Goade That is not to the point though some remained yet they were hidde All being persecuted and put to death that coulde be knowen or founde Campion The time of these persecutions was euen like to our times For then the Christians were exiled put to death driuē into corners as the Catholikes are nowe and yet there remained inough c. and they were knowen Goade Surely you make euill and vntrue conparisons you haue no such cause to complaine of bloody persecutiōs in the time of our gratious Queene and doe not wel to compare her highnes peaceable and milde gouernement with those tyrannical persecutions ye might better liken your crueltie shewed in Queene Maries time to those examples I had thought to haue founde more modestie in you Campion Well let the comparison bee of Q. Maries time then Protestants were put to death yet there remained many Goade The question is not whether they remained but whether they were seen But you said of those Emperours times that there remained many and they were not vnknowen They were vnknowen both to the faithles and faithfull ergo they were altogether vnknowen Campion I deny both partes of the antecedent Goade Then I must proue both distinctly and first touching the faithles The faithles could not knowe the Church therefore they did not knowe it Camp They knew it not by faith but by sense they knewe it Goade Iohn 3. The worlde knoweth not vs because it knoweth not him Campion I tolde you they did not knowe him as they ought to know him to saluation They knewe but not fruitfully and effectually As I knowe you are a Protestant but yet beleeue not your religion And a man that saith Masse is knowen and yet you doe not beleeue in it Goade But though the persons were knowen yet they knewe them not to be of the Church I will come to the other part of the antecedent As is the whole so are the partes But God onely knoweth the whole Ergo he onely knoweth the partes For the members of Christ are knowen to Christ alone By reason of many hypocrites men are not able to iudge who are truely faithfull There are many wolues within and many sheepe without Deus nouit qui sunt sui 2. Tim. 2. God knoweth who are his therefore the true members of Christ can not be knowen but to God alone Campion I knowe not who is elect but I knowe who is a Catholike I knowe not whether the Bishop of Rome bee elect or no c. Goade Onely the elect are of the Church whereof Christ is the head Camp I say that both good euill are of the visible Church Goade Christ hath no dead members of his body therefore the reprobate can not bee of the Church I will helpe you with a distinction They may be in the Church but not of the Church Campion The distinction is Caluins and therefore I refuse it But you answere your selfe for euill men may be viua membra Christi the liuely members of Christ in respect of faith but not in respect of charitie A man may be a member of the body of Christ as it is here in earth being a wicked man but onely the godly are members of his body as it is in heauen Your own argument doth confound you It is impossible to knowe the elect therefore it is impossible the Church should be inuisible Goade It is your parte to answere not to oppose you vse many words graunt absurdities Your argumēt doth not folow Campion You cannot know any particular man to be elect you cannot pronounce it of your selfe therefore you cannot measure the Church by election then it remaineth the Church must be visible because it must be knowen Goade To be elect or true members of Christ is one thing to be in the visible Church is another Campion This was Wickliefes error that onely the electe were true members of the Church but as I haue sayde no man can knowe who is elect and therefore you teache that no man can knowe a member of the Church nor no man can knowe that he shall be saued Goade Particular electiō is not so vnknowen as you would make it for a man may haue knowledge of his owne election by vndoubted testimonies and see the signes of election in others Fulke You saide before that visibilitie was an inseparable qualitie of the Church whereupon I reason thus If it be an inseparable qualitie it is an inseparable note But it is not an inseparable note Ergo not an inseparable qualitie Campion I deny both the Maior and the Minor both may be doubted of Fulke I will proue both Campion Giue me leaue A note is more then a qualitie The qualitie is to goe right to goe the neerest and gainest way the safest way A note is a marke that may be remoued that teacheth to turne on the right hand or on the lefte by this crosse or by that windmill or marke c. Fulke I graunt there is a difference betweene a note and a qualitie and you needed not so many wordes to haue shewed that but I speake of an inseparable note and an inseparable qualitie That qualitie which is inseparable being also a note must needes be an inseparable note Also of that your selfe haue saide that it is an essentiall qualitie I will proue the Maior Whatsoeuer marke is of the essence or nature is inseparable The visiblenes is a marke which is of the essence and nature of the Church Therefore it is an inseparable marke Campion It is an inseparable qualitie but not an inseparable note but after a sorte for a qualitie must euermore stande but a marke may be taken away Fulke The question is whether it be an inseparable note of the Church that cannot be taken away Campion I say it may be in a sense Fulke I know not what sense you speake of but this is euident by your owne confession the visiblenes of the Church is a marke and it is of the nature Ergo it is inseparable so my Maior is plaine Campion Proue your Minor Fulke There was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church ergo it is not an inseparable note Campion I deny the Antecedent Fulke There was a time when the Church was only knowē by the Scriptures therefore there was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church Campion I deny both the Antecedent and the consequent Fulke I will proue both and first the Antecedent Cam. Nay proue the consequent first then the antecedēt Fulke Why the other is first both in order and nature Campion Nay Whensoeuer the consequent is denied you must straight proue the argument Fulke That is if the consequent onely be denied but seeing you deny both I will first proue that which in nature order is first and afterward I will proue the other if it neede It is but a sory shift of you to decline from the point of the question Chrysostome
saith that Christianitie which is the Church is to bee knowen only by the Scriptures He hath these wordes Tantummodoper scripturas nullo modo nulla probatio c. Wherfore thus I frame my argumēt out of Chrysostoms place The Church is to be knowen onely by the Scriptures But visibilitie is not the Scriptures Ergo the Church is not to be knowē by visibilitie Or thus The only note to know the Church by is y◠holy Scriptures Uisibilitie is not the holy Scripturs Ergo visibilitie is not a note to know the Church by Campion Yea out of the Scriptures the Church may bee knowen for the Scriptures appoint visiblenes to bee a marke of the Church But I deny the Minor Fulke Do you say then that visibilitie is the Scripture Campion I say visibilitie is conteined in the Scriptures Fulke My Minor is that visiblenes is not the Scripture so vpon my Maior which is Chrysostomes authoritie I conclude that visiblenes is no marke of the Church Campion I know Chrysostomes place hee denieth not visiblenes to be a note You may go to an other argument Fulke You would not heare Chrysostome by your will but he shal be read by your leaue Tunc cum videritis abominationem desolationis stantem in loco sancto id est cum videritis haeresim impiam quae est exercitus Antichristi stantem in locis sanctis Ecclesiae in illo tempore qui in Iudea sunt fugiant ad montes id est qui sunt in Christianitate conferant se ad scripturas Sicut enim verus Iudeus est Christianus dicente Apostolo non qui in manifesto sed qui in occulto sic vera Iudea Christianitas est cuius nomen intelligitur confessio Montes autem sunt scripturae Apostolorum aut Prophetarum de quibus dictum est Illuminas tu mirabiliter a montibus aeternis Et iterum de ecclesia dicit fundamenta eius in montibus sanctis Et quare iubet in hoc tempore omnes Christianos conferre se ad Scripturas Quia in tempore hoc ex quo obtinuit haeresis illas Ecclesias nulla probatio potest esse verae Christianitatis neque effugium potest esse Christianorum aliud volentium cognoscere fidei veritatem nisi Scripturae diuinae Antea enim multis modis ostendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi quae gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur volentibus cognoscere quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per scripturas c. Then when you shall see the abomination of desolation standing in that holy place that is when you shall see an vngodly heresie which is the army of Antichrist standing in the holy places of the Church in that time they which are in Iury let them flie to the mountaines that is they that are in Christianitie let them get them to the Scriptures For as the true Iewe is a Christian as the Apostle sayeth not which is in open sight but which is in secrete so true Iurie whose name is vnderstood to be confession is Christianitie And the mountaines are the Scripture of the Apostles and Prophets of whome it is sayde Thou doest giue light marueilously from the euerlasting moūtaines And againe he sayeth of the Church Her foundations are in the holy hilles And wherefore doeth he commaunde all Christians in this time to get them to the Scriptures Because in this time since heresie hath obtained those Churches there can be no tryall of true Christianitie neyther can there be any other escape of Christians which woulde knowe the trueth of the faith but the Diuine Scriptures For before times it was shewed by many wayes which was the Church of Christ and which was gentilitie but nowe to them that woulde knowe which is the true Church of Christ it is knowen by none other meanes but onely by the Scriptures This is playne for the Antecedent And these particles are playne Nullo modo cognoscitur It is knowen by no meanes there is no other proofe but tantummodò per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures Campion Master Doctor you knowe the order I deny the consequent you proue the Antecedent Fulke You denied the Antecedent and therefore it was necessary for me to proue it But this place also doeth prooue the Consequence of mine argument which you denyed Let me see howe you can answere to the place All other markes in time of heresie or schisme by Chrysostomes iudgement are excluded but onely the Scriptures Therefore visibilitie also is excluded from being a marke of the Church Campion When the Church was first planted there was miracles by which it might be knowen but nowe they ceasing it is to be knowen sayeth Chrysostome onely by the Scriptures meaning that it is not to be knowen by miracles c. Fulke This answere is a senseles cauil which is easily auoyded For there is an Antithesis or opposition in Chrysostomes wordes howe it was knowen before that is multis modis by many wayes and howe it may be knowen nowe by one onely way tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures For nowe that Antichrist is reuealed he excludeth all wayes except one sayeth it must be knowen onely by the Scriptures Therefore he excludeth visiblenesse as well as miracles from being an inseparable note of the Church Campion It excludeth miracles c. Fulke Well then your answere is that nullo modo nulla probatio tantummodò excludeth nothing but miracles Campion Yea and that appeareth by the wordes Ante tempus Antichristi For whereunto els should nunc and ante be referred except it had meant by ante before the primatiue Church and nunc nowe by the present and instant time Fulke You do but talke you cannot so put away Nulla probatio No proofe Nullo modo by no meane it is knowen but tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures c. He speaketh of all times since heresies haue occupyed the Churches If you wil answere no otherwise I will rest vpon iudgement Campion I haue answered but I would to God I had a notarie well I commit all to God But I pray you note that I say that visibilitie is included in the Scriptures Goade I will examine this cause by a manifest place one of the strongest that is alleadged by those of your side to prooue the visibilitie of the Church namely that out of the 5. of Matthewe A citie that is buylded on a hill can not be hid whereupon they inferre therefore the Church must needes be alwayes visible Campion If it please you though it be commonly alleaged yet it is allegoricall There are many stronger places and you were best take a more pregnant place c. Goade It is alleadged by Hosius and others on your side to this purpose and therefore I chose it notwithstanding if you shunne it and would haue me to omitte it I will Campion No I say there are apter and stronger places neuerthelesse I shunne it not
but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y◠who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes
vnto priuate vses these sanctified vessels in which is not the true body of Christ but a misterie of the body of Christ is contained how much more the vessels of our bodie which God hath prepared for a dwelling place to him selfe ought wee not to yelde vnto the deuill to do in them what hee will The place is so plaine that no man can deny it hee saith the misterie of Christ is contained in the vessels therefore hee speaketh not of the vessels when they are emptie but when the sacrament is in them which he denieth to be the true body of Christ. Campion The thing may bee abused after the true body of Christ be taken out and yet there is a misterie there because of the spirituall vse the meaning is you must not abuse the thing referred to holy vses by the example of Balthasar and therefore the misterie is alwayes there when the vessels are emptie Fulke A very secret misterie in deede that is in the emptie chalice Well well I thinke that there is none so simple here but he may see in what case you stande Campion A misterie is not alwaies taken in one sense Why may there not be a misterie of Christ in the emptie chalice there is a misterie of Christ in euery thing I would you might answere me a while to that I could bring out of Chrysostome Fulke You are not allowed to oppose at this time but I will answere you in writing whatsoeuer you can bring As for this matter all men see how vnable you are to answere I could helpe you with a better answere my selfe Goade If Christ be present in the sacrament in his naturall body then his bodily presence must continue so long as the vse of the sacrament continueth to the worldes ende But Christ touching his bodily presence doeth not so continue Therefore Christ is not present in the sacrament in his naturall body Camp Christ doeth and so shall continue his bodily presence to the ende of the worlde Goade Christ him selfe hath denied his bodily presence or continuance Therefore he shall not so continue Campion I denie your antecedent Goade Io. 16. vers 28. I leaue the world and goe to the father And Math. 26. 11. The poore yee shall haue alwaies with you but me ye shall not haue alwaies Camp He meaneth he will not be conuersant in the world as then he was touching his outward conuersation and poore estate you shall not saith he haue me alwaies with you as you haue the poore Here he was entring into a long tale Goade I looked for this shift before I will take away your distinction ye are too full of wordes ye will not suffer mee to goe on with mine argument you are belike afraide It is spoken in respect of his bodily presence simplie Therefore not in respect of his poore estate Campion Proue what you can I deny your antecedent Goade I proue it by Saint Augustine expounding the same wordes of our Sauiour Christ. Tractat. in 10. 50. Pauperes semper habebitis vobiscum me autem non semper loquebatur enim de presentia corporis sui Nam secundum maiestatem suam secundum prouidentiam secundum ineffabilem inuisibilem gratiam impletur quod ab eo dictum est Ecce ego vobiscum sum vsque ad consummationem seculi secundum carnem quam verbum assumpsit secundum id quòd de virgine natus est c. non semper habebitis vobiscū Ascēdit in coelum non est hîc ibi est enim sedet ad dextrā patris hîc est non enim recessit praesentia maiestatis Secundū praesentiā maiestatis semper habemus Christum secundum praesentiam carnis rectè dictum est discipulis Me autem non semper habebitis The poore ye shall haue alwaies with you but me ye shal not haue alwaies he spake this of the presence of his body For according to his Maiestie according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakeable inuisible grace that is fulfilled which Christ said Lo I am with you to th ēd of the world according to the flesh which the word tooke according to that he was borne of the virgine c. you shal not saith he haue me with you alwaies He is ascended into heauen is not here for he is there sitting at the right hād of the father And he is here for he is not departed according to the presence of his maiestie According to the presence of his maiestie we haue Christ alwaies with vs according to the presence of his flesh it was well said to his disciples But me you shal not haue alwaies Augustine in his first wordes expoundeth this to be spoken of the bodily presence of Christ simply Campion It is spoken according to his visible conuersation Proue any thing against this Goad Augustine excludeth all kinde of bodily presence Therefore it is not spoken according to his visible cōuersation Camp I denie your Antecedent Goad Augustine acknowledgeth only two kindes of presence of Christ the one the bodily presence of his flesh the other according to his maiestie prouidence inuisible grace According to this latter kind he saith Christ is present with vs which he directly opposeth to his bodily presence Therfore all kinde of bodily presence is excluded Campion There is no contrarietie to that I said before S. Augustine excludeth not by maiestical presence al bodily presence Make your Syllogisme and I will answere you Goad It is more then the vsuall order of disputatiō to require a Syllogisme when I am come to the issue of mine argument namely to authoritie as now we are come to Augustine but I will followe your request Do you answere directly Thus I make mine argument out of Augustines wordes Christ is now present with his Church touching his maiestie and vnspeakeable grace Therefore by no meanes touching his body Campion I deny your argument Goad Augustines wordes proueth it making but two kindes of presence of Christ namely presence of maiestie and presence of flesh and opposeth the one against the other Camp He speaketh not of Christ present in the sacrament but of his presence which euery Christiā man may haue he speaketh according to Subiectam materiam he excludeth not his naturall presence in the sacrament Goad You answere not the argument out of Augustine But I will followe you and proue that hee excludeth the presence of Christes naturall body in the sacrament He excludeth all presence saue that by his maiestie prouidence and grace Ergo he excludeth the presence of Christes naturall body in the sacrament Camp To your Antecedent I answere he excludeth all ordinary presence by outward conuersation and sheweth how Christ is present with euery Christian by his spirit and grace hee speaketh not of his presence in the sacrament Goad He speaketh generally excluding all bodily presence Therefore aswell in the sacrament as without Camp Hee speaketh generally quoad subiectam materiam according to
Church supposing alwayes a true Church I pray you of what Church are you Charke We talke of the true Church and therefore this question is needles Are we to obey any thing contrary to the worde of God You can imagine nothing left to the Church that is not manifestly conteyned in the scripture Camp Call you manifestly particularly Charke To what purpose is that question I must bring you to a Syllogisme lest you auoyde disputation by digressing into other matter If any thing be left obscure or not fully handled by the Apostles it was either because the Apostles could not or because they would not write manifestly and fully But it is a blasphemie to say they could not and it is false to say they would not Therefore they haue written all manifestly and fully Here Campion repeated the Argument and then sayd thus Camp I answere to the word manifestly either in generall or particular termes manifest and this the Apostles both could and would For this is manifest enough Beleeue the Church but it is not particular Charke While we dispute of the manifest and full contents of the scripture leaue to choppe in the needles terme Particular manifest generals include particulars And where I pray you are we commaunded to beleeue the Church in matters not contained in the written worde By this vncerteine rule you may warrant all former traditions and bring in any newe absurdities Camp That is not the question Charke But it is a necessary note for the confutation of your answeres and doctrine of vnwritten verities Therefore I thus proue against you To leaue a doore open to any chaungeable or doubtfull traditions is not to teache things manifest enough in the scriptures But to send vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written word is to leaue a dore open to chaungeable and doubtfull traditions Therefore to sende vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written worde is not to teach thinges manifest enough in the scriptures Camp To leaue a doore to traditions which the holy ghost may deliuer to the true Church is both manifest and seene as the baptisme of Infants the holy ghost proceeding from father and sonne and such other things mentioned which are deliuered by tradition Proue these directly by the scripture Charke Which proposition in the Syllogisme doe you deny Camp Proue the baptisme of children and the proceeding of the holy Ghost not to be traditions Charke I maruayle you thus auoyde the Syllogisme and what you meane to match doctrines contained in the word of God with vnwritten and vncerteyne traditions of men It is plaine that the baptisme of children is proued by the analogie of Circumcision with baptisme childrē being circumcised the eight day Also by that the Sacraments of the old Testament are the same with the Sacraments of the newe The proceeding of the holy ghost is euidently proued by this that our Sauiour promiseth to send the holy Ghost Camp Proue the proceeding of the holy ghost Ex parte filii That is on the sonnes part For that is the point Charke It is proued by my former words and where Christ breathed vpon his disciples and said Receiue the holy ghost Camp Well leaue that talke of baptisme which this company vnderstandeth better Suppose that I am an Anabaptiste And y◠Anabaptist denieth this argument because children should not be baptized till the eight day and the scripture willeth them to be baptised that beleeue so that first they must haue Faith or els they may not be baptized Charke I reply to you that Infidels of age to vnderstand and beleeue must beleeue before they be baptised and admitted to the Church but the children of beleeuers being the seede of the faithfull they may receiue the seale of the couenant of God made to the Fathers and to their seede according to that of the Apostle If the first fruites be holy the lumpe also If the roote be holy the branches also are holy But to the question Notwithstanding the scriptures be the only rule triall of all questions in religion and do fully proue the matter in hand yet because you wil not be cōtented without them answere a place or two out of the Doctors Eusebius lib. 3. cap 35. of his ecclesiasticall storie writeth that Ignatius being caried prisoner to Rome did exhort the Churches to cleaue vnseparably to the tradition that is to the deliuered doctrine of the Apostles which for safetie it was necessarie to put downe in writing that we might not depart frō it Which excludeth the generall bringing in of vnwritten verities vnder the colour of that text Obey your prelates Camp Reade the place Charke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In English thus He exhorted the Churches to cleaue vnseparablie to the traditition of the Apostles which he supposed and testified nowe for safeties sake necessarily to haue bene set downe euen in writing Camp What word doe you inferre Tradition I graunt is not alwayes taken for vnwritten veritie This place maketh for those traditions which were not then written Ignatius was S. Iohns scholler and he was Oculatus testis An eye witnesse of things that were not then written but went from hand to hande and therefore he thought it necessarie to leaue in writing such trueth as he had heard and was not written before For the Gospels were not then written Ignatius wrote no Gospell and the text noteth that the things whereof he spake were such as himselfe wrote Charke You mistake the meaning of the place For Ignatius spake not of your doubtfull and multiplied traditions but of the certayne Tradition that is of the deliuered and written doctrine of the Apostles to the which we must cleaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is so stedfastly that no force no arte may cut vs off or withdrawe vs from it no not an Angell from heauen much lesse any mortall man howsoeuer magnified with the high titles of Popedome or Prelacie or Apostolicall authoritie Walker You haue graunted that all things are written in the worde and that such traditions as can not manifestly be gathered out of the Canonicall Scriptures are not to be receaued Thereupon I reason thus The same that the Apostles wrote the same they deliuered in tradition But they haue written and deliuered the same things that they read in the Canonicall scripture Ergo their writings and traditions be all one and the same Camp The same that is to say nothing contrarie Walker The same and no other is needefull to saluation Heare the Apostles wordes 1. Cor. 4. Hac de causamisi vobis Timotheum qui est filius meus dilectus fidelis in domino qui vobis in memoriā reducet vias meas quae sunt in Christo quemadmodum in omni ecclesia doceo Who is my beloued sonne and faithful in the Lord who will put you in minde of my wayes which are in the Lorde euen as
an ende And then turning vs to the auditorie we said You haue heard howe Master Campion in his printed booke hath charged vs as rasers manglers and spoylers of the holy Scriptures of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as he saith You haue heard how he would proue vs so to be by certeine places by him in his said printed booke noted as being the wordes of Luther and others in their bookes You haue heard and seene proued by the bookes them selues that there is no such thing to be founde in those places of their bookes as he hath set downe but onely that S. Hierome and Eusebius aboue a thousande yeere sithen doubted of the authoritie of those Epistles bookes And you haue heard and it is vniuersally knowen that S. Hieroms Prologue and Epistle wherein he noteth those bookes to be Apocrypha haue bene ioyned with all Bibles that haue bene written and printed euer since S. Hieromes time by the space of a xi hundred yeeres and more vntill now of late sithen the Tridētine Councill some Popish Printers haue left them out And you haue heard that not onely now of late the Councill Tridentine hath made the Apocrypha of equal authoritie with the vndoubted Canonical scriptures but also that it is set down in the B. of Romes Canon law that his Decretal epistles are to be numbred together among the Canonical scriptures so finally you see what iniurie these men do thēselues to the holy scriptures what blasphemy they haue cōmitted in matching their fables with the Canonical scriptures who do most vniustly charge vs with those crimes Sherwin said but you should haue told withall what we haue answered to all those pointes We said your answere is to be looked for when you can bring foorth your copies which you speake of and promised for in any bookes by you named extant and to be had there is nothing of that which M. Campion hath set downe to be found And here the time being spent we made an end for that forenoones conferēce The after noones conference IN the fore noones conference both Master Campion himselfe others of his companions had oftentimes required vs that we woulde deale with them in some matter of doctrine and leaue that course that we began with in the examining of his booke Whereunto we answered that we were minded if the time would suffer vs to examine other partes of his booke and lay it open to the audience there howe that as he had most vntruly charged Luther and others with the mangling and spoyling of the bodie of the holy Scriptures in the beginning of his booke so had he likewise most vntruly and impudently in other places slaundered other worthie men and vpon the same his good groundes he had charged vs all as rasers and manglers of the holy Scriptures And surely our opinion was that if any thing at all that laying open before his face of his continuall vntrueths which he hath so braggingly aduouched in his booke might haue reclaimed him For vndoubtedly he could neuer haue endured the manifestation of those his lyes as they were in the confutation of his booke shortly after set out had they bene layde open before his eyes which might manifestly appeare to all that did marke his gentle and milde behauiour and speach in the After noones conference in comparison of his bragging and lewde wordes vsed in the forenoone Notwithstanding at our meeting at after noone we sayde vnto Master Campion seeing your desire is so much to dispute in some matter of doctrine we will not refuse But first we pray you let vs qd we peruse the Canon that foloweth that which we last dealt with in the fore noone concerning the Popes Canons and the Canonicall Scriptures for that the time would not then suffer vs to reade it The wordes of Pope Leo the fourth there translated worde for worde are these For this cause I feare not to pronounce more plainely and with a loude voyce that he that is conuinced not to receiue indifferently the statutes of the holy fathers which we haue spoken of before which with vs are intituled by the name of Canons whether he be a Bishop a Clarke or a laye man that he is proued neither to beleeue nor to holde profitably and effectually to his effect the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels This saith Pope Leo. You may see quoth we whereunto this boldnesse of matching mens writings with the holy Canonical Scriptures is come Fore here Pope Leo with a loude voyce pronounceth that whosoeuer doeth not indifferently receiue the Canons is conuicted neither to reteine effectually nor beleeue the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels whereby he matcheth the beleeuing receiuing or refusing of his Canons with the beleeuing or refusing of the foure holy Gospels for so we said that the proofe of that Canon and the worde indifferently did importe Master Campion indeuoured very much to quallifie this worde indifferentèr indifferently and so to mollifie the Popes blasphemie if he coulde and he confessed that there was difference betweene the Euangelistes and other writers for that the Euangelistes and writers of the Scriptures coulde not erre in memorie or any other circumstance but Councils might be deceiued in some such small matters of circumstance As for example sayeth he I am bounde vnder paine of damnation to beleeue that Tobias dogge had a tayle because it is written he wagged his tayle It was sayd by vs that it became him not to deale so triflingly in matters of such waight Why then saith he if this example like you not take another I must beleeue that Saint Paul had a cloake because hee willeth Timothie to bring his cloake We said these thinges were nothing to purpose vnlesse hee could proue that such a promise was made to the bishop of Rome and his Coūcils that whatsoeuer they should determine was sure to be true and certaine They alleaged Christes saying Hee that heareth not the Church let him be reputed as a publicane and heathen We answered that text serued them for all purposes But first they must proue them selues to be the true Church before that text would belong vnto them And where they alleaged out of the 15. of the Actes So it seemeth to the holy Ghost and vs. Wee answered wee knewe well enough that that Councill was gouerned by the holy Ghost wherein the Apostles were president But what maketh that to the wicked Councils of Popes And after much reasoning about the worde indifferenter we said were that word put out yet were it blasphemie to saye that he that beleeueth not the Popes Canōs which are with other there mentioned beleeueth not the foure holy Gospels After this wee began our disputation concerning iustification both for that it is first of all other mentioned in your booke quoth we to Master Campion and both Luther and we all are most grieuously charged by you
purpose is not to deale by discourse but briefely by Logical arguments according to the order of schooles c. After he had inquired D. Fulkes name Campion also spake after this maner Campion The disputation that I desire is yet behinde for I desire it might bee in the Uniuersities This may bee called a conference but it is not the disputation which I require Besides these conferences are vnequall both in respect of the suddainnesse of them as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and conuenient I see that you haue some appoynted to note as if it were made a solemne matter I shoulde haue the like so shoulde I haue come better furnished and all these might haue bene better profited Besides I haue bene yll dealt withall already things heretofore spoken by me haue bene mistaken and published in print otherwise then I euer meant D. Fulke For the suddennesse it is all alike with vs. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we and also the choyse and appointing thereof As for the noting it is not made so solemne a matter that it can preiudice you but to preuent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference iniurious as well to you as to vs. As for the disputation you require it is not at our appoyntment It must be ordred by them that are to appoynt both you and vs. We come by commandement c. but let vs goe to the matter You slaunder vs and Master Caluine likewise in the thirde chapter of your booke for defining of the Catholike Church as we do You say we make it a Platonicall Idaea an ayrie thing that is no where c. But I will proue that it is against the nature of the Catholike Church at any time to be visible Campion Where do I slaunder you or Caluine Reade my booke I wil maintaine my booke and euery part of it And as for the Catholike Church I will mayntaine that from the time of Adam to Christ and from Christ vnto vs the Church hath bene visible But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine shewe my wordes D. Fulke These are your wordes Non est ausus contrauenire sonitu videri noluit Ecclesiae quam toties Scripturae commemorant refragari nomen callidè retinuit rem ipsam funditùs definiendo sustulit c. And ye quote Cal. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 2. 3. Here you plainely slaunder Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church comprehending all the elect of God that haue bene are or shal be to be inuisible Camp The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts triumphant in heauen and militant on earth generally particularly and I am ready to maintaine that alwayes the militant Church in earth is visible euery 〈◊〉 in his mayer knoweth this who in their prayers pray for the Church militant therefore this is the poynt whether this be alwayes visible Fulke Wel then it appeareth in the very beginning that you swarue from the title of your owne booke sclaundering vs without cause for the definition of the whole Catholike Church and Sophistically you goe from the whole to a parte from the Catholike Church to the Church militant which is but a part of it when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect and is the full body of Christ that filleth all in all things as the Apostle sayeth and as we confesse in the articles of our faith We beleeue the Catholike church We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen is not visible And what cause haue you then to exclaime vpon Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church to be inuisible This we are here ready to prooue Camp I haue sayd that vpon earth the Church is alwayes visible But I pray you let vs speake of the Church militant I am sure these gentlemen would heare not of a Church of Saints in heauen but of a Church in earth wâ—…etd they may ioyne themselues what shoulde we talke of the Church in heauen They would rather knowe I am sure of what Church they are here Aske them Fulke Wel then you are found recreant in this paynt openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it inuisible and now when it commeth to the tryall you will not deale with the Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen but with a part of it to witte that which is vpon earth which wee neuer denyed in some sense to be alwayes visible because it consisteth of men vpoÌ„ earth although it be not alwayes seene because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde and sometimes also from the true members thereof But this Church vpon earth you wil haue to be alwaies visible Seeing therefore you giue ouer yâ— defence of your slauÌ„der of our definition of the Catholike Church which we came prepared to maintaine we are ready also to reason of the church militaÌ„t Campion The state of the question is that the Church militant vpon earth can not be hidden but it is alwayes knowen so that a man may vnderstand of what Church he is c. Fulke The case may be such as a member can know no more but himselfe what meane you by visible Campion I meane to be visible is to knowe one another to meete at Sacraments when I can tell that I am of this church and you of that I a Catholike and you a Protestant as I certainely know there is a Church in Fraunce a church in Spaine and in Flaunders though I be farre from it and we may knowe one another a member can say This is my pastor these are my prelates and gouernours This is playne I would to God I had one also to write for me I pray you let me not be mistaken for I haue had great wrong that wayes and thinges haue bene put in print that I neuer spake or meant Fulke If we haue this discoursing we shal neuer haue done I would you would be briefe I will prooue from a place of scripture that the church militant vnderstanding visible as you say is not alwayes visible in earth Elias complaineth that he was left alone c. Ergo the Church was not then visible Campion I deny the Antecedent further declare the meaning of the place which maketh altogether for me For Elias setteth out the schismatical church of the Samaritanes In this schismaticall church a member being driuen out as sometime it falleth out to be the worlde turning and changing he might not know the rest but yet knew there were 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal Agayne you must not bring a particular to ouerthrowe a generall There were none there therefore
there were none in other places But this place is an excellent place against you For as the Prophet complained there so we may iustly complaine now O Lord they haue forsaken thy couenāt they haue destroyed thine altars and slayne thy prophetes with the sword and I am left alone c. Yet no doubt there were many as for example I might haue complayned of Geneua when I was there that I had bene alone not knowing of any other Catholike there Were all the Protestants in England in Queene Maries time gone were there none and are all Catholikes nowe gone Whatsoeuer they bee I knowe certainely there is a Church in Fraunce c. And so then there was a florishing church in Iudea vnder Asa and Iehosaphat whither Elias was flying for succour and reliefe c. Fulke I thought wee should haue discoursing You declare your selfe vtterly ignorant in all this matter For where were these wordes spoken Cāp They were spokē as he was flying into Iudea to y◠church whither he knew to repaire teaching vs what to do in y◠like case Fulke That is not true they were spoken in mount Horeb as he was in the wildernes after he was fled from the persecution of Iezebel when she had determined his death Campion The text is playne Venitque Beersebae Iudeae c. He came to Beerseba of Iudea c. Fulke His flight was into the wildernes Beersheba was in his way where he left his seruant so went forward into the wildernes For Beersheba was the vtmost towne in Iudea towards Horeb both Beersheba the wildernes of Arabia were from Iudea towards Horeb. And therefore the text sayth Ipse verò perexit He went forward c. continuing his iourney to the wildernesse and therefore it is not true you sayd he went into Iudea to ioyne himselfe with the Church or to seeke reliefe there Campion But his complaynt was of a particular place for the Church florished in Iudea vnder two notable kinges Asa and Iehosaphat And when he sayeth Ego solus he meaneth that hee was the onely prophet that was left c. Fulke This answere cannot stand with the oracle which pronounceth that God had left 7000. true worshippers Wherefore it is manifest that Elias thought himselfe the onely true worshipper that was left in Israel except you will say there were 7000. prophets whereof he was ignorant But ye answere y◠the church was then so visible that he knew whither to resort But I will proue y◠the church of Iudea vnto which y◠cōgregation of Israel if they be a true church must be ioyned was so inuisible at some time that it had not so much as the face of a church whither any mā in Elias case might resort It is written 2. king 16. that vnder y◠raigne of Achas there was taken a paterne of the Altar of the idolaters of Damascus that Vrias the high Priest remoued the Altar of the Lord. Whereby it appeareth that the priesthoode was corrupted the altar was remoued and the sacrifices vtterly ceased c. Campion That might well bee For there might be such a time and the case might so fall out that there could be no exercise of the priestly function yet it might remaine visible ynough c. Fulke Uery wel what visibilitie could there be in those daies of Achas Manasses and such like when there was no face at all of an outward Church neither in the head nor in the members whē the high Priest was become an idolater How could they knowe whither to resort the Temple being defiled and the priesthoode it selfe so defiled with idolatrie c. Camp What meane you by the face of a Church It might for all this be knowen though they could not exercise their function Fulke How could that be when there was no outward forme of a Church it fayled in the head in the chiefe in the members There was no place for their publike sacrifices seeing that only place to which they were bounde to resort was defiled with heathenish idolatrie For it must be there and no where else And I doubt not but there were particular members that were knowen to God or might knowe one another yet was there not a visible Church as you determine of the worde visible to be when men know their pastors prelates and the place whither to resort c. Campion I say the dayes were as these dayes are nowe to Catholikes or as they were to you in the daies of Queene Mary to them that are in prison yet we know there were protestants left and those that were in prison knew well inough to resort vnto them that were abroade and so of the Catholikes though nowe Masse be forbidden and the execution of their priesthood yet Catholikes know Catholikes and whither to resort for the exercise of Catholike religion Fulke But in Iudaea they knewe not whither to resort when the temple it selfe was defiled where onely by the law of God the sacrifice was appoynted to be offered Therefore although there were a Church then yet it could not be visible Camp Reade the wordes The kinges of Iuda were as our kings as I said before the times turned there was many changes But doeth this follow there is no church in England where Masse is said which I dare say many catholikes loue would go a great way to heare with all their hearts Ergo there are no Catholikes in England They had no open Cōmunions in Queene Maries time ergo there were none c. Fulke You make bolde cōparisons you cloye vs with wordes and goe from the matter We say not that the Church could euer perish out of the earth for one moment of time or that they were not because they were not seene but wee saye against your assertion the Church in Iudaea was not visible because there was neither place nor sacrifice nor high Priest c. The Priest was wicked the Temple was defiled c. Nowe all kingdomes may professe religion and haue their exercises thereof in all places though they could not doe so in Iudaea Campion You haue made a good argument for mee Master Doctor I will knit it vp with this though they might onely exercise in the Temple yet we may euery where and though Elias sawe them not yet there were thousandes so though it be not permitted now to say Masse publikely and to exercise our functions yet there are thousandes Fulke Here is nothing but repetitions All this is not denied but where is the visibilitie of this Church vpon earth knowen to men as for God he alwayes knoweth them that are his when the head Pastor and the only place of exercise of Iewish religion was corrupt Campion And yet there was Tobias in Israel and other Fulke That is not the matter it was not visible because they had no other place to exercise in but the Temple at Ierusalem which at these times was
polluted the very Aultar of God being remoued and an idolatrous altar set in the place Campion That is not alike for we haue our functions free we may sacrifice euery where say Masse vpon euery mountaine Fulke Like enough for that matter But there was not so much as an outward face of the Church the high Priest being an Idolater and the true Altar taken away and therefore there could bee no visibilitie You answere nothing to the matter but abuse the presence with multitude of wordes and therefore committing the iudgement to them that be wise and learned I will giue place vnto my brother Mast. D. Goade Concerning the short warning the case is al one with vs as it was with you we had no longer deliberation thē you had litle aboue one dayes space concerning the question and therefore you haue no cause to complaine c. Campion What shall I call your worships name Goade My name is Goade Campion Yes that may appeare by this preparation as it were to a set and solemne thing these bookes also declare besides the bringing of a writer with you c. Goade Well all these concerne not the matter you had word assone as we and were so made acquainted with the question as it was of your own choice c. but in deede you are gone from the state of the question against which we came prepared being of the whole Catholike Church as your owne booke doth importe and it is apparant that you haue wrongfully challenged our definition being as hath bene truely sayd of the Church in general wel we must I see now followe whether you leade vs. We must leaue the Catholike Church and talke of the militant Church the generall goe to a particular One thing before I ioyne with you I woulde wish you to forbeare namely your dealing with the present state and personall speaches it will better beseeme modestie and pertaine more to the matter we haue in hande c. which may be performed with lesse waste of wordes and more humilitie You answere not to the report I haue heard of you for modest behauing your selfe in conference Campion Concerning my selfe I will lay my handes vnder your feete but I must not hūble God to you you know who saith Ne sis humilis in sapientia tua be not humble in thy wisedome I must with courage mainteine religion Haec est sapientia vestra coram populo this is your wisdome before the people c. I must not be prayed in religion Goade Howe fitly those places of Scripture are applied I will not now stande to discusse but concerning the state of the question as your selfe set it downe you are fallen from it And the Church euen as it is vpon earth being but a part of the Catholike Church I will proue sometime to be hidden But what meane you when you write that it must be of the nature of the Church to be visible Campion I meane that it must be an essentiall marke of the Church and such a qualitie as is inseparable It must be as visible as fire is hote water moist c. Goade Uery good but as you vnderstande this qualitie of visibilitie you declare your selfe to dissente from others of your side who by visible vnderstand a notable glorious Church who hath her beautie and pompe as your Bristow writeth her continuall succession of Bishops c. Campion That same outward pompe and glorie may be wāting and yet the Church be visible inough I woulde bee loth to medle with that question of succession You knowe why I woulde not willingly deale in it Goade Well as hath bene proued out of the olde testament that there was a time when the Church militant was hidden so will I proue it out of the newe There was a time when our Sauiour Christ being smitten and all the rest of the Apostles scattered and hidden that visibilitie was not an inseperable qualitie ergo this qualitie is not alwayes inseparable Campion I denie the Antecedent Goade I thinke any here might proue the Antecedent the storie of that time sheweth it plaine The face of the visible Church was then not in Christ his Apostles but in the Iewes amongst the Scribes and Pharisees they had the succession of the Priesthoode and held the chaires Christ was crucified put to death and buried the Apostles scattered and fled into holes and corners so that if visibilitie be such a certaine marke of the true Church then the high Priestes Scribes and Pharises were the true Church and not our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles Campion It was a Church in choate beginning not perfect Goade Therefore it was at sometime hidden c. namely in the beginning of the Church where was then this visibilitie Campion In the virgin Marie Zacharie Iohn Baptiste Peter c. Goade What shewe you me these to proue the Church visible who was Pastor when the Pastor was smitten and killed who occupied the chaires where was the outward face of the Church which you will haue to be so glorious and where was the Pastor and outward exercise of Religion Campion I haue said before that it is not necessarie it should haue alwayes that outward pompe and glorie In the beginning it is not apparant as afterwards Goade Ergo there is a time when it may be hidden Campion Not hidden for they were gathered together It was in deede pusillus grex a litle flocke but proue that it was not visible Goade Because you make light accompt of these times as being but the beginnings of the Church let vs goe on to the proceedings and encrease In those great persecutions vnder the cruell Emperours the Church became hidde and inuisible ergo visibilitie is not an inseparable marke specially in thee time of Dioclesian Christians were so wasted as to the iudgement of mē there were none remaining their bookes were burnt their churches destroyed and them selues put to death with sondrie tormentes Camp You answere your selfe For against whom was this ◅secutiō so hot against whom fought they were they shadowes I am sure there were Christians or els they could not haue stoode forth to haue endured those tormentes but I coulde shewe you Rome in that time Some escaped till Constantines time much about three and twenty yeeres All were not eaten vp for then euery man would be a Christian and well was he that could shewe him self so I could name you the Bishop of Rome that then was Goade But in the ende after that great hauocke was made and crueltie had wasted all that could be founde where was then the visible Church In the ende it was enforced to be hidden It had lost that which you say must needes be of the nature of it the glorie of it was so eclipsed that it shined no where Campion It was most visible then and most glorious and not long after when Constantine came al were Christiās Wherby it appeareth that diuers remained
can not be suffered to exercise this medicine of holsome discipline Camp The disease is continuall ergo the remedy is continual I must tell my Prelates where shal I tel theÌ„ if they be not Goade The remedy is continually necessary holsome but can not coÌ„tinually be vsed Diuers most necessary things are not alwayes in vse It is most necessary the Gospel should be coÌ„tinually preached it is Christes commandement yet this oftentime fayleth as in persecution wheÌ„ the church is driuen into streights and the publique exercise of the worde restrained I deny your argument It is alwayes necessary therefore it is alwayes in vse and practise Many other necessary thinges are wanting many times that ought to be and yet this taketh them not away neither maketh them vayne or vnnecessary c. Campion The disease is common it is perpetual To whom shoulde I haue gone before Luthers time What Prelats should I haue made my complaint vnto in those dayes I must tell my Pastor c. Goade You are answered that in times of persecution this coulde not be and specially in those times of generall Apostacie foretolde by the Apostle 2. Thess. 2. this could not be practised no more then the true preaching of the worde You deale straungely with vs. When you had shut vs in prison embrewed your handes with our blood driueÌ„ the true Church as it were into the wildernesse through your grieuous persecutions and tyrannies so as there coulde be no meetings for publike exercise of religion then you aske where was our Church and to whome we shoulde haue gone before Luthers times Campion Where was your Church for 900. yeeres agoe Whose were Iohn Husse Hierome of Prage the Waldenses c. Were they yours Helpe him Master Doctor Fulke It needeth not this is beside the matter your place is answered The remedy is not ydle or vayne though sometimes men are restrayned from the vse of it Cyprian complayneth aboue 1200. yeeres agoe that for the great persecution that was against the Church they could not meete so often as they desired to execute discipline and yet who will deny but the discipline of the Church is perpetuall It must be vsed when it may bee had A medicine is not an idle medicine in the Apothecaries shoppe nor Galens prescription thereof is vayne because sometimes it can not be had Campion Though of some at sometimes it cannot be had in one place yet it may be had in another There may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it but if I wil seeke it I may finde it Fulke The words are spoken generally to euery man Si peccauerit aduersusâ—…te frater If thy brother offend against thee c and yet euery man can not obteyne it You that are in prison what Church can you tell if you bee offended will you say the remedy is vayne because you can not vse it Againe there are meane remedies before a man come to this that he should tell the Church hee must first giue priuate admonition and before witnesses which euery man can not do that is offended As to whom shoulde Elias haue complayned when hee knewe none but himselfe Therefore it is no more necessary that there should be a visible Church alwayes to complayne vnto then it is necessary that euery man should alwayes bee able to admonish priuately or to haue two or three witnesses to call vnto him Againe you aunswere your selfe that there may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it Therefore it was very yll concluded of you that if a man can not alwayes haue a visible Church to make his complaynt vnto the remedie prescribed by our Sauiour Christ is vayne or idle And concerning the name Ecclesia in that text when it is sayde we should tell the Church ye abuse the audience for it meaneth not the whole Church but the consistorie and eldershippe that haue the gouernement of euery particular congregation For howe can a man tell the whole Church on earth or yet the whole parish where he dwelleth but he may tell the company of Elders and gouernors when such are established to haue the execution of discipline and this also may be interrupted by persecution Campion Master Doctor you haue sayde well for mee the worde Ecclesia is taken for the gouernours of the Church and they are alwayes in sight In what place of the Scripture is the worde Ecclesia taken for an inuisible Church you can shewe mee no place Shewe mee one place shewe mee one place if you can Fulke I can shew you a great many But because you call so earnestly for one I will shew you one It is taken for the whole body of the Church therefore for an inuisible church in the first chapter to the Ephesians in the latter ende where the Apostle sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And he appoynted him head ouer all thinges vnto his Church which is his body and the fulnes of him which filleth all in all So that it is taken for the whole Catholike Church as it containeth all the elect of God those that haue bene are and shal be c. which vniuersall Church is inuisible Campion I graunt it is there taken for the Church triumphant and militant Fulke Ergo it is there taken for an inuisible Church For we speake of it as it conteyneth euery member and is the whole body of Christ whereof some are yet vnborne Campion I graunt it of the whole but the Church militant is visible the other inuisible Fulke But the Catholike Church of Christ being the body of Christ is mysticall ergo insensible Campion Prooue it according to all partes to bee inuisible Fulke It is sufficient for mee to prooue that the Catholike Church which is the whole body of Christ is mystical therfore it is inuisible I speake of the Catholike Church as it is an article of faith For wee beleeue the Catholike Church according to the articles of faith Nowe fayth is of things which are not seene ergo the Catholike Church is inuisible Campion I knowe that the whole Catholike Church and euery part of the same as it is of faith is inuisible but what is this to the Church militant Fulke You vrged me to shewe a place where the word Ecclesia is taken for an inuisible Church and I haue shewed you that it is taken for an inuisible Church wheresoeuer it is taken for the Catholike Church which you confesse to be inuisible both in the whole and euery part Campion So farre as it is of faith Fulke And we speake of it as it is of faith For the whole Catholike Church being an article of fayth is considered no otherwise then as it is of faith neither any part thereof by your owne confession whereof it followeth that the visible Church for which you striue so much is no article of our faith because it is seen
the matter that he had in hand Goad You answere not the argument Thus I vrge it briefly Christ is now present with his Church only touching his spirit and grace Ergo he is no way present touching his body Mine argument you see is grounded vpon Augustines plaine wordes opposing the one presence to the other Secundum presentiam maiestatis semper habemus Christum c. Campion He compareth these two together how he was present to his Apostles and how to vs he talketh generally of an vsuall presence as euery maÌ„may haue Christ present by prayer c. Goad And he maketh Christ present to vs none other way but by his maiestie and inuisible grace and touching all presence of his flesh saith it is true me ye shall not haue alwaies I pray you would or durst Augustine so haue written in so plaine wordes absolutely to allowe onely of Christes presence by his grace denying that touching his bodily presence we should not alwaies haue him with vs if Christ any way were still bodily present vpon earth Camp Yea I warrant you being rightly vnderstoode For he opposeth his presence then and his presence now not any more according to visible conuersation And so your argument ye woulde make out of Augustine is not good Goad You vse not to answere the point of the argument but your manner is to holde you stil to one shifting distinction though it be often taken away Your kinde of answering is not onely against learning but against common sence Fulke I will take an other argument If Christ be present in the sacrament in his naturall body he is present in truth and in deede not onely in a signifying misterie But he is not present in the sacrament in truth and in deede but onely in a signifying misterie Ergo he is not present in his naturall body Cam. I denie your Minor he is present in the truth of his body Fulke I proue it out of the Canon Lawe De Consecratione Distinct. 2. cap. Hoc est Sicut ergo caelestis panis qui Christi caro est suo modo vocatur corpus Christi cum reuera sit sacramentuÌ„ corporis Christi illius videlicet quod visibile quodpalpabile mortale in cruce posituÌ„ est vocaturque ipsa immolatio carnis quae sacerdotismanibus fit Christi passio mors crucifixio non rei veritate sed significante mysterio sic Sacramentum fidei quod Baptismus intelligitur fides estâ—… Therefore euen as the heauenly bread which is the flesh of Christ after a peculiar maner is called the body of Christ when in deede it is the Sacrament of the body of Christ to wit of that body which being visible which being palpable being mortal was put on the crosse and euen that immolation of the fleshe which is done by the Priests handes is called the passion death crucifixion of Christ not in trueth of the thing but in a signifying mystery so the Sacrament of faith which is vnderstoode to be baptisme is faith And the Gloss. hereupon sayth Coelestis c. id est Coeleste Sacramentum quod ver è repraesentat Christi carnem dicitur corpus Christi sed impropriè vnde dicitur suo modo sed non rei veritate sed significante mysterio Vt sit sensus Vocatur corpus Christi idest significat The heaueÌ„ly bread that is the heauenly Sacrament which truely representeth the flesh of Christ is called the body of Christ but vnproperly whereupon it is sayd by a peculiar maner but not in the trueth of the thing but in a signifying mystery So that the sense is It is called the body of Christ that is it signifieth it Camp All this maketh for transubstantiation That which we see is called the body of Christ where in deede it is but the colour and the accidents Fulke All makes for you but let vs see whether you can so runne away with the matter He saith Coelestis panis the heauenly bread can the colour or accidents be called the heauenly bread Campion The meaning is of the accidents and of the signe Fulke This is a straunge proposition color or accidens is coelestis panis Campion It is called Coelestis panis because it is heauenly bread by consecration Fulke That can not be For he calleth that heauenly breade which is the fleshe of Christ and after the maner of it the body of Christ But accidents are not the flesh of Christ nor the body of Christ Ergo they are not the heauenly bread Campion If you respect the qualitie it is the heauenly bread by consecration Fulke It seemeth you knowe not the place the Glosse sayth the heauenly bread which is the heauenly Sacrament is called vnproperly the body of Christ not in trueth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie Camp Saint Augustine there speaketh popularly You bewray your slender reading of Augustine in citing this as Gratians authoritie Fulke It is Gratian in the decrees of your owne Canon law and the Glosse thereupon In deede the decree is borowed of Augustine but it is more fully against the carnall presence as it is cited by Gratian. Campion I will answere both Gratian and the Glosse Fulke Set it downe then in few wordes Campion It is called coelestis in respect of consecration and transubstantiation bread in respect that it is bread wine in outwarde shewe and for the accidents it is called Sacramentum the Sacrament in respect that vnder those outward shewes the naturall body of Christ is present Fulke So you vnderstand the sacrament which is denyed to be the body of Christ in trueth of the thing to be the accidents but it is absurd that accidents should be called the heauenly bread Campion It is not absurd if it be heauenly vnderstood but accidents visibly considered of themselues import absurditie Fulke The Sacrament is the outward shewe which is not the body of Christ. I will proue that he taketh the worde Sacrament for the whole Sacrament not for the accidents as you doe Campion He speakes of the whole Fulke He speaketh of the whole and not of the whole this is manifest contradiction Campion The worde Sacrament is here taken for the exterior formes and not for the whole Sacrament Fulke I proue it must be taken for the whole Sacrament els it could not be compared with Baptisme But it is compared with Baptisme Ergo he taketh it for the whole Sacrament Camp Your maior I answere He compareth the element of the sacrameÌ„t of the altar with the elemeÌ„t of water in baptisme Fulke He speaketh of the whole Sacrament of Baptisme which is called faith euen as the heauenly bread is called the Sacrament of Christ But the water of Baptisme is not called faith Ergo he speaketh of the whole Sacrament Campion He respecteth the externall signes and compareth signes with signes Fulke That which he spoke of is called the body of Christ But the accidents are not called the body of Christ Ergo
Charke I do not onely thinke but knowe of a certeintie that you are deceiued and will shewe you the booke Camp Note this obiection This is myne answere to it Hermogenes the Heretike did alleadge a bastard tradition and Tertullian doth call him to proue his opinion by true scriptures For Tertullians argument is not to say It is not written Therfore it is not true but to call him to proue the Scripture true which he alledged for him Charke And note this answere He that euen now knewe no such booke taketh presently vpon him to discourse of the argument thereof What great boldnes is this From what present reuelation doth it come Beside your boldnes your error is great in affirming that Hermogenes brought a bastard tradition For there is no such thing as may appeare to any man that for triall hereof wil reade the booke Hermogenes is cōfuted for saying as an Aristotelian Philosopher the God made al things of materia prima Againe of your answere I conclude that of necessitie the proofe of euery particular tradition must be by a true scripture And it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a generall position Tertullian would haue Hermogenes proue all that he helde by scripture Camp I say it is not to shewe a bastard writing for his tradition but that which is true scripture Charke And that is all I aske for what do I seeke more but to proue that euery tradition must be proued by true Scripture when therefore you Iesuites bring in vnwritten traditions concerning your Candles your vnholy graines your Agnus deis and such beggerly stuffe wherewith you abuse and pester the world Tertullian sayth you bring a Vae vpon your selues except you can proue the vse of them by Scriptures Camp Why I say it must needes be proued there or els it is not to be receaued Charke Remember what you graunt I aske no more To leaue Tertullian with you to aduise better of I alledge also a place of Basill out of his treatises called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 capite 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This place doth clearely establish the sufficiencie of scripture and banisheth all vnwritten and selfe will worshippings Consider the place for it is worthy of consideration as making against you in this question and charging you with pride and apostasie for bringing in things not written Camp Well let these your speaches passe Reade the place S. Basill is not against vs. Charke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. It is a manifest Apostasie or falling away from the faith and a fault of high pride eyther to dissalowe any thing written in the Scriptures or to bring in any thing not written seeing the Lorde hath sayde My sheepe heare my voyce with other arguments to that purpose Camp I will not trouble the auditorie with this place For Basill declareth that in some things we must be referred to tradition he speaketh onely for the alleadging of false scriptures and hath nothing against me Charke Then nothing can make against errour if this make not agaynst you But you abuse the auditorie and knowe not the drift of Basill in this place and that I will make euident to all the companie Take the booke and reade it if you can the place is easie Greeke and the sentence but short Camp I had rather reade it in Latine then in Greeke I vnderstande the Latine better I maruell you are so much in your Greeke Charke If I shoulde not haue brought it in Greeke but in Latine then you woulde haue taken exception against the interpreter I bring not the interpretour but Basill him selfe in the tongue wherein hee wrote Here Campion being long in turning the Latine booke coulde not finde the treatise but desired Master Charke to finde it who answered I haue it readie in Basill him selfe If you flee to the interpretour turne your owne booke Camp I haue answered you Saint Basills meaning is as it was then a common doctrine that it is a great fault to disalow true scriptures or to bring in false scriptures and to father a false writing vpon the Apostles Charke I protest that hauing perused the circumstaunces of the place I finde no such generall or particular drifte of the father as you misreport but a playne doctrine and sundrie argumentes to proue it that nothing is to be receiued or brought into the Church that is not written Camp Your protestation is no argument I am acquaynted with this dealing since the other day But the scope of Saint Basill is as I haue saide Charke My true protestation doeth ouerway your misconstruing as wel of Basill nowe as of Tertullian before and therein I referre my selfe to the examination of both places If you will or can read but twentie lines further your owne eyes shal see and giue sentence against your selfe Camp I haue giuen you the sense of the Doctours wordes and neede not reade the place Charke Reade first and then answere What Authour or what place can make against you if you will of your selfe frame an interpretation after your owne purpose without reading the wordes or making conscience what construction you giue Campion Saint Basill in other places is of a contrary iudgement and I am sure he is not contrary to him selfe The Apostles had fayth before they wrote and therefore it must needes be the scope Charke What kinde of answere is this Speake to the purpose or confesse your insufficiencie Basills owne woordes in this place doe euidently proue that hee is against you answere them or acknowledge your selfe not able to satisfie the Doctour Campion Was all written when the Apostles first taught Charke Is this any answere to Basill Propounde no newe questions but answere the former place so full against you Camp You see mine answere Charke I see and all men may see your vntrueth to shift off the matter Basills wordes are too strong against you To your newe question I answere that since the worde of God was first written that which hath bene written conteyned sufficient matter to saluation Campion Then what needed so many additions since of the Prophets and Apostles writings if we had sufficient before Charke The most honourable addition of the Prophetes and Apostles serued to a clearer manifestation of Christ of whome Moses had written before but added nothing to the substance In the after noone The Question Whether faith onely iustifieth M. Charkes prayer OUr helpe is in the name of the Lorde c. Almightie God merciful Father we acknowledge against our selues that we were conceiued and borne in sinne and corruption that wee remaine vnprofitable to any thing that is good and most prone and ready to that which is euill in thy fight Ignorance doeth possesse our mindes and dulnesse ruleth in our vnderstanding so that of our selues wee can not see into thy glorious and excellent trueth and in our selues wee finde no health nor hope of health Therefore according to thy riche mercie O Lord take
mislike onely he sayd that he vnderstoode not of our comming Then we beginning with the first part of his sayd booke did demaund of him with what reason he could charge the Queenes Maiesties most mercifull gouernment and vs that at this time professe the Gospel as he did in yâ— Preface of his said booke with unused and strange crueltie and torments practised vpon his fellowes in religion seeing that the Authors and professors of their Religion had most cruelly burnt aliue so many thousands of vs for the maintenance of our Religion onely besides diuers other wayes of most horrible torments whereas none of them was euer executed for Religion but either for treason or some other notorious crime punishable with death by the Lawes of the Realme Whereunto he answered that he was punished for Religion himselfe and had bene twise on the Racke and that racking was more grieuous then hanging and that he had rather chuse to be hanged then racked Whereunto one of vs sayd that belike Master Campion being the Popes tender Pernell accounteth a litle racking of him selfe to be more crueltie then the roasting quicke of many thousands of vs. You must quoth Master Campion consider the cause the cause why and not the punishment onely It hath bene euer your maner sayd we not onely to vse petitione principij but totius also not only to require a principal point in controuersie but euen the whole it self to be graunted vnto you as that your cause is good and that you be the true Church of Christ as you continually presume and take vnto you But thanks be to God the contrarie hath bene so prooued that a great part of Christendome doeth euidently see it And many thousands who were before of your Church haue fled to vs from it as from the synagogue of Antichrist And concerning his racking Master Lieutenant being present sayde that he had no cause to complaine of racking who had rather seene then felt the racke and admonished him to vse good speache that hee gaue not cause to be vsed with more seuerity For although said he you were put to the racke yet notwithstanding you were so fauourablie vsed therein as being taken off you could and did presently go thence to your lodging without helpe and vse your handes in writing and all other partes of your body which you could not haue done if you had bene put to that punishment with any such extremitie as you speake of Besides this Master Beale one of the Clarks of her Maiesties priuie Counsell being by chaunce present demaunded of him before all the companie there assembled whether that being on the racke he were examined vpon any point of Religion or no Whereunto he answered that he was not in deede directly examined of Religion but moued to confesse in what places he had bene conuersant since his repaire into the Realme Master Beale sayde that this was required of him because many of his fellowes and by likelihood he him selfe also had reconciled diuers of her Highnes subiectes to the Romish Church and had attempted to withdrawe them from their obedience due to their naturall Prince and Soueraigne Whereunto he answered that forasmuch as the Christians in olde time being commanded to deliuer vp the bookes of their Religion to such as persecuted them refused so to doe and misliked with them that did so calling them Traditores he might not betray his Catholike brethren which were as he sayd the temples of the holy Ghost But it was replied by Master Beale that it was conuenient in policie for the Prince to vnderstande what such as were sent from the Bishop of Rome her Maiesties and the Realmes mortall enemie did within her dominions and to knowe her foes from her faithful subiects specially in such a time as this wherein we liue that this inquirie did not touch the cause of Religion After this we came to the matter of his booke And first where he chargeth vs that we haue nowe of a sudden cut off many goodly and principall partes of the holy Scriptures from the whole body thereof of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as hee writeth and for example and proofe thereof he nameth first the Epistle of Saint Iames which Luther that flagitious Apostata saith he in the Preface of the same Epistle and in his booke De captiuitate Babilonica nameth contentious puffed vp drie or barren as a thing stuffed with strawe and iudgeth it vnworthie the Apostolique spirit wee answered that if Luther had so written yet Master Campion did vs wrong to charge vs with violating of the Maiestie of the holy Bible for reiecting of the sayde Epistle of S. Iames who doe and alwayes haue receiued the same Epistle Yet we prayed him that he would shewe these wordes in the places by him noted which he sayd he would if he had the bookes The booke wherein was Luthers Preface to that Epistle being deliuered him when he had read some part of the sayd Preface and found that Luther did allowe and commend that Epistle as in deede he doeth testifying that though it were reiected of some olde writers yet he commended it and tooke it to be good and profitable which wordes of Luther when Master Campion had read he shut the booke and sayde that it was not of the true edition We answered that the print was not lately published being almost fourtie yeeres sithence and that we had searched all other printes that we could come by and found them to agree with this and that we thought there was no other and therefore we prayed him that he would shewe some edition wherein it was so set downe as he alleaged it in his booke He sayd he thought it was so as he had alleaged in the same booke of Luther in the Dutch tongue Then we offered to bring him the Dutch booke for the triall of the trueth of the Latin translation but he refused to see the same But it was aduouched vnto him as the trueth is in deede that it was likewise in the Dutch booke as he had read it in the Latin for that we had made conference thereof Then he desired to see Luthers booke De captiuitate Babilonica This booke also we deliuered to him and desired that he would shewe those wordes there He read the wordes in Latin which are these in effect I passe ouer saith Luther that many doe very probablie affirme that this Epistle is not Saint Iames the Apostles nor worthie the Apostolike spirit Here Master Campion thought that he had founde at the least that Luther had sayd that the sayd Epistle was not worthie the Apostolike spirit But wee prayed him to consider that Luther spake of other mens iudgement and not of his owne as in the same place is most euident to see and also before in his Preface to that Epistle he expresly deuideth his iudgement from theirs But Master Campion much vrged the wordes very probably whereby saith
he Luther shewed his allowance of their iudgement We answered that he so sayde for that they brought very probable reasons for that their iudgement But he still charged Luther with blasphemie for saying that some doe very probably affirme that the Epistle of Iames was not written by the Apostle Saint Iames nor worthie the spirite of an Apostle and vrged vs to answere what opinion we had of that Epistle meaning to intangle vs with that Dilemma either to condemne Luther or else to doubt of the Epistle as Luther saith that some probablie doe We answered that our Church doubteth not of that Epistle but receiueth it as Canonical readeth it in our Churches expoūdeth it in our scholes and alleageth it for confirmation of doctrine Notwithstanding for Luther or any other to say that some haue very probably affirmed that Epistle not to be written by Saint Iames nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is no blasphemie It is blasphemie blasphemie quoth he pronoūcing those words with disdainefull countenance and voyce It is soone said quoth we but not so easely proued I will proue it quoth he to be blasphemie by two reasons and thus he framed a syllogisme The Gospell of Saint Iohn and the Epistle of Saint Iames were written by the same spirite But to say that some doe probably affirme the Gospell of Saint Iohn not to be written by Saint Iohn nor to be worthie the spirite of an Apostle is blasphemie Therefore to say that like of Saint Iames Epistle is blasphemy Answere was made that the Maior was Petitio Principij the challenging of the graunt of that which chiefly is in controuersie For those that so say of Saint Iames Epistle doubt whether it was written by the same Spirite that the Gospell of Saint Iohn was or no and that still resteth for you to proue said we And here Master Campion when he coulde not denie that he required that to be graunted to him which he should haue proued was put to silence and had no more to replie Then was his second reason called for but none could be found Then saide one of them Why is not Saint Iames Epistle called the Catholicke Epistle of Saint Iames Howe doe you then denie it to be Canonicall It was said that that was a simple reason For whereas other Epistles of the Apostles were written vnto speciall Cities people or persons this of Saint Iames for that it was written commonly to all the tribes of the Iewes dispersed was called Catholike or generall Then sayd we to the auditorie You haue heard that Luther doeth much commend this Epistle of Saint Iames as good and profitable and Master Campion alleadgeth that he calleth it contentious puffed vp drie or barren stuffed with strawe and vnworthie the Apostolike spirit Whereby sayd we ye may see the diuersitie or rather contrarietie of Luthers wordes and Master Campions reporte and so may ye iudge of his synceritie trueth which he vseth likewise continually Then saide Master Campion that Luther himselfe and others had purged these workes and taken away all such places as that was and the like that ministred such occasions of offence as that did and he said he woulde procure from the Emperours Maiestie and the Duke of Bauaria and from another Prince whose name we remember not the true copyes of those bookes to be sent to the Queenes Maiestie Which wordes he rising vp from the forme whereon he sate pronounced with so great contention of voice and with such gesture casting vp his armes beating vpon his booke that one of vs challenged him therefore demaunding why he vsed such outragious speach and behauiour He answered for that so many yong Catholiques were present there he woulde not by any faint defending of the cause giue them occasion of offence Whereby we vnderstande howe he would haue behaued him selfe might he haue obteined a disputation among the youth of the Uniuersities trusting they woulde be caryed away many of them by such his bolde and confident dealings and actions And we saide further to Master Campion that if Luther had purged his books where he first reiected Saint Iames Epistle as Master Campion saith he hath sithen receiued and much commended it with whatreason hath Master Campion charged vs vpon his surmise of Luthers first writing which doth no where appeare as reiecting Saint Iames Epistle He should rather haue commended vs who doe and alwayes haue allowed of that Epistle and should haue praised Luther who after the example of Saint Augustine and other ancient and godly writers had amended in his writing that which vpon better aduise he misliked Then we turning to the auditorie sayd that seeing all the printed Bookes of Luther extant that we could finde doe conteine such commendations of Saint Iames Epistle as they had heard and that Master Campion hath charged Luther so contrarily to all his printed bookes wherein he commendeth that Epistle and therby also chargeth vs as reiecting it who euer haue receiued it they might we said take Master Campions trueth and synceritie to be as it is vntill he haue brought out his copies from the Emperour and the Duke of Bauaria which he nor any liuing we beleeue can euer doe But Master Campion said that might he haue his own bookes from Oxeforde he woulde shewe that in Luther which he had written of him Whereunto it was answered that if he woulde let vs knowe where they were we would become humble suters to their honors that he might both enioye his bookes and that the partie who had them in keeping might be without daunger But this woulde he not consent vnto Then Hart one of his fellowes saide that he being at Rome heard Bellarminus the reader of controuersies there affirme that the wordes reported by Campion in his booke were in that preface of Luther and that therefore vpon his worde it was so Whereunto we answered that neither his wordes nor the testimonie of Bellarminus were of sufficient credite to carry away such a matter as that was without better proofe specially so many and most manifest proofes in Luthers printed bookes being to the contrarie who agreeth with vs in allowing the said Epistle and that therefore Master Campion hath most impudently alleadged this place of Luther as a profe that we should reiect S. Iames Epistle Then Master Beale said It is not materiall to vs if Luther had once so written but he asked Master Campion whether euer he did read him selfe any such wordes in Luther as he in his booke doeth charge him with or not Whereto he answered that in a treatise made by Doctor Lee sometime Archbishoppe of Yorke against that booke of Luther intituled De captiuitate Babilonica he had read these wordes alleadged as he had set them downe in his booke Being againe asked whether either vpon his othe or vpon his credit he would say to the presence there assembled that he had euer seene the places alleaged by him in his booke
pray all indifferent readers to consider of these maner of dealings For Saint Augustine in that place writeth against the wicked opiniō of those who mistaking Saint Paules wordes of Iustification by sayth without workes do by an euill securitie neglect to liue well not seeking by true faith the helpe of God to the ouercomming of their owne euill concupiscences but doe despise the workes of righteousnes by a dead faith do promise to them selues euerlasting life These be Saint Augustines expresse wordes in that place truely translated which they haue most vntruely and malitiously alleaged against vs against the heresie as they terme it of iustification by faith onely which they woulde haue the simple people to mistake as though wee woulde exclude all things vniuersally sauing faith onely and did vtterly cast away all care of good workes godly life yea and all desire of Gods grace to assiste vs as did they against whom S. Augustine in that place did write But we protest before God and all good men that we neuer meant to make faith the chiefe and onely cause of our iustification but that the grace and mercie of God by our sauiour Iesus Christ promised to the faithfull in his holy worde is the principall and originall cause and very fountaine of our iustification and that faith not a dead faith as they thought against whome S. Augustine doth write but a liuely faith being wrought in our hearts by the said word of God and by the operation of the holy ghost beleeuing Gods promise of his mercy in Christ is the instrumentall cause in vs whereby onely wee receiue our iustification without the merite of our workes and yet being iustified we are most boundē to walke in all good works as much as it shall please God to giue vs grace thereunto for the which we ought to sue by cōtinuall most heartie prayer Which our doctrine you may see to bee most contrarie to the wicked opinion of those against whom S. Augustine writeth in that place and that therefore it is most falsely and malitiously alleaged as against vs who by faith onely iustifying vs meane not to exclude the doing but the merites of our good workes which is no heresie wherewith these men would charge vs but the very truthe it selfe taught in the holy Scriptures and by the auncient godly fathers and learned doctors set down in the very same wordes which we do vse as hath bene before at large declared Of the conclusion of our conference the Pamphleters write thus At the last the Protestantes did make a doe as though some thing had bene wonne when in my soule I protest there was not but in any indifferent audience the aduerse Protestants had bene quite confounded For Master Campion and Sherwin too would haue sayde much more in defence of their cause but one of them by his Commissioners authoritie suddenly made an ende cutting them off from all further speache Thus they do write In deede when we had continued very long and the sunne shining vpon our faces in at the South windowes and the throng being very greate and by occasion of both the heate so intollerable that some of vs were fayne to go out of the chauncel to take breath and to returne againe and Master Campion and wee being nowe come to a very neare point of agreement in the question of iustification as is afore noted in the end of our conference we turning to Master Lieutenaunt sayde If it shall so please you let vs here make an ende With a good will sayd he and so we brake off And here is all the Commissioners authoritie which they speake of that wee or any of vs did take vpon vs. And thus ended our conference with Campion the iudgement of the trueth of their or our reportes whereof wee doe leaue vnto God and to those who were present thereat Surely we by our notes set downe whiles our cōference was yet fresh in memorie and by sundry conferences amongst our selues sithen and with other also who were there present yea and by diligent perusing of the pamphlets written against vs haue endeuoured to set downe all poyntes that were dealt with in our sayd conference with as much trueth concerning the substance of the matter as our diligence and memory and the remembrance of other also could possibly attayne vnto Alexander Nowell William Daiie ¶ The three last dayes conferences had in the Tower with Edmund Campion Iesuite the 18 23 and 27. of September 1581. collected and faithfully set downe by M. Iohn Feilde student in Diuinitie Nowe perused by the learned men themselues and thought meete to be published Ianuarij 1. 1583. ⧠To the Christian Reader grace and peace THou hast here gentle Reader a true report of the whole substance of the conferences had in the Tower the last three dayes faythfully gathered out of the notes of diuers that wrote there and afterwarde perused by the learned men them selues and nowe lastly published by authoritie If any man be inquisitiue why they were set forth no sooner he may vnderstande that being priuate conferences it was thought not much requisite to make thē publikely knowen neither had they bin now set forth if the importunitie of the aduersaries by their sundry vntrue and contrary reportes made and scattered amongst their fauourites had not euen perforce drawen thē forth If Campions answeres be thought shorter thē they were thou must knowe that he had much wast speach which being impertinent is nowe omitted although I protest nothing is cut off from the weight and substance of the matter for of that I made conscience and had speciall regarde Againe if the repliers speaches seeme to be more ample it is because their authorities then alleadged onely in Greeke or Latine are nowe at large put downe both in Greeke Latine and English But for the arguments and answeres I was euen religious faythfully to reporte them as they were Wherein I appeale to all the hearers in Gods sight to whose grace I commit thee Iohn Feilde ⧠A remembrance of the conference had in the Tower with Edmunde Campion Iesuite by William Fulke and Roger Goade Doctours in Diuinitie the 18. of September 1581. as followeth AFter that Master D. Fulke had made a godly prayer for direction in that action that it woulde please God to confirme the faithfull and to confounde the obstinate and wilfull that Campion denying to pray with them had superstitiously all to be crossed himselfe Master D. Fulke beganne with this preface in effect D. Fulke Where as there hath bene some proceeding with you before and we are come by order to the thirde chapter of your booke where you slaunder our Church of Englande the whole Church of God for the definition of the Catholike Church for that we define it so as it shoulde be inuisible we come to prooue both by the Scriptures and Fathers that it is inuisible But this I woulde haue knowen vnto you that our
faith being of things that are not seene You haue graunted many absurdities this daye while you labour to defende that the Church on earth is alwayes visible And now the conclusion is worst of al that the visible Church for which you are so earnest is proued to be no article of faith Campion Why may not a man see yet beleeue Peter sawe him whom he beleeued saying thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God c. Fulke That which hee sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge but that which he confessed Christ to be the sonne of God was of faith and not of sense For flesh and blood reuealed it not vnto him but God from heauen That which Peter sawe of Christ with his bodily eyes was seene of many vnbeleeuing Iewes and of Iudas the traytor but his confession which came of faith he had not by bodily sight but by diuine reuelation It is not of faith to see men which are the members of the Church but to see them as they are members of the Church that is of faith therfore that which is seene of the Church is not of faith Camp Why you said the Church might be seene by experimentall faith as Peter sawe Christ and beleeued Fulke When said I so Campion Euen now when you spake of Peter Fulk I neuer thought it much lesse did I speake it It is needfull there should be writing els I see you would outface the matter I said the cleane contrarie That which Peter sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge and not faith that which he beleeued and confessed he sawe not Euen so I say that which we beleeue and confesse in our Creede of the Catholike Church wee neither do see neither can we see Campion I can see the whole world though I cannot see it all at once so I can see the Catholike Church in her parts although I cannot see it all at once or in one place Fulke Whatsoeuer you can see at seuerall times and in seuerall places of the Catholike Church is no article of faith For that which we beleeue of the Catholike Church is not seene at any time or in any place Campion That is true Fulke Ergo the whole Catholike Church and euery part thereof as it is of faith is not visible Here Campion of himselfe brake vp Campion Shall we meete againe It were to be considered of what question we shall talke Here question being made what point they should deale vpon and being asked whether he would defend the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ he denied to medle therein as being daungerous vnles leaue might be obtained of her Maiesties most honourable Counsail Then being demanded whether he woulde deale with that question in the after noone Whether the Church might erre he consented the company present agreeing therunto And so the houre was appointed at two of the clocke after dinner the Replyers hauing no longer time to prouide their arguments In the after noone ⧠The Question whether the visible Church may erre FIrst because promise was made in the forenoone that those places which were omitted should bee shewed D. Goade brought forth his place out of Chrysostome vpon Math. 5. Rursus eos per ista ad bene viuendum ac diligetiam cohortatur ostendens vt studeant esse soliciti quasiante omniū oculos constituti in medio orbis terrarum theatro Nolite inquit aspicere quia in isto nunc residemus loco in exigua sumus parte certaminis Sic enim eritis manifesti cunctis quemadmodum ciuitas in montis vertice collocata vel sicut lucerna in domo super candelabrū relucens Againe by these things he exhorteth them by diligence of well liuing that they might stande to be carefull as they that are set before all mens eyes and in the middest of the Theatre of the whole world Do not you regarde saith he that we remaine nowe in this place and are but in a small part of our battle for you shal be so manifest to all men as a citie placed vpon the top of a hill or as a candle shining in a house vpon a candlestick c. Here you see by the iudgement of Chrysostome expounding the place that it onely respecteth the Apostles which you denied to day For he exhorteth them to liue well as those that are set in the sight and eyes of all and therefore must be carefull howe they beare them selues vpon that open stage of the whole worlde being as a citie vpon an hill Campion The place is nothing against me for it pertaineth to the whole Church Doth Chrysostome cōtrarie any thing spoken by me doeth not their function their faith and religion their place shew that this is not spoken onely to them Goade These are but wordes It is plaine hee noteth their doctrine by the salte and their conuersation by the light Campion He speaketh not any thing contrarie to that which I haue said Goade Yes you say the place meaneth the whole Church to proue the visibilitie thereof as a citie set vpon an hill can not bee hidde Whereas Chrysostome interpreteth it of the Ministerie onely as is manifest by the word Salt the whole drift of the place Campion Of all other first it belongeth to the Prelates then to their flockes as I haue shewed you by the example of a Master of a familie Goade It belongeth in deede to the flocke also to liue well but this place is not directed vnto them It is absurde against the whole scope of the place to make a general conclusion from a particular from the Apostles to the whole Church Campion The Apostles were faithfull they include the whole Church as they were Christians and not Apostles Goade Why then that which was spoken to the Apostles was likewise spoken to the Church But it was said to the Apostles Drinke you all of this ergo to the whole Church Campion That was personall and in respect of their functiō he spake onely in respect of those that were present but there was none present but the Apostles like that which was saide to the Apostles Go ye and preach to all nations baptizing c. doeth he therefore commande the people also to preache and minister the Sacraments Goade The rase is farre vnlike The receauing of the Sacramentes belong to all Christians they must all receaue And though preaching the word and ministring in respect of the funetion be onely appropriate to the Apostles and Ministers yet the word and Sacraments are commō to al Christians So by manifest difference it appeareth that the commādement Go preach is personall belonging to one calling and the commandement Drinke ye all of this is generall to all the faithfull Campion There is no place in the institution that cōmandes the common people to drinke or not to drinke Goade The Apostle the best interpreter of Christes institution applieth it to the whole Church 1. Cor. 11. verse 23. That
which I receaued of the Lord c. And by the same reason you may say as was said before there is no commandement to receaue the Communion Campion There is no coÌ„mandement in that institutioÌ„ that the lay people should receaue the Communion Fulke That is a shamefull absurditie But nowe seeing the place is shewed let vs come to the question agreed vpon Whether the Church militant 〈◊〉 erre That it may 〈◊〉 I proue thus Whatsoeuer error is incident to euery member is incident to the whole But it is incident to euery member to erre Ergo to the whole Campion I deny both the Maiorand Minor Fulke Why the Maior is from a place in Logique that which is incident to euery part must needes be incident to the whole as euery part of a mans body is subiect to corruption therefore the whole body is subiect to corruption Campion There is no such place in Logique Euery man may erre but not the whole gathered together Your example is not like for the whole hath a promise and so hath not euery particular man Fulke The whole hath no promise that it shall not erre more theu euery particular member for euery member of Christ hath the spirit of Christ which is the spirit of truthe and therefore the same promise that the whole hath Campion Why then there should be no heretikes Fulke Yes heretikes may be within the Church but not of the Church Si ex nobis essent permansissent nobiscum saith Saint Iohn If they had bene of vs they had abidden with vs. Camp They were of vs in apparance in outward shewe Fulke I denie that they were of vs though in outward profession they seemed to bee of vs for in deede they were neuer of vs. Iohn 3. They went out from vs but they were neuer of vs. And he addeth the reason For if they had bene of vs they had remained with vs. They were within the Church but they were neuer of the Church Campion Christ saith of them that fall away in persecution that they beleeued the Gospel therfore before persecution they were of vs but they departed from vs c. they were of vs according to faith though they were not according to election Fulke Christ speaketh not there of true iustifying faith nor of the elect but of those that beleeued for a time For if they had bene of vs they would haue remained still with vs but they were not of vs neither according to iustifying faith nor according to election Camp The meaning of Iohn is they were not of vs according to the election of God yet they were of the militant Church which conteineth both good and euill Fulke It is true that in the visible Church be conteined both good and euill but the elect onely are of the Church Campion Why what say you by Dauid when he coÌ„mitted adulterie was he elect and the childe of God Fulke I say he did wickedly but yet he was and remained elect and the childe of God Campion This is strange But I say when he coÌ„mitted adulterie he was the childe of the deuill for it is plaine He that committeth sinne is the seruant of sinne But Dauid committed sinne Ergo he was the seruant of sinne and the childe of the deuill Goade The meaning of the place is that he that giueth him selfe ouer to sinne is the seruant of sinne to be led wholy by it in whom sinne reigneth But no particular sinne in the elect doeth make the children of God to become the children of the Deuil neither doth separate them from the hope of saluation Fulke He that is once a true member of Christ can neuer become a member of the Deuill Campion Then once good and neuer euill Fulke That followeth not Hee may fall into euill but neuer finally Goade The place is to be vnderstodde of him that falleth of malice and not of him that falleth by infirmitie Campion He that falleth into adulterie falleth malitiously for he may resist if he will For euery member of the Church hath power to withstand sinne if he will Fulke Nowe we shall haue free will Campion I meane not of him selfe but by grace For when God hath giuen him grace he may if he will resiste Answere me this place He is the seruant of sinne that committeth sinne Fulke You were answered before Campion Why then you holde that a Catholike falling into adulterie is still the childe of God I graunt that for euery offeÌ„ce God doth not cast out his sonnes For in a great house In magna domo there be many sonnes which though they be disobedieÌ„t they cease not to be sonnes till they be cast out c. but when they are cast out they are no more the sonnes of God Fulk God casteth out none of his siâ—…es For if they be sonnes they are also heyres They are the Apostles wordes Camp I say they are sonnes for the tune which are cast out Eijcit in exteriores tenebras He casteth them out into vtter darknes He that had not the nuptial garment maketh this claime to be the sonne of God and sitteth down amongst Gods children but he is cast out into vtter darkenes Fulk But he was neuer any sonne but an hypocrite therfore no maruaile if he were cast out S. Paul saith that a sonne is an heire Camp Why are not all that are baptiâ—… the sonnes of God Fulk No for they haue not all the spirit of adoption Camp Why then what iudge you of infants that die without Baptisme or immediatly after they are baptized are they not the children of God Fulke I take not vpon me to iudge But if they bee not Gods elect baptisme cannot make them his children Camp Then Christ commanded baptisme in vaine if it saue not those that are baptized Fulke That is not so for there is a necessary vse of baptizing though the holy Ghost be not giuen to euery one that receiueth baptisme I baptize with water saith Iohn Baptistâ—… but Christ baptizeth with the holy Ghost Camp I wil proue that infants are without siâ—… therefore must needes be saued For if they haue sinne they must either haue original sinne or actual sinne but being baptized they haue neither of both for originall sinne is taken away by baptisme as for actual sinne they neuer committed any ergo they are without sinne Fulke Originall sinne is not taken away from any in this life but it is not imputed to the elect M. Lieutenant M. Doctours the question that was appointed before dinner was Whether the visible Church may erre Goade M. Lieutenant he continually draweth vs into newe questions to auoid the matter in controuersie Shall I enter that question I will recite some Churches in the Apostles times aske your iudgemeÌ„t of theÌ„ then go to mine argumeÌ„t The Churches of Corinth of Galatia what say you to theÌ„ The Church of Corinth though they had a promise as you said did
must eate The wordes which the Apostle vseth here are both the imperatiue mode in the Greke text Let him examine him selfe and let him eate and drinke Campion I graunt there are two precepts but this is the summe and ende Vt dignè edat That he may eate worthely Fulke Here is the booke see it and reade it this is the originall giue him the booke it is a reasonable great printe Campion You are stil vrging me to reade Greeke what childish dealing is this can I not see the imperatiue mode aswell in the Latine as in the Greke shall this disaduantage the cause I haue I thanke God and you shall know it asmuch Greke as wil serue my turne and when there is occasion to vse it I will shewe it But is not the Latin toÌ„gue as good a toÌ„gue as the Greeke c. Fulke You were best confesse your ignorance We make not tongues the measure of the truthe but we bring the originall to preuent your cauillations and your finding faulte with translations But I will deale with you with an other argument The whole Church did thinke it necessarie for infantes to receaue Ergo the whole Church hath erred c. Campion Nowe we shall haue a question whether infantes may receaue so we shall runne into all questions Fulke Not so But I will proue that Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church with him as S. Augustine confesseth held this error that it is necessary for infantes to receiue the communion which you your selfe holde to be an error seeing you affirme it is not of necessitie by Christes commandement that any lay men should receiue it You shal heare the wordes of Augustine and of Innocentius both as Augustine citeth them Why are you afraide of the place before you come at it let me reade it Saint Augustine citeth the wordes of Innocentius out of his Epistle to the Bishops of Numidia Lib. 2. ad Bonifacium contra duas epist. Pelag. cap. 4. Haec enim eius verba sunt Illud vero quod eos vestra fraternitas asserit praedicare paruulos aeternae vitae praemijs etiam sine baptismatis gratia posse donari perfatuum est Nisi enim manducauerint carnem filij hominis biberint sanguinem eius non habebunt vitam in semetipsis qui autem hanc eis sine regeneratione defendunt videntur mihi ipsum baptismum velle cassare For these are his wordes But where as your brotherhoode affirmeth them to preach that litle children may be rewarded with the gift of eternall life euen without the grace of Baptisme it is a very foolish thing For except they shall eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ and drinke his blood they shall haue no life in them selues But they which defende this vnto them without regeneration seeme to me that they wil make frustrate baptisme it selfe Upon which wordes of Innocentius Saint Augustine inferreth Ecce beatae memoriâ—… Innocentius papa sine baptismo Christi sine participatione corporis sanguinis Christi vitam non habere paruulos dicit Behold the Pope Innocent of blessed memorie saith that litle children cannot haue life without the participation of the body and blood of Christ. In these wordes Saint Augustine sheweth the generall practise of the Church was that infantes should receaue because it was thought necessary vnto saluation Campion It was onely a practise it was no opinion of necessitie of saluation Fulke Saint Augustine writeth against the Pelagians that held that Baptisme was not necessarie for infantes and that infantes might be saued without Baptisme against whome he reasoneth thus Infantes cannot be saued without they receaue the communion but they cannot receiue the communion vnles they be first baptized ergo infantes cannot be saued vnlesse they be baptized And to proue that they cannot be saued except they receaue the communion he alleaged the decree or diffinitiue sentence of Innocentius Campion Saint Augustine sayth not that the whole churth thought it necessarie to saluation But when Innocetius commanded that infantes should communicate it was but a necessitie of the commandement the necessitie was not in the thing but to keepe the vnitie of the Church and so no error of faith but a lawful practize of the Church but shewe the decree Fulke You haue heard the wordes of Innocentius out of his synodicall Epistle and thus Saint Augustine citeth his decree Ecce beatae memoriae Innocentius papa sine baptismo Christi c. Lo Innocentius the Pope of blessed memorie c. Campion There is no such decree I will beleeue none of your notes He saith they be damned vnles they be baptized but he sayeth not they be damned except they receaue the communion Fulke He saieth both you shall see the booke seeing you will not credit my notes Goade Upon supposition as before I will suppose as you beleeue coÌ„cerning the Church of Rome The head as you hold him of that Church hath erred in matter of faith ergo the Church being the members are subiect to error Campion I denie your Antecedent Goade Saint Peter did erre in faith and that after the sending downe of the holy Ghost vpon him and the rest therefore the principall head of the Church as you accompt of Peter Campion He did not erre in faith I knowe the place Gal. 2. It was a matter of manners not of doctrine For it was but a litle dissimulation Goade It was matter of doctrine for it was somewhat concerning that where about the CouÌ„cill was gathered at Hierusalem touching Circumcision Campion Ye vtterly mistake it for it was about the obseruation of the Lawe by the Gentiles and not concerning Circumcision Goade I nowe well remember it was not directly about the question of Circumcision But it is certaine Peter was in that error that the Gospell pertained not at all to the Gentiles vntill hee was reformed by vision Act. 10 For then at leÌ„gth he said Nunc tandem comperio c. Now at length I finde c so hee was for a time in error But for the place Gal. 2. it is saide Non ambulauit recto pede ad veritatem euangelij Hee walked not with a right foote according to the truth of the Gospel c. Camp It was but a small matter of dissimulation in maners Goade The text saith Paul withstoode him to the face because he was blame worthy and iustly to be reproued therefore it was no small matter And Augustine against Hierome De Petro iure reprehenso Epist. 19. doth iustifie this open reproofe by S. Paul though Hierome laboured to lessen this faulte c. Campion And so do I. But this proueth not that it was any matter of faith Fulke It was against the truthe of the Gospell Truthe is contrary to error Ergo it was an error of faith Camp I haue saide the faulte was in maners for dissimulation When I sawe that he did not walke well or right c. as at
this day any poore Priest may tell the Pope seeing the Pope to erre in manners and may say vnto him Syr why do you so Fulke But that is against your owne Canon Law For what so euer the Pope doth no man may say Syr why did you so Campion I thinke there can bee shewed no such wordes in the Lawe Fulke I pray you answere me Did Peter dissemble against his conscience or with it Surely he did it not for any worldly respect but because he thought it was his dutie in so doing to beare with the weakenes of the Iewes to thinke that aman may dissemble in such a case is a matter of faith therefore his error was a matter of faith and not of facte onely Camp Why in some case the Catholikes thinke they may communicate with you come to your Churches you againe cōmunicate with vs go to our churches dispute conferre with vs c. Fulke I would wish you to conteine your selfe I knowe where you are It is a matter that doth not belong vnto you You drawe to a thing you ought to be silent in It is a matter of state it were best for you to leaue such things Camp I meane to dispute what do you threaten Fulk No but I giue you good coūsail I am more your friend then you are aware of I thinke you are already founde deepe enough in such matters But to an other argument The generall Councill confesseth that it may erre Ergo the Church may erre Camp In deede this is to the point if you can proue it Fulke Answere directly and you shall see I will proue it so as you shall not be able to auoyde it The whole councill prayeth in the ende of euery generall Council in a set forme of prayer that God will pardon their error ergo they confesse they may erre c. for thus they saye Te in nostris principijs occursorem poposcimus te quoque in hoc fine iudiciorū nostrorū pro excessibus indultorem adesse precamur scilicet vt ignorantiae parcas vt errori indulgeas c. This is the very forme of their prayer Wee prayed that thou wouldest be an ayder in our beginnings thee also in this ende of our iudgements we pray to be present as a pardoner of our excesse that is to say that thou wouldest spare our ignorance and pardon our error Here you see plainly they confesse they may erre when they desyre pardon of their errors Campion Master Doctor they pray against your errors doe they not that God would pardon your errors Fulke They pray that if they themselues haue erred they may be pardoned they speake of their owne errors committed in their owne Councill and the wordes that followe doe plainely expresse the same Campion I would see the printed booke and first I woulde knowe whether they speake of any error of faith then secondly I would know if it can be shewed wherein the Councill erred Fulke Seeing the Councill by this prayer confesseth that it may erre what neede it be shewed wherein it erred Campion Was this prayer said in the Councill of Trent Fulke I know not but it is the prayer that is appointed to be said after euery Councill Campion I answere the Councill of Trent will not acknowledge any error it was some matter of facte Fulke Their wordes are plaine that they may erre not onely in facte but also in faith and therefore they pray to be pardoned in both Et quia conscientia remordente tabescimus ne aut ignorantia nos traxerit in errorem aut praeceps forsitan voluntas impulerit iustitiam declinare ob hoc te poscimus te rogamus vt si quid offensionis in hac Concilij celebritate contraximus cōdonare ac remissibile facere digneris And because our owne conscience accusing vs we do faint lest either ignorance hath drawen vs into error or hasty will perhaps hath driuē vs to decline from iustice we pray thee we beseech thee that if wee haue committed any offence in the celebration of this Council thou wouldest vouchsafe to forgiue it and to make it pardonable Campion That very worde declareth that they meane of some error in facte not of doctrine They pray that if they haue ignorantly erred from iustice they might be pardoned Fulke Those thinges which the Councill doth wisely distinguishe you do vnwisely confound They acknowledge that ignorance might drawe them into error and heady will drawe them from iustice they distinguish error from iniustice and desire to bee pardoned of both As for the booke it shal be brought We could not haue bookes here for we agreed vpon the question but immediatly before dinner and could not go out of the place since for bookes but it shal be shewed M. Lieutenant Here M. Lieutenant told them the time was past but M. D. Fulke desired to haue one agument more Fulke The Councill of Nice 2. decreed an error therefore the Church may erre Camp Now we shall haue the matter of Images Fulke You are Nimis acutus you will leape ouer the stile or euer you come at it I meane not to speake of Images Campion Well then I denie the Antecedent Fulke The Synode decreed that Angels Archangels soules of men c. haue bodies are visible circumscriptible and this is an error ergo they decreed an error c. Camp They decreed no such thing Fulke You shall heare the wordes of the Councill Actione 1. First that saying of one Iohānes Bishop of Thessalonica was read in these wordes De angelis archangelis eorū potestatibus quibus nostras animas adiungo ipsa Catholica ecclesia fic sentit esse quidem intelligibiles sed non omnino corporis expertes inuisibiles Concerning Angels and Archangels and the powers of them to which also I adioyne our soules the Catholike Church her selfe doeth so thinke that they are in deede intelligible but not altogether without bodies and inuisible Which wordes of Iohānes Thessalonicēsis the Archbishop of Cōstantinople Tharasius who was prolocutor of the Councill abridgeth and concludeth vpon them saying Ostendit autem pater quod angelos pingere oporteat quando circumscribi possunt vt homines apparuerunt This father hath shewed that we must paint the Angels also seeing they may be circumscribed haue appeared as men Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine The holy synode said Yea my lord Here you see the decree of the whole Synode approuing the saying of Iohannes Thessalonicensis and the conclusion of Tharasius thereupon Campion Shewe me the decree and let me see the Canon many things are spoken in Councils that are not the Canons Fulke I haue read the decree Campion Shew me the Canon reade their Canon Fulke As though euery Council hath set forth Canōs many Councils haue no Canons neither hath this any that I know You shew your selfe a man well read in the Councils that will exact
time of the institution Camp Nay we ground sufficiently vpon that place though Christes body be now glorified yet we do not builde vpon glorification but vpon the wordes This is my body which Christ hath spoken and therefore it is his body Goade But you are not yet resolued what kinde of body It is an other now from that it was then Camp Yet the same bodie though differing in condition Christ cannot be wounded now as afore yet the same flesh Goade I do not denie the same body in substance to bee nowe that was then but you see that the presence of a glorified bodie which you affirmed is not grounded vpon Hoc est corpus meum But I leaue this argument Goade Let vs conclude with prayer Almightie Lord and merciful father we yeelde thee humble thankes for thy manifolde benefites bestowed vpon vs especially yâ— thou hast vouchsafed vs the knowledge and loue of thy heauenly trueth contained in thy holy worde which thou hast denied vnto many others leauing theÌ„ in their owne peruerse blindnes we beseeche thee to encrease daily in vs more and more the true knowledge of thee of thy sonne Iesus Christ whom thou hast sent vouchsafe to make thy truthe so much the more deare and precious vnto vs for that it hath enemies that daily seeke to obscure and impugne the same and as for those that goe aâ—…traie so many of them as pertaine vnto thy kingdome we beseeche thee in thy good time to call to lighten their mindes and to mollifie their heartes that we may together with one heart and one mouth glorifie thee thorowe our Lord Iesus Christ. Amen ⧠The disputation in the afternoone the same daye The second question or assertion of Campion The question After the wordes of Consecration the bread and wine are transubstanciated into the body and blood of Christ. Fulke LEt vs beginne with prayer O almightie God and most merciful father we humbly submit our selues before thy maiestie and doe vnfainedly acknowledge that our heartes are full of ignorance and blindnes so that wee cannot vnderstande thy wonderfull trueth by our selues nor see it when it is reueiled by thee except it please thy maiestie by thy holy spirite to lighten our darkenes giue sight to our blindnes Wherefore we humbly beseech thee to assiste vs by thy grace and to giue vs sight to see thy trueth and strength to defende the same against all thine enemies that the weake may be confirmed the obstinate confounded and thy name glorified through Iesus Christ our Lorde Because you tooke a time to finde those wordes which you reported to be in my booke and I see the booke in your hand I pray you reade them if you haue founde them Camp The booke is mistaken it is not that booke I meant Fulke It is the booke that you named Camp I am sure you do not disclame the opinion Fulke As I tolde you in the forenoone I do disclame it in such sorte as it was vttered by you which you are not able to proue to be affirmed by me Campion You make inuocation of Saintes a matter of great waight Fulke The Church did erre in that point but not as you Papistes do erre in it There is great difference betweene their errour and yours But let vs come to the appointed question which is against Transubstantiation I proue there remaineth the substance of bread and wine in the sacrament after consecration Our Sauiour dranke the same that his Apostles did But our Sauiour dranke wine Ergo his Apostles dranke wine Camp I deny that our Sauiour dranke of the coÌ„secrated wine Fulke The words of the Euangelist are plaine that our Sauiour Christ spake I wil drinke no more from henceforth of the fruite of the vine These wordes are plaine of wine for the blood of Christ is not the fruite of the vine Camp This signifieth that our Sauiour did eate indefinitly whether hee did eate of the same bread or drinke of the same cup of wine which he gaue I doubt of it he did eate drinke with theÌ„ Fulk He protested that he would not drinke any more of that which he gaue But that which he gaue vnto them was wine Therefore he dranke of the same wine Camp This text conuinceth it not Fulke Yes plainely Camp He speaketh of that wine which was drunke at supper for all was wine if there had bene 20. gallons before consecratioÌ„ Fulke He speaketh of the wine in his hande for whereto els hath the pronowne this relatioÌ„ After he had taken the cup in his hand immediatly he faith I will not drinke any more of this fruit of the vine Camp He had supped with them hee had eaten the Pascall lambe with them he would not take any more repast with them in this life till his resurrection as afore therfore it is to be referred to the action that went before Fulke It is plaine that he speaketh of the same wine which he had in his hande which he gaue vnto them And Chrysostomes wordes declare the same in Math. Homil. 89. Sedcuius rei gratia non aquam sed vinuÌ„ post resurrectionem bibit perniciosam quandaÌ„ haeresin radicitus euellere voluit eorum qui aqua in mysterijs vtuntur ita vt ostenderet quia quando hoc mysterium traderet vinum tradidit iam post resurrectionem in nuda mysterij mensa vino vsus est Ex germine auteÌ„ ait vitis quae certè noÌ„ aquam sed vinuÌ„ producit But for what cause did he not drinke water but wine after his resurrection His purpose was to pull vp by the rootes a certaine pernicious heresie of them which vse water in the mysteries so that he shewed that both when he deliuered this mysterie he deliuered wine and nowe also after his resurrection in the onely table of the mysterie hee vsed wine Of the fruite of the vine saith hee which verely bringeth foorth wine and not water Campion All this makes for me Fulke You shall heare howe it maketh for you Here you see that he dranke of that which he deliuered to his disciples And he dranke wine Therefore he deliuered wine to his disciples Campion He deliuered that which had the shew of wine doth he say that he gaue wine Fulke He saith Vinum tradidit He deliuered wine or he gaue wine Campion Goe to he deliuered consecrated wine He did consecrate wine and did giue it vnto them Fulke He gaue consecrated wine Ergo he gaue wine Campion I denie your argument for consecrated wine is not wine Fulke Then he gaue wine that was not wine For Chrysostome saith Vinum tradidit He gaue wine Camp He gaue that that was wine Fulke Chrysostome sayth That which hee deliuered was wine when he deliuered it or els howe did hee take away the heresie of those that brought in water if he had not giuen wine Campion The meaning of Chrysostome is to bring in wine against
not vouchsafe the Doctours an answere shall they be sent away before they haue receiued their answere Camp They wrote vpon occasion against an heretike hauing affiance in workes Charke Be it so then they write aswell against Papists hauing affiance in workes Camp They had affiance in workes done without Christ and are therefore reproued by the Fathers Charke This is onely sayde to shake them all off with one false distinction Agayne it was a straunge occasion you speake of that made the Fathers write an vntrueth But rather you are straunge to expounde them directly against their wordes saying Faith onely doeth iustifie I could here helpe you with a better answere which the better learned on your side vse to this obiection Camp It was the heresie that most troubled Christians in the Primitiue Church Charke This is a newe question and in doubt But howe will you euer bee able to proue that the Apostle disputing for iustification by fayth against iustification by woorkes excludeth onely Paganisme Answere this Camp I haue answered Charke In deede you haue stil somwhat to say but not to answere that point of the argument which most woundeth your cause Therefore a Syllogisme against your shift The Apostle excludeth the morall Lawe from iustifying Therefore your distinction is wast Camp But he excludeth not charitie and good workes Charke What a But is that Is there any charitie or be there any good workes not conteyned vnder the morall and eternall Lawe of God If the deedes of the morall Lawe be shut out from the causes of our iustification by S. Paul what doore can you open to let them in againe Camp I say charitie and good workes are not excluded Charke And I say this is still to begge the question and not to answere the Argument So your doctrine is sufficiently ouerthrowen Walker Besides a great sort of places that master Charke hath brought Sadolet one of your owne hath a plaine place in Epist. ad Rom. Abraham attulit tantum fidem non sua opera And againe Quantum quisque affert de sua iustitia tantum defert de diuina beneficentia c. Camp It is but lost time that you you alleadge Sadolet Hee was but a man of late yeres whose credite is not to be set against the determination of the whole Church besides his meaning was that man should not trust in his owne workes Walker You will allowe no man neither those that are against you nor with you But if he had dealt as soundly in other things as in this he had bene to be striued withall He sheweth by an apt similitude that if a man take a Potte hauing some troubled water in it and goeth to the cleare water to fill it the troubled foule water in the potte doeth not become cleare but rather troubleth and defileth the water which was cleare Euen so the more we bring of our owne the lesse we attribute to God and the lesse we receiue from God Wee must bring nothing of our owne to God It is troubled water when we mingle our workes and righteousnes with Gods Camp Let the similitude be rehearsed It is an apt similitude He that commeth to be iustified by Christ must not bring troubled water but cleare that is those good workes that he did before and those prayers that he made before his morall deedes his almes his fasting c. For all the morall workes that are done before they are troubled water but those we doe afterwards they are made cleare in the Passion of Christ although they be not in all respects perfect Charke I wil so proue that good workes haue no place in iustification that you shall not be able to answere and because the Doctors can haue no answere I will returne to Scripture Sanctification and iustification are two sundry things Therefore good workes the fruites of sanctification haue no place in iustification Camp Make your Syllogisme Charke Whatsoeuer is an effect of sanctification that followeth is not a cause of iustification that went before But charitie and other good woorkes are effectes of sanctification which followeth Therfore they be no causes of iustification which goeth before Answere if you can Camp I deny that they are onely of sanctification they are of both Charke They be disparata handled by the Apostle as diuers things also the one some degrees before the other Therfore you doe euil to confound priora posteriora the effectes of the latter with the causes of the former Camp Is this the argument that can not be answered I say whosoeuer is iustified is also sanctified and so good workes proceede from both Charke Let all men marke the absurditie of this speache If good workes proceede from sanctification and sanctification from iustification howe can good workes goe before them both as a cause seeing they come after both as an effect Thus you are entoyled Here was an open misliking of the answeres and some speach of making an ende Then M. Charke saide I woulde faine vse one argument more to turne Campion out of all his shiftes and to let the company vnderstand his weakenes and especially the weakenes of his cause Campion Let vs heare what argument this is whereof you make such bragges Charke The authoritie and trueth of scriptures for my cause maketh me so confident Therefore marke the argument well We are iustified by Imputation onely Therefore by faith onely Camp Nego Maiorem I deny your Maior Charke I proue the Maior if you so call it Christ died onely by Imputation Therefore we liue onely by Imputation and are consequently iustified by faith onely Camp I deny the argument Charke I proue it by Analogie Christ died onely through the imputation of our sinne Therefore if we liue we liue onely by the imputation of his righteousnes And therfore to say that we liue by any imputation of our owne good workes is asmuch as to say that Christ died by imputation of some of his owne sinne For this analogie and proportion betwixt the causes of Christes death and the causes of our life doth necessarily hold and must diligently be obserued Camp I answere to your similitude Charke If it be a similitude it is by good analogie and demonstration of trueth out of the scripture It is you that abuse the hearers with similitudes that are not similia my argument is demonstratiue Camp I answere then to your analogie So farre as the scripture doth intend it holdeth like as Christ did beare our sinnes so we haue in vs the iustice of Christ. The righteousnes that we haue is giuen vs by Christ. Christ had our sinnes by imputation onely because hee was not capable of sinnes inherent But we are capable of iustice inherent which Christ doth giue vs and therefore in vs we haue the iustice of Christ both by imputation and also inherent giuen by him And therefore it is called the iustice Non qua ipse iustus est sed qua nos iustos fecit Not