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church_n	answer_n	doctrine_n	rome_n	2,731	5	6.4118	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82522	The defence of sundry positions & scriptures for the Congregational-way justified: or An answer to an epistle written by Mr. Richard Hollingworth, unto S.E. and T.T. wherein he (in many particulars) chargeth them with injurious dealing against God, and against himselfe, in that booke of theirs, called A defence of sundry positions, &c. Containing a vindication from such charges and aspersions so laid upon them. As also a briefe answer to his large (if not unreasonable) demands, to have scripturall, or rationall answ. given to his 112 queries. / By Sam: Eaton teacher Tim: Taylor pastor [brace] of [brace] the church at Duckenfield in Cheshire. Published according to order.	Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Taylor, Timothy, 1611 or 12-1681.	1646 (1646)	Wing E120; Thomason E346_4; ESTC R24943	33,505	50

yet we are complained of that we have not clearely manifested the Position as we have already shewed And how should this be done otherwise than by answering your Examination unlesse it be by new Arguments And what are Arguments worth if not backed with scriptures and yet when besides our answer to your examination we adde some short dissertation upon the Point this is counted as a By matter to your intent in the preface 2. Your intent as it appeares both in your Tytle Page the Preface and the Booke it selfe was not onely to vindicate the scriptures but to discover the supposed weaknesse of the doctrine contained in the Positions And why should not we as well assert the doctrine as vindicate the scriptures which some of them cull'd out by you are the weakest and most feeble parts of the proofe made by us as we have told you 3. You could wish you say We might keepe close to the Scriptures and Positions alleadged till they be one way or other cleared and then we may more orderly proceede to other scriptures and arguments and yet you that cannot endure any addition of scripture or reason applyed to the question stated more fully to our owne sense than they are in the Positions drawn up by you require us in the meane time to give scripturall and rationall answers to no lesse then an hundred and twelve Queres whereof some of them are Nihil ad Rhombum independants we are assured in the businesse of controversie betwixt us The fourth Charge that you make against us is That we doe not answer directly but obliquely and evadingly in sundry places as where say you I alledge that the Apostles never taught or practised to gather or separate one part of this true Church and and another part of that especially persons whom themselves converted not to make a purer Church You answer of another thing which was never denyed viz. The Apostles both taught and practised the separating of some Jewes from other Jewes and gathered them into a Christian Church while yet the Jewish Church was not dissolved but was a Church of God Answ We are so farre from answering obliquely or evadingly in this place that we dare be bold to say that no reply can more front and diametrically oppose such a confused answer as yours i● then this of ours doth We did observe that the supposed strength of your answer was couched in the four sinewes of it 1. We thought you deserted it as a thing dissonant to the doctrine and practise of the Apostles to gather some Christians from others to make a purer Church 2. We conceived that the truth of the Churches from which persons are gathered was that which you imagined made the gathering of them in such sort to beare no conformity with the Apostles doctrine or practise And we conceived there was this implication in it that it might be lawfull and suteable to the doctrine and practise of the Apostles to gather beleevers out of a false Church but not out of a true 3. We considered that this might have some strength in your thoughts that there is no such thing mentioned in the doctrine and practise of the Apostles as the gathering of one Church out of many 4. That you imagined that there was some strength in it to prove our gathering of Churches unlawfull because the persons gathered were such as we converted not Having thus anatomized in our thoughts your Answer we addressed our selves to discover the weaknesse and falliblenesse of all these Exceptions and we began with the second because it was most generall and so descended to the rest which were more particular And First we shewed that the truth of a Church is not that that can make it sinfull or unlawfull to gather or take in the members of it into the union of other Churches For then it should have beene unlawfull for the Primitive Churches to have gathered in the beleeving Jewes into their Churches whilest that Church remained true But this say we was the doctrine and practise of the Apostles Now what can be more point blanck opposite to this part of your answer then this Hence also our conclusion hath the strength of this argument in it If it be not unlawfull to withdraw from one Church that is true then it is not unlawfull to gather out of twenty or an hundred i. e. because they are true Object But say you this was not a Christian Church Answ We consider it not as Jewish but under the notion of truth as it was a true Church Object Nor are the Reformed Churches and Ministers to be compared with the then Jewish Church and Priests thereof Answ You shuffle in the Ministers of the one and the Priests of the other impertinently We have onely to doe with the Churches and we say the Christian Churches might be compared with the then Jewish Church under the notion we consider it in viz. in point of truth For the Jewish Church was a true Church as well as the Christian Churches Object It was but one say you and you should shew gathering out of severall Churches Answ Doe we not shew it thus If it be lawfull to gather out of one true Church then it is lawfull upon the same ground to gather out of many Object But say you the Apostles gathering was onely of those Jewes they converted to Christianity from unconverted Jewes and you should shew the gathering of Christians converted by others from other Christians Answ This also we have shewed at large clearing also the former objection together with it by severall arguments and two places of scripture viz. 1 Cor. 5 6. 2 Cor. 13 10. In our second third fourth fift and sixt particulars and these in opposition to the first and third particulars wherein we thought you placed the strength of your answer Object But you should shew the gathering of Christians converted by others from other Christians converted as well as they and possibly from those persons by whom they were converted Answ And this we have fully cleared pag. 10. from the practise of the Apostles and Primitive Christians None but an Emperick would censure a Physician that he doth not cure all diseafes with one Dosse Shall our reply be judged oblique evading insufficient because it is not a bush to stop every gap with though it be most punctually opposite to that part of your answer against which we levelled it Object But say you that Church was then by Gods Commandement to be dissolved and many Churches to be built upon its ruins and therefore doth no more warrant the building of one Christian Church upon the ruine of other Christian Churches than the Parliaments Commission if there were such a one to the Inhabitants of Derby hundred to take downe Lathamhouse to build them houses of doth warrant any one of the Inhabitants to take as many good stones as they can come by out of this and that and the other neighbours house concerning which

THE DEFENCE Of sundry POSITIONS SCRIPTURES FOR THE Congregational-way JUSTIFIED OR An Answer to an Epistle written by Mr. Richard Hollingworth unto S. E. and T. T. wherein he in many particulars chargeth them with injurious dealing against God and against himselfe in that Booke of theirs called A Defence of sundry Positions c. CONTAINING A Vindication from such Charges and aspersions so laid upon them As also a briefe Answer to his large if not unreasonable demands to have Scripturall or rationall Answ given to his 112. Queries By SAM EATON Teacher ●IM TAYLOR Pastor of the Church at Duckenfield in Cheshire Published according to Order LONDON Printed by Matthew Simmons for Henry Overton and are to be sold at his shop in Popes-head-Alley 1646. To the Seeker of Truth in Sincerity DIRECTIONS CHRISTIAN BROTHER that lookest hereon and art willing and desirous through Christ to search after and to receive the love of the Truth that thou mayest be saved and mayest further know and worship our God and Father in Christ acceptably in spirit and in truth to glorifie his Name before men wherein thou hast prophaned and polluted it as we have done by conforming with the times to the precepts and ●raditions of men Ponder with us for thy direction these particulars 1. That the Mystery of truth is not manifest to the World the generality but to the Saints who are dead to the World John 14. 22. 17. 6. Col. 1. 26. 2 20. 3 3 2. Hence this is found amongst them that are most full of love Gal. 5 6. John 13. 35. He that dwells or abides in that love abides in God and God in him 1 John 4. 16. 3. Hence it 's amongst them that to others so doe as they would be done unto Mat. 7. 12. And that whatsoever they would not should be done to themselves doe not it to others Act. 15 20. 29. Old Transl Margin v. 20. Regim v. 29. Complut Regius in Naturali Graec. vetust optimis aitinsig Selden D● Anno Civile c. 21. De Jure Gent. li 7. c. 12. 4. It 's amongst the pitifull That yee seeke to the fatherlesse and widowes in their affliction and keepe themselves unspotted from the world John 1 27. 5. This Wis●dome is not from below but from above and is first pure then peaceable gentle well-perswaded or rightly obedient full of mercy Jam. 3. 17. 6. It 's amongst such as living godly in Christ Jesus suffer persecution for his Names fake 2 Tim. 3. 12. John 15. 19 16 33. Mat. 5. 10 11. Now if thou hardly kn●west such Say to him whom thy soul loveth O tell mee where thou feedest where thou makest thy flocks lye down Cant. 1. 7. and he will give true wisedome to thee to dis●●rne of persons and things that d●ffer Yet expect not a Rose without a pricke or spot In many things we slip all If any slip not in word he is perfect Jam. 3. 2. Expect therefore to finde this amongst them that in their generall aime and course walke nearest according to that Rule Gal. 6. 16. And be a doer of the will of God as far as thou knowest John 7. 17. and mainly be taken up with the knowledge Grace and love of Jesus Christ that thy heart may be established therewith Heb. 13. 8 9. For our parts shame may cover our faces that we have walked after as men but henceforth our aime it so to walke as becometh the Gospel Cause it is of griefe to our soules that there should be Oppositions between our Brethren and us when the Canaanite i. depressing Merchants and the breach-making Perizite are in the Land Gen. 13. 7 8. The truth is after long seeking our God and oft discussing with our Brethren we peaceably set upon Reformation Practising what we were convinced was most agreeable to the Word of God Our Brother began against us Printing against this our practise Yet we forbore long till we saw that by our silence not onely we but Truth suffered then were we forced to print Our just Defence of sundry Positions And had he there staied we had now abode silent who by printing this may each of us seeme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unwise imprudent as Paul said oft of himselfe being forced so to write in his owne and the Truths Defence 2. Cor. 12. 11. 11. And truely had it been our persons onely that suffered though therein we share deeply by this Late Printed Epistle with certaine Queries being for an Answer to our Defence we had in this kinde held our peace although our Brother could not easily repaire our Damage But seeing Truth now suffers a second time by our so long forbearing we are againe enforced to this seeming folly or imprudence And by our viewing and pondering our Brothers angry bitter expressions if we in any passage seeme to any to have learned some of his wayes which we confesse we are subject unto Pro. 22. 25. Let our weakenesse remaine with us and not be charged on the Cause or Truth that we maintaine We are learning not to render evill for evill or railing for railing 1 Pet. 3. 9. and hope we shall more fully be taught of God therein Christian Reader If thou hast read our Brothers Epistle we intreat thee to have one eare for this our Answer thereto remembring what the wiseman said He that is first in his owne cause seemeth just but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him Prov. 18. 17. Consider what is said and the Lord give thee and us understanding in all things 2 Tim. ● 7. Amen THE DEFENCE OF Sundry Positions and Scriptures for the Congregational-way JUSTIFYED Reverend and beloved Brother YOu have saluted us with a querulous and Apologeticall Epistle a querulous in reference to us and Apologeticall in reference to your selfe And with an 112 Queries to all which you require us to give rationall and scripturall Answers We will first take your Epistle into consideration and afterwards debate what is meete to be said in reference to your Queries And first we will consider the justnesse of those charges that you lay upon us Secondly Whether you have acquitted your self from those charges you say are laid upon you The charges you make against us may be referred to seven Sect. 1 heads 1. That we unjustly charge you of provoking us to be your Antagonist in print pag. 3. 2. That there is a difference betwixt our Title page and the text pag. 8 9. 3. That our pretending to prove some positions practises by other scriptures and arguments as to your intent expressed in the preface is a by-matter pag 10. 4. That we doe not answer directly but obliquely and evadingly pag 10 11. 5. That we discover too much willingnesse to quarrell at your expressions pag 11. 6. That contrary to rule and reason when we should make good the proofe of the Position from the Text alledged we call to you to prove the contrary pag. 12 7. That

we curtall and clip your answers fold them up in obscure c. Omit that which we know to be more pertinent while we transcribe and largely answer some thing lesse pertinent pag. 13. To beginne with the first How doe you acquit your selfe from provoking us to be your Antagonists in print Did the Booke breake forth into the world against your consent Your selfe imply the contrary when you say others rather then your selfe thought fit the examination c. should be printed And what charge soever you gave concerning the prefixing of your name yet we could not be ignorant what by R H M A of Maygd Col. Cambr. meant Yet it was not your name which we love as we doe your person that could provoke us but the matter in the Booke which as it tended to the subversion of that Government which is in our apprehensions sutable to the golden rule of the word of God and the setting up of another governmēt which in the things in controversie we can see no other ground for save humane policy and prudence so called measured by the line of naturall reason so it reflected upon us in some particulars which falling from us in conference or writing you took up and committed your answer unto them to be made publique And for that cause when we saw no other of better abilities take up the businesse we thought we were bound to make our defence as publique But as Joseph in another case said to his Brethren Gen. 45. 5. Be not grieved that ye sold mee c so whether you provoked or whether we without cause were provoked yet if God as we hope he will make this a meanes to bolt out some truth of his so farre forth we shall rejoyce in it Your second charge is that there is a difference betwixt our Title page and the Text pag 7 8. for say you The Title speakes indefinitely that the Positions and Scriptures alledged not some or many of them by me examined are sufficient pertinent and full of power and are manifested yea clearely manifested so to be But in your text you disclaime the places applyed to Position 23 as it is by me controverted and are confident they are not found in the workes of any Congregationall man c. Answ 1. The title page was not that we sent up but was prefixed to our defence by a Friend to whose care we committed it to see to the printing of it our selves living at such distance And if lesse had beene given out in the Title it would not have derogated from the validity of the worke and would have liked us better Notwithstanding we doubt not but to maintaine the concordance betwixt the Text and it though not perhaps in every Punctilio Yet it must be understood that so farre as the Positions and scriptures are ours and truly and justly alledged by you as ours so farre we maintaine the sufficiency and pertinency of them And also so farre as Congregationall men have intended to make use of them in reference to their true and proper scope in alledging them they are full of power for they have produced and mentioned severall of them as probable and there is strength of probability though not of certainty even in those texts in which the infallibility of them is not asserted 2. The title that we sent up prefixed to our Booke you may behold it in the first page of our defence without variation and we suppose you will judge it modest enough 3. And whatsoever may be said for the rest yet sure we are in the instance you give there is no difference betwixt them For the Title page ingageth to a defence of sundry Positions and scriptures alledged to justifie the Congregationall way But Position 23 as it is by you controverted is a doctrine devised by your selfe and the scriptures fixed by your selfe to render us odious to all other Churches and all other Saints As for us we hate and detest the thought of confining the Priestly Propheticall and Kingly Offices of Christ to Churches meerely Congregationall Neither were these scriptures ever alledged by us or any of our judgement to our knowledge to any such purpose therefore without clashing with our Title page we might and ought to explode them 4. Forasmuch as your Title page runnes thus The examination of sundry scriptures alleadged by our Brethren in defence of some particulars of their way Either make it out that some Brethren of the Congregationall way have made use of these scriptures to this purpose or else there will be found not onely an imaginary but a reall clashing betwixt your title page and your text and you also will be found guilty the second time of a grievous reproach not onely against the Brethren but against the way it selfe For the second place viz. Position the 15 wherein say you After the allegation of some Authorities instead of answering a Text upon which the distinction of Pastors and Teachers is grounded You the one a Teacher and the other a Pastor conclude if we doe put a false glosse upon the scripture by misinterpreting of Eph. 4. 11. yet more modest language let any man finde immodesty in that examination if he can had become you Brother seeing such reverend and learned men whom your selfe honour have gone before us in this exposition Answ If we had only urged their authorities you might have charged us with not making out in this place what we pretend in our title Page but we urge and improve the reasons and so make them our owne reasons for the confutation of your answer First after we have shewed that whether you translate the prepositive article 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 some or these you gaine nothing by it we endeavour to prove that the Doctors are not Schoole-Doctors but Church Doctors from Rom. 12. 7 8. 1 Cor. 12. 8. and then proceed to prove that these Church Doctors are distinct from Church Pastors not onely by the authority of Zanchy but by the reasons rendred by Pareus and Bucer and specified by us viz. That God gives distinct gifts to Pastors from those that he gives to Teachers For to the one is given a speciall faculty of exhortation to the other a clearer understanding of doctrine and consequently they are distinct offices And yet you would make all men beleeve that in our Reply we defend not the Text at all Concerning our conclusion in which immodest language is charged upon you and your defence of your selfe Let any man finde immodesty in that examination if he can we say we conceive not our selves injurious in it at all For the immodest language though it be not in the examination of this Position yet we finde it in the first words of the preface which is applicable in your proper scope to all the positions and so consequently to this Position viz. True Positions and lawfull practises must not much lesse untrue and unlawfull be fathered upon God by misinterpretation of

be occasion we shall annexe And whereas you say this is but one example of many as we know none at all so if there be any of moment we perswade our selves we should have met with them under his charge for you spare not to give many instances of the same kinde when you apprehend it makes for your advantage 6. The sixth charge undertakes to prove that we have a saculty and make much use of it to turne the proofe over to you When I shew you say you where the proofe of the Position from the text alledged is defective and require you to supply that defect you then turne it over to me to prove the contrary as 1 Cor. 16. 1. When I say the Churches of Galatia might for ought you alledge to the contrary be combined one to another the substance of your answer is without proofe we connot grant it And that you may more plaufibly put the businesse off your selves you leave out the words for ought you alledge to the contrary Answ A little besore we were told that to prove some positions by other scriptures and arguments than those annexed to the Positions as to your intent in the preface was a by matter And it was wished that we might keepe close to those scriptures and positions till they were cleared but in this place though we answer your arguments and consequently make good the proofes annexed and when we have done tell you that without proofe we cannot grant such a Classicall Combination in Galatia as is in Scot●●n● and in Holland yet we are arraigned as departing from rule and reason because we turne the probative part over unto you Is not our part defensive onely of these Positions and scriptures And if we deliver the scriptures of the doctrine contained in the Positions any thing in your examinations contained notwithstanding we doe Sportamquam nacti sumus ornare Performe what we have undertaken And though when we doe more if solidly and truely your selfe and all the lovers of truth are so much the more our debtors yet if we doe thus much onely you have no cause to ensure us 2. As for you Forasmuch as you afford such hard quarter to the Positions as to make them by interpretation a helping of God counterfeiting of the King of Kings hand and an addition to his word since he that makes a charge must prove it we thought you were bound these arguments in your examination failing either to make out your charge by other arguments or at least confesse that you have wronged the Authors of such Positions and the truth it selfe and therefore we put you upon proofe 3. As we put nothing off our selves that belonged to us so we never left out those words for ought you alledge to the contrary for any such end as you suggest But for brevity sake and because we thought there was nothing materiall to the businesse in hand either for your advantage or our disadvantage contained in them For though if you understand it in a sense nothing to the purpose viz. The Churches of Galatia might be combined for ought we alledge to the contrary meaning God could have combined them so he could have made Rome Paris or Madrid the place of an Oecumenicall Congregation for worship and government It is true yet if you meane the Churches of Galatia might be combined for ought we alledge to the contrary meaning there is nothing in the proofe made in the Position that inferres the non combination of the Churches of Galatia we say it is your oversight to assert it And we turne not over the proofe to you but having confuted the supposed proofe to the contrary vve send you to seeke new arguments or yeeld us the cause 7. The last charge is of a great wrong to your selfe and the truth of God as you say viz. That we curtall and clip your answers and arguments not onely the supplement but the substance and strength of them folding them up in obscure c. sometimes omitting them with a Censure You aske us a little after Do● you not omit that which you know to be pertinent while you transcribe and largely answer something lesse pertinent Answ What may be done through oversight vve knovv not but vve have omitted nothing pertinent of purpofe or advisedly D●lus late● in generalibus your ●en generall charges we cannot but take to be great injuries and the issues of a spirit of de●raction since you would beare the world in hand that they are so many that they would too much enlarge this Epistle augmenting it in sundry pages If you had spared your Queries at this time and left roome for the discovery of these supposed unc●ndide passages you had done your selfe no lesse right and us much lesse wrong And if you had but barely cited the pages and lines where such passages are found would this have swell'd up your Epistle to many pages more But let us consider the instance you give and leave the Reader to guesse at the rest for it s more then probable you would single out the grossest you could finde And first concerning the omitting of the seven particulars in position 24. Which you plainely affirme we left out least the Reader had we subscribed them should have expected a● answer We rendred another reason which we have the cleare testimony of our consciences for was the true reason why we left them out and that which you obtend no reason at all yet as though you did communicate with God in his incommunicable excellency of being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the searcher of the heart you affirme that theresore we left them out least the Reader had we transcribed them should have expected an answer We say againe if we give you for granted those seven particulars or rather seven generall heads including in them many particulars improve you them ●o the best advantage of your Presbyterian cause in opposition to the doctrine included in the 24 position For those particulars how many soever they be are no parts of the discipline left by Christ to the Church which the position saith in the essentials of it is unchangeable and therefore the position may be defended though those particulars be granted And for this cause we shall desire to be excused with you and nothing feare incurring prejudice with the Reader though we did not transcribe your seven tedious impertinencies to the cause in hand 2. We say further in that we transcribed them not we rather spared you then advantaged our selves for there is something in all of them that is either doubtfull or justly liable to exceptions For you undertaking to shew the differences betweene the Apostolicke Churches and ours say 1. The Jewish Ceremonies were then scarce dead at least not buried hence we are not bound to circumcise We answer This Legall right of Circumcision was never on foot among the Apostolick gentile Churches nor were they bound any more to it then we are now therefore

there i● no difference in that betwixt us and the primitive Apostolicke gentile Churches 2. The civill custome of those Countries differ much from ours hence we are not bound to make the covering of a mans head a token of dishonour 1 Cor. 11. 4 5. 7. 10. Answer What ever it be that the Apostle meaneth by covering of the head for that is disputable it seemeth to us to be perpetuall and binding to all Churches as well as to that of Corinth because of the Apostles reasons in 1 Cor. 11. 7. 14. He saith ver 7. The man ought not to cover the head because he is the Image and glory of God but the woman must because she is the glory of the man And ver 14. he saith Nature it selfe teacheth that if a man have long haire it is a shame to him because haire is not given to him for a covering For so it is to be understood to make the Antithesis perfect But if a woman have long haire it is an honour to her because her h●ire is given her for a covering We think the reason is fetcht from the excellency of the one sexe above the other and that reason which is drawne from nature are perpetuall And if ever in force remaine still in force 3. The Church was then but in gathering from amongst Heathens and Jewes bence we want examples to convince refractory Anabaptists of the baptizing of Christian Infants c. Answ Such an argument as this you use to defend your selves in pleading for an Nationall Church Scripture say you mentioneth not a Nationall Church for beleevers were not so many then as to beare the name of a Kingdome or Nation As we conceived it weake against us so may the Anabaptists judge it unsatisfactory against them For can any one rationally thinke but that among those many thousands converted of Jewes and Heathens and gathered into Christian Churches there were not many who had Infant Children some of them borne before they were converted who upon such conversion of their parents were to be accounted Christian Infants and others borne after such conversion in that period of time which the history of the Acts of the Apostles fills up which Infants must also be stiled Christian Infants And if so then the reason of wanting examples of baptizing Christian Infants is not that which you alledge viz. because the Church was then but in gathering from amongst the Heathens and Jewes But because it seemed good to the Holy Ghost for what cause we dare not determine to forbeare the expresse mentioning of Infants baptisme 4. The Church was then under heathenish persecuting Magistrates hence they had no houses built for or appropriated to holy worship Answ In your Examinations pag. 6. you cite 1. Cor. 11. 22. and say To come together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is if rightly translated to come together in one place and ●o Ecclesia is opposed to the buildings or houses in which they did eate and drinke in Here you say That the primitive Churches had not houses c. Doe you not manifestly contradict your selfe for if they were not houses in which they did eate and drinke in but did meete together in for holy worship were they not so farre forth set a part for holy worship If by appropriation of houses to holy worship which you say was not then in the primitive times but ought to be now you meane such a setting a part as must necessarily exclude all using of such houses to other purposes it is superstition so to conceive or speake But if you grant that ●se may be made of them otherwise then in Gods worship How are they then appropriated to Gods worship more now then in the times of primitive Churches For they were then knowne noted places at least among some Churches and capacious of great multitudes in which the Churches did ordinarily meete as from 1 Cor. 14. 23. appeares They meete in the night to pray preach and celebrate the Supper Ans And did they not meet in the day also How else did 1 Cor. 14. 23 the unbeleevers meet with them come among them Ministers had no setled maintenance Answ It is a non sequitur that because the Church was under Heathenish and persecuting Magistrates therefore Ministers had no setled maintenance Is there any rule for setled maintenance in the whole Gospell which yet being that there are predictions many of peaceable and prosperous times to the Church there might have beene if God had meant any such thing Nay there are intimations if not cleare declarations against setled maintenance to arise from the Churches There was then an extraordinary effussion of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles Evangelists and sundry of the Elders and people hence there was no neede of Universities c. Answ Yes there was neede because you speake but of sundry and the Apostle desired that they all might speake with tongues but rather that they might prophesie 1 Cor. 14. 5. therefore there might be use of schooles in reference to them that wanted extraordinary gifts Nor of studying for Sermons Answ Yes Else what meaneth the Apostle when he bids Timothy stirre up the gift c. and give attendance to reading c. No using set Prayers and Psalmes Answ Were there no set Psalmes in those dayes were those Psalmes Hymmes and spirituall songs which the Church at Ephesus and at Colosse and all the Churches did sing inspired by the spirit And were no scripture Psalmes sung in those times That will be a strengthening to them that doubt of the singing of Davids Psalmes As for prayers is there a necessity now of a Forme because extraordinary gifts are ceased May not an ordinary gift be sufficiently helpfull to put up prayers by We would thinke it should now be unseasonable to plead for set formes of prayer 6. The Apostles had the care of all the Churches and without difference taught and baptized and ordered matters in all Churches where they came now we may not expect such Officers but must be content with ordinary Elders amongst whom so much of their power as God intended to be perpetuall ●s divided Answ But if there be an universall visible governing Church which you plead for the Elders of it must have care of all the Churches and must Preach Baptize and rule where ever they come And the representative oecumenicall Church or Counsell consists of such Elders that every of them must have care of all the Churches Where then is the difference according to your principles betwixt the Apostles and such Elders in that matter And whether the Brethren do not share in some of their power you know is under controversie 7. There were then some extraordinary occasionall precepts and practises which binde not in ordinary as selling all to give to the poore Mat. 19. 21. having all things common Act. 2. 44 45. 4. 32. 3● 35. Answ Selling all and giving to the poore was never a precept nor

also you would have the Reader to understand that the chiefe part of your answer viz. It is not said they gave themselves to the Church or Churches but to us viz. Paul a●● Timothy is left without the least limit or intimation Answ Are not these words to be found in our defence pag. 44. The argument is fetcht a Comparatis the members of the Churches of Macedonia did as much in a like case they gave themselves to the Lord and to the Apostle and Timothy according to Gods will to be guided by the Lord and directed by them a whole Church or Churches to one or two persons gave themselves And an argument is fetcht thence thus then may one person that is to joyne to a Church as fitly give himselfe to the Lord to be guided by him and to the whole Church and Officers thereof to be directed by them according to the will of God Doe not we grant that it is not said that they gave themselves to the Church or Churches but to us viz. Paul and Timothy Nor doth the Position imply any other thing For it saith As the members of the Church of Macedonia did in a paralell or like case It speakes onely of something done proportionably to that which they presse where then is the injury done to you Is it in this that without mentioning your allegation as your allegation we have yet answered the whole strength of it Forgive us this wrong and retract your charge which though it have truth in it in the letter of your words in which it runs yet it wants truth in your scope in which you make it For you complaine of wrong to you and the truth of God but causelesly and most injuriously as from what is presented is manifest The fourth instance is out of Position 22 where you say Your whole answer to Revel 4. 4. is by an Index expurgatorius blotted out Answ We have sought up our papers and we perceive that in the copying out of the Reply for the presse the answer to this text was omitted Casu an Consilio we cannot say The answer was to this effect it hath been usually the practise of men of the most approved parts and unquestioned integrity after they have solidly proved a place by plaine texts of scipture then to adde as probable those which in their judgement lookt that way though more obscure as typicall and propheticall places The same is that practise of the Elders of New England in urging this place So that if you could make it out that the Elders have mist the genuine sense of the place yet you have but knockt off one of the Emblemata of the garnishings of the roome whereas the Position it selfe remaines unshaken by you 2. We doe professe our selves unwilling to defend the position by vertue of the text at least in that expression viz. of authority and governing power yet it may be those reverend learned and religious Authors are able to maintaine it though we by reason of our weakenesse dare not undertake it 3. As for the exposition that you put upon it though it be consonant to the interpretation of some learned writers and though it seemed probable to one of us yet upon further inexpectation though we absolutely reject it we have not yet these exceptions against it 1. We reade not of any eyes that the 24 Elders had but the four beasts were full of eyes Rev. 4. 8. Is this the meaning of it that the Churches in the foure Quarters of the world had eyes that is wisdome knowledge understanding to manage order guide and dispose of the affaires of the Churches But the Officers wanted eyes and so were excluded from directive power For this will follow upon your exposition at least if your argument against the interpretation which the Elders of New England give of Crownes prove solid You say by their exposition The Elders which are signified by the foure beasts are excluded from governing power for they sit not on Thrones nor have Crownes on their heads And we will say against you the Elders which you would have to be the Elders of the Churches are excluded from directive power for they have not eyes before and behinde as the four beasts have 2. We reade that the four beasts doe lead the four and twenty Elders in the worship and Service of God in the Church Revel 4. 9 10. When those Beasts gave honour and glory c. the four and twenty Elders fell downe and worshipped c. So also c. 5. 8. 11. 14. Now whether the Churches doe lead their Officers in all their worships they performe to God which will follow from your exposition or the Officers doe lead the Churches judge you 3. We see no absurdity in Masters Cottons and New-Englands brethrens exposition who make the four beasts to be the Officers of the Churches and the four and twenty Elders to be the members As for your allegation of Revel 7. 9. 11. 13 14. where you say That the Elders are distinguished from beleevers We answer to it We discerne not that the Elders are any more distinguished then the four beasts are which yet you interpret to be the Beleevers of the four parts of the world let the place be viewed 4. Though Master Cotton drive that by Crownes are Ensignes of authority any more then white rayment was an Ensigne of Priesthood yet he asserts that in some particulars that belongs to Church members which is the Priviledge of Kings that weare Crownes As 1. That they transact nothing by themselves but by their Officers 2. Their consent Cott. Case is requifite to the judgements that passe in the Church And therefore it may seeme lesse strange if they appeare with Crownes Having thus answered that part of your Epistle wherein you lay divers charges upon us we shall now more briefly answer the former part of your Epistle wherein you endeavour to purge your selfe from those charges laid upon you And you say The deepe and heavy charge as you call it in the first part of my preface against misinterpretation of scriptures as a belying of God counterfeiting the King of Kings hand though I now see how I have sped I re 〈…〉 t not of Answ Neither appeares it that you doe repent that you Psal 35. 11. have position 23 laid to our charge things that we knew not yea things that when we heard of them were of detestable consideration in our thoughts If you shall solidly confute our reply we shall justifie you in this impenitency but if otherwise we shall desire to mourne in secret for you and pray that God would give it an impression upon your spirit You have the more cause to repent if that be true which you alledge in the portall of your Epistle viz. that the Examination c. was for the most part an answer to some allegations as they were privately made to you for satisfaction For doe doubting brethren wanting light addresse