Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	answer_v	argument_n	prove_v	3,101	5	5.5305	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01273	A disputacio[n] of purgatorye made by Ioh[a]n Frith which is deuided in to thre bokes. The first boke is an answere vnto Rastell, which goeth aboute to proue purgatorye by naturall phylosophye. The seconde boke answereth vnto Sir Thomas More, which laboureth to proue purgatorye by scripture. The thirde boke maketh answere vnto my lorde of Rochestre which most leaneth vnto the doctoures	Frith, John, 1503-1533.	1531 (1531)	STC 11386.5; ESTC S109726	90,667	148

their deeth For when I saye that I wyll not forgeue hym neyther in my liffe nor after my deeth I meane that I wyll neuer forgeue hym and make that addicion because he shulde not of folysh nes loke for any such forgevenesse But thus foloweth the argumēt well it shall not be forgeuen in thys worlde nor in the worl de to come ergo it shall neuer be forgeuen And even so doth Saynte Marce expounde these wordes of christ in the thyrde chaptre For Mathew sayeth in the. xii He that speaketh ag enst the holye goost shall neuer haue yt forgeuen in this worlde nor in the worlde to come Marc. expoundeth yt thus he that spea keth a blaspemye agenst the holye gost hath no remission for ever but is giltye vnto euerlastinge damnacyon But of thys haue I spoken suffycientlye before in solutynge the texte 1. Ioan. 5. both what the synne ys and also how the texte ys to be vnderstande Neyther affe●…meth the scripture in anye place y t anye sinne ys forgeuē after this liffe but saith be readye for ye knowe not the tyme when the lorde shall come as who shulde saye in thys lyfe ys remissyon and full mer cye to ●…e had laboure therfore to attayne yt for after thys lyfe ys no such forgevene sse but euē as y ● lorde fyndeth y ● so shal he iudge y ● Hys nexte last argu mēt of scriptu re is thys ☜ CHryst saeyth as yt ys rehersed in y ● xii of Mathew y ● men shall yelde a rekenynge of everye ydle worde and that shalbe after thys present lyffe Thēwoteth euerye man that by that rekeninge ys vnderstonde a punyshmēt therfore whych shall not be in hell moch lesse in heuē ād therfore cā yt be now here els but in purgatoye 〈◊〉 I haue not harde of a partone that so vnprofytable defendeth hys clyent nor yet of any man that geueth hym sylfe such propre trippes to cast hym selfe excepte he w●…nt aboute to betraye and vtterlye destroye the parte which he wolde seme to fauoure for this texte maketh more agenst him thē anye that he brought before semeth to make wi th him The wordes of Mathewe are these I tell you that of everye idle worde that men spe ake shall they yelde a rekeninge in y ● daye of iu dgement but that leuet●… he out full craftelye Now let vs reason of this texte By the rekenin ge is vnderstonde a punishment for the sinne as Master More sayeth him silfe and this re keninge shalbe vppon the daye of dome ergo then this punishment for sinne can not be before the daye of dome but eyther vppon or els after the daye of dome For god will not first punish them and then after reken with thē to punish them anewe And so is purgatorye quyte excluded For al they that ever imagined anye purgatorye do put it before the iudgement for when christ cometh to iudgement then ceaseth p●…rgatorye as they all consent neyther is there any prayer or sufrage which at that tyme cā do anye helpe at all And so hath master More by this texte geven him silfe a propre fall Here maye you se ●…ow strōge his reasons are and what will happen to him that taketh in hā de to defende the falsehed agenst the truth of goddes worde for his reasons make more agēst him then with him you maye wel knowe that if his matter had bene anye thinge likelye he wol de haue coloured it if a nother facion But sith such a patrone so greatlye commended for his conveyaunce and wysedome handleth this mat ter so slenderlye you maye well mistrust his cau se. Th●…s is the last reason grounded of scripture wher with he hath laboured to proue purgatorye And after his reason he rekeneth vpp the doctoures ād saith for his pleasure that all make for him but as touchinge the doctours I wil make a suffycient answere in the thirde parte which is agenst my lorde of Rochestre Thus he leueth the scripture which he hath full vnmanerlye handled and now endevoureth him silfe to proue his purposse by some pro bable reasons And first he bringeth in his olde argument that the church can not erre to the which reason I nede not to answere for wyllyam Tindale hath declared abundantlye in a treatise which by goddes grace you shall shortlye haue whate the church is and also that it both maye erre and doth erre if the pope ād his adherentes be the church as master More imagineth After this he cōfirmeth his phantasye with phantasticall apparicions sayenge that there haue in everie contre and in everye age ap paricions bene had and wel knowne and testifyed by which men haue had suffycient reuelation and pro●…e of purgatorye How manye haue by goddes most gracious fauoure appered to their frendes after their deeth and shewed them selves holpen and delyuered thence by pil grimages almosedede prayer c̄ If they saye y ● these be lyes then be they moch worse thē their master Luther him silfe for he cōsenteth in his sermons that manye such apparicions be tru●… and if they be true then must there nedes be a purgatorye Here playeth master More the sotle soph●… ●…ter and wolde deceave mē with a fallace which lyeth in this worde true so that whē he sayeth that such apparicions be true this sentence ma ye be taken two maner of wayes One that it is true that such phātastical apparicions do ap peare to diverse and that I thinke no man be so folish but he will graunte him And yet in dede are they no soules but verye devels that so appeare to delude men that they shulde falle from the faith of Christ and make a god of their awne workes trustinge to be saved therebye But to suppose this true y ● they are the soules of purgatorye which so appeare is verye fonde false and agenst al scriptu re for Esai sayeth shall we goo for the quicke vnto the deed that is shall we enquyre of the deed and beleue them in such poyntes as concerne oure welth Naye saith he but vnto the lawe and witnes that is vnto god and his worde And so are we monished by Esay in the. 8. that we beleue no such phantasyes we are also commaunded by the lawe of god that we enquyre not of the deed not for the truth for god abhorreth it Deuteronomye xviij Besides that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus doth vtterlye condemne all such appa ricyons that they are no soules which appeare but verye devels For when the rich man desyred that Lazarus might go and warne his brothren that they shulde not come in to that place of payne Abraham answered that they had Moses and the Prophetes addinge also that if they beleved not them then wolde they not beleue although one shulde ryse agayne and tell it th●…m And so maye I conclude that it were in vay 〈◊〉 to

eternall deeth and dampnacyon And so hath Christ velyvered vs from the pitte wherin is no water that is to saye from hell everlastinge dampnacyon not that we were in hell all readye although we were bounde vnder sinne and readye to be cast therin but because we shuld not entre in to hell This is the pure vnderstondinge of the te●…te Here might I dispute with him both of hell and of limbus patrū but because I will be as shorte as possible is I will deferre that vntill a nother occasion that I may●… reason with him sumwhat at large ANother place is there also in the olde testa ment that putteth purgatorie quyte out of question For sayeth he what is playner then the places which in the boke of the Machabees made mencyon of the devoute remembraunce prayoure almoyse sacrifice to be done for soules when the good and holye man Iudas Machabeus gathered monye amonge the people to buye sacrifyce with all to be offered vp for the soules of them that were deed in the batayle What shifte finde they here Surelye a verye shamlesse shifte and are 〈◊〉 to take them to that taklinge which is their shoteāker alwaye when they finde the storme so greate that they se their shippe goeth al to wracke For first they ●…se to sette some false glosse vnto the texte and if that helpe not then falle they to a shamelesse boldnesse and let not to denye the scripture and all The place which he recyteth is writē 2. Ma chabeo 12. And to saye the truth the boke is not of 〈◊〉 auctorite to make an article of oure faith neyther is it admitted in the canon of y ● hebrues Here he obiecteth that the church hath ●…lowed it and the holye doctoures as S. Hiero me S. Austine and soch other I answere S. Hieromes minde is opened vnto vs by the pistle which he wrote before the proverbes of So lomon his wordes are these Sicut Iudith et Tobie et Machabeorum libros ligit qui●… eo●… ecclesia sed inter canonicas scripturas non reci pit sic et hec duo volumina legat ad edificationem plebis non ad authoritat●…m ecclesiasticorū dogmatum confirmandum That is like as the church doth read y ● bokes of Iudith Thobias and the Machabees but receaveth them not emonge the canonicall scriptures even so let it read these two bokes he meaneth y ● boke of sapience and ecclesiasticus vnto the edefyinge of the people and not to confirme the doctrine of the church therbye And it is nothinge like that S. Austayne shulde dissente from S. Hierom for they were both in one tyme yee and. S. Hierom out lyved S. Austayne And therfore the church coulde not admitte any such bokes eyther before S. Austaynes tyme or in his tyme but that S. Hierom shulde haue knowne of it And so maye you gather that if S. Austayne ●…lowe these bokes or els saie y t the church hath alowed thē you maye not vnderstōde y t they ha ue alowed and receaved them as canonicall scri ptures for then you make S. Hierom a 〈◊〉 But thus you must vndersto●…de it that they ha ue receaved them to be red for the edefyinge o●… the people and not to confirme the doctrine of the church or articles of the faith therby accordinge to S. Hieroms exposition Now may●… you se y t oure shoteanker as he calleth it is so stronge that al his stormes and waves can not once move it for we denye not but that the boke is receaved of y e church to be red and weshewe by S. Hierome for whate enten●… it is receaved and red not to proue any article of oure faith therbye but onlye to ordre oure maner of lyvinge therafter in soch poyntes as are not re pugnaunte vnto the canonicall scripture But yet for this once to do the man pleasu re we will let slippe oure shoteanker and take the sees with him And for all their furious win des ād frothye waves we will never stricke say le so stronge is oure shippe aud so wel belanced Be it in case that this boke of the Macabees were of as god auctorite as Esai yet can he not prove this fyrye and paynefull purgatorye ther●…ye For it speaketh not one worde neyther of fyre nor payne but it speaketh of a sacrifyce offered for the deed that they might be loosed from their sinnes because there is a resurrecciō of the deed which maye well be with out any payne or fyre So that this conclusion is verye ba●… and naked It is good to offer sacrifyce for the deed that they maye be loosed from their sinnes ergo there is a sensible fyre which doth punish the holye ād chosen people of god I am sure there is no childe but he maye perceave y t this argument is nought Besides that it is to be doubted whether Iudas did well or not in offerings this sacrifyce And therfore oug●…t we not of a folish presumpcyon to folowe his facte vntill we knowe how it was accepted Parad venture thou wilt saye that the dede is commended in the sayed te xte where it sayeth But because he considered that they which with godlines had entred theire slepe that is their deeth had good favoure layed vpp in store for them therfore is the remē braunce to praye for the deed hoiye and ho●…esome that they maye be loosed from their sinnes I answere that the persones which were slayne in the battayle for whom this prayer and sacrifyce was made were founde to haue vnder their clokes oblacyons of idolles which were at Iamniam and for that cause were they slayne as it is playne in the texte yee and all the host praysed the right iudgement of god Now these men that were so slayne were dampned by the lawe Deutero 7. which sayeth The images of their goddes thou shalt burne with fyre and se that thou covette not the silver or golde that is on them nor take it vnto the lest thou be snared therwith for it is an abominacion vnto the lorde thy god Bringe not therfore the abominaciō vnto thine house lest thou be a dampned thinge as it is But vtterlye defye it and abhorre it for it is a thinge that must be destroyed Of this maye we evidētlye perceave that albe al●…e 〈◊〉 did this thinge of a good minde yet was he de ceaved for his sacrifyce coulde nothinge helpe them sith they were dampned by the lawe and entred not their slepe with godlinesse as he supposed Huthermore it is evident that the Iewes 〈◊〉 sacrifices for the sinnes of them that lyved Leuitici 4 5 6. 〈◊〉 But how knew they that tho se sacrifyces shuld extend●… them selues vnto the sinnes of the deed And they were commaunded vnder the payne of cursinge that they shuld adde nothinge vnto the worde of god Deuter. 12. Uerelye it is like that the preastes even at that tyme sought their awne profytte