which you say to be true that you held all faire correspondencie with them that might be upon other grounds for your own advantage and benefit many wayes you being strangers and they in their own countrey as also to see if you could gaine any of their Ministers to your Church-way And as for your receiving some of their members unto communion in the Sacraments that might be but to strengthen your own way and to advance that Church-principle of receiving them by vertue of their relation of membership And here I desire to put two questions to you 1. Whether in receiving some members of the Dutch Churches who desired to communicate with you you put them upon professing themselves to be members of their Churches and belonging thereunto as you did the English who came to you 2. Though you received some of them unto communion in your Churches whether any of you ever received the Lords Supper in any of their Churches or in any of the English Churches in Holland who were not of your way and communion But grant all you say in all your profession of your respect and holding communion with the Dutch Churches whereby you would free your selves from the imputation of Separation and make the Reader beleeve the Brownists and you had no affinity I answer You say no more nor hardly so much as Mr Robinson writ in his Apologie 25 yeares since of those Reformed Churches page 10 11. Now for the way and practise of our Churches we give this briefe and generall account Our publike worship was made up of no other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches doth consist of As publike and solemne prayers for Kings and all in authority c. the reading the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament Exposition of them as occasion was and constant preaching of the word the administration of the two Sacraments Baptisme to Infants and the Lords Supper singing of Psalmes collections for the poore c. every Lords day For Officers and publike Rulers in the Church we set up no other but the very same which the reformed Churches judge necessary and sufficient and as Instituted by Christ and his Apostles for the perpetuall government of his Church that is Pastors Teachers Ruling-Elders with us not lay but Ecclesiastique persons separated to that service and Deacons And for the matter of government and censures of the Church we had nor executed any other but what all acknowledge namely Admonition and Excommunication upon obstinacie and impenitency which we blesse God we never exercised This latter we judged should be put in execution for no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light as whether it be a sin in manners and conversation such as is committed against the light of nature or the common received practises of Christianity professed in all the Churches of Christ or if in opinions then such as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity and the power of godlinesse professed by the party himselfe and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sins to be the subject of that dreadfull sentence In this Section you give us a Narration of the way and practises of your Churches Wherein in the beginning you tell the Reader We give this briefe and generall account But how much better had it been and more proper to have given a full and particular account here then in your other parts about New-England and the Reformed Churches in Holland A full and particular account of the way and practises of your Churches had answered more the nature of such a Narration and would have satisfied all men but why did you in the most materiall part give such a briefe and generall account knowing that under brevities and generalities there lies much mistake and deceit And let me tell you this briefe and generall account falls short of your way and practises and either you had bad memories in your writing this Apologie about the parts of your worship Officers and censures to forget some of them or else you have on purpose conceal'd them holding out the bright side of the cloud namely what the Reformed Churches practise but hiding the back which is so much the more justly to be excepted against because as you set down the words and give the account they are not true but I can say and make it good too your publike worship was made up of other parts then the worship of all other Reformed Churches namely of Prophesying in your Congregations and for Officers and publike Rulers in the Church you set up others then the reformed Churches namely Widdowes And for the matter of government and censures of the Church you have executed others besides Admonition and Excommunication namely deposition of a Minister and confession of offences publikely and orderings of solemne Fasting for Humiliation upon confession of sins as your selves relate the story in the 16th page and one and twentieth besides you hold other censures of the Church the Sentence of of Non-communion with Declaration and Protestation to all other Churches as appeares by your own relation page 17 18 19. For publike worship that you exercised prophecying I could name unto you who of the members have prophecied at Arnheim and upon what subject but I spare them I could tell you how Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson fell out upon the point of Prophecie as Mr Bridge informed me and of the exercising of Prophesie in Mr Sympsons Church at Rotterdam as well as at Arnheim I could out of manuscripts produce how arguments are framed to draw away people from our Churches upon this ground as being defective in some ordinances namely prophesying And besides prophesying I propound it to you whether some of you have not held out some other publike worship then the reformed Churches hold namely Hymns and annointing the sick members of the Church with oyle As also whether a little before your comming over into England some members of the Church of Arnheim did not propound the holy kisse or the kisse of love to be practised by Church-members Nay whether by some persons in that Church was it not begun to be used and practised And in this enumeration of the parts of publike worship I desire to know why you put in c. and what is meant by c. for that implies more parts then you enumerate And we know c. is a dangerous and suspicious phrase ever since the late Canons and Oath for under that c. may be meant Prophesying and Hymnes and Annointing with oyle and the Kisse of love and many other parts which the reformed Churches practise not and so your publike worship may be made up of many other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches and that there is great cause to speake thus and doubt appeares because I know not nor cannot reckon up any other part of publike worship
matters of greatest moment and controversie we still choose to practise safely and so as we had reason to judge that all sorts or the most of all the Churches did acknowledge warrantable although they make additaments thereunto To this third great principle of yours I answer 1. To it generally as you lay it downe here generally and afterwards more particularly to the instances and particulars brought by you to make it good In this principle you labour to cast an odium upon all the reformed Churches who differ from you dealing by them in such a medium and way as the Protestants doe by the Papists wheras we alleadge against the Papists that the Protestant Religion is via tuta and what we practise they themselves cannot but allow only they hold and practise over and above as namely they adde to Christs Righteousnesse their own in the point of Justification to Christs intercession the intercession of the Virgin Mary and Saints to prayers unto God prayers to Angels and Saints to the Scriptures the traditions of the Church to our Sacraments confest by themselves five others c. So here you say that you chose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge other Churches did acknowledge warrantable but they make additaments and this you weave in all along in the particular instances under this head and it lyes upon them to prove what they adde over and above Now besides the great dissimilitude and difference of additaments in the things themselves between the Protestants and Papists and you and the reformed Churches the Papists additaments being in matters of faith and substance of worship but the matters excepted against by you being about outward government and order and that not so much about the things themselves the officers parts of worship but about the different manner and way of them as you acknowledge in your eighth pages and so you had no such cause to insinuate such matters against the reformed Churches yet consider that what you doe hold forth and take as your medium you have no good ground for which will appeare in three particulars and so your Apologie held forth unto the world is neither true nor just 1. I will demonstrate that in many matters of greatest moment and controversie you did not still choose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge that all sorts or most of the Churches did acknowledge warrantable 2. That the reformed Churches practised more safely then you and did not make additaments as you charge them 3. That you in many Church practises have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then in such circumstances wherein you tax the reformed Churches For the first of these three Take these three Instances for the present 1. It is a matter of great moment and controversie to forsake the publike Assemblies which you confesse are true Churches and the body of Christ and to set up separated assemblies without and against the leave of the Magistrate Ministers and Churches This is by the judgment of all the godly and learned Divines of note both in other Churches and in our own condemned as unlawfull by Calvin Beza Peter Martyr Zanchius Bullinger Iunius Pareus Morneus Arnesius Voetius c. with Whitakers Brightman Perkins Cartwright Parker Banes Hildersham Ball. c. I could fill a booke with the testimonies of these and many others and I doe challenge the Separatists of all sorts whether them of the head-forme the Anabaptists or of the middle-forme the old Brownists or the lowest-forme the Semi-Separatists to give me any precept or allowed example of such a practise out of the Primitive patterne shew it me and I will yeild the cause As for that place Rev. 18. 4. you professe against that in your 6 t page of having any thoughts of our Churches or Ministers to be Antichristian and Babilonish I could alledge many Scriptures against this practise Iude v. 19 c. The Apostles who were sent by Christ into the world to make Disciples and to bring men from Judaisme and Heathenisme to beleeve in Christ and to plant Churches of such yet they never taught nor practised to gather and separate some Christians from the rest one part of the Church from the other to goe constitute a purer Church neither in Corinth Philippi c. Although there were many corruptions and many loose persons But Paul taught and practised to censure and cast out evill persons but in case those who had power neglected their duty he never taught the godly to separate from the Lords Supper celebrated in the publike Assemblies much lesse for a few to withdraw from their Pastours and other brethren and to set up new Churches of themselves You are Schollers and well read in the Scriptures shew me but any such direction from the Apostles and I am yours 2. It is a matter of moment and controversie the right making and calling of the Ministers of the Gospell now all the reformed Churches according to the examples of Scripture hold Ministers are not to be made by the people alone and that the people have not power of Ordination and Imposition of hands but the Presbyters and yet you have practised the being cal'd and made Ministers by the people without the Imposition of hands of the preaching Presbyters 3. It is a matter of great moment and controversie whether private Christians who were never trained up in Arts and learning nor intended the Ministery may in the publike Congregation Prophesie which Prophesying as it is not practised by the Reformed Churches so by most of them it is not counted warrantable and yet you allowed it in your Churches to which I might adde more instances but that the book would swell into too great a volume To the second head it is evident the râ—…formed Churchs practised more safely as in declining your way in the last mentioned Instances in not permitting such as are Lay-men to preach or prophesie in not forsaking true Churches or true Ministery for the mixture of wicked men but rather casting out such who after admonition continue impenitent so in other practises practising as the Apostles receiving men into their fellowship without any such curious inquirie and long detention sending men from one to another and requiring such preparatives and conditions to Church-fellowship as your Churches have done The wayes and practises the reformed Churches walked in were the good old way knowne and beaten for some score of yeares in which so many great lights and godly people have walkt and so more safe then bie and new wayes that a few men but of yesterday have taken up and have not yet well aired much lesse digested And in the name of other reformed Churches France Holland Scotland I deny the things you charge them with to be additaments or to be properly so called for if the particulars instanced in by you will be found to have a footing in the Scriptures and practised
true Churches namely your seeing that if you had accounted our Churches no true Churches that by the same reason the Churches abroad in Scotland Holland c. yet for their mixture must in like manner be judged no Churches also I answer 't is no concluding Argument M. Robinson who was quick-sighted and lived in Holland long and seeing their mixture yet acknowledges those Churches true but denies ours to be true upon other grounds besides the mixture and 't is evident your reason is insufficient for if your description of a visible Church were only upon difference in the point of mixture and your grounds of separation only upon mixt communion then your Reason had some weight in it but you know your exceptions were many against our Churches which lay not against the Reformed Churches but it is strange to me if you were so good at consequences that you saw and could not but see when there was no necessitie of seeing you could not see the necessarie consequences of your principles about a Church and Ministerie nay not see even your contradictions For let a man but take your owne Positions and Assertions concerning a true visible Church and the true calling of Ministers and lay together your quarrelling with us and leaving us upon those grounds because we have no such Churches and Ministers and yeâ—… to affirme that multitudes of our Parochiall Churches are true Churches And certainly however you who are Schollars might be such good Logicians to make such distinctions to salve all as you conceited yet your people could not but they from your principles and positions about Church Ministerie Worship and Government have judged us no true Churches nor true Ministers but have wondred at this sincere profession of yours before God and the world concerning our Churches and Ministers saying they understood you otherwise and they were much deceived if you held not otherwise at first though now you expresse your selves after this manner And I can hardly beleeve had you made alwaies and frequently such professions of our Churches and Ministers and of keeping communion with them as the Churches of Christ that ever so many had fallen off to your way But thus 't is in all the way of errours men by sits will expresse things as other men do who are Orthodox but yet in a sence of their own to avoid exceptions and that they may be thought to hold as others do therby the more to draw and work some men off to their way when yet in the common sense and understanding of the points they hold otherwise As the Socinians say they hold Christ God and call him so but in a sence of their own and yet denie it in the Orthodox sense So Pelagians and Arminians will extoll the grace of God and that a man can doe nothing without it and yet in that sence wherein the controversie is they set up free-will above the grace of God And so Antinomians will say they doe not denie the law of God and yet in the sense controverted are flat against it And so the Papists will say they hold and looke to be saved by Christ as well as any Protestant though it 's well knowne there is a great difference betweene them in the point of Justification So you and many of your way in a sense of your owne give us good words and say we have true Churches and true Ministerie and yet in the sense of the controversie you teach flat contrary as doth appeare both by printed Tractâ—…tes and by manuscripts and many practises As to that Profession in this Section That in the times when the Churches of England were most either actually overspread with defilements or in the greatest danger therof that we both did and would bold a communion with them as the Churches of Christ I answer what doe I heare words when I see deeds so contrary How can I beleeve this profession that ye would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ under their greatest defilements when as you have never held communion with any of them in the time of their greatest reformation and puritie In this three yeares last since your comming over wherein we have been so free from pollution in worship and since that in so many Churches in London there hath bin the totall laying aside of prescribed formes of prayer and that great care to keepe away both ignorant and prophane persons Which of you five have received the Lords Supper in any of these true Churches and bodies of Christ I never could learne that any of you five nor any of the members of your Churches have communicated with us I can tell you of the adding to your Church Assemblies great numbers since and of your receiving the Lords Supper at night in private houses and how some of you who have not Churches here in London goe to separated Churches to partake in the Lords Supper But Brethren why doe you deale thus and write thus to make men beleeve as if you held great communion with our Churches now who would have held it with them in such bad times I desire you to speake plaine English and not to speake after this manner as you doe too often in this Apologie and to interpret to us in your Reply to this Answer what you meane by both Did and Would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ I know no communion you did hold or doe with us now though so reformed And if you do and will what means that wall of partition between us your new constituted Churches As for thâ—…â—…aring of Sermons sometimes in our Churches and preachiâ—…g in our Congregations I doubt whether you hold that a keeping communion with our Churches and Ministers but rather preach as gifted men and heare ours as gifted men and how ever if M. Robinson and some of your way may be beleeved they hold hearing of the Word no Act of Communion nor no proper nor peculiar thing of the Church And that you are of the same judgement I have great reason both from your principles and practise to thinke so As for that reall testimonie besides your profession That some of us after we actually were in this way of communion baptized our children in Parishionall Congregations whereby you would inferre you held a communion with our Congations as the Churches of Christ I answer this is no reall testimony thereof because it cannot be understood but in the sense before opened of Churches and Ministery And besides if Mr Sympson were one of this Some who baptized his children in Parishionall Congregations 't is so inconsistent with what he writ in the Letter before quoted of the Church and baptisme that I know not how to reconcile these together And the truth is many of your practises are oft times so in-coherent with some of your principles of Church-fellowship as for instance Pastors are necessary Officers in your Churches and yet according
not deale fairely in abridging the Scriptures and making your supreme rule so narrow as the Acts and Epistles and I might justly stand upon it to make you inlarge your rule to the books both of Old and new Testament yet well knowing the Acts of Apostles and Epistles will cast you I am well contented and most ready at that weapon alone to try it with you and care not in the present controversie of the Church-way as to let all other Authours so for the old Testament and that part of the New too the Gospells to stand by And if you can make good out of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles by any Apostolike direction patterne or example of those Primitive Churches directed by the Apostles many things you practise and maintaine as Ordination of Ministers by the people alone as your Church-covenant as a few private Christians to gather and constitute a Church as persons to be members of such Congregations where they live constantly many miles distant from their Ministers and the meeting places with other such I will yeeld the cause and if I make not good from the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles things mainly opposed by you but affirmed by us As that of particular Churches to consist of more then can meet in one place to be edified in all parts of worship with other such then blame me So that I may say of your Church-way and the questions between us as Tertullian answered long since some hereticks That if they were to be determined by the Scriptures they would not subsist Now as to the ground of this principle within you yeur consciences were possest with that reverence and adoration of the fullnesse of the Scriptures that there is therein a compleate sufficiency as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect c. First I answer Your ground here alledged doth not prove your supreame rule without you namely the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles to be compleatly sufficient to make the Churches of God perfect because that speakes as of the whole Scriptures that there is in them a compleat sufficiencie and not as of a part now though the Scriptures may be and are so full and perfect yet every part may not you can in reason conceive that the whole may be compleatly sufficient to all ends and uses for which it was intended when a part or parts may not suffice And that Scripture which you allude unto for proofe 2 Tim. 3. v. 16 17. speakes of the whole Scripture and not of a part only the Papists would have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that text to signifie non totam sed omnem Scripturam and so would give that praise not to the whole body of the Scriptures but to particular parts of it Learned Chamier snewes the contrary how that the whole Scripture is here rather to be understood and he proves it by a threefold argument and in this great question between us and the Papists An Scriptura Christianum perfâ—…ctum reddat resolves the question to be understood of the whole canon in the Old and new Testament And so doth Dr Whitakers by which you may judge how unsufficient and short your first principle was being only a part of the Scriptures but not the whole and you may observe the fallaciousnesse of your reason propounded to argue from the whole to a part because the whole Scriptures have a compleat sufficiencie to make the Churches of God perfect therefore the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles have too Secondly I doe also adore the fullnesse of the Scriptures and God forbid that I should take from the Scriptures any thing God gives unto them or that which in the Scripture is attributed unto it but we must not give unto the Scriptures more then what God intended them for or what the Scripture affirmes of it selfe for that is to be wise above what is written and to adde unto the word and may be and hath been a ground of dangerous consequence in the Church of God and to cleare it from your own instances of exception Meere circumstances we except c. Now suppose some to speake as you doe and to be really acted also upon the same ground of the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures should yet affirme of the Scriptures without all exception of me 〈◊〉 circumstances and of the rules which the law of nature doth in common dictate and should say nothing must be practised no not in meere circumstances but by some direction from the word and as for the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate in them also the Scripture gives light how to doe them and thereupon should speake as you doe all along in this Section would not this prove inconvenient and trouble you in your Churches Nay suppose some should so extoll the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that they should hold them so perfect and sufficient for all Christians as to be a perfect rule for all civill government and that Chrstian common-wealths ought to be governed by lawes only there recorded and by no other which opinion in substance Carolostadius held That in Courts of justice Judges should not proceed according to humane laws but according to the law of Moses and so for Military practises should hold all the way of Warre must be founded upon the Scriptures and thereupon should clamour against any other art and way of Warre then what was practised there What would you reply to these men or what strength were there in such principles would not you answer them in what sense the Scriptures were perfect and how they must understand it Men have often by giving more to the most excellent creatures and things then the Scriptures allow fallen into great errors and mistakes The Papists and Ubiquitaries speake highly of the body of Christ and 't is all in the way of magnifying it and Schuvenckfeldius did boast himselfe to be the Assertor of the glory of the flesh of Christ in Heaven which other Preachers neglected or else opposed and yet all these held great errors about the body and humane nature of Christ under the notion of advancing it So in the present controversie by giving to the Scriptures that which God hath not given to them both is and may be a ground of error And therefore I referre you for the true sense of that question concerning the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to make the Churches of God perfect unto the answers our Protestant Divines give the Papists in that controversie about the perfection of the Scriptures And by the way let me commend to you and all the Ministers of the Church-way to study our Protestant writers as Whitakers Chamier c. against the Papists upon the Church and of the notes of the visible Church upon the controversie concerning the
or direction and pray in your Reply to this answer shew me what cleare Resolution you saw from Scripture for your Church-covenant If it be so cleare shew it us What came the word of God out from you or came it to you only hath God given us eyes to see and know the mysteries of his kingdome to see such things as no glorious hypocrite in the highest forme can see and can we not see what is common to hypocrites as well as to true Saints Certainly had Mr Goodwin had such cleare resolution from Scripture for the Church-covenant he would never have returned such an answer after so long a time of receiving Mr Iohn Goodwins letter written with such Giant-like confidence against the Church-covenant as to desire after many weeks longer day to give satisfaction in regard Church-covenant lay so deepe and remote amongst the fundamentals of Church-fellowship which debt I beleeve was never yet paid to this day I should be loath for my part in any thing I practise or hold to have a cleare resolution from Scripture to put off my Brother for proofe of it till to morrow Give me an Apostolicall example or rule if you can where ever the people alone made Ministers why did you not here suspend how durst you be made Ministers in this way by the people alone and either be Ministers without Imposition of hands at all or if any Imposition not by the laying-on of the hands of the Presbyterie but the hands of the people both which are not onely without any example of Scripture but against the Primitive patterne and example Give me a Primitive patterne wherein baptized persons professing the faith of Christ and walking so may not be admitted to Fellowship and communion in the Lords Supper without professing their membership of some particular Congregation Give me a word either of precept or example where ever the lay-Elders did examine persons professing the faith whether they were fit for Church-fellowship and thereupon did propound their names in the Congregation with many such particulars so that you have dared to eeke out divine matters with your owne inventions not indeed with humane Prudence but against humane Prudence and reason as that instance in the way of your making Ministers by the people clearely shewes And I desire that you and others would consider what I say upon this occasion that this is so preposterous and irrationall a rule that had you indeed or should others observe it to practise nothing in matter of externall order unlesse you have a cleare resolution from Scripture in an example or direction you had never met together in a Church-way nor can any society or company of men meet to those ends of constituting a Church and Government and walking in the practise of it but that some things must be done not particularly mentioned in the Scriptures As for your calling humane prudence the fatall errour to Reformation I judge that the want of it in Reformation hath still proved fatall as amongst the Anabaptists Brownists and in New-England also till humane prudence eeked out what was defective in the way of their gathering Churches at the first and till humane prudence punished by banishment and imprisonment under the name of disturbers of the civill peace many members of their Churches for Familisme Anabaptisme c. without which courses and others or the like kinde their Churches and Common-wealth had beene long agoâ—… ruined And I much wonder you stile humane prudence the fatall errour to Reformation and make Reformation of the Church and humane prudence so opposite especially you your selves knowing and expressing in the 28th page of your Apologie the calling of this Assembly of Divines The way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State I suppose you call it not the way of God as holding there is a cleare resolution from Scripture in any Apostolicall primitive patterne of the Churches erected by the Apostles of an Aâ—…embly so chosen by the Magistrates to draw up a govâ—…ment and direction in worship for so many Châ—…s many of which Churchâ—… have not so much as any one of their members there but onely a way of God according to generall rules and Prudence and so wisely assumed by the Parliament and yet I hope you and your party will not afterwards if the Assembly should determine against Independencie stile that the fatall errour to Reformation But how ever we gaine thus much from your being members of the Assembly voting in it and calling your selves by that name Members of the Assembly of Divines namely a cleare answer that humane prudence is not alwayes a fatall errour to Reformation and that a man needs not alwaies suspend his practise though he have not a cleare resolution of example or direction from the Primitive Churches witnesse the acceptance of your being chosen to the Assembly As to that Metaphoricall expression of yours the ground of your judging humane prudence so fatall to Reformation Least by sowing any peece of the old garment to the new you should make the rent worse I answer if that be not understood aright and soberly it hath been and will be the ground of great deformation in the Church and of running into errours on the right hand Thus the Anabaptists least they should sow any peece of the old garment unto the new renounce their Baptisme and the Brownists will have the materiall Churches pull'd downe and our Ministers and Congregations quite made null and all our Ministers and Congregations newly ordained and constituted The ground of which mistakes ariseth from not considering the difference between the gathering and planting a Church out of Iudaisme and Heathenisme and the purging and building up a Church corrupted and fallen As for that promise of encouragement made to such a suspension which you say in your publike Assemblies was for your comfort often mentioned you should have done well to have quoted the text and then I might have examined the place whether there had been a foundation for any such promise to a few persons in a particular Congregation withdrawing from the fellowship of other Churches and forbearing all things in matter of externall order though agreed upon by other Churches without a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction that in so doing they should know more in the matter of order and government A second Principle we carried along with us in all our resolutions was not to make our present judgement and practise a binding law unto our selves for the future which we in like manner made continuall profession of upon all occasions We had too great an instance of our own frailty in the former way of our conformity and therefore in a jealousie of our selves we kept this reserve which we made open and constant professions of to alter and retract though not lightly what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a mis-understanding of the rule Which principle we wish were next to
in the Primitive Apostolicall Churches then they will be no additaments or if some of those things alleadged by you be of the nature of circumstances in the point of government and order or according to the rules of the law of nature and the rules of common prudence agreeable also to the generall rules of the word then they are not truly by you called additaments and super-additions for it is one thing to adde to the word of God and his worship and another thing from generall rules of the word and common principles of the light of nature and prudence considering the differences of times places persons dispensations of guifts to explicate and determine of many things in the administration of the visible Church Now of things of this kind something must be which the word of God presupposes or else you can have no setled government in the Church and you may as well stile set Catechismes confessions of Faith reading of Chapters translated by others singing of Psalmes between Chapters and after Sermons preaching constantly upon Texts of Scripture giving thanks after eating meat c. additaments as some of the things instanced in by you And let me hint this to you which I know you understand well enough but forget it often to paralell it with other passages that in your practise of the administration of the Sacraments and in other parts of worship you adde severall things besides what is recorded of Christ or the Apostles practise or given particularly in any precept which I speake not to blame such practises but to minde you such things are not fitly stiled additaments To the third that you have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then the reformed Churches being your selves guilty of what you accuse them this being the strongest plea and the only plea to speake of in all your book by way of Argument the rest being bare narrations I shall make good against you by particular instances the prooving of which practises of yours from Apostolicall directions must rest upon you who doe them and in so doing have departed from your selves and other reformed Churches amongst many particulars take these following To the Ministeriall preaching and dispensation of the word you subjoyned prophesying by the people 2. To the power of government by the Officers of the Church you have added the power of the people 3. In joyning in particular Congregations you did super-adde the Church-covenant 4. To the Pastour you super-adde the Teacher as a necessary distinct Officer from him and so necessary as in one of your Churches you had two Teachers and have been some yeares without a Pastour at all which is a sad condition for people to be without a Sheapheard 5. To the Deacon you added the Church-widdow as a distinct Officer and as necessary for the perpetuall government of the Church 6. To our Parochiall Assemblies in England which you call in the sixt page the true Churches and body of Christ and abhorre the thought of counting them Antichristian where you say you hold communion as with true Churches you have super-added and erected new-Churches 7. To our Ministery of the Parochiall Assemblies which is true also by your own confession and not Antichristian you have superinstituted and superinducted another Ministery any one of which particulars to be laid downe in the Primitive patterne I professedly deny and it rests upon you who allow what reformed Churches practise but in the particulars instanced and many more doe practise over and above what the reformed Churches doe to make evident and demonstrate upon cleare grounds especially when men set up a new way and leave the practise of all reformed Churches double light being required for separation in any kind whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing And certainly of all other things in the matter of practise in the visible Church the medling with the keyes of the kingdome of God both in doctrine and discipline with the withdrawing and forsaking the true Churches of Christ and the Ministerie thereof wherein men have been converted and built up and have converted and built-up so many with the setting up of new Churches against the leave and will of the civill Magistrate without the consent of those Churches departed from and to the scandall and griefe of so many godly Ministers and Christians nay the scandall of all Reformed Churches and all this under pretence of spirituall power and liberty purchased for them by Christ had need have a cleare and full proofe and not be built only upon such weake and slight grounds as flattering similitudes witty allusions remote consequences strained and forced Interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures And now by what I have alreadie answered to this Principle in these three particulars let the indifferent Reader and your owne consciences be judge whether you or the Reformed Churches practise most safely and doe that which most Churches acknowledge warrantable and who is most guilty of making additaments when as you and all of your way allow that which they practise in the seven particulars instanced in but you practise many things which all Churches condemne excepting the Churches of the Independent way and if one thing be considered to what I have said that you put the weight and stampe of divine Institution and of necessitie upon your additaments making them parts of worship and essentiall as upon prophecying as upon the office of teachers distinct from Pastours c. but the Reformed Churches in what you call their additaments even in some of them instanced in by you put not so great an authoritie but only an allowance and lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer prescribed not a necessity but a lawfulnesse of mixtures in Congregations so as not to leave the Church for that and in other practises you count additaments in matters circumstantiall of time place manner and way of doing things which upon good reasons may be changed so that here is a wide difference between that which you call their additaments and yours truly so called and let me adde this that the great pinch of a conscience and the poyson in Ecclesiasticall matters concerning outward Government and order wherein the Scripture hath not laid downe a particular rule for lyes in the stampe of putting a necessitie and a divine Institution upon them and unto such and of such is that Scripture spoken so frequently in the mouthes of men of your way In vaine doe you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandements of men For instance whereas one great controversie of these times is about the qualification of the Members of Churches and the promiscuous receiving and mixture of good and bad therein we chose the better part and to be sure received in none but such as all the Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull And yet in this we are able to make this true and just profession
aâ—…itted to fellowship with you in the Lords Supper whether would you have admitted us Now to that passage of yours in the close of this first instance and Churches made up of such we were sure no Protestant could but approve of c. This goes upon the mistake observed by me before That the question in controversie about Church-members is not nor cannot be meant Whether Churches made up of such members as all account faithfull be by all Protestants approved of to be true Churches with whom communion may be held But whether communion may not be held with such Churches and such received into communion and fellowship of Churches whom many Churches especially yours and those of the Church-way doe not upon your principles acknowledge true and fit matter And in this I am sure all Protestants of note are against you and for us accounting such visible Churches as you here instance in an Utopia holding it Donatisme and Anabaptisme and when the Papists doe in their writings father upon them such a visible Church as you dreame of and such principles as you hold they disclaime it as learned Whitakers it being the constant opinion of all the great Protestant Divines Calvin Luther Zanchius Iunius c. That the visible Church of Christ consists of good and bad resembled therefore to a field net floore where chasse as well as good graine c. Againe concerning the great ordinance of publike Prayer and the Liturgie of the Church whereas there is this great controversie upon it about the lawfulnesse of set-formes prescribed we practised without condemning others what all sides doe allow and themselves doe practise also that the publicke prayers in our Assemblies should be framed by the meditations and studie of our owne Ministers out of their owne gifts the fruits of Christs Ascension as well as their Sermons use to be This we were sure all allowed of though they super-added the other To this 2d Instance concerning the great ordinance of publicke prayer and the Liturgie of the Church I shall give you one Answer after another following you according to your expressions upon it wherein I finde you like your selves in the other precedent parts in generals and in the darke so as few Readers can tell by your Narration here what you hold and practise about publike prayer 1. Wheras you say There is this great controversie upon it about the lawfulnesse of set-formes prescribed I must tell you this great controversie upon it is raised onely by your selves and the Brownists there being no Divines nor no Reformed Churches that I know of but doe allow the lawfull use of set-formes of prayer composed and framed by others as by Synods and Assemblies and doe make use of such sometimes as the Churches of France and Holland in the administration of Sacraments usually doe and those who practise them not so much yet at least hold them lawfull And I challenge you in all your reading to name one Divine of note and Orthodox that ever held set-formes of prayer prescribed unlawfull excepting only Independents 2. What understand you by set-formes prescribed whether prayers onely made and framed by others As suppose by an Assembly or Synod but yet not imposed or whether prayers composed by others and then prescribed and required by authoritie to be used Now if you say you understand it in the second sence that you question the lawfulnesse of that but not in the first I aske you whether you will practise and doe hold it lawfull to use in your Assemblies Prayers made and framed by others As suppose a directory for worship which I the rather aske you because your words afterwards hinted as the ground for your owne practise and against the practises of the Reformed Churches speake against all set-formes of prayer composed by others That the publike prayers in our Assemblies should be framed by the meditations and studie of our owne Ministers out of their owne gifts which reacheth to all prayers framed by other men though they be left at libertie to use or not use them And further this argument of yours speakes only against formes of prayer as in the first sence but speaks not at all to it as imposed and enjoyned but let your expressions of set-formes of prayer prescribed be taken in the second sence yet I am readie to maintaine against you that set-formes of Prayer lawfull for their materials and establisht by a lawfull power to be used in the publick Assemblies may lawfully be practised by Ministers and the people safely joyne in them 3. As I askt of you in what sence you tooke set-formes prescribed so I desire to know whether in the questioning of the lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer you understand onely formes of prayer framed by men and Ministers in the Church or whether not also prayers recorded in the Scriptures as for instance the Lords prayer whether ever you practise the use of that in your Assemblies which question I make because I never heard that any of you five ever used the Lords prayer either in your owne Assemblies or in ours nor indeed that any of your way did it being now made by many a note of a Formalist Now if you account the use of it lawfull considering the great offence the totall disuse of it gives to many and how it hinders the word to many considering that Scripture with other like 1 Cor. 10. 32. I wonder how you dare neglect it and by the way let me tell you that 1 Cor. 10. 32. is stronger to command you the use of the Lords prayer then for what it is alleadged by you in the 17. page namely for your principle of submission of Churches c. And I propound to you further whether if some other prayers word for word recorded in the Scriptures should be put into a directorie you would use them As also whether you would practise the reading of set Psalmes and Chapters appointed out for you 4. As for the practising your owne prayers without condemning others I answer that is not so 1. Because you bring many arguments against set-formes of prayer framed by others and prescribed that amount to a condemnation in a high nature terming such prayers will-worship inventions of men as is evident both by Manuscripts and by printed Discourses of Mr Davenports M. Cottons M. Nyes 2. You with-drew from our Sacraments and publicke Assemblies upon this ground and have drawne many away with you and have set up new Churches But it may be you will in this Narration have this evasion that though you condemne the practise yet not all the persons that use them you doe not condemne them as ungodly I answer no more doe the rigid Brownists nor Anabaptists who yet condemne sufficiently our Churches and our prayers and yours too for they acknowledge both you and us to have eminent personall graces 5. As to that Argument brought by you for conceived prayers but against set-formes made by
infallibly and necessarily a particular Church to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation yet they never intended it as against the reformed Churches Now you know the saying Authoris aliud agentis parva est authâ—…ritas But shew us where ever the old non-conformists as against the reformed Churches held so It will appeare by Gerson Bucerus and by the practise of the reformed Churches in Geneva and Holland for which Mr Robinson so objects against them in his Apologie that though they were against the government of Bishops and Diocesan Churches that is of a head Church over many Congregations united to it yet not of a particular Church of such a City consisting of many particular Congregations And as for that you take for granted by all that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation it is denied you For some Divines as Danaeus and Cartwright as I remember hold it not necessary for every small Congregation in villages but for Cities and more populous places to which the lesser villages being conjoyned have the benefit and support of all the Elders and Ministers in the exercising of government As for that you say Others of them calling the combination of Churches Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised that others was Mr Parker who in his Politia Ecclesiastica gives us this distinction and was the first who brought it up as ever I read of who differing from Mr Baynes and other non-conformists and most Divines of the reformed Churches in the subject of the power of the keyes giving it to the body of the Church agreeing therein too much with you no wonder he called particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae But as he was mistaken in the first receptacle and subject of the power of the keyes so he might be in his distinction of Ecclesiae primae and ortae For the first Churches namely that of Ierusalem Rome Ephesus with others were not particular Congregations but Churches consisting of many Congregations severall meeting places some preaching in one place and others in other places but governed by the Elders in common which City Churches were the first Churches still first planted by the Apostles and particular Congregations in villages were Ecclesiae ortae the City Churches in this sence being the mothers and the particular Congregations rather the daughters the full proofe and demonstration whereof I referre to a tractate I intend about the nature of the visible Church But by what I have answered upon this head the Reader may observe there is not all granted which you tooke for granted from the Reformed Churches and the Non-conformists and what is yeelded slowes from another spring and is upon another ground writing against Diocesan Bishops quite another controversie but otherwise even when Non-conformists have come to write against the separation and upon the nature of a visible Church as Mr Ball a they hold the contrary And for learned men of other Churches even when they writ against Episcopacie yet they were farre from holding that a particular visible Church was only a particular Congregation as Gersom Bucerus in his answer to D â— Downham A particular Church is any companie of beleevers conjoyned in the observation of holy ordinances and united to one Presbyterie keeping their meetings in one or more places For the number of Parishes in which they meet is a thing accidentall being nothing at all to the essence of a particular Church And even the Non-conformists you speake of as it appeares by the wary expressions your selves use of them namely infallibly and necessarily doe even give the cause For that is as you imply the Non-conformists in their answers could not denie but probably the number of beleevers were so numerous as to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first timâ—…s though not infallibly and rationally though not necessarily Now in points of externall order and government which depend upon the story and circumstances of time and place how many things are there practised but of presumption though not of certainty and though they cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved so as to stop all mouthes and all that the wit of man can possibly finde out yet if the things asserted can be but probably proved upon better reasons then the contrary we may encline to that as to the safer part How many practises and tenents have you in your Church-way that cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved but stronger answers may be and are given to the reasons you bring for them then any the Non-conformists could give to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem and yet you hold to your principles for all that and it is a rule hath been pleaded by some of you that in things of that nature where the Scripture is not expresse but holds them out most probably though not infallibly and necessarily yet we ought to encline to that As for Mr Baynes answer though directed against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem it is no whit satisfactorie nor concluding to any man who is of another judgement as the Reader may reade in the 15. and 16. page of the Dioces Tryall To the 3d particular under the first head namely what you allow and grant about a Church and the Government that you could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one Citie at the first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their owne Elders that also preached to them and that you could not but judge it a safe and an allowed way to retaine the government of your severall Congregations for matter of discipline within themselves to be exercised by their owne Elders c. In way of answer I must first complaine of your old fault the slippery and uncertaine expressions used in the relation of what you owne and allow about a Church in those phrases the first Churches ordinarily and at first I demand the reason of you why you put in ordinarily and at first was it not because you fore-saw the Church of Ierusalem and some few others recorded in the New Testament though not in the first Chapter of the Acts and at the beginning yet would at last by the 8. of the Acts and Acts 21. amount to more then could meet in one Congregation and therefore you exprest it so Is this faire dealing or what other reason can you give for using such doubtfull expressions the question is not betweene you and us whether all the Churches and most of the Churches or whether at first and in the beginning of them they consisted of no more in one City then to make up one Congregation but whether the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles be it first or last sooner or later gives any patterne or example of
a particular Church exceeding the number of them who may ordinarily meet together in one place for the worshipping of God and the sanctification of the Lords-day which if it can be proved overthrowes M. Robinsons M. Cottons definitions of Churcheâ—… and your principles who all keepe to this as to a foundation upon which is built many of your other practises For we know at first the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches were not more numerous then to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation neither could it be expected that all should come in at first and we know for many other Churches the Scriptures doe not so particularly relate the growth and accessions of them But if any one instance can be given it is not materiall whether first or last sooner or later whether in the beginning middle or end of the story for then your Positions and assertions of a particular visible Church are overthrowne for one affirmative overthrowes a universall negative And I aske of you whether you take ordinarily here as opposed to extraordinary or take ordinarily for commonly as opposed to rarely and seldome now if you meane it in the first sence that the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches that may be instanced in their case was extraordinary and though the Apostles suffered them to grow so ranke and numerous yet we may not doe so now I desire to know of you then what is become of your first generall rule the Primitive patternes of Churches erected by the Apostles and I desire to know what râ—…le you walke by and whether the first constituted Church of all were not likely to be the patterne for constituted Churches seeing Primum in unoquoque genere est regula mensura reliquorum But if you meane ordinarily in the second sence as that there is but one only instance the most if not all other Churches were otherwise that you see will not by what I have above written helpe you besides what ever you can probably alleadge that the Churches of these times should be conformed to such Churches which consisted of no greater number then to make one particular Congregation I will give more and better why the Churches of a Nation and kingdome should be conformed to that of Hierusalem As for those phrases of yours which you bring in by way of caution and clearing the way of your government within your selves that you claime not an Independent power to give no account or be subject to none others but onely a full and entire power compleate within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely Whilest in these first lines you denie Independent power in words yet in your latter words you grant it claiming a full and entire power compleate within your selves which is Independent power and is the full sence of that which hath been fasten'd on you by us and I will shew it more fully in the proper place when I come to the 23. page especially if you take upon you to enjoy it so long untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely I had thought it had been enough upon your being challenged to erre to have given an account but belike it must be erring grossely I suspect something lyes under this as under many other of your phrases whereby you evade and hide your selves stating points wrongfully Pray what doe you account erring grossely and whether doe you judge any thing erring grosly in your particular Churches but such kinds of sins in manners and such kind of opinions as are against the Churches knowne light and the common received practises and principles of Christianitie professed by the Churches themselves and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sinnes to be the ground of giving an account as they are not of Excommunication with you page 9. both being of equall latitude sins of particular persons to a Church and the sins of a particular Church to a Communitie of Churches and if that be your meaning you shall be Independent enough And then further I demand of you how you can use those phrases of not claiming a power to be subject to none others I confesse you may better use those words of giving account holding counselling and advising by sister-Churches but as for that phrase of subjecting to none others I understand it not what censure will your Churches subject unto from other Churches will they yeeld to the deposition of their Ministers Excommunication of their members c. or how can there be any subjection to other Churches in your principles the phrase being taken properly and usually when as all along you pleade against authoritative Presbyteriall power so oft exprest in page 15 16. and is the great point in controversie in this instance betwixt you and the Presbyterians How oft doe you denie the subjection of a particular Church to all other Churches and are against all subjecting to censures yea to be subjected as to counsell and advices from the other Churches As to that phrase your owne Elders whereof you had three at least in each Congregation whom you were subject to in which you seeme to hold out the government and power of the Church to lie in the Elders and not in the body of the Congregation I desire you to satisfie me in this point whether all of you hold the power and authoritie to be in the Elders or in the Church and whether by goe tell the Church is meant tell the Elders or the bodie of the Congregation and whether according to the principles of the Church-way in M. Robinsons workes and the bookes of New-England and M. Bridges owne letter unlesse some of you have lately seene another light you might have truly written three Elders at least in every Congregation to whom the Congregations were subject or else three Elders who were subject to their owne Congregations and this shall suffice for answer to the first head of the five concerning the third Instance To the second head under this third instance what you are not satisfied in nor cannot allow 1. About particular visible Churches That you could not imagine in every City where the Apostles came the number of the converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations 2. About the government of it that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authoritie over those Churches they teach not c. In both these you deale fallaciously and relate the controversie to your advantage and our disadvantage For the first whereas had you dealt ingenuously your words should have been these for that in any Citie where the Apostles came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations you
are so many as they cannot meet in one place but have more meeting places yet in imitation of the Scriptures giving that ground to some who have askt them a reason they make City Churches but one and the Ministers are Ministers in common of them all preaching in their courses in the severall meeting places and governed in common and this they doe to keep nearest to Apostolicall practise whereas now in the Countrey where villages are and the meetings are scattered they doe not all preach to all And to adde this further to shew your unsafe way of practising in the way of your particular Congregations over the reformed Churches and our Churches in England your Congregations as in London where the meeting place is and the Ministers reside is made up of members as of some living in London so of some in Surrey Middlesex Hartfordsheire Essex where they have fixum domicilium being twenty miles asunder and many members meeting but sometimes in a Moneth where neither Ministers can oversee them nor members watch over one another not knowing what the conversation of each other is which yet are brought as the maine grounds for your Church-fellowship which non-residencie of the members from one another and of the officers from so many of the members whether it overthrow not and be not point blank against many of your principles of the Church-way I leave to your selves to judge besides that it is without any Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles the Churches being still stiled according to the places where they lived and met as in Rom. 1. 7. To all that be in Rome beloved of God called to be Saints And so in the Epistles to the Corinthians To the Church of God which is at Corinth And I desire you to give me any Primitive patterne of any who belonged to the Church of Rome Corinth Ierusalem that is were standing members of those Churches who lived and inhabited ten miles twenty five miles c. round about those Cities so that we find here in this third instance namely in the government and discipline of the Churches as well as in the first instance in the qualification of your members that the additament is on your sides and not on the reformed Churches To the third head namely the reasons couched and hinted for your own practise and against the practise and way of the reformed Churches to the first reason I answer as the relating of the state of the questions was not proper so this argument hinted here is not properly expressed for their might be such a Presbyteriall Church and government as is maintained against you namely but two or three distinct meeting places and yet not Churches rising to such a numerous multiplication nor Apostles staying to the setting up of Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication But pray what doe you meane by those expressions We did not imagine but might you not or could you not have imagined it though you did not nor would not and what by this that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to make such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination Doe you carry the words in reference only to that numerous multiplication or simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay so long in any City as to set up any Churches at all Now if you will have your words interpreted in the first sense then judge how improper the speech and narration of your mind is for then it should have gone thus that the Apostles should stay the setting up of so many Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication for the denying the setting up of any Churches and at all agree not with the following words untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication the former being a diminitive nay a negative and cannot agree to such an augmentative as the latter besides your first words carried in reference to the following have no strength to proove what you bring them for namely what you allowed and practised or what you disallowed for though the Apostles should not stay so long as the setting up so many Churches as might arise to such a numerous multiplication of severall and sundry Congregations yet there might be such a Presbyteriall classicall Church a Church consisting of more then could meet in one place which is the controversie between us But if you understand your words simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay the setting up of any Churches at all I desire you to remember your own principles and expressions in many books and discourses of your way that the Apostles were the founders of the first Churches as at Corinth Rome and for Ierusalem especially which is the particular Church we most stand upon the Apostles staid long enough there to set up not onely any Churches at all but many to make such a Presbyteriall combination as is stood for as will appeare both by Acts 8. Acts 15. Acts 21. and it is the judgement of Mr Robinson that Ierusalem was never without some of the Apostles there which the two first chapters of the Galathians give a strong ground for besides the many Presbyters that belonged thereunto And so for the Church of Ephesus Paul stayed at one time in those parts three yeares together long enough to make so many Churches as might make a Presbyteriall combination which that of the Acts chap. 20. vers 17 18 25 28 29 31. doe give hints enough for if the nature of an answer to a Narration would permit to draw them out at length To the second reason hinted that those precepts Obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure meant of the Pastours and teachers set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in those commands Wives obey your own husbands c. I answer that in Scripture a particular Church consisting of more Congregations then one and the Ministers and Elders feeding them and governing them in common as at Ierusalem and as it is in the Low Countries in Cities there as at Amsterdam c. all the Ministers and Elders are their own Ministers and Elders as the husbands are the owne of their wives and those Scriptures are to be understood of all their Pastors and Ministers and not of some only or in respect of some and not of the rest and it is as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in that command Wives obey your owne husbands that obey your Elders c. be meant not of some but of them all 2. In Churches by their combination consisting of many Congregations where ordinarily some Pastors and teachers feed some Congregations and not the rest Ministers being fixed some to that Congregation and others to other Congregations yet there being a government in common by all the Presbyters of
as they see just ground the controversie were at an end 4. The Corporations that is those in place and power if they proceed unjustly are accountable to the State they live in that is to a higher civill power and adjudged themselves in cases of wrong condemning the innocent suffering delinquents to escape but your Corporations of particular Congregations even in case of reall Administration are against all judging and all Ecclesiasticall Authoritative power out of your own Congregations To the fifth Reason hinted by you to strengthen your practise that it was safe and allowed and the Reformed Churches more questionable namely appealing to them who have read books whether much hath been written with strength setly and directly to prove that government but rather to overthrow Episcopall and to maintaine those severall Officers in Churches which Christ hath instituted and therefore you inferre you might have more ground to question this government of combined classicall Presbyteriall government I answer the ground of that is fully laid down in the Reformation of the Church of Scotland page 17 and 18. with an account of what hath been written and done by the reformed Churches in France for the Presbyteriall way and against the popular Independent way which is more then you once in this Reason hinted but suppose that in former writings of Calvin Beza Zanchius Peter Martyr Danaeus Iunius Zeppâ—…rus Gersom Bucerus Dr Reynolds Parker there hath not been much setly and directly insisted on and with strength to prove the government of Synods and Classes though in some of these more especially as against the Church of Rome and Episcopall government much strength is brought for the government by Synods and Classes yet that which those Divines of Scotland Holland England have written of late against the Independent congregationall government might have been enough to have satisfied you and that 's not materiall that no more have written seeing out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established and if these books had not strength to satisfie you why have not you all this while answered them but I must mind you of forgetting one of your own Divines for besides the learned Licensers booke against Independencie another booke was written cald Reasons against the Independent government of particular Congregations and the Toleration of them in this Kingdome which booke in your seeming to take no notice of I beleeve you remember above the rest and in the 25 page of your Apologie it appeares you remember it but the Authour of it belike is none of your Divines And in the close now of this answer to your Reasons hinted about the government and discipline of the Church why you in your Congregationall way should be in the truth but the Presbyteriall government was a question to you and judged an additament because the Presbyterians allowed you what you practised and granted what you held but themselves held and practised over and above I answer this is no Argument at all for by the same reason the Samaritans should have worshipped God truly but the Iewes falsely and the Samaritans might have said to the Iewes as you doe to the Presbyterianns the five books of Moses which we owne to be sure they are from God you acknowledge them but for the books of the Prophets that 's a question which rests upon you that allow what we hold to make evident and demonstrate and so the Iews may now by the same reason speake against the Christians and say we are in the safer way to be sure we practise safely for you Christians confesse what we hold namely Moses and the Prophets to be the Scriptures but for the new Testament that is to us a question and an additament which therefore rests upon you Christians to make good who beleeve and practise over and above us And whereas the common prejudice and exception laid into all mens thoughts against us and our opinions is that in such a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so grossâ—… no reliefe for wrongfull sentences or persons injured thereby no roome for complaints no powerfull or effectuall meanes to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into heresie schisme c. but every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their own eyes we have through the good providence of God upon us from the avowed declarations of our judgements among our Churches mutually during our exile and that also confirmed by the most solemne instance of our practise wherewith to vindicate our selves and way in this particular which upon no other occasion we should ever have made thus publike God so ordered it that a scandall and offence fell out between those very Churches whilst living in this banishment whereof we our selves that write these things were then the Ministers one of our Churches having unhappily deposed one of their Ministers the other judged it not only as too sudden an act having proceeded in a matter of so great moment without â—…nsulting their sister Churches as was publikely professed we should have done in such cases of concernment but also in the proceedings thereof as too severe and not managed according to the rules laid downe in the word In this case our Churches did mutually and universally acknowledge and submit to this as a sacred and undoubted principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches that as by vertue of that Apostolicall command Churches as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Iew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live amongst So that in all cases of such offence or difference by the obligation of the Common Law of communion of Churches and for the vindication of the glory of Christ which in common they holdforth the Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence or complaint of the person wronged to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches offended thereat of what ever hath given the offence And further that by vertue of the same and like law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the impenitencie of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of with-drawing and renouncing all Christian communion with them untill they doe repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like And what further authority or proceedings purely Ecclesiasticall of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending either the Scriptures doe holdforth or can rationally be put in execution without the Magistrates interposing a power of another nature unto which we upon his particular cognisance and examination of such causes professe ever to submit and also to
be most willing to have recourse unto for our parts we saw not then nor doe yet see And likewise we did then suppose and doe yet that this principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto other Churches offended together with this other that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are finally offended to pronounce such a sentence of non-communion and withdrawing from them whilest impenitent ac unworthy to hold forth the Name of Christ these principles being received and generally acknowledged by the Churches of Christ to be a mutuall duty as strictly enjoyned them by Christ as any other that these would be as effectuall meanes through the blessing of Christ to awe and preserve Churches and their Elders in their duties as that other of claime to an authoritative power Ecclesiasticall to excommunicate other Churches or their Elders offending For if the one be compared with the other in a meere Ecclesiasticall notion that of Excommunication pretended hath but this more in it That it is a delivering of whole Churches and their Elders offending unto Satan for which we know no warrant in the Scriptures that Churches should have such a power over other Churches And then as for the binding obligation both of the one way and the other it can be supposed to lye but in these two things First In a warrant and injunction given by Christ to his Churches to put either the one or the other into execution And secondly That mens consciences be accordingly taken therewith so as to subject themselves whether unto the one way or the other For suppose that other principle of an authoritative power in the greater part of Churches combined to excommunicate other Churches c. to be the ordinance of God yet unlesse it doe take hold of mens consciences and be received amongst all Churches the offending Churches will steight all such excommunications as much as they may be supposed to doe our way of protestation and sentence of non-communion On the other side let this way of ours be but as strongly entertained as that which is the way and command of Christ and upon all occasions be heedfully put in execution it will awe mens consciences as much and produce the same effects And if the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld doe but assist and back the sentence of other Churches denouncing this non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet and as they would the sentence of Churches excommunicating others Churches in such cases vpon their owne particular iudgement of the cause then without all controversie this our way of Church proceeding will bee every way as effectuall as their other can be supposed to be and we are sure more brotherly and morâ—… suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with But without the Magistrates interposing their authority their way of proceeding will be as ineffectuall as ours and more liable to contempt by how much it is pretended to be more authoritative and to inflict a more dreadfull punishment which carnall spirits are seldome sensible of This for our judgements And for a reall evidence and demonstration both that this was then our judgements as likewise for an instance of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such cases our own practise and the blessing of God thereon may plead and testifie for us to all the world The manage of this transaction in briefe was this That Church which with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence requiring of the Church supposed to be offending in the Name and for the vindication of the honour of Christ and the relieving the party wronged to yeeld a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation or any other whomsoever offended of what they could give in charge against their proceedings in that deposition of their Minister and to subject themselves to an open triall and review of all those forepassed carriages that concerned that particular which they most chearfully and readily according to the forementioned principles submitted unto in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authority either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced them thereunto And accordingly the Ministers of the Church offended with other two Gentlemen of much worth wisedome and piety members thereof were sent as messengers from that Church and at the introduction and intrance into that solemne assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an impression upon our hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever any we have been present at it was openly and publikely prosessed in a speech that was the preface to that discussion to this effect that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable unto that of Christianity that a single and particular society of men professing the Name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and society within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrates above them or neighbour Churches about them So farre were our judgements from that independent liberty that is imputed to us then when we had least dependency on this Kingdom or so much as hopes ever to abide therein in peace And for the issue and successe of this agitation after there had been for many dayes as judiciary and full a charge tryall and deposition of witnesses openly afore all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where authority enjoynes it that Church which had offended did as publikely acknowledge their sinfull aberration in it restored their Minister to his place againe and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves afore God and men for their sinfull carriage in it and the party also which had been deposed did acknowledge to that Church wherein he had likewise sinned In this part of your Apologie are contained the fourth and fifth of those five forementioned heads unto which I referred all I should answer to what you say upon your third and last instance about the government and discipline in the Churches The scope of which fourth head is to answer and take off a common objection brought against your way the strength of which answer is made up of those parts and stands in these particulars First In laying downe your own principles which you hold in such a case Secondly Your practise according to those principles occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches which story you briefly relate Thirdly The successe and effectualnesse of your practise according to your principles illustrated by an instance Now for that common
exception laid into all mens thoughts against your Congregationall way it 's both a just and strong Argument against it and that which many of your way when it hath been objected to them have confessed there is no remedy nor help in such cases but advice and counsell all must be left to Christ Christ will take care of his own way they had not found out this allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages which you have here propounded but I shall labour to make evident that all you bring by way of answer in declaration of your judgements and practise doth not satisfie this objection And first for your judgements in the principles you hold and lay downe I shall endeavour to prove that you have no Scripture grounds nor Primitive patterns for such principles and such a way in such cases Secondly Besides that these principles have no footing in Scripture and so they are no allowed remedy for miscarriages c. are not nor will not be a sufficient remedy for miscarriages nor reliefe for wrongfull sentences nor powerfull effectuall meanes to reduce a Church c. For the first I shall take it for granted you being wise men that in such a point as this being the maine point of difference betwen you and the Presbterians and at such a time as this you would bring the strongest Scriptures and grounds you had for your sacred principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches namely of submission of Churchrs and for that other principle of pronouncing that heavy sentence of non-communion against a Church or Churches and if I can shew the invalidity and weaknesse of these brought by you a man may conclude ther 's no feare of what 's behind Now a man would wonder that wise men as you are should except against a government received so generally amongst the reformed Churchâ—…s and blessed so from Heaven in the effectualnesse of it for the space of so many yeares as a sufficient remedy not only to reduce men from heresies and schisme but to prevent Churches from falling into heresie schisme c. which is more and goe set up a new way so different and so distastfull to the reformed Churches and all upon pretences of no sound proofe in Scripture for such a government because there is not an Apostolicall direction either in example or precept for it and in the meane time to contend for such a government wherein yourselves cannot deny but hath fallen out strange miscarriages and you tell us an unhappy story for proofe and yet the way and course you have substituted for remedy hath neither example nor precept in the word of God to practise any title of all that you relate to us and besides that the course prescribed by you is not commanded in the word it is no whit so rationall nor conducible to the ends you appoint it for as we will shew presently Now for the Scriptures brought by you the first is 1 Cor. 10. 32. Give none offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Gentiles nor to the Church of God where first the Reader may observe you alter the text putting Churches of God instead of Church of God and then you adde they live amongst The alteration I suppose you make upon this ground for feare this text in the reading of it should hint that truth how the visible Church in Scripture is taken for more then one particular Congregation the addition they live amongst to make it a seeming ground for Churches in a vicinitie whereas the Apostle speakes of the Church of God generally all the Churches whether we live amongst them or farre from them and the scope of the Apostle in this place is upon the occasion of that particular offence which might arise to some Corinthians from eating meat sacrificed to Idols having been told that this is sacrificed to Idols to lay down a generall rule to all Christians against giving offence to any whether Jewes Gentiles or Christians under which three ranks all men then in those times were comprehended Now pray tell me how will you make this text to prove that Churches offending and distering among themselves must submit themselves to the most full and open triall and examination of other neighbour Churches offended and how will you from this place draw ouâ—… a power for neighbour Churches to send unto and require this of the Churches who have offended them This Scripture if all Interpreters understand it that I have consulted with layes downe a rule that every particular Christian and so all Christians must so walke as to become all things to all men to please all men in all things lawfull as the 33 verse interprets it and to give none offence But where doth this Scripture speake and how doth it affirme that if either Churches or particular Christians doe practise things that offend other Churches they who are offended have power and authority to send to them and to call them to the most full and open triall and examination and that such who are challenged to offend must submit to such a judiciall and open triall before all commers In this text there is no more said of the Church of God then of the Jews and Gentiles who must not be offended neither and will you allow Jewes and Gentiles offended by things done in your Churches to call your Churches to an account and you must submit This text reaches to Churches that live in other Countries and unto particular Christians though they be not members of any such instituted Church as you speake of so that by vertue of this text we ought to give them no offence but will you grant that Churches of other Countries and Kingdomes may call Churches in another Kingdome to an open triall and examination and send their messengers to question them and thereupon pronounce sentence of renouncing all Christian communion with them or that every particular man offended may call Churches to an account and they are bound to submit to hearing and tryall I will give you one instance I am much offended at the great rent and difference that was betwixt Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson and at Mr Simpsons setting up a new Church and at all that great bitternesse betwixt those Churches and I am much offended at the Church of Arnheim for letting passe that schisme and all those differences never questioning it especially questioning Mr Bridges Church Now have I a power by vertue of this precept to call both you and your Churches to an account and to require of you a most full and open tryall before all commers and are you bound to submit to it answer me this question in your Reply and you shall see what I will say to you in my Rejoinder For that other Scripture 1 Tim. 5. 22. Neither be partakers of othâ—… mens sinnes that is spoken to Timothy in regard of his authoritative power in the Church of God as the scope of the chapter and the immediate precedent words shew
which is not your case denying authoritative power but if you say this text is meant secondarily of all Churches and Christians though they have not authoritative power I grant it but then it is in wayes suitable which the word of God gives warrant and allowance for as in reproving mourning for the sin c. which must be shewne in some other Scriptures For else the Presbyterians may pretend by vertue of this text that they ought not to be partaker of other mens sins that they may censure depose excommunicate members of other Churches who are suffered to goe on in sin better then you can draw from this text that you may call not only particular members but whole Churches to an account examine them and pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion against them But in a word bretheren let me tell you if such generall texts as these that may be applied to any course and way conceived by men in their own braines to hinder sin and reduce from offences will serve turne for Church government and for remedies to reduce Churches then we can give you besides your own two texts quoted here for your principle of submission of Churches and non-communion many other such and more probable too for the authoritative power of Presbyteries and Sinods as that in 1 Cor. 14. 22. And the spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets but we are not so hard put to it there being particular instances and examples if the nature of an Answer to such a Narration would permit me to insist at large that proove the points in difference namely of acts of power exercised by Churches in common as in elections determinations and impositions upon differences and controversies as Acts 15. 2. 4 6 7 13 22 23 24 28 29. Acts 16. 4 5. 2 Corinih 8. 18 19. But let the indifferent reader judge by this which hath been said whether the reformed Churches or the Independent practise most safely there being a ground as your selves confesse for the sentence of excommunication such a sentence you acknowledge in particular Churches and practise it and such a sentence hath been decreed and past upon members of Churches by those who were not members of those Churches as the Scriptures are cleare for it 1 Tim. 1. 19 20. But on the other hand it is not granted that the Scriptures give any ground of pronouncing the sentence of non-communion against whole Churches or doe allow any such practise of declarations and protestations unto all Churches against whole Churches this I utterly deny and your Scriptures prove them not and I wonder how you dare call it the command of Christ and the way of Christ as you doe in page 18 19. And brethren besides that the Scriptures give neither precept nor example for your way of non-communion consider whether the Scriptures give not grounds rather to the contrary namely against a particular Churches withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion with whole Churches upon an errour and miscarriage for let me aske you may not such a Church or Churches be true Churches for all this continue in their offices upon mistaken partiality and notwithstanding all the light a particular Church can give them be unsatisfied now if a particular man may not separate nor withdraw Christian communion from a true Church though upon his counsell and advise she redresse not but 't is a schisme then for one Church upon counsell and advice given to more Churches though not taken to separate formally from many Churches by pronouncing that heavy sentence of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion cannot be justified Paul did not renounce nor cast-off Churches for many things amisse though upon his counsell they were not mended as appeares in the Church of Corinth that had been twice admonished 2 Cor. 13. 1 2. and â—…t repented not and now Paul doth it the third time and yet refusing Pauls counsell and power being so infallible and authoritative deserved more the sentence of non-communion then the often rejecting the counsell and power of any particular Church can doe But I will answer you in your own language that your sacred and undoubted principles and supreame laws of submission of Churches and of the power of Churches offended to pronounce the heavy sentence of non-communion against the Churches offending and of Declarations and Protestations to all other Churches of Christ that they might doe the like with your own practise exprest in the 20 and 21. page are to me Apocriphâ—… and judge it to be an additament which therefore rests on you who allow the sentence of excommunication to make evident and demonstrate that of non-communion Protestations Declarations c. And thus it often falls out whilst men will oppose that which hath long been received in the Church of God upon pretence of the want of Scripture grounds and bring in new wayes they practise novelties upon lesse ground and foundation from Scriptures then they rejected the old as is to be seen in this instance 2. As these principles of yourâ—… have no footing in Scripture so it will appeare they are no sufficient remedies for miscarriages and evills which fall out in particular Churches by reason of their compleate and entire power within themselves first because there are more acts of power then your principle of submission of Churches and the instances you give upon it reach unto so that granting all you say of it yet it would but reach to that particular case or some such like cases but would be no way sufficient either for preventing or remedying other evills and mischiefs which dâ—…e and would arise upon a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe So that here lies the fallacy in the question between you and the reformed Churches in point of government you speake to some points of government but not to all and instead of laying down principles that should answer all cases they only serve but to some and so your principles that should be simpliciter are only secundum quid For in the government of the Church there are many other acts of power as of making and ordaining Ministers of receiving in Members of agreeing upon a government doctrine and worship c. which this full compleat entire power of particular Congregations takes upon them to doe of which many great mischiefes doe arise and are like errours in the first concoction which your principle of submission of Churches reacheth not unto nor doth not help But secondly besides this the principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto the other Churches offended with that practise of Churches finally offended to denounce such a senâ—…ence of Non-communion doth not answer the case alleadged in heresies schisme or persons injured nor is not a sufficient remedie like that of combination of Elders and for the making good of that I shall examine the way and course prescribed by you in your principles here laid downe of Submission Non-communion Declarations and Protestations and
godly Minister of the City conferring with one of your precious Ministers about these points before he went into Holland and telling him This is Brownisme and Browne held thus what are you a Brownist Your companion and fellow-labourer answered him thus The way was of God but the man was nought namely Browne As for those words whereby you would evade the naine of Brownisme That upon the very first declaring your judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged you differ much from them 'T is not your saying so will cleare you unlesse you had named what that chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-discipline is and how and in what words you declared your judgements and to whom for you might so expresse your selves as you doe in this Apologie too often whereby you might deceive the most of them to whom you declared your judgements yea many able Ministers and Scholars who are not versed in your distinctions and reservations and yet for all the declaring of your judgements differ very little from the Brownists except in different phrases and in not deducing such consequences Let me intreate you therefore to lie no longer hid under such generals but in your Reply declare particularly what you hold the chiefe point of all Church-discipline and wherein in that you differ from them But may I guesse at the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-government and discipline wherein you declared your judgements by which you would distinguish your selves from the Brownists Is it not that you give the power and authoritie to the officers and not to the people onely I have heard that of late you have declared your selves thus and the late Epistle before M. Cottons booke written by two of you implies so much But be it so though I can out of a letter of M. Bridges and from notes and manuscripts show that seven yeares agoe the expressions of some of you were otherwise yet this will not free yoâ—… for M. Iohnson fell to this and yet was guiltie of Brownisme for all that But in this also your principles and your practises are incoherent and however in fine words and flattering similitudes you dilate upon it in your Epistle to M. Cottons late booke yet it comes much to one the substance of which Epistle I will answer in my Rejoynder to your Reply or in some thing by it selfe and will wipe off the paint and guilt and then the naked counter and rotten post will appeare As for your publick profession that you beleeve the truth to lie and consist in a middle way betwixt Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I answer then Actum est de Presbyterio de Synodo You have determined the cause alreadie the Assembly may rise when they please and need sit no longer for the truth lies and consists in Independencie but I suppose though heretofore and when you wrote this Apologie you did so publickly prefesso and beleeve the truth to lie in your way the middle way as you terme it yet by what hath past since your height and courage is somewhat abated and you are not now so peremptory and I find now you write in another stile which becomes you much better We humbly suppose we humbly conceive again in all humilitie But if you be high still I must tell you your confidence hath deceived you and your middle way as you fancie it though I must still charge upon you refined Brownisme will prove like other pretended truthes lying in middle wayes just as the Catholicke and Arminian moderatours Cassander the booke called Interim and that booke of late times cal'd media via betweene the Papists and Protestants and betweene the Calvinists and Arminians And as for the way of your expression of Presbyteriall government I cannot but except at it observing that all along obliquely and as farre as you may you still asperse that You can here expresse Brownisme simply without any additions to it but you cannot passe by Presbyteriall government without a lash at it which is the contention of these times as if you would insinuate the blame of all the contentions and stirre of these times to be Presbyteriall Government whereas the truth is the contention of these times is Episcopall and your Independent Government which have caused and doe continue all the contention and stirres in Church and Common-wealth they mutually strengthning each other against Presbyteriall government and â—…o 't is still to be observed that all along in this Apologie where you speake of Presbyteriall Government you state the questions about that in the highest and utmost latitude but of your owne Church and way in the lowest yea lower then you hold as for instance in 11 12. pag. about the qualification of Church-members to deceive the Reader with your pretended moderation and the more to possesse the Reader against the jus divinum of the Presbyteriall way as for example in this place Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now the substance and summe of Presbyteriall governement may be according to Apostolicall Primitive patternes and yet all the subordinations and proceedings of it as it is practised in the Church of Scotland fitted to that Nation and Kingdome may have no Scripture examples Presbyteriall government in some Reformed Churches as at Geneva hath not all the subordinations and proceedings as Scotland being no Kingdome nor Nation and Presbyteriall government in England might have one subordination more then Scotland and some different proceedings in the manner and forme of carrying matters according to particular circumstances and occasions of time and place The Ministers of the Church of Scotland who hold their Church Government to be laid downe in the word of God for the substance and essentials of it doe not as I suppose hold that all the subordinations and proceedings as practised in their kingdome have a particular rule either of precept or example I doubt not but they well understand no whole Nation was converted to the faith in the time that the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles were written nor the supreame Magistrate in any Kingdome or Nation and therefore in no one Church or Nation where Christians were converted and Churches planted there could not be that formall combination into Classes setled Synods or generall Assemblies neither could the supreame Magistrate or a Commissioner for him be a prime member in their chiefe Assemblies and so I might instance in other particulars but the Church of Scotland find Presbyteriall Government in subordinations and appeales that is Government exercised in Churches and Assemblies which consisted of more members then could meet in one place and they find Assemblies where upon cases of difference there were more members and officers then of one Church as the Acts of the Apostles showes fully
its own evidence with it For answer I propund to the Reader as followes this question of your words In the meane time from this briefe generall partiall conceal'd untrue historicall relation of your practises there can be little true estimate taken of your opinions in difference which being set out by practises but in part and not the whole in the bright side and not the blacke is the least reall without any evidence in it but the most collusive way especially with the people and with such who have not studied the controversies nor know not the points in difference But I will shew unto you a more reall way if you will promise to answer positively and plainely to such questions and positions as I shall draw up for you concerning your Church-way then there may be an estimate of the opinions in difference and for requitall of this I will promise you to answer clearely and fully to any questions both of doctrine discipline and worship that you can put unto me As for those words All which we have taken the boldnesse together with our selves humbly to lay at the feet of your wisedome and piety c. I answer it is a great boldnesse indeed to present such an Apologie to both Houses the supreme Iudicatory of this Kingdome which is and hath been in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before wherein besides the questions and controversies so mistated and so many doubtfull dark passages there are many untrue relations and I wonder how you durst presume to lay so much folly and indiscretion with untruth at the feet of so much wisedome and piety had your Apologie been only adpopulum who are weake and apt to be deceived it had been more excusable but to appeale by such an Apologie to both Houses of Parliament is very strange but we may see by this how farre applause and favour with the people and confidence of successe will carry men You have need indeed to beseech the Parliament to looke upon you under no other notion or character then as those who if you cannot assume to have been no way furtherers of the Reformation yet who have been no way hinderers thereof or disturbers of the publike peace I think your consciences should tell you the Parliament hath reason to looke upon you under other notions and characters then you represent your selves by which I judge is the ground of your deprecating the Houses and indeed I wonder how you can make such a Petition to both Houses for it is evident you have been no furtherers of that Reformation which the Parliament or ever any wise State did in any age intend but you may assume to have been furtherers of a Reformation for Independent government and separation which the Parliament never intended But whether you have been no way hinderers of the Reformation intended nor disturbers of the publike peace let the things alledged in this answer speake witnesse gathering of Churches witnesse the tumults that have been in streets upon some of your private meetings witnesse the disturbance of the publike peace in some Churches upon your preaching and particularly if the delaying the work of Reformation and setling Church government be some way an hinderance to it and an occasion of disturbing the publike peace then you five have not been the least nor last in some way hindering Reformation and disturbing the publike peace And bretheren what is the great thing that letteth and will let but you five I am confident had it not been for you five and a few more the Reformation intended and the publike peace of the Church had been in a farre fairer way then now it is Bretheren there are many complaints and that by your deare friends of retarding the work of Reformation by your meanes you are the Remora to the Ship under sailes you are the spokes in the wheeles of the Chariot of Reformation Parliament complaines Assembly City Countrey all complaine of the worke retarded and all is resolved into you five principally I could tell you many particular passages but you know what I meane In a word all the Prelates and the Papists cannot nor doe not so much hinder the work of Reformation as you five members of the Assembly and the Lord in merey worke so that by occasion of you and by meanes of your principles and many persons of your Church-way there doe not yet rise up another great mountaine before Zerubbabel to hinder the laying the head stone of that building the foundation whereof is layed As for your differing so little in your judgements about the present worke of this agâ—… Reformation of worship and discipline from the reformed Churches and your bretheren c. I answer if so be that you differ so little from the reformed Churches and your bretheren yea farre lesse then they doe from what themselves were three yeares past why doe you not then incorporate with us why will you or how can you answer it to God for that to make a rent and to desire to have Churches of your own way and to be an occasion of so much evill as that would prove to this Church the smaller the difference is the greater is the schisme and separation for the lesse the cause of a separation is the greater the fault is in those that make it Are we come so farre to you so many miles as you imply in those words from what themselves were three yeares past and will not you come a step or two to us for union and peace and to heale that great schisme with many other inconveniences We have and are comming blessed be God a great way to Church reformation and worship but the points that you would have us come to you in besides that they are Apocripha not to be found in Scripture we cannot being a Nation and Kingdome come to you in your way your Independent government and particular gathered Churches cannot stand with a Nationall Reformation as some of your way have confessed and therefore would have but a toleration for themselves but you may come to our Reformation easily though a Nation cannot be contained in a few yet a few may well in a Nation besides if you by your confessions differ farre lesse from us then what we did from our selves three yeares past why will you for all that great difference in us then and now and what need have you to goe make new separated Churches from whom you farre lesse differ but what ever you say here of your small difference between you and the reformed Churches and us the more to work with the Parliament for a toleration in some lesser differences yet the differences are held by you to be greater and more materiall or else you would close with us so reforming and among other particulars you differ more from your brethren then your brethren from themselves three yeares past your brethren being of one Church both then and now but you and
nostris qui norant linguam Eelgicam frequentant SacraÌ„ coenam earum membris siqua forte nostro coetui intersint nobis cognita participamus Robin Apolog. Apolog. Letter to Mr King Mr Tost c. Apolog. Tertul. de Resur carnâ—… 〈◊〉 3. a Chamier Panstrat Cathol lib. 8. de Canone cap. 3. b Whitak de Script perfect quae 6. cap. 14. In soro non ex jure humano sed ex lege Mosis pronunciandum esse contendit Melch Adam vit Carolost Schlusselburg de Secta Schuvenckâ—…ld Cameron Sâ—… ver Iudge in controvers c. 11. Chamier Panstrat Cathol de Canone l. 8. c. 1. de persectione Scripturae Statâ—… controversiae Sect. 16. Cham. de Canone l. 8. c. 2. Sect. 20. Whitak de Script Perfect contra Hum. Tradit quae 6. c. 10. Whitak de Script perfect quaest 6. c. 6. Status quaestionis proponitur 6 Article of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures for salvation Vide 39 Articles of Relig. of Ch. of Engl. Serm. at publike Fast Novemb 29 1643. pag. 26. a Danaei Comment in 1 Tim. 5. v. 13. v. 17. Cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quadam homines omnia quae Apostolorum temporibus observata suerant sibi putarent imitanda neque locorum neque temporum neque rerum dissâ—…nilium rationem baberent eâ—…am ipsi suas Dioconissas retinere praecâ—…è voluerunt Sed cum posterioribus temporibus c. Et certe â—…is impudentes sunt Catabaptistae qui Pauli facti exempli praetexâ—… omnes verbi Dei ministros ad manualia oâ—…era cogendos esse contendunt ut victum comparent b Apostolici inter Anabaptist as cognominati sunt quia Apostolos aemulari in omnibus decreverunt Hi nudam Scripturae literam tenere se jactabant Absque baâ—…ulo calceis pera pecunia hinc inde vigabantur juxta Christi verba Ascendeâ—…ant in tecta domorum ex quibus habebant conciones quia Christus dixisset quae in aurem accepist is annunciate in tâ—…ctis Pedes sibi invicem lavabant cum puer is repâ—…erascebant hoc est pueriliter se gerebant uxores liberos domuâ—… opificia deserebant quia Christus dixisset nisi quis reliquerit doâ—…um uxorem c. propter me non potest esse meus discipulus Schluâ—…leb de Secta Anabaptist Mr Tho Goodwins answer to a letter with a Quâ—…re concerning the Church-covenant Confident we are is considence it selfe can make us that there is no commandement given to the Churches for exacting any such covenant of those that are to be admitted into Church-fellowship with them Quere concerning the Church-covenant Apolog. Apolog. 〈◊〉 I. G. Letter to T. G. Apolog. Whitaker dâ—… Eccles. Apolog. Manuscr Arg. of M. Nye against set-formes of prayer prescribed a M. Williams answer to Mr Cottons letter Queries proposed upon occasion of an Apologeticall Nâ—…ration Robinsoni Apolog cap. 12. de Eccles. Anglic. Apolog. Reform of Ch. government in Scotland cleared pag. 18. Dissert de Gub. Ecclesiae pag. 11. Robins Apol. cap. 1. de Eccles amplitudinâ—… a Polit. Ecclesiast l. 3. c. 〈◊〉 c. â—…2 b Polit. Eccles. l. 〈◊〉 c. 1. 〈◊〉 Balls friendly tryall of separation * Gersom Bucerus Dissert de Gub. Eccles. p. 11. Nos particularem Eccle siam intelligimus quemlibet credentium câ—…tum in unam vocationem divinam Evangelij praedicatioâ—…e sacrarumque institutionum observatione adunatum ac uni Presbyterio subjunctum sacros vero conventus uno out pluribus locis agitâ—…ntem Nam Paraeciarum in quibus convenitur numerus accidentaria res est nihil ad Ecclesiae particularis essentiam pertinens M. Bridges letter to M. Toâ—… M. Smith M. Henry King c. The Keyes were given to the whole Church unles we say they were given to Peter only and his successours search the Scriptures and see if you can find any place where any body or particular Church is subiect to one man or officer Reform of Ch. government cleared p. 25. a Robins Justif. of separat b Mr Burroughs on Hosea seventh Lecture p. 174. If we consider the difference between Ecclesiasticall power and civill power we shall see it cleare that there cannot be a ministeâ—…ll head of the Church c Ames Med. Theol. Iohn 4 10 22. Apolog. * Robiâ—…s Justif. of separat Robiâ—…s Catech. A representative Church in a case of faith and conscience without the consent of the represented in the particular decree establisheth the popish doctrine of implicite faith a Voetius select Disput. de quaestione peâ—…es quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica Thes 1. Thes. 4 Thes. 5. Ut auteÌ„ n ovuâ—… hic agendi modus colorem aliquem haberet tanto facilius multâ—…rum politicorum savor aut saltem Tolerantia Remonstranticis noviâ—…atibus conciaretur edituâ—… est ab Iohanne Vttenbogardo Ecclesialiste tunc Hagâ—… cometano tractatus de jure supremi Magistratus in Ecclesiasticis Eâ—…ita fuerunt Grotij piet as ordinum Episcopij disputatio de jure magistratus circa sacra Barlei declamatio seu Philippica quaedam in ministros qui orthodoxam receptam religionem tuebantur c. Praeter quae vulgares vernaculi libelli quorum numerus innumerus consiones Remonstrantium nihil aliud quam authoritatem potestatem magistratuum perstrepebant nescio qua invidia orthodoxos pastores â—…orumque legitimos coâ—…ventus actiones Ecclesiasticas gravabant Et hac quidem inprimis in dictis duabus provincijâ—… nam in Geldria aliter canebant aut Mussitabant quod Ill. Curja conatibus ipsorum minimè faveret Idem fere accidebat in Frisia Amstelredami atque alibi ubi magistratus omnia contra Presbyteria pastores non statuebat ex 〈◊〉 aut in favorem Remonstrantium Post habitam synodum Dordracenam libelli ipsorum vernaculi longè alio stilo conscripti sunt quin in ipsa Apologia quam tamen magistratibus probari volebant cap. 25. potestatem hanc non parum limitant ac contrahunt quam tamen tam liberaliter ante hac ad mensâ—… erant b Vedelius de Episcop Constant. magni pag. 3 4 5 6. Arminiani è contrario in excessu peccant Etenim ante Synodum Dordracenam contendebant sub magistratu orthodoxo Ecclesiam per se nullam babere potestatem spiritualem ministros Ecclesiae officio suo defungi nomine magistratus ita ut magistratus quia ipse per alia negotia concionari c. non possit per ministros doceat qui vices ipsius gerant in docendo quem admndum vicarius Trajani Imperatoris vices gerebat sui Imperatoris Et sic ministros non habere suam potesâ—…atem à Christo sed à Magistratu qui quidem solus eam potestatem immediatè à Christo acceperit Gubernationem Ecclesiae assignabant soli magistratui ab ea excludentes ministros nisi in quantum essent vicarij instrumenta seu servi magistratus Speciatim electionem ministrorum seu vocationem item dopositionem tribuebant soli magistraâ—… c.
HAving diligently perused this Antapologia I find it so full and just and necessary an examination and discovery of the Apologeticall Narration both in matters of fact and of opinion that because I dare not as too many have the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons I approve it to be imprinted and commend it Reader to thy most serious consideration Ia. Cranford ANTAPOLOGIA Or A Full Answer to the Apologeticall Narration OF Mr Goodwin Mr Nye Mr Sympson Mr Burroughs Mr Bridge Members of the Assembly of Divines Wherein is handled many of the Controversies of these Times viz. 1. Of a particular visible Church 2. Of Classes and Synods 3. Of the Scriptures how farre a Rule for Church Government 4. Of Formes of Prayer 5. Of the Qualifications of Church members 6. Of SubmissioÌ„ Non-CoÌ„munioÌ„ 7. Of Excommunication 8. Of the Power of the Civill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticals 9. Of Separation and Schisme 10. Of Tolerations and particularly of the Toleration of Independencie 11. Of Suspension from the Lords Supper 12. Of Ordination of Ministers by the people 13. Of Church Covenant 14. Of Non-residencie of Church-members Humbly also submitted to the Honourable Houses of Parliament By THOMAS EDWARDS Minister of the Gospel Ephes. 4. 14. That we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slâ—…ight of men and cunning craftinesse whereby they lie in wait to deceive Vers. 〈◊〉 But speaking the truth in love may grow up into him in all things which is the head even Christ. Matth. 24. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you Behold he is in the desart go not forth Behold he is in the secret chambers believe it not Augustinus Vincentio epist. 48. Non enim propter malos boni deserendi sed propter bonos mali tolerandi â—…ti sicut toleraverunt prophetae contra quos 〈◊〉 dicebant 〈◊〉 communionem sacramentorum illius populi relinquebant Bezae epist. prima D'Andreae Duditio lactabimusne libertatem conscientiis permittendam esse Minime ut haec quidem liberta intelligitur id est ut quo quisque modo volet Deum colat Est enim hoc mere diabolicum dogma Sinendum esse unumquemque ut si volet pereat Et illa est diabolica libertas quae Poloniam Transylvaniam hodiè tot pestibus implevit quas nullae alioqui sub sole regiones toleratent London Printed by G. M. for Ralph Smith at the Bible in Cornhill neer the Royall Exchange 1644. To the tender Consciensed scrupulous doubting Christian. DEare and beloved Christians for your salâ—…es in speciall who are apt to be troubled with many doubts and feares about the Constitution and Government of the visible Church and the way of Worship and Communion in it have I drawn up this present Answer as to undeceive you in the Apologists the Apologie and their Church-way so to satisfie you in your scruples and doubts about Presbyterie It was my love care and respect to tender consciences that more especially moved me at first now some seven yeares agoe to fall upon the more thorough studying and searching into the controversies of the Church c. And the grounds which now of late have afresh revived my thoughts and studies that way are 1. The recovering and reducing conscientious Christians who are not too far engaged 2. The setling some who are wavering and doubtfull 3. The keeping of others from falling Now the first borne of my latter thoughts and studies in this kind is this Antapologiâ—… which I here recommend to you for a true glasse to behold the faces of Presbyterie and Independencie in with the beauty order strength of the one and the deformity disorder and weaknesse of the other And good Reader I have some reason to beleeve and hope that if you will indeed reade and consider looke impartially and throughly into this glasse you may be either changed into the image of it or at least so stumbled at Independencie as to be kept from falling into it and willing in the meane time to waite upon God in that way of his an Assembly of so many learned and godly Divines to see what he will be pleased to speake by them I at first intended and accordingly provided materials for a large Epistle to this Book the more to make way for it in the hearts and consciences of the people as well knowing there are laid in before hand by many of the Independent party many prejudices both against my person and the Book to hinder if possible the fruit and benefit of it yea to keep people from so much as reading any part of it that so receiving and beleeving the Independent Grounds without hearing or examining the other side they may be still kept in ignorance and error I had many thoughts and purposes in my Epistle to have given the Reader an accompt of my especiall call to the making this Answer as also to have laid downe the Principles and Rules I more especially went by in the studying of these controversies and then to have Apologized for my selfe and Book by answering some objections and clearing aspersions cast abroad in this mistaking age and by representing to the Reader my many sufferings constant labours c. and so to have compared my grounds moving me to make this Antapologia with the Apologists grounds occasioning their Apologeticall Narration and my Principles with their three Principles expressed in their Apologie and my sufferings troubles patience and labours with their exile and patience c. and then left them to the Reader to judge in those matters between us but conceiving the danger of this way in comparing with the Apologists least I might become a foole in glorying and runne into the same fault I charge upon the Apologists and least it might be thought I sought to commend my Answer by such wayes rather then by the strength of the discourse it selfe I resolved to forbeare all those comparisons and vindications of my selfe and to refer all to God and that I may not hold the Reader too long in the portch I will only insist somewhat upon justifying and clearing the lawfulnesse of the way and manner of this Answer and the grounds I goe upon for matters of fact reported in it and this I must doe of necessitie for besides other grounds calling for it within these few dayes just before the Antapologie was comming forth a Pamphlet entituled The Anatomist Anatomized was printed rather to prepossesse the Reader against the Antapologie then to answer the Anatomie of Independencie as all may see and to be a shelter rather against this shower as the Anatomizer calls it ready to fall then to dry up the drops already fallen But 〈◊〉 shall by the helpe of God not only satisfie the Reader that this covering is too narrow and the stuffe too slight to keep out the shower from wetting but make an advantage of it even
their desires For instance how is a story with the Apologists practise upon it pag. 16 17 20 21. brought to prove the effectuall successe of submission and Non-communion how is their good carriage since their returne into England and their exile made use of to move for a Toleration how is all that Narration of 3 4 〈◊〉 pages of their enquirie into the Word of Christ c. laid downe as so many grounds to possesse the Reader of the truth of the Church way let the Apologeticall Narration be analiz'd and it will be found there is no point of fact or personall thing in it but is brought in some way or other as a motive or argument for their way so that of necessitie I could not avoid matter of fact unlesse I would betray the truth Paul in the second of the Galathians 11 12 13. openly rebukes Peter because he was to be blamed for his with-drawing and separating himself and because others thereupon were carried away with it and so because the Apologists doe not only withdraw and separate themselvâ—… but by their Apologeticall Narration doe even compell others also I cannot but speak 3. Propos. That 't is not argumentative against the cause that falsly called Independencie nor rationall or conducing to decide any or this controversie 1. That the Apologists and the Anatomizers way is not falsly but truly cald Independencie I referre the Reader to these pages in this present answer 201 202 203. Secondly were all the matters of fact and the Narration of them argumentative for the Apologists cause to move the Parliament and to draw the Reader to their way and is not the disproving of them argumentative against it if this be not argumentative against Independencie then I am sure the greatest part of the Apologet. Narration is nothing materiall for it and wherâ—…fore then was that storie of a Minister deposed and matter of fact upon it inserted in the Narration with many other and supposing that to be true that ther 's no reasoning from the qualitie of the person to his cause why then doe you so much doe it in your Apologie taking all occasions to magnifie your partie and reasoning from your persons to your cause from your sufferings patience c. but whether there be any strength or no in that it matters not t is strongly argumentative in any point to overthrow mens own mediums and that the Antapologie doth in a word there 's more consequence then the Anatoâ—…zer is willing to see in that maine Assertion of the Apologie That one Church may non-Communion but not excommunicate another as he termes it to the miscarriages of M. Sympson and his Church for might Presbyteriall Government take place we should not have men so easily principled into Anabaptisme nor make a covenant with separation c. as in this answer in many places is proved And so much for answer to Mr. Sympsons Book as far as it concernes the Antapologie and may be a block in the way of it Now besides this there is one objection more that hath been in the mouths of some Independents and may be instilled into many more to hinder the fruit 〈◊〉 benefit of this Answer namely against the maner of the Answer that t is 〈◊〉 Answer full of bitternesse malice reproaches railings and that t is a booke written against Gods people and good men For consutation of this objection I present to the Readers apprehension these following particulars 1. I have endeavoured for the manner of doing it that it might be without all just exceptions in regard of hard words and better speeches and I can truly say I have declined many words and phrases more proper and taken other words which in some places have readred the stile more rugged to avoide offensive phrases and all along though I often disprove matters of fact yet I never use so harsh a word to my remembrance as false much lesse a lye but untrue and this is not so whereas M. Sympson in his Pamphlet useth falsly and hath the word lye 2. I desire the conscientious indisterent Reader to consider my book is not a Treatise or Tractate upon what subject I please to speak of but an Answer and so must follow where that leads me speak to that 2. T is an Answer to a book full of matter of fact and stories of the Authours themselves so that I cannot answer without particularising the truth cannot be evidenced to the Reader without coÌ„ming somewhat to particulars 〈◊〉 The Book contains matter of high praise of themselves and their partie a few inconsiderable persons comparatively with many close indirect and dangerous insinuations against all the Reformed Churches which cannot be answered particularly without some recrimination and charge 4. There are many particulars in matters of fact I prove and charge the Apologists with and some too bad for untruth 5. I forbeare menâ—…oning the names of many particular persons which this Apologie leads me unto some wholly others I speak of only under the 〈◊〉 letter of their names and for the Apologists though I often particularly name them yet in some places of my Book and in some grosser things I forbeare particularizing them too 6. I medle not with personall things and matters of fact that are heterogeneall to relate other kind of facts and practises which I have heard on knowne of any the Apologists but speake only of such as are proper to the matter occasioned from their Apologie or the effects and fruits of their Church way the Apologists themselves giue the occasion to the laying open so many particulars which no other occasion but such an one as this could have drawn forth from me to have made their names and practices thus publike 7. In many passages of this Answer I doe upon severall occasions give the Apologists a just testimonie of that worth for parts and piety which is in them and speak to them and of them as Brethren so that let but all these things be laid together considering also the Rules of Scripture in such Cases and that I intended a plaine particular down-right Answer and this Answer will then be accounted candid moderate my peâ—…dipped in oile and not in vinegar 3. I can truly speak it that this present Antapologia is so farre from being written out of any malice or ill will to the Apologists that I love their persons and value them as brethren yea some of them above brethren and besides that love I beare to them as Saints I have a personall love and a particular love of friendship to some of them and I can truly speake it that I writ not this book nor any part of it out of any personall quarrell old grudge or former difference for to this day there never was any such difference or unkindnesse passed between us but I have writ it with much sorrow unwillingnesse and some kind of conflict in respect of that old personall love and friendship still strong in me
of this they make things accidentally evill according as this is things are or are not ordinances and meanes of salvation Baptisme is no baptisme unlesse it be administered by a Minister A Minister is no Minister unlesse cal'd by the Church and so I might speake of other things By all which it will appeare that Mr Simpson had thoughts and doubts and would have others have such thoughts too that we have neither Churches nor Ordinances nor Ministers according to his definition of a Church and to the matter contained in his letter and in the close of his letter though he writes I meddle not with judging of these things with you but propound you a rule or way to judge of things by I dare not say your Congregations are not Churches but desire you to looke that they be so for your owne peace yet it is evident by what he sayes in his letter that he accounts neither our Churches nor our Ministers true and would stumble him in these things to whom he wrote I have a manuscript entituled a Treatise of the Church going under the name of one of these Apologists and a godly Minister from whose hands I had it assured it me it was his In which Treatise there is an answer to this question But suppose Saints live in a Nation wherein there is some kind of a Church constituted already may they gather themselves into a Church The Answer is as followes 1. If you suppose that there are Churches in England yet such as never were truly members of any of them are free to begin and gather themselves into a Church and to be of the best Institution they can this libertie we under the Gospel have which the Jewes had not 2. Although they are Churches yet we â—…re not to continue in them and not remaine from them 1. In that they are Churches defective in some Ordinances as namely Prophecying mutuall admonition excommunication 2. They are Churches defiled in our judgements in which communicating we cannot but be defiled now though they be Churches as a leprous man was a man yet being defiled we cannot communiâ—…ate with them and so in regard of our use now no Churches and in the same page it is added we may be kept from joyning with the true Church and yet not withdraw from these as no Churches but as no Churches of use to us Now I appeale to the Reader what he can judge of your profession in the sixt page and of these passages in your letters and manuscripts and as some of your hands are contrary to this profession so your workes are contrary to it in forsaking the communion of our Churches and ministerie and in drawing others away and in writing to many to come to you and in setting up Churches and pray deale ingeniously once in your Reply seeing you ever held and doe now much more that our Assemblies are true Churches and our Ministers true Ministers how you can satisfie your owne consciences and us from any Scripture ground either of precept or example to separate from us I am assured you cannot produce any ground and that all Scripture instances whether in examples or precepts will never come up to your practise and case But Brethren why will you in a Narration that should be plaine that all who â—…unne may reade it deale thus fallaciously amuse the Reader with your profession of our Churches and Ministerie in such generals and never declare what you hold particularly of them Few Readers unlesse some who have throughly studied your principles and distinctions being never the wiser for your profession I must therefore of necessity English your words and tell the meaning of all this That is neither the Church or Churches of England nor the Ministery thereof as they are in their frame and constitution according to the Lawes and as they are in their visible order are true Churches or true Ministerie But now so farre as in many of our Parochiall Congregations there is something common with what you hold about a Church and Ministerie so farre true and not Antichristian As for example you hold that in some Congregations we have many visible Saints and in some Parishes Ministers chosen by the people which Ministers preach and pray according to your way but for what we else practise in our making of Ministers in our formes of prescribed prayers c. So no true Churches nor Ministerie And that this is your meaning will appeare by what followes 1. Letters and speeches of some of your way who write not so warily as you show so much Mr Batchelour a member of your Church-way in printed letters of his dated from Rotterdam September the 4th 1641. both to Ministers here in London and to Citizens speakes thus in reference to you And whereas it is beleeved they are friends to separation this I can assure you that they denie not the Churches in England such as M. Calamies and M. Goodwins in Coleman-street to be true Churches And why M. Goodwins and M. Calamies but because they were chosen by the Congregations and there are many visible Saints in those Congregations and so others of your way having been reasoned with how according to your principles That there is no Nationall visible Church under the new Testament no visible Church but a particular Congregation and that the Essence of Ministers calling is Election by the people and that the forme of a Church is a particular Covenant with other things of this Nature And therefore considering the Church of England is Nationall and hath no such Covenant nor such a way of Ministerie how they could hold we had true Churches and true Ministers Their Answer hath been You have Implicite Churches and Implicite Ministers But if you will say you understand your words in this Section not as M. Batchelour nor as others of your way but plainly as Divines usually take Churches and Ministerie then I desire you to reconcile together all your definitions and descriptions of true visible Churches and true Ministers with our Church and Ministery of England And for further satisfaction in this point I desire you in your reply to this Answer candidly and clearely to expresse your selves when you fell to your Church-way and were to be taken for Ministers in those Churches whether you held your selves or were look'd upon by your Churches as true Ministers by vertue of your calling in England Or whether rather you were not lookt upon only as gifted men and did not some of you at least renounce and disclaime your calling in England and were made Ministers a new by the Church consisting only of people or lay-Elders at the best without Ministers M. Williams in his Answer to M. Cottons letter openly justifies they held and practised so in New-England Now your principles agreeing so with theirs and some Stories related to me of some of you makes me doubt the same of you As for that reason you give why you never held our Churches no
to your practises your Churches are many yeares without them that a man cannot tell when he hath a reall testimony what you hold or how long you have held it And as for that other reall testimony as you had occasion offering to receive some of ours whom ye knew godly that came to visit you when you were in exile upon that relation fellowship and com-membership they held in their Parish-churches in England 1. 'T is no reall testimony because you oâ—…red it but doe not say you performed it 2. If you had actually performed it it is no such reall testimony of the truth of our Churches and ministery but of your own rather into the communion whereof they were received 3. Still their admission was founded upon that distinction of Implicit Churches as appeares by your following words For you would admit them upon such termes as you would gaine a principle of your own by them get more by it then communion with you was worth namely that such who were known to be godly might not come to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper unlesse they were members of some particular Congregation and so in their partaking with you they must yeeld that grand Brownisticall principle the foundation of other errors among the Separatists namely that Sacraments belong not to visible believers but as they are members of some particular Congregation As also you put them upon a practice and order never required by example or precept in the Scriptures And let me intreat you in your reply you give to this answer to give me a Scripture to prove that all men who come to the Lords Supper must professe their member-ship and their retaining to such a particular Congregation I professe my selfe of another judgement and cast the glove to any of you five or to you all That it is lawfull for the Ministers of Christ to receive such whom they know to be godly to the Lords Supper though they be not members of a particular Church and to receive those who are members without any professing themselves to be so Suppose some godly Merchants or Marriners who all their dayes travell and never stay long in any one place yet in all places where they come desire to joyne in the ordinances ought not such to be received The standing rule of comming to the Lords Supper will be found to be faith and godlinesse shown forth rather then the formality of membership But deale ingeniously doe you tell us here all that you required of the godly that came to visit you or doe you tell us only a part which question I the rather propound because as you doe relate in other parts of this Narration as in the eighth page so I find Mr Batchelour one of you writing from Rotterdam of your Churches that they will not keepe back the Sacrament from any of the godly of such Churches in England as Mr Goodwins and Mr Calamyes are alwayes provided that their own Pastours doe consent unto it Now the godly who are gone into Holland and especially to New-England not finding any such word in Scripture of bringing a ticket from their Ministers and so comming into those Countreyes without it may be long kept from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper till they either goe into England and fetch it or till they send for it over and have a returne back of the consent of their own Pastors which may be was the reason that though you offered to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper some godly that came to visit you in your exile yet for want of bringing their Pastors consent unto it returned into England without partaking in the Lords Supper with you Which by the way will be a good warning for all that henceforth goe over into Holland or New-England to carry their Ministers consents over with them least otherwise they be not admitted to the Lords Supper and that you doe not deale plainely with us in this relation of admitting the godly in the Parish Churches of England into the Communion of the Lords Supper with you but there is some reservation and evasion I much doubt because the known godly in the Parish-church of Coleman-street which amongst Parish-churches is one of your true Churches in England cannot be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper by vertue of their relation of membership they hold in the Parish-church never since their Pastor fell into your Church-way As for your publike and avowed declarations to this purpose which many hundreds can witnesse I never heard of any of them in any publike meetings though I have been in many nor in any Sermons you have preacht though I have heard of many things you preacht which you are like to heare of in this Answer But if I may speake what I have heard there hath been a Narrative promised from you of what you hold which many Ministers also can witnesse but was never performed by you till this day As to that in the close of this Section that some of your brethren in their printed books doe candidly testifie for you It is but one of them not some unlesse you take in Mr Herles Imprimatur to your Apologie who I doubt not before this time by what he hath heard from some of his bretheren of the Assembly and seen in that book intituled Reformation of Church-government in Scotland with the contents of the Letters from some Churches beyond the seas besides the light this Answer will give will see easily how by your courting of him he was surprized And it is no wonder that Mr Herle Mr Channell with some other men of worth having lived somewhat remote and having not been much conversant with you and your distinctions might be at first mistaken with such good words and solemne professions And as we alwayes held this respect unto our own Churches in this Kingdome so we received and were entertained with the like from those reformed Churches abroad among whom we were cast to live wee both mutually gave and received the right hand of fellowship which they on their parts abundantly manifested by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects which they tollerate but not owne and all the assemblies of them which yet now we are here some would needs ranke us with granting to some of us their own Churches or publike places for worship to assemble in where themselves met for the worship of God at differing houres the same day As likewise the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto our meetings Which we mention because it is amongst them made the great signall of difference between their own allowed Churches and all other assemblies unto whom it is strictly prohibited and forbidden as Guiciardine hath long since observed And others of us found such acceptance with them that in testimony thereof they allowed a full and
liberall maintenance annually for our Ministers yea and constantly also wine for our Communions And then we againe on our parts not only held all brotherly correspondencie with their Divines but received also some of the members of their Churches who desired to communicate with us unto communion in the Sacraments and other ordinances by vertue of their relation of membership retained in those Churches In the last Section I prooved both by Letters and many other presumptions you alwayes held not that respect to the Church of England you seeme to professe in that Section if now at last you be growne more sober and wise upon reviewing your principles I am glad of it non est pudor ad meliora transire For this Section your being received and entertained with the like respect from those Reformed Churches abroad and your mutually giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship If I may beleeve reports and Letters and those not light but from Ministers and good people I have been by word of mouth told and I have in writing from thence grounds to question the truth of this Narration A godly Minister out of Holland in answer to some questions sent about the truth of your Apologie writes thus to this present Section And here I cannot but adde this that whereas the Apologeticall Narration mentions these things as an argument of the incouragements they had in these parts and their good concurrence with the Churches here it hath been affirmed to me from very good testimony that however the Magistrates at Rotterdam for politick ends as to gather company to them which is for the profit of the place yet the Churches there I meane the Dutch never approoved of the course held there by these Brethren and their people It hath been affirmed to me that many of the Dutch Ministers were much offended at Mr Bridges being ordained Minister by the Lay-elders without any preaching Presbyters And what ever right-hand fellowship and brotherly correspondency you might hold with the Dutch Divines some of the English Ministers of the Reformed Churches there have complained of your great strangenesse and distance towards them and instance hath been given me particularly by a great friend of yours now in London that when some of you have come to Amsterdam you never would goe to Mr Herrings a good old non-conformist but have gone to Mr Canne's the Separatist and to his Church And besides this report told me some yeares agoe from a friend of your owne that I might not only beleeve reports I sent over into Holland some questions about the truth of some things related by you in this Apologie the contrary whereunto I had been informed of before and among other questions upon this Section I propounded what communion and converse passed between the godly English Ministers and their Congregations and you or whether when you came to Amsterdam you went not rather to the Brownists meetings and conversed with Mr Canne more then the Reformed Ministers Unto which question I had this answer in so many words sent To this I can say that since my comming hither we have had no such communion with them as that we have prevailed with any of them to preach in our Congregation though I am sure some of them have beene earnestly importuned thereunto indeed Mr Bridge seemed once to be willing but did not And for their going to the Brownists and conversing with Mr Canne more then us that is undeniable What you may of this reade in Epistle to the Rejoinder indefence of Mr Bradshaw against Mr Canne is most true and certaine But suffer me a little to examine the particulars wherein you would proove the mutuall giving and receiving the right-hand of fellowship For the first That you were received and entertained with the like respect that you gave to our Churches in England I easily beleeve which was but little And if the Reformed Churches look't upon you and you on them as you did upon our Churches in this Kingdome you have no cause to boast here of mutuall giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship remembring what I answered to your last Section concerning your profession of our Churches As to that proofe you bring of their giving you the right hand of fellowship in their abundantly manifesting it by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects c I answer this was not to all of your Churches for Mr Simpson which yet is your way and is here owned by you all in this Apologie had not a Church or publike place for worship granted to him nor the priviledge of ringing a Bell to call to meetings but was looked upon as a Sect as Mr Bridge told me And in a Letter out of Holland from a good hand to that question Whether Mr Simpsons Church had the allowance of ringing a publike Bell to call to their meeting and whether any maintenance allowed by the States 'T is answered To this I shall say I never yet heard by any that his Church had any such allowance of Bell or maintenance by the States Now if Mr Simpsons Church was lookt upon as a Sect tollerated but not owned wanting that great signall of difference between allowed Churches and all other assemblies namely the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto their meetings and the rest of your Churches being just of the same way and constitution with his as appeares by this Apologie then the ranking of you now you are here with Sects is no great injury to you Neither will the granting to your two other Churches publike places to worship with maintenance for some of your Ministers c. free you from being lookt upon as Sects by the Churches and Ministers there but I must tell you these priviledges came from other grounds as namely one of your Churches consisting of many persons of great quality and going at first to a priviledged place the other Church having formerly been a Church in the way of the Reformed Churches there and so had then the allowance of a publike place The first sensible declining of that Church to the new-way being by Mr Peters before he went to New-England Now Mr Bridge comming to that Church and bringing with him and after him wealthy Citizens and Clothiers by which the Magistrates at Rotterdam knowing well their advantage No wonder though they permitted that Church their publike place and gave to their Ministers a full and liberall maintenance yea and Wine for their Communions and yet should gaine well by it As for your holding all brotherly correspondency with their Divines which I suppose you meane the Dutch not knowing any of them I can say nothing against it but only 't is a great presumption that holding so little brotherly correspondencie with our own English Divines there you held not much with the Dutch But grant that
used every Lords day in the reformed Churches then the particulars mentionad by you without an c. and therefore what you meane by under c. unlesse Prophesying Hymnes and such like I cannot imagine For Officers and publike Rulers in the Church whether you actually had made any Church-Widdowes in any of your Churches they being matter of charge which also as for admitting of poore members some of you are very carefull of I cannot affirme but that you hold Widdowes to be Officers of the Church and part of the Church government that I can prove by these following instances 1. By a passage in a Letter from Mr Bridge to some at Norwitch by Mr Davenports profession of faith printed and by Mr Cottons Catechisme And how much you have of late reasoned for such a Church Officer in the Assembly you know And let the Reader observe that by the way that we must judge of your wayes rather by what you hold then alwayes by your practise for one of your Churches hath been some yeares without a Pastour the first and chiefe Officer and yet you set up such moch more may you be without Widdowes for some yeares and yet hold them and as you have Widdowes a Church Officer which the reformed Churches hold not so in one of your Churches you have had Teaching Elders besides a Pastor and Teacher And what ever the reformed Churches hold of their Officers as necessary and sufficient for the perpetuall government of the Church Yet your practise is not as if you held them necessary and perpetuall for one of your Churches hath been many yeares without a Pastour the prime Officer and Ruler in the Church and other of your Churches without other officers which if they were so necessary and as instituted by Christ and his Apostles for the perpetuall Governement of the Church how you can be without these officers and namely the most necessarie and principall for many yeares together I cannot see And I desire you in your Reply to satisfie us and to shew Reason how you can depart from that which is confest by all Churches and your selves to for the maintaining an opinion of the essentiall difference betweene Pastours and Teachers in each Congregation so much denied by many learned and godly Divines As for that Parenthesis about ruling Elders with us not Lay but Ecclesiastick persons separated to that service I desire to know wherein and how your ruling Elders are more Ecclesiasticke persons and separated to that service then the ruling Elders of the Reformed Churches The Reformed Churches account their ruling-Elders Ecclesiasticall persons and they are separated to that worke by election and ordination and whereas you make a distinction in the manner of your expressions between ruling Elders separated to that service and Deacons I aske you whether Deacons are not Ecclesiasticall persons and separated to that service by Election and ordination as well as Elders what are your more and in what further degree are they Ecclesiasticall then the ruling Elders of the Reformed Churches or your owne Deacons doe you meane them so Ecclesiasticall and separated to that service of ruling so as the Pastours and Teachers are to their office that is separated from all civill Imployments and callings to the worke of wholly attending the flocke and of being as Ministers and preachers of the word now if you understand it in this sense that all your ruling-Elders doe give over their civill callings and worldly imployments and are so separated as Pastours and Teachers are it being the duty of the ruling-Elder to teach publikely as well as governe then I have nothing to say against your ruling-Elders And this puts an end to all that controversie about Lay-Elders onely let me aske you two questions 1. What specificall difference you will give me betweene those officers the Ministers of the word and ruling-Elders Seeing both rule and preach and what becomes then of those texts 1 Cor. 12. Rom. 12. Which are held out to prove Church Government by and amongst other particulars are brought to prove that besides those who teach and preach the word the Scripture reckons up Governours and Rulers 2. Whether did your Gentlemen and Merchants who were made ruling-Elders among you upon their office give over their merchandizing and their way of living as Gentlemen wholly applying themselves to their studies and to all gravitie in apparell haire c. But now if your ruling-Elders doe follow their merchandizing and trade and are not as Pastours and Teachers how can you affirme of them to be more Ecclesiastick persons then your Deacons or then the Elders of other Reformed Churches And as for the matter of Governement and censures of the Church you did forget here what you were to write in the 16th page and in the 21th How one of your Churches unhappily deposed one of their Ministers which censure was neither admonition nor excommunication upon obstinacie and impenitence But the particulars under this head I have spoken to upon this Section alreadie But as I have clearly and unanswerably shewed your publique worship was made up of other parts then the worship of all other Reformed Churches and have instanced wherein you practised and held over and above so let me from this Narration of your wayes and practises here question whether you practised all parts of worship and censures which other Churches practise For I feare your Narration as it is all a long subtilly carried for though you say your worship was made of no other parts nor you executed no other censures but what all acknowledge so it may be here and you may conceale what you have omitted was your worship then and is it still made up of all these Doe all of you hold or did you practise in Holland the reading the Scriptures of the old and new Testament as an Ordinance without any exposition and doe you practise the singing of Psalmes according to the way of Reformed Churches I have been told that at Roterdam the Scriptures were never read barely without Exposition and there are many of your Church way and communion that will neither joyne in hearing the Scriptures read nor in singing of Psalmes in our Congregations Which makes me doubt some of you may be of the same opinion and practise And did all of you whilest you were in Holland and doe you now administer Baptisme to all the Infants of your Churches or are there not some Infants unbaptized amongst you and for the matter of censures though you say you had nor executed no other but what all acknowledge yet you doe not affirme you executed all censures which other Reformed Churches acknowledge and so you conceale your judgement of things Yet in this Narration of your way and practises you carry your discourse so in this Section as if your practise and way were all the same with the Reformed Churches but had you dealt ingeniously in the Narration of the way and practises of your Churches you
should have laid downe particularly as wherein and how farre you agreed with the Reformed Churches so also wherein you departed from them namely you should have shewed in what you practised more then they doe and wherein you practise short of them and in the things you practised with them yet how you differ'd in the manner of them but to returne to that of censures Reformed Churches practise besides admonition and before they come to excommunication that which is called by Divines Abstentio à sacracaena but you doe not so but conceale this but brethren why should you not practise this especially considering how according to your principles the Church is to receive the Lords Supper every Lords day Now suppose some members commit a great sinne on the Saturday which though comming it be known to the Ministers or Elders and some of the people either there may be no time to call the Church to admonish the parties or if there be for admonition yet not time sufficient for the parties to testifie Repentance and yet the persons may not be judged obstinate and impenitent as to be excommunicated but the persons offending will come now to the Lords table in the interim what will you doe in this case And further the Reformed Churches enjoyne the censure of open confession of sinnes and practise deposition of officers from their places which may justly arise upon some cases and yet not thinke it fit to proceed unto excommunication as your selves practised in M. Wards case never proceeding to give him up to Satan but how lame and defective is this your Narration about the governement of the Church onely relating two things you practised in common with the Reformed Churches and as concealing other things you practised not with them so wholly passing over in silence here all your different way of practising from all Churches in the way of ordination in the way of constituting Churches and admission into them and in the way of governing by the votes and suffrages of the whole bodie in the way of celebration the Lords Supper receiving it at night c. in the Sacrament of Baptisme with many other particulars which whether it be fairly done I appeale to the Reader who is by this much deceived thinking upon the reading of this Narration that you had agreed in all things of Worship Officers Censures with the Reformed Churches But to returne to that censure of Excommunication which you insist upon laying downe your judgement about the subject of that censure As for your blessing God you never exercised it There may be but little ground for such a blessing but cause rather to be humbled for not using it seasonably I judge had you practised it some revilings evill speakings between many members of your Churches with some other offences might have been prevented But there is no such great cause to set out your selves by the non-exercise of Excommunication if what you hold for the matter of it be considered wherein I suppose you differ from all Orthodox Reformed Churches and doe open a wide gappe to much licentiousnesse both in doctrine and practise What doe you judge Is it not to be put in Execution for no other kind of sinnes then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. What if men practise Polygamie prophane the Lords day by using it as they doe any other daie what if they doe hold and accordingly will have practised communitie of goods amongst beleevers what if they maintaine that Christians ought not to be Magistrates all which are not condemned in all the Churches of Christ especially if some Churches may be taken for Churches of Christ and we have reason to beleeve by your manner of expressions you include such neither are perpetrated against the parties knowne light but rather are practised upon new light and as new truthes and let me intreate you in your Replie to explain your meaning what you meane by all the Churches of Christ and by the common received practises of Christianitie and what by the principles of Christianitie universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches whether by Churches you understand the Churches onely of your owne communion and waie or the Churches which are commonly called the Reformed Or else all Churches whatsoever that are so called as besides your owne and the Reformed the Churches of the Anabaptists Antinomians and such like And I have reason to propound this question your words being so doubtfull Now if your words and phrases be taken in the first sence of your Churches only that those sinnes and no other are to be the subject of Excommunication then great sins and errours according to the Scripture and judged so by Orthodox Churches may escape Excommunication and on the contrarie many matters which according to Scripture are neither sinnes nor errours but only your Churches hold them so may have that dreadfull sentenee passe upon them but if you meane it in the largest sence for all kind of Churches and for the received principles and practises of Christianitie professed and acknowledged in all the Churches then more sinnes and errours so judged by the word by most Churches and by your owne Churches too will not be acknowledged for such in all the rest of the Churches and so shall escape that censure But if you should say you meane onely the Reformed-churches commonly so called and the common received practises professed by them it cannot be so understood as is evident by your own expressions in this passage about Excommunication So that here are strange unsafe rules to goe by in the censure of Excommunication and I judge it is a part of the new light and now truths of these times never yet given by any learned Classicall Authour How much better were it for Churches to make the subject of Excommunication such sins and errours which the Scripture hath made so and those sinnes to be agreed upon by common consent in Assemblies and Synods so drawne up for all to know them But if it be objected that this may hinder further light and an after discoverie I answer when any thing more shall come to be found out this need be no hinderance unto any light but by the publike Government and common consent upon good grounds may be added But this your judgement about the censure of Excommunication I feare is calculated for the Meridian of pretended liberty of conscience Now this position of holding the subject of Excommunication to be onely such sins and errours as are against the parties knowne light and the common received practises of Christianity professed in all Churches and no other to be the subject of it tends much to the tolerating of Sects and Heresies which in this impure age is by many men and by too many of the Church way so studiously promoted against the nature of Reformation and true zeale But if one of the great ends of Excommunication be to preserve others from
infection and to keepe the Church of God pure as Divines teach then thuogh the party offending shall pretend such sins or errours are not against his knowne light neither contrary to the received principles of Christianity universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches yet Excommunication ought to be exercised by them who have power in the Church And for our direction in these or whatsoever else requisite to the manage of them We had these three principles more especially in our eye to guide and steere our practise by 1. First The supreame rule without us was the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles Our consciences were possessed with that reverence and adoration of the fulnesse of the Scriptures that there is therein a compleate sufficiencie as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect meere circumstances we except or what rules the law of nature doth in common dictate if the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed And although we cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst us or that may give satisfaction unto all Queries possible to be put unto us yet we found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall to the being of a Church but superstructorie also for the well-being of it and those to us cleare and certain and such as might well serve to preserve our Churches in peace and from offence and would comfortably guide us to heaven in a safe way And the observation of so many of those particulars to be laid forth in the word became to us a more certaine evidence and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever if we were able to discerne them And for all such cases wherein we saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction we still professedly suspended untill God should give us further light not daring to seeke out what was defective in our light in matters divine with humanâ—… prudence thâ—… fatall errour to Reformation lest by sowing any peece of the old garment unto the new we should make the rent worse we having this promise of grace for our encouragement in this which in our publike Assemblies was often for our comfort mentioned that in thus doing the will of God we should know more From the Narration of your way and practises of your Churches you come now to shew the three great principles above all others by which you guided your selves in your practise which I come now to examine and doubt not but as you have exprest them to discover to the Readers their weaknesse and defectivenesse and easily to take off all the seeming strength of the reasons hinted in them for your selves and against us To the first Principle the supreame rule without you the primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles which also is exprest by you in the third page as that sacredpillar of fire to guide you by in all the positive part of Church worship and Government I answer why is the old Testament forgotten by you and in both these places not so much as mentioned What is the old Testament no patterne nor example to you in Church-worship and governement nor is there nothing recorded there any part of the sacred pillar of fire to guide you by Consider whether in this you follow not too much the example of some Heretiques and erroneous spirits who will have nothing to doe with the old Testament in the points they hold This is the way of the Anabaptists and of the Antinomians both of old and at this day and I am sorry such men as you in such a formall Apologie and Narration of your way as you hold out this to be should so farre forget your selves as to countenance such persons so farre And I must tell you that your search was insufficient and your rule too short if you looked only on the first Apostolike directions patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles For in the old Testament there are many rules directions and examples as a pillar of fire to guide the Churches now by as that Rom. 15. 4. showes namely those examples and rules of morall and common equitie else the Church of God should loose now many a good ground for many practises and you and your partie have been ill advised to fetch grounds out of the old Testament for many things you hold and practise There are some things you practise that you have no proofe for at all out of the new Testament either in example or precept As for instance in the point of Ordination by the people without Officers you alleadge the 8. Numb 20. but can bring none out of the new Testament so for the Church-covenant you multiply places out of the old as Ier. 50. 5. c. But none out of the new and so for that power which you allow Christian Magistrates in the Church you fetch from the old Testament So in the point of idolatrie against the naming the names used by Idolaters you bring all out of the old Testament as Mr Burroughs in his Exposition on Hosea 2. And without the taking in the old Testament which you so wholly forget in this your first principle you would loose much strength in severall points you hold and practise against some who differ from you As in the Baptisme of Infants from the Covenant made with Abraham and his seed and the Circumcision of Infants as in keeping the Christian Sabbath from the fourth Commandement as in speaking against humane inventions in the worship of God from the second Commandement with other particulars of the same kind Now if you will use the old Testament in some examples and commands as you doe though here you forget to mention it Then grounds out of the old Testament in matters not ceremoniall and judiciall proper to the Jewes policie Nation and times but in things of morall and common equitie will justifie other practises And how then you can escape in the way of Church government the lawfullnesse of appeales from lower Judicatories to higher and the lawfullnesse of Formes of publike prayer composed and prescribed with other particulars I see not But because you foresaw these and such like as that of a Nationall Church you here decline the old Testament and speake only of the New and but of a part only of that too namely that of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles as your words in both pages third and ninth intimate The Churches erected by the Apostles and the first Apostolike directions patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches recorded in the new Testament which reaches no farther then the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles But though you doe
Scriptures the authority of Councels and Synods and you shall find satisfaction to most of the materiall grounds which have misled you in your Church-way In which answers you shall find that the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scripture is principally meant in matters of doctrine and in points necessary to salvation And for policie and externall order wherein the Scriptures doe reach to them it is to be understood of the Essentials Substantials and Fundamentals of Government and Discipline and not of the accidentals accessaries and circumstantials as I could abundantly out of Calvin Beza Zanchius Iunius Daneus shew you But I intend a whole Tractate upon that question of the Scriptures how farre they are a rule for all matters of externall government and order in the visible Church with an answer to this objection particularly and will not enlarge further saving only that I will adde the resolution of this question and case out of Whitaker Chamier and Cameron who are full and cleare that 't is not against the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that all matter of externall order and policie are not laid down in the word Learned Chamier shewes the judgement of the Churches of France Holland nay he shews 't is the perpetuall opinion of all the Protestants and he adds Yea truly to speake as the matter is The Church cannot be altogether without unwritten traditions and he instances in certain Rites according to places times and persons changeable and various So Cameron For since the Scripture hath been ordained of God to make one wise unto salvation and perfect unto every good work it must without doubt containe all doctrine necessary to salvation otherwise it could not attaine its end Let us then adore as Tertullian speakes the fulnesse of the Scriptures and let us not heare as Athanasius speaketh neither receive any thing besides or above them in that which concernes the doctrine of faith For touching the policie and ceremonies used in the Church it is another matter we avouch that the Fathers did not thinke themselves bound to give an account of them by the Scripture So Dr Whitakers speaks also the same in that question and controversie of the perfection of the Scriptures against humane traditions Catholici in hoc toto negotio distinguendum putant inter râ—…s quae traduntur in Ecclesia rationem earum tradendarum res ipsas esse duorum generum scilicot alias in quibus substantia est quasi conpus religionis Christianae non tantum ad fidem sed etiam ad mores formandos politiamque Ecclesiae continendam proinde necessarias ex vi institutionis divinae alias ejuâ—… essentiae velut appondices ejusque corporis ornamenta neque ex sâ—… neque ex institutiono divina necessarias sed potiuâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 politiâ—… tantum causa in usum receptas ut sunt disciplinae partos varijs caenoâ—…ibus sancitae Imo vero ut fateamur quod res est omnino non potest Ecclesia carere Traditionibus non scripâ—…is sive intelligas quotidianam tradendae fidâ—…libus ojus veritatis quae non aliunde hauritur quam è libris sacris rationem sive ritus quosdampro locis tempâ—…ribus persâ—…nis varios aptos tamen exercendae pietati charitatique conservandae qui etsi non extent in canone totidem literis tamen a nemine contemni debent eo ipso quod ab Ecclesia id est pastoribus instituti sunt dum tamen nihil officiant aut sinceritati doctrinae aut libertati conscientiae cui propriè leges prescribit non nisi Deus Non dicimus omnes liberas ceremonias esse nominatim in Scripturis traditas ut quemadmodum se gerere debeant homines in sacris caetibus hujusmodi quas esse varias 〈◊〉 pro temporum personarum ratione minime ignoramus de caeremonijs inquam liberis quae ad externam tantum politiam decorum pertinent non contendimus sed de necessaria doctrina Haec perpetua illae vero non perpetuae sed ad tempora accommodatae Deinde fatemur Apostolos in singulis Ecclesiis ritus aliquos atque consuetudines ordinis decoris causa sanxisse non autem scripsisse quia hi ritus non fuerunt perpetui futuri sed liberi qui pro commodo temporum ratione muâ—…ri possunt Praescriptos autem ab illis esse ejusmodi ritus aliquos ad honestam Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accommodatos pater ex 1 Cor. 11. 14. cap. Tantum generalis regula habetur in Scripturis omnes istosritus ad adificationem ac decorum esse dirigendos sed ipsi particulares ritus non proponuntur At dicimus omnia quae necessaria sunt sive ad fidem sive ad vitam spectent apertè abundè in Scripturis explicari Now as for the exception made by you of this rule of meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature where what you affirme seems to amount to this that you practised all the examples of the Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles excepting those Suffer me to aske you these few questions upon your exceptions made of this first rule First What you meane by meere circumstances and what by the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate because the Reader may be much deceived in these generall and doubtfull expressions you should have done well to have particularized what you judge circumstances and what meere circumstances and what be the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as also have laid downe before the Reader how you in your Church-way keepe unto these and I aske the rather because I find a Sermon of Mr Bridge one of the Authors of this Apologie preacht before the House of Commons not long before this Apologie came forth that makes none of these exceptions but excepts and excludes them shewing that in the visible Church Gods word is our line able to reach unto all particular affaires of the Churches and in particular he labours to answer that of circumstances and perverts two sayings of Luther and Bishop Iewel Secondly Whether you doe practise and observe your own rule here given with the exceptions made by you or whether you doe not much depart from it in your Church-way not yeelding to meere circumstances nor the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as for instance receiving the Lords Supper at night contrary to the practise of the reformed Churches standing upon that circumstance of time denying appeales from the particular Congregations whereas appeales are a rule the law of nature doth in common dictate Thirdly I demand of you how you could so nakedly propound the Apostolicall directions patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches to walke by excepting meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature and not except withall extraordinary and miraculous personall and particular occasionall and accidentall temporary and locall patterns and examples
I owne the Scripture for the rule rightly understanding it and in matters of Discipline and Church-order professe to walke by it desiring to be tied to the Scripture patterns particularly to the patterns of examples and precepts recorded in the new Testament provided this be understood in essentials and fundamentals of order in matters of perpetuall use and of a common reason to all times and places only I adde that in some things where in matter of order and externall government there may be no such cleare directions either by precept or example there generall rules of the word with deductions out of Scripture examples and from precepts by way of Analogie with rules of common prudence be taken in too Now the interpretation of this rule as I have laid it downe being rejected and the rule simply taken up without such limitations will produce a wilde and strange discipline and Church-order to practise all things recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles without distinction and difference of those times persons places and ours and on the other hand to practise nothing but what hath a cleare example or precept is strange too and in so doing reasonable men cannot become a Church society nor exercise Church communion And however in matters of externall government and administration of holy things in the visible Church some pretend to this to practise whatever they find recorded in the Scriptures and to practise nothing whatsoever they find not there yet none of the Independents no not the highest forme of them the Anabaptists nor the highest sort of Anabaptists who were called Apostolici from their pretending to imitate the Apostles in all things ever yet have or doe practise all patternes and examples recorded in the new Testament or are contented with them alone but practise somewhat over and above not particularly recorded in Scripture I could lay downe a catalogue of many particulars specified in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles not practised in your Churches nor in any Churches of the independent way as also of many things practised by you which we never read of in the Scriptures so that all the Independents are in many things according to the first patterne both defective and excessive But I referre the full handling of this to a Tractate I intend concerning the Scriptures How farre the Scriptures are a rule for all matters of Church government and order in the visible Church I adde only one thing for the Readers sake that they be carefull to understand this first principle of yours not so nakedly as you lay it downe in page 8 9 10 11. because it hath been is and may be a rock to split many on and an Ignis fatuus to lead many into waters instead of a sacred pillar of fire to guide to Heaven in a safe way This foolish imitation of the Apostles in all things in matters of externall order hath been and is the great foundation of evils on all hands both in many practises and points of Popery and amongst the Anabaptists as I could demonstrate in particulars Learned Danaeus in his Commentaries upon 1. Tim. cap. 5. speakes of it Schlusselburgius writes also that there is a sort of Anabaptists cal'd Apostolici so named because they professed to imitate the Apostles in all things they washed one anothers feet they held all things ought to be common they travailed up and downe without staffe shooes cloake money because of Christs words they went up to the tops of houses to preach because Christ had said what you have heard in the eare preach upon the house top Now how farre the want of these limitations and distinctions in this your first rule hath led some of you into errors and strange practises and may leade you further as into annoynting the sick with oyle baptising in rivers c. I leave you to consider of But yet this first and great principle upon which you went and reared up your new Church way how difficult and abstruse a rule and how doubtfull a ground-worke doe you make it before you passe from it by making that supposition upon it If the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed And that you cannot professe that sufficiency of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules c. Now then brethren consider with your selves according to your owne grant how for all this principle of the Primitive patterne to guide you by yet it being so hard to know and find out the way and you not having that sufficiencie of knowledge to lay forth the rules how easily might you be out of the way then for all this principle and how can we indeed thinke otherwise of you being a few men and going by your selves So that supposing the Apostolicall directions and Primitive examples of the Churches not excluding the Old Testament and Gospels to be the only rule of the outward administration and government of the visible Church and granting these were more especially in your eye to guide and steere your practise by considering by your own confession there is so much difficulty to make these out and to lay downe what is a binding and standing direction and what not what is meerly circumstantiall and what not and how to apply many things which fall out to such rules and such examples recorded Yet wee may see how unsafe and dangerous it was for you and for a few persons to set up Churches and Church-government and we may hence learne what great use and need there is of Synods and Assemblies to draw out Church-government and discipline and still in all difficult cases to meet for the debating and determining of things And by the way let me admonish many of your followers of their boldnesse and rashnesle of determining in matters of Church-government and order holding all things about discipline and Church-government to be so manifestly and clearely laid downe in the Scriptures as the light of the Sunne and thereupon censuring many for not holding with them imputing it to their want of self-deniall and spirituall knowledge By this they may see their great Leaders judge otherwise who speaking upon the Scriptures being a compleate rule to make the Churches perfect put in a caution and declare They cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst them Now if the Apologists men so able cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge c. who yet according to their owne Narration tell us how they saw the darke part before many others and how they had all that light of the Non-conformists Reformed-churches New-England c. What shall we thinke of a few private illiterate Christians setting up of Churches and framing a government will this assure them though the Scriptures be a perfect rule for Church-government and this is the supreme rule
they goe by that therefore they are in the right certainly the great difficultie in knowing and finding out the directions and examples and in applying them aright and their weake knowledge will give ground sufficient to all reasonable men to suspect the contrary And for your selves Brethren the Reader hath greater reason to judge from what you here grant about the difficultie of the Scriptures in the Church-way and your insufficiencie and ignorance in many cases and to many queries that you might be out of the way then from the sufficiency of the Scriptures to make Churches perfect and your making the Scriptures your supreame rule that you only should be in the right and withall taking-in this that the Reformed Churches you depart from and all along reflect upon in this Apologeticall Narration holding the Scriptures in a true sense to have a perfection for Church-government and setting them up as the supreame rule to eye continually and having the great advantage of you knowing the directions and examples in Scripture better then you by reason of their great learning numbers long studying these points all you speake here of this principle as a ground to take men with and possesse the Readers of the truthof your way rather then theirs hath no strength in it but the scale of sufficiencie of knowledg and ability of finding out the rules and applying being heavier on the Reformed Churches side and the other scale of making the Scriptures the rule equall to yours also you must needs be found light compared with them But after your supposition of the great difficulty of understanding this rule and profession of the non-sufficiencie of your knowledge by which you weaken so much what you would gaine by the narration of setting up this first principle as the supreame rule without you yet before you leave it in the following words you seeme to affirme it Indeed interfeering and hovering about not knowing well where to light and to settle between the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to all Church matters and the difficultie of finding out the rules and directions As the precedent words and subsequent put together doe shew For you found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall but superstructorie also and those to you cleare and certaine and such as might well serve c. Now let the Reader judge if these words doe not not declare a sufficiencie of your knowledge without either Ifs or And 's But you must pardon me if I doe not beleeve you found principles enough superstructorie and that upon these two following grounds 1. Had you found principles enough superstructorie for the wel-being of your Churches and those cleare and certaine and such as might well serve to preserve your Churches in peace and from offence and would comfortably guide you to heaven in a safe way How came it to passe that you made no better a use of them for the well-being of your Churches to have preserved them in peace and from offence but that in so short a time so many offences and differences should fall out and you go so uncomfortably to heaven doubting whether you were in the right way for Church-government and order 2. If you had found out principles enough superstructorie why did you not name them at least some of them you might have done well to have given the Reader a taste of them it would have given good content especially in such a Narration I am of opinion both upon your totall silence and upon some search into these points that besides the fundamentall and essentiall principles to the being of a visible Ministeriall Church you found not many superstructories laid downe particularly in the Primitive Churches either in practise or precept namely ordinary perpetuall c. And I doe desire you setting aside Fundamentall essentiall and substantiall principles that for the superstructories upon them and your deductions you would give me proofes from the Scripture for many of your practises setting aside generall rules of the word and common rules of reason and prudence And whereas you make the observation of so many of those particulars laid forth in the word to become a more certain evidence and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever if you were able to discerne them Had you exprest any of those particulars the Reader might have gained somewhat and I could have better told from your instances what to have answered you and might have shewne you the dissimilitude how they might not have inferr'd the rest but here as in other passages of your booke you find it safest to be in the clouds and to lie hid in generals But grant it for once you observed many particulars It followes not therefore from many to all But this is a point and principle wherein weake arguments will become certain evidence and cleare confirmation to you But let me hint only some things to you now because this discourse is but the answer of a Narration not of all arguments that may be brought you are mistaken both in your Observation and your cleare confirmation of what followes for you shall find that in the superstructories of the government of the Church there are but few particulars laid downe in the patterne and example of the Primitive Churches and those primitive practises are not such a rule given by God in matters of that nature as that all things then practised must be so in all after times or that nothing afterwards might be practised but what is found there For besides meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature there are in severall Churches other things tending to the better edification of those Churches to comelinesse decencie outward reverence order peace grounded upon generall rules of the word which in other Churches are not so by reason of the different customes of such countries and the diversities of times and places wherein they were For that is comelinesse and reverence in one country which is not in another So that my observation of so few particular superstructories recorded in the Primitive Churches namely of common ordinary perpetuall order with the different practises in the severall Churches recorded in the new Testament and sometimes in the same Church in many things of the outward administration of externall order are sound proofes to me there are not rules nor ruled cases for many superstructories in externall Government And as to that clause which followes next in this Section for all such cases wherein you saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction you still professedly suspended untill God should give you further light not daring to eeke out what was defective in your light in matters divine with humane prudence c. For answer I must tell you you either saw that in the Scripture that we cannot see by all search or else you practised many things that have no cleare resolution from Scripture neither in example
that most supreame namely to be in all things guided by the perfect will of God enacted as the most sacred law of all other in the midst of all other laws and Canons Ecclesiasticall in Christian States and Churches throughout the world This is a dangerous principle to goe by in the Church of God excellent for unstable men and wanton wits fitted for libertins and running heads that love no fixed nor setled government and serves well to the humour of a few particular persons but pernitious and sad for Nationall Churches and Kingdomes a reserve indeed and a good back doore to go out at from Brownisme to Anabaptisme and from Anabaptisme to Sebaptisme and from thence to Famialisme and Socinianisme It is a ready prepared way for those that would draw men into errours under the pretence of new light to worke upon and so to lead men from one errour to another till there be no end Which kind of principle of uncertainty in matters of religion the Remonstrants did hold forth in those sad times of the troubles of the Churches in the Netherlands that so they might overturne all formes and harmonies whereby the Churches both within themselves and one towards another might be setled and associated that was one of the scepticall rules of the Arminians dies diem docet But this principle of yours so carried all along in your resolutions seemes to crosse that first principle of the Scriptures the supreame rule and perfect for Church government for in effect it is as much as to hold that the government and way of the Church visible is so uncertaine and doubtfull as that little or none may be positively laid downe and concluded as Iure Divino Now according to this second principle and profession of yours why doe you make such outeries and tragedies in the Church forsaking all Churches for you know not what even for that which you made open and constant professions upon all occasions you would not be bound to and pray how doth this agree with your principle of Church government that it is in all particulars perpetuall and unchangeable whenas you will be changing it so often But certainely when you first fell to your Church-way and took up this principle you were not resolved what way to follow but thought that in some yeares by adding now and then and forsaking this and the other you might attaine to something in the end But let me aske you ought men in the matters of Religion and in things of the Kingdome of Christ to be Scepticks and so irresolved or ought not men to be perswaded in their consciences But I hope the Parliament will observe this great principle you were first acted by and still are in all your Church-way and will see how dangerous the tolerating of your way will be for though you should for present hold nothing much different from the established rule yet being allowed what may you not come to according to this principle how shall any State be sure of you long what you will hold What if you should bring in community of goods baptizing in rivers the holy Kisse into your Assemblies at the beginning and ending of your Ordinances annointing sick persons with oyle it is but according to your principle And we see you make so much of this principle and are so in love with it that you wish it next to your first principle enacted as the most sacred Law of all other to live and walke by it in Christian States and Churches throughout the world and I am perswaded if you would speake out you wish it instead of all other Laws and Canons 〈◊〉 You are not content your selves to be Scepticks and loose in the government of the visible Church but you would have all others to be liâ—… unto you not to make their present judgement and practise a binding law for the future but to make continuall professions upon all occasions of altering But let us consider what may be the reasons of such a passionate desire that this principle were enacted in all Churches I conceive these following 1. That others changing and altering as well as you the imputation of inconstancy and lightnesse might not stick upon you 2. That so you might gaiâ—… more to your way and Church by possessing them with this principle having this advantage to worke upon and this engine to draw the people with There is nothing you have concluded on but you are free and at choice still to take what seemes most probable to you whereas if men be set downe and resolved they are not so apt to change 3. That so you might not as you pretend block up the way to further light but keep alive that principle of New light and New truths and that men must not content themselves with old truths and the old light but they must seeke out after New light whereas establishment and setling of points upon serious debates and disputes both in points of doctrine with the fundamentals and substantials of discipline as the truths of God and the way for men to walke in upon such Scriptures and reasons will shut out such search as you conceive but this is a mistake to imagine that if any evident light from Scripture should come in afterwards especially considering that reformed Churches in their confessions and Articles hold that particular Churches may erre and may receive increase of knowledge and for matters of Discipline declare particularly that in the accessaries accidentals circumstantials Churches have liberty to change upon inconveniences and different occasions that may arise that they are ever the further off from it But this principle of irresolution and uncertainty in matters of Religion upon the ground of New light and New truths as it is commonly laid downe and drunke in now by men of the Church-way makes men unsatisfied restlesse doubtfull in their present practise and upon searching when they can find none the Devill and their own corruptions will make some and brings them old errors for New truths and men being possest by some that principles are to be new studied and that there are New truths and New light never known before Satan is not wanting to raise up one or other to vent errors under those notions as we see at this day in the Antinomians and the Anabaptists their great argument wherby they take so many being that of New light and New truths which God hath revealed in these times 4. I hope this principle so rooted in you and your frailty in the former way of conformity may be a reserve for you to come off from Independencie to Presbyterie upon the debates of the Assembly and from your Church-way to the way of the reformed Churches which I heartily pray may be the fruit of this principle so openly and constantly profest and am not wholly out of hope especially of some of you Thirdly We are able to hold forth this true and just Apologie unto the world That in the
also that the rules which we gave up our judgements unto to judge those we received in amongst us by were of that latitude as would take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other at all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by We tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with us or adverse unto us And Churches made up of such we were sure no Protestant could but approve of as touching the members of it to be a true Church with which communion might be held And having answered generally I come now to the particulars brought to make this third principle good and shall shew how little there is in them to make good that they are brought for To your first instance of chusing the better part and to be sure receiving in none for members of Churches but such as all Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull 1. To speake nothing now of that how in Churches there may be a receiving to some of the ordinances and so to be under the care of the Ministers a receiving of others that is there may be members to a part and there are members as to all the ordinances and so according to the first there may be a promiscuous receiving and mixture for which I can give good reasons and instances as in children catechumenists but must not handle at large every point now which your Narration hints aâ—… 2. In your admission of members you chose not the better part nor the safer To goe on the hand of charitie and love is the better part and safer hand which charitie if you looke into the 1 Cor. 13. hopes the best thinkes no evill c. And a man had better receive some of whom there may be some doubt and feare then discourage and refuse any of Christ little ones which both your principle and practise hath done abundantly in New-England and in England But here in your Narration you deale fallaciously in stating the question For the question is not about receiving in none but such as all Churches in the world would acknowledge faithfull but about receiving in all and refusing none whom the Churches had no reason but to acknowledge faithfull For according to your words laid downe and as you would carry it to deceive the Reader with of receiving none but such as all Churches would acknowledge faithfull you might receive in but a few of high forme Christians whom also all the Churches in the world would not as some hold the ballance acknowledge to be faithfull and so you might receive in but a very few And it is evident by your practise that many whom all the Reformed Churches hold fit to be received having a competent knowledge of God Christ and themselves and live free from all scandalous and grosse sins and outwardly practise duties both to God and man even multitudes of these you will not admit nor doe not into your Churches And as to that just and true profession you are able to make That the rules you gave up your judgements unto to judge those you received in amongst you by were of that latitude to take in any member of Christ c. I must tell you this is like some of your just and true professions before namely unjust and untrue this is neither the first nor the last unjust and untrue profession in your Narration and I shall make it good both by your practises by some rules laid down by some of your selves Mr Goodwins letter in answer to Mr Iohn Goodwin grants they require of men to admission into their Churches that they know what belongs to Church-fellowship and doe acknowledge the same and approve thereof with other things of that nature now whether this be a rule of that latitude that will take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other as all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by I appeale to your owne consciences That holy Martyr Bradford with many more not only the least but great starres in the firmament of the Church never knew nor dreamt of what belong'd to your Church-fellowship and I am confident that M. Goodwin M. Bridge my selfe with many others many yeares after wee were members of Christ and conversed together in Cambridge as Saints yet understood not what belonged to this Church-covenant and Church-fellowship and this is such a rule that multitudes of the godly in this kingdome carry not in their bosomes to judge others by nor would not themselves be judged by nor never heard of such things till your times And if your rules were of such a latitude as would take in any members of Christ the meanest whence came it to passe that in New-England so many men in whom the godly have presumed to be something of Christ and who are you to judge the contrarie have not yet been admitted and amongst many other instances that might be given in your owne Churches I will name one Mistris Symonds a modest humble woman many years well reputed of in England of godly Parents wife to a godly Minister who though her husband was received a member of M. Sympsons Church and then chosen the Pastour yet his wife could not be received into the Church along time and whether yet she be I know not I have been told also from one who lived in those parts that after M. Sympson upon rending from M. Bridge had set up a new Church one who was upon his tryall for admission into M. Sympsons Church was openly asked by a prime man who had a hand in that rent what his judgement was of the Brethrens libertie to prophecie and if the man had not been right in that point it might have hazarded his Membership And that the Reader may not be abused nor amused with such kind of passages but that it may appeare what ever here you say you have other rules and require other things of men to communion with you pray satisfie us What was the reason and what is the matter that when M. Iohn Goodwin fell to your principles and way so many godly persons of his owne Parish could not be received in by him as Church-members nor accounted so without yeelding to some rules and conditions which they being members of Christ and some of them nâ—…ne of the meanest could not condescend unto As to that you say You tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with you or adverse unto you I appeale to your consciences if my selfe or some others whom you have accounted godly should have declared their opinions adverse to your Church-covenant and other of your Church principles and yet being in Holland should have desired for the time to have been
other men I briefly suggest these following things to you and the Reader 1. That by your owne concession set formes of prayer are not unlawfull because they be set and framed before hand and not conceived suddenly wherein you grant that the publicke prayers in the Assemblies may be premeditated framed and studied before hand as well as Sermons which concession takes off one of the strongest Arguments used against set-formes of prayer 2. I answer it is not against the fruites of Christs ascension into Heaven and of giving gifts unto men for the Ministery that they doe not alwayes in all their prayers exercise their own gifts of invention and composall of prayer for so the using of the Lords prayer should be unlawfull at any time for the Ministers which is no prayer framed out of their owne meditations and studie and their owne gifts 3. I answer there is a great dissimilitude in many respects betweene Sermons and prayers so that it will not hold though Sermons ought to be framed alwaies out of our owne gifts that therefore prayers alwayes should be And this I will demonstrate in a Discourse of the lawfulnesse of using set-formes of prayer composed by others 4. It is not against the fruit of Christs ascension nor the gifts given then for Ministers in some instructions and teachings of the people to make use of some thing sometimes in publike either doctrinall or practicall not framed out of their owne gifts but by others As suppose the reading in the Congregation to the people often some confession of faith or some exhortation about maine things of use to them having still the free use of their giftsto preach besides 5. Suppose you five should joyne together out of your owne meditations and studies exercising your owne gifts to frame publicke prayers of maine petitions needfull for the state of all your Churches whether might they be used by you in your publick Assemblies 6. Whether each of you by your selves framing upon meditation and studie a set-forme of prayer may not use that often in your Assemblies without sinne having also your liberty to adde conceived prayers at the same time But to put all out of question about the second instance I judge that set formes of prayer prescribed taken in both senses that is neither made nor framed out of the gifts of the persons who use them nor left at liberty but by publike consent agreed upon to be used are not unlawfull to be practised but the Scriptures give us examples for such prayers as in 2 Chron. 29. 30. Moreover Hezekiah the King and the Princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David and of Asaph the Seer and they sang praises with gladnesse and they bowed their heads and worshipped And therefore the use of set formes of prayer framed and composed by others and prescribed having example in Scripture as well as conceived are no additament nor superaddition but the reformed Churches in practising both practise most safely according to Scripture patternes and your Churches using only one sort and not the other leave to follow examples recorded in Scripture and we may more justly cast upon you the taking away from Scripture taking away being a like branded by Scripture as adding But you doe unjustly cast upon the reformed Churches adding to the word the Scriptures holding out examples for both And for the further clearing your mistakes in this great ordinance of publike prayer I shall only adde this all that God hath commanded either in the old Testament or new about publike prayer is that prayers be made in the publike Assemblies and that those prayers be of petitions for their matter and kind lawfull according unto the will of God directed unto God alone in the Name of Christ with humility fervency faith and such like but that God hath required that as oft as Ministers pray they must put up prayers framed by their own meditations and studies out of their own gifts and that the words and phrases must be various and diversified or else their prayers are not lawfull there is never such a sillable to proove it in the Scripture But we have examples of both namely set and conceived and Gods servants used both indifferently and we may use both according as we see occasion and as we find may make most for edification and Gods glory And I desire you in your Reply to this Answer to give any instance to the contrary and I shall thanke you for I seek truth and peace and not victory nor contention And let me mind you whilst you goe about in this instance to cleare your selves of additaments you are in this and other instances guilty of taking away from the Word falling short as in other things practising above what is written besides your different way of practising in some things So likewise for the government and discipline in the Churches however the practise of the reformed Churches is in greater matters to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbytery of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government yet so as in their judgments they allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction to be exercised by the Elders thereof within it selfe Yea and our owne Mr Cartwright holy Baynes and other old Non-conformists place the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church with the consent of the Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed they doe subject them to such Presbyteriall and Provinciall Assemblies as the proper refuge for appeales and for compounding of differences amongst Churches which combination of Churches others of them therefore call Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised And withall we could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one City at first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their own Elders that also preached to them for that in every City where they came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination we did not imagine We found also those non-conformists that wrote against the Episcopall government in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopall government over many Churches brought from the instances of the multitude of believers at Ierusalem and other places and Cities mentioned in the new Testament to assert that it would not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts and elsewhere were yet so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times We found it also granted by them all
that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord and we judged that all those precepts obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure and all grant it meant of the Pastors and Teachers and other Elders that were set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the holy Ghost as in those like commands Wives obey your own husbands Servants your own Governours to be meant of their severall families respectively We could not therefore but judge it a safe and an allowed way to retaine the government of our severall Congregations for matters of discipline within themselves to be exercised by their own Elders whereof we had for the most part of the time we were abroad three at least in each Congregation whom we were subject to yet not claiming to our selves an independent power in every Congregation to give account or be subject to none others but only a full and entire power compleate within our selves untill we should be challenged to erre grossely such as Corporations enjoy who have the power and priviledge to passe sentence for life and death within themselves and yet are accountable to the State they live in But that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seate of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authority over those Churches they feed and teach not ordinarily by vertue of those fore-mentioned Apostolicall precepts was to us a question and judged to be an additament unto the other which therefore rested on those that allowed us what we practised over and above to make evident and demonstrate and certainely of all other the challenge of all spirituall power from Christ had need have a cleare pattent to shew for it Yea we appeale further unto them that have read books whether untill those later writings of the two Reverend and Learned Divines of Scotland set forth after our returne nor much more then two yeares since and others of no elder date from Holland and one of our own Divines more lately Written with much learning and ingenuity there hath been much settly and directly or with strength insisted on to prove that government and although assert and inculcate it they doe as their opinions yet the full strength and streame of our non-conformists Writings and others are spent rather in arguments against and for the overthrowing the Episcopall government and the corruptions that cleave to our Worship and in maintaining those severall Officers in Churches Which Christ hath instituted in stead thereof in which we fully agree with them then in the proofe of a combined classicall Presbyteriall government as it is authoritatively practised in the most reformed Churches Before I give a full answer to your third and last instance of the government and discipline in the Churches I premise this that in all the differences between you and us in the principles and practises of the visible Church and government of it you give but three instances only wherein you practise more safely then the reformed Churches although you make such a great principle and matter of it in the eleventh page yet there are many things besides these three wherein you practise differently from all reformed Churches as in the way of gathering and constituting Churches in the way of making Ministers in the power you give the people in Church government cum multis alijs why did you in this Narration passe by these Is it not either because you were not willing to tell all you hold and practise the time being not yet come to open all your way and principles which is one of the things I blame you for your reservednesse in keeping back so great a part shewing us only the fairest side of that wherein you differ or else if you had thought fit to have related them you in your own wisedomes questioned whether those other particulars wherein you differ would bare so faire a glosse as of practising most safely and of fastning the odium of additaments so well upon the reformed Churches as these three instances you give And I might here take an occasion to shew further how the reformed Churches practised more safely on both hands then you neither adding not taking away and so I might strongly retort this whole third principle of yours back upon you but that may suffice I have already hinted of it Now for this third and last instance of your walking safely but fastning additaments in government and discipline on the reformed Churches this being laid downe so largely as that it is a third part of your book within a very little beginning in the twelfth page and continuing to the end of the one and twentieth page containing in it many various things I must therefore because of the intermixture of persons and things in this part of your Narration more then in any other going forward and backward up and downe that I may let nothing escape of moment I shall endeavour to draw out the severall ends of these twined threds and entangled discourse and to wind them up upon their severall bottomes by reducing this part of your Narrative to these following heads whereon I may more distinctly fasten my answers both for yours and the Readers better satisfaction 1. You relate what the reformed Churches doe practise and allow as also what our old non-conformists granted and what your selves allow and grant about a Church and the government of it 2. You relate what you disallow and are not satisfied in 3. You couch some arguments and reasons for your own way and practise and against the practise of the reformed Churches 4. You answer a common objection brought against your way by laying down the principles that you hold in such a case as also by relating your practise occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches 5. Upon this answer you make a comparison between the effectualnesse of your way in what you hold and practise and what the Presbyterians hold to reduce Churches and to compose differences in which comparison you make the scales to fall on your side rather Now the Reader must expect here as in other passages of this Narration generall doubtfull darke partiall and reserved relations with mistating the questions which in my answers I shall observe and point at all along To the first of these five heads wherein also are three particulars To the first of these concerning the reformed Churches namely what they practise and allow I answer you should have done well to have instanced their practises what were the greater matters governed in common by the Presbyterie of severall Congregations and what were the lesser matters wherein each particular Congregation was governed by their particular Elders As also what were those cases wherein the reformed
Churches allow particular Congregations such an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders within themselves and wherein not such a particular Narration would have carried in the face of it some ground for the defference of their practise and allowance might have served to have pointed out the differences between your way and theirs But secondly As you relate the way and discipline of the reformed Churches it sounds somewhat harsh and strange that their practise should be one way and their judgements another their practise to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbyterie of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government and yet in their judgements to allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation and entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within it selfe Doe they practise one way and allow another way or doe they hold both wayes the wayes of God or what is it you meane in this Narration of those Churches or can it be meant in the same sense and acception to practise one thing and yet allow another or will you make the lesser matters practised in their particular Churches by their own Elders to be the same with some cases wherein they allow particular Congregations an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves Now the latter namely in some cases cannot be meant for then this last part is no more then the first neither can your words of an entire compleate power of jurisdiction in the particular Congregations be meant of smaller matters but of the greatest matters in some cases You shall doe well in your reply to english these lines about the difference of the reformed Churches practises in greater matters and their different judgements in some cases and shew us in what sense they meane it and whether it can be properly and truly alledged for your case of entire and compleate power in your Congregations Thirdly This which you here relate of the reformed Churches practise and allowance is fallaciously set downe and for your own advantage meerely to make out this third principle that you still chose to practise safely namely what the reformed Churches allowed and acknowledged warrantable onely they superadded Presbyteriall combinations whereas the reformed Churches doe not as you well know in the case and question controverted between them and you allow particular Congregations in a Kingdome and nation conceiving the reformed Religion to have an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves what may be in some of their books in extraordinary or speciall cases where there is but one particular Congregation in a Countrey or the like that is nothing to the point in hand it being laid for a common ground by them all that every particular Church in a Nation or Kingdom is not to be left to it selfe but that there is a necessity of a common nationall government to preserve all the Churches in unity and peace And to cleare the reformed Churches of France Holland Scotland from what you say they allow I doe not find in their books of discipline and platformes of Church government by which we must judge of their judgements nor in their practises that they doe allow an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders of every Congregation alone either in the making or ordaining of Ministers or in deposing their Ministers or in drawing up a forme of doctrine worship and discipline for themselves they allow power of admonition suspension from the Lords Supper and of taking up lesser differences by the particular Eldership and if I forget not the Churches of France only practise excommunication by the Elders in particular Congregations without carrying it at first higher but then if we consider that in those Churches of France their Elderships goe upon certaine fixed rules in there excommunications laid down in their books of discipline who if they proceed otherwise are liable to censure themselves and their being appeales to Synods and Assemblies and all being carried in reference and dependance to Assemblies the case is very different now if the Churches of your way and communion in old England and in New would yeeld to have a government fixt and setled by Synods and Assemblies establisht also by the Magistrates upon which Rules and Orders they should proceed in the way of making Ministers and that such errors in doctrine and such evill manners ought to be the subject of excommunication and then agree upon appeales to Synods and Assemblies then there would be lesse dangâ—…r in such an entire and compleate power in particular Congregations To the second particular under this first head namely what some of the old non-conformists grant placing the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed subjâ—…cting them to Presbytâ—…riall and Provinciall Assemblies and that it could not be infallibly prooved that any of the Churches recorded in the new Testament were so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregatïon And that both the Ministers of the reformed Churches and our non-conformists all granted that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord I answer as followes For Mr Cartwright you not quoting which of his books you have reference to and so not knowing which to turne to to find out what you assert of him I shall not deny it but as for Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall which is the only booke I ever heard of wherein he handles these points he doth in the third question give the Ecclesiasticall power and the exercise of it to a united multitude of Presbyters in which booke howsoever as intending his booke against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to whom all Presbyters and Churches stand in subjection and subordination he pleads against them for the power of the particular Elders in the severall Congregations yet as against the reformed Churches practise namely of a Presbyteriall Church consisting of many particular Congregations and ruled by the Elders of severall Congregations combined he pleadeth not but expressely in answer made to those two objections from the Churches and Elders where there is a co-ordination and a communiâ—…y in government as in the Low Countries and at Géneva he grants the thing contended for against your Congregationall way even before miscarrying and shewes thâ—… great difference between the Diocesan government and the Presbyteriall in severall particulars and answers your objections which you commonly make of a forraigne extrinsicall power And for your better satisfaction reade and compare together the passages in these pages of Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall page 21 page 11. What is meant by a Diocesan Church and in the 12th page two first conclusions agreed in and in the 16th page And for the non-conformists in their writings against the Episcopall government and Diocesan Churches though they put the Bishops their adversaries all they could to it to make them proove
put it in every Citie which we affirme not nor need not to carry the cause against you for if we can prove it in some Cities or in any Cities that the number of Converts did arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations then we prove the Scripture holds out a Presbyteriall Classicall Church and overthrow your grand principle about a particular Church And Reader observe the fallacie of these Apologists how in the manner of their expression and as they propound it though the thing may be true yet they alter quite the state of the Question For though in every Citie where the Apostles came you could not imagine the number of Converts should be so great nor we neither yet in some Cities you might have well imagined it as in Ierusalem and Rome But Brethren why will you who are Schollers and without question weighed well all your words and manner of expressions having so many heads in the framing this Apologie deale thus with the Reader in a Narration speake truly though you did not imagine the number of Converts were so many in every City yet did not you imagine the number might be so great in some Cities as in Ierusalem and if still you will not imagine it for the helping of your imagination consider whether you have not more reason if not infallible and necessary yet probable and rationall to imagine the Church of Hiâ—…rusalem consisting of so many thousands of people and having so many Ministers to preach unto them as 12. Apostles besides the seventy Disciples and they meeting in so many distinct houses and not having the power and command of any publicke large place or liberty through those times to fit it for such multitudes to heare the word joyne in prayer and Sacraments should have severall and sundry Congregations rather then to imagine all those should make but one standing Congregation to meet in one place and roome 2. It is stated otherwise carried higher then need be granted and that in all your expressions of it for the Scriptures may hold forth a combination of the Elders of many Churches for government and yet not be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles It may be allowed and agreeable to the word have a jus divinum permissivum upon generall rules of the word and according to the rules of the law of nature and of Prudence yea and may have some examples of it and yet not amount to a divine Institution many who hold the thing will not in those phrases owne it 2. These Elders of many Congregations may have a power of Government in common over all and yet not be the first seat of Church-power for it is not denied but some particular Congregations having a competent number of Presbyters both have and may exercise Church-power before any such combination is or can be 3. These Elders combined may have Church-power to rule these Congregations so combined and yet not have a compleate and entire seat of Church-power but a power liable to appeales unto Synods and generall Assemblies The question betweene you and us is whether Classes or Presbyteries have power in Ecclesiasticall matters as Ordination Excommunication c. within the number of Congregations so combined or may by warrant from the word exercise any power in Church matters but in their owne particular Congregations the question is not whether it be the Institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power As you state it you strangely mistate the question to lay it downe in these words That the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first seat of Church-power over each Congregation so combined whereas the opinion of the Reformed Churches is quite contrary not holding Classes and Synods to be the first subject of Church-power from whence it is consequently derived and conferred upon particular Churches but that particular congregations having power in themselves and amongst themselves equall power doe in Classes and Synods conferre and execute in common their owne power even as those who are colleagues and equall members of some politicall societie 4. The power which particular officers and Presbyters of combined congregations may have over particular members of those Churches they teach not ordinarily doth not amount to the challenging and assuming an authority over those Churches they feed and teach not your expression is a mistake it is not an assuming a power and authority by some over other Churches but it is a power of the whole and of themselvs too even those particular Churches in their officers over particular members as in the Parliament no member hath power over another more then another over him but the whol hath power over all the particulars for the clearing of which the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland speake fully in their Reformation of Church government in Scotland cleared page 24 25. And for the close of this second head wherein you stand upon what you are not satisfied in but disallow if you would impartially consider that the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles doe as well hold out grounds yea and more indubitable as I shall make evident in a particular Tractate of the visible Church that the first particular Churches planted by the Apostles consisted of more Congregations and distinct meeting places then of one only Congregation you will acknowledge that where there are many Presbyters to feed and rule and many more Christians living in a vicinity then can meet in one place it is not the most safe and allowed way to retaine the government of each Congregation thus within themselves neither that it is an additament in the reformed Churches to practise so but rather an additament on their part who living in a City where the number of beleevers are so numerous as to make many meeting places there to make these places and persons such distinct Churches as to manage all things each one within themselves and not to grow into one for government And I am so farre versed in these controversies that I challenge you five to give me an example of any City where it is probable the multitude of beleevers were so numerous as to make many meeting places that ever they were governed and ruled but in common or ever called Churches but Church still called the Church of Corinth and the Church of Ierusalem I foresee only one instance that can be probably alledged that in Rom. 16. 1. of the Church which is at Cenchrea which Cenchrea was a part of Corinth and neare to Corinth yet named a Church as well as the Church of Corinth but the insufficiencie of that ground I shall at large shew in that Tractate of the visible Church which Primitive practise hath so farre wrought with some of the reformed Churches as those of Holland that in great Cities where the number of their people
though as comming out in such a juncture of time wherein the strife is betweene Presbyteriall government and Independent for preeminence and comming from so many heads laid together it cannot be imagined but it should come forth doubly refined and in the most plausible advantagious way and in the best edition that 't is possible such wits and so many could set it out in an Utopia indeed rather then what it can be in common practise this being the third Edition the first that of the Brownists the second of New-England and now this the third yet the Reader may observe into what uncertainties labirinths tediousnesse delayes nay absurdities and contrarieties these principles doe leade them that follow them 1. Whereas in Presbyteriall government each part and every particular is ruled by the whole and in common the lesse by the greater in your way an equall part must take upon them cognizance and call to an account an equall 2. Not only so but suppose two or three Churches fall out and have a difference among themselves and there be but one Church free who yet is offended at the others then one must order two or three the lesse the greater and what a rule is this 3. This principle of submission being voluntary amongst the Churches we may well suppose sometimes the Churches challenged to offend or differ will submit and sometimes they will not or at least not yet and when they know themselves faulty they may pretend many things to put it off and to delay the time which time will be both very prejudiciall to the persons wronged and to the spreading of the heresie and schisme and if by delayes they see they cannot have their ends what if for all their principle of submission they flie of and refuse to yeeld to such a full and open tryall before all commers and shall denie other Churches that power of examining deposing Witnesseâ—… c. upon pretence of conscience that there is no primitive patterne for it as you do deny the power of determination and imposition how will you bring them to it whereas in Presbyteriall government times of meeting being fixt and agreed upon men cannot evade but matters will be quickly heard and remedied 4. As in reason and by experience amongst wise men it is held a vaine course which no publicke company of men will yeeld to but such practises are rather accounted ridiculous to raise such dust and make such 〈◊〉 doe to call others to account to depose Witnesses spending many daies in a judiciarie way and yet have no power to end things to be never the nearer but that Delinquents may doe neverthelesse what they please so it cannot be conceived that the wise God hath ordered in the Government of his Churches such a kind of way for Churches who are of a publike capacitie and have a power as you grant to call Churches thus to an account c. and yet nothing to be done to the offenders Churches offended either have not power to doe thus much as you grant or else they have a greater power namely to bring about the ends which these meanes tend unto namely determination and decision the righting persons injured and the censuring the offending parties But it will be said by you that if the Churches offending take not the counsell and advice of their sister Churches about them but persist in their errour and miscarriage that censure of the sentence of Non-communion will be a sufficient remedie and an effectuall meanes to reduce them and remedie all as well as that of the Presbyterians I will not here enter into comparison between these two but do reserve it to it 's proper place The 5 t and last generall head though besides Excommunicaon there are other things in the Classicall Synodicall way both to preserve and reduce Churches which are not in the Independent way But I answer this is no likely meanes nor way for which I shall give these following reasons 1. One Church may not be able to convince another of their errour or evill much lesse one Church two or three Churches offending and differing 2. The Church offending may stand upon it that what they doe is according to their light it is according to their conscience to hold such an opinion or to doe such a fact as to depose their Minister because he hath no better gifts of preaching and whether may another Church passe the sentence of Non-communion against whole Churches and declare and protest this to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like for opinions or practises that are not against the Churches knowne light For if no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light may be the subject of excommunication in particular persons may they be the subject of Non-communion of whole Churches 3. In reason this seemes not a powerfull meanes or probable way for if this one Church offended shall renounce the Churches challenged to offend they may and will renounce that Church also passing the sentence of Non-communion c. against that and how shall the matter now be healed and remedied 4. That Church or Churches thus sentenced may be care not for the Communion of this Church that cast them off nor of no others as long as they can have communion amongst themselves These kind of Churches that hold such principles of entire compleate power within themselves with that principle of sufficiencie of all gifts and all ordinances within themselvs will goe on in their errours and sinfull practises for all that 5. The Churches renounced and cast out may challenge the Churches casting them out for injuring of them and thereupon both Churches may declare and protest against each other to all other Churches of Christ which will prove as great a rent-difference nay worse then the first and this will produce a great deale of defending and proving for if the Churches on both sides doe declare against one another unto the other Churches which of them now shall be beleeved and what if the Churches protested and declared unto will not upon the Protestations withdraw and renounce all Christian communion with them must they then protest against them also and what the Churches protesting may account matter of Non-communion other Churches declared and protested unto may not judge so so that here will be worse matter of difference and divisions in the Church of God then before and I suppose you would not have those Churches declared and protested unto to condemne the rest sentenced without a hearing especially where there is but one to one or where one may declare and protest against two or three so that then there must be sending for all these Churches and meetings appointed for the Churches protested unto to heare the Churches on both sides and what now if the Churches declared unto upon the hearing the Churches on both sides both censuring and censured shall acquit the Churches condemned
and censured and shall condemne and judge those Churches for renouncing communion as too severe and declaring thus to all other Churches against them what must be done in these cases will these Churches censuring now acknowledge their offence and revoke their sentence of Non-communion or if they will not what must these Churches protested unto doe in this case must not they passe the sentence of Non-communion against them and if they doe so what if these Churches censuring shall also pronounce the heavie sentence of Non-communion even against these Churches protested and declared unto Now that these things and worse may not and will not fall out cannot be denied which things as to the neighbour Churches among themselves will be great occasion of schismes and continuall differences so will they minister matter of great scandall to all other Churches and of tryumph and evill speaking unto enemies all which will be easily prevented and remedied in the Presbyteriall government Sixthly Two or three Churches or more of your Independent way living amongst other Churches as you did in Holland or if your Congregations should be tolerated in England according to your desire you may hold this principle of submission to one another and yet all agree in holding some errours with which errours you may infect many of the members of the Presbyteriall Churches for which you will not question one another what remedie or meanes is there now to reduce your Churches or preserve ours Seventhly Some of your Churches by vertue of this principle that Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches may be ever and anon unjustly calling upon some of the Churches to submit and challenging them first with being offended by them least themselves should be challenged to have offended and so as we speake call whore first and also they who are challenged to offend to be even with them will challenge them againe and what must be done in this case and who shall interpose to determine these differences or may both parties judged thus by each other to be offenders determine against one an other Eightly If Churches must thus submit to trials and examinations these being the acts of whole Churches here will be nothing but trials and examinations and censures one upon another and this instead of a sufficient remedy is like to proove a continuall vexation and molestation to neighbour Churches Ninethly What must be done in case one Church or more take offence unjustly at others and trouble them thus to call them to open examination c. what satisfaction must be given to the Church troubled and examined Tenthly In this principle of submission of Churches suppose that upon a hearing the Church offending will not redresse the grievance or relieve a person injured But goe on and slight communion with other Churches the persons injured in the meane time are debarred from the ordinances and cannot remove their dwellings without manifest ruine of their families how doth this help such persons injured or is a sufficient remedy for wrongfull sentences c. Whereas now in the Presbyteriall way if such a Minister or officers who are the cause of this may be deposed and acts passe against them and others placed in their roomes this will remedy and redresse it And so suppose a Minister of note fall into heresie and errour and draw the most of his people after him so that he cannot be deposed by the Church what good will the non-communion pronounced against this Church by other Churches do for reducing them but now if this Minister may be deposed and an orthodox Minister put in to preach the truth here is a powerfull meanes to reduce and preserve Eleventhly Let me aske you and pray determine it from the Scriptures in case two or three Churches offended doe challenge a Church or Churches offending who yet upon submitting to a hearing will not yeild to the counsell and advice of those Churches who how where after what time and how many meetings and after what manner must this sentence of non-communion be denounced against this Church or Churches whether must it be denounced in and upon the place where they meet to heare and examine or in the meeting place of each of these Churches offended or must these Churches offended meet in one of their meeting places to pronounce it together and who must be the mouth and who by warrant out of the Scriptures hath the power to pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion and how must it be made known unto the offending Churches with other things of this like nature To say no more now this principle of non-communion is so farre from being a sufficient remedy for miscarriages or a reliefe for wrongfull sentences or a powerfull means to reduce a Church or Churches c. that 't is a remedy worse then the disease and if it should be practised would be the ground of many schismes separations mischiefes in the Church of God and that amongst whole Churches so that it were farre better particular persons should suffer wrong or particular persons fall into schisme and be left to their liberty then whole Churches suffer those evils which your principles of non-communion Declarations Protestations would undoubtedly produce as the Reader may judge by what is here written For the second your practise according to this principle occasioned upon an offence that fell out in your Churches I shall shew that as insufficient as your principles and shall animadvert upon the most solemn instances of your practise As for the Introduction into your relation of the scandall and offence I readily assent unto you had you not judged it for the advantage of your selves and way you would upon no other occasion have made it thus publike for you are good at concealing of all your principles and practises but when and where you may further and propagate your way For the story it selfe as it is related by you it is very short and generall neither expressing the Ministers name deposed nor the causes of his deposition nor the first occasion of the differences nor the way the Church took before they deposed him nor the manner how they proceeded nor how long he stood so deposed so that the Reader cannot well tell what to make of it for want of a more full particular relation or how to judge whether your principle of submission of Churches and your practise here laid downe upon it was so proper and so sufficient a remedy and so effectuall a course as you boast of in page 20 21. I must therefore of necessity in reference to the disprooving and weakning of what you would inferre from your sacred principle and supreame law of submission and the more solemne instance of your practise wherewith to vindicate your selves and way in this particular and that it may appeare it was but a
differences what if the messengers of the Churches upon hearing and examining differ among themselves about the differences and offences in the Church â—…ending and about the sentences to be agreed upon to be commended to the offending parties yea and what if the Churches themselves upon returne made by the messengers how they find matters differ also one of the Churches offended being of one mind and the other Church offended of another mind what remedy is there now for miscarriages what reliefe for a person injured or what effectuall and powerfull meanes to reduce a Church or Churches 13. In your sentence of non-communion against Churches and in your Declarations and Protestations to all other Churches of Christ â—…hat they may doe the like what shall become of some innocent godly persons in that Church renounced and protested against must they be renounced communion with what will you doe in the case where some in a Church may be free from the errours and evils which the greater number are guilty of which you account the Church must they be debarred of all Christian communion with the Church offended and all other Churches of Christ protested to you speake nothing here in this case nor take no care for them but wrap up all alike in your sentence of non-communion must the innocent party now in this Church offending separate and withdraw from their own Church and renounce communion too as well as the Church offended what if all their maintenance and livelihood depends in living in that place so that if they withdraw from them they must either live without publike ordinances and communion or else if they come away ruine themselves and families what also if in this Church offending the wife be one of the innocent persons in that Church but the husband of the number of them that persist in their errour and miscarriage the sonne and daughter among the innocent the fathers and mothers among the offenders what must the wives and children renounce communion with their husbands and parents and now either live without the ordinances there or else goe away from their husbands and pareâ—…ts to some other Churches 〈◊〉 And in your drawing up your Declarations and Protestations against those Churches persisting in their errours and miscarriages will you in the grosse doe it or will you signifie and declare all the names of those who remaine obstinate and impenitent in such Churches with the names of those who are free from those errors and offences least you should bring all the Churches of Christ protested unto into sin and a snare pray resolve these cases with many such which by these now hinted you may fore-see will fall out in your principle of non-communion of Churches and Protestations Thirdly For the successe and effectualnes of your practise I answer 1. Supposing the particular instance of your practise according to the principle of submission of Churches that miscarry to have had a good effect as you relate in your two Churches of Arnheim and Rottendam yet it followes not it is a powerfull and effectuall meanes to reduce Churches for a course may prevaile in one and take with one and yet have no rationality to carry it in others for though this Church at Rotterdam did submit to them of Arnheim who were of note for parts quality c. yet it is a question whether these would to some other particular Churches who had challenged them and whether these men would also at all times had there not been something cast in the ballance before hinted 2. Take the best that came of the issue and successe of this agitation between the Church of Arnheim and that of Rotterdam namely that Church which had offended acknowledging their offence in deposing Mr Ward and restoring him to his place againe it was but a slender satisfaction for the losse of his Ministery and maintenance for so long a time and for all the suffering of him and his family If the Church offending had been enjoyned or had ordered themselves to have paid him the profits of his place or to have given him a good summe of money on their fast day this had been some reliefe for a wrongfull sentence and a person injured thereby and might have been a meanes to have preserved them from doing the like for time to come but for a Minister and his family to be so long in a sad condition without all maintenance in a strange Land and in the issue for them who did this to acknowledge only their sinfull aberration and the Minister thus suffering to acknowledge his sin too and both of them to be humbled for it alike here was a poore remedy â—…ay as you relate it your selves it is very unjust and injurious for in some passages of your Narration you acknowledge the fault on the Churches side as in page 16. and in page â—…0 and that Mr Ward was wronged and yet they were both equally ordered to a publike confession of sin and solemne fasting the Delinquent and the Innocent alike deale with is this the fruit of your principle of submission of Churches and non-communion is this the reall evidence and demonstration of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such a case and was this the issue of all that sending to and solemne assembly and the agitation of so many dayes publike hearing by deposition of witnesses so largely and formally related in page 20 21 I wonder wise men as you pretend to be should not see into the weaknesse and folly of your own practise in this case but tell such a story so to shame your selves you should never have troubled your selves to have come so many dutch miles not the Church at Rotterdam nor made so great adoe for many dayes of deposing witnesses c. as your selves relate in page 20 21. to have put together the Innocent and Delinquents And let me here put you this dilemma either Mr Ward was unjustly deposed from his Ministery both materially and formally upon unsufficient causes as the matter for such a censure and for the way and manner of it as being too suddaine before admonition and before fasting and prayer preceding c. 〈◊〉 was justly deposed by the Church if unjustly in both these respects as your Narration implies page 16. why was Mr. Ward put upon acknowledging his sin to the Church and put in the same condition with them who had dealt so unjustly both materially and formally and whether this was not a meanes to hinder the Churches repentance and humiliation for their sin when they should be put but to doe as Mr Ward But if Mr Ward were justly doposed why was the Church then put upon publike acknowledgement and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves before God and man and whether was Mr Bridge as well as the Church injoyned to confesse his sinfull aberration in it in that he did not interpose his authority and interest in the Church nor speake a
complaints and appeals now the Presbyterians in that give the Magistrate a power about the use and abuse of Ecclesiasticall discipline and Ecclesiasticall Causes and businesses yea and definitive to namely a politicall objective consequent power which may be diversly exercised both ordinarily and extraordinarily in a Church constituted and in a good estate and in a Church fallen and corrupted Voetius in his disputations upon that question In whose hands the Ecclesiasticall power is a great Presbyterian in that question grants and gives to the Magistrate a publick judiciall power of judging not onely with the judgement of knowledge but definitive in causes and matters Ecclesiasticall which judgement is consequent not antecedent because the ultimate disquisition is not in that whether that be true but whether they will by publicke Authoritie maintaine and execute that So * Apollonius in his Answer to Vedelius where he strongly pleads for the Presbyterians in that point of Ecclesiasticall power yet gives much to the Magistrate ordinarily in a Church constituted and well reformed in the point of this part of power and extraordinarily in the state of a Church corrupted and greatly disordered when the doctrine is corrupted and the Sacraments contaminated with idolatrous rites and discipline turned into tyrannie and when the Ministerie and all Ecclesiasticall meetings both inferiour and superiour conspire to oppresse the truth of God and to establish tyrannie in the Church in such cases the Magistrate may do many things besides the ordinary way now let me entreate you to consult the books of the Presbyterians and especially Apollonius answer to Vedelius of the severall particulars of the power of Magistrates about the use and abuse of discipline in a constituted Church besides the power given them in extraordinarie cases and in your Reply to this Answer satisfie me what you give more But let me tell you whatever power you five may have found out for the Magistrate which the principles of Presbyteriall government will not suffer them to yeeld some new power may be like that devise of Non-communion of Churches and Protestation to all Churches that they may doe the like yet your Churches may not grant it and so the Magistrates shall be never the nearer the power you give the Magistrate in the 17. and 19. pag. is not yeelded by many of your own Churches whereof you are Ministers A Gentleman a prime member of one of your Churches immediately after the comming forth of your Apologeticall Narration disclaimed and renounced that power of the Magistrate exprest by you in the hearing of a Minister a member of the Assembly who related it to me But what is it wherein you give more to the Magistrates sure there is something you meane and aime at in it if we could find it out suffer me to guesse at it and you shall see though you doe not formally expresse so much yet I have some reason to judge so First Doe you not meane in this phrase the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld that your Church-way consisting all of particular Congregations and not growing into great bodies by combinations and Synods the Magistrates power is greater over you in that he may easily deale with you and dissolve you at pleasure but for a power to grow into so great a body an Ecclesiasticall power as large as the civill so combined this may be formidable and dangerous to the State and too great for the Magistrate hereafter to rectifie this hath been by an active Independent upon discourse of these points suggested to me and how farre one of you hath reasoned thus in the hearing of many against Presbyteriall government and for Congregationall you can remember Or secondly Doe you understand by this phrase that when heresies schismes or strange opinions are broacht in your Churches and you cannot tell what to doe with them nor how to suppresse them nor how to have the persons censured being so powerfull in particular Congregations whereof they are members in such a case you give the civill Magistrate a power to question them for these heresies schismes and to imprison banish c. if they doe not revoke them New-England practising the way of Independencie and not having Classes Synods that have authoritative power to call to account and censure such persons were necessitated to make use of the Magistrates and to give the more to them a power of questioning for doctrines and judging of errors and punishing with imprisonment banishment and they found out a prety fine destinction to deceive themselves with and to salve the contrariety of this practise to some other principles that the Magistrate questioned and punished for these opinions and errors which now for want of Ecclesiasticall discipline and censure they knew not what to doe with not as heresies and such opinions but as breaches of the civill peace and disturbances to the Common-wealth which distinction if the Parliament would have learned from you and proceeded upon they might long agoe have put downe all your Churches and Congregations and justly have dealt with you as the Magistrates in New-England did with Mr Williams and the Antinomians Familists and Anabaptists there and yet have said they punished you not for your consciences nor because of such opinions but because your opinions ways and practises were an occasion of much hurt to the Common-wealth a breach of civill peace a great cause of many people sitting so loose from the Parliament a great hinderance to the Reformation and a ground of much distraction to the publike and of strengthening the enemy whereas the Presbyterians give the power in cases of heresies errors c. that are not remedied in the particular Congregation to Classes Synods Assemblies to question convince judge of censure and to apply spirituall remedies proper to spirituall diseases which I am confident of had such been in New-England in the Presbyteriall way there had never beene so many imprisoned banished for errors nor the Magistrates put upon that distinction Or thirdly Is it that you doe give a power to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things of the ultimate determination of matters purely Ecclesiasticall which the Presbyterians principles doe not as now in matters of doctrine and in matters of scandall and in matters of censures excommunication deposition c. which are brought before and have past in Ecclesiasticall Assemblies to appeale from them to the civill Magistrate and to carry causes from thence to civill Courts to repeale and revoke them Your words and passages about the Magistrates power imply this and I find that many quick sighted men as the Walachrian classis nay a whole Synod after them in their late Letters to the Assembly apprehend you so and therefore I may upon good grounds judge besides the two former that you aime at this third in saying you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians
Concerning which question it being a point that I have not much studied I shall not declare my judgement in it But in the Church of Israel it seemes that in the things of Jehovah the last judgement did belong to the chiefe Ecclesiasticall Assembly which sate at Ierusalem Deut. 17. 8 9 10 11 12 13 verses as Iunius in his Analisis illustrates that place and the arguments brought by Apollonius in this point with his answers to Vedelius arguments have a great deale of strength in them and I entreate you in your Reply if you will formally owne the giving of this power to the Magistrate that you will answer that second chapter of Apollonius But to draw toward a conclusion of the comparison of the effectualnesse between the two wayes supposing all you say of Submission Non-communion Protestation were true as also that you did give more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterian and that in spirituall matters in cases of difference injuries c. you would from the Church have recourse to the Magistrate and submit to his judgement and that you did allow and would stand to the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet notwithstanding you have determined it that without all controversie your way of Church proceeding will be every way as effectuall as the other can be supposed to be yet I must tell you it falls farre short of the Presbyterian way both in preventing and remedying sins errors offences and in promoting knowledge godlinesse and peace in the Churches For suppose non-communion of Churches were a way of Christ and a remedie the contrary to which I have at large showne yet you must confesse 't is but a lower remedy not an authoritative powererfull dreadfull remedie and meanes like that of excommunication which is the highest and greatest censure in the Church the Churches thunderbolt and Anathema a remedy and last meanes which recovers a sinner when all others will not as admonition suspension deposition and so when non-communion and Protestation will not In the Scriptures are laid downe many eminent fruits and effects of excommunication in the people of God which are not of any censure else and I might fill a book with the ends benefits and fruits of this censure laid down by Divines in their Tractates and common places of Ecclesiasticall discipline and excommunication but I will name only that of the Professors of Leyden Excommunication is the last remedie and the sharpest for the subduing of the flesh in a man and for the quickning of the spirit and the most efficacious example least the sound part should be corrupted But against them who persevere in their contumacie and impenitencie 't is the only meanes to free the house of God of leaven and the Church of Christ from scandals and so to vindicate the Word and Sacraments from prophanation and the Name of God from the blaspheming of them without Now pray shew us in the Scripture any where the excellent fruits benefits ends of non-communion of Churches and Protestation against them as we can of excommunication in 1 Cor. 5. 5. 2 Cor. 2. 6 7 8 9 10. 2 Thess. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 1. 20. And then for that other remedie of the Magistrates power added to non-communion to eeke out wherein non-communion may be defective to excommunication and for that purpose you say you give more to the Magistrates power that so what you faile and come short in Ecclesiasticall power you may make it up in giving more civill power in Ecclesiasticall causes the result of which must needs be this that though in your Church-way you have not so much Ecclesiasticall authoritative power for miscarriages and for reducing Churches that fall into heresie and schisme yet you give more civill power and allow the Magistrate more to interpose for helping and reducing so that lesse Ecclesiasticall power and authority with a large civill power to back it will be every way as effectuall as much Ecclesiasticall authority with a small civill power But of this I shall shew you your mistake because the question is of Church matters and matters of conscience and the inward man and of the Kingdom of Christ Now the remedies and meanes appointed for these are spirituall and Ecclesiasticall namely spirituall punishments Christ saith my Kingdom is not of this world and the Apostle 2 Cor. 10. 3 4 5. The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mighty through God to the pulling downe of strong holds by which the spirit and the inward man even every thought is subjected to the obedience of Christ spirituall remedies and meanes must be used in the Kingdome of Christ and by them Christ doth his worke and hence in Ecclesiasticall discipline and those scandalls in the Church which is the point in hand punishments in the body or in the purse c. which can be by the power of the Magistrate have no place at all neither can such meanes which are of a different kind from the spirituall Kingdome of Christ produce those effects which belong to that heavenly Kingdome 'T is out of the sphere of the activity of the politicall Magistrate to subdue the inward man or to inflict spirituall punishment upon the consciences And there is nothing more common in the writings of the most learned and orthodox Divines then to shew that the civill power and government of the Magistrate and the Ecclesiasticall government of the Church are toto genere disjoyned and thereupon the power of the Magistrate by which he deales with the corrupt manners and disorders of his people is in the nature and specificall reason distinct from Ecclesiasticall discipline For the power of the Magistrate by which he punishes sin doth not subserve to the Kingdome of Christ the Mediator that he may apply efficaciously to the elect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Propheticall and Priestly office of Christ he doth not affect the inward man and conscience with spirituall punishment neither is this instituted of God and sanctified as the meanes for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ. Hence also by Divines the manifold difference between the censure of excommunication and the punishment of the Magistrate is observed Zanchius doth accurately shew the difference between them The cause of excommunication is not the punishment of sinne but the salvation of the sinner and the edification of the Church and the glory of God but the scope of the civill Magistrate and his office is that he should punish the sinne it selfe neither dâ—…th it looke to the salvation or damnation of the offender whereupon although the sinner repent yet he doth not spare but punisheth according to his office But the Church according to Christs doctrine doth not strike with the spirituall sword unlesse he be impenitent neither is this done for death but for salvation
only and the highest powers can they alwayes heare or attend unto through the many great businesses of State affaires all the differences scandals schismes that both in particular Churches and betweene Churches will fall out in a Kingdome or Nation in this way of non-communion and protestation against one another especially in Independent Churches where people make Churches and Ministers in that way they doe and have no fixed rules nor certaine way I warrant the supreame Magistrate and higher Powers Kings and Parliaments shall have something to doe to back the sentence of non-communion and to heare all causes and differences But if you understand the inferiors also Majors Bailiffs c. I represent it to you what fit judges most of them are to judge and determine of such difficult Ecclesiasticall causes in heresies schismes scandals c. which fall out amongst the Ministers of Churches and between Churches themselves Againe If you understand the Magistrate indefinitely and obsolutely any Magistrate though Heathen Popish Arrian as Mr Robinson doth in his Apologie and I find it in your manuscripts and principles that you take it so judge then in your selves if the Church hath not remedies among themselves how fit are they who understand not Christian religion nor the doctrines according to godlinesse to judge of the great differences between Churches and to assist the sentence of non-communion against Churches if the Apostle Paul reproved the Corinthians so in 1 Cor. 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. for cariying matters from the Church even the smallest matters the things that pertained to this life unto unbeleevers how would he blame the carrying of things spirituall and Ecclesiasticall unto Heathen from the Ministers of the Church or doe you understand that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature to appeale unto c. then there must be certaine Laws and rules agreed upon as for particular Churches so between the Churches according to which they must proceed to back the sentence of non-communion and protestation c. which yet you practise not Now the many inconveniences that would come of such Courts you may easily fore-see so that this is not like to be an effectuall remedy 6. What shall be done in case there be no Magistrates at all to take any notice in matters of Religion and Church government but leave Churches to themselves in that as it was with you in Holland there were no Magistrates medled with the government and order of your Churches nor none to have recourse unto or to backe the sentence of Non-communion you being in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authoritie either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced you what shall in this case supply the defect of Excommunication and of an Ecclesiasticall authoritative power Hath not the wisdome of Christ provided remedies in the Church for all the internall necessities of the Church and constituted it a perfect bodie within it selfe 7. Whether can it be rationally and probably thought that in an ordinary way the having recourse unto the Magistrate though orthodox and the submitting to his particular cognizance and examination of such causes with his backing the sentence of Non-communion in Ecclesiasticall causes in cases of sinnes errours differences that arise in Churches should be as effectuall and sufficient a remedie as the way of Classes and Synods and that the Magistrates interposing their authoritie and power of another nature will be as good as the Authoritative Presbyteriall Governement in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now that 't is not probable it should be or that it should serve in stead of Synods and Classes take these probable and rationall grounds 1. All wanton wits and erroneous spirits all your Sectaries and Novelists are rather for this way then for Synods and Classes though most of them would have neither to meddle at all in matters of Religion as the Socinians Anabaptists c. Thus the Arminians were against Classes and Synods and all for the power of Magistrates and it was their chiefe Engine by which in those sad daies of the Netherlands they encreased their partie and came to such a height Sectaries hope that if they can decline the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they sha'l what by flatterie and what by delay through other great businesses of State and what by sophismes and fallacies and what from principles of policie in many States-men and what by friends c. effect that which they have no hopes at all by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they know the Presbyteries and Synods are able to discover their fallacies answer their arguments will mind those businesses wholly are not to be wrought upon by State principles c. Now if in experience and reason this way were as powerfull to reduce a Church or Churches from schisme and heresie they would never be so much for this way rather then Presbyterie 2. Naturall reason dictates that they are best able and fittest to judge and resolve of things who doe above others give themselves to the studie and profession of those things as Physitians can best judge of wholesome meats and diseases and Lawyers of the lawes and differences arising in them a Counsell of Warre of difficult cases and points in warre And therefore in things that belong to the spirituall good of the soule and the Church the Ministers of the Church are most likely to resolve and to remedie things Can it ordinarily be expected that the Magistrate should in matter of doctrine and opinion in matters of schisme and in matters of worthinesse and abilities of Ministers and in many cases that arise be able to judge and determine matters as the Ministers and Pastours of the Church 3. Those who have most time and leisure to attend a worke and businesse to sift into it to heare all that can be said and can mind it they being able and understanding are likeliest to determine best and bring things to a good end we see in experience that able and honest men through multitudes of businesse delay long slubber over businesses and cannot doe things so effectually as they ought and seldome prove good Arbitratours in difficult intricate cases Now Magistrates through many great and necessarie businesses of State having large dominions cannot so well attend as the Classes and Synods to heare and examine all the differences scandals schismes c. that doe and may arise both in Churches and betweene Churches especially as would fall out in the Independent way and particularly in this way of submission Non-communion and mutuall Protestation but matters would be delayed and neglected or escape wholly or be hudled up 4. To these I might adde as followes that the Magistrate through his just greatnesse would not know the spirits and dispositions of Ministers people nor of other matters so well as the Ministers who live among them and converse with one another frequently neither would there be that easinesse of accesse to the Magistrates and great persons as
so there is need of Synods for the governing of the Church and for the preventing of herâ—…fies In a word all things are loose in independent Government every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their owne eyes if they like not any Church whereof they are members they may goe to another nay a few in a Church disliking that Church may goe make a Church themselves and make Ministers and hold what they will as Mr Sympson did with some few more and since some have rent from Mr Sympsons Church as he from Mr Bridge The rules they goe by are loose nothing being fixed nor certaine among them and there can be no setlednesse of mind nor consistence of Principles in that way simple and well meaning people according to their Principles must be drawn till they come to that to hold that there are no true Churches nor Ministers at all yet upon the earth which principle begins to take and spread already amongst many Independents In a word that Liberty and loosenesse which is from first to last in Independent Government holding no authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation to remedie or prevent any matter and that which is in the particular Congregation being on many Grounds and Principles of theirs so slight and weake as the only subject of Excommunication being no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. as that two or three Saints or now of late six or seven may with-draw from Churches defective and impure and make Churches and chuse all officers c. with other like so that what need they care then for that Church of which they are members though cast out seeing they can make new and have all to their owne minde be chiefe there is a dangerous temptation even to sober men to make them presume to broach that practise that which else they would never have done But in the Order and Government of the Reformed Churches there is consistence unitie and strength as is evident by a hundred yeares visible experience of Gods blessing from heaven upon them there is also a certainty and fixednesse of rules agreed on both for particular congregations for Classes and Synods there is an awing and preserving of officers and people in their bounds and keeping them from running out to errours c. there being no man be he never so able or subtill that can escape calling to account and censure Magistrates and Ministers have their power in the Church without usurpation and confusion and to conclude in the words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were Magistrates and civill power acquainted with this order and government of the Church they would finde their authoritie increased their worke more easie and their places more comfortable thereby And now having given an answer to that part of your Apologie under that instance of the government and discipline of the Churches by speaking fully of those five heads unto which I referre all your discourse about the government and discipline of the Churches beginning in pag. 12. and ending in the 21. I will for a close speake something to some of your passages contained in this part of your Narration which could not so well be taken in nor so properly animadverted upon under those five heads without the Readers being much confounded and entangled 1. To that passage p. 14. We had for the most part of the time we were abroad three Elders at least in each congregation whom we were subject to I aske if the Churches were subject to the Elders you many times having but three and sometimes but two nay one Elder the government of your Churches then was either Monarchicall Government or Oligarchicall at best And if the Churches were subject to the Elders who were the Elders subject to the Elders then were under no subjection but if the Churches were subject to the Elders and not the Elders to the Churches riddle me what is the meaning of all those phrases the Church still did so and so not the Elders the Church at Roterdam deposed M. Ward and not M. Bridge and an Elder or two and so M. Nye and M. Goodwin the Ministers were sent by the Church and that Church which had offended confessed their sin and restored their Minister to his place againe which sure was not M. Bridge and a lay-Elder or two 2. To those passages of Churches offended calling to an account Churches offending proceeding to full and open tryals and examinations to Iudiciarie charges and deposition of witnesses openly before all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where Authority about them enjoyns it and of a particular Church being censurable by neighbour Churches about them I desire to put this disjunctive proposition Either this power of calling to an account examining deposing witnesses censuring them c. are acts of ruling and government and in the Churches challenged acts of subjection or they are not if you grant they be acts of rule and government then there is an authoritative power which Churches have out of their Churches and you grant it in such acts at least though not in that of excommunication But whether if it be so in these that of excommunication will not follow let it be considered for either the censure of excommunication is not founded upon the common grounds on which callings to account and some censures are or else there is some proper peculiar grounds in the nature of that ordinance or in the Scripture forbidding that though allowing others neither of which will be found to have a foundation in Scripture and if so why then doe you make all this adoe of entire full compleate power within your selves and are against the combination of Churches in Classes and Presbyteries to doe that constantly certainely and presently upon scandals that fall out in a Church which you doe at best but at uncertainties and after a long time when the remedy may come too late a yeare or two afterwards But if you answer these are no acts of government and rule in this Church or Churches but meerely acts of consultation advice perswasion and that when the Churches offended have heard all they only give their counsell and advice and commend it to them but it is in their liberty to doe or not to doe for though they submit to a hearing and open triall by vertue of the principle of submission yet they submitted not to stand to the determination and agreement of that Church or Churches I answer if you meane no more then the bare power of counsell and advice in all this and no power of Authoritative determination and decision this is no more nor you give no more to the Churches offended then to particular Christians who may counsell them in such cases And why then doe you hold out such words and your practise of a full and
open triall and what speake you of roome for complaints and of subjecting to an open triall and review of what can be brought and of being censurable by neighbour Churches c. Whether be not all these the usuall phrases and expressions of acts of power and government can there be so much as triall and examination and judiciary charges and deposition of witnesses without authority much lesse censure can you ever shew it either in civill government in Common-wealth or in Ecclesiasticall in Churches out of Scripture or stories where all these acts were exercised and practised by persons who only had power of counsell and advice and if you cannot how can you make it good but that this must be more then advice and counsell namely authoritative power It is given as a rule by your selves that in matters of a common nature 't is in Ecclesiasticall government as in civill Now if in all civill Assemblies all these acts and practises be acts of authority and government why holds it not so in Ecclesiasticall And further to reason though Churches be sisters and equall each considered by it selfe yet in cases of offence and difference between Churches the Churches complained and appealed unto to whom the rest submit should now be greater and have more power in this thing then the Churches submitting and their acts should be authoritative as in reason 6 or 8 men falling out and choosing and submitting to others to heare the businesse and make an end of it these are now greater and have a power and authority over these quo ad hoc and in these acts and what they doe are acts of power which they must stand unto or suffer the penalty Thirdly You speake more then once upon occasion of this scandall committed in that Church at Rotterdam of Churches as in the plurall number sister Churches to be consulted with before hand and of your Churches mutually and universally acknowledging that principle of submission and how that Church â—…hich with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence and of requiring a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation Now what and where were those other Churches of whom all this is spoke I grant that at Arnheim was one Church that Mr Bridges Church should have consulted with or have submitted to but where were any other Churches I will yeeld the Church at Arnheim might by letters declare their offence but I know not what other Churches did by letters doe the like I grant the Church at Arnheim was a Church of our Nation before whom the offending Church did yeeld a publike hearing but I know of no other I will not question but that the Church at Arnheim and Mr Bridges Church did upon the offence of deposing Mr Ward acknowledge that principle of submission and submit to one another but I doubt no other did then mutually submit for besides the Church at Arnheim offended and Mr Bridges Church offending there was no other Church of your way and communion for the offending Church to consult with or that did write letters or before whom the businesse was heard c. for I suppose and judge Mr Simpsons new Church being at that difference with Mr Bridges Church and Mr Bridge with him Mr Bridges Church should not have consulted with Mr Simpsons before hand and that Mr Bridges Church would not have yeelded the principle of submission to have submitted to a full triall and examination of all proceedings before Mr Simpsons and in case Mr Simpsons Church had sent letters declaring their offence they would have declined it as partiall and as accounting them the parties offending and I never heard that Mr Simpson with some messengers of his Church joyned with the messengers of Arnheim in the triall of that businesse of Mr Ward or sate as Judges c. so that I cannot tell why you use Churches in the plurall number thus all along in that businesse but that the Reader might conceive for your greater authority and esteeme and for the greater solemnity of the action there were more Churches besides that at Arnheim Fourthly For those two Gentlemen who were sent with the Ministers of the Church offended to require an account whether were those Gentlemen Elders of the Church of Arnheim or private members only If they were not Elders why were private members sent before Elders shew us a rule for that and satisfie us how private persons and no officers of the Church should represent the Church but if they were Elders why doe you name them Gentlemen only and not speake of them as officers 5. Whether though you make so sure of it yet it be not to be doubted upon the grounds of reason and light of nature that it is not more brotherly and more suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with but a point of greater authority inequality and usurpation for foure men grant them to be a Church representative to take upon them what those foure members of Arnheim did to a whole Church for so many dayes so fully and judiciarily to proceed as you write in the 21 page then for a whole Presbyterie of Ministers and Elders or a grave Synod to call to an account and heare the offences of two or three in a particular Church and together with that Church representative to decree such censures as publike acknowledgement of their offences or excommunication c. Sixtly I much wonder how you can call the meeting of Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye with two Gentlemen more calling Mr Bridge with the rest of that Church supposed to be delinquents such a solâ—…mne Assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an imprâ—…ssion upon your hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever you have beeâ—… present at Certainely you have either been but at few solemne Assemblies where Christs dreadfull presence hath been or else your phancie was mighty high at that time as to make such a deepe impression upon you of a dreadfull presence as ever you have been at Let me aske Mr Nye what was this Assembly beyond the solemne generall Assembly of Scotland where you were present when the great solemne Covenant of the Kingdomes passed of which you write so highly into England or was it beyond the Assembly of Divines wherein not only two of you are for consultation but all you â—…ive with so many other godly Divines where instead of two Gentlemen assisting then here the Worthies of both Houses Lords and Commons assist nay a Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe where much of the piety learning and wisedome of two Kingdomes are met in one as your selves confesse afterwards in the 27 page I am of the mind there are ordinarily many Assemblies and where you may have been that have a more dreadfull presence of Christ then that had The Church meeting to partake in the Lords Supper cal'd the dreadfull and terrible houre by some of the Fathers
you may call it exile because you did flie out of your owne Country though none persecuted you to shun persecution before it came as foreseeing possibility of danger yet you can in no sence be called poore Exiles for you were rich Exiles who in Holland enjoyed many conveniences and such abundance as to be able some of you to spend 200 or 300. lb. per annum and to doe other expensive acts which for present I forbeare to name And I can produce letters of many conveniencies which you enjoyed there Letters before quoted by me of M. Archers speake so much Poore exiles are such who have no certaine dwelling-place maintenance friends but how they can be called poore Exiles that enioy wives children friends full and liberall maintenance annually liberty of callings with all pleasures and delights as much or rather more then in their owne countrey I see not Suppose some merchants and tradesmen who could not so well nor so much to their advantage follow their callings and drive their trade in their owne countrey should for their better advantage and accomodatons in these kinds goe with their families into another Countrey can these be called Exiles Suppose a Minister who disliking some things here in the present Government to be established or wanting a liberall maintenance or fearing the warre should goe over to Roterdam Hambrough to preach to the company of Merchants there where he shall have better meanes can this Minister be stiled a poore exile Now I leave you and the Readers to make application As for those words Gods bringing you backe againe in these revolutions of the times into your owne land I know God permitted it and ordered it but I well know Satan hastened and furthered it for the dividing of the godly party here and for the obstructing the worke of Reformation and hindering the setling the government of the Church that so in the meane time he might increase his kingdome and bring in a floud of all errours and licentiousnesse upon us and Brethren let me speake sadly to you not out of passion but out of long and serious deliberation it had been good for you and for us that you had continued exiles still and that neither you five nor they of New-England had heard of the revolution of our times and Gods visiting us in mercie till the Church and government had been setled I am confident that things had not then been at that passe now as they are As for that Parenthesis the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie of the Kingdome in a strange Land I will not gaine-say it onely let me mind you of two passages in your Apologie Our selves had no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own land again in peace and safety to our persons and the other when we had least dependencie on this kingdome or so much as hopes ever to abide therin in peace Now take away faith hope endeavors will much cease this I judge should much hinder your praiers and teares for the prosperitie of the land for my part I had much hope of the kingdom when things were at worst and I exprest it both in preaching and conference to many and some can witnesse what I have said to them of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and the rest of that faction and of the revolution of the times God was pleased so to support my spirit that I expected and waited as men doe for the light of the morning when that every day God would arise and doe some great worke and change the times and seasons As for your finding the judgement of many of your godly learned brethren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from yours in some things that was no marvell I wonder you could expect it otherwise being but a few young men of yesterday and going a way by your selves so different from all Reformed Churches But I must tell you you found not onely the judgement of many godly Ministers that desired a generall Reformation but the judgement of them all who were in publike imployment and of any great account to differ from yours not onely in some things but even in your whole Church way how ever that since by your presence and your politick way of working and the strong streame of popular applause running that way some few Ministers uncertaine heady inconstant wanton-witted men are since come off to your way but as for your confidence and open profession that in the things wherein you differed from many of your godly brethren that you professedly judge the Calvinian reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves I answer they may doe so and I know no Church yet so perfect but may stand in need of some further Reformation and the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland grant you so much pag. 7. That they are most willing to heare and learne from the word of God what needeth further to be reformed in the Church of Scotland Now whether your Churches and those of new England be so perfect though not of the first Reformation as to stand in no need of a further Reformation in government I much doubt especially considering that letter lately come from New-England written by M. Parker as also a nother Letter from M. Wilson of Boston and a terrible Lette from a reverend godly Minister there whose name I have been entreated to conceale least it might much prejudice him there but for answer I must tell you I doe professedly judge that in your sence in the things excepted against by you the Reformed Churches particularly that of Scotland need not a further Reformation namely to come to your principles of Democracie Independencie Libertinisme and to keepe all those and their children from admission into the visible Church whom you keepe out and to condemne as unlawfull all set formes of prayer composed by Synods and Assemblies though never so holy and heavenly for matter and frame And as to that that it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of Schisme in you be thought that comming new out of Poperie they might not be fully perfect the first day I answer they never thought so neither were they so fully perfect in Church government the first day but the reformed Churches particularly the French-Churches had many Synods Assemblies and Colloquies where points of government and order have been further debated cleared and Canons added and in the Church of Scotland after doctrine was established they were exercised in conferences and Assemblies about matters of Discipline and Government which is the perfection spoken of here by you above twenty yeares Besides considering that the Reformed Churches both in France Scotland and Holland have heretofore been troubled with the maine of your principles and have heard all the Arguments and reasons for them and against their owne way and that both of old
not what though you doe not leave them as Antichristian Babilonish as false and untrue yet if you leave such Churches because impure defective under bondage not of so good a constitution in this you condemne them and so are guilty of schisme I aske of you if the members of some of your Churches should upon grounds not because you are false Churches and false Ministers but because you are not to pure as some others nor as they could set up a Church as for instance because wicked men are admitted to prayer amongst you or because the ordinance of Hymnes is not yet setled in all your Churches c. forsake and leave your Assemblies and yet should openly professe they doe not condemne your Churches as no Churches but only joyne to Churches of a purer constitution or set up a new Church as Mr Simpson did whether is this a schisme and separation doe you not hold this unlawfull especially this being without your consents nay against them as not being satisfied in the reasons and causes of such a departure Now if it be schisme and separation in some of your members pray free your selves and in your Reply wash your Churches from this offence in withdrawing from ours and answer that axiome that magis minus non variant speciem and what ever you can say for your departing from us to enjoy further degrees of purity or because our Churches are defective in some ordinances c. that your members may for themselves for according to your own confession in Apologie page 30. you differ little from us and the reformed Church yea farre lesse then the Anabaptists or some sort of Brownists doe from you Now then I put this Dilemma to you whether is it schisme in your members or not if it be schisme in them and they may not leave your Churches then it is schisme in you and you may not forsake ours but if it be no schisme in them but they may doe so members may still goe from one pure Church to a purer according to their new light then satisfie me where you will stay and make a stand and what is schisme and separation and whether a great gap and wide dore be not left open for schisme upon schisme and separation upon separation from your Churches to the Brownists and from the Brownists to the Anabaptists and so in infinitum And let me tell you though you who are Schollers have found out these distinctions about our Churches and Ministers whereby you think you salve all and so make account you are not guilty of schisme as the learned Papists having distinctions about Images Worship c. say they worship not the Images but the persons in the Images c. though the people who doe not so well understand nor cannot always remember such distinctions worship the very Images and that with the same worship as they doe God so the people who by your counsell and example had forsaken our Churches they leave our Churches and Ministers as not true they condemne our Churches and Ministers and wonder at those passages in your Apologie page 6. and say they took you otherwise and so they become guilty of schisme and separation without such distinctions though you with distinctions For that title of Independencie affixed unto you as your claime it is well you call it a proud and insolent title had I stiled it so in my Reasons against Independent governement it would have been counted by your side a reviling of the way of God and a casting great reproach upon Christs government but I shall give you and the reader a good account for that title affixed unto the Church-way and communion that you are of and if it be offensive you must blame your selves and your own party and not me This Independencie and Independent government was a name of your own giving and sure I and others might lawfully call the child by the name the father and friends gave it To speak nothing of the name of Independent government given to particular Congregations in many books of the totall Separatists maintaining it formally in those words it will be found in many printed books and manuscripts written by many men of your way and communion namely of the middle way as you call it who owne and call the government of particular Congregations Independant and reason for it under that name Amongst others you shall find it in these books Protestation Protested Mr Davenports Profession of his Faith Sions Prerogative royall A Discourse opening the nature of Episcopacie The Answer from New-England to Mr Herles book against Independencie in Christ upon his Throne and in manuscripts not a few particularly in a manuscript intituled a Treatise about a Church going under one of your names speakes often of Independent power and Independent government Besides Independent government hath been preached for at Margrets Church in Westminster and the City of London in those words so that I wonder how you dare make such a flourish for my part I should never have invented the name neither would it have ever entred into my mind but that it was common in the books manuscripts and mouthes of men of your way And this hath been taken so for granted that not I alone who might more easily have mistaken writ against the government of your Congregations under that name but the learned and reverend Divines of Scotland writ against it under that name using those tearms and phrases often and the learned Divines of Holland particularly Voctius and a learned and ingenious Divine of our own too writ against your government under the title of Independencie whose book containes many passages particularly referring to you the Apologists And so â— Mr Channell who candidly testifies for you even when he would free you from being called Brownists yet saith you be commonly cal'd the Independent Ministers and doth by way of distinction from the reformed Churches call your Congregations Independent But yet further to fasten on you as you are pleased to stile it that proud and insolent title of Independencie however that you disclaime the title here and in other pages 14 21 yet you acknowledge the thing abundantly in the book namely a full and entire power compleat within your selves untill you be challenged to erre grossely and then when you are challenged to erre grossely and upon examination and deposition it is fully proved yet you will not subject to any Authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation this is the only thing in your Apology largely and with any seeming strength insisted upon and for the exemption from that you have found out the device of submission and non-communion and tell us your solemne practise upon it with the successe of it Now what else hath been fastned on you as your claime by them who have writ against your way but this did any of the Divines commended by you or did I in my reasons against your governement
books of others or in counselling and consenting to the printing of them especially some books from out of New-England and particularly of Mr Cottons 3. Neither I nor many other Ministers are not satisfied of the truth of those words That you have not acted for your selves and way which words as here brought in by you must be understood of acting as distinct from preaching and printing that is as you have not published your opinions by preaching so you have not by other wayes and meanes acted for your selves or way as in making friends or in mooving any Parliament men or in consulting together what to doe about your way no alas good men you have kept your houses close and followed your studies hard and seldome gone to Westminster but have left the businesse of Independencie and the Church-way to God wholly leaving him to take care of his own way and cause Brethren how dare you write thus if you have not acted for your selves and way since your returnes into England and improoved your time well too most who know you are much deceived in you and strangely mistaken And suffer me to deale plainely with you I am perswaded that setting aside the Jesuites acting for themselves and way you Five have acted for your selves and way both by your selves and by your instruments both upon the stage and behind the curtaine considering circumstances and laying all things together more then any five men have done in so short a time this 60 yeares and if it be not so whence have come all the swarmes and troopes of Independents in Ministery Armies City Countrey Gentry and amongst the common people of all sorts men women servants children have not you five had the greatest influence to cause this who have wrought so many Ministers Gentlemen and people to your way can it be in Reason thought all this is come about without your acting for your selves and way is the peoples golden Calfe of Independencie and Democracie come out of it selfe without Aarons making it And whether you five have not acted for your selves way since this Parliament I desire you to answer these questions and then according to the truth of those questions let your consciences judge of the truth of these words 1. Whether came not you over into England and left your Churches in Holland with their leave or rather being sent as Messengers to negotiate for your way and for a Toleration of some Churches to enjoy Independent government that is a full entire compleate power within your selves 2. When you were come over did you not in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting consult together and debate about a Petition and was there not one drawne to be presented to the House of Commons for a Toleration of some Congregations to enjoy a Congregationall government 3. Have you not beene all along from your first comming over into England to the writing of this present Apologie intent and watchfull upon every thing in agitation or about to passe in matters of Religion that might make though but remotely for Presbyteriall government and might though but by a remote consequence and at a distance touch upon or prejudice your Church way As for instance about the time of passing a Bill in the House of Commons against Episcopacy and of consultation and debate what should be in the interim till another Government could be setled were not you zealous and active against that advice and counsell of a certaine number of grave Ministers in each County to be substituted for the time out of your feare of having but a shadow of Presbyterian governement though but pro tempore and how much you worked in that with some of place and what the issue of that was you may remember So upon thoughts and consultations since this warre of entring into a Covenant and some Ministers being advised with whether did not some of you stand for a clause to be inserted in the Covenant for liberty to tender consciences and for want of such a clause that being opposed by some how long it was layed aside c. I desire you to remember Againe about the beginning of the Assembly in the review and examination of of some of the Articles of Religion and in the propounding but some orders to have been agreed on about the way of managing the Disputes and Debates in the Assembly how tender have you been of any thing tending but to Presbytery and that might though but indirectly reflect upon any of your Principles 4. Have not some of you though may be not all acted for your selves and way by constant Church meetings on the Lords day in private houses preaching the word and administring the Sacraments even in the times of the publike Assemblies where besides your own Church members have resorted to your meetings many other persons some members of Churches in New-England and others belonging to the Church of England and whereas Mr Simpson was a Minister of a Church at Rotterdam which Church is still there hath not Mr Simpson since his returne well acted for himselfe and his way in getting such a rich and numerous Church consisting of so many Gentlemen and Gentlewomen rich Citizens rich Virgins c. and hath not Mr Goodwin acted for himself and way and at least in the least attempted to encrease a party when besides those of his Church at Arnheim that came over from thence there are others here in London have gone to his Church meetings and there are some if not actually members the ceremony may be being forborne that it may be said he hath added none to his Church yet are Competentes Candidati Probationers members in fieri with their faces to Zion and reputed members actually by them of nearest Relations and Co-habitations as I am credibly enformed but must name none to prevent differences in neere Relations 5. Have not some of you if not all of you acted for your selves and way in actually speaking and moving some Parliament men to stand for you and for a Toleration of your Church way and have you not been answered shew us your grounds let us know what you hold and what you would have and then you shall see that shall be done which is sitting and out of zeale of acting for your selves and way have not some of you suggested in private to Parliament men the prejudice of their Parliamentary power if they should admit of the Government of the Church of Scotland pleading also for a necessity of a Toleration and in particular I aske Mr Nye if he remember no such discourses and that at Hull too 6. Whether have not some of you if not all out of acting for your selves and way hindred all that â—…lay in you the sending for our brethren of Scotland to come to our help and whether have not some of you much pleaded against sending for them in and objected as the Malignants doe of the danger of their comming in c and whether
wayes interposed to hinder you from being the universall Lecturers of the Citie who if they had appeared against you might have crossed it 5. The Ministers courted you by all wayes of respect and of high entertainment of you in loving speech friendly countenance familiar conversing with you giving you the right hand of fellowship and in a brotherly intreating you not to appeare for your way that so our differences might not hinder the worke of Reformation withall promising you when they had obtained the Reformation desired they should be ready to gratifie you all they could and to consider you as godly Brethren 6. Upon the Proposition and motion of silence about the points in difference the Ministers were most ready and willing to enter into a strict engagement with you and that though some of your way had been before hand with them in venting your principles amongst the people 7. There hath been much tendernesse expressed towards you and readinesse of yeelding to you all along the more to win you to prevent an open breach and to stop peoples mouthes and particularly in the Assembly of Divines where that patience long-suffering forbearing hath been exercised towards you in your often and long speaking upon points in speaking the same things over and over againe c. as would hardly have been towards any others and I may truly speake it many of our Ministers have not carried themselves towards one another with that love and respect as they have done to you 8. The Ministers have in honour preferred you before themselves and have been contented in a good sense to let you increase and they to decrease and could be so contented still for Gods glory and the good of the Church But I will particularly answer to your Provocations here alleaged and shew you that they were no Provocations to have caused you to make and increase a party by preaching c. For the 1. the common misunderstandings and mis-representations of your opinions and practises was not a sufficient provocation to preaching c. 1. because many of those mists were scattered by your presence againe without speaking a word for your selves or cause and therefore needed not neither preaching printing nor acting for your selves and way 2. You may justly thanke your selves for the misunderstandings of your opinions and practises carrying them so in the dark and putting off from time to time a Narrative of your opinions and wayes thougâ—… so earnestly desired by the Godly Ministers and you sent unto so solemnly for it as also promised by you often so that it was no fault at all in the standers by to misunderstand or mistake some things in your opinions and practises especially being new strange and hidden too 3. Although you speake thus that your opinions and wayes were misunderstood and misrepresented that being one of your usuall Artifices to delude with and to keep off arguments brought against you yet I doe not know any opinion or practise of yours misunderstood and misrepresented I know none that was written against or father'd on you but what was either to be found in some of your Manuscripts c. but of this I have spoken before For the second Provocation the Incitements to this State not to allow you the peaceable practises of your Consciences which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed you and these edged with Calumnies and reproaches cast upon your persons in print I suppose in this you meane that booke written by me entituled Reasons against Independent Government and against the Toleration of it presented to the House of Commons for as for any other book of that nature I remember none besides you commend the other bookes written against your way and Tenets page 15. Now that booke gives Reasons and Grounds for what it writes against and you should have done well either any one of you or all of you to have answered it and had you shewed those Reasons to have been weake and unjust then there had been some colour for you to have made that a Provocation to have acted for your selves and way but by your silence you seeme to give consent to what was written against you But how ever though I writ both against your Government and the Toleration of it in this kingdome yet not against the peaceable practises of your Consciences but the unpeaceable practise of them as you would order matters in England For I spent some leaves in that book to allow you the peaceable practise of your consciences and chaulked you out a way even with the saving of your principles for which you have cause to thanke me As for my incitement to the State it was not to persecution against you for I laid downe a clear medium betweene persecution and a Toleration As for that passage which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed us I have already answered that at large in my former booke and I will here adde another Answer to those I gave then the reformed Churches abroad might safelier allow you the liberty of your consciences there then this State can for there being strangers you and your Churches looked for nothing else you looked not to enjoy the priviledges of offices places in Church and Common-wealth not to be in the ranke of States Burgomasters c. but here in England you Independents will look for the like priviledges that others enjoy as to be Majors of Townes chosen Burgesses and Knights for Parliament c. whereby you will have a mighty influence and advantages to countenance and promote your way and make parties every where which must needs be of dangerous consequence to this State Now for those words and these edged with calumnies and reproaches cast upon our persons in print I answer let the whole booke be perused and let the Reader judge if the first part of the book consisting of the Reasons against Independent government be not wholly argumentative containing nothing personall but rationall and for the second part the Reasons against the Toleration let it be examined whether that be not rationall also and in many pages as full of yealding and sweetnesse as can well be with the keeping of peace and truth and could be expected in such a difference of judgement And whether also I give not in severall passages of that book to Ministers of that way due respects and fitting termes only in one page of the book in answering a popular Reason of yours for a Toleration which I had from one of your own mouthes I gave a popular answer suitable to the Argument but so as without either foule or rayling language 2. I named you not but spake as of many of your Ministers why doe you then appropriate it to your selves and I can truly speake it that for one of you five to whom application is made more especially of some thing there written I did not so much as meane or intend him but doe openly acquit him and disclaime it I deny that
they held in difference which also they promised with all convenient speed in a short time should be brought in and then they would preach against them Now for the better keeping of the agreement and understanding one another for preventing mistakes and differences amongst us a Committee was chosen out of the Company some of them and some of our side to draw up the particulars in writing which was accordingly done and the Agreement under the hands of both sides for our part was to be left with M. Calamie at whose house we met that so if any difference did arise or complaint come we might recurre to the writing drawne up betweene us and accordingly doe Now this strict engagement entred into by you with the rest of your brethren in the Ministery for common ends brought by you here as one great ground of not attempting to make a party and of your deepe silence and forbearance no one thing that ever was done by you was more advantageous to your side and to the increasing of a party which indeed proved as it was feared it would and was by my selfe and some others objected as a ground against any such agreement for looke what came of the Declarations set out by the King by meanes of the Bishops that in the Arminian points there should be on both sides a totall silence in preaching and printing namely a greater prevailing of the Arminian points and spreading of them but a suppressing of the Orthodox so fell it out here for by that meanes nothing was preached nor printed against their way to hinder the growth of it but in the meane time many things were preached and printed for it our side made conscience of the promise and forbore totally preaching and printing For my owne part though for many Reasons I desired to have been excepted from the agreement as being engaged by a former promise in print to set out speedily some Tractates against their way and never did formally promise silence yet because my brethren undertooke for me for without my forbearing to print and preach they would not have yeelded to the Agreement that I might not be singular and goe against the Judgement of all my brethren though my Judgement was against the promise of silence upon what I evidently foresaw would follow upon it the advantage they would make by it to encrease a party and that I might not be guilty of hindering the common ends held out I did totally both in preaching and printing decline all those points of difference and notwithstanding I heard and knew that some of their side preached contrary to the agreement yet all that time untill it was openly declared in a full Assembly the agreement was broken and I declared I would be at freedome and some of them said the like I preached not upon those points whereas in this time many of their way preached for their way both in Citie and Countrey and some who by name were spoken of at the agreement as Mr P. and M. W. besides bookes were printed too in that interim for their way as M. Cottons answere to M. Ball about Formes of Prayer and his Church Catechisme c. In a word in the whole carriage of that businesse they were too hard for us by their policie and subtilty for whereas a mutuall silence was agreed upon both in preaching c. and that out of hand they should bring in a Narrative of their opinions wherein they differed from us and then should joyne with us in preaching against the Brownists and Anabaptists they never brought in their Narrative till this day and though at full meetings of the Ministers they have been spoken unto and some Ministers have been sent from the Company to some or one of them and the Narrative was promised at such a time and then at such a time yet it was never performed and whereas the agreement in writing for our side was left in M. Calamies hand M. Nye comes after some time to M. Calamy and pretends some reasons for to borrow it for a while but after he had it he carries it away into Yorkshire that so upon occasions of complaints of the breach of the agreement when we would have consulted with that that was gone and M. Nye keepes it till this day and having been moved to restore it his answer is it is at Hull amongst other papers 4. And above all the due respect we have had to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State the hopefull expectation we have been entertained with of an happy latitude and agreement by meanes of this Assembly and the wisdome of this Parliament Strong motives indeed peaceable and orderly Reformation with a hopefull expectation of an happy latitude and agreement powerfull and effectuall to have commanded peaceable and orderly men but though you make these grounds above all the rest to have carried weight yet they could no more prevaile with you then the forenamed as I have fully proved and whether you have had such due respect to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State let what followes speake Is it peaceable and orderly in a time when the Magistrate makes it his maine worke to reforme and cals so many godly learned Ministers from all parts to consult with to settle the Church and Government according to the Word of God for particular private men to gather Churches and to adde to them daily without and against the consent of the Magistrate yea against the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference now no one thing could hardly more occasion or augment the differences then this of gathering Churches according to your way one or two out of this godly Ministers Parish one or two out of this Family the wife from the husband against his consent c Againe is it peaceable and orderly for these gathered Churches to meet on the Sabbath day in private houses at the times of the publique Assemblies whereby great tumults and combustions have been and may be occasioned in the streets And is it a due respect to peaceable and orderly Reformation to preach publiquely upon points in difference and for a Toleration of divers Sects and opinions And lastly is that a due respect to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and Siâ—…te to see in Churches where you and other Ministers of your way have preached great tumults and disorders committed by your followers against the use of any part of the Lyturgie and yet never to reprove them for it nor to teach them to expect and wait till the Parliament would settle things which of you have preached against the tumults in Churches or the Lay-preaching or the gathering of Churches by the people We have had a sprinkling of a little Court holy-water for a colour
of the piety wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one c. which testimony given by you to this Assembly and that Character given by you of the people and the Professours of this Kingdome in page 24. and 28. are worthy to be observed and are of great use in these times when the Assembly and their proceedings are so much traduced and spoken against by your followers and Churches and let me make this use of it to the people and sadly put this question to their Consciences Whether is more probable that an Assembly so judicious of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the pietie wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one going in Gods way as you say page 28. making it their worke and businesse to find out the Government and the truth about the order of the Church visible and giving freedome of debates to men of different mindes and apprehensions seeking God publiquely and privately daily with so many prayers put up for them in all Churches at home and abroad beyond the Seas should find out the truth or Mr Lockyer Mr Batchelor Mr Carter with a company of weake ignorant men and women youths and maids apt to be seduced and ready to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way As to those words We would much rather have chosen to have been venting them to the multitude apt to be seduced I answer so you did much rather chuse to vent your opinions and principles both in publique and private to the multitude apt to be seduced according to the opportunities you had these three yeares then to communicate them to your godly brethren of the Ministerie as I have before fully shewed For this passage of yours But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and reforming the Churches of Christ wee have adventured our selves upon this way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State whether this be so or no that you have had a conscientious regard to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truth and reforming the Churches of Christ let my last answer and what is before proved witnesse and if out of a conscientious regard to the orderly c. you adventured to be members of the Assembly and upon this way by an Assembly of searching out truths why did you not before the Assembly forbeare the disorderly and unpeaceable way of venting your selves to the multitude and of gathering Churches c. as also since the Assembly the disorderly and unpeaceable way of searching out truths in writing this Apologie in preaching some Sermons with some other practises which were no orderly nor peaceable wayes of searching out truths especially the Assembly sitting But them beleeve you that will I judge and that upon grounds and hints already given that other things made you adventure to be of the Assembly and to come thither constantly rather then the conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and I cannot let passe without some animadversions the phrase used by you here of your being members of the Assembly We have adventured our selves a very significant and true expression for I beleeve you accounted this Assembly a great Adventure for your Church-way and such a bottome as you would not have put it in at least not so soon if all the wayes you could have devised under heaven would have hindred it but it happened to you according to the Proverbe Nothing venture nothing have for supposing there must be an Assembly you might perhaps by being members of it doe your selves and way some good but by declining and refusing it you had been certainly lost But brethren what is the reason that in this Section wherein you give so full a testimonie to the Assembly and of your great adventuring to be members of it that you annex in the close these words following And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages both of number abilities of learning Authoritie the streame of publique interest trusting God both with our selves and his own truth c. Whether does not this somewhat reflect upon the Assembly as if there were a great hazard that things would be carried there by number abilities of learning Authority the streame of publique interest rather then by truth for if points were not likely to be carried so by plurality of Votes c. but by the clearest proofes from Scripture then these were no disadvantages to you but all the advantage would lie on that side whether many or few whether greater Scholars or lesse that could bring the strongest Scripture grounds and I must tell you that in such an Assembly as you confesse this is and is well known to be both for the persons and ends of its calling that great liberty of speech and debate with that solemne Protestation taken by every member at first sitting there a man need not account those things specified by you for any disadvantages for any two or three men nay one of a different judgement in Doctrine or discipline from that Assembly having truth on his side and but so much learning as to manage and make out his evidences though a man of no authority might easily cause the consciences of most there to owne and fall downe before that truth and to change their mindes yea and to blesse God for the light and imbrace the person or persons that brought it much lesse need you whose number is sufficient about ten besides some who are halfe Independents having parts and abilities enough and Authority to manage your arguments and even to command free and long audience complaine of these things for disadvantages but I am jealous this passage is here inserted and brought in to possesse the peoples minds fearing by this time this Apologie was set out things might not goe on your side and to give them something to confirme them in your way to teach them what to say namely though you had the truth and brought such strong arguments as were not answered yet you could not be heard but matters were carried against you by pieces the greater number of the Assembly by far being of another judgement as also by the streame of publike interest Authority c. And many of the people of the Church way speake thus already that the Assembly cannot answer your arguments but beare you downe with numbers the Parliament should have done well to have chosen as many of your way as on the other side and then there would have been a faire and even triall but I will examine all your disadvantages apart and give you and the Reader a particular account of them First For Number though you have not so many of your judgement in the Assembly yet you have a competent number to plead your cause and to be the mouth for all of your way to speake
doe not goe to heaven to be with Christ expresly contrary to the 2 Cor. 5. 6 8. and to Philip. 1. 23. now whether some of you may not hold those opinions seeing they were publiquely preached at Arnheim and never condemned as ever I heard I know not but have reason rather to suspect you doe how ever though you doe not nourish any Monsters or Serpents of opinions in your bosomes yet I feare you have running wormes in your heads and together with the gold silver and Ivory of Orthodox truths you have store of Apes and Peacocks conceits and toyes as strange coined distinctions new strained expositions of Scriptures odd opinions about the personall raigne of Christ on earth and I aske you what the annointing with oyle of sick persons as an Ordinance for Church-members and what the bringing in of Hymnes composed by the gift of a Church-member cum multis aliis are whether are not these strange conceits and how ever you may be free of Monsters and Serpents of opinions lurking in your bosomes yet there is much of a Monster and the Serpent lurking in this Apologie and to be sure one Monster of opinions you all hold generally and some of you have preacht for A Toleration of divers sects and opinions and let me tell you granting you five be so Orthodox and supposing your argument good to prove it exposing your selves to the hazard of discovery in this Assembly which is no concluding argument yet there are many members of those Churches to which you belong besides many other members of Churches of your way and communion whom I suppose must be tolerated as well as your selves that doe hold very odd and strange things Some of Arnheim hold strange conceits and some members of Mr Sympsons Church hold some of the points of the Anabaptists and daily the Independent Churches like Africa doe breed and bring forth the Monsters of Anabaptisme Antinomianisme Familisme nay that huge Monster and old flying serpent of the Mortality of the soul of man and indeed there is no end of errours that the Independent principles and practises lead unto As for those words if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not aforehand open to the view and Iudgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent we could not be long hid c. I answer some one or two Heterodox opinions may be hid where men are Orthodox in the most especially if all points of doctrine have not been discussed nor reviewed as in the Assembly they have not many Articles of our Church not having yet been gone through so that your errours in doctrine may be behind and your triall of being Orthodox will be when the Assembly comes to these Articles Article 19 22 23. 26. and when that doctrine concerning the Lawfulness of a Toleration of divers sects and opinions shall come to be discussed But before I passe from this I desire the Apologists to remember and the Reader to observe they call the Church of England Our Church and so in the fift page of this Apologie Our own Congregations we meane of England So that if you meane as you here write then the Nationall Church of England is your Church and the Parochiall Congregations are yours and so you establish a Nationall visible Church under the new Testament and if so why doe you erect other Churches and withdraw from your own but if you doe not meane so nor beleeve there is a Nationall visible Church nor account your selves members of this Nationall Church why doe you speake so and call the Church of England your own Church and the Parochiall Churches your own Congregations As for that part of this Section which concernes your good carriage in the Assembly in matters of Discipline In matters of Discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld c. I not being present at the debates will say nothing against it but whether since the writing of your Apologie and the Assembly comming to the points of Discipline which are properly yours your free-hold you have been so faire and moderate endevouring upon all occasions to grant and yeeld to the utmost latitude of your light and Consciences that I doubt and your best friends are not satisfied in it but rather much offended and you have much lost your selves with them by your demeanour and way of managing matters of difference in the Assembly But supposing all you say of your selves in this Section were fully so both before and since your Apologie yet it were not much materiall nor much to be trusted to being upon the triall of your good behaviour for it is probable all that may be done out of policie in reference to the main designe of obtaining a Toleration which at first cannot be imagined to have any probabilitie of being gained without all seeming fairenesse and compliance and drawing neere to us and therefore this Apologie is so framed in the words phrases and composure of it that in it you have stretcht your selves to the utmost latitude and highest compliance with the Church of England and the Reformed Churches even beyond what is meant by you in our sence and in common acception and beyond what many of your followers will own As also you hide and reserve severall things you hold both in matter and manner that so by all this you might court the Parliament Assembly Reformed Churches to beare with such conscientious men who differ so little from them and are so moderate and temperate also in and about the debate of those differences but the Parliament and the Assembly are wise to see into and thorough these Artifices and to consider that if once a Toleration were granted there would quickly be discovered another face of things which hitherto stands behind the curtain As for this passage in the close of this Section your not being backward urgers unto a temper not only in things concerning your own consciences but others also such as may suit and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determintions of truth one way I judge then you had but a weake ground to urge you to temper in matter of difference and I question whether you were so forward to a temper in the things that might suit and tend to union for I suppose you are so farie from holding that a great and usefull end of Synods a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding Determinations of truth one way as that you deny it I have read a letter out of New-England from a Minister of note there speaking of that Synod which met upon occasion of the Antinomians and Familists formally denying this power of binding
speake truth you were so much the peoples Darlings and Favourites having such a power both with the people and with many in place that not to oppose or reproach your persons but your opinions and that but collaterally and interpretatively was enough to unsaint many men as good as your selves and to blast them with many for the present As for that comparison the opposition and reproach of good men as grievous to your spirits as suffring Exile I conclude your Exile was very gentle then and I judge both much alike grievous that is neither but what tender spirits have you and what constitution are you made of that a little opposition and reproach of good menâ—… especially having with it so great applause and high esteeme to over-ballance it should be so grievous to your spirits as many yeares suffering even unto exile Many of us have and doe endure great oppositions reproaches revilings and stornes from those who would be thought not onely good but the best men with many neglects slightings desertings and ingratitude from whom we had all reason to have expected the contrary and all this in the shade without any one beame of speciall favour shining upon us which though we could not but see and take notice of all along and cannot but upon this occasion upbraide the unthankfulnesse of many people leaving all to God to cleare our righteousnesse and to convince them yet we have made no complaints to the world nor written Apologies for our selves but through the grace of Christ have in patience possessed our soules without much grievousnesse to our spirits our Consciences within us witnessing we have suffred all this for our faithfulnesse to God and to his people and for no other cause given to them and if opposition and reproach from good men be no lesse grievous then Exile some of us who have been Anti-Independent have suffered a sore Exile more yeares then you the Apologists For besides our reproaches during the time of your Exile in Holland we have since your returne from Exile even to this present day suffered many reproaches and lost all manner of wayes in name estate and friends for nothing else but for appearing against the Brownists and Independents and how much in the meane time most of you have gained all manner of wayes is written with a sun-beame But what is this opposition and reproach from good men you have endured no lesse grievous then an Exile for many yeares you say even the threatning of another banishment Is the threatning of another banishment so grievous a matter that you here present it to both Houses as a motive to perswade the Parliament to grant you a Toleration Threatned folkes they say live long and so may you you are not yet banished nor used as men likely to be banished besides the good men that threatned it had no power to performe it Banishment belongs not to them I can hardly beleeve it that such high and confident men as you are should be so troubled with threats especially from men in whose power it lies not but you are willing to make any thing an Argument to both Houses to consider you in that point If one or both Houses had threatned you banishment that might have beene as grievous to you as your former Exile but for any of your fellow-Ministers you might have threatned them againe and have stood upon equall termes I know in some cases and could name how some of you have done it and when words have been spoken to you about your opinions by some Ministers you have given as good as was brought you and have bid them doe their worst you doubted not but by your friends to make your part good and that you had as many for your way as they But for my part I doe not remember any good men who have threatned you with another banishment some may in reasoning with you have argued against a Toleration of your Independent Government and if you will from thence by consequences say they threatned you banishment I judge this is farre fetched For my book which may be is partly aimed at in this as well as in other passages of your Apologie I can cleare it that I threatned you not with banishment but laboured to satisfie you how you might enjoy your consciences in your own land and did lay down a Medium between banishment and a Toleration As for that which you say of your selves that you have been through the grace of God upon you the same men in both in the midst of these varieties I answer if you were the same men in your Exile as you have been since your returne into the Kingdome you have no great reason to boast of it nor to present it to the Houses as a Motive to be the more considered of for most of you have been in England very high and peremptorie and your owne Apologie with this Antapologie gives a full Character of your carriage here so that I may turne these words thus we have been through the corruption in us the same men in Holland and England in the midst of these varieties namely seeking our selves and our owne particular ends too much yea too high confident and peremptorie in our way As for the close of your Apologie in the last nine lines And finally as those that doe pursue no other interest nor designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in our own land c. You come in this to that which was first in your Intention though brought in last for a Conclusion on purpose to leave a deeper impression in the Parliament at the close of all namely that the Houses would grant you a Toleration of your Independent Churches expressed in these soft and faire words the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse which Toleration is ushered in compassed about and closed up with what may be most likely to take namely summing up what is past all your sufferings and patience in Exile reproaches c. with your doings for Reformation and being the same men in all conditions and what is yet to come laying all together to draw both Houses towards you and to worke the people of the Kingdome to stand the more for you Now for answer to this close of your Apologie as containing the end and aime of your writing it I will first examine the Arguments and expressions brought by you to effect your end to perswade the Houses and secondly speake to the thing and matter namely the Toleration of Independent Churches and Government in this Kingdome For the first I answer what you may doe for the future whether you will pursue no other Interest nor designe in this Kingdome but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest I will not prophecie but if we may argue from what you have done and what yet you doe then there is great cause of feare you will pursue other Interest and designes for you have
and doe pursue the designe of increasing your partie and spreading your way as the onely way of God else why have you preached and done so much for it neither can I beleeve you are so low spirited and so terrene as to look out after no other inrerest but a poore subsistance in this Kingdome what have you not the designe and interest of setting up Christs Kingdome and pure Ordinances in the midst of us I professe for my selfe and brethren that we have greater interests and designes in our seeking Reformation then a subsistance in our owne land though it might be never so full and plentifull namely the glory of God the advancement of the Kingdome of Christ the opportunities of doing more service And as for a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest I appeale to the Conscience of the Reader whether that be likely have you contented your selves with a poore and mean condition hitherto have you lived in a poore rank preaching in poore and meane Congregations or have you not ruffled it bearing a higher saile and carrying a greater port then most of the Godly Ministers in Citie or Countrey have not some of you the prime Lectures of the Citie and other good places of advantage and profit besides what some of you have from your owne Churches could not you have been contented to have added more places and can any who know you in what height you live and what Grandees of the times you are and how much you appeare in publike in the chiefe places of resort and have insinuated into so many great men beleeve that you would live contented with a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest let them beleeve you who will for my part I am not satisfied in the truth of it but doe suspect that if the Parliament should make an offer to you to this purpose you would refuse it You say you pursue no other Interest or designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in your owne land well you five shall have your Church-way and enjoy Congregations in such a remote corner of the Kingdome provided you shall not have above fiftie pounds a yeare nor above fiftie persons to each Church you shall adde none from any other Congregations of the Kingdome nor admit any of other Congregations to come to heare you nor never preach in any of our Churches any of your Church-Principles nor speake of them in private to any but your owne members would this satisfie you in your Reply give a positive and cleare answer As for that you say where we have and may doe further service I answer before you fell into this new Church way you did God service but since you have done more dis-service then ever service and if God be pleased to bring you backe into the fellowship of this Church and to joyne in this Reformation to grow up into one body you may doe him further service otherwise in the way of a Toleration which you aime at you will doe more hurt then you can doe good in this Kingdom yea though you had the tongues and parts of Angels As for those words a subsistance in the land which is our birth-right as we are men and the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ our portion as we are Christians I answer a subsistance in the land according to the Lawes established is your birth-right but not otherwise besides the deniall of a Toleration of your Churches doth not deny you a subsistance in the land but you may subsist if you please though no Toleration But supposing you may not have what you please if thereupon you will remove to other Kingdomes that is your fault and not the States when a Father or Master lets their children and servants have what is good and fitting but denies to let them doe what they list and refuses to grant what would hurt them if the children and servants will goe away and put themselves upon inconveniences to have their mindes and wils else-where it is not the parents and masters fault but the children and servants if men will punish themselves with Exile because they cannot have their wils they can blame none but themselves And as for the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ which you say are your portion as you are Christians then they are your portion not as Church members but as Christians and why then doe you keep away many good Christians from them for want of being Church members after your way but let me tell you though the ordinances of Christ be the portion of Christians yet not in what way and dresse so ever they will have them for so the Papists may plead to enjoy them in their way and the Anabaptists in their way but they are the portion of Christians so as to enjoy them according to the word of God in the publike Assemblies and not in a schismaticall way and so may you enjoy among us publike ordinances in the publike Assemblies but to forsake the publike Assemblies and draw away others with you and to set up a wall of separation between you and the reformed Churches this is not your portion as you are Christians but it is against Christianity and is your sinne and schisme As for that allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse you need not doubt that so farre as will stand with peaceablenesse that is so as not to urge subscriptions upon you to all the points of government and order not to cast you out from preaching amongst us though you may be of a different judgement in some lesser matters especially so long as you keep your judgements to your selves and preach not contrary to what is established to make factions and parties But if you meane by the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences that you and others may have free leave to set up separated Congregations and goe and receive in to your Churches whom you please and governe Independently in a different forme of government from the government established I must tell you this ought not to be granted as being inconsistent with peace and truth and would be a perpetuall root and source of many bitter divisions errours and mischiefes in this Kingdome As for your last words of all not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to sot your seet on earth that seemes strange to me doe none of the English Ministers who live in other parts of the world as in Holland New-England and other places enjoy safety health and livelihood are these things confined and tied only to England did not most of you enjoy all these abroad livelihood is confessed in your Apologie a full and liberall maintenance annually safety you went over for and found and as for health some of your way have commended Arnheim you lived at to be like Hartford and Bury in Suffolke and one of you Roterdam to be as good if not better then London which places for health
are sufficiently knowne And however all these things of no other interest but a subsistance in our own land and of enjoying the ordinances of Christ and not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth be held forth as specious pretences to the Parliament and Reader to perswade and to allure them yet the bottome of all this desire of a toleration in England though concealed is that there is no other place on earth where you are like to propagate your way to gaine so great a party to enjoy such full and rich Congregations and to have that respect and applause in your way as in England and in England as London and the adjacent parts or where you can have those faire hopes and probabilities of drawing so great a part of a Kingdome to your Church-way as here and where if you goe on to act as diligently and politickly as you have done in these three yeares last past and the Ministers be as generally silent and the common people of the Kingdome come a little more to understand your principles and have time to digest and consider of the great liberty and power they have thereby the rest of the Kingdome may in time come to be beholding to you for a toleration of Presbyterie if it be established which you will as soone grant if you come to have power in your hands as you will Episcopacy and Popery many of your Church-way ordinarily affirming they had rather have Episcopacie then Presbyterie and it hath been affirmed to me by a Minister of note that a Minister of the Church-way preferred Popery in this Kingdome before Presbyterie for if Popery should come in it would be but short lived but Presbyterie was like to be long lived The Arminians in the Netherlands at first desired but a toleration no more but to be permitted to enjoy in some Churches of their own their consciences with peaceableneâ—… but afterwards that by the connivance and favour of the Magistrates they were in some Cities and places as Amsterdam c. grown to a great number and had a great power then they would not suffer noâ—… tolerate the orthodox Ministers but persecuted them and some were forced to flie as in the stories of the Netherlands is at large recorded And if ever the Independents by connivance or a toleration should come to have a power and strength considerable if they serve not us so I am much deceived All Sectaries and erroâ—…eous spirits who are but tolerated and not owned will watch all advantages to set up their own way as chiefe and when they have a power will be impetuous and violent to effect it as the Anabaptists in Germanie were the Arminians in Holland and the Antinomians and Familists in New-England As women out of their weakenesse and feare when they have power over any are most cruell so Sectaries out of their feare least a State may one time or other cast them out and not tolerate them will upon an advantage suppresse and destroy the orthodox and stablish their own 2. As for the matter it selfe contained in the close of your booke a Toleration of Independent Churches and government the scope and last end of this Apologie whereunto tends all the artifice and fallacies in the composure of it I shall lay downe some Reasons and grounds against it I cannot stand to handle the question at large about tolerations of different Religions or of divers Sects and opinions in one and the same Kingdome this answer being already a great deale longer then I intended it I cannot now open the tearmes and premise the distinctions as distinguishing concerning the nature and kind of errors concerning the persons erring concerning the kinds and degrees of toleration and coaction c. I shall reserve the full handling of this point whether toleration be lawfull to a particular Tractate I intend upon that subject In the meane time upon occasion of what you present here to the Parliament I shall humbly submit to their considerations these following particulars 1. A Toleration of Independent Churches and government with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid downe in Scripture but for Magistrates by good lawes to command and require obedience to the government and Reformation upon good grounds judged to be according to the word of God and so established is lawfull and their duties For the clearing of which I premise two things which I suppose must needs be granted 1. That the Magistrate is custos ac vindeâ—… utriusque Tabula as is confessed by all orthodox Divines that the care of Religion belongs to him and that he is to looke to it that the Church of God and the Government of it be constituted and setled according to the Word and that the people may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie for which end Princes and Magistrates are to make Lawes for the observing of the Worship and Government of Christs Church forbidding and punishing with religious severitie those things which are practised against the Word of God but commanding what is according to it this is one of the great services they yeeld to Christ as they are Magistrates and I find Augustine and other Divines giving that sense of Psal. 2. 10 11. of Kings and Iudges serving the Lord with feare and of Deut. 17. 19. of God commanding the King to read the booke of the Law that he may learn to observe the things which are written in it not onely as private men practising these and ordering their lives according to the Word but as Kings they should order their Office by the Word not onely by living holily for so they serve God as men but as Kings and Magistrates by making Lawes for the Worship of God and prohibiting the contrary 2. That the Reformation in Worship Government c. which shall be setled and established by the Parliament is judged and taken for granted by them to be according to the minde of Christ else why have they called so many able godly and learned Divines to consult with for that purpose and stood so much for a Reformation according to the Word and why else will they establish it if there be any other more agreeable to the Word so that whatsoever other Government after all debates and Reasonings is rejected and refused must be thought not to have such a ground in the Word for if it had why was it not established and owned but comes to seeke for a Toleration and Connivance Now then by vertue of many Scriptures both in the old and new Testament the Examples of the Kings of Judah in commanding and requiring all the people to yeeld to the Reformations made by them and in particular the Spirit of God commending Iosiah for making all Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant which he had made with God the fourth Commandement requiring of the Father of the Family that he see
matters of difference in the Assembly whereby it might be brought to an Uniformitie you endeavour by this Apologie a Toleration and sue for an exemption of Conjunction and Uniformitie in Church Government which is strange you should desire especially having coveâ—…anted to the contrary which breach of covenant is aggravated also that you do not onely do it your selves but you labour to bring the Houses into it by moving them to grant you a Toleration Now if a simple and single untruth need repentance what repentâ—…nce ought there to be for such a compounded aggravated evill as yours â—…s And as I have represented it to your own consciences that you may smite upon the thigh so I turne you over to your Churches whereof you are Ministers that they deale with you for your great sin and either bring you to Conâ—…ion and Repentance or else proceed to censure did I know where your Churches dwelt and where they meet I might then come and complain to them of your great sin but in stead of comming I send them this Answer and hereby give them notice and 〈◊〉 ready to satisfie any that shall desire further proofe and in stead of declaring by letters the offence I doe by printing declare it and require of the Churches especially Mr Sympsons Church as they will not be guilty of suffering known sinne in the Church as they would not suffer sinne to lye upon a brother and as they would vindicate the glory and honour of Christ that they call Mr Sympson to an account and admonish him and bring him to publike repentance for his publike sin or else upon impenitencie and obstinacie that they cast him out of the Church and I beleeve the sin he is charged with will fall under the subject of that dreadfull sentence according to what sins your selves judge that sentence is to be put in execution for Apol. pag. 9. But if Mr Sympsons Church neglect and will not question this sin then I desire the rest of the Churches of that Communion to send to the Churches of the Apologists and to charge them with their countenancing of sin and if the Churches will still beare and wink at sin and continue impenitent that then the rest of the Churches namely Mr Lockiers Mr Carters Dr Holmes c. doe pronounce the heavy sentence of Non-communion against the Apologists Churches and further to dèclare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like to send also to New-England and give notice to all the Churches of the Separation that they may Non-communion the Apologists Churches But if the particular Churches of the Apologists and all the Churches of their owne Communion will all hold to favour sin neither question the Apologists nor their Churches then we shall have a cleare instance of the partialitie of those Churches and of their allowing of sin among themselves and of the insuâ—…ticiencie of those Remedies of Submission Non-Communion Declaration and Protestation FINIS * Calv. epist. 65. Melanct. Verum si in nobis omnibus esset is animus qul esse debet aliquod forsan remedium posset inveniti Et certè foedum exemplum transmiâ—…imus ad posterot c. August Vincentio Epist. 48. Nunc vero etiam si tibi nihil profit non puto nihil ijs profuturam qui eam legere cum Deitimore sine personarum acceptione curaverint a Beza Epist. 1. And 1. Duditio Dominus te totamque familiam ob omni malo ac praesertim a Daemoniss meridianis istie obambulantibus custodiat * Mat. 1. v. 18 19. Acts 7. from v. 2. to v. 57. Acts 22. v. 1. to v 2â—… Acts cap 24. Acts cap. 26. a Justin. Mart. 2. Apolog. pro Christianis Tertul. Apol. Athenag Apol. vel legatio pro Christianis Athanas. Apol. Arnobij Apol. Eulog Apologâ—…t Sanctorum Martyr b Zuinglij Apol qua ad crimina respondet Apologet. contra Episcop Constant. Bucer Apolog. contra Brentium Dannaei Apolog. pro Helvet Ecclesijs Apolog Dan. pro adoratione Melancthonis Apol. August consess Apolog. pro Luthero Gualtb Apol pro Zuinglio Beza Apolog. Jevelli Apolog. Eccl. Anglicanae Mort. Apol. Cathol c Scâ—…venfeld Apol. contra Fabium Apol ad Regeâ—… Hung. de mediatione Stancari Apolog. Vorstij Theses Apolog. Exeg Apol. Oratio Apolog. Bertij Apolog. Apolog. Remonstrantium Apolog. Schast Francae D. P. Dirick Pâ—…ps Apol Apolog. Episcop Francisc. de S tâ— Cl. d Apologie of the Brownists Robins Apolog. Justif. of Separat e Apolog. for Ch. Cove Apol. Reply Davenport * Page 4. 11 19 12 24. Apolog. Apolog. M S. to A. S. cap. 5. pag. 83. Apolog. Dissert de Guber Eccl. pag. 620. Quinam bujuâ—… criminis rei judicentur me quidem latet neque in qirere ad nos attinet Hoc scio noâ—… convenire in eos qui intra sententiae nostrae terminos se continent Apolog. To his loving friends Mr Henry King Mr Tost Mr Smith Mr Raner Mr Mapp Apolog. Apol. Iusta necessaria per Joh. Robins cap. 6. De conjugio per pastores Ecclesiae celebrato Reformat of Ch. Govern in Scotland pag. 4 5 18 19. Reformat of Ch. Govern in Scotland pag. 10. Reformat of Ch. Govern pag. 18. 'T is laid for a common ground by the Divines in all the â—…eformed Churches that where a whole Nation is converted to the Christian faith every particular Church is not to be left to it selfe as if it were alone in a Nation but that Christ hath provided a way and there is a necessity of a common Nationall government to preserve all the Churchâ—… in unitie and peace Apolog. Page 9. Meâ—…ch Adam vita Whitak pag. 177. Mr Raâ—…b Narration of Ch. courses p. 1. The rest of the Churches in New-England came at first to them in Plimouth to crave their direction in Ch. courses and made them their patterne Apolog. Letter Mr Cottons letter examined and answered pag. 44. Mr Cotton himselfe and other most eminent Ministers in Nâ—…w-England had freely confessed that notwithstanding their former profession of Ministerie in old England yet in New-England till they received a particular calling from a particular Church that they were but private Christians Apolog. Robin p. 10 11. c. 12. de Eccl. Angl. * Robins Apol. cap. 12. p 78. Propria inquâ—… peculiaria in quibus verbi auditionem simpliciter noâ—… annumero â—…pote inqua non intercedit inter docentem discentem communio spiritualiâ—… sive Eccl. sive personalis nisi ex unione prae via Ecclesiastica aut personall Robins Catechis Quest. May all the faithfull partake in the Sacraments Ans. No except they be also added to some particular Congregation Apolog. Letter out of Holland De Ecclesijs reformatis quid aliud dicam eas pro veris genuinis c. Ecclesijs bahemus cum eisdem in sacris Dei communionem prositemur quantum in nobis est colimus conciones publicas ab illarum pastoribus habitas ex
Contendebant etiamad solum magistratum immediatè sub Christo pertineâ—… judicium quando controversiae sidei â—…rtae sunt in Ecclesia Post Synodum in Confess Apol. cap. 25. negant ejuâ—… jus aut officium esse ad decreta Synodica ut ut verbo Dei conformia sint observanda obligare â—…omines sua auctoritate potestate ulla coactiva uti in ea parte negant etiam magistratum juâ—… habere in privatos conventus sed tantum in exercitia quae in templis seu locis publicis ad magistratum pertinentibuâ—… instituuntur Nam cum rebus sua ita consultum putarent aliter statuebaâ—…t contrarium quam admodum alibi a nobis est ostensum Robinson Apolog. cap. 11. de magistratu polit Idem prorsus sentimus de magistratu et illius munere quod ecclesiae Belgicae earum consessionâ—… hac in re ex animo suffragamur Burroughs oâ—… Hosea sixt Lect. pag. 164 165 166. â— Juâ—…us lib. 1. de Pontif. cap. 7 not 2. Nos ita distinguamus mâ—…gistratus qua magistratuâ—… est humanae societatis caput humana ordinatione qua Christianus vero est divinae societatis in Ecclesia membrum divina ordinatione in eadem custos vindex ordinis ut membrum electum ipsius not 4. se Christiani sâ—…t praestantia Ecclesiae membra b Voetius Disp. de quaest penes quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica part prim Thes. 4. Thes. 5. Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiâ—… cap. 25. Apolog quorum prius non posse magistraâ—…ii aâ—… decreta Synodica veâ—… Dei consorâ—…ia observandum sua authoritate obligare con stringere c Apolloâ—… juâ—… majest circa sacra par post cap 3 exam qu. 12. statuimus quoâ—… magistratus potestatem habeat coactivam qua res Ecclesiasticas ex praescripto verbi Dei constitut as legitima via urget subdit is imponit ad disciplinam Ecclesiae stabiliendaÌ„ Ecclesiasticum tuendum ordinem d M. S to A. S. p. 55 5â—… 57 58 59 â—…0 * Concedendum publicum ministerij 〈◊〉 â—…um omnibus suiâ—… circâ—…mstantijs politicis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consideratum eate nus magistratus directioni subjectum esse quod absque authoritate ejus approbativa seu confirmativa seu toâ—…erantiae jurisdictione ab Ecclesia publicè in ejus ditioneinstitui cum aâ—…paratu politico executioni maÌ„dari non possit nisi leges Reipublicâ—… junda mentales subditis id concedant tribuant Apollon jus majestatis circa sacra par post cap. 3. Exam quaest dâ—…decimae a Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiam Magistratus nullam esse potestateâ—… in privaâ—…s convenâ—…us sed â—…tum in publica tempta Voet. disput penes quos sit potest as Eccl. Thes. 4. a De quest Penes quos sit potest as Ecclesiastica b Wale Tractde officio ministrorum authoritate atque inspectione qua magistratus super ministros haberâ—… debet c Apollon sus majestatâ—… circasacra d Altera differentia d wateria sumitur subjectoque administrationum Politicae administrationis sub jectum esse res humanas in desâ—…tione nostra posuimus ecclesiasticae divinâ—… esse sacras docuimus Iunius Eccles. l. 3. c. 4. Habere magistratum qua talem publicam potestatem judicialem seu judicandi judicio cognitionis non tantum sed decinitivo de negot ijs caufis Ecclesiasticis Quod judiciâ—… consequens â—…st non antecedens neque enim sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Ecclesia adhaec praesuppositive est Theologicum sed formaliter politicum quia disquisitio ultimata in eo non est an hoc sit verum sed an velint illud publica authoritate tueri exequi Voet de quaest penes quos sit potest as Eccl. par 1. Thes 4. Apoll â—…us majest circa sacra cap. a par post pag. 63 64 65 6â—… 67 68. Apollon â—…s majest circa sacra cap. 2. examen quaestionis septimae * Nam remedium extreâ—…um atque acerâ—…mum est ad carnem in homine domandaÌ„ ac spiritum vivisicandum exemplum efficacissimum ne pars sincera â—…rabatur adversus verâ—… eas qui in contunacia impâ—…itentia perseverant medium unicum ad Dei domum fermento Ecclesia Christi scandalia liberandam atque adeo verbum sacramenta a pro pbanatione nomen Dei ab externorum blasphematione vindicandum Synops Punor Theol. Disput. 48. de Eccl. discipl thes 59. * Illa vero quae a spirituall Christi regno aliena sunt effectus qui ad hoc coeleste Christi regnil pertinent producere nequeunt proinde quod institutione divina ad eos producendos non sunt sanctificata Disciplina 〈◊〉 c. clesiastica nihil statuit in hominum bona jura dignitates fortunas c. Sed paena quae clavium potestate inâ—…gitur spiritualis quâ—… hominem internum est spiritualem ejus slatum concernit At veroextra speram activitatis politici Magistratus est internum hominem subigers spiritutiem poenam conscient ijs inferre vel hominii animas ab ijs liberare Apoll. â—…us Majesâ—… circa sacra cap. a. exam quest 7. pag. 10â—… * Zanch. de Discipl Eccl. Ad bâ—…c multa etiam sunt scelera in quae ne Magistratus quidem Christianus animadvertere so let aut tenetur ex legibus suis vâ—…uti sunt privatae in â—…tiae simultaies participatio â—…um idalolatris in aliquo impio cultu dissimulatio verae religionis deniâ—… multi maâ—… mores tum domestick tum publick qui non turbant aut pacâ—…m publicam aut honestateÌ„ commodum publicumâ—… Ecâ—…lesia vero ne â—…sta quidem ferre debet sed corrigere juxta Christi iustiâ—…tum Zanch. de Discip Ecclesiast * Illi certè nullo modosinendi sunt vivere cii illorum temporaliâ—… vita alijs 〈◊〉 aeterna mors Zaâ—…ch de magistr 168. Beza Epist. 83. Zanch de Eccl. 〈◊〉 gubern p 552. 〈◊〉 quar praecept 713. Rotterdam Septemb. 4 tâ— 1641. New stile Apolog. Apolog * Peter Martyr loc commun Class 4 cap. 14. de exilio Groeâ—… etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a fugiendo exilium vocarent Reformat of Church-government Reformat of Church gover pag. 14. * Bez. Epist. â—…8 * Bez. Epist. 83 Apolog. Catal Haeretic Schlusselb lib. decimus de Sect a Stenck â—…elp * IndependeÌ„ce of particular Congregations pleaded for pag. 100 101 102 103 a Every particular Congregation is an absolute Church having no jurisdiction over it but Christs alone and that immediately page 52 59. a Mr. Herle The Independency on Scriptures of the Independencie of Churches h Rise growth and danger of Socinianisme page 65 66. Reasons against Independent government pag. 19. * A briefe Narration of some Church courses held in opinion and practise in New-England by W. R. M. Cottons letter from out of England to M. Skelton in New-England Ans. to 32 questions p. 82. Keyes of the kingdome of Heaven Epist. to the Reader * Schlusselb de
and this serves for Scripture grounds to them Now then for the manner of ordering of this according to different Kingdomes Nations or Cities in fewer or more subordinations and in the way and manner of proceedings by severall Churches according to locall temporall and personall circumstances they know well they must goe according to generall rules of the word to the common lawes of nature and prudence and so they leave other Churches to doe the like And had we been led in our former wayes and our removall out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularity which are the usuall grounds of all schisme we had since our returnes againe during this intermisticall season tentations yea provocations enough to have drawne forth such a spirit having manifold advantages to make and increase a partie which we have not in the least attempted We found the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse they finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way And we found that many of those mists that had gathered about us or were rather cast upon our persons in our absence began by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause Whether all of you or only some of you were led in your former wayes and in your removall out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction c. I will not enter into your bosomes nor judge of secret things I leave you to search your selves and to give account of your spirits to the Father of spirits and whether you were led in your former wayes and in your removall out of the Kingdome by any such spirit or no 't is too evident by what I have fore-mentioned that a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularity wrought too much amongst some of you abroad But though no such spirit led you there are to me and many others sufficient visible grounds of your removall out of this Kingdome after you once were off your setled places as your feare of personall violence your selfe-love and worldly wisdome to provide for your selves and yours what ever became of the publicke your horrible dispaire of comming in againe here or things ever turning in this Land as you twice expresse it your great and excessive admiration of the persons of some who were in the Church-way accounting there were no such men in the world as they your discontent and anger at the course and harsh usage in casting some of you out of your places which often times are grounds of heresies and schismes as I could shew out of Ecclesiasticall histories in Tertullian c. And besides these grounds if I may judge of your being led in your former wayes and of your removall out of the Kingdome as your selves make the argument by your spirit being drawne forth since your returne in making and encreasing a partie if that will evince your being led formerly by a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularitie I know not how you will free your selves for since your returnes againe during this intermysticall season you have not been idle nor lost time but have laid hold on the temptations provocations and the manifold advantages to make and increase a partie nay you have not only laid hold on what you found readie to your hands namely the intermysticall season through so many great businesses comming in upon the Parliament one upon another the spirits of the people of the kingdom that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions c. but you have made and encreased new for the making of a partie And I much wonder how you dare speake thus much lesse publiquely in print to publish that you have not in the least attempted to make and encrease a partie the contrarie whereunto is written in such great letters that he who runnes may reade it and I shall presently make evident in answering this passage with others of the like nature in the 25. and 26. pages For the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse and especially of the Citie and the adjacent parts you give a true character together with the ground of it finding themselves to be so much at liberty and new come out of bonduge and it is amongst all the passages in your booke one of the best and if the people would well mind and consider of it that they are readie to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way This might doe them as much good as all the Sermons you have preacht among them since your returnes and might prove an antidote both against the golden sweet poyson in this booke and the principles of your Church-way But thus we see by your owne confession how easily and readily errours are entertained by the good people of this Kingdome when as truth may stand without doores and knocke long before opened unto even as good Phisitians and good right phisicke hath a great deale a doe to find acceptance and admittance among the common-people when Mountabancks and Empricks are sought unto As to those words the finding that many of those mists that had gathered about you or were rather cast upon your persons in your absence began by your presence againe in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for your selves and cause I answer O happie rare men powerfull and gracious with the people whose very presence without speaking a word for themselves or cause could doe thus much after a long absence what will not your speaking and writing for your selves then doe 'T is well for you the most eminent servants of God in all ages have not found mists that had gathered about them or cast upon their persons to scatter and vanish away so easily but after all Apologies and Defence for themselves and cause have found them to sticke close and we find it harder to wipe off the aspersions and mistakes cast on us from your side though for nothing else but for discharging our consciences and labouring to keepe good people from errours But Brethren if it were so with you as here you write what need had you then to write this Apologie to cleare your selves from mistakes especially having been now so long present in the Kingdome and resident in the chiefe Citie having the libertie of the Pulpits and being members of the Assemblie would not the sudden confused noise of exclamations restecting upon you interpretatively without the writing of this