they ended not their life in sinne because that praying is according to Gods will For it foloweth there immediatly Who so knoweth his brother to sinne he vseth the present tense and not the preterfect tense to haue sinned because his intent is to exhort also the sinner to leaue by time a sinne not to death as one that liued in Schisme but yet was reconciled before he dyed let him after his death request of Christ and life shall be giuen vnto him to one I say sinning not vnto death Sinne there is vnto death I say not that any pray for that because it is not according to Christes will to pray for them that be in hell All iniquitie is sinne and therefore to be diligently auoyded and not so much as one moment to be incurred And there is sinne vnto death As if he would say if you auoyde not that no hope after your death your brethren can not helpe you by praying for you This is the playne and smooth sense of that whole place and so must néedes be because there is no man nor no sinne in this life but we may pray for him and it as neither the Nouatians as bad as they were did denie Onely the Protestantes denie it because they haue no other shift to auoyde this place And therby let any indifferent any Christian man iudge whether this be not a playne place for praying for the dead Fulkes wordes of sinnes in this life and men in this life not to be prayed for and that to be this sinne and sinner vnto death I shall recite in the twelfth Chapter amongst his grossest errors and absurdities Thus I haue answered thanks be to God al his Scriptures against Purgatory and all his arguments made out of the Authoritie thereof both negatiuely and affirmatiuely Cap. 7. part 4. Wherby appeareth to the full the vanitie of his bragges in the last Chapter against the church of God that he could would produce against the doctrine thereof such plaine testimonies of Scripture such Scripture also for the meaning of ech place as by no meanes might be auoyded Whereas amongst all his testimonies you sée there is not one but it hath bene cléerely answered As now in this fourth last part shall be answered likewise with the like helpe of god all other Scriptures that in these two most insolent Libelles in any place vp and downe he alleageth against any other point of the Churches doctrine The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth And first to put all the same in some order for the more vtilitie of the Reader I conceaue all the differences that are betwéene vs and the Protestants in this diuision Some are about the witnesses of Gods word the principles of Diuinitie or groundes of all truth which by them is onely Scripture by vs not onely Scripture but also the Church and certain others whervpon we frame our Motiues to all men to beléeue vs not the Heretikes shewing them that such and such are the principles which they must beléeue and withall that the said principles euery one of them stand for vs and not for the Protestantes Some are about other particular or priuate controuersies Which may be reduced vnto these two heades Good-workes and the Sacramentes the doctrine of which both they corrupt with their new inueÌ„tion of Onely faith Only Scripture and Only Faith as they do the foresaid with their toye of Onely Scripture What Scripture he alleageth about the first sort I haue in the two first partes of this chapter reported them al answered theÌ„ sauing a very few which I reserue to the tenth chapter which shall be of euery Motiue or Demaund apart by it selfe There in these fiue Motiues of Churches Seruice Priesthood with Sacrifice Monkes and Pope I will answere his few Scriptures thervnto belonging Now then concerning the second sort and first Good-workes what he alleageth about them concerneth them partly in generall partly in speciall that is to say prayer fasting or almes About Good-works in generall Iustification Good works in generall it concerneth that he saith They do not iustifie wherevnto he alleageth two places one of S. Paule Pur. 450. the other of Esay We beleue saith he that a man is not iustified by workes but by faith onely Rom. 3. And yet we beleue that good workes are necessary to be in euery man that is iustified A faâ—sarie Iac. 5. The wordes of S. Iames be not as he saieth but expressely against him A man is iustified by workes and not by faith onely Where you sée also that it is in all one sense that works do iustifie and faith The words of S. Paule likewise be not as he saith but thus A man is iustified by faith without the workes of the law That is to say although he haue not euermore done the works which the law commaundeth to wit good works yea although he haue sometimes yea and alwayes done the cleane contrarie to wit all euill works yet let him come to the Catholike faith and he shall there finde a remedie for all and of a wicked and so wicked a man be made iuste all his sinnes and wickednes béeing remitted him This sayth S Paule and the same say we But after he is so iustified he must not do the like agayne he must then kéepe the commaundementes of the Law béeing now by Christ made a new man and able therevnto and by so doing he shall be more iustified as S. Iames saith Conferre these two places of S. Paules also The iustice that is of the Law qui fecerit homo the man that hath done it shall liue by it Rom. 10. ex Leuit. 18. Which is in effect that no man shall liue by it because no man hath done it but all men haue done against it all being borne in sinne therfore not by the works of iustice which we had done but according to his owne great mercy he saued vs by baptisme Tit. 3. Do you marke the tense He speaketh of works before faith where you should haue alleaged of works after faith And so withall is answered your other place Ar. 102. where you say that the Popish Church is not content to be clothed in the white shining silke which is the iustification of Saintes made white in the bloud of the Lambe but with the filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Esai 64. If God conuert your heart that you may returne to your mother the Catholike Churche you shall finde that she will make nothing of all the good workes which you do nowe in Heresie because it is but mans righteousnesse But the good workes whiche afterwarde in the Churche you shoulde haue of her husbande the Lambe where learned you to call them The filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Apoc. 19. He that doubteth whether those Iustifications of the faithfull in the Apocalipse be as I say iust workes the same Apostle if he will conferre places in
then to the Arrians to be an Homousian If you Sacramentaries or Caluinistes delight not in the name of Protestants the Lutherans do and stand as earnestly against you vppon their senioritie for that name as we do stand agaynst you both vpon our senioritie for the name of Christians of Catholikes But your confessing of the name on the one side and yet saying on the other side that your true Christians delight not in it Ar. 65. Infra ca. 11. cont 50. Ar. 65. as also that they desire to be called Christians without choosing any other name I reserue to the place of your cōtradictions But of vs you say as much They can not be content with the name of Christians but choose vnto them selues new names after the calling of their Sect-masters as Franciscanes Dominicanes Benedictins Gilbertins Augustinians Scotistes Thomistes Albertistes c. This is answered in my Demaunds Motiues as all the rest also in effect Yet I say againe to it A Sect importeth a diuision Now what diuision is betwene those Catholikes and vs the other Catholiks that haue none of those names Be we not all of one faith and of one communion So easily is your accusation wyped away and not onely from vs I say who haue none of those names but also from our brethren who haue them They be not of that sort as the name of Christians and therefore by Logike you know not priuatiuely opposite therevnto But suche are these Arrians Pelagians Lutherans Caluinistes Protestantes Because being before of Christ of his vnitie of his communion all called Christians they for some matter either of faith or other diuiding themselues frō the same follow the communion or felowship of Arius of Pelagius of Luther of Caluin of those Protesters Why then are those our brethren so named if S. Augustine S. Benet S. Frauncis S. Dominike if S. Thomas and Scotus were not Sect-masters I answere the first sort because they professe to liue after the rules of those principall Abbots the other sort because they hold certaine Scholasticall questions which either can not be matters of faith or els as yet be not because they be not yet defined by the Church according to the opinions of those principall Schole Doctors 9. Conuersion of Heathen Nations Motiue 25. Article 1. My nienth Demaund doth note who are after the Apostles the Conuerters of all Nations from Paganisme whom the Scripture calleth the witnesses of Christ to the extremes of the earth Act. 1. to wit we and not the Protestants According to Tertullians most singular obseruation speaking of Heretikes and saying As touching the ministerie of the word Tertul. de Praesc what should I speake considering that this is their endeuour non Ethnicos conuertendi sed nostros euertendi Not to conuert the Heathen but to subuert our people This glory they do more seeke after Si stantibus ruinam non si iacentibus eleuationem operentur To work ruine to such as are standing and not raysing to such as are lying And so Fulke may glory I do not denie as he doth also where he saith Ar. 33. Ar. 95. The Land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieromyn of Prage Againe in another place And at this day the most part of Europe is conuerted from Idolatry Heresie and Antichristianitie such he counteth the Catholike faith vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaine and Italie a great number vnder persecution and tyrannie That is your glory in déede that you haue subuerted many in many Christian nations We can not so glory nor you can not shew that we haue done the like in any Nation although you say with a brasen face Ar. 3. It is certayne that the Popish Church hath peruerted and corrupted al parts of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion But that you haue conuerted any Nation from Paganisme you do not nor you can not boast But the truth is although you say that we haue not cōuerted the Nations to Christes faith Pur. 460. but peruerted all nations from the faith of Christ that our Church that is to say the Cōmunion of S. Peters Sée Apostolike or the church beginning visibly at Hierusalem and visibly growing on to this day is she that conuerteth al Pagane Nations to be Christians not only at this present so many nations of both the Indies and in Afrike item so many others that this last thousand yeres haue bene conuerted thrée wherof you name Liuonia Prussia Lithuania Ar. 3.85 with this lying censure that we conuerted them by force of armes rather then by preaching and teaching but also all them that were conuerted either in the 500. yeres afore that or also in the Apostles time it selfe Against this cleare trueth what mist haue you to cast Forsooth not we but certaine Heretikes Schismatikes conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name Ar. 2.3 though to false religion Do you graunt that it was to false religion yet bring that for an instance It is an euident argument that you had no instance in the nations that we cōfesse to haue bene conuerted to the true faith of Christ Was not this scope inough for you reason inough for vs when we say as in my Demaund you may sée that it was our Church by which all Nations were conuerted or corrected to the true faith of Christ And yet also for your said instancies where you quote your Authors they shall be answered In the meane time I quote to you Eus li. 2. ca. 1. reporting the conuersion of Ethiopia to haue bene of the right stampe according to Psal 67. and Act. 8. which two places he there doth cite Ar. 2.3 because you to shew that the true Church of Christ did not conuert all do say For in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the False Apostles whiche taught circumcision obseruation of the Law in which heresie they continue vnto this day Who should tell that better then the Ethiopians themselues whom we sée to haue their house at Rome and to be Catholikes And your selfe do saye in another place Pur. 357. that their Liturgie doth sauour playnly the vsage of the Greke Church Their Emperour did his obediēce to Paulus III and also an Ethiopian Abbot which Abbot in his Epistle dedicatorie before the rites of their Baptisme Liturgie doth expresly inueigh against them that did falsly report of them as not Catholikes and obedient subiects to the Sée Apostolike much reioysing therein and desiering that they might be so taken Howbeit I denie not but there might be some corruption though not of heresie peraduenture but for lacke of frée conuersing béeing intercluded by the Turkes and Saracenes and often oppressed by Tyrants and Infidels of their owne with the Romane Church In qua semper ab ijs qui sunt
also for hereafter Euen as Fulke also him selfe saith Ar. 78. Pur. 298. In despight of the diuel and all her enemies she is to this day preserued and shall be to the worlds ende and none other but she Moti 48. 51 Apostasie Last of al I shew that it is not so much an Heresie as a plaine Apostasie from Christ that the Protestants haue brought in vnder the name of the Gospel Wherof also I haue said ynough ca. 8. pag. 118. So that if it were euer damnable to giue eare to any Heretikes it is damnable to giue eare to these Which it were good for all men to thinke earnestly vpon before it be to late ¶ The eleuenth Chapter What grosse Contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof BEsides all that hath bene yet said another most iust motiue not to follow the Protestants may be this to any reasonable man because they know not themselues what to holde nor what to say and therefore doe vtter straunge contradictions in their bookes by reason that they will say any thing rather then yéelde plainely to the trueth A notable ensample hereof we haue in Fulke specially about the question of the Church in his booke of the Articles as I will here note very briefely leauing to the discrete Readers consideratiō what I might enlarge vpon euery particular First as touching the Church of Rome on the one side thus he saith Ar. 96. You are neuer able to answere the argumentes that Peter was neuer at Rome And then where is the Apostolike Sea succession c Then on the contrarie side The Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles b Pur. 373.361.374 it was an Apostolike Church 2 c Pur. 373.374 Those auncient Fathers whom D. Allen doth name the last of them is Vincentius Lirinensis An. 420. did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies and c Pur. 373.374 among the Apostolike Churches specially named the Church of Rome because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles Yet contra where d Apud Au. de gra Chr. cont Pelag. c. 43 Pelagius within that compasse commended S. Ambrose for the Romaine faith and most pure sence in the Scriptures Fulke saith therevpon e Pu. 405. And by the way note here the Hereticall bragge of the Romaine faith 3 Speaking of the same Fathers and Church of Rome f Pur. 374. It had by Succession reteined euē vntill their dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra g Ar. 85. She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly Succession of Bishops except so many Schismes as they write of be orderly Successions By the time of those Fathers there had bene foure Schismes 4 h Pur. 373.374 It continued at that time in the doctrine of the Apostles h Pur. 373.374 it reteined by Succession that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra He charged it with sundrie errors here Cap. 3. .4 namely P. Liberius with Arrianisme P. Innocentius for housling of Infantes eight Popes for the Supremacie 5 i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. It was a true Church an Apostolike Church i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. a faithfull Church true i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. and Apostolike Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her Contra k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 The Church of Rome neuer preached the word of trueth She neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of Sacramentes according to Christes institution The true Catholike Church hath ouerthrowen Heresies of all sortes But the Popish Church was neuer able to encounter with Heretikes k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 Rome may be a nurse of Antichristians but neuer did good vnto Christians k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 I am able to proue that the Primitiue Church affirmed a Supra pag. 29. your Church to be the Church of Antichrist He meaneth the l Supra ca. 9. pag. 155. places of S. Irenée S. Hierome S. Augustine calling Rome Babylon which he vnderstandeth as though they had so called the Church of Rome in their time also as the Protestants doe now at this time 6 m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cuppe full out of which all Nations haue drunke m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. Euen from the Apostles time the diuell neuer left to set in his foote for his sonne Antichristes dominion vntill he had placed him in the Temple of God prepared the wide world for his walke and then came m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Generall defection Contra Ar. 38.16.33.34 Supr p. 117. All Nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes For as it hath bene often said the Greeke Church and all other Orientall Churches of Asia and Africa neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and specially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie they will not vnto this day acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike nor her authoritie to be lawfull And yet we shall now heare that the preuailing of the Popes religion and his Antichristian exaltation consisteth specially in that point Ar. 36. 7 The religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled in the yere of our Lord 607. in which the Pope first obteined his Antichristian exaltation to wit Bonifacius the 3. of Phocas the Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church Contra in the same place Because you speake of the first entring of Popish religion which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie it first began to aduaunce it selfe in Victor about the yere of our Lord 200. And likewise in diuers others before S. Bonifacius the third as he confesseth here cap. 3. and withall that the Church of Rome all that while was the Church of Christ and not of Antichrist Ar. 102. Pur. 287.238 8 The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie Euen in the Apostles time and from that time in all times whensoeuer and wheresoeuer was any peece of myste or darke corner though all the reste were light there were the steppes of your walke It may be a shame for you Papistes to leaue and condemne for heresie all that is true in the Fathers writings and agreable to the Scripture Ar. 43. Contra where he distinguisheth the Religion of the Papistes from the great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chief foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters Ar. 43.36.38 Supra c. 10. pag. 223. 9 We say not that the Religion of the Papists came in sodenly but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espyed by the true Pastors beeing earnestly occupied against great
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
neyther hath priuilege nor authoritie and yet out it commeth by permission at the least to make forsooth a face and showe of somewhat for a time and if after it chaunce to be of some Catholike dasht out of countenaunce then the shame to be no mans but onely Fulkes All which considered I doubted a while whether it were good to returne him an answer or no least peraduenture I should but lease my labour rather to expect yet somewhat longer whether any do answer my Motiues or Demaunds as by aduise out of England I haue nowe more then this tweluemonth wayted therevpon Yet my resolution hath bene séeing that abundans cautio non nocet to put out my hande a litle and take of his vizard that being playnly discouered euery man may beholde and abhorre his foule fauour and beare me witnesse that he had bene better to kéepe in not onely those nine yeres and two yeres but also for euer following rather the ensamples of those other two brethren mentioned in his preface to the Reader of whom the one purposed to haue answered the booke of Purgatory himself but afterward vndertooke rather the printing of Fulkes answere the other learnedly began the answering of it but was he knoweth not how letted from the accomplishing of the same So hath Satan hitherto hindred the setting abrode of this answere sayth he of his owne but God hath now at length brought it forth I doubt not he addeth but to his glory and the confusion of satan in his members the Papistes As I also doubt not but God in déede hath brought it forth to his glory and to the confusion of heresie so that satan had done more politikely to haue hindred still if he could the setting abrode of it such stuffe it conteineth Better stuffe we should haue had if better had they had Well séeing that M.D. Allen is otherwise and better occupied I who haue already succéeded him in his Articles and do owe vnto him at one worde all duetie both for the publike and namely for my priuate will here with the helpe of God laye so much of Fulks wares open out of both his bookes that although my meaning is directly against his first booke yet my treatise shall appeare to be a iust reply to both his bookes First therefore I will shew briefly how he confesseth that out of the true Church is no saluation See the contentes more at large in the ende of this booke to this ende that when as in my processe it shall be manifest that he and his felowes are out of the true Church and that we haue the true Church both they may clearely sée in what case they stand and their felowes may looke in time vnto their reconciliation Secondly I will shewe somewhat more at large for what space he graunteth the true Church to haue continued in sight and knowledge of the world and what persons and companies to haue bene of it to the ende that neither he nor no man else being able to proue that we agrée not with those times and persons in substance of religion or haue gone out of the vnitie of their communion it may euidently be séene that we likewise at this time be of the same true Church and he with his fellowes to be without the true Church because they be out of our Church Thirdly for as much as on the other side he could not denie but that he and his agrée not with the saide true Church I will shew how he is fayne to holde that the true Church may erre and that he chargeth it then with the same errours with the which he chargeth vs now to the end that thou mayst sée that for all those surmised errours he hath not any iust cause to denie vs the true Church which he giueth to them that with vs were in the same errours Nay I will further declare in the fourth place that he chargeth them with diuers errors wherewith he neither can nor doth charge vs that it may much more appeare that we haue the true Church nowe if they so much worse then we had the true Church then Fiftly I wil report the reason for which by his saying they had the true Church then notwithstanding their errors to the end that where thou shalt sée it to be such a reason as agréeth to vs nowe as well thou mayst perceyue that he must no lesse graunt vs the true Church now After this I will note briefly his zeal towards Caluin and others that in déede are or at least be vnfaignedly thought of him to be of his Church at this time how that he can not in any wise beare any thing to be spoken agaynst them whereas yet he not onely can beare but also him selfe speaketh so much agaynst the olde auncient Church and the members thereof And in consideration hereof my Catholike zeale must do no lesse as béeing in déede with all other Catholikes of this time a member of the very same auncient Church in olde time but answere for the said Church shewing in euery particuler how vnworthily and vniustly he chargeth it with erring Which I will in like maner do for the Church also of later times defending it likewise against all his like accusations of it Seuenthly I will declare howe that séeing manifestly the true Church Councels Fathers and all other euidences of Christian Religion to make cléerely against him and his he is faine and nothing abasht at the matter to take exception against all by the bare name and colour of Onely Scripture and therein behaueth him selfe so boldly as if the holy Scripture were as manifestly with him as all the other are manifestly against him Where also because like an other Phormio homo confidens he prouoketh vs to a disputation of Scripture I will make him a reasonable offer Eightly I will most cléerely shew how that not withstanding all these great crakes and bolde facinges of his he hath not for all that in these two bookes alleaged so much as one text of Scripture that maketh any whit against vs. And to that purpose I will aunswer all his allegations first concerning Onely Scripture to be credited next concerning the Church whether it can erre and whether we haue it or they then concerning Purgatory and last of all concerning all other matters that any where he mentioneth by the way Ninthly I will likewise shew whereas he maketh himselfe so sure of Scripture that he holdeth the testimonies of Councels and Fathers to be no confirmation of trueth and alleageth them sometimes notwithstanding although because of his so holding I might neglect those allegations yet I will shewe I say that of all which he alleageth no one neither expoundeth any Scripture nor beareth any other testimonie with him against vs. Which wil be a plaine demonstration of that which I proposed here aboue in the second Chapter to wit that wée haue still the true Church because we still so throughly and entirely agrée
with them who by his owne confession had in their time the true Church Tenthly because all D. Allens Articles are in effect contained in my Motiues and Demaundes I will examine what he answereth not to my probations for to them or any one of them he lightly answereth not as I say afore but euen to the bare titles of them And for as much as his answeres will soone appeare to be no answers I will examine whether at the leastwise he obiecteth any thing to the purpose to the end that when thou shalt sée that all is so litle or rather nothing at all thou maist perceaue that God for his Churches glory blinded them to send such a booke abroade Which thou shalt againe more plainely perceaue in the eleuenth Chapter where I will lay forth his marueilous grosse and palpable contradictions yea and in great numbers also And againe as plainely in the twelft Chapter where I will display certaine straunge and detestable positions of his and also his ignoraunce in the Scriptures and other learning Theologicall To the which I might but for prolixitie ioyne many ensamples perteining to a falsarie putting him in minde withall of his horrible blasphemies as him selfe also must confesse them to be because he can not auoide it but that the Church against whom he hath poured them is the true Church In the conclusion I will amongst some other things aduertise the Reader what more may be desired for the full iustifying of the booke of Purgatorie though this much be ynough and superabundaunt but for iustification of the Articles that no more can be desired But now let vs come to the perfourming of these our promisses Ar. and Pur. in the margins signifie the page of Fulkes bookes against the Articles and against Purgatorie ¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defence of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie ¶ The first Chapter That he confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation THis I shew briefly and most plainly by his owne words as where he saith The house of refuge or defence may be applied to the Church Ar. pag. 108. out of which is no saluation and in whose bosome it becommeth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of God Ar. 83. And in an other place There is no man of what age or yeres soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a mēber of the Catholike Church Agayne This we affirme that out of the Church there is no saluation Agayne We vtterly denie that beside the true Church Ar. 62. Ar. 76. there was an vntrue church that practised those offices of baptizing and other spirituall actions to the saluation of any man And agayne No man aliue Ar. 73. that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church For he that is not a member of the body of Christ can by no meane receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therfore this is certaine that out of this Church none could be saued This then béeing so confessed as in our Church it is also openly practised first in baptisme to take men in then in reconciliation if they went or were cast afterwarde out to receiue them in againe I will stande no longer vpon it but procéede further ¶ The second Chapter That he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres after Christ and the knowen members thereof THis likewise will be euident by his owne wordes if the Catholike eare can beare his blasphemies withall first if we consider what he writeth of the Romans and their Bishops both since Bonifacius the third and also afore him Ar 35. Being asked What yere the religion of the Papists came in and preuayled Thus he answereth We may well say that the religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled that yeare in which the Pope first obteined his antichristian exaltation which was in the yere of our Lord 607 when Boniface the third for a great summe of money obteined of Phocas the trayterous murtherer and adultrous Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church And what after that Since that time saith he that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yeare of our Lorde 1414. Wherevpon in other places he saith agayne Ar. 27. Pur. 344 From Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and antichristes And agayne Or any succeeded Boniface the third which beside their abhominable life were all heretikes and antichristes And where he speaketh of the olde Doctors by and by he addeth as in an antithesis Pur. 405 Nay rather count vpon the Popes to be pillers of your Church Doctours of your learning and Fathers of your fayth that haue bene within these seuen or eyght hundred yeres By this that he saith of the time after Boniface the third you perceyue his confession as touching the time afore him Yet to make it more playne he shall expressely make him selfe his owne confession Pur. 194. Gregory was the last of all the Romishe Bishops in whom was any sparke of goodnes because Boniface his successor See pag. and all the rest by Gregories owne iudgement and prophecie were all Antichristes And moste manifestly in an other place Pur. 372 where D. Allen vrgeth the succession of the Romane Bishops by example of Ireneus Cyprian Tertullian Optatus Hierome Augustine and Vincentius Lirinensis who confounded therewith all heretikes and saith It is a straunge thing that the Fathers hauing then store of Apostolike Successions did euer choose out for the warrant of their fayth from amongst the rest the Romane Seate and nowe when there is no Apostolike Churche lefte in the whole worlde but it that they will not haue vs referre our fayth to it which was euer of all other moste free from falshood To this Fulke in his aunswere saith That these men specially named the Churche of Rome it was because the Churche of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And a litle after As for that which M. Allen counteth so straunge it is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient Fathers to appeale to the iudgement of the Churche of Rome moueth vs nowe to condemne the Churche of Rome of heresie Wherefore did they reuerence the Churche of Rome Aske Tertullian he answereth True doctrine in the true Churche hovv long because it had by Succession reteyned euen vntill his dayes that fayth which it did first receyue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Churche therefore it was an Apostolike Churche This answere he learned of his master Caluine who in his Institutions first putteth downe our allegation saying Cal. Ins li. 4. ca. 2 nu 2.3 Magnifice illi quidem suam nobis Ecclesiam commendant Allegant enim
eam apud se initio sana doctrina sanguine Martyrum bene fundatam perpetua Episcoporum Successione conseruatam fuisse ne intercideret Commemorant quanti hanc Successionē fecerint Irenaeus Tertullianus Origenes Augustinus alij that is They in deede set foorth vnto vs their Churche very gloriously for they alleage that beeing in the beginning well founded amongest them with sounde doctrine and with the bloud of Martyres it was by the continuall Succession of Bishoppes preserued from decaying They report out of Irenaeus Tertullian Origene Augustine and others howe highly they esteemed this Succession And then he putteth herevnto his owne aunswere saying Cum extra controuersiam esset nihil a principio vsque ad illam aetatem mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. that is Considering that it was a playne case that from the beginning euen vntill that time nothing was chaunged in doctrine the holy Doctors tooke in argument that which was sufficient for the ouerthrowing of all newe errors to witte That they oppugned the doctrine which euen from the verye Apostles them selues had bene inuiolably and with one consent reteined This graunt both of the master and of his Scholar as more by a great deale then in this Chapter we néeded The true Churche not onely to haue continued so long it selfe but also to haue kepte inuiolably and generally with one accorde the true faith and true doctrine which of the Apostles thē selues she had receiued The like he confesseth of our owne Countrey also Ar. 49. where he saith The Church of the Brytaines before Augustine whom Saint Gregory sent from Rome to conuert the English in our said countrey of Britannie came in with Romish seruice had they not trow you Authentical Seruice which continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time To which confession let it be added out of S. Bedes Storie that the a Bed hist li. 2. ca. 4.2 li. 3. ca. 25. greatest point wherein the Christian Brytons and our Apostle S. Augustine differed was about the kéeping of Easter day and that also not so great as in olde time betwéene S. Victor of Rome and the Christians of Asia as this man ignorantly b Pur. 371. here ca. 10. pag. somwhere affirmeth that is to say not whether it should be alwayes kept with the Iewes vpon the verye day of the full Moone according to the heresie of the c Aug. heresi 29. Tessaresdecatite or Quartadecimani for that obseruation d Eus in vita Const li. 3. ca. 28. Britannie as the Emperour d Eus in vita Const li. 3. ca. 28. Constantinus witnesseth detested no lesse then other prouinces at the time of the Nicene Councell but onely vpon what e Beda supra sonday it should be kept So then this being their greatest difference and yet therein also the right obseruation being that which was brought from Rome as no man will denie you sée what graunt this man must make as to Britannie so likewise to Rome at that time to witte not onely the true Churche but withall the same faith which the Apostles taught though in this Chapter as I haue alreadie said we looke no more but for the true Church Which same true Church he graunteth againe many other wayes vnto the Romanes and their Bishops in that he geueth it to sundry notable personages and companies that were in vnitie and in one Church with the said Romaines as to the auncient Doctors and Councels to the Martyrs Monkes and other Christians not onely that frequented those Cryptes or holye vautes vnder the heathen and persecuting Emperours but also that gathered themselues afterward in those magnificall newe Temples vnder the Christian Catholike Emperours and finally to those Catholike Emperours themselues euen to Mauritius who liued with S. Gregory Ar. 60. Of the Doctors his confession is this The most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostamus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. were doubtles members of the true Church of Christ Againe Ar. 71. The Church of the Arians was not the Catholike Church but Athanasius and a a Such is his skill in the storie of that time few other that were banished and persecuted were the true Catholike Church Againe b Ar. 59. Iustinus Martyr and Irenaeus two of the most auncient authenticall writers that the Church next vnto the Apostles had And againe c Pur. 434. The old doctors had their measure of Gods spirit Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods spirit and both martyrs Againe Pur. 405. The Doctors of Gods Church Augustine Ambrose Chrysostome Basill c. Againe It is a good argument Ar. 27. that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment and ministerie and especially the succession of d A proper distribution the Popes in all ages to be ours and yet the Apostles Doctors to be his Sapientes confitentur non abscondunt patres suos quoth Eliphaz against Iob. cap. xv Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers But our Church which hath not had so many registers chroniclers and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer but yet honester men to name we can name Peter Paul c. Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hilarius Ambrosius Augustinus Gyldas c Then as touching auncient Councels thus he saith f Ar. 97. The foure best generall councels were gathered by our Churche Againe g Pur. 430. Pur. 296. If any Councell decree according to the Scriptures as the Councell of the Apostles did Act. 15 and the Councell of Nice with diuers other we receaue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God To this place of Doctors and Councels pertaineth that also which he confesseth of the Church that resisted and ouercame the olde heresies as where D. Allen had said It is not you that shall outface Gods Church she hath by the spirit of God beaten downe your proudders the Arrians the Macedonians the Anabaptistes as the Donatistes c. and all your predecessors He answereth 297. You boast that your Church hath beaten downe our proudders the Arrians Macedonians Anabaptistes It was the Church of Christ that ouerthrewe those Heretikes And in an other place likewise Ar. 10. I demaund saith D. Allen what Church hath mightely gone through borne downe fully vanquished all heresies in times past aswell against the blessed Trinitie as other articles of our Religion I answere saith Fulke the true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the worde of God as her dutie was and fought against them with the sworde of the spirite which is the word of God and by the aide of God obtained the victory and triumphed ouer them So did the fathers of the primitiue Church from time to time confute heresies by the
doe erre by their authoritie and the authoritie of their Successors after them to this time no greater authoritie in the meane time clearely ruling ouer the case to the contrarie parte but rather the more it is scanned the more continully it appeareth that their part is still to bée followed and the contrarie parte still to be condemned and accursed ¶ The fourth Chapter That he chargeth the saide Primitiue true Church with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. HEre I haue to present him with an other reason why he shoulde graunt vnto vs the true Churche rather then to the olde Fathers for so muche as he will confesse vs to bée frée from diuers errors that he chargeth them withall most of them also being so great and so grosse that none of the errors that he imputeth to vs can be thought comparable by the iudgement of any man that is any whitte indifferent and not altogether blinded with an huge beame of partialitie And let the Reader lay this to the last Chapter before and conferre all diligently together That he confesseth I say that there may bée a Companie which erreth not onely some principall members but also the whole bodye of it and which erreth obstinately and moreouer whiche erreth the grossest errors that can bée and them in no small number and yet the same companie maye bée the true Churche and in déede also hath bene the true Churche so that no péece of this nor all this together will serue him him I saye to proue our companie not to bée the true Churche And then afterwarde let it bée considered what better or what other stuffe he hath to proue the same and if he haue any suche eyther better or other then this refuse a Gods name to bée of our Churche and séeke after hym thy saluation where else thou canst finde it Well then to come to those other errors that were as he sayth the Primitiue Churches and are not ours and to beginne at the toppe Ar. 35. D. Allen requireth the Protestantes to declare when the true Church decayed To this I answere saith Fulke First Euen in the Apostles time there arose manye heresies whiche did not a little trouble the Churche Secondlye But immediately after the Apostles time while the Fathers of the Churche were earnestly occupied in resisting of horrible heresies by the crafte of Satan some errors and abuses crepte into the true Churche of Christ which at the first because they were small and men occupyed in greater matters were eyther not espyed or not regarded And howe declareth he this Iustinus Martyr was in this error that the Angells lusted after women and therefore were turned into diuells What more Irenaeus affirmeth that our Sauiour Christ lyued here .50 yeares And what more Also both he and Papias the Disciple of S. Iohn helde this error that Christ shoulde raigne a thousande yeares after the Resurrection here in fleshe And what of all this Whereby it is manifest seeyng these auncient Fathers and pillers of the Church were thus stained with errors that the Church in their time could not be free from the same Againe It seemeth also that the Churche in Iustinus his time was in some error about Second mariages and diuorcementes After all whiche he concludeth in the end And so it is euident that the true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time Where the diligent Reader marketh that he vseth decaying and erring indifferently one for the other As for that which he sayeth there of abuses and corruptions entered into the Church of Christ as a preparatiue to the Religion of the Papistes it belonged to the last Chapter and therefore I noted it there Supra pag. And so much of the Apostles time and also of the time immediatly after the Apostles Let vs procéede and come downe lower Cyprians time was such a time saith he as Cyprian and all the Byshops of Africa decreed in Councell Pur. 287. that those which were Baptized by heretikes shoulde be Baptized againe And therefore it was no such time but that he and all his fellowes might and did erre in some opinions contrarie to the trueth of Gods worde And lower agayne Vnder the Emperours Ar. 15. Constantius Constans and Valence the true Churche was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius what time also Liberius Byshop of Rome was infected with the same heresie Straight after that time did Sainct Hierome florishe whom amongest others in the seconde Chapter he confessed to bée a member of the true Churche And him he chargeth not onely Supra pag. as I alleaged in the last Chapter that he was almost fallen into the heresie of Tertullian in condemning Second mariages Pur. 419. Ar. 46. But also thus in an other place Consider what perilous assertions these be that the Lambe is euery where and that the Martyrs are euerye where this is to destroye the humanitie of Christ and to geue diuinitie vnto the Martyrs I doubte not but Sainct Ieronym if he had quietly considered these absurdities He lacked but such a monitor woulde haue reuoked them as erroneous and hereticall but whyle he rather followed affection then iudgement you may see howe he was deceaued At the same time was the thirde Councell of Carthage and Sainct Augustine one of the Byshops thereof Ar. 89. It he chargeth thus The Councell of Carthage the third Cap. 23. determined that all prayers at the Altar should be directed onely to the Father and not to the Sonne or the holy Ghost Whether this be an error to define That it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost let euery man iudge And to put more weight to this his accusation he addeth But you will except that this was a prouinciall Synode and not a Generall Councell But I answere you it hath the authoritie of a generall Councell because it was confirmed in the sixte generall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo But of all others most insolently he insulteth and triumpheth against the auncient Church for ministring the blessed Sacramēt to Infants Ar. 87. I will proue vnto you saith he that the Church of Rome hath falsly interpreted diuers sentences of Scripture and therfore by that which she hath done it can not be doubted but that she may do it One then for example S. Augustine was in this error that he thought Infants must receiue the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ vnder payne of damnation and was deceiued by false interpretation of this Scripture Except ye eate the flesh of the Sonne of man drinke his bloud c. Ioh. 6. This error and false interpretation he affimeth to be common to all the Westerne Church and to Pope Innocent him selfe Contra duas Epist Pelag. ad Bonifacium li. 2. cap. 4. contra Iulianum li. 1. cap. 2. Againe in an other place where D. Allen admonished his Reader saying Pose M.
pag. they held it not and therefore both to be alike iustified or both alike condemned as I shall haue a place againe in the .9 Chapter to declare further when I answere to all that he alleageth vp and downe to proue that wée agrée not throughly with the Fathers in substance of doctrine ¶ The sixt Chapter An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherwith he hath charged the Church of the first .600 yeares and afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times HItherto I haue so procéeded in this my defence of our Churche that now is as supposing that both it the auncient Church before it hath erred in manner as he chargeth it and declaring that he must confesse it to be the true Church still notwithstanding that it erreth now as he confesseth it to haue bene the true Churche afore notwithstanding that it erred in many of the same articles and also in sundry others then But now if I can further defend it that for all his accusations yet it hath not euer erred neither in those former nor in these later ages Note vvel you that seeke for the Church then will the curable Reader I hope much more acknowledge that it is most worthely to be sought vnto and obeyed and their Antisynagogue to be forsaken and abhorred and that much more againe if moreouer I defend it that also it can not erre For then séeing they confesse that theirs may erre it will follow therof that theirs is not the true Churche But that point I wil reserue to the .8 and .9 Chapter where I will answere the Scriptures and fathers that he any where alleageth to proue that the true Church may erre here I will but maintaine that it hath not erred Fulkes zeale in answering for Caluine and others being in deede of his Church And this to doe I am moued specially by the truth of the matter it selfe but secondarily also by example of this same Fulke who though he say that their Church may erre yet can not his zeale abide to heare that it doth erre or rather he saith no more but that the true Church may erre so as where he may séeme to speake of a true Church distinct from their Church now to wit of the Fathers Church But else when he speaketh expressely of their owne Church that now is as he holdeth alwayes earnestly that it doth not erre so he neuer saith so much plainely as that it may erre yea sometimes also in his zeale he breaketh out against the Fathers them selues at once and against vs as where D. Allen said Pur. 369.371 One of them was so impudent to say in an open booke that the Liturgies of the Fathers made all against the Catholiks And a litle after If their Seruice like you so well or at least better then S. Gregories Masse you might with more honestie haue coped for any one of them then haue forged a new one of your owne which in deede is directly repugnant to all other rites in the Christian world To this I answere saith Fulke We haue with more honestie reformed our Liturgie according to the word of God example of the oldest Church then Gregorie Basill Chrysostome if they were theirs or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leauing the ancient Liturgies that were vsed in the Churche before their time because they did not sufficiently expresse their errors superstitiō forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God And in another place first on the one side he accuseth S. Ambrose the Church afore in his time Pur. 226. saying Such superstitions crept into the Church by emulation of the Paganes Then on the other side of his owne he saith For auoiding of all which inconueniences that haue risen and may rise The vvise Church of Geneua by ceremonies practised at burialls the Churche of Geneua very wisely godly vseth no more ceremonies in burying their dead then are conuenient for the reuerent laying vp of the corps Pur. 412. Againe where D. Allen saith They be as saucie with Gods Churche Councells and chiefe gouernours as we be with the Iackestrawes of Geneua See here I pray you the zeale of the man You confesse hereby your selfe to be a saucie Iacke And he addeth that the world can testifie that there is passing grauitie and modestie in the lightest persons of all that Churche Againe where D. Allen saith Pur. 341. If all Ecclesiasticall foundations should returne to the founders againe because their willes are not fulfilled that then perhaps this wiued newe Cleargie might be driuen to serue in a reformed French barne his zeale is so great that he can not hold but You iest saith he like a scornfull caitife of those holy assemblees of Gods childrē in Fraunce Pur. 203.205 Infra ca. 12. num So likewise by name for Caluin other his masters let vs a litle behold his impacience D. Allen toucheth Caluine for denying all communion betwéene Christes members that are in this life and in the next For this Fulke saith vnto him You haue a pleasure to spue out your pestilent poyson against that noble light of Gods Church M. Caluine Againe where he noteth his strange doctrine about Christes discending into hell Fulke answereth Pur. 61.63 Infra ca. 1 pag. He vttereth his spite against Caluine he spitteth out agaynst him moste impudent slaunders raylings and lyes not satisfying him selfe with the voyce of a man he hath borowed the tong of the diuell him selfe Whose doctrine God him selfe the Angels and all the worlde doth know and testifie to be directly contrary to these slaunders And straight after But because he woulde not be thought to haue spued out all his poyson agaynst Caluine he goulpeth vp another bowlefull of rayling slaundering against our Bishops who haue not onely suffered but also commended Caluines bookes to be read and studied of the simple Curates affirming that they do priuily set forth by books that which they dare not openly preach All this and more of like sorte he hath there and yet saith in the very same place that he doth somewhat moderate his corrupt affections Also in an other place Pur. 45. Without all shame or shew of truth most impudently he faineth a contrarietie betwene Melancthon and Caluine O brasen face and yron forehead With litle zeale he saith for another Pur. 147.89 Whatsoeuer M. Iewel hath affirmed against the Papistes he hath substantially and learnedly defended Againe As for that reuerend father M. Iewel whom this arrogant Louanist calleth the English bragger how well he hath answered his chalenge his owne learned labors do more clearly testifie vnto the world then that it can be blemished by this sycophantes brainlesse babling In déede he hath so well quitted him selfe that the very reading of his answere hath turned many earnest Protestantes into earnest Catholikes as both by the numbers
scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
antiquarie saith against antiquitie of whom also for so saying Pamelius a farre better antiquarie then he saith thus Quod quà m sinistrè detorqueat Rhenanus ad dies natalitios Ethnicorum nemo ignorare debet c. Rhenanus turneth this place of Tertullian from the right meaning very vntowardly to the byrthdayes of the Gentiles Howbeit in my iudgement Rhenanus there might be better construed not to say that the oblations of Christians were euer for their owne birthdayes but that vpon the byrthdayes of the Martyrs which the Church did celebrate with the solemne oblations of the Altar many of the people kept drunken feasting as the Gentiles did euery one vpon his proper byrthday Which drunken vtas the Church was fayne to tolerate for a time but afterwarde the Canons of the Nicene Councell and others following did forbid it and chaunge it into almes If you could shewe those Canons we might be more certayne of his meaning Playne it is that he speaketh very confusely of birthdayes And playne agayne it is that suche rioting was vsed of some in Paulinus whom he there citeth and S. Augustines times long after the Nicene Councell See Rhenâ— himselfe 〈◊〉 Tert. ad Mâ—tyres num â— And agayne most sure it is that the Church alwayes from the beginning hath vsed and no Councell euer did forbid the kéeping of the Martyrs birth-dayes with oblations of the Altar Finally Rhenanus in those annotations is full of scapes ouersightes and noted accordingly by the learned of this time very much though no yll meaning Beeres to cary home the Corpses One error more you charge vs withall about the dead touching their bodies as the former were touching their soules Ar. 22. George the Arian Bishop of Alexandria inuented Beres to cary dead corpses charging all men to vse them for his owne aduauntage as do you Papistes your Bearing clothes and other toyes for funerall pompes Epiph. li. 3. tom 1. haer 76. Epiphanius doth not say that George inuented Beres but that he deuised to haue them in a certayne number His wordes are these to shewe the miserable couetousnes of that man No trade almost so base no thing so meane whereof he sought not gayne For so muche as Beres for the dead he deuised to make the number of theÌ„ certayn without those that he ordeined no corps of the dead specially of strangers was buried non propter hospitalitatem not for any charitie towards strangers but as I haue said for lucres sake For if any buried a corps otherwise he came in daunger Now if this or the like miserablenes be in any Bishop of ours or yours eyther to racke his people or to vsurpe the liuing of his Cleargie what is that agaynst Béeres or Bearing clothes or comely pompe of funerals or against the Church that vseth them specially your selfe also commending in your Geneua Church Pur. 22â— suche Ceremonies as are conuenient for the reuerent laying vp of the Corps vnlesse you thinke it much for the Church to reape their Carnalia to whom she soweth Spiritualia or would prouide for your selfe a Béere Bearing clothes against you shal be buried 1. Cor. 9 rather then to pay the common duties to your parish Church Thus haue I folowed you through all the errors common to vs with the auncient true Church taken as you saye of the Gentiles or of Heretikes but as I haue playnly shewed not any one of them so nor so What more you haue of them belongeth to the eyght and ninth Chapters where I haue promised to answere all your testimonies out of Scripture and others about any matter to day in controuersie and thither I referre the Reader for the last error also about the Popes Superioritie hauing nothing here to be answered because though you say that the auncient Church had that error also yet you do not say that it tooke it of the Gentiles or of any Heretikes The second part Concerning the errors that he layed Cap. 4. to the Fathers and not to vs. j. Touching the heresies which were in their times Now followeth the second sort of the Churches errors that is those errors which you lay to the auncient true Church and not to vs also To answere you therevnto likewise and that very briefly What a thing is this that you charge the Church in the Apostles time with the heresies that were in the Apostles times And the same Church agayne in the thrée Arian Emperors time with the heresie of Arius As if a man would charge the same Church now that is our Romane Church with your heresies For you say Ar. 15 35. Dem. 45.46 not only Pope Liberius of whom I must answere in the tenth Chapter but the true Church was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And you bring in the heresies of the Apostles time to declare that euen then the Church decayed counting it also all one to erre and to decay And yet of your owne imagined Church that in the time of Pope Bonifacius the third fled into the wildernes you can say thus Where she hath not decayed Ar. 16.15 Infra ca. 11 cont 31. but bene alwayes preserued D. Allen notwithstanding when he saith that the Church alwayes stoode still and stedfast whilest all other Congregations as Arrians c. haue decayed must be controlled and tolde of the persecutions vntill the time of Constantine and of great detriment vnder Iulianus the Apostata and of a great Eclipse vnder the barbarous Gothes c. Besides the foresaid infection vnder the thrée Arrian Emperors If amid those persecutions and heresies it had not bene alwaies preserued then you might haue said that it had decayed You shew wel that hell gates haue fought sore against it but you shewe not that they haue at any time preuailed Yea the truth is in my Booke of Demaundes in the second Demaund you haue it that the Churche alwayes preuailed according to Christes promise and predictions and that so cléerely and so gloriously that both the persecuting Romane Emperours gaue ouer at length their obstinacie and vaine kicking against the pricke submitting themselues to the very same Church which afore they persecuted yea moreouer continuing Christians euen to this day and also all heresies Arrians and others vanished quite away neither the persecutions being ought els in effect but an occasion of innumerable Martyrs the commodities of whom we heard a little Supra 55. Greg. â—ral li. 9 7. before out of S. Augustine nor againe the heresies ought els but an occasion of so many most worthy Doctors both Gréeke Latine and their most excellent writinges at which to this day all the later heretikes doe quake and tremble by which to this day the Catholike Church alwayes conquereth and triumpheth ij Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus Which Doctors if any of them haue erred in some thing or other yet this is notable that not so much as in their errors or
your selfe also will graunt supposing once the text to be as the Councell alleageth it And therfore of your two crimes you must strike out the one to wit false or vnapt interpretation and then all is about the other wherein you say no lesse then foure times that the Councell hath falsified the words of that text And what reason yea what colour haue you for that Is it not in the vulgar Latin translation verbatim as the Councell alleageth it And so is the Councell cleared of that crime also Will you now charge your copie and frame your accusation anew agaynst the translation as differing from the original that is from the Greke But afore you do so take my counsaile with you and be sure first that the Greke is so as you say For some Greke copies Cyr. ◠Ioan. Au. i◠10. tr◠Hila. li. 7. p◠medi◠Amb◠Spi. S◠li. 3. c◠of auncient also had euen as we haue as namely the copie which S. Cyrill being a Greke Doctor expoundeth And who can doubt but the copie also of our most auncient yea and most authentical Translator had euen as he translated Which also the most auncient Latine Doctors as S. Augustine by name S. Ambrose yea and S. Hilarie too did reade iump as we do And the Latines a) vi◠Amb◠Rom◠by reason should in this matter be better witnesses then the Grekes specially séeing such varietie among the Grekes also them selues for as much as the Arrians neuer raigned so nothing like in the Latine Church as they did in the Greke where they were to cancell to chaunge to corrupt what they would And so are you answered fully in euery side nor you only but Ioachim also him selfe if he would go about to make his vantage as you instruct him One text more corrupted by our Church as he sayth and then an ende These be his words Ar. 7◠How corrupt that Latine translation is which they would needes thrust vpon vs is sufficiently knowen to all learned men euen in such textes as are the most colourable places for the defence of Popishe doctrine I will giue one example for all They alleage the texte 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat He that standeth let him take heede he fall not agaynst the certaintie of fayth Whereas the Greke hath not He that standeth Stande out of his light that the child may see but He that thinketh he standeth let him take heede he fall not Why man looke better in the text 1. Cor. 10. our translation is there not as you charge it but euen as you say the Greke to be Qui se existimat stare videat ne cadat And yet you inferre saying Thus the Popishe Church can not altogether excuse her selfe from corrupting the text of the Testament whether it was of fraude or of ignorance or of negligence the Lord knoweth This is your goodly substantiall stuffe that you haue against the Popish Church which maye séeme you well amongest the blinde that will néedes follow such blinde guides But vs that haue eyes how can you alienate from it with such geare yea could you more confirme vs in our liking of it then after this sort to bewray your selues that you haue no matter no substance yea no shadow of any thing agaynst it Well in the name of God bethinke your selues in time and humble your selues to your louing Mother this one onely Church of God In olde time it was the true Church as your selfe confesse and therefore if you had liued then you would not haue spurned agaynst it you would haue bene a good childe of it yea also though you thought it to erre How much more considering now you sée that it erred not as you thought it did Proue therefore that your heart meaneth as your tongue speaketh Proue it I say by yéelding to the same Church now which you see nowe no lesse yea muche more cleared from all errors in this answere to eche error that you haue charged it withall Or at leastwise let all other men as they loue their soules forethinke thē selues and ponder wel whether these obiections are like to be admitted of their Iudge the head husband of this Church for good pleas in that generall and most terrible Court day ¶ The seuenth Chapter That he hath no other shift agaynst our manifold Euidences so cleare they be but the name of Only Scripture as well about ech controuersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe And how timerous he maketh vs and how bolde he beareth him selfe herevpon WHat shamefull confessions he hath bene fayne to make agaynst his owne side and for our side it hath here many ways in sundry chapters appeared already But the same will now againe appeare much more clerely if in this Chapter we runne ouer the cōmon Euidences of Christian truth out of which I framed my declaration in my bookes of Motiues and Demaundes and consider that he is fayne to confesse them al to be against him and therfore to take exception agaynst them and say that neither they nor any thing els that can be brought foorth is good euidence in such suites but Scripture alone and such Scripture also as is so playne and manifest for the matter that it can not by any subtiltie be auoyded of the aduersarie For he knoweth well pardy that we bring foorth not other euidences alone but Scripture also with them But the others he séeth to be so playne that there is no remedie vnlesse they be cancelled Mary from our Scriptures he hath an euasion as he thinketh to wrangle and say that they be not playne and euident for vs but so that he can wrest thē to an other meaning The first part How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidences in the controuersies that are betwene vs. j. Against the rule to know heresie c. Well then let vs heare him speake in his owne words and first how he maketh his exception being charged many wayes with the crime of heresie Notable it is both to the confirmation of the Catholike and also to the conuersion of the Heretike to beholde how the more that he fluttereth to get out the more he wrappeth him selfe in the lime Ar. 44. First Authors As in my fourth demaund old heresies demaunde xxxviij Whereas you bragge saith he to D. Allen to note vnto vs euery one of our Capitaines by their names and the seuerall errors that they taught and the time and yere when they arose agaynst the former receiued truth Except you note vnto vs the Patriarkes Prophetes Apostles Euangelistes and Christ him self you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise For we teach nothing but the eternall truth of God Wherfore we refuse not to be counted heretikes if you can proue that we holde any one article of faith contrarie to the Scripture And immediatly You may perchaunce note the names of them that preaching the truth of our
of God if you can You shall not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in It chaufeth him that we shew so plaine an euidence against his side he can not shew the like against vs and therefore he is faine to flie againe to his cold exception of onely Scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not ynough But most ridiculous of all it is to sée him come in with this exception where D. Allen alleaged TertulliaÌ„ for this rule Pur. 4 Ar. 42 That doctrine saith Fulke which is first agreable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But how shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught Tert. 〈…〉 praesc Tertullian there hath an other rule against such heresies as presumed Inserere se aetati Apostolicae To say that their founders liued in the Apostles time But this our rule he giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluin c. bidding vs then to coÌ„sider what was taught beléeued immediatly before they arose for the vndoubtedly is the truth and their later doctrine is falshood Now then how ridiculous is it for Fulke to run from Tertullians meaning yet to pretend that he agréeth to Tertullians Rule The same rule with an amplification also Antiq … Dem. in the same meaning doth likewise VinceÌ„tius LirineÌ„sis geue to wit If any Noueltie arise at any time yea preuaile so much afterward in processe of time as to make an vniuersall corruption so that almost no countrey of Christendome be frée froÌ„ it as this marchant boasteth at this day of the most of Europe EnglaÌ„d Scotland Ireland Ar. 3. Infra Dem. 〈…〉 FrauÌ„ce Germany Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia a great number also in Spaine Italy that then we looke vnto Antiquitie that is to the time before such noueltie preuailed before it arose as what was taught beléeued immediatly before Luther beganne these innouations And therefore alike ridiculous it is that he saieth We refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis Pur. 3â—… concerning Antiquitie so you can proue that it hath God to be the Author the Prophetes and Apostles As for witnesses vnder this antiquitie we passe not for them Why man The rule that you receaue proueth it The Apostles I say to be the Authors of our solemne prayer for the dead in the holy Masse and of any other such article because it hath such antiquitie as I haue now said and as Vincentius meant And so much vpoÌ„ the Rule of finding out the first authors of any doctrine and the same therefore to be hereticall or not finding them and the same therefore to be Apostolicall Whither is to be referred that Rule also of D. Allens that such as commonly by Christian people be named Heretikes Names dem 7.8 alwayes proue in the ende to be heretikes in deede notwithstanding their craking of Gods word Wherevnto Fulkes exception is the selfe same againe saying Ar. 65. The true Christians at this day being of the Papistes which after a sort are named Christians called heretikes and in reproche Protestantes and Caluinistes in that their faith agreeth with the word of God proue themselues in deede to be true Christians and no heretikes ij Against the Apostles Traditions TraditioÌ„s Dem. 29. Pur. 362. Now let vs heare how he maketh his saide exception also against the Traditions of the Apostles Thus he speaketh M. Allen referreth the institution of Prayer and Sacrifice for the dead to the tradition of the Apostles Of whom will he be afeard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemie vpon the Apostles Soft man be good to D. Allen for their sakes that followe For you your selfe goe forward in the same place and say But who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more This you could not and therfore doe not deny but come in with your stale exception saying But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes I would learne why the Lorde woulde not haue this doubtlesse institution plainely or at leastwise obscurely set forth by Mathew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the storie of the institution of the Sacrament If it were not meete at all to bee put in writyng why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Pur. 387. Augustine c Likewise in an other place If prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges If I were disposed to pose you this question woulde make you clawe your poll a hundred tymes before you coulde imagine any collourable aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make In déede a doughtie question it is As though if a Christian can not answer euery why of the Infidel our Religion therfore is straight in hazard Ar. 48. It may trouble a wise maÌ„ to answer al the questions that a foole caÌ„ propound you say your self And yet neither you nor any other Infidell shall euer finde the learned to séeke It is for your religion to be to séeke of answers because it began but yesterday and is neither yet throughly shaped But the Catholike which is the only Christian Religion comming of God so many hundred yeres sithence continuing hath bene by our forefathers and the holy Ghost so sifted to our hands that the answere is alwayes ready afore the question be demaunded Briefly therfore S. Augustine one of our Masters and Doctors in Christ hath taught vs if we be posed about the Churches order in Baptisme to answere Au. dâ— op that Serie Traditionis scimus By the course of tradition we know what things are to be done therein although they be not expressed in the Scriptures and that for breuities sake So likewise being posed about the order of this other SacrameÌ„t to answere Quia multum erat c. Au. Eâ— ad Iaâ— cap. 6 Because it was much for the Apostle to signifie in his Epistle to the Corinthians the whole order of the action that the vniuersall Church through all the world obserued therefore hauing saide somewhat of the same Sacrament yea and as much as all the Euangelistes by and by he added And when I come 1. Cor I will prescribe the rest of the orders Vnde intelligi datur saith S. Augustine And thereby we may vnderstand that whatsoeuer is not varied in any varietie of vsages was of his prescribing This is our answere and you knew it partly before For you say I know the Papistes will flye to those words of the Apostle Pur. 3â— The rest I will set in order when I come And good reason S. Augustine teacheth vs so to do And what say you to him for it
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
and sure for their persons and not one of them but he was thankes be to God throughly satisfied by our conference and namely by séeing and hearing our foresaid dayly reading and examination of the Scriptures Which béeing by D. Allen our President his order vsed amongst vs who can doubt but he exhorteth men to reade the Scriptures them specially that vnderstande Latin much more thē S. Bedes historie And namely the Acts of the Apostles what booke do I his scholler more often vse in my Motiues and Demaundes then that And touching a Catholike trāslation of the Scriptures you shew your selfe to know litle God wotteth what is D. Allens desire and minde therein But all men may assure them selues that any thing lacketh therevnto rather then good will and feruent zeale specially because we sée it translated already by Catholikes into al other languages almost and because we know sundry cōmodities that might ensue thereof namely because we lament to see so many soules to dye in the most holsome waters beeing turned into deadly bitternes by your Starre Absinthin Apoc. 8. your blindnes withall being suche that leauing both the authenticall Gréeke of the Septuaginta which the Apostles and Primitiue Church did vse and also the authenticall Latin which the Church hath vsed so many hundred yeres in some part euen from the beginning almost you haue serued our countrey with the olde Testament of the late obstinate Iewes vowelling diuiding and reading it being of it selfe but one verse in the whole Psalter and ech other particular booke onely consonantes and to be read according to the tradition of the faithfull which tradition we know by our authenticall translations and not of the incredulous and perfidious No no whensoeuer we should make if we were in case and place a Catholike translation and send the copies in they should be in no lesse daunger of your searchers and fyres then our other bookes haue bene and are euery day more and more but yet that daunger should not stay vs if nothing els did knowing that such a translation will confound you ten thousande times more then all the other bookes haue done Last of all if none of my former requestes can finde place with you at the least wise you shal haue here in the Chapter folowing an answere to all your Scriptures hither vnto alleaged in both your bookes to chaw vpon for a while And then tell your Reader when as you haue here renounced all other euidences so he shall sée that you are no lesse destitute of Scripture also tell him then I say blaming D. Allen Pur. 364. and saying And yet he wondreth that we are so blinde that we can not see the cleare light of truth And againe in the ende of your booke Pur. 458. In Gods name let the Readers way indifferently and as they see this poynt of the dead handled so let them iudge of the rest The trueth is vpholden by euident testimonie of Scripture the error by custome practise and iudgement of men The truth seeketh vnderstanding of the Scriptures of the spirite of God in the Scriptures error at the mouthes of mortall men Now thē to these euident Scriptures in the name of God and to your diuine vnderstanding of them ¶ The eyght Chapter To shew his vanitie in his foresaide rigorous exacting of playne Scripture and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered AL the Scriptures that he alleageth against vs throughout his two bookes I do sort and distribute into foure partes The first concerning the question of onely Scripture the second concerning the question of the Church the third concerning the question of Purgatorie the fourth concerning al other questions that he mentioneth The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture And as touching the first In the last Chapter we saw how to make exception against all our other euidēces he euermore said that in all matters Onely euident Scripture must be brought and heard confessing those other euidences to be so euident for vs that they can not otherwise be auoyded Now then this béeing his onely refuge how many and how euident Scriptures hath he alleaged for it as you thinke Surely in all his first booke to D. Allens Articles they being altogether our foresaid Euidences he alleageth but one place onely and not many mo neither in his other booke of Purgatorie And what maner of place also thinke you that it is specially considering howe muche he craketh of it as where he saith Thus I haue declared Ar. 11.15 c. that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all Heretikes onely by the Scripture Agayne it hath bene already proued sufficiently Ar. 16. that the true Catholike Church which is ledde only by the worde of God the onely weapon by which heresies are cut downe counting it to be sufficient for that purpose hath ouerthrowen heresies of all sortes And againe Doctrine is to be sought out and tried onely by the Scriptures Ar. 82. as we haue declared at large in the answere to the fourth Article first Demaunde And once againe Ar. 86. As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or cōtention of heresie they must be resolued and determined as it is abundauntly declared before onely by the Scriptures With that place of Scripture he alleaged certayne Fathers as Hilarius Basilius Chrysostome Sainct Augustine Leo the first and the Councell of Constantinople the sixte To whom I must aunswere in the next Chapter Infra pag. But he graunteth pardie that the Fathers authoritie is no warrant to him so to crake as another where also expresly he saith Pur. 383. It is not for confirmation of the trueth that we alleadge the authoritie of the Doctors and olde Councels Then must all these crakes be onely in respect of the Scripture that you there alleaged Let vs therefore nowe heare that Scripture So did Paule ouercome the Iewes Act. 18. that is to say Ar. 11. only by the Scripture That he often disputed against the Iewes prouing Iesus to be Christ I there finde but that his argumentes were none but Scriptures I finde not But reade you Actes .13 and you shall finde that he vsed also other argumentes agaynst them to witte the testimonie of certayne men as of S. Iohn Baptist and of his owne Disciples that sawe him many dayes together after his resurrection qui vsque nunc sunt testes eius ad plebem Who to this day are witnesses for him to the people Reade likewise Act. 4. for the argument of Miracles specially where it is sayde Hominem quoque videntes stantem cum eis qui curatus fierat nihil poterant contradicere Seeing the man also standing with Peter and Iohn whom they had healed the Gouernours of the Iewes were quite put to silence And therefore also if S. Paule had in your place ouercome them
opposed to our argumentes as you oppose it in the last Chapter You might if the Maior were true labour to the purpose I graunt in prouing the Minor But you might not I say for all that make of it an opposition or exception when we make argumentes out of Traditions Councels Fathers c. as in the like I shew vnto you I proue a doctrine vnto you out of the Old Testament you oppose therevnto your negatiue argument and say to me All true doctrine is taught in the New Testament for so you do holde and must holde that doctrine is not taught in the New Testament therfore that doctrine is no true doctrine Is this well opposed of you May not I say to you notwithstanding Yea syr but for all that what say you to my place alleaged out of the Old Testament vnlesse you haue any thing against the Old Testament it selfe Euen so vnles you haue any thing directly against Traditions them selues Councels Fathers and suche others our argumentes do preuayle and you in vayne do flée to Only Scripture although all true doctrine were taught in Scripture Now to the second question concerning the Church ¶ The second part Concerning the question of the Church About the Church his contradictions are very many and very palpable as I will declare in the eleuenth Chapter Here I haue to examine what he alleageth first indefinitely That the Church may erre That it may be diuorced That it is a base and contemptible companie That it may and also should become inuisible and then by name That the Protestantes haue the true Church or That the Papistes haue it not j Of the Church indefinitely That the whole Church may erre he alleageth and saith According to the saying of the Scripture Euery man is a lyer Ar. 86. Wherfore the whole Church militant consisting of men which are all lyers may erre altogether Why do you say The church militant Doth not the Church triumphant also consist of men If therefore all men be lyers why may not they also erre No doubt because although all men are lyers of them selues yet some men may notwithstanding by the gifte of God be veraces true And so where you conclude thus vpon vs God onely is not true Pur. 451. for the Pope can not erre you might conclude aswell God onely is not true for the Apostles can not erre Againe you alleage and say The true and only Church of God hath no such priuiledge graunted Ar. 88. but that she may be deceiued in some things For her knowledge is vnperfect her prophecying is vnperfect 1. Cor. 13. Where you her S. Paule saith our including him selfe also in that speache Ex parte enim cognoscimus c. For our knowledge is vnperfect and our prophecying is vnperfect so long as we be in this life whether we speake or write And yet you will not say I trow that S. Paule therefore might be deceiued in his writings and Epistles So then the Churches priuiledge knowledge prophecying may be vnperfect and yet she withall so frée from erring that she may be bolde in her determinations to say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath bene thought good of the holy Ghost and of vs. Againe you say And it is true that S. Augustine saith Euen the whole Church is taught to say euery day Ar 88. Pur. 393. Aug. Retra li. 2. ca. 18. Forgeue vs our trespasses But why so because the whole Church doth erre in her determinations euery day It were ridiculous so to say Why theÌ„ Propter quasdam ignorantias infirmitates membrorum suorum Because of certayne veniall sinnes of her members procéeding of ignorance frayltie saith S. Augustine In which members the Apostles also in their time were and therefore they also accordingly were taught to say euery day Forgeue vs our trespasses and did say accordingly Iac 3. 1. Io. 1. We do all offend in many things And yet I trow they did not erre nor could erre in their Canonicall writinges and determinations This is all that you bring to proue the whole Churche of Christ may erre Though you alleage one other place that the whole Synagogue did erre and yet that also onely in a fact not in a doctrine yea neither the whole Synagogue but a piece onely So that there bee as you see no lesse then three walles as it were betwene the Church and this shotte of yours These are your wordes Pur. 224.456 Dauid transgressed the law of God to carry the Arke vpon a new chariotte which should haue bene borne vpon mens shoulders … y blindnesse 1. Chron. 13. wherin not onely Dauid but so many priests and Leuites so good a Bishop and the whole Generall Councell of Israel did erre So say you but so saith not the texte yea it vtterly confoundeth both you and all these prophane innouations made by your ley heades and Parliamentes Dauid tooke counsaile saith the texte with his Tribunes and Centurions 1. Par. 13. 1â—… and all his Nobles He did not so much as consulte no not with the inferiour sorte of the Priestes but onelie If you please quoth he to his temporall Lordes and if the motion be of God let vs sende to the rest of our brethern in all the lande of Israel and to the priestes and Leuites in their Suburbes as you woulde saie the hedge Priestes that they gather vnto vs and we fetche agayne to vs the Arke of God And so they beganne in suche maner as you reporte vntill God killed Oza the Leuite in the procession and so made Dauid afraide to carrie it any further But three monethes after hauing found his error he gathered not onelie all Israel into Ierusalem but also filios Aaron Sadoc et Abiathar Sacerdotes The Successors of Aaron Sadoc and Abiathar the high priestes Leuitas and the Leuites with the heades of them being these six Vriel Asaias Ioel Semeias Eliel and Aminadab These two Bishops and these sixe Archedeacons that I may so tearme them he called and saide vnto them You that are the heades of the Leuiticall families prepare your selues together with your brethren and bring the Arke of our Lorde God of Israel to the place whiche is dressed for it least that as before because you were not present our Lorde did smite vs so nowe also it happen for our vnlawfull doing A notable ensample for all Princes and for al nobles to remember how they haue offended and to amende it accordingly and all A maiori in euery respect aboue the highest degree One more of your places I thinke good here to examine though you bring it not to proue that the Church may erre but onely to answere a place that we bring for the contrary Ar. 86. The true and onely Church of Christ you say can neuer be voide of Gods spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceaued in some thinges euen as
there is no true Christian man that is voyde of Gods spirite for he that hath not the spirite of Christ is none of his Rom. 8. yet may euery true Christian erre and be deceaued in some thinges This your sophisme consisteth in speaking confusely of Gods spirite as though the gifte of it were alwayes but one whereas it is one in the whole Church and another in euery particular true Christian man For neither do we argue simply of Gods spirite but of Gods spirite so as it is the spirite of trueth and of all trueth Ioan. 14. My Father sayth our Comforter at the instante of his departure will giue you another Comforter to remayne with you for euer the Spirite of trueth And after in the same Sermon I haue yet many thinges to saye vnto you but you can not now carry them but when the Spirite of trueth commeth he will teache you all trueth This place we saye must néedes be vnderstoode of the whole Churche 1. Tim. 3. and of a gifte conuenient to make her as she is saide to be the Piller of trueth because it is euident that euery one member of the Churche by him selfe may erre and in that case néedeth no more but the Spirite of obedience to heare her whiche hath suche a Spirite or gifte that she can not erre And this is ynough to make that no damnation be by erring to them that are in Iesus Christ that is which haue his spirite Rom. 8. so that sayth he they walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite and namely in this case after this spirite of obedience as I haue said Thus muche by occasion though my purpose is not here neither to alleage places nor to defende the alleaged but onely to answere the enemies allegations Now that the Church may be diuorced his allegation is this The visible Church Ar 79. by Idolatrie and superstition may seperate her selfe from Christ and be refused of him as God speaketh by Esay to the Church of Ierusalem Cap. 1. How is the faythfull Citie become an harlot It was full of iudgement and iustice lodged therein but now they are murtherers Thy siluer is become drosse and thy wine is mixed with water Thy princes are rebellious and companions of théeues c. Euen so may he say to the Church of Rome May he forsooth but whether doth he say so vnto it or doth the Prophet say that he may you are too too ignorant in the Scriptures if you know not the difference herein betwene the Synagoge of the Iewes the Church of Christ to wit that the Synagoge with her Ierusalem might be should be diuorced but that the Church of Christ with her Ierusalem which is Rome if you haue any sight in the Actes of the Apostles should neuer nor neuer might nor may be diuorced but contrariwise should beginne in the faythfull Iewes being a very small number in respect and so call in all nations euen Plenitudinem gentium Rom. 11. Mat. 13. The fulnes of al nations fishing for that purpose in the wide Sea of this world continually without any intermission in so much that immediatly after that all Nations or Gentiles be entred in Omnis Israel saluus fiet All the Iewes euen their fulnes also shall be Christned in the end of the world To this place pertaineth this strange imagination of his and his fellowes that euen the Church of Christ it selfe should prepare the way to Antichrist inuenting forsooth or receyuing of others inuention all the superstitions all the errors all the heresies that haue bene or may be euen vnto playne defection Apostasie Whereas the cleane contrarie is most euident and notorious that the Church should and hath as the piller of trueth from time to time accursed and commaunded vs to accurse all the heresies that haue bene yea and with due animaduersion noted vnto vs al errors whatsoeuer of her owne Doctors also who them selues sometime and in some things some of them haue erred as men Therfore against this most certayne cleare truth what alleageth these Heretikes for their most fonde and most absurde imagination aforesaid Diuinitie vvithout Scripture It is the totall summe of all their newe Diuinitie yet no warrant at all haue they for it out of Scripture Ar. 35. Many abuses and corruptions saith Fulke were entred into the Church of Christ immediatly after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist But let vs heare your Scripture for it Ar. 38. The Scripture telleth vs sayth he that the mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the * Generall is your vvâ—rd noâ— S. Paules Generall defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time 2. Thes 2. But doth the Scripture tell you that it wrought in the Church of Christ No word so It wrought in the Persecutors of the Church of Christ and in the sundry Seducers that arose agaynst the doctrine of Christes Church as now it worketh in your Heresie béeing as it shall appeare anone the very next and vltima or at the least penultima Mysticall working before the Reuelation it selfe Next of all what haue you for this that the Church of Christ is always a contemptible companie D. Allens Demaund was Ar. 8â— Let the aduersarie shew that Christes onely kingdome should become so contemptible You alleage certayne places for answere and conclude vpon them saying So that the Church in the sight of the world hath alwayes bene most base and contemptible though in the sight of God and his Saintes 1. Cor. 1. Gal. 6. Rom. 1. most glorious and honorable Alwayes you say but your places import not alwayes Some of them conteine that her Crosse and her Crucifixus are condemned of the world that is of the Infidels But that may be and yet the Church not be in their sight a contemptible companie Euen as we Christians contemne the Turkes Mahometane Religion and the old Romaines Pagane religion for one of their goddes was a goose yet no man I trow will say they were or these are now a base and contemptible coÌ„panie An other of your places is this You shall be hated of all men for my names sake Mat. 10. As though it must néedes be alwayes a base contemptible companie which is hated of all sorts of men or euen then also when it is so hated Doth it séeme vnto you that it was of contempt that the Romane tyrantes so persecuted the Romane Bishops and their Christian flocke so vehemently all the first 300. yeres Cyp. epist 52. n. 3. Haue you not read what S. Cyprian writeth of Decius the Emperour Multo patientius tolerabilius audiebat leuari aduersus se aemulum principem quà m constitui Romae Dei Sacerdotem To heare that an Emperour was set vp against him that sought his Crowne he was much more patient then that in Fabianus place whom he had martyred another should
be ordeined at Rome as the Priest of God And therefore Infestus Sacerdotibus Dei fanda atque infanda comminabatur The Tyrant being mad at the Priests of God for that fact threatned as the Diuell Which he speaketh in excéeding prayse of Cornelius qui sedit intrepidus Romae c. Because he sate boldly at Rome in the priestly Chaire euen at that time Whereby you sée in what dread the tyrantes stoode of the Church though they so hated and so persecuted it Who euer more hated the same Priest and the Church with him then you your selues who at euery worde do blaspheme and call him Antichrist and yet I thinke you will not say that they are haue bene these thousand yeres a base and a contemptible companie Another place you alleage blindly against your selfe saying And S. Paul biddeth vs looke on our calling 1. Cor. 1. not many wise men according to the flesh not many mighty men not many noble men but God hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and the weake of this world to confound the strōg So was the beginning of the Church What ergo always Doth not your text say that the wise also thē selues the strong at length were confounded that is to say conuerted Do you not sée how it foloweth against you If the Church were then a base and contemptible company as you say because it had not many wise mightie noble ergo afterward it was otherwise when it had gotten in also the Princes Kings Emperours of the world and as Esay speaketh Esai 60. The multitude of the Sea the fortitude of the Gentiles Was it then also a contemptible company yea or shall it according to the Scriptures euer after be no verily not so much as in the time or reuelation of Antichrist wherof I shall say more anone In so much that in another place your selfe also alleaging to the cleane contrarie Ar. 73. do say And Esay declareth when the people should be almost all destroyed yet a remnant should be saued which though it semed to be small yet it should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esay 10. But this I must reserue to the Chapter of your grosse contradictions Last of all as concerning the Inuisiblenes of the Church you alleage so as Pur. 450. I thinke no sober man would One while that the vniuersall Church is not seene at all of men So we beleue you say because it is in heauen Gal. 4. Why do you say The vniuersall Church Is not also euery good member of it in heauen as the Apostle saith Our conuersation is in heauen Philip 3. And yet you beléeue not I trow that the Apostle was not séene at all of men Another while you say Ar. 80. It sufficeth that the Church be knowē to Christ the head As he saith My shepe heare my voyce I know them Iohn 10. Adding for all that text immediatly And to them that be of the members of the same body If your text import that it sufficeth to be knowen to the head why do you iumble in the members afterward Chrestes knowing of his shéepe is his louing of them as contrariwise to the goates he will say Mat. 25. I know you not Wherevpon if it folow not necessarily forsooth that the Church may be inuisible I report me to you Another while you alleage that although not alwais yet at one certaine time it should become inuisible to wit at the cōming of Antichrist And what Scriptures haue you for that thus you say It was prophecied that the Church should flye into the wildernes Ar. 27. that is be driuen out of the sight knowledge of the wicked So you expound that text of your owne head Againe Ar. 77. If the Church should stand always in the sight of the world then the defection which S. Paule speaketh of could not haue come neither should the Church flye into the wildernes as was declared to S. Iohn Substantial arguments That defection is your heresie as I shal straightway declare yet notwithstāding the Pope the church standeth at this time in the sight of the world The Church in the time of Antichrist both visible and vniuersall as it hath alwayes done Yea in the time that is to come when your great lord Antichrist shal appeare in person euen then also the Church shal stand stil in the sight of the world as it did in al the former persecutiōs in the first 300. yeres For there shal be preaching al the time of the persecution euen 1260. days Apoc. 11. as the persecution shal last 42. moneths which both cōmeth to three yeres a halfe the preaching shal be as general as the persecutiō to thē that sit vpon the earth Apo. 14. and vpon euery nation tribe language people exhorting thē mightily that they feare not the Beast nor adore him but that they feare the Lord giue honor to him because the honor of his iudgemēt is come As when it is said againe that the persecutors beeing in number as the sand of the sea Apoc. 2◠shall flow ouer the wide world super latitudinem terrae and so compasse the campe of the faithfull and the beloued Citie is it not therby playnly signified that the Church shal at the same time together with her enemies be vniuersall and super latitudinem terrae And therefore her flying then into the wildernes cannot be vnderstood as you expound it that she shal be driuen out of the sight and knowledge of the wicked but the meaning of it is this that she shall then abandon more then euer before all worldly pleasures being content to be turned out of all she hath and neuerthelesse sustayned by Gods prouision and fedde both in body and soule during all the time of that straite necessitie Apoc. 12. to wit 1260. dayes ij Namely of their Church and of ours by conference of places that are about Antichrist And so hauing answered all that you alleage about the Church indefinitely I am now come to that you alleage of your Church and of our Church by name Which is nothing in effect but only your owne fonde and voluntary applying of the two textes laste rehearsed whither the spirite of your error moued you That neither Antichrist nor the Apostasie agreeth to Bonifacius the third Of the Churches fleing into the vvildernes For so you said in the second Chapter that the Religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled An. Dom. 607. when Boniface the third for a great summe of money first obteined of Phocas the Emperour his Antichristian exaltation that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Churche And now we shall heare what Scripture warranteth you so to say Ar 16. When Antichrist the Pope in the West seduced the worlde with most detestable heresie then was
places of the Old Law saying Pur. 455. What law was appoynted touching lamenting for the dead you may reade Leuit. 21. how the Priest was forbidden to lament for any but speciall persons Also Num. 19. Diuerse ordinances concerning the dead yet neuer any sacrifice or prayer for the dead With like reason you might conclude vpon the same places that the dead should not be buried because in these places no mention is made thereof and againe of sundrie other places Leuit. 15. where the people are bidde to keepe them selues warily from diuerse contaminations of them selues by towching certaine persons aliue that therefore in the same places they are forbidden to pray for the saide persons aliue and namely during the cause of such contamination as for a man or woman whose séede or flowers runneth You suppose ignorantly that in those places orders are giuen what shall be done for the dead but it is not so onely it is decréed that whosoeuer entreth the tabernacle or house of him that is there departed shal be contaminate or vncleane after the Mosaicall maner and that the high priest shall not enter to any such at all nor other priests but to certayne What maketh this agaynst doing ought for the soule of the dead in other places and specially in the holy place As when againe you say Pur. 456. When Nadab and Abihu were slayne their father and brethren were forbidden to mourne for them the people were permitted By all which it appeareth that no Sacrifice for the dead was offered As though holy Sacrificing were as vnfit for the Priest as prophane mourning And as though this speciall case were a generall rule whereas Leuit. 21. it is expresly said to the Priestes that they may be contaminated which with you is mourning vpon their brother notwithstanding that for the plague of their two brethren Nadab and Abihu they might not in some maner mourne From the particuler places of the Law I come now with you to the whole Law thus according to your good Logike you conclude negatiuely therevpon Pur. 455. All lawfull sacrifices were prescribed by the Law Sacrifice for the dead was not prescribed by the Law Therfore it was no lawfull Sacrifice A séely argument was made by Grindall which D. Allen there returneth vpon him and in this fourme here rehearsed you go about to better it The answere still is Infra ca. 12. num as it was before by returning it vpon your selfe All lawfull Sacrifices to wit these foure in generall Holocaustum pro peccato hostia oblatio as the Psalmist and the Apostle do gather the summe were prescribed by the Law Sacrifice for the dead is one of those foure to wit pro peccato for sinne Therfore Sacrifice for the dead was prescribed by the law To this you would make a reply and therefore you correct your Maior with an addition and say that not onely all lawfull Sacrifices were prescribed by the law but also with peculiar mentioning and playne rehearsing of all such persons for whom Sacrifice was to be offered both men women the princes and the priuate persons the priest and the whole congregation yea and speciall regard of the oblations of the poore as may be seene Leuit 4.5.12.15 But because all these persons are founde in the dead as well as in the liuing your addition reacheth yet farther saying And in the peculiar rehearsing of diuers kind of persons and the fourme of the Sacrifice named according to euery particular state it is so farre off that the dead shall be reckned that such things are enioyned euery of these particular persons to do as it is playne that none but the liuing could offer or haue Sacrifice offered for them And in confidence of this addition Iesu how you befoole D. Allen And yet it conteineth this grosse absurditie which you saw not that none could offer or haue Sacrifice offered for them but onely such as were both liuing and also present in the place yea also able to do by thē selues those things enioyned and moreouer that none might offer for their friendes or for any other but for them selues only And what place is then left for offering for their children for the sicke at home for their brethren in other countreys captiue or pilgrimes for the kings and cities of the world vncircumcised for diuers other sortes for which there was offering as partly in other places is expressed partly may easily be proued And therefore all this adoe concludeth nothing against Sacrifice for the dead although it coulde not be proued much lesse considering that it is in an other place so playnly expressed For the fact of Iudas Machabeus putteth all out of doubt say we though you say that he therein transgressed the law But your proofe thereof is yet to be made vnlesse this proue it that you say It is like that Iudas Machabeus Pur. 456. if he deuised not that Sacrifice of his owne head yet tooke by imitation of the Gentiles whose studies and practises the Author of that Storie confesseth were more frequented in those dayes among the Iewes then the preaching or keeping of the Law Why syr doth the Storie say that Iudas Macabeus was one of those gentilicall Iewes or that he ioyned with those Apostaticall priestes Yea doth it not plainely say that all his fighting was against the gentiles and against gentilizing and that he made his reformation by no Priestes but such as were Vnspotted in the law But of your ignorance in that Storie if no worse I must speake more in another place Infra ca. 12. Now to ende this part Let vs heare how you conclude of the whole Scripture Pur. 449. As it is no good Logike you say to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture this is not conteined in it therefore it is not true as you haue hithervnto concluded So of the whole the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine O inuincible argument The Maior is false and to all your textes for it I haue answered aboue Ca. isto p. 1 The Minor likewise is false for Purgatory is taught in the Machabees which is in the Canon of the true Church which you also confesse to be the true Church you knowe the (a) Infra pag. third Councell of Carthage and therefore it is Canonicall if any other Scripture be Canonicall It is taught likewise 1. Iohn 5. so playnely that you could not auoyde the place but by falling into this horrible absurditie That we may not pray for all men liuing as anone I shall report your wordes It is also taught specially agaynst you Syr Ioan. 11. for you say after your maner passing confidently Pur. 236. that Martha and Mary as the Scripture is manifest did not hope for any restitution of their brother Lazarus to his
liberal where penance is vnperfect as where it is full Nor yet to say as you do in the same place I thinke M. Allen is angry with Christ that he did not send the penitent thefe into Purgatory but euen that day promised to be with him in Paradise You rather might be angry with that peniteÌ„t for thinking it inough if he might be remembred when Christ should come in his kingdome though in the meane time he did among such as he abide for his sinnes in another place But to thinke that D. Allen would be angry with Christ our high priest for geuing a pardon and that a plenary how could you knowing that the Vicar of Christ gâ—uing a plenary offendeth him not for the mercifull iustice of God in which he gouerneth vs that are his family is as throughly answered by Christ our Lord when by him selfe or by his Ministers he giueth vs full pardon as when he giueth vs full penance And in this I haue at once answered your like obiecting to D. Allen in another place Pur. 64. that He will not suffer God to shewe mercy vpon whom he will shew mercy Rom. 9. without his blasphemous and enuious murmuring I haue tolde you where God will shew full mercy comparing his elect and iust together howbeit that sentence is not in comparison of them among them selues but comparing them with the reprobate to witte where he séeth full penance or full pardon by Christ If you can proue that he will shew as full mercy also where he findeth not that fulnes of Christes grace then call vs hardly enemies for not suffering God to shew mercy vpon whom he will Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another The fourth and last foundation concerneth the reliefe of them in Purgatory and it is this that within the Church or body of Christ one member may helpe another by vertue of the Communion of Saintes Against this Fulke saith Pur. 198. Infra ca. 12. I haue learned in the Scripture that ther is no name giuen vnder heauen by which they may be helped which are not helped by Christes death Act. 4. Who doubteth of that But syr haue you learned in the Scripture that they which are helped by the death of Christ can not through his grace helpe and be holpen one of another Surely I learne in the Scripture that as the rich of this world may helpe the poore with their substance so the rich in good works may spiritually helpe the poore of that kinde 2. Cor. 8. Let your abundance in this present time saith the Apostle to the wealthy Corinthians supply their the poore Hebrews lacke Act. 2.4 that also their abundance spirituall as in the Actes it is passing singular may supplye your lacke But at the least Pur. 199. It is not possible that other mens works aliue shoulde profit them that are dead you say And why so For as much as without Faith it is not possible to please God Heb. 13. That is most true as you and all other Heretikes shall one day finde it Therfore without faith it is not possible that they should profite them Be it so What then We aliue and our brethren in Purgatory both haue faith Yea but D. Allen graunteth that they which are in Purgatory can not by any motion of mind attayne more mercy then their life past deserued That is true Therfore their faith profiteth them nothing for that is a notable motion of the mind And what more Then the merites of other men must profite without faith Two yron coÌ„clusions Although by their faith they can not attayne mercy or profite them selues yet by their faith they are in case to be profited by the prayers works of their fellow members aliue And so are these two yron barres at once broken with so little a doe Example of a childe new borne without life it were not possible to féede him nor to baptize him and though he be aliue he can not procure himselfe foode nor baptisme yet because he is aliue he is in case to be holpen by others thervnto Fulkes common argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christes Passion Infra ca. 12. Now remaineth in this parte but onely your common argument of Christes Passion by it you thinke to ouerthrowe the foundations that stand euen vpon it such is your folly D. Allen in his booke reported the said argument of yours in these words Their extreme and onely refuge is that the payne of Christes passion Pur. 152. and his sufficient payment for our sinnes standeth not with our satisfaction or penance in this life nor with payne or Purgatory in the next Wherevnto he there answereth as the Reader may sée the effect is that an Origenist or one worse then an Origenist might likewise say The passion of Christ because it is omnisufficient standeth not with hell neither But a Catholike would answere him and the Protestantes at once that we must not consider only the omnisufficiencie of it but rather the wil of Christ that suffered it whether he would haue it to workâ— vpon all and euery where because it is omnisufficient or onely vpon his members within his Church and vpon them also whether alwayes and straightwayes to the very full and without all working of any thing or person with it or rather by degrées and proportions by meanes and instrumentes Which being considered all Fulkes allegations will be quickly answered And first whether it folow because it is so sufficient that therefore it worketh alwayes at full If any man sinne after baptisme saith he Pur. 45. 1. Ioh. 2. alleaging S. Iohn Iesus Christ is our aduocate with the father and propitiation for our sinnes That is true But that in playing the aduocate for sinnes after baptisme he requesteth the like and equall grace as he did in baptisme for sinnes afore baptisme where haue you that Pur. 95. 1. Io. 1. In another place you alleage that the bloud of Christ doth purge vs from all our sinnes It is taken out of the same place and hath the same answere to wit that his bloud doth worke more graciously in the Sacrament of baptisme then in the Sacrament of penance And being washed by him we are throughly cleane Ioh. 13. So you alleage immediatly in the same place adding also So that although our sinnes were as redde as skarlet they are made as white as snowe Esay 1. These two places are euident of baptisme reade the text and therefore wée admitte willingly that which you infer there saying Then being throughly purged washed and clensed as white as snow we are made capable without delay of the heauenly inheritance the fruitioÌ„ of eternal glory Neuerthelesse I must put you in minde that your former place Iohn 13. truely alleaged were thus He that is washed in baptisme nedeth not but to wash his fete that is his venial sinnes which he committeth afterwarde although he continue withall in the cleannes of
wide way and the narrow way Mat. 7. If there be but two wayes in this life you say there are but two abiding places after this life In the wide way of breaking Gods commaundementes some go wider then some with infinite varietie yet al in the wide way and these after death go to damnation namely their soules and straight to damnation because they haue nothing to stay thē out of it so much as a minute of an houre In the narrow way of keping Gods cōmaundements some go narrower then some with infinite varietie likewise yet all in the narrow way and these after death go to life though not straight in body none of them neither in soule also many of them because they haue somewhat to stay them out of it for a time to wit temporall debt of veniall sinne also of mortal sinne forgiuen but the due penance not fully payed nor fully pardoned And so you sée that the two wayes of this life stande well ynough with Purgatorie Pur. 436.444 Againe you alleage that it is written of the Iudgement 2. Cor. 5. we shall all stand before the Iudgement seate of Christ to receiue ech of vs the own of his body according as he did either good or euill Not D. Allen but as he alleageth S. Augustine Aug. Ench. cap. 100. Dion Ec. Hier. ca. 7. as also S. Dionisius Areopagita answereth that the Churches praying for the dead is nothing repugnant herevnto because the dead in our Lord in his life deserued that these workes after his death might be profitable vnto him And to this answer you haue no reply to mainteine that Scripture against such prayer Onely you oppose a saying of S. Hierom very fondly as in the next chap. I wil shew Once againe you reason of the Iudgement If Purgatory be so necessary to satisfie Gods iustice by temporall paynes of sinners Pur. 85. according to the time c. and Purgatory shal cease at the day of Iudgement as you affirme out of Augustine how shall the same be satisfied in such as dye immediatly before the day of Iudgement so that they haue not had time inough ther to be sufficiently purged The like may be demaunded of all them which in a moment shal be changed from mortalitie to immortalitie at the very comming of Iesus Christ to Iudgement These questions M. Allen will trouble your head to answere and retayne your former principles Two doughtie questions Where did D. Allen set downe that principle that Purgatory is necessary to satisfie according to the time I finde where he saith Pur. 44. If any debt or recompence remayne to be discharged by the offender after his reconcilement it must needes rise by proportion weight continuance number and quantitie of the faultes cōmitted before Wherby it must of necessity be induced that bicause euery man can not haue time to repay all in his life that there is all or some parte answerable in the world to come Here we haue continuannce of the faultes and time of his life but time of Purgatory that you haue to tell vs where you had it The truth is that a shorte time in Purgatorie will so pay the sinner that it had bene better for him to spende much longer time in penance as in this life also a litle while in fire passeth I trow the payne of longer time in fasting c. Neither is it hard for god to punish one in the shortest time as gréeuously as an other in 1000. yeres Nor again repugnant to his mercy to remit suche punishment at the request of his glorious Saints which is S. Augustines answere to your obiection as he nowe doth to the like for the Churches prayers Aug. de Ci. li. 21. ca. 24.27 Lo what a hard thing it was to answere your Demaundes Whether Faith Hope and Gods Will may stande with Purgatory After these two assaylings of Purgatory by going straight to heauen and by the iudgement there remayneth your third last assault Pur. 421. wherein you say to vs We learne by Scripture that your doctrine is contrary to the faith and hope of Christians And how shew you that Pur. 382. If it be against the hope of Christians to mourne for the dead much more it is against the faith and hope of Christians to pray for them For by our prayer we suppose them to be in miserie whom the word of God doth testifie to be in happines to be at rest to be with Christ Io. 17. Apoc. 14. Neither those Scriptures nor any other by you alleaged as I haue shewed do testifie that all straight after death be so and therefore to suppose some of them to be in miserie and so to pray for them is not proued to be against the worde of God Neither to mourne for some yea and for all is saide to be against Hope I would haue you knowe that they shal rise againe saith the Apostle to the end that you mourne not for them 1. Thes 4. sicut et ceteri qui spem non habent in such sorte as others that haue not hope of their Resurrection So then there is one maner of mourning without hope and there is another maner of mourning with hope and such is our mourneing with prayer When Christ praied for his own Resurrection Psal 15. Act. 2. did that argue him to be voide of hope or rather to haue hope When also we all pray for the generall Resurrection Thy kingdome come and mourne and grone for the dilation do we against hope doe we not rather most manifestly declare oure hope thereby Moreouer you saye there To that which is required of the expresse worde of God forbidding prayers for the dead we answere that all places of the Scripture that forbid prayers without faith forbid prayers for the dead For faith is not euery mans vayne perswasion but an assurance out of the word of God Which because we can not haue in praying for the dead therefore we are forbidden to pray for them This argument supposeth Cap. eodē part 1. that the word of God is onely Scripture which you can not proue as in the one place here aboue I haue declared Againe it supposeth that prayer for the dead is not assured by Scripture which besides the most expresse place of the Machabées and diuers others now shall another euident place control euen the same place that you alleage against vs. Thus you say Pur. 281. We learne out of Gods word that whatsoeuer we do pray for according to Gods wil we shal obteine 1. Io. 5. Therefore this one Hatchet shall cut a sunder al Prayers for the dead are not according to the wil of God and therefore they are not heard at all I denie the Minor you haue not nor can not proue it Yea I say further It is agaynst that which the Apostle there both intēdeth and expresseth to wit that we should pray for our brethren after they be dead if
Catholikes as none can be more and some of their suffering in Englande for the Catholike faith in prison in yrons and that after the most terrible and most cruell manner doth most gloriously declare ¶ The ninth Chapter To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he aleageth are examined answered The first parte Of his Doctours generally j His chalenging words THat out of the old Doctours Church is no saluation that they make with vs in many things against the Protestants I declared in the thrée first Chapters by Fulkes owne confession Now to declare further that they be wholly ours with the * Aug. sic inuocat Cyprianum de Bapt. con Don. lib. 5. ca. 17. li. 7. cap. 1. Pur. 432. Pur. 383. helpe of their prayers I will defende that in nothing they make for the Protestants against vs because he saith vnto D. Allen speaking of the auncient Doctors and Councels Among whom as we will not denie but you haue some patrons of some of your errors so will we affirme that you haue more enemies in the greatest Againe The Papistes offer to stand to their iudgement in all thinges and yet in most thinges yea in the chiefest pointes of religion they are contrarie to the Doctors and old Councels Againe Brag of them as much as thou wilt Pur. 406. thou shalt neuer be able to proue that of 20. errours which thou defendest Rusticus es Corridon they did hold one If they haue spoken otherwise then trueth in any matter they must be * In the zeale of the Scribes against Christ. told of it as well as other men But thou must not think that for one error common with them thou must hold an hundred cōtrarie to them He saith in most things and Pur. 238. in an hundred for one Yea more then that in another place It may be a shame to you Papists saith he to leaue condemne for heresy all that is true in those mens writings and agreable to the Scripture and to make such vaunt for a few superstitious ceremonies Pur. 407. and vncincere opinions And againe Nay M. Allen though those Doctors buyld some hay or stouble vpon the only foundation Christ their case is ten thousande times better then yours which buyld nothing but dirt and dung tempered with hay and stuble vpon no foundation at all and seeke by all meanes to digge vp the onely true foundation of our faith Iesus Christ making him nothing better then a common person except his bare name Ar. 60. And once againe more particularly The other writers of later yeres he spoke before of Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus we are not afraide to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead and diuers superstitious and superfluous Ceremonies But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian religion and the foundation of our faith that is for the honor of God the offices of Christ Redemption iustification satisfaction the fruites of Christ his passion Grace faith workes authoritie of Gods word authoritie of the Pope Real presence Transubstantiation Communion in both kinds Images c. the most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. are vtterly against you and therefore can not be of your Church Lo this he saith of our differing from the Doctors First touching the number of the poyntes to wit in most things in many hundreds yea in all that is true in their writings and secondly touching the weight of the poyntes to wit in the greatest and chiefest euen about God and Christ him selfe with those other that he named ij A generall answere to his chalenge declaring that we neede not to answere his Doctors particularly Wherein I thinke Reader whatsoeuer thou art thou doest of thy selfe abhorre the mouth which so filthily runneth ouer and therfore desirest not that I take the payns which I haue promised to ioyne with him in this Chapter vpon the Doctors As also other good causes there are why I might spare that labour Pur. 383 432. First because speaking of the old Doctors and old Councels and the most auncient primatiue Church he saith Pur. 383.432 For which cause that is because the Papistes do offer to stand to their iudgement in al things and not for Confirmation of truth we alleage the authoritie of men we stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures In which saying as he agréeth well with himselfe aboue in the seuenth Chapter where he did set at nought all but onely Scripture so I hauing in the laste Chapter answeared all his Scriptures haue by this his owne iudgement fully satisfied him although I meddle not at all with his Doctors vnlesse he require me to spende time onely to mainteine their honor whiche make the forsaid offer being otherwise as he here saith nothing to the matter which is the Confirmation of trueth Againe because he himselfe for me doth answere all his owne Doctors if it be rightly considered See cap. 5. in the end in that he confesseth them to haue helde with vs the very same pointes for the which we must be condemned no remedie as differing from the Doctors in the greatest pointes For why doth he saye that wée are against the honor of God and against the Offices of Christ but because wée hold Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes But the Doctors held the same he confesseth both here Sup. cap. 3. part 2. Sup. cap. 7. par 1. in Traditions and more amply in the 3. chapter Why doth he say that we are against the authoritie of Gods word but because we hold with Traditions But the Doctors held with the same he confesseth in the 7. Chapter And so forth in the residue of those great pointes as may easily be deduced in like maner or at the least so proued that he shal be faine to cōfesse as much In somuch that of one of those points he saith thus expresly I confesse with M. Allen Pur. 156. that the old writers not onely knew but also haue expressed the valew of our redemption by Christ in such wordes as it is not possible that the Popish Satisfaction can stande with them And yet on the other side sée what followeth immediatly Against the valew of which Redemption saith he if they haue vttered any thing by the word of Satisfaction or any thing els we may lawfully reiecte their authoritie not only though they be Doctors of the Church but also if they were Angels frō heauen So that nowe we no more néede to defend against him that we are not contrarie to the Doctors in such great poyntes then that the Doctors are not contrarie to them selues in the same as also that
that be Canonical but among others being Apocryphal Cuius authoritas c. The authoritie of which boke is thought lesse fit to confirme those things that come into contention betwéene the Hebrewes no doubt and vs. But notwithstanding the Hebrues counting it Apocryphal the Nicene Councell as we reade hath reckned this booke in the number of the Holy Scriptures As also S. Augustine distinguisheth saying Aug. de Ci. dei li. 18. ca 36 The supputation of the times after Esdras to Aristobulus is not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in others among which others are also the bookes of the Machabees which though the Iewes do not yet the Church counteth for Canonicall By all which it is playne that S. Hierome meaneth not as the Protestantes do when he saith that the Church receiueth not the bookes of Iudith Tobias and the Machabees among the Canonicall Scriptures For him selfe saith that the booke of Iudith is Canonicall by the Councell of Nice but only as I haue saide he instructeth the Christians béeing ignorant in the Hebrue tongue what bookes they should vse against the Iewes for which cause he also addressed his new Translation of the olde Testament out of the Hebrew as in many places he protesteth Hie. Apol. ad Ruff. and that the Church in Canonizing those other bookes meant not for all that that they should be vsed agaynst the Iewes who receiue them not and therfore would but laugh at vs for our labour Howbeit also if S. Hierome did saye in the Protestantes sense that the Churche then receyued not those bookes neither in her owne Canon that maketh nothing for the Protestantes For we graunt the time was when the Church did not generally receiue some of those bookes To make for the Protestantes he should haue saide that the Church and not only any priuate person neither did then nor ought afterwardes to receiue them Pur. 216. Where now is Fulke that saith Hieronym doth simply refuse these bookes of the Machabées Agayne Hieronym saith the Church receiueth them not for Canonicall Pur. 386. Yea moreouer I haue by the consent of the Catholike Church aunswered them And agayne of Tobias booke Pur. 215.230 I haue shewed by authoritie of Hieronym which is proofe sufficient agaynst the Papist that the Church receiueth not this booke of Tobias for Canonicall Scripture All this you saye but I haue shewed that not so muche as Hierome him selfe maketh with you though also if he did Supra pa. 1. eodem cap. that is not proofe sufficient agaynst vs as I haue tolde you playne inough before that it is onely the consent of the Doctours to whiche we attribute infallibilitie and the scope that of confidence of our cause we geue you to bring one Doctour if you can is not in these bymatters but in our principall controuersies And this much of the Canonicall Scriptures though it be somwhat besides my limites Whervnto yet I must néedes adde the place where you say thus Pur. 218. If Martyn Luther and Illyricus haue sometimes doubted of S. Iames Epistle they are not the first that doubted of it Eusebius sayth playnely it is a counterfeite Epistle lib. 2. cap. 23. and yet he was not accounted an heretike I say not this to excuse them that doubt of it for I am perswaded they are more curious then wise in so doing Do you make it but curiositie to doubt of that Scripture which your selfe also confesse to be Canonicall Howbeit Luther not onely doubted of it but also vtterly reiected it euen with as great courage as you haue here reiected the second of the Machabées and that also after the consent of the whole Church Is this no worse then Eusebius his fault before the Churches declaration O worthy estimation of Canonicall Scripture What matter will not you license them of your side to doubt of without note of Heresie when you dare so do in that which with you is the greatest And yet also to shewe what a marchaunt you are A falsarie Eusebius saith not as you charge him but the cleane contrarie Eu. li. 2. c. 22 His wordes are these Of Iames I reade so muche By whom the first of the Epistles which are named Catholicae is saide to be written But this one thing I maye not omit that although of some it is taken for a counterfeite because no suche number of the auncient writers maketh any mention at all of it as neither of that which is saide to be the Epistle of Iude which also is sette in the number of the seuen Epistles Catholicall Tamen nos istas cum reliquis in quamplurimis Ecclesijs publicè receptas approbatasque cognouimus Yet we haue founde these with the residue to be publikely receiued and approued in very many Churches ij About onely Scripture Next vnto this I take in hande the question of Onely Scripture thinking better to deferre the rest touching Purgatorie to the end of the chapter dispatching also all other questions before because they be shorter Howe he ascribed all authoritie to Onely Scripture and nothing to ought els we heard in the seuenth chapter If the Doctors be not of their ovvn side they be on â—ulks side Now he will beare the ignorant in hande that the Doctors were of the same opinion yet confessing withall that they helde the contrarie no lesse then we doo as partly in that same chapter we saw partly here agayne we shall sée And therefore in this question agayne as in others afore it is no more agaynst vs then agaynst those Doctours them selues whatsoeuer he wresteth oute of their writings Cyprian would haue nothing done in the celebration of the Lords supper namely in ministring of the cup Pur. 287. but that Christ him selfe did li. 2. Epist 3. I answere he writeth there contra Aquarios against them that offered in the Chalice water onely whereas Christ offered wine That he calleth aliud quà m quod pro nobis dominus prior fecit An other thing then that which Christ did first for vs as being cleane against Christes doing and such a doing as he did for a tradition to vs. But otherwise to mingle the wine with water S. Cyprian there requireth and that also by Christes tradition and therfore he buildeth not vpon onely Scripture as you in alleaging him séeme to pretend Pur. 303. Now for an other Doctor where Chrysostome sayth It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy Mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed we will be bold to charge him with his owne saying And there you alleage foure places out of him against him selfe as it were for onely Scripture Is not this pretie shewing of the Doctors to be of your side And what are these places of S. Chrysostome First IdeÌ„ Ar. 69. Hom. de Adam et Heua Satis sufficere c. We thinke it suffiseth enough whatsoeuer
you alleage there is no mention at all of Scripture but onely of preaching and teaching Likewise S. Hillarius most expresly auoucheth euery where the authoritie of the Nicene Councell against the Arrians and yet you pretend that he would haue heresies against the Trinitie Ar. 11. Hilar. li. 4. de Trin. to be confuted not by mens iudgement but by Gods word You marke well what he doeth in that place How heresies must be confuted is not his purpose but to answere the Scriptures that the Heretikes abused and misconstrued which he there had recited at large therefore he saith Cessent propriae hominum opiniones neque se vltra diuinam constitutionem humana iudicia extendant Let mens proper opinions cease neither let the iudgementes or fancies of men stretche them selues beyonde Gods limite Therefore against these prophane and impious institutions or Catechismes of God let vs followe the selfe-same authorities of Gods sayinges which they alleage in their owne false sense restoring euery one of them to his true meaning Which there consequently he doth A goodly testimonie for your purpose The saying of S. Basill is in euery mans mouth Basi de spi Sanc. ca. 27 that the Doctrines preached in the Church we haue them partely by writing partely by the Apostles Tradition without writinge And if we go about to reiect suche vnwritten customes we shall vnawares condemne the Gospell also Imo ipsam fidei predicationem ad nudum nomen contrahemus yea wee shall bring the verye preaching of our faith to a bare name And you your selfe doe note it as a greate matter that by his confession here Pur. 380. the wordes of Inuocation when the Blessed Sacrament is shewed are not taughte by the Scripture no more then many other ceremonies that he rehearseth in the same place And yet must he also beare you witnesse against himselfe for Only Scripture Ar. 11. Basi de vera side in prooem Moraliū Well what saith he In his treatise of faith We know that we must now and alwayes auoyde euery worde and opinion that is differing from the doctrine of our Lord. I say the same But it is not all one to be differing from our Lords doctrine and not to be expressed in Scripture In so muche that he alloweth wel of those words in speaking of the Trinitie Quae apud Sanctos viros in vsu fuisse reperirentur Which had bene vsed of the holy fathers although they were not in Scripture Basi in Regulis breu Interrog 1. Two sayings more of his you alleage In his short definitions to the first interrogation Whether it be lawfull or profitable for a man to permit vnto him selfe to do or say any thing which he thinketh to be good without testimonie of the holy Scriptures He answereth For as much as our Sauiour Christ saith that the Holy ghost shall not speake of him selfe what madnes is it that any man should presume to beleue any thing without the authoritie of Gods word If you saw the place your malice passeth The words are these Quis esse tanta vesania c. Who can be so madde that he dare so much as to thinke any thing of himselfe And it followeth But because of those things and words that are in vse amongst vs some are playnly taught in the holy Scripture some are omitted Concerning them that are written they must precisely be so obserued and concerning them that are omitted we haue this rule To be subiect to other men for Gods commaundement renouncing quite our owne willes Which he saith because he writeth there to Monkes who vow obedience to their Superiours Basil Mor. Reg. 26. c. 1. Agayne In his Morals Dist 26. Euery word or deede must be confirmed by the testimonie of holy Scripture for the perswasion of good men and the confusion of wicked men He there admonisheth his Monkes béeing studentes of Diuinitie to be so perfect in the Scriptures that they may haue a text ready at euery néede so as Christ had to repel the diuels temptation Mat. 4. and Peter to answere the Iewes scoffe Act. 2. And we desire the same in so much as when you bid vs cast all away that is not written we haue this text ready where S. Paul biddeth vs the contrarie To hold the Traditions which we haue learned whether it be by his Scripture or by his word of mouth 2. Thes 2. Last of all we haue to sée what you alleage likewise out of S. Augustine for your onely Scripture Augustine For you play with his nose also as you haue done with his fellowes the foresaid Doctors confessing that he is for vnwritten Traditions and suche other authorities as we stand vpon and yet alleaging him for Onely Scripture Your confession I haue reported at large in the seuenth chapter as for example where you say Augustine blindly defendeth in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda Pur. 349. and else where the cōmon error of his time of prayer for the dead which by holy Scripture he was not able to mainteine contrarie to his owne rule of only Scripture in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes and the heresie of the Pelagians Well then how do you shew out of Augustine against Augustine him selfe that this was his rule You make your shew in thrée partes Ar. 12. Pur. 383.405.368.451 First you quote onely without recitall of any words eleuen or twelue places out of him In which he preferreth the authoritie of the Canonicall Scripture before all writings of Catholike Doctors of Bishops of Councels before all customes and traditions So you gather of those places But that is not the question Which is to be preferred but this Whether nothing but Scripture be of authoritie And touching the preferment also recite the wordes when you will and it will appeare playnly that he neither preferreth the Scripture otherwise then we do Your second part is about this one question Ar. 12. Who haue the true Church Of whiche question you saye that S. Augustine would haue the Church fought only in the Scriptures Reade my first Demaund and you shall sée what S. Augustine would haue in that question and that I would haue the same to wit that you answere the Scriptures that he alleageth for his Church and for ours together and that you bring one text for the visible Churches perishing after a time or vanishing out of sight and one text that one Luther or one Caluine should after so many hundred yeres restore it againe This is the summe of al. In dede he is content in that question to set aside all other authorities so to draw the Donatists who drew backe al that they could standing vpon other things impertinent to try it by the Scriptures But that nothing els is good authoritie in that question that he neuer saith You allenge him De 〈◊〉 Ecclesia cap. 2. where he saith and the like cap. 3.5.6 The question betwene vs and
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of
places Nowe what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse he thinke he hath any vauntage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it Decrees Yea doth it not make against him most inuincibly as all the rest also that S. Augustine hath written against the Donatistes for his Church ours that is for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence spreding ouer all Nations to the very last time euen in the same maner altogether as it had done to S. Augustines time iij About certaine Traditions Vpon this question of Onely Scripture I haue stood long because Onely Scripture Onely faith are with the Protestantes all in all howbeit they haue neither Scripture nor Faith Now to dispatche other questions very briefly agaynst certayne Traditions Fulke alleageth saying Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great Antiquarie affirmeth that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels which he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon Tradition of the Apostles were abrogated As touching oblations pro Natalitijs I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Cap. 6. par 1. v. But as for abrogation of any other Traditions Rhenanus hath neuer a word iiij About the mariage of Votaries For the mariage of such as haue vowed virginitie Ar. 45. Pur. 22.23 you alleage one place of Epiphanius thrise another of S. Hieromes twise and all about a matter that we hold euen as they did Thus you saye Epiphanius Hpiph li. 2 Haer. 61. although he count it an offence to marrie after their vowe therein he is with vs you know yet he saith speaking of such as secretly liue in fornication sub specie solitudinis aut continentiae vnder the colour of vowed singlenes or continencie It is better to marrie then to burne that first is not in Epiphanius Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere non plura It is better to haue one sinne rather then many It is better for him that is fallen from his course wherein he beganne to runne for the Crowne of Virginitie openly to take a wyfe according to the lawe a virginitate multo tempore poenitentiam agere and a long time to repent to do penaunce for breaking that vowe of his virginitie and so hauing done his full penaunce to be brought agayne into the Churche out of the which he was caste as an excommunicate person for breaking his vow as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken and hauing neede to be bound rather then to be wounded dayly with priuie dartes of that wickednesse whiche the diuell putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preach Haec sunt sanationis medicamenta These are the medicines of healing Whereof you gather and say that Epiphanius calleth marriage of suche men an holsome medicine contrarie to that you confesse your selfe that he calleth it a sinne for so doth the Apostles Tradition saith he vnlesse perhaps you thinke Sinne to be an holsome medicine No syr the holsome medicins are his long penance and his reconcilement to the Church againe But at the least say you Epiphanius alloweth marriage in them whereas the Popish Church did separate them from their wiues in queene Maries time After a solemne vow which is made but only two ways by taking holy orders by professing some common approued rule of Religion to marrie is * Chry. ep 6 ad Theod. MonachuÌ„ lapsum Basil lib. de virginitate no mariage and therevpon it is that no Doctor can be alleaged which alloweth it for mariage if Priests or such professed Monkes and Nunnes do marrie But the sole vow of virginitie and of widowhood is none of those two and therfore but a simple vow and therefore to marrie after it although it be a great mortall sinne yet the mariage holdeth So saith Epiphanius and so say we as some widowes in England hauing taken the mantle and the ring and marrying afterwards can beare vs witnesse whose mariage we haue allowed of though they may not vse it so fréely without iust dispensation as other maried Folke and as their husbandes may because of their vow and cured them by penance reconciliation altogether as Epiphanius here witnesseth of the Church in his time Hie. ad Demetriad tom 1. So is it likewise of the simple vow of virginitie that S. Hierome speaketh saying The name of certayne virgins which behaue them selues not well doth slaunder the holy purpose of virgins and the glory of the heauenly and angelike familie To whoÌ„ must be playnly said vt aut nubant that either they marrie if they can not conteine or els conteine suing to God to giue them strength if they will not marrie We say the same to the same and generally to all others which of two sinnes wil nedes commit one counsayling them rather to commit the lesser then the greater As for example to say that they will come to your schismatical and Heretical seruice when the Commissioners require no more rather then to come vnto it in déede not omitting to tell them withal that they should neither so much as say they wil come because that also is a sinne and a mortall sinne as Epiphanius told those virgins that their mariage also is sinne v. About the Real presence and Transubstantiation About the blessed viuificall Sacrament of the Altar you alleage one Doctor against the Real presence and thrée others agaynst Transubstantiation Pur. 326. It was not the beleefe of S. Augustine nor of any other in that time you say that the Sacrament is the naturall body and bloud of Christ As though it were the mysticall body of Christ which is his Church Vnlesse you finde more then these two his naturall body and his mysticall body Or as though it were not his naturall body which was the morow after his Supper to dye for vs and his naturall bloud which was to be shedde for vs. When will you euer admit any text for plaine and euident Scripture standing so obstinately against these most cléere woords of Christ This is my Body that is geuen and broken for you Luc. 22.1 Cor 11. This is my bloud Mat. 26. Mar. 14. that is shedde for you and for many Luc. 22. Mat. 26. Mar. 14. And what a grosse blindnes is this considering the infinit difference betwene bread and Christ to thinke that being in S. Augustines time taken for bread it could afterward in all Christendome be taken for Christ himselfe and that without all contradiction wheras also at this time you the Sacramentaries could not chaunge the doctrine of it from Christ to bread but heauen and earth cryeth out against you for it not the Catholikes alone but also the Lutherans But S. Augustine forsooth saith Pur. 3â—8 Non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis c. I will recite the whole circumstance that the world may sée your dealing Aug. in Ps 98. I finde
a sacrifice or no and how it is or is not we nede not stand here about it As also because he doth not say that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs as you pretend but he speaketh of external sacrifice the definition wherof you may conceiue by that litle which I said cap. 6. pag. 49. and of one certaine externall sacrifice We offer the sacrifice to the one God Aug. de ci li. 8. ca. 27. That prayer to Saintes is not a sacrifice to Saintes who is both the Martyrs God ours At which sacrifice they be named in their place and order In so much that by this one Sacrifice he answereth the Paganes touching certaine dishes of meate brought by some Chrystians to the Martyrs churches euen as I answere you touching prayer made to them Non autem ista esse c. But that these be not sacrifices to the Martyrs he knoweth that knoweth the One Sacrifice of the Christians which is there offered to God Those Christians do meane no more but to haue them there sanctified by the merites of the Martyrs in the name of the Lorde of the Martyrs Let the third example be of ceremonies generally suche as he confesseth here cap. 3. pag. 15. to haue bene in the primitiue church also And two obiections of his against them I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 45. But now he will reproue them out of Scripture also first by his vsual argumeÌ„t ab authoritate negatiue Ar. 19. Because they are destitute of God his word which only is able to giue theÌ„ strength and estimation And yet in other places cleane contrary not only Scripture but also example of the Primitiue church is sufficient for them as where he saith Ar. 21.42 If any thing be allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either procede from the Scripture of God or froÌ„ the Primitiue Church Ar. 48. Iust Apol. 2. or els it is a thing meerely indifferent And to this purpose he citeth Iustinus Martyr who declareth playnly he saith what order of seruice and ministration of Sacramentes our Church vsed before Papistrie preuayled As though the booke or books of seruice were no more then these few lines in Iustinus And yet also to sée the blindnesse of this maÌ„ so litle as he bringeth out of that Martyr yet is there plaine against his CommunioÌ„ booke Water mingled with wine But no one word against the Masse booke yea it is the very suÌ„me of the Masse vnlesse you be so foolish to thinke that the Bishops sermon the Receauing of all present the Carying of it to them that be absent and the Rich mens offering may not be omitted in any Masse nor for any cause Now let vs here against Ceremonies Ar. 19. your authorities of Scripture affirmatiuely We detest and abhorre all your beggarly Ceremonies which you count holy and solemne obseruations For we know that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirite and veritie Ioa. 4. Then belike you detest all Ceremonies and all outward thinges those also of the Primitiue Church yea and of the Scripture it selfe which erewhile you allowed You saw this reply and therefore in another place you would moderate the matter saying The seruice of God hath small neede of furniture Ar. 51. in outward things For God beeing a spirite is not worshipped with outward Pompe but with spirituall and inward reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessarie was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors Notwithstanding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted then since Like one that will not hold his peace and yet cannot tell what to say If Gods being a spirite admitteth some outward furniture well ynough then haue you missensed that text The meaning is that outward thinges without the inward man please not God But for all that the inward man may vse outward gestures outward wordes and other outward thinges as Christ him selfe his Apostles and all the Church euer did For so to do is to adore God who is a spirit in spirit truth And touching the other text that you alleage not but allude vnto those weake beggerly elemeÌ„tes Gal. 4. are the Ceremonies of the old law specially after the death of Christ whom they shadowed and much more the Galathians being Gentiles to whom they neuer parteyned and you wrest it against the Ceremonies that are vsed in the administration of the gracious Sacramentes of Christ and that by the order of them that could say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs. Like as agaynst the Lessons Responses Versicles and suche other distinctions or varieties in the Seruice you alleage Matth. 15. Ar. 20. In vayne do they worshippe me teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Such is your ignorance in the Scripture by reason of your malice The preceptes of men are those which be of men and not of God as those traditions of the two late Elders Hilleb Sammai béeing partly friuolous as those vayne lotions partly also contrarie to Gods Commaundementes as that of Corban Tit. 1. wherevppon S. Paule biddeth Titus to be earnest wiâ—h the Cretensians that they listen not to Iudaicall fables mandatis hominum and to the preceptes of men that turne away from the trueth Wherevpon the inuentions also of Luther Caluine and all other Heretikes are the preceptes of men and their followers worship they knowe not what Ioan. 4. Pur. 21. and if they be also zelous it is without knowledge Rom. 10. But so are not likewise the preceptes of them to whom our Sauiour saide He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you Luc. 10. despiseth me And therefore S. Paule commaunded them of Syria and Cilicia Act. 15.16 to keepe the preceptes of the Apostles and Priestes that were decréed in the Councell of Hierusalem S. Augustine likewise here cap. 6. pag. 45. embraceth the Ceremonies decréed in Councels of Bishoppes and muche more them that are vsed throughout the whole Churche And you falsifie the Councell of Laodicia when you saye It decreed Conc. Lao ca. 59. that nothing should be song or read in the Churche but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture No Syr that did rather your friende Paulus Samosatenus who reiected the Psalmes and Songs which to the honour of our Lorde Iesus Christ Eus li. 7. c. 24. decantari solent are wont to be song saith Eusebius tanquam recentiores as beeing but lately made and set out by men of late memorie Renewing the Heresie of Artemon agaynst the Godhead of Christe the whiche a certayne Catholike doth there confute long afore ex Hymnis a fidelibus fratribus antiquitus perscriptis concentu quodam Eus li. 5. c. 27. By the Hymnes made of olde in meeter by faythfull brethren He
maketh mention also of a Eus li. 7. ca. 19. the Hymnes of Nepos Theodoretus and Zosomenus of e Theo. lib. 4. ca. 24. Zoso l. 3. ca. 15. the Hymnes of S. Esrem in the feastes of Martyrs and S. Augustine very often of f Aug. retr li. 1. ca. 21. Confes l. 9. ca. 6.7.12 the Hymnes of S. Ambrose The Councell of Laod. doth no more but forbid priuatos vulgares Psalmos priuate and vulgar Psalmes made by simple men to be said in the Church as the g Con. Mil. ca. 12. Con. Cart. 3. ca. 23. Mileuitane Councell also commaundeth that no other prayers or collectes or Masses or prefaces or commendations or handlayings be said in the Church nisi quae a prudentioribus tractatae But such as haue bene examined by some more skilfull or allowed in the Synode least it chaunce something to be made against the faith or by ignoraunce or by negligence Likewise touching lessons the Councel of Laod doth no more but forbyd the Apocryphall Scriptures libros non Canonicos to be read sed solos Canonicos veteris noui Testimenti but the onely Canonicall bookes of the olde and new Testament Con. Cart. 3. ca. 47. Ar. 20. as also the .3 Councell of Carthage decreeth that beside the Canonicall Scriptures nothing be read in the Church vnder name of the diuine Scriptures for which cause both Councelles doth there declare which bookes be Canonicall and the Carthage Councell addeth also that the Martyrs Passions may be read when their anniuersarie dayes be celebrated These examples declare manifestly that you detest in our seruice euen those things which were in the seruice of the Primitiue Churche and all without cause and that it is an horrible blasphemie where you say If you demaund whence your Ceremonies VVhy then do you kepe them novv festiuall dayes feastes and varieties of Seruice did proceede I aunswere plainly out of the bottomlesse pit of Hell For touching dayes also which may be the last example of Fasting and Feasting you confesse cap. 3. pag. 13. and cap. 6. pag. 43. that Aerius and Iouinianus were condemned in the Primitiue Church for Heretikes because they denyed the dayes and merites of Fasting and the Scriptures that you obiect against the Fathers vs for it I haue aunswered cap. 8. pag. 140. to .143 Ar. 20. Likewise you confesse that Festiuall dayes were vsed in the Primitiue Church adding to shewe of what Church you be that they might haue bene omitted without any hurt of Christian Religion wel But they were not kept in honour of the Saints as they are of the Papistes for that is great Idolatrie as also to build Churches in the honor of Saintes but only for the memory of the martyres and other Saintes that their good life might be followed Whether for that onely let S. Augustine be witnesse where he saith The Christian people doth celebrate together the martyres memories with religious solemnitie Aug. cōtra Faust l. 20. ca. 21. Et ad exitandam imitationē et vt meritis eorum consocietur atque orationibus adiuuetur Both to stirre vp imitatiō and to be ioyned in felowship to their merites and holpen with their prayers Was not this to kéepe their memories in their honor also As againe it is manifest not onely by certayne places alleaged before but also in the very words that you alleage de ver Relig. cap. 55. Ar. 20.54 The saints must be honored for imitation not adored for religion Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute We honour the blessed Angels with charitie not with seruice Doth he not here expresly auouch their honoring As for your note that Seruitus is the same that Dulia is contrary to the Papists which will worship them with seruice called Dulia or Seruitus it is but your vnacquayntance in S. Augustines writings Reade De Ciuit. Dei li. 10. ca. 1. Seruitus Latria Latriam quippe nostri vbicunque sanctarum Scripturarum positum est interpretati sunt Seruitutē For whersoeuer in the holy Scriptures in Gréeke is put Latria our Latines haue translated it Seruitus And so you may sée that he vseth Seruitus for Latria not for Dulia as also he vseth Religio for thresceia béeing synonymum to Latreia But saith he speaking of cultus Deitati debitus the worship due to the Godhead Propter quem vno verbo significandū quoniam satis mihi idoneum non occurrit Latinum Greco c. Because to signifie it in one word I finde no Latin word apt ynough neither Religio nor Seruitus although in that booke De vera Relig. he so vsed them being yet but a Lay man I do where it is necessarie vtter my mind by the Greeke word Latria Lo I haue alleaged here no more but as an answere And yet I haue made it manifest that notwithstanding all his obiections yea also by his owne confession the Seruice of the Primitiue Church was ours and not the Protestants defending it also easily against his vaine cauils Ar. 38.40.49 Neither shal he euer be able to shew that any Church Latin or Gréeke Brytish or other had authenticall seruice but it was ours as D. Allen told him before Now as for the Language in which the Seruice is Seruice in Latine that maketh no difference in the Seruice it selfe For praying for the dead is all one whether it be in Latine or in English Yet because he holdeth that it ought to be in the vulgar tongues let vs sée what be his groundes thereof Ar. 49.40 We can easily shew it out of the Scripture so he saith but no word that he alleageth any where But bylike he meaneth the place to the Corinthians by which his fellowes do commonly reiect the Latin Seruice as if it were that miraculous gifte which the Apostle there calleth 1. Cor. 14. Loqui linguis to speake with tongues Which also he doth not reiect but moderate for the varietie of certayne much like to * Pur. 7. some Protestantes that thinke all learning to be the tongues Now if any learned man séeing it is not the seruice that S. Paule there speaketh of thinke yet that one may argue thence at the least a simili Let him consider first that so the maner of the simple Catholikes who praye to them selues priuately in the Latine tongue which they vnderstande not is not condemned but iustified For He that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men but yet to God And he that speaketh in a tongue doth also edifie him selfe in spirite that is in affect For if I pray in a tongue my spirite or affection prayeth though my vnderstanding be without fruite And therefore If thou blesse or giue thankes in spirite thou doest it well But if there be no Interpreter let him be silent in the Churche and speake to him selfe and to God The difference is onely this that those Corinthians receiued immediately of the holy Ghost such prayers
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
speake All is done still as it was in the Primitiue Church with the selfe same authoritie and with the same affection and discretion if the Iudges doe not swarue from the Churches Lawes 43. Succession Motiue 22. Article 8. Consequently in the next Demaund I say that the true Church must be descended by lineall and continuall Succession from the Apostles and that our Church is so descended and that the Protestantes Church is not so descended About this Fulke doth many wayes contradict himselfe as I will shewe in the next Chapter because he can not tell what to say vnto it Yet to helpe him as much as may be and as I doe vse euery where to frame his arguments to his purpose and to bring them into some order He may say two things first that they may haue the true Church although they haue not Succession secondly that we may lacke the true Church although we haue succession To the first he may referre these words of his owne vnto D. Allen Ar. 26. You are neuer able to proue that any suche orderly Succession according to persons and places was promised to the Church that we should shewe you the performance thereof in our Church Whether that can not be proued my first Demaund here will shew which declareth that S. Augustine hath already proued out of the Scriptures for vs that the Churche should beginne at Hierusalem and from thence grow ouer all Nations continually to the worldes ende as also with our eyes we sée that vnto this our time it hath done And euen the place which you goe about to answere proueth it playnly Continuall Succession of persons in the ministerie I say with D. Allen euen vntill Christes comming agayne Ephe. 4. Christus ascendens c. Christ ascending gaue giftes to men some to be Apostles some Euangelistes some Prophets some Pastors and Teachers to the completing of the holy for the worke of ministerie for the building of the body of Christ Donec occurramus omnes c. Vntill we meete all in the vnitie of faith and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God in a perfect man in the measure of the age plenitudinis Christi of the fulnesse of Christ that is Ephe. 1. of his Church He sayth so expresly vntill the finishing of the Church But that you would not sée you thought better to cauill and say The offices of the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes were not appoynted to continue alwayes in the Churche but for a time vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the world Why doe you not say the like of the other two Pastors and Teachers if they at the least were appointed to continue alwayes you sée a Succession of Persons And how can Saint Paules saying be otherwise verifyed vnlesse some of those fiue shoulde alwayes continue if not all as the wordes doe rather import For you séeme to deceyue your selfe by thinking that none are Apostles but the twelue none Euangelistes but the foure none Prophetes but the foretellers of things to come Whereas in déede all the Successors of Saint Peter are Apostles as I noted in the .28 Demaund and also whosoeuer else be the first conuerters of any Nation and all the expounders of the Euangelistes and Prophetes are Euangelistes and Prophets which you will not denie if you haue any skill in vnderstanding the Scriptures No difference being betwéene these offices in the beginning and nowe but onely that then they were giuen by miracle and now by order As touching the second you graunt our Church to haue such continuall Succession and inferre therevpon Ergo it is not the true Church here Cap. 2. Pag. 5. because the true Church should at some time or other be driuen out of sight Wherevnto I haue answered Cap. 8. Pag. 144. shewing that you doe fouly abuse the Scripture to that false conclusion and namely that the time of the Churches flying into the wildernesse is not yet come Againe you argue If it be sufficient Ar. 27. or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeeded in all ages in the Bishops Sees in an outward face of the Church the Greeke Churche is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession What of that but onely this that they therfore may better claime the Churche then you And yet in trueth these Hereticall and Schismaticall Gréekes can no more shew Succession then you For your false Bishops are now in the Sées of C. Pole of B. Bonner of B. Therlebie c. and yet I trowe you will not thereby claime Succession So these later Gréekes haue not Succession but from them onely who beganne this Separation of theirs and their heresies about the H. Ghostes procéeding c. For in Saint Gregories time whiche is ynough they were in vnitie Nam de Constantinopolitana Ecclesia Greg. li. 7. Epist 63. quis eam dubitet Sedi Apostolicae esse subiectam c. For as touching the Churche of Constantinople saieth he who can doubt that it is subiect to the See Apostolike which thing both our most clement Lord the Emperour and our brother Eusebius Bishop of the same Citie doe dayly professe 44. Apostolike Church Motiue 23. Next vnto this I say that it is we not the Protestants which beleue the Apostolike church because we beleue the Romane church which hath the See of the two most glorious Apostles S. Peter S. Paul which was ment by those Fathers who in their Coūcell added to the article of the créede the word Apostolike therby to specify the better the Catholike Church against such heretikes as durst challenge to themselues the Catholike Church but had no colour to challenge the Romane Church namely that Bishop of Rome which sat in the Apostles chaire that is which orderly and canonically succéeded the Apostles For otherwise the Donatistes and some others we know had their mocke bishop at Rome in a corner whom they sent thither out of other countries to lurke there for a stale to their simple people which thing among others might cause the Fathers in their exposition of the Créede to say rather the Apostolike Church then the Romane Church Ar. 96. Vnto this Fulke hath two shiftes First he saith You are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishop at Rome And then where is al your bragges of Apostolike Sea and succession c Sée here cap. 2. pag. 3. how he confesseth that S. Augustine and many other of the Fathers did likewise alleadge against Heretikes the succession of that Apostolike Sée And therfore consider to whom and for whom it is that now he saith And then where is all your bragges c I would not desire a better cause to discredite quite these absurd Protestantes then that they deny S. Peter to haue béen euer at Rome For who knoweth not that all the auncient writers are against them therein
of all the Saintes as you may also sée in the Councell of Trent Another poynt of your great skil is where to supply D. Allens lacke Pur. 12. you bring forsooth the right definition or description of an Heretike and say that an Heretike is a man in the Church c. Wherof what pretie conclusions do folow you may consider as because Papistes be Heretikes with you Ministerlike conclusions of Fulke therefore they be in the Church item Anabaptistes Seruetians c. and of old the Arrians Pelagians c. againe on the contrarie side because these are not nor were not by you in the Church therefore they be not Heretikes It foloweth in your definition That obstinatly mainteineth an opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the Scriptures And then you adde Which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared but condemned for Heretikes We say to you the same of any of vs also But you should haue defined also who is obstinate You bring no Scripture against vs but we answere it clearely much lesse do you proue vs to be obstinate But we bring playne Scriptures against you to proue that also the doctrine of the Apostles Traditions is the doctrine of the Scriptures with very many particular pointes of controuersie expresly against you as namely that neither the Church of Christ should euer flye out of sight much lesse any thing neare the yere 607. nor Antichrist reigne so long as from that time nor the day of Iudgement to be so long after the cōming of Antichrist Againe for the Real presence This is my body and so forth And if you also goe about to answere some of our Scriptures it is no otherwise then the Arrians Pelagians c. did in old time who notwithstanding were obstinate against the truth because they yéelded not neither when the Church had giuen her sentence So do we proue you to be obstinate much more then any because you neither yéeld after sentence and also do hold that the Church hath no such authoritie to end contentions Your ignorance in so wondering at D. Allen for saying that a Christian Scholer should first beléeue and after séeke for vnderstanding I noted before cap. 10. Dem. 34. Of the like ignorance it is where you wonder to heare that the Sacrifice of the Masse is a likenesse of the Sacrifice of Christes death vpon the Crosse and say Pur. 200. that it is contrarie to the whole a See here cap. 10. Dem. 24. scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be now any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come As though we had now no Sacramentes at all Do you not know that all Sacramentes be liknesses of other things as S. Augustine whom your selfe somewhere alleage saith Si enim Sacramenta quandam similitudinem c. Aug. ep 23. Pur. 292. Sup. de 24. For if Sacramentes had not a certayne likenes of those thinges whose Sacramentes they be they should not at al be Sacraments And so you may remember that S. Paule him selfe will haue Baptisme to be a likenes or similitude of Christes death Rom. 6. buriall and resurrection As againe S. Augustine in the foresayd place noteth that it is truely sayed Christum immolari quotidie in Sacramento Christ to be sacrificed euery day in the Sacrament although he were but once sacrificed in seipso in him selfe that is in his owne visible and not sacramentall forme because of the likenes in the Sacrament to that immolation vpon the Crosse For there was visible seperation of his Body and Bloud the one from the other Here is mysticall or sacramentall seperation of the same as the sacramentall wordes doe signifie And therefore this seperation is but like to that if we attende the maner of both and yet it is the very same seperation if we attend the thinges that were and are seperated Which D. Allen vttered very aptly in these few wordes It is the selfe same in another maner Pur. 198.201 Whereunto you say that Euery boye in Oxford can tell him that by Logicke like is not the same An high point D. Allen knew it not How then did he say in another maner Did he not thereby geue you the meaning of that Logicall Principle to wit that like is not the same with the same maner But otherwise what boye hath not heard it sayd of one and the same man being chaunged by age sicknes apparell shauing c. He is like or vnlike him selfe Against so playne a declaration you could not replye and yet you must néedes say something but yet that which neither boy nor man nor your selfe can vnderstand This it is to say It is the selfe same in another maner will not helpe so long as the same respect remaineth Which same respect I pray you for I am not so quicke to vnderstand him who vnderstandeth not him selfe For who can imagine that the very same respect remaineth when the same maner doth not remayne Pur. 20.21 Againe where you attribute that to diuorsement which the Scripture in many places both a Mat. 5. Mar. 10. Luc. 16. ◠Cor. 7. deny to diuorsement and doth b Rom. 7. attribute only to death to wit to make her no wife that was a wife there you vtter your great skill in many matters As in saying that such mariage after diuorsement is dispensed withall by the Pope Item that the Popes Canon Law hath farre many more causes of diuorsement then for adulterie which only Christ alloweth and we Mat. 5. quoth you As though also the Canon Law allow not that onely as a cause of perpetuall diuorse in such sort that if the Adulterer become afterwardes neuer so chast yet the innocent cannot be compelled to receaue him againe But otherwise if the mans furie be such that the wife in his house is in continuall feare daunger of her life doe not you also allow her to dwell away from him vntill such time as his amendment doe appeare sufficiently Item you speake there as though Moyses iudiciall Law ought to be still obserued Leu. 20. We wish that adulterers were punished as God commaunded in his Law it followeth and then the other question of Mariages were soone answered As though the man were punished by death if he sinned against his wife with a single woman If not how then is the question of his wiues Mariage with another resolued by his punishment Such is your skill in the Law I note here your ignorance but I mislike not your moderation in saying we wish Why then doe I charge you with such an opinion of that Law For this that you there charge the Catholikes to allow dispensation for such persons to marrie as the Law of God and nature abhorreth What Law of God doe you meane but Leui. 18 Doe you thinke then that Law to binde Christians and that so straightly as neyther to
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon
a fourefolde offer is made vnto him ¶ Chapter 8. To shew his vanitie in his forsaid rigorous exacting of playne Scriptures and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture The second part Concerning the question of the Church 1. Indefinitely Whether the whole Church may erre Whether she may be diuorced Whether she it is that should prepare the way to Antichrist Whether she be alwayes a base companie Whether it be alwayes inuisible yea or so much as then when Antichrist commeth 2. Namely of their Church and of ours Certaine places cōferred diligently together concerning the Defection and Antichrist The third part Concerning the question of Purgatorie 1. Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè that is by the Scriptures authoritie negatiuely 2. Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmitiuè First about certaine foundations of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead The distinction of veniall and mortall sinne Whether after sinne remitted paine may remaine Whether Purgatorie follow thereupon Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another His cōmon argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō It is omnisufficient ergo it worketh alwayes to the full It is omnisufficient ergo nothing worketh with it Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe prayer for the dead Whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Or at the least since Christes comming Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatorie Whether faith hope and Gods will The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth About Good workes 1. In generall Whether they do iustifie Whether we haue Freewill 2. In speciall Of prayer Prayer to Saintes Of Fasting About the Sacramentes 1. In generall Whether they be but two Whether they do confer grace 2. In speciall Baptisme the necessitie and effect of it Eucharist Real presence Transubstantiation Mariage of Votaries Of Bishops Priests and Deacons ¶ Chapter 9. To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Of his Doctors generally 1. His chalenging wordes 2. A generall answer to his challenge declaring that we neede not to answer his Doctors particularly 3. I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. 1. About Antichrist and Babylon 2. About Onely faith 3. About Purgatorie Touching Scripture expounded against it Touching Scriptures for it Whether they say no Scripture to make for it Of certaine perticular textes Secondly whether they geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. 1. About the Bookes of Machabees Whether somewhat also of other controuersed Scriptures specially 2. About Onely Scripture Where of S. Augustine threefoldly alleaged 3. About certaine Traditions 4. About the Mariage of Votaries 5. About the Real presence And Transubstantiation 6. About the Sacrament of penance Absolution Temporall debt remaining after Absolution Satisfaction Pardons 7. Of Purgatorie Of the Canonicall Memento of oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church Of particular Doctors VVhether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatorie Or denied it Other Doctors about praying for the dead Whether it be onely for Veniall sinnes 8. Of Limbus patrum ¶ Chapter 10. That notwithstanding al which he hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie Euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues likewise euery one of those Articles stādeth in his force euery one I say and much more all of thē to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant 1 Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures 2 Building of the Church amid persecution 3 Going out of the Church 4 Rising after the beginning of the Church 5 Cōtradicted of the Church 6 This name Catholikes 7 This name Heretikes 8 This name Protestantes 9 Cōuersion of heathē Natiōs 11 Our Britannie 10.12 Miracles Visions 13.15 Honor of Crosses and Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and Saintes 17 Exorcismes 18 Destroying of Idolatrie 19 Kings and Emperours 20 In all persecutions 21 Churches 22 Seruice 23 Apish imitation 24 Priesthood and Sacrifice 25 Monkes 26 Fathers 27 Councels 28 See Apostolike 29 Traditions 30 Their owne Doctors 31 Vniuersalitie 32 Antiquitie 33 Consent 34 Authoritie 35 Vnitie 36 Owners and kepers of the Scriptures 37 Stoare house of all truth 38 Old Heresies 39 In old Heretikes Onely 40 They neuer afore now 41 Studying al truth 42 Vnsent 43 Succession 44 Apostolike Church 45 Chaunging 46 Our Auncetors saued theirs damned 47 Communion of Saintes 48 By their fruites 49 All enimies 50 Sure to continue 51 Apostasie ¶ Chapter 11. What grosse contradictions Fulke is fayne to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof ¶ Chapter 12. A Nosegay of certayne strange flowers piked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handyworke ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie
Scriptures and declare in their writinges that by them they are to be confuted for examples sake of a great number I will alleage a fewe and he alleageth Hilarius Basilius Magnus Chrysostome Augustine Leo the first Bishop of Rome and the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt And so concludeth saying Thus I haue declared by ensample and authoritie of these fathers that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all heretikes onely by the Scripture If onely by the scriptures See cap. 9. par 2. pag. Ar. 52. so much the better you doe like of her and that in this Chapter nothing misliketh me Now let vs see what he confesseth of the auncient Monkes also The Church of God saith he hath alwayes had Scholes or Vniuersities for the maintenance of godly learning for the first colledges of Monkes in solitarie places were nothing els but Colledges of studentes that were afterward as occasion serued taken to serue in the Church as appeareth by Chrisostom in his booke de Sacerdotio where he sheweth that Basilius who was a Monke with him was taken by violence and made a minister of the Church as he him selfe was afterward Also in the Bishops house was a Colledge of studentes and our histories testifie that at Bangor in Wales was a great vniuersitie of learned men Whether S. Chrysostome S. Basill and those other auncient Monkes both in our owne and also in other countreys were nothing else but studentes it is not the question of this place See cap. 10. dem 25. pag. but onely doe I note here that he confesseth them to haue bene of the Church of God Then as concerning the times first of persecution afterward of peace vnder the Emperours both heathen and Christian he vttereth his confession of the true Church in these wordes Our assemblies were kept in secret places Ar. 51.52 long time after Christes ascension in most Countries that were subiect to the Romane Empire and when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church he builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas for our assemblies and Seruice Also necessarie furniture for the seruice of God was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors that were of our Church before the reuelation of Antichrist that is as before you heard his meaning before the time of Bonifacius the thirde Pur. 342. Likewise in an other place he confesseth both those Caues and Vaultes vnder the earth that the olde Christian Bishops were content to serue in before the time of Constantine and also those princely buildinges that by Constantine and other Christian Princes were first set vp for the publike exercise of Christian Religion To which times belongeth also that wherein he confesseth the conuersion of Nations by the true Church saying It did not onely require but also subdue all Nations to the obedience of the faith Ar. 97. so many as were euer subdued in the dayes of the first Christian Emperours and before Finally he confesseth the Emperours yet more expressely and more particularly saying Ar. 33. It is an easie matter to name you the Emperours and princes which both offered to the ministers of iustice in the right of our Church and also mainteined our faith and congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the great Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers others And to signifie that he meaneth these Emperours to haue bene such as he would wish for he addeth of the latter Emperours and saith I passe ouer as to well knowen many of the Grecian Emperours Likewise I passe ouer Charles the great I will not rehearse those later Germane Princes that c. For although these and such like defended some part of the trueth which we holde against you yet least you should obiect it was but in one or two poyntes I passe them ouer with silence And so much for the true Church in the first 600. yeares ¶ The third Chapter That he confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainely with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the But not his Caluinicall Church true Church may erre and also hath erred AFter all this so smoothly by him confessed of the true Church and sometime also of the long continuing thereof in incorruption if any man maruell to heare nowe that yet withall he holdeth the same true Church at the same time to haue bene corrupted and to haue erred let him sée here in the eleuenth Chapter his manifolde manifest contradictions he will quickly leaue his marueiling the matter he shal perceiue is not so straunge in this man but very vsuall common to contrarie him selfe as it is also no rare thing in his master Caluine and the other heretical writers of our time But here in the meane while be it disagréeing or be it agréeing with that which he hath confessed already Infra ca. 11. cōtradict 4. I will in this present Chapter laye forth his words first generally that the true Church may erre and afterwarde of the particuler errors common to the true Church then and to our Church now The first part That the true Church may erre Ar. 86 Therefore that the true Church may erre thus he saith The true and onely Church of Christ can neuer be voyde of God his spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceiued in some things And a litle after Wherefore the whole Churche militant consisting of men which are all lyars may erre all together Ar. 88. Agayne The true and onely Church of God as it is declared before hath no such priuilege graunted but that she may be deceiued in some things And there beneath And if it may erre and be deceiued it selfe what man is he that neede to doubt whether it may induce any error among the people In so much that he is bolde to say in an other place Pur. 367 368. Of an hundred argumentes that S. Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians this insultation that their heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church was one of the feeblest which tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of truth that is in it but by their confession and graunt In so much agayne that a few lines after he saith to D. Allen or rather to S. Augustine if it be truely scanned In deede they were but sory whelpes that could not say baffe to the bleating of such a calfe as you are Modestly which thinke that such a foolish cauill can cary credite with them that haue any cromme of brayne in their heades to wit The Church prayeth so therefore it is true Ar. 83.84 Moreouer in an other If you meane as it seemeth and as the rest of the Papistes doe interprete that Article I beleeue the Catholike Church that is I beleeue whatsoeuer the Church doth allow to be true I denie that it is
necessarie to saluation that a Christian man should so beleeue the Catholike Church because the Church may erre Agayne in the same place But to beleeue al and euery thing that the Catholike Church by common consent doth mainteine is no Article of our fayth and therfore not necessarie to saluation The second part That the true Church did also erre and that in the same poyntes as we now do erre in j. Where he chargeth them with many poynts together Now further that the true Church did also in dede erre first in the same poyntes wherein our Church now erreth as they charge it thus he saith Ar. 35. Si patrem f. Beelzebub vocauerun◠quanto magis domesticos eius◠Matt. x. Many abuses and corruptions were entred into the Churche of Christe immediatly after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist By Antichrist he meaneth God forgiue him his blasphemie the vicar of Christ him selfe and so consequently by that preparatiue he meaneth such poynts of the Popes religion as are found agaynst the Protestantes in antiquitie Where to minister him some light by the way if it may please God to open his eyes let him consider that he must confesse no lesse Infra c. 11. cont 8. yea much more that the Arian Sabellian Nestorian and infinit other old Heresies detested now of both our parts were a preparatiue for Antichrist and therfore séeing that Bonifacius the third and the other Popes after him haue not receiued those confessed heresies that it followeth necessarily therof that the Popes are not Antichrist But that I stray not further from my matter but rather reserue euery thing to his proper place he cōmeth else where to particularities and saith Pu. 419. And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that they did not always weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse What any thing without exception Go too then and name somewhat for ensample So they tooke the signe of the crosse from the Valentinians What more Oblations for the days of death and byrth of the Gentiles Foorth a Gods name Prescript times of fasting and vnmeasurable extolling of Sole life in the ministers of the Church from the Manichees Tacianistes and Montanistes And yet what more Prayer for the dead of the Montanistes Forth agayne Purgatory fire of the Origenistes Say on still Yea Ieronym was almost fallen into the heresie of Tertullian in condemning seconde mariage Once more to ease that stomacke Yea euen the name of sacrifice which was commonly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles All these eyght poyntes he so noteth in the Fathers of Gods Church together in one place Againe in an other place after the sayings of Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus alleaged Ar. 60. The other writers of later yeres saith he we are not afrayd to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayers for the dead and diuers superstitious superfluous Ceremonies And that to the same they were no lesse addicted then we are he confesseth plainly where he graunteth that they accounted the contrarie for no better then heresie Ar. 44.45 46. You may perchaunce saith he note the names of them that preaching the truth of our doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world for Heretikes And a litle after I wil not dissemble that which you thinke the greatest matter Well then confesse the truth Aerius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they count for an error Also he taught that fasting dayes are not to be obserued if he espied the superstition of fasting dayes and reproued it that was no error at all And who els Iouinian affirmed that virginitie was no better then mariage which if it be well vnderstood is no error at all And if he taught further that suche as could not conteine though they had vowed virginitie should neuerthelesse be maried Moreouer if he taught that fasting abstinence from certaine meates and other bodily exercise of them selues profite litle it was no error he saith and yet S. Ieronyme was a most bitter enemie vnto Iouinian Any more Last of all Vigilantius wrote agaynst Inuocation of Saintes superstition of Reliques and other Ceremonies Him Ieronym reproueth or rather rayleth on him Modestly for his reasons are nothing worth that he hath against him Therefore howsoeuer Ieronym esteemed him in his rage if he had none other opinions contrary to the trueth we doubt not to acknowledge Vigilantius as many godly and learned Bishops of his time did for a true preacher and reprehender of that superstition whervnto Ieronym was to much addict He said afore that he would not dissemble and yet you sée his ifs and Hierome alone against many godly and learned Bishoppes Therefore to make it yet more playne howe in clearing these Heretikes he chargeth the Fathers I must report what he hath likewise in other places ij As touching Vigilantius and inuocation of Saintes by it selfe As where D. Allen said Pur. 306 310. So their citing out of S. Ambrose for the improuing of the inuocation of holy Saintes is no more but an abuse of the simples ignorance knowing well that he and all other of that time did practise prayers both often to all holy Martyrs and sometimes peculiarly to such whom for patronage they did especially choose of deuotion amongest the rest To this he answereth Honorably Touching Ambrose which was sodenly made a Bishop before he was a perfect Christian if some steppes of Hethenish Inuocation or Rhetoricall apostrophees and prosopopees appeare to be in him and some other about his time yet was not that generally receiued of all the Church in his time Also where the question is asked Ar. 39. Whether men began sodenly to require the helpe of Saintes in heauen He answereth Whether sodenly or by litle and litle man were brought to suche superstition that they required helpe of Saintes it maketh litle matter yet it is to be thought that it grewe vp as other errors by litle and litle And S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the ende can define nothing in certayne Howe the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Pur. 315.316.317 Although he can not define Howe yet neuerthelesse sayth D. Allen he nothing doubteth but intercession maye profitably be made to them and that also for the deceased Wherevnto Fulke sayth agayne Augustine in hys booke De cura pro mortuis agenda is full of doubtes that he knoweth not hym selfe what to determine but that he wyll holde the common opinions receaued in his time And
whatsoeuer wee doe Also To geue to them that are newly Baptised a temper of mylke and hony and from the day of their Baptisme forbid dayly washing all the weeke after v. As touching Purgatorie and Praying for the dead But for Purgatorie and Praying for the dead because his whole booke is of that matter he is most profuse in charging that auncient true Church both fathers and people thereof and therfore I must stand the longer hereabout specially because the Reader shall sée therein as in a notable example to what shamefull confessions against them selues they are driuen whensoeuer they take in hand to answere throughly to any learned Catholike that hath throughly written of any controuersie And first I will shewe what he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times secondly of the whole Churche in some of those times thirdly of the glorious originall that they referre it vnto and lastly of the shamefull original or head that he referreth it vnto and them also for it j. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it And for the first to beginne alowe and so goe vpwarde Pur. 158. Bernard saith he is a very late writer and therefore his authoritie with vs is of small accompt in such cases as he followeth the common error of his time I take this in the way without our compasse yet not without good cause that conferring the times both within and without those first .600 yeares thou maist beholde how he chargeth both a like Well then to come nowe into our compasse Pur. 166. of S. Gregorie thus he saith When the proofe commeth you leape but 600. yeares from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I will not denie but you may haue great store of such stuffe And not afore that time likewise Theodoret was an .100 yeares before S. Gregory Pur. 123. and what of him and his time Oecumenius and Theodoretus saith he were writers about that time when corruption of doctrine had greatly preuayled Againe before that time from the yeare .430 vp to .360 much about one time these did florish Augustine See M. Rishtons table Ambrose Hierome Paulinus Efrem Chrisostome Basil and Epiphanius And what of them and their time I haue alreadie rehearsed what he saith of S. Augustine vpon his booke De cura Pur. 315.317 that he woulde hold the common opinions receaued in his time and that he was willing to mainteine the superstition that was not throughly confirmed in his time 349. As againe If he had diligently examined the Common error of his time of prayer for the dead he would not so blindly haue defended it as he doth in that booke De cura pro mortuis agenda and else where And againe In celebration of the Sacrament 326. the superstitious error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remembrance of some in the prayers as of Monica Patritius the parents of S. Augustine 78. Againe But Augustine speaketh of the amending fire in the place alleaged by M. Allen. He doth so in deede but Augustine had no ground of that fire but in the common error of his time 161. And againe Concerning Augustine that error of Purgatorie was somewhat risely budded vp in his time Then of Paulinus 322. Purgatorie in those dayes was but euen a breeding and yet not throughly shaped out of prayers for the dead and such other superstitious ceremonies as were vsed about the departed How handsomly he agréeth here with him selfe I dissemble till * Contr. 46.47 the 11. Chapter Nowe of Ambrose and others Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead as it was a Common error in his time Pur. 320 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Beda Ephraim Ambrose Moreouer Chrysostome and Ieronym allowed prayers for the dead 194. 370. Then of Epiphanius Because the olde Liturgies vsed to make memorie of all sortes of men that were dead in Christ he expoundeth it according to the error of his time that this memorie was a prayer for the sinners for the iust as Patriarkes Prophets c a signification that they were inferior to Christ a simple cause why they should be remembred but this shift he is driuen vnto So S. Augustins exposition of the like practise 279.280 August euc 110. ad dul q. 4. saying When the sacrifices either of the Altar or of any kind of Almes be offered for all men departed and baptized for the very good they are Gratiarum actiones thanks giuing for them that be not very euill they are Propitiationes procurements of mercy for the very euil although they be no succor to them being dead yet they are certayne comforts to the liuing He condemneth it likewise in these words These matters stand al vpon a false supposition that any prayers are auailable for the dead which when it can not be proued it is in vaine to shew who taketh profite by them who not And so much of that time yea and of more then that time where he said before the times of Efrem and Ambrose Let vs now ascend to Constantinus Magnus his time who was the first full Christian Emperour and beganne his raigne soone after the yeare .300 Pur. 313. In the buriall of Constantinus sayth he there is mention of prayer for his soule according to the error of the time which was * Inough for any Christian man the time euen of the first Nicen Councell also and he buried in the Gréeke Church at Constantinople Long afore that againe about the yeare .200 florished Tertullian and Origines of that time so he saith after a certaine saying of Origens alleaged By this place it is manifest Pu. 249. that Origen whom notwithstanding here a little after we shall haue for the founder of Purgatorie and the East Churche in his time acknowledged no Purgatorie paines Againe This one testimonie of Origen shall testifie what the iudgement of the Greeke Church was concerning Purgatorie and prayers for the dead from the Apostles time vnto his dayes Pag. To Origens place I must answere in the ninth Chapter but nowe doe you say on I wotte well superstition in the Latine Church was somwhat forwardes in as much as there was the seat of Antichrist appointed to be set vp Where by the waye may be noted his For the .xii. Chapter ignorance being the foundation of his malice that he knoweth not all the old heresies to haue sprong of the Gréekes wherevpon also were holden in the Gréeke Church those first foure generall Councels against them and not of the Latines but contrawise the Romaine Church specially to be commended of the fathers Vinc. Lir. cap. ix Ruf. in expo Symb num iii. For maintaining alwayes most earnestly susceptae semel Religionis integritatem the puritie of
Religion whiche it first receaued neque heresis vlla illic sumpsit exordium and that no heresie did spring there But to our matter that forwardnes in the Latine Churche he confesseth I thinke in respect of Tertullian whose manifest testimonies he coulde not otherwise shift him of and therefore of him somewhere he saith thus I denie that any of the auncient Fathers in Christ his time or Scholars to his Apostles Pu. 435. or within one or two hundreth yeares after Christ except one that had it of Montanus the heretike as he had more thinges besides in any one worde mainteined your cause for Purgatorie or Prayers for the deade Mary Montanus of whom Tertullian receaued his heresie had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes Againe I will not denie but you haue much drosse and dragges of the later sorte of Doctors Pur. 247. and the later the fuller of drosse But bring me any worde out of any that did write within one .100 yeares after Christ that alloweth prayer or almes for the dead Where as we sée by the later sort of Doctors he sheweth him self to meane such as were without one .100 yeares after Christ But of that one .100 yeares also together with Tertullian and the Fathers afore him vp vnto Christ we shall haue occasion to say more anone in our third Article Hauing therefore thus shewed in this first Article howe he chargeth the true confessed Fathers of the true confessed Church with this error as which he summeth vp together in an other place Pur. 458. and saith The error was continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Let vs now sée how he chargeth the same whole true Churche for some time with the same and that the more briefely because we haue nowe so often hard him say of so many times that it was the common error of that time and that time ij What he saieth of the whole Church in some of those times Pur. 382. Thus he saith in one place If we be asked how we can shifte our selues against the generall practise of Gods Churche for all popish assertions and namely this of praying for the dead We answere that we denye the practise to be generall because wee finde it Is nothing generall but that vvhich you find in them not in the most auncient writers that liued within an hundreth yeares and more after the time of Christ But what say you to the later practise which for places then was generall though for times you count it particular And to the particular practise of later times we answere that it is not sufficient to controll the auncient doctrine and primer practise Againe in an other place 370. The same order that was before Epiphanius and error that was in Epiphanius time doe all the later Liturgies followe and therefore saye I all the later Byshoppes and Priestes and people because they vsed those Liturgies making memorie and prayers for all them that are departed in the faith What saye you then to that practise so generall In the memorie of all departed they followe the olde order in praying for all they followe the later error which had chaunged the sacrifice of thankes geuing into the sacrifice of prayer But more of the olde Liturgies nowe in the thirde Article which must be of the originall that the Fathers referred this their practise vnto iij. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And here first for perspicuitie I remember to the Reader what S. Augustine saith of fasting August â—pist 86. Casul In the Scriptures of the new Testament Video praeceptum esse Ieiunium I see that fasting is commaunded But what dayes we must keepe fast Non inuenio in illis literis euidenter praeceptum I finde not in those scriptures euidently commaunded And yet the fast of fortie dayes before Easter and some others both he many moe of the Fathers doe say to be Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— commended vnto vs in the Scripture of the new Testament but specially that it coÌ„meth expresly vnto vs of the Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— Apostles tradition without Scripture The like they say of prayer for the dead that it is expresly found in the holy Scripture But the certaine times that it is solemnely practised as vpon the burial day the third seuenth thirteth fourteth yeares day and also in a certaine speciall prayer of the holy Masse are they say eyther all or some of them of the Apostles plaine TraditioÌ„ though also commaunded to vs out of Scripture So say the Fathers and for their so saying let vs now sée what this maÌ„ saith of them And to omit because it requireth a longer treatie that he maketh in effect no lesse then heretiks of S. Augustine with others Infr ca. â— Pur. 214 for auouching sacrifice for the dead out of the booke of Maccabées as out of Canonical scripture Gregorie Bernard Bede whoÌ„ D. Allen alleageth vpon the place of Mathew 12 are of opinion Pur. 19. â— Gre. 4.19 Ber. Ser. in Cant Bed in Mar. 3. saith Fulke that sinnes not remitted in this world may be remitted in the world to come But howe happeneth it that Chrysostome and Ieronym which both interpreted that place coulde gather no such matter although they otherwise allowed Prayer for the deade the reason must needes be because the error of Purgatorie growing so much the stronger as it were nearer to the full reuelation of Antichrist Gregorie and Bede sought not the true meaning of Christ in this Scripture but the confirmation of their plausible error Then S. Chrysostome bylike will please him Pur. 251.247 Chris ho. â—4 in 1. cor 15. Such pitie may bring you into the pit of hell Pur. 237. but heare I pray you out of an other place I denie not but that Chrysostome doth alleage this example of Iob sacrificing for his children Cap. 1. for prayers to profite the dead What shall we say Those good men in that declining state of the Church to superstition being destitute of the cleare testimonies of Scripture to maintaine those plausible errors are driuen to such simple shiftes to vphold them as it is great pittie to see Againe But where learned Chrysostome that prayers and almes had any comfort in them for the dead surely he alleageth Scripture but he applieth it madly and yet he often applieth it to the same purpose Pur. 226. Amb. de obit Theod. Alas good man Likewise Ambrose commendeth Honorius the young Emperour for solemnising the funerals of Theodosius his father by the space of .40 dayes after the example of Ioseph Genesis .50 such superstition crept into the Churche first by emulation of the Paganes and after seeking for colourable confirmation in the examples of the
Patriarkes Pur. 363. Againe Those Doctors that would seeke confirmation of prayer and oblation for the dead in the Scriptures as Chrysostome and such like doe manifestly wrest them to their purpose I doe here no more but note that he chargeth them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche euen so as he chargeth vs But what Scriptures and how substantially they alleaged I must reserue to * See ca. 13. an other place As that also which * See cap. 9. pag. he grateth vpon so often out of Tertullian as if he should confesse that prayer and oblation for the deade is not taken at all out of the Scriptures Whereas in déede he doth not so say but onely of the solemne times of such oblation in such manner as I alleaged a litle before out of S. Augustine concerning fasting and fasting dayes The offring anima die vpon the yeares myndday for the dead and the solemne memorie of them in the Canon of the Masse these thinges Tertullian and others ascribe to the Apostles traditions and not to precept of the Scripture And now for making it such a tradition what saith Fulke againe of them Pur. 39◠Thinke you that prayers for the dead came from the Apostles because Tertullian saith so And a litle after If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he And againe Where Chrysostome saith Pur. 303. It was agreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that be departed for they right well knew great profite to arise thervpon vnto them he must pardon vs of crediting him It is no maruell now after this to sée him fayne to denie the See cap. 13. most certaine works of the Apostles Scholars Clemens Romanus Dionysius Areopagita witnessing the same tradition and to say that we haue them but of some counterfayting knaue that could not otherwise mainteine his heresie to be olde Pur. 268. The modestie of the man tovvardes the old vvriters but by falsifying and counterfayting anew that which neuer was in the olde writers heades Finally vnlesse he make the like counterfaiting knaue of S. Chrysostome also he may sée by this testimonie of his that he had no cause for this poynt to charge him or any other after him with suche a chaunge of the olde Liturgies as he doth in many places saying But be it that Chrysostome Basil did write these Liturgies Pur. 356. Itē 360.371 the oldest Fathers that can be giuen them I would know what Liturgies they had in those Churches before Chrysostome and Basil deuised those formes that are said to be theirs If you would in déede know it and namely for this poynt about the dead Chrysostome him selfe as also Augustine Epiphanius Tertullian and others alleaged by D. Allen hath tolde you that it was all one and the same afore and after It followeth in him And whye Chrysostome Basill Gregorie or any other that prescribed newe formes of seruice were not content with the old formes that were vsed in their Churches before their dayes * See his boldnes vndoubtedly because they were too simple for their curiositie too sincere for their superstition sauouring of the auncient truth not fauouring their lately receiued errors And a litle after The authors of these Liturgies thought to confirme it by publike authoritie whiche was before but a blinde error without a head I shall answere this why of yours in the sixt Chapter where I must answere for these Fathers iiij He contrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuel and his limmes Now let vs come to the fourth and last article to sée him so farre confronting those Fathers which haue thus fathered this matter vpon the Apostles partly their writings partly their tradition that he cleane contrarie fathereth it vpon the diuell him selfe sundry lims of his saying boldly that thence the holy Fathers had it Ar. 39. It is certayne saith he that prayer for the dead was first planted by the diuell as were other abuses and because it hath a great pretence of charitie deceyued simple men the sooner Pur. 386. And with more particularitie in an other place First the diuel suggested superstitious deuotion into the Gentiles by peruerse emulation of whom Iudas Machabaeus might be deceyued And his facte gaue occasion to the ignoraunt people of error And their ignoraunce first winked at because it had a shewe of pietie confirmed by custome might at length Pur. 436. for none of the auncient Fathers within foure hundred yeres was wholly of your error be allowed of Augustine and others who neuer weyed the matter by Scriptures but by the common practise And this I thinke saith he is the righte pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie And in an other place yet more particularly Pur. 416. Pur. 152.266.386.410 I haue promised sayth he and that very often and therefore so muche the more to be noted to proue that the opinion of Purgatorie had the same originall that the moste notable Heresies had He beginneth that paragraph with these wordes Nowe at the length commeth the author of this Heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine whom D. Allen there alleageth that Aerius an Arian was the firste that denied prayers and oblations to profite the dead Vnto that Fulke goeth about there to aunswere to quitte Aerius and to counteraccuse those Fathers and their felowes Well then Purgatorie sayth he had the same originall that the moste notable Heresies had And what was that Heresie was receyued from the diuell by Philosophers and Gentiles And howe proue you that Purgatorie was so receyued Mary all Philosophers whiche graunted the Immortalitie of the soule as Phythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned three places for the soules departed And who else Carpocrates was a great admirer of Philosophie This Heretike learning out of Plato his Philosophie that mens soules must be purified after their death inuented a kinde of Purgatorie out of the opinion of Pythagoras Yet forwarde Origen to muche a Philosopher was not content with Plato his purification but he must bring in Platoes fire also Is this all Afterwarde about S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented by some mediators and conciliators of Origens error with the erroneous practise of the Churche Here loe we haue the thirde place the purification the fire and the name We lacke nowe but the relieuing of the Soules there For that he saith The Heracleonites would redeme their dead after a new maner namely by oyle balme water and Inuocation said ouer their heades in the Hebrew tongue But at one stroke to strike vs starke dead Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes First that the Patriarkes before Christes
Iewel where he had Pur. 145.148 that the Church of God might erre Behold I pray you the confidence of this man in his answere therevnto Whatsoeuer M. Iewel hath affirmed against the Papistes he hath so substantially and learnedly defended that For many Pâ—testants neeâ— no other boâ— to become Câ—â—tholikes he neede not to haue any other man to answere for him Therfore if it were not to choke M. Allen in his owne coller I would trauell no further in this question How then doth he strangle the man The Church you say can not erre and that companie is the Church which hath the Pope for their head Very true both the one and the other If therfore it can be proueâ— that the Pope and all they that take his parte haue erred it is sufficiently shewed that the Churche maye erre Say then S. Augustine was in this error as you will not denie that the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ was to be ministred to Infants But of the same opinion he affirmeth that Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church in his time was Therfore the Pope and all the Church did erre Reade Augustine contra Iul. li. 1. cap. 2. Whether he saith of Innocentius Qui denique paruulos definiuit nisi manduc auerinâ— carnem filij hominis vitam prorsus habere non posse Which hath defined that Infantes except they eate the flesh of the sonne of man can haue no life at all in them And by eating the flesh of the sonne of man he meaneth eating the sacrament of his flesh and bloud as it is euident to them that will bestow the reading of Augustines discourse in that place Pur. 309. Againe in an other place And by the waye note here one practise of a notable error in Augustines time that the Sacrament of the Lords supper was giuen to children which wist not what it ment contrarie to the worde of God who requireth men to examine them selues before they receiue it Wherfore if any other practise were in his time or allowed by him contrarie to Gods worde we are no more bound vnto it then vnto this which euen the Papistes them selues Or els you can not â—eâ—l will confesse to be erroneous Yea he is not afrayde to preferre the very Pelagians in this poynt before all Gods Church of that time Pur. 390. saying In S. Augustines dayes of whose time the historie of the Church is By vvhat Historiographaâ— largely set foorth vnto vs who preached or writ agaynst that error which he and Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church as he confessed did hold that Infants must receiue the holy Communion or els they should be damned who preached against this error except perhaps the Pelagians that were horrible heretikes Agayne Why was it reuealed to the Pelagians Pur. 422. that Infantes might be saued without the participation of the sacrament of Christes body and bloud rather then vnto S. Austine Innocentius Bishop of Rome and as Augustine saith and the Catholike Fathers of that time which thought it was as necessarie for them to receiue the Communion as to be baptized The reuealing of his ignorant sawcines herein I reserue to the sixt Chapter Here I do no more but note what errors he layeth to the true Churches charge which bene these that you haue heard ¶ The fifte Chapter What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors THus haue we heard of him that the true Church may remayne the true Church although it erre and that it hath erred in many of the same articles wherein we do nowe erre and moreouer in many other articles beside wherein we do not erre wherof it followeth playnly that neither our erring nor these our errors no nor any other our errors are alone sufficient for him to depriue vs of the true Church And now not béeing able to depriue vs of the true Church if any man do yet thinke that for all that he is not constrayned to graunt to vs the true Church let the same man in this Chapter consider what reason he yéeldeth why our Fathers notwithstanding their foresaid errors had the true Church and he shal most euidently perceiue that by the same reason we notwithstanding our errors haue likewise the true Church He nameth somewhere Tertullian Cyprian Origen Ar. 61. Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Hieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. and saith of them as followeth But for as much as they holde the foundation that is Christ though they haue diuers errors and superstitions they were doubtles the members of the true Church of Christ Pur. 336 In an other place hauing said that in S. Augustines time they vsed vnprofitable prayers for the dead and many other superstitions he addeth neither doth it folow that al that taught or beleeued those errors so long as they buylded vppon Christ the onely foundation haue perished Againe Ar. 74. We take not vpon vs to medle with God his iudgementes whom he condemneth or for what causes further then the worde of God teacheth vs namely that as many as haue not beleeued in the only sonne of God are condemned for their vnbeliefe other secret causes we remit to his secret counsel and knowledge Pur. 34â— In so much that where D. Allen presseth this newe founde Cleargie in our countrey for vsurping those Colledges other ecclesiastical prouisions against the willes of the first founders who meant them to such as should pray for their soules and not to suche as should preach agaynst the same he answereth of them likewise saith Whether any meant to mainteine preaching agaynst Masse or prayers for their owne soules as we know not whether they did or no so we count it not materiall c. and whether the buylders of such places be saued or damned it perteyneth not to vs to iudge or to enquire Agayne where D. Allen had shewed by example of S. Augustine of his mother and of others that they offered prayers and the sacrifice of the Altar for the dead Pur. 325 328. and therevpon concludeth saying Thus loe all these Fathers taughte thus they practised thus they liued thus they dyed none was saued then but in this fayth let no manne looke to be saued in any other nowe Nay saith Fulke not so For althogh they were in that time infected with some errors yet was the faith of their saluation in the only foundation Iesus Christ Pur. 238. c. in the only mercy of God Againe We confesse that in Chrysostomes dayes the onely foundation Iesus Christe was taught and the article of iustification by the only mercy of God was preached but yet we affirme that muche straw wood and other impure matter was buylded vpon the foundation whiche was a preparatiue to the kingdome of Antichrist which was not long after to be reuealed Pur. 287. And in an other place Cyprians
any one error of theirs they are of your side The Luciferians and the Donatistes had for them the error of S. Cyprian and of his Councell in Afrike and therewith they vrged the Catholikes very sore as we sée in S. Hierome and in S. Augustine But the Protestantes I say haue not so much as any error of any father to vrge vs withall And to charge the Churche with the errors of those Fathers as you doe What a thing againe is that as if you would charge Pope Stephanus and the other Catholikes that erred not with the foresaid error of S. Cyprian For so you charge the Churche in the times of Papias Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus with their errors to shew that it decayed at least immediately after the Apostles time But at leastwise you will say some Fathers haue erred in some thing and therefore it is true that the Fathers may erre Why syrs Do we attribute infallibilitie to euery father Deceaue not the people Puâ— 383.432 make not as though you had infringed the fathers authoritie when you haue shewed that a father hath erred that is not the point betwene vs therein we agrée together But this it is that we charge you with that you resist their full and whole consent For to these we ascribe infallible trueth To the Canonicall Scriptures and tradition of the Apostles without any limitation at all in matters of Religion To the decrées of Peter and his Chaire because it is the rocke of the Church and to the whole Church and therefore againe to the Consent of the Fathers and to Generall Councells confirmed by Peters Successor because these two imploy the whole Churche Yea also to Prouinciall Councells confirmed by the same Chaire And therfore any one of these wée saye can not be against any other of these no more then Canonicall Scripture can be against Canonical Scripture And therfore againe if against these or any one of these there be as it may be any Doctor or Doctors any prouinciall Councell or any Generall Councell it is therein with vs of no authoritie as you sée in Sainct Cyprian and his Councell of Afrike But yet so long as the matter is not plainely against these the particular Doctors and Councell are with vs of great authoritie though some more then some according to the persons number question and other circumstaunces And herevpon it is that we are not hastie as you are to charge them with errors when they did not erre nor also to reueale and to amplifie their errors when they dyd erre but rather when you reueale them and amplifie them to couer them and make the least of them Iren. li. 2. cap. 39.40 so farre as trueth will permitte vs. Nowe the trueth is that séeyng the Gnostici saide that Christ beganne to preache in the beginnyng of his thirtieth yeare and preached but one yeare and then suffered in the twelfth moneth of the same yeare being so of the age of thirtie yeares to signifye their thirtie Aeones Ireneus had occasion hereby to racke the age of Christ not onely aboue thirtie yeares but also towarde .50 yeares beyng able as he thought to yelde a good reason agaynst their fabulous reason why Christ would bée so olde which was to bée an infante with infantes and so forthe tyll he were at length also an olde man with olde men as the sanctification and example of all ages specially because he thought he had both the Ioan. 8 Gospell and also tradition of his side hauing heard of Sainct Iohns Schollers in Asia that seniorem aetatem habens dominus noster docebat Our Lorde was of olde age when he Preached and thinking by olde age they must haue ment aboue .40 towardes .50 howbeit the matter of it selfe is not great and then also it was muche lesse Againe the Gnostici reiected the God Creator withall his creation Iren. li. â—… in fine as another God from God the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christ Therefore was Ireneus glad if he could shew that Christ not onely tooke his owne flesh and made his owne Sacramentes of the Creators Creatures and raised from death his saide owne fleshe and so will raise our fleshe likewise but also that he will after our Resurrection dwel here in the Creators earth with vs for a thousand yeares Apoc. 2â—… so well he lyketh the Creator and his Creatures speciallye because he thought the Apocalypse of Sainct Iohn to bée on hys syde herein and had in déede on his syde Papias who either was scholler to Sainct Iohn or rather scholler to his schollers Euseb li. 3. ca. v but homo ingenij pertenuis a man of a verye slender witte as it is easie to gather of hys writinges sayth Eusebeus and therfore not altogether suche a one as Sainct Paule required 2. Tim. â—… speaking of the schollers of his scholler Timothie qui idonei erunt c. such as shall be meete to teach others also because him selfe was not sufficient to vnderstand Apostolicas interpretationes c. The Apostles expositions being made in mysticall fygures and darke parables Howbeit the matter was not then so great vntill b Eus liâ—… 7. ca. 19 Au. de 〈…〉 li. 20. caâ—… 〈…〉 See Bib … cta Sixt Se. li. 5. not 233 afterwarde the Churche condemned peraduenture that opinion in the Heretikes called Chiliastae or Millenarij who according to d Au. 〈…〉 Cerinthus the Heretike in the Apostles tyme encreased the error with b Eus 〈◊〉 7. ca. 19 Au. de 〈◊〉 li. 20. ca◠〈◊〉 See Bib … cta Sixt Se. li. 5. not 233 intollerable augmentations of belly cheare and fleshely lust whiche they expected in those thousande yeares as the Turkes and Iewes doe Dionysius Alexandrinus wrote agaynst Nepos for it as f Eus sâ—… Hic C … in Dio … Alex. 〈◊〉 per Esa 18. in p … Iusti iâ—… pol. ad natum Eusebius hath recorded and also Sainct Hierome De viris illust And therefore it séemeth some wordes to bée lacking in another place of his where nowe wée reade as though it was Ireneus agaynst whom Dionysius wrote No more was it at that tyme a great matter for g Iustinus Martyr to be ouerséene in the sinne of the Angels both because his whole drift there is notwithstanding this by word very true that one God made all but some of his Angels did fall from him vsurpe a tyrannie ouer men till Christ came to deliuer vs and therfore the same wicked Angels do stirre vp their Gentiles now against the Christians being men most innocent and the faithfull seruauntes of the true God And also because that place Gen. 6. is the first place in the Scripture where expresse mention is made of the Angels and of their sinne for that place Gene. 3. The serpent was craftier then any beast of the earth how parabalicall it is but Gen. 6. the Septuaginta in their authenticall translation had then as S. Augustine witnesseth
plainely Angeli Dei August de Ciu. li. 15. cap. 22.23 The Angels of God where we haue nowe but onely Filij Dei The sonnes of God meaning as it is now commonly thought The ofspring of Seth that they marryed with the daughters of men that is with the ofspring of Caine which aâ—ore they refrained religiously iij. Touching Second mariages and Sainct Hierome Ar. 35. But of Iustinus his time you saye further It seemeth also that the Churche in his time was in some error about Seconde mariages and diuorcementes Had you no more to saye but It seemeth and yet coulde not absteine from accusing the Churche of God neither yet doe you tell vs why it séemeth so you neyther alleage nor so much as quote any place to proue it In the workes of Iustinus him selfe I dare say you haue it not If you tooke it out of the Magdeburgian Centuries followe my counsell hereafter and looke euerye thing first your selfe in the Authors before you beléeue your fellowes or masters any more otherwise they will deceiue you still and so you againe deceyue your puenies if they againe will trust your word Supra ca. 4 Of like stuffe it is that you accuse S. Hierom also for Second mariages say a Pur. 419. Yea Ieronym b Ar. 46. the great aduaÌ„cer of virginitie dispraiser of mariage was almost fallen into the heresie of TertulliaÌ„ in condemning second mariages You say but almost that also wtout any testimony either alleged or quoted Bylike you neuer read S. Hieroms Apologie pro libris aduer Ioui where at large he defendeth him self against all such cauils of his enemies Amongst much more thus he saith there Non damno digamos prope â— imò nec trigamos c. I do not condemne them that are twisemaried no not thrisemaried also if it may be saide eightmaried Reade that booke from the beginning and stand out if you can that very countenance onely of this most graue singular doctor wherwith he speaketh to his backbiters saying An ego rudis in Scripturis c. O belike I was altogether ignorant in the Scriptures and began then first to reade the holy bookes and therfore was not able in my writing to walke straight betwene virginitie and mariage but whiles I exalted virginitie agaynst Iouinian I condemned mariage with Marcion and Manicheus And yet so bold you be with him behind his back as you think that you lay vnto him agayne other two such perilous assertions such erroneous and hereticall absurdities Ar. 46. as no yong scholar of diuinitie would fall into To destroy the humanitie of Christ and To giue diuinitie vnder the Martyrs To report the trueth Vigilantius the heretike did say against praying to Saintes Hier. ad Vigil 2 That the soules of the Apostles and Martyrs can not be present at their sepulchres and where els they would This doth S. Hierom proue to be absurde and against the Scripture considering that The diuels gadde ouer all the world and with marueilous celeritie are present euery where And the Apocalipse saith of the Saintes Apoc. 1â— They folow the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth Of which place S. Hierome gathereth thus Si agnus vbique c. If the Lambe be euery where Ergo also these that are with the Lambe must be beleeued to be euerywhere Not meaning in personall presence euery where at once for so much nedeth not to the Inuocation of Saintes but of such power they be that they heare their suiters in all places at once and can be personally present to heale and helpe whom they will euen as the Lambe that is Christ according to his humanitie as your selfe confesse and as throughout that booke the worde is vsed heareth his suiters in all places at once and in personall presence assisted S. Stephen Act. 7. whomsoeuer els he will I say according also to his humanitie as in that respect likewise he said Mat. 2. â— All power is giuen to me in heauen and in earth And therfore you shal neuer be able in the matter of Inuocation of Saints to answer that text They follow the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth hauing said afore that he stood ouer the mount Sion so as Stephen saw him standing But you must be fayne to deny the Inuocation hearing assisting of Christ according to his humanitie as much as you denie the inuocation hearing and assisting of them that be so with Christ S. Hierome is to olde a scholer in the Scriptures or rather to perfect a master for you to answere or oppose him iiij Touching praying to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost If these afore be but particuler or such other persons as imply not the whole Church but yet two most euident examples you haue in store against the whole vniuersall true Church The first that the third Councell of Carthage though a Prouinciall Synode yet hauing the authoritie of a generall Councell because it was confirmed in a generall Councell defined that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the sonne and God the holy Ghost Mary this is a great matter in déede and incomparably worse then for Vigilantius or you to say that it is vnlawfull to pray to Christ according to his humanitie or to his Apostles and Martyrs But how appeareth it that they defined so because they determined that al prayers at the Altar should be directed only to the Father and not to the Sonne Con. Car. 3. ca. 23. or the holy Ghost The wordes of the Councell truely reported are these Vt nemo in precibus c. That no man in prayers name eyther the Father for the Sonne or the Sonne for the Father For that were to confound the persons after the heresie of Sabellius It followeth And when the Altar is stoode at let the prayer be directed alwayes to the Father Now doth it folow of this that no prayers may be directed to the Sonne and holy Ghost Such are his necessarie collections or also that the very prayers at the Altar may not be directed to them that they may not I say because for order sake they are appoynted to be directed to the Father The Arrians in S. Fulgentius time aboue a thousande yeres agoe Fulgen. ad Moninum li. 2. quaest 2. ca. 2.5 knowing this selfe same order to haue procéeded from the Apostles and to haue bene receiued and alwayes continued in all Liturgies or Masses throughout all Christendome esteemed it amongst their arguments as aperse But he teacheth the Catholikes to answere both those Arrians and this Protestant First he repeateth the argumeÌ„t speaking to his friend Moninus Dicis a nonnullis te interrogatum c. Thou sayest that many haue asked thee of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ which many thinke to be offered to the Father onely Also thou saiest that this argument is as it were the triumph of the heretikes Then he answereth it at large
it is a case that may trouble a mans conscience that would beleeue your Church and if he haue any wit restrayne him for euer coÌ„ming into your Church If you can not vntye this knot nor winde your selfe out of this maze c. So insoluble forsooth are your argumentes agaynst the Church of God iij. Touching the Constance Councell presumption But the thirde error I trow will sticke faster by vs because it is amongest those determinations of the Councell of Constance whiche were made agaynst the foresaide Heretikes which I haue confessed to be confirmed also by the Pope And this it is in Fulke his owne wordes Pur. 4. It is horrible presumption that any man or multitude of men should take vpon them authoritie to define agaynst the worde of God as the Councell of Constance which decreeth in playne wordes That notwithstanding Christ instituted the Sacrament to be receiued in both kindes and that the faythfull in the Primitiue Churche did so receiue it Manifest falsification yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuayle and whosoeuer saith contrarie is an heretike c. These he printeth in a distinct letter as the playne words of that Councell Con. CoÌ„st Sess 13. but the words truely reported are otherwise The Councell first telleth that certayne temerarious persons not onely do communicate the lay people in both kinds and after supper but also obstinately holde that they must be so communicated See Augu. ep 118. ca. 6 Then saith the Councell Hinc est c. Vpon this occasion this Councell doth declare determine and define that although Christ did institute after supper this venerable sacrament there is one piece And did minister it to his disciples vnder both formes of bread and wine there is the other piece yet this notwithstanding the authoritie of the sacred Canons also the laudable and approued custome of the Church hath obserued and doth obserue that this same sacrament must not be consecrated after supper nor receiued of the faithfull when they haue broken their fast c. there is agayne for the first piece And likewise that although this same sacrament were in the primitiue Church receiued of the faithfull vnder both formes yet for the auoyding of certaine dangers and scandles this custome was reasonably brought in that they which consecrate receiue it vnder both and the layetie onely vnder the forme of bread c. there is agayne for the second piece That which you report is one thing and this is an other thing For you also your selfe I thinke will not deny but that it is a good custome not to consecrate nor receiue it after supper although Christ did institute it after supper Neither do you therein graunt Christes institution to be agaynst that custome 1 No more doth the Councell graunt that practise of the primitiue Church to be against the custome of one forme For both are very reasonable and therefore both standing well together not onely at diuers times but also at one time in diuers places or of diuers persons 2 Muche lesse doth the Councell graunt as you make it to do that Christes institution was agaynst this custome of one forme 3 adding also such presumptuous words to say and yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuayle No such words are there reade the whole Chapter who will he shall finde to be spoken very reasonably very modestly and euery way as may beséeme a Councell iiij Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture To the last error I referre certaine outcries that he maketh against our Church for the false interpretation of certaine scriptures But first let the Reader heare D. Allen out of his booke of Purgatory Marke well he saith and you shall perceiue Cap. 11. Pur. 14 that the Church of Christ hath euer giuen roome to the diuersitie of mens wittes the diuision of graces and sundry giftes in exposition of most places of the whole Testament with this prouiso alwaies that no man of singularitie should father any falsehood or vntruth vpon any text And to declare this doing of the Church he there alleageth that worthy Doctor of the Church S. Augustine Au. coâ— li. 12. câ— ad 32. Doc. Câ—sti li. 1.36 li cap. 27 who in two bookes writeth excellently and copiously to this purpose requiring principally that in euerye texte a man alwaies shoote at the sense of the writer Least by vse of missing the way he be brought to goe also the sideway or the contrarie way But although he misse that sense if he hit any other sense quae fidae rectae non refragatur that is not repugnaÌ„t to the right faith or quae aedificandae charitati sit vtilis that may serue well to the edifying of charitie towardes God and our neighbour that then nihil periculi est there is no daunger non perniciosè fallitur he is not harmefully deceiued nec omnio mentitur no nor is a lyar at all But rather the writer him self Et ipsam sententiam forsitan vidit peraduenture saw euen that sense also or at the least the Spirit of God which was in him foresaw that the same sense also would come in the Readers way Imò ut accurreret quia c. Yea and ordayned that it should come in his way for it also standeth on truth Now vpon this in his article of the Churches erring Ar. 86. he offereth the Protestants saith Let any man proue vnto me that the true and onely Church of God may falsely interpret any sentence of holy Scripture I recant Fulke herevnto saith This gentle offer must needes be taken I will proue vnto you that the Churche of Rome hath falsely interpreted diuers sentences of Scripture and therefore by that which she hath done it can not bee doubted but that she may doe it And for the first he there bringeth forth Pope Innocentius with S. Augustine and all the Westerne Churche at that time falsely interpreting this Scripture Supra ca. 6 pa. 2. Except ye eate the fleshe c. Wherevnto I haue already answered For the next he saieth Furthermore the second Councell of Nice howe many textes of Scripture doth it salsely interprete which it were to tedious to repeate yet for example sake I will rehearse some of them God made man to his owne image Gen. 1. therefore we must haue Images in the Church No man lighteth a candle and setteth it vnder a Bushel Mat. 5. therefore Images must be set vpon the Altars As we haue heard so we haue seene in the Citie of our God Psal 48. that is God must not be knowen by onely hearing of his word but also by sight of Images If these be not true interpretations I report me to you This is answered already by yâ— which hath bene said out of S. Augustine For to interpret any text for Ecclesiastical Images is to interpret it for the right faith not to interpret it falsely or to father any
falshood vpon it We néede not to defend in Councells any more but their definitions therfore if they define that this text hath this sense as the Councell of Trent hath done in some we defend it accordingly Otherwise neither the Councell taketh vpō it to hit alwayes the very sense of the text And yet notwithstanding by S. Augustine à maiori in the places aboue noted I aduise all men not to be saucie with Councels no nor with particular Doctors lightly iudging them and saying that they misse the right sense least their saucines haue one day sowre sauce And specially you Sir if you make not amendes in time looke you to drinke of your Master Caluins Cuppe Calu. Insti li. 1. ca. 11. whose malitious steppes you here blindly followe neglecting to looke before you leaped For I must tell you yet further that the Councell for all your saying doth not so interpret those textes But only the litle Emperour Constantinus his mother Irene in their Epistle to the Synode doe exhort the fathers being then gathered to declare their Synodicall iudgement Actione 1. as other Synodes before them had done so to geue forth the world their light and the light of the Holy ghost For as much as no man lighting a Candle putteth it vnder a bushel according to our Lordes saying but vpon a Candlesticke that it may geue light to all that are in the house Is not this application most apt to that text and euen to the intention of our Lord when he spoke it Likewise it is not the Councell but the Pope Adrianus which in his Epistle to the forsaid Emperours saith Acti◠Yea also our Maker worker God our Lord after his owne Image and likenes did shape man of the clay and did lighten him setting him in free power of him self Not citing it to cōclude that therfore we must haue Images in the Church but to answere Nugas the triflyng obiection of the Heretikes who pretended the making of an Image to be against the article of one God Not so saith the Pope Nequaquam autem sic statuamus Let vs not bee so perswaded For all that we exhibite in desideriū dei Sanctorūque eius perficitur is in fine a great list to God to his Sainctes For as he there citeth the saying of Stephanus Episcopus Bostrorum If Adam had bene an Image of the diuels that is to saye of false or other Gods vndoubtedly he had bene to be reiected and vnworthy to be receiued But seeing that he is the Image of God he is to be honored and worthy to be admitted For euen so euery Image is holy that is made in the name of God be it an Image of the Angels or of the Prophetes or of the Apostles or of the Martyrs or of other iust persons Reply now vpon this answere if it be so vnapt and prosecute the former trifling obiection Neither againe is it the Councell which citeth that verse of the Psalme of hearing seing but a Deacon called Epiphanius Actio◠tom 1. readeth to the Councell a confutation that he him selfe as it séemeth made for Images against the booke of the Image breakers Synode and therein hauing shewed that the tradition of the Church alwaies vsed to paint Christes life as well as to reade the Gospell of it he descanteth by and by thereon both out of true Philosophie how that reading by the eare and painting by the eie ingender in the minde Vnam cognitionem qua ad recordationem rerū gestarum peruenitur One knowing wherby to come in remēbrance of the actes them selues also out of diuine scripture a Can◠where the bride desireth to see the face of her bridegrome not only to heare his voice where also we sing out of the b Psa◠Psalme As we haue heard so also haue we seen To this purpose he citeth those texts not to shew how God must be knowē as you pretēd but About the storie of Christes Manhood and mercifull actes therof neither to proue immediatly that the said storie must be painted but to declare that whereas it must be remembred the Church therfore hath done conueniently alwayes both to reade it and to paint it because both these together tend to one remembrance What is here for Momus to carpe or cauill at Let vs sée what more he hath of this sort for false interpretation of Scripture Beside these I will bring you saith he a sentence of holy Scripture not onely falsely interpreted in sence but also falsified in wordes and concerning not a small matter but euen one of the chiefe articles of our faith This ensample shall be a knocker I trow and without all redemption manifestly against some article of faith Let vs heare it then It is written in the .10 Chapter of the Gospell after S. Iohn the .29 verse My father which gaue them vnto me speaking of his sheepe is greater then all Cap. 2. This sentence hath the Councell of Laterane holden vnder Pope Innocent the third where were present 70. Metropolitanes 400. Bishops 12. Abbates and 800. Priors conuentualles in all .1300 Prelates falsified in wordes after this maner Pater quod dedit mihi maius est omnibus that is That which the father hath geuen me is greater then all This sentence they alleage to proue that God the father begetting his Sonne from euerlasting gaue his owne substance vnto him Why is that to proue a falsehood or the trueth your selfe séeme to haue confessed or no doubt you will confesse that it is to proue the trueth And yet what a doe you make about it for you say againe Goe your wayes now and perswade vs that your Church can not interprete any sentence of the Scripture falsely when the Laterane Councell which is your represented Church hath thus both falsified and falsely interpreted this Scripture And againe Perswade men that they may safely leane to the interpretation of your Churche when among a thousand and three hundred Prelates gathered Canonically in a Councell not one was founde that could espie such grosse abusing of the worde of God but let it passe in a Canon vnder the name of the whole Councell And yet once againe Perswade men that in all controuersies condemning of errors they must be reuealed by the determination of your Church when the Fathers of the Laterane Councell can not confute the error of Ioachim Abbot concerning the diuinitie of Christ but by falsifying and false interpreting of Scripture By this we may I thinke easily perswade the Reader that if you had in déede any matter against our Church you would both let vs heare it and also neuer haue done with it Why man here is no false determination any way nor no false interpretation in D. Allens sense and therfore also here is nothing to the purpose Yea I adde moreouer here is no false interpretation also in your owne sense that is to say no vnapt interpretation as
doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world so he tearmeth them whom he him selfe confesseth to haue bene the true Church for heretikes But you muste proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or else all your labour is in vayne Supra pag. 10. And for example more store the Reader may sée here in the third Chapter I will not dissemble saith he Aërius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they account for an error But neither of them both reproueth it by the Scripture Pur. 416. And the same againe in another place Nowe at the length commeth the author of this heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine But neither of them confuteth it by the Scriptures Pur. 426. And in an other place thus boldly For our parte it is sufficient that we knowe God in his holy word to be the first founder of our doctrine and therfore that they lye blasphemously which would make any heretike the author of it And therevpon he concludeth forsooth with great honestie saying Wherfore Ar. 44. if Aërius had not bene an Arrian this opinion could not haue made him an heretike Where to passe that blasphemie only this I say August ad quoduu in praef in epilogo that he séemeth not to know the purpose of S. Augustine in that booke De haeresibus ad quoduultdeum whiche he saith was likewise the purpose of Epiphanius not to coÌ„fute but only to report the heresies that had bene before his time and that not without great profite to the Reader Cum scire sufficiat c. because it is inough onely to know that the Catholike Churches iudgement is against these and that no man must receiue into his beliefe any one of these And agayne Multum adiuuat cor fidele c. It greatly helpeth the faithfull heart onely to know what must not be beleeued although he bee not able to confute it by disputing Loe then you faithfull heartes the case is so cleare Note â— seeke thâ— this conâ— of Fulkeâ— that the very aduersarie confesseth both that the same was the true Catholike Churche and also that it iudged Aerius to be an heretike helpe your selues therefore and make your profite of this confession assuring your selues vpon the Catholike Doctors lesson that séeing the Church was against Aerius the scripture could not be with him because one Spirit of truth speaketh both in the Church and in the Scripture As for Fulke and all that he here saith you sée it is no other then if Aerius Iouinianus or Vigilantius had said vnto you Aske my fellow whether I be a théefe Naught else it is that he there againe concludeth for those thrée heresiarkes saying Thus Ar 4â— you are not able to name any which preached any article of our doctrine but the same was consonant to the Scripture Of the same sort also in an other place Therefore M. Allen or Pur. 3â— S. Augustine rather if you will teach your Schollers to keepe vs at the baye as heretikes you must not teach them to bark and baule nothing but the Church the Church like tinkers curres O vvorâ— stimatioâ— he hath Church but you must instruct them to open cunningly out of the Scriptures how our doctrine is contrarie to the truth and yours agreeable to the same Againe like one that would appoint his enemie not to inuade him with a gunne because he knoweth not how to saue him selfe from the shotte of it but to take some other weapon that of his making in an other place he saith And especially in this controuersie Pur. 12 where either partie chargeth other with heresie howbeit I trow his partie chargeth not so S. Epiphanius S. Augustine though they so charge his Patriarke Aerius it had bene conuenient that the right definition or description of an heretike had bene first set downe that men might thereby haue learned who is iustly to be burdened with that crime For an heretike is he that in the Churche obstinately maintaineth an opinion that is contrarie to the doctrine of God conteined in the holy Scriptures which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared An herâ— a man in Church 〈◊〉 Fulk Fâ— a nobis 〈◊〉 Iohn Infra but condemned for Heretikes In déede if an Heretike be a man in the Churche you are cockesure and not only you and Aerius but Arrius Pelagius all other heretikes that euer were we rather with S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and such others in daunger To this place it belongeth that againe he sayeth Pur. 402. M. Allen giueth a speciall note that wee name not Iouinian or Vigilantius the playne auouchers of our opinions but rather labour to writh with plaine iniurie to the Author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that opened them selues to the world to beléeue the contrarie And thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mans authoritie or that any man or men were the Authors of our fayth wee should bee iniurious vnto them if we dyd not acknowledge our founders But seeing God him selfe is the Father of that doctrine which we haue receyued by his holy worde we are not ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith Onely the Canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writinges of all doctrine and the teachers thereof Pur. 409. Agayne And therefore it is but vayne bragging that you promyse to seeke out other Fathers of our perswasion then the Apostles of Christ by whose holy writinges we neuer refuse to be iudged For the Scripture is the onely high way to the truth with the guidance of Gods spirite And agayne You spend many wordes in vayne Pur. 412. to proâ—e that the first author of an opinion beyng found the opinion is found to be an heresie It shall bee graunted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of God And withall that whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately though he haue many authors before him yet he is neuerthelesse an Though iâ— be S. Augustine him selfe though he hold the foundation here cap. v. heretike And so much of their first authors founde out by vs as Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius and such other old heresiarches condemned he confesseth by the true Church of Christ but contrarie he saith to the Scriptures of Christ Now on the other side being vrged by D. Allen to finde in like maner our first Authors or els it will follow the Apostles to be our authors Pur. 391. heare what he saieth therevnto Must we finde out the authors of your heresies nay iustifie them your selues by the word
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
to wit by considering whether he agrée with them that are of God with them that receiued and kéepe the vnction or spirite of truth which was sent to the Church for euer with them that depart not after any Seducers but continue in that which they heard in the beginning as the Romanes do most manifestly no Antichrist nor Heretike being able to name the time the noueltie the Seducer that euer they went after so as Wittenberge Geneua England and all other that we charge with it haue done most notoriously This is the effect in generall of S. Iohns Epistles Agayne you alleage and say The word of the Lorde is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our féete Pur. 285.364 Psal 118.18 Therfore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Item The faithful testimonie of Gods word onely giueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith And by and by after you call it The onely authoritie of Gods word written But the Prophet neither hath the word onely neither saith that Gods word is not but in writing but rather most euidently by Gods worde there he meaneth the preaching of his Apostles Rom. 10. S. Paule also him selfe referring that verse of the same Psalme vnto them accordingly Into all the earth their sound is gone forth and their words to the ends of the world And so you may see the light of Gods word to be not only in writing but also in tradition by mouth Pur. 210. Last of all you alleage and say against Iudas Machabeus In the Law not so much as one pinne of the Tabernacle was omitted lest any thing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God Deut. 12. ver 8. 32. You shall not do saith the Lord what séemeth good in your owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that only shal you do without adding any thing to it or taking away any thing from it You are very dayntie of your quotations in maner none at all in your margin because you alleage so fewe places and commonly omitted in your texte also because you alleage your places without booke This is my coniecture let the Reader loke in the places as I doe quote them because for breuitie sake I omitte many thinges that were worth the noting Wel in this place Moises saith not That only which I do write but That only which I commaund you And so our Sauiour said long after to the Iewes accordingly Mat. 23. The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moises chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it and doe it As for the Pinnes of the Tabernacle they are so mentioned for other causes as you may sée in the Doctors Commentaries and not for the cause that you imagin that is to leaue nothing to any man afterwarde in the worship of God for how say you then by Dauid and Salamon who chaunged not only a pinne yea all the pinnes but also that whole Tabernacle building in stéed of it a Temple in Hierusalem and there ordeining musicall instrumentes and many other things for the worship of God that the law did not mention You alwayes erre because you do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humane spirite and men that haue the spirite of God as Moyses the Prophets the Apostles and the Catholike Church And so hauing answered al your places I would your Vnlearned Brother to know of it him that euery yere sendeth out the Newyeres giftes and what els I know not and to tell me now why I might not in my last Motiue call this your Castle of Onely Scripture Onely Scripture Your weake and false Castle Weake because you haue no defence at all for it neither of Srripture as I haue here declared neither of Doctor as in the nexte chapter I will declare False because not so much as one worde of Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the ende of the Apocalipse maketh for you in any thing nor against vs in any thing as in this Chapter I doe ynough to persuade therein any reasonable man and therefore it is but a false sleight of you Heretikes and a mere deception of the simple when you be ouerthrowen by Apostolike traditions by auncient Fathers and so by many other our weapons in Christe as in the laste Chapter your selfe haue confessed to sette a bolde face vpon it and vaunte that yet for all that the Scriptures be plainelye for you and plainely against vs. In which boldnes your impudencie cryeth euen to heauen when you dare yet vaunt thereof so farre to saye that the Church of God is faine therefore to blaspheme the holye Scriptures seeing them to make so plainely for you When you here in the laste Chapter and your Masters and Scholefelowes commonly in their writinges feare not to open your mouthes thus against Gods holy Tabernacle in earth I that am nothing and in very deede nothing and lesse then nothing may not disdaine the like opening at me by the foresaide Vnlearned but contenting me with mine owne conscience and the conscience of God him selfe and his Angels and all his Seruauntes that knowe me by my person or by my writings beeing moste certaine how alwayes in heart and worde I haue honored the most holy Scriptures euen as gods owne liuely and infallible worde I submit my selfe with Dauid in an humble and contrite heart to all that Semei hath or shall vtter against me if peraduenture my Lorde God most mercifull will accept it to forgeuenes of my manifold and heynous sinnes desiring of him no other reuenge but the parties conuersion and reconciliation to him and his swéete spouse my lieue Mother the Catholike Church And so muche in this place to that man In which place you also Fellow Fulke Arg. ab authoritate negatiuè may be admonished to looke better to your Logicke concerning your argument ab authoritate negatiuè that you oppose it no more to our so many argumentes ab authoritate affirmatiuè I gaue you a litle before two causes thereof consider them well I pray you All knowledge that Christian men haue of heauenly things you say Pur. 449. to mainteine your argument is grounded vpon the authoritie of Gods word meaning the Scripture Therefore as it is no good Logicke to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true So of the whole doctrine of God wherein all trueth necessary to saluation is conteined the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine Letting Purgatory alone till anone there are two faultes I say in this reasoning One because the Maior is false as to all your textes alleaged for it I haue answered The other because although the Maior were true yet can not the argument be
fulfilled that which was reuealed to S. Iohn in the twelfth of the Apocalipse The woman clothed with the sunne which you your selfe confesse to be the Church was so persecuted by the Dragon that she fledde into the wildernesse there to remayne * Idem etiam Ar. xxvij narrovvly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long season a long season So farre printed by you in the letter of the Scripture A world to sée your bolde blindnes You do so apply this prophecie onely because of the Popes Primacie which yet is a truth of the Gospell practised also notoriously in all ages as well afore Bonifacius the third as after him which two poyntes the Reader may sée euidently in the Seuenth booke of M. D. Saunders Monarchie yea by your selfe also confessed before the said Bonifacius and the Church the true Church notwithstanding your wordes I reported in the 3. Chapter Supra pag. yea moreouer your owne selfe do say Articulorum pagina 38 that All nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes for the Greeke Church and other orientall Churches neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and especially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie cleane contrarie to that which both the Scripture and also your selfe do hold of Antichrist and of his vniuersall exaltation as I shall lay your wordes together in the 11. Chapter amongest your other grosse contradictions And therefore you can not for the Popes authoritie so expound this prophecie As for that Summe of money you tell vs not what author you followe therein neither is the thing material vnlesse you wil condemne your owne side also of Antichristianisme for their infinite contributions to mainteine these Rebellions euery where whiche you call your Gospell But O Syr I pray you I thought séeing your goodly promises in the last Chapter that to finde out the meaning of a text of Scripture you would haue brought vs nothing but Scripture and so cleare Scripture that by no suttletie it might be auoyded Howe is it then that nowe you bring nothing but your owne conceites Yea furthermore how is it that to make a shewe of a texte which you saw not to be with you but playne against you you corrupt the text For by your opinion Antichrist raigned in the world and the Church continued in the wildernes Ar. 36.79 The time of the Churches being in the vvildernesse the space of 807. yeres from the yere .607 the time of Bonifacius the third to the yere 1414. béeing the time of the Constance Councell and of Iohn Hus your supposed great Grandfather All this while you say Christ hath preserued her now to bring her out of her secret place in the wildernesse into the open sight of the world agayne And therefore you make the text to say here before that being persecuted by the Dragon she fled into the wildernes Falsification most detestable there to remayne a long season But the text hath the cleane contrary a very short season to wit but thrée yeres and a halfe These are the words truely reported as Catholikes are wout to do And the woman fugiebat Apoc. 12. fled into the wildernes where she had a place prepared of God that they may there feede her 1260. dayes And the same againe a litle after And to the woman were geuen two wings of a great Eagle Vt volaret that she might flye whether this be flying in body as you say or in mind as I say into the wildernes vnto her place where she is fedde one time and two times and halfe a time from the face of the Serpent Where is now your long season your 807. yeres VVhether Antichrist should come An. 607. Apoc. 12. Your folly will agayne be manifest if I report the truth of the Dragons persecution because you make it to haue bene in the time of Bonifacius An. 607. But what saith the Scripture First that great Dragon is the olde Serpent called the Diuel and Satan the Seducer of the whole world But Christ in consideration of his passion then at hande and the conuersion of the world immediatly ensuing therevpon saide of him Now is the iudgement of the world Ioan. 12. Mat. 12. now shall the prince of this worlde be expelled And the same in the Apocalypse in these moste euident wordes Apoc. 12. And he tooke the Dragon and he bounde him the space of a thousande yeres and he cast him into the bottomlesse pitte and he shutte and sealed vpon him that he should no more deceiue the Nations or the Gentiles vntill the thousande yeres were consummate So expresly to confounde you vtterly with your impious Gospell of Caluenisme who set the loosing of the Dragon the comming of Antichrist his persecution and the Churches desolation which all do go together at the yere 607. The time of Antichristes raigning It followeth as expresly And after this he must be loosed modico tempore for a litle season And the same agayne And when the thousande yeres be consummate Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and he shall goe foorth and shall seduce the Nations which are vpon the foure corners of the earth Gog and Magog and shall gather them vnto battayle whose number is as the sande of the sea And they ascended vpon the latitude of the earth and compassed rounde the campe of the Holy ones and the Citie beloued But all in vayne and to their owne destruction for Fire descended from God out of heauen and deuoured them and the diuell who seduced them was caste into the lake of fire and brimstone where also the Beast that is Antichrist and his notable falseprophet shal be tormented day and night for euer and euer That which the Apocalypse here calleth Consummation The consummation of the thousand yeres the Gospell that no man be deceiued calleth it Consummationē seculi The consummation of the world Mat. 24. Mar. 13. and meaneth thereby that Modicum tempus litle season aforesaid For so the Apostles asking our Sauiour What signe shall there be of thy comming and the consummation of the world He answereth and telleth them of sundry things which must be Sed nondum est finis but the consummation notwithstanding is not yet What then Mary This Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in the vniuersall world for witnesse to all Nations Et tunc veniet consummatio and then shal come the consummation And in the short season of the consummation what shal be Tribulatio magna and Seductio magna So great a persecution and so great a Seducing that the Elect also would not be saued but that for their sakes Breuiabuntur dies illi Those dayes shall be shorter then any man would thinke it possible séeing the Persecutors greatnes onely thrée yeres and a halfe Statim autem post tribulationem dierum illorum And straight after the persecution of those short dayes there shall be maruailous alterations in the heauens
passing similitude betwene you them in the smoke in the horses in the whole Anatomie of the Locustes and aboue all in the like destroying and sacrilegious wast of Gods Churches and their sacred vessell and holy ornamentes which they shall make in all places as vnto you is permitted of God onely in some places The desolation The like is séene in the Desolation made by you to be made hereafter by Antichrist him selfe it is euen al one and the same but that he shall do vniuersally that which you may not doe but here there he in all the Churches of the world casting out the holy Sacrifice of the Masse with all diuine seruice therevnto belonging as you haue done in all the Churches of Englande and wheresoeuer els you are permitted to set Sedem Satanae your Satanicall seate As he also shall in place of the foresaid dayly Sacrifice bring in his Abomination Abhomination euen him selfe and his Image to be in all Churches adored aboue all Diuinitie O most abhominable desolation So haue you likewise not only made desolation of the Sacrifice but also in stead therof set vp euery where your abhomination of Luthers Caluines inuention the Images also of kings armes in the very place of the most swéete and most glorious Roode yea the Image of a vile Grashopper in a Church that is well knowen in the very place where afore did stande Gods Crucifixe I say not that this is the very selfe Abomination of Antichrist but I say and I say boldly that none other of the olde figures thereof was euer more liuely more nigh more like vnto it not the Idols or Statuees of Iupiter set vp in the Temple by Antiochus in the vmbraticall desolation of that time béeing the time of the Machabées nor the like of certaine Romane Emperours in the vmbratical desolation of their time nor any thing in the sundry vmbraticall desolations by diuerse heresies which S. Basil and other of the holy Fathers haue as it were Ieremies lamentation again pitifully recorded You haue I say in this your vmbraticall desolation pricked beyonde them al approching in the very kind of desolation so much nearer then any to the desolation of Antichrist as you do in time so ioyntly so identically that you haue represented vnto vs a plaine example how a thing it selfe may be a shadow or a figure of the same thing it selfe onely differing in some maner And therefore séeing it hath bene Prophecied that one certayne heresie and that towards the end should so farre pricke beyond all other heresies Apoc. 8. according also to the fourth Trumpet béeing compared with the third that it should be not onely an heresie but also a playne Apostasie whether the same be not this present heresie of yours let the world iudge I do not charge you as you do vs by bare wordes vayne crakes yea and falsifications of the text but I alleage playne Scriptures and I alleage them truly and I conferre diuers places together that one may expoūd another which you are wont to talke so much of but you in talke onely and we in déede Besides much more that I haue if I were the opponent here and not the answerer to proue your Apostasie and that in all the thrée species of Apostasie béeing these Apostasie from Religion Monasticall Apostasie from holy Orders Apostasie from our Christian faith Chalenging you otherwise to ioyne with me vpon my last Demaund in my booke of 51. Demaundes which concerneth your said Apostasie Therfore such being your Newinuented Gospell in this time of the fourth Trumpet no doubt they that embrace the same A Gospell paedagogue to Antichrist wil as readily embrace the next in the time of the fifth Trumpet and againe as readily much more readily embrace Antichrist him selfe in the time of the Churches sixth Trumpet Angelicall For whom and what will not they beléeue which without all proofe yea against so euident Scriptures onely vpon your bold and impudent asseuerations being men so impotent so vnlearned euen in the Scriptures also and so notorious and confessed wicked liuers haue beleued that Christes Vicar and therfore in effect that Christ himselfe is Antichrist that Christes Church the woman clothed with the sunne the new and glorious citie of Hierusalem cōming downe from heauen is the (a) Fulke Ar. 33.38.57.100.102.106 and Pur. 287.298.336.391.409.460 Synagogue of Antichrist the great whore and citie of Babylon No my masters no it wil neuer be Gods elect do to wel know the piller that alwais hath and still must hold them vp in truth euen agaynst the mightie seductions of Antichrist himself of his (b) Apo. 13.16 singular falseprophet and of his thrée lesser and all his other inferiour falseprophetes much more against you And therefore it is not your ignorant and absurd detorting deprauing as the (c) 2. Pet. 3. first of Christes Vicars did tearme it when he gaue vs warning of such felowes of the womans gorgeous garments nor of the seuen hills that can deceiue them no more then the false deprauing of the womans flight whereof I haue already spoken for they know to distinguish the Gorgeous garments vsed always in Gods diuine seruice which your king Abaddon maketh wast and hauocke of The gorgeous garments from the gorgeous prophane garmentes and infinite vayne pompe that the world of the wicked triumpheth in Infra ca. 10 Dema. 21. They know also by the commentarie which the Scripture it selfe maketh what are both the Seuen heades Apo. .17 or Seuen hilles and also the Tenne hornes to wit that they all be kings not the Catholike kings which haue and do so humbly adore our Sion and licke the very dust of her feete knowing that the nation kingdom which serueth not her shal surely perish Esay 49. and 60. but the kings that are with the world against the said Church and people of God So saith the Scripture The seuen heades and hilles The Seauen heades are seuen hilles vpon which the woman sitteth and they are seuen Kings And marke the diuision of them quinque ceciderunt Fiue of them are fallen Who therefore are all the persecuting kings in the time of the Olde Testament before the comming of Christ before the time when this was spoken Vnus est One presently is Who therfore is meant of the Romaine Emperours and al other kings persecuting with them Alius nondum venit c. The other is not yet come and when he commeth he must remayne not a long season as the fiue and as the one but a short season onely thrée yeres and a halfe Who euidently is Antichrist in proper person There haue you playnly the Seuen Now touching the other Tenne this saith the Scripture The ten hornes And the tenne hornes are tenne kings which like as hath bene said of Antichrist haue not yet taken kingdome but they shal take power as kings vna hora post
Apoc. 3. And if you yet doubt by what they ouercome whether by the Lambes bloud alone or also by theyr owne patient confession or affliction vnto death it is written there agayne And they ouercame the diuell by the bloud of the Lambe and by their owne martirdome dia â—on logoâ—â—es martyriâ—s auâ—on and loued not their life euen vnto death Apoc. 12. And S. Paule accordingly calleth it 2. Cor. 4. the mortification of Iesus when the Apostles were mortified for Iesus and saith they carried the same about continually in their bodies that also the life of Iesus might be manifested in their selfe same bodies at the latter day which is the same thing that the Apocalipse calleth to appeare before the throne in white stoles Wherby you sée that as the bloud of Christ so by it martyrdome also worketh such glory For so it foloweth there again This our affliction although it is but short and light operatur worketh vs euerlasting weight of glory exceding measure aboue measure Because affliction here for Iesus doth so wash our stoles or bodies therefore it procureth that they shal be so glorious in the Resurrection this say these Scriptures And so much of the foundations and by occasion of them Now to Purgatorie it selfe and prayer for the dead Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe and praier for the dead whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Limbus patrum Directly against Purgatory prayer for the dead you shoote diuers arrowes or rather cockshotles so deadly are the woundes that your shot doth make First you will proue by many and euident Scriptures that all the Elect do go yea and alwayes from the beginning of the world haue gone straight to heauen therefore neuer no Purgatory neuer no Limbus Patrum Whiche if you can do your skill in the Scripture no doubt farre passeth all the auncient Doctors were they neuer so wel studied therin For they all could not finde so muche as one text that all or any one also went to heauen before Christ yea and not many textes Vide Sander monar li. 7. pag. 518.520 Pur. 57. that any one after him also goeth thither before the generall Resurrection but rather very many textes that vntill the Church within these 300. yeres defined the contrarie made it very probable that none are there till then Well thus you begin That the Fathers of the Old law before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest argumentes and authorities out of holy Scriptures But first you thinke necessary to answere one text that stoode in your way saying Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednesse God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs should not be made perfect Heb. 11. By that they of the old Testament wer not made perfect or consummate without vs of the new Testament S. Paule there doth meane euidently that their Soules were not yet admitted into heauen As in that whole Epistle he sheweth that the Old Testament did consummate nothing but contrariwise Heb. 7. Heb. 10. Heb. 9. that it made continually euery yere a commemoration of their sinnes because they remayned still and were not perfectly remitted and therefore that Christe dyed In Redemptionem earum praeuaricationum quae erant sub priore Testamento To buye out the preuarications that were all that while that so at length the heires might attayne the euerlasting inheritance which was promised Heb. 9. Nondum enim propalatam esse Sanctorum viam adhuc priore tabernaculo habente statum For the way into Sancta or heauen was not yet opened vntill the high Priest Iesus entred first thereinto Heb. 10. qui initiauit nobis viam nouam It was he that beganne this newe waye vnto vs who nowe therefore haue fiduciam in introitu Sanctorum Confidence to enter in after him béeing our forerunner into the same Sancta And all this is spoken of our Soules As for our bodies neither yet is the way open vnlesse Sancta were open when onely the High priest entred into them This was the prouidence of God for vs that we should not thinke we come to late if the Fathers soules had beene admitted in before vs. Confer the end of your owne text with the beginning of it Heb. 11. vt non consummarentur and non acceperunt repromissionem Sée how plainly he expoundeth their not consummating to be their not attayning of the promise And what promise Heb. 9. Confer this other place vt repromissioneÌ„ accipiant aeternae haereditatis That the heires might attayne the promise of euerlasting inheritance I might at large declare the same by the whole course of Scripture as D. Allen saith very well but that I am not here to alleage Pur. 439. but only to answere Well then against these most manifest Scriptures let vs heare the manifest authorities of Scripture which you pretend Pur. 57.58 For you say Seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life and entred not into condemnation but passed from death to life Io. 5. To what life but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntill the last day all the dead are in death but then some shall come forth into resurrection of life some others into resurrection of damnation but he that beleeueth in me hath that is most certainly shall then haue Iohn 11. life euerlasting and commeth not into damnation but passeth from death wherein he hath so long bene to life This is the playne text of that place As likewise in all the New Testament lightly euery where life after corporall death signifieth the resurrection of the bodies where the soules be in the meane time here is neuer a word no nor of the Saintes of the old Testament afore the institution of Baptisme wherevnto beliefe in him giueth now accesse Ioa. 1. and 3 that belieuing in him they may haue life Io. 20. But their state we must gather out of other places of holy Scripture And to what end againe you say was Christ called the Lamb that was slayne from the beginning of the world but that the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike This is your expounding of Scripture by Scripture you are a true man of your word The place is Apo. 13. Whose names were not written in the booke of life of the Lambes that was slaine froÌ„ the beginning of the world CoÌ„ferring it with this place Apo. 17. Whose names were not written in the booke of life from the beginning of the world you perceiue the error of your coÌ„struction It is not said that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobate shall adore Antichrist when he commeth as the Gospell also saith Mat. 24. that the Elect also should be then deceiued if it were possible Neuerthelesse that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world is true though not in your fond
is no water no nor made of water How much more then might Melchisedeches bread and wine be a figure of it although there be no bread nor wine in it coÌ„sidering that yet of bread and wine it is made yea and so reteineth still the same formes of bread and wine that he could say vnto vs Take eate it and drinke it O most swéete Iesus in déede thou hast the words of life euerlasting omnipotent sonne of God omnipotent Whosoeuer go to Caluine it is good for vs to sticke to thée who giuest vs such a meate and in so vsuall so naturall so swéete a maner Mariage of Votaries of Bishops Priests Deacons One Sacrament more and then an end of this long Chapter Mariage For mariage of Votaries as Friar Luther and Catharine his Nunne with such like because we say it is sinne and no Mariage Pur. 391. 20.22 he sayeth that we are the forbidders of Mariage that S. Paule speaketh of 1. Tim. 4. You are they sayth he that attend to spirites of error and doctrines of diuels forbidding to marrie and absteining from meates and so forth as I recited a litle afore about Abstinence where I shewed that the Apostle there noteth the Eucratites Manichées and such other heretikes that taught fleshmeat and wine to come of the diuel and not of God And likwise that they condemned Marriage in it selfe for they sayd that our bodies also are of the diuel and therefore the propagation of them by Mariage to be his seruice And yet they durst such is the impudency of Heretiks charge the Catholiks for their Nunnes to be prohibentes nubere those forbidders of Mariage that S. Paule speaketh of Aug. cont Faustum Manich. li. 30. ca. 6.4 But S. Augustine answereth them Fulke at once saying Ille prohibet nubere qui hoc malum esse dicit He forbiddeth to marry that saith it is a naughtie thing as did those Heretikes non qui huic bono aliud melius anteponit and not he which to this good thing preferreth another better thing that is virginitie to Mariage as the Catholikes now do and also then did and that so peremptorily that they counted Iouinian an heretike as we do the Protestants for the contrarie A Iouiniano quodam Monacho ista haeresis orta est Aug Haer. 82. Retr li. 2. ca. 22. sayth S. Augustine This heresie did spring of one Iouinian being a Monke Virginitatem Sanctimonialium the virginitie of Nunnes and the continence of the mansex in holy persons choosing the single life he said to be no more meritorious then chast and faithfull Matrimonies In so much that certayne sacred Virgins of good yeres in the Citie of Rome where he taught this geare hearing him are said to haue married but no Priest could he deceiue For the holy Churche which is there did most faithfully most manly withstande this monster and quickly oppressed and extincted his heresie Yet commeth Fulke so long after raketh the ashes thinketh he hath found a sparkle Ar. 45. and saith If Iouinian taught that suche as could not conteine though they had vowed virginitie should neuerthelesse be maried this was the doctrine of S. Paule It is better to marrie then to burne Pur. 22.32 Am. ad Vir Laps ca. 5. Agayne where D. Allen sayth How can they for sinne and shame honour that with the name of holy mariage that S. Ambrose termeth Aduoutrie S. Augustine worse then Aduoutry and they with all the residue of Doctours horrible incest He replyeth Aug. de bono vid. c. 8. The holy Ghost hath taught vs to call mariage honorable in all men and the bed vndefiled whatsoeuer any man hath said to the contrarie and to allow mariage in them that cannot conteine although they haue vowed virginitie because It is better to mary then to burn Thus he alleageth Scriptures for heretikes against Gods Church as he confesseth it was and against the fathers thereof But howe doth he proue his interpretations of those Scriptures out of other Scriptures as he promised No I warrant you he is alwais like him selfe a clowde without water Let vs then following our fathers steppes confer a litle to finde the true sense First what is to burne To be troubled with the pricking of the flesh say the heretikes Not so saye we for S. Paule him selfe was troubled much with such pricking 2. Cor. 12. and yet he was not bidde to marry when he prayed so instantly agaynst it but it was sayde vnto him by Christ My grace is sufficient for thee for my strength is perfited in infirmitie that is where one acknowlegeth his infirmitie and séeketh to me for strength there do I most strongly worke A notable ensample thereof is S. Augustine reade his confessions how impossible he thought it afore to liue without a woman Aug. conf li. 6. ca. 15. li. 8. c. 12 and how perfitly he was afterwarde chaunged by grace As also millions of millions in the Catholike Church haue experience in them selues néeding therfore no other argument against you al but their own conscience to condemne your brutish assertion of such impossibilitie What is it then to burne or to be burned we néede not to séeke farre S. Paule himselfe telleth vs it is non continere not to conteyne Marke the wordes If they do not conteine them let them marry for of the two it is better to marry then not to conteine or to be burned And the same as plain in your other place Heb. 13. Mariage is honorable in all and the bed that is matrimoniall copulation vndefiled for fornicators and aduowters God will iudge Conferre all this and what saith he else but Let the married â—olke vse their owne bedde haue their owne wiues rather then defile another mans bed commit aduowtrie with another mans wife And let the vnmarried folke enter into mariage rather then not to conteine to burne to commit fornication Now to what vnmaried folke he saith this let vs also trye by conference as the Fathers haue done before vs. To them also which haue vowed virginitie say the Heretikes Not so saith S. Augustine Aug. de bono vid. ca. 8 De aedul con li. 1. ca. 15. 1. Tim. 5. but quae se non continent c. They which do not conteine them let them marry before they professe continencie before they vowe it to God for after they haue vowed vnles they performe it they be iustly damned And what other place doth he coÌ„ferre to proue this Alio quippe c. For in another place he saith of such Cum enim in delitijs egerint in Christo When the young widowes haue liued delicately in or against Christ vpon the Churches charges they will marry hauing therof damnation quoniam primam fidem irritam fecerunt Because they haue made frustrate their first faith or troth that is saith S. Austine from the purpose of continencie they haue deflected their will to mariage For frustrate
they made that faith and troth wherwith they had vowed afore the thing which they would not fulfil with perseuerance So smoothly and gently doth the text folow this coÌ„struction as yet also more playnly you shall sée if you conferre nubere volunt with this that followeth Iam enim quaedam conuerâ—ae sunt retro satanam As if he had said but what do I say They will marry They will play the Apostates Yea already some are turned backe after Satan Therfore I say of these yong widowes admit them not to vow Doth he not hereby euidently expound him selfe that in suche widowes to marry he calleth to turne backe after Satan Agayne in saying Let a widowe be admitted no lesse then three score yere olde and refuse the yonger ones I will that they marry Doth he not playnely signifie that the admitted may not marry and therefore the young ones bicause they will marry after their admission do incurre damnation This is our conference of the text it selfe with it selfe But in commeth Fulke and will néedes for all that haue it meante of the faith of Baptisme and Christianitie Pur. 147. because S. Paule in the same Chapter saith of another matter that who so neglecteth to prouide for his owne familie hath denyed the faith meaning the faith of a Christian man Specially because he calleth this that we speake of the first faith Neither is pistâ—s in the Scripture vsed for a vow oâ— promise Why do not you say your selfe that both there and once afore in the same Chapter it is vsed for the vow or promise made in Baptisme And can you remember neuer a place where the faith of God is the promise of God looke Rom. 3. Who hath not heard of the thrée good thinges in mariage that S. Augustine talketh so much of Fides Proles Sacramentum faith or troth yssue and Sacrament And where you triumph in your owne conceite against S. Augustines most naturall and most certaine exposition as though by it the first faith is expounded for the last vow now sir thus the text ruÌ„neth They wil marry that is fidem dare make promise betroth them selues to another husband to a mortall man and therefore to be damned because in so doing they haue broken their first faith that is the promise that they made the troth that they plighted afore to their husband Christ in their admission among these widowes What absurditie what inconsequence is in this let any man iudge whether hangeth better together it or the exposition of your companions that D. Allen chargeth them with to wit She that breaketh her faith of Baptisme shall be damned for mariage which you say is a cauill and not worth a rush What then is your exposition That belike hangeth exactly Thus you say S. Paule saith not she shall be damned for mariage but because she hath reiected the first faith that is suche wanton young huswifes proceede so farre that at length they forsake widowhood Chritianitie and all Lo Fulke it goeth hard vvith you your selfe are compelled to graunt that which you denied to wit that they shall be damned because they forsake widowhood and how forsake they widowhood but by marrying Ergo S. Paule saith they shall be damned for marrying So vnuincible is the texte in our exposition One texte more you alleage about mariage Pur. 17.25 to salue your Bishops ytching lust who as though it were annexum ordini saith D. Allen very aptely must out of hand for the most parte haue a wife whereas yet neuer from the Apostles time to this day Not one Mark it vvell any one Bishop or priest that is confessed to haue bene a good one did marry afterwards neither for all Iouinians plausible argumentes no not Iouinian him selfe What haue you then to defend yours withall that are so coÌ„trarie to all others A Bishop is not perfect vvith Fulke vnlesse he haue a vviâ—e Belike say you S. Paule taketh mariage to be so annexed to the order of an Ecclesiasticall minister that he neuer descrbeth the perfect paterne of a Bishop or Deacon but one of the first pointes is that he be the husband of one wife Belike you know not nor care not what you say for you should haue gathered the cleane contrarie if you had looked what he meneth by the husband of one wife A Bishop saith he must be the husband of one wife 1. Tim. 3. A Priest the husband of one wife 1. Tim. 3. The meaning thereof you might haue learned 1. Tim. 5. where he coÌ„maundeth about the choosing of a professed widow and saith quae fuit vnius viri vxor Let her be such a one as hath bene the wife of one husband So then he requireth in a Bishop Priest or Deacon to be made that he haue had onely one wife How much better then if he haue had none but is a virgin This you should haue gathered of his words and you gather the cleane contrarie that néedes he must haue had a wife or els if he be a virgin he swarueth from the perfect paterne yea more absurdly not that he must haue had one but that he must presently haue one for of that D. Allen did speake and to that you alleage S. Paule And thus gentle Reader I haue with Gods assistance gone through all the Scriptures reseruing onely a few to other places which this Heretike alleageth in his two bookes for any matter against the Catholike Church and answered euery one of them so clearly that I trust thou art fully satisfied and doest perceiue playnely that he had no cause to bragge of Scripture as in the last Chapter he did most insolently saying still an end that he cared not what was against him séeing Scripture was so expresly with him But he may and it please God who is most mercifull by this occasion better bethinke him selfe and leaue his kicking agaynst the pricke that is against our Lorde Iesus in his Church Act. 9. specially vnderstanding by this litle as he may sufficiently that much more either he or any other of his side should be throughly satisfied in all euery thing if he were present here with vs to sée and heare our dayly conference in the Scriptures as very many of his side yea and Ministers aboue a dosen diuers of them being also of no vulgar wittes haue come already haue heard our examining of the Bible specially of the New Testament ouer and ouer haue asked obiected replied whatsoeuer they liste haue to euery thing bene so well answered the prayse is Gods and his Catholike truthes and on the other side so hardly posed all I say out of the holy Scripture it selfe that euer after a few dayes they haue had more list to heare then to speake specially seacute eing vs at euery text to alleage sincerely for their side whatsoeuer they could and more then they could them selues and now are euerie one of them become so firme so sure so perfitte
the dead these two places of S. Hieromes are all that he alleageth Now touching Scriptures that we alleage for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead it is good although it be not necessary vnlesse he can fortify his new castellet of Onely Scripture better then yet he hath done to examine whether the Doctors do say as he pretendeth either generally that no Scripture at all maketh for Purgatory prayer for the dead or so much as namely this place or that place doth not Whether the Doctors say no Scripture to make for it For the first Tertullian speaking no more but of the Oblations for the dead which we make vpon their yeres mindday saith Tertul. de corona Militis Huius disciplinae si legem expostules Scripturarum nullam inuenies For this discipline if thou require a lawe out of the Scriptures thou shalt finde none Traditio tibi praetendetur autrix Consuetudo confirmatrix Fides obseruatrix Tradition shal be declared to be the author of it Custome the corfirmer Faith the obseruer Nowe commeth Fulke which also I noted in the third Chapter and for this one particuler is bold to say generally Par. 2. diu 3 that all offering and all praying for the dead is confessed of Tertullian to be beside the Scripture As where he saith Pur. 264. They that is S. Chrysostome with some other old Doctors as also nowe their Successors the Catholikes labour to wrest the Scriptures to find that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be founde in them Pur. 268. Againe Tertullian hath discharged you of authoritie of the Scripture already Againe Tertullian as wise a man as M. Allen Pur. 275. affirmeth as we heard before that prayer for the dead hath no foundation in the Scriptures Againe Pur. 286. Neuer once mentioned in the Scripture and so confessed by Tertullian one that leaned to some part of your cause Againe Pur. 393. He vtterly denieth that they came from the Scriptures Therfore by Tertullians iudgemēt you do abuse the Scriptures Agayne Pur. 410. Praying and offering for the dead as Tertullian himselfe confesseth is not taught by the Scriptures Yet soone after to shew that Tertullian with Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes amongest other poyntes of his opinion he noteth Pur. 417. that all small offences must as he thought be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be paide Mat. 5. But reseruing that to the eleuenth chapter as one of his grosse contradictions I will here note how vpon the foresaid particular of only Tertullian he is farre more bold then yet we haue heard Pur. 363. For thus he saith They them selues that is the old Doctors for the most part confesse that prayer oblation for the dead is not taken at all out of the Scriptures Pur. 435. as Tertullian Augustine and other Againe Of them amongst the auncient Fathers that mainteined prayers for the dead the most confessed they had it not out of the Scriptures but of tradition of the Apostles and custome of the Church They denied it to be receiued of the scriptures This he saith of S. Augustine by name and withall of the most part of the fathers hauing in his whole booke no such saying of any other neither euen that of Tertullians importing so much but only as I haue declared So then haue I shewed that he fayleth in this that he braggeth of the Doctors confessing against them selues and vs as though generally no Scripture at all doth make for Purgatory or prayer for the dead Now let vs come to particuler Scriptures Thus he sayth Of certayne particuler textes Pu. 103. S. Augustine although otherwise inclining to the error of Purgatory yet he is cleare that this texte 1. Cor. 3. of him that shall be saued through fire proueth it not neither ought to be expounded of it and that he sheweth by many reasons Enchirid ad Laur. ca 68. where he affirmeth that by the fire is ment the triall of tribulation in this life You say that he affirmeth it but he saith that it is an harde place and with doubtfulnesse speaketh accordingly Non absurdè accipi possunt So may this and this be interpreted not absurdly And where you say he is cleare that this texte proueth not Purgatorie and agayne that it ought not to be expounded of it and agayne that he sheweth the same by many reasons All is false No such matter Onely he sheweth that it ought not to be expounded after the Heresie of the Origenistes of hell fyre as though they that be in it may at the length be saued and that it may be expounded of the fyre of tribulation in this life Yea moreouer he sayth expresly that it may be expounded also of some other like fire after this life cleane contrarie to that whiche you here reporte of him though in other places you also your selfe contrarie to your selfe do reporte the same Whereof I shall anone haue occasion to say more in the third diuision of this chapter This is the onely place of all that D. Allen doth alleage for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead which Fulke pretendeth any Doctor to say that it ought not to be expounded thereof But where he sayth thus speaking of D. Allen Pur. 145. For my part I will not refuse to satisfie his demaunde He will knowe and haue vs aposed from whence wee haue that newe meaning of our Sauiours wordes that he whiche is caste into prison for neglecting of reconciliation while he is in the way Mat. 5. is caste into hell from whence he shall neuer come and then alleageth for that sense Chrysostome Augustine Hierome and Chromatius This I saye is passing childishe althoughe it were true as it is not that all those Doctours haue that sense for D. Allen demaundeth no suche thing reade his wordes whosoeuer will Yea straight after reciting the Protestantes obiection That the places of the Olde and Newe Testament Pur. 148.151 alleaged for Purgatorie though they be thus expounded of the Doctors for Purgatorie yet sometimes they be construed otherwise by the Fathers them selues I answere to this he sayth and freely confesse it For that is not the question betwéene vs whether the Fathers haue expounded those textes of other poyntes of our Catholike faith for if they haue what maketh that agaynst vs but this whether they haue expounded those textes for Purgatorie which if they haue that maketh with vs and whether they haue expounded them or anye other agaynst Purgatorie which if they haue that maketh with you As for the diuersitie of true senses the Churche hath euer giuen roome saith D. Allen to the Expositors according to euery ones gifte onely prouided that no man of singularitie father any falsehood vpon any text Howbeit also euery ones true sense is not alwayes the very right and proper sense of that same text Whereof I spoke
more playnely in the sixt Chapter But Fulke replieth to this and saith Wheras M. Allen alloweth all the interpretations that the Fathers haue made of the text 1. Cor. 3. by him alleaged as true so long as they affirmed no error he may by the same reason affirme that Contradictories are true As in that saying Mat. 5. of him that shall not come out vntill he haue payd the vttermost farthing some haue expounded that he shal be alwaies punished some that he shall not be alwaies punished How is it possible that both these interpretations can be true Mary thus it is true those He He are not one He but He that shal be alwaies punished is he that to the end of the way that is of this life agréeth not with his aduersarie whom he had deadly iniuried as saying vnto him Fatue and thereby incurring the gilt of Gehenna ignis which is the prison of the damned He that shall not be alwaies punished is he whose iniurie was but veniall Cap. 8. par 3. diui 2. as Racha And so both interpretations agrée wel not onely together but also with the text it selfe as likewise in the last chapter I declared And so much of the Doctors interpretations Now to the other kind of their Testimonies which he alleageth against vs about any of our Controuersies Secondly whether the Doctors geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. j About the Bookes of Machabees And first although it be but a by matter whether the Machabees be Canonicall Scripture or no because the last thing that I intreated of was the Scriptures that be of purgatorie and the Protestantes denie the Machabées for this expresse saying 2. Mac. 12. It is an holy and healthfull meaning to pray for the dead that they may be released of their sinnes And touching this matter he alleageth no Doctor Pur. 214. but onely S. Hierome in two places The answere wherof D. Allen gaue before and that rightly and truly as we shall well perceaue if first we remember what he alleaged for the other part Fulke briefly both reporteth it also replieth vnto it in these wordes M. Allen pretendeth to proue the booke of Machabees Canonicall by authoritie of the Church See cap. 11. coâ—ad 35 when he can not by consent that it hath with the Scriptures of God As though all bookes are Canonicall Scripture which haue consent with the Scriptures The Machabées in déed haue so as also innumerable bookes of Catholike writers and Caluins Institutions too I trow But the Churches authoritie and not such Consent it is that proueth them Canonical The Churches authoritie for the Machabes And the Churches authoritie D. Allen bringeth out of the third Carthage Councell whiche Fulke in his answere saith was a Prouinciall Councell but he must remember that in the 4. Chapter to proue the whole true Church to erre he told vs that this Prouinciall Synode hath the authoritie of a Generall Councell because it was confirmed in the Sixt Generall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo And therfore he cannot auoid it but that the Machabées are Canonicall by authoritie of the whole true Church and therfore in déede also Canonicall if any Scripture at all and specially such as was euer by any doubted of be Canonicall whether the true Church may erre or no. And therfore againe he doth but labour in vaine to shew that the Carthage Councell did erre in that Canon because it nameth among the Canonicall Scriptures also fiue bookes of Salomon whereas the Church sayth Fulke as though he had not confessed this Councell to be the Church as much as any other alloweth but three namely the Prouerbes the Preacher and the Canticles Not knowing what S. Augustine that was one of that Councell as Fulke him selfe saith writeth as it were of purpose to geue vs the meaning of that Councell and of others likewise speaking where he also reconeth vp all the same Canonicall Scriptures as the Councell doeth Au. de doc christ lib. 2. cap. 8. And three bookes of Salomon sayth hée the Prouerbes the Canticles of Canticles and Ecclesiastes For those two bookes the one intituled Wisdome the other Ecclesiasticus de quadam similitudine Salomonis esse dicuntur for a certaine likenes are saide to be Salomons although in déede the be not his but Ecclesiasticus is Iesus Siraches and Sapientia is an incertaine authors Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 4. as S. Augustine partely in the same place partly in his Retractations doth say Againe saith Fulke Pur. 215.457 Aug. con 2 Gaudentij Ep. li. 2. c. 23 for an other answere to the Carthage Councell in what sense they did call those bookes Canonicall appeareth by Augustine that was one of that Councell And this Scripture of the Machabees non habent Iudaei sicut c. The Iewes compt not as the Law and the Prophetes and the Psalmes What then Here you see saith Fulke that Augustine howsoeuer he alloweth those bookes yet he alloweth them not in ful authoritie with the law Prophets and Psalmes That which S. Augustine reporteth of the Iewes he ascribeth to S. Augustine him selfe Although also it follow in Augustine immediatly Sed recepta est ab Ecclesia But it is receiued of the Church not vnprofitably if it be soberly read and heard Which wordes also Fulke there alleageth with this note that S. Augustine alloweth not these bookes If Fulke be sober the Machabees are Gods vvord If he be not vvhose fault is that 2. Peter 2. without condition of sobrietie in the reader or hearer As though he allowed no booke of Scripture in ful authoritie because both he all other Catholikes with S. Péeter do require the same condition in the reader of the whole Scriptures that he wrest them not like a madde man to his owne damnation as all heretikes do and as the Donatistes did compting them selues Martyrs if they killed them selues and mainteining it with the example of Razias out of the Machabées to which S. Augustine there answereth He that would in déede know in what sense S. Augustine and his Councell call those bookes Canonicall let him consider that vnder one name of Canonicall they recken at once these with all the other Holy bookes of both Testaments Au. 2. doc christ 8. Totus Canon Scripturarum his libris continetur The whole Canon of the Scriptures is conteined in these bookes Fiue of Moises that is Conc. Cart. 3. Can. 47. Genesis c. sayth S. Augustine And the Councell in like maner Sunt autem canonicae Scripturae and the Canonical Scriptures are these Genesis c. Loe they call them all Canonicall in one and the same sense although S. Augustine there instructeth the student of diuinitie whilest all were not yet generally receaued of the whole Church to preferre some before others Fulkes obiections Read the chapter afore where S. Augustine requireth seauen conditions in the student of Scripture before he be perfect
and you shall perceiue that it is but for lacke of the second which is Mitescere pietate to be meeke by pietie that you so presumptuously make obiections Pur. 386.208 calling them in your pryde vnauoidable resons against those bookes which by your own confession the whol true Church hath Canonized And what be these vnauoidable resons First because the author of the second booke commendeth one Razis for killing himselfe 2. Mac. 7. Au. 2. Gau. 23. ep 61 which is contrary to the worde of God S. Augustine answereth the Donatistes you at once saying Touching this his death the Scripture hath told it how it was done it hath not commended it as though it was to be done Secondly you say he abridgeth the fiue bookes of Iason But the Holy Ghost maketh no abridgementes of other mens writinges The booke of the Kinges in how many places it singnifieth that it abridgeth stories telling where they be written more at large in other bookes that were not Canonicall And is not S. Marke commonly called Breuiator the abridger of S. Mathew Also euery Sermon and letter in the Actes of the Apostles Aug. de cōsen Euang. li. 1. ca. 2.3 is it not an abridgement The Holy Ghost knoweth to poure againe through his new vessels both péeces of other mens writinges as you see Act 17. Tit. 1. and also bookes much more of Iason the Hebrew as also of Ethnike Poetes Thirdly He confesseth that he tooke this matter in hand that men might haue pleasure in it which could not away with the tedious long stories of Iason But the Spirit of God serueth not such vaine delight of men Is it vaine delight to desire profitable breuitie In your preface to the Reader you say I haue vsed great breuitie by a naturall inclination whereby I loue to be shorte in any thing that I write Do you compt your inclination a vaine inclination And who séeth not that in al the bookes of holy Scripture there is great obseruation of breuitie that amongst other causes also to auoide tediousnes Fourthly He sheweth what labour and sweat it was to him to make this abridgement ambitiously commendeth his trauill and sheweth the difference betwene a story at large an abridgemēt al which things sauour nothing of Gods Spirit And specially that in the end for al this you carp in the preface 2. Mac. 2. he cōfesseth his infirmitie desireth pardon if he haue spoken slenderly and barely Wherby he testifieth sufficiently that he was no scribe of the Holy Ghost That he ambitiously commendeth his trauell is but your blasphemie without any occasion geuen by him All the rest standeth wel ynough with the assistance of the Holy Ghost vnlesse you think that the scribes of the Holy Ghost may not speak of themselues as of men humano more or the they must alwayes be eloquent alwaies able to do al without swet without labour Doth not S. Paul asmuch cōfesse his like infirmitie whē he saith 2. Cor. 11. Etsi imperitus sermone though I be rude in speking Yea doth he not excuse his bouldnes for writing to the Romanes who were so full of all knowledge and saith that he did it not but onely to put them in remembrance of that which they knew well ynough before Rom 15. did he not also in that Epistle for his ease vse Tertius his hand Rom. 16. and the like commonly in writing all his other Epistles also as appeareth 2. Thes 3 That I speake nothing of his intollerable paines taken in Preachinge wherein also he was the instrument of the Holy Ghost and not onely in his Epistles These are forsooth your vnauoideable reasons Now to S. Hierome Hieromes testimonies Pu. 214. M. Allen aleageth the authoritie of Hieronym in prol Mach. But what he meaneth thereby or what place he noteth I know not quoth you Who wil beléeue that you are so dul In the vulgare Latin Bibles is a preface vpon the bookes of Machabées in it are these wordes The Bookes of Machabees although in the Canon of the Hebrewes they be not had yet of the Church they are noted among the Stories of the diuine Scriptures Those vsual Prefaces are taken commonly of S. Hierom somtime for word somtime for sense and so is this as will appeare by the two places that you bring out of him In his preface vpon the Booke of Kings you say he doth not onely omit it in rehersall of the Canonicall bookes but also accompteth it plainly among the Apocryphal He there reporteh how many letters are apud Hebraeos with the Hebrewes to wit two and twentie and that accordingly number for number primus apud eos liber the first booke with them is Genesis and so forth to two twentie So expressy he sheweth that he rekoneth the bookes there after the Hebrewes and therefore that he speaketh of their Canon when he saith afterward that all without these is to be put among the Apocryphall Therfore Sapientia which is commonly intituled Salomons and Iesus booke the sonne of Sirach and Iudith Tobias and Pastor for that booke also he mentioneth among the bookes of the old Testament of which onely and not of any of the new Testament he there speaketh non sunt in Canone are not in the Canon The first booke of the Machabes I found in Hebrew The second is a Greeke Now what maketh this for you or against vs doth any of vs affirme that these bookes were in the Hebrewes Canon Pur. 215. But you haue another place out of S. Hierome to proue that they were neither in the Churches Canon In his Preface vpon the booke of Prouerbes Therfore euen as the Church readeth in deede the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Machabees but yet receiueth thē not among the Canonicall Scriptures So also these two bookes Ecclesiasticus and Sapientia let her reade as she doth for the peoples edification but not to confirme the authoritie of the Churches doctrines to wit against the Iewes that is the answere because their Canon hath not these bookes in it But among the Churches people they were also then read publikly and solemly in their course as well as the other bookes of Scripture As S. Augustine also witnesseth of one of them by occasion saying August de Praed San. cap. 14. The booke of Sapientia hath bene thought worthy to be recited at the deske in the church of Christ tam longa annositate so long a rew of yeres and with worship belonging to a booke of diuine authoritie to be harkened vnto of all Christian men from Bishops euen to the lowest sort of laymen faithfull penitentes and Catechumenes This was that reading of it to the peoples edification And euen so S. Hierome expoundeth him selfe in his Preface vpon the booke of Iudith saying With the Hebrues the booke of Iudith is read among the Hagiographal not amōg the (a) Hieron prol galeato in li. Regum nyne Hagiographal
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
exauditions partely of curinges are done in so much that the bodies of Geruasius and Protasius Martyrs which laye hidden so many yeares they were Martyred in the Apostles time were reuealed as if they will aske they may heare of many vnto Ambrose and that at the same bodyes one that had bene many yeares blynde very well knowen in the Citie of Millayne receiued his eyes and eye sight Or because such a man had a dreame and such a man in Spirite heard a voyce that he should not enter into the side of Donatus or that he should goe out from the side of Donatus Where hee addeth of these miracles and visions saying Whatsoeuer suche thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church otherwise not be they done in Donates side or in Luthers or in Caluines Non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia haec in ea siunt But not therby is the Catholik church made manifest because these things are done in her You translate it that she is not proued therby as though S. Augustine said that also true allowed Miracles visions wherby in the Scripture also it selfe we sée Christ him self and so many other things purposely proued lacke weight and fashion of iust probation Whereas in deede he saith no more of theÌ„ then he saith of Scripture which is obscure not that it wanteth authoritie to proue the Church but that it doth not make the Church manifest requiring therfore the Donatistes to bring such Scripture as needeth no interpreter Sicut non eget interprete Which we alleage saith he out of so many most manifest places for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence growing on continually ouer al Nations euen till Domesday Such Scriptures do make the Church manifest but so do not obscure Scriptures vntill the interpretation be allowed Neither Miracles and visions vntill they be allowed Now the Donatistes would none of the Catholike Church in their time but both we and you confesse it And therefore when we alleage the Miracles done in it you haue not to except agaynst vs by this place of S. Augustine And that againe because we also do apeale with him to such the same Scriptures for manifest triall of the Church so that my vâ—ry first demaund is therof though we vse also other probations to shew that Scripture and all is for vs and nothing for you As he also doth where he saith to the Manichees vpoÌ„ the same matter Aug. coÌ„ ep Fund ca. 4. In Catholicae Ecclesiae c. Many things there be which in the Catholike Churches lappe most worthily do keepe me There keepeth me Consensio Consent of peoples and Nations There keepeth me Authoritas Authoritie by Myracles begon nourished by Hope by Charitie encreased by Antiquitie made firme and sure There keepeth me Successio Sacerdotum Succession of Priestes from the very See of Peter the Apostle to whom our Lord after his Resurrection committed the feeding of his sheepe euen to the Bishop that now is There keepeth me finally Iohn 21. ipsum Catholicae nomen the very name Catholike which not without cause among so many Heresies this Churche alone hath obteined Ista ergo tot c. These then so many so great most deare bonds of Christian calling do wel keepe the man that beleueth in the Catholike Church although as yet he vnderstand not the truth which he beleeueth To which place of S. Augustine you pretend to answere saying vnto vs All this you will say maketh exceding much for vs Ar. 69.70 yea but heare that which followeth Apud vos autem c. But with you Manichées and Protestantes where there is none of these to allure me and keepe me sola personat veritatis pollicitatio there ringeth onely a promising of trueth Then to your purpose as you think quae quideÌ„ si tam manifesta moÌ„stratur c. Which trueth if it be shewed so manifest that it can not come in doubt is to be preferred I graunt before all those things by which I am holden in the Catholike Church And what of this By this you may playnly see quoth you that though Consent and vniuersalitie Antiquitie Succession and the name Catholike be good confirmation when they are ioyned with the truth yet when a truth is seuered from them it is more to be regarded then they all As though S. Augustine graunted that the trueth might be seuered from them Where he playnly saith also moste sincere wisdome syncerissimam sapientiam that is truth and vnderstanding of it without all corruption to be in the said Catholike Church though the Heretikes will not beléeue so muche but thinke that the Catholikes are grosse heades and blind folowers of mens commaundements But them selues though destitute of all that should moue any man to be of their side yet to haue the truth most manifestly and without all doubt For that cause S. Augustine ioyneth with them in that booke and answereth their foundations as I do yours in this booke shewing that all this glorious talking of trueth is but winde of vayne words One such place more you alleage twise to the same purpose Ar. 14. Pur. 203. De pastoribus cap. 14. To a strayshepe seeking the Church what say you Syr Donatist Partis Donati est Ecclesia The peece of Donatus hath the Church Reade me that out of the Scriptures out of the Shepeheards voyce For out of them do I recite Ecclesiam toto orbe diffusam The Church which is not any mans piece but beginning at HierusaleÌ„ spreadeth ouer al the world Sed illi codices tradiderunt But thou sayst such men trayterously deliuered the holy bookes to Dioclesians ministers and suche men offered incense to the Idols such a one and such a one Quid ad me de illo de illo What is that to me of such a one such a one quia nec de illis vocem pastoris annuntias For it is thy selfe that accusest them But tell me the Shepheards voyce if that voyce accuse one I beleeue it alijs non credo other accusers I do not beleeue Sed acta proferes But thou wilt bring foorth Court rolles wherein their crimes are registred Acta profero And I also bring foorth Court rolles wherein the same mens innocencie is registred Credamus tuis crede tu meis Shall we beleeue thine beleeue thou mine also Non credo tuis noli credere meis I do not beleeue thine and I geue thee leaue also not to beleeue mine Auferantur chartae humanae sonent voces diuinae Let mens Court papers be remoued and let Gods sayings be rehearsed Ede mihi vnam Scripturam pro parte Donati Geue me one place of Scripture for the piece of Donatus or of Luther or of Caluine or of any other broken piece Audi innumerabiles pro orbe terrarum But for the Church of the whole world I am ready to rehearse innumerable
Protestantes side and iustification of our side so that whosoeuer will be saued must neither beleue them nor communicate with them as being Heretikes and Schismatikes but must be of our beliefe in all thinges and of our Communion as who haue both the trueth and the Church of Christ euen the same that our Auncetors to wit the Apostles and their Successors after them had in their seuerall times Which also was the totall summe of M.D. Allens Articles first and after them both of my Motiues Demaundes Neuerthelesse I haue thought good for the more manifest clering of all to haue this chapter aparte and folowing the order of my Demaundes one by one which if Fulke had done he had saued me some labour to sifte all in substance and effect that he hath said to D. Allens Articles in the former of his two bookes answering withall these few Scriptures and Doctors of his which in the two last Chapters I pretermitted and reserued to this place By this the Reader shall sée euidently the force of ech one Demaund how much more of all to heare the Protestantes quite downe considering that all is nothing which this felow in both his bookes could either answere vnto them or obiecte against them Specially if he will first reade ouer euery Demaund as it lyeth in my booke and then that which here is correspondent vnto it 1. Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures FIrst therefore by reason of their triuiall position of Onely Scripture in all questions for the which notwithstāding they haue neither Scripture nor Doctor as I haue sufficiently declared cap. 8 pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. and because the question of the Church is of all other the principall as one which being agréed vpon and so the House of saluation found all brable is at an end also by Fulkes owne confession here cap. j. Whether it can not erre as we say or may erre as they say Herevpon in my very first Demaunde on the one side I aske them as S. Augustine did the Donatistes some euident Scripture for their Church that is to say for Luthers piece or for Caluines piece of Luthers piece on the other side I point them to very many most euident Scriptures for our Church in S. Augustines two books against the Donatistes de Collatione Carthaginensi and de vnitate Ecclesiae that is to say for the Church beginning at Hierusalem Act. 1. like the litle musterdseede Mat. 13. and growing and spreading thence ouer all Nations ouer S. Augustine and his felowes in the Christian Nations of their time and ouer vs and our felowes in the Christian Nations of our time and so forth to the end of the world Now Fulke wheresoeuer he maketh mention of the saide Carthage Conference c. What doth he doth he reply and shew that the same most euident Scriptures make for his Church or that they make not for S. Augustines Church and our Church that is for the visible Church of all Christian Nations yea like a blind buzzard he there ouerthroweth quite his owne Church and plainely confirmeth ours as I haue noted cap. 9. pag. 176. to 183. in the question of Only Scripture vpon the places of S. Augustine which he there alleageth requiring and bringing Scriptures for the Church And as I offer cap. 7. pag. 106. to shew more copiously if he dare ioyne with me vpon this Demaund and stand to S. Augustines Disputation at Carthage c. and to the euident Scriptures there recited as cōcerning this questiō of the Church And as towching certaine darke and obscure Scriptures such as S. Augustine would haue to be set aside in this question the Donatistes in déede alleaged some suche for their Church that is for Donates piece cut of from the Church of all Nations But for Luther or Caluines piece Fulke hath alleaged neither so much as any such Howbeit against our Church he hath aleaged some such But I haue cap. 8. pag. 124. to 133. most cléerely shewed that neither they make any whit at all against our Church as neither certaine expositions of some Fathers cap. 9 pag. 155 and that they make vnauoideably against the Protestantes Being readie to shew the like in those more euident Scriptures also which the Donatistes alleaged against our Church if Fulke list to repeate them and in any other likewise that he can alleage 2. Building of the Church amid persecution In the 2. Demaund I reporte S. Chrysostomes argument which is not his onely yea it is the Scriptures against the Iewes and Paynimes to proue that Christ is God because no Persecution of theirs or any others could or can suppresse Christes Church though in the first beginning of it it were so poore and smal and they so mightie and cruell against it but that it hath and shall continually stand in the sight of the world mauger all the Gates of Hell Now Fulke to this argument hath answered nothing nor to the Doctors and Scriptures that make it The Iewes and Paynimes are not yet so much beholding vnto him Marie an obiectiō against it I graunt may be made of the texte of the Apocalypse here cap. 8. pag. 124. as you alleage it and vnderstand it to wit that the Persecution of Antichrist shall driue the Church into the Wildernes that is you say into a secrete place out of the open sight of the world Fulk a falsarie there to remaine for a long season But I haue there declared manifestly by the text it selfe that both in your alleaging you play the falsarie putting a long season for a very short season and in your vnderstanding a deprauer of Scripture to your owne damnation expounding that which is ment of fleeing in heart to God in time of worldly desolation to be meant of becomming corporally inuisible 3. Going out Motiue 18. Thirdly I demaunde of them to shew when we went out of the foresaid Church of al Christian Nations séeing they denie vs to be still within it As we say and the world seeth and Fulke him selfe confesseth here cap. 7. pag. 103. that they are departed from our Church and goeth about to yéelde a cause for their so doing Whereas by S. Augustine whom him selfe alleageth here cap. 9. pag. 177. as it were agaynst our separating of our selues from them which is one of his grosse contradictions and this also no better Ar. 66. that we Catholikes are departed from the Gretians it is impossible for any to haue a iust cause to Separate them selues from the said Church In so much that no companie can be named from the very beginning of the same Church which so did and obstinately stoode in it as they do but it was Schismaticall Yea and against his imagined Church in the wildernes here cap. 8. pag. 124. we are expresly warned If they saye vnto you Ecce in deserto est Beholde Christ is in the wildernes nolite exire do not goe out Matth.
24. but kéepe still in the visible euerlasting Church that visibly commeth of me beginning at Hierusalem 4. Rising after Motiue 19. Article 11. Fourthly I require them to shewe any beginning of our Church other then the beginning of Christes Church at Hierusalem Act. 2. As we shew and the world séeth the beginning of their companie now of late by Luther who afore was one of vs nor he onely but all that he drew away after him So that no man can say they were afore that inuisible Protestants because it is so euident that they were visible Papists And to these two or either of them Fulke answereth nothing I require them moreouer in the same Demaund to shewe so much as any first beginner of any one Article of our doctrin so as he receiued it not at the handes of his Predecessors and they of theirs and so forth euen vp to the Apostles As we shew that Luther began his new Articles of him selfe and receiued them not at any mans hands And also if any of the same Articles had in old time any patrone as Aerius agaynst praying for the dead that he likewise in his time was the first beginner of it and receiued it not of his Elders but that his Elders held the contrary of his Article so that his Article euidently was of him selfe and not of the Apostles Hovv this iiij and xxxviij Demaund doe differ I do not here charge them with such Articles as they were of the Church then condemned for heresies for that is enough of it selfe against them whether they were then first begon or afore and therfore I haue of that a seueral Demaund num 38. but as they were then first begunne which of it selfe is enough to shew that they were not receiued from the Apostles whether they were condemned of the Church then for Heresies or no. Now of these matters there are two long Treatises betwene D. Allen and Fulke first in the booke of Articles Art 11. pag. 35. to 47. Secondly in the booke of Purgatorie lib. 2. ca. 13. and 14. pag. 387. to 424. In which places the olde Heresies that they charge one another withall I reserue to their proper place in the Demaund aforesaide as also the chaunges that he sayth some Popes to haue made to the 45. Demaund What then belongeth to this Demaund First touching the argumentes or consequences secondly touching the antecedents The 1. Arg. The one argument is this Our first Authors can not be named Ergo they were none other but the Apostles His first answere is that it followeth not And one while he doth nothing but chafe at vs for it saying Must we finde out the authors of Heresies Pur. 391. Nay iustifie them your selues by the worde of God if you can c as I noted here cap. 7. pag. 79. Another while he will answere it with a witty example of the common wealth saying Must the Magistrate either iustifie a theefes possession or els bring out the author where he had it Nay the theefe must bring out good proofe how and by whō he came by such goods or els he is worthy to be serued like suche a one If that would serue we bring so good proofe for the Article of praying for the dead wherof you there intreat that your selfe confesse we stole it not but that we receiued it from hand to hand of our Auncetors ca. 3. whom your selfe confesse to haue bene the true Church of Christ cap. 2. Will you then quit vs with your witty example charge Christes Church to be a théefe But you confesse cap. 3. pag. 19.20.21 that she telleth you how she came by it to wit by the Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And moreouer howe your friend Aerius would haue stolen it from hir as now your grandsire Luther would steale it from hir heire What Magistrate after al this wil admit the théefe to pleade against the lawfull heire in such childish maner as you do hauing nothing neither to disproue the possession or the Euidēces of the heire nor to bring as Euidence for your selfe as by my answers in the chapters aforegoing it is most manifest Pur. 388. Againe you say the first author of euery heresie can not be named Where you recken ten and say These and a hundred more heresies shal they be thought to haue their heresie from Tradition of the Apostles if the first author of them can not be named For example There was one heresie of them that were called Acephali because there was no head knowen of them Where haue you that cause I Nicenū 2. con pa. 62. tomo 3 Nicep li. 16 ca. 27. finde that Seuerus B. of Antioch was their head whose name was Seuerus Acephalus And againe that they were but a piece of the Eutichians whose head was Eutyches as the Puritanes whose special head we be not certayne of are a piece of the Caluinists In such sort to shew the author is enough or also to shew the beginning it selfe for that is the cause why we séeke for the author to shew the beginning Which againe is shewed euē by this that the primitiue name of Christians would not serue them but they must haue new names to be called by that I say declareth that they began after the beginning And so we can shew the authors also of the other nine Heresies that you name which also your selfe do in naming of them and of all other if it were worth the while as partly you may sée noted in M. Rishons Table And in no such sort can you shew our first authors And so I am now come to your second answere wherein you denie our Antecedent For you say Pur. 402.413 If any man or men were the authors of our faith as it fareth with the Popish faith we should be iniurious vnto them if we did not acknowledge our founders as they do some of theirs Tute Lepus es pulpamentum quaeris You make D. Allen to be that same non plus of Cambridge Pur. 64. who when he lacked an argument said he would dispute ex concessis You are he euen your selfe Do we acknowledge any founders of our faith but the Apostles of Christ Ar. 47. Agayne you say Thus we haue noted to you the names of diuers Heretikes which first preached certayne Articles of your doctrine Those notes you meane wherewith you noted here cap. 3. pag. 24. the confessed true Church aswell as vs which I haue cleane wyped out cap. 6. pag. 57.58 and will wype away the rest likewise here in the 38. Demaund Ar. 39. Pur. 389. Againe for the first beginning of one particulare you say It can not be proued out of any authentical writer or by any credible author that any before Tertullian who was almost two hundred yeres after the incarnation of Christ eyther named or allowed prayer for the dead or that it was vsed in the Church Tertullian him selfe flourishing
Heresie but it was so contradicted howsoeuer the Fathers were at the same time otherwise occupied And we shew that these supposed Heresies were not as you blaspheme taken into the Church by emulation of Paganes or Heretikes as here cap. 6. pag. 36. to pag. 56. In how many places doth S. Augustine say that Origens heresie of the Damneds saluation after a while was ioyned with a certaine humane pietie And yet who knoweth not how the Origenistes for all that were most ernestly and continually resisted And the like may be shewed in all the like that as well the Heresies which had a shew of pietie and charitie were faithfully resisted as the others no Heresie at all lacking some shew for the time And howsoeuer now you make a small matter of prayer for the dead Cap. 11. coÌ„tradict â—1 in the next Chapter after your vsuall maner of contradicting your selfe you will make it equall to the greatest most blasphemous against Christ and against God and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all that belieue it c. Besides that the Fathers in déede withstood your friend Aerius who would haue entred with the contrarie and likewise all those other knowen friends of yours the old Heretikes Had they for all their being occupied against those horrible Heresies leasure to withstand trueth and had they not leasure to withstand corruptions of trueth You thinke your folowers very béetles if you hope to blind them with such grosse conueiance But you haue also Scripture forsooth to couer your iuggling Ar. â—8 2. Thes 2. For when the Scripture telleth vs that the Mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the General defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time it is folly to aske whether sodenly and in one yere and consequently with much preaching against it Ar. 43 all Religion was corrupted Against your blaphemous vnderstanding of this texte as if it said that the Church of Christ wrought the mysterie or preparation of Antichrist I haue replied cap. 8. pag. 121. But now whosoeuer wrought it doth your text say that ther was then no preaching against it No such word Besides what a mad imagination is this of yours that if all Religion had bene corrupted in one yeare then the Pastors would haue cryed out against it but being wrought by litle and litle they either could not espie it or were content to winke at it For who séeth not in the Ecclesiasticall Histories and other monumentes of Antiquitie that they gaue warning vigilantly and faithfully as well against those Heretikes that would haue corrupted but one or a few Articles as against those others that sought to corrupt many or all So haue they done all the time of the mysterie against all the Heresies that from the beginning haue wrought it 1. Ioan. 2. couertly therein seruing Antichrist them selues also therefore termed Antichristes So they do now also being the time of the defection or Apostasie though not Generall S. Paule doth not so call it of which Antichristian Mysterie you Protestants are the workers as I haue declared cap. 8. pag. 124. to .133 And after all the mysterie when his Reuelation coÌ„meth shall that at least passe vncontrolled You according to the blasphemies of your Apostasie do make that Antichrist is long agoe reuealed to the which I haue in the same place answered moste irrefragably by the Scriptures them selues that you abuse But now whensoeuer his Reuelation be doth any text say that there is then no preaching agaynst him Ar. 36. 2. Thes 2. Mat. 24. Apoc. 12. For so you say When the comming of Antichrist was in all power of lying signes and wonders in so muche that if it were possible the very Elect should be deceiued and a generall departing from the fayth was foreshewed and the Church to be driuen into the wildernesse What maruell were it if none of our Church could preach against it as it first entred As though the Scripture were not playne that not onely as he shall enter when the time of his Reuelation commeth but also euen during the whole time of his raigne there shall be open and stoute preaching against him ouer all the worlde with moste mightie working of true Miracles agaynst his lying wonders and moste constant resisting of him to bloud and to death though his tormentes and tormentors be neuer so horrible and Satanicall As I haue partly noted in the same 8. chapter pag. 124. to 130. All this you haue said to defend that our Religion might be false and of a later entraunce Ar. 36. although it were not gaynesaid at the first entring of it As for that which you say of preaching and writing agaynst the Popes authoritie when it first began it is answered aboue cap. 9. pag. 157. Now on the other side that your Religion is not false though it were withstood by the true Pastors in Aerius Iouinianus c. this you say Pur. 413. They that defended that Heretikes should not be baptized were withstood by Cyprian and all the Bishops of Affrica who were in the vnitie of the Church yet were they not heretikes nor their opinion heresie Much forsooth to the purpose Were withstood you should haue added at their first arising and preaching But then you had marred your example your selfe For their opinion did not then first arise but came by lineall tradition from the Apostles And the contrary opinion of Agrippinus and his successor S. Cyprian did then first arise and was withstoode by Pope Stephanus c. who (a) Aug. de bap cont Don. li. 5. ca. 23. wrote and commaunded (b) Vincen. Lirin ca. 9. apud Cyp. epist 74. nihil nouandum nisi quod traditum est to make no innouation but keepe the Tradition And therfore it was an heresie and they that helde it obstinately as afterward the Donatistes and Luciferians were Heretikes and the (c) Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3.4 Niceph l. 6. ca. 7. Hier. coÌ„tra Lucif Bed l. octo quest q. 5. Aug. coÌ„tra Cresc li. 3. ca. 1.2.3 de Bap. li. 2. ca. 4. Ep. 48. Catholiks recanted it both in Africa in Phrygia though S. Cyprian him selfe peraduenture was martyred in the meane time But yet you haue in store one example about this rule to dorre vs withall and to shew that (d) Ar. 93. the Romish Church can well inough abide the true Religion of Christ to be damnably abused by wicked men not only without open or priuie reprehension but also with allowing Which is no worse theÌ„ you hold here of the true auncient Church which you cal your owne But your example out of Matthaeus Paris is cleane agaynst your selfe For it sheweth manifestly that neither those Friars preachers which attributed too much to Religion or life Monasticall nor those Parisian Doctors which detracted too muche from it lacked their reprehenders among the Catholikes as they were all vntill some of the Doctors afterwards proued obstinat heretiks And that
are compelled to renounce the later which is the more proper and playnly peremptorie and to shrewde them selues in the former most vainly saying that the Church is called Catholike non ex totius orbis communione Epist 48. sed ex obseruatione omnium Praeceptorum Diuinorum atque omnium Sacramentorum Not of the whole worlds communion but for the keping of all Gods commaundements and of all the Sacraments By all this wrankling you winne nothing but this that you declare thereby the name to be ours and not yours as also by this that you defend your felowes for saying Vniuersal in stéede of Catholike and Congregation in stéede of Church Ar. 67. because say you they are so in English and are not els commonly vnderstanded You should haue said rather that they are so in Latine and then by your wise conceite one should tel the people of the gathering ouer all and they would vnderstand that better then the Catholike Church because these be Gréeke words Euen as if you would not name Baptisme vnto them but rather Ablution or washing Apostasie the cause of chaunging these vvords nor Heretike but a chuser nor Schismatike but a Cutter No my masters it was not for more perspicuitie it was not that you chaunged those knowen and worne names it was because they were preoccupated by vs afore you were borne and therefore were as a great blocke in your way to be remoued afore you could enter into the Christian hartes that you were to seduce for which cause your Apostasie hath gone about to chaūge trāslate more Greke names also thē those as you know Priest Bishop c. though they were vnderstanded well enough before Motiue 2. Article 19. 7. Heretikes The second rule is of the name Heretikes being the contrarie to the name Catholikes and therefore we néede now stand lesse about it That such as are of Christian men commonly called and knowen by the name of Heretikes are alwayes Heretikes in very déede To this Fulke agéeth not but correcteth it saying Ar. 65. Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deed and therefore say I Aerius Iouinianus and Vigilantius were Heretikes in déede because you confesse here cap. 2. that they were true Christians who called and counted them so But this not being for your vauntage you inferre otherwise And therefore the Papists being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians without doubt are Heretikes in dede Euen as vndoubtedly as you be true Christians that so call them That briefly is our answere to your rule though you answere it your selfe also where you say The Diuell stirred vp Tyrants Heretikes Popes Saracenes and Turkes Ar. 78. to destroy the Church who that counteth Popes to be Heretikes would so diuide What is now your answere to our rule Forsoth The true Christians were of the Arrian people who were people cōmonly called Christians called and taken for Heretikes What is that to the purpose but were they commonly called Heretikes euen so much as of the Arrians Euen as much as we now be cōmonly called Heretikes of you For you know pardie your selues that if you should in your talke and writing say Heretikes simpliciter as we do you could not be vnderstanded to speake of vs so as we be with all perspicuitie vnderstanded to speake of you Yea but although we be called Heretikes you say here cap. 7. pa. 80. yet in that our faith agreeth with the word of God we proue our selues in dede to be no Heretikes Witnesse here cap. 8. where al your deprauatiōs of Gods word are reuealed to your cōfusion 8. Protestantes Motiue 3. Article 18. The third rule is vpon the name Protestantes and such like That they haue always bene Heretikes who haue had such new names in respect of their seuerall faith and doctrine and always Schismatikes who haue had the like in respect of their seuerall cōmunion namely if they were obstinate therin To this Fulke answereth We desire most of all to be called Christians Ar. 65.66 coūting it a most honorable name although in reproch we be called of you Caluinists and Lutherans As the true Christians of old were of the Arrians called in reproch Homousians and Athanasians I told you in my Demaunds that to be like rather to this that Luther inuented to call vs Papists For we were you know before Luther began as they were before the Arrians began And neither they nor we then without a name What other thē was our name but the name of Christians In vnitie of the name were al together at that time And when afterward Arius and Luther began their partes what offended the old Christians I pray you to léese their old name And kéeping their old name what néede had the Arians to call them Homousians and Athanasians or Luther to call them Papistes was it of necessitie or of reproch And therefore on the other side the name Christians being preoccupated how could men talke of Arrius his faction or of Luthers factiō without some new names as Ariās Lutherās Therefore it was not of reproch but of necessitie in so much that your owne side also in theire talke in theire Edictes and in theire bookes specially one against another are constrained to vse those or other Names But we are not constrained nor do not call our selues Papistes but we call our selues still as before Christians or for more distinction perspicuitie Pacia Ep. 1. 2. ad Sy. Habetur in Bibliotheca edita Paris 1575 when we deale with you Catholike christiās For as S. Pacianus saith passing finely in his Epistle De Catholico Nomine to Sympronianus a Nouatian though he thē tooke him to be a Montanist Christianus mihi nomē est Catholicus vero cognomē Christian is my name but Catholike is my surname And therefore you may lōg desire the name of Christians before you get it The great count that you make of it is to our glory whose name it is But this is notable that howsoeuer you be ashamed of those names you confesse two other names graunting withall that they which choose to themselues such new names Ar. 87. are none of the Catholike Church to wit Gospellers and Protestants Specially where you say Ar. 65. As for the name of Protestantes came first of them that made protestation against the decree of Spires in Germanie Anno 1529. twelue yeres after Luther began and from that time hath bene attributed to professers of the Gospell Of whom soeuer it first came it is within the compasse of our rule And therfore you had good cause to adde and say Which name they do not so much delight in as you do in the name of Papists We delight euen so much in the name of Papists as in the inuention of your Patriarke Luther Howbeit we say not that a Catholike may to the Heretikes deny him selfe to be a Papist no otherwise
the Crosse and the Signes thereof it is euident that in your vsuall rayling agaynst dumbe Images Ar. 4. Pur. 20.21.22.460 2. Cor. 6. stockes and stones you do no more but vtter that you are no more of the auncient true Church then of our Church now which you denie to be the true Church S. Paule in déede saith that the Temple of God and Idolles can not agree togeather speaking of Christians that did draw with Infidels as receiuing of meate sacrificed to their Idolles such as now receiue of Caluins bread But that the true Temples of God and Images belonging to the same God agrée well together you can not denie but you must reuoke your owne confession made here of those auncient Temples of Christ And therefore you do but like your selfe to say I care not what your fathers called or counted Sacrilege But God our heauenly father cōmaunded vs to breake burne and destroy al your Idols and to deface al the monuments of them Deut. 12. And all the godly Patriarkes and Fathers both before Christes cōming and since haue giuen vs example hereof What els they gaue vs example to set vp Crosses you example to pull them downe You may roll in suche Rhetorike before fooles that receiue your absurde principles to wit that the Idols of the Paganes were Images of the Christians But when the simplest Catholike doth no more but denie your principle you are by and by non plus No syr but to auoyde prolixitie I could tell you playnely and at large who were your fathers in these spoyles that you haue made of Christes churches to wit the Donatistes the Arrians the Eutychians yea Iulianus Apostata yea and that you haue out-shot them all and left nothing to Antichrist him selfe but onely to fill vp the measure as I haue sufficiently touched cap. 8. pag. 128. And therefore neither will that serue which againe you say Pur. 341. Suche liuings as are appoynted vs by the Prince and the law we may enioy with a good conscience No syr it will not serue For you may remember the storie in S. Ambrose De Basilicis tradendis Ambr. li. 5. post epist 32. ep 33. He would dye rather then to deliuer the Churches to the Emperour and the Arrian Empresse his mother And so you enioy our Churches with as good a conscience as the Arrians should haue done at that time as you shal féele when you come in your course after your seniors before the iust iudge our mothers husband whose Dowries they be 22. Seruice Motiue 32. Article 6. The 22. Demaund is of the Seruice which Fulke in worde chalengeth no lesse then we saying here cap. 2. pag. 4. Constantinus buylded those Churches for our assemblies and Seruice and in the Cryptes also before that our assemblies were kept But in déede he confesseth that it was ours and reiecteth it accordingly so that I must stande here to defende it rather then to clayme it Pur. 377. His defence of their new Communion booke is this Whosoeuer were children of the true Church would neuer finde faulte with our Communion which can not be condemned by the worde of God and therefore careth not for the comparison of the custome of other men which whether they vsed the like or not in forme of words whith is not materiall so they vsed not other substance of matter except they did it besides the worde of God And yet it must be preiudiciall to our Masse booke not that the hooke was made since the Apostles time Ar. 21.38 Pur. 402.413 but that any peece was added since by certain Popes yea though the very same péeces be reteined in their cōmunion booke also Let al men therfore consider how iust the defence is that I made in this Demaund to wit that no péece be it neuer so new neither in the Masse booke nor in our other Seruice bookes is contrary to the old faith of the Apostles conteined in the word of God written or vnwritten yea the same in substance and cōmonly in forme of words also was in the Apostles and Fathers Churches The Primitiue Church had the same seruice that the church 〈◊〉 hath Let one example hereof be Prayer for the dead and that also in the Canon of the Masse as Fulke him selfe confesseth here at large cap. 3. pag. 16. to .21 And whatsoeuer he obiecteth against the Primitiue Church and vs for it saying they had it of the Diuell c. cap. 3. pag. 22. that it is against the Scriptures and contrary to the same Doctors them selues I haue answered all cap. 6. pag. 47. to 56. and cap. 8. pag. 133. to 134. and cap. 9. pag. 161. to 164. pag 193. to 214. Let another example be praying to Saintes as he also confesseth here cap. 3. pag 10. And what he obiecteth against the Faters and vs for it I aunswere cap. 6. and cap. 8. pag. 138. sauing one place of S. Augustines Ar. 55. vpon which he saith Note that no Sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs but prayer is a Sacrifice therfore it ought to be offered only to God Secondly that Martyrs were not called vpon in the time of the Sacrifice but onely named for remembraunce Cunningly noted as appeareth by these words of his in another place Aug. tract 84. in Ioa. De ve Ap. sermo 17. Non sic beatos Martyres c. We do not make such a commemoration of the blessed Martyrs as of other that rest in peace that we also pray for them but rather that they may pray for vs. Was this to be onely named for remembraunce Neither in the * Aug. ciui li. 22. ca 10. place that you alleage doth he say that they were not called vpon in the time of sacrifice but Non tamen a Sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur The Priest that sacrificeth Aug. Ciuit. li. 8. ca. 27. Offerimus domine pater praeclare maiestati tuae c. doth not inuocate them And what he meaneth by his inuocation that sacrificeth he declareth there afore saying Which of the faithfull euer heard the Priest standing at an Altar though also made vpon the holy body of a Martyr for Gods honor and seruice to say in the prayers or Canon Offero tibi Sacrificium Petre vel Paule vel Cypriane I offer sacrifice to thee O Peter or Paule or Cyprian But otherwise for praying to Martyrs S. Augustine is very playne in the same worke the same booke and almost the same chapter telling certaine Myracles one in a woman that prayed to the holy Martyr S. Steuē Aug. ci l. 2. ca. 8.9.10 in S. Augustines owne Church ad sanctum Martyrem orare perrexerat another in a poore man that prayed aloude to the twentie Martyrs in the same towne ad viginti Martyres clara voce orauit And such Myracles are done he saith by God at the Martyrs suite instance eis orantibus impetrantibus And therfore whether prayer be
in such a tongue And these Catholikes now receiue the like prayers of the same holy Ghost but by the Church Secondly that the Church in her publike praiers doth not speake in a tongue because the Latine tongue is not in Englande a straunge tongue so as it were if one should say Masse at Rome in the English tongue And so the question is not now the same as was betwéene the Apostle and the Corinthians but whereas the Church would do all things for edification as S. Paule commaundeth the question is whether this be obteined in the Publike prayers of the whole worlde rather by the Latine tongue that is to saye by the Common tongue or els by the seuerall vulgare tongues that is to say by the Priuate tongues To which question the Catholikes drawing all to common or vnitie haue one answer Heretikes and Schismatikes drawing from the Common and scattering into many Priuates haue an other At Corinth the case was otherwise both because the tongues were vtterly straunge and also because the prayers were not Set and Solemne in writing and custome but momentaneous suggested of the Holy ghost to some one for the time so that of them they were not vnderstood there was no profite at all in their publication And therefore they should not publish them but speake to them selues and to God Reade the learned Latin booke of F. Ledesima the Iesuite vpon this matter He sheweth at large and substantially that it is neither necessarie no nor expedient the Publike Seruice to be in all vulgare tongues howbeit the Popes holines may by the Councell of Trent do therin with any Nation as he seeth cause And Fulke can not nor doth not denie but that in the Primitiue Church all the Natiōs of the Latine Church had the seruice in Latine neither can he or doth he denie but many of the same Natiōs had vulgare tongues of their owne which were not Latine as the Punike tongue the Dutch tongue the Brytish tōgue c. What doth he then He holdeth that all the people and yet once he dare not but adde For the most parte which is ynough against him of the said Nations besydes their vulgare tongues spake and vnderstood Latine And how doth he proue this absurd position By the Germaine or French Councelles of Towres Turon 3. c. 17. Magunt c. 25.45.43 Rhem. c. 15. Magunce and Rhemes in the time of Carolus Magnus Whereas one of his places is so plaine against him that it saith as we do now also yf any man cannot learne so strange and hard was the Latine tongue vnto them his Créede and Pater noster in Latine Vel in sua lingua hoc discat Let him learne it at the least in his owne tongue One other taketh order for Homilies to be translated out of Latine into the Rusticall * The French is yet in some place called the Romane Romane or Dutche tongue playnly quo facilius cuncti possint intelligere quae dicuntur that al may more easily vnderstand that which is said Wherof he gathereth that all the Dutch men vnderstood also the pure Latin tongue though hardly and not perfectly He might gather aswell that all English men vnderstand the Latine tongue and the pure Latine tongue if the Bishops should say as they may Let Latine Homilies be translated into the Englishe tongue playnely that all maye more easily vnderstande what is saide Another doth forbid the Priest to say Masse alone because some body must answer to Dominus vobiscum and Sursum corda c. as also at this time and therefore he gathereth properly forsooth that the people commonly vnderstood the Latine Seruice Ar. 41.49 Cap. 9. Last of all he alleageth the great Councell of Laterane An. 1215. as though it commaunded the Bishops to translate the Seruice into English and other vulgar tongues whereas it doth no more but commaunde them because at that time the Latines were Lords of Constātinople Antioch Hierusalem c. to prouide ministers according to the rites and languages in which the Seruice presently was as it is euident by the words of the Councell And otherwise I aske him why it prouideth but only for those Cities and Diocesses in which people of diuers languages be mingled together and not for all in generall Besides that in no place any such translating of the seruice was put in execution Amongst those 1300. Prelats was there not one but he was either so negligent or so desirous of the peoples blindnes And that neither among those of thē which procured the making of that Canon This is the stuffe that they haue against Gods Church or rather this is the execation and infatuation of them that haue forsaken Gods Church Motiue 34. 23. Apish imitation The next Demaund sheweth them to be but the Apes of the Catholike Church in so much as they retayne of her Seruice and other orders leauing it to the consideration of the learned in the Scriptures and other writings that false Religion was always the Ape of true Religion as in the rest that they haue reiected they shew them selues to be Apostataes according to that I noted here cap. 8. pag. 144. Wherein the Puritanes are offended with their brethren the Protestants onely because they will not procéede so farre in this Apostasie as they and their master Antichrist who commeth to méete them as it were halfe way would haue them Pur. 379. And that is it which Fulke saith to D. Allen The ciuill Magistrates haue thought good in some outward ceremonie or vsage to beare with the infirmitie of the weaker sorte of your side Fulke is no Puritant in hope to winne them Where he saith further All your doctrine is abolished and nothing left but a fewe ragges of your robes to looke vpon And therefore I accorde with you that in déede they be infirme or rather down dead already that will be wonne from Gods Church to such companions by so babish meanes Whether that were the ciuil Magistrates meaning or no I séeke not but his meaning who mystically worketh in you was and is as I haue said Apostasie And therefore againe where you say I will vrge the Papists to tell me Pur. 295. what we say or do in the celebration of the Communion which Christ cōmaunded vs not to say and do or what Christ did or cōmaunded vs to do which we do not therein I say that you be answered already that whatsoeuer is therein against the holy Masse of which we vrge you in like sort is against Christes commaundement who said expresly to his Apostles and their Successors being the orderers of the same He that despiseth you despiseth me Luc. 10. Insomuch that S. Augustine talking of such matters condemneth you here cap. 6. pag. 45. of most insolent madnesse onely for calling in question the Masse or any part therof that is vniuersally receiued Of which matter and of your said Apostasie this Demaund following giueth further
Aaron but Aaron him selfe was Priest only in his owne time and after him euery one in his time was priest aswel as he and therefore in that law were many Priests So that the old Testament was like to England since the Conquest hauing successiuely many kings But the new Testament is like to England during the time of one king who being but one yet hath many ministers as one might say so many ministeriall kings Your third argument The Apostle to the Hebrues teacheth vs cap. 10. Pur. 289.201.45.451 that Christ offering but one sacrifice for our sinnes that but once cap. 9. hath made perfect for euer those that are sanctified that our sinnes are taken away by that Sacrifice and therfore there is no more sacrifice for sinnes left Do you vnderstand the words that you alleage Do you know what he meaneth by those that are sanctified by their making perfect by Sacrifice for sinne Verely you do not as by by it will appeare The scope of that Epistle is to exhorte the Hebrewes that is the Christian Iewes who were sore assaulted of the other Iewes partly with obiections partlye with persecutions to perseuer in the faith of Christ He doth therfore tell them that in the old Testamēt there was not Remission of sinnes but continuall commemoration of them Heb. 10. But now that Christ hath offered him selfe vpō the Crosse Vna oblatione cōsummauit in sempiternum by that one oblatiō he hath made perfect for euer sanctificatos the sanctified Heb. 10. that is 1. Cor. 6 the baptized So that of their former sins there is now no more remēbrance Iere. 21· therfore no more any offering for the same Heb. 10. but if they dye they go straight to heauen So mightily and so graciously doth that one oblation work in baptisme But what if after baptisme they sinne againe For that S. Paule there doth not at the least The true meaning of the Epistle to the Heb. directely tell any remedie because his purpose there was no more but to exhorte the standing to perseuerance and therefore he doth rather terrifie them saying If they fall againe Iam non relinquitur pro peccatis hostia now is not leaste Sacrifice for sinnes that is to say Christes death will not worke with them in another baptisme This he telleth them but remedie he doth tell them none But we by his other Epistles by the other Scriptures and by Tradition of the Church do tell such also against the Nouations that the same one oblation of Christ hath prepared for them also a remedie though not another baptisme yet the Sacrament of Penance We magnifie it yet moreouer and say that it hath also prepared many other Sacraments besydes these to other singuler effectes and in one of these Sacramentes a Sacrifice also in which it worketh to sundrie purposes By this appeareth I say your ignorance in things which yet you feare not to affirme as that the Catholikes should saye Christ hath not made them that are sanctified Pur. 451. perfect by a Sacrifice once offered for all for the greatest parte is lefte to the Masse As though when one commeth to vs to be baptized we diuided the remission of his sinnes betwéene Baptisme and the Masse This is your blindnesse to think that to be against the honor of this one Priest and of his one Sacrifice which is highly for it to wit to haue vnder him many ministers and many ministeries as it were cōduites to deriue his purchase and redemption to his people If we ascribed ought to any man or to any thing but from that Priest and from that Sacrifice then you might well exclayme against vs. And we in the meane time worthily exclaime against you for Apostating from the ministerial Priesthood the mysticall sacrifice and gracious Sacraments which he by his death purchased and left to his Spouse the Church our mother for our saluation and she hath kept them to this day deinceps and will kéepe them as S. Augustine said hereafter euen to the ende at what time your vile tongue shall reape as now it soweth Now after your Scriptures let vs heare your Doctors against this Sacrifice to proue that there is none such or at the least not consisting in Christes body Pur. 316.292 That Augustine by this Sacrifice meaneth not the body of Christ is manifest in his booke De fide ad Petrum Diac. cap. 19. Because there he calleth it Sacrificium panis vini the Sacrifice of bread and wine The same writeth being Fulgentius and not Augustine in the very like place as you may sée here cap. 6. pag. 63. and calleth it Sacrificium Corporis Sanguinis Christi The Sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ By the firste name for the matter by the seconde for the hoste But he sayth further you obiecte that In isto Sacrificio gratiarum actio atque commemoratio est carnis Christi quam pro nobis obtulit sanguinis quem pro nobis effudit In this sacrifice is Thankesgiuinge and commemoration of the fleshe of Christ whiche he offered for vs vppon the Crosse and of his bloud whiche hee shedde for vs. But what a commemoration In illis Sacrificijs quid nobis esset donandum figuratè significabatur In hoc autem Sacrificio quid nobis iam donatum sit euidenter ostenditur In the Sacrifices of the olde Testament was figuratiuely signified what should be giuen vs. But in this Sacrifice is not figuratiuely signified but euidently shewed what is alreadye giuen vs. In them praenunciabatur occidendus He was prenounced to be killed for vs in this annunciatur occisus he is announced already killed In such maner as in Rome the martyrdoms of S. Peter Paule are vpon their feast cōmemorated euidently shewed and announced by their very bodies and heads then sene and visited For which cause the Relikes of Martyrs be often in * Aug. de ci li. 22. ca. 8. antiquitie called The memories of the Martyrs And yet no Martyrs Relikes or body doth so expresse the very species of his martyrdome as the mysticall separation of Christes body and bloud in this diuine Sacrament doth expresse the species of his passion Ar. 55. But you haue one wonderfull place of S. Augustines For if it were well wayed it will you say interprete and answere all places of the auncient Doctors where mention is made of sacrificing the body of Christ at the time of the Communion In that place go first the words which I put here in the 22. Dem. pag. that he calleth it the one singular sacrifice of the Christians Then follow afterwards the words that you meane Ipsum vero sacrificium corpus est Christi And that same one singular Sacrifice is the body of Christ quod non offertur ipsis quia hoc sunt ipsi Which body is not offered to the Martyrs for this be they also This to wit the body of Christ Hereof
of Peter or of Stephanus his successor and a most glorious Martyr They thought that they had reason and Scripture on their side and the Pope nothing but authoritie and custome And therevpon when he had written and commaunded to the contrarie contra scripsisset atque praecepisset they made much a doe for a while and in anger as S. Augustine writeth poured out words against him But in the end Au. de bap con Dona. li. 5. ca. 23 25. when they must néedes eyther yéelde or be Schismatikes because he would tolerate them no longer they did like Catholike men they conformed their new practise for all their Councels both in Phrigia and in Africa to the old custome that the Pope obserued as I noted here in the 5. Dem. pag. 272. And at the last the Nicene Councel also gaue voyce with the Pope and condemned the Donatists who pretended to folowe S. Cyprian of Heresie for their obstinacie Therfore these are two notable examples of vnitie with S. Peters chayre as a thing most necessarie And generally al other Catholike writers that you do here cap. 9. pag. 218. or can alleage as it were against that Sée did sticke vnseparably to that Sée Aug. epist 166. Which S. Augustine for that cause calleth Cathedram vnitatis The Chayre of vnitie in which he saith God hath placed Doctrinam veritatis the doctrine of veritie But you for al this haue found a place in S. Hierom to breake this bond For you say vpon it Lo Syr here is Pur. 374. Hier. Euag. Hovv agreeth this vvith him selfe here cap. i. and ij a Churche and Christianitie and a rule of trueth without the Bishop of Rome without the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the Church of Rome Notably gathered For he saith the cleane contrarie Nec altera Romanae vrbis Ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est We muste not thinke that there is one Church of the Citie of Rome another of all the world But both is one And why because the Galles and the Brytons and Affrica and Persia and the Orient and India and all the Barbarous Nations Vnum Christū adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Do worship the one Christ do obserue the one rule of trueth and so be not diuided from the one Church by any Schisme nor by any Heresie So perfect was the vnitie of all Catholikes at that time which agréeth handsomly with your imaginations of local yea vniuersall corruptions here cap. 3. Now in this vnitie of trueth yet was there diuersitie of vsages In Rome a Priest was ordeined at the Deacons witnesse which is now obserued euery where Therupon and specially for the great estimation of the Archdeacons some Deacons thought them selues higher in order then Priests S. Hierom saith therfore Quid mihi profers vrbis consuetudinem c. What bring you me the custome of the Citie If authoritie be sought the world is greater then the Citie And who doubteth but the vsages of the whole Church in vnitie be of greter authoritie then the priuate custome of Rome alone He telleth them also that a Bishop of the meanest Citie is eiusdem Sacerdotij of the same order as the Bishop of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria And consequently that a Priest who by his order may do all things that be of order sauing onely giuing of orders is of another maner of order then a Deacon All this is most true and much for vs nothing for you You haue also a few textes of Scripture against this head of the Churches vnitie But by the argument ab authoritate negatiue which your owne Logike condemned here cap. 8. pag. 134. I would desire none other place in al the Scripture Ar. 29. c. but Eph. 4 of Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Pastors and Teachers And especially seing the Apostle both there and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of mind he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnitie Which he would in no wise haue omitted Pur. 450. c. Againe We beleue that the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Mat. 28. Supreme head and chiefe gouernour be termes of your owne schole Belike therfore you would as a Puritane pull down also your owne setting vp specially * Suppose also one Christian king or Emperour to raigne sometime as far as the Church reacheth considering that Kings or Quéenes be no more then Popes named among S. Paules officers And truely you might also as an Anabaptist pull downe all Gouernours no lesse then the chiefe by that reason of Christes power ouer all You might also denie Euangelistes and Pastors which are named Ephe. 4. because they are omitted 1. Cor. 12. Likewise Powers Healers Helpers Gouernments Tongues Interpreters which are named 1. Cor. 12. with Apostles Prophets and Teathers because they are omitted Ephes 4. I must often say you vnderstande not the Scripture you do so often vtter your ignorance Our Sauiour did say after his Resurrection to his Apostles All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth to signifie that he might with good authoritie cōmit what power to thē he would inferring thervpon Ite ergo Go ye therefore and teach and baptize Eche of the tvvelue had Apostolike povver ouer all all Nations And to one of them singularly Feede my Lambes and my sheepe Wherefore S. Paule also in those two places doth say that all diuersitie of giftes and offices is Secundum mensuram donationis Christi according to the measure that it pleased Christ to giue to euery one and the holy Ghost to diuide to euery one as him pleaseth Therefore no cause why the lesser should enuy the greater or the greater despise the lesser Schismatically but all in vnitie content them selues with Christes distribution specially béeing so made by him for the necessitie and good of the whole He had therefore in suche places to expresse the diuersitie of greater and lesser but not necessarily of the greatest and least And yet to stoppe such Hereticall mouthes he saith 1. Cor. 12. expresly Non potest caput dicere pedibus The head vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie vnto me Also Ephe. 4. in the name of Apostles he includeth the Successours of the Apostle S. Peter whose Sée for that cause is called The Apostolike See in singuler maner and their Decrees and Actes estéemed of Apostolike authoritie in all antiquitie I say of S. Peters authoritie to whose Chayre cōparing it with the Chayre of Carthage S. Augustine doth ascribe Apostolatus principatum The principalitie of Apostleship Apostolicae Cathedrae principatum Au. de bap con Dona. li. 2. ca. 1. Epist 162. The principalitie of the Chayre Apostolike which saith he hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church All this considered no reasonable man
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
Vnitie As though Christ or S. Augustine or we did speake of any other then Vnitie of Christian People and in Christian faith And if any Heresie among the Christians haue had their vnitie also that doth no more but declare that the same Heresie whatsoeuer it were might for this at the least claime the true Church better then the Protestantes For another shifte he sayeth Ar. 107. that the Church may be called the howse of peace because there is in it peace and agreement in the chiefest Articles of the Faith By which reason he might say that very many of the old Heresies were within the Howse of Peace because they agréed with the Church in the chéefest Articles But we say that any one Article be it of the chéefest or of the meanest may breake the peace as quartadecimani did disagrée onely in the day of Easter and many other like in S. Augustines Catalogue of Heresies to Quodvultdeus And therefore it helpeth his side nothing that he saith to excuse their diuision Ar. 63.61.62.10.58.96.103 that the Lutherans Zuinglians do differ but in one matter and that not the greatest to wit concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Be it so that among them are no more but these two Sectes and betwéene these no more difference which yet is most false as not onely large tables of their names set out by Catholikes but also innumerable Bookes about innumerable matters set out be them selues against one another and euen their own Puritanes now at home do notoriously declare One matter I say is inough yea also if it be but a ceremonie though you say of some of yours They differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Yes Syr when they holde their owne Ceremonies to be necessarie or condemne the Churches Ceremonies as vnlawful as those Quartadecimani did they are Heretikes and therefore diuided from the faith Howbeit also diuision is made sometimes without any disagréemēt so much as in a ceremonie as whē it is a méere Schisme not mixt with any Heresie at all Such were the Schismes that were towards among the Corinthians 1. Cor. 3.4 swelling one against another onely vpon their Baptizars and Teachers And therefore what is the matter that you differ in forceth not Onely if you diuide your selues and will not come to one anothers Churches where is your vnitie As for difference of opinions betwene our Canonists and Diuines or also betwene our Schole Diuines among them selues it is as I said in the 8. Dem. pag. 283. all without diuision all in vnitie Aug. cōtra Iul. li. 1. c. 2. De bap cō Donat. li. 1. ca. 18. all no otherwise then as S. Augustine saith Sometime also the most learned and best defenders regulae Catholicae of the Catholike rule do without breaking the frame of fayth not accorde and diuers be of diuers iudgementes without anye breake of peace vntill a generall Councell allowe some one parte for cleare and pure Suche was the difference of S. Cyprian his fellowes from the other Catholikes about Baptisme here in the 28. Dem. And suche was the difference betwéene some about the Popes or Councels superioritie before the Florentine Councell which by your owne confession here cap. 6. pag. 70. resolued the matter But your differences we say are with diuision with pertinacie without end a generall Councell can not finish them yea to nourish them for euer your very doctrine is that in Church or Generall Councell is no authoritie of such importance 36 Owners and keepers of the Scriptures Moti 8.30 Articl 2.3 My next Demaund to the Protestantes is S. Augustines Demaund to the Manichies which D. Allen doth prosequute in two Articles And it is grounded vpon the foresaide authoritie of the Church Aug. cōtra Ep. Fund ca. 5. If thou shouldest meete with one saith S. Augustine to a Manichee who doth not yet beleeue the bookes of the Gospell what wouldest thou doo to him saying vnto thee Non credo I do not beleeue them As of his owne selfe he there sayth Ego vero Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas I verily shoulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the Catholike Churches authoritie did make me And then he gathereth therevppon and asketh Quibus ergo obtemperaui dicentibus crede Euangelio cur eis non obtemperem dicentibus mihi Noli credere Manichaeo Those therefore to whom I obeyed saying Beleeue the Gospell Why should I not obey the same men saying vnto me Do not beleeue Manicheus do not beléeue Luther Nowe to this what shifte hath Fulke He can not denie but that our Demaunde is vpon that Churth whiche is called Catholike nowe according to my sixte Demaunde pag. 227. as S. Augustines Demaunde was vpon that Church whiche was called Catholike then and as muche maligned of those Manichees as nowe of these Protestantes Neither can hee shewe but that as it hath still the same name so it is still the same Churche as I haue defended agaynst all his vayne Cauilles eyther out of the Scriptures cap. 8. pag. 124. or out of the Doctors cap. 9. pag. 155. And therefore béeing still all one Churche you shall sée if you marke that he sayth in his aunswere nothing of the one but it is common to the other and that it is all one for vs to frame our Demaund of the Catholike Church then Ar. 10. and of the Catholike Church now For thus he sayth The Primitiue Churches testimonie of the worde of God we allowe and beleeue But I deny that the Primitiue Church dyd affirme Luther to be an Heretike or the doctrine which he taught which we holde to be Heresie Here you denie it but in other places you confesse it where you graunt that they affirmed Aerius to bee an Heretike for denying prayer for the dead and were fayne therevpon to take exception against the same Primitiue Church by your colde shift of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 79. Tell vs then we say why we should obey the same Primitiue Church commaunding vs to beleue the Gospell and not obey it commaunding vs not to beléeue Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius c. cap. 3. pag. 9. to 14. and consequently not to beleue Luther nor to care for all your carping in these two Artiticles of her Images and Inuocation of Saintes of her Sacrifice of her estimation of Customes Traditions writings of Doctors Decrees of Popes and Councels of her auncient Latine Translation of her corrupting either of the text of the Testament or of the true Religion conteined therein of her not translating of the Scriptures into all vulgar tongues of her workes of supererogation Abbeys Priories and Chauntries For touching all these things either it is euident in it selfe or in sundry places eyther you haue confessed or I haue proued or at least I haue defended that they were the Primitiue Churches also no lesse
as S. Irenée saith Non oportet adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatē quam facile est ab Ecclesia sumere No man must yet after all these most euident Demonstrations seeke the Trueth among any others which they may so easily take of the Churth because it is Depositorium diues the riche Stoarehouse of the Apostles 38 Old Heresies Motiue 4. Among the Protestants on the contrary side I say that there are to be founde very many of the Olde condemned Heresies Which is so playne that Fulke confesseth here cap. 3. Aerius Iouinianus and Vigilantius to haue bene counted Heretikes of the true auncient Church for sundry opinions of theirs nowe reuiued by the Protestantes And therefore is fayne cap. 7. pag. 80. for his owne cause to goe about to defende them partly with his stale of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 80. to the which I haue made aunswere cap. 8. pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. partely with abusing sundrie places of the Scriptures and of the same Fathers which condemned those Heretikes to the which I haue answered cap. 8. and 9. partly also with more insolencie to charge those Fathers rather as defending Heresie agaynst Aerius c. cap. 3. wherevnto I haue answered cap. 6. sauing that the two Heresies which he layeth to them that hold with the Machabées and with Traditions as the Fathers do cap. 9. pag. 165. cap. 3.7 pa. 12.85 I haue answered in this present chap. in the 36. 29. Demaunds And so with one labour I haue cléered both the Fathers our selues together not to be Gnostici Valentinians Carpocratians Collyridians Ossenes Caianes in our Traditions in our Crosses and other Images in our Inuocation of Angels and Sants and worshipping of their Relikes nor to be Manichées Tiacianistes Montanistes Aerians in our Abstinence and Fastingdayes in our single life nor Gentiles Carpocratians Origenists Heracleonites Montanistes in our name of Sacrifice in our Purgatory Anealing and praying for the dead nor Arrians in our beeres for burying For such is his modesty and Christianity and truth to charge the Pillers of Christ with such heresies yea and moreouer to saye generally as I noted cap. 3. pag. 9. that if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they woulde drawe it into vse whiche was the greate corrupting of those auncient tymes That we maye nowe be more content to heare him charge vs and say with all generalitie that is possible Pur. 287. In all tymes when soeuer and wheresoeuer was any peese of miste or darke corner though all the rest were light there were the steppes of your walke Which two golden sayings of his procéede of these two diuine opinions of their new Gospel that the Primitiue Church should prepare the way to Antichrist and that Christes Vicare should be Antichrist Wherof I haue spoken ynough cap. 8. and 9. Such opinions must vtter such sayings And yet not able for all that truely to charge the Church either Primitiue or of later time with so much as one point of Antichristianisme or Heresie as partly I haue declared cap. 6. and now wil declare for the rest They are such matters as agrée no otherwise to vs then to them whom he dare not to condemne and therfore not in the same maner as to the old Heretikes Ar. 21.22 Epiph. s 3. Haer. 80. 1. Cor 11. Hier. in Ezech 44. Of the Messalians or Martyrians you lerned saith he to shaue your beardes and to let your lockes grow long Comas muliebres producunt They kepe their heare long like women Do we so Be our heades like womens long heades womens heads bylike are rounded heades or S. Paule did meane that men should poll their heades Ita ad pressum tondentes vt rasorum similes videantur Cutting them so neare the skin that they should be like to shauen heades Or do not some Protestantes weare round heads and shaue their beardes as well as some Catholikes and some Catholikes euen also the Cleargie in Italie and Spayne weare beardes and polled heades as well as some Protestantes Epiphanius noteth it in those Monkes because they did it in contentione of contention and at that time and in that place when and where the Apostles statutes and the Churches orders were to the contrarie as yet they be touching womanly heades but not also euery where touching shauen beardes It is a signe that you abounde with substantiall stuffe against vs that you lay our heares to our charge Nothing was wont with you to be heresie vnlesse it could be proued contrarie to expresse Scripture Sup. dem 36. so easily we might answere all by your principles and that also excepting ceremonies Yet now conformitie and obedience to comly order for lacke of better matter must go for heresie Sée whether we do not more substātially charge you with the Messalians heresie for saying that the Sacraments and namely Baptisme Theo Haer. fab li. 4. Dam. Haer. 80. Eucharist and Orders do not conferre grace Reade Theodorete and Damascene Of the Pharisees you receiued your superstitious masking garments which you call Amictus Dalmaticus and Pallia as witnesseth Epiphanius in his Epistle to Acacius and Paulus Doth not also your owne order appoynt speciall and gorgeous garmentes in the ministrations And that in the Primitiue Church also were such I haue shewed here in the 21. Demaund and by name if you will you may reade of the Deacons Dalmatica and Alba to be worne in the time of the oblation and lesson out of the Gospell Con. Carth. 4. cap. 41. as also in other places both of them and the rest You might as well or also better haue brought this against the Leuiticall garments in the ministeries of the Iudaicall Temple Epipha ep ante lib. de Haer. Haer. 15.16 You do not consider that Epiphanius there reporteth the seuen sectes of the Iewes and describeth them namely the Scribes and the Pharisées in their common daily garments being Stolae siue Pallia and Dalmaticae siue amicula as we might say cassocks and gownes or clokes vpon them with simbriae fringes commaunded Nu. 15. Deut. 22. to haue made for ostentation of holines certayne superstitious additions enlargementes by which our Sauiour Mat. 23. doth note their hipocrisie Doth not this make sore against holy vestments in the Seruice of God An other sect of the Iewes were Hemerobaptistae touched by our Sauiour Mar. 7. Epipha ep ad Acac. Paulum Haer. 17. who said Neminē assequi vitam aeternam nisi qui quotidie baptizaretur None to obtaine life euerlasting but such a one as were baptized or washed euery day Of these were deriued your holy water saith Fulke to vs which you say you vse to put men in mind of their Baptisme O I sée our fault although we baptize but once for life euerlasting yet we would haue men to remember it euery day S. Paule deceaued vs Rom.
and that no man for much more then a .1000 yeares together after the Apostles time either denied it Roff. in li. Aâ— Petrus fuerit Romae con Vellaeum Cochl de Petro Roma coÌ„ Velli Wald. li 2. Doct. ar 1. c. 7. tom 3. ca. 129. Cop. dial 1 ca. 15. or doubted of it Besides sundrie most manifest argumentes to proue it whereas the Wickleâ—istes and Protestants arguments against it which he saith can neuer be answered are the most ridiculous things that euer man heard Though Fulke bring not forth any one of them yet I haue answered the very best of them here Pag. 237. And most excellent authors among the Catholikes haue alreadie written whole Bookes of this question as Roffensis Cochleus besides Thomas Waldensis and many others that haue chapters of it in other bookes Howbeit the scripture also it selfe is plaine ynough in it if one be not too contentious where S. Peter himselfe doth say that he wrote his first Epistle in Rome calling it Babylon as I noted cap. 9. pag. 156. And for S. Paules being there which is ynough to proue the Apostolike Sée of that Church the Actes are most euident Act. 28. In so much that also Fulke himself after this maner to contrarie him selfe doth confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that the Churche of Rome was founded by the Apostles In which place also he graunteth that in the Fathers time it was an Apostolike Church howsoeuer now he would draw his necke out of the coller by denying Peter to haue bene there But be it that Peter was there he saith in his 2. shift except you proue Succession of doctrine and faith aswel as Succession of men your Succession is not worth a straw Yes sir in prouing the Succession of men onely we doe as much as the Fathers did vnlesse you will say that their doing also was not worth a strawe For a Succession of men there must be the Scriptures are plaine therein as the Fathers shewe But no companie sauing the Romanes companie can shew a Succession of men Therefore no companie but theirs is the Church In so much also that the Scripture and Fathers together doe say of that Succession and of that onely Ipsa est Petra Mat. 16. Aug. in Ps coÌ„t partem Donati quam non vincunt superbae inferorum portae That is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell doe not ouercome And your selfe with your master Caluin doe confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that it continued in the Apostles faith and sounde doctrine for the first .400 yeares which is ynough against you because you also confesse cap. 3. that within the same time in it was praying for the dead and many other pointes against your doctrine 45. Chaunging Moti 24. Article 11. Dem. 14. But that you shoulde not haue any such euasion I made my next Demaund expresly of that matter noting that the Romane Churche as it hath succession of men so also hath succession of doctrine and faith neuer to this day chaunging the doctrine and faith which it receiued of the Apostles Now what haue you to the contrarie Of S. Victor who excommunicated the Asians Ar. 47. I haue answered Dem. 28. that it is nothing else but your blasphemous audacitie to say that he chaunged from his predecessors and vsurped authoritie in that doing Touching also S. Boniface the third against whom you alleage the saying of his Predecessor S. Gregorie None of my Predecessors would vse this prophane title to call himselfe Vniuersall Bishop I haue answered Cap. 3. pag. 24. that you belie S. Boniface For neither he nor any since him no more then they before him vsed that title but the cleane contrarie title Seruus seruorum dei which S. Gregorie of humilitie did begin Thirdly you say that the same Gregorie as Hulderichus Bishop of Auspurge doth testifie was the first that compelled Priestes to liue vnmaried Which afterward when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked And so you destroy your own ensample for if he reuoked it then is not he one that made a chaunge from his Fathers faith You that will not beléeue all Antiquitie saying that Peter was at Rome will yet haue no man doubt but S. Gregorie saw such inconuenience in so shorte a time that six thousand Infantes were straight begotten by the fornications of onely Subdeacons yea and cruelly murdered yea and all their heades caste into one certaine poole and therefore found and taken vp by tale Witnesse of all this one that being Bishop of Auspurge wrote to Pope Nicolas the first who was dead 56. Cop. dial 1 cap. 22. yeares before this man was made Bishop He that will Laugh more at large at the fable let him reade M. Cope As for Priestes Mariage I noted cap. 3. pag. 12. cap. 6. pag. 43. How they counted Iouinian an Heretike and a monster long before S. Gregories time for allowing of it These are all the chaunges that you note in the Church of Rome vnlesse I must count this another where you note D. Allen to confesse Pur. 68. that the old vsage of the Church was first to set satisfaction and then to absolue though now of late to absolue before satisfaction hath bene more vsed Both maners haue bene alwayes vsed but the first of old more then the second and the second of late more then the first This saith D. Allen and it is euident to them that are skilfull in Antiquitie namely such as did not make their confession before they fell sore sicke they were absolued incontinently and did their Penaunce afterwards if they recouered Hereticall Bishoppes and Priestes were oftentimes receyued vppon cause by onely absolution without all satisfaction yea and permitted to continue in their honours also The Churches care both then and now was and is to haue all sinners truely contrite before absolution and that is sufficient before God Neuerthelesse suche as haue offended afore also are caused to doe their duetie accordingly A straunge matter that these Heretikes who haue quite taken all away should controll the Church although she also had taken all away howe muche lesse considering that she hath not taken any piece away but onely putteth that more often to the second place whiche she was wonte as it is a thing indifferent to put in the firste place more often and that according to her power to edifie and not to destroye seeing the people now so careles that rather then they will doe suche penaunce for satisfaction they will not come to confession and so dying without absolution goe to damnation and seeing withall that whereas satisfaction is no satisfaction vnlesse the partie bee firste in grace his owne contrition before was alone but nowe it hath the helpe of absolution whiche of it selfe conferreth grace that nowe his satisfaction muche more probablye then before is not baren And therefore muche lesse satisfaction nowe like to be more auayleable then muche more before and
vs to death for it Ioan. 19. to say we be no Martyrs but Traytors Euen as the perfidious Iewes made as though our Master could not be king ouer our Soules but by Treason agaynst Cesar So the Heretikes say of his Vicare In suche casting of their blasphemous mouthes into heauen they doe but consent to the wicked that shedde the Saintes bloud Those whom Gods Church hath declared to be Saintes it is not Fulke nor his baudy Bale that with all their durt can blotte them out of the booke of life If S. Liberius were once an Arrian might he not be canonized for a Saint repenting afterwards Was not S. Augustine once a Manichée Yet the trueth is as D. Sanders sheweth at large that he neuer was an Arrian nor neuer saide of any so to be but onely by compulsion to haue subscribed to the Arrians against his owne conscience or rather not to the Arrians but onely to the deposition of Athanasius So one or two of the Doctors wrote béeing deceyued with the false rumour that the Heretikes had spredde before the trueth was set out in the Ecclesiasticall Historie But where was your witte when you alleaged against Canonization the example of burning Hermannus the Heretikes boanes who neuer was canonized by commaundement of Bonifacius 8. in Ferraria where they had worshipped him twentie yeres Apocryphally You say king Henry the sixt should haue bene canonized but onely for lacke of money ynough When you bring your authors you shall receiue your answere We can not proue you say that the Pope and our Church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs To make holydayes of them to name them among the Saints in Diptychis in the holy Canon of the Masse is not this proufe sufficient of their canonization yea and that the Primitiue Church which did so canonize them was not your church because you haue taken away their Dyptica and their dayes of S. Laurence I say and of so many other most glorious Martyrs which had suche canonicall memories in the Primitiue Churche also Yea and would take away the Apostles dayes also if you might haue your will as you vttered here in the 22. Dem. in speaking against all dayes of Saintes O but you haue a better waye to know Saints to wit they whose names are written in the booke of life You might do well to set out that booke in print that we might correct our Callendar after it If you haue not the booke it selfe haue you any more certayne way to know who are written in it then is the Churches declaration Or do you allow her testimonie in canonizing some Scripture for Gods word Saint Fulke by his ovvne industrie reiect it in canonizing some men for Gods Saintes But it is great iniurie to the Saintes of God that they be not so accounted while they liue Belike you would be called Saint Fulke that out of hand But for ought that I know you must tarry vntill you extend your doctrine and certaintie of Predestination farther For as yet you teach no more but that your selfe must and do knowe your selfe to be predestinate and so may canonize your selfe for a Saint for euer when you teach that others must know as much of you then blame them if they also do not canonize you And in the meane time blame not the Pope for canonization nor cōpare it to the making of Gods which the Heathen vsed séeing it is no greater a matter then your selfe can doe nor the title greater then men aliue should haue and specially séeing Iohn Hus and Ierome of Prage haue as you say as solemne feastes in your Bohemians Callender as Peter and Paule No man els néedeth to take the paynes your selfe build vp againe with one hand that which you pulled downe with the other 47 Communion of Saintes The next Demaund is about The Cōmunion of Saintes Moti 43. that is to say of all Christians to shew our Countreymen to what a paucitie and against what a multitude they ioyne them selues and that in the matter of saluation or damnation So it is that Fulke doth brag of the most part of Europe here in the 9. Dem. and cap. 9. pag. 177. naming England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia Spayne Italy I denie not but there are Heretikes in al these Countreys at the least in corners And therefore if all Heretikes be of your religion and communion that you may bragge as you doe But the trueth is that euen those Heretikes also which be of your Religion out of England if any be for I doubt whether any will allow a woman to be head of the Church but only your selues to name no other of your peculiar articles yet are they not I say of your communion nor you of theirs as appeareth euidently by this that neither in a Generall Councell if you should hold any you haue authoritie one ouer another no more then two distinct Realmes with their seuerall kings haue authoritie one ouer the other in worldly matters But Catholikes in the meane time whersoeuer they are they be al of one Religion of one communion Therfore to giue the ignorant some light in these matters as S. Augustine said often against the Donatists Aug. de vn Eccl. 3. De pastorib ca. 8. so do I. I say two things first that in all Nations parts of Nations where any of al these Sects are found Catholikes also are found dayly do encrease One example for all of our owne Countrie best knowen to our Countreymen where although they be turned out of all their Churches as in very few others yet the multitude of the people is knowen to be stil Catholike in hart of our communion though drawen against their wills to the contrarie yea and innumerable of them recōciled as all in maner would be who séeth not if they were at their owne libertie Secondly I say that Catholikes are in many Nations and partes of Nations where none at all of the Sectes are or so fewe that they are not to be counted of as in all Spayne all Portugall all Italie most partes of Fraunce many partes of Germanie c. Wherby any man may easily conceiue that the Catholikes at this day in Europe are incomparably more then all the Sectaries put together encreasing withall euery day specially by meanes of Seminaries and Iesuites for the purpose and they diminishing How much more adding to these the Catholikes that be in Africa and in Asia among the old named Christians of those parts And more againe infinitely adding yet the innumerable new Christians in the farder partes of them both conuerted within these fiftie yeres by the Iesuites And agayne the like in Nouo orbe vnder the king of Spayne by the Friers in so much that many yeares since it is written of that alone Surius ad An. do 1558. Tot autem hominū millia in illo nouo orbe Christi c. So
their liues as by the storie it is certayne The other that neither these afore their appearing were secrete Protestantes or Heretikes but open Papistes or Catholikes as I noted before of Luther And so he hath not yet found his Chimera or inuisible Church 20 To bring her againe into open light Ar. 16.96 Which is now brought to passe in our dayes Contra From the yere of our Lord 1414. Ar. 36. being the time of the Councell of Constance the bright beames of the Gospell haue shined in the world 21 The Reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was An. 607. when Bonifacius the third c. Ar. 38.36.16 For vntill then the mysterie of iniquitie was preparing for his reuelation and cōming and for the Generall defection Contra Ar. 16. She hath not decayed there in the wildernes but bene always preserued vntil god should reueale Antichrist which is now brought to passe in our dayes 22 The Churches being in the wildernes was Ar. 27.95 to be out of the sight knowledge of the wicked Contra speaking of the same space She was narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long season Againe Although it were vnknowen to the Papistes yet it was in Italie when Marsilius of Padua preached in Fraunce when Waldo in England whē Wickleue in Bohemia when Hus and Ierom of Prage did florish Why all these were well knowen to the Papistes Ar. 80. 23 A rule of the Logicians No man knoweth a relatiue except he know the correlatiue thereof Therefore though Christ had a bodie in earth yet could it be knowen of none but such as knew Christ the head of that bodie of whom the Papistes were ignorant Ar. 96. Contra Our Church is now againe brought to light and knowlege of the world So that now bylike the Papistes know Christ Pur. 450. Ar. 77.79.80 or the Logicians rule is verified onely for the time of the Churches being in the wildernes according as in other places he moderateth the matter saying We beleeue that the Church is not alwayes knowen to the wicked vpon earth Pur. 405. Ar. 95.82.74.80 24 We beleeue that the vniuersall Church is not seene at all of men because it is in heauen Contra Our Church when it was most hidden might rightly be called Catholike that is vniuersall c. Here cap. 10. Dem. 6. And whereas you say that no man aliue could name the place where it was you make an impudent lye For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enemies thereof yet was it knowen to the true members thereof Pur. 377. 25 And as for our Mother Church is no certaine place or companie of men in any one place vpon earth but Ierusalem which is aboue is mother of vs al. Contra c Ar. 95.79.82.106 That no man aliue could name the place where it was is an impudent lye It was in Italy when Marsilius preached c. Vt supra in contrad 22. c Ar. 95.79.82.106 Chrs s t hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse c Ar. 95.79.82.106 She was knowen to them that were her children c Ar. 95.79.82.106 The Church of Christ is the nurse of Christians Ierusalem that is from aboue is mother of vs all Ar. 95. 26 It is not called Catholike because it should be euery where For that it neuer was nor neuer shall be Contra d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esa 10. d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 That God hath an holy vniuersall Congregation it is necessarie to beleeue d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It is dispersed in many places ouer all the world 27 e Ar. 12.3.69 Christes Church is now by God inlarged farther thē the Popish Church Contra f Ar. 73.80 It is but a small flocke in comparison of the malignant Church of Antichrist whose number is as the sand of the sea Apoc. 20. 28 It is a good argument that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ Ar. 27. because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name the notable persons in all ages in their gouernement and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers And it were a token that our Church were not the true Church if we could name suche notable persons in their gouernement and ministerie Contra a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Suche officers as are necessarie for the conseruation of Gods people in the vnitie of fayth and the knowledge of Christe our Churche hath neuer lacked notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 because our Churche had not so many Registers Chroniclers and remembrauncers the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs. a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 For the authoritie of the Bible we haue the testimonie of the true Churche in all ages a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Our Congregation hath euer had possession of the Scriptures Their inuisible Church had alvvayes the Scripture in the vulgare tongues a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath neuer suffered the true Churche to be destitute of the necessarie vse of the Scripture Whiche the Popishe Churche hath so keapt in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse muche lesse the necessarie vse thereof a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Churche of God hath alwayes had Scholes and Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 It was neuer so secret nor hidden but it might be knowen of all those that had eyes to see it a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 That thousand yeres there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Church hath neuer bene afrayde to do her office towards her children and true members in teaching exhorting comforting confirming c. 29 The Popish Church was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp Contra Ar. 27. Ar. 85. The Church of Rome hath not alwayes practised open preaching and neuer preached the word of trueth 30 Touching the text Mat. 5. of a Citie buylded vpon an hill Ar. 100. which can not be hidden after he hath giuen his sense of it he saith Hereby it appeareth how fondly some Papistes and some of the Doctors in their error do expoūd this place to proue that the Church must alwayes be visible Contra euen in his owne exposition there It is properly
meant of the Apostles and their successors the ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue al other men to looke diligently to their life conuersation for as they excell in place dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they beeing placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a 1000. yeres So he saith 31 b Ar. 35. Pur. 458. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time And so the error of praying for the dead was continued frō a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ Againe Ar. 16. Pur. 458. An. 607. The Church fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwayes preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light now in our dayes c Pur. 364. The true Church shall neuer decay but alway raigne with Christ The false Synagoge shall dayly more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroyed with Antichrist the head therof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible Church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible Church which did decay yea and plainly departe away into Apostasie 32 At euery word he calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant Church Contra in some places he maketh two distincte heades and their distincte companies Ar. 16.95 As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the west seduced the world then the Church fled into the wildernes Againe The Popish Church is not in euery parte of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte 33 That the true Church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuilege it hath by Gods Spirite we hard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 Neither hath the Spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 There be some prerogatiues of Gods Spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c And these the Spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 True Faith c. might be signes of the true Church The Spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby The Church of God is the piller stay of truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 so called because that wheresoeuer the Church is either visible or inuisible ther is the truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 S. Paul by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers how great a burden and charge they susteine that the truth of the Gospell can not be cōtinued in the world but by their ministery in the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 As our Church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 We require you to beleeue the true Cathòlike Church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleue any one companie of men more then another 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the dead is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ Pur. 458. vnto a playn departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The true and onely Church of God is so guyded by Gods spirite Ar. 88. and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to continue No nor suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence 35 Ar. 5.4.9 The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfectes and the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre Ar. 5.4.9 She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians Ar. 5.4.9 We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Contra Pur. 219. All other writings are in better case then the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be coūted the works of their authors without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the word of God except you liste so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holy Scriptures with you haue not credite according to the authoritie of God the author of them but according to your determination Ar. 65. Ar. 82. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deede Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the Church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in D. Allens principle staye in all troubles and tempestes Ar. 65. 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are Heretikes in deede Contra He is a foolish Sophister Ar. 66. that reasoneth from names to things as you do most vainely and childishly Ar. 86. Pur. 367. 38 There is neuer Heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the Church tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also The Donatistes chalenged the Church to them selues Ar. 60.61 39 But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is Real presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly agaynst you and therefore can not be of your Church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true Church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Out
with him selfe and it with it selfe As also because I haue in sundry places vp and downe noted no small number ouer and aboue these As to repeate a few that Origen acknowledged no Purgatorie paines And yet he it was that brought in the Fire And the like of Tertullian Item that the definition of the 3. Carthage Councell was the definition of the Church And yet the Church doth not that which the same Councell did Yea he is an Heretike that admitteth the Machabées c. for Scripture Pur. 214. as that Councell did Item that to conclude negatiuely of one place of Scripture is no good Logicke and yet he concludeth so him selfe very commonly Item that to conclude negatiuely of all mens authoritie is a false argument and yet he vseth it him selfe very often yea and of one mans authoritie Item that pistis is neuer and yet twise taken for a promise And that widowes 1. Tim. 5. shall be damned for forsaking their widowhood and yet not for marying Item that they choose to them selues no new names and yet these two Protestants and Gospellers Item that the first Religion of our Saxons was in some poyntes Popish and yet against all Popish Doctrine Item that the Primitiue Church did affirme Aerius to be an heretike and his doctrine against prayer for the dead to be Heresie and yet did not affirme Luther to be an Heretike nor his doctrine to be Heresie This is he that chargeth the holy Fathers with contradictions both of the Gréeke Church as S. Chrysostome S. Epiphanius S. Basill and also of the Latine Church as S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Leo S. Bernard and some of them with many contradictions partly vnawares I graunt but for the most part wittingly and willingly though alwayes vniustly and falsely as I haue shewed in euery particulare And so in conclusion he hath in so charging the Fathers done nothing els but added to the heape of his owne contradictions and declared his double blindnes that he hath neither eyes to sée when he contradicteth him selfe nor when others doe not contradicte them selues And of the same sorte also be the Contradictions which here and there he chargeth D. Allen withall Let the Reader consider them but a litle and he shall straight perceaue that either they be not contradictions or which is more common that to make a shew of a contradiction he falsifieth D. Allens wordes One example for all Pur. 135.133 To this that Purgatorie serueth but for veniall sinnes or else such Mortall sinnes as were forgeuen in this life He maketh D. Allen contrarie thus He that not onely leadeth a lothsome life but also contemneth all those meanes that Chritst hath wrought to redeeme him to the perfection of a Christian godly lyfe I vse his owne wordes sayth he and therefore can not haue remission of his sinnes in this life shall notwithstanding by tolleration of the bandes in the Prison of Purgatorie recompence his debt and come from thence into the blessed Presence of Christ This Proposition neither in forme nor in sense is D. Allens Doth he say He that leadeth a lothsome life Yea doth he not playnely speake of him that now leadeth a Christian godly lyfe but will not be reduced to the perfection thereof by repentaunce or satisfaction of his lothsome lyfe past Loe such are those Contradictions And therfore to conclude It is not M. Allen but M. Fulke that hath the most passing facultie of any that euer I heard to build one thing in one leafe and to ouerthrow it him selfe againe in the next ¶ A Nosegay of certayne strange Flowres picked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handy worke The twelfth Chapter NOw remaineth onely the last Chapter of my promise which I made in my Preface Wherein I haue to note certaine examples of his passing ignorance foule erring in the Scriptures in the Histories and in Doctrine First Pur. 283. as for the Sacrifice propitiatorie saith he it was offered in the Law only by the High Priest once in the yere And besides this he findeth none but Sacrifices of thankesgiuing in the Law Wheras Sacrifice propitiatorie and pro peccata for sinne are all one Leu. 16. and Sacrifice for sinne was offered not only that one day in the yere which he meaneth to wit in the feast of expiation being the tenth day of the seuenth moneth but also in many others of the Feastes ordinarily Nu. 28.29 and extraordinarily whensoeuer occasion was ministred by sinne of the Priest prince multitude or any one priuat person Leu. 4.5 and vpon sundry * Leu. 6. other occasions besides And touching the diuision of Sacrifices there were foure kinds of them as S. Paule sheweth out of the Psalme Heb. 10. Psal 39. Leu. 1..23.4.7 Pur. 455. Pur. 224.456 and it is to be séene playnly in Leuiticus Hostia Oblatio Holocaustum pro peccato For these other two Sacrifice for thankesgiuing and pro delicto belong to the first and the last I will not here say to you as you do to D. Allen But you that so like a prowde foole take vpon you to helpe his ignorāce bewray your owne intollerable arrogancie and more then beastly blindnes For if you had read the Law whereof you make your selfe such a Rabbine c. So to say to any man is not for modestie But whether it might not be more iustly said to your selfe I report me to this poynt of your ignorance in the Law on the one side and to the poynt on the other side for which you so take vp D. Allen whose right vnderstanding of the Law you call ignorance as I haue declared cap. 8. pag. 136. Another point of your ignorance is where to deface the Sacrifice that Iudas Machabeus caused to be offered for the dead you say that both the High Priest at that time was a wicked and vngodly man to wit either Iason Menelaus or Alcimus and namely Menelaus the worst of them all three and also that the other Priests of that time were giuen to the practises of the Gentiles 2. Mac. 4. In so much that it is like that Iudas Machabeus if he deuised not that sacrifice of his owne head yet tooke it by imitation of the Gentiles I maruell how you could reade that Storie and yet thinke that Iudas Machabeus had any communion or societie with those Gentilizers against whom all his fighting was And when he had gotten Hierusalem and the Temple is it not written playnly 1. Mac. 4. vers 42. that for the repurgation thereof he chose Priestes without spot hauing their heart in the Law of God After which time he made a 1. Mac. 5. 2. Ma. 12. v. 3. many expeditions from Hierusalem against the Gentiles In one of which expeditions or voyages b 2. Mac. 12. ver 9. béeing to Iamnia certaine of his souldiers did take De donarijs Idolorum some of the presents of the Idols
of Iamnia for the which God suffered c 2. Mac. 12. ver 32.40 thē to be ouerthrowen after Pentecost by the souldiers of Gorgias And then Iudas sent that money to those vnspotted Priests at Ierusalem to offer Sacrifice for their sinne The chiefe of which Priests in the absence of Iudas him self were his brethren Ionathas and Simon and not Menelaus nor any of those other Apostataes You might haue learned by those bookes that the succession of the true Pontifices or High Priestes for that time was this a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas i Ionathas k Simon And that these others a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason b 2. Mac. 4. v. 24.29 2. Ma. 13. Menelaus c 2. Ma. 4. ver 29.41 Lysimachus g Alcimus were but Antipontifices or false vsurpers against these to wit a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Iason the author of the Apostasie from the Law against his brother Onias and secondly Menelaus against the same a 2. Mac. 3. ver 1. 2. Ma. 4. ve 7.10.14.26 2. Ma. 4. ve 33 34. 2. Ma. 5. ve 5.7.9 Onias and thirdly Lysimachus brother to Menelaus After the Apostasie thus begun that liuely Image of Antichrist king d 1. Mac. 1. 2. M. 5. v. 11 Antiochus Epiphanes taketh Ierusalem martyreth the Law-kéepers finally setteth vp in the Temple the abhomination of Desolation being a Statuee of Iupiter Against him his riseth the foresaide e 1. Mac. 2. ver 1.70 Mathathias and after him his sonne f 1. M. 3. v. 1. 1. M. 9. v. 18 Iudas Machabeus who repurged the Temple the same day thrée yeres that it was polluted Anno 148. And the next yere Antiochus dyeth his sonne Antiochus Eupator succéedeth with him striueth for the kingdome g Demetrius Soter An. 151. to whom fled the wicked of Israel and Alcimus their Capteine qui volebat fieri Sacerdos to complayne of Iudas g 1 Mac. 7. ver 1.5.9 1. Mac. 9. ver 54.55 Which Alcimus dyed of Gods hand the next yere after the killing of Iudas i 1. M. 9. ve 31.10 v. 18.13 v. 23. and could neuer get Ierusalem the Temple but alwayes after the repurgation it continued in the gouernmēt of Iudas and of Ionathas after him and then of his other brother k 1. Mac. 13. v. 8.36.41.43 Simon Of whose Priesthood also High priesthood the text is playne in their seuerall places here noted in the margine I wil recite the wordes that are written of the last * 1. Mac. 13. ver 42. The yere 170. the people of Israel began to write in their Court-rolles and Records thus Anno primo sub Simone Summo Sacerdote magno Duce Principe Iudaeorum The first yere vnder Simon the High Priest the great Duke and Prince of the Iewes Certaine other poyntes of your grosse or rather malicious ignorance in the Scrirtures are about Antichrist As that the Church of Christ should prepare his way or worke his mysterie that his Reuelation or comming should be so soone after the beginning of the Church and so long before the consummation of the world that the Churches flying into the wildernes in his time should be to be driuen out of the sight of the wicked and knowledge of the world that his raigne should last so many hundred yeres that he should be a Succession of certayne men and not one only certaine person that the Church should be come againe out of the wildernes and yet Antichrist raigning still These are the very foundations of your new Lutheran and Caluinistical Gospell and yet no ground at all for them or any one of them in the holy Scriptures of God but onely in the weake sande of your owne blasphemons but bold asseuerations in presence of fooles who haue auerted their vnhappie yeres away from trueth and conuerted them vnto your fables Againe that the body of Christ is not offered to him selfe but thanksgiuing is offered to him for the offering of his body for vs. Pur. 316. Why Syr did not he vpon the Crosse offer his owne body as a man and a priest to him selfe as to God You noted others here cap. 4. pag. 28. and cap. 6. pag. 63. as for saying that it is not lawfull to pray to God the Sonne and there S. Fulgentius tolde you as the Fathers Créede doth that ech person of the blessed indiuiduall Trinitie Simul odoratur conglorificatur Is with other at once adored and conglorified no sacrifice neither that of Christes body whether it be vpon the Crosse or vpon the Altar béeing priuate to one but common to all thrée Agayne that you call it a vayne amplification and fond supposition Pur. 155. to extend the force of Christes death beyond the limits of his will As though it were not of force to worke any whit more then it worketh in acte as to saue so muche as one of them that shall not be saued Contrarie to this expresse Scripture He is the propitiation for our sinnes 1. Ioan. 2. and not for our sinnes onely but also for the sinnes of the whole world And contrarie to this saying of your owne in another place Pur. 34. Concerning the sufficiencie of Christes Redemption there is nothing can be spoken so magnifically but that the worthinesse thereof passeth and excelleth it Againe that to remit sinnes is proper vnto his Diuinitie As though he Pur. 26. that is to say our Sauiour Christ doth not remit sins according to his humanitie also No maruell to sée you denie this power to his ministers when you denie it to the Sonne of man him selfe Mat. 9. The people in the Gospell vnderstood him otherwise when your fathers the Scribes called it a blasphemie for any to remit sinnes but onely God and the people contrariwise séeing his mirable that he wrought to proue his and his Churches doctrine herein did glorifie God for giuing such power to men hominibus Whervpon he when the time was come gaue commission to his Apostles Ioan. 20. saying As my Father sent me I also sende you Whose sinnes you forgiue they are forgiuen them Againe that pestilent doctrine of desperation wherein you say a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 There be sinnes for which the Church ought not to pray euen of men remayning in this life a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 for which it is not lawfull to pray a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 which by the mercy of God are not pardonable for a Pur. 274.127.128.135.283 it is false that so long as men are in this world they maye
damned * Fulke vvil auouch this out of Heb. v. in his Reply for euer also This is the doctrine of that beast as D. Allen doth most worthily call him for it against our Sauiours corporall death which was his onely death and that in many of his impious bookes and namely in that Catechisme which they haue ioyned with their French Bibles in the end belike that it may among fooles créepe in time into Canonicall authoritie as alreadie Luther with the Lutherans and Caluine with the Caluinistes is péere to the Apostles them selues And for touching of this doctrine it is that Fulke more zealous for Caluine then for Christ goulpeth vp such geare against D. Allen as the Reader may sée in the place falsifying also D. Allens wordes because otherwise he had no marke to shoote at as though he had said Caluine to affirme that Christ went downe into hell after his death Whereas D. Allen saith nothing of the time when he descended by Caluin but onely of the hellike torments which Caluine buildeth vpon his descending Howbeit I would aske Fulke why it is such a mysterie that Christes soule was in damnation for the time vpon the Crosse and not also and rather after his death for the time vntill his resurrection specially considering that in the Créede Crucifixus goeth before Sepultus and Descendit ad inferos followeth Sepultus as also commonly in the Scriptures the time of his Soule in hell is made concurrant with the time of his body in the graue And who séeth not thereby that the Catholikes interpretation is also most naturall and proper that after Mortuus which signifieth the separation of his body and soule by death followeth Sepultus to shewe where his body was afterwardes Descendit ad inferos to tell where his Soule was afterwardes though not in damnation according to these mens new blasphemie vntill both were conioyned againe in his Resurrection as there it followeth immediately Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis Thus I am faine to stand long vpon euery point be it neuer so absurd and impious against our Lord God him selfe and against our onely Redēption in his bloud For they can wrest the Scriptures to such poyntes also We should I thinke afore now if this poynt of Christes damnation for our Redemption had not bene by diuers Catholikes so handled to their shame haue had that other poynt likewise of some Caluinistes made more common that Christ also did despeire in God or blaspheme God or commit some other sinne against God for our Redemption Synod Gē 5. Ses 4. Ses 8. ca. 12. For I sée not but they are already come to say with that old most detestable blasphemous Heretike Theodorus Mopsuestenus master to Nestorius that he had in him fomitem peccati inclination to sinne and that he was not from his conception impeccabilis that is vnsinable considering they say he feared to be damned for euer vnlesse they will say that he was so ignorant to feare a thing that was vnpossible to befall vnto him Which yet them selues can not feare because of their Speciall faith forsooth Pur. 290.296.298 O Lord these blasphemous helhoundes are more worthy to be beaten downe with thunderboltes and so forth as Fulke knoweth how to amplifie but that afore he lacked matter It is no maruell now after this to sée this man so cold for the honor or rather so impiously set against the honor of Christes Mother As first to quit the Heluidians and Antidicomarianitae August ad Quodvult Haer. 84. Epip Haer. 78. Pur. 453. who were by the Primitiue Church condemned as Heretikes for denying her perpetuall virginitie But he notwithstanding saith As for the perpetuall virginitie of the Mother of Christ as we can thinke it is true so bicause the Scripture hath not reuealed it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it No it perteineth not vnto you to accurse old Heretikes but to ioyne with old Heretikes that perteineth vnto you and also to forge new principles as that same of Only Scripture in their fauour yea and also to contradict your selfe for the matter For but foure lines afore you say All trueth may be proued by Scripture And now of this We can thinke it is true and yet the Scripture hath not reuealed it You might with more honestie haue said that it may be proued by Scripture namely where she saith Quoniam virum non cognosco Because I know not man that is Luc. 1. Au. de san virg ca. 4. because I haue made a vow of virginitie how therfore cā I haue a child But this place you could not aleage you wot for another cause neither do I say that it proueth inuincibly her perpetuall virginitie although it so proue her vow For I know that besides her vow it should be proued that she neuer sinned against her vow nor had a dispensation of God for it Secondly you controll D. Allen Pur. 86.87 where saying that the iustest person sinneth he excepteth Christ and for his honor his mother You thinke it must then be said that he was not sauiour of his Mother and she had no neede of his saluation If you had bene a reader of S. Augustine as you be of Caluine you might haue easily remembred that he saith the very same that D. Allen doth A piece of Pelagius his heresie being that a man may liue without all sinne Au. de nat gra c. 36. he alleaged for it the example of so many iust persons commended in the Scriptures and among the rest our Lord and Sauiours Mother saying that to confesse her without sinne necesse est pietati It is necessarie for him that will not be impious Howe you woulde haue answered him we sée specially thinking you haue Scripture for her sinning because Christ said vnto her Why did you seeke me Luc. 2. Ioan. 2. c. and What to me and thee O woman c. you thinke that Christ here reproueth her and that he had done her wrong herein if she did not sinne You might do well to tell vs what were those sinnes of hers S. Augustine could not sée any there nor els where but saith playnly in his answere to Pelagius although the contrarie had bene for his vantage against him Excepting the holy Virgin Mary of whom for the honor of our Lorde I will haue no question in the worlde when we talke of sinnes Inde enim scimus for by this we know that more grace was giuen to her to ouercome sinne altogether because she was worthy to conceiue and bring forth him whom it is certayne to haue had no sinne The honor of our Lorde is by Fulke his dishonor Where also you sée that her not sinning doth not argue as after your Diuinitie that she had no nede of Christes grace Con. Tri. Ses 6. can 23. but the cleane contrarie that she had so much the more of his grace then any other
allow any dispensation in it be it otherwise neuer so iust As for any Law of Nature you can alleage none against the Churches dispensations no otherwise then against Gods owne dispensations in the time of the old Testament yea if you remember your selfe well they were allowed then some of them at the least by law also and not only by dispensation sometimes which you meane now to be against the Law of Nature Béeing so many wayes ignoraunt in Gods Lawe it is lesse meruaile that you be ignoraunt in the Churches Lawe and agayne in the Churches Diuinitie so that in one place you make it a thing certayne Pur. 35. that the Pope geueth his pardons by the Sacrament of penance As though the Pope beyng at Rome myght be minister of a Sacrament to one in England You might as well thinke that he doth excommunicate by the Sacrament of penance So great a Doctor doth not know that the power of binding and loosing is exercised many other wayes besides that Sacrament Yea not onely in our diuinitie but also in your owne you be so ignoraunt Pur. 13. that you wonder that a Catholike should say that God sometime punisheth sinne with sinne which is a position common to be séen in all Catholike Doctors Thom. 1.2 q. 87. ar 2. complaine that when you say but halfe so much we charge you to make God the Author of sinne Why is not that a common position and long discourses vpō it in your masters bookes that God is the author of sinne Cal. Insti li ca. 14. num 17.18 Melanct. in Epist ad Rom. If you be ashamed thereof and therefore doe say not as an euill author but as a righteous iudge I doe not reprehend you But if you say it of ignoraunce in your owne Scholes learning you must know that your Masters hold it of all sinnes alike as well of that sinne which goeth first in any man as of that sinne which commeth after in him and is sometime the punishment of the former sinne And therefore they holde it of God otherwise then as of a righteous iudge Ergo by your owne diuision as of an euill author For the difference betwéene them and vs is this They denie our Fréewill and make God to worke all sinne in vs in the same sort as he worketh all good in vs to wit per se willing appointing and predestinating vs to sinne euen no lesse then he which leadeth a blind man to fall But we say no more but that when a man hath sinned against him mortally God taketh away his inward grace and sometime also his outward assistance more or lesse according to his most iust will So as if a blinde mans guide should for his desert as because he wil néedes fall when he might stand forsake him either quite or for a time and he afterwardes fall the cause of that fall per se he onely is himselfe as of the former his guide onely per accidens though of the former neither per accidens Euen so doth God who is both the light of our eyes by his grace infused and also our guide by his infinite helpes externall Howbeit he dealeth not with vs all and alwayes according to his iustice but of his infinite mercie commonly he will not let vs fall when we will néedes fall and when we be fallen he will not let vs fall farther yea he raiseth vs often againe when we would lie still yea also when we resist him and fight against him rebelliously a notable example in S. Paules conuersion Act. 9. Iac. 1. that most worthily S. Iames is so vehement to hold and affirme that all good is of him but no euill at all not so much as tentation to euill Moreouer your great skill in Histories Ecclesiasticall appeareth by that you say Supra ca. 2. ca. 10. Dem. 11.3 Ar. 15.16 the Britons to haue kept their Easter so as the Asians did and the Latines to be departed from the Grecians in this present Schisme Which both I noted before Again because you say as it seemeth that Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour after Valens the Arrian Againe speaking of the Estern Churches of Asia at this presente that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at the Emperours charges Ar. 6. for the encrease of Christian faith among them What Emperour and what faith I pray you but Catholike or Popish Pur. 373. Againe that the Fathers alleaging Succession of Bishops against Heretikes specially named the Church of Rome it was because those Heretikes for the most parte had beene sometimes of the Church of Rome as Valentinus Marcian Nouatus Those Heretikes that D. Allen speaketh of were not only the Valentinians and Nouatians but also the Donatistes the Arrians yea and all Heretikes in generall Now had the most part of these béen sometimes of the Church of Rome Yea Nouatus him selfe Supra p. 16 was he not a Priest of the Church of Carthage vnder S. Cyprian Who can reade S. Cyprian and be ignorant thereof specially now a dayes after that so many haue noted the error of some Gréeke Historians who in olde time and being farre of could not distinguishe Nouatus of Carthage from Nouatianus of Rome And also of Valentinus and Marcion where haue you that they were of Rome vnlesse all that goe to Rome be of Rome For so wée reade in Ireneus Iren. l. 3. ca. 4. li. 1. ca. 29. Philast in Catal. the time noted when Valentinus came to Rome for by Philastrius he was of Cypres and that Marcion was of Pontus being therefore called Ponticus You might in another sense say that they all other Heretikes were sometimes of the Church of Rome because all lightly were first Catholikes and al Catholikes were as all ought to be of that Churches communion And that to haue bene the cause why the Fathers named that Church specially But so you would not say because you woulde not condemne your selfe for a Schismatike Last of all where you must shew vs wherein the Communion of Saintes consisteth you shew your self againe a great clearke Pur. 199.200 The Scriptures make the Communion of Saints to be as is the Communion of our members in our body Yet you say One can not merite for another no not for him selfe but euery man hath his worthinesse of Christ As though neither Christ could merite for any other no nor for himselfe because he had his worthinesse of God Againe graunting that some of the members be here on earth and some elsewhere yet denying that they may either by prayer also helpe one the other you so define the Communion that you allow it no place for the prayers also of the members aliue to be made for others aliue But only for the dispensation of the grace and giftes of God which as euery one hath receyued of God so of charitie he is bound to imploy the same to the profite
of his fellowe members here on earth And why is he not of charitie bound as well to pray for them And if he be why are not those members in heauen as well or haue not they also receiued of God some giftes If they haue why are not they of charitie bound as well or doth not the Scripture say plainly the Christes friendes in heauen do reioyce with his penitentes in earth How then coulde you pretend Luc. 15. as though the mutuall offices of loue whereby one member hath compassion with another can by no meanes touch the state of the dead Is not the state of the holy Angels now the state also of some that be dead Be not they also among Christes friendes in heauen So much you say touching the Communion of the Church militant here on earth For you haue another besides it which you call the communion of the whole body that you make to be the participation of life from Christ the head If that be all then is there no Communion For what communion were it betwéene the members of your naturall body if they did onely receiue life from your head and could not vse their said life to profit one another but liued euery one to himselfe alone How much better had you bene to follow D. Allens most proper and true discription of it then to vtter thus you know not what at the least if you could not correct him yet you could belye him as to say that he will haue other workes and wayes of saluation beside the bloud of Christ He saith that in this Communion all workes and all wayes of saluation are common to the whole body al grounded in the bloud of Christ But of any beside the bloud of Christ he saith not Yea it is clene contrarie to that which he saith ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie THus at the length with the helpe of God I am come to the end And yet the Reader must vnderstande that I finde in this man such store of this stuffe as would suffice to make another volume as big as this partly by enlarging these two last Chapters with many more of his like contradictions errors or ignorances for all the former Chapters be full freyted partly by making many new Chapters vpon new matters As one to shewe howe he behaueth himselfe in all places where he chargeth either the Catholikes doctrine or D. Allen himselfe with contradictions Another to lay together all his falsifications of the Scriptures Doctors and D. Allen by adding diminishing or chaunging their wordes Another of his most impudent facing lyes without any colour of truth Another of his detestable raylings not only at D. Allen but also at the old Doctors and at Rome and at the whole Churche which he can not auoide the Scriptures with his owne confession are so plaine for it but it is the true Church his owne Mother and Spouse of Christ Another of his ridiculous answeres to many of D. Allens Demaundes sometimes like him that answered a pokefull of plumes whē he was demaunded the way to London sometimes to answere the very same thing that is in question c. Moreouer diuers others chapters yet of Purgatorie about his answeres to D. Allens allegations to sée whether he haue so answered thē as I haue here answered al his allegations against it yea against any other Article of ours One of those Chapters might be to gather all the Scriptures alleaged by D. Allen the auncient Fathers before him and Fulkes answeres vnto them with my replies which are e dispersed in this booke like as in the 8. chapter I haue gathered al Fulkes scriptures answered thē Another of such bookes in antiquitie as he denyeth namely the workes of S. Dionysius Areopagita and the Constitutions of the Apostles by S. Clement because he could not otherwise auoide their plaine testimonies for prayer for the dead they also liuing euen in the Apostles time and familiarly with the Apostles Of which bookes notwithstanding there are such probations as can not possibly be answered Reade the Preface of Fr. Turrianus in his new edition of those Constitutions and the Preface of Mat. Galenus ad Areopagitica Cop. Dial. 2. ca. 5. as also the Preface and Scholies in the Gréeke edition by Morelius at Paris Anno. 1562. In another Chapter I might shew how vainely he laboureth to answer certaine testimonies of the other Doctors considering that he graunteth other testimonies of the very same Doctors them selues or of their seuerall times to be so euident for it that they can not be answered for which cause also he passeth by many of them with silence as that S. Augustine in one place prayed for his mothers soule and yet to stand with D. Allen about other places of his that they proue it not as though Doctors opinion and iudgement being confessed there néedeth any more to doe to be made about his sayings And yet it is nothing also which he answereth to those other places as I haue shewed in very many of them Another might be to lay together all D. Allens argumentes or reasons for it with my replies to Fulkes answeres such as I haue made in diuers places of this booke In another I could shewe that Fulke hath made no answere lightly to these Scriptures Doctors or reasons but D. Allen did foresée it afore hand warned the Reader of it and made so iust a replie vnto it as standeth still vpright euen after that Fulke hath done the worst he could Another might be to shew out of Iustinus Martyr Ireneus and Clement Alexandrinus in how many things they also make with vs most euidētly as in nothing against vs because he doth so oftē require vs to proue prayer for the dead by any of them as though he would yéeld to them although he will not to their fellowes wheras in déede he excepteth against them no lesse as I haue shewed then against the rest Another might be by occasion of his zeale for Caluine Luther and such other his Maisters and fellowes to shewe more copiously that they are worthily charged not onely with those shamefull opinions by D. Allen but also that they may be likewise charged with very many moe no lesse yea and much more shamefull then those These matters are such as being so handled would worke the further discredite of Fulke and of his side and yet being no more handled then alreadie doe leaue no blotte in our side no nor so much as in D. Allen particularly For which cause I minde not neither hereafter to prosecute them vnlesse I haue greater occasion geuen then yet I sée But presently I omitted them to auoide more prolixitie and specially because in this booke I tooke in hand to defend not D. Allen but the Church and therefore whatsoeuer
to our purpose at length he saith that the Catholikes must vnderstande that all seruice of any honor and sacrifice is giuen of the Catholike Church together both to the Father and to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost that is to the holy Trinitie For though he that offereth directeth the prayer to the person of the Father this is not any preiudice to the Sonne or to the holy Ghost He declareth it thus because The conclusion of the same prayer for so muche as it hath the name of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost sheweth that there is no difference in the Trinitie Looke in the Canon of the Masse and you shall more easily perceiue his meaning The prayer there beginneth thus being directed to the Father Te igitur clementissime pater c. Therefore ô most mercifull Father with humble supplication we beseech thee for Iesus Christ his sake thy sonne our Lorde c. And it is in the ende concluded thus Per ipsum cum ipso in ipso c. By him and with him and in him is to thee God the Father in the vnitie of the holy Ghost all honor and glory world without ende Amen Wherevpon also among his instructions to his friend Petrus Diaconus which you alleage vnder the name of S. Augustine here cap. 10. dem 24. Fulg. alia◠Aug. de fi◠de ad Pet. Diac. ca. 19 béeing too light in very diuerse companies in his pilgrimage to Hierusalem he sayth Holde most firmely and in no wise doubt but to the Sonne with the Father and the holy Ghost they did sacrifice those beastes in the time of the olde Testament And to him nowe in the newe Testament with the Father and the holy Ghost cum quibus illi est vna diuinitas he hauing one Godhead with them the H. Churche Catholike ouer all the worlde ceasseth not to offer in fayth and charitie the sacrifice of bread and wine c. Therefore you might as well haue charged Christ him selfe for directing so likewise the prayer that he taught vs Our father c. v. Of ministring the blessed Sacrament to Infantes But the other error is he saith a notable error and suche a practise as euen the Papistes them selues will confesse to be erroneous This it was S. Augustine and Pope Innocentius and al the Catholike Fathers of that time and all the Westerne Church yea all the Church excepting none but only the Pelagians ministred the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud to Infantes yea and thought it as necessarie for them as Baptisme to wit that they must receiue it or els they should be damned And will not D. Allen deny this will the Papistes them selues confesse it for so you say boldly but in your boldnesse you open withall your wilfull ignorance Fulke neuer read the Councel of Trent Who would thinke it if your selfe did not by this confesse it that you neuer read the Councell of Trent And what a presumption is this for you to preach yea and to write against the doctrine of the Catholike Church nothing regarding eyther what it is or how it is explicated defended defined by occasion of your heresies of the Catholike Bishops in their Generall Councell As if an Arrian doctor should neuer haue séene the Councel of Nice Well our countrey men may perceiue by this what blind guides they haue of you Reade the Councel of Trent I exhort both you and all other that can specially that halfe of it which is of doctrine and you wil either imbrace it as it is most worthy and as I pray God to giue you the grace or at leastwise you shall better know therby what it is that you must confute where now most of you do commonly fight only with your owne shadowes either of ignorance or which is worse of wilfulnes not knowing what in déede we teache There to our present purpose you shall find the said Councel after that it hath said Trid. Con. Se. 21. ca. 4. That Infantes lacking the vse of reason are by no necessitie bound to the sacramentall receiuing of the Eucharist to declare moreouer and say Neque ideo damnanda est antiquitas c. Neither for all that is antiquitie to be condemned if it practised that maner sometime in some places For as those most holy Fathers had pro illius temporis ratione answerable to that time sui facti probabilem causam a reasonable cause of their so doing so verily that they did it not for any necessitie to saluation without controuersie it must be beleeued This declaration of the Councell may satisfie not onely all Catholikes to whom it is the declaration of the Holy Ghost him selfe but also any other reasonable man to whom it can not possibly be lesse then the declaration of many most learned and most discrete men which knew well what they said and that they could not be therin disproued In so much that Kemnitius the Lutheran Protestant not so much as once toucheth the Councell for this though he write of purpose against the Councell Yet for more satisfaction of all men I say further to open the case particularly The heresie of the Pelagians was that Man or Fréewill of man is still notwithstanding the fall of Adam See A◠ad quo haer 88 lagian◠sufficient of his owne naturall strength without Christ or the grace of Christe to saluation And so consequently they saide children to be borne in innocencie and not in sinne The Catholikes to proue the contrarie of children alleaged the necessitie of their Baptisme confirming it by that Scripture Except one be regenerate of water non potest introire in Regnum Dei he can not enter into the kingdome of God Ioan. 3 The Pelagians séeing so plaine a text confessed they Originall sinne No hereticall pertinacie would not let them but a straunge shifte they had They graunted vpon this text that children vnbaptized should not in déede come into the kingdome of God for lacke of Baptisme but yet for their naturall innocencie without Christ they should haue life euerlasting in a certaine other place out of the kingdome of God The Catholikes replyed against that vaine shift and alleaged this text Ioan. 6 Except ye eate the fleshe of the Sonne of man and drinke his bloud non habebitis vitam in vobis you shall not haue life in you Who now would accuse those Fathers of error Yea who would not admire in them such readines to replye so properly to the purpose or let any man stand vp and say that the Pelagians are not by this confuted and their children excluded as before from the kingdome of God so now also from life and so left in death and therefore in sinne and therefore againe not innocent and all this for lacke of the Grace of Christ in Baptisme But now putting the case that a childe were baptized and then immediately died before he receiued sacramentally the Eucharist who reading innumerable places
peace with Christian charitie And much more do Prouincial Councelles yeeld to the general sine vllis ambagibus without any more adoe and much more againe particulare Doctors And yet you with your swelling of sacrilegious pride with your stubbernes of arrogant Ventositie with your contentiousnes of peuish enuy will not yeeld neyther to Prouinciall nor to general Councel neyther after their confirmation and receauing so much more desperat then those Donatistes of whom he speaketh as they had one Doctor to wit S. Cyprian plainly of their opinion and you haue nere a one and yet will neither yéeld to all the Councels together but against them all come in with your ambages and aske But where is their Scripture as here cap. 7. pag. 89. thinking that you haue a witty deuise for this your tergiuersation when you say Pur. 430. The Councelles that are receiued are therefore receiued because they decreed truely and not the truth receiued because it was decreed in Councels Else why is the determination of the Nicene Councell which is but one beleeued against tenne Councels holden by the Arrianes but that the Nicene decreed according to the worde of God all the rest against it You might aswell say The Scriptures that are receiued are therefore receiued because they are written truely and not the truth receiued because it is written in the Scriptures Els why is the Gospel according to Mathew beléeued and not the Gospel according to the twelue but that the former is the word of God and the other is not But we say that the Scriptures being once receiued into the Canon and the Councels being once receiued by the Sée Apostolike what soeuer they say must be beléeued to be truth and that then none but Heretikes do make exceptions against them And that you therfore be an Heretike who not onely against all Councels so receiued for these 900. yeres but also against the very Nicene it selfe which you your selfe receiue do take your exception of Onely Scripture and that as it were by authoritie of S. Augustine cap. 9. pag. 179. and 173.180 Motiue 12. 28. See Apostolike Now for the Sée Apostolike it selfe which as it was the confirmer so was it both the gatherer with the Emperours helpe and also the President by the Patriarches and other Bishops and sometimes Priestes also béeing her Vicares of all approued Generall Councells what soeuer * Ar. 97. you or any other Heretike affirme to the contrarie without any testimonie I saye in my 28. Demaunde that none euer but Heretikes and Schismatikes did obstinately refuse eyther the fayth or the communion of that Sée Beholde two notable examples one vnder Pope Victor about the question of Easter the other vnder Pope Stephanus about the question of Heretikes Baptisme We shall catche this Ratte in them through his owne rumbling Victor anno 200. Ar. 27.36 Pur. 373. saith he was the first that went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches He passed the bondes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Then manye Bishoppes withstoode him specially Ireneus of Lyons and Polycrates of Ephesus as a Eus li. 5. c. 23.24.25 witnesseth Eusebius But who sayth that he eyther vsurped authoritie or passed the bondes of his authoritie No doubte Polycrates and his fellowes of Asia would so haue sayd if they had béene of your opinion about the Bishop of Rome or if that Bishoppes authoritie ouer all had not béene in those Primitiue dayes a playne matter The Storie was thus The Churches of Asia minor had receyued of S. Iohn Euangelist to kéepe oure Lords Pasch or Easter day not alwayes vpon Sonday but with the Iewes vpon the 14. of the Moone In which custome the Bishops of Rome who had receiued of S. Peter and Paule the other maner did tolerate them so long as it tended to the honour of burying the Law and not to the necessitie of obseruing the Lawe But when they sawe that a b Niceph. li. 4. ca. 36. necessitie was put therein in so much that the other maner was condemned by the Iudaizing Heretike c Tertul. d◠Praes Eus li. 5. ca. 14 Blastus then loe they thought good to tolerate them no longer but S. Victor after that his b Niceph. li. 4. ca. 36. predecessours Pius Anicetus Eleutherius had sent out decrées against that maner and d Eus li. 5. ca. 22. all Bishops had ratified Decretum Ecclesiasticum the Ecclesiasticall Decree seing that they of Asia neither so obeied to walke vnto the truth of the Gospell vsing seueritie when it was high tyme commaunded them eyther to obey without any more adoe or to be depriued of the Churches communion Which censure of his did séeme to sharpe to S. Irenée and other Bishops of his owne obseruance As now also if he would excommunicate them which receaue not the Counsel of Trent it would séeme likewise to many who notwithstanding confesse that he hath authoritie ouer all But what was the end of the matter At length folowed the first Nicene Councel and confirmed the same that the Popes had commaunded in their Epistle to them of Alexandria writing this of the Asianes also You shall vnderstand Apud Theod. li. 1. ca. 9. that the controuersie of Easter is wisely pacified in so much that all our Bretheren that inhabite the East will now hereafter with one accord in keping the same followe the Romanes vs and all you So they promised the Councel And who so refused yet after that to do it were counted obstinate Heretikes Aug. Haer. 29. Soc. li. 6. ca. 10.20 Ar. 37. both in the Gréeke and Latine Church named testarescaidecaticai that is quartadecimane some such being yet in Asia in S. Chrysostomes tyme were by him as Bishop of Constantinople turned out of their Churches no lesse then the Nouatianes Lykewise saith Fulke towching the other case when Pope Stephanus threatned excōmunication to Helenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches of Asia because they thought that such as were baptized by Heretikes should be baptised againe Diony Al. ep ad Xystum Papā Succes Ste. apud Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3 4.5 he was misliked by Dionisius of Alexandria and diuers other godly Bishops Cyprian also reproueth him very sharpely for the same opinion accusing him of presumption and contumacie a Cypr. ep 74. Epist ad Pompeium And in his Epistle to b Cyp. epi. 71. Quintus he saith playnly that Peter him selfe was not so arrogant nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the Primacie and that other men should obey him as his inferiours You would make the Reader beléeue that he there saith Peter had not the Primacie wheras he saith expresly in the very same Periode Petrus quem primum Dominus elegit super quem edificauit Eccleam suam Peter whom our Lord chose the first and vpon whom he buylded his Church Neither he nor Dionysius nor Firmilianus denieth the Primacie