by those and other your Articles and Iniunctions in our former answer alleadged to which yet we haue receyued no aunswer being directly Antichristian doe vtterlie destroy true Christianitie so as the people and Churches so professing and practising can not * Nota. in that estate by the word of God be iudged true Christians or the true constituted Churches of Christ Your similitudes are not against vs but against your selues in asmuch as coÌ„paring the doctrines of the Gospel which you professe with the whitenes of an Aethiopians teeth and your Antichristian Ministerie worship Courtes and coÌ„fusion of people with the blacknes of an Aethiopians body this and such like similitudes doe fitly declare your estate And the approving of your Churches black constitution by some white doctrines of the Gospel professed among you is as if you should reason thus An Aethiopian is white of his teeth there fore he is a white man A blacke Rauen is white of her bill therefore a blacke Rauen is a white biâ—d Now when you had received this aunswer and saw these comparisoÌ„s turned vpon your self then you devised another being not able to maintaine the former And this last you have published in your printed book as if it had ben in your written coppie which I aunswered where it was not at all The abuse is great not to me only but to the Reader inasmuch as these things were by you so published as if your last comparison neither were nor could be aunswered Let the Reader note this maner of dealing for such as it is The similitude now added to the rest is this My brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a woodden legge therefore my brother is no true man I aunswer that after your woonted maner you take for graunted that which you should prove viz that your Church in that constitution is as a man with an eye of glasse or woodden legge This I denie to be your case Prove it so to be if you can The Scripture describeth the false Church in their constitution specially touching the Ministerie not vnder the similitude of men vvith woodden legges or the like but vnder the similitude of ‡ Rev. 9.7.8.9.10 13.11 19.20 Locusts whose forme is like vnto horses prepared to battell with crovvnes on their head like gold vvith faces of men heare of vvomen teeth of Lyons habergions of yron vvings like charets tayles of scorpions and stings in them to hurt vvithall Now I would know of you Mr. Iacob whether these be men with woodden legges or monsters with mens faces In like manner whether the Churches which in their constitution chiefly of Ministerie do resemble these be like to men with some defects or to beasts with some resemblance of men Either therefore must you pâ—ove the constitution of your Church to be a true one as the man you speake on is which all may see you cannot do or this comparison fitteth not your turne We must mind and beleev what the Scripture teacheth not what you would beare vs in hand without any proof But it may be you would be vnderstood of the man of sinne spoken of 2 Thes 2. or of the whorish woman mentioned in the Revelation 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.1 If that be your meaning it is against your self and so applie it If you meane otherwise it fitteth not your case as I shewed before And thus the comparison applied to your estate is woodden that is absurd and glassie that is brittle such as will not bide a blow H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur Third Exception is That the 16. Article of consecrating Bishops and Priestes and the 6. and 35. Article of Apocripha and Homilies doe not agree with the Gospell What then Ergo our Churches profession and practise differ Most false For our Churches doe professe that these things doe agree vvith the Gospell vvell enough Also their practise is thereafter Or doe you conclude Ergo our Churches holde not Christ to saluation In deede so I tooke your purpose at the first but novve in plaine categoricall termes you auouch it That these things being directly Antichristian doe vtterly destroy true Christianity So then Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. were verie Antichrists and no true Christians As before also I trowe you affirmed Surely this grosse and wicked absurditie I could not open better then by this similitude This man hath a wodden legge an eye of glasse his nose deformed adde also if you will both his armes not naturall but framed to him of wood or what you will Ergo this is no true man Yes Sir for all this he is a true man For as much as all this concernes not the very life and being of a man though these be most vnnaturall additions and verie many The like doe I affirme of these externall corruptions in the Church Which my sentences you goe not about to refute but onely with words with bare yea and nay and no more Fr. Iohnson his aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 3. Exception YEt suffer me that I may speak and when I have spoken mocke on You say your Churches professe that the consecrating of Bishops and Priests the 6. 35. Articles of Apocrypha books and Homilies do agree with the Gospel well ynough and that your practise is thereafter Marke now what followeth herevpon The Apocrypha books to speak first of them have * Iudith 9.2.3.4 compared with Gen. 49.5.6.7 Ester Apocrypha 12.5 with Ester Canonicall 6.3 Est. Apocr 15.9.10 with Ester Canon 5.2 Ecclesiasticus 46.20 with Esa 57.2 Eccles 12.7 contradiction to the Scriptures ‡ Tob. 6.6.7.8 8.2.3 with 3.7.8 magik “ 1 Tob. 12.12.15 compared with 1 Tim. 2.5 blasphemy †Esdras 14.21.22.23 c. 2 Mach. 2 4-8 Tobit 5.11.12.13 with 12.15 1 Machab. 6.4.8.9.16 with 2 Machab. 1 13-16 and 9.1.5.7.9.28.29 fables ♣ 2 Machab. 12.44.45 14.41.42 Ecclesiastic 46.20 48.10 errors c. Therfore your Church by your owne confession professeth all these to agree with the Gospell well ynough practiseth thereafter A verie Christian professioÌ„ and practise in deed well beseeming the daughters of Babylon that mother of all abomination The like may be said of your blasphemies in the book according to which you consecrate Prelates and ordeine Priests receiving other Lordbishops Priests in office of Ministery besides Iesus Christ to whoÌ„ this * 1 Cor. 12.5 Eph. 4.5.11.12 Heb. 7.23.24 1 Pet. 5.4 honour doth onely beloÌ„g And not that only but ordeining your Priests with further blasphemy when the Prelats say to every of you kneeling at their feet to be ordained Receive the holy ghosts whose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven whose sins thou dost retaine they are retained These things being so to omit manie other that might be alleadged out of those and the rest of your books how can we but think as we do of the estate of your Church Would you
c. Esa 1.11.12.13.14.15 Zeph 1.12 1 Cor. 11.19 many things which are verifyed sometymes of the members of a true Church may not also fitly be applyed and alleadged against a false Church and yet not iustify their estate and constitution neither make for them but against them altogeather Otherwise you condemne at once all the Martyrs heretofore who vsually alleadged this †Mat. 15.9 very Scripture against the false worship of the Romish Church as as your self cannot be ignorant Yet in your learning it seemeth the Papists might well have aunswered the Martyrs againe that this Scripture was verifyed of them that were of the true visible Church and therefore made for them and against the Martyrs most notably 2 Secondly when you say This Scripture is verifyed of such as were of the true visible Church with whom Christ and his Apostles communicated tell vp whether you meane that Christ and his Apostles communicated with them in their vaine traditioÌ„s or no. If you think they did that very Chapter sheweth the contrary besides that the whole Scriptures testify that Christ was altogeather free from sinne Mat. 15.2 which he could not have bene if he had ioyned with them in those their inventions If they did not as it is without all question then what doth this helpe you who do all of you ioyne and coÌ„mmunicate with the faâ—se worship of your Assemblyes 3 Thirdly I answer that your note is not worth the noting being nothing at all to the purpose for the question in hand For first who knoweth not that â—e the Iewish Church the doctrine publiquely professed and practised by their Law did not appoint or ratifie any of those vaine traditions but vtterlie forbid them Wheras contrarilie the verie doctrine publiquelie professed and practised by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the false worshipping of God by the inventions of men Secondlie those vaine traditions aforesaid were the personall sinnes of some particuler men in the Iewish Church not publiquelie established by law nor generallie received and practised in that Church ‡ Luk. 1.5.6 8.9.10 2.21.22.23.24.25.27.36.37.38.39.41.46 Mat. 5.17 8.4 15.2 Ioh. 10.34 Zachary and Elizabeth Symeon Anna Mary Ioseph Christ himself and his Apostles with manie others kept the ordinance of God given by the hande of Moses and observed of that Church Neither did they ioyne or pollute themselves with that vaine worship aforesaid whereas in the Church of England the false worship thereof devised by men even by that man of sinne is not the personall sinne of some particular men in it but is publiquelie established by law and generallie received and practised in your assemblies of all the members thereof So then this scripture maketh nothing for you but against you most notably Now whereas in the margent you wish the Reader to marke an open contrariety comparing this and the Sixt Reason togeather we do also referre it to the Reader to iudge whether there be not even an harmonie with this and a direct confirmation of it H. IACOB his 2 Reply to the 2 Reason TO this your defence of your Second Reason I say you have aunswer in your last Exception page 57. You aske what proposition I do deny I answer I distinguish your assuÌ„ptioÌ„ as being a fallacie called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 concluding a thing simply from that which is after a sort like vnto that Reason which I framed against you in pag. 57. A man hath a woodden legg an eye of glasse c. Therefore he is no true man Cranmer Ridley c. held asmuch as wee aftet mens precepts Ergo they worshipped in vaine Geneva holdeth her wafer cakes in the Supper Ergo Geneva worshippeth God in vaine Euen so your Assumption runneth Our doctrine say you Pag. 82. appoincteth Gods worship by mens precepts This is false vnlesse you meane it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after a sort not simply For our doctrine appoincteth not all Gods worship by mens precepts nor the chiefest part of it as the preaching of the Gospell of life Sacramentes and Prayers c. So that it concludeth nothing in that sence Therefore here you play the false Sophister not the Chistian and conscionable Disputer Thus you have ansvver enough to this in the ansvver to your last Exception though you vvould not see it * Pag. 82. Further I noted Secondly That this your Scripture of Mat. 15. Yeeldeth the offenders to be of a visible Church vvith vvhom Christ did coÌ„municate though they held also traditions of men Therefore it affirmeth nothing against vs. Is not this true Why then do you not admit it We never denyed but this Scripture condemned our corruptions But this onely vvee affirme it disanulleth not our Churches Euen as Christ here condemneth the Ievves corrupt traditions but hee meant not there by 〈…〉 their Church Therefore all this is not against our purpose but notably for vs is before observed 1. Concerning your First ansvver in Pag. 83. I knovv this Scripture may be applyed against false vvorshippers vvhich are no true Church But it proueth not I say all them to vvhom it may bee applyed to bee no true Church Therefore you abuse it against vs Except you had first proved vs no true Church nor Christians vvhich yet is in question 2. Where in your Second answere * pag. 83. you say That this helpeth vs not except we say that Christ communicateed with the Pharisies in these traditions like as wee doe in the vaine traditions now For shame leave this folly I say againe I seke not to iustify our partaking in our traditions but I renounce it in sobrietie asmuch as you yea better then you do Yet I say this place shall admit those vvho doe in simplicitie partake of them to be true Christians neverthelesse like as it admitteth the Ievves then 3. In your Third aunsvver “ pag. 83. 84 You deny that those Iewish traditions of washing c. were with them received generally or by Law in their Church Whereto I aunsvver That they vvere generally received as Marke in his 7. Chapter and 3. verse doeth testify and that they vvere rebuked vvho vsed rhem not vvhich is sufficient to make it their Churches doctrine practize though no expresse law coÌ„manded it But I suppose verse 5. where they say why walkest thou not after the traditions of the Elders he meaneth the ordinances of their Forefathers which were to them as lawes besides the lawe of Moses What els is their Thalmud which is till this day euen like to the Canon lawe of Poperie and the Alcoran of Turky Some also vnderstand this of the ordinances of the Elders that is their present Gouernours and then doubtlesse it was lavv And though Zachary Elizabeth Symeon Anna Mary Ioseph Christ and his Apostles did not actually ioyne in these corruptions yet they vvere generall no doubt and by lavv never the lesse and a number of the Ievves simply vsed them and yet fell not from God
so alledged against the Papists Vnto which you can say nothing Besides also the Iewes being a true Church and yet their worship vnto many of them by their traditions proving to be in vaine it followeth more strongly against the false Church and her abominations which are far mo and of another nature then those in Iewry Thus should you apply it to your selves Lastlie minde that now you are driven to saie you never denied but this Scripture condemneth your corruptions So by your owne confessiō your worship of God is in vayne No part of it is free from your corruptions Let such then ioine with you therein as have pleasure in vaine worship 2 Thes 2.12 vvith Exod. 20.5 Christ never communicated in any such but rebuked it and all them that worshipped God in such maner even this Scripture being witnes Therefore it maketh notablie against you and for vs as is before observed 1. In your Replie to the first point of my Aunsvver next following you can not saie a word against it Yet will you not yeeld Still you would have me graunt that which I denie and you should prove viz That in your estate you are a true Church c. The contrarie whereof I have proved ‡ Pag. 3. 12. 16. 22. 33. 59. 60. 61. 63. c. before Therefore is it not yet in question 2. To the second you yeeld with shame enough though your follie be so great as you see it not For first you neither do nor can aunswer but against your selves to that which I asked concerning Christ and his Apostles vvhether they communicated in those traditions of the Ieevves or not If by your silence you consent that they did not as in deed the truth is then by their exāple are we also bound not to partake in yours If you saie they did then you both blaspheme Christ making him a sinner and give the holy Ghost the lie who in †Mat. 15.2.13.14 this verie Chapter testifies the contrarie Thus whatsoever you shall aunswer it maketh against you excedinglie And because you answer not it importeth that you yeeld So also doth that most plainlie which here you speak for your self You saie you seek not to iustify your partaking in your traditions c. Yes Mr Iacob you seek it but you are ashamed to professe it Els why condemne you vs for not partaking therein I know you will say as is in the Preface of your book that your minde is we should partake with you in your lavvfull things not in your traditions But for shame leave this follie None can ioyne with any of your Churches or Ministerie but they must needs partake with your Antichristian traditions Shew the contrarie in any Minister or Church of the Land and we yeeld Otherwise what do you but yeeld The renouncing you speak of is in word not in work You renounce evill with your lippes but approve it in your deeds And thus is verified vpon you that which Christ out of the Prophet spake in the †Mat. 15.8 place aforesaid This people dravveth neare vnto me vvith their mouth and honoreth me vvith the lippes but their heart is far from me And where you speak of such as do in simplicity partake of your traditions to be true Christians nevertheles Albeit in your constitution they can not by the word of God so be counted Pag. 3. 7. 16. 33. 63. c. as hath ben proved yet I pray tell vs what then you think of those that partake with your traditions not of simplicity but as your self do that is knowing them to be against the Second Commaundement of Antichrist vaine vvorshipp never but nought c. 3. In the third point of my aunsvver I noted two differences between your case and the Iewes the first towching the Law it self the second towching the observation of it For the Lavv I shewed that the ordinance of God given by Moses even the written word being the Law of that Church it did not appoint but forbid those traditions Yours contrarilie For the observation I shewed that the traditions were not generallie observed of all the members of that Church as yours be Both these I proved by the Scripture Luk. 1 5-10 2.21 c. Mat. 5.17 8.4 15.2 Ioh. 10.34 Where marke in Iohn those words of Christ to the Iewes In your Law speaking of the written word Now vnto this so plaine evidence you aunswer nothing at all to the purpose For the former you seem at first to yeeld that these traditions were not commaunded by the Law of that Church But yet being so generally received and they rebuked who vsed them not you count it to be as good Which I denie Then you would prove these to be the Law of that Church because they are called †Mar. 7.5 the Traditions of the Elders But even by this appeareth that they were not the Law of that Church but a Tradition received from hand to hand from their forefathers Which therefore bound not anie neither were observed by all as it is with you Neither was their case then as the Iewes is now with their Thalmud or as the Turks with their Alcoran neither as the Papists or yours with the Canon Law If it had ben such then could they not have ben a true Church And to vnderstand this to be the ordinance of their present Governours as to serve your turne you could be content is altogeather without ground It is both against the common vse of the word Tradition here vrged and against the true meaning of the word Elders in this place Mat. 5 21.27.33 which plainelie appeareth by another word vsed in Mat. 5. in such sence as this is here and in stead thereof signifying Them of old tyme or the like For the latter that is the observation you would prove out of * Mar. 7.3 Mark that they were generally received If you meane they were received of very many but not of all you speak nothing against that which I said If you meane they were received of all among them as the words seem to sound then you misvnderstand and misalledge that Scripture I will shew it by a like speach vsed also by Mark in another place where he saith all the countrey of Iudea and they of Ierusalem came out to Iohn †Mar. 1.5 and vvere all baptised of him c. Now by the word All in this place he meaneth onely a great many and not everie one as the word might seem to import For that all were not baptised of him is evident both by “ Mat. 21.32 Luk. 7.30 other Scriptures and by this reason that if all Iudea and Ierusalem had ben baptized of him then had they all confessed their sinnes and become disciples Which all men know was far otherwise Likewise in this place although he saie All the Ievves because they were many yet even in the ‡ Mar. 7.2 next verse going before he saieth the
to proceed with them in the faith and order of Christ and to ‡ Gal. 5.12 1 Cor. 5.7.11.13 cut off and cast out such troublesome leauen from among them Now this being duelie weighed it is nothing for but altogeather against the having of communion with the Assēblies of this Land which are not set in the way and order of Iesus Christ as were those Churches of Galatia but in the Apostasie and confusion of Antichrist as hath ben at large declared before in the defence of the former Reasons where also that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c. is answered H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 3. Reason TO this your Defence of your Third Reason I answer First it is too impudent a cavillation “ That you charge me to giue the H. Ghost the lye in denying your Assumption I meant not your Assumption but that which I had made briefer conteining the effect of yours This was the Assumption denyed by me But a Galatian is a false Christian. As he that hath but halfe an eye may see Secondly to cease needles strife I deny therefore your Proposition Though a Galatian ‡ that is so holding it as the worst did or els this is a sophisticall aequiuocatiō holding Circumcision cannot be a true Christian yet an English Christian holding the Hierarchye c. may The Reason of this denyall I gave you then but that you would not see it Namelie because such Galatians held Iustification by the workes and ceremonies of the Law Gal. 5.3.4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Act. 15.1 Like the Papists who by their ceremoniall and morall workes doe hold the same and so doe erre Fundamentally But our Churches and state hold not the Hierarchye so but onely as an indifferent thing in it self This blasphemous opinion of Circumcision maketh it infinitelie worse though once it was ordeined of God then our indifferent opinion of the Hierarchye though in deed it were never but nought Thirdlie and lastlie you have no where cleared Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and the rest of those holy Martyrs from being abolished frō Christ if the Hyerarchie be simply worse then Circumcision so held as those Galatians did hold Gal. 5.2.3.4.5 Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 3. Reason IS it of simplicity or of impudency or of both Mr Iacob that thus you do write Your simplicity is more then Dunsicall to say you denyed not my Assumption but one of your owne For with whom I pray you do you dispute With your self or with me Your impudency is to shamefull not onely to give the holy Ghost the lye but when it is shewed you yet not to acknowledge it Therefore to hide it if possibly you could you say when you denyed the Assumption you meant not myne but one of your owne made briefer c. Yet even thus appeareth that you can not say otherwise but to deny my Assumption which I proved by Scripture were to give the holy Ghost the lye Now that you did it before your owne words here againe will testify against you For you say Your Assumption made briefer conteyneth the effect of myne Then in denying your owne it must needs be that you denyed myne in deed and effect and so now by your owne confession it is true as I said that you gave the lye to the holy Ghost who by Paul affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.4 Simple Sir Priest Had you no more wit nor better defence then to aunswer thus as he that hath but halfe an eye may see you do nothing els but impudently cavill Is this the Christian and conscionable disputing you speak of Or is it the deep and Cler klike skill in argumentation which every where you will beare vs in hand is lockt vp in the chest of your brest Content your self Mr Iacob to keep hereafter within your line and strive no longer against the truth but for it Secondly you say to cease needles strife you deny the Proposition But if your former denyall of the Assumption was good why do you not stand to it If it were evill why do you not confesse it If your mynd be in deed to cease needles strife then shew it in deed not in word onely The Proposition which now vpon better advisement you chuse to deny I have proved before Against it you except Pag. 90. that although a Galatian holding Circumcision cannot be a true Christian yet an English Christian holding the Hierarchy c. may But you should say thus Mr Iacob if you aunswer me He that submitteth to a false Ministery worship and gouernemēt of the Church devised by Antichrist the man of sinne c. is a true Christian in that estate For these were the words I vsed in my Argument and proof thereof But you delight to aunswer your owne words and Arguments not myne Yet why prove you not then from the Scripture that which you say towching Antichrists Hierarchy c. Will you have vs beleev it on your bare word Mynd also that now you confesse the whole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Law in England is not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit to Circumcision which once was Gods owne ordinance Had I not cause then think you to deny the Assumption of your mayne Argument Yea and to put you in mynd of the defects and lamenes both of your Proposition and Assumption And where you say the Galatians could not be true Christians because they held Iustification by the works and ceremonies of the Law like the Papists who by their ceremoniall and morall works do hold the same and so do erre Fundamentally Whereas your Churches and State you say hold not the Hierarchy so but onely as an indifferent thing in it self 1. First what say you to the †Damianus a Goes de fide Religione et moribus Aethiopion Pag. 63. c. Ethiopian Churches which togeather with the Gospell hold and vse at this day the ceremonies of the Law Circumcision c. onely as things indifferent and therefore condemne not the Churches which vse them not at all Are they in this constitution by the word of God now to be judged true Christians and true Churches Or may not any separate from people so walking to keep the faith of Iesus without such commixtion By your marginall note it seemeth you are so mynded Let vs have your reasons and proof in your next Reply 2. Or how will you prove for your Churches that it is as you say viz that you hold as a thing indifferent your Hierarchy c. Do you not see that such as hold and walke otherwise are imprisonned banished cōdemned killed among you Is this to hold things as indifferent What then I pray you may be your holding of the other poynts of Religion among you which you count not indifferent 3. And what say you to your forbidding of Meats and Mariage at certayne tymes which the Apostle calleth Doctrines of
2.2 Rev. 18 4. 3. That even of the Church of Rome it may in some respect be said The doctrines and profession of that Church are sufficient to salvation viz. if the truths they hold be considered alone and apart from theyr errors and corruptions and these other also not imputed vnto them For confirmation whereof see in the Treatise following Pag. 47. But now then I aske Are they of England therefore in a grievous schisme in so peremptory condemning and separating from such Christians and Churches Let him aunswer in his next 4. That this D. B. himself hath heretofore held and witnessed that the Church of England standeth in Antichristian estate vvorshippeth God in vayne putteth from her the truth and ordinance of Christ is in her constitution a daughter of Babylon the Mother of vvhoredomes c. and therefore if now he deny it as he hath begun is both runne headlong into an intolerable sinne and extremity without all warrant of Gods word and besides giveth just occasion to be called a fearfull Apostate in so wholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth which before he embraced and acknowledged Advisedly I say as this Preface and his daily practise declareth For advantage sake because he hath done it in loue of himself seeking his owne things not that which is Christs that he might have prayse of men and account in the world that he might be released from imprisonment where somtymes he hath ben a witnes of Christ in bands that he might enjoy the favour of his Frends that he might without feare and disturbance of the Prelates or theyr Officers †Rev. 13 1â— buy and sell that is keep his shop follow his trade make profit and advantage thereby for himself c. This by his course of dealing appeareth to be his case But both him and all others that eyther refuse or forsake the truth we leave vnto God who tryeth the hearts and searcheth the reynes and will give every man according to his works 5. That the word of God being on our side for our profession and practise as in the Discourse following is shewed we neyther do nor need regard this mans or any other theyr tales clamours abuses threats reproches sclaunders c. The mischief of theyr tongues God will bring vpon theyr owne heads if they repent not To him we commit it D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 3. 2. Secondly I would desier the Reader not to be caried away with the multitude of corruptions from the Question or matter in hand viz. Whether the good doctrines of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation in them that in simplicitie of heart beleeve imbrace them notwithstnding the multitude of errors and corruptions which Maister Iohnson repeateth to the contrary But to have an especiall regard vnto the same Which is the maine poinct that hath doeth altogeather deceive them viz. To have an eye to the corruptions in the Ministery worship governement of the Churches of England But never to looke vnto the nature force of them whether simply of their owne nature they overthrow faith Christianity or whether they be held of obstinacy a convicted conscience or not Therefore I pray you marke examine the errors which they reckon vp I desire the same also of them for whose good especially I published this Treatise And after due consideratioÌ„ see if those errors are simply of that nature which before we have noted If they be not as Maister Iohnson nor all the men in the world shall ever be able to prove they are Then do they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * * NotvvithstaÌ„ding they are to many already more as they are Thus they may see how they have all this while ben deceived are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That every error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from salvation in Christ Then should they condemne themselves vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfectioÌ„ which surely though I thinke they hold not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condemning others so peremptorily that jump not even with them in every poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not alike Me thinkes then that they should affoard that favour to others which they would have others affoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errors which they must acknowledge * * Ps 19.12 1 Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite many in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which even common sence humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their myndes I will a little turne my speach vnto them And I would pray them to call to mynde the many errors corruptions which they beare with amonge themselves lay them the errors with vs togeather they shall see their equality Some of you hold it vtterly simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to prove a will take an administratioÌ„ or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes Festivall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these things alâ—ogeather lawfull have doe put them in practise with many other such like things which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would froÌ„ hence note is this Can you among your selves beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inventions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the ‡ ‡ I vvould you knevv the marks of the Beast a litle better marks of the Beast ††Rev. 14. which whosoever receiveth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God shal be tormented in Hell fier for ever And will not your stomackes serve you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in far lesser matters what equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most part so wholy given bend your wits myndes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to them As you sildome or never look into your owne estate or apply the scriptures to your selves But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may fee then by your owne practize all errors are not alike Obiection But yet will some say are not all the scriptures commaundements of God fundamentall to be obeyed alike c. Let such consider of this scripture 1 Cor.
the truth of God is with them become Yea and Nay so as they may seem to say any thing for defence of theyr Churches estate 5. And from whence proveth he that which here he speaketh of tvvo hy Priests at once c. Doth he shew it from the word of God No. But he saith the Historyes make mention of it So then from the Scriptures he can not bring proof for that he saith For indeed by them we fynd euen in the corruptest tymes but one at once to be by Priest Albeit that of old also there were two which were chief over all the rest the one being principall the other Second See for that of one hy Priest in such tymes these Scriptures Mat. 26.57.62.63.65 Mar. 14.53.60.61.63 Luk. 22.50.54 Ioh. 11.49 18.13.24 Act. 4.6 7.1 23.2 Heb. 5.1 8.3.4.5 And for the other poynt these 2 King 25.18 1 Chron. 24.2.3 2 Sam. 8.17 vvith Numb 3.32 4.16.18 Yea this is so cleare and certayne as for any thing written in the Scripture thereahout this man is driven himself when he looketh thither to confesse and confirme it too As here may be seen in Scriptures which himself hath noted downe 6. Why also doth he not name the Histories that mention these things together with the Persons time place and such like circumstances as might give light to the poynt in hand Is it because he would walk in the dark and hide the truth as much as he can Or is it for that he seeth if these particulars were mentioned there might yet more be answered concerning this matter 7. Finally what maner dealing is this when he knoweth that I have other were written of this very poynt yea and here alledgeth both the ♣ Ansvver to Mr H. Pa. 50 book and page yet not to aunswer any one of all the particulars which there I haue noted out of the Scripture towching this question To that Treatise therefore till it be aunswered â— may and do refer him in this behalf Next where he saith If the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through covetousnes it is not likely that the inferior offices remayned sound c. And It is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution vvere vvholy altered from the right institution c. First I wish the Reader to mynd his maner of reasoning A litle before he sayd he doubted not plainely to take avvay that vvhich vve obiect of theyr outvvard constitution Yet behold the yssue of his first and chiefest proof is all come to this It is not othervvise likely It is very likely c. Thus his playne demonstration if it fitted his turne yet is no other but a meer likelyhood and presumption And that also gathered from other writers not from the Scriptures Is not this theÌ„ think you as playne a taking away of our obiection as it is a sound defence of theyr Church-constitution Neyther barrell better herring But what now if by the Scriptures it be not onely likely but indeed certayne that it was otherwise with the Iewes then here he saith concerning theyr offices and outvvard constitution How hath he then plainely taken away our objection as he pretended Let him search therefore and he shall fynd that they were so farre from admitting any straung functions among them as they * Iohn 1 19-23 vrged Iohn the Baptist to shew warrant for his Ministery from the word of God And besides by theyr silence to Christs question about Iohns baptisme do plainely testify that ‡ Mat. 21.25 26. themselves judged no Ministery lawfull but that which is from heaven that is such onely as is of God not of Men. If here now we would vse his manner of reasoning how great likelyhoods might we justly alledge from these Scriptures to the contrary of that he sayth But to put the matter out of all doubt the Scripture witnesseth of Zachary Iohn Baptists father that he being then one of the Priests executed the Priests office and vvalked in in all the commandements ordinances of the Lord vvithout reproof Luk. 1.5.6.8.9 Which how could it possibly have ben if the offices and constitution of that Church had ben wholy altered as this man here pretendeth Note also that all the Priests then were of the tribe of Levi of the posterity of Aaron consecrated to their functions sitting in that seat which God by Moses had appointed for the Ministery and regiment of that Church Ioh. 1.19 Act. 4.6 Heb. 5.1.4 Mat. 23.2 vvith Deut. 33.4.8.10 Finally Christ himself giveth testimony to the lawfulnes of their Ministery and constitution when he said to the clensed Leper Go shevv thy self to the Priest and offer for thy clensing as Moses hath commaunded Luk. 5.14 By which is most playne that they had at that tyme both the true Ministery and ordinances which God by Moses had appoynted How false then must it needs be that this man saith their offices and outvvard constitution vveâ—e vvholy altered from the right institution But who is so bold aâ— blynd Bayard Of their true offices imported by sitting in Moses chayre I have * A treatise of the Man of England Pag. 54. 55. els where spoken and proved it by divers reasons and testimonyes out of the word of God To which D. B. can fynd no aunswer but yet is loth to yeeld to the truth Moses he sayth vvas a Magistrate What then Therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstood of somevvhat els But why so Doth he not know that Moses in that his governement of Israel even by the commaundement of God appoynted Aaron and his sonnes to the Priests office for the burning of incense before the Lord c. Wherevppon also when Corah and his company did afterward murmure aÌ„d presumed to take the Priests Office vpon them it is sayd they rose vp and gathered themselves together not onely against Aaron to whom it belonged but agaynst Moses also who from God had appoynted him and his sonnes therevnto Lev. 8. 9. chap. vvith Numb 16. 17. 18. chap. Note withall that Moses a litle before his death blessing the tribes of Israel when he had the heads of them assembled together spake thus of Levi turning his speach vnto God Let thy Thummim and thyne vrim be vvith thyne Holy one c. They shall teach Iacob thy judgements and Israel thy Lavv they shal put incense before thy face and the burnt offring vpon thyne altar c. Deut. 33.4.5.8.9.10.11 With which Scripture and speach of Moses if we compare that of Nehemiah where he speaketh of ♣ Neh. 9.3.4.5 c. the Levites stayre or hy seat and theyr standing vpon it vvhen they taught the Lavv c. And that of Christ where he sayd * Mat. 23.2.3 The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chayre observe therefore vvhatsoever they speak c. And that of Iohn where he sayth ‡ Ioh. 1.19.24 the Pharisees vvich vvere sent to Iohn Baptist about his Ministery vvere Priests
Levites Iff I say we consider and compare these Scriptures together how playne is it and vndeniable that Christs speach of sitting in Moses chayre c. doth necessarily imply the true offices and functions which God by Moses ordeyned for the teaching and guyding of Israel in his worship and service Thus also may Moses doctrine which they taught in those offices be fitly vnderstood ād comprised in the same speach And what variety then is there betweē this exposition and that which vnderstandeth it of Moses doctrine as he saith some of our selves have done heretofore Finally how ignorant and frivolous is it that here he pretendeth against this viz. that Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate Whenas all the Scriptures aforesaid do reach that God by Moses appoynted them to this function and service And that so as Moses himself though he were not a Priest ordeyned by solemne rite yet by the appointment off God did annoint not onely the Tabernacle and all that was therein but Aaron also and his sonnes consecrating them to the Priests office and offring all the sacrifices appertayning therevnto Which afterward belonged onely to the Priests for to do Lev. 8. 9. chap. Psal 99.6 vvith Heb. 5.4 But perhaps there is a pad in the straw more lurking in his speach then all men are aware of For what if by these words Moses vvas no Priest but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstād of some vvhat els he insinuate that it is meant of the Magistrates authority and seing Christ inferreth vpon the sitting in Moses chayre All therefore vvhatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do that all people therefore are bound to keep whatsoever the Magistrates do commaund them Will not his words here beare and import thus much Yea may not his vnderstanding it of some what els joyned with the Magistrates authority seem directly to imply it and that so as what they commaund he thinketh it is to be observed be it lawfull or vnlawfull Which if it be his meaning hath he not here then covertly sowē most detestable doctrine both shamefully helping Christ himself ād wickedly crossing the whole Scripture and practise of the faithfull in all ages For proof whereof see but these and the like testimonyes Exod. 1.17 1 Sam. 22.17 Dan. 3 14-28 6.12.13 Mat. 22.21 Act. 4.18.19 and 5.28.29 17.6.7 Heb. 11. chap. Reu. 2.10.13 12.11.17 13.7.15 14.7.12.13 20.4 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 6. 2. Secondly to let their constitution passe vvhich yet as I have said vvould be found as badde or vvorse then ours vve wil examine their corruptions in doctrine Wherein I would knovv of them vvhich are the greater sinnes of these two sorts viz. 1. A false and corrupt outward constitution 2. Or false and corrupt doctrines I thinke they vvill say the corrupt and false doctrines are the greater as they are indeed For that they doe vvound fester and corrupt the very conscience and doe deceive the hearers thereof Whereas the errors in the constitution of a Church especially in some circumstances as the errors with vs are and those of no small controversie in matters also not fundamentall are nothing nere so hurtfull by hovve much the Tithing of Mint Annis Commin are of lesser force then the other vveightier matters of the lavv Novv from hence I Reason thus If the greater sinnes namely in doctrine doe not simply ouerthrovv a companie of Christians from being a true Church Then much lesse vvill the lesser sinnes namely in the outvvard constitution c But the false doctrines which are the greater sinnes themselves confesse by the example of the said Churches doe not Therefore neither will the lesser For the better explayning of this poinct I would pray them resolve me of this question What if a company of Arians Anabaptistes or Papistes should bee gathered and established in a true outward constitution still reteyne their fundamentall errors before * * Sectiō 3 named Whether should their outward constitution make them a true Church yea or no I thinke they will say no. Thus I hope then it appeareth that the outward constitution whether falty or true availeth nothing to the ouerthrowing or making of a true Church vnlesse other doctrines of the foundation either false or true doe concurre therewith And thus their Obiection of the Iewish constitution is I trust fully ansvvered So that still their peremptory separation and condempning of the Churches of England for some outvvard corruptions remayneth still a grievous sinne vpō their heads for vvhich vvithout harty repentance they shall one day aunsvver before God vvhich vvill be too heavie a burthen for them to beare The Aunswer That which Christ sayd to the Scribes and Pharisees VVo be to you blynd guydes vvhich say VVhosoever svveareth by the Temple it is nothing but vvhosoever svveareth by the gold off the Temple Mat. 23.16.17 he offendeth Ye fooles and blynd vvhether is greater the gold or the Temple that sanctifyeth the gold c. May it not in this case also fitly be applyed to this Scribe Specially seing the Church in the constitution thereof if we sever it from the doctrine as here he doth may in divers respects be compared with the Temple and the doctrine of truth taught and vpheld in the Church with the gold of the Temple As both by these Scriptures doth plainely appeare 2 Cor. 6.16.17 vvith 1 Tim. 3.15 1 Cor. 14.5.6.19.23.24.25.33 2 Thes 2.4.4 Rev. 11.1.2 And by this also that God hath made the promise of his presence and blessing to his Church as to the Temple wherein he will dwell it being so constituted and walking as he hath commaunded Lev. 26.11.12 with 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Esa 52.11.12 Ezech. 37.26.27.28 48.35 Mat. 28.20 Yea and this man himself did * Section 3. here a litle before alledge that by gold and siluer spoken of 1 Cor. 3.12 the Apostle meaneth true doctrine Which if it were so there then by his owne exposition may that saying of Christ to the Pharisees well be applyed to him in this case Secondly I aske Doth not the constitution be it true or false alway include the whole body of the Church whereas the false Doctrine is often found but in some members thereof This may be seen in the Churches of Israel Corinth Galatia Pergamus etc. In which respect also the false and corrupt constitution may be of greater waight and more danger then the false and corrupt Doctrine inasmuch as the wounding and infecting of the whole body is far worse then of some parts onely and because the parts so infected if they cannot otherwise beholden may be cut of and yet the body preserved Not contrarily For the better explaning whereof let him resolve me which of these propositions is the truer viz. VVhere there is in a Church false doctrine there is a false Church Or this VVhere there is a false constitution there is a
Iewes * Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13 Amos. 4.4.5 Esa 1.12.13 polluted the table of the Lord and made their oblations to be in vaine yea if the abuses in Corinth about the Sacrament made that ‡ 1 Cor. 11.20 it was not the eating of the Lords supper what then shal be thought of the heynous abominations of Antichrist retained among you in the Sacraments Your distinction of simply abolishing is but leaven of your owne borrowed from your Prelates and by them from the Papists We plainely affirme that your abuses and corruptions are such as the Sacraments among you are not duely administred according to Christs ordinance and that it cannot be showed by the word of God that they seale vp Gods covenant of grace to your Church and the members thereof in that estate Now see that according to your promise you refute this And prove that notwithstanding all your corruptions mentioned yet Christ acknowledgeth your Sacramēts for his also that the good things and ordinances of Christ wanting among you are not of necessitie requisite In the meane time know that none can partake in the administration of your Sacraments but they must needs withall partake in your sinnes before rehearsed Which the Lord hath most straitly forbidden Rev. 18.4 and 14.9.10.11 Exod. 20.4.5 Psal 119.21 Mal. 1.7.8.13.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Amos. 4.4.5 and 5.5 Ephes 5.11 The particulars of your Article you say you omitted for breuities sake Let others beleev you that will for mine owne part I neither do nor can beleev it You have here taken paines to write an whole book and in it a multitude of words to no purpose Is it likely then that for brevity sake you would omit the most speciall points of the Article which may be written in a line or two at the most Nay M. Iacob these clauses of faithfull men duely according to Christs ordinance are so ful and pregnant against you as you thouht it no wisdome to mention them at all but rather in silence to bury them vnder some generall terme or as your self speak to comprehend them in a generall clause This in deed was the best way to darken the truth and help your self if any way you could But any that mind your manner of dealing may easily see that if these clauses had made but a tenth part so much for you as they are fully against you then you would have ben so far from omitting thē as we should have had them noted downe in greater letters then the rest For your Article it self if the meaning of it were to comprehend those points in your generall clause why then did it so particularly mention them besides Were the framers of your Article so ignorant or carelesse think you as in a brief descriptiō of such a waighty matter they would commit so many vaine and needles tantologies Nay rather they judged all these particulars absolutely needfull specially that Christs ordinance be had and observed and that also in all things of necessitie requisite How say you is not this the meaning of the Article How fondly then and how vnconscionably have you abused not onely your pen and tounge but even your Church and book of Articles whereon you seeme for to rely How just cause also have I then still to demaund where and what your proofes be touching the particulars of your owne description of a visible Church Your parable of a Landlord and a Tenaunt besides that it is popish and against your selues as hath ben shewed it is also false You have not had possession time out of minde as you pretend It is but yesterday since this your Samaritane and misceline religion began viz since King Henry the eight Now also Christ the King and Lord of his Church doth by his servants lay claime to his owne right and disclaimeth your false worship and Ministerie So your owne saying is against your self Nullum tempus occurrit Regi No time doth preiudice the King If you plead your right by any more auncient date as from Christ and his Apostles the evidence may soone be shewed from their writings If you doe it not all men of wisdome will not onely condemne your folly who take vpon you the defence of so bad a cause but will also perceive the impietie of your Churches estate for which no warrant can be shewed frō Apostolik writ For our going out from among you when before we had held part of possession with you I brought warrant from the worde of God which you touch not at all That it lieth vpon you yea and that your self have taken it vpon you to approve your Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion of people c. appeareth not onely by the title of your book which is called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England but by reason also that you began the first Argument and continew to replie Wherevpon you are bound to proue what is denied or in this case put vnto you to be proved We then in aunswer to your Argument noting the falshood of your Hierarchy worship c. it is your part now to approve them by the word of God or to convince that they abolish not your constitution from being Christs If you cannot doe this confesse it and give glory to God That your case is thus hath ben often shewed by vs both in other writings and in these aunswers to your self And of this point there will be occasion afterward to speak againe Touching the impudent vntruth wherewith you were charged first you sayd your selves see not wherein you faile touching Preaching or Sacraments in things necessary I alledged your owne men as witnesses to convince you therein The Admonition T. C. his replies the Demonstration c. Now you aunswer that none of all these do graunt any thing to be wanting vvith you that is necessary to the being of a Church simply nor to the being of a true Ministery or Sacraments but onely to their vvell and convenient being By which bold assertion of yours you both prove and persist in the impudent vntruth laid to your charge For hearken now and you shall heare themselves testifie thus much The first Admonition in the Preface sayeth thus In a fevv vvordes to speake vvhat vve meane Either must vve have a right Ministery of God Admonitiō to the Parliam first and second and a right government of his Church according to the Scriptures set vp both vvhich vve lack or els there can be no right Religion nor yet for contempt thereof can Gods plagues be from vs any vvhile differred And againe in the treatise it self are these words We in England are not yet come to the outvvard face of a Church agreable to Gods vvord Or as it is written in the margent of divers of those books we are scarce come to the outvvard face of a Church c. Take which of these you please the best is bad ynough Touching the Ministerie in particular the same book and men say thus We have an
Antichristian Hierarchy and a popish ordering of Ministers strange from the vvord of God and the vse of all vvel reformed Churches in the vvorld And further Although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the booke of God Then touching the Sacraments thus they write The Sacraments are vvickedly mangled and prophaned Also In the primitive Churches they administred the Sacrament simply as they received it from the Lord vve sinfully mixed vvith mans inventions and devises Yea they charge the Prelates that they doe superstitiously and vvickedly institute a nevv Sacrament vvhich is proper to Christ onely marking the child in the forehead vvith a Crosse in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ And of your book of coÌ„mon prayer according to which your Sacraments and other divine service is administred thus also they write we must needes say that this book is an vnperfit book culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse book full of all abominations To conclude withall thus they testifie concerning these things controverted betweene them and the Prelates Neyther is the controversy betvvixt them and vs as they vvould beare the vvorld in hand for a cap a tippet or a surplus but for greater matters concerning a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church according to the vvord Which things once established the other melt away of theÌ„selues Being once established say they Therefore yet they did not account they had them And whereof speak they All may see of a true Ministery and Regiment of the Church Now speak your self Mr. Iacob Do not these men testifie to your face that you have avouched a bold and impudent vntruth wilfully striving against the cleare light Yet I have cited but a few and those onely out of the Admonitions to the Parliament Out of which and the rest of their writings I might alledge a thousand mo to convince you herein But that would be too tedious And these I doubt not will cleare the point and suffice any that are indifferent and godly minded For your self I say no more but wish you had not verified the Orators saying He that once passeth the bounds of modestie becomes impudent out of measure Hitherto of the first Exception Chap. 5. The second Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforesayd Fran. Iohnson SEcondly tell vs whether you hold and professe Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other And if you do then shew vs how your practise agreeth with this profession H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 2. Excep TO this second Exception That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King I aunswere The Booke of Articles our Ministers now and Congregations generally do hold and professe the same our practise being answerable likewise therevnto euen as before time Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and such like with their Congregations did then viz. That Christ is our Prophet Priest and King and to be obeyed in his owne ordinances onely in no other This I say we generally professe and practise Hovvbeit this note vvith all vve hold Christs ordinance to be of tvvo sorts writteÌ„ or vnwritteÌ„ the first necessary the secoÌ„d arbitrary The first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the invvard opinion only such as these The doctrine of God his Nature his Persons his Properties of the Messias Christ Iesus of Iustification of Sanctification of the ResurrectioÌ„ c. Wherein standeth the †1 Cor. 3.12.13 foundation of saving faith All these must be in the vvritten vvord or els to be none of Christes The second touching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truely called and counted Christes ovvne also although particularly deuised and appointed by the Church vvhom Christ hath authorised therevnto euen as it shall be thought most fit and profitable for the preseÌ„t times places and persons such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies to be because they be not simply of the foundation neither written nor certen nor perpetuall but at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate and yet to be Christes ovvne neuerthelesse vvho hath left this libertie for the Church to vse Thus vve hold and thus vve practise and vve are persvvaded no Scripture to be against all this but rather for it I speak novv concerning our Ministers and Congregations generally that is our publique Church state If you say but there are divers amongst vs that thinke othervvise I aunsvver But this is the generall estate both of our Ministers and Churches hovvsoever one or tvvo amongst huÌ„dreths or thousands may thinke othervvise shevv the contrary if you can And our Churches they certenly must be deemed after their generall estate and constitution not as one or tvvo men thinke If you say this generall opinion and practise is an error Therfore they obey not Christs ordinances in truth herein though they thinke they do I aunsvver let it be so it is novv “ An error though not fundamentall the error of their iudgment as it vvas in Maister Cranmer Ridley c. Not pregnaunt rebellion and disobedience to Christ not a convicted or seared conscience so that their other “ 1 Cor. 3 1â—.15 truthes of the foundation are not frustrat nor Christ made to none effect in them And this is all our question whether they remaine Christians still for all these faultes yea or no. F. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Excep IN this Exception we demaunded first if you held Iesus Christ to be the Prophet Priest and King of his Church to be obeyed in his owne ordinance only and in no other then how your practise agreeth with this profession One would have thought it had ben needfull if you could to have cleared this poinct by the Scriptures and from thence to have proved your Ministery worship Church gouernement c. which are called jn question to be no other then the Lord Iesus Christ that Prophet Priest and King of his Church hath in his Testament given and appointed therevnto But this you have not done And let the Reader note it But what then do you say First you tell vs That touching this poinct your profession and practise now is so as before time it vvas vvith M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer and their CoÌ„gregations But what of this Can the persons or age of these whom you name nay can any person or ages preiudice the truth Were not they subiect to error at all Or must their errors bind vs Did not Iohn Hus that champion of Christ and others also of the Martyrs in former times say and heare Masse even to their dying day See their historyes in the Acts and Monuments not seeing the abominations thereof And did not divers of them acknowledge some the Popes calling and Supremacy some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some
Wherefore in this saying if you say to the purpose you then affirme the Third generall poinct that I noted in you at the beginning of this my last Replie That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience But here I maruaile that you say Maister Hus and other of the holy Martirs did heare and say Masse till their dying day Also that others did acknowledg the Popes supremacie I aske you do you meane that they held and vsed the Popish Masse according to all the abominations that are in it If you thinke so then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest were holy Martirs For therein are found errors plainly fundamentall which of themselues abolish from Christ They are not to be compared to our publique errors now in England The like I say of the Popes supremacy If you thinke any of the Martirs acknowledged it in the large and ample meaning thereof as the Popish Doctors do set it downe Then verily neither were they any Martirs The book of Acts and Monuments whither you send vs affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort It may be therefore they held many and greeuous errors of ignorance both in the Popish Masse in the supremacy which might neuerthelesse stand with Christ crucified And so they might be and were holy Martirs But I affirme that according to the damnable grossenes of the very Papists they neither did nor could hold them Therefore in these instances you say nothing to vs nor against the question in hand Further you sayd before in the beginning of your defence of this Exception “ pag. 29. That Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer and the rest of the Martirs then neither had themselues nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Now I see you make no conscience of vntruthes yea you are bold to auouch open and knowne falshoods Did not Maister Cranmer hold him selfe for Archbishop still and that he vvas by the Pope vniustly and vnsufficiently deposed and by Queene Mary forcibly restreined from it Did he euer repent of holding that Office till his death Also did not Ridley stand vpon his right to the Bishopricke of London though ready to dye Latimer though he renounced his Bishoprick yet he kept his Ministery and neuer repented him of it Philpot neuer misliked his Archdeaconry Yea vvhen he refused bloudy Bonner yet he appealed to his ordinary the Bishop of Winchester The like minde is to be seene in Bishop Farrar And generally vvhosoeuer vvere Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they neuer renounced it though they dyed Martirs Thus appeareth your bold vntruth in this behalfe Further in your Sixt ansvver Pag 32. First you vvill not see vvhat I meane in saying That these outvvard orders be not of the foundation simply I meant not at all of the very ‡ 1 Cor. 15.2 3.4 Rom. 4.25 1 Cor. 3.10.11.12.13.14 foundation neither are they Secondly you aske if our outward orders vnder Christ be not fundamentall aswell as the Iewes vnder the Law I aunsvver neither vvere the Ievves outvvard orders of the very foundation vvithout vvhich they could not be saued Thirdly you aske how Corah c. differing from Moses and Aaron only about the Priesthood and Ministery were separated from and damned I annsvver not that the matter vvas fundamentall but the manner vvas rebellious vvith consciences a thousand times conuicted and so donne vvith a high hand against God himselfe But novv this considered Hovv vainely doe you charge me in your entrance into this Exception pa. 29. That I and others of my mind goe about to iustifie these matters of order in controuersie by Cranmer Ridleys and Latimers example and their congregations then For shame do you not see the contrary that I call them errors I onely iustifie by their example that these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ as theirs did not And that I trust is sound Which thing also you might haue remembred if you had ben so charitable by that vvhich I vvrot in * In the next treatiâ—e follovving of the comparison of the Ministery vvith Mariage Auns to your first Reason another place Then in your first aunsvver Pag 30. Hovv vainely do you aske vs for Scriptures to proue these orders seeing I expreslie called them errors The like in your Second vvhere you load vp Scriptures to disproue them Also thirdly you charge an vnconscionable vntruth on me if you meane this aunsvver vnto me that I should graunt and cannot deny that all outward ceremonies gouernement are arbitrary at mans pleasure I only said that our state holdeth that generall opinion Not that I my selfe held it If you meane them vvrite to theÌ„ and speake to them if you meane me you do me foule iniury Fourthly whether they are Popish shiftes or no let our state vvhich maintaineth these things aunsvver you Your Fift is aunsvvered in the first poinct of my explication noted before pag 35. To your Sixt in pag 32. vve aunsvvered before in the Second poinct of my explication pag 35. Your seuenth in pag 34. is also against the state of our Church and not against me Fr Io. his Aunswer to M. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 2. Excep PItie not me but pitie your self Mr. Iacob and your Churches estate Your self who are miserably weak and yet foolishly wilfull as all may see by this Reply Your Churches estate which is such as by the word of God cannot be approved to have Christ your Prophet Priest and King Therefore still you tell vs your Church holdeth Christ to haue left written what is needfull for your inward and meer spirituall belief and obedieÌ„ce but that for the outward Church-order he hath not so done but left it arbitrary to be appointed and abrogated agayne at the liking of the Churche and Magistrate As if Christ had abolished the * Exod. 20.4.5.6 second coÌ„maÌ„dement which directly concerneth the outward worship and order of the Church as the ‡ Exod. 20.3 first doth our inward and spiritual belief Or as if the Scripture did not every where teach that “ Col. 2 3.5.8.19-23 Esa 33.22 Heb. 3.1.2.3 2 Ioh ver 9. Epist to Timoth. Tit. Cor. c. he hath fully furnished the Church not onely for inward faith but also for outward order and obedieÌ„ce Eyther therefore you must approve the outward order and worship of your Church to be ordeined by Christ in his word or els you have not him for your Prophet Priest and King in that estate Chuse which you will The liberty you speak of is nothing els but a cloke of licenciousnes or in deed meer Antichristian slavery howsoeuer you account it liberty That the word of God forbiddeth it I have showed both here and in my * Pag. 30 former answer against which you can say nothing Now therefore when this will not serue the turne you begin to coÌ„ment and make notes vpon your owne explication that
as for your owne You know that very many of the Martyrs were popish Priests And if there were no other proof even their degradation from that Priesthood doth testifie it You might also thus plead for retaining and allowing of Monks and Fryars because some of them have died Martyrs and yet not renounced their callings and functions This I alledged ‡ In the aunsvver to your 1. Replie to the 1 Reasō follovving heretofore but you cannot yet finde any leasure to aunswer it Yet now for that you speak here what will you say to †Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 934. a. such as being degraded of their Ministerie received from the Prelates thanked God that they were delivered from the malignāt Church of Antichrist Did they not by this and such like speach and cariage noted in their stories declare how willingly they left both that Church Ministery worship and whatsoever belonged thereto Although through ignorance of the time they saw not some things wherein since their daies God hath given a greater light To end this point then howsoever it be for their renouncing certaine it is as their stories show that such of them as had receved Ministerie from the Prelates were before their death not only excommunicate as were the rest of the Martyrs but degraded also from the functions and Ministerie they had received So as it cannot but be as I said that when they dyed Martyrs they neither had nor ioyned with the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for See the * Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 895. b. 934. a. 1361. b. 1385. a. 1604. a. storie in the degrading of Richard Bayfield Henry Forest Mr. Saunders Mr. Tailor Mr. Ridley c. Thus the bold vntruth wherewith you charge me falsly is returned iustly vpon your owne head Next after this which was in the beginning of my defence as your self have noted you come to the sixt point of my aunsvver passing by the other things which come between Is this to reply soundly Is this your worthy Confutation which your followers judge vnaunswerable What I pray may be the cause why you snatch thus here a peece and there a peece and prosecute not my aunswer in order from point to point as I gave it Is it because I handle things disorderly or passe by any thing in your Reply vnaunswered If I do show it But in deed is it not because you are not able to reply against my aunswer as it is given and therefore are glad to lay hold sometimes of one thing sometimes of another as you think you can best deale with that so you may trouble the Reader and seeme to say some thing when in deed you say nothing at all Let the Reader but well mind this Reply of yours and then judge if ever he saw anie thing more raw frivolous cōfused absurd Yet such as it is let vs see now what you say to that point of my aunswer whereof you speake next First you tell vs that where you said before the outward orders of the Church be not of the foundation simply you meant not at all of the verie foundation I see your meaning now Mr. Iacob which before I neither did nor could Sure you had need make a Commentarie vpon your Replie if you expound your words euerie where as you do here But now that you have told vs your meaning will you stand vnto it Do you indeed by not simply meane not at all Then marke what straūg assertions lurke in your writing which before we could not perceiue In one place you say * Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 7. Reasō following The Papists forbidding of marriage and meates if they had done no worse doth not make them departers from the faith that is not totally or as you have it in the Margent not fundamentally not simply And then you adde No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Now by your owne exposition your meaning is that none of these make them departers from the faith at all For by not simply you say you meane not at all Thus you teach most shamefull false doctrine and make the holy Ghost a liar who even “ 1 Tim. 4.1.3 for these things saith they do depart from the faith Againe you say ‡ Your 1. Reply to the 1. Reason following The doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions and practise of your Church do not ioyne togeather Christ and Antichrist simply that is not at all by this your new coined meaning And yet in the same place you confesse they ioyne togeather Christ and some outward ceremonies and orders of Antichrist It is false then that they ioyne not Christ and Antichrist at all as by this interpretation must be your meaning And even here a little before you said †Pag. 35. to beleeue practise as your Church doth for your Church-gouernemēt rites and orders simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ that is by this exposition not at all But your Church so beleeveth and practiseth these things as is derogatorie both to the office of Christ the faithfulnes of the Apostles and the perfection of the Scriptures and such as do not so beleeve and practise but witnes the truth against them they imprison banish kill and thus become guiltie of innocent bloud Yet you are bold to blesse your self your whole Church and greatest persecuters in all these mischiefs affirming that thus to beleev and practise destroieth not at all any mans salvation in Christ For when you say not simply you will have vs vnderstand your meaning to be not at all Yea you take it ill because I will not see this to be your meaning But now I doubt you will be more grieved because I see it so well Yet it were better Mr. Iacob if in time you were grieved at your self for vsing such vngodly elusions to turne away the truth See you not what pesriferous doctrine your Reply by this meanes yeelds euery where Marvell not at it It is just with God to make your owne pen the publisher of your owne follie and impietie seeing you will needs plead for Antichrist against the cleare light But let vs come to examine the point it self You say the outward orders of the Church are not at all of the verie foundation What say you then to that which is written Heb. 6.1.2 Doth not the Apostle speaking there †Heb. 6.1.2 of his laying the foundation mention in particular the doctrine of Baptismes and laying on of hands besides repentance from dead vvorks and consequently from mens traditions in Gods worship How say you Do not these concerne the outward orders of the Church And doth not the Apostle reckon them with the rest there named in his laying of the foundation I could also put you in mind how it concerneth the Churches outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be head of the church or Christ only whether Circumcision be now to be observed or not c. But these and
* Ezech. 43.8 that they set their posts and threshalls by Gods posts and Treshalls that is their inuentions by Gods ordinances Howe also was it that the Samaritans spoken of 2. King 17. sacrificed to the true God euen “ Ezra 4.2 the Lord God of the Iewes offering vnto him burnt offrings and meat offringes and peace offringes Or howe came it they still vsed Circumcision and wayted for the Messiah to come as he was promised in the writen word of God yea knowing also and beleeuing not only that the Messiah should come which is called Christ Ioh. 4.25 but also that when he came he would tel them al things The Corinthian infidels in deed as the rest of the Heathen knew not the true God by his writtē word But so it was not with the Samaritanes or Tenne tribes fallen from Iudah as is euident by the scriptures and reasons before alleadged To that which you speak of your profession and practise referring vs to your answer to the Second Exception going before I haue there answered it Onely this I adde here That seing it cannot in truth be denyed but the publique constitution of your Assemblies and estate of your Ministers and people therin is a most impious transgressiō of the Second cōmādemēt which the Lord himself calleth “ Nūb. 15.39 Revel 11.8 17.1.2.3.4.5 spiritual whoredome against him yea grieuous iniquitie and hatred of him threatning also to ‡ Exod. 20.5 visit it vpon the Fathers and children so remayning to the Third and Fourth generation Therefore by it are the truthes you professe made frustrate vnto you in this estate Neither will it help you to pretend that it is your error in iudgement For what abomination is there that might not thus be coloured And further seeing your publik professiō and practize is at the best a ioyning of Christ Antichrist togeather as hath bene shewed therefore can you not by the word of God be deemed in this estate to bee true Christians or true constituted Churches And the Scriptures applyed to proue this consequent are fitlie alleadged False therefore it is that you say we sinned against the Third commaundement in the application of the Scriptures aforesaid That is your owne common custome and lamentable sinne to break this commaundement by taking Gods name in vaine not onely in falsifying and peruerting the Scriptures for your turne but in your administration also of the Word Sacraments Church-gouernment by vertue of such offices callings as Christ neuer appointed but were first devised and are reteined by Antichrist Hitherto of your answer cōcerning the proof of the Propositiō To the proof of the Assumption you †Let the Reader therfore mynde in Mr Iacob this his sound and Scholler-like dealing answer not a word Fr. Io. which yet most of all required answer if you would in deed soundlie defend your estate as you pretend That your profession and practise ioyneth Christ Antichrist togeather I shewed by your Articles Canons Iniunctions Aduertisements c. by your present Ministery Worship Church-gouernement according therevnto If it be not so why bring you not warrant for these from the Testament of Christ and so take away the proof of the Assumption If it be so as by your silence you graunt and we are sure by the Scriptures the contrary cannot be showed then the Assumption standeth firme and consequently in this constitution you cannot be accounted true Christians nor your Assemblies so gathered true constituted Churches H. Iacob his 2. Reply vnto the 1. Reason IN this your defence of your first Reason you would first of all fasten on me a contradiction for graunting that our Church corruptions are from Antichrist which against your Second Exception I sayd we holde to be Christes owne viz. Because we hold Christ hath giuen his Church that libertie to deuise them Alas it pittieth me to see your simplicity or it greeueth me for your malice vvho could not see that there * See Pag. 28. 35. I spake in the person of our vvhole Church and state and shevved vvhat they held And here I speak as I thought my selfe This is a silly contradiction Then you say Pag. 62. I dazell the peoples eyes in saying some outward orders and ceremonies are from Antichrist as if they were but few and of small moment Therefore you are content to recken them vp full tediously God knovveth euen 91. in number numero Deus impare gaudet And vvhat of all these vvill you say therefore that vvhosoeuer holdeth these cannot hold Christ vnto saluation And so Mr. Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs vvere damned But if not Then I say againe These some these 91. are too few and too slight and of too small moment of themselues and of their owne nature to abolish vs from Christ This ought you to haue proved which you never do but still your speach is most false and not vnproper onely that we ioyne Christ and Antichrist togeather As in the maimed man before ‡ Pag. 57. 62. noted there is not life and death ioyned togeather but living things and dead things are and yet the man aliue and a true man Then you will iustifie your applying the ‡ 2 Cor 6.14 c. Eze. 43.8 2 King 17.33.34.40.41 Scriptures which I sayd were mismatched and were meant against the Idolatry of the First commandement not against the Idolatry of the Second onely and meerlye as our Church orders in question are Therefore these Scriptures cannot inferre any abolishing from Christ by simple holding of the corruptions in our Church vvhich they doe proue by the simple holding of those Heathenish Idolatries vvhereof they speake To this you reply in Foure points 1 If these places bee meant of Heathenish Idolatrie which could never stand with Gods truth togeather Yet they forbid all other corruptions against the Second commaundement also That I neuer denied to be true after a sort These places indeede do forbid the breach of the Secōd commaundement but not principally directly and of purpose nor in that measure of fulnes But their immediate purpose is against the Heathenish Idolatry breaking the First commaundement So that they forbidde the breach of the Second commaundement consequently and proportionately but not in that full manner as they doe the First They forbid the First so as that they shew there is no cōmunion vvith God vvhilst men ioyne in such Idolatry they simply forbid the Second but deny not all communion vvith God to vvhome soever erreth therein 2 To your Second Reply I say make much of it for my parte I neuer thought other but our church corruptions are against the Second commaūdement 1 Sam. 15. Your second Scripture here applyed is of Saull a presumptuous and vvilfull offendour if you make our vvhole Churches so your sinne is the greater 3 Thirdly if you meane any of Antichrists Idolatrie and false vvorship and namely this in question the outward corrupt orders
Agayne when in the first place you say thus we practise and in the latter we shevved before and both these are true of your self who could exclude you from being one of the number in both the places Further it is here to be noted how playnely you affirme these two things agayne 1. That your Church-corruptions are from Antichrist 2. That yet your Church holds them to be Christs owne A most silly absurd and godles defence of a Church as ever was seen That it is tedious vnto you to have your corruptions reckned vp it is no marvell Yet if they be so odious as it grieue you to heare them but named why doth it not more affect you to practise them to partake in and with them and so to increase your sinnes and iudgement before the Lord Heretofore when you preached against them and sued to the Parliament to haue them remoued it was a pleasure to you and all the Reformists to name them to print them to make your pulpits ring of theÌ„ and every where to cry out against them as most filthy and abominable Then if any reckned vp “ Admon to the Parl. Miles Monopodius The Râ—gisur c. above an hundred of them together one after another they were nothing tedious but very welcome Now to mention or heare but some of them is altogether yrksome A very great and strauÌ„ge alteration yet in deed not to be marveled at if it be well mynded For then you seemed to seek and stand for the truth now you resist and strive against it then you would professe Christ against the Prelates now you do hand your selues with them against him And yet behold in all these evils you blesse your selves and them toâ— For what els is this that you say these multitude of Antichristian abominations abolish vs not from Christ Is it not as if you sayd ‡ Deut 29.19 We shall have peace though we walk according to the stubbernes of our hearts Alas Mr Iacob that you should come to this height of impiety thus to blesse and please your selves in the vnrighteousnes of Antichrist that some of perdition then which what greater iudgement could haue come vpon you 2 Thes 2 12. This is not to break and teach to break one of the least commaundements but many of the greatest Mat. 5.19 Now vnlike are you and such other false Prophets of the Beast which say these are to fevv to sleight of to small moment c. How vnlike I say are you to the Prophets of God and Martyrs of Iesus who did alway cry out and witnesse against the least Idolatry they saw amoÌ„g the people They did not sow pillowes vnder their elbowes as you do but denounced the judgements of God against them and refused to partake in their iniquitie So do not you But this belike is your following of Christ this is your obedience of faith even to plead for Antichrist and to do the works of darknes and abomination and yet to say with your hypocriticall forefathers Is not the Lord among vs No evill can come vnto vs. Micah 30 11. Yet you would have vs beleâ—â— that you go not about to dazell the peoples eyes c. Yes Mr. Iacob you do it and proceed in it daily from evill to worse But flatter your selues and them towching the constitution of your Church as long as you will with your lying words of Christ of fayth Ierem. 7.4 c. like as the Iewes amidst all their impieties still vaunted of the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord c. yet this remaineth vpon your heads notwithstanding that these abominations of Antichrist retained among you do of themselues and of their owne naturâ— abolish your Assemblies from being the Churches of Christ or holding his faith in that constitution and practise This I haue proved †Pag. 3.16.60.63 c. before wherein if you rest not you may reply againe Or if you desier more evidence see these Scriptures 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 2 Thes 2-12 Col. 2.8.20.21.22.23 Psal 119.21 Ephes 5.11 1 Ioh. 4.3 and 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Rev. 13.11 and 14.9.10.11 and 17 1-6 and 18. and 19. chap. and 22.18 19. And for mans record see Mr Beza who is as playne as playne may be In an epistle written in the yeare 1566. to Mr Grindall then Bishop of Lord â—â— concerning the present estate of the Church of England thus he saith If those things be true Bez. Epist. 8. vvhich I think haue not likely hood of truth viz that the Metropolitans retaine in vse those most filthy abuses then which the Church of Antichrist hath not any thing more intolerable namely pluralityes of benefices licences of non-residency licences to marry and eat flesh and other the like this vvere certainely vvhich I speak with horrour not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ and therefore they not to be condemned but praysed rather vvhich should oppose themselues to such endevours These are his words Where note 1. That the things are most true and rise among you which he thought were not so much as likely 2. That he speaketh but of fower or five of your corruptions and yet sayth they are a manifest apostasy and departure froÌ„ Christ yea such as he affirmeth he speaketh not without horrour How miserable then is the estate of your Church which hath not onely these fower or five but even an huge masse and endles multitude besides And how fearfull is the case of you all who will yet notwithstanding still abide in that Church and therefore cannot but partake in her sinnes Rev. 13.4 and be subject to her plagues Most of all what an heavy Wo hangeth ouer your head Mr Iacob who feare not yet so boldly to affirme that these some these 91. are to fevv and to sleight and of to small moment of themselues of their owne nature to abolish you from Christ Is not this to strengthen the hands of the wicked that he should not returne from his wicked way by promising him life Is it not to say vnto him Thou art righteous every one that doth evill is good in the sight of the Lord and he deliteth in them Yea is it not to please your selves in vnrighteousnes to condemnation Ezech. 13.22 Mal. 2.17 2 Thes 2.12 Then also why proue you not that which you say You heare beside the Scriptures before alledged that Mr Beza speaking but of fower or five of your abominations sayth they are a manifest defection from Christ Now I suppose you will not deny but manifest defection from Christ doth of it self and of it owne nature abolish from Christ Besides if it be true of fower or five of your corruptioÌ„s how much more of your 91. yea of your hundreds Specially when to the retayning of them you haue now a long tyme added persecution against the truth for the maintenance of them Or what will you aunswer to your self Mr Iacob who haue
against all the transgressions thereof Or will it take hold of others and shall you staye free Howsoever your self seem careles what you say or do yet let others mynd their fearfull estate in that Church which retaineth such a multitude of Antichristian corruptions here graunted by your self to be against the Second commaundement the breach whereof God hath threatned to punish most severely And let it be observed that you who have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches and Ministery yet cannot deny that to be your estate Behold then to what issue your Defence is come in the end And now that you see hovv much I have made of this point at your request forget not to thank me for it in your next Reply The Scripture here alledged you would turne away from your selves by saying it is of Saul a presumptuous offender 1 Sam. 15.23 But that Scripture is not for Saul onely but for “ 1 Cor. 10.11 Rom. 15.4 others likewise And how will you shew that Saul was a more presumptuous and wilfull offender then your self and your Church Nay how will you shew that his sinne was meerly of presumption and wilfulnes The Scripture mentioneth two other causeâ— alledged by himself ‡ 1 Sam. 15.15 an intent to sacrifice to the Lord and †vers 24. feare of the people 〈◊〉 and your Church can hardly yeeld like reasons for your selvâ—s â—et if you could they 〈◊〉 not sâ—â—nd before God as this Scripture witnesseth Your clause of making your whole Churches so importeth that you take the case of some the 〈◊〉 not of all among you to be as Sauls was Then take you heed Mr. Iacob and the rest of like iudgement and practise as you â—re What I think of your whole Churches as towching their constitution I have often shewed before 3. For the third I meane it of the Antichristian abominations remayning among you and the like Neither could you be ignorant hereof seing I had a litle ♣ Pag. 63.64.65 before reckned vp so many of them in particular But you would not seem to know it because you can not prove the contrarie against it For proof of my assertion I alledg these Scriptures Exod. 20. 〈◊〉 compared with 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 6.3.4.5 Col. 2.8 Revel 1â— â—0 10.11 with ver 4. ver 12. Revel 17 1-6 with Hos 2.2 Prou. 6.27 28.32 7.22.23.27 9 13-18 2 Thes 23-12 2 Ioh. vers 9.10.11 Your inwrapping of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I have vnfolded before Pag. 8.41 Of all the reasons and differences which I named concerning you and them you picke out but one or two and the rest you passe by Now of them which you except against the first is that they suffred to death for the truth they saw Which my words you have altered thus that they for seeke all the corruptions they saw But beside the alteration your answer also is to be noted I alledged hat the Martyrs suffred to death for the truth they saw you answer this belongeth to many thousands in England no lesse then to them Can you now iustifie either your dealing or your answer Or can you shew seme hundreds of your Church in stead of your manie thousands For myne owne part if you had thousands of such I wish they were many millions But I feare that the contrarie of your speach is to true viz that there are many thousands in England so far from suffring death for the truth they see like those Martyrs as they will not 〈◊〉 imprisoÌ„ment bannishement losse of goods or the like for that truth which they do not onely see but which themselues have heretofore professed preached sued for to the Parliament c. So far are they from for â—alâ—ing all the corruption they see that I may vse your owne words Yea who can think otherwise by their estate and practise but if a Queâ—â— Mary came againe which God for did the 〈◊〉 of the Land would 〈◊〉 as the Prince beleveth and be ready to receive againe the points of Poperie now reiected as it was heretofore after King Edwards decease Marke that I speake of the face of the Land generally not of ever it particular person therein Of divers among you I have better hope as I have shewed before pag. 7. Yet for your generall state as the questioÌ„ is who can say but you are readie to receive any religion or any thing in religion to go forward or backward even as pleaseth the Prince and best fitteth your turne for avoiding of trouble and enioying your ease wealth safety c. And where then be the many thousaÌ„ds you speak of Or may wee think this is to forsake corruption and hold forth the truth as the Martyrs did Nay Mr. Iacob it is far from it And this you may note as a great difference between your estate and the Martyrs and ioyne it to the other mentioned before pag. 40.41 Now where you say there are infinite of your Church that know not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignorant of redemption by Christ c. How shew you this to be true Although if it be it is no great commendation to your Church considering what meanes of further knowledg God hath vouchsafed since that tyme. But of this point I will not stand so much I aunswer that to make your comparison hold you must compare with those learned men the learned among you and with the vnlearned then the vnlearned of yours now So shall your self and others see how vntrue your speach is Although I doubt not but even many of the vnlearned among you who have knowledge of redemption by Christ know also more of the corruptions aforesaid then those learned men did Towching that you speak of my self I have aunswered before Pag. 41. The second thing you except against concerning the Martyrs is that I said the things now controverted were not then so called in question and coÌ„vinced against them by the Scriptures as now they haue ben against you So I sayd Now speak you were they or not If they were shew it If not yeeld it But you would have me to meane this towching some few among you and not of all If it were but so yet then the thing is done more synce then in those daies But in deed the calling in question and conviction of these things hath not ben onely to some few as you would perswade The Admonitions have ben to the whole Parliament which are as the body of the whole Land and gathered from all the quarters thereof Your preaching likewise against those corruptions hath gone throughout the whole Realme So have your books written and printed against them Finally our testimony by word writing imprisomnent exile death is knowen throughout the Land Why then would you have me speak this of some few that here and there might be picked out And whereas you cannot deny but the case of some among
Disciples who also were Iewes observed them not and therefore the Pharisees complained Thus you see they were not received of all the Iewes as heretofore I shewed not onelie in the Disciples but in divers other by name Pag. 84. Of whom you cannot denie but it is true They were the personall sinnes of some not the publik established Law neither generallie received and practised in that Church as I noted yours to be in your Assemblies that is of all the members thereof Neither is there anie comparison between yours and theirs as besides that which I have shewed before may appeare even by the vvaterpots here mentioned by your self Of the lawfull or vnlawfull vse whereof I need not stand to speak it being evident that they were no waie so vnlawfull or of such nature as your corruptioÌ„s are Let this then which hath ben said suffice to shew how true and pertinent my aunswers be That there is no contrariety between anie thing spoken here and in the sixt Reason following the Reader may see And that it is your self who do evill and defend it too there need no other witnes but the title and contents of your book togeather with your estate Concerning the thing which here you obiect I have proved alreadie that * Mat. 15.9 this and ‡ See before Pag. 83. other Scriptures being spoken of vaine worshippers in the true Church have ben and may be alledged much more against all vaine worship in the false Church whether it be yours or the Papists or anie other whatsoever And saie your self if the Martyrs have not both ben perswaded that the Iewes were a true Church and yet alledged this Scripture against the Papists as against a false Church Are these contrary I pray you that they need be reconciled Then do you reconcile them for the Martyrs For sure I see no need of it Chap. 9. The third Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF the whose doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by Law in England be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that together with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Governement of the Church devised by man even the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holie ordinance and appointment of God himself to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie Worship and Governement aforesaid never was so but is mans device in religion even Antichrists that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ The Assumption is proved Gal 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that held not onelie such trueths of the Gospell as are in that book of Articles but more then those Yet if they should withall submit to Circumcision he saith they vvere abolished from Christ Christ vvould profit them nothing H. Iacob his first Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuely to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our Englâ—sh holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But a Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We ansvver We denie the Assumption Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If you obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ. That is in deed some amongst them as held Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutlie to salvation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3 4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Iustification vvas by the morall vvorkes of the lavv Novv the Churches of Galatia generallie vvere not such but held the saving faith sound doubtles though manie amngest them vvere tainred vvith that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that vvere crept in and too vvell interteined among them Hovvbeit vvith the Church Communion vvas kept and therefore so vvith vs you ought to deale If you say vve are vvorse Christians then those grosest Galatians It is vtterly false prove it if you can and it must dravve in Maister Cranmer c. vvith vs also If you say there are many amongst vs as bad or vvorse then those vvorst Galatians you may say it but prove it you cannot Also if it vvere so yet this disgraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath ben sayd of the Galatians Fr. Io. his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Reason YOur first answer is that you deny the Assumption Which in plaine termes is asmuch as if you had given the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.3.4 As in the proof of the Assumption was shewed before But for the more evidence of the truth I will set this downe in a Syllogisme thus If a Galatian submitting to Circumcision though he hold all the truths of the Gospell professed in EnglaÌ„d withall yet be notwithstanding abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter And yet the former you deny that is the Assumption Therefore you give the lie to the holy Ghost who affirmeth it Next you aunswer that the Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal 1.2 Therefore say you this Reason is nought But you may not thus runne away with the matter and deceive your self and your simple favourers The question is not Whether any Galatians vvere true Christians or any of their Assemblies true Churches For who ever doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truths of the Gospell novv professed in England and vvithall submitting to CircuÌ„cisioÌ„ vvere in that estate a true Christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those AsseÌ„blies then in that case were by Gods word to be deemed the true Churches of Christ The Apostle testifieth and saith No You say Yea. Now whether of you two it is meet wee beleeve let all men iudge But what is it then will you say that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true Churches Gal. 1.2 You shew the reason your selfe the light of the truth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed and of such onelie is the supposition made in the case aforesaid But the Churches of Galatia generally were not such but held the saving faith sound This also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ And therefore although there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes among them which is the †1 Cor. 11.19 Act. 20.30 lot and triall of the Church of God in all ages yet was there not cause to break Communion with those Assemblies but
the true faith of Christ these Scriptures prove Deut. 18.18.19 Heb. 3 1-6 Mat. 6.24 Luk. 10.27 Rom. 6.16 Col. 2.8.19.20.21.22.23 2 Thes 1.8 2.3.12 Ioh. 3.36 Ier. 4.18 That your Churches coÌ„stitution is such I have proved in another treatise both by the Scriptures and your owne writings viz In a treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England Pag 30-35 4. Your Church forbiddeth Mariage Meats Of which the Apostle saith expressely it is a departing from the faith of Christ and therefore Fundamentall See 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Col. 2 8-23 And before Pag. 137. 140. 5. Your Church persisteth and persecuteth such as refuse to worship the beast and his image or to receyve his marke in the forhead or hand That this bringeth damnation and is Fundamentall against the coÌ„mandements of God and faith of Iesus see Rev. 14.9.10.11.12 17 1-6 18.2.3.4.5 2. Thes 2 3-12 Exod. 20 4.5 That it is your case appeareth by your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people Courts Canons Dispensations Licences Suspensions Excommunications c. practised mainteined and yeelded vnto by your Church Ministers and people framed also according to the image and fashion of the Romish Apostasy Which your selves confesse to be that Beast spoken of in the Revelation 6. Together with these remember also the particulars which I noted before concerning this point Pag. 22. 31. 60. 63. 73. 94. 103. 114. 122. 126. 129. 133. In which places you may mynd divers the like with further proof thereof And so for the present let this suffice till we see what your next Reply can bring against it The Scriptures alledged against you what man of conscience knowing your estate durst ever open his mouth to say they were abused or misapplyed When the Corinthians did but neglect to excommunicate one wicked man from among them the Apostle fitlie alledged this saying A little leaven leaveneth the whole lumpe 1 Cor. 5.6 How is it then abused when we applie it to your estate which swarmeth with so manie knowen wicked men and yet hath not the power of Christ to cast out any one from among you That I say nothing of the other infinite corruptions among you towched before Pag. 63. c. But in deed if these Scriptures be in anie respect not fitlie applyed it is in this that your corruptioÌ„s are so many and so abominable as you had need of far sharper corasives and other more deadfull sentences of Scripture to be applyed to your estate Such as these be If any man worship the Beast and his image and receive his marke in his forhead or on his hand the same shall drink of the vvine of the vvrath of God c. Rev. 14.9.10.11 They that receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved God vvill send them strong delusion to beleeve lyes that they may be damned c. 2 Thes 2.10 11.12 He that obeyeth not the Sonne shall not see life but the vvrath of God abideth on him Ioh. 3.36 To them that are contentious and disobey the truth and obey vnrighteousnes shal be indignation and vvrath tribulation and anguish vpon the soule of every man that doth evill Rom. 2.8.9 Those myne ennemyes saith Christ vvhich vvould not that I should reigne over them bring hither and slay them before me Luk. 19.27 I protest to every man that heareth the vvords of this book if any man shall adde vnto these things God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are writteÌ„ in this book And if any man shall diminish of the words of the book of this prophecy God shall take away his part out of the book of life c. Rev. 22.18.19 And marke these clauses well If any man vvorship If any man adde If any man take away The soule of every man I protest to every man c. None is excepted Let everie man therefore mynd your estate betymes to deliver his soule from the fierce wrath of God Your estate I say wherein there are so manie things added and so manie things taken away from the ordinance of Christ And those also marks of the Beast even a multitude of abominations derived from Antichrist that sonne of perdition And will you yet perswade men that this is but some taint of evill in a Christian Can you put no difference between the sinnes and infirmityes of Christians walking in the faith and the impietyes of Antichrist and doctrines of Divels making departure from it Know you not that even †Luk. 22.24 Rom. 7.23 Gal. 2.11.12.13.14 Iam. 3 2. 1 Ioh. 1.8.10 the Apostles themselves were subiect to the former and yet were wholy free from the latter Or are you growen so presumptuous against the holy Ghost as what it directlie teacheth to be * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3 doctrines of Divels fornications and abominations of the vvhore of Babylon Apostasy of Antichrist the man of sinne that you dare say is but as the taint of evill in a ChristiaÌ„ Belike you would have vs see this very Prophecy fulfilled in your self viz that you are led vvith the Spirit of error and have your conscience seared vvith an hote iron 1 Tim. 4.1.2 Otherwise how could you thus lewdly speak lyes in hypocrisy if you were guided by the spirit of truth and made any conscience of that you say But yet further to shew that you have gotten the very habit of falshood you shame not to call that a vvicked sclaunder which all the world may see is most true For proof whereof compare but your Replyes here with the Iesuites Notes vpon 1 Tim. 4. Thus they write Rhem. Teâ—â— on 1 Tim. 4. first in their marginall notes We see plainly by these vvords such abstinence onely to be disallovved as condemneth the creatures of God to be naught by nature and creation Then in their Annotations following they labour to prove that here the Apostle speaketh of the Manichees Encratites Marcionists c. Towching whom they say They thought that Mariage vvas of Sathan and coÌ„demned divers creatures as things by nature and creation polluted and abominable And then they adde Lo these vvere the Hereticks and their heresyes vvhich S. Paul here prophecyeth of that forbid mariage and meats as you have heard c. These are their owne words And thus they labour in vaine as D. Fulk in his aunswer tels them to post over the crime from themselves to the old Hereticks vvho vvith as good reason might post it of from one to another the Manichees to the Tacianists and the Tacianists to the Manichees c. Now let the Reader well mynd your Replyes in this place and compare them with this dealing of the Papists and then let him judge how you are sclandered with a matter of truth when I sayd you runne into the Papists tents and fight vvith their vveapons to shift of the evidence of this Scripture against you by posting it over from your selves to the Hereticks of old Martion Tatianus c. But
And “ afterward vpon the 16. of the Revelation Ibid. vpon Rev. 16.12 expounding the drying vp of the waters of Euphrates to be this That the welthy Popes possessioÌ„s and pleasurs of the Clergy their false feates once known are and shal be cleerly taken away from them He saith thus In England by the ♣ Marke by this of vvhat time estate he speaketh even of such vvhen the Gospell vvas preched the Monasteries suppressed c. Gospell preaching have many of these waters bene dried vp in the suppression of the monasteries prioryes couents and Friers houses yet are not all things brought vnto Christs cleare institution A syncere Christian order cannot yet be seene there And a great cause why For all is not yet dried vp there The Bishops reigne still in asmuch vaine glorious pompe with as many Heathnish observations as ever they did as cruelly harted and as bloody mynded are they yet as ever they were afore No mischief vnsought to hold in the waters Marke how Winchester Durham Yorke London and Lincolne worke let vs also adde Canterburie with such other pleasant disposed Euphratines But be of good confort and pray in the meane tyme. For the holy Ghost promiseth heer that they shall wither away with all that the heaveÌ„ly Father hath not plaÌ„ted All which generatioÌ„ will the Lords breath coÌ„sume c. And to speake also of others in former tymes Iohn Wickleff held †Actes and Mon. 5. edit pag. 414. b. That Archbishops Bishops Archdeacons Officialls Deanes Canons c. be disciples of Antichrist William Swinderby said * Ibid. pag. 431. b. that what Pope Cardinal Bishop Prelate or Priest in manner of living or teaching or Lavves making contrary to Christs living his Lavves or any other ground put in ruling of the Church of christ but by Christ and his Lavves is very Antichrist adversarie to Iesus Christ and his Apostles Sir Iohn Oldcastle Lord Cobham witnessed ′ Ibid. â—ag 518. a. b. that the Bishops Priests Prelates and Monkes are the body of that great Antichrist And that the possessions and Lordships of the Clergy are the venime of Iudas shed into the Church Iohn Claidon burnt in Smithfield professed ‡ Ibid. pag. 588. b. that the Archbishops and Bishops speaking indifferently are the seats of the beast Antichrist when he sitteth in them and reigneth above other people in the darke Caves of errors and heresies And that the Bishops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the beast that is Antichrist Finally * In his treatises called The obedience of a Christian man The practise of prel William Tindall and “ In his Preface before his Antithesis betvveen Christ the pope Iohn Frith published That Archbishops Lordb. Archdeacons Deanes Officials Parsons Vicars and the rest of that sort are the disciples of Antichrist yea very Antichrists themselves These are the speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs in former ages wherevnto divers other such like might be added But these may suffice for the matter in hand Now compare therewith the publique profession and practise of England even as it is by law at this day and see whether your owne proofes be not so many witnesses against your selves But if it were so that the reformed Churches vve our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme gave allowance of your present estate and Church coÌ„stitution what would this help you when as the vvord of God condemneth you as we have shewed in the Reasons aforsaid and defence thereof Wherevnto if you will still iustifie your estate we require direct answer from point to point and that from the Scriptures which only can stablish the conscience Furthermore that the truth it self and your estate may better appeare what it is as also that you may not turne away or obscure the truth by your shiftes and evasions as your manner is I will here propound a few questions concerning the points now in controversie desiring your plaine and syncere answer therevnto by the word of God as you will answer to him at that day The questions are these Seven questions conteining the vvhole controversy betvveen vs yet vnansvvered 1. Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices with their Callings Workes and Maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guidance and service of his Church to the end of the world or no 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers be those offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as aforesaid Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops Lordbishops Suffragans Deanes Prebendaries Cannons Petticanons Priests Deacons Archdeacons Doctors of divinitie Batchelers of divinitie Chaplens or Housepriests Commissaries Officialls Proctors Apparitors Parsons Vicars Curates Vagrant or Mercenarie preachers Churchwardens Side men Clerkes Sextons and the rest now had in the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies be those Offices appoincted by Christ in his Testament as is aforsaid or no 3. Whether the Calling and entrance into these Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid their Administration and Maintenance now had and retained in England be the manner of calling administration maintenance which Christ hath appoincted for the offices of his Church above named or no 4. Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world and the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God and ioined togeather in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ And whether the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies of this Land be such or no 5. Whether the Sacraments being seales of righteousnes which is by faith may be administred to anie other but to the faithfull and their seed or in anie other ministery and manner then is appoincted by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they be not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies of England at this day 6. Whether the Book of Common prayer with the Feastes Fasts Holy dayes stinted prayers and Leiturgy prescribed therein and vsed in these Assemblies be the true worspip of God commaunded in his word or the devise and invention of man for Gods worship and service 7. Whether all people and Churches without exception be not bound in Religion only to receive and submit vnto that Ministery Worship order which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appoincted to his Church Or whether any may receive and ioine vnto another devised by man for the service of God And consequentlie whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery worship and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies can be assured by the word of God that they ioine to the former ordeined by Christ and not to the latter devised vy man even the man of sinne for the
Church in their Masse and Ministery as with yours in your worship and Hierarchy But further by this aunswer you yeeld that the Martyrs spake and wrote against your Church estate Which being so whether do you or we I pray you the better You in following the error of their practise Or we in receyving the truth of their testimonie And then if all that you say be graunted is it ought but this that you have the weaknes and sinne of their practise for a cloke of your standing in evill whereas we have the truth and soundnes of their iudgement for our walking in that which is good Now let others iudge which of vs follow them best and have the best interest in them And let it also be mynded that they then comming newlie out of the darknes of Poperie and being exercised also with other points of that religion neither did nor could so consider of this matter as synce their tyme in this clearer light it hath in our dayes ben discussed Lastlie if you will have this answer of yours go for currant then will I by like reason prove that you may also submit to the Popes authority and receive all the corruptions of the Romish Church And albeit that which I have alreadie said of the auncient Martyrs before be sufficient for proof hereof yet will I shew it you further thus The Protestants you know do vsually alledg against the Popes Antichristian authority and other corruptions of that Church the sayings of Bernard Beda c. Suppose now the Papists should answer as you do here This maketh stronger against you seing for all that yet they themselues refused not to yeeld to the Popes supremacy and to partake with this Church as being Christs c. What would you reply againe Either you must say as the truth is that this answer is wandring and frivolous or els you must needs confesse that by this reason of yours you may also receive the Pope and all that popery which is alreadie cast out of England and communicate therewith Which I pray God be not the issue of this your pleading for and partaking with the remnants of Antichrist yet held in your Church To that where I demaunded If it were so that the reformed Churches we our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme had given allowance of your present estate and Church-constitution what would this help you when as the word of God condemneth you c. You aunswer that those witnesses are sufficient for this that we hold a Paradox So the testimony of Man if you had it is of more force with you then the warrant of Gods word And whatsoever the Scripture saith yet to you it is a Paradox if it be gainsaid by the reformed Churches c. Blush for shame Mr Iacob and fear any more to publish such godles assertions and shameles Paradoxes All your clipping and perverting of my words will not help you Neyther your new supply of the whole Churches iudgement practise with all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300 or 1400 yeares Chrisostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom Austen Ambrose c. As if they had knowen and practised the Antichristian abominations now had in your Church But when you bring proof of this your lavish speach it will then be tyme ynough to aunswer it In the meane tyme heare what Mr Tindall that faithfull Martyr sayd speaking of the Prelates and Priests in his age for their so alledging the Fathers as you do As for the holy Doctors saith he as Augustine Hierome Cyprian Chrysostomus and Bede will they not heare If they wrote any thing negligently as they were men that draw they cleane contrary to their meaning and thereof triumphe they Those Doctors knew of none authority that one Bishop should have above another neyther thought or once dreamed that ever any such should be This is Mr Tindall his speach and observation Which you may mynd I note it now for this that you may see how your Forefathers alledged the Doctors and how it stands you vpon well to mynd what proof is brought from them whether it be for this point which here he nameth or for anie other corruptions of Antichrist retayned among you Some of which I have rehearsed * before in particular Pag. 63. c. for which I will expect your proof from such antiquity as you speak of ad Kalendas Graecas in deed never And yet I know that both 1400 yeares synce and before also they began to declyne very much But Antichrist notwithstanding came not of a long tyme after to that height and impiety wherein now he is to be seen and felt both in your Church and in your mother of Rome Note also that when all is said that can be in this matter it is but a Popish shift to fly from the Scriptures to the Fathers and an impious Paradox to exalt their sayings who are knowen to have erred in manie things above the word of God which alone is the rule of truth and can not lye at all Finally you say that to try you I propound a many of questions Yet they are but seven in all In deed I think it doth and will try both you and your fellow Priests to aunswer them Such superfluous stuffe they are And have you not read too Iob. 32.3 how ‡ Iobs frends condemned him and yet could fynd no answer Apply it to your selves and your dealing with vs. But you say you would first have vs cleare this present question and our reasons thereabout Well besides that is already done the deciding of these few questions will fully and plainly do it Let others iudge if it would not And mynd you then what you have answered To shut vp all you tell vs aforehand you have no leysure to meddle further Very like so You have leysure ynough to write book after book to no purpose yet you have not so much as to aunswer a few short questions which may end all the controversie between vs. He that can not see how you would shift of the matter and yet labour to withold the truth in vnrighteousnes what doth he see The Lord open your eyes Mr Iacob that your self may see and mynd it As for others that be seduced by you and the rest of your Prophets teaching lyes let them in tyme afore it be to late apply vnto you and themselves in such estate that which is written The leaders of the people cause them to erre and they that are led by them are devoured Esa 9.16 Therefore also let them all even whosoever feare God and will be assured of his mercy give no rest to their soules vntill with the Prophet they can say in truth of heart and shew it forth in their practise My portion O Lord I have said to keep thy words I have considered my wayes turned my feet into thy testimonyes I made hast delayed not to keep thy commaundements I have refrayned my feet from every evill way
being observed and Mr Iacob desired to resolve them in his next I will now proceed to shew the weaknes and insufficiency of his present pretended Defence Where for more evidence of the truth I will first set downe the Reasons heretofore alledged against his Cōparisō and then aunswer his cavils now brought against them Chap 2. The first Reason against Mr Iacobs Comparison as it was first propounded Fran. Iohnson INfidels Idolaters prophane and godles persons may marry togeather with consent and choise of each other notwithstanding their prophanenes And their marriage is therein lawfull But it standeth not so with choise of Ministers in the Church For prophane godles persons such as these Assemblies consist of being never rightlie gathered togeather according to Gods ordinance remaining in subiection and bondage to their false Antichristian Offices and Courts consisting of all sorts of people c. are not capable of chusing and ioyning to a true Minister in this estate as Infidels and such like may marry in their estate Therefore the comparison holdeth not neyther is such choise of a Minister by such people lawfull H. Iacob his Reply THe strength of this Reason standeth in these last words But these Assemblies consist of such people 1. prophane godles persons 2. neuer rightly gathered together according to Gods ordinance 3. remayning in subiection and bondage to their false and Antichristian officers courts Ergo c. These three accusations availe nothing at all The first Accusation is from our question Accusatiō 1. for we speake of a Christian people but you of assemblies consisting of prophane and godles persons If you say our assemblies all wholy are such That is false If you say some are Of them we speake not If you say in all every one of our assemblies there are some yea many open prophane and godles persons 1. It is too bold a saying and without knowledge to speak so of all 2. If it were true yet it were false to say our assemblies consist of such or to thinke that whole companies of Christians by such commixtures are made vnholy prophane and godles which is contrary to these scriptures Mat. 23.2.3 Luke 2.21.22 1.6 Act. 21.23.26 1 Sam. 2.17 cap. 1. vers 3.9 Rev. 2.20.21 3.1.4 1 Cor. 3.3 Gal. 3.1.2 4.11.16 5.4.9 The second Accusation that our assemblies were neuer rightly gathered togeather at the first according to Gods ordinance I deny it Accusatiō 2 especially towching many famous Congregations in the Land where the GOSpell was not vnknowen before the Queenes commaundement came to vrge them to receive this doctrine And if the maner of receiving it then in those hard and doubtfull tymes and hazardous beginnings were not so perfect nor so exact as should haue ben yet we may see by the example of “ 2 Chro. 30.17.18 19.20 Hezechias and * 2 Chr. 33.15.16.17 Manasses and †Zepha 1.4.5 3.1 Ier. 3.6 c. 4.1 c. 5.1 c. Iosias reformations That God imputeth it not to such godly and zealous restorers the pillers and ground of the trueth in those dayes If you say the vntaught people then suddenly receiving the Gospell by cōmandement not by hearing could not beleeve at the first though they professed and therefore at the first were no true Christians nor Churches I aunswer 1. Though many received the Gospell for the commandements sake yet who can say That now they all generally wanted all knowledge and all faith The word then having ben in many places taught very many bookes scattered much conference daily consultations and disputations vsed and the blood of the Martyrs having preached so loud and so lately before 2. It was not so sudden There was †From Nouember the 17. till Midsomer following more then halfe a yeare for the people to heare learne and consider before the commandement came So that it can not be counted meer force and compulsion that at the beginning of our Queenes reigne brought vs to the truth 3. I would know You condemne not I hope all reformation commanded and compelled by the Magistrate 2 Chron. 34.32.33 33.16 15.13 .. Seeing therefore the assemblies thus openly and aduisedly submitted to the proclaimed truth who seeth not but they cōfessed therein their former errors and professed their present faith and vndertooke a new life from that which before they led though happely not so formallie nor so perfectlie as were to have ben wished But they received all togeather Papists Atheistes ignorant men and all dissolute livers Obiection into one communion and fellowship Indeed all who after this aduizement and notice taken submitted to and receyved this doctrine Answer these were all receyued in And therefore no open professed Papistes Athistes nor other Heretikes As for ignorant men it is not possible but many will scape among the rest in so great so generall reformation of a publike state And so questionles it was in Hezechias Manasses Iosias reformation 2. Chron. which we noted before The notorious dissolute wicked some were reclaimed all vndertook another profession and a new appearance of Christianitie And no doubt the like is to be thought of these as before I obserued touching the ignorant men Now all this was done not intollerablie doubtlesse though I graunt weakly and corruptly very like euen to your owne receiuing in to your Church at this time nay more tollerable and more lawfull then yours who to furnish onely one congregation have received many * This particular Mr Iacob hath not printed but it was in his written copy which I aunswered bankrupts knowen bad men and very ignorant yea and still retaine men full of contention and bitter strife 1 Cor. 3..3 In a word this I answer That which disanulleth not a Church gathered and settled That disanulleth it not in the gathering and beginning But such mixtures do not disanull a Church gathered and settled as appeareth above in the scriptures quoted against the First Accusation Mat. 23. Luke 2 c. Therefore such mixtures did not disanull our Churches then in their beginning The Third Accusation is Our Assemblies remayne in obedience to the false Antichristian Officers Accusatiō 3. c. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversitie of sinnes All are not of like detestation before God not of like consequence against vs. I say not that any sinnes are veniall but I say all sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ nor deprive vs of the glory of God Now this sinne of outward Church orders is not of the most heynous nor extreamest disobedience There are sinnes against the †1 Cor. 15 2.3.4 Rom. 1.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11.12.13.14 foundation and there are sinnes that stande with the foundation ibid. wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved Such were the sinnes of the Iewish Church and estate in Christs
A treatise of the Ministery of Engl. in answer to M. A. H. whether the better sort among you do by such commixture become godles persons like the rest but whether your Assemblies in such commixture can be deemed true constituted Churches of Christ The Scriptures you alledge are therefore misalledged and fit not your purpose at all Yea they are direct against you as I have ◠els where proved at large Now note but these things brieflie In Mat. 23.2.3 Christ speaketh of such as sate in Moses chayre that is in the offices and functions which God by Moses had ordeyned Deut. 33.8.10 Neh. 9.4 with Ioh. 1.19.24 Now what is this to your false Ministerie which God never appointed The same is to be mynded in those other Scriptures of 1 Sam. 1.3.9 2.17 In Luk. 1.6 2.21.22 mention is made of Gods ordinances and offices then obserued after the Law of Moses vvithout reproof Is not this then directlie against your Antichristian ordinances and offices which are not according to the Law of God but after the Apostasy of Antichrist and therefore all the observers of them to be reproved In Act. 21.23.26 we read that the Legall ordinances were for a tyme permitted to the Iewes being zealous of the Law and so observed of the Apostle himself being also a Iew. Which was the honour of their buriall But what proportion is there between those ordinances of God and the enormities of Antichrist Nay if we may not now keep those ceremonyes of Moses once Gods commaundements how far ought we to be from keeping the abominations of Antichrist by God most straitlie forbidden Gal. 5.2 vvith Rev. 14.9.10 18.4 In Rev. 2.20.21 3.1.4 1 Cor. 3.3 Gal. 3.1.2 4.11.16 5.4.9 the Scripture speaketh of true Churches and people set in the way and order of Christ What is this to your Assemblies and people standing in the apostasy of Antichrist But you will say these Scriptures shew in these Churches some corrupt men opinions and actions What then 1. This was not the estate of those Churches but the personall aberratiōs of some therein 2. Though true Churches planted in the order of Christ be subiect to corruption yet this doth not iustifie anie false Churches in Antichristian constitution Though Iudah being the true Church of God had her enormities yet Israel in apostasy was no wife but an harlot Hos 2.2 4.15 vvith 2 Chrō 15.17 If you mynd not this difference you may plead for Rome at this day and all the false Churches in the world as you do for your owne 3. Although bad men vnder a show of holines creep into the Church till afterward in tyme they be descryed yea although many hypocrites both enter and continew in the true Church yet this nothing approveth the confusion of such Assemblies as are cages of every vncleane and hatefull bird even of knowen wicked persons Atheists Persecuters Rev. 18.2 Whoremōgers Drunkards Vsurers Idolaters c. 4. When anie such are espyed in the true Church there is Christs power to cast them out if they repent not Mat. 18.17 1 Cor. 5.4.5.11.12.13 But such being cōmon and notorious in your and the like Churches yea and still remaining vnrepentant yet you have not the power of Christ to remove them but all the ecclesiasticall power and iurisdiction among you is in the Prelates and their Officers which is meerlie Antichristian 5. Even in true Churches when such persons and corruptions are not redressed or removed they do in tyme leaven the whole lumpe and Christ in iustice removeth his Candelstick and taketh his kingdome away from among them See it in such Churches as are spoken of in these Scriptures here noted by your self Mat. 21.42 43. Rev. 2.5.16.22.23 1 Cor. 5.6 Gal. 5.9 And if iudgement begin at the house of Christ what shal be the end of the Synagogues of Antichrist These things I thought brieflie to note partlie to shew that these Scriptures approve not your estate partlie that the Reader may alway mynd to put difference between true Churches and yours with all other false ones whatsoever And let it be noted withall how you seek out the verie Scribes and Pharisees with the corruptest tymes and people by them to colour your vngodlie estate if possiblie you could Whereas the true feare of God would teach you to make choise of the Prophets and Apostles with the purest tymes and people for examples to walk in their steps But for the further handling of these things I refer you to other treatises where they are more fullie spoken of The answer to Mr A.H. c. Now I will annexe for more clearing of this question a brief description of a true visible Church which hath power frō Christ to chuse to it self such Officers as he hath ordeined in his word Thus therefore I describe it A true visible Church of Christ is * a company of faithfull people †by the word of God called out separated from the world the false wayes thereof ′ gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell “ by a voluntary profession of the faith obedience of Christ * Mat. 18.17.20 Ephes 1.1 Act. 1.15 Ezech. 36.38 †Ioh. 15.19 17.14.16 Lev. 20.26 Act. 2.39.40 19.9 Rom. 1.7 2 Cor. 6.17 Rev. 18.4 “ Mat. 18.20 Phil. 1.5 Act. 1.15 2.41.47 17.4 Esa 60.4 “ Esa 44.5 2 Cor. 9.13 Act. 2.41 Psal 110.3 Rom. 1.8 16.19 This I take to be a true description If it be not shew the errour by the Scriptures If it be compare herewith your Cathedrall and Parish Assemblies and if you can prove them or anie of them even the best among you to be such And hitherto of the first of the particulars before mentioned For the second it is needfull that you both name those many famous cōgregations you speak of and that you shew how they were rightlie gathered and ioined together according to Gods ordinance Otherwise who can know whereof you speak or what to think in particular cōcerning them If by Congregations where the Gospell was not vnknowen before the Queens cōmādement came to vrge them you meane the persecuted Churches that were in Q. Maryes tyme this helpeth not your cause but maketh against it directlie For they were then separated from the rest of the Land and voluntarily submitted to the Gospell of Christ and enioyed th◠true and lawfull offices of Pastors Elders Deacons neyther stood in subiection to the Antichristian Prelacy and other Clergy of the Land but renounced and forsook it None of all your Assemblies were ever such eyther at the beginning of her Maiestyes raigne or at anie tyme synce If you obiect that even they of that persecuted Church when this Queen came submitted to the Prelacy and Clergy aforsaid I deny it not But note withall that such as did so made thereby defection from the way of Christ wherein they were before And the rest that would not so do were eyther cast
AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministery of England By Francis Iohnson an exile of IESVS CHRIST Though myne Adversary write a Book against me would I not beare it vpon my shoulder would I not bynde it for crovvnes vnto me Iob. 31.35.36 Printed in the Yeare of our Lord. 1600. The Title and inscription of Mr Iacobs book because there is often relation vnto it hereafter both in the Preface and in the Book it selff therefore I thought good here to insert it at first Thus it was word for word as followeth A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND Ministery of England Written in two Treatises against the Reasons and obiections of Mr Francis Iohnson and others of the separation commonly called Brownists Published especially for the benefit of those in these parts of the lovv Countries MIDDELBVRGH By Richard Schilders Printer to the States of Zealand 1599. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from our Lord Iesus Christ THere came out of late good Reader two books from one Mayster Henry Iacob a Priest of the Orders of the Prelates The first was agaynst his Lord Mr D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester concerning Christs suffrings and descending into Hell The latter agaynst me by name and others like mynded tovvching the Church and Ministery of England Now although the Prelates could not well be offended at him for publishing the former agaynst the doctrine of theyr Church senig * In K. Edvv tyme about 50. Yeares synce long before him Mr Carlill a learned man had both publikly disputed in Cambridge and printed a book agaynst that error of Christs descension and that with great approbation of the most godly and learned at that tyme Yet belike fearing the worst and knowing the hatred of the Prelates how deadly it is he did presently after send forth his other book in defence of the Churches and Ministery of England So as whatsoever displeasure his Lords the Prelates conceyved agaynst him for the former there was now some hope that they might sooner be appeased vpon view of the latter Or howsoever it should fall out yet what like lyer way could he take to make all sure on his side then by the first book to get the forward Preachers and professors to take his part agaynst the Prelates and by the other to have both them and the Prelates themselves to stand with him agaynst vs Yet I heare some of his owne coat give out that he hath dealt very simply in publishing so weak and raw a Treatise against vs. And true it is in deed that his Treatise is such In the publishing whereof no wisedome hath he shewed at all vnles it be in this that he hath thus let all the world see that against the errors of the Church of England there is plenty of Scripture to be had and vrged but not a jote to be found for defence of theyr VVorship Ministery constitution c. For if you mynd it †Yet I deny not but he hath scattered some errors also in that book in his book against Bilson about the question of Christs suffrings and descending into Hell you shall see proof after proof readily brought from the word of God And on the contrary in his book against vs not onely no such proof but in stead thereof eyther his owne assertions and comparisons obtruded vnto vs as oracles or the Names of Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley and other dead men opposed to the word of the living God or putting over his cause to the State to be defended himself being not able to speak one poore word in defence thereof c. Such is his latter book and such are the grounds of it A very great and straunge difference between two books set out by one and the same man the one straight after the other and both of them in matter of Religion If I had first published these Replyes and Aunswers which passed between vs no doubt but many would have had a prejudice thereof and all would have thought I had done it purposely to shew the weaknes of that cause and falsehood of that Ministery c. But now when he a member of that Church yea a Minister of it even a Priest of the Prelates creation hath first published them albeit the same thing be done yet it is both without all prejudice and pretended by him for defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Be it that he hath not done it so well as many would have it yet it is the best he could And what if he thought by this meanes eyther to stirre vp some others more able herevnto or at least to shew his owne good will Doubtles where there is want of ability a mans good will is to be accepted And why should any then misinterpret so good a meaning If any of the Prelates or others of that Church like it not they may learne by his example iff not to lay theyr hand on theyr mouth yet to try if they can plead the cause any better For worse I suppose they would be ashamed to do it I had thought in this case I should never have seen any more absurd writing then Mr Giffards and Bredvvels But now to Mr Iacob may they well give place And iff any can be found of all the Priests in England more sencelesse then these let such for theyr worthynes as standerd bearers be Prelates of theyr chiefest Seas And as for Mr Iacob seing he hath done his best let all men be content to beare with his simplicity who otherwise might well note his folly for vndertaking ius how the defence of that which yet in deed he leaveth altogether naked and helples By the title of his book it seemeth he thought to carry away the simple Reader who eyther could not or would not mynd what should follow after it In the book it self he thinketh his plea to be very good if he can say for the Ministery and other abominations of theyr Church They are errors but not fundamentall sinnes against the Second commandement but not vtterly abolishing from Christ c. And this is the summe of his whole book A plea which he counteth vnaunswerable Yet in deed no other but such as openeth a wide doore for all maner errors and sinnes to be receyved and nourished amonge them which themselves shall presume not to be fundamentall c. So that now theyr Church is ready when they please to entertayne agayne the offices of Abbats Monks Fryers Nonnes Cardinals c. the doctrines and practise of Auricular confession Prayer in an vnknovven toungue Prayer for the dead Seven Sacraments Holy vvater holy ashes holy palmes holy bread Creame spittle oyle and salt in Baptisme Consubstantiation Deniall of the cup to the lay people Denyall off vvarres and Magistracy in Christians Denyall of Mariage in Ministers c. For these and many mo errors of the Papists Lutherans Anabaptists it is like they hold not to be fundamentall And therefore
although theyr Church receyve them yet is Mr Iacobs defence as sound for them then as it is now Neyther may any for these or the like separate from theyr Church worship or Ministery if you will beleev him Yet note that for proof of this assertion you must let them take day For as yet they can shew you none And what now if any of the errors which the Church of England at this day retayneth be fundamentall What will Mr Iacob say to that Then agayne he is at a flat Non plus and all his book is not worth a rush save that it yeelds vs the cause and graunts theyr Church to be a false Church aÌ„d theyr people to be no true ChristiaÌ„s in that estate For this therefore see what is sayd in the Treatise hereafter following Pag. 22. 114. 147. 148. What also if D. Bilson should aunswer Mr Iacob for that poynt of Christs descension into Hell as he aunswereth vs for theyr Church corruptions that though it be an error yet it is not fundamentall yea and that they in K. Edvvards dayes held it Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Would Mr Iacob take this of his word or think it a sufficient warant for the holding thereoff or bynd others to be likewise mynded c. But to let this passe let Mr Iacob mynd well the estate and practise of theyr Church but in such particulars as I have named hereafter Pag. 63. 64. 65. and then let him aunswer as before God Are they lawfull or vnlawfull Are they of Christ or Antichrist Of God or the Divell Lead they to heaven or hell May they be found in the Word and Churches of God or in the Popes Churches Canons Portuis Pontificall May they any maner way be approved and communicated withall or are they not wholy and with detestation to be refused and abhorred For aunswer hereof I will wayte till Mr Iacob reply agayne And in the meane tyme I will now aunswer what he and his Prefacemaker have already published Where first I desier the Reader in both of them and in Bridges Bancroft Bilson Hooker Sutcliff and all such writers of that Church to mynd these three things 1. That all theyr reasoning and perswasions are no other but such as may lead men eyther backe agayne to Popery or the ready way to Atheisme or at least to receyve whatsoever religion the Prince pleaseth so themselues account it not to be fundamentall Thus are they all blynd guydes Thus do they all teach to continew in sinne Thus do they shut vp the kingdome of heaven before men neyther entring in themselues nor suffring them that would enter to come in 2. That they do even set themselues to carpe at the truth it self and at the mayntenance and practise thereoff To which end they vse they care not what objections and abuse they care not whom 3. That they never do so much as offer to bring proof from the Scripture for theyr estate and practise See the particulars afterward rehearsed Pag. 63. 64. 65. And mynd iff there be any of them all that in any book they have written have brought warrant for them from the word of God Onely D. VVhitgift made an assay for some of them but he was so taken downe by Mr Cartvvright as he was glad to lay downe the bucklers which synce that tyme neyther himselff nor any other durst take vp And now Sutcliffe himselff can tell them iff Mr Cartwright have the better hand of D. Whitgift that then the Church of England is no true Church of Christ and that there is iust cause to departe and separate from it Sut. Engl. b. Pag. 228. These things noted I do now come to Mr Iacobs book and first to the Preface which his fellow and frend at a need hath prefixed before it Where I will for more evidence of the truth and stopping of theyr mouths first set downe his owne words as I do also Mr Iacobs afterward in the book it self and then make aunswer vnto them He that made or wrote the Preface subscribeth his Name thus D. B. And thus he beginneth it The Publisher to the Christian Reader Section 1. ABout Three Yeeres since Maister Iacob having some speach vvith certen of the separation before mentioned concerning their peremptory vtter separation from the Churches of England vvas requested by them briefly to sett dovvn in vvriting his Reason for defence of the said Churches And they vvould either yeild vnto his proofes or procure an ansvver vnto the same VVherevppon the Argument follovving this Preface vvas set dovvne in vvriting by maister Iacob vvhich the said parties did send to Maister Fr. Iohnson being then prisoner in the Clinke in Southvvark vvho made an ansvver vnto the same conteyning 3. Exceptions and 9. Reasons in denyall of the Assumption vvherevnto Maister Iacob Replyed Aftervvard Maister Iohnson defended his sayd Exceptions and Reasons And finally Maister Iacob Replyed againe As by the particulars themselves appeareth The Aunswer These two letters Geuev Scot. Allobrog Disc Pag. 7. D. B. I fynd to be set for Doctor Bancroft now Prelate of London in a * shameles book of his not long synce sparsed abroad In which respect as also considering many as godles things here agayne published albeit some might think it were therefore to be ascriâ—ed vnto him yet for other causes partly appearing in the book partly knowen of the man I thinck this Preface was not made by him but rather by another †Daniel Buck D. B. a Scrivener of London a man that hath turned his coat and forsaken the truth as often as †Doct. Pernâ— D. P. the old turne coat did if not also oftner He it was that by letters desired of me to aunswer Mr Iacobs Argument as here is said being himself at that tyme separated from the false worship and Ministery of England to which vomit he is now againe returned wallowing in that â—â—yer from which then he was washed Then also he could say himself thought Mr. Iacobs Argument was frivolous and of no waight and that his desier with some others was to have it answered for the stopping of Mr Iacobs mouth who thought it vnaunswerable Herevpon I made answer vnto it and as there was occasion by Mr Iacobs doubled Replyes have aunswered agayne and agayne I have also for sundry causes consulted with others therein and namely with Mr Henry Ainsvvorth Teacher of our Church my work-fellow to the kingdome of God approved in Christ At London 1593. and Mr Daniel Studley another off our Elders who hath given vp his life for the Name of our Lord Iesus Christ being first * adâ—udged to death afterward exiled c. And now vnto thee good Christian Reader I exhibit the whole Treatise conteyning beside that which was published before my aunswer also to Mr Iacobs second and last Reply that thou mayest try the matter by the word off God and as it agreeth therewith so to receyve it and no
any thing more intolerable yea that the retayning of these is not a corruption of Christianity but a manifest defection from Christ Now if fower or five of theyr corruptions yea if two of them be a manifest departing from the faith of Christ what may we think of theyr whole Hierarchy and multitude of Antichristian abominations retayned among them besides Yet this mans conscience is so feared as he feareth not to say though they were thrice as many as they are yet they are not to the purpose for which they are vrged that is to convince the Antichristian constitution of theyr Church and to warrant separation therefrom Which is as much as if he should say more plainely Let the Apostels say of it what they will and let Christ himself commaund vs never so straitly to separate from such and to towch no vncleane thing at all 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 18.4 2 Cor. 6.17 Yet it is to no purpose if D. B. and Mr Iacob with theyr consorts agree otherwise The Anabaptisticall perfection then whereof he dreameth he may well apply to himself and his fellowes who will be perfit and holy in theyr way if theyr owne faucyes perswade them so albeit they stand in never so many knowen errors and those also of Antichrist yea and peremptorily condemne all such as partake not in theyr sinnes but separate from theyr Antichristian worship and Ministery as Christ hath commaunded The way aÌ„d coÌ„stitutioÌ„ of our Church is according to the TestameÌ„t of Christ Weakly in deed aÌ„d with much imperfectioÌ„ do we walk therein by reasoÌ„ of sinne that doth so compasse aÌ„d cleave fast vnto vs. Neyther was there ever in the world any Churches or Christians whose case was not such Nor can we ever look for other vpon the earth Even the Prophets and Apostles have thus acknowledged of themselves Esa 64.6 9. Psal 19.12.13 and 103.10 Iob. 9.30.31 Hab. 3.1 Rom. 7.14 c. 1 Cor. 13.9.12 Heb. 12 1. Iam. 3.2 1 Pet. 4.17.18 1 Ioh. 1.8.9.10 and 2.1.2 But should we therefore be perswaded to abide in knowen errors or to iustify such Churches as stand in the way and constitution of Antichrist Common sence might teach to reason otherwise and to discerne between things that differ so much as these doe one from another For our difference of judgement in some things if it were as he saith yet it would nothing availe them The * Act. 11. 15. and 21. Chap. Rom. 14. ch 1 Cor. 8. and 10. chap. Phil. 3.15.16 Christians in the Primitive Churches differed in iudgement amoÌ„g themselves in divers waighty things some concerning Iudaisme some concerning Paganisme c. And synce that tyme “ See the Acts and Mounuents c. the Martyrs in Queen Maryes dayes and former ages did in sundry things and those of great moment and concerning Antichrists religion differ in judgement one from another Should these therefore have approved and taken part with the Iewish Heathnish or Popish Churches in theyr other errors wherein they did joyntly see and witnesse the truth against them Or will he say there was therefore no equity in theyr dealing because they did it not Or that they were so vvholy given and bent theyr vvits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never lookt into theyr ovvne estate or applyed the Scriptures to themselues Yet thus absurdly and vnconscionably doth this man reason against vs. Off which more hereafter Now for the particulars here mentioned the first which is of swearing by a book is an impudent vntruth so far as ever I knew or heard of any among vs. Not onely some but all of vs hold it simply vnlawfull to sweare by a book It is * Deut. 6.13 the Name of the Lord onely by which all men ought to sweare Thus we do all professe and practise In deed about the ceremony of laying the hand vpon the book thereby to signify that we do take the oath there hath ben question some thinking that it might be so done as †Gen. 24.2.3.9 Abrahams servant when he took an oath put his hand vnder his Maisters thigh and persware vnto him onely by the Lord God of heaven and earth or as Abraham did himself lift vp his hand to the Lord when he sware or vowed vnto him as we read Gen. 14.22 Others thinking that because it hath ben superstitiously abused and still may nourish in the ignorant the error of swearing by the book that therefore it should not be done 1. Thes 5.22 And notwithstanding this difference yet all of vs for the reasons last alleadged think it better to be left then retayned still and some other ceremony free from such pollution and daunger as the lifting vp of the hand to heaven or such like to be vsed instead thereof For probates of vvils taking of administration suing c. some it may be think that the things themselves being in theyr nature meerly Civill and the ordering of them being put over to the Doctors and Professors of the Civill Law they might thus far be admitted And this so much the rather because if all the Popish Hierarchy and Canons were quite abolished out of the Land as they ought to be Yet an order for these things notwithstanding were still to be had and such as are skilfull in the Civill Law might be employed thereyn aswell as any other of the Common wealth being by the Prince and Magistraeâ—s appoynted therevnto Others thinking that inasmuch as these causes Courts aÌ„d Officers are now in theyr estate committed to the Prelates whose functions are meerly Antichristian that therefore they should not be admitted at all Yet here agayne all of vs agree in this that the whole Hierarchy with whatsoever belongeth thereto is wholy to be abandoned and refused and no spirituall communion to be had therewith at all For shutting vp of shops on Holy dayes and Festivall dayes c. as he doth Popishly terme them What if some think that our bodyes goods and lands being subiect in the Lord as they ought to the Magistrates that therefore they may at theyr appointment then shift by theyr shops as they do on the Queens day or such like solemnityes And others think that forasmuch as theyr Holydayes both are popish dayes and popishly vsed for theyr divine worship that therefore they should not shut vp theyr shops on these dayes more then any other Yet all agree in this that these dayes though the Prince commaund it never so straily are no more to be set apart or vsed for publik worship then any other of the sir week-dayes Also that they need not leave theyr work any more on those dayes then any other whatsoever These are the particulars he nameth If he could have mentioned any other of greater moment you may be sure they should not have ben omitted Let him know then that we â—o and ought
annexe the testimony of one of the Martyrs a good while synce when Antichrist as yet was but a litle discovered in respect as synce that tyme he hath ben One of the Articles against Iohn Claydon who was burned at London in Smithfield in the yeare 1415 was this That the Bisshops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the Beast that is Antichrist Where marke that albeit a man preach the word of God yet he sayth the Bishops licence so to do is the Beasts marke Act. and Monum edit 5. Pag. 588. b. Thus much I thought to write here also concerning this poynt Yet if D. B. or Mr Iacob for him who do both of them receyve and carry daily the Beasts marks in theyr foreheads and hands and therefore may well have sure knowledge thereof can shew them any better from the word of God I shall willingly heare it And seing that here he wisheth we knew the marks of the Beast a litle better we do also entreat him if his leasure and ability will serve to make them a litle better knowen vnto vs. But I doubt it will now be found in him and the rest of them at this day as Mr Ridley that faithfull Martyr found and complayned in his tyme saying I feare me nay it is certayne the World that wanteth the light of the Spirit of God for the world is not able to receyve him sayth Iohn neyther doth nor shall know the Beast nor his marks though he rage cruelly and live never so beastly and though his marked men be in number like the sand of the sea Act. and Mon. 5. edit Pag. 1618. b. To conclude this matter then may I not well returne theyr ovvne speach vpon themselves and say Surely they are for the most part so wholy given and bend their wits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never look into their owne estate or apply the Scriptures to themselues But let them look vnto it it will be theyr decay in the end That all errors are alike is a fancy of his owne We did neuer imagine it We know and professe otherwise To give but one instance The Iewes the Arrians the Papists the Mungrell-protestants the Lutherans the Anabaptists c. do all of them at this day erre very greatly concerning the Person or Office of Iesus Christ who is “ 1 Cor. 3.11 the onely foundation of the Church Yet we know theyr errors are not all alike Some are greater some lesser some in one poynt some in another But this we say that all theyr errors are such as every faithfull Christian ought to eschew them and to witnes the contrary truth against them vnto death as they will aunswer to God at that day His obiection likewise of all the commaundements of God to be obeyed alike c. is of his owne coyning I do not think that ever he heard it of any of vs or that he did ever see it in any of our writings If he did he may shew it We know that Christ speaking of the dutyes of the first Table sayth This is first and the great commaundement Mat. 22.39 And that therefore the duâ—â—es of the second table must alway give place to the first as to the greater Math. 10.37.39 Luk. 14.26 Act. 20.24 Except when the mercy commaunded in the second is to be preferred before the ceremonyes required in the first and such like Hos 6.6 vvith Mat. 12 1-7 Luk. 13.14.17 We acknowledge also there is difference in the commaundements of the first Table when they are compared together one with another And in the commaundements likewise of the Second And consequently therefore in the dutyes required in both for our obedience These things are so well knowen as they may learne them of very children Note withall that we are bound to keep not onely the greatest of the commaundements of God but even the very least notwithstanding any perswasion prohibition or persecution to the contrary because they are all from one and the same God with commaundement to obey them all and every one and that vnder payne of damnation Therefore also Christ sayd The Second is like to the first and great commaundement Math. 22.39 Now iff any in this sence do say that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike it may well be vnderstood according to that saying of our Lord Iesus before alledged Mat. 22.38.39.40 Otherwise there is difference to be put as is aforesaid in the dutyes both of the two Tables themselves and of the severall commaundements of each of them His inserting of these two words the Scriptures and fundamentall when he saith that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike I will not now further stand vpon It seemeth he did it for some evasion Which I doubt not but his next Reply if he be not already at a Non plus will make more manifest Till then let this suffice which hath ben said The place of 1 Cor. 3.12.15 both he and Mr Iacob do misvnderstand and misalledge The Apostel speaketh not there of any false doctrine or errors built vppon the foundation but of the entising speach of mans wisdome and vayne eloquence off words By which it came to passe that although they taught nothing but the truth and so buylt vpon the foundation Iesus Christ yet they did it vnworthily and not as became the simplicity of the Gospell of Christ That this is the true and playne meaning of the Apostles speach appeareth thus 1 Cor. 2. 3 chap. 1. First by comparing together the second and third chapters of this Epistle Where all may see that he speaketh not a worde of any error or vntruth that was taught but of the simplicity on the one hand and of the ostentation of speach and humane wisdome on the other which was vsed by the Teachers of Corinth in theyr building vpon the foundation that is in theyr teaching of the truth of Iesus Christ 2. Secondly for that the very terme * 1 Cor. 3.10 here vsed by the Apostle concerneth directly the maner of teaching or building vpon the foundation not the matter taught or built vpon it His words are these Let euery man take heed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv he buildeth vpon it The word which he vseth here is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv for the manner not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vvhat for the matter 3. Thirdly because for the matter taught the Apostle doth els where give another rule concerning all teachers of errors and false doctrine though they should be Angels from heaven viz. to give them no countenance at all neyther to have any communion with them but to separate from them and hold them accursed 1 Tim. 6 3.4.5 Gal. 1.8.9 Rom. 16.17.18 2 Ioh ver 10.11 Rev. 22.18.19
Note also that of the teachers spoken of to the Corinthians the Apostle saith themselues shal be saved 1 Cor. 3.15 albeit theyr vvork of affected eloquence do burne and vanish away as smoke Whereas contrarily of the teachers of erroneous doctrine he saith They haue not God neither serve the Lord Iesus but are accursed For proof whereof see the Scriptures here alleadged before 4. Finally because the Apostle writing els where to the same purpose and to the same Church of Corinth doth himself playnely declare that this is his meaning As namely in 1. Cor. 1.12.13.17.19.20.21 2 Cor. 2.17 4.2 11.3.4.5 6 For which cause it may well be thought that the Spirit of God in this place did in great wisdome and of purpose compare theyr entising speach and vayne eloquence to vvood hay and stubble which are combustible aÌ„d cannot abide the tryall of fier that whereas they did much glory in this course they might euen by this resemblance now see and consider the vanity thereof and how vnworthy it was to be suted with the foundation which is Iesus Christ As on the contrary he resembleth the teaching of the Gospell in simplicity and playne evidence of the Spirit to gold and silver which will abide the fier and to precious stones which are of great valew to teach them by this comparison that albeit such maner of teaching seemed base in outward shâ—â—â— and were of small account with men yet it is in deed precious such as will endure the tryall and is accepted with God as being the right handling of the word and sutable with the foundation Iesus Christ Thus much I thought to write here for the clearing of the true sence and meaning of this Scripture Which by reason of misunderstanding is perverted not onely by the Papists to mainteyne theyr feyned Purgatory but by many Protestants also partly to vphold such errors annd doctrines as they hold against the word of God partly to defend theyr estate notwithstanding that such errors and false doctrines be retayned among theÌ„ Now by this which hath ben said the Reader may see both how ignorantly this Scripture is misapplyed by Mr Iacob and his Scribe and that being disappoynted hereof they have not so much as the apperance of any one Scripture to alledge in defence of theyr Church-estate But it comes well to passe as * Beza in 1 Cor. 3.10 one sayth of Purgatory-fyer that theyr Church constitution is built of stubble wood and hay so as the flame of God being now kindled agayne there is no marvell that in our memory it is for the most part already set on fyer For Mr Iacobs aunswer in Pag. 192 As also for the exceptions he bringeth here of errors simply fundamentall c. of the Martyrs of the Church of Englands conuiction obstinacy c. For these I say because they are all borrowed from Mr Iacobs Replyes following whither himself referreth vs I have there purposely handled them and therefore will I not here stand vpon them but thither refer the Reader for them As namely for Mr Iacobs Reply in Pag. 192. to the aunswer therof in Pag. 203. c. For the exception of errors simply fundamentall c. to Pag. 22. 51. 114. 144-147 c. For that of the Martyrs to Pag. 8. 29. 40. 41. 44. 46. 54. 67. 79. 162. 182. For the Church off England theyr conviction obstinacy c. to Pag. 42. 53. 78. 103. 108. 126. 127. 130. 131. 132. 140. 161. 174. 175. 203. c. Finally for these and all such like to the whole Treatise following where Mr Iacob this mans Rabbi both speaketh himself and is aunswered agayne Yet before we proceed vnto it let vs see what the third note is which he would further have here to be observed D. B. His Preface to the Reader Section 4. 3. Thirdly I vvould desier the Reader to observe the vvresting and misaplying of certen places of scripture vvhich partly in this Treatise and also in other their vvritings they alleadge for their absolute and peremptory separation from the Churches of England VVhich I haue thought not amisse here to sett dovvne that thereby the Reader and themselues vppon better consideration off the ende and scope of the holy Ghost in these places may see hovv they vvrest and misapply them cleane contrary from the true and naturall sence thereof The scriptures vvhich they alleadge for theyr separation are these Then the sonnes of God saw the daughters of men Gen. 6.2 Yee shall keepe therefore all mine ordinances and all my iudgments and doe them that the land whither I bring you to dwell therein spew you not out therefore shall ye bee holy vnto mee for I the Lord am holy and I have separated you from other people that you should be mine Lev. 20.22.26 So the children of Israell which were come agayne out of captiuitie and all such as had separated themselves vnto them from the filthines of the Heathen of the land to seeke the Lord God of Israell did eate c. Ezra 6.21 Departe departe yee goe out from thence and touch no vncleane thinge goe out of the middest of her be ye cleane that beare the vessels of the Lord. Esa 52.11 Fly from the middest of Babell and departe out of the land of the Caldeans Ier. 50.8 And fly out of the middest of Babell and deliuer euery man his soule from the fierce wrath of the Lorde Ier. 5â— 6.45 Come not yee to Gilgall neither goe ye vp to Bethauen Hos 4.15 Come to Bethell and transgresse aÌ„d to Gilgall and multiply transgression c. Seeke not Bethell nor enter into Gilgall and goe not to Beersheba Amos. 4.4.5 Saue your selues from this froward generation Act. 2.40 And when certen were hardned and disobeyed speaking euell of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the Discipels c. Act. 19.9 Therefore come out from among them and separate your selues saith the Lorde and touch no vncleane thing and I will receive you 2 Cor. 6.17 And I heard another voice from heaven saying goe out of her my People that ye be not partakers in her sinnes and that ye receyve not of her plagues c Rev. 18.4 These are the very mayne grounds on vvhich theyr separation is builded vvhich being duly vveighed vvith the scope of the text you shall very easely finde that not one amongest them all vvill hold in proportion vvith this time nor beare the separation they gather from them First because either they concerne such times and states as the people that liued in them vvere professors of or subiect vnto open grosse Infidelitie either HeatheÌ„ or AntichristiaÌ„ Idolatry not in some particuler customes outvvard ordinances but in the vvhole body and povver of Heathen Antichristian religion such as could not possibly stand vvith true faith and religion at all VVhich can not be said of these times present standings vvithout open vntruth 2. Or els
because if they be not of that sort they affoard no such absolute separation at all but only from wilful rebellious and obstinate disobeyers euill speakers and from apparant grosse corruptions but not from the vvhole publike body of those assemblies nor from the lavvfull and good things vsed in such times aÌ„d standings as have not vvholy svvarued from the faith though there vvere divers grievous faults both in doctrine and practise suffered among them As by the example of the Ievvish Churches in the times of the Prophets especially of Christ himselfe may plainly appeare The Euangelistes make mention in diuers places That they worshipped God in vayne teaching for doctrine mens preceptes They made their proselites the Children of Hell two fold more then they were before They made the commaundements of God of none effect by theyr traditions such as beleeved in Christ they excommunicated c. Yet vvere they a true Church notvvithstanding these and many other grievous enormities vvith vvhom Christ himself and his Apostles had communion and fellovvship sometime in those good things that vvere among them And so might they vvith the Churches of England vvithout iustifying or allovving these things vvhich they see to be euill All vvhich things doe more fully appeare in the conference it selfe as it follovveth hereafter The Aunswer May it not fitly be said and applyed to D. B. in this case which Christ hath spoken concerning all such How sayest thow to thy brother Suffer me to cast a mote out of thyne eye and behold a beame is in thyne owne eye Hypocrite first cast the beame out of thyne owne eye and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brothers eye Mat. 7.4.5 Even the very last thing yea and all the show from Scripture that he brought for defence off theyr Church-estate what is it els but the wresting and misapplying of that Scripture to the Corinthians viz. 1. Cor. 3.12.15 as before may be seen in his Second note And now agayne for those Scriptures which here in his Third note he setteth downe eyther as alledged by vs or noted by himself out of the Evangelists for defence of theyr estate what other thing doth he in aunswer of the one or allegation of the other but onely pervert aÌ„d misapply them against the true sence and purpose of the Spirit of God therein Yet â—o so impudent is this Baalâ—e become as having so great a beame in his owne eye he will yet pretend as if he saw a mote in anothers eye and think he hath sayd ynough in defence of himself and his Churches estate if he can but pretend that others misapply the Scriptures against them But as Salomon saith Better is the poore that walketh in his vprightnes then he that abuseth his lips and is a foole Proveâ— 19.1 Therefore will I here both shew the vprightnes of our walking and withall convince the foolish abuse of his lips First then note that there are three things specially for which we alledge these and many other Scriptures which he concealeth Namely 1. That in the constitution of every true visible Church even from the beginning of the world this hath alway ben one speciall thing to be observed that it was separated from the world and abominations thereof Neyther otherwise could there ever be any true visible Church vpon the earth And yet with the Church of England it is not thus in theyr estate 2. That the Church of England now standing in confusion with the world and subiection to Antichrists Ministery worship c. we therefore as all other the people of God are bound to separate and depart from it because otherwise we could not but partake in her sinnes and so be subiect also to receyve of her plagues 3. That being thus separated from them we are bound to ioyne to the true Church of Christ in the communion of his Gospell to keep all his ordinances whatsoever he hath in his word prescribed for his Church notwithstanding any persecution or exception of Man to the contrary These three things are so evidently and vndeniably taught in these and the like Scriptures throughout the book of God as it is straunge and lamentable that any having them thus applyed should yet be so piteously blynd as not to see it or so impudently bold as to deny it For other the like Scriptures therefore teaching the same things see these also Gen. 9.27 12.1.4.7 19 12-16 et 35.2.3 Exod. 4.22.23 8.25.26.27 10.8.9.24.25.26 19.5.6 20.4.5.6 Numb 16.26 Deut. 7.3.5.6.11 Lev. 18.30 Ezra 9.14 Psal 110.3 119.21.113.128 Esa 2.2.3 8 12-18 9.16 44.5 Ier. 4.18 15.19 18.12.15 50.4.5.8 Ezech. 16.44 22.26 Micah 2.10 Zach. 2.7 8.21.22.23 Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13.14 ct 2.8.9.13 3.16.17.18 Mat. 28.20 Ioh. 7.17 10.1 5. Act. 2.41.47 5.29 9.26.27.28 17.4.7.34 28.24 Rom. 16.17.18 1 Cor. 5.6.7 Phil. 1.5.27.28 3.2 Col. 2.8.22.23 1 Thes 5.22 2 Thes 3 3-12 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5.13.14 2 Tim. 3.1.2.3.13.14.15 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Iude ver 3. Rev. 14.9.12 17.14 19. 9. 20.4.6 and 21.7.8.27 and 22 10-19 The words of these and the like Scriptures I need not here set downe The godly Reader will search them I doubt not after the example of the Beâ—eans so much commended by the Spirit of God Act. 17.11 Next I aunswer that the Apostles do themselues so alledge and apply the Scriptures to the matters which they handle as we after theyr example do in this For proof hereof see but these places following and mynd them well 1 Cor. 6.16 and 9.9.10 and 10 7-18 and 14.21 Rom. 9.25.26.27 28.29 and 10.18 Heb. 2 13.14 and 3.7 c. and 12.26 29. and 13.2.5.6 Iam. 2.8.9.10.21.22.23 and 4.5.6 and 5.16.17.18 1 Pet. 1.16 and 2. to and 3.20.21 2 Pet. 2. ch Ioh. 19.36 1 Ioh. 3.12.15 Iude ver 5.6.7.11.14.15 Rev. 11.8 Now compare herewith the places in the old Testament from whence these are borrowed and you shall fynd that divers differences might be noted between the one and the other Shall we therefore say that they are wrested or misapplyed by the Apostles God forbid To give an instance or two The Apostle Paul alledgeth that against fornication which by Moses was first spoken of lawfull mariage 1 Cor. 6.16 compared vvith Gen. 2.24 And in the same Epistle albeit the Corinthians which were of the Church there did not worship God by the Idols of Corinth but did onely eat at the feasts in the Temple which were after the sacrifices done yet the Apostle alledgeth agaynst them the example of the Israelites who both made a golden calfe and by it worshipped the Lord. 1 Cor. 8. and 10. chap. vvith Exod. 32.5.6 And the Apostle Iames speaking but of one particular breach of the Law viz the accepting of mens persons alledgeth and applyeth against it the summe of the whole Second Table Iam. 2.8.9.10 vvith Let. 19.18 And Iude agaynst Apostates Schismatiks disbounders
of themselues raylers murmurers malicious covetous presumptuous lascivious hypocriticall vnstable discontended and such like persons alledgeth the Prophecyes Scriptures examples which were before of them in Enochs tyme of the vnbeleuing Iewes the Sodomites evill Angels Cain Balaam Corah c. Iud. Epist vvith Gen. 3.1 and 4 3-16 and 19 1-25 Numb 14. and 16. and 22. chap. c. Now in these as in the rest and many other so alledged in the Scriptures may divers differences be observed Yet are they all notwithstanding fit and pertinent for that wherevnto they apply them Neyther can any be ignorant but that there will be difference eyther of time place cause sexte persons things maner or such like circumstance in any allegations and yet they be pertinent nevertheles It is not materiall then though some differences might be noted between the case of England and theyrs of whom those Scriptures speak seing notwithstanding they do fitly prove that for which they are alledged Let the Reader also mynd here an old Popish shift whereby they labour to turne away the evidence of any Scripture that is vrged against theyr corruptions viz by noting some difference between theyr case and such as the Scriptures alledged speak of This you may see every where in theyr Rhemish notes on the New Testament and in all the rest of theyr books and defence of theyr Church and religion But now further to make the abuse of his lips yet the more manifest marke that the very Scriptures here mentioned by himself speak not onely of the vvhole body and povver of Heathen and Antichristian religion as he pretendeth but of every particular ordinance and vncleane thing belonging therevnto For thus they speak expressely Tovvch no vncleane thing Keep all myne ordinances and all my iudgements Be ye cleane Partake not in her sinnes c. By all which is most plainely forbidden all maner of partaking not of the whole onely but of every parcell of Antichrists or any other false worship whatsoever As to the second difference which he noteth here of theyr vvilfulnes rebellion obstinacy partaking vvith the lavvfull and good things vsed among them c. it is handled and answered in the Treatise following Pag. 42. 43. 88. 108. 130. 132 161. 170. 171. 175. 180. The particulars which he citeth out of the Evangelists towching the Iewes are the speaches and testimony of reproof given vnto them by Christ whē now he threatned to take away from them his kingdome because of those sinnes and other the like among them Mat. 21.43 This man himself knoweth we never doubted but true Churches might fall into errour and the members thereof walk corruptly in which respect they are subiect to be reproved And yet notwithstanding the Church constitution and functions be lawfull and ioyned withall vntill they refuse the voyce of Christ and will not be reclaymed Rev. 2. and 3. Math. 21. and. 23. Act. 2. and 13. and 17. and. 28. chap. Wherevnto when once they come then are all taught to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation Act. 2.40 and 13.46.47 19.9 Esa 8 12.-16 Now if we may separate from such as have ben true Churches when they so fall into sinne and persist as is aforesayd notwithstanding that otherwise they professe many Doctrines of truth how much more may and ought we to separate from all false Churches which stād in the apostasy of Antichrist that Man of sinne howsoever they professe some truth withall 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4 Ezech. 16.44 But of the difference both of the estate and dealing with true Churches and false compared together as also of the weaknes and falsehood of this māner of reasoning which here he vseth I have other where spokē sufficiently both in this Treatise following to which he referreth vs Pag. 92. 161. 195. and in another already published viz. A Treatise of the Ministery of England Pag. 45. 61 62. Note withall that none of the Evangelists neyther any other Scriptures do shew that Christ or the Prophets did at any tyme communicate with the Iewes in any evill but alway reproved them Whereas it is not possible that any should communicate with the Church of England though it be in theyr best things even of the Ministery of the Word Sacraments Prayer etc. but they must needs partake in evill As namely with the Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion and other sinnes of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Let him shew the contrary in any one thing among them iff he can And of this also see more hereafter Pag. 170. 171. 180. Finally let him tell vs if he have said any thing here which they in K. Henry the eight his dayes might not have alledged when the Popes supremacy with much of his religion besides was cast out of the Land and yet they oppugned the truth in many things and became drunken with the blood of the Martyrs notwithstanding D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 5. Obiection But vnto the examples of these Churches me thinkes I heare already that common aunsvver and last refuge of theyrs vvhich is this Those Churches say they were in a true outward constitution And therefore were the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding those grosse errors which they held in other poincts of doctrine and practise But contrariwise say they the Churches of England have a false outward constitution and therefore they are no true Churches of Christ notwithstanding theyr truthes of doctrine c. Ansvver So the outvvard constitution is the maine poinct on vvhich they vvholy depend and for vvhich they vvholy condempne the Churches of England from being true Christians in state of salvation VVhich I doubt not plainly to take avvay 1 And first concerning the constitution of the Ievvish Churches If vve should examine the same vve should finde that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Tvvo high Priests having by simonie crept in at once vvhich vvas vnlavvfull and contrarie to Gods ordinance notvvithstanding their gloses in their other ‡ ‡ 9. Reasons vvritinges to allovv them to be lavvfull by * * 2 Chrō 24 2.3 Zadok and Abimelech and by ††2 King 24.18 Seruiah the chief Prieste Zephaniah the Second vvhich make against themselues For there vvas never but one high Priest as they confesse * * Ansvver to Mr Hild. Pag. 50. Ergo not tvvo as here vvere the rest vvere indeed inferior to him And yet amongst those there vvas a chiefly also vvho vvere called sometimes Second Priests or Priests of the Second order 2. King 23.4 and sometimes chief Priests Math. 27.1 These Scriptures being compared vvith those in the margin by them cited doe make it more plaine Novv if the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through couetousnes as the Histories make mention It is not likely that the inferior offices did remaine sound but vvere asmuch or more altered The Priests generally being such couetous
vvicked persons theyr offices beeing very gainefull and besides they liuing vnder the authoritie of the Heathirish Romans vvho ruled ouer them All these things considered it is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution on vvhich they so much depend vvere vvholy altered from the right institution and therefore vvould make nothing for them As for theyr allegation of Mat. 23.1 VVhere they say Christ testifieth that they had true offices by saying they satt in Moses chaire It vvill not help them any vvhit at all For Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chaire must be vnderstood of somevvhat else themselves ‡ ‡ Mr Barrovv Mr Greēvvood in diuers Letters and Treatises have vnderstood it heretofore of Moses doctrine The Aunswer Do not they erre that imagine evill And doth not a deceyver speak lyes Prov. 14.22.25 What then may we think of him that counteth it a small thing to lye against Man if he do not also open his mouth against heaven and give the lye to the holy Ghost himself See both in this man here Against vs and I feare against his own conscience he forgeth a lye when he sayth vve do vvholy depend on their outvvard constitution c. For he knoweth we obiect against them besides and separate from them for much false doctrine publikly taught and mainteyned among them and for theyr wretched persecution of the truth and Martyrs of Iesus Therefore do we not wholy depend on theyr outward constitution From which it is to be noted that he severeth theyr publik doctrine as himself sheweth in the next Section and so therefore here we speak accordingly And that he knoweth these things appeareth both by this Treatise first published by himself where we have declared it in divers particulars Pag. 66. 108. 157. 158 159. 160. and in that himself hath seen and alleadgeth in this very Section another treatise written in answer of Mr A. H. where mo instances are given concerning this matter As may be seen in that book Pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. 22. 23. 37. 90. 91. To the holy Ghost he giveth the lye yea and maketh Christ our Lord a sinner in that which here he speaketh first of the constitution of the Ievvish Churches For the Scripture teacheth that the constitution of that Church was a true one and that Christ did himself communicate therein with them Yet this man besides that he sayth afterward that it is very likely the offices and outvvard constitution thereof vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Euen here at first he sayth peremptorily that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Which how shamefully false it is may appeare even by this that in those very tymes the estate of the Iewes Church yet was such as they were a people separated from the world having the true Ministery ordinances worship and administration which God by Moses had commanded As these Scriptures do plainely testify Luk. 1.6.8 9.10 11. 2.22.23.24.27.46 Mat. 8.4 Ioh. 1.19 4.22 5.1 11.55.2 Tim. 1.3.5 Yea they would not at any hand admit eyther of confusion of people or of any other Ministery then God had ordeyned As may be seen for the first in Act. 21.28 29. and for the latter in Iob. 1 19-25 Mat. 21.25.26 How shameles then is it to say as here he doth that theyr constitution was as greatly altered and corrupted as that of the Churches of England which to this day stand confused of all sorts of people aswell the prophanest as the best among them and have no other Ministery or Leiturgy but such as they have receyved from Antichrist the man of sinne and from Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 And further if the Iewish Church had ben thus corrupted as he feareth not to affirme how could Christ have communicated with them as he did but he must needs have sinned ād that highly against the Law of God viz. if he had as it is now in England joyned to such a Church as were vnseparated from the World or had partaken with a false Ministery or had sent others to a straunge Priesthood and Service or had approved by word or deed any other ordinances then those which God had commaunded c. This Scribe then must eyther approve the Church-constitution of England by the word of God or els confesse that it and the Iewish Churches are in this poynt nothing alike or if neyther of these that then Iesus Christ was a sinner Of whom the truth itself and work of our redemption testify that he knew no sinne at all but was like to vs in all things sinne excepted 2 Cor. 5.21 Heb. 4.15 7.26 This man then doth thus also both blaspheme the Sonne of God and make the holy Ghost a lyar But there were he saith tvvo high Priests at once vvhereas by the Lavv of God there should be but one 1. If it were so albeit thus they offended in the number yet still there was that office and function of Priesthood which God had ordeyned not a new one of mans devise as is the whole Hierarchy of England from the hyest Archbishop to the lowest Parish Priest And so there is no comparison between these two 2. This was the personall sinne of the men not the constitution of that Church neyther of the Offices wherein they were See it in another example Iudas an Apostle of Christ yet betrayeth him Doth it therefore follow that his office of Ministery wherein he was set by Christ himself was vnlawfull Nay that was the sinne of the Man not of the Office wherein he was What is this then to the question in hand when as the Ministery of England is charged to be straunge vnlawfull false in the very offices and functions thereof Yea and this man himself doth here by the whole course of his speach graunt as much 3. Is there any thing here said for the Priests and constitution of the Church of England which the most popish Priests Prelates Monks c. may not aswell alledge for theyrs Is theyr Ministery or constitution therefore such as man be ioyned withall 4. See how straungely these men forget and contradict themselves T. G. first Reply Pag. 83 84. Mr Cartwright writing against D. Whitgift saith If the vvhole practise of the Church vnder the Lavv be looked vpon it shall not be found that any other ecclesiasticall Ministery vvas appointed then those orders of hy Priests and Levites c. vvhich vvere appoynted by the Lavv of God And further that as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any straunge doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true do rine vnder the Name of any other function then vvas instituted by God Yet this man with an whores forehead shameth not to perswade that the offices and outvvard constitution of that Church vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Thus
false Church And contrarily Thirdly I aske Is not the Hierarchy and Church constitution of Antichrist the most detestable anarchy of Sathan that ever was And doth not Sathan far more commonly and readily part with his false doctrine then with it when he must needs part with the one 2 Thes 2.9 and yet can retayne the other He is subtill and of long experience he can mynd and knoweth full well that so long as he holdeth his owne constitution of a Church he can quickly vppon any opportunity bring in his doctrine agayne even with a trice For why He hath both the people ready for the receyving of it being yet still in the confusion and bondage of Antichrist and his owne Ministery also to be imployed in the publishing and serving thereof theyr Offices Callings Ministrations Maintenance being all ready at hand and fit for the purpose Whereas on the contrary when the false constitution is abolished then false doctrine wanteth both hee woonted place of receipt and her nimble wings by which she should spread and fly abroad And here I could alledge for proof hereof the prefer Ministery and estate of the Church of England which being of Antichrist Sathans graundchild and he now having spyed his tyme and found some opportunity beginneth apace by this meanes to bring in agayne such doctrines of his as had for a tyme ben suppressed As namely Free-vvill Auricular Confession Christs soule to descend into Hell The Church of Rome to be a true Church c. Witnesse the Books and publik Sermons of Bilson Bancroft Hooker Androes Harsenet Barret and other the Priests and Prelates of that Church the Marchants of these and the like wares off the Beast in Court City Countrey Vniversity and where not The same thing you may mynd also thus So long as the house standeth still and is furnished with servants and Ministers it is ready for the implements and furniture though removed for a tyme to be brought in agayne and soone to be set vp in theyr woonted place And if you would see an example of these things yet in memory look but at the Churches estate in K. Edwards and Q. Maryes dayes compared together The popish constitution of the Church being not abolished in King Edwards tyme how soone was the Popes doctrine yea and his supremacy in Queen Maryes dayes spread and acknowledged throughout the Land Yet the same doctrines of truth were in K. Edwards tyme published and receyved which now are in England And very like also that it was then with more zeale and love of the truth thē now it is specially considering the generall coldnes of men and the cruell persecution of the truth to which this age synce is come Mynd further that the Offices houses and maintenance of the Fryers and Nunnes being before in the time of K. Henry the eight quite taken away they were not able in all Q. Maryes raigns to reare them vp agayne No albeit they iudged them lawfull and necessary aswell as the other poynts of Popery and did also very earnestly desier and labour to have them reestablished So great a matter it is to have a thing abolished in the whole constitution thereof Even as when an house is rased and pulled downe to the very foundation And here vpon this occasion let me also aske Whether if the Callings and Livings of the Prelates and Priests together with the Idoll Temples and confusion of all maner people in the body of the Church now had in England were so dealt with as the Abbats Monks Abbeyes and Nunryes then were there would not fewer Iesuites and Seminaryes come into the Land Popery lesse increase treason against her Maiesty be lesse attempted and finally all the meanes and hope for the full replanting of Antithrists religion agayne in that Church be vtterly removed and taken away Let this Scribe then go and perswade such as himself that the outward constitution of the Church is but as the tithing of Mynt Annise and Commin c. Whosoever have theyr 〈◊〉 exercised to discerne good and evill will playnely see that notwithstanding any thing he pretendeth yet it is and ought to be accounted among the waighty matters of the Law of God Yea that it is of far other importance and consequence then most men think or will yet be perswaded albeit even experience the Mistresse of fooles might in all this tyme and tryall have taught them sufficient if ynough were ynough for men In cases of Religion Now for his Reason here any may see by that which hath ben sayd that it is very frivolous and of no waight at all The Proposition or first part hath nothing for the ground of it but that which is in question and neyther is alway true nor can be yeelded vnto for very great and waighty causes here before declared Vnto which adde these also 1. That many errors in doctrine are and may be far lesse then the errors of the outward constitution when they are truly compared together 2. That the true outward constitution of the Church alway implyeth both a separation of the people from the World and the joyning of them together in the fellowship of the Gospell and both these to be voluntary Which particulars being considered with the former will teach him not barely to set downe but duly to prove the Proposition in his next Reply The Assumption or second part of the Reason is in some fence true in some sence false and in both against himself and their Churches estate When Churches are set in the constitution and way of Christ if afterward they fall into some errour of doctrine they are notwithstāding for the former to be reputed true Churches vntill being admonished they refuse to heare the voyce of Christ and to yeeld to the truth Thus the Assumption is true and of vs confessed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes c. But when theyr case cometh to be such as they will rather abide in errour then obey the truth and voyce of Christ this so wilfull persisting simply overthroweth such a company from being a true Church in such estate And thus the Assumption is false and so proved to be by the example of the said Churches And both wayes it is agaynst him and theyr Church as will yet further appeare by that which is now to be spoken of his question wherein he would be resolved He asketh VVhat if a company of Arrians Anabaptists or Papists should be gathered and established in a true outvvard constitution and still retayne theyr fundamentall errors before named VVhether then their outvvard constitution should make them a true Church Yea or no. I aunswer 1. Not onely false constitution but false doctrine also retayned make a false Church If it were so then that they could have a true constitution as he supposeth yet by reason of theyr false doctrine they should be a false Church 2 I aske also of him Whether these companyes of whom he speaketh
were true Churches when they fell into those errors as were the Churches of Galatia when the errors about Circumcision and the Law crept in among them Or whether they were Hereticks Sectaryes or the like such as were Hymeneus Philetus Alexander the Apostates of Rome c. falling from the true faith and Churches of God when they came to be gathered and established as he fancyeth If they were of the former sort then they are to be estemed and admonished as true Churches till by despising the voyce of Christ the Kingdome of God be taken from among them Gal. 1.2 vvith 5.2.4 Mat. 21.33.43 1 Cor. 1.2 vvith 15.12 Rev 2. 3. chap. If of the latter then are they no true Churches at all but false and detestable Synagogues of Sathan whatsoever truth in constitution or otherwise they shall pretend Rev. 2.9 Act. 20.30 Col. 2.8.23 2 Thes 2.3.7 1 Tim. 1.19.20 6.20.21 and 2 Tim. 2.17.18 and 3.5.6.13 and. 4.14 Heb. 10.38.39 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3 In de ver 18.19 Rev. 13.11 17. 18 chap. 3. In a true constitution must alway be mynded a calling by the word of God a separation from the world a joyning together in the fellowship of the Gospell and that by a voluntary profession thereof and submission therevnto Now these things considered how is it posible that the Arrians Anabaptists or Papists retayning theyr errours should yet be gathered and established in a true outward constitution Can the light of truth have communion with the darkenes of falsehood Or can Christ in his constitution agree with Belial in the errours of Arians Anabaptists Papists c. 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 4. Finally if he will not heare our aunswer nor the Scriptures testimony let him yeâ— heare Mr Iewell a Prelate of theyr Church resolve his question in this maner * Ievvels Reply to Harding Pag 99 VVithout Christ the Church is no Church neyther hath any right or clayme vvithout his promise noâ— any promise vvithout his vvord Now this D. B. affirmeth himself that these of whom he speaketh are vvithout Christ For he sayth †Before in Sect. 3. theyr errors do of theyr ovvne nature cleane abolish from Christ Therefore by his owne assertion and Mr Iewels layd together they can be nâ—â—eue Church whatsoever faith or constitution they should pretend neyther have they anâ— right in such estate to his blessing Which yet is promised to them that are in the true waâ— and constitution of Christ Mat. 28.20 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Lev. 26.11.12 Thus then appeareth that he doth both ignorantly fever the doctrine wholy from the Churches constitution and that yet when they are considered apart as some tymes and â— some respects they may be each of them that is both the doctrine and constitution according as they are true or false avayle directly to the ouerthrowing or making of the Church to be likewise true or false so as hath ben declared before His crafty putting of faulty here for falâ— will nothing help him but bewrayeth his corrupt dealing the more Els let him shew in his next if he can whether ever there were true Church that stood in false constitution Neyther is the obiection of the Iewish constitution answered at all but remayneth of force against them still And that so much the more as the Churches of England remayne both in falâ— constitution and in false doctrine for both which they are vnder the wrath of God and all â—ound to separate from them And whosoever will not so do it remayneth a grievous sinne vpon theyr heads for which they must answer to God in that day when he will cast the Beast and false Prophet with all such as have ben seduced by them into vtter destruction to have their part in the lake which burneth with fyer and brimstone which is the second death 2 Thes â— 10.11.12 Rev. 14.9.10.11 17.1.2 19.20.21 21.8 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 7. Lastly concerning our corruptions As we cannot iustifie them to be no corruptioÌ„s but must needes acknowledge that there are many yet remaining in our land which vvere left by that man of sinne are as thornes vnto our sides vvhich vve hope God will in time abolish Iudg. 2.3 So dare vve not runne into your extremities to condempne our Churches for such corruptions but waight the appointed time of God for the redresse thereof Yet in the meane time so longe as those most excellent truthes and doctrines of salvation for which God make vs thankfull are still reteyned and held as soundly as by any Church vpon the face of the earth the other errors not simply ouerthrovving the same beeing not held of obstinacy and being also for the most part of great controversie and disputation among the learned So long I say communion in things lavvfull is to be kept with them as before is noted in the example of other Churches Othervvise it vvill come to passe by reason of the * * Mat. 25.13 10.23 dieuersitie in opinions and iudgementes vvhich by the corruption of our nature vve remaine in in this tabernacle as hath ‡ ‡ Lev. 4. Psal 19.12 bene in all ages and * * 1 Cor. 13.9 12. shal be so long as this life of imperfection indureth that no communion can euer bee had vvith any Church liuing no nor any one Christian vvith another Which to affirme vvere most absurd and vngodly These observations beeing considered I doubt not but the Lorde vvill adde a blessing to this vvorke That such as are simple hearted and have exceeded in eagernesse of zeale may see theyr extremitie in so rashly and vnadvisedly separating from and condempning the Churches of England sometymes theyr Nurses and Mothers as before is noted Whereby God may have the glory themselves the comforte euen the salvation of theyr soules through Christ D. B. The Aunswer Now at length D. B. yeeldeth the cause himself So great is the truth and so greatly it prevayleth against every oppugner thereof To omit that he confesseth they cannot justify theyr corruptions and yet they can abide in them he sayth also they must needs acknovvledge that they have many corruptions remayning vvich vvere left by that man of sinne vvhich are as thornes vnto theyr sides Blessed be God which maketh the enemyes themselues bring glory and testimony to his truth They are so convinced as he sayth plainely they must needs acknovvledge it Now therefore let him name them in his next or confesse those to be of them which I have noted hereafter Pag. 63. c. Till then I will onely inferre this herevppon that seing they are such as himself here graunteth them to be viz corruptions of the Man of sinne and thornes to theyr sides even therefore are all bound to separate from them as being condenmed by the word of God For hath not the Lord commaunded all his people wholy to leave the Man of sinne with all his corruptions not to partake in any of his
their plagues Rev. 18.4 And if it be well mynded Mr Iacob himself howsoever he pretend otherwise yet in deed yeeldeth thus much when he is driven to confesse that theyr constitution is such * Pag. 37. 61 69. 70. 84. 154. as they stand in error and that of Antichrist against the Second commaundement in vayne vvorship departing from and denying the faith in their Ministery c. But for these and all the rest thou mayest see and I pray thee good Reader well to mynd the Arguments Replyes and Aunswers following From the reading whereof I will not not now any longer hold thee The God of peace tread Sathan vnder thy feet and by his word and Spirit lead thee into the way of truth to the conservation of thy soule vnto life eternall And if thou reapest any fruit of my labours give prayse vnto God and pray for me the weakest of his servants and vnworthyest of the witnesses of Iesus The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ be with thy spirit Amen Thyne in Christ Fran Iohnson AN AVNSWER TO M. H. IACOBS ARGVMENTS AND REPLIES concerning the Churches and Ministery of ENGLAND Chap. 1. Of the Title of Maister Iacobs Book which is thus A DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministerie of ENGLAND FRAN. IOHNSON his Aunsvver THe defence of the Churches and Ministery of England were an enterprise worth the taking in hand if Maister Iacob effected in deed what the Title of his Book pretendeth in show But he that readeth his book and mindeth it well shall find him promise mountaines and performe molehils Let the sequell shew it Now I would that Maister Iacob should speak himself without stammering what Churches and what Ministerie of ENGLAND he defendeth All or some only It is a poynt needfull to be knowen and mentioned All may see it would giue great light for deciding the controuersy betwen vs. And who would not think he should readily declaer it Yet he flies from it every where Therefore that he may not alway so doe but may be drawen to answer directly vnto it as also for the Readers better help and more clearing of the truth I wil particulerly and as plainely as I can describe how the Churches and Ministerie of England are to be considered And thē expect his aunswer If I be mistaken or if maister Iacob and such as liue in that Church who therefore haue better occasion to know it can do it more fully and plainely I shal willingly heare it In the meane time this is my iudgment First for the Churches to consider them as followeth 1 In respect of the Conuocation-house which consisteth of the Prelates and some other of the Priests assembled togeather with them And so they haue but one Church in the Land And that when there is a Parliament or like occasion I take it also that out of this Church the Prince the Nobles and people are excluded Saue that when they haue determined their matters they haue for some of them the consent of the Parliament 2 According to the number of their Archbishops and so they haue two Metropolitan Churches vnder which all the rest are subiect and cōprised 3 According to the number of their Arch and Lord Bishops and so there are about 26. Churches comprehending all within their seuerall Diocesses Hither also I referre the Cathedrall Churches 4 According to the ecclesiastical Courts of the Archbs. Lordbs Chancelors Archdeacons Commissaries and Officials vnder which all the other Ministers and people stand subiect and so according to the number of those Courts there may be some 200. Churches or thereabout 5 According to the number of the Parish assemblies of which all stand mēbers and so ther are many thousād Churches in the Land Hitherto of the Churches The Ministery may be considered two wayes Eyther more generally as they are all Priests or Deacons or more particularly as they are superiour or inferiour Superiour as Archbishops Lordbishops Suffraganes Deanes Archdeacons and the rest of that sort Inferiour as Parsons Vicars Curates Stipendary Preachers Houshold Chapleynes and the like Then in al these consider fower things 1. their office 2. their entrāce 3. their Administration 4. their maintenance This for the Ministerie Now let M. Iacob tell vs in his next 1. whether he defend all these Churches and Ministerie of England or but some of them 2. If not all but some only which then they are that he defendeth and which he leaveth as vtterly vnlawfull without all defence 3. For those he defendeth let him show in what place and pages of his book we may find the defence of them For whether it be that I perceyue it not or that he doth it not of this I am sure for my self that I cannot find in al his book so much as any one of them defended As others find let thē speak And to put al out of doubt let M. Iacob shew it Lastly if he will be intreated let him tell the cause why his book being entituled A defence of the Churches Ministerie of England came not out Cum priuilegio Yea why it was printed beyond sea and not in England It is a shrewd token cōsidering the title that his Defence euen at home amōg his neighbours is accoūted very weak and simple For the name Brownists by which we are reproched in the forefrōt of his book note these things 1. That in like manner long since by the Priests and Pharisees were the Apostles and Primitiue Churches termed * Act. 24.5 a sect of Nazarites and at this day by the Papists are the Professors of the Gospel called Calvinists Zuinglians Huguenotes and the like 2. M. Browne from whose name this byword was first taken vp is a member and Minister of M. Iacobs Church not of ours yet holding as we heare in his iudgment the truth we professe but for his practise stāding in the apostasy and false worship wherein they are So then not we but M. Iacob and such like may fitly be called Brownists inasmuch as in their iudgment they hold the things we stand for to be good yet in their practise like Browne are other men walking with the Church of England in her euill way 3. For our selues we acknowledg with the disciples in the Primitiue Churches and the faithful in al ages since that we are ‡ Act. 11.26 Christians striuing now for our time and estate against the remainder of the abominations of Antichrist to keep the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus Therefore doth it not trouble vs that by M. Iacob or any other we are thus reuiled for the name of Christ It is inough for vs that the †1 Pet. 4.14 spirit and truth of God which on their part is euil spoken of is on our part glorified But yet let him and all such take heed vnto it in time Now I proceed to his maine and maimed Argument Which is as followeth Chap. 2. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it is novv propounded and printed by vvhich
he vvould proue the Churches of England to be the true Churches of God VVhatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian in state of saluation That is sufficienâ— to make a companie so gathered together to be a true Church But the whole doctrine as it is publikly ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. professed and practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation ††See for the addition of these vvords in Pag. 6. and our publique Assemblies are therein gathered together Therefore it is sufficieÌ„t to make the publique Assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson THe aunswer of this ArgumeÌ„t followeth But first I wil proposid another prouing by better reason that the Church-assemblies of England are in their constitution so far from being true Churches of God as they stand in AntichristiaÌ„ estate and are therfore subiect to wrath The ARGVMENT is this Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered togeather likewise to stand though they professe withall in their constitution many doctrines of truth otherwise profitable to saluation But the Hierarchie Leiturgie and confusion ecclesiasticall as they are publikly ‡ Their Ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ Courts Iniunctions practise canon Lavve Books of articles of coÌ„mon prayer of ordering Priestes and consecrating Archbishops c. professed practised by law in England are sufficient to make a †As for exaÌ„ple the Prelates the Priessts c. particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath And the Church-assemblies in England are in ‡ their estate companies so gathered together Therefore are these also sufficient to make the Church-assemblies of England likewise to stand though they professe vvithall in their constitution many doctrines of truth othervvise profitable to saluation This Argument I propound as being more sound then M. Iacobs both for matter and maner Let others iudge Now I come to examine his Where first it is needfull so to set it downe as it was heretofore propounded by himself And that was thus as followeth Chap. 3. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it vvas first propounded and aunswered VVHatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true ChristiaÌ„ in state of saluatioÌ„ That is sufficient to make a company so gathered togeather to be a true Church But the whole doctrine ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Therefore it is sufficient to make the publique assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer TO omit the Proposition vntill it better appeare by the defence of the Assumption how to take and vnderstand it we wil for the present only shew the weakenes of the AssumptioÌ„ And this also the rather because they seeme wholy to depend vpon it H. Iacob his Reply THe AuÌ„svverer omitteth the PropositioÌ„ for in deed it is most certain But he denieth the Assumption vvhich yet is as certaine also That the doctrine in our booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian Fr. Iohnson his 2. Aunsvver IN the former aunswer I omitted the PropositioÌ„ not because of the certeinty of it as the Replier dreameth but till we might see by his defence of the Assumption how to take it as then I noted Now therefore hauing seen in his reply the * This I vvrot vvhen I had seen Mr. Iacobs first Repâ—e herafter follovving vvhich novv he hath secoÌ„ded vvith another of like sort VVhether it be not so as here I say let the indifferent Reader vpon tryall iudge vnlearned and vnconscionable pretences by which he would seem to defend the Assumption wheÌ„ in deed he doth nothing else but cast a mist before the eyes of the simple I giue him to vnderstand that the whole Argument is lame and faulty in euery part The Proposition is not absolutely true as now by his defence of the Assumption it appeareth he vnderstandeth it The Assumption is not only false as was proued in the * My first auÌ„svver vvas the 3. ExceptioÌ„s and 9. Reasons vvhich here do follovv former auÌ„swer but also lacketh a foot whereon it should goe if it were perfect and entire For whereas in the Proposition mention is made not only of the making of a true Christian but also of a companie so gathered togeather he should in the AssumptioÌ„ if he would haue had it sound and perfect not only haue assumed that the doctrine c. is sufficient to make a true Christian but haue added also that their assemblies be companies so gathered together Which being not done both the Assumption waÌ„teth one of the feet and the Conclusion inferreth more then was in the premisses and so the whole Syllogisme is faultie and disfigured Thus might we without any further aunswer returne this ArgumeÌ„t to the first framers of it to be better fashioned Yet in hope to doe them good by the blessing of God we will more particularly lay open the weakenes of this Replie And first where he saith the Proposition is most certain and yet in his defence of the Assumption declareth that he so taketh it as whatsoeuer amongst them be ioyntly togeather held and ioyned with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures we aunswer that in this sence the Proposition neither is nor can be absolutly true For who knoweth not that ‡ Gal. 5.2.4 such things may be ioined with Christ as do abolish from him And again †2 cor 6.14.15.16.17 that Christ Antichrist cannot accord together Either therefore the Proposition is not general but admitteth limitatioÌ„ and theÌ„ is not the ArgumeÌ„t good Or if it be generall without any limitation so as whatsoeuer be added to or commingled with that which otherwise might make a true ChristiaÌ„ or Church yet it hindereth nothing at all then is it not alway true as may appeare by the former exceptions and many mo that might be alledged Next touching the Assumption besides that it is same it is also vntrue as hath ben proued Some balme in deed this man bringeth to cure it but it hath no other effect saue only to manifest so much the more that the soare of their Assemblies cannot be healed In our former aunswer we first tooke 3. Exceptions against theÌ„ comparing together their profession and practise then we alleadged 9. ReasoÌ„s directly concluding the falshood of the Assumption H. Iacob his 2. Reply Before I examine this your aunswer I will desire you and all others to note that all your Ecceptions and Reasons with your defence of them hereafter following doe consist of these
and vndersong M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. as if for our faith and worship of God we should turne from the liuing God to dead men Esa 8.20 from the law and testimony of the Lord to the opinions and aberrations of Man I might besides wish the Reader to mind the vnsauerie salt of your raising and reprochfull speaches scattered throughout your book but I omit it And now I come to the particular examination of this Replie of yours You say He that hath but half an eye may see the meaning of the vvordes of your Proposition c. Well Mr. Iacob then your self hauing two eyes might easily see I omitted the Proposition not for the darknes or doubtfulnes of the words but because it yet appeared not how your self vnderstood them whether so as you make the Proposition general admitting no exception or particular and to be restrained And why do you not yet tel vs how you take it Are you afraid to say either the one or the other either that it is general or that it is particular If you make it general admitting no limitation then is your Proposition false Page 5. as I showed in my last aunswer which you cannot gainesay If it be particular then is your Syllogisme a meer Sophisme your Argument of no moment neither in any Mood or Figure How think you Mr. Iacob Is not your reason very sound and Clerklike But you perhaps with two eyes see not so much as others may with half an eye Touching the Assumption to follow your words in order I showed that wheras in the Proposition you spake of a companie so gathered togeather you should for your purpose haue assumed that your Assemblies be companies so gathered And tel me ought you not so to haue don seeing you make but one Syllogisme If you ought is it vvrangling to shew what is wanting in your Reason If you ought not why haue you now made an addition to your Assumption which was not before Is it because I should not stumble at a straw or is it not because the Argument is vnsound without it though you note the contrarie in the margent If it be sound without this why doe you not so proue it If it be not why doe you not confesse it Nay why are you both so conceited in your self and so desirous to blind your Reader as when the fault is shewed you yet you wil not onely not accknowledg it but lay the blame vpon him that would draw you to see it This in deed is not to stumble at a straw but wilfully to fall downe when you might be holpen vp Now although you be vnworthy of any further help Yet because I I would haue you see it I wil once againe labour to make it plaine vnto you if I can beat it into your head You make but one Syllogisme and in it you conclude your publique Assemblies to be true Churches Now you know I suppose that alwaies in a good Argument whatsoeuer is in the Conclusion must needes be in one of the premisses before But in yours it is not so Your conclusion is of your publique assemblies and yet you neuer spake of them before in either of the premisses Can you by this perceive how extremely faulty and vnsound your Argument is But you think to help your self by saying you meant so much Sure you are neare driuen M. Iacob For what wrangler could not so help out any matter Yet here you stay not Euen your words you say imply as much And do they indeed Tell me then whether here you include and defend all the publique Assemblies of the Land as they now stand or but some of them whether those that haue dumbe Ministers aswell as those that haue Preachers whether those that haue non residents aswell as those that haue their Incumbents whether the Cathedral Churches aswell as the Parishes For all these are by Law Churches among you the Cathedrall the Parishionall those that haue non residents or humbe dogs with fower Sermons a yeare Pluralities c. Then tell me whether all these Assemblies of yours be companies by Lavv gathered together in that profession practise wherof you speak Besides where the words in your Proposition were of companies so gathered together c. and you in your addition to the Assumption haue in steed thereof companies gathered together in the doctrines c. why are you so vnconstant and fearefull in your words why do you not keep the same termes why made you not the addition as was showed you it ought to haue ben Did you think that then I would and might the more call vpon you for proof thereof That belike was the matter For in deed I do and must needs so much the more cal for it And how will you ever prove it that your Assemblies are companies so gathered together that is by a free voluntary profession of the truths among you * Act. 2.41 11.24 Psal 110.3 Esa 44.5 2 Cor. 6.17.18 and 9.13 Zach. 8.21 23. 1 Thes 1.6 such as is in true CHRIstians and in the manner of gathering euery true Church when as you are by Lavv compelled so to professe or rather to submit to that profession Yea and by compulsion of Lavv are gathered not only in and vnto those truths but in and to Antichristian errors which cannot stand therewithall I pray you M. Iacob iustifie by the Scriptures such profession to be that which is in true Christians and such gathering to be that which is in true Churches Next where you charge me with strange dealing for saying your vvriting declared that you so took the Proposition as vvhatsoeuer ‡ These vvords among them Mr. Iacob leaueth out among you be iointly together held ioyned vvith that vvhich othervvise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notvvithstanding you are so to be reputed as if there vvere no such additions or commixtures First speak plainely whether you doe so take your Proposition or not Whatsoeuer you aunswer it will be against your self and manifest the weaknes of your Argument as I haue declared a litle before Secondly why wrote you not all my words but left out som of them was it because you thought that would haue cleared me of strange dealing and left it vpoÌ„ your own head Thirdly where you say in all your vvriting you haue no such vvord no syllable no letter sounding to that sence Lift vp your eares Mr Iacob and tel me how these wordes of yours do sound in your hearing †M Iacobs 1. Reply to the 1. Reason follovving Christ and some outward ceremonies and orders of Antichrist are joined together among vs vvhich things yet vve think to be Christs ovvne Againe The ‡ His 1. Reply to the 4. Reason fâ—llovving outvvard manner of calling to the Ministery and some outvvard ceremonies vsed by Mahomet and the Pope doe not destroy faith true Christianity And yet more plainely when you say *
the dead to make reconciliation for them thereby spoken of in the book of Machabees And according to your second sence of fundamentall that ‡ 2 Machab. 14.41.42 commending of vvilfull murther taught in the same book of Machabees Not to speak of the Magick in the “ Iob. 6.6 book of To bit for healing any that is troubled with a Divell or evill spirit by a perfume made of a fishes heart and liuer These sweet doctrines with other the like do those books affoord But it skils not so long as with a bold face notwithstanding you can beare it out and say still your errors are not fundamentall c. Is this your conscience Mr. Iacob Will you thus still plead for Baall But to proceed in the third place you speak of those words according to Christs ordinance Where first marke that these words in your Article are to be referred to all the particulars going before So as to maintaine your Argument you must proue your Assemblies to be so gathered the pure vvord so preached anh the Sacraments so administred among you as Christ hath ordeined Thus might you more perswade vs and defend your selues better in one half sheet of paper then in a thousand such frivolous pamphlets as you sparse abroad to no purpose at all except it be to lay open your owne nakednes so much the more Whereas I alledged that vvhen and vvhere the vvorde is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ this you say is false too Often have I heard you say so but never could I heare you proue it To help you therefore I will show you the way how to doe it if any such thing could be And that is thus first syncerely as before God to reckon vp all the offices of Ministery which your Church by Law enjoyeth and then to note the Scriptures which teach that Christ ordained those offices in his Church secondly to show the manner of entrance into your severall offices prescribed by Law and then to name the places of Scripture where such calling is appointed by Christ This you see is a plaine and ready way touching these two points to stablish the conscience and to confound your adversaries not with show of words but with substance of matter I hope it will do you some pleasure Mr. Iacob that I haue showed you so good a way All the thanks I aske for it is that you would walk vprightly in it Now if you list not take the paines or find the way all to hard for your Archbs Lordbs Archdeacons Parsons Vicars Stipendaries and the rest of your Priests and Deacons yet at least for your self show it in defence of your owne office and calling first when you were made Priest and Deacō by the Prelates and thē when you became an House-Priest in the countrey and since a Mercenary-Priest in the citty Now I heare your Lords the Prelates haue commaunded you silence and you as an obedient childe of such reverend Fathers do readily submit to their Antichristian authority Yet let this be no excuse to put of the clearing of the former matter but seeing you haue so much the more leasure do it the more soundly and speedily Doubtles it would give great light in this case Next you say your ordinarie Preachers are true Pastors as touching the substance of Pastorall calling but whom meane you by ordinary Preachers c. Your Prelates I remember are by Law your Ordinaries Doe you meane it of them your treatise shewes it not Tell vs then who they be of whom you speak 1. whether all or some onely of your Preachers 2. whether you have any extraordinarie Preachers that have some other office 3. what you judge of those that are not in the number of the ordinary Preachers you speak of whether they also be true Pastors 4. what you account according to the Scripture the substance of the Pastorall calling whereof you speak All these points you see must be cleared afore we can vnderstand what you speak or whereof you affirme So mysticall or rather in deed so fearefull and deceitfull is your manner of speach Touching the question what is substantiall in the Ministery if you put it over to me to declare as your manner is I have already showed my judgment and reasons in †A treatise of the Minist of the Churches of Engl. p. 83. 84. 85. another treatise Which you may either refute or approue your Ministery according to those particulars or if you can do neither of these yeeld to the truth against which you have so long strugled in vaine In vaine I say for proof whereof marke what followeth next in your Reply Your self confesse that even the Preachers for whome you plead have a wrong ordination from the Prelacy Thus your owne mouth M. Iacob is witnes against your self that al your labour is in vaine Shall I yet make it more plaine vnto you Marke then Your maine defence is from ‡ See before pag 3. and 6. the doctrine of your Church as it is publiquely professed and practised by Lavv. Now your Law admitteth no other ordination but that of the Prelacy And this your self here confesse is vvrong In what case now your Ministery standeth let others judge And take you heed you please not your self any longer in such vnrighteousnes The “ 2 The. 2.12 end thereof is fearefull But besides this estate of your Ministery you confesse here also for the body of your Church that you have a confusion of people that is in deed though you speak it not in word a spirituall Babylon For Babel is in English confusion Thus both for Ministery and people you give the cause having wearied your self in the defence of Babylon all in vaine Which is and will be the fruit of your and all other mens labours in this case So the * Ier. 51.58.64 Scripture hath foretold Your other writing ‡ See the next treatise follovving at the end of this touching the comparing of the condition of a Ministery vvith Mariage long since deliuered was also long since aunswered Vnto which I have not yet received any Reply not so much as words which is the most I look for from you at any time Where next you graunt it is Christs ordinance to haue a true Pastor to a faithfull people hold you there M. Iacob and you overthrow at once all your Churches and Ministery For you neither have proued neither ever will that so you have Begging of the question though you vse it never so often is nothing but words not any proof at all After this you come to that clause of your Article which requireth due administration of the Sacraments according to Christs ordinance First mynd that divers other particulars were related wherein you faile besides those you have here mentioned See them in my ‡ Before Pag 15. 16. 17. former aunswer Now if the corruptions of the
Auricular confession such like greeuous errors And yet notwithstāding dyed constantly for the truthes they saw some for one and some for another as God made manifest vnto them But may we now therefore so professe and practise in these things as they did Or if we should were their ignorance and errors a sufficient defence for vs Yet thus would you beare vs in hand Furthermore tell vs if M. Latimer and others did not forsake the Prelacy and functions they had before time received And Maister Ridley at his death repent that he had ben so earnest for the remnants of Popery in his time retained Besides who knoweth not that when M. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. died Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had them selves nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for And not that onely but were members of that persecuted Church in Queene Maries dayes which was seperated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned in covenaunt by voluntary profession to obey the truth of Christ and to witnes against the abominations of Antichrist As they also did vnto death in the truth they saw though otherwise being but as it were in the twylight of the Gospell they had their wants and errors Yet who is so blind or besotted as not to see that their errors may not be our rules neither can be our warrant but rather that we ought after their example faithfully to stand in and for whatsoever trueth God revealeth vnto vs by his word And that otherwise those holy Martyrs shall rise in iudgment against all such as either withhould the trueth in vnrighteousnesse or in any respect refuse to walke therein Finally seeing GOD hath given vs “ Psal 119.105.128 Gal. 1.8.9 6.16 Deut. 12.32 Rev. 22.18.19.20 his vvord to be the light of our feete and rule of our liues and religion What meane you to lead vs from it to the aberrations of any men whatsoever Should not ‡ Esa 8.19 all people enquier at God or would you have vs go from the liuing to the dead From God and his word to men and their errors This doubtlesse is that wherevnto you would bring vs and whereby you mislead your favorites as will yet further appeare by that which followeth For what say you next Secondly you tell vs and wish it to be noted as we also do That Christes ordinances be of two sortes either written or vnwritten the first necessarie the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is touching faith and the inward opinion onely These say you are writtten The second touching outward orders in the Church and all outward governement and ceremonies These you say are not written but arbitrary at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate Thus you say you hold and practise and thinke no Scripture is against it For aunswer hereof First we aske what Scripture you have for it Secōdly we alledg against it these Scriptures and the like 1 Tim. 3.15 5. chap. 6.13.14 Tit. 1.5 c. Act. 1.3 2.40 c. 6. chap. 14.23 15. chap. 19.9 20.7.17.28 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Ephe. 4.11.12 1 Thes 5.12.13.14 Phil. 1.1.5 Heb. 3.1.2.3 13.17 Iam. 5.14 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 1 Cor. 4.17 5. ◠11. 12. 14. Chap. and 16.1.2 Gal. 6.1.6 2 Thes 3.6.12.14.15 Mat. 18.15.16.17 28.18.19.20 Thirdly let it be observed that your self here graunt and cannot deny but all the outvvard gouernement and ceremonies of your Church are invented and arbitrary at the pleasure of man and not vvritten in the vvord of God Wherevpon it followeth that they are none of Christes and therefore not to be ioyned to at all Fourthly see how neare you are driven that are glad to run back into the Papists tentes where yet you know there is no succour Before you pleaded possession time out of mind now you tell vs of ordināces vnwritten c. Are not these meere popish shiftes even the old worne arguments of Antiquity and Vnvvritten verities so often and so much stood vpon by the Papists Alas that you should plead to be true Christians and yet thus openly take part with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and wil verifie his word That they which receiue not the loue of the trueth 2 Thes 2.10.11.12 that they may be saued he vvill send them strong delusion to beleeue lyes that they may be damned Fifthly you make the ordinances touching outward gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither vvritten at all This is very strange divinity And thus I shew it It is an ordinance not only concerning the inward but also the outward governemēt of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof Is it therefore no matter of faith It concerneth the outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the Church or no Doth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the vvord and hearing of it preached administration and receiuing of the Sacraments are matters cōcerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church Doe they not therefore touch fayth Admonition and excommunication concerne also the outward governement of the Church Do they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this Divinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lords supper being Ceremonies shall with you be no matters of faith at all Yet here you stay not but adde moreover That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church be arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate not vvritten nor certaine c. Wherevpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the Scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or Canterbury be head and Archbishop of the Church of God 2. Whether Iewes onely of the Tribe of Leui may now minister the holy things of God in his Church 3. Whether Christ hath given any giftes and set any Offices in his Church for the Ministery and guidance thereof 4. Whether prayer must be in a knowen or vnknowen toung 5. Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored 6. Whether the Church may excomunitate 7. Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunicatiō be to be regarded 8. Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacraments 9. Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other Ceremonies and Sacrifices of the Lavv be now to be vsed 10. Whether the Heathenish sacrifices and vvorship be to be ioyned withall 11. Whether creame oyle salt spittle crossing and coniuring may be vsed in Baptisme 12. Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to be given to the lay people as you cal them 13. Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the Church 14. Whether the Iewish and the Popish Vestments Fasts and holy dayes are to be observed And a
thousand such like which are all of them concerning the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church By your Diuinitie these and infinite such like are vnvvritten and vncerten but left onely to the pleasure of the Church and Magistrate Yea if it please you the Princes and ciuill Magistrates may them selues be the publique Ministers of the vvord Sacraments and Censures of the Church 2. Any that will may without a calling take vpon him to be a publque Officer in the Church 3. Women may baptise or administer the Lords supper 4. The Iewish Romish or Heathenish Priesthood may be retained 5. Auricular confessiō may be vsed 6. The Keyes of the kingdome of heauen may be appropriated to the Pope of Rome or the Prelate of Canterbury or any other whōsoever 7. The Prelates and their Officials excōmunications do bind in heaven 8. The Apocryphall books and Decretall epistles are Canonicall scriptures 9. The Popes Portuis and the English book of prayer taken out of it are the true and lawfull worship of God 10. The Prelates and Priestes are the true and lawfull Ministers of God 11. Orders Penaunce Extreame vnction Matrimony c. are the Sacramentes of the Church 12. Surplus Cope Cap Tippet Rotchet c. are ornaments of the Ministery Finally all ragges and trumperies of the Romish religion are good and lawfull if it please the Church and Magistrate For why They concerne the outward gouernement orders and ceremonies of the Church And touching them you say Christ hath left no ordinances written certen not perpetuall but left them at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate Is not this strange Diuinity Yet you stay not here neither but as men that have bent their tongues like bowes for lyes you feare not to adde further that when the Church and Magistrate appointeth any ordinances whether these or any other touching the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church we are to account them Christes owne who hath left this liberty to the Church for to vse O shameles mouth O vnchristian hart Can any Papist or Atheist say more Or can any desire a more euident proof then this that you and your Assemblies thus holding professing and practising as here your self affirme cannot in this estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians and Churches Sixtly you do yet further seek shifts and would colour the matter by pretending That the things which concerne outward gouernement and ceremonies are not of the foundation simply But this will help you no more then the other For first we aske are they of the foundation at all though not simply If they be then seing they are not written nor certen nor perpetuall as here by you is affirmed it will follow that neither the whole foundation is written certen or perpetuall neither the Apostles were faithfull and skilfull maister builders in the laying thereof If they be not then why is this word simply added as if you granted they were of the foundation though not simply Secondly we aske whether the outward gouernement and ceremonies ordained by Christ for his Church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation asmuch as the outward gouernemēt and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the Law Or if they be whether they are not as faithfully set downe by Christ as the other were by Moses and as carefully to be observed by vs as the other were by the Iewes or rather more inasmuch as * Heb. 3.2.3 Christ the Sonne is worthy of more glory and honour then Moses the seruant Thirdly we aske what fundamentall poinctes Moses and Aaron with the rest of the Iewes ioyning with them held that ‡ Num. 16. chap. Corach Dathan Abiram and their cōpanions held not differing frō them and erring onely touching the Priesthood and Ministery which concerned the outvvard orders and gouernemēt of the Church Was therefore Corah Dathan Abiram and their companie in that estate the true Israell of God Or were not the other truthes they held by this meanes frustrate and of none effect vnto thē Nay were they not therefore vvholy to be separated from and left to the iudgment of God which overtook them and all that ioyned vnto them Yet was their error onely in matters of order and outvvard gouernement of the Church This may serve to convince your vntrue assertions in this place To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c is aunswered before For conclusion I adde concerning this poinct That all such assemblies and people as hold professe and practise as doth the Church of England these abominations following can not by the word of God be esteemed in such estate truely to holde Christ their Prophet Priest King viz. 1. The confusion of all sortes of people though never so wicked and their seed in the body of the Church 2. The offices and callings of other Archb. and Lordb. then Iesus Christ also of Archdeacons Priestes halfe Priestes Parsons Vicars c. 3. The entrance into the Ministery by another way and other Lords then Iesus Christ 4. The executing of it vnder these strange Lords and leaving it at their pleasure 5. The preaching of the word administration of the Sacraments and governing of the Church by vertue of the offices and callings aforesayd and according to the Popish Canons and constitutions 6. The power of Excommunication in the Prelates alone and their Officialls 7. The confounding of Civill and Ecclesiasticall offices and authority in the Ministers of the Church 8. The forbidding of Mariage at certen seasons 9. The imposing and vsing of stinted deuised Leiturgies The English Portuis taken out of the Popes Latine one word for word saue that a few of the grosest things are left out yet keeping the same frame and order of Collects Psalmes Lessons Pater nosters Pistles Gospels Persicles Respondes c. 10. Appointing holy daies to all Sainctes and Angels to the Virgin Mary Iohn Baptist Mark Luke and twelue Apostles severally 11. togeather with Fastes on the Evens and on Ember dayes Fridayes Saturdayes and Lent 12. Prescribing the Ministers to pray over the dead over the Corne and Grasse at some season of the yeare and over Women at their Churching or purification 13. Enioyning them to marry with the King which they make a sacramentall signe 14. And to Baptise with the signe of the Crosse with Godfathers and Godmothers with questions demaunded of the infant that cannot speake nor vnderstand 15. Giving power to Womē to baptise 16. And ordaining that the other Sacrament of the Lords Supper be celebrated kneeling as when they received their maker and with change of the words of Christes institution taking in steed of them the wordes of the Popes Masse book translated into English c. Finally the vpholding of these and all such amongst them onely by carnall weapons of imprisonment death confiscation of goods bānishmen and such like The Assemblies and people I say which hold professe and practise as doeth this
Church of England the abominations aforesayd concerning the outward order and gouernment of the Church whatsoever trueths they hold besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest King in such constitution of a Church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the vvord of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted Churches of Christ And this is all the question between vs. 7. Lastly let the godly and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not follow vpon your aunswer in this place First that the Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Which is contary to 1 Tim. 3.15 2 Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1 Cor 4.6 Rev. 22.18.19 Secondly that the man of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fully furnished to euery good worke Which is contrary to 2 Tim. 3.17 1 Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.113 Thirdly that Christ himselfe in vvhome the treasures of vvisdome and knovvledge are hid yet was so foolish carelesse and vnfaithfull as having an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it any Offices Lawes and Orders for the due governing and ordering thereof Which is contrary to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Esay 33.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. Rom. 12.3.4.5.6.7.8 Mat. 28.20 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Finally that the Hierachy Worship Sacramēts Traditions Canons and vvhatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outvvard orders and gouernement of the Church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes ovvne Which is contrary to 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 Psa 94.20 119.21.113.128 Rev. 9.1.2.3 14.9 11. O shameles impietie This doubtles is that strange passion and meere desperatenes wherewith you do hereafter vniustly charge vs which we will not here prosecute as it deserveth but exhort you onely to take heed least that vvo come vpon you which is written VVoe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darkenes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter VVo vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esay 5.20.21 H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 2. Excep IN this your defence of your second Exception it pittieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be out Prophet Priest and King if we professe to obey him in his ordinances in no other I ansvvered vve do cōstantly professe so as vve professe so vve practise But to make our profession and practise in this poinct more manifest I noted hovv our state meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and hovv he is to be obeyed viz. That the vvritten vvord ought of necessity to shevv vs our invvard and meer spirituall beleif and obedience As for the outvvard Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to be appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no vvhere forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication tvvo thinges First it is foule vvrong to our Churches and to my vvordes to say as you do That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though external yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangeable by the Scriptures My expresse vvords and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our onely and absolute King and Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitiously depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our state but I say Thus to beleeue and practise simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt aunsvver you deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to be saued vvherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct vvhich in the beginning I charged you vvith That all Churches and Christians here in King Edvvards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tailor c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they vvere lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see hovv malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry and say against you O shamelesse mouth O vnchristian hart vvhich termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practise as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches now Yea betwene your owne lately and ours novv speake out vvhat is it You can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outvvard Church order vvhich vve do But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity vve malitiously they of ignorance vve of plaine obstinacy and hauing a convicted and seared conscience vvhereby they and you might be true Christians for all these errors but vve novv cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against vvhich all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Secondly we now erre not in these poincts of simplicity but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you know euery mans hart and conscience so well If you do then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whome you dare say are convicted in conscience That is much also to affirme But if you do that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and cheifest in authority that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blasphemed in denying him and yet the Assēblies then were not conuicted they still were true Churches
is to seek new shifts and euasions Which yet are to no purpose at all except against your self and your Church For the first you say it is foule wrong to your Churches and to your words to say That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures If it be any wrong it is done by your self Are not these your owne words towching your Churches opinion in your ‡ Pag. 28. former Reply We hold Christs ordinance to be of two sorts written or vnwritten the first necessary the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is towching faith and the inward opinion onely c. the second towching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truly accounted Christs ovvne though particularly deuised by the Churche such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies because they be not simply of the foundation neyther vvritten nor certaine nor perpetuall c. How say you to these words All outvvard gouernement and ceremonies Are they not your owne And is it not your Churches opinion by your owne saying Have I then gathered or written otherwise then your self affirme your Church holdeth If I haue then lay your words and myne together and let them speak for both If not let the Reader iudge whether you haue not done me foule vvrong and if there be any to your CHVRâ—ch whether your self have not committed it Quitte your self of it as well as you can Besides you forget your self wondrously and speak things contradictory For now speaking of your Churches opinion and your owne words you say it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though externall yet are perpetuall things and necessary and vnchangeable by the Scriptures Yet before you told vs your Church holdeth all outvvard gouernement ceremonies orders to be vnvvritten vncertaine not perpetuall but arbitrary to be appointed and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate Eyther there fore to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. are not outward neyther concerning the governement ceremonies nor orders of the Church or els without question you ‡ Mendatem oportet esse memoâ—em forget your self straungely and speak daggers which runne into your owne bowels But to take that which now the euidence of the truth hath wrung froÌ„ you seing to preach to pray to administer Sacraments though externall yet are perpetuall necessary and vnchangeable by the Scriptures you must eyther from the Scriptures show that you haue these according to Christs ordinance or els yeeld that your practise is contrary to the professing of Christ for your Prophet Priest and King to be obeyed in his ovvne ordinance onely and no other And consequently that the AssuÌ„ption of your mayne Reason is false Which is to yeeld the cause And mynd withall that * Eph. 4.11 and 6.18 Rom. 12.7.8 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. c. 1 Tim. 3.15 5.17.8.6.13.14 Mat. 2â— 19.20 1 Pet. 5 1-4 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Christs ordinance is not onely for these things to be done but for the offices wherein and the manner whereby they are to be performed If you wil not beleev me nor the Scriptures alledged yet heare your owne men what they teach in this poynt Mr. Cartvvright saith “ T. C. first Rep. pag. 83 God hath not onely ordeyned that the vvord should be preached but hath ordeined also in vvhat order and by vvhom it should be preached And againe speaking of the Iewes Church he saith as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any strange doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function then vvas instituted by God The Admonitions Counterpoyson Demonstration and many other your writings affirme the same both for preaching and Sacraments and other points of the outward order and governemeÌ„t of the Church And now I remember my self your self have confessed it ‡ Pag. 19 before in playne termes when you graunt it is Christs ordinance to have a true Pastor to a faithfull people and would have vs beleev that it is false to say you preach in straunge functions or have not the Sacraments duly ministred etc. I hope therefore in your next we shal have proof not that you have Preaching Prayer Sacraments which we know the Papists also and Anabaptists haue but that you have them in those offices and after that maner which Christ hath ordeined Now where you say your expresse vvords and Churches meaning is that Any reasonable kind of Church gouernement rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor vvritten in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be your onely and absolute King Prophet neuertheles For answer hereof besides that already brought I will say no more to this Popish assertion but onely inferre herevpon as followeth But the Church-governement rites and orders which Christ in his Ttestament hath ordeyned vnchangeably are a reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement rites and orders Therefore these so vnchangeably ordeined by Christ yet by your owne expresse words and your Churches meaning are arbitrary and chaÌ„geable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet forsooth Christ is still your onely and absolute King and Prophet neuertheles Let vs now see Mr. Iacob what aunswer you will make herevnto without sclandering cavilling and malitious depraving The second note in your explication is that you say you justifie not the aforesayd opinion of your State But how then do your book and the title of it agree Nay how do your selfe and that title agree when you wil not defend that which is the very point of the coÌ„trouersie between your Churches and vs Was there euer a more absurd defence heard of But now leaving your Church in the briers yet speak for your self How do you Mr. Iacob hold Christ your Prophet Priest and King when seeing your Church to erre in so many and so waightie pointes and that so as you can not iustifie yet you haue not all this time admonished them and by due order either brought them to repentance or left them as obstinate in sinne and wilfully disobeying the voice of Christ Where you say that thus to beleev and practise as your Church doth simply destroyeth no mans saluatioÌ„ in Christ you take that for graunted which you should proue Besides that the Papists Anabaptists and others may say as much for other outward things among them Yea no doubt but Ieroboam him self and his Priests and people said likewise that for IerusaleÌ„ to be the place and the sonnes of Aaron the Priestes and such like these were outward things and not to obserue them or to beleev otherwise then Iudah did concerning them simply destroied no mans saluation in Christ Was this therefore a sound defence of their apostasie Or might any vnder such pretence have continued and joined with them therein Of your second generall point and so of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I haue spoken
against it the estate of such to be damnable It is high time then for you M. Iacob and for D. B. who made the preface to your book and for all such whose consciences are convicted of the Antichristianitie of your Prelates and the rest of your abominations as divers times in this book your self accknowledge it is high time I say for you and all such to be warned by Corahs destruction And we now have as good warrant by your owne graunt to separate from you and all such as the Israelites had from Corah and his companie Except peradventure you thinke the Ministerie and ordinances of Christ to be of lesse moment then those of Moses or Christ the Sonne to be worthy lesse honour then Moses the servant But see more yet hereof in the 6. Reason following After this you turne back to somewhat handled in the entrance of this Exception Thus you runne in and out a man cannot tell where to have you For the point you speak of I leave it to the Reader to iudge comparing your writing and mine togeather whether I have not iustly charged you for going about to iustifie your estate by the example of Cranmer Ridley c. Now I am glad to see you acknowledge the matters controverted betweene vs to be your errours For by this it followeth that you see the contrarie truth which discovereth these to be errours And then your self I trust will not denie but that you are bound vtterlie to forsake these and to walke in the truth revealed vnto you vnles you had rather erre with Antichrist to destruction then follow Christ to salvation But you trust it is sound to iustifie by the example of the Martyrs that these corruptions abolish not you from Christ as theirs did not them Nay Mr. Iacob it is very vnsound for you or any the like to reason thus For besides the many differences betwene you and the Martyrs alreadie declared tell me your self if the Hussites so called should at this day reason after this manner viz. Although we retaine the Masse transubstantiation seven Sacraments Auricular confession and such like yet these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ any more then they did Iohn Hus and the other Martyrs that held and vsed them If I say they should now reason thus for themselves would not your self say their reason were vnsound But further if the Martyrs you speak of had seen these things to be errors and continewed in them pursued those that reproved them and against the knowen truth sought to have dawbed vp their erroneous building as you Mr. Iacob and the like among you do at this day we could not then have so esteemed them as now we do This therefore will help you nothing at all We have better hope in this respect of such in England as to this day have not discerned the Antichristian abominations among you then of you and the like strugling Pharisees for whome we feare it will be harder in the day of iudgment then for them At length you come to look at my severall aūswers To look at them I say For finding them all to heavie to lift you leave them as you found them that is firme and strong against your Churches estate For the first you would in it deceaue the Reader thus In your former Replie to this Exception you said * Pag. 28. you held Christs ordinances to be of two sorts written or vnvvritten the first necessary the second arbitrary c. and that you thought no Scripture vvas against this but rather for it In my aunswer herevnto first I asked ‡ Pag. 30. vvhat Scripture you had for this that is for this opinion of yours touching Christs ordinances Now so besides that you bring no Scripture for it you would make the Reader beleev that I asked for Scriptures to approve those orders vvhich you expresly called errors But who seeth not that I demaunded Scripture for that opinion of your Church against which you were perswaded there was not any And how then will those two stand together vnles you would have vs thinke you are so sottish as to beleeve there is no Scriptures against errors The like follie and evill dealing you shew againe in your Reply to the second When you said you thought no Scripture vvas against your foresayd opinion of Christs ordinances but rather for it was it not meet that of so many as are against it I should at least mention some Now it had ben your part either to have renoūced that false opinion with acknowledgment that the Scripture is against it or els to have aunswered the Scriptures by me alleadged But I easily beleev they load you and are to heavie for you to beare or withstand I◠your Reply to the third let all men iudge if you deale not exceeding vnconscionably Are not these your owne words which you vse in your first Reply to this Exceptio◠‡ Before in pag. 28. This we generally professe and practise We hold Christs ordināces to be of two sorts Such we hold all outward governement and ceremonies to be Thus we hold and thus we practise c. When you do so often say We professe We hold We practise Will not the Reader vnderstand your self to be one with the rest that do so hold professe and practise Againe when you say Thus we practise is it your meaning that the State doth practise thus but not your self How is it then that you preach by vertue of your Priesthood receyued from the Prelates that you are silent at their pleasure that you appeare before them at their Courts and appoyntment that you administer and receive the Sacraments with them according to their book c. Or if your meaning be in these words thus we practise to include your self with the rest why should we not also take you to be included in the other when you say thus we hold thus we professe c. Would you have vs think that in these things your iudgement is one and your practtse another Fy of such halting Howsoeuer you blind the eyes of men be sure God is not mocked He seeth and will bring vpon you that wretched hypocrisy if you still persist Further it is to be mynded that now you disclayme your Churches opinion towching Christs ordinances and consequently towching his Prophecy Priesthood Kingdome as he is there receyved Why can you not then endure that we should do likewise Or how is it that you have pleaded for it all this tyme and now leave it without help when it needeth most But by this is evident that your Churches estate is a ‡ Mat. 12.25 Kingdome divided against it self and therefore ruinous not like long to endure The state holdeth one thing you another a third sort agrees with neither Babylon †Rev. 16.19 the great city when it is readie to fall shall be devided in three parts To conclude by this opinion and practise you make your state to stand
in such case as Ieroboams was who altered but the outward ordinances of the Church as taking them to be things arbitrary at the pleasure of man Some of them I doubt not wil think you do them foule iniurie And if anie be done vnto you it is done by your self I say no more In the fourth likewise who is it of your owne Church that will not think you offer yet more iniurie both to the State and your self To the State in that you make them maintainers of Popish shifts To your self in that thus you bewray you are at a Non plus and yet yeeld not to the truth Did not your self in your first Replie vse these as good and soūd reasons And now they are convinced to be Popish have not a word to speak in defence of them but put vs over to the State for an aūswer Babell is sore wounded when all her best Physitians do thus give her over For the fift you referre vs to the first point of your explication before Which is aunswered For the sixt you referre vs to the second Which also is aunswered Neither is there any thing of waight in either of the places whither you send vs for aunswer of the particulars here conteined Let others mind if you will not what I said in the fifth and sixth aunswer before and see if your explications have any thing against them to any purpose The seventh you confesse to be against the state of your Church This I wish the Reader to marke And then having minded what I aunswered in the * pag. 34 seaventh place let him consider how wofull the estate of your Church is But now M. Iacob why defēd you not your Church seeing this is against the verie state of it by your owne confessiō Is not your book called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Why do you not then performe what the title of your book doth promise A worthie Champion sure you are to defend a Church that leave it thus in extream miserie without anie succour at all At first you seemed as if you would strike all downe afore you in defence of your Churches and Ministerie Now lo you can be content to leave them on the plaine field to shift for themselves so your self may have hope to scape by running away Before you told vs of the defence of your Churches Now you think it inough to say It is against the state of our Church and not against me Yet tell vs Mr. Iacob are you not a member of that Church And is not that then which is against the state of your Church also against you Otherwise it must needs be that your Church hath a strange estate or that you are a straunge member thereof Can the hand or eye say I am not of the bodie Or that which is against the state of the bodie yet is not against me Yet such is your aunswer as sencelesse as absurd Besides that thus whiles you think to pull your owne neck out of the collar you plunge both your self and your Church deeper in And note withall Howsoever you and such like disagree from the state of your Church in anie thing yet in this you can all agree well ynough to conspire against Christ and against his Church But so it hath ben of old Manasseh * Esa 9.20 21. and Ephraim though they were each against other were both against Iudah The Pharises and Sadducees though adversaries one to another yet ‡ Mat. 2◠15.23 Act. 5.17 handed togeather both of them against the Lord Iesus Hitherto of the seaven particulars I obiected Which all of them remaine vntaken away And thus far of the second exception and your Replies against it In which I have staied the longer because the discussing hereof will more plainelie and without all question end the controversie between vs. Chap. 6. The third Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforseid Fr. Iohnson Thirdly shew by Scripture how the 36. Article of your doctrine and book alledged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The wordes of the Article are these as followeth The Book of consecration of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons doth conteine all things necessary to such consecration and ordering neither hath it any thing that of it self is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoever are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that book we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Also how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That the Apocrypha books and Homilies are enioined to be read in the Church by the Ministers diligently and distinctly As may be seen in Art 6 and 35. of that doctrine and book aforesaid H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocrypha bookes and Homilies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the vvhole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I aunsvver you should have said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Els the Argument follovveth not But then vve denie flatly the Antecedent or first part of the Reason But your Reason you vvill say shall goe as you have put it Then marke these reasons even as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is vvhite of his teeth therefore he is a vvhite man A Svvanne is black of his bill Fr. Io. therefore a Svvann is black * Note that Mr. Iacob hath added this since he received aunswer to the former It was not in the copy before Such also are almost all his notes in the Margent and some alteration in his Replies specially in his first Reply to the Seaventh Reason following Let the Reader observe this dealing My Brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a vvodden legge therefore my brother is no true man Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Excep VVHat the third Exception is you see Have you now as was before required of you shewed these things by the Scriptures Not at all First then marke that although wee call neuer so much for proof and evidence from the Scripture yet you neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shifts and deuices As if our consciences were to be built vpō your fancies and not vpō the written word of God But what do you say to our demaund First you tell vs these thinges do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Next you graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as black doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this your similitudes doe import Where you alledge That these things destroy not true Christianity we answer that euen that Hierarchy worship cōstitution and gouernement which you professe and practise as appeareth
of them But seeing we are here constreyned vnto it by your slie and colourable answer therefore can we not but doe it for the clearer manifestation of the trueth and better discouering of your deceipt In which respects we entreat the Reader to take in good part and duely to weigh the rehearsall following Antichristian abominations yet reteyned in England 1. The coÌ„fusion of all sorts of people in the body of the Church even the most profane and their seed being members thereof 2. The retaining and vsing in their publique worship the Apocrypha books which have in theÌ„ much error vntruth blasphemie Magick contradiction to the Canonicall Scriptures 3. Their stinted prayers and Leiturgie taken out of the Masse Book with the same order of Psalmes Lessons Collects Pater nosters Epistles Gospels Versicles Respondes c. 4. The forbidding of Marriage in Lent Advent Ember daies Rogation week c. Which the Apostle calleth a Doctrine of divels 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 5. Forbidding of meats as of flesh to be eateÌ„ in Lent Ember daies Saints Evens Frydayes and Saturdayes throughout the yeare Another doctrine of divels noted in the scripture aforesaid 1 Tim. 4.1.3 6. The oath ex officio in the Ecclesiasticall courts making men sweare to accuse themselves 7. Their Pontificall or booke of consecrating Bishops and of ordeining Priests and Deacons taken out of the Popes Pontifical Antichrist corruptions yet had in the Church of England 8. Their intolerable abuse of the word of God therein 9. Their making and being made Priests with blasphemie the Prelates saying to everie one of them whom they make Priests Receiue the holy Ghost vvhose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven c. And they that are made Priests then humbly kneeling vpon their knees at the Prelates feet 10. Their confounding of civil and Ecclesiastical offices and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall persons 11. The offices callings of Archbishops 12. Lord-Bishops 13. Suffraganes 14. Priests 15. Half Priestes or Deacons as they call them 16. Subdeacons 17. Archdeacons 18. Parsons 19. Vicars 20. Curates 21. Vagrant and Mercenary Preachers 22. Church-wardens 23. Chauncellors to the Prelates 24. Deanes 25. Subdeanes 26. Prebendaries 27. Canons and Peticanons 28. Chaunters and Virgerers 29. Epistlers and Gosplers 30. Queristers men and boyes 31. Organ-players and blowers 32. Clerks and Sertous 33. Chapleines and House-priests 34. Doctors of Divinitie 35. Bachelours of Diuinitie 36. Doctors of the Arches 37. Proctours in the Prelates courtes 38. Commissaries 39. Officials 40. Registers 41. Summoners with the rest of that Antichristian and viperous generation 42. Their Ministration of the Word Sacraments Church-governement by vertue of the officer aforesaid 43. The titles of Primate Metropolitane Lords grace Lordship c. ascribed to the Prelates 44. The inferior Prelates swearing obedience to the MetropolitaÌ„ Seas of Canterbury and York 45. The inferiour Ministers wheÌ„ they enter into the Ministerie promising obedience to the Prelates their Ordinaries and wheÌ„ they are inducted to Benefices confirming it with their oath of Canonicall obedience 46. The preseÌ„tatioÌ„ of the Priests and Deacons to the Prelate by the Archdeacon when they are made Ministers 47. Their receiving of Orders at the hands of the Prelates or their Suffraganes 48. The Prelates Confirmation or Bishoping of childreÌ„ to assure them of Gods favour by a signe of mans devising Which is to malte a new Sacrament 49. The Crosse in Baptisme of like nature 50. The hallowed Font. 51. Questions at Baptisme to the infants that can neyther speak nor vnderstand 52. Godfathers Godmothers Their promising that the child doth beleev forsake the Divell and all his workes c. 53. Womens baptising of childreÌ„ Which mainteyneth that heresy That the Children are damned which dy vnbaptised 54. Their houssing of the sicke ministring the Communion to one alone 55. Their giuing it for two pence to all commers 56. Their ministering of it not with the words of Christs institution but with other taken out of the Popes Portuis 57. The receiving of it kneeling Which teacheth still to make it an Idoll and nourisheth that popish heresy of worshipping it receiving their maker c. 58. The King in mariage making it a SacrameÌ„tall signe mariage an Ecclesiasticall action thereby nourishing the Popish heresy that Matrimony is a Sacrament 59. Their Churching or purifying of women Which sauoreth of Iudaisme 60. The standing at the Gospell reading The putting of the cap and making a legge when the word Iesus is read 61. Their Saints Angels and Apostles dayes With their fasts and prescript service 62. The Gang-week praying then over the corne and grasse c. 63. Their praying over the dead at buriall So nourishing the Popish error of prayer for the dead 64. Buriall and the solemnizatioÌ„ of mariage c. made part of the Ministers duty 65. Their absolving the dead dying excommunicate before they can have as they call it Christian-buriall 66. The ring of peales at burials 67. Beadmen at burials and hyred Mourners in mourning apparell 68. The hanging of Churches and heerses with black to help forward theyr popish show off mourning at burials 69. The Idol Temples retayned vsed for the worship of God 70. The popish vestments as Rotchet Square-cappe Tippet Sâ—rplus in Parish-Churches and Coap in Cathedrall 71. The visitations of theyr Lord-Bishops and Archdeacons 72. The Court of Facultyes From wâ—eace are had dispensations Licences Tolerations c. 73 Dispensations to eat flesh at theyr tymes forbidden Which dispeÌ„satioÌ„s also haue this clause sana conscientia that is with a safe conscience plainely shewing that they make it a matter of conscience 74. DispeÌ„satioÌ„s likewise to marty in theyr tymes forbidden 75. Licences from the Prelates to marry in places exempt By meanes of which dispensations aÌ„d Licences is mainteyned that wicked practise that many are maryed without their Parents knowledge or consent Yea many ofteÌ„ stollen froÌ„ theyr frends and so marryed 76. Dispensations for boyes and ignorant fooles to haue Benefices and charge of soules 77. Dispensations for Non-residents 78. And plurality of benefices As the having of two three fower or mo even tot quot as many as a man will haue and can get 79. Patronages of and presentations to Benefices with buying and selling of advowsons 80. Theyr Iustitutions Inductions Prories c. 81. The Prelates Chauncelours CoÌ„missaryes Officials courts c. 82. Their power to excommunicate alone and likewise to absolve 83. Theyr Penance in a white sheet 84. Theyr commutation of Penance and absolving one man for another 85. Theyr Suspensions Deprivations Degradations c. 86. The Prelates Lordly dominion revenewes and retinew 87. The Priests maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. 88. The Popes accursed Canon Law 89. And the Prelates like Articles Canons Injunctions c. from tyme to tyme newly devised and published for the Lawes ruling of theyr Church according vnto them 90. The Church-wardens oath to present to the Prelates and theyr Courts all
and ceremonies onely and no more doth abolish vs from Christ and that this can not stand togeather with true faith like as the Pagans idolatrie against the First commaundement cannot Then I deny it vtterly you haue no proofe in the world for it And this inwrappeth Maister Cranmer Ridley c. in the same course Your excuse here in Pag. 67. That Cranmer Ridley c. forsooke all the corruptions they saw This belongeth to many Thousands in England now no lesse then to them Yea surely there are infinite that know not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignoraunt of redēption by Christ c. Yea your self Maister Iohnson though a man of learning yea knowing our corruptions and misliking them a long time before you forsooke vs yet I think you stood not abolished from Christ all that while I pray be so good to poore men as you may yea to vs now also aswel as to your self and them in those times Where you say in Pag. 67. That since that time we are convicted by the Scriptures If you meane some fevve that here and there you could pick out and do sinne still speake to them threaten them throvv out your damnatory sentence against them But smite not all whosoever comes neare you Beware how you iudge least you be iudged The heart belongeth to God therefore censure not every mans conscience too hastily 4 Fourthly you vvould prove in your Third Exception before noted Pag. 67. That both the breach of the first cōmaundment and of the Second also is forbidden I have told you before Pag. 69. 70. hovv it is true and hovv not Nothing at all to serue your turne 2 Cor. 6.14 That vvhich you say Pag. 67. touching your first Scripture 2 Cor. 6.14 c. in that sence and manner as I sayd it is true and not othervvise That vvhich of your Second Scripture Ezek. 43.8 Pag. Ibid. you say VVho seeth not but it speaketh directly of the breach of the Second Cōmaundement ioyning together in the worship of the true God their inventions with Gods ordinances Ezec. 43 8◠I say it is most manifest that he speaketh not of the breach of the Second cōmandment onely but also of the first wherin men haue their inventiōs also The Prophet sheweth vers 4. and 7. That God returned to his Temple againe vvhence he vvas departed for the abominable idolatries that had ben there cōmitted before to shevv that he vvould restore Ierusalem and the Temple and vvorship of God againe He meaneth this literally of the returning of the Iewes after Babylons captiuity and of the reedifying of the Temple and the appointing againe of Gods holy vvorship there Also spiritually he may meane the erecting of the Christian Church vvhen they should not fall to such impieties as the Ievves had done novv in that time before for the vvhich he had departed away from them Nowe if we aske what were those Idolatours in Ierusalem and in the Temple before Ezekiels time for the whiche the Lord forsooke them it is manifest in Ahas in Manasses Amon and in the Kings after Iosiah That the Iewes idolatrie was verie Heathenish not onely against the Second but against the First commandment also in ioyning the Heathen gods with the true God of Israell in their Diuine seruice and Worship Therefore this place of Ezekiell is as I say not of the breach of the Second commandement onely simplie as our church corruptions are but ioinctlie touching the breach of the First also The very same is that your third scripture pag. 67. 2 Kings 17.33.34.40.41 of the Samaritans Idolatrie wherein because you are large 2 King 17. I vvill deferre to explaine it till your Sixt Reason follovving vvhere is a proper place for it Lastlie in pag. 68. you agrauate the breach of the Second Commandment as being spirituall whordome c. But I would haue you to knovv Things may be mismatched to cruelly asvvell as too gently There is a sinne both vvayes vvhen things are not called by their proper and right names It is true in some sence euery breach of the Secōd cōmandment is spiritual vvhordome as euery vvanton vvord euery light gesture countenance euery immodest thought in a Woman is Adulterie yet vvho so shall angerlie continuallie so call a Woman vvhore harlot or bande that but thinketh or looketh or speaketh too vainly shall doe her great vvrong incurre the iust daūger of lavv Neither can she nor ought shee in such case be diuorced as an Adulteresse ought And thus it appeareth true still that you sinne against the Third Commaundement in misapplying of Scriptures In the ende in pag. 69. vvhere you say To the proofe of your Assumption I answere never a word which most of all required answere This I tell you that it is your fancie and not my meaning heere to ansvver to your Proposition first and then to your Assumptiō to say nothing Nay if you had not dreamed you might easily haue perceived that all my first words viz. where I say your speach here is vnproper c. are bent directly against your Assumptiō the proof thereof although at this time I expressed not those termes Secondly I shevv that your scriptures applyed to proue the Proposition are altogither vnfitt and intollerably abused if you meane them in that sence as your Assumption must be meant that is to say as they touch vs. This a verie childe might haue seene Maister Iohnson So that your marginall scoffe at my sound and scholler-like dealing doeth light on your self and bewrayeth eyther your deepe skil or your ouerflowing charitie As for the rest that I should iustifie our corruption it is no part of my minde neither belongs it to our present cause so to doe Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 1. Reason IN deed you are the people that haue skill and wisdome must dy with you Yet let vs a litle examine this your wise handling of the matter Being taken here with manifest contradiction you say you spake the one in the person of your whole Church and State the other in your owne If it were so yet thus you yeeld both that there is contradiction in your speach and that in stead of defending your Church you are driuen your self to contradict it And who can give the cause more cunningly Even your selfe Mr Iacob are drawen now at length to confesse you do the same thing we do that is contradict the assertion of your Church towching Christs ordinances Now albeit this were ynough to show the simplicity and weaknes of your defence yet still I vrge the contradiction to be yours And I proue it because in the †Pag. 28. first place your words are we hold we practise c. and in the “ latter we thinck vve shevved c. For who will otherwise iudge * Pag. 61. but this word We includeth your self for one among the rest
here confessed them to be * Pag. 37. errors and †Pag. â—1 69 orders of Antichrist ‡ Pa. 70.71 sinnes against the Second commaundement c. Every sinne you know doth of it self and of it owne nature make subject to the curse Deut. 27.26 Psal 119.21 Rom. 6.23 So if there were no other thing yet even by your owne confession the curse of God hangeth ouer your heads And how wofull then is your estate Mynd withall that when your self can not deny but your corruptions are of Antichrist and it is certayne that Antichrists Church even through the corruptions of their constitution is abolished from being Christs you had need cleare this poynt well or els you leaue your Church in a miserable taking euen in this behalf Help it now if you can Your stale obiection and abuse of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs is aunswered before Pag. 8. 40. 41. That the speach is both true and proper when I say you ioyne Christ and Antichrist together I need not further prove seing your self can not deny but all the abominations of Antichrist before rehearsed with many mo Pag. 63. c. are still retayned in your Church And tell me Mr Iacob May not I aswell say you haue not Christ but some truths of Christ as you say you haue not Antichrist but some corruptions of Antichrist Or if I say so will you then graunt that the speach is proper Your comparison of a white Swan with a black bill I perceyve you can not defend Therefore you leave it and betake your self to another of a maymed man vvith a vvoodden legg Which yet fitteth not your estate neyther as may be seen before Pag. 59. 61. You must put the case of a deformed boast vvith the likenes of a mans face womans heare lyons teeth Rev. 9 7-2 horses body c. And then may all see plainely that although this have the likenes of some parts of a man yet it is not therefore a true maÌ„ but a monstrous beast notwithstanding Yea although you ioyne your dead woodden legge to the foresayd living parts thereof yet still it is no other but as it was even a very beast That it liveth will nothing help you for beasts have their life aswell as men haue theirs And you will not deny I suppose but Antichrist the man of sinne hath now lived and â—aged as a fierce and cruell beast by the space of many hundred yeares 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 13.11 one after another If your comparison then be meant of this beastly man as to pleasure you withall I will not deny but it may very well yet still your woodden leg will help it to go for no other but as it is a maÌ„ of sinne and a monstrous beast Next you come to the Scriptures by which I proved the Proposition and pretend as if you would make a direct aunswer and yet in deed do nothing lesse Aunswer me therefore in your next Whether do those Scriptures proue the Proposition or not If they do why do you not graunt it If they do not why do you not say so and shew it And tell we why you handle them as if they had ben brought to prove the Assumption and yet in deed leave vntowched that which was brought for the proof thereof Such ignorant and double dealing yll beseemeth a man professing so deep skill and syncerity as you do Yet least you please your self therein any longer I will note the folly and falsehood of your aunswer in the particulars 1. To the first you say you neuer denyed it to be true after a sort Now that which there I sayd was this ‡ Pag. 66. that these Scriptures forbid ioyning to Antichristian Idolatry and that false worship vvhich breaketh the second commaundement And such even †Pag. 70. here you graunt your Church corruptions to be So by your owne confession these Scriptures forbid to joyne vnto them Expound your after a sort as you please and alter my words after your manner as you think good All will not help Sure I am you do thus giue the cause For those Scriptures forbid not to ioyne to the true worship and Churches of God And all your minesing speaches when you say they forbid the breach of the Second commaundement but not principally directly of purpose c. what are they but so many testimonyes of your miserable halting and deceitfull dealing For if it were as you say were it not ynough to make you detest those sinnes and never to partake with them any more Hath not God to the Second coÌ„maundement annexed this severe threatning ‡ Exod. 20.5 I aâ—ielours God vvill visit this iniquity c. Doubtles God foresaw how the breach of this coÌ„maundement would be finally regarded and lessened among men professing the true God and therefore here annexed the threatning after the SecoÌ„d not after the First going before And tell me further if you could not thâ—â— plead for the popish Orders confession to Priests extreme Vnction prayer in an vnknovven toungue Purgatory c. To end this point then I say againe as I have shewed †pag. 67. 68 alreadie that the immediate purpose of “ Ezec. 43.8 2 King 17.32 c. two of these places is a-against the false worship which breaketh the SecoÌ„d coÌ„maundement proving such worship and worshippers to be reiected of God And the reasons vsed in the * 2 Cor. 6.14 c. third Scripture are aswell against the breach of the SecoÌ„d as the First convincing every such estate against whether commaundement soever it be to be in that case as cannot stand and accord with Christ and his Church The Scripture it self and the arguments deduced from thence in my former aunswer are so evident as I need not bring any further proof vnles you brought other maner Reply against them then yet you do 2. For the second you bid me make much of it Therefore to pleasure you I meane so to do To begin withall here you say directlie you never thought other but that your Church corruptions are against the Second coÌ„maundement And did you never think other in deed How is it then that you plead for your Churches retaining and practising of them yea holding of them to be Christs owne that is holding the transgressions of the Second commaundement to be Christs ordinances More speciallie for your owne part how is it that you were made Deacon or Priest of the Prelates Or being made in ignorance as many be that yet knowing these things since you will still execute those offices vnder them And submit to their Iniunctions Canons Articles c. Yea even to this day partake with all the Antichistian filth and corruption of your Church which you know to be against the Law of God Have you for gotten or do you not regard the ‡ Eâ—o 20.5 heavy sentence anâ—ered to the Second coÌ„maundement Or is it onely against some and not
whither you refer vs for it though there the Reader shall finde you aunswer not the severall Scriptures here alledged for proof of it In the meane time let this be noted that here againe you graunt your Church corruptions are against the Second commaundement Therefore may none that feare God and will be assured to escape his wrath bow downe vnto them Exod. 20.5.6 Deut. 5.9.10 and 6.10.11 and 28.15.16 c. Psal 106.29 Next where I speak of your breach of the second coÌ„maundement as being spirituall whoredome you except against it as if I mismatched things otherwise then they are in deed But how can that be seing the Scriptures ‡ Pag. 68. there alledged prove that which I said Or will you say your case is not spirituall whoredome which God in that commaundement hath straitlie forbidden and severelie threatned to punish This then being so it is your self Mr Iacob that mismatch things otherwise then in deed they are For your case is not as you would pretend by your similitude like a wanton word a light gesture or contenaunce or an immodest thought of a woman But I will tell you what it is like Even as when a woman vnfaithfull to her husband is found to commit filthynes with other men after whom she goeth a whoring Now such a one whatsoever smooth speach countenance or excuse she pretend yet is in deed an whore and for this cause to be divorced That your case is such your going a whoring after Antichrist whose ordinances Hierarchie worship confusion c. are retained among you testifies to your faces Fitly therefore do we applie the Scriptures against you and your selves it is that sinne against the Third commaundement in misapplying of them as I shewed sufficientlie in my former answer against which you can say nothing To the proof of the Assumption you yeeld now at length Neither can I otherwise thinke of your aunswer seing I have proved my speach to be proper and the Scriptures fitly alledged and you refuse to iustify your owne Articles and estate Yet least you should againe cavill and delude the Reader I aske you Have I not concluded the question in a Syllogisme Why then do you not aunswer directlie to some part of it Have I not proved the Proposition by Scripture and the Assumption by your owne Writings and practise The Conclusion then must needs be true vnles one of the Propositions could be disproved which you are so far from as you never go about to do it The marginall note then is no scoffe but a iust reproof of your ignorance which in deed deserveth much more But I spare you and leave it to others to iudge whether you do any thing els in all you say but winde in and out to hide the truth and blinde the Reader if you could The Scriptures which I alledged for proof of the Proposition you handle as if I had brought them for proof of the Assumption Who is it now think you that is in a dreame Agayne your owne Books profession and practise by which I proved the Assumption you towch not at all Nay you say plainely it is no part of your mynd to iustify them Whether it be for that you see they can not possibly be iustifyed or because you want skill in your self or charity towards your Church for the doing of it let others inquire Sure I am that thus you give the cause For this belongs directly vnto it as all may see that have any vnderstanding and your self I suppose will not deny when you have called your wits a litle better togeather Chap. 8. The second Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THat which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine that cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proved That which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God by the precepts of Man that appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in EnglaÌ„d appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Articles of the book alledged and by their other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Common prayer their Holy dayes Fasting dayes Censures Hierarchy c. All which are the precepts of men and authorised by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. IACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third Exception Pag 57. 2. Also note I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were then of the true visible ♣ Marke his open contrariety with hiÌ„self granting this in Reas 6 Church with vvhom Christ and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometimes ioyne and communicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably FR. Io. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Reason THe Reason is as you see it propounded before Nâ—w what propositioÌ„ do you deny Not any at all What defence then bring you of your book of Common prayer and the particulars therein of your books of Articles and Iniunctions of your Prelacy and other Ministery receyved froÌ„ then according to your popish Pontificall of your Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none neyther What then do you answer Not a word but that you refer vs to your answer before in the last Exception whither also we refer the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for answer of any proposition of this argument or for defence of your worship Prelacy Ministery and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answer Have you not may we thinke good proof for your present estate and Church-constitution which thus leave it altogeather without defence even when it most needeth and as it were beggeth your help and succor if you could affoard it any Yet now having no aunswer to any part of the Argument you bid vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alledged is verifyed of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometyme ioine and communicate This therefore you say maketh for you and against vs most notably 1 But first tell vs if ‡ As that of Lev. 10.1.2.3 Num. 16 1.
as †The Sixe waterpots of the Iewishe purifyings Iohn 2.6 Therefore your Replies here are most vaine and false Lastlie in pag. 84. you will not confesse your contrarietie that is to say betweene this your Second Reason and certen wordes in your Sixt Reason But the greater is your sinne to doe euill and defende it too Here in this Reason pag. 82. you would haue this scripture Mat. 15. to be meant against such vaine worshippers that they become heereby no true Church Or els what doe you vrge it against vs But in your Sixt Reason following you say That the Iewes euen nowe when these words were applyed to them were the true worshippers of God Are not these contrarie I pray you then reconcile them Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the. 2. Reason VVHhatsoeuer you brought against the last Exception before is there answered Pag. 58. 59. 60. 61. Your woodden leg will not make your Reply go for currant neyther can your glassy eye see how to take 〈◊〉 my aunswer The vanitie of this comparison of yours applied to your estate I have already discovered And for Mr Cranmer Ridley c. I have aunswered before Pag. 40. 41. 59. 60. Divers of the differences there noted may likewise serve for * Yet if it be still with Geneva as you say the thing as of very yll note If it be not so note M. Iacob Geneva Besides that the constitution of that Church is in the way of Christ whereas yours is in the apostasy of Antichrist And so there is no comparing of your estate and theirs togeather although in some things it may be they walke corruptly and you in other with some show of piety Your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Iacob would aswell help the Iewes to have confuted the Prophet Esay and our Saviour Christ as it doth you For I pray you did the doctrine and Law of their Church appoint all Gods vvorship by mens precepts or yet the chiefest part of it Or had it ben of waight if they had thus aunswered Christ and his Prophets as you do here Shall I now say you play the ignorant Sophister yea and the false Sophister too And where you say next Your Preaching Sacraments Prayers c. are not appointed by mens precepts Is not this also a manifest vntruth Let your Offices of Ministery by vertue of which these are administred your Prelates silencing of you at their pleasure your Iniunctions Canons Articles Common prayer book according to which you are appointed and bound to administer all your holy things Let these I say speak indifferently between vs. Yea let your owne men speak and they will testify against you In the second Admonition to the Parliament they affirme †2 Admon pag. 6. That although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preachers may vvithout great dāger of the Lavves vtter all the truth comprised in the book of God It is so circunscribed and vvrapt vvithin the cōpasse of Statutes Penalties Iniunctions Articles Canons c. Also that these may not be offended against but vvith more daunger then to offend against the Bible Yea that the Bible must have no further scope then by these it is assigned Adde herevnto your Book of common prayer by which you are enioyned how to administer your Sacraments what to pray when to exhort c. Which likewise you may not break but with more danger then to offend against the Bible as in the Admonition aforesaid is testifyed Mynd also that your Church is enioined in the service of God publikly to read the Apocrypha books which have errors fables magik blasphemy c. and to leave altogeather vnread some parts of the Canonicall Scripture as being you say least edifying might best be spared as the book of Canticles and other parts of the Old Testament And in the New also part of the first Chapter of Mathevv and of the 3. of Luke and almost the whole Book of the Revelation Of which the Spirit of God saith expressely Blessed is he that readeth Rev. 1.3 and they that heare the vvords of this Prophecy c. For proof hereof see the Kalender and Rubrick in your book of Commō Prayer for the order of reading the Scripture in your Church throughout the yeare Speak now your self Mr. Iacob Is it not cleare that your Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. are appointed by mens precepts Vnles you will say Your Iniunctions Canons Articles Statutes Common prayer book c. be not the precepts of men As it may be you will not stick much at it if you can colour the matter with a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or like deceit So Christian a Disputer and conscionable you are Againe Is the Papists vvhole vvorship or the chiefest part of it otherwise by the precepts of men then yours is It may be you will take pepper in the nose that I aske you this For I perceive your little pacyence is already much moved You shall not therefore heare it of me because I would not put you out of all quyet I will but tell you what your owne men say of it at whose hands I doubt not but you will take it better Thus then they say speaking of your estate * 2 Admon pag. 7. He that could not abide straunge fyer in the old Lavv but burnt them that vsed it vvhat vvill he do to vs in the nevv Lavv that erect a nevv and straunge course or vvord to rule his Church by What did the Pope but so He did suffer Gods vvorde to have a course as far as it pleaseth him so that he might have the vvhole authority above it What now Mr Iacob How will you aunswer your owne men Or will you be so good to the Papists your grandsiers as a little to help them at a dead lift with your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So may they plead for their worship against this Scripture Mat. 15.9 opposed vnto them by the Martyrs as you do for yours Specially seing your Book of common prayer was taken out of their Portuis and your Book of consecrating Bishops and Priests out of their Pontificall So that if theirs then yours also must needs be according to the precepts of men yea of Antichrist that man of sinne Thus you have aunswer enough to this if you have eye enough to see it In your Second note because this Scripture was spoken to them that were of a visible Church c. you say Mat. 15.9 Therefore it affirmeth nothing against you This is a very straunge consequence Have not your selves alledged it against the Papists and would you admit of such an answer I shewed heretofore that the things verifyed sometymes of the members of a true Church may fitly be alledged against a false Church and yet not iustify them in such estate to be a true one See the Scriptures †Pag. 83. there quoted which by the Martyrs and others are often
Devills Doth your Church hold them as things indifferent Or will not this prove a blasphemous opinion even in your owne judgement 4. Mynd withall how the Dispensations given by your Prelates for eating of flesh in tymes forbidden runne stil among you as they did and do among the Papists with this clause fana conscientia that is with a safe conscience and your Excommunications with this clause Ad salutem anioâ—e that is for the salvation of the soule Doth not this shew that your Churches hold not these things as you pretend but agree with the Papists therein Or hold you matters of conscience and salvation for things indifferent 5. Likewise for your Ministery and book of common prayer c. hold you them as matters indifferent or as necessarie for the service of God and salvation of your soules 6. And what say you to the blasphemy magik errors lyes in the Apocrypha books retained among you for the service of God Count you them also for indifferent things 6. Finally towching the Popish opinion of works whereof you speak know you not how they hold that their works merit not for the work sake but for Christs being dyed with his blood Yet notwithstanding this colour the point being well considered it doth highly dishonour Christ and derogate from his office of sole Mediation In like maner the Hierarchy c. that is the governement worship confusion and Ministery of Antichrist retained among you whatsoever you pretend for them yet being duly weighed do as towching your Church constitutioÌ„ abolish the governement and MediatioÌ„ of Christ except you could prove him to be Mediatour of another Testament then his owne Behold what your Indifferent opinioÌ„ will prove when it comes to be throughly scanned As you like it you may hold it still To end this point let the Reader note and not forget it how your self do here in playne termes confesse that your Hierarchy that is your Churches governement Ministery c. was never but nought This suites yll with the title of your book and gives small encouragement for any to serve God by such Ministery worship c. For Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Pag. 40.41 I have cleared them before froÌ„ your hasty censure Now onely let the Reader observed how this is alway the foot of your song Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. As if their errors were better warrant for you then Gods word for vs. CHAP. 10. The fourth Reason against M. Iacobs AssumptioÌ„ aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THe doctrines of faith conteined in that Book alledged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still execute or joyne vnto the Ministery of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or joine vnto the Ministery and worship of the man of sinne the covert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. ReasoÌ„ is Mahomets Ministery and Antichrists Ministery are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot save a man that ioineth also to Mahomets Ministery Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot save a man that ioineth also to Antichrists Ministery which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equivocation as we call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie have a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichrists assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches Then I graunt your whole Argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolâ—shing vs from Christ. true But that wee doe so in England which comes in the CoÌ„clusioÌ„ Or that any ChristiaÌ„ amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterly deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2 Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie and some outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutly deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioined with the good doctrines of that our Book doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie as before was shewed in the Second Exception Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 4. Reason Here Mr Iacob the light of the trueth doeth so dazell your eyes as you freely confesse you cannot deny any whit of the Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is you say an Equivocation in it and therefore you will distinguish I answer There is no equivocation at all in the words they are all plaine to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore your distinction here is idle and frivolous Yet let vs see between what things you do distinguish It is between the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and between the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction towching the matter in hand For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed before God aswell as the rest of their woship and service Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the Argument here is not of whatsoever thing vsed among the Turkes and Papists but of the Ministerie and worship which they have devised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministery reteined among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall governement Canons proceedings c. All which in the Church of England are taken out of * Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3.4.7.8.9.10.11.12 that golden cup of abominations wherewith Antichrist that man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken As may appeare by comparing their Pontificals Canons and constitutions togeather If you will needes be otherwise minded then prove the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Christ And marke here that you graunt the doctrine of faith conteined in your booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian who holding them doth withall receive and ioyne vnto the publike worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This you say you graunt as most true WherevpoÌ„ it followeth even by your owne confession 1. That such things may be ioined with the doctrines of faith receiued among you as in such estate you cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truths which you
‡ Rev. 18.1.2.3.4.11 c 17.1.2.3.4.5 14.8.9.10.11 the spirituall Babylon notwithstanding any truthes she holdeth yet is so vnsanctifyed and abominable as shee is become a cage of all vncleane and hatefull birdes and that all her children Marchants that will not depart out of her shall receive of her plagues and damnation and drink of the vvine of Gods vvrath and be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angells and before the Lamb for evermore Loe here your fearfull estate which you notwithstanding will needes accompt holy and acceptable before God H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 5. Reason IN this your defence of your Fifth Reason you mislike that I call it an absurd comparison Where you affirme that the golden vessels of the Iewes were as available to sanctify the Babilonians as the truthes of the Gospell which wee hold are to sanctify vs. In deed your ovvne vvordes be holden and received in the spirituall Babylon By which termes you meane vs of England I trow But marke sir Is not this grosse Sophistry againe Is not this childish vanity open beggerie and craving of that which is the whole question that is That our Churches are spirituall Babylon and as deepely infected in Babylonish impietie as those old Caldeans If they were so infected I graunt in deed your Reason would follow But seeing it is the question and seing we professe our selves true Christians by those truths of the Gospell which wee hold and as by Gods grace wee are in deed Say I not well that this is an absurd Comparison Yes Maister Iohnson it is a most †To match those outvard vessells of no sanctity of themselves with our inward doctrines of salvation impious absurd and senceles comparison and void of common Reason And it inwrappeth wrappeth Maister Cranmer Maister Ridley c. within the same iniurious you irreligious consequence likewise All that you have of allusions and alluding betweene the Typicall and spirituall Babylon are meere delusions and vaine cavils Prove vs first to be spirituall Babylon Or els you fight with your shadow So that still I say those Scriptures quoted of Dan. 5. c. As also all the rest here packed togeather they are miserably and desperately abused according as I rightly referred you to my censure to your First Reason which for all your wordes you have not refuted The very same I say of your other two scriptures towards the end Prov 9.17 c. Rev. 18.1 c. As for Ezech. 43.8 I answered it before †Pag. 71. in your First Reason Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 5. Reason HAve you said any thing here first Mr Iacob but denyed the Conclusion If you have shew it If not confesse your owne childish vanity and open beggery c. For which the name of Sophistry is to good though otherwise it be bad ynough and the cognisance of all your Replies Now that this you say is but the denyal of the Conclusion thus I shew That which I conclude towching your Churches is this that they are not constitute according to the ordināce of Christ but according to the apostasy of Antichrist that is that your Churches in their estate are spirituall Babylon This I say is that which I have concluded heretofore and still do throughout my Reasons Exceptions Aunswers and now of purpose have I set it downe at the beginning of this treatise Pag. 3. Your denying of this then what is it els but the denyall of the Conclusion But this now being proved you are driven nill ye will ye plainely to graunt that in deed my Reason will follow Well Mr Iacob though it were long first yet thus you yeeld now at length Better late thrive then never Abide but by this and I trow you will not now any longer stand member or Minister of your Assemblies in that estate neyther condemne vs any more for separating from them Next howsoever it were for the question between vs yet the Proposition of the Comparison cannot but be true which in your first Reply you said was most false and now you would passe by because you can say nothing against it Yet mynd Mr Iacob that in denying it you did there agayne give the lye to the holy Ghost whose doctrine it is in these Scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 Levit. 23. chap. Prov. 9.17.18 By all this then you may see it is your owne dealing that is most impious absurd sencelesse c. thus to strive as you have done against so cleare a truth and everie where in your Replyes to fight against God and his word Which even here againe you cease not to do whiles you call such allusions and comparisons as the Scripture vseth between the typicall and spirituall Babylon meer delusions and vayne cavils How I matched together on the one hand the vessells of the Lords Temple and the truthes of the Gospell on the other The Caldean and spirituall Babylon may be seen in my former aunswer Which may suffice for any thing you say here both your marginall note and all the rest I could tell you further if it needed that Babel in English is confusion And that such is the estate of your Church even a confusion of all sorts of people good and bad Besides that your tounges are divided and your language confounded as it was in * Gen. 11.9 Babel of old whiles the Prelates the Reformists your self and the like as Neuters between both speak some one thing some another towching your Hierarchy worship Canons c. some †The Prel Formal that they are of God and to be kept and obeyed for conscience sake some ‡ The Sekers of Reform that they are of Antichrist and to be removed and witnessed against vnto death though every haire of the head were a life some ♣ Mr Iacob the like that they are neyther of God neyther of Antichrist simply fundamentally indifferently c. And thus as men confounded in your selves by the just judgement of God your toungues are divided you know not your selves what to make and account of these things or one of another I could also put you in mind that as the Caldean Babylon was so the spirituall Babylon is notorious for false worship towards God and for persecution of his people keping them in thraldome and captivity See M. Iacob◠Repl. before And that now the estate of your Church is such viz worshipping God after a false maner never prescribed by himself kept in subiection to your Antichristian Prelats and persecuting the people of God by prisonment exile death c. it is so evident as when you are called vpon to shew warrāt for these among you your vsuall aunswer is no other but after this sort * Pag. 37. Let the State which mainteyneth these things aunswer for them †Pag. 70. For my part I never thought other but our Church corruptions are against the Secōd
Secondly vvhere you say out of Iohn 4. That it is manifest there was no contention between the Iewes and the Samaritans whether onely the true God was to be worshipped There appeareth †no vvord of any such thing A bold assertion Our Sauiour indeed noteth vers 21. One difference betvvene them that vvas but about the place of vvorshipping on occasion of the vvomans vvordes But that there vvas no difference betvvene them in the observing of the First commandement he saith not The contrary you savv before proved in 2. King 17.30.31 3. Thirdly you vrge my confession That the Israelites vnder Ieroboam served not Pagan Idols but the true God after their owne devices And you would prove it too by 2 King 17.28.32.33 Seeing the Samaritans worshipped after the manner of the nations that dwelt there before they came who were the Tenne tribes that Ieroboam drew away I aunsvvere First it is great shame that you make this my confession vvhen I expressely bring it in as your Obiection Pag. 105. vvherevnto I set myne ansvver that the Idolatry vnder Ieroboam seemeth farre grosser anb filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs vvhich I make manifest by the scripture not onely 1. King 12.28 vvhere Ieroboam erected visible Idols and very filthy ones even calues and brute beasts vvhich if they vvere but to vvorship God by yet vvho vvould compare our Ecclesiasticall orders to them which ♣ 〈◊〉 viz. the generall state we professe are but indifferent things for order and comelinesse onely Further I alledge 2 Chron. 11.15 where Ieroboam is said to appoinct Priests for the high places for Divels and for the Calves that he had made So I confesse little to your aduantage Secondly if the Samaritans worshipped as they did indeed like the Tenne tribes before them then you are cleane gone For though Ieroboam at the First had not ioined in the Heathenish Idolatry Yet Ahab did 1 King 16.32.33 and his Sonne Ahaziah had further Baalzebub the God of Ekron Yea the Israelites as they of Ierusalem afterwards were Idolaters much alike 2 King 17.19 But wee read of the Ievves vnder Ahas 2 Chro. 28.23 and Manasses and Amon. 2 King 21. and 23.4.5.10.11.12.13 That they vsed the very Pagans Idolatrie Yea it is expressed 2 King 17.8.11.16.17 That these Ten Tribes vsed the very same Therefore the Samaritans doing as the Israelites did held such grosse Idolatry as could by no meanes stand with the true seruing of God Finally as before is noted 2 King 17.29.30.31 doeth expresse this grosse Heathenish Idolatrie of the Samaritans Pag. 109. Surely it appeareth more grosse and worse then the Israelites before them And therefore you are greatly deceived both here and in the defence of your First Reasō before Pag. 67.68 where you expreslie mainteine these Samaritans to holde no Heathnish Idolatrie but onely to cleave to the God of Israell in an outward devised corrupt worship They acknowledged him I graunt but him only I deny as hath ben proved Pag. 68. Further you affirme in your defence of your First Reason That they professed the written law to be the rule both for their inward beliefe and outward manner of worship Where you vvould prove it For that the Apostate Israelites did so of whom Ezeck speaketh Ezek. 43.8 First this followeth not because the Heathnish Samaritans vvere further from sincerity then the naturall Israelites commonly Secondly Israell it selfe in this vvretched Apostasie helde not the vvritten lavv for their rule seeing professedly they left this rule and did constantlie vvorship Calves and sacrifized at Dan and Bethel Thirdly Ezechiell shevveth euen there cap. 43.7.8 they kept not this rule but departed therefrom and that as appeareth professedly and constantly Which most of all is scene in Ahab Ahaziah Ahas Manasses and Amon as is before noted Pag. 71.110 Wherefore in these your sayings Maister Iohnson you are intollerably too blame and foully deceaued As for example They professed that vvhich they did in 2 Kinges 17.29.30.31 vvas that after the rule of the vvritten Lavv Next you oppugne me for that I alleadged our Assemblies throughout England haue not their consciences conuicted in the Hierarchy and ceremonies you say If this were so is it any iust defence of your Ministery worship Pag. 107. estate c. I tell you it is a iust defence for our Ministerie vvorship and estate to be as touching the substance and foundation of Christianitie sound and acceptable to God Refute it if you can I know it is no iust defence of our vvhole Ministery estate and manner of vvorship vvhich I neuer intended much lesse professed to iustifie Where you vvould snatch at an aduantage about Aarons line my meaning vvas that they of Aaron were only for Priests and their brethren of Leui only for Leuites But you passe this and you set your self in earnest to prove vs all conuicted in conscience about our Hyerarchy and ceremonies So that here you auouch openly Pag. 5. that third generall poinct which I obserued in my very beginning aboue for the which you haue this Reason Have not wee the scriptures as much as the Apostate Isralites had Or did not Christ as fully and plainly sett downe our Ministery and worship in the Gospell as Moses in the Law I aunswer this is true as touching the word it self In the Gospell we are taught as plainly and as fully for the word it self as the Iewes were in Moses But it is not yet so plaine for our vnderstanding and vse Why Because wee haue had a discontinuance of the ‡ The Pastors of the Churches since have had many corruptions mixed in their callings they have not ben pure simple ever since or at last vve cannot prove it othervvise by any records novv extant simple offices of Pastours Teachers and Elders for the space of a Thousand Three hundreth or a Thousand Four hundreth Yeares and a continuance of the Prelacie all this while hetherto Also for that many auncient and late learned and Godly Christians haue beleeued it at least conuenient if not necessary in the Church And they haue expounded the Scriptures so that they carry no small ambiguity in this matter in infinite Thousands iudgement Thus it hath pleased God in his prouidence to suffer this mistaking amongest Christians thus longe thus vniuersally Whereby it commeth to passe that infinite Thousand consciences are not easely conuicted though they bee mistaken in this case With the Iewes it vvas not so in this matter that vve talke of As Moses and the Prophets vvere most plain that Ierusalem must be the onlie place of solemne worship Arons line the onely Priests no Calues nor any visible kinde of Image or meanes to worship God in So also they constantly and perpetually practized that course euen from Moses till the Apostacie of Ieroboam When any sqared from this course these vvere not onely rebuked expreslie by Gods voyce in his Prophets from time to time but
also the obstinate vvere most fearfully smitten vvith Gods miraculous hand from heauen So that for any to offend in these poinctes as Ieroboam did it could not possible bee but in presumptuous rebellion vvith a high hand against God and vvith a conuicted seared conscience Which I say cannot vvith any shevv of sence be said of many Thousand Christians in this case touching the Praelacie c. Further you vrge these Reasons That this cause hath bene made manifest to the consciences of men pag. 108. yea to the Parliament of late times You say vvell to the consciences of men but not to the consciences of all men or the most men throughout the land Yea or the most of them that knovv and feare God according to the religion novv mainteyned This is the very question If you meane so that all mens coÌ„sciences are coÌ„uicted in this matter all men surely vvill either pitty your simplicitie or laugh at your folly I pray you Maister Iohnson consider your selfe you vvere a true Christian longe before you fell into this separation Yea moreouer you vvere learned yea you knevv and acknovvledged these very corruptions a great while and yet condemned vs not Nay you condemned the separation earnestly I pray you is it not possible that numbers who see not so farre as you did then should still coÌ„demne your separation yet be true ChristiaÌ„s as you acknowledg that your self then vvas meipso teste That which you adde * pag. ibid. of persecuting vnto bandes exile and death to proue our vtter abolishing from Christ generally It is a toy First if you were meerely innocent yet this could not make vs worse then the Iewes in Chrstes time who for all that they persecuted yet were they not wholly falne from God Secondly you suffer indeed more then you need H. â—a if that you would but acknowledge the grace of God with vs so farre as it is It is therefore not Christes Crosse in that regard but your owne that you beare Finally let it bee noted if †M. Iohnson his contrariety proved bâ—tvvene his 2. Reason his 6. reason Fr. Io. Not proved but pretended See my Answer here following here in this your 6. Reason you bee not directly contraty to your self as I hue obserued in your 2. Reason Pag. 85. For you say here Pag. 104. That not the Samaritans but the Iewes were then by Christ counted the true worshippers of God heires of saluation Ioh. 4.22 But in your Second Reason Pag. 82. you say They that teach for doctrine mens precepts as ‡ Mat. 15.9 there Christ saith the Iewes then did those in particuler are no true Christians nor their assemblies true Churches Therfore you inferre or else you pretend it that those particuler Ievves were not then true vvorshippers nor their Assembles true Churches vvhich is a flat contradiction Or else what is But if you meane not this of the Ievves then you abuse the scripture and vs turning it cleane from them vvhom in your Reason you speake of and vvhom Christ therein expresly meaneth Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to M. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason MAny such things Mr Iacob I have often heard Yet God forbid that I should justify you or your estate He that justifyeth the vvicked and he that coÌ„demneth the just even they both are abomination to the Lord. Therefore dare I not eyther justify your Churches wicked estate and persecution Prov. 17.15 or condemne the righteous servants of God which witnes the truth against you But you Mr Iacob have done both in this Reply of yours the abomination whereof will further appeare in the discussing of the particulers hereafter Words in deed you have ynough as thinking belike that at least you have some show on your side but they are all to no purpose save against your selves I will now examine them from point to point First for the Reason it self the Proposition of the first Syllogisme being so cleare as you can with no colour deny it you come therefore to the latter Where you pretend first to set it downe and then to aunswer it Yet in deed you do neither Thus first you set it downe They that vvorship God after a false manner are no true Christians But put on your spectacles or if you please your eye of glasse and trye agayne if you can read any better He that hath but the halfe eye you speake of sometymes may see I propounded it thus Pag. 106. The people and Assemblies whose ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the couenants holy things and seruice of God do not appertaine This you see is the latter Proposition Why then did you not thus propound it Why do you still transforme my words and Arguments into others of your owne Is it because you can find no aunswer to them as I have propounded them Or because men should see in deed that to be in your self which you do vainly obiect vnto me viz That you do sophisticate and can do nothing els in argumentation Towching your answer to the Proposition If you had kept my words what needed I pray you this vaine distinction of yours Speciallie where there is no ambiguitie at all Was there ever any professing to worship the true God in Christ that did worship him after a false maner totally that is in all the particulars of their worship Look to the Ethiopian Churches to the Papists to anie other false worshippers of God professing Christ and see if their case be such Do they not hold and preach much truth Do they not baytize in the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost c. If you say where the constitution of a Church establisheth a false worship of God never prescribed by himself there though they seem to have some good things yet by reasoÌ„ of such constitution and practise their whole worship is false before God totally then say I also your case is such and therefore so of vs to be esteemed Thus if there be any thing in your pretended distinction it is against your self But you have another clause in it of worshipping God after a false maner fundamentally This you say you do not in the Hierarchy and externall ceremonies and therefore you auouch confidently that such may be true Christians and that the contrarie hereof is no lesse then blasphemy c. 1. First Mr Iacob this is but your bare affirmation without any warraÌ„t produced from the Scripture 2. Secondly you say such may be true Christians whereas for the point in hand you should have said all such as towching the Church-constitution wherein they stand are true Christians If you thus affirme prove it by the word of God If you cannot it will appeare to be blasphemy rather in your self so to affirme then in others
any should pray to be delivered from the Bishop of Rome and all his derestable enormityes If you will have your reason go for currant then let this also go with it hand in hand Now because you would here persuade vs that the publik ordinance of your Church sheweth you hold your faith and doctrine by the word professedly I will further prove vnto you that it is the faith or in deed an heresy of your Church that Christs soule went downe into Hell while his body was in the grave First the third Article of ‡ Book of Artic published 1562. your faith agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. hath this title Of the going downe of Christ into Hell Then the words of the Article follow thus As Christ dyed for vs and was buryed so also it is to be beleeved that he went downe into Hell Your translating and chaunging of the words of the Article otherwise then they do themselves as I noted before sheweth not their meaning but your perverting thereof I omit that in your aunswer to D. Bilson you set not the words of the Article of K. Edwards tyme in English at all Belike you saw it would sooner have discovered your fraude Secondly M. Nowell in his †On the Artic of the Creed He descended into Hel. Catechisme saith as much as your Article doth And this Catechisme is authorised in an whole * Syn. Lond. Anno. 1571. Synod and cōmāded to be taught throughout the Land Thirdly to put the matter out of all doubt the singing Psalmes printed with priviledge and authorised to be sung in all your Churches ♣ In the Psal beginning thus All my belief and cōfidence c. have it expressely thus And so he dyed in the flesh but quickned in the spirit His body then was buried as is our vse and right His spirit did after this descend into the lower parts To them that long in darknes were the true light of their harts Note also that the title of this Psalme is The 12. Articles of Christian faith Is not this then your Churches expresse faith and doctrine Yea is not that also expressed here which in the Article in K. Edwards tyme was mentioned How badly then and sophistically do you plead about your Churches faith and ordinance herein Towching which I meane the ordinance of your Church you may see D. Bilson hath the better of you though otherwise by the word of God it is plaine he hath the worse and standeth in a detestable error both against all proportion of faith and against the expresse evidence of these Scriptures Luk. 23.46 with Psal 31.5 Ioh. 19.30 Luk. 23.43 with 2 Cor. 12.2.4 Rev. 2.7 3.21 Heb. 12.23 Col. 2.14.15 Eph. 4.8.9.10 1 Pet. 3.18.19.20 2 Cor. 13.4 Psal 16.8.9.10.11 with Gen. 5.24 37.35 2 King 2.1.11 Eccles 12.7 Act. 7.59 Luk. 16.26 But tell me now Mr Iacob what power of Christ your Church hath and in whose hands it is to excommunicate D. Bilson for teaching and mainteining this or any other false doctrine a mong you Your self are a member of that Church together with him You haue written against him and by the word of God convinced him He notwithstanding persisteth and leaveneth others as much as he can Now if you be the Church of Christ as you would beare vs in hand why do you not proceed with him by the †Mat. 18.17 1 Cor. 5.4.5.6.7.11.12.13 rule and power of Christ Or if your Church haue not that power of Christ as all may see why do you not confesse it to be none of Christs Even by this then if you note it well you may perceive what your Churches faith and ordinance is Not to speak here of other most erroneous doctrines and filthy abominations mainteined among you In the third place I proved the Samaritans sinne to be against the second commaundement inasmuch as worshipping the true God they did it in and by the Images they framed Now your aunswer is that they worshipped the Idols of the Heathen and sacrificed to them and accompted them to be Gods aswell as the God of Israel and so brake the first commaundement And to prove this assertion of yours true and myne false you alledge 2 King 17.29.30.31 Where it is said Every nation made their Gods c. But are you no better divine then so Mr Iacob Are you a teacher in this light of the Gospell and vnderstand not yet this phrase of Scripture Know you not that the Lord “ accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances Images Altars places Ministeryes rites ceremonies c. are kept and observed though it be for his worship and service Or mynd you not that †2 King 17.29.30.31 these and the like speaches in the Scripture are sacramentall “ Deut. 12.30.31 Iudg. 17. chap. 2 King 16 10-16 with 2 Chron. 28.23 2 King 17.7.8 c. Hos 2.16 Ezec. 14.3.4.5 c. 20.39.40 Exo. 32.4.5 When the ‡ Exod. 32.4 Iewes and ♣ 1 King 12.28 Ieroboam said of their golden calves These be thy Gods ô Israell which brought thee out of the Land of Egypt Do you think they meant those golden Idols now made by them selves were in deed the God of Israell that brought them out of Egypt Or do you not thus vnderstand it that they made and vsed those only for signes and representations of that God That this was their purpose appeareth both by the * occasion of making them and by their ‡ Exod. 32.4 vse of them being made wheras still they intended their feasts and worship before them and by them to be to Iehovah the true God * Exod. 32.1 1 King 12.26.27.28 ‡ Exod. 32.4 Exod. 32.5 1 King 12.28.32.33 with Amos. 4.4.5 5.22.23 8.14 Micah 6.6.7 The same may be seen in Michahs example of mount Ephraim and in his mother Iudg. 17. In her that when she made a graven Image even then she prayed to Iehovah the true God and dedicated to him the silver whereof she made that Image Iudg. 17.2.3.4 †Iudg. 17.5.10 In Michah himself that he ‡ Exod. 32.4 made an Ephod and Teraphim and had an house of Gods and took first one of his owne sonnes then a Levite for his Priest Yet by all these intended the worship onelie of the true God As appeareth both by his owne speach Iudg. 17.13 when he †said Now I know that the Lord Iehovah not Idols will be good vnto me seeing I haue a Levite to my Priest and by the historie following Iudg. 18.5.6 Yea of the Samaritans themselves of whom the question is when they had made their Gods and put them in the houses of the hy places the Scripture here cited by your self saith Thus they feared Iehovah the Lord and appointed out Priests c. 2 King 17.32 The words then when it is said they made Gods c. are not literallie to be taken but sacramentallie attributing that in
Either therefore you must approve your Church-constitution to be such as it reteineth not the erroneous doctrines worship Ministery and confusion of people brought in by Antichrist but the truth way of Christ prescribed to his Church or els you see by evidence of Scripture how like your case is to Ieroboams also in this respect Not that you do so esteem it any more then he did but that God doth so account of you and of all such Churches whose constitution is to worship him otherwise then himself hath ordeined howsoever your devices may resēble his ordinances Pag. 105. as * you confesse Ieroboams also did 1 King 12.32 33. Amos. 4.4.5 5.21.22 23. So you confesse ynough against your self Next you alledge the examples of Ahab Ahaziah the Iewes vnder Ahaz Manasses and Amon to whom the Israelites were like in Idolatry also the Ten tribes and finally the Samaritans themselves These examples and the Scriptures cited about them speak of Baall and like Idols and their Altars houses Priests c. Now I have proved ‡ before that in and by these Idols and their appurtenances Pag. 117. c. they intended the worship of the Lord God himself And yet further by these testimonyes of Scripture it is most plaine viz. Hos 2 16. Micah 6.6.7 1 King 21.28.29 and 22.12.24 Exod. 32.1.4.5 Iudg. 17.2.3.5.13 and 18.5.6.17.18.19.20 Amos. 5 21.22.23 Yea in the Scriptures which ‡ here your self alledge they are said to worship after the fashion of the Heathen though it was to the true God because they sacrificed in their hy places Pag. 110. or on the Altars and before the Idols eyther of the Heathen or their owne set vp for the representation and service of God Finally none of these Scriptures do shew that the Samaritans did so worship the Idols of the Heathen as accounting them to be in deed Gods aswell as the God of Israell Which is your assertion So it is your self Mr Iacob that are cleane gone Your perventing of my words I omit But now what will you say if the case of the very Pagans Idolatry be not so cleare as you take it for the worshipping of the Idols themselves and esteeming them to be so many severall Gods Augustine saith the Pagan Doctors defend their many Gods to be but * August de Civit. Dei lib. 4. cap. 11. one and the same Iupiter that is one God of whom the ♣ Poet sayth He is throughout all the earth the sea and the heaven Virgil. 4. Geo Againe he testifyes that they themselves did thus aunswer him ‡ Aug. Ibid. cap. 24. What Should we beleev that our forefathers were so exceding foolish as to think Bacchus Ceres Pan and the like were Gods Nay they beleeved onely one God whose name because they knew not therefore did they honour his gifts functios vnder divers names c. Plato a Pagan himself in one of his Epistles saith thus Hereby you shall know whether I write in good earnest Plato Epist. 13. ad Dion or not If in earnest I begin my letters with the onely one God If otherwise with many Yea Phocylides an heathen Poet could say Phocylides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There is but onely one God wise powerfull and very happy And Epictetus a Stoick thus It is before all things to be learned that there is but one God that he ruleth all things Epictetus apud Arriā that he provideth for all that whatsoever we do speak or think nothing can be hid from him that we should worship him as our Creator and Father and the onely authour of our felicity And that if vve call vpon God aright vvee shal be advertised of the best things by his Angels at his cōmaundement Calvin also saith the prophane men thought not to dravv the onely God frō his heavenly throne vvhen they feyned to themselves many Gods Calv. in Hos 2.17 but reserving a supreme Godhead over all they vvould have Patrones vvhom to vse for obteyning grace and favour of the most high God And by Plato himself it appeareth they took the Angels for such whom he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Plato in Epinom e◠in Cratylo Spirits and therefore thought they were to be honoured 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as being the meanes of “ or prayse-worthy prosperous intercession or proceding Whom therefore they vsed as helps for better accesse vnto God as now do the Papists their many intercessors who yet hold there is but one God Thus they thought of God and of his gifts works Angels c. Then for the Pagans vse of their Idols or Images Calvin writing against such men as in excuse of their Idolatry pretend Calv. Inst. lib 1. ca. 11. se 9. 1◠they account not the Images to be Gods sheweth that neither did the Ievves think their Calfe to be God nor the Heathen their Images but that as the Papists novv so the Heathen and Ievves then vvere persvvaded they vvorshipped God in and by those Images Thus writeth Calvin Then which what can be more full and pregnant against you And Plutarch recordeth that Numa Pompilius a Pagan forbad the Romanes to think that Gods Image had eyther the likenes of Man or the forme of any creature Plutar. in vita Numae Neither vvas there before vvith them saith he any Image or representation of God eyther painted or fayned but in the first hundred and seventy yeares they built in deed Temples and erected holy Chappels but consecrated no Image at all Even as if it vvere detestable to resemble better things to vvorse and because God can not othervvise be perceived but in the mynd and vnderstāding And yet further Plutarch also in an other place hath to this effect that the Sunne Plutar. de Isid et Osyrid the Moone the Heaven c. are not to be vvorshipped that they in deed are but looking glasses vvherein may be seen the vvorkmanship of God that adorneth the vvhole vvorld And that the vvorld is no other thing but his Temple Yea moreover towching both these points now treated of that the severall nations have not their severall Gods so as vve should think the Grecians have theirs the Barbarians theirs the Northerne people theirs the Southerne theirs But like as the Sunne the Moone the Heaven the Earth the Sea are common to all yet are called by severall names of severall people so likevvise that one divine Spirit which framed this whole world vvhose providence is over it all yet hath severall honours and severall names attributed vnto him according to the lawes of several natiōs c. Behold then what the Pagans themselves do testify Albeit I neither doubt nor deny but some among them speciallie in later tymes were far more grosse then others even as now we may see in the Papists a great difference among themselves both for their judgement and practise in their Idolatry Yet notwithstanding by the testimonies aforsaid you
abhominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 For now I would know of you who are so deep a Clerke how Antichrists Church and Religion should iustly be accounted a mystery of iniquitie and truely be said to speak Lies in hypocrisy also prively to bring in Damnable heresies and to haue a Shevv of godlines if they did absolutly and vvholy departe from the faith and not onelie frō some points thereof But over and above all it seemeth by this reason that not onelie the Apostles were mistaken in giuing vs markes how to know false teachers and false religions But also Christ himselfe when he said †Mat. 7.15 Bevvare of false Prophetes vvhich come to you in sheepes clothing but invvardly are ravening vvolves And againe †Mat. 24.23.24 If any shall say vnto you Loe here is Christ or there beleeve it not For there shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and shall shevv great signes and vvonders so that if it vvere possible they should deceive the very elect Now if they should totally depart frō the faith what sheepes clothing I pray you should they have to come in Or how should either themselves be said to come in the name of Christ affirming their Religion to be Christs and shewing signes and wonders to draw men therevnto Or the elect be in such vnspeakable danger to be deceived by them This might suffice to shew the falsehood and impietie of your answer But yet I will note a few things mo therein First it being graunted that the popish forbidding of Mariage and meats so they were no worse doth not make them depaxters frō the faith totally yet tell vs if holding never so manie truthes besides and yet forbidding these they could by the word of God truely be said in that estate to hold the faith of Christ and to be true Christians 1 Tim. 4.1.3 If they could not as the Apostle * testifieth then is your answer in this respect also nothing to the purpose but against your self both for the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and for the English Hierarchy and other abominations among you received from the Papistes which vnder colour of this answer you would defend Next see in Bales Votaries and in the Acts and monuments c. what abominable filthines the forbidding of mariage and what fowle superstition the forbidding of meats hath wrought in the kingdome of Antichrist And tell me then what man fearing God durst once open his mouth for such divelish doctrines and estate Againe where you say The Papists fall from Christ in other poincts besides the aforsaid Namely 1. The Papall supremacie 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by vvorkes vvhich England novv is far from Tell vs first whether in this sence the Papists can for these be said to depart from the faith totally If they can not what weight is there in this for defēce of your estate that the Papists could not alledge for themselves viz that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy Secondly tell vs whether there are no other poincts but these three in the Papists Religion which make them in their estate to be departers from the faith and consequentlie false Christians and false Churches If there be as you can not deny of what weight then is your answer to defend the present constitution of your people and assemblies seeing there are divers other things besides these that do and may cause that you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches in that estate Many “ Servetus Sabellius Arius the Anabaptistes c. heretikes heretofore have and at this day do reject these three aforsaid Are they therefore in their estate to be accounted true Chrestians or true Churches Thirdly your manner of reasoning heer for your defence is as if the Adulterers to justify their course of life should alledge thus We are 1 no Blasphemers 2 no Persecutors 3 no Murtherers as such and such are therefore we depart not from the way of life but our estate and course of life is good and such as may be continued in Yet the Scripture sayth * Iam. 2.10.11 whosoever shall keep the vvhole Lavv and yet faileth in one poinct is guiltie of all For he that sayed Thou shalt not commit adulterie saied also Thou shalt not kill Novv though thou doest no adultery yet if thou killest thou art a transgressour of the Lavv and contrariwise So that whatsoever sinnes the Adulterer be far from yet as Salomon saith cōmitting adultery vvith a vvoman he fayleth in heart and destroyeth his owne soule Prov. 6.32 The same is the case of all spirituall Adulterers who whatsoever sinnes they be farre from yet in the worship of God runne a vvhoring after their owne inventions embracing the bosomes of strange vvomen and drinking on their cup of fornications Num. 15.39 vvith Prov. 5.20 and Rev. 17.4 Ier. 4.18 Fourthly shew vs sufficient warrant from the Scriptures why setting these three aside the Hierarchy and other popish abominations received among you can not be judged to make you in such estate departers from the faith and therefore false Christians and false Churches whatsoever truthes you hold besides Num. 16.1.2 c. Corah Dathan Abiram and their partakers were far from the Abominations of the Heathen they held also the poincts of faith that Moses and Aaron held differing onelie from them and departing onely from the faith in a matter concerning the Priesthood whereof notwithstanding they * vers 3. shewed their reasons why they were so perswaded Yet will you not deny I trow but they departed from the faith and were in this estate neither to be accounted true Israelits nor their assemblies true Churches with which communion might be kept If you should the Scripture is witnesse against you Num. 16.26 Now compare case with case and tyme with tyme and you shall find the estate of your people and Assemblies to be far more grievous As hath ben shewed alreadie in the Second Exception before and in other Treatises to which we have yet received no answer viz The ansvver to Maister A.H. The 9. Reasons concerning not hearing the Ministers of these assemblies of England To conclude this poinct if your Abominations in England were farre fewer then they are yet so long as you reteine that poisonfull leaven of your Hierarchy and vvorship we must tell you as the Scripture saith and experience teacheth That †2. King 4.39.40 a little poison bringeth death vnto the whole pot of potage A 1 Cor. 5.6 litle leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump And Eccl. 10.1 a fevv dead flyes cause the oynctemēt of the Apothecarie to stinke and putrifie Although indeed your abominations are not a few but swarme in abundance among you Some whereof see before Pag. 63. c. In the next place fearing belike that the evidence of “ 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 this Scripture could not by these shiftes of yours be avoided
but that still the reason deduced from thence is of force against you now you would have vs passe by you and not to apply it vnto you or your mother Church of Rome but to vnderstand it of Martion and Tatianus of whom you say that they absolutely condemning mariage and certen meats might indeed even therein vvholy fall from the faith somevvhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for having their consciences conuicted and seared vvith an hote iron And thus say you are they in no comparison vvith you of Englād But first if your former answer were of anie weight it might be asked why the followers of Martion and Tatianus might not likewise have defended them thus and said that their departure from the faith vvas but in some poincts not vvholy from all Secondly if this scripture was verifyed as you graunt in Martiō and Tatianus for their condemning of mariage and meats then we must needs think it verified also in the Romishe vvhore and her apostate childrē which are falne into the very same sinnes that are heer mentioned The Apostle nameth Martion and Tatianus no more then he doeth the whorish Babylon and the children of her fornication but comprehendeth heer all such who so ever they be as shall fall into this Apostasie And further if the wordes of this scripture be duly weighed and either other scriptures or the estate of the Romish harlot and her children cōpared therewith it will be found as lively to describe these as either Martion or any other that ever were in the world 1. First when the Apostle sayth that this shal be in the latter tymes who seeth not that it doeth most directlie point at the Romish Whore Though we doubt not but Martiō and Tatianus who lived 1400. yeares since or thereabout may also be cōprehended therein 2. Secondlie when it is said they shall departe from the faith thereby signifying that once they held the faith how playne is this of the Romish harlot which in the †Rom. 1.7 Apostles time was the spouse of God and since is falne into Apostasy and become the Mother of vvhoredomes and abominations of the earth 2. Thes 2.3 and Rev. 17.1.2.3.4.5 3. Thirdlie when it is said they shall give heed to spirits of errour and doctrines of Divels how fitly agreeth this to the Romish Babylon which as the scripture els where testifies is become the habitation of Divels hold of all soule spirits Rev. 18.2 4. Fourthlie when it is said they shall speake lyes through hypocrisy not to reckon vp the infinite particulars that might be alleadged for proof hereof how fitlie doth this describe the Religion and practise of the man of sinne the Romish Antichrist which the Scripture also calleth “ a mystery of iniquity as pretending to be with and for Christ and to draw men vnto him when indeed it is opposed against and exalted above the Lord Iesus and all his holy ordinances 2 Thes 2.4.7 5. Fiftlie when it is said they shall have their consciences seared vvith an hote iron how true is this found vpon the throne of the Beast and his Kingdome concerning which the scripture also testifieth †that vvhen the vials of Gods vvrath shal be povvred out vpon them and they conuinced of their jmpieties and abominations they shal be so farre from acknowledging and forsaking them as they shall gnavv their tongues for sorrovv and rather thē they will forsake their wickednes shall fight against God and his truth ‡ Let their raylings slāders Edicts Articles iniunctions finally their cōtinuall oppositiōs madnes against the truth people of God be witnesses of all this blaspheming the God of heaven for their paines for their sores and not repenting of their vvorkes Rev. 16.10.11 Lo here a seared cōscience in the Beastes kingdome 6. Finallie when the Spirit of God giveth here two particular instances of this apostasy 1. The forbidding of mariage 2. And the commaunding to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiuing How directlie doeth he in both these as it were with the finger point at the Romish Babylon and her daughters In the one that is the forbidding of Mariage when as the Romish Babylon forbiddeth it to Priests Friers Nunnes and such like and the English her daughter to fellowes of Colleges and prētises and both these Churches to all men and women in Lent Advent Rogation vveek c. In the other that is the forbidding of meats when they forbid the eating of flesh on Fridayes Saturdayes Emberdayes Lent Saints eves c. Thus you see this Scripture which you would turne over to Martion and Tatianus doth most fitlie agree vnto and most plainlie describe the Romish Apostasy whether we apply it therevnto or compare this and other scriptures togeather speaking of the same Apostasy and defection By this also may appeare that as you say of Martion and Tatianus that they might be said wholy to fall from the faith somwhat like to Balaam Iudas those apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for having their cōsciences conuicted and seared with an hote iron So may be said also of the Romish Babylon and her daughters Touching which point see moreover what is said before in the sixt Reason Neyther will your marginall additions nor your new clauses in the Reply it self help eyther you or the Papists any whit They are all as foolish and as contradictorie to the Apostles expresse words as be those which you vsed before So the same answer may serve them all still And whereas in the margent you refer vs to your next Reply follovving thither also do I refer you for aunswer of whatsoever you can there alledge In the meane tyme let the Reader mynd here that both all your marginall notes and such clauses also in this Reply of yours as are now included in a parenthesis be newly added in your printed book and were not before in your written copy which I aunswered Your self belike do now see the folly and insufficiency of your former pretended distinctions and excuses This by the way I thought now to adde by reason of these your new additiōs Now if seeing the evidence of this Scripture so full and plaine against your selves you would therefore except 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 that in deed in the Romish Church it is so but not in yours of England First by this meanes you should overthrow your owne answer here who have denied it of the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and would turne it over from them to Martion and Tatianus Yea and feare not now againe to give the holy Ghost the lye when you pretend that the very Papists themselves if they erred in nothing els have not their consciences convicted nor seared with an hote iron which yet the Apostle affirmeth expressely of all such 1 Tim. 4.2.3 Secōdlie this would not hinder but that the consequent of the Proposition and the Assumption are good
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it
be here in the field of this world Mat. 13.19.24.37.38.41.43.52 compared with Gen. 28.17 1 Cor. 3.16.17 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Ephes 2.21.22 Mat. 8.12 16.18.19.28 21.43 22.12.13.14 25.1 c. Luk. 8.1 11.20 13.18 17.20 â—1 Ioh 1.49.51 Act. 1.3 1 Tim. 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.5 2. Tim. 2.20.21 3.5 And further if Christs meaning were that men should here still deare and partake with the knowen wicked and prophane notwithstanding that their estate then by this it would follow that there should neyther be vse of ExcoÌ„munication in the Church nor punishment of malefactors in the Common-wealth Which could not but be the destruction of both And is directlie contrary to the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles in other Scriptures As namelie in Mat. 18.17.18 and 26.52 Rom. 13.4 1 Cor. 5. chap. 1 Tim. 1.20 Finally this their doctrine aforsaid is against the expresse coÌ„maundement of God the heavenly order of Christ in his Church and the continuall practise of the Prophets Apostles and faithfull in all ages For which see these Scriptures Gen. 17.14 and 19 12-16 Lev. 18.29.30 and 20 22-26 Numb 16 23-26 Ezra 6.21 9.14 Esa 8.12.18 and .44.5 52.11 Ier. 15.19 Ezeh 22.26 zach 2.7 8.21 22.23 Mal. 3.16.17.18 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18 Act 2.40.41.47 and 5.28.29 and 17.4.7.34 and 19.9 Rom. 16.17 1 Cor. 1.26.27 and 5 4-7 2 Cor. 6.17 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 2 Ioh. vers 6.10 11. Iud. vers 3.21.22.23 Rev. 2. 3. chap. 14.9.12 17.14 18.4 20.4 5. That the people may tolerate ioine with open iniquitie in the Church vntill by the Magistrate it be redressed Which doctrine is contrarie to these Scriptures 2 Cor. 10.4.5 Mat. 28.20 Act. 2.40 3.23 4.19 9.26 19.9 1 Tim. 5.22 Deu. 5.32 12.32 6. That the gifts of interpretation and application of the Scriptures are a sufficient and lawfull calling to the Ministery c Which doctrine is both false and Anabaptisticall contrarie to the Scriptures Heb. 5.4 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Levit. 22.25 Ezech. 44.8.9 c Numb 1.51 3.10.38 16.40 18.2.3.4 Act. 1.20.26 13.2.3 14.23 7. That the Church may yeeld obedience vnto other Lawes Canons traditions officers and offices then God hath prescribed in his Covenant Which doctrine is contrarie to Gen. 49.10 Mat. 6.24 Iohn 10.4.5 Rev. 14.4 22.18.19 Heb. 3.1 c. 8. That the Church may read other mens words vpon a book and offer them vp to God as their owne prayers and sacrifices in the publique Assemblies Which doctrine is contrarie to the scriptures Esay 29.13.14 Rom. 8.26 1 Cor. 14.15 Mat. 6.6.9 15.9 Mar. 7.7 Exod. 30.9 with Psal 141.2 Rev. 5.8 8.3.4 Iud. vers 20. Ephes 4.7.8 6.18 1 Pet. 2.5 9. That it is lawfull to ioine with the Ministery of dumb and Idoll Priests and to receive the Sacraments at their handes Which doctrine is contrary to Mat. 15.14 7.15 24.24.25 Esa 56.10 Iohn 10.1.5 Num. 16.5.9.24.26.39.40 c. 1 Tim. 3.2 6.5 2 Iohn vers 6.11 10. That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to ceasse preaching and forsake his flock at the Commaundement of the Lord Bishops Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Cor. 9 16. Esay 62.1.6.7 Ier. 48.10 Zach. 11.17 Iohn 10.11.12.13 Act. 4.18.19.20 5.29 Amos 7.12.13.14.15 2 Tim. 4.2 11. That the Church of Christ hath not alwayes power to binde and loose to receive in and to cast out by the Keyes of his Kingdome Which doctrine is contrarie to Mat. 18.17.18 Psal 149.9 1 Cor. 5.4.5.12 Num. 5.2.3 12. That it is lawfull for the people of God to heare notorious false Prophetes in their Ministery Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 18.15 Mat. 17.5 7.15 2 Iohn vers 10 11. 1 Cor. 10.18 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 18.4 Iohn 10.5 13. That it is the Church and house of God the body and kingdome of Christ where he reigneth not by his own Ordinances Officers but the highest Ecclesiasticall authoritie is in the handes of strange Lordes Antichristian Prelates who also gouerne by Romish Cannons and not according to the lawes of Christs Testament Which doctrine and practise is condemned by Luke 19.14.27 Iohn 15.14 Rom. 6.16 Luke 22.25 26. 1 Pet. 5.3 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Iohn 3.35.36 Rev. 9.3 14.9.10.11 19.14.15.19 14. That there may be a prescript Leiturgy and set forme of service in the Church framed by man Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 5.8 Esa 29.13.14 Mat. 15.9 Mar. 7.6.7 Gal. 3.15 Iohn 4.24 Rom. 8.26.27 Ephes 4.7.8 Col. 2.23 15. That an Antichristian Prelate notwithstanding his dignitie as it is called spirituall may be a Civill Magistrate and obeyed of the people as their lawfull governour Which doctrine is contrarie to Rom. 13.1 c. Mat. 20.25.26 Mar. 10.42.43 Luke 22.25.26 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 17.14.16.18 16. That men may giue the titles of Christ Iesus to these sonnes of men his mortall enemies to call them their Archbishops Lordbishops Fathers Lords c. Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Pet. 5.3.4 with 2.25 Mat. 23.8.9.10 Esa 42.8 and 48.11 Prov. 17.15 and 24.24 Esay 5.20 2 Cor. 6.14.17 17. That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to be mainteyned in his ministery by Iewish and Popish tythes Chrisomes offerings c. Which doctrine is contrarie to Heb. 7.12 1 Cor. 9.13.14 1 Thes 5.12.13 Pro. 27.26.27 Phil. 4.10.18 Rom. 15.27 Gal. 6.6 These are the points of false doctrine mentioned * before in the proof of this Reason Pag. 155. Which you have left altogeather vnanswered as also your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. And thus are you driven againe and againe whether you will or not to yeeld the cause That which you adde in the next place of your not wholy denying the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof is answered before in the second Exception and sixt and seaventh Reasons Where you say you are not herein like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Iewes Act. 13.14 and 16.3 and 21.23.24.26 and 3.1 you say nothing to any purpose For what though you be not in all respects like those Iewes Are you not therefore to be separated from So in deed you would conclude But then tell vs if Corah Dathan Abiram the Apostate Iewes vnder IeroboaÌ„ the corinthian infidels Papists c. might not alledge some particular exceptioÌ„ wherein they were not like to those Iewes Act. 19. Might not therefore separation be made from these The Scripture teacheth otherwise Num. 16.25.26 2 Chron. 11.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Rev. 18.4 Secondlie consider the case here spoken of Act. 19.9 and compare it with your estate and practise and see if there be not now as great and iust cause to separate from you as was then from them The words are these When some were hardned and disobeyed speaking evill of that way before the multitude Paul departing from them separated the disciples Act.
worship and service of God Vnto these questions and the particulers thereof for the causes aforesaid we desire your direct answer with proofes of your answers from the scriptures According to which word if you speak not as I said before so I say againe Esa 8.20 it is because there is no light in you And now to conclude where you would in the end of your writing being not able to answer our Reasons fasten vpō vs some strange passion yea meere desperatnes for separating from you and answering of you as we have done we refer it to the godly and discreet Reader to iudge by that which hath ben said on both parts whether it bee not your selves that are taken with the strange passion you speake of and driven therevnto by meer desperatnes when for to mainteyne your owne estate you will haue the scriptures to fall and exalt the Church and Magistrate above Christ himself even flesh and blood above God blessed for ever Your practise whereof see before Pag. 28. 91. 100. 105. 135. c. But for this all your vnrighteous dealing against the truth people of God we leaue you to the Lord who searcheth the heart and tryeth the raynes to giue euery man according to his wayes according to the fruite of his workes That is to them that by cōtinuance in weldoing seek glorie honor and immortalitie eternall life But vnto them that are contentious and disobey the trueth obey vnrighteousnes indignation wrath Ier. 17.10 with Rom. 2.6.7.8 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 9. Reason IN this your defence of the last Reason you mislike that I say it is a fallacy and you say I shew none Marke what I say Euery one of your Reasons I say every one is a very proper fallacy and an artificiall parte of Sophisterie as by my seuerall answers to them may appeare Your First Reason is called in the scholes Fallacia ab eo quod est secundum quid ad simpliciter prouing a thing to be simply by that which is but after a sort The Second is the very same The Third Fallacia equiuocationis A fallacie of Ambiguity The Fourth is the very same The Fift is petitio principij a begging of the question The Sixth the very same fallacie that was in the First and Second Reasons The Seauenth Eight and Ninth haue all the Fallacy of Equiuocation and if you will the same with that in your First Second and Sixt Reasons also Further where you say that here I graunt you the cause it is very absurd The Apostle 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 saying separate from such hath a two fould sence Either such as teach otherwise then the trueth fundamentally and then separate wholly Or not fundamentally but erring only in poincts lesse then the foundation and theise diuersely also Either presumptuously obstinately and of a desperate conscience and then if that appeare separate from such wholy Or els erring in simplicitie of ouersight and former preiudice from such separate nor wholly but only from the very error or errors in no wise from their Christian communion and societie seeing theise are true Christians Seing therefore our corruptions of the Praelacy and Ceremonies be of these latter sort which thing hetherto you haue not nor cannot ouerthrowe withall you must vtterly ouerthrowe Mast Cranmer the rest of the Martirs their Christianitie like wise Therefore wee in England by the grace of God are still true Christians you ought so to acknowledge vs as you will answer vnto God All which you may doe yet touch no parte of our Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to giue allowance vnto them And in all this there is no contradiction with my selfe it is but your distempered conceipt that seemeth contrarie Nither is our absolute departure from the Papists hereby anie whit impeached Wee haue iustlie forsaken them cleane because by their very professiō and doctrine wee canot esteeme them true Christians neither in case of saluatiō while they so remaine but indeed very Antichrists as the scripture proueth Which thing also if you say of vs you say falslie it is our present question and you doe not proue it nor euer can doe As for your 17. poincts of false doctrine which you most falsly lay to our chardge what haue I to doe with them I list not to meddle at this prsent but with that which wee haue in hand◠namely to iustifie that our publike booke of Articles of Religion so farre forth as that it erreth not fundamentally conteyneth sufficient to make a true Christian As it doth not Against the which hetherto you haue brought nothing worth the hearing as we haue seene After you would proue vs to be like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from But without all good reason They were not so many but they were easily certified of the truth that Paul preached but how infinitly many moe are there in this land that know nothing of this controuersie 2. Secondly Paul was better able to conuince them by the scriptures and did more effectually and apparantly then you doe or can our whole Realme 3. Thirdly how many learned are there in this lande that have many probable seeming reasons alleadge them publish them for the Praelacy against you are vnanswered And yet will you say they are conuicted those infinite others depēding on them I say cōuicted aswell as those Iewes What if these speake euill of that which you hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme Are they all yea all the land therefore abolished from Christ Might not all this at least be sayd of the whole estate of the Iewes in Christes time and after aswell yet they ceased not to bee Churches why then are you so partiall against vs Lastly you would shew Reasons why the Apostles wholy separated not from the Iewes Synagogues after Christ Act. 13.14 c. Which you will in no wise haue to serue vs. But alas for all your Exceptions against vs you haue neuer a reason but one and that is petitio principij That wee were neuer separated from the world nor set in the way order of Christ but in the confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministerie c. were neuer the ordinances of God c. This is but crauing the whole question And I haue refuted these quarells in a short writing hereafter following about the comparison of the Ministerie with Mariage which yet you haue no leysure to answer this whole three yeares togeather and vpwarde And further you doe not shew any vtter and apsolute separation from the whole Church of the Iewes a great while after Christ but the contrarie is seene Act. 21.23.24.26 though from some one or two synagogues they separated after full experience of their obstinate malitious resistance of the truth which we deny not Touching the Conclusion In the cōclusion of my former Reply to proue your vtter separation from vs a Paradox
far separate from vs. Now you hold otherwise then the truth in all the particulars †before rehearsed towching your Prelacy Priesthood Sacraments Book of common prayer Pag. 63. c. confusion of people c. Thus far therefore you graunt we may and ought to separate from you And further we do not at all For there is not anie truth you hold which we also hold not with you So then in expresse words you yeeld vs the cause And yet further you yeeld it againe in that you do not defend by the Scripture your Hierarchy worship doctrines Canons Articles Iniunctions c. received and ioined vnto by all in your Church How absurd then and vngodlie is your denyall of so manifest a truth And how distempered is your brayne that can not perceive so plaine a contradiction with your self Your two fould sence of the Apostles words is a silly fiction of your owne head without anie ground or proof at all If you will have vs think otherwise bring warrant for the particulars of your distinction from the book of God But I pittie you Mr Iacob For I see you are brought to a low ebbe Who knowes not that this is the very last refuge of all ennemyes of the truth when they are pressed with evidence of Scripture so as they can not avoid it then to faine distinctions and to cast about for the sence as if that were hard and obscure which in deed is most plaine and easy Look in Bellarmine Bilson Whitgift Bridges and whosoever els have written against the truth if their dealing be not such This then doth not aunswer the Argument but proveth it rather to be vnaunswerable Tim. 6.5 As for the words The Apostle saying from such separate thy self if now you would know from whom Himself telleth it as plaine as may be If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines c. from such separate thy self vers 3. But such is your case in particular As hath ben proved in your Prelacy and the other abominations of Antichrist yet taught and mainteyned among you Therefore are we bound by this rule of the Apostle to separate our selves from you Els should we aunswer it to God at that day Of your continuall vayne distinctions of fundamentally wholy presumptuously simply c. ynough is said alreadie in the handling of the for mer Reasons As also of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs Whom here you set before vs againe as coleworts not twise but ten tymes sodden Leave this vsage of them Mr Iacob for they have left you long synce See before Pag. 40.41 Next you tell vs we may ioyne with you and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them Prove this and you say somewhat But I doubt we shall find you as slow in proving as you are rash in speaking Mind but these particulars following which I will name for example Can we receive your Priesthood from the Prelates or execute it vnder them Can we ioyne to your Service book or anie part of your worship and Ministery Can we receive the word or Sacraments from your Ministers in that constitution Can we remaine members of your confused Assemblyes Can we stand subiect to your Prelates and their Courts Canons censures c. Can we I say do these or anie of them and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them In your next Reply Mr Iacob declare vs this riddle if you can And in the meane tyme I will attribute it to your distempered conceit that you do thus every foot forget and contradict your self and yet discerne it not But what will you say too if such as ioyne with you in anie part of your worship suppose it be the best become thereby partakers of your whole worship and constitution even of the worst things that are among you therein To make it plaine and certaine vnto you mynd these proofs In Israell †1 Cor. 10.18 they that did eate of the sacrifices as “ 2 Sam. 1.4.5 the people might were thereby partakers of the whole Iewish religion yea even of the altar Vnto which yet they might not come at all but the Priest onelie Lev. 1. chap. c. Numb 18.7 Luc. 1.9.10 In Corinth the Christians that abhorred Idols and Idolatry yet when after the sacrifices were offred * 1 Cor. 10 14-22 8.4.10 they sate but in the Idol Temples to eat of the meats that had ben sacrificed which in †1 Cor. 10.25.26.27 other places they might have done became thereby partakers of the whole Idolatrous wprship though they were not present at it but as they thought abhorred it In like maner they which connnunicate in anie part of your worship become thereby partakers and guiltie of the whole though it may be neither you nor they so think So false it is which here you give out that we may ioine with some of your worship and Ministery and yet towch no part of your Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give them allowance For the Papists to omit that you aunswer not what I obiected you see and graunt readily that they are no true Christians but very Antichrists c. Yet for your selves though your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people false doctrines c. be meerlie Popish and Antichristian you will not see and acknowledge it Take heed least when you see yet you wink with your eyes and though you vnderstand yet you harden your heart because you will not be converted and healed Esa 6.9.10 Act. 28.26.27 For the question between vs let the Reader iudge how I have proved it and how you have quitted your self and your Churches Where you say the points of false doctrine in your Church are most falsly laid to your charge all may see here againe you have an hard forehead to deny anie thing and yet are so sottish you can prove nothing But you say you list not meddle with them at this present I easily beleev you They are so pregnant against you as it is no marvell if you have no list to do it Otherwise you shew list ynough to medle with anie thing that you think may cary any show against vs. But you must mynd the point is not what you list but what you ought to meddle withall You have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches in the estate wherein now they stand Therefore must you aunswer aswell for the false doctrines as for the true mainteined in your Church Els would the Papists iustify their case against you well ynough For this cause then must you aunswer aswell for your Book of cōmon prayer and other your books of Articles Canons Iniunctions c. as for that book of Articles which was published in the yeare 1562. For they conteine the doctrine and
constitution of your Church aswell as the other if not also more They are publiklie authorised among you aswell as the other whether you respect the Prelates and Clergy in the Conuocation house or the whole body of the Land in the Parliament They are generallie receyved professed and practised of all the people in every Parish and Cathedrall Church throughout the Land aswell as the other Yea and more too your selves being witnesses One of your owne Prophets Mr Giff. Di. of the strife of the Church Pag. 100. writing of your estate saith There be thousands which be men and women growen that if a man aske them how they shall be saved they cannot tell Neither can your felf deny this to be true How do they then know and professe the faith of your book of Articles Or will you say they are as ignorant of your Service-book and of your Prelates other Articles Iniunctions Courts c. vnto which they ioyne and submit dayly Either therefore you must meddle with the false doctrines and other publik books of your Church aswell as with that book of Articles whereof you speak or els you meddle not at all with the question between vs neither defend your Churches estate The question between vs is Whether the truths you professe together with the false doctrines and abominations of Antichrist retained among you do make you true Churches and I true Christiās in that estate If you keep not to this point you may make as faire a plea for the Church of Rome and all other Hereticks whilest you meddle not with their errors and false doctrines but looke onely at the truths they professe Mynd but the Papists profession concerning Christ and his full and sufficient satisfaction for all our sinnes whereof I spake before Pag. 47. And consider now with your self how well and soundlie you have defended your Churches estate How your doctrine and constitution erreth fundamentally I have declared before Pag. 22. 114. 147. But now though you have no list to meddle with your Churches doctrine yet let vs see in your next Reply if your list will be to deale with your owne Your owne I say which I had from your self and take to be private to your self I had it from you in a Conference which passed “ between you and me April 3. 1597 in the presence of divers that can witnesse it Yet for more certainty and better remembrance I desired and obteined of you to write it downe your self So you gave it me then vnder your hand in writing which I have with me yet to shew Thus it is word for word A power borrowed from Antichrist to excommunicate may externally be committed vnto a people vsed by them who have power to excommunitate from Christ Henry Iacob When you had thus set it downe I desired your proof of it from the Scriptures But none could be had I could not obteine that at your hands Therevpon I tooke the paper and wrote vnderneath your assertion thus This is against the Scriptures 1 Cor. 5.4.5 compared with 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 Ezech. 43.8 Mat. 18.17.18.19.20 1 King 18.21 Fran Iohnson It is a good while Mr Iacob synce this passed between vs and like that you have had leysure ynough to consider of it all this tyme. Therefore in your next I hope you will have some list to meddle with this doctrine of your owne though you have none at all for your Churches Yet for the doctrines of your Church also because I am fallen into the mention of them againe let me put you in mynd of two things mo Mat. 13.24 c. The first is towching the parable of the tares spoken of before Pa. 158. of which because it is straungelie and daylie perverted among you for the maintenance of your confused and wicked estate therefore will I here in particular adde a word or two more besides that which I annexed before for the further explication of this point and conuiction of your error As first that you do consider with your selves if with this parable agree not also the Apostles doctrine where he calleth the Church the house of God and saith that in this house are not onelie vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earth and that as some of them be for honor so some be also to dishonor from which therefore if anie purge himself he shal be a vessel vnto honor sanctifyed and meet for the Lord and prepared to every good work 1 Tim 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2.16.17.18.19.20.21 3.5 Next that howsoever the parable be vnderstood by anie whether of 1 the generall estate of the Church from the beginning of the world to the end thereof how Sathan alway hath his tares his wicked ones sometymes more open sometymes more secret even as God alway hath his righteous children and servants vntill the day of that finall and everlasting separacion Mat. 13.35.40 2 Or the particular estate of the Church in the tyme of Antichrists apostasy wrought by Sathan vntill the discovery and full abolition thereof 2 Thes 2 3.-14 3 Or the Churches continuall being and cōversing in the world with the children of the wicked Which they must needs do or els they must go out of the world as the Apostle affirmeth 1 Cor. 5.9.10 Howsoever I say the parable be vnderstood whether of these or any the like yet doth it no way make for the receiving or reteining of the knowen wicked whosoever they be in the body of the Church The scope of the parable by these interpretations also leading to no such thing but onelie to comfort and instruct the godlie how to carry themselves with patience and wisdome in such estate of things in the world And the Apostle whose doctrine doubtles is not contrarie to Christs teacheth expressely in that place to the Corinthians and the other mentioned before both that the Church is a distinct body separated from the world not partaking in their evill wayes and that if anie of the Church will not so walk but commit iniquity and repent not that then they be so far from being suffred to grow or remaine any longer in the Church as they be forthwith cast out of it and delivered vnto Sathan the Prince of the world and children of disobedience even the Enemy that soweth the tares here spoken of And thus also was the Apostles practise For both which that is both his doctrine and practise herein see these Scriptures 1 Cor. 5. chap. 2 Cor. 2 6-11 6 14.-17 Act. 19.9 Ro. 16.17 Ephes 2.1.2 Gal. 5.12 2 Thes 3.6.14 1 Tim. 1.20 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2 16-21 3.5 4.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.38.39 To conclude then albeit that such having crept into the Church do both before and after their excommunication as do also the other of the world who never received the faith offend and trouble the Church and children of the kingdome yea and do often flourish also in outward
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs
do it from all And for your resistance whether it be such as you speak of or not we leave to the Lord who knoweth the hearts and wayes of all men It sufficeth vs as it did the Apostles and must do the servants of God in all ages that the Reasons of separation include and belong vnto you all even all your Churches Ministers and people in that estate As I haue declared before throughout this Treatise Towching the conclusion Therefore vntill you prove the contrarie which will never be mark what I say the Paradox still remaineth vpon you and your Church Towching the reformed Churches some of * your selves men of far better iudgement and learning then Mr Iacob have confessed and published In the first Admonition to the Parl. that you have all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome against you And further that you have an Antichristian Hierarchy and Popish ordering of Ministers straunge from the word of God and the vse of all well reformed Churches in the world Yet you like blind Bayard sticke not boldlie to say to the contrarie that all men know they hold communion with you as Churches of God First then reconcile your self Mr Iacob with your fellow Reformists at home And then your Churches Hierarchy and constitution with the Ministerie and constitution of the reformed Churches abroad And remember here that the Ministery of those Churches is not esteemed sufficient by yours As the Priesthood of Rome is The proof of both which you may see in the answer to Mr A.H. Pag. 96. With whether of these then I pray you do you hold communion Or do you not in deed halt as newters between both Mynd further that Mr Beza whose iudgement you know is worthilie reverenced and approved in all the reformed Churches speaking but of fower or five of your corruptions affirmeth that in the Antichristian Church there is nothing more intolerable Bez. Epist. 8. yea that your case being so it is not a corrupcion of Christianitie but in deed a manifest defection from Christ His owne words I noted before Pag. 73. Now when themselves do thus witnes and write of your estate how should anie think that they hold communion with you as the Churches of God vnles you could prove they do also hold it the Church of God which standeth in manifest defection from Christ I know in deed that you have long deceived them by the Apology which you published for your selves against the Papists In which you concealed from them all your corruptions and abominations By meanes whereof not hauing knowledge of the truth of your estate they have therevpon for a tyme thought much better of it then it doth deserve or will beare As even some among them alreadie vpon better information synce have acknowledged But of this matter and of your dealing therein Reason 6 I have written alreadie †in the answer to Mr T. C. And therefore for these things I do still refer you as I did The Answer to Mr Hild. such as it is now is published And so may the answer to Mr Cartw. be in tyme speciallie seing you do thus provoke therevnto In the meane tyme divers copies thereof are abroad in mens hands In which as also in the ‡ other Treatise A â—revisâ—o â—f the Minist of Engl. Pag 67. 68. 69. I have noted in sundrie particulars the testimonie of the reformed Churches against your present estate You Mr Iacob may account of these or anie other our writings as you please Your toungue is no sclaunder Yet till we be answered and that soundlie from the word of God all men of conscience will see and mynd how you bring nothing at all in defence of your Churches and Ministerie but frivolous and wandring words Next followeth our owne acknowledgement to be discussed For towching that bloody mind and speach of yours when you say if we be troubled for witnessing against your Church estate none can pitty our imprisonnement banishement c. I leave you and it vnto God a See the like before Pag. 112. who seeth and will iudge Onelie let the Reader note here “ againe that not the Prelates alone but you also the forward preachers and professors have wittinglie and willinglie your hand in our blood Mr Barrow is the first you name Whom together with Mr Greenwood you †At Tyâ—um by London in the yeare 1593. Apr. 6. killed in time of Parliament that the ages present and to come may know it was done with knowledge of the whole Land In all his speach there is not one word that the members of your Church are true Christians in that estate He testifyed vnto death and sealed with his blood that you do all stand in Antichristian estate I think your self will not be so shameles as to deny it Now in his speach here alledged by your self marke fower things which all do shew it is against you 1. That speaking of the Martyrs false offices and corruptions he deemeth them saved notwithstanding through the mercy of God which superabounded above their sinnes c. By which is evident that he thought them vnder the wrath of God in respect of their false offices corruptions had not the mercy of God superabounded above those their sinnes For mercy you know presupposeth misery and superaboundance thereof a great measure of sinne 2. He intimateth as if he thought that these their sinnes were vnseen of them as doubtles they were of manie of them yea and of all of them as towching that measure of knowledge which God hath synce by his word revealed therein 3. He declareth that he was far from cutting of all among you as Mr Gifford suggested from Gods election or from Christ Where marke that he speaketh of Gods election vnder which we also trust that manie of you are not of your present outward estate In his Disco of the false Church Ref. of Mr Giff. Conferen c In respect whereof here he saith the servants of Christ may iustlie deny you in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church A case very wofull and miserable Yet adde herevnto that which ‡ els where often he testifyed that your Ministery worship estate are Antichristian c. For which cause he could not ioine with you in such estate but separated from you and witnessed this against you vnto death himself so signifying at the very tyme and place of his execution So far was he from iudging you to be in that estate true Christians To make the case yet more plaine know that we dare not condeÌ„ne them of the Church of Rome with any such peremptorie sentence as Mr Giffard accuseth vs to cutt them all from Gods election or from Christ Doth it therefore follow that in the constitution of there Church we iudge them true Christians Nothing lesse Yet thus you shame not to reason 4. He asketh what now should let that we should not have the same hope as of the Martyrs
where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false
ecclesiasticall offices 2. the maner of calling vnto the offices 3. a great part of the works wherein these false offices are imployed 4. the maintenance or livings whereby they are maynteined in their offices All which I will be bound to prove by the Lords help to be derived not from Iesus Christ but from the kingdome of Antichrist his great enemy And therefore forasmuch as I can not be partaker of the former holy things of God but I must be subiect vnto the power of Antichrist in these officers and knowen by those marks whereby his subiects are noted therefore I am enforced bound to seek the comfort of the word and Sacraments where I may have them without the submitting of my self vnto any ecclesiasticall power in Religion save onely vnto that which is derived from Christ Iesus the Lord in whom all fulnes of power dwelleth Col. 1.19 and from whom all those must derive their power and office vnto whom the Saincts of God are to submit their consciences to be wrought vpon in Religion Againe seing the aforenamed 4. enormityes of this Church are marks which properly belong vnto the Kingdome of the Beast that is the Romane Antichrist we dare not have any communion and fellowship with them nor be knowen by them least we shovld be partakers of those most fearfull most dreadfull iudgements which are denounced by the Spirit of God against all those that have communion with any of the irreligious inventions of the Beast Rev. 14.9.10 These are the things together with the want of Christs true order which I especially mislike and the speciall causes why I dare not ioyne with the Assemblyes of this Land c. Thus was his aunswer In which you may see how he professeth your Church offices and estate to be such as he dare not ioine therewith both because they are not derived from CHRist IEsus the LOrd of his Church and for that they belong to the kingdome and body of Antichrist and are marks of that Beast against which and all that partake therewith God hath denounced most fearfull iudgements in his word Vnto these most playne declarations of his mynd I might adde many mo out of his letters and other writings But what needeth it whenas the laying downe of his life in testimony against the Antichristian estate of your Church is and will be alway as a thousand witnesses against you whatsoever you pretend otherwise And now Mr Iacob let me vpon this occasion aske you this question whether you think Mr Barrow Mr Greenwood Mr Penry c. dyed Martyrs and witnesses of the truth against your Antichristian estate or whether you account them evill doers iustlie deserving to be put to death The thing is a publik actiō and cōcerneth the publik state of your Church which you would seem to defend Therefore is it needfull that you declare your mynd fullie and plainlie therein which yet I think you will be loth to do You love so to walke in darkenes and yet would seem to defend your Church when in deed you do nothing lesse Next you alledge myne owne acknowledgement to Mr Philips and your self for the approbation of your estate Of which being also obiected before I have spoken already Pag. 41. To it therefore I refer you Yet before I end this point I will note here three things more for the Reader to observe The first is towching Mr Barrow Mr Penry and my self that seing you spare not to wrest our words whose meaning all men know and our owne practise proclaymeth we can not therefore look for any other at your hands but that you will much more pervert the Scriptures and word of God about the meaning whereof men make so manie doubts and controversyes from tyme to tyme. The second is towching your owne words in these Replyes That whereas in the Conclusion of your first Reply Pag. 156. you sayd we our selves acknowledged your Assumption to be true now in the Conclusion of your second Reply Pag. 167. you chaunge your owne words and say we acknowledged your publik doctrine would and did make many of you true Christians By which you cleare vs and contradict your self For if your Assumption were true then not onelie many but all and every member of your Church should thereby be deemed true Christians as towching their outward estate even all your Prelates Priests Dumbe dogs Non-residents Thieves Coniurers c. Which you may speak with shame ynough Sure I am none of vs did ever acknowledge it and I trust never shall The third is concerning some things spoken to me in the presence of others at one tyme by Mr Philips whom here you name and at another tyme by your self Of Mr Philips when once he had speach with me about our cause I asked If her Maiesty should permit both that way wherein the Prelates and you now are and the way wherein we are to be free for all men to walke in eyther of them as they should be perswaded In which of the two then he would walke himself as being perswaded it was the truth of God Wherevnto he aunswered that then he thought he should walke in the way wherein we are Of your self also among other things once I asked this Whether you were so mynded for the Ministery which Christ hath appointed in his Church as you thought you ought and would dy for it God assisting you To which you answered Yea. Therevpon presentlie I asked agayne Whether you were so mynded for the Ministery of the CHurch of ENgland as you thought you ought would also dy for it To which you answered No. If now Mr Iacob I would presse conclusions out of Mr Philips words and your owne as you do out of myne and others might I not gather from your selves far better then you do or can anie thing from vs that in your consciences you see your Churches estate and Ministery to be vnlawfull and none of Christs at all But I spare you The Martyrs whom next you alledge I shewed to be against you by their owne testimony Vnto this you answer That it maketh stronger against vs seing although they misliked the Hierarchy yet they themselves refused not to communicate and partake with them then as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. But are you in deed so simple as not to perceyve that this is of no moment at all What if the Papists should so answer when we bring against them the testimonie of the auncient Martyrs towching the Masse the Hierarchy Auricular confession and other corruptions of that Church Or are you ignorant that * See before Pag. 44.45 Iohn Hus Iohn wickleffe William Swinderby and manie other of the Martyrs in elder tyme did in these things communicate with the Popish Church vnto their dying day If this aunswer then be frivolous for them in such case how should it not be likewise in yours Besides that you may by this reasō perswade aswell to communicate with the Popish
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is exalted above lifted vp set before or as we vsually speak Prelate 2. Thes 2.4 11. How it can be then that Pastors should be made by the Prelates as here he taketh for graunted Men surelie do not gather grapes of thornes nor figs of thistles Neither hath the throne of iniquitie which forgeth wrong for a Law fellowship with the Lord. And whatsoever be preteÌ„ded to the contrary certaine it is that Christ and Antichrist cannot accord together Mat. 7.16 Psal 94.20 2 Cor. 6.14.15 To the end therefore that the Reader may better perceive Mr Iacobs corrupt dealing it will not be amisse brieflie to note here out of their owne Pontificall and practise how the Ministers he speaketh of are made by the Prelates 1. First they are made Deacons or half Priests whose duty is to read the book of Common prayer and Homilyes to minister Baptisme to assist the Priest at divine service and if he have the Prelates licence to preach withall 2. Then after a yeares service in that Deaconship or such tyme as pleaseth the Ordinary comming to be made full Priests they are preseÌ„ted to the Lordbishop or his Suffragane by an ArchdeacoÌ„ or his deputy saying Note this Point of blasphemy For now Christ alone hath the Ministery of Priesthood that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is such as can not passe froÌ„ him vnto another Heb. 7.23.24 Reverend father in God I present these persons present to be admitted to the Order of Priesthood 3 The Prelate then saith to such as be there be they his Serving meÌ„ or any other that happen to come that way Good people these be they whom we purpose God willing to receive this day vnto the holy Office of Priesthood c. 4. None of them shewing anie impediment to the contrary the Clerks and people present say or sing the Letany c. And the Prelate readeth over a number of Collects and stinted prayers taken out of the Popes poÌ„tificall with an exhortation an Epistle and Gospell wherein they abuse and pervert the Scripture 5. The Prelate demaundeth of them thus Do you think in your heart that you be truly called according to the will of our Lord Iesus Christ and the order of this Church of EnglaÌ„d to the * Ministery of Priesthood And the partyes to be ordeined then aunswer every one for himself I think it 6. After other questions and aunswers about the sufficiency of the Scriptures c. wherein they condemne themselves the Prelate asketh if they will reverently obey their Ordinary and other chief Ministers of the Church that is the Lordbishop of the Dioces where they live the Archbishop Archdeacon Chauncelor Commissary and the rest of that Antichristian Hierarchy They make aunswer againe every one of them saying I will so do the Lord being my helper 7. Then the Bishop readeth a prayer for them that they may have strength and power to performe the same and desireth the congregation secretly in their prayers to make humble supplications to God for the foresaid things For the which prayers there is a certayne space kept in silence Note this mystery 8. After a while the Prelate prayeth againe in such wise as is set downe vnto him in the book being not able belike otherwise to coÌ„ceive any prayer himself 9. When this is done the Prelate with the Priests present lay their hands severallie vpon the head of every one that receiveth orders the receivers humblie kneeling vpon their knees and the Prelate saying vnto them * Note here againe blasphemy Receyve the holy Ghost whose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven and whose sinnes thou doest retaine they are retained c. 10. Then is sung the Creed and they go to the communion they that received orders being appointed to tary and receive the communion with the Bishop the same day and remaining in the †Well fare all good tokens same place where the hands were laid vpon them c. So testifying that they are of the same faith and body with the Prelates who are knowen to be notable persecuters of the truth and very Antichrists themselves 11. Now being thus made Priests and yet I omit many like things that might be noted out of their Book and practise for it were endles to recount all they pay for their letters of orders Which they must also have in a readines at all tymes to shew whensoever there shall be occasion for better assurance that they have received the Beasts mark And if now they be to enter vpon a benefice or whensoever that day cometh for which they are now prepared to day afore to morrow then there is yet further required that they have the presentation of the Patrone who perhaps is a Papist or an Atheist or a child or the like and the institution of the Lord-bishop who without question is an Antichrist Ephes 4.5 1 Cor. 12. â—5 with 1 Pet. 2.25 5.3.4 The true Church hath but * one Lordbishop the Lord Iesus Christ All other Lordbishops are Antichrists 12. Lastly being thus ordered presented instituted and having sworne Canonicall obedience to the Prelates now whether the people will or not they are and must be their Priests and have charge of their soules And both themselves their Ministery and people remaine subiect to the Prelates and to their Antichristian courts power jurisdiction c. This is the case of all the Priests even of them that have the most and best acceptance of the people whereof he speaketh And would any now have thought that the Prelates making and the peoples accepting of Priests being such Mr Iacob would be so sencelesse as to perswade that these are true and lawfull Pastors Might he not aswell tell vs that a cleane thing may be brought out of filthines yea that Christ may be made to agree with Antichrist Which both Scripture and experieÌ„ce teacheth can never be Iob. 14.4 2 Cor. 6.15 Eyther therefore let him make the tree good Mat. 12.33 and his fruit good or els make the tree evill and his fruit evill If the Prelates and their functions be Antichristian and were never but nought then such must needs be the Ministery derived and received from them But so it is with the Prelates even himself being witnes who both yeelded it * Pag. 92. before And here agayne in playne termes confesseth that the calling received from them is vnlawfull By this it is too evident that the light of the truth shineth in his coÌ„scieÌ„ce howsoever he strive against it Therefore will I not now further vrge it hoping that himself in tyme will better mynd it In the meane tyme let the Reader note it And withall that this calling by the Prelates which he yeeldeth to be vnlawfull is the onely calling which by Law is ratifyed and allowed in that Church And doth not Mr Iacob then whiles he saith notwithstanding they are true and lawfull Pastors speak riddles and contradict himself These things
into prison and so deteined vnto death or otherwise evill intreated as both your prisons and so me yet alive are able to testify Synce which tyme your persecution hath increased far more even vnto exile and death vpon such as refuse to joine to your Hierarchy worship and other abominations of Antichrist by your Law then established How absurd then is it to pretend for your estate the reformations of Hezekiah Manasseh Iosiah c. Of which the Scripture testifyes that God gave the people one heart to do the cōmaundement of the King and of the Rulers according to the word of the Lord. 2 Chron. 30.12 And who knoweth not that these Kings did both abolish the false worship and Ministery which before tyme had ben in their Kingdomes and did in stead thereof establish that true worship and Ministery which God by Moses had ordeined 2 King 18.6 23.25 2 Chron. 29. 30. 31. 33. 34. 35. chap. Besides that those Churches consisted of people separated frō the world and willinglie submitting thēselves to the Lord as these Scriptures also do testify 2 Chron. 15.8.9.12 30.11.12 2 King 23.2.3 with Exod. 19 5-8 Lev. 20.24.26 Howsoever then being set in the way of God and walking therein they had their blemishes and imperfections yea and evill men arising among them as the best Churches on earth are alway subiect to have yet this is nothing eyther for such cōmaundemēt of Rulers as is not according to the word of God or for your Churches estate which from the beginning to this day neyther are separated from the world nor have the true Ministery and worship appointed by Christ but stand both in confusion with the most prophane and in subiection to the Hierarchy and worship of the man of sinne Otherwise the ten Tribes of Israell might justify their defection and the Romish Babylon her filthyest apostasy by such pretences For your people at the beginning of her Majestyes raigne you alledge 1. that they did not all generally want all knowledge and all faith I do willinglie graunt it But doth it therefore follow that your Assemblyes are true Churches rightlie gathered according to the ordinance of Christ Then by the same reason conclude the publik Assemblyes heretofore in Q. Maryes tyme and now in Rome and the rest of Italy Spayne Fraunce c. to be true Churches right lie gathered because their people neyther did nor do all generally want all knowledge and all faith But your people had then had in many places the word taught books scattered much conference daily consultations and disputations and the blood of Martyrs preaching vnto them aloud lately before All these being grāted yet they are so far from excusing your sinnes as even therefore it is far the greater inasmuch as by this it should seem you knew better and yet neyther did it then neyther do it yet vnto this day And so you are in the sinne and vnder the judgement spoken of in these Scriptures Iam. 4.17 Tit. 1.16 Ier. 6.16 Luk. 12.47.48 Let him that readeth mynd it well And this too that you speak not of the whole Land and all your Churches but onely of some places and persons such as had the books conference and disputations you speak of Pag. 3.6 Whereas your * former defence speaketh of your Churches as they are established by Law and therefore of them all 2. Next you alledge that there was more then half a yeare viz. “ from November to Midsomer for the people to heare learne and consider before the commandement came so that it was not suddayne neyther can be counted compulsion c. But know you not Mr Iacob 1. That it neyther was neyther could possibly be as you pretend that the people in that tyme throughout the Land should be taught Yet at Midsomer were all constrayned to receiv it whether they did so beleev or not 2. That this tyme was appointed not for the peoples instruction that so vpon konwledge they might do what was enjoyned but that in this tyme the Statute being knowen throughout the Land they should then do as was appointed howsoever they were perswaded thereof in themselves This I prove 1. Because the Priests and people that would were suffred by Law all that halfe yeares space to say and heare Masse as before Which I trow you will not say was to heare learne and consider as here you alledge 2. Because when Midsomer came they were bound to receyv and so did what was published for their faith worship Ministery c. howsoever eyther themselves were perswaded or the things imposed did agree or disagree with the word of God But now I would know what you will say to this that all your former pleading was from your Articles agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. and here you make your plea from your peoples estate in the yeare 1558. for then began her Majestyes reygne which I pray God long to continew and prosper If your professiō of those Articles made you now true Churches which before you were not how were your Assemblyes then rightly gathered so many yeares before as here you pretend Or if you were not true constituted Churches at that Midsomer you speak of here how could those Articles effect it being afterward agreed vpon not by your Churches See the title of those Art but by your Priests neyther by all of them but onelie by your Archbishops and Bishops and such other of your Clergy as were with them in the Convocation holden at London in the yeare 1562. If to this last point you say this agreement of your Prelates and Clergy was then published through the Land and so you count it as the agreement and ordinance of your whole Church then must you graunt withall that the Antichristian Canons Iniunctions Articles Advertissements c. agreed vpō at the same and like Convocations and likewise published are also the agreement and ordinance of your whole Church And so your Churches estate and profession is to be considered not by those Articles onelie of 1562. but by the rest likewise agreed vpō among you from tyme to tyme. Thus all your defence is found to be full of deceit and contradictiō every where But it may be in your next wee shall know your mynd better In the meane tyme we answer what you desier to know of vs viz That we condemne not reformation commaunded compelled by the Magistrate but do vnfeynedlie desier that God would put into the heart of her Maiesty and all other Princes within their Dominions to cōmaund and cōpell a reformation according to the word of the Lord As it is expressely noted that Hezekiah and other the good Kings of Iudah did 2 Chron. 30.12 2 King 18.6 23.25 2 Chron. 17.3.4.5.6 We acknowledge with thanks to God and her Maiesty that out of her Highnes Dominions there be alreadie abolished manie of the abominations of the Romish Babylon And we pray God that forasmuch as many of
it is appeareth not onely in the receyving and retayning in your Church the most profane of the Land and their seed yea and constreyning all whosoever in every Parish to be members thereof but is confessed also by your selves on all hands as I shewed * before Pag. 16. 2â— by testimony both of the Prelates and of the Reformists who do both of them testefy that your Church swarmeth with Whoremongers Drunkards Lyars Extortioners Blasphemers Sorcerers and other wicked persons Now say your self if these be not notorious dissolute and wicked Or if your Church abound not with such eveÌ„ to this day How were they then reclaymed c. as you pretend And how was your Church rightly gathered according to Gods ordinance Are these fit stones for the Lords Temple fit servants for the Lords house fit members for the body of Christ Whatsoever you think such estate is before God intolerable and by his word vnwarrantable .. Learne it by these and the like Scriptures 1. Pet. 2.5.9 1. Timoth 3.15 Zach. 14.21 Esa 35.8.9 1. Cor. 12.27 But you say we have likewise received bankrupts knowen bad men ignorant c. 1. If it were so would our sinne justifie yours 2. Neither in deed is it so as you charge vs. Knowen bad men we receive none at all By bankrupts if you meane such as are not able to pay their debts and do therefore think that they are not to be received or retained members of a true Church you do therein too much bewray your ignorance The Scripture teacheth that the true feare of God and want of ability to pay a mans debts may meet together in the same partie 2. King 4.1 Levit. 25.35 c. And who knoweth not that it is a triall wherewith God sometymes exerciseth his dearest children Iam. 2.5 with 2 King 4.1 c. Not to speak how there gathered to David who was a type of Christ in many things that befell him all that were in distresse debt and troubled in mynd c. 1. Sam. 22.2 Yet notwithstanding if any shall wilfully runne into debt not caring what they borrow so they may get it Rom. 13.8 with 2 King 4.7 neither making conscience to paie againe though they be able such do both break the commaundement of God which sayth vnto all †Owe nothing to any man but to love one another and are therefore by the Prophet accounted for wicked persons The wicked saith he borroweth and payeth not againe Psalm 37.21 Now any that are knowen to be such we neither receive nor retaine Yet you know yourselves it is common among you And what power hath your Church to redresse it if you would Towching ignorant men you have our mynd †before And as we are mynded Pag. 201. so do we practise Remembring alway that which is written of Christ our Lord A bruised reed shall he not break and smoking flax shall he not quench c. Esa 42.3 Math. 12.20.21 Where you adde further that we do still retayne men full of contention and bitter strife it is also vntrue For although with such men we have ben exercised as the Church on earth is alway subject to be that they which are approved may be knowen Yet neither is it any other thing then the Primitive Churches even in the tyme of the Apostles them selves did susteine as the ‡ i Cor. 3.3 Scripture here alledged by your self and * Act. 20.30 1. Cor. 11.16.19 Gal. 5.12.15 other the like do testifie and when such persoÌ„s and dealing once be manifest we cast them out from among vs and avoide them according to the rules prescribed in the word of God Gal. 5.12 1. Cor. 5.11.12 and 11.16 Rom. 16.17 Mat. 17.18 And yet even then when they are hardned and please them selves in strife and contentioÌ„ they may both be received and reteined members of your Church any of them that will come to your false worship and so returne to their former vomit againe That which followeth in the last place for the shutting vp of this matter when you say That which disanulleth not a Church gathered c. is directly against your self For seing confusion and commixture with the world and wicked thereof in one body of a Church will disanul and make voide a Church alredy gathered and setled how much more shall it there where a Church is but a gathering and beginning If we could imagine that to be a gathering of a Church which leaveth it still in confusion with the world and bondage to Antichrist Now that such mixtures with the profane will disanull Churches before gathered aright you may see by that which is written Gen. 6.2 c. Ezech. 16. chap. and 22.26 and 44.6.7.8 And in the Churches that were at Rome Ephesus Corinth c. Rev. 13.16 and 17.1 and 18.1 and 18.2 being compared with Rom. 1.7.2 Cor. 6.14 c. Thus all your aunswer is in a word taken away But further mynd here a contradiction with your self For now you graunt which before you denyed that your Church is commingled of all sorts of people having mixtures of profane and dissolute with the rest that are better among you The Scriptures you quote I have shewed ♣ before how you do pervert them Pag. 195. And thus much of the second particular The third was that you remaine in bondage to Antichristian Offices Courts c. This you graunt to be your generall sinne Which is directlie to give the cause For they which stand in bondage to Antichrist cannot possibly in such estate have also the power and libertie of Christ eyther for choise of Officers or for any other action to be performed by the power and in the Name of the Lord Iesus Thus having given the cause yet fearing belike to yeeld too much to the truth you labour still to lessen and excuse your sinne as much as you can Now you alledge that it is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience And thus may all sinne be pleaded for except the sinne against the holy Ghost Thus might Nadab and Abihu justifie their straunge fier Corach Dathan and Abiram their vsurping of the Priests office the Ten Tribes their desertion the Papists all their abominations Hymenaâ—s and Philetus all their impieties and finally all Hereticks and lewd persons their heresies and bad dealing Next you tell vs of sinnes that are against the foundation or not against it of the Iewish Church of the auncyent declining Bishops Cyprian c. of King Edwards dayes M. Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. of your Churches and Ministers generally that you are not all convicted c. These pretences are all aunswered before in the former Treatise Mynd now withall that the sinne of the later Bishops synce the exaltation of Antichrist is far more grievous then was the sinne of the other that were before that tyme hath because the Mystery of that iniquitie is now more more fully disclosed which then was more hid and secret and because these
later have seen before their eyes the mischief that followed vpō that declining which the other of former time neither did nor could Adde herevnto the great vnlikenes when they are compared together in their Offices Entrance Titles prerogatives Courts Canons Iurisdiction and other procedings And tell me why you left out Cyprian in your printed Book whō you named in your written copy for which cause I have now also noted his Name with the rest Is it so that you see alreadie how he is against you Assure your self Mr Iacob that so will the rest also be found lesse or more I alway except the Prelates of Rome whensoever due triall and comparison is made Which I neither need nor purpose here to stand vpon seing these things are purposely hādled and alreadie published by others well knowen and approved also of your selves as by Mr Beza against Saravia T. C. his 1. and 2. Reply The Demonstration c. I omit also that yours are become persecuters whereas the other were persecuted Therefore your sinne is far the greater And many other things I might alledge but it sufficeth vs and hereon we rest that your Prelacy and other Ministery Worship c. are none of Christs ordinances appointed in his word If you be other wise mynded prove it by the book of God Ioh. 17.17 Psa 119.105 Esa 8.20 You know that †it alone is the word of truth and ought to be vnto all the lāterne of our feet Hence forth therefore speak according to that word and seek not by the lesse sinnes of others to hide and nourish your owne far greater Otherwise remember and applie to your selves the judgement that is written Exod. 20.5 Ps 129.21 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 22 18.19 And note these things withall 1. First That here you speak of such as live and dy in your errors ignorantly Now what defence is this for your self Mr Iacob and for all the rest of your Church throughout the Land who do not onelie know these errors but have also taught professed and witnessed against them heretofore 2. Secondly that here you are glad to vse the same pretences as rusty weapons against the truth which were sometymes vsed by D. Whitgift and the Papists for defence of the Prelacy and found to be of no force at all 3. Thirdly that whatsoever you speak here in excuse of your conviction may be likewise alledged by the Papists and other Hereticks for defence of them selves viz that they are not all cōvicted sinne against their cōscience also that such and such points are not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one among them that many of them and not of the simplest hold their way to be the onely true and right course and almost all of them to be indifferent and lawfull very few and scarce any that see it to be meerly wicked and intolerable Yet these are the reasons and armour of proof you bring for defence of your Hierarchie and Church-estate And what should I speak of your manifold contradictions fearfull clauses notable vntruthes c. Your cōtradictions as when you graunt here Pag. 28. 61 This is your generall sinne and yet said before you held these to be Christs ordinances Your pretended excuse that you speak some things in your owne person some things in your Churches I have shewed before to be vayne and against your self Pag. 55. 56. 72. Another contradiction in that you professe the auncyent Bishops and yours have declyned viz from the truth and way of Christ or els tell vs in your next from what and yet plead as if your Church generally were eyther ignorant hereof or held your present governement to be the onely true and right kind or at least to be indifferent and lawfull c. For how I pray you can these stand together If you say your self know thus much but as for any others that know it they are very few and searse to be found these I take it are your owne words this is but a vaine conceit of your self and such as is still accompanied with folly There are no doubt a thousand to you who are but one that know these things aswell or better a great deale Yea I know manie of your Church my self who have taught and writtē far more soundly and godly of them then ever Mr Iacob did And if these had all held their peace yet your Book of common prayer as grosse as it is knoweth thus much ‡ In the Commination that in the Primitive Church there was a godly disclpline which it saith is much to be wished that it might be restored agayne The particular there mentioned I stand not vpon I note it onelie for this that you may see even by that book received among you generally how your Church neither is so ignorant of the estate of things in former tymes as you pretend neither thinketh your present government to be the onelie true kind c. Not to speak of your so manie and so publik suites to the Parliament to have it removed as being vnlawfull and Antichristian Neither of the many books printed with Priviledge avowching as much A third contradiction till you cleare it better note in this also that you acknowledge they in K. Edw. tyme were godly learned and yet insinuate withall as if they were litle better then tyme-servers Your fearfull clauses importing partlie a yeelding of the cause partly a seeking of starting holes and excuses for your sinne As when you say 1. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversity of sinnes 2. All sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ 3. This sinne of outward Church-orders is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience 4. There are sinnes wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved 5. No greater is now in our Bishops presently especially towching our Churches and Ministers too generally 6. If you say we are all convicted now it is false 7. The godly learned Protestants in King Edwards tyme were not vtterly ignorant of this poynt of reformation 8. The Iewes were not generally plainely convicted 9. Our Assemblyes are not all godles and profane Our sinne destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole Assemblyes c. As if your self thought it did in some Your notable vntruths also are many as when you alledge Mr Beza vpō Act. 15.20 as if he spake of such Iewes as did personally hate and persecute Christ where as he speaketh expressely of such as beleved in Christ but were withall zealous of the Law being not yet perswaded of the abolishment thereof Agayne when from him you would teach that they which did personally hate and persecute Christ yet were the true Church vntill the Temple and City were destroyed yea and saved though they repented it not Which is contrarie to these and many the like Scriptures Act. 2.40.47 and 13.45.46.50.51 and 19.8.9 1. Thes
the Levitical Priesthood Or if you will Popish derived from the Iewes Heb. 7.12 which comes all to one end 2. Your maintenance is such as by it all maner Ministeryes once received in the Land might be mainteyned were they never so Popish or otherwise never so impious in anie respect 3 You are bound so to mainteyne the Ministers you have whatsoever they be and that also whether you will or not 4. On the contrarie the maner of maintenance now ordeined by Christ for his Ministers is such 2 Cor. 9.14 as belongeth but to them which preach the Gospell and must come from the people of love and duty in that behalf 1. Thes 5.13 Gal. 6.6 Rom. 15.27 1. Timoth. 5.17 1 Cor. 9.7 c. 3. Lastly you say in a word but a shrewd word that the Prelates make not the Pastors at all in deed and in truth but onely supposedly And now in your printed book for more certainty you affirme it with consent of others whom you note in the margent But for this point it needeth not For we yeeld it most willingly Yet note withall that thus you do both give the cause and condemne at once all your Ministery as vnlawfull such as may neither be received nor joyned vnto See it for plainenes sake in a Syllogisme thus Witnes your Articles Canons Iniunctions Statutes c. Your Law and Church admitteth no other Ministery as lawfull among you but that which is receyved from the Prelates But this say you is none at all in deed and in truth Therefore all the Ministery admitted amoÌ„g you by your Law Church is none at all in deed and in truth A very sound defence of your Ministerie such as all the Prelates and Priests in the Land may well thank you for with cap in hand At least wise if you could draw them to be thus mynded And here let me put you in mynd how once you wished vs to set downe nothing in answer vnto you but that which is the doctrine of our whole Church If your self have kept this rule it is well If not how will you aunswer it That which you have added concerning Imposition of hands I admit with these cautions 1. That it is not to be neglected where it may well be had Hebr. 6.2 Act. 6.6 and 13.3 2. That in Churches alreadie established it be done by the Eldership and where people first come into the order of Christ by the fittest among them being therevnto appointed by the rest of the Church 1 Tim. 4.14 Numb 8.10 And thus much of the second Exception Chap. 4. The third Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe people can not chuse their Minister vnles the Prelate do either before or after make him a Minister But a couple may chuse and take each other in marriage whether the Priest will or no. Therefore the Comparison holdeth not H. Iacob his Reply 1 VVE deny your saying the people can not chuse They can chuse They have power in Christ as being ChristiaÌ„s though they know not their right therein The ignorance of this simply doth not cut vs of from Christ nor from this holy priviledge no more theÌ„ the blind Papists have lost their right power of marrying together without a Priest because they are ignoraÌ„t of it 2. Againe where you say But a couple may chuse each other whether the Priest will marry them or no Marke That we speake of blind Papists that thinke that the Priest is the whole absolute and necessarie marriage maker If you say even such have right and power to marry though they be farre from knowing it and farther from practizing Then graunt the like in chusing a Minister to our Christians for so the Comparison importeth Els if you meane those words of others that be men of knowledge Then you fight with your shadow you touch not our question Fran. Iohnson his Answer YOu do still take for graunted that which is denyed viz that your people have power in Christ to chuse their Ministers c. I proved before that seing your people stand in AntichristiaÌ„ servitude to the Prelates their Canons Courts confusion c. they have not in that estate neither can have whiles they so remaine the liberty and power of Christ either to chuse them Ministers or to performe anie other action belonging to the Church of Christ And further that they can not in that estate by the word of God be approved true Christians For which see the former Treatise In that you graunt the peoples choyse to be an holy priviledge you condemne both your Church which rejecteth it and such of your people as seem to vse it whereas in your estate they do nothing els but profane it Why also do not such of you as know these things deliver everie man his soule from that slaverie wherein ye stand vnder the Prelates that so you might enioy and practise the priviledges and holy things of God as Christ hath given them to his Church 2. To that you pretend of such as be blynd and ignorant thinking thereby to help your self I answer that we speak of your people as now they stand in your Church-constitution For so you know the question is Now whether they be ignorant or whether they have knowledge it skilleth not for the matter in hand This we alledge that none at all of your people or assemblyes have in your estate the liberty and power which Christ hath given to his Church as the other haue for mariage So we have towched the question directly But in deed the fault is Mr Iacob Iren. adversus Valem lib. 1. cap. 1. that your Comparison and Arguments hold together like ropes of sand as “ Irenaeus said of the Valentinians Let the Reader note withall 1. How you match together and put as in an eaven ballance the blynd Papists and your Christians A worthy defence of your estate 2. How here you pretend to speak of such as be ignorant other where of Christians having knowledge of Christ feare of God faith c. Thus turning your self into so manie shapes and colours as a man can not tell where to have you or what to make of you Quo teneam vultus mutantem Protea nodo Chap 5. The fourth ReasoÌ„ or ExceptioÌ„ against Mr Iacobs CoÌ„parison Fran. Iohnson IF anie that by the word of God are not capable of marrying togeather as Brother and Sister c. do notwithstanding consent to take each other for man and wife yet are they not therefore lawfull man and wife So if a people and some man that by the word of God can not chuse take each other as Pastor and Church in their estate such as now is in this â—aâ—d do notwithstanding consent so to accept each other yet are they not therefore lawfull Pastor and Church H. Iacob his Reply THis is wholy presumed and from the Question also Like to the first Reason and hath the same answer as is made
and Ministery it is no vnmeet thing that you vse the weapons of Antichrist Which are chiefly two falsehood and violence Of the former whereof your book is full from end to end speaking lyes through hypocrisy And with the latter your Church which you would defend aboundeth as your violent courses against the truth will alway testify to your face howsoever you shame not to plead evē for this also For which see before Pag. 112.133.134 If you write agayne be better advised Rev. 14. 18. chap. Psal 84. Ier. 50. and 51. Chap. Or rather learne to lay your hand on your mouth and plead the cyuse of Antichrist no more But follow the Lambe whithersoever he goeth And give your self no rest vntill you appeare before God in Sion Forsake Babel Let Ierusalem come vp on your heart and help you to build the walles thereof though it be in a strait and troublous tyme. And this which I speak vnto you by the word of God I wish to be mynded of all that feare God and love the Lord Iesus He that hath eares to heare let him heare Math. 13.9 A Table of some particular things conteyned in this Book ANtichristian corruptions yet had in the Church of England Pag. 63. c. Antichrists of two sorts pag. 95. Of the Apocrypha books pag. 22. 60. The Chaldean and Spirituall Babylon compared together pag. 99. c. Of the Beasts mark Preface Section 3. Pag. 163. 189 Blasphemy in the professiō Ministratiō of the Church of Eng. p. 22. 60. 188. 189. Of the auncyent and late Bishops pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of the Name Brownists pag. 2. A true visible Church described pag. 14. 196. The true Church hath but one Lord-bishop the Lord Iesus Christ p. 163. 189. It is Christs ordinance that there be true offices of Ministery and a lawfull administration and to a faithfull people pag. 16. 19. 39. The Worship and Ministery of the Church of England is against the Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome of Christ pag. 33. c. Of the Church of England Pag. 1. 3. 11. 27. 122 126. 161. c. Her confusion pag. 16. 103. 122. 200. Conviction pag. 42. 53. 78. 108. 130. c. Book of Common prayer pag. 27. 33. 63. 86. 96. 120. c. Dispensatiōs and Licences Pag. 65. 73. False doctrines pag. 122. 157. c. Fundamentall errors pag. 22. 114. 147. Excommunication and Absolution Pag. 33. 65. Hierarchy and Ministery Pag. 2. 23. 27. 63. 120. 122. 188. c. Holy dayes pag. 33. 64. Idol-temples P. 65. 121. 126. Indifferent opinion of the Hierarchy pag. 94. 120. 121. Persecution pag. 66 108. 112. 133. 177. 178. 197. Profession pag. 21. 60. 120. 171. Speaking lyes in hypocrisy pag. 150. 151. Will-worship and superstition pag. 27. 33. 82. 86. 87. The faith of the Church of England abolisheth the Second commandement and perfection of the Scriptures pag. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth all outward governement of the Church to be vnwritren and vncertayne pag. 28. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth the inventions of Antichrist to be Christs ordinances if the Magistrate so please pag. 61. 69. 72. The Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. in the Church of Engl. appoynted by mens precepts pag. 82. 86 87. None can ioyne with any Chutch or Ministery of Engl. but they must needs partake with their Antichristian abominations pag. 88. 170. The estate of the Ministers and Church of Engl. compared with Corahs c. pag. 32. 53. 130. 138. Difference to be put between true Churches having corruptions and false Churches making show of Religion pag. 92. 133. 161. 195. Things verifyed of the members of a true Church may be applyed to a false Church and yet not iustify their estate pag. 83. Of the Ethiopian Churches pag. 94. Of the error of Christs descension into Hell pag. 115. 116. Of the Foundation in Christian Religion pag. 46. 51. Some dying in fundamentall errors yet saved pag. 44. 45. 545 Some holding no fundamentall errors yet condemned pag. 48. 146. The falsest Churches and greatest Hereticks hold much truth pag. 47. 104. 106. 113. 136. 137. The Heathens acknowledging and worshipping of the true God p. 123. 124. The Papists bring more show of Scripture for their grossest heresyes then Mr Iacob or any other do for the Hierarchy c. pag. 129. A notable false doctrine of Mr Iacobs wherein it seemeth he is alone p. 172. Three speciall things to be noted in Mr Iacobs Replyes pag. 9. How Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded pag. 12. Popish shifts vsed by Mr Iacob pag. 26. 30. 32. 128. 136. c. Idolatry and false worship of two sorts pag. 67. 80. Visible Idols in the Church and worship of England pag. 120. Of the Iewes Church Preface Section 4. 5. pag. 83. 84. 89. 195. 197. Of Imposition of hands pag. 208. 210. Of the forbidding of Mariage and Meats pag. 73. 129. 135. 137. 140. 143. 147. Of the Martyrs pag. 8. 29. 40. 44. 54. 67. 79. 182. How the Ministers of England are made ordered pag. 188. 189. The word and Sacraments administred and received in the Church of Engl. in and from a false Ministery pag. 16 64. The Oath ex officio pag. 63. Of such as live and dy Papists c. pag. 146 Of the word Prelate pag. 188. Seven Questions yet vnanswered pag. 164. Separation from the Church of England graunted in expresse words by them selves pag. 156. 157. 169. The Sacraments administred in the Church of England with many corruptions pag. 15. 17. 25. 33. 64. Of Sacramentall speaches pag. 117. 118. Of the Samaritans pag. 104. c. The Parable of the Tares pag. 158. 173. Testimonyes of the Prelates themselves against the Church of Engl. p. 16. 200. Testimonyes of the Reformists against it p. 16. 27. 39. 79. 86. 103. 129. 176. 200. Testimoyes of the Reformed Churches against it pag. 17. 176. Testimonyes of the Martyrs and of former tymes against it pag. 162. 163. 177. 180. 182. 183. The Testimonyes alledged out of Scripture for defence of the Church of England are also against it Preface Section 3. 4. 5. 6. pag. 51. 52. 195. Of Tithes and maintenance of the Ministery pag. 209. 210. The Word of God onely is to be our rule and light of our feet pag. 22. 30. 34. 203. The word and ordinances of Christ as playne for vs now as was for the Iewes vnder the Law Yea more playne pag. 128. The obiections of Discōtinuance of Antiquity of Ambiguity in expounding the word c. answered pag. 128. 129. How the Lord abhorreth in his worship the mixture of mans inventions with his word and ordinances pag. 61. 101. 209. The doctrine and worship of Divels pag. 121. 122. The Lotd accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances are observed though it be for his worship pag. 80. 117. 122. Princes and Magistrates ought to abolish all false worship Ministeryes and to mainteyne the true which God hath prescribed in his word p. 199. Though they do not yet ought all the people of God to forsake the false and cleave vnto the true Preface Section 4. 6. 7. pag. 43. 46. 51. 101. 148. 158. 163. 170. 180. 184. 196. c. ERRATA PAg. 6. lin 9. read thus the Assumption And note downe in the Margent Pag. 86. and 87. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is after a sort or in part Pag. 183. Mr Tindals testimony there alledged is in his works printed together pag. 176. in the Book called The obedience of a Christian man Pag. 197. lin 41. sinne as Pag. 200. lin 38. starting hole Pag. 204. lin 9. that they FINIS
the like I have mentioned before and you I suppose will aunswer them at leasure Now where you quote some Scriptures in the margent See also for this in the Preface Section 3. it is to generall for your purpose You must prove your assertion by them Which yet you do not When you goe about it say if there be not of the foundation not only the particulars in * 1 Cor. 15 2.3.4 Rom. 4.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11 12 13 14. these Scriptures expressed but many other also here comprised though not named in particular As for exāple 1. that there is a God and but one 2. that there are three persons the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost 3. that the Sonne not the Father or holy Ghost tooke vnto him our flesh 4. that the true God alone must be worshipped and that onely according to his word and no otherwise 5. that Christ as head and King of his Church hath given offices and ordinances for the work of the Ministerie which are to continew to the end of the world 6. that he is to be obeyed therein vpon paine of damnation and no other to be received 7. that we must not only professe in word but practise indeed the commaūdements of Christ whatsoever persecution follow thereon c. Tell vs I say whether these and the like which other places of the word lead vs vnto be not both of the foundation and comprised in the Scriptures quoted by your self How idly then and absurdly do you cite them here To give an instance doth not the Apostle from the death of Christ mentioned in these Scriptures deduce in other places the necessity of our dying from the ordinances of the world from the traditions of men from voluntarie religion finally from all dead works whatsoever which he reckneth vp as a fundamentall point in that place to the Hebrewes before alledged Yea doth †Col. 2.8.18.19.20 c. he not from hence prove that we cannot hold Christ the head and increase with the increasing of God if we will togeather with him retaine the traditions and precepts of men for the seruice of God And are then no outward Church-orders of the foundation at all We will look for your proof and aunswer hereof in your next In the second place I propounded two questions vpon comparing togeather Moses and Christ You aunswer not one worde to the latter And in the former you kepe not my words which is a thing to commō with you knowing belike that the weaknes of your aunswer would then the more readily have ben seen My question was vvhether the outvvard gouernement and ceremonies ordeined by Christ for his Church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation as much as the outvvard governement and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the Lavv Your aunswer is Neither vvere the Ievves outvvard orders of the very foundation vvithout vvhich they could not be saved But speak out man were they of the foundation at all or not And when you have told vs this then know for your learning besides that alreadie spoken touching the foundation that the outvvard orders that is the outward ordinances ceremonies and gouernement which God prescribed to the Iewes were vnto them so of the foundation and necessarie to be observed as ‡ Deut. 27.26 curse and death was threatned to all that brake them Yea severe punishment even vnto death was executed vpon the transgressors of such things as seemed but small Levit. 10.1.2 1 Sam. 6.19 and 2 Sam. 6.6.7 2 Chron. 26.16.19 Now these things are written for our instruction to admonish vs vpon whome the ends of the world are come If yet notwithstanding you and your Church will presume otherwise be it at your perill Our soules shall not enter into your secret The third question here was about Corah and his complices Wherein in you deale as with the former not keping mine owne words It may be you thought by this meanes to hide the vanity of your aūswer Howsoever al the aunswer you give to the severall branches of it is only this that they were separated from and damned not that the matter vvas fundamental but that the manner vvas rebellious vvith consciences a thousād times convicted and so done vvith an high hand against God himself But how prove you this which you say And why aunswer you not to the severall points of the question in order as they were propounded It may be you will do this in your next Then in the meane time know that even the matter wherein they sinned was fundamentall if we consider it thus Their sinne was that not being Priests they would offer incense to God Now the Priehstood and offering vp of incense led them as it were by the hand to the Priesthood and Intercession of Christ Either therefore you must denie Christs Priesthood and Intercession to be of the foundation or els you must graunt they sinned in a matter in this respect fundamentall that is being thus considered Yet it was you see touching the Priesthood and Minjsterie which concerne the outward orders and governement of the Church Thus al your defence falleth to the ground Touching the manner also Corah and his complices had pretence for them selves aswell as your Prelates and Priests now have Read and mind well what great reasons they pretend Numb 16. Num. 16.2.3 And see if you can shew any greater yea or any the like for your selves Then speak whether that considered it be not as hard for you to affirme them so convicted in conscience as for vs to affirme it of you in England And now that I mind it let me aske of you Mr. Iacob in this case as you †Pag. 36. erewhile did of me in your owne Did their whole assemblies sinne thus all and every of their assemblies of wilfulnes and of a convicted consciēce Are you sure of this Do you know every mans hart and conscience so vvel If you do then you say somevvhat indeed But you are then neere as vvise as God himselfe to knovv mens hearts so perfectly vvhose faces you never savv c. How like you now your owne manner of reasoning Is it not verie proper think you and to great purpose But perhaps you will say the Scripture speakes asmuch as you do concerning them If it do why shew you not the places Why prove you it not from thence Nay then what say you Mr. Iacob to the litle children which perished in that cōdemnation as the * Num. 16.27.32 Scripture there witnesseth Will you say that they in that action were so rebellious as you speake of with consciences a thousand times convicted Or will you now confesse your Reply to be of no waight at all save against your self To which end I wish both your self and the Reader to note for a conclusion that here you graunt even for outvvard orders of the Church when men see the truth in their consciences and yet stand
have vs beleev that Magik lyes blasphemy contradiction to the Scriptures agree with the Gospell well ynough or that they destroy not true Christianitie I meane so as I expressed in my former aunswer that is so as the people and Churches thus professing and practising cannot by the word of God be iudged in that estate true Christians or true constituted Churches of Christ And more yet when withall there be found manie abominations directly Antichristian yea and blasphemous as I have noted of your Hierarchy worship c. Will you make Christ and Antichrist accord togeather It * 2 Cor. 6.14 cannot be If you will not receive it then prove by Gods word either that these things are not directly Antichristian nor blasphemous or that being so yet they do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie so as before is declared For Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. is aunswered alreadie Pag. 8. 40. The grosse absurdity of your comparison of a man with a woodden leg the like referred to your estate I have showed in the end of my former aunswer Against which if you can say any thing let vs have it in your next Reply And remember withall that the body of your Church besides the shamefull confusion it standeth in hath a number of moÌ„strous and deformed heads on whose foreheads are written †Rev. 17.8 with 14.11 names of blasphemy viz your Archbishops Lordbishops Priests c. Which by the confession of the best among you were never borne in Sion but in Babylon by descent the sonnes of Anak and Nimrod mightie hunters â—f Gods people as their estate and practise in all ages even vnto this day doth testifie These and other abominations heretofore mentioned you would still conceale and in steed thereof take for graunted that your Church in her constitution is as a body which hath the life being of a man not of a beast Now this you know we deny and you should prove But that you let alone as being all to hard And I perceive alreadie that rather then you will do it you will leave your woodden legg to shift for it self as you have left your Aethiopians teeth and Swannes bill Let the Reader judge whether of vs it is that goeth about to refute onely with words with bare Yea Nay and no more And hitherto of the three Excepttons gathered out of your owne doctrine against the Aâ—sumption of your maine Argument Now follow some other Reasons brought against the same with your Replies and my Aunswers therevnto Chap. 7. The first Reason against Mr. Iacobs former Assumption Fr. Iohnson THat which ioyneth Christ and Antichrist togeather can not make a true Christian 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 with Ezech. 43.8 and 2 Kings 17.33.34.40.41 But that doth the whole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by law in EnglaÌ„d As may be seen 1. By the Book alledged coÌ„paring the 35. and 36. Articles with the rest 2. By your profession to be seen likewise in your other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Advertisements c. 3. By your practise as witnesseth your Ministery Leitourgy and Church-gouernement even to this day Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the first Reason THis your first Reason is thus That which ioyneth Christ and Antichrist togeather cannot make a true Christian But that doth our Booke c. Ergo. I say you must mende your vnproper speach that Christ and Antichrist is there ioyned togeather you meane Christ and some outvvard ceremonies and orders of Antichrist then so speake and say not Christ and Antichrist simply Which things yet we thinke to be Christs owne as wee ‡ Pag. 28.35 shewed in the Second Exception before Therefore this reason is aunsvvered as the last Exception before The Svvanne is blacke of his bill Ergo the Svvan is blacke and my brother hath a vvodden legge Therefore my brother is a vvodden man So here this booke ioyneth Christ and some orders of Antichrist Therefore it ioyneth Christ and Antichrist togeather vvhich are most fonde conclusions Furthermore the Scriptures alleadged 2 Cor. 6. Ezek. 43. 2 Kings 17. are vvholy mismatched the ioyning there forbidden is vnto such idolatrie as can not stande by any meanes vvith Christian faith and breaketh most directly the First commaundement Our transgression your selves doe iudge to be but against the Second and such as hath stood and may stand togeather vvith true faith as in M. Cranmer c. * Namely the Idolaters in these places spoken of They did not so much as professe the vvritten Lavv to be their rule neither for outvvard orders nor their invvard doctrines of faith But your selves knovv vve professe and practise that namely so as is shevved before in the ‡ Pag. 28.35 Seconde Exception Therefore to apply those Scriptures in this vnto vs is your great sinne euen against the third Commaundement vwhich is your common custome as all doe see and pittie viz. To take the name of God in vaine by mifusing his worde Fr. Iohson his aunsvver to Mr. Iacobs 1. Replie to the 1. Reason YOur answer is first concerning the Proposition then concerning the Assumption For the PropositioÌ„ you say the speach is vnproper that Christ Antichrist is among you ioyned togeather Then you take vpon you to expound our meaning to be thus Christ and some outvvard ceremonies and orders of Antichrist To this we answer First that the speach is fit and proper Secondly that it is meete that we not you expound our owne meaning Which togeather with the proprietie of the speach will now appear in that which followeth Concerning the AssumptioÌ„ first you say the things amoÌ„g you which we charge to be of Antichrist you think to be Christs ovvne for proof whereof you refer vs to your Reply to the Second exception before whither also we refer your self and the Reader for answer againe Then forgetting your self you grauÌ„t that in deed they be orders of Anticrist yet that they are but as the blacknes of the Swannes bill to the rest of the body So by you owne confession they are of Antichrist and therefore not Christes owne as †Pag. 28. before you said and laboured to prooue Thus at once you both contradict your self and ouerthrow that which you answered before to the Second exception This were sufficient to manifest your deceitfull and euill dealing But that it may more fullie appeare specially seing you would dazell the peoples eyes with these mincing wordes of some outvvard ceremonies orders of Antichrist comparing them with the blacknes of the Swans bill as if they were but a few and of small moment therefore will wee reckon vp some of them for it were infinite to nuÌ„ber them all By which the Reader may better see and iudge both of the sleightnes of your aunswer and of the black constitution of your Church Sory we are that we should thus trouble the Reader or our selues specially considering that alreadie we haue mentioned diuers
am I from being of your mynd who think the truth wholy destroied in all such as have served Idols or held any other fundamentall errors Consider also the Aethiopian Churches which retaine many of Moses ceremonyes and of the grosse points of Popery And the Greek Churches erring greatlie of old about Freewill and synce that tyme about the Person and proceeding of the holy Ghost besides other very great errors among them Not to speak of the Lutherans holding with other errors that of Consubstantiation which by necessarie consequence overthroweth Christs humane nature and therefore is fundamentall in your owne account Will you now say that none of these can have a lively saving faith I dare not be of your mynd I hope and am perswaded otherwise Nay even for the Papists and others of whom you speak I dare not with you say peremptorilie of them all from the first arising of their errors they are vtterly abolished from Christ My reason I shewed before out of the Papists owne doctrine To which I refer you with this note Pag. 47. that as on the one hand I acknowledge * Exo. 33.19 Rom. 9.15 God sheweth mercy to whom he will so on the other hand I am perswaded neither can I see otherwise by the word of God but whosoever liveth and dyeth a Papist and member of that Church of Antichrist in the knowledge profession and maintenance of that Religion in the parts thereof can not of vs be esteemed to live and dy in the state of salvation And this I speak as of all such generallie so speciallie of them which have lived synce the height and clearer manifestation of that apostasy 2 Thes 2 3-12 Rev. 13.8.11 17. 18. 19. chap. Such also take I to be the case of the Anabaptists Arrians and the like departing from true Churches and being once coÌ„victed Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.25.38 1 Ioh. 2.19 Iud. ver 19. This being noted I could now further alledge against your peremptory coÌ„demnation of all such as have held any fundamentall errors that even your selves yea the chiefest pillars of your Church are of a contrary judgement herein And for proof I could cite D. Whitgift now your great Archb. in his ‡ last book against Mr Cartvvright pag. 83. But because where sound judgement is needfull in question of Religion his testimony is but of small valew I will not stand vpon it but refer you rather to Mr Iewell a Prelate also yet a man otherwise worthy to be reverented both for his suffrings in Q. Maryes dayes and for his gifts and labours employed in defence of sundry points of the truth against the Papists This Mr Iewell alledging the examples of Papias Apollinarius Victorinus Tertullianus Iewels defeÌ„ce of the Apology Pag. 337. 338. Lactantius and others in former tymes confesseth that both they defended the heresy of the Chiliastae which said that Christ after the generall iudgement should dwell here a thousand yeares together vpoÌ„ the earth and yet notwithstanding were godly and worthy members of the Church of God So also he thought of Irenaeus though he held besides the former heresy this also Ibid. that Man at the beginning when he was first created was vnperfect And of Hilary who affirmed both that ‡ Ibid. pag. 353. Christ received not flesh of the blessed Virgin and that the flesh of Christ was impassible and could feel no grief Also of the Picardes concerning whom when Harding the Papist objected †Iewels Rep. to Harding Pag. 119. that sometyme they pulled out their eye and cast it froÌ„ them he aunswereth it was an error of simplicity if they did it much like the error of Origen and others who ghelded themselves for the Kindome of heaven Which two last things of the Picards and Origen it may be you include in your second sort of fundamentall errors and the other before in your first and so account them all without saving faith and vtterly abolished from Christ Yet you see the chief governors of your Church are otherwise minded Yea and your Church it self for Mr Iewels books were published with consent and speciall priuiledge thereof Note this well 2 Some againe who erre not in any fâ—ndamentall point as you distinguish yet no doubt shall perish and be condemned As for not relieving the poore and people of God for not yeelding obedience to Christ but fearing of man more then God for want of sanctification for hypocrisy contention wicked life c. Mat. 25 41-46 Ioh. 3.36 Mat. 23. chap. Rom. 2.8 1 Thes 4 3-6 Ephes 5 3-6 Gal. 5.19.20.21 Neither can you be ignorant but that “ Deut. 27.26 Rom. 6.23 Ezec. 18.10.11 Iam. 2.10 curse and death by the Law of God is threatned to all sinne even to the least Yea and that the very infants through originall sinne alone are subiect herevnto Rom. 5.14 1 Cor. 7.14 For your defence then it is not sufficient though it were graunted that you hold the Foundation and erre not in any fundamentall point Your persisting in false worship and disobeying the ordinance of Christ howsoever you consider it sufficeth to make your estate vnlawfull and subiect to condemnation God imputing it vnto you Thus at once all your building and defence of your Church falleth to the ground But yet that you deceive not your self nor your Reader in this point anie more mynd if your Church do not also hold and mainteine sundry Fundamentall errors against the true faith of Christ For example Fundamentall errors in the Churche of England 1. Your self say before * pag. 28. 35. that your Church holdeth all outward gouernement and ceremonyes to be vnwritten and vncertayne but at the arbitrary appointment of the Church and Magistrate c. That this is a fundamentall error appeareth thus 1. It doth wholie take away and annihilate the Second commaundement 2. It maketh Christ the Sonne inferior to Moses the servant 3. It vpholdeth these and the like fundamentall errors viz That it is not written nor certaine but at the Churches and Magistrates pleasure Whether the Pope be to be head of the Church or Christ onelie Whether now we may retayne the Priesthood of Levi the Passeover Circuncision c. For these concerne the outward gouernement and ceremonies of the Church 2. Your Church holdeth that Christ in his soule descended into Hell Which I haue shewed †before to be your Churches opinion Pag. 116. And who knoweth not that Whitgift P. of Canterbury Bilson P. of Winchester Chaderton P. of Lincolne with other the pillers of your Church do thus hold and mainteine And that it is Fundamentall your self I suppose will not denie See but your owne book against D. Bilson about this question Pag. 92. 127. 133. 148. 156. 162. 165. 174. 3. Your Churches Ministery worship confusion and governement are such as they profane and disanull Christs office of Mediation that is of his Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome That this is Fundamentall against
2.14.15.16 Rev. 2.9 Another vntruth is that you say the sinne of your Bishops now is no greater then of the auncyent declining Bishops and them in K. Edwards tyme Whereas many wayes it is incomparably greater as I have shewed before Pag. 40. 41. 129. 133. 148. 162. 175. 177. 183. 203. Another is in that you say your sinne is no way fundamental The contrarie whereof see proved before Pag. 22. 73. 114. 147. And another when you charge me as if I held all among you to be godles and profane when I have alway thought and professed otherwise Yea even here I said your Church coÌ„sisteth of all sorts that is both good and bad better and worse some making coÌ„scieÌ„ce of their wayes according to the knowledg they have some not c. For which also see further before Pag. 7. 20. 21. 41. 78. 103. 168. 178. Finallie it is â—either vntrue also when you say this poynt towching the Hierarchy is not acknowledged in your Church even of ignorance in a thousaÌ„d to one Or if it be true it is a shame for you and all the Ministers of your Church who have not in this cleare light of the Gospell by the space of fourty yeares together made knowen vnto the people so great a point of Antichristianity as the Hierarchy is Which is the verie sinewes and strength of the Popes Religion As I feare wofull experience will teach you further if yet you do not see and feel it ynough But of this also I have spoken before in the Preface Section 6. Lo here the ornaments of your Reply and Defence of your estate The very naming whereof is sufficient to shew your folly and your Churches miscrie Yet least you should please your self in this course as also for the satisfying of such as desier further handling of these things I have spoken of them before more particularly As namely of sinnes fundamentall Pag. 22. 32. 44. 46. 51. 73. 114. 147. Of the Scriptures which here you alledge in the margent Pag. 51. and in the Preface Section 3. Of the Iewes Church Pag. 84. 161. 195. 197. in the Preface Section 5. Of the auncient Bishops Pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of them in K. Edwards dayes Mr Cranmer c. Pag. 8. 40. 41. 48. 49. 67. 77. 162. 182. Of your Churches estate and conviction Pag. 3. 7. 16. 27. 33. 42. 43. 53. 60. 61. 63 73. 78. 82. 94. 101. 103. 108. 120. 130. 131. 132. 135. 147. 155. 157. 171. 180. 188 194. 196. 200. c. Your caution against rash hasty iudging of any is very good and needfull We do together with you exhort all to beware of such dealing and to take heed they †iudge righteous iudgement as Christ hath commauÌ„ded And therefore that they be careful to search out and help forward the iudgment Ioh. 7.24 given by the Apostles and Prophets on the Whore of Babylon and all her Daughters Rev. 18.20.21 and 17.1.5.6.7 with Ier. 51 61-64 Neither let any think that this is to curse where God blesseth or to lay an hindrance and stumbling block before any but that it is in deed to reward Babylon as she hath rewarded vs and to beare witnes to the truth and syncerity of the Gospell Rev. 18.6 14.6.7.8 2 Thes 2.8 that it may the more be brought to light and received of the elect to eternall life To such we know Christ with all his ordinances is precious but in deed to them which be disobedient he is a stone to stumble at and a rock of offence even to them which stumble at the word being disobedient to the which thing they were also ordeined 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Take heed therefore you blesse not your selves in your disobedience of anie truth of Christ promising your selves peace though you walk according to the stubbernes of your owne hearts so adding drunkenes vnto thirst For such blessing God hath threatned to curse Deut. 29.19.20 Zach. 11.5.6 Malach. 2.2 For our selves we judge not any man It is the word of God that iudgeth which shall also judge in the last day Ioh. 12.48 By it therefore let every man trie and examine his wayes of what place or calling soever he be first for the worship he performeth vnto God and then for all the other actions of his life that he may so please God in this life as he may in the next be partaker of the glorie that shal be revealed Neither let anie be daunted with the reproches and afflictioÌ„s which accompanie the truth and witnesses thereof Even Christ himself the Prince of our salvation was consecrate through afflictions and he hath promised if we suffer with him we shall also raigne with him Heb. 2.10 Rev. 2.10 Rom. 8.17.18 2 Tim. 2.12 Therefore also we say with the Prophet as you do here and wish it might sound in the eares of all men as a trumpet Blessed is he that iudgeth wisely of the poore even of him that is despised c. Psal 41.1 To conclude your one word whereof you told vs a litle before is now become two words and all litle ynough For if your reason be good all me your self if a man might not after your example in two words conclude the Papists also to be true Christians thus That faith and religion taught in the Creeds commonly attributed to the Apostles the Nicene Councell Athanasius c. maketh the people that beleev and obey the same true Christians such as so living and dying may be saved But the Popish Church doth so hold that faith Therefore they are true Christians c. If your reason be good what will you say to this If you say they professe in word but do in deed both in their Church-constitutioÌ„ and practise denie it such also is your case Besides that the question is not whether anie among you may be saved by the truth you hold For we doubt not but eveÌ„ in the Popish Church God saveth his by the truth there held But the question is whether you or they can in your estate and Church-constitution be deemed by the word of God true Christians or true Churches such as none may separate from your worship and Ministery established among you And here I can tell you that even some of your selves have acknowledged and openly avowched your Churches case to be such Demonstration in the Preface as “ a man may be any thing among you but a sound Christian Yet I suppose you will not say they were desperate for saying so And if I be not deceived your self also have ben like mynded with them heretofore Sure I am you had need cleare these things very well and in anie case take heed you become not desperate therein Neither two nor three of your words will help the matter It is the word of God that must decide it between vs. Whatsoever you have replyed in the former Treatise I have there answered And now I leave it to all indifferent and Christian mynds to acknowledge your
publik Church asseblyes for such Christians as in that estate they are found to be by the word of God If by it either you or anie other can prove them to be true ones I have done If not then I wish you and all others to yeeld to the truth and no longer to strive against it Hitherto of the first Exception against your Comparison Chap. 3. The Second Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priest doth not celebrate or pronounce any marriage without the married first giue their consent But the Prelate make ministers without and before the peoples cōsent Therefore the Comparison holdeth not H. Iacob his Reply FIrst it is very vaine to make this any matter viz the peoples consenting either before or after the Prelats ordeyning For whether before or after it is in nature and value all one They in their ignorance having respect only to the Prelats act And if it were so that the Priest should sometymes marie a couple the Maide being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striving nor resisting and a while after shall willingly agree like Out of question there is now true wedlock betweene them Even so the case is betwixt the Church and the Minister 2. But what will you except here against those Pastors amongst vs that were first chosen by the people they first professing their consent and are after instituted and inducted by the Prelat Many are thus called amongst vs and the most have the peoples consent even together at their first inducting at least wise they have soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them even presently 3. Lastly in a word where you say the Prelats make Ministers without before the peoples consent Beza in Act. 14.23 Fenner against Bridges Pag. 148. We affirme that they make not the Pastor at all indeed and in truth but onely supposedly It is the Churches consent that maketh him truly whether before or after the Bishop that skilleth not If any thinke Imposition of hands to be simplie necessarie to the being of a Minister that is also an error and can not be proved Fr. Io. his Aunswer BEcause I see you need it Mr Iacob I will deale very liberallie with you I graunt that your peoples consenting whether before or after the Prelates ordeining is in nature and valew all one c. that is of no valew or force at all Whether you respect the Law of God which knoweth no such jugling of people and Prelates or the Law of your owne Church which appoynteth no such election by the people at all And thus too it is a very vayne thing for you to make this any matter viz our peoples consenting eyther before or after the Prelates ordeyning Yet remember that your Cōparison which I answered spake of people that had made choyse of a Minister before he came for ordination to the Prelate Therefore it was and is ynough against the Comparison to shew that the Priests can not celebrate mariage before the partyes consent ech to other Whereas the Prelates make Ministers both before and without the peoples consent yea and without their knowledge commonly It is vayne then in you to count such exception vayne I mynd also how deceitfully you passe by that clause without the peoples consent Therefore to discover your fraud and to see what better answer you can give in your next I will propound the Reason also thus The Priest doth not celebrate any mariage without the maryed first give their consent But the Prelates make Ministers without the peoples consent Therefore the Comparison holdeth not Your case of a Mayde being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striving nor resisting is meerly absurd and ridiculous Can it possibly be that one should both be meerlie enforced denying consent and yet not strive nor resist As soone may you make Fier and Water agree together as these two For to be enforced yea meerlie enforced must needs imply a striving or resisting against it Els what needed there or how should there be said to be anie forcing But you say if afterward she agree there is true wedlock True in deed if they both agree But then it is not by reason of anie thing done before which was sinfull altogether but by vertue of the present mutuall willing consent they having liberty and power to marrie together according to Gods ordinance But with your people and Assemblyes it is far otherwise seing you have not liberty or power in your estate to call a Minister according to the ordinance of Christ Which I have proved both in the first Reason before and in the rest hereafter following 2. To your demaund about Ministers first chosen by the people afore they are instituted by the Prelates I aunswer that if your people had power in your estate to chuse a Minister which they have not yet the receiving of institution and induction by the Prelates afterward being never ordeined by God were at least to set your thresholds by Gods thresholds that is your inventions by Gods ordinances Which were in very deed to commit abomination against the Lord and to defile his holy Name and you in so doing become so far from having him present with you as even by this meanes you set a wall between him and your selves Ezech. 43.8 And not so onely but do also rebell against the Lord and turne away from him in receiving an other Ministery for the administration of his holy things thē he by his word hath ordeined in his Church Ios 22.29 Let the Reader note here besides how you speak onelie of the institution and induction by the Prelates and closely passe over the Prelates first ordeining of them Priests and Deacōs Without which they are in your Church no Ministers at all neyther capable of anie benefice though the people should never so much make choyse of any Where you say most of your Ministers have the peoples consent at their first inducting or at least soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them even presently First I aunswer as before that your peoples consent in your estate is of no moment Secondly if this reason of yours be good then your dumbe Priests Non-residents and most Popish Ministers in the worst tymes and places are to be accounted true Pastors aswell as the best among you because vpon their inductiō the people submit to their Ministery and mainteyne them even presently For who knowes not that when once a Priest is presented by the Patrone and inducted by the Prelate to a benefice your people do and must joyne to his Ministery and for his maintenance give him their tithes c. will they nill they Adde herevnto that even the maintenance belonging to your Ministery is such as was never ordeyned by Christ and therefore neither to be received by the Ministers nor given by the people Which I prove thus 1. Your Ministrrs are mainteyned by Tithes which is Iewish and ceased with “