his bloud and which he hath promised to drink with us new in his Fathers Kingdome Nor will the wine be alwayes new to those that are renewed as they ought to be indeed for your Parishes which you call old Bottles I am sure the wine or pure government is too new for them Nor will the Bottles be older as you say the longer the government is delayed if the power of the Word be there for renewing them But you say What sense is this What logicall connexion I answer that shall appear there is sense enough and connexion enough and Logike enough though I had rather have more Scripture and lesse Logike for all I aim at is what the Scripture aims at that the bottles should be fit for the wine the necks for the yoke and the subjects for the commands Master Ley's Resolution Page 23 24. To that of his That Jesus Christ could as easily have set up his government by miracle had there been such a primary c. necessity c. 1. The acts and times for divine Providence towards his Church are various God had his Church at first and no written Word for it till the Law was writ and Moses wrote c. And God added to the morall Lawes ceremoniall and judiciall divers of which were not executed till forty yeares after at their comming into Canaan so far ws God beforehand 2. Whereas he saith Christ could as easily have setled the government by miracle we grant it yea and more without a miracle and yet more that he did so in Mat. 16. 19. John 10. 23. Mat. 18. 15 16 17. 3. If Christs delay of Government must be our example then as well for the Anabaptisticall delay of Baptism till his age Luke 3. 23. nor was it Johns office to set up a Government but to prepare the way c. And Christs publike Ministery lasted but foure yeares or three yeares and a half and he began then to set up Government Reply All your proof reaches but to this 1. That God dealt variously with his Church They had first no written Word and after a written Word 2. That Christ could have setled his Government by miracle but did not 3. That Christs delay of Government must be no more our example then his Baptisme My proofe was to shew there was no such morall necessity of the setling because it was not setled Now what have you overthrown here Not that Christ suspended his Government and the seâ—ling of it for that you grant with me and prove it more at large then I did so as all your rest will be answered in two particulars 1. To that of Gods Church and Government before his Word c. which you would insinuate as some advantage to your serling c. What is that to Gods dispensation now if there wanted a Word there was a supplement of vision and dreams c. And I hope you will not goe before the Law so much as you doe for a Patern You goe too far when you goe to the times of the Law You have a Prophet now to hear in all things Act. 3. 22 2. To that of Baptism to be delayed as well as Government from Christs example I cannot dispute that here Master Tomes will satisfie you at large in his learned Examen where he hath made work for a whole Assembly That he knowes not but it may be delayed till they be of years But to answer you in your scope You bring this to prove That Christ is not to be imitated in all things I grant it But what is that to prove that Christ setled not his Government when he began his Ministery or Iohns For the businesse on your part is to find out either that the Government was setled before or with the Ministery or there was as much necessity of it as of the Word but for some reason and not from any thing in the nature of the Government but some other extrinsicall reason it was delayed Which ought not to take place now And this is yet to prove all your proof summed up reaches not to this But you imply The will of God in his dispensations was the cause But the will of God in his dispensations carries a rule of righteousnesse along with it and of spirituall reason And in Gospell dispensations and extrinsicall proceedings of Gods will you will find a rule and golden reed of righteousnesse measuring the Temple and every dispensation and even this of suspending Government hath its rule in the Gospell that a word of obedience must precede and go before a forme of obedience and a word of faith before the obedience of faith and living stones before a living Temple Master Ley's Resolution Page 24 25. Whereas he saith the gifts for Government were not given till Christ ascended it is answered 1. That he ascended 43 dayes after his ministration and that added to the yeare forementioned makes but small difference c. 2. He put his Apostles upon neither of these offices preaching or governing without competent gifts an â—â—ualifications 3. For the modell of it which he saith people fell under as they were capable If he mean the written modell in the Word though it were young in Christs time or his Apostles yet not now we have had 1500 years siâ—câ— Why should that which is so old in constitution be thought too soone for execution And bisides Scripture directions we have many years the paterns of â—â— in many Reformed Churches 4. It hath by soft and slow degrees been brought in aâ— both in debates of Assembly Parliament c. And so sor execution â—â—â— First an Ordinance for Ordination and then a Directory c. Reply You prove here 1. That Christ gave gifts when he ascended and not any longtime in all his ministration and sending gifts 2. That he qualified â—â—s Apostles for government and preaching 3. That the government of Christ now so old should be seen set up as in other Kingdomes 4. That it proceeded by degrees in its setting up here Now all this thus gathered up proves not any thing against my assertion that Christ proceeded by degrees in his Ministery and giving out his government but rather strengthens my assertion And for your Arguments for setling implyed in these particulars 1. That Christs government was but a while in bringing forth the years considered 2. That the government in the Gospel being now so old might to be soone executed 3. That the Paterns of it are in other Reformed Churches I answer to all these in as few words 1. Prove your Argument first to be Christâ— the particulars and entirenesse accordingly and then I shall allow you your Argument but you grant it to be but partly Christs and partly the Assemblies or of Prudence 2. You must prove but the same againe that the government you have is the government there withall Gospel-necessaries take in else though the Gospel-government be never so old yours is but new and this Argument
sin My proofe is this in behalfe of your Argument That conscience which is not wholly consenting is not fully perswaded But such is the State or Publike conscience viz. not fully consenting at this time Therefore the State-conscience is not fully perswaded Note Because some are more for it some are lesse for it I prove the State-conscience not fully consenting That conscience which hath not Scripture to secure it cannot be fully consenting or perswaded But such is the Publike conscience at this time concerning this present Government Therefore the Publike or State-conscience cannot be so fully consenting or perswaded Note Because they which cannot call it a Government by Divine Right are not secured concerning it by the Word and then by conscience are not fully consenting nor perswaded Master Ley's Resolution pag 9 10. If we take his reason to stand immediately against obedience and so consequently against commands c. It is more formall but still as feeble Repugnant to Religion and reason against former Protestations and the Covenant for some will alwaies scruple c. Reply Some of this might have been spared Let us have as much reason and as little reviling as may be Your reason is because then neither Protestations nor Covenant of State can be administred for some will alwaies scruple So as here is the force of your reason Because Protestations and Covenants in the State are put upon a people unwilling and malignant therefore Government should First a truth of Government and the establishment of it is but indirectly unsutably and disproportionably proved from Oaths and Covenants Indeed under the Old Testament and in the State of Israel Covenants were more agreeable to the way of that Church they were part of the Worship then and it was a way of obligation and engagement fitted more to the Policie of that Nation They were a People or Nation of themselves singled out from the world and marked by a carnall Ordinance And their Discipline was fitted to the whole Nation by God himselfe and so Covenants c. gathered them up from the world into their Nationall way of Worship c. But now the way of Church and Worship changing and the Laws of such kind of externall Pedagogie ceasing and a more inward and spirituall Law comming in you might have done well â—re you took things thus for granted to cleere the way of Covenants under the Gospell and not to prove one probable thing by another Those of your way are against a little Church Covenant and why not a great one For the imposing of Protestations now c. It is not my work here to discusse nor am I against any way of State-security that may consist with â—ound Prudence and for the spirituall part of them wherein men covenant in the things of God let every one be fully perswaded in his own mind That is the Apostle's rule I am sure what ever any say to the contrary and will stand In civill things I would have any way or designe of assurance that is fairly and justly Politick in spirituell things only such waies of assurance as are Gospell-waies and may sure with the New Testament-beleevers And now you are to prove more then perhaps you thought on that is to cleare a Church-covenant which many of your Way are against for though you condemne it in some Churches not of your Way yet a Nationall Church-covenant you plead for And how can this be both true and false that a great Church-covenant is lawfull and a little one unlawfull A Nationall Church-covenant lawfull and a Particular or Congregationall Church-covenant unlawfull This only by the way To shew you how one may mistake his way in a mist you were proving a Government and now you are engaged to prove Church covenants which you are both for and against And yet after all this of Protestations and Covenants there is no faire proofe of establishing a Government or imposing it in your way and designe from these It is not safe going to the State for a Paterne for the Church If the State in certain seasons of unfaithfulnesse and unsettlement contrive any way of security and assurance necessity is often a law maker in States yet not so in the Church will you from hence argue for a liberty in the Church Will you make necessity your Gospell your Law-giver there Necessity is sometimes a suspender of laws in the Gospell but no law-maker Master Ley's Resolution pag. 10. But I answer I wonder an ingenuous man as M. Saltmarsh is should make such an Objection Reply These are good words and I hope you shall have no worse then you bring Yet we must speak truth Master Ley's Resolution page 10. I answer The Church government is such as in the chiefe parts of it is from the Word Reply You grant then that the Government is but in some parts warrantable by the Word So was Episcopacie and Prelacy in some parts of it There is not any false Worship or Way but it hath some parts of truth in it The great Image had a head of gold c. The Mystery of iniquity sits in the Temple of God c. The Whore of Babilon sits in Skarlet decked with gold and precious stones and Pearles Truth must be all one and the same and homogeneal not in parts The Jews had not the Law but then their own traditions mingled There is one Lord one Faith not two Master Ley's Resolution page 10. Things of lesser moment in it though they are not directly from Scripture yet not repugnant they are of Prudence and agreeable to the best Reformed Churches Reply But Why of lesser moment All things are of moment of spirituals Indeed if they be such as be not the Gospel s they are then as you say of lesser moment and yet of moment too in another sense for Traditions of men make void the Commandements of God Nor are the grounds of Prudence any Scripture-grounds to rule by Prudence hath let in more Will-worship then any thing Prelacy had its Prudence for every New additionall in Worship and Government And if Presbytery take Prudence too let the Reader judge what may follow And what is that Not directly from Scripture yet not repugnant Surely Christ's rule is not such he opposes any Tradition to the Commandements of God Not directly from Scripture is repugnant to Scripture Such is the onenesse entirenesse indivisibility and essentiality of the Truth He that is not with me is against me And for the Reformed Churches as a rule that is to set the Sun by the Dyall and not the Dyall by the Sun We must set the Churches by the Word and not Church by Church and the Word by the Church Master Ley's Resolution page 10. 11. Because the practice of the Government belongs not to the peoples part but to the Ministers and Elders Because so far as concerns the peoples compliance they are to be instructed before they yeeld submission Because if any
Pastors I write against but the way There may be a Moses in Pharaohs Court a Ioseph in Poâ—phar's house a Cornelius or devout man though out of the Church a Luther even in Rome till the Lord enlighten So as government and discipline is a Churches right and priviledge not the worlds and Nations priviledges as so and then Where are all your quoted Texts which are applied Surely that of Corinth is the Churches and that of Ezekiel and Proverbs makes not for the discipline of a Church at all Master Ley's Resolution Page 16 17. He makes a comparison betwixt materiall and spirituall buildings as stone and timber should not be clapt together in the one soone in the other 1. Similitudes may illustrate but not prove any thing 2. Conformity betwixt materiall and spirituall things is not to be carried too far 3. In materiall buildings or the Temple there is not only squared stones but peeces and rubbish which have their use not so in the spirituall all things there are homogeneall and square and living stones c. 4. Those that he accounts rough and unsquared are in some conformity though not so polished as others 5. The best stones are not to be taken from the rest to make up a building by themselves as in seperated Congregations 6. Let him shew any such example in the New Testament where when there was a mixture of holy and prophane as in Corinth i Cor. 11. 21. the Apostles gathered out the holy part 7. That of Axes and Hammers hath a mysterious truth in it but not to his purpose viz. That the spirituall building is built of the soft and secret whispers and motions of the spirit Reply To that of the similitudes I fully agree with you they illustrate better then they prove To that of not carrying a conformity betwixt materials and spirituals too high I agree with you in that too yet not so fully for Iesus Christ the great Prophet of the Gospell preached the glory of the Kingdome in materiall comparisons in salt water leven mustard-seed sowers husbandmen vines vineyards c. To that of spirituall buildings which you say are to be made up only of squared living stones I agree with you and here the controversie might be ended If your Temples shall be of living stones the controversie is granted But because I will not seem to mistake you I beleeve the spirituall building you mean and I are not the same here You mean as it appears the invisible spirituall or Church mysticall and yet there all is not so Homogeneall and of the same kind neither The head of the body is both God and man and one member like one star differs from another in glory But we are speaking of the spirituall building or Church here which is the Image of the Church above and as that is of true reall essentially spirituall living stones so the Church below is to consist at least of such as visibly and formally appeare so and therefore the Apostle cals them in his Epistles Saints and called to be Saints And to that of your peeces of Rubbish in the materiall building It is true But what is that to Salomons Temple which my comparison drives up to How much Rubbish can you prove in that type nay square stones pure Cedar gold c. to figure out the Gospell-building or Temple as in Heb. 9. So as your rubbish is only in your owne allusion not in mine To that of your unpolished stones in your Parishes which may fit the Temple now I answer It must be then only such a building as the materiall one you speake on which is made up of rubbish and broken peeces and if that be according to Christs patern let these Scriptures in the margin with many more determine And for their submitting indeed there is a nationall blinde traditionall obedience in them I cannot call it Gospell submission To that of the best stones not to be taken out to make up a building I answer I am sure we are to take in no ill unhewne unpolished and the Scripture cautions and practise are cleare c. then judge you what the stones must be Nor doe we so picke and chuse as if all stones were to be square alike or equally polished that is not in any materiall building Though we would take in no rubbish yet we take in stores differently squared As in the body one member differs from another the eye and hand and foot c. and members lesse honourable 1 Cor. 12. so in the body of the Church every one according to his measure and as every one hath received Nor do we stand so for the first polishing as you pretend You make as if we set up such degrees of perfection as were only the degrees of the invisible or mysticall body when it is meerly in the degrees of visible Gospell-perfection By this you would make the carnall to abhor and the weaker to stumble and be offended as if the doore of our Churches were not open for any such whom you imply were of a temper meerly Spirituall and of a size of our owne not the Scriptures Let the doores of our Churches be as strait as you imply I am sure your doors are set open or rather cast off the hinges but a pure Gospel-entrance is neither too wide nor too narrow We know there is smoaking flax and bruised reeds measures of grace If they can willingly submit to Iesus Christ their Law-giver and walk as members of the body here they may receive polishing and have honour and building up and many other degrees of perfection which the Saints of God obtaine when they are in fellowship with the Father and the Son To that of your challenge that I should shew any such example in the New â—â—stament of taking out the best when there was a mixture of holy and prophane I answer Those were Gospel-Churches gathered by the Word and Spirit into Gospel-fellowship and when you make your Parishes to appeare such Churches then I shall tell you more till then I suspend your challenge The world and an Antichristian Nation are both under Christs fan for gathering them out To that of a mysterious truth you speak on in the Axes and Hammers I agree with you in that and because of the mystery I therefore quoted it And whereas you summe up all the mystery into the soft whisperings and motions of the Spirit you can hardly warrant us or secure us that your interpretation is the whole mind of the Spirit and that very interpretation of yours is part of it the very same I aime at viz. to shew how the Gospel-building is softly gathered and made up by the Ministery of the Word and Spirit and not with Axes and Hammers tools of a compulsive forcing sharp and authoritative nature as c. Master Ley's Resolution Page 17 18 19. For that of his c. whore he makes Christs description of himself c. to be against the establishment
and the sutablenesse Christ presses for I answer 1. If his reason be of force against a speedy Government it is as well against a Government at any time 2. That Christ in his owne nature and his Government differ exceedingly Christ came to suffer Paul 2. 7. 3. Neither is Christ so remisse as not to take upon him a Government The Head must govern the Body Nor so meeke He hath anyron Rod as well as a golden Scepter Psal 2. 9. Esth 5. 2. and though he was sometimes a servant c. yet sometimes a Lord too John 2. 14. and though he be a Lambe yet he hath a formidable mouth too c. Rev. 8. 15. 4. For his Scriptures produced Mat. 12. 19. 1 John 5. 3. they make nothing against a speedy but against a grievous Government And though his yoke be easie yet not easie to flesh and bloud Matth. 5. 29. and 16. 2 c. as in self-deniall 5. Nor hath his other place any sober sense in it Matth 9. 7. nor makes it against Government at this time but any time The wine will be alwayes new at the first and the longer delayed the older will the bottles be Reply To that If against a speedy Government then against a Government at any time I answer How doe you infer that Nothing of those makes against the Government of Christ rightly constituted and ordered and setled upon those called to be Saints Indeed they make against any other Government at all times as well as now Nor will there be alwayes such a people under Christs yoke as you thinke on But you look further abroad then I and in that we mistake one another You looke that whole Kingdomes and Nations should submit and I look only for one of a Tribe two of a City c. Your Horizâ—n and the Scripture's for Government are not equall To that of Christs nature and Government differing so much and therefore my Text proves nothing I answer Every thing of Christ's bears the Image of Christ Every Truth of His hath something of Himself in it who is Truth it self by way of excellency I am the Truth saith he Every beam of light is light Then how can Christ and his Government differ so as you pretend Surely if we observe well there is not any Truth but it partakes of Him who is The truth and is a beam or sparkle of him Truth is Homogeneal and not so unlike and contrary dispositioned and natured as you pretend And for your expounding the Text He shall not strive c. as a Prophecye you doe well in part but you know Prophecyes have a latitude and Scriptures have not only one main and principall but many subordinate aims so as though this Scripture concerne his sufferings principally yet it doth in a latitude set forth the nature of Him who is Truth in Him we may see how those things which are pretended for Truth hold proportion To that of Christ the Head and taking the Government of his Body c. I answer It is true Christ is a Head but he is not a Head to every Body He will have a Body proportionable to his Head Is a Nation of all sorts a fit Body for such a Head Is he not a pure holy glorious Head in his Gospell-dispensation and is a Body so leprous so wicked so formall so traditionally and Antichristianly corrupted a fit Body Shall I take the members of my body saith Paul and joyn them to an harlot to make one flesh God forbid What then shall the Head do with such Members To that of His Ruling with a Rod of Iron as well as a golden Scepter Psa 2. Esth 5. I answer And doth He rule any in his Church with his Rod of Iron who were not called in first by his Golden Scepter And for that of his Iron Rod in Psal 2. that is spoken of Christ not as King of his Church but of Nations And that of Esth 5. what is that Golden Scepter to Christs unlesse you bring a Text only to prove that there is such a thing as a Golden Scepter in the Scriptures For your other Texts of Christs being a servant and a Lord a Lambe and terrible you only prove what I grant that he is more a King and a Lord in his Government then in any other of his Gospel-dispensations But all this will not prove the Lordship of such a Presbytery or Government Certainly you intend it a terrible Government because you bring in those Texts that have all the judgement and severity in them which Christ threatens to the Nations and Kings of the earth not to his Churches Will you make Christ rule in his Church as he doth in the world well let your Presbytery enjoy the Iron Scepter while the Churches of Christ enjoy the Golden and try if you ruine not more then you rule and break not more then you bow To that of Mat. 12. 19. 1 Iohn 5. 3. The yoke easie c they make not against a speedy but a grievous Government I answer I cannot expresse my selfe better then in your owne words They make against a grievous Government which is all I aime at in the Quotation And whereas you say the yoke is not easie to flesh and bloud so say I too it is very burdensome and the Commandements grievous to the unregenerate and therfore I prove from hence that it is only a fit and sutable yoke for the Saints and a Commandement for them And there is the same proportion of the outward government to the outward man that there is of the other spirituall Laws in the Gospell to the inward man and none but the Saints can delight in either Men are to be spiritually moulded and framed to the Law of Gospel-discipline that kind of Discipline is not like your civill Discipline this way of Discipline you would have is too Politick and Nationall it takes in a people to subdue as the Laws of Civill Policie which finding a people unsubdued subdues them So doth not Christ as we reade of the dispensation of the Word not the government subdues And thus with much ado you only prove them to be as I intended them no Commandements for the mixed and unregenerate or in a word Christs government no Nationall government To that where you say Nor hath his place any sober sense in it Mat. 9. 17. The new wine will be alwayes new and the longer delayed the older the bottles will be I answer I wonder that one of your experience in the Majesty of the Word should be so pleasant with a Scripture allegory because the Scripture is of wine You jest on it as if it had made the sense lesse sober I am sorry my younger pen should reprove the aged for jesting which the Apostle sayes is not convenient And truly it is not comely for the servants to play upon the Master of the Feast or any thing in his house especially upon his wine which alludes so to
debarre it for over I answer Yea forever would I debarre a government not clear from the Word and not one haire would I debarre a government that had the name of Christ in Scripture-letters engraven upon it pure Gospell-principles and proceedings To your other That a new-star is to prepare for a misguider and your story of Barchochebas upon it it hath more light somnesse then light in it But why should you be so pleasant with my expression of truth by a Star It is the very allegory of the Spirit Christ cals himselfe the morning star the light which springs from above The Spirit is called the day-star arising in our hearts and the Spouse is attired in a crown of twelve stars Nor do I call to any to look for a new created star of truth but an old yet new appearing star to us one of those stars in the Gospell-firmament which the Clouds of Tradition and Ignorance hinder us from seeing And now what of your story But what way is most likely to mislead That which b 〈…〉 you prove and try all things and accordingly follow or that which saith This is the way compell them to come in not only as the Gospell compels in the Parable by a Spirit of power but by a civill power not a power of word only but of State too and so tw-sting the Gospell with the Law and humane authority with divine Master Ley's Resolution pag. 27 28 29. To his other prudent all rule which is That he makes the Civill and Ecclesiasticall power so linked that if there be motions in the one there will be no quietnesse in the other I answer 1. He aimes at the perpetuall prohibition not at a temporall forbearance only He carries it on so as if we must allow him the authority of a Politick Dictator 2. What if they reciprocate interests must the Civill State leave every man or Congregation to be governed Judg. 17.6 3. Because disturbances are communicated therefore the Civill State ought to settle the Ecclesiasticall that it may enjoy its own peace theâ—olleration â—olleration of the Protestants of France Henry the fourth being a Protestant though a revolter and recovering his rights by the arms of Protestants he could do no lesse in humanity then allow them their Religion though now tollerated because the trust est friends to the Crown of France For that of the State being most free where the conscience is least straitned If free in indulgence to all Religions he complies with the Author of The Bloudy Tenet If free from commotions experience in severall Ages and Countries prove the contrary For that of his Parable of the Teares and the Wheat If there must be such mixtures tollerated what warrant have they to pluck the Wheat from the Tares nay Wheat from Wheat in their now gathering Churches Reply You prove against my reason the compliance and nearnesse of the Civill and Ecclesiasticall power occasioning motions in each other 1. By the authority I assume of a Politick Dictator But what doth my assuming prove against the complyaney and motions of the two Powers This is no proofe against the two Powers of Church and State but against use I hope you conceive not they are concentred in me a private Divine as you call me nor would I give any thing out in way or Magistrality but evidence you and I and Assemblies of men are not infallible 2. By my aiming at the perpetuall prohibition But what doth this prove against the compliancy and motions in the two powers This is still against me not against my reason And further because I suggest a reason of not embodying the Civill and Ecclesiasticall Powers too suddenly therefore saith he I aime a 〈…〉 perpetuall prohibition How doth this follow I aime to prohibit it rebus sic stantibus therefore for ever I aime to prohibit it because as yet neither the Discipline appears to be all Christs nor the Parishes fit matter for Churches therefore I prohibit it for ever Is this good reasoning They that do over-desire the enjoying any thing do measure time by eternity and weeks by Ages and take a little deferring for everlasting Why is his Charets saith Siferah's mother so long in comming 3. Because they reciprocate Interests therefore is every Congregation to be left at liberty Yea at liberty in Spiritualls and not as they will but as the Gospell perswades the will Yea and because they reciprocate Interests therefore to be left at liberty say you Rather because they reciprocate Interests to be cautious how they mingle and incorporate Interests too soon And if any just liberty may arise to the people of God from such State-pauses why not such a liberty Should the Churches be ever persecuted and have no rest It was not so under the first Persecution Then had the Churches rest Because say you disturbances are communicated therefore settle the Ecclesiasticall that the civill may enjoy peace But can you secure the Civill from the Ecclesiasticall in peace ought you to have a State-being or a Church-being first Is this good reasoning Because disturbances are communicated therefore order it so that the Civill may be within the Line of communication or of Ecclesiasticall disturbances by clasping and incorporating them together So as it follows better thus Because they reciprocate Interests therefore take heed how you establish because the State cannot but establish a way something of its own in the Ecclesiasticall To that of Henry the fourth's humanity which you presse because the Protestants helpt him by arms I answer Let but the same humanity be copied out by the State here and presse for it here as you do there and we are agreed Surely you have the same and greater ingagements Your Brethren whom you call Schismeticks and Hereticks have not been sparing of Arms and Bloud in the high places of the field and in a Cause more glorious with successe more admirable with courage as gallant And sure they have been found as trusty friends to this State as the Protestants to the State of France You say That State is rather free in indulgence as the Bloudy Tenet then free from commotions c. For the freedome contended for by The bloudy Tenet when I undertake to prove his freedom at large then put us together till when deale fairly I could as easily draw something of yours under the Line of Prelacie but I would not force any mans notions much lesse yours You see of what stamp the Liberty is I contend for And for Commotions let the world judge if all the broyles and combustions kindled not from the Coales on the Alia and from the flame of an Ecclesiasticall Interest such as you contend for For that of the Tares and Wheat c. where you charge us with mixture tollerated or rather with plucking up Wheat from the Tares c. in Church-gathering I answer We tollerate no mixture but in the world where Christ himselfe tollerates as in the same Paâ—able not
that the cords bruised his shoulders and made them swell as bigg as a penny â—oase and the Warden made him be gagged as if he would teare his jawes Answer THat the graduall subordination is made good by Mr Rutherford c. Is this reasoning or reference And this you have done all along referred us either to your selfe or some other to answer for you That your Presbyteries are not so singular more free convenient more peaceable more Apostolicall more Authorized then other Churches These are good commendations but had halfe so much been proved by the Word your Government had passed before this For that of Sacriledge and usurpation upon God in alienating Tythes never did Prelate no nor Bishop Mountague plead an higher title for tythes What sacriledge and usurpation to deny Tythes Where are you in the Covenant or no is it not a Parliament Ordinance you take them by and will you set up a Divine Right over that now surely they may justly now withdraw their Ordinance for Tythes and leave you to your Divine Right and see what the people will pay you To that of your commending old men and age I reverence age and old men but not the old man in them And for dreames being more excellent then visions It is a curious speculation and enough may be said for both yet if you take Visions more spiritually they are a more glorious way of Revelation then that of dreames but what are these dreames to yours Surely Reformation in bloud or by persecution is but a dream of such as have slept long in Prelacie Why are you so much in the defence of jeasting and so serious in your Scripture proofes for it take heed of strengthening corrupt nature by Scripture God and Eliah saw errors more cleerely then you or I who may assoon laugh at the Scripture it selfe as something beside it And for other Church-Governments not comming under the tryall of Parliament nor comming out by their authority I know not any that would not humbly lay downe their Scripture-order to that honourable Senate and rejoyce that they would take it up to discusse and for not comming out under their authority I know none of the rest so ambitious or troublesome to the Magistrate as to solicite them to compell their order upon all their Brethren and all must be Hereticks and Schismaticks that will not though they cannot beleeve so For Gospell-patterns being as much in the letter as the Legall because written are you such a stranger to the Spirits notion of Letter and Spirit in the New Testament Know you not that the Temple or Legall Worship before was said to be in the Oldnesse of the Letter Know you not that Gospell-patternes are more seen by the Spirit now then before and though both be written and in Letter yet not both equally litterall but the one more glorious in the ministration the other lesse For that of the suffererâ— Mr Prynn Mr Burton Mr Lilburne and Mr Bestwick And Mr Lilbourne written in such capitall Letters of blâ—â—â—d as you justly say and can you name these and call for the power in your hands as you do Can you thus remember Prelates and yet petition to be such Presbyters Can you see these yet bleeding and desire to persecute by such a President of Bloud FOr Salmasius his testimony with the Baptisme in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ and his testimony that the Presbyterâ— is but of humane and positive right not of Divine He is mine and not yours and all youâ— paines and quarrelling and after quotations cannot make him more yours or lesse mine and it is no little disadvantage to you that one so great a Schollar as your whole Assembly affords any hath thus witnessed with the truth which so many Schollars oppose C. D. his Treatise printed with Master Ley's Book in Master Ley's Commendation whether made by himselfe or some other he best knows HIs Title is One of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster And there you might have known of what account he was among his Reverend Brethren He was chosen Chaire man of the Committée of examination of Ministers and of the Committée of Printing and one of the Tryers and one of the Ordainers of Ministers next after the two Doctors Chaire-man I remember not any of the Apostles in such Offices and Titles You might have known him by his Pattern of Piety his Book on the Sabbath by divers Sermons of his â—â— Print his Annotations on the Pentateuch and he hath much more prepared for the Presse then is already printed All which are approved by those most able to judge of iudicious and learned Laboure Give them leave to speak themselves in this point The Greek Anagram made on his name when President of Sion Colledge THE SUN IN SION with Verses If the Sun be there why no more Light there then For his Name you would think it too venerable c. John in the Hebrew signifies Grace and Ley in Spanish the Law With some Letters in his Commendation in pag. 19 20. c. THus I have gathered up all in your Book that concernes you materially and your friend printed on the backside of yours And for other particulars more substantiall your Books and mine are both abroad let them speak for themselves the Readers must now judge in the Spirit what we both write in the Letter for I intend not to puzzle the world with any more of this Controversie Some Truth may be seen and what is more is but you and I. SIR I was unwilling to set your failings before you and the world but since you printed them once over in mistake I thought I might print them over in a cleerer letter that you may see things for Errours which before you took for Truths Conclusion THus I have replyed to your Positions not to your passions nor reproaches in which you are something larger then I had thought becomes an Orthodex Divine And for the dirt you cast in my face I have only wiped it off without casting it back on yours I had rather let it fall in the Channell which best becomes it For your Revilings sleightings and railings if they trouble not your selfe to write the Presse to print and the Reader to read I promise you they trouble not me And though I am much below many yet I am in this above you that I can forgive you by how much he that can pardon is greater then he that offends I thanke you for your ill usage you cannot do that against me which works not for my good for I am learning to blesse them that curse me to pray for them that despightfully use me And truly this advantage I shall make of your taxing me for faults which I have not To taxe my selfe of the many other faults which I have indeed which you and the world see not FINIS REASONS FOR Vnitie Peace and Love WITH AN ANSWER Called Shadows
with such power from heaven became it is not managed according to pure Gospell-order nor upon a people rightly prepared and fitted so as the fault is not because there is a Government as the Vindication observes but not the pure Government nor the Government rightly placed And for his Charge against the purer Congregations as I know not any such doings amongst them so I will make no Apologie for them because that would bring them within the compasse of something like a crime and I know nothing but well by them THE NEW QVAERES Folio 1. Of the Vindication propounded to the Honourable PARLIAMENT ASSEMBLY Quaere 1. VVHether a bare Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament not backed with Authority of the Civill Magistrate be not like to prove an impotent and invalid and ineffectuall meanes Whether it be not a far better way in point of Conscience and Prudence to admit scandalous persons to the Sacrament not actually excommunicated though they thereby eat and drinke judgement to themselves then to deprive any to whom it really belongs Antiquaere 1. Whether is there any excommunication or no For the Vindication questions it in calling it an invalid thing and if so How can any such thing be setled at all as an Ordinance in the Church Whether ought Authority to joyne it selfe with any thing so questionable as the Vindication would have it Since nothing hath proved more fatall Whether excommunication being granted be any such bare thing as the Vindication speaks on so impotent 〈…〉 and ineffectuall without being Authorized from a power from men And whether the Ministers are to strike with the Magistrates Sword Whether all the differences about Excommunication be not from the want of true Church-constitution And whether a Nationall Church be not too wide for the Ordinances and the Scabbard too big for the Sword And whether Solomons Temple and Christs be all of a largenesse so that one golden Reed will measure both Whether the old Temple that had Windowes of narrow Lights be any pattern for the new Whether any thing of Prudence As admitting scandalous persons to eat their owne damnation as the Vindication saith Rather then to deprive them to whom it really belongs be any Scripture-way of arguing which forbids us not to doe evill that good may come thereby Whether any sin or offence be committed in such cases of deprivation of scandalous persons seeing though it may really belong to them yet the Church nor Dispenser not knowing any such thing nor judging but only by the Rule of visible walking to the Word and the Rule of evidences there for Administration of Ordinances can faithfully administer but accordingly for they that walke according to this Rule peace be on them and on the Israel of God Whether the Law of God in this be not as equitable as the Law of Man which judges not of secrets nor takes cognizance of things unknown Whether it be not rather the scandalous persons only sin who if he have a reall interest will not live in the evidence of it nor walke by the Rule of Administrations that he may partake Quaere 2. Fol. 51. Whether the suspending such persons from the Sacrament being no Ordinance of Christ without a totall suspension will not be a meanes rather to harden And whether their admission be not rather a more probable way of reclayming being accompanied with serious Admonitions Exhortations publike and serious Reprehensions Reasons 1. Because that such persons are more hardned by it totall exclusion only working shame 2. Because against their receiving like Italians in Lent they will be holy for a day or two and make vows c. and may be so converted 3. Many then will read c. which would not do so before in an Hypocriticall conscience and the Sacrament is a Covenant which binds all receivers to reforme 4. The Sacraments are so accompanied with Examinations Exhortations c. that ten to one would be converted by such admonition rather then by suspention therefore Christ when he came to save sinners permitted them familiarly to him and his Ordinances Antiquaere 2. Whether Excommunication according to the Vindication grounds being a questionable Ordinance as well as suspention one of them may not be as well made use on as the other Suspention as well as Excommunication upon his grounds Whether the Admonitions Exhortations Reprehensions Examinations be such as Christ appointed to make the Sacrament an Ordinance for all scandalous sinners to come to or rather to quicken and spiritualize the worthy receivers who receive according to the visible Rule of Administrations as the whole straine of Scripture precept and practice speake Whether all the three first Reasons presuppose not such a Church-constitution for Ordinances and partakers as the Scriptures never speak on For where is there any such constituted Church of scandalous and Italianated persons who were constituted according to the Rule and for Corinth and the rest that had such bad Members they are not examples in that of gathering or constituting or administring but reforming as the Apostles who calls them to the rule of the Word This one mistake hath deceived many Whether Christ in permitting scandalous sinners to converse with him familiarly when he was here in the flest be any rule for admitting all such sinners now to the mystery of his spirituall Ordinances And whether there be not a spirituall difference betwixt Christ not offered and offered betwixt his conversing in the flesh for making up the mystery of Redemption and the mystery of Redemption made up and finished by the eternall Spirit in which he offered himselfe betwixt Christ in the flesh and in the Spirit or Ordinance Whether did Christ intend his ordinary or occasionall converting to be any rule for his Church or Kingdome in its Administrations or Ordinances which is a worke of another forme And whether this intermingling of carnall and spirituall notions be a Scripture-way Whether ought we to force any consequences or inferences upon the Word for practise in administrations in things neither clearly nor intentionally for ought we see nor mystically directed appointed or instituted by Christ And whether such a ground once granted will not let in one kind of will-worship as well as another And for that ten to one being converted so as he sayes Quere Whether it is not ten to one any will be a converted but rather hardned Quere 3. Fol. 53. Whether did Christ ever intend that none but true believers should receive his Supper or did he not infallibly know that many unregenerate and impenitent should and would receive it And the Antagonists grant that close Hypocrites have an external right then if these why not others Christ having ordained the Sacrament of the Supper as well as the Word to be a savour of death to such and God hath his end in both the glory of his Justice in the one as well as of his Grace and Mercy in the other Antiquaere Whether
take heed we forget not him who is greater then the Temple for one greater then the Temple is here It would be spiritually considered that while we strive for the Vessels and Cups we spill not the Wine And it ought to be so carried by all of us that because we are so much in opinion we may not be thought to place Religion there as I feare too many do making a Christ of the very Ordinance of Christ and pressing some outward Ordinances of the Gospell so legally as some hearing such a power of Salvation put into them and finding an outward dispensation more easily got then the spirituall make haste thither only and then sit down as saved under a meere outward Ordinance The Lord grant that we may neither undervalue an Ordinance nor the least Institution of Iesus Christ nor raise it up into a Iesus Christ and set up the Law above or beside the Law-giver We must now learne to know Iesus Christ lesse after the flesh and not to embody salvation in a meer outward dispensation and so incarnate Iesus Christ over again from the glory and spirituality he is in Brethren farewell For my part I am fully assured from Scriptures of the Church of Christ here or Gospell-fellowship of the Saints and unto this fellowship with the Father and the Son I endeavour and I have one way to reveale Truth to me which I cannot conceale nor yet cannot practice as I would and that is this To see Truth by living in the power of Truth and by first obtaning Jesus Christ to live in us in the power of his suffering death and Resurrection for surely Jesus Christ must do all though more gloriously and spiritually over again in his which he did in himselfe If Jesus Christ the Light be in us the light by which every outward dispensation is seen will flow in for where the Sun is there will be every beame with it THE CONTENTS A way of Peace or a Designe for Reconciliation 1 GOds Love the first and last glorious Vâ—ion to be considered to draw us to Vnity Page 1 2 Names of Sect and Division to be laid down p. 2 3 Passions and Railings forborn Ibid. 4 Reviling each other for infirmities forborn Ib. 5 The sins of any not to be laid on the Cause Ib. 6 Liberty for Printing and Speaking Ibid. 7 Let all subscribe their names to what they Print Ibid. 8 Let all be severally accountable pag. 3 9 Free Debates and open conferences Ibid. 10 Let us call Beleevers though of severall Opinions if the name of Brethren cannot be justly allowed Ib. 11 No Beleevers to esteem too highly of themselves for what they attain to Ibid. 12 No assuming infallibility over each other p. 4 13 No civill power drawn into advantages Ib. 14 Tendernesse in offending each other in things of an outward nature Ibid. 15 Severall Opinions from the Gospels first discovery yet all beleevers p. 5 16 No despising for too much Learning or too little Ibid. 17 We be one in Christ though divers Ibid. 18 The Spirituall Persecution to be forborn Ib. The Unwarrantable Way of Peace or the Antichristian Design for Reconciliation TO beleeve as the Church or Councils p. 6 â—o set up oâ—e as the Pope for Infallibility Ib. To allow that all may be saved in their severall wayes p. 7 To forbid Interpretings and Disputes Ibid. By a compuâ—sive power Ibid. The Opinions of these times â— Resbytery so called what it is and what they hold p. 8 â—ceptions against Presbytery p. 9. â— dependency so called what it is and what they hold Ibid. â—ceptions against Independency p. 10 â—abapâ—isme so called what it is and what they hold p. 12 Exceptions against the grounds of the new Baptism Ibid. Seeking or Seekers so called what their Way is and what they hold p. 16 Exceptions against them Ibid. Conclusion p. 19 The Gospell or New Testament proved undeniably to be the very Word of God p. 20 One Argument from the Nationall Covenant Art 1 and 2. for Liberty of Conscience p. 23 Objections against it answered p. 25 26 Spirituall Principles drawn forth of the Controversie GOspell-truth one and the same p. 60 Prudence and Consequences are the great Engines of Will-worship Ibid. The People are Brethren and Saints in Christs Church but in Antichrists Parishioners and servants p. 61 Presbytery it self is founded on Principles of Separation which yet they condemn for Schism in other Churchesâ—ay is the greatest Separation p. 62 None to be forced under Christs Kingdom as in the Kingdomes of the world Ibid. The power of a formall Reformation in a Government makes it not Christs Government p. 63 The visible Church or Communion is the Image of the invisible or mysticall p. 64 How Christ is a King of the Nations and of the Church and how an Head Ibid. The Presbyteriall Government and the Worlds of the same equall Dominion p. 65 The Nationall and Congregationall Church-covenant both lawfull or both unlawfull Ibid. We receive and give out Truth by parts p. 66 All Coveâ—anâ—ers are bound to contribute to Religion as well as State p. 67 We are to try Truth and so receive it in its degrees p. 67 No Church-way Independency p. 68 A spirit of Love and Meeknes becomes Beleevers Ib. When a State-conscience is fully pâ—rswaded doubtfull and so sinning Ibid. A Post-script with Salmasius his Testimony against the present Presbyteriall way p. 69 A WAY OF PEACE OR A Designe of Reconciliation How the Beleevers of severall Opinions scandalously called Presbyterians Independents Anabaptists Seekers may be reconciled to forbeare one another 1 Gods love the first and last glorious Vnion to be considered to draw us to Vnity ONe way is to consider love as it is in God and flowing from him upon the creature God is love and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him Now the more love there is in any the more of God there is in any Satan the first fountaine of sin made the first Schisme in the glorious Communion All was one and in one glory till the first division and till Satan fell like lightening and he envying the whole Creation which was in love with it self and him that made it drew it into sin and antipathies and mutuall persecutions and when it began to leave loving him that was pure and infinite love it began to hate it self and divide from it self So as the lesse love the more of Satan and sin The consideration of Gods love to himself which is infinite of his love to his which is no lesse infinite because to sinners and of his Sons love spiritually uniting himself here and gloriously hereafter into one Body and Communion cannot but make us love one another 2 Names of Sects and Division to be laid down Let all names and notes of distinction taken up by way of scandall and reproach be laid down and forborn names and notions are like Standards
they were more in the light and the immediate way of the revelation of Truth 3. They tooke not in the power of the Magistrate to help them nor did they clasp it as one with their own 4. They consisted of ‖ Brethren as well as of the Presbyterie and both together had a joynt interest and concurrencie in all power 5. The Presbyteries were not as now Classicall Provinciall Nationall these are no Scripture-forms but devises of men 6. The Presbyterie is of no more in the Greek then of a ‖ metaphorical or figurative signification signifying Seniority or Eldership and the setting it up in a notion of power and office is more then the Scriptures will clearly beare such Notions in the Word are but Notions of form and order not of Office 7. The Presbyteries now are not rightly constituted because they consisted of a Ministery from Antichrist and the Bishops of Rome ordaining one another by the same power they received from them 8. Their ‖ Congregations are not such as before so constituted because Parishes are of a Popish and politick constitution 9. Baptisme is not to be received by Generation now as Circumcision was but by Regeneration or visible Profession as at first Nor are the carnall seed now any more children of Abraham but the ‖ Faithfull And no Ordinance is now to be administred upon legall consequence but upon Gospell-precept Independancy So called What it is and what they hold THe people of God are only a Church when called by the Word and Spirit into Consent or Covenant and Saints by profession and all Church-power is laid in here and given out from hence into Pastorship and Elders c. and a just distribution of Interest betwixt Elders and People All spirituall Government is here and not in any power forreigne or extrinsecal to the Congregation or authoritative Their children are made Christians first by Infant-baptisme and after by the Word and they are baptized by a foederal or Covenant-holinesse or Birth-priveledges as under the Law They may enjoy all Ordinances in this estate and some may Prophesie Exceptions 1. THat there is not such a power radically or fundamentally placed in the Church to make Pastors and Elders c. because there is first no such practice in the Word but rather of an Apostolicall or Ministeriall power which made or gathered Churches first not Churches them 2. The Eldership and Presbitery of Apostles and Elders did principally act and authoritatively act and not the whole Church or people they in a lower and lesse Interest in a way of choyce or vote and consent 3. That which is called Ordination c. was by the Apostles and a power established in the Presbitery not in the Church as meer Beleevers 4. They that were Baptized by an Antichristian power are no right Baptized Members of Churches and yet so are all of their Churches as were Baptized under Prelacie the power of the dispenser being Antichristian and the subject or Infant no visible Beleever for that Ordinance 5. Their Church consists not all of visible Saints or Beleevers according to their own Principle for their children being baptized and in that condition are no actuall visible Saints all their Church are not living stones nor visibly holy And it may be more cleerly proved that meer civill and morall men are rather to be admitted of their Church-society then such as children are who are but meerly naturally visible neither spiritually civilly nor morally visible 6. That of foederal holynesse in 1 Cor. 7. 14. is only to satisfie a scruple that if Vnbeleeving made wife or husband unholy it made children unholy too and so both or none must be put away 7. There is no carnall seed now to be sealed Christ being come in the flesh which flesh before had a Seale of Circumcision but there is no such externall priviledge now by any such right 8. All Consequences drawn from Circumcision are of no more force then from the cloud and the Sea and the rocke and Noah's Arke and other typicall and figurative places in the Word nor can any legall or probable Scriptures make any Law or Rule for any such Gospell-administration which is not directly and in Scripture-words to be found 9. Childrens Baptisme in the Church is a way never to have a Church of such Baptized Beleevers as in the Apostles times 10. Baptisme being a visible signe cannot rationally be administred upon one that cannot see nor discern what is done to whom the water can be no signe but they are only told of it when they come to age and how can it hold proportion with Circumcision when as that was a mark remaining in the flesh when they came to age to signifie to them But water is like a flash of lightning which must be taken by the Beleever in that quick and vanishing act or else it hath no sensible efficacy to which it was instituted nor doth the Beleever thus any other way enjoy it but by way of History or a thing past and done which he never saw Baptisme is as a flash of lightning as it is well observed by one Circumcision was as a fixed Star so much difference in these two Rites 11. Institution of Baptisme is to duty as well as grace which children cannot perform and so answer the signe 12. Institution of Baptisme is doctrinall in the very act of it as is acknowledged by all the present Baptism Matth. 28. Baptizing them in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost c. Now this implies a capable and teachable subject 13. Their Churches are not distinct from other Societies Antichristian because there is no visible gifts by which their Churches are visibly qualified from any other Societies and according to the promises of gifts in Ephes 4. 11. nor no such Church-gifts as in 1 Cor. 12. c. where there was the gifts of the Spirit powerfully and visibly spiritualizing that body and making it to excell all other bodies civill or Antichristian And that Prophesie was a more extraordinary gift then is now any where in the Churches Anabatisme So called What it is and what they hold THe Church of Christ are a Company of baptized Beleevers and whatsoever Disciple can teach the Word or make out Christ may baptize or administer other Ordinances That the Church or Body though but of two or three yet may enjoy the Word and Ordinances by way of an Administrator or one deputed to administer though no Pastor That none are to be baptized but Beleevers That those commonly called Church-Officers as Pastors c. are such as the Church or Body may be without That none are to be called Brethren but baptized Beleevers All administrations of Ordinances were given to the Apostles as Disciples not so under the notion
remain unsatisfied they are not to be put upon his Dilemma of sin or misery or to be ruled with the rod but meeknesse 2 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Because the ignorance of the people generally which he would have for a reason to suspend it ought to be rather a reason for expedition that they may practically know it for while it is unknown it is slandered which might have been more amiable Because his two Texts make not only against the suspending for a time but for ever I wish he would preach such Texts as these to his people â— Thes 5. 12 13. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 7 17. Reply To your first It belongs not to the people c. It seems then the people must be kept out from all intermedling But I would have the people mark well what kind of Government that is that sits upon the waters or people I am sure Christ's Government takes in the people and being once in a Church-way they lose their old capacity for a new and are raised up from People to Brethren Act. 15. It is a worthy saying of Master Goodwyn and Master Nye That the Clergie got the golden ball of Government amongst them and I censure it is not much mended in the Presbytery But you say The people must be instructed that is they must only know that they must obey But they are called and consulted with and owned as the Scripture holds forth where ever there is any Church spoken of But what though instructed They are only to be instructed and taught that this is the Government to which they must submit So the people under Popery Prelacy c. were instructed with that limitation and restriction But shall they be thus instructed and taught in it People here is a Government which to some of us seemeth to be a Government according to the Word take it and examine it if you be so perswaded and that the Word holds it forth clearly embrace it if not do not obey anything in blind and implicite obedience This were faire dealing with Conscience thus the Churches of Christ had their Government among them To that of the peoples compliancy you speak on it is not my work here to dispute the Interests of Elders and People distinctly but to make answer that the complyancy and submission which are the duties you set out for the people are such as they may easily see the Interest you allow them viz. an Interest of compliance only and submission or obedience to what is done already not any liberty to examine and refuse And when people are instructed still your work remaines to prove your Presbytery over Congregations or a Church gathered out of a Church to be over a Church which may upon the Presbytery more justly be recriminated then where you do so often recriminate upon gathered Churches And me thinks to me it is unreasonable to taxe any for church-gathering when your very Presbytery is maintained by such a kind of principle What is your Classicall your Provinciall your Nationall Presbytery but a Church gathered out of the rest call it a virtuall or representative or what you please For that of Meeknesse how meek it will prove and how meekly they shall be dealt with under it we are not to judge by any promises of Meeknesse but by Principles Are the Principles such as naturally bring forth Meeknesse or rather such as invest the Ministers and Elders with a power supreame and of dominion But what if such as your self and some other godly meek of your Way may propound nothing but waies of meeknesse to your selves Can you undertake to secure the people for hereafter and for all of the Way and for the Way in its own nature There are things of meek appearances as the Presbytery may be yet prove not so The Lamb in the Revelation had two horns though a Lamb. Hazael could say Am I a dog that thou shouldest think so harshly of me that I should kill the children in the womb 2 King 8 He as little suspected his own cruelty which the Prophet foresaw in his nature would come to passe as you do in your Presbytery which some seeing into the nature of it cannot but prophesie accordingly You know Episcopacy began in meeknesse and Bishops were brought in first for good and for Peace But how proved they Tyranny had ever a countenance of Meeknesse and Love till it got seated in the Throne So Absolon was very faire spoken in the Gate but how was he in the Throne For that of my Dilemma of sin and misery which you say people shall not be put upon it may be some in your or another Classis may find more meeknesse a spirit of more love and ingenuity But what is this to the nature of the Government that some in it are well natured And for that of sin and misery surely if the Presbytery be set on with power many a one will be in that snare partly in feare and partly in an easie complyancy For there are whole Parishes and Counties of this constitution And you your self say The wilfully weak must have the rod. And who will this be Such as are so in the judgement and interpretation of the Classis or how I would this were well cleared And for your Scriptures of 1 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Shall I come to you with a rod c. and in meeknesse instructing c. These are full Scriptures for ordering any Church government These are good Laws but then men must be rightly in Commission for ruling by them and people rightly ordered and disposed for such rules as in all other Laws and Kingdoms But what is this to your purpose till your Government appeare to be all Christs To that of the ignorance of the people which you would have for a reason of expedition rather then susponsion that they may practically know it I answer In practicall godlinesse the Scripture-way is not so Things must first be known before practically known or else the obedience can be but mixt blind and Popish Who can practically obey taking practically in a Scripture-sense that is with knowledge till they know and be perswaded Indeed in things civill c or morall practice may bring in knowledge habits may be acquiâ—ed and gotten by Acts a man may grow temperate by practising temperance and civilly obedient practising civill obedience But it is not so in Spirituals there habits go before acts spirituall infusions before practices And for the amiablenesse of it look into other Reformed Kingdoms and see what power of godlinesse is there by reason of it Do we not see the huge bodies of Nations very sinfull corrupt formall For Scotland our Brethrens preaching and watchfulnesse it may be more powerfull in a Reformation upon them then their Government And further I deny not but a Government of that nature may much reforme the outward man So may a meer prudentiall Government a meer civill Government if
sincerely executed The Romans had a very moral people under their Yoke when their laws were well executed Prelacy and Bishops had a Government which was Antichristian yet by an exact execution could chastise the outward man in some measure For your other reason That my Texts make against not only the suspending for a time but for ever I answer It is true Principles and circumstances considered For if neither the Government be Christs nor the people Nationally a Church when can you settle it And if there be no Gospell-promises that people shall fall in so nationally as the Iews did excepting some that concerne the world in general as Isai 49. 22. then how or when will you settle or what will you settle or upon whom And for the Texts you commend to me for preaching 1 Thes 5. 12. c. they all concern peoples obedience to their Elders and Rulers they are very materiall and pertinent to that And I shall in requitall commend some other backe to you as those of not lording it over the Heritage Against preeminence as helpers of your faith of service and ministery We are your servants we entreat you and beseech you not seeking our own things not for filthy lusre but of a ready mind c. We must consider Scripture must be taken in the wholenesse and entirenesse of it and we must not only mind people of their obedience but Elders and Ministers of their service duty Ministery humility self-deniall c. And thus in a just distribution deale out both to Ministers and people their measure Master Ley's Resolution page 12. Strange that he should plead for a delay in establishing of Reformation from the Covenant wherein we are bound to endeavour it sincerely really c. and more strange under the title of Popery too which in the next Article of Popery is disavowed Reply Not so strange as you make it for we are covenanted to endeavour a setting up the Government not a Government that is as it is expounded in the Article the Government or Reformation according to the Word of God c. not a Government or Reformation of any other sort So as I plead for a delay only in setting up a Discipline not the Discipline or more plainly that the Discipline be such that the covenanters may not violate that Article wherein they are bound to do every thing according to the Word and so prove unfaithfull in their covenant while they are most zealous for it There was such a kind of mistake in the Jews who would have stoned the Lord of the Sabbath in zeale to the Sabbath and following after righteousnesse yet did not attain to the righteousnesse of God And for the title of Popery which I put upon such obedience which you say cannot be because discovered in the next Article of the Covenant I answer The Popery is not in the covenant but in the Interpretations upon it and the mistaken practice of it which is the thing I only aver O! How soon may we be Popish under a Covenant against it What are the maintenance of Ministers by Tythes Jewish and Popish undeniably and yet no notice of this at all I had as great a Tythe once as another but I could not hold it so neither by Covenant nor Gospell Nor do I taxe the Parliament but those who are betrusted to commend Spirituall grievances to their Senate c. Brethren let us lay down these grievances Countries and Famalies are burdened Let not the Ministers have their hooks abroad in every thing of the peoples like Elies sons We know the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Netherlands take their Tythes to maintain their wars and will not let their preachers live by decimation bur by pension And methinks you that professe ingenuity should be so candid to distinguish where you see I distinguish and not to force on constructions of this nature which neither any thing of mine nor the Covenant will beare And for what you say concerning the composers and penners of the Covenant I am willingly silent I would not aggravate any thing against a Brother as you are which might be only a failing in your Pen. Master Ley's Resolution pag. 12 13. For that he saith of peoples implicite obedience c. of their being devoted to any thing the State sets up by Statutes cannot be for these reasons Because as in the former Reason Instruction must go before Because for that of their being devoted it makes against setting up Doctrine as well as Discipline and Authority of Parliament as well as Authority of Ministery They not Ministers make Statutes Reply To your first That instructions must go before I have answered to this before as you expounded it before One word more will suffice What kind of instruction is it you mean but authoritative compulsive instruction such as the Schoolmasters even your own instance and here most pertinent who teaches and whips every one of those that will not understand as well as he Something an unreasonable way of correction in matters of pure beleefe and conscience and best amongst boys as your instance implies Men of Scripture-consciences cannot beare it And for that you say it makes against Doctrine as well as Discipline Yea in some sort it is granted for neither Doctrine nor Discipline ought to be forced but in a Gospell-way And for that you say it makes against the Parliament because they make Statutes I answer Nothing makes against a Legislative power which reduces it to ruder and clearer and free Principles And thus the Parliament very justly argues in all their Remonstrances touching the King while they go about to reduce him to his just Rights from those exorbitances he suffers himselfe to be brought into For instance He that wishes the Parliament might only proceed in a way not grieving the Spirit nor hazzarding the persecution or Truth nor oppressing any Gospell-principle to which they are covenanted not keeping on in any sin of former Parliaments of severe imposing in matters of Religion so controvertible Is not he I say that so wishes a better friend to Parliaments Laws and Statutes then those of contrary Principles Nay I must professe that to me that very one Article of Reforming to the Word of God most providentially inserted is an Article of Caution both against imposing and punishing lest through want of a cleare discerning we be found violaters of that we covenant to maintain and ought to be sadly considered by all Master Ley's Resolution page 12 13. His second reason of experience That the speedy setling c. takes little root but in the outward man c. concluding pathetically Why do not daies speak and multitude of years teach knowledge In answer 1. That the fault was not in over-speedy setling but in the choyce of a wrong Government 2. Because the Doctrine goeth on with Discipline and so the power of the Word may go deep into the conscience as a Schoolmaster who teaches and corrects 3.
is no better then the first 3. Prove the other Reformed Kingdoms to be Reformed Churches as Churches are taken in the Gospel and their Paterns pure Gospel-paterns which by your owne you acknowledge to be in part prudential or humane as well as Evangelical and Divine and then your reason may have some force in it Till then you see with all you can doe you cannot prove but Christs government was divers years in bringing forth by himself and his Apostles and so by your owne account you ought not to be before them unlesse you assume fuller Revelations of truth then they did Let the Reader judge whether any of these makes for the setting up your government or the taking down my reasons To your last That this Reformation hath proceeded by slow paâ—es and degrees What Would you prove it by its slow proceedings to be Christs Government and therefore to be setled That were a strange kind of reasoning Because Christ proceeded by degrees in giving out the glory of his Kingdom here therefore every thing that proceeds by degrees is Christs Government Here is some kind of Logick indeed as you say but no Scripture as for instance He that saies such a one is a living creature saies truly He that saies such a one is a beast saies he is a living creature Therefore will it follow He that saies such a one is a beast saies truly So He that saies Christs Government proceeded slowly saies truly He that saies your government proceeded slowly saies truly Therefore He that saies your government is Christs government saies truly What have you got now by your Logick Whereas you say in your second Christ gave gifts and qualifications for government I answer If you and your Parishes have such gifts and qualifications as in Ephes 4. 1 Cor. 12. set it up when you please if not what haste Master Ley's Resolution Pag. 26 27. Now to his Rules and Considerations of Prudence The more time saith he for trying spirits the lesse danger to that State c. I answer 1. It is the duty of a State not only to try spirits but to rule them And rather to rule them then to trie them Prov. 29. 15. and the longer they live without the yoke of Discipline the more enormous And for trying all things there is a due proportion of time to be observed Though it hath been the ill hap of our Chureh c. to have the government fluttering on the lime twig at Westminster when it should be on the wing of actuall execution all over the Kingdom 2. He makes it a dangerous matter for the State to involve it selfe into the designes of Ecclesiasticall power But unseasonably applyed to Presbyteriall-government because both Popish and prelaticall power is abjured by it by covenant 3. Whereas he saith There can be no danger in the not too sudden incorporating c. since Moses is not alive c. a new star may arise It is a groundlesse conceit refuted already and for that of Moses c. he bâ—wrayeth his designe to debarre the government for ever and for that of a new star arising it prepares the way for some Barchochebas who pretending to be Jacobs Star mislead the Jews and was called Benchozba the son of a lye Reply You prove against me 1. That people ought to be ruled rather then tried c. 2. That sometime is to be allowed for triall 3. That the government hath been fluttering too long at Westminster 4. That there is no danger to feare the Presbyteriall government which hath abjured Popery c. Dominion by Covenant 5. That some of this is refuted already 6. That my designe is to debarre it for evâ—â— 7. That a new Star is a misleading star To your first I reply It is true in civill government rule there rather then trie But what is that to Church-government or Discipline The rule there is the will of God which is the only rule in government and legislative power in the Church and that is Trie all things before either you rule or be ruled To your second Some time you will allow I see for triall but you ought not to measure and deale out time but by the Standard of the Word and before you call for such quick obedience as you do and as the Apostles did prove your power and truth and conclusions and by such Apostolicall and infallible evidence and then it is our sin if we submit not And let the time you deale out not be like that of States and Armies in their Treaties who are finall and peremptory in the seasons they set You cannot set such time the Spirit breaths when and were it listeth To your third What is that to the present Discipline what the Covenant abjures Covenant and Discipline are two distinct things a Covenant may abjure in word what yet a government may practice indeed Nor is it enough to abjure Popery in grosse but in every part parcell And now having abjured it is not enough to sit down in that satisfaction that we have sworn against Popery but to search out lest we be forsworn in the practice of it Such a duty begins from the time of abjuring and it lies not only upon the State to find out Popery but every one in his own particular is ingaged you and I and every Covenanter and therefore seeing you have ingaged thousands by conscience against Popery and to endeavour c. you are bound to give the same conscience liberty to bring in its result and enquiry else you make it a snare and trouble to Israel and not a Covenant And now I professe here a just and undeniable liberty by Covenant to bring forth all of Popery Prelacy or truth they know To your other Why should ye speak of governments fluttering on a lime-twig at Westminster Sure the State or Parliament may deserve better of any of the Assembly then to be thought their retarders or lâ—me twigs How have they honoured them above their Brethren printing their ingagements to the world before every Sermon calling them into so neere a capacity with themselves though Divines have been unfortunate before and their Predecessours raised in the curtesie and piety of former States and Parliaments into a Law and power above their Brethren which I hope our Brethren will remember and beware of But because I would not wholly interpret you into so dangerous a sense against the State it may be you may call your dissenting Brethren the lime-twig which if you do you are contrary to your own Argument for you argued but lately the slow proceeding into a very warrantable and Scripture-way and will you now marâ—all and defile your Argument with a lime-twig and bewray rather your slow proceeding to have been of constraint then conscience To your other That this is already refuted I say no more but as you have formerly refuted so I have formerly answered To your other That my designe by that of Moses is to
receive not New Lights Whimsies Errours 19. The Prelates laboured to scandalize their Non-conforming Brethren with Nick-names c. Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now accordingly labour to make their Non-conforming Brethren vile and scandalous to the Kingdome Ezek. 18 2. Thus the Fathers have eaten sowre grapes and the childrens teeth are set on edge Thus if we would compare crimes and times we might write and speak Quaere Whether M. Edwards in reekoning up divers things for Errors hath not much aspersed his owne Brethren Doctor Twisse M. Gattaker and many others in many Doctrinall points they hold The Testimony of M. Samuel Rutherford one of the Scotch Commâ—ssioners in the last Page of his Epistle to the Reader in his Booke Intituled The Divine Right of Church-Government and Excommunication No incroaching on Christs Prerogative BUt it is a Controversie say some whether the Government of the Church of the New Testament belong to the Magistrate or to the Church To which I say 1. It was a controversie created by men willing to please Princes with more power in the Courts of Christ then ever the Lawgiver and Apostles gave them and that against the minde of glorious Lights the first Reformers and the whole Troop of Protestant Divines who studied the Controversie against the usurped Monarchy of the man of sin more exactly then one Physitian who in a cursory way diverted off his Road of Medicine of which he wrote learnedly and broke in on the by upon the deepest Polemicks of diyinity and reached a riders blow unawares to his Friends 2. In things doubtfull conscience hath refuge to the surest side Now it s granted by all and not controverted by any that in the Apostolike Church the government of the Church of the New Testament was in the hands of Apostles Pastors Teachers and therefore Conscience would sway to that in which there can be no Error except on supposall of abuse and Christian Rulers would not doe well to venture upon Eternity wrath the judgement to come confiding on the poore plea of an Erastian distinction to incroach upon the Prerogative Royall of Jesus Christ FINIS THese Reasons tending not only to the sweetning of the TWO KINGDOMES England and Scotland the Parliament and Dissenting Brethren on both sides in the Assembly each to other but also to the preserving a Just Liberty for them all respectively I commend to the Presse March 30. 1646. IOHN BACHILER THE DIVINE RIGHT OF PRESBYTERY Asserted by the present Assembly and Petitioned for accordingly to the Honourable House of Commons in PARLIAMENT With REASONS Discussing this pretended Divine-Right and yet with tendernesse to the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way Pleading for a Liberty of Conscience for them in this their Opinion as for others of their Dissenting Brethren and equally for both With Inferences upon their late PETITION By John Saltmarsh Preacher of the Gospell Rev 2. 2. Thou hast tried those that say they are Apostles but are not LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. To those Brethren of the Assembly of Divines Petitioners who are for the pretended Divine Right of the present PRESBYTERY BRETHREN Meeting ye but of the Assembly or that bounder appointed ye by Parâ— I cannot justly be denied this reasoning with ye for the Ordinance by which ye sit doth enable ye only to advise of things propounded but not to propound or demand any as ye have done of late so as in this ye have brought your selves down to the same magnitude with us that are private men Here is the difference now Ye are many of better parts and abilities I am as one borne out of duetime yet the same Covenant is upon me with your selves nor ought I because I am but one presume to see Truth more then one because ye are many Nay it is that voyce from the excellent glory which both you and I must heare and which can only teach us Truth It is not the voyce of any other And surely since Truth hath had its lot in the world to lâ—ve upon voyces in Assemblies and Synods where that is only Truth which is voted so and not in its own glory and evidence where that is only Truth which is so The Mystery of iniquity hath been more advanced then the Mystery of godlinesse THE DIVINE RIGHT Of Presbytery c. With Reasons discussing this pretended DIVINE RIGHT FIrst They who are the Presbyters in this present Presbytery pretend to be Presbyters by a power of Ordination from Bishops as the Bishops were Presbyters and if so they are to make it appeare that there is a true personall succession of Ministery from the Apostles and that they doe lineally succeed without interruption for in succession unlesse there be a certain perpetuall and personall derivation of power there can be no certainty nor infallibility of the truth of such a power and whether the proof of this drawes not with it a necessary and perpetuall visibility of a Church contrary to the opinion of all the Reformed Divines and further a truth of Church-Ministery and Ordinances of Jesus Christ in the Antichristian State from whence this Ministery of theirs comes by which they stand present Presbyters and how any true Ministery can be found in that very Antichristian State which is called the man of sin the mystery of iniquity the Whore of Babylon the falling away and how the same State can be both meerly Antichristian and Christian a Whore of Babylon and a Spouse of Iesus Christ a Ministery of God and a mystery of iniquity a Temple of God and of Idols I leave it to be judged 2. That these present pretended-Presbyters cannot be found true Presbyters but by such a personall and successively derived power will appeare from their present Modell of Ordination they allowing and accounting none for Presbyters or Ministers but such as are sent out by their personall Ordination or were formerly ordained by Bishops so as they make these and these must make others and thus their power is derived from a personall and lineall succession and demonstratively proved from their owne practice nor will it help them that Iesus Christ alwayes had a Church or some invisible Saints under Antichrist because they must both prove themselves and the Episcopall Ministery to succeed that very Church or those very invisible Saints and that that Church or those very Saints were Presbyters or Ministers for we know men may be Saints but not sent or ministerially Saints sent good men but not good Presbyters as in their owne way of practice will more appeare for if any should now call himself a true Presbyter or Minister he must prove his sending to them by a personall Ordination which proof of their Ordination we demand from them as they would doe now from any others 3. How these things can stand together That the Divine Right is in the Congregationall Presbytery as they
in one and the same Kingdom would be considered when such an Interest growâ—s up from its infancy and first Reformation into a fuller and more perfect man And whether their petitioning of a power from the State to compleat and make them an Eldership and Presbytery doth not imply a power in the State more or rather as fully Ecclesiasticall as their Presbytery for can the State give them any Ecclesiasticall power and have none it selfe so as according to these Principles the State is Ecclesiastical as well as they and so not to be denied the power of Commissioning with them or else t is a meere contradiction to pray for power from those to their Eldership and Presbytery which they say is a Government and Power entirely Ecclesiasticall and compleat in it selfe and so as they either pray for that which they have of their own already or else pray for that from the State which they cannot give them Petition It belongs unto them by Divine Right and by the Will and appointment of Jesus Christ which with the help of superiour Assemblies in cases of appeale or in all administrations therein will prevent through the blessing of God all the feared inconveniences Inference Whence we may infer that the Presbytery and Eldership of a Congregation is of Divine Right c. yet that Divine Right is perfected and compleated by that which is not of as pure Divine Right as it selfe viz. Superiour Assemblies and so becomes neither purely Prudentiall nor Divine but Mixt and so is neither good Divine nor good Humane Right Petition And the Magistrate to whom we professe the Church to be accountable for their proceedings in all their Elderships and Church Assemblies and punishable by him with Civill censures for their miscarriages Inference Whence we may inferre that the Civill Magistrate is neither over nor under the Presbytery and where they place it who can tell by this Petition of theirs for over it the Magistrate is not for they say Commissioners over them are not sufferable and under it they say the Magistrate is not for their Eldership and Presbytery are to be accountable to the Civill power for their miscarriages and how at the same time they should subject their Churches in their mal Administrations to the Magistrates power of judging and yet challenge such an entire sole supreame and Ecclesiasticall Judicature is a mystery becomming the learning of that same Assembly to reveale which first begun it Principles against the Divine Right o◠〈…〉 present Presbytery extracted from the Reasons 1. THey are no such Presbyters of Jesus Christ as the first were because ordained by an Antichristian power of Bishops nor were Bishops true Presbyteres nor those who joyned with them in their Ordination who were made by them nor is there any succession of Ordination but it implies both a Perpetuall Visible Church and a true Church Ministery and Ordinances under Antichrist which all are to be proved by them 2. If there were any such true Church invisible under Antichrist to which they succeed in their Ministery then it must appeare that they succeed that very invisible Church and that that very invisible Church had a true Ministery or Presbytery in it for men may be Saints or good men yet not good Presbyters or Ministerially sent 3. As they now in their practice will not account any for true Presbyters but such who can prove to them their personall Ordination from them so we demand of these Presbyters an account of their personall succession accordingly which personall succession if it be false and interrupted any where in the Line must needs be all false from such a point where the first interruption was made 4. Though Christs promise is enough to ground a perpetuity of Church and Christs presence yet not of his promise made good to such particular men or to their pretended succession 5. They that challenge a Divine Right to the power they act by must act by a gift as Divine and infallible as their right and power and thus did the primitive Presbyters and Elders therefore the gift being but mixt their right or power is but mixt accordingly and not Divine 6. They who were Elders or Presbyters in the first Churches as Ierusalem c. were gifted by a spirit which taught the very infallible Word which is now written or Scripture and so they then did constitute advise counsell in the place of this written Word and all Scripture Formes and Institutions were then in the gift and persons but no such thing can be said of any Eldership or Presbytery of men now 7. They who set up an Eldership or Presbytery now of Divine Right to constitute ordaine counsell c. do joyne to the Word written or infallible Scripture a Power lesse infallibly gifted who by such a Divine Right and Power pretended shall controle the Word of Truth by Interpretations of that Word lesse then Truth which is not consistent with the glory of the Word 8. There is no Eldership or Presbytery in Scripture but either the Churches Act did precede it act it or accompany it by precept or practice which makes the Divine Right of the Presbytery questionable uncertain unsafe because of a contrary Scripture and Precept 9. The Eldership and Presbytery which are brought for instances are questionable first for the Persons who were not such very Presbyters as they would imply but Apostles Evangelists c. or otherwise ordained either by Apostles or Church or otherwise gifted by speciall unction or else an Eldership of eminency not of Office 10. They hold this Divine Right is in the first subject in the Congregationall Presbytery and yet they set up a Classicall Provinciall Nationall Presbytery to compleat and controle this of the Congregationall and how this their Divine Right can be subjected thus to a Right lesse Divine is unreasonable and unscripturall to imagine 11. Suppose such a power as a Nationall Presbytery collected from all parts of the Kingdom every Congregation having an Interest or part there and this Presbytery so Nationall and Collective informed by a Divine Right for judging sins c. shall not this Nationall Presbytery take cognizance of States if sinning Ecclesiastically as well as others and if so what proceeding what cenâ—ures will follow from such a body as universall as the body of that State and of as much Interest in the Kingdom as they and of more interest by how much more Divine a Right they act by and by how much neerer they are seated to the conscience and how Kingdoms have been embroyled by such an Ecclesiasticall Interest Histories will tell ye 12. So as in this straite when Parliament is perswaded of no Divine Right Assembly of a Divine Right and the Dissenting brethren of another Divine Right is not the way this to let the Parliament have their Liberty of Conscience to settle no Divine Right by a power and the Assembly to use their Liberty in a Divine Right with all that
will peaceably joyne with them in the Kingdom under that Power and not to trouble the Magistrate further and the other Brethren as peaceably to enjoy their other Divine Right as the Brethren of the Presbyteriall way theirs and all alike under the same Civill Power and neither of them with it and all other Reformed Kingdomes in unity of the Spirit and love to one another Principles destructive to their present Petition extracted from the Inferences 1. The Presbytery now not so distinct in gifts and office but the Magistrate may rule with them THe Eldership and Presbytery in the primitive Churches had a spirit anointing them to such Administrations but now as the anointing is not so nor is the Office pure peculiar and distinct the Magistrates and Parliament have gifts as spirituall as there are any now in the pretended Presbytery and may therfore as well put forth a Power in their Churches or Congregations as they unlesse their Churches Officers and Gifts were more Christs then they are 2. The Magistrate may better rule then the Eldership or present Presbytery The Magistrate is unquestionably a power of God and the present Presbytery are Officers questionable in their Offices Gifts c. Therefore the Magistrate may more lawfully put forth a Power coercive to sin then they 3. Vniformity in the Word of God is the Vniformity of Churchâ—â— They that presse the Covenant for Vniformity so penally as they do make it a snare of compulsion not in the Word of it but in their Interpretation of that Word unity in the Spirit makes up the want of Uniformity in the Letter Kingdoms are to be no more compelled to Vniformity in Laws Ecclesiasticall then in Civill but may walke together as Beleevers so far as they have attained that clause according to the Word of God makes roome for the severall statures of Christ and measures of light in the Covenant and they that agree in that are truly Vniforme for it is the Vniformity with the Word not with one another but so far as we are all alike in that Word which is the very Vniformity of the Kingdom of Christ 4. The Magistrate as they now make him is Ecclesiasticall as well as they They that ascribe a Power to any to compleat and actuate them in their Ministration do acknowledge that very Power by which they are informed to be in those that so informe and compleat them so as the very Petitioning a State for Power and qualification for Eldership and Presbytery doth imply a Presbyteriall and Ecclesiasticall Power in that State and if so the Magistrate may as well govern in that Church as any ruling Officer they have 5. The present Presbytery in mystery both over and under the Magistrate They that are a Magistracy neither over nor under the Presbytery tell me in what spheare or where rule they for over it they are not Commissioners they say are contrary to the Word and under it they are not for their Presbytery is accountable as they say unto â—â— so as they who are so much in the dark with their Government do with Magistracy they know not what and would place it they know not where The Position being a safer way for the Magistrate then the Erastian and how the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot justly exclude him from ruling with them according to the present constitution both of the pretended Church and Presbytery THat the Magistrate or Parliament cannot be excluded from Government in this present Presbytery as the present Assembly would exclude them because this Kingdom of England is not a Church in Gospell-order but a Kingdom of Beleevers in generall and because their present Presbyters and Elders are no true Presbyters of Jesus Christ according to Gospell-order and till both this Nationall Church and Officers be that very Kingdom of Christ and those very Officers of Christ the Magistrate may as lawfully yea more lawfully rule then any other pretended Officer Minister or Elder amongst them for Magistrates have the whole Kingdome of the world allowed them from God for their place of Government And this Kingdom of England being but a Kingdom or world of Beleevers not a Church they may as they are powers of God rule amongst them Jesus Christ being only King and head in that Church or Kingdom which is more his own and the Magistrates Kings for him in that Kingdom which is the worlds or lesse his own so as the Presbyteriall Brethren cannot exclude the Civil power from governing with them according to the unsound constitution of their Church Ministers and Elders nor till they have proved the truth both of their very Church Ministery and Eldership for all Scripture proofes of Eldership and Presbytery is respective to the true Presbytery and Eldership according to Truth not to every pretended Presbytery and Eldership of the Nations so as till the very Constituting Principles of Presbytery be proved â—â—ue no Scripture either alleadged for Presbytery belongs to them nor any other by which they would exclude the Magistrate as from the Church of Christ Conclusion These few things I have writ to draw forth the strength of others in a thing of this Nature which is of high concernment in the things of Gospell-order as any point now abroad for surely it is not a Vniversity a Cambridge or Oxford a Pulpii and Blacke gowne or Cloake makes one a true Minister of Iesus Christ though these are the best things in the composition of some the Mystery of Iniquity hath deceived the world with a False and Artificiall unction for that true one of the Spirit and the Ministery hath beene so cloathed with Art and Habit that if the Apostles should live again and preach in that plainnesse they came they would be as despised for we wonder after the Wise the Scribe and the Disputer of this World FINIS An End of ONE CONTROVERSIE BEING An Answer or Letter to Master Ley's large last BOOKE called LIGHT FOR SMOKE One of the Assembly at WESTMINSTER Which he writ lately against me In which the Summe of his last Booke which relates to the most materiall Passages in it is gathered up and replied to By Iohn Saltmarsh not revolted as Master Ley saith from a Pastorall Calling but departed from the Antichristian Ministery by Bishops and now a Preacher of the Gospell Isa 5. 20. Woe be to them that put darknesse for light Acts 19. 32. Some therefore cried one thing and some another for the Assembly was confused and the most part knew not wherfore they were come together Ver. 41. And when he had spoken this he dismissed the Assembly LONDON Printed for Giles Calvert at the Black Spread-Eagle at the West end of PAULS 1646. THE Law of Nature giving a man leave to speake fairely in his owne just defence and the Law of Grace requiring him to speake zealously in the defence of Truth I thinke it equall that this answer to Mr Ley should be printed April 15. 1646. John Bachiler The LETTER
godlinesse Whether all your Fastings and Repentance were from true meltings of heart sound humiliation or because the State called for it and constrained it Whether your praying and preaching was not much of it Self of Invention of Parts of Art of Learning of seeking praise from man Oh should the light of the Spirit come in clearnesse and glory upon your spirit Oh! how much of Self of Hypocrisie of Vanity of Flesh of Corruption would appeare how would all be unprofitable For my part I cannot be so uncharitable but to wish you a better assurance then what you and your Brethren can find in your own works or righteousnesse For it is not what we approve but what God approves is accepted And I am perswaded however you are now loth it may be to lose reputation by going out of an old track of Divinity as Luther once yet when once your spirit begins to be unclothed of forms of darknesse and art of self-righteousnesse and that you with open face behold the glory of the Lord you will cry out Wo is me I am undone for I have seen the Lord and Lord depart from me for I am a sinfull creature and What went I out to see My owne unrighteousnesse or rather A Reed shaken with the winde An Answer to a Book intituled A Plea for Congregationall Government or A Defence of the Assemblies Petition c. YOu write thus 1 That the independents confesse you a true Church and Minstery 2 Those that are ordained by Bishops may be true Ministers else how am I a Preacher or they true Ministers 3 Succession is not necessary to the essence of a true Ministery 4 If no true Ministery no true Baptisme 5 Must not there be persons ordaining and persons ordained And so the dissenting Brethren hold 6 That you abuse the Assembly in citing their Humble Advice touching the Divine Right of a Congregationall Presbyteriall and not of the other The Independents assort a Divine Right there and in Synods too as they do They hold a Divine Right in one as well as the other 7 Their ordination by Bishops though it should be null yet they have all you can alleadge necessary to a Preacher 8 Parishes here are but as in New-England as in Jerusalem Antioch 9 Some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods an holy Ordinance of God and this Assembly so to be 10 If no Presbyteries must be of Divine Right because not infallibly gifted this concludes against Presbyteries and Ordinances 11 If you would have them content with a mixed power partly prudentiall because of their mixt dnointing you contradict that pure one you plead for 12 The Apostles and Elders and Angels of the Churches of Asia were not infallible as in divers practices 13 To say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word is little lesse then Blasphemy 14 The Presbyterians in France and Scotland and the Netherlands do not so imbroyle Kingdoms The feare of excommunicating Parliaments and Kingdoms is but a Bugbeare 15 They aske not of the State an Ecclesiasticall-power but a liberty to exercise that power 16 Hath Christâ— said that in a sound Church Church-Officers shall excommunicate and in an nnsound the Magistrate shall do it 17 He may in time say as much against Equity and justice living upon voyces in Assemblies as against Truth Answer To the first That the Independents confesse you a true Chruch and Ministery You are not to prove what others confesse or hold you to be but what you are indeed according to Truth Nor do I contend with those that hold you so but with you that hold your selves so as the Spirit to the Laodiceans Thou sayest thou art full c. and behold thou art poore c. To the second That they ordained by Bishops are true Ministers as the Independents and I a Preacher for all that Ordination If you meane that the Bishops Ordination makes not one for ever a false or Antichristian Minister I grant it because it is no marke to them that renounce it Babylon is no more Babylon to them that are gone out of it But what is this to your Ministery or Ordination who are yet under the Marke and Babylonish Ordination Renounce it come out as the Spirit cals ye and then your being Antichristian is no more to ye then to the Ephesians that they should be lesse light because they were once darknesse or lesse alive because they were once dead To the third That Succession is not necessary to a true Ministery It is both true and false in severall acceptions When there was a true power they ordained others and others them There was succession But that being lost under Antichrist so far as visibly to derive it to us there can be no such true visible Succession appearing And yet you that pretend to stand by the first power must prove your Succession if you will prove your power To the Fourth If no true Ministery no true Baptism For that as you please I dare not exalt the truth of your Baptism above that of your Ministery no more then you To the Fifth The dissenting Brethren hold there must be persons ordaining and ordained as well as we Yeâ— but do they hold Bishops ordaining and Presbyters ordained by Bishops and Presbyters of their ordaining ordaining others as you do To the Sixth of my unjust citing the Assemblies Modell or Humble Advice and that there is no more Divine Right asserted in the Congregationall Presbytery then in the Classicall c. which is done so by the dissenting Brethren I answer Let the Modell be printed to the world to end the difference betwixt you and me And for the Divine Right of the one and the other I am of your mind they are able to prove both alike of Divine Right that is in their Presbytery The one is no more of Divine Right then the other and neither of them of any And for the dissenting Brethren it is not them but you I deale with Why come you under their shadow in a storme and yet will let them have no liberty under yours but would turne us all abroad as Hereticks and Schismaticks To the Seventh Though the Ordination by Bishops be null yet they have the other necessaries to a Preacher Will ye undertake for the Assembly they shall stand to this that all their former Ordination by Bishops is null If so we are agreed if not all their other necessaries are no more then Ahabs peace What peace saith Jehu so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Iezebell are alive So what Ministery so long as the whoredoms of Babylon yet remaine To the Eighth That the Parishes are but as in New-England as in Ierusalem c. I pray forbeare this it is too manifest an errour Are the Parishes of England and Churches of Ierusalm one and the same so discipled so constituted Were all of Ierusalem and Antioch reckoned for Christs Congregations as all Parishes are To the Ninth
in the Church And for our plucking it is not plucking but gathering and calling out Your words are of more violence then the Word will beare that is more properly plucking which is a destructive pulling out a bloudy Separation a plucking of Persecution such a plucking as some contend for and would requite our gathering with plucking and take us all not for a mixture of Tares and Wheat but all for Tares You say we gather out the Wheat it is well you observe that we have Wheat amongst us which some of your Brethren will searce allow us and you very hardly Master Ley's Resolution pag. 29 30 31. His other politike consideration is this Our Parties or dissenting Brethren now together and clasped by Interest c. I answer 1. No clasping in the Camp must loose us to division in the Citie 2. Mr. Saltmarsh in his Politike adviseth to represse factions c. 3. The delay hath occasioned a multiplication of Heresies and Schisms 4. Many disposed to division heighten their spirits to contumacie and contempt To that other of his it is possible while time is given opinions may be sooner at peace I answer 1. Possibility is no pleae against probability nay cleare experience that by the Brethrens amiable carriage they have driven on their designe with a politike activitie and gained more by their adversaries slownesse than the goodnesse of their cause To that of his Fire let alone under wood and so to dye out c. I answer 1. Will fire under drie wood quench it selfe or the setling of a Government be as the Bellows 2. The contrarie is plaine by examples of Anabaptists and other Sectaries in Germany whom Luther at first mediated for with Frederick Duke of Saxony but after he was glad to stir up the Princes and people of Germany for extinguishing a common combustion To that of his c. The contentions of Brethren are like the Bars of a Caestle Prov. 18. 19. I answer 1. This is his seale to his politike Aphorisaâ— But will the bars of a Caestle be taken by letting alone We have not found it so in our wars c. Reply To your first That we must not claspe in the Camp and divide in the city You say well we are to agree or clasp both in Camp and Citie and to divide in neither To your second Mr. Saltmarsh in his Politikes I told you before I dare not allow my selfe the priviledge of an Aphorism of light then when it was rather night than day with me as I told you You know Pauls regenerate part or law of his mind quarrelled with the law of his Members so doth mine so Luther Augustine c. To that of delaying occasioning Heresies Whether may not your setling things thus be as great an Heresie as you complaine against Be sparing You may call these Truths which you now call Heresies Paul preached that Doctrine after which before he destroyed To that of many heightning their spirits into contempt Do not aggravate against your Brethren remember your own professed ingenuity in these words I would not excite Authority to needlesse severitie To that of the Brethrens politike advantage on your slow pace and amicable carriage as you say Give not over your amicablenesse for that their policie is no warrant against your dutie and if they be politike blame them in print For my part I hate to see in any too much of man in the businesse of God but if some of the Brethren be politike what is that to the rest who waite for the Spirit in the simplicity of their own But it may be you mistake the advantages and put their encreasing upon Brethrens policie which is the power of the Gospell You know in Christs time many beleeved on him and the people went after him and yet not policie but his power gathered them To that of your fire and drie wood and that your setling a Government would be no bellows Who are the dry wood you meane and what fire and what by the bellows I fit be this that the setling a Government will quench our contentions yea and it may quench more then it ought even something of the Spirit may be quenched by it Persecution may put out many a Candle of the Lords lighting and many a coale kindled from his Altar But take heed there be not more fire in the bellows then in the wood To that of the Anabaptists and Sectaries quenched by Luthers mediation I dare not beleeve your Historian nor take all against them from the Pen of an enemie He that takes the Parliaments battells from an Oxford Pen shall read nothing but Rebellion rather than Religion And me thinks I observe much here in your observation to the contrary We may rather think that Germany is a field of bloud to this day for shedding the bloud of so many consciences for some points of difference And for Luthers mediation against them Look well and tell me how much the Lutheran there have advanced in the Reformation Have they not rather stood like Joshua's Sun where he left them Let England take warning by Germany To that of the Brethrens contentions which are like bars of a Castle and must not then be let alone you say as in our Wars Yea go on take these offended Brethren these Castles in your military way but then let your Warfare be spirituall your weapons not carnall put on the armour of light c. and take them by a Gospel-siege and we are satisfied But it you take them with the power of the Magistrate with swords and staves as they took Christ if you come in this Gospel-Controversie to to take them as the Parliament takes in their Towns and Cities by force of Arms and compulsive Artillery as your instance seems to imply take heed lest you shed more spirituall bloud to that under the Altar that never ceases to cry How long Lord how long Master Ley's Resolution Page 32. To that he saith We have not yet any experience of our new Clergy Answ How can there bee experience of them if there be no government to try them withall Reply So as you will have an hazard run both in State and Church for a new experiment upon the Ministers but sure your Statists will tell you it is not safe trying experiments with State they are too vast bodies for that What thinke you of that Physician that will cast his Patent into a disease to try a cure on him You know the old morall adagie Turpius ejicitur quam non admittitur hospes One is sooner kept out then cast out Master Ley's Resolution Page 32. To that It is not safe trusting a power too far into those hands Answer He need not much feare the government will be so qualified so disposed for the persons that manage it c. Reply These are faire promises It is pitty that government should ever be set up that cannot tell before hand how well it will carry it selfe Oh I