Selected quad for the lemma: church_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
church_n	answer_n	doctrine_n	rome_n	2,731	5	6.4118	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A81551	A dispute betwixt an atheist and a Christian the atheist being a Flemming, the Christian an Englishman. Published according to order.	G. G.	1646 (1646)	Wing D1678; Thomason E1187_3; ESTC R15204	24,048	59

A DISPUTE BETWIXT AN ATHEIST AND A CHRISTIAN THE ATHEIST being a Flemming The CHRISTIAN an Englishman Published according to Order London Printed 1646. TO THE READER THe subject being the heighth of Gods workmanship might boldly claim entertainment from the clearest speculation were it here answerably figurated and though my deare affection to my Countreymen perswades me to run the hazard of their censures rather then omit an opportunity to tell them their errours yet that could not perswade its young limbs to expose it selfe to the Presse but a friend discovering such papers by me told me with or against my wil he would publish them seeing no remedy I thought to excuse it in its imperfections it being but in its naturall colour writ and conceived in as short a time as such a Discourse could well be uttered yet if there be a mistake t is but in a name not in the dependence on it But this apologie is to the civill interpreter and not to such Pragmaticks as shall read it to take occasion to shew their little wits in abusing it and the Author But if its good fortune carry it into the hands of a favourable constructor to him I shall reckon my self obliged in the condition of an humble servant G.G. P. 5. l. 22. here r. there p. 8. l 18. herefore r. therefore p. 9. l. 12. is r. in p. 9. l. last Menews r. Menarcs p. 24. l. 18. futra r. foutra p. 28. l. 1. ten r. 5. p. 31. l. 10. Capland r. Lapland p. 33. l. 3. Aukia r. Aulia p. 37. l 5. celerines r. selicities p. 41. l. 18. Ely r. Elroy p. 42. l. 5. puffed r. parted l. 16. Motes r. Moses l. 18. Rabines r. Rabbins Errata Pag. 1. line 13. for you r. yours p. 3. l. 1. for and r. or p. 9. l 12. there is r. in p. 21. l. 6. creatures r. Cheators p. 14. l. 2. of masters r. Mistresses p. 31. l. 18. of Marsela r. Messina p 37. l. 5. signe r. fire and l. 9. our r. on p. 38. l. 6. for the r. their p. 40. l. 16. as heares r. asures p. 45. l 18. We r. so p. 49. l. 2. of have r. leave p. 50. l. 3. of vain r. various p. 50. l. 10. of proportion l. appurtenance A DISPUTE betwixt an Atheist and a Christian The Atheist being a Flemming the Christian an Englishman Christian BEing in company at an Ordinary with one whom by his discourse I gathered to be some Ethnick or Atheist I could not but require from him his faith and the title of his Religion a And notwithstanding the unusualnesse of that custome I with some Ceremony for my boldnesse intreated him to permit me a question Atheist Any that you will ask and is in my power to resolve shall be answered C. Then let mee intreat you to satisfie mee in the principles of your Faith and Tenents in your Religion A. That shall I with all my heart though likely not agreeable unto you C. I pray let me heare them and though they are not mine they may be made so by such reasons as are beyond my answer For indeed I look on my Tenents as well with the eye of Reason as of Faith A. Then I will with the more willingness impart unto you my Creed which I conceive to be grounded on naturall Phylosophy C. I shall be glad to hear what they are and the rather because you will mayntain them by naturall Phylosophy which I conceive to signifie true substantial reason For I have no artificial to answer by A. Truly I have spent the greatest part of my time amongst the learned and in perticular among those men accounted the wisest of England of which Country I conceive you to be and doe find a correspondency in them with me in the most of my tenents which I can summe up into this for your answer that I doe believe in an universall Providence that governs the things aswell of the greater as of this inferiour Globe and of the Souls eternity and after this life in a place of unspeakable felicity And indeed I am not affraid of the gnashing ing of the teeth which is spoken shall happen to the bad after this life in the old law nor yet of the trouble of the conscience which in the new Law is supposed shall be to those of the same damnable condition And indeed I rather thinke Moses to be inspired with a wit above the rest of the Egyptians bond men then with a spirit C. Marry I am sorry to see a man of so much gravity as you are and a pretender to so much learning to have so little true knowledge But in truth I rather pitty then am enraged at the opinion you have of the Father alone not of the Christian Jewish and Mahumetan Religion For as the old Law was the foundation of the new so is the new the Quarry from whence all Christians take the Materiall that build their severall Tabernacles and also all the Mahumetan Sects draw from both new old so that the old being the foundation of the new it must follow that Moses was the ground of them both And so the Jews to this day adore him as the only instrument under God of all their temporal and spirituall comforts And do you think that amongst so many severall Nations as are Professors in the one or the other of them there is scarcely a Prince or people to be found but looks for his souls comfort which you confesse to be to Eternity but by Moses Christ or Mahumet that there should not be found men of as searching an understanding as you and some such pretenders to knowledge as you are Yes be confident that the very antiquities of these beliefs are if there were nothing else sufficient to prove the truth of them and the divine power of Moses whom you will have onely wise in a naturall way and not in a divine then there rest of the Princes of Israel A. The Principall thing that you seeme to maintaine your beliefe in Moses withall is the number Believers in him and the long continuance of the same In answer to that I say that that Plea wil hold nothing For wee will make it the case that is now betwixt the Church of Rome and the Church of England For the Church of Rome being ancienter then the Church of England why then are you not of it if you will go for long received opinions C. First for the Church of Rome If that were of greatest Antiquity it might work much on me But Christ saith If an Angell from heaven should teach you any Doctrine but that which is written in Scripture believe him not and we have not the opinion of the Bishop of Rome as wee have of an Angell And therefore if we are commanded not to believe an Angell we ought not to credit a man For wee have the Scriptures among us and as learned and wise men both for temporall

and spirituall wisdome as the Bishop and Cardinals of Rome are And the Scripture being of more Antiquity then the Romish Religion from whence he pretends to take it the Church of England being grounded on that and not on mans imaginations as the Church of Rome in what it differs from ours is the more ancient Church And it is authentically proved by severall Authors of our Nation when and at what time the Tenets of the Church of Rome which differ from the Church of England were brought into it and by what Councell most of them being within nine hundered yeares But we confesse there was a Church in Rome before there was one in England Rome to be the place from whence the Faith was generally established in England But sence the corruption that was drawn in for the advantage of the Romish Church hath altered it from the purenesse of it at its converting ours to the Faith which was the cause that we fell from it to the state we now are in which is the same with its first institution A. Well then let that passe But for multitude there is a greater number of Mahumetans then of your profession and therefore according to that Argument you should fall to that beliefe C. I say no For the Scripture sayth We must not follow a multitude to do evill A. Why we agreed on confuting or proving by reason the truth of the Scripture Therefore I le barr that as a Plea But answer mee to the Argument with your reason C Well then I say that there is as great a multitude of Christians as of Mahumetans for although most part of Asia be Mahumetans yet almost all Europe except some few in Greece and Hungaria are Christians And for Africa the Kingdomes of Prety Janni with the Territorie of the Spaniards and Portugueses here and converts of America may compare with the remainder Mahumetans A. Well but for the antiquity of your Religion what can be said but that if you would plead for that and because that great and mighty Princes have received the Faith and lived and dyed in it you say that is the signe of the truth of it C. I say one signe A. Well I shall answer that one and your other after and first for this Whereas you say that it is a signe it is the truth in regard of the long continuance of the opinion of Moses inspiration with a divine and heavenly spirit and so consequently of the Law he writ and of the truth of it I answer That look on the people of America and those of Japan and all the people of the South Sea and you shall find they will tell you that their Faith hath endured ever since the World was no History being able to contradict but the Scripture doth speak of Baals Priests that launced their flesh and cryed out Baal heare us and of the Heathens that lived about the children of Israel which made their children to passe through the fire to the God Moloch and many such like customes are spoken of there to be used among the Heathen which at this day are used amongst those of America and the other places abovesaid which proves the Antiquity of their Customs and therefore should they be followed No an anciēt custom is nothing to prove the truth or cōveniency of a thing but rather the weaknesse of those that live so long in sottish ignorance C. You speake now of a company of barbarous simple people A. To you they may seeme so but not to themselves nor to some others and they have greater reason to condemn Christians for barbarousnesse then we to condemne them For the acts of the Spaniards have been so inhumane with them they have overcome that it is certainly known there have been 1100000 of harmlesse Indians in America cruelly butchered without cause or offence given by them as their own writers report But as the Persians seemed to the Grecians to be barbarous so the Grecians seemed no lesse barbarous to them and as all fools think wise men to be so or else they would learn of them to be wise so all wise men think fools to be so by their foolish acts and who shall judge this controversie neither party but the stander by And if it be so why then shall we not take the opinion of the ancient Philosophers as of Diogenes and others that lived that course of life that they took not care for to morrow which is the custom amongst them and for a civill kinde of humane curtesie they equalled them in all passages being as is reported by the first discoverers the most gentle and courteous people living And indeed my opinion tels me that the Irish men in their Rugge and trouses which is their constant weare are not so barbarous as the French who alter their habit oftner then a Cameleon doth her colour But goe into China a place generally accounted to have as subtile in habitants and as great multitudes of them as are in any petticular Dominion of the World their Chronicles informing them their Religion is as ancient as the creation of the world and that they record to be of above 6000. years continuance counting the yeare as we doe and they have as good oportunities for their knowledge of the truth as we for they say Printing is as ancient with them as History with us Therefore if you will be of a Religion or an opinion because the wise are of the same the learned are of the same a multitude are of the same and the Ancients were of the same then you may be of the Religion or opinion of the Chinians and according to your own rule In England the more Southeasterly you goe the wiser the people are as the French are wiser then the English the Italians wiser then the French and the Grecians wiser then them then consequently it must follow the people of Turkie and of Persia and the Mogores Countrey men to be wiser then the wisest of Europe and the people of China lying most Sontheastesly without you will come home again by America to be the wisest of the World and therefore to bee followed in custome and Religion C. Although I doe not so much stand on the Antiquity of the Religion I professe as I doe on the reasons that I can give to prove the verity of it yet dare I maintain its antiquity maugre all opposition For the story of China to passe over that of America I say I conceive that the Religion there according as it is reported is the simplest Religion in the World their supposed gods being always in their houses made of wood or clouts to which they worship and doe reverence which is contrary to ours for we worship him that made us and they worship that which they have made and were they so wise as the report goeth of them they are I cannot thinke they would doe such ridiculous things therefore the report of their wisdom seems as strange