Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	answer_v	argument_n	prove_v	3,101	5	5.5305	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10609	A remonstrance: or plaine detection of some of the faults and hideous sores of such sillie syllogismes and impertinent allegations, as out of sundrie factious pamphlets and rhapsodies, are cobled vp together in a booke, entituled, A demonstration of discipline wherein also, the true state of the controuersie of most of the points in variance, is (by the way) declared.	Sutcliffe, Matthew, 1550?-1629, attributed name.	1590 (1590)	STC 20881; ESTC S115774	171,783	224

handes or the censures of the Church inflicted in or since the Apostles time by or vnder the authoritie of those that themselues are no ministers but in all other respectes are meere lay men and but annuall or biennall officers in the Church If they cannot shewe it let them for euer hereafter holde their peace and confesse it to bee in trueth a deuise of mans braine which they woulde seeme so much to detest in Church gouernment The 1. Demonstration That which our Sauiour Christ refused ruling and gouerning the Church Demonstration and teaching the Church that is not lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person to doe but Christ refused to diuide the inheritance Luk. 12.14 Ergo Ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill matters The syllogisme is to be concluded newe againe Remonstrance here are foure termini foure termes in three quarters of a yeere One conclusion is Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill causes another should be Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not diuide lande or inheritance Amphor a caepit institui currente rota sic vrceus exit To the Maior The Maior is to be denied all that our Sauiour refused euery of vs may not refuse he because he came to be a mediatour betweene God and man would not become a common diuider and iudge of euery secular cause of title of land who made me c. neither my heauenly father sent me to that end neither haue I commission from thy brother to sende thee into the moietie of the possession Besides if he had intermedled in the matters of the common weale it would haue strengthened the conceipte that he sought an earthly kingdome and to dispossesse the Romanes To reason from Christes refusal is the refuse of all good reason à non facto ad ius Christ woulde not or did not answere Pilate in iudgement must we therefore conclude Ergo at the tribunall of a Iudge it is at our discretion to answere or not to speake Christ did not condemne the woman taken in the acte of adulterie shall not therefore officers Ecclesiasticall condemne any such sinner To the Minor Christ refused to diuide the inheritance it was because hee woulde not vse the authoritie that hee had as Lorde of Heauen and earth when he came as a seruant not because either a Christian magistrate or minister shoulde after his example lay aside all authoritie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 who hath appointed me emplieth rather that if he had bene appointed by both the parties he might haue done it and so may any minister arbitrate and compounde a controuersie ciuill that is committed vnto him If any Christians may be iudges of ciuill matters 1. Cor. 6. why may not some ministers in some ciuill matters If then hee may whome the Church appointeth nay whome two priuate men consent vpon though he be a person ecclesiasticall may not the Christian Soueraigne Prince much more commit a ciuill cause vnto them and they lawfully deale in it Or if it will be saide they may not so deale in causes ciuill delegated vnto them is then the sinne hereof in him who delegateth or who is delegated or in both But I neede not wade further into this matter I haue spoken something to it afore More authoritie ciuill then is delegated vnto them no Byshop hath may haue or doeth claime in this Realme and therefore except they will impugne this point their labour is superfluous By the way I will propounde this vnto them If all ciuill rule and authoritie bee denied to persons Ecclesiasticall as in it selfe impious howe may they rule their wiues children and housholde which is oeconomicall power and therefore ciuill as ciuill is opposite to ecclesiasticall Likewise howe may they cast their accompts receiue their rentes c. Nay when they are rubbed with their laye Elders and can no where finde them then they say they are not lay but Ecclesiasticall persons because they haue imposition of handes If they bee therefore so to bee accompted Countrey poyson then howe may they lawfully euen in the yeere of their Eldership be also ciuill magistrates as Sheriffes Iustices of peace maisters of their companies counsellours Syndicks and what not though most ciuill as dayly experience teacheth where that discipline is in vre Belike their assertions and rules are made onely against byshoppes not against themselues The 2. Demonstration That which was forbidden to the Apostles Demonstration is vnlawful for ecclesiastical officers but such dominiō was forbiddē Luk. 22.28 which is to rule ciuilly Ergo. That which was forbidden c. is vnlawfull Remonstrance But ambition tyranny contention for absolute seigneurial and ciuil authoritie was forbidden not a modest either ciuill or ecclesiastical superiority ergo to be ambitious contentious c. is vnlawfull In that here he applieth that of Luke to ciuill rule hee cleareth our Bishoppes from the daunger of it in exercising anie authoritie Ecclesiasticall This Argument is answered before The 3. Demonstration If necessarie dueties are to bee left rather then our duetie in the Church Demonstration then may not a Church-officer deale in ciuill iurisdiction but the former is true for a man may not burie his father Luc. 6.59 Ergo I denie the sequele of the Antecedent Remonstrance albeit some corporall or bodily offices which duetie biddeth to be done may vpon Christes commaundement be left vndone yet this is no barre to ministers and preachers of the Gospel to deale in any necessarie ciuill cause And how is it proued that no ciuill iurisdiction may stand with doing of his Church duetie There is none of themselues but they can be content to be executors to a wealthy widow or such like being no more afraid of it then they are to burie them To the Assumption Your quotation should be the 9. of Luke the meaning of which place is All Christians must lay aside all impedimentes and hinderaunces that may drawe them from comming to Christ but some ciuill authoritie amongst Christians is rather a furtherance What consequence cal ye this A man may not bury his own father rather then not follow Christ or if Christ otherwise encharge him Ergo a minister that liueth in a Christian common wealth may not lawfully haue a branch of commission from the prince for ciuil iurisdiction The 4. Demonstration If he that hath an office must attend on his office Demonstration then may hee not intermeddle with another office But the first is true Rom. 12.7 Ergo not with ciuill iurisdiction He may not intermeddle without lawfull calling or vocation Remonstrance yet the connexion hath no sequele Doe you not see some that haue two offices looke neere inough to both This will roaue at temporall men as well as at ecclesiasticall S. Paul disputeth of diligence in our function not of diuersitie of functions which diuerse functions may concurre in one See the answere to the first thus I retort against your selues He that

continuance in the Gospel let it stand to the worldes end if not quid dignum tanto feret hic promissor hiatu To the Minor The madde sicknesse of your reason and disproportion appeareth in the answere there There is no correspondence of any eldership either to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the greater number of 70. or of the 23. which is said to be the lesse which do you challenge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speake plainely if you dare or else the reason will retire vpon you thus That gouernment which neuer was vnder law or Gospel Retortion for essence or accidence of Church pollicie may not be continued or begun in the Church The eldership fancied ouer men matters hath neither originall of time nor priuiledge of authoritie Ergo the golden eldership may not begin or continue in the Church The 12. Demonstration If this eldership be alterable being once setled Demonstration either it is in respect of the extraordinary offices ceassed or of the addition of the magistrate Not the first for if the Church doeth neede God doth euer giue giftes extraordinary nor the secōd for the magistrate is to defēd the building of the church Ergo. You might haue saued your paines in the antecedent Remonstrance for alteration foloweth or succeedeth that which was and doth not succeede that which is not That which neuer was in the church admitteth no alteration no more then Tragelapsus or Hyppocentaurus or the man in the moone if you wil haue an issue in the question let it be this where a Christian magistrate is there needeth no eldership it is ex super abundanti and where it wanteth God also hath other wayes then by such mixture of offices to gouerne the church But thus I retort To euery institution of his that hath neede Gods sends gifts extraordinary To your elders that want ordinary giftes fitte for so great gouernment hee sendeth no gift extraordinary Ergo your Eldership is not his institution The 13. Demonstration Either this is the best gouernment and perpetuall or none at all Demonstration but some gouernment must be the best and perpetuall Ergo this is perpetuall This is handsomely concluded this is best and worst Remonstrance or none at all better none at all then neuer a whit the better better nothing then this Anarchicall or tumultuarie gouernment vnlesse perchance you holde praestat malè esse quàm non esse But there is a Christian ecclesiasticall gouernment already though you will not see it Christ in the middest of vs though some do not know it You must proue your disiunctiue Maior a litter better The 14. Demonstration Demonstrat Cofes Helue Tig. Ber. Gen. Pol. Hu. Scot. Horm Cap. 8. No man may iustly forbid de to returne to the olde constitution of the Church of God If you proue this to be the olde and the institution to be for a perpetuitie then this olde constitution is the best Remonstrat The 15. Demonstration Experience teacheth this order was not for one but necessary for all ages Demonstrat Caluin inst lib. 4. cap. 3. sect 8. It is certaine that experience proueth it not so necessarie nor profitable for else the Apostles would not haue instituted and al succeeding ages followed so diuers an order of Church gouernmēt by Byshops which Zanchus thinketh was of the holy Ghost The 16. Demonstration Though the common wealth change her gouernment Demonstra P. Mar. 3. Rom the Church must keepe hers That is Remonstrance the lawes of the eternall lawgiuer for the essentiall matters of the Church gouernment not external pollicie which is variable Belike your meaning is our common wealth must change our Monarchie into Tetrarchie to establish your Tetrarchicall gouernment of the Church The 17. Demonstration Bucer dereg Christi lamenteth that some would not haue the same discipline vsed now adayes which was vsed in the Apostles time Demonstration And so may we lament the foolish and proud resistance which is made to the superioritie of our prelates and gouernours Remonstrance which is no other then that was The 18. Demonstration Whittaker contra Duraeū speaking of discipline Demonstration The Apostles haue written these lawes not for a day or for the first age but for all times to come and that with obtestation 1. Timoth 6. Aetatem habet Remonstrance the man is of discretiō let him answere for him selfe It cannot be he meant your rules of discipline he knoweth the absurditie of it and that your presbyterium est figmentum humanum and is no such commandement as Paul maketh obtestation to haue kept The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator By this euery Parish shall follow Demonstration their Seniors and then there will be so many diuers fashions seeing one may not meddle with another Answer of the Demonstrator The gouernment desired is vniforme for euery Church and admitteth no change not in outwarde ceremonies without a Synode of choise men out of euery Eldership Here is nothing but eldership vpō eldership Remonstrance with reply infinite elderships which the word of God describeth not what neede we exchāge the vniformitie which we already haue for that which is at the least suspicious to any well-sighted eye if not pernitious But if one Eldershippe will breede molestation in the planting of it at all aduentures what a doe will it make in the supplanting thereof Quae nascentia mala sunt ea crescentia peiora They must haue he saith vniformitie euen in ceremonies not to be changed without a Synode of choise men And were not ours so established And yet they will not obserue them May not we make as bolde with their ceremonies and vse as small vniformitie as they doe now The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator If the Eldership being meane men choose an Erle he must be at their becke The answere of the Demonstratour Demonstrat No man chosen is compelled against his will but he that despiseth to consult with others in Gods matters because they be poore reprocheth God that made them 17. Prou. 5. Heare this O ye princes and Earles of the land you must be at the Elders becke and commaunde Remonstrance or else you blaspheme your and their maker Salomons words are 17. Prou. 5.14 cap. 31. verse He that mocketh or he that oppresseth the poore not a word of Elders This is a contradiction to your selfe Any Earle or any man may choose or refuse to take it vpon him because euery one hath a negatiue voyce and yet he must be taken to disdaine if he doe refuse The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator It ouerburdeneth the Parish to prouide for so many Elders to be nourished Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator They shall not neede vnlesse they neede the liberalitie of the Church They shall not neede vnlesse they need This is a fine reciprocation Remonstrance They will neede foorth with

such other sophistications to plaister vp your assertions with vntrueth videlicet as these and such like As when you argue from your Puritane Idaea of gouernment out of the 14. Rom. All lawfull things are of faith all lawfull things of faith are warranted by the worde Ergo all lawfull things are warranted by the worde and consequently euery lawfull action in gouernment of the Church Where the conclusion is vniuersall in the third figure and Medius terminus videlicet lawfull things is in the conclusion contrarie to all rule of reasoning and yet the Demonstrator misseth of S. Pauls wordes which are Quicquid non ex fide peccatum est All that is not of faith is sinne Or where as you argue Hypotheticallie out of the 4. Ephes If all needfull gifts be appropriate to other ministeries then is the Archbishops ministerie vnlawfull but they are Ergo the Archbishops vnlawfull And T. C. before you argueth Categorically after this sort Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church which haue gifts needfull but all those Ephes 4. and Cor. 1.12 haue gifts needfull Ergo they are onely sufficient Which is as good a conclusion as if one of you did argue thus Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are contained in the Scripture But all those things in the Aue Marie are contained in the Scriptures Ergo those things onely in the Aue Marie are sufficient to saluation Or as cunningly after this sort Those onely are men which are endued with reason But all the Costerdmongers in London are endued with reason Ergo the Costerdmongers in London are the onely men Or where you goe about to prooue that none is ordinable to the ministerie vnlesse he haue a benefice As was the 12. place for Mathias so is a certaine place for euery church officer But Mathias was not ordained till Iudas had made it voyd by hanging himselfe Ergo none is to be ordained before the place be voyd Adde vnto this by such maner of Resignation as hanging of himself Or when another Apostleship falleth voide Or when euery 12. place is voyd Or when Mathias commeth againe to be chosen into Iudas place The Argument leapeth from one predicament to another from the predicament Agere to Vbi They ordained him to an office Ergo to a place and a certaine place as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the world Or when you will euince indefatigable residence of the Minister on the place out of the 1. Samuel 9. Elie the priest sate vpon a stoole by one of the postes of the Temple Ergo a Minister must be resident and belike must also as he did sit downe vpon a stoole Or this A Shepeheard must feede a Minister is a Shepeheard Ergo he must corporally and continually reside without naturall or legall dispensation for his absence As if you had sayd a Minister to be a Shepeheard otherwise then Metaphoricallie for a king also is a shepeheard but in a Metaphor who may law fully depute others to gouerne and to feede Or against non Residence out of the 1. Thes 1.17 v. Satan hindered mee Satan is the cause of non Residence Ergo vnlawfull where the Demonstrator maketh S. Paul to write good diuinitie Satan hindred me that is after the Demonstrators skill Satan caused me to doe an vngodly and vnlawfull thing whereas S. Paul his meaning is Satan raised persecution against me Or as fitly and perfectly after this sort for your popular elections and choise of ministers from the 8. Num. 9. v. The children of Israel put their handes vpon the heads of the Leuites The Leuites put their hands vpon the heads of bullocks Ergo the people must lay their hands on the heads of the Ministers Then adde vnto this The Ministers must lay their hands on the heads of bullocks T. C. taught you to reason thus from the ceremonie to the Gospell Et vitulo tu dignus hic Or when it pleaseth you to establish the presbyterie you interprete roundly Dic ecclesiae tell the Church that is the Eldership or Aldermanship of the Church yea and goe farther for the authoritie of this venerable Eldership out of the 49. Esay Kings and Queenes shall worship thee with their face towards the earth and shall licke vp the dust of thy feete c. Ergo great homage and honour shall be done to the Eldership Or in that place where you ouerthrow all standing superioritie of Ministers ouer Ministers you demonstrate after this fashion A bishop is called Episcopus An ordinarie Minister is called Episcopus Ergo all one Or a Bishop and an ordinarie Minister must haue one qualitie Ergo a parish Bishop and a diocoesan Bishop are all one thing Or all Bishops are equall in commission of the Ministerie Ergo equal in whatsoeuer commission of authoritie Or In the beginning for a while a Bishop and a priest or Minister were all one Ergo they must continue all one For in the Apostles time was the change and that same I am of Paul I am of Cephas was the occasion of the change and finally the decree of all the world at least as S. Hierome thinketh was the approbation of the change This were strange reasoning In the beginning Kings and priests were all one ergo they must continne all one In the beginning such was the simplicitie c. Great lords sonnes as Iacob c. kept their fathers sheepe ergo noble mens children mus● keepe their fathers sheepe In the beginning they baptized in Riuers ergo men must carie their children downe to be christened in Riuers Or in another where you demonstrate agaynst the superioritie of Archbishops If the Pope be odious the Archbishop is odious also as who would say If the vnmeasurable and illimitable power be vnlawfull Ergo a modest and limited superioritie by law is vnlawfull also Finiti ad Infinitum nulla est proportio Or The Archbishops office and name is vnknowen to vs Puritanes Ergo vnknowen and vnheard of in the Church You shall well know that both the name and equitie of the name and thing is knowen and allowed of in Gods Church Or where it pleaseth you to say Caluin saieth there were gouernours of order not of superioritie Ergo this is true as if it were truly sayd all gouernment of superioritie is gouernment of disorder and that these were opposite Or in the demonstration To prooue Doctor and Pastor to be distinguished you dispute cunningly thus Male and female are distinct in sexe or kind Gal. 3. Ergo Doctor and Pastor must be distinct why not then in sex or kind with many other like Paralogismes as in your seuerall Chapters shal be vnfolded the whole Demonstration being nothing els but a bundle of absurdities Howbeit the booke thereof is a thing so preciously esteemed by the author himself so magnified by his folowers as worthy to be set vpon the highest pinacle of this Church new reformed for which cause hee giueth

you shall see the monstruousnesse of your misbegotten conceiued foule Embryon deformed and mishaped birth borne into the world of Christianitie which you are so enamoured vpon and so fond ouer that euery one must kisse embrace it in his armes blush not to make shew demonstration of triumph of the birth natiuitie of the same How soeuer your fancie deludeth you with ioie this monster may not be suffered to liue vpon the face of the earth 1. Cor. 15.35 S. Paul somtime sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I haue fought with beasts vnder the shape of men at Ephesus that is with beastly and monstruous men and their opinions So I now say or will assaie to encounter the Demonstrator and his demonstrations to quell this monster amongst men Of the same mind are many moe of our excellent learned men Men are now awakened and will no longer endure these insignious abuses offered to the Church to the Vniuersities to the Colledges of learned men No no T.C. you the whole busie sect of Puritans do not thinke any longer to pester the Church of England You lacke the most of you for any thing I see sound Logike and other learnings diuine and humane Perchance you or some of the most ignominious amongst you may deuise an infamous Libell or letter against D. Bridges or D. Bancroft for his Sermon preached at Paules crosse a Sermon worthie to be read and printed in the heart of the hearer in deed or against the writer of this Remonstrance to solace your selues withall for the meane time as all heretikes and schismatikes are woont to countenance their cause I doe assure my selfe that none of you dare to vndertake a publique disputation in the schooles if those in authoritie shall thinke it fit or to goe forward with this scholasticall exercise of Syllogising To second your irrefragable vndoubted and thrise learned demonstrations the next newes I looke to heare from you will be no refutation of this my booke but a little booke or Libel full fraught with calumnious slander neuerthelesse per bonam famam per infamiam by good report and bad report we must proceed on to the iustification of a good cause And if like dastards and recreants you will not deale with handie-strokes of Syllogisme let it be an euident signe that you are readie to runne away and for euer after relinquish your so disputable and demonstrable a cause * ⁎ * Chap. I. A REMONSTRANCE TO THE SVPPOSED DEMONSTRATION OF PRETENDED DISCIPLINE The maine Conclusion or Assertion of the first Chapter THE worde of God describeth perfectly vnto vs that fourme of gouerning the Church which is lawfull Demonstration and the officers which are to execute the same from the which no Christian Church ought to swarue This is the maine conclusion of these monstrous Demonstrations Remonstrance not to be worthied the name of Demonstrations forasmuch as I haue learned Medium est causa maioris extremi in omni demonstratione Arist poster li. 1. which neuer falleth out in any of these Demonstrations neither are the partes or propositions correspondent to a Demonstration whereof none can be admitted but such which are Termini pares reciprocabiles Nor so much as principles or groundes immediate of themselues needing proofe of no other infallibly true or first true before all other or foorth with knowne and to be acknowledged true or finally Causae conclusionis But which rather be probable Syllogismes and those but very fewe or indeede Paralogismes meere Sophismes to make a brawle against receiued trueth In this conclusion if by gouerning were vnderstoode the direction in faith and manners of euery true member of the Church it were simply to be granted But these men as by their whole discourses appeareth vnderstand thereby the gouernment for the externall pollicie and orders of the whole Church in generall also of euery greater part thereof as the Church of an whole nation or prouince and of euery seuerall congregation If therefore by these wordes describeth perfectly he and they meane that all the whole frame and forme of this gouernment and the officers to execute the same with their names adiuncts offices and seuerall authorities particularly and specifically are either expressed or by the word of God immediatly and necessarily may be concluded both we denie it and themselues nowe at length though with much a doe confesse it not to be true Yet T. C. the Bel-weather of this bande out of whose forge the Demonstrationer hath taken vp almost all his stuffe on trust in his bookes did at first so vnderstand it For because Christ his faithfulnes in Gods house is likened to that of Moses who described euery pinne almost of the Tabernacle therefore he concludeth that not the least particular point tending to externall Church gouernment is omitted vndescribed in Gods word As if either he had some Scripture that others haue not seene or he onely were cleare sighted And to this very purpose serue all the arguments of this first Chapter Insomuch as Barrowe who professeth that he holdeth nothing which he hath not gathered out of those and like mens bookes still thinketh that none external orders or lawes at al are lawful now to be set down for the Church because Christ hath set downe sufficient in particular But the other sorte somewhat wiser being taught by their schoole-mistresse experience that vpon triall made euery expedient particular in external gouernment could not be so proued haue by their Champion Martine the Malepart In his second booke restrained this whole controuersie to a narrower issue saying that the Officers and their offices are so described and both these forsooth at least are essentiall And the whole fraternitie as I heare either in person or representatiuely being out of all coastes of this land synodically assembled haue nowe impounded The holy discipline which they holde to be described in the worde to be essentiall eternall and immutable vnto the fourth part of one sheete of paper but their Synodicall discipline which already vpon the first licking is seuen times as great as the other they thinke in some respects to be necessarie and eternall in other respects to be mutable but howe much of it lookes the one way and howe much the other way they haue not yet reueiled Therefore thus I reason by retortion vpon their owne positions Ba Al forme of gouerning the church which is lawful with the officers to execute it is perfectly described in the worde of God ro Your Synodicall forme of gouerning and the officers to execute it by your owne position is not perfectly described in the worde of God ergo co It is not a lawfull forme of gouerning the Church c. The 1. Demonstration These things I write vnto thee c. 1. Timot. 3.14.15 v. Demonstration Out of this place I reason thus That ende which S. Paul respected in writing vnto Timothie the holy Ghost directeth all Ministers

of seuerall circumstances for so themselues in their newe platted discipline are forced to distinguish and confesse ergo co Their Synodicall discipline c. is no good way The 4. Demonstration The Demonstrator saith Demonstration we cannot glorifie God but by obedience to his worde But in all we doe we must glorifie God ergo In all that we do we must be obedient to his worde and consequently in gouerning of his Church The Syllogisme and prosyllogisme proue nothing to the purpose Remonstrance and reproue not any thing of ours It is an obedience to the word such gouernment as ours whether ordeined by it or subordinate vnto it alwaies to be conformable to the gouernment of his worde of this sort is euery title and iote of our Liturgie and Communion booke our ceremonies our prouinciall constitutions or any lawe in force which bindeth vs to the subscription or obseruation of the booke Haue home againe this slender Syllogisme to your selfe You cannot disglorifie God Retortion but by disobedience to his word but your recusance of her Maiesties lawfull proceedings vnder God is as the sinne of witchcraft is disglorifying of God ergo in not doing or vndoing her Maiesties proceeding is disobedience to the worde The 5. Demonstration If meate and drinke cannot be sanctified but by the worde praier Demonstration much lesse any thing is holie in action of gouerning the Church that is besides the worde but the first is true ergo the second This Syllogisme is connexiue Remonstrance il fauouredly knit together the sequell of the Antecedent must be distinguished If you meane besides the worde contrary or repugnant to the worde no man will deny the consequence of the first and then all this threede is euill spunne it maketh nothing to the purpose But if by Besides the worde you vnderstand all comprehended vnder the generall precepts thereof you must begin to knit a newe demonstration else your whole discipline frame fals on your head I therefore retort your argument thus If euery creature vnder heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Retortion be good and not to be reiected because it is sanctified by praier and the worde then much more 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euery humaine creature or ordinance which commeth downe from heauen which is often sanctified by praier and the word but the former is true ergo the later And by consequence euery deale of our Church discipline pollicie is of God vnto which you must submit or else be rebels against God for you cannot proue it repugnant to Gods word The 6. Demonstration All lawfull things are of faith Rom. 14.23 v. Demonstration All lawfull things of faith are warranted by the worde ergo All lawfull things are warranted by the worde and consequently euery lawfull action in the gouernment of the Church The state of the question that you make is Remonstrance Whether euery lawfull action be warranted by the worde the right state of the question is whether euery sere and singular action for Church externall pollicie must be in so many letters expressed or immediately to be gathered of the worde You may not passe away thus in cloudes of generalitie To the Maior viz. All lawfull things are of faith Falsification of the text by the Demonstrator Maledicta glossa quae corrumpit textum You corrupt the text the text is All that is not of faith is sinne not all lawfull things are of faith for all good artes and sciences be lawfull but not of faith for Heathens inuented and practised most of them The Maior neither is true in the allegation nor in the conuersion of the termes true which in a demonstration is requisite for all faithfull things are lawful not all lawfull things are faithfull This poison is not worth a counter you must runne a begging for a better Demonstration to the Counterpoysoner whence this was borrowed To the Maior Minor and Conclusion The whole Syllogisme is faulty All lawfull things are of faith All lawfull things of faith are warranted in the worde ergo All lawfull things are warranted in the worde Transposition of termes makes no Syllogisme in direct concluding moodes Nowe for the consequencie It is ab angulo ad baculum from the corner to the staffe All lawfull things of faith are warrantable by the worde ergo All lawfull things are warrantable by the word The Demonstrator neuer learned this Logike Ab oratione secundùm quid sumpta cum determinatione ad orationem sumptam simpliciter sine determinatione non valet argumētum The reason is all alike All fastes or daies of abstinence commanded by the Church are good ergo all fastes yea vpon the Lordes day are also good whether commanded or not commanded The 7. Demonstration Either God hath left a prescript forme of gouernment nowe or else he is lesse carefull vnder the Newe Testament then vnder the Olde Demonstration But he is as carefull nowe ergo This disiunctiue desperately setteth all out of tune Remonstrance Either God hath made a prescript forme of gouernment or he is a carelesse God These men care not what they say it maketh against themselues whatsoeuer they say The assumption is presumption by a tricke of Logike to accuse God of carelesnes To the Antecedent The Antecedent is most false when both partes are false Either he hath prescribed as they would haue described or the diuine Maiestie is a carelesse God O carelesse diuinitie When both partes of a Dilemma or disiunctiue are false a bare negatiue might serue but neither hath God giuen a prescript forme of accidentall or externall gouernment as themselues with shame enough at last confesse neither is he at any time a carelesse God Euery point of discipline is not disclosed in the lawe euery particular case incident is not reckoned there the lippes of the Priest must preserue knowledge the breast of the High Priest keepe Vrim and Thumim light and perfection of holinesse and knowledge When a hard case riseth resort must be to the high priest or Iudge in the land Rom. 8. As for so much as is prescribed in the new law or law of spirite of life no prescription ought to bee made against it where the word leaueth of for diuersitie of gouernment it leaueth all the rest to a Christian libertie to the Christian magistracie to the holy ministerie to keepe vs within awe But see now this argument reboundeth from the wall of your discipline vpon your faces Retortion of the argument Either God hath giuen a Christian libertie and for the right vse there of the gifts of gouernment 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 12. by the perpetuall pledge and operation of his spirite or else he tieth vs to the ceremoniall obseruances and policie of the law to be schooled vnder them God is not tied vnto vs. But God hath not by any prescript forme tied vs to that part of the law neither doeth

bad harper harpeth alwayes on one string My answere is as vnto the 7. 8. Demonstrations 1. Cap. Or I answere with concession because it is nothing to the question and therefore your fight is with no body but with the foolish feare of your owne shadowe Or I answere by distinction thus Direct warrantie is either immediate from the voyce of God or which is mediate by direct consequencie gathered out of the worde of God Such is any calling in the Church of England by what name soeuer it be named deducible from the worde of God The 3. Demonstration If Corah Dathan and Abyram were punished hauing no warrant of that they tooke in hand Demonstration then is euery calling generally warranted out of the worde and particularly layde vpon the parties But the first is true Ergo the second Nomb. 16. This is well concluded Your consequence of the Maior no way followeth Remonstrance except the want of warrantize had bene the only cause of their punishment You confesse a trueth before you are aware in the Minor your owne feters shall serue for your owne feete If Corah Dathan and Abyram were swallowed vp aliue for insurrection against Moses and Aaron the high Priest Retortion for ambitious seeking to be all high Priestes not contented with the ministerie of the Tabernacle as inferiour Leuites and for scismatical assertion Is not the whole Congregation holy Hij omnes sunt sancti are not all these holy that is sanctified to the Lord Num. 16.3 both intruding into the office and obtruding to the people the office of the high Priest at that time Must not the scismatikes of our time whose contradiction is the same perish also in the same contradiction Pares culpa pares paena like fault like punishment without the mercie of God But the Antecedent is true Ergo the consequent is together true For these doe the very same against those who are set ouer them in the Lorde Plus satis arrogatis vobis Inter eos est Iehoua quare ergo effertis vos super Congregationem Iehouae You take too much vpon you amongst them is the Lord Is not all the Congregation holy Why doe you aduance your selues aboue the Congregation of the Lorde Are not all holy all Ministers alike and ministeries Is not the laytie a holy presbyterie to the Lord Are not the Congregation interessed in the gouernment of the Church Nemo de vobis vnus excellat Omnem exuperantiam virtutis oderunt Tusc quest lib. 5. Euery of vs is as good as other These be as the voyces of old scismatikes were The 4. Demonstration That which giueth cōfort in trouble must haue a warrāt out of Gods word Demonstration But euery lawfull calling doeth so Ergo. The Argument lyeth at Cowards warde Remonstrance We denie not but that all lawful callings haue warrant of Gods worde but not particularly or totidem verbis For where findeth he a Master of an Hospitall a Printer a Cartwright a Salte-peter man a shirte-maker a gunne-maker an Attorney in all Scripture Ante diem clauso componet vesper Olimpo From morning vnto night Stans pede in vno you may demonstrate thus The 5. Demonstration That which helpeth forwarde in godlinesse Demonstration must haue a warrant out of Gods worde But euery lawfull calling helpeth forward in godlines Ergo. These and such other like Arguments Remonstrance are like to the Islands in Archipelago 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lying in the middle way to be surprised of any man or as the prouince of Iewry and Syria where of Tullie saith Iudaei et Syri ad seruitutem nati De prouin consul bound to serue all turnes and pay tribute vnto all who will make them tributarie Wastewordes of the Demonstrator They confesse all this to bee true Demonstration but denie the Archbyshop and LL. B B. c. to be distinct Ministers which we holde to be distinguished and by sixe Demonstrations doe prooue it first thus The 1. Demonstration Those things which haue diuerse efficient causes Demonstration are diuerse Our L L. B B. and the Ministers of the worde haue diuerse efficient causes the one the ordinance of God the other of humane policie Ergo. Wee holde their ministerie of the worde to be as others Remonstrance and there in equall but for order and policie of the Church a Superioritie in gouernement censures and ordinations in which respect they are B B. So much Beza and Caluin also confesse in effect speaking of Patriarkes Archbyshops and Byshops in the Primatiue Church To the Maior This must be true in naturall or in artificiall and ciuill things or true in neither For some things haue diuerse efficients and are the same things other are diuerse thinges and haue the same efficient Ergo. It is true in neither The braine of an Anabaptist and the braine of an asse haue one efficient and yet are diuerse things Sol et homo generant hominem Sol et asinus generant asinum vnlesse you make an Anabaptist the foale of an asse The soule of Nouatus and the soule of T.C. haue but one creator and yet are indiuiduated and diuers things vnlesse you holde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 transmigration into T.C. of Nouatus soule Againe if wee might beleeue your selues Moses made the Sanedrim of olde or authorised it Christ in your eldership made or authorised the Sanedrim of the new according to your selues These are diuerse efficients yet but one thing The egge of this byrds laying and of another byrds hatching hath diuers efficients but yet is one chicke Diuersities of efficient church wrights and reformers of the state belike must needes breede diuersitie of reformation of the state and diuerse communion bookes as fell out within two yeeres experience thrise diuersely your Presbyteries your Classies and your Synodes seuerally may make or ordeine ministers and these be diuerse assemblies ergo their ministeries be diuers that so diuersly be ordeined and called of them The Minor cannot passe it is passing naught viz. our BB. and the ministers haue diuerse efficients as themselues doe confesse Who euer of vs did confesse the BB. to be a mere humane constitution Therefore let this lie As for the worde and title of Lorde in which limitation they thinke a great aduantage lurketh it is but per accidens as they haue Baronries If it were otherwise why not titles of honour due to them if honour bee due The efficient of BB. in respect they are ministers is God as BB. properlie is also God Omnis potestas a Deo For admit all their authoritie or names were not specifically expressed shall not their power therefore be of God els where be the foure Syndicts of Geneuaes authoritie For there is no such office named particularly in scripture See the 304. page of the defence of the answere to the admonition whose plaine distinction is That great is the oddes to be ordeyned of

to Pastors and Doctors which onely remaine Ergo Elders and Deacons are both needlesse and vnlawfull neither will their old sillie shift shroud them viz. that Ministers of the word are there only meant First because no such distinction is there made or to be collected Vbi lex non distinguit nec nos debemus and they should least of all so gather who reason in all matters negatiuely out of Scriptures for either it must teach this distinction or else it is no good way that is taught Secondly for that Elders Deacons either are contained vnder some of these or else they haue no gifts or blessings from Christ annexed to their callings for that those are the gifts which Christ ascending gaue to his Church Thirdly because those officers mentioned Ephes 4. are giuen as sufficient of Christ not onely for the worke of the Ministerie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but for the gathering together of the Saints and building of the bodie of the Church two speciall effects if we should beleeue them of their presbyteries then what giftes will remaine and to what end which may be bestowed on their Elders and Deacons all that Christ gaue as themselues speake being appropriate and taken vp afore by others Or thus If all such gifts for the worke of the ministerie c. bee appropriate to Pastors and Doctors which still remaine then are the gifts peculiar to Apostles Euangelists and Prophets either ceased with them because seuerall functions they say haue alwayes seuerall and peculiar giftes è conuerso so that Pastors and Doctors shall not haue any gifts which any of the other three had or if this be absurd because Christ hath giuen them all to his Church as is there testified vntill we all meete together in the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfect man and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ which shall not bee till the consummation of all things therefore setting aside some extraordinarie points that were personall to some few in those times all these functions and offices are ordinarie and remaine still in the Church whatsoeuer some writers say to the contrarie albeit through the great diuersitie of the measure of gifts it be difficult to set downe certainly in all times what offices doe answer vnto which of euery of them But forsomuch as the consent of all ancient writers making bishops both a diuine institution sauing onely Hierome in two places being thereby also contrary to himselfe else-where and successors of the Apostles for the planting of sundrie Churches at first or establishing and gouerning Churches alreadie planted concurreth with the vniforme practise of all the Churches in the world from the Apostles time downeward and is not contraried by the worde therefore I mustneedes with that incomparable man Zanchus iudge their institution and office to bee of the holy Ghost Zanchus in confess as succeeding therein the Apostles As for an Archbishop he is a bishop of his seuerall dioecesse yet chiefe amongst many of a prouince for better direction of matters of order and for iustice vpon appellations which being but an accident maketh no seuerall kind of office therefore that addition to the Minor is vntrue whereof he is none because in all those offices the greater includeth the lesse and a bishop is both a successour of the Apostles and also a pastour or minister he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as S. Peter although in order chiefe Apostle yet a fellow elder in the lord For teaching and feeding to vse Saint Hieromes wordes Vt vnus idémque sit paster ouium magister hominum Ephes 4. one and the same man may bee a pastour amongst his sheepe and a Doctour amongst men Note the feature of this deformed argument If God hath giuen all sense and intelligence to T.C. and the Demonstrator which are but two men Absurdities of the Demonstrator which he is lead vnto by ignorance of All collectiue and All distributiue All the world besides are sencelesse and witlesse men If the lord hath put the spirite of wisedome and cunning into Bezaleel and Aholiab By this collection of the Demonstrator all the rest after are vnskilfull and vncunning men If God gaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 omnem fidem to his 12. Apostles whereof Paul was none being borne out of due time Ergo Paul the Apostle had no faith The 5. Demonstration That office is vnlawfull which none may lawfully bestow Demonstration But none may lawfully bestow the office of the Archbishop because none can giue new gifts to adorne it withall Ergo vnlawfull To the Maior By this rule you may take exception to Moses Remonstrance and to S. Iohn Baptist who tooke not their office from man but from God Your Maior had bene true if the ground of it were Nemo sibi arroget honorem vnlesse he be called by God or by the ordinance of man vnderneath God To the Minor This is not onely vnreasonable but treasonable because the Queenes maiestie doth and ought to giue and bestow the office of the Archbishop vnto which office no extraordinarie but ordinarie gifts are belonging None can bestow saieth the Demonstrator the office of an Archbishop because he can giue no new gifts to garnish it withall Ergo according vnto him some may bestow the office of an Archbishop who is able to giue new gifts to adorne it withall But I would gladly for my instruction learn how they prooue the contradictorie Proposition vnto this viz. None can bestow an office of gouernment in charge vnlesse he giue new giftes to beautifie it withall or that office which holy Synode and Parliament doth allowe none can bestow As if the substance could not be without changeable Accidents and alterable qualities belonging vnto it Absurditie of the Demonstrator as if no man can bestow a new mantell vnlesse hee giue new buttons together with the mantell or none can bestow a clokebag on the maker of these woorthie Demonstrations vnlesse he giue new strings to tie both ends withall Thus I retort it vpon them That office which none may lawfully bestow is vnlawfull The office of their Pastors Doctors Elders and Deacons none can lawfully bestow because as they reason None can giue new giftes to adorne them withall more then they had afore their ordinations Ergo by this their owne position all those are vnlawfull If they answere God hath bestowed giftes on these offices alreadie wee replie that so hee hath giuen to Apostles and vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernements in the Church Rom. 12. a matter wherein Bishops and Archbishops are especially bestowed and yet as I haue shewed afore they must by their owne collection pull their Elders and Deacons out of that ranke for they are not once mentioned where the gifts are sayd to be giuen Eph. 4. but come cleane after the dole The 6. Demonstration If the office of an Archbishop be lawfull

without any such Eldership as is since dreamed of The 2. Demonstration As it was in the planting of the Church Demonstration so in the building it must be for euer But they ordeined neither Pastor nor Doctor Deacon nor Elder but to a place that had neede Ergo nor wee vntill there be neede The Demonstrator concludeth in the third figure Remonstrance and neuer a mood The Minor is negatiue contrarie to all lawe of apt conclusion To the Maior The Maior is too generall to be geneerally true Prophecie interpretation of tongues giftes of healing myracles were requisite in first planting of the Church all which are not required in building of the Church In Salomons time Infidels did helpe to set vp the materiall Church which afterward were debarred to come in or prophane the Church To the Minor Howe prooue you the negatiue vz. They ordeined neither Pastor c. vntill they had neede Why there is alwayes neede Messis multa operarij pauci a great haruest but fewe labourers Yet this Donec might be well spared vntill wee haue neede of it for they neuer made any when any place was voyde excepting Matthias case which was a singular case vna hirundo non facit ver one swallowe maketh no sommer vnlesse you meane of such an auoidance which is priuatione praeuia where neuer any was before and then it is true but farre estranged from your meaning In vacuum venerunt they made these officers where neuer any were before and quae nullius sunt in bonis cedunt occupanti To dismisse you without laughter due vnto your folly Absurditie of the Demonstrator let all the world iudge what a consequence this is In the beginning first planting of the Church they baptized in theriuer ergo we must christen our children in the riuer The Churches were in priuate houses ergo we must practise our religion in our priuate parlours In the first they had communitie of goods 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ergo none may nowe possesse in vse ought that hee hath but as they brought and layde it downe at the Apostles feete euen so wee must lay downe our substance at the doctors and pastors feete As it was in the planting so it must bee in the building of the church for euer But Apostles the first planters were called by Gods owne immediate voyce being men vnlettered to them were 72. euangelists adioyned and after prophets ergo the church must bee built by these and such like for euer and consequently they are not ceased as elsewhere you affirme The 3. Demonstration These things that are of one beginning continuance and ending Demonstration cannot be one before and after another But the minister and the execution of his ministery be relatiues ergo a minister ought not to bee ordeyned before there bee a ministerie whereunto he is allotted To the Maior Albeit in this paralogisme are 4. termini Remonstrance because hee concludeth the ministerie of a certaine person instead of the ministerie of a certaine place yet my answere is Those things c. cannot be but one before and after another that is idem subiecto one and the same in subiect which is a contradiction to it self that one thing is one and the same and yet one and the same is prius posterius seipso before and after it selfe To the Minor But they are relatiues sayth the demonstrator say I not proper but improper viz. a minister and his ministerie to a determinate place for a minister if you will make a reference is a minister of a ministerie be it gospel or lawe his ministerie is not precisely tied to a certaine place although his care must be to doe good at once in one place his readines to do good and that in euery place God chose his Apostles whome after his ascension hee sent into all places They who conuert infidels are not sure of intertaynement This argument proceedeth not but retroceedeth against themselues Those new fangled runners before they are sent Retortion haue no ordination or designement to a certain place ergo their ministerie is a nullitie and without lawfull calling according to them selues in whatsoeuer place as if they will they shal heare in particular for none more factious then those who haue no sette places but intrude vpon others and winne credit of zeale by nouelties and defacing of the ministers of the place The 4. Demonstration If none ought to bee called a shepheard that hath no flocke of sheepe to keepe Demonstration nor watchman which is not allotted to a place to watch then none may be ordeyned to any office before the place be voyd the 1. is true Ergo the second I denie the antecedent and sequel of the same Remonstrance for a man may be called a shepheard and haue neuer a flocke of sheepe of his owne or others to keepe as many poore men who are expert in the knowledge and are not worth a sheepe or as Iacob he and his fathers were shepheards accounted themselues so in the presence of Pharao for that was their trade Or a man may bee called a captaine if he haue instruction of military discipline though he doe not euer leade a bande of souldiers denomination is rather of the habit then of the acte If a shoomaker haue sold all his shoes or a grasier all his cattell belike their trades and names are cleane gone Now farther to say that none may be called to the promotion of a shepheard vnlesse forthwith some man deliuer him a flocke of certaine sheepe it is a pretie imagination as if he could be his craftsmaster before his craftsman But to the sequel of the Antecedent this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to argue hee cannot bee made a shepheard before a place bee voyde Ergo hee cannot be made a minister before the place be voyde This is easily auoyded For no man is so made a minister for a particular parish or small precinct of place as that his ministerie were gone if the parish were dispeopled and the houses burnt vp but hee is made a minister for the church of Englande whersoeuer his seruice shall be required in the prouince or place This is an olde stoppegamball No more coates then backes to weare them No more ministers then places to dispose them The ministerie shal be like to a drawebridge keepe them sure enough that are within keepe them secure enough from dealing in the ministerie who albeit of their pure zeale as many with vs which would preache the gospel because of lacke of roome shal be faine to stand without The first therefore is false and semblably the second How doth the olde rule holde nowe One shepheard must haue one flocke by their delineation or many shepheards may not haue one flock for feare of thronging or intrusion which otherwhiles they admit of the puritane transformation vnum ad vnum est aptissimum one is

fittest for one It is in very deede the best referencie for one thing secundùm idem cannot haue sundrie relation The 5. Demonstration To doe contrary to the precept and practise of the apostles is vnlawfull Demonstration To ordeine an officer without a certaine place is contrary Ergo vnlawfull Titus 1.5 acts 14.23 To the Maior To do contrary to the precepts and practise of the apostles is not euer vnlawfull as Act. 15.29 Remonstrance v. is commanded Absteyne from blood and strangled yet it is now lawfull to eate bloud or strangled therfore this vniuersall maior is false To the Minor To ordeine an officer without a place or to ordeine many officers in readines to doe office and seruice to the whole church is not contrary to the practise or commaundement of the apostles in any of those places but rather iustifiable out of the place Act. 14.23 Paul and Barnabas returned to Lystra and Iconium and Antioche 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ordeyned vnto them or for them pastoral elders in euery church and commended them to the Lord in whome they had beleeued They ordeyned pastoral elders in euery church or in the church howe followeth it hereof that they did not or might not ordeine some ouer and aboue for the prouision of the whole church likewise out of the place Tit. 1.5 v. It is an impossible collection Absurditie of the Demonstrator for this were handsome reasoning I haue left thee to make pastorall elders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in euery citie Ergo make no elders nor ministers for the countrey or I haue left thee to make elders for euery citie Ergo make iust no more elders then there be cities Sometimes these fellowes would gather by the plurall number their laie elders from hence They holde it pollicie of their church to make more Bishops then one Rotortion where the maintenance will stretch for one towne or citie and why may not our vniuersities and cathedrall churches being colledges of the prophets keepe within them as they do and foster with their maintenance many ministers and pastorall elders to furnish towne and countrey The 6. allegation of the Demonstrator Demonst. Conc. Chalced. Can. 6. Artic. 15 It was ordained that neither deacon nor elder nor other should be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is loosely but in a church citie or towne The wordes are Neminem absolutè Remonstrance id est sine titulo the exception is nisi in ecclesia suae ciuitatis siue possessionis aut in martyrio aut in monasterio There are exceptions ynough to authorise any ordination in our church sith many are ordained for our colledges and cathedrall churches c. Great ods betweene absolutè et dissolutè which is to be let runne at randome Demonstration Conc. Vrban Test Gra. c. tuum distinct 70. as most of you are persons of no church and vicars of the same The 7. allegation of the Demonstrator The ordination that is made without a title let it be voyd This is maruaile you will borrow out of Gratian or out of the Canon lawe Remonstrance drawe cleare demonstration from puddle water vnto which you often compare the Canon lawe I perceiue euery place you can make must serue your turnes yea puddle wharfe Your answere was before with the exceptions afore remembred Besides a title is not alwaies a charge or flocke but an assignation of set maintenance least they should begge cum dedecore clericalis ordinis as the Canons speake The 8. allegation of the Demonstrator Hieronymus ad Nepotianum complained that ministers were ordeined being chosen by no church Demonstration and so went here and there hauing no place There is no such matter to be found in S. Hierom as is here alledged Remonstrance but if Hierom had complained belike hee did not complaine without a lawful cause It is pitie and shame they should wander vp and downe but this would haue argued that absolute ordinations were then vsed yet wee graunt the Canons sauing in some cases doe forbidde them as inconuenient and so this church practiseth if the lawes be followed if not the men are blameable not the lawes The 9. Allegation of the Demonstrator That action which is read to be practised neuer but by Idolaters is vnlawfull Demonstrator To haue wandring officers is so Iudg. 17.8 Ergo vnlawfull This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fight with a shadowe Remonstrance or to wander from the purpose More is in the conclusion of the Syllogisme then in the premisses The question was of allotting Ministers to a place the conclusion is of a wandring apostacie or forsaking his ordination and his place If there be any like Micah for entertaining such or like the wandring Leuite that did goe from Bethlehem Iuda from the better to the worse and goe to dwell as it is in that text where he may finde a place your selues are such hostes and such guestes rather then we For many amongst you are wandring starres and wayfaring mates a life chosen by your selues not imposed The Obiection of the Demonstrator Paul and Barnabas did wander Ergo. Demonstrator Answere The Apostles office and the Euangelistes was to preach the worde and to plant Churches But the order that they left is a president for vs that euery Church should haue their proper officers and that there be no other else where to be founde Bray a foole in a morter hee will not leaue his folly Remonstrance with replie no more will this man his bable nor babbling obiections Paul and Barnabas did not wander as in our behalfe you would seeme to obiect but for the watring and planting of the Churches passed to and fro as any may doe that haue care of many Congregations to visite them or as Saint Paul who confessed solus ego I onely haue care of all Congregations this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or incoherent or a president neuer to be found Euery Church must haue proper officers Ergo there are no other nor ought to be els where any other found Once againe howe prooue those men a negatiue This is to stoppe the encrease of Gods diuine grace This is fine in conceite Your gouerning Elders must be numerus infininitus or indefinitus Ergo Absurditie of the Demonstrator our Pastorall Elders must be numerus finitus a certaine number Why not sans number of those who to Godward are professed The third Chapter The Assertion of the Demonstrator EVery Church officer ought to execute his office Demonstrator and be continually resident on his charge The Demonstrator is too too peremptorie Remonstrance because he comprehendeth neither natural nor legal nor other dispensation by the worde continually But let vs heare the Demonstration The 1. Demonstration A Shepheard hath a flocke continually to feede it The Minister is a Shepheard and his charge a flocke Demonstration Ergo hee ought continually to feede it

is vnlawfull But the congregation hath neede of vs Ergo vnlawfull Syllogizari non est exparticulari Remonstrance To be absent from one man or one particular congregation is not vnlawfull his employment being otherwise beneficiall I might reason as well thus Absurdity of the demonstrator To be absent from those who haue neede of vs is vnlawfull The church of Ephesus had neede of Timothie the church of Galathians and Corinthians neede of Paul Ergo Pauls and Timothies absence were both vnlawfull Or after this wise To be absent from those that haue neede of vs is vnlawfull The Paynims and heathen in America terra australi where no church is haue neede of vs Ergo our absence is vtterly vnlawfull This fallacion is secundum quid ad simpliciter The 15. Demonstration Demonstration If the priests might not dwell farre from the temple then the ministers may not be non Resident But the first is true 1. Chron. 28. ca. 13. v. ergo the second I may argue as substantially and as well Remonstrance If the Exchequer men must of conueniencie dwell neere to Westminster hall and the singing men of Paules neere there abouts ergo they must neuer goe out of the place The place which you alledge is Dauid gaue to Salomon a paterne of the courts of the house of God and for all the chambers round about which serue for the treasures of the house of God and for the treasures of the dedicate things and for the courses of the Priestes and Leuites Now the later may expound the former ergo the Priestes and Leuites waited in their courses It proueth not an indefatigable or continuall howrely attendance You deale hardly to make them de genere affixorum or to naile them to a place The 16. Demonstration or Allegation Let no Clerke be placed in two charges for it is filthie merchandize Demonstra Concil Nic. c. 15. c. No man can serue two Maisters Let euery one tarrie in the place where he is called The olde prouerbe is now verefied 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance Like egge like birde like master like man T.C. the maister misalledged the Councell and so doeth V. D. his yeoman See the 247. pag. of the Defense of the answere to the Admonition These men to euict their purpose will not refuse omne genus testium etiam ab inferis viz. the most blasphemous corrupt and depraued the 2. Councell of Nice which to bleare mens eies withall they call simply the Councell of Nice Out of this Councell they may proue adoration of reliques inuocation of Saintes worshipping of images with the same worship that the Trinitie is worshipped if they wil take farder serious counsel in the cause I may say of them as Seneca said of a wanton Poet Non ignorauit sed amauit sua vitia they cannot be ignorant but they loue their owne faults and errors Let no man c. in the ende of the canon in Regia ciuitate be placed in moe great cities then one In other towneships and villages it is lawful and so Gratian expoundeth Caus 20. quaest 1. Clericus and the Councell of Chalcedon and the glose A man may be intituled to two Churches if they be poore and with dispensation or by way of trust or Commendam As for allegation 6. Matth. No man can serue two maisters that is contrarie Masters God and Beliall God and Mammon For the other place 1. Cor. 7. Let a man tary in his vocation that is his kinde of vocation not in the locall place These fallacies are fallacies figurae dictionis This therefore must be the meaning of the place Let no man c. without abilitie to discharge them both be placed in two charges or let no man make a filthie lucre of his charge The 17. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstration Damasus compareth them that set ouer their charges to harlots that put out their children Concil com 2. c. to nurse to giue themselues to more pleasure This man heard T. C. say it was in the second Tome of Councels Remonstrance which is in the first See what it is to take euery thing by heare-say Damasus in his epistle speaketh against Chorepiscopi which occupied the place of their bishoprikes some part of their office as consecration of Priestes Deacons and Virgines imposition of handes dedication of Churches who were both insolent themselues and made others their bishops liue in pleasure and idlenes This concerneth nothing honest learned and sufficient Curates If you thinke your owne wife or any other onely for putting out their children within the compasse of an harlot you are within the compasse of a iealous headed foole It were more reasonable to iudge her so if she were with childe before you maried her The 18. Allegation or Demonstration It was ordeined that none Demonstra either Bishop or Elders should goe from Citie to Citie Theodor. l. 1. c. 9. The place is in the Ecclesiasticall historie of Theodoret Remonstrance albeit you quote it not Theodoret speaketh of Eusebius Nicomediensis an Arrian who leauing Nicomedia Ad sedem Constantinopolitani Episcopatus per ambitum arrepsit idque contra Ecclesiae canonem qui vetat tum Episcopos tum Presbyteros de vnius ciuitatis sede ad alterius sedem transferre who translated himselfe by sute and ambition from one Church to another for as it is in the same Theodoret Cùm ei Beryensis Ecclesiae administratio concredita esset inde ad Nicomediae Episcopatum gerendum se transtulit where he was Gouernour of the Church of Beria he translated him selfe to Nicomedia and from the bishoprike thereof to Constantinople leaping from Church to Church by sute after the promotion and contrarie to the Canon of the Church which forbiddeth ambition and sute both vnto Priestes and Bishops and translation from one See to another of their owne heades without a cause allowed by their Superiors according to the seuerall orders of euery Church The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Two parishes may be vnited ergo one may haue charge of them Demonstrator when they are two or diuided Answere of the Demonstrator One sheepheard may keepe one flocke being great but not two flockes being litle going in diuerse pastures That is falsly answered Remonstrance with replie for Iacob in the 30. Genes kept Labans and his owne flocke of sheepe and put them in diuerse pastures As for the obiection when they are diuided his paines are the greater he must repaire to them but in the vnion whatsoeuer is the distance they must repaire to him except it be otherwise especially prouided The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Parishes were diuided by men by the Monke Denys Pope of Rome Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator That is vntrue for the Apostles in the Actes diuided the Churches into Congregations Nay that is more vntrue This is as the Schoolemen speake 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉

that preheminence in regard of their cost bestowed call other ministers in partem sollicitudinis into a part of the charge and by institution of them vnto seuerall churches and the reuenues thereof did as it were inuest them to the title of that part of Glebe tithes c. which was accounted as his own afore but vnto the said vses which course now hath continued many hundred yeeres downe vnto these times It resteth to consider what the Demonstrator can prooue therein to be impious and to be returned againe to Antichrist as proceeding from him being Antichristian The 1. Demonstration The constant practise of the Apostles Church must be folowed 1. Tim. 6.14 Demonstration The constant practise of the Church was to chuse her officers Ergo It belongeth to the Church to chuse her officers Act. 1.6 Act. 6.5 Act. 14 25. Here be quatuor termini for in stead of must be followed is put belongeth to the Church which is the conclusion Remonstrance but is in neither of the premisses and besides the Maior speaketh of the Church which is the Apostles and therefore a Paralogisme Besides it is vntrue for their constant practise was to abstaine from blood and strangled to celebrate the supper at night to prophecie in course so many as thought good not to weare any thing at all on their heads at praier and to speake strange languages in the congregation 1. Cor. 14. which need not be followed of vs. To the Minor I denie the constant practise of the Apostles to haue bene or to be prooued out of those places in the Acts. Mathias was immediately chosen by God vnto the Apostleship by casting lots ergo by no free election of the people The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they did propound or nominate is not necessarilie to be referred to all then assembled viz. 120. but rather to the 11. Apostles there particularly reckoned and named Otherwise we should say that the apostles wiues and Mary the mother of Iesus had an interest also in this nomination and propounding which our discipliners will not in their owne platforme admit but whosoeuer propounded those two men sure it is they which propounded them did not elect them for they were referred to Gods owne election by lot Shew which of them thou hast chosen If this example must alwaies be followed then the Church shall onely and alwaies haue the nomination of two to bee chosen but shall haue none election which neuerthelesse is the thing shot at Thē also shall there need no fasting nor any ordination by imposition of hands for neither of these was here vsed If they say somthing herein was ordinarie something extraordinarie why do they then by this place vrge a constant practise of the church and let them prooue also by scripture how much is ordinarie how much extraordinarie not to be pursued by vs. But let vs see also what constant practise agreeing with the other two places or with your own vsage you can find in the election of the 7. chosen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that were to serue table Acts. 6 They were such as the Lord gaue none expresse cōmandement to be ordained but grew by a collateral occasiō viz. the grudge of the Greekes against the Hebrewes and the toile which the Apostles through the nūber of beleeuers were drawen into ministring alone to all the holy supper at their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Loue-feasts They were but 7. chosen for the Church at Ierusalem vpon that special occasion to serue tables at the Loue-feasts The course of circūstances in which feasts is ceased therfore this choise is an vnfit rule to exact all elections of church officers vnto Because these seuen called commonly Deacons were chosen must ministers of the word needs iumpe iust with them Must all officers needs haue all circumstances in their elections alike What Logike is this thus to reason à disparatis adidem The 12. Apostles in this action called the disciples together propounded perswaded the matter told them the number qualities of those men to be chosen but for auoiding suspition of partialitie appeasing the mutinie permitted the whole electiō to the number of the disciples And shal we therfore in all elections giue to the wisest learnedst BB. and other ministers of the Church no further direction sway or interest but permit all elections the maner of thē to the rest of the Church why this our platformers themselues will not like For their presbyteries haue the entire nomination and election of all and the people must allow of their choise if a cause sufficient bee notalleaged though all els were against it Of the sufficiencie of which cause the eldership themselues be iudges sauing that the latest platformes for choise of a minister wil haue some other minister neere to lay on handes with the laie elders least also they should seeme to giue that functiō which none of thēselues haue In this action 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euen all the whole multitude was called and vsed in election but women children and youths the discipliners themselues will exclude from giuing voices When the multitude had chosen thē they presented thēto the Apostles but our elderships wil first haue both nominatiō election and thē they wil present the elected to the people Here neither the Apostles nor the multitude are said to haue fasted and therfore not to be presumed where the holy ghost in wisedome hath omitted to mention it as themselues reason when it serueth their turnes But the examples Acts 13.14 not touched by the Demonstrator do mention fasting the platformers do necessarily require it in all ecclesiastical elections The apostles after praier made without further inquisition or examination into the persons do only lay hands vpon thē the ministerie of the word sacraments being included in their apostleship But our platformers I hope will not refuse hereupon all examination of those who first are elected by the multitude and yet being meere lay elders wil presume to impose hands not onely vpon Deacons but also vpon ministers of the word function offices which themselues haue not this they do where their discipline is alredie planted but where it is to be planted there I thinke as the people shall chuse so shall they also ordaine impose hands vpon the ministers then they vpō the elders the ministers elders both vpō the Deacons after which time the people for euer shall giue vp this office Here by the way we note that this notable Apostolicall Church established at Ierusalem was without any lay ministring Eldership which might impose hands and ordaine Deacons which they would not so long haue lacked if Christ by dic ecclesiae had so long afore appointed and commaunded it by which foundation laid thus I retort The constant practise of the Apostles church must be folowed In the election of church officers Act. 6.1 appeareth no

Papists had written against popular election Absurditie of the Demonstrator popular electiō is neuer the truer If none but the papists did first extirpat heresies then were those heresies to haue likelihoode of trueth To the Assumption But none c. Many orthodoxe old and new writers write against their popularity of election and against their positions As for arguments they are plentiful in scriptures Councels Fathers besides the practise welneere of al the world of Christianitie The 1. obiection of the Demonstrator They were vnder the crosse and fewe in number Ergo the fitnesse sooner knowen and easier espied Demonstration The Answere of the Demonstrator The gospel was dispersed throughout al Asia Affricke Europe and coulde keepe lesse together Ergo that maketh for vs. Although the gospel was sowen in Asia Remonstrance with reply Affricke Europe Neuerthelesse it is not so much to haue it sowen in many places as to haue it deepely suncken in many persons and generally receiued Ergo this maketh rather against then for you And therfore could not be such vniforme assemblies as immediatly in Ierusalem vpon the assension of our sauiour multitudinis credentium erat cor vnum via vna The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator There are many hypocrytes Demonstration Ergo dangerous to grant elections vnto them The Answere of the Demonstrator True but it is a principle in hypocrisie to be forward in elections and such actions Belike the demonstrator hath read ouer the Aphorismes of hypocrisie Remonstrance with reply or an hypocrite himselfe being a man so forward to set forward these elections sauouring of popularitie Me thinketh I may mislike the answere it should be thus shaped to his owne obiection because hypocriticall men are many in the church Ergo many such may set forward such elections The argument doth not hold à coniugatis but that hypocriticall electors will make hypocritical elections and eligible hypocrites and fewe others in their church The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator They had knowledge our people are ignorant Demonstration The Answere of the Demonstrator Our people would haue knowledge if they had teaching they cannot choose worse then the Bishops and the patrons Our people would c. This is an apparant digression and no answere to himselfe Remonstrance with reply Our people haue not the knowledge together with those gifts the primitiue christians had howbeit if the patrons might present and the Bishops freely without suite in lawe choose you should finde the commoditie of Bishops election As for patrons some I know most honourable most vertuous and religious patrons who wil not to gaine a world of commodities defile their hands with pitch of briberie as for cormorant patrones whereof some I knowe no man meaneth to patronize their sacrilegious impietie The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator The Church was noe then established Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator That is vntrue for the Apostles did better establish without the helpe of the Christian Magistrate then we with the helpe of them Nay it is most infallibly true that colourably you now obiect Remonstrance with reply For the Church was not established concerning ciuill gouernment and Magistracie which did persecute the Church and killed the children of it in manner altogether massacring the Christian professors howbeit the church was established concerning faith and spirituall gouernment not concerning the visible societie and pollicie of the Church externally being then vnder persecution And therefore the Illation is false and erroneous to say the Apostles did better establish the outward face of Christianitie and practise of religion then Christian Kings and Queenes in their tender care and maintenance of the Churches pollicie But hereof may be gathered howe gladly these men would seclude all Christian Princes from rule in matters Ecclesiastical as I haue afore noted The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator Drunkards and Papistes will choose like themselues the best disposed are fewest Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Such are not of the Church but without 1. Cor. 5.12 v. Knowne drunkards are in the Church but not of the Church Remonstrance vnlesse they repent As for the eldership to reforme the people which you would haue is for the multitude to reforme the multitude And as for the schooles of the Prophets if you meane the Vniuersities which you must send your Ministers vnto they will send fewe enough to you their maintenance being taken away by those whome you haue organized all might come to barbaritie and Turcisme The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator Paule commaundeth Timothie to lay handes on no man rashly Timoth. 1.5 cap. 22. v. ergo One did it Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Hee teacheth what to doe for his parte though others would be rashe hee should not ioyne with them He teacheth him his dutie Remonstrance and in him all others that haue power to ordeine Ministers to do nothing with temeritie Looke vpon the place S. Paul speaketh singulariter to Timothie not to any Eldership This interpretation is but a newe tricke of one of their Patriarkes in his Ecclesiasticall discipline neuer heard of afore and is conuinced by the pregnant circumstances of the place and the vniforme consent of all ancient writers thereupon For the epistle is directed to Timothie himselfe to the end to teach him how to demeane himselfe in the Church Immediatly afore this place he giues precepts how widowes should be maintained and what proportion of allowance he was to make vnto ministers howe Timothie should receaue an accusation against a minister what course he should vse in admonitions and rebukes according to the diuersitie of sinnes Then Paul adiureth him most earnestly that in the exercise of his office in this behalfe he obserue an equall course of iustice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without all preiudicate opinion or leaning to one side more then to another viz. preiudice and partialitie two wordes iudiciall and two things that are the very banes of all vpright administration of iustice Then followeth after iurisdiction this precept of ordination wherein he ought not to deale rashly lest otherwise his sinnes whome he so ordeineth be imputed vnto him the ordeiner And after a litle answereth an obiection that might be made howe it shoulde bee possible for him to knowe afore hande other mens sinnes that in this behalfe he might keepe him selfe blamelesse Therefore Paul to take this away saith That his meaning is not of sinnes that such shall commit afterward but of such as were committed afore which could no more be hidden then a mans good conuersation by past could be so that by the whole course appeareth that the other mens sinnes whereof in ordinations he is willed to beware lest he communicate with them and be made guiltie of them are the sinnes of him that is to haue imposition of handes and not any eldership sinnes by reason of their rash ordeining of others which these men had

charge wherewith they are credited or Officials for the offices they beare are most Christian names else why doe themselues so often call their Tetrarches Church officers a name not founde in Scripture neither discipline in their sense nor classis nor prouincial or nationall Synode As for the pillar the Minor leaneth vpon to proue their offices and practise to be deriued from Antichrist it is weake and vnstable viz. All founded vpon the Canon lawe is grounded vpon a dunghill Some dunghill scholler made this Minor to diminish and detract from the authorized Canons of the Church vnder the odious name of the Popes lawe For the Canon lawe which is reteined with vs is nothing but the olde Canons of the Primitiue Church and such other approoued Iudicials in matters Ecclesiasticall as be neither contrarie to the prerogatiue royall nor to the lawes and statutes of the Realme and which had bene vsed before the making of that acte of Parliament 25. H. 8. are therefore since by diuerse actes in K. Ed. 6. daies and in her Maiesties honoured with the name of the kings Ecclesiastical lawes and the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme and they are in like sorte vsed in the Ecclesiasticall Consistories of most of the reformed Churches in Germanie as they are here who doe as litle esteeme the Pope as we can doe Neither are some of those which were set downe by the Popes authoritie therefore vsed of vs as binding this Realme in respect of the ordeiner any more then Italy Fraunce or Spaine be said to acknowledge the authoritie of the Romane emperours ouer them for vsing the ciuill lawes For we doe therefore onely practise them because they concurre with the former statute enacting them and being set downe by good aduise are found equal and profitable Those who disdaine them in respect of the author doe shewe therein as witlesse curiositie as if they would vrge vs to abandon all printing because it was deuised first at Harlem by a Papist or ceasse to defende our selues with gunnes for that a Monke inuented them But if the matter retained displease them as not conuenient nor according to rules of equitie let all the wisest of them take all the seuerall cases propounded throughout that lawe and giue diuerse or cleane contrarie decisions to that which is there giuen and they shall thereby easily finde themselues either ridiculous absurde or vniust lawgiuers The most of them are such as haue happened may happen in Church gouernment If they can finde the decision of them in the worde of God directly we will then abandon all other Canons and onely followe theirs The Church may not be without lawes in externall gouernment and to referre all to the gouernours will were a steppe to all tyrannie and insolencie As for the slaunder to call Christian Magistrates or once to compare them to maisters of the stewes they being the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme is a more filthie and beastly phrase of speech Aconitum spunia Cerberi then Cerberus the hound of hell could spewe But we are too wel acquainted with these fowle blasphemous mouthes it is but sutable to the opinion they cary of the supreme Christian Magistrates and of their lawes Ecclesiasticall or Common The 4. Demonstration They that being inferiors doe tyrannize ouer their superiors Demonstration ought not to rule the Church but such as they doe tyrannize ouer the ministers to whom they are inferiours by the Canon lawe ergo they ought not to rule the Church This is not the issue in question Remonstrance for we say not that they are to rule the Church but are ministers of iustice according to the ordinances of the Church The Maior is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet true so long as they doe tyrannize ouer their superiours they ought not to rule the Church To the Minor therefore They who execute their office with correspondence to their dutie and according to lawes doe not tyrannize neither are they in place of iustice inferiour but are inferiour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in respect of the dignitie of the office of the ministerie But this office of ministerie doth not alwaies worthie the person aboue euery calling though not so sacred else should euery ministers person be aboue any Lorde or the Prince himselfe that chiefly dealeth but in matters of this life Besides surrogatus sapit naturam surrogantis If then the bishop who doth appoint them be aboue an ordinarie minister then are they also In place of iustice a meane Gentleman is superiour to a Duke conuented and so is a poore Constable in matters of his office by reason of them who giue the authoritie and whose persons they beare But thus we turne it home againe vpon themselues They that being inferiours doe gouerne the superiours according to their owne will Retortion without any direction of lawes they doe proudly tyrannize and consequently neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church But your Lay elders being of inferiour calling as your selues confesse to your Pastors and Doctors and much more to the whole Congregation doe gouerne them euen to the displacing or censuring them according to their owne wils and discretions without all direction of lawes which is tyrannie and their platformes doe abrogate all lawes but of their owne making which are not yet framed and in deede experience teacheth that their Consistories will not willingly tie themselues to any set lawes in their gouernment which maketh their decrees concerning diuers persons where the matter neuerthelesse is the selfe same to be so diuers and contrarie ergo Your laie elders doe proudly tyrannize and so neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church The 5. Demonstration They who liue by the faults of men are not fit to rule the Church Demonstration But all Chancellors Officials Commissaries doe so Ergo To the Maior It is very false if it bee meant per accidens to liue by faults Remonstrance as here it must needs be for in this sort doe all iudges iudiciall officers and ministers hauing fees liue by the wrong that the one partie doth to the other So the clerkes of the crowne of gaole deliuerie and of peace doe liue by the pleas against traitors murderers felons and other malefactors c. and yet lawfull in the common weale why not the like in the Church Nemo militat proprijs stipendijs To the Minor O rash and temerarious iudgement What art thou that iudgest an other mans seruant you may remember Horace saying Mendax infamia terret Quem nisimendosum mendacem They do not liue but by honest fees though they grew by occasion of faults as the least part of them in deed doth if any doe and therefore the Minor very false and slaunderous The matters whereupon their fees doe rise are either beneficiall tending to the title and maintenance of the ministerie or testamentarie tending to the performance of the deads will or

hath described 1. Tim. 5.17 Ergo There is not so much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any colourable description of Elders in these wordes Remonstrance The place giueth commendation and great maintenance to all pastoral elders that gouerne their flocks wel but honourable commendation of those who with earnestnes labour in the worde So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth your elders haue not any maintenance of your Churches but liue of their craftes and trades and therefore yours cannot be there meant which is spoken specially to establish large maintenaunce by the Church toward the Elders there vnderstood The 5. Demonstration or Allegation There is no Church which can stand without their Eldershippe or Councell Demonstration Ign. ad Tral ep The wordes are Remonstrance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is the Elders or Ministers or Pastorall elders are a senate or fellowship of the Apostles of Christ without it there is no Congregation holie or sacred nor synode of Saintes and so say wee But this is a great distaunce from your Laicall Eldership this is our holie and sacred Conuocation or Chapter-house or whatsoeuer Ecclesiasticall assemblie and meeting It appeareth by sundry places of Ignatius that the Presbyteri hee speaketh of did preach and minister the Sacraments Ergo he meaneth not of yours These whom he meaneth he saith are successors of the Apostles which hitherto I haue not heard any of you challenge for your Elders that be Lay men The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstration Tertul. de bape It belongeth onely to the Bishop to baptise and to the Elder and Deacon vpon the Bishops license I would to God you would as well doe after this golden sentence of Tertull. as you can memoratiuely recite the same Remonstrance the sence and sentence maketh all for vs. Dandi habet ius summus sacerdos id est Episcopus dehinc presbyteri diaconi non tamen sine Episcopi authoritate propter eeclesiae honorem quo saluo salua pax est As the Bishop is a superior minister or priest so Presbyter an inferiour minister or priest for your elders you may go seeke for you permit neither your elder nor deacon to baptize The 7. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Ierō con Lucife Neither elder nor Deacon haue right but vpon commaundement of the Bishop so much as to baptize The words Inde venit vt sine Chrismate Episcopi iussione neque presbyter neque diaconus ius habeant baptizandi That is Remonstrance pastorall elder or priest the wordes immediatly antecedent speake of the authoritie of the Bishop or chiefe priest who doeth authorize other priests vt enim accepit quis ita dare potest He speaketh of Chrisme aswell as of the Bishops licence alluding to a particular custome this cannot serue your turnes for you holde that no Bishop may debarre you of licence to preach or vse your ministery your elders and deacons may not minister the sacraments though they were licenced as your selues thinke The 8. Allegation or Demonstration Elders fell away vpon the ambition of the Teachers Demonstra Amb. 1. Tim. 5. Ambrose saith Synagoga postea ecclesia seniores habuit Remonstrance Ambrose saith that state of the church for all that was tollerable Both the Synagogue and afterward the Church had Elders or Seniors before any Christian magistrate had the preeminence in the Church but no such elders as you doe platforme For these gaue but counsell yours do absolutely gouerne ordeine censure and all things sauing preaching and ministring Sacraments The 9. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Possidon in vita August Valerius the Bishop did contrary to the Apostolicall custome in appoynting Augustine to preach being an elder The wordes are Remonstrance contravsum consuetudinem ecclesiarum Aphricanarum against the vse and custome of the Aphrican churches not of the Orientall Churches where the vse was so A custome particular misliked also by many of the fathers you would make Apostolicall and generall The 10. Allegation or Demonstration After Arrius was conuict of heresie Demonstrat Socr. li. 5. ca. 22. Elders might not preach it was so decreed Caluins quotation is lib. 9. Socrat. tripartitae historiae Remonstrance Alexandriae tantùm institutum fuit whence you borrow this onely at Alexandria this was ordeyned because Arrius had troubled the Church there Is not this curtalling of places an euident signe of the euill conscience you haue if you knowe it or of ignorance ioyned with boldnesse if you know it not and yet alledge it The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Bucer de reg Chri. lib. 1. The number of Elders of euery Church must bee increased according to the multitude of the people Bucer by the words lib. 1. cap. 8. speaketh of Curatorum ecclesiae seniorum Remonstrance that is pastoral elders as the marginall note vnderstandeth the Ministers Ministros ecclesiae sarcire oportere quicquid fuerit neglectum The 12. Allegation or Demonstration Martyr 12. Rom. lamenteth that they were fallen out of the Church Demonstration that the name scant remaineth Martyr citeth S. Ambrose complaint of the want or defect of certaine Elders for aduise Remonstrance who were for a time in some Church the Magistrate being vnchristian but you finde not that they were called Presbyteri as signifying an office which title you giue to yours and the places where Presbyteri be named you apply to them The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Certaine of the people were ioyned with the Pastor in Church-gouernment Demonstration Idem 12. Co. 1. Euen so at this day Remonstran in euery parish are the like assistants to gather and imploy the almes of the Church and for other prouisions The Puritanes know not their owne Church or common wealth and yet the meaning is but of Churches in great cities and Cathedrall The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Demostran Caluin instit li. 4. cap. 3. sect 8. There were Elders in the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He said it is no necessary Demonstration to proue it Remonstrance he can neuer proue that they had iurisdiction or ought to haue of censures of ordinations of lawe making and all other gouernment or that they were Lay men and had no maintenance by the Church or that they were annuall or biennall officers as the Consistorials doe now preach The 15. Allegation or Demonstration D. Whitgift pag. 638. confesseth there were Elders Demonstr Some were Seniors as Ambrose speaketh of in the Church before any Christian magistrate was pro tempore Remonstrance for a stay good aduise in the Church but none of this medley of perpetuity and with such gouernment and authority as is now platted The 16 Allegation or Demonstration If the platforme to Timothie be for al Churches Demonstration then must Elders be in al. 1. Timoth. 6.14 But the first is true Ergo the second This is

answered before cap. 1. not to concerne any pollicie of Elders Remonstrance but to keepe the general commandement of the lawe of the spirite of life they might as well say that the commaundement to drinke no water were meant by that place The holie ghost hath there warily vsed the singuler number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which nowe you woulde make to pertaine to the perpetuitie of euerie thing conteined in that Epistle if it did so yet could it not helpe you for there is no such commandement for anie such Elders in that whole Epistle no nor anie mention by the way of them The 17. Demonstration That which is in euery ministers commission must be in euery congregation Demonstration But the ordination and practise of this office Mat. 28.20 is so or els they ordeined elders without warrant from Christ Ergo they must be in euery congregation Ex nihilo nihil fit Of nothing commeth nothing Remonstrance This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a great space betwene these two go 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make Disciples or teache all nations Ergo make vnpreaching Presbyters in all nations This the Demonstrationer made the Ministers Commission afore and is it nowe the Commission for vnteaching Elders to be ordained in euery place The reason of the Minor is false for neyther made they any such Elders in euery congregation neither doeth their authoritie for ordinations and sundry other points of Church-gourernment depend only vpon that Commission which respected the ministery of the word and Sacraments The 18. Demonstration Where a Bishop must be Demonstration Elders must be A Bishop must be in euery Congregation Ergo Elders This Demonstration is no guest but an ordinarie seruant Remonstrance for this serueth your turne often 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The one of these is no better knowne then the other there must be parish Bishops Ergo parish elders And it followeth not by any coherence any more then this There must bee a Constable in euery towne Ergo 24. Aldermen The 19. Demonstration If the Apostles established one vniforme order in al Churches Demonstration then there must be Elders in euery congregation but the first is true Ergo the second For S. Paul saith thus I teach in all Congregations To the Antecedent This is the fallacie of consequence Remonstrance The Apostles did stablish vniformitie for essentiall points of discipline but left not any policy for Lay elders The consecution of the maior is false Can there be none vniformity except such your Elders were euery where appoynted who indeede were nowhere To the Assumption S. Paul might very well leaue all pointes of wholesome doctrine all good order for the Church but neuer institute the particularities of your discipline The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator God hath giuen soueraigne authoritie ouer the Church to Christian Magistrates Demonstration which these Elders would abridge Answere of the Demonstrator No more then the eldership in Dauids time did abridge Dauids soueraignty ouer all Israel for his gouernment is temporall theirs is spirituall O foolish answere Remonstrance and fond conceite of an imaginable Elderdership in Dauids time who can abide this Master Elders haue spirituall gouernment but Kings and Queenes noursing fathers and mothers of the Church haue but ciuill and temporall gouernement onely ô tempora ô mores or as the learned discourse saith The prince is but a feeling member of the church the heads and chiefe gouernors are the ecclesiasticall Aldermen or presbyterie of the Church That yours abridge the Queenes soueraigntie is a little touched afore and shall more plainlie be shewed when you are at leasure to heare The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration Gualt 1. Cor. 5. denieth the presbyterie to be needfull vnder a christian magistrate Answer of the Demonstrator Gualter denieth excommunication to be lawfull vnder a Christian magistrate He is as partiall as D. Whitgift It may be Gualter and others may denie it to be of the essence of a Church or rash excommunication Remonstrance with reply then the which nothing is more Anabaptisticall or where hope of repentance is he is not partiall nor he that taketh part in a good cause As for Gualters opinion if hee vtterly denie excommunication Pro Coelio Nolo cuiusquam fortis illustris viri vel minimum erratum cum maxima laude coniungere But it is vntrue to say he simplie denieth it or if hee did erre herein doth he therefore erre in the other But if you can so soone shake off Gualter in this point for his errout as you fansie in the other then may we also reiect Caluin in a matter whereof he was first father for his error against the lawfull supremacie of Christian princes in causes ecclesiasticall The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator Demonstration The Prince hath the authoritie which the Elders had Answer That is no truer then to say the Prince hath authoritie to preach which he must see done The Eldership you say may make ecclesiasticall lawes Remonstrance with replie may censure and excommunicate In taking these from the Prince to be done by her Delegates doe you not denie her Supremacie as for any ordaining shee may euen as well as your Eldership doe it but God forbid shee should claime it as they very absurdly doe HIErgo by this grosse position the prince must waite in euery place to see the elderships their dueties done but it is certaine Ex quolibet sequitur quidlibet in maintaining this imagination as for the Prince to see it done by your Elderships is a seruilitie and no soueraigntie especially when you say and T.C. before you that the princes must subiect them selues and submit their scepters and throwe downe their crownes before the Church and for the Church you roundly interprete the Presbyterie Absurditie of the Demonstrator Princes must lieprostrate to the Presbyterie And if your Elderships in deede haue this authoritie by their right in causes ecclesiasticall which the Prince must but see done then doe not they slaunder you which say you giue to the Prince potestatem facti non iuris and so yeelde her iust as large a supremacie as the Papistes doe Demonstrations to proue the eldershippe necessarie vnder Christian princes as in the Apostles time The 1. Demonstration The lesse able the ministers are to direct in godlines Demonstration the more neede they haue of Elders but ministers nowe vnder Christian magistrates are lesse able by reason of ease and peace Ergo. To the Maior Nay the more neede they haue of preachers and labourers in the haruest Remonstrance the more neede of discreete ouerseers not those pragmaticall busie-body elders To the Minor Doe not say that Salomon forbiddeth you say the dayes are worser nowe rather then the dayes of olde for that were a foolish thing Our dayes are blessed dayes blesse God for them This fallacie is secundùm non causam vt

and be idle and busiebodies if they may haue maintenance This Eldership is no vocation by the worde of God and therefore burdensome to the Church But if the Church be not bound to mainteine them then they are none of those Elders that are worthie double honour 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour liberall mainteinance is there chiefly vnderstood as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place doe import The 4. obiection of the Demonstrator It bringeth in a newe Popedome or tyrannie in the Church Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is blasphemie to terme the gouernment so for shall wee not yeelde our obedience to the Scepter of Christ Nay it is a name full of blasphemie Remōstrance with reply and the mysterie of Antichrist to call the bable of their Eldership as they describe it by the name of the Scepter of our blessed king and Sauiour Iesu Christ and to challenge to themselues the obedience due to our Lorde Christ Nay if many Antichrists be worse then one and many tyrants more intoilerable then one then this to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and Popedomes is Mysterium iniquitatis which doeth aduaunce against Christ Hath Christ no Scepter to gouerne his Church by but in their hands Doe all denie Christ to be their king that refuse or haue not your Elderships With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions that yeelde him these premisses to conclude by The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is a kinde of Donatisme to challenge such authoritie ouer Princes Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator It is flatterie to suffer Princes to doe what they list This is Gualters obiection an enemie to discipline Gualter is no enemie to discipline Remonstrance with reply but to Anabaptisticall discipline As for this discipline in vse it is no flatterie of Princes but if your Assertion might sway we should haue flat rebellion and insurrection against al Christian Kings especially against the sacred Maiestie of our most gracious and glorious Prince What can the Papists imagine of greater waight to be holden from them then the Scepter kingdom of Christ as you do And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator It taketh away the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator No more then it did from Dauid in his time not so much as the Bishops do now for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered which the Eldership alloweth and craueth There was no such Eldership in Dauids time Remonstrance with reply Ergo no comparison betweene this and that time But this impeacheth her Maiesties Prerogatiue and preeminence giuen by all the Peeres Lords Spirituall Lords Temporall the Commons in the lower house Conuocation house to set vp a Consistorie ouer all causes and persons yea ouer herselfe For these men dreame that all sheaues must bow to their sheaues which God forbid for they are a quintessence of Eldership aboue Sunne and moone aboue the Imperial firmament It is a slander to say not so much as Bishops for Bishops haue none authoritie of iurisdiction but deriued from the Prince vnto whose regall authoritie of the crowne all commaunding superioritie is annexed But you claime other and farre greater as elsewhere is shewed The 7. obiection of the Demonstrator It transformeth the state of the Cōmon wealth into a meere popularitie Demonstrat and wil alter this gouernment Answere of the Demonstrator No for what damage commeth by this discipline to the Magistracie from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes Because the Prince must gouerne after their direction Remonstrance with reply as the learned discourse doth say The Prince shal be but a feeling member not an head or supreme gouernour of the Church Princes must cast downe their Crownes and submit their Scepters to the scepter of the Presbyterie nay which is more odious as T.C. doth apply must licke vp the dust of their feete that is of the Church which is the Presbyterie Because her Maiestie must not onely be directed by the regencie of the Eldership but vpon their iudgements corrected also They will make lawes call Synodes haue the last appellation and many such like as hath bene afore touched Finally because her Maiestie hath neither dispositiue not cōsultatiue voice she may not be priuie what the Presbyterie doeth by her owne presence or by sending her Attorney with many moe as they shall heare The 8. Obiection of the Demonstrator It will send contention and partialitie in iudgement Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator Where can it be greater then in the Bishops kingdome Yes forsooth greatest of al in the Tetrarches Popedom Remonstrance with reply But this is but to answer with recriminatiō or reaccusing one another Verily as for the Bishops ministerie it is no kingdome neither your kingdom or tetrarchie any ministery They are gouerned by lawes in al their proceedings but you wil haue selfe wil and law of your owne minde blasphemously father it vpon scripture and Gods word and so you do all most absurd and vnequal decrees of your elderships as in many particulars where they reigne is shewed The 9. obiection of the Demonstrator It wil be contemned and so good order neglected Demonstrat Answere Nay God wil procure awe to it It is the Bishops pompe and officers which deserue contempt But before in the 4. it was tyrannie Remonstrance with Reply here contemptible these are contrary God will not honour those that honour not him or who with a newe inuention glorifie themselues If the Bishops are in contempt you are the men that contemne Fastum Platonis maiore fastu As for tyrannie and contempt they are seated well in you For Psal 12. When Impij circumquaque obambulant quando exaltantur vilitas filijs hominum the worde in Hebrew is Zuloth When your Elders shal be exalted and ride vpon the Cherubims when the many or baser sort doe tyrannize it will be a contemptuous tyrannie in deede The 10. obiection of the Demonstrator All alterations be dangerous Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Neuer from Antichrist to Gods obedience this might be Stephen Gardiners Argument All alterations are dangerous Remonstrance with reply where thinges are religiously established as with vs. As for Stephen Gardiner hee made arguments De vera obedientia which you nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who alike with you impugne supremacie of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall can euer answere De mortuis nil nisi bonum pascitur in viuis liuor post fata quiescit So it should be The Assertion The Church must be ruled by the rules of Gods worde c. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon lawe Demonstration The 1. Demonstration All gouernours are to execute their authoritie by the same warrant from which they haue it But the gouernours of the Church

hath an office may not intermeddle with another Retortion A Pastor hath an other office in the Church then his Presidentship in their Eldership Ergo A pastor may not intermeddle in the Consistorie or Eldership The 5. Demonstration As the Souldier is in warfare Demonstrat so is the Church-officer in ruling of the church but the souldier entangleth not himselfe with things of this life which place Cyprian alleadgeth against a minister that became an executour of his friends will Ergo Church-officers not with things of this life To the Maior The Maior holdeth wherein the proportion is to be held Remonstrance for readines and expedition To the Minor The souldier is not to be a pragmatical fellow in other worldly affaires 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 No more the Diuine or preacher to be a worldling As for the place of Cyprian lib. 1. epi. 9. it may serue any of your elders that would encomber thēselues eyther with that or any other troublesome execution yet it is spoken of a tutorship or Gardianship which was by the Romane law more troublesome and lesse beneficial then an executorship and often times very dangerous to the state of the Tutor The 6. Demonstration Thinges of contrarie qualities cannot concurre Demonstrat The gouernment of the Church and common weale are so for they are both next speciall members of one generall the one spirituall the other temporall the one for the soule the other for the bodie Ergo To the Maior Things of contrary qualities may concurre in vno subiecto Remonstrance in one subiect not in extremities of degrees but remissiuely not in intenso gradu but the Maior is the contradiction of the Minor where you say they are speciall members of one general c. I take your meaning and not your wordes things desparated are not verifiable one of another or one of these two differences are not coincident one vpon another True it is ciuill gouernment is not Ecclesiasticall nor Ecclesiasticall ciuill Ergo say you these cannot meete in one This is most false for Morall vertues are not intellectuall nor intellectuall morall Ergo shal it follow none shall haue them both they may be in vno subiecto communi adequato not proprio Occonomie is not policie nor policie Oeconomie Ergo none can gouerne his house and priuate wealth and the common wealth also This is also false As for the addition of your Minor the one c. Ecclesiasticall gouernment is not onely spirituall which concerneth the conscience inwardly but Christian magistracie is also spirituall concerning the visible Church The other temporall It is not onely temporal vnlesse ye meane amongst the Church spiritual gouernment respecteth principally the soule not onely the soule Temporal gouernment not onely the body but secondarily toucheth the conscience and soule vnlesse you can fayne a body without a soule Here is your errour you doe not vnderstand that Christ doeth gouerne by the magistrate and minister both spiritually and externally howbeit by himselfe onely spiritually which doeth plunge you in this Turkish errour The 7. Demonstration If the whole gouernement of the Churche in particular office Demonstra and in the whole Eldershippe bee of great weight then may not a Churche officer intermedle in anie other calling But the first is true Ergo the second If you meane your imaginable Eldershippe Remonstrance and offices of your owne creation vpon your owne surmise you may conclude what you list if you meane pastoral eldership and our rightfull officers the sequele of the antecedent may iustly be denied For if the Church-gouernment be neuer so weighty yet it is not diminished by laying on the commission of some ciuill authoritie deriued especially from the supremacie of the prince Let my reason march vpon you thus If their Eldership ouer all mens doctrine and manners be too ponderous a weight for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 certaine priuate men artisans and plowe men and others for to beare then may they wel forbeare But the former is true Ergo the later The 8. Demonstration If the Apostles were vnsit for two offices both ecclesiasticall Demonstration then is the best church-gouernor vnfit for two the one of the common wealth the other of the Church But the first is true Act 6.2 Ergo This Antecedent commeth to this summe Remonstrance If the Apostles were vnfit to be Deacons and ministers then is no Christian or the best gouernour for two more different offices vnfit First the Apostles were not vnfitte for it but it for the Apostles Secondly the text speaketh not of vnfitnesse or insufficiencie but of inconueniencie or vnmeetnesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thirdly though it were vnmeete for the Apostles to leaue the ministration of the worde and to minister vnto tables because other might be founde who were meete for that place Neuerthelesse they beyng Apostles and extraordinary men might at their discretion relinquish one office and exercise another It must not necessarily follow hereupon that none being Ecclesiasticall men may beare a ciuil office amongst Christians and for Christian men To the Assumption That is denied to be expresly in the text But let the argument be drawne indifferently for vs both Either you account those two offices of Deaconrie and ministerie greater or lesse then a ciuill office and Ecclesiasticall all in one If greater why then you see that successiuely for the commoditie of the Church the Apostles vsed both If lesse howe holdeth your argument from the lesse to the greater or from the greater to the lesse sith with you the least Ecclesiasticall officer for the soule is greater then any ciuil officer for the bodie But if your reason be thus One man may not beare two hie offices both of great importance Ergo he may not beare one ecclesiastical office another ciuil the one of great the other of lesse credit The reason doth bende against your selues the Apostles did exercise one office of greater another of lesse weight for the well ordering of the Churche in their owne person For where haue you proued that they did cleane relinquish and put off the same Sith Saint Paul was carefull for collection and distribution of almes 1. Cor. 16. cap. Ergo an Ecclesiasticall person may haue in remissis gradibus both authorities in a Christian Common wealth which neither is nor ought to be secluded from the Church Goe and reconcile your selfe with your brother that writ so absurdly and confusedly de Politia Ciuili ecclesiastica for he is directly against you herein The 9. Demonstration That which was intollerable in the Papists in vs is vnlawful Demonstrat To beare both swords was intollerable in them Ergo in vs. To the Minor To beare both swords for the Q. or Prince that is Remonstrance to receiue as well temporall as spirituall iurisdiction from and for God and the Prince is not intollerable neither repugnant to the worde To vsurpe Christes office or to vsurpe

Whosoeuer be not blamelesse may bee displaced Those who breake the peace of the Church and charitie as afore are not blameles Ergo they may be displaced And againe They whose calling to the ministerie is not from heauen nor outwardly lawfull by meanes of men they may be displaced Your calling to the ministerie in this Church of England is such as being vnlawful and Antichristian as you say Ergo by your owne rules you may be displaced for you were neuer well placed and as you ought to haue beene Ex ore tuo teipsum iudico serue nequam The 2. Demonstration Men carefull to discharge their dueties without impietie cannot be displaced Demonstration Such are these ministers Ergo Here is a goodlie praise and applauding to themselues Remonstrance they haue bin careful indeede to discharge that charge that their prouinciall hath laid vpon them to trouble the Church Your Maior is not necessarily true for a man may be carefull to doe his duetie and yet by preposterous zeale be caried to heresie and schisme The 3. Demonstration To depriue Gods people of spirituall comfort is wickednesse Demonstration To put to silence such ministers is to depriue Ergo To put to silence such Remonstrance is to stoppe the mouthes of the Praecision now as of the concision of olde of whom S. Augustine speaketh super 34. Psal quare in praecisione vultis magnificare nomen Domini The Maior here is as the other next afore I haue knowen a most lewde wretch who preached so commendably that the people tooke maruellous comfort to heare him and to be instructed by him yet the most partiall of your Elderships would not haue to lerated him in the ministery The 4. Demonstration That which is scandalous is an horrible sinne Demonstration To depriue the people is scandalous Ergo To the Minor It is scandall taken and not giuen Remonstrance The people had better learne nothing then learne the sinne of disobedience These reasons are as much as if a man shoulde affirme none could preach well but Schismatikes Scilicet The 5. Demonstration They whose labours God blesseth Demonstr cannot be displaced without impietie such are the ministers Ergo God doth blesse your such labours no more then Iudas his labours Remonstrance nor so much who for a while preached the Gospell yet may a bad man cast good seede into the grounde Doe as they say not as they doe saith Christ The 6. Demonstration That which giueth the enemies cause to reioyce is an offence To displace the ministers Demonstration giueth the enemie c. Ergo If any reioyce in euill let them answere for it themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a fault Remonstrance but Bishops doe their dueties to displace schismatikes that is but per accidens that it is to the reioycing of the enemie and they will not let to reioyce if an adulterous minister also be displaced being gladde that they may say such be among vs. The 7. Demonstration That which causeth the doers to be esteemed enemies to the Gospel is an heynous sinne Demonstration such is the silencing of those Ergo I answere with that sentence of Tully Non est tanta potest as in stultorum suffragijs Remonstrance There is no such estimate or reade in a fooles voyce or suffragie They are not worthie to rule in the Church that tender more what the ill aduised say of them then they doe the peace of Christes body the Church The 8. Demonstration That which letteth wickednesse to come in must needes be a sinne Demonstration To displace the ministers doth so Ergo It followeth not vpon euery sectarie ministers displacing Remonstran This is a partiall Syllogisme and in fauour of themselues No Sir I doubt not but better come in their places if they may haue like maintenance The 9. Demonstration That which interrupteth the course of the Gospell without warrant from Gods Lawe or lawe of the land is a sinne But to displace is so Ergo Demonstra It is likely this man hath beene conuented for his schisme Remonstrance and turbulencie of spirite and woulde not bee interrupted without a warrant from heauen or the lawe of the lande there is statute lawe and Canon lawe authorized by statute to plucke vp such bryers and thornes of these Malcontents out from amiddest the land and no daunger to interrupt thereby the course of the Gospel most of them preach nothing but inuectiues against things established Is this to preach the Gospel of peace The seuenteenth Chapter Assertion ADmonition belongeth to the Eldership Demonstration The 1. Demonstration 1 That which priuate men are commanded to seek vnto being offended for redresse of the offence Matth. 18.15 that is a necessary and ordinarie way for those who publikely offend 2 That which is more auaileable to repentance 3 That which maketh men more afraide to offend 4 That which hath a greater promise to doe good 5 That without which all dueties of charitie cannot be exercised toward sinners 6 That which bridleth outragious sinnes But such is the admonition of those who carry the name of the Church vz. the Eldership Ergo admonition longeth to them One Minor serueth right well for all these propositions Remonstrance That the venerable Eldership who carie the Church and beare it vp as Atlas with his shoulders Caelum humeris tor quet stellis ardentibus aptum Must giue this admonition in publike proclamation My answere hereunto is It is a sacrilegious robbery to giue and appropriate that vnto the Eldership which is proper to the ministers of the Gospel and such as exercise lawful authoritie in the Church it maketh as much for Presbiter Iohn or Iohns Eldershippe as any of your Elderships in the Church Besides I might trauerse the maior Propositions As for example Priuate reconciliation is commanded and yet no necessarie or ordinarie way to be publikely established in the Church And if admonition be necessary doeth it hereof follow it must be done and onely done by suche an Eldership The eighteenth Chapter Assertion SVspension from the Lords supper Demonstration or from an office in the Church must be by the Eldership The 1. Demonstration Whatsoeuer is enioyned as a duetie to bee done by euery Christian man if he leaue it vndone hee is to bee compelled by the gouernour of the Church Luke 14.17.23 But if a mans brother haue anie thing against him Matth. 5.24 he is to be compelled to leaue his gift Ergo Separation from the Lords supper is warranted by the worde This Demonstration is neither compound Remonstrance nor simple Syllogisme nor in any moode and figure nor proueth the Assertion any way for must it needes follow he must be suspended Ergo by the Eldership Then thus The people must haue Sacraments ministred and preaching ergo the Eldershippe must doe it If you say it is disposed according to any moode and

figure why is there more in the conclusion then in the premisses or shewe in which 1 2 or 3. figure you haue concluded that separation by the eldership is warrantable by the word If you say the Syllogisme is hypotheticall why doe you assume the consequent to conclude the antecedent which is a Paralogisme or in very deed assuming the consequent conclude nothing to the purpose or a new and strange thing Ergo separation from the supper of the Lorde is to be done by the Eldership or is warranted by the worde In those places of Luke they were compelled to come in to the supper yea the halte the lame c. And can you hereof proue that such as are lame in soule must be suspended and kept from the Supper If you haue no better reasons then this for suspension it wil be lamely proued to be of vse in the Church the parable rather maketh against it As for the reason it selfe I haue liued long and yet neuer heard such an one made except it were in mockery The 2. Demonstration If the commandement Giue not holy thinges to dogges Demonstration is neyther properly vnderstoode of infidels nor excommunicate men then is it vnderstoode for separation of the vnwoorthie But the first is true for the Iewes knewe that holy things belonged not to such and the commaundement had beene needlesse Ergo Suspension is warranted To the Antecedent and the sequele Why not as properly to be vnderstood of them Remonstrance sith it is allegorically to be vnderstood of whomsoeuer We denie not the matter but this reason doth simply proue it Looke Erastus and your selues will mislike it If the Iewes knew that this commaundement belonged not to infidels nor to excommunicate persons they knewe more then was true for if infidels and persons excommunicate be not dogges from whom holy thinges must bee kept then much lesse are such as doe not so deepely offende to be accounted suche dogges as from whome holie things should be kept The 3. Demonstration If some deserue excommunication and some Suspension Demonstra then is this course good But some doe c. Ergo. The course is good if it be helde by them that indeede haue authoritie and iudgement in the Church if by the Eldership Remonstrance it is to be withheld The 4. Demonstration The course prescribed in the shadow must be in the bodie Demonstration in respect of substance in the spiritual cleansing for corporall vncleannes they were separated Ergo for some sinnes nowe The Argument holdeth not from the ceremony to the Gospel Remonstran The Eldership did not separate vnder the lawe ergo Eldership not vnder the gospel for it was the priests vnder the law that had iudgemēt directiō of such clensings but your selues make not your Elders to answere vnto Priests but eyther vnto Leuites or I know not what gouernours vnder the lawe The 5. Demonstration The Church cannot suffer a man vehemently suspected to continue in a publike function Demonstration But the church cannot displace such a man at the first Ergo he must be separated for a time Were it not for the ambiguitie of the worde Church Remonstrance which with you is alwayes the Church Aldermen all this may bee graunted The 6. Demonstration That which was commanded to be done to the Priest Demonstrat being a Leaper must be done to the Church officer being an offender But the one was to bee separated Ergo the other Though it may be lawful to make proportionable arguments from the lawe to the Gospel Remonstrance you may not conclude Identitatem the one by the other for that is Iudaisme And by this reason you woulde make your Elderships to answere to the Priest vnder the lawe they are as gladius Delphicus they serue to all vses and answere to all types and figures of the olde Testament For the profitable vse of Suspension 1 That which keepeth the godlie in obedience is profitable Demonstration 2 That which remoueth apparance of sinne 3 That which declareth to the worlde that the Church of God is careful to practise 4 That which exerciseth the Church in actions of religion 5 That which is a speciall meanes to procure the Lord in mercie to continue his worde vnto his Church that is profitable for the same Such is Separation Ergo You might haue bounde these fiue Demonstrations in a bundle and throwne them all away Remonstrance The question is not whether the Church in discretion may separate and suspende but whether your fashion eldership may separate or suspende not of our rightfull vse but of your abuse The best is such stuffe standeth you in little charges The nineteenth Chapter Assertion EXcommunication may not bee done but vpon great and weightie occasions Demonstration 2 It may not be done by any one man but by the Eldership the whole Church consenting thereunto The first Assertion needeth no demonstration Remonstrance but because the Demonstrator saith our church doth excōmunicate for a sixpenie matter I answere be it for an halfepeny in the very original yet it is not for that but for the contumacie aggrauating the fault iniustice as a man for default of answering perhaps afalse plea may haue an attachment or proclamation of rebelliō or outlawry come out against him Quo minor res eo maior contumacia I would aske this question if a man in their Church will not being of good abilitie giue to the poore or to the minister by any meanes and yet will thrust in among them will they not for this contumacie at last excommunicate him 1. Demon. for the first Assertion That which Christ hath ordeyned for the last remedie against sinne Demonstration may not be vsed but vpon extremitie so is excommunication 18. Math. 15. Ergo. This is no issue betweene vs and you Remonstrance we say wilfull disobedience is greatest sinne If a man doe what you can will not appeare though perhaps if he did he be guiltlesse shall he not at last be excommunicate The Lawyers call it vltimum in iurisdictione non facere The 2. Demonstration That which giueth a man ouer to Sathan may not be vsed but in great extremitie Demonstration but excommunication so doth 1. Cor. 5.5 Ergo. To the Minor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance To deliuer one to Sathan for the destruction of the flesh was but a temporarie chastisement and of extraordinarie power as is very probable though I doubt not but he which claue non errante is excommunicated and cutte from the Church is deepely in the power of Sathan The 3. Demonstration That which a man will doe in cutting off his hand that must be done in excommunication Demonstration but a man will not doe that but in extremitie Ergo. Yet it is to bee feared that if excommunication were in some of your handes Remonstrance it woulde be alwayes drawing against meane

bene retained rather then changed for a name of so strange signification as to vnderstand an Eldership by this word Church especially Christ hauing before in an other matter vsed the very worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Matth. 5. I must then also tell you that the insinuation wrapt vp in one single worde is ouer secret and mysticall for a man to builde his faith and conscience vpon for such a solemne perpetual and necessary Cōsistories establishing that is indued with so manifold and large authorities But if it were meant that the Samplar a thing well knowen should be followed wholy then is the Eldership quite ouerthrowen For not onely the Sanhedrim had as is notorious but this Church whatsoeuer that is meant in this place must haue determination of all waightie matters aswell ciuill as Ecclesiastical That this Church here must so haue it is manifest in that this place containeth a course and processe to be holden with a brother who shall in any matter scandalize or offende them But the most offences betwixt man and man growe not vpon matter Ecclesiastical but vpon matters of this life meere ciuill causes Then by this reckoning euen vnder a Christian magistrate must the Eldership haue a set Court for all matters aswel ciuil as Ecclesiasticall as the Sanhedrim did at Ierusalem least otherwise the woundes be farre greater then the plaister can couer But this dealing in ciuill matters they seeme to detest in others howsoeuer vnderhand they will embrace it or dispense with it in themselues The Sanhedrim were ordinarie Iudges of the highest Court of that nation for all politique temporall causes besides Ecclesiastical There were 72. of it there was no more such in that land and it consisted of the high Priest other Priests Leuites and the chiefe and grauest of the people If therefore they will conforme theirs vnto this then are parish Elderships abroade and all Courts of Recorde at Westminster supped vp at once in this one Consistorie of Sanhedrim and all Ecclesiasticall men shal be for euer at libertie to meddle with matters ciuil as in their owne right which were absurde Besides the Sanhedrim made lawes as Iohn 9.22 they directed Commissions foorth as to Paul in the Actes for attaching and imprisoning which the patrones of Elderships wil pretend not to like of They had none ordination no placing nor displacing of Priestes or Leuites nor yet censures of excommunication for any thing I can yet reade sufficient to satisfie mee Shall then the Eldership haue no such authorities If it be saide the two former were corruptions First I woulde haue it prooued then I answere that Caluine maketh the whole Sanhedrim it selfe but a corruption of that state Lastly they must graunt either that Christ alluded not vnto it at all nor made it any Samplar for his Church or else made it a perfect samplar entierly and alwayes euen vnder a Christian magistrate to be followed for we finde none exceptions in Scripture Howe then it may be followed in some part and despised in an other let the first deuisers discusse The 2. Demonstration That which S. Paul enioyned the Church to do when they came together may not be done by one man Demonstrat But he commaunded them to excommunicate the incestuous person Ergo. There is an aequiuocation in the worde Doe in the Maior and it is false Remonstrance as is shewed But I distinguish vpon the Minor Paul commaunded them onely to denounce and publish not to excommunicate The wordes are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I as absent in bodie but present in spirit haue alreadie decreed and iudged as if I were present in the Name of our Lorde Iesus Christ c. from whom this braunch of his authoritie is deriued Ius excommunicandi the right of excommunication was in himselfe Howbeit the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You being congregated or assembled together and my spirit with the power c. argueth the presence of the people a full Congregation to denounce an excommunication not the right or interest to excommunicate in all As for the presence of the people it is required now at denunciation But what were all the people here of the Presbyterie or had they none such For here all are mentioned to whom he writ How doeth this prooue the Eldership to haue such power or to be necessarie in euery Church if they had none Eldership The 3. Demonstration That which hath neede of greatest aduise and authoritie Demonstrat is not to be done by one man But so is excommunication Ergo. To the Maior Many instances may be framed to this Preaching of the Gospel Remonstrance prophecying 1. Corinth 14. ministration of Baptisme and the Lords supper supreme authoritie and iudgement of a King and many other matters of great importance cannot be done but by one man at one time To the Minor Excommunication is not greater then absolution which is also to be done by one man To saue a soule is greater then to destroy a soule and yet by the preaching of Peter being one man were added vnto the Church three thousand soules The worke of our redemption is but one mans worke the greatest worke You haue no skill of the olde rule nullum proprium datur in gradu superlatiuo And may not one mans aduise directed by lawe 5. Topic. be more sounde then an hundreth running on head and but otherwise vnlearned The 4. Demonstration They must excommunicate who are to deale in other parts of discipline Demonstrat but the other are not exercised by one Ergo neither this This is obscurum per obscurius or to begge that which is in question still This defaceth themselues Remonstrance for Deacons deale in other parts of their discipline and yet being discipliners are none of the Eldership And I neuer heard afore they might excommunicate Cathechizing preaching teaching publicke praying baptizing and celebrating the Supper blessing of marriages c. are parts of the Discipline yet exercised by the doctor alone or pastour alone To the Minor There is none of these offices which are mainteinable in our Church but may be executed by one if it shall seeme best for the commoditie and seruice of the Church The 5. Demonstration As it was amongst the Iewes so it must bee in the Church for euer Demonstrat as it appeareth by this for it is translated from them to vs as the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being by corrupt imitation called Sanhedrim by the Rabbynes doeth import and had nothing ceremoniall in it But it was executed by the Church amongst them and not by one Iohn 9.22 Ergo the Church is to excommunicate and not one man Here the Demonstrator leaueth off his Christianitie and will become a Iewe Remonstrance and erect the Iewish policie of gouerning the Church To the Maior By the Iewes you may meane either the Iewish Synagogue or the Apostles and disciples in Iewrie The later you cannot

meane for the practise of their Religion and the outward profession was not authorized If you meane the former say plainely you meane Sanhedrim or Synagoga if Sanhedrim that either as politicall onely or political and Ecclesiastical together and that againe either as the first institution supposed by some or as the deprauation was at the comming of Christ for what was that else but a mixt and compound Presbyterie as in Christs time And then Christ should send vs to the Synagogue which Caluin liketh not and wee should require a gift and an altar as it is Matth. 5.24 v. So this is the greatest improbabilitie in the worlde viz. that as it was amongst the olde or latest Iewes so it must bee in Christs Church Now vnto the reason of the Maior That it is translated vnto vs from them c. You must proue the translation and shewe in one demonstration time place c or any other circumstance to euince it or prooue the erection or ordination of this discipline in steade of that Otherwise to say there was an allusion vnto that or a respectiue looking of Christ vpon that is but a meere collusion with Gods trueth To say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was a session of 72. with the prince c was the Image of your imagined Presbyterie especially a corruption and not to be founde in Scripture but in the Thalmud is to carie away the matter with a bolde forehead and impudent outfacing This I haue also spoken vnto afore in this Chapter To the Minor This is not ad idem For it is one thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 another thing with vs to be excommunicate as for the place of Iohn 9. it deciphreth not whether one or many had authoritie to cast out of the Synagogue but that a decree was so made that he should be cast out not telling how or by how many it was to be executed Finally in saying the Sanhedrim had nothing ceremoniall belike it had the more iudiciall or morall whether it were the one or other it is questionlesse howe it was a corruption of a better thing but caried not the resemblance of the thing which you would haue as is sufficiently afore shewed If Iudicial we are no Iewes and therefore not tied to it if Morall then shew the Commandement and retaine it not by peece meele but either wholy or if but in part say you breake therein the Morall lawe of God The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Cyprian lib. 3. ep 10. would doe nothing in his charge without counsel of Elders Demonstrat and consent of people His meaning is he would do nothing me a priuatim sententia Remonstrance by any domesticall determinations but with the priuitie and counsell and consent of the cleargie that is but in consistorie openly or which was consulted and concluded vpon in Synode publickely before so that nothing should be preiudiciall But these were Ministers that assisted him a Bishop The 7. Demonstration or Allegation The Elders and other officers haue power to absolue as wel as the Bishops Demonstrat Cypr. epist 14. Remonstrance Lib. 3. epist 14. You quote not the booke as for the place it maketh against the presumption of your Elders or any pastoral Elders who gaue ius communicationis without the leaue of the Bishop as certaine then did As for the wordes manus impositionem Episcopi cleri it strengtheneth the hande of authoritie in a Bishop who is perpetual President of his clergie The 8. Allegation or Demonstration For asmuch as absolution longeth vnto all I dare not doe it Demonstrat Idem epist 19. Remonstrance Cyprian saith Praeiudicare ego solum mihi rem communem vendicare non audeo In case the absolution of certaine did concerne many as wel as himselfe he would not doe that to restore the offenders to their state The 9. Allegation or Demonstration If there be any that hath done such a fault that is to be put away from partaking prayer of the Church c. Demonstrat Tertul. apolog cap. 39. there doe beare rule certaine approoued Elders of the Church The wordes Summum futuri iudicij praeiudicium est Remonstrance si quis ita deliquerit vt à communicatione orationis conuentus omnis sancti commercij relegetur praesident probati quique seniores honorem istum non pretio sed testimonio adepti The wordes following giue not the censure of excommunication to these Elders or arbiters any time much lesse perpetually if at that time of persecution they had a censure ouer maners But let it be prooued that they were not Ministers of the worde and Sacraments but meere annual officers and without maintenance of the Church as yours are The 10. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat It helpeth much to make the partie ashamed that he be excommnnicate by the whole Church Augustin lib. 3. contra epistol Parmen the Donat. as also in his bookes of Baptisme against Donatists often Tunc timore percutitur pudore sanatur cum ab vniuersa Ecclesia anathematizatum se cernens Remonstrance so are the wordes when the whole Church shall expell and blame him by their iudgement also as the magistrate by his owne censure The 11. Allegation or Demonstration The Elders haue interest in other censures Demonstrat Hierom epist 1. ad Demetriadē and the Church it selfe in excommunication The wordes are We speake not of all but of such as sometimes the Church it selfe blameth Remonstrance whom sometime it casts away and against whome the censure of Bishops Presbyterorum viz. of Ministers is sharpe Here is no speciall mention of excommunication nor interest of any vnto it much lesse the interest of lay Elders Wee graunt that Bishops had the assistance of Ministers about them both in censures and other matters and so may haue but this argueth not your Elderships interest nor that a Bishop alone may not doe it where the order of the whole Church hath so receiued it The 12. Demonstration or Allegation Demonstrat Bucer de reg Christ li. 1. ca. 9. Paul accuseth the Corinthians because the whole Church had not excommunicate the incestuous person The words are Remonstrance Quod non incestum illum consortio suo eiecissent Because the Corinthians were swollen and had kept companie with such an incestuous person But if the whole Church shoulde doe it then there needes none Eldership neither is this their authoritie otherwise the Church might not vsurpe it from them And if it be the whole Churches the Eldership may not preiudicate them by their determinations aforehand For if they disagree whether shall stand in force The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat P. Mart. 1. cor 5. The Elders had the gouernment in excommunication P. Martyr saith there were two sorts of Elders Remonstrance the one which did teach and minister the Sacraments and did gouerne with the Bishops which Elders we now haue who

exercise the censure of excommunication as they are called vnto it As for the second they were not vnlike our Church wardens or Sidemen if any such were which I rather beleeue not The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Idem ibidem It is dangerous to permit to one man Hee doeth not say It is vnlawfull for one to doe it Remonstrance neither can it be dangerous in open Consistorie being directed by lawe when wherefore and against whom to doe it for so it is lesse dangerous then if many had to doe in it going onely of head and without all forme or direction of lawe as is vsed by your Elderships The 15. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Caluin instit li. 4. c. 11. sect 6. It openeth a way to tyrannie and abrogateth the Ecclesiastical Senate ordeined by Christ It is false For vnder a Christian Prince and pastorall Elders the spirituall iurisdiction is exercised lawfully without tyrannie Remonstrance Why bring you not Cartwr also to proue it Caluin was the first in all the world that erected such a Senate The 16. Allegation The Bishops of themselues if they excommunicate doe it ambitiously contrary to the Canons See Bucer against Gropper Ephes 4. de animi cura Demonstrat Idem Instit 4. li. 12. cap. Sect. 6. and Swinglius in Ecclesiast According to your quotation I finde no such place in Caluin Remonstrance When you alledge thus in grosse you must not looke to be answered in particular As for the Bishops excommunication it is according to S. Pauls practise 1. Corinth 5. where he excommunicated Hymeneus and Alexander 1. Tim. 1. ca. The 17. Allegation Demonstrat See the Abstract pag. 165. It is forbidden by that filthie puddle the Canon lawe That is filthily spoken Remonstrance If the Abstracter had vnderstoode the lawes hee bringeth hee might haue founde an answere where he found the obiection But is this with our Demonstrator a good argument The Canon law forbiddeth it Ergo vnlawful It so forbiddeth Priestes mariage and the Communion in both kindes Are they therefore vnlawfull The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator The right of excommunication was in S. Paul and not in the rest Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator He gaue onely the direction otherwise if they had not done it hee had remained vnexcommunicate If they neuer had denounced and published the excommunication yet S. Paul had neuerthelesse excommunicated him Remonstrance with reply and also the chastisement had proceeded on him And might they lawfully haue disobeyed the Apostles iudgement or crossed his determination The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Christ gaue Peter and euery Apostle power to binde and loose which the interpreters expound excommunication Demonstrat Matth. 18. Answere of the Demonstrator That was power of preaching in denouncing Gods iudgement or pronouncing his mercies not of this action It is to be vnderstoode of both Remonstrance with reply the wordes are almost all one Iohn 20.22 v. Matth. 16.20 v. and Matth. 18. Albeit the place includeth that binding and loosing which is by preaching of the worde it doeth not exclude binding and loosing which is in excommunication and absolution by power of the word See Chrysostome super Matth. 16. What impudencie is this to denie that an Apostle had authoritie to excommunicate who could take life and sight away from an offender But see howe hee contrarieth himselfe For if this be not meant of excommunication why doe you afore bring it to proue that your Eldership is thereby authorized to excommunicate The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator Paul did excommunicate Hymenaeus and Alexander Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator That is he was but moderatour of the action or did pronounce it euen so Ambrose and the fathers did Nay Remonstrance with reply hee did it without consent of the Church of Ephesus for there was some more castigation vnderstoode and emplied in those words 1. Timoth. 1.20 v. I haue deliuered them to Sathan The argument doeth hold good S. Paul 1. Cor. 5. did it and seconded the action Ergo S. Paul was alone a doer in the action If without Scripture or reason a man may surmise and adde what hee list and when hee list then we may also aswell say that the whole senate of Rome consented with him in that action You finde no consent of Eldershippe or people in Ambroses action requested Either leaue falsifying and mangling or giue ouer demonstrating Conclusion IF the Demonstrator cannot neither as yet hath shewen by the light of nature clearenesse of reason report of historie allegation of Councell testimonie of fathers grounde of lawe euidence of Scripture nor euer shall be able to proue by necessarie demonstration any exacte platteforme for particularities of gouernment and externall Church policie that Christ hath prescribed any such foure Tetrarchies of speculatiue Doctor who must teach and not applie any such abstractiue Pastor who must exhort and not teache any such gouerning Elder who may neither exhort nor teache any such Deacon whose deaconshippe is distribution to the poore onely that is a meere corporall office and no attendance on the ministerie any such tumultuary election to bee perpetuated by the common people and their approbation of ministers election any such prophanitie of ordination and censuring by lay Elders any such Democracie in the Church or equalitie of all to be parishe Bishops any such indefatigable continuall residence of Pastors on the place without naturall or legall dispensation for absence vpon any occasion any such laicall or mixt Aldermanshippe or Eldershippe ouer all mens doctrine manners and matters in the Church any such censure of admonition suspension excommunication by a companie of Church Aldermen as in their owne right Then let the Demonstrator blush and be ashamed of so many fabulous narrations absurd collections out of text brutish reasons so many and so many falsifications of authorities childish paralogismes and anapodicticall or vndemonstrable demonstrations and let him bee touched in conscience and repent of all his slaunderous and calumnious speaches wherewith hee hath blasphemed this Church of Englande And in the name of God let our Church be gouerned still by rules of Gods worde by such canons of the Apostles and Councels and prouinciall constitutions and ordinances subordinate to the worde of God ratified by our most Christian and vertuous Prince Let vs thanke God for our gouernours Archbishops Bishops and superiour ministers and magistrates whose offices and equitie of the offices are in the worde and continued practise of the Church hitherto and let the inferiour ministers of what name or calling soeuer be gouerned by them as lawe prescribeth Let the examination be by the Ordinaries and Diocesans of men eligible and ordinable who knowe more then a thousand vnlearned Let the ordination be by the imposition of the Bishops and other pastorall Elders and ministers hand Let the execution of their offices be stil with diligence in preaching exhorting ministring of the Sacraments prouiding for the poore as God giueth abilitie Last of all let the exercise of the whole ecclesiasticall discipline be put in vse by worde of admonition or censure of suspension or excommunication where neede is by those able gouernours whom God the Prince Synode and Parliament haue put in trust withall and let vs holde on one and the same tenour of doctrine and discipline which maugre this wooden Demonstrator and T.C. Demost 1. Olynth that is tryfling curiositie we haue held 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 would all were well for euery mans sake Laus Deo Errata Fault Correction In the Preface pag. 3. line 24.   equinoction equiuocation P. 5. lin 12. dele ergo   P. 13. li. 6. demonstrate demonstration P. 20. li. 6. 20. two P. 25. li. 31. Syndicts Syndics P. 26. li. 20. any some one ibi li. 32. ordiancion ordination P. 27. li. 21. members numbers P. 33. li. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 P. 37. li. 34. reuenge him reueage himselfe P. 49. li. 11. demises deuises Ibi. marg example epistle P. 53. li. 21. whole while P 72. li. 33. breede bredde P. 75. li. 6. is the is in the. P. 77. li. 16. lay ministring lay vnministring Ibi. li. 22.6.1 1. and 6. P. 81. li. 26. lowe lower Ibi. li. 38. columned continued P. 83. li. 32. runne not runne riot P. 87. li. 37. Irenaeus Grinaeus P. 109. li. 5. vnliable vnhable P. 110. li. 26. sence it sence as it P. 128. li. 33. by to P. 138. li. 18. Cicester Chichester P. 147. li. 11. preach practise P. 164. li. 34. posuerit poesis erit P. 166. li. 3.72 72. Euangelists P. 167. li. 14. Tragelapsus Tragelaphus P. 176. li. 28. were come were to come P. 177. li. 6. Papists Popish P. 108. li. 22. they they of the faction P. 201. li. 26. did had