to set downe the confirmations or shew the groūds of our tenet and for excuse pretends that it was against the lawes of the disputation wherein it was agreed as he relates that Master Featlie at that time should onlie oppose and D. Smith onlie a He should haue added that M. Featlie should answer another daie for this was likwise agreed vppon but he could not be brought to do it answer Whereas it was tould him thē that it hath been and still is the custome in Oxford for the Defendant to do that which my Lord would haue done and the Vniuersitie hath conceaued it to appertaine as indeed it doth to the Defendants part which M. Featlie cauilling at in the beginning shewed himselfe not willing to enter in to the combat with my Lord of Chalcedon if he could haue put it of and therefore being conscious of the weakenes of his cause thought the verie sight of our tenet as it appeares to Schollers would ouerthrowe his vtterlie and that euerie word by waie of preface was an argument to conuince it The same feare and in the experience of the first conflict much augmented he betraied againe afterwards when he was called vpon to be defendant according to promise as appeares by the end of the relation where the Reader will see with what tergiuersation he did shift it of And since that time also in England it self twice to my knowledge I can put the particulars downe when time serues he hath refused to meete my Lord in dispute Being himselfe in his Relation to tell the state of the Question he puts downe a discourse to make the simple Reader giddie to the end he see not on which side the truth stands and which of the Disputants haue the vpper hand whereas the state of the Controuersie is in it selfe cleere plaine The Catholikes hold and beleeue that in the holy Eucharist there is the bodie and blood of our blessed Sauiour trulie reallie and substantiallie Conc. Trid. Sess 13. can 1. condemning such as hold it to be there onlie as in a signe or in a figure or in vertue Ibidem a Ioan. 6. v. 55.56 1. Cor. 11. v. 24.25 Cōc Trid. sess 7. can 6. sess 1◠cap. 1. S. Tho. 3. p. q. 83 a 1. ad 2. a 2 ad 2 Decret de Consec Dist 2. c. 48. 72. We doe not denie that it is there virtute in vertue efficacie it hath vertue power there to worke in the Soule neither doe we denie that it is there as in a figure for the Eucharist is an image of the passion or that it is there as in a signe the exteriour species are a signe of that which is within It is a Sacrament also a Sacrament is a signe But wee denie a tatummodo vt in signe vel in figura aut virtute ex Can. 1. that the bodie blood are ther onlie so beleeuing that they are there according to the veritie and substance of bodie and blood The Sacramentarians for whom D. Featlie disputed against our tenet hold the contrarie vzt that the bodie blood of our Sauiour be not in the Eucharist truelie according to the veritie and substance of the thing signified by those names Cited by my Lord of Chalcedon in the Conference of Cath. Protest doct c. 10. a. 1. The Sonne of God is by the mysticall benediction vnited to vs corporally as man but as God spiritually with the grace of his spirit renewing our spirit to new life and participatiō of the diuine nature S. Cyrill Alexād li. 11. in Io. c 27. See Cardinall Perō again S. Ples Mornay Paris 1622. but that the Eucharist is a signe figure of it onlie Iewell it is not indeed Christs bodie Peter Martyr it is not properlie the bodie of Christ Musculus it is not the verie bodie Cartwright it is onlie a signe Perkins it is onlie a signe and seale of the bodie Zuinglius it is onlie a figure Beza it was meere bread and wine which our Sauiour gaue with his hands Caluin the bodie is exhibited according to the vertue not according to the substance And Featlie in his Relation pag. 3. Christ is not therein according to the substance of his naturall bodie and pag. 4. the words of institution are to be construed figuratiuelie and not properly according to the rigour of the letter And a little before not in the proper sence Against this Heresie of the Sacramentarians we oppose plaine Scripture and the direct affirmation of Iesus Christ whith the vnanimous interpretation of Antiquitie and general consent of the Church in whom the holie Ghost determines controuersies appertaining to diuine faith and hath determined this which was beleeued in all ages and generallie professed in all Christian Countreies when Luther who faine would but in conscience as a Epist ad Argentin he said could not contradict it did beginne to deuide himselfe from the Church D. Featlie opponent is to proue the Catholike tenet to be false and that in the Eucharist there is not flesh and blood according to the substance of the thing but a signe or figure of it onlie THE FIRST ARGVMENT DAn Featly The words of Christ This is my bodie are vnderstoode of a figure therefore not of the bodie it self Doctour Smith I distinguish your antecedent 1. Of a meere figure such as were the legall figures which the Apostle calles egena elementa Gal. 4. poore elements or such as statuaes are in regard of the thinges they doe represent I denie your Antecedent 2. Of a figure which hath the verity ioyned together with it in which kind the Sonne according to the Apostle to the Hebrewes Heb. 1. is the figure of his Fathers substance and a Kinge shewing in triumph how he did behaue himselfe in the warre is in this later action a figure of himselfe as in the former and breade exposed in the shop is a figure of it selfe as to be sold So I graunt your antecedent and denie your consequence D. Featly Tertulian lib. 4. contr Marc. c. 40. saith Acceptum panem distributum discipulis corpus suum illum fecit hoc est Corpus meum dicendo id est figura corporis mei The breade taken and distributed vnto his disciples he made it his bodie saying this is my bodie that is the figure of my bodie Therefore according to Tertullian those wordes are vnderstoode of a meere figure D. Smith You passe quickly from Scripture to the Fathers yet you are woont to say Collat. li. 2. ca. 22. that the Fathers though conspiring all together be not authenticall and infallible expositors of the Scripture wherefore your argument relying vpon the Fathers exposition is weakely grounded according to the tenet of your owne men To the place obiected I Answer Lactan. Instit diuin li. 5. c. 1. Hieron li. de Instit mon. ad Paul that Tertullian as Lactantius and S. Hierome haue well obserued
space of an hower before D. Smith should obiect any thing D. Smith answered that he thought this to be an vniust condition as well because M. Featlie had not permitted him when he was to defend so much as to shew the grounds of his tenet and therefore why would himselfe demaund now to dispute when his turne of defending was as also because no such condition was agreed vpon in the treatie but onlie that M. Featlie should haue one daie allowed him to oppose and D. Smith should haue another He demanded therefore now a daie wherein he onlie might oppose according as it had bene graunted to M. Featlie before But M. Featlie refusing to yeeld thereunto M. Kneuet prouided himselfe for his iourney determining on Tuesday to leaue Paris VVhen M. Featly heard of this hoping as it seemes that D. Smith would not challeng him to dispute any more after M. Kneuets departure late at night about nine a clock he sent M. Kneuet to him and said he would be ready to meete him the next weeke vpon condition a day might be allowed him to prosecute the rest of his arguments D. Smith told him that could not be himselfe being the next friday to depart out of Paris but gaue him leaue to choose for the time of conference Tuesday VVednesday or Thursday for longer he could not differ it adding that if M. Featlie would make choise of none of those dayes he could neither performe his promise nor saue his honour He said also that if M. Featly would put downe vnder his hand that he would not keepe the first conditions of the conference but adde new conditions he would sollicite him no more but this he would interprete as a declining of the conflict VVherefore the day following M. Featly wrote vnto M. Kneuet saying he heard that D. Smith exacted of him his promise to meete againe that he was ready to performe it vpon Tuesday on condition that he might haue leaue first to propose all the rest of his arguments as he said D. Smith promised VVhich thing verily was most false for the promise was not made of all arguments but of a day wherein he should propose which what arguments he listed which wâ—s accordingly permitted him to doe That he now declines the conflict it is euident both by the new conditions which he doth propose by his owne words to one of his freinds whome he told that Catholikes brought so many (a) Traitté du S. SacremeÌ„t de l' Eucharistie par l'illust Cardinal du Perron Paris 1622. Testimonies of Fathers to proue the reall presence that there was need of many weekes to read them ouer and by the confession also of another of his companie who said plainly that M. Featly did exceedingly feare to vndertake the part of defendant and sought a fit occasion to saue his honour THE NOTES OF S. E. THus ends the Relation which had neuer lookt so farre abroad had not the Minister importunely called it out It was not adorned for the print but plainely set downe as you see howbeit being euocated to publik iudgment it feares not to appeare euen there where the Doctour thinks all are on his side It is no great matter by the presse to make a show to triumph in papers and speake freely there where none may contradict but could the Reader haue beene a Spectatour and seene this action in the life he would haue acknowledged what M. Kneuet hereupon did confesse that M. Featly was to yong for Doctour Smith He is many waies to weake to vndertake so greate a wit so ready in answer so strong in argument so conuersant in Scripture Fathers Deuines Much lesse whateuer outrecuidance makes him think of his ability is he able to ouermatch an vnderstanding so full of light so ample so vigorous excellently furnished with all variety of learning and in a cause so cleere so common the cause of the whole Catholike world wherin the IVDGE of Controuersies if the Scripture be Iudge giues the sentence openly in plaine termes on our side and the Holy Ghost in the CHVRCH doth confirme it By the Ministers cariage in the busines and by his owne Relation since you may conceaue what is in him Ex vngue you may gather what a thing the (a) Iâ— taâ—res Libyâ—â— ruunt leones Ne sint papalionibus molesti Featlie of himselfe in his Sacrilegâ— p. 28â— Lion is I haue heard from one that was present at the Conference that he brought his arguments with him written in a paper and vrged them soo poorely that M. Pory did prompt him diuers times He reports indeed that one of the standers by said it was vera digladiatio and not Sorbonica velificatio velitatio I thinke he would say I inquired of the partie from whose mouth the speach should haue come who remembers no such thing but tells me the minister did runne ouer his arguments so sleightly that it deserued on his part rather to be called leuissima velitatio then vera digâ—adiatio And as for the Sorbone Disputants ouer whom he would insult in the comparison the Hugonots in France do know there neuer wanted euen of those Bachelours which he doth glance at such as were able ready to meete his Master Moulins when soeuer he durst enter combat M. Kneuet vpon the Ministers poore cariage in the dispute and tergiuersation afterwards when he shoulde haue answered disliked the Protestant Cause which he saw their Champion could not make good with argument in the presence of a Schollar nor durst face to face appeare to defend it and soone after was reconciled vnto the Church and at Venice died a Catholike So my Lord though he were not permitted once to put an argument nor so much as to shew the grounds of our tenet vsing the buckler onely neuer suffered for to draw the sword got the feild and bore away the prize 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heer 's the leap Heere the leape HAEC Relatio disputationis habitae inter Reuerendissimum Dominum Richardum Episcopum Chalcedonensem Danielâ—m Featlaeum Ministrum Protestanticum de Reali Praesentia Sacro-sancti Corporis Domini N. I. C. in Eucharistia vna cum notis S. E. adiunctis nihil habet Catholicae fidei aut bonis moribus contrarium prout mihi constitit ex fideli relatione cuiusdam S. T. Doctoris qui opus totum perlegit Actum Duaci 9. Iunii 1632. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. T. Doctor Regius Ordinariusque ac primarius Professor Collegiatae Ecclesiae S. Petri Praepositus Canonicus Academiae Duacensis Cancellarius librorum Censor A RELECTION OF THE PRECEDENT CONFERENCE Wherein it is defended against the exceptions OF MIRTH VVAFERER MASTER OF ART OF ALBAN HALL IN OXFORD AND HIS APOLOGIE FOR DANIEL FEATLIE D.D. Censured by L. I. Non disputare amant Haeretici sed quoquo modo superare August con Faustum lib. 13. c. 12. TO THE READERS OF THE TITLE THese Gentle Readers are to thank you for your
vine I will not drinke from hence forth of this fruite of the vine and he is senceles that cannot see this reference it is so plaine If you desire to knowe more of this cup read S. Luke where the thing is more at large You are wont to saie Scripture must expound Scripture heere it doth so why doe not you beleeue what it tells you D. Featlie All the Fathers generallie vnderstand those words I will not drinke c. of the Sacrament Answer You were told that some doe and had answer giuen you according to that opinion which answer you haue not impugned that some doe not as S. Ierom S. Beade S. Anselme Theophilact whose opinion is better grounded as hath bene shewed Wherefore you did amplifie when you said all generallie vnderstood it of the Sacramentall cup. And when you come to verifie your words by naming those all you finde onelie fiue in all with one particular Councell all which held the reall presence and were opposite vnto you in the cause Let vs looke on them seuerallie Clement Cyprian Chrysostome the Authour de dogmatibus Pope Innocent and the Councell of Wormes First the Bishops in the Councell of Wormes were knowne Papists in communion with the See of Rome and at that tyme when by your owne confession the whole world beleeued the reall presence and Sacrifice of the Masse which they also professe euen in the Canon whence you would dispute and throroughout they shew themselues Papists acknowledging Confirmation Monkes Penance or Sacramentall Confession c. together with the Popes authoritie in calling Councells and determining controuersies appertaining to Religion The treatise de Ecclesiasticis dogmatibus which you cite as S. Augustines is not his and you haue beene told alreadie what sainct Augustine said was in the Cup Ep. 162. euen the price of our Redemption He taught also that the holie victime whereby wee were redeemed l. 9. was dispenced from the Altar that Christ had his owne bodie in his owne hands Conf. c. 13. suprà pag. 45. and so caryed it after such a strange manner as no man euer before did or could beare himselfe that wee receaue the Mediatour Iesus Christ with our mouth Conc. 1. in Psal 33. l. 2. con◠Adu leg c. 9. and with our mouth drinke blood notwithstanding the seeming horrour Clement saies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c as our Sauiour in the Gospell I am the true vine Io. 15. if he a vine his blood and especiallie as in the chalice may be called (a) See S. Ierome cited p. 111. m. wine S. Chrysostome saith in the place obiected that our Sauiour doth chang the things proposed that he doth nourish vs with his owne bodie that we receaue him and touch him and haue him in vs that Angels tremble when they see the thing wherewith wee are fed and exhorteth vs to beleeue it is as our Sauiour tould vs his bodie and not to trust our sence He saies also that is in the cup which did issue out of the side of our Sauiour S. Cyprian did openlie professe vnbloody Sacrifice vnder the formes of bread and wine Epist. 63. Neither can all your glosses obscure those words before alleadged Panis iste quem Dominus discipulis porrigebat non effigie sed naturâ mutatus omnipotentia verbi factus est caro suppose I say the same of the wine genimen istud non effigie sed naturâ mutatum omnipotentia Verbi factum est sanguis That frute of the vine being changed not in shape but in nature is by the OMNIPOTENCE of the WORD made blood Innocentius tertius in the booke you cite expounds the Masse defends the reall presence and teacheth expreslie transubstantiation which he did also define in the greate and generall Laterane Councell D. Featlie What answer you to so many Fathers a Councell and your Pope Answer I might as you see turne the demaund back to aske of you what you say to so many Fathers and a Pope in a Generall Councell But to forbeare making thrusts because you think that is not faire plaie in a defendant as there aret two Controuersies so you shall haue for answer two things first that all are against you in the matter of the Reall presence against which you are disputing which matter is defined by the Church openlie deliuered in the Scripture generallie acknowledged in Antiquitie and those whose authoritie is obiected did all beleeue it as we doe wherefore themselues were to answer your scruple would doe it easilie in manner aboue (a) In my Lords answer pag. 165. specified Secondlie the other Controuersie is not determined by the Church neither did the Councell that you speake of a Nationall Councell only determine and define it nor Innocentius propose it as matter of beleefe but only as a priuate Doctour makes his vse of it nor the Fathers generallie consent in it nor the Scripture openlie deliuer it but rather the contrarie Wherefore admitting it to be probable you are to thanke those Authours for the curtesie for you cannot get so much by waie of argument And he that could should not be contradicted on our part for persisting in the beleefe of the reall presence wee might indifferentlie defend The Reader may perceaue by the Ministers words more then the Minister would haue him to beleeue touching the euent of the conference either that it was or that it was not the consecrated cup which is meant by those words in S. Mathew D. Featlie D. Smith triumphed as if he had gotten the daie saying are these your demonstrations are these sufficient causes why you should seperate your selues from our Church and from your brethren the Lutherans Answer Had he not reason when your oppositions were all answered and the Dispute at an end The reasons mouing to leaue THE COMMVNION OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD should be vnauoidablie conuincing but hetherto there haue appeared none such nor euer will doe from the mouth of any Protestant THE BREAKING VP of the conference and the Ministers terguiersation ANd heere the conference ended hauing lasted neere seuen howers from noone till it was almost night Some daies after D. Smith hoping according to M. Featlies promise he should also haue a daie to propose the arguments for the Catholike tenet told M. Kneuet that he would be readie to dispute the next Tuesdaie being the tenth of September desiring him to giue M. Featlie notice of it the Sundaie before but though he went thrise that daie and twise the next vnto the house wherein M. Featlie did abode he could not speake with him F. l. 1. d. 1. c. c. v. c. 9. 44. At length hauing gotten to speake with him he warned him to prouide himselfe against the daie appointed but the minister began to pretend that he was to write letters and that there remained yet a great part of their arguments whereunto in equitie it should be answered or at least they should be proposed for the
bread is my bodie Whether in the holie Eucharist there be reallie our Sauiours bodie according to the veritie and substaÌ„ce The Catholik Church takes his words as being dogmaticall properlie submitting her vnderstanding to the omnipotent veritie that spake them and affirmeth what he her God and Sauiour did affirme Master Featlie on the other side laboured to proue that the wordes were not to be construed and vnderstood properlie that the speach was meerelie figuratiue and that Christ is not there in the Eucharist according to the substance of his bodie or shrowded vnder the accidents of bread In which tenet you Master Waferer ioyne with him telling vs pag. 9. VVee these are your wordes denie such corporall presence of the body and blood as if the thing signified and represented were according to the naturall substance thereof contained vnder the shapes of the outward signes A figure you know was graunted the question was whether this figure had the veritie the bodie and blood of Christ in it or whether it were emptie of it Whether that which the Apostles receaued into their mouthes were a meere emptie figure of the bodie and blood of Christ or whether the thing within that Sacramentall signe or figure were as our Sauiours wordes in their proprietie import his bodie and his blood The Protestants that speak their minds plainelie preteÌ„d no more then a meere figure Their words are set downe in the Collation whither S. E. directed you See the Conference of the Catholiâ—k and Protestant Doctrine with the expresse wordâ— of Scripture extant in English pag. 266. seqq where they your Masters and the best learned on your side speake of the Eucharist your owne thus It is not the bodie of Christ not his very bodie not his bodie it self not his true bodie not his substantiall bodie not flesh not Christs true flesh but another thing and much different from Christs flesh not the thing it selfe of this mysterie not our spirituall foode It is nothing els but bread nothing but common bread nothing but a bare creature nothing but a bare signe or figure nothing but meere bread and wine Only a signe only a seale only a token only a testification only a symbol only a type of Christs bodie It only hath the name of Christs bodie it is only a simple ceremonie It is so the bodie of Christ as the Paschal lambe was Christ as the doue was the Holie Ghost as the water of baptisme was the blood of Christ It is the bodie of Christ only figuratiuelie by resemblance and no otherwise symbolicallie metonymicallie tropicallie significantlie no otherwise then a keie deliuered is a house the body It is present onlie by speculation meere imagination as our bodies are now present in heaueÌ„ Christ is no more coÌ„municated there in the supper then in the Gospell no more receaued in the Sacrament then in the word nothing more giueÌ„ in the supper then at preaching no more offersd by the Sacrament then by the word yea the Sacrament is inferiour to the word and the memorie of Christ bodie is more fullie refreshed by the word then by the Sacrament All this and more hath beene told you out of the mouthes of your greatest Deuines and pillars of Protestancie The words and places are citeâ— in the ConfereÌ„ce l. 1. c. 10. a. 1. Where there is a clowd of domesticall Protestant witnesses against your Oracle and you whose very names would shadow this leafe of paper Among them you shall find your Caluin Beza Peter Martyr and Swinglius who learned it of a Spirit the Deuil it was Luther saies with your English Iuel Perkins Whittaker Cartwright c. each as learned as your Featlie Hereunto you replye nothing but insteed of a Replye haue calumniated my Lord and contradicted your self withall Saying Doctor Smith would faine father a false opinion vpon vs and goes away currant with it that wee hold as he hath proued signatis tabulis pag. 159. and your owne confession aboue cited may be added thereunto that there is in the wordes This is my bodie a meere figure But now forsooth you most plainelie affirme they be the rest of your wordes that the Sacramentall elements are not meere emptie signes wil you strike your owne fellowes in your choller of the bodie and blood of Christ but a true and liuelie figure of them As if a picture can not be a true picture and a liuelie picture and yet a meere picture or a figure be a true figure and a liuelie figure and yet a meere figure The legall figures which were according to the Apostle but egena elementa were meere figures yet some of them as liuelie yea more liuelie then your bread and wine The blood of the Testament and the Manna in the desert did signifie our Sauiours flesh and blood in as perfect a manner if you consider all the analogie to the full and the Agnus Paschalis dicitur esse Christus eadeÌ„ prorsus ratione qua panis ille dicitur esse corpus Christi pro nobis tradituÌ„ Beza your admired patterne of Christianitie so you call him pag. 98. in 1. Corin. 5. Pascall lambe eaten at supper was a more liuelie figure flesh of flesh blood of blood killing of killing that laÌ„be without spot of our innocent Sauiour then bread and wyne there distributed if they were meere elementes with a reference to the thing represented the PassioÌ„ which was theÌ„ future respectiuelie to theÌ„ both vizt to the legall to the Sacramentall supper wherefore since you are forced by the authoritie of holie Scripture to graunt that the legall figure was not withstanding the the liuelines a meere figure it remaines that an other signe or figure though liuelie may be but a meere figure The liuelines of a picture is to represent ad viuum to the life and a picture the picture of the King may do so though it be nothing els but a meere picture which your owne fellowes acknowledg whilst they graunte as before hath beene told you that in the supper there is meere bread and wine a signe and seale onlie nothing els but bread and wyne which tenet you likewise hold in your mind as appeares in your whole pamphlet throughout but it is in is self so poore a thing so short of precedent figures (b) Caluin cited aboue pag. 156. yet the same Caluin saiâ—h cuÌ„ signa hic in mundo sint oculis cernaÌ„tur palpentur manibut Christus quatenus homo est non alibi quam in câ—â—lo quaerendus est Calu. in Confess de re Sacram art 21. so vnworthie of the chiefest place amongst Sacraments in the new Testament so contrarie to the proper sense of our Sauiours words and so vncapable of those high encomium's which the Fathers giue or attributes which they do predicatâ—on the blessed Sacrament that you are ashamed openlie to professe it still iugling with vs and in steed of answers which you pretend giuing vs words
brought were Clemens Cyprian Chrysostome The Author de dogmatibus vnder the name of S. Augustine the Councell of wormes and Innocent the third These were all and S.E. tooke notice of and answered to them all and without adding any more as he may know who will turne vnto the place which is pag. 114. That Christ said of the coÌ„secrated cup it was the fruite of the vine you find not in his Notes though he tels you the Argument might haue beene answered if our Sauiour had said so See p. 108. 117. Your replie videlicet He is called a vine who was none substantiallie so wine is also called blood which was not so substantiallie is a begging of the Question if you meane that your so doth import the same manner and ridiculous if you intend to haue the later part an illatioÌ„ from the former The thinge in the Chalice was the price of our RedemptioÌ„ it was shed for the remission of sinnes could this be wine substantiallie Vide S. Chrys Hom. 24. in Pri. Cor or in proprietie And if in your forme I said thus S. Iohn is called an eagle who was none none substaÌ„tiallie so also Waferers Fathers was called a maÌ„ who was not so substaÌ„tiallie would you approue of the discourse t' is iust as yours But now you come to your Postlegomena where you recon vp your Doctors great exploites Whole men belike he hath diuided at a blow Secuit Lucilius Vrbem Te Te Apol. What this booke speakes of Doctour Featlie who will regaâ—d since it contrarily appeares to the world and can yet be iustified to the doubtfull by witnesses now liuing that he often discouered yôur Fishers hookes and tooke him with his owne angle he hath euer beene Musket proofe he allwaise put Sweetes mouth of relish Egle-stones simples could not work with him How vnlikelie then is this report that Smith could ouerbeare him Censure Ad populum phaleras Wee knowe the man you speake of In the Vniuersitie there was an other opinion of him and that which hath publiklie appeared since euen in those pieces you commend him for doth confirme it Did he but see the Character of himself which a Scholler drew out of the first of those you name he would be sorrie that he euer put it out By one that was present I haue heard too what he said at home in his owne howse touching the Catalogue then demaunded A frinde of his Birckbeck in his Catalogue hath endeuoured since to draw a skinne ouer the soare but in vaine So many seuerall Religions as he names all those men which he puts downe could neuer be contained in one Communion The Wickleffists Hussites Waldenses Lollards the Deuines that wrot against them the Councels that condemned them for Hereticks were not of one minde all were they Lateran CoÌ„staÌ„ce Yet do you acknowledge those Hereticks your Predecessors and put the Deuines and CouÌ„cels into your Catalogue Your taske had been to haue attoned them making it first appeare they were of one Religion all and then after to haue proued by good Euidence that this one was the Protestant and no other To vnite those Heresies but now specified amongst themselues and with Protestants will be another ten yeeres work for this Collectour atque idem iungat vulpes after which he may spend twentie more to reconcile the whole multitude of all sorts which he puts in and then when Est non est be all one the wound may be drawne vp He names Fathers and Councelâ— too who knowes not that Hereticks laie claime vnto the first Disciples and Apostles that they challenâ— the Scripture to themselues anâ— would draw God such is their arrogancie to their side obtruding theiâ— errours for his word whereas they contradict him flatlie as hath appeared in the tryall and by men of hiâ— owne side more learned then himself hath beene confessed It hath beene confessed I say that in many great matters the Fathers the Auncients all the Fathers all from the Apostles time the Fathers with mutuall consent all Antiquitie the auncient Church the Church of the first fiue or six-hundred yeeres the Church in the very beginning generall Councells all Generall Councells are opposite to them This he may see proued out of their owne bookes in the Conference of Catholike and a. li. 2 c. 22. Protestant Doctrine and in the Protestants b. Tract 1. Sect. 3. Apologie there is instance made in diuers particular points Neither were it hard for any vnderstanding man that knowes well the true State of the Controuersies betwixt vs and Protestants to make this Euidentist confesse that no generall Councell no Father at all would euer haue subscribed to the booke of his ConfessioÌ„ the 39. Articles If you looke into him to see how he proues that any one of the Auncients held their tenets all as they are expressed in the 39. Articles you loose your labour he doth not though this were the thing demauÌ„ded as much as vndertake it Vnles this be perchaÌ„ce a demonstratioÌ„ of the thing suppose I take your †In the first he puts the Apostles Dixit facta suÌ„t second Age Iustine saies that as vpon c. Alimentum hoc eucharistizatus panis vinum appellatur apud nos Eucharistia quod nulli alij participare licitum est quà m veram esse nostram doctrinam credenti lauachro propter remissionem peccatorum regenerationem abluto ita vt Christus tradidit viu enti Non enim vt coÌ„munem panem neque communem potum ista sumimus sed quemadmodum per verbum Dei caro factus est Christus Seruator noster carnem sanguinem salutis nostrae causa habuit sic etiam per preces Verbi Dei ab ipso Eucharistiam factam cibum ex quo sanguis caro nostra per mutationem aluntur incarnati illius Iesu carnem sanguinem esse edocti sumus Nam Apostoli in commentariis à se scriptis quae Euangelia vocantur ita tradiderunt praecepisse sibi Iesum Eum enim pane accepto cùm gratias egisset dixisse Hoc facite in meam commemorationem Hoc est corpus meum Et poculo similiter accepto gratiis actis dixisse Hic est sanguis meus Iustin. Apol 2 ad Antonin Vide Bellar. li 2. de Euchar. c. 4. vbi dicit illa verba Ex quo sanguis caro nostra per mutationem aluntur esse periphrasim panis ex quo conficitur Eucharistia vt sit sensus Panis vel cibus ex quo carnes nostrae ali solent cum praece mystica consecratur fit corpus Christi Gods dixit the Word became man so vpoÌ„ our Sauiours dixit bread became flesh or water wine That the Sacrament whose materia transiens is bread such as men eate is the flesh and blood of Christ and That Christ commauÌ„ded this Birckbeck knowes not what Ergo he was a Protestant and would haue subscribed to the 39. Articles Pope
the men wee looke for Where is the Catalogue of Protestantish Churches in all former Ages You tell vs of Christians in Europe in Affricke in Asia and in America the new world This wee knew before The Quaere was of yours where were they To say that these some haue deposed their Errours doth not answer the demaund but shewes it is not answered For the thing lookt after is a Catalogue of such Churches as you will iustifie and which the Fathers would haue allowed as Orthodox of Hereticall Churches euerie one can easilie make a Catalogue there be many i. By S. Aug. S. Epiphan Pratel Gualter c Catalogues allreadie made whereas if you confesse that these Churches haue deposed their errour errours oecumenicallie condemned you confesse withall a thing otherwise k. By the Authors aboue cited it is manifest The Nestorians held against the Councell of Ephesus and refused it And the Iacobites Armenians Abassins and Aegyptians all spotted with Eutichianisme refused that of Chalcedon euident that once they did maintaine them and if so then by the iudgment of the l. Euticheans and Nestorians were condemned by the Catholike and Vniuersall Church whole Christian world the men were not Orthodox Howbeit had they become sound and Orthodox it followes not that they would haue subscribed to your Articles or were Protestant yea the contrarie would follow They haue beene indeed m. Iacobites Nestorians Abassins Russits Greeks and Armenians haue made ouertures of returning into Communion with the See of Rome The particulars are in Miraeus lib 1. c 18. returning to the bodie from which they separated themselues the Catholike and Vniuersall Church and were againe n. The Graecians Armenians and Indians were vnited to the Church in the Councell of Florence Acta Conc. Flor. in Decret Eug. Platina Chalcondas Aemilius Vnder the name of Indians are the Abassins and Aegyptians Prat. Gord. Vide Sand. Monarc an 1432. pag 556. vnited some of theÌ„ which doth likewise hinder their standing in your Catalogue But you cannot possiblie finde them in a state wherein write them yours much lesse can you truely say they professed your Religion that which is now currant in England many o. The demaund is of Protestants in all ages men whole Churches or one Church and you must not forge your Euidence hundred yeeres together How many and which do still persist in their ould Heresie or Schisme there is no neede to looke since the men were not Protestant The fewer the better no doubt for you know that p. Galat. 5. Schismatickes and q. Tit. 3. Hereretickes how r. Matth. 20. great so euer the multitudes of them be be not saued Å¿. S. Aug. Epist 152. hoc solo scelere Whosoeuer is deuided from the Catholicke Church how laudablie soeuer he seeme to liue for this onlie crime that he is separated from the vnitie of Christ he shall be excluded from life and the wrath of God shall remaine vppon him M. Waferer where are you mille â—ui Siculis errant in montibus you think I fell into this discourse for want of a particular answer to that you said in your Doctors commendation Repeate it if you please againe and I will discharge the debt Apologist What this booke speakes of Doctor Featlie who will regard since it contrarilie appeares to the world and and can yet be iustified to the doubtfull by witnesses now liuing that he often discouered your Fishers hookes and tooke him with his owne angle he hath euer beene Musket proof he allwaies put Sweetes mouth out of relish Eglestons simples could not work with him Censure Heere you serue in fantasticallie after your manner the Catalogue of Protestants no but of your Doctors Conferences And the first not in time but in the booke is that with the 2. Fathers of the Societie His Cause which was and but of late engendred ex putri materia comming to molest and infect the world out of the nastie sinke of damned Errours and pretending to great Antiquitie with good and honourable descent was called vpon to giue account thereof and of such as had knowne and entertained it formerlie in all ages thorough which it saies it came At the sight of which QuestioÌ„ after many shifts and much wriggling it became speachles and out of weaknes falling to the ground was giuing vp the foule ghost When lo the Doctour to restore and relieue it bestirs himself and puts out the Relation which you point at and after it Additions and Aremonstrance and A Discussion A defence An Answer A Replie Another Replie c. So many that the volume by the continuall agitation of his sting his stile I should saie grew to be as bigge as pestilent Magnum de modico malum scorpium terra suppurat tot venena quot ingenia tot pernicies quot species Nicander scribit pingit tamen vnus omnium violentiae gestus de cauda nocere quae cauda erit quodcunque de posthumo corporis propagatur verberat The name of this b. is in the forhead in red and black characters The Romish Fisher caught and held in his owne Net But laqueus contritus est The a. This is your booke Sâ—â—tes illa nodorum veâ—â—nata intrinietus venula subtilis arâ—uato impetu insurgeÌ„s hamatilo spiculum inâ—â—mmo tormenti ratione restrangeÌ„s booke Master Waferer though M. Fishers Question be not was b A Replie to D. white and D. Featlie anno 1625. answered I adde that it hath beene proued by the confession of the learnedest of of Protestants and such as haue laboured to finde out Protestant predepecessors that before Luther there were c. De authore Essentia Protestanticae Ecclesiae Religionis Auth. R.S. Parisiis anno 1619. none So hard a thing it was for your Doctour though he set a face on it and promised a buttery d. Featlie in the Conference pag 14. booke of names to shew the Catalogue And in the comparison of your doctrine to the Scripture it hath appeared that you e. The Conference of the Catholike and Protestant Doctrine with the expresse words of holie Scripture by R. S.D D. and extant now in English See al o the Anchor oâ— Christian faith by D. VVorthinghton contradict it directlie in many places in so much that you refuse to stand vnto the natiue and f. Suprà pag. 293 proper sence of Gods words So easie had it beene for M. Fisher had he beene willing to diuert from the Question proposed in writing to haue answered the Doctors g. I charg you as you will answer it before Chrisâ— answeâ— now VVhether you beleeue that Christ his Apostles tâ—ught our faith or yours Featlie Relatâ— pag. 29. coniuration The next of those you point at is the Conference with M. Musket whereof wee spake pag. 376. seqq looke there The third is his Conference in writing that it is I suppose you