we have an opportunity to do better it is unlawful to joyn with them that do worse For though it be not lawful to neglect your own duty and opportunity it is lawful for you by deed as well as word to shew your Christian Concord and Communion Therefore in Parishes where all may well hear the Parish Minister I would not have you without necessity Preach at the same hour as he doth but at some middle time that you may not seem to vie with him for Auditors nor to draw the People from him But let them go with you to hear him and after come and hear you or before And that he likes not this gathering of Churches very well whatever he had said in the defense by the Petition he would have us make for them That if possible upon the terms he had laid down they might be taken into the established Ministry if not yet tolerated as Lecturers under us in such Churches where the Ministers desire them And he hath my consent that either of these were rather to be admitted though it be with the loss of part of our profits then to hazard all as I fear you do by the present separation One thing I humbly renew for your most serious consideration whether it be not adviseable to instruct your Hearers in the lawfulness and convenience of their communicating with us at least sometimes and perswading them there unto both by your teachiâ—g and example lest by the constant opposite practice their hearts be so alienated from the Temple worship that when you would reduce them to it you shall find it beyond your power To the Non-Conforming People FOr you that are our People who are neither gone away already or are under temptation to leave us I have very little encouragement to trouble you with my advice though I shall not say of you as the Author lately quoted doth of the P. 118. Conformists in his humble Petition to them that Satan hath got so great advantage that the wisest man living is uncapable of speaking rightly to them without offence However suffer though it be a kind of penance to you yet suffer a word or two of Exhortatation which I shall commend with better Authority to you then mine own 1. Suffer the Arguments both Conform as far as you can from duty and Peace and unity and charity to prevail with you to conform as far as you can And in what you cannot labour for satisfaction and if that cannot be had use any allowed means for the gratifying your selves in such things wherein you cannot conform but do not separate more then you must needs Is not this reasonable and proper advice ask Mr. Baxier ask the Author of the Answer to my Book ask the old Non-Conformists yea I appeal to your own Breasts if you would but suffer your selves seriously and impartially to consider it For surely Division is not to be chosen for it self and there can be no reason for the use of the dangerous Physick of Separation and rending and tearing the body of the Church beyond necessity There are three Questions or Cases of Conscience that would be throughly canvas'd and resolv'd before yoâ— Separate 1. Whether we may ordinarily leave our own Parish Ministers to hear others 2. Whether such as could and did communicate with the Parish Churches before the liberty can have any tolerable reason to separate now 3. Whether such as say they cannot in Conscience joine with us in all things have any ground to leave us in those Parts of worship they can The first is answered by the Old Non-Conformists particularly by the grave Mr. Hildersham in these words If thy Pastor saith he be approved of by the Church Conscionable in his place unblameable in his life though of inferiour Parts take heed thou leave him not 1. He may be a true Minister though inferiour to many others Mat. 25. 15. Which Argument the Apostle useth to perswade all members to unity Eph. 4. 7. You are bound to love and reverence him and thank God for him 1 Cor. 6. 10. 1 Thes 5. 13. Rom. 10. 15. Luke 10. 16. 3. Doubtless thou maist profit by him if the fault be not in thy self 1 Cor. 12. 7. 14. 31. 4. Our profit depends not on Ministers gifts but on Gods blessing 1 Cor. 3. 5 6 7 8. 5. None may usually and ordinarily leave his own Pastour so qualified as before for 1. As it is Gods own Ordinance that every own Pastour should have his own Flock to attend and take heed unto Act. 14. 23. So it is Gods Ordinance that every one of Gods People should have a Pastor of his own to attend upon 1 Pet. 5. 3. Now he cannot be said to depend upon his Pastour's Ministry that doth ordinarily and usually leave it and go to another He onely maketh a right use of the benefit of hearing such as have more excellent gifts then his own Pastour as leaneth thereby to his own Pastour the better and to profit more by him 6. If thou leavest thine own Pastour onely with a desire to edifie thy self 1. Do it with his consent and leave 2. Acknowledge thou owest a duty to him as to thy Superiour in the things that belong to thy Soul 1. Thes 5. 11. 3. Thou art bound to seek his comfort and to give him all good encouragement that he may do his work with joy and cheerfulness Heb. 13. 17. Hildersham upon the 4 th of John 2. The Second Case is touching such of you as could and did â—ommunicate with us in our Parish worship before the liberty granted â—y the late Declaration And is whether they can have any toleraâ—le Reason except their Judgements be since changed to sepaâ—ate now That they cannot I â—ope I have made to appear sufâ—ciently in other parts but if â—y Reasons may not be thought worthy your Consideration yet mâ— thinks 't is not in considerable that there are but two Persons that have set themselves to answer me and they have both of them yielded in this point Though they seem to be a little too exceptious in lesser matters The Author of the Book called Sacrilegious desertion of the holy Ministry rebuked c. delivereth himself in the Case fully to our purpose in these words As far as I can promise P. 76. saith he we will judge of you no worse then we have done noâ— deny any Communion with you which we have used and can use without neglecting ouâ— own work As I constantlâ— Joyn in my Parish Church in Liturgy and Sacâ—aments so I hopâ— to do while I live if I live under as honest a Minister at duâ— times The Author of the short Reflections upon Toleration not to be P. 37. abused is my other publick Adversary let us hear him also Who are they saith he who separate from them where they can have Communion with them I do not know I wish we could say so too Presbyterians I believe will not
sense you account our Ministers and Churches true 2. If you may occasionally exercise Acts of Communion with us once a second a third time without sin we know no reason why it may not be ordinarily without sin And then Separation and gathering Churches would have been needless To separate from those Churches ordinarily and visibly with whom occasionally you may Joyn without sin seemeth to be a most unjust Separation Indep Suppose you do account our gathering Churches sinful may not some things be tolerated which are thought unlawful Presb. Our Reason against Toleration is not sounded upon the Supposition that nothing unlawful may be tolerated but upon the supposition of unlawfulness to tolerate the gathering Churches out of true Churches And you do not once endeavour to prove either that such gathering or the tolerating thereof is lawful We are to debate the lawfulness of forbearance and may insist upon any proper medium to that end for clearing whereof the lawfulness or unlawfulness of that point of Church gathering is one of the most necessary Indep If we do not gather into other Churches Multitudes that cannot conform must live without some Ordinances all their dayes Presb. Of this before but we answer that you wave the main business viz. whether there be any Example in Gods Word for gathering Churches out of Churches 1. This opens a gap for all Sects to challenge the same liberty as their due It should be considered 2. Whether we must follow an Erroneous Conscience so far as to gather into new Churches 3. Whether this be not denied by the Churches in New-England Indep Is it not the Right of every man to choose his own Minister Presb. Certainly some would deny it and it will be like to breed much confusion Besides the tolerated will have the greatest priviledge by it they shall enjoy it absolutely when those under the Rule cannot without removing their dwellings p. 64 65. Indep Though we do separate we are such as have given good Testimony of our Godliness and Peaceableness And we did not separate till we had used all means in faithfulness to know the mind of Christ Presb. We shall not mind you how Testimonies of Godliness are not always infallible Protections against Schism or Heresie as in Milesius Lucifer Audaeus c. We conceive that amongst other means used in faithfulness this should be one that each person give an account of his Scruple to the Eldership or Congregation where he dwells that so he may either receive satisfaction or have from them a Testimony of Godliness and Peaceableness Indep But you uncharitably charge us with the guilt of Schism though we do not say your Churches are false and not to be communicated with which is hard measure Presb. We have answered this already but further we say albeit Schism consists not in every diversity of opinion or practice but in an open breach of Christian love yet we see not how you can acquit your selves even by this Rule when you openly profess a necessity to recede from our Churches as Members which while yet you acknowledge them to be true Churches of Christ Thus to depart from true Churches is not to hold Communion with them as such but rather by departing to declare them to be such Surely at best we may say of this course as the Philosopher did of the Milesians Milesii quidem non sunt insipientes ea tamen agunt quae insipientes Mark once for all how unaptly the Reflecter would make all the stress of the Presbyterians Argument to prove the Schism of the Independents to beat upon the endeavours of their Churches to reform For the Independents were as unsatisfied with their Reformation as they are with their worship For they say plainly the Reformation which the Assembly hath ultimately pitch'd upon satisfies not our Consciences as our Brethren know No you every where find they charge them with Separation from true Churches and aggravate that charge from their acknowledgment of the truth of those Churches from which they separate Indep But you endeavour our disgrace and cast an odium upon us by the word Schism Presb. Your way would give countenance to a perpetual Division in the Church still drawing away from the Churches under the Rule And Schism differs no more from Division then Greek from Latine We desire you that by assuming tenderness of Conscience to your dissenting from the Rule and establishment of a Church-way or Church-order to your way and godly party you would not reflect an odium upon us or the Churches under the Rule You know that to give countenance to an unjust or causless Separation from a lawful Church-Communion is not far from giving countenance to Schism Especially wheen the grounds upon which this Separation is desired are such as upon which all other possible scruples may claim a like Indulgence and so this Toleration being the first shall indeed but lay a Foundation and open the Gap whereat as many Divisions in the Church as there be Scruples in the minds of men shall upon the self same equity be let in p. 66. The Conclusion with a Recapitulation OUR work we see was effectually done to our hands many years agon both against the Independents and the present Presbyterians whose practice in gathering Churches and whose Arguments in defence of that practice are very much the same And both are here abundantly confuted by these Presbyterian weighty Reasons Which indeed are such as took not their strength from any peculiar conditions of the times when they were written but are now and ever will be of equal and invincible prevalency Therefore the Dialogue is as proper and seasonable now as those Papers were then Do but change the Person and name Presbyterian for the Church of England and the whole is as pertinent to our present State as the Reader can wish And indeed what can the wit of the present dissenters add new to the Argument as it was then managed Or what have they said more for themselves Reveiw and judge The Independents then pleaded 1. WE onely desire a liberty to worship God in Congregations of our own distincâ— from the Parochial 2. We condemn not the Parochial Churches as false 3. We differ from you onely in small matters 4. We agree with you as to the substance of Doctrine and worship 5. Yet we cannot joyn with you in all things without sin 6. And we cannot live without any one ordinance 7. Therefore we joyn in another Congregation only for the enjoyment of all ordinances for our spiritual good 8. Yet we will preserve all Christian Communion with the Saints in the Church Catholick 9. We cannot be Members of that Congregation where our dwelling is 10. However we will hold occasional Communion with you 11. This is no Schism or countenance of Schism or rigid separation 12. We cannot approve or edifie by the Parish Ministers 13. 'T is the priviledge of every one to choose his own Pastor 14. Living in
a Parish doth not make Members of a Church 15. Removal from one Parish to another is allowed and why not to a separate Cogregation 16. Tender Consciences ought thus to be relieved 17. It is against Christian charity to deny this liberty 18. This Liberty will prove the best means of Uniformity 19. What if we have liberty from the State to gather Churches 20. Some things may be tolerated that are thought unlawful 21. Multitudes that cannot conform must live without some ordinances all their days 22. Those that separate have given good Testimony of their Godliness and Peaceableness And have used all means first to know the mind of Christ 23. You charge us with Schism to render us odious All these were Independent Arguments in 1644. how they commensed to be Presbyterian in 1672. I know not But this I know that then the Presbyterians were not shy to declare gathering Churches out of our Churches under all flourishes and iittle pretenses was a Schismatical and dangerous Separation and not to be allowed For which they gave the world not onely their Authority but such Reasons as you have heard but shall never see answered Some of their Propositions follow Some of the Presbyterian Assertions whereby they refelled the foresaid Independent pretenses for gathering Churches as more at large appeareth in the Dialogue are these 1. OUr Parochial Congregations are true Churches 2. To make one a Member of such a Church it is sufficient that he professeth Christianity and lives in the Parish and he may claim Communion thereupon 3. The old Non-Conformists did not separate from the Parish Churches or renounce Membership though they thought kneeling at the Communion unlawful and I may add had as much cause to complain of Persecution and want of Reformation as any have now but did some of them with Zeal and Learning defend our Churches against those of the Separation 4. None ought to be indulged but such as agree with the establishment as to the substance of Doctrine and Worship 5. These should not be indulged so far as to separate and gather new Churches 6. This is Schism and the means of confusion in the Church and in Families 7. None are to be allowed to withdraw Communion in things wherein they agree with us But in all such things they ought to retain Communion with the Congregation where they live 8. The Separatists holding our Churches to be true Churches is an Aggravation of their Separation 9. To depart from Churches me acknowledg to be true is not to hold Communion with them as such but rather by departing to declare them not to be such 10. To leave all Ordinary communion in any Church with Dislike when Opposition or Offence offers it self is â—o Separate in the Scripture-Sense and was not in being in the Apostles times unless by false Teachers 11. All who professed Christianity in the Apostles times held Communion together notwithstanding differences in Judgment or corruptions in Practice 12. The Judgment of pure and impure Ordinances is not to be left to the alone discretion of a particular Person 13. To Separate from those Churches Ordinarily and Visibly with whom occasionally you may joyn without Sin seemeth to be a most unjust Separation 14. It is one thing to Remove to a Congregation that is under the same Rule another to a Congregation of a different constitution In the one a man retaineth his Membership in the other he Renounceth it 15. Testimonies of Godliness are no infallible Protections against Schism 16. 'T is no breach of Charity to hinder all unjust Separaions 17. A man may want the Lords Supper with less Danger then to purchase it by a sinful Separation 18. The Church is not bound to Indulge a Liberty to Erring Consciences especially to the evident disturbance of her own Peace 19. No pretences of tenderness of Consciences or of Edification or of enjoying all Ordinances or of holding Communion with us as Saints in the Church Catholick or of Occasional Communion with us as a particular Church or of holding communion with us as far as they â—re able or that they cannot joyn with us without Sin or lastly no acceptions that they take either against our Officers or Members None of these or any such can warrant a Sepaparation from us or gathering new Churches out of ours For these make not the Cause of a just separation which ought to appear ex natura rei Rememmber from whence thou art faln FINIS ERRATA PAge 33. Line 2. Read Not only for Wrath but also for Conscence sake Rom. 13. 5. p. 34. l. 14. dele and. p. 35. l. 18. r. things p. 40. l. 1. r. Subterfuges p. 54. l. 21. r. should not be p. 78. l. 17. r. our Government Some Books Printed for and sold by James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. OBservations upon Military and Political Affairs by the most Honourable George Duke of Albemarle Folio price 6. s. A Sermon Preached by Seth Lord Bishop of Sarum at the Funeral of the most Honourable George Duke of Albemarle Quarto price 6. d. Philosophia Pia or A Discourse of the Religious tendences of the Experimental Philosophy to which is added a Recommendation and Defence of Reason in the Affairs of Religion by Joseph Glanvil Rector of Bath Octavo price 2 s. The Way to Happiness represented in its Difficulties and Encouragemeents and cleared from many popular and dangerous mistakes by Joseph Glanvil A Praefatory Answer to Mr. Henry Stubbs the Doctor of Warwick by Jos Glanvil Octavo price 1. s. 6. d. The Life and Death of Mr. George Herbert the Excellent Author of the Divine Poems Written by Is Walton Octavo price 1. s. A Discourse of the Forbearance or penaties which a due Reformation requires by Herbert Thorndike one of the Prebendaries oâ— Westminster Octavo A Private Conference between a rich Alderman and a poor Country Vicar made Publick wherein is discoursed the Obligation of Oaths which have been imposed on the Subjects of England Octavo 2. s. The Episcopacy of the Church of England justified to be Apostolical from the Authority of the Primitive Church and from the confessions of the most famous Divines beyond the Seas by the Right Reverend the late Lord Bishop of Duresm with a Preface written by Sir Henry Yelverton Baronet Octavo A Collection of Sermons preached before the King at White-hall by the Right Reverend Father in God Seth Lord Bishop of Sarum Catholick Charity recommended in a Sermon before the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor of London in order to the abating the animosities among Christians that have been occasioned by differences in Religion by Jos Glanvile Rector of Bath price 6. d. A Mirrour of Christianity and a Miracle of Charity or an exact Narrative of the Life and Death of the Lady Alice Dutches Dudley by R. Coreman D. D. price 6 d. The General Assembly or the necessity of the receiving the Communion in our Publique Congregations evinced from the Nature of the Church the Word of God and Presbyterian Principles A Sermon by Francis Fulwood D. D. price 6. d. Miserere Cleri A Sermon presenting the Miseries of the Clergy and Assigning their true Causes in order to Redress by Edw. Wettenhall B. D. price 6. d. Vrim Thummim or the Clergies Dignity and Duty recommended in a Visitation Sermon by Mal. Convant B. D. price 6. d. A Discourse of Toleration in answer to a late Book entituled A Discourse of the Religion of England price 6. d. Indulgence not justified being a Continuation of the Discourse of Toleration in answer to the Arguments of a late Book entituled A Peace-Offering or Plea for Indulgence and to another call'd The second Discourse of the Religion of England price 6 d. Toleration not to be abus'd or a serious Question soberly debated and resolved upon Presbyterian Principles c. price 6 d. The Judgment of the Learned and Pious St. Augustine concerning Penal Laws against Conventicles and for Unity in Religion delivered in his 48 Epistle to Vincentius FINIS
3. 'T is further complain'd Nor Popery Reflec 〈◊〉 27. that some of us speak too much in favour of Popery saying they had rather be Papists then Phanaticks c. these though I have no mind to defend yet 't is evident they intend onely either thus to Droll with Phanatieks oâ— to shew an implacable aversness to Phanaticism which they may suppose they can hardly do in a higher Form of Speech then that which prefers Pâ—pery it self before it Though I think the excellent Dr. is not yet answered who hath proved Popery to be founded in the grossest sort of Phanaticism However Comparison's especiaily where the terms are so opposite must needs be offensive and odious yet our Brethren ought to consider that such supposed rash expressions reflect nothing upon the Church of England which as it owneth not such extravagancy in expression so it self is owned by them that use them as the best Churâ—h in the World But to my Brethren I make bold to say that I know no reason they have to prefer Popery bâ—yond some sort of Nâ—n-conformity I am sure 't is neither necessary nor seasonable The Papists may know to use your kindness beyond your intention and you find the Non-conformists are scandaliz'd at our very Church for your sake and puhlickly plead it against us already And you cannot but remember the late horrid consequences that the groundless suspition that our Clergy was Popishly affected hath had upon us both in Church and State Yea give me leave to say soberly that some atleast of our Non-comformists I hope are not worse then Papists in their Principles about civil Government and I hope too their other principles of Religion and their practises also are nearer to us then the Papists Neither need we look on Non-conformity all things considered as a more formidable Adversary In my weak opinion all that are not for Popery have reason to unite against it But whatever weakness Non-Conformists are guilty of in thinking otherwise it is a truth that there is no Bulwork so impregnable against Popery as the Constitution of the Church of England And none can read without some astonishment the incomparable Zeal of the Convocation in 1640 to secure our Church both from Popery and Socinianisme Lastly let me conjure you not Continue Loyalty to be guilty of the least whisper against the Government of his Sacred Majesty but to do your duties without murmuring You have hitherto had the honour of being styled the Loyal Clergy 'T is our true glory that our doctrine establisheth obedience to Princes upon the best Principles in the World Why should it be said that the Non-conformists are now the Royalists as an ingenuous Person J. H. intimates Though I must have leave to remember As it is by J. H. him that herein as well as in some other things he seems to take too much liberty to his phansie If the rest of his Brethren will stand to his Notion of the power of Conscience and the power of the Magistrate touching it I should desire to put it to no other issue whether their Principle or ours be the most Loyal He saith that uâ—lâ—ss the matter His first Principles considered of the Princes command bâ— antecedently necâ—ssary in the judgment of the Subject it being commanded in Scripture or required by the light of Nature for the common good the Conscience â—f the Subjâ—ct is not obliged to obâ—y that command Not bâ—ing here aware that obediâ—nce to man in things we judgâ— indifferent is both commandeâ— by Gâ—d in Scripture and required As he saâ—th him self p. 74. also by God in the Law of Nature for the common good i. eâ— for the security of the publick Peace and Gods own Vicegerency upon the Earth God sâ—ith particularly Submit your selves to every Ordinancâ— of man for the Lords sake that iâ— out of Conscience to God Obeâ— them that hâ—ve-Rulâ— over you give unto Caesar the thiâ—gs that are Caesars You must needs be subject â—ot onely for wealth but Conscience â—ake These are exprâ—ssed absoâ—lutely but where do you find his condition we need obey and â—ubmit onely for wrâ—th not out â—f Conscieâ—ce if the thing comâ—anded be not otherways necesâ—ary or but indifferent in it self When Man commands what God â—orbids 't is reason we obey God â—hough with disobedience to Man but when we may obey Man and not disobey God we â—ust do it in obedience to God â—hat is out of Conscience The difference betwixt us is â—lainly this We say the Coâ—sciâ—nce becomes obliged to obâ—y â—ur Prince by virtue of Gods â—ommand that we should obey â—im You seem to say that Conscience becomes obliged â—rom the matter or thing commanded which quite destroyeth all obligation of Consciencâ— to obey our Prince For you say when a thing is commanded by God or we think it tends to the publick good then onely Conscience is obliged to obey ouâ— Prince But this Obligation iâ— onely from the necessity of the thing commanded and becausâ— you approve it to be a duty before and consequently in obedience to your own Reason anâ— Judgment and and not at alâ— out â—f Conscience of the command or in obedience to the King for you were in youâ— Logâ—ck equally obliged to do it whether Man had commandeâ— you or not But in all other Cases you need obey onely for wraths sake that is no further thâ—n you are forced and therefore when you â—re got above fear you will not or need not regard Authority This Principle will hardly prâ—ve â—he Non-Conformâ—sts the onely Loyalists But to make the matter a litâ—le plainer lâ—t us consider what â—an oblige the Conscience but God and the notice of his Will Those things which are indiffeâ—ent in themselves before as Bread and Wine are therefore made the necessary Elements of the Lords Supper by Gods command â—nd ought therefore to be used â—n Conscience to God But if man â—ommand any thing there are â—wo thing considerable the â—atter or things commanded and â—he Authority or command it self â—f the thing commanded be â—uch as God hath commanded â—efore we are bound in Consciâ—nce to observe it two wayes from the necessity of the matter and from the Authority â—f the command which are both from God for he that hath said before Do this hath also said Obeâ— your Governours But if the thing commandeâ— by man were not commandeâ— by God before and be not forbidden any way by him though the first way of obligation frâ—m the matter fails yet the seconâ— holds and obligation from God to obey our Gâ—vernours iâ— still upâ—n Conscience from thâ— notâ—ce of Gods will in that Case Besidâ—s as was before observed in all â—uch indiffâ—rent things Goâ— requires obedience to our Governours not onely by his positivâ— Laws in Scripture as if such obedience were indifferent beforâ— he required it but also by thâ— Laws of Nature for the preservation of Government and the â—ublick good Consider well that
scruple to hear all Ministers amongst them to Preach as they have occasion nor possibly someto hear them read COMMON PRAYER but will be ready to go with him as far as they can And thus also you have their opinion as to the last Case viz. Whether such as say they cannot in Conscience joyn with us in all things have any ground to leave us in those parts of worship wherein they can You have heard both these Authors when they purposely set themselves to speak to these very points to intimate their Confession for the Negative Upon this very ground Ames seems to affirm there may be no total Separation from a true Church but onely partial quatenus Communio non potest absque peccato exerceri so far as we may not communicate without sin What man can think it reasonable that such as live within the bounds of any true particular Church should for some offences renounce all Communion with it or as I said at first divide and separate more then needs When once you can weigh the evil of division and value Peace in the Church and union amongst Brethren truly as you ought you will be then of the same mind with with us O let no prejudice or partial respect of things or persons any longer captivate your minds in Errour leading to a practice so dangerous in its consequence as I have shewn and so unreasonable in its Principles as your stoutest Friends in the Field of controversie would not dare to defend Yea whose very Professions and personal Practices are for the contrary and would teach you better My first Answerer hath many other very good Directions both to you and your Teachers for which I thank him and which I earnestly desire you to consider and follow Remarques upon the late Reflections on Toleration not to be abused THese shore Reflections might have been much shorter and none of the Authors Reason been lost Some of them might have been spared for that they reflect upon the Author himself viz. such as these Blessed God! when will the lust of implacable men be satisfied upon their Brethren p. 5. the Author seems to be incredibly serious p. 6. Doth it not seem ridiculous to you p. 22. 'T is both malitious and nonsensical imputation p. 22. They may it seems toler atc any thing but his Majesty may not p. 25. as to the fear of Popery I wish he and his Friends were in earnest p. 27. 'T is well known most of the Conformists are Arminians p. 28. If he had favour'd me with his Notion of a true particular Church c. but this was not for Interest p. 29. These and such kind of Reflections seem not to be worthy of a pure light that so lately came out of great darkness and tribulation as he every where complains But this kind of Reflections I have no mind to answer I have indeed made reply to all the other parts of his Book But upon Second thoughts have yet resolved to publish onely so much of it as concerns the Argument so far as it is New and not so fully considered as perhaps might be desired in my Reply to my other Answerer The very Question almost in Titâ—e page ' his own words is this Whether it be not a sinful Separation and contrary to the Principles of the late Presbyterians to gather themselves into Congregations distinct and separate from the parochial Assemblies under present Circâ—mstances Thus I affiâ—m and he denieth The Sum of that which he offereth against it is reduceable to these two Propositâ—ons 1. We hold the Church of Rome to be a true Church and yet Separate from it 2. Our Parochial are not true Churches or at least they are so faulty as they may lawfully be separated from The first of these is much insisted on by my other Adversary to whom I have answered in another place we find it twice at least in these Reflections p. 17. by the same Weapon saith he by which our Brerhren aefend their Separation from Rome we defend our Secession in some Ordiâ—ances from them But how you shall defend your Secession in all Ordinances would also be considered But more briskly to the same purpose p. 23. he queries thus Have not our Brethren Separated from the Church of Rome yet many of them do own the Church of Rome as a true Church When they have reconciled themselves to to these assertions of their own they will be able to see what answer we may give them also If they may separate from a Church which they own as true then surely we may do so too But hereunto I answer 1. When I affirmed that it was unlawful to gather a Church out of a true Church which was the ground of his Reflection I did personate and spake the propositior of the late Presbyterians And you do not say the Presbyterians hold the Church of Rome to be a true Church So that as to them the Argument may be still valid enough And those of us that you say hold the Church of Rome to be a true Church may have and indeed have other Arguments to condemn your Separation 2. You know that was a current Argument of the late Presbyterians against the Independents and I used it as theirs And if it be inconsequent charge them with bad Logick and say they were mistaken not I. 3. 'T is most certain this is no good Logick with the old Presbyterians We may separate from the Church of Rome therefore from the Church of England And when they urge their Adversaries with the unlawfulness of gathering Churches out of true Churches they supposed they spake to Persons that understood what true Churches they meant viz. Our Parochial Congregations And that out of such true Churches as ours are where we have the Word and Sacraments truly dispensed and we may communicate without sin it is not lawful to separate and gather Churches 4. It is not enongh for you to say our Communion is so corrupt as you cannot communicate in it we prove that the Communion of the Roman Church is such Upon this ground the Brownists the Quaker the vilest Separatist and Heretick is armed and may as well say you separate from Rome that you take to be a true Church therefore we may separate from you whether ye be â—o or not 5. For the Fathers of the Church of England many of them do indeed hold the Church of Rome to be verè a Church of Christ yet generally they say she is not vera Ecclesia she is truly a Church as to the Essence but not morally a true Church having neither the Word truly Preached nor the Sacraments rightly administred in it which Calvin makes Essential to a true Church I dare undertake to make it evident when he shall vouchsafe to name those principal Fathers whom now he is forsooth unwilling to name for what Reason I know not I dare undertake I say to make it evident that they meant no other thing
though they may take the Liberty of their own words 6. The sum is the Presbyterians hold the Church of Rome to be a false Church and say you may not gather a Church out of a true Church The Episcopal Divines say that the Church of Rome is truely a Church but not true as a Church should be but false and corrupt both in her Doctrine and Worship so as none can lawfully joyn with her And yet the Church of England is both truly a Church and a a true Church where the Word of God is truly taught whose Doctrine the very Non-Conformists approve of in whose worship many of them say we may joyn without sin where the Sacraments are also rightly administred And therefore without all further controversie they may hold that it is lawful to separate from the Church of Rome but sinful to separate from the Church of England and yet not be able to see what Answer you may give them 7. Besides lastly you may easily know that our eminent Fathers say that if we are in Schism from Rome the Papists themselves were guilty of it in Henry the 8th yea that we did not do not separate from the Church of Rome for we really were never of that Church We never did owe any Communion to to that Church That under the encouragement of own Government and by the authority thereof we onely reformed our selves without separating from Rome or any other Church And if so as in truth it is much good may your Consequence do you 8. But he also intimates a Reflection upon our Churches He doth not indeed speak out but he speaks as if our Parochial Assemblies were either no true Churches or such as we may lawfully Separate from Hear him p. 15. where he first coâ—cedes fairly We do believe saith he that from a Church a number of Christians that have consented to a Pastor that is able and faithful and regularly administers the Ordinances of Christ so as a People may communicate without sin and pressing forward towards perfection in order Christians may not separate without sin And this is that indeed saith he which some Presbyterians reflected upon our Brethren of the Congregational way for And these were those Parochial Churches which they contended for as true Churches And now the bottom is out and his Fallicy is apparent in his foisting I would use an easier word if I could his foisting in now and strange matter into the nature of a true Church and then fathering it upon the Presbyterians when 't is purely Independent Brownistical or his own For if there be any consequence in what he hath said 't is this A Church where the Pastor is duly qualified and the People consent to him and both press forward towards perfection in order you may not separate from But if the Pastor be not in all points well qualified or if the People do not approve of him or if they do noâ— press forward towards perfection in order one may separatâ— from such a Church and the laâ— Presbyterians said nothing to the contrary But suppose the Pastor be faulty in some particulars of his life if he regularly administers in his Office or suppose he be a good man and a diligent Minister and be set over a People by the Laws of our own Church but the People do not like him will you say this is no true Church for these Reasons If you are a Presbyterian you dare not May one separate from such a Church for these Reasons or for these Reasons may you betake your self to a Church of another Constitution was ever this the opinion of the Old Non-Conformists or late Presbyterians Say it not for shame But the weight is behind in the last condition Pressing forward towards Perfection in order These were the Parochial Churches where this excellency was found which the late Presbyterians conâ—ended for as true Churches Thus he would draw his Presbyterian Brethren to own that which is contrary to their express sense and words for they did ex professo dispute that order and discipline was not essential to a true Church and onely for the want of it none might separate In earnest Suppose a Church thinks her Order as to the Government is as perfect as she can or need to have it And she desires that the Execution were better but cannot have it so Yea suppose a Church too careless in this matter whether it be well or no will you or any Presbyterian say it is therefore no true Church or we may therefore separate from it Was not this the Case of the Church of Corinth Doth the Apostle advise or allow any Separation in this case Though their Doctrine also was more corrupt then Arminianism that so much offends you and their Communion debauched even with Intemperance and Luxury Besides whatever unjust and unconscionable clamours we labour under we are ready to maintain that our Ministers generally are of holy and unblameable Lives and do faithfully and regularly administer both the Word and Sacraments and that our People generally do or very lately did submit to their Parochial Ministers and really own them as their Guides by their attendance upon the worship of God in our Temples and those few that did not I hope I have sufficiently proved that they ought to have done it And now I shall venture to appeal to the Conscience of my Reflecter himself whether so general and total a defection and decession from a true Church as he seemeth to acknowledge some of ours to be and if any sure they are such as they separate from would have been judged other then Schismatical by the Apostles themselves or by the Fathers or by the reformed Churches beyond Sea or by our own ancient Non-Conformists if no other Reason could be alledged for it but what he hath here urged As for the late Presbyterians indeed it is the very question what they thought of this point and whether it be lawful in their Judgment for such Reasons as he hath brought us to separate and to gather our People into new Churches will better appear from their own words for they can yet speak for themselves and you will find they do it fully in the following Dialogue What the Reflection means by P. 14. putting A Subjection in all the Ordinances of the Gospel to the Lord Jesus Christ into the definition of the Church I cannot certainly divine but if it signifie any thing more then the received Definitions of a true Church it signifies nothing but an Engine of Divisions The Presbyterians perhaps will have it in to serve his Ruling Elder The Independent to keep out all Forein Jurisdiction and keep himself exempt from all power without the bounds of a particular Church The Anabaptist for the necessity of Baptizing as necessary to a true Church And thus it becomes an Instrument fitted for the mutual damning one another Whereas if the difinition of Calvin and reformed Divines keep its
of the holy Scriptures Preaching hath obtained in the universal Church to this day Who shall question whether Preaching whereby we address to God adoring him for his mercy and truth in the Ministry of the Priests Lips be a part of divine worship I am sure the Injunctions of his present Majesty makes it part of divine Service With reference to Preaching also we have our Ordination and Institution and the Laws and Canons require it at our hands Why should our Adversaries triumph and say we are against Preaching and that we speak against it to excuse our idleness or inability are not we best known by the name of Preachers do they not by our Preaching see their most need of us do they not hence raise their value and estimation for us do what you can and spare not to recover the honour due to the Priesthood in other regards But if all the rest be lost I see no reason we should hazard this also It is said the Preachers of our Church are famous and have long been famous through the Christian World for Preaching Let no man take our Crown let us not throw it away our selves 2. I perceive also offence hath Avoid Socinianism and the suspition of it been taken of the pretended rational way of some of our Preachers both in their Preaching and Writing Though no sobâ—r man can doubt but that it hath been of late improved very excellently for the baffling of Popery and the shaming of Phanaticism out â—f the World But seeing the Law of Religion is twofold viz. that of Reason and revelation Phanaticism seems to be twofold also When men so adhere to Revelation as to despise Reason or so to glory in Reason as to neglect Revelation onely with this difference the first do sine Ratione and the later cum ratione insanire having the honour to run mad in the Rational way Mâ— thinks it is safest so to use our Reason about Religâ—on as not to draw the suspition either of Sociniaâ—sme or Infidelity Admit there were neither Phanatick in ordinary sâ—ncâ— nor Papist in the World what have we gained if we have hazarded Christianity neither can I bear with so general and accommodated an account of the Christian Religion whatsoever iâ—s pretenses arâ— as a Jew a Turk or a Pagan mâ—y subscribe We glory and that justly in the great Title of Ministers of the Gospel and we are set for the defense of it And what is the Gospel in strictness of Speech but the glad tidings of Salvation by Faith in the Redemption of Christ and the Sanctification of the Holy Ghost And he that seems to despise these is not more like to a Socinian then an Infidel but more like either then a Minister of the Gospel Is not Faith both in the grace and profession of it a great part of the Christian Religion or is there nothing in the object of the Christian Faith but what is Reason abstracted from Revelaâ—ion I am not altogether ignorant of the learned attempts this way though to no great purpose I know we cannot believe and know not why yet we use to say that the Arguments inducing Faith are not taken from the nature of the Object but from the credibility or infallibility of the Author or deliverer of it And our Faith in the prime Doctrines of the Gospel is built not upon them as reasonable in themselves but upon Testimony from him that cannot deceive us According to our Catechism we say we believe in God the Father that made the World Now if Reason could have found out certainly that the World was made yet that it was made by the Word of God or by the Son of God or that things that do Heb. 11. 1. now appear were made of things which did not i. e. that all things were made out of nothing these things the Apostle you know referreth to Faith as things never to have been discovered without special Revelation Much less that those other great Articles touching the Redemption of Christ and the Sanctification of the Holy Ghost if you consider them in their Evangelical Latitude That the Second Person in the Trinity should assume the humane Nature into an Hypostatical union with it self that this nature should be conceived by the Holy Ghost born of a pure Virgâ—n That there is a Messias and that this is He. That he died for our sins that he rose again for our justification That he ascended to Hâ—avâ—n and there sits â—n the right hand of God and that thence he shall come again to Judge the World All these are things that Reason is an utter Stranger to For great is the Mystery of Godliness God manifested in the Flesh c. Again that there is a third Person in the Deity that this is the Holy Ghost that inspired the Divine Writers and confirmâ—d the Gospel by Miracles That he is sent down frâ—m Heaven to convince the World to instruct and sanctifie to govern guide and comfort the Church These things we all stâ—dfastly believe as Evangelical Verities not discoverable by any other Light then that of divine and special Revelation I might add that Repentance it self though it be a very reasonable thing in those that have offended in order to pardon c. Yet as it is a grace of this Spirit and as it is a condition of the new Covenant it is matter of Faith and not to be discovered by Reason alone This is the Word of Faith that we ought to Preach and profess and thereby give our Testimony that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the World 1 Joh. 4. 14. In this the Apostles and Primitive Martyrs were all Confessors Search Antiquity and you find all ancient Offices to have been compiled as it were for the same purpose Our Church both in her Doctrine and Worship is a great Pillar of Christianity whereon little else is written but Jesus Christ Review our Catechisme and Collects Hymns and Litany and several Creeds as well as the Offices of the Sacraments together with the reason and end of all our Festivals and particularly of the Lords day and you cannot but be confirm'd in the acknowledgment of our great profession of the Gospel of Christ Then let the World be Infidel but we that are Christians and Ministers of Christ let us joy in believing and in our places own and prosess the Gospel by Faith which we cannot comprehend by Reason Let us hold fast the Doctrine and keep close to the worship and obsâ—rve the Festivals of our own Church as the true Sons of it and there can be no colour for any suspicion or imputation of Socinianisme upon us The sum is notwithstanding the private opinions of some men he must needs be very weak that shall fly from the Church of England for fear of Socinianism of which none can possibly doubt that moreover read the Canons made by the Bishops and the rest of our Clergy in the Convocation of 1640.
authority viz. that where the Word of God is truly preach'd and the Sacraments rightly administred there is a true Church Mr. Baxter hath room enough for his large Charity to think they are all true Churches though Schismatical That is though they are made up of Sheep gone astray from their proper Folds to which they yet owe themselves and ought to return A Dialogue BETWIXT THE INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN About gathering of CHURCHES Taken out of a Book called the Grand Debate and Papers therein Printed as they were given in to the Committy of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Acommodation 1644. Printed in 1648. LONDON Printed for James Collins at the Kings Arms in Ludgate-street 1673. TO THE Reader Good Reader PErhaps thou mayest censure me too severe with my Answerers in expposing this old difference to a publick review but why then did they give me so great an advantage and provoke me to take it in my own defense Why did they Scandalize the World and many of their own Friends too who are yet living Witnesses of that so notorious a contest by mincing the matter seeming shy to acknowledge that the then Presbyterians were against gathering new Churches out of the Parochial To say nothing of their opinion of Toleration For what Toleration as to our purpose could they that were Presbyterians be thought â—â— indulge who so stifly refused to allow it to their Independent Brethren particularly in the very point of gathering Churches In this following Dialogue you have no feigned disguise on either side but both speaking over again their own Sense and Reason and words throughout almost verbatim As they were given in by themselves to the Committee of the long Parliament as appears in the second part of the grand Debate published by Persons intrusted by both Parties By way of Introduction You need not be remembred that the Presbyterians were earnest for an establishment with Uniformity and did declare that the Members of particular Congregations do cohabit and live together within certain bounds and Precincts of a Parish p. 6. n. 9. The Independents not well satisfied moved for an Indulgence and the Dialague may be supposed to begin thus A DIALOGUE Betwixt the INDEPENDENT AND PRESBYTERIAN Taken out of Papers given to the Committee of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines with the Commissioners of Scotland for Accomodations 1644. Printed 1648. Indep WE are not against your Rule and the establishment you desire onely we cannot in Conscionce be so confined And therefore we desire liberty to worship God in our own way by our selves Presh We are not altogether against an Indulgence but we would have none allowed the benefit of it but such as agree with us as to the substance of their Faith and Worship Indep Therefore you cannot deny it to us who thus agree with you Presh 1. But your desire plainly holds out a total separation As if our Churches were not to be communicated with in any thing which should argue Church-Communion and more could not be said or done against false Churches 2. It also plainly holds out the lawfulness of gathering Churches out of true Churches yea they add by way of aggravation the cause of our Reflecters mistake such true Churches as endeavour further to reform Whereof we are assured there is not the least hint of an Example in the Word of God 3. This liberty would pull down what the Parliament would set up and would give you a greater priviledge then we enjoy who are under the Rule of establishment 4. This would give countenance to a perpetual Schism and Division in the Church still drawing away from the Churches under the Rule c. and introduce all manner of confusion in Families where the Members are of several Churches Indep What liberty then are you contented to allow us that differ from you almost in nothing but matters of Government Presb. None may be allowed upon differences onely in matter of Government to withdraw Communion from us in things wherein they declare an agreement There may be no such indulgence granted to any as may constitute them in distinct Congregations as to those parts of worship where they can joyn in Communion with us Onely some expedient may be found to bear with them in the particulars wherein they cannot agree with us Indep What expedient Presb. Such as through scruple or error of Conscience cannot joyn to partaâ—e of the Lords Supper shall repair to the Minister and Elders for satisfaction in their Scruples which if they cannot receive they shall not be compelled to communicate Provided that in all other parts of worship they joyn with the Congregation in which they live and be under the Government of that Congregation So far you have in p. 18 19 20 c. Indep If this be all we must be pâ—ain with you We can't joyn with you without sin We would not liâ—ve without Ordinances And for the enjoyment of them for for our edâ—fiâ—cation we would joyn in another Congregation Yet so as not condemning those Churches we joyn not with as false but still preserving all Christian Communion with the Saints of the same body of the Church Catholick and joyn with them in all duties of worship that belong to particular Churches so far as we are able If this be called Schisme or the countenance of Schism it is more than we have yet learned p. 36. Is not this a very fair Plea It was once Independency And the Presbyterians then answer'd to it in every particular Indep We cannot without sin to us enjoy all the Ordinances of Christ and partake of all duties of worship as Members of that Congregation where our dwelling is And what would you have us do Presb. If you cannot in all yet partake in as many duties and ordinances as you can And let the Indulgence onely supply that wherein you cannot and not exempt you universally in that wherein you can But we desire you would speak freely and candidly Can you enjoy any one Ordinance in our Congregation as Members We should be glad to hear from you that you can be Members of that Congregation where your dwelling is p. 70. Indep But you know we cannot live without Ordinances for our edification Therefore for our spiritual good we may lawfully joyn in another Congregation Presb. 1. This will not follow upon your own Concession For you consess you can occasionally joyn with us without sin and why not constantly 2. Your Conscience may erre And the Church is no way bound to indulge a liberty then especially to the evident disturbance of her own peace 3. Whatever indulgence is granted let this be the boundary of it which is given by our Brethren themselves viz. that such as give no Testimony of their Godliness and Peaceableness such as have not used all means in faithfulness to know the mind of Christ such as do condemn those Churches which they joyn not with as
they are all but the mediums to liberty and exemptions from Government Indep But living in a Parish doth not make us Members of the Church Presb. We grant it a man must in order of Nature first be a Member of the Church visible and then living in a Parish and making profession of Christianity he may claim admission into the Society of Christians within those bounds and enjoy the Ordinances which are there dispensed Indep Where is your Christian Charity We would edifie our selves the best we can and though we differ but in very small matters you will not suffer us Presb. Can you not be edified without Scandalizing the Church of God we leave to all men to judge whose Charity is greatest their 's who labour to preserve union or theirs who resolve to separate and break it We think Charity binds Christians to prevent all unjust and needless Separation We wonder at your Charity that coming so near us in Doctrine and worship nothing should content you but a Separation p. 105 106. Indep We cannot in Conscience set down where we cannot enjoy all the Ordinances p. 122. Presb. 1. Have you all the Ordinances in your own Churches 2. Do you not hold ruling Elders to be an Ordinance have you these Or be your Churches without some one ordinance and not ours 3. To determine Controversies of Faith cases of conscience judicially is an Ordinance If you must be of no Church but where that is exercised and the liberty of opinions restrained your Churches would be soon destroyed And you would find it we believe difficult to gather more Indep This would prove the best means of Uniformity and Conjunction to allow us distinct Churches according to our own Principles Presb. This is a Riddle we wonder how disjunction can be the only way of Conjunction and Multiformity of Uniformity and Separation of Communion and different Principles and Practises of Conformity What Churches under Heaven may we not hold Conjunction Uniformity and Communion with upon such terms p. 123. Indep But tender Consciences ought to be relieved Presb. We desire to know whether every Persons bare â—lleadging tenderness of Conscience shall be sufficient to warrant his deserting our Congregations p. 49. 2. We much doubt whether such tenderness as ariseth out of an opâ—nion oui potest subesse falsum when the Conscience is so tender that it may also be an erring Conscience can be a sufficient ground to justifie such material Separation as our Brethren plead for For though it may bind to forbear or suspend the Act of Communion in that particulur wherein men conceive they cannot hold Communion without sin yet it doth noâ— bind to follow such a positiv prescript as possibly may be diverse from the Will and Counseâ— of God Of which kind wâ— conceive this of gathering separated Churches out of other truâ— Churches to be one p. 51. Indep In case the Lords Supper be not administred in parity a â—emoval is allowed ordinarily Now we would only gather our selves into other Churches for â—urer enjoyment as to our Conâ—ciencis of all ordinances p. 50 51. Presb. We conceive the ground of your Separation from â—ne Church and gathering oâ—hers to this end that you may â—e preserved from sinning â—gainst your Conscieâ—ces and â—or the purer enjoyment of Orâ—inances may to men of other â—udgments be a ground to crave â—oleration for separating from Churches which are pure and â—athering impure and corrupt Churches out of them p. 50. It was never the meaning of â—he Assemblies to leave the Judgâ—ent of pure or impure Ordinances to this Case unto the alone discretion of a particular Person But before any leave 〈◊〉 Parochial Congregation ordinarily he ought to declare the Cause of his grievance that if it may be his removal may be prevented Except he think fit to change his dwelling in which Case his removal is without offence Indep VVhy may it not be as lawful to go to a separate Congregation for relief as to remove our dwelling to another Parish Presb. It is one thing to remove to a Congregation which is under the same Rule another to a Congregation of a dâ—fferent constitution from the Rule In the one a maâ— retains his Membership in the other he renounceth it p. 52. Indep If the purest Churches in the VVorld unto our Judgement in all other respects should impose as a condition in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper any one thing that such tender Consciences cannot Joyn in as suppose kneeling if they remove from these Churches and have liberty from the State to gather into other Churches to enjoy this and other Ordinances â—here is no Separation Presb. 1. If a Church require that which is evil of any Member he must forbear to do it yet without Separation and waite on Gods Providence in the dispensation of that Church till all remedies have been tryed 2. He that is in this kind oppressed may be relieved by Appeal or change his dwelling 3. They who thought kneeling in the Act of Communion to be unlawful either in England or Scotland did separate or renounce Membership but did some of them with Zeal and Learâ—ing defend our Churches against those of the Separation Indep But we hope you will not question us if we have liberty from the State to gather into other Churches Presb. The Nature of Separation is not to be measured by civil Acts or State but by the Word of God what notion you have of it we know not but surely to leave all ordinary Communion in any Church with dâ—slike when opposition or offence offers it self is to separate from such a Church in the Scripture since such a Separation was not in the Apostles times unless it were used by false Teachers all who professed Christianity held Communion together notwithstanding differences of Judgment or Corruptions in practise p. 55. Indep Our Churches cannot be thought to be guilty of a plain and total Separation unless we did wholly in all things differ by setting up altogether differing Rules of Constitution VVorship and Government Presb. Of this Assertion we expect some proof We read not the like in any Author antient or modern Under this pretense Novatians Donatists all that ever were thought to separate may shelter themselves who themselves boasting of their Separation the most rigid Separatists hold the same Rule of worship and government for substance with you We desire you to consider if every small and circumstantial difference amongst those who agree in most things and those most substantial shall be a sufficient ground to gather Churches out of Churches into a separate and distinct Communion how the Churches of God shall ever be kept free from Rents and Divisions and how the Peace thereof is possible to be preserved Indep But as we hold your Churches to be true Churches so we are ready to hold occasional Communion with them Presb. 1. You have estranged your selves from us hitherto and we have reason to question in what