and the Resolution of the Question as far off as when Mr. Knutton began to resolve them for any thing in his Answers so that the truth in the Question in the port of them stands firme and undeniable and the strength of his opposition against you languisheth in its owne weakenesse will but occasion more courage and double resolution unto you in the Truth and that way of God which by some may bee called the way of heresy yet so saith the Apostle worship I the God of my Fathers beleeving all things in the Law and the Prophets Act. 24.14 15. which that you may so doe in the true Knowledge and Holinesse according unto God I shall pray Yours in CHRIST JESVS John Mabbatt QVESTION THE FIRST Whether is the Church of England as it now stands a true Church F. I Premize this that in this Church is much defect in Discipline and in the execution of it in comparison of other Reformed Churches who in this far exceed it the second Part of the Answer is I affirme it is a true Church yea the Spowse of Christ R. In the first part of the Answer nothing is said for the Church of England except it be in way of deniall to which there need be little replie to it The second part of the Answer is a positive affirmation it is a true Church yea the Spowse of Christ but upon what ground proof or reason he is too short to demonstrate They of the Church of Rome will give as positive an affirmation that their Church is a true Church yea the Spowse of Christ Though she be a Harlot therefore a bare affirmation to be such must not be taken 2 Pet. 2.18 here is neither ground nor proof to make good this affirmation therefore if any thing be pretended it is in the following reason F. Because the Church of England hath the matter and form of a true Church the matter of a Church are men and women in a right logicall sense matter which is one of the causes hath this property it is Passive for Action is from the Forme which is called the beginning of doing as matter is of suffering so are men by nature in the internall and reall worke of Grace in conversion passive Such matter the Church of England hath it hath also the forme of a Church the forme of a thing in strict logicall sense is a chief cause which actuates the matter and perfects it it is a constituting cause now the forme or constituting cause of a Church is faith which brings it into relation to Christ this forme our Church hath it hath many true Beleevers R. This argument cannot justifie the Church of England to be a true Church 1. Because what this Argument affirmes to maintaine it so is no more then may be affirmed of the Church of Rome 2. Because it denies all visible Apostolicall Churches as they were planted by the Apostles in the Primative times which may appeare as follows First it grants what it affirmes may be in the Church of Rome thus the matter and forme he expresseth to be the matter and forme of a Church be there the matter saith hee in a right Logicall sense is men and women but men and women are the matter of the Church of Rome ergo the matter is in Rome which is one of the Causes that hath this property it is passive so are men by rature in the internall and reall worke of grace in conversion so is it with all men and women in Rome and in all the World it hath also the forme of a Church which forme hee thus explaines the forme of a thing in strict Logicall sense is a chief cause which actuates the matter and perfects it as he saith action is from the forme which is called the beginning of doing but the Church of Rome hath a forme as a chief cause which actuates the matter and perfects it and is a constituting cause to it which is here proved 2 Thes 2.9.10 Revel 13.4 5.12.13.14.15.16.17 F. Now the forme or constituting Cause of a Church is faith which brings it into Relation to Christ R. Which I denie Faith alone is not a forme or Constituting cause of a Church for what ever is essentiall to the being of the Church of Christ is essentiall to be in the Church considered in its constitution Ephes 2.19 20 21 22. 1 Pet. 2.3 4 5. and for what he affirmes of Faith that it should be a forme or constituting cause of a Church in being in relation to Christ is false there may be such in the Church of Rome have Faith and stand in relation to Christ Revel 18.4 ergo there is faith in some of the Church of Rome that brings it into relation to Christ and is a constituting cause of her to be his Church and Spowse whom hee hath disclaimed and to be a harlot and the mother of whoredomes Rev. 17.5 Therefore for him to say because here is some have Faith and many true Beleevers in the Church of England and this their faith brings it into relation to Christ this forme our Church hath it is no more then may be said of Rome and this doth not make neither one nor the other a true Church 2. This Argument denies all visible Apostolicall Churches as they were planted by the Apostles in the Primitive times First the matter of the Church in the Apostles times were Saints by calling 1 Cor. 1.2 Secondly not simply as men and women but such men and women as professed Faith and Repentance at the least Act. 2.41 3. Now men and women are in the worke of Conversion meerly passive but as they are matter for the Church of Christ they are more then meerly passive not dead stones but living stones because that you have tasted that the Lord is gracious to whom comming as a living Stone yee also as living stones be made a spirituall house 1 Pet. 2.3.4.5 The forme or Constituting cause of a Church is faith which brings it into relation to Christ if he would say any thing in this Argument it is in these words Yet how contrary it is to stand with the Primitive Church may plainly appeare 1. It denies the visibility of Christs Church because the Argument cannot hold but with reference only unto the Church of Christ misticall for Beleevers in all ages places and people by reason of their union and Faith in Christ are called his body Ephes 1.23 and thus they are of his body yet visibly not his Church 2. Faith cannot be onely a forme or constituting cause of the visible Church because first Faith may as well be a forme or constituting cause as well to perticular persons to be a Church of Christ for he hath the same Faith brings him into this relation unto Christ as doth the faith of more and makes him a member of his body mistically yet not his Church visibly For the Scripture never gives the name of Church to one person no
A Briefe or Generall REPLY UNTO Mr. KNUTTONS Answers unto the VII QUESTIONS About the Controversie betwen the Church of ENGLAND AND The SEPARATIST and ANABAPTIST Briefly discussed By JOHN MABBATT Prov. 22.19 20 21. verses Vers 19. That thy Confidence may be in the LORD I have shewed thee this day thou therefore take heed Vers 20. Have not I written unto thee three things in Counsells and Knowledge Vers 21. That I might shew thee the assurance of the words of Truth to answer the words of truth to them that send to thee 2 Tim. 2.9 Even unto bonds but the Word of God is not bound Prov. 30.5 Every word of God is pure he is a shield to those that trust in him Printed in the Yeere 1645. Vpon the Honourable Court of Parliament Englands worthy Patriots be the spirit of magnanimity profunditie of wisedome and sound judgement the pleasure of Industriousnesse the happy reaping of a righteous soweing mercy abundantly and seasonably beshowring the fruits of the ground with a blessed increase for under the defence of the All-protection I doubt not of the free passage of all and every Truth A rich Treasure for Parliament and Kingdome the ground or cause of this following discourse as the seed of it was the Tenents of the Separation Mr. Knutton charged to be unchristian in his opposite writing yet I suppose the blade that riseth from the seed which sometimes an opposite controversie in some sense may be said to bee yet I hope will not be offended at the graine in thee are ripened for the use of the Owner thereof yet will be burne up the Chaffe with unquenchable fire ¶ The Power of safety overshadow the PARLIAMENT and glory dwell in our Land UNto the Pyons inquiring understanding Reader increase of knowledge is a portion of God in promise yours then shall we know the Lord when we follow on to know him Hosea 6.3 And as the weight of all heavenly knowledge is God therein understood so is there a worth in the knowledge of heavenly things in the knowing of them according unto God which knowledge no man hath by nature but only of God and in him enjoyed who manifesting himselfe unto us gives forth the knowledge of things which wee understood not before opening the mouth to confesse him and the things of him though others deny him and will not receive him nor the things of him But like the Jewes that would not beleeve that Christ gave sight unto the man that was borne blind Joh. 9.18 so is it with many too like the Pharisees who would not acknowledge God in it yet would hee that was blind but then seeing confesse Jesus although the Jewes had ordained that if any man did confesse that he was the Christ hee should be excommunicated out of the Synagogue who being cast out by them yet imbraced by Christ So is Christ unto all his holding fast his truths though for it they are excluded by men in reading these few lines in this reply you must not expect Scholler Phrases nor the eloquence of the wisedome of men the Greeks seek after no such things as runnes in the streame amongst men generally in allowance for we are not ignorant how that this way is spoken against every where yet God causeth Truth to gaine such that in receiving it are advantaged by it though there may be as Solomon saith a price in the hand of a fool yet he hath not the heart to take it but in you Beloved let the Word of God dwell plenteously or richly try the spirits search the Scriptures examine the texts of Scriptures alledged in proof in this matter in reply And as you read you shall first have the originall Question then Mr. Knuttons Answer Reason or Objection marked with the Letter F and Ob. wherein there passeth not a word but what was his owne Secondly in Note for that is mine in Replie is noted with the Letter R and A. which matter in Replie wherein it holds out my Judgement and practise with those Churches in the faith and order of the Gospel am willing to be tryed by the Scriptures as knowing that the day shall declare all things approved and what shall be disapproved that matter that is declared unto us shall be approved is the matter that the Scripture evinceth and approveth unto us and whosoever shall walke according to this Rule Peace shall be upon them and Mercy upon the Israel of God desiring not to be found in our owne righteousnesse after the Law but in the righteousnesse of God by faith in Jesus Christ under which covering the Lord everlastingly find you Beloved after your effectuall call of God unto the Faith and Order of the Gospel in Nottingham Grace Mercy and Peace be multiplied unto you from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ although since it hath pleased God to make knowne his truth unto you you are not with us unacquainted with what Controversie Contention Tumults Oppositions that both you and the Churches in London and other parts of the Country have and doe meet withall for walking up to the Light of truth made knowne to us from God who hath fulfilled his promise unto us saying That hee would teach us and lead us in the way that we have not knowne Isai the 42.15 16. Vers in whom also we trust he will fulfill that his promise in Isai 49.11 where he saith I will make all my mountaines as a way and my paths shall be exalted Behold it much rejoyced mee and I was glad to heare that the knowledge of the true and pure Wayes of God was in manifestation unto you in Nottingham which was unknowne and unheard of by me that it was so amongst you untill that which was in opposition against you came out in publike view and Print here in London against you which one having one of the Books knowing it contrary to my judgement and practise gave it me saying here is that takes you to doe which I took and read understanding in it that the Author affirmes that he cannot maintaine in which affirmation of his the truth being opposed was one reason put me upon this Reply to his book the second Reason was in referrence to those persons in Nottingham opposed though unacquainted with any of them yet bearing affection to them as those in that Countie of Aliance from which I had my discent Among whom I hearing the truth imbraced was moved in referrence unto them having to them both an inward and outward relation yet through consciousnesse of mine own inabilitie found some demurre but being by a friend stirred to it and informing me of the desire in the contrary that there might be some answer unto Mr. Knuttons Booke I from a willing principle according unto the former reasons so to doe willingly according to what abillity and time God gave me I have made this Reply that his supposed Answers to these 7. Questions in his Book may appear as they are void
particular Churches gathered by the Apostles preaching and in this he gives himself a second deniall to what he affirmed thus both in the old and new Testament there is no warrant for an Nationall Church by his own grant but saith hee if the judgement of Mr. Brightman and some other learned upon the Revelation be Orthodox and sound then Nationall Churches are spoken of and prefigured by those seven Asian Churches whom that Eagle-eyed Expositor looks upon as Tipes of succeeding Churches and those Churches whom they set out to be their Counterpain as Sardis sets out the Church of Germany Laodicia the Church of England and Philadelphia the Churches of France Helvetia Sueuca Geneva Holland Scotland what ever Mr. Brightman or others say it is not Anthentick and so to be taken without the Scripture saith it Neither is this Mr. Brightman hath said of any great stay to the Church of England whose Counterpaine he sets out from Laodicea of whom God said in Revel 3.16 because thou art Luke-warme and neither hot nor cold it will come to passe that I will spue thee out of my mouth and it may be minded what Mr. Brightman saith that Christ preferreth a blind Papist or no Religion at all before this hodge-podge Lukewarmenesse of which Laodicea and the Church of England if you will have it so doth consist And concerning that in the Old Testament are divers Illustrious Prophesies of a Nationall Church of the Jewes when God shall convert them to bring them back to settle them in their own Kingdome Isai 60.4 Likewise we find saith he the Prophetsspeaking of Nationall Churches amongst the Gentiles which shall come and joyne with the Church of the Jewes but these Prophesies have referrence unto that time after the Jewes calling and conversion which is not yet and so serve not now and we have the Scriptures speaking of some out of every Country Kingdome Nation and People is redeemed out from all the rest is a truth as well as to affirm it of the whole Nations read two Proofes Revel 7.9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17. Revel 21.24 Therefore we see there is nothing hee can say doth prove a Nationall Church therefore not a Nation But conclude with Act. 10.35 in every Nation hee that feareth God and worketh Righteousnesse is accepted with him A Reason or two why a Church in an Nationall consideration cannot bee 1. The Church was so many as could meet together in one place a whole Nation cannot doe so Act. 14. â—7 2. The Church is such a company over whom the Pastor or Pastors of it may discharge that worke of Duty Care Service and watchfulnesse over them as those flocks over which God makes them Overseers now who can fulfill or discharge a Pastorall charge over a whole Nation Act. 20.28 1 Pet. 5.2 3. The Church is such over whom their Pastor or Pastors that are over them are to give account of what Pastor or Pastors will or can be accountable for a whole Nation as their flock according to the Apostles minde as Pastors should be Heb. 13.17 QVESTION III. ¶ Whether are the Ministers in the Church of England sent of God and so are true Ministers or not F. I Affirme they be true Ministers of Jesus Christ sent of God into his Vinyeard to build up his Church and people as living stones upon Christ the chief Corner Stone R. In this Answer in a true Minister we may observe these particulars First he is sent of God 2. The place whether he is sent is into his Vinyeard 3. The worke there that hee is to doe is to build up his Church and People 4. The qualitie of the matter they are to build which is living Stones 5. The foundation they must build upon is Christ the chief Corner Stone But now whether these be in the Ministers of the Church of England examine First a true Minister of Christ is sent of God that is in one of these two wayes 1. Immediately by God as the Apostles were 2. Mediately by the Church in choice in election and ordination lawfully proceeded in according to the rule of the Word of Christ so requiring of it 1. For immediate sending of God as the Apostles were sent so hee doth not say are the Ministers he would plead for are sent he goes not about to show such a pattern as Paul could Paul called to be an Apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God Rom. 1.1.5 1 cor 1.11 But as he doth say is this that they have gifts and exercise their abilities to convert and conforme soules Now saith he their abilitie and fidelity argues that God hath sent them so much may be said of the woman of Samaria was able and faithfull to declare Christ the Messiah to the Samaritans that they beleeved because of her words Joh. 4.39 2. God or Christ may be said to send in a mediate way when a Ministre in a Church is lawfully elected and ordained into the Church of Christ as Act. 14.23 and tell them it is not the greatnesse of his gifts or what he hath done makes him officiously a Minister of the Church till he be called and ordained to it And there can be no true and lawfull election and ordination of a true Minister but in a true Church Act. 14.23 Tit. 1.5 Now for such a call by lawfull election in ordination in the Church as Act. 14.23 to be ordained in the Church thus to justifie those Ministers he pleads for he saith nothing truly to be sent of God and thus from neither of these to sending of God can he justifie them to be Ministers sent of God neither immediately of God as the Apostles nor mediately in the Church and hee may say what he said They be true Ministers of Jesus Christ sent of God but those he sets to plead for to be Ministers are not those Ministers sent of God not immediately as Paul nor mediately called elected ordained in the Church of Christ his Vinyeard into which he saith they are sent But Christ seeing the Labourers standing idle in the Market-place Mat. 20.4.7 saith unto them goe yee also into my Vinyeard and whatsoever is right I will give you and they went their way Vers 7. and his promise is whatsoever is right that shall you receive F. I grant saith he that the calling of the Lordly Prelates as they are described in the second Article of the Covenant and exercise their jurisdiction in their Courts by their substitutes is Antichristian yet the Godly Learned Ministers of this Church called by them are true Ministers R. First he grants the calling is Antichristian and so unlawfull yet see how he contradicts himself if they be Godly men called by them then the call is not Antichristian nor unlawfull but they true Ministers of Christ now what little show of reason is in this is the Call Antichristian in respect of the Prelates calling or the Persons called it is Antichristian in the Caller
vaine in that they villifie and reject one of his Ordinances as matter of no worth or efficacy A. Let it be examined who speaks blasphemy and what else here is said he that speaks truth as the Truth is in Jesus or hee that reproacheth the Saints for speaking the truth as it is in Jesus it is Blasphemy to reproach the Saints Revel 13.5 6. Revel 2.9 Revel 3.9 And who is it that takes the Name of God in vaine he that speaketh Truth or he that beareth false witnesse Who nullifies the Ordinances he that priseth it from pertaking of the preciousnesse of Christ is subjected to it or hee that priseth it in Christ remote from it he that injoyes the inward life and spirituality of that Ordinance in Christ Jesus or he that sees or discovers no further then the out-side of what might agree with Circumcision whose Circumcision may be counted to him uncircumcision and so in an nullity to him Rom. 2.25 Ob. They discover hipocrisy in that they made profession formerly of the Covenant made with God in Baptisme but now since their separation disclaime it A. Let it be examined who discovereth hypocrisy he that from the grace of the Covenant of God in Christ is carried forth to professe his Covenant and Name in obedience to his Truth manifested to him or he that professeth that which hath no being or reality of it in him nor from any manifestation from God to him it should be so which they doe which professe such an Ordinance or Worship to be Gods that is not Gods nor of his appointment Isai 58.2.5 or himself in such or such a Relation unto God in such or such a thing that hee is not so in Relation unto him in as he professeth is Hypocrisy And neither in both these respects it doth not appeare First to professe that Ordinance and Worship to God which his Word hath not made out to us to be his Ordinance and if the baptisme of Children be not so 2. It holds out a profession of that thing to be which cannot appeare so to be nor is not manifested from God so to be neither by his Word commanding nor by his grace manifested that the party the Infant to be in relation unto Christ by Faith according to Mark. 16.16 beleeve and be baptized And hypocrisy by profession doth appeare most palpably in such a thing as this in that forme used in the baptisme of Children this is required of the Childe by way of Question Dost thou beleeve 〈◊〉 an Infant that hath not knowledge nor capeable of understanding nor no sensiblenesse of will to assent unto any thing Wilt thou be baptized in this saith Will your severity in this thing be acquitted before God Gal. 6.7 Ob. This their opinion is but New and upstart there is good reason they should disclaime it and be humbled for it A. The Apostles were in their time charged for new and upstart Doctrine by some should they by good reason therefore disclayme it and be humbled for it and so have denyed Christs doctrine and Truth which was not new but from the beginning Joh. 1. 1 2.1 Joh. 1.1 2 3. so might the Church of Rome have said if they did not so against Luther and others though they brought forth the Ancient Truths of the Gospel of free Justification and renouncing Transubstantiation of Christ reall presence of his flesh and blood in the bread and wine in the Supper they were counted new and upstart shall we say so and that they should have disclaimed the doctrine of free Justification and their renouncing of Transubstantiation and repented of it it was woefull in the instance of Francis Spira who owned the Doctrine of free Justification taught it yet for the feare of them that took part with Rome renounced it who was terrified in his Conscience and cryed out there was no mercy for him Again it is not new nor an upstart opinion but it is as old as the Gospel Churches who in this path walked of whom it is said in Act. 2.41 42. then they that gladly received the Word were baptized 42. vers and they continued stedfast in the Apostles Doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in Prayer Acts 8.12 QVESTION VI. Whether is it lawfull to seperate from all the publike Ordinances and Christian Assemblies in our English Church because there are some defects in Disciplin and in other things amongst us F. I Conceive it is absolutely unlawfull to relinquish Gods holy Ordinance and the Assemblies of Godly Christians in this Church of England because of our mixt Congregation and because of some defects in our Disciplin R. These two things must be made good before it can be absolutely unlawfull to relinquish First that it be a Church Assembly of Saints 2. That the holy ordinances of God are there enjoyed First for a Church Assembly of Saints such a Church Assembly as are stiled Saints by calling 1 Cor. 1 2. and as they are the matter of the Church Assembly they professe holinesse and godlinesse Rom. 1.7 But the Church of England doe not so assemble together as from a holy Call to a holy according together First called then exhorted to walke worthy of their holy Calling Ephes 4.1 and a holy according in Assembling of themselves together in holy fellowship is one thing pertaines to walking worthy the Call Ephes 4.3 1 Pet. 2.17 Heb. 12.23.24 But for that Assembly that gathers together after the Rudiments of the World and not after Christ is not the Church Assembly of Saints Collos 2.8 And that Assembly that gathers together without faith in according together in Jesus Christ after his Word Whether this be or not be is after the Rudiments of the World and therefore that Assembly which is one with the World in the worldly consideration of its Assembly of it is that from which God hath alwayes called and separated his people out of it unto himself Joh. 15.18 19. 2 Cor. 6.16 17 18. Act. 19.9 And for that where the holy Ordinances of God are injoyed is there where Christs presence is and that is where his are gathered together in his Name according to his Word Mat. 18.20 And Christ is said to walke in the mid'st of the seven Golden Candlesticks Revel 2.1 which Candlesticks are interpreted by Christ in the Revel 1.20 to be the Seven Churches and in his Church hee holds forth his Ministery and Ordinances Ephes 4.11 12. Ephes 3.10 But as in the former part of the book the Ministery of Christ that which is of his sending was considered either immediate of himself or mediately in his Church was not such In the Church of England neither there his Ordinances according to his Institution injoyed as in Reply unto Mr. Knuttons Answer unto the first and third Question in his book nor this Ordinance of Baptisme according to Christs Institution Ob. Because Jesus Christ leaves us 〈◊〉 for our defects and weaknesse Ans It is the great