invincible as my rule is uncorrigible Now vnto the point to be decided I breifly answer That a man may eliciâ—t a supâ—rnaturall act of faith many things are required first there must be motiva evidentis credibilitatis prudential motives of evident credibilitie viz. that all nations and men of principall giftes zeal and sanctity and â—â—dowments have beleeved so that it hath stood inviolable against so many and infinite heresies and persecutioÌ„s that it is so ancient so visible so constant and vniforme in all essentiall poincts of doctrine That it hath been sealed and confirmed with the blood of so many glorious Martyrs c. Secondly There must be Ecclesia proponens the Church propounding what is scripture and what is not scripture what is unwritten word viz. tradition and what is not Thirdly there must be prima veritas the first verity â—r Gods veracity that must be ratio formalis the formal reasoÌ„ why we doe beleeve Fourthly There must be a supernatural judgment dictâ—ting that now it is good at least generally to beleeve Fiftly there must be a supernaturall concourâ—â— of Gods holy illumination and a concourse of his infused habit of faith to determinate the indifferent power of our understanding to beleeve or not to beleeve Out of the progresse of which act an answer to your question may easily be deduced For when you ask whither our faith shal be tryed by the verdict of God or of man I answer you directly enough though with a â—â—stinction viz. That if you vnderstand by what formall motive we shall be tryed in our beleefe I answer by the verdict of Gods written and unwritten word But if you aske who shall determine our faith after a propounding manner so we say the Church concurreth after the maner of an applying conditioÌ„ teaching what is Canonicall and that which is not autentike And therefore I will prove first That onely the bare text of the scripture is not a sufficient rule of our faith 2. I will prove that the scriptures expounded by the Catholike Church is a true and indeficient rule of our faith 3. That this rule is onely found in the Romane Catholike church sentence and not in private mens illuminations and motions of a private and unseen spirit First then to prove that the bare scripture is not a sufficient rule of our beleife and that many mysteries and points are to be beleeved that are not expressely taught or evidently deduced out of the holy scriptures I frame this Argument Nothing is to be beleeved that is not taught or gathered out of the written word but that the Bible is Canonicall is neyther directly taught nor by evident consequence deduced out of the same therefore it is not to be beleeved that the Bible is Canonicall scripture The Major is the coÌ„mon assertion of protestants but especially I take it a cheife ground and principle of your sect vide Calvi de vera Ecclesia reformata pag. 473. and the Apologie of the Church of England pag 58. The Minor is approved by Hooker a principall protestaÌ„t in his treatise of Ecclesiast lawes lib. 1. pag. 84. lib. 2. S. 4. pag. 100. 102 who there writeth thus Of things necessary the very cheifest thing is to know what bookes wee are bound to beleive holy which thing is confessed as a thing impossible for the scriptures to teach And afterwardes he confirmeth thus For saith he if any one book did give testimony of all the rest yet the scripture that gives credit to all the rest would require another scripture to be credited neyther could we come to any pause whereon to rest our assurance this way So that we see eyther that he holds scripture is not to be beleived and authenticke or else he requireth the authority of somthing besides scripture to make it authentical The force of this Argument did drive Hooker lib. 3. paragraph the 8. pag. 1â—6 Zanchius in his confess â— â— Brentius in prologo Kemnitij in examine Conc. Trident Doct. Whitak contra Stapletonum lib. 2. cap. 4. pag. 298 30â— to flie unto the authority of traditions to prove scripture to be scripture Which if once they graunt that traditions are sufficient to prove and try the groundwork of our beleife viz. scripture to be scripture why can they not ground other poâ—its of faith of lesser consequence 2. I prove that the bare and naked word of God cannot be an infallible rule or square of truth I prove it thus That which is difficult and includeth many senses at least to the ignoraÌ„t cannot be a certayne rule of faith But the scriptures are thus My Anteced Luther in his preface to the Psalmes acknowledgeth Tertull. in lib. De praescripti sayth Nec periclitor dicere ipsas quoque scripturas esse et voluntate dei dispositas ut haereticis materias subministrarunt cum legaÌ„ opportet haereses esse quae sine scripturis esse non possunt Where he confesseth that misinterpreting of scripture set the doore open to heresies S. Peter also sayeth that in S. Pauls Epistles there be many things hard to be vnderstood which the unlearned and unstable deprave as al the rest of the scriptures to their own perdition And the difficultie thereof made S. Augustin though a Doctor of incomparable wit and learning in his 12. conf c. 14. break out in the height of adâ—iâ—ation and say oh wonderfull profoundness of thy words c. Idem to 3. lib. 2. De doctrina Christ c. 6. confess that there was more in the scriptures that he understood not then of that which he understood The â—unuch of the Queen of Aâ—thiopia was dayly conversâ—â—t in the scriptures yet he confesseth that he could not vnderstand them without a master The second part of my Antecedent viz. that the scripture hath many senses litterall many senses spirituall of whose manifold deepe and mysticall sense the ignorant reader cannot be possest And therefore since in the old law when any difficulty happened the Preist was to decyde it and therefore with a farre greater interest is the Preist of the new law that hath that spirit of interpretation redoubled and ratification of his doctrine assigned and confirmed by Christ Jesus himselfe is to expound the hidden senses of scripture And therefore S. John vltim◠〈◊〉 bids S. Peter and his successors feed his flock with the spirit of interpretation which is the food to a reasonable flock and fold This made the Apostles when they were to decyde the controversies about the cessatioÌ„ of the ceremonies of the old law not to repaire vnto their private spirits interpretation but to a counsell gathered in Hierusalem where S. Peter was head where all was concluded with Visum est Spiritui sancto et nobis It seemes good vnto the holy ghost and vnto vs. And therefore let S. Peter himself conclude That no propheâ—iâ— of scripture that is no interpretation
the Israelites discerned canonical scriptures from others so doo we for we Gentiles are coheyrs with them and of the same body for there is one body and one spirit as there is one Lord and one faith But they relyed not on the Church or on the Highpreist his council for had they so doon their church must haue had privilege not to err as you think of yours which if you grant a Iew he wil overthrow your beleef in Christ seing their Preists Elders people condemned Christ his Apostles and their writings As you would answer a Pharisee for this point so mind the like answer to your self Finally your plea is overthrown confounded by your own practise for you will have us receive the scriptures for canonical because your Church of Rome sayth so they are we must beleeve upon her word Tobie and Iudith to be canonical but the third and fourth of Esdras not the first and second of the Machabees to be canonical but not the third or fourth If any make question of this for conscience sake you seek to resolve him by the definitive sentence of the Pope who cannot err But if he ask why the Pope of Rome may not err aswel as the Patriarch of Constantinople you then allege as after to me in this your letter Christs promise to Peter Mat. 16 and there you scan every word and presse every circumstance of the text to make him beleeve that Peter was the Rock and head of the Church and consequently the Popes his successors Ask he you againe how he shall know that Matthewes gospel wherin this promise is written is canonical rather then Nicodemus gospel you will answer because the Pope hath so determined Thus the very entrance and ground of your religion bringeth men into a maze and Labyrinth for we must beleeve the Pope cannot err because Christ sayth such words to Peter which the Pope expoundeth and applyeth to himself we must beleeve that Christ sayd them words because the Pope hath determined that he sayd them Thus the foundation of our faith must rely wholly upon man a clod of clay whatsoever he telleth us is scripture that must we so esteme how ever he expound scripture so must we take it what he sayth is tradition or Gods unwritten word we must so regard and keep it be it never so absurd against the light of nature against reason against the grounds of faith against the evident testimonies of the prophets and Apostles we must captivate all our understanding faith and conscience under the Popes wisdome and all because he telleth us we must so doo Otherweise if we may trie this principle of yours by the scripture through the light of Gods spirit in us then may we doe the like of other which be of lesser moment Consider I pray you this first point seriously and the Lord give you understanding in all things And let me here put you in mind though I be not yet come to the end of the last motive in your letter where you tell me how wheÌ„ you shal be demanded at the tribunal of almighty God why you beleeve in the Roman catholik church you can answer by reason Christ himself teacheth you so saying He that heareth you heareth me c. But deceive not your own soul for when Christ shall ask you at that day why you have worshiped images sung masse and Dirige prayed to Saints and soules departed and transgressed many other of his fathers coÌ„mandements by your traditions you will answer because the head of your church the Pope did teach you so when he shall ask you how you knew the Pope to be head of the church and to haue such authoritie over your conscience you will answer because Christ himself spake such words to Peter as are written Mat. 16. When he ask you agayn how you knew that he spake those words or that they extended to the Pope of Rome above all other your answer vvil be according to the grounds of your religion because the Pope himself vvith his senate of Cardinals did tel you so Then vvil your hope be the vveb of a spider and your house novv seeming upon the Rock vvil be found upon the sand you shall hear the Curse pronounced upon the man that trusted in man and made flesh his arm and vvithdreâ—v his hart from the Lord and that all such vvorshiped him in vain as had their fear tovvard him taught by the precept of men The Rock of my hart vvho is my portion for ever preserve me and deliver you from those syrtes and quicksands vvhere men make ship-vvrack of faith Your second argument to prove that the bare naked vvord of God cannot be an infallible rule or square of truth is this That which is difficult and includeth many fenses at least to the ignorant cannot be a certaine rule of faith But the scriptures are thus Your antecedent you seek to confirm by Luther Teâ—tullian and S. Peter also vvho as you vvrite sayth that in S. Pauls epistles ther be many things hard to be understood which the vnlearned and unstable deprave as all the rest of the scriptures to their own perdition To this of the Apostle I answer first you set the holy text on the centers to stretch it out for your usâ— The Apostle sayth some things are hard to be understood you vvould haue him say many things he sayth they deprave these as the rest of the scriptures you say as all the rest Secondly this testimonie though it vvere as large as you extend it proves not your antecedent but onely the first part of it and scarce that too For to gather because part is difficult therfore the vvhole is is more then eyther his vvords or good reason vvil bear The later part that the scripture caÌ„not be a certayn rule of faith follovveth not upon the former it may be a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though some part of it be difficult though many men doo deprave it Our ignorance or perversnes cannot make crooked that vvhich is most streight no more then our unfaithfulnes can make the faith of God of none effect The artizen that vvorketh by rule and squire maâ— through vvant of skil or heed vvork amysse but himself is to blame and not his rule Againe though some scriptures be difficult yet many be plaine and easy and God hath so tempered them togither that the vvisest should haue vvherin to exercise their vvit and admire Gods mysterios and the simplest should haue playne documents vvherby to grouÌ„d their faith It is our fathers vvil also that to some his vvord should be in parables that hearing men may hear and not understand vvhen to others it is given to knovv the secrets of the kingdom of God vvho hath vvritten his vvord to give unto the simple sharpnes of vvitt to the child knovvledge and discretion Again you allege the Eunuch Act. 8. vvho confesseth that he could
a view how you mainteyn your proofs First you say I fayn would challenge the name catholik unto my self I answer this is not so The catholik church is the mother of al Christians of which I am an unworthy child but were not worthy to be named her child if I would challenge her title which belongs not to me nor to any her daughters the particular churches on earth Secondly you say that after I seem to refuse it because it is not warranted by the written word asking why I doo not as wel reject the name Trinitie aâ— I answer agayn the contrary to that you say is true for I proved and that by the written word which it seems you could not doo that ther is a catholik or vniversal church and if need were could bring many moe proofs Why then doe you injurie me so openly before the sun and then run on to dilate upon your own wilfull mistaking such dealing dooth not become any true member of the catholik church But you can shew us you say the prophesie of Isaiah fulfilled that the gospel is preached to all nations But we need not be shewed that by you for it is shewed us by the Ap ostle almost 16. hundred yeres agoe Rom. 10. 18. 16 26. The whole world you say is replenished with the fruit of your doctrine The more is the pitty if it pleased God for your doctrine is not the gospel but the Popes definitive sentences But this also we have been taught many yeres agoe As al the world wondred and folowed the first beast so the second did all that the first beast could doe before him and made all both small and great rich and poor free and bond to receive the mark The waters where the whore fitteth are people and multitudes nations tongues All nations have drunk of the vvine of the vvrath of her fornication Papisme is large Mahometisme larger Paganisme largest dispred in these our last and most dangerous days But our invisible churches you think are excelled farr by the Jewes visible meetings in sundry places But the woman that fled into the vvildernes vvas seen of God and dear unto him though she vvere hid from the visible Dragon and his persecuting Angels Esau had much more visible glorie then his poor brother Iaakob vvhen so many kings reigned in AEdom before any King reigned over Israel Fevv soules vvere saved in the Ark vvhen many perished in the syn-floud And this maketh many George Davids to deney the verity of the Bible beleeve the traditions of Babel because the promised visible destruction of the church of Antichrist is not yet performed But you Roman catholiks have all motives as you say of evident credibilitie as 1. all antiquitie Nay stay there the most antique records of the holy Prophets and Apostles you dare not stand to be tried by but shun them and flee to your late traditions and Popes definitive sentences So your church vvil be her ovvn judge vvhether she be a vvhore or no vvheras neyther Aholah nor Aholibah vvould give that sentence against themselves though men vvent unto them as to a common harlot but the righteous men judged them after the manner of harlots 2. Unitie not in the truth but in haeresie for your church hath by degrees from age to age so declined from the lavves of God that she is one vvith her self but become an alien from Christ. For proof vvheof let the ancient faith of the church in Rome vvheÌ„ Paul vvrot therto the nevv faith of the church of Rome decreed in the Council of TreÌ„t be compared togither and vve shall find as good unity betvveen them in many things as betvveen light darknes Besides vvhat unitie is in your religion the late broiles in England betvveen the Iesuites and the seculars to omit all former schismes that have been in Rome it sâ—lf may shevv Though by the Popes povvrfull hand they are novv tyed togither at least by thâ— tayles like the foxes in Palestina 3. Universalitie even as it vvas in the dayes of Noe vvhen the â—â—ood came and destroyd them all for so shall it be in the day vvhen the son of man shal be reveled Vniversalitie of abomination shal procure from God univorsal desolation for with her inchantments vvere deceived all nations 4. Disibilitie Even notorious to all that have eyes to see For if a citie can not be hid that is situate upon a mountayn hovv should not that citie be seen vvhich is set upon 7. mountayns on vvhose top your vvoman sayleth 5. Confirmed by the consent of Doctors for her merchants are the great men of the earth 6. By the institution of most holy religious orders for the vvomaÌ„ is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guilded vvith gold and precious stones and pearles in her house are peace offrings and the payeth her vovves and perfumeth her bed vvith myrrh aâ—oes and cinamon because Christs institutions and most holy orders are too mean and base for her royaltie 7. The conversion of nations for the inhabitants of the earth are drunken vvith th vvine of her fornication she hath caused many to fall dovvn vvounded and great is the number of all that are slayn by her 8. The power of miracles shewing great signes and vvonders that if it vvere possible the very elect mought be deceived but that all they may be damned vvhich beleeve not the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousnes 9. Infinite number almost of martyrs that have sealed her doctrine with their bloods c. for among her other merchandise are also the soules or lives of men vvhom she exposeth by sending into the nations to sovv her darnel and to sel her vvares till the kingdomes of the earth revvarding her as she hath revvarded them doo cut off these chapmen from land of the living Hovv be it she her self hath made many moe martyrs by killing Christs vvitnesses that have spoken against her as England France Germanie and many other nations testify for in her must be found the blood of the prophets and of the saincts Thus have I confirmed your notes by the scriptures vvhich you did set dovvn barely without proof that all men may see your markes may be shewed by the vvord of God Other apples there are vvhich your soules lust after all vvhich shall depart from you as God raiseth vp the vvitnesses of his truth against you But you proceed and say 2. You have a certaine visible and infallible way to decide all controversies which is the catholik church that propoundeth what is to be beleeved and what is not A sure vvay in deed vvherein you may vvalk safely till God rise up to judgement against you You boast to be the onely catholik church and to have the onely true beleef vve except against you by the vvord of God your church vvhich
faith if it be as it ought that is if it be accomodated proportioned vnto the object end of our faith as it is necessary vnto salvation deth eyther require a particular motion of the Holy Ghost or an infused habit of faith as it appeareth out of the 7. chapter of the Aransicanum Conc. and out of the Trident Sess 6. c. 5. et canone Where it is affirmed that without Gods preventing grace and the illuminatioÌ„ of the holy Ghost no man can beleeve things reveled as he ought that is that Gods justifying grace be given him 141. Fourthly I affirme that this certaine and inevident iudgment of the truth of our faith into these humain reasoÌ„s and motives as into the moving applying and impulsive cause but not as into the formal motive of beleeving And the selfe same judgment is resolved into the supernatural light as into the true efficieÌ„t cause of that certitude and proportioÌ„ which it hath with his adequate object and end both being supernatural 142 If I be demaunded therefore whie I beleeve â— persoÌ„s and one God or any other thing I answer if you aske of me the formal reason whie I assent I answer I beleeve because God hath revealed it If I be thenasâ—ed how I know God hath revealed it I answer I doe not evidently know this though certainly I know it for the same revelation and infalible authoritie which the church of God as an intrinsecal condition or application applies to me to be beleeved 143. But if I be further questioned since the revelation of God and the proposing are both obscure and inevident how cames it theÌ„ that I certainly and evidently doe beleeve 144. I answer then I returne vnto the motives of evident credibilitie that maie induce any prudent man to beleeve that saith and that church warranted by so many motives 145. Neither is here coÌ„mitted any vitious circle between the authoritie of God the church as I have before convinced you in your grounds to commit For first the authoritie of God revealing in vertue of which the infailibilitie of the proposition is beleeved and the selfe same infallible proposition in vertue of which we beleeve that God â—â—ies and reveales hath two diverse objects For the object of the infailible proposition is that God reveales And the object that God reveales or of the revelation of God is the veritie beleeves 146. â— I saie in that when out of the authoritie of God revealing is given the formal reason of our beleeving the motive is given by the formal cause But when out of the infallible proposing of the church a reason to given whie we beleeve the divine revelation If it be vnderstood aright it is not to be given by a formal cause or motive but by an intrinsecall and requisite application of the motives whie we beleeve which is doone by the proposing of it by the church so that ther is no circle ab eodem in idem secundum idem which Aristotle only coÌ„demns 1. Post. text 5. as I have shewed before 147. Yet to goe one degree further in shewing how we are free in another regard from this mere circular and fruictless resolution of theirs I presuppose that then is coÌ„mitted a circle when the selfe same is proved by the selfe same to him that graunteth neither or doth aequallie deny both or doubteth of both For proofe of which we learne out of Aristotle that we ought to proceed from that which to knowen to that which is not knowen or at least from that which is graunted to that which is not graunted for so we shall proceed from that which is knowen after a manner to that which is not knowen 148. Whence I inferr that he should coÌ„mit this circuler discourse that to an Ethnick that equally should denie both scripture and the infallibilitie of the church should prove that the scripture were of divine authoritie in that the church teacheth vs it and the church of infallible authoritie in that the scripture teacheth vs it But to a protestant that admits of most of the scripture it is no circle to prove the infallibilitie of the church which he denies from the scripture which he admits of but first you do not give a resolutioÌ„ of your faith as I doe that is powerful against Ethnick or heretick 2. though wee admit of scripture yet wee cannot be vrged therevnto by you that receiving from the church the scripture will not beleeve all that she proposeth alike to be beleeved 149. The foresaid manner of proof is vsuall both in the scriptured and in ancient Fathers The Pharisees did admit of Moses and denie Christ. Therfore our Saviour convinced them with these words Joh. 5. 46. If you did beleeve Moses you would beleeve me for he gave testimonie of me Againe contrariwise the Manicheies did admit of Christ and the gospel did deny Moses and the Prophets therfore S. Aug. contra FaustuÌ„ ManichaeuÌ„ in his book lib. 1. de moribus Ecclesiae Catholicaec 1. et seq did convince the Manichees The like manner of proceeding wee take to instruct a Catholick that should denie any parcel of scripture wee convince him by the judgment of the church to whom he submits himselfe And Hereticks that denie tradition the church and the Popes authorâ—tie wee convince them out of scripture out of the writings vniform consent of the holy Fathers thowsands of whom M. â— A. saies he preferres for wisdom truth and holiness before himself whose vniversall consent of them living in all times being most expert in tongues neare our Saviours times many of them being the Apostles schollers not partiall to eyther of our causes writing so long before many delivering matters of facts that doth prove or coÌ„firme many poiâ—â—â— of our doctrine I cannot see how you can denie them especially since you saie you admit so farr of them as they agree with scripture For S. Hierom translated it S. Ambrose S. Aug. S. Greg. S. Barnard interpreted it and they all cite many places of scripture to prove fundamentall points of doctrine of our religion But I shewed how the holie Fathers agreed with scripture to which you are silent 150. But that you doe not proceed after the self same manner is plaine For though you abound with wrested places of scripture which we admit of all in their true sence Yet you denie the interpretation of the Fathers interpreting the scripture that by common consent and your owne graunt should better vnderstand them then you And wee doe not admit of scriptures as a sufficient proofe by themselves but togither with the interpretation of the holy Fathers of whom by your own words you should admit of since you prefer their wisdome truth and holynes before your selfe 151. Wherfore then M. H. A. would you have me beleeve you alleaging onely scripture for your self iâ— sense depraved before the holy Fathers that cite scriptures both for them and
compared vvith Tob. 15. 18. 1. Maccab. 6. 16. vvith 2. Mac. 1. 16. 2. Macc. 1. 19. vvith 2. King 25. Iudith 9. 2. 3. vvith Gen. 49. 5. 6. Esth. apopcryph 12. 5. 6. vvith Esth. can 6. 3. and 3. 2. Esth. apoc 11. 2. vvith Esth. can 2. 16. besides their Popes determinations for making and vvorshiping of similitudes or images of silver and gold wood and stone hethenlike for having the vvorship of God and scriptures in a barbarous tongue vvhich the people understand not and many the like are expressly contrary to the commandements of God as any man of common judgment may evidently preceive yea some of their Popes have repeled the decrees one of another as before hath been manifested Eightly The summ of our faith learned from holy scriptures is to trust on God and Christ alone for mercy and salvation not on creatures as Angels and souls of men nor on our selves or humane merits vvhereby vve resting on God have and doo profess to have ful assurance of our salvation and so have peace of conscience in life and death But Popish faith learned by tradition teacheth men not to trust on God and Christ alone but on the intercession of creatures and Pardons of Popes and on their own merits also for salvatioÌ„ vvhereby their coÌ„sciences accusing them they neyther have nor profess to have such peace by full assurance that they are heyres of God unto salvation as vve nay they rage against this truth as against an heresie Ninthly The holy scriptures vvhich vve rest vpon are of such power and authority that many thowsands in their ages have given their lives for the defense of them and of the things taught onely in them yea even hereticks have dyed for things vvhich they have erroneously thought to be in the scriptures reveled But for Papists they cannot shew many if any that have vvillingly given their lives for such doctrines as have onely bene taught by men by unwritten popish tradition and not in their judgment by the prophetical and Apostolical scriptures Tenthly the Holy scriptures vvhich are the rule of our faith have prophesies of things to come and due accomplishments of the prophesies as they vvere foretold vvhereby vve are confirmed of the truth and infallibility of those vvritings But the vvritings of Doctors Councils Popes on vvhich Papists rely are destitute of this confirmation Neyther dooth the Pope use to prophesie though it vvere necessary if he vvould as Christs vicar obtrude his ovvn decrees for divine oracles seing the testimony of Iesus is the spirit of prophesie as the Angel sayd Rev. 19. 10. Nay rather the prophesies of scripture plainly foreshew the Church of Rome to be the whore of Babylon and her Lord the Pope to be Antichrist Which he fearing it wil come to light forbiddeth therfore his subjects the reading of Gods book Eleventhly Papists themselves are forced in disputing against Iewes which were once Gods church and from which they themselves with us received the books of Moses and the Prophets to use onely the holy scriptures and prophesies to convince them for their Romish church traditions the Iewes doo not regard With these scriptures the Papists doo rightly think the Iewes are sufficiently convicted Even so doo we much more having the scriptures of the new Testament added to the old rightly hold it sufficient to convince the Papists by the written vvord vvhich they acknowledge to be of God and they have no more reason to refuse this and draw us to their Popes decretals then the Iewes have to refuse the Bible and draw men to their high preists Rabbies and Thalmuds or the Turkes to their Alkoran 12. Finally grace vvisdom and divine majesty appeareth in the holy scriptures to all that read them except they have a reprobate sense even by the confession of our adversaries But no such vvisdom grace or majesty appeareth in Popes decrétals more then in other humane vvritings yea they are full of ignorance grossnes barbarisme error favouring of the Popes private spirit as any of understanding unless they be the Popes bondmen vvil confess and no singular grace appeareth in them more then in the books of H. N. or Alkoran of Mahomet For all vvhich and sundry other like reasons vvhich might be alleged every reasonable infidel vvhom God vvill save vvill rather incline to our grounds of ancient Christianity then to the other of late Iesuitisme or Popery Let him that readeth consider and give sentence By this vvhich hath bene vvritten you may see M. I. A. that we fly not for proof to our privat spirit as you often slander us but we say a Papist may be couvinced by the wisdome and majesty of God shining in the scriptures and other arguments forementioned more easily then an Atheist can be convinced by the wisdom and majesty of God shining in the creatures And if this later were sufficient by th'Apostles testimony to condemn the hethens the former must needs be more sufficient to condemn you especially seing you confess the scriptures to be of GOD vvhereas the Atheist will not confess the world to be of God and yet you dare not abide the trial of your religion by this book of God without your own traditions and decrees also Whereas if you graunt a Turk to be tried by the Bible and his Alkoran or a Iew to be tried by the Prophets and his Thalmud you will betray all Christianity And when one ask you a reason vvhy you beleeve the scriptures or any doctrine to be of God you answer that extrinsiâ—ally that is outwardly and in respect of your selves it is because your church that is the Pope vvho is head of your church telleth you so and not by your own private spirit Which is as if one should ask vvhy you beleeve the sun to be the light of the vvorld and you should answer extrinsecally because the Pope tells you so and not because of any private sight or discerning in your own eyes Ask you agayn vvhither you know the Pope to be a man of God furnished vvith his grace and spirit that he cannot deceive you You answer we hold not that the Pope is necessarily indued with Gods holy grace for in matter of faâ—t he may syn as wel as any other Ask you agayn how then you trust such vile ungracious Popes as many have been by your own mens testimony you answer you hold the Pope hath a necessary assistance of the holy Ghost as he defines ex cathedra out of his chayr as the head of the church Ask you a proof of this paradox and you cannot bring any one line of Gods holy scriptures to confirme it you can neythâ—r find the Pope nor his chayr there mentioned any more then Mahomâ—t or the Alkoran Then you flee to late humane testimonies of Doctors Fathers Councils vvhich also you vvrest Yet ask you vvhither those Doctors vvere necessarily indued vvith the spirit of God could not
church propoundeth vnto vâ— to be bâ—leeved so the church counsells holy fathers Doctors foâ—ders of all orders teacheth us so in that the death of so many thowsand Martyrs confirmes it so so many thowsand miracles wrought in the confirmation of it witneseth it so So that we may justly and confidently say with Richardâ— be sanetâ— Victore lib. 1. de â—riâ—â—tate Nam cum omni fiducia ideò dicere poterimus Domine si error est a teipso decepti sumus Nam ista taÌ„tis signis et prodigijs confirmata sunt et talibus quae non nisi per â—e fieri possunt Ponder and waigh well Mr. Ainsworth these few lines I send you for I wish froÌ„ the bottome of my hart your soules good and that your eyes were opened to see the errour wherein you have lived and the more earnestly I wish it vnto you for country name sake and alliaunce and that those good talents of naturall vnderstanding and learning God hath indowed you withall should not serve as heapers up of your greater condeÌ„natioÌ„ if you should dye out of the Romane catholick church which God of his infirâ—te mercy forbidd To whom I shall pray that he will of his free infusion of his holy grace inlighten your vnderstanding to see the truth and incline your will with all fervour and zeale to imbrace it From Justice hall in Newgate the 22. of September stilo veteri 1609. Your freind most desirous to give you satisfaction to work your conversion Iohn Aynsworth The answer to the former writing To Mr Iohn Aynsworth in Justice hall in Newgate Grace and understanding from God our Father and Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour I Perceive by your second writing Mr Ainsworth your readie inclination to controvert the differences between you and us about the grounds of our religions wherto as in my first I signified I also am willing for your or others good to condescend and prosequute as leysure â—erveth me God guide me in this my enterprise and blesse my labours unto you The first thing which both of us were to agree upon that we wrastled not in vain was how our differences shall be tried and composed whether by the verdict of God as I hold or of man Herevnto after you have set down certayn generall things required that a man may elicit a supernaturall act of faith which hereafter if need be may be seanned you returne me this word I answer you directly enough though with a distinction viz. that if you vnderstand by what formal motive we shal be tried in our beleefe I answer by the verdict of Gods written and unwritten word but if you asâ— who shall determine our faith after a propounding manner so we say the Church concurreth after the manner of an applying conditioÌ„ teaching what is canonicall and that which is not authentiâ— This answer which you think direct enough seemeth unto me very intricate and full of fear I had thought never to have meâ—t with a man professing the religion of God that would eyther deney the differences of religion to be tried composed by the verdict of God or that would doubt to answer such a demaund without a distinction when to a simple hart there is no doublenes or ambiguitie Again you distinguish with such terms as doo rather dimm the light then clear the same for these words formal motive to determine after a propounding manner to toucurr after the manner of an applying condition c. are more ambiguous â—hen the thing it self propounded and distinguished So were I disposed to folow this game we should hâ—re even at first fall into contention and strife of words which the holy Ghost hath forbidden with earnest protestation From this course I signified before that I would be farr and will therefore plainly confirm that I hold wishing you to weigh it in equitie That God onely is to be the umpier and arbiter of all questions and coÌ„troversies about religion is manifested thus 1. Because himself commaundeth us his people to take heed that we doo as the Lord our God hath commaunded us not turning aside to the right hand or to the left not putting any thing thereto nor taking ought therefrom 2. Because the corruption of man is so great as naturally he understandeth not the things of God neyther can he know them which lamentable experience dayly dooth confirm mans wisdom is foolishnes and enimitie against God Wherupon all voluntarie religion and humane precepts in divine worship are condemned as vain and fruitless 3 Because men being dead in trespasses and synns are quickned onely of God and doo live by faith without which we cannot please God and faith is by hearing hearing by the word of God Wherfore without Gods word we caÌ„not in faith assure our selves of any point of doctrine neither caÌ„ our questioÌ„s of religioÌ„ â—ouÌ„dly without it be determined 4. Because the Preists and Prophets of God were bound to heare the word froÌ„ Gods mouth and give the people warning froÌ„ him not for to prophesie out of their own hart or â—oâ—ow their own spirit Also in cases of controversie to teach them according to the law and judge according to the judgements of God Wherefore the verdict of God is the onely true triall and touchilone of religion all other are ballances of deceit The sonns of base-mâ—n are vanitie the sonns of noble men are falâ—itie in the ballances they are togither leighter then vanitie it self But the Lord giveth wisdom out of his mouth coÌ„meth knowledge understanding every good giving and every perfect gift is from above and cometh down from the father of lights Had I to deal with an Atheist or Paynim I would use other grounds but writing to you a professor of Christ it is enough to lay down such principles as all of Christian religion will confesse The second thing we were to accord of was where this verdict of God is to be found whether in the scriptures of the old and new testament which is my faith or in the writings and mouthes of other men To this I have not your direct answer as I expected yet you manifest your mind in that you take upon you to prove That onely the bare text of the scripture is not a sufficieÌ„t rule of our faith I wil first breifly confirm that which I set down and then I will answer your arguments In many parts and in many sorts sayth the holy Ghost God having spokeÌ„ of old time to the Fathers by the Prophets hath in these last daies spoken to us by the Son which Son having witnesse of the former prophets writings chose also special men to be witnesses of his doctrines and actions unto the world both by word and writing Who haue testified unto us that whatsoever God promised to the fathers he hath fulfilled unto us by the Son and have opened by the propheticall scriptures
therfore unlesse you vvil renounce Christ and make Peter your Rock your God your Saviour that layd down his life for you to give you eternal life you cannot make him that one Pastor over the one fold of Iewes and Gentiles Wherfore neyther thrise nor yet once is Peter honoured with the stile of universal Pastor but onely is charged to feed Christs sheep as other Pastors also are required our Lord Iesus the great Pastor of the sheep hath given not one but many Pastors for this work Ephe. 4. 11. Having heard your reasons for Peters headship I exspected somewhat for your Popes pretended primacie but for this you shew no evidence froÌ„ Gods book you have none I trow so ancient Wherfore your position That the Popes definitive sentence as he is head of the church is an indeficient rule in matters of faith is farr as yet froÌ„ being proved And though this preeminence were yeilded for Cephas yet would I not grant the like for Caiaphas though Peter vvere the Rock on which Christs Church is builded yet your house may be situate on the sands for ought you have sayd to perswade the contrarie But let us see what the 3. point in your letter wil afford which now next foloweth Lastly and breifly you take upon you to shew that your Romane church is the true and onely catholik church of God that holy citie Apoc. 21. c. And first your church you say is catholik for in your memory you onely are catholiks in so much that the name catholik was hateful to a puritan or a protestant citing Beza D. Humfrie Sutcliff c. Your reason hath no weight What if others should say your church is the whore of Babylon Apoc. 17. because in their memory you only are lovers of that whore in so much that the name whore is hateful to a puritan or protestant Would you approve of this argumeÌ„t Yea but it is you say against the article of our beleef to deney the catholik church I answer we beleeve ther is a catholik that is an universal church no puritan or protestant I think denyes it But that your church of Rome or any other particular church in the world should be the universal or catholik church neyther faith nor reason dooth perswade Wherfore the auctors whom you cite mought vvel blame you for taking to your selves that ambitious title which never was given you of God If therfore you speak let it be as the words of God and if by his word you can say any thing to help you shâ—w it and by his grace I will hear Otherwise your assumed name Catholik moves me no more then the name Apostolik Prâ—â—tegiani corruptly called Prester John among the Ethâ—â—pians I know the Apostle Paul gave the church in Rome no such swelling title when he wrote therunto and if you would have your church called by a new name you should let the mouth of the Lord name it as sayth the Prophet Isa 62 2. except you would have it noted to be none of his Secondly you say your church is an ancient church and God is more ancient then the Divil truth then falshood c I grant your church is ancient but I deney it to be the most ancient Seing then the most ancient by your own grant is the most true bring â—orth the testimonies of your antiquitie and if in the particulars I shew more ancient testimonie then yow I will yeild But you procedâ— say If yow grant that once our church was the true church but stâ—ce it hath swarved from her ancient purity shew which Pope first gave place to the dâ—fects c. I grant there was a true church in Rome in tâ— Apostles dayes so was there in Ierusalem in Ephesus Corinth Colosse other cities many What their faith estate vvas I see in the most ancient records the Apostles aâ—s letters unto them What yowr faith estate is I see also by your late council of Trident other bâ—oks of yours maynteyning a religion unheard of in â—h Apostles dayes as in the particulars vvhen they come to be scanned after vve have ended these general grounds in hand I doubt not but to manifest Hovv Rome is come to be Lady mistresse of al churches I knovv not by any ancient record of the Apostles save by that mysterie opened unto Iohn in the vvildernes Apoc. 17. And if your Popes lives vvere in Gods record as were the Kings of Israel I could easily thevv which Pope first gave place to the defects c. but seing they are not recorded by him I vvil not preâ—ume above that vvhich is vvritten If upon mens report I should centure them I mought doo many good men vvrong They that are dead are gone to thâ—ir judgmeÌ„t have stood or fallen unto the Lord you that are livâ—ng must ansvvâ—r for your selves and your present state vvhich if you can not vvarrant by the vvord of God vvho liveth indu â—eth for ever your dead mens bones vvil be but slender pillars co underprop your church This I am sure of and testify unto you Our Saviour and his Apostles forecold of false prophets and of greivous vvolves that should come soon after and not spare the flock Who vvas the first vvolf in Ephesus vvho the first in Rome c I can not tel out if our Lord have given vs a true rule ye shall knovv them by their fruits vve may knovv your Pope not to be head of the Church unlesse of Antichrists your church it self to be Cos bi-bath tsur Falsitie daughter of a rock but not of Christ. Be not offended at my plain dealing vvith you it is a case of conscience and concerneth your salvation and my ovvn and I vvish your vvelfare as my ovvn Your conclusion neaping many praises upon your church many dispraises upon oâ—ns others that have forsaken her remayns hereafter unto due trial vvhen having finished these first questions begun you shall set dovvn arguments from Gods vvord eyther for your selves or against us In the mean time I obsâ—rve your dispute against us to have no more vveight or colour then as if the AEdomites or Ismaelites elder brethren to tâ—â— Israelites should have alleged their outvvard carnal privileges possessions against their poor brother Iaakob in AEgyptian bondage and after a pilgrim in the vvildernes or as if the Scribes and Pharisees should have pleaded for Annas and Caiaphas and their proceedings from Deut. 33 8 11. and other scriptures many against Iesus of Nazareth and his disciples I knovv he magnificence and pomp of the false church dazeleth the eyes of many her sorceries bevvitch many her fornications destroy many but her cup is ful of the vvine of vvrath and her lovers shal be cormented vvith her but those vvhom God loveth shal be delivered from her Wherefore serch in the book of God and read let his law be your light and make
not fleth your arm seâ—k wisdom as silver serch for her as for treasures so God may be intreated to shew you the way of life that you may escape from hâ—l beneath Which grace I wish and shall doo my andevour to procure unto you So rest I your freind for all Christian help to my power Henry Ainsworth Your letter I received the beginning of this moneth December 1609. and I write this the 23. of the same stilo veteri From Amsterdam Iohn Aynsworths reply To Mr Henry Ainsworth in Amsterdam Site audierit lucratus eris fratrem tuum S. Math. 18. I Perceive now by your second writing Mr Ainsworth your readynes to write but your vnreadynes to answer all the groundes of my discourse For where as still I pressed you with the authority vniform consent of those that lived in the Apostles times and were their schollers When I vrge you with the authoritie and most ancient record of hystories When we bring against you the whole body of councells and holy fathers the whole schoole of Doctors When we vrge you with the assertions of Luther Câ—lvin Beza I well Whitaker Hooker pillars nay first founders of the protestant religion out of whose neare withered stock the Brâ—wâ—â—sts are newly budded and even in the bud remaine as blasted by the breath of their own parents You think this answer sufficient that they were all men all dust and ashes and so erred saying lâ—t the fathers sleep As though the whole world had bene in a dead stâ—ep of error vntill this present age As though the Apostles own disciples that sucked knowledge froÌ„ their mouths had need to be discipled of you for their dangerous errors As though the Apostles themselves Dionisius Areopagita Egesippus Polycarpus Irenaeus Gregor Nazianz. Chrys. Tertul. S. Cypr S. Ambrose S. Hiâ—r S. Augustin were all deceived all hoodwincut so long in â—rror yea that the whole church that was promised to be the pillar of tâ—… that was seated on a roch should be swallowed up of hell gatâ—s for a thowsand five hundred yeares contrarn to the firm promise of our Saviour yea that Luther Calvin Bâ—za Iâ—wel Whitaker Humfrey c. these tymes grand Iurie men and Doctors were all d. câ—â—ved in giving up their verdicts And so decrived that they are of you implicitly condemned as hereticks Surely such a verdict can never win credit before any bar or tribunall in the world where so many eye and eare witnesses cannot be heard evidences and records of above a thowsand yeares of age are not admitted as currant where infinite Doctors and professors are refused in their own sciences to be beleeved When our adversaries own fathers freindes and adherents are held as partial and all testimonies of what condition soever braved with this that they were all but men that thâ—y have all erred What doe you Mr Ainsworth but teach me a way to answer whatsoever you can bring For I can say you are onely dust and ashes onely a man and lichlier sure to err then all they that have lived before you and then all men that live in this age with you Pardâ—n me in dealing so roundly with you for it proceeds through no aversion towards your person but onely to demonstrate the truth of my cause and the insufficiencie of your answer Now to descend down more particularly vnto your answer you â—arp first at my proceeding which I thought by a distinction direct enough at which you except as though direct and distinct are not in the sense I take them all one and so then to answer by a distinction is to give a direct or a distinct answer But you are like one that is even wearied ere ever he sets forth foot in journey therfore to make your journey the shorter you would conceive it onely in a continued and dead way deluding therby your self with imagination that your journey is shorter And therefore I think you in a confuse dealing seeme more fearful of the way to run then I that consider the questioÌ„ we are to handle by distinct points dividing my answer by the eye of judgement into distinct portions And therfore I answer you againe when you demaund of me what shall decide al controversies in religion whether the word of God or of man I answer you directly enough that by Gods written and unwritten word as by a formal motive we are to be tried and by the catholick church as by a propounding manner by way of circumstance necessarily required to show what is authentick and what is not canonica And so I hope this answer is direct and plaine ynough Aske a Philosopher what burneth and he wil tell you the fire and his qualitie but demaund how approximation of the subject concurreth without which the fire never naturally burneth and he wil tell you it is condicio sine qua non most necessarily required Ask a Philosopher who gives power to some hidden herb vnknowen to have his operation he will answer the nature of the herbe principally but what doth determine it hic et nunc to work he will answer the art knowledge of the herbalist that findeth out the secret nature of the herbe showes how it is to be applied and vsed to have his due operation So here I answer that Gods written and vnwritten word formally and principally causeth vs to beleeve but the church that propoundeth it as Gods word concurreth as an applying circumstaÌ„ce the church being the treasury of all truth the mediâ—â—â—e against all maladies the â—howse of truth showeth vs vnfalliblie what is to be beleeved and what is not And therfore you wonder without cause that I should answer by a distinction definition and distinction being the two eyes or guides of reason But now to proceed to the matter I intend briefly to show how my reasons that I gave to prove my assertion viz That onely the scripture is not a sufficient rule and an infallible guide of faith remaine yet for all your pretended answer in firme force unshaken 2. I intend to show how your reasons deduced out of the holy scriptures are not reasons in that they are wrested from that sense in which the holy Ghost spake them or meant them 3. As occasion shall offer I will touch your answer to the other questions leaving the exact and direct handling therof vntill this controversie in hand be ended First then you set down the first argumeÌ„t which I brought thus Nothing is to be beleeved that is not taught or manifestly gathered out of the written word But that the Bible is canonical is not taught or gathered out of the written word therfore it is not to be beleeved that the Bible is canonicall Mark then how Mr Ainsworth smooths up the matter that he hath giveÌ„ a sufficient answer when he answers that the pillars of our propositions are earth ashes and therfore the whole frame of my Argument lieth in the dust
dependeth of the knowledge of a skilfull lapidary and yet the knowledge of the lapidary dependeth of the excellent nature and quallity of the stone So we answer that the Church doth formally depend on the word of God that showes she is taught in all truth and yet the word of God doth depend of the determination â— definition of the church And therfore S. Augustin said that he would not beleeve the scripture to be scripture without the authority of the church And at this answer in effect you wonder that any one would have the faith of God to be tried by any other then by the written word of God therfore eyther give me leave to be of S. Augustins mind or leave to mervaile onely at me since that great Doctor and holy father doth give the lilie occasion to you of wonder Now unto your Corolarium that bad rhetorick and not solid reason gathered out from hence that my faith and hope is grounded on the Spiders vveb I answer that it is not seated on a webb but on a rock against which all heretical persecutions perswasions blasphemies which is as hell gates shal never prevaile For my resolution account of faith that I told you I was one day to give before the tribunal of God was no other theÌ„ this which S. Augustin gives where he sayes In ecclesia catholica etc. In the catholick church doth keep me the consent and agreement of so many people and nations the authoritie of the same church began by miracles nourished with hope increased with charitie confirmâ—d and established by antiquitie In the same catholick church doth also hold mâ— the succession of Bishops froÌ„ the sea of the Apostle S. Peter to whom Christ our Lord after his resurrection commended the feâ—ding of his flock continued vnto him who at this present occupieth this place And lastly doth keep me the very name catholik which not without cause amongst so many hereticks this onely church doth so obteyn as although all herâ—ticks doe pretend vamly to be termed Catholicks yet if any stranger doe chaunce to demand which is the church of the catholicks there is no heretick so impudent as dareth showe eyther his house or synagogue And thus far S. Augustin himself taught me what answer of my faith I shall make before the eternall tribunall of God But when you shall come there to give account of your faith the best that you can allege for your self is that you thought judged it so that your private spirit interpreted it so though against the hight of nature in very many points against al antiquitie of time consent and vnitie of doctrine against the whole streame of holy fathers learned Doctors and most true expesiters Who now I pray you putts trust in man and makes flesh his arm Who are taught novv by the precepts of men Who but you are led by their ovvn inventioÌ„s spirits and illusions Who but you commits idolatrie in worshipping the golden calfe the idol of your own invention Therfore I wil coÌ„clude with your saying took out of the Psalm 73 26. The rocâ— oâ— my hart who is my portion for ever preserve me and deliver you frâ—m that sâ—ylla of Calvnustical profession and from that devoâ—â—ing charibdis those syrtes and quicksands of Brownisme and Puâ—itanical brotherhood where men make shipwrack of their faith and soules The secoÌ„d arg you examin of mine to prove that the bâ—â—e â— naked word cannot be an infallible rule or square of faith you prâ—pound it out of my writings thus That which is difficult includeth many senses at least to the ignorant can not bee a certaine rule of faith But the scriptures are thus My antecedent you admit proved by Tertullian S. Hierome and S. Peter himselfe whose place you onely examin the others you turne over as you are woont deeming theÌ„ vnworthy of your consideration You examine that of S. Peter now where he sayes that in S. Pauls epistles are certaine things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and the unstable deprave as also the rest of the scriptures to their owne perdition Here you except against me that I say many things in sted of certaine where in deed I cited onely the sense of that place propouÌ„ding it as the ProtestaÌ„ts vse for yours and their advantage meaning so tacitè to prevent an objection For they answer here that S. Paules epistles are not hard but that many things in theÌ„ are hard For the Greek copies have en hois that is in which things and some read en hais in which epistles And wheras you object that I say all the rest of the scripture in stead of also the rest of scripture I answer the holy Ghost may very well speak generally since the very plainest places of scripture have bene wrested to bolster up heresies Thirdly you say that this testimony proves scarse the first part of my antecedent that scriptures are onely difficult but you say it doth not prove that scriptures cannot be an indeficient rule of faith I answer that it proves both For in what doth S. Peter say that S. Paul is hard but concerning many points of our faith and religion as concerning predestination reprobation vocation of the gentiles justification by faith Of which high mysteries S. Paul is the cheif and principall Maister And as for the example of the artizeÌ„ you bring makes much against you For if an unstâ—â—lfull Mathematician or sea man knoweth not the right vse of the Astrolabe or crosse staffe the missing of a hayres breadth in the right using thereof makes him judge wrong of the object infinitely almost although the instrument in it self be most true And if the Physitian misse the right Dose though he gives the right ingredients he is liklier to kill then to minister help So if a man misse of the right judgement sense of those places of scripture touching predestination reprobation c. the corruption of that place is able to turne all the other places of scripture that leaues that way into his owne nature But now here to your reply that not all but onely some places of scripture are difficult and hard though we see the contrary by experience since Luther Zuinglius Calvin Berengar have stumbled at the plainest places of scripture viz. This is my body yea they stumbled there at though S. John explicates also most plainely that place when he sayes Caro mea verè est cibus et sanguis mens verè est potus My flesh is truely meat and my blood is truely drinck For Luther will have them one way to be understood â—uinglius another Berâ—garius an other and Calvâ— another Neyther can the paralleling comparing of one place of scripture with another râ—n dy this or satisfy the infinite difficults that arise out of holy scripture As that of the 2. Regum 23. 11. The feild is sayd to be full of lentills But the 1 Parall 11. 13.
speak playn to simple mens understanding but al the holy Prophets and Apostles could not or would not speak to the capacitie of the simple so you make them the greatest deceivers of soules in the world a pagan mought justly scorn our heavenly law if it be a leaden rule a nos◠of wax◠as some have blasphemed it But hogs esteme draffe better then pearls though the wisdom of God powreth out her minde unto them yet in them is fulfilled the true proverb wherfore is ther a price in the hand of the fool to get wisdom he hath none hart Prov 17. 16. But where may we think to find the place of wisdom if it be not in the Prophets Apostles writings For touching these points you speak of if a man read the late Fathers Augustine Ambrose the rest he shall find them often dark difficult intricate contradicting themselves sometimes and one another And if he compare your Popes determinations with the holy scriptures he shall find as good agreement as between harp and harrow For example Gods plain law sayth Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing or any similitude of things that are in heaven above or in earth beneath c. thou shalt not bow down to them neyther serv them and agayn Cursed be the man that shal make a graven or a molten thing the abomination of the Lord the work of the hands of the artificer and shal set it in a secret place al the people shal answer and say Amen These evident scriptures may perswade every simple hart that it is a fearful syn to make worship similitudes of God of Christ and of Saincts departed or any the like Now let him come to your catholik churches interpretation and read your Cardinals glosse that such scriptures reprechend idolatrie that is to say the worshiping of images which are esteemed for Gods or by which they are worshiped for Gods which indeed are not but as for the Images of Christ of saincts they are to be worshiped and not onely by accident unproperly but also by themselves and properly so as they doe terminate or end the worship as in themselves they are considered and not onely as they bear the part of the exemplar or person represented and let him read your learned distinctions of the worship latria the worship dulia and hyperdulia and other like schole points digged out of the abisme of the rock of Rome the man wil be amazed to find such comments upō such a text and make him ween his witts be not his own But I make no doubt ther be thowsands and ten thowsands upon earth that if they read Moses law and your churches comments upō this point they wil say Moses is surer and playner easier to understand then your Cardinal a great deal And as of this so of other things many that to leav the scriptures and rely upon your church determinations were to blow out the candle that men may see by the snuff Moreover if that cannot be an indeficient rule of faith wherin some things ar hard to be understood then doubtlesse your ◠assertion is overthrown which sayth that the scriptures expounded by the catholik church is a true indeficient rule of our faith For by the catholik church you mean the Roman Ch◠and in the Roman church you restreyn al to the Pope now his expositiō dooth often times as wel clear the truth as a cloud before the sun Yea even the playnest places which in holy writ are as bright as noon day your church hath enveloped with AEgyptian darknes as Mariage honorable among al and the bed undefiled sayth the text Heb. 13. 4. If among all sayth * your glosse comprehendeth al men wholly then mariage shal be honorable also between father and daughter betweē mother and son between brother and sister c. Drink ye al of this sayth our saviour Let a man examine himself sayth the Apostle and so let him eat of this bread drink of this cup. We yet see not sayth your quick eyed Cardinal that place of the gospel wher we be taught that both parts of the sacrament of our Lords supper are to be ministred to al Christians For our Lord sayth not Drink ye al Christians of this but drink ye al of this c. Such catholik expositiōs doe illustrate the scriptures as the smoke of the pit did the sun aier Apoc. 9. 2. But me thinks you deney that the Pope hath dominion over your faith neyther can make what he wil as a matter of faith or tradition He dooth not make a matter of faith you say but beelareth onely that such and such a thing is to be beleeved It is wel if you can keep you here for if he be but a declarer of the faith he is by office but as al other Bishops and ministers of the Gospel and Peters primacie wil be no more then Pauls who sayd Let a man so think of us as of the ministers of Christ disposers or stewards of the mysteries of God But if the Pope have not indeed dominion over your faith then I trow men may trie his declarations by Christs word who hath dominion over our faith and sowles Then are not the Popes declarations authentik canonical of necessitie to be beleeved unlesse he prove them by the scriptures which himself acknowledgeth to be divine and canonical And thus the scriptures wil be found a sufficient rule of the Churches faith men must by the word and spirit trye the spirits of the Popes as wel as of other Bishops Otherweise when Pope Stephen the 6. repealed the decrees of P. Formosus and condemned his acts and contrariweise P. Romanus and other his successors justified Formosus and condemned Stephen and yet after that agayn P. Sergius the 3. allowed Stephen and cōdemned Formosus as your own records doo report how should men know what Popes decrees to follow if they may not examine them by the book of God nor have better stay for their faith then the wethercock of the Vatican And wheras you speak of all humane helps that the Pope useth of counsel and consultation with the learned they be fayr shewes but your Cardinal tels us that the catholik church hath alwayes beleeved that he is a true ecclesiastical Prince in the whol church who can of his own auctoritie vvithout consent of the people or counsel of Preists make lavves vvhich bind the conscience can judge in causes ecclesiastical c. and that vvhen he teacheth the vvhol church in things perteyning to faith he can not err by any hap or chance and not onely in matters of faith but in preceps of manners also prescribed to the vvhol church he cannot err What marvel is it then though your Lavvyers say His bare vvill must be holden as a lavv and that whatsoever he dooth no man
writing yea you might better have scaÌ„ned first and answered that place cited by me out of hâ—lâ— S. Chrysost on the 2. of the Thess. oratione 4. Stand and keep your traditions where the holy Father sayes it is plain the holie Fathers did not deliver all things vp â—â—istle but many things without writing and those things also are worthâ— of faith and S. Chrysost sayes Est traditio nihil quâ—ras ampâ—ius which wordes are so playn that they made Or Iâ—wâ—l to say they were words unworthy so hâ—lp a father And that S. Ambrose did approve of tradition is plain out of his 34 sermon on Lent where he reproving those that would keep certaine dayes after Lent when this after fâ—st was neither as the feast of Lent neither delivered by the authoritie of our antestors So that we see if wee should but give Mr. H. A. the Sâ—â—cons place but to put oile into our lampes he would adde his dust and askes to quench it rather 〈◊〉 contemning still as he doth the authoritie of the holy Fathers in terming their authoritie produceâ— against him dust and ashes 17. Mr. Henry Aynsworth objects against me that I have turned over his third and fourth Arguments oâ— reasons denying them to prove that which they were cited for I answer I possed them over But see here Mr â— A. hath turned them off the ladder to their last dâ—steniâ— not showing that they proved ought what he intended by them we may suppose his reasons were wounded to death in the answerâ—â— the former oâ— like runaâ—ates have forsaken their armes that of â—â—â—ted barely before but one appeareth in his likeness I hope ouâ— adversarie will acknowledge or amend his slight dealing herein 18. The second part that Iam to prove is that the rule of our faith is not onely the written word but joyntly the unwritteÌ„ word of God tradition and the authoritie of the church councells and Fathers is the ultimate decyder of all matters of controveâ—ste This I prove first thus That which was the totall rule of our faith before the written word of God may be well the partiall rule of our faith after where the written word of God doth not sufficiently eâ—â—ressâ— divers mysteries of us to be beleeved But traditioÌ„ was a sufficient yea and the total rule of our faith til Moses tyme the first 〈◊〉 in of the holy ghost go tradition now togither with the written word is a sufficieÌ„t rule of our faith My major through out this whole tract shal be proved My minor is graunted by Mr H. A. 20. Secondly Not onely before the law of Moses men weâ—â— wholly directed by the month of tradition but after also as it appeares in Deut. 3â— verse 7. Ask thy fatners and they shall annantiate unto thee ask thy auncestors and they shall tell thee showing that of many thinges that were to be beleeved wee should depend of the instruction of our auncestors for in the wordes young 〈◊〉 diatâ—â—y before that is implied coâ—â—ra generationes singulas and Psal. 43 1. Oh Lord we have heard with our eares our fathers have 〈◊〉 unto us that which thou hast wrought in their dayes and in the ancients dayes Prov 8 1. Heare oh sonne the discipline of thy father and doe not leave the law of thy mother Isa. 38 19. The father shall make knowen to his sonne this truth where truth discipline showes rather matters of discipline and doctrine then matters of fact as Mr H. A. would interpret and Jere. 6 16. Stand upon the wayes and see ask of the ancient pathes what is the right way and walk in it and ye shall find rest unto your souls which is playne there that the Prophet doth not onely speak of matter of faith but to prevent error and 〈◊〉 of doctrine also see Eccles 8 11. 4 Esdr. 14 3. 2 Tim. 2 15. 1 Tim. 6 20 2. Tim. 2 1. what can be hence inferrâ—d but that the Israâ—lites and Christians were to be directed by the help of traditions See the holy fathers so firme and so frequent for this great truth that falshood it self of our adversaries cannot tell how to oppose see 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cited before number 16. 〈◊〉 in the â—ere of our Lord 80 lib. 3. â— 4. calles tradition dives deposicoâ—um a rich treasurie or â—usrodie Eâ—emens 〈◊〉 lib. â— Strema â— 4 in the yeare 200 say is that the knowledge of traditisÌ„ by succession is come from the Apostles et lib. 7 Stromat â— 9. he calls unwritten tradition the 〈◊〉 of truth Origenes in the yeare 240 in his 5. 〈◊〉 in Numeros et trâ—â—t 29 in Math teacheth that wee beleeve and doe many things by tradition S. Athanasius in his epistle ad Epiâ—tâ—te tuâ— sayes That it is sufficient to answer to his adversaries that it is not the doctrine of the Catholick church that the holy fathers have not thought so S. Basil also sayes he can beleeve many things by the unwritten witness of the Apostles the 2. Councel of 〈◊〉 in actione 7. approves the authoritie of unwritten traditions D. â—ier in the yeare 390 in his dialogue contra Lucifer affirmes that for his part if ther were no scripture yet the consent of the whole church were sufficient And S. August De baptismo contra Donatistas lib. 7. c. 53 affirmes that which the universal church holdes neyther is it instituted but was ever reteyned we may judge most rightly to be delivered by the Apostles idem epist. 86. ad â—asul Yea if our adversaries testimonie is availeable in confirming a truth against themselves for us See how Martin Luther in his Lypsick disp submits himself to the judgment and determination of the holy church and in his epist. ad Marchionâ—â— Brandeburg which is to be found in his second in Germane language folio 2 3. He is not ashamed to say it is an horrible thing to heare or say that which is contrarie to the uniforme testimonie of faith and the doctrine of the holy Catholick church that from above a thowsand with uniform consent she had kept John Calvin in his book against Pigâ—â—ius bragâ—ingly but with dissimulation affirms that he would not refuse the triall of the universall Church and warrant of tradition Phil. Melancthon in his epist. ad Frâ—der Myream De locis veteris Theol de caena Domini affirmes that it is not safe to depart from the consent of the ancient church and in his epistle ad Iohannem Cratonem vâ—â—tatista he confesseth that doubt in a mans conscience is a tortuâ—er and that the vniversall consent of doctrine must prevaile for confirming of a truth and he graunts that the best Masters are Irenae us Tertullian and S. Augustin that have left many monuments of truth for us to whom they did adjoyne the rule of faith the suffrages of the learned the consent of the Apostolicall churches and this is that which he affirms they deduced from the
that there is more Majestie in Ecclesiastes then in the Ecclesiasticus How will Luther demonstrate against the whole church that S. James epistle is strawie the epistle to the Hebrewes Apocalyps etc. to be doubted of 40. When I object against you that the Maniâ—hâ—i Montanist Arrian Peâ—agian and all other hereticks will boast of this private spirit Nou answer that I have a mist before my eyes or else I would discerne them I answer I doe distinguish them and leave them 〈◊〉 by the church of God to the pit of hell but not by my private spirit but by the ordinarie meanes the definitions and declarations of the church whose office is to distinguish these spirits infalliblie whose doctrine wee are punctuallie to follow if wee will have in all things this spirit of truth and with one answer I satisfie the multiplicitie of places of scripture he apâ—d vp to no purpose 41. Wheras you would whet the edge of the Jewes sword against mâ— in that they may object against Christians the lawe and the Prophets yea and antiquitie I answer the lawe and Prophets yea antiquitie it self promising our Saviours coÌ„â—ing and fulfilled by his coÌ„ming in each particular cirstumstance prophâ—â—ied and promised doth rebat the edge And I could show out of the 〈◊〉 â—abbines themselves Sâ—hillaes prophecies preaching of S. John Baptist conversion of S Paul the destruction of Jerusalem their â—â—rse and continued dispersion onely to be justly inflicted on them for truâ—â—fying of our Saviour I could shew strange motives of their 〈◊〉 errouâ— Neither can the Jew as you object as we against the â—urk or and Hâ—râ—sie our beginâ—er beginning increase and declyning estate For the Jewes can show our beginner their Messias our beginning he buriall of the cerâ—monial law propheâ—ied and performed by all titles of truth but who can justly shew our declining estate 42. Neyther is the objection of a Jew against a new Christian because he went out of them of such force as our is against Julâ—an or any other Apostata For they cannot defend themselves with any show of truth as we can defend our cause with evident motives of â—râ—dibilitie as I shall hereafter show And Julian might object that Paganismâ— is more ancient then Christianitiâ— but not then the 〈◊〉 law which was compleat and â—erfected as it was prophecied and promised by the coming of the new lawe Where you say Gods word and spirit in the scriptures must be the bulwark I answer a bulwark but not able to defend you from gun shot and a sâ—onse onely for your selves For as yet there was never any of your sects protestant or any other heretitâ— that was able to convert any nation to their religion But men of our religion haue converted all nations doe still convert as well witnesseth both the Judges Japonia yea and Câ—ina it self 43. I showed you one way how the high preisthood did not erre in the condâ—mnation of our Saviour in that the Preisthood was â—â—served in Christ Jesus person True it is the Hipghpreists Scribes Rulers questioned this but their ignorance was most viâ—â—ible by their own lawe and by that lawe he should live since that law declared him to be the sonne of God 44. Against your forced rock and running over many wrâ—sted places of scripture to prove the church of God invisible it were sufficient for me to oppose many evident and clear places of scripture interpreted by the holy fathers Greek and Latin for the pepetuall visibilitie of the church 2. 〈◊〉 â— v 13. 1. Paâ—â—l 22 10. Psal 4â— 17 Psal. 45 5. Psal. 47. 9. Psal. 86. 1. Psal. 88 29 Psal. 101 17. Ps. 128 1. Psal. 131 14. Cant. 3 4. Isa. 9 7. Isa. 33 20. where the perpetual flourishing of the church of God is described Isa. 40 8. Isa. 59 21. Isa. 60 â—9 where it is said the Sun and Moon of the church shall not cease Jer. 6 16. Dan. 2 44. Ose. 2 19. where God is described to espouse eternally his espouse unto him Mich 4 1. wher the church is described to be a high seated mountain to whom all people have recourse Mat. 5 15. where the citie seated on a hil can not be obscured Math 26. 18. where the church is described to be built upon a rock against which hell gates shall not prevaile 28. Math. 2. Our Saviour sayes he will be with his disciples to the end of the world Luâ— 1 32. Luâ— 21. 32. Luk. 22 31. Where Christ sayes he prayed for S Peter that his faith should not fail him Joh. 14. 1â— He sayes the father shall give them another spirit which shall remaine with them eternally John 17 11. Act. 5 38. Ephe. 4 11. yea and the Creed made by the Apostles doth acknowledge the perpetuall flourishing of the church of God I beleeve the catholick church whose generalitie can not stand without visibilitie 45 I answer to your contrarie doctrine that the church of God never since it was a church hath erred If Genes 6. ther was then a church AdaÌ„ the head did err in fact not in doctrine if we should graunt that he did err our adversaries are bound as wel as wee to answer since not onely the visible church then with us but the invisible church with them should have erred But true it is that thers was then no perfect church but onely a materiall and a formall beginning of a church 46. To that of Gen. 6. where all their harts are described to be set on mischeef is not to be understood that all then were naught For not long before Mâ—â—husalem and divers holy men died Sem Jâ—phet also were zealous of Gods honour and their wives also most religious in whom the church of God might be preserved 47. I answer also In the time of Moses Aaron and the people did commit idolatrie in worshipping the golden â—alfe yet Moses the head of all and all the Levites were free from that sinne So that wee read Erod 32. If there be any of God sayes Moses let him joâ—ne with mee and all the sonnes of Levi were gathered vnto him 48. I answer In the time of Judges after Josh. The Israelites are described as though they had sinned al which is an usual figurative speech of Syâ—echdoche of the whole for the part as Exod. 9 6. wher it is sayd all the beasts of Egypt are dead Isa. 2. v. All nations shal flow unto him Phil. 2 21. All men seek their own Ioh. 3. v. 33. And no man did receive his testimonie 49. To that of the Prophet Elias 3. Reg. 19. where Elias complaines that he is left alone I answer that then the people were divided into two kingdomes the one of the Jewes and the other of the Israelites Aâ—hab did govern the Israelites but holy Josaphat did govern the Jewes the one did destroy altars and kill Prophets the other did heare Prophets erect altars And
horrible errors go the scriptures though directed by the private spirits interpretatioÌ„ cannot be a rule of faith My major is most certaine My Minor is also certainely knowen since ther was never yet any heresie so absurd or monstrous that did not pretend to vse for his weapon cited places of scripture and their collations as the Arrians Pelagians Semipelagians Lutheranists Calvinists go that private spirits interpretation cannot be a certain rule to all 90 To this Argument you saie I have put to much strength but you say I have not whet the edge All that you can bring against me is that you saie you can retort it on the private spirit of the Popes determinations and definitions but you can not deme but that the churâ—h hath more promises and so consequently her visible head as I shall prove And so I see howsoever you would not be cut with the edge you care not much to admit a fore bruife by the blowes And it is the greatest disgrace a man can have still to be drie beaten as you confesse you are and are sure to be But for your virtuall retorsion I shall actually answer you in his due place 91. That you object out of the 1. Cor. 11 19. Act. 15. 1 2. Act. 15 15 16. etc. proves rather that there must be one visible supreme judge to decide controversies As for your calumniations they are most proper to men of your coat and ranck and when time place and paper wil scarse give sufficieÌ„t vent to our reasons I wonder you should blow abroad these glassy bubbles breathed against the Sea Apostolick But the best that you can answer is that they will serv your children of Amsterdam to run after I never return your jests but provoked by you Where you say that counsels and Fathers may be racked to favour heresie as well as the scriptures I deney that they can be but that the vniforme and generall consent of the church may easily distinguish them 92. My Fourth Argument as I take was this THere be many things we beleeve by a divine and not by a humaine art of faith which are not revealed in holy scripture nor with such evideÌ„ce deduced out of holy scriptures if you exempt the authoritie of the church My antecedent I proved by instances that we beleeve against Helvidius our Ladies perpetuall virginitie that God the holy Ghost proceedes from God the Father and the sonne as from one beginning the twelve articles of our beleefe as they â—â—e the abstayning from strangled meat baptising of infants relebration of the Sabaoth on Sunday and not on Satterday the receiving fasting and kneeling â—c All which I did urge against you You answer you have sufficient proof of these things that ar of faith but you show neither scripture or denie them to be beleeved with a divine aâ—t of faith or give reason why we practise other things out of scripture contrarie to the practise of the primitive church 93. And when I have twice or thrise desired a distinct answer â—o eaâ—â— particular you would satisfiâ—â—â—e with your marvaile that I would have you enter battaile with the Arrians Anti-Trinitarians 〈◊〉 and have you convince them by scriptures And with great reason I prove I urge this For since you adventure to assigne an adâ—quate rule of faith you are bound to show me how this rule of yours is able to mainteyne it self against whosoever and to distinguish truth from falshood as I offer to doe by my assigned rule So that this is not to put on foot new questions but it is properly 〈◊〉 presse the footing of our cheife questions answer 94. You proceed and would have me to mainteyne Tradition to be the totall and not the partial rule of faith togither with the written word of God Hence you inferr that I graunt some word of God without tradition to be knowen I answer the word of God as it is extrinsecall the word of God and to be knowen of vs depends of tradition and the authoritie of the church Though intrinsecallie and in it self it is the word of God though it be knowen to none so that you may see in what sense I make tradition to be the rule of faith and apostolicall tradition also I affirme to be also the word of God though unwritten 95. Here make you a long digression and you show what acts kept by tradition are to be kept and to be remembred to children after ages as you say to see the destruction of Rome but we knowe certainly the opposers by their oppositioÌ„ will work themselves their destruction and confusion of their Babylon And we know that Balaam in stedd of cursing Gods people did blesse them John Fox was your Nabucodonosor turned so out to grasse that he durst not come neare the wall by reason of a deep mellancholie apprehension for feare of being crased like an vrinall As for the spanish Armadoe whatsoever the Spaniards intended to doe here in England our Countrymen did performe much at Cales howsoever they ded speed at Lisborne before I answer onely this God and St. George for my religion King and Countreymen I would doe that which befitted a good subject but these your instances are malitious and odious 96. To that plaine place 2. Thes 2. v. 15. Therefore brethren stand and hold the traditions which you have learned whether it be by word of mouth or by epistle This place is so playne that S. Chrysost affirms S. Paul herein to have meant of unwritten traditions that Doct. Whitaker sayes his speech is herein very unworthy so holy a father And that which you bring out of S Chrysostom against me showes that all sufficient precepts of manners and good life are set down in scripture That which you bring out of the 26. of the Acts 22 we say that in tradition nothing is spoken besides that is contrarie to the Apostles speeches As for that which you bring the 1. of the Cor. 14 37. is nothing to the purpose For we doe not deny but those things that are written are true But if you would have more plain places of scripture in defense of tradition â—â—s the 15. of the Acts 41. Where he in confirming of the church commands them to keep the precepts of the Apostles and what precepts S Paul meanes he explaines himself chap. 16. v. 4. He delivered unto them to keep the decrees that were decreed of the Apostles and auncients that were at Hierusalem which deliverie without question were by word of mouth what these decrees were it is uncertain by scriptura though they may be kept by the help of tradition 98. The fourth thing that I am to show is to prove how you walk in a vitious circle proving the selfe same by the selfe same as the authoritie of the scripture by your private spirit and your privat spirit by the authority of the scripture by which manner of proof you may prove any thing 99
vvord spirit Your own hand writing therefore convinceth you of vntruth not me of bad conscience as you charge me I did and doo cal it a bastard phrase as being of your own or of the Popes begetting for th'Apostle Peter neyther spake nor meant so You add to his vvords and therfore are reproved of God Prov. 30. 6. you swary from your authentik Latin translation and therefore are reproved by your own canon law I proved by the scriptures Ephe. 4. 4. Rom. 12. 4. c. 1 Cor. 12. 4. 8. 9. c. that there is but one spirit which al Gods people have though in divers mesures as mans body hath but one soul or spirit to quicken it This you not being able to deny doo vvind away and except though it be the same fowl yet it worketh otherwise in the head then in the foot etc I answer it is very true You inferr then that so it belongs to the head of the church and not to every craftsman to interpret scriptures Why are ther no members in a mans body between the head and the heels that you make such a leap Is there no mean between the head and every craftsman What place then is there for your Cardinals Bishops Preists Doctors Iesuits c. they are not the head of the church yet you think them higher then the feet But if this your answer be good then though Peter were head as you erroneously think I hope the spirit wrought otherwise in him then it did in that divil incarnate Pope Iohn the 22. and in other your monstrous vvicked Popes as your own friends doo vvitnes against them Then had those beasts a private spirit vvorse then any an honest craftsman then it belonged not to them to interpret scriptures No nor to your Preists and Iesuits unless you vvill make them heads A little after touching Pope Stephen vvho repeled the decrees of his predecessor Pope Formosus you vvould have him to doo this not as the head of the church but out of the violencie of his private spirit I like vvell of your answer and think the very same of all the Popes traditions and therefore the privat spirit vvhich so oft you entwite me vvith I return into your own hands to be kept as the Popes Depositum You pretend that for all the vvickednes of some Popes God hath stil preserved the unity of faith in your church And that never any Pope by his definitive sentence did define heresie I answer if the Pope may be judge as vvith you he is I vvarrant you he vvill never condemn himself of heresie But if Gods word be judge many heresies are easy to be found in your late council of Trent and in many Popes decrees Which vvill come to be scanned in particular doctrines after these generall grounds are ended Your digression to another vvriter I omitt you may seek answer if you please of himself And your author â—o vvhom you send me for satisfaction about your Popes power of dispensations I shall read vvhen I have leysure therto Your 3. Argument you set down now upon your memorie otherweise then ever before thus That which hath still been a rule to theÌ„ that have erred cannot be a certayn rule to direct all in faith But the scripture interpreted by the private spirit as every one pretends given from God hath led many into dangerous and horrible errors go the scriptures though directed by the private spirits interpretation cannot be a rule of faith I answer your conclusion I grant though your argument be naught for the private spirit wee found whileare to be the violent spirit of the Pope or his like And scripture directed or rather perverted by such a spirit cannot in deed be a rule of faith Against your 2. Proposition I except it implieth a fallacie putting that for the cause which is not the cause The scriptures never led any into errour but vnlearned and unstable persons pervert all scriptures as the Apostle sayth unto their own destructioÌ„ the cause hereof is not the scriptures but mens corruption The Pharisees perverted the doctrines spoken by our Saviour Christ himselfe yet I hope you will not deny but his heavenly words was a certayn rule to direct all in faith So the proof of your minor faileth you Against your first proposition which you say is most certayn I except as not playn and so deceitfull That which is a rule to them that err understanding of it own nature and properly cannot be a certayn rule to direct all in faith But now to assume that the scripture is such were blasphemie Agayn That which is a rule to them that err to weet a rule by accident through their ignorance or malice abusing it cannot be a certayn rule to direct al Gods people in faith now I deny the proposition and leave you to give proof of these things in your next And whither before or now you have drie-beaten mee as you boast let the lookers on give verdict Your 4. argument you omit through oversight I suppose onely whâ—r I shewed by 1. Cor. 11. 19. Act. 15. c. that contentions were in the Apostles times and composed by the scriptures not by setting up a supremejudge or Pope Yow answer barely they prove rather theâ— must be one visible supreme judge to decide controversies Wee are thâ—n at a point Let him that readeth the scriptures and reasons which I there alleged judge whither of the two they doo rather prove Your 5. which yow call your 4. argument is that we beleeve many things which are not reveled in holy scripture c. I told yow and tell yow agayne that I doo not howsoever yow may beleeve any thing needful for my salvation which is not reveled in the Holy scriptures neyther wil I use other weapons against Arians Anabaptists or any heretiks that acknowledge the scriptures to be of God This therfore is no argument to convince me at all You insult for that I will not shewe my particular proofs against those heresies I told you this were to digress from our present controversie Propose yow arguments and I will answer you for the cause in hand els multiplie not words in vaine You now plainly answer that Gods vvord as it is extrinsecal the vvord of God and to be knovvn of us depends of tradition and the authoritie of the church This I reject as an heresie For vvhen vve read or hear the books of Moses or the Prophets vve read that vvhich is spoken to us of God Mark. 1â— 26. compared vvith Math. 22 31. that vvhich the Spirit of God speaketh to the churches Rev. 2 â— 11. novv not to beleeve or rest upon this ground but to rely upon mans record is to make the testimony or man greater extrinsecally to us then the testimonie of God contrarie to 1. Ioh. 5 9. and maketh men lyable to the curse Ier. 17. 5. You
Pet. 1. 24. 25. Finally you are farr from an uniforme consent of the fathers to prove your haeretical assertion Though many of them were mistaken in some things yet were they not so senseless as to beleeve that graceless reprobate Popes must needs have such grace as to desine nothing but truth out of their chair But you that have abused the holy scriptures as I have proved what wrong wil you not doo to the fathers You are moved I see with my free applying of the scriptures that speak of Antichrist unto your Pope I am content to bear your contempt but I must call evil evil and faithfully witness what God hath manifested though men gnaw their tongues for payn You goe about to prove that the Pope is not Antichrist First for then it should folow that hel gates have prevayld against Gods church many 100. yeres c. I answer nay For it is prophesied the woman the church should flee into the wildernes where God should feed her 1260. dayes Rev. 12. 6. which may be so many prophetical yeares as Dan. 9. 24. though therefore the church was persecuted into secret places yet hel prevayled not agaynst it In the old world the church was but in that one familie of Noah Gen. 6. 1. Pet. 3. 20. And Christ likeneth these last dayes vnto those Mat. 24. 37. Agayn you except how many martyrs Doctors c. in offring up homage to the beast should broyl in hel c. I answer this is no proof if it were as you inferr But howsoever it is true the sowl that synneth shall dye yet in many things we syn all and the blood of Iesus Christ clenseth us from all syn except the syn against the holy Ghost even from our secret synns Although therefore many Doctors helped vp Antichrist vnawares yet doubt I not but Gods mercy hath superabounded above all their syn and saved them for they did it ignorantly Your 2. reason is Antichrist shal be one particular man as Ioh. 5. 43. another shal come in his own name so he is opposed by Christ person to person c. but the Popes are many successively And 2 Thes. 2. he is caled the man of syn c. I answer when Christ sayd Another shal come he meant not one persoÌ„ but many of one kind successivly My reasons are first because he sayd elswhere many shal come in my name saying I am Christ and there shal arise false Christs false Prophets Secondly because Antichrist is described as a Beast Rev. 13. which beast in the Prophets signifieth a kingdom and many persons of one sort as is sayd in Dan. 7. 23. the fourth beast shal be the fourth kingdom c. So the Lion vvas for all the Kinges of Babylon the Bear for all the Kings of Persia c. Dan. 7. 4. 5. so by proportion that deformed beast Rev. 1â— for all Popes Thirdly because the word Allos another vvhich Christ useth often noteth many particular men of one kind as in Ioh. 4. 37. one soweth and another reapeth which he expoundeth in the next words v. 38. other man laboured meaning the Prophets and ye my Apostles enter into their labours And thus the man of syn though he be one person at once yet successively meaneth many as when Christ sayth Ioh. 10. 10. the theef coÌ„meth not but to steal he restreyneth it not to one theef in person alwayes but meaneth every theef whensoever he coÌ„meth Fourthly Antichrist cannot be one singular man as you think because he must reign at least 1000. yeres as may be gathered by Rev. 20. 4. vvhere the godly vvhich worshiped not the Beast lived reigned with Christ 1000. yeres during vvhich time the Beast persecuted and kylled them also by the vvomans lying hid in the vvildernes so many dayes Rev. 12. Your 3. reason is Antichrist shal be of the tribe of Dan as Gen. 49. 17. Dan shal be a serpent c. Ier. 8. 16. the neyghing of horses was heard from Dan. c. I answer first you shew no reason that this is meant properly of Antichrist And if figuratively it is nothing to the purpose for Antiochus Nabuchodonosor and others figured him also Secondly Iakobsprophefie which was a blessing and not a curse as Antichrist is vvas literally meant of Samson a man of that tribe caled therefore Bedan 1 Sam. 12. 11. vvho for his subtile vndermining of the Philistins vvas likened to a serpent Iudg. 14. c. And thus the Chalde paraphrast on that place expoundeth it saying There shall be a man which shall be chosen rise out of the house of Dan vvhose fear shal fal vpon the peoples and he shall valiantly smite the Philistians as an adder as an asp he shal lye in wayt by the path he shal sâ—ay the strong horsmen in the host of the Philistians c. That of 〈◊〉 8. is meant properly of vvarrs in those costs of Dan in those times not of Antichrist now as the vvhole scope of the scripture there manifesteth Your 4. reason is Antichrist shal oppugn the misteries of our saviour 1 Ioh. 2. 22. and extol himself above all that is sayd God 2. Thes. 2 I answer this is true in your Popes for they oppugn Christ in his office of prophesie preisthood and kingdom in their heretical doctrine of mans merits mass sacrifice purgatorie c. and in making lawes for the church in forbidding people the holy scriptures in their mother tongue and many the like Though this is doon vnder colour of meeknes and holynes for the beast hath 2. hornes like the lamb as if he were Christs own vicar Rev. 13. 11. If you rest not in the scripture let S. Bernard move you who vvitnessed that the Beast in the Revelation which hath a mouth speaking blasphemies occupied Peters chayr Your 5 reason is The 7. mountayns in Rev. 17. are sayd to be 7. Kings none of vvhith agree vvith the Pope I answer yes the seventh agrees very vvel For the woman is the great city Rome Rev. 17. 18. the beast on vvhich she rideth hath 7. heads vvhich are expounded there to be both 7. mountains and 7. Kings Rev. 17. 3. 9 The 7. mountayns ar famous through the world as Palatinus Capitolinus Aventinus Esquilinus Caelius Viminalis Quirinalâ—s on vvhich mountayns Rome was builded The 7. Kings are also the 7. goverments of Rome renoumed also in histories As by Kings by Consuls by Decemiviri by Dictators by Triumviri by Caesars by forreyn Emperours and Popes Therefore vvhen Iohn vvrote the five first vvere fallen removed Rev. â—7 10. and one sayth he is namely the sixt by the Caesars and another is not yet come vvhich vvas the forrayn Emperors as Trajan the Spanyard and the like who vvhen they came should continue but a vvhile Constantine going to Bizantium and the Empire being overâ—un by the barbarous Gothes c. And the Beast sayth
as the holy fathers interpret is made by a private Spirit interpretation Thirdly I argue and by my argument I break the force of a pretended answer thus Not onely scriptures by themselves are not sufficient to prove what is Canonicall and what is not but also that scriptures helped by private mens interpretation are not sufficient to prove the same For they doe not onely allow of private learned mens interpretation but the poorest handycrafts man or the sillpest huswife that is they doc allow to interpret the hardest places of scripture to shoulder the vniforme consent of all the fathers Doctors and schoolemen with some fond toyes of their owne braine and invention yea to give their glosse of those places of S. Paul where he speakes of justification and predestination whereas they should â—â—y Oh altit ido sapientiae et scientiae Dei quaÌ„ incoÌ„prehensibilia sunt judicia ejus â— When as they should rather rely on the auncient Fathers exposition S. Hierome in his old yeares went as farre as Alâ—randria to heare Didimus S. Hier. ad Paul Epist 103. c. 5. 67. vsed such hard discipline retirement into the desert abstineÌ„ce for obteyâ—ing the tâ—ue interpretation of the holy scripture How should we beleeve each private handycrafts manns censure and his silly interpretation against the vniforme consent of the holy Fathers against the streâ—me of the learned of all ages But admit they should have iâ— warâ—ly that speaking spirit to satisfy themselves how should a man be perswaded they it to be a lanterne unto others stepps Nay how will they prove against their adversaries that they also have not that motion of the spirit and though we should graunt they be illuminated in the truth of oneâ—â—ysterie how shall we know with like certainty all other different mysteries But you will answer out of the 1. Cor. 2. Spiritualis autem homo judicat omnia ipse autem a neminejudicatur a spirituall man judgeth all things and he is judged of none To which I answer admit that a spirituall man knoweth something yet it doth not follow that his supernaturall insâ—â—â—â—ts extendeth it self to all things but onely to the knowledge of those for the obteyning of which that illumination was inspired For Deliseus that had a redoubled spirit of Elias sayth Domiâ—â— celavit hoc a me et non indicavit mihi Our Lord did hide this from me and did not shew it why then may not these simple soules rather feare that their private spirits defect in the declaration of some mysteries rather then the redoubled Prophet confesse â—â—s ignorance in some things Yet let us graunt that some few men should fully comprehend and penetrate the mysteries of our beleefe yet for a twofold reason we denâ— to give unto them a definitive sentence and censure of matters of faith First in that we are not so certified who these particular men be that have these especiall illuminations and illustrations and therefore we are to preferr the definitive assertion of the Popes holynesse and his counsell before uncertainty of mens inventions 2. Since that the effects of this particular illumination and assistance of the Holy Ghost is not manifested and warranted by any extraordinary workes or miracles or the like in the it were to make a desperate tender of Gods truth to point this or that man whole vinpâ—ore of any controversy in that many other men in the pretence of some few mens illuminatioÌ„s might challenge unto theÌ„selves the like prerogatives of interpretation Fourthly I argue that which by the â—ights and lanterns of your 〈◊〉 have ben wroÌ„ged in the highest degree to bolster vp heresies cannot be a true and indeficient rule of faith For what more frequeÌ„t with â—eretickes then at their fingers ends to â—ite places of scripture to back their heresies as the Arians Pelagians Luther aÌ„s and Sacramentaries The Lutherans and Calvinists both disagreeing in a maine point of the real presence the one holding Christs pretious havy and blood to be really and corporall in the Sacrament though with a certayn companation and the other holding Christ to be present with a signification onely and yet both cite scripture both of theÌ„ yet â—â—â—ing scripture for scripture John Knell of Kent led with this private spirit denyed Christ to have tooken flesh of our B. Lady William Cowbridge sayes Bishops have no more authority then Priests pag. â—70 and yet by and by ledâ— vp the selfe same spirit sayd that Christs name was a filthy name Alanus Copus Dialog 6 c. 17. John Mesel denyed the holy Ghost to proceed from the Father pag. 1151. Frith the excellent Martyr of John For pag. 942 943 944 affirmeth the reall presence to be no Article of beleefe affirmative or negative John of Teurbury that the Iewes of good zeale did put Christ to death pag. 9â—5 Fiftly and lastly Iargue many mysteries of our faith are beleeved that are not 〈◊〉 declared in the word of God nor so infalliblie prescinding from all traditions of the catholike church deduced thence so that they are sufficient to make one beleeve that witâ— so firme an act as our faith requireth therefore that which makes those mysteries worthy of constaÌ„t beleefe is a rule of faith as wel as the written word whither they be traditions Divine or Apostolicall My antecedent may castly without all just contradiction be proued in that till Moses the virtuous steps and perfect acts of Noe Abraham Melchisedech was guided without the helpe of any written word by the hand of tradition derived from mouth to mouth from man to man yea after the witteÌ„ word it appeares by Erod 14. Narrabis filio tuo in illa die dicens hoc est quod fecit Dominus c Deut. 32. Interroga patrem tuum et annuntiabit tibi majores et dicent tibi Iob. 8. Interroga generationem pristinam et diligenter investiga memoriam patrum And not onely they of the old law but also they of the newe even after the coÌ„ming of our Saviour were without a written word the Apostles and disciples being busied in preaching and instructing viva voce Besides many things we beleeve though we have not the warrant of a written word for it viz. that there was a remedie for women children as well as for men to purge them of originall sin and something to be used to men children if they were ready to â—y before the 8. day which was the prefixt time of circumcision and that such a parcell of writing was scripture and such not Moreover wee beleeve constantly against the condemned heresy of Delvidius yea and against as it were the seeming letter of the scripture where it is sayd that Joseph knew not our blessed Lady til she brought forth her first sonne Now every one knowes the phrase of the Hebrue word know as Abraham knew Sara and yet we fâ—â—â—nly beleeve according to the prescript of the church that she was a perpetual Oirgin ante partum in
partu et post partuÌ„ Besides the equallitie of three persons and their processions to Nestorius will not easily be proved or to an Arian if you stand onely to a writteÌ„ word for he will cite scripture for himselfe Pater major est me and if you say that is to be vnderstood onely in regard of his humanity and not in regard of his divinity he will bid you prove that by the written word and what place of scripture soever you shal bring he wil answer it with an other to his own purpose The like will the Annabaâ—tist doe about the baptisting of infants How will you without tradition prove the procession of the holy Ghost from God the Father and the Sonne as from one onely fountayne How wil they justify the not keeping of the Sunday on Saturday with the Jewes the receiving of the sacraments fasting the eating of blood and strangled meat prohibited in the Actes of the Apostles How can they cat a black pudding without the help of tradition since they know it is forbidden by the written word and no writte word found plainely to license it Therefore S. Paul seing how necessarie the vse of traditions were in Gods church so ofteÌ„ coÌ„mendeth it unto vs. Therefore brethren stand and holdthe traditions which you have learnt whether it be by word or by our 〈◊〉 Th'â—fficacy ' and force of which is so necessary by experieÌ„ce and so coÌ„ve nâ—â—t by the judgmeÌ„t of coÌ„moÌ„ sense that I wonder how men should deny the necessary vse therof For I aske if the Apostles were alive and should by word of mouth tel us the contents of many things conteyned in the scripture without all doubt with all readynes we should beleeve them why then will they not beleeve them that lived in the Apostles dayes and such holy Fathers as flourished shortly after Dyâ—â—isnis Areopagita affirmeth the Liturgie of the Masse for the dead to be an Apostolicall tradition in fine eccles Hier. c. 7. parte 3. Tertull. de corona militis S. Aug. De cura pro mortuis c. 1. D Chrvs. homil 3. in epist. ad Philipp in Morali D. Damascen sermone de defunctis initio Also the â—rcede is affirmes to be an Apostolicaâ—l tradition sic Ruffinus in exposit symboli in principio D. Hier. epistol 61. c. 9. D. Ambros. sermone 38. D. Augustinus de Symbolo ad Catech lib. 3. c. 1. Yea that traditions wâ—re of this account we may gather out of the antient Fathers of the Church We may easily gather by the irreverend speaches which Doctor Whitaker vseth against S. Chrysostom for whereas he in the 2 of the Thess. 4 graunts that traditions are as wâ—ll to be beleeved as scripture he sayth his speach was irreverend and vnworthy of a Father And wheras Euseb. lib 1. De demonstrat Euangel c. 8. sayth the Apostles did publish and propagate the fayth of Christ partly by scriptures and partly by tradiâ—iâ—â—s he breifly rejects one of the famousest recorders of antiqâ—â—ty saying his authority is not to be received Raynolds also in his conclusions aâ—â—ered to his conference 1. conclus pag. 689. Cartwr â— 8. in his defense pag. 103. affirmes that the fathers did still allow of vâ—written traditions Wherefore I will breifly conclude this point showing that a man ruled by his private spirites direction can have no faith For since they beleeve scriptures only to be scriptures in that 〈◊〉 are delivered vp by the Church why should not they theÌ„ beleeve any thing that the Church with a generall consent propouâ—â—eth as ◠〈◊〉 of our beleefe For if I beleeve the relation of my freind because my freind tells me I must beleeve all that my freind relates with the like firme assertion and with the like reason or else I doe not beleeve my freind but my owne affection that is thereunto incliâ—ed to beleeve the one and not beleeve the other No more doth no protestaÌ„t or any other sect beleeve with a supernatural act of faith for then would â—e beleeve al that the scripture propoâ—â—â—eth to be beleeved aswell as beleeve the scripture by reason it is of her propounded else they beleeve onely their private spirits dictament and fanâ—ies that hath derived unto the knowledge of many other mysteries as well as of the truth of the scriptures The second thing I am to prove breefly is that the Popes definiâ—ive sentence as he is head of the church is an indeficieÌ„r rule in matters of faith The which is proved out of Luc. 22. Simon ecce Sathan expetivit vos ut cribraret sicut triticuÌ„ ego auteÌ„ rogavi pro te ut â—ides tua non deficiat et tu aliquando conversus confirma fratres tuo Where our Saviour that is the founteyne of all grace and goodnes sayth that he hath prayed for S Peter and so coÌ„sequently for his successors since Christ speaketh of the confirmation of the Church against hell gates not onely for a tyme but for ever promising that S Peter and their faith should not faile commaunding both him and them and therefore bidding theÌ„ coÌ„firm their brethreÌ„ And that this prayer was powred forth for S. Peter and his successors appeareth â—vidâ—tly First iâ— that our Saviour points forth one particular man saying Simon Simon particularizing the speech with a pronowne of the second person saying for thee thy fayth and thy brethren 2. Though our Saviour did begin to speake in the plurall number Sathan expetivit ut cribraret vos Sathan desired to sift you immediately changeth the maÌ„ner of speech I haue prayed for thee and not for yee 3. Our Saviour prayeth for him to whom he bidds thou being converted confirme thy brethren but onely S. Peter and not the Church in generall hath brethren Besides S. Math 16. He sayth he builds his church vpon S. Peter Tues Pâ—trus et super hanc Petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam and therevpon he chaunged his name of Simon he makes him Peter and Petra and Cephas which name in the Spriaâ—k tong signifyes a rock thereby to prevent all fâ—â—volous answers to a point so clearly declared As appeareth first in that first he designes him first out by the name of his father Bar Jonas 2. by his own name Simon then doth he as it were seclude him from the rest saying super hanâ— Petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam then by the authority and preheâ—inence given him showed by the delivery of the kepes All which the auncient Fathers doe affirme with an uniform consent as Tertull lib. dâ— praescript Orig. homil 5. in Exod. Sanctus Cypr de unitate Ecclesiae S. Hyll Cano 16. in Mat. S. Ambros. sermo 47. 68. lib. 6. in cap 9. Luc. D. Hier. lib 1. in lovini S. Epiph. in Anchor S. Chrysost. homil 55. in Mat. etc. every one of them affirming expressly that the Church of God was built on S. Peter as vpon a rock Besides this our Saviour in S. John 21. gives S.
Peter the office of an vniversall Pastor saying pasce ovâ—s meas feed my flock which sounds as much as have care of my sold. But in S. John the 10. it is sayd that there is but one flock and one shepheard and therefore since he bids him thrise feed his flock he honors him thrise with the stile of an universall pastor And therefore all the fathers joyntly interpret this place of an especiall charge and dominion assigned unto S. Peter investing him thereby in the supreame seat and government of his church and by him he is installed that had all power given him in heaven above and in earth beneath Now lastly and breifly to showe that our Romane Church is the true and onely Catholike Church of God that it is that holy citie Apocal 21. v. 20. that fruitful vine Psa. 79. v. 9. that high mountayne that direct path Isâ— 35. vers 8. that onely Dove Cant 6. v. 8. that kingdome of heaven Mat. 13. v. 24. that onely spouse Cant. 4. v. 8. that mysticall body of Christ Jesu Ephes. 5. v. 23. 1 Cor. 12 v 12. that foundation and rock of the truth 1 Tim. 3. v. 15 that holy multitude to whom such speciall directions of the Holy Ghost is promised Ioh. 14. 26. that Church against which hell gates shall not prevayle Mat 16. v. 18. the which Church was prefigured by the Arlie of Noe out of which none were saved from the all drowning deluge that is that tabernacle posuit tabernaculum suum in sole a tabernacle placed in the sunne conspicuous of all to be seene It is that citie that cannot be hidd S. Math. 8. All which properties belong onely unto our Romaine Catholike Church First our church is Catholik For in my memorie first we onely are catholiks in so much that the name Catholick was hatefull to a Puritaine or a Protestant And therefore Beza in his preface novi testamenti 1565. calls the name Catholicke a vaine word D. Humfrey in vita Iuelli pag. 113. calls it a vain term Sutliff in his challenge a fruitlesse name not unlike GaudeÌ„tius the hereticke who termed the word catholick a humane fiction Vt D. Aug contra Gaudentium lib 2 c. 25 though it be against the article of our beleefe whereas S. Hier Apol. 1. adversus Ruff sayth if we agree with the Bishop of Rome go Catholici sumus â— where S. Hier makes an vnfallible note of a catholicke man to agree with the sea of Rome 2. Our Church is an auncient church and God is more auncient then the Divill truth then falshood the good seed theÌ„ the bad cockle Christs seamless coate then his rent peeces that is Christs Church concording then the division into schismes And if you graunt that once our Church was the true Church but since it hath swarved from her auncient purity and incorruption shewe I praye you which Pope first gave place to the defects by what doctrine first in what age of our Lord on what motive and occasion who openly repugned it how that defect increased But all these points we can prove on your religions and sects Wee can shewe that there was neyther Wicliff Nuss Zuther Calvin of your religion Zuther and Calvin seeme first to have broached it though with in this hundred yeares we can trace theÌ„ forth the yeares motives places increase of their religion as you may read in hystories Wee are not ignorant of the motives that made King Henry the 8. first oppose himself to the Romane church though notwithstanding in his â—ir articles he held and ratified seven sacraments of the Church and conformed himself to al points of the Romane Catholick church onely excepting the point of supremacie Wee can show so that lawful in his dayes and sworne to which of some was held blasyliemy in the latter end of King Edward the 6 dayes That also which was allowed of in his dayes in his coÌ„munion book was defâ—ed in Queen Elizabeths dayes And that in her daies that is rejected in K. James And that in his Majesties dayes now whose Highness offers his religion to be tried by the united consent of the Fathers and the 4. or 5. generall Councells whose triall both his Bishops and you we are assured dare not stand to That which the Protestants now held to be a true lanterne and touchstone of the truth you repute oâ—â—iy as a stumblinâ— block and a stincking snuffâ— We can show that interrupted duration of the Romane catholick church according to that in Daniel the 9. Regnum quod in aeternum non dissipabitur and 5. of the Arts si ex hominibus consilium hoc aut opus dissolvetur si vero ex Dâ—o non potest dissolvi Wee can show the propheâ—y of the psalmist fulfilled Dabo tibi gentes hereditatem tuam et possessionâ—m tuam tâ—minos terrae Psal 2. Et dominabitur a mariusque ad mare Wee can show multitudes of people converted to our religion in the East and west Indies in Iaponia and China by men of our religion and sent by an Apostolicall mission Wee can show how that S. Peter about the 63 year of Christ came hither into EnglaÌ„d Camden in sua descriptione Brâ—tanniae pag. 52. et Nicephorus ut pse refert We read how Pope Eleutherius sent hither anno 156. S Fugatium et Damianum who baptized King Lucius and lastly S. Augustin and his companions Moncks were sent into England and wrought the conversion thereof and that S. Gregorie whom D. HuÌ„frey so farre extolleth p. 2. â—eâ—uitis rat 5. pag. 624. Gregorius nomine quidem magnus revera magnus vir magnus et multis divinae gratiae dotibus exornatus was with his followers of our religion shall moninifestly be proved by D. Humfreys owne assertion p. 2. ratione 5. p. 626. In ecclesiam vero quid induxerunt Gregorius et Augustinus nisi onus caeremoniarum Missarum solennia et Purgatorium so that we see they held those opinions of Masse and Purgatory that of ProtestaÌ„ts is so extreamly condemned Now if we should urge you to showe the succession of your interpreters and teachers from S. Peter you will be mute but we can shewe who succeeded each Pope how long he lived what doctrines he established Lastly we can â—now all sanctity vnitie and conformity of doctrine Out of all which notes we caÌ„ gather our church to be Vnam Sanctam et Apostolicam But you can prove no one of these notes in your church And when you shal be demanded at the tribunall of Almighty God why you hold this faith you now profess you can onely answer the holy and your privat spirit told you it was so though against all antiguitie of â—yme just interpretation of scripture consent of Fathers Greek and Latin But when we shal be demanded why we beleeve in the Romane catholick church we shall answer by reason Christ himselfe teacheth vs so He that heareth you heareth me and he that contemneth you contâ—netâ— me the
spake otherweise as wanting light Our Saviours most holy doctrines vvere vvronged and depraved in the highest degree by Pharisees vvill you therfore conclude that his doctrine vvas not a true and indeficient rule of faith Bevvare of such pleading and learn rather of the Apostles vvho though men depraved the scriptures yet referred the Christians unto them as being able to make us vvise vnto salvation through the saith that is in Christ Iesus and to make the man of God absolute and perfect unto all good vvorks 2. Tim. 3 15. 1â— Fiftly and lastly you argue many mysteries of our faith 〈◊〉 beleeved that are not explicitly declared in the word of God 〈…〉 iâ—fallibly prescinding from al traditions of the catholik church 〈…〉 theÌ„ce so that they are sufficient to make one beleeve that 〈…〉 act as our faith requireth Therfore that which makes these mysteries worthy of constant beleef is a rule of faith as wel as the written word whither they be traditions divine or Apostelical The first part of this your argument I deney for neyther many nor any mysteries of our faith are without their due and sufficient proof from the holy scriptures You labour to confirm that you sayd thus because till Moses 〈…〉 word but men were taught by traditioÌ„ You allege also Exod. 14. thou shalt tel thy 〈…〉 Deut 〈◊〉 ask thy father and he wil shew thee c. Iob 8 ask the former generation c. Also how after our Saviours coÌ„ming the Apostles preached viva voce before they wrote c. Your first reason is altogither insufficient for though the scriptures could be no perfect rule of faith before they were written yet after the writing of them they mought be and so were You might as well say neyther tradition nor doctrine by lively voice could be a rule of faith before it was spoken You might also say the scriptures are not sufficient to make one beleeve any one mysterie of faith seing before Moses all mysteries were taught by voice The pattern of the Tabernacle shewed to Moses on the mount could be no perfect rule for him to build by before it was shewed Was it not therfore a perfect and sufficient pattern after it was exhibited Even so the scriptures now that they are written are a sufficient rule and assurance of our faith Ioh. 20. 31. 2 Tim. 3. 16. 17. Your other allegations out of Moses Iob wil serve much better for the Iewish traditions then for yours and confirm their Thalmud and Cabala rather then your papal decrees But the Apostles turned the Iewes from their vain conversation received by the tradition of the fathers and would not have them take heed to Iewish fables and coÌ„mandments of men that turn from the truth Our Lord also reproved the traditions of the Pharisees though received from their Elders Mat 1 2 3. c. by which you may learn God opening your hart that Israel was not left to unwritten verities for a ground of their faith but were to tel their children the works of God that they had seen and heard as we all are to doo ours and for a rule of their faith and life to teach them Gods written law This you may see by the 44. and 78. Psalms wher the fathers told their children such things as are written in the books of Moses Iosua c. which as they continued the rule ground of 〈◊〉 rough out the Prophets ages so Malachi the last Angel of the old Testament comendeth them to the memorie of the church even as from the first giving they were the inheritance of the same The power and authoritie of vvhich Lavv and Prophets vvas so great as our Saviour sayth hâ—â— that vvil not hear them neyther vvil they be persvvaded though 〈◊〉 from the dead agayn Bevvare therfore least vvhile you â—â—â—k to support traditions you supplant Christian faith for a levv vvil presse you by tradition to receive their Cabala as vvel as their prophets seing you have had these all from them cannot vvithout them by your ovvn grouÌ„ds tel vvhat is canonical scripture vvhat is not and they doâ— affirm that God gave to Moses a double lavv the one vvritten the other by vvoâ—d of mouth â—ambam 〈◊〉 Misnajoth Your particulars insisted upon for the equal 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 persons in the god hed the baptising of infant the proâ—… hâ—ly Ghost the keeping of the Lords day the lawfulnes to â—at blood c vvhich you think can not be proved by scripture without tradition shâ—w that you are too much a stranger in Gods book for it afffordeth us sufficient proof for all of thâ—se And 〈…〉 us if we 〈…〉 without sure grouÌ„ds froÌ„ scripture shame would cover our faces before Arrians Anabaptists other heretiks if we should leâ— goe our 〈◊〉 foundation to build upon your sands As for other points of Masse for the dead c vvhich you mention upon certayne fathers credit as it hath no ground in Gods book so by the same it may easilie be refuted and what God condemneth no man can justify Wheras you all 〈◊〉 2 Thes. 2. and other like testimonies for traditions I readily grant you to accept all traditions divine or Apostolical for they were the coÌ„mandements of God but your church traditions I refuse for they are the institutions of mâ—n I grant you also that Paul taught more things by word then were written in that his Epistle but that he taught any thing as needful for salvation without warrant from the scriptures I deney or that the suÌ„m and effect of all that he taught be not in the Prophets his own and other evangelical writings If you wil not beleeve me beleeve himself who testifieth that he sayd none other things then those which the Prophets Moses did say should come beleeve an other Apostle which sayth thâ—se things are written that ye might beleev c. that in beleeving ye might have life through Christs name And wheras you wonder how men should deney the necessary vse of traditions asking if we will beleeve the Apostles why then we wil not beleeve them that lived in the Apostles dayes and such holy fathers as flourished shortly of er you may stay your wonder if you consider how Paul teaâ—hâ—th that the scripture is able to make a man vvisâ— unto salvation absolute and perfect unto every good work for now there is no necessary vse of other traditions unlesse it be for works that are too good and they be I trow work of supâ—rerogation You may also answer your own question if you mind how there lived in the Apostles dayes many vain talkers and deceiveâ—s of minds many false prophets that were gone out into the world and many Antichrists and how after their departing there entred in grâ—â—vous wolves Now seing such weeds flourished shortly after in the garden of the Lord is it not more safe for us think
Then descending more particularly he answereth that my Major is too generall For he sayes many things may be beleeved though they be not gathered out of the written word so that we see he holds some tradition necessary besides the written word for he sayes to be beleeved that is with an act of faith now that which is to be beleeved must be certaine and must have also infallible most certaine motives proportionable to so firm an act and must be beleeved of those at least that are schollars who are more precisely to examine the articles of beleef then laiemen so that wee have drawen water out of the rock since you graunt that tradition is necessary to your own beleef which afterwards you deny when you say there is nothing necessarie to salvation but is taught by the written word For now I ask those many things that may be beleeved without the written word eyther have their motives infallible and sufficiently propounded so they shal be faultie if those schollers to whom they are sufficiently proposed beleeve not or else the motives that are propounded are not certaine infallible and constant and so they shall onely cause an opinion or at most a humane beleefe and not a most firme constant supernaturall art of faith that is ever most certaine and infallible caused by the written and the vnwritten word of God and the church propounding Moreover your answer is found halting when you say that there is nothing necessary unto salvation but is delivered by the writteÌ„ word which is most false since nothing with you is more necessarie unto salvation then the written word which word is not proved by an other written word for so that also by an other and so we should never have an end so that hence you must coÌ„fesse though against your position that something most necessary vnto salvation is to be belâ—eved and that without the written word now if that which is most necessary and the rule of all the rest be beleeved in that it is delivered by tradition surely things of lesse consequence though necessary to salvation may also be beleeved though ther is no written word of God to affirme it having tradition which is Gods vnwritten word tyme out of mynd to deliver it As for the proof of my Minor proposition you put down these words I cited though not learned out of Mr Hooker For if any book gives testimonie to the rest yet the scripture that gives credit to the rest would require another scripture to be credited neither could we come to any pause wheron to rest or assurance that way and if you answer that all scriptures are theopneustoi that is in pired of God I will graunt you that but I wil demaund how you prove that this book or this parcel of scripture without tradition is inspired of God For to say it is inspired of God by reason it is scripture and scripture by reason it is inspired of God is to prove idem per idem and petere principium to suppose that provâ—d which is given you to prove And besides I would know of you how you know that your interpretation is onely true But you have your answer ready ceyned you say the things of God no man knoweth but the spirit of God But how doe you prove you have the spirit of God How doe you prove you have the effect thereof in your conscience piercing more sharply then a two edged swoâ—d For the Mamchei Montanist Arian â—estorian Pelagian Semipeâ—agian Lutheran Calvinist Familist will â—ll boâ—st of this private spirit will all say they are illuminated of God that they have the spirit that discerneth all things they are able as wâ—l as you to uphold their religion with wrested peeces of the scripture Now whereas you object that the Turk câ—n urge against us their Allcoâ—ans antiquitie I answer no siâ—ce the Romane catholicke church can shewe their beginner beginning increase and their declining estate And wheras you object againe that Iulian the Apostaâ—a may offer plea with us for antiquitie I answer no since he went out of the catholick church to whose faith he was Apostata and therfore supposeth the catholik church to be more ancient then he as he particularly opposed himself against her And if it be here objected that the heatheâ—â—sme he â—â—lo is anciâ—â—ter then our Christianitie I grant all but not ancienter then Judai me For God is more ancient then the Divil truth then falshood and so those Christians that are most ancient have the most true religion Your second Objection made against this point I answer that the high Preisthood that was judge did not err in that Moses was never â—viltie of Idolatrie Moses was joint Priest with AaroÌ„ as it is recorded in the Psalmes Moses et Aaron in sacerdotibus ejus et Samuel inter eos qui invocant nomen ejus All which appeares and is most manifestly showen also in that he ordered Aaron Exod. 29 And in that there Moses is coÌ„manded to sacrificâ— Applicabis et vitulum etc. maâ— abis euÌ„ in conspect Dei etc. offeres incensum super altare And that Moses did execute al this it appeares out of Levit. 8. Likewise I answer that when our Saviour Iesus Christ was condemned the high preisthood did not err in that the high preisthood remayned in our Saviour for he was then cheif judge and decider or â—he the high preist was our Saviours superiour which ye wil not grant For that prâ—â—sthood was infallible onely till Christs coming being also clearly foretold that at his coÌ„ming the highpreist should concurr vnto his death and condemnation and so not to be directed by the holy ghost Finally wheras you would confute me by my own practise in that I râ—solve all things by the definitive sentence of the Church grounded on Christs promise to S. Peter Math. 16. that his faith should not faile and that he being converted he should confirme his brethreÌ„ all the other Apostles I answer that as our Saviour was of infinite grace and mercy to promise so he was of infinite power and fidelitie to perform Now wheras you object that I know onely this promise by Mat. 16. that by the Popes churches sâ—ntence I knovv onely S. Matthevves gospell to be canonicall and that the gospell of Nicodemus is not authenticke I grant all but I deny that here there is any maze or circle that you would fayne from hence inferr since this mutuall reference and reciprocall dependence is in diverse kindes and then Aristotle will tell you that it is no circle or vitious argumentation to demonstrate a causa ad effectum et ab effectu ad causam and a younge Philosopher wil tell you that the materia and the form doe mutually depend and reciprocally cause one an other but the one in genere subjecti and the other in genere causae formalis And as a Iewel in his prize
It is sayd to be full of baâ—iy And the 1. â—â—eg 7. 15. It is sayd that the braâ—en pillars were thirty eight cubiâ—â—â— in length and yer 2. Parall 3. 19. but thirty five Math. 1. 8. It is sayd that Joram begaâ— Qziaâ— but in the 4. book of the Kings which the Protestants call the second it is written that Joram was father to Ochozias Ochoizas to Joas Joas to Amaâ—â—â—s not Joram to Ozias otherwise called Azarias Mat. 1. 3 16. Joseph is called Jacob wheras S. Luk. 3. 23 nameth him 〈◊〉 Mat 10 10. the Apostles sent to prâ—ach are forbidden to have a â—reffe in their â—aâ—ds and yet S. Mark 6 8 baâ— them take onely a staffe or rod in their hand Mat. 26 34 and Luk. 22 34. sayth that before the cock did crow Peter should deny him thrice but S. Marke the 14. 30. sayth Christs words were Before the cock shall crowe twise thou shalt thrisâ— deny me Mar 15 25. â—ayth our Saviour was crucified at the third howre but S. John 19 14 saith it was about the sixt houre before he was condenmed by Pâ—â—ate So that you see the comparing of place onely with place often times may bring a poore man into a maze or circle except he adde to this the authoritie of the Church and the holy Fathers and the learned Doctors exposition by whose helpe all these seeming contradâ—â—tions will easily be salved Now wheras you may answer that these difficults are in matters of fact and not of doctrine so it much imports not whither a man reconcilâ—s these places or no I graunt the first but I deny the sequâ—â—â— For since you teach that al difficults of scripture may be helped by comparing of one place with another now when as ignorant men shall folow this your rule as an unfallible guide when they see themselves ledd by it vnto a contradiction they doe not onely begin to cal into question this but al other things conteyned in the scriptures seing the self same truth affirming the little as well as the great and as much abhorring from coÌ„tradiction of a litle matter as of a great The second braunch of my antecedent which I bring is that holy scriptures hath many senses litterall and spirituall yea and often many senses literrall and many senses spirituall All this you deny wonder that I doe not prove it I answer that no disputant useth to prove comoâ—mâ—â—â—mes and principles and we use not to prove coÌ„mon 〈◊〉 at most Protestants allow of viz. of a litterall and a spirituall sense the lâ—sâ— wherof they divide into three members into an all gâ—ricell tropological anagogicall sense yea and not without great cause they allow of this since D. August lib. 11. confess cap. 26 et lib. 11. De â—â—â—â—tate Dei c. 19. sayth also that the scripture often haâ— many litterall senses But you against the holy fathers held that it hath onely one sense but as you answer appliable to diverse places times and persons Here I wonder that you should be so consideÌ„tly hoveld with your own concâ—â—t and so caried away with your privat spirit that you see not that which to most manifest But even as a pigeon that is seeled in your soaring spirit you see onely the way at length to your own downfall though in your conceit you ascend bolt upright for a season But that the scripture hath many senses we leave as proved and if to prove fitter for another place Now it sufficeth for this place to show that which you graunt to sufficient to prove the second part of my antecedent For if that one sense hath reference to diverse tymes places and persons it must needes be very difficult require some common help besides themselves to obtaine their severall true expositions nay here me thinks you graunt that the scriptures hath diverse senses since you graunt diverse as it were formalities of senses respecting divers places tymes and persons Here also in prosecuting of this point you seem to mistake our doctrine For we hold that neyther Apostle or the Pope have domintoÌ„ over our faith or authoritie to institut Sacraments of themselves neyther can they make what they will as a matter of faith or tradition But it must be received tyme out of mynde by the vniform coÌ„sent of that Church which hath kept her peâ—petuall succession of Bishops from S. Peter and then S Aug. in epist. 118. will teach you that insolentissimae infaniae est existimare non certe fieri quod ab vniversa ecclesia fit that it is a most insolent madness to think that it should not be right that the whole church doth teach Besides the Pope doth not make a matter of faith but declareth onely that such and such a thing is to be beleeved and that by the inspiration of Almighty God guiding him as he is the head of the church Neyther dooth he for all this omitt to use all humane helpes of counsell and consultatioÌ„ with the learned that though as he is head of the church he hath a promise froÌ„ Almighty stil to assist him yet in that he might not seeme to presume in omitting the vse of naturall and prudentiall helpes and meanes he vseth all diligent serâ—tinp therein The place of 15. of the Acts which you examine of mine where I lay that in the counsel held at Hierusalem all was concluded with this of S. Peter the head It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us This I sayd and still averr makes much against you For here the Apostles to end the controversy in hand trusted not their own several spirits but to a mature deliberation and counsell where S. Peter was hâ—ad and vinâ—eere though he vsed an Apostolicall inguisition and therfore it is noted in the 7. verse that Peter role up showing thereby that he was head and had the preemineâ—ce of place first to speak noting also his priviledge that the first Gentills were chosen by his mouâ—h though S. Paul was designâ—d to convert them Now unto that which you 〈◊〉 that verse 13. and 14. S. James 〈◊〉 stanâ—â— all and that hence we might rather hold him head of the Church I answer that doth not hence folow in that S. James in that he was an Apostle and Bishop of HierusaleÌ„ gave his sentence nert For surely S. Paul and S. Barnabas also spake though their speach is interposed for the better declaration of the question to be decided and for the greater confirmation of S. Peters sentence And though S. James sayd in his speach I judge he doth not meane thereby that he gave the principal definitive sentence since he and all the rest followed and seconded by their suffâ—ages the decision of S. Peter as it is plaine in the text The whole assembly for reverence of his person and approbation of his sentence holding their peace The which S. Hierâ—m affirmeth saying all the multitude held their peace and into his sentence James the Apostle
institutions c. Why did they in the printed Bible 1â—62 thrust in Rom. 11. Baals image which now Bible â—595 to corrected And if every image be an idoll as they translate it why Genesis the first can we not say God created AdaÌ„ according to his own idol And that all images in the old law were idols Exod. 25. 3. Regum 6. Why doe they make the Hebrew and Greek word that signifies hell when they list onely to signify the grave Though it be against scripture it self Gen. 37. I will goe down to the grave to 〈…〉 mourning which cannot signifie though racked in sense the grave since he thought his sonne to be devoured of wild beasts and so vnburied without a grave But when the self same word Prov. 15. speakes of the danâ—ied they translate onely hell how then can the parallising and coÌ„paring of one place with an other settle all doubts of the ignorant stop the mouth of the contrarie part who shall affirm that it is not the true sense Nay if scripture be a most manifest interpreter of it self Why did Luther that affirmed before this assertion of yours in assertione articulorum 10. damnatorum retraetate and recall that opinion of his before his death in colloq conviviali titulo de verbo Dei No man can vnderstand sayes he the Bucolica of Uirgil except hâ— be first five yeares a shepheard No man can vnderstand his Gâ—oâ—â—icks except he be five yeares a husbandman so let every man know that he hath not tasted sufficiently the scriptures except he hath governed in it a hundred yeares Nay if holy scriptures be so easy of themselves to be understood why doth Luther cal the epistle of S James stramineam and vnworthy of an Apostolicall spirit Why doth Beza writing on the eight chapter call into question the whole book of S. John when he averrs that it was not probable that our Saviour was left alone in the temple with a woman or that he did write in the dust with his finger My fourth argument you being forth thus That which by the lights lanterns of your opinion hath been wronged in the highest degree to bolster up heresie can not be a true and indeficient rule of faith You geaunt my assumption and you instance it in Luther Calvin Beza Onely to answer this you think it sufficient to say it is a rhetorical flourish No flourish that by your own confession hath flonge down your strongest pillars But you say it is the fault in them which willingly I graunt but with this addition that there is the like in you And I pray you tell me if all that have gone over such a bridge being in their right senses perfect judgmeÌ„ts have bene drowned would you think that bridge remayning thus unrepaired as it is a sure safe way So if all or most that have trusted to the naked and bare word of the scripture onely and to their own witts and spirits have grossely and dangerously erred wil you hold it so remayning an vndeficient rule Nay if the bare word so coÌ„firmes them in their errors that without some one common and visible judge they stil remain stiff in their errours can the bare word be the indeficient onely and the infallible rule But that it is so dispute against the Lutheran Calvinist Zuiâ—glian Anabaptist Protestant Faâ—â—list and they wil ell â—ite place of scripture interpretation for interpretation spirit for spirit â—ieng and reâ—ying you with places and spirits dictamâ—ns telling you long stories of the communication of the holy Ghost Wherefore I will conclude breifly this argument that the naked and bare word of the scripture cannot be an infallible rule and judge sâ—…t doth not make the partie overthrowen certaine that the sentence as much as lieth in the judge is passed against him which is the propertie of the sentence of every supreme judge that his decree be plainly seen and that without all contradiction the partie overthrowen in law may yeeld unto it For else there is no end of sentence no end of judgement if the partie overthrowen may with the like probability as before recomâ—nence his suite and offer plea without any â—â—d My fift argument which you put downe thus Many misteries of our faith are beleeved which explicitely are not declared in the word of God nor so infalliblie prescinding from all traditions of the church deduted thence so as they are sufficient to make a man beleeve with so firm an act of â—aith as is required Therefore that which makes that worthy of constant beleefe is a rule of faith aswel as the written word whether they be traditious divine or Apostolicall Now to all the places I bring to prove traditions How the world was onely governed and taught by traditions till Moses tyme who was the first pen-man of the holy Ghost and to that Ero. 14. Deu. 32. 37. c. you graunt that traditions were before necessary but you deny that they are now a rule of faith But you assigne no reason but onely this in disputing as if it were the total rule of faith where I would inferr onely that it was a partial togither with the word of God And whereas you object that these traditions spoken of in Deut. might for the Jewish Cabalists which are rejected by S. Peter 1. Pet. â— Tit. 1. 14 as vain conversation and Jewish fables Is plaine against the holy scriptures Deu. 32. interroga patrem tuum et anuntiabit tibi majores tuos et dicent tibi Ask thy father c. Ero. 14. Narrabis filio tuo in illa die dicens hoc est quod fecit Dominus Et Iob. 8. Iud. 6. Psal 43. Psal. 47. Eccles. 8 where it is plaine that the holy Ghost speakes of such traditions that are good to be followed not to be estemed vain idle fabulous To that of S. Pa to the Thes. is plaine that the Apostle speakes of that which was taught by word of his mouth yea of such traditions as you call humane in vs. For when S. Chrysost. comes to explicate the 2 Thess. 2. he explicates it so plainely for such traditions as wee have in controversie that D. Whitaker de sacra scriptura pag. 678. sayes that S. Chrisost. spoke in this point inconsiderately vnworthy of so great a father Therfore S. Paul and S. Chrysost vnderstood more here by traditions then you would willingly vnderstand And that not onely things of little consequence but of greatest moment are beleeved onely by tradition I prove manifestly since the Bible can not be canonicall without it were delivered by the hand of traditioÌ„ froÌ„ tyme to tyme as authenticke And besides how can you prove the procession of God the son and God the holy Ghost from God the Father as from one beginning or the consubstantilitie of the blessed Trinitie How are you able onely by bare scripture to prove the remedie in the old law vsed to women children for original sinne and
yet doth he not manifestly contrary that he thinks the other opinion false or improbable For he ronfesseth that the whole Church in a hymne of S. Ambrose doth acknowledge that S. Peter was head and rocke of the Church Wherefore after he had proposed the coÌ„mon opinion of the Church and his private judgement In great humilitie he concludeth all Let the reader chuse whether of these two opinions is the probabler Hence we may note how ill a friend you are to S. August thus to put him on the racke and how you may inforce fathers to seeme to speake for your cause in great nuÌ„ber if you bring those that makes against you me thinks you that rely most in expositioÌ„s of scripture on still of laÌ„guages should not onely rely of S. August words here that in this for lack of skill of languages mistook a litle But this is certain that S. August in Psal. 63 et contra partes Donati calls S. Peter his successors the rock against which hell gates shall not prevaile So sapes Tertull. De praescript Orig. homil 5. in Exod. S. Cypr. De unitate Ecclesiae S. Hyllar cant 16. in Math. S. Ambr serm 47. 68. lib. 6. in c. 5 Lucae S. Chrysost. homil 55. in Math. S. Cyrill lib. 2. c. 1 2. coÌ„ment in Ioannem Lastly you produce that which I bring out of S. John 21. wher it is sayd Pasce oves meas seed my flock in which words I assumed S. Peters priviledge and power to be noted since here a Pastorall office is graunted unto S. Peter that is to feed with pasture to lead to defend to governe chasten and heale But you say that all the Apostles were alike charged here to feede But the contrary is manifest out since he sayd onely to him feed my flocke to whom he sayd before lovest thou me more then they In which words he excludeth all the others Besides Christ speakes to S. Peter that he should feed his generall flock though he may speak unto the other Apostles that they should feed their particular charges Wherefore S. Leo saith 3. anniversario assumptionis sayth Petro hoc singulariter creditur quia cunctis Ecclesiae rectoribus Petri forma praeponitur and so we may answer that in this generall charge given to Peter the particular charge implicitly was commended unto all the other Apostles And though the other Apostles were sayd to be joinet Preists with S. Peter 1. Pet. 5 1. It is spoken in regard that they were joinctly Preists in the exercise of their orders and not in regard of the preeminence of place in which respect S. Peter was head of all the rest of the Apostles though the others did joinctly labour with him in the conversion of nations Now after you have a litle smoothed up your self that you have done your part in this poinct then begin you to say that my affertioÌ„ is not sufficiently proved But as for that you might better leave it to the iudgment of the indifferent reader then to take upoÌ„ you to be pliant and juâ—â—e in the self same cause But whereas you say I lack anâ—iâ—uitie to prove the supremacie of the Pope I hope no since the Protest 〈◊〉 own Doctors teacheth that it began in the NiceaÌ„ councell and I think when we shall scan the matter how it come in then I know we shall prove it of equall age or the self same with that of S Peter But to say the truth I did not intend to prove this point of purpose but onely to give you a tast what doctrine in this we follow Therfore if in this you impugne Cardinall Bellar doctrine as it lieth you may at once impugne both that learned man and my selfe to whose learning I acknowledge my self a scholler The last thing which you examine of mine is about the name Catholicke which faine you would challenge vnto your selfe but after better consideration you seeme to refuse it because it is not warranted by the written word But why doe not you aswel reject the name Trinitie consubstantialitie three persons and one God Nay why doe you not reject as wel the Crede of the Apostles For if the church be a catholicke mother surely she hath Catholicke children of which you wil be none But you belike say with Gaudentius the hereticke that the name Catholike is a humane fiction D. August contra Gaudent lib. 2. c. 25. Or with Beza you helshe when you call it a swelling title you think it a vaine word or with Humfrey in vita Iuelli a vaine terme But you doe well since you have neyther vniversalitie of tyme place or person of the Catholicks Nor the vnitie of the Romans having such divisioÌ„s and sectaries amongst you to deny both But we can say with S. August writing upon the Psal. 65. Iubilate Deo omnis terra let the whol world not only one corner of AmsterdaÌ„ rejoyce we can show you the prophecie of Esay fulfilled in that the Gosuell is preached to all nations Gen. 2. 6. Psal. 2. Isa. 54. Mat. 28 Mat. 5 Luk. 8 Mal. 1. that the whole world is replinished with the fruit of our doctrine Neyther is this the voice of the Israelites or AEdomites against the Israelites in glorying of fleshly privileges For these are noted as principall signes of the Church of God and that if it were as invisible as your Church was it should be excelled farr by the synagogue of the Jewes that still for all their scattering have reteyned in sundry places visible meetings and congregations visible vse of their sacraments and ceremonies The which consideration made Castalio in the preface of the Bible of King Edward the â— after he had considered the promises made by our Saviour to his Church that it should be spread over all nations and that hell oates should not prevayl against it and how invisible their Church had been how unheard of the essentiall pointes of their doctrine inforced him to say that eyther these promises are to be fulfilled or that God els is a lyar This also made George David to deny the verity of the Bible in that the promised visibilitie of the Church was not performed Nay then a little to see whither wee or you make the best resolution of our faith Let vs consider that we Romane Catholicks use all meanes and apply all helpes and motives to the due eliciting of an act of faith For first we have all motives evidentiae credibilitatis required unto an act of faith Wee have all antiquitie vnitie vniversalitie visibilitie confirmed by the consent of Dortors by the institution of most holy religious orders we have the conversion of nations the power of miracles the infinite number almost of Martyrs that have sealed our doctrin through al ages with their bloods 2. wee have a certaine visible and infallible way to decide all controversies which is the Catholick Church that propoundeth what is to be beleeved and what is not 3. we have
Gods divine veracitie speaking by the mouth of the Church which formally makes vs to beleeve 4. wee have a supernaturall judgment to beleeve in common at least in that all people all nations have so beleeved And lastly through all these we have a pious affection through the working of Gods holy grace to beleeve hic et nunc hoc et illud and that without any difficult since we first beleeve there is but one true Church and that Church cannot err and so with great facilitie we beleeve ought that the Church shal propound unto vs to be beleeved But you have none of these but onely a prejudicated opinion not to beleeve ought wee say and a presumptuous spiritt to preferr pour interpretations before all the Doctors of the Church And if you would indeavour to convert any Turke Jew or Atheist you could not make him of your opinion till you had convinced him in each particular and severall poinct But when we shall come to deale with an Atheist or an infidell wee can give him such evident motives such profoundnes of reasons that even by the light of nature he may think almost that our articles of faith are worthy of beleefe and after we have perswaded him to beleeve that there is but one true church one meanes of saluation and that this Church is guided in all truth by the holy Ghost with great facilitie I can induce him to beleeve any one article of our beleef that this onely true and most firm church teacheth Let therefore any one judge whose foundation is grounded on sand who is seated on earth and ashes And as for the rellicks of the poisoned cupp they are all too blasphemonsly false if you would poure them upon us and I think they might be applied to your congregation if I would descend downe into particulars Wherefore that pour understanding may be inlightned and judgment corrected read the Bible but not onely with the scholiast of your private spirit but with the holy fathers and learned Doctors expositions Therefore I will conclude with that short exhortation S. Augustin sent unto his freind Honoratus lib De unitate Cred. c. 8. You see you have bene loue troubled with these broiles of parties in the world and now if you think your self to have bene tossed and turmoiled enough and would at length have an end of these verations folow the way of the Catholick discipline in which the prophesie of Isoia the third is fulfilled And there shal be in it a path and a way and a holy way it shal be called the befiled shall not passe by it but this to you shal be a direct way so that fooles can not nuffe if they follow it And thus Mr Ainsworth I have mainteyned my arguments answered your objections though not so spedily as I could have wished having other busynesse And now here I could wish you doe not secare lignum eadem lineà that you would when you answer me examin â— Bellarmins groundes reasons doctrine and authorities as they lie that so you may the better give your self and others satisfaction and the more worthily deserve an answer And thus with harty prayers for your conversioÌ„ I leav you the fourth of March 1610. from Justice Hall stilo veteri Your freind to give your vnderstanding the best satisfaction he can Iohn Aynsworth The answer to the former reply To Mr Iohn Aynsworth prisoner in justice hal in London Grace and mercy from our Lo. Jesus Christ. WHeras my first writing gave yow to understand that I held all differences in religion were to be tried coÌ„posed by the verdict of God wherunto I humbly submit the triall of my faith actions alwayes in my secoÌ„d because I did not see yow condescend hereunto I shewed reasons of such my perswasion yow Mr Aynsworth in your replie first taxe me with unreadynes to answer all the the grounds of your discourse secondly entwite me as one that chargeth with error them that lived in the Apostles times â— were their scholars the most ancient record of historyes the whole body of councils and holy fathers the whole schole of Doctors c. yea as one that hath implicitly condeÌ„ned for heretiks Luther Calvin Beza Jewel Whitaker Humfrey c. The first I leav to the indifferent readers judgment whither I have omitted any ground of your discourse pertinent to our present cause or yow rather have omitted of mine in your replie If yow blame me for omitting discourses impertinent I must bear it stil for still I mean so to folow the matter in hand The second I leav to your ovvn secoÌ„d consideratioÌ„ all unpartial judgment what cause yow have so to accuse me Doe I otherwise debase meÌ„ then by comparison with the most high God doe I speak of the fathers worse then the scriptures which I alledged speak of al men And wil yow match earth with heaven frayl man with God as joynt umpiers in religions controversies If not why are yow offended that I cleay to God alone that I would leav the farhers to sleep in peace which yow out of charitie doo interpret a dead sleep of errors whom yow it seems would rouse out of their graves as if yow thought to find a Samuel at Endor when the Lord himself answereth yow not by Vrim nor by Prophets And much yow mistake me if not purposely as if I thought my self not dust and ashes as they or any more priviledged froÌ„ errors then they There be thowsands of them whom yow implie as taxed of me with error whom I preferr for wisdom truth holines before my self yea I match not my self with the least of Gods servants but by the grace of God I am that I am his word not my own is that I stâ—d upon doe oppose unto all the world but I judge no man neyther wil I be judged in cases of conscience by mans day Cease yow therefore from the man whose breath is in his nosthrels for wherein is he to be estemed Or if you will not cease the truth it self out of the mouth of God and man shal force yow hereunto For in my former answer I set down fowr reasons fortified with many scriptures to prove this position That God onely is to be umpier and arbyter of all questions and controversies about religion which was the first point to be accorded between us You after you had generally censured them to be nothing but allegations of scripture falsly applied answer to the first confirmed by Deut. 5. 32. 12. 32. by denying that hence can be gathered that the holy scripture should be the onely rule or umpier of faith For say you as it dooth not follow nothing is to be added to the 4. commandement and the 4. commaund is to be observed therefore there is onely the 4. command and it is therfore the rule of all the rest The reddition of this your similitude shewes not his face perhaps least it
may say to him vvhy doe you this and that whosoever obeyes not his precepts incures the syn of idolatrie paganisme You may tell me that the Pope hath not dominion over your faith but your Canonist tel me that he can dispense against the law of God that he can dispense against the law of nature that he can dispense against an Apostle that he can dispense against the new testament yea that he can dispense concerning all the precepts of the old and nevv testament And may vve novv think that he hath not dominion over your saith or may wee think that vvhen he is come which should sit as God in the Temple of God that he wil doe greater things then these But of your Popes preeminence wee are to speak in another place To return therfore to the scripture which you deney to be an indeficient rule of our faith you objected that it had many senses and stil you stand to it as proved well I am content to leave it unto judgement But though it were so yet this is not proved that therfore it is no sure rule of our faith save by your churches exposition For why might not the church in Corinth which were made rich by Christ in all kind of speech and in all knowledge so that they were not destitute of any gift why might not that church I say declare the many senses of scripture as well as the church of Rome Or rather why may not the holy ghost shew any church or any member or Christs church the meanings of the scripture and so it remayn as a firm rule of faith and the Spirit of God the sole authentik expositor of the same But here you urge agayn your bastard phrase falsly fathered upon S. Peter that no prophesie of scripture is made by a private spirits interpretatioÌ„ though I blamed you before for speaking in such sort If you can not perceive heavenly things consider earthly Your one body hath but one spirit which gives life to the vvhole and to every member of the body The same spirit dooth quicken the hand and foot that quickneth the head and hart although a greater measure is in the principal members then in the inferiour Even so by the scriptures we learn that the catholik church is one bodie and hath one spirite and though the many members of this bodie have not one work but have received diversities of giftes yet it is the same spirit To one by the spirit is given the word of vvisdom to an other the word of knowledge by the same spirit and to an other faith by the same spirit and so all the gifts to all the members This is the most publick spirit that the church hath and every member of the church hath the same so there is no privat spirit which Christians have as you by tradition it seemes have learned Now seeing all Christians have the same spirit that the Pope himself unlesse he have the spirit of Satan how is it that he onely must be the publik spirit and interpreter of the word Because say you he is the head of the church and hath the promise of our Saviour that his faith should not fayl him This I deney Now you beleeve it because the Pope himself tells it you for your ovvn privat spirit may assure you of nothing I wil disprove it by your next words and knowen experience For you say he may err in matter of fact and syn aswell as an other man then say I he may goe to the Divil for his facts and synns as vvell as an other man then is he the successor of Iudas Iscariot not of Simon Peter then the gates of hel prevaile against him And thus your Rock is rent in peeces and your building is on the sands You rely upoÌ„ one whom you know not but he may be a reprobate a child of the Divil yea a divil incarnate as Pope Iohn the 23. was found and judged to be by the Council of Constance and then he may lye as well as his father the Divil and then if you take not heed he may murder your soul as well as his father the Divil And how then dare you make him your rock your hope your confidence to beleeve all that he sayth not to beleeve Gods word unlesse he tell you it is Gods word not to beleeve any meaning of the scriptures but as he tell you the meaning is If men were bruite beasts without understanding they could not be more overruled then thus but the Lord sayth be not as the horse and as the mule And if the inhabitants of the earth had not been druncken with the wine of her fornication the great whore could never thus have benummed their senses and bereft them of heavenly light If you deney that your Popes may be reprobates and Heariots though they may syn your own popish records will teach you by as undoubted marks upon them as ever had Cain the dearest lovers of your catholik chaire branding their holy fathers with titles of prodigious wonders monsters for their beastly lives so some of them are knowen to have dyed without repentaÌ„ce or faith in God that eyther they never had faith or els their faith failed and then Christ prayed not for them as he did for Peter so their pretended priviledge lieth in the dust The 15. of the Acts alledged for Peters primacie I have before answered and leav it unto judgment yow urge now againe vers 7. that Pâ—â—er rose up shewing therby that he was head c. a strange collection that if a man rise up to speak in an assembly he must need therfore be head you mought better have gathered so if he had sitten stil spoken for sitting of the two rather argues auctoritie then standing up But tel me I pray you in earnest when Gamaliel is sayd to rise up in the council of the Iewes in Ierusalem would you gather from this that he was the head of them all Or when Paul rose up in the synagogue of Antiochia was he therefore the head If not why dally you thus with the holy scriptures to gather such conclusions as common sense wil not bear But if you would plead for no other headship then this that your Pope may rise up and speak in councils it wil easily be granted but then if others should judge and give sentence froÌ„ the scripture as Iames there did your chair of Rome would soon be overthrown Like weight is in your next words that the first gentils were chosen by his mouth for that you should say God chose that the gentils by his mouth should hear the word of the Gospel and beleev What primacie of power you can build hereon I cannot tell order I am sure ther must be in al things so ther was with them and is with us we grant unto you
novv stands charged to be a harlot vvilbe her ovvn judge and decide the controversie her self If you grant Mahomet but this one ground for himself I vvarrant you he vvil vvin the feild And if you can prove unto me but this one ground vvhich being the question is here begged by you I vvill soon receive alâ— doctrines traditions ceremonies that your mother church propoun â—eth But I have shevved you a more certaine playn and infallible vvay the old and good vvay vvherein our Fathers* vvalked to decide all controversies by vvhich is the holy oracles of God vvritten by his Prophets and Apostles vvhich if you vvil not yeeld to vvalk in but continue in your catholik aberrations you and your church shall perish in the hovvr appointed and then shal be sayd O heaven rejoyce of her and ye holy Apostles and Prophets for God hath given your judgement not her ovvn upon her 3. You have as you say Gods divine veracitâ—e speaking by the mouth of the church which formally makes you beleeve But vve say I to you have Gods divine veracitie speaking by the mouth of his holy Prophets vvhich have been since the vvorld began and also the comandements of the Apostles of our Lord and saviour vvhich effectually make us beleeve through the spirit God vvhich is given unto us That God speaks in them is pâ—ayn and your selves grant that undoubted veracitie is in his vvords is evident and your selves dare not deney by this divine veracitie vve submitt our selves our churches our faith our actions to be tried of all But your church lifteth up her self to be her ovvn judge and lavvgiver and vvil not suffer her self to be tried by the holy scriptures Thus glorifieth thâ— her self and liveth in pleasure and sayth in her hart I sit a Queen but strong is the Lord God vvhich vvill condemn her 4. You have as you say a supernatural judgement to beleeve in common at least in that all people all nations have so beleeved You need no supernaturall judgement for this for it is a popular carnal reasoÌ„ which the natural man easily receiveth But the spiritual man by supernatural light from the law of God beleeveth in particular though all people all nations should depart from Christ because he hath the sure word of God in the scriptures and the spirit of God by a covenant froÌ„ the Lord. Isa. 59 21. And by this means he discrieth in the wildernes that woman and her mysterie how she sitteth upon many waters or peoples of whose wine the nations having drunk therfore they rage Lastly through all these you have as you say a pious affection through the working of Gods holy grace to beleeve hir et 〈◊〉 hoc et illud and that without any difficultie since you first beleeve there to but one true church and that church cannot err c. I confesse in deed you have the broad and easy vvay wherin yow run on with great facilitie if God of his grace stay you not unto your perdition For by these false grounds your minds are so bewitched that with her great craft she hath caused you to yeild with her flattering lipps hath entised you and ye folow her straightway as oxen that goe to the slaughter and as fools to the stocks for correction til a dart strike through your liveâ— as birds hastâ—â—â— to the snare not knowing that it is for their lives For by beleeving this and that as your catholik mother dooth propound and not trying nor daring to trie her propositions by the book of God you have quite lost the ancient catholik and Apostolik faith vvhich was in the Churches of God in Rome Corinth Galatia throughout all nations as whensoever you bring your opinions to the trial by Gods authentik writings will appear And though you glorie of S. Peter for your Rock as your ancestors gloried of their Father Abraham yet wil you not folow his holy playn Apostolical counsels when he referrs you to the sure word of the Prophets and to the commandements of them the Apostles of the Lord giving you warning of false teachers to come after which privily should bring in heresies of perdition whose damnable wayes many should follow by whom the way of truth should be evil spoken of What remayneth then if you proceed in this evil course but as yow cleave to your late fathers synns so you be partaker of their plagues And if you will not hearken to that voice from heaven Goe out of her my people you shall hear and feel the effect of that voice which the Angel standing in the sun crieth so lowd to al fowles of the heaven to come unto the supper of the great God wher they shall eat the fleshes of Kings and high captayns and of mighty men and of horses and horsmen of freemen and bondmen of small and great when the beast and the false prophet which deceived with miracles them that received his mark shal be cast alive into the lake of fyre burning in brimstone To save you from this perdition loe how large a letter I have written unto you this second time testifying unto you the word of God and against the erroneous grounds or quicksands rather wheron you build your faith God offring me this occasion by your self I have out of the love of my hart endevoured to save your soule froÌ„ death by shewing you the way of life choose life therfore that you may live Look into the book of God wherin you seem to me to be a stranger and pray unto him for understanding in the same so shall you find more light to your eyes more coÌ„fort to your hart then the caâ—t lodes of later Doctors Fathers Councils c. can give unto you And if you will not be warned I shal lament your estate yet whiles I may I will doo you good and as for all reproches taunts vituperies which you hav already uttered or may yet further utter against me I shal willingly bear and bury them and use all good means I can to save you from the damnation of hel God open you eyes and perswade your hart unto the sight obedience of his most holy faith â— once given unto the saincts Amen From Amsterdam this 16. of April 1610. Yours if you wil be Christs Henr Ainsworth If you have sayd what you can against the scriptures of God their alsufficiencie for mans faith you may if you please shew your strongest argumets for your Roman catholik church as you cal her and her definitive sentences Or procede if you think good to some other grounds and mayn controversies between us Onely be advertised to folow the good counsel of him whom you count the Rock of your faith If any man speak let him speak as the words of God 1. Pet. 4. 11. There being no reply
the Martyrs of the primitive church yoâ— will allow of for your Martyrs whether of S. Laurence or â—o 7. Whether you allow of Constantius the first Christian Emperour to be of your religion 8. Whether you will allow of any of our three conversions of England to have been to this religion which you now professe 9 Whether you hold that those that have died or shall die resolved Romane Catholicks have bene or shal be saved 10. Whether you will graunt the Church of Christ or the synagogue of the Jewes to be more visible or less subject to ruin and subversion 11. Whether you allow of the last edition of the protestants Bible or else what edition you propound to your flock â—â—â—etest to be folowed 12 Whether sufficiencie onely since I take you hold ordering or imposition of hands not to be vsed is to be required to make one of your teaching Elders or if onely that sufficeth not to assigne what more is required To these questions I intreat you Mr Henry Aynsworth that earnestly to give an orderly breife and distinct answer to ech one of these questions for on the resolution of these many fruitfull consequences may be gathered to make easie any poinct hereafter to be controverted betweene vs. But now breifly to set downe my arguments which I maintain stil you have not satisfied in no one poinct I will therfore breifly set them downe in forme desiring an answer as breif yet as solid and as substancial as you can affoard onely graunting denying or distinguishing which in deed is to answer in forme like a scholler Your conclusion as I take was this The written word of God contained in the Bible is the onely sufficient rule of our faith My reasons were these in substance to prove the contrary though the same in word I can not affirme not having one line of yours or my conference That which is not knowen for Gods word cannot be the onely rule of faith But scriptures by themselves are not knowen for scriptures go the bare scriptures which is the written word of God can not be the onely rule of faith My Major is most certaine and evident My Minor I proved out of Dr. Whitaker Hooker Zanchius Brentius all holding traditioÌ„ necessarily to distinguish scriptures froÌ„ no scriptures Also I take I proved this out of the holy Councells out of S. Augustin contra epistolam fundamenti Manichaeic 9. Ego Euangelio non crederem c. I would not beleeve the Gospel except the authoritie of the church should move thervnto Neyther did you answer my Minor when you said scriptures â—r knowen by themselves For first you slight and let slip the authority of those that in common reason I should beleive assoâ—ne as your self 2. You doe not answer to the authoritie of S. Aug 3. your answer is against common sense Since if scriptures were as prime a principle as that the sun shines or that honie is sweet no man could beâ— ignorant thereof that had all his naturall faculties and if more then the natural faculties and the object disposed be required you eats your owne words For then it is not so knowen a truth And how shall I know I have this spirituall eye of discerning truth more theÌ„ my adversarie that accepts of some things for no scripture that I do allow of as scripture c. Why had not S. Aug this â—ie that with whole Councel of Carthage accpted of the bookes of Machabees as divine and Canoricall scripture why had not S. Hierom that translated the holy scriptures Another reason that I urged was thus Many things were beleeved before the written word of God many things are now beleeved that are not expressely taught in the written word of God go the written word of God is not onely the rule of faith The first part of my Antecedent is easily proved For the church of God till Moses tyme was well governed and yet had no written word My second part was proved I giving instance that the Sacrament in the old law for expâ—ating of original syâ— in women The mysterie of the B. Trinity that God the holy ghost did proceed froÌ„ God the father and God the sonne as from one beginning That Easter day should be celebrated on Sunday and not on Saturday That the Creede of the Apostles is to be beleeved and yet no one of these is expressely taught in holy scriptures you sayd yes but you cited no place of scripture for probation thereof Moreover you have not satisfyed the places of holy scripture I cited to prove traditions especially you have not answered to that place of S. Paul 2. Thes. 2. v. 15. nor to the authoritie of S. Chrysost. homilie 4. iâ—â— Thes. 2. wherin Dr. Whitaker sayes he speaks unworthy of so holy a father nor to the place off Basil or S. Hierom or S. Aug. De Genesi ad literam lib. 10. c. 23. where he tearheth many fasts feasts solemnities to be kept and beleeved onely through tradition and he testifieth there that in no wise we could beleeve the baptising of childreÌ„ without vnwritten tradition Another which I vsed was this That which is most difficult hard and almost for occurring difficults inexplicable can not be to the unlearned at least a certaine and unfallible truth But the scriptures are thus as well witnesseth your own conscience and divers places I set downe that seem to contradist one another go Moreover how should an artificer know whether this Bible be well translated or no since he can neyther conferr it with the original or the vulgar Latin And I showed how these difficults are not trivial Amongst other places I cited that place of S. Peter the â— chapter v. 16. In which are certaine things hard to be vnderstood which the unlearned and vnstable deprave as also the rest of the scriptures to their own perdition No doubt S Peter meanes of those things S. Paul delivered touching vocation grace justification and predestination In which I showed how parvus error in principio magnus est in sine to which the words of S. Peter alludes to as also the rest of the scriptures meaning that an error in some one transcendall poinct of these doe cause error in many other places that depend hereupon But is these and more plainly examplified I had nothing but quotations imâ—ertinently alleged and no determinate answer to the difficult That whose onely the hath been defective and erroneous yea to the greatest Elercks to every one howsoever unfâ—ilfull and unlearned can not be a certaine and unfallible rule of faith But that the bare scripture is so I showed by diverse seming plaine piares cited by the Arrians Pelagians Semipelagians Donatists EutheraÌ„s Anabaptists â—t All which vie scripture for scripture If you give an interpretation of their place of scripture that they bring to confirme their hereste they will give also an interpretation
of any place of scripture that you shall bring to refute them if your interpretation be a correspondencie to scripture theirs also shall be so The fift Argument of mine I framed thus God is as provideÌ„t for necessarie meanes to direct his church as he is provident to Empires kingdomes common wealthes and families But all these besides the written law have ever some one decyder vnweere or tribunall to â—hoke controversies or diffentions in the seed to mowe them downe in the flower to eâ—tirpate them in the verie roote go the word of God is not sufficient in it self to settle all controversies Thus as I remember ran the sum of my reasons which you has not answered in your last or in any other replie of yours Now since my reasons remaine in their ful force I can not see any reason why I should be bound to spend much tyme in answering fruitless and impertinent allegations But here as I remember transcending the boundes of this question now controverted though I confess the matter you proposed is in the confines of this present you brought a place out of S. Augustin that on S. Mathewes wordes c 16. sayes that Christ did build his church on the faith of Peter not of his person on Christ Jesus not on S. Peter First to this place I answer that in one sense S. Augustin sayes the first yet I denie that ever S. Augustine dooth deney that the church of Christ is built on the persoÌ„ of S. Peter And well map the Church be sayd to be built on the faith of S. Peter and yet also on his person because the person of S. Peter touching his faith is no fraile mortal creature but is a stroÌ„g unshaliable rock as the faith it self In that Luk. 22. It is sand I have prayed for thee Peter that thy faith may not faile Since we beleeve that this prayer is obteyned we must beleev that by the warraÌ„t of Christs prayer the person of Peter his faith shal never be severed so S. Aug calling sometimes S. Peter the roch of the church and somtimes his faith doth mean one thing The which S. August himself testifieth for remembring that he had taught that in the person of Peter the Church was fouÌ„ded quod in eo tanquam in Petra â—â—â—data sit Ecclesia in which sense it was fong by many in the hymâ—â—s of S. Ambrose Hoc â—â—sa Petra Ecclesiae canente culpam dâ—â—uit At the crowing of the cock the rock of the churâ— Peter lamented his fault he concludeth the whole matter of these two expositions Harum duarum sententiarum quae sit probabâ—â—â—or eligat lector Of which two expositions which to the probabler I leave to the readers choice What have you not by this allegation of S. Augustine Nay what will you loose if you should come to answer the holy fathers that affirm the church to be founded on S. Peter That you write you are sorie for my error I wonder you should bee so carefull for my soules good that are so negligent of your own For as I take in the last of myne I showed how ful of feare the last resolution of your faith would be when you should give account at that eternal tribunal In that all you can answer for your self is that your owne phancie apprehended so your private spirit interpreted so Where my faith is warranted by Gods word driivered by the holy catholick church confirmed by General and Provinstall Councels sealed by thowsand of Martyrs blood authorisâ—d by antiguitie of Historie ratified by holy Fathers Doctors and instructors of holie orders in all ages having the profession of our religion inferted in our naturall â— language churches crosses buildings mony â— most ancient monuments al which motives warrant me that I shal render an answer without all feare or dread All these and 〈…〉 motives you may have to yeeld to us but you could never nâ—t â—â—â—we me the least semblance of reason why I should yeeld to you God send you make right use of them for the good of your soule that you man at length be reduced to the true church of Christ for which I shall heartily pray Iohn Aynsworth I received yours dated the 12. of April the 20. of the same and I end this the 29. of Aprill stylo veteri Justice Hall in Newgate H. A. his answer to the former letter To his loving frâ—ind Mr. Iohn Aynsworth prisoner in Justice hall in Newgate be these in London GRace and mercy from God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ â—e vouch safed unto you 1. Wheras you gâ—ve me to vnderâ—tand Mr. Aynsworth that my writings among others were taken from you so that you could not answer them as you promised and that if yow had my last papers in a few lines you could answer any thing that urgeth you therin c. I have out of my love towards you and in compassion of your estate sent you a copie of my last writing not urging you to answer unless you think the goodness of your cause will bear you out but desiring you to yeild unto the truth there shewed you You brought for your defense C. Bellarmines reasons I have manifested the weaknes of them If you can fortifie them or your cause by any other I am willing as I have begunn to take notice thereof eyther to refute them or yeeld you the Victory If you leave off I also will rest and let the prudent judge what we both have sayd 2. You as if you would beginn a new combate propound 12. questions for me to answer I told you before I would not digresse to by matters for so we might run into confusion fruitlesse and endless Also your questions most of them are of Fathers Doctors c. since th'Apostles times by whom I shewed you that I neyther might nor would trye any religion til the Divine scriptures be proved insufficient which will never be 3. You then propound the controversie a new as if we were now again to beginn when we are almost at an yssue so might both of us weary our selves in vayn Your first long writing to me hath made my answers the longer for I desired and stil doo brevity with perspicuitie Least through want of your papers you should swarve from the questions in hand I wil set them down in the words that they have passed My assertions were question weise when I should enter into dispute vvith you to see if you vvould grant 1. That our differences in religion should be tryed and composed by the verdict or vvord of God not of men 2. That Gods vvord is to be found in the scriptures of the Prophets Apostles vvho vvrote originally in Hebrevv and Greek By these I offred my faith to be tryed and to make trial of other faith proposed Yours were vvhich you sayd you vvould prove and so indevoured 1. That onely the bare text of the scripture is not a
though we should graunt that Elias did think himself left alone in Israel yet Almightie God did answer him I wil leave 7. thowsand men in Israel that have not bowed their knees to Bâ—al 50. I answer that Esay the Prophet in his first chapter dooth use the self same fiâ—ure of Synâ—â—hdâ—che also the self same manner of speech is vsed the 4. â—eg 21. For Manasses himself did râ—pent and redeeme mâ—nn and many were never seduced so understand that also of the Prophet here 51. That of which Azarias dooth prophetise 2 Paral. 15. is to be understood of the Israelites that were dificient and not of the Jewes that were constant I graunt also that at the coÌ„ming of our Saviour the church was but a little one yet I say it was preserved in Marie Joseph Zacharie Elizabeth and Anna the Prophetess In just Simeon and the Pastors 52. That of Daniel the 9. the host and sacrifice shall faile is to be understood of the destruction of Hierusalâ—m and the câ—â—â—ing of the Jewish sacrifice Luk. 18. Our Saviour doth not absolutely speak of faith but of an external faith and of an excellent faith 2 Thes. 2. Is to be vnderstood the particular departing of Antichrist and his â—rew from the church And so by these grounds to the usual objections against the perpetuall visibilitie of Gods church wee may answer any thing that hath bene or may be produced 53. Yet to confirm this truth with one short reason I argue thus This church of God if it must be invisible Eyther it must begin to be invisible in the time of peace or in the time of persecution in the time of peace there was no opposition to make her invisible in the tyme of persecution no bodie could persecute an invisible thing 54. Now wheras you sayd you show how the labyrinth of my religion leadeth to the Pope the center of our circle True it is I sayd the vltimate resolution of our religion is to be resolved into the veracitie of God revealing as into the formal causâ— and into the authoritie of the church as into the applying â—ause And I am glad you have traâ—ed me not to your heretical quicksands but to S. Peters rock 55. And that you may see the resolution of my religion is no other but that of S. Cyprian lib de unitate Eccles. where he compares â—ou in regard of the church of Rome as Beames in regard of the sun as boughes in regard of the tree as a river in regard of the fountayn So that he concludes he that separates himself from the church of God he must needs vanish fade and drie up in that they lack their origen by which all unitie is preserved 55. I gave you 2 or three instances to show how the word of God might in a divers kind depend of the Church and the church of the word of God as we prove the self same a priori et a posteriori the operation of the stone or herb depends of the skil and knowledge of the herbalist and lapidarie and their skil and knowledge depends of the innated and inward proprietie of the stone and herbe For neyther can have his effect without mutual help of both except chance which is no regular action be the applier and so I take you have thalked your self a way to a ridiculous building without foundatioÌ„ as I shall shew anone 56. You answer nothing to this but that I prove out of natural philosophie as though divinitie though it excels is not concordant to natural reason whereas we can beleeve nothing that we see implies by the light of naturall reason 57. To the places that you object of the 1. of Timoth. 1 3. rather proves against you then makes for you For it showes all the while that she did not reach otherwise to the church she remained sound And that which you cite 1. Tim 3 15. would make you trest salue if you did daily consider it For there he warnes her that she might conforme her conversation to the house of God the pillar of truth And though the text sayes in the house of God yet it must be understood in the particular church that must have reference to that place as wee shall prove hereafter where S. Peter did establish his chaire Ioh. 14 16. Mat. 16. Math. 28 Ephes. 4 Ioh. 17. Luc. 22. Psal. 2. Ephâ—s 2. 58. When you seeme to drawe out of my speech that I denie for my witness the spirit of God is your error and fraude For I hold that which is taught out of these places 1 Cor 2. 10 11. Iob. 28 2 13 22. c. to signifie nothing else but that the holy Ghost teacheth the church in all truth and her members with reference to her and my private spirit I ought not to follow so that if I might be your Pilote I would save you from that bottomlesse gulphe that ghaspes to receive your erroneous soule 59. St. Augustines authoritie you let slip denying him a fit Maister to follow you say he might retractate this but neither you doe nor can show that he did retractate it 60. As for S. Augustines opposition to S. Hierome it was in some smal matter and not in a matter defined vp the consent of the church 61. My second Argument was this in substance Major That which is hard and for occurring places almost inexplicable cannot be to the rud ignorant at least a certain ground of faith Mmor But the scriptures of themselves are thus Conclusion go the scriptures by themselves can not bee a certaine and infallible rule of saith to the ignorant and rude at least 62. My major propositioÌ„ is most certain For a rule must be known and certaine and more fit to our capacitie to bee conceived then that which is to be ruled and certefied therby 63. My Mmor also I prove both in regard of many seeming contradictions of the Hebraimes nature of things therin contained being high misteries 64. In answering of this Argument you say some thinges are hard in the scriptures I proved this difficultie and hardnes was in principal matters which I proved out of the second of S. Peter 3. 16. Our most deare brother Paul according to his wisdome given hâ—m hath written to you as also in all his epistles speaking of them in these things in which are certain thiâ—gs hard which the unlearned unstable deprave as also the rest of thâ— scrâ—pâ—ures to their own destructio Hence is gathered that not on ly the places of S. Pâ—ul touchiâ—g vocation justification sanctification predestination and â—â—prâ—bation inâ—â—pâ—icating which pointes S. Paul is most frequent but also any other place is subject to be depraved as the word implies as also the rest of the scriptures And S. August in his book de fide et operibus c. 14 showes that one of the cheife matters they did deprave was about justifying by faith And I showed you here as erring a little
in some mathematical instrument makes a mans sight and judgment quite contrarie as appeareth in the vse of the Astrolabe or crosse staffe So I say the least error in any of these transcendental doctrinal points doth shake the whole body of beleef 65. You say the matters are hard but the places that treats of them are easie as though in such short wordes of poincts that desire so many hundred quires of paper to examine them they can be easie as though the wordes doe not befit the matter And that not onely the matter but that also the manner of penning is difficult appeares out of S Augustin 2. lib. de doctrina Christ. et epist. 119 and S. Ambrose epistola 44 in principio acknowledgeth the difficulties he had to understand the manner of writing of scripture And S. Hier to Paul epist. 103. c. 5. 6 7. et epist. 65. c. 1. confesseth that in his old age when rather he should teach then be taught he went as farr as Alexandria onely to heare Didymus and to have his help to understand the scriptures And S. Augustin in his epistle 119. c. 21. acknowledgeth that there were more things he understood not then that he did understand 66. That of Proverb 8 8. 9. is to be understood eyther of general doctrine or of precepts of maners and good life and so Gods words are easie which explication we give you as a iewel unto your hand to that cited of you Prover 17 16. Wherfore is ther price in the hand of a fool c. 67. Then you seem ingeniously to graunt the scriptures to be hard but you instance that the determinations of the Pope doth make theÌ„ harder You say Exod. 20. Deut. 25 15. Images are absolutely and plainly prohibited here But I deny it and prove that idols are onely here prohibited and not images Which that of the brafen serpent proves that as long as it was an image it was erected and kept by Gods commandement but when it grew to be an idol when the people began to adore it as God as S. August notes in his 10. lib. de civitat Dei c. 8. Ezechiaâ— 4. ReguÌ„ 18. broke it into peeces And that of the 2. of Cor. 6 proves as much 〈◊〉 that place can not be understood of images but of idole for the temple was adorned with Cherubins which were images And therefore it must be read How agreeth the Temple of God with idolls and not with images as you commonly read and translate But I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you as S. Ierom sayes in c. 25. Eze. of the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 that were idolatrous Gentiles that comm 〈…〉 of 〈…〉 and seing the propitiatorie shadowed over 〈…〉 Cherubims 〈…〉 as the Gentiles so Judah also hath 〈…〉 then religion they putting no more difference between the Gentiles heathenish idols and the Jewes lawful images then you 68. As for your wilfull error in citing of Cardinal Bellarmines probable opinion as the determination of the Pope I must much blame you But you may know that both his opinion and the different opinion of Ga Dasques are both probable in schooles As for the subtile and most true distinction of the worship of Latria Dulia and Hyperdulia must needes seem strange and insipidd to him that never tasted peradventure one grain of the salt of the Universities or one line of the schoolmen 69. Yet here you take upon you like a great â—abbin that I say the Pope cannot make of himself a matter of faith but that he onely declareth what is a matter of faith and that such a thing is to be beleeved It is well you say that I hold me here But then you inferâ— that the Pope can doe no more then other Bishops and Peters primacie will be no more then Pauls which you prove 1. Cor. 4 1. So let a man esteeme us as the Ministers of Christ the dispensers of the mysteries of God I answer they be all alike in power of order but not of jurisdiction and in a juditiall determination to settle controversies in the Church of God which appeareth in that in the councel of Chalcedon that had determined the matter controverted and 630. Bishops having subscribed the Popes Legates being also present in that Councell having defined and judged with the rest what needed then a solemne ratification by the Popes own letters to confirm the Councell but that the Emperor and other Bishops did acknowledg a soveraigne power above all other particular Bishops See Leo epistle 61. et in epist ad Martianum Imperatorem 59. where he sayes Constitutionibus synodalibus c. Unto the constitution of the Councell which hath pleased me both for the confirmation of the catholick faith and for the condemnation of the hereticks I have added my verdiet And this verdict or sentence was not a bare consent but a judiciall confirmation and ratification of the Councel appeareth out of his letters sent the self same time unto the Empress Pulcheria saying Wheras the most godly Emperor hath willed me to direct my letters to the Bishops present at the Councell of Chalcedon quibus quae illic de fidei sunt regula definita firmarem by which I should confirm such things as have bene there defined touching the rule of faith I have gladly fulfilled his request 70. And he addeth this reason immediately Ne fallax cujusdam simulatio sententiam meaÌ„ vellet habere incertam To the intent that no man by any deceiptfull dissembling may take my verdict or sentence herein uncertaine To the intent that no man by any deceiptful dissimbling may take my sentence or verdict herein uncertaine 71. So also the Affricane Bishops having discussed the heresie of Pelaâ—ius and 〈…〉 sent their definition therein to the See Apostolicke to be confirmed by Silvester and the Councell of Constantinople by Damasus the Councel of Ephesus by â—aelestinus Doth not all this Mr. H. A. prove to you that the prerogatives of the Pope in defining and ratefying any thing is above al other Bishops which privileges al ages would not have given but that they did see as s. Peter had primacie over the other Apostles so his successor must have over other Bishops 72. And to showe this I will folow the thread of your matter â— not the manner of your discourse that in the interim is farced up with fowle mouthed slaunders as I shall touch anone The next page you begin to examine that of the 15. of the Acts of the Apostles alleged by me as a congruencie to argue S. Peters primarie v. 7. Peter rose up showing therby that he was head of the Church Wher first you show your wilful fraude in that you would have me gather his superioritie by his bare rising up Where I gathered rather by the due circumstances that passed there in that place For the text sayes when there was made a great disputation Peter rising up sayd to them you
motives and to see which religion had greater credibilitie 116. 2. This being presupposed I will prove that our Romaine Catholicke church compared with what religions soever of the Heathens ceremontal of the Jewes heresies and sects of Christians is to be preferred in any reasonable mans judgment before any of them Since I will prove that the motives of our religion are of evident credibilitie 117. 3. I am to prove that the motives of our Catholick religion are to be and are of most evident credibilitie whether they be taken by themselves or whether they be parralleld with the doctrine of the Gentile Jewe or heretick and the motives of our religion must be of evident credibilitie appeareth out of the Psal. 9 2. Testimonia tua credibilia facta sunt nimis Heb. 2. the preaching of the Apostles is said to be confirmed by signes and myracles 2. if there were not motives of evideÌ„t credibility no man prudeÌ„tly should be thought to assent vnto faith 118. And that the motives of our religion are of evident credibilitie appeareth in the particular relation of them 119. The first motive of our religion is from the author of our religion who to have been is as certaine as that Alexander or Aristotle was And that our Savieur did not teach false things of ignorance or mallice appeareth by his doctrine preaching and his virtues and power prophecied by the Prophets and by the Sybâ—liacs by the silence of oracles of whom S John Baptist honoured so by the very Jewes for sanctitie of life doth give such testimonie of whoÌ„ the Apostles also did testifie and not of ignorance since they preach those things they sawe nor of mallice or gaine since they preached without any hope of temporal commoditie or preferment they being condemned and despised of all And it appeares out of Josephus lib. 18. Antiquitatum and by Tertullian libro coÌ„tra Celfum and Porphyrius where it is sayd Deos gentium etc. The Gods of the Gentiles pronounced Christ to bee wise and godly 120 The second Argument and motive of edident credibilitie is taken out of particular prophecies concerning our Saviour which motive Justinus in his Qbus Orthodoxos q. 2. et 146. Tertull. in Apoll. c. 20. D. Chrysost 18. in Iohannem D. Aug 1. De consensu Euangelico c. 28. usque ad finem Also the prophesies of our Saviour propagation of the Church conversion of Gentiles persecutions of Christians are daily seen to be fulfilled 121. Hetherto all Christians may vsurpe these motives as then own But when those that they shall seek to perswade shall aske of them what the essentiall pointes of their religion are without which it cannot stand If they be demaunded which of the Apostles schollars did teach these points of doctrine that they boast they teach and say they have received different froÌ„ the Romane Catholiks grounds Where their church hath lurcht this thowsand five hundred yeares Whie none of the auncient Fathers writings are for them no hystories the records of time whether their nation was first converted to their religion here they are gravelld and can vse no other or further motive which hath been the reason why yet never any nation to this day hath been converted to their religion To these and other questions of the self same nature Mr H. A dâ—st not and yet dares not answer I or no though ther be 13 in number and of great moment set downe in my last letter 122. But here our Church can goe forward with her third motive of most evident credibilitie which is â—ercht from the antiquitie of our religion and doctrine Which Argument S. August contra epistolam â—auda Manich. vseth Justinus also in adhortatio ad Gentes Lact. lib. 2. Divinarum institut c. 14. Cyrillus Alexand contra Iul Aug. 18. de civit Deic 18. Iosephus the record of our antiquiâ—ie libio 1. contra Apâ—onem showes that it exceeds all prophane momâ—ments Iustin Apolog 2 Tertull. Apolog. c. 19. eâ—alij And if wee understand of Christ Jesus and the Apostles doctrine it appeares by the perpetual succession of Bishops from S Peters chaire which Argument Irenaeus lib. 3 c. 3. Tertull. De praescript c 6. et Hieron contra Lucifer versus finem vseth to prove our church to be the most aunent true and Apostolical church 123. Which antiquitie also doth appeare out of the name Catholicke which wee have still reteyned though our adversaries have laboured what in them lieth to deface that name so the Montanists called Catholicks Psychias that is animales in that they refused to observe their three fasts and the Calvinists termes vs Papists But al in vaine For no sooner can a man aske where a catholick dwells but presently they will direct them to some of vs which argumeÌ„t S. Aug. vseth 124 Our 4. Argument may be the sanctitie of our doctrine teaching most congruous to reason and so behooful in respect of God our neighbour and our selfs as appeareth by our fasts religious vowes of Preists so that all is conformable to that of the Psal. 18. his law is an immaculate law converting soules 125 The fifâ— motive is out of the admirable and divine manner of promulgating our faith both in the Apostles tymes and in their Apostolicall followers that our faith should be first established by poore fishermeÌ„ 2 in that the things they preached weÌ„t against mens wil and against the haire of humaine inclination 3. In that they did perswade men to this religioÌ„ not with hope of privat lucre or styles of honor but by couÌ„selling of a pecfect resignatioÌ„ of our wils to God in all things 4. In that by the efficacie of this their doctrine most potent eloquent and learned men have been converted according to that the 1 Cor. 2. Se brethren our vocation qua non multi sapientes which Argument Justinus Apolog 2. Christ. homil 34. in Math. Aug. 22. de civit det c. 5. Dainast 4. de fide c. 4 vseth 126. The 6 Motive is that since God and his servants have been ever mamfested from deluders and imposcers by true myracles doon to the proffit of many and not for ostentation as appeareth in the conflict of Moyses and Aaron with Pharoes Magi Exo. â— Elias with Baals Prophets B. S. Peter with Simon Magus as Egisippus relates Of Eugenius the Catholick Byshop with Cittola the AriaÌ„ Byshop as Greg. Turonensis witnesseth lib. 3. â—ist c. 3. The which success hath animated our Catholicks to vrge the Gentlies to the triall of their religion by true myracles as Arnobins lib. 1. et Tertull. apolog lib. 23. And S. Joh. 5. our Saviour affirms that the works he did gave a greater testimonie of him then the testimonie of S. John Baptist and Joh 8. We know that that comes from God And Erodi 4. Whereas Moyses objected that the people would not heare him he gave him the power of myracles And as our Saviour vseth this Argument Joh.
vs and whose judgment you saie you preferr before your selfe For first you intangle your selfe in an endless circle For you prove the privat spirit to be true in that the written word saies as interpreted by you that it is true and you prove the writteÌ„ word to bee true by the private spirit both which wee denie since we will have neither the writteÌ„ word alone or privat spirit to be the rule of our faith And you doe not only coÌ„mit a circle but perswade against your owne perswasion since you would have me to beleeve you onely citing scriptures before thowsand Fathers citing scriptures also whose worth by so many titles you preferr before your selfe suerly suerly you have no guift in perswasion 152. And not onely thus vnreasonablie doe you proceed but as the Manichies to S. August you object many places of scripture whose infereÌ„ces still â—re Nolâ— Catholicis credere doe not beleeve the Catholicks I can then returne you this answer with St. Aug. noÌ„ rectè facies per EuaÌ„geliuÌ„ me cogere ad Manichaei fidem q. ipsi EvaÌ„gelio Catholicis praedicantibus credidi You doe not wel by scriptures cited from the gospel to vrge me to beleeve your Brownisme against the Catholick faith For this Gospel out of which you cite these wordes and wrested places I received froÌ„â—he Catholick church from whence you would diâ—â—wade me 153. The â— thing that I am to shew is that the Popes definiâ—tive sentence at least with a generall counsel is sufficient to determine all controversies and is a sufficient groundworke of faith This you saie I propound faintly in that I did alleage I did not of purpose dispute it though as you object it was the maine question 154. I answer most true it is according to my answer wherin I did voluntarily yeild to this to which by force of argument I was never vrged so it is the maine drift of the question But in regard of the satisfaction of you or your arguments it is not the maine question For when I saie there is something els required besides the writteÌ„ word to make it a compleat rule of faith I did not answer faintly when I graunted more then that to which I was vrged For your Argument required to know how the judgment of the church and in what sence might be infallible might have a manifold sence For if you take the definition of the church for the consent of all the fathers doctors of the church so it is infallible If you take it for a general CouÌ„cel coÌ„firmed by the Pope so it is also of infallible authoritie If you take it for the definition of the Pope with the councel of Cardinals defining ex cathedra so it is of infallible authoritie And since in all these sences the Catholick church is an indeficient rule to determine a matter of faith and to interpret the scriptures I did not therefore faintly answer when I insisted on the last 155 As for your rhethoricall flourish and forged resolution of my faith I have sufficiently excluded our opinion from that circle in which you stick fast Nervaeus wheÌ„ he saies the Pope is virtualy the whole church meanes nothing else but that he is the spiritual head to direct the whole church by the infallible assistance of the holy Ghost 156. As for my vellitation those few that I brought were sufficient to overthrow your groundles opinioÌ„ As for my reasons in the armadoe of mine as you terme theÌ„ that you saie wil never enter the feild It may be well they scorn to oppose one that lies at their fellowes mercie already 157. Now you come to examin the prerogatives of S. Peter Out of the whole series of which the circuÌ„stances therof not onely out-of each particular I drawe an infallible Argument but you in an swering them rather seeke to shun or avoid a blow then to give any 158. First you graunt that ever almost S. Peter is named first of the Apostles you except some 3. or 4. places but you cite none though otherwise most frequent in multiplicitie of cited places to no purpose Hence you graunt that primacie of order and not of authoritie maie be gathered You saie this gratis But since the holy Ghost both not repeat this prunacie to no purpose surely there his authoritie above his other brethreÌ„ is argued thence And since to be named still first through the whol scripture rather argues primacie of autority then of order Why should not wee rather iâ—ferâ— the vsual then the vnusual significatioÌ„ especiallie since in all records wee see the prioritie of the place is given to the preheminencie of the person 159. But let us examin one place the 10. of Mat 2. And the names of the 12. Apostles be thâ—se The first Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother and so Marci 3. Luc. 6. he is still named first Which cannot bee vnderstood of prioritie of your order you vnderstaÌ„ding therby prioritie of yeares or vocatioÌ„ Since S. Andrew that is named next excelled S. Peter in yeares was first called As S. Ambr. witnesseth on the 2. of the Cor. 12. and he inferreth then that although S. Andrew was his elder yet S. Peter was his superior This place made so much for this that Theodorus Beza although he coÌ„fessed all copies agreed herein yet he would have this word first to be â—oisted in see Beza in the annotations of the new testameÌ„t 556. As for that of the Galatians where S. Paul not numbring or reckoning the Apostles of set purpose as the 3. Euangelists doe meÌ„tioneth first S. James Bishop of Jerusalem whom first he met and who led him vnto the other Apostles as it appeareth Act 21. I. Calvin seing in his conscience the force of this Argument at which you wink grants that hence may be gathered that he was first of the 12. Apostles but not the head of the whole world 160. As for that which you object the 21. of the Apocalyps 19. where the foundation of the wall of the citie is described to be adorned with pretious stones And then you inferr in that in the Preists habit or ornament the Jasper which is as you say the stone of Benjamin by his place makes against you if I would plaie the part of a Cabbalist or naturalist But the scripture it self Exod. 28 v. 18 19. confutes you For there in the first place is said to be placed the stone Sardius Topazius and Smaragdus In the second the Carbunâ—â—â— the Saphyrus and the Jaspis So that we see the Jaspis or the stone Benjamin by your doctrine should not have the first place 161. Secondly against my congruitie alleaged for S. Peters primacie Math. 14. 29. where S. Peter walkes vpon the water Out of which place S. Chrysostom homil 57. and S. Bernard lib. 2. de consider ad EugeniuÌ„ doth inferr S. Peters prerogative above the other Apostles you saie rather argues his
especiall grace that was given to the Apostles But you cannot denie but that S. 〈◊〉 diverse other Popes that you condemn have been forward in preaching 170. I inferr 8. the preheminence of S. Peter in that the first myracle was doone by him You here more merily then seriously answer that I shall work a second myracle in converting you if from this though graunted by you I could prove him head as wee expound it I answer from most of these congruancies solely by themselves I doe not bring any convinceâ—ng argument but from the whole series of them together I doe convince you since you cannot denie but the Apostle whome our Saviour first names promiseth speciall assistance calls him the rocke first washeth his feet that sitts ever first first in all assemblies speakes doth the first myracles must needs bee head of all the rest or else all these primarie offices should not casually or coÌ„monly happen Since then if you were not through obstinacie hindred you would bee converted I admitt that the first myracle was speaking of tongues Act. 2. 7. 11. but I speake of destâ—â—ce myracles and beneficiall to others and in his first preaching I showed he had preheminence above others 171. 9. I enferred that S. Peter was head in that as supreame judge he condemned the hypocrisie of Ananias and Saphyras 5 of Act. 5. which was the sentence of excommunication by S. Aug. judgment lib. 3. contra epist. Parmeni c. 2â— to 7. And that S. Peter did give the first judiciall excommunication doth it not inferr that he was the head 172. That which you object out of the 1 of Tim. 2. Act. 13. 11. proves that S. Paul excoÌ„municated some but it doth not prove that he exercised that judicial authoritie first therfeor it proves nothing 173. 10. I inferr S. Peters prerogative in that he first discovered Symon Magus coÌ„demned him to which place you make an outroade in objected symonies committed by the Pope when you might ferth your instances nearer home 174. After all these proofes breifly touched and congruencies I inferred thus All these and other circumstances concerning S. Peter showes manifestly that S. Peter had preheminencie above the other of the Apostles that he is rock and head of the church How they have vrged I desire not to bee my owne judge but referr my selfe to the indifferent judgment of the reader 175. And that this preheminence of S. Peter was onely in order I have proved and will hereafter prove The place that you bring 28. of Math. 16. 20 but that particular men are to bee joyned as witnesses and that God heares the congregation of the church praying But that which you bring S. John 20. 21. 22. 23. I could prove that the church of God by the mission of the Apostles remaines for ever That the church is to be heard as Christ himselfe by the reâ—â— parative mission As my Father sends me so I send you I 〈◊〉 inferr preisthood and might from the verse 25 inferr with the holy 〈◊〉 power to forgive sinnes but it is sufficient that your place 〈◊〉 proves nothing and if it be proved ought it were equallitie of 〈◊〉 not of jurisdiction 176. And whereas I inferr a reason in briefe that the legacie of S. Peters primacie was so particularly distinguished that no man can doubt thereof Since his owne old name is specified there Simon his fathers name the sonne of Jonas and his owne imposed name Peter et Cephas you saie you doe not impugne the priviledge of Peter but that I doe impugne the testameÌ„t of the Apostles which I have shewed and shall still show is a great vntruth 177. And that I doe not impugne our Saviour the head of the church when I make our Saviour the head of the church when I make Sainct Peter the ministeriall and subordinate head to him I proved that as God is said to bee our onely Father Mat. 23. 9. And yet it is said that wee have many fathers Christ Jesus is said to bee the foundation 1 Cor. 3. 11. And yet the Apostles are said to bee foundations Ephes. 2. 20. So Christ Jesus 2 Sam. 22. 32. â— Cor. 10. 4 Ephes. 5. 23 he is said to be the rocke and head And S. Basil 1. de paenitentia saies Though Peter bee a rock yet he is not a rocke as Christ For Christ is immovable by himselfe He is the light And the Apostles also are said to bee lights 2 Mat. 5. 14. He is Preist and yet he made Preists 178. When I saie Petros eyther signifies a rocke or a stone you bidde me produce any learned authoritie for it I answer I could produce many But I appeale for this tyme to your owne conscieÌ„ce since Christ spake Mat. 16. in the Syrick language in which there is no difference betwene a rocke or a stone Petrus or Petra Yea though Petrus and Petra differr in termination in the Greek yet they indifferently signifie a rocke or a stone as the protestants translate Ioh. 1. 42. And that S. Peter was still accounted the rock and head of the church appeares by that place of S. August lib. 1. retract â— 21. that you cited against me But I see in conscience you are satisfied of S. Aug. opinion that you are silent And Tertull de prescript Orig. homil 5 in Exodum Stus Cypr. de vnitate Ecclesiae Stus Ambrosius sermone 47. et 68. et lib. 6. in c. 9. Luc. everie one affirming that the church was builded on S. Peter 179. Where I saie that it was Petros in the masculine gender in that the masculine gender was most fittest for a man But that our Saviour the first of Peter 2 8. was named a rock might well bee since all that admitted of his doctrine would never denie but that he was head of the church so there was no need to change the gender as there is here You taxe me that I on Optatus creddit would have Cephas to signifie a head I answer that I doe not remember it and I graunt that I have no â—â—ul in the Spricke language But surely I eyther spoke of the greeke word Cephalos or else intended to show that which is the foundation to a house is in proportion of a head to abodie So that if you graunt that Cephas to signifie a principall stone of a house or rocke it is sufficient to me that so it signifies an head or proportion 180. Whereas being vrged you seem to graunt thâ—â— S. Peter was the mouth of the Apostles I prove still to make against you For eyther he must bee the spokeman or Mr. spring by election still where he speaks first which election of theirs you cannot prove out of scripture that he should as the foreman of the jurie or the speaker in the parlament or else being cheife ever in place and speach he must have it by authoritie given him as I have proved it before 181. You seem to except against my breife
is against S. Joh. the 17. 11. Vt sint vâ—um St. et nos 213. I prove this in that the Romaine church is the onely true and Catholicke church this you sate if you should admit of yet it proves nothing in that the voice of the bridegroome and not of the bride is that you say wee must beleeve Joh. 3. 29. 36. Ephes. 2. 24. 4. 5 16. As though that were false of Christ he that heared you heares me Luc. 10. 16. 18. Mat. 17. S. Joh. 14. 16. 26. Joh. 16. 19. 1 Tun. 3. 15 The church of the living God is said to bee the pillar and sir â—amâ—t of truth 214. I am gladd to heare you dente your selfe as in truth you are knowen to bee no Catholicke That you will not challenge your Mothers name showes your degenerating spirit For well might you bee a Catholicke member of a Catholike church but as others have been ashamed of that name so also you but the truth is your church is not Catholicke in that it hath neyther vniversallitie of time place or person 215. That the whole world is replenished with our doctrine you slight over with most impertinent places of scripture to inferr the Pope to bee Antichrist and you graunt that the synagogue of the Jewes in her flourishing â— visibilitie hath excelled Christs church which is contrarie to the predictions of the Prophets and Apostles 216. To the motives of evident credibilitie that maie induce any man to beleeve as the Romaine church teacheth I proposed many motives as her antiquitie vnitie vniversallitie visibilitie that her doctrine was confirmed by the doctors by the institution and institutors of most holie orders by the conversion of nations by the power of myracles infinit number of Martyrs All which notes and motives the ancient Doctors have taken out of scripture to distinguish the true church most of which you graunt we have Onely with your wrested places paralleld herevnto you seâ—k to coÌ„fute theÌ„ but so lamely that any maÌ„ may see your answers are suddaine snatches then true bitings or wounds according to the nature of a madd dogge that runne headlonge and immediately snatcheth at any thing that opposeth him 217. That which you bring else where is to small purpose or abundantly satisfied elsewhere 218. Now to conclude I prove by a common Argument in refuting your answer in calling our motives carnall that wee maie bringe to prove the Catholicke church the true church 219. If our faith bee so ancient as you confess and allowed so long of all sorts and conditions if it bee not from God it must bee grounded on carnall motives viz. the profitt of the spiritual or temporall But it smoothes neither And that it is not grounded on the inventioÌ„ of the clergie for there profitt or pleasure is plaine since they so strictly binde themselves to chastitie vowes fasting praying so longe everie daie and all these vnder mortall sinne with all which burdeÌ„s they would not have loaden themselves if onely pollicie had beene their loadstone Neither is it governed by the pollicie of temporall Princes For it cannot bee immagined howe â—o many Empeperors Kings Queenes Princes would have teddered themselves vnder mortal sinne as to confesse their sinns to fast to restore etc. go the religion warranted by all the foresaid notes and so against the haire of humane affection must needes bee true that hath 〈…〉 inviolable so long against so many assaultes of enimies and heresies For according to that before cited of Gamaliel if it bee not of God it will bee dissolved 220. Thus having proved and confirmed my doctrine and refuted your grounds and sacked the castel builded and raised by your owne phancie and having destroied the golden caife of your selfe liking conceipt to which you sacrifize I am to conclude admiring any one can bee so fonde as to follow you against the course of all tymes the recordes of Historie consent of Fathers etc. And I bewaile the fearfull resolution you shal make to Christ Jesus when he shal aske you whie you beleeve against the holie scriptures explicated and warranted by all the motives and onely because you perswade your selfe so 221 Whereas our resolution at the eternall tribunall shall bee full of comfort since wee beleeve Gods word allowed by all those notes and warrants â— by the interpretation of the holie Fathers Your plea shall not bee like the plea of that sonne that pretendes to bee heire of all saving of one pennie In that his father made his brother haeredem ex asse heire of one penie as he interpretts When as the grave tribunal judge learned Doctors lawes showes against him that to bee made haeredem ex asse is to bee possessed and invested in all and not to have one penie and no more 222. So you saie the sense of this or that parcell of scripture is as you conceive though against the letter as Hoc est corpus meum etc. and against all Doctors and expositors and records of tyme shâ—wing the practise of the church As that Clients cause shall bee full of feare his plea ridiculous the sentence sure to passe against him with a hisse and contempt of the whole bench So shall that irrevocable sentence of God passe against you in following your owne phancie against his word the holie Catholicke church the expounder thereof I praie God to averte his judgment and to wipe of the scailes of your eies that you maie see and imbrace the true church that with the blasphemous breath of your nostrilles you have persecuted From Justice hall in Newgate the 13. of September siple veteri 1613. 3 Esdrae 4. Magna est veritas et praevalet Great is truth and prevaileth Iohn Aynsworth Ad post script What I have said before or heare have delivered I have brought out of the scriptures and their interpretation and not against the scriptures as you object except you would have that onely to bee scriptures that in sense fittes the last of your owne phancie To conunence new disputes you know would be endless If you have nothing more to object against this maine truth begin what you will and I shal answer but onely be advertised here that I make a great impression of those wordes of S. John 2. x. 10. Si quis venit ad vos et hanc doctrinam non affert nolite recipere eum in domum nec Ave dixeritis Quie dixerit illi Ave communicat operibus ejus malignis ercuse me then if in salutation or freindly complement of grace mercie 〈◊〉 I doe not comply with you it proceeds not froÌ„ the hatred of your person whose conversion and salvation I desire but of your heresies and error but to answer your grounds and Argumâ—â—â—â— I shall ever be readie The answer to I. A. his third large writing To Mr Iohn Aynsworth prisoner in Iustice hall in Newgate grace mercie from God to find repentance unto salvation TWo things
faithful vvay of reasoning If as your maÌ„ner is you vvould have me to vnderstand it in the first I vvill so Then it is thus That which is not by it self known for Gods word cannot be tâ—e rule of faith This now I deny and your proof is vvanting The proof vvhich you make for it as you had set it down I admitt of concerâ—ing the vvord of God onely vvhere you extend Gods vvord to the definitions of the church c. I run not so farr vvith you But require you to prove your churches councils fathers definitions to be Gods vvord vvhich you doo not Your 2. proposition I deny for the scriptures by themselves vvithout your traditions may as easily be known for Gods vvord as the Sun in the firmament may be known to give light vvithout a candle This I vvill manifest hereafter Yoâ— seek to prove your aâ—â—ertion by authority of men That I refuse as insufficient by authority of Christ vvho theweth their religion to be vayn vvhich teach for doctrines the precepts of men Mat. 15. 9. Secondly you allege a reason Since we doo not see or heare God in his known Prophets to write or speak the word c. there must you say be one certayn rule or depositum fidei As 1 Tim. 6. 20. 2. Tim. 1. 13. 14. have thou a form of sound of words etc. whence you gather that Christians must keep acertain platforme of words delivered to them over and above Pauls epistles amongst which you name for one Transsubstantiation I answer first God his vvisdome power majesty truth c. are to be seen as evidently in the vvritings of the Prophets and Apostles as his eternall power and Godhead are to be seen in the creatures of the vvorld Rom. 1. Ps. 19. although Atheists cannot see these in the one nor Papists in the other Secondly as men doo not hear God vocally in his Prophets so if they did hear him in them or in Christ his sonn yet could they not beleeve vnless Gods spirit illuminated their harts Iohn 12. 37. 39. So your reason is against Christ himselfe as vvel as against the â—…pture Thirdly the church whereto you vvould send us when 1. â—ayth this is Gods vvord how shall men know it so to be any more then they knew the vvords that Christ spake to be Gods unless you lift vp your church above Christ. Fourthly vvhat church mean you Greek or Latine or AEthiopian and how shall men know Christs Church from Antichrists And if the Latin church tel us the fables of Tobit and Iudith are Gods canonicall scripture and the Greek church say they are nor but apocryphal vvhich of these shall vve beleeve Thus you vvould draw us into a vvilderness vvherein vve may loose all stay of faith and fall eyther into despayr or atheisme To those vvords of Paul I have answered before and to let pass your mistaking as if he did inioyn a sound of words as you vvrite further I vvould have you manifest if you can vvho are Timothees successors and vvith vvhom he left Pauls depositum as you call it And how a man may know your kenophonie and monstrous vvord of TraÌ„substantiatioÌ„ to be one of Pauls holsom vvords rather then the Lutherans Consubstantiation Your contending against the distinction vvhich I gave of beleeving things necessary to salvation and other things not necessary as whither Peter were ever at Rome or no and the like I leave to the judicious reader seing you cannot or vvill not vnderstand and rest in the truth Your marginall argument that The written word is not proved by an other written word therefore by tradition I reject as false and inconsequent so proved in my former vvriting You in reciting the scriptures vvhich I brought doo maym the texts to ease your shoulders In Iohn 20. 30 31. you leave out these words and that in beleeving you might have life through his name So in 2 Tim. 3. 16. 17. you neyther mention nor answer this that by the scriptures the man of God may be perfect and perfectly fitted vnto every good work Whereby â— proved that faith vnto life and every good vvork may be learned out of the scripture as I inferred When you cannot answer you call me the perverter of the holy Ghost Let the prudent judge Vnto your answers made to my evident demonstrations by the book of God that the scriptures and spirit of God are sufficient to prove and approve themselves to every conscience I need not make any replye but leave it vnto judgment But to help you if it may be I vvill breefly note your oversights 1. You allege my words sundrie times as if I had sayd Gods spirit is in all people vvhich I never spake nor thought but proved the contrary by Ioh. 14. 17. I sayd Gods spirit is in all his people vvhich if you doubt of see Rom 8. 9. 16. 1 Ioh. 2. 27. You barely say and prove not that in actu 2. the scriptures need testimony of others besides God and his spirit and themselves meaning your Church and Pope you seem to say the like of Christ himself as others of your side hâ—ve playnly spoken By which blasphemie God must be beholding to men Christ to the Pope that by their witness men may beleeve in Christ and his vvord The contrary is evident by Mat. 16. 17. flesh blood sayth Christ hath not reveled it vnto thee but my father vvhich is in heaven See also Gal. 1. 16. 17. and 2. 6. 9. 3. You are often vp agayn vvith your bastard phrase of the private spirit vvhereas al Gods children have the publick or catholick spirit if you vvill so call it as I playnly proved in my former vvriting you have nothing to say against it but that the spirit worketh otherwise in the head then in the foot vvhich is a manifest tergiversation vvhereof in due place 4. You cary your self in this passage about the spirit of God as a sish out of the element as having no relish or feeling of this heavenly grace whereat I much marvel not though I am sory for it Enter into your self and see by vvhat spirit you doo discern the Pope to be Christs vicar as you suppose and his traditions to be Christs oracles Will you not say it is by the spirit of God Now vve are assured that Christ is more able to furnish us vvith the spirit of God then the Pope is to furnish you That you perceive not Gods spirit to be in us but reproch us it is not strange for the vvorld as Christ sayth seeth him not neyther knoweth him Your fathers also could not perceive Gods spirit to be in Christ himself but sayd he had an vnclean spirit and we his servants are not better then our Lord. 5. So for the majesty of the scriptures shining as the sun in his strength by their majesty vvisdom harmony c. proving approving themselves one an
other to the faithfull conscience you turne vvind because we caÌ„not perswade the Arians c. by conference of scriptures to beleeve aright It is not what vve can perswade others but our selves For there are many Arians and other heretikâ— vvhich you vvith your fathers councils Popes are not able to convert Yet you think your Popes decrees are Gods vvord and vve know that the holy scriptures are so indeed And the more to convince you look to your Mr. as you called him Cardinall Bellarmine and see a sound argument of his to prove the knowledge and assurance of the scriptures to be of God by the testimony of the scripture it selfe Bellar. de verb. dei I. 1. c. 2. argument 4. 6. You ask a question thinking to intangle me what the seal of the spirit is and you suppose divers answers Because you are so partial a judge of my spirit I pray aske your Pope what the seale of his spirit is and how he discerns scripture whither he build without ground as you say I doo Look what he can wel answer for himself to satisfy your conscience that think to be answered by me In the mean while mind that the seal of the spirit is for my own assurance and comfort which concerneth an other man nothing 2 Cor. 1. 22. 1 Cor. 2. 11. 7. You having my answer already doo refuse it saying it is most false that the scriptures are distinguished from other books by themselves as light from darknes For then say you every one that had but naturall perfection of the organ and free proposing of the object should distinguish this light This say I is most true for the law of God is a light Prov. 6. 23. which when it is by him free proposed and the organ that is the mind of man wich now is blinded recovereth naturall perfection that is to say is illuminated or renued in knowledge after the image of him that created it every such man with his perfect organ seeth the word of God to be in the scriptures as every man that hath a perfect naturall ey seeth the light of the sun and can assure himself hereof though he goe not to Rome to ask the Pope whither the sun gives light or no. But you are as a man without sense that though the sun shine at noon day yet if the Pope say it is midnight you will beleeve him so on the contrary For you profess to beleeve each part of scripture to be Gods holy word derived from the fulnes of truth Now this is because the Pope tells you so and he tells you also that the books of Tobit Iudith Maccabees c. are scripture canonicall although in them there be apparant lyes as you may see Tobit 12. 15. compared with Tob. 15. 18. Iudith 9. 2. compared with Gen. 49 5. 6. 1 Mac. 6 16. compared with 2. Mac. 1 16. 2 Mac. 1. 19. coÌ„pared with 2 King 25. 1. c. so 2. Mac. 1. 20. 21. 22. 31. many the like Now though the Apostle sayth no lye is of the truth 1 Ioh. 2. 21. yet you beleeve these lyes are derived from the fulnes of truth because the Pope will have it so to be Thus the blind lead the blind into the ditch So you doo not by your private spirit as you say distinguish heritiks from true beleevers but by the definitions and declarations of the church that is I trow of the Pope I shewed you a better way by the Apostle 1 Ioh. 4. 1. 4. but you love darknes better then light And by your grounds if you had lived in Christs dayes on earth you would have distinguished Christ as an heretick from true beleeving Iewes by the definitions of that church and Preisthood Vnto Iewes you confess you must shew other grounds then your Popes authority But if they retort vpon you your private spirit as you doo to me eyther your mouth is stopped or your conscience in pleading against me as you doo is corrupted Yea when you are driven about the high Preists that condemned Christ to say their ignorance was most vincible by their own law which was the scriptures your own mouth giveth sentence against you For by the same law say I the ignorance of your Romish Preisthood is most vincible also Your owne traditions are of no more force against us then the Iewes were against Christ. You charge me with racking many wrested places of scripture to prove the church of God invisible and you oppose many scriptures against it I answer eyther your care was litle or your conscience was large to write so vntruely The question was whither the church erred or no that I proved by many examples and testimonies of scripture as is to be seen in my former writing when your mouth is stopped her in you pass by all that I alleged and turne to another matter wherin you seem to say somewhat and answer vnto scriptures which I mentioned not I mean to hold to the point and not to follow your wandrings which are in the moveable pathes of that strange womaÌ„ Prâ— 5. 6 That which you answer to my demonstration of the Labâ—riâ—th of your religion leading to the Pope c. I shall not bestow labour to reply upon but leave it to judgment so for your answers to the scriptures by me alleged for I will not strive to have the last word Whither I answered nothing as you say to your reason let the reader see Your 2. Argument from the hardnes of the scriptures you agayn repete and dilate Seing you make no other proofe then was before I vvil not follow you to repete my answers but referr to my former writings To prov 8. 8. 9. you reply it is to be vnderstood eyther of generall doctrine or of precepts of manners and good life I answer you ought not so to restrayn it For wisdom there sayth al her words are righteous all are playn will you say nay generall doctrines are playn but not particular precepts of manners but not of faith Belike then the foolish woman that whore of Babylon Apo. 17. must explayn matters of faith and particular doctrines Well I shall content me with Wisdoms playn words and vvhat she teacheth not I regard not to learne if you vvill needs goe to the banket of stollen vvaters and hid bread know that the dead are there if you vvill take vvarning Where I shewed how your Popes determinations make Gods law more hard to simple men instancing the second commandement corrupted by your glosses and distinctions You take vpon you to defend your image-worship by the brazen Serpent and Cherubims And might not Ieroboam so have defended his golden calves Gods law sayth Thou shalt not make to thy self any similitudes thou shalt not bow down to them nor vvorship them you make many similitudes of God Christ
Angels men vvomen cross c. and yee bow down before them vvhereas the similitudes vvhich God commanded vvere not to be vvorshiped as you doo the cross the brazen Serpent vvhich you allege shewes it Besides vvill your Pope take vpon him Gods place and power and make vvhat images he thinks good because God made such as pleased him Why then if he had lived in Ieroboams dayes he might have made a Temple at Bethel because God made one in Ierusalem and set vp Preists altars sacrifices of his own head because God had appointed such in Iudah And now let your Pope make new Churches new Sacraments new Ministeries yea an other Testament because Christ did so But for your idolatries they perteyn to an other place then this I leave it to the judgment of every godly hart vvhither your Popish glosses decrees distinctions c. be not more dark and intricate then the holy scriptures vvhich are a lamp to our feet and a light to our pathes And as for your Councils and Fathers to vvhom so often you flee for help vvhen holy scriptures fayl you they are so cross and intricate in themselves and one to another that the Pope vvith all his guard could never yet neyther ever vvilbe able to reconcile them Your Mr. Cardinall Bellarmine useth them as men doo Counters that sometime stand for pounds sometime for halfe pence So he sometime alloweth the Doctors sometime dismisseth them as erring from the truth Yet you to brave your cause muster their names vvhose vertues you doo not imitate You much blame me as for wilfull error in citing Card. Bellarmines vvritings as the determinations of the Pope Beare vvith me I knew not that your Cardinal had a private spirit differing from your Pope and bear part of the blame vvith me your selfe that referred me in your former vvriting to answer Bellarmine your master Vnto my proof frō 1 Cor. 4. 1. that the other Apostles vvere dispensers of Gods mysteries as vvell as Peter so other Bishops now as well as the Bishop of Rome you answer they be all alike in power of order but not of jurisdiction This your distinction I deny and in my former vvritings disproved it and you bring not neyther can bring any vvord of God to confirme it and therefore as your manner in such exigents is you flee to humane authority Now I graunt that your Popes throne is from men or from the Dragon if you will But Gods vvord sayth A man can receive nothing unless it be given him from heaven John 3. 27. From this you pass to Act. 15. afterwards you goe back again to other things that in order vvere before I answered twise your reasons from that scripture shewing how you constreyn it beyond all reason yet the 3. time you press it thus From v. 6. the Apostles and Ancients assibled you note it against us that vvould you say have all men to give their voice and be present in council I answer in v. 4. it is shewed they were received of the Church and of the Apostles and ancients In v. 12. it is sayd all the multitude kept silence In v. 22. it is sayd it seemed good to the Apostles ancients with the whole church to send c. In v. 23. the letters vvere thus vvritten The Apostles ancients and the brethren unto the brethrē c. v. 25. It seemed good to us vvhē vve vvere come togither vvith one accord c. All vvhich doo manifest that the people vvere present and not the Apostles and ancients onely as you from an usual figurative speech in v. 6. mistaken vvould collect From v. 7. you gather that vvhen there vvas made a great disputation Peter rising up and speaking by his authority composed that great dispuration that is setled the height of their difference which argues superiority And eftsoones you press this word great disputation for Peters rising vp vvas before proved to be but a staff of reed for the Pope I answer you dally vvith the holy scriptures unsufferably The argument if it wil help you should be this Whosoever in a Council when there is great disputation riseth up speaketh he is head of that council yea and of the vniversal church But Peter in a council vvhen there vvas great disputation rose up and spake therefore he vvas head I deny your first proposition as strayned against scripture and light of reason And I vvould pray you in sooth to answer vvhither in the many contentious Councils vvhich have been since the Apostles dayes there have not been sundry men that rose up and spake when there was great disputation and vvhither they vvere all heads of the church therefore That vvhich you add of Peters composing the great disputation by his authoritie is not of the text but a gloss of your private spirit Your extenuating of the Apostle Iames his authority vvho spake last and gave judgment or sentence v. 19. sheweth hovv partiall you are for S. Peter But I vvill cease from answering vvords of vvind Let him that readeth that scripture judge vvhither of the two had the chiefest place Your exception that it is not sayd Peter spoke those words risen but when he was rising as if you vvould put a cushion vnder him to sit down agayn is altogither vnworthy to be answered For besides that the very same speech is used of Gamaliel as I told you in Act. 5 34. you might even as vvel say that Peter vvent not to Ioppa risen but when he was rising Act. 9. 39. and that Peter vvas sent to goe to Cornelius and Paul to goe to Damascus not vvhen they vvere risen but vvhen they vvere rising seing there is one and the same vvord and phrase used in all these and sundry other like places But such traditionall expositions of holy scripture is your church fayn to use for vvant of better to bolster vp her preeminence Gamaliel you say spake rather as a freind then as a judge as a Cardinall in the Popes conclavi rather then as a Pope Be it so yet he rose up I trow vvhen he spake so then rising up to speak is no proof of superiority and you might have spared this strife about your frivolous reason Yet from Act. 13. 16. you vvould gather by Pauls rising up in the Synagogue that he vvas cheif preacher Well let your argument from rising to speak be layd up in the Popes conclavi for to prove his preeminence if need be to speak in a church as Paul did in that synagogue You bethink you and turn back to your other pervered place of 2. Pet. 1. 20. cited as you pretend by you thus No prophesy is made by private interpretation vvhich you say I call and doo not prove a bastard phrase I answer you tvvise cited it private spirit interpretation and had vvritten it so this third time but blotted out the
Iam. 2. 14. 17. 20. from that men fall and there is the faith of Gods elect Tit. 1. 1. and this faith justifieth Rom. 4. 3. 5. 5. 1. and from it men never fall finally They may fall into syn by infirmity but shall not be cast off for the Lord putteth under his hand Psal. 37. 24. yea though they fall seven times yet they rise agayn but the vvicked fall into mischief Prov. 24. 16. This is my faith and your contrary Popish heresies I abhorr You deny not but your Popes may be reprobates and damned in hel I trow then hel gates doo prevayl against them and so the promise in Mat. 16. 18. perteyns not vnto them You except the Divil prevayls not against the Pope as he is head of the church as he defines e◠cathedra Yes doubtless therein he most prevayls against him because he allures him into Christs place and so makes him Antichrist And if you had the mind of Christ you would no more regard vvhat Apolluon the P. of Rome defineth ex cathedra unless he could prove it by the holy scriptures then what Apollo the D. of Delphos divined ex tripode 4. Your fourth shew from Peters confirming his brethren being confuted by scriptures Act. 14. 22. and 15. 41. 32. c. you now say the other Apostles confirmed not as the supreme pastor not as the head of the church by office I answer neyther did Peter so if you add that to your wrested text God will reprove you Prov. 30. 6. and your humane testimonies vvhich you abuse also shall not save you You digress to entwite me with gross corruption of the text for Englishing presbyteros an Elder I am loth to folow your outroades onely let me tel you that you check herein your authentik Latin translation which turneth it Senior and Major nat◠and in your divinitie Englishing both Cohen Hiereus a Preist and Zaken Presbuteros a Preist as if these were one you deceiv the simple with a sophistical aequivocatiō And you may as wel say the Apostles were idiots because they are caled idiotai Act. 4. 13. as say Christs ministers are Preists vnderstanding sacrificing Preists because they are caled Presbyteri 5. You daily agayn about Peters feet first washed as some suppose I let you alone vvith your fansie let the reader judge whither it be a fit proof for his headship 6. So for Peters martyrdome vvhence you conclude it was promised to Peter to be head of the church It is a bold untruth the text sayth no such words proveth no such thing 7. Your 7. show was gathered also from a false translation restrayning they began Act. 2. 4. to Peter as if he began which being but a guess you now shrink from that to the next passage in v. 14 c. where from Peters sermon you would prove him head of the church It is a vvorld to see vvhat shifts you are driven to the very naming of them is to all wise men ridiculous But if Peter for first preaching was head of the church that Pope vvhich first left preaching was the head of the Beast and so all your unpreaching Popes at least are Antichrists You graunt agayn that the first miracle which you uncertainly supposed S. Peter vvrought Act. 2. 11. dooth not solely convince what you would herein I beleeve you But I marvel at your discretion that think a number of futilous and vvorthless arguments being heaped togither would perswade any vnto popery unless they be such as are spoken of Prov. 9. 16. who so is simple let him come hither And here you are too lavish of your tongue in saying I cannot deny but our Saviour caleth Peter the rock first washeth his feet that Peter booth the first miracles c. I denyed the first and you cannot prove the latter Though were they al granted for Peter yet your applying them to your Pope is altogither groundless The first excommunication by Peter inferrs you think that he was head Before you urged the act which being proved insufficient now yee flee to the first doing of the act At the most this sheweth but primacie in order which I graunted seing Paul and others did the like But by your manner of reasoning vvhosoever dooth any thing first shall be head of the church And why I pray you by like reason should not those Popes that first practised Simony sorcerie and hypocrisie be heads of the man of syn You leav it for the reader to judge whither all these reasons togither shew not that Peter was rock and head of the church I also referr it to judgment And if your vayn shewes for Peter be not sound proofs for your Pope then he is left naked as the heath in the wildernes Ier. 17. 6. I proved by the scriptures Mat. 28. 18. 19. 20. Ioh. 20. 21. 22. 23. Act. 2. 4. that the other Apostles had equal office charge and power vvith Peter himself you answer the places prove nothing and if ought it is equality of order not of jurisdiction Thus you resist the truth vvithout reason it vvere vvell if you would add doctrine to your lips When all the Apostles are sent by the power of Christ vvith like vvords and authority vvhen the rest as Paul doo whatsoever Peter himself did in word prayer Sacraments censures miracles c. you barely say they vvere not equall in jurisdiction You vveary me vvith your own words and repetitions without proof Seing Gods vvord moves you not let me trie vvhat man 's will doo The rest of the Apostles sayth one of your Doctors vvere verily the same that Peter vvas indued vvith equal participation of honor and of power Being blamed for your making Peter head and rock of the church vvhich are Christs peculiar titles You answer he is the ministerial subordinat head to Christ as Christ is the foundation 1 Cor. 3. 11. yet the Apostles are foundations Eph 2. 20. I answer first Gods word no where caleth Peter the head and vvhy will you be vviser then God Secondly the Apostles because they layd the foundation vvhich vvas Christ as Paul sheweth 1. Cor. 3 10. 11. therfore the Church is sayd to be built upon their foundation Eph. 2. 20. And in this they vvere equal if any excelled it vvas Paul who laboured in laying the foundation more then the rest 2 Cor. 12. 11. 1 Cor. 15. 10. In this sense if you speak of ministerial head that by the ministery of the word Peter preached the head Christ the thing is true but the phrase is not good it vvas true in Paul also as much as Peter yea in all the Apostles and thus all Christs ministers at this day minister and preach him the head vvhich the Pope dooth not But you feign a thing which never vvas that Christ should substitute Peter for head in his place absence no scripture tells
you this but the contrary for Christ being present and vvalking vvith his churches needeth no vicar And this title head God in his vvord giveth onely to Christ Col. 1. 18. Yet you leaving Gods vvord fly to your S. Basil for succor that all men may see your church and prelacy is built on the sands of mens traditions not on the Rock of divine oracles You vvill not from it but Peter signifies a rock vvhich I have disproved and shewed that Petros of Petra the Rock and Cephas of Ceph is no more then to be a Christian of Christ. Peter vvas a principal stone yea the first if you vvill layd upon Christ the chief corner stone the Rock all Christians are living stones layd on him also Your racked allegations from Augustine and other Doctors I vvil not spend time to confute for I build my religion vpon the Rock Christ not upon men Your reason vvhy the gender vvas not changed in Christs name as in Peters is for that all vvhich admitted of his doctrine vvould not deny him to be head of the church I see you love to say somwhat unto every thing I also may say all vvhich admitt of the Popes doctrine vvill not deny Peter to be head of the church so by your argument there was no need to change the gender for him neyther And so the scripture hath doon somthing needless or els your answer is fruitless How you save Optatus credit and your self from blame for falsely interpreting Cephas a head contrary to the holy Ghost Ioh. 1. 43. vvho interpreteth it a stone I leave it for the learned to judge Your exception that Peter vvas not elected to be the mouth of the rest vvas refelled in my former vvriting if you vvould rest for Thomas Philip Iude vvere not elected any more then Peter to speak for the other disciples Ioh. 14. 5. 8. 22. yet you vvill not have them heads So your distination of the Apostles equallity in power of order not of jurisdiction is a bare repetition of a thing never proved but before refuted And where you add equall as they were Apostles but not as they were Bishops it is mere trifling you might as vvell say equal as they were men but not as they vvere living creatures For they vvere no otherweise Bishops then as they were Apostles And in Act. 1. you may see that Iudas his Episcopee or Bishops office vvas no other then his Apostolee or Apostles office Act. 1. v. 20. compared vvith v. 17. 25. 26. Besides by 1. Cor. 12. 28. and Ephe. 4. 11. you may see the Apostles were by office the first in the church that if the other were equal vvith Peter in the Apostleship as you graunt they vvere equal also in al power that if you resist any longer you vvill be condemned of your self Your succession grounded but vpon mens report I allow not of for you build on boggs Your understanding of that admonition Rom. 11. 20. 22. c. is partly true and against your self in that you vvrote before S. 162. partly it is frivolous vvhiles you dream of more previlege to the See of Roome and Bishop there then to others churches and Bishops You have no colour for this in the testament of Christ yet is it the mayn thing that yow should prove if it were possible No citie in the world remayneth so execrable by Gods word as Rome for killing Christ of old by her power and pollicie and for being Antichrists throne Rev. 17. and 18. It is worth the noting that you doo not hold the Pope is necessarily indued with Gods holy grace And that in matters of fact he maysyn you say as well as any other Your Popes facts I am sure prove this if any shoud have the face to deny it Hereupon I inferr that your Popes are not members and so not possibly heads of the catholik church of God It is high blasphemy to say the head of that church may want Gods holy grace Colos. 1 18. c. 2 19. How now doo you know that the traditions and definitions of your graceless Popes are of God If you trie them not by the scriptures which you dare not because of the private spirit they may deceive and damne your soul as well as any other men You say you hold a necessary assistance which the Pope hath of the holy Ghost as he defines ex cathedra And upon what ground hold you this You find in Gods book no mention eyther of your Pope or of his Chayr for good The Apostle Peter directeth us to that vvhich holy men of God spake not to that vvith Satans slaves doo teach such as vvas P. Silvester the 2. of vvhom Cardinal Benno vvriteth that he came up out of the abyss or bottomless deep o◠divine permission And by the same answers of the Divils vvherby he had deceived many he vvas also deceived himself vvas intercepted vvith suddayn death by the judgment of God And yet vvil you trust such a miscreant that out of his chayr he vvill tel you none but divine oracles Never vvas there such a thing known since the beginning of the vvorld that a graceless reprobate should have necessarily the assistance of the holy Ghost so often as he sits him down on his chayr to define or determine the matters of God No religion on earth to my knowledge ever admitted such an unreasonable doctrine for vvhich you have no proof unless from the Popes own ungracious spirit vvhereby he exalteth himself against all that is caled God 2. Thes. 2 4. Notvvithstanding you labour to justify your S. Leo that sayd the head meaning I trow your ministeriall head at Rome infuseth grace to the whole church that God took S. Peter into the fellowship of the individual vnity And doe you in earnest beleev these things of your reprobate Popes as of S. Silvester the 2. of that Divil incarnate S. Iohn the 22. their like I perceive it is not vvithout cause that the scarlet coloured beast is sayd to be full of the names of blasphemie And here you say I see your religiō is no upstart religiō that so many yeres agoe was mainteyned Yes upstart it is but many yeres agoe I grant for the mysterie of iniquity did vvork evē vvhiles Paul lived 2 Thes. 2. 7. he told how after his departure greivous wolves should enter not sparing the flock under the name of wolves comprehending it may be Lions also and all other salvage beasts Wherefore Antichrist is an old man though you mistake as if he were yet scarse in his cradle 2. You helpe S. Leo as meaning that vvhich S. Peter sayd of such as should be partakers of the godly nature I answer first this is a very friendly interpretation that the fellowship of the individual unity should be but participation of the godly nature which al Christiās are partakers of A man may
he is the eight and is one of the seaven meaning the Popes vvho by an Ecclesiasticall goverment differ from the civil Emperors and so are an eight yet because they reign togither vvith the Emperours they make as it were one regiment and so the eight is one of the seven as the scripture sayth And that the word King dooth signify a kingdome or regiment appeareth by Dan. 7. 17. where the 4. beasts are sayd to be 4. kings meaning kingdomes as is explayned in v. 23. the fourth beast is the fourth kingdome So this exposition is playn and according to truth And thus notwithstanding all that you have brought the Pope remayneth Antichrist And think it not much that Antichrist is so ancient The Iewes look for Christ and he is come 1600. yeres agoe but they know him not You looke for Antichrist and he hath been wel nigh so many yeres in the vvorld and you are not aware If you read the book of the Revelation judicially God opening your hart you may discern that mysterie of Babylon which yet is hidden from your eyes And for preeminence forbidden to Christs ministers see Mat. 20. 25. 26. Luk. 22. 25. 26. That which you allege of Tit. 2. 15. showes the power authoritie of the word duly preached and applyed to mens consciences and is not peculiar to the head of the church the Pope for you see Titus there had it but it is common to all Christs ministers You turne back to your general argument vvhich I had confuted How good a defense you have brought I am content to let the prudent reader judge Onely where you charge me vvith falshood for saying the Pope with you is above the law which you deny in my sense I answer my sense is according to your own explication that extrinsecally and as it is to be knowen of us Gods word depends on the churches that is the Popes authority He putteth Apocryphal lying books in to the holy canon his interpretation though absurd and hereticall must stand for authentick and a definition of his ex cathedra you reverence as an oracle And he dispenseth against Gods law Is not he now above yea he sitteth as God in the Temple of God as Paul prophesied 2 Thes. 2. 4. The third thing which heretofore the seventh thing which now you should prove is that the indeficieÌ„t rule of our fayth is onely to be found in the â—â—man catholick church sentence and not in private mens illuminatioÌ„s c. I hold neyther of these as I told you before You labour agayn to mainteyn the former First you prove this in that the RomaÌ„ church you say is the onely true catholick church I answer You fayrly beg the question and would prove it is so because it is so You speak vntruely in calling her the true church proudly in caling her the onely true church absurdly in caling her the catholick that is the vniversal church None of all these can you make any proof of you referr in the margin to S. 123. and let men look what proof they can find there I for the present referr you and all to your own Cardinal Baronius testimonie of your holy church as he found it in his ancient records and put it in his Chronicles thus What was then the face of the holy Roman church how filthy was it when most mighty and eke most filthy whores ruled at Rome at whose pleasure seats were changed Bishops were given which is horrible and vile to heare false-Popes their paramours were intruded into Peters seat c. Loe here the bewty of that Catholick church whose sentence you say is the indeficient rule of your faith You are glad that I refuse the name Catholik and I am glad of and content me with that ancient name of a Christian given of God Act. 11 26 keep you your new fangled name of your own divising to be called a catholik that is an Universal I envie you not You are very angrie that I proved unto you the marks of your Roman church by the word of God which you had set down without proof You had cause rather to be thankfull But now the reader may see how having nothing soundly to reply you wilfully persist in your error for which I am sory Your reproches I bear with patience Leaving your former reasons helpless you conclude with a coÌ„mon argumeÌ„t for your church religioÌ„ That seing your faith is coÌ„fessed to be so ancient if it be not froÌ„ God it must be grounded on carnal motives viz the profit of the spiritual or the temporall But it is not you say for the profit or pleasure of the clergie as appeares by their cha â—â—ity vowes fasting praying c. Nor of temporal Princes for how should so many Emperors Kings c. be brought to confess their syns fast c. I answer first your religioÌ„ in som points of it is ancient I coÌ„fess eveÌ„ as ancienâ— as the Apostles daies vvhen the mystery of iniquity begaÌ„ to work 2. Thes. 2. 7. men loved preeminence 3. Iohn 9. many Antichrists vvent abroad 1 Ioh. 2. 18. vvhich vvere foretunners of the great Antichrist folowing Who vvas to be reveled vvhen he that theÌ„ letted viz. the heathen Empire vvas taken out of the vvay 2. Thes. 2. 7. 8. But yet the truth of the Gospel preached by the Apostles vvas more ancient 1 Ioh. 2. 24. which therefore is to be our rule and stay not humane doctrines that came up after Secondly I answer the ambition profit and pleasure of the Bishops and Preists vvere the motives unto this height of evil For histories record the contentions that vvere in churches and among Bishops especially of Rome and of Constantinople vvho should be greatest This made P. Gregory to say the King of pride is at haud and quod dici quoque nefas est an arwie of Preists is ready for him I wish you vvould beleeve this Popes tradition here As for Profits and pleasures vvho seeth not that Christ and his Apostles being poor and Peter himself having neyther silver nor gold to give a needy man Act. 3. 6. Your clergy have gotten such patrimonies falsly purloyned in S. Peters name as they are of the richest in the vvorld their treasures infinite their palaces like Kings their apparel prince like their Kitchins ful of the finest fare the plesantest fertilest lands in all countries being ingrossed for the clergie for church livings Their doctrines of Purgatory and pardons being onely to pick mens purfes Their vowes of chastitie being to desile themselves in filthy Sodonne adulterie and fornication vvitness the 6000. childrens heads that vvere found murdered in P. Gregories fishpond which moved him to reverse his own wicked decree that restreyned the Clergie froÌ„ their wives besides infinite other testimonies of these evils in other places Their fasting being a mere mockery to absteyn superstitiously
have been confounded and abolished and this hath been stablished against the forces of the divil and of the princes and powers of the world and sense of the flesh and naturall minde of man Al which doo manifest that these cannot but be of God The inward testification of God is by his Holy spirit which illumineth the mind to vnderstand the things given us of God writeth them in our harts and sealeth up the assurance of the promises that ar in them unto the beleeving conscience The secondary testimony that the scriptures ar of God is from men as First the Vniversal consent of churches in all ages of the Iewes first and after of the Christians in all places which have received beleeved and obeyed the Holy scriptures as the Oracles of God yea even Antichristians themselves acknowledge them to be from heaven Secondly the multitude of men that have given their lives for defense of these scriptures and doctrines taught in them yea even the heretikâ—s themselves who thought their errors were confirmed by these scriptures and therfore died in them are not excluded from this motive which is such as the like can not be shewed of any book under the sun The first outward proofs which God hath engraved in the scriptures themselves are sufficient to convince al men and make them without excuse For as the invisible thinges of God that is his eternal power and godhead are to be seen in his works the creatures Rom. 1. 20 so the invisible things of Gods word the powrfulnes wisdom and alsufficiencie therof unto mans salvation are to be seen in the Holy scriptures which they that beleeve not wil not be perswaded though one should ryse agayne from the dead Luk. 16. 31. And if God will damn the wicked that doo not by his works discern him and honour him as God much more wil he damn the prophane that doo not by his scriptures discern his holy wil and obey the same The inward testification by the spirit of God in the beleevers hart is for the comfort and assurance of every one that hath it not for any outward proof to others much less to the wicked which have it not neyther can perceive it In vayn therfore doth Mr. I. A. and the papists cal for manifestation of that which they can not discern and cavil against the spirit as not a due outward proof when we allege it not for that end Now wil I set down some motives which may draw any reasonable infidel if God shut not up his hart from understanding to come â—ather unto true Christianity with us the Reformed churches then unto Catholikisme or Popery with the Romists First we allege for the triall of our faith and religion the most ancient records in the world as Moses and after him the Prophets and the Apostles Euangelists first founders of ChristiaÌ„ religion through the earth But Papists dare not stand to these but allege for the triall of their religion later new records of Doctors Councills Popes c. Novv in all reason that vvhich is most ancient should be most true both as Gods lavv shevveth and as Tertullian also heretofore pleaded Secondly we allow al men by that common light and judgment which God hath graven in the hart of man which is the ground of al expositions to read hear examine and judge of our proofs reasons testimonies and therfore â—oâ— exhort al to have the scriptures and to peruse them and to try the spirits of al men But Papists allow not their ignorant disciples â—o read or hear the scriptures in their mother tongue nor to try their doctrines spirits which is a signe that they ar not of God but doo captive al mens judgments unto the definitive sentences of their Popes which is as if men should put out their own eyes that the Pope might lead them blind Thirdly the grounds which we build upon namely the Prophets and Apostles writings are both commanded of God and by Papists themselves the scriptures are acknowledged to be of God authentik and canonical so that we build upon the Rock even our adversaties being judges But their traditions and Popes decrees besides scripture are forbidden of God and allowed of none save themselves neyther doo vve acknowledg or can they ever prove them to be of God any otherwise then Mahomet may vvarrant his Alkoran or the Iewes their Thalmud Fourthly the writers of our grounds the Holy scriptures vvere all holy persons governed by the spirit of God and not any one of them vvas a reprobate But the writers and determiners of popish traditions have been many of them and that by the papists owne confession most wicked and vile persons that sold themselves unto syn and Satan al dayes of their life and got their popedomes some by simonie and bribes some by schisme and sedition and other like evil meanes Therfore in al reason they are nothing so vvorthy to be beleeved or rested vpon as the sacred vvriters on vvhome vve depend Fiftly the Holy Apostles Prophets to vvhose vvritings vve cleave preached not themselves but Gods law and Christ drew no man to subjection unto themselves but unto God sought not in their doctrines or vvritings their ovvn vvealth or vvorldly prefermeÌ„t sold not the Gospel nor made marchandise of it Wheras Popes on vvhose definitive sentences Papists doo rely preach themselves as wee declare sayth P. Boniface we define and pronounce that it is altogither of necessity to salvation that every humane creature be under the Byshop of Rome So other their traditions and definitions tend to the maintenauce of their own pomp dignity vvorldly vvealth and pleasures for their Popes bulls pardons and blessed reliks are set to sale for money so are their Preists masses and Trentals as the vvorld vvel knoweth and therefore of all naturall vvise men are justly to be suspected and the holy Prophets to be preferred much before them Sixtly the holy vvriters vvhom vve depend on are all of such authority and credit as vve admit of proof from any one of them because they all teach one faith and obedience Whereas Papists send men to Bishops Doctors Fathers Councils which disagree one from another so making great show of them to the simple wheras themselves as often as they lyst refuse the judgment and exposition of their fathers doctors c. as is to be seen in Cardinal Bellarmine and others that often doo refuse the sentences of the Fathers and conclude vvith the Council of Trent or definitive sentence of the Pope Seventhly the scriptures that vve build upon doo all agree and are â—one contrary one to another but hovv ever there â—ay seem contradiction yet they are easily even by themselves reconciled if men vvil labour in them But Papists have also for their rules of faith Apocryphal booke and fables vvherein are many open lyes and vnreconcilable contradictions against the Prophets as Tob. 12. 15.
besides prohibits onely that which is contrarie S. Iohn himself otherwise by M. H. A. should sin The like showed My doctrin warranted by Gods own word The desinatioÌ„s of the church are Gods Mat. 18 17. et 1â— Deâ— 19 15. In opere imperfecto c. 7. Math. D. Ambrose lib. de Paâ—adiso c. 12. Nihil igitur l. quod bonum videtur Mark vvel Deut. 32. vers 7. Psal. 43 1. Prov. 1 8. Esa. 38. 19. Ier. 6 16. Eccle. 8 11. 4. Esdr. 14. 3. 2. Thes. 2 15. 1. Tim. 6 20. 2 Tim 2 1. and see whether unvvritten traditions are not to be observed seen 〈◊〉 S. Chrys. plaine vvords for tradition See 〈◊〉 lib. 3. c. 4. Clemens Alexand lib. 5. Streat c. 2. Orig. lib. 5. super numeros Athanas. epistolâ ad Epictetum D. Ambrosius lib. de â—ide 3. c. 7. epistola 83. D. Aug lib. contra Cresco Grammat c. 33 lib contra epistolam Manich quaÌ„ vocant fundamentum c. 5. et epistola â—6 ad Casul vide n. â—1 THE II. PART The rule of our faith the writteÌ„ vnwritteÌ„ word jointly Traâ—it was once the total rule therfore it may be thâ— partial The â—h of God taught onely by tradition 2470 yeres Tradition directed men after writteÌ„ law vide n. 16. Many places of the old testamâ— for tradit 2â— S Dyon Arâ—opag 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Clâ—meas Alex. Thâ—ancâ—â—â— fathers most plain for the allowing of tradition Origen S. Athanasius S. Basil. The 2. coâ—cel of Nice S. Hierom â— S. August 22. yea our â—aâ— adversarâ—oâ— confirm this M. Luther Iohn Calv. Ph MeliÌ„c Diverse reasons whiâ— God vseth traditions D. Hyll supra 2. Psal. Orig. homil 5. Num lib. 4. Esdras c. 14. v. 5 Dyonis Areopag 1. Cor. 3. 2 Hebr 5. 1â— The secoÌ„d third parts conâ—ined THE 3. PART 1. Ratio Major Minor Conclusio My Major proved 27. Stil it is Gods word whether it be mediat or immediat spokeÌ„ or written My Miner proved S. August saying Pâ—oved also by Protestants What S. Pa meanâ— by his â—epositum Platform of words phrase over above the scripture to be observed D. Aug l. 10. de â—iv Dâ—i c â—3 His ans to my â—â—st aâ—â— I did rightly infer out of his wordes The writte word not proved by another written word go by traditioÌ„ A place of script produced ans Another answered Mr H A. his first answ how the word of God is known so to be How Christ both hath no need hath need of mans testimoniâ— Scriptures in actu 2. not in 1. needs witness His 2. answer What he means by the 〈…〉 in all people That this spirit is not in the church of Amsterda His third Answer What is to be understood by comparing one place with another Collatione in diverse times in the self maÌ„ often causeth divers judgments Hereticks have had stil this coÌ„parison oâ— places Your grouÌ„d not able to coÌ„fute an Arâ—an What the seale of your pâ—it is His ground tâ—achâ—th â— mâ—â— beleâ—ves before he reades the scripture Another aâ—s of his Calv. â— inst c. 7. S. â— 2. 4 〈◊〉 â— Al heretiks doe bâ—ag of their private spirit How I distinguish hereticks The Iewes cannot object against us the law and the Prophets Generall motives to conâ—â—nce a Iew. How the high preist hood did not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Many places oâ—â—olâ— scripture to prove the visibilitie of the church That the church of God hath never erred AdaÌ„ did not err in doctrine if he did against our adversaries owne grounds Moses al the Levites free froÌ„â—dolatrie Iudg. 2. How the word all is to be understood In what sense Elias was said to be left alone A breif râ—â— so that the ch of God is and hath been stilâ— visible The resolution of my religioÌ„ the same with S. Cypr. How the word of God the Church may depâ—â— I doe not deny for my witness the spirit of God The difficultie and hardness of thâ— scriptures in principal matters Parvus error in principio magnus est in fine His answer refuted Not onely the matter but the manner of proving is difficult The brasen serpent before an image became an idol a. Cor. 6 16 Our adversaries ignorance like that of the Moabites 〈◊〉 Latria Dulia All the Apostles alike in power of order but not in jurisdictioÌ„ The Popes confirmation of the CouÌ„cel of Châ—lc required contra hereticum Eutich This was a judicial coÌ„firmation Diverse Councelâ—s confirmed by Popes Act. 15. against M. H A. Note The 19 v. examined S. Hieron Also v. 15. 16. Act. 15. The reason why S. Iames did speak S. Peter did not speak risen but rising Why Gamaliel rose up Gamaliel spoke rather as a â—â—â—ind then as a judge Gamaliel did use rather a favorable perswasion then a definitive sentence Act. 17 16. makes against him His similitude against him self The First of Pope Stephen examined Pope Formosus witnessed for a holy man Decret 40 examined Boniface no flattâ—â—er of the Pope ad â— 6. distinct 〈◊〉 How the P. dispenseth against the law of nature in som sense â—â— My third Argumenâ— M. H. A. contented to be drie beaten The uniform consent of the church may easilie distinguish whether scriptures 〈◊〉 â—acked Many thinges beleeved not expressed in the 〈…〉 Thatâ—… Intriâ—secal he the word of God is so of it self but to bee knowen of us it depends of the tradition of the Church THE FOVRTH PART Mr. M. A. walkes in a circle Ioh. 15 16. Ioh. 16. 14. Ioh. 3. 9. 11 Here it is proved that he doth petere principium Mr H. A. walkes in a circle Jo. 10. 27. His discourse is unprofitable Mr H. A. to solution circular fruitless endlesse He cannot tell what this inward testificatioÌ„ is Mr H. A. resolution uncertain Many absurdities sequeles of his doctrin No parcel of scripture affirms the whole scripture to be scripture What should authorise that scripture that should give autheÌ„tickness to all the rest By his opinion Gods providâ—ce is weakned Whether the holie fathers had this spirit or not makes against him That the auncient fathers had this spirit Mr H. A. places of scripture retorted on himself His spirit not Apostolical His answ pretended General groundes reselling the privat spirits proofe A threefold difference between the old and new testament The Catholicke opinion defended from such a idle proofe A general doctrine first to be presupposed The motives of our religioÌ„ of evident credibility The author of our religion the first motive This argument S. Chrysost orat 2 et 3. contra Iâ—â— a os et D. Augustin lib. decaâ—â—chisandis rudibus The second motive The third motive antiquitie Our Antiquitie in cluded in the name Catholick Beza in praefatione novi testa printed 1565. calls the name catholick a vaine word Humfrei in vita Iuelli a vaine terme pag 113. Sutlcif in his chalenge pag 1. fruictless name the like did Gaudentius as appeareth out of S. Aug. lib. 2 contra Gaud. c. 25. Muscul in
to prove as you would hence inferr But you so mangle in propounding the reasons that I do onely point out that they might seeme not to prove that which they intend For you leave out the force of the argument as the circumstances of the promise vnto S. Peter by our Saviour and the prerogatives and priviledge given vnto S. Peter that he is named first amongst the Apostles That he alone walked with our Saviour on the water Of the sundry promises of our Saviour made unto him that hell gates should not prevayle against him that he being confirmed should confirme his brethren that our Saviour washed S. Peters feet first that S. Peter onely of all the rest should receive a reveled promise of his particular Martyrdom of the cross That he after infusion of the holy ghost first promi◠〈…〉 the Gospell That the first miracle in confirmation of our faith is made by S. Peter That he as a supreame judge did condemne the hypocrisie of Ananias and Saphiras that he first discovered Symon Magus and condemned him All which and other circumstances concurring onely in S. Peter showes manifestly that S. Peter had preeminence above all the other Apostles that he is the rock and head of the Church that Cephas so particularly pointed out by the holy Ghost calling him first by the name given him at his nativitie Simon by the name of his father Bar Ionae and by his new imposed name Cephas that no cavil might be took at a legacie so strongly and particularly confirmed unto S. Peter Now all that you bring or can alleage against this belike is that the name Cephas was interpreted Petros which in Greek eyther signifies a rock or a stone I answer it avayleth nothing since Petros signifyes eyther a rock or a stone now if you ask why he is called Petros and not Petra I answer in that the masculine gender best fitted the name of a man And that S. Peter is the rock plainely appeareth out of the very text For it is sayd in the Caldei tongue super hoc Cepha and in the vulgar super hanc Petram where our Saviour signifies the rock of which he had spoken of before the which according to your graÌ„maticall construction you seeme not much to deny since you confess that Cephas signifies indifferently a rocke or a stone now your private spirits interpretatioÌ„ would onely limit it vnto a stone though against S. Hier most slitâ—full in languages and tongues in c. 2. epist. ad Gal. where he sayes it signifies a rocke Optatus lib. 2. contra Parmen sayes that in Greek it signifies a head As Christ is called the head Isa. 8 28. Daniel 2. Psal. 117. Math. 21. Rom. 9 1. Cor. 10. Ephes. 2 â— so after a kind of a measured proportion S. Peter by the delegatioÌ„ of our Saviour is his Vicegerent in earth a visible head of a visible Church But to that which you object that S. Peter answered as the mouth of the Apostles and therfore had not these promises made unto him alone makes much against you for to be the spokesman of all the rest the Masterspring of all their judgments seemes to graunt him superioritie and preeminence And though S. Peter was the mouth of the rest I graunt all but not onely the mouth but also the head And if S. Peter could not have the prerogative of place given unto him in that he represented the Church No more could the sonnes of Abraham be two sonnes in that they represented two nations And whereas you object that all the other Apostles were foundations Aâ—oc 21. 14. I graunt they were but not the principall Neyther both the headship of S. Peter derogate from Christ Jesus our head since S. Peter is but subordinated to Christ Jesus and onely of his free institution and if that place 1. Cor. 3. be understood absolutely Other foundation can no man lay then that which is layd which is Jesus Christ then is that of S. Pa 2. Ephes. false where he bidds us build upoÌ„ the foundatioÌ„ of the Apostles so that you see a less principall foundation or roch may wel agree with the absolute most perfect rock and foundation Christ Jesus and that the Apostles may be a foundation though S. Peter be chiefe And that no man might reply that this doctrine of the Popes supremacie is but a late doctrine see Carthw lib. 2 pag. 507. 50. lib. 2 pag. 97. Fullie against Saunders rocke pag. 248. 271. vpon the â—hemisâ— restament where he affirming that the fathers of the councell of Nice began the foundation of the Popes supremacie which was one of the first 4. generall counsells so many yeares agoe And that this poinet of the Popes supremacie doth not lack force of reason to confirme it I will onely alleage one generall reason is prove it The ecclesiasticall Hierarchie is no worse governed then any temporall regiment and government And therefore Math. 25. It to compared unto a kingdome that is governed by one King and Heb. 3. to a familie well governed Caut. 6. to a Campe well ordered But in all wel ordered common wealthes there is ever required some visible judge besides the written law since there must be a supreme judge to know and take notice of the coÌ„troversies when they arise and to ponder well and examine the reasons of both 2. there must be one to erplicate the sense of the law to pronounce sentence in the behalf of one partie when it shal be necessary And lastly there must be one to compell those that refuse to due observation thereof Now since the church of God is as wel ordered as any other goverment and that there ariseth the like difficults in her lawes explication as can happen in any temporall and politicall government It is against the providence of God and love to his spouse the church to denie her those helpes which necessarily must be graunted to all well governed common wealthes Therefore as the sentence of a supreme judge in explicating the sence of the low is to be followed so by a greater reason S. Peters successor guided by the holy Ghost in all difficults of momeÌ„t is to be sought vnto for counsel is to be heard with obedience when he counselleth is to be obeyed wheÌ„ he proceeds with his powrfull jurisdiction Now when you are come to my supplie of later Doctors branding the most ancient and venerable Fathers of the Church with noveltie and onely you please your self with this answer that you account them all as insufficient I wonder how any man can say or think this but I wonder more how you can averr that you could cite in this point Father for Father Doctor for Doctor with vs although you cite S. August 11. de verbo Dei sec. 12. where he sayes that Christ was the roche and not S. Peter I answer first he doth not manifestly contrary vs. For though 1. lib. retract c. 23. he doth approve rather of that opinion
having fayled in his fidelitie is in special excited unto duty diligence al the other should be excluded Doe you not see hovv after this Paul shevveth Eph. 4. not Peter onely but Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers to be given of Christ for the building up of his church Your conclusion to be inferred hereupon if you conclude the question wil be much more unreasonable The point you undertook to prove vvas that not Gods vvord in the Bible but the catholik churches yea the Popes definitive sentence as he is head of the church is an indeficient rule in matters of faith To confirm this haeresie you produce here Christs charge to Peter Freed my sheep Behold Novv the strength of your argument If Peter vvas to feed Christs sheep then not Gods vvord in the scriptures but Peters definitive sentence and consequently the Popes is an indeficient rule of faith But Peter vvas to feed Christs sheep Iohn 21. Frgo c. The unreasonablenes of vvhich consequence if the bare rehearsal of it doo not convince may be shewed by the like thus If the Bishops of Ephesus vvere to feed the church of God then not Gods vvord in the scripture but their definitive sentences vvere indeficient rules in matters of faith But the Bishops of Ephesus vvere to feed the church of God Act. 20. 28. Ergo. If the Elders of the churches of Galatia Cappadocia Asia and Bithynia were to feed the flocks of God then not Gods word in the Bible but their definitive sentences were indeficient rules in matters of faith But the Elders of those churches were to feed the flock of God 1 Pet. 5 â— 2. Ergo. Behold what deep waters you have digged out from the Rock of Rome their spring I trow comes from the bottomlesse pitt If you say those Elders were under Peter as a head therfore they were to feed with his definitive sentence not their own First I deny that so they were under him and you shal never prove it whiles Rome gates doo stand though I grant their office was inferiour to the Apostles Secondly if you could prove it yet would it make against you for if because Peter was their head therfore they must feed with his doctrine onely then because Christ was Peters head Peter was to feed with Christs doctrine onely But Christ was Peters head acknowledged by Peter himself to be Arch pastor so taught by Christ himself Iohn 10. Therfore Christ definitive sentence onely not Peters much lesse the Popes is the indeficient rule of our faith And thus my cause is confirmed and yours overturned by your own weapon Yet you procede and say besides Christ speaks to S. Peter that he should feed his general flock though he may speak unto the other Apostles that they should feed their particular charges I would we might once have an end of words of wind You say al things but prove nothing unlesse your definitive sentence also must be taken for a law But then I am sure it is against Christs law for as he neyther used the word general to Peter nor the word particular to the other Apostles so wheÌ„ he sent them with their charge al indifferently it was unto al nations yea into al the world to preach the gospel to every creature and as the Father sent him so sent he them And where now I pray you were their particular charges But let it be as you say let the Apostles and al Christian Bishops their successors have these precincts in al nations in al the world and what place is over and beside let your Peter the Pope have there to menage his supremacie But here you bring your S. Leo to speak for S. Peter and I know he was his freind for I shewed before how he placed Peter in the fellowship of the indivisible unitie so making him a God I know also have shewed that in the same 3. anniversarie sermon which you cite he speaketh more for S. Peter then you bring here how be it though the Lion roreth he hath got no prey For the headship hath been proved to be Christs not Peters the Apostleship to be Peters with the other Apoltles And though you again and again doe barely affirm S. Peter was head of al the rest of the Apostles yet I must tel you again again that I hold not your definitive sentence nor the Popes neyther to be a right rule of faith but if you can bring the word of God for you that thrâ—ugh his grace I wil gladly receive In the end of this your velitation you leav me to impuâ—ne â— B. â—armines doctrine as it heth c. But your captayn comes not into this feild he lyes intrenched within the walls of Rome and triumphes in the Vatican It is you that have bid me battel and as you entred not these lists without an alarme so you wil not depart I trow without an io triumphe Yet to say the truth in answering you I have answered your Cardinal for your reasons be his you have taken them out of his skoncâ— Onely you have culled them out here and there in other order have taken the most pregnant arguments that he hath Which being by him and by you propounded by me now answered you are to look whither the propugning of them shallye upon him or on you against this my impugnation Or if you wil let them dye you may sound the retrait The 3. and last thing which you promised to prove was that this rule the indeficient rule of faith is onely found in the Roman Catholik church sentence and not in privat mens illuminations or motions of a priâ—â—t and unseen spirit Both parts of this your divided proposition I disallow and mainteyn a third viz that this rule is to be found in the writings Prophetical and Apostolical because as your Cardinal hath wel sayd nothing is more known nothing more certeyn then the holy scriptures which are conteyned in them and this is a most certayn and a most safe rule of beleeving Before vvhen you came to shew your proof it was that your Roman church is the true and onely catholik church of God Which though I doo deney yet if I did grant it it would not prove your assertion For it is the voice of the bridegroom not of the bride which is the ground of mens faith the catholik church is to receiv lawes and rules from her head Christ not to prescribe lawes or rules to her members There is one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy But because your church must first be proved true catholik before her sentence can be approved therefore I was content to look into this first branch requiring proof that your Roman church is the true then the onely catholik for I deney both What proofs you brought before how I answered them I leav to indifferent consideration and wil now again take
the signes which Iesus did which signes are written that we may beleeve And the 1. of Timothie â— 16. 17 Where all scripture is inspired of God etc. is said to be profitable for doctrine for reprehension for correction for instruction c. These places prove nothing for your purpose The first proves not that all things or sayings of our Saviour that he did or said are written though those signes were for all the signes the whole world could not contayn see a little after S. John 21. v. 25. 31. And the second place proves no more but that the scripture is good for these ends but it proves not that scripture is sufficient without tradition etc. and ecclesiastical lawes to all these ends And one might deduce out of these wordes to better reason then you each parcel of scripture in the old and new testament were sufficient for al this without any other So that you see I doe not fight with the holie ghost but with the perverter of the holy ghost 32. 3. You desire me to deale distinctly and plainly with your words I answer I hope I doe Then you beginne to answere distinctly to my wordes vidz the written word is not proved by another written word You answer first that the scriptures of God doe approve and confirme one another and his spirit that is in them and in all people doth seale that they are true For proof wherof you cite the first of S. John 5 9. The witness of God is greater and John 8 13. 14 I answer that Christ needed no testimonie for himself John 5 33. But I receive no testimonie of man meaning that he is greater then man that his divinitie doth not depend of mans witness yet for the benefit of others S. John is sayd to give testimonie of him 1. John through the whole chapter almost Acts 1 8. Christ say unto his Apostles that they shall be witness unto him in Jerusalem and in all Jewrie and in Samaria also Martyrs are sayd to be witnesses But now we doe not say that scriptures in themselves needs any witness for in actu 1. and in regard of themselves they are scripture by themselves proceeding from God but as they be in act 1 secundo and to be beleeved of others so they need testimonie of others 33. After he sees this dâ—fective he flies unto the privat spirit though he sayes it is in all people to unseale the authoritie of his word For if he understand by that spirit in all people that is of all ages times persons then must he accept of those bookes of holie scripture and of that sense and explication that by consent of holie Councills Fathers Doctors and expositors haith bene received 34. If he vnderstand this spirit in all people virtuallie and actuallie if they doe applie themselves to the right vnderstanding thereof This spirit by just reason they can not vnderstand since then wee must rather beleive St. Hierome that spent all his tyme and labor retyring himself to the desert for the vnderstaÌ„ding of the scriptures 35. What must Mr. H. A. understand else then that this spirit is in all the illuminated brethren of the church of Amsterdamâ— and yet this can not bee well understood since I heare Mr. H. A. stiffly maintains by the word of God with his coÌ„panie against Mr. Johnson there and his that this present church of England is not a scismaticall but an haeretical church What is then one of these cleare Eagle sight teachers blinded so in spirit that he can not discerne by the word of God what makes a church or a man haereticall 36. But now to prove that the comparing of one place with another which is your other refuge is not sufficient to distinguish what is true scripture or the true sence therof For if it bee so to bee vnderstood that after the collation of one place to another that by the nature of the scripture compared so the true sence shall bee vnderstood I inferr no but rather by this comparison the difficultie is often increased by a seeming contradiction If it bee vnderstood that by comparing of one that by a little and a little If it bee vnderstood that vy comparing one place with another by a little discourse the true sence and the scripture will be discerned I saie mens discourses are verie erroneous without the especiall assistance of gods holie grace which the church of God hath promised in her defining yea the verie selfe same man in divers times out of the self same confereÌ„ces of places of scripture hath inferred divers conclusions If you say the spirit to distinguish this is to be had by prayer I demand where these infallible promises are to be had for these infallible illuminations and what more certaine whether wee praie as wee ought And since Novatus Donatus Sabellius Arrius Cunomius Macedo Jovinianus Pelag Caelest Nestorius have had for their heresies diverse texts and coÌ„ferences with others to grownde heresies how should one vnfallibly to their judgments overthrow them in this For if you obiect to the Arian I and my Father am one he will object out of the selfe same St. John My father is greater then I If you saiâ— this by â—â—llation of scripture is to be vnderstood in regard of his humanâ—â—â—â— and not of his divinitâ—e He will 〈◊〉 likewise that vnitie signified in the other place is to bee vnderstood by references of other places of scripture in regard of consent and vniâ—y of wilâ— and not of nature 37. 2 And that the seale of your spirit can not distinguish this truth 〈◊〉 yea not so much as probablie I move For frist I aske what this seale of the spirit is Doth iâ— coâ—â—â—st onely of Gods perticular illumination that yee should have this touchstone to discerne scripture If so you contradict your selfe Mr. H A for so you grant that a man hath a divine faith and the spirit of discerning all before he readâ—s the scriptures for this spirit must distinguish them and so you have built without your grounde and guided your faith without your ruler the written word of God 38. If you answer this spirit consists in the evidence of the thing reaveled as you seeme to graâ—nt When you bidd me aske your proof that ther is a light in the same seeming so with Calvin to graunt that the scriptures are distinguished by themselves as light from darkness sweetness from sowrness this is most false for then everie one that had but natural perfection of the organ and free proposing of the object should distinguish this light and sweetness 39. If yee answer this spirit consists in the authoritie of God how will you prove this in particular to bee revealed of God and not the other part of scripture If you replie you can prove it by the Majestie of the writing How will you answer and show to everie particular mans cie
1. S. Paul was caled to his office not by S. Peter but by Iesus Christ Gal. 1. 1. 2. S. Paul received the doctrine vvhich he preached not from S. Peter but by revelation froÌ„ Iesus Christ Gal. 1. 12. 3. S. Paul laboured in preaching the gospell more then S. Peter did 1. Cor. 15. 10. 4. S. Paul went and preached vvithout so much as conferring vvith S. Peter or the rest Gal. 1. 16. 17. 5. The gospel over the vncircumcision that is the Gentils among vvhom Rome vvas cheif was committed to S. Paul Gal. 2. 7. 6. S. Paul had upon him the care of all churches 2 Cor. 11. 28. 7. S. Paul hath vvritten and opened clearly the great mysteries of Christ in his Epistles more then S. Peter or any Apostle 8. S. Pauls vvritings are by S. Peter himself reckned among the holy scriptures 2 Pet. 3. 15. 16. 9. S. Paul rather then any other Apostle vvas caled of God to preach at Rome Act. 23. 11. 10. In his voyage to Rome he vvas marvelously saved from shipwrack and very memorable accidents fel out besides in that journey Act. 27. and 28. 11. S. Paul preached the gospel and suffered persecution in Rome and stood for the truth vvhen no man there assisted him Act. 28. 30. 31. 2 Tim. 4. 16. 12. S. Paul preached at Antioch where the name Christians vvas first given Act. 11. 26. 13. S. Paul vvithstood S. Peter to his face and blamed him vvhen he did amyss Gal 2. 11. c. 14. S. Paul first casteth out the Divil of divination Act. 16. 16. 15. He striketh Elymas the forcerer vvith blindnes Act. 13. 8. 11. 16. S. Paul in visions vvas taken up into the third heaven into paradise 2. Cor. 12. 2. 4. 17. S. Paul in nothing vvas inferior to the very cheif Apostles 2 Cor. 12. 11. 18. He vvas of that tribe vvhose precious stone is the first foundation of the heavenly Ierusalem Rom. 11. 1. Rev. 21. 19. Exod. 2â— 10. 20. 21. Therefore for all those reasons S. Paul vvas head of the Catholick Roman Church Here I appele unto any unpartial reader vvhither my proofs for S. Paul be not stronger then yours for S. Peter and vvhither the Pope vvas not overseen to choose S. Peter for his patron vvhom he cannot prove by any one title of Gods vvord that ever he set foot in Rome gates to leave S. Paul vvho vvas caled of God to preach there and did so a long time as the scriptures doo confirm Yet for all this you vvil not graunt that S. Paul vvas head of the church therefore say I neyther S. Peter and as for your Pope he hath no more â—ight to shew for the same then Mahomet We have seen your proofs from scripture you add unto them Doctors And here as before you bring in your forgeries of Clemens and Dioâ—ysius c vvith other vvrested testimonies of the Fathers Who al of them if they sayd as much as you vvould have them had no authority to make an head for the church Secondly vvhatsoever they sayd for Peter it proveth nothing for your Pope He must therefore shew better evidence for his usurped prelacy or els he must stil be reputed the adversary that exalteth himself 2 Thes. 2. 4. You proceed and say that S. Peters authority must be derived to his successors lawfully elected and governing at Rome This is the mayn point vvhich I vvould fayn see proved You could prove it by expresse authority of all the fathers cited but let reason you say suffice me Behold here and let all that have eyes behold the desperatenes of your cause vvho for the mayn ground of your religion church vvhereof you so boast cannot allege any one word or title of holy scripture but leave those true and ancient infallible records and betake you to the latter forged erroneous humane testimonies traditions of men I deny that Peter left any such successor in his office as you dream of and for the Pope to chaleng it is to folow the violencie of his private spirit as you sayd of Pope Stephen Now let us hear your reasoÌ„ Christ gave the power of preaching c. you say for the good of others to the worlds end This I graunt So Christ nstituting S. Peter the head you say would have that prehemineÌ„ce derived to his lawful successors All this I deny 1. He made not Peter head much less his successors â— He appointed no such successors after Peter in his office 3. If Peter vvere to have successors the Bishop of Rome hath no more to say for it by vvarrant from Christ then all other Bishops in the vvorld vvho for preaching ministring sacraments and governing their flocks have and ever had equal power with the Bishop of Rome vvhen he was at the best Thus after your long and tedious dispute you coÌ„clude vvith a fayr begging of the question not being able to produce one line of the bible which speaketh for your Pope nor any sufficient ground of reason How soundly now you have proved your sixth part viz. That the Popes definitive sentence at least with a general council â—t is a sufficient groundwork of fayth let any indifferent reasonable man give sentence Here I did not dare you as you say to bring in the arrowes of the fathers c in an other place it vvas that I gave you leave to use their reasons if you pleased but not to press me vvith their bare names as your manner is to doo And in all your long discourse let the reader mind vvhat any one scripture or reason you have had by the help of Doctor Father Council or Pope to prove your assertion that the Popes definitive sentence is to be a ground of our faith You object and that often that unless I wil eat my word you must preferr the uniform consent of the Fathers before me I answer to your often repetitions this First I spake of moe and others then you account holy Fathers yea I included such as I doubt not but you vvould burne for hereticks Secondly I spake and agayn speak it unfeighnedly as is in my hart being privy to my own manifold ignorances and infirmities and esteming of others better then of my self Thirdly therefore I say beleeve not me but beleeve the word of God which I shew vnto you If I speak of my selfe tread it vnder your foot but if I speak the words of God in despising theÌ„ you despise the Lord sinning against your sowl And if you depend on the sentences of Fathers Councils Popes not confirmed by the scriptures you make idols of them and heap up wrath upon your head Leave therefore your disdayning of me and leave your extolling of other men for all flesh is grass and all the glory of man is as the flower of grass which withereth away but the word of the Lord endureth for ever and that is the word which the Apostles preached to the churches 1.