dayes is thorough and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God euery one of vs is most deepely bounde vnto her maiesty whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to delyuer his church heere out of the spirituall Egipt of popery and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of straungers whereunto it was so neare Thys I say we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly geue most humble thankes to God therefore And by thys humble sute and earnest desire whiche wee haue for further reformation we are so far from vnthankfulnes vnto her maiesty that we thereby desire the heape of her felicitie the establishment of her royal throne amongst vs which then shall be most sure and vnremoued when our sauiour Christ sytteth wholy and fully not only in hys chayre to teach but also in hys throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by hys spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of hys church by
not worth the noting The Apostles dyd beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall law yet they neuer alowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Those sayth M. D. which authorized thys booke were studious of peace and of building of Christes church therefore they that speake agaynst it which hee calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church So I will reason Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the churche therefore they whiche spake agaynst the Ephod which he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacramentes and such lyke which Luther being studious of peace and of the building of the church dyd holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personnages yet their knowledge was in part although they brought many things to our light yet they being sent out in the morning or euer the sunne of the gospell was rysen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of fight as they were may see for because that which they want in the sharpnes of sight they haue by the benefite and clearenesse of the sun and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayeth for some that suffred for the truth declared openly theyr myslyking of certayne thinges in it and as for the other they coulde neuer dye for that booke more then for the lyturgie vsed in the Frenche churche or at Geneua For they receiued not the sentence of condemnation because they approued that booke but because they improued the articles drawne out of the masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of theyr martyrdome coulde not take away from vs thys lyberty that we haue to enquire of the cause of theyr death Iustin and Cyprian were godly martyrs yet a man may not say that they sealed their errors which they wrote with theyr bloud or with thys glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or wryte agaynst their erroures for thys is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of god For the papistes triumph I haue answeared before and I will not striue about the Goates wolle who is the opponent who the respondent in thys difference From the. 151. page vnto the. 171. page all is answeared where these things which are heere ioyned are seuerally handled now vnto that in the. 171. and. 172. pages I answere the although it be meete that as we hope that the homylies which are made already be godly so those that shall be made hereafter shall be lykewise yet considering the mutabilitie of men and that oftentymes to the worse it is not meete nay it is merely vnlawfull to subscribe to a blancke seeing that wee can not witnesse or allow of those things which we haue not sene nor heard The place vnto the Corinthes is the same vnto the Romanes and M. Doctor approuing one hath no cause to fynde fault with the other For the homylies first of all I haue shewed how absurde a saying and how vnlyke a dyuine it is to match reading of homylies with preaching of sermons For if the reading of the holy scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them muche lesse is the reading of homylies to be for their frute matched with preaching of sermons There remayneth that I shew briefely that neyther the homylies nor the Apochripha are at all to be red in the churche Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with hys people in tymes past when he commaunded that no vessell nor no instrument eyther beesome or flesh hooke or pan c. shuld come into the temple but those only which were sanctifyed sette apart for that vse And in the booke of Numbers he will haue no other trumpets blowne to cal the people together but those only which were set apart for y purpose What should the meaning of thys law be The matter of other common vessels trumpets was the same oftentimes which theirs was the same forme also the other beesomes and hookes and trumpets hable to serue for the vses of sweeping and sounding c. as well as those of the temple and as those which were set aparte wherfore mought not these then as well be vsed in the temple as others Forsothe because the Lord would by these rudiments and pedagogie teache that he would haue nothing brought into the church but that which he had appoynted no not althoughe they seemed in the iudgement of men as good as those things which God him selfe had placed there Which thing is much more to be obserued in this matter seeing that the homilies red be they neuer so learned and pithye neyther the Apochrypha are to be compared either in goodnes within thēselues eyther in frute or in effect towardes the hearer wyth the authenticall scriptures of god Now if a man will say that the Homilies do explane lay open the scriptures I answer that the word of God also is plain and easy to be vnderstanded and such as giueth vnderstanding to idiotes to the simple And if there be hardnes in them yet the promise of the assistance of Gods spirite that God hath giuen to the reading of the scriptures in the church whych he hath not giuen to homilies or to the Apochrypha will be able to weigh wyth the hardnes and to ouercome it so that there shall easely appeare greater profit to come vnto the church by reading of the scriptures then by reading of homilies Besides thys the pollicy of the church of God in times past is to be folowed herein that for the expounding of darker places places of more easines ought to be ioyned together as in the persecutiō of Antiochus wher they could not haue the commodity of preaching the Iewes dyd appoynt at their meetings alwayes a peece of the law to be red with all a peece of the prophets whych expounded y peece of the lawe rather then to bring in interpretations of men to be red And because I am entred into that matter heere cometh to be considered the practise also of the church both before our sauior Christes comming and after that when the churches met together there is nothing mentioned but the reading of the scriptures for so is the Lyturgie described in the Actes And it is not to be thought but that they had those whych made expositiōs of the law and the prophets And besydes that they had Onkelos the Calday paraphrast bothe Galatine Rabby Moses surnamed Maymon write that Ionathan an nother of the Calday paraphrasts floryshed in oure sauyor Christes tyme whose
wrytings and paraphrases vpon the scryptures are estemed comparable in that kinde of paraphrasticall wryting wyth any whych hath laboured that wayes And if any mennes wrytings were to be red in the church those paraphrases whych in explanyng the scrypture go least from it and whych kepe not only the numbre of sentences but almost the very numbre of words were of all most fitte to be red in the churche Seeing therfore I say the church of God then abstained from such interpretations in the church and contented it selfe wyth the scryptures it can not be but a moste dangerous attempt to bryng any thyng into the church to be red besydes the word of god Thys practise continued still in the churches of God after the apostles times as may apeare by the second Apologie of Iustin Martyr which sheweth that theyr manner was to read in the church the monuments of the prophets and of the apostles and if they had red any thyng else it is to be supposed that he would haue set it downe consydering that hys purpose there is to shewe the whole order whych was vsed in their churches then The same may appear in the first Homilye of Oregine vpon Exodus and vpon the Iudges And as for M. Bucers authoritye I haue shewed before how it ought to be wayghed heere also it is suspitious for that it is sayd that hys aduise was when the lord should blesse the realme wyth moe learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilyes whych should be red in the church vnto the people As if M. Bucer dyd not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme whych were able to make homilies so many as the volume of them myght easely haue exceeded the volume of the Byble if the multytude of homilyes would haue done so much good And if the authority of M. Bucer beare so great a sway wyth M. Doctor that vpon hys credite only wythout eyther scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those whych are now he dare thrust into the church homilies then the authorities of the most ancient best councels ought to haue ben considered whych haue geuen charge that nothyng should be red in the church but only the canonicall scriptures For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea the nothing shuld be red in the church but the canonicall bokes of the olde and newe testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterward as corruptions grew in the church it was permitted that homilies myght be red by the deacon when the minister was sicke and coulde not preach and it was also in an other councel of Carthage permitted that the martyrs liues might be red in the church But besides the euill successe that those decrees had vnder pretence wherof the popishe legende and Gregories homilies c. crept in that vse and custome was controlled by other councels as may appeare by the coūcell of Colen albeit otherwyse popishe And truely if there were nothing else but thys consideration that the bringing in of the reading of Martyrs liues into the church and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not only by thys meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teach all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure And if any man obiect that by thys meanes also is shut out of the churche the forme of ordinary prayers to be sayd I say the case is nothing lyke for when we pray we can not vse the words of the scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so muche as the churche prayeth for diuers thyngs necessarye for it the whych are not contained in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some thyngs whych we haue neede of whereof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needefull that there be a forme of Prayer drawne forthe out of the scrypture whych the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasyon of the time dothe require whych necessity can not be by no meanes alledged in the reading of Homilies or Apochrypha Wherevpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordained in the churche of Englande where bothe Homilies and Apochrypha are red especially when as diuers chapters of the bookes called Apocrypha are lyfted vp so high that they are sometime appoynted for extraordinary lessons vpon feastes dayes wherin the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall scripture as certen chapters of the Apocalipse quite left oute and not red at all Vnto the two next sections I haue answeared before where I haue entreated of holy dayes and of kneeling at the Communion it followeth to speake vnto the section contained in the. 183. and. 184. pages ALthough it will be hard for you to proue that thys worde priest commeth of the Greke word presbyteros yet that is not the matter but the case stādeth in thys that for so much as the common and vsuall speach of England is to note by the word priest not a minister of the gospel but a sacrificer which the minister of the gospell is not therefore we ought not to call the ministers of the gospell priests and that thys is the Englishe speache it appeareth by all the English translations whych translate alwayes hiereis whych were sacrificers priests and do not of the other syde for any that euer I red translate presbyteron a priest Seeing therfore a priest wyth vs and in our tonge dothe signifye both by the papistes iudgement in respect of their abhominable masse and also by the iudgement of the protestant in respect of the beasts whych were offered in the law a sacrificing office whych the minister of the gospell neyther dothe nor can execute it is manifest that it can not be wythout great offence so vsed The next three sections I haue before answeared wher I haue spoken of the abuses in baptisme crossing and interrogatories it foloweth to speake vnto the section contained in 194. 195. 196. pa. IF it be M. Bucers iudgement whych is alledged heere for the ring I see that sometimes Homere sleapeth For first of all I haue shewed that it is not lawfull to institute new signes and sacraments and then it is dangerous to doe it especially in this whych confirmeth the false and popyshe opinion of a sacrament as is alledged by the admonition And thirdly to make suche fonde allegories of the laying downe of the money of the roundnes of the ring and of the mystery of the fourth finger is let me speake it wyth hys good leaue very ridiculous and farre vnlike hym selfe And fourthly that he wil haue the minister to preach vpon these toyes surely it sauoreth not of the learning and sharpnes of the
iudgement of M. Bucer And wheras M. doctor vpon that s. Peter willeth the husbands to geue honor to their wiues wold approue this manner of speach in matrimony wyth my body I thee worshyp he must vnderstaÌ„d that it is one thing wyth vs to worship and an other thing to honor For we honor men whych we do not worshyp and besides that S. Peter speaketh of the honor of the mynde wherby the husband shuld be moued to beare wyth the infirmities of his wife therfore it is vnfitly alleaged to proue that he may worship her with his body As for the receiuing of the Communion when they be marryed that it is not to be suffered onles there be a generall receiuing I haue before at large declared and as for the reason that is fathered of M. Bucer whych is that those that be Christians maye not be ioyned in maryage but in Christe It is verye slender and cold as if the sacrament of the supper were instituted to declare any such thyng or they could not declare their ioyning togither in Christ by no meanes but by receyuing the supper of the Lorde To the next section in the. 197. page TEll me M. doctor why there should be any such confirmation in the church being brought in by the fained Decretall Epistles of the Popes and no one tittle therof being once found in the scrypture and seeing that it hath bene so horribly abused and not necessary why ought it not to be vtterly abolyshed and thirdly thys confirmation hath very dangerous poynts in it The first steppe of popery in thys confirmation is the laying on of hands vpon the head of the childe wherby the opinion of it that it is a sacrament is confirmed especially when as the prayer dothe saye that it is done according to the example of the Apostles whych is a manifest vntruthe and taken in deede from the popish confirmation The seconde is for that the byshop as he is called must be the only minister of it wherby the popishe opinion whych esteemeth it aboue baptisme is confirmed For whilest baptisme may be ministred of the minister and not coÌ„firmation but only of the byshop there is great cause of suspition geuen to thinke that baptisme is not so precious a thing as confirmation seeing thys was one of the principall reasons wherby that wicked opinion was establyshed in popery I do not heere speake of the inconuenience that meÌ„ are constrained with charges to bryng their childreÌ„ oftentimes halfe a score miles for that which if it were nedeful might be as wel done at home in their owne parishes The thirde is for y â— â—â— the allegation of the seconde cause of the vsing of the confirmation the boke sayeth that by the imposition of hands and prayer the chyldren may receyue strengthe and defence agaynst all temptations whereas there is no promyse that by the laying on of hands vpon chyldren any suche gyfte shall be geuen and it maintayneth the popyshe distinction that the spirite of God is geuen at baptisme vnto the remissyon of synnes and in confirmation vnto strength the whych very worde strength the booke alledgeth and all thys M. Doctor confuteth by callyng of the authors of the admonition peeuish and arrogant To the next section contained in the. 198. 199. 200. 201. pages LEast M. Doctor as hys common fashyon is when the corruption of anye thyng is spoken agaynst say that we condemne buryall I would haue hym vnderstand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried and that it is mete that for that cause some reasonable numbre of those whych be the frends and neyghbors about should accompany the corps to the place of buryall We hold it also lawfull to lament the dead and if the dignity of the persone so require we thynke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about the buriall wherby that may appeare but yet so that there be a measure kepte bothe in the weepyng and in the charges consydering that whereas immoderate eyther weepyng or pompe was neuer no not in the tyme of the lawe allowed nowe in the time of the gospell all that is not lawfull whych was permitted in the time of the law For vnto the people of God vnder the law weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them then vnto vs by howe muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and plaine syght of the resurrection as we haue whych was y cause also why it was lawfull for them to vse more cost in the embaulmyng of the dead therby to nouryshe and to helpe their hope touchyng the resurrection wherof we haue a greater pledge by the resurrection of our sauyor Christ then they had Nowe for the thyngs whych the admonition findeth fault wyth and thereof bryngeth reason M. Doctor of hys bare credite wythout any reason or scrypture or any thyng els commendeth them vnto vs sayeth they be good And thys you shall marke to be M. doctors symple shyft throughoute hys booke that when he hath no coloure of scripture nor of reason no name nor title of doctor theÌ„ to make vp some thyng he varyeth hys affirmation by all the figures he can as in saying simplye that it is so and then in askyng whether it be not so and after in askyng whether there is any other man will thynke that it is not so as if the woulde make vs beleeue that he setteth vs dyuers kindes of meates because he bryngeth the same in dyuers dyshes For besydes these reasons he hathe no reason eyther to proue that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead or that the minister should be drawne to thys charge Surely if the order be so good and conuenient it hath met with a very barren patron whych can say nothing for it And although there be enough sayd by the admonition yet because thys bold and hardy speache is enough to lead the simpler away to make them thinke that M. doctor hathe a good cause therfore I wil also say somthyng of these rites of buryal And first of all as thys almost is a generall fault in them all that they maintayne in the mindes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is thys also a nother general fault that these ceremonyes are taken vp without any example either of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the gospel that is of the churches in the apostles times For when the scripture descrybeth the ceremonies or rites of buryall amongste the people of God so dilygently that it maketh mention of the smallest thyngs there is no doubte but the holy Ghoste doth therby shew vs a paterne wherevnto we should also frame oure buryalles And therfore for so much as neyther the church vnder the law nor vnder the gospell when it was in the greatest puritye dyd euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buryall of theyr dead it coulde not be but daungerous
to be dennes of loyterors and idle persones whylest there are nouryshed there some whych serue for no profitable vse in the church their offyces being suche as bryng no commoditye but rather hurte of whych numbre certen are whych the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page some other which hauing charges in other places vnder the coloure of their prebendes there absent them selues from them and that whych they spoyle and rauen in other places there they spend and make good cheare wyth and therfore not wythout good cause called dennes Finally there being nothyng there whych might not be much better applied and to the greater commodity of the churche whylest they myght be turned into colledges where yong men myght be brought vp in good learning made fitte for the seruice of the church and common wealthe the vniuersities being not able to receyue that numbre of scholers wherwyth their neede may be supplyed And where M. Doctor sayth that that whych is spoken of the Queenes maiestyes chappell is worthy rather to be punyshed then confuted if so be that these be abuses the example of them in her maiesties chappell can not be but most daungerous whych wyth all humble submission and reuerence I beseeche her maiesty duely to consider And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establishe them in the 225. page as that they are necessary whych he doth barely say and that s Aug. alloweth of a Deane and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those whych desire the spoile of them and that a man may as well speake against vniuersities colledges as against them I haue answeared before sauing that it is to be feared that colledges in vniuersities if M. doctor may worke y which he goeth about wil shortly be in little better case then those cathedral churches whych not only by hys own example but wyth might and maine and al endeuor possyble goeth about to fill and fraught them wyth Non residences and suche as haue charges of churches in other places whych do no good in the vniuersitye and partly are such as can do none only are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making greate cheare wyth the prayes and spoyles whych they bryng out of the country to the great hurt of the vniuersity presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter onles spedy remedy be therfore prouided And wher he sayth it is not material although these deanes vicedeanes canons peticanōs prebēdaries c. come from the pope it is as if he shoulde saye that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomles pit For whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the deuill and where he addeth thys condition if it be good c. in deede if of the egges of a cockatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer with all then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Deuill be good profitable and necessary vnto the church And where he sayeth that collegiate churches are of great auncientie he proueth not the auncientie of the cathedrall churches onles he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one But I will not sticke wyth hym for so small a matter if our controuersy were of the names of these churches and not of the matter I could be content to graunt hys cause in this poynt as good as antiquitie without the word of God which is nothing but rottennes could make it But for so much as those auncient collegiate churches were no more lyke vnto these which we haue now then things most vnlyke our cathedrall churches haue not so much as thys olde worne cloke of antiquity to hide theyr nakednes and to keepe out the shoure For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiasticall standing of godly learned mynisters elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in the citie or towne where suche churches were and for that in suche great cities and townes commonly there were the most learned pastors and auncientes therefore the townes and villages rounde about in hard and difficult causes came and had their resolutions of theyr doubtes at theyr handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteronomie that when there was any great matter in the countrey which the Leuites in matters pertayning to God and the Iudges in matters pertayning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Ierusalem where there was a great numbre of Priestes Leuites and learned Iudges of whome they should haue their questions dissolued and thys was the first vse of collegiate churches Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gaue vnto them in asking them counsell they tooke vnto them selues and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reuerent estimation of them they dyd not only take vnto them of right but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all And in the ende they came to thys which they are now which is a company that haue strange names and strange offyces vnhearde of of all the purer churches of whome the greatest good that wee can hope of is that they doe no harme For although there be dyuers which doe good yet in respect that they bee Deanes Prebendaries Canons Petycanons c. for my part I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them And where hee sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the mayntenance and bringing vp of scholers where now for the most part they serue for fat morsels to fill if it might be the gredy appetites of those which otherwyse haue enough to lyue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthy to be kept at the charge of the church or else whose presence is necessary and duetifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayeth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answeared before thys only I adde y they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctryne but those which made the people of God beleeue that they were happy when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kynde of false prophecie Ieremy especially doth complayne And therefore onles M. Doctor amend hys speach leaue thys crying peace peace all is wel when there are so many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the admonition fauorers therof only but euē of al which are not willingly blind I say if he do not amend these speches the crime of false prophesy will sit closer vnto him thē he shal be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the lord The next section I haue answeared in the treatise
But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to run ouer hys bootes And last of all to proue that byshoppes may haue prisons hee citeth Peter which punyshed Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor must vnderstand that thys was Ecclesiasticall power and was done by vertue of that function which S. Paule calleth dynamin which is one of those functions that the Lord placed in hys church for a tyme But is thys a good argument because S. Peter punished with the word therefore the mynister may punyshe with the sworde And because S. Peter dyd so once therefore the byshop may doe so alway because S. Peter dyd that which appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate and which no ciuill magistrate by any meanes may or can doe therefore the mynister may doe that which appertayneth vnto the ciuill magistrate For if there had bene a ciuill magistrate the same could not haue punyshed thys fault of dissimulation which was not knowen nor declared it selfe by any outwarde action So that if thys example proue any thing it proueth that the mynister may doe that no man may doe but the Lord only which is to punysh faultes that are hyd and vnknowne If thys be ignoraunce it is very grosse if it be agaynst knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determyned with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor hys outcries and declamations and if I should haue vsed them as often as he geueth occasion there would be no end of wryting The Lord geue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Vnto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church as also vnto three or foure such like demaunds which hee maketh in thys booke the authors of the Admonition answeare at once that thys and the other are sounde in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Heere I will take in that whych the byshop of Salesbury hath in the last page of hys halfe sheete touching thys matter And first of all I wel agree that he sayth that to geue vnto sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an Ecclesiasticall person by reprehensyon or putting hym out of the ministerye if the case so require is meere ecclesiasticall and not ciuill and that those thyngs ought to be done of the offycers of the church Thys only I deny that the ministers ought to meddle wyth ciuill offyces For proofe whereof the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine whych as Possidonius wryteth was troubled wyth the hearing determinyng of causes Wherin Possidonius sayeth nothyng but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister wyth the elders ought bothe to heare and determine of causes but of suche causes as pertaine vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidonius ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustin as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that whych he wryteth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certen in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accompted of thys as of compulsyon and restraint from hys better busynesses whereby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not wyth those worldly affaires further then by waye of giuing counsell whych is not vnlawful for a minister to do as one friend vnto an other so that hys mynisterye be not thereby hindered And for the truthe of thys matter that ministers ought not to meddle wyth ciuill affaires I will appeale to no other then to the byshop hym selfe who dothe affirme plainly the same that the admonition heere affirmeth And therfore I conclude that for so much as bothe the holy scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill offyces and reason and the practise of the church doe confirme it that they ought to kepe thēselues within the limites of the ministerye and Ecclesiasticall functions least whilest they breake forthe into the calling of a magistrate in steade of shewing themselues episcopous that is ouerseers they be found to declare themselues * allotriopiscopous that is busy bodyes medling in thyngs whych belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whych they knowe well enoughe that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon that is to say studye to adorne that charge whych they take in hande and doe professe I leaue to speake any further of thys matter Vnto the two next sections I haue spoken in that whych hathe bene sayde touchyng excommunication canons and prebendaries c. and vnto that whych is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsons and vicars be a great plague vnto this church and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Lykewise vnto the two next sectiōs I haue answeared before in speaking against the spirituall courts whych are now vsed and vnto the next after that in speaking of the ordayning of ministers And vnto that whych is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall iudge of the aptnes or vnaptnes of our reasons and albeit we do finde fault with diuers thyngs in the booke yet we neyther oppugne as enemyes nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puretanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs And to the prayer agaynst disturbers of the churche I say wyth all my heart Amen Vnto the next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise whych declareth to whome it doth appertaine to make ceremonyes and orders of the church And vnto the section contained in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions answeareth of garlike For the authors of the admonition desyring that it myght be as lawful for them to publishe by Printe their mindes or to be heard dispute or that theyr minde put in wryting myghte be openly debated maister D. answeareth wyth Augustines sentence whych he hath made the foote of hys song nothing to the purpose of that whych they said the performance of which promise we wil notwythstanding wayte for Vnto the section contayned in the. 245. and. 246. pages HEre maister Doctor contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Admonition whych declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe sayth that therfore they will not subscribe because they are required by lawfull authoritye Whych howe bothe presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whych hath bene declared And where maister Doctor wold vpon the marginall note proue that we haue good discipline because we haue good doctrine and thervpon doth wonderfully tryumphe he playeth as he of whome it is sayde meden labon cratei carteros that is hauyng gotten nothyng holdeth it fast For can M. doctor be so ignorant that thys manner of speach doctrine and discipline
reading is but bare feading the discorde is in hys cares not in their wordes For when they sayde it was no feading they meant suche feeding as could saue them and so in calling it bare feading they note that there is not enough in that to keepe them from famishment And in deede vnles the Lord worke miraculously and extraordinarily whych is not to beloked for of vs the bare reading of the scriptures wythout the preachyng can not delyuer so much as one poore sheepe from destruction and from the wolfe And if some haue ben conuerted wonderfully yet M. doctor should remember that potamos ouc aei axinas pherei that is The water doth not alway beare iron And vpon the thirde leafe where he geueth instance in the Apocalypse of the worde priest to be taken otherwyse then for the Leuiticall priesthode and priesthode of our sauioure Christe Maister D. can not be ignorant that the admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deede properly and not by those whych are priests by a Metaphore and borowed speache And whereas he desyreth to learne where the word priest is taken in euill parte in all the new Testament Although all men see how he asketh thys question of no minde to learne yet if he will learne as he sayeth he shall finde that in the actes of the apostles it is taken diuers tunes in euill parte For seeing that the office and function of ron iereon that is of priests was after our sauyor Christes ascencion naught and vngodly The name wherby they were called whych dyd exercise that vngodly function can not be otherwyse taken then in the euill parte M. Doctor vpon the. 5. leafe citeth M. Caluins authority to proue that the laying on of the handes vpon yong children and the Confirmation whych is heere vsed is good In the whych place although he allow of a kinde of Confirmation yet he doth not commende that whych we haue For he dothe plainly reproue Ierom for saying that it came from the apostles whych notwythstanding the Confirmation wyth vs dothe affirme Besydes that there are other abuses whych I haue noted there whych M. Caluin doth not by any word allow He alloweth in deede of a putting on of handes of the children when they come oute of their childehode or begin to be yong men but as well as he doth allow of it he was one of those whych did thruste it oute of the churche where he was pastor And so he alloweth of it that he bryngeth in the sixt section of the same chapter a strong reason to abolyshe it Where he asketh what the imposition of handes should do now seeing that the geuing of the giftes of the holy ghost by that ceremony is ceased Therfore seeing that we haue M. Caluins reason against thys imposition of hands hys name ought not to be preiudiciall vnto vs especially seing that we haue experience of great inconuenyences whych come by it whych M. Caluin coulde not haue that thyng being not in vse in that church where he lyued Whych inconuenience in thyngs whych are not necessary oughte to be a iust cause of abolyshing of them And thys is not my iudgement only but the iudgement of the churches of Heluetia Berne Tigurine Geneua Scotlande and diuers others as appeareth in the. 19. chapter of their confession Vpon the. 6. leafe M. Doctor sayth that the Pope taketh the sword from Princes but our byshops take it at their hands and geuen of them as thoughe chalenge were not made agaynst the Pope for vsing the materiall sworde and not only for vsing it against the wil of the princes For by that reason if Prynces would put their swordes in hys hand as sometymes they haue done he myghte lawfully vse them And wheras he sayeth that our church men meddle not with all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but suche as helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the church and the state What sayth he that is not truely sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme for no one dothe meddle in all causes And further I woulde gladly knowe what ciuill iurisdiction is in thys realme whych helpeth not vnto the good gouernment of thys church and state For if they meddle wyth all that there is none whych they haue not to do with Vpon the. 7. leafe he sayth that he knoweth not the meaning of the admonition when it proueth that the gouernment of the church is spiritual their meaning is plaine enoughe and I haue declared it more at large to be not only that our sauyor Christ ruleth by hys spirite in the hearts of hys elect besides whych gouernment M. doctor seemeth to know none But that there is also spiritual gouernmēt whych is in the whole church visible to be sene exercised by those whome God hath appoynted in hys stead called spirituall because where as the ciuill gouernment vseth the sword thys vseth the word and where the ciuill gouernor addresseth hymselfe vnto the bodye and hathe that for speciall matter to worke on the spirituall gouernors be occupied in reforming the minde and subduing that wyth those punishments and corrections whych God hath appoynted for that purpose Whych signification of spirituall gouernment M. Caluine doth speake of in bothe the places alledged by M. doctor and especially in the later vnto whom the admonition sent the reader not therby to giue more waight vnto the truth but that he myght haue there a plainer and fuller vnderstanding of that whych it meant and could not for that breuity and shortnes whych it foloweth throughout vtter at large Wherby it is manifest that the admonition is so farre from shutting out eyther ciuill gouernment or externall gouernment in the church that it teacheth of an externall gouernment whych M. doctor semeth not to haue heard of allbeit there be nothing eyther more common in the scryptures or Ecclesiasticall wryters Vpon the. 8. leafe M. doctor sayth he seeth nothyng howe the place of the Ephesians maketh any thing against this maner of speach of the bishop receiue the holy ghost and yet it maketh thus much that for as much as the apostles did vse to pray that the grace of God might be geuen vnto men the byshops shoulde not vse this manner of speache which containeth the forme of a cōmaundement Vpon the. 9. leafe he hath sondry greeuous accusations and charges of disorder disobedience and contempt against those whych refuse the apparel and laboureth to persuade that they are great and waighty matters But hys profes were spent before As for answeare to the articles collected out of the admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors boke where I haue shewed howe the admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise then either it meaneth or speaketh whervnto I will referre the reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not pas by the secrete philosophy whereby M.
doctor would proue that the authors of the admonition affirme it For sayth he by the rule of Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that which is skarce done is not done I say this is secrete for it was neuer taughte neither in Academia nor in Stoa nor Lyceo I haue red Quod fere fit non fit that whych is almost done is not done But I neuer remembre any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of And besides that in our tonge those thyngs whych 〈◊〉 sayde to be skarce are notwythstanding oftentimes supposed to be As when a â—an saith that there is skarce a man aliue c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speache of thyngs whych are as when it sayth the iust man shal skarce be saued it doth not meane that iust men shall not be saued The rest of that I haue answeared And wheras he sayth that it is all one to say that the election of the minister must be made by the church and to say it must be made by the people It is a great ouersyghte to make the parte and whole all one seeing the people be but one parte of the churche and the minister and the other gouernoures are allbeit not the greatest yet the principallest part I graunt that sometimes a part is taken for the whole and so we do call sometimes the gouernors of the churche the churche and sometimes the people But where the question is of the proprietye of these speaches the churche and the people there all men that haue any iudgement can easely put a difference The rest of those articles are answeared in the discourse of the booke Besydes that the faultes whych are found wyth the vntrue gathering of them are not taken away by M. Doctor but only in confident and bolde asseuerations And if I should say any thyng I should but repeate their wordes In the viewe of the second admonition M. Doctor dothe as it seemeth of purpose cull out those thyngs whych he hath spoken on before and in repeatyng of them referreth hys reader vnto hys boke Diuers other matters there are of great weight whych he speaketh not of if he doe approue them it had bene well he had signified hys liking if he do not that he had confuted them And if he trauailed so heauely of brynging forth of thys booke that it was as heauy a burden vnto him as Salomon sayth a fond word is vnto an vnwise man he might haue taken day to answere it Nowe by this slender answearing of it or rather not answearing at all but only asking howe thys and that is proued where as being proued it is vnreproued of hym he doth his cause more harme then he is aware of For vnles hys proufes be ioyned wyth his expulsions imprisonments and with all that racket whych he maketh in Cambridge to the vttermost of that his authority will stretch vnto he may be well assured that their driuing out will draw in the truth and their imprisonment will set the truth at greater libertye and therby proue it selfe to be neither Papistry nor Anabaptistry Donatistry Catharisme nor any other heresy whych are by due correction repressed But as for the truthe of God the more it is laden the straighter it standeth and the more it is kept vnder the more it enforceth it selfe to rise and will vndoubtedly gette vp howe great so euer the stone be whych is layd vpon it And albeit he had no leasure to answere the matters whych required his answere yet he carpeth at by matters and asketh who are meant by the politicke Macheuils What if they meane master doctor and suche other whych vnder the pretence of pollicy would ouerthrowe the churche and that by those thyngs whych haue skarce a shewe of pollicy and in deede ouerturne the pollicy and gouernmeÌ„t of the lord And I pray you tell me M. doctor who be those superyors whych do contemne hate discourage and frumpe those whych execute the lawes of the realme of the which you speake in the. 88. page And where you adde by and by that they enuy all men of great authority witte and pollicy I haue answeared thys speache before And truely I thincke there is not in Meshecke so slaunderous a tonge to be found as thys is nor the Iuniper coales are not comparable wyth it After he accuseth the admonition as if it condemned scholes and vniuersities wyth all manner degrees when it doth but inueigh against degrees giuen of custome rather then of ryghte rather by money then by merite of learning and when titles of doctorshyp be geuen to those whych haue not the offyce of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not do the office if they had it and when men do seeke vaine glory in them and suche lyke For the repetition of Gloria patri c. I haue spoken sufficiently before but what spirite is it that calleth this translation of the word battologefete vse not vaine repetitions a wycked wresting of S. Mathewes place in hys .vj. chapter What rasor is thys that cutteth so sharpe knoweth he against whome and against the excellent learning and singuler piety of howe many he speaketh For thys is the translation of those learned and godlye men whych translated the Bible whych is commoÌ„ly called the Geneua Bible and is thys a wycked wresting Admit it were not translated exactly to the word of the Euangelist is it therfore a wresting and a wicked wresting What I wil not say wicked but false conclusion or doctrine can be grounded of this translation And they that translate it thus haue not only the authority of the Lexicons to confirme their traÌ„slation whych shew that thys word was taken vp in reproche of a folysh Pocte called Battus whych vsed to repeat one thing many times but they haue also the circumstance of the place to warrant it For the reason whych our sauior Christ vseth to draw men from this fault leadeth to thys translation and can not stand with that sense which M. doctor setteth downe For how haÌ„g these togither you shall not babble many wordes wythout faithe c. because your heauenly father knoweth what you haue nede of before you aske It is vnlike first that our sauyor Christ wold speake thus babble not many words without fayth c. when as rather he would haue forbidden them to speake any one word without fayth c. For if he should speake thus he shuld seeme to haue alowed a prayer without fayth so that it were not coÌ„ceiued in many words And againe if as M. doctor sayth this had bene the proposition whych our sauyor Christ disswaded from y they should not babble many words wythout faith c. he would neuer haue added thys reason for your heauenly father knoweth c. for neyther is he father vnto any such And he woulde rather haue sayd as S. Iames sayeth that they should be sure to receiue nothyng because they aske not in faythe Nowe as thys
and that to be vnderstanded of our ministers which was of theirs or of our faultes which was of theirs Thys is not the way to Anabaptisme but to all heresies and schismes that euer haue bene or shall be For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture as you begin you will leaue vs nothing in the ende wherewith we may eyther defend our selues agaynst heretikes or be able to strike at them Whereas you say there is a great difference betweene the seueritie of the law and lenitie of the gospell me thinkes I smell a spice of the error of the Maniches which were also schollers in that behalfe of the olde hereticke Cerdon that there is a good and an euill a gentle and a seuere God one vnder the law and an other vnder the gospell For to saye that God was then a seuere punysher of sinne and that now he is not at so great hatred wyth it but that he will haue it gentlyer and softlyer dealt with is euen all one in effect with that which supposeth two Goddes I will ioyne with you in it that the transgressyons of the law in the tyme of the gospell oughte rather to be seuerelyer punyshed then they were vnder the law for as muche as the knowledge is greater and the aboundance of the spirite of God whereby the lawes are kept is more plentifull then vnder the lawe At this tyme I will content me with the place of Zach. which prophesying of the kingdome of Christe and of the tyme of the gospell sayth that then the father and mother of the false Prophet shall cause theyr owne sonne to bee put to deathe It is as absurde which is brought to proue that the papistes whiche worshippe God falsly doe not faulte so haynously as the Israelites dyd which worshipped the Idolles As who shoulde saye the Iewes or any other the grossest idolaters that euer were dyd euer take those thinges which they worshipped Serpentes Oxen Fire Water c. to be God or knew not the Images before which they fell downe were Woode or Stone Siluer and Gold. And who knoweth not that they thought that they worshipped by them and in them the God which made heauen earth The Iewes when they molted a golden calfe and fell downe before it did neuer thinke that to be God * but sayde that they wold kepe holy day to the Lord Iehouah Wherein I will put you ouer to the learned treatises of the godly new wryters which do refute this distinction being brought of the papistes as a shift to proue that the Idolatrie which is forbidden in the olde Testament toucheth not them because they worship God by these things and the idolatrous Iewes and infidels worshipped nothing else nor loked at nothing else thē the bare things before which they fell down Which selfe same distinction you bring to proue that papistrie is not so detestable as the idolatrie of the Iewes It may be that certayne of the Gentiles worshipped by their images Iupiter and Iuno c. but you can not shew that the Israelites euer worshipped any other God then the true God so that their fault was only in that they worshipped him otherwise then he had appoynted And the Gentiles that worshipped many Gods worshipped one as the head and cheefe and the rest as small companions and as they termed them minorum gentium deos as the papistes doe God as the cheefe and the sainctes as other petie gods And here all men may see what a good proctor you be for the papistes bothe in lestning their faultes and abating their punishments and yet will not I saye that you are conspired with them or haue receiued your see of them But if you can shew where or in what one poynt those that you charge with confederacie haue layde so softe pillowes vnder their heades as these are they refuse not to be called confederate and conspired with the papistes To the next section in the. 40. page WHat should become of the people in the meane season whilest they learne their Catechisme and when they haue learned it they are no more fitte to be Ministers and to teach other then he that hath learned his Accidence is meete to set vp a schole And it can not be defended but it was a grosse ouer sight to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme It were much to compel them to read it And if a man would haue declamed agaynst the ignoraunce of the most part of the ministers three whole dayes together he could not haue sayde more against them then that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion How know you that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision being also placed there But how followeth this it is meete that ministers shoulde learne euerye day therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Cathechismes it is meete they shoulde reade Cathechismes therefore meete to learne them and be enioyned to learne them is there nothing worthyer the learning and profession of the minister then to learne Cathechismes or dothe a manne learne those thinges alwayes which he readeth dothe he not reade thinges some tyme to record the things that he hath learned For because they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Cathechisme you conclude of their wordes that they would not haue a minister to learne or to reade any thing which is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther as you are from the reasonable and vpright expounding of them To the two next sections in the. 41. and. 42. page IT hath bene likewise shewed what was in that election extraordinarie and what pertayneth to the ordinarie callings And in the .vj. of the Actes it was shewed that if the Deacons shoulde not be thrust vppon the congregation agaynst the will of it muche lesse ought the minister And if that congregation had by the commaundement of the Apostles an interest in the choyse of their gouernoures I see not why the same commaundement remayneth not to be followed of other churches Your reasons wherewith you would make difference shal be after considered The Answere to the next section being the 43. page and vntill I adde which is in the 44. page VNto these places of the first and sixthe of the Actes is added first the place of the fourtenth of the Actes where the authors of the admonition do proue that the election ought not to be in one man hys hand but ought to be made by the churche agaynst which M. Doctor taketh three exceptions The first is for that it is sayde that Paule and Barnabas ordayned Elders whereby he would conclude that the congregations had nothing to doe But how siender a reason that is it may be considered of infinite
witnesses are Popes whereof the first and best ordained that if the Metropolitane did not fetche hys pall at the apostolike sea of Rome wythin three monthes after he were consecrated that then he should lose his dignity as Gratian witnesseth in the decrees y he ascribeth vnto Damasus I doubt not therfore that this is but a forger vpon whom you would father the archdeacon for that Damasus in whose place you put this forger liued An. 387. at what time the sea of Rome had no suche tirannye as thys and other things which are fathered of him do pretēd And if this be enough to proue archdeacons I can with better witnes proue subdeacons acoluthes exorcistes lectores ostiarios these dothe Eusebius make mention of an auncienter wryter then any you bring and out of Ruffine Theodoret Sozomen Socrates c. monks almost in euery page And heere vpon it is more lawfull for me to conclude that monkes subdeacons exorcistes acoluthes ostiarij lectores are necessary ecclesiasticall orders in the church as you conclude the necessity of the archdeacon I perceiue you care not whether the archdeacon fall or no that you bestow so little coste of hym and leaue him so nakedly And if I woulde be but halfe so holde in coniectures and diuinations as you are I coulde say that thys sleighte handling of the archdeacon and sweating so muche aboute the archbyshoppe is thervpon y you woid be loth to come frō being deane to be an archdeacon you liue in some hope of being archbyshop but I will not enter so farre And surely for any thing that I see you might haue trussed vp the archbyshop as shorte as you do the archdeacon For they stand vpon one pinne and those reasons whych establishe the one establishe the other wherevpon also commeth to passe that all those reasons whych were before alledged against the archbishop may be drawn against the archdeacon hauing therfore before proued the vnlawfulnes of them I will heere set downe the difference betweene those archdeacons that were in times past and those whych are nowe whereby it may appeare they are nothing like but in name They were no ministers as appeareth in Sozomen oures are They were tied to a certaine churche and were called archdeacon of suche a congregation or churche oures are tied to none but are called archdeacons of suche a shire They were chosen by all the Deacons of the churche where they be archdeacons oures are appoynted by one man and whych is no deacon They were subiect to the minister of the word oures are aboue them and rule ouer them It was counted to them great arrogancie if they preferred thēselues to any minister or elder of the churche oures will not take the best ministers of the churche as their equalles If therfore archdeacons will haue any benefite by the archdeacons of olde time it is meete they shoulde content them selues wyth that place whych they were in As for the office of a deane as it is vsed wyth vs it is therfore vnlawfull for that he being minister hathe no seuerall charge or congregation appoynted wherein he maye exercise hys ministerie and for that he is ruler and as it were maister of diuers other ministers in hys colledge whych likewise haue no seueral charges of congregations and for that whych is most intollerable bothe he hym selfe oftentimes hauing a seuerall churche or benefice as they call it is vnder the coloure of hys deaneship absent from hys churche and suffereth also those that are vnderneathe hym to be likewise absent from their churches And whereas M. Doctor alleageth S. Augustine to proue thys office to be auncient in deede the name is there founde but besides the name not one propertye of that Deane whych we haue For Augustine speaking of the monkes of those dayes sayeth that the money which they gate wyth the labor of their hands they gaue to their deane which did prouide them meate and drinke and cloth and all things necessary for them so that the monkes shoulde not be drawne away from their studies and meditations throughe the care of worldly things so that thys deane whych he speaketh of was seruaunt and steward and cater to the monkes and therfore only called deane because he was steward and cater to ten monkes Now let it be seene what Augustines deane maketh for the deane whych is nowe and what faith and trust M. Doctor vseth in reciting of the olde fathers And vnto the ende that these testimonies might be more autenticall haue some waight in them M. Doctor addeth that hetherto antichrist had not inuaded the seat of Rome You shall haue much a do to proue that antichrist had not inuaded the sea of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote Nay it is moste certaine that then he had possessed it But what is that to the purpose althoughe there was no one singulare head appeared or lifted vp yet corruption of doctrine and of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion and pompe of the cleargye newe orders and functions of the ministerie whych were the handes that pulled hym the fete whych brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued him vp into that seate were in the church Neither while you doe thus speake doe you seeme to remember that this monster needed nine monethes but almoste nine hundreth yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could wyth all his partes be brought to light And although the Loouer of thys antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations therof being secretely and vnder the ground laid in the apostles times you might easely know that in those times that you speake of the building was wonderfully aduaūced and growne very highe And being a very dangerous thing to ground any order or pollicy of the church vpon men at all whych in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the apostles I wil shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to sende vs for our examples and paternes of gouernment to these times whych he doth direct vs vnto Eusebius oute of Egesippus wryteth that as long as the apostles liued the churche remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they did it in the darke as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the apostles and the generation was past whych God vouchsaued to heare the deuine wisedome wyth their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the church Clement also in a certaine place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately after the apostles times alledgeth the prouerbe that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers And Socrates sayeth of the church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous churches in the apostles times that about the yeare 430. the Romaine and Alexandrian byshops leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a
seculare rule or dominion Wherevpon we see howe that it is safe for vs to go to the scriptures and to the apostles times for to fetch our gouernmēt and order And that it is very dangerous to drawe from those riuers the fountaines wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie then is the head it selfe And although M. Doctor hathe brought neither scripture nor reason nor councel wherin there is either name of archbishop or archdeacon or proued that there may be although he shewe not so much as the name of them 400. yeres after our sauioure Christ And although where he sheweth them they be eyther by counterfait authors or wythout any worde of approbation of good authors yet as though he had shewed all and proued all hauing shewed nothing nor proued nothing he clappeth the hands to himselfe and putteth the crowne vpon hys owne heade saying that those that be learned may easely vnderstande that the names archbishop archdeacon primate patriarche be most auncient and approued of the eldest best worthiest councels fathers wryters And a little afterward that they are vnlearned and ignorant whych say otherwise Heere is a victory blowne wyth a great and sounding trumpet that might haue bene piped wyth an oten straw And if it shuld be replied againe that M. Doctor hathe declared in thys little learning little reading and les iudgement there might grow controuersies wythout all frute And by and by in saying that the archbyshops beginning is vnknown in stead of a bastard which some brought into the church that hid them selues because they were ashamed of the childe he will make vs beleeue that we haue a new Melchisedech without father wythout mother and whose generation is not knowne and so concludeth wyth the place of S. Augustine as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. epistle to Ianuarie that the originall of them is from the apostles them selues Heere M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory as thoughe he had not Augustine by him when he wrote this sentence And yet he maruellously forgetteth him selfe for he vsed this place before in hys 23. page and citeth it there precisely and absolutely where also I haue shewed howe vnaduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued howe that therby a window is open to bring in all popery and whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions That the names of Lordes and honor as they are vsed in this realme are not meete to be giuen to the ministers of the gospell there hath bene spoken before As for Prelate of the Garter if it be a nedefull office there are inow to execute it besides the ministers whych for as much as they be apoynted to watch ouer the soules of men purchased wyth the bloud of Christ all men vnderstande that it is not meete that they should attend vpon the body much les vpon the leg and least of all vpon the Garter It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue ministers of their honor but also it is not lawful to take those that God hath appoynted for an other ende to vse to suche purposes Thou seest heere good Reader that M. Doctor keepeth hys olde wonte of manifest peruerting of the wordes and meaning of the authors of the admonition for where as they say that the name of Earle Countie Palatine Iustice of peace and Quorum Commissioner are antichristian when they are geuen to ministers of the church whose calling wil not agree wyth such titles he concludeth simply that they say that they be altogither vnlawfull and simply antichristian As if I should reason that it is not meete that the Quenes maiesty shuld preach or minister the Sacraments therefore it is not meete that there should be any preaching or ministering of the sacraments Now letting pas all your hard words vnbrotherly speaches wyth your vncharitable Prognostications and colde prophesies I will come to examine whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office then you had in prouing the name And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the archbyshop he blew the trompet before the victory here in this of the office he bloweth it before he commeth into the fielde or striketh one stroke saying that they little consider what they wryte that they are contemners of auncient wryters that they neuer red them and that they are vnlearned which deny these things which he affirmeth Wel what we read how vnlearned we are is not the matter which we striue for The iudgement thereof is first wyth God and then with the churches and in their iudgements we are content to rest But if you be so greatly learned and we so vnlearned and smally red then the truth of our cause shall more appeare that is maintained wyth so small learning reading against men of suche profound knowledge and great reading And yet I knowe not why if we be not to idle we shuld not be able to read as much as you which may haue leisure to read a good long wryter or euer you can ryde only to see and salute your houses and liuings being so many and so farre distāt one from an other And if we be so vnlearned and holde suche dangerous opinions of Papistrie and Anabaptistry as you beare men in hand we do why do you not by the example of the ministers in Germanie procure a publike disputatiō where you may both win your spurres and such detestable opinions wyth the ignorance of the authors may be displayed vnto the whole world But let vs heare what is sayd Cyprian sayth he speaking of the office of an archbyshop c. Onles good reader thou wilt first beleue that Cyprian speaketh of an archbyshop and haste before conceiued a strong imagination of it M. Doctor can proue nothing Aristotle sayeth that vncunning Painters wryte the names of the beastes whych they painte in their tables for because otherwise it coulde not be knowne what they painte so M. Doctor mistrusting that the archbyshop will not be knowne by his description wryteth first the name of that he wil paint out Thys is it whych we striue about wherof the cōtrouersy is and this M. doctor taketh for graunted He accuseth the authors of the admonition for faulting in the petition of the principle or desiring to haue that graunted whych is denyed yet I am sure that in the whole admonition there is not such a grosse petition as thys is Where or in what wordes dothe S. Cyprian speake of the office of an archbyshop And heere by the way it is to be obserued of the reader how neare a kin the Pope and the archbishop be For this office is confirmed by the same places that the popes is the places and arguments which are brought againste hym are soluted wyth the same solutions that they vse whych maintaine the papacie For these places of Cyprian be alledged for the popes supremacye and in deede they make as
and that the mynister made prayers and thankes geuing in the hearing of the people which is that which the Euangelistes call the blessing and hath bene of later tymes called the consecration and after that the people were partakers of them that then thys being done the deacons dyd cary of that which was left vnto those which were not present for that corruption of sending the communion vnto the houses was then in the churche agaynst which I haue before spoken now if to cary to a priuate house the breade and wyne which was blessed or set a part by prayers by obeying the institution of Christ by the mynister be to mynister the sacrament of the supper then Serapions boye of whome mention is made by Eusebius mynistred the sacrament For Serapion being sicke as I haue before shewed and sending hys boye to the mynister for the sacrament receiued the same at the handes of hys boye for that the mynister being sicke could not come hym selfe so by M. Doctors reason Serapions boye mynistred the sacrament And a man would not thinke that one that hath bene the Quenes Maiesties publike professor of diuinitie in Cambridge should not know to distinguish put a difference betwene mynistring the sacrament helping to distribute the bread and the cup of the sacrament And if M. Doctor could not learne thys in bokes yet he might haue eyther sene it or at least heard tell of it in all the reformed churches almost where the Deacons doe assist the mynister in helping of hym to distribute the cuppe and in some places also the bread for the quicker and spedyer dispatch of the people being so many in number that if they should all receiue the bread and the cuppe at the mynisters hand they should not make an end in eight houres which by that assistance may be finished in two which is tha◠that M. Caluin sayth For he sayth the Deacons dyd reach the cup maketh no mention of the bread And if thys be to mynister the sacrament then they that cut the loafe in peeces they that fetch the wine for the supper they that poure it forth from greater vessels into glasses and cuppes or whosoeuer aydeth any thing in thys action doe mynister the sacrament then the which thing there can be nothing more ridyculous In the ende M. Doctor to shut vp thys matter sayth that it is the first steppe to the mynistery and so ioyned of S. Paule in the third chapter and first Epistle to Timothe But what a reason is thys to be a Deacon is the first step to the mynistery therefore the Deacon may preach and mynister the sacraments when as the contrary rather followeth For if it be a step to the mynistery then it is not the mynistery but differeth from it and so ought not to doe the things that belong to the mynister But I deny that it is or ought to be alwayes a steppe to the mynistery I knew that it hath bene the vse of long tyme I know also that there be very many which interpreate the place of S. Paule where he speaking of the Deacons that behaue them selues well that they get them selues a good bathmon that is a degree to be a mynister or a byshop But I will shew a manifest reason why it can not so be vnderstanded which is for that as the functions of a Deacon or a mynister are dyuers so are the giftes also wherby those functions are executed likewyse dyuers And therefore there may be some men for their wisedome and grauitie discretion and faythfulnesse and whatsoeuer other giftes are required in hym that shoulde doe thys office of prouyding for the poore and to be a good Deacon which notwithstanding for some impediment in hys tongue or for want of vtterance shall neuer be able as long as he lyueth to be a good mynister of the word and therefore the giftes being dyuers wherewith those offices must be executed although it is neyther vnlawfull nor vnmeete to make of a Deacon a mynister if he haue giftes for that purpose yet I deny that S. Paule appoynteth that the Deaconship shoulde be as it were the seede or frie of the mynisters or that he meaneth by those words that the Deaconship is a steppe to the pastorshyp Which may yet also further appeare by the phrase of speach which the Apostle vseth For he doth not say that they that do the office of Deaconship well shall come to or get a good standing but he sayth that in so doing they doe gette themselues a good standing that is they get themselues authoritie estimation in the church whereby they may be both the bolder to doe their office and whereby they may doe it with more frute Whereas when they liue naughtely they neyther dare doe oftentimes that which they should doe nor yet that which they doe well taketh so good effect because of the discredite which commeth by their euill behauiour And so I conclude that M. Doctor hath brought hetherto nothing to proue why either Deacōs ought or else haue wont eyther to preach or to mynister the sacramentes And albeit M. Doctor be not able to shew it yet I confes that it hath bene in tymes past permitted vnto them in some churches to baptise in other some to preach and baptise and sometymes also to mynister the supper but I say also that thys was a corruption and vsed at those tymes when there were many other grose vntollerable abuses from the which I doe appeale vnto that which was first that is the institution of the Apostles which lymitted and bounded euery function within hys seuerall limites and borders which it ought not to passe Vnto the three next sections contayned in the. 94. 95. and a peece of the. 96. pages touching that which is called the introite and fragments of the Epistles and Gospels and the rehersall of the Nicene Crede I haue declared before the causes of our mislyking neyther meane I to stand to refute the slaunderous surmises which M. D. rayseth of the authors of the Admonition wherby he would bring thē into the suspitiō of Arrianisme to whom all those that feare God beare witnes y they are most far from He him selfe notwithstanding once again in the last of these three sections 96. page doth lay the manyfest foundations of that part of Anabaptisme which standeth in hauing al things common saying directly agaynst S. Peter that in the tyme of the Apostles Christians had proprietie in nothing And further geuing great cause of triumph of the one syde to the Catabaptistes and such as deny the baptisme of yong infants in matching that with those things which the church may although not without incommoditie yet without impietie be without and of the other syde vnto the papistes whilest he sayth that we reade not of any women which receiued the Lords supper in the Apostles tyme For thys is that they alledge to proue theyr vnwritten verityes when as