WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures they may answere the same which we doe for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine may professe that all cities village◠〈◊〉 which were religous were seasoned with their doctrine for in the Apostles time all Churches all cities all townes euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe After that by little and little the purity of doctrine n DVR Tell me then from whom and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift that we may see it hath moued though we cannot discerne the mouing of it so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall but the time when and the manner how they were brought in is not much to our purpose And it were too long to tell all yet heare some Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops thâ—ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice but he was repressed by the African Councell Then Gregory the great greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist Lastly Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide And since that hee grew to that height that hee made not only Churches and Kings but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete But see another example Time was when there were no images in Churches As that of Epiphanius proueth who rent a vaile in peeces because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint But in time they were receiued into the Church but no honor giuen them yet after that good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did whom he thus checketh for it In that you forbad them to be worshipped wee commend you but that you brake them we reprehend you Gregor regist lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed that they were not to be broken yea that they were religiously to be worshipped And thus hath it succeeded in other things as S. Paul did foretellâ—e saying The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke 2. Thess 2.7 began to be corrupted and diuers superstitions spread far and neare though the holy Fathers did as much as they could resist 2. Thess 2.7 vntill that mystery of iniquitie which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time spread it selfe o DVR VVhat can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously when he did so â—â—â—ell of a departing and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church by all the parts of the Church and at length possessed it wholy Yet Antichrist that man of sinne could neuer preuaile so farre but a great multitude of the Saints remained and those whose names were written in the booke of life did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked superstitions of Antichrist For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it yet many were euer found who worshipped the God of their Fathers and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie And this can histories of all times witnesse which I could now recite if it were needful and reckon vp to you many houses villages townes cities and countries where Christ had many and populous Churches The p DVR This is very false for in the FloreÌ„tine Councell the Emperour Paleolus together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ and imbraced the Romane faith yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes or vvhy obey they not the Pope why came they not to the Councell of Trent the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue theÌ„ subiect to him but they stil coÌ„temne him to his no small griefe It is true the Emperour the Patriarke and a multitude of Bishops came to the FloreÌ„tine CouÌ„cel They agreed vvith theÌ„ in many things â—â—â—hers they dissented your TraÌ„substantiation they vtterly renouÌ„ced At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a nevv election They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople See you not hovv vvell they agree I haue a booke of yours not of Ieremies neither vvill a small thing make me beleeue it is his for both the Grecianâ— and particularly he hath giuer great approbation of our Churches as vve find it in his vvorkes published both in Greeke and Latin Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church and it is 〈◊〉 opposite to you as euer our Church was And yet you so forge these things as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection Vntill that vnhappy Monke as you say by his incestâ—â—â—â— marriage had defloured a Nunne dedicated to God by 〈◊〉 soleâ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 or vntill that quarrelling Swâ—â—â— had câ—â—spired against his country or that infamous â—â—â—â—gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Geâ—â—â—â— So Campian go on to raile and reuile euery good man powre out the gall of your bitternes seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them Luthers name is written in the book of life and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him It is a true saying that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne you call him Monke your selfe is but a Frier now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers But he by incestuous marriage deâ—â—oured 〈◊〉 Nomâ—â—â— dedicated to God by solemne vow q DVR But you goe against S. Paul who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry hauing broken their first saith which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstaÌ„deth by that faith the vow of virginity Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes whom he perswadeth to marry should be taken into that office only such as were threescore yeares old who may well abstaine from marriages follow this calling Now if they be not of this age he sheweth
with more words You make hast to the Sacraments Of the Sacraments And I will pursue you as much hast as you make Now here you cry on t most pittifully O blessed Christ they haue left neuer a Sacrament not two not one Dare you appeale to Christ whose Sacraments yee haue banished with great reproch out of the Church that ye might bring in certaine impure Sacraments not worthy to be named we retaine those Sacraments which Christ hath commended to vs if there had been need of more he would haue left more We haue two Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords Supper these Christ did institute p DVR Our seuen Sacraments stand vpon good ground and reason hath antiquitie for them WHIT. pag. 643. You should then produce some antiquitie for the proofe of them but hauing none why do you so brag of it I wonder not at your sileÌ„ce because I know that that this number was neuer heard of before Hugo de Sancto Victore and Peter Lombard brought them into the Church and yet for them Lombard neuer gathered any testimony of auncient Fathers Neither euer any Councell before the Florentine Councell did approue or establish this number But your fiue bastard Sacraments 1. Order 2. Confirmation 3. Extreame Vnction 4. Penance 5. Marriage I proue thus to be no true SacrameÌ„ts of Christs Church 1. In euery SacrameÌ„t is necessarily required and elemeÌ„t or visible matter But that neither your Order not CoÌ„firmation nor Penance nor Marriage haue by any warrant of Scripture 2. Those which are the proper SacrameÌ„ts of the Church Christ did institute But Christ instituted not any one of those fiue for Sacraments 3. Sacraments belong to all Christians But your Order and Marriage pertaine to a few in comparison 4. Seeing you faine that grace lyeâ—h hid in the Sacraments and is by them transmitted vnto men proue vs which parts of these Sacraments do containe the grace inclosed What answere soeuer you make you will be taken napping Therefore these fiue bastard Sacraments are no true Sacraments of Christs Church these the auncient Church acknowledge and with these the later Church ought to haue been contented For that it is most euident that for seuen Sacraments for so many you hold that not a footstep of antiquity can be found O blessed Christ they haue seuen SacrameÌ„ts yet they haue no SacrameÌ„t because they haue not thine For those Sacraments which are not thine are no Sacraments at all Their bread say you is poison and what is our wine but the common people among you taste not of that at all belike lest they should thinke that you did drinke to them of a poison Wee doe vse that bread and that wine in the Lords Supper which Christ himselfe commanded to vse That which hee deliuered we haue receiued that which he did we do in the bread and wine we celebrate the remembrance of our Redeemer If those were wholesome ours cannot bee deadly Baptisme say you although it be as yet among them true notwithstanding in their iudgement it is nothing You your self coÌ„fesse that our Baptisme is trueâ— I take it for granted But why is it true because wee baptize so as Christ hath commanded vs. We keepe the law of Christ we throw your I know not q DVR What is that you call trash vvhich of the auncient Fathers haue been vvho haue not made mention of our ceremonies WHIT. pag. 658. Christ coÌ„maunded nothing to the Church touching these trifles though we reade often of Baptisme in the word of many yet there is no word touching any of these Shall we then thinke that the Church in later times hath knowne better vvhat ceremonies vvere fitter for the Sacrament then Christ and his Apostles vvhere did euer any of them vse salt spittle candles c. in this Sacrament what trash away the like haue we done in the other Sacrament not haue wee departed a nailes bredth from Christs precept If ours be true Baptisme then is out r DVR VVhen bread and vvine is your Eucharist neither doe you beleeue Christ gaue any other thing in the Supper vvee leaue you your Eucharist also WHIT. pag. 660. If wee haue true Baptisme why not the Eucharist wee follow Christs commandement in both Further you falsely accuse vs who thinke bread wine to be but one part of the Sacrament as Ireneus and antiquity hath done Christ his body and blood the other But you haue no Eucharist at all who professe you haue neither bread nor wine Eucharist true also But in their iudgement say you it is nothing Why so It is not the water of saluation it is not the conduit of grace it doth not deriue the merits of Christ into vt but only it is a signification of saluation All these things are feined false For we preach it to be the sauing water and a Å¿ DVR But Caluin denieth all this making it only a signe and seale by vvhich vve are assured of the grace bestâ—â—ed vpon vs. WHIT. pag. 663. Doth it follow hence that grace and remission of sinne is not giuen vnto vs in Baptisme As if by the seale of the Kings Charter some thing is not both giuen vnto vs and confirmed And in Baptisme this confirmation is but a more bountifull donation chanell of grace and we doubt not but it deriueth Christs merits into vs. For it doth not only signifie saluation but also it performeth bringeth it indeed to them that vse Baptisme aright and holily For in Baptisme we receiue forgiuene of our sinnes we are accepted into the familie of Christ we are endowed with the holy Ghost we are raised vp to a most certaine hope of euerlasting life Are these matters of nothing to you Campian shall this Baptisme be nothing wherin we obteine so many and so great good things but what manner of thing is your Baptisme or what hath it more which ours ought to haue hath it grace or the merits of Christ or saluation Ours also hath these things what then is wanting in it why it should not be true both in ours and others iudgement I know your meaning It conueigheth not grace by the worke wrought This indeed is a magicall and pestilent deuice that you should thinke t DVR VVe thinke not so but that it is in it as in an instrument And so hath Thomas taught WHIT. pag. 664. Then you reiect and condemne all your old Sophisters who haue taught that grace is included in the Sacrament as health is in a medicine or salue For as that doth cure the disease whether he beleeue or no that is sicke only if he take it so the Sacrament doth giue grace without any faith or good motion of the receiuer so he hath no mortall sinne to hinder it grace to be inclosed in the water it selfe as it were in a pipe which sheadeth it self forth into all men though quite void of faith For what auaileth the Sacrament
256. nota 68 A belieuing man may haue remission of his sinnes though the Minister who pronounceth it intend no such thing pag. 256 69 It is not the dutie of the Minister of the Gospell to reade prayers by the houre but to giue diligence to reading exhortation and doctrine pag. 257 70 Christians are bound to obey the lawes of Magistrates but are freed from the religion of them Their particular lawes binde not the conscience though men must obey their gouernment for conscience sake pag. 267. â—58 nota The summe of the ninth Answere touching the sophismes of the Aduersarie 1 Iesuits be chiefe Sophisters and kings of all other in the kingdome of Poperie pag. 263 2 The sophismes of the Papists by which they would ouerthrow the marriage of Ministers and Deacons pag. 264 3 Pope Innocent thought marriage dutie to be an vnholy thing ibid. nota 4 Their sophismes for the Popes supremacie and his excellencie aboue the Emperor that he is not to be reprooued that he cannot erre pag. 265. 266. 267 5 Though one Pastor haue rule ouer one flocke it followeth not one must haue ouer all ibid. nota 6 Their sophismes for priuat Masse the Priests communicating alone that the people must haue onely one part pag. 267 7 Their sophismes that prayers must bee in an vnknowne 〈◊〉 us that the people may not reade the Scriptures pag. 268 8 Their sophismes that the bread is Christs bodie and that it is to be worshipped that election is for merit ibid. 9 Their sophismes that the sicke should bee anoynted that marriage is a sacrament That a Monkish life is warrantable by the examples of Elias and Iohn Baptist but it is vnsound pag. 269. nota 10 Their sophismes that there are seuen Sacraments that images must be set vp in Churches That we are iustified by charitie and not by faith ibid. 11 Their sophismes that men haue free will that Christ deliuered the Fathers out of Lambus that the authoritie of the Church is aboue the Scripture pag. 270 12 Their sophismes that all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation That men passe thorough the fire of Purgatorie to eternall life pag. 271 13 The place 2. Thes 2.15 doth not establish traditioÌ„s ibid. nota 14 The 1. Cor. 3.15 doth not prooue Purgatorie ibid. nota 15 Some sophismes of Campians ibid. 16 It is no sophisme from the commendation of mariage to ouerthrow the vow of virginitie pag. 272 17 The Prelates haue spoken most basely and impiously of mariage like to the ancient Heretikes pag. 273 18 They prefer virginitie before it without any Scripture and yet they make it a Sacrament and virginitie none pag. 272. nota 19 Mariage is honourable in all and impure in to degree pag. 273 20 Protestats vse no sophisme in disputing against merits ibid. 21 Papists teach that their merits dipped in Christs blood doth merit saluation that is that Christ hath merited by his blood that men might merit saluation pag. 274 22 That good works cannot merit is proued ibid. nota pag. 275 23 Neither Angels can nor Adam could merit any thing ibid. nota 24 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against worship of Saints ibid. 25 Saints are not to be worshipped or prayed vnto 275. nota 26 Duraeus saith the Saints are in farre distant places at once 276. nota 27 Papists blasphemies touching the Virgin Mary ibid. 28 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against the Masse and Purgatorie 277 29 Neither Masse nor Purgatorie is to be found in the scripture neither the names nor the things are there ibid. 30 In the Supper thâ—re was no sacrifice neither now can be nor vnbloodie sacrifice 278. nota 31 There is neither the name nor the office of a Priest in the new Testament appropriated to any one kinde of men 279 32 There is no sacrifice in the Gospell but that which is common to all to offer 280 33 The Church hath lawfull power to chuse her Ministers 280 nota 34 The Papists choise of meate and their set daies of fasting are ridiculous and superstitious 281 35 The examples of Elisha Daniel and Iohn Baptist will not warrant Popish fasts 282. nota 36 S. Paul reprooued the Galathians for obseruing dayes and times because they accounted it necessarie to saluation as Papists doe now teach 282. nota 37 Papists fastings condemned by the 1. Tim. 4.23 and differ from the old Christian fast ibid. 38 Aeâ—â—â—s was not condemned of the Church as an heretike for iudging of fasting as Protestants doe 283. nota 39 Auncient Christians fasted voluntarily not by canon or precept ibid. 40 The word Sacraments are the true notes of the Church 283.284 41 The Fathers in the greatest matters are wholy the Protestants 285. nota 42 Papists preferre the Fathers before the Canonicall Scriptures ibid. nota 43 By Aquinas his iudgement things are necessarily prooued by the Scripture but only probably by the Fathers ibid. The summe of the tenth Answere touching all manner of Witnesses 1 It is Campians witlesse kind of reasoning wheÌ„ an enumeration of all kind of witnesses to coÌ„clude all are on his side 299 2 They only find the way spoken of Isay 35.8 who are taught by Christ and be holy 300. nota 3 In visible particular Churches are good and bad not in the inuisible Catholike Church ibid. nota 4 No Iesuite nor any Papist can be in heauen because they haue the marke of the beast 301 5 Many Bishops of Rome are in heauen but neuer a Pope ibid. 6 Ignatius was not on the Papists side because he taught that a Bishop was aboue a King for Protestants hold the same for the administration of the offices of a Bishop Yet the King aboue him in commaunding him to doe them and in puâ—â—shing him if he neglect them 301.302 7 Protestants receiue Traditions so long as they agre with the writingâ— of the Apostles ibid. 8 Neither Telesphorus reuiued nor the Apostles ordained the fast of Lent ibid. nota 303 9 The decretall epistles of the Pope were not framed by them but by their parasites ibid. 10 Iâ—enaeus allowed not the succession of Bishops in Rome but while there was succession of truth with it ibid. 11 Victor could not make the Churches of Asia keepe Easter after the manner of the Romane Church but the Councell of Nice preuailed more ibid. nota 12 The Church of Smyrna neuer gathered the bones of Polycarpe for reliques but to burie them 304 13 Cornelius the Pope could neuer abolish the error which Cyprian and the Church of Affrike did hold ibid. nota 14 Sixtus was no more on the Papists side then on the Protestants because he had Deacons to help him to celebrate diuine seruice ibid. 15 Helenâ— iâ—â—he found the Crosse yet she worshipped it not as Pâ—pâ—â—tâ— do aâ—d thâ—t with â—aâ—râ—a 305. nota 16 Monâ—â—â— deâ—ired not to be sacrificed for at the Mâ—â—â—e for remission of sinne but to be
Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustinâ— affirmâ—th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaesâ— 85 quaeâ—t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speakâ—th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself oâ—ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apochâ—ypha bookes which he wâ—uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill â—lmoâ—t 70â— yeâ—res afâ—er Christ Hierome Hieron iâ— Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accouÌ„ted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fiâ—st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see hoâ— you bewray your owne miserable â—esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apocâ—ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Woâ—d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine theiâ— sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5â— â—â—e do not affâ—me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of â—rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes oâ— the old and new Testamâ—nt See Decâ—et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and infâ—inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit
bookes belong to the old Testament I sent them here vnder written vnto you And this it may be induced Augustine to attribute the more to this booke and yet it cannot be proued hence as you would haue it that this booke was Authenticall and Canonicall by the account of the Church for Augustine himselfe witnesseth that it was not allowed as Canonicall by the iudgement of the Church neither indeed if the Church would haue giuen it all the allowance she could could she haue made it Authenticall except it had before it owne Authenticalnes in it selfe from aboue But you who glory so greatly in Antiquitie in the voice of the Church in Councels what will you answere to the Laodicene Councell Concil Laodic Canon 59. which forbids the reading of those bookes which are without the Canon and commaundeth the reading of those only which are of the Canon of the old and new Testament f DVR It hath been answered a thousand times that as yet in this age all the bookes vvere not receiued into the Canon WHIT. pag. 102. Then by your confession for 300. yeeres after Christ these bookes were not in the Canon it skilleth not much what the latter Churches haue affirmed when the purest and most auncient Churches affirme the same wedo DVR The Councels of Carthage Florence and Trent haue allovved them for Canonicall WHIT. pag. 102. We acknowledge not the two last to be lawfull Councels the first allowed it for manners not doctrine and faith and if the authoritie of it bee so great with you then you may not call your Pope vniuersall Bishoppe for that Councell denied it to him Carthag 3. cap. 26. distinct 99. prima sedis But which are they are all those which the Tridentine Councell hath put in the Catalogue nothing lesse but those only which our Church doth hold Canonicall If Campian you will stand to the iudgement of this Councell neither the booke of Wisdome nor any one of the other shall haue place among the Canonicall Scriptures Now then whatsoeuer Augustine should say if he were aliue doth not much trouble vs for whatsoeuer he should say in this kind he could speake nothing against vs but it would touch the Fathers of the Laodicene Councell whose decree in this point touching the Canonicall Scriptures either he had seene or at least might take notice of it Now for the things which follow you shew much colour but little reason You call this a horrible and detestable shift Then doe you Campian if you can driue vs out of this hold Me thinketh it is so safe and well fortified that it will easily beare off and repell all your assaults Though say you their armes be blased neuer so far abroad by their owne disciples though they buy and sell benefices though in their sermons they cry out against Catholikes though they procure them the sword racke and gallowes yet are they ouercome naught set by horrible in mens sight and quite ouerthrowne But yet young Frier â—ow thus much by Gods blessing we hitherto stand vpright on our seete neither euer were we soyled at your hands but haue long agoe by the helpe of God scattered ouerthrowne and put to flight many of your armies And the whole huge forme of your pontificall and glorious synagogue hath long since tottered and in short time will fall to the ground as Dagon before the Arke vnlesse you Iesuits manfully vphold and susteine it for it is impossible for vs to be vanquished of you in the defence of this cause Therfore with good courage and cheerefulnes we pursue this flight nothing doubting but that the Lord in the end will represse you and all the enemies of his name and glorie and make you his footstoole And for that you write touching buying selling of benefices if any be yet amongst vs it is but the reliques of your wicked practises heretofore among vs. For you know the custome of the Romish Court you know their filthines their auarice their Simony yea you know how the whole world crieth out and that continually of your most gainfull Marchandizes Haue you now leisure since you left Rome to prie into our carriage are all things so wel at home that you can without shame find faults abroad Suppose you were now become honest and holy yet you shall neuer bee able to cleere your Church of those filthie blemishes wherewith it hath bin desiled in former times And if there be any yet amongst vs that vse so foule a trade they are well worthy to heare such reproaches from you as such practises do deserue But I maruell the lesse that you obiect to vs buying and selling of Benefices when you complaine of our crueltie Now good God are we so cruell and you so mild what shall I say to it or what answere may I make sure it is there is nothing more inhumane then cruelty or more opposite to a Christians vertue for the disciples of Christ ought to be gentle clement and meeke master-like what then are we more cruell then you I will neuer deny this triall that their cause should be iudged the worst whose cruelty appeares to be the greatest I call to witnes all the people of the Christian world who haue yet any sense of humanity and equity remaining in them Let Italy speake also Germany Spaine Fraunce and our England It were tedious to recite the horrible murders the fearefull burnings and exquisite punishments you exercised amongst vs. Your cruelty is knowne and is yet fresh in memory neither shall euer be buried in obliuion what like to these did we euer practise or wherein is our cruelty so great was it because we suffered not our throats to be cut by you nor receiued your weapons into our bodies nor laid our neckes vpon the block nor willingly gaue vp our liues that we might giue you leaue to liue as you list This is it indeed you wished for for this you labour and goe about we poore wretches are accounted cruell because we liue and liue to withstand your proceedings But I doubt not but all indifferent men do sufficiently discerne g DVR Campian himselfe had experience of your cruelty WHIT. pag. 105. If Campian was by publike proceeding condemned for treason and put to death who will accuse our cruelty and not the greatnes of his offence yea and that he suffered not for religion appeareth thus others who were condemned with him at the same time and for the same offence when they renounced the Popes authority of deposing of Kings and freeing of subiects from obedience were not put to death as he was how iniuriously you lay this crimination vpon vs for these things which you name as the sword the racke the gallowes and fier are the instruments of your cruelty and had it not been for these your Church had been ouerthrowne long agoe for by these weapons it was first founded after increased and is now maintained if once these faile you questionlesse it
cannot long continue But you now begin to presse your aduersaries somewhat more forceably and you demaund of them for example sake by what authority they maime and robbe the corpes of the Bible I answere we offer no violence to this body neâ—ther do we cut off any which doe appertain to the substance and perfection of it we dash out no part of it we pull away no member For to vse your owne words we do not cut out any true Canonicall Scriptures but cull out such as are not Canonical but foisted in and counterfeit But you would know who shal be iudge you make Caluin to answere for vs the holy Ghost and you suggesting that he giueth this answere to escape the iudgement of the Church if you enquire how we know these writings which we call Scriptures to be heauenly and giuen by the inspiration of God that is by what testimony we are perswaded that those writings are holy Scripture which are so called I would aske you with as much reason another question how know you the sonne is the sonne or how ye come not to doubt that God is God for we verely haue as much certeinty that thâ—se bookes are the sacred Scripture commended of the Lord to the Church written by the Prophets and Apostles proceeding from diuine authoritie as that the Moone is the Moone yea as wee are sure of any thing else which by vndoubted knowledge we are full assured of this answere Caluin also hath giuen you Iustit lib. 1. cap. 7. sect 4. cap. 8. toto writing that many things might be produced which would easily proue that if there be a God in heauen the Law the Prophets and the Gospell came from him yea and with many words at large he vrgeth it with most strong arguments such as may satisfie any reasonable man touching the authoritie and credit of the Scriptures There are in the bookes themselues proofes enough both certeine and perspicuous which will proue and demonstrate the credit of the Scriptures that no man need boubt of them But because the sense and reason of man is often times weake and easily distracted into diuers and doubtfull cogitations the inward and hidden testimony of the spirit must be had that men may firmely rest in the Scriptures For though outward testimonies will so conuince vs that for shame we cannot deny the Scriptures to be the word of God yet then only do we attaine a certeine and sauing ful assurance when the same spirit which writ and published them doth perswade our harts of the credit of them And this is that spirit which the Lord hath promised to his Church and which dwelleth in the harts of the faithfull and is as a seale vnto them he that hath not this spirit shall euer in himselfe be vncerteine and doubtfull though he heare the Church a thousand times What is the fault then you find Campian Caluin say you doth make the spirit Iudge thereby to escape the iudgement of the Church by whose authoritie all spirits are tried The iudgement of the Church ought not to differ from the iudgement of the spirit the same spirit gouerneth the whole h DVR What an absurd thing is this that you contemne the voice of the Church and allow your common people to iudge rather of the Scriptâ—res and giue all to the spirit when the Fathers haue obiected the Church against heretikes WHIT. pag. 109. We contemne not the voice of the first Church wherein these were written and from theÌ„ commended to succeeding Churches But pag. 108. we much regard not the voice of your Romish Church for as we know there is a God though it tell vs not so much so that the Scriptures are the word of God though it be silent and by the same grounds that your Church knoweth the Scriptures to be the Scriptures by the same proofes may euery priuate Christian know them pag. 111. If you know not that the grace of the spirit is necessary to discerne the Scriptures then reade these places John 14 26. 1. Iohn 2 26 27. 1 Cor. 2 14 10. Esay 51 16. Now the same spirit who wâ—it them seales them vp to vs without which some knowledge may be had of them bâ—t no faith we may acknowledge them but not certeinly beleeue them without the spirit And if the Fathers haue obiected the Church against heretikes in the like case we will do the same For the testimony of the spirit is not of validity to confute others but to confirme our selues Church and euery particular beleeuer But your Church knoweth not this spirit no maruell then if it dislike the iudgement of the spirit yet I would haue you take this for an answere once for all that the authority of the Scriptures doth not depend vpon the iudgement of the Church for let the Church iudge what it will yet can it neuer by all the authority it hath make the Canonicall bookes to be no Canonicall and that those which are not Canonicall should be had in reputation as Canonical The Scripture hath it owne proper authority in it selfe not borrowed froÌ„ another And as little can the Church add authority to the Scripture as it can to God the authour of it But say you how commeth it to passe that the Caluinists spirit alloweth six Epistles which the Lutheran spirit doth disallow you go in a ring making only the repetition of the same things without any proceeding Those Epistles the Lutherans i DVR That the Lutheâ—anâ— do not like these Epiâ—iles tâ—ey of Magdeburg Centur. 1. lib. 2. cap. 4. tell vs plainely WHIT. pag. 117. What is that to vs who thinke as honorablie of them as you do but if they by the example of auncient â—hurches haue spokeÌ„ somewhat hardly of those Epistles is there heere any such difference of â—pirits All things are not reueâ—led to all a like all haue not the like measure of the spirit If any be otherwise minded God will in his time reueâ—le â—t to him doe not reiect nor dash them out of the new Testament yea they acknowledge them they make vse of them in vnfoulding of controuersies they expound them in their schooles and churches and they reade them both priuately and publikely vpon many of them Luther hath written k DVR By the same reason if Luther should comment vpon certeine of Aesops fables and Illyricus vpon al then by their spirit they are certeinly receiued into the Canon WHIT. pag. 117. And why may not Aesops fables be in the Canon if your Church please seeing your VVolfangus Hermannus affirme the Scriptures are of no more authority then those fables without the authority of your Church But I adde if you would haue seene it that they vsed them in preaching in expounding Scriptures in deciding controuersies and did interpret them both priuately and publikely Commentaries Illyricus vpon all That of the authority of those Epistles in times past the Catholike Church made some doubt they
be graunted you yet it followeth not that they brought in a new Gospell because they differed from that sense for the sense is not to be sought for among the multitude but we must looke to the Scriptures and to God speaking in them as the men of Berea did not take the sense of the most but searched the Scriptures whether Paul taught things agreeing vnto it The Gospell is not in the words of the Scripture but in the sense They then haue the best end of the staffe and are the best patrons of Religion and truth who find out and keepe the true and natural meaning of the Scripture For the letter or word is plaine all controuersies depend vpon the meaning of the Word The state of the question is then thus whether of vs twaine haue attained the true and naturall meaning of the Scripture whether you Iesuits falsely called Catholikes or we who oppose your opinion and iudgment First therefore in generall and in few words we will see what is your opinion and iudgement then we will answere to your cauils Now it is most cleere that you make both the Scripture it selfe and the interpretation of it to depend vpon the authority of the b DVR Js it some haynous offence to require the iudgement of the Church in interpreting the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 142. We contemne not the iudgement of the Church but highly esteeme it as profitable to the well interpreting of the Scriptures But we contemne the iudgment of your Church which hath not any thing which a true Church should haue DVR Whither then should we goe to finde the sense WHIT. Euen whether Christ biddeth vs go search the Scriptures Iohn 5.39 And this vse they haue saith S. Paul 2. Tim. 3.15.16 Church And the Church you call not the whole multitude of Christians and faithfull men but you restraine both the name and nature of the Church vnto your c DVR You reprooue vs that vvee giue the interpretation of the Scriptures to Bishops they verily ought to deliver the true sense they haue receiued from their predecessors to the people WHIT. pag. 144. S. Paul alloweth all Ministers of the Gospell this power to interpret the Scriptures 1. Cor. 14.29.30 who ought aswell to deliuer the true sense as Bishops Besides you must know that the knowledge of tâ—â— Scriptures and the gifts of the spirit are not hereditarie or to be deliuered from hand to hand Bishops But your Bishops may differ touching the sense of the Scriptures so shall we be vncerteine and shall not resolue which of them to beleeue But you can helpe this generall d DVR Great and many controuersies haue been decided by Councels WHIT. pag. 145. It followeth not hereupon that the interpreting of the Scriptures is to be sought for of theÌ„ or if good Councels by the true interpretation of the Scriptures haue taken away some errors and heresies that thereâ—ore all interpretation is theirs or that we must looke for the same from impâ—ous and vnlearned Councels Councels must decide and determine all questions and controuersies Shall we then rest in them no more then in the other for the e DVR And why not seeing no Councell is of any authoritie which was not confirmed by the Pope WHIT. pag. 146. This is false for the sixt African Councell and the Calcedon Councell haue their authority without him And Emperors Patriaâ—kes and Bishops haue confinued Councels And the Councell of Constantinople by letters desired the confirmation of the decrees from Theodosius the Emperor DVR .. God set ouer the Iewes one High Priest Deut. 17.11 Then would Christ neuer neglect his Spouse but leaue her a chiefe iudge vpon the earth WHIT. pag. 151. Yet that iudge was to determine according to the Law Deut. 17.11 But the Pope maketh interpretations not out of the word written but out of his owne braine Againe it followeth not if ouer one little nation God set one chiefe iudge Christ must set but one ouer the whole world Besides the Iewish iudge was a type of Christ Lastly it followeth not that Chriâ—â— hath left his Church no iudge iâ— he haue not leâ—t it one only for euery Church haâ—h her Pastor to teach her and to dâ—â—ermine questions in her Pope must be iudge ouer the Councels So in the conclusion the whole interpretation of holy Scriptures is transferred to the Pope and must be fetched out of his brest yea and as a proper right he so challengeth the power of interpreting of the Scripture that whatsoeuer he thinketh that must be accounted the sense and meaning of them This is your constant and perpetuall propertie and disposition in interpreting the Scriptures full of dotage error and falshood void of aduise knowledge and wisdome For what an absurd and horrible thing is it that the sense and meaning of the holy Scripture should depend vpon one mans iudgement and voice specially being such a one as commonly the Bishops of Rome haue been vnlearned wicked hereticall And hence haue proceeded all those goodly interpretations Take Eate that is you Priests say priuate Masses Dist. 31. Tenere Drinke yee all of this that is only the Priests must drinke Be yee holy for I am holy f DVR Which oâ— the Popes or what Catholike â—riter euer collected this out of that place WHIT. pag. 159. Pope Syricius did first of all so collect and after him Pope Innocent as you may reade in Graâ—â—an Dist. 31. cap. Tenâ—re Dist. 82. cap. propâ—suisti cap. plurimos therfore it is vnlawful for the Minister of the Word to marry a wife Giue yee not holy things to dogges therefore the people must be forbidden to reade the Scriptures What should I number vp innumerable moe of your interpretations by which you doe nothing but peruert and wrest the Scriptures Is this indeed Campian the right interpreting of Scripture or must all Christians receiue this exposition as the oracle of God But what should I speake of the constant tenour you keepe in the interpretation of Scripture for you make the sense of Scriptures so changeable so diuerse and inconstant like to a nose of waxe and a leaden rule Pighius that at all assaies it may euer serue your turne So writeth g DVR Cusanus hath written very rightly for there are diuers senses of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 162. What rule then can be more vncerteine then the Scriptures or what can be spoken more vilely of the Scripture how then is the Scripture one rule Phil. 3.16 how is iâ— firme induring for euer 1. Pet. 1.25 how no deceitfull ballance Augusâ— dâ— Baptis cont Don. lib. 2. cap. 6. Nicholas Cusanus a Cardinall of Rome Nicol. Cusan Epist. 2. Epist. 7. to the Bohemians This vnderstand that the Scriptures are fitted to the time and diuersely to be vnderstood so that at one time they may be expounded according to the common customable course but change that and the sense is
but there is but one constant Scripture alvvaies like it selfe 3. If at any time there vvas euer doubt made of the Scripture yet there haue been many moe questions and doubts concerning the Church Lastly the Scripture is called a Canon a rule novv the rule as it is straighter so is it more certeine then the thing that is squared by it DVR The notes of the Church ought to be such as are agreed vpon among all as are proper to it neither can be challengâ—d probablie by any other Church WHIT. pag. 356. I confâ—sse as much and such are our notes in all things vvhereas yours are nothing leste DVR But euery sect layeth claime to your notes WHIT. pag. 256. What then vvhat if you lay claime to the things I possesse are they therfore not mine ovvne Be it that heretikes do lay claime to the Scriptures yet they doe it vvithout all shevv of reason and out of the Scriptures only can they be confuted heare the word of Christ and keepe it to vse wholly and purely those Sacraments which Christ when hee departed from his Church left her as a pledge of his loue to her and as a proofe of her loyalty to him These we maintaine as the most true and substantiall properties of the Church and this definition made of the naturall and inbred principles and grounds of the thing which we define you shall neuer bee able to ouerthrow I pray you what is there heere that hideth the Church doth the word of God do the Sacraments hide the Church yea these are they that make the c DVR Why say you then that your Church lay hid for so many yeares together WHIT. pag. 260. Our Church did neuer lie so hid but it vvas discerned by your Pope vnlesse for so many yeares he persecuted shadovves Church appeare as cleere as any thing at noone day these giue vnto the Church strength health and beauty abolish these there will remaine nothing but the carkase of the Church What drowsie dreame then is this you tell vs of an airy body as if we denied that the Church could be found on the earth wee neuer doubted but the Church euer hath been and euer shal be vpon the earth though we also grant that the sight of it being sometime so cleere that it may be seen of all at another time is so obscured euer shadowed that one can hardly know it But no Church pleaseth you saue that which is continually flourishing and which is visible to all mens eies which hath a continuall succession of Bishops to be fetched from the beginning and which is subiect to the Pope Now Campian as for you you come to late to tell vs of these frantike popish dreames wee haue heard discussed and distolued them aboue a thousand times Doe you thinke you are able to make vs beleeue that the state of the Church is such that it cannot be hid that treachery should preuaile nothing against it an open enemy nothing Antichrist himselfe nothing These can neuer quite ouerthrow the Church they may driue it to straits and thrust it into corners August 4.8 Augustine compareth the Church to the Moone which sometime while it is inlightned by the Sunne-beames shineth out aâ— another time it is depriued of the greatest part of the light and sometime shineth not at all So the Church sometime shineth most brightly sometime is more obscured sometime hardly appeareth and her whole course is continually gayning and losing of light Will you that I manifest it to you by examples while Dauid and Salomon raigned the Church flourished in Israell but when Ahab raigned the face of the Church was so far obscured that the most diuine Prophet f DVR Elias spake not of the whole Church but of the kingdome of Israell wherein he liued WHIT. pag. 261. He liued at that time not in the kingdome of Israell but in the mouÌ„taine of God MouÌ„t Horeb. 1. King 19.8 But graÌ„t he spake of Israell only it is no lesse for our purpose For that which hapned there that no good men appeared though many lay hid so it may fall out in other churches and at other times that none or few of the faithfull appeare yet God may haue a multitude of vnknowne beleeuers Eliah complained that there was not one remaining saue himselfe If there could be such a hauocke made of the Church 1 King 14.10 hhm 10.3 that of all that great number of the godly there was scarce one to be seene though there was a good summe remaining of them it need be no wonder that in the kingdome of Antichrist who surpasseth all Ahabs and Iezabels in all brabarous cruelty that the Church should be so wasted that there should appeare a maruellous scarcity of faithfull men And yet could Antichrist in that great hauocke of religion and the Church neuer so far preuaile but there was a remanant of many thousand thousands of Saints who neuer bowed their knees to the beast neither euer receiued the marke of the beast Let vs passe along to those times when Christ liued vpon the earth and consider the state of the Church of Ierusalem For no Church can be more like to the Church of Rome then that as the state of it was when Christ did performe the worke of our saluation They had the Scripture they were a people zealous of the law they had the Temple they had Leuits Priests yea a high Priest what was wanting here to make a perfect Church Christ at length sheweth himselfe openly and bringeth that happie message of saluation this very Church hated persecuted cursed and in the end killed this Christ the Son of God the lagat of his Father the teacher of celestiall doctrine the author of our saluation This Church then Campian was it a true Church or no what think you If it was then the true Church hated Christ and iudged him worthy of death If it was not then where and what is the true Church for Christ at the first had a very smale number that if you answere g DVR The Church vndoubtenly was in Christ and his Apostes WHIT. pag. 262. See then what followeth for our aduantage it it so fell out that the true Church was not amongst them who had a lawfull succession ordeined of the Lord who also had the place the name the dignity and magnificent ornaments of the Church but it was in a few who after a sort were cut off from the Church it is a thing without question that the Church is not alwaies to bee sought for in a visible multitude and an outward succession of men but often times in obscure places and amongst a very few Christ and his company was the Church then you fall into that crime which you reproue vs for If then this might befall the h DVR That which befell the Synagogue of Hierusalâ—â—â— cannot befall to the Church of Christ whieth the Prophets haue plainly foretold should neuer perish
what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many they would waâ— waâ—â—on against Christ and breake their first faith which is not their vow but the profession of Christian religion which such light buswiues would easily coâ—â—â—â—â— that they might inioy their pleasures And that this is his meaning the 1â— verse sheweth For certeine are already turned backe after Satan shewing what some had done he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like And as for the Fathers if they did also expound these words as indeed they doe not yet the argument is very weake in diuinity The Fathers haue thus expounded it therefore the exposition is true Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke a Virgin that once was intangled by a rash superstitious vow after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion Exclaime bitterly as you list Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler seeing your self is a player of a Price But tell vs wherein he did euer shew himselfe such a cutter forsooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens Slerdum lib. 8. Occolam Ephes lib. 4. If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre against the enemies of his couÌ„trie religion where he perished by cruell theeues who lay in waite for him what did he vnbefitting a valiant man a good citizen and a faithfull Pastor to do For whereas you challenge him with conspiracie against his country besides that it is a shamelesse lie I wonder why you should obiect such a crime to him seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country As for Caluin whom you call a seareback runagate the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man and a most constant seruant of the Lord who was as farre from lewdnes and dishonastie as you are from shamefastnes and honesty If he was seared S. Paul was so too Gal. 6.17 yea diuers others but indeed he was not And whereas you call him a runagate I pray you tell vs where you haue liued for these diuers yeares and remember what your selfe were Caluin neuer forsooke the Church hee once tooke vpon him to gouerne but there he liued with the speciall loue of all and there he ended his daies but why doe I answere you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men whom you shal neuer iustly defame though you burst your hart with lying But let vs now heare your communication as you call it And heere you demaund Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred youres we answere we will subscribe but say you to which Church I answere r DVR He did not demaund whether you would subscribe to that Church which had continued in the precept of the Apostles but vvhether to that Church vvhich hath flourished these many hundred yeares vvhich if you vvould you must needs yeeld as ouercome vvhen none but ours haue flourished thus long WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred yeares or for many ages together in the opinion of men it only hâ—â— the name of â—â—e church 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine but you shall neuer proue 〈◊〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place Sea succession no more then Christ his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing vpon the earth to the Church which is built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is to the Churches of Hierusalem Antioch Ephesus and all those famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epistles written by the Apostles yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oysteâ— Finally we subscribe to those Churches of whom we reade in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine which the Apostles taught among them sound vncorrupt These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine were true Churches to those Churches we haue and euer will subscribe And by this I thinke we haue cut off the progresse of your conference for we haue not giuen you such an answere as you fained to your selfe Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand but no answere will please you vnlesse we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church but that we iustly disclaime because it hath fouly corrupted the â—â—â—stles writing You must find you out other subscribers Campian for wee will subscribe to none but the Apostolicall Churches But one thing say you they will still stand vpon in darkenes that where and in what place soeuer the Church is there are conâ—eiued therein only Saints and such as are predestinate to go to heauen We speake not so of the Church as you write for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church that it is sometimes Å¿ DVR I beleeue only one Catholike Church as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me which conteineth both the elect and as many as professe true religion Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church no more then when the Church is said to be mâ—â—â—an and uâ—â—â—phant vniuersall and particular For the visible and â—â—uisible Church make but one called visible for the outward policy or order of it which is seene and discerned inuisâ—ble because Gods election and the electes faith is not to be seene with eies And this distinction we haue Esay 1.9 Matth. 22.14 As for the Creedes you mention we beleeue them in this point aswell as you But tell vs this one Catholike Church what is it If you restraine the name to the visible Church first you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints and that which shall be of these which aâ—e vnborne and yet do belong to the Catholike Church secondly you place faith in the sense which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seene Heb. 11.1 As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue it is the company of all the elect euen as many as haue been from the beginning of the world and shall be to the end therefore it is called the Apostolike and holy Church the communion of Saints And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men no hypocrites because they haue no fellowship with Christ For the holy Church is the mysticall body of Christ of which body no member can at any time perish visible and sometimes inuisible In a particular visible Church of which they are members who will heare the Word and receiue the Sacraments we confesse there are many fained Christians who had rather haue the visard of faith then true faith indeed An inuisible Church we affirme to containe only the godly who with a
true faith lay hold on the Gospell These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men seeing they are men as others bee yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue which maketh them members of the Church is visible we affirme that this Church consisting of holy and faithfull men is altogether inuisible Christ is the head of this Church to this only the elect caâ— ioyne themselues wee then acknowledge another Church besides that which coÌ„teineth only Saints for so should there be no visible Church at all but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets we professe that to be the true Church of Christ though many wicked men be found in it Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things as you say of vs but are ready to proue theÌ„ both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity Comfort then your selfe Campian as much as you can with the wits of our Vniuersity men and promise to your selfe great things from vs but see you bring more dexterity of wit or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men I perswade my selfe they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts but do as much by you too for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites EDMVND CAMPIAN The fourth Reason which is generall Councels AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people was by a Councell gathered together of the Apostles and some elders decided Children then beleeued their Parents and sheepe their Sheepheards charging them in this sort a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost and vs after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers for the rooting out of heresie which budded vp aboundantly in euery age which were of such authoritie aboue b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe that * Gregorie made the foure Councels equall to the Euangelists great honour was attributed vnto them as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels I will seeke no further euen here in our owne Countrey by an c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force and pure authoritie which said acte I will heere alleadge And call thee thy selfe O England my most louing Countrey to witnesse If thou reuerence as thou pretendest those Councels Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act 4. 16. Constan c. 5. Eph. conc in epist. ad Nestorium Nic. con 14 Chal. act 11 Nic. conc apud Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is to Saint Peter Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation and open incest Then wilt thou build vp many things which now thou pullest downe and wish many things vndone which now thou doest Moreouer I promise and vndertake as occasion and time shall serue to proue that the * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell Councels holden at other times and namely the Councell of Trent haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall securely and couragiously to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe seeing I am * This is false ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside and also most substantially prooued which he dare not contemptuously reiect He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time with multiplying of many words but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for you will take so good heed vnto him that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes If there shall be any at all so mad as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome and those such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie are too great to be challenged I would willingly behold that brazen face the which when I shall shâ—w you I will leaue the rest to your imaginations In the meane while I will giue you this caueat that whosoeuer affirmeth that a generall Councell * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell nor lawfully held And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged Sleidan anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men duly and orderly kept and finished is of no force or authoritie the same man seemeth to me to be one of no iudgement nor of any wit and not onely an asse in diuinitie but also voide of discretion in worldly policie If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost when the religion perfection knowledge wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome are assembled together into one Citie and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane whereby the truth may be searched out Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost promised e Joh. 14. by God vnto them that by his assistance they may establish godly lawes for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out let him looke vp stately let him scorne and mocke let him lay all shame aside let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges what game what pastime shall he make we haue spied out such a one euen Martin f Lib. de capt Bab. Luther who saith that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ye may well imagine his owne and Philip Melancthons if they come together in Christs name then he did of all generall Councels O worthy companie We haue found out also another of the same crue to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini Kemnitius who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine what hath he gained an euill name so that he except he preuent it by recanting shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius whereas the Councell of Trent the elder it waxeth by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent O good Lord with what diuersitie of people out of all countries with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales with what
would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
satisfied Nay but you proceed still vnto the ages that succeeded Then when Clemens gouerned the Church then also when the Heathen Emperours massacred the Bishops of Rome Euen then I confesse Rome was an excellent Church of Christ Will this content you Nay further you say Then also when Damasus Siricius Anastasius Innocentius executed the Apostolike function This is not to discend by degrees but to leape for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these But how will you perswade vs to yeeld you thus much Because Caluin as you say frankly confesseth Iâ—st lib. 4. cap. 2. sâ—ct 3 Epist ad Sadâ—l that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell Doe not you Campian catch hold of that which no man will giue you nor be too confident of others liberalitie Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted therefore you must redeliuer it Caluin in that place answereth to your ouerworne argument of succession and she weth that the purpose of the Fathers when they alleaged the succession of Bishops was not to proue those to be true Churches where Bishops succeeded one another but this first they assumed as most certaine that from the beginning of the Church vnto the ages whereof they speake there was no alteration in religion and thus they opposed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserued in the Church Caluin then saith not that they had k DVR Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Christ vvhich swarueth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine vvhat can be spâ—ken more absurdly WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect absurditie to others are most absurde your selfe for vvâ—â— not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors the Church of God The Corinthians and Galathians when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Gospell yet S. Paul saluted them 〈◊〉 Churches 1 Cor. 1.2 Gal. 1.2 which he would not haue done if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors altered nothing in any point of faith but that the Fathers vsed this argument of succession onely in those cases wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell that Caluin neuer confessed and wee constantly denie To say nothing of the rest Thus l DVR This error is common to you and many of your felloâ—es for Syricius vvas not the first vve haâ—e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage vvhich numbreth this among the Apostolike trâ—ditions Carthag 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemenâ— it in his Epistle to S. Iames the Lords brother Amongest the Grecians the custome of the Priests waâ— not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Priest-bood Epiphan hâ—â—rel 59. And Hierome against Viâ—ilantius vigeth this auncient custome of the Church WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law The which many Priests before him of their owne acccrd embraced single life yet none was compelled by law against his will and as for the Councell of Carthage it was held in the time of this Syricius And so not before him for your Clemeâ—s you knovv hee is of no vvorth but a meere counterfeite That you report of the Grecians is incredible vvhen as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this lavv neither vvould the Grecians euer endure this snare Hierome indeed produceth an old custome but no Apostolike nor yet perpetuall custome Syricius swarued from the doctrine of the Gospell when he intangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of inforced continencie and this doubtlesse was no small digression but a plaine departing froÌ„ the m DVR VVhat Catholike euer said that marriage was euill S. Paul teacheth vs to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnostikes and other heretikes of that sort WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my ansvvere is easie your Syricius and Innocent vvhen they feared Ministers from marriage vsed those reasons vvhich either condemned marriages simplie or els they conclude nothing For vvhen they thus reason Priests may not marrie because they must be the temple and the vessell of the Lord and the Chappell of the holy Ghost therefore they ought not to giue themselues to chambering and vncleannes because they ought to be holy because they shall bee polluted vvith carnall concupiscence and to the vncleane all things are vncleane because they vvho are in the flesh cannot please God What I pray you is this else but to affirme that marriages are euill impure and vvicked Make these then no Catholikes or else your question is ansvvered To tye S. Paul to those auncient heretikes only is absurde as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times yea and he hath taxed not those only vvho condemne marriage but vvho forbid them vvhich cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth Apostolike doctrine 1. Tim. 4.3 Heb. 13.4 Now at length you make a stay and pursue the histories of the Church no further only you demaund when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin vnto which question we haue sufficiently answered If you make doubt whether it now bee the same it was you may also if you list doubt whether the sunne shine at noone For this is as cleere and without question as that the present citie of Rome is become vnlike the auncient flourishing Romans common wealth And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh wittily who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome So if you would now in the present n DVR VVhat impudencie is this there vvas neuer heresie that assaulted this Church of vvhich it caried not the victorie As ouer the Donatists Iouinian Pelagius the Britaine and others WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches and stand to that I haue saide The Church of Rome vvhich once flourished is novv so oppressed vvith Antichrist that besides the outvvard face image countenance of a Church a vaine pompe there is nothing else left in it There is no vvord but it is corrupted vvith pestiferous leaued no Sacrament but polluted vvith sacriledge and corruption no discipline but Antichristian I passe not for your Popes chaire your Colledge of Cardinals the glorie of your Bishops your Priests Monkes Temples riches nothing moue me I search for a liuing Church not bare walles for a man not a picture for a body not a shadow as for your criumphes you boast of they are no more proper to the true Church then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus Anniball Perses Antiochus are to be esteemed the triumphes of Rome novv being Finally as for Pelagius he triumphed ouer the whole Popish kingdome For
but indeed many of your Schooles defend him saying the kingdome of heauen is prepared for them vvhich haue merited it by their good works therefore hee chuseth no man to life eternall but with respect of merits S. Iames commaundeth that sicke persons should be anointed Å¿ DVR The sicke vvant health novv as vvell as then and therefore must novv haue the same helping remedie WHIT. pag. 763. Anointing was a signe of healing in those times of extraordinarie giftes in the Church your anointing healeth nothing that wanteth health and so is friuolous therefore we must now euer and anon anoint the sicke This is a great mysterie t DVR The Apostle speaketh that properly of Matrimonte WHIT. pag. 764. Nay he himselfe expoundes it of the mysticall vnion betweene Christ and the Church therefore Matrimonie is a Sacrament Elias and Iohn Baptist liued in the wildernesse u DVR These men left a famous example of Monkish life WHIT. pag. 765. The Monkes life is not proued by their examples for Elias was commaunded to goe into the desert during perill they doe that without both precept and perill John Baptist indeede liued in the desert but wherein men did dwell to whom also he preached and there were many cities and townes in that desert Josh 15.61 what is this to idle Monkish life therefore they inuented the manner of life and discipline of Monkes There are seuen deadly sinnes x DVR Name him that thus disputeth WHIT. pag. 766. It is Iohn Lâ—dâ—vvicke in a booke intituled The golden vvorke of true contrition leafe 128. Where are abunuen sorts of men in the Church c. therefore there are iust seuen Sacraments God made man after his image y DVR Pope Adrian proueth not the vse of images by this place but saith it vvas signified by it WHIT. pag. 767. Then you confesse he alleageth that Scripture to proue the vse of images was signified by it and who but a superstitious doctor would haue done so therefore images must be set vp in Churches The chiefest of these is charitie z DVR The chiefest gift must come from the chiefest vertue WHIT. pag. 768. S. Paul 1. Cor. 13. doth not in all things preferre charitie before faith but onely because it indureth in the life to come when wee shall not neede faith as Chrysostome expoundes it now faith onely apprehends Christ our righteousnesse and therein excelleth charitie Lastly you erre grossely in effect ascribing our iustâ—fication to the merit of vertue in vs vvhich onely is merited by Iesus Christ therefore we are iustified more by charitie than by faith I will goe Osea 5.15 saith the Lord to my place vntill they ponder in their heart and seeke my face which indeede he spake a DVR Do you thinke that God calleth men to repentace ironically WHIT. pag. 799. No but when men will not seâ—k God being called thereto by his bountie no maruaile though hee withdraw it from them and as it were laugh at their madnes of which ironies there be many examples in Scriptures ironically and after the manner of men therefore men may be conuerted vnto the Lord by their owne meere will and disposition The Lord commaundeth vs to doe many things b DVR Augustine denieth that God hath commanded impossible thinâ—s WHIT. pag. 770. Hee expoundeth his owne meaning that Adam before his fall could and that we in heauen shal be able to keepe all Gods commandements but he often saith that no man in this life can fulfill the Law of God DVR Men vse not to make lavves impossible to be kept WHIT. We must not measure Gods doing by mans Againe when these lawes were first giuen man could performe them and vvee must not looke that God should alter them to fit our corruption DVR God could not iustly punish lavvbreakers if they could not keepe it WHIT. pag. 771. Answere then Eusebius Euangelicall demonst lib. 1 who saith that Moses Lavv vvas impossible to be kept of any man And Thomas Aquinas vpon Gal. 3. sect 4. saying Moses commaunded many things vvhich no man could fulfill therefore those things may be performed of vs. Christ descended to the dead therefore he deliuered c DVR Tell me for what other cause Christ went into bel but to deliuer the Fathers from Limbus WHIT. pag. 772. Nay first proue you that he did go so to hel as you thinke for my part I beleeue it not but that his soule went presently to heauen Againe you begge the question saying he went to hell to deliuer the Fathers DVR I proue it by these Scriptures Zac. 9.11 Psal 68.18 Heb. 9.8 WHIT. â—acharie speaketh only of the Iewes deliuery from the captiuitie of Babylon Dauid speaketh of Christs ascending into heauen and triumph ouer his enemies and you childishly inferre hereupon therefore he descended to hell to deliuer the Patriarkes from Limbus but most ridiculously you abuse that place to the Hebrewes the true sense whereof is that we are not reconciled to God by the Iewish sacrifices but by Christ therefore you inferre that none of the Patriarkes vvent to heauen vntill Christ came out of hell and opened heauen by his bodilie ascension the Fathers out of Limbus The Church discerneth the Scriptures d DVR Catholikes say not so WHIT. pag. 773 But your false Church doth so for it interpreteth Scriptures as it listeth and constraineth all Christians to rest therein bee it neuer so false and contrarie to the Scriptures else it doth condemne him for an heretike therefore the authoritie of the Church is greater than the authoritie of the Scriptures Saint Paul commaundeth the Thessalonians 2. Thess 2.15 that they keepe the ordinances which they had learned therefore e DVR What error find you in this argument WHIT. pag. 774. I find in it a threefold false consequent first you cannot proue hence that the things which S. Paul spake by word were not the same in effect which hee wrote to theÌ„ secondly if he wrote not all to theÌ„ which he had taught theÌ„ it followeth not that hee taught something which is not written in the Scriptures thirdly admit many things were left vnwritten yet it followeth not that all things necessary to saluatioÌ„ be not written nor do the ancient Fathers say so all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation 2. Cor. 3 15. Hee himselfe shall bee safe yet as it were through fire f DVR Sundry Fathers expound this place of Purgatory fire WHIT. pag. 776. But the place it selfe sheweth that it cannot bee meant of any such fire for 1. S. Paul speaketh of the purging away that which is a fault but in your Purgaâ—orie faults are not consumed but you say punishments are sâ—ffred for fâ—uâ—â—s 2. S. Paul saith euery mans worke be it gold or wood shall be tried but you cast nothing but wood hay and stubble into your fained Purgatory 3. S. Paul saith euery mans worke shall be
AN ANSWERE TO THE TEN REASONS OF EDMVND CAMPIAN THE IESVIT IN CONFIDENCE WHEREOF HE offered disputation to the Ministers of the Church of England in the controuersie of faith WHEREVNTO IS ADDED IN BRIEFE MARGINALL NOTES THE summe of the defence of those reasons by IOHN DVRAEVS the Scot being a Priest and a Iesuit with a reply vnto it WRITTEN FIRST IN THE LATINE TONGVE BY THE REVEREND AND faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church WILLIAM WHITAKERS Doctor in Diuinitie and the Kings Professor and publike Reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge AND NOW FAITHFVLLY TRANSLATED FOR the benefit of the vnlearned at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie into the English tongue by RICHARD STOCKE Preacher in London IN THIS TREATISE MOST OF THE Controuersies betwixt vs and the Church of Rome are briefely and plainely handled THE PRINCIPALL THINGS IN EVERY ANSWERE are gathered into a short summe and are set downe after the Epistle to the Reader Imprinted at London by FELIX KYNGSTON for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer 1606. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE WILLIAM LORD KNOVVLES BARON OF GREYS TREASVRER OF HIS MAIESTIES Houshold and one of the Lords of his Maiesties most Honorable priuie Councell RIght Honourable the Religion or more truly the superstition of the malignant Church of Rome hath two speciall priuiledges aboue any religion in the world that either hath been or is The one that the professors of it may eate their God in the Sacrament the other that they may kill their King in their discontentment not only when he is an Heretike but as the law saith It is the reason giuen why Pope Zacharie deposed Hilaerike King of France and set vp Pipine in his place in Gratians decree part 2. caus 15. c. 3. Alius when he is Inutilis not for their turne and to their mindes The former hath bin the cause of the spilling of much blood in the daies of Q. Mary the latter of deposing of so many Kings and murthering of them in France and other places of Christendome and of the manifolde treasons in the daies of Queene Elizabeth of blessed and happie memorie And of two attempts against his sacred person and state in these three yeeres space The first was but a smoake the latter should haue been a sire the first was but the lightning the latter should haue been the thunderclap if he that is the God both of lightning and thunder had not gratiously preuented it Now the former of these points they defend euery where but the latter they a little blush to heare of not that it is not in their hearts but because their hands want power to effect it Yet that it is their doctrine and constant opinion hath been prooued in a small treatise which I presented to â—our I honor some few moneths ago And that so apparantly that they are at a default as the Councell was Act. 4.16 What shall we doe to these men for surely a manifest signe is done by them and is openly knowne to all them who dwell in Ierusalem and we cannot denie it So with a little change it may bee said by them What shall we say to these things for surely a manifest truth is told by them and it is openly knowne to all them who dwell in England and wee cannot denie it For though they haue endeuoured to answere it yet they haue not bin able to denie any thing in it Only these Charmers of the spirituall Egypt haue endeuoured to doe in like manner with their inchantments Exod. 7.11 But as all the Sorcerers miracles were not true but onely sleights and trickes by the helpe of Satan so are not these for the most part but only Iaglings and not able to deceiue any but fooles children either the ignorant or the seduced alreadie And in many things in effect they say as Iudah Gen. 44.16 How can wee iustifie our selues God and man hath found out the wickednes of vs all But not to digresse further at the time of my presenting of the foresaid Treatise to your Honour it pleased you to shew me Campians tenne Reasons lately taken in a Papists house translated into English wherewith many were peruâ—â—â—ed and others made to stagger in the way oâ— truth because of the goodly shew of truth that such gilded lies haue put vpon them by such cunning Orators Your Honour was then giuen to vnderstand that they were answered by diuers especially by that worthie and excellent Instrument of Gods glorie and one of the most glorious lights of our English Church Doctor Whitakers The book was shewed you but being written in the Latin tongue you wished for the m re benefit of the generall that it might be turned into English Your will was a commaund vnto me who professe I owe much dutie to your Honour and haue had lesse opportunitie than will to shew it for these few yeeres space I haue been towards you and now as soone as I could for my publike seruice of the Church in my poore ministerie I haue effected it Touching which if I may bee bold to deliuer what I thinke in few words thus much I say for Campians reasons I account him bold in all foolish in many things yet wise in this that in the beginning he tels vs they are his tenne chiefe Reasons Herein he is like to the foolish Painter who when he had made two pictures of two small beasts which after they were made nothing resembled those which he intended writ ouer their heads This is such a beast and this such an one So he hauing composed these tenne Rhetoricall speeches being so without reason which he intended they should haue had he calles them reasons lest the reader in perusing should haue mistaken them as he he had done in writing Doubtlesse at a conclusion Campian is an excellent fellow and if he could haue furnished as good premises as he hath enhaunced and amplified the conclusion he would haue put the answerer to much trouble But now we may say of them as Hierom said of the bookes of Iouinian Hieron aduers Iouinian lib. 1. It is harder to know what he holds Multo difficilius est nosse quam vincere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Portenta verborum descriptionis dedecus Vel per fâ—brem somniare vel a reptum morbo phrenetico Hippocratis vinculis alligandum Hieron cont Heluid cap. 3. Ne respondendo dignus fieret qui vinceretur Quia loquacitatâ—m facundia existimat Quia maledicere omnibus bonae consereatiae signum arbitratur Obscandalum fratrum qui ad cius rabien mouebantur than to confute his opinions not for any deepnes of matter but because he is as Hierome calles Iouinian one that loues to speak darkly For he hath as he speaketh bumbasted words deformed discourses and he that reades him aduisedly would thinke him either dreaming in some distempered fit of an Ague or perhaps rather sick of a frensie so that he had neede
me to vtter in preaching And knowing the necessitie of preaching and feeling the greatnes of the burthen as S. Paul said Who is sufficient for these things 1. Cor. 2.16 I finde all my priuate studies little enough for my publike Ministerie that the more I attaine vnto the more I may communicate to others As the Preacher saith Eccles 12.9 The more wise the Preacher was the more he taught the people knowledge and caused them to heare and searched foorth and prepared many parables I am not of their mindes who think that a man may gather Manna enough vpon the day before the Sabbath to serue his familie or charge vpon the Sabbath it self And though I know mē haue their seuerall gifts some men able to do that in an houre which another cannot doe in three yet I know and acknowledge my owne strength and abilitie to bee such as that I must haue much more time than many others which both hath made me vnwilling and will so make me still to distract my self or intangle my minde with any other thing than with my ordinarie Ministerie I haue often thought of Augustines obseruation that our Sauiour Christ preached much De consens◠Euangelist lib. 1. cap. 7. but wrote nothing and thence haue imputed it a fault to those who haue the roome of Christ which are giuen to write much and preach little specially when their places in the Church requires preaching more than writing I know well that writing is and hath bin very profitable to the Church yet I find a corruption in our times that maketh it lesse profitable because I see men buy bookes more for the Author than the matter and delite more to haue such a booke in their houses than by diligent reading to haue it either in their heads or hearts by which they are neither able to instruct in the truth and informe in their duties such as belong to them neither to defend the truth of God when they come in places where they meet with such as resist the truth as Iannes and Iambres did Moses 2. Tim. 3.8 Atheists and Papists I meane and such like men of corrupt mindes reprobate concerning the faith And so their bookes are a iudgement to condemne them for vaine foolish men according to that of Salomon Prou. 17.16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of the foole to get wisedome and he hath no heart But beloued let it not be so with you or so no more the times are dangerous there are many deceiuers abroad and many daily deceiued for that they haue had a price and opportunitie all these golden and happie daies of the Gospell to haue got wisedome but haue no hearts but only for wealth honour pleasure and such like And if you haue neglected the opportunitie with them thinke it high time to lay hold of it lest it be too late when the fit occasion is altogether past and labour and pray for hearts to seeke Wisedome while she cries in the streetes and seekes for you lest you seek her when she will not bee found And the rather because when there is no loue of truth 2. Thess 2.11.12 God sends strong delusions that men should beleeue lies That all they might be damned that beleeue not the truth but haue pleasure in vnrighteousnes It is the wisdome of men when they heare that many false coyners are abroad to looke well what siluer or gold they receiue and if they haue not either the scales and weights or the touchstone of the Goldsmith or the skill to vse them to trie that they receiue they will aske and being men that haue much to receiue and their state stands vpon it they will both haue them and learne the skill to vse them Should it not bee so with you shall these be wiser in their generation than the children of light or will you bee wiser for the world than for heauen If you loue heauen I say not as you ought but euen in any sort as you loue the world and haue in any measure the like care for your spirituall estate as you haue for the temporall in these dangerous times get to you the ballance of the Sanctuarie not to haue it in your houses only but in your hearts and memories The exhortation of Chrysostome is not so necessarie for these times Commentar in Coloss 3.16 Prouide for your selues Bibles for most haue them in their hands and houses But that hee saith in another place is fitter for our times Hom. 3. de Laza. When you are at home giue your selues to a continuall reading of the holy Scriptures A thing verely much neglected of most in our times to whom his complaint will well agree Which of our people goe about any thing worthie the name of a Christian Hom. 13. in Joan. who searcheth out the sense of the Scriptures vndoubtedly none but the Chesse-board and dice-play we finde often and euery where but their bookes are seldome in hand For your bookes are seldome in hand but when you goe to Church they lie in your houses couered with dust and as it were spread ouer with spiders webbes as if it seemed you durst not touch them when the Tables are kept cleane with vse and Cards worne blacke with continuall play But beloued these things should not be so if either you regard the commandement of Christ Iob. 5.39 Search the Scriptures which is as absolute and generall as that Commandement Thou shalt not commit adulterie or steale or if you reuerence the counsell of the Apostle which is as much as a commandement Let the word of God dwell plentifully in you in all wisedome Coloss 3.16 As good schollers therefore in the schoole of Christ giue obedience to these things and vse a continuall and constant reading of the word at least euery day some part of it which because it is obscure not in it selfe but by the weaknes of mans vnderstanding as men doe to weake eyes applie some holesome salue not to make the light more perspicuous but the eyes more able so vse the helpe of some other writers by which you may more profitably reade it and enable your selues the better to conceiue of it and to know how to applie to euery occurrence the things which are there set downe in their most excellent and wise order though somewhat hidden and infolded to those who haue not their senses as they ought exercised therein And if any desire some direction for himselfe in studying both the Scriptures and other bookes which may helpe for the vnderstanding of them and their better instruction in the matters of saluation I woul intreate them first to heare the ancient and worthie Father and Elder of the ancient Romish Church when as though not without some blemishes Note that it is neither new nor hereticall nor dangerous for the common people to read the scripture and that by the iudgement of the Church of Rome in
but because he was forced to follow a fellow that rode a wilde goose chase The benefit of which epitomie may be this If you reade the summe of euery answere before you reade each particular answer it will well prepare you to conceiue of the answere it selfe if after which I could wish also you would doe then it will present to you the whole as it were in a mappe When you haue read both and the whole booke if at any time you remember some thing you would see more particularly and can but tell or make some nie coniecture in what answere it is laid downe with reading of one page you may finde in what 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 be found Finally let it incourage you the â—â—ther to reade this Treatise because you shall finde in it whatsoeuer is by our late Papists in their Pâ—â—phlets and Treatises which they haue audaciously sent abroad in these few last yeeres when the lawes haue been laid asleepe and the iust seueritie of them greatly qualified I say whatsoeuer is in them either obiected against our Church and doctrine or spoken in their owne defence is here to be found and a solid answere giuen vnto them if any thing would giue them satisfaction If you bee but well exercised in this one booke out of it you may gather some smooth stones as out of a brooke by which though you should not be enabled to hold any long warre with a cunning Papist yet you may smite him in the forehead and fell him groueling to the earth 1. Sam. 17. as Dauid did the vncircumcised Philistine The Apostle exhorts that we earnestly contend for the maintenance of the faith Jude vers 3. which was once giuen vnto the Saints A naked and vnarmed man may well contend but shall neuer be able to maintaine any thing committed to him but it will soone be taken from him so may I say for the truth it is not words but weapons and weight of diuine reason that must defend it therefore must euery Christian souldier that thinkes to haue the crowne take to him such armour as Gods Armourie will affoord him Now those weapons if so be you cannot fetch so readily in the word of truth it selfe because of your infirmitie they are here brought to your hand and you withall are led by the hand to the particular places where they are in the word it selfe Now the Lord of hosts strengthen you in the truth and arme you with his grace that you may be able to stand against all the enemies of your saluation 2. Tim. 4.7.8 and that you may fight a good fight and finish your course and keepe the faith that you may obtaine the crowne of righteousnes which the Lord the righteous Iudge will giue at the last day vnto all those that loue his appearing Yours euer in the Lord Richard Stock The summe of the answere to the first Reason which is holy Scripture 1 PApiste account themselues disarmed if they must fight onely with the scriptures Page 24. nota 2 Of the number of the Canonicall scriptures that Luther and Caluine and their followers haue put out none which antiquitie and the purest Churches haue receiued Page 26 3 Campian was an Apostata not Luther Page 26 4 Luther onely thought not basely of the Epistle of S. Iames but antiquitie also Page 27 5 All Protestants highly reuerence this Epistle of S. Iames. Page 28. 30 6 Luther neuer writ so contempteously of the Epistle of Saint Iames as Campian affirmes Page 29 7 S. Paul and the Fathers haue taught iustification by faith alone Page 30 8 The place of S. Iames expounded and prooued not to be contrary to the doctrine of iustification by faith onely Page 31 9 Not Protestants of late but the Fathers of old haue put out of the Canon Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of Machabees and diuers other bookes Page 32. 33 10 The Papists cannot defend the Articles of their religion by the Canonicall scriptures but are forced to flye to the Apochrypha Page 34 11 Duraeus contrary to the Councell of Trent denieth traditions to be of equall authority with the scripture Page 34 12 Protestants haue denied no one booke or word of any booke of Canonicall scriptures Page 35 13 Angels do defend the elect but their hirarchy and degrees are without warrant of the word and their worship flat against the word Page 35. 36 14 Man hath no frâ—â—will by nature Page 37 15 The bookes of the Machabees are reiected by diuers Fathers and the Laodicene Councell ibid. 16 Neither prayers to the dead nor for the dead are lawfull Page 38 17 Seâ—â—en bookes of the Apochrypha were put out of the Canon by Hierome a thousand yeares before Caluine was borne Page 39 18 The 3. and 4. bookes of Esdra sometime were highly accounted by the church of Rome Page 39 19 Protestants haue not cut out of the Canon sixe epistles of the new Testament but honour them much neither haue the Lutherans Page 40 20 Augustine and Hierome in their difference for the number of the Canonicall bookes reconciled Page 41. 42 21 Meliâ—o Bishop of Sardis though he put the booke of Wisdome in the Canon yet he excludeth all the rest Page 43 22 The Laodicene Councell forbiddeth the reading of those bookes which are without the Canon and alloweth only the reading of thâ—se which we put in the Canon of the old and new Testament 43.44 The Councell of Carthage allowed them only for manners nota for three hundred yeares these bookes were not in the Canon so confesseth Duraeus nota Page 43 23 The Councell of Carthage denied the Pope to be vniuersall Bishop Page 43 24 The Papists crueltie farre surpasseth the Protestants iust seueritie Page 45 25 The scriptures haue in themselues many proofes that they are the word of God but the certaine infallible and sauing assurance is from the spirit of God Page 46. 47 26 Campian scorneth the iudgement of the spirit in respect of the iudgement of the Church as if they were contrary Page 46. 48 27 The Church can make no writing Canonicall neither doth the authority of it depend on the Church It hath in it selfe his owne authority Page 48 28 Without the spirit a man may haue some knowledge of the scripture but no faith The testiments of the spirit as not 〈◊〉 confute others but confirms our selues Page 45. nota 29 The Lutherans did not onely surde somewhat lacking in the Apocalyps but ouen antiquitie receiued it not you reâ—ected it Page 50 30 Luther preferreth the Gospell of S. Iohn and Paules Epistles before the other Gospels and why Page 50. 51 31 What a Gospell is and who especially is an Euangelist Page 51 32 Campian slandereth Luther as touching S. Lukes Gospell Page 52 33 Beza hath no more offended in charging S. Luke with a solecisme then Hierome did in charging S. Paul Page 53 34 The words of institution in the Supper of the Lord a little examined
and explaned Page 53. 54 The summe of the second answere touching the true meaning of the Scripture 1 The substance and soule of the scripture is the true meaning Page 59 2 The sense is not that which most hold but which is agreeable to the scripture ibid. nota 3 Papists make the Church the interpreter of scriptures that is first Bishops then Councels in their defect the Pope for he so challengeth it that whatsoeuer he thinketh that must be the meaning of it Page 60 4 It is very absurd to hang the sense of the scriptures vpon one mans iudgement especially vpon the Pope so vnlearned and absurd an interpreter as many of them haue bin Page 60. 61 5 They teach the sense of the scripture may be changed with the times and occasions Page 61 6 Foure senses of euery scripture made by Papists Page 61. 62 7 The manner of interpreting the scriptures amongst Protestants which is auncient and safe Page 62 8 Protestants do not exclude Christ from the supper as Papists falsely accuse them yet they include him not in it as Papists do his naturall body they place in heauen but the virtue communion and benefit of this body they exclude not but mainteâ—â— that whole Christ is present to each mans faith Page 63 9 Christ is as present in Baptisme and was to the Fathers as in the Supper ibid. nota 10 The popish and false interpretation of these words This is my body this my bloud confuted by the same rule whereby Campian would confirme them that is by conference of them with the words adioyning Page 64. 65 11 That the words of the sacrament bee figuratiue is proued by the induction of other sacraments Page 65. 66 12 There is no miracle in the sacrament Page 67 13 Papists affirme that the wicked eate the body of Christ as well as the beleeuer Page 67 14 All antiquity is on the Protestants side for the interpretation of the words of the sacrament against the Papists and so their transubstantiation is a new inuention Page 67 15 The testimonies of Tertullian and Augustine alleadged and of Theodoret. Page 68. 69 16 The testimonie of Macarius a Monke Page 70 17 Campian dealeth vnequally pressing the Protestants to leaue the iudgement of the scripture and stand to the iudgement of the Pope being an enemy to them Page 71 The summe of the third answere touching the nature of the Church 1 The true notes of the Church whose present being maketh a true Church whose absence marreth and ouerthroweth it are the word the whole and pure sacraments Page 77. 78 2 The Church is more hid and vnknowne then the Scripture Page 78. nota 3 The Church is euer and must be vpon the earth and oftentimes inuisible compared therefore of Augustine to the Moone Page 78 4 In the daies of Ahab and of Christ it was inuisible or scarce visible Page 80 5 Succession not necessary to the being of the Church for it hath bin and yet no Church as in the Church of the Iews Page 81 6 The small number of the faithfull as Christs 〈◊〉 Pag. 82 7 What is a visible Church Page 82. 83 8 Though perticular Churches are visible it followeth not that the Catholike Church is euer visible ibid. 9 The antiquitie of our faith and doctrine is from the Apostles time Page 83. 84 10 Superstitious growing vpon the Church Page 84 11 The growing of the Popes authority to the height it is now at 84. nota 12 The bringing of Images into the Church Page 84. nota 13 The Grecians not subiect to the Romish Church ibid. 14 The vow of virginitie not vnderstood by faith in S. Paul and what is meant by it Page 86. nota 15 To what Church the Protestants will subscribe Page 87 16 In the visible Church are both good and hypocrites in the inuisible only godly and faithfull men Page 88 17 The distinction of visible and inuisible make not two Churches but one and how they differ and what the Catholike Church is nota The summe of the fourth Answere touching generall Councels 1 Protestants with consent of antiquitie prefer the Scripture before Councels Page 94. nota 2 Nazianzenes hard censure of Councels Page 95 3 The first Councell hold by the Apostles and Church by necessarie consequent condemneth the multitude of popish ceâ—â—â—â—nies Page 96 4 Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time how would he complaine if he saw the multitude of popish ceremonies Page 96 5 Gregories speech expounded touching the foure generall Councels Page 97 6 The iudgement of the Church of England touching the foure generall Councels Page 98 7 The Popes may not haue Peters honour seeing they haue not his vertues and pietâ—â— 99 8 The Canon of the Councell of Nice vtterly ouerthrowed the supremacie of the Pope giuing him no authoritie ouer other churches no more then others ouer his Page 100. 101 9 The Councell of Calcedon doth not confirme the Popes supremacie but ouerthrowes it The Councell gaue to the church of Râ—â—â— greater prerogatiues because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire and not for any law of God and made the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome Page 101. 102 10 The Councell of Constantinople gaue vnto the sea of Rome the honour of precedence and place not of authority Page 103 11 The Councell of Ephesus ascribeth no more to the Bishop of Rome then to other Bishops ibid. 12 The Councell of Nice doth not establish the vnbloudie sacrifice of the altar for in the canon named there is no mention of sacrifice or altar Page 104 13 The Fathers haue called the Lords Supper an vnbloudie sacrifice because it is without bloud and not because no bloud is then shed Page 105 14 Saincts departed know neither vs nor the things we do or slâ—â—â—d in need of no reason then we should pray vnto them though the custome be auncient it hath no warrant Page 106 15 Saincts departed know our generall conditions as we theirs not our perticular state nota 16 S. Paul prayed not to the Romanes and Corinthians as Papists do to Saincts but required of them a christian dutie nota 17 The Councell of Calcedon admiâ—teth ministring Widowes who are but 40. yeares of age forbidding them marriage when as S. Paul would haue them 60. before they be admitted Page 107 18 Duraeus confesseth that in the first age they did not prefer continone is before marriage nota 19 They who haue vowed single life and cannot performe it haue done euill in vowing but not in marrying and for to vow things not in our power is to mock God Page 108 20 Chastitie and single life is not in mans power nota 21 Cyprian alloweth Virgins who haue vowed virginitie if they cannot liue honestly to marry Page 109 22 Campian maketh the Councell of Trent and other Councels equall with the foure Euangelists Page 110 23 Priuate men alleadging the scripture rather to be beleeued then the
Councell is not only Loâ—hers iudgement but Gersons and Panormitans Page 111 24 The reasons why Protestants went not to the Councell of Trent Page 112 25 Iohn Husse burned at the Councell of Constance contrary to the Emperours warrant Page 112 26 No promise made by the Emperour or any secular Prince may hinder the proceedings of Ecclesinsticall Iudges nota 27 Ecclesiasticall Iudges that is the Councell is abone the Emperour Page 113 28 Luther goes to the Councell vpon the Emperours word Pag. 114 The summe of the fifth answere touching the Fathers 1 It is a foolish brag of Papists to challenge all the Fathers for theirs and to be on their side when there is nothing lesse Page 124 2 The popish Denys was not the Denys Areopagite whom Paul conuerted to the faith and his hierarchie as noueltie Page 124. 125 3 Ignatius they boast so much of was a counterfet Page 125. 126 4 The argument is weake Ireneus is challenged by Protestants to haue written something vnsoundly therefore he is altogether on the Papists side he errect about the time of Christs preaching baptisme and death he was a Millenarie Page 126 5 Clemens taught that Christ did neither hunger nor thirst and that he taught but 〈◊〉 veare And that the Philosophers in hellexpeâ—ted Christs comming and being taught by him beleeued Page 127 6 Tertullian in his booke of prescriptions hath many things against the Romish church Page 127 7 The popish Hippolytus is counterfeit and his booke of Antichrist which gesseth that the Diuell was Antichrist Page 127. nota 8 Caussaeus excused for his censure of Cyprian by Nazianzenes report of him what he was in his youth Page 128 9 Cyprian and other Fathers corrupted the doctrine of repentance making it a kind of satisfaction they detracted from the death of Christ and the power of it Page 129 10 Chrysostome Nazianzene Ambrose and Hierome are not wholy on the Papists side because Luther and others censured them in some things Page 130 11 Papists are not the children of the Fathers but as the Pharisies were of Moses and the Iews of Abraham Protestants reuerence the Fathers but acknowledge but one father which is in heauen nota 12 Beza did Hierome no wrong if Erasmus said true of his censuring of S. Paul for want of moderation in ansâ—ering the high Priest and imputing some wants to Christ Page 131 13 Hierome often much wresteth the scripture Page 132 14 It is lawfull to prefer one man in the truth before all Fathers and Councels in error Page 132 15 Lent fast though auncient yet was it not ordeined by Christ or his Apostles the manner of obscruing it not the same in all Churches Page 133. nota 16 What fasts Protestants allow the same iudgement they haue which Augustine hath who knew not Lentenâ—fast Pag. 134 17 The popish Monks are maruelous voluptuous and liue in sensualitie far vnlike those who haue beene Page 134 18 Reliques of Saincts not burned nor their funerals remoued but their superstitions iniurious to God and his glory Pag. 135 19 Augustine in his booke of freewill doth not establish it but sheweth that sinne commeth from mans freewill not from God and therefore intitled his booke so Page 136 20 The Papists and Pelagians differ not much in freewill Pag. 137. nota 21 Necessitie is not opposite to the freedome of Will but to force and compulsion man lost not his will but the qualitie of it nota 22 Augustine esteemed much of antiquitie vnitie and succession if sincere wisdome and truth went with them else he preferred truth before them so do Protestants Page 138 23 Optatus confuted Donatists by the communion of the Catholique Church so are schismatikes to be delt with but not from the now Romish church which is no true church Pag. 138. 139 24 Anthonie and other Hermites like him haue not successors like themselues He accounted a Monastery for a Monke as water is to fish Page 140. nota 25 Prudentius vsed a poeticall libertie in his deuotions to Saincts Page 140. nota 26 Praying to Saincts had gotten great footing in the Church when Ambrose liued and he and other Fathers were corrupted by it Page 141. nota 27 Gregorie without any warrant called Images lay mens bookes Page 141 28 It is lawfull to breake downâ— Images by warrant of the word and examples in it and in the stories of the primitiue Church nota 29 Not Protestants but Papists reiect oftentimes the testimonie of the Fathers and flye to Councels pag. 142. Then Campians argument is not good Protestants reiect some things in the Fathers therefore they reiect their whole volumes for if it be good it will fall vpon themselues Page 142 30 Protestants haue reason to prohibite popish bookes being full of sedition and horesie specially seeing in Queene Maryes time they executed martiall lawe vpon any that had the bookes of Protestants Page 143 31 Bishop Iewel proued all the auncient Fathers to be against the church of Rome in disputing with Harding as he had assumed at the Crosse Page 144. 145 The summe of the sixt Answere touching the foundation of the Fathers 1. Campians reason is weake The Fathers haue studied the scriptures diligently and preferred them before all other writings therefore their exposition of them is sound and good not to be reiected without sinne Page 150 2 Hierome and Augustine dissent about the exposition of Gal. 2.11 Page 151 3 Not only euery particular Fathermaâ—erre but all of one age haue erred in a particular of setting vp Images in the Church Page 150 nota 4 Augustine Innocent and other Bishops thought it neceâ—sary the Eucharist should be giuen to infants Page 151. nota 5 Papists leaue the scriptures and search out and follow after mens inuention Page 152 6 The Papists allow the learned only to reade them but Christ commandeth all Page 152. nota 7 It is prooued against Duraeus that Christ hath commanded the simple to reade the scriptures and hath left to them the bookes of the scriptures Page 152. nota 8 Protestants will subscribe to the Fathers so far as they keepe them to the scriptures Page 153 9 Denys is against the priuate Masse Page 160 10 Priuate Masses cannot profit the absent Page 160. nota 11 In Iustine Martyrs time they gaue to the people both the bread and wine ibid. 12 Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter and denies that any appeales should be made to the Bishop of Rome ibid. and pag. 161. nota 13 Lactantius denies that true religion and Images can stand together ibid. 14 The heathen worshipped not their Images but the Gods expressed by them ibid. nota 15 Athanasius maketh the scriptures sufficient ibid. 16 Epiphanius condemneth all worshipping of the virgin Mary ibid. and pag. 162 17 The Papists do worship and offer vp sacrifices to the virgin Mary and other Saints Page 162. nota 18 Basil saith in his time the prayers of the Church were in a knowne tongue ibid.
19 Prayers in an vnknowne tongue profit not the people as Duraeus thinks they do ibid. nota 20 Nazianzene alloweth and praiseth ciuill societie no lesse then Monkish life ibid. 21 Ambrose condemnes all prayers to Saints and their intercession Page 163 22 Duraeus vaine distinction of Intercessors and Suffragators ibid. nota 23 Hierome makes a Bishop and a Priest of equall authoritie bâ— the laâ— of God ibid. 24 Pope Gelasius condemneth as sacrilegious the tâ—king away of the cup from the people and commaundeth that either both the elements be giuen to them or neither Page 164 25 Duraeus maketh the Manechies the first authors of dismembring the supper ibid. nota 26 Vigilius denies the presence of Christ in the Church in both natures ibid. 27 Chrysostome exhorteth all men to reade the scriptures ibid. 28 Augustine is wholly on the Protestants side Page 165 29 By Gregories iudgement he that calleth himselfe Vniuersall Bishop is a fore-runner of Antichrist Page 161 30 Iohn Bishop of Constantinople first challenged the title of Vniuersall Bishop ibid. 31 What is meant by vniuersall Bishop by Gregories iudgement which toucheth the Pope home ibid. nota 32 Boniface the 3. tooke the name of vniuersall Bishop and deriued it to his successors Page 166. nota The summe of the seuenth Answere touching histories 1 Campian only numbering vp the Historiographers foolishly concludeth all are on their side page 169 2 Protestants refuse not to examine their doctrine by histories so they be not tied to the apparent blemishes in theÌ„ Page 170 3 Historiographers are tainted with the corruptions of their times and the later they are the more corrupt for the most part they are found to be Page 161 4 The church of Rome is maruelously corrupted though we could not tell when it begun to be so and yet see the beginning of some particulars as of vsurped authority ouer Churches of deniall of Priests mariages of worshipping Images of carnall eating in the Sacrament of Transubstantiation of Purgatory of the Pope aboue Councels Page 177. nota 5 The corruption of it greâ— not all at once no more then of Ierusalem but by little and little as in the Greeke church also Page 172 6 The heads of the heretikes who rose vp in the Greeke church so of those who rose vp in the Latine church ibid. nota 7 The Church all the Apostles time was a pure virgin after their departure became corrupt Page 173. 174 8 The promises of the Churches perpetuall preseruation from corruption did and do belong to the Church of the elect not to particular Churches ibid. nota 9 In the Councell of Africk where there were present Page 217. Bishops and Augustine himselfe the Bishop of Rome affected to haue all appeales made to him but the Councell denied it vnto him Page 175 10 The Legates of the Pope forge a Canon of the Councell of Nice to perswade this Councell which forgerie is found out by search ibid. 11 Augustine and the Bishops of Africke censured for schismatikes by Boniface for resisting the Bishop of Rome who affirmeth that they were moued vnto it by the Diuell Page 176 12 Eulalius the first Bishop of Carthage who admitted the Popes power ouer the Churches of Afrike ibid. 13 Then became the Church of Rome plainely Antichristian when Phocas the murtherer granted to her to be the head of Churches and Boniface the 3. to be vniuersall Bishop ibid. 14 Gregorie the great was the last good and the first bad Bishop of the church of Rome Page 177 15 Bernard and Aeneas Siluius who was afterward caâ—â—d Pope Pius maruellously inueâ—ed againsâ— the corruptions of the church of Rome ibid. 16 Bernard cryeth out of the pomp of Eugenius the Pâ—â—e and the impietie of his court ibid. nota 17 All sinnes in Rome might both be practised and reprehended Page 1â—8 18 The censure of Cornelius which he gaue of the church of Rome in the Councell of Trent ibid. 19 The Argument is weake the church of Rome was once holy therefore it is so still ibid. 20 Rome though it be Babylon yet not that which S. Peter spoke of 1. Pet. 5.13 Neither haue they yet prooued that Peter was at Rome Page 179 21 If histories do mention any such thing yet it is with such varietie that there is no certaintie of it in the scriptures there is not one tittle of it nay by necessary collection they disclaime it when as this then is the whole ground of the hierarchie of the Papacie it is a ground without any foundation of the scripture ibid. nota 22 Caluine confesseth the church of Rome in the time of Syricius and other Bishops to haue bene the Church of Chriâ—t but denies not but it had erred Page 181 23 Errors ouerthrow not a Church for being a true Church ibid. 24 Syricius the first who inforced single life vpon the Ministers ibid. nota and Page 182 25 Syricius and Innocent did condemne marriage as euill Page 182. nota 26 The Church of Rome is but a Church in shew and pomp else it hath nothing in it of a true Church Page 183. nota 27 Pelagius and Papists agree both about grace inbred in mans nature ibid. The summe of the eight Answere touching the Paradoxes of the Aduersaries 1 Caluin nor any Protestant maketh God the author of sin pag. 193. nota and Page 194. nota 2 God hath a finger in the action which is euill not in the corruption of it which is wholy from man but in the motion and action which is in it selse good Page 195 3 If wee say God permitteth sinne vnwillingly wee ouerthrow his prouidence and omnipotencie he willeth yet alloweth not that which is euill Page 196 4 Men are guiltie of sinne in the things they doe which are euill and yet God holy though he willeth them Augustine and Hugo de Sancto Victore doe so thinke Page 197. and Page 198 5 The Lord worketh both in him that sinneth and in him that worketh well but after a diuers manner Page 199 6 Christ is the Sonne of the essence of the Father not by decision or propagation but by communication But he is God of himselfe Page 201. and nota 7 The essence is not begotten but the person of the person Page 202. and Page 203 8 Beza corrected his error of two personall vnions in Christ. ibid. 9 The 10. of Iohn vers 30. expounded and defended that it proueth not the vnitie of essence in Christ his Father Page 204 10 Not Luther only but many of the Fathers disliked and repented the bringing in of the word Homousion yet they held the thing Page 205 11 Christ was not at the first perfect in wisedome but mcreased as in bodie so in his minde and wisedome Page 206 12 Christ was ignorant of many things but without sinne Page 208 13 Christ was ignorant of the last day as man and not onely because hee would not or did not reueale it to others Page 208. nota
corrupt and counterfeit and with this you were put to silence and had not to answere only that you might probablie in shew conuince Luther of blasphemie you demaunded of our men their iudgment of this Epistle They cleerly answered that they accounted this Epistle of S. Iames as all other the Epistles and bookes of the new Testament to be Canonicall Affirming that all our Churches were of the same iudgement And from this you would conclude that Luther therefore was blasphemous because he had written that some probablie called the authoritie of this Epistle into question To this our men replied the consequence was naught from our reuerent opinion of this Epistle to inferre that whosoeuer made any question of it did blaspheme And heere you plainely yeelded For when you boasted of two other reasons that you had you produced none at all After this you came to the old Testament where you accuse vs to haue raced many bookes out of the true Canon The testimonie of Antiquitie was laid before you whence it was cleere that those bookes were not Canonicall Heere you preferred the late Councels and Fathers before the auncient which may not be permitted you And you set Austine in opposition against Hierom when it had been fitter you would haue reconciled them Augustine he affirmes these bookes to be Canonicall Hierome denies them yea expresly plainly and euidently For Augustine our men answered that he vsed the word Canonicall doubtfully or in diuers signification And that they shewed plainely out of Augustines owne words and Cardinall Caietans Augustine you shifted off and Caietan you audaciously reproached affirming that the Cardinall lost all his grace and elegancie when he once began to Comment vpon the Scriptures At length Campian you were forced euen in Gratian not without blushing to acknowledge this ambiguity of the word And whereas you could not be ignorant of auncient records it was a wonder to our men to see you write that we had of a sudden raced out these bookes Surely this word escaped you very vnlearnedly and inconsideratly we haue store both of auncient witnesses and of others succeeding them who will and can free vs from such imputation of Noueltie To passe by Origen and Eusebius Cyprian or whosoeuer he was that writ the exposition of the Creed we find among his workes after he had reckoned vp all the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament he addeth These are those bookes which the Fathers haue included in the Canon Cyprian in expos Symbo where they would that all the grounds of our faith should haue their foundation Yet we must know that there are other bookes which were not called of our predecessors Canonicall but Ecclesiasticall as the booke of Wisedome said to be Salomons and another booke of Wisdome said to be Syrackes Of the same rancke is the little booke of Toby and Iudith and the bookes of the Machabies To him I will adde another later in time and yet he writ 400. yeeres agoe Hugo de sancto victore a very learned man and famous in his time If you haue not read what he hath written in this kind reade it if you haue read it remember it with me after he had reckoned vp by name the Canonicall bookes of the old Testament in the end he thus writeth There are besides in the old Testament Hugo de Sanct. victore in prologo pomi lib. de Sacram. cap. 7. certeine other bookes which indeed we reade but are not written in the corpes of the text or in the authentike Canon As the booke of Toby and Iudith and Machabees and the booke called the Wisdome of Salomon and Ecclesiasticus I omit others and many which I could produce in this kind and that of all ages out of which the constant iudgement of the Church touching these bookes may be discerned Which being so doth it become you Campian to be so iniurious vnto vs so boldly to affirme that we haue latelie crossed out those bookes out of the Canon or which of vs wil be afraid of you triffling so childishly please not your self too much with your wit neither abuse the gifts and parts which you haue gotten by nature or industry to defend falshood and to vphold the kingdome of Antichrist Lay your hand vpon your hart and know your selfe well and cease from that arrogancie with which your vaine sect hath puffed you vp leaue off your lying shake off that Iesuiticall light be hauiour of yours And as Augustine perswaded Hierome take to you the grauitie of a Christian and make recantation For it is no dishonor to recant an error but to persist in it But let vs againe come to your preface There remaineth only for me say you an account to be giuen of my fact and euidently to shew and as it were with the finger to point at those Chapters and fountaines which breed in me such confidence But we Campian can see no cause at all why you should promise so great things of your self or so trust in those fountaines which are as vaine as may be and light as water for these your ten heads which haue made you so headie and bould are so many guilded lies vpon which if you relie your case is farre more lamentable then of those Iewes whom the Prophet Ieremie reproues Trust not in lying words Jer. 7.4 saying The Temple of the Lord The Temple of the Lord. And what is your Euensong but this or that which is farre more foolish and desperate But you say You are able enough to proue that this Sunne shineth now at midday Your sufficiencie all men may see You are as wel able Campian to turne the day into night and to pull the Sunne out of the heauens as defend these heads Those vnusuall boastings and promises so vsuall with you argue a mind proud and swelling with arrogancie and not indued with sound knowledge and learning The emptier the vessels be the lowder they sound VVhat insolencie I pray you made you adde that of Roscius Supposition as if the things you defend were as manifestly true as it is impossible any man should run 700. miles in two daies I am ashamed Campian to see how vaine you be and full of boasting and arrogancy What dare you vndertake to conuince all the most famous and excellent Churches of the world of error as directly and plainly as it is impossible for a man to walke 700. miles in two daies If Campian you can compasse the world in three daies if you can outgoe the Sun if touch the heauens with your fingers if number the starres if drinke vp the sea you may demonstrate the truth of your cause to which you are so deuoted But if those things surpasse your strength then shall you neuer make this good no though the whole knot of Iesuits ioyne with you Now whereas you intreate vs to haue a care of our soules health we take in good part your desire and endeuour of our saluation And indeed
we our selues do giue all diligence we can to attaine true sauing health to which seeing there is but one way and that plainely laid downe in the Scriptures we againe beseech you that renouncing all humane inuentions and forsaking those innumerable fictions of Poperie wherto for these few yeares past you haue bin addicted you would also with vs labour for that eternall saluation which the Scripture hath propounded to all Christians and to as many as are desirous of eternall life For what profiteth it to wish for saluation and miserablie to erre in the search of it Wherfore Campian we pray and beseech you to returne from these your wanderings and errors tending to death into the plaine and straight way of saluation For this know so long as you remaine a Iesuite you neither can be saued nor indeede can desire it And heere you say you are the briefer because you will deale with vs in a Treatise following Therefore now let vs heare your discourse REASONS OF CAMPIANS CHALLENGE RENDRED AND GIVEN TO THE Students of the English Vniuersities EDMVND CAMPIAN My principall reasons are ten 1. Holy Scriptures 2. True meaning of the holie Scriptures 3. Nature of the Church 4. Generall Councels 5. Fathers 6. Sure ground of the Fathers 7. Historie 8. Paradoxes of the Aduersaries 9. Sophismes of the Aduersaries 10. All manner of witnesses The first reason which is holy Scriptures WHereas there are many things which euidently open the Aduersaries mistrust in the cause yet nothing so much as the maiestie of Gods bookes by them most filthilie * It is false for we haue corrupted no part of the Bible corrupted For they who after that they haue reiected the voyces and testimonies of all other witnesses and are neuerthelesse driuen to so narrow shifts that they cannot defend their cause to be good except they lay violent hands vpon the holy Scriptures also assuredly shew themselues to be in great distresse and all other helps failing and fainting must now trie the last and vttermost shift What cause had the Manachies to cancel a Aug. lib. 28. contra Faust cap. 2 de vtilit cre c. 3. S. Matthewes Gospell and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation for they were tormented with these bookes both because they had denied Christ to be b Matth. 1. borne of a Virgin and also had falsely affirmed that then the holy c Act. 2. Ghost came first downe from heauen amongst Christians when their d Manes Paraclete that most wicked Persian leapt out What made the e Jren. lib. 1. cap. 26. Ebionits to abandon all S. Paules Epistles Deâ—peration for so long as these kept their authoritie Circumcision is abolished which they had brought backe againe What enforced f Praefat in Epist Iac. vide etiam lib. de capt Babyl centur 2. Luther that most wicked Apostata to call the Epistle of S. Iames * This is most false for Luther greatly approueth of this Epistle neither euer did he call it a contentious swelling barren or strawne Epistle contentious proud barren rushy and iudge it to be vnworthy an Apostolike spirit Desperation g Iaco. ca. 2. For by this Epistle that miserable caitife affirming our iustification to be by faith * This is false for the place maketh nothing at all against Iustification by faith only only is vtterly confuted coÌ„founded what incensed h Bibl. Geneu Luthers whelpes on a suddaine to put out of the * It is false thâ—se bookes were neuer accounted part of the true Canon true Canon of Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees in despight of them many other i Of the old Testament bookes vnto which they picked the like quarrell Desperation for by these heauenly k Tob. 12. Eccles 15. 1. Macha 12 1. Machab. 15. Oracles they be expresly conuinced as often as they dispute against the defence of Angels as often as they dispute against Free-will as often as they dispute against praying for the dead as often as they dispute against praying to Saints Is it so indeed Is there such frowardnes is there such presumption amongst meÌ„ when they had trodden vnder foot the authority of the Churches CouÌ„cels * Seas Fathers Martyrs Emperours People Lawes Vniuersities Histories all Monuments of Antiquitie holines had openly proclamed that they would haue all controuersies decided by the written word of God only would they then haue dismembred the very same word which only remained by cutting out of the whole body so many so good and so excellent partes therof For the Caluinists haue cut out of the old Testament l Baruch Tob. Iudith Sapient Eccles Macha dâ—o seauen whole bookes besides certaine other small peeces which I let passe vnspoken of The Lutherans likewise haue cut off S. Iames Epist for spight of it m Epistol ad Hebr. Epist Jud. Epist 2. Pet. Ep. 2 3. Iohannis it a censent Luth. in praefat Mag. Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap 4. Kem. in exam con Tri. Ses 4. De doct chr lib. 2. cap. 8. Ses 4. vide Mel. Can. lib. 2. de Loc. Theol. cap. 9.10.11 de praedest Sanct. cap. 14. fiue others which some where els also were once called in questioÌ„ To these also do the late Geneuans adde the booke of Hester a great part of the third chapter al the two last chapters of Daniel which the Anabaptists their school-fellowes had a little before coÌ„demned laughed to scorne But how much more modest lie delt S. Austine who making a Catologue of the books of holy Scriptures tooke for his rule neither the Hebrew Alphabet as the Iewes do nor yet his owne priuate spirit as Heretikes vse to do but that spirit wherewith Christ quickneth the whole body of his Church which Church being not Lady as Heretickes do cauil but only keeper of this gage hath by old * This is false for the Laodicene Councel doth so number the bookes of the Scriptures as we do and not as the Councell of Trent doth auncient Councels openly challenged this whole and entire treasure of the bookes of Scripture which the late CouÌ„cell of Trent also hath embraced The self-same S. Augustine intreating particularly of one parcell of Scripture could not perswade himselfe that the booke of Wisdome should by any mans rashnes or secret false suggestion be thrust out of the Canon of Scripture which euen in his time by iudgement of the Church processe of time testimonie af auncient writers and instruction of faithfull men had kept his authoritie as a sound and Canonicall booke what would he say if he were now liuing vpon the earth againe and should see the Lutherans and Caluinists to be Bible makers who with their sine and smooth stile haue raced both the old and new Testament and put out of the Canon of holy Scriptures not only the booke of Wisdome but many bookes more also so that
boulder then a Iesuite being newlie come out of your den or cabbine where you haue lurked these diuers yeeres to proclame warre against vs all and challenge to the combate the most valiant of vs that you saie was the euident apprehension of our distrust and diffidence in our cause But what manhood is this for so valourous a man as you make shew to be to prouoke and with sharpe warre to pursue so timerous aduersaries who are readie to betake themselues to their heeles not daring to stand to it but distrusting their owne strength But tell vs in what things our distrust hath bin so sensible There are many things say you which euidently bewray the aduersaries mistrust in the cause Verelie if boldnes in oppugning and withstanding Religion were of as great force as vsually it is in making of warre and scaling the enemies walles and racing his townes we might well feare your furious and desperate attempts for whatsoeuer could be compassed by rage furie and crueltie that hath not in this combate and contention been wanting But such weapons cannot dare religion and truth neither can they displace it Let it be graunted we haue not been so cheerefull and readie in the defence of a good cause as we ought and as the cause it selfe well deserued neither haue we put to flight your forces so soone as we ought to haue vanquished theÌ„ yet we neuer gaue ground we neuer turned our backs vpon you neither euer sled out of the field a DVR You boats much of your valour but vvhether thinke you is he valorous or fearefull vvho dare not othervvise buckle vvith his aduersarie but vpon condition he may forbid him what weapons he list and choose for himselfe vvhat he list Now here is your valour you forbid vs the vveapons of the Church Councels Fathers You only leaue vs the weapons of the Scriptures WH Pag. 4. He that will ouercome in this cause must onely vse those weapons which are allowed in this kind of sight For it is not lawfull heere as in warre to take any weapon by which you can wound your enemie But weapons must be fetched out of the armorie of the Scriptures and the spirit of God or else there vvill be no foyling of an aduersary And this is that which the Scriptures doe warrant and Constantine commanded the Fathers of the Nicene Councel to vse against the Arrians and to end controuersies the bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles and the oracles of the old Prophets Theodoret. lib. 2. cap. 6. And the like teacheth Hillarie de Trinit lib. 7. August Epist. 3. and contr liter Petil. Donat. lib. 3. cap. 6. and in diuers other places Why doe you then repoue this thing in vs Tell me vvhose cause thinke you is best vvhether ours vvho are content vvith the Sâ—riptures alone and being armed vvith them can defend our ovvne and refel others or yours vvhich in no case can be safe if the cause must be tried by the Scripture only Therefore at the fiâ—st you are forced to confesse that you must come into the field vnarmed and naked if no vveapons vvill be afforded you besides the Scriptures For tell vs Campian if you can and remember the bypast times Did we euer cuÌ„ningly auoid any disputation did we euer refuse any combate did we euer shift off any of your offers and challenges But how often haue we publikely entred the combate with you how often haue we refuted your oft iterated Sophistications what writing of yours is yet vnanswered by vs or what course of disputation haue we not yeelded to Are not all those disputations held at Wittenberge Ratesbone Augusta Spire Wormes Bearne Possia London Cambridge Oxford most plentifull and pregnant witnesses with what spirits with what learning with what truth we defended our Religion what shew or signe of feare or diffidence found you amongst vs nay rather how true and singular confidence did there appeare in vs you it is and not we when it comes to a trial indeed that begins to sweat chaunge countenance tremble euery ioynt of you and bewray your deepe distrust and the naughtines of your cause Wherefore Campian take it from me if you thinke our distrustfulnes will helpe you any thing you much deceiue your selfe for if we haue with courage stood against your predecessors so far surpassing you we will not yeeld a haire to you nor feare your manner of conflict being so childish in the iudgement of all men But this diffidence you so cast in our dish tell vs what it is and how it appeares so clearely Forsooth we distrust our hold in the Scriptures and the maiestie of Gods bookes we haue most filthilie corrupted This indeed is a very great crimination you obiect to vs and an vndoubted proofe of our distrust for they who are not able to maintaine the Religion they professe vnlesse they lay violent hands vpon the Scriptures and impeach the sacred authoritie of those heauenly bookes the cause on their side must be very naught and desperate indeed Therfore I graunt vnto you that it was very fearefull desperation which made the Manachies renounce the old Testament wholy and cancell part of the new the same also made Ebion reiect all Paules Epistles and other heretikes to do so too for there was nothing fitter for them to vphold those their monstrous opinions then by denying those bookes of holy Scripture But I pray you Campian let vs see how these things make for your purpose or what it is wherein we are so like those forenamed Heretikes Me thinkes it little beseemeth your learning and eloquence to slaunder vs and to pinne vpon our sleeues such odious crimes of auncient heretikes so vndeseruedly If we haue shaken hands with the Manachees if with the Ebionits tell vs wherein But if we are culpable of no such thing the Lord shall iudge your outragious and bold slaunders and maintaine our vprightnes and innocency For who euer thought and spoke more honorably reuerently and with more due regard of the Scriptures then we who haue receiued and imbraced all Scripture giuen by inspiration as the very voice of God himself holding it for the only mysterie of our faith and religion and so resting in it as that we desire no other helpe as necessary to saluation which if we had not with more diligence and deuotion defended then you euer did long ere this the glorie of it had perished and it had bin counted as a dead letter For what haue we done for these many yeeres with more endeuour and diligence then maintaine the maiesty and excellencie of the Scriptures which you haue so vnworthily violated And yet you blush not to match vs with the Manachees and Ebionits who haue violently laid most impure and villanous hands vpon those sacred bookes But say you Luther that most wicked Apostata called the Epistle of S. Iames a contentious swelling barren and strawen Epistle and iudged it vnworthy the spirit of an Apostle still
refuse life or death at our owne pleasure I am not so bound by the authoritie of this booke and testimonie but that I may appeale from his Apochryphall sentence to the tried Oracles of God Now for your booke of the z DVR No Church euer reiected the booke of the Macchabees WHIT. pag. 83. The Church of the Iewes did wholy and the Church of the Christians as I haue shewed before Yea Gregory the great who was Bishop of Rome in Iob. lib. 17. Cap. 16. denies them to be in the Canon And the Fathers though they cite them as he did yet so accounted them for no better DVR Augustine placeth them in the Canon WHIT. pag. 83. Yet Gregory vvho liued 200. yeeres after him denies them to be Canonicall besides Augustine so calleth them because the Church of Christians read them and did not reiect them so as the Ievves did August de ciuitat Deâ— lib. 18. cap. 36. August cont Gauden lib. 2. cap. 23. further Duraeus confesseth that they were neither written by a Prophet nor confirmed by a Prophet then certeine it is they are not in the Canon DVR Christians must be ruled by the iudgment of the Catholike Church WHIT. pag. 85. The Catholike Church cannot make those bookes which are not Canonicall to be Canonicall besides I haue shewed that the Catholike Church doth reiect them Macchabees I make far lesse account of it which Hierome Epiphanius Athanasius Cyprian haue hissed out and the Leodicene Councel hath reiected Moreouer that which is therein spoken of the sacrifice offered vp for the sinnes of the dead is meerely matter of supposall and forced into the text for neither in Iosephus is any such thing to be found in the Greeke neither in Iosephus the sonne of Gerion who yet writ the self-same history in Hebrew is there any mention of any such sacrifice neither had the a DVR The Iews Machzor sheweth that they do pray and offer sacrifice for the dead WHIT. pag. 85. I much â—egard not what the Ievves do now I affirmed that the old Ievves had neither precept nor practise for it Iewes either by precept or practise any such custome to offer sacrifice and prayers for the dead Lastly in the Greeke copy there is that inuersion and disordered placing of the words that you can hardly make any true sense or any whole sentence hang together View the place in the Greeke text and if you can fitly translate it so that all things may hang well together I will yeeld you are a better Grecian then I tooke you for Shall I be tied then by the authority and force of this booke place or sentence to offer with you prayers and oblations for the dead you are too too childish Campian to thinke such things can incline the Students of our Vniuersities to like your side other manner of matter must you bring and of more force if you will gaine our fauourable audience and good conceite for these things long agoe we haue distasted and spit out but who euer said your selfe excepted that this place of the Macchabees doth proue and confirme inuocation of Saints It is one thing to offer sacrifice for the dead and another thing to say that the Saints departed make intercession for vs. As for Iudas b DVR Many things were declared to the Prophets by dreames WHIT. pag. 87. Must I therefore beleeue euery dreame written in the Apochrypha bookes as diuine oracles neither did that dreame make the Macchabees pray to Onia or Jeremie but to the Lord only 2. Mac. 15.21 DVR The Ievves thought that Christ had praied to Eliah vvhen Matth. 27.47 he said Eli Eli Lamb. c. therefore praying to Saints vvas familiar and common vvith them WHIT. pag 87. It is plaine that the Iewes said this only to deriâ—e Christ whom they thought God had forsaken and therefore he fled to Eliah for helpe dreame touching Onia of which we read 2. Macchab. 15. I passe it ouer as a dreame but the matter is not great whether you vnderstand the intercession of the dead or oblations for the dead both is yours and both most false And heere againe you cry out with great vehemency Is it true indeed is there such frowardnes is there such presumption among men heere is neither the one nor the other Campianâ— we haue done nothing frowardly nothing presumptuously I wonder at your frowardnes and presumption that those bookes which God disclaimes as none of his which reuerend antiquitie hath put out of the Canon yet you in your horrible detestable frowardnes presuÌ„ption will bring into the Canon whether God wil or no the holy Fathers denying them the bookes themselues disclaiming it The Caluinists say you haue cut off from the body of the old Testament These are Baâ—uch Tobâ—as Iudâ—th Suâ—â—ent a. Ecâ—â—ejiasâ—icus tâ—â—o Macchabees Hâ—â—ron prae fâ—t in Ier. seauen whole bookes Why you shamelesse Frier did not Hierome a thousand yeeres before Caluin was borne race them out Why then slippe you ouer Hierome and quarrell with Caluin only when they are both in one predicament Heare yet againe what Hierome saith Whatsoeuer is besides these bookes is to be accounted Apocrypha but these seauen bookes which you reckon vp and calumniously auouch that we haue raced them out are besides those Hierome makes mention of they are then to be accounted Apochrypha For most of these we haue sufficiently answered For Baruch Hierome saith We neither reade it nor find it in the Hebrew all the other he casteth out of the Canon Hieron ad Domnion Rogatian and writeth freely Those bookes which are not to be found in the Hebrew neither are any of the 24. are tobe reiected of those who are of ripe yeeres and knowledge But you Iesuits are alway Children as the Egyptian Priest answered Solon touching the Grecians I wonder why you say neuer a word touching the third and fourth booke of Esdra it may be you are ashamed of them being bookes as Hierome writeth full of dotages yet your Church hath had them in great account and the Fathers often times haue alledged testimonies out of them why do you Campian suddeinly dash these bookes out of the Canon If you iudge they must be kept in the Canon why doe you not taxe the Caluinists who as all men know haue cut them out of the old Testament Why when you number vp all those sacred bookes cut out of the Canon by the Caluinists omit you these altogether Or if these be Apocrypha why should we deeme the rest to be Canonicall I am not a little desirous to know what is your iudgement of these bookes but you say further Epist. Iacob Ep ad Heb. Epist. Juda. Epist. 2. Pet. Epist. 2. 3. Ioan. The Lutherans haue cut off Saint Iames Epistle and for spite of it fiue others which somewhere else also were once called in question That these were once and elsewhere in question you cannot deny The
learne from him many new and excellent points This your first reason seemed very iust in your conceit to maintaine your glorious challenge of disputation with some of the learned of our Vniuersities But Campian you had delt a great deale wiser for your self if either you had neuer conceiued thesâ— reasons or streightway vpon the birth smothered them For before by your great challenge you begat a maruelous and wonderfull conceit of your selfe in euery mans mind and now when they shall readâ— those slender reasons of yours they will easily perceiue there is no cause why you should take so much vpon you and they wil tontemptuously deride you as you well deserue hisse you out of their scholes Therefore the counsell which Archidamuâ— gaue to his Sonne headily venturing to right with the Athenians the same doe our Vniuersitie men giue to to you Either adde to thy might or abate of thy mind for no man Campian euer tooke more vpon him and performed lesse than you haue done But let vs see what other things you bring vs. EDMVND CAMPIAN The second Reason which is the right sense of the Scriptures ANother matter that prouoked me to vndertake this enterprize and that enforced mee little to feare these my aduersaries slender armies is the vsuall inclination of my enemie in expounding the Scriptures full of deceite and void of wisdome These things you Philosophers would quickely finde out and therefore I was desirous of your audience Let vs demaund for example sake of our aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion whereby Christ is * This is false for we doe not exclude Christ from the Supper excluded out of the mysticall supper If they name the Gospell we ioyne with them the very words they are for vs. a Matth. 26 Mark 14. Luk. 22. This is my bodie this is my blood which words seemed to b Luther in epist. ad Argen Luther so forcible that when he earnestly desired to be of Zuinglius mind because by that meanes he might haue wrought the Pope most displeasure yet notwithstanding he yeelded being ouercome and vanquished by the most plaine text of Scripture and as vnwillingly confessed that Christ is truly present in the most holy Sacrament as the c Matth. â— Marke 1. diuels in time past being ouercome with miracles with outcries confessed that Christ is the sonne of God Goe to then the written word doth fauour vs the controuersie is about the true meaning of the written word Let vs trie out this by the words thereunto adioyning d Luk. 22. Mattb. 22. Corpus meum quod pro vobis datur sanguis meus qui pro multis eâ—lundetur that is My bodie which is giuen for you my blood which shal be shed for many Yet the matter goeth hard on Caluins side and maketh very manifestly and plainely for vs. What say they else Conferre say they the Scriptures together Agreed The c Iohn 6. Matth. 16. Marc. 14. Luc. 22. Gospels make for vs f 1. Cor. 10. 11. S. Paul accordeth also The words the sentences the whole connexion of Scriptures doe often most reuerently repeate the bread and the wine a not able miracle heauenly foode his flesh his bodie his blood Here is nothing figuratiue nothing obscured by doubtfull speeches yet notwithstanding the aduersaries stand stiffely in their opinion and neuer cease wrangling What shall we then doe I hope antiquitie may be heard and that the reuerend hoare head of Fathers of all former ages to Christs time more nigh farther off from the time of these controuersies may be their iudgement determine this debate which we cannot end amongst our selues being suspected one of another * This is false for in this coÌ„trouersie we willingly admit Antiquity as witnesse They cannot away with that they say then they are betraied They crie out for the sincere and pure word of God they vtterlie reiect all mens commentaries trecherouslie and witlesselie done We will vrge them with the word of God they darken it we call the Saints in heauen for witnesses they refuse them In few words this is their drift that vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guiltie there is no iudgement to be had And so they behaue themselues in euerie controuersie betweene vs. As concerning grace powred into vs from heauen inherent iustice the visible Church the necessity of Baptisme Sacraments and sacrifices meritorious works of good folke hope and feare inequality of offences the authoritie of S. Peter the keyes vowes Euangelicall counsailes and other like controuersies we Catholikes in sundrie of our books in our mutuall conference in churches in schooles haue brought forth many and waightie places of Scripture and haue both tried and applied the same They haue scorned at this We haue alledged the interpretations of the auncient Greeke and Latin Churches they haue refused them What say they then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or else M. Philip Melanthon or certainelie M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfullie entreated vpon these matters Can I imagine any of you to be so stuffed in the nose that being forewarned cannot quicklie smell out this subtile iugling wherfore I confesse plainlie that I am desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersitie scholes that after I haue called these Ruffian-like knights out of their dark dennes into the open and plaine field I may before your eies discomfite them not by my owne strength which am not to bee compared with the worst of an hundred of our side but by the puissance of the cause and certaintie of the truth which we maintaine WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the second Reason WHat could be said touching the Scriptures wee haue heard wee must proceed to heare what can bee said for the interpretation and exposition of them for our vsuall inclination in expounding the Scriptures saith Campian hath encouraged and incited him earnestly to desire this encounter And we also Campian haue long ago desired to buckle with you herein And at length the Lord hath brought you out of your lurking holes into the broad light that we might trie it out with you but what is our disposition you speake of It is full of deceit say you and void of wisdome Thus you being a man of small reach and lesse discretion do conceite our inclination Assuredly the matter you haue now in hand is a cause of great waight for the force the substance and as it were the soule of the Scripture consisteth in the meaning very well said Hierome The Scriptures are not in the letter but in the vnderstanding Contra Lucifer in 1. cap. ad Gila and in another place a DVR Then Luther and Caluin obtruded a new Gospell vpon the Church when they brought in a new sense of the words such as the whole Christian â—orld knew not yea it had a far other sense of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 138. If this last
changed so that it is no maruell if the custome of the Church at one time interpret the Scriptures after this manner another time after that Was there euer the like bouldnes heard of that men would wrest the eternall and immutable word of God which euer hath but one and the same sense to serue the will of the Church that is of the Pope of Rome Thom. 1. â— 1. art 10. besides this you haue made so many h DVâ— The Fathers and Antiquity haue euer made these foure senses of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 163. To faine such foure senses in euery sentence differeth not much from a learned kind of madnes Allegories I confesse many are in the Scriptures but such as the holy Ghost himselfe hath made but to make other Allegories when the words may be vnderstood without a Trope or when the Grammaticall sense is not absurd and repugnant to sound doctrine I thinke is too great bouldnesse and temerity A Tropologicall sense is not a new sense differing from the Grammaticall but one â—s it were with it Finally if the Fathers as men haue erred must we needs follow their errors The Fathers reiected the errors and false interpretations of their predecessors why may not we deale so with them senses of euery place to wit an allegoricall a tropological an anagogicall sense that by your Ledgerdemaine you haue abolished the true and natiue sense Now Campian since you know that this is the manner of your Church in the interpreting of the Scripture than which what can be more corrupt how dare you presume to reprehend our manner of interpretation But we follow no other course then that which the Fathers haue prescribed and which the thing it selfe argues to be most fit For that is our course which Augustine aduised we interpret obscure places by those which are plainer we obserue the phrase and stile of the Scripture we weigh circumstances we compare scripture with scripture we go not one iot from the Analogie of faith They who take this course adioyning their harty prayers that the Lord would open this sealed booke vnto them and teach them the true sense of the scripture shall neuer need to runne to Rome and enquire of that sacred Oracle of the Pope who himselfe neither vnderstandeth the true sense of scripture neither is able to expound them to others But to returne now to Campian what is the vsuall fault he finds in our dealing with the scripture and what be the arguments by which he doth confute vs Let vs demaund saith he for example sake of our Aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion whereby Christ is excluded out of the mysticall Supper We Campian do not i DVR If you place Christs body and your supper so farre asunder how do you not exclude h m from iâ— WHIT. pag. 168. It is true if things that are seuered could no way be ioyned but by a corporall ouching but without it it may fitly be as all beleeuers are ioyned together though they be farre distant and distracted one from another as Iewes Grecians and all other godly make but one body with Christ what is that bond of this vnion but the power of the spirit Such an vnion is this in the SacrameÌ„t and it hath the some bond exclude Christ out of the Supper neither do we otherwise thinke of the Sacrament then both Christ hath taught vs and the old Church hath prescribed We certeinly affirme that the faithfull in the supper receiue whole Christ God and Man we beleeue and teach that they eate his body and drinke his blood Neither doubt we to affirme but that he that comes to the supper and doth not in the supper partake of Christ that he is in danger of condemnation Doe we now exclude Christ from the supper But whosoeuer includeth Christ in the supper as you doe he faineth and forgeth a new Christ to himselfe he confoundeth heauen and eartâ— together he offereth violence to nature and muâ—â— needs admit innumerable absurdities Wherfore we following the scripture as our schole-masters not taking vp any new opinion place the naturall and humane body of Christ in heauen for so the Apostle Peter speaketh whom the heauens must conteine vntill the time that all things be restered Act. 3.21 yet the k DVR Theâ— is Christ as present in Baptisme and in the word and wheresoeuer your faith seekes for him as in the supper yea as present to the Fatherâ— in the old Testament as now to vs. WHIT. pag. 169. So questâ—onlesse he is vnlâ—sse all men be without hope of life and saluation who are depriued of the Supper For John 6.53 yea all Christians communicate of Christ alike as well such as come to the supper as they who cannot partake in it And that he was present to the Fathers it is proued 1. Cor. 10.3.4 vertue the communion the benefit of this body we exclude not from the supper but stifly maintaine that in the supper whole Christ is present to each mans faith This is the summe of our opinion which I no lesse doubt to be the true sense of the scripture then that Christ is Christ or that to be scripture which is scripture This opinion out of all others which we hold haue you made choice of as an example to impugne and gain-say Let vs see now how scholler-like you acquite your selfe If they name the Gospell say you we ioyne with them The very words make for vs. This is my body this is my blood I acknowledge the words do but I enquire now for the sense of them whether they should be so expounded as your Church teacheth that the bread is Transubstantiated into the bodie and the wine into the blood of Christ or by a Trope and in a mysticall sense that the bread is the Sacrament the signe and symboll of the body and so the wine of the blood of Christ as we interpret them Whether opinion hath more truth in it we will now discusse As for that which you tell vs of Luther I suppose you will not expect any answere from me and vndoubtedly in this thing Luther was farre more opposite to your opinion then ours For he euer condemned your Transubstantiation as it is for an accursed inuention and fiction of Satan Luther we acknowledge was a man who though he saw the truth in many things yet he might erre in some things his good things wee embrace but wee are bound by no law to defend his errors But how shal we find out the meaning of this saying Let vs trie out this say you by the words thereto adioyning Nothing can be spoken more truly nothing more fitly nor more ingenuously And verely I could wish you would alwaies doe as you pretend in this place to doe sist out the meaning of the scripture by the circumstances of the words But what are the words adioyning My body which is giuen for you my blood which is shed for you
but as if you had said It is no heynous thing to conceiue and bring forth an Infant Therfore it is none to deuoure it after it is borne heynous act It is therefore a figuratiue speech commanding vs to communicate in the Passion of the Lord. Doe you thinke this reuerend old man dotes or hath he not giuen a iudicious interpretation wel agreeing vnto the iudgement of the auncient I thinke matters yet goe worse on your side then they did before but perhaps you will say these are too auncieÌ„t to serue your turne heare then some of latter times Theod. Theodoret a Gretian and a learned man writeth thus in his Dialogueâ— x DVR Theodorets meaning is that the signes haue not lost their naturall properties though their nature be changed WHIT. pag. 214. If the naturall properties remaine then certeinly their natures must for esseâ—tâ—all properties can neuer be separated from â—heir natures yea in the words follow ng in this very place Theodoret affirmeth that the nature remaineth The mysticall bread saith he remaineth in the nature it first had in the figure and in the forme Mysticall signes doe not lose their proper nature This very speech quite ouerthroweth your Transubstantiation for if their proper nature remaine without doubt nothing can be Transubstantiated or changed Now the bread keepeth his proper and old nature therefore there can be no Transubstantiation but I will ioyne to Theodoret Marcarius whose homilies Morelius had out of the Kings Librarie and hath published them in Greeke and I suppose that you being a Frier will not reiect the testimony of so auncient a Monke he writeth thus In the Church saith he Marcar homil is offered bread and wine y DVR An antitype or resemblance of the type is not the type or figure but the substance signified by that type or figure WHIT. pag. 217. An antitype is neuer properly the substance of the type though sometime it be another type answering to it and both of them are but similitudes figures of the substance And sometimes a type and an antitype are both one and the same as Heb. 9.24 The Tabernacle is called an antitype of heaueÌ„ being the substance signified by the Tabernacle and no answering type to the Tabernacle And in this sense doe diuers of the Fathers vse the word Antitype as Basil Nazianzen Theodoret Chrysost antitypes or resemblances of his body and blood What saith he bread and wine but bread is already turned into flesh and wine into blood Ought a Monke to speake after this manner giue you them so slender a name as similitudes Pardon mee Campian this Monke was neuer vsed to speake after your manner neither was your Transubstantiation as yet come abroad what say you now are you pleased with this reuerend hoare head of the Fathers If you rest not heere it shall be free for you to appeale to any one of the whole reuerend company of the holy Fathers not one of them no not any one of them do I except against For I make no doubt but if they may be iudges you shall euer haue the worst From henceforth therefore do not cast any such calumniâ—â—ions vpon vs and boast your selfe of the bare names of the Fathers for the Fathers both in this controuersie and in many others are firme on our side As for the Fathers of whom you name many but I beleeue haue read but a few I thus answere you We are not the seruants of the Fathers but the sonnes When they prescribe vs any thing out of the Law and diuine authoritie we obey them as our parents If they inioyne any thing against the voyce of the heauenly truth we haue learned not to harken to them but to God You as Vassals and base seruants receiue whatsoeuer the Fathers saie without iudgement or reason being affraid as I think either of the whippe or the halter if euery thing they speake be not Gospell with you In few words say you this is their drift vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guilty there is no iudgement to be had Verily this fits you a great deale better then vs for you will receiue no iudgement but the iudgement of the Pope and Church of Rome which Church and Pope wee haue proued long agoe to be guilty of most heynous crimes and there hath been a perpetuall variance betwixt him and vs. Is there any equity then in your demaunds that we should stand to his iudgement who 〈◊〉 both a person guilty and an aduersarie to vs And well should we deserue to lose the cause if we would be so witlesse contenders Much truer speaketh Augustine Let one matter encounter with another Contra Maxim lib. 3. c. 14. one cause with another one reason with another by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures which are not proper to either side but common z DVR How foolishly do you alledge Augustine who maketh the Scripture a witnes of the truth not a iudge as you would haue it WHIT. pag. 243. If the Scripture be the witnes where shall we find a iudge answerable to this witnes Is it the Church Then must it be of more authority then the Scripture which heere you affirme not neither may it be graÌ„ted for the Scripture is the word of God therefore he that is the iudge of it must be the iudge of God himselfe To deny the Scriptures then the preheminence in iudging is to thrust God out of his throne Therefore as God so the Scripture the word of God hath the authoritie both of a witnesse and a iudge DVR Augustine euer thought that the Popes iudgement was the highest tribunall â—pon earth where all controuersies must be decided WHIT. pag. 244. Augustine neuer thought so but writ the contrary De ciuitat Dei lib. 15. â—ap 3. The Lord saith he hath penned the Scripture which is callâ—d Canonicall because it is of highest authoritie yea hee neuer once pressed the Arrians either with the authoritie of the Pope or of the Councell which vndoubtedly he would haue done neither could he haue done better if the highest iudgement had been in the Church witnesses for both And to their iudgements would we haue you to stand not ours As for other things you speake of I passe them ouer for you will reserue them for vs till another place and wheras you say you haue cited many and worthy places of Scripture we haue weighed those places in their ballances and haue found them to light to proue what you proposed And it is your vse indeed rather to take them by number then by weight But you charged vs with scorning at this and shifting them off we did nothing lesse all we did was to free them from your cauils We haue say you alledged the interpretations of the Greeke and Latin Churches I confesse it but we haue wrung all those weapons from you and haue by them battered all your holds But say you what say they
then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or M. Philip Melangthon or certeinly M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfully intreated vpon those matters Tell vs Frier what should hinder why euery one of these you haue nominated may not as faithfully intreate of thâ—se things as those who haue liued before them in ages past what wanted they which the other had what skill of art what knowledge of the toÌ„gues what other helpes there is not any one of these but hath far surpassed in learning and all deserued commendation the whole society of Iesuits But why doe I compare these burning lights bright starres of piety and religion with the base scumme of your Doctors and this now is another of your reasons why you were so desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersity Schooles If you be Campian sodesirous as you would make the world beleeue I maruell why you are so long a comming for our schooles were euer open for you but you could neuer find the way into them If you hereafter come you shall find many in our schooles that will encounter with you in all kind of learning And heere you end your discourse of the right sense of the Scriptures EDMVND CAMPIAN The third Reason which is the nature of the Church SO soone as the Aduersarie heard the Church named hee waxed wanne yet notwithstanding hee hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well that thereby you may perceiue the ruine and hard shifts of falsehood The enemie perceiued that both in the a Apoc. 2. Psal 7. Isay q. 32. Cant. 6. old and new b Mat. 13. Ephes 5. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. 3. Ioan. 15. Matth. 16. Matth. 18. Testament there is euery where * The scripture maketh honorable mention of the Church therefore the Romane Church is that true Church of Christ of which the Scripture speaketh so â—â—ten honorable mention made of the Church and that it is called a holy citie a fruitfull vineyard an high hill a direct path the only doue the kingdome of heauen the spouse and bodie of Christ the pillar of truth the multitude vnto which the holy Ghost being promised powreth all things needfull to saluatioÌ„ The congregation against all which the gates of hell shall neuer so preuaile that they shall vtterlie extinguish the same The congregation which who so repugneth though he confesse Christ with his mouth yet hath he no more to doe with Christ then hath a Publican and heathen man He durst not say any thing against this openly neither would hee seeme to gain-say that Church whereof the Scriptures so often make mention He kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it self by describing it he * This is false for your definition maketh a true Church took quite away For he hath portraied the Church with such properties as doe altogether hide it and make it as if it were Plato his Idea c Caluin Jnst. lib. 4. cup. 1. Num. 2.3 Apoc. 1.2 3. vnapt to be seene with the senses but subiect to the priuy insight and speculation of a very few men such onely as by speciall inspiration might in their imagination comprehend this arrie bodie and could likewise with a sharpe eye discerne such as are members of this chosen societie what is become of truth where is plaine dealing what Scriptures what iust iudgmentes what Fathers describe the Church in this sorte * Particular Churches are visible therefore the Catholik Church is visible There are Epistles in the Apocalyppes of S. Iohn written by d Act. 8.10.11 seq Christ himselfe to the seauen Churches which were in Asia There are also diuerse Epistles written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundry Churches In the Actes of the Apostles we finde mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged what were those were they knowne to God onelie and to his Saintes or also to all sortes of Christians But truly necessitie is a deadly dart pardon them for they that all these * This is false our doctrine hath been deriued from Christ himselfe vnto vs by the faithfull of all ages 1500 yeeres cannot spie out so much as one time one village one house embrued with their doctrine vntill that vnhappie e Lutherus Moncke by his incestuous marriage had destoured a Nunne dedicated to God by former solemne vowe or vntill that quarrelling Swizer f Zuinglius had conspired against his countrie or vntill that infamous runagate g Caluinus had vndertaken an vsurped authoritie in Geneua If they will haue any Church at all they must needes fetch the same out of blind corners and challenge those for their ancestors whom they neither knew themselues neither any mortall man hath seene except they brage of such forefathers who were manifest heretiques as Aerius Iouinianus Henri Pantal in Chrenogra Heluidius Vigillantius the Image breakers Berengarius Waldensis Lothardus Wyclife Husse of all which they haue begged some peices of their diuelish doctrine Maruaile not though I haue not feared these smoders which if I shall once come to the cleare light I shall easily expell For this is our speech together Tell me dost thou beleeue as the Church doth which flourished these many hundred yeeres past Yea verilie let vs therefore discourse of our countries and times what Church dost thou beleeue The congregation of the faithfull whosenames are vnknowne but it is apparant that many such haue been Is it apparant that manie such haue been To whom it is apparant To God who saith so we that haue receiued our doctrine from God himselfe This is a loude lie how may I beleeue it If thou were feruent in faith thou should know this as assuredlie as thou dost that thou art aliue Can you refraine laughing when you heare such foolish answers All Christian people are commannded to cleaue fast vnto the Church they are warned to take heed lest they be slaine with the spirituall sword they are bid keepe peace in the house of God to commit their soules in trust vnto this pillar of truth there to make all their complaints to take for heathen all such as are cast out of this Church and yet all that haue so many men so manie hundred yeeres been ignorant where that Church is or who belong vnto it will they in darkenesse still stand vpon that point that where or in what place soeuer the Church is there are contained therein onely saints and such as are predestinate to goe to heauen whereby it falleth out that if any man will refuse to obey his prelate he may thinke himselfe to be blamelesse in so doing if hee perswade himselfe that his said prelate hath committed any great offence by that meanes is excommunicated out of the Church When I perceiued that my aduersaries inuented such deuises and that they would not associate themselues to any Church that heretofore hath been
and that when they were quite depriued of the thing it selfe they would needes though with much adoe keepe still the bare name in possession I solaced my selfe with the hope I conceiued of your ripe iudgements yea and I nothing doubted but that assoone as you should find out euen by their owne confessions these their iugling trickes you would straightwaies like plaine honest and wise men cut off such foolish snares framed of set purpose to worke your ouerthrow WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the third Reason WHat is it Campian you further bring vnto vs you propound vnto vs the nature of the Church wherein you bring nothing besides your accustomed manner of vaine and childish oratorie neither worthy the hearing of our Vniuersitie men or answerable to the opinion that is held of you As touching the Church there are many questions and great controuersies and at this day almost all disputations about religion are reduced to this head For your a DVR Jt is well that once you will acknowledge vs to be Catholiks WHIT. pag. 247. Triumph not much for the name my meaning is to giue it you no otherwise thē vsually the name of man is giuen to a dead and dry corpes where nothing is but skinne and bone He is a Catholike not who followeth the popish Apostasie but that professeth the doctrine of Christ Catholikes being tossed with the boysterous stormes of other disputations haue been willing to take b DVR Is it so great a fault to flie into the hauen of the Church WHIT. pag. That is not the fault we taxe you for but that you couer all your errors by pretending the name of the Church And if we by manifest arguments out of the Scripture reproue and refell your heresies you cry out you are the Church and by that thinks to defend all things though they be neuer so absurde harbor in this hauen of the Church Here they dwell here they place all their hopes of safety and victorie heere they hide themselues whensoeuer they are beaten out of the field Therefore they fortifie this sconce with all the skill they can and strengthen it with munition on all sides for which cause I maruell so much the more to find you from whom so great things are expected in this controuersie to be so sleight and shallow for you neither teach nor conclude nor yet propound any thing for your Church against ours which hath in it either forceable reason or proofe But it may be this is but your first skirmish you will happely afterwards deale with vs hand to hand yet I wil trace you out in your owne steps that I may lay hold of you if happely I may find you any where certeine So soone say you as the aduersarie heard the Church but named he waxed wanne yea Campian it made him blush when he perceiued so chast holy a matron so impiously insolently to be abused by you The Church doth euer expell you and deny al commerce with you Yet you as very audacious importunate wooers giue not ouer your suite to compasse her Sure there was no cause why your aduersary should wax so wanne vnlesse he feared some euill measure from such cutthroats as you are Yet notwithstanding say you he hath deuised one thing which I would wish you to note well You will sure acquaint vs with some great and vnheard of matter verily I much desire to know what is this one thing yet I feare it will proue starke nothing and for all your throes you wil bring forth but a mouse As for the honorable praises of the Church you mention we both acknowledge those and speake far greater things of it but verily they agree not to your Church at all for it is the Babylonish whoore a branch cut off from the true Vine a denne of theeues a broad way leading to destruction the kingdome of hell the body of Antichrist a sinke of errors a great mother of fornications the Church of the wicked out of which euery Christian ought to depart which Christ shal one day fearefully destroy and giue her the iust recompence of all her sinnes In vaine then do you reckon vp the praises of the Church vnlesse you can demonstrate that they are proper to your Church which you shall neuer be able to doe so long as Rome standeth He would not say you seeme to gain-say the Church hee kept craftily still the name of the Church but the thing it selfe by his definition he tooke quite away We verily Campian c DVR Why do you not then defend her authoritie but diminish and lessen it yea and horriblie blaspheme affirming that the spouse of Christ may erre and be deceiued WHIT. pag. 248. It is you that blaspheme making the Church equall to God to whom it is only peculiar not to erre not be deceiued For the Church may erre though she be his Spouse but not persist in any deadly error as the Church of the Apostles did when shee thought her husbands kingdome was of this world yea and after shewed her ignorance of the calling of the Gentiles reuerence and honor the Church as our mother and in our definition wee both retaine the name and cleerely set out the nature of the thing it selfe But you hauing lost the Church long since do yet challenge the name and the vaine title of the church Our definition of the Church doth nothing like you why I pray you because we describe the Church by those properties which doe altogether darken and hide it Wee ascribe those properties to the Church which comprise the true nature of the Church whose presence make a Church and their absence marre or destroy a Church But what are those properties which you affirme to darken and hide the Church we verily iudge this to be proper to the true Church to d DVR The Church is not to be sought for by these as by notes but they are to be learned from the Church WHIT. pag. 252. Will it therefore follow because the word is no where else truly preached but in the Church nor the Sacramēts purely administred that the Church is not to be knowne and found out by then Yea the contrary followeth because they are not elsewhere but in the Church therefore by these notes the true Church is to be knovvne and demonstrated For if only Peripatetians professe the Philosophy of Aristotle then that kind of learning pointeth out the Peripatetians and distinguisheth them frō all other sects of Philosophers DVR Thus to search out the Church is but to secke out one vnknowne thing by another which is more vnknowne WHIT. pag. 254. As if the Scripture vvere more hidden and vnknovvne then the Church and the Scripture could better bee knovvne by the Church then it by the Scripture vndoubtedly no. 1. Because the Scripture begeteth and maketh a Church and then is a ting hknovvne vvhen the cause is knovvne 2. I here are many and diuers Churches
Isay 19.21 Icrem 31.31 Ezeâ— 37.26 WHIT. pag. 264. As if the Church of Hierusalem was not the Church of Christ what then happened vnto it which may not befall my others And for the Prophesies you recier they belong to the company of the elect and not to your popish Church to which the Lord neuer promised any such thing Christ verily will neuer endure that his Church should be abolished or perish but it is one thing for it to perish and another to lye hid for a time and not to bee seene he hath promised it shall euer be preserued not that it shall euer be visible and glorious DVR Christ hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world WHIT. pag. 265. Will it therefore follow that his Church shall neuer be hid nor shut vp in a few nothing lesse for hee hath promised that wheresoeuer two or three are gathered together in his name he will be in the middest of them Church of Hierusalem that though it had and by continued succession inioyed the name of the Church yet in very truth it was nothing else but a caue and denne of theeues I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it selfe why it may not be said long agot to haue lost the body of the Church though it keepe still the visard the name and the vestments of the Church What if the Romish Church condemned Luther shall we say therefore Luther is an heretike and that it is the Catholike Church The Church of Ierusalem condemned Christ and him and his they would haue denied to be the true Church if by any colour they could that they might free themselues out of those straights they were brought into But happily they will say there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church 2. Thess 2. But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasie that should be before Christs comming to iudgement i DVR The Fathers haue vnderstood the place of Antichrist or of a defection from the Romane Empire WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hierusalem a man you much esteeme Catech 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasie from the true faith so doth Chrysostome Oecumenius so many others Yea your Diuines of Rhemes haue so expounded it which Apostafie is from religion and the Church as the most auncienâ— Fathers do vnderstand it and Christ prophesied euidently of the small number of his Luke 18.8 When the Soune of man shall come shall he find k DVR Augustine de vultat Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith VVE vnderstand this speech either for the perfection of faith or for the multitude of the wicked or for the small number of the good So doth Hierome contr Luciferanoâ— WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistooke the place must we rest in their exposition we haue Nazianzene cont Arran Theophyla in 28. Luc. Caietan vpon this place against them nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked and the small number of the good doth he not defend our opinion that the number of the wicked shall be great but of the godly small faith on the earth If hardly any faith shal remaine on the earth and the Church cannot be said to be a Church but improperly without faith it followeth necessarily that when Christ commeth their number shall be very small who may truly be called the Church You haue now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vnto vs vnlesse you thinke your selfe better able to puttray it then the holy Ghost himselfe could do who hath set out the Church in farre better colours and manner then I find yours to be in which there is nothing left but painted walles But say you there are Epistles of Christ written to the seauen Churches which were in Asia there are also diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter S. Paul S. Iohn and by others vnto sundrie Churches in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged What then Campian what think you may be inferred hereupon These were not knowne to God only but also to all Christians who euer denied that These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians Philippians Thessalonians Colossians to which Paul writ were particular visible Churches Did we euer seeme to make question whether a Church might be visible or no we verily call all those visible and apparant Churches which professe the pure word of God and hold those rights and Sacraments which are commaunded by Christ And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England Scotland Germanie Fraunce and other parts of Christendome though it greeue you Iesuits they should be so visible and apparant But what kind of reasoning is this l DVR All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church consisteth as on parts are visible therefore the Catholike Church it selfe is visible WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike are not visible because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only but of Churches of the times past and of those which shall be in the time to come But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only yet it followeth not that it must be visible nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible it cannot for when all the parts are growen into oâ—â— then is the whole visible but not each seuerall part so when the seuerall parts may be seene the whole caÌ„not be seen because the parts are noâ—â—ow become one So the coÌ„trary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible the whole cannot be seene Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible therefore the Catholike Church is euer visible Haue you learned such Logicke as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of Iesuits or doe you Campian thinke that these manner of Allegations should goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuersity men but where are those Churches now which were then so flourishing Shew me the Church of Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus Corinthes and the rest Now they are no where to be seene and are no loÌ„ger Churches And that which we haue seen already befal those Churches teach vs I pray you how it may not also betide the Church of Rome And though Rome become a heap yet the Church shall be safe neither shal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to abolish it And at this day there are many flourishing Churches which are equall to your falsly called Catholike Church for the number vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold But you say That for 1500. yeares we could not spie out one towne one village one house seasoned with our doctrine Nay Campian that is very false m DVR The Arrians Mâ—â—cedonians and all other auncient heretikes may by the same probability say as much
Sleidanus Illyricus Kemnisius Caluinus Ioan. Iuellus Others haue spoken of it those things that are most true both how it was called how handled and how it was dismissed and therefore I will not goe about to refute your affections Let it enioy for me that credit and estimation which it can Although euery one knoweth thus much that it was not to bee esteemed a Councell of the whole Christian state An assemblie of certaine men but rather a Conuenticle of a few men running together into the same place There was there present a sort of sillâ—e Friers which did susteine the greatest part of the burthen by disputing writing and playing the Orators For as for the Bishops and chiefe Cardinals they busied their heads about other matters for which they were speciallie assembled But as I said let it be such as it was for I am not offended at your commendations And let the Bishops make their glorious bragges that they long abode in that schoole out of which as yet as farre as I know not many either learned diuines or good Pastors haue come You also vsher in Antonie of Prage greatly congratulating with himselfe for you would needs shew him some kindnes because he made you a Priest Well Campian was created Priest by Antony Archbishop of Prage surely I feare lest you trauelled too far to buy such base wares But now you may celebrate your Masses seeing you are shauen and annointed and made a Priest Moreouer you demaund exceedingly triumph why your Aduersaries called hither and secured by the caution of publike promise did not make all hast to come vnto it In which you are sufficiently answered in the Apoligie of our Church For what should wee doe there or to what end should we vndertake so long a iourney either that being mocked and abused we might returne home againe or being burned in the Councell we should pay for our rashnes For what place of disputation was left amongst those who had euery man plighted their faith to the Bishop of Rome had religiously bound themselues by oath that they would neuer either doe or say any thing againg his dignity and pleasure what therfore might be hoped for from these which might draw any to the disputation besides the * DVR Iohn Husse was not called by the Councell of Constance neither receiued from it any publike promise And whereas you say that it was decreed in this Councell that faith is not to be kept with heretikes it is false WHIT. pag. 352. The Emperour Sigismund gaue him his publike warrant which the Councel most dishonorably infringed And after they had put Husse to death contrary to publike promise they enacted a law that a promise made vnto heretikes by the Emperour or by any King or secular Prince should not hinder any Ecclesiasticall Iudges from proceeding against them according to law Concil Constant Sess 19. calamity of Iohn Husse of Bohemia and Hierome of Prage whom the Father 's burned in the Councell of Constance brought iust cause of feare And yet Husse came to the Councell trusting in the protection of a publike promise Yea but say you the Constantine Fathers made no promise and therefore did not breake any But Sigismonde the Emperor gaue his publike warrant vnto whom it was fit that he should giue credit Notwithstanding comming to the Councell he was presently apprehended and cast into prison and pleading his cause before the Councell he was condemned and burned although Sigismond stormed at it Neither did hee flie as you falsely report neither in truth could hee escape but thus this holy and innocent man was deuoured like a sheepe by furious wolues And what I pray you did the Emperors authoritie commandement or publike warrantize profit him The Emperor say you signed it but the state of Christendome greater than the Emperors did repeale it And who then can be safe if the Emperors beare no sway in the Councell Neither doth the horrible murther of Iohn Husse contrarie to a publike warrant of protection so much discourage vs from comming to your Councels as that decree published by the Councell it selfe That promise is not to be kept with Heretikes Should I then beleeue you who I know will keepe no promise If I doe surely I am worthy to perish after the same manner Hierome of Prage likewise came to the Councell of his owne accord and making publike profession of his faith was burned So that the case of these two than the which all Christendome at that time had not any more holy or learned shall remaine as a perpetuall monument of your treacherie and most horrible crueltie and as a notable caueat vnto all the godly to beware of you for the time to come Concerning Luther whom you cursed Frier call the hatred of God and men the hand and power of God himselfe so defended him that you could neuer hurt him For will was not wanting to you for the destruction of Luther but opportunitie But he was safe say you vpon the Emperors word neither in truth durst the Pope attempt Luthers death after the Emperor had promised him safetie For would Charles the fifth thinke you haue endured it It was not behoofefull for the Pope to haue attempted any thing whereby the Emperors faith might appeare falsified for Charles would neuer so easilie haue put vp such an indignitie as Sigismond had done in time past But say you they doe too much brag in corners in which when they haue but sounded three Greeke words they would seeme to be very wise They might perhaps seeme wise to you who scarcely as I suppose can sound three Greeke words They cannot as you say indure the light which would bring a Scholler into account and would recall him into some place of reckening and is this it Campian which you hunt after a name same places of account to be poynted at with the finger and to be thus spoken of This is the man aduanced to greatest grace excelling in worth and worthy place Doth this grieue you that you are not highly esteemed of and doe not sit in high place Well man proceede in your vertuous courses and goe forward in the way into the which you are entred to your great praise and there is good hope you may ascend vnto such an high place as you are worthie of But wheras you desire That the English Catholikes may obtaine a Patent of impunity if they loue the saluation of their soules surely you require a thing vniust vnequal For what liknes is there in this that learned men should assemble from all parts vnto a publike Councell and that Runnagates should be permitted to returne vnto their countrie We will say you with winged speed hast vnto the Court relying our selues vpon the Princes word And so indeed you safely may for if shee giue her word you may promise vnto your selues assured securitie And I the more easilie beleeue you speake the truth seeing some of you already haue
liued in great distresse yet answered his challenge That subtiltie follie impudency and saucines of Iewel which the fore said writers haue luckily discouered hath done so much good to the coÌ„mon sort of people in England that within my remembrance I dare boldly say there scarcely hapned any one thing more profitable to the afflicted English Church then this ProclamatioÌ„s forth with were set on euery gate that no such * But Bishop Iewel published the whole booke of the Aduersaries that all might reade them bookes might lawfullie be read or kept in their houses whereas Iewels exclamations at Paules Crosse did almost extort the same out of the writers hands But they that came to the scanning of this matter found that the Fathers were all Catholike that is on our side Neither did g Lib. de vita Iuclii Laurence Humphrey conceale this blow giuen him and his fellowes who when he had highly extolled Iewel otherwise noted yet want of * This is false he neuer vpbraided him with any impudencie discretion in him for this one thing that hee for his part had allowed the iudgements of the Fathers in matters of controuersie which when the said Laurence Humphrey without any circumstances plainly protesteth that he neither hath nor will haue any thing to doe I did once also familiarly request Toby Mathew who new for preaching beareth the bell whom for good learning sake and likely seedes of other good vertues I dearely loued that he would plainly tell me whether he that so diligently read the Fathers could be of that side whereunto he laboured to allure his audience He replied no if he both read them and withall beleeued them * This is most false they who giue most to the Fathers are most dissenting from you This his answere is very true and I perswade my selfe that neither hee now nor Mathew Hutton who as I heare is a famous man and bent much to study the Fathers nor any other of the Aduersaries which do the like do otherwise thinke Wherefore yet I might come surely to this combate to encounter with such who as though they had a Wolfe by the eares are inforced to discredit their cause for euer whether they reiect the Fathers or stand to their iudgement For by doing the one they trusse vp their trinckets to flie away and by doing the other they are streightwaies strangled WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the fifth Reason which is the Fathers NOw Campian calleth vpon the Fathers from whom because hee presumes of a firme defence he earnestly desireth a conflict not like those light skirmishes of men in the streets but a serious and constant disputation such as Philosophers vse Campian you see hath a better minde to conuerse with Philosophers than with Diuines for being furnished with Rhetoricke and Logicke and hauing spent most of his time in often declaiming and in inuenting and answering sophisticall captions he doubteth not of a famous victorie if Philosophers were Iudges But Campian these matters are not to be disputed among Philosophers which are otherwhiles deceiued with probabilitie and apparance of truth following that opinion which themselues iudge most agreeable to reason This question in hand must be discusted in the assemblie of most graue and learned Diuines whom no iugling of words no subtiltie in disputation no wit no cunning no youthfull insolent boldnes in quarrelling lying or soolish vaunting can once moue much lesse remoue them from the truth they are perswaded of Here can you not haue libertie to bragge of your counterfeit deuises Philosophie may not sit as iudge in these controuersies neither will those things wherein you chiefely trust be heere of any authority you must leaue your owne erroneous and endlesse walkes and be drawne perforce into the compasse and limits of Scripture and true diuinitie For Christ and his Apostles as that discreete man said in the Nicene Councell commended not Logicke and vaine subtiltie vnto vs Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 8. but a naked opinion consisting in faith and good works And this simple and sincere word of truth will easilie dissolue all your cauils will dispell your artificiall mists and will hold you fast as in a net so that the more you struggle to get out the faster and straiter are you tied But you haste to the Fathers and say If we may once come vnto them the warre is ended Now I must tell you you make too much hast and ouerslippe many things Is the battaile ended say you Why who had the victorie This is verily childish and too ridiculous but yet vsuall in your combats to triumphe before the victorie But I would heare how you haue finished the warre with such admirable expedition For say you the Fathers are as surely ours as Gregorie the thirteenth himselfe the most louing Father of the Children of the Church Giue me leaue to answere you in your owne words My friends who are present can you forbeare langhing What could be affirmed more weakely fondly or absurdly Call you him the most louing Father of the Churches Children whom wee knew to bee their furious and mortall aduersaries And conclude you that other to bee as true as this I graunt aswell the one as the other for both are most false What thinke you haue you not got a famous victorie And thus Campian you vse to make an end of battailes and put to flight great armies of aduersaries What remaineth but that as Conqueror you bee crowned with a Laurell garland and carried with triumph into the Vatican and solace your self many yeeres with your deare Father Gregorie that good old man But now Campian proceed and prosecute the victorie which you haue gotten We haue say you whole volumes of the Fathers which doe fully distincty and purposely declare that Euangelicall religion which we now defend Now you muster and reckon vp your armies whereby you procured this victorie looke well to them you were best and lay sure hold of them lest they reuolt and forsaking you come to our Tents for you force them to bee with you against their wils So that in the most dangerous and important fight they flie vnto vs with speede and doe most sharply assault and batter you But let vs consider your volumes The two fold Hierarchie of Denys the Martyr what orders doth it teach vs what sacrifices what rites Assuredly it teacheth vs nouelties vnheard of in the Scriptures we therefore leaue both them and their author wholy vnto you For though this Denys whosoeuer he were was both for time ancient and in his stile of writing not vnlearned yet that he should be the Arâ—â—pagitâ— whom Paul at Athens conuerted to the Faith is altogether incredible If you aske me a reason of this my opinion I pray you reade diligently and consideratly that which Laurentius Valla and Erasâ—us of Roteradam haue written of him Both of them perswade by no fained surmises but by very weightie reasons and such as I weene you will hardly
the Euangelists and Apostles I wonder you are not ashamed of Hippolytus of whom Harding himselfe was almost ashamed Hippolyt Thinke not that we are ought moued with e DVR VVhy do you reiect this booke of Hippolyte as counterfeite Hierome affirmeth that he was a Bishop and hath written many Commentaries vpon the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 367. Will it therefore follow that this booke is not counterfeit nay it is the rather forged because Hierom doth not number it amongst his bookes Hyppolitus was a very worthy man of whom Eusebius Hierom Theodoret Nicephorus haue made verie honorable mention But this booke is childish in the beginning and in the whole altogether vnanswerable to his eloquence and iudgement authors of so small credit so lately drawne but of darknes as they scarse yet haue learned to looke vpon the light For what was this Hippolytus He writ you say of Antichrist But how worthily that foolish booke of Hippolytus which a certaine man I know not who of late daies published gesseth that the Diuell is Antichrist and faineth many other things which neither can be true nor were euer esteemed for true And yet you marueile we set him so light whom no man regards or reads or almost knowes I can giue you good leaue to recken him for your owne and if you will let him haue a better note in your armie The accusation concerning Cyprian Cyprian is more haynous whom all men reuerence for his singular faith and excellent learning But Caussaeus tearmeth him senselesse and without God They of Magdenburge call him a corrupter of penance Shall I be tied to take vpon me and defend euery speech which any man hath at any time vttered This Caussaeus I neuer saw nor before this euer heard of him But in as much as you so odiously accuse him I suppose him to bee some learned and godly man Vnto that he saith of Cyprian I answere that which I remember I haue read in f DVR That Cyprian which Nazianzene speaketh of was not our Cyprian the Father of the Church WHIT. pag. 367. Nazianzene certainely speaketh of the same Cyprian for see how hee describes him He did not only gouerne the Church of Carthage and all Affricke but the vvhole VVest and almost the East the Southerne and Northerne parts how thinke you is it not the same Cyprian Nazianzene viz. that he was in his youth dissolute and giuen to much vice and worshipped Diuels and vsed the helpe of Diuels He was saith Nazianzene a worshipper of Diuels and after a disciple of Christ. Nazian de Cypri Your vnreasonablenes forceth me to mention those things which I had rather haue concealed For in the Fathers imperfections you sticke fast like a burre and cease not to rub vp the remembrance of those things which you should doe better not once to touch If these things which Nazianzene reporteth of Cyprian be true then Caussaeus might say that Cyprian at that time was foolish and godlesse For I cannot thinke that Caussaeus would write so of him but in regard of those times or that any man would conceiue so iniuriously of that godly Martyr whereas they of Magdenburge complaine that hee corrupted the doctrine of repentance therein they forge against him no new accusation but rather disclose that which all men know to haue been too true Cyprian wrote some thing of Repentance very vnseasonably and vndiscreetly and not he g DVR O singular impudencie O intollerable arrogancie what haue all the Fathers in that age erred so sousely in so great a matter As if they were ignorant that the works of repentance had any vertue any where else but from the merits and blood of Christ. WHIT. pag. 369. What neede all this heate It had been your part to haue shewed that the Fathers who then liued haue spoken nothing vnfitly of repentance so had you confuted that I charge them with which your heare will not cure And what if the Fathers haue thought that mens works haue all their vertue and power from the merit of Christ will it thence follow they haue spoken nothing vnfitly of repentance and works As if Christ by his death had onely merited that we might by our works and merits deserue eternall life or that they who hold the foundation may not build timber or haie vpon it alone but all the holy Fathers of that time were tainted with that error For being desirous by seuere lawes to limit and restraine the euill manners of men they made the greatest part of Repentance to consist in certaine outward disciplines which they appointed which seuere censuring of sinne sharpe punishing of wickednes might happely be borne withall but when they thought the punishment of sinne to be discharged Gods iustice satisfied freedome from sinne and certeine forgiuenes with righteousnes hereby to be procured herein they diminished the power of Christs death they attributed too much to their owne inuentions and in a word depraued the doctrine of repentance because our sinnes are clensed and remoued by no offices or workes of ours but only by the blood and passion of Christ And so your obiection of Repentance is answered We doe not for all this deny the workes of Cyprian nor reiect the bookes of any Father of that age as you falsely affirme seeing both he and they agree with vs in the greatest questions but this is the priuiledge of you and your fellowes that you euen greedily hunt after and pursue whatsoeuer is faulty in any author as if all the Fathers errors serued to make vp the body and faith of your religion Something you say Cyprian wrote to Cornelius which if we giue credit vnto then Peter Martyr and his cōfederats must be held for worse thē adulterous sacrilegious but what that is I cannot so much as couiecture I know that Cyprian sent many letters to Cornelius but none of them accuse vs either of adultery or sacriledge neither can you out of those letters alleadge any thing to our preiudice or your aduantage but this is euer your manner to proue nothing clearely and distinctly but only to name the Fathers and from their names to raise certaine rouing vncertaine suspitions That which you write of Chambers and pillowes I passe ouer as nothing else but scoffing and reproachfull taunts such as is common in euery varlets mouth Now you come to the next age and heere you mention Chrysostome Nazianzene Ambrose and Hierome But to what purpose I pray you Chrysostom for what if Luther do censure Chrysostome sharply because by too much aduauncing our works and merits he obscureth the righteousnes of faith what though Caussaeus find some thing fabulous in Nazianzene Nazian h DVR You freely graunt that Chrysostome Nazianzene Ambrose and Hierome are on Campians side and yet you pleasantly demaund are these Fathers wholy yours we who are then true sonnes doe not challenge them as halfe Fathers but wholy our Fathers WHIT. pag.
370. When did I euer grant Campian so much I should certeinly doe the Fathers great iniury if I should adiudge them for Campian who are so farre different from him And for your kindred with them it is but as the Iewes were Abrahams children for if you were the children of the Fathers you would hold the faith of the Fathers For the Scribes and Pharisies were not the children of Moses because they sate in Moses chaire Neither are they the children of the Saints who hold the places of the Saints as Hierome Neither haue they the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter as Ambrose neither ought faith to be tried by persons but persons by saith as Tertullian hath written We verily loue and duly reuerence the Fathers yet wee acknowledge but one Father in heauen and one teacher which is Christ And if you acknowledge them wholy your Fathers why doe you forsake many of their opinions therefore are these Fathers wholie on your side what is this else but dotage and to speake without witte or feare Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the diuell Ambrose whether any euer said it or no I neuer knew neither is it greatly materiall the best most righteous men may sometimes be so farre bewitched as they doe not in some things perceiue the truth and you doe too openly bewray your malice by labouring to raise an euill opinion of him and to make vs infamous for such speeches as may haue a good construction though at the first they seeme odious Certeinly I haue read many Papists and heard of some all passing shamelesse and malepere but more impudent then your selfe in all my life did I neuer know any There is no end of your lying you feare no mens censure there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speake Euen now you set vpon Beza with a fresh lye He you say hath written that Hierome is as surely damned as the diuell because he was iniurious to the Apostles a blasphemous a wicked and an vngodly man That Beza affirmeth not these things I protest and aâ—ow let any man that will see the place if it be otherwise let me be accounted very infamous For as for those first words that Hierome was damned aswell aâ— the diuell either they are by malicious cauelling fetched out of some other place as all the rest are or altogether forged as the most In the place alledged there is no such thing Concerning that he saith of Iniury and Blasphemy I will set downe Beza his owne words that all men may know your impudency Euen Hierome Beza in annot noui Testam in Act. Apost cap. 23. saith Beza if it be true that Erasmus vpon this place saith of him is not only iniurious to the Apostle in that hee findeth want of moderation in this speech wherin rather appeareth his Diuine courage but also is openly blasphemous in that euen in Christ himselfe he hath found some signe of imperfection Thus far Beza the matter of his complaint is about S. Paules sharpe answere vnto the high Priest in which Hierome as Erasmus testifieth in his Dialogues against Pelagius findeth some want of moderatioÌ„ not only so but euen in Christ himself he looketh for some imperfection of piety which reports of Hierome if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth why might not Beza iustly esteeme him in the one iniurious to the Apostle in the other so blasphemous against Christ For what can bee deuised more vnworthy the Apostle then that in his answere to the high Priest he should shew too much spleene or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ theÌ„ that the grace wherewith he was indued was imperfect But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldnes in wresting the Scriptures wherein he hath most iust cause of complaint for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures or they are so weake and easie of themselues as they may be any way turned And truly he must be very desperate that should defend Hieromes interpretations Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Caluin then of a thousand Augustines Luther is not moued though a thousand Austens Cyprians Churches be against him The answere is ready whosoeuer speaketh truth in that respect is more to be esteemed then a great multitude that could not discerne the truth They therfore that haue obserued the errors of the Fathers either those you haue named or the rest which heere also you recken vp Optatus Athanasius Hilarie Cyrill Epiphanius Basil Vincentius Fulgentius Lee and Gregory of Rome and haue admonished the Readers of them are so farre from malepertnes herein as that coÌ„trary they haue performed a work for the Church needfull profitable and acceptable to all good and godly men For as the true expositions of Scriptures are to bee expounded to the Churches so are the contrary to bee reiected Hierom. Paul August Hierome saith well it is the worst kind of teaching to depraue sentences of Scripture and to draw them perforce to serue our turnes Wherefore we professe with Augustine All writers and their sayings must bee i DVR That trial must not be made by Apostate Monks but by lawfull Pastors and doctors WHIT. pag. 372. And why not I pray you is it because they are Monkes I thinke not or because they haue departed froÌ„ you That is the matter as it none might touch reade examine the scriptures but those who haue plight their troth to you neuer to assent to the Scriptures though they directly coÌ„tradict popish doctrin we would willingly harkeÌ„ to lawfull Pastors examining interpreting the Scriptures such as you haue none Because with you examinatioÌ„s must not be made by the rule of the scriptures but after the wil of the Pope and all your Pastors haue tyed theÌ„selues to the iudgemeÌ„t of the Romish Antichrist that that which they see they wil not see if it displease the Pope by whose spirit they are guided iudged according to the holy Scriptures the authority wherof is more excellent then the whole nature of man is able to conceiue not that I disallow the opinions of the most worthy Fathers but I follow those that come nearest vnto the Scriptures and when the Scripture it selfe is manifest I embrace it before them all Whereas then we consider the sayings of the Fathers and examine them by the light of Scriptures we do here nothing vnwonted nothing boldly or arrogantly but you haue alwaies been fliers of the light of Scriptures as Tertullian speaketh Tertul. de Resurrect and therefore do so diligently prouide for lurking holes in the Fathers that you may alwaies haue some place of refuge For seeing Scriptures faile you what remaineth but that you seeke aide from any euen the meanest But you tell vs why we do so much anoid the Fathers I had rather you would tell vs why you doe so carefully auoide the Scriptures For say you they that cannot away with set times of Fasting must needs be
offended with Basil Naziancene Leo and Chrysostome which haue published excellent Sermons of Lent Christ ordeined no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospell k DVR Who hath but so much as saluted the Fathers and knoweth not this to be salfe for the obseruation of Lent is most auncient and ordained by the Apostles WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be most auncient but not instituted by the Apostles for Apollonius writeth that Montanus first made lawes for let and certaine fasts and Tertullian when hee was become a Montanist writeth as much in his booke wherein he defendeth the fasts of Montanus Againe the Apostles neuer put any religion in choise and change of meats Rom. 14.17 Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1 1â— and so ordeined not Lene Lastly the Churches of the Apostles differed much in this fast both in their times in their kinds of meat as Eusebius â—ocrates record which would neuer haue bin if it had bin Apostolical at least as Papists do affirme who take in for a truth that those Churches would faithfully persist in the Apostles decrees Lent was appointed long after and the manner of obseruing it in those times was not one the same in all Churches We both allow and vse publike and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occasions as for your appointed and yearely solemne fasts we do with good reason reiect them because they are full of superstition and iniurious vnto Christian liberty Our iudgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught August Epist 86. I find it not set downe in any Commandement of the Lord or his Apostles what daies we ought to fast what not Augustine then knew not these your set yearely ceremonies of fasting not your Lenten fast which hath a certeine time and number of daies prescribed Further you say they that haue set their soules to sale for gold lust excesse and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil Chrysostome Hierome and Augustine whose bookes of the profession of Monkes are in euery mans hands what will you censure all to be couetous lustfull gluttonous or ambitious that are not Monkes backe with that foot you were best for feare of your head for neither the Pope nor his Cardinals and Bishops hold it either necessary or conuenient for them to lay aside their abundant wealth continuall pleasures their dainty fare their kingly honor and thrust themselues into a Monasterie whosoeuer liueth after their fashion cannot be well affected to Basil nor any man that is holy l DVR VVhen you are ouercome by the truth you slander our liues and speake euill of our persons WHIT. pag. 377. I do not slander you nor detract from you the world hath vnderstood long agoe what manner of men you vvere If you be grovvne better I should be glad of it But I knovv men haue iudged othervvise of this order and such as did not hate your Monasticall life For the Romish Cardinals and Priors did vvrite thus to the Pope himself There is another abuse amongst the orders of religious men for many are so deformed and out of order that they are a great scandale to the people and hurt much by their example VVe thinke that all orders ought to be abolished For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excesse making themselues drudges vnto their ambitions banquets and delights And to conclude in the whole course of their liues so behauing themselues as becommeth better sensuall and voluptuous persons proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures then graue teachers out of Christs Schoole Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame vpon you and hath done continually and most deseruedly you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault your Prelates and Monkes whose goodly order and straite rule of seuere discipline you report differ as much from other men as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others who giuing themselues wholy ouer to pleasures while the most tooke great paines and alwaies did something whereby to liue thought their life the only true life Such is and hath bin your life that others must seeme not to liue if that be to liue which you haue esteemed But what need I answere you any more of fasting and Monkish orders which haue not one Monke in your whole Church any thing resembling those of auncient time neither do you obserue the old manner of fasting but you goe on and vpbraide vs with fouler matters They that haue brought a bondage vpon mans will which haue taken away Christian funerals which haue burned Saints reliques can they say you be well pleased with Augustine we Campion haue wronged no Saints we haue neither burned their reliques nor taken away their funerals m DVR Therefore you haue taken away the reliques of the Saints and the funerals of Christians as superstitions and iniurious to the maiestie of God WHIT. pag. 370. Are you so vvithout iudgement that you cannot distinguish betvvixt things and the superstitious vse of them It is not these not any comely buriall vve dislike but Popish pompcions funerals and impious vvorshipping of reliques only we could not suffer any prophane superstition iniurious to the Maiestie and glorie of God and for this we haue the direction of God himselfe being our patterne whom we follow and Augustine also herein consenteth with vs But we haue captiuated the will of man and then you say how can we be well affected vnto Augustine well inough why not for say you he writ three bookes of free will A most witles and ridiculous collection Augustine writ three bookes of freewill ergo Augustine affirmeth that men haue freewill If that reason be currant then this also Augustine writ a booke of two soules against the Manichees also a booke of lying another of the quantity of the soule ergo Augustine defendeth two soules in a man ergo he praised lying ergo he attributeth greatnes quantity to the soule I pray you what difference is there I graunt Augustine writ those bookes you mention but they ouerthrow not our opinion who affirme that the will of man is in bondage if euer you had perused those bookes you would neuer haue affirmed it nor once named the bookes in this matter Augustine writ these bookes against the Manichees wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill which is the point in controuersie but of the cause of sinne which proceeded from freewill and he entituled those bookes of freewill because in them he intendeth to shew that the originall and beginning of sinne is to be found in mans freewill not in God This you might easily haue learned out of his retractations for thus he writeth Retract lib. 1.1 q. The discourse was vndertaken for them that deny sin to haue his originall from the free action of our will affirming that from this
euer flourish But it is nothing to vs and you Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion the maintainer of the true faith and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches no maruell then though the most holy Fathers esteemed much the reuerence of this Church vrged the heretikes with the example of it Irenaeus August as a great preiudice vnto them Hence it is that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome therby prouing that the heresies by them refuted were not heard of in the most famous and honorable Church But since that time the course of the Church is turned and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith to detestable falshood Restore vs Campian the old Church of Rome and we will neuer separate our selues from her but of that Church you haue nothing left but the walles and old rubbish yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church And whereas you mention Altars on which the members of Christ are carried and Chalices containing his blood I know well many things concerning Altars are to be found in the auncient Fathers which Altars in Africa were not of stone but r DVR VVhat difference is there the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany and you Altars of stone WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament but the ordination of Bishops which yet was lawfull we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry Is there no difference thinke you woodden as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface and I graunt the members of Christ and his Å¿ DVR Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as is vsuall in all Sacraments For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father where it shall remaine to the end of the world blood are receiued in the holy mysteries but after a heauenly and spiritual manner Epist 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith As for your deuouring of flesh Optatus was not acquainted with it and the auncient Church of Christ not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster They sing say you in their Churches the Creed of Athanasius but they fauour him not and why because he praiseth Antony the Hermit You speake wisely as t DVR But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage as for fishes to leaue the water If you praise Antony so much vvhy do you not follovv him vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse as fishes swim in the Sea so should you be more like to Antony and free these parts from great damage though we were so enuious that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised nay there is somewhat else Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea this Epistle is all counterfeit compacted of many lies and monstrous flattery Prudentius I grant as a u DVR Because he was a Poet forgate hee to be a Christian or did he any thing in verse which infinit learned â—athers haue not done before in prose WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required more then vvhat piety called for and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord Poet sometimes called vpon the Martyrs whose acts he describes in verse and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error As for Vigillantius and Iouinian against whom Hirrâ—â—â—â— writeth most bitterly if they taught those things that are laid to their charge we maintaine them not That * DVR It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers What gaine you by this if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church coÌ„sumed it the beginnings of corruptions in them is growne to an height in you without hope of cure Ambrose should be carefull to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius we willingly permit Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended then we But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes hee neither learned in x DVR Answere me in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images not in the schooles of Christians but of Iewes WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost Deut 5.8 Iosh 24.23 where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship and to cast out of the Church to breake and burne the Images of men though neuer so holy Moses beate the Calfe to powder the holy Ghost commended Hezâ—â—â—a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent though it was set vp by Godâ— authority when the Israelits abused it to superâ—â—â—ion how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images monuments of cursed idolatrie Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia who tooke downe broke the Images of his time I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of
fellowes digged out of their graues to helpe you in your desperate cause heare me Campian that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity offering also to yeeld you the victory if you brought one plaine and manifest authority out of any Father or Councell that same we do all professe and promise and will surely performe it Twentie yeares are expired and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto then your masters before haue had why stay you why sit you still why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause But alas you are no body you haue read nothing you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers or performed lesse then he promised but only that he had yeelded further vnto you then he needed and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures to the authorities of the Fathers which yet he did not as though he distrusted any thing the triall of Scriptures for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie which preuailed with many You say further that you haue conferred sometimes familiarly with Toâ—y Matthew and wâ—â—led him to answere freely whether hee that read the Fathers diligently could bee of that part which â—e fauoured Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things which we would not haue further reported or dispersed yet I doubt not but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere as was both agreeable to the truth and fit for his iudgement and wisdome Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers nor doth our faith depend vpon their word Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others yet may we reade them by their truthes be more learned by the contrary more wary And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers And this also is all our opinions After you haue thus finished your discourse you will now as you say without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies skirmishes warres campes and of your battailes but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides and the issues of battailes vncerteine The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes not in the stoutnes of words EDMVND CAMPIAN The sixt Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers IF euer that saying a Iob. 5. search the Scriptures was loued and liked of by any which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies and from destruction by their paines and teachings haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting with holy Scriptures And finally they exercised themselues euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors vppon the common practise of the Church vpon the succession of Bishops vpon generall Councels vpon Traditions of the Apostles vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs vpon the decrees of Preâ—â—â—s vpon strange signes and marnâ—â—â—â—us â—â—â—racles yet their greatest desire was especially to fill their treatises with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures These they vrge vpon these they make their habitation to these Scriptures as vnto the coate b Cant. 4. armor of valiant souldiers they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place like noble captaines daily desending the Catholike Church which is the citie of God by them kept in good repaire against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie the which thing maketh me the more to maruell at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures Doth he speake as he thinketh I will see then that these most famous writers most auncient Fathers and most holy men Saint Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzen S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ with the Prophets with the Apostles and with the whole furniture of the Bible Grant good Lord that that religion may * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England which those Fathers did had and defended raigne in England I say good Christ grant that that religion may raigne in England that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures Looke what Scriptures they bring wee will bring the same looke what Scriptures they conferre we will conferre the same looke what Scriptures they alleadge we will alleadge the same Art thou also contented with this cough out Sir a Gods name and tell me plainly what you thinke I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly what meanest thou by saying rightly ô now I know after thy owne fancy Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing Then for as much as I am in good hope that in the foresaid Vniuersities that most freshly flourish there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies not grosely but with sharpe iudgement and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially but in equall ballance I will therefore with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility force of Christs Church against a monkesâ— multitude of ragged Rogues WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the sixth Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers I Cannot wel coÌ„iecture Campion what these new foundations of the fathers may bee which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere and haue plainely prooued that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpoÌ„ And it is probable that you thought so your self therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the
fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If iâ— hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may errâ— but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer spâ—â—kâ— the trâ—â—â— these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the
Scriptures If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church vnwritten verities the Popes Canons wee would willingly set vp our rest there but when wee are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures doe not much blame vs if we so farre as you speake subscribe to the fathers as they agree with the Scriptures For you cannot iustly blame that in vs which you confesse is commendable in them d DVR If you thinke Christ commanded all you are greatly deceiued for hovv should the rude and ignorant search the Scriptures vvho as Augustine vvitnesseth must be saued not by sharpnesse of vnderstaÌ„ding but by simplicity of beleeuing Moreouer Christ gaue vnto the people Pastors and Doctors and not the bookes of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 417. Christ verily spake to the people not to the learned and if he commanded all the Iewes to search the Scriptures why not all Christians but that they ought is proued by these places Act. 17.11 Coll. 3.16 Chrysostome vpon that place Hom. 9. Hierome vpon the same Origen in Jsaiam hom 2. Chrysost in Euangel Ioan. hom 13. Further if the people be ignorant you take the way to keepe them so But they verily ought to haue knowledge and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect Augustine as you would haue it doth not maintaine the ignorance of the people only he requireth not of them any subtile knowledge all must beleeue vvhich none can doe vvithout the knovvledge of the Scripture but the same quicknes of vnderstanding is not required in all Finally Christ who gaue them teachers gaue them also the Word neither vvere the Pastors to teach them any thing but the Scriptures vvhy then speake you thus as if these things ordeined one vnder another vvere contrary It is vvorthy the obseruing that in your iudgement Christ gaue not the Scriptures vnto the people if then they reade them they meddle vvith other mens right For Christ commanded vs aswell as them to search the Scriptures That therefore which is inioyned vs both to search it ought to be the purpose of both to finde out And doe you iudge it equall e DVR VVho vvill beleeue that you haue found out that they could not or vvho are you that accuse them of ignorance and error WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning I am so farre from accusing them of ignorance But if the Fathers haue often and greatly erred which you must confesse vvhether you vvill or no vvhy may not vve vvho are commanded to reade the Scriptures asvvvell as they hold fast the truth vve haue found and reiect the errors they haue deliuered vvho vvhile they liued ingenuously confessed themselues ignorant of many things and that they erred not in a fevv and vvould also doe no lesse if they vvere aliue againe that if they haue erred in searching wee should treade in their steps and reiect the trueth wee haue found out For wheresoeuer they find out the truth they sought after wee receiue it and consent with them And therefore Campian make you no doubt we speake vnfeinedly wee will subscribe to the fathers while they consent to the Scriptures Doth this thing please you so it seemeth For you say You will see that these most ancient writers S. Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzene S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come foorth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible But what if they will not obey your commandement neither serue for wages in your tents will you compell them against their willes to beare armes in your campes It is more then you can doe they will not indure themselues to bee thus compelled or forced You call them man by man but they wil not answere to those names yea both these now named by you and all auncient fathers doe proclaime open warre against you and if you please let vs spend a little time in the triall of it This Deuis whosoeuer he was cannot be on your side while you maintaine f DVR VVe Catholikes neither defend nor acknowledge a priuate Massâ— for all Masses are said by a publike Minister of the Church in the name of the whole and for the saluation of all the children of the Church is it offered WHIT. pag. 428. It is childish to contend about the Word you defend such a Masse as the Church knew not in the daies when Denys liued for your Masses are performed by one but the forme he speaketh of is performed by many And what if a publike Minister do it yet that being done of one must needs be priuate specially when either there are no people present or if they be present yet they do nothing but looke on and what profit can come to them by that hee doth as if that meate the Priest eateth feedeth the people Besiâ—es Christ neuer ordained such an offering himselfe once offered is the sacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church Againe what needeth the people once to communicant with him or what greater fruits shall they haue by it if they doe Lastly if the whole people may receiue saluation from that Masse which they neither tast see nor yet dreame of why will you not grant that Christ may be present to our faith though we be farre disioyned from his body priuate Masse For he hath described the publike communion of the whole Church such as Christ at the first instituted and the ancient Church euer held The very same thing doth Iustine the Philosopher and martyr Iustin. Apol 2. who in his Apologie before Anthony the Emperour layd open the order of discipline which Christ held in his holy assembly At that time the whole people receiued g DVR Jf you had but lightly read ouer Iustine you would neuer haue been so impudent for hee altogether alloweth our iudgement and no vvhere speaketh he of bread and wine giuen to the people WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place you might haue seene the contrary to your opinion and to all that you say his owne words shall manifest all They who with vs are called Deacons giue to euery one that is present part of the bread wine and water for which thankes are giuen Can any thing be said more contrary to your and more manifest for our opinion bread wine now with you they receiue neither h DVR Yet Cyprian vvrit thus Epist 55. The premacie is giuen to S. Peter that it might appeare there is one Church and one chaire WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words but Pamelius vvho hath corrupted Cyprian bringing out of the margent into the text as appeareth by auncient copies And Gratian also obserued the same Causa 24.9.1 loquitur Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter Cyprian de Simplicitat praelat Lib. 1. Epist 4. and directly affirmeth that they haue like honour
and authoritie with him and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome Therefore he must needes deest your Pope who preferreth himselfe both in dignity authority before all other Bishops from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales i DVR Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop And in his discourse 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed And so not things done in Afrike at Rome 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke for which he must giue an account Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole nor the administration of all causes finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questioÌ„ Lactan. 2. cap. 19. k DVR Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians but of the Idols of the Heathen vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth besides the Ieves had their Cherubins WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols but Images such as your Church is full of and so can there be no religion in it Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs but made of the earth as theirs who pretended for themselues as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do that they vvorshipped not the Images but the God expressed by them Further for the Cherubins they were placed in the most holy place into vvhich the people might not enter not yet looke in and shevv vs particular precepts for yours as they had for theirs and vve haue done But he that commanded theirs forbiddeth euery vvhere all others There can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion Athanasius affirmeth Athanas conts a Gentas That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of your l DVR VVill not all your Vniuersity men account you a cosener vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius say asmuch as I affirme The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues vvhy do you reptoach me but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers he doth but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures but as Commentaries vpon them For saith he by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture These vvords make not for you neither against vs therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite traditions Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women Epipham lib. 3. Haeres 79. who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship and condemneth all that superstition m DVR Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints but reproueth â—omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary aâ— to a Gâ—â—ldâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only his vvords are plaine â—et none of the Saints be adored The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none saith he worship the Virgine Mary What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women but also men and all mortall wights n DVR No Câ—tâ—oâ—ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints I pray you what may be the meaning of this you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women what Scriputre â—peaketh any thing of this matter Then answere your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary or for her whether soeuer Epiphanius saith It is foolish strange and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints And no man is found either so greatly couetous or so little superstâ—tious but he voweth somewhat to some Saint specially to the Virgin Mary offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary Basil in Epist ad Cleric Neocaesariae Basil is the author that in his dayes there was a o DVR Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil reade the place and you shall find these words there The câ—â—ome we now keepe is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt Afrike Thebes Palestine and all who vse singing of Psalmes custome in all Churches that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies But in your Churches the people can p DVR As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈◊〉 what a foolish dreame is this WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle then watch with you for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6 He that speaketh a strange tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God vers 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profit you Strange tongues then profit not vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes q DVR Gregorie neuer thought so but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words Hierome the Philosopher saith he proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for and more profitable to the end he might make choice of it And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only but for all others who beare the same nature with him he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life Doth he not now preferre this life and from the praise he giueth the other he hath somewhat detracted when he sheweth that it is only for themselues and so lesse
profitable and fruitfull Finally what is a Christian life but that which is spent in the duties of charity for all Christians are bound vnto these duties Then notwithstanding all these Gregorie is still with vs. Nazianzen de haer Philosoph Nazianzene speaketh no lesse honourablie of this ciuill and sociable life than of the solitarie life of Monkes which your cloister men cannot indure Ambros in Rom. cap. 1. r DVR Ambrose codemneth suffragators not intercessors that is such as might informe God what we are not such as might commeÌ„d our vvants to him WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants without an intercessor as what we are without a suffragator If he do why should the one be allowed more then the other This new distinction of yours I thinke our Vniuersity men neither know not wil acknowledge or what is intercessioÌ„ but a suffragation or what do you els desire of the Saints but that they would speake fauourablie for you to God Ambrose enueigheth bitterly against them who thinke it necessary for them when they would goe to God to vse some mediatours as men doe in courts of Princes before they can bee brought to the King himselfe they must seeke the fauour of some of his neere attendants Doth not this thing touch you doth not this speech draw blood of you who neuer aske any thing of God in your prayers but first you seeke some of the Saints to bee a mediatour for you to whom you commend the care of your businesse and requests Hieron Ep. Å¿ DVR Hierome neuer vvriteth thus but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest and a Deacon as was betwixt Aaron and his sonnes and the Leuites Epist ad Euagr. And if there be equality it is in iurisdiction not in povver of order WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely that the Apostle doth plainly teach that a Bishop and a Priest are all one and this he proueth by many testimonies of the Scripture And vpon the 1. chap. to Titus hee affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is aboue a Priest by custome not by Gods ordinance And so must that be vnderstood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle And where you acknowledge the same iurisdiction of both by the law of God which happely slipped from you vnawares their vnequall power must needs be only by the law of man Hierome did too much contemne your Pope and other your glorious Bishops when hee writeth that a Priest and a Bishop by the law of God are all one doe you iudge him worthy to bee a Father of the Romish Church the Bishop whereof you make not onely to be farre aboue all Priests but also all Bishops t DVR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it least any of the Manichies vvho superstitiously and vvickedly abstained from blood might looke among the Catholikes WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answere though your Gratian bee against it But who seeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause who make the Manichies the first author of the dismembring of the Supper But whosoeuer did it Gelatius censureth it thus The diuision of one and the same mystery cannot bee without great sacriledge And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacriledge Gelasius who himselfe was a Bishop of Rome condemneth your drie and maimed supper as Sacrilegious and strictly commandeth De consecrat dist 2. Comperimus Vigil lib. 1. cont Eutych that either the whole be receiued or it be wholly omitted Will the authoritie of the Pope moue you no whit at all Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from vs in his humane nature u DVR Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrevv from the vvorld the visible presence of his humanity and not the humane nature himselfe WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after shew the cleane contrary He therfore is vvith vs and not vvith vs because whom he left and from whom he departed in his humanity he hath not left nor forsaken in his Diuinity And againe in lib. 4. contr Eutych vvhen he vvas in the earth hee vvas not in heauen and novv that he is in heauen hee is not in the earth And againe hee vvas circumscribed in a place according to his humane nature and not conteined in a place according to his Diuinity this is the Catholike confession and faith vvhich the Apostles haue deliuered the Martyrs haue confirmed and the faithfull haue kept to this day If this be the Catholike faith then are not you Catholikes vvho iudge farre otheâ—vvise of the humanity of Christ The Sonne of God in his humane nature is gone from vs but in his diuine nature hee is alwayes with vs whereas you say Christ is present in both natures * DVR Chrysostome because hee savv many so addicted and giuen to theaters stage plaies and impious Interludes did thus admonish them lest they should distast the reading of the Scriptures WHIT pag. 458. Be it so haue you also no impious places and spectacles and prophane exercises And yet vvith you any thing is lawfull saue reading of the Scriptures But vvho so readeth Chrysostome in Ioan. hom 13. in Epist. ad Coloss hom 9. de Lazaro hom 3. shall find that he required this simplie necessarily and generally of all men Chrysostome exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles Chrysost ad Coloss hom 9. in Ioan. hom 8. reade the Scriptures and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife the father with his children would conferre among themselues of the Scriptures But this neither can nor lawfully may be done in your Church yea it is a certaine proofe of an heretique for any to haue the Bible in his house What shall I say of Augustine who in the greatest and most principall controuersies as of grace predestination free will iustification the Scripture the Law the Gospel sinne good workes Sacraments and Church is wholly and fully ours I should neuer make an end if I should pursue particulars and collect but a little of euery thing Gregor lib. 4. Epist. 30. 34. Gregory the great though he was a Bishop of Rome yet will he take our part against you For tell mee doth hee not touch your Pope to the quicke when peremptorily he affirmed that whosoeuer should call himselfe the x DVR Gregory condemned Iohn because he sought for such an authority ouer all Bishops as the Emperour had ouer the Kings vvho are subiect vnto them WHIT. pag. 460. Whether Iohn of Constantinople sought such a povver or no it is not certaine but no man can be ignorant how the Pope affecteth it And long ago hath not only got authority ouer the Bishops but hath subdued the Emperour
new Sacraments new sacrifice and new doctrine of religion There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greeke neither abroad nor at home which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his bookes of so notable a matter though it had been neuer so slenderly Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough if the Historie which is a faithfull witnes of antiquity and the life of memory do in many and sundry places copiously entreate and spoake of that faith which we professe and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirme that that faith which the aduersaries do thrust vpon vs was 〈◊〉 allowed in the Catholike Church then are all the Historiographers on our part and the inuasions of the aduersaries are not friuolous and such as can make no man afraid except it bee first granted that all Christians throughout euery age haue fallen to grosse infidelity and consequently into the deepe pit of hell vntill that Frier Luther committed aduoutrie with the Nunne Katherine Bore WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the seauenth Reason which is the Historie NOw you call vs to Historie the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity and all that haue taken paines in publishing the Ecclesiasticall Historie their names you set downe and like dumbe showes you carry them in great pompe as though Campian the particular naming of all that haue published any Historie were sufficient for the remembrance and searching out the monuments of Antiquitie What insolent new kind of Logicke is this to recken vp the Historians of the whole world and of particular countries and then conclude they are your owne Haue you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge that whatsoeuer you lay your hands vpon shall by and by become yours we haue long since perused the auncient Chronicles wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set downe and we find not that they fauour you more then vs. If in them be some things against vs many moe and more waightie testimonies they haue against you and such as giue you a deadlie wound else would wee neuer haue collected the Histories of the auncient Church so accuratelie and diligentlie penning them exactlie and distinguishing the seuerall ages and times neither would wee haue published them in the world if they were so contrarie vnto vs as you surmise for who haue taken more paines to finde out or more faithfullie restored the Ecclesiasticall Histories then our men without whose labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlinesse We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie and seeing you appeale to auncient Histories wee condiscend yet with this caution that we be not tied to those things which were apparantly blemishes in the auncient Church Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done doe not so much teach vs what ought to bee done but haue an eye to that which was then performed and by that meanes set downe many things worthie of reprehension rather than imitation and for the most part it happens that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ and euer the later writer the more corrupt But here you exclaime that wee seeke euasions and very peruersly you slaunder vs that because wee doe not allowe all wee refuse all They that reforme what is amisse doe not blame the rest that is not faultie Striue while you list Campian and crie out of mazes and labyrinths at length will you nill you by the cares must wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures And herein Campian you very much a DVR And vvhy may not Campian trumph for what impudencie is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies and yet you cannot tell vvhen one of them euer began in vvhat Popes time by vvhat meanes hovv it increased in the Church WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons not raylings But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt because wee cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt but being so manifest as it is what need we search the Histories to shew the beginning what I pray if you see a man sicke of the pestilence a citie corrupt with riote and wickednesse a house ruinous and readie to fall a shippe sincking will you deny all these vnlesse one can tell you the time when he began to be sicke the meanes how the city grew corrupt who vvas ovvnet and in vvhat yeare the house grevv ruinous and in vvhat daâ—e the shippe began first to leake And vvhat is the force of your reason and demaund other then this But doe not your owne Histories tell vvhen and by vvhom innouations and corruptions entred see a fevv of them Hee that first vsurped authoritie ouer other Churches vvas Pope Victor after him Zozimus Boniface Celestiue and theâ— successura Pope Syricius first foâ—bad Priests marriages The Manichies first denied the Cup to the people The Nicene Councell first ordained vvorshipping of Images Pope Nicolas the second first taught the bodie of Christ must carnally be handled broken and eaten Pope Jnnocent the third first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation Boniface the third that the Pope vvas the head of all Churches Gregorie the great taught Purgatorie first for a certeine truth The Florentine Councell that the Pope was aboue Councels Jnnocent the third brought in auricular confession If these vvere not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more triumph when you demaund at what time vnder what Bishop by what way and proceeding was a new religion spread ouer the Citie of Rome and the whole world and doe not doubt but that if any change and declining had been many writers would haue made mention of it or diuers or one at the least It is hard for vs to answere at what time neither is it necessarie to set downe the very instant of time All things were not at once ouerturned in the Church of Rome sinne and wickednes came to his height by degrees and by leisure to ripenes the haires of our head are not all gray of a suddaine neither doth any thing suddainely come to his maturitie and the growth of euery thing appeareth long after This is manifest in such things as hauing small beginning goe on forward vnto a greater quantitie vntill they come to perfection you cannot deny but there was a great alteration of Religion in the Church of b DVR It is not hard to knovv the heresies of the Ievves for Philastrius Epiphanius Iosephus haue vvritten of them WHIT pag. 484. It is as easie to know the heresies of Christians being more in the Christian Church then euer vvere in the Church of Ierusalem and of these also haue many bookes been vvritten Ierusalem what then was the change all at once shew vs then how those nouelties entred into the Church what time what way who
was Bishop and by what proceedings it increased You Romanisâ— condemne the Greeke Church and yet it is nothing so corrupt as yours c DVR You require an easie thing for the authors of the heresies of the Greeke Church vve can easily number out of their stories Samosatenus Eutyches Sergius Arrius Nestorius Macedonius and such like WHIT. pag. 486. It is a vvonder that you vvill obiect these heresies vnto the Greeke Church vvhen you cannot bee ignorant but that moe and more horrible heresies sprung vp in the Romish Church and almost in the middest of Rome For Valentinus Marcion Cerdon Florentius Blasius Tatianus Nouatus Pelagius Julianus Celestinus and other such did broach most pestiferous heresies in Rome If you ansvvere the Latin Church condemned these I can ansvvere so for the Greeke Church And if you thinke you haue obiected vvell in numbring certeine heresies of the Greeke Church you may thinke I haue ansvvered asvvell in reckoning the heresies of the Latin Church Declare now vnto me those circumstances of time in the declining of this Church which you demaund for your owne Poynt out the time the Bishop and the growth of their Apostasie As the alteration of these Churches was then easie to bee discerned when it first beganne though now it be very hard to finde out those circumstances so we see plainely a great change in the Church of Rome yet can we not certainely pronounce the seuerall times of their seuerall declining Many are manifest which were too long to rehearse and those are distinguished according to their times and seasons The case was with the Church of Rome as we see it is in a great building for as a house which is strongly built at the first continueth so of it selfe a long time after sound and whole but if for a time it be left and neglected it beginneth in some place to decay and to bee full of chinkes which in time waxe big by degrees till they threaten ruine to the posts and roofes themselues and at length by this meanes the whole building is ruinated and falleth downe so the Romane Church in processe of time declined from her auncient estate and by the infection of error and superstition daily preuailing at length shee lost the very spirit and life of the Church Eusebius reporteth that one Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus had written of the Church that she was whilest the Apostles liued a chaste and vndefiled Virgin For then they that would haue altered the holy paterne of sound doctrine did it faintly and fearefully not daring to creepe out of their holes d DVR O horrible fact ó intolerable vvickednes vvith vvhat face can you thus speak if you remember hovv Christ promised his spouse perpetuall preseruation Hose 2.20 Isa 59.21 Psal 131.17 and such like WHIT pag. 4â—8 If your arguments vvere as great as your outeries vvho could deale vvith you That the Church may be corrupted see these places Matth. 13.25 1. Cor. 5.6 2. Cor. 11.3 Isay 1.21 Gal. 1.6 and 2.1 Further vvhat haue I else spoken that Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. 10. haue not before time vvritten And vvhen I vvrit these things I remembred vvell those promises and many other of that kind But I knovv that they belong to the Church of the elect and hinder not but that particular Churches may bee corrupted by error and false doctrine DVR Eusebius doth not anouch these from Polycrates but from Hegesippus vvho called the Church a Virgin because heretikes as yet had not openly opposed her and corrupted the seates of the Apostles and did not say that shee vvas corrupted after them WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great vvhich of them spake the vvords for vvhosoeuer shall vvergh the vvords shall see that the sense of them is as I haue said And if the Church vvas euer to remaine a chast and pure Virgin hovv foolish should that Hegesippus be in affirming that hitherto she remained a Virgin or vvhat may his meaning bee else then that the Apostles being dead she began to be corrupted vvhich the vvords follovving proue vvhen that age vvas ouerpassed then she began to be corrupted vvith impious error Yea and vvhen you say that as yet heretikes had not assaulted her nor inuaded the tents of the Apostles either you say nothing or you graunt that after the Apostles time they did assault her and preuaile against her But after that the Apostles departed vnto the heauenly mansions and none of that age left that had been hearers of Christ himselfe neither any of the Apostles liuing then began abhominable error to gather strength and openly in the Churches to aduaunce it selfe What more pregnant testimonie of antiquitie and historie can you desire Whilest the Apostles liued the Church was a Virgin assoone as they were dead she became corrupted and the mischiefe no doubt in time increased and spread it selfe abroade But I woonder that this e DVR Nay rather if hee were liuing hee would wonder at your foâ—lie who are either so ignorant or so forgetfull that you obserue not hovv Polycrates sent letters to Pope Victor touching the new coÌ„trouersie about the cele bration of the Passeouer WHIT. pag. 492. It seemeth in policie you passe ouer this place in silence without answere and tel vs a tale of another different thing which affordeth vs a strong argument against the tyranny of the Pope for if the most learned and holy Bishops of the Greeke Churches dissented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Easter and would not follow the custome of the Pope and Romish Church though the Pope sought it by all meanes who can doubt but that this supreame power of the Pope ouer all Churches vnder Christ as his Vicar was vnknowne and vnheard of among them Polycrates was either so ignorant or forgetfull that hee considered not this that the Pope of Rome was left vnto the Church in the Apostles roomes to defend this Virgin and preserue her chastitie Why calleth hee the Church a Virgin Because the Apostles were liuing by whom her audacious aduersaries were alwaies discouraged and discomforted But either in this respect the Church now wanteth a Pope or else shee needes him not at all But Polycrates although there were none left to preserue the puritie of this Virgin bewaileth her want as you see which surely had been vnaduifedly done if his opinion had been that this charge belonged to the Bishop of Rome The Church then from the Apostles time began to decline and inclined to the apostasie which the Apostle did foretell should be and we see now fulfilled Then those Wolues of whom the Apostle did forewarne Act. â—0 19 came into the Church and ceased not to destroy the flocke Then those Antichrists whereof Iohn affirmeth some were in his time 1. Ioh. â— 18 began to vndertake the worke which after was perfected and accomplished I might heere shew you many euident tokens of your
there can be any grace more ancient than faith But say you how can they beleeue who doe not yet vnderstand whether they liue or no and do they therfore not liue because they vnderstand not that they liue It is absurd Wherefore if they liue although they doe not vnderstand they do so a DVR But speake plainly if Infants haue no faith your nevv Euangelicall doctrine teaching that the force of the Sacrament doth depend vpon the faith of the receiuers must vanish WHIT. pag. 681. I do no thinke that Infants do beleeue there being neither reason nor Scripture for it And I answere that is not our doctrine you faine to bee Wee say that to men of yeares without saith it is a Sacrament but not a sauing Sacrament to children of beleeuing patents though they cannot for their yeares beleeue yet it is a sauing Sacrament as Circumcision was to the Infants of the Iewes For wee doubt not but the Spirit of God is powerfull vnto them after a hidden and vvonderfull manner As in the examples of Iacob Ieremie Iohn Baptist and others happily also they doe beleeue albeit they perceiue not that they beleeue That is hard say you bee it so Nor doe I speake these things as if I were wholy of that mind but to the end I may fish out your mind which our Vniuersity mâ—n doubtles make great account of But let vs heare Luthers medicine It is better saith he to omit it because except the Infant beleeue he is washed â—eâ—er a whit But this medicine came out of your shop not out of Luthers And indeed you haue offred vs many such like medicines very vnsauourie and ill fauouredly seasoned so that all your confections seeme to be corrupt But Luther did neuer perswade that Baptisme should be omitted he was alwaies earnest on that part that Baptisme should be giuen to Infants and therefore you are so much the more vniust in this place in that you would marre Luthers opinion with your medley For these things are so alledged by you as if Luther said it were better to omit Baptisme Therfore let vs heare Luther himself and let Campians medicine alone And yet saith he we deny not that Infants are to be baptised Luther aduers Cocâ—laeum nor do we anow that they receiue Baptisme without faith but wee say that at Baptisme they do beleeue by the power of the Word He addeth Or otherwise there would bee meere and intolerable lies when the Baptiser demandeth of the Infant whether he do beleeue as intending not to baptise vnlesse it be answered in the childâ— stead I beleeue Wherfore doth the Minister aske whether he do beleeue if iâ— be a certaine thing that they do not beleeue as Cocleus maintaineth Then he concludeth thus But we hold that Infants are not to be Baptised â—f it be true that they in Baptisme do not beleeue Luther then maintaineth and determineth that little children do beleeue and he reproueth the Papists because they teach things contrary each to other while they deny that an Infant hath faith and yet to the end he may be baptised they require faith of him Who seeth not to what these things may be referred so that hee must needs bee a most malicious man who maketh Luther in these words a perswader of so wicked an opinion And these things doe they speake say you being doubâ—full in their own mind what to maintaine positiuely Howsoeuer some doe doubt of the faith of infants yet wee all determine cleerely and positiuely that they are to be baptised Therfore there was no need that you should send for that Pacimentanâ— dayes-man who was alwayes more enclining to your side than to ours But why doe you obiect the Anabaptists to vs who hate vs much more eagerly than you and not without cause b DVR I knovv you doe fight hotly against the Anabaptists but vvith vvhat vveapons Caluin vvas glad to flie to the Tradition of the Church for be brought no place of Scripture against them neither could be bring any WHIT. pag. 685. You betray the Scriptures that you may establish Traditions What can be spoken either more contumeliously against the Scriptures or more for the aduantage of Anabaptists then that this their heresie cannot be coÌ„futed by Scripture But are you ignorant that Caluin vsed Scripture to refell this And yet he produceth these places Gen. 17.4 Matth. 19.13 28.19 which sufficiently ouerthrow the Anabaptists And in the place you alleadge hee rather renounceth Traditions then flieth to them for any defence Jast lib. 4 cap. 16. sect 8. for we haue both coÌ„uicted them for heretikes by our arguments and also haue expulsed them as seditious and pernicious men out of our Commonwealths who if they dwelt not with you could find no place to remaine in through the Christian world You passe ouer the rest of the Sacraments which I acknowledge to bee none at all nor doe I vnderstand which is that beast of many heads whereof you make mention vnlesse perhaps you meane that threeheaded beast of which Iohn writeth many things in the Reuelation Hitherto Campian Of Manners you haue examined certaine opinions and positions of our men in all which you haue found as yet neuer a Paradoxe For either the things that you obiect are such as that nothing can be truer then they or else they are craftily and treacherously wrested by you into a peruerse meaning But now as if you were some new Censurer and Master of the auncient discipline and seuerity you make search into our manners not I thinke to make them better but to make them seeme much worse than they be Although he that reproueth the manners of other it were meet that he should bee without fault And is there so great a change made of Rome vpon the sodaine is their life now such are their manners begunne to bee so goodly that you being returned theÌ„ce a Frier dare striue with vs about vertue shamefastnes and honâ—stie howsoeuer there be here many things done which ought not to be yet if you shall say that there is as great impunity and licenciousnes of sinnes in England as you your selfe haue seene at Rome the very towre of your religion and kingdome all men will iudge you to bee too too impudent Wherefore then doe you propose to vs those peeces of faults in Luther seeing among you not only some fragments of vices but huge bodies of the greatest crimes are plainely seene surely as long as those publike stewes and dens of whoores stand still in Rome you could scarce honestly make mention of manners But what are these peeces of faults in Luther Is it for that you reproue some crime in his life but that you neither can do nor go about to doe You obiect certaine sayings caught out of his bookes and as you are wont torne from the rest of the body of the sentence which seeme presently as soone as they bee propounded by you to make shew of
troubled thoughts But holy men diligently prepared themselues and so came to this Sacrament hauing quiet minds free froÌ„ guilt of sinne And in the Primitiue times they who had fallen were not admitted to the Eucharist but after coÌ„fession full satisfaction made for their sins And then a Deacon was wont to crie Holy things are for holy men WHIT. pag. 718. You haue not tasted what true faith is if you thinke all sorrowes doubts are remoued so soone as faith is begotten The Prophet often remembreth his sorrowes Psal 42.5.6 32.4 And this all the faithfull haue experience of and yet are vpheld by their faith They are the best prepared who haue the greatest sorrowes for their sins and in the word and Sacrament seeke a salue for them For wherefore was the supper ordained but to strengthen and confirme our faith Therfore the best prepared haue many temptations and sorrowes in themselues The custome of the Church proueth nothing against this For will you account them wicked and prophane whose consciences are frighted with the sense and bitter sorrowes for their sinnes So shall you wickedly condemne the most holie seruants of God Only they do rightly receiue the Lords Supper who bring sorrowful afflicted coÌ„founded consciences And so it is indeed for they are no right receiuers who trusting to their owne merits come audaciously but they who heing opprested with the greatues of their sinnes Psal 51.19 doe desire to bee eased For they which are whole desire not the Physitian A contrite and broken hart is an acceptable sacrifice to God wherefore they which haue greatest feeling of their sinnes and sorrow for them to them that heauenly food is wont to bee most wholesome Good Lord who would euer thinke it might come to passe that anie Christian should dislike these things But is there any thing else x DVR VVho knoweth not that the Nouatians vvere condemned of the vvhole Church for denying this authoritie to the Priests And that it vvas an old custome of the Church as Tertullian hath it that penitentials vvere sent to none but to the Priests to whom as Ambrole Hierome Chrysostome writ the keyes and power of binding and loosing are committed WHIT. pag. 720. That you speake of the Nouatians and the custome of the Church toucheth not Luther for they admitted neither repentance not confession in the Church did Luther euer any such thing or did he euer reproue the custome of the Church that they who had offended publikely did publikely testiue their repentance It was a priuate auricular confession of all sinnes which hee reproued which is without testimonie either of Scripture of sincere Antiquitie which made Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople put it out of the Church for the offence of a Deacon For the Fathers by which you would establish your keyes we haue against them Augustine in Ioan. tract 124. and Theophil in Matth. 18. You may confesse you sinnes but to any bodie y DVR VVhat is then more manifest then that hee may giue a Sacrament which neuer inteÌ„ded 〈◊〉 VVe beleeue that Priests as Iudges can absolue the guilty from their sins WHIT pag. 722. When as faith dependeth vpon no mans will and faith bringeth remission of sins another mans will caÌ„not hinder but that they who beleeue may haue the pardon of their sins For that to the Centurion Mat. 8.13 is to euâ—ry man As thou beleeuest so bâ—â—t â—â—to thee not as another wil. If absolution were then in the Ministers will it should not be as men beleeue but as their Minister thinketh than vvhich nothing can be more absâ—â—d What skilleth it vvhether the Minister be in â—est or earnest if I beleeue seriously his iest shall not hurt mee And what is more miâ—erable then to baâ—g the dignitie of the Sacrament vpon the thought and intention of the Minister which if it were true of SacrameÌ„ts yet what is that to absolution which neuer was a SacrameÌ„t wheras you say you beleeue that the Priesâ—â— do absolue men as Iudges do I do not find fault with it And such â—uâ—ges are they as Priests vnder the Law were of diseases The chiefe Prâ—â—st iudged of the Leprosie which he neither inflicted nor cured So the Minister doth pronounce and iudge all beleeuers to be absolued and the contrarie vpon the wicked and vnbeleeuers who if he do absolue you but in iest so as you beleeue you are absolued And why not for it is not need full either to number sins by our fingers or to vse a Priest or a Frier such a one as your selfe Iam. 1.16 1. Ioh. 1.9 We may confesse our faults one to another so as Friers may be idle hereafter And whosoeuer beleeueth that his sinnes are forgiuen him him saith it selfe absolues whether he be absolued in iest or in earnest Well make haste To reade prayers by the houre belongeth not to Priests but to lay meÌ„ What your Priests do or what they thinke they ought to do it concernes me not Let them reade let them pray let them say Masse let them drinke let them play and in a word let them be alwayes like themselues It behoueth a Minister of the Gospell not to recite certaine Collects by an houre-glasse and to make his walke in them certaine spaces of houres but to giue daily diligence vnto reading 1. Tim. 4.13 exhortation and doctrine which things your Priests haue euer thought to be farre different from their office But these same prayers by the houre albeit they do not ill agree to your sacrificing priests who vnlesse they should speÌ„d the time on this fashion would neuer goe out of Stewes and Tauernes yet are they vnworthie of a Christian man because of their infinite z DVR Js it superstition to sing Psalmes vnto God to pray for remission of sinnes and other temporall and spirituall graces and to performe other exercises of religion vvho knovveth not that Christians had their night Psalmes that the Hymnes of Ambrose vvere at set times In the Acts vve read that Peter and Iohn vvent into the Temple at the ninth houre of prayer WHIT. pag. 726. These things I reproued not as superstitious and impious but that all the time which should be bestovved in instructing the people should be spent in saying their daily appointed houres specially in that tongue vvhich not the people and often times not the Priest himselfe doth vnderstand No man is ignorant that Christians had their night houres but it vvas because they might not assemble themselues in the day time vvill you keepe this custome and not be accounted superstitious The Hymnes of Ambrose are full of piety and sarre from superstitious chaunting As for the Apostles they vvent not vp to sacrifice nor to keepe Canonicall houres but to instruct the people who came thither to the euening sacrifice in great multitudes superstition Let vs heare the rest Christians are free from the lawes of men That neuer came into Luthers mind to
also happily at thy commaund though not to be drawne with thy hand speaking to the Pope WHIT. pag. 747. Duraeus is ashamed of this sophisme buâ— yet he fathereth it vpon Bernard which also Iohannes a Capistrano of the Pope and Councels p 77. and others of them haue handled and Pope Boniniface girt himselfe with a sword in signe hereof but this place speaketh nothing at all for any such power Pope must beare both swords The seruant is not aboue his master therefore i DVR What Catholike euer taught or wrote thus howbeit the Fathers of the Sinuessan Councell said The chiefe seate is iudged of no man WHIT. pag. 749. Thus you will make the Pope no Catholike who saith Dist 40. si Pâ—pa The Pope may bee reproued of no mortall man though he leade with him innumerable people vnto hell And who knoweth not these two pillers of Popery the Church of Rome cannot erre whatsoeuer it teacheth and the Pope may not be accused whatsoeuer â—e doth The Bishops of the Sinuessan Synode spake to Marcellinus the Pope who had denied Christ and committed Idolatrie and might bee accused by the Popes owne lawes so that in citing that authoritie you contradict both your selfe and your lawes it is lawfull for no man to accuse or reproue the Pope Christ prayed that Peters faith should not faile him k DVR Christ made Peter his Vicar on earth and by his prayer obtained that his Vicars faith might not faile by force vvherof the Pope cannot erre as Augustine and Cyprian also perceiued WHIT pag. 750. It is not true that Christ made Peter his Vicar nor doth it follow Peters faith failed not therefore no Popes faith hath failed who are his successors for Popes haue done and may fall into heresies as you will confesse and may erre in faith saith Pope Boniface Dâ—st 40. Papa which he could not do it this argument of yours vvere true Further Christ prayed for all his Apostles and the whole Church shal we say Christs prayer was lesse effectuall for the rest then for Peter If it be not then none of their successors could erre no more then Peters which I suppose you will not affirme And Augustine and Cyprian neuer reasoned as you do you abuse their names therefore the Pope cannot erre The vulgar people commeth seldome and negligently to the Lords Supper l DVR If you beleeued the Prophet Malachie or the Masse you vvould confesse this argument to be good WHIT pag. 753. You can neuer proue your Masse by the Prophet Malachie who speaketh of the prayers of the godly as Tertullian Eusebius and Jerome expound him and if the Masse were a sacrifice indeed as you call it the peoples negligence is no sufficient cause to make it priuate and yet to profit the people yea though they be absent you may aswel abuse the Word it selfe so and say it is inough when it is in publike it the Priest handle it and heare it and beleeue it alone yet the people being absent and not dreaming of any such thing may be saued by it therefore the Priest may celebrate priuate Masse Christ admitted onlie his Apostles to Suppe therefore Priests alone must m DVR The people also receiue the vvhole Sacrament vnder one kind WHIT pag. 754. It is childish dotage to say so as though one part of a thing were the vvhole or as if Christ appointing both bread and wine ordained more then a whole Sacrament that Pope was wiser vvhich said of certaine heretikes that refrained from the Cup as you doâ— De concil dist 2. cap. Comperimus Let them either receiue the vvhole Sacrament or refuse all DVR Christs vvords Drinke yee all of this proue nâ—t that all Christians must doe so WHIT. pag. 755. They doe proue it as those vvords take eate doe proue that all must eate and you may as vvell keepe both the elements from the people as one contrarie to S. Paul 1. Cor. 11.23 DVR The Passeouer might be eaten vvithout vvine WHIT. pag. 756. It might because God had not commaunded vvine but Christ himselfe commaundeth it in his Supper 1. Cor. 11.45 DVR The common people are aâ—t bound to drinke of the Cap for S. Paul saith As oft as ye drinke it to signifie they were not commanded so to doe WHIT. So he saith of the bread also As of as yee eate 1. Cor. 11.26 so that by your argument neither is the bread commanded them receiue the Sacrament the people ought to bee contented only with one part The title which Pilate fastned vpon the Crosse was written in Hebrew Greeke Latine therfore n DVR No Catholike doth so reason we say that title had in it a mysterie and Augustine proueth by it that the vvord coessentâ—all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be vsed in the Creede WHIT. pag. 757. Papists often reason thus as all men knovve which read their writings though you bee ashamed of it Tell vs what mysterie you meane if it bee worth the labour as for Augustine hee speakes no word that makes here for your cause yet you blush not to quote him prayers must bee read in the Churches in no language but either Hebrew or Greeke or Latine Harding That which is holy must not be giuen to dogges o DVR VVe say not that all but that some of the people may not haue the Scriptures committed to them WHIT. pag. 758. Who doubteth but that vvisedome is to be vsed in teaching the people and that they vvhich shevv themselues dogges and hogges must be barred from the Scriptures but this is nothing to the present question vvhether this reason be good vvhich Papists sometimes vse and vvhich here you should haue spoken to and not thus vvander therfore the vulgar people must be forbidden to reade the Scriptures This is my bodie therefore the p DVR Christ said it vvay his bodie WHIT. pag. 759. Christ by an vsuall phrase of Scripture called the thing signifying by the name of the thing signified because of the sacramentall ioint receiuing of both to vvit of the bread vvith the mouth and of his bodie by faith Againe if that vvhich vvas in Christs hands vvere his reall body vvhen he said so then vvas transubstantiation before vvhich you deny and then he had tvvo bodies but if it vvere bread then is there a metonymie in his vvords as vvee truly say bread is turned into Christs bodie Fall downe before his footestoole q DVR Ambrose and Augustine reasoned so from this Scripture WHIT p. 761. That is false they teach onely that vve must vvorship Christ in the mysteries and Sacrament not the myâ—teries and Sacrament themselues therefore the Sacrament must be worshipped God is no respecter of persons Pighius r DVR That vvas Pighius his error but the iudgement of Catholike Vniuersities is that foreseeing of merits is no cause of Predestination WHIT. pag. 762. Thus you fall from your champion Pighius in vvords
but that he might vvith more liuely sense of his brethrens miserie humble himselfe to God as for John Baptists coÌ„tinuall diet it vvas locusts and vvild hony nothing like your fasting It is meere dorage and superstation to call abstinence only from some delicate meates fasting though other as delicate be eaten as you doe no Prophets nor auncient Christians in the Church euer fasted thus froÌ„ flesh may at his pleasure glut himselfe with all maner of dainties Or who can suppose that the Fridayes fast is holier then the Wednesdayes fast but he must too much sauour of Iudaisme If S. Paul reproued the Galathians Gal. 4.10 because they did obserue dayes and y DVR This is an auncient cauill of heretiks long since ansevered by Ierome and Augustine that vve obserue not the same dayes that Ievves and Gentiles did WHIT. pag. 824. The Church in thâ—ir time did not bind mens consciences to the obseruation of daies as you doe and as did the Galathians iudging it necessarie for Christians to fast at your set times which if it had done yet the authoritie of men must not preuaile more than Scripâ—ures moneths and times is it likely he would endure our Papists which erre more grossely and shamefully If he forewarned the Colossians that they would not be intangled with their superstition Colos 2.21 which thought that some certaine meates were not to be z DVR Saint Paul reprooueth there the practise of Ievvish ceremonies WHIT. pag. 8â—6 True and all other like them which are mans ordinances and doctrines as he saith plamely verse 22. of which sort yours are else shew vs Scripture for them touched not to be tasted not to be handled would he allow the papisticall choice of meates If he determined long since 1. Tim. 4.2.3 that it was diuelish and a DVR You sight against vs vvith the Manichees vveapoâ—s vvhom Augustine aâ—svvered against Faust lib. 30. cap. 5. That true Christians abstaine from certaine meates and fruites more or lesse as they please and are able to tame the bodie and humble the soule against sinne not as though thâ—se creatures vvere vncâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 817. Thus you make Saint Paul a Manichee but indeed he there condemneth them and all that forbid to cate meates vnder paine of damnation which you doe and that place of Augustine plainely sheweth how your fasts differ from the Christian fasts in his time first they were to tame and humble men yours doe not so secondly they thought no meates vncleane you say men are polluted by eating some forbidden thirdly they abstained from sith and fruites as from flesh in their fasts you doe not so fourthly they fasted as they thought good and could but you make generall lawes of fastings to binde men thereto hypocriticall to absteine from certaine meates if he were now liuing would he change his doctrine and command this abstinence to a Christian We truely for our parts do alwayes and very highly commend a true fast whether it be priuate or publike neither do we commend them only but also we vse them as this yeare last past may most plentifullie witnesse for vs during which publike fasts were most religiously obserued in very many places As for those fasts of Moses and Dauid Helias and Iohn Baptist and the Apostles wherein were they any whit like vnto yours for if fasting do consist in choyce of meates and in appointing set dayes as you resolutely iudge it doth informe me if you can that they either at any time b DVR The auncient obseruation of Lent of VVednesday and Fridates fast and of the Ember daies might haue informed you hereof WHIT. p. 828. 829. You play the Sophister here in graine for Moses Elias Dauid â—ohn Baptist and the Apostles nouerkept those fasts neither did they nor any of the auncient Fathers preferre fish before flesh in theirâ— fastings as you doe DVR Aeriuâ— vvas counted an heretike vvho taught the same doctrine of fasting vvhich you do Epiphan haerel 75. WHIT. pag. 829. 830. The auncient Church disliked Euslathius his eagernes against Aerius in this point as witnesseth Socrates l. 2. c. 43. Sozomen l. 3. c. 13. Aerius might be an Arrian and so an heretike but of fasting he taught the same with Augustine Epist. 86. that there were no certaine times of fasting appointed by the Apostles Tertullian contra Psychicoâ— witnesseth that in the auncient ChristiaÌ„ church meÌ„ vsed to fast voluÌ„tarily freely not by CanoÌ„ or precept Epiphanius defeÌ„ded Eustathius against the churches iudgmeÌ„t in this point touching Aerius preferred fish before flesh or vsed inioyned and yearely set fasts For Iohn Baptist vsed continually to fast in his manner and the others fasted as the times and present occasions required in which their fasts they absteined as well from fish as from flesh Therefore in one word to wipe away your imputation of Homonymie I denie that we vse any For in that that we require the spirituall fast we dislike not the externall 〈◊〉 Tim. 4.8 howsoeuer this outward fast be nothing profitable without the spirituall But this deceitfull argumentation if there were any such here is rather by inferring a weake consequeÌ„t then by Homonymie or equiuocation how beit what the truth is we haue sufficiently ciscussed You haste forward and ioyne vnto these a fourth manner of deceiptfull disputation Circulatio named Circulation which is when one after a few words to no purpose returneth againe to the same and beggeth the question I acknowledge it to be a grosse and vnsauorie kind of sophistry so to do but shew me an example of our so doing You propound one example namely about the true notes of the Church for heere you say we alwayes make circuits and rounds and vse that very same thing for an argument wherein the question lieth But how prooue you that forsooth because we say the notes of the Church be the word of God and the Sacraments And so we say truly for they who haue these haue a Church of Christ but they who altogether want these are vtterly without both the Church and Christ Let vs contend about these notes that it may be discerned whether you or we haue them Tell me in what Court shall we try this title before what Commissioner before what Iudge shall we commence our plea I suppose the word of God must be consulted with But you say you haue alreadie consulted with it and you now fauour our cause lesse then you did before But I say Campian we rest vpon the word of God and not on your iudgement Yea but say you prooue vnto me that this is the word of God nay it were more meete that you should proue it is not And I also require of you that you will do the same thing which you commaund me to do namely that you will proue your word and Sacraments to be the very same which Christ hath commended vnto his Church Wherefore this
is no more our fault then yours the controuersie is about the word of God You contend that you haue it I contrariwise defend that we haue it if you like not my iudgement why may not I dislike yours But you say we expound the word c DVR You doe so for you proue the sense of Scripture vvhich you alleage neither by authoritie of Fathers nor by decrees of Councels nor by the rule of faith that is the common vse and custome of Christians WHIT. pag. 831. The meaning of the Scriptures in matters necessarie to saluation is plainely taught in the Scriptures as the Fathers themselues confesse and may bee found out by religious conferring of easier and harder places and such like meanes and so we proue the true sense of them The Fathers expositions often erre and varie one from another as their writings witnesse and you vvill confesse the auncient Councels expound little of the Scriptures as for the vse and customs of the people it is no rule of faith at all nor must vvee expound the Scriptures thereby amisse I againe auouch that it is false which you say Whither are you now come at last go one foote further forward if you can Why say you I haue the testimonie of fifteene hundred yeeres This is nought else but a friuolous a foolish and an insolent bragge You haue not I say you haue not Campian You are euer heere deceiued and turne round againe as it were into a circle and are faultie in that same very thing for which you reprooue vs. Touching the Fathers I haue answered you alreadie In the questions of greatest waight they are wholly on our d DVR Jf it vvere so you vvould not extenuate their authoritie nor refuse to stand to their iudgement as you doe WHIT. pag. 833. We giue the Fathers their due but rely more vpon the Scriptures which are infallibly true you are driuen from the Scriptures and rake vp euen out of the Fathers ouersights whatsoeuer seemeth to fauour your errors neither doth it follow that the Fathers are not on our side in many and the greatest controuersies because wee say with Augustine that all controuersies of religion must not bee determined out of the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures side in those of smaller moment their iudgemeÌ„ts are diuers and they make for you in very few and those of least importance How much better would it stand with wisedome that as Augustine sometime wrote of Councels neither you should obiect Ierome against me nor I Augustine against you Aug. contra Maximian lib. 3. cap. 14 thereby to preiudice each side but that matter might be tried with matter cause with cause and reason with reason by the authority of the Scriptures Aug. Epist 111. ad Fortunatian For indeed as the same Augustine hath elsewhere taught vs we must not haue any mens disputations howsoeuer otherwise they be meÌ„ of sound iudgement and worthie praise in like estimation as the e DVR No Catholike euer esteemed any mans vvittings to be compared vvith the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 834. But Papists not onely compare them with but also preferre them before the Scriptures for they vvill not haue controuersies tried by the Scriptures but by the Fathers and they sooner allovv a sentence of one Father than many Scriptures so did not Angustine nor Thomas Aquinas Canonicall Scriptures Such an vnderstander saith he am I in reading other mens writings such would I haue other men to be of mine And because you haue mentioned Thomas Aquinas The. Aquinas 1. p. 1. q. 2. Art learne of him what manner argumeÌ„ts may be taken out of the Fathers writings Diuinity or holy learning saith he vseth authorities of Canonicall Scripture to proue or disproue a thing necessarily but it vseth the authorities of other f DVR VVe say not that the iudgement of one or tvvo of the Fathers but that the common consent of the Pasters and Doctors of the Church is the strongest argument to confute you WHIT. 833.835 Augustine and Thomas spake also of all men opposing onely Scriptures vnto them so that apparantly they taught that the consent of all Fathers and Doctors could bee but a probable reason and that the Scriptures onely yeeld necessarie arguments vvhich no consent of men though neuer so learned Doctors and Pastors can confute Further I say pag. 854. that you haue the common consent of all the Fathers in no one cause against vs yea that all the auncient Fathers doe together with vs vvith one voyce condemne your halfe Communion Transubstantiation reall presence sole Communion bread-vvorshipping externall reall sacrifice seruice in strange language your Popes absolute iurisdiction and many other such like Doctors of the Church to dispute of a thing probably These forsooth ô you truly learned Vniuersitie students are those so notorious sophisticall errors which Campian could finde worthie his censure in our mens writings I could wish you might haue this so famons a Sophister to canuas awhile at home in your Schooles then verily would it easily appeare how much truth excelleth falshood and how farre sound learning preuaileth against vaine bragging words for I know well such Sophisters as this is can neither any whit affright nor greatly perplex you EDMVND CAMPIAN The tenth Reason which is all manner of Witnesses THis shall be to you a direct path so that the simplest that bee neede not wander out of it For who is Esay 35. though he be but of the meaner sort of common people so senselesse so that he haue an eye vnto his soules health that cannot see if he looke but a little about him the path of the Church so plainely trodden that cannot keepe it if he dislike of by-wayes that lead him through brambles and ragged roches and places that cannot be passed These things shall be well knowne euen of those that be ignorant as Esay hath prophecied and therefore most manifest vnto you If you will * Campian bringeth nothing in this place but a continuall begging of the question let vs take a view of all things that are any where to be seene let vs trauerse ouer euery thing wheresoeuer it be All things do minister matter fit for our purpose Let vs ascend into heauen by imagination there may we finde such as through martyrdome Coelites are as ruddie as the red a August Serm. 37. de Sanct. rose and also such as for their innocencie while they liued do glister as beautifully as the white Lilly There may we see I say those * Of which not one was a Papist three and thirty Bishops of b Dam. in vit Poâ—â— Rom. Rome which for their faith were immediatlie murthered one after another There may we see such Pastors as throughout all nations vpon the earth shed their blood for the testimony of Christs name There may we see the stock of faithfull people that tread the steps of their Pastors There may wee see
professed themselues Christians if they were Christians they were ours But Helen say you was ours who is euery way famous for finding the crosse of Christ That which Ambrose reports of Helen is very suspitious and Golasius Bishop of Rome calleth these things that were bruted of the inuention of the crosse Dill. 15. Sanct. Romana new reuelations But graunt that Helen found the Crosse for it is not greatly materiall Did she adore it for that is to the purpose Heare what Ambrose saith She found the stile Ambros in Orat. suneb Theodos she worshipped the King not the wood certainly for this is a heathenish error and a vanity of the wicked Wherefore though she found the Crosse that is no reason to prooue her yours seeing she worshipped not the crosse as you do for not finding but adoring of the l DVR VVee giue not Latria diuine worship to the Crosse WHIT pag. 868. The distinction vvill not excuse you for you reach that the Crosse and the Image of Christ is to bee worshipped with Latria or diuine worship Thom. 3. part 25. q. act 3. 4. which is so horrible and pernicious that it exceedeth all the superstition of old Idolaters Crosse makes a Papist Monica is ours who at her death desired they should pray and offer sacrifice for her at Christes altar Monica desired not that the m DVR Shee desired to be sacrificed for and what other sacifice is there but the sacrifice of the Altar to take away the hand a ritiue against vs. WHIT. pag. 870. That I haue answered in Augustines 〈◊〉 words Confess lib. 9. cap. 13. hee only desired to bee remembred at the Altar It was a custome in the Church to make honorable mention of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles the Virgin Mary the Martyrs and Confessors whom they neuer thought to be tormented in Purgatorie but your Masse is offered for those whom you thinke as yet not to be freed from that fire and to be in heauenly ioyes And what a kind of sacrifice it was Augustine sheweth in the same place saying Thy hand mayden kuit her soule by the bond of faith to the Sacrament of that price of our redemption He calleth then the Eucharist a sacrifice which taketh away the hand-writing against vs because it is the Sacrament of that sacrifice sacrifice of the Masse should be offred for her for the forgiuenes and expiation of her sinnes neither did Augustine either pray or offer for his mother in this manner The desire of Monica was only this that at the celebration of the Eucharist there might alwaies be a remembrance of her insomuch as she assured herselfe she was one of the heauenly societie and communitie of saints Augustine indeed prayed for his mother I denie not but this his fact proceeded more of affection to his mother then for any necessitie And the custome of prayer for the dead which preuailed in many places was not deriued from the authoritie of the scriptures but only from an excessiue kind of loue and reuerence of them that liued towards their friends that were dead But that Augustine neuer beleeued his mother to be in Purgatory that his prayers might releeue her there it is manifest for thus he saith Forgeue her Lord forgiue her I beseech thee August confess lib. 9. cap. 13. enter not into iudgement with her ô Lord yea ô Lord I beleeue thou hast already graunted that which I desire but accept ô Lord the freewill offrings of my mouth But if we should graunt that both Augustine and his mother went a little awry you cannot heere inferre that either of them are yours for so much as we are not to giue censure of the Fathers in greatest causes by one particular iudgement but by their continuall and constant opinion You annex hereunto Paula and Paulus Hilarian and Authony I could recken sixe hundred Monks like vnto these whereof not one was a Papist none of them yours All these were Christians louing solitarines that they might more quietly intend the meditation of heauenly things Compare not your Monks with these which are of an other sort and sect of Monks These were holy painefull faithfull full of good works yours are impure idle idolatrous deuourers hogges oxen asles how are those like But how shall it appeare vnto vs that Satyrus the brother of Ambrose was yours Being in danger he leaped into the sea and swimming escaped by the strength of his faith A goodly reason he was a good smimmer ergo n DVR But which of you did any such thing armed thing armed with the Caluinist Supper WHIT. pag. 872. And which of you armed with the Host durst cast himselfe into the sea vnlesse he had learned first to swimme And at that time Satyrus was not only saued but also others who had not the Host yours other pretence you make none Why Nicholas and Martinus should be yours you shew no cause for wearing haire-cloth fasting and watching are no marks of your Bishops Benedict say you was the founder and father of the Monkish profession therefore without doubt he must be yours I could be content to leaue him as too superstitious yet can you not prooue that he was yours or fauoured your religion in all or the most things Heere you say you passe ouer thousands Francis I thinke you meane and Dominicke and those huge swarmes of white Friers and blacke Friers I freely bequeath them vnto you and willingly suffer you to enioy them and all such as were like them They were not of that worth that we should need greatly to striue about them You passe ouer the Doctors in silence which you formerly remembred wherein I commend your wisedome seeing to them you can make no claime without doing them too apparant wrong You demaund of all those before recited whether they were Catholicks or Lutheranes to which I will answere when you haue shewed how Lutheranisme dissenteth froÌ„ true Catholick religion Luther taught no new doctrine he restored and mainteined the auncient Catholicke faith What though he was vnknowne vnto those auncient Fathers as being himselfe of later yeares yet the doctrine he brought was Euangelicall and Apostolick which you had welnigh extinguished which he restored to his former beautie and perfection Answere me Campian this one thing of all those you haue named what one was a o DVR But all these did euer consent in faith and differed only in such things which might be disputed vvithout any hazard of faith WHIT. pag. 873. Be it granted they did agree in matter of faith vvhy then do they not follow all one rule But S. Paul reproued the Corinthians agreeing in faith because they attributed to their Ministers more then was meete vvhilest one had deuoted himselfe to S. Paul another to S. Peter another to Apollo What then shall be done to the Scotistes Thomâ—stes others are the names of Scotus Thomas Francis more holy and lawfull names in their disciples then the
2. cap. 35. whom they vsually called Atheist but an other Aetius the likenes of the names deceiued you To that you obiected concerning Vigilantius and Iouinian an answere is formerly giuen a DVR You speake vvitâ—ilie but you must of necessity do the one WHIT. pag. 884. If they haue defended any thing against the Scriptures they are heretikes but if not they cannot bee condemned by the iudgement of any Church for my part I neither meane to defend them nor can I greatly accuse thâ—m If they were hereticks conuince them of some error they held against the scriptures Hieromes passions can make no man an heretick Now you bring in the swarme of hereticks Macedonians PelagiaÌ„s Nestorians Eutychians the Mâ—â—otholites and Iconomachs These first we hate as hell it selfe those last haue committed nothing deseruing the name of hereticks To set vp and worship Images is hereticall but not to ouerthrow them What you iudge touching Luther and Caluinâ— is nothing materiall whiles they liued they nothing regarded you now they are dead they despise you what will you conclude at length from this hereticall companie Aâ—â— these you say forsooke the gouerment of your Church and were ouerthrowne by them Nay Campian these were your forefathers and you their progenie and successors for your monster of Poperie hath been hatched by the impure commixtion of all heresies But you now appeare out of hell Lands and are come to land and wheresoeuer you cast your eyes or thoughts All is your own as you say all subiect themselues and subscribe to your religion Me thinks I see that brainsick Merchant who standing by the sea and beholding the ships cried out all he saw was his owne otherwise such senselesse dreames could not proceed but from a wit and iudgement exceedingly weakned Sedes Apostolica For say you the Romane succession witnesseth in which Church as Austen speaketh the Primacie of the Apostolike chaire hath alwaies had the preeminence Many causes there were why speciall accompt in times past should be made of the church of Rome especially for that Rome was the seate of the Empire as approued in the Councell held at Constantinople Concil Constantinop 1. cap. 5. b DVR VVhy then may not he that is Bishop of this Church be ouer all other Bishops and so the Prince of Priests the chiefe Priest and supreame head of the rest WHIT. pag. 885. Because authoritie and dominion is not proper to them who are more excelleÌ„t then others which may bee shewed by infinite examples Who can be ignorant that the tribe of Iudah was the chiefe the first and the Prince of the other tribes will it therefore follow that the head of the principall family in this tribe had authoritie ouer all other tribes Aristotle was accounted the prince of Philosophers Homer of Poets Hippocrates of Physitians Apelles of Painters did they therefore exercise authoritie ouer all the rest of the same profession So though for a long time together the church of Rome for many respects was excellent among the rest yet it neuer had domination and rule ouer the rest of the Churches of Christ I graunt therefore thaâ—â—his Church was accompted the supreme chiefe greatest and the principall preferred before other Churches Trow you hence to conclude the Bishop of Rome is the chiefe and principall Bishop or head of the Church Concil Carthag 3. cap. 26. Dist 99 prima sedis Austen himselfe forbid it in the Councell of Carthage viz. that the Bishop of the chiefe Sea should not be called Prince of Priests or any like title Although then the holy Fathers for diuers respects gaue the preheminence to the church of Rome yet â—â—d they neuer acknowledge c DVR This prohibition was giuen by the Fathers because they knew that aâ— the soueraignty of the Apostolike Chaire did euer flourish in the Romane Church so they did not doubt but the manner of the chiefe Priest did appertainâ— onely to the Bishop of Rome WHIT. pag. 885. Nay the prohâ—bition of the Councell did as well concerne the Bishop of Rome whom all acknowledge to be the Bishop of the chiefe seate as the Bishops of other Seas Therefore for the time he obeyed the decree of the Councell and was content with his names and refused to be called the soueraigne chiefe Priest that infinite pâ—â—â—â—â—â—â—ll authority which he now challengeth neither â—â—d other Apostolike Churches whether they were founded by the Apostles themselues or by some of their schollers yeeld any testimonie of truth to the church of Rome Heere you stick in a quagmire and â—â—e faine by intreatie to beg that which by strong reason you should prooue and cannot But you vrge further and recompt the Pastors of seuerall countries to whaâ— end I pray you The remainderâ— say you of the labours of all those that haue published the Gospell in all nations farrs and wide all present vnto vs this same religion which Catholâ—kes at this day professe What could be affirmed more weakely for the Greeians are opposite vnto you which vnto this time haue their succession of Bishops not interrupted And further the spyeâ— which you send in your new found lands haue found in the furthest coasts thereof many monuments of that faith which we mainteine Osâ—rius neither may you preferre vs before them at least afore all you ought to preferre the truth Aristot. as the Philosopher saith But if you thinke your Popes and other glorious titles more auncient then the Gospell what can you alleage why Christ should not denie you to belong to him seeing you value any thing more then him Heere you tell vs of Princes Princes Kings Câ—sars Emperours and make a goodly shew of names as your manner is At length you meÌ„tion our noble Queenâ— Elizabeth and will needs teach her her dutie But she Campian needs no such Masters â—say 48. or instructiors She knoweth her selfe to be the nursing mother of the Church and that by diuine dispensation and accordingly doth she with all watchfulnes and care procure the good thereof and labours by all possible diligence to preuent all dangers intended by you and your adherents You say of Caluine and these Princes 〈◊〉 you haue spoken thâ—◠〈◊〉 heauen can noâ— containe theÌ„ But it passeâ—h your skill to pronounce certainely hereof nay your Pope himselfe cannot with all his might pull Caluiâ—â— out of heauen not any of them whom Christ hath made witnesses of his truth As for you and your fellowes we wish you not the gallowes but saluation I desire to hope the best of you and I doubt not but you might attaine to the knowledge of the truth in controuersie betwixt vs if for the time you could lay aside all preiudicate opinions and consult with the word of God and the holy Fathers of the Church As for the societie of Iesus whereunto you are admitted it braggeth that it is wholie at the Popes dispensation and loues Gregory the 13.
too well to loue Queene Elizabeth any thing at all who is so farre differing from him Nations conuerted to Christ You proceed and produce the vtmost coasts and countries of the world to testifie for you you should distinguish auncient and later times For graunt that the whole world had conspired with the Pope against Christ which it hath not that is no aduantage to you nor preiudice to vs d DVR You had spoken better if you had said that he forsakes the Gospell who affirmeth that the whole world conspireâ— against Christ. O miserable Caluinists who cannot defend their saith otherwise than by bereauing Christ of his kingdome and the whole christian world of faith WHIT. pag. 886. This is very true you say but Duraeus did we euer speak after this manner Will you keepe your custome of rayling and slaundering euen to the last act Nay rather O miserable Duraeus who blinded with malice and ignorance doth not feele your owne miserie Not the whole world but your Synagogue which is but a small part of the whole world hath conspired against Christ And is it to be feared least Christ should loose his kingdome and the world faith if your shaueling with his whole rabble fall froÌ„ the Gospell Though you be perfidious and wicked yet God will remaine alwaies faithfull and true whosoeuer forsakes the Gospell he is necessarily diuided from the Church To put to silence the oracles of the heathen Idols and carry the name of Christ vnto the Gentiles was no doubt a great worke and a diuine worke but that is none of your worke for you haue filled the world with Idols and as much as in you lay ouerturned the kingdome of Christ The Idols of the heâ—â—â—en haue been oâ—eâ—â—â—owne and the kingdome of God enlarged by the Apostles and Apostolike men â—â—â—e â—â—e oâ—e Papist or one Iesâ—ite amongst these For the Iesuites which assay to make new kingdomes amongst the Indians serue not Christ but the Pope not do they enlarge the kingdome of Christ but they prepare for the Pope a kingdome farre from the Lutheranes where he may raigne after he shall be banished from these countries c DVR You set vpon our societie and say vve haue diuided Christ Because certeine men haue chosen vnto them this name aboue all others to be accounted of the societie of Iesus because they haue consecrated theÌ„selues wholy to aduance this name must they therefore of necessitie diuide Christ haue not you Christ Colledge in Oxford WHIT. pag. 8â—6 I will not striue much with you about your societie of which I â—â—â—e very small account If you haue for some speciall consideration dedicated your selues vnto Christ what is that consideration why doe you not tell vs what Iesus requireth of you which all other Christians are not bound to doe If the order of your profession require that you propagate honour and magnifie the name Iesus if for this all Christians ought not to labour at least Bishops and specially your Pope and if they be Iesâ—ites who doe this why â—re not all your Diuines Bishops Cardinals and Popes Iesuites It may bee this care is â—arre from them Whereas then nameâ— are for distinguishing of things they be needlesse and vaine when there iâ— no difference in the thing Either shew vs what is the proper peculier duties of Iesuits or confesse that without any cause you haue appâ—opriated such a â—â—me vnto theÌ„ In Cambridge aswell â—s in Oxford we haue both Christ and Iesus Colledge but they that liâ—e in those Colledges are called onely Christians Thinke you that because there are many Colledgeâ— different in names there are many differeÌ„t Orders professions of men In places distinctions of names are necessarie and without danger vnlesse some schisme may happeÌ„ betwixt yâ— wâ—ls Haue you no other thing to say for your sect societie You aske is Christ diuided I answere you Iesuites haue diuided him els why haue you separated Iesus from Christ and leauing the auncient ordinary names of Christians which you scorne as too common you desire rather to be called Iesuites a new name of your owne framing then Christians As though there were some societie of Iesus appropriated to one kind of men separated from other Christians If there be then is Christ deuided if not then you Iesuites are too impudent to deuise a new societie You say either we or he preach a wrong Christ This of necessitie must be so But Luther preached the true Christ storme the Pope neuer so much looke then what Iesus what Christ you haue amongst you the true Christ it is not I beseech you Campian for Christes sake consider well whom you haue forsaken to whome you haue betaken you into what danger you haue cast your selfe But you will tell vs who is the true Christ I listen to heare it let him bâ— true Christ and on their side by whose bringing in Dagons neck was broken With a good will Christ by vs preached hath within these few yeares throwne downe an infinite sort of your Dagons for so soone as Christ accompanied with his Gospell got footing in any place your Dagons out of hand fell downe and had not only their armes and legs broken but necks also Patrick in Ireland and Palladius in Scotland what they were I meane not to search We Englishmen I graunt receiued much good by Austen the Monke and much euill also and superstition which he brought in with him It is plaine that we had receiued the Christian faith in Brittany many ages before his comming hither How it was by him increased or hindred I will not say But he liued sixe hundred yeares after Christ which as I iudge was not the purest time of the Church but as others affirme the age was most corrupt Now to conclude because to prosecute all were infinite you gather a heape of witnesses together the Vniuersities written lawes the common fashions of all people choyce of Emperours kingly rites orders of Knighthood habites church windowes coines gates houses all things great and small vnto all which I answere in a word if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto vs an other Gospell then that which Christ hath taught the Apostles published our Churches now professe we would reiect and detest it much lesse do we stand vpon these toyes of yours and maâ—â—ers of â—oâ—omâ—nt The florishing Vniuersitieâ— auncient lawâ— and iâ— all kinds monuments of great antiquitie all these afford vnto vs an open testimonie of the truth we professe Thus haue we heard your ten-fold Apollogy wherein I perceiue you haue bestowed no small diligence how you haue therein preuailed I leaue the iudgement to others If you haue satisfied none more therein then our Vniuersitie men I can assure you you haue lost your labour and are disappointed of your hope For my owne part though in this case I professe my selfe your aduersary yet your person Campian I loue as farre as a Christian may loue a Iesuite And I