such commoditie reaped as is there to bee had it be answered among the rest bee the ende of the commaundement of the exaction and of the going to church what haue you to say there against Yf the Cōmissioners deale not onely equally but very mildely and courteously without too farre racking mens consciences and hoping that in exercises of religion and matters apperteining to God men will not play the hypocrites but haue farder respect then to make it an eye seruice outwardly to satisfie and please the worlde and knowing that comming to church they shall heare and finde better matter of instruction and so learne their dutie towardes G O D and their Prince they moue suche as by you are peruerted to come to churche what cause haue you or they to make such Tragicall adoe vpon this vpright and fauourable proceeding To playne of the seueritie and suche cruell extremitie of this State as neuer was hearde of in England before c. This confession of your owne mouth greatly condemneth you As you finde your owne religion to be but hypocrisie so imagine you of the religion here professed but amisse For her Maiestie and the lawes seeke not to make men hypocrites they delight in no such their meaning is to haue men religious to God warde and thereto tende their commaundements in this behalfe c. If you make going to churche heere to bee a renouncing of Popery and of your pretended catholike religion as you say it is we graunte and we wish as many as goe to church to leaue halting on both sides or dissembling to cast away that corrupt religion and all superstition out of their heartes to take a newe and better course and to testifie by that meanes and all other as they may their religious and honest minds to Godwarde the worlde which is so farre of that wee thinke too bee hurtfull vnto them as wee iudge it a singular benefits if they can consider thereof accordingly Where on the contrary part we iudge their not going to church or their going with another minde then wee haue expressed not only to bee to themselues dangerously hurtful and to others but impious also and wicked before God The other and seconde proofe yee take from those of your owne side that are heere indurance which being many in number and of long time suffering imprisonment for this onely thing as yee say doe make abstaining from church to bee a proper and peculiar signe of a true Catholike For what doth make a thing to be a proper and peculiar signe but the iudgement and opinion of men Heereto you adioyne your example of the Tauerne bushe to be the signe of wine wee answere the similitude is vnapt and vnlikely that is taken from signes and tokens of ciuill thinges appertaining to the vse of this life which are in mens power and will to dispose and order at their pleasure where it is otherwise in cases of Gods true religion for therein men haue not that libertie but must take the holy signes thereof from the holy God But you adde also your former example brought with you out of Italie of a Iewes yellowe Bonnet and ye fetche vs a thirde out of Turkie for to knowe a Turke and his profession by his yellowe Torbant which and all the like are vnseemely and vnfitt to match in this case with the true religion of Iesus Christ. Let then the worlde or men in ciuill and outwarde matters of this life make their representations and signes as they will let the like serue if yee will among the Iewes the Turkes In fidels Papistes Whose religion is pleasurable a will worship and consisting for the most part in ceremonies and deuises inuented by men Let them deuise and haue their proper and peculiar signes markes cognisances and badges to bee knowne by let vs abstaine from the same Let vs content our selues with those that we haue receiued from the Authour of our Religion Let vs religiously frequent and vse the same When our Sauiour Christ asketh whence the Baptisme of Iohn was whether from heauen or from men He noteth fitly the diuerse fountaines and beginning of signes in religiō The example of wearing a garlande in the Primitiue Church wherewith out of Tertulian yee amplifie the matter perteyneth as litle to the purpose as the rest For it was heathenishly wickedly made by the heathen a signe to distinguish them by and to represent their heathenish religion to the dammage of Christians and true Christian religion marke that wee speake still of publike religious signes not of other in outwarde ciuill thinges and for mens particular vses wherein men haue more libertie then in Gods religion and seruice prophane or ciuill matters wee here deale not with That such thinges haue beene and are from time to time done by the diuell and wicked men in wicked religion is not harde to be founde and that true Christians haue to abstaine from such markes and proper signes of superstitious and naughtie religion as for example frō your Popish ceremonies at this day may well and fitly bee prooued hereby and farder can ye not stretche it vnlesse ye coulde proue the haunting of holye Churche assemblies here first and principally to proceede from men or from the diuell Which you shall neuer be able to doe God himselfe being the Authour and the same being sufficiently grounded in his holie worde Make you and your compagnions of going to Churche here what you will and of abstayning there from We make thereof as God and his worde doe and no more If for your contempt of God her Maiestie and her wholsome lawes made for the abolishing of superstition and idolatrie ye suffer any thing Thanke your selues that so oppose your selues Blame 〈◊〉 God her Maiestie nor the State here therefore If for this onely thing your men suffer that they goe not to Church then suffer they not belike for defence of the Popes supremacie nor other pointes of Poperie if they doe then is it not for abstayning from Church onely which in deede is but a late taken vp scrupulositie among the moste of you yet let all marke and obserue that ye here affirme and giue vs that the onely thing Papistes suffer for here in Englande is for not going to Churche or abstaining therefrom A worthy cause to stande with the Prince and State in if all be well weighed The vanitie of the three next Reasons of Schisme participation and dissimulation do I nothing doubt but that euery Christian can easily espie and answere the same That therefore which hath been sayde before being well weighed I shall neede the lesse to tarrie thereupon If this discourser coulde as easily proue it to be Schisme to haunt our Churches vs to be Heretikes and those hollowe hearted that hauing afore time in the dayes of ignoraunce been of their Popish religion nowe haunt our Churches which wee yet hope well they doe of synceritie of heart If I say hee coulde as easily
proue this as he onely affirmeth the same and occupieth himselfe in prouing that requireth no proofe with vs wee shoulde haue more a doe with him He is occupied in shewing at large howe bad Schisme and Schismatiks heresie and heretiks bee how to bee detested and their company shunned what punishment they deserue and haue to looke for c. But that our religion and we are such and in this case there is hee for proofe in effect muet And yet except that be prooued not supposed onely the rest serueth to little purpose For the vnitie of Christes Church we haue diligently to obserue that as it is and ought to bee with euery of vs precious so to consider again that the same is grounded in the vnitie that we haue with our Sauiour Christ the father without whom there is no sound vnitie Further we haue to note that it is called the vnitie of the spirit for that it is begunne continued and kept by the spi rit of God in spirituall and heauenly matters And these two pointes be expressed in the very textes here cited by this Reasoner out of the Gospell and S. Paule for one 〈◊〉 forme of beliefe one forme of Seruice one forme of Sacramentes and the like that this man sayth shoulde bee in Christes Churche as it is very obscurely and shortly spoken so I see no such 〈◊〉 thereof So we may haue the substance and matter for formes we will not greatly striue If there be any matter of importance we like well the synceritie of Christian religion and Apostolike simplicitie bee alwaies kept The wayght force of Christian vnity lieth in deed in greater pointes than in outwarde formes wherof ye make mention out of S Paule and may see more in the Acts of the Apostles c. Concerning the testimonies of the Fathers we graunt with Irenaee that heretikes that bring strange fire to the Lordes Aulter that is as hee expoundeth strange doctrines shalbe burned as Nadab and Abiu They that rise vp against the truth and exhort other against the Church of God remaine in hell swallowed vp with y t opening of the earth as they about Chore Dathan and Abirom They that cut and seuer the vnitie of the Church haue the same punishment of God that Ieroboam had What is this against vs why may not the same bee applyed vnto you and your doctrines and dealinges with this Church Let the Gospel and Spirit of life be the Piller and strength of the Church Let it bee the foundation and Piller of our Fayth as the same Irenaee speaketh Doe not as Irenaee sayth heretikes doe and we finde you to doe who whē they are reproued by y t scriptures are turned into the accusation of the scriptures themselues as though they were not right nor were of authoritie both because they are diuersly vttered and also because the Truth cannot be found out by them of such as know not Tradition c and you will haue little vantage Augustine also in his book or Epistle of the vnitie of the Church against Petilians Epistle helpeth you and your case very little For the question was then where the Church was whether euery where or bounde to a certaine place person and sect or no As for example Aphrica Donatus and Donatistes then Rome Pope and Papistes nowe Augustine there tyeth the Churche to no Sea maketh Christe alone the heade thereof and the Churche Christes body dispersed ouer the face of the whole earth Againe Augustine alleadgeth and prooueth also out of the holy Scriptures as none can deny the same but hee that professeth himselfe to bee an enimie to the same Scriptures Let vs not heare saith hee I say thus thou sayest thus but let vs heare Thus saith the Lord. There be verily the bookes of the Lord to the authoritie whereof we both agree we both giue credite we both serue There let vs seeke the Churche there let vs discusse our cause I will not haue the holy Church shewed by the doctrines of men but by heauenly Oracles on infallible truth of God Nowe adde your wordes that you heere alleadge out of Augustine yet so if it please you as ye take the beginning of the chapter afore you and so come orderly to your wordes here cited which are after the beginning of the chapter whole Christ sayth hee is the heade the body The head is the onely begotten sonne of God and the bodie his Church the Bridegroome and the Bride Two in one fleshe Whosoeuer dissent from the scriptures concerning the head himselfe thus doe you in making vs two spirituall heades of the Church Christ and the Pope though they be found in all places wherin there is a church to be pointed they are not in the Church And againe whoeuer agree to the holy scriptures concerning the head himselfe and communicate not with the vnitie of the Churche are not in the Church because they dissent from Christes owne testimonie of Christes body which is the Church c. These be Austens woords agreeing with that is afore that we learne to discerne and know the true Church of Christe aright by the scriptures and not otherwise And that wee learne to beginne with Christ the heade and so come downe to the Church his bodie and keepe no preposte rous order Now let the reader hardly reade and examine your wordes and iudge of the whole In y e eleuenth chapter of the same booke of the vnitie of the Churche doth Austen notably write hereof Touching Cyprian Chrisostome and the rest for the vnitie of the Church we willingly admitte that they say so as with Cyprian yee will saye concerning false peace and agreement That is no peace but warr neither is he ioyned to the Church that is separated from the Gospell And w t Chrisostome or who euer it were ioyned w t Chrisostomes works for them that will knowe whiche is the true Church of Christ There is now no way to know y e same but only by the scriptures c. The ignorāce wherof brought foorth heresie corrupt life and mingled and turned all vpside downe as Chrisostome sayth elsewhere As for vs we ioyn with those that are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Jesus Christ him selfe being the head corner stone c. We broch no newe doctrine no newe religion we make no separation But as we beleeue that there is a Holy catholike church and a communion of Saintes so as members and partes we ioyne our selues to the same dispersed ouer the whole worlde in vnitie of Christes true doctrine and in loue and peace with all reuerence The Antichristian Sinagogue of Rome as it reiecteth vs with Christ and his doctrine so againe doe we detest and goe out from it as from that Babylon whereof mētion is so oft and much made in the scriptures In summe whether we be heritikes or you Let Christ let the worde
euill day I counsayle you And yet I meane not so much in this world as in that to come God giue vs all his grace Amen Imprinted at London at the three Cranes in the Vintree by Thomas Dawson for Toby Smyth dwelling in Paules Churchyarde at the signe of the Crane 1581. An appendix or addition for aunsweare to the Authors recapitulation in the ende of his Treatise BEfore you conclude vp this first parte of your discourse you gather for 〈◊〉 sake to the vnlearned foure conclusions takē out of y t you haue to fore said which being falsly supposed rather then duely proued might easily haue been heere omitted But it is to the vnlearned You may not bee gaine standed You wil haue no nay You wil not nowe dispute of the matter you say all must be supposed indeede the vnlearned vnstable are easeliest seduced and brought to wrest euen the Scriptures to their owne destruction as blessed Peter reporteth The godlier learned wise wil cal you know for sounde proofe of the matter you thinke to carrie all afore you vpon your owne credite it is no reason it may not be Going to Hereticall assemblies we graunt you is prohibited Christians by the lawe of nature of God and of his true Church not to be dispensed with by any mortall man but where when and how proue you that our Church assēblies be hereticall this would haue beene proued which you put off before you had beene so rash to haue without warrāt or ground pronounced it vnlawfull to haunt our Churche assemblies What it aduauntageth your side to suppose that which you cannot proue and lieth in controuersie betweene vs I wote not but easily may one perceiue that it sauoureth neyther of trueth nor of learning which you so confidently affirme Till you can conuince vs therefore of heresie our assemblies to be hereticall which while we may be hearde to make answere will neuer bee giue vs leaue to turne on your owne heades that which you charge vs with And forasmuch as our men haue prooued Papistes Heretikes and their Idolatrous assemblies heretical giue the Pastors and other godlie Learned leaue to admonish all the faithfull to abstayne therefrom as frō prohibited vnlawfull things where you especially haue nothing to doe or not to commād at least And seeing the case thus standeth nowe betweene these two religious that of the Protestantes and Papists In the meane while till you can more sufficiently then hitherto reproue our Church assemblies let vs craue at your hands to shewe that the whole act of going to Churche is as it is of you Papistes sayde to bee prohibited also Iure diuino naturali that is by the Lawe of GOD and nature For wee holde the contrary not by Supposition as you doe but by good warrant of God his woorde reason and experience to witte that to haunt Churche assemblies is a thing 〈◊〉 on GOD his Lawe Whether we respect the olde Testament or the newe and also on the Lawe of nature as not experience onelye taken from the Heathen and the example of them that haue amongest them any exercise of Religion but reason also sufficiently teache and not to haunt Churche meetinges on the other side or vttetly to abstayne therefrom is a contempt and vtter denying of all Religion If therfore you will needes busie your selfe where you haue no cause and little thanke of autoritye for your laboure shewe eyther your selfe more religious and fauourable in speaking for Churche meetinges or prooue more substantially then hitherto the faultes wherewith you charge the same heere amonge vs especially seeing all the worlde maye knowe and iudge that our meetinges in the excercise of Religion daylye are not onelye voyde of Idolatrye wherewith your meetinges are 〈◊〉 but tende also to the 〈◊〉 and comforte of our consciences vnto the good example of other in making publike confession of our sinnes and the Christian fayth in hearing GOD his holie woorde making publike prayers participating of the holye Sacraments c. which we take to be the principall endes and chiefest vses of Christian assemblies in steede of gasing crooching crossing pyping singing and other ceremoniall fashions in vse among you For the rest whether it bee impossible to bee so that your Pope shoulde offer too her Maiestye to confirme the Englishe seruice vppon condition to recouer his Supremacie heere in Englande whiche hee is farre from and GOD so keepe him still and whether his authoritie be aboue the Scriptures so as hee may dispense with thinges agaynst GOD his Lawe or no I leaue to the Authoures that first inuented such brabbles to occupie mens heades with all Onelye this in perusing of late I remember N. Saunders an Archepapiste among you English Romanists handeling this latter question of the Popes authoritie in dispensing against the woorde of God disputeth whether the Pope may not dispence agaynst the Apostle thus mynceth hee thinges and for his aduantage propoundeth this question and hee affirmeth as one put to his shiftes therein that the Pope may doe or suffer to bee doone sometime otherwise then the Apostle commaundeth and ordereth As for example where the Apostle commaundeth if any brother haue a wife that beleeueth not If she be content to dwell with him let him not forsake her The Pope may for some respect dispēce giue the man leaue to put a way such a wife cōtent desirous to dwell with her husband and further he may giue him leaue to marry an other contrary to the Apostles doctrine and cōmaundement With which he hath authoritie to dispense though the former wife haue committed no fault against her husband after their mariage And why not I pray you when hee hath done still doth and can doe greater thinges then this whereof I enter not now to entr eate vpon this occasion particularly nor to examine Saunders cauilles and meere shifts indeede and no better The Learned know this man of sinne well ynough and the excessiue authoritie he vsurpeth and chalengeth The vnlearned I thinke are sufficiently warned before Let all that are Godlie take heede of dealing with Pope or Papistes in mariage or otherwise In the seconde conclusion you bring no newe matter but turne vs ouer to the olde and therefore I also send the Reader to that I haue before particularly answeared In the thirde conclusion it greeueth you her Maiesties Subiectes bee and shoulde bee so obedient to her godlie commaundements and therefore where obedience for going to Churche is alleadged you call it a A vayne pretence As the holie Scriptures for the grounde of our G O D his seruice were a greate blocke lying in your way wherewith you were troubled before and therevppon trauelled to inuay agaynst the sacred Scriptures So now heere her Maiesties authoritie grounded on the Scriptures and ioyning therein with the Mynisters doctrine and exhortation to call her Subiectes to holie assemblies lyeth in your way agayne and combreth you greately
her Maiestie taken from the Authours person and the matter cunningly to get thereby good will to prepare and stirre vp attention which together with the amplifications of your pretended extremities and the like necessitie of complaint you are brought vnto your exaggerations on the one side and extenuations on the other with such ornaments and floures to mooue pitie if they were true and in a good and iust cause might for their pretie handeling delight haue some vse sauing they bee somewhat too open As schoole furniture to moue with they may be kept for the exercise of youth or to sporte and refreshe mens mindes withall This floorishing greatly beseemeth not the profession and persons of Diuines In a word to say euery thing considered there is no cause why you should haue troubled her Maiestie with such paltrie whereof let the Christian Reader after examination iudge The Authours dutifull respect euery way and M. Howlets too to her Highnesse her honourable Lordes of the Councell and the whole state of her noble Realme might without vaunt haue been left to haue been iudged by her Maiesties wisedome and theirs and to haue had cōmendation by other whē it should haue been found better then it is These men seeke by all meanes wayes they can to disioyne her Maiestie from her lawes and the Ministers thereof from her loyall subiects to they go about to withdrawe with themselues other her subiects from obedience to God and her Maiestie and when this dealing is by order of lawe but somewhat crossed then is outcrie and complaint of tyrannie and crueltie greater then euer hath beene hearde of in England before or is in any prince in Christendome or than is vsed among the Turkes at this day This comparison is not M. Howlet ashamed to make and therein agreeth with his authour This is great dutifulnesse sure Like is the modestie and humilitie of both your spirites sauing that if there be any difference M. Howlets in a diuers kinde of writing sheweth it selfe to bee more shamelesse as through the whole too much appeareth dealing especially with the Queenes most excellent Maiestie Hee may not thinke the Oratours rule that an Epistle biusheth not wil serue his turne heere it is out of place to excuse thereby impudent vntruthes and slaunders In perusing this writing let the Christian Reader still iudge whether M. Howlet bee not a sectarie if this be a note of a sectaries spirits proceeding as he here tels vs what modestie and humblenesse of spirite may this bee called in the Authour of this treatise who is so highly in this respect commended heere by M. Howlet When not contented through his whole discourse to compare and liken the profession and professours of the Gospell to the Heretikes both olde and newe hee chargeth Gods seruice heere nowe vsed with falshood and blasphemie also and pronoūceth vs to bee condemned yet aliue but no maruell when hee chargeth some Catholikes at this day in England of his owne Religion to sinne euen now against the holy Ghoste and damneth the same in Hell being yet quicke on the earth c. I giue the Reader but a tast of this Luciferian spirite till wee may come further into the examination of things M. Howlet excuseth this with zeale and the writers opinion in religion a hot too immoderate a zeale destitute of knowledge It may well be called his discoursers opinion in religiō which carrieth w t it neither religion nor conscience Such zeale might haue regarded better and spared the Princes eares and might haue been forborne in our Soueraignes presence What want of duetifull respect soeuer it carry towarde other You take your selfe by the nose while you think to charge vs to bee sectaries for the vntemperate spirite of sectaries resteth in none more than in the hot sect of your puritane Jesuits and such as you are who taking vnto you mens names and orders to be called Religious men by declare your selues to be sectaries in Christes Churche whereas wee for our Religion holde of God Christ and the holy Scriptures which al agree and goe one way We deuide not Christ neither are wee Franciscans Augustines Iacopines no Scotistes Thomistes c. Nor yet Lutheranes Caluinistes c. which names you odiously put vppon vs and wee condemne and refuse the same These be names of sects I leaue the further consideration heereof to the discreete reader and proceede It is to great a bragge made of M. Howlet when in praysing his writers priuate opinion in religion hee saith It hath bene from time to time the common receaued religion of vniuersal Christendome This should haue been prooued or let alone more modestie of speeche euen heere woulde haue better beseemed til trial might haue beene taken thereof but he telleth vs but what seemeth to himself in praysing his fellowe Wee say it is a great vntrueth if he and his discourse bee of one opinion in religion and as easily as it is spoken so easily may it bee reiected though as one of the principles of their Catholique Religion they would haue all men suppose it But wee can suppose no suche grosse absurdities in this cleere light of the Gospell nor admit the same Besides there bee a great many Catholiques as they call them at this day in Christendome that bee not of that opinion in Religion that this discourse setteth vs downe in his lettre and treatise as they that lift to reade may vnderstand yea euen those for whome this treatise was made dissent from the Authours opinion in Religion as hee himselfe confesseth so as this writers zeale and opinion 〈◊〉 hardly be counted The common receiued religion of vniuetsall Christendome There bee also as this man speaketh good Catholiques and bad Catholiques true Catholiques and false Catholiques colde Catholiques and hot Catholiques And if among protestantes M. Howlet can make these termes hot and colde c. to seuer religion as for his vauntage hee doth in the next section of his epistle let his Authours description and confession be iudge of the men and their profession there mentioned called Protestantes and Puritanes which his authour sayth are the hotter sort of protestants then let them giue vs leaue also to say their hot and cold Catholikes c. be of diuers religions and by their own rule let vs call that colder sort or the false and the worser by the common name of Catholikes y e hotter sort of Catholikes let vs cal Puri tanes because they are precise in y e religiō shew thēselues vnspotted seruants and irreprehensible as this discourser spaketh M. Howlet talketh of speaking and writing in defēce of their religiō how māfully it shall be done as long as there is either head or hād remaining loosein the worlde but let thē leaue fire faggot and their blooddy lawes and they shall be written and talked with well ynough I doubte not yea
Puritās will finde grace with you We once make but one religiō of those y t you cal protestāts Puritās meaning yet such stil that yee abuse not your self I say others as ioine godly knowledge with their zeale except we may do y e like with you whot cold Catholikes as ye cal them wee are troubled with so many sorts of you false Catholikes already that wee are lothe to make any more except yee needes will your selues Housholders of loue as better agreeing with your religiō thā with Christs Gospel we cast to your heape as we doe al other false religions which we condēne acknowledge no other than that I haue 〈◊〉 described you Summe The true religiō or the religion of Christ heere professed is but one your religion is not only one but many distinct religions saith euen your Angelical Doctor Talke no more therefore of foure religions in this Realme when but one is auowed heere there bee moe then foure or fiue either diuers religions and distinct in name 〈◊〉 c. not in a Realine but in one Citie Towne with you this is your glorie I trust you wil not charge y t religiō I haue shortly described to be a sect nor the professors therof to be Sectaries I am sure 〈◊〉 ye can not considering that neither it nor they holde of men nor of names by them deuised or by you put vppon them That hath been hitherto proper to you them of your religion If you impugne this Religion Take what name you will yee shal shewe your selues to bee neither true Christians nor good subiects Take heede vnto it it lyeth vppon you And let not that moue you because in the day and cleere light of the Gospel when you M. Howlet are gone Heresies appeare and bee espted that for the most parte were sowen in your tyme before in the night that is in the tyme of Ignorance and darkenesse It is the nature and propertie of the light to disclose and shewe things that otherwise lie hidde It is a blessing of God Againe you knowe where G O D hath a Churche the Deuill will haue a Chappell harde by And tares in the night are sowen in the same field euen among the good seede Heresies also must be euen among you saith the Scripture c. You say Of these foure sorts of men the Catholikes are the first the auncientest the more in number the most beneficiall to al the rest whome you accompt Heretiques Sectaries hauing begottē bred vp the other and deliuered to them this Realme conserued by Catholike religion these thousand yeres and more c. Here haue I to aske you who then be the fathers to all those supposed Sectaries and men of diuers religions that you say are at this day in this Realme Who but you Catholikes y t haue begotten them Whose children be they of whose bringing vp that are accompted to be of so diuers naughty religions whose but yours y t will be Catholikes who haue begotten and bred them vp Howe come these yee accompt Sectaries here and by this Realme howe you Catholikes deliuered it them if al the sortes of men yee recken vp were such Sectaries and naughty men in deede as yee accompt them to be they might wel bee accompted your broode but first syr wee must desire you to take out of your heape those that you cal Protestants and Puritans They wil call no man their father I tell you vpon earth as they be taught by their onely Maister Christe for there is but one father which is in heauen for the rest the more we looke vpon thē the better wee knowe them by the face and confesse them to bee the Ghostly children of you false Catholikes they bee so like you you bee the first yee say and the auncientest But the great Dragon syr that old Serpent called the Deuil and Satan as the holie Ghost speaketh is elder and before you againe You bee the more in number The serpents seede is greatly multiplyed but the womās seede I doubte not shal matche you wel ynough not shee that is the woman herself as your 〈◊〉 translation to commonly corrupt lewdly translateth the wordes and so ouerthrowes the true sense Of the battaile victorie and this whole matter reade the Reuelation of S. Iohn namely the 12. and 13. Chap. c. In Catholikes and Sectaries wee see the Ghostly fathers and their children Goe no higher to Grandsire and great Grandsire stay your wisedome I aduise you for opening your Pedegrue to much Onely as you Catholikes haue begotten bred vp Sectaries so I pray you at this time tell vs of whome ye begate them That is let vs learne who was their mother nurse whose breasts they suckt and vnder whome so vntoward impes were brought vp To saue your honesties and to make all alike father mother children Babylon or Rome in one word I thinke will serue all if not helpe me and teach me better I speake as your Doctours teach mee Howe beneficiall you Catholikes are to Protestantes or Gospellers amongest others your hot burning charitie where they stande to your curtesie sheweth and the bloodie daies here in Christes Martyres c. did sufficientlie expresse The more beneficiall you are to all the rest that are Sectaries the worse yee deserue of this Churche You plaine in another place of lawlesse proceeding and crie out of Riot heere you say you deliuered the Realme to them that 〈◊〉 it They tooke it not then by violence nor against your willes they did you no wrong Howe this Realme hath been conserued by Catholike religion 〈◊〉 thousand yeeres and more that should you haue shewed made plaine your wordes carry an ambiguitie Poperie once and your religion as it is professed and exercised at this day is not wee tell you so olde Againe Christians as wee professe our selues to bee holding of Christe and builte vpon the Prophets and Apostles c. Fetch the antiquitie of their religion not from a thousand yeeres agoe as you pretende to doe but from a very long tune before your 1000. yeeres and so may iustlier then yours hee called the olde religion This Realme hath from time to time been conserued by Gods mercifull and fatherly prouidence and blessing by wise and vertuous Princes and their good and wholesome lawes not by your blinde superstition rather then religion Gods Churche and true Christians sometime moe sometime fewer not in this Realme but throughout the whole worlde haue receiued and conserued Christes religion heere now professed and by mee more shortly described these fifteene hundred yeeres and more that I may goe somewhat aboue your thousande yeeres euen since the Ascension of the Lorde Iesus though after a diuers manner sometime and most commonly shrouded vnder the crosse sometime otherwise according to the dispensation and wisdome of the immortal God It is wisedome safetie for you not to goe
authoritie in causes of the Churche that without checke of our Soueraigne yea with her Maiesties good lyking wee doubte not we heere maintaine and defende the same by the scriptures and ouerthrowe your proude Prelates vsurpation thereby Yee shoulde therefore haue done that heere dealing with her 〈◊〉 at least which you and your Author going by supposition lightly neuer doe to wit haue shewed who this supreme Pastour is and haue proued the Pope to bee hee In the meane whyle as we graunt the supreme chiefe Pastor in Christ his Church supreme and chiefe authoritie in causes of the same so insteede of your Romame Pope wee ascribe that title and office to Jesus Christe alone by the warrant of GOD his ho-spirite and word which call him Archpastor or chiefe and Supreme Pastour and finde not that title imparted in the newe Testament to any in Churche Ministerie much lesse to the Pope of Rome If you nowe finde as good warrant for your Pope in God his booke lay it vs downe and wee wil yeelde But that neither haue you hitherto done neither yet shall yee be able to doe wrangle as long and as much as yee will your best daies are past For the rest wee reporte vs to any indifferent bodie whether it bee more to God his glorie and beseeming God his people the Churche to holde with the Scriptures that Iesus Christe alone the sonne of God is the Arche and chiefe Shepheard or without warrant of Scripture to giue the same to the Pope Nowe Syr and when the Lawes of this Realme giue to the Princes heere their Soueraigntie and require the subiects to acknowledge the same in this Church and Realme and the Kinges and Queenes from time to time challenge and accept the same neither doe the one professe to giue nor the other to take Gods place or Christes from them nor yet so much as to incroch vpō the Church ministerie in taking authoritie to Preache administer Sacraments and execute other Church Ministeries functions yea by meanes of your malicious interpretation the contrary is protested but according to dutie from God to maintaine and see those thinges doone by Pastours and suche as to whome those charges likewise from God do appertaine not admitting therewhilest which is your griefe the immunities that the Popes aforetime haue giuen Cleargie men in exempting them from the ciuil authoritie and iurisdiction What haue faithfull subiects heerein to repine at What haue they to plaine of Yeelde with vs vnto it and yee shall finde wee haue all great cause to praise God for her Maiestie and for ciuill authoritie wee denie then that any forraigne Prince and Potentate Ecclesiasticall or Ciuil if yee will is aboue her Maiestie and her people in these her dominions in any manner of causes or haue to deale here but vnder her by her leaue liking And to God his glory our cōforts haue we still w t all thākfulnes to obserue that her Maiestie doeth not sit in mens consciences nor professe to make lawes to binde the same as your supreme pastour doth but leaueth cōscience to God Christ his spirite and worde to be ruled and framed thereby without further pressing the same then the expresse woordè of God doth in so much that for her Maiesties owne respect in matters 〈◊〉 vnto her soule and conscience she yeeldeth her selfe obediently to heare receyue and obey as euery other christian the voice of God and Christ speaking vnto her in y e holy scriptures by true pastours and other ministers meere Church gouernours leauing to them there seuerall charges whole without diminishing any part therof as reason is Nowe sir if the Pope and Popelings namely her Maiesties natural borne subiects especially by their vnnatural styrres to the danger of her Royall person and the state of the Church and Realme haue caused any lawes to be made that be preiudiciall to their attempts let them thanke themselues and leaue their busie and perillous practises neyther pretend conscience where no good consciēce cā be nor thinke y t the Prince hath to giue ouer her Royal prerogatiues or to altar the state for their pleasure this is the very state of this matter If this can not call you home nor content you we say further that the supreme pastour yee haue made choise of for it is not hard to guesse at your meaning though your wordes be doubtfull is a woolfe or woorse then a wolfe To giue your Pope supreme authority in this Church besides that it is treason against her Maiestie and the state it is to commit the poore lambes to no better then the rauening wolues keeping Howe many good lambes hee and his whelpes deuoured here in a very fewe yeeres when he had last to doe with this sheepefolde the memory and smart is yet freshe and before 〈◊〉 eyes The more haue we to praise God for our dread soueraigne y e in tender care of God his sheepe and lambs and her maiesties shee hath eased our neckes and shoulders of that yoke and hell like bondage Besides this M. Howlet where you giue to the Pope as supreame Pastour supreame authoritie in causes of the Churche yee had neede to explayne this some what playner for your owne religions sake and those of your side as whether the Pope bee aboue the Counsell or the Counsell aboue the Pope Also what ye call Churche causes and whether yee denie his supremacie aboue Emperours Kinges and so foorth in other then Churche causes or yee subiecte him to them Whether as Peter his Successour yee giue him all Peter his Patrimonie and priueleges c. and so because as one Pope sayeth and your Cannon lawe approoueth Christ committed to blessed Peter no where in deede the right both of worldly and heauenly Empire will yee abridge that or no What should I speake of your Reliques yee may say of all as yee doe of one a seely paire of beades seely and single stuffe surely Why make yee such accompt of this seely ware that is but tromperie and trashe cast such baggage from you and there is an ende of all troubles for that Yee talke of the Catholike religion and of your owne religion saying my religion Lieth the Catholike religion and yours in these pointes in deede M. Howlet yee heere name will yee needes lie in perpetuall prison leese goods landes and life for the same After by eareshrift to your Ghostly father yee bee discharged of lawfull and duetifull obedience to our Soueraigne as vice gerent in God his place to whom yee owe obedience for conscience sake as to God him selfe whose roome she possesseth as the substitute and Angel of God thus speake ye some tymes to yeelde the same to a Priest and proude prelate to a forrainer and forerunner to Antichrist if not himselfe rather to the Pope of Rome that hath nothing to doe with Englishe subiectes after this inuerted and peruerted othe and bowe You call it your reconciliation Lieth your religion
his iudgement in that matter ye should haue repaired and sent vs to y e place where at large of purpose he ētreateth thereof which he doth in the twentie or last chapter of the fourth booke of his Institution expressely handlyng there the heauenly authoritie of Magistrates and the duetie of good and obedient subiectes whiche Chapter is written wholly of Politique gouermnent Wherein M. Howlet prooue him if you can to haue written vngodly seditiously or vntruely No as hee writeth very godly and with great authoritie of scriptures and reason so doth he very reuerently and modestly also if any other writer old or new as they say doe so after another manner and sort then eyther you here doe to her Maiestie for all your flattering floures or then your sort haue of late or now doe of Princes and 〈◊〉 els where I woulde wishe the godly and christian reader to bee well acquainted with this M. Caluins writings and I doubt not to affirme to bee true here that was else where saide Let him thinke he hath greatly 〈◊〉 in matters of religion who is brought into a loue and liking of Caluins writings And yet I make neither him my God nor his writings my Byble for all this reuerent thinking and speaking of him and his writings Euen in this matter of Magistrates I praye thee gentle reader looke but into that last Chapter and thou shalt see it shal be hard for thee to read else where 〈◊〉 or profoūder iudgement of a diuine for the excellent dignitie of ciuill Princes and Magistrates or for subiectes and priuate mens obedience to thy satisfaction and contentmēt and to be able with all to confute whateuer M. Howlet or his side can cauill against this seruaunt of GOD or Christes religion here 〈◊〉 I will not nowe stande in diducting this matter but note thus much by the way and nowe come M. Howlet to answere your glenings and pyckings out of his writings In the 10. Chapter of the 4. booke of his Institution he treateth of the authoritie of the Churche in making lawes and of the Popes and popishe Prelates tyrannie ouer mens consciences in that behalfe and namely handling this question whether it be lawfull for the Church by her lawes to binde mens consciences he freely inueigheth against your popish Churches licentiousnes in that behalf without any whit preiudicing politique order onely reseruing mens soules and consciences free to bee spiritually guided by God Christ and his holy woorde in the matters appertayning to the soules health and saluation Nowe M. Howlet if this doctrine mislike you that mens soules and consciences should be aboue the cōpasse of mens authoritie and lawes then condemne our 〈◊〉 Christ the Prophetes and Apostles with M. Caluin who make one spirituall Judge King Lorde and Lawgiuer ouer mens soules that is able to saue and destroy willing vs so to giue to Ceasar those thinges that are Caesars that we giue to God the thinges that are Gods to feare him that hath authoritie to cast into hell and to destroy both soule and body there Whereas men what power soeuer they haue ouer the body afterwarde can doe nothing more nor are not able to kill the soule Againe Yee are bought with a price be not the seruantes of men Stande in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made vs free and be not intangled agayne with the yoke of bondage In the kingdome of God there is neyther Iewe nor Grecian circumcision nor vncircumcision bonde nor free male nor female but ye are all one in Christ he is all in all thinges And yet in place may this distinction bee made and must also be as I noted before Your faulte herein is that yee distinguishe not aright betweene the ciuill and outwarde Courte and the Spirituall Courte of conscience as they speake and Maister Caluin here noteth and else where also howe euer your Fafather and Church haue taken vpon them to deale with mens consctences which is Gods seat to sit and rule there wherein they shewe what they bee yet neither our 〈◊〉 nor other ciuill Princes vsurpe so much ouer Gods right that is proper to Antechrist and your faction Concerning the first Article your corruption and false collection therein are so shamelesse that they may be easily espied I wishe the reader to haue but recourse to the place ye quote to finde out your trecherie or false allegatiō in peruerting the authours woordes and sense to be able to answere the same Excellently well doth M. Caluin in that place defining and treating of conscience reconcile these two pointes togethcr First that mens consciences for their spirituall gouernment are aboue mens reaches reserued only to God which also in time of ignorance as y e said M. Caluin sayth was seene and obserued by your Popish writers though practise were to the contrary as may name ly be seene in your Saint Thomas Next that we must bee subiect to our ciuill Magistrates and that for conscience sake according to the doctrine of the Apostle not so much respecting the thinges commaunded or forbidden by them which of them selues touche not conscience as the generall ende and commandement of the eternall God that hath appointed this order and willed vs by his commandement to be subiect to autoritie And this is it the Apostle tendeth to in his epistle to the Romanes so as leauing your caueling in wordes and syllables if you coulde and woulde distinguishe betwene the ciuill Courte and the court of conscience and betweene generall and particular as M. Caluin speaketh All scrupule auoyded this matter might bee eased and better matter gathered from this godly wryter then you too 〈◊〉 pretende to bee there The booke being both in Englishe and in Latine let the reder iudge of the whole you M. Howlet and your fellowes shall neuer be able to stayne M. Caluin and his doctrine nor cleare your selues from malice c. while you liue if you deale plainely Set vs downe the booke Chapter Section and Caluins wordes for we haue no cause other wise to trust you as you doe your fellowes The second place or article that yee take out of Caluin is so plaine true as I maruell what yee meant to charge him therewith for speaking of Christian libertie hee saith That the consciences of the faithfull are exempted from the power of all men by reason of the libertie giuen thē by Christ so as they are not to be intangled in the snares of constitutions in those things wherein the Lord would haue them free But adde I pray you as hee doth there That as the matter is very worthie and meete to bee knowne so needeth it a large and plaine declaration by reason of the adoe that partly seditious persons partly quarell pickers make as though all obedience of men which is not meant were thereby also taken away and ouerthrowne To preuent this inconuenience doth maister Caluin there a
inestimable ioye and comforte knowe by whose power and prouidence alone her Maiestie was deliuered out of the Lions mouth placed in her Royall seat too well to ascribe y t prayse vnto you hot Catholiks Were you most ready to place her highnes in that royall roome wherein now by the fauour of God she standeth Indeed by the fauour of God y t ye say well trulye more than by your willes and help els were it harde with vs all You were so great helpes at y t beginning y t not being able to kepe in any longer the cankered poysō lurkinge in the heart but opening y t hiddē malice euē in honorable and open meetinge after her Maiestie was placed in her royall Throne when the barbarous crueltie towardes her Maiestie and other vsed in the former dayes was obiected one amongst other answered in y e name of y e rest that there was no other fault but that leauing the roote standing the brāches only were hakt of whē rather the mightiest tares so it pleased a champiō of yours to speake of y e professiō some professors of the Gospell should haue bene puld vp by the rootes which if it had bene done we shoulde not now see so many and so great wicked stockes saide this stout Catholique remaine euery where and flourishe This was it that happelye greeued you that by your wicked and trayterous dealinge her Maiestie was not before that time made away But if her Maiestie we all were so beholding vnto you for this seruice why dyd not you and your felowes make this sute when the matter was fresh in memorie the thing was not then ripe haue you now firste gotten hart of grace It is but of late M. Howlet that most of you haue puld your neckes out of the coller of obedience to God and her maiestie and therefore the recompence of that seruice that yee brag of if there were any such longeth litle to you young men Iesuites and other late Byrdes of Rome that which foloweth perhaps you wyll saye doth for ye recken not vp onely what yee haue done whiche in truthe yee neuer dyd but what proper men yee presentlye bee and wyll bee to spende the vttermost drop of your blood to defend her Maiestie in all safetie peace quietnesse to the ende yf it lyke her Highnesse to beleeue pour tale or truste to the broken reede of your defence Your dealinges heretofore in both her Maiesties Realmes of Englande and Irelande to leaue olde practises and to remember but her dayes confirme this promise of yours The stirres ye nowe afreshe goe about to make continuing the old rebellions till ye may ioyne them to new vtter your good meaning hearts remember whēce you come frō whome and in whose name This seruice to her Maiestie and the State had neede bee recompenced it were pitie els I thinke certainely your affections at the beginning towardes her Maiestie were euen such as yee nowe shewe them and will hereafter to the ende approoue them while her Maiestie liueth Can the blacke Moore change his skinne or hue or the Leoparde his spottes Then may yee also doe good that are accustomed to euill Your great fathers stomackes in the beginning were to high to become Petitioners popishe Prelates coulde not or woulde not submitte them selues to her highnes One White in his rochet after Queene Maries death at Paules crosse speaking of alteration of religion from Poperie to the Gospell c. openly sayde It can not be it may not bee it shall not bee yee holde one course yee are I perceiue no changelings But there is sir an oddes between doing a thing in deed and pretending to doe a thing betweene doing of conscience affection duetie loue heartily and betweene rhetorically doing that I may so speake that is Italian and Romanlike with colour and great cunuing or if you will 〈◊〉 of our Englishe mens doing now that come thence if her Maiestie therefore spie your drift and rewarde you with fourtie stripes as the frenche king once did in not much an vnlike case a dissembler for pretending in hope of rewarde with termes and 〈◊〉 of great reuerence to take a 〈◊〉 from him after another 〈◊〉 of his had receiued rewarde for a very like seruice and office done to the king his M. before Are yee not well ynough serued Or at least if her Maiestie comparing you with other consider her faithfull subiectes in deede which aske nothing nor brage of their seruice but acknowledge they haue receiued more then they haue deserued and desire nothing more then that they may in all thankefull dutie answere their Soueraignes bountie towardes them as the Chauncellour to the said French king somtime did stāding amongst such gaping and rauening Crowes Cormorantes or Owles call thē what ye will As you in words set out your 〈◊〉 byrdes here to bee if I say she shall in the end reward those good Subiectes as King Lewes did his Chauncellour and send you emptie away that gape so fast afterward answer you that you must waite for an other occasiō as y t King did c. What haue you to plain of It is said that y t king toke a delight to mocke the gaping byrde were it Crow or Daw. Is this your waightie motiue ye so glose in the margin of your booke If your Authour haue no better in store to come hereafter as in this your treatise promised shall come both he you may put vp your pypes for ought I see But yee runne backe to your starting hole and alleadge conscience this is a poore helpe And yet this must bee a satisfaction for all if the rest faile howe hollowe soeuer your consciences bee if there remaine any at all the bare name of cōscience must be your defence whē you haue nothing els to say Heere make yee now a Rampeere Conscience you say dependeth of iudgement and vnderstanding not of affect and will It cannot be framed at pleasure nor consequently reduced to such conformitie as is prescribed by Superiours Conscience no doubt where it is in deede and not in fancie and wordes pretended onely is a great matter and woulde by any meanes be respected and tendred of all And so doth her Maiestie heere God be praised why did yee not heere M. Howlet set downe the groūd of your vnderstāding iudgement or forbeare this brag of cōscience till we had seene examined the groūd thereof y t which w tout all proofe ye here bring forth in wordes only that do we returne vnto you againe as a thing vnproued therfore reproueable to wit y t the persuasiō you are entred into of not comming to the Churche among vs at this day and refusing the oth of alleageance to her Maiestie is not onely not grounded on the scriptures but is contrary thervnto and thereupon dependeth altogether of affect and will not of iudgement and vnderstanding is framed at
ryot and complaine of the wrong and desire still that the matter may come to lawfull pleading And euen nowe os late since our new persecution beganne wee haue made vnto them diuers offers with great oddes not pretending thereby any recouery of our losses for that wee suppose to bee vnpossible but onely for the iustifiyng of our cause whereupon the honour of God dependeth and wherein wee knowe wee can not bee vanquished THus you amplifie iolilie w t similitude example your long possession as ye say of the Catholicke Church here in England our ryot also and violent intrusion vniust as you pretende which you call Law lesse proceeding You will by processe seeme to call vs afresh into the kings Bench when wee appeare your action will beare no lawefull plea against vs you accuse vs hotly M. Howlet but as good an Attorney or proctor and solicitor or man of lawe and counsellor as you are taken to bee in the Popes cause you shewe and proue nothing against vs in Gods or the Princes court we thanke God Ye suppose altogether for you say by our aduersaries confession that is for one part But wee say you say as yee are wont that is vntruly for your Church and religion as they bee at this day are not of a thousande yeeres antiquitie Some part of your corruptions may be so old we denie it not some part againe are of later time And heresies we tell you out of Tertullian doth not Newnesse so much argue as Truth whatsoeuer sauoureth against the truth that shall bee heresie euen olde Custome saith hee Againe your Iesuites a newe order of Religion instituted about fortie yeeres agoe or such such a thing seeme amōg vs at this day to be your greatest pillers and staies in this your new and strange proceeding and wee here can scarcely yet well tell what their religion is nor where it is grounded so lately though suddēly come they among vs but vpon an obscure fellowe your Pope Paul the thirde you tel vs is their foundation And in deed your Popish religion is such a confused Chaos and heape or a hotche potche that wee can not tell certainly what to make of it nor where to fetche a proper and full summe of the Popishe doctrine at this day and a confession of your fayth For leauing the Scriptures to bee the rule of your fayth and coyning vs still so many newe Articles vnder the name of vnwritten verities traditions the Churche c. Which the first and auncient Apostolique Church was ignoraunt of and referring vs for all to your Popes brest To bee playne we can finde no footing You take a similitude from a wise noble man and quiet possession of his Baronie many ages Bee as wise as yee may bee yet a similitude and example of a meaner and a more base and vile person than a Noble man of a Barne M. Howlet rather than a Baronie might fitlier serue to compare so corrupt a Church and rotten religion withall as is Poperie and the Popish Church But wee muste take suche as you offer vs. Your Prelates of the Cleargie that rule the Church are Lordes euen ouer Gods heritage they are Barons they must needes haue a Baronie No maruell therefore though in respect of thē and their vsing of the Churche yee liken it to a Baronie of a Noble man that hath many ages helde the same in quiet possession Or if you speake of the whole Catholike Churche in respect of the vnholy holinesse of the Pope of Romes fatherhood the matter is brought to a higher degree then a Noble man he is called our Lord God the Pope For quiet possession in deede I graunt yee helde that yee had in possession very quietly made as sure as you coulde not to bee vnquieted in your Palaces But a stronger thanks be to god came vpon you your god Prince to I meane the Pope Satan ouercame you took away your armour wherein you trusted c. For the vnfitnesse of your similitude I tell you first that if you liken your selues to a Noble man you must then liken the true Church to anothers and not to the Noble mans owne Baronie for that wee holde agreeable to the Scriptures that the Churche so likened can bee called no mans but Gods or Christs Baronie onely In title of lande Sir c. where prescription of time beareth great sway many ages of quiet possession be a great stay to Noble mens Baronies or others holdes especially where euidence and writinges by sundrie casualities may bee missing In religion that I may giue a further taste of your vnlikelie likelyhood and vnproper example the case is nothing like For authoritie of religion is not to bee esteemed by time saith one That which is true is not too late And y t good father again saith y e heathē say That that is first cannot be false As though antiquitie old custome may preiudice the truth But M. Howlet in going no higher for the age of your religion thē a 1000. yeeres and talking to vs of quiet possessiō of many ages since that time wee answere you first that our religion was aboue 500. yeere olde before yours came into the worlde or your Pope were hatcht supposing you kept quiet possession as you pretende nowe a 1000. yeeres For wee fetche ours from Christe and his Apostles who had lawfull possession of the Baronie yee talke of aboue halfe a 1000. yeeres before you came to possession thereof And if you will marke well those halfe thousande yeres before were the beter and more free from forgerie and corruption and therefore woulde bee more regarded But nowe I pray you tell vs how you entred into possessiō of y e Catholike Churche a thousande yeeres agoe For by inheritance once we denie that it came vnto you or by discent If there may be any lawfull conueighance thought of the best 〈◊〉 I see yee can with any probabilitie alleadge for the possession that your Cleargie euer had of this Baronie meaning thereby the true Church of Christe was that they helde the same but as Tenaunts and that tenants at will too standing vpon their good behauiour to continue or to bee cast out The Noble man himselfe the only Lorde and Baron that I may so speake of this Baronie is aliue his Baronie only may the true Church bee called If you meane that in this similitude neither yours nor any mortall mans besides Howeuer therefore you haue holden the Catholike Churche that way you haue beene but too long vniust possessors and so lost you nothing that was your owne when vppon misbehauiour you were by Gods lawfull Minister our dreead Soueraigne therein thrust out of possession of this true Church here as you were once before within mans remembrance about xl yeeres since So then this Baronie the Church heere is now the second time to Gods glory and our inestimable benefite lawefully taken from you
restored y t publike exercise of religion here liueth God be thanked and long may shee liue None of you haue seene any suche in clination to Alteration in her Maiesties constant setled minde as you in fancte imagine besides this her Maiesties 〈◊〉 most milde and quiet gouernment in the time of y e Gospel to all our great comfortes doth not procure nor deserue any such thing at her faythfull subiectes hands nay besides dutie this dealing purchaseth the contrary and keepeth the subiectes in merueylous contentment commonly and liking where as the intollerable yoke and insupportable burden that you put vppon this lande more then haled wertsomnesse and desire of alteration in the time of superstition When you talke of your newe persecution if you meane thereby the committing of such to warde as of late came from the Pope Rome for their seditious attempts heere in Englande or the repressing of the violent rebellion against her Maiestte and the State in Ireland we answere y t ye might better haue sit stil like good Christians true hearted Englishmen and subiectes or haue chosen an honester course then by rebellion treason so to haue troubled the peaceable state of 〈◊〉 Church and Realme prouoking and enforcing her Maiestie who beareth not the swoorde for naught to drawe out the same to crosse and stay your violent disorders You offer to enter by sedirion her Maiesties dominions violently You offer to poyson and corrupt the mindes of the good and simple subiectes This and such offers of yours wee are too well acquainted withall other your offers and oddes wee commonly know no more of then you reporte vnto vs you pretende not by your offers any recouerie of lofses c. If they bee any who put you to them but your selues that will needes runne into them headlong You tell what you pretended not I woulde you had in time as well tolde what your pretence and meaning was that it might haue beene with lesse adoe preuented you haue long hoped after a day ye thought it had beene nowe come But as God would you hope without your hope your end is to iustifie your cause Whervpō the honor of god depēdeth If Gods honour depēded on the iustifiyng of your cause it should hang but vpon a weake twined threed but he hath not put it into your hands sirs it is better grounded and staied than so There is no profession at this day in Christendome wherein God is more dishonoured thē in yours Ye tell vs ye knowe yee can not bee vanquished yee tell vs also of our weakenes a 〈◊〉 shewing greater pride thē modest wisedome You knowe more of your selues then all the worlde doth besides yee are deepely seene in your owne cause Either you neuer felte or neuer well considered the forces of your aduersaries at least you are blinde and therby cannot well iudge of them As God be thanked you gaine little nowe a dayes where vpon vsurpation you violently inuade lawfull princes countries with sworde vpon confidence of the Popes authoritie that way God so mightily defending and maintaining his seruantes ministers Princes and ciuile Magistrates and looking with a watchfull eye to his Institution and ordinance So gaine you as little or lesse the other way because you stay altogether vpon Sand vpon fleshe worldely pollicie man c. And the weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mightie Yet through God to cast down holds c Ours is the sword of the spirit which is the word of God liuely and mighty in operation and sharper than any two edged sword 〈◊〉 through euen to the diuiding asunder of the soule and the spirite and of the ioyntes and the marrowe and is a descerner of the thoughts the entents of the heart c. Your Fortes are not imprennable nay they fall of thēselues and moulder away They are weake They are rotten your walles be but of Broune paper The best and surest fort in this that ye call your newe persecution was in Ireland wherin after rebelliō there stirred vp by you ye much trusted That God be thanked through his blessing was by her Maiesties prouident care forces soone destroyed c. If the secular arme and forces faile you if fire and fagot be taken out of your hands or your cōsuming flames quenched yee can long holde in no place God haue the glory for both taking those weapōs from you and so gloriously by his heauenly Gospell triumphing ouer you in these latter daies among other princes let her maiesty our dread soueraigne haue her singular and due commendation in this work as Gods speciall minister to al true englishmens vnspeakeable comforte we haue had good triall of you by experience and that maketh you to bring the authoritie of Kinges and other vnder the pope to be at his deuotion but all in vaine for ye resist against God and his eternal truth you should doe well not to boaste nor triumph before the victorie you know how the king of Israel answered y e proud threat of Benhadad y e king sometime of the Syrians Let not him saith he that girdeth his harnes boast himselfe as he that putteth it off 14 AND to tell your Maiestie more in particular there hath beene diuers earnest meanes made and most humble petitions exhibited by the Catholikes that seeing those men which first challenged at Poules Crosse al the learned of our side that might be found eyther to writing or disputing afterwarde procured your Maiesties prohibition by proclae mation that no bookes should be written or read of that parte in England their petition was I saye that at the least there might some publique disputation be admitted whereby 〈◊〉 doubtes might be resolued This petition hath beene exhibited by dyuers men in the name of the whole both in writing and in print they haue beene vrged by sundry meanes by al kinde of friendship that we could make by humble request by earnest letters to diuers preachers to further the matter if I bee not deceiued to my Lord of London himselfe for the bringing of the matter to your Maiesties vnderstanding and to the consideration of the Lordes of your highnes priuie coūsayle And if by any mischaunce these former supplications came not to light or expressed not fully the Catholikes plain simple meaning es I beseech your most gratious Maiestie that this may serue eyther for a replication or explanation of the same wherein I in their names most humblye on my knees euen for Gods cause and the loue of his truth aske at your Maiesties handes that some such indifferent tryal may be had by publike disputation or otherwise YOU tel further of meanes made of challenges petitiōs writing disputing prohibitiō I wot not what neyther truly nor to purpose greatly writing vpon the occasion of chalenge at Paules Crosse that ye mencion hath since geuen your side such a woūd as I think you wil neuer be able
Oracle according to Christs answere so you beeleeue geuen Fryer Thomas by the mouth of the Image of the crucifixe Thou hast written well of me Thomas Furdermore if one woulde enter into more particular examination of that you say it were not harde to improoue this your subtile exposition and by as good ground to ascribe to the father authority to the sonn natiuitie or with the scripture power grace which you appropriate to the father and the holy Ghost And to the holy Ghost communitie of the father the son vnitie societie charitie or else power which you ascribe here to the father as it may be to both the father and the holy Ghost c. This were not hard for him to do y t were disposed to dally w t the Scriptures and truth of God as you do drawing y t same into diuers vncertain expositiōs too irreligeously Gregory hath not one word of sin against the holy Ghost in place ye quote I graunt you he speaketh of insirmitie ignorance and purpose but euery sinne done aduisedly or of purpose is not sinne against the holy Ghost I pray you sir if these your catholikes did commit a sinne and that a greeuous sinne in haunting Protestants churches which I trust they doe with better and more religious minds than you iudge or hereafter at least will Iudge nothing beefore the time vntill the Lorde come c. and so sinne not at all But serue God faythfully But I say put the case there be some such naughtie men then God amende them But why I pray you may they not be iudged to do y t they do of humane frailtie as did Peter seeing you say they doe it for feare fauour or some worldly cause This is but hard freedome harde election and hardly to be called meere will and malice if al these termes be admitted to define sinne against the holy Ghost Augustines modestie noted by Thomas would haue beseemed you This is a deepe question let the light of exposition thereof be sought for of the Lorde I tel you beloued there is not possible a greater nor a harder questiō in al the holy Scriptures Thus far Augustine Whose description both Petrus Lombardus and Thomas auowe and like better then I doe youres There seeme ywis moe thinges required in the description of it than you heere expresse In your heat you shake vp these your catholikes God make them wise and you shall gaine little eyther by them or by that kinde of handling It is better going to the Popes hell or by his pretended sending thither than by his that is able to destroy both body and soule in hell fire Wherefore let vs feare him that is the eternall God which alone hath power to saue and to destroy I speake not all this while to defend any man in doing against conscience any thing or if these men haue so shaken off al reniorce of conscience that they are lulled a sleepe in securitie I with them to awake to learne a better religion which is ioyned with conscience I answere the aduersaries vniust charge and threat and hope the best of such as communicate with Christes church and religion here professed or shewe them whereto they haue at least to trust I woulde haue none flatter themselues in euill which these men cariyng such a conscience as he here speaketh of or suche a minde and not altering the same doe and are in a dangerous case for nourishing such a serpent in their bosome as is poperie and yet dissemble with all the worlde in pretending to be of another religion The mans talke here hauing been possible abrode a shriuing of many or taken it frō them that haue so done and so knowing their consciences better then we that liue among them and are dayly conuersant with them for that we sift not their consciences may make one doubte there bee manye hollowe harted Catholikes among vs or worldlinges rather and Atheistes for in deed such are vtterly without God haue no cōscience at al. I wishe them therefore to looke about thē men may be damned many a one is damned for other sins thē the sin against the holy Ghost how euer they sinne that greeuously I dare not say they sinne against the holy Ghost for al this or may not ' be good mē in time to cōe Thus make I mine argumēt against y e aduersarie Nothing supposed to be done of feare fauour or other passiō can be iustly called sin against the holy Ghost The Catholikes cōmunicating w t our churches is a thing supposed to be done of feare fauour or other passion euen by this man and other of that syde Therefore the Catholikes communicating with our Churches can not bee iustly called sinne against the holy Ghost Thus far of those that you accompt the worst and to to badde Catholikes I pray God we may find them good Christians And yet if they haue learned any euill they haue learned it of your religion and in your schoole I haue beene herein the longer bicause the whole booke seemeth to be written against this kinde of men God open their eyes they may see knowe and discerne their friendes from their foes bee carefull and watchfull amending at least in time to come that which is amisse The third sort of catholikes or the seconde as you tearm them quite leauing out such as your selfe are agree but in one of the three points I spake of before dissent in two they iudge all religions beside theyr owne say you false erronious damnable this haue they cōmon with other Romane catholikes but they thinke it lawfull for some worldly respect as for sauing their offices dignities liberties credits or the like to shewe themselues conformable men in going to church and other church proceedinges here c. thinking also other too scrupulous that stand in refusal of y e same This make you y e proper difference of these from other catholikes Nowe as they agree with the rest in the first point so in going to church taking othe communicating c. they disagree from hot Catholikes and agree therein with those I haue at large discoursed of euen now te The more I perceiue they acquaint them selues with the Gospell of Christ here professed and receiued the more dutifull they shewe them selues to her Matestie the worse bee they liked of you but the matter is not great Albeit these agree no better with you hot Catholikes but dissent in mo pointes then the other that went afore yet ye thought it pollicie belike hauing so scourged and taken vp those somewhat here to spare these men least you should do your religion too much hurt if you should fal too farre out with all besides your selues In places elsewhere you take them vp very sharply thogh but here thinking good to forbe are least you should want another mayne branche of your tree yee haue thought good to make
I content me with this sūmall and short declaration thereof When marriages are to be made and celebrated children to be baptized c where and how shall this and the like be honestly and orderly perfourmed and doone if wee refuse church assemblies here It were not hard to runne ouer all this authours nine reasons to turne thē all on the aduersaries owne head As to giue example for infection and the danger thereof which they cannot be free from that abstaine from comming to Church here lying open to the enimie of our saluation and so not in danger to be infected only but by the Diuels infection and poyson vtterly consumed and destroyed also for explanation and tryall whēreof marke the nature power and propertie of the Diuell with whome wee poore wretches haue to deale Marke on the other side the nature of preaching the Gospel namely marke that our Sauiour Christe speaking to Ierusalem expresseth it to bee How often would I haue gathered thy childrē together as the henne doeth her chicken vnder her wings and yee woulde not and consider what danger of the Puttock and Kyte the little chickin bee in not being vnder the Hennes winges vpon this clucking and calling Againe marke what danger the sheepe be in of the theefe and of the woolfe if either they runne astray out of the folde or bee not dayly fedde and lookt vnto by the vigilaunt Pastour and Minister of Gods holy worde c. And it will not be harde to finde out how necessarie it is for vs dayly and often to come to the Church to heare the preaching of the gospel to receiue the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper c. And how hurtfull the abstaining therefrom is vnto vs. Ywts if Poperie and Popith religion if ignorant sir Johns had but halfe as much to alleadge out of Gods boke the holy scriptures yea but a cloke and coulor for their mumpsimus 〈◊〉 seruice and abhominable masse and for their blasphemous sacrificing priesthood as we haue for our holy assemblies the preaching ministerie of the Gospell by faythfull Pastors in the Church at this day they would brag mightily and triumph But thankes be vnto God they haue not somuch as one cleere syllable ne yet hardly any pretence We beare what our Sauiour Christ saith blessed are they that heare the word of god keep it c Tel vs you if you can what he saith for hearing masse and Popish seruice The other Reasons of offence of note to distinguish and know our religion by of schisme participation c might bee dealt in and the like sayd thereof as in the first of perill of infectiō But heere I leaue y t to the Christian Readers consideration especially seeing this argument is at large entreated of by diuerse godly learned in their writings I pray God all we his people her Maiesties subiectes referring things to the right ende may better then hitherto vse to our saluation these comfortable meanes of Church assemblies that we may reape plentifull profit by hearing the worde preached c. and not sticke in outwarde ceremonies or doing of thinges for a fashion which is but too common in the worlde and the redresse hardly compassed howbeit let vs not flatter our selues God hath dealt mercifully with vs and her maiestie hath not onely cleered her selfe herein towards vs but greatly deserued at our handes also so as al the fault is and resteth in our selues alone and the matter will be but badly answered before God another day if we looke not to it in time I am not ignorant that the enemie wil cauil herevpon but meerely cauill indeede as is easie to bee seene in the rest without all good ground So as he can hardely deceiue any but such as offer themselues willingly to be deceiued But I respect as I sayd others besides the enemie If there be any found in this Church and reformation some defect As what church is pure from all spottes liuing in this world vpon the earth yet the preaching of the Gospel and the administration of Christes Sacraments concerning the substance being kept hole and the desire and meaning not being to nourishe and maintaine any vngodlines abuse c contrary to the Scriptures but according to thmeasure of faith and knowledge geuen of God as oportunitie may serue to reforme and redresse the same There is no cause or reason why we should leaue the communion with the church or leese the benefites offered vnto vs in the same by the preaching of the Gospell and the administration of the Sacraments without neuerthelesse allowing in this our ioyning with the Church any abuses or deuises of men or their additions which through ignorance and imperfection that yet remaine euen in Gods churche too easily crepe in One of these extremities will the diuell our common enemie assay to bring vs vnto if he can And we haue great cause and neede to looke about vs and to take heede of his slightes on both sides And herein not to dissentble or to flatter with those of authoritie and publike charge as is her maiestie and those of the state here But to begin with them with al reuerence and dutifull consideration and their good accepcation I doubt not I am bolde vnder correction to say that for the training vp of vs their people in Gods true religion it is their partes in matters of Gods Kingdome and Christian Religion to looke narrowly and well to their proceeding and doing to trye and examine the same by the touch of Gods holy word as well on the parte of the churche Ministers and ministerie as the rest of Church gouernment that all to Gods glory may answer the paterne set downe in his written worde They pray I ani sure as wel as we dayly at our heauenly maisters commandements Hallowed beethy name Thy kingdome come Thy will bee done in earth as it is in heauen They haue not therfore to content themselues if the matter be wel marked with a beginning or halfe a reformation of that is amisse such as may please man but godly wisely and zealously to aduance by the worde of God and continually to set forwarde the worke begunne and not to leaue be weery geue ouer or rest in y t they haue once aduised or thought of till the whole by their Godly care and trauaile bee so purged and fined with the fire of Gods worde as is vnto his heauenly will correspondent and most agreeable At least if they cānot or do not y t same at the first at once they haue more and more daylie to contend to bring their woorke to that passe which thing is with great affection and hope longed and looked for at their hands and not only wished and desired but earnestly hartely prayed for also by al the godly Rome they are wont to say was not built in a day but howe much more iustly may y t be verified in y t spirituall building vp of G O D his
house citie and kingdome among men But this when it shal please God wil be as vnto vs al most comfortable so vnto our superiours very glorious and honourable to the procurement and continuance of Gods fauour and liberall blessings long among vs. I enter not into particulars because I am not to prescribe nor yet to distrust the Godlines wisedome and care of so religious a Prince and state as God hath giuen vs. For the rest therfore as in this imperfection and weakenes of mankind and the hardnes of the worke these cogitations these meditations these endeuours are in this case worthy and very necessary and meete for Christian Princes states and publique persons in Church and common welth often and much to bee occupied in euery one according to their place and calling so prouiding that they and their people Gods Churche bee not abused with mens inuentions and dreames in steede of Gods pure and holye worde So againe subiectes and priuate persons where this matter is attempted and taken in hand with vantage and to Gods glory with paine care laboured in dayly haue not onely with all thankefulnes and reuerent dutifulnes to acknowledge and accept this great blessing and goodnes of God in and by our Prince state with helpe of hartye prayer for successe to the delight and encouragement of Christian Magistrates and Superiours But further also if in thus proceeding all thinges euery way answer not the godly mindes and expectation of the faythfull to the full We haue first to lay the fault and hinderance where it is charging generally our selues and our owne 〈◊〉 therewith as the proper cause of all and farther euery one of vs particularly examining our selues haue to ioyne our seuer all sinnes with the sinnes of our peo ple and hartely as in publike so a parte to lament and be waile the matter in humble and plaine confession to God and in testifiyng to men as occasion is offered or dislike with that is amisse earnestly purposing and endeuouring to redresse that is amisse in our selues and to help the same in other as we maye keeping in all things the boundes and compasse of our calling Nexte beeing thus in all godlinesse and modestie affected haue wee to consider there whilest according to our bounden dutie wherein and howe farre wee maye and oughte to ioyne our selues in communion and fellowshippe with the Christian and holye Churche or Congregation wherein we liue in all Christian humilitie patience meekenesse bearing and forbearing without breaking the vnitie thereof so farre as is possible Christian and holy I call this Church in respect of that honour that God hath called it vnto and the good benefite of his holy worde Sacraments c. Wherewith hee hath vouchsafed to blesse the same not doubting in the meane while of good successe increase and dayly edification from God by these meanes so farre as he seeth expedient according to his promise though in the meane while there may be founde among vs but too many defects not in life and conuersation onely but in church policie and orders likewise which defectes like spots blemishes and staynes of the face we may behold not nowe adayes first but in these and some greater matters also euen in the Apostles times and afterwards in the olde and former Churches by themselues planted though in this behalf they be to be accounted sicke and imperfect which retaine yet still in Scripture the title and honour of Churches and of the church of God As for example The churches of the countrie of Asia in the Reuelation of Saint Iohn the churches of the Countrie of Galatia and of the Citie of Corinth and such like I speake not as though Churches shoulde or might please themselues in their follies or to flatter any I haue saide my minde thereof I tell here only what Christians particular dutie is for bearing in this behalfe where thinges be not too too intollerable especially this haue we well to consider of when we be not required by the Church authoritie to approue or imbrace in God his matters and religion any thing but that which is warranted by God his holy worde and we commended thereby in framing our consciences and liues according to that rule in all dutifulnesse towards God our Prince and other our neighbours And the Church they of authoritie likewise be content to heare and to be admonished of such defects and faultes wherein they may bee thought not to haue rightly applied nor iustly followed the rule of all reformation the worde of God so the same be Christianly doone and modestly as I haue said and we stil liue in good hope of redresse of that is a misse as the same may once be founde out perceiued and knowne by those to whome publike reformation thereof doth orderly appertaine which be the very same whom God hath placed in publike authoritie and calling Hereby is it not hard to be seene that I shut out of this account that Apostaticall vnholy Synagogue of Rome by the titles before mentioned as wherewith wee cannot ioyne our selues without renounsing the vnitie we haue with Christe and his holy vniuersall churche And againe we must thinke that they that excommunicate shut out and cut of from all Spirituall communion and societie with them outward and inwarde leauing them without all hope of reconciliation either in this worlde or in the worlde to come suche I say as are of one religion of one and the same profession with them that as they haue doone and doe so will no easiliar handle vs hence foorth seeke we peace as muche as we will and in vs lyeth The summe therefore of that we haue to rest vpon is that walking in God his feare in obedience and charitie towardes all men which is the effect of a Christian life we so edifie our selues and other with whom we liue in all godlinesse and honestie that in Godly zeale 〈◊〉 with wisedome and humblenesse of minde we take heed there whilest least declining or turning to much on one hande without neede we seperate our selues from the societie of them that approue and shewe them selues to be God his people vpon a dislike of some thinges amisse that lie not in our power or hands to redresse that bee priuate men if the same bee not intollerable to be borne with As they be when they plucke vp the very foundations of doctrine and the rootes of Christian Religion which doyng may be imputed to too much curiositie selfe loue and wilfulnesse c. Wee haue to take heede on the other hande for all this least by ioyning our selues vnto thē we receiue approue or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 things confusedly euē abuses y t do or may creep in hand ouer head as they say w tout any distinction or differēce w t may argue wāt of knowledge zeale true godlines When I would expresse full my meaning herein I can vtter it in no better or fitter wordes then
the holy Ghost his set vs downe by that chosen vessell the blessed Apostle who prayeth Christians to walke worthy their calling whereunto they are called with all humblenes of minde meeknes with long suffering supporting one another in loue endeuouring to keepe the vnitie of the Spirite in the bonde of peace There is one bodie and one spirit c. looke the place To discerne and distinguishe therefore thinges aright here needeth the Spirite of the Lorde the spirite of wisedome vnderstanding the spirite of counsaile and strength the spirite of knowledge and of the feare of the Lorde that may make vs prudent in the feare of the Lord c. whereof the Prophet sayth It shoulde rest vpon Christ who receyued the fame for the behoofe of his Churche and vs to be guided by Wee haue receiued sayth Saint Paule not the spirite of the worlde but the spirite which is of God that we may know the things which are giuē vs of God And the Anoynting which yee receiued of him dwelleth in you saith Saint Iohn and Yee neede not that any man teach you but as the same anoynting teacheth you of all things it is true and is not lying and as it taught you yee shall abide in him Agayne our Sauiour Christ It is written in the Prophetes And they shal be all taught of God A good and sure Schoolemaister is this Spirit of truth to lead vs into all trueth to bring into our remembrance whatsoeuer Christ hath tolde vs and to redresse and direct our wayes according to God his holy woorde which is the truth God only vouchsafe to 〈◊〉 our eares and to touche our heartes continually to heare beleeue and obey this truth Thus much in respect of some certaine for their better satisfiyng if it may be This matter beside the scriptures which may and ought to suffise hath 〈◊〉 and is diducted at large by some writers both olde and new as they are called where the same for them that list may be seen namely Augustine in his writings aforetime against the Donatists and such like wadeth herein very godly and wisely in my opinion and such godly men in our time also as write against Anabaptistes and y e like that are infected herein that I neede not to adde there vnto And besides I doe but here touch the same by the way as a caueat to preuent or cut of cauill and quarrelling if it may be hauing rather to occupie meselfe in answering the 〈◊〉 sarie at this time as one that what reason or answere soeuer other may be thought to haue and to make he surely his fellow Romanists haue very litle or none as who may be thought to haue beene in the orders of this Churche sufficiently if not too muche respected and borne with nowe aboue these twentie yeeres whiche may serue with all the worlde to our 〈◊〉 and the States 〈◊〉 here towardes these men And that a through and full reformation of the Church need not be forborne in respect of them I woulde this great and necessarie matter might as easily be obtayned which our sinnes onely let as it is not harde to answere what euer those fellowes can nowe alleadge for them selues Unto the examination therefore of this mans particular Reasons for refusall of comming to Church I nowe turne my selfe THE first Reason why I being a Catholike in minde may not goe to the Churches or seruice of the contrary Religion is because I perswading my selfe their doctrine to be false doctrine and consequently venemous vnto the hearer I may not venture my soule to bee infected with the same So that the firste proposition or grounde of this first reason to make it in forme of argument is this No man that perswadeth himselfe the doctrine nowe professed and taught in the Church of Englande is false and venemous to the hearer may venture his soule to be infected therewith But euery Romane Catholike is a man that perswadeth him selfe the doctrine nowe professed and taught in the Church of England is false doctrine and venemous to the hearer Therefore no Romane Catholike may venture his soule to be infected therewith First Sir such Catholikes as are of contrary opinion vnto you herein for whose sake you wrote this discourse must you suppose will denie one of your two propositions finde shifts to auoyde all your proofes which will not bee harde to bee done for those of your religion But let them shift with you as they and you can agree I am no patrone of theirs I will speake and answere to the matter Therefore to this first Argument or Reason I answere that it is vayne and naught because it is grounded vpon opinion fancie and ones perswading of him selfe and doing after his perswasion and not vpon the matter and truth Nowe these two matters be diuers and doe differ much I perswade my selfe that such a thing is thus or so And such a thing in deed is thus or so The reason why because one may be and to often is deceiued in perswading himself of things otherwise then they be But the truth is alwaies one and 〈◊〉 not according to our perswasion neither 〈◊〉 thereon What if one perswade himselfe y t he is a Prince or haue a bag of money is he so or hath he it euer the more or euer the sooner for that neuer a whit sure Or if one perswade himself there is a snake in his bed shall he not sleepe neere it or if your fellow perswade himself you go about to deceiue him shall hee not trust you Surely our doing or not doing of thinges euen appertayning to this lyfe to haue the same well done must not depende vpon our own perswasion which is very changeable and vncertayne but our perswasion to doe any thing must depende rather vpon the trueth and goodnesse of the matter that wee minde to doe Otherwise one perswading him selfe that euery man hee shall meete will kil him may not venture to goe abroad about his 〈◊〉 nor come in the companie of any man perswading himselfe that what euer hee eate or drinke poysoneth him hee may not venture to eate nor drinke for being 〈◊〉 And so within a while die like a foole and be guiltie of his owne death because hee will not lay away his owne 〈◊〉 perswasion In religion and matters of 〈◊〉 is this argument much more 〈◊〉 vaine as y t which hath 〈◊〉 and doeth from Gods truth and is the mother and nurse of all superstition and 〈◊〉 So as if this disputer or reasoner will needes grounde this argument or reason vpon his perswasion yet must he giue seaue to 〈◊〉 the grounde of his perswasion whether it bee good or bad true or false And not say as he doth elsewhére that he will not dispute thereof but howe euer that bee the perswasion may not be done against be it true be it false First rather let him prooue the goodnes truth therof
reasoning in proouing matters wee had rather heare of good strong and sounde proofes by Syllogismes than by weake 〈◊〉 but let that also passe Let vs take such 〈◊〉 all argumentes as are offered vs. Prooue your similitude what it wil and as well as it can it prooueth not that you bring it in for Note your similitude your selfe and make the conclusion and you shall fee you prooue not that you propounded but reason from one thing to another or propound one thing and conclude another It is an vnlikely likelihood for the matter it is to be applied vnto if you would haue made it like to that it shoulde prooue or whiche you bring it for Thus seemeth me should you haue made it As a man perswading himselfe bodily foode to bee infectious to his bodie or dangerous may not vse the same So in doctrine perswading himselfe that it is heresie or false he may not heare and receiue the same or some such way And then haue I shewed the weakenes and folly of the argument before and giuen example thereof that I neede not repeate the 〈◊〉 I say good meate shall be wholesome for the bodie and necessary too perswade men themselues therein as they will And the sounde doctrine of the Gospell heere professed and preached shall be much more wholesome and necessarie for the soule to keep to your kinde of comparing persuade you your selues therin as you list The testimonies of scripture c. that ye alleadge make nothing to the contrary hereof 〈◊〉 fully against you and the venime and danger of Poperie and Popish doctrine and heresie The very 〈◊〉 of the text with a religious minde will 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 testimonie of your abusing the same and your 〈◊〉 and your followers heerein I maruaile not a little 〈◊〉 you grounding this your first reason vpon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the same againe ouerthrowe perswasion For after you haue cited in one text by and by as it were by way of obiecting and answering without farther proceeding ye reason against perswasion If your men at least per swade themselues in that they thinke you will obtrude to your fellow and to vs too your perswasiō vnder the title of conscience not to be done against though it bee erroneous yee will not let other no not your fellowe rest in his persuasion Bide the law you make to other This is a very good touch to trie perswasiō and mens doings by the scriptures I would you would euer keepe that ground and trial in al y t matters in controuersie betweene you and vs That that which is done without warrant of scripture or is against scripture should be condemned reiected With this ouerthrowe we your perswasion here pretended with this ouerthrow we al your Reasons your whole religion and kingdōe of poperie mightily Popery y t is not grounded on holy scriptures nor followeth gods booke filleth mēs minds ful of vaine perswasions and their heades ful of ydle fancies which they that stay them selues vpon Gods holy word are free from their consciences clered As for example papists promise them selues many good thinges whereof they are in the end disapointed and so confounded for that they haue no warrant from God nor assurance of his worde Other limiting their hope keeping the same within the compasse of Gods worde and promise are not confounded but enioye the same and are blessed Blessed are they that put their trust in him Hope maketh not ashamed because it hath Gods promise going before Againe papistes and the vngod ly are afrayd where no feare is haue a faintnes and cowardlines in their heartes the sound of a leafe shaken chaseth them in 〈◊〉 they entangle and snare their constiences without neede whereas they that obserue 〈◊〉 and counsell that is heare Gods word stay vpon it and followe the 〈◊〉 as a light to guide them by c. are 〈◊〉 from such feare and liue in great and godly securitie Poperie it is alone and not Gods word that telleth them there is danger of infection in haunting our Church assemblies For your allegations and proofes out of the bookes that are Apocrypha which with you are as good and substantiall as Canonicall scriptures No distinction is to bee kept All is one with you I will not now charge you because the doctrine is true and agreeing to the Canonicall Scriptures and to be applied of our men to you and your religion as the rest yee heape together And yet yee must remember what Hierome in his prologues set before your owne translation of the Byble sayth of that booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and the like It were no hard matter to take the staffe here out of your handes and to beate your selfe withal As the diligent reader euen in this first reason may easilye perceiue So fitly doe these testimonies heere alleadged serue vs against you and can by no means bee forced against 〈◊〉 profession you may carry a persuasion to ground your reason vpon we shal haue y e truth y e matter to ground ours vpon Let me in passing take an example from you in answere for our dread Soueraigne and the States dealing here with you You tell vs of seucre lawes in the primitiue Churche made for prohibiting of corrupt and naughtie seruice sermons and reading of like bookes yee referre vs for proofe to the Emperours Martian and Iustinian and to the noble and zelous first Christian Emperour Constantine What doth her Maiestie other then followe those and like examples in forbidding your popish masse Your seditious bookes ful of poyson c. You say Constantine made it death for any man to read Arrius bookes and reason say you Are you angred that her maiestie dealeth not so with you and your bookes which are like If that bee the faulte it may be mended soone enough to your cost your Pope and Popishe heresie is no lesse dandgerous and hurtfull at this day then Arrius was then If you put her Maiestie in minde and call vpon such lawes to be made heere nowe 〈◊〉 like cause you maye quickely make a rodde for your selues the matter will hardely possible afterwarde bee 〈◊〉 with wordes or taken vp at your pleasures againe If you can do no more I counsel you yet to hold your peaces sit stil and be quiet For the rest where ye thunder out against 〈◊〉 Luther and iumble vp together the Professors of the Gospell in odious tearmes with other heretikes and sectaries of your broode as which your M. Howlet in the beginning of his Epistle Dedicatory to her Maiestie hath before confessed that yee neede not father the same heere on Lut her you doe but vtter your stomacke against Gods seruant in whom there were rare and excellent giftes of God and with whom and by whom his spirit mightily wrought for the aduancement of the Gospel in these later dayes shaking the very foundations of your Antichristiā kingdome It were not harde to shew here your errour
tender young children to be come Nouices in Monkeries Nunneries Before they knowe what the matter meaneth to vowe obedience single life wilfull pouertie c. to the vnspeakeable danger of their soules as they finde in processe of time when moe yeeres growe Doe you not knowe Syr that in our religion there is catechising and instruction in the principall pointes of christian religion both in Churches and houses for the auoiding of this danger of ignorance and superstition will the Pope of Rome or your Popish religion take vp that exercise of catechising and instructing publikely and priuately now vpon your admonition thinke you I hardly beleeue it There is much a doe here to persuade any of your side that it is necessary for their children seruants and so foorth and if they cannot themselues doe it to send them to the Pastours of the church to haue the same there for all her Maiesties and the States godly care and prouision in that behalfe and the continuall enquirie and calling vpon by those to whom that charge is committed Can you for your heart denie her Maiestie her due commendation for this her godly care ouer her people c. You content not your selfe with this first kinde of scandale because this hardly serueth you and yet herein is contained you confesse the proper signification of scandale Ye come to the seconde point of scandale in a thing of it selfe lawful Looke how much the scriptures which ye cite teaches vs so much we receiue your addition and application wee receiue not you giue vs an example of a Priestes haunting dishonest and suspected houses meaning honestly This is your addition though you giue much to your Priestes and more libertie then to laye people in these cases yet I tel you I thinke it an vnlawfull thing for a Priest to vse and haunt dishonest houses and not so lawfull as you vnder honest meaning doe here cloke it to bee you giue your Priests too large a scope to walke in or else yee thinke too well of them that they can hardely take hurt of any thing The scriptures you cite in the first Reason with many other make against this doyng of priestes in respect of God the matter and themselues and not of Scandale to other only as you here pretende hauing the licentious libertie you giue them they might easily washe away this blot of Scandale if there were no more yea they may lawfully by your doctrine doe more than this vpon their Ecclesiasticall Immunitie In the sayd second parte of your golden Decree Is it not noted set out furder in y e margin that a clarke embracing or taking a woman in his armes is presumed to doe well and that men should not be offended thereat but iudge the best Is it not sayd in your 〈◊〉 there If a clarke embrace or cull a woman it shall bee interpreted that hee doeth this to blesse her withall Is it not in an other place said by one of your men Although groping and kissing be occasions of naughtie behauiour in lay men yet in Clarkes it is otherwise for a Clarke is presumed to doe these thinges of charitie and good zeale c. Heere is expressed your honest meaning sir and shewed that many 〈◊〉 are lawfull for your priestes which caused that case to be noted vs in your glose and set out in the margin of your decrees in an other place also Wantonnes sumetime hath more right then chastitie and againe yet furder they say now that no priest is to bee deposed for fornication except he continue in it and that because our bodies are nowe frailer then they were in times past These such be now the Immunities of your Clergy men Of your third point of Scandale in respect of the enemie I saye you take so much as you thinke will serue your turne But you leaue out that which if it had beene added woulde haue answered the whole in this case for there is a Scandale in deede taken and not giuen whereby too many are offended at Iesus Christ his seruants their doctrine and well doing And so be there that bee offended at godlye sermons and at the going therto now a dayes c. But wee may not for the auoiding of this Scandale leaue so necessarie a point of our saluation as is the one and other Nowe as I haue elswhere noted our Sauiour Christ wee see regarded not the offence of the Pharisees in a matter as 〈◊〉 of lesse importance and wee 〈◊〉 not haue A better example to follow than his So he that 〈◊〉 by example exhortation c. wife children freendes seruan s and other to haunt Church exercises here vsed is so farre of from 〈◊〉 his soule or theirs as by abstaining or not doing hereof he incurreth that danger and by doing the same doth a seruice agreeable to God and but his duetie so answer I you for y e third also which falleth in 〈◊〉 y e first point Taking away your respect of worldly policie for which if any man haunt our church assemblies and not for religion and conscience sake he greatly offendeth God and his prince our Soueraigne vnder God abuseth himselfe and the Lawes is disliked of al the godly And herein you and we agree I trow for the general end of cōming to church assemblies For the seconde pointe of Scandale 〈◊〉 you 〈◊〉 comming to our Seruice or Prayers to bee first we gather and must suppose that if your Catholike offende that way by your owne doctrine his comming to our seruice is a thing of it selfe lawfull and of the owne nature not vncleane before God but in respect of the lookers on Otherwise hardly will your comparison and application proceed out of the 14. to the Romans and the 8. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinthians and how agreeth this with your whole discourse Againe where you say They that knowe him in wardly to be a Catholike will thinke him to sinne against his owne conscience c. We aske how any should knowe a man inwardely or his heart and conscience which is proper to God to knowe What man knoweth the thinges of a man but the spirite of man that is in him If you reply and say you knowe him by his owne wordes I answere that where his deedes be contrary that is no knowledge to iudge his religion by In hypocritical Catholike religion An hypocrite and double man doyng actes of contrary religion may bee and 〈◊〉 a Catholike in religion by his fayre speech and wordes contrary to that he doth and his example doe much with them that take him to bee of their religion still for his wordes sake yea and knowe him inwardly to bee a Catholike as you speake which is more In Christian and true religion contrary deedes waie downe wordes for all the fayre shew with true Christians So as but that you speake of your Catholikes and Catholike religion that is
oftē I wil leaue these three reasons of Schisme Participation with heresie and 〈◊〉 after I haue noted a worde or two there of more till these men can alleadge some sounde proofe that wee are that which they bee that is Schismatikes and Heretikes For Dissimulation as we loue plaine dealing and Christs Religion and the truth is ioyned with a godly simplicitie so hope we well that thase that come to Church aslemblies here doe the same with a single and vpright heart wee sitte not in their heartes and consciences we knowe not what is in them Which thing if they doe not they haue learned their dissimulation in Poperie and not in Christes schoole nor of y e profession of his Gospel Though I send not them quicke to hell with this discourser as I haue said yet surely are they to be reputed very bad folke so as hardly can there bee worse commonly among men especially in cases of religion let them examine themselues by the holy scriptures learne their duetie thence and repent in time else will they bee founde neyther true seruantes of God nor duetifull subiectes to her Maiestie in the ende nor yet good common wealth men God giue grace to consider hereof to shame the diuell wee eyther iudge them not or iudge the best and charitably of them I maruell not a litle at these words of yours in the latter ende of your Reason of Dissimulation many a thousand now in England being as throughly perswaded in heart of the trueth of the Catholike religion as the Apostles and other Christians at that time that is in the time of the Apostles were of theirs are cōtent not withstanding to heare digest admit and execute all or most parte of these thinges recited contrary to the sayde religion Here yee liken together the Apostles and olde Christians and many of your Catholikes nowe in Englande the Apostles and Christians religion then and your catholike religion nowe and you shewe these mens vsage to be vnlikely and diuerse in sticking to these two religions By the way heere I note that your Catholike religion and the Apostles and christians then bee two religions and diuerse else yee speake verye 〈◊〉 But let that goe howe can you or any in englande be as throughly perswaded in heart of your Catholike religion nowe which is false and not only net grounded on Gods worde but contrary thervnto as the Apostles and Christians in the primitiue Churche were of theirs which had God and the Scriptures for their grounde and warraunt Though a house buylded on the sande may haue a faire shewe yet in strength for want of a good foundation it can neuer be so strong as that which is buylt on a Rocke He that heareth Christes woordes and doeth the same is like a wise builder on a Rocke I wis he that heareth your Masse Mattens c. is farre off from that 〈◊〉 in blindenesse may be easily gathered thereby and a senselessenes whereof commeth no good but muche hurt As the contrary commeth by hearing Sermons and preaching of the Gospell Constancie and a good conscience is rather lost then retayned much lesse gayned or encreased by your blynd and superstitious religion You run to your olde starting hole of perswading your selues bee it ryght bee it wrong But to haue a true a sounde and a good setled perswasion for religion and matters of conscience it must be stayed in heauen it must be warranted by Gods holie worde and Scriptures whiche you for your religion are distitute of els can it not be I will 〈◊〉 say so thorough as the Apostles c. But in truth not good nor to bee trusted vnto Your seuenth reason is that our Gods seruice is naught and dishonorable to God and therefore must be abstained from Surely you say somewhat nowe if you coulde prooue that yee say this is the first the last and all the reasons that are worth the examining the foundation and grounde of all the rest Let vs see therefore how you goe about to prooue this point forsooth at the first entrie ye leaue of your proofe and fall a confuting of our reason before you prooue the matter One may perceiue it is easier with you in wordes to finde fault then in deede to mende it or iustly to shewe where and wherein the fault lyeth that other might mende the same The Scriptures lye in your way like a shrewd blocke yee thinke good therefore first to assay to remooue that and then to proceede in your purpose after Handeled Dratour like with your figure accordingly but florished at in deede rather then any thing els doone That wee haue the Bible and the Scriptures so familiar and so strong on our side that offendeth you that angreth you that hindreth your purpose greatly But we thanke God therfore highly Burne the Bibles and burne them againe fume and fret rage and doe what you can yet bidding battaile to God he will be founde stronger then you and yee shall not pruaile Alas poore scripture is that it so offendeth you it is the swoorde of the spirite It bringeth vs many yea infinite other necessary and vnspeakeable commodities we cannot forgoe it sir wee are vtterly vndoone if it be takē away from vs. I pray you giue vs leaue to haue it and to vse it Can you not prooue our church assemblies naught but you must impugne and disgrace the scriptures Must you needes beginn and make entrance there Happy for vs vnhappie for you A happie turne for vs that wee and our cause nor our God his seruice cannot be foiled but with the scriptures an vnhappie matche for you but euen to mislike with Gods booke What woulde you haue vs to commend our God his seruice with better then the Scriptures Wee that are Christians like that better then traditions and inuentions of men which you here talke of very cunningly quoting vs Augustine in the Margin as though hee in those places condemned Scriptures to contmende traditions which is neither so nor so as wee shall see after by examination thereof Take you therefore these traditions and leaue vs the scriptures so we may feede 〈◊〉 pure fine wheate eate your Cods huskes chaffe and what you will Ye are nowe in the matter in controuersie betwene vs we confesse It hath been the question betwene Papists and Protestants that is betweene you and vs full these threescore yeeres now together who shalbe y t iudge to decide y e matters in cōtrouersie betweene vs we say the holy Scriptures and woorde of God wee appeale to that you say no not the Scriptures by any meanes It is the Heretikes booke let the writinges on both partes be perused for proofe and try all heereof but let vs goe forwarde w t this reasoner If our seruice being full of scripture as yee say it bee no good argument that the same is therefore infallible good I pray you let vs know the good argumēt y e wil proue your
popish Latine seruice infallible good It is cōtrary to ours ours to y t an argumēt taken of the contrary will serue it seemeth your turne that is your seruice is therefore infallible good because it hath no Scriptures or is contrary to the scriptures as it is in deed shewed plainely and plainly if not to you yet to all those that haue any eyes to see eares to heare or heartes to consider thereof The whole Scripture sir is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teache to improoue to correct and to instruct in righteousnesse that the man of God may bee absolute and made perfect to all good workes Good is the Scripture nothing but good euery way and most perfectly good As bad as your seruice is yet for shame coulde your men not call it God his or diuine seruice without taking some patches of the Scriptures to commend the same withall If ours haue more scripture and in better order as in deede not dalying therewith at least let it not be blamed therefore finde some other faulte in it Let not the Scripture make our seruice like to wicked seruice for that respect and vs in it to be like Iewes Heretikes and the Diuell and his talke with Christ so ye speake vnlesse yee can make it for some like respect and in such sense as Christes comming to iudgement is to a theeues soden comming and at vnawares And then shall it not be preiudiciall to vs nor to our god his seruice nor auaile or help your cause But I am not carefull to expound your meaning that meane as seemeth very vnhappily I pray you set vs not to make Apologies or prayses of the Scriptures nowe You cite Augustine that it was alwayes the fashion of heretikes to haue scripture in their mouth and to cleaue only to scriptures and to refuse traditions as inuentions of men though we bee not bounde to Augustine yet wee aske you where Augustine hath it Yee say against Maximinus wee tell you as wee are inforced still to do that you say vntruly Augustine findeth no fault with y e Arrian Heretike there for citing or vsing y e testimonies of the scriptures but for abusing the same For hee himselfe entreth that combate with the Arrian Bishop and by scriptures confuteth Arrianisme Augustine graunteth that the Arrian Bishop vseth the true testimonies of God his Scripture which is more then we can graunt you Papistes now adayes which for your sluttish handeling false allegation of Scriptures shewe your selues worse then y e old Heretike who corrupted not nor peruerted the holy Scriptures but the faulte that Augustine chargeth him with is that he woulde prooue thereby saith he their false doctrine of Arrius concerning Christe his diuinitie which is not possible to doe God his true scriptures can not prooue any false doctrine The Art of Logicke woulde teache you so much as I tolde you before This is the abuse then that Augustine reprooueth and wee with him yea with God Christe and all the Godly that where Arrius doctrine was directly contrary to the scripture with sophistrie glosing and other shiftes hee woulde goe about to maintaine the same and hale in the scriptures by the haire as they say to seeme to prooue that which they condemne whome and his wrangling Augustine by scripture and by no other meanes confuteth Wee are no Arrians we are not nor will not bee Heretikes shewe that wee doe abuse the scriptures as to ouerthrowe Christs diuinitie thereby or to establishe diuelish doctrines deuised by our selues or taken from other men as you doe or els forbeare to liken vs and our God his seruice to wicked Iewes heretikes and Diuels What you are and your behauiour let your doinges tell whereof as occasion serueth euer and 〈◊〉 I giue the Reader a taste here in this reason is among the rest some sparkes of your modestie commended by your fellowe M. Howlet to the s kie in his Preface to her maiestie to discerne a Sectarie by his spirite and proceeding Because you cite Augustine heere against Maximinus an arrian Bishop and heretike and the first booke I wish y e learned Reader to looke on y e place to see your cunning or sleight rather Augustine pressing the heretike to declare his faith of the father the sonne and the holy ghost the Heretike ranne as to a starting hole to a councell of many Bishops saying hee beleeued as they beleeued this is your maner aright you knowe your diuinitie tale I am sure of the Collier and the great Clarke his scholler commended and set vs downe by your side as some heauenly Oracle Howe beleeuest thou Answere as the Church beleeueth and howe beleeueth the Church answere as I beleeue further woulde hee not goe but still repeate that and this was no table for that great doctour and Clarke to marke and carry away for his vse and to teache other But Austen heere checketh the heretike for that answere and biddeth him expresse his owne faith Howe hee beleeueth and not runne to the councell of Ariminum and name that The words are these Augustine saith to the heretike Tell me thy fayth of the father and the sonne and the holy Ghost Maximin the heretike answereth If you aske my fayth I holde that faith which at Arminium was not onely expounded but also by subscriptiō confirmed of three hundred thirtie Byshops Here was a counsel of a great many moe byshops then were at your Trent meeting Augustine sayth I sayd euen nowe and I repeate the same because thou wouldest not answere me Tell me thy fayth of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost c. And by and by after therfore I sayde thou wouldest not answer because whilest I required that thou shouldest tell me thy fayth of the father and the sonne and the holy Ghost which I yet now aske thou hast not tolde me thy fayth but hast named the Councell of Ariminum I would know thy fayth what thou beleeuest what thou thinkest of the father the sonne and the holy Ghost If thou wilt vouchsafe let me heare it of thine owne mouth Sende me not to those writings which eyther are not nowe heere present and ready or I am not bounde to their authoritie c. No Augustine what not to a Councell and that of so many Byshops No in deede neither to Councell nor multitude but to the scriptures onely And therefore against the same Maximin he sayth afterwardes neither ought I preiudicially to bring forth now the Councell of Nice whiche made for Augustine and was the first most famous generall Councell after the Apostles time Neyther oughtest thou to bring foorth the Councell of Ariminum whiche wee hearde euen now the heretike alleadged for him I am 〈◊〉 bounde to this councels authoritie sayth Austen nor thou to the authoritie of that Nicene Councell No Augustine Againe I say not bound to the Nicene
Councell No verily Let matter with matter saith he cause with cause Reason with reason pleade by the authorities of the scriptures not proper witnesses of euery bodie but common to both c. This am I the bolder with the Reader to set downe that we may see your skill and trust in citing the fathers If one should followe all he should make great volumes which I doubt whether for your pleasures it bee necessarie For the diuels talke with Christ how I pray you did our 〈◊〉 confute him was it not by the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 afore I sayde Augustine did the heretike Yes yes still and all by the scriptures so necessary and profitable 〈◊〉 are they say or thinke you what you will Though we finde not for that which followeth the wordes in Hierome where ye sende vs to seeke them yet because it may be the fault of the Printer I presse it not you shoulde haue prooued and shewed vs to be heretikes before ye should haue applied that to our seruice supposition is a bare proofe and serueth not The strange howling as of wolues and bellowing noyse of mad Bullockes that in your Synagogues you make by your piping and singing in a strange tongue in that you call your diuine seruice seemeth to bee liuely expressed by Hierome both in this sentence and elsewhere also when vppon these wordes of the Prophet Amos Take from me the confused noyse of thy Hymnes I will not heare the musicke of thy Organes that worde doeth Hierome set downe according to the Septuagints translation The Prayer sayth he of the Iewes and the Psalmes whiche they sing in their Synagogues and the heretikes curious and set hymne or prayer as one would say artificially done with descant and quauering is a trouble vnto the Lord that I may so speake it is the grunting of a hog and the braying of Asses c And in the new Testament vpon these wordes of the Apostle Singing and making melodie vnto the Lord Let them heare saith Hierome whose office it is to sing in the Church that God is to bee sung to not with voice but with heart and that their throate and iawes are not to be annointed and cleered with oyntmēts like players that measure and stagelike noise and songues maye by hearde in the Churche but in feare in deede in knowledge of the scriptures although there be some man as they are wonte to speake of an euell brest or voyce If hee haue good woorkes hee is a sweete singer with God Let the seruant of Christ so sing that not the voyce of the singer but the wordes that are read may delight and please c. Thus much out of Hierome whome ye cite vpon occasion of wolues howling and the bellowing noise of mad bullockes that the reader may see whether the same and the like agree better with your curious pricksong and descant in your latin seruice or with our moderate and plain singing of Dauid his Psalines in the mother tongue Hee that is desirous to see more how fitly your wanton and fleshly melodie or roring rather in your Popish Churches is represented by Hierom. Let him looke vpon Cornelius Agrippa Erasmus Polidore Virgil and such like who euen in our time so great plained of y t vnreasonable brutishe disorder in your popish Churches and namely heere in England for that is by expresse wordes noted of Erasmus Yee cite Augustin here twise together and still of the Donatist Heretikes it was the first place ye cited in the entrance of your discourse how litle to purpose we there examined wee tel you againe again we are neither donatists nor other heretikes that shoulde you haue bent your selfe first to haue prooued that these testimonies might haue seemed to haue beene 〈◊〉 applied as that vnprooued and so is like to remaine they iustly maye nowe bee applyed to you Betweene your two places here alleadged out of Augustine the same Augustine vpon the words of Dauid I cryed vnto the Lorde sayeth well and that to the Donatiste Crye you to the Lorde not to Donatus So say we to you popishe Heretikes Crye to the Lorde not to this Patrone and that which you haue made to your selues not to this canonized Saint of your Popes nor to that whereof some like ynough are farre from heauen and so from helping of you Take the lustie prelate of Englande Your S. Thomas Becket for example if ye will or some such like Saint of your making wee say as Augustine sayde in his dayes according to the perpetual doctrine of the sacred scriptures Crie vnto the Lorde not to any creature wee adde furder with him euen in this place Let no man be thy Lorde for the Lorde hee meaneth in steade of the true Lorde of heauen which vnder the Lorde woulde not bee thy fellowe seruaunt Whether it bee in heauen Let God in prayer be 〈◊〉 per se A as they say Or vppon earth to shut out your Lorde god the Pope and to bring him to bee but a fellowe seruaunt with other Let that God of heauen keep his prerogatiue or else bee you in exalting and setting vp that man of sinne Heretikes with the Donatistes Briefly to shut vp this place finde no fault with our seruice for that it hath the scriptures and put a difference between the Iewes Heretiks and the diuelishe peruerting and abusing the same and the right vse thereof with reuerence to our instruction and learning that through pacience and comfort we may haue hope which is an ende the Apostles setteth vs down the same to be written for Let it in all things be A lanterne to our feete and a light to our path as holy Dauid speaketh For which causes also the same is nowe published and made common vnto vs by her Maiestie and the State Marke the great benefite the Churche of God here hath reaped thereby and still doth and yee shall shewe your selfe besides your impietie to Gods worde very vncharitable and enuious to grudge vs the Scriptures or to reproche the same vnto vs. Nowe whether wee be Heretikes that sticke to the scriptures and to the sincere plaine and sure interpretation therof by themselues that one place may sufficiently expounde another that wee neede not run to men to haue the true sense but to let the holy 〈◊〉 euer expounde himselfe Or you that cannot nor will not bee content with this but call for this doctours exposition that doctours sense and so foorth rouing and running at randon if the worlde may not be iudge yet I pray you let your owne Cannon Lawe be iudge betweene vs Wee must take the sense and meaning of the Truth out of the scriptures themselues sayth Gratian out of Pope Clement And yet furder out of Hierome Whosoeuer otherwise vnderstandeth the scripture then the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost by whom it was written requireth Although he be not departed
and gone out of the Churche yet may hee bee called an Heretike and it is among the workes of the fleshe chosen those things that are the worse c. Wee knowe the Queenes coyne by the stampe by the Image by the inscription if it carry not that marke wee may lawfully refuse it euen so in the matters and truth of God c. But it is time to proceede with you After you haue thus declamed agaynst the Scriptures in our seruice you goe about to recken vp all the faultes ye can imagine to bee therein which in a bedroll yee recken vs vp to be in all about sixe whereof you make two heads one the thinges that be in it the other the thinges it wanteth It is happie yee can spie no moe faultes in particular but sixe Surely your Latine seruice were lesse daungerous and hurtfull if a man coulde in the whole finde but halfe so many good thinges amongst an infinite number of faultes nay the whole must needes bee not in part altered but quite vndone reiected and newe begunne againe or els wil there bee no Gods his seruice among you at all For our seruice it may haue some faultes wee denie not As it commeth to passe in things that goe through mens hands wee accompt not our bookes of seruice a Byble wee make it not equall with G O D his Booke But this wee hold what imperfections so euer there may be therein yet all layed together will be no sufficient Reason for you or anye man els to abstaine from Churche assemblies here which is the ende of this your Reason and that it driueth vnto You say our seruice is so naught as it may not be haunted we denie it Let vs see howe you proue it first in particular you say it is deuised by our selues different frō your Romish Catholike seruice through Christendome so I take your words and meaning As this is no warrant for the goodnesse of our seruice so is it not hereby prooued to bee naught so that yee vnderstande the same to bee so deuised by vs as it haue a farder warrant then mans head and fancy as being grounded and directed by Gods holy word The summe the grounde the substance Gods the 〈◊〉 forme and manner or order done by godly men There is in deede no Lyturgie or outwarde forme of 〈◊〉 Prayer for euery congregation set downe and particularly described in God his worde it had been a matter endelesse and needelesse to haue prescribed euery particular thing beongling to seruerall Church assemblies The substaunce and generall direction is to bee had in the worde of God and thence to be taken and thereby in euery particular circumstance to be ordred for diuers and seuerall congregations dispersed in many Countreys The rest is the Application is to bee perfourmed by the Churches for their necessitie and vse accordingly and so may be lawful for 〈◊〉 Church to doe the like without your checke and controlement Yee hearde before of the diuers and sundrye orders and manners of Masses in your Romaine Church as yee call it in Italie France Englande and so forth And your S. Gregorie as is recorded by Bede willed Augustine the Monke to take that frō other Churches here and there for this Englishe Churchs seruice that shoulde bee most conuentent Is it not knowne to all the worlde that your Mattens Euensong Complyn Dirige Masse and so foorth was of diuers Byshops of Romes patching c. And a long time a doyng before it was in that order you nowe vse it Did not your Trent meeting of late agree and appoint your Church seruice shoulde bee reformed did not your Pope according to that decree euen of late yeres reforme your breuiary and Missall ywis sir wee giue no such scope of reformation in our Gospelling Churches but teach and holde that all shoulde be doen by and according to the rule of God his booke and holy Scriptures as in matters appertayning to his Maiestie with all godly reuerence and humblenesse of minde You say it is altogether different from your seruice so woulde wee haue it to bee for that Poperie is too bad a paterne to reforme Christes Churche by It is euen as vnfit to bee an example for a reformed Church to followe as a fylthy hogstie is to frame and build a Princes Palace by and more vnfitte too The freer our Churches and assemblies be from Popishe corruptions the more happie be they a great deale You knowe in that olde and vnhappie controuersie about keeping of Easter in the 〈◊〉 Church home the fathers 〈◊〉 it vnmeete to followe the wicked Iewes who had crucifted Christ in obseruing their Easter on the foureteenth day of the first moneth as Constantine then emperour wryteth And y e gospel I am sure no better but a great deale woorse agreeth w t poperie our christiā religiō w t your romish seruice 〈◊〉 we easily admit that it is false that our seruice differeth in nothing from yours but that it is now in English which was then in latin so were our English seruice too too bad We would haue you and all the worlde thinke otherwise of the matter and we wishe you take no occasion thereat to thinke so wee are content to ease you of the paine to compare or prooue that point You say the hotter sort of protestants called Puritanes condemne the seruice of the protestants here and refraine from it as much as Catholikes doe Though there be that wish a more full reformation of the whole Churche and religion yet knowe I none of the godly learned that say with you it is vnlawfull to come at Church assemblish heere nor themselues refraine frō them There may bee some fewe simple vnlearned folke that of hatred to your superstitious and intollerable bloodie dealings afore time wherewith by their wills they would haue no communion or fellowship that may make some scruple therin for that they of zeale defie y e remnants steps traces ceremonies and all affinitie and likelihood with Poperie but howe agree they with you and you with them euen as as dogge and cat as they say so little vauntage haue you by them Your mindes and purposes beeing so contrarie the one to the other I minde not to bee a Patrone of euery bodies cause yee haue heard what I said before of that matter whither I here referre you till I heare your answere Such godly moderation woulde I haue kept in this matter as I trust can and will offende none that are godly Wisedome may not quenche zeale zeale may not destroy wisedome godly zeale and godly wisdome may stande together and goe together and so must doe and in Gods matters the worde of God must direct and order both Let mee I pray you aske of you whether they of your side that wished and sought for reformation of your Popishe seruice at Trent meeting condemned the same refrained from resorting to your Popishe Churche and seruice
as much as Protestants or no I weene you will answere me no. Then let that serue to answere you in this point heere You say the Scriptures are read among vs in false and shamelesse translations c. This is the next particular fault you find And this were to be hearkened vnto if it werē true as it is most impudent and false still you goe about to bereaue vs of the Scriptures which I would haue the Reader mark it is your olde practise Yee say this hath beene shewed in particular by many learned men ye say so onely and there you leaue them and that they haue saide And vntill you particular out of your learned men wee can say nothing but that they haue carried shame for their malicious lying and slaundering Yee threaten wee shalbe iolily quayled in this matter shortly and by whome I prap you Forsooth one of your coat telleth vs by Gregory Martin Alas poore man hee is but one and farre inferiour and too weake to deale with those and so many graue learned and godly fathers that haue to God his glory the Churches inestimable benefite and their owne singular commendation trauelled in translating the English Bible But let him goe and your bragge and threate till wee see more and heare furder from him It may bee wee shall receiue some profite and benefite by him to amend some little faultes that may haue escaped men aforetime You know howe harde a thing it is to doe such a work so absolutely as nothing may be missing or wanting therein Though he bee an enimie yet wee will not refuse to bee admonished by him wee will maintaine no faulte as you doe wee will stande in no errour Let it bee shewed and prooued a faulte and it will be mended with all thankefulnesse to the admonisher But I am afraide all will bee but poore spight and this maketh mee the rather to thinke so because your faultes heere set downe are no better you are pickling and carping at our English translation of the Bible You cannot tarry tyll your friendes booke come foorth I remember what was said in Queene Maries dayes when yee burned the English Bibles to excuse so horrible a fact withall ye said the Bible was naughtily translated and being demaunded a better by the people that were loth to forgoe that till they had a better yee promised they shoulde haue it better translated that promise since that time you haue forgotten at least you haue not vntill this day perfourmed the same possible you will better thinke thereof nowe and yet I hardly beleeue that But let vs heare howe clarkely and woorthily you handle your selfe to shewe manifest and wilful corruptions in our translations to drawe the Scripture to our owne purposes Throughout the scripture where Idols are forbidden they translate it Images say you Howe can this be better checked and prooued a plaine lye and a slaunder then in looking vpon our Bibles which in the old Testament and the newe also vse the worde of Idols and Idolatrie Wee neither refuse in time and place as occasion serueth to set downe y t name of Idols nor yet are we in fond loue with the name of Images Let the Christian Reader try herein this discoursers trustie truth by looking into the English Byble heere authorised and vsed in Churche assemblies vnder her Maiestie Yee say throughout the scripture where Idols are forbidden wee translate it Images If this be an impudent vntruth and no better but a lewde rayling against our godly translations of the Bible then who may trust you in other matters Howe shall wee thinke ye deale honestly and plainely in this cause And that it is no better will I vndertake briefly to shewe to giue the Reader herein also a taste of your hollowe double dealing though I be 〈◊〉 in following you it commeth so often First in our Scripture seruice then in some Chapters of the Bible in the old and newe Testament besides let the Reader looke in the 115. Psalme the 4. verse there shall hee finde that thus it is Monethly read in our Churches on the three twentieth day of the moneth at Euening prayer Their Idols are siluer and golde euen the work of mens hands c. Is not heere the worde Idols and Images In the Epistle read on Easter day taken out of the 3. Chapter to the Collossians Couetousnesse which is worshipping of Idols Heere is againe read Idols not Images in our trāslation Then are your wordes of vs vntrue a slaunder of our English translation of the Bible Aboue these 40. yeeres hath it beene thus translated in our English Bibles Lying it seemeth cost you no money But how is it in your Romish translation in both places Images thē condemne you that and yet me doe not so for that nor in that respect wee say all commeth to one in both places howe say you But let vs leaue your translation answere for our owne You say throughout the scripture where Idols are forbidden wee translate it Images This is your example to shewe our translations in Englishe to be naught let mee reprooue this your saying by contrary examples taken out of our English trāslations yet will I alleadge no other translation herein then y t which is aboue fortie yeres olde The other yee haue lesse to complaine of that haue beene since translated And yet I diminish nothing of the fidelitie and 〈◊〉 of that translation in King Henrie the eight his dayes which it wel deserueth among al y e godly If any bee well translated in Englishe Allowe English Churche that Bibles some bee faultlesse euen in these places for that you carpe other for at least before you burned all you should haue giuen vs a better of your owne translating which you will neuer doe vnlesse you woulde be accounted enimies rather to the Bible and matter it self then to the translation But I will proceede with the word and name of Idols which yee say wee throughout the scriptures translate Images take vpon you to shewe why wee doe so full Clarkelye Besides that I haue alredie sayd and that the diligent reader may obserue and gather of himselfe let among other these places be read in the Bybles translated in our noble King Henry his dayes her maiesties worthie Father to shew the 〈◊〉 cauilling and lying vanitie first in the Law and the Prophets that is the olde Testament then in the newe Genes 31. 35. Thus readeth the English Byble So searched he but found not those Idols Leuit 19. 4. Ye shal not turn vnto Idols 4. Kings 17. 12. They serued most vile Idols For the Prophets looke Esay 42. 17. and 44. thrise verse 〈◊〉 17. 19. A God and an Idol an abhominable Idol c and 45. 20. Haue they any vnderstanding that set vp the stockes of their Idols pray vnto a God that cannot helpe them c. Ezek 8. 〈◊〉 and the 6. foure times verse 4. 9. 13. twise
to denie but that Cutbert Tonstall a piller of the popish Church here Bishop then of Durresme and in Queene Maries time also was a principall man in perusing that translation at the king his commaundement If your self had looked but on the very first chapter of the first booke of the Maccabees in the Englishe Byble and the latter ende of the Chapter besides that you might haue seene whose successours the Pope and you Papistes bee in renting cutting burning and destroying Bybles 1. Maccabees 1. 59. 60. Yee might haue founde the woord idole and idoles foure times vsed there in the Englishe Bible translated in that our renoumed Prince his dayes king Henry the 8 once more in deede than in your common translation that ye make so much of Let the reader looke the Chapter and iudge So farre are we off from that you vainely surmise and put vpon vs measuring vs by your owne foote The seconde fault you finde is for that our God his seruice and sacraments is not sayed and ministred by Priestes but by meere lay men so ye speake though wee haue but too many of your Popishe Priestes among vs But Sir for this grounde of your Reason Is the seruice or sacramentes therefore to be accompted naught because the partie that ministreth the same is not a conuenient minister Ye doe not make I take it the sacrament to depend on the worthinesse of the Minister As for saying Church seruice that God his Ministers are bounde vnto it is the preaching of God his word and gospel the administring of Christ his Sacrament Baptisme and the Lord his Supper and withall to make publique Prayers with the Assemblie As in deede these thinges can not bee perfourmed without publique Prayer c. Other seruice as your Popishe Mattens Masse Euensong Compline 〈◊〉 c. Wee leaue willingly to your popishe Priestes of whom and their office in Christe his Churche no more then of this kinde of your seruice wee haue no mention nor warrant in al the Newe Testament But for sacramentes doe you not holde I pray you and teach with your Canon lawe taken out of Austin that Baptisme is holie of it selfe which is giuen in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost so that there is also in the same sacrament the authoritie of tradition by our Lord to the Apostles and by them to the Bishops other Priestes and laye persons also that are Christians comming from the same beginning and stocke c. And in the glose there the Lord deliuered the forme of Baptising to the Apostles and by them to others euen lay persons And in another place pope Iohn saith to do this work of baptising if it be need ful is freely graūted to faithful lay mē according to cano nical authoritie First therfore I say for this place y t your Priestes be intruders into Church offices without lawfull calling from God Next if lay men haue any thing to doe in this businesse of Churche ministerie I say they take the authoritie from your popishe religion not from Christ nor the Christian religion that we professe Thirdly I say that this is no sufficient reason to stay from our Church assemblies whereto you driue neither is one bounde alwayes to enquire of the person or certainely to vnderstand whether hee be a Priest or no before they come to the Church or receiue but to respect the matter which is God his the edifiyng of our owne consciences thereby c. and for the rest to suppose the man that executeth that charge is a publike church minister lawfully called or standeth and is reputed for such a one at least while the Church and state disaloweth him not I speake not in defence of any that without lawefull calling medle in Church functions nor that they of authoritie may suffer and beare with such or let them alone I speake only for the satisfying of priuate mens consciences in this case Lastly I say if that be your let of comming to Church it may be soone eased For there be diuers and to many as I sayed here in the Ministerie that haue bin afore time priestes Chuse your place your person and come to Church but you meane it not I weene it is but a shift and a cloke to couer more mischiefe vnder For the name of priestes because it is somewhat doubtfully taken and wee loue to speake playnely Therefore we call such Christ his Ministers Pastours Byshops or Ouerseers and such other names as we finde in the Apostles wrytings doe wee giue our church ministers agreeable to their holy functiōs We leaue the name of Priestes and their sacrifieing office as vnwonted and vnused by the holie Ghost in the newe Testament in Church functions in the time of the Gospel whō and whose phrase of speaking in his matters especially we like well to followe so much as we may though wee loue not in the meane while to striue about names where the matter is plain You quot your margin but you set vs down the words of no expresse testimonie neyther in deede is it materiall to stande vpon wordes or to coulour thinges by doubtfulnesse of speach when the matter is euident And therefore leauing your priests and priesthood without all foundation and staye of God his booke yee turne to the Apostle in the Epistle to the Hebrews whiche after your manner yee cite falsely against vs and runne at large that no man may take vnto him this honour but he that is called of GOD shoulde yee haue say de as Aaron was Ye say true For in deede no man is meete to bee our high Priest but Iesus Christ who was appointed and called therto of God and of whom and his preisthood Aaron was a figure The more wrong a great deale doth your pope to Christ and to his church also to take vpō him y e title office of high Priest in Christ his Church without warrant from God seeing it was allotted by a singular prerogatiue to our Sauiour Christ alone of his Father As the Apostle 〈◊〉 by in the next verse declareth Thou art my Sonne this day haue I begotten thee And againe yet straight way Thou art a Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedec The greater and more is your fault still that will needes succeede him in the office of Priesthood whether he will or no When hee neither needeth nor shall haue any successor As who liueth a Priest for euer And calling all Christians into the fellowship of his Priesthood hath made vs a Royall priesthood and Kings and Priests to God euen his Father without appointing any to serue the office of a sacrificing priest in Church Ministerie Shewe as good a warrant of God his calling you to the office of Priesthood to sacrifice the Sonne of God dayly for the quicke and the dead c. and wee will yeelde but yee can not Nay yee cite the scripture
against your selfe ye tell vs much of men of fathers counselles fained Canons of the Apostles and the authoritie of the Catholike Church You say because Ministers be not ordained by such a Byshop and Priest as the Catholike Church hath put in that authoritie therefore they haue no autoritie in Church matters I finde two faults here with you one for clipping the king of heauen his lawfull coyne or leauing out a worde of importance in this text of the 5. to the Hebrews For ye should say that is called of God But it is your mauer ye can doe it well enough we haue nowe taken tryall thereof but too much and yee thinke ye may doe herein what ye list without coutrolement The other fault is that when you haue put God his name out of the text in whome the Apostle sayeth the authoritie is to call and appoint c. If yee did cite that text to proue that all Church Ministeries and ministers must haue God for their foundation and Authour and must be called of him wee woulde finde no fault But you place in God his steade your Catholike Church of Rome you meane I trowe This dealing wee cannot away with where God is shut out what haue we to doe with men or the Churches authoritie c. The sentence of S. Paule to Timothie speaketh nothing of the dignitte of the high Priest Ye neede not haue put in therefore this dignitie there neither speaketh 〈◊〉 one worde of your Popishe priesthood and Priestes but of those he called before Ancients or Elders in that Chapter where ye finde laying on of handes ye dreame of making Priests and giuing orders by and by But that ye like any pharse better than the Scriptures ye might haue also called Timothie with S. Paul an Euangelist c. as wel as by a name which y e scripture giueth him not 〈◊〉 is not nowe y e first time you call him thus The name I denie not is honest lawfull vsed in the scriptures But because it is diuersly taken sometime generally sometime particularly and in vse of speeche with vs sometime for such a one as is a Popish or false Bishop somtime for a true 〈◊〉 of Christe there needeth distinction 〈◊〉 plaine exposition for feare of mistaking the worde in a wrong sense And nothing is better in such abuse of the office and name and varietie doubtfulnesse of speech in my opinion then to followe the simplicitie of the Scriptures and to keepe the phrase and maner of speeche vsed of the holy 〈◊〉 in all sinceritie especially seeing properly to speake the office of an Euangelist and of a Bishop Bee distinct and two seuerall offices but let that goe The holy Churche functions instituted by our Sauiour Christe and in the Scriptures recommended vnto vs for to continue ordinarie Ministeries among vs as Preaching Pastours which are sometime called Bishops or Ouerseers somtime otherwise Teachers Elders Deacons doe we receiue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 uerence as becōmeth Your vnder orders w t your sacrificing Priesthood as deuised by men doe I not see howe our Churche is tyed vnto nor why it should be Our Ministers that preache the Gospell heere besides the inwarde assurance of God his sending after they be called haue their admission with imposition of handes and prayer and that publikely in the face of the Churche with the approbation 〈◊〉 being first examined 〈◊〉 their giftes serue thē for that office and testimonie being giuen for their honest life and behauiour This is more religiously doone and is more agreeable to the Apostles doctrine to Timothie admonition by you here alleadged then your Ceremonious doing is as their office is better groūded on God his booke then yours Court thē you lay men or call them so as much and as long as yee list The summe is you doe but goe about with slaunder to deceiue the simple The third particular faulte of our God his seruice is alleadged to bee this that wee haue diuers falle and blasphemous thinges therein saith this Papists blasphemous mouth so placed as they may seeme to be very scripture hee giueth example in the ende of a certaine Geneua Psalme as lyingly hee speaketh like himselfe You papists haue a poore spight at that 〈◊〉 Citie Geneua to cal that a Geneua Psalme whiche I thinke was neuer saide songe nor heard in Geneua And I am sure the Psalmes beeing printed in English meeter at Geneua and there songue when there was an Englishe congregation assembled there in time of our persecution this Canticle was not in the booke nor knowne of nor any but Dauid his Psalmes Besides this is not neither euer was any part of the seruice heere vsed But beeing since made by a godly man after the Psalmes by the Printer set in y e end of the booke w t the Authour his name according to his discretion wherein I wishe for mine owne part Printers tooke not themselues so much libertie especially in these matters and if that may appease or content and winne you to the professiō of Christ his Gospel to tell you mine opinion I would not care if both that and all other songues besides Dauid his Psalmes and Scriptures Were layde aside and 〈◊〉 out of our congregations Wee haue not to answere for euery particular man his fact Howebeit the thing is 〈◊〉 so much disliked of by you for that it is not Scripture for then would you dislike your owne seruice a great deale more but because your corrupt religion is therein touched and namely your God the Pope this is 〈◊〉 griefe but not iust Syr. Yee cannot like that we haue the scriptures in our Church assemblies yee cannot like that is not scriptures though it bee godly and not against the Scriptures in any part Sumine liking or disliking all must bee as liketh you Wee pray yee say to God to keepe vs from Pope Turke and Papistrie And why not Can we lightly pray to be kept from worser thinges than from these mischieuous breakenecks of mens soules Of Papistrie I haue said enough through this whole booke what in deed it is what mē shall find it to be if 〈◊〉 call it to good iust tryal And y e 〈◊〉 at this day seeth thāks be to God wel enough thereinto sauing a certaine that are and needes will be wilfully obstinate and blinde Concerning that your Pope is ioyned with the Turke the match we say is 〈◊〉 fit they may well drawe both in one yoke sauing that if there be any difference or oddes the Pope is y e worse because he doth not only persecute and slay with the sworde as the Turke but slaieth moe and more cunningly by persuasion of word not God his worde and Scripture 〈◊〉 graunt but his owne dreames glosed and vnder pretence as appeareth in you that are his Imps come from him for that purpose You are very readie to lay blasphemie to the charge of others we
goeth about to reckon your Popes decretall epistles in the number of Canonicall scriptures and to racke in Augustines authoritie to prooue that matter I thinke this geare and the like maye better and more iustly be accoūted of vs blasphemie against god thē our praiers to be kept frō the Pope and his infection of papistry But to conclude this point there is you say falshoode and blasphemie in our seruice and we sing and cause to be sung as though it were scripture and one of Dauids Psalmes a prayer made by man wherein wee haue seene howe you fayle and faulte greatly and yet can finde no vngodlinesse much lesse blasphemie in that prayer But were it sung as yee say what I pray you that are so precise and hard with vs were there therein done more than in your Popishe mattens How is your Te Deum made by man no scripture distinguished from Benedictus that is the holy Ghostes hymne and scripture You had neede then mend your owne seruice before you finde such fault with other Agayne whither will you leade and bring vs from this seruice that you seeme to finde fault with You had not neede bring vs to your Popish blasphemous seruice For then haue we made but an euill change You had neede to bring vs to a seruice voyde of all note of falshoode and blasphemy that charge ours so there with and are so squaymish and precise that you cannot abide our seruice It were too long vpon this occasion throughly to examine your Popish seruice yet let vs take a viewe in this matter that is in prayer and singing of Psalines and giue you for one example two Thomas Becket a naughtie proude Prelate is made a Saint and a Martyr by you hath his holy day and seruice Is not this among the rest a blasphemous praier with you By the bloode of Thomas which for thee he did spend make vs Christ to climbe whither Thomas did ascend If this geare be not blasphemous I knowe not what is For to leaue the making of a proude trayterous Prelate to his king a Saint to ordayne seruice c to Creatures in steede of the Creator To talke also of Thomas ascending to heauen what is it to desire Christ to bring vs to heauen by the blood of Thomas but by Idolatrie and blasphemie to staine Gods glory and to iniurie Christes merits and withall to delude and abuse Gods people Is not moreouer this verse sung by you in your Temples continually as it were out of one of Dauids Psalmes Viduam eius benedicens benedicam c I set downe the Latin because you sing it in Latin crauing herein pardon of the Reader and yet take it as I finde it corruptly and yet woorse translated in your English Primer printed here in former Popish daies that yee had beene as good haue left the ignorant people the Latin Primer alone and Beades still as to haue abused them with so corrupt an English translation Thus hath it the popish english Primer that I saw at the writing hereof distinguishing full ylfauouredlye the verses and disioyning the wordes that are to be ioyned together For the more plainenes I will set downe two verses This is my resting place for euermore Heere shall I dwell for I haue chosen it with blessing The widowe of it I shall blyke the poore people of it I shall fullfyll with breade False translation false printing false singing false saying All false and nothing but false agree well enough together and with a false religion The best in the worlde and therfore belike being admonished and called vppon for amendment you let it stande still such is your reforming and amending of thinges deforming and making them euer woorse and woorse The next fault you charge our seruice with is the lack of necessary thinges which it should haue in it Yee take example of a mans reciting of the Creede or Articles of the Beliefe If you leaue out one article as in effecte the Protestants say you doe the Article of descention into Hell all the whole Creede were naught thereby I aske you first what if I adde an Article more as you Papists doe whē you aske men how they beleeue in the Sacrament of the Alter c. Is not that as great a fault Next for answeare I report me to all the world whether we in effect or otherwise leaue out that Article Descended into hell in the Creede or teaching the people to recite it We bid or wishe them to leaue y t article out The creed or articles of y e beliefe are daily twise a day publikely recited in the Congregation by the Minister and the people in the mother tongue At morning and euening prayer Is not this article of descending into hell at both times expressed Looke vpon the booke come to Church and heare Wherfore you are a very slanderer heere in as you are euer But sir is all the Creede naught if that article be left out or any other How say you then to the creed of that famous general councel of Nice which leaueth out the Article of descending into hell that I say nothing of other partes of the Creede How say you to the like Creed in the first Councell at Constantinople How to Athanasius Creede that leaueth out these wordes Crucifyed Deade Buried c I trowe you will not condemne these formes of the Creed or Beliefe to prooue your saying true It were better you and your saying too should bee found false and faulty as you be heerein thē accuse so godly ancient forms of Beleife but to come neerer to you What say you to your owne seruice and the chiefest part thereof in your estimation If this be a fault prooue y e whole naught Thē is your masse naught your masse creed euē for this respect for you cannot finde Descended into hell in your Masse Creed nor died neyther nor yet the communion of Saintes And yet for all this is it among the rest of the best that is in your Masse It would be too long particularly to examine your propiciatorie sacrifice of the Masse which is a newe crucifiyng of Christ agayne as much as in you lyeth of which argument I speake a little after where you repeate and mention your Masse sacrifice againe and extoll it to the skie it is your precious Iewell your popish priesthood and priests finagogues or tēples aultars priests apparel vestments Sen sors Franckinsens c. which you here reckon vp and wee you say lacke in deede we doe so And we thanke God therefore sauing that we haue those which you cal temples wherin we 〈◊〉 for the exercises of our religion which are therfore called Churches with vs because Gods church and peo ple meete there the rest you bring no scriptures for which in steede of all that ye alleage is the foundation of our christian religion so called of Christ. Priests ye say and all were 〈◊〉 for
by your doctrine And one looke well it will not be harde to finde nine and moe too so shall we haue no ende nor keepe any measure if wee followe you herein Your seuen sacraments as you recken them heere are these Baptisme Confirmation Priesthood Matrimonie Extreme vnction Penance the sacrament of the Altar The grace of Baptisme you leaue vntouched not deniyng but wee enioye it moe of your 〈◊〉 for sacramentes of Christes Church properly to speake doe not wee acknowledge But in steed of your counterfaite sacrament and Idol of the Altar wee haue restored vnto vs the sacrament of the Lords Supper or of the body and blood of Christ instituted by this our good master him selfe As for mariage we esteeme it honourable among all and a bed vndefiled as the Apostle speaketh and say with him on the other side that whore mongers and adulterers God will iudge So then wee repute it as the institution of the holy God and his order to liue in according to his worde in his feare A sacrament as holy Baptisme and the Supper are doe we not repute it to be none depende therein on your doctrine In steede of your 〈◊〉 Priesthood haue wee among vs such Church 〈◊〉 as Christ also hath left vs by his institution and worde as namely Pastours or Ministers of the worde and Gospell In stead of your dumbe ceremonies and Popishe confirmation haue we a continuall Catechising of the youth and ruder sort in the principles of Religion As for your extreeme vnction we shut it out as a thing deuised by your selues for saint Iames place maketh nothing for you If priesthood be a sacrament the other orders lesse and great will claime the like priuiledge euery one so shall we haue a great many moe particular sacramentes in number than seuen and euery one in kinde seuerally from other the sacrament of 〈◊〉 the sacrament of subdeaconship of reading also of exorcisme or coniuring c. Where and when shall we crie ho and stay As euery one here can tell you wee haue visitation of the sicke counsaile and prayers with him and for him to his comfort as the rule of Charitie prescribeth Repentance is continually taught here and perswaded publike confession of sinnes is made in our assemblies vnto God dayly The power and authoritie of binding and loosmg or the keyes as you speake of the church are heere by the ministerie of the worde and preaching as occasion serueth more faithfully and vprightly vsed then with you In steade of your Ashewednesday ashes and displing on mens bare heades and womens bare hands c. we haue some forme of publike discipline and correction though not such and so perfect as were to be wished Nowe let the Godly iudge of the gaine that you bragge is to bee had by the profession of your popishe religion and haunting your Antichristian Synagogue and the losse that you imagine is to be had in the profession of the Gospel and our religion ro in haunting our Church assemblyes you that are blynded partiall and take no tryall of our Church meetinges no maruel though ye corruptly iudge of the whole For the authoritie of the true Church of Christ there is no greate strife betweene vs there is more for your Pope and Popish prelates and Clergie for their appropriating and abusing of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for taking away the key of knowledge neyther entring themselues forbidding them that came in Sauing that euen in the Churches authoritie wee denie that our 〈◊〉 Christ did at his departure as you speake heere leaue all his authoritie with his Church which he had receiued of his father hee hath not resigned his authoritie to any he liueth raigneth and continually guideth and gouerneth his Churche himselfe prouiding for the same as our onely king high priest lawegiuer prince of pastours so forth after a farre better manner than any mortall man can or will performe that office yetin the meane while hee hath appointed vnder him offices and officers such as he thought requisite keeping the Soueraigntie in the Church still to himselfe of which offices and officers yee may see to the Romanes Corinthians Ephesians c. Whose offices are limitted and bounded so as they may not goe without their compasse That which you confesse Christ to haue giuen to his Church let no man take from the Church Let no creature vsurpe ouer the same keep well to the Church that ye here speake of the Churches authoritie Concerning Confession in that place which ye 〈◊〉 out of the Acts or out of your Gratian rather as appeareth you put in of your selfe that they came to the Apostles it is not in the text though your Gratian haue it there was none of the Apostles there but Paul that wee reade of to whomsoeuer the confession was made it was publique as of the fruites it is reported that immediatly many whiche vsed curious artes brought their bookes and burned them before all men You cite vs a long place out of a bastardely booke cast for credite vpon Augustines backe for the former place maketh nothing for auricular confession And yet woulde I the learned reader woulde conferre Gratian and you together from whome you tooke this but you thought good more strongly to confirme it with Hob Nobs authoritie of whom for answere I say as that learned man in his Censor before the same booke sayth A Praters talke neither learned wise nor eloquēt what faces or minds had they y t put vpon vs such writings in Augustines name For the matter of your forged Auricular cōfession to a Ghostly Father that is a popish Priest and so foorth you might haue found that your owne doctors agree not some thinking confession with the mouth to man not necessary for forgiuenes of sinnes some thinking otherwise and good authorities are by your M. Gratian that mooueth the question alleadged against y t kinde of cōfession how euer you doctorlike decide the matter to the contrary as though all the world must goe with you one way that is a Popish way Doeth not your he owne glose vpon Gratian where he bringeth in mens authorities to proue confession as he doth also against it say alleadgeth meaning Gratian for the other parte to witte that sinne is not forgiuen one of yeeres of discretion without confession of the mouth whiche yet sayth the Glosse is false For our Churches doctrine in the matter of confession of sinnes though we condemne your 〈◊〉 order and the butcherly straitnes of reckoning vp all our sinnes particularly in the priestes eare c. Yet with the scriptures wee teach and exhort men to acknowledge their faultes one to another And where either the church publikely or any man priuately is offended there for reconcilement we teach that it is necessary not onely that ones fault bee acknowledged but farder testimonie also giuen of repentance and sorrowe
It wil make you sweate and your shoulders ake too before you will be able to remoue these two blockes If you possible stumble at them and breake your shinnes thanke your selfe of your hurt who are more busie with them then you neede be Obedience yea and protestation of obedience to her Maiestie and her wholesome lawes in this behalfe aggrawateth the sinne rather then diminisheth it you say although I thinke there bee none that hath so little regarde to his Soules health as to goe to Church ouelie for obedience sake and not of a religious minde also He that thinketh it is naught to speake against the Pope at Paules Crosse which is your example though you call it rayling thinketh therein amisse and therefore being commanded if occasion serue therto shall do well to obey and doe it redressing his former foolish thinking which too absurdly still you make conscience when it is indeede but a fancie and a dreame tel vs it is Pilats case as much as lōg as you wil we wil 〈◊〉 bid you prooue it Your pope is not Christ fir nor the clearing or condemning of him the like doing to Pilats with Christ there is great oddes in the case Of pretended conscience c. I think I haue said enough and of the foolish and wicked band of a naughtie and erroneous conscience whereof you talke Prooue stil I bid you or hold your peace that haunting our churches is naught though you suppose it that is imagin and dreame so We that by experience finde and knowe the contrary can not graunt it you Obedience to her maiestie and protestation thereof in haunting holie church assemblies here authorised by law maketh the sinne greater Disobedience to her maiestie her godly lawes herein disloyalty rebelliō treason c. not onely diminish the subiectes faulte towardes their prince but is a vertue with you it is a confession of your popish catholike faith Obediēce to your pope to a prelate in a naughtie thing to your church euē against cōscience excuseth I haue giuē exāples a tast before this is your religiō cōscience After this fighting as you do stil w t your own shadow you make an obiection of your owne and answere it at pleasure And because you like not to single the matter it is your own word you huddle you shuffle double iūbling vp thinges full euell fauouredly together For reckoning how manie thinges are conteined in going to Church you bring us forth some that we acknowledge but diuers and very manie of your owne deuising which we iustlie reiect and 〈◊〉 as our answere before doth sufficiently declare Single things therfore I pray you seuer distinguish betweene good and bad one and the other better then you here doe or else keepe your annexes as you call them to sporte your selfe withall defend your obstinacie by word by writinges by imprisonment or as you will make al the world know your sturres and gaze vpon you to please your selues therein as much as lyketh you yet shall it be obstinacie stil say and doe what you can the more the matter commeth into trial the lesse credit and vauntage hath it of your side The conscience of the Catholike that thinketh he doth naught in haunting our Church assemblies is diuelish and dangerous as we haue seene the explanation of the church as you call it that is of the popish route and antichristian stuagogue is like to y t imagined conscience you labour hard to bring the church assemblies here into discredit You tel vs of the holding vp of a finger onely How vnlawfull it were in this case you adde such is your modestie a similitude of lifting vp but of a straw to the diuell in token of obedience which you say is as much as if one did word by word deny his creed But I weene not there is a differēce in the greatnes betweene sinne and sinne all sinnes are not equall Afterward of courtesie and grace you make vs foure qualificatiōs as you term thē which may make going to church lawful by the iudgement of your diuines meere particular knowne temporall busines How gingerly and nicely you walke in the matter These conditions added to going to church make it al one you say as not to go to church at al. You so prophane it as it is no better in your opinion then 〈◊〉 of the market or some like worldly busines which exercise is good enough for those of your religiō if you leaue but such a going to church as is al one with not going at al then may I shortly answer you as good neuer a whit as neuer the better In that which followeth in this third conclusion of Naaman the Sirian you so handle the matter as I know not whether you make his fact sinne or no if he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what needed he to seeke pardon at God his hande purchasing the same frō the prophet to be obtained by his praier If he sinned what tolleration could the prophet giue him therin For our case there is no difficultie therefore I omit it without further discussion your expositiō of y e whole In the fourth and last conclusion that you gather supposing lalfhood still you shewe your self very precise against our God his seruice for you say a man may not yeeld in any one little point therein which you would further ground vpon an other conclusion also If all be not lawfull then no part of it is lawful which groūd of yours how you can proue better then y t rest if you be put therto I wote not but I think hardly enough Neuerthelesse I now put you not vnto that labour you haue enough to doe alreadie and more then will euer be well done or cleared we must admit supposition for any thing you haue yet sayd I see not why our exercises in 〈◊〉 may not be thought lawful cōmēdable godly also For the general doctrine you here deliuer vs that God accepteth no particion no mayme in our seruice but eyther al or none must be his that we must walke with an vpright heart before him in roundnes of conscience without limitation dissimulatiō or haulting sticking precisely 〈◊〉 his holy law and commandements it is most true and as a heauenlye trueth so wee receiue it But the whole is verye badlye applied to your popish diuels seruice The textes of scripture that you cite talke of the sinceritie of God his seruice of his law and of his commandements c. Holde you there keepe to his holy word and we shall agree but you doe not you will not you may not you can not your false suppositiō deceiueth you there is a way saith the wife man that seemeth right to a man but the yssues therof are the wayes of death O y t the word of y t Lord in religion in life in gods matters in ours euery where euery way might be a lātern to our feet to be cōtinually caried
2. Cor. 1. 1. Ioan. 5. Aug. li. de do chri ca. 10. c lib. 1. ca. 40. Rom. 14. Acts of religion not to be inforced Vide di Tho. om doc 2. 2. q. de side Heretikes may be in forced Cy. de Ex. Mart. cap. 5. Ieron ca. 5. ad Ephe. Optat. lib. 3. contra Dona. Aug. li. I. con Parm. cap. 7. Leo ep 67. 91. Greg. li. ep 32 Ber. ser. 66. 〈◊〉 Cant. Aug. lib. 2. retract ca. 5. epist. 48. 50. Fol. 17. Haynous sin to enforce another man to do against his conscience How they did in Q. M. time compell men Looke Fol. 54. 58. One only 〈◊〉 true and all other 〈◊〉 Fol. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God hir testimonie concurring with mās knowledge maketh conscience Called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 One father caleth conscience the light of our vnderstanding 〈◊〉 other otherwise Tit. 1. 〈◊〉 1. Tim. 4. 2. Ephes. 4. 19. 1. Tim. 1. 19. Looke 〈◊〉 15. 2. 3. 12. c. Heb. 9. 14. Act. 15. 9. Rom. 9. 1. Gala. 5. 7. 8. 9. 10. Looke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 13. Item Concil Toletan 28. 91. par 1. par Ex 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quod contra 〈◊〉 fit 〈◊〉 ad 〈◊〉 D. Tho. in Comentar in 14 ad Ro. 1. 2. 〈◊〉 19 Art 5. Omnis voluntas discordans a ratione siuerecta siue errante semper est mala Arist. 〈◊〉 lib. 7 〈◊〉 13. Lib. 4. dist 30. Caus. 29. 9. 〈◊〉 glos ibidem Holcot Mai. 〈◊〉 super lib. 3. 〈◊〉 1. Art 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 6 〈◊〉 Dc quo ipsa 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 habere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Implicita 〈◊〉 Explicita Lib. 4. 〈◊〉 distinct 30 29. 〈◊〉 Lib. 4. Senten distinct 38. Hug. 4. sētent cap. 4. Lib 4. senten distinct 30. caus 29. q. 1. 34. C. Si Virgo Ignorantia excusat eum qui nesciens dormiuit cū sorore vxotis suae 1. 2. q. 19. Art 6. Q c. Illud relarum par par ex vtraque See the defence of the Apologie part 4. cap. 1. divis 1. Harding in his detection Si non castè tamcu cautè S. Paul being demaunded we must suppose whether this Thomas had attained to his meaning in his Cōmentaries in vision answered him yea as much as mans sight can conceiue the Crucifixe also answe red thou hast writtten well of mee Thomas the church beleueth and sayeth so It is as true as the Gospell with Papistes Distinct. 13. Bonauentur Summa Angelica c. Augustin D. Thomas 1. 2. Q. 19. Art 5. Glose in dist 13. c. Summa Angelica de casibus conscienciae 1 Pet. 2. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Erasmus in vita August De consecra distinct 5. discipulosin glosa Rob. Holcot super senten lib. 3. q. 1. art 5.00 1. Doyng contrary to 〈◊〉 conscience is sume 2. Doyng according to erronious conscience is not 〈◊〉 Glose in distinct 13. 〈◊〉 are Heretikes Patriarches sayth Tertussian against Her mogenes 〈◊〉 rome c. Luk. 1. 74. 75. 2. Cor. 5. 17. Rom. 3. 11 12. c. 1. Cor. 1. 19. Esai 29. 14. Rom. 8. 6. 7. Iere. 10. 23. Prou. 16. 2. 21. 2. Psal. 119. Iud. 7. 3. Prou. 20. 24. Gen. 6. 5. 8. 21. Psal. 94 11. 1. Cor. 3. 20. Ierem. 17. 9. 〈◊〉 in 2. Tim. 1. bom 2. 〈◊〉 in 1. Tim 1. 〈◊〉 5. Idem 〈◊〉 5. 〈◊〉 1. Tim. in 〈◊〉 verba 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Satana vt 〈◊〉 non 〈◊〉 Chrisost. in 12. Ioan Hom. 65. lib. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Aristo li. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Recta ratio mens 〈◊〉 Orandum vt sit mens sana in corpore sano c. Mat. 6. 22 23. Luke 11. 36. Psal. 4. 7. 1. 2. q. 19. art 4. 1. Cor 2. 9. 10 Quot capita tot sensus Quot bomines tot 〈◊〉 Stoikes Peripatetikes Academikes Epicures c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mat. 16. 17. Rom. 1. 21. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Pro. 12. 15. Vim vi repellere you know what it meaneth Math. 5. 38. 39. 40. 41. 44. c. Rom. 12. 17. 19. c. Iam. 1. 17. Iohn 5. 39. Mar. 12. 14. Christom in Gen. cap. 5. Hom. 2. 2 Cor. 1. 3. 3. 〈◊〉 Cor. 4. 3. 〈◊〉 5. 〈◊〉 Ioh. 3. 19. 20. 21. looke S. Paul Ephe. 3. 12. De doct chri lib. cap. 10. lib. 1. cap. 40. 〈◊〉 Tit. 15. Aug. de doct chri lib. 1. cap. 40. D. Thom. 1. 2 q. 19. arr 4. Vnius vna est regula mēsura Tomo 3. Senten excerpt ex August 28. q. 1. 〈◊〉 Augu. de Ciuitate Dei 〈◊〉 10. cap. 23. 1. Tim. I. 4. 7. 6. 4. 5. 20. 2. Tim. 2. 16. 23. Tit. 3. 9. ep Treatise Fol. 57. pag. 2. Rom. 14. 23. Quod. enim exfide non est peccatum est That according to his conscience hoc est secundum conscientiam As S. 〈◊〉 expoundeth it c. saith Gregorie Martin whence possible all or the most of this stuffe was fetched by your Authour and you 1. 2. q. 19. Art 5. Discernere Verbum forense Iam. 〈◊〉 6. Trea. Fol. 40. Page 2. Esay 42. 3. Math. 12. 20 Tit. 1. 15. 1. King 3. 26 Sect. 6. 2. 2. q. 10. 〈◊〉 8. AdVincen sium contra epistolā Parmeniani ad Bonifacium episto 50. In. 4. distinct 4. quest 9. vltim Conc. Tolet. Iohn Scot. vt super Distin. 45. ca. de Iudaeis Rom. 13. Esai 49. 23. Daniel 7. 27 Lawlesse proceeding Tertulliā de virginibus velandis Extrav Ioan 22 Cum inter in 〈◊〉 Credere Dominum Deum 〈◊〉 Papam non potuisse statuere prout statuit 〈◊〉 censeretur c. Luke 11. 21. 22 Arnob. taduersus Gent. lib. 2. religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanda sed nu mine nec colere qua die sed quid 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 intueri c. Aug. in quest Vet Nov. Test. quest 114. 〈◊〉 de Tractat Prelat Cap. quarto Abbas Clemens de Sent reiudicat Past oralis 2. Q. 6. Decreto Decretal lib. primo De translat Episc. 〈◊〉 7. Ca. 2 3. in Gloss. c. Looke Ierem. 7. Mat. 21. 33. c. Luke 19. 12. 14. 15. 27. Psalm 14. 2. Pet. 1. 19. Thucidides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The present state euer lightly mistiked 2. Cor. 10. 2. Eph. 6. 17. Hebru 4. 12. 1. King 20. I 〈◊〉 An humble demande of disputation Almar Philpot. Haddon Elmer c. Cranmer Ridley Latimer 24. Q. 1. Non afferamus ex Hiero. Cicero in 〈◊〉 Maior Proueniebant Oratores noui 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Tim. 1. 4. 6. 4. 5. 4. 7. 2. Tim. 2. 16. 23. c. Three waies 〈◊〉 conference 1. part cap. 6. diuision 1. 6. part cap. 8. diuision 2. F. De iurisdi omnium iudicum Non ab re quoque puta uimus esse omnes qui in hereses quas cunque lapsi sunt adhuc irretiti sunt ad penitenti am inuitare cum salui conductus ampla concessione ac promissione magnae sin gularis clemē tiae benigni tatis modo re deant