should place the Emperor by himself in respect of his temporalities he should grant two beginnings which were Heresie In good Faith Sir I cannot think otherwise but if these men say true your Catholic Princes let them keep as fair as they will with the Pope are all Heretics in their hearts And then what follows Hark what a Cardinal and which I grieve an English man hath publisht to the World Card. Allen against the execution of justice p. 87. The Cannon Laws says he being authentical in the lawful Tribunals of the Christian World do make all Heretics not only after they be namely and particularly denounced but by the Law it self ipso facto as soon as they be Heretics are de jure excommunicated for the same to be depriv'd of their Dominions Philopater p. 154. Another tells us The whole School of Divines and Canonists do hold and that 't is certain and of Faith that any Christian Prince whatsoever if he shall manifestly deflect from the Catholic Religion and endeavour to draw others from the same does presently fall from all power and dignity by the very force of human and divine Law and that also before any Sentence of the supreme Pastor or Judge denounced against him and that his Subjects whatsoever are free from all Obligation of that Oath which they had taken for their Allegeance to him as their lawful Prince and that they may and ought if they have forces drive out such a man as an Apostate or Heretic and a Backslider from the Lord and Christ and an enemy to the Commonwealth from all Dominion over Christians lest he infect others or by his example or command avert others from the faith and that this certain definite and undoubted opinion of the best learned men is wholly agreeable and consonant to the Apostolical doctrine Upon these grounds it was publickly maintain'd that Henry the third of France was lawfully murthered before any sentence of excommunication past against him because though in hidden crimes formalities be requir'd yet evidens notitia facti sententiae locum tenet non percipit formam publicus dolor And that he had long liv'd as an excommunicate person de facto de justa abdic Hen. 3. l 4. c. 2 though the law had not past sentence upon him for favouring Heretics for Simony for entring into league with Hereticks the Queen of England and King of Navar for seizing the goods of the Church without the Popes privity and other offences against the Bulla Caenae Upon these grounds I have seen that execrable Villain Chastel who attempted upon Henry the Fourth what Ravillac after performed defended by a public Apology and I see no attempt can be so barbarous and inhumane which may not be defended by them So that by your favour your Catholic Princes are not secure Quiet they may be but never safe and for their quietness they may thank the lucky conjuncture of those stars which have influence upon the times of their government and restrain the malignity of these Doctrines Otherwise if they be not very cunning in school subtilties they may chance forfeit their Kingdoms and all their power per triccum de lege without ever knowing when or how live all their life time in the erroneous belief that they are very Kings and those who obey them their very Subjects and be deceiv'd all the while But be it as it will this answer which would justifie the innocence of these doctrines by the security of Catholic Princes comes pitifully off when instead of securing it takes them quite away which is a fine kind of security for it is plainly a much easier task to maintain by these doctrines that there is never a true Prince in the Christian world no not in those whom you call Catholics than it is to maintain the doctrines And yet when all is done 't is nothing to purpose neither For our Prince and People are of the number of those whom your Church takes for Heretics and can expect no other treatment from you than what you maintain belongs to Heresie Wherefore however your Catholic Princes satisfie themselves I neither see how he can be satisfied of the fidelity of such of his Subjects as approve of these opinions nor with what face they can pretend security and protection from him Pray think of this while I pass to what I put for a second answer and what I have sometimes heard alledged These opinions will you say are moot-cases probably disputed amongst private men in which the Church is neither engaged nor concerned Pray God this Church be not as slippery a word as either Heresie or Popery These men who thus magnifie the Pope certainly are not of our Church and I believe Presbyterians and Fanaticks of all sorts will disown them too so that even for pitty and not to make Infidels of them you must needs take them into yours But they who speak so kindly of the Pope need not fear disowning We see they are both acknowledged and esteemed and are all Capita alta ferentes Now 't is strange your Church should be unconcern'd in men whom you account Orthodox and learned and whose books come out with the approbation of those whom your Church commissionates for that purpose Me-things the Act of her Officers acting by her Authority should be taken for the Act of the Church Unless you will have the Pope pass for one of those careless Princes who deserve to be deposed for negligence and be ignorant that his Officers abuse their trust and licence unsound doctrines and this at Rome it self where a body would think sufficient care is taken that nothing pass which is not esteemed Orthodox Bring me a Book printed at Rome wherein the contrary doctrine is maintain'd and I will acknowledge there is some sense in this answer In the mean time let me give you a few instances and those at home by which it may appear the Pope is so far from ignorant and unconcern'd in these positions that he approves and countenances them and that both â—hotly and constantly In the reign of King James upon the occasion of the execrable Powder Treason the Oath of Allegeance was enacted by the pious wisdom of the Parliament to secure his Majesty and Successors from the like attempts for the future The Superior of the Catholic Clergy at that time was one Blackwell He after much and long debate of the matter with his fellow Priests at last resolved the Oath according to the plain and common sense of the words might with a safe conscience be taken by the Catholics and afterwards both took it himself and by his admonitions to Clergy and Laity recommended it to them as a thing both lawful and fitting The greatest part of the Clergy who repair'd to London upon that occasion followed the resolution of their Superior and had the Pope been either a little more ignorant or a little more negligent I think it had been better for you
and men of several qualities The same person is both a man and a Rich and Proud man a Powerful and an Angry man and we see Wit and Ambition Goodness and Ignorance Learning and Fantasticalness often coupled together and a hundred several mixtures of several qualities united all in one material Man Now consider what fine work there would quickly be if every one of these useless formalities as you call them must be chargeable with all actions if Riches must be taken away because the Rich Proud man has scorn'd and Power because the Powerful Angry man has wronged his Neighbour if Wit must bear the blame of Ambition and Goodnesâ— the miscarriages of Ignorance and Learning the Errors of Fantasticalness Reason is our very Nature and yet I think there are few to whom Nature has not given Logick enough to see that we do not always act as reasonable and who are not learned enough to separate the Animal from the Man To speak yet plainer a severe Father a harsh Master do they not sometimes use their Children and Scholars unreasonably and so as utterly to spoil them A corrupt Judge does he not pervert Justice and render those Tribunals from whence men expect the relief of Injuries the seats of Oppression What then Must the Father and the Master and the Judge be condemned for the faults of the Man and none of these powers left in the world because they have been and daily are abused I think you and every body will confess that this were unreasonable and yet your Argument spares none of them For 't is all one to Children and Pleaders if they be materially opprest and misus'd whether this be done by the fault of the Office or the Officer and small comfort it is to tell them that their Judges and Masters acted in their case as passionate men not as Judges and Masters for they remain opprest still and the formality relieves them not Kings themselves are men too and not exempt from the failings of Mortality Our Country indeed has this amongst other things to thank God for that she has been extraordinarily blest with good Kings but History affords examples of such elsewhere as have been unjust and cruel and tyrannical And if you will not allow the King and his sacred Function to be free from the aspersions to which the Man is sometimes liable let me tell you Friend your Doctrine will be more dangerous and more inconsistent with Government than the Papal pretensions Now as in all these cases and a hundred more which happen every day and every where Nature teaches us to examine the formality from whence the mischief proceeds and endeavour to provide against that and let the rest alone so I think it ought to be in the case of the Church We condemn not Learning because some learned men are fantastical nor Riches for the pride of rich men why must the Church be condemned for the fault of Church-men Authority and Goodness and Wit are not blemisht by the errors of those who have them the Power of Fathers and Masters and Judges is and must be preserved in the world however Severity and Covetise daily abuse it and if this be so in all the rest of the world can you think it reasonable the Church alone should be exempted from the general rule and be more answerable for the faults of those who live in her communion than Authority for the faults of bad men in Authority The faults indeed should be taken away but the Church let alone And truly had your Reformation as you call it gone no farther than to retrench abuses such as these you mention and who knows but there may be other I might peradventure have call'd it so too But instead of abuses to take away Office and all and defie the supreme Pastor of the Church and alter the whole face of Religion there by your favour you reformed a little too far For the same Logic which makes the Church responsible for the errors of Church-men makes the Office responsible for the faults of the Officer and that is to take all Offices out of the world where men will be men and liable to be reduced from the path of vertue in spight of all preventions possible in such a nature as ours I hope by this time that distinction does not appear so airy and useless as you imagined you shall permit me to add that possibly you are no less concern'd in it than We. For we are not the only men amongst whom Principles inconsistent with Government may be found Remember who they were that ruin'd England by the late War and were guilty of things which to dilate were as unsavoury as needless They were so far from Popery these men that fear of Popery was a chief Engine employed in the mischief Sad fate by the way and preposterous wisdom to destroy our selves for fear of being destroyed and run into Fire and the Sword for fear of Ink and Paper Neither is England the only example Scotland and the Netherlands and Germany and France have felt lamentable effects from the Doctrines of men who would take it for an imputation to have learnt any thing of the Pope So that it is very plain that the Papal is neither the only nor the only dangerous King-deposing power in the world 'T is as plain that these men are neither Infidels nor of our Church so that you must even exercise your Pity too and take them into yours Or if pity will not prevail I hope at least you will take care so to defend your Allegiance a not to overthrow your Church And unless you make your Creed consist but of Eleven Articles I see not how you can disown the Communion of these men for 't will be a strange Catholic Church which communicates neither with the Church of Rome nor her Adversaries Wherefore if your Argument be good and Religion must answer for the faults of those who profess it there is no remedy but Princes to be secure must banish all Religion and People turn Atheists to be honest men and good Subjects Now whatever answer you would give to one who should charge such wicked principles upon your Church because they are maintained by numerous and learned and famous men amongst you the same I give for mine I believe for all your Pique to formalities you would go near to distinguish your Church or Believing men from the Erring men and say you communicate with the Men but not with the Errors So you shall permit me to say for mine and this farther that whatever you say you must of necessity either condemn your selves or absolve us 'T is not that the force of your Argument drives me to that way of answer which I have chosen it being easie to shew the Churches innocence even in your own way and without the help of your disliked formalities Your Argument in short is this Learned men in the Church hold wicked Doctrines therefore the Church
should be Catholick enough sure and never boggle at any thing should be offer'd me But to leave Jeasting let me tell you though I know not how you will relish the Complement you write so well that you must needs write again I may possibly hereafter give you more trouble upon this Subject when these fluttering Fancies of mine are setled into a steady Judgement I know not how satisfactory your Answer may prove when I have fully examin'd it If it do not I reserve my self the liberty to tell you so and in the mean time conceive you could not chuse a more useful Argument then this of the Popes power He was a man famous for wisdom who E. Salisbury Treatise of mitigation p. 20. as I find cited in one of your own Authors was long troubled that some clear explication of the Papal Authority had not hitherto been made by some publick or definitive Sentente and this both that those Princes who acknowledge it may be secure from the fear and suspicions of continual Treasons and Attempts of Assasins and those Princes who do not acknowledge it and yet desire to think favourably of their Subjects may certainly know how far they may rely upon their fidelity in temporal matters who differ from them in what concerns their Conscience Consider besides what confusion what Wars and Bloodshed we find in History upon the contests betwixt the Spiritual and Temporal Power People distracted betwixt the fear of making Shipwrack of their Faith or their Fortunes know not how to avoid either Heresy on the one side or Rebellion on the other If the World were once well inform'd of the just bounds of those two Powers and knew wherein they consisted and how far they extended such contests would either not happen or if they did People would readily know which part to take However it be pray satisfie me at least in this particulars The sâ—â—â—stance of your Answer consists in this that the Doctrines I objected belong not to your Faith or Church But does not this belong to your Faith That the Pope is the Vicar of Christ upon Earth I think you would not take him for a Catholick who should deny it Now if Christ gave to the Pope the Power he had himself since He without doubt had all both Spiritual and Temporal Power how can you avoid being oblig'd and that by an Article of your Faith to acknowledge that the Pope likewise has all manner of Power and may justly and lawfully do all those things which your Letter calls the exorbitant fancies of private men This Friend exceeds the bounds of probable opinions and intrenches strongly on your Faith Wherefore you shall not deny either my friendship or importunity an Answer to it But answer so if possibly you can that these doubts or umbrages or what you perhaps may find a better name for then I can give a reason of may trouble me no longer Will you permit me to deal plainly with you I suspect you have said more then you are allow'd to say and more then I should be allow'd to hold if I were of your Communion The Jews ware not more zealous to make Proselytes then you are and what know I but you may have a design upon me and say more what you think may induce me to think favourably of your Religion then what your Religion gives you warrant to say Let me therefore intreat you to say nothing but what a good Catholick may unreprovably say and what I may be secure shall not be he disallow'd by your Church And since I can promise you no other fruit of your labour for I do not think you hope in earnest to make a Proselyte of me accept the assurance I give you that you shall at least firmly bind to your Service Yours c. FRIEND YOU know the power of your friendship over me and you make use of it For ought I see mine is just the case of handsome-handed Tom Fool whom that praise betray'd to so much labour that he complain'd his dexterity had almost cripled him Pray God my easiness or your importunity give me not one day more cause of complaint then he had But since you will not be deny'd 't is best to obey you without more a do For your unquietness I could laugh at it if its deeper root did not give me too much cause of grief As sincere as you are you are prejudic'd Friend and this unquitness of yours is the strugling betwixt reason which you plainly see and a passion so secret that 't is hid even from your self which hinders you from entertaining freely what you see Not but that I know your candour well and am enough perswaded you are not conscious of opposing reason wilfully and would be your Compurgator of sin against the Holy Ghost But thus it happens Ever since the change of Religion and the bad attempts of some Catholicks in the days of Queen Elizabeth heightned by the horrid Powder Treason it has been perhaps the direction of the State however the employment of Pulpits to give bad impressions of Catholicks and their Religion And this has been done so long and so universally and so vehemently that since you find the effect of it I may reasonably judge there is none who has not his share and who has not found an Idea of Catholicks more according to what they have been represented then what they are As the Nature and circumstances of men are different and some are fram'd to a sweet uprightness others to an unwayward crosness Again some converse much with good Catholicks some with bad ones some with none and who have no other knowledge of them but as they hear of strange animals in Afric or the Indies so men are differently affected towards them But I believe there is none who has not more or less of the bad Idea so much endeavour'd to be fixt upon them and that no hearty Protestant can hear things said to the advantage of Catholicks or their Religion without that unquietness at least which you find in your self It were to be wisht and perhaps expected from the Charity of Pulpits that the example of that wise and merciful King against whom that Treason was plotted might have been followed and the Innocent distinguisht from the Guilty But whatever might or should have been we see what is done and you find the effect in your self whereof that you may not think reason the cause consider a little that while we pass generally for ignorant stupid people led blindly into all the follies to which our blinder Guides our Priests conduct us you object craft and subtlety to me Reason Friend is more uniform and more of a piece and objects not so crosly For what you say of our Jewish zeal of gaining Proselytes I must avow to you I am of St. Pauls mind and wish non tantum se sed etiam omnes qui audiunt hodie fieri tales qualis ego sum exceptis vinculis
look off you will not do so much for her as wipe off those blemishes 'T is true you have told me and 't is the only thing to purpose you have told me that That cannot be the Churches Doctrine which is openly disclaim'd by a great part of the Church and that part acknowledg'd Orthodox by all the rest But if your Chuch forbid any to profess their minds as freely as others it must needs be suspected She has more kindness for these Doctrines than is for Her honour and however sound she may be is yet a very injurious Church which obliges her Subjects to pass for suspicious and dangerous people and be thought to hold what they are not oblig'd to do and what perhaps they do not hold but must not say so Besides I have already told you the Case is not much different whether these Doctrines belong to your Faith or not if they be thought true for that is enough to make them practic'd upon occasion And if your Church permit none to say they are false who can think but she desires they should pass for true and that they will do so at last if they do not already And then truly we have great security from your Answer as if because these Doctrines do not belong to your Church as Church they might not be made use of by your Church as so many men I told you this before and you saw well enough how much your Churches reputation was concern'd notwithstanding what you say for her and yet you continue cold and will say no more Never tell me This Lethargy of yours is not for nothing If you be grown careless of your own credit and interest I thought nothing could have quench't the Zeal you all have of your Church How a Papist insensible when the Honour of his Church is in question Deny it as long as you will either you are forbidden to speak and let people know what you harbour in your breasts or you harbour something there which 't is not for your interest people should know In short this constraint which is upon you must either be from abroad or at home You deny there is any from abroad And I hope you say true otherwise I know not what to think of a Church which permits not her Subjects to approve their fidelity to their Prince If it be at home it can be nothing but Guilt and shame and the Conscience of adhering to bad Tenets For I hope you do not think in earnest the State should take it ill of any who should profess as openly as he will that he is an honest man and a good Subject If you fear nothing from your own side it goes very ill with you if you have to fear from ours We know who they are to whom the Civil-sword is a Terrour Excuse not your self upon my curiosity and think it inconsiderable and unworthy of satisfaction 'T is true I am curious and if I were not you would make me so But let me tell you my curiosity is more a friend to you then your squeamishness For pray consider No Commonwealth at least none of a different Communion is safe where those Doctrines are receiv'd which are current among some of you Who 's the Friend I who give you occasion and press you to clear your selves or you who by your backwardness will make it shortly be thought you cannot be clear'd I know well enough there is no great Community nor can be whose Members are all free from fault The nature of mortality bears not an absolute perfection But do you think it a small point of friendship that I offer you the means to make it appear that whoever is faulty you are not Every body can tell and were it put to your self I am fully perswaded you would not deny it that he is not very well principled for a Subject who believes what some of you teach While you make such a mystery of it no body can say you are not of the number and many will suspect you are In fine there is no choice but either you do believe ill and then I must change my good thoughts of you or you do not and then either say so plainly or you are the most superlative Politick in the world to take other mens faults upon you and entitle your self to a guilt which is none of your own If you will give off the defence of your Church and leave her to shift as well as she can for her self why with all my heart I have no reason to wooe you to a sense of your Churches reputation If you will grow careless of your own fame and be content to have it thought you deserve the harsh censures which some make of you you may too if you please though as a Friend I would advise you to do otherwise But let me tell you if you become forgetful we shall not We remember there was such a time as 88 and a thing call'd the Invincible Armada and which might have been so indeed if the Commanders had not been more careful to stick punctually to their Orders then do their business We remember the cause of all this was what Sixtus the Fifth cals Heresie of the Queen which mov'd him to expose the Kingdom as a prey and Philip the Second to seize it We know this cause remains and hope it will do so If it have not wrought since we may thank the want of opportunity and prospect of another Armada But when occasion serves we cannot but think the same cause will be apt to produce the same effect Now pray review your Politicks and see whether they will counsel you to settle this opinion among your fellow-Subjects that in such a case which may happen because it hath happened there are who would joyn with an enemy and help to enslave their Countrey and that you are the men If your Politicks do advise you to this they are the worst natur'd unkindest Politicks in the world I am sure let who will be the Politician I am the Friend But however they advise you we who are no Politicians should be glad to know there are none such among us or if there be who they are We value our own safety though you do not your credit Notwithstanding if you will persist in your Politick diffidence and think we Hereticks are not to be trusted so far as to be made acquainted that you are not errant Knaves I cannot help it But I will convince you if I can that there is something more then bare curiosity in the matter Let me tell you in confidence since this business must needs be made a secret that I am no such stranger to it as you think I 〈◊〉 thought of it a whole Moneth at least and am deceiv'd if I do not see a little into the Milstone At least I am sure my eyes have one advantage which I suspect yours may want that they are not dazled with the lustre of great Names
The Controversial Letters OR THE Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth and the true Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome The first two Letters The Second Edition LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Toke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-Yard MDCLXXIV E. Libris Beblioth Eccles Cathedr Petribur SIR I Fear the heat of our last Encounter may have done me some prejudice in your good opinion and would justifie to you if I can both my zeal and my friendship Permit me therefore with a more settled calmness to give you the Reasons which sway'd with me then but which the promptness of my nature possibly might so disguise that they might not then appear reason to you As this is my only so I hope 't will be my full justification for though we ow much to friendship we ow more to Truth and that Friend who bars the use of reason in his Friend does in my judgment ill deserve that Name Notwithstanding let me add what I think you are already sufficiently perswaded of that I am far from the blind zeal of those who think Popery an imputation so scandalous and contagious that it destroyes all correspondence with those who own it I have met with several besides your self of your judgment in Religion accomplisht men and so qualified that I cannot but wish either that all such men were Protestants or all Protestants such men I think so well of some parts of your Religion that there are who think the worse of me I read your books alwayes without hatred and sometimes with pity at the unequal combat betwixt the Knight and the Giant though I make no doubt you are even with us in this particular and are all Knights in your own Countreys When I hear People cry out Papists and Popery I have sometimes the bluntness to ask what they mean for having heard them apply'd both to Prelatics and Fanatics they must needs be words of a strangely large size and magical comprehension if they can fit parties so different and what know I but they may be so explain'd that you may own them no more than other folks In fine I look upon my reason as one of the greatest gifts I have receiv'd from God and am perswaded 't is a duty I ow him to use it as well as I can Wherefore I as little approve the passionate zeal of our side as I understand the sublime perfection of blind obedience on yours but where I see you have reason I am content to allow you have so Yet after all Friend I must continue constant to what I maintain'd at our last meeting I love my King and my Countrey as I ought and can neither believe that can be a true Religion which teaches doctrines inconsistent with Government nor believe otherwise but that yours does teach such doctrines And though I know their pestilent influence does not alwayes work for you have in the late times of tryal approved your selves honest men yet I cannot think that Commonwealth safe in which they are either tolerated or conniv'd at Of this I will make your self Judge and in this Paper produce my evidence which shall be the very words of the most famous Authors amongst you who if they be sufficient for number and considerable for learning and plain in expression and own'd for yours I see not what more can be expected from me nor what at all can be reply'd by you or any else To begin then there are I must confess some modest men amongst you Bellarm. de Rom. Pon. l. 5. c. 2. who speak sparingly of the Pope and affirm Princes are not the Popes Vicars These exempt from his Soveraignty the greatest part of the World for they make Infidel Princes true and supreme Princes of their own Kingdoms and say the Pope is not Lord of those possessions which Infidels hold Nay they go so far as to dare say He is not JVRE DIVINO Lord so much as of the whole Christian world Id. c. 3. And that all his power to depose Princes and dispose of their Kingdoms is only indirectly and in ordine ad spiritualia which alas is a matter of nothing and he must needs be a very scrupulous man who boggles at it For this opinion are cited besides two Cardinals Bellarmine and Cajetan abundance of other famous men with hard names Henricus and Joannes Driedo Turrecremata Pighius Waldensis Petrus de Palude Franc. Victoria Dominicus Soto Sanderus Aspileveta Covarruvias and so many others that Bellarmine affirms it is communis sententia Catholicorum Theologorum though in that particular as you will presently see he was a little out But these as many and as learned as they are are but dow-bak't men and scent strongly of wicked carnal policy and heresie too as an honest Gentleman fairly insinuates by the title of his Book Alex. Carrerius adversus impios Politicos nostri temporis Haereticos design principally against this opinion And so Bellarmine scap't fairly for Sixtus Quintus if the information I had from a very good hand deceive me not had a great mind to have burnt his book Though he scap'd more narrowly at Paris for giving too much to the Pope than at Rome for giving too little His fellow Suarez had his book burnt there by the common Hangman and he was found guilty of the same fault but he was a Cardinal for which respect I suppose they dealt more mercifully and only condemn'd and forbid him But this by the by Your hearty men whom the bugbears of carnal policy cannot fright from the defence of truth tell us another story and say plainly what we must trust too Vnless says Franciscus Bozius Fr. Bozius de Temp. Eccl. Monarchia praef ad Clem. 8. there be one supreme Monarch in the Church in all things the unity of the Church cannot be preserved for seeing the Church by divine institution doth consist of a Kingdom and a Priesthood if it were otherwise there should be in the same absolutely one Monarch of the Kingdom and another of the Priesthood That if for avoiding dissentions about sacred causes one supreme Head is appointed why not in the same manner of the Kingdom that there should be one and the same Head both of the Kingdom and Priesthood lest in like sort there should happen dissention betwixt them that therefore it is the rather to be held that Peter doth supply Christs place not only in the Priesthood but in the Kingdom that he might be a King and likewise a Priest according to the order of Melchisedech who was both a King and Priest The famous Cardinal Baronius sayes the same Baron Ann. Tom. 1. An. 57. p. 432 433. That David did foretell that the Priesthood of Christ should be according to the order of
Scholars for they are sure enough that for his own sake He will not use his power against those who maintain his interest It may be too with Princes as with other men who to compass some end upon which they are passionately set at present value not a mischief much more considerable than the loss of their present pretences which is farther of If the Pope can assist either French or Spaniard the Divines of that King whose part he takes may say any thing freely and Stasemen who have little esteem of Shoolmen will think the Pope sufficiently over-reacht when for a few pleasing words they have got peradventure a Town or Province So that your Princes seem to be alwayes playing with the Pope at Vy Politics in which game they think their steel to his quils advantage enough though I should think the advantage is cleerly on the Pope's side for as he cannot make stakes he hazards nothing but if Trump ever turn of his suit he bids fair for all Defende me gladio ego te defendam calamo peradventure was no such unequal offer Besides they may possibly have the art to turn his credit to their advantage and make use of it to keep their Subjects more obedient and more in aw It may be they have some of them no better original Title to all or part of their dominions than his Authority and then a blind man may see what reason they have to uphold it It may be these it may be other reasons sway with them but whatever they are or may be I think 't is plainly hatching a serpent in their bosoms For let us suppose the Pope and a Catholic Prince at ods a thing so far from impossible that 't is not unusual 'T is in his power you 'l say to continue Catholic whether the Pope will or no and then He 's safe for he gives the Pope no hold it being only Heresie upon which he can fasten But is this true that nothing will do it but plain Heresie Has not Zecchius taught us that the Pope may deprive Princes of their Kingdoms as oft as they do any great hurt in the Church And will not the bad example of contrasting stubbornly with the supreme Pastor be interpreted a great hurt in the Church Has not Fransciscus Bozius informed us that by reason of the supreme Monarchy in all things temporal Laws may be made by the Church and Kingdoms taken away for just causes If we ask what these just causes are Santarellus answers That Princes may be punisht and depos'd not only for Heresie but for other causes for their faults if it be expedient Ant. Sant in Her Schis Apostas c. c. 30. 31. if Princes be negligent if their persons be insufficient if unuseful How few Princes are there who fall not under some of these qualifications or at least may not be judged to do so when the Pope and He their Enemy is to be Judge As certainly it were a crime greater than the greatest of these to seek the determination of these things from any else This negligence though stumbles me a little for it seems a general and something a captious word and I think it would be to the satisfaction of those who are concern'd if it were defined as soon as might be how many hours a day a King is to give audience that he may not pass for negligent But the man for my money is Thomas Bozius who tells us plainly That the Church the Spouse of Christ De Jure Stat. l. 1. c. 6. p. 6. and Queen of the world may as often as the order of the whole doth require c. transfer the proper rights of one to another as a secular Prince may cast down private mens houses for the beautifying the City or impose tribute for the weal public That he may thus justly do although he hath not erred from whom such rights are transferred to another so the Pope gave the Indians to the Spaniards 'T is an honest fellow this Bozius and cares not for mincing matters Give me the man that speaks out But what think you is Heresie the only unkinging crime when you see any great harm negligence insufficiency unusefulness will do it When innocence it self is no security and the best King of the world may be turn'd out of his Kingdom and that justly if another be thought able to govern more handsomely What handsome work will these Maxims one day make in the world if they be suffered to take deep root For my part I cannot see but Catholic Princes as secure as you make them are no less concern'd then Protestants to beware of them and weed them up quickly and effectually But is it so easie to scape the crime even of Heresie I doubt not and am filthily mistaken if this word Heresie have not as comprehensive a sense and be not of a nature as plyable as Popery amongst us and if managed with equal dexterity may not prove equally serviceable The late King was the honour of Protestant Religion and certainly had never a Subject more unmoveably fixt in it than himself And yet malice made him pass for a Papist at least inclin'd to Popery do what he could and by that imputation principally undid both him and the Kingdom Henry the third of France was possibly as hearty a Catholic yet all his industriously affected bigotteries his great beads and Friers weeds could never clear him from the stain of Heresie maliciously fixt upon him till he fell with a fate different from that of our glorious King in this that his Kingdom suffer'd more no longer his own end was more private being execrably murthered by a private Paricide whereas the barbarous injustice done to our King was heightned by the formalities of public justice So that as far I see Heresie is as dangerous as Popery with us and as hard to be avoided But let us consider a little Sancius has told us that it is to be held with a right Faith that the Principality of the Bishop of Rome is the true and only immediate Principality of the whole World c. If this be right L. 4. c. 1. p 319. the contrary sure is wrong Faith and wrong Faith I think is Heresie Thomas Bozius who never fails will tell us that Christ committed to St. Peter the Carrier of the keys of eternal life the right both of the Terrene and Celestial Empire as Pope Nicholas saith from whom we have it that he is without doubt an Heretic who taketh away the rights of the Terrene and Celestial Empire committed by Christ to the Church of Rome and saith it is lawful so to do and for that he shall be an Heretic in such his assertions P. 152. And Carrerius that the Bishop of Rome is the highest Father and Man of the world and the universal Vicar and Lord of the world and that all others depend upon him as their builder and that otherwise if one
will the Pope looks quietly on lets them cool and take breath and too 't again and this is fair play But to depress one side and cherish the other and this vigorously and constantly is something odd for probabilities In the name of wonder are Schism and Heresie probable amongst you into which one side of your probabilities alwayes runs Or is it an approv'd custom amongst you to excommunicate for probabilities In fine say what you will I cannot think otherwise but that these probabilities of yours are as improbable as any thing in the world Then for your other pretence that the Church all this while interposes not either all words universally have conspir'd together to abuse us and make us understand nothing even of the plainest or there is no sence in it One would think that Church in Spirituals is as state in Temporals Now if two Princes fall out and the King of France for example assist the one with council and forces and the endeavours of his Ministers we say usually and I think pertinently that the State of France is engaged on that side and he who should deny it would be thought deficient either in his language or his wits For can a more pleasant paradox be invented than that an Army marching by commission of the King of France owning his orders and He their actions were all the while but a company of particular men in whose doings the King and State are unconcern'd Now for King say Pope and for State say Church and where is the difference Notwithstanding as I am not much acquainted with quirks and fear the subtle Distinguo and the triccum de schold as much as the triccum de lege I will not undertake but that amongst so many school Physitians as you have some Logical plaister may be found out which you may apply to this sore But this I see that whatever effect a distinction may have in the Schools it will do no manner of good in the world For if the men of your Church persecute other men they will be no less persecuted whether your Church do this as a Church or under some other formality The world is a material thing and formalities alter not its settled course Discredit and want and pain are materiall things and when they fall upon a man he will be ill at ease in spite of all the belief formalities can afford him And if material Subjects rebell against a material King and drive him out of his material Kingdom I think it matters not much what formalities there were in the case I suppose he will be little the better by learning his Subjects did not act as Subjects nor treat him as a King and his new acquaintance with those subtle empty forms I fear will yield him small comfort If your formalities can preserve or restore Kingdoms if they can make honest men of Traitors if they can restore the credit of private men and relieve their wants and ease their distresses I shall acknowledge they are worth hearkning after But if they can do none of these things the Schools that invented them had even best keep them to themselves and much good may they do them The world has neither need nor use of them for real mischiefs are not cur'd by verbal distinctions We complain that the material Governor of your Church arrogates to himself a power dangerous to Princes and that the material men of your Church maintain him in it and both together hotly prosecute All who are not as hot as themseves Tell not me the Church indeed does this but not as a Church for as a Church or not as a Church she does it and if the mischief be done what matter is it how Withrington ended his uncomfortable dayes in prison Walsh is in a fair way to the same preferment Thousands of people were ruin'd thousands destroy'd in Italy and Germany upon the contests betwixt the Pope and Emperor in France upon the Holy League and what happened in those places may happen every where 'T is a remedy for these mischiefs which I look after and security that they shall not one day happen here not the formality by which they were done For in fine a formal plaister to a material wound is but good words to him who is hungry We had our formalities too and our distinctions in the late war and heard enough of the politic capacity and the personal capacity but they neither abated any thing of the publick misery nor the deserv'd punishment inflicted on the witty Authors Our Pagan Juries found them guilty for all their acuteness and their sophistry had no effect with the illiterate Hangman and undistinguishing Halter We had the formalities of Justice to boot but they serv'd for nothing but to render a fact execrable in it self more barbarous and more inhumane You may have more and other formalities but after all they will be but formalities and not a jot more useful than ours You shall permit me to conclude with a Dilemma which I would recommend to your serious thoughts Either your Church it engag'd in these Positions or she is not if she be she is unexcusable for holding them if not you are unexcusable for not renouncing them when without injury to her authority or your own consciences you may I would gladly receive an answer to this Paper or rather a return for I do not think any answer can be made However I entreat you by all our friendship to let me know what you can say Having found you both rational and ingenious in other points you must needs satisfie the curiosity I have to know whether you will disclaim your Church or your reason for certainly you must make bold with one and the best I suppose will be but a bad choice As you are all brought up in a wonderful reverence to your Church I know it will be hard for you to acknowledge any thing amiss in Her and yet on the other side I think it will go against the hair of your temper to part with your reason and that you may be thought a good Son of your Church be content to be thought no good man as certainly he is not whose actions are not warranted by his reason Pray think not the worse of my friendship that I put you to so hard a choice Reason is the measure of friendship as of other virtues and we cannot sin against friendship by acting according to reason Besides Friend you live in a Communion disapprov'd by Law and unmaintainable by Reason and I think 't is the part of a friend to tell you so Wherefore once again pray think not the worse of me and be assured that whatever you think I truly am Your Faithful Friend and Servant SIR I Received your long Letter with the obligation you lay upon me to answer it and heartily wish you had made use of the power you have over me in some other occasion This subject is a kind of Candle to Flyes
with which if they happen to play they have great luck if they do not burn their wings You are at your ease and may freely talk at pleasure secur'd by the Laws and at defiance with the Pope The case is otherwise with us who believing of the Pope as we do and subject to the Laws as we are can neither be without respect for him nor apprehension of them and though we could speak even clearness it self 't is all to nothing but we fall foul on one of the Rocks Notwithstanding since I ow much to your friendship I would gladly preserve if I can your good opinion both to my self and Religion of which you speak so charitably and nothing like an enemy and besides would not be guilty of her shame by confessing she has nothing to answer nor of my own by continuing in an unjustifiable communion I obey you with this request that you will take care to preserve me from the hazard I run by serving you and let this Paper be seen by none but such as mean as well as you and I. First then I am so far from thinking our friendship shockt by your free proceeding that I take my self and Religion both obliged to your candor and wish from my heart I may as well justifie her as you have your friendship And for my Church there are so few who look upon her with equal eyes that this pity of yours as just and charitable as it is is yet more rare and I cannot see it without as much acknowledgment as satisfaction And yet as strongly as you discourse every where I think you have reason no where more than in this particular For so it is if we say nothing and when we are often and loudly provoked to speak still hold our tongues we have a bad cause and such for which nothing can be said if we speak we are insolent and cannot keep our selves quiet when we are well And after all 't is the Combat betwixt the Knight and the Giant still as you have rightly observed But the world is the world where Reason as much our nature as it is cannot hinder but Chance and Interest and Passion and several humours to which men are subject will have their share in the conduct of things Wherefore without complaining farther of what complaints are not likely to remedy I think it best to address my self to my defence And the first point of it shall be to declare I mean not to defend any of those opinions which you have alledged with so much sharpness for in truth I think them not defensible and that there is not more sharpness than justice in what you say Not but that to own who would take the pains to peruse the Authors you have cited some of those Sayings possibly might not appear so ugly as they do in your Paper For there is a great difference betwixt words taken as they lie in the whole Context and singled out from their fellows who might peradventure to some of them afford some tolerable explication But besides that I conceive that labour not necessary for my purpose I have no kindness at all for the Doctrines and not enough for the Authors to prevail with me to undertake it I have heard from those who meddle with Controversie that their greatest difficulty often is to preserve the credit of private men whom because they are of the same Communion they are so unwilling to affront that they have much ado to preserve the Church from the contagion of their Errors As my nature is a little more blunt I have no such difference for them and think it but just that Qui pergit quae volt dicere ea quae non volt audiat Let them shift for themselves on Gods name or let those defend them who approve their Maximes For my part I hate them heartily and think it but a preposterous Charity to be so tender for the credit of those who betray the credit of the Church Allowing then for reason all you say against those opinions of which I think as ill as you can do I yet conceive your reason fails in the inference you draw from them That true Religion cannot teach Doctrines inconsistent with Government That a Commonwealth is not safe in which such Doctrines are either tolerated or conniv'd at that is when they come to be instilled and get credit with the People otherwise while they remain in the Schools I should think the danger not very great for Kingdoms are not overturn'd by Syllogisms Farther if you please that the Doctrines you have produced are such Doctrines I freely grant you But that our Church does teach such Doctrines I deny and notwithstanding all you have said if you still preserve your unbyass'd candor hope to make the contrary very evident And first because with you I think my authority may signifie something for you know I will not tell you a lye you shall permit me to say something of my own knowledge I was born you know of Catholic Parents bred up in Catholic Religion and have lived some part of my time in Catholic Countries I have been at their Schools heard their Catechisms their Sermons their Discourses and by the care of my Friends and some pains of my own think few of my condition more fully instructed in that Religion I assure you faithfully I was never taught any such Doctrine nor ever heard the Church taught it On the contrary I have been bred up in this belief that obedience to my King is not only truly a duty but a duty truly required by Religion and this perswasion was so well setled in my heart that I yet remember how great and surprizing a horror the late Rebellion caused in me when I was too young to judge otherwise of it or any thing else but as I found it contrary to the sentiments which had been instilled into me I have heard indeed of the opinions you cite but as of extravagancies of bold men and when I came to the age of judging of things my self found that though they were held by men living in Communion with the Church they had yet no warrant from the Church to hold them nor any better ground than their own mistaking reasonings and so continued to detest them by judgment as I did before by Education Now this answer which it seems you foresaw you have endeavoured to prevent making use your self of an Artifice of Rhetoric to bar me the assistance of Logic for you would perswade me that to distinguish the material Church from the formal or the man from the Churchman is an idle airy nicety which is of no use in the World But truly one of us is much mistaken for I think on the contrary that nothing is more obvious nothing more familiar let me add nor more necessary and that even to your material world as you call it which without such distinctions would quickly run into confusion The World is made up of men
holds them If that Argument be good this likewise of necessity must be good Learned men in the Church hold those Doctrines false and wicked therefore the Church does so too for the same authority cannot but have the same force either way and the Deniers have as much power to remove the imputation from the Church as the affirmers to fix it upon her You have cited if not all yet the most considerable of those who maintain them and they make some ten or twelve 'T is pretty odd that the judgment of ten or twelve men must needs be taken for the judgment of the Church But let that pass by the same rule the judgment of ten or twelve of the contrary must conclude the judgment of the Church for the contrary Wherefore if I produce as many and as famous men for the Negative as you have done for the affirmative 't is without more a do a drawn match and nothing being proved either way the Church is absolved by the Law of nature by which every one is innocent who is not proved nocent But what will become of your Argument if for one of your side I produce two if ten peradventure twenty on the contrary Either you must confess the Argument has no force or the Church innocence efficaciously proved by it unless peradventure you can find some subtile formalities by which you will maintain your single man is stronger than my ten or twenty Now all this is not only possible but already done to my hand by Caron the learned defender of the Irish Remonstrance who in his Loyalty asserted what betwixt Canonists and Divines Schoolmen and Fathers Popes Councils Universities Kingdoms c ' has made a Catalogue of more than two hundred and fifty Defenders of the contrary Doctrine You see then I had no necessity of flying to Formalities to answer your Argument For by your own Rule and Method the Church is proved not to hold the Doctrines you mention and not only so but plainly to hold the contrary nothing being more unreasonable in the world than to give it with the ten against the two hundred or to think that ten is a sufficient number to engage the Church one way and two hundred not sufficient to engage her the other But looking a little nearer unto it me thinks it is of kin to Boccalin's Age pargeted four fingers thick with appearances Strip off the gay Jacket of pretty smartness in which you have drest it and there will remain as little substance and less soundness Learned men say you say such things therefore the Chureh says them What if you be as much mistaken in your Antecedent as Inference and that they prove not learned who say them Words you know are slippery things and you have well exemplified in divers I fear this term Learned men and Learning is no less slippery nor less abused than those which are most so But not to be too severe a Divine is a Learned Man can he therefore prescribe Physic The Metaphysician the Natural the Moral Philosopher the Mathematician the Physician the Lawyer are all esteemed learned men but their learning is confin'd every one to his proper profession out of that their authority is of no moment and they may with all their learning be very ignorant in matters which belong not to them Now consider a little The men whom you have cited are excepting one or two all Canonists and esteemed able men in that profession but every one knows their profession consists in declaring what the meaning of the law is and what the intention of the Law-maker and if they go beyond this they exceed the bounds of their profession Our Question now whether the Pope have or have not such a power to what skill does it belong To the Law Plainly nothing less What the Pope has Commanded and what he meant by the words in which he has exprest his commands is as far as the Lawyer can go but what power he has to command and how far that reaches is quite out of his Sphere If I mistake not for 't is a study in which I have no skill the power of the Lawmaker is a Principle supposed not proved in the Law for if a Lawyer go about to prove it keeping without the limits of his own Art he argues a posteriori thus He has commanded such and such things therefore he has power to command them And this is a proper and good law proof where the first Maxim is that the Law is just and the power of the Law-maker still supposed If the Lawyer venture upon other proof he intrenches upon anothers skill in which possibly he may be very ignorant And he that will not be satisfied with this nor admit his other Maxim Lex non facit injuriam but excepts against Law and Power and all has no remedy but to seek satisfaction elsewhere In fine what the Pope claims from Christ belongs to the Divine what from Reason and the force of Nature to the Philosopher only what he claims to the agreement of men belongs to the Lawyer and in this he ought to be heard in other things he is Sutor ultra crepidam Your discourse therefore which appears so trim and gay in the dress you have given it has no more strength than the authority of a few men in a matter wherein they have no authority and if they had is overpowred by a greater and this methinks you needed not have thought so unanswerable Were you now an Adversary with whom I should think fit to use the Right establisht by the Laws of disputation I should say no more for an Answerer has fully discharged his part who has shewn his Opponents Argument concluding But since we are Friends and write not to convince but inform one another I shall return to my old way which I take to be the way of Nature and endeavour to shew you more minutely how unreasonable it is the Church should be charged with those errors Church signifies a Congregation of Faithful and Faithful Men who have Faith And since Men cannot be without Reason nor Reason without working in them 't is unavoidable that besides the perswasions lodg'd in them by Faith men will have others which proceed from their Reasons to say nothing of Passion and the Animal Nature which has its efficacie upon the Faithful as well as all the rest of mankind Now as in the rest of the actions of men Nature forces us to look into the Principles from whence they proceed and attribute every one to his proper cause which if we did not all would presently turn into confusion So we must here and consider in the actions of the Faithful Whether they act as Faithful or as Men. And those Actions which proceed not from Faith but Reason or Passion are no more to be charg'd upon the Church than the Covetise or Cruelty or whatever faults of men in office upon their Offices And in all this there is
so little subtilty that every body does the like almost in every occasion There remains only to examine upon what Principle those who assert these errors proceed whether upon Faith or some other Faith is a reliance upon some Authority and in our case the Authority of Christ who alone is acknowledged the Author and Revealer of all which we are to believe Wherefore of any point in question it must either be pretended that it was revealed by Christ or it cannot be pretended that it belongs to Faith and if any maintain it upon other grounds so far he acts not as a believer but as otherwise qualified Now there are in the world two principal ways by which claim is made to the Authority of Christ for that which we maintain is Faith and that wherein we do not engage his Authority neither of us say is Faith or that they act as faithful who upon reason or experiment for example maintain any thing The World hopes from the learned industry of the Royal Society the sight of many truths yet hidden from her but all their endeavours can never make Faith of them nor concern your Church in them as considerable members of it as some of them are For they go not your Church-way of Faith They look not into Scripture but Experiments and act as Learned not as Church-men What they shall discover to the World will be revealed not by Christ but by them and if any believe them they will have no Christian but Society-Faith Such is the case of our Church Tradition in her known method by which she pretends to the Authority of Christ If any will run upon their own heads and discourse and maintain things and never look into her Rule She can be no more concerned in their proceedings than the Church of England in those of Gresham Colledge For since Faith is that by which she is a Church and Tradition that by which she comes to Faith people must engage Faith if they will engage the Church and Tradition if they will engage her Faith Wherefore whoever goes about to prove any thing otherwise than by Tradition uses not the method to come to Faith I mean the method approved by our Church and this conclusion whether true or false neither reaches Faith nor aims at it and by consequence cannot belong to the Church or Congregation of the Faithful Now reflect a little upon your Authors and see if they go this way to work and the first thing is the consent of the present Age for Tradition signifying the consent of all Ages 't is a madness to pretend it for that which is not believed so much as by the present Do they or can they even offer at this while they see themselves contradicted by men as learned and farr more numerous While all the Universities of a great Kingdom disapprove and condemn their Doctrine and their Books are burnt in the face of the World by public Justice and the men who do this acknowledged good Catholics all the while Do they or can they pretend the consent of former Ages while they know all Antiquity agrees that for many Ages Popes were so Supreme in Spirituals that in Temporals they were Subjects Such they acknowledged themselves and as such the Emperours treated them When and how and upon what occasion they came to be temporal Princes is known to all who are knowing in History A condition by the way which he who envies them little understands or little loves the good of the Church with which 't was much worse when Popes were hindred from doing their duty by the unjust violence and oppression of powerful men amongst whom they lived Do they alledg the undoubted Testimonies of the Fathers of the Church assembled in a general Council Nothing of this appears in what you have produced The men themselves are most of yesterday All many Ages since Christ and there needs no second Argument to prove any thing that it is not Faith if it can be proved that it began in any Age since the first as these opinions plainly did But consider their Arguments They are either grounded upon some odd interpretation of Scripture as the order of Melchesedech the two Swords St Peters walking on the water and the like or else upon some deduction and reasoning as weak as the water which they mention And this methodt though per impossibile it could prove the thing true yet could never prove it to be Faith There are many things in the world which are so acknowledged to be true that they are withall acknowledged not to be Faith Was it taught by Christ Was it believed by Christians Semper ubique ab omnibus Till this appear it neither is nor can be Catholic Faith But that which I insist upon is that this method is plainly resolved into Reason and can no more engage the Church of Rome than the experimental learning of the Royal Society the Church of England The Authors you produce rely not upon the Authority of Christ testified by an uninterrupted conveyance down to us but upon the strength of their own discourses which if they be weak and fail the Church never undertook that all in her Communion should discourse strongly Neither can she herself do more then testifie of the truths delivered to her and they are such and were so delivered This testimony is all which can be expected from her as a Church speaking of what concerns us to speak of her power to make Ecclesiastical Laws and the like are no part of our case if she fail in this and either testifie that to be delivered which was not so or suppress any thing which was delivered blame her but for this that some Members in her Communion have weak Reasons or strong Passions if you blame her consider the confusion you will bring into the World which I have so much dilated before that to repeat it would be tedious here But will you have a taste of the Churches sense of these things Consider the Hymn made in the first Ages of the Church inserted since by public Authority into her solemn Office received by all the Faithful and used on the Feast of the Epiphany Non eripit mortalia qui Regna dat coelestia Can the Church which prays thus be thought to favour the deposing power Or can her sense appear more plainly than in the consent of an universal practice But let us look upon her in a Council Wickleff amongst other errors had advanced this Proposition Populares c The people may at their pleasure correct their offending Lords Con. Const Sess 8. And this amongst the rest was condemned by the Council of Constance To the same Council was offered another Article worded in this manner Quilibet Tyrannus c. Every Tyrant may and ought lawfully and meritoriously be killed by any of his Vassals or Subjects even by secret plots and subtle insinuations or flatteries notwithstanding any Oath or League made with
it fitting to do what you desire and I will do it And that you may be satisfied I am in earnest I promise you faithfully to renounce these Positions as fully and solemnly as you can desire whenever you shall make it come to pass that so to do is my duty and not onely a bare gratification of your curiosity and in the mean time assure you I heartily abhor them and alwayes did The Child lyes now at your door F. A If you truly desire the thing should be done provide a good Why we should do it For my own part I tell you truly I shall take it very unkindly if after this I pasâ— still undistinguisht among those whom you think deserve suspicion and distrust and since you have urged me to this Declaration conceiving you are obliged to take care that it be not wholly useless Pray let me put another Dilemma to you Either your credit is great enough to preserve us from the inconvenience of speaking plainly or it is not If not we are blameless who are not forward to run into inconveniences to no purpose if it be 't is you are blameable who urge us to an inconvenience which you can but will not remedy Mean while to be ill lookt upon and ill treated if we make our selves appear honest Catholics and not so much as have protection for being Catholics is to be acquitted of Burglary and found guilty of Felony Methinks it is something unreasonoble to make the maintenance of pernicious Doctrines the ground why we should be liable to punishment and keep us every jot as liable if we disclaim them Not but that we are very sensible of our present quiet and bless and pray for the merciful Authors of it But yet the Law is the Law still And it is very uneasie to have no better security either of Estate or Life than a bare stop to the course of the Law which may be removed at pleasure For my own part as I am but John Porter so I hope 't is a modest and pardonable ambition if I wish to continue so with security And since an extravagance in others which I cannot help may make you jealous even of my Frock and Cords I shall gladly Endeavour to cure that jealousie by any remedies which Reason can prescribe or Honesty take But till you can procure thus much favour to urge a testimony of honesty so ungrateful to him to whom we owe and must pay a fitting respect and when we have given it to continue us still in the condition of Knaves is hard in it self and harder from you who have profest so often that you punish not for Religion but Treason Religion indeed is the most comfortable cause of suffering and that which if I must suffer I would chuse But yet suffering is suffering still let the cause be what it will And though I esteem Patience very much and desire the Vertue with all my heart I know not why I should desire the occasions to exercise it and believe it is better not to need live Pigeons than to have them Coming to review what I have writ I find the hasty course of my pen intent upon the main body of the discourse has past over several branches which deserve to be particularly taken notice of As when you say that so the mischievous Doctrines be allowed it is all one whether they be allowed by the material Church or the formal To which I reply the difference is very great For were the Church truly engaged for them there were no remedy but either to own the Doctrines or disown rhe Church But if she be not engaged for them as she is not one may detest the Doctrines as I do and yet remain in the Church Again when you make Church and State equivalent I conceive the difference appears sufficiently in what has been said State signifies a body of men united under such a Government and such Laws and what the Governours do the State is said to do for to the Governour it belongs to command in public concerns to the rest to obey Church signifies a body of men living according to Doctrines and Laws establisht by Christ and because as men they cannot but have an act upon other Principles too those actions only and Principles which are derived from Christ can properly belong to the Church in the rest they are to be lookt upon as men not as faithful Besides you have produced some few who have the boldness to entitle those Errors as gross as they are to Faith and make the contrary Heresie To which I answer There are a great many strange things in the world and peradventure few stranger than that men should get the reputation of learning and yet not know so much as what Faith is or at least the means by which it has come to us The Regia Via as Councils call it of Faith is both plain in it self and plainly recorded in the Monuments of the Church and that people should think to come to it by their own little by-ways and make Faith of that which is publicly and unreprovably contradicted by the far greatest part of the present Church and has no footsteps at all in Antiquity and yet pass for learned men is a thing I have more disposition to admire than unriddle farther then in the short hint I gave of the abuse of that term by a wrong application If ought else have scap'd my observation by what I have said I presume you will easily guess what I would say to it Give me Leave to end with reflecting a little upon the difference there is betwixt these opinions maintained by the Adversarys of the Church of Rome and maintained by her Members For to flatter neither side Iliacos intra muros peccatur extra You communicate with deposing-principled men as well as we though thanks be to God neither true Protestant nor understanding Catholic communicate with the Principles Now for our Church I have shewn why this extravagance of some of her members is not imputable to her and hope you perceive how unreasonable it is that she would answer for the deviations of those who will not walk in her way nor make use of her Rule Some Popes indeed have behaved themselves otherwise than I wish they had But since they are Princes as well as Bishops I conceive it will not be thought strange if all great men are not Saints and if Humane Policy and a desire to encrease their greatness sway with them as with other Princes If they attempt upon the rights of others Kings I hope know well enough that they bear not the Sword in vain and can as well tell how to defend themselves and their Subjects from wrongs incident from them as from other men and sure I am that Catholics are so far from being restrained by their Religion that it obliges them to stand by their respective Sovereings in defence of his just Rights against the Pope as effectually
as against any other I could alledge that of those Popes who have gone farthest none has defined any thing concerning these matters in those circumstances which even those Divines who attribute most to them require as necessary to make it believed or ex Cathedra as they call it But I conceive it needless it seeming to me sufficiently evident by what has been alledged already that our Faith and Church are not to suffer by these exorbitancies and commonwealths can secure themselves by their own power But Friend the case is otherwise with you Your men alledge Scripture for these errors and engage your Rule of Faith and how the honest Protestant who in this case undoubtedly has the true sense of Scripture on his side can handsomely disengage his Church from a scandal to which is pretended the authority of her Rule is difficult to apprehend If people come not to their journies end who refuse to take the right road it is no wonder to any nor blame to the Guide whose office it is to shew men the right way but cannot make them follow it But your men pretend they keep the way your Church shews them to Truth and yet arrive at Error And when Error and Truth pretend both to the same Rule and that the Rule of your Church I should think your Church deeply concerned to consider by what means it may be decided which is Heresie and which Faith In short our erring men since they pretend not our Churches Rule can never fix their errors upon the Church nor advance them to Faith nor beyond the degree of opinions Yours since they pretend to the very Rule owned by you must needs till a certain way of proceeding upon that Rule or interpreting Scripture be setled render it doubtful to those who truly desire to be guided by your Rule which of the two is the doctrine of Christ and are therefore wonderfully more dangerous to the Church than ours Farther abstracting from Passion or Interest which may be equal in both ours because they have no firmer ground than their own deductions are more reclaimeable and may at any time relinquish their errors without offering violence to their Faith and Religion Yours because they pretend to your Rule of Faith are apt to mistake their misguided Fancies for Religion as we have seen in the late confusions the title of Saints appropriated to wicked men and so become fixt and unalterable in them for which reason they are also much more dangerous to the State as they were before to the Church In this inequality of cases I do not know the Church of England has proceeded so far as ours in the Council of Constance or condemned these Errors by any Authentic Censure though in my opinion it were proper for her to consider how much her Rule upon which depends her own stability is concerned in them Mean time instead of reproaching our several Churches with the errors of their several Members It were I think more to purpose I am sure more charitable to endeavour that all Errors might be taken away on both sides that by one Faith and one Baptism we may all serve our one Lord and God and reunite into one Holy and Immaculate and Glorious Church free from those spots and wrinkles which our unhappy Divisions have too too much and too long brought upon her This is what the desire to obey your commands has suggested to me in answer to your Letter You will pardon the length of it which as it is beyond my expectation so 't is beyond my power to remedy and give me leave to hope it may prevail with you not to abate either your Charity to my Religion or kindness to Your very humble Servant THE THIRD and FOURTH OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LETTERS OR THE GRAND Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth and the true Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of ENGLAND The other of the Church of ROME LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and Ship in St. Pauls Church-Yard MDCLXXIII FRIEND FOR all the thanks I owe you and all the Complements 't were fit I made you take this acknowledgment that you have answered beyond my expectation and this assurance that I will consider very seriously what you say and make such use of it that you shall have cause to think your labour not unprofitably spent But yet I cannot but complain of the secresie which you enjoyn me I for my part am so well satisfied of your way of writing that I cannot but think others will be so too and that this shiness of yours is injurious both to your self and the World and because unjust commands are not to be obey'd let me tell you frankly I mean not to confine your Papers to my closet They shall be seen if it please God by more Eyes then mine but yet not to fall absolutely out with you I will divide stakes and so communicate what you write that there shall be no suspition of the Writer This I promise you very faithfully and to do it with more exactness lest your name should be discovered I engage my self to conceal my own Then if John a nokes get all the praise from you the fault be upon your own Head For the rest to deal plainly with you I find my self I know not how Things will not settle with me and though out of the mouth of a good Protestant I believe what you say would have past good reason yet when I reflect you are a Papist that is if you will pardon my Freedom of a crafty insinuating Generation I have still a kind of grumbling This Papist marrs all and though I think my self as free from prejudice as other men I find t' wil not do I can not but fear being trapan'd You have I must confess said many things very well and more then I thought you had been allow'd to say but you are reserv'd still 'T is true you give Reasons for your reservedness which I can not answer but whether it be that my plain nature would have every thing as plain as my self or that curiosity be like Love where too much reason is thought blameable I could wish in this occasion you had us'd less Reason and more Freedom Speak out the whole truth man and be a good Protestant otherwise own the whole Falshood and be a Papist of the first magnitude I fear your half Catholicks are in as bad a Case as Montaltos half Sinners who shall be damn'd for not sinning enough For my part if I would be a Papist I would be a Papist to purpose Hang this motly Religion this half Rome half Geneva Faith which gets a man neither credit nor security I would be as good a Catholick as Bellarmin for his heart if I would be one and if I thought your Catholick Faith would save me I would take order mine
in his garment and on his high King of Kings and Lord of Lords Isa 33.22 The Lord is our King he will save us Psal 2.6 I am made by him a King over Sion his holy hill and a great many more of the same nature These say they and the like places are both plain in themselves and plainly expounded of a temporal regal power by the Fathers To which purpose they bring Theophylact expounding that to the Heb. whom he made Heir of all things that is made Lord of the whole World but how did he make him Lord Namely as man in the second Psalm he speaks to him Ask of me and I will give thee the Gentiles for thy Inheritance And St. Anselm upon the same place Whom the Father appointed according to the humanity the immutable Heir of all things that is possessor of all creatures And Haymo upon the same place too God the Father apointed his Son Heir of all things that is of the whole World or all creatures not onely according to the Divinity in which he is coeternal to his Father and coequal in the Omnipotence of the Deity and in which he eternally possesses all things with his Father but rather according to the humanity assum'd by the word he is appointed Lord and Heir over all creatures as God the Father promis'd him saying Ask of me c. And the Son himself rising from the dead speaks thus in the person of the humanity All power is given me in Heaven and in Earth Eusebius Emissenus He who according to his Divinity had alwayes with the Father and Holy Ghost power over all things now also according to his humanity has receiv'd power over all things as Man He who lately suffer'd let him Rule both in Heaven and in Earth and be believed the God and Lord not of the Jews onely but of all Nations L. 2. Cont. Parmen Optatus against the Donatists Why do you break such a promise and confine to a kind of Prison the vast extent of Kingdoms why do you strive to hinder so much goodness why are you against our Saviours merits Permit the Son to enjoy what was granted permit the Father to perform what he promised Why do you set bounds and fix Limits when the whole Earth was promised by the Father There is not any thing in any part of the Earth which seems exempt from his Possession The whole Earth with its Nations were given him These and the the like places are the chief supports of the affirmative opinion for I omit their Reasons not onely because a man who were strongly bent upon it may invent specious pretexts almost for any thing and they seem to me no other but because I take questions of Faith not properly to belong to the decision of meer Reason I mean in this manner that People should rashly determine by their ill grounded reasonings what is fitting or not fitting for God to do We are to learn of our Fathers and the Church what he has done and not by Airy speculations determine what he should do If this Doctrine hath been delivered to our Fore-Fathers we shall sure enough receive it from them but if we do not it will hardly belong to Faith even though it could be proved true In the mean time those who maintain the negative bring particular Answers to all these places the substance whereof devolves to this that the Kingdom and Regal power attributed to Christ in the Scripture is to be understood of his Spiritual Kingdom the Church unless where his person is spoken of as comprehending the divine as well as humane nature in which Cases Regal power and all that can be attributed to God may justly be affirmed of him 'T were to write a Book instead of a Letter to dilate them all particularly and when all is done this is the substance But then on their side they alleadge Scripture and Fathers in my opinion much more convincing And first they affirm the question is expresly and plainly decided by Christ himself Joh. 18.36 When being askt by Pilate if he were a King he denies it not but withal affirms his Kingdom is not of this World And methinks people might take his word and cease to dispute of what he so plainly determined for I cannot think otherwise but this Answer meets the difficulty in the Face and so reserves whether the right of omnipotence or spiritaal Regality as very positively to exclude Temporal power They alledge again Luke 12.14 Who has made me Judge or Divider betwixt you Our blessed Saviour was moved by one who heard him and perhaps believed in him to cause one Brother to divide an inheritance with the other And he not onely refuses the motion but says in a phrase usual in Scripture of denying by interrogation it was a matter in which he had nothing to do Now if Christ were truly a Temporal King 't is hard to imagine how rendring Justice to his Subjects who demanded it at his hands and determining emergent Controversies in which the very Office of a King does in a great measure consist should not belong to him I hove nothing to do with Possessions and I am no Temporal King to seem equivalent They alleadge besides Jo. 6.15 where Christ perceiving the multitude were resolved to make him King fled from them and hid himself Put him to have received temporal Dominion over all the World from his Father and 't will be hard to unriddle why he used it not in this occasion His Subjects more disposed to obey him they were willing they were forward to do their parts what can be said why he did not do his and govern them I said before and I cannot but repear it 'T is as much the duty of a King to govern as of Subjects to be governed and I cannot for my life imagine any other reason why he should refuse to govern then this that he was no temporal King If it may be permitted me to speak freely this position of temporal regal Power in Christ seems to me to include both nonsense and blasphemy For Nonsense it is to put a Power in him to no purpose an useless Metaphysical potentia never reduced into Act and blasphemy it is to say he was deficient in his duty and how that position will get clear of either of these absurdities I can by no means understand Other places of Scripture they bring but these are the most material Now because a Catholick cannot be a Catholick who maintains a position directly contrary to Scripture for neither he nor his position would be endured those of the other side have invented several Senses which they give to the places alledged and though those Senses seem to me full of Nonsense yet I cannot but commend in the Authors that they chuse rather to contradict common Sense then Scripture But do you Judge My Kingdom is not of this World that is say they 't is not by way of Election or Succession
I believe those who are of a contrary judgment will be convinc'd by what I have said neither did I go about to convince them My business was to satisfie you not to dogmatize And I hope you will perceive your Argument so answer'd that if those unquiet Spirits of fear and diffidence continue still to hant you the blame is not to be imputed to me Of two propositions which you assum'd to fix a power Paramount in the Pope upon our Faith I have shew'd a Catholick may safely deny either of both 'T is at his choice to take either way and any one does his business If he will deny a temporal Regality in Christ the difficulty is cut up by the root since a Vicar can not with any shadow of pretence challenge more then was in the Principal himself If not willing to meddle with that question he will take the other way and affirm that whatever power Chrit had he left only Spiritual to Peter and his Successors the difficulty is as fully cleared A Catholick take my word may unreprovably hold either or both and that you may have better security against your fears then my word can give you I have shewed you both maintain'd by those whom Catholicks are not permitted to reprove If all this be not enough to quiet your suspicious let me add that if you consider well you will find that of all men the Principles of Catholciks can least endure the contrary Doctrine Ask of your Fore-fathers walk in the antient Paths avoid novelties and the like are Maximes so known and universally receieved amongst them that who is known to contradict them is known so far to swerve from the acknowledged grounds of Catholick Religion Now when the authority of unquestionable antiquity is of the one side and on the other that of Authors both late and few and of no extraordinary credit a Catholick who knows what he does can so little doubt which part to take that I think he is not excusable if he so much as doubt or at least not otherwise then as zeal is excused by blindness None have that veneration for antiquity and Fathers which Catholicks pretend for they look upon them as the men who have begot them in the Gospel from whence they give them the name of Fathers as the most considerable Pillars of the Church as the principal Persons on whose attestation the Rule of Faith and Stability of Religion depends After the sacred Books of Scripture written by Divine Inspiration to which no writing of Man can be equall'd nor so much as compar'd we Reverence in the next place the Writings of the Fathers which we think useful too and the most useful of any to the understanding of the Scripture of which we hold them the best Interpreters We universally blame those of other Communions for preferring the obscurity of private interpretations before the clear light of Tradition And all these things are known and acknowledg'd by every body Wherefore since the great Lights of the Church St. Agustin and St. Hierom and St. Cyril and St John Chrysostom and St. Bernard and the rest shine clearly out and with a joint consent unanimously conspire into the same Doctrine none are so blamable as Catholicks if they oppose it And such men as Comitolus and Sermarinus and the like put into the contrary ballance weigh so little that t is shameful even that they should enter in The truth is the world goes otherwise then sharp-sighted men would think it should or could else t is not easie to conceive how it should be possible there should be found amongst those of our principles who should stand in opposition to the Fathers All that can be said is that worldly policy sometimes makes a little too bold with Christian simplicity and that preposterous zeal is very blind and therefore a very dangerous Guide And I shall take the liberty to tell you that understanding Catholicks who consider the way they take see if it were followed in other things it would mine Catholick Religion and that the men indeed perhaps by the priviledge of well meaning ignorance are Catholicks but the way is not a Catholick way Thanks be to God there are not many who walk in it and those who do I believe consider not what they do For sure I am that knowingly to sleight the Reverence due to Sacred Antiquity and set up new Masters in opposition to the Fathers of Christianity and Doctors of the Church agrees very ill with a Catholiek Spirit In fine as men will be men and God must make the World another thing then it is if we expect that all should do as they ought you will find among Catholicks some who hold the contrary Opinion but none who hold this reprovable And this I say the more confidently because I mistake very much if it be reprovable even amongst the Jesuits themselves who yet are thought the greatest Favourers of the Papal power At least I know they cannot reprove it without reproving their own best and most famous Authors Read Bellarmin de Rom. Pontif. the fourth Chapter of the fifth Book and Maldonat upon 27 Mat. and see if they do not both expresly hold and strongly prove the Doctrine of the Fathers and so far that the latter says people would make Christ a temporal King whether he will or no c. against his express declaration and that before a Court of Justice They are too long to be transcribed But if you take the pains to read them since that is safe enough from being reproved which there is no body to reprove I hope your suspicions will be at quiet However I think it but seasonable that I should and be permitted after so long a journey to rest Yours c. FINIS ERRATA PAge 3. line 13. read particular l. 36. r. were p. 7. l. 5. r. you cite p. 8. l. 1. for he r. his l. 5. r. enterfere l. 32. may r. my p. 10. l. 37. r. no extraordinary p. 17. l. 29. r. the Servants ear p. 18. l. 26. r. because he defiled l. 33. r. yet he gave l. 35. r. Rabanus p. 21. l. 6. r. dogmatically l. 9. r. any principle l. 11. r. his side p. 22. l. 8. r. suppose l. 28. r. branches p. 23. l. 22. r. Kings p. 24. l. 16. r. penetrat p. 27. l. 22. dele to l. 28. r. were disposed p. 30. l. 18. r. his answer signify'd l. ult r. resolvedness p. 31. l. 28. r. Creation By. The Fifth and Sixth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR THE Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1673. FRIEND I Must confess I am something better at ease at least I
me to think they do I have shew'd you what the Sentiments of the Fathers and the Church are for the rest it belongs not to me This which I have done being only to obey your Commands and testifie the power you have over Your c. The Seventh and Eighth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1673. FRIEND I Know not how it happens but the more you shew me methinks the less I see While I read your Letters I find not what to except against yet when I look off I remain still unsatisfi'd That there should be a Spiritual Power distinct from the Temporal is plainly necessary in it self and own'd by us We go not to Westminster Hall for remission of our sins or to hear the Word of God preach'd or receive the Sacraments These things belong to Spiritual Magistrates amongst whom the Chief with us is the Bishop of Canterbury as with you the Bishop of Rome And since for Orders sake and the nature of Government a Chief there must be It matters not much whether as one wittily said the top link of the Spiritual Chain be fastned to the Chair of Canterbury or of Rome So the Temporal Primacy be undisturb'd and undisturbable by the Spiritual it seems all one vvhether have it I mean in point of Safety for true or false is another question And truly I neither see how your Spiritual Primacy should disturb it if all be true you say nor why I should doubt of the truth of what you say while I consider you say nothing of your own head but bring such Vouchers for every thing that I think your Church cannot say otherwise unless she throw off that Reverence which with so much ostentation she professes to have for Antiquity And yet of necessity there must be more in it The mischiefs against which I would be secur'd have actually happened Princes have been deposed and the world has been too much concerned in the effects of this Power to be ignorant of it Our own Princes have not been exempt from attempts of this nature and the hazard the nation ran in 88. is not yet out of our memory So that manifestly either you believe one thing and do another or you have not inform'd me truly but covered an ugly face with a handsom vizar Truly I believe better of your candour than to suspect you deceive me by design yet certainly things are not so cleer and smooth of your side as you would make me believe To read your Papers one would think nothing could be more innocent than your doctrine in this Point yet the vvorld is witness of doings far from Innocent I must confess I was sometime sufficiently perplext to unriddle this mystery But at last I remembred Bellarmin and vvhen I reflected on his Indirect and in ordine ad Spiritualia Power methought I had found the clew to guide me out of this Labyrinth That distinction does it Friend and in truth I never so well understood the vertue of Distinctions before for by the help of this I perceive you may say enough to pass for honest men and in the mean time reserve as much liberty as heart can vvish to play the knave Pardon my bluntness 't is without malice I assure you but I am too much intent upon the Question to be choice of my vvords especially to you and consider a little You have told me the Spiritual and Civil Power are distinct that the Popes Power is Spiritual and is not Coactive Why Bellarmin and any that follows him will grant all this But if vve conclude thence That the Pope has nothing to do vvith Temporals they vvill not suffer us but say His Power is indeed of its own nature Spiritual and directly regards only the good of Souls but if Temporals concern that good His Power is extended to them too not directly as if they were its proper object but indirectly as they collaterally fall in and are joyn'd to that which is its proper object So that they intend not that any part of that Authority which I conceive prejudicial to Princes and inconsistent with Government should be taken from him but plainly seek to establish it though another vvay and whereas Others go plainly to work and tell us without more adoe That the Pope is the only Supream Monarch of the Earth These go a little about the bush and say indeed He is not directly Lord of Temporals but come at last to the same and tell us He may as uncontroulably dispose of them as if he were If this be true all you have said is to no purpose and all you can say while you stick to this will not absolve you from inconsistency with Civil Government For 't is a plain case If the Pope may interpose in the disposition of Temporals as often as they have relation to Spirituals that He may interpose alwaies Since of necessity they must and cannot but be alwaies ordered either well or ill and both cases belong to the concern of the Soul And then 't is all one as some body in this case handsomly said whether my eyes be put out by a direct stroke of a Tennis Ball or by Bricol William Rufus was as mortally wounded by the Arrow which glanced as if it had been shot directly at him If Princes may lawfully be depos'd and their Subjects absolv'd from their Allegiance and oblig'd to obey the commands of another and that in Temporals they are no longer Sovereign nor absolute even in Temporals and whether the Power above them be Direct or Indirect Spiritual or not Spiritual so it be a Power and can act they are alwaies unsafe Pray Friend let me have no dodging Tell me plainly Is this the Doctrine of your Church or is it not If it be unless you can shew me That those can be good Subjects and true to their Prince who acknowledge another Power which they are to obey against their Prince and how that Prince is Supream in Temporals who has another above him whose Commands he is to obey in the disposition of those Temporals or if he do not his Subjects are not to obey him I must for all you have said continue in my first thoughts and not believe you tolerable in any Commonwealth If it be not true I think you would deserve very well of your Church to free her from the scandal which the credit of those who hold this and the countenance she gives them brings upon her In all events I beseech you speak plainly for else I must needs think either that your Church teaches you to hold what you are asham'd to own or vvhich is
thought necessary Learned Men should be constrain'd by Oaths and fear of Penalties terribilibus comminationibus to declare their thoughts of this matter Possibly Interest may have had some share in this backwardness Men of this sort of Learning belong most to the Church and may peradventure consider that If they displease him who carries the Keys he may perhaps make use of them to shut the Gates of Ecclesiastical preferment Besides they have been diligent to discountenance and suppress all Books written against the Popes Power so that a Private man cannot write without the hazard of a Censure on his Book and possibly on his Person These I think are the true Reasons I am sure they are good ones of the backwardness which you phansie proceeds from a prohibition of the Church and with a great deal of injustice and no truth heighten into malice and the execrable hypocrisie of teaching two Religions one to be published the other conceal'd and I know not what when all this while I assure you there is no such thing as a Prohibition of the Church at least that I know of for any man to speak what he thinks what Fisher mentions was a private Order made amongst the Jesuites and concerns only themselves but wise men are not forward to speak what may turn to their prejudice nor quiet men to interpose in the concerns of higher and the Highest Powers as I conceive they are not therefore blameable However it be He who from the Sence of those who have vvrit would infer the Sence of all Learned Men concludes in my opinion very fallaciously Those who Write not and whose Sence we know not being much more Numerous and every jot as Learned as those who Write But to let that pass this Doctrine has found a different reception in the world The French as their natures are frank and open without more adoe plainly deny it and besides a great many reiterated Arrest of Parliament have solemnly condemn'd it in all their Universities In other Countries they are more reserv'd and rather oppose the Execution of the Power than the Power it self They let the Pope and any for him talk as they please but when it comes to Practice it alwaies proves unjust in that particular and I believe alwaies shall do In Brabant the Custom is That all Bulls are understood of course to be Subreptitious till they be approv'd by the Prince In other places they have other expedients but as far as I see by several means they all compass the same end and admit no more than they think stands with their Profit Only the French bluntly tell the Pope You cannot others use softer words but their Actions say You shall not farther than we think fit Now for the Opinion of the Canonists since Divines universally reject it I may without more adoe reject it with them Of the other it may be enquir'd Whether it be of Faith and Whether it be True which are very different Questions And for Faith I positively and freely disclaim it both because the Maintainers of it themselves confess it is not and though some are unwary enough to heighten it to that degree yet they are but few and their rashness is generally condemn'd as ill grounded and carried too far And besides I see the contrary is openly maintain'd by as numerous and considerable a Member as any belongs to the Catholic Church and while at Rome they condemn Withrington and Barklay at Paris they condemn Bellarmin and Suarez The Pope and the rest of the vvorld knows and sees this and yet Communicate freely with them and account them all the while good Catholics Which is plainly to acknowledge it is no point of Faith in which they differ for if it were they could no more Communicate with them than with Arrius or Pelagius neither is any consideration of their Power or concern of Policy able to justifie or dispense with acknowledging him a Catholic who persists to maintain an Heresie All the difficulty is Whether it be true or no. And who am I that I should undertake to dogmatize in an Age so Antidogmatical and where no vanity is thought greater than that of Dogmatizing and this in a Question which has exercised the Wit and Learning of Men esteem'd so great that to oppose them may chance be counted Arrogance The most I can do is to tell you what I think and what I think is even in my own judgment so inconsiderable that I think it a great deal better to play the Historian than the Disputer and hope you will be satisfied if I inform you as much as I know of this Question and relate the Arguments hitherto produc'd on both sides at least as far as I am acquainted with them and leave you to judge as you see cause By this means as you will have all the Information I can give you so none can rationally blame me for barely relating what every body either knows already or may know that will take the pains to look upon what is publickly and every where extant But before I begin the Arguments it will not be amiss to look a little into the Origin of this Dispute and consider when and how it came into the vvorld Gregory the VIIth was the first that brought it on the Stage Till his time the Independent Power of Princes was never questioned They not only quietly dispos'd of Civil matters without controll except where any notorious Injustice happened and then both Popes and other zealous Prelates took the liberty to reprehend and sometimes Excommunicate them but had no small share in Ecclesiastical matters so far as to make Laws concerning them to invest the Persons duly chosen to Benefices and confirm the Election even of Popes themselves which was not held valid without their approbation Take it in the words of Onuphrius no enemy to this Pope Onuph de var. Creat Rom. Pont. L. 4. Though formerly the Bishops of Rome were respected as the Heads of Christian Religion the Vicars of Christ and Successors of Peter yet their Authority extended no farther than either to assert or maintain the Doctrines of Faith For the rest they were subject to the Emperours all things were done by Their appointment Themselves were Created by them neither did the Pope dare to judge or determine any thing concerning them Gregory the VIIth was the First of all the Bishops of Rome who relying on the Arms of the Normans and Wealth of the Countess Mathildis a Woman of great Power in Italy and inflam'd by the discord of the Princes of Germany opprest with Civil Wars contemning contrary to the Custom of his Predecessours the Imperial Power and Authority after he had obtain'd the Pontificate durst not only Excommunicate but deprive the Emperour by whom he had been if not Elected at least Confirm'd of his Kingdom and Empire A thing to that Age unheard of for as for the Fables which go about of Arcadius and Anastius and Leo the
Iconoclast I value them not Thus then stood things in the vvorld when Hildebrand Archdeacon of the Church of Rome was chosen to the Papacy in the year 1083 and called Gregory the VIIth The Contests which in his daies began betwixt the Spiritual and Civil Power are the reason I suppose why he is so differently represented by those who vvrite of him His Enemies give him the Character of an Imperious Tyrannical and several waies Wicked Man his Friends on the other side praise him as much and affirm he was a man of great Prudence and Vertue and so far that it hath been attested by several Miracles And for my own part I must confess I incline to believe well of him For he had been the support of the Papacy during the time of several Popes his Parts and Industry having drawn upon him the greatest weight of all business and was so far from aspiring to that dignity that if Baronius say true He treated with the Emperour not to consent to his Election assuring him before hand that if he did He would be very severe against the Abuses practic'd in his Court. Besides if Sigonius may be believ'd and the passages he relates vvhich can hardly be read vvithout horrour the Emperour was a very Wicked Man but that which concerns this matter was That all Benefices were with all the Licentiousness of a depraved Court expos'd to sale and He that could Fee a Courtier was vvithout Merit or even Capacity possest of the most considerable Preferments of the Church As this vvas a mischief palpably destructive to all Goodness so 't is not incredible from the irregularity of a debauch'd Court. And if the Pope desir'd to have it remedied the end he propos'd was but what became him if the means had been so too I am the more inclin'd to believe this true because the Germans in a great measure took part with the Pope forct the Emperour to comply and after several Traverses at last took the Crown from him and plac'd it on his Son However it were the Emperour notwithstanding the Popes Remonstrances gives consent to the Election and confirms him and the Pope was as good as his word And first Excommunicates those who should receive Investitures of Benefices from Laymen afterwards the Laymen who should grant them and lastly provok'd by the Emperour who in a Synod at Wormes had forbidden Obedience to him Excommunicates and deposes the Emperour himself And this iâ— the first unquestionable Example of this kind which has appear'd in the Christian World Bellarmin indeed and his Followers would make us believe there are Examples more Ancient but in my opinion he proves them not well and you see Onuphrius counts them but Fables and those of that Age at least those vvho favoured the Emperour exclaim'd against it as a Novelty unheard of not to call it Heresie as one faies But though the thing were now done it appears not yet in vertue of what Power 't was done As that Age was not I think extraordinary subtle the distinctions of Direct and Indirect Power were not yet found out and the Pope himself speaks in common That the care of the Christian World and Authority to bind and loose was committed to him confiding in the Judgment and Mercy of God and Patronage of the B. Virgin and supported by the Authority of SS Peter and Paul c. but descends not to particulars So that it appears not whether he acted in vertue of a Spiritual or Temporal Power Directly or Indirectly and 't is likely he speculated not so far One thing is pretty remarkable in his second Sentence for he made two which ends in this manner After he had commanded all concerned to withdraw their Obedience from Henry and yield it to Rudolphus speaking as he does all along to the Apostles SS Peter and Paul You then See the words in Platina saies he most holy Princes of the Apostles confirm what I have said by your Authority that all men at last may understand if you can bind and loose in Heaven we likewise on Earth may give and take away Empires Kingdoms Principalities and whatever mortals can have Let Kings and all Princes of the World understand by his Example what you can do in Heaven and what power you have with God and hereafter fear to contemn the commands of the Holy Church And shew this Judgment upon Henry quickly that all Sons of Iniquity may perceive that he falls from his Kingdom not by chance but by your means This nevertheless I desire from you that by Repentance he may at your request find favour of our Lord at the day of Judgment For my part I cannot imagine but a man who speaks thus must needs mean uprightly and think at least he does well Notwithstanding the Apostles did not do as he desir'd them For this Rudulphus after he had fought twice upon equal terms with the Emperour was overthrown in the third Battle and so wounded in the right hand that he dy'd of it and dy'd full of Repentance and acknowledgment of his own fault and the Justice of God who had deservedly punisht him in that hand with which he had formerly sworn Fealty and Service to his Lord. So that though I believe the Pope thought himself much in the right yet the Court of Heaven thought not fit to grant his Request but ordered things quite contrary to his expectation and desire The next famous Example is of Frederic the IId a Prince of great Power and Parts who falling out with several Popes as resolute as himself after several breaches at several times made up and several Sentences publisht and recall'd and renew'd again was at last with the astonishment and horrour of all present saies M. Paris solemnly Excommunicated and depos'd in the Councel of Lions And this made both Princes and Prelates begin to look about them foreseeing that if this deposing Power should go on a slight Pretence might at last serve turn to unthrone perhaps an Innocent Man and bring the vvorld into confusion which possibly was the cause the Popes Sentence was not executed For this Frederic notwithstanding those proceedings kept the Empire till his death which happened long after But still I see not any ground to judge whether the Power were yet thought Direct or Indirect and in likelyhood People had in common a great Veneration for the Supream Pastour and his Decrees and thought them wicked men vvho submitted not to them but what kind of Power he had and hovv far it extended as far as I can perceive they little considered 'T is observable both in this Sentence and the former of Gregory VII that the Emperour is first Deposed and afterwards Excommunicated in aggravation as it were of the former Penalty The business was a little more discust in the Contests betwixt Boniface the VIIIth and Philip the Fair of France As this Pope is Recorded for a man of more mettle than Vertue his proceedings were
of the Learned Men who Write in favour of the Pope stick to that way As Bellarmin is the most famous amongst them and most at hand I choose his Arguments believing as he was a Man of great Reading he fail'd not to make use of all that was considerable in those who Writ before him and seeing those who Write since borrow most from him He has Five in his Book De Rom. Pont. and Four in his Answer to Barklay The First are Answered by Barklay and better by Withrington and every one who Writes of this Subject takes notice of them In Answering I make use chiefly of Withrington inserting only upon occasion what I find in others Only to indulge something to my fancy and ease it of the grievous pain of Transcribing I neither tie my self to the order nor preciseness of the Arguments but make entire Arguments of themselves what the Author meant sometimes a proof of some part of an Argument going before While you have the Substance I hope you will allow me a little Variety for my own ease Bellarmin then After he had taught against the Canonists That the Spiritual and Civil Power are in themselves distinct and have different Offices different Ends c. yet when these two meet together then he affirms they make but one Commonwealth in which the Spiritual Power is superiour to the Temporal For saies he there cannot be two Heads and therefore one Power must of necessity be subject to the other when they both Club into one Commonwealth But this they do where the Law of Christ is receiv'd For we being many are one Body in Christ Rom. 12. And in one Spirit we were all baptiz'd into one Body 1 Cor. 12. And because the Members of the same Body must depend one of another and Spirituals cannot be said to depend on Temporals Temporals must depend on Spirituals and be subject to them To this they Answer differently Some granting the Spiritual and Temporal Power make but one Commonwealth affirm the Members independent one of another as the Hand depends not on the Foot nor the Foot on the hand but each free and absolute in their proper Functions are subject only to the Supream Head Christ Others in my opinion more rationally deny the Two Powers club into one Commonwealth and say The Spiritual makes one and the Temporal another and to many others as there are Independent Heads of this Power That the same men in different respects make both these Bodies and that as Clergy and Laity and all not excepting the Prince himself in as much as they are Faithful are subject to the Spiritual Power according to the nature of Spiritual Subjection so the same Laity and Clergy not excepting the Pope himself in as much as they are Citizens and parts of the Temporal Commonwealth are subject to the Temporal Power that is for as much as concerns the Law of God purely and abstracting from Humane Constitutions and such Changes as time has brought into the World For now the Pope is himself an absolute Prince and other Clergy Men have Priviledges and Immunities justly belonging to them When therefore 't is assumed that the Church is one Body they distinguish this word Church and say if it be taken Formally that is the Faithful under the notion of Faithful then indeed they make but one Body but neither doth this Body include both Powers for 't is only the Spiritual to which they are subject as Faithful as Citizens they belong to the Temporal But if the word Church be taken Materially for the Men which make up the Church an Acception something improper but yet such as comprehends both Powers then say they In this sence the Church is not one Body but two or if you vvill twenty as many as there are several Supream Temporal Powers in Christendom One Spiritual in relation to the Spiritual Power and which is properly the Church The rest Temporal in relation to their several Temporal Heads And this Answer as it seems fair in it self and justified by the sence and apprehension of Mankind for France and Spain for example both acknowledge the Pope and are both parts of the Church and that one Body of which the Apostle speaks but he that should therefore think them not to be Two distinct Bodies and Independent Common-wealths would be thought something extravagant so 't is a little more strongly inforc'd against Bellarmin by other parts of his own Doctrine For he teaches elsewhere That Church-men besides that they are Church-men are also Citizens and parts of the Civil Common-wealth and that all Members of every Body must be subject to their respective Head That the Civil and Spiritual Power are in their nature distinct Powers and have distinct Offices and Ends c. and that Christ did distinguish the Dignities and Offices of Pope and Emperour that one should not presume upon the Rights of the other That Christian Princes as well as Infidels acknowledge no Superiour in Temporals since Christ took not away the Rights of any and a King by becoming a Christian loses no Right he had before and the like Besides this Answer seems wonderfully strengthned by some Authorities mentioned in the former Letters Such as Gelasius to the Emperour Anastasius The Prelates of the Church owe you all Obedience And again The Bishops themselves are to obey your Laws and that because there are Two principal Powers by which the World is Governed the Sacred Authority of Bishops and Regal Power Likewise Pope Anastasius to the same Emperour Bishops are subject to the Laws of the Prince in what concerns Public Discipline and Princes to Bishops in the dispensation of the Mysteries and Sacraments according to the famous Canon of Leo the IV. Nos si incompetenter It is to be noted that there are Two Persons by which this world is governed The Regal and Sacerdotal as Kings are Chief in Worldly so Priests in Divine matters Therefore David though by his Regal Vnction he were over Priests and Prophets in affairs of the World yet was under them in those of God Much more might be alledged on this Subject but this I conceive is enough to shew the Answer given to Bellarmin has the support of Authority as well as Reason A Second Argument is from the ends of both Powers whereof one being Eternal the other Temporal happiness because the Eternal happiness is the Supream and Last end of all things Temporal happiness must be subordinate to it And because according to Aristotle where the Ends are subordinate the Faculties likewise are subordinate the Civil Power which aims only at Temporal happiness must be subordinate and subject to the Spiritual which looks after Eternal This Argument they Answer likewise two waies First by granting the whole which they say concludes nothing against them For admitting the Temporal Power to be subordinate to the Spiritual nothing follows more than than 't is under the other according to the Order which the other
especially since many Doctors thought so as well as he For 't is one thing saies he in Tortus to bring Examples of Kings saies he of Popes say they and another to prove their Power and Authority Secondly They Answer that if it be a good Proof that a thing may lawfully be done which has been done before the Wickedest things in the world may be prov'd Lawful People may lawfully Rebel Public and Private Faith may be broken Commonwealths may be overturn'd c. for all these things have been done And without more adoe Popes may be Depos'd by Emperours as well as they by Popes for that has been done too Lastly and with a little more smartness They say this way of Proof plainly begs the Question and assumes the very Point in Dispute Bellarmin affirms and his Adversaries deny the Pope may justly Depose Princes now to Argue He has Depos'd them therefore He justly may assumes That what he has done is Just which is the very Point they Contest with him and therefore think it had been something shorter and altogether as much to purpose to have said 'T is Just because 't is Just. Every body knows Popes have both challenged and used a Deposing Power but every body is not satisfied that this Power is justly due to him Bellarmin undertakes to prove it is and brings for an Argument That he has us'd it which no body denies and would have that conclude That therefore he justly may which if his Adversaries had thought a good consequence they had not put him to the trouble of making it For they knew and acknowledged the Antecedent enough before But they think the Popes did amiss who did so and if barely saying that they did the thing be proving they had right to do it they confess they are in the wrong but if it be not Bellarmin is so and should have considered that barely to say his Tenet over is a kind of Proof which takes with none but very good natur'd People and as far as I see his Adversaries are a little more stubborn I am so weary with long Writing that I must intreat your permission to refer what remains to another opportunity I will hope I have said enough to quiet your suspicions and am sure I have said so much that I need some quiet my self and must take leave after so long a Journey to rest a while Your c. The Ninth and Tenth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1674. FRIEND I Expect that which you say remains with much impatience and t is only to tell you so that I now write for I do not intend to give you my thoughts of your last till I receive your next Only let me tell you it wambles in my stomack I know not how and works not kindly but because your next possibly may fully settle me I will not yet complain But methinks this next opportunity of yours is long a coming Have you been sick or diverted with business of greater consequence then clearing your self and your Church from an aspersion of which I take no joy to tell you the suspicions are more pregnant than I wish they were For 't is undeniable that Tenets inconsistent with Government are maintained among you You say they belong not to Religion and that indeed is something but not enough This may serve in some measure to justify your Religion but nothing at all to clear your selves For what matter is it whether your Religion be innocent if all that profess it are guilty though upon another account If you think these Tenets true you will be apt to practise them at one time or other although they do not belong to Religion Religion indeed is the strongest Principle of action but not the only one It is no part of Religion that two and three make five but yet if you do think to pay a debt of five pounds with twice forty shillings no body will deal with you And if all the Papists in England adhere to these Doctrines whether this adhesion of theirs proceed from Religion or any other motion the men will be unsafe and irreconcileable to the security of their Country let the Religion be what it will But if there be any who think them false it were convenient both for the satisfaction of their Prince and Fellow subjects and the interest of the thinkers People should know who those any are We cannot know your thoughts unless you acquaint us with them And because we have reason to believe that some do hold them and no reason to believe of any particular man but he is of the number till he disclaim them what can we do but involve you all guilty and innocent if there be any such in the same condemnation of diffidence You tell me the French plainly and openly condemn them The honester men they and the more shame for some body that there should be more honesty found in France then England You should do as they do though t' were but to be in the mode In all their airy toys their Feathers their Perukes their Pantaloons you can follow them fast enough But when they play the men and set you examples of prais-worthy actions there you are content to be out of fashion as if it were an honor to be as light as they and a shame to be as wise But pray what security is it to England that they are good subjects in France If they were knaves all over the rest of the world and we all honest at home it were a great deal better for us than that they should be honest abroad and we knaves at home I perceive indeed by what they do that you tell me true when you say these Tenets are no points of your Faith But then methinks you should have the less difficulty to disclaim them Unless perhaps you think them true which if you do either make them out to be consistent with goverment or you will not be consistent your self I tell you plainly I shall think ill of you if you think well of these Doctrâ—nes unless you can shew them innocent and safe which as far as I perceive you do not go about to do and when you offer at it may I believe with as much hope of success offer at the Philosophers stone In other Countrys you tell me They are more reserved and will not say you can not but you shall not And I believe you have liv'd in those other Countrys and suck't their Polities with their Air. But for my part I must confess I am for the mode once in my life and would be of the French fashion in this
that business none was better satisfi'd then the guilty and punisht Emperor himself who more lov'd and honour'd S. Ambrose ever after And 't is likely if all spiritual Princes would imitate the zeal of that excellent Prelate and preserving the respect due to the dignity of secular powers strive only to redress the errors of their frailty that Temporal Princes would imitate the Piety of that excellent Emperor and there would be never any clashing betwixt them But this by the by I have only to do with the Argument and 't is not the least I have to do to find the force of it For 't is plain the bare words themselves without a comment will not do and Bellarmin has here forgotten to give a comment And so there remains nothing but to rove at random and hope if luck serve to hit right If Bellarmin understand this Decree in that manner in which he understood it who made it Boniface the 8 as far as can be gathered by those who writ of him was perswaded he was vested in a Power as unlimited and absolute as the wildest of Canonists ever fancied that he was the only universal Monarch and all Princes his subjects without more ado You remember how he writes to the King of France We would have you know you are subject to us both in spirituals and temporals and take for Hereticks who think otherwise Now there is one in my opinion very good reason why Bellarmin should not understand the Decree in this manner and that is because he thinks that sence not true and maintains the Pope has no such power and the Canonists are out who give it him If he will understand it as Clement 5 seems to understand it you must pardon me if I entertein you with seemings we must rove where we can do no better it will amount to no more than bare spiritual power as indeed the words themselves carry no farther We neither will nor intend says he that any prejudice be done to the King or Kingdom of France by the Decree in question nor that the King Kingdom or Inhabitants be more subject to the Church of Rome then they were formerly but that all things be in the same state in which they were before the said definition Now one point of the state in which things were before was if we believe the King of France as also Innocent 3 who had declared as much that he was subject in temporals to no man And so there remains only subjection in spirituals in which Clement 5 understood the Decree and challenged to the Church of Rome and this will freely be allow'd to Bellarmin by a great many who for all that will allow no deposition Now because neither of these Comments will fit him as far as I perceive he will hardly find one ready made but must take the pains to make one for himself if he will do any thing And yet when he has done a Comment is one thing and a Text another One is not altogether so current mony as the other Although in this particular his comment must be better mettal then the Text it self or will hardly pass The whole Canon Law the Decrees not only of particular Popes but particular Councils unless in circumstances which happen not in this case are freely and openly deny'd the power to oblige to belief But I will not meddle with this point which would draw on a new and that controversial dispute and I am no man of Controversy What I have sayd is answer enough to an Argument no better prest Yet I shall make one observation more and so take leave of it This Canon according to the declaration of Clement 5 defined nothing new says Bellarmin but only declared the ancient obligation of being subject to the Apostolick Sea Now would I fain understand how we should know by this Canon what that ancient obligation was The question is whether the ancient subjection were in temporals or spirituals And the Canon is declared to define neither the one nor the other but only the ancient obligation and if it define nothing in the question it might very well have been let alone of necessity we must know what this ancient obligation is before we can know what this Canon has defined and then 't is a clear case we can know nothing by the Canon but must depend on another knowledg and by that find out what the Canon sayes If things be left by this Canon as the Pope says they are in the state in which they were before it is not possible to know how this Canon left them but by knowing how they were before See now how well this Canon proves in the Pope a power over temporals which says no more but that he has a power he alwaies had but whether that power be temporal or spiritual is wholly silent 'T is something a new way of arguing to bring us in proof that things are as Bellarmin says they are a Canon which says only they are as they were before and force us to a new search to know how they were before of which we have no intelligence from his Canon but as far as we can have intelligence otherwise have reason to think they were quite contrary to what Bellarmin pretends For the French who took themselves particularly concern'd in this Canon did neither then nor since believe any obligation to be subject in temporals and were unsatisfied till they procur'd this Declaration from Clement 5 that things were as they were before and because this satisfied them 't is in my opinion a strong proof that it was then known there was no subjection in temporals due before However it be the proof from the Canon stands plainly thus You must in vertue of this Canon believe the Pope has power over Temporals because he has a power which by the Canon you cannot know whether it be over temporals or no Or you must know by the Canon the Pope has a temporal Power which whether it be temporal or no you must know from something else then the Canon That is I must know in vertue of the Canon what I cannot know in vertue of the Canon Which proof being that in vertue whereof I know signifies the Canon is a proof which is not a proof The third Argument is from Councils and is thus proposed by Bellarmin We prove it thirdly from the Councils before mentioned whereof the two last were general For how can that be brought into doubt or depend on the opinion of men which general Catholick and lawful Councils approve But these ten Councils and especially the two last of Lateran and Lyons do most evidently teach that temporal Princes may be depos'd by the Pope when the necessity of the Church requires it and consequently that the temporal Power of Princes is subject and subordinate to the spiritual power of Popes In my opinion he might have spared that consequently If lawful general Councils evidently teach Deposition they
teach enough of all conscience we know well enough what will follow without the help of his inferences and know that twenty worse things will follow then subordination of powers But is Bellarmin in earnest too and will he reduce the Catholick Church to the narrow compass of those who believe his Doctrine How Lawful general Concils teach and that evidently that Princes may be deposed Why what a hand has he made on 't His Friends Coton Sonran and the rest of the Jesuites who by a publick declaration disavow'd and detested this doctrine were no very honest men by his reckoning The French are all direct Hereticks without more ado and I fear it will go hard with the Pope himself who so freely and openly communicates with them As for my small acquaintance they are all in as bad a case as Falstaffs old Hosts if sack be a sin They 'l be mall'd to my knowledg If he do not make amends with the weakness of his proofs for the confidence of his assertions we are all undone But the comfort is that all Catholicks are not of his mind For this very Book had the luck to light into a certain Catholick Country where it was publickly condemn'd and the men who did it did not for all that think they contradicted any thing evidently taught by lawful general Councils But let us see what those Councils say The truth is since of ten which he cites 2 only are general 8 might have been spared For particular Councils according to his own doctrine are not so irrefragible but what they determine may be brought into doubt But we must take his Arguments as they are His first Council is 900 years old under Greg. 2. wherein he would make us believe the Emperor Leo Isaurus was excommunicated and depriv'd of the tributes which he us'd to receive out of Italy And this is one of the stories which Onuphrius takes for fables Bellarmin alledges for proof for the Council is not extant the testimony of Zonaras a Greek Historian whose words are these Gregory who at that time ruled the Church of old Rome involved them together with the Emperor in a synodical Anathema and making a league with the French forbad the tributes which till that time were paid from thence to the Empire Barclay answers that he mistook the meaning of Zonaras thinking that those 2 several things because they are joyned in one period hapned therefore at the same time 'T is true that either this Pope or his Successor Greg. 3 did in a Synod excommunicate not the Emperor particularly but Iconoclasts in general 'T is true that Greg. 3. made a league with the French or rather fled to their protection from the injuries of the Lombards from which the Emperor either could or perhaps would not defend him And therefore Writers who say that after this league Italy withheld their usual Tributes though the matter of fact be not altogether so clear but none say they withheld them by the authority of any Council As far as can be gathered the exasperated people were willing to keep their mony for their own defence and not by sending it into Greece expose themselves defenceless to those injuries which they either suffered or feared And thus far there is mention of the Pope's consent and even countenance at last for he opposed the sway of the people a good while and by his authority preserv'd them in their allegeance to the Emperor yet sided with them at long run in this keeping their mony at home But for deposing the Emperor much less in a Synod neither he nor any body else thought of it on the contrary to his dying day he acknowledged him his Emperor and Lord. Whether the People or he did well in doing so much as they did is another question which belongs not to me to determin But I suppose it is no wonderful thing that a remote Province of a great Empire should upon some dissatisfaction fail at some time in their duty and the men of greatest Authority among them joyn with them This is standing upon their terms more then becomes subjects but 't is not deposing and much less deposing by the Authority of those great men who take their part One might as well say the Prince of Orange by his Authority deposed the King of Spain from the Low Countries because he was the Principal Actor with those who fell from him But to make short work with our case there was in it I think no deposition at all But if this Tribute matter must be called deposition to that concur'd no Council and betwixt them both 't is plain there is no Argument There comes next in play the famous business of Greg. 7 which takes up 6 Councils more These because they belong all to one subject you shall give me leave to respit till I have rid my hands of his next Council which belongs to another 'T is the Council of Clerment where he says Vrban 2. excommunicated and deposed Philip. 1. of France for casting off his lawful Wife marrying an Adulteress and refusing upon admonition to make satisfaction For this he cites M. Paris and Sigebert I have not seen Sigebert but M. Paris who particularizes the Acts of the Council and among the rest this excommunication makes no mention of deposing I but sayes Bellarmin deposition must be understood to go along with excommunication Marry I thank him heartily Vnderstood quotha Is our evident teaching come to understanding and understanding those things to be the same than which the world has none more different Excommunication is a pure spiritual censure and deprives a man of none but pure spiritual goods deposition is quite contrary and takes away only temporal It passes my understanding how one of these must necessarily follow out of the other Pray why must we understand it does Because says he Historians testify the Pope forbad the Crown should be set upon the Kings head while he remain'd excommunicate and in particular Ivo Bishop of Chartres writes to the Pope that he would be threatned unless he restored the Crown and took off the excommunication that the King and Kingdom would fall off from their obedience Very well Why then according to Ivo there was a King still and that King had a Kingdom and so much credit in it that 't was not impossible but he might cause it to revolt These things do not hang together A man may as soon understand how excommunication and deposition infer one another as how a Crown can be restor'd to one who is a King and has a Kingdom or how the Pope should forbid the Crown to be set on his head who had been crowned long before the Pope was Pope 'T is hard and not very wise to forbid things that are past If this mystery had not been unridled for me I had been quite at a loss But if I may believe Barclay and Withrington it was at that time the custom of France for the King
case in any Age nor ever thought of by any of his Councils save only that of Lateran To fancy them all into one Council is well enough but to fancy them doing there what when they are assembled in reality they dreamt not of has something too much of fancy Then this favouring of Hereticks is a term so general that I know not how far it extends but I think Princes make alliances as they are guided by interest of State and amuse not themselves with these speculations of Schoolmen The French never bogled to make leagues with Princes of different Religions which though it has been sometimes cast in their dish they left not for all that to do what they thought fitting 'T is now come about and the House of Austria does what heretofore they blam'd in the French and the Pope is much bely'd if he quarrel with them for it It is not much more boldness and rashness to stand upon our terms with his Councils being such as they are then to condemn to excommunication and deposition such as are capable of it all this part of the world For sure Representatives are not so much more considerable than the Bodies themselves But I rove as well as Bellarmin Before I speak to the to the Council it will not be amiss to observe that the case of the German Emperors has something not common with other absolute Princes and the cases of Frederic 2 and Henry 4 something not common with other Emperors For 't is well observ'd by John Barclay that since the translation of the Empire to the West at least since the devolution from the posterity of Charles the Great to the Germans Popes have pretended a particular superiority over those Emperors Clem. 5. Clementina Vinc. de Jurejur Adrian Ep. ad Fred. 7. One of them in a certain Canon will needs have the Oath which Emperors take at their Coronation to be properly an Oath of Fidelity Another taxes the Emperor of insolence and arrogance for setting his name before the Popes as being contrary to the fidelity promist and sworn to S. Peter himself In consequence whereof there are who maintain the Pope may depose the Emperor for this reason because he acknowledges his Temporalties from the Pope and in plain terms that the Empire and Emperor are subject to the Pope I have nothing to do with the justice of this pretence let the Germans look to that who I suppose are not all of the same opinion but 't is manifest Popes have made this claim and if they act in consequence of what they publickly maintain and treat as subjects those whom they took to be so and deal with them as supream Lords with their Inferiors and Vassals as it is not to be wondred at so the case is quite different from that of absolute Princes over whom there is no pretence of superiority Again this Frederick had positively sworn by Embassadors particularly authoriz'd to stand to the Judgment of the Pope and Church Henry 4. had done as much in person at Canossa upon the recalling of his first sentence How far this submission of theirs subjected those two Emperors to the censures of the Church at least how far it might be thought to subject them I cannot say But certainly such an obligation makes their condition different from those who never entred into such bonds It will not be amiss likewise to reflect a little upon the temper of those times As far as I can get a Prospect of them they were less critical then ours and more led by nature than speculation When a mischief hapned they thought 't was fit there should be a remedy and as drowning men think not of the trespass and whether the twig they catch at grow on their neighbours ground if the temporal Power wrong'd them had recourse to the spiritual and if the spiritual to the temporal So the Emperor Otho was sollicited to relieve them against John 12 and did so causing him to be depos'd and a better chosen in his room And every body thought he did well even Bellarmin himself though withal he thinks the action not so regular because that Pope was a very wicked man Besides the Pope was believ'd the Father and Head of all Christians and upon that account obedience due to him from all How far and to what kind of actions this obedience extended they seem to have so little considered that Greg. 7. himself answers those who were not satisfi'd with his hasty sentence Plat. in Greg. 7. as if it were all one to have power over all and to have all Power It was this Council of Lyons which made men begin to look about them and consider the matter more deeply For then says M. Paris both Princes and prelates foreseeing the consequences were exceedingly troubled For though Frederick himself did many ways deserve to be lessened and depriv'd of all honor yet to be depos'd by Papal authority would raise the Church of Rome to that height and pride that abusing the Grace of God they might fall to deposing even innocent and good Princes and sooner Prelates and this for slight causes or at least threaten to depose them c. But whatever they thought afterwards when they reflected the Pope was a man as well as his Neighbours and might abuse an unlimited power at the Council of Lyons I conceive they were more intent to consider who had right of his side then with what kind of penalty they were impour'd to chastise the wrong The Emperors Agents were heard and notwithstanding all they could say in his behalf and they spoke freely enough He was in the opinion of the whole Council manifestly guilty Even those who favour'd him at first confest he deserv'd to be depos'd And if the rest thought no injustice done him who had but what he deserved I think the wonder is not great However it be to answer more directly divers things they say They question the concurrence of the Council and think Bellarmin a little more confident then became him to talk of the approbation and consent and praise of the whole Council when the Decree is so far from authorizing his confidence that on the contrary it affords just suspicion of the contrary For whereas the usual stile of conciliar Acts and elsewhere us'd even in this very Council runs in this manner sacro approbante Concilio 't is changed here into this sacro praesente Concilio which they think not done without a particular reason Again Historians mention the horror and astonishment of the by-standers at the pronouncing the sentence effects not likely to proceed from an Act of their own In fine several exceptions they take But the best answer in my opinion is afforded by Bellarmin himself He teaches elsewhere that in Councils the greatest part of the Acts belong not to Faith Lib. 2. de Concil c. 12. neither Disputations nor Reasons nor Explications but the bare Decrees themselves and those not all but
not one has been kill'd by any Pope or his command Even Antipopes themselves their greatest enemyes have found not only safety but gentle and favourable usage from them when they have faln into their hands This they amplyfy and dress as handsomly as they can but methinks after all t is but a sorry dish For sure t is no God-a-mercy to the opinion that Popes have been better men then It would have made them On the contrary since they were therefore good men because they did not do what the opinion allows what must the opinion be which if they had follow'd they had not been good men That they did not do ill they owe to their own vertue but that they might have done ill makes the opinion naught At least I conceive so and had I been in their place would rather have given no answer then such a one For another inconvenience he urges that Princes may be deposed and murthered for any crime which in the judgement of the Pope deserves it if he sell a Bishoprick plunder a Church fall into any sort of wickedness nay if he live not according as his state and condition requires To this last they except as a wresting of Bellarmins words beyond his intention but for the rest reply again that 't is another odious amplification and that it may be understood for what causes Princes may be depos'd by the sentences against Hen. 4. and Fred. 2. In general that the causes must be very weighty and such that the punishment be to edification not destruction I must acknowledge my dulness and that I comprehend not the force of this answer To my apprehension by the sentences against these two Emperors can be known no more then the reason why these two Emperors were deposed from whence it may be gathered that for the same faults a Prince may become liable to the same punishment but whether there be any other deposing faults and which they be cannot I think be understood by them Then again these weighty and to edification-causes may for any thing they say to the contrary be any which the Pope judges such Now this is that which VVithrington objects and I had thought that to say the same with my Adversary had not been to answer him The third Inconvenience is that not only the Pope but every Bishop may depose by this doctrine and with a little more stretching perhaps every Curate too where the Prince belongs to their Diocess or Parish And this he justifies by an argument of Bellarmins against the Canonists which he puts thus If the Pope be the supreme Lord of the whole Christian world every Bishop is Lord of the Towns subject to his Bishoprick for what the Pope is in the universal Church every Bishop is in his own Diocess They reply that by this argument it may perhaps be concluded that a Bishop may excommunicate a Prince as well as the Pope but not depose him because though he be in his Diocess what the Pope is in the Church as much as amounts to being truly a Pastor and truly a spiritual Prince not a Vicar or temporary Delegate yet the Pope has more power over the whole then a Bishop over his particular For which reason deposition was reserv'd to the Pope in the Council of Lateran VVherefore Bellarmins Argument is good and Withringtons naught He who undertakes the defence of another must stand to it that his man is still in the right but otherwise I see not why one argument should be thought good and the other bad If the Pope be a temporal Prince the Bishop is a temporal Prince says Bellarmin because he is in his part what the Pope is in the whole this is good says Schulkenius If the Pope be a virtually temporal Prince the Bishop is a virtually temporal Prince says VVithrington and for the same reason how comes this to be bad because says Schulkenius the Pope has more power over the whole then the Bishop over his particular This belongs to Bishop-craft which I understand not but if it be true first Bellarmins argument is as bad as VVithringtons for it may be reply'd to it that it does not follow the Bishop is a temporal Prince though the Pope be because though the Bishop be no Vicar yet he has not the power which the Pope has And then again though the Pope be a greater virtually temporal Prince then the Bishop yet the Bishop is a virtually temporal Prince too and may proceed beyond excommunication and spiritual jurisdiction and set his hand to temporals For if spiritual power be virtually temporal and the Bishop have it and this in his own right as well as the Pope not by way of delegation I hope he may use what he has and dispose of temporal things in order to spiritual good And where shall this stop To mention as he does reservations is to grant that it belongs to the nature of the power though the extent of it were afterwards confin'd by consent Besides reservations are temporary and changeable things and what is reserv'd to day may not be so to morrow However if the greater virtually temporal Prince may depose Kings sure the lesser may depose private men for this temporal vertue must be able to do something in Temporals And thus much is inconvenience enough in conscience though I see not well how he avoids the other Were I to answer Sculkenius I should except against his understanding the Samenes which Bellarmin puts in Pope and Bishop of being both spiritual Princes not Vicars which I verily think is to make Bellarmin say what he never dreamt of or if he did was quite from his purpose But that is not my business I am only to observe how matters stand which are as you see In the last place Withrington urges that this supream power over temporals delivered in such general and unlimited terms not determining how great or what kind of spiritual good that must be in order to which Deposition is lawful seems a just occasion of perpetual suspicion and jealousy in Princes and apt to disturb the publick quiet c. They answer Christ may as justly be reprehended for delivering the spiritual power in general terms as Commonwealths for submitting in general to obedience of Princes whom they create Whereof I take neither to be true for Commonwealths have things call'd Laws and Customs by which doubts rising from general expressions are explained And for the general expression in the Gospel whatever you shall bind c. I hope he will not perswade us but as general as it sounds to us it was very particularly understood by the Apostles And as they understood it so they practis'd and so they taught and among other things subjection to Princes notwithstanding the amplitude of that Commission But if both were true still the inconvenience remains for ought I can see since whatever be the reason of the general terms us'd in the Gospel and elsewhere it abates
the rest these are florishes on both sides The matter rests upon this issue which of the two has the best reasons and he that has will carry it T is time for me to leave it with you to stand for the Plaintiff or Defendant as you see cause and ease my self of this ungrateful labour You see what is said on both sides To tell you what the world thinks of their sayings is not so easy The world is a politick world they let the hot men write and wrangle and for themselves hear all and see all and say nothing The truth is while one side talks of Treason and the other of Sacrilege t is good to be wary T is not for private men to make an enemy either of Pope or Prince and as the case stands you cannot say I or No without displeasing one I must confess I am very sorry you would not let me play the Policitian for company Your importunity has drawn me into the list of those fools who disquiet themselves to please other folks and take a great deal of pains to be talk't on twenty to one very scurvily The quarrel is betwixt supream Powers and they best know what to do in their own concerns I fear t is little better then sawcines for men of our form to interpose in things so far above us and perhaps madness to thrust in bewixt two stones and be crusht in pieces I see this yet cannot avoid whether the charms of your Friendship or violence of your importunity T is true I have endeavoured to touch this tender matter as tenderly as I could What I profest at first I repeat again I do not dogmatize but relate and am sure you have no reason to be displeased that I would displease as few as I could This is the reason since you will needs have it why I beat about the bush and do not shoot my fools-bolt directly at the mark I do not take the satisfaction of your curiosity to import me so much as living quietly T is for Princes to resolve on the Can not or Shall not or what else they think fit Private men till they be commanded to declare them do best to keep their thoughts to themselves This I can assure you that though for these reasons I do not desire every body should know them I have none in this matter which do not become a good Christian and a good subject and Your faithful friend c. The Eleventh and Twelfth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1674. FRIEND OF all I have seen or heard you shall have it for Policy Sir Wood-bee himself is no body to you The sum of what I askt was in two words Are you a good Subject And the sum of your Answer is Betwixt you and me I would have it thought so but make no words on 't private men must not meddle with things above them Here 's Ragion di stato for you Things above them Why is Honesty among you lookt upon as a thing out of reach Are you of kin to the Muscovite who being askt of his Faith in God and hopes of Salvation reply'd They were things above him which he should be glad were true but could not think so great a Majesty could ever think of so poor a man Is it above you to be a good Subject and a thing which you dare not confess for modesty sake and the imputation of sawciness Are things carried so among you that you must needs live unquietly if your Neighbours know you deserve to live quietly Is it become a piece of interest and policy to be ill thought of and if there be an honest man among you must he by all means make a secret on 't for fear of exasperating Supream Powers and thrusting in betwixt two stones How have I been mistaken I took you for a plain dealing man and you are the very Pink of Policy But for meer shame I could find in my heart to quarrel with you and cannot for my life but tell you you have taken a great deal of pains to little purpose Pray permit me to revenge your nicety by unmannerly bluntness and to carry it to the uttermost ask you how far you are from Pedius in the Satyr Fur es ait â—edio Pedius quid crimina rasis Librat in Antithetis The question being of robbing no less than Soveraigns Are you a good Subject is but in less homely Terms Are you a Thief And your Answers are as like as the Questions Only Pedius was for Rhetorick and you for History Some say this and some say that which is all you tell me is but Historical Antithesis You tell me I may judge as I please I know I may and I do judge as all men of judgment do But pray remember those that do not plead directly Guilty or not Guilty cast themselves Had I only desir'd to know what people say it had been no such hard matter to have got Books and read them my self and never troubled you I know the Arguments well enough and I know what to think of them but I know not what to think of you whom a man that were not as I am very favourably inclin'd would be apt to suspect you think something which you are asham'd to own No Friend You scape not so I would and if you be not very obstinate will know what you are and whether those of your Religion may be trusted If you believe what is publickly written and own'd by some among you you are not if you believe it not but yet will not disown it as honest as you are in your heart since no body can tell but you are a knave how can you expect but to pass for one among the rest Either deal frankly with me or I must with you and tell you 't is Guilt that fears the light If you continue still to make a secret of what of all the world it most concerns those of your Perswasion to publish both for your own interest and honour of your selves and Church he must be a very good natur'd man who will think well of you who make dainty to shew why he should do so You are charg'd with inconsistence with Civil Government You faintly deny it and say you are traduc't but are shy to justifie your Innocence your Church it self is call'd in question where the Books are licenc't the Authors cherisht and the Doctrines put in practice You tamely hear all this and would have us think your Church a good Church for all that a pure unblemish't Church but if we will not of our selves kindly turn away our eyes and
of the Canonists opinion which made you disclaim it but because that wickedness came clad in sence and people could understand it But the same wickedness disguis'd in non-sence is a Darling So that your Pique was not to the wicked but the sence make it but non-sensical enough and let it be never so wicked you are for it I bar Sophistry too and unintelligible Subtleties Let your Schollers keep their riddle me riddle me to themselves I shall understand the Talmud as soon as what you call Terms of Art meaning I suppose the Art of keeping things from being understood The Art of talking so that no body shall know whether you say I or No. But I understand what 't is to Command and Obey And to bring the whole to a short plain Issue I ask If it should happen the Pope should command you to disobey your King and the King command you to disobey the Pope by whom will you stand And I expect an Answer as plain as my Question I declare too because I will not turn our dispute into a controversie of Religion nor meddle with the Popes Spiritual power that I mean only of Temporal commands of such commands wherein you have no reason nor doubt but you ought obey the King but only because the Pope commands the contrary Give me a direct Answer to this for I tell you I bar Indirects and the business is done If you will obey your King you are an honest man and have disclaim'd Bellarmin as well as the Canonists If the Pope you must make out if you can how he is a good Subject who refuses to obey his Prince The business being now in a very narrow compass and perceptible by every body there I leave it with this Advertisement that upon your Answer depend the thoughts I shall have of your Church or if you will men of your Church According as you Answer I or No I shall believe you consistent or not consistent with Government There I began and there I end I hope you will give me no occasion to chang my thoughts of you for truly 't would grieve me if I could not with as much satisfaction to my Judgment as Inclination own the title of Your c. FRIEND ME thinks you deal roughly for a Friend If I were as brisk as you here would be brave doings What a bustle do you keep with me with Bellarmine and the Church and all because I desir'd to keep my thoughts to my self Truly I thought silence no such hainous crime I have known many repent of speaking but few of holding their tongues But for my self you may deal as you please twenty to one but I may at some time or other find occasion to cry quittance with you and then I expect you should allow me the liberty you take But Bellarmine what harm his he done you to incur your indignation so highly Is he the only man who maintains the Indirect Power And if he were can you not disprove him fairly and let your bitterness alone The Church too Pray what is she concern'd whether I do as you would have me or no Can no Member of her Communion displease you but she presently must be brought in She is this and she is that if I do not what I have no mind and for all your earnestness I fear no reason to do But you have got an eye of me and you follow it You know I value the Church above my self and that I will never agree she should be ill thought of if I can help it Indeed I was in hope to have cut the Thread and answered so as might please you and displease no body else But since 't will not be and that there is no way to clear her from those blemishes which your capricious Jealousie has cast upon her but by forcing my own inclinations I think my self oblig'd rather to expose my self to other mens censures then leave her expos'd to yours If any man dislike my resolution I entreat him for one moment to make my case his own and consider what he would do so loudly and so smartly challenged and what duty requires he should do when on the one side the Churches reputation is at stake on the other the quiet it may be credit of particulars If he doubt which side to take I must needs think he has less respect for his mother then becomes a good child For my part I am perswaded otherwise Well! But you will not be satisfi'd unless I speak plainly Would I knew whether you will be satisfi'd if I do For I tell you truly I begin to be as jealous of your earnestness as you of my reservedness If reason would have satisfi'd you I think you might have been satisfi'd before this time However I will venture to make one experiment more and try what I can do with you by and by If you be in earnest and that plain dealing will do it I shall prevail at last For I will tell you and that very plainly more then you ask You shall know not only what I think but why I have been thus backward to tell you what I think I will frankly discover all my policy which makes you so merry peradventure to be as much laught at for my simplicity but however you shall have no cause of jealousie of what I harbour in my breast when you know all I harbour there But do not think I mean to be so merry as you are I am in no such pleasant humour and think the matter a little too serious If you had spared some of your mirth I believe 't would have been ne'r a whit the worse The meat might have been altogether as good if the sauce had been less tart But to our business You are still harping upon the Church A worm of Jealousie is crept in and will not out You are still suspicious she forbids people from dealing freely in these matters I told you there was no such thing and I tell you so again at least that I know and I tell you besides That had there been such a thing and I known it I would have dealt as sincerely with you as Fisher with King James told you so at first and never medled so much as I have done But if you will know the true cause of my reservedness know that you your self have a great share in it You are all on fire because I say not presently what pleases you I suppose you do not imagine but there are men of tempers as hot as you whom that will displease which pleases you Besides the Question is of a particular nature It has been can vast heretofore with much animosity The fire is not yet dead It flames not indeed at present because the fuel of occasion is taken away but the heat lyes rak't up in mens hearts and would easily break out again I would not for all the world be he who should blow this heat into a new flame But for
a condemnation without more ado Neither did they well know at first on what bottom to fix This Indirect came in afterwards As far as can be guest they thought because the Pope was Superiour over all Christians he might therefore come and all Christians any thine Since the business coming to be debated they cast about for waies to maintain it and the Indirect way pleases most though it be not yet well setled some thinking it as much too little for the Pope as others too much But whatever they think I fear both the one and the other is ruinous to the Church For neither can pretend to be believed but for some reason and this reason since it cannot be the same for which we believe other points of Faith there being manifestly no such thing as uninterrupted delivery in the case must be something else which as well as It must pretend a vertue of inducing belief And that being a Rule of Faith which has power to settle Faith here is a new Rule of Faith brought into the Church and with it all the Incertainâ—y and all the confusion blamed in the most extravagant Sect and this even by her own confession who thinks her Rule is the only means to avoid that incâ—rtainly and that confusion This Rule is manifestly discarded by a new one For she cannot with any face pretend all she teaches was delivered to her if it be pin'd upon her that she teaches what was not dâ—livered and if She lose the pretence to all she will keep it to none since it cannot appear but if she have once deserted her Rule she has don 't oftner And then farewel Church Once take away the Rule and the Church must of necessity go after She has no solid ground of Authority but the stediness of her Faith no stediness of Faith but the stediness of her Rule break that once and there is neither Authority nor Faith nor will within a while be Church left So that in good earnest I do not think the malice of all her profest enemies could â—ver do the Church so much harm as the zeal of her unwary Friends At least for my part break but the Chain once and I know no more any certain way to Heaven than the veryest Enthusiast among all those Sectaries who rove blindly for want of a sure Guide and should find my self as much at a loss That any thing must be believ'd but what was taught by Christ or that any thing can be known to be taught by him but by the constant belief and practise of intermediate ages is what a Catholic should neither say nor endure to hear for it manifestly takes away Divine from Faith and all the advantage we profess in our method above others to come to Faith leaving us as much benighted and as much to seek and as small hopes of success as we object to those whom we think stray most and are most in the dark Wherefore salvo meliori as far as my short prospect reaches To bring Deposing Faith into the Church is a ready way to depose the Church I cannot tell whether I should more wonder or grieve but I am sure I do both to see men so intent upon the maintenance of an Opinion which they have espoused that they forget the honour and safety of the Church and to observe a certain supercilious gravity with which they labour to discourse these things into Faith and Religion should so far impose upon the world that they do not discover thâ—y are quite contrary and destructive to both But no doubt there are enough who see all that is to be seen but if they be no more forward then I to say all they think they are in my conceit the wiser By the favour of your earnestness it is no commendable disposition in private men to turn Reformers on every occasion and when they see any thing amiss step presently in and make a bustle in what concerns them not Let those who Govern the world and shall severely answer for those miscarriages of which They are the cause look to their duty Ours is to live quietly and unoffensively and trust God 's Providence Your importunity has carryed me farther than I intended But you have now your will of me and know I for my part think the not-deposing doctrine is the truly Catholic doctrinâ— Did I think otherwise all your importunities and all considerations in the world besides should not perswade me to it I hope you now find I said true when I told you my thoughts of this matter were such as bâ—came a good Christian and a good Subject and afford you no occasion to change yours if you had any good of Your c. FINIS The Thirteenth and Fourteenth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1675. FRIEND YOU had sav'd your self and me some trouble if your last had been your first I almost despair'd of doing any good upon you and perceive that exsculpere verum out of one of your humour is one of the hardest tasks in the world But since 't is come at last I regret not my own pains and for yours it was in your power to have spar'd them But yet I have not done with you The Pope is a crafty Gentleman and has more strings to his Bow then one Shut the door never so fast it is hard to keep him out If St. Peters Keys will not open the lock He has St. Pauls sword to cut it off Not that I apprehend any great danger from downright fighting 'T is a Trick he shews as seldom as he can And he has reason for Kings overmatch him at that weapon But Justice has a sword too and that so sharp that I should be very sorry to see it in his hands Now that there may be justice without deriving it from Pasce Oves or Dabo Claves and that it may belong to him as well as others and by the same means And that he actually has heretofore and may when he please again set on foot pretensions upon this Title to part perhaps all his Majesties Dominions is something too evident to be deny'd and of too great importance to be neglected It is a thing which has long disquieted me with uneasy thoughts but I must freely avow to you I was never so sensible of the danger as since I read the Considerations of present Concernment You are so much concerned in that Book that I must needs suppose you have seen it and observ'd how much may be replyed to what you have said to me But I am for the present so intent upon what 's before that I cannot reflect
by Election or succession or Force came to be Emperors I mean till the Empire was translated to the West for as he had a great hand in that translation he has ever since appeared more but I speak of the times before And all this is evident beyond all dispute Reconcile this who can with Constantins Donation If he put the Pope in possession of the Western Provinces how could he bequeath them to his Son And if he put him not in possession how could he be said to give them It is a mockery not a gift to say these Provinces are yours which I keep to my self during life and dispose to others after my death Livery and Seisin are pretty material circumstances in such conveyances where nothing can be understood to pass without them If Constantine gave them the Pope must have had them and that he had them not is as plain as History can make any thing where it is particularly with uniform consent recorded in whose hands these Western Provinces were what changes hapned from time to time and by what means from the death of Constantine till the Arms and favour of France under Pipin and his son Charles put into the Popes possession most of what he has It is known and by Bellarmine himself confest that Popes during those times were Subjects at least de facto which is enough for our present purpose there needing no more to shew they had not those Countries which Constantine is said to have given to them Not but that both he and divers others after and before him too were extreamly munificent to the Church by which munificence much Land in several places was setled on her by way of Alms and actually in her possession But she enjoy'd the revenues only of those Lands Administration of Justice and all Regalities were reserv'd to the Temporal Lords This has deceiv'd some who finding mention of Possessions belonging to the Church in former Ages imagined they so belonged to her then as they do now with entire and independent subjection Whereas till Popes were by the liberality and power of the French rais'd to the state of Temporal Princes the Lands of the Church were in the same condition with the estates of other Subjects the immediate owners receiving the Profits and both their Lands and Themselves subject to the supreme Lord. They were given to other Churches as well as Rome for maintenance of the Clergy and Poor for the expences of buildings and reparations and Divine Service and that so plentifully that some refused offered Patrimonies others restored what they once had not willing to be burthened with more than was needful These Lands paid publick duties as other Lands did till the Laws exempted them But these things are besides the matter To return to our Argument if the successors of Constantin continued the only known Masters of those very Countries which are said to be given away if Popes acknowledg'd them for such as well as the rest of the World and never so much as put in any claim or pretended any thing to the contrary And all this be so plain that nothing can be plainer no fiction can be more palpable nor more wild than this of Constantin's Donation It is undeniably evident that neither Popes nor Emperours nor any body else in those dayes knew any thing of it And it is as evident that they must know of it if it had been at all At least if they did not none else could in after times This Donation was not heard of in the World till long after Baron ad an 1191. n. 52. Marca de Conc. Sacerd. Imp. l. 3. c. 12. Baronius thinks the pretended Charter forged by the Grecians after the tenth Age Marca by the Latins in the time of Pipin and by his consent to stop the mouths of the Grecians who made instance that the Lands recovered from the Lombards and by Him given to the Church should be restored to the Empire However it be for the Time or Author of the fiction that the Charter is a meer and late forgery is acknowledged both by Baronius and by most of the learned men even of the Popes Communion That the Donation cannot be pretended with any shew of Reason but in force of the Charter is plain For 't is next to madness to say the West was given and produce no Evidence of the Gift Any man may claim any mans Estate with as much colour and the Pope from such a claim can expect no more success than another man But there is nothing which can be alledged in proof of this Donation besides this Charter Wherefore the whole business of which you seem to be jealous is in it self a pure Chimera absolutely contradicted by the course of Nature and consent of History and the only Evidence producible for it acknowledged a forgery by our selves And if this give you much disquiet I cannot but think you wonderful fearful Let the worst come to the worst 't is not the case of England alone France and Spain and Germany were Western Provinces as well as Britain and as much concern'd as we While we have such Outworks we need not much fear our Fort. The truth is our safety depends in reality on them For let his Right be never so good till it have seiz'd on them it cannot fasten on us and when it has we cannot escape let it be never so bad Mean time I think you may sleep quietly on the noise which will be made in the World when any of these Countries leave their native Princes and become subject to a Forreigner and quit their long setled Customs and Laws and Liberties in reverence to Constantin's Donation will wake you time enough But if you sleep till then you will go near to be the 8th sleeper and alone out-slumber all the seven Thus far of our Journey we have good company with us and the best part of Christendom being of the Caravan travel with security enough But now the Road parts and we must shift for our selves Henry II. say you from Baronius acknowledged the Kingdom of England Fendatory to the Pope in a Letter extant in Petrus Blesensis You might have added the Cardinals Comment upon the Popes confirmation or rather approbation of K. Stephen's election which he says was therefore mentioned in the Coronation Oath because the Kingdom was feudatory to the Pope Baron ad an 1135. 21. so that every new King receiv'd confirmation from him Which also was acknowledged by Hen. II. in the Letter of Blesensis Ad an 1172. n. 5. Besides he produces afterwards from the Acts of Alexander III. a clause of the Oath made at the conclusion of the difference upon the death of S. Thomas of Canterbury wherein the Kings both Father and Son are made to swear That they will receive and hold the Kingdom of England from the Pope and neither they nor their successors repute themselves Kings of England till the Popes for
Election at least till his Brother consented as he soon did the same title which K. Stephen and after him K. John had to the Crown I should think their Examples a very good Reason that the proceedings of those times are not to be drawn into consequence For if they may it will follow that the Kingdom of England perhaps is at least has been Elective Which I suppose no Englishman will admit if they may not I know not to what purpose they are alledged For these reasons I am perswaded nothing can be drawn from the proceedings of the first Norman Princes to justify the Resignation of King John which is so far from being binding to our times that it never had any validity at all But not to leave the matter disputable betwixt my No and the Yea of who will maintain the contrary I will fairly put it to Judgment and say whatever was done and by whatever right about the times of the Conquest that K. John in particular could not validly do what he did and that this has already been decided and in such manner that there is nothing so firmly setled in the world which may not admit of question as well as this In the reign of Ed. III. the Pope demanded the long unpaid one thousand marks granted by K. John and threatned by legal process to recover this rent A Parliament was called chiefly for this business and it was unanimously resolv'd Rot. Parl. 40 Ed. 3. That neither K. John nor any other could bring Himself his Kingdom or People into such subjection without their consent and against his Coronation Oath And that in case the Pope should by process or otherwise attempt to constrain the King or his Subjects to perform the premisses They would become Parties and resist him with all their Power This is plain and peremptory and directly to the point I cannot but muse to observe them speak doubtingly of the matter of Fact Supplication of Souls and the more because Sr. Tho. More very positively denies the Church of Rome could in his or any time produce such an Evidence When I consider He was a learned man and no Enemy to the Pope had great means of being well acquainted with Records and passages of former times unknown to others and speaks as if he had good ground for what he said I hardly know what to think of it I wish he had inform'd us what his grounds were peradventure there is more to be said than we are aware of But since he has not and the Parliament does not directly deny the Fact I for my part must be contented to take things at the worst and not deny what I cannot disprove I have this for my comfort that if the Fact were true it was in Sr. Tho. More 's words right naught worth and the Authority of Parliament to bear me out By the way our Author in alledging the consent of the Barons at that time the only representative of the Kingdom speaks against a solemn Declaration of Parliament and this undeniable proof may be joyned to what I produc'd before to make good my denial of their consent However the Question is positively decided and by an Authority irrefragable to Englishmen But lest we should be suspected of partiality in our own case let us put it to the Judgment of Forreigners When the differences betwixt this King and the Barons became irreconcileable they sought protection from France The Pope sent a Legat to disswade the French King and his Son from medling with a Kingdom the Dominion whereof belonged now to the Church The word was hardly out of the Legats mouth when the King of France reply'd suddenly M. Paris ad an 1216. That England never had been nor then was nor ever should be the Patrimony of Peter And this besides what he else alledged because no King could give away his Kingdom without consent of his Barons an error which if the Pope would maintain He would give a most pernicious example to all Kingdoms The Nobility present with great heat justify'd this speech of their King and declared they would stand for that point to death viz. that it was not in the power of any King to transfer his Kingdom or make it tributary at pleasure You see I spoke not altogether out of my own head when I refus'd to yield an arbitrary right of disposing Kingdoms even to Conquerors and that I shall not want who will take my part But to let that pass it cannot be attributed to the partiality of our either Country or Times that we hold this Deed of K. John null when it was condemned for such by those who were contemporaries to it and as much abroad as at home Who desires more security is in my opinion a very scrupulous man Notwithstanding let us put it to the Judgment of the very Contrivers of the Deed. I am much mistaken if Themselves had not the same sentiments with the rest of the world If They did not understand well enough that the consent of the Barons was necessary to the validity of the Deed why did they insert that clause Communi Consilio Baronum nostrorum A thing of this consequence undoubtedly was not carelesly hudled up Great deliberation was without question us'd and they would never have put in what they themselves and every body else knew was false but that they were sensible All was to no purpose without it So that in the hard choice of framing a Draught either without Truth or without validity They had an eye to the latter and let the first shift as it could The truth is They had reason it being obvious enough that if they could carry things out at present the Charter it self as all Records are would be a strong Presumption for the truth of what it contains to Posterity But since it is as evident as that there was a Charter that this Clause was untrue it is likewise evident that Those who put it in thought it necessary Wherefore even in their Judgments the Grant was invalid as wanting what themselves thought absolutely requisite You now perceive of what importance this point is of the Consent of the Barons of which I forbore to speak while I was examining whether they consented or no. Neither do I mean to dilate upon it now it being enough to observe that the want of it absolutely invalidates the Grant and this in the Judgment not only of the Framers and of the King and Kingdom of France but of Parliament For you see They positively declare that neither K. John nor any other could bring the Kingdom into subjection without consent of the People who at that time had none but the Barons to consent for them So that not to acquiesce in this point is to refuse the highest Authority of the Nation and who does so is not fit to live in the Nation But shall I venture to joyn our Author himself to the rest of this good company and
the Children of his elder Brother who were Heirs not to John but Richard and by John wrongfully excluded This Lady never married but liv'd to a good Age M. Paris ad an 1241. Y podig. Neustriae p. 59. one example of many of the little comfort there is in unsupported greatness She dy'd in the year 1241 and was buried among the Nuns of Amesbury to whom by permission of Henry III. She gave the Mannor of Molsham Her Right was buried with her but while she lived it cannot be said K. John had no Competitor This being so all pretence from K. Johns Fact is cut up by the roots there being not so much to be said for it as that himself had right to what he gave away And yet for my part I think if he had had a Right as unquestionable as our Author supposes it is equally unquestionable that his gift was no more valid than if he had had none Whether I have acquitted my self of what I undertook and shewn the three material points of our Authors discourse viz Consent of the Barons undoubted Right and unconfin'd power in K. John are all mistakes I am not to be my own Judge It is the readers right and to him I leave it To pass farther and examine what else is urged seems needless When the Root is dig'd up the Branches may be let alone and I am far from taking pleasure in contradicting especially a man whose Learning and Candor I esteem Yet because peradventure to neglect what he says may shew more unhandsom than to dissent from it I shall briefly deliver my opinion of the rest In the next point viz. That the Popes Title was the more confirm'd by his uninterrupted Practice I think He is mistaken too 'T is true that Henry III. did at his Coronation take an Oath of Fealty to the Pope the same which his Father had taken before And there was a very pressing necessity which oblig'd him so to do Lewis Son to the King of France was in the Bowels of the Kingdom with a strong Army and many of the Nobility took his part The King was a Child unable to do any thing for himself and forc'd to depend entirely on those who would assist him Among these the Pope was the most considerable whose Legat was with him and with unweari'd earnestness laboured for his Interest It was not for him in such a conjuncture to break with the Pope For it was evidently to ruin himself So that 't was wisely done of his Councel to provide for the greater danger first and leave the rest to time It is true also that King John made use of this subjection to annul his concession to the Barons But it does not therefore follow there was no Interruption The Archbishop of Canterbury protested at very first and in the name of the whole Kingdom the Barons refus'd to submit to the Popes sentence and stood to their obtain'd Concessions notwithstanding his Excommunications the French rejected his claim with great ardor solemn opposition was made in the Council of Lions both by King and Kingdom in the reign of Henry III. succeeding Kings positively deni'd all marks of subjection and were abetted by unanimous consent of Parliament A Practice so much opposed I think cannot be called uninterrupted Opposition sure is Interruption or at least as good For the the act of one part can never confirm a practice The Pope may do what he pleases but unless the Kingdom do something too his Title will never be confirmed It may be said that the Tribute was paid by Henry III. suppose it were what is this to the Kingdom Henry III. could not be hindred from disposing of his own and paying what and to whom he pleased But his Act cannot be thought binding to the Kingdom unless the Kingdom consented And the Kingdom was so far from consenting that it positively dissented Wherefore the practice being urged as a Title to the Kingdom it seems very plain that this Title was so far from being more confirm'd that it was not confirm'd at all nor could be by any practice of the Popes unless the Kingdom had concurred to it The next point that the Pope never solemnly devested himself I conceive not to purpose For if his Title were never good 't is no matter whether he ever disclaimed it or no. And yet if the Author of the Eulogium said to be in the Cotton Library be of any credit this too may be deny'd For he expresly says that in a Parliament at London 1214 where the Clergy cum tota laicali secta were present the obligation was by the Popes command wholy releast For my own part I must confess I know not how far this Author may be trusted not finding any mention of so remarkable a passage any where else But though his credit be obscure this is clear that if K. Johns Act were invalid of it self there needed no Act of the Popes to make it so And I take it to be no less clear that it was invalid and that we may spare the labour of inquiring whether the Pope ever gave away what he truly never had The last thing urged is that the Pope admits of no Prescription which if it be true the less reason have we to put our selves upon that trial But I think it is not true For the Canon Law allows Prescription and that against the Church of Rome as well as any other Only by way of Priviledge more time is required to bear her Plea than others But I have already declared I like not to enter into that dispute It depends on Law a study which the Interests and Passions of men have embroyl'd with so many intricate perplexities that 't is little better than a labyrinth without a Clew Nothing in my opinion is more fruitless nor perhaps more dangerous than to submit the Rights of Princes to disputes where there will be alwayes something to say and not half of what is said understood but by men of the Trade Besides there is another Consideration which to my Judgment absolutely excludes this Topick Prescription is a Plea establish't by the Civil and Canon Laws which appoint the cases the persons the times and all conditions of it Who has a Suit depending in a Court where sentence is pronounc't according to those Laws may be concern'd to study the nature of it but with us where neither Law is in force it seems wonderfully from the purpose to amuse our selves with it What have we to do to examin whether our Possession have all the conditions required to Prescription by those Laws which themselves signifie nothing If they pronounce sentence for us we are not a jot the better and if against us not a jot the worse England is a Country Independent of Forreigners and govern'd by Laws and Customs of her own What Emperours and Popes think fit to establish among their Subjects concerns us no more than what we do concerns them By our
Laws the Grant of K. John is void and has been positively declared so by the highest Tribunal among us and from which there lyes no appeal After this to put our selves upon the trial of Prescription seems a kind of submission to forreign Laws a kind of confessing the point and acknowledgment of a superiour Power Again the Law of Prescription is as other Laws made for avoiding confusion in the Commonwealth and securing the properties of members belonging to it That Commonwealths themselves are alwayes subject to the same Laws with their members I cannot easily understand The case of John a Nokes and John a Stiles is different from the supreme Lord of John a Nokes and John a Stiles It is true that generally Crowns are inherited by the same Rules with private Estates But sometimes it happens otherwise and 't is the Interest of the Commonwealth that what is not allow'd in one case should be in another The Crown of England has a priviledge above all Estates which hold of it For it takes away all defects and this whatever be in other places is Law with us I know not how idle time can be spent more idly than in unridling what is subtly proposed by the Sphinxes of Laws with which we have nothing to do while we have Laws of our own whose meaning we know and to whose authority we must and ought submit Notwithstanding if Issue were joyn'd upon this point I think there is no reason to doubt of the sentence The Conditions required to a valid Prescription by those Laws are Possession continu'd all the time determined by Law a Title probably presumed and a prudent Perswasion that the thing in question belongs to the possessor or at least to no body else which they call Bona Fides Now that the Crown of England has been in the possession of those who have worn it neither is nor can be doubted out of Bedlam That this possession has lasted much longer than any time required to Prescription is as plain as the former A hundred years is the longest time allow'd in any case and bars the claim even of the Church of Rome Lessins de Just Jure â—â—l 2. cap. 6. Dub. 12. And which peradventure is more properly the case forty prescribes against a supreme Prince if there be a Title but Time out of mind whether there be or no. Farther that the Title of our Princes is something more than probably presum'd and consequently that their possession has alwayes been accompani'd with bona Fides is as undeniable as all the rest So that I think our Author has reason to believe Prescription a very sufficient Plea against the Pope though I am not of his mind that 't is our only one But this by the by and to shew we need not fear fighting in this quarrel at any weapon Otherwise to my apprehension it is as rational to talk of the Laws of China or Japan as of Emperours and Popes with relation to England Local Laws concern only those who live where they are in force betwixt Nation and Nation there is no other Law but that of Nations and Nature And peradventure if we look better into it Prescription may it self be a Law of Nations For though it be generally taken in the notion of Civil and Canon Lawyers and go attended with the train of conditions plac't about it by them yet it may as properly signifie the same with immemorial Possession So I think our Law understands it without any notice of Title or bona Fides or any thing else but quiet Possession And so it may be this learned Gentleman himself understood it which if he did it is undoubtedly not only a sufficient but the best and strongest Plea that can be It is that whereon the firmness of most perhaps all Commonwealths in the world depends and in which the consent of Nations acknowledges an unquestionable force and which for that reason must needs be grounded on Nature Because Authors commonly take Prescription in the other sence I thought it most convenient to go along with the cry and speak in their language So taken I refuse it for a Judg not that I fear it should give sentence against me but because I think it not qualifi'd to give sentence our case belonging not to the cognisance of that Court But taken in the other sence as I cannot refuse to stand to that on which the security of the world is establish't so it is plainly of my side It being not more known that we are a Nation than that we are independent of forreign subjection and have time out of mind continued in the possession of such independency and in the sight and with the acknowledgment of all the world about us I know not how my pen runs on beyond my design and without necessity for much I think might be spared To make an end since this Fact of K. John was evidently giving away what he had no power to give no not though his right to the Crown had been undoubted which 't is plain it was not since this want of power in him was acknowledged by the very Contrivers of the Charter who were forc't to supply the Defects of which they were sensible by Clauses of Form but evidently against Truth since the Case is already a judg'd Case both at home and abroad since the judgment given at home is peremptorily conclusive and unappealable and has besides been confirm'd by a Possession which to question is to subvert the foundations of Government and render all Common-wealths unsecure and tottering I think no man of sense can be mov'd by any thing which can be said on the Popes behalf in this point But if so much scruple and so little reason may be suspected in our Nation of all men in it the suspicion should not fall on those of our Communion We have given very good evidence of our sence in this point by publickly declaring it For they were of our Communion who made the Act of Parliament mention'd before and solemnly resolv'd this Fact in particular to be void and null And they were of our Communion who in another occasion declared the Independency of the English Crown and its freedom from all earthly subjection and this with relation particularly to the Pope If any one be found scrupulous enough and mad enough against all reason and the judgment of his Ancestors of his own Communion to refuse to give you all imaginable security in this point I consent with all my heart you treat him as a man degenerated from the loyalty of his Ancestors and no company for good Subjects It is now time to make a step into Ireland in which though the novelty of strange places be usually full of wonder yet I do not think to find any thing more wonderful than this Bull of Pope Adrian which you mention That all Islands which have receiv'd Christianity should eo ipso belong to the Church of Rome is a thing in
claim to Ireland independently of this Grant So that whatever Pope Adrian mean't it is evident his Successors never understood his meaning gave them any right to that Island Nothing is more foolish than to catch at words and interpret the meaning by the sound when we have Actions immemorial practice and custom to guide us securely and assure us the meaning whatever it be cannot be contrary to these Allow that method once and you leave no stability even in what the good of mankind requires should be most stable the settlement of Commonwealths In short if our Kings Title to Ireland be not good there is no good Title in the world At least I know none establish't on a surer foundation And were it the question believe I could make it out But we are not now enquiring what Title our Kings have but whether the Pope have any For which reason I forbear to meddle with the Book you mention which seeks to overthrow the Title of England not to establish that of the Pope Only in short I must acknowledg I never read any thing with more grief nor so much shame The best is the Curs't Cow has wondrous short horns As ill as He means in my opinion he does more good than harm For Truth is well proved when 't is perceived it cannot be disproved but weakly And nothing is weaker than his discourse What is most material is directly contrary to History but his chief business is to bring as you say hard names to prove what is not a jot to purpose when 't is proved He casts away the greatest part of his pains upon the Punctilios required to Prescription by the Civil and Canon Laws in Suits betwixt Subject and Subject and never considers that those Punctilios and those Laws have nothing to do with the case and that the Rights of Princes are establish't upon a higher and more steady Basis than local and mutable constitutions But I have discours'd of this point before and mean not to trouble you with repetitions and that in a Question which concerns me not No better answer can nor other need Hist of the Irish Remonst p. 739. 742. be given to this Book than what was given in Ireland where an 1648. the supreme Council of the Confederat Catholicks caus'd it to be burn't at Kilkenny by the common Hangman and the National Congregation too of the Irish Clergy I mean Roman Catholick at Dublin an 1666. condemn'd it to the same fate And for the rest whoever doubts of his Majesties right to all and every part of his Dominions is a Traitor without more ado and cannot complain if he be us'd like one nor any body for him This answer I conceive may serve for Scotland too with which I shall make short work believing your Jealousies in that particular are not very pressing The only stumbling block that I know in this matter is the letter you cite of Boniface VIII to Edward I. in which Mat. Westm ad an 1301. with a phrase as unintelligible as that of Adrians Bull it is said qualiter ab antiquis temporibus Regnum Scotiae pleno jure pertinuit adhuc pertinere dignoscitur ad Ecclesiam supradictam meaning the Roman And again ex quibus nulli in dubium veniat Regnum Scotiae praelibatum ad praefatam Rom. Ecclesiam pertinere While I read this Letter and the Kings answer I was inclin'd to believe the meaning of this was that the Pope as a common Father of Christendom had right to interpose in emergent differences in Scotland as well as other places I observed that he alledges Debitum Pastoralis Officii for the reason why he meddles and respect to his seat and Person for the motive why the King should yield to his request Again the Ex quibus whence he concludes this subjection are because Scotland used not to admit a Legat not particularly directed to that Kingdom That the Arch Bishop of York could not obtain sentence at Rome in favour of the Primacy claimed by him over the Scottish Churches and that the Kingdom was converted by the Relicks of Saint Andrew These have so little to do with Civil subjection to Rome and what he mentions besides has a great deal less that I could not imagine a Pope from such Premises could draw such a conclusion Besides that the King in his answer does not take the least notice of such a sence But coming to read the answer of the Nobility to whom the King purposely left that point I percieve they understood the words as they sounded I shall therefore give their answer and make an end Your letters being read say they tam sensibus nostris admiranda quam hactenus inaudita in jis audivimus contineri Scimus enim nec ullis temporibus ipsum regnum in temporalibus pertinuit vel pertinet quovis jure ad Ecclesiam vestram supradictam and again nec etiam Reges Scoterum Regnum aliis quam Regibus Angliae subfuerunt vel subjici consueverunt Pursuant hereunto They would not consent the King should send Proctors as the Pope desir'd to Rome to make out his Title there nay they declare They would not permit the King to do it although he would it being too great a prejudice to his known Rights to submit them to Trial. If this do not satisfy I know not what will At least it did satisfy the Pope who in Pol. Virgils words statim refrixit Pol. Virgil lib. 1â— in Ed. â— ut scilicet si pertinacius contenderet ne inhoneste causa caderet and never that I know touch't upon this string more And It must satisfy all Englishmen For it was a resolution of Parliament or at least of a great Council of the Nobility which in those days was equivalent I Am come to the end of your Letter and I think of writing too Unless you do something on your side besides asking questions painful to resolve and fruitless when they are resolved you have my last it may be your full wish my first too For I cannot answer it to reason to continue sowing in barren ground and believe while so much trouble is coming on us all your self would counsel me not to run into more that of breaking my brains to no purpose There has been already said what I hoped might have wrought more favourable inclinations towards us Since the Physick works not whether by your indisposition or its own inefficacy 't is peradventure to play the foolish as well as unskilful Emperick to go on administring But yet since Losers have leave to talk permit me to make use of that liberty it may be the only one which I shall long enjoy As much reason as I have to grieve yet truly I cannot but wonder as much at your proceedings Can it possibly be your interest to keep a party alwayes in fear of the Law and by that fear prompted to wish a change in it I mistake if it be not the
a little how the world has gone and goes with those who gratify you in this matter What was the event of that unwearied constancy which the learned Withrington shew'd in it He lost his good name his Friends all comforts of life all sweetness of society with those of his own communion and had not so much as Liberty from you but liv'd and dy'd a Prisoner Walsh succeeds him in learning in fidelity in constancy and in all likelyhood fortune He has appear'd so far in this business that I believe he thinks it not safe to appear in any part of the world where the Pope bears sway and yet for ought I know has as little security at home as abroad His Liberty and Life are at the mercy of every informer it not being in the power of any Judge before whom he shall be brought to save him from the punishment appointed for Treason Harold is another who has appeared in this cause with the same success He lives confin'd in a convent of his own order in or near Bruxels because he refuses to retract the Irish remonstrance without an express saving of fidelity to his King This by the Congregation de Propaganda at Rome was judged a captious exception and the man is by the Internuncio of Bruxels confin'd against his will and notwithstanding the permission of his own Superiors to retire elsewhere Coppinger and the rest of the regular Remonstrants in Ireland to say nothing of other and those many and grievous vexations are either actually banisht by the late Proclamation against Bishops and Regulars or live in extream danger and fear of being discovered and expos'd to the law by those who hate them for their constancy to the Remonstrance And this is the sate of all who gratify you with those testimonies of Loyalty which you are perpetually urging Time was when you objected against me that we had an unintelligible way of Government among us Permit me to say I can as little understand yours He was a wise Prince who caused the Oath of Allegiance to be made with design to distinguish the dangerous Principles which he thought concurred to the Powder Treason from others which were innocent Who can understand why those who by that Distinction are found on the right side should always be in worse condition than those who are on the wrong Did K. James or the Parliament when they establisht a Distinction by Law mean to find out the Innocent by their distinction that they might be the worse for their Innocence To impute Danger and Treason to one part and punish both and the not-dangerous and not-Traitors more For so they are though not by you This is the effect of your Distinction though sure it was never the design The Act seems made to distinguish the Treason for which you say we suffer from the Religion for which you say we do not And when all is done they are not so much as exempt from the punishment of Traitors who by this Act are exempted from the guilt of Treason Withrington was no Traitor his actions and writings clear him sufficiently Walsh is no Traitor on the contrary he has given proofs of Fidelity which few could and fewer perhaps would And yet the Law looks on him and may to day or to morrow pass on him as a Traitor Truly it is not intelligible at least to my dulness how it should be for your interest that things should be carried in this manner This I know that while they are so few will comply with you I mean where with a safe conscience they may For Hopes and Fears are the main motives which carry human nature and 't is not to be expected people should gratifie you when they have nothing to hope and more to fear than when they do not For my own part I think you very unreasonable to quarrel at me for being conceal'd and single At least I am not so unreasonable as to court any man by joyning with me to run the fate of Walsh and Withrington and will avoid it my self as long as I can I relish not their uncomfortable condition finding it uncomfortable enough to live in perpetual fear of the Laws But I declare they shall not take hold on me for Treason For I again disclaim those positions which you say are Treasonable More I could and would say to you if none saw my letters but your self But thus much I profess to all the world and besides that I am Your very humble Servant This following Quotation out of Dr. H. Ferne late Bishop of Chester should have been inserted with those other Quotations taken out of Dr. Stillingfleet c. which you have before at the end of the Protestant Gentleman's Letter pag. 7. But the Book of the said Dr. Ferne which has it came not to hand soon enough to insert it there And yet being so directly and fully to purpose I would not omit giving it here I Believe and do suppose there are some Popish Priests who in the simplicity of their hearts and out of meer Conscience of Religion do labour the propagation of it whilst others more directly are guilty of Seditious and Treasonable Practices It is my wish there could be a distinction made between the one and the other that the punishment which the Law adjudges all Priests to that are found within the Land might only fall upon them who are indeed guilty of such practices which being so frequently found in their predecessors and the State being not able to distinguish between them who are all Missionaries of Rome caused those Laws to be made for the security of Prince and State And if they that come into the Land without any Treasonable intent do suffer for it they must thank their fellows as the above-mentioned Seculars do the Jesuits whose restless attempts forced the State to forbid them all entrance into the Land under pain of Treason To conclude it is not Religion nor the Function nor any Ministerial Act belonging to it that is punished in Romish Priests but Treason and Seditious practices to which Religion Sacraments Ministery of Reconciliation and all that is reputed Holy are made to serve and all this to advance and secure the Papal Vsurpation Dr. H. Ferne in his Book entituled Certain Considerations of present Concernment touching This Reformed Church of England Printed in London 1653. Chap. 5. Paragraph 9. Pag. 169. FINIS The Fifteenth and Sixteenth OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun and Benjamin Tooke at the Ship in St. Paul's Church-yard 1679. FRIEND I Have got a new Flea in my Ear which you must needs pull out It is like enough my importunity may not be over-welcom and you