ouerthrowen as Pompey was If your arguments were as tidie as your speeches are confident there were no dealing with you I perceiue the greatest barkers are not the sorest biters Answere me I pray you directly to these questions Doe you thinke because our vnpreaching ministers are not preaching ministers that no sacraments either were or are administred by them Before you denie it not If you should neither sacrifices nor sacraments were offered or administred by your ignorāt Leuitical priests for they were vnpreaching ministers Do you thinke that al such are polluted which receiue a Sacrament at the handes of vnpreaching ministers If you doe then was Saint Paul polluted which communicated with your ignorant Leuites for they were vnpreaching ministers Thus you see to what streights you are driuen CHAP. 25. I. Penry THE MINISTERIE OF OVR vnpreaching ministers is not a preaching ministerie IF the ministerie of vnpreaching ministers be a preaching ministerie or if their function be a pastorall or doctoral function then there had bene a preaching ministery a pastorall and doctorall function knowen in the Church though there neuer had bene any preacher therein Otherwise howe can their ministery be a preaching ministery or their function be a pastorall function whereas the same may be in the Church no preaching ministery or pastorall function being knowen there But no Church much lesse a ministery had there bene knowen if there neuer had bene any that could haue preached Because God ordeined the Saints and so a Church onely to be gathered together by preaching ordinarily but not by the ministery of readers because it might haue bene in the worlde yet no saint gathered thereby which thing experience in our Church prooueth to be too true R. Some You would thinke him strangely occupied that should set downe argumēts to proue that midnight is not high noone Your labour is such in this particular and you sweate moyle in it very busily The gaine you are like to reape is your labour for your trauaile You write that if no preaching had bene no Church had bene If you meane that no Church had ordinarily bene without preaching that is that preaching is the ordinarie means for the beginning and growth of the Church I assent vnto you but I adde this that it hath and doeth please God by the reading of the holy Scriptures and the working of his Spirit to renue the hearts of many If you shall answere that this course is not so ordinarie as the other I will accept your answere and withall confesse that in this point no difference is betweene vs. I. Penry My 2. and 3. reasons are drawen out of these wordes of Paul Rom. 12.6 7.8 Seeing then that we haue giftes that are diuers according to the grace that is giuen vnto vs whether we haue prophecie let vs prophecie according to the proportion of faith or an office let vs waite on the office or he that teacheth on teaching or he that exhorteth on exhorting c. The 2. reason is thus concluded Whosoeuer hath receiued a ministery and so a pastorall or doctorall function hee hath receiued prophecie spoken of in this place verse 6. Because euery pastoral or doctorall function mentioned in the 7. and 8. verse vnder these words he that teacheth hee that exhorteth are conteined vnder the word prophecie vers 6. Insomuch as he that hath not receiued that prophecie there set downe wherby is ment the interpretation of the word he hath not receiued the pastorall or doctoral function set downe vers 7.8 But vnpreaching ministers haue not receiued the prophecie spoken of in this place which is expresly set downe verse 6. to be one of the diuers gifts bestowed for the gouernment of the body which is the Church Therefore also they haue receiued neither a pastoral nor a doctorall function and so no preaching ministery R. Some Your drifte is as before to proue that our ignorant ministers are vnfurnished therefore no preachers You say true Will you conclude of this that they haue no ministerie at all that the actions of their ministery viz. the administration of the sacraments the reading of the holy scriptures c. are not profitable in any sort to the godly assēbly If you dispute thus I deny your argument and do giue this reason An absurde Magistrate is not furnished by almightie God and therefore vtterly vnfit to be Gods lieutenant but we may not inferre of this that the actes done by him in his magistracie are not the actes of a Magistrate If you tell me that the arguments for vnfit magistrates ministers are of seuerall stamps I graunt you say so So did when time was an other grosse Anabaptist but all learned men agree with me and dissent from you I. Penry 3 No ministery is separated from a gift because prophecie spoken of in this 6. verse vnder which as we see euery pastorall and doctorall ministery is conteined cannot bee seuered from a gift but the ministery of our readers is seuered in them from a gift therefore in them it is no ministery It is no ministery in them I say although that ministery the generall name whereof they haue is not seuered from a gift in preaching ministers But what is that to them what is the ministery of other men vnto them they are not ministers by the ministery wherewith other men are endued but by their owne which being seuered from a gift is no ministery Paul had bin no Apostle had receiued no Apostleship vnlesse he could haue sayd I am a minister according vnto the grace giuen vnto mee Ephe. 3.7 and not according to the grace giuen vnto other Apostles the generall name of whose Apostleship I am entituled with A ridiculous speache it were to say mine apostleship hath receiued grace but I that am the apostle haue receiued none Howe then may our readers claime a preaching ministery vnto themselues seeing the ministery which they challenge is altogether in them without a gift though it be not so in others R. Some I graunt that no lawfull and good Minister of God wants furniture of gifts If you will conclude of this that the approbation of the Church is nothing if sufficiēt parts be wanting in them which are admitted to the ministerie I denie your argument and doe offer you for my reason a floure of your owne garden euen that which you haue written before in these wordes viz. that vnfitnesse to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuitical priests office If you answere that extreeme ignorance in the Leuiticall priestes did neither barre them from nor strippe them of the Leuiticall priesthood I replie that this is a positiue and perpetual law of almightie God for the priestes then for the Ministers now viz. The priests lips shall keepe knowledge Mal. 2. yea M. Caluine a famous learned man writeth vpon that place of Malachie that Sacerdos doctor sunt termini conuertibiles that is that Gods priest a teacher are so neere of
ignorant men which are not acquainted with Gods booke be kept and thrust out of the holy ministerie vnlesse they will be partakers of great sinnes and consequently of great plagues A sufficient teacher is a rare blessing for he setteth the Lords plough forward and is Gods hand to deliuer heauenly treasures If good care shall be had by our Prince our Bishops our Patrons to goe on in aduancing and making choise of such both gouernors and pastors Gods religion Church Vniuersities will flourish more notably and consequently Gods glory our gracious Prince shall be more soundly honoured the people of the land shall be singularly encouraged to serue God to fight for the religion for their Prince for their countrey against any either forraine or home enemie and Gods fauour and blessings shall be multiplied vpon our Queene vpon vs and vpon our posteritie Almightie God will accept this at our hands for great thankfulnes for his late mercy in preseruing the English both fleet and nation and amazing dispersing the popish fleet by his mighty hand This gracious and notable fauour of God hath danted Gods our enemies in al popish kingdomes and churches and hath put life into Gods seruants in all nations Churches that professe the religion The Lord for his Christes sake graunt that we may be reuerently mindfull of and humbly thankfull to his maiestie for this deliuerance And that as in the time of danger we vsed the 83. and 68. psalmes to entreate Gods fauour so we may euer sing the 124. and 46. psalmes to publish Gods mercie and to testifie our thankfulnes for this gracious conquest CHAP. 3. ALMIGHTIE GOD NEVER called any to Magistracie but hee furnished them accordingly THe Egyptians were harde masters to the Israelites They kept them very short in Egypt When almighty God would blesse the Israelites with freedom and gouernment he furnished Moses notably for that excellent seruice He gaue him singuler wisedome courage c. If he had not Moses had bene vtterly vnfit for such a famous match Moses complained vnto the Lorde that hee alone was not able to gouerne the Israelites Almightie God for the ease of Moses appointed 70. Elders of Israel to help in that gouernment That those Ancients might cary thēselues profitably in that charge the Lord did garnish them accordingly Num. 11. Moses before his death desired the Lorde to appoint one to succeede him in the gouernment that the Israelites might not be as sheepe without a shepheard Num. 27. Gods pleasure was that Iosua should be the man Deut. 34. He did so assist and furnish him with the feare of God with the spirit of wisedome courage c. that he became very famous in peace in warre at and after his dying day The Church common wealth of the Israelites decayed greatly were at a low ebbe in king Sauls time That both Church and cōmon wealth might be reuiued the Lord aduanced his seruant Dauid to the kingdome He did beautifie him with extraordinary graces as with precious Diamonds Dauid was very religious very wise very valiant very religious for hee brought home the Lordes Arke very wise for his royal throne was a seate of Iustice very valiant for he vanquished many enemies Salomō succeeded his father Dauid in the gouernment of the Israelites That he might cary himselfe accordingly in that great charge he desired and obtained at Gods hands a wise and vnderstanding heart 1. King 3. Shebna was a great officer in Ezechias Court His course was cunning and dangerous to the common wealth of Iuda Almightie God coulde not beare him therefore sent a notable vengeance vpon him In his steade Eliakim was appointed vnder the King of Iuda A man singularly furnished by the Lord for he was a father of the inhabitants of Ierusalem and of the house of Iuda Esay 22. Ioseph was aduanced in Egypt Nehemias in Persia Daniel in Chaldea They dealt excellently in their gouernment for almightie God did notable furnish them Gedeon was a very meane man he attended on the flaile In his time the Madianites were heauie to the Israelites 7. yeeres That the Lord might deliuer his people from the tyrannie of the Madianites he furnished Gedeon for that seruice in extraordinary sort Iudg. 6. and 7. chap. There were in Gedeon which ought to be in euery Captaine both by sea and land Scientia rei militaris virtus authoritas faelicitas Cic. pro lege Manil. That is skil in warlike affaires vertue authoritie felicitie They which are inwardly called to the Magistracie are such as are furnished by the Lord with good parts for that weighty function They are not brambles as Abimelech was nor sots as Maximinus was nor fooles as Candaules was They are vine figge oliue trees as Dauid Ezechias Iosaphat Constantinus were These are such Magistrates in whom God delighteth and which are best welcome to Gods people for they are rare ornaments both of Church and common wealth God increase the number of such in this lande that both Church and common wealth may shine continually as starres at home abroade c. to the glory of God the honour of the Prince the terrour of the enemie and the comfort of the English nation CHAP. 4. THE READING OF THE holy Scripture doth edifie MOses commaunded the Priests in this sort c. When all Israel shall come to appeare before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall chuse thou shalt reade this lawe before all Israel that they may heare it Gather the people together men and women and children and thy stranger that is within thy gates that they may heare and that they may learne and feare the Lord your God and keepe and obserue all the wordes of this law And that their children which haue not knowen it may heare it and learne to feare the Lord your God c. Deut. 31. I gather my argument out of this place thus By reading of the lawe of God the Israelites did learne and feare God therefore they were edified If you reply that all the Israelites did not profite by this reading I answere no more did all profit by the preaching of the Prophets of Christ and the Apostles The fault was not in the seed but in the ground Vnlesse Gods spirit touch our hearts as the worde doeth pearce our eares Gods truth either read or preached is a shut booke and as a sealed letter vnto vs. When hee shall sit vpon the throne of his kingdome then shall he write him this lawe repeated in a booke by the Priests of the Leuites And it shall be with him and he shall reade therein all dayes of his life that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God and to keepe all the woordes of this lawe and these ordinances for to doe them That his heart be not lifted vp aboue his brethren and that hee turne not from the commandement to the right hand or to the left but that he may prolong his dayes in his
kingdome hee and his sonnes in the middes of Israel Deut. 17. I frame my argument thus The king is commaunded to reade the lawe of God that hee may learne to feare God and decline pride therefore the reading of the law of God doth edifie In king Iosias time the booke of the lawe was found by Hilkiah the Priest This booke was read in the Lordes house The king was present so were all the men of Iuda the inhabitants of Ierusalem and the Priests and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest c. 2. Chron. 34. I make my argument thus The booke of the lawe was not read in vaine in the Lordes house c. 2. Kings 22. therefore it did edifie All the wordes of my mouth are righteous there is no lewdnesse nor frowardnesse in them They are all plaine to him that will vnderstande and streight to them that would find knowledge Prou. 8. Therefore the holy Scriptures both read and preached doe edifie His salubriter praua corriguntur paruanutriuntur magna oblectantur ingenia Aug. Epist 3. The holy Scripture hath in it milke for babes and stronger meate for them that are of age Heb. 5. The holy Scripture is a shallowe water where in the lambe may wade and a great sea wherein the Elephant may swimme The Lawe and the Prophets were read in the Churches of Antiochia and Ierusalem Act. 13. and in Nazareth Luke 4. If the reading of the holy Scriptures doe not edifie why were the law and Prophets read in the Temple and Synagogues The Apostle writeth thus to the pastours and people of Colosse Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously c. Coloss 3. Therefore Gods people are not to be barred from the reading of the holy Scripture If it doeth not edifie they were iustly barred by the Popish Cleargie Victorinus was an Oratour in Rome By reading the Scriptures he became a Christian Mirante Roma gaudente ecclesia that is Rome marueyled at Victorinus conuersion Gods Church was glad of it Aug. Confess lib. 8. cap. 2. Gods speach vnto vs I am sure doth edifie when the Scriptures are read God speaketh vnto vs. The holy Scriptures are Dei Epistola c. that is Gods Epistle vnto vs. By reading the Scriptures Gods people do more easily receiue Gods holy truth and espie Popish absurdities and Anabaptisticall fancies They which mislike the reading of the scriptures are Zwingfildians that is absurde heretikes What then is master Penry which writeth that the worde barely read and to no other purpose then to edifie by reading is not wholesome doctrine If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I am an enemie to the preaching of the word hee deserueth no answere My iudgement is If the reading of the holy scriptures doeth edifie that sounde preaching doeth edifie much more By sound preaching I vnderstand the giuing of the true sense of the scripture and applying it to the profite of the auditours Thus did Ezra Christ the Apostles preach This course I am sure doeth highly please God and bringeth many sheepe into the Lordes folde The Lorde increase the number of such teachers that Gods religion may flourish as Aarons rod did and that Popish and Anabaptisticall errours may be deuoured as the roddes of the Egyptian sorcerers were Ille huic doctrinae inimicus est animus qui vel errando eam nescit esse saluberrimam vel odit aegrotando medicinam Agust Epist. 3. CHAP. 5. A DEFENCE OF THAT which hath bene written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie and the communicating with them By IOHN PENRY THere be two things M. D. SOME wherein you by oppugning that trueth which out of the worde of God I had set downe concerning the two former questions haue bene wanting both vnto your selfe and to the cause the defence whereof you vndertooke The former want of the two appeareth by your spare dealing in a matter of such great weight wherin you haue dealt with so illiberal a hand that what hath bene written by you might seeme to proceede rather from any then from a man whose gifts and learning seemed to promise the affording of greater and more weightie matters then any set downe in that treatise R. Some Your beginning is full of courage I do not wonder at it He that runneth alone is alwayes formost You accuse me to withstande Gods trueth A sore charge If true I must reuerse my iudgement if vntrue true you haue dealt iniuriously with me When Ioas was aduanced to the Imperiall Crowne of Iuda Athalia cried Treason Treason 2. Chron. 23. A hard speach against king Ioas Iehoiada c. But Athalia her selfe was the Traitour You shall apply this I haue dealt you say verie sparingly in a matter of great importance If I haue so your aduantage is greater If the seede sowen in my booke were like yours I might be iustly thought to bee verie prodigall My treatise I perceiue is not for your tooth it is simple in your eye Aquila non capit muscas It hath pleased many I thanke God of excellent learning and wisedome to like of it That is my comfort Instar mille Platonis calculus I make very meane account as yet of your iudgement You are not read you are to seeke in the principles of diuinitie you haue broched grosse errours you know not your ignorance For that knowledge which Almightie God hath giuen me I thanke his Maiestie verie humbly It is more I confesse then I am worthie of God giue me grace to vse it to his glorie I. Penry The number of my reasons were many you onely haue touched two of them the rest are not dealt with And therefore the cause as yet remaineth whole For be it you had answered these two as you haue not yet had you not satisfied the doubtfull conscience of those that know not in these points which way to turne them as long as any one of my reasons remayned vnanswered R. Some Your reasons I confesse haue number but they want weight I haue confuted three of them The first of the three is accompted by you a pillar of marble But I haue not you say dealt with the rest Content yourselfe I haue made no fault I answered such and so many as were deliuered to me by some of your faction When I had finished my treatise your booke was brought me before I knew not that you were the father of them You denie that I haue answered any of your reasons It is easie to say so and you might worst haue sayde it A partie is vnfit to be a Iudge Your reasons are all of one stampe therefore the ouerthrow of the principall is the ouerthrow of all Your followers vvhich knowe not which way to turne them may thanke both you and themselues you for sowing themselues for reaping such giddie fancies It is an easie thing to leade and fall into an Anabaptisticall maze They will not bee satisfied you say before
for money many of the Iewish priestes were ignorant yet Ioseph and the virgine Mary were not polluted Calu. Luc. 2.41 I. Penry The blindnesse of the ignorant Leuites cannot make such a nullitie of their priesthood as they should be no priests vnto the people And therefore great reason why the parents of our Sauiour and the rest of the godly should not leaue the seruice of God for the pollution of the priestes R. Some The ignorant Leuites are deepe in your bookes They find grace with you You allowe them to be priestes vnto the Israelites whom Almightie God neuer approoued yea whom his maiestie hath disclaymed Hos 6. You must of force be as beneficiall to ignorant ministers vnlesse you doe simply condemne the externall calling of the ministers in the Church of England to be none at all If you doe so then in your iudgement wee haue no ministerie no sacraments no visible Church in England R. Some The godly which receiue the holy Supper of an vnpreaching Minister are not partakers of the Ministers vnworthinesse but of the holy Sacrament which is a pillar of our faith therefore the vnworthinesse of the minister doth not defile the Communicant Alterius siue Pastoris siue priuati indignitate non laediturpia conscientia c. Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. sect 19. that is A godly conscience is not hurt by the vnworthinesse of another either Pastour or priuate man neither are the mysteries lesse pure and healthfull to a holy man because they are then handled of such as be impure Ille qui accipit si homo bonus ab homine malo si fidelis à perfido si pius ab impio perniciosum erit danti non accipienti Illud quippe sanctum malè vtentem iudicat bene accipientem sanctificat Aug. contra Cres gram lib. 2. cap. 28. that is He which receiueth if a good of an euill man if a faithfull of a faithlesse man if a godly of a wicked man it wil bee hurtful to the giuer not to the receiuer for that holy thing he meaneth the Sacrament doth iudge him which vseth it ill but doth sanctifie him which receiueth it well M. Penry answeres nothing to this R. Some Circumcision was one of the Lords Sacraments in the Iewish Church The Iewes which were circumcised of impure priests and apostates receiued no hurt therefore no pollution Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 15. sect 16. The Sacraments neither are nor can be the vvorse for the ignorance or vnworthinesse or better for the learning or worthinesse of any man whatsoeuer Whosoeuer thinketh otherwise is a Donatist I. Penry The Sacraments are not the worse for the ignorance of the minister All this I graunt c. R. Some The first part of my reason is passed ouer with silence A breefe kind of answering In this M. Penry resembles yong children Where they cannot read they skippe ouer R. Some Touching this point of the Sacramēt I rest wholy in Augustines iudgemēt his words are these Ego dico melius per bonū ministrum quà m per malum dispensari Sacramenta diuina verùm hoc propter ipsum ministrum melius est vt eis rebus quas ministrat vita moribus cōgruat non propter illum qui etiam si incurrerit in ministrum malum dispensantem veritatem securitatem accipit à domino suo monente ac dicente Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt nolite facere dicunt enim non faciunt Addo etiam ad hoc esse melius vt ille cui ministratur ministri boni probitatem ac sanctitatem diligendo facilius imitetur Sed non ideo veriora sanctiora sunt quae ministrantur quia per meliorem ministrantur Illa namque per seipsa vera sancta sunt propter Deum verum sanctum cuius sunt ideo fieri potest vt accedens adsoctetatem populi Dei alium inueniat à quo facilè baptizetut alium eligat quem salubriter imitetur Certus est enim sanctume esse sacramentum Christi etiamsiper minus sanctum vel non sanctum hominem ministratum est se autem eiusdem ipsius sacramenti sanctitate puniri si indignè acciperit si malè vsus fuerit si ei non conuenienter congruè vixerit August contra Cres Gram. lib 4. Chap. 20. The summe of Augustines vvords is that the Sacrament is administred better by a good then by a bad minister yet that the Sacraments of themselues are true and holy c. by vvhat minister soeuer they be deliuered c. If any shall aske me whether it be lavvfull to omitte the partaking of the holy Sacrament in such Churches ouer which ignorant ministers are set and to present our selues and our infantes to the holy Sacrament in other Churches my answere is that I referre them to the Magistrate and gouernours of our Churches c. Nothing is answered to this An obiection of a fantasticall body By whom a thing ought not to be deliuered by another it ought not to be receiued but ignorant ministers ought nor to deliuer the Sacraments therefore c. R. Some The maior is false My reason is An euill man ought not to deliuer the word of God but we ought to receiue it An euill man ought not to giue almes but a poore man may receiue it An absurde minister ought not to deliuer the Sacrament but they are not polluted which receiue it I. Penry The obiection concerning the giuer and the receiuer was neuer mine I could turne it against you but I must be briefe R. Some It was not yours I confesse I doe not charge you with it It was an other mans You must giue some other men leaue to make fond arguments as well as your selfe You could turne it you say against me You are one of the strangest turners that euer I knewe You haue turned out such a deale of grosse diuinity vpon me and other that we are wearie and you may be ashamed of it CHAP. 10. I. Penry THE GODLY DOE SINNE which doe communicate with vnpreaching ministers Reasons Because they communicate with those who are no Ministers R. Some YOu haue bene liberall in charging me to begge the question It is your fault in this place You affirme that vnpreaching Ministers are no Ministers I denie it It is very strange to mee that you will accompt ignorant Leuitical priests lawfull priestes and denie vnpreaching Ministers to haue any calling If you were indifferent you would serue them both alike I. Penry They cannot be assured to receiue a sacrament at their handes R. Some Your selfe denies not that they are the Sacramēts which are deliuered by vnpreaching Ministers If they be the Sacraments which are administred I am sure first that they are the Sacraments which are receiued secondly that they haue a calling which do administer them Besides the ignorance of the Minister cannot pollute the godly receiuer I. Penry They do not examine themselues aright so are not worthy receiuers 1.
haue beene greatly disquieted and the good course of religion hath beene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates If any shall aske mee what the true causes are why so many vnfitte men are the Churches Ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and do grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will bee healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key 9. THE GODLY ARE not polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the handes of an vnpreaching Minister THE Sacramentes are Gods ordinance the Ministers ignorance cannot peruert the nature of Gods ordinance A Sacrament can neuer be without promise of saluation therefore the worthy partaker of the Sacrament receiues a blessing if a blessing then no pollution That he receiues a blessing the Apostle teacheth vs We are buried with Christ saith S. Paul by baptisme into his death c. Rom. 6. verse 4. The cuppe of blessing which we blesse is it not the communion of the blood of Christ The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of Christ 1. Cor. 11. verse 16. The parents of Christ went to Ierusalem euery yere at the feast of the Passeouer Luk. 2. vers 41. their going to Ierusalem was to testifie their religion to be partakers of the sacrifices There were at that time in Salomons Temple manifold corruptions the high Priesthood was solde for money many of the Iewish Priests were ignorant yet Ioseph the virgine Mary were not polluted Calu. Luc. 2. vers 41. The godly which receiue the holy Supper of an vnpreaching Minister are not partakers of the Ministers vnworthinesse but of the holy Sacrament which is a pillar of our faith therefore the vnworthinesse of the Minister doth not defile the Communicāt Alterius siue Pastoris siue priuati indignitate non laeditur pia conscientia c. Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 19. that is A godly conscience is not hurt by the vnworthinesse of an other either Pastor or priuate man neither are the mysteries lesse pure and healthfull to a holy man because they are then handled of such as be impure Ille qui accipit si homo bonus ab homine malo si fidelis à perfido si pius ab impio perniciosumerit danti non accipienti Illud quippe sanctum malè vtentem iudicat bene accipientem sanctificat Aug. contra Cresc gram lib. 2. cap. 28. that is he which receiueth if a good of an euill man if a faithfull of a faithlesse man if a godly of a wicked man it will be hurtful to the giuer not to the receiuer for that holy thing he meaneth the sacrament doth iudge him which vseth it ill but doeth sanctifie him which receiueth it well Circumcision was one of the Lords Sacraments in the Iewish Church The Iewes which were circumcised of impure priestes and Apostates receiued no hurt therefore no pollution Calu. Institut lib. 4. cap. 15. Sect. 16. The Sacraments neither are nor can be the worse for the ignorance or vnworthinesse or better for the learning or worthinesse of any man whatsoeuer Whosoeuer thinketh otherwise is a Donatist Touching this point of the Sacrament I rest wholy in Augustines iudgement his wordes are these Ego dieo meliùs per bonū ministrū quà m per malū dispensari sacramenta diuina verùm hoc propter ipsum ministrum melius est vteis rebus quas ministrat vita moribus congruat non propter illum qui etiam si incurrerit in ministrum malum dispensantem veritatem securitatem accipit à domino suo monente ac dicente Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt nolite facere dicunt enim non faciunt Addo etiam ad hoc esse melius vt ille cui ministratur ministri boni probitatem ac sanctitatem diligendo faciliùs imitetur Sed non ideo veriora sanctiora sunt quae ministrantur quia per meliorem ministrantur Illa namque per seipsa vera sancta sunt propter Deum verum sanctum cuius sunt ideo fieri potest vt accedens ad societatem populi Dei alium inueniat à quo facilè baptizetur alium eligat quem salubriter imitetur Certus est enim sanctum esse Sacramentum Christi etiamsi per minùs sanctum vel non sanctum hominem ministratum est se autem eiusdem ipsius sacramenti sanctitate puniri si indignè acceperit si malè vsus fuerit si ei non conuenienter congruè vixerit August contra Cresc Gram. lib. 4. cap. 20. The summe of Augustines wordes is that the Sacrament is administred better by a good then by a bad Minister yet that the Sacraments of themselues are true and holy c. by what minister so euer they be deliuered c. If any shall aske mee whether it be lawful to omit the partaking of the holy Sacrament in such Churches ouer which ignorant ministers are set and to present our selues and our infants to the holy Sacrament in other Churches my answere is that I referre them to the Magistrate and Gouernours of our Churches c. Obiection By whome a thing ought not to be deliuered by another it ought not to bee receiued but ignorant ministers ought not to deliuer the Sacraments therefore c. Answere The Maior is false My reason is An euill man ought not to deliuer the worde of God but wee ought to receiue it An euill man ought not to giue almes but a poore man may receiue it An absurde minister ought not to deliuer the Sacrament but they are not polluted which receiue it Obiection They of whose ministerie there is a Nullitie before God although they haue an outwarde calling ought not to bee accompted ministers therefore not to bee communicated with I. Penry pag. 43 44. Answere I denie your Antecedent My reasons are First there was a Nullitie before God of Caiphas Priesthoode for hee entred by money and the Priesthood was deuided betweene him and Annas against the Lords order Calu. Luc. 3. yet Caiphas is called the high Priest by the Euangelists Mat. 26. Ioh. 18. Secondly there was a Nullitie before God of the ministerie of some in Philippos which preached Christ of contention and to adde more affliction to Pauls bandes Philip. Chap. 1. verse 15 16. But these are accompted ministers by the Apostle vers 15 18. If any shall deny that there was a Nullitie before God of their ministerie I prooue it thus They had not an inward calling M. Penry saith that an inward calling is contained in the
fufficiēcie of gifts and willingnesse to practise them pag. 45. If M. Penry meane the practise of giftes to Gods glory I say Amen vnto it I confesse that they of Philippos had giftes in some measure but they had not willingnesse to practise those giftes to Gods glorie which willingnesse c. is one of the necessarie branches of an inward calling That they of Philippos had not this willingnesse c. it is manifest for they sought themselues and practised their gifts wholy to increase the Apostles affliction Lastly if your Antecedent be true what say you to this proposition They of whose Magistracie there is a Nullitie before God though they haue an outward calling ought not to bee accompted Magistrates Doe you not thinke this proposition to bee very dangerous I could presse and followe this very farre but I abstaine of purpose Obiection The Sacrament may not bee receiued at his handes which wanteth outward calling Therefore not at his handes who is destitute of the inward graces I. Penry pag. 46. Answere Your Antecedent is true and maketh against the Anabaptists I denie your Argument My reason is Omnia Sacramenta cùm obsint indignè tractantibus prosunt tamen per eos dignè sumentibus August contra epist Parmen lib. 2. cap. 10. That is All Sacraments though they hurt such as doe handle them vnworthily yet they profit such as doe worthily receiue them at their handes Obiection We haue no warrant to receiue an extraordinarie Sacrament But that which is administred by ignorant ministers is an extraordinary Sacrament if it be any Therefore we haue no warrant to receiue it I. Penry pag. 49. Answere I denie your Minor and doe adde this First that it is a Sacrament by your owne confession pag. 50 51. which is administred by ignorant ministers Secondly that it is no extraordinarie Sacrament which is deliuered by them vnlesse you will call Baptisme and the holy Supper extraordinarie Sacraments If any will conclude of these my answeres that I mislike M. Penryes desire of a learned Ministerie in Wales he takes vp that which I neuer let fall for I desire with all my heart and the Lorde for his Christs sake grant it that not onely Wales may be furnished with worthy gouernours and pastours but all other partes of her Maiestics Dominions that Gods graces may be more and more multiplied vpon vs and our posteritie and his holy hand watch ouer vs. 10 THE CHVRCH OF England is the visible Church of Christ THE Church of Galatia which erred in a fundamentall point of doctrine is called the Church of God Gal. 1. therefore the Church of England which erreth not in any fundamentall point of doctrine is the Church of Christ That the Church of Galatia erred in a fundamentall point of doctrine it is manifest for they ioyned Circumcision and Christ together If any do thinke that the Church of England doe hold an errour in any fundamentall point of doctrine let him set downe the particular The Church of England hath Christ for her head and foundation for shee receiueth and reuerenceth the Canonicall Scriptures and confesseth Christes righteousnesse to be hers and that saluation is compassed by Christ alone with whose grace nothing may bee matched Christus aut totus aut nullus Gratia Dei aut tota suscipitur aut tota reijcitur Gratia nullo modo esset gratia nisi esset omni modo gratuita That the preaching of the holy worde and administration of the Sacraments are the essentiall markes of the Church of Christ I haue proued in my Treatise of the Church to which booke I referre you but these essentiall markes of the Church are in the Church of England therefore c. Obiection The discipline vsed in the Primitiue Church is not in the Church of Englād therefore the church of England is not the Church of Christ Answere I denie the Argument My reasons are First S. Luke setting out the extraordinary blessing which God gaue to Peters sermō in Ierusalem hath these wordes Then they that gladly receiued his worde were baptized and the same day there were added to the Church about three thousand soules And they continued in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayers Acts. 2.41 42. No man endued with Gods spirit wil denie that this assembly which was baptised continued in the Apostles doctrine c. was the Church of God and yet no Deacons were at that time chosē or Consistories of Seniors erected Secondly they which doe vrge the discipline most earnestly doe confesse that the discipline is not an essentiall part of the Church Their reason is The discipline resembles the wall of a Citie and hedge or ditch of a Vineyarde It is a Citie though the wall bee wanting it is a Vineyarde though hedge or ditch be wanting Lastly I woulde gladly knowe whether it bee either possible or safe to plant that discipline in this lande before that Gods holy Trueth be soundly both taught and receiued and that there be fit Churchmen and people to execute the discipline Obiection The Ministers in England are not chosen by the Parishes ouer which they are set therefore they are no ministers and consequently there is no administration of the worde or Sacraments no worshippe of God nor visible Church in England as some Anabaptists haue giuen out of late Answere I denie the Argument My reason is if this Argument of theirs were good these absurdities would follow First that Gods Church is necessarily tyed in all places and times to one forme in the externall calling of the ministers Secondly that the excellent assemblie in the Primitiue Church Actes 2. verse 41 42. was not the Church of God for at that time the Ministers were not elected by the Presbitery people Thirdly that the worthiest Preachers in this land are no Ministers Lastly that very many parts of England are like to haue no teachers because they are vtterly vnfit to make choise of their Pastours If it be saide that some Bishops in ordeyning and some Patrones in presenting ignorant Ministers haue erred as grosly as any Parish can my answere is that I neither dare nor will defend such either Bishops or Patrons I doe rather exhort them to vnfeyned repentance for this great sinne of theirs hath and doth crie very loude for some notable vengeance Cipri de vnitate Ecclesiae Haereses Diabolus inuenit schismata quibus subuerteret fidem veritatem corrumperet scinderet vnitatem Quos detinere non potest in viae veteris caecitate cirrumscribit decipit noui itineris errore Rapit de ipsa Ecclesia homines dum sibi appropinquasse iam lumini atque euasisse faeculi noctem videntur alias nescientibus tenebras rursus infundit c. A DEFENCE OF SVCH POINTS IN R. SOMES LAST TREATISE AS M. PENRY hath dealt against And a refutation of many Anabaptistical blasphemous and Popish absurdities touching Magistracie Ministerie Church Scripture and Baptisme c. conteined
edifying word vnlesse it be vttered according to the ordinance both in regard of the persons that vtter the same and the ende wherefore it is vttered Chap. 8. pag. 99. This is a Popish errour for the Scripture is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is of credite in it selfe Reade my answere Chap. 8. pag. 102. M. Penry saith that there is no Church at all in Popery Chap. 23. pag. 175. 176. This is a grosse errour condemned of very famous men and all reformed Churches If there be no church at all in Popery these absurdities will followe first the Pope is not Antichrist Secondly the infants of Papists may not be baptized in any reformed Church though some of the Religion doe present them to Baptisme and publiquely vndertake the good education of them Reade that which I haue written Chap. 17. pag. 147. 148. 149. and Chap. 23. pag. 176. M. Penry saith that if there be a Church in Popery our Magistrates c. are Schismatiques inasmuch as they haue separated themselues from the Church of Rome Chap. 17. pag. 151. This is a grosse and Popish collection and cannot stand with the duetie of a subiect Reade my answere Chap. 17. pag. 151. 152. M. Penry writeth that men in the Popish Church are not ingraffed by Baptisme into a true Christ His wordes are these Where there is no true Christ whereunto men can be ingraffed by Baptisme there true Baptisme as touching the substance cannot be gotten c. But in Popery there is no true Christ whereinto men may be ingraffed c. Chap. 23. pag. 173. This is a grosse errour condemned of all famous writers and Churches Reade that which I haue written Chap. 23. pag. 173. 174. and cha 20. pag. 156. 157. Maister Penry writeth that if baptisme administred by vnpreaching ministers were denied to be a Sacrament he would wish none to offer themselues to that holy Sacrament for sixe causes First we are already receyued into the bosome of the Church and acknowledged to haue the seale of the couenant in as much as we were once offered and receyued into the number of the godly by the outwarde elemēt though corruptly To what end then should baptisme serue vs againe In his exhort to the gouernonrs c. of Wales pag. 31. If this be true which M. Penry saith the outwarde and bare element deliuered by him which in M. Penryes iudgement is no minister is the seale of Gods couenant Which is a most absurd heresie Secondly the absolute necessitie of baptisme to saluation by this meanes might seeme to be mainteined False They which require men vnbaptized to offer themselues to Baptisme are perswaded that the contempt of the Sacrament is damnable they doe not thinke that all which die without Baptisme if contempt bee absent are damned Besides Baptisme is necessarie in respect of our obedience but what obedience is performed when Baptisme is refused Thirdly least wee should seeme to agree with the heretical Catabaptists If no Baptisme was deliuered by vnpreaching ministers M. Penry is an hereticall Catabaptist if hee dehort any such from holy Baptisme as were baptized by vnpreaching ministers Fourthly other Churches haue not publikely decided the cause They needed not They made no question of it for with one voyce they condemne your Anabaptisticall fancies Fiftly that the practise should not enforce them to bee rebaptized which haue bene alreadie baptized by such as had commission from the Lord to deale in those mysteries If they be already baptized no reason they should desire a second Baptisme for Baptisme may not be iterated I haue prooued this point in my Treatise of the Sacraments and in this booke Chap. 19. pag. 156. Lastly they who being nowe in the age of discretion haue beene baptized by Idoll ministers are either called or not called to saluation If called why should they be rebaptized seeing alreadie they haue bene made partakers of the outward element and accompted in the number of Christians If not called neither should they be baptized vntill they declared by their workes that they were Gods children If they receiued the Sacrament before they neede not If they receiued no Sacrament they cannot absteine from Baptisme without intollerable both sinne and vengeance None that are effectually called either haue or will refuse to offer themselues to Baptisme which Baptisme before they had not Cornelius example doeth teach vs that Acts. 10. Yea I dare be bold to say that her Maiesties subiects which are vnbaptized and do not offer themselues to Baptisme are not as yet effectually called whatsoeuer either they or you pretende The reason is None are effectually called which are not within the compasse of Gods couenant The words of Gods couenant are these I will be thy God and the God of thy seede Gen. 17. Are they within the compasse of this couenant which either wittingly omit or wilfully refuse Baptisme which is the seale of Gods couenant M. Penry sayth that the preaching of the worde is necessarily required in the administration of Baptisme chap. 7 pag. 82. If this were true al such as were Baptized without a Sermon receiued no Sacrament I referre you to my answere Chap. 7. pag. 84. M. Penry sayeth that Baptisme is not out of the Church Chap. 23. pag. 176. This is a grosse errour Reade that which I haue written Chap. 21. pag. 158. c. M. Penryes iudgement is that Queene Elizabeth and many thousandes in England are vnbaptized That his iudgement is such I proue it by his owne wordes He writeth thus c. In Popery there is no true Christ whereunto men may be ingraffed c. And a litle before What Baptisme is that which is not an ingraffing into the true Christ Chap. 23. pag. 173. A litle after he hath these words There is no Church at all in Popery chap. 23. pag. 175. 176. And in an other place c. that Baptisme is not out of the Church If M. Penry shall answere that it was Baptisme in the Popish church yesterday but it is not so either to day or to morowe because the Christ professed now in Popery is not a true but a deuided Christ I must needes tell him that Christ in the Popish profession was diuided as well when her Maiestie c. was Baptized as he is deuided in the Popish profession in this day Besides M. Penry writeth that the Popish church was neuer the Temple of God since Antichrist planted his pestilent chaire therein Chap. 22. pag. 165. To conclude seeing there is in M. Penryes iudgement no Church no Baptisme no Ministery in the Popish church c. I may be bold to affirme that in M. Penryes iudgement her Maiestie and many thousandes more are vnbaptized M. Penry saith that the holy Supper is an extraordinary Sacrament which is deliuered priuately by a Minister Chap. 14. pag. 139. This error is condemned by M. Caluine whose resolution is that it is lawfull to administer the holy Supper priuately if certaine cautions be
obserued I rest in his iudgement I referre you to chap. 15. page 141. 142. M. Penry saith that they which cōmunicate with vnpreaching ministers approue the sinne of the vnpreaching ministerie Chap. 10. pag. 119. This is an Anabaptisticall fancie for S. Paul as M. Penry writeth communicated after his conuersion with those priestes which were as vnlearned as euer any chap. 11. pag. 128. I referre you besides to my answere chap. 10. pag. 119. M. Penry is bolde to control Almightie God for barring the vncircumcised Israelites from eating the Paschall lambe His words are these why should the godly of the family be excluded from the action the cause why they were vncircumcised not being in them Chap. 8. pag. 89. This is intollerable saucinesse It becommeth not dust and ashes to dispute with and to coūtermand the Maiestie of God Reade my answere chap. 8. pag. 91. 92. M. Penries iudgement is that the touching of a dead man which was a legall vncleannes was sinne Chap. 9. page 110. For proofe of this errour he quoteth two textes of Scripture most absurdly I referre you to my answere chap. 9. page 111. 112. 113. M. Penry saith that Caiphas high priesthood was the Lords ordinance Chap. 10. page 122. This is an errour for the Lords ordināce was that only one should be the high priest and it is manifest in the text that Annas Caiphas were high priests together luke 3. M. Penry sayth that he is assured that popish priests are no ministers that is that they haue no calling at all Chap. 22. page 160. 162. 163. If this were true first a great number are vnbaptized Secondly Caluine Beza and other famous men and churches which I do not thinke do erre grosly Lastly only M. Penries iudgement is sound which I am sure is a most absurd iudgement Reade my answere cap. 22. pag. 161. 162. 163. and cap. 18. pag. 154. M. Penry affirmeth readers to be no ministers and for any thing that is reuealed in the worde that they can deliuer no Sacrament and yet that which hath bene done by them may be a Sacrament and what contrarietie saith hee is there in these assertions In his exhort to the Gouernours c. of Wales pag. 32. Then yesterday a Sacrament and to morowe none Goodly diuinitie Such Saint such shrine M. Penry sayth that he hath no ministerie which sinneth in executing the workes of the ministerie as administring Sacraments c. His wordes are these the calling of an vnpreaching minister is not the calling of the ministerie because he sinneth in intermedling with the workes thereof Chap. 25. If this were true the contentious ministers of Philippi were no ministers for they sinned in executing the workes of the ministerie That appeareth in these wordes of the Apostle Some preach Christ through enuie and strife Phi. 1.15 Besides M. Penries ignorant Leuites were no priests in the old Testament for they sinned in executing the priesthood That the outward approbation of the Church doth not make a minister Chap. 12. page 131. If he meane that it doth not furnish a minister with knowledge I graunt it If he meane that it doth not make him a minister to vs then were the ignorant Leuiticall priests no priests in the Iewish Church Which ignorant Leuiticall priests in M. Penries iudgement were lawfull priests though not good priests Chap. 11. page 125. reade my answere chap. 12. page 132. M. Penry sayth that vnfitnesse to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuiticall priests office Chap. 11. page 125. M. Penry sayth in an other place that no ministerie is seperated from a gift Againe whosoeuer preserueth not knowledge in his lippes is no minister in his addition page 57. 58. Againe to make a minister there be two things required First a being or life which the Lord onely can giue Secondly a birth which the Church as an instrument of the ordinance of God is to bestowe vpon him by his outward calling These two things are so essentially to be required in a minister that whosoeuer wanteth either of them he cannot possibly be a minister Againe be it that a man haue the outward calling of the Church yet in deede he is no minister vnlesse the Lorde hath giuen him the life of a minister by committing the word of reconciliation vnto his hands in his addi page 45. 46. M. Penry erreth greatly eyther in his first or last propositions If he can reconcile them hee can worke miracles The toughest glewe that is can not make them cleaue together M. Penry offers disputation Chap. 16. page 143. Inscitia audax none so bold as blind bayard Reade my answere Chap. 16. page 143. 144. M. Penry hath these wordes I dare arrest and attaint of high treason against the maiestie of the Highest all both men and Angels who eyther defend the communicating with vnpreaching ministers lawfull or communicate with them in his addition page 65. Sesquipedalia verba euery worde as bigge as a house Great smoke but no fire thankes be to God Your arrest is like Goliaths curse it is not so fearefull as paper shot Thus M. Penry hath troubled HEAVEN CHVRCH COMMON-VVEALTH and HIMSELFE HEAVEN for he being dust and ashes hath beene too bolde and sawcie with God himselfe CHVRCH for he hath offered vnto it for treasure not coales which had bene very base but poison which is very dangerous COMMON-VVEALTH for he hath vndermined the chaire of the Magistrat I hope such conies will be looked vnto HIMSELFE for he hath contriued and broched many proud blasphemous Anabaptisticall fancies I perceiue it is true which that famous man M. Caluine hath written viz. that an Anabaptisticall head is immensum deliriorum mare a vast Sea of dotages Calu. contra Anabapt CHAP. 1. A DEFENCE OF SVCH points in R. SOMES last treatise as M. Penry hath dealt against R. Some Before that I answere M. Penryes booke I am to desire the godly Reader to consider weightily of this litle which followeth My two first propositions which M. Penry dealeth against are 1. They which were baptized in the Popish Church by Popish Priestes receiued true Baptisme touching the substance of Baptisme 2. They are the Sacraments of Baptisme and the holy Supper which are deliuered in the Church of England by vnpreaching ministers I. Penry YOu handle two needelesse pointes First that They which were baptized by Popish Priests c. Secondly that They are the Sacraments of Baptisme c. In these two pointes M. Some you haue proued nothing that my writings haue denied R. Some I doe see as yet no difference betwene vs. If M. Penry denieth them not to be Sacraments which are administred by Popish priests vnpreaching Ministers hee can not deny Popish priests and vnpreaching Ministers to haue a calling c. For it is a rule in Diuinitie Sacramentum nullum sine ministro that is No Sacrament without a minister My thirde proposition which M. Penry censureth is 3 The godly are not polluted
you see by the way which may not be forgotten that an argument may bee drawen from the Leuiticall priesthood to the ministerie of the newe testament which priesthood and ministerie are not twinnes are vnmatcheable and cannot stand together I confesse my selfe greatly bound vnto you you deale very liberally with me for you reach me arguments as weapons to smite your selfe withall M. Penry a little after in steede of answering my reason asketh a question after his vsuall manner Did saith he none of the vncircumcised Leuites teach Iacob the lawe or offer incense c. I answere First that no such thing appeareth in the text Secondly that it is against the practise of the Leuiticall priefts in the olde Testament Did euer any student deale so childishly as M. Penry doth is not he a very fit man to censure famous men Churches Caluine Martyr Beza Augustine c. are no body with him I did neuer see him that I knowe of but ex vnguibus leonem I see by his answeres what a deepe clarke he is I. Penry Thus many things you see might be obiected against your reasons and I take the obiections to be of some waight It had bene well you had considered of them before you had published your booke And the Baptisme by vnpreaching ministers must haue better proofes then any you haue brought as yet or els I feare me our posterities will not be satisfied therewith R. Some Your wayghtie obiections are inuincible in your eye Suum cuique pulchrum But they haue neither Suczum nor Sanguinem they haue no pith in them they are lighter then any feather and bewray your ignorance You wish I had considered before hand of your obiections Satis pro imperio You are by your leaue a litle too lordly had I nothing to thinke of but of your absurde fancies you imagine very basely of me My arguments for baptisme by vnpreaching ministers are such as you are vnable to stirre for proofe of this I referre the reader to your vnscholerlike answeres Your feare that the posteritie will not rest in my reasons is a vaine feare c. R. Some The vnpreaching ministers doe adde the worde vnto the Element in the administration of Baptisme therefore it is the Sacrament of Baptisme which is deliuered by them Accedit verbum ad Elementum fit Sacramentum August Tract 80. in Iohan. that is The worde is added to the Element and it becomes a Sacrament By worde in Baptisme is vnderstanded the worde of Institution which is to baptize in the name of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost c. Of this iudgement are Beza confess Cap. 4. Art 47. and Musculus de sig Sacram. Art 4. I. Penry Your next reason page 23. is slender Readers pronounce the wordes of Institution with the deliuerie of the Element therefore say you they deliuer a Sacrament You haue once already alledged this to prooue popish baptisme page 20. I haue answered it page 29. 30. 31. And the place of Matth. 28.19 brought in by you page 23. prooueth your consequent to bee false For it sheweth that hee who is to baptize must bee also able to teache which abilitie is wanting in our Readers Goe sayth our Sauiour and teache all nations baptizing c. Therefore if hee that deliuereth the Element be not able to teache we cannot be assured that it is a Sacrament Because the commaundement is not generally to all that coulde pronounce the wordes of Institution being thereunto permitted by the corruption of the time but particularly limitted vnto them that can teache vnlesse you will say that the Lorde biddeth them goe teache who cannot teache which were not once to bee conceiued of his Maiestie R. Some Whatsoeuer passeth from me is slender in your opinion All that you deliuer is ex tripode an oracle at the least You answered before wisely like your selfe So you doe in this place semper idem you are no changeling You deny my consequent and doe adde for your reason an obiection set downe by me a litle after My answere to that obiection is extant and very direct I rest in it I did neuer say or thinke that Almightie God did either command or allow any to be a priest in the old or a minister in the new Testament which had not gifts in some measure It pleaseth you to write in your treatise that vnfitnes to teach made not a nullitie of the Leuiticall priests office If you meane that it made not a nullitie before God you conceiue very basely of Almightie God for you make him to allowe ignorant men to be his priests in the olde Testament which absurde course would haue brought great dishonour to his Maiestie and great hurt to the Church of the Israelites I doe nowe but touch this grosse and blasphemous paradoxe of yours and with the dog of Egypt doe as it were sippe and away but I will examine it more surely hereafter that the reader may see clearely as in a Christall glasse what base ware you commend vnto vs for excellent diuinitie I. Penry The corruption in the Church of Englande that the deliuerie of the Element shoulde be seuered from the preaching of the worde is a breach of Gods ordinance you cannot deny Matth. 28.19 Actes 20.7 and therefore vngodly and intollerable Whether it make the action frustrate or no that is not the question R. Some You meane as I take it by the worde added to the Element the worde preached but you doe not say flatly here though you haue a little before that the want of a Sermon maketh the action frustrate that is the sacrament to be no sacrament I confesse that Paul preached at Troas in the administration of the holy Supper Act. 20.7 and that the Apostles did teach the Gentiles before they baptized them Mat. 28.19 But no learned man will conclude of this that a Sermon is simplie necessarie to the Essence of a Sacrament If you will know what I thinke of sound preaching before the administration of the holy sacramēt my answer is that I do greatly both like and commend it Yea I doe wish with all my heart that all the Churches in Englande had able teachers to performe that dutie This minde was I euer of since I knewe what Gods religion and good diuinitie meant Of this minde are all godly and learned men in the Church of England An obiection of the fantasticall sort Christ sayde to his Apostles Goe and teach all nations baptizing c. Matt. 28.19 Therefore if the worde preached bee not added to the Element it is no sacrament of Baptisme Answere The Argument is verie weake I confesse that Christ cōmanded his Apostles first to teach such as were of yeres and alients from his religion and then to baptize them If the Gentiles had not bene first taught they woulde not haue offered themselues nor the Apostles admitted them to the holy sacrament of Baptisme If any will conclude of this place in saint
reason from the outward calling of readers I referre to your next chapter where they are repeated thither nowe I am come where the contradictory of the question shal be set downe and proued briefely because the nullitie of the vnpreaching ministery may be in steade of a thousand reasons to proue the same R. Some My obiections are seuerall whatsoeuer you say Any one that hath but halfe an eye may easily see it by my seuerall answeres I haue set downe the obiections as they were deliuered to me The confutation of my answeres if it be any is foorth comming you say in an other place I haue sought for it but I cannot finde it It is shrunke I feare in the wetting R. Some If any shall gather of this I haue set downe that I vndertake the defence of ignorant ministers my answere is that my writings and Sermons are not Aiax shielde to couer them but the Lords sworde to cutte them I confesse freely that I am very farre from opening either the Church doore to ignorant ministers or the pulpit doore to vnskilfull preachers which vnskilfull preachers giue Gods religion a greater blowe then the ignorant ministers for in stead of diuiding the word of trueth aright they speake at all aduentures yet very boldely and as vnskilfull Apothecaries deliuer quid pro quo chaffe for wheate and strange fancies for Gods holy trueth By such absurde fellowes many Churches and excellent men in this land haue bene greatly disquieted and the good course of religiō hath bene greatly hindered The cause of this sore is intollerable pride and grosse ignorance in these bad companions and want of care in the Magistrates I. Penry I am as farre from accounting the vnskilfull preachers which speake hand ouer head they care not what against whome your complaint is very iust to be ministers as I am from acknowledging many of our absucde doctors to be apt to teach who can bring nothing into the Pulpit but that which other men haue written and that very often so fit to the purpose of edification as the reason from the corner to the staffe is soundly concluded In these three sortes of supposed ministers and there coulde be a fourth added vnto them confisteth the woe of our Church R. Some Is my complaint iust against vnskilful preachers Doe you M. Penry wipe them out of the rolle of ministers Will you shut the pulpit doore against them Take heede what you doe You bidde your selfe losse Your kingdome will then fall to the ground for vnskilfull preachers are your Bulwarks and Blockhouses to support your fancies The absurde Doctors you mention shall haue no defence of mee If they preach as you write for that duetie and loue I owe and beare to the Church and Vniuersities I woulde both they you were disgraded and they kept out of the Pulpit and your writings out of the Presse I hope some good will growe by your writings First that the Vniuersities will take better heed vpon vvhom they bestow their degrees Secondly that the Magistrates vvill looke better to the Printing houses By the fourth sort of supposed Ministers vvhich you vvrite of I knovve not vvhom you meane I could ghesse shrevvdly but I vvil not because I vvill not misconstrue you If they or any other be the murraine of our Church I vvoulde they vvere either reformed or remooued R. Some If any shall aske me what the true causes are why so many vnfit men are the Churches ministers I answere either great want of iudgement or great corruption in such which doe ordeine and preferre them The sinne of these men is very great for they dishonour Almightie God and doe grosly abuse the people of the land This disease will be healed when the Churches maintenance is not disposed of by them which haue the golden dropsie but is freely giuen to worthie and painefull students which will neither fish with the siluer hooke nor open the Church doore with a siluer key M. Penry sayeth nothing to this CHAP. 9. THE GODLY ARE NOT polluted which receiue the Sacrament at the hands of an vnpreaching Minister I. Penry BY pollution I doubt not you meane sinne R. Some I doe so R. Some The Sacraments are Gods ordinance the ministers ignorance can not peruert the nature of Gods ordinance I. Penry The Ministers ignorance say you page 28. cannot peruert Gods ordinance and againe page 29. the Sacraments are not the worse for the ignorance of the minister c. All this I graunt but bare readers are not ministers and the doubt is whether the action performed by them be the ordinance of God whether it bee a Sacrament These be the questions which you ought to haue proued and not haue taken them as principles though you doe this the third and fourth time R. Some Your writings are like the winde not long in one corner Before you denied it not to be a Sacrament which was deliuered by vnpreaching ministers here you doubt of it You erred either then or now Were he not a wise man that would followe your humour The rocke he should builde on should be nothing but sand his building should be as the wall in Ezechiel dawbed with vntempered morter If vnpreaching ministers haue administred a Sacrament in your iudgement I am sure you cannot deny them to haue a calling for you will not accompt it a Sacrament which is deliuered by priuate men But let vs see what you write in an other place of this argument I. Penry If vnpreaching ministers be no ministers and if I cannot be assured to receiue a Sacrament but onely at the hands of a minister then cannot I assure my selfe that an vnpreaching minister can deliuer a Sacrament vnto me and therefore it is vnlawfull for me or any Christian to goe vnto an vnpreaching minister for the Sacraments if vnlawfull then a sinne if a sinne then the godly are polluted which goe vnto them for the Sacraments R. Some If vnpreaching ministers were no ministers as you affirme and I denie then I would confesse that a Sacrament might as easily be had of them as water of a drie ditch But what if some did minister the Sacrament in the Apostles times which were not preachers very famous men are of that iudgement Caluine vpon these wordes of the Apostle Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1. Cor. 1.17 writeth thus There were fewe to whom the office of preaching was committed but the administration of Baptisme was committed to many Martyr writeth thus vpon the same place of the Apostle Munus tingendi c. that is the administration of Baptisme may bee committed to euery one in the Church but not the office of preaching Chrisostome vpon that place of S. Paul hath these vvordes Euangelizare perpaucorum est c. that is fewe are able to preach but euery one may baptize that hath a calling Of this iudgement are Ambrose Hemingius c. Augustine hath these wordes Perfectè baptizare minùs docti
summe of my answere is conteyned in the writings of that French Gentleman Philip of Mornay Tract de eccle cap. 10. The name of Schismatike is much fitter for proud Penry and his fantastical disciples then for godly Magistrates and people who are most sawcily dealt with by the Anabaptisticall crew Question Whether all our ancestours which liued died in the Popish Church are damned Answere Philip of Morney doeth answere thus As our aduersaries make a difference betweene the Church and the people snatching the name of the Church onely to the Prelates which should bee common to all Christians so wee likewise doe well put a difference betweene the people cleauing to the Church of Rome and the faction of Antichrist betweene them who liue vnder the Popedome and the vpholders and mainteiners of the Pope betweene the inchaunters and those that are inchaunted betweene the Pharisees whom Christ calleth a generation of vipers and the poore sicke woman whom he called the very daughter of Abraham We say that among the poore people which was so long time deceiued vnder the darkenesse of Antichrist there was a part of the body of the visible Church But that the Pope and his mainteiners are the botch of the plague in it which stifleth choketh it as much as it can c. And a little after c. We knowe that the most part of the people were ignorant of those pestilent doctrines which the Schoolemen left in writing that is to say of the principall blasphemies of the Papacie also that the more part did neuer beleeue that they could merite euerlasting life by their owne workes whatsoeuer men preached thereof Againe albeit that through custome and ignorance they went to Saints and Images and frequented Masses and Pilgrimages yet notwithstanding in their conflicts of death they alwayes principally claue to the crosse of Iesus Christ We haue an example of S. Barnard himselfe and we haue seene many more in our time Saint Barnard in certaine places sauoureth of the contagion of his time as it was hard hee should doe otherwise But see his refuge when hee was tempted of the deuill in his last dayes I confesse saith he that I am not worthie of it I knowe that I can not by mine owne workes obteine the kingdome of heauen But my Lord hath obteyned it by a double right by inheritance from the father and by the merite of his passion Nowe he is contented with the one and giueth me the other And when I attribute it to my selfe by the gift which he hath made vnto me thereof I cannot be confounded And in another place My merite is the mercie of the Lord. And I am not poore in merites because hee is rich in his mercies I haue greatly sinned but I will comfort my selfe in the stripes of my Lord. Euen so likewise we assure our selues in the mercy of God that a great number helde the foūdation in Iesus Christ whereof the Apostle speaketh albeit Antichrist shooke it as it were endeuoured to ouerturne it in them all that he might Phil. Mor. Tract de Eccle. cap. 9. Of this iudgement is that famous man Peter Martyr in his Commentarie vpon the Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 15. vers 18. I rest in their iudgement CHAP. 18. THAT POPISH PRIESTS haue a calling though a faultie one IF popish priests haue no calling at all Baptisme was deliuered in the Popish Church by priuate men which is a grosse absurditie 2 Many Popish Priests after detestation of their popish errours were allowed ministers in the reformed Churches without imposition of hands c. therefore in the iudgement of the best Churches they had before a calling though a faultie one Those execellent fathers and Martyrs Cranmer Rydley Hooper Latymer c. which were sometimes Popish priests were allowed Ministers of the Gospel without imposition of hands c. Caluine writing of Popish priests hath these wordes Si verò quis istiusmodi c. and a litle after Si obijcitur Pauli Canon ille quo traditur eligendum Episcopum irreprehensibilem esse oportere respondeo non hîc agi meo quidem iudicio de simplici vel absoluta electione sed de approbatione vel restitutione ad certum munus propter interuenientem corruptionem And a litle after Duo sunt in illo statu summa vitia Vnum quod non recta ratione instituti sunt ad munus Eeclesiasticum c. The summe of M. Caluines words is that such Popish priests as detested popery and were fit to bee employed in the ministerie might be allowed or rather restored to the Ecclesiasticall function first because they were not before rightly instituted Secondly ad corrigendum praecedentem defectum that is to correct the former defect c. Calu. Epist 373. By which wordes it is manifest that Popish priests euen in the popish Church had and haue in M. Caluines iudgement a calling though a faultie one The same M. Caluine in an other place hath these vvordes Cogimur fateri penes illos esse ordinarium ministerium that is We are compelled to confesse that papists haue an ordinarie ministery Calu. Ezech cap. 13. v. 9. If M. Penry will take exception against M. Caluines writings the iudgement of all Gods Churches let him confute them very soundly If he can doe that he shal be accōpted the rarest man aliue If he can not which I am very sure of he shall not be Magnus Apollo that is goe for a Patriarch as his ignorant followers do accompt him but he shal be dubbed as he is in deede an other Neuius that is a loude and clamorous companion If either M. Penry or any of his fantasticall crewe shall thinke much of my speech I doe not passe I confesse freely that sharpe wordes are not sufficient plaisters for such proude sores I hope the Magistrates will consider further of him and such as he is Duro nodo durus cuneus c. that is A wedge of yron is fittest for knottie vvood CHAP. 19.20 THEY WHICH ARE ONCE baptized must not be baptized againe THe couenant of grace and peace which is made and sealed vp in baptisme is perpetuall for Almightie God remaineth euer faithfull in his couenant therefore c. 2 If Baptisme should be iterated Gods fidelity which cannot be made voyde by our infidelitie should be called into question which were a haynous sinne 3 Circumcision was neuer iterated therefore Baptisme may not Baptisme is to vs as circumcision was to the Israelites 4 As the carnall generation is one so the spirituall generation is one Semel nascimur semel renascimur 5 It appeareth not in Gods booke that any which receiued baptismum fluminis were rebaptized baptizmo fluminis 6 Agrippinus the Bishop of Carthage was author of iterating baptisme c. Vinc. Lir. Cap. 9. CHAP. 20. THERE IS TRVE BAPtisme in the Popish Church SVch as were and are baptized in the popish Church were and are engraffed by baptisme into a true Christ therefore
are made by Idolaters I make no question And when did God giue Idolaters leaue to make ministers Seeing therefore that popish priests are no ministers I see no shewe of probabilitie whereupon my faith or the faith of any can be assured to receyue true baptisme at their hands vnlesse it can bee shewed by you M. Some that eyther there may bee fayth where there is no promise or that there is a promise to receiue a sacrament where there is no minister which no man of any christian modestie will affirme Hence also it followeth that neither the obstinate crew of recusants in this land who offer their children to bee profaned by trayterous and runnagate Iesuites nor any else within the body of the Romish Babylon can assure themselues that their children receyue the substance of baptisme R. Some If by ministers in your Maior proposition you meane lawfull and good ministers of God I agree with you If you meane otherwise I dissent If by idolaters in your Maior propositiō you vnderstand not Pagane but popish idolaters my answere is that such as were called elected and ordained by them had a calling though a faultie one Otherwise Luether Ridley Cranmer Hooper c. had no calling at all For this point I referre you to that I haue set downe before chap. 18. of this Treatise You aske this question viz. When did God giue idolaters leaue to make ministers I answere euen then when he gaue the Israelites leaue to make your ignorant Leuites priests and when hee gaue foolish electours of Magistrates leaue to chuse such Magistrates as your foele Candaules was that is Almightie God gaue no leaue at all And yet you are resolute that the ignorant Leuitical priests which might be wel begged for idiots were lawfull priestes though not good priestes and that such as are chosen Magistrates euen against the wooll haue both the life and birth of Magistrates It pleaseth you to say that because Popish priests are no ministers in your iudgement that you cannot be assured to receiue baptisme at their hands Then belike if you were perswaded as all learned men are that Popish priests haue a calling you would be content that infants should be presented to baptisme in the Popish Church vvhich Popish Church in your iudgement is no church at all What I thinke of that particuler I vvill not presently vvrite but this I tell you that this Argument doeth not necessarily follow viz. True circumcision was giuen in Idumea and true baptisme hath bene may be giuen of excommunicated heretiques therefore they of Ierusalem in the former times might require circumcision amongst the Edomites or they of Hippo or Carthage in latter times might require baptisme amongst the Donatists I. Penry My reasons besides that they are no ministers are these And I desire that they may be examined by you good M. Some where you must remember that I speake not of that which hath bene done yesterday but of thē assurance that may be had of that which to morow is to be done R. Some Sir you desire me to examine your reasons You shall haue an easie suite of this for I am very forvvarde to doe you that pleasure You graunt it to be baptisme vvhich vvas administred yesterday in the Popish church but you doubt of that vvhich is deliuered to morow Then yesterday a Sacrament and to morovv none You dare not for your eares say in flat termes that it vvas no baptisme vvhich vvas deliuered heretofore in the Popish church for then many thousandes vvhose Christendome you call in question would condemne you for a Catabaptist But it hath pleased you to set dovvne this marginal note in an other place viz. As I doe not deny that which hath bene done to be a Sacramēt so if any can proue it to be none I will not withstande him In your Exhort to the gouernours c. of Wales pag. 31. If I vvere not vvell acquainted vvith your absurd vvritings I should vvonder at you more then I doe Your reasons such as they are do follovv I. Penry Where there is no true Christ whereunto men can be engraffed by baptisme there true baptisme as touching the substance cannot bee gotten for what baptisme is that which is not an ingraffing into the true Christ But in popery there is no true Christ whereunto men may be ingraffed because he is not the true Christ who either will not or cannot satisfie the wrath of God for the sinnes of the elect without their merits and such is the Christ professed in popery and no other Therefore men cannot be assured to haue the substance of baptisme in the popish Church R. Some I denie your Minor proposition for such as were baptized in the Popish church were engraffed by baptisme into a true Christ The essentiall forme of baptisme was and is retained by the Popish priestes viz. To baptize in the Name of the holy Trinitie If your Minor proposition were true as it is very false then very many in this and other landes which were baptized by Popish priests in the Popish church are vnbaptized for baptisme is an engraffing into the true Christ and you write that no such engraffing is in the Popish church because no true Christ is professed in poperie If you tell me that you speake not of that which was done yesterday but of that which is to morowe it is a blinde and beggerly shift for the Christ professed in poperie was a deuided Christ when her Maiestie was baptized as euen nowe he is in the Popish church That case and profession is all one To proceede because I will answere your reason thorowly I wil set it down in this sort The Christ professed in Poperie is a deuided Christ and cōsequently not a true Christ therefore none in the Popish church are engraffed by baptisme into the true Christ This is your reason M. Penry My answere is your Antecedēt is true I denie your argument My reason is the false profession of any man whatsoeuer cānot separat Christ from his owne institution Rom. 3 therefore seeing Christs institution is in Popish baptisme the true Christ is there that is in that baptisme I doe set downe my wordes more warily then I needed because I finde you to be a meere wrangler and to take vp that which I neuer let fall Besides circumcision in Idumea as you write was true circumcision and a seale of Gods couenant yet the Edomites which you cannot denie failed in the true worship of Almightie God I hope you see by this time that your Arguments are scopae dissolutae very loose ware and slenderly trussed together I am sure you esteemed them mountaines but they are not worthie the name of mollhils I deale plainely with you If my answeres please you not confute them directly and not with ifs ands and whies in which kinde of answering if I may call it answering you haue a speciall grace I. Penry No man can assure himselfe to haue the
substaunce of baptisme out of the Church and that by those that are without the Church for then a sacrament might be had out of the Church which were very impious and absurd to be affirmed But popery is out of the Church and so are all popish priests Therfore no man can assure himselfe to haue the substance of baptisme in poperie by any popish priest R. Some Before that I deny any part of your reason I must tell you that I haue proued alreadie that true baptisme hath bene and may be out of the Church Ciprian thought otherwise and therefore would haue such as were baptized by excōmunicated hereticks to be rebaptized But he was and is condemned for that errour by ancient later writers You giue out very peremptorily that it is very impious and absurde to affirme that baptisme either hath bene or may be out of the Church So did the Donatists in Augustines time It is no great matter what you say Your bolt is soone shot Your water is very shallow Many points vvhich you condemne in your Consistorie for grosse absurdities are manifest trueths in the sound iudgement of all reformed Churches So is this present particuler Touching your argument I denie your Minor My reason is the Popish church is a church though an vnsound Church and Popish priestes haue a calling though a faultie one For proofe of this I referre you to that vvhich I haue vvritten before in this Treatise If you like not my reasons confute them I. Penry That there is no Church at all in poperie and that all popish priests are out of the Church besides the former reasons this one doth further shew If there be a Church in poperie or if all popish priests bee not out of the Church then those magistrates that haue separated themselues and their subiects and all others that made this separation from the Romish religion as from that synagogue where saluation is not to be had and consequently where there is no Church are schismatikes to speake the least Because it is a schisme to make this separation from the Church detest the corruptions thereof we may but make such a separation from the Church we ought not vnlesse we would be accounted schismatiks But those Magistrates and their people that made this separation are not schismatickes because in Poperie the foundation is ouerthrowen You say in your booke M. Some page 33. that you could presse the Argument of the Magistracie against me very farre Whether you may or no that shal be cōsidered when I deale with the point but this I am assured of that in this point you shall be driuen either to defend the absurditie that baptisme is to be had out of the Church in a companie estranged from Christ which I thinke you will not do or vrged so farre as to the plaine breach of a Statute which farre be it from me euen in the cause of treason Will ye say that baptisme may be had out of the Church the assertion is absurd Or will you hold that there is a Church in Poperie the assertion is dangerous and I haue prooued it false It is dangerous because it affirmeth our Magistrates to be schismatiks inasmuch as they haue separated themselues from the Church I hope rather then you will fall into either of these points that you will graunt me the cause R. Some I will answere your seuerall pointes very briefly The reason which you vse to prooue there is no Church at all in popery is this viz. If there bee a Church at al in popery the Magistrates and people which are of the religion are schismaticks at the least My answere is that this is a popish argument I haue answered it before and doe rest in that answere If either you or any of the popish sort mislike my answere you may confute it Besides if there be no Church at all in popery as you affirme why should the Churches of England Germany Dēmarke which were sometimes popish be called reformed Churches The very name of reformed Churches doth manifestly import that the Churches of England Germanie Denmarke c. though popish and vnsound were Churches in some sort before the reformation If you thinke that all the popish sorte which died in the popish Church ore damned you thinke absurdly for you dissent from the iudgement of all the learned protestants and doe presume to sit in Gods chaire which is intollerable sawcinesse To say or write that true baptisme hath beene and may bee out of the Church is a true proposition in diuinitie Augustine did maintaine it against the Donatists The most famous mē Churches in our time are of that iudgement I rest in that with all my heart You account it an absurde proposition The best is you are not master of the sentences as Peter Lumbard was If you were which God defend the sounde diuinity which is taught in Cambridge and Oxford should bee cryed downe and your strange fancies should be ruled cases The argument of the magistracy is touched before I perceiue it hath mooued you a litle for you drawe out a statute of Treasō c. What I beseech you good Sir No lesse then Treason you are a charitable man I haue do and will perfourme all dutie by Gods grace to the religion and my gracious Prince so long as I liue therefore treason statutes can take no hold of mee Yea the refutation of your blasphemous Anabaptisticall popish and proude errours by me is I am sure a performance of a speciall duetie to Almightie God my Prince and this Church And I doubt not but that blessing which God hath giuen already to my last treatise and which his Maiestie will giue to this will marre your market Great wordes shal not fray me c. If your ignorāt disciples wil stil magnifie you it shal not be strāge to me they do but their kind Such as bee learned wise haue do find you out Cognoscitur quis sit vt vt laudetur Coruus The most famous orators that euer were in Rome and Athens could not make the rauen to be no rauen Tertullus commended Felix Act. 24. but Felix was an absurde body and stripped of his office by Claudius Caesar The Samaritans commended Simon Magus Act. 8 Libanius the Sophister commended Iulian the Apostate Socr. lib. 3. cap. 22. Eunomius cōmended Aetius which was a pestilent heretike Theodor. lib. 2. cap. 29. You haue protested many times in your treatise that you reuerence me but here you offer me this choise either to defende that which is in your iudgemēt an absurditie but in deede is none or to incurre the danger of treason c. Doe you thinke that I haue any the least cause to beleeue your glorious protestations Ioab pretended extraordinarie good will to Abner and Amasa but he killed them 2. Sam. 3. and 20. chap. Ismael pretended extraordinarie good wil to them of Sichem Silo Samaria the beast shedde teares but they were Crocodiles teares for
of 80. godly men hee killed 70. of them Ier. cap. 41. Iudas kissed Christ but he betrayed him Matth. 26. You vse goodly wordes sometimes but proud malice will appeare it cannot bee hidden Marcus Cicero in his time had many hollow friendes After his returne from banishment he was reuenged of them Nihil credendo omnia cauendo that is in crediting them in nothing and bewaring of them in euery thing If I serue you so I can not bee iustly blamed You pretende great sinceritie and innocencie but your hereticall absurdities in your treatise and your shamelesse dealing with our Magistrates and learned men doe crie aloude that you are in deede very litle acquainted with sincerity and innocencie I tell you plainely that I like better Humile peccatum quà m superbā innocentiam that is humble sinne then proud innocēcie The humble Publican was more accounted of then the proude Pharisee Luk. 18. I pray God with all my heart to keepe me and all such as loue the religion and detest your Anabaptisticall fancies from such as you and the fantasticall sort are You and they are strange cattel Your hope that I will graunt you the cause you defend is a vaine hope for I thinke great scorne to be one of ignorāt Penries disciples that is a proud and ignorant Anabaptist If you will haue any thing at my hands in diuinitie matters you must gaine it by force of argument If you thinke that I will come off otherwise you are in a wrong boxe for I intend not to be at your whistle Yea I require and charge you in the name of God if you be not voyde of grace to confesse your ignorance to detest your errours to yeeld vnto Gods truth that Gods blessing may rest vpon you If you refuse to doe this take heede that Gods vengeance seaze not vpon you I. Penry Lastly if men might be assured that they could haue the true substance of baptisme in Popery then they ought not to keepe their children from Popish baptisme if there were no other baptisme in the worlde to be had For men might come to their baptisme detest their corruptions if it be Gods baptisme as you M. Some affirmed it to be pag. 20. And they can adde an edifying worde vnto the Sacrament if the recitall of the wordes of institution be an edifying word and that be sufficient to make a Sacrament both which you haue written page 23. 24. But men ought rather to keepe their children vnbaptized then to offer them to bee prophaned by Popish baptisme both for the former reasons and because wee ought to haue no more fellowship with Papists in the seruice of God then with Pagane idolaters M. Caluine hath written otherwise in this point therefore againe I appeale to the word R. Some I vvill ansvvere this section of yours both briefly and roundly by the grace of God That baptisme deliuered in the Popish church was and is Gods baptisme I make no question For proofe of this point I haue set downe waightie reasons in my former treatise One of M. Caluines an other ab Absurdo Your answeres to them are very foolish and are so accounted of by the learned sort I haue examined them a litle in this Treatise It is the iudgement of all the reformed Churches that there was is true baptisme in the Popish church Before you denied it not but now the case is altered you accompt it an errour to affirme it What mutabilitie is this Hee that would saile after your compasse for Diuinitie matters should proue as giddie as a goose I pray God with all my heart to blesse his people in England Wales and to keepe them from such blinde guides as the ignorant sort are and from such blinde guides as the ignorant sort are and from such shamelesse and fantasticall guides as you M. Penry are Concerning this question viz. whether men ought to offer their children to Popish baptisme if there were no other baptisme in the world to be had M. Penry saith one while that they ought if Popish baptisme be Gods Baptisme which before he denied not An other while he is peremptory that mē ought rather to kepe their childrē vnbaptized His reason is because we ought to haue no more fellowship with papists in Gods scruice then with pagane Idolaters The issue therefore nowe is first whether infants ought rather to be kept vnbaptized then to bee presented to popish baptisme Secondly whether no more fellowship is to be had with papists in Gods seruice then with heathen Idolaters Concerning the first question M. Caluines resolution is affirmatiue if the parents which they cannot do without peril of life do publikely detest the popish corruptions M. Caluines reason is the omitting of baptisme is contempt of Christianitie Cal. Epist 104. Of this iudgement are Melanchthon and Peter Martyr Cal. Epist 103. Viretus Tract de commun fid cum papist Cer. pag. 61 62 70. I confesse freely that this is a very waightie question but in this our time a needelesse question and that men of great excellēcie for learning haue their seueral iudgements I would be loath to stirre coales in this argument Touching the other question M. Penry saith that no more fellowship is to be had in religion matters with papists then with pagane Idolaters I dissent from him in this My reasons are first the papists professe the holy Trinitie so doe not the pagane Idolaters Secondly the papists are not altogether aliens from Gods external couenant but the heathen Idolaters as yet are Lastly M. Caluine is very flat against you in this point Epist 104. In steed of answering his reasons in that Epistle you appeale to the word A strange kind of appealing whē M. Caluines arguments are drawen out of the holy word If you wil deale plainly as you ought neuer piddle any longer goe through stitch withall seeing you are ouer shoes aduenture ouer bootes too confute Caluines 104. Epistle and that which he hath written very excellently vpon the 20. verse of the 16. chap. of Ezechiel If you giue the vnset and fayle whereof I make no question you shall lose no credite of learning for you neuer had any as yet Qui semel verecundiae limites c. you knowe the rest I. Penry Seeing therfore in Popery there is no Church no Ministery no Christ Seeing we ought in no case to be ioyned with Papistes in their religion but to be separated from them as from those that are out of the Church and such as are become a very filthy cage and nest of vncleane and sacrilegious idolaters therefore also it necessarily followeth that neither our Popish recusants nor any else offring their children to be baptized in the Popish synagogue by those polluted and vncleane Priestes may assure themselues that they can bee there partakers of true baptisme as touching the substance of baptisme R. Some Seeing therefore in the iudgement of all learned men and all reformed Churches there is in