ought to counte the Canonicall scriptures in so much that I might not their honour which is due to those men saued improue or refuse any thing in their writinges â–ª c. And writing to Paulina of the credite to be giuen to the Scripture Alijs vero testibus c. As for any other witnesses saith he or testimonies whereby thou arte moued to beleue ought to be it is lawfull for thee to beleeue it or not to beleeue it And so saith S. Herome Quod scripturae sacrâ—… authoritatem non habet eadem facilitate contemnitur qua recipitur That that hath not authoritie of the holy Scripture is as easily dispised as receyued So saith Chrysostome Nullis omnino credendum nisi dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis sanctis Thou must beleue none without they say or do those things that are agreeable to the Scriptures And againe Si quid absque scriptura dicitur c. If any thing be spoken without the Scripture the knowledge of the hearers halteth nowe graunting now staggering now and then detesting the talke as vayne now and then as probable receyuing it But wheras the scripture is there the testimonie of Gods voice commeth forth both confirming the talke of the speaker and confirming the minde of the hearer So S. Cyprian Legat hic vnum verbum c. Let him reade the onely woorde and on this commaundement let the christian religion meditate and out of this scripture he shall finde the rules of all doctrine to flowe and to spring from hence and hither to returne what soeuer the Churches discipline doth conteyne So saith Cyrill Necessarium nobis est diuinas sequi liter as in nullo ab earum prascripto discodere It is necessâ—…rie for vs to follow the diuine writinges and to swerue in nothing from their prescript rule And 〈◊〉 these Fathers so all the Doctours be plaine not to allow much lesse to determine any doctrine not onely contrarie but also besides the worde of God. Nor the Auncient doctours onely but also diuerse of the popish writers affirme that neither the Churche the Bishops the Pope nor any prouincial or generall couÌ„cel hath powre to determine any doctrine to be true or false otherwise than onely by the authoritie of the Scriptures to declare them so to be So saith Thomas of Aquine In doctrina Christs Apostolorum c. In the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles all truth of faith is sufficiently layde forth Howbeit to beat downe the errours of heretikes and of peruerse men certaine opinions of faith ought many times to be declared And of the same minde also is your great captaine Frier Alphonsus de Castro who attributing farre more to the popish Church and the Pope than he ought to do yet in this point after long disputation and argumentes on the matter he concludeth Nullo ergo modo c. It can by no meanes therefore be that the church may make any new article of faith but that the which before was the true faith and yet was hidde from vs the churche by hir censure maketh that it may be knowne vnto vs Whereuppon appeareth that my Lord Abbate did miserably erre who expounding the chapter that beginneth Câ—…m Christus which is had in the booke of the Decretall epistles in the title de Hereticis saith that the Pope can make a newe article of the faithe But he must be borne withall being ignorant nor well weighing of what thing he spake this onely I see must be laide in his dish that he Iudged beyond the slipper for it is not the office of Canonistes to Iudge of heresie or of faith but the office of Diuines to whom Gods lawe is committed The Canonistes partes are to descant of the Popes lawe Looke they to it therefore least while they couet to sit on both stooles the taile come to grounde as is the Prouerbe Thus sharpely concludeth Alphonsus against my Lord Abbate and all popish Canonistes that would intermedle with writing in Diuinitie I knowe not whether you Master Stapleton were any such or nâ—… but many of your site are euen such as he speaketh of that woulde studie bothe the Popes lawes and Gods lawes togither and so lay them both in the duste For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christi Behal VVhat felowship is there betwene Christ and Belial Thus writeth he that neither the Pope nor his 〈◊〉 nor the Church can determine faith or hereâ—…ie without the worde of God. And so saith Ferus Cum contâ—…leris falsaâ—… doctrinâ—…m c. When you shall conferre the false doctrine ye shall finde out the errour For the onely holy Scripture is the rule of the truthe from the which whatsoeuer differeth or doth contrarie it is darnell and errour in what countenaunce soeuer outwarde it come forthe For he that is not with me is against me saith Christe Herevppon the Apostles and Disciples in the primitiue Churche did dayly search the Scriptures whether they were so or no. For oft time it commeth to passe that that is iudged errour which is not errour and contrarie wise Here therefore the Scripture iudgeth So Christe was Iudged a transgressour of the lawe but if ye conferre him with the Scripture you shall see he agreeth best therewith On the contrary the traditions of the Phariseys seemed good which not withstaÌ„ding Christ conferring with the Scripture plainly sheweth they are contrarie to the Scripture And therefore Dauid in all that octonarie desireth nothing els but to be directed by the worde of God. And the same Ferus in the eleuenth chap. of Matthew Baculus arundâ—…neus est quicquid extra verbum des traditur c. VVhat soeuer is giuen without the worde of God is a rodde of a reede For it is al onely the worde of God which we may safely leane vppon in so much that from hence thou mayst see what frowarde deceyuers they be that for the worde of God would onely set foorth vnto vs their dreames that is a rodde of a reede Hereuppon the true Apostles gloried most of all on this that they deliuered nothing but the woord of God so saith Peter Not following vnlearned â—…bles we make knowne to you the powre and presence of our Lord Iesus Christe so Paule doth glory that he receyued not the Gospell of men but by the reuelation of Iesus Christe Whereon he inferreth if therefore any preache any other thing let him be accursed As though he shoulde say â–ª we haue preached the woorde of God whereto ye may safely leane â–ª accursed therefore be he that for the certayne worde of God bringeth a rodde of a reede that is to say mannes feigninges Thus hitherto agrée euen these Papists with the auncient Fathers that nothing may be decided to be true or false neither by Church Councell Pope or any Man nor any Angell with out the authoritie of Gods worde so to iudge and confirme the same But say you by this rule it
huius vulgo transumptuÌ„ Ung double de ceste loy â–ª ad exemplum libri sacerdotuÌ„ LeuitaruÌ„ Quasi dicat ad exeÌ„pluÌ„ castigatissâ—…uÌ„ ad exemplum eoruÌ„ qui sunt periti in ea lege quales sunt Leuitae He shall prouide for him selfe that of this lawe there be drawen out a coppie commonly called a transumpt One couple of this law According to the examples of the priests beeing Leuites as who should say after the best corrected copy after their copie that are skilfull in the lawe suche ones as the Leuites are But to receiue it after such a simple sorte as in processe of time the Rabines and the Priests too from time to time had watred it with their false gloses as since that time the popish Rabines of the schole friers monkes and priestes from time to time with their false dangerous damnable gloses haue corrupted and watred the same and made it as it were of pleasant wine moste sowre vineger ye had néede to ryse betimes M. Stap. or euer ye shall proue this vntimely consequence by the text that you vrge so sore or yet by any other Your argument is this The king in the olde lawe should receiue the coppie of the booke of the lawe at the handes of the Priestes of the Leuiticall tribe Ergo â–ª If Princes now will haue the Bible they must receyue it of such and after such manner as the popish priests will from time to time deliuer it to them Now not seing the extreme folie of your sequele ye runne on headlong as though all were yours and say if this order had of late yeares bene kept and that Princes and other had taken the Bible as it is and euer hath bene of the Priestes of the Catholike churche orderly and lawfully succeeding one the other as the Leuites did read taught and expounded as well in Greke and Hebrue as in Latine these errours and heresies should neuer haue taken so deepe a roote as they haue now caught Here is bibble babble inough but no argument and all runnes vppon his wonted presupposals that our doctrine is heresies and errours that they be the Priestes of the Catholike churche That they orderly and lawfully succeede one the other as did theâ—…e Leuites That they haue euer redde taught and expounded the Scripture in Greeke Hebrewe and Latine That their translation is onely true and faithful And that this their order from time to time hath euer bene till of late Let all these thinges be graunted to M. Stapl. for vndoubted principles and then let him alone But if a man denied all these things beyng euery one so apparant false proued that our doctrine were not those dangerous gloses errours or heresies but the expresse infallible worde of God if he denied that their Church were the Catholike Churche otherwise than in that sense that the scholler of Oxford by a certeine woman whom other praysed did merily say she was a Catholike woman meaning a common queane so the Popishe church in like sense is a Catholike church that is to say a common strumpet prostitute to all Idolatrie and not the chaste espouse of Iesu Christe if he denied not onely such orderly succession in your Pope his Bishops and Priests now as was of the Leuites then they beyng expresly ordeyned of God you beyng not ordeined of God at all but also proue that suche succession as it is whiche in dede may better be called degeneration is altogether vnorderly and vnlawful If hée denyed that they did alwayes reade teache and expound the scripture in Hebrue Greke and Latine when euen among the moste of theyr greate Schoole doctours in that blynde tyme they had vneth any meane skill in Latin muche lesse or nene at all in gréeke or Hebrue As for the moste of their morrow Masse Priestes lyke blynde guydes were so farre from reading teaching and expounding the Scriptures to the people out of any other tongues that euen in their mother toung they scarse knewe one worde thereof themselues If he denyed that they woulde haue the Scripture redde taughte and expounded at all but on the contrarie woulde haue no translation other than their common latin translation which howe corrupte it is is manyfeste as Besides the Protestantes Caietanus Erasmus Pagninus Catharinus and others of themselues are enforced to confesse it If he denied that the Popishe handling of Gods woorde hathe bene the order that hath euer bene but is quite contrary to the originall Institution to the aunciente order and is of muche later tymes as corruption from tyme to tyme hathe taken deeper roote If a man thus denyed all these his Principles til tyme be that M. Stapleton shall proue them better than onely by dreamyng that wée graunte them for true whyche are called into greate question and denyed of vs for manyfest false Then is all the fatte in the fire and thys Mast. Stapletons solemne processe aunswered and confuted Neuerthelesse M. Stapleton styll procéedyng on as thoughe all these thynges were out of question Neyther is this place onely mente sayeth he that the King shoulde take the bare letter but rather the exposition vvithall of the sayde Priestes For vvhat vvere the king the better or any man else for the bare letter if hee hadde not also as ordinarie a vvaye for his direction in his vnderstandyng as hee had prouided him for to receyue a true and an incorrupted copie VVhereof wee may see the practise in all ages in the catholike Churche whereof this place is the very shadow and figure And herewithal he setteth vp in his margin this note bothe the bookes of the Scripture and the exposition muste be taken at the priestes handes The argumente is this The king in the olde lawe must receiue not only the bare letter of the priestes handes but the exposition withall Ergo Christian Princes muste receyue that sense of the Scripture that the Popishe priestes doe please to expounde vnto them As there is none I truste so simple that séeth not the fondnesse of this argumente so agayne eche man may perceyue that the more M. Stapleton trauayleth on these wordes whiche he sayth be vnfaithfully lefte out hée shall not onely shewe the more his owne vnfaithfulnesse but detecte also the vnfaithfull dealing of all his Romishe priestes and Churche For where as this place sayeth that the Leuiticall Priestes shall delyuer to the Kyng a perfecte and true Coppie of the Lawe of God whyche hée shall vvrite oute and haue it by him And that the Priestes shoulde not delyuer onely the bare letter but withall the exposition therof not expounded after their fantasies as dyd the Scribes and Phariseis in one place by the bare letter whiche Christ confuteth Math. 5. 6. 7. In an other place by their owne inuentions and traditions but one place truly expouÌ„ded by an other and so deliuer it faithfully to their Prince And that this order then was the verye shadowe and figure of the true Churche
both the Scripture S. Hierome maketh no differeÌ„ce but only the custome institution of the Church The Apostle saith he writing to the Philippenses cap. 1. saith With the Bishops and the Deacons by them vnderstanding the Elders sith in one citie as in Philippos many Bishops ought not to be Agayne Act. 2. he saith Looke to your selues and to all the flocke in which the holy ghost hath placed you to be Bishops And he spoke vnto them of the onely citie of Ephesus But this appeareth more expresly to Titus the. 1. Where he saith for this cause I haue left thee at Crete that thou shouldest correct those things that want ordeine Elders through out the cities eueÌ„ as I haue apointed to thee if any be blamelesse the husbaÌ„d of one wife And streight he setteth vnder it a B. must be blamelesse And whoÌ„ before he named an Elder he calleth now a Bishop And in the. 4. of the. 1. to Timothie Dispise not saith he the grace of God which is giuen to thee through the imposition of the handes of an Elder that is to say of a Bishop S. Paule called him selfe an Elder when he was the Bishop that ordeined him Thus far more at large DuraÌ„dus concluding at leÌ„gth Sic ergo Thus therfore saith S. Hierome that a Bishop and an Elder Olim fueruÌ„t nominâ—… synonymâ—… c. were in the old time diuerse names betokening one thing indiffereÌ„tly and also of one administration â–ª bicause the Churches were ruled by the commune Counsell of the Priestes But for the remedie of a scisme least each one drawing the Churche after him should breake hir it was ordeyned that one should be aboue the rest et quâ—…ad nomeÌ„ c. And so far forth as stretcheth to the name that he onely should be called Bishop and that so farre as stretcheth to the administration of some Sacraments and Sacramentals they should be reserued to him by the custome coÌ„stitutioÌ„ of the Church And this would Hierome expresly 93. Dist. cap. legimuâ—… in Esa. super epistolam ad Tit. recitatur Dist. 93. cap. Olim presbyterâ—… c. Consuetudo aut institutio Ecclesiae potest dare Iurisdictiâ—…nem sed non potestatem ordinis aut consecrationis quare c. He therefore that counteth this erroneouse or perilous let him impute this to Hierome out of whose saying in the fore alleaged chapter Legimus in Esa. the foresaide authorities are takeÌ„ VVhere also he putteth an exaÌ„ple That it is of a Bishop in respect of priests as of an Archdeacon in respect of Deacons vnlesse the Deacons choose one among them selues whom they call Archdeacon c. In the end DuraÌ„dus recoÌ„ciling Hierome saith and the authorities alleaged by Hierome withstande it not bicause according the name and the truth of the thing euery Bishop is an Elder and on the other parte so farre as stretcheth to the name euery Elder hauing cure may be called a Bishop as superattendent on other although the consecratioÌ„ of a Bishop or of the chiefe Priest be larger than of a simple Priest or Elder but peraduenture in the pâ—…imitiue Churche they made not such force in the difference of names as they do now And therfore they called a Bishop euery one that had a cure Thus writeth Durandus of the auncient Fathers opinions And will ye compt him or them Aerians too And this also doth your institution in Coâ—…aine Councell confesse N on est tamen putandum VVe must not for all this thinke that he ordeined Bishops another order from Priests for in the Primitiue church Bishops and Priests were all one The which the Epistles of Peter and Paule the Apostles S. Hierome alâ—…o and almost all the auÌ„cient ecclesiastical writers do witnesse And chiefly that place of the first Epistle of S. Peter the â—…ist chapter is euident to declare this For when Peter had said The Elders that are amoÌ„g you I also an Elder with you beseech which am also a witnesse of the passions of Christ and paâ—…taker of the glory to come that shal be reuealed He ioyned vnder it Feede or guide the slocke of Christ that is among you and ouersee it not by compulsion but willingly according to god VVherein it is spokeÌ„ more expresly in the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say Superattendent from whence also the name of Bishop is drawne VVherefore Priesthood is esteemed the highest order in the Churche In the meane time no bodie is ignorant that this order is distinguished againe by a certayne order of offices and dignities Thus do your Schoolemen and Diuines witnesse First that in the Substance Order or Character as they terme it there is no difference betweene a Priest and a Bishop Secondly that the difference is but of Accidents and circumstances as degrées of dignitie Iurisdiction Honour c. Thirdly that in the Primitiue Church this difference was not knowne but they were méerely all one and the same Fourthly that this difference was taken vp by custome consent and ordinance of the Uniuersall Church when it once began to be dispersed in al the world Fiftly that it was done for the auayding of factions and sectes that grewe in the time of the ministers equalitie euen anon after the Primitiue Churche and some of them in the Apostles time But quite contrary to this Iudgement of your Diuines are all your Canonistes your Diuines make seuen orders Et in hoc saith Angelus de clauisio concordant coÌ„muniter theologs On this the diuines agree commonly but the Canonists holde that there are nine orders according to nine Hierarchies that is to wite the first notch or psalmist and the order of a Bishop and that the first notch is an order the text is in C. cum contingit ibi do Anto. canonistâ—… de 〈◊〉 quali or similiter quod Episcopatus est ordo quod imprimatur Caracter indiâ—…io meo facit inconuincibiliter tex in C. 1. de ordinatis ab Episcopo c. sic secundum Canonist as erunt nouem ordines And so according to the canonistes there shal be nine orders Great ado your Scoolemen and Canonistes make about this in so much that Aerius heresie will draw verie néere to one of you light on which side it shall But your selfe may holde on both sides M. Stapleton being both a Bachelour in the one and a student in the other As for vs ye do falsly burden vs Our doing is apparant therein acknowleging all due obedience and reuerence to our Bishops But as for your Popishe Clergie there is in déede litle differeÌ„ce in this point or none which barrell is better herring B. or Priest both starke nought or rather neither of them eyther true Priest or B. by S. Paules description Secondly you obiect that Aerius said there was no difference betwene him that fasted and him that did not fast wherein also as in the other your conscience haue ye any knoweth that ye
and profitable to the soule yet vvill he not that any should be constrayned Thus sayth Alfonsus of Aerius opinion for fasting and not as you say master Stapleton that he made no dyfference betvveene him that fasted and that fasted not Whereas Aerius made a great difference and Alfonsus cleareth him of that you accuse him But howsoeuer Alfonsus in the other poynt wherin you let him go frée accuseth Aerius by S. Augustines testimonie if he altogither contemned all maner of fasting ordeyned by the Churche then are we cleared from béeing charged with him for we refuse onely the superstitious necessitis of the Popishe Churches lawes As for the true Churche of Christe if vpon any occasion some lawes of fasting should be made by hir toll vs where we haue sayd we would contemne them Yea it is apparant we yéelde obediently to those lawes of fasting ordeyned by the Quéenes Maiestie and hir realme the Churche of Englande whiche be not superstitious fastes nor binding the minde of the faster with any necessitie of conscience but made for the necessitie and policie of the Realme and state of our countrey And if the whole Church of Christ ordeine like lawes for fasting we shewe hereby how little we would with Aerius despise the same but we with the word of God and with the true Church of Christ in the Apostles times in the Primatiue age and in the auncient fathers dayes reiect all suche superstitions in fastes as the Popishe lawes and customes â—…o burden the Churche withall And thus dothe euen S. Augustine that noteth Aerius writing to Casulanus agaynst one Urbicus in Rome who would haue it obserued for a lawe and made a foolish booke theron that men should fast on Saterday and other dayes saying that Peter did so whom he calleth as the papistes do the head of the Apostles the porter of heauen and the foundation of the Church when he conuicted Simon Magus S Augustine improueth this tale by Peters concorde with all his fellow Disciples that vsed no suche faste And after long prouing and improuing he concludeth thus Si autem quontam huic quantum potus c. But bicause I thinke I haue answered this as sufficiently as I could if ye aske my sentence hereon I reuoluing it in my minde do see that in the Euangelicall and Apostolicall writings and in the whole instrument that is called the new Testament fasting is coÌ„maunded But on what dayes we shoulde not fast and on what dayes we should fast I finde it not defined by the commaundement of the Lorde or of the Apostles And by this I deeme that fasting agreeth fitter not in deede to obtayne righteousnesse which fayth obteineth wherein is the beautie inwarde of the kings daughter c. Howbeit in this fast or dinner on the Saterday nothing seemeth to me heerein to be kepte more safely and quietly than that he which eateth dispise not him that eateth not nor he which eateth not dispise not him which eateth For neither if we eate we shall abounde neither shall we want if we do not eate That is to say while we keepe companie with those among whome we liue and with whome we liue to God without offence taking in these things For as for that the Apostle saythe is true it is ill for the man that eateth through offence so is it ill for the man that by offence doth fast c. Thus farre saint Augustine agaynst the precise appointing of fast on the Saterday in whose time it was frée for euery Church to vse hir owne custome Yea as he concludeth with aunswere of Ambrose hereon VVhen I am at Millaine I fast not on the Saterday when I am at Rome I fast on the Saterday And to what Church ye come keepe the order thereof if ye will neither giue nor take offence Thus we sée first how the fastes of the Church of Rome were no such lawe to all other Churches to receyue from hir their order or dayes of fasting or else they had bene Aerians for then had both S. Augustine Ambrose to béene Aerians by master Stapletons rule and by the Popes obtrusion of his Churches fastes to all other Churches nowe But the Church of Millayne euen vnder his nose besydes those of Affrick were at that time of contrarie orders Secondly as it was of Saterdayes fast so was it also for Fridayes fast or any other daies or day as appeareth by Saint Augustines generall rule in appealing to the Scripture and there finding no day at all appoynted As he sayth afterward againe Sed quoniam noÌ„ inâ—…enimus c. But bicause we finde not as I haue rehearsed aboue in the Euangelicall and Apostolicall writings which properly perteyne to the reuealing of the newe Testament that on any certaine dayes it is euidently commaunded we should keepe fastes c. Thirdly that what dayes soeuer they did kéepe fast they did it not as any meritorious act to obteyne righteousnesse thereby For this was the difference that the Papists put betwene him that fasted and that fasted not which is a thousand partes worse heresie than was that of Aerius I aske none other witnesse herein than euen one of your owne side Frier Ferus who inueying agaynst the Phariseys for ascribing righteousnesse to their sacrifices and ceremonies But wee sayth he do all things preposterously placing righteousnesse in these things which of themselues are neither good nor bad neglecting those things wherein true righteousnesse consisteth But one errour draweth on another For from hence followeth first that we make to our selues a greater conscience of the transgression of the Churches or Monkishe decrees than of the transgression of the diuine precepts Secondly hereon it commeth that we easily iudge other that obserue not the same as here did the disciples of Iohn VVhen Paule notwithstanding teacheth let no man iudge you in meate or in drinke or by reason of a feast day c. Item he that eateth not let him not iudge him that eateth c. To conclude it is farre an other thing to doe the worke than to put a trust in the worke It is good to fast and to keepe the Churches decrees but to put a trust in them is not only not good but wicked For this cause therfore Christ required not fasting other bodily obseruations he exacted not of those that are his or prescribed ought at all of these things not that he iudged such things of theÌ„selues to be euill or vnlawfull but that they should not â—…all thither againe that is to were to a trust of workes from whiche he woulde haue them most farre The which surely had chauÌ„ced if he had exacted any such thing of those that are his as nowe we perceyne is committed in the Churches constitutions For euen as sone as euer these coÌ„stitutions began to be giuen men began also therwith to trust in them And so by little little we haue
Pigghius who might for his writing be called Hogghius wel inough one of your chiefest porkelings in his defence of the inuocatioÌ„ of Saincts against the worde of God He groyneth out this saying Ego certè maiore ratione c. Truly I will with greater reason denie thee the authoritie of all the Scriptures than that thou shalt call me into doubte the beliefe and authoritie of the catholike Church since that vnto me the Scriptures haue no authoritie but all onely of the Churche What a wicked and swynish saying is this of a proude Popish borepigge against the euerlasting worde of God that it hath no authoritie at all from God the author of it but all from man all from the Churche of Rome for that is the Catholike Church that he meaneth the Pope his College of Cardinals and his assemblies of Priests for this they call the oecumenicall and representatiue Church All the authoritie that the worde of God hath it hath it from them alone Which if it were true then indéede as he saithe by better reason he may denie all the Scriptures than so much as call into doubt the beléefe and authoritie of the popish Bishops and Priests Why may they not then adde too and take from and make what and as many Ceremonies as they please and good reason to But since it is no reason that the worde of God should be thus trod vnder the foote of man that Gods worde should giue place to mans worde that Gods worde should haue all his authoritie of the worde of Priests and none at all of God that the Wiues worde should controll checke mate and châ—…ks vp hir husbandes worde that the wife may speake and appointe as much as she thinkes good and the husbande which hath but a few wordes to say can not be heard that the wiues worde should beare the streake and giue authoritie to the husbandes worde according to the common saying As the good man saith so say we but as the goodwife saith so it must be if this be no good reason nor any reason but cleane against all reason then may we replie to Pigghius and you M. St. that with better reason â–ª all your Churches authoritie and beleefe ought net onely to be called in doubte â–ª whether it agrée to Gods worde or no but also ought to depend wholy and onely on the authoritie of Gods worde And rather than the authoritie of the worde of God should be called into doubte much lesse denied as wickedly he presumeth to speake it were much better reason that he were cast into the sea as Christ saith and in sléede of a milstone that all his ceremonies were hanged aboute his necke all such blasphemous swine as this Pigghius were caried hedloÌ„g into the sea with him Yea saith Christ Heauen and earth shall passe but my worde shall not passe If your Catholike Church M. St. were the true wife and spouse of the Sonne of God she would with all lowlinesse humilitie reuerence here regarde obey Christ hir husbandes worde And be content to be commaunded by it not to countermaunde it not to thinke it were not of force vnlesse she gaue authoritie thereunto not to adde or diminishe to or from it not to commaunde one thing when he commaundes another not to compell the children and houshold of the faith to obserue hir worde more than hir husbandes not to haue twentie commaundements for hir husbandes tenne not to vse other fashions and customes than hir husband bids hir yea such as he forbids hir not to haue all the wordes and hir husbande not one worde yea to shut vp his mouthe and not to heare his worde these are impudent whores and bolde strumpets fashions a godly Christian matrone a vertuouse and faithfull spouse would neuer do thus But since your Church doth thus call hir catholike so fast as ye lust she is nothing else but a common catholike queane and not the humble and faithfull spouse of christ And your selues that defende hir haue good reason indéede to defende your Mother but such Mother such children that to holde with their mother dispise their Father and make hir worde to giue authoritie to his and say that with better reason they may denie the authoritie of their Fathers worde than so much as make a doubte of the beleefe and authoritie of their mother Yea that is a good ladde I warrant him and a well taught childe that will helpe the Mother to beate the Father is he not worthie his Mothers blessing for his labour but suche bastarde rebelles shal be sure of the Fathers curse For indéede they are not his Children Ues ex patre vestro Diabolo estis You are of your Father the Diuell Qui ex Deo est verba Dei audit propterea vos non auditis quia ex Deo non estis He that is of God heareth the worde of God therefore you heare it not bicause yeare not of God. The true children of God aboue all other thinges yea more than Father mother wife children fréendes yea than their owne life loue God and the hearing of his woorde Otherwise they were not worthie of god Thus do all the shéepe of Christ 〈◊〉 meae vâ—…cem meam audiunt My sheepe heare my voice As the Father hath bidden them Hunc audite c. This is my welbeloued Sonne in whom I am delighted heare him that is to say Leuell all your faith and life by the onely authoritie of his worde Who onely knoweth the Fathers will and in whom all the treasures of his fathers glorie are couched Who is the wisedome of God the truth the way the life and the worde it selfe The Sonne which is in the fathers bosome he hath declared it Heare him Auditus autem per verbum Dei But hearing commeth not by the Mothers authoritie but by the worde of God. Thus did the godly children vnto God whome we call Fathers vnto vs both before in Uigilantius time Nullum imitemur c. Let vs follow none saith Origen and if we will follow any Iesus Christ is set forth vnto vs to follow the Actes of the Apostles are described and we acknowledge the doyngs of the Prophets out of the holy volumes that is the firme example that is the â—…ounde purpose which who so desireth to follow goeth safe Thus also saith Cyprian both for Gods worde for your Mothers ceremonies The Heretike saith let nothing be deuised of newe besides that which is by tradition deliuered From whence came this tradition came it from the authoritie of the Lorde and of his Gospell or came it from the commandements of the Apostles and their Epistles for indeede that those things which are written ought to be done God witnesseth and setteth forth to Iesus of Nauee saying let not the booke of this law departe out of thy mouth but thou shalt meditate therein day and night that thou obserue all things
nâ—…n at Louaine that ye would be thought no hedgeâ—…réeper â–ª nor â—…uedropper as sâ—… of your broode are peaking here in lusâ—…y lanes and lurking in corners and yet they court theÌ„ selues no more Donatistes than you NotwithstaÌ„ding it appeareth for all your crakes bragges ye haue not that stout courage fâ—…r your raâ—…se but that ye like Louaine better than M. 〈◊〉 â—…ging and had rather blow your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like 〈◊〉 lâ—…ytorer in a lusky lane or hide your head 〈◊〉 the corner of an old â—…otten barne rather than warme your selfe with a â—…aggot aâ—… a â—…ake in Smithfielde suche as was the crueltie of your Popish tyrannie to those that constantly abode the terrible brunt therof And although other giuing place to your furie either of their owne infirmitie or that God preserued them to a better oportunitie did then flée or hide them selues what dyd they héerein that Chryst gaue them not licence example and commaundement so to do Ye might aswell obiect this to those Saincts of God of whome S. Paule telleth that they wente about in the wildernesse of whome the worlde was vnworthy Why say ye not Elias lurked in lusky lanes when he sted the face of Iesabell Why say ye not that Athanasius crepte into corners when he hidde him selfe seueÌ„ yeres in a Cesterne an harder harborough than a rotten barne For shame M. Stap. learne to make a difference betwéene the perfecution and the cause of it or else this were an easie argument to make all Donatistes yea your selues also And would to God all corners rotten barnes and luskie lanes were wel ransacked some luskes I think would appeare in their likenesse whom ye would be loth should be founde out M. Stapleton Thirdly ye say The donatistes when they could not iustifie their owne doctrine nor disproue the Catholikes doctrine leauing the doctrine fell to rayling agaynst the vitious life of the Catholikes In this poynt who be Donatistes I referre me to Luthers and Caluines bookes especially to M. Iewell and to your owne Apologie Ye nâ—…ede not M. Stap. referre your selfe so farre referre your selfe to your selfe a Gods name yea go no further than this your Counterblast I warrant ye you blow such a blast héerein that ye maye well encounter master D. Harding master D. Saâ—…ders M. Dorman M. Marshall or any other of your writers thoughe they haue all godly giftes in this poynt yet this your Rhel horicall grace of rayling goeth so farre beyonde them all that they are scarse worthy to cary the wispe after you M. Stap. Onely at this I maruell that like the wiseman when he tolde how many were in the companie he neuer reckoned him selfe that you hauing so pregnant a vayne héerein do still forget your selfe But belike it is for this cause that as ye surmount all your companie so ye goe beyonde the Donatistes also who as ye saye rayled onely agaynst the vitious lyues But you where ye finde no vitious life to rayle agaynst the Protestantes fall to slaundering and reuiling euen their godly and vertuous liues Fourthly ye say The Donatistes refused the opeÌ„ knowne catholike Churche and sayde the Church remayned onely in those that were of their side in certaine corners of Afrike And sing not you the like song preferring your Geneua VVittenberge before the whole Churche beside The Donatistes as you say M. St. tied the Churche to Affrike and wrested the scripture for it forsaking the open knowne catholike Church in déede But you shoulde haue proued your popish Church to be that open knowne catholike Church now which they refused then If ye saye you proue that bicause they refused the church of Rome then your church is the church of Rome now if ye vnderstaÌ„d the church for the coÌ„gregation of the faythful ye vtter a double vntruth For they-refused not only the coÌ„gregation then at Rome but of al the world besides and agayne your church or congregation of Rome now is nothing the same or lyke the same in religion that it was then If ye meane by the church of Rome the Citie of Rome and the Popes chayre there then ye proue your selues to be Donatistes that tye the churche of Christ dispersed euery where to the seate of Rome as they did vnto Aphrike And if ye meane by the open knowne catholike Churche the multitude of people acknowledging your Popes sâ—…ate at Rome then agayne are ye Donatists by your second poynt in craking of multitude depending on Rome a corner in Italie as ye saye the Donatistes craked of their multitude depeÌ„ding on their corners in Affrike As for vs we depende neither vpon Geneua nor VVittenberge nor tye the Church of Christ vnto them nor preferre them either before the whole catholike church or any parte thereof nor referre men vnto them for the triall of the Church or to any other place else but allow them and all and singuler other places where the worde of God is sincerely set fooâ—…th where Idolatrie errours superstition are abolished We 〈◊〉 to the mountaynes as Chrysostome expoundeth it Quâ—… sunt Christiani conferant se ad scripturaâ—… They that are ChristiaÌ„s let them get them to the scriptures And why not to Rome Ierusalem and suche other mountaynes but onely to the scriptures Bicause saith he since that heresie hath possessed the Churches there caÌ„ be no triall of true christianitie nor refuge of Christians that would trie out the truthe of fayth but the deuine scriptures Before it coulde haue bene knowne diuers wayes whiche was the Church which was Gentilitie But nowe there is none other wayes to know which is in deede the very church of Christ but all onely by the Scriptures If they therefore set foorthe the Scriptures we acknowledge them to be of the Church of christ Let Rome doe this and we will as gladly acknowledge Rome to be of the Churche of Chryst as either Wittenberge or Genâ—…ua â–ª Yea as S Hierome sayth which is also put in the Popes owne decrées Eugâ—…bium Constantinople Rhegium Alexandrie Thebes Guarmatia or any other place if it professe the truthe with Geneua and Wittenberge For on this consideration sayth S. Augustine the Churche is holy and catholike not bicause it dependeth on Rome or any other place nor of any multitude obedient to Rome bothe whiche are Donatisticall but quia recte credit in DeuÌ„ bicause it beleeueth rightly on God. This is our song M. Stap. of Geneua VVittenberge Affrica yea and of Rome too And if you can sing any better note I giue you good leaue for me onely I would wish you howsoeuer ye sing to leaue your flat lying tune in saying Fifthly say you The Donatistes corrupted the fathers bookes wonderfully and were so impudent in alleaging them that in their publique conference at Carthage they pressed muche vpon Optatus wordes and layde him foorth as an author making for theÌ„ who yet wrote expresly against them and in all
mightie defences That which was pulled downe thou haste made vp agayne and haste made the same whole and sounde agayne with a conuenient knitting togither of all the partes and members To be shorte thou haste saythe Nicephorus to the Emperour established true religion and godlynesse with spirituall butresses namely the doctrine and rules of the auncient fathers These are the Bishops allegations out of Nicephorus for this Princes dealing in ecclesiastical matters Wherin are comprehended as eche man may sée all the chiefe ecclesiasticall causes The true religion the sincere fayth the diuine doctrine godlynesse making constitutions the fathers rules the catholike vniuersal church Neither ascribeth he to the Prince herein a power LegaÌ„tine froÌ„ Priest Byshop Patriarke or Pope muche lesse to be their onely executioner but vnder God he giueth him a supreme gouernement in calling him not onely the defender but the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay the guyde the restorer the clenser the establisher the entrencher and maker vp of all these things On the contrarie the puller downe and banisher of newe deuises counterfeit naughtie vnlawfull and impure doctrines of horrible errors and heretical deprauers And this his chief dealing herein to be most seemely for him and chiefly belonging to his princely office Dothe all this M. Stap. little or nothing further our cause if it doe not then it lyttle or nothing hindreth yours Why graunte ye not then vnto it if ye graunte but thus muche we wil vrge you little or nothing further for what is not héere conteined that is either conteined in the issue betwéene the Bishop and M. Feck or in the othe of the O. Maiesties supremacie that ye refuse to take But as light as yâ—… would séeme to make of this it pincheth you and ye dare not grauÌ„t nor answere any sentence therof Onely ye giue a snatche at a worde and bayte at the bishops marginal note vpoÌ„ these former allegatioÌ„s Wherin ye play like Alciates dogge at whom when one hurled a stone he let go him froÌ„ whom the stone came wreaked his anger on the stone So set you vpon the marginall note that in déede hitteth you a good souse but the allegations from wheÌ„ce the marginal note doth come ye let alone and fal to tugging of the note Only as I saide ye snatche at a word as though all the weight of the marginall note were setched only from thence and not from all these sentences But say you M. Home will not so leese his long allegation out of Nicephorus He hath placed a note in the margine sufficient â—… trow to conclude his principall purpose And that is this The Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed This is indeede a ioly marginall note But where findeth M Horne the same in his text for soothe of this that Nicephorus calleth the Emperour the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so horrible wauering c. of the worde supreme anchor he concludeth a supremacie But O more than childishe follie Coulde that craftie Cooper of thys allegation informe you no better master Horne was he no better seene in Grammer or in the profession of a schole master than thus foully and fondely to misse the true interpretation of the Latine worde for what other is suprema anchora in good Englishe than the laste anchor the laste refuge the extreme holde and staye to rest vpon As suprema verba doe signifie the laste wordes of a man in hys laste wyll as summa dies the laste daye supremum iudicium the laste iudgement with a number of lyke Phrases So suprema anchora is the laste anchor signifying the laste holde and staye as in the perill of tempeste the laste refuge is to caste anchor In suche a sense Nicephorus calleth this Emperour the laste the mightie and the holy anchor or stay in so horrible wauering and errour Signifying that nowe by him they were stayed from the storme of schisme as from a storme in the sea by casting the anchor the shippe is stayed But by the metaphore of an anchor to conclude a supremacie is as wyse as by the Metaphore of a Cowe to conclude a Saddle For as well dothe a saddle fitte a Cowe as the qualitie of an anchor resemble a supremacie But by suche beggerly shiftes a barren cause muste be vpholded First all is saide by the way of amplification to extoll the Emperour as in the same sentence he calleth him the sixt element reaching aboue Aristotels fifte body ouer the foure elementes with suche lyke Then all is but a Metaphore which were it true proueth not nor concludeth but expresseth and lightneth a truth Thirdly the Metaphore is ill translated and last of all worsse applied A sirra M. St. héere is a whot sturre and highe wordes A man would thinke all is nowe answered to the full and yet when all coÌ„mes to all héere is nothing of all this a do agaynst any one sentence of the Byshops allegations But the poore marginall note and one poore séelie worde of all these long allegations shall abye for this geare First ye say M. Stapl. that M. Horne will not so leese his long allegation out of Nicephorus What ye meane by leesing I know not But it appeareth he may leâ—…e or finde them all for any thing ye wil answere to them Ye slinke for the nonce to the marginall note which is this The Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed This is in deede say you a ioly marginal note but where findeth M. Horne the same in his texte forsoothe of this that Nicephorus calleth the Emperour the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so horrible wauering of the worde supreme anchor he concludeth a supremacie Is there nothing M. Stap. in all these allegations that ye coulde sée wherfore the Bishop set downe his marginal note of the Princes supremacie in repayring religion decayed but onely this sentence yea onely that worde do not all the other sentences importe as muche as this that he is the guyde of the profession of our fayth the restorer of the catholike and vniuersall Church the banisher from the Church of all vnlawful and impure doctrine the clenser of the temple with the worde of truth froÌ„ choppers and changers of the diuine doctrine and from hereticall deprauers thereof That he is the entrencher of true religion with mightie defences That he is the establisher of the doctrine and maker of constitutions for the same that he is the maker vp agayne the maker whole and sounde agayne of al that was pulled downe Might not all this to an indifferent reader be thought sufficient to answere the marginal note and comprehende in all poyntes as muche as the note yea though ye quite set aside the sentence and word wherat ye wrangle And yet with M. Stap. this one sentence must beare the weight of all that the bishop alleaged the mightie supreme and very holy anchor and stay in so
alleaged c. and all thinges else that is here alleaged yet all will not reache home 68. a. VVhich aunswere of his may satisfie any reasonable man for all that ye bring in here of Constantine or all that ye shall afterwarde bring in c. 68. b. VVhich I am assured all Catholikes will graunt 68. b. Giue to Caesar that belongeth to Caesar and to God that beloÌ„geth to God â–ª which later clause â–ª I am assured doth much more take away a supreme regiment in all causes ecclesiasticall than necessalily by force of any wordes binde vs to pay yea any tribute to our Prince 69. b. VVe plainly say that this kinde of supremacie is directly against Gods holy worde 70. a. VVhat can ye conclude of all that ye haue or shall say to win your purpose 74. a. I say that if Saint Augustine were aliue he woulde say vnto you as he saide vnto Gaudentius 74. b. Neither this that ye here alleage out of place nor all the residue which ye reherse of this Constantine c. can import this superioritie as we shall there more at large specific In the meane season I say it is a stark most impudeÌ„t lie 75. b As I haue at large in my returne against master Iewels fourth article declared 77. b. VVhat honour haue ye got what honour haue you I saye wonne by this or by the whole thing it selfe 78. a. And shal we now M. Horne your antecedeÌ„t being so naught the consequent ye will hereof inferre nay pardie 79. a b. VVell I will leaue this at your leasure better to bee debated vpon betwixt you and master Foxe 80. a. Ye are a verie poore sielie clearke farre from the knowledge of the late reuerende fathers Bishop VVhite and Bishop Gardiner 80. a. That I may a little roll in your rayling Rhetorike hearken good master Horne I walke not and wander as ye doe here c. I go to worke with you truely plainly and particularly I shewe you by your owne Emperour and by plaine wordes 81. b. Hitherto ye haue not brought any one thing worth a good strawe to the substantiall prouse of your purpose 82. a. I am right well assured ye haue not proued nor neuer shall be able to proue in the auncient Church while ye liue 82. b. I walke not in confuse and generall wordes as you do 82. b. To all these facings and crakes though many of them be particularly aunswered as occasion requireth these his owne wordes may suffise for aunswere All men knowe that your great vauntes are but wordes of course to saue your poore honestie 1. Pref. pag. 23. Bicause he quarelleth so much with the Bishop as for other things so for his Rhetorike as also Doctour Harding and his fellowes vpbrayde likewise vnto Bishop Iewell his Rhetorike and master Dorman to master Nowell I haue therefore set downe as one of his chiefest common places a briefe note or two by the way to shewe wherein our master Stapletons flourishing Rhetorike doth most consist His obiections of Rhetorike AS for your Rhetorike ye woorke your matters so handsomly and so perswasiuely c. what a newe Cicero or Demosthenes are you 1. Pref. pag. 6. 7. His chiefest floures of Rhetorike partly nothing but copia verboruâ—… an heape of needlesse wordes partly nothing but rolling on a letter With which Rhetorike thou shalt 〈◊〉 his whole booke so poudred that it should be superfluous to trouble thée with any exacter collection of theÌ„ being in effect nothing else but â—…rs bahlatiua Only I will giue 〈◊〉 a light taste thereof throughout his whole volume and the rest thou 〈◊〉 continually finde as thou readest his Counterblast His fift common place of flourishing Rhetorike IT is the Castle of your Profession the Key of your Doctrine the principal Fort of all your Religion the piller of your authoritie the fountaine of your iurisdiction the ankerholde of all your proceedings 1. Pref. pag. 1. Your cause is betrayed your doctrine dissolueth your whole Religion goeth to wracke the want of this right shaketh your authoritie stoppeth your iurisdiction and is the vtter ship wracke of all your proceedings 2. Haue I not grounded this worke c. haue I not posted it c. haue I not furnished it c. haue I not fenced it c. haue I not remooued all c. an outward shewe and countenance a gay glorious glistring face a face I say all is but a face and a naked shewe 3. Most miserably and wretchedly pinched pared and dismembred Most shamefully contaminated depraued and deformed 12. A mishapen lumpe of lewde and lose arguments 5. VVith like good Logike ye lay forth 6. The truth is dayly more and more opened illustred and confirmed 8. T. Turkish trecherie L. Lauashing language 14. B. Bluster and blow F. Fume and freat R. Raile and raue as L. Lowdlyas lewdly as B. Beastly as boldly c. ye B. Bluster not so boysterously as ye L. Lie most lewdly 15. A H. Happie happe for master Horne that happed c. S. Such slender circumstances to M. Minister him matter of such T. Trifling talke 6. b. A prerogatiue appropriate to the Prelate 7. b. You will happly forsake and abandoÌ„ Saint Augustines authoritie with the olde C. Canons and Councels and 〈◊〉 vnder the defence of your B. Brittle Bulwarke 8. b. A pretie legerdemaine played and a leafe put in at the printing which was neuer proposed in the parliament c. what Parliament haue your preachers 9. a. b. O poore and siely helpe O miserable shift c. This is to trouble all things this is as it were to confounde togither heauen and earth 9. a. VVhie good sir make ye such post haste what are you so soone at the ende I see your haste is great VVhat will you leape ouer the hedge ere ye come at it And I might be so bolde I woulde faine demaunde of you the cause of your hastie posting Perhaps there is some eye sore or somewhat that your stomacke cannot beare Grieueth it you to heare Doth it appall you to heare c. Doth it dasell and amase you to heare c. Doe yee take it to the heart Master Horne â–ª Is it a corsey to you Is there yet any other lurking sore priuily pinching your stomack I trow it nipped you at the very heart roote 212. b. 213. a. b. VVhie master Horne can your eares paciently abide all this can your stomacke digest all this master Horne can ye suffer can ye suffer How chaunce we haue not at the least for your comfort one pretie nippe 287. a. A rascall rablement of monstruous hereticall names A rablement of straunge monstrous hereticall names This rascall rablement of huge monstrous names 317. It is so it is so master Horne c. You can not you may not you shall not c. You sawe you sawe master Horne you master Horne 430. Your horrible dissention glistreth so cleare crieth so lowde and blustreth so great that so long as we haue
the people ignorant least they should discerne them And ye haue sayd of your hypocritiall errours of your â—…ayned myracles and legends of lies latebunt quam diu pâ—…rerunt vâ—…lebunt apud â–ª 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mendaciâ—… The ignorant people will ostéeme such lying to â—…es And therfore we may well returne your conclusion on your selfe that ye be those false Prophets and lying masters such as Saint Peter spake of bringing in wicked and damnable sects God giue them grace which are deceyued by you so well to knowe you as we that do examine your writings haue good cause to know you And thus your wordes of course fathered as ye call it in a luskie lane of some indiuiduum vagum a certaine Protestant of late dayes and for witnesse hereof aske your fellow if it be not so howe well in euery poynt they appeare that as they say the foxe was the first finder to be your owne tootoo open sayinges and doynges to charge vs withall a Gods name hardily let all the worlde be iudge His obiecting of stragling from the matter fo 4. a. Of false alleaging his Authours wordes fol. 5. b. Of omitting and concealing circumstances fol. 7. a. Of deepe silence to aunswere the pith of the matter fol. 8. a. Of obiecting fleshly pleasures fol. 8. b. Of quarelling that our Bishops be no Bishops fol. 9. a. b. Of passing good maners for misreporâ—…ing n. a. Of obiecting conspiracies and sedition fol. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. Remoue them with a writte of returne to the Papists themselues and then they are fully answered This lo at the least sayth M. St. fol. 37. b. heresie worketh in the Church that it maketh the truth to be more certenly knowne and more firmely and stedfastly afterwarde kept so sayth S. Augustine the matter of the Trinitie was neuer well discussed till the Arrians barked agaynst it c. This is truer M. St. than eyther ye wene or would The experience whereof is dayly to be séene in the Papists defending their errors and impugning the truth in their subtile practises in their tyrannicall inquisitions and cruel torments yea euen in this yours and your fellowes volumes striuing to obscure and deface the truth but all these steps notwithstanding the truth is and shal be more and more set forth the Popish errors â—…sse and lesse begutle vs and the kingdome of Antichrist detected and forsaken Fol. 40. a. M. St. telleth vs that S. Greg. Nazianzen saith Verum est ê™ vnum est mendaciuÌ„ auteÌ„ est multiplex The thing which is true is alwayes one like vnto it selfe whereas the lie the cloked and counterfeyt thing is in it selfe variable and diuerse By the which rule here giuen of so learned and graue a father I am here put to knowledge that the Papists not being content with the onely worde of God alwayes one and like it selfe but ioyning thereto mens variable and diuerse vnwritten verities That the Papistes being not content with the true spirituall worship of one God alwayes one like himselfe not with one mediator Iesus Christ but yéelding spirituall worship to Saints and Saints pictures besides God and making other variable and diuerse mediators to God besides Christ that the Papists being not content with the only merites satisfaction of Christs death always one and like itselfe â–ª but deuising variable and diuerse Masses Diriges Pilgrimages and satisfactions besides being not content with the flat scripture alwayes one and like it selfe that testifieth only faith in christ to be the meanes of appreheÌ„ding our iustification but adding variable diuerse infinit workâ—… of their own to deserue their iustification by being not content with the only title profession of Christianitie alwayes one 〈◊〉 like 〈◊〉 but sâ—…tting vp variable diuerse feas professioÌ„s religions names besides be but cloked counterleyy liers â–ª as Greg Nazâ—…n hath most truly said And thus ye sée M. St. how you citing falsly this sentence to proue the â—…variable 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your selfe on â–ª the thumbes Fol. 40. b. Let the King sayth master Stapleton reode on Gods name not onely that booke but all the Bible beside it is a worthie studie for him but let him beware least this sweete honie be not turned into poyson to him c. What wordes are here that we say not also yea his permission of Princes to read and studie the Bible â–ª is our most earnest prayer and exhortation And they whatsoeuer they would seeme nowe to pretende bicause they can no longer keepe it vnder their bushell it is full sore agaynst their heart that Princes should read or studie it Otherwise why suffred they not Princes to giue them selues to so woorthie and commendable a studie heretofore And nowe that they can kéepe it in no longer who it is that turneth this sweete honie of Gods worde into poyson is easie to iudge Whether hée that giueth bread to the hungrie bringing forth the whole loafe of the onely pure wheate and willeth them that are to be fedde therewith to sée to view to féelâ—… the whole and in seasonable time breaketh it to his fellow seruants before their faces that they may fully refresh their hungrie seules or he that beateth his fellowe seruaunts hydeth the loafe from them and if he must néedes giue them some mingleth the pure wheate with his owne branne and that worse is with Darnell and more of that by thrée halues than of the wheate and will néedes haue the receyuer blindfolded nor will suffer him to take it in his owne handes but by gobbet meale thrust it into his mouth nor will let the partie sée what in this sort he crammes him with as though he were worse than the Capon in a coupe and yet for all this will beare him in hande it is the true bread Whether of these twaine be the likelier to giue this poysoned bread no man that hath any witte but will giue a shrewde ayme As for false translations false dangerous and damnable gloses wherewith master St. sayth we haue corrupted and watred the same and made it as it were of pleasant wine most soure vinegar it is so euident on his owne part that the Papistes haue so vsed the Scripture and that so shamefully that it séemeth he is past shame that he dare once mencion it and yet he obiecteth it to vs that admit the expresse scripture without any gloses at all Take heede to your selfe Maister Horne for I say to you that you and your fellowes teache false and superstitious religion manie and detestable heresies and so withall playne idolatrie Blot out these wordes Maister Horne and put in Maister Stapleton and then it is truely sayd Although wée not only say it but proue it also And therfore you and your felowes M. Stapleton had nede to take hede thereto fol 42. a. VVe say you are wicked deprauers of religion c. VVe say ye are as great enimies as euer the Church of Christ had
most herein ye would haue him either beleue first ground him self on your false principles or else would ye sâ—…e beshrew him for traueling one whit therin and fal as fast to besech him to let the matter alone except he wil before hand on your word beleue that this supreme gouernmeÌ„t belongeth to your pope And hauing so gotteÌ„ his grauÌ„t on this which is the coÌ„trouersie it selfe theÌ„ ye besech the gentle reader most diligently to labor trauell in this controuersie But the reader may sée with no great trauell for y matter that as ye â—…etract your duty froÌ„ your prince so ye ascribe a great deale to much to your pope For where to win the reader to your partie ye say that all controuersies in effect depend vpon this Ergo admit this admit al deny this deny al the antecedent in déed in your popish church is true Where they make al articles of religioÌ„ to depend vpoÌ„ him But in christs church it is true of none other but of christ alone Upon whoÌ„ being the corner sâ—…one rock al the building is fouÌ„ded ariseth in whoÌ„ being the only chiefe vniuersal hâ—…d all the members haue lyfe all controuersies in effect depeÌ„d Admit his supreme authoritie admit all his religion Denie his supreme authoritie denie all his religion But it is not so of any limited and secondarie head or supreme gouernour in any particuler Churche of Christians That all articles or any article of fayth dependes on the Princes gouernement but the Princes gouernemeÌ„t depends on them to ouersee them duetifully set foorth And when the Reader séeth this that the Prince claymeth not an absolute Supreme gouernement and that it is your Pope onely that taketh this absolute Supromacie on him and you that giue it him then I trust the reader will not be so wonne with your fayre words which make fooles fayne as he wil abhorre your slaunders on your Soueraigne and detest the open iniurie ye offer to Chryst the onely head to make all Articles depende on your Popes supreme authoritie Nowe whereas for this ambitiouse clayme of your Pope ye alleage here nothing to fortifie the same ye thinke ye shall winne it yet at the least this way if with dispitefull raylings ye may beforehande discredite vs to the Reader and so winne credite to your selfe thereby Ye argue thus The Protestantes whom odieusly and falsly ye deuide into many sects are at mutuall and mortall enemitie among them selues but al conspire agaynst the primacie of the Pope Ergo a good resolution once had in this poynt stayeth and setleth the conscience as vvith a sure and strong anker from the insurgies and tempests of all sects and schismes This argument might as well make for Mahomets religion or any other neuer so false as for the Popes to reason from the aduersaries diuision among them selues or agréement of them selues agaynst his religion to a truthe and perfection in his false religion And thoughe the argument faile alike bothe in the Pope and the Turke yet it holdeth in Christes primacie and onely in him agaynst Pope Turke Sectarie or any other deuided from him Chiefly agaynst the Popish church wherin are diuers infinite sects errours and al at mutuall and mortall enmitie amongst them selues and yet all conspire with the Pope agaynst Christ and his truth Ergo a good resolution once had in Christ his truth stayeth and setleth the conscience as with a sure and strong anker from the insurgies and tempests of all sects and schismes This argument thus framed had bene better and truer and not to make the Popes supremacie or the exalting of any creature in heauen or earth to be the anker holde and stay of our consciences besides Christ and his truthe Which sithence all Papistes do by this your confession they can haue no good resolution resoluing them selues amisse leaning to a broken Réede Where they say Pax pax peace peace non est pax impijs dicit dominus there is no peace of conscience at all nor any sure ankerholde to stay vnto Maledictus qui confidit in boinine poâ—…it carnem brachium suum And therefore if Protestants yea al Sectaries or Schismatikes though they can not agrée amongst them selues yet if they all hate thys moste Antichristian doctrine to grounde their faythe on man no meruayle though they hate it it is so wicked and detestable that euen good and badde and all abhorre it After he hath taken this pro confesso that the anker holde of conscience consisteth in setling him selfe on the Popes primacie he reasoneth on the contrarie effecte Contrary vvise they that be once circumuented and decea ued in this Article are carryed and tossed vvith the raging vvaues and flouds of euery errour and heresie vvithoute stay or setling euen in their ovvne errours True in déede Master Stapleton if ye had rightly shewed withall what it had bene to be circumuented and deceyued in this Article otherwyse ye doe but lyke an vnskilfull and harebrayned Pilote herein that to auoyde the rocke thinketh him selfe sure and safe when he hath caste hys anker on the quickesandes or rather euen in the goulfes mouthe and so I warrant him also as you saye he shall not néede long to feare to bée caryed and tosted wyth the insurgies and tempestes of the ragyng waues and flouddes but soone be swalowed vp and drowned in them But Master Stapleton not considering or not mynding to warne the reader of this to much trusting to a false Pilote but to terrify him further wyth feare of forsakyng this Popishe ankerholde and to confirme thys argument of the contrarie effecte reasoneth from the instancies of dyuers ensamples And first of the Gréeke Churche arguing thus The Grecians forsooke the vnitie of the romaine Church Ergo they fell after to be Arrians Macedonians Nestorians Eutichians c. and in conclusion fell into the Turkishe captiuitie This argument besides other faultes hath chiefly two hoamely and foule fallations that make it vâ—…cious The one à secundum quid ad simpliciter from the Churche of Rome limitted to that tyme that it was not stayned with those errours to the Churche of Rome simplie that since that time hath falne it selfe partlye into some of those errours partly into other as great and many worse The seconde fallacion is à non causa vt causa for theyr fall was into those heresies not bicause they acknowledged not the Bishop of Rome to be their supreme heade for therein they had played like the Flownder that lept out of the frying panne into the fire but bicause they forsooke and peruerted the worde of God as the Papists since haue done and their â—…ares itched and aâ—…iended to the inuentions doctrines errors of men to lying masters as the papists haue done also This was the proper cause of their fall into these errors and of the Papists fal into the like or greater And where M. St. ioyneth to his
turne ye are to gredie man remember that qui cupit totum perdit totum But let vs sée your sixe demaundes whether they be reasonable and to be graunted yea or no. There are therefore say you many thinges to be considered first that Christ lefte one to rule his vvhole Churche in his steade from time to time vnto the ende of the vvorlde Is this your first request to be considered and graunted M. Stapleton now surely a reasonable demaund to be considered vpon And woorthie to haue that Salomon graunted to Adonias for asking of Abisaâ—…g to wife Wise king Salomon saw he might aswell haue asked the crowne from his head yea his head from his shoulders and who so vnwise that seeth not ye might aswell aske the whole controuersie to be graunted you and graunt ye this what néede ye propounde your other principles following How be it let vs sée what they be also Secondly we muste consider ye say that this one vvas S. Peter the Apostle and novv are the Bishops of Rome his successours Out of doubt ye had on some great considering câ—…ppe M. Stapleton when you considered that the Bishop should haue considered this He was much to blame he considered it not but M. Stapl. and ye were as wise as God might haue made you ye would haue better coÌ„sidered with your selfe than to thinke others haue so litle consideration as to graunt ye this your false and foolishe principle Thirdly say you that albeit the Bishop of Rome had no such vniuersall gouernment ouer the vvhole yet that he is and euer vvas the Patriarche of Englande and of the vvhole VVest Church and so hath as much to do here as any other Patriarche in his Patriarchshippe It is a signe M. Stap â–ª ye shrewdly doubte the former twains woulde neuer be graunted that so soone would be content to become a Patriarche of a piece from a Pope of the whole which though it sheweth lesse haughtinesse in you that would play small game rather than sit out yet perchance your Pope is of Alexanders spirite to whome Darius hauing offred halfe his dominions if I were Alexander ê™ Parmenio I would take it so would I ê™ Alexander if I were Parmenio And so perchance your Pope will say to you if I were Master Stapleton I would be content at least to be a Patriarche and perchance a worse rowme woulde serue But beyng the Bishop of Rome he will say Aut Papa aut nihil And therefore least ye get his curse before ye aske our consent the surest way were to know how he will like of this your limitation and when he shal be content then propose it to vs to consider thereon But I see ye like not greatly to stande hereon for fourthly say you Then all vvere it that he had nothing to intermedle vvith vs nor as Pope nor as Patriarche yet can not this supremacie of a ciuill Prince be iustified VVhereof he is not capable especially a vvoman but it must remayne in some spirituall man. Your must is very mustie M. Stapl. and smelleth of the pumpe of Romes ship Your Sequence is as badde the B. of Rome neyther as Pope nor as Patriarche is supreme gouernour in Ecclesiasticall causes in England Ergo No ciuill Prince man or woman is capable of it Againe There must be one spirituall man that must haue an vniuersall gouernment ouer the whole Churche Ergo â–ª A ciuill Prince may haue no particuler gouernement in his particuler Churche The antecedents in déede are true of bothe For neither hath the Pope as Pope or Patriarche or any otherwise any supreme gouernement ouer Englande as you presuppose he had none and yet the Prince both may haue and hath some supreme gouernement ouer vs For in déede all supreme gouernement suche as the Pope vsurped she neither hath nor may haue nor requireth nor belongs to any creature but is due to Christ alone He is that spirituall man that your other antecedent speaketh of if ye meane him it is true if you meane any other it is but your false presupposall though the consequentes whereon we stande followeth neither way neither doe ye laboure once to proue them But is here all things we muste consider no say you for fiftly Besides this the Catholikes say that as there vvas neuer any such president heretofore in the catholike Church so at this present there is no suche excepte in Englande neither among the Lutherans the Suinglians the Suenkfeldians or Anabaptists or any other secte that at this day raygneth or rageth in the vvorlde None of these I say agnyse their ciuill Prince as supreme gouernour in al causes spirituall and temporall Let goe these raging termes of sectes M. Sta. to their common places and I pray ye tell vs once agayne who sayth thus Who euen the Catholikes say so But whome meane you by the Catholiks The Papists Then gentle M. Stap. haue me commended to those your Papisticall Catholikes that ye say say so and aske them agayne if all be Gospell that they do say or no. Tushe man will M Stap. replie will ye not beléeue the Catholikes Why then sixtly and Laste of all I saye and M. Feck vvill also say that euen M. Horne him selfe in this his aunsvvere retreateth so farre back from his assertion of supreme gouernement in all causes spirituall and temporall vvhiche is the state and keye of the vvhole question that he plucketh from the Prince the chiefe and principall matters and causes ecclesiasticall as vve shall hereafter playnely shevve by his ovvne vvordes This geare goeth harde indéede The B. is nowe driuen to asore straight But syr might a man be so bolde to aske your mastership what are you and M. Feck are ye not Catholikes that when ye haue saide the catholikes say so ye come rushing in say Last of all I say and M. Feck vvill also say you make vs doubte least ye be no Catholikes and withall to suspect when ye cal your selfe and your client M. Feck to witnesse some partialitie in your sayings least the sole will holde with the shoe and that as two false witnesses came in agaynst our sauiour Christ with I say so and he vvill say so also so woulde you compact togither to slander the B. herein with I say so and M. Feck vvil say so also But by both your leaues may I be so bolde as to set your I say so and his I say so also asyde and desire ye to proue your so saying Why say you doubt ye of that we shall here after plainly shevve it by hys owne vvordes These are but vvords M. Stap. and ioly promises if ye can shevve it so playnly why shevve ye it not playnly here where ye say it so playnly or else haue shevved at the least where the B. doth thus which till ye shall playnely shewe this your â–ª bolde and playne saying may be suspected for a playne lye But M. Stap. shaking of the further
you say for the which I referre me to all autentike and auncient recordes as well of Englande as of other nations Ye say well herein master Stapleton and we take your offer And fiâ—…st let vs sée for other Nations Did Iames euen the first Bishop of Hierusalem acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome Was he confirmed by the same Sea when as yet the same Sea was not to be acknowledged or be confirmed by If as you say the B. can be no prelate of the Gaâ—…ter being no prelate at all how could that Sea be acknowledged that was not at all Moreouer do ye thinke that Timothie Bishoppe of Ephesus or Titus of Crâ—…ta and all other Bishoppes of Asia or Grece that Sainte Paule made acknowledged the supremacie of the Sea of Rome or were confirmed by the same when Sainte Paule that ordeyned them sayeth he receyued his authoritie of no man And when he came to Rome he neyther came to haue his Bishops confirmed of the Sea of Rome nor he founde anye Sea there nor sought Peter for the saide purpose else where nor thought himselfe any whitte inferiour to him much lesse thought he of any suche supremacie eyther of his Sea or him Nowe if the first and originall of all those Bishoprikes Eastwarde neyther acknovvledged anye supremacie of that Sea nor were confirmed by the same What plea can you make of theyr succession If they swarued from theyr predecessours and first founders your selfe confesse it is no good succession but a newe sewte and race And if it be good and lawfull succession that the Bishops of the East Churches succeded by then neyther acknowledged they anye supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same euen which not onelye the true autentyke and auncient recordes doe testifie howe they agréed although in sayth yet nothing lyke in disciplines rytes and orders to whiche the Romaine Sea doth sweare all those Bishoppes that are confyrmed by it and acknowledge obedience therevnto But also euen to this daye thoughe one or two Bishoppes nowe and then of late time for verye necessitie and hope of reliefe haue runne to the Sea of Rome yet by theyr ordinarie and customable succession euen from the Apostles times so long as they continued Christian neuer acknowledged they the supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same The like recordes for the Churches southward remaine not only of their beginnings from the other Apostles not from the Sea of Rome but also of their continuance howe they woulde not admitte anye supremacie of the same Sea ouer them and what contention they had thereabout As for their confirmations that they had them not from the sea of Rome but euen from the Emperour yea the Bishop of Rome himselfe and other from their princes the practise when we come thereto shall shewe And as east warde and southwarde so may we like wise reason of the Church westward where S. Paule after he had bene two yeare at Rome by the space of tenne yeares trauelled in Italie Spaine and Fraunce as witnesse Eusebius Epiphanius Ierome Euthalius Diaconus Nicephorus Beda Platina yea Frier Perionius that wrote the other daye de vitâ—…s Apostolorum that in Langue doâ—… he made a Bishoppe at Narbona who trauelled after with him in Spaine And if in all that space as it is most likely he made other Bishops shall we suppose they were not full Bishops till they had their Bulles from the Sea of Rome And if the first B. did not so your reason of succession fayleth So that your maior is false concerning other Nations Now let vs briefly sée howe it likewise fayles for England And as you say Namely in the foresayde Sea of VVinchester that from the first grafting and planting of the fayth in England there was not no not one in that Sea that did not acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome and was not confirmed by the same vntill the late time of master Poynet who otherwise also was but an vsurper the true Bishop then liuing by no lawful or ecclesiasticall order remoued or depriued The lawfull order and sufficient causes of B. Gardeners depriuation is extant and sette out in the booke of Monumentes Howe true a Bishop as ye call him he was if the acknowledging of obedience to the Sea of Rome bée an argument of a true Bishop his booke de vera obedientia of true obedience doth declare and almost all the time of his bishopriche he neuer acknowledged the supremacie to apperteine to the Sea of Rome but to the prince as the Bishop now doth there néede no recordes for the matter And as for olde recordes since the first grafting and planting of the faythe in Englande whiche is farre longer than eyther from your Apostle monke Augustine or from Birinus Bishop of Winchester the recordes do testifie howe the Christians whome your Augustine and his mates founde in thys Realme neyther kept the ceremonyes and rytes of the Romaine Churche nor admitted the Legantine authoritie of your sayde Apostle which argueth that theyr Bishoppes acknowledged not as you saye the supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same euen from Lucius till almost King Arthures tyme when the Heathen Sarons so preuayled in the west parts that euen in Winchester in King Arthures reigne Cerdicius erected a Temple of Heathen Idolles falsely called yet to this daye the Temple of Dagon as the olde recordes doe mention And therefore your maior is false for Englande also Now M. St. séeing the falsenesse of this argument of succession to be such that he dare not abide the triall of his recordes he flyeth from it and graunteth at the length the B. vocation to be good and sownd Yet hath he a stronger reason to disable him which is this No heretike ought to be admitted to a Byshops roome or if he be he forthwith ought to be remoued But for that yee are yoked or as ye pretende maryed ye are no doubt an Heretike Ergo were your vocation good and sounde yet haue you disabled your selfe to occupie that roome and eyther ought not to be admitted or forthwith ought ye to be remoued I aunswere the maior iâ—… true and if it were as truely executed none should better féele it than the popish prelates who confesse them selues not only for other Seas but euen for their hed and mother sea of Rome that diuers hereâ—…ikes haue bene B. thereof Who being so admitted I demaunde with Piers PlowmaÌ„ of you M. St. by this your maior who shall hang the Bell about the rattons necke who shall remoue an heretike Bishop of Rome I thinke it will belong or euer he remoue him selfe The minor of this argument is of the diuels sophisâ—…rie so S. Paule calleth it doctrinam daemoniorum and sayth let a B. be the husbande of one wife and so was Saint Peter who ye say was your first Bishoppe of Rome And yet neither was Saint
spirituall Churche so on thys principle you gather a moste false assumption That the heads of this spiritual or mystical body the church of Christ are vicars parsons byshops archbyshops patriarkes and ouer them all the Pope In which assumption ye take for true grauÌ„ted sundry manyfest errors flatly of vs denied chiefly foure The first about the spirituall and mysticall body of christ Wherin ye shew great vnskill not knowing what is ment by the spiritual mystical body For in that respect as there are no ciuil princes emperours kings or quéenes so there ar no Bishops neither no not Greke nor Scythian Gentile nor Iew neither male nor female but all the elect that haue bene are or shall be either in heauen aboue or here dispersed in any parte of the earth without any respect of person are al members and Christ the only head And so M. St. your selfe also call it the kingdome of the faythfull so that if any bishop be vnfaithful he is so far from beeing a head in this misticall corporation that he is no member or any part therof And your selfe confessed before that now theÌ„ your Pope was no good maÌ„ neither therfore vnfaithful hauing not the true liuely effectual faith in Christ as they only haue that be meÌ„bers of this body wherby he is quite excluded froÌ„ it Your first error therfore is in not discerning betwéene the inuisible and visible estate of the Church Secondly taking it as after contrarie to your former sayings ye seeme to expounde it to be the visible estate of the church saying coÌ„moÌ„ly called Christes catholike church then erre ye in that ye say vicars parsons bishops archbyshops and popes be rulers and heades of it For excepting parsons taking them for pastors Bishops the scripture knoweth none of thâ—…se rulers The other titles haue come in since with deanes archâ—…eacoÌ„s abbots priors cardinals patriarches c. although I speake not against the names of theÌ„ no not of the name of Pope neither which béeing well vsed I reueriÌ„ce admit but against the Popish hierarchie proud abuse of them And therfore thirdly where ye say the Pope is ouer them all that he is so ouer all those degrées in your Churche I graunte ye but that he is so ouer those or any other degrées in the true visible Churche of Christ it is but your facing maner to take that for confessed that is chiefly denyed Fourthly that ye affirme the Pope and his Prelates gouernemente chiefly to serue for the furtheraunce and encrease of the Spirituall kyngdome of Chryst where it is euident to the contrarie what hauocke and decrease so muche as they can these Rulers make of the members of Christes Churche to maynteine infidelitie and exautorate the worde and kingdome of Christ thereby M. Stap. now presupposing that the christian Princes gouernement is only outward and for the body and coÌ„mon with the heathen and stretcheth no further and that on the other parte the Pope ouer al and his fleshly chaplens vnder him are the heades and meÌ„bers of the spiritual and mysticall body of Christ nowe he will proue and God before that this gouernement of the pope his chaplaines is far aboue the kings gouernement and that kings he subiect therto Now sayth he as the soule of man incomparably passeth the body so doth this kingdome the other and the rulers of these the rulers of the other And as the body is subiecte to the soule so is the ciuill kingdome to the spirituall His reason is thus The soule or spirite incomparably passeth the body The kings gouernement is onely for the body and the Priests gouernement onely is for the soule and spirite Ergo the Priestes gouernement incomparably passeth the Kinges As this argument is noughte so the conclusion béeing rightly vnderstoode dothe noughte infirme the Princes supreme gouernement ouer all ecclesi causes For thoughe the maior be true the minor is moste false that the kinges gouernement is onely for the body Yea though the spirituall gouernement be onely the Priestes yet the gouernement ouer spirituall matters and matters apperteyning to the soule may still for all that and dothe belong euen ouer the Priests to the Prince Neither dothe M. St. proue the coÌ„trarie or alledge ought for his minor than as we haue heard the foresaide principles of limiting the Princes gouernement to be all one with the Turkes But you might haue done well M. Stap. to haue eâ—…sed your paynes euen here and haue troubled your selfe no further to proue your matter if these your vaine presupposals be such true and vndoubted principles But as though we had alredy graunted them M. St. still goeth on To the which kingdome sayth he as well Princes as other are engrafted by baptisme and become subiects to the same by spirituall generation as we become subiectes to our princes by course and order of natiuitie which is a terrestrial generation The argument is thus As the childe that is borne by a terrestriall generation in the earthly Princes kingdome is subiect to the earthly Prince so euen the Prince being borne againe by spirituall generation is become subiect to the spirituall kingdome But the rulers of the spirituall kingdom are the pope c. Ergo the Prince is become subiect to them Thus fondly still ye reason on your principle in so much that we can say nothing agaynst you But nowe while ye thinke ye may say what ye will sodenly see how ye haue ouerturned these your mightie principles with a trippe of your owne contrarie sayings euen in the same place Furthermore say you as euery man is naturally bounde to defende mainteyne encrease adorne â–ª and amplifie his naturall countrey so is euery man bounde and much more to employ himselfe to his possibilitie towarde the mition and defence furtheranee and amplification of this spiritual kingdome and most of all the princes themselues As such which haue receyued of God more large helpe and facultie toward the same by reason of their great authoritie and temporall sworde to ioyne the same as case requireth with the spirituall sworde Thinke ye this to be true indéede M. St. may we trust you on your wordes then is religion an ende of the Princes gouernment which a little before ye not onely most vntruly denyed but buylded as ye thought iolye arguments therevpon All whiche come nowe downe of themselues with an heaue and hee your selfe pulling awaye the soundation wherevppon they were buylt And nowe ye make an other platforme contrarie to the former which is that Princes moste of all are bounde as those that haue receyued of God more large helpe and facultie towarde the same to employ them selues to their possibilities to these endes to defende mainteyne encrease adorne and amplifie not onely the ciuill peace and prosperitie but much more the spirituall kingdome And ioyne the temporall sworde with the spirituall sworde as the case requireth Upon this as a better platforme than the
infidelitie beeing expelled and the furie of discorde remooued I shoulde reuoke the people to the knoweledge of faythe and to the â—…eloweshippe of the Catholyke Churche who serued errour vnder the name of Religion Lo master Stapleton here ye sée farre other endes of the ciuile gouernment of Christian Princes than as you most falsely and iniuriouslye alleage to preserue them from all outwarde iniuryes oppressions and enemyes and further to preserue them for theyr safetie and quietnesse for theyr wealth abundaunce and prosperous maintenaunce and that it tendeth and reacheth no further And that thys is common as well to the heathenishe as the Christian gouernement Fye for shame master Stapleton that euer suche heathenishe woordes shoulde procéede out of your catholyke lips But ye are halfe ashamed I sée and woulde mollifie the matter so muche as ye can with a proper qualification that those thinges which these godly Princes did although they did them yet therein were they no more but Aduocates and so saye you All good Princes doe and haue done ayding and assisting the Churche decrees made for the repression of vice and errors for the maintenance of vertue true religion Not as supreme gouernors themselues in all causes spirituall and temporall but as faythfull Aduocates in ayding and assisting the spirituall power that it may the sooner and more effectually take place As ye bring this shifting distinction of Aduocate to late M. Stap. hauing before quite debarred the Princes Ciuill gouernement of goyng anye iote further than ye there did bounde it to meddle no further wyth ayding and assisting the spirituall power than a Saracene doeth ayde and assist it gyuing Princes no more leaue to be Aduocates thereof than ye make the Turke or Souldan saying this theyr so limitted gouernement is common as well to both Heathen as Christian euen so this your office of Aduocateshippe came to late into the Churche by manye yeares to debarre anye of these forenamed Princes in theyr owne supreme gouernement aboute 〈◊〉 matters to make it sownde as though they onely had béene the ayders assisters or Aduocates vnto others and not them selues the doers Whereas on the contrarie they were the verye doers thoughe not of those actions that appertâ—…yned to the Ministers offices yet of the gouerning and directing bothe the Ministers and their actions yea and the principall ouerséers and supreme rulers of them as euen their déedes and wordes before rehearsed plainly declare As for thys shyft of Aduocation was long sithence after theyr tymes deuysed Whiche office of Aduocateshippe séemeth to bée deâ—…yued from this fonde errour of the Papistes that the seculer power is immediately and primarelye as they terme it in the Pope but he hath not also immediatelye the exercise or execution of it but gyueth that to the Prince and so the Prince becommeth the Popes Aduocate or rather his executioner And thus was first say they Carolus Magnus Pope Adrians Aduocate executing the Byshoppe of Romes will agaynste Desiderius King of Lumbardie Wherevpon Charles was made Emperour by the Pope notwithstanding Michaell the Emperour was then lyuing at Constantinople Propter hoc dicunt sayeth Dante 's Aligherius quòd omnes qui fuerunt Romanorum imperatores post ipsum ipse Aduocatâ—… Ecclesiae sunt debent ab Ecclesia aduocari For thys thyng all that were Emperours of Rome after hym and hee hym selfe are Aduocates of the Churche and oughte of the Churche to be called vpon Lupolous de Babenberge also telleth that Pope Zacharie declarauit c. declared or pronounced that Childericus Pepins master shoulde be deposed and Pepine be made the King of Fraunce whome when Pope Steuen the seconde annoynted with his sonnes Carolus and Carolomanus French Kings Ipsos specialiter elegit sayth Lupoldus ad sedem Apostolicam defendendam Ex hac electione putoque reges imperatores Romanorum sint vsque in hodiernum diem ecclesia Romanae aduocati de qua Aduocatia loquuntur iura canonica He chose them especially to defende the Apostolicall Sea. Of this election I thinke it commeth that Kinges and Emperours of the Romaynes are euen to this daye the Aduocates of the Romayne Churche of whiche Aduocacie speake the Canonicall lawes Thus you sée the originall of your deuised Aduocateship commeth nothing neare the examples of the sayde godly Princes béeing themselues supreme gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters before your Aduocateshippe was first hatched No reason therefore the Punie shoulde debarre the Seniour And yet it is but a sielie shift of your Canonistes descant rather detecting the vnlawfull encroching of the Pope than defeating anye parte of the Princes authoritie in this hys supreme gouernement As for those Princes Carolus Magnus his sonnes and other Emperours since theyr tymes were nothing suche Aduocates as your Pope and you woulde nowe pretende that is to say to be your onelye executioners But as these stories testifie euen these Aduocates also were the chiefe directours and supreme gouernours of all those things they did Yea the Pope hym selfe so well as anye other Byshoppe in theyr territoryes was subiecte to them They ayded and assisted the Byshoppe of Rome I graunt when he humblie aduocated then he called vppon them for ayde and assystance agaynst the wrongers of him But the Pope by commaundement called them not and they obeyed his calling and so became his aduocates which is cleane contrarie to an aduocates office And therefore once agayne your argument is nought They were aiders and aduocates Ergo not supreme gouernours But M. St. will further proue by his former ensamples why this supreme gouernement can not appertayne to the Prince For this supreme gouernement sayth he can he not haue vnlesse he were him selfe a spirituall man no more than can a man be master of a shippe that neuer was a mariner A maior that neuer was a citizen Hys principal gouernement resting in ciuill matters and in that respecte as I haue sayde he is supreme gouernour of all persons in his Realme but not of all their actions but in suche sense as I haue specified and least of all the actions of spirituall men especially of those which are most appropriate to them which can not be vnlesse he were him selfe a spirituall man. You frame your similitude very vnproportionably M. Stap â–ª from the master of a shippe or the maior of a citie to a Prince or supreme gouernour Either of these béeing particuler offices vnder a supreme gouernour that maketh lawes euen both for maiors in cities and masters of shippes also â–ª And albeit no argumeÌ„t builded on similitudes is firme to proue or improue any controuersie though rightly applied they may lighteÌ„ the matter to him that assenteth but not enforce it to him that denieth notwithstanding your similitudes as they proue nothing so they nothing lighten but more obscure the matter yet if these your similitudes were admitted froÌ„ maior and pilot to supreme gouernour what true conclusion can ye inferre vpon
them when both the ensamples that ye make your similitude from and the matter that ye apply them too are false For a man may be master of a shippe though he neuer was a maryner in the shippe and also â—…e made the Maior of the towne wherein he was neuer citizen before As many a noble or gentleman is made the captayne of a forte of a towne or an armie that neuer was prest before a souldier and yet a good captayne to hauing the knowledge howe to gouerne souldiers though he him selfe were none Yea to draw néerer than mariners Maiors captaines reade ye not that S. Ambrose was neuer so much as any of the clergie and that more is no not baptized yet he was a better byshop than the best bishop of the Romish making now or than the byshop of Rome him selfe yea your holy Pope Felix 5. was he before he was Pope any other than as ye call it a méere lay man neither Cardinall Byshop Priest nor had so much that we reade of as your benet collet and therfore your examples are not true of Maior Pilot that they must haue bene citizen mariner before And yet where herevpon ye would néedes haue christian Princes to be spirituall men if they should be supreme gouernours of spiritual matters it is graunted you and so they be And if you thinke godly christian Princes not to be spiritual but vtterly voyde of spiritualnesse then is this in you a lying and carnall spitefulnesse All godly Princes yâ—…a all godly persons are spiritual and that muche better than any shaued or oyled massing priest But if ye meane after the common distinction those that haue any spirituall office in the ministerie of the worde and sacraments as deacons elders byshopâ—… c. then your similitude as is before declared fayleth Such Offices are not necessarie to haue gone before in a Supreme gouernour ouer them although the knowledge is necessarie how to gouerne them Besides this the proportion of your similitude fayleth in that to proue a supreme gouernour should withall be a spiâ—…ituall man yoâ—… alledge ensamples of suche gouernours as be not but haue bene suche or suche persons before and so from the master which hath bene a maryner and nowe iâ—… â—… master you conclude the prince béeing a gouernour in spiritual matters should withal be a spiritual person Neither doth the proportion hold in the necessarie relation of the similitude from a Maâ—…or to his citizen from a master of a ship to a mariner seruing in the ship which hath relation froÌ„ the gouernours to the parties in their offices gouerned to any like relation betwéene a supreme gouernour ouer eccl. causes persons to a spirituall person â–ª but from a spirituall gouernour to a spirituall subiect this were the right relation Now the Prince néedeth neither to haue bene a spiritual subiect nor yet a spirituall person in your common sense of spiritualtie neither so claymeth he to be a spirituall gouernour And therefore neither the ensamples of your similitude nor the proportion holdeth But sée how still your owne tale ouerturneth your selfe For if his principall gouernement resteth in ciuil matters as immediatly ye say that in that respect he is supreme gouernour of al persons in his realme but not of their actions why is he not of their actions also syth they be ciuil or temporal matters in which respect he is their supreme gouernor is it not bicause though he be their supreme gouernor yet he professeth not all their seueral offices scieÌ„ces handy crafts mysteries or vocations and so is not a dealer in their actions which hindreth nothing his principal gouernemeÌ„t ouer them al that he is nor euer was a prentise of any of their sciences nor practiseth the actions of their callings being all ciuill matters And yet say you truely he hath the principall gouernement in ciuill matters But why then also notwithstanding the prince dealeth not with the actions of spirituall men may he not haue a principall gouernement in spirituall matters thoughe him selfe haue not the spirituall function or office of a spirituall man Doe ye not â—…ée by your owne wordes that to haue a principall gouernement or to be a supreme gouernor ouâ—…r all persons and matters â–ª is one thing and to do all the particuler actions of those persons or matters is another thing not requisite in the supreme gouernour and why then wilfully confounde ye them so often as though we made the Prince the doer of the actions bicause we acknowledge the Prince the gouernour of the matters And why sayde ye before in your last similies that he coulde not be a principall gouernour of any ciuill matters excepte he had bene a doer of the actions and as it were a prentise to the occupation before concluding the like for a gouernour of spiritual persons and causes that he must be a spirituall man and do the spirituall actions But if now béeing better aduised ye perceiue that a man may be a gouernour in ciuil matters and yet be not the doer of the ciuill actions I then conclude likewise for spirituall matters that the Prince may be a supreme gouernour in spirituall causes and yet the same not the doer of the spirituall actions The two vntruthes therfore M. Stap. that ye gather of the Byshop saying VVherefore we haue heere two vntruthes the one in an vntrue definition the other in saying the Prince is supreme gouernour in all causes spirituall are no vntruthes The Byshops definition is clearer and truer than yours Neither haue ye or hitherto coulde ye improue his conclusion with all your ensamples or your similitudes Yea euery similitude that ye haue made béeing throughly weyed hath proued the Byshops conclusion and confuted and contraried your selfe But beside al this we haue sayth M. St. a playne contradiction of M. Horne directly ouerthrowing his owne assertion heere The Bishoply rule and gouernement of Gods Church sayth M. Horne coÌ„sisteth in three poyntes to feede the Church with Gods word to minister Christes Sacraments and to bynde and lose to gouerne the Churche sayth he after this sorte belongeth to the onely office of Byshops and Church ministers and not to Kinges Queenes and Princes The like he hath afterwarde Now then these being by his owne confession the actions that properly belong to Ecclesiasticall persons and the Prince by his sayd confession hauing nothing to do therewith how is it then true that the Prince is the onely supreme head and gouernour in causes Ecclesiasticall Yea in those that do properly belong to persons Ecclesiasticall or by what colour may it be defended that this saying is not plaine contradictorie and repugnant to this later saying which we haue alleaged and whereof we shall speake more largely when we come to the saide place There is no doubt M. St. but ye will recken it vp there at large and here also and in many other places ye still sing Decies repetita placebunt
lesse affectioned than Thomas telling vs that Thomas sayeth plainly that we are obliged and bounde vpon paine of euerlasting damnation to beleeue that the Pope is the only supreme head of the whole Church And yet when he hath all done Thom. plainly sayth not so it is but our Thomas his plaine lye And though Thomas him selfe in that he sayde made also a plaine lye as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 affectioned to the Pope yet shoulde you haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wordes more truely master Stapleton if ye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pressed the Bishop with his authoritie But for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thomas his partialitie woulde soone be 〈◊〉 â—…o 〈◊〉 more weight thereto ye say Saint Thomas proueth his assertion by Cyrill and Mâ—…ximus two notable and auncient wryters among the Gâ—…ans VVherefore it followeth that neyther master Feckenham nor master Horne nor any other Christian man can knowe the contrarie beeing such an euident and daungerous falsehood as importeth eternall damnation Sée howe one Thomas here were it but for name-sake woulde still helpe another Thomas he careth not by what meanes hooke or crooke both belying Thomas and these notable fathers also Where sayd Thomas your wordes aboue alleaged Where had he them out of Cyrill and Maximus where haue Cyrill and Maximus that assertion Shew it and then you cleare your selfe In deede Thomas being a late affectioned writer herein alleageth proufes out of both Cyrill Max. but they proue no such assertion Cyrill hath no such wordes in his booke of Thesaurus and that epistle of Maximus is not extant for ought that I can learne and yet Thomas doth but wrest both their sayings to proue his title that it is of necessitie of saluatioÌ„ to be vnder the B. of Rome The sentence that he fathereth out of Cyril to proue his saying and yet notwithstanding proueth it not is this Itaque fratres c. Therefore brethren if wee followe Christ let vs as his sheepe heare his voyce abyding in the Churche of Peter and let vs not be puft vp with the winde of pryde least peraduenture the winding serpent cast vs out for conteÌ„tion as long since it cast Eue out of paradise Can you or Thomas or any other coÌ„clude your assertion or anything for your Pope on this saying ye wil vrge these wordes the Church of Peter Thinke ye he ment the church to be S. Peters patrimonie as ye terme it or the Church of S. Peters dominion if ye so thinke S. Peter hym self gaynsayth it saying that he is him self but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consenior a fellowe Elder or Priest and witnesse of Christes passions and not the Lord but Christ the Lorde of his Church and him selfe with other not to be rulers and princes among the clergy but they be only pastors formes of the flocke Christ alone being the Prince of the Pastors So that if you meane hereby S. Peter to be the owner and Lorde of the Church as your Pope at this day taketh on him to be this sentence maketh nothing for him but quite agaynst him For neither doth the Pope followe the humilitie of Christ nor heare his voyce as Cirill willeth neither followeth he Peter of whome he craketh but is puft vp with the winde of pride Whiche Cirill forbiddeth and therfore is cast out with the winding serpent But what Cirill meaneth by the church of Peter euen the other sentence following may declare of Maximus Coadunatam fundatam super Petram confessionis Petri dicimus vniuersalem ecclesiaâ—… sicundum definitionem saluatoris in qua necessario salutis animarum nostraruÌ„ est remanere ei obedire suam seruantes fidem confessionem VVe call that the vniuersall Church according to the definition of our Sauiour the which is vnited togither and founded vpon the Rocke of Peters confession in the which it is necessarie to remayne for the saluation of our soules and to obey it keeping the fayth and confession thereof This sentence well expoundeth the other The Church of S. Peter that is to say the Church vnited and founded vpon the rocke of Peters confession not of Peters rule and patrimonie but of his confession which Rocke is onely Christe the corner stone on whome onely the Churche is founded and in whome as liuely stories of the buylding we are vnited To this Churche in déede muste we be obedient and remayne in it kéeping the fayth and confession thereof But what doth this proue for the obedience to the Pope his Church dothe it not rather detect his church not to be the vniuersal Church wherof Maximus speaketh that Christ hath defined howsoeuer the Papistes crake of the vniuersall church syth it is not vnited togither on the rocke but on the sands of mens traditions and founded as you say vpon Peter not as Christ sayd vpon the Rocke â–ª Since it kéepeth not this faith confession nor remaineth in it nor obeyeth it it is not Christes true vniuersall Church neither ought we to remayne in it or obey it But as the Angell calleth vs exite de illa populus mens c. Come out of hir my people and be not partakers of hir offences least ye taste also of hir plagues And thus by Maximus saying howsoeuer Thomas as an affectionate late writer doth wrest the same to the obedience of the Pope and his Churche when we examine Christes true definition and Peters confession we finde that we are obliged and bounde to renounce the Pope and his Churche and that vpon payne of euerlasting damnation But nowe M. Stapl. let vs also sée your owne proper argumentes oute of Thomas Thomas sayth the Pope is the only supreme head of the whole Church wherin he quite excludeth Christ Ergo we are obliged and bound to beleeue the same vpon payne of euerlasting damnation Thomas sayth we are obliged and bounde to beléeue the Popes supremacie vpon payne of damnation Ergo the B. is to be charged with malicious and wilfull ignoraunce Thomas sayth we are obliged and bounde to beleeue the Popes supremacie vpon payne of damnation Ergo M. Feckenham is fully and effectually discharged of malicious and wilfull ignorance Thomas his distinction of ignoraunce is alledged of the Byshop Ergo the Byshop is bounde to allowe his authoritie simply in all matters or in this of the Byshop of Romes supremacie Thomas cyteth Cirill and Maximus to proue his assertion Ergo â–ª the matter is so playne that the Byshop nor any other can know the contrarie These writers say so or rather as is shewed are wrested to say that they say not Ergo it is suche an euidente and dangerous falshood as importeth eternall damnation These are the wise and worshipfull conclusions to repeate your owne termes that ye gather on the authoritie of Thomas bicause the byshop cited him in the sayde diuision of ignoraunce wherefore ye say he shall vvinne small vvorship by alleaging of S. Thomas Howbeit you to win much worship and great honor by alleaging him haue aduentured
to lay all your honestie to pledge M. Stapletons seconde parte about vntruthes is answered sufficiently in his bedroll In the third part be confesseth that wherwith the byshop chargeth M. Feck that in king Henries dayes he set foorth this supremacie in his open sermons But withall to excuse him he saith it was not vpon knowledge but vpon very ignorance and lacke of true knowledge and due consideration of the matter â–ª What ignorance cal ye this M. St if it be not malicious it is of simplicitie yea and wilfull carelesnesse withal â–ª yet before ye sayde he was discharged of all three and héere contrarying your own selfe ye charge him again with two of them at the least besides that ye there sayde Surely if there were any ignorance in this poynt it vvere inuincible ignorance by no studie or diligence able to be put away and therfore pardonable But is this suche ignorance when héere ye confesse that he studied not for it but did it without due coÌ„sideratioÌ„ of the matter therfore it was not pardonable eueÌ„ by your own saying Thus while ye would excuse him of ignoraÌ„nce do not only accuse him of ignorance but also declare such great ignoraÌ„ce in your self that it séemeth ye neither well wot nor muche care what ye say so that ye may contende Neither shame you in this poynt whyle ye would mitigate M. FeckeÌ„hams fault to accuse with him of ignoraunce no fewer than all yea the beste learned of the realme then to whom it was not so well knowne ye saye as it is nowe to euery man beeing but of meane learning To the proofe whereof ye cite sir Thomas More that tyll his latter time did neuer of many yeres beléeue the Popes supremacie to be prouided by God and therefore M. Feck with many other good and well learned men otherwise was caried away among them with the violence of this common storme and tempest for lacke of mature and deepe consideration Where as nowe all Papistee suche as haue trauelled in these latter controuersies do beleeue that the Popes primacie was immediatly instituted of God and that it is Iure diuino by Gods lawe and not the Princes supreme gouernment which is now knowne clerely to stand agaynst it Héere is no argument all this whyle for it but onely defacing of their predecessors learning and knowledge to aduaunce their owne which notwithstanding it be nothing comparable in all wyse mens iudgements yet is it worthy to beholde the grosse presumptuous impudencie of these Louanistes that as though they came from the newe Indies that say other men are blinde or haue but one eye and they onely haue two so these wryters pretende they haue suche knowledge nowe yea the meane learned among them as the very best learned before them had not the lyke who were not resolued herein nor sawe so muche as they now do in the Popes authoritie For they haue espied now at the leÌ„gth with their Linxes eyes that the Pope his primarie is de lure diuino of the law of God which thing euen Sir Thomas More did not sée who a great whyle was so blinde herein that he thought it but the Churches institution at length full dimly God wot he thought that he saw it was prouided of God. But nowe euery meane learned Louanist hath espied through a milstone to vse M. Stapletons owne phrase and cleerely seeth and knoweth it is ex lure diuino instituted by God immediatly Who would haue thought they had bene then so blinde vnlesse M. Stapl. had told vs they were so or that our Louanistes had bene waxen so cunning to haue found out of late that they could neuer sée before no doubt they had turned ouer and ouer both the Old and the New Testament many a time and I warrant ye all to haue found out this immediate institution of God and yet was it neuer their happe vnfortunate blinde buzzardes that they were to light on the place of this Institution But now the Bible and Testament hath bene so turned and tossed once againe at Louaine and that with such cléere eye sights that it is plainly founde out yea and so cléere that euery man of meane learning knoweth it that the Pope is supreme head ouer all the whole Church instituted by God immediatly to be obeyed vnder the paine of eternall condemnation O happie man for the Pope whose estimation and welth began so fast to decay that yet at the last hath founde out this institution I warrant ye like to weare a Cardinals hatte M. Stap if you haue had so good lucke to finde this out But I pray you since it is so plaine a place that all your side now cléerely séeth it shew where aboutes in the Bible or Testament it is I haue of purpose turned them ouer ere now also yet could I neuer haue the hap to sée this But I hope your sight be better than mine I pray you tell vs where it is do but quote the place is it not peraduenture on the backe side of your booke for in your booke it is to be doubted ye shal finde no more than could those learned men before you finde out That it was ordayned but Iure humano by the law of man. And where ye crake so much that ye haue now founde it instituted lure diuino by the law of God I am afrayd it will in the ende be found out to haue ben forged 〈◊〉 fraude Diabolâ—…ca by the iniurie and craft of Sathan That it is not Iure diuino by Gods lawe your selfe alleaging no place or proofe besides your onely vaunt fearing ye should be put to the proofe of your crake ye starte from it againe by admitting that if ye could not as ye caÌ„ not proue so much as ye haue made boast of though the Popes primacie say you were not ordeyned of God yet could it not be reiected by any one realme And although the Popes primacie were not grounded directly vppon Goddes worde but ordeyned of the Churche yet could it not be abrogated by the priuate consent of any one or fewe realmes no more than the Citie of London can iustly abrogate an acte of Parliament The sequcle of this argument M. Stapleton is nought by thrée wayes First by presupposing an impossible absurditie that the true Churche of Christ should ordeyne any other necessary doctrine to saluation than God hath ordeyned or is grounded on his woorde The spouse of Christ heareth hir husbande my sheepe saith Christ heare my voice and not the voice of a straunger SecoÌ„dly if this absurditie were admitted that the church of Christ should or could as it caÌ„ not ordeine other things yet should not we be bounde to follow it no though an Angell came from Heauen to teach vs any thing that is not onely contrarie but euen praeter besides the woorde of god And thus the Fathers of the Church theÌ„ selues haue taught vs to reiect it as easily
as to receyue it what soeuer hath not his authoritie out of the Scriptures And what so-euer wee finde not in the Scriptures we may vse them euen as we list our selues Why may we not say as S. Augustine saide Quia Canonicum non â—…st non me astringit Bicause it is not the Canonicall Scripture it bindeth me not to beleue or receyue it but of this matter furder as ye giue furder occasion Thirdly your argument of proportion from a Parliament to London fayleth standing on your olde and vayue presupposals that we haue graunted or must graunt you that your Popish Church is the true Churche That Christian realmes haue the same respect to your Popish church that a Citie in any Realme hath to the whole estate of the same Realme and againe that your Popes violent Councels are as frée lawfull and generall and enact onely as Godly decrées and constitutions to the directing of the true Churche as the Parliaments of a realme be frée lawfull and generall and enact godly lawes and constitutions for their policies and estates All these things beyng nothing proportionable we must graunt you to be true and fitte or else this your argument and your former crake neyther barell better herring may go togither a Gods name The rest of your counter blast to this diuision as it is nothing materiall so it is eyther altogither wordes of course or else a petit quarell that ye lappe vp all the matter withall bicause the Bishop called this sentence a sentence of the Holy Ghost In maleâ—…lam animam non 〈◊〉 sapientia VVisedome shall not enter into a frowarde soule which bicause it is mere impertiuent and friuolous I haue reiected it to your common places Discorde on our doctrine can ye gather none thereon but you would faine sowe discorde where none is and yet ye boast of vnitie But if ye remembered setting all other discordes aside how well as is afore sayd your Sorbonists and your Louanists and you Thomas Stapleton agrée euen with your owne swéete S. Thomas of Aquine and how your tale agreeth with it selfe how it excuseth and accuseth M. Feckenham ye should then sée who they be that as ye say in place of vniforme tuning ruffle vs vp a blacke Sanctus who they be that chaunging their shapes like Proteus haue so often altred their religion and whether they touch M. Feckenham and you or any of your chiefe Masters yea or no. The ninth Diuision THe Bishop hauing by Thomas his distinction of ignorance answered M. Feckenhams argument descendeth to cope with M. Feckenham in his issue and to proue the same by all the sayd meanes that he requireth And first to the issue whiche was That any Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpoÌ„ them any suche gouernment in spirituall or Ecclesiasticall causes The Bishop answereth that they ought to take such gouernment Ergo they may lawfully do it For his antecedeÌ„t that they ought he referreth to the foure meanes of the issue that M. Feckenham would haue it tried by M. Stapl. picking by quarels of other pretended answers made by the Bishop before falsely surmising that he then denied or mollified the woordes of the othe and that now he answereth without any molliâ—…iyng or restiaint that the Queene ought to take vpon hir such kinde of regiment these answeres he calleth so â—…arring variable diuerse and so contrary the one to the other that if the one be true the other must be false and so concludes they be false and deceiueable both of them But M. St. this is a false and a deceiuable point of your owne deuising from the which I perceyue by the tenour of your whole counterblast ye will neuer iarre nor varie one iote except God sende you hereafter better grace and iudgement than thus still to ground your self and your writings on manifest lies and forgeries and then presuppose them in your nodâ—…le for manifest principles and truthes Thus do ye all your booke ouer so ye play here First ye ground your selfe on a forged answere that the Bishop should before haue made imagining it must néedes be true bicause you say ye certainly vnderstande that M. Feckenham hath so reported to some of his friendes that the Bishop made then another resolute answere This is all that ye all age for proofe of it ye haue it but by heare say at the hande of some partiall tale bearer some tolde you that M. Feckenham told some that the Bishop tolde him that this was his resolute answere and you beleue it for a certentie and write it solemnly in your booke to deface the Bishop as it were with doubble and contrary answering your selfe in the meane season answering nothing to the argument nor to the Bishops present and printed answere And therfore I neede returne no other answere to you than that one tolde me that another told him that he told you that ye were to light of credence to beleue euery flimme flamme tale and to rash of Iudgement to clap downe such tales in your booke of whiche ye had no better proufe than that all the worlde should see claw me claw thee two false marchants néede no broker they say The tenth Diuision THe Bishop entring into his proufes of the issue that Princes ought to take vpoÌ„ them such gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes as the Queenes Maiestie doth chalenge and take vppon hit among other properties belonging to the Princely office to beginne with all auoucheth out of Deut. the 17. and the 13. with some expositoures vpon the same that the Prince is commaunded to haue by him the booke of the lawe to reade in it diligently to this ende that he himselfe may learne the feare of God and cause his subiects to become Israelites by his princely authoritie redressing the peruersnesse of such aâ—… swerue from the ordinances and ceremonies appointed of god The which beyng true the conclusion consequently followeth thereuppon M. St. answere to this argument resteth on foure faults that he findeth with the Antecedent which he calleth vntruthes so reckoneth them vp also in his score but bicause they are the principall materiall pointes whereon his answere dependes I thought it more fitte to note them here But first after his scoffing craking maner he saith to the Bishop Go on I saie in Gods name M. Horne and prosecute your plea stoutly God sende you good speede And so he doth eueÌ„ such as ye the honestie of your cause deserue c. But all these his fromps and vaunts I ouerpasse and referre them to his common places and will onely answere to that which he chargeth the Bishop withall which is no lesse than infidelitie and vnskilfulnesse And to beginne with the later bicause he saith it is the least matter and noteâ—…h it for the former vntruth Your vnskilfulnesse saith he whiche is the least matter standeth in that ye say the King is commaunded to haue by him
novv But then is it most euident that the Popishe Churche is not the true Churche nor was figured hereby at all For first the popishe Prestes deliuered not a coppie of the lawe of God to wete of the Old and New testament vp into their Kings Queenes and Princes handes to write it out and haue it alwaies by them to studie vppon but rather do the contrary as did the Pharisies keping the key of knowledge away from them of purpose telling them it appertaineth not to their estates but that they may go play them or employ them selues in other foreigne matters onely the worde of God they must in no case meddle withall which belongeth alonely to the Priests Nor they will be bounde to deliuer vp to their Princes any coppie thereof at all But thus much yet they will do for their Princes to giue them a péece here and there and that either must be the bare letter as M. Stapleton calleth it or els such expositions as it shall please them to leauen the dough withall And is this now the perfect bodie of that shadow the veritie of that figure set forth in Moses order or not rather the full accomplishing of the Scribes and Pharisies doings whom they haue so followed in not giuing vp a coppie to their Princes in wresting defacing and taking away Gods worde that theirs may better be said to be a very shadow and figure of the Popish priests dealings herein And that we rather expresse the veritie of that figure and shadow of Moses order rendring vp to our Princes a full perfect and sincere coppie of Gods lawe that they may write it out set it forth haue it by them and meditate therein day and night as King Dauid counsayleth to learne thereby to be wise and feare the Lord their God and by them all their subiects And thus his importune vrging of this place hath so properly helpt his matter forwarde that where he saith the Bishop left it quite out as making directry against him what soeuer the Bishop did it had bene better for M. Stapl. to haue left it quite out also or not to haue triumphed so much on that which at the better view thereof so directly maketh against all his popishe Priestes But for all this M. Stapleton will proue that the popish priestes must not onely haue the handling of Gods worde but also that they can not be deceyued nor erre in the sense thereof And this will he proue euen by the Protestants them selues For sayth he as the Protestants them selues are forced by plaine wordes to confesse that they knowe not the true worde or booke of God but by the Churche whiche from time to time deliuered these bookes euen so by all reason and learning they shoulde also confesse that the Churche can no more be deceyued in deliuering the sense of the sayde worde than in deliuering the worde it selfe VVhich seeing they will not confesse for then we were forthwith at a point and ende with all their errours and heresies they must nedes continue in the same The argument is this The Protestants confesse that they know not the worde of God but by the Churche of Christ that kéepeth witnesseth and agnizeth the same from time to time Ergo the Protestants must néedes confesse that the Church he meaneth the Popishe priestes in deliuering of the worde can not be deceyued in the sense thereof In stéede of aunswere hereto master Stapleton him selfe maketh a preoccupation for perceyuing the falsenesse and follie thereof woulde soone be reiected VVhich seeing sayth he they will not confesse for then we were at a point with all their errours and heresies they must needes continue in the same Do we not confesse master Stapleton that ye woulde haue vs confesse why then haue ye reasoned all this while thus fondly taking that for confessed which your selfe now are forced by plain wordes to confesse that we confesse not but vtterly denie that you be the Catholike Church that you haue deliuered these bookes from time to time which you haue rather hid away that you can not erre in the sense â—…f the scripture and such like wrong principles Which in déede if we shoulde falsely confesse with you then all the matter were at a poynt and ende as ye saye But since we denie it and reiect your fonde reasoning à petitione principij it is tyme that ye séeke out other arguments more substantiall or else as your cause is at a poynte or not worth a poynt so in conclusion ye stande on this poynt to slaunder vs as following euery man his owne heade and that we shal neuer haue done and errours will neuer cease more and more to encrease and multiplie vnlesse we take forth say you the lesson I haue shewed you And what lesson is that Forsooth that we must graunt and confesse to be most true all these your false principles And then we shall be your white sonnes and good scholers I dare say if once we would conne that lesson Ye would giue vs a fat remedie and leaue to play the fooles truands all day long if we would learne that lesson of yours But such scholemasters as yâ—… are such schollers ye desire to haue and suche lessons ye take them forth Caecus autem si caeco ducatum prestet ambo in foueam cadunt If the blinde leade the blinde both of them fall into the ditch Thus ye deceyued the princes and people in tymes past But God be praysed both Princes and people haue now taken forth that lesson out of Gods holy word that ye could not or neuer would teach read or expound vnto them Nowe when ye haue redde this lesson vnto vs with so false a glosse and commentarie vpon the text as ye complaine left out ye determine that the best remedie were the exact obseruation of this place that ye haue say you so wilyly and sleightly slipt ouer This is but a poynt of your apparant impudencie master Stapleton to set a beâ—…de face on the matter for God knoweth ye would nothing lesse than that the diligent reader shoulde exactly obserue this place Whiche if he did this place alone were there no more woulde sufficiently shewe howe ye haue haled and racked it and all the lawe of God besides That this place therefore if the exact obseruation thereof be the best remedie to your cause as ye say might remedie your cause the better I haue somewhat the more exactly obserued it and if your cause haue founde any remedie thereby muche good doe it you ye shall haue more of it So that I trust yée shall not néede to complaine of ouerslipping any thing materiall Which least ye should doe the Chapter shall be yet more exactly obserued than perchaunce ye would haue it to be And to begin with that ye quarrell at next as wilily and sleightly slipt ouer But most of all say you another sentence in the verie said Chapter And euen the next to this
nowe But all godly Princes ought so to do as Iosaphat did in directing ecclesiasticall matters Ergo the Quéenes Maiestie doth now as all godly Princes ought to do To proue that she doth as did king Iosaphat your selfe confesse that he reformed religion and was carefull and diligent about directing ecclesiasticall matters But the Queenes Maiesties clayme is none other herein but this to reforme religion and to be carefull and diligent about directing ecclesiasticall matters Ergo King Iosaphats doings and hirs are not vnlike But this importeth in hir a supreme gouernment Ergo King Iosaphats example hitteth home the Butte and is a fitte patterne to hir and all godly Princes of supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Here séeing that for fashions sake where ye durst not denie the manifest truth ye haue graunted so much that in déede ye haue graunted all ye would now restraine your graunt and say it was conditionall that though all Princes may reforme religion and with care and diligence direct all ecclesiasticall matters yet they must do it in suche sort as Iosaphat did and therefore leauing your simple and generall termes of reformation and direction by godlye Princes yée will haue them perticulerly leueled by that sort that Iosaphat did them Whiche as we gladly graunt you in all thinges that Iosaphat did well and godly as were the moste of his doings and in al that which the Bishoppe rehearseth yet in some thinges Princes muste not doe in that sort but go beyonde him For althoughe for the moste part he did those thinges Quae placâ—…ta erant domino That were acceptable to the Lorde 〈◊〉 en excelsa non abstulit Notwithstanding he tooke not away the high places wherein godly princes muste do after a more zealous sort than Iosaphat did As for all those things that the Bishop citeth sée that ye stand to your graunt made vnto vs that Iosaphat reformed religion and vsed care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters and then that godly princes may at this day do all the same And feare ye not but we will also graunt to you and not starte therefrom that they may reforme religion and directe ecclesiasticall matters in such sort as Iosaphat did And so excepte ye be disposed to quarell or will falsefie the sorte and manner of Iosaphats or the Quenes Highnesse doings I trust we shall anon agree herein They may do it say you in such sort as Iosaphat did that is to reforme religion by the priests First this is very subtilly spoken master Stapleton by the priests if ye meane by the aduise or godly counsell of the prestes true it is so might king Iosaphat well haue done If ye meane by the authoritie and commaundemente of the priestes then is it false nor you can euer proue that Iosaphat did it by theyr commaundement and authoritie but they contrarywise by his Nowe in suche sort as Iosaphat did hath the Quéenes Maiestie done and this proueth bothe their supremacies herein Not to enact say you a new religion which the priestes of force shall sweare vnto Indéede this did not Iosaphat no more hath the Quéenes Maiestie done it is but your surmised sclander Item to suffer the priests to iudge in controuersies of religion not to make the decision of suche things a parliamente matter This latter parte of your sentence is agayne but youre manifest sclander to suffer the priestes to iudge in controuersies of religion after the rule of Gods word and not after their owne pleasures in suche sorte Iosaphat not onely suffred but ordeyned them commanded and ouersaw them so to do and so doth the Quéenes maiestie And this sufferance commaundement and ouersight argueth their chiefe authorities Item not to prescribe a newe forme order in ecclesiasticall causes but to see that according to the lawes of the church before made the religion be set forthe as Iosaphat procuâ—…ed the obseruation of the old religion appointed in the lawe of Moyses And euen thus and none otherwise hath the Quéenes Maiestie procured the obseruation of the old religion of Iesus Christ whome Moyses prefigured and the orders of the apostles and most auncient fathers after them to be restored remouing as Iosaphat did all other newe formes and orders of ecclesiasticall abuses And this restoring and procuring of the aunciente religion and ceremonies the suppressing and abolishing of new is againe in both these princes a good argument of their supreme gouernement Briefly say you that he do all this as an aduocate defender and son of the Churche with the authoritie and aduice of the cleargie so Iosaphat furdered religion not otherwise Your word aduocate how it came vp is declared already but neither aduocate defender sonne or daughter herein are any thing contrary to supreme gouernour But where ye adde al these words aduocate defender and sonne to the prince and to the cleargy authoritie aduice this sheweth your subtile deuise to deceyue princes with youre paynted termes But princes begin to waxe wise and learned as Dauid exhorted them and perceaue howe ye haue foaded them with these names and stiles that were but nomen sine re a bare name without any matter for the authoritie and aduice ye reserued to your selues The princes to whome ye gaue these gay titles had neither authoritie nor might giue their aduice according as Hosius woulde not haue them so much as to talke of matters of religion much lesse to reforme religion to directe ecclesiasticall matters with care and diligence as before ye graunted And nowe to eate againe your worde ye woulde haue them be carefull and diligent without aduice reforme and direct without authoritie of their owne except onely the clergies aduice and authoritie Thinke ye Iosaphat did so not otherwise as ye sayâ—… ye may well tell vs so but the Scripture telleth vs otherwise howe he gaue aduice to the Clergie and by his authoritie directed them though I denie not he might vse their aduice and admitte their authoritie to yet the supreme authoritie apperteyned vnto him Not say you as a supreme absolute gouernour contrary to the vniforme consent of the whole clergie in full conuocation yea and of all the Bishops at once This worde absolute is but your absolute and malicious slaunder M. Stap. Such absolute supreme gouernment did your Pope vsurpe as sayth Franciscus de Ripa that the Popes power is absolute and that he may do what he will. As Baldus in the proheme of the decrées alleageth that his power is absolute from all bondes and from all rule of restraint And that we must beléeue him absolutely as Marcus Mantua and Pope Boniface himselfe affirmeth Thus doth not the Quéenes maiestie no more did king Iosaphat and therefore I inferre the conclusion that the Queenes Maiestie doth all these things in such sort as losaphat did them excepting these quarelous slaunders which are your owne put them vp in your purse agayne master Stapleton and
and therfore good reason that yours giue place to his senior the popish later base born religion of your Romish church to thâ—… first most auncient true religion of that Alpha Omega Iesus Christ himself Master Stap. hauing now set vp these two false markes like to one being out of his way that after he is once ouer his shooes in the myre careth not howe he benâ—…yre himselfe but running deeper through thicke and thinne cryeth this is the way to haue other to followe him so rusheth on master Stapleton still further from the issue and yet taketh euerye thing in his way to bée hys marke and directorie Setting vp the perticuler factes of those Princes that chalenge and take vppon them this supreme gouernement that the selfe same factes must be founde in the ensamples of the olde testament or else hée sayth the Bishop strayeth from the marke VVhat euidence haue ye brought forth sayth he to shew that in the olde lawe anye King exacted of the Clergie In verbo Sacerdotiâ—… that they shoulde make none Ecclesiasticall lawe without his consent as King Henrie did of the clergie of Englande Is this the marke master Stap. betwene the Bishop and master Feckenham to proue in their supreme gouerments euerye selfe same perticuler fact yea the circumstances about or concerning the fact to be all one in them that clayme this gouernment nowe and those that claymed it then since bothe the states the times yea all the ceremonies of religion of the Iewes then and ours nowe are nothing like and trow ye then the princes perticuler doings must be like and euen the same and euidence must be giuen out of the one for euery fact of the other or else their supreme authorities be not alike The issue betweene them is not so straight laced but requireth onely any such gouernment some such gouernment yea he it al suche gouernment to I meane not all suche actions in the gouernment but the supreme directing gouernance authoritie or powre are proued both alike in either princes estate so well ouer eccl. persons in all their functions then or now as ouer the temporall in theirs For by this rule wheras that most famous prince king Henry the eight did sweare also to his obedience all his temporall subiects in ciuill causes as other Princes likewise haue done and do it would be harde to alleâ—…ge an euidence thereof out of the old Testament and yet their supreme gouernments therin were not therefore vnlike As for the ministring of the othe is but a circumstance to confirme the matter and not the matter itselfe And if king Henry were by the obstinate and craftie malice of his popishe clergiâ—… then constrayned for his more assurance to take an othe or promise of them on the honestie of their priesthoode which God wâ—…t was but a small holde as it went then in the moste of them and that no king of those ancient yeres mentioned in the olde testament béeing not moued by the wickednesse or mistrust of his clergy tooke the like othe or promise of their priestes honestie or fayth of their priesthoodâ—… then what is this to or from the matter why their supreme authorities shoulde not be alike in bothe Do not you also say for your side that the highe Priest had suche supreme gouernment then as your Pope â—…othe chalenge now ouâ—…r all eccl. causes â—…nd dothe â—…ot your Pope nowe exacte of all his clergie in verbo â—…acerdotij by the worde of their priesthoode that they shall make no eccl. law without his consent May we not then returne your owne words on your selfe VVhat euidence can you bring foorth to shew that in the olde lawe any highe Priest exacted this of the clergie vnder him And if ye can not as ye can not dothe not then this your wyle reason and newe marke ouerturne the false clayme that your Pope claymeth of such supreme gouernment now as the high Priest had then But his clayme is false his gouernment nothing like For the high priest then tooke not vpon him to make eccl. lawes as doth now your Pope but only obserued such eccl. lawes as God had made to his hande till time of the Pharisies corruption who not content with Gods lawes had deuised besides many fond lawes of their own inuentions when there wanted amoÌ„g them this kingly authoritie To the which so long as it continued the high priest al other obeyed receyuing and obseruing such eccl. constitutions as their godly princes made vnto them So did Aaron first receiue the eccl. coÌ„stitutions of Moses So after him did alâ—…re residue admit the eccl. constitutions of Dauid the rest of the foresaid princes their priests made none of theÌ„ selues without the Princes consent But the princes ordâ—…ined diuers eccl. orders partly with the aduise and consent partly without yea agaynst the wil coÌ„sent of their clergy now then and yet those godly princes exacted of them euen as they were true priests as the stories of Iosaphat and Ezechias mention how they charged their priests euen in that they were the Lords priests which is all one with that you alleage in verbo sacerdotij that they should do suche things as they appoynted them to do And is not this good and authenticall euidence for king Henries doings but that the priests appoynted any suche ordinance without their princes consents will be harde for you to bring the like or any â—…uidence at all for your Popes exacting And if as ye conclude herevpon this exacting to make no eccl. law without his consent be to make the ciuil magistrate the supreme iudge for the final determinatioÌ„ of causes ecclesiasticall then your Pope hauing no such euidence for him by this your marke is no supreme iudge for suche finall determination but it â—…latly proueth agaynst you that the Princes should be the supreme iudges therein And if the exacting of consent importe suche supreme authoritie as héere ye confesse then whereas not onely these ancient kings but also the ancient christian Emperors in the confirming of your Pope exacted that none shoulde be a lawfull Pope to whome they gaue not their consent it argueth that those Emperours were the supreme Iudges for the finall determination of the Popes ecclesiasticall election Which afterwarde when ye come to the handling therof ye renie affirming that although his consent was necessarie to be required yet it argued no suche supreme iudgement in the matter And thus you care not may ye for the time shuffle out an answere howe falsly or how contrary ye counterblast your false The nexte marke is yet further wyde from the issue and more fonde than any of the other for abandoning his Pope and generall Councels VVhat can ye bring foorthe sayth he out of the olde Testament to aide and relieue your doings who haue abandoned not onely the Pope but generall Councels also and that by playne acte of Parliament And
to enriche the Popes coafers although he claymed it not by any title of Supremacie but as the keper of the Churches hutche And since by continuance grew to an ordinarie custome as a fée vnto him And afterwarde his vsurpation here being remoued this was also thought good to be better and more profitably bestowed on our owne naturall liege and true supreme gouernour within our owne realme than on a foreyne vsurper to mainteyne his whores and pompe and to empouerish the realme and beat vs with our owne goods And had it bene otherwise disposed or remitted the Prince not withstanding had bene full supreme gouernour But is it so haynouse a matter now for a Prince to receyue tenths or first fruites did not I pray you euen by your Popes dispeÌ„sations and bulles Princes receyue them diuerse times before and if they may receyue them with his bulles why may they not receyue them being giuen by order of the owners euen without his bulles also Now sith ye can make no good argument on the ordinarie paying of tenthes or first fruites to proue your Popes nor to improue the Princes supremacie thinke ye it a good reason to argue from an extraordinarie facte on some occasion or consideration to subuerte an ordinarie authoritie You say they paide both in one yere to King Henrie Were ye not disposed to wrangle and misconster euery facte odiously ye woulde not vrge your reason thus M. Stapleton For admitte ought were amisse therein by ouersight or euer the inconuenience were espied and amended as after ye graunt it was which was eueÌ„ the next yéere following what is this to the impayring of his supreme authoritie if their receyuing of the tenthes and first fruites be allowable as euen your Popes haue allowed the same What caÌ„ye make of the double receipt sauing that he receiued more than he should that yeare of dutie haue receyued if ye make the worst of it And yet thereby it followeth that he might haue receyued them as he afterwarde did and as the Prince now receyueth them But haue ye neuer redde of the Popes dubbling trebling quadrupling and extreme excessiue encreasing of payments vpoÌ„ payments not one yere but euery yere with continuall and vnsatiable polling of the clergie in times past But this coulde ye not remember Your remembraunce serues ye like the hornes of a snayle ye can stretche it out and pull it in as it pleaseth you But the Chronicles that ye pretende to haue read and quote so fast cry out of the Popes vnsatiable dropsie and infinite practises to get golde and siluer And where findes he suche priestly supremacie in all the olde Testament The argument wherewith you confirme your marke agaynst the Princes receiuing therof is yet more fonde and faultie Ioseph would not suffer the heathen Priests to pay either tithes or fines Ergo The Christian Clergie muste not suffer themselues to paye tenthes or firste fruites to their Christian Princes This argument is more Heathenish than christianlike M. Stapl. or student like either but good inoughe for the popish Clergie to grounde them selues vppon Thinke ye the doings of Ioseph in dealing with those heathen Idolaters to be a fit rule to leâ—…el Christian Princes duties towardes their Priests and people or do ye thinke that Ioseph did giue this immunitie to the Priestes more than to the people to mainteyne those Priestes the better bicause they were Priests hauing onely the bare name of Priests as ye say well therein and so being false Priestes and setters out of Idolatrie that they should haue more immunities liberties and wealth than others had you will make Ioseph belike a very holy Patriarke But perchance ye haue espied a greater affinitie betwene those Egiptian Priests and your romish Priestes than euery body was aware of And therefore ye reason substantially from their prerogatiues vnto yours Is it bicause ye fetche your shauen crownes from them or at least that they had shorne heads as you haue as witnesseth Alexander ab AlexaÌ„dro Apud Aegiptios qui sacra ministraÌ„t sacerdotes capite rasi sunt The priests among the Egiptians that minister the holy sacrifices are shauen on the head Or is it bicause the most of your masking trinkets came from thence or is it bicause of your Egiptiacall darkenesse and ignorance that ye kept all people in or is it bicause all your religion lay in mysticall figures and as they dispising ordinary letters had their Hierogliphicall mysteries and signes wherby they set foorth their meaninges so you dispising Gods worde and all good letters your whole religion consisteth in mysteries signes and gestures or is it bicause the Egiptian priests Idolatrie and the Popishe priests Idolatrie is the grossest of all others and the most bestiall or is it bicause as Rauistus Textor telleth of the likenesse betwéen your religious Heremites Anachorâ—… Friers and their priestes called Sarabaytae of whom he sayth Habitabant in foraminibus petrarum induti porcorâ—…m boum pellibus cincti funsbus discalciati sanguine cruentati cauerniâ—… demum exeuntes paâ—…pertatem abstmentiam predicabant barbam spectante populo sibi perâ—…ellebant nummisque tali astu commeâ—…to adeptis remeabant in suas speluncas in summa laetitia furtim dapibus epulabantur They dwelled in the holes of rockes like your ankers and recluses clad with hogges skins and oxe hides like your heremites girte with cordes and barefoote like your friers besprent with bloud lyke your Spanish whippers comming abrode out of their dens they preached pouertie and abstinence like your limitors they pulled away their beards in the sight of the people like your popish shauelings and by this craft and deuise getting money they returned to their dens and in great mirthe they priuily made good cheere So like the one almost in euery iote is to the other Or is it bicause your Ladies chaplaines maiden priests were so like the single priests of Isis Or is it bicause your Nunnes were so like their women priests or is it for that your priests haue claymed such authoritie aboue their princes to take froÌ„ them their estates and realmes yea and their liues at their pleasures as dyd the Ethiopian priests at Merâ—…e of whome sayth Diodorus Siculus Adeò superstitione impleuerunt hominuÌ„ animos vt noÌ„nunquam misso nuncio necem regâ—… Aethiopsâ—… demandareÌ„t nullo detractaâ—…te aâ—…t mandatuÌ„ iâ—…ssionemue abneganâ—…e Superstition did so muche fill the mindes of men that the priests sending a messenger would oftentimes commaund the king of Ethiopia to be killed and nobody forslacked his coÌ„maundement nor refused his bidding Euen a right popish supremacie M. St. And thus they handled at their commaundement christian Princes and the superstitions people were so bewitched that none durst foresâ—…acke or refuse euen agaynst their naturall Princes to satisfie the tyrannie and commaundement of the Pope A great many causes more mighte be suspected why ye pretende so muche for your
wittingly slaunder vs and babling of fast do lie as faste as a dogge doth trotte For we allowe Bbb. ij and commende fasting as godly exhorte all men thereto as néedefull Onely we inueigh agaynst the superstitions of the Popish fastes that binde fasting to necessarie and superstitious lawes to difference of dayes and meates wherin the kingdome of God consisteth not that ascribe a merite to their fast and make it a matter of conscience and religion Such errours we disalowe and if this be heresie the Apostles and the chiefest of all the auncient fathers were heretikes also who made concerning conscience no difference of meates or of dayes for their mmates in their fasting Montanus the heretike sayth Apollonius was the first qui docuit nupâ—…ias solus qui â—…orum leges primus imposuit That taught the dissolution of mariages and first of all appoynted lawes of fasting For before it was frée to fast as they woulde As Ireneus blaming Pope Uictor for his pertinacie in being the authour of such a schisme for diuersitie of vsing the feast of Easter doth witnesse Non solum c. Not onely sayth he the controuersie is mooued of Easter day but also of the very forme of fastinges For certaine do thinke that fast shoulde be kept but onely one day other two dayes other more Yea many fast fortie dayes but so that they recken the day accompting the howers of the day the night togither The which varietie of keping their fast began not first now nor in our times but long before vs of them as I deeme who not retayning simplie that which was deliuered from the beginning haue afterwarde fallen into another custome either by negligence or by folly Socrates writing further of this diuersitic not onely of fasting times but of the meates also saith on this wise Sed etiaÌ„ ciboruÌ„ c. but of the meates also they haue not the like abstinence for some altogither abstain from liuing creatures Other of liuing creatures eat only fishes â–ª some with fishes do eat foules also saying that these after Moses haue their substance of the water Other are knowne to absteyne from inwards and egges Some will eate onely drie bread some not so much as that some fasting vntill nine a clocke are refreshed without any difference of meates And innumerable customes are fonde among diuers men And bicause there is no auncient recorde found therin I thinke the Apostles left this to the mind of euery man that euery man might do that that is good neither by feare nor by necessitie In which testimonies are to be noted first the frée libertie for euery Churche to fast as they thought good without any feare of conscience or any necessitie enforcing them therto SecoÌ„dly that this libertie was both in the time of fasting and in the meate without any difference of fishe or fleshe Thirdly that this was the order of the Apostles and the primitiue church Fourthly that they which began to alter this custome and to binde them selues to dayes or meates swarued from the beginning by negligence or folly This was the former estate for fasting But after Montanus the heretike began first to prescribe lawes to fasting many superstitions ensued Some began to haue scruple in eating flesh as Bishop Spiridions weary ghest before whome when he set a piece of porke on a fasting day his ghest refused to eate therof Christianum se profitente bicause he was a ChristiaÌ„ To whoÌ„ quoth Spiridion propterea magis refutare non debes Euen bicause thou art a Christian thou oughtest the more not to refuse it For all things are cleane to them that be cleane as the vvorde of God hath taught But for al this after Montanus lawes superstition began to grow so faste that euen Hierome a great coÌ„mender of fasting was fayne to exhort them to moderation yea to crie out theron Tantum tibi c. Appoynt vnto thy selfe such a measure of thy fasting as thou canst beare Let thy fastings be pure chast simple moderate not superstitious VVhat auayleth not to tast of oile and to seeke for dayntie meates and harde to come by puddings pepper nuttes the fruites of palmes meale hony craknels all the trimming of the gardens is tossed that we should not feede on common bread And thus while we seeke delicates we are drawne quite from the kingdome of god Yea besides this I heare say of some that coÌ„trarie to the rule and nature of men wil drinke no water nor eate bread but delicates suppings and chopped pot herbes and the iuice of Beetes nor will not suppe it in a cuppe but in a shell Phie for shame Blushe we not at these toyes do not these superstitions irke vs If Hierome cried out thus in his dayes of such superstitions fastings and yet be no heretike are we heretikes that crie out of the popishe superstitions a thousande partes more toyishe than in Hieromes time and a thousande times more delicate knacks founde out to fast forsooth withall But as the saying is shewe me not the meate but shew me the man Looke vpon your chief fasters your popish chaplaynes your religious monkes and Abbots what gorbelly paunches what fat chéekes what riche noses and highe faces your stalfed fasters had they shewed well what porrige they loued in so muche that Aerius made not so little difference betwéene a Priest and a Bishop as euery man made lesse difference betwéene a Monke and a burstenbelly churle Euen Chawcer that describeth a Monke doth giue him this prayse He looked not like a forepyned ghost A fat swanne he loued best of any rost Suche were those that euen by profession preteÌ„ded to be chiefest fasters when they had filled them selues till they swet agayne with all daintie viandes then they cried hold belly hold O quantuÌ„ patimur pro amore Christi what paines we suffer for Christes sake And yet bicause they eate no fleshe no not an egge on a fasting day excepte it were in Aduent the inwards tripes and trullibubbes for that was no fleshe we muste vnderstande O they were holy catholike fasters And bicause we reiect these foolish toyes and superstitious fastes of these bellygod Epicures they crie out vpon vs we are Heretikes we are Aerians we make no difference betweene him that fasteth and that fasteth not But as héerein ye slaunder vs so ye béelie Aerius also and that euen by the iudgement of your great champion Alfonsus de Castro who alleaging S. Augustine to witnesse sayth Non dicit c. He sayth not that he quite contemned fasting but he ascribeth this vnto him onely that he shoulde say certayne appoynted fastings are not to bee obserued but eche one should fast when he woulde least he should seeme to be vnder the lawe Aerius therfore speaketh not agaynst fasting but onely agaynst the lawes of fasting by no maner meanes admitting that the Churche can binde vs to fast bicause although fasting be healthfull
at that time about the dead yea euen those sayth Epiphanius Qui primas sibâ—… ferre videntur c. That among certaine exercisers of godlinesse in Egipt seemed to beare the chiefest sway and also of those in Thebaida and other Regions that denied the resurrection of the bodie Et Graeci quidam c. And certaine Grecians there were that vtterly denied the resurrection On the other part there were some that grauÌ„ted it but with very fond and straunge opinions that partly they had receiued of the heathen Philosophers partly they had deuised of theÌ„ selues For this hath bene alwayes one of the deuils chiefe practises to abuse and deceyue the liuing by the dead And from hence as S. Ambrose and S. August affirme by worshipping the pictures of the deade sprang all Idolatrie and therefore the Deuill stryued so muche for the bodie of Moses as diuerse learned fathers note thereon And of all errours the most auncient are those that haue sprong about the deade As with the Saduces among the Iewes before Christes comming by other among the Corinthians in S. Paules time baptising ouer the deade and these aboue sayd Heresies in the east Church As likewise in the west by thrusting the communion bread into the mouthes of the dead by conceyuing opinions of their estate such as they had learned out of Plato and Uirgill of their paynes and torments of their ease deliuerance whom they loued and wished well vnto of whom sayth Saint August Humana quadam beneuolentia mihi falli videntur and as euen Epiphanius sayth Quum vero tales à via vera discesserint veritatem dei ad fabulas conuerterint VVhen such men swarued from the true way and conuerted the truth of God into fables Such as Origens conceytes and allegoryes were such as the morals of Oregorie are full of suche as the Heretikes fathered of the Apostles names Saint Peters Gospell Saint Thomas Gospell Nichodemus Gospell c. Then no marueyle if not onely the Heretikes had ill opinions of thedeade but also some of the godly and learned fathers in this behalfe were eyther somewhat deceyued ouercuriously searching and affirming that they knewe not or caryed to muche away with the sway of the peoples abuses Yea and by his leaue though he were an excellent and godly wryter yet in this poynte Epiphanius somewhat ouershotte himselfe Althoughe I speake it not to accuse him nor to excuse Aerius for no doubt as Aerius was an open Artian that denyed the diuinitie of oure Sauiour Christe so conertly he shotte herein agaynst the resurrection with the foresayde Heretykes as appeareth by Epiphanius his confutation of him Who not onely confuteth him but also sheweth why at that time they vsed suche an order for the deade whiche in the latter ende of the Booke shewing the diuerse rytes of the Christians in his Countrey then he expoundeth what it was In his autem qui vita defuncti sunt ex nomine memorias faciunt orationes ad deum perficientes ac cultus diuinos mysteriorum dispensationes But as concerning those which are deade they make memorials by name while they make their prayers to God and diuine worship and dispensing of the mysteries That is in their publike prayers of the diuine seruice and receyuing the Sacrament of the Lords Supper they made a thankefull memoriall of suche as were departed in the fayth of Christ giuing God prayse and thankes for them to confirme the fayth of the lyuing in the hope of the deades resurrection Now that they ment not by these doings any such deliuerance out of paynes of Purgatorie or any such other thing as the Papistes dreame of and woulde deceyue the people withall Epiphanius himselfe doeth plainely declare not to muche regarding what the Heretyke did pretende as what hée mente to destroy the hope of the Resurrection and béeing an Artian to abase the prefection of Christe Postea verò sayeth hée de co quòd proferantur nomina defunctorum c. But afterwarde concerning that the names of those that are departed this life aâ—…e brought foorth what can be more profitable than this what more commodious than this and what more worthie admiration that these that are present beleue that they which are departed do liue and are not none but they are and are liuing with the Lorde Whereby it appeareth that those prayers were principally to confirme the hope of the immortalitie of the soule and the bodies resurrection and rather confute the Heresie of Pope Iohn 22. than confirme any Popish Masse or Dirige for the deade Notwithstanding for that that followeth Epiphanius is not altogither excusable though to be borne withall more than you beare with him for rending the picture of Christ and not suffering so much as an Image on painted cloth no not of Christ himselfe to stande in the Church although it serued but for the vse of a vayle What would he haue done trow you if he had come into one of your Churches all to be dashed with Images not onely painted on cloathes but carued in wood and stone no doubt he would haue broken them all to fitters and haue cryed out on your open Idolatrie And so had he seene what horrible errours and superstitions your Church mainteyneth about the dead and that his wordes should after haue giuen occasion to pretende in his name a defence of suche superstition vndoubtedly hee woulde haue tolde you to your faces that you wrested his wordes and abused him and were farre worse your selues than euer Aerius was and woulde as did Saint August haue reuoked such wordes as whereby ye shoulde haue picked any such occasion But he foresawe not this as he saw the other But rather as ye say afterwarde of Nicephorus was caried away in the sway of the common errour and so defended that which ye nowe pretende to boulster your errours by As for any authoritie for this vsage such as it was Epiphanius alleageth none at al out of the word of God yea and that was more fonde in the doing he sayth they prayed for the Patriarkes Prophetes Apostles and Euangelistes Wherin ye will graunt I am sure M. St. both your selfe and your Church doth swarue from him And your owne Popes Decrée sayth Iniuriam facit martyri qui orat pro martyre he doth iniurie to a martyr that prayeth for a martyr The reason he is in blisse already But wherefore saith he made they this prayer for the sainctes already in heauen for soothe to separate Christ from the order of men by the honor they gaue him that he excelled all creatures were they neuer so holy Which though it be most true and withall confuteth your adoration of Saincts departed yet their reason héerein was very fonde that therefore they should pray for them that were already in perfect blisse and glory And as fond was it to pray for those that died in their sinnes agaynst
set vpoÌ„ this worke and peraduenture being compelled And no meruaile if he wauered at the first yet should not occasion there at be snatched of derogating from the Christians but rather the profite of amendement be sought for If you had writen those things vnto him should ye not haue giuen both greater grace and edifiyng either vnto him â–ª hauing his beginnings in the feare of God or els vnto others being readers thereof than now the same your inuectiues do giue more griefe and confusion to all that feare which both in you do shew a most foule lust of back byting and in me a 〈◊〉 of answering For as I haue said in your bookes wrttten against 〈◊〉 you be founde now to affirme the selfe â—…ame things with which ye reproued him â–ª Howbeit now ye are fallen so farre that ye affirme the filthes of mariage ca not be washed away no not with the blond of martyrdome c. And after this againe saith Ruffinus on S. Hierome besides this we haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shewed that it is this mans fashion to derogate 〈◊〉 all good men and 〈◊〉 this point he taketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be somwhat if he may repreâ—…ende aâ—… wiâ—…e men and those that haue any name in â—…earning â–ª I haue shewed also how vnworthâ—…ly he hath rayled on the Ministers and Priestes of Christ. No he hath not spared the Mokes no nor the virgins whom he hath praised nor the continent â–ª yea 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 infamed with his fouâ—…e â—…ibels the estate and degree of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. And so Russinus telleth how vnworthily he defaced S. Ambrose 〈◊〉 whome before he placed among the Prophets â—…postles and afterward placeth them among those that teach straâ—…ge things 〈◊〉 neither did nor new writers Martyr nor other All this I 〈◊〉 M. St. ouâ—… of 〈◊〉 not to detect the Fathers 〈◊〉 but only to shew how weake your argument is in 〈◊〉 vs and that with 〈◊〉 for this article of â—…ourman for his other matters â—… sette 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 S. Hierome calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 him vp therefore declaring rather his owne impotencie though otherwise being a very godly Saim and a notable learned Father than herein confuteth his aduersarie Your thirde demaund is to 〈◊〉 what we say to the A rians that denied the miracles done at the saincts tombes to be true miracles and that the 〈◊〉 cannot cast out the diuils and relieue them that be possessed And to the Bogomiles that saide the diuels sate at the saincts tombeâ—… and dyd wonders there to illude and 〈◊〉 the people to cause the people to worship them We denie not M. Sta. with the Arians or 〈◊〉 the power of Christ 〈◊〉 his wondrous workes at the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 theâ—… bicause we denie the feigned 〈◊〉 of your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â–ª and images now Betwéene which 〈◊〉 their 〈◊〉 then was as much difference 〈◊〉 it betweene 〈◊〉 miracles and false illusions betweene the sincere worship of God open Idolatrie So that this as the other is your false slaunder also And if ye make al 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 who though they did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at that time 〈◊〉 wrought 〈◊〉 his 〈◊〉 to confirme the fayth among the 〈◊〉 yet would they not make any ordinary prescript 〈◊〉 of miracles nor by miracles measure true or false doctrine nor asscribe any holinesse to the 〈◊〉 or places nor such miracles to be of the martyrs doings nor to be done for their deseâ—…uings nor the 〈◊〉 or the martyres them selues to â—…e honored with spirituall worship Then will â—…s make S. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cyril and other godly fathers to be Arians and 〈◊〉 also sayth S. Aug. Let not the worship of dead men be religion to vs For if they haue liued well â–ª they are not so to be accompted 〈◊〉 they would seeke such 〈◊〉 but they woulde haue 〈◊〉 to be 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 who 〈◊〉 vs â–ª they reioyce that we are made 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 They are therfore to be honored for imitation they are not to be worshipped for religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you 〈◊〉 worship them for religion dedicate templeâ—… to them offer 〈◊〉 knéele pray vnto them and make these great poyntes of religion The angell of God in no case woulde suffer any suche kinde of worship to be done vnto him but forâ—…ad S. Iohn to do it Peter would not suffer Cornelius nor Paule and Barnaâ—…as the Lyaconiâ—…s this to worship theÌ„ Which if they refused beeing alme thinke ye they desire you to worship them béeing dead in deede so do your popish saincts Francis the author of the begging Friers as your legend telleth releysed on a 〈◊〉 and laugâ—…ed greatly and beeing demaunded the cause of his laughâ—…er he answered it was bicause â—…e should after his death be worshipped for a sainct And in many your other saincts ye tel â—…s how they appeared to suche or suche a Priest Fâ—…ier Monke or 〈◊〉 commaunding this or that ceremonie church prayer feast or holyday to be made in their honor This did not the true saincts and good angels of God require nor the Churche of God yéelde vnto them as sayth S. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do we builde Churches to them for they would not so be honored of vs. But as Cyrill sayth Sanctos martyrâ—…s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 VVe neither call the holy martyrs Gods noâ—… yet vse we to worship them 〈◊〉 rather we prayse them with highâ—… honours that they haue stoutly foughte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 the sinceritie of the â—…aythe in so muched at they 〈◊〉 their owne life and 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 of death 〈◊〉 they preuayled in great daungers and were of suche strengthe that they woulde rayse vp as it were 〈◊〉 of their life And therefore it is not vnworthy yea rather it is also necâ—…ssarie to honour them with perpetual prayses which are glorious by so noble deeâ—…es As for other kinde than this of praysâ—…ng them for their vertues Cyril 〈◊〉 none to the Christians 〈◊〉 sayth â–ª To worshippe dead 〈◊〉 otherwise â–ª is the propertie of heathen 〈◊〉 Nowe where ye measure 〈◊〉 and saincts by miracles S. 〈◊〉 sayth fieri Christianum non 〈◊〉 sanctum c. It is possible that a Christian by signes and vvonders may be made famous but he can not be made a Saincte by them if he vse intemperat and rough 〈◊〉 â–ª Such an one as your Chronicles write that Augustine the Italian was which came hither from 〈◊〉 nothing like this S. Augustine of Affrike suche an other proude and sharpe sainct as was youâ—… S. Thomas 〈◊〉 of whâ—…se shrine and miracles your legendes babble muche Temperatis 〈◊〉 â–ª c. say the S. Augustine but by temperate and softe demeanour â–ª we beleeue that a man may well be made bothe a saincte and perfecte and a man of God yea 〈◊〉 without the efficacie of miracles And so sayth Cyrill on S. Iohn the Baptist in that he wrought no myracles 〈◊〉 in aliquo derogat sanctitate 〈◊〉 c. Neither doth this in
so saith an other church we haue it Nay sayth the thirde neither of ye both haue it but we Héere the one partie or the other say not true yet al work miracles after their miraculous maner But will ye know the truth they were false harlots al deceiued the séely soules that now God be praysed vnderstaÌ„d the knacks of S. Wenefrids néedle the renewing of the bloud of Nayles the filth of S. FraÌ„cis bréeches c. These were your blessed Reliques They were so blessed that as your great champion frier Alfonsus sayth where he defendeth them your blessed couÌ„cell of Laterane vnder your blessep Pope Innocent the thirde was fayne to make this prouiso for them that is put in your decrées Cum ex eo c. Seeing that the Christian religion is defaced and may be defaced in time to come vpon this that certayne do set out to sale the Saints Reliques and euery where shew them foorth we haue ordeined by this present decree that froÌ„ hence foorth the olde Reliques shal in no case be shewed without a cause that is to say without a péece of money to sée them nor shall be set foorth to sale and that suche as shall be found out of newe no man presume to worshippe them till they shall be allowed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome that is to say till they haue payed their fées to him for before they be so litle blessed that they be not worshipfull and as for Prelates they shall not suffer those that come for to worship at their Churches to be deceyued by sundry feigned forgeries and false teachings as for lucre sake it is accustomed to be done in most places This decréed your Pope and your Councell M. Stapl. against your blessed reliques Were not here your Pope and his whole Councell heretikes also you were best to say so For this saying proueth your Prelates Priests Pardoners to haue bene false teachers and deceyuers of the people for Lucre and the people hauing bene deceyued by them to haue committed Idolatrie and the Reliques that we were borne in hand were blessed things as ye call them to haue bene faigned forgeries and false teachings not in one place or in some places but in most places that is all ouer your Churche and that not once or twise by a scape but of custome which how long time it prescribeth search you This was the generall state of your vniuersall Church for vniuersall comprehendeth the most parte concerning your blessed reliques euen by the Popes owne definitiue sentence and all his councell which oft times you boast can not erre But though the Pope coÌ„fesse thus much as â—…e could not for shame denie so manifest a matter yet he knew what he did wel inough when he made this statute For what losses so euer other poore Priests and Pardoners should féele he made sure for him selfe to get thereby not so much by retayning the old reliques in estimation that then as stale and common began to decaie as to relieue the Churches hutch whereof he saith he is the coaferer by authorising newe blessed reliques But though he gayned much by this deuice yet much water goeth by the mill that the miller knoweth not of And many miriades of blessed reliques more more encreased and neuer fette the Popes blessing from Rome for their warrant so blessedly they multiplied but had this Popes decrie bene plainly ment or truly kept bothe old and new and all your blessed reliques had bene banished from all blessednesse and worship long agoe as nothing but lies and forgeries inuented to enrich your selues with the spoyle of the peoples Idolatrie I graunt ye haue some antiquitie to pretende for Reliques not onely of S. Hieromes time but somewhat before also that with greate reuerence conserued the bodies of the glorious Martyrs But trowe you they worshipped knéeled crept and offred to them and yet some might yea some did ouershoote themselues herein euen then But did the learned Fathers allow it Doth not euen S. Hierom of whome Alphonsus saithe Qui duriuâ—… 〈◊〉 pugnare solet that was wonte to fight more harde and bitterly say to Uigilantius Quis enim O insanum caput aliquando martyres adorauit For who O thou frantike head hath at any time worshipped the Martyres He telleth how they translated them honorably as noble martyres but they worshipped them not And where other began to attribute an opinion of vertue to their vestiments Chrysestome if the worke be his greatly blameth them Alij autem qui sanctiores c. Other there be saith he that would shew them selues to men to be more holy and tie and hang about them a parte of their hem or heares O wickednesse they would shew a greater holinesse in their garmeÌ„ts than in the body of christ He which is not healed feeding on his bodie would be saued by the holinesse of his garment In so much that he trusteth in the vestiment of man which despayreth in Gods mercie Yea what did Paule did not he giue his napkins that the sicke might be helped yes before those men had the knowlege of God and the reason was that by those mens health the power of God might be knowne But now it were madnesse For after we haue knowne the power of God whereto is it necessarie that we should know the power of man No saith he as I shewed before Neattendaâ—… cinerem c. Regarde not the asshes of the saincts bodies nor the Imbers of the Reliques of the flesh and all their boanes that in time are consumed Yea your owne feigned Epistle in the name of Clement saith Nothing is more wicked and vnthankefull than to receyue a benefite of God and to giue thankes to stockes and stones S. Augustine telleth of Hypocrites in his dayes that caried about with them Reliques for sale Alij membra ossa martyrum c. Other fell the members and bones of Martyrs if yet they be Martyrs other extoll their hems and gardes c. Thus there is some antiquitie to be pretended for Reliques and that they were worshipped also but not of the godly and learned Fathers but of wicked and supersticious hypocrites Against whome they cried out but what would they haue saide had they séene the playne Idolatrie to your forged Reliques Of the which euen the defenders of them haue cried out and coÌ„fessed their abhominations For besides your Pope your Councell of Coleyn euen in defending them saith Hiâ—… tamen c. Notwithstanding here which we can not denie the gouernours of the Churche did after a meruailous fashion sleepe out the matter And anon after Sed nostro saculo c. But in our age and that through the slouth of the parishe Priestes we can not denie it but that we erred And againe Expositae sunt passim c. Reliques are euery where set forth for gaine and those vncertayne Reliques and perhaps herevppon occasion
Deuill and all it coulde that such mysteryes suche vertue such confidence suche seruice of God such forgiuenesse of sinnes consisted in burning a Candle in setting vp a Lampe in offering a Taper in mainteyning a light before an Image or bearing it in Procession Do ye not say in your hallowing of them at Masse Benedic Domine Iesu Christe hanc creaturam c. Blesse Lord Iesu Christ this creature of wax Candle at our supplication and powre into it an heauenly blessing by the vertue of the holy Crosse that thou which hast giuen it to mans vse to repell darkenesse it may receyue by the signe of thy holy Crosse suche strength and blessing that in whatsoeuer places being lighted it bee put the Deuill may depart thence and tremble and flie awaye pale with all his ministers oute of those houses nor presume to disquiet them any more Againe in the next prayer Ut has Candelaâ—… c. That these Candles prepared to the vse of men and to the health of their bodies their soules either on land or water by the inuocatioÌ„ of thy holy name by intercession of S. Mary alway virgin whose feasts are this day deuoutly celebrated c. And in the thirde praier that thou vouchsafe to blesse hallow and kindle them â–ª with the light of the heauenly blessing that we by offering them to our God may deserue to be kindled with the holy fyre of thy most swete brightnesse and to be presented in the holy temple of thy glorie All these vertues and many more ye ascribe to your Candles Neither do ye as here ye pretend offer them vp onely to God but to the Saints also chiefly to the Uirgin Marie which as it was so common that it cannot be denied so to coÌ„firme the same your Legend telleth vs a tale of one that neuer did good déed in his life but that he offred a Taper to the virgin Mary And wheÌ„ he died he was of Christ coÌ„demned the deuils had alreadie gotteÌ„ his soule Then came the virgin Mary put the Taper in his hande had him shift with the deuils so well as he could the soule hauing gotten the Taper stood therwith at his defence euer wheÌ„ the deuils came nere him he â—…oyned one in the face hit another here another there so lustily he laid about him that he droue with the Taper all the deuils away So notable a force ye ascribed to a Candle offred to the blessed virgin and made the simple people beleue what ye would by these outward CaÌ„dles in the darke night mist of error hauing put out and hidden vnder a bushel the true holy Candle the light of our féete lanterne to our steps the blessed worde of God that shoulde haue shewed Christ vnto vs the verye light of the world that came to giue light to those that sit in darknesse in the shadow of death Which spirituall light of Christ and the glorious beames of his Gospell the dimme eies of your soule cannot abide to looke vpoÌ„ Qui male agit odit luceÌ„ c. He that doth yll saith Christ our true light hateth the light coÌ„meth not to the light least his works shuld be reproued Syth therfore euen as the Owle flieth the light you slie the word of god all these other lights are but mere vnfruitfull workes of darknesse lulling the people a sleepe with these your dreaming fables Yet these fables were let forth in the mother tong that euery man might vnderstaÌ„d them but in no case the true caÌ„dle might shine vnto them In stéed whereof ye set vp a Candle before the deuil For the godly christians are not taught by Christ his Apostles nor the learned auncient fathers to set vp any suche Candles before Christ which Lactantius calleth plaine madnesse Candles in the Church so well as in other places we allowe and vse as did Saint Hierome And therfore where ye obiect Uigilantius to vs we returne euen Hieromes wordes to you Cereos autem in clara a luce c. But we light not waxe Candles at broade day light as thou slaunderest vs in vaine but with this comfort to mitigate the nightes darkenesse to keepe vs awake at the light least we should sleepe in darkenesse beeing blinde with thee And thus Saint Hierome maketh euen you master Stapleton and your Church that haue them in the cleare day light and that to such blind and Idolatrous endes both Uigilantians and Dormantians to Nowe to Ceremonies I answere that such as be decent laudable and to edifying and may set forth Gods glorie we refuse them not We reiect I graunt and that in good considerations the rable of such heathen and Iewish ceremonies that you laded the spouse of Christ withall We are frée from the yoke of the lawe much lesse néede we tye vs to the bondage of Paganisme And froÌ„ one of these the most of your ceremonies were deriued Saint Augustine complayned in his time and he liued euen in the time of Uigilantius That they oppressed the Church which God had set free with such slauish burdens that the state of the Iewes was more tollerable who though they knewe not the time of their libertie yet were they but vnder the burthens of the lawe aud not vnder the presumptions of men Thus speaketh Saint Augustine of Ceremonies euen where he mitigateth the matter and beareth with them so much as he coulde But what woulde he haue thought and sayde had he séene such an infinite number as haue crept in since his tune obtruded with such seueritie vrged with such necessitie estéemed with such opinion of holinesse as nothing more yea preferred before the knowledge and expresse commaundements of God beeing nothing but the traditions and inuentions of men If ye obiect Uigilantius to vs as an Heretike for improuing such ceremonies and the abuses of them why call ye not Christ M. St. a starke Heretike also for he obiected euen the same matter to the Scribes Pharisies High Priects that they worshipped God with the traditions of men and therefore saith â—…n vanum â—…olunt me They woorship me in vaine he charged them that they ouer burdened the people with such loade of Ceremonies whereas his yoke was light and easie and reproued them that for those their ceremonies they neglected and transgressed the commandements of god I warrant ye they said as you say by vs that he was a ranke Heretike and accursed and excommunicated him and all that helde with him And do you speake any better of his Ministers I meane not but euen of his worde it selfe in respect of your ceremonies than did they I omitte as now to tell how ye haue defaced his worde how many things ye preferre aboue it onely I will note this how sawcely in the defence of your ceremonies and your other errours contrary to the Scripture ye exalte your selues aboue Gods worde
same booke on these verses Lanceâ—… Crux claus tua pertuls corde 〈◊〉 c is this Quicunque arma Domini c. VVho soeuer shall looke deuoutly vpon the weapons of our Lord Iesus Christ and shall deuoutly say this prayer he shall haue of his sinnes beyng truly confessed and repenting of them sixe thousand seuen hundred and fiue yeeres of pardons of S. Peter the Apostle graunted him and graunted of 30. Popes after him How agreeth this with the former M. Stapleton or did S. Peter giue this pardon twisâ—… and augment the summe bicause of the excellencie of those verses But these are trifles to the thirde that followeth Crux coronae spinae flagellis clauis lanciae marcellae spongae laqueae columpilae vesti purpuriae aâ—…undinae honorem impendamus This is good Latine I warrant ye and as good as the matter euery whit and so good that saith the Rubrike ouer it VVho soeuer say this Orison here following shall haue great grace of almighty God and sixe thousand thousande and threescore and ten yeeres of very pardon This was lustely multiplied Sitte downe Master Stapleton sith ye pretende to be so perfect an Arithmetrician and cast your accountes and ye shall sée a fayre muster of pardons to comforte your sprites with all Feare not man the Diuell so long as these last and many thousandes more there are besides but these are easily gotten euen for worshipping the Iewes Ropes Halters Hammers Râ—…iues Swordes their Fistes yea their spettle and all But if ye be ashamed and thinke scorne to worship these thinges as in déede ye may well be ashamed of them yet I haue suche holy Reliques for you to worship that ye can hardely finde any higher But I tell ye you must take vp your hand and blisse you at the sight of them and so they worke meruailes as your holy bookes recorde And that not for the Images of all Hallowes but of Christes Image or rather of him selfe that ye should know euen the iuste length of him as they pretende Among the good prayers aforesaide is this Rubrike Qui cupit cognoscere longitudinem c. He that desireth to know the length of Christ being God let him take this line here drawne forth twoo and thirtie times measured which line was brought out of the Citie of Constantinople in a certaine Grosse of Golde VVhiche line who soeuer in the day doth deuoutly looke vppon and say the Antiphona with a Collect and shall signe him thrise with the signe of the holy Crosse he shall not that daye die any suddayne death nor be vexed with Diuell nor with any tempest nor any euill nor any Creature shall hurte him And this line was brought by an Angell to King Charles the great This is a fayre grace M. Stapl. for looking vppon and worshipping a line of the length of Christ. But I haue another length and Rubrike that hath more Iolie promises to stirre vs vp to worship it Which sayeth This Crosse fiftene times measured is the length of our Lorde Iesu Christe and that day ye looke thereon blesse ye therewith There shall no wicked spirite haue power to hurt you nor thunder ne lightning sleeping ne waking shall not hurt you nor winde nor blasting on lande nor on water shall not hurt you nor in battayle ye shall not be ouercome with your enimies bodely ne ghostly nor die no shamefull death nor suddayne death nor of the pestilence nor in water be drowned nor in fire be brente and if yee be in deadly sinne ye shall not die therein and you shall increase in worldly goodes nor ye shall not die of woundes nor of stroake nor without confession nor ye shal not be combred with no fiendes and if a woman haue this Crosse and lay it on hir woÌ„be when she traueleth with childe she shall soone be deliuered and the childe shall haue Christendome and the mother purification of holy Church S. Ciriake and S. Iulite desired this gifte of almightie God and he graunted them as it is registred in Rome at S. Iohn Lateranence Here are many moe fayre graces if all were true But some of them your Papistes them selues haue â—…ounde starke lies And some of them as that he shall not be combred with no fiende c. I thinke may well be true as you will graunt I dare say resoluing them by your Equipollences on which ye stande so much in your fourth booke As for the assurance of the truth of these lengthes that I remit to you M. St. to reconcile them togither how the one came froÌ„ Constantinople the other froÌ„ Rome how the one was grauÌ„ted of God to S. Ciriake and S. Iulite the other brought by an Angell to king Charles the great and yet as appeareth by the prayer it came first to S. Ciriake and S. Iulite too With other such circumstances as arise in the conference of them Onely I note the lengths them selues and I pray you M. St. if ye haue as good skill in Geometrie as in Arithmetike to measure these two lengths the one xxxij the other xv times as they require and see how properly they will agree I thinke ye shall finde them differing little lacking the length of both Crosses ioyned togither So that the one light on which it shall must needes be a very lie and haue no vertue in it at all but those that worship it be Idolaters worshipping a false thing If ye replie an inche breakes no square although it breake no square yet it breakes leÌ„gth M. St. neither ought ye to misse one inche in this matter wherein ye pretende is such vertues and so exactly take vpon ye to describe euen the iumpe length and say it came from God and his Angell brought it knew not the Angell the iumpe length or would he not giue it truly and would haue it so precisely worshipped surely then he was no good Angell But the difference is more thaÌ„ an inch M. St. or 6. or 7. inches either And would ye haue Christ cut shorter by the head to make your leÌ„gths euen were it not better that a great many such liers as you hopâ—…â—…edlesse before which of these two shall we beléeue M. Stapleton or is it not best by your counsell to let them both goe in the â—…irrops name and all their forged vertues with them than for gréedinesse of their gaye promises endanger to lose bodie and soule by worshipping a lie and committing foule Idolatrie Well let them goe for me if ye he agreed thereto M. Stapâ—… But yet ye haue one excuse as ye thinke to mitigate the matter that how soeuer they missed in the Figure eyther of the Crosse or the Crucifixe of the which some was long some was shorte this hindred not the peoples deuoute meditation thereon Although M. Stapleton this nothing excuse the former manifest lie where ye misse of the leÌ„gth that so iustly ye pretende to set out and yet ascribe the vertue to
worshipped ye then and that with such high worship to your solemne Saint Thomas Becket that dyed for no matter of Religion at all But eyther for his obstinacie agaynste his liege Lorde and agaynst all the Barons Spirituall and Temporall of the Realme or if ye colour it neuer so fayre yet was it but in mainteyning his honour and the priuileges of the Clergie and that contrarie to the auncient custome of the Realme except yée will graunt that the Popishe Religion doeth consiste herein Whiche if ye bée ashamed to confesse vpbrayde not then for shame false Martyrs vnto vs nor yet the Canonising of wicked Sainctes We vse no such Canonization at all It redoundeth on your selfe on your Legende on your Popes and on your Pope holy Saincts Whome by this rule you make both Donatists Montanists Manicheans or what soeuer Heretikes ye can obiect besides As for all these Comparisons hitherto betwéene the Protestantes and the Donatists wherein ye thinke ye haue be stowed great cunning there is not 〈◊〉 poyâ—… that is not violently wrested to make it séeme to touch vs and not one poynt that being returned on your selues doeth not rightly and fully hitte you home againe And therefore I for my part am content as you concluding say you be To ende this talke with the whole conference leauing it to the indifferent Reader to consider whether the Popishe Catholikes or the Protestants drawe nearer to the Donatists To come newe at length to the sixt and last parte of this Chapter which consistes in remâ—…ing such motiues as the Bishop alleageth to burtheâ—… Master Feckenham with the practise of the Donatists First master Stapleton deuideth these motiues in twaine Let vs then sayth master Stapleton proceede foorth and consider vpon what good motiues ye charge master Feckenham to be a Donatist whiche are to say truth none other but falsehoode and follie But as ye surmise the one is bicause hee craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the prooues of the olde Testament as the Donatists did The other bicause hee with the sayde Donatists should auouch that secuâ—…er Princeâ—… haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes ecclesiasticall nor to punishe any man for such causes These two motiues ye say Master Stapleton are to say the truth none other but falsehoode and follie In déede they are the worsâ—… by comming through so false a marchantes handes as yours For shame either tell the wordes as they â—…e at least the true and full effect of them or neuer sette them out in a distinct letter syâ—… you so often but euer falsly vpbrayde the Bishop hereof Else all the follie and falsehoode will proue to be in your selfe and not in the Bishops motiues The Bishop spâ—…ke not of Princes medling or punishing for Ecclesiasticall 〈◊〉 as though the Donatists simpliâ—… denied that anâ—… yâ—… graunted Princes yet so much as to meddle or punishe for your Ecclesiasticall causes that is to say to be your executioners therin as though the Emperors other Christian Princes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more vpon them at that time But the Bishop tolde how the godly fathers craued aide assistance of the magistrats and rulers to reforme them to reduce them to the vâ—…itie of the church to represse their heresies with their au thoritie godly lawes made for that purpose to whome it belonged of duetie and whose especiall seruice of Christ is to see care and prouide that their subiects be gouerned defended and mainteyned in the true and syncere religion of Christ without all errours superstitions and heresies This is that the Bishop wrote and to proue this he alleageth Saint Augustine Thus did Christian Princes gouerne in Ecclesiasticall causes then This did the Donatists then denie vnto them and this do now the Papists denie and ye come sneaking in and tell vs the Bishoppes motiue was this In charging Master Feckenham to followe the Donatists by cause hee with the Donatistes shoulde auouche that seculer Princes haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes Ecclesiasticall nor to punishe anie man for suche causes As though the controuersie had bâ—…ne for anie kinde of medling or punishing whiche you sâ—…ming to graunt to Princes to bée your seruaunts and droyles in suche ecclesiasticall causes and so farre as you assigne them might therefore séeme not to play the Donatists when ye play their partes so liuely as can bée and so subtilly that the Donatistes were but Babes vnto you in séeming to giue them some medling or punishing in Ecclesiasticall causes but if they meddle with or punishe you or anie other otherwise than ye commaunde and restrayne them you so little then suffer them to meddle in Ecclesiasticall matters that with solemne curses ye debarre them from medling in anie temporall and ciuill matters too so farre ye passe the Donatists For shame master Stapleton tell your tale plainely that we may sée whether M. Feckenham played the Donatistes part or no or else your doubling wyll declare your selfe to be a Donatist also for companie But let vs sée how ye aunswere these motiues euen as your selfe propounde them The one is say you bicause he craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the proues of the old Testament as the Donatistes did Your Stale Iestes M. Stapleton of a fine blast of a horne â–ª of a â—…oule slawe of a blinde betell blunte shifte I ouer passe them When M. Feckenham ye say offereth to yelde if ye can proue this regiment either by the order that Christ left behinde him in the new Testament either by the Doctours either by Councels or els by the continuall practise of any one Churche thinke you M. Horne that this is not a large and an ample offer The largenesse of this offer is not here in questioÌ„ M. St. the offer is large and ample inough â–ª taken of the Bishop at his handes and proued vnto him at his owne demaunde It remaineth then that he stande to his promise and yelde to the truth or else he sheweth that he minded to offer more than he purposed to perfourme Onely now it is examined why here he specifieth the new Testament and quite leaueth out the old Testament â–ª This doing in this pointe saith the B. smelleth of a Donatist Nay say you There is not so much as any coÌ„iecture to gather this vppon yea the old Testament is not by this offer excluded but verely included For if the new Testament which rehearseth many things out of the old haue any thing out of the old Testament that make for this regiment if any Doctour old or new if any Councell haue any thing out of the old Testament that serue for this regiment then is Master Feckenham concluded yea by his owne graunt For so the Doctour or Councell hath it he is satisfied according to his demaunde VVhereby it followeth he doth not refuse but rather allowe and affirme the proufes of the old Testament It might
Augustine that is their accuser who saith they did refuse the proufes of the old Testament And you say ye haue not redde it had ye redde S. Augustine or so much as the wordes taken out of him that the Bishop citeth and you take vppon you to answere vnto for Master Feckenhams defence how could ye not haue redde it but ye would slippe off the matter vnder the colour of the Manicheans refusall bicause the Donatistes did not refuse it as they did therefore they did not refuse it at all whereas the Manichées did simplie and vtterly refuse the old Testament which the Donatistes did not but refused it like such wise men as the Papistes when they thinke it maketh against them â–ª and admit vrge it when they thinke it maketh for them thus did they and thus do you and therfore for this handling of the old Testament ye be like the Donatistes But for your handling of the newe Testament ye be like the Manichées of whome S. Augustine saith Ipsiâ—…sque nouâ—… Testaments c. And they so reade the sentences of the new Testament as though they had bene falsified that what they lust they take from thence and what they like not they reiect and as though they contained not all the truth they preferred many bookes that were Apocrypha And saide that in their Archemanichee the promise of the Lorde Iesus Christ was fulfilled wherevppon in his letters he called him selfe the Apostle of Iesus Christe bicause Iesus Christe promised to sende him and sente in him Iesus Christe Whiche how nere it toucheth your Popes practise looke you to it and cléere him of it M. Stapleton els ye will not onely proue Donatistes I am afrayde but also Manicheans Thus muche then for the former motiue that the B. had to charge M. Feckenham with the Donatistes And if this suffise as you say for this branche to purge M. Feckenham content is pleased and so am I let it suffise in Gods blessed name I commit it to the readers iudgement Now to the other motiue Concerning the other say you besides your falshood your great follie doth also shew it selfe too aswell as in the other to imagine him to be a Donatiste And to thinke or say as you say they did that Ciuill Magistrates haue not to do with Religion nor may not punishe the transgressours of the same Master Feckenham saith no such thing and I suppose he thinketh no such thing And furder I dare be bold to say that there is not so much as a light coniecture to be grounded thereof by any of M. Feckenhams words vnlesse M. Horne become suddenly so subtile that he thinketh no difference to say the Prince should not punishe an honest true man in steede of a theefe and to say he should not punishe a theefe or to say there is no difference betwixt all thinges and nothing For though M. Feckenham and all other Catholikes do denie the ciuill Princes supreme gouernment in all causes Ecclesiasticall yet doth not M. Feckenham nor any Catholike denie but that ciuill Princes may deale in some matters Ecclesiasticall as Aduocates and Defenders of the Churche namely in punishing of Heretikes by sharpe lawes Vnto the whiche lawes Heretikes are by the Church first giuen vp and deliuered by open excommunication and condemnation Here first as ye did in the other motiue so againe ye charge the Bishop with falshood and folly but take héede M. Stapleton the falshood and follie light not on your owne pate as it did in the other Whether it be follie in you or crafte let other déeme certainely falshood it is that when ye come to the setting downe of the Bishops wordes in a distincte letter ye dare not for both eares on your head set downe the full wordes of the Bishop nor of S. Augustine nor yet of the Donatistes whereby it might haue bene knowne what the Donatistes attributed or denied to Princes and how néere or how farre ye had come vnto or diffred from them Thus durst ye not do and thus should ye haue done which argueth your owne falsehood But ye turne the catte into the panne and say that the Donatistes saide Ciuill magistrates haue not to do with religion nor may not punishe the transgressours of the same but say you M. FeckeÌ„ham saith no such thing and you suppose he thinketh no such thing and furder ye dare be bolde to say there is not so much as a light coniecture to be grounded thereof by any of M. Feckenhams wordes and hereon you conclude him to be no Donatiste Now since ye will be thus bolde for M. Feckenham as to enter into his thought ye should not haue bene afrayde with the Byshop to haue set downe his playne written wordes or so muche as the full content therof Did ye feare they would bite ye in déede they woulde haue shewed you to haue bene a Donatist they would haue shewed howe ye haue altered the Donatistes refusall and S. Augustines complaynt on them to make it séeme you were none Ye saye M. Feckenham and you graunt Princes may deale with matters ecclesiasticall Why M. Stapl. so diâ—… the Donatistes too Haue not your selfe confessed that they ranne for succour to Iulianus the Apostata and highly commended him And ye knowe in Cecilians controuersie that they refused not the Emperours dealing till he delte still agaynst them and therfore as you say you do not no more did they simply denie that princes might deale in matters of religion Ye should therfore haue adioyned the wordes that the Byshop reciteth out of S. Augustine howe and after what manner they denied their dealing in matters of religion and punishment of heretikes Whether they denyed it as you dâ—… that they should not dealing as supreme gouernours as punishers by their owne authoritie yea or no for this you denie Now that Princes had and tâ—…ke vpon them and oughte to haue this kinde of dealing the Bishop proued out of S. Augâ—…stine that magistrates and rulers â—…ught to reforme theÌ„ to reduce them to the vnitie of the Church and to represse their heresies with their authoritie and godly lawes made for that purpose to whoÌ„ it belonged of duetie and whose speciall seruice to Christ is to see care and prouide that their subiectes be gouerned and maynteined in the true and sincere religion of Christ without all errors superstitions and heresies This was the maner of the Princes dealing then with religion and this you now denie to Princes to deale on this wise â–ª And on this fashion saide the Donatistes The seculer Princes haue not to deale in matters of religion or causes eccl. That God committeth not the teaching of his people to kings but to Prophets Christ sent not souldiors but fishers to bring in and further his religion Pretending the ordering and disposing of all eccl. causes to be in the Clergie and by the Clergie they ment them selues As you do likewise when ye say heretikes
who moste pernitiously raysed vp a schisme of the whole Churche and had Circumcelions bothe a madde and fierce kinde of men whiche murthered with swordes maymed with Sythes and with Lyme mingled with Vinegar put oute the eyes of the true beleeuers And what coulde the Emperour do but chastise suche that deserued any punishement whatsoeuer although they had helde no hereticall errour besides and yet notwithanding euen agaynst these the punishement of death was so little defired that euen S. Augustine did withstande the Shiriffe when he sent out a sharper edict fearing that he should kill any And so broughte to passe that a more milde edicte was set foorth For as then all the Emperours punishment consisted in a forfeit of money in taking away their goods froÌ„ the Donatistes churches giuing theÌ„ to the churches of the true beleuers And if the bishops could not be corrected by any remedie they were banished but of killing there was no mention at al. And therfore against Pelagius there was neuer any motion of crauing the Emperors aide bicause he did not on this sort trouble the traÌ„quilitie of the coÌ„mon weale yea and that is more by the entreatie of the Bishop they which had payed their forfeiture had their money giuen theÌ„ agayne and their bishops reteyned their dignitie still in their Churches if they would change their opinioÌ„s So great was the lenitie of those daies towards heretikes and that such heretikes to There are many kindes of punishing besides the punishment of death Very farre in deede are they from this lenitie which now a dayes for euery word that either is strange to them or not vnderstoode they crie foorthwith to the fyre to the fyre Heere therefore betweene these deuines and me thereis no dissention but this that they considering what a great plague of religion it is that the church should be deuided into such factioÌ„s seeme more enclined to slaughter On the other side I am more slow considering wherto the parable of the Lord wherto the most holy mens interpretations wherto the lenitie and mildnesse of the ancient Bishops and of the Emperours against heretikes calleth vs then also thinking on this howe nowe and then mens affections mingle them selues in this businesse and how often suche remedies fall out otherwise last of all that sometymes the truthe is doubtfull and nowe and then it hapneth that he is in errour himselfe that layeth the heresie to an others charge many times neither partie vnderstaÌ„deth other and they agree in matter whyle they iarre in wordes neither dothe S. Hierome speake rashely in the dialogue agaynst the Luciferians vnder the person of the true beleeuer after this maner no body saythe he can take vpon him Christes victorie no body can iudge of men before the daye of iudgement if the Churche be nowe clensed whye reserue we the clensing to the Lorde there is a waye that to men seemeth righte but the endes of it leade euen to the bottome of hell In this errour of iudgement what certayne sentence can there be c. VVhat Hierome ment by these wordes is cleare to the learned Truely they haue hitherto so moued me that I am of opinion that we oughte not to come to the laste remedie before all meanes be tryed Least perchaunce either through a corrupt iudgement the innocent or at the least he that might be recouered do perish or else euen that which is right be condemned for euer Thus muche and a great deale more writeth Erasmus on this matter But by this first we sée Erasmus iudgement and yet is he not counted a Donatiste Secondly he so describeth the Donatistes that these two witnesses of Iesu Christe which moste paciently tooke their death nor inuaded any others lyfe be fully cleared of this criâ—… Thirdly he so setteth the Donatistes out that beyonde all the former comparisons the Papistes of all other rome néerest them in cruell bloudsucking in prouoking and setting vpon other that prouoks them not in farre more cruell tormentes than of swordes sythes lime and vinegar yea they haue lefte no vnnaturall cruelties nor mischieuous trecheries vndeuised and vnpractised Fourthly he sheweth agaynst this popishe tyrannie euen where they will not suffer the examination of the truthe howe contrarie it is to the fathers and auncient Byshops whome they crake to succéede Fifthly where you M. Stap. falsely cite S. Augustine agaynst vs Erasmus truely â—…iteth him agaynst you shewing what clemencie the Emperours vsed euen to manyfest heretikes and what crueltie you practise agaynst the true beléeuers In times past saith Erasmus the Ecclesiasticall mildnesse did mitigate the seueritie of Princes And now the crueltie of certaine Monkes except it were mitigated by the mildnesse of Princes would burst out into more than the Scithians vnmercifull rage Thus we séethese two that ye â—…ayte at are not alone they shall haue good companie if they be Donatistes for disallowing manslaughter But now what if these twoo reiected it not at all but onely shewed the exact difference betwéene the old lawe or manâ—… politike lawes and the Gospell Will you denie that the Gospell that is to say the glad tidings of reconciliation forgiuenesse and saluation wrought by Iesus Christ is the lawe of grace and full of mercie I thinke M. St. ye will not denie this for shame Then should ye consider that the Gospell in it selfe killeth not but laboureth to saâ—…e it sendeth killing to the lawe the exercise threates and external punishment whereof is not altogither taken away by the Gospell but is forcible to the transgressours Nor the Gospell taketh away ciuill or polytike lawes from Princes nor the sworde to execute them on the euil doers And yet is there a manifest distinction betiâ—…éene the one and the other and so are euen your Sorbonists driuen to yéeld to Erasmus Quamuis Euangelium c. Although the Gospell do not expresly and plainly shew that Heretikes should be burned yet the lawes ciuill which are conformed to the law naturall which the Gospell doth not abrogate do decree that they should be put to death and burned So that neither be such lawes comprehended in the Gospell nor otherwise allowed than indirectly that is to say for the importunitie of the wicked And in this sense their wordes are not amisse But what sense soeuer ye make of their wordes ye can not proue them Donatists And yet if thus much also were graunted you doth this either charge vs that we be Donatists not allowing them therein if they had any such opinion â–ª or doth it cléere you Nay it once againe proueth you more Donatists For in very déede the Denatistes refused not simplie that the Prince should punish heretikes no nor by death neither if he would haue held with them and at their bare instigations haue punished the true beleuers by death they would haue then allowed it set him more on yea haue layed to their owne hands and
you captiously gybe and cauill for that belongeth not to supreme gouernment But that he is so the supreme gouernour in ouerséeing the consecration and deliuerie of the true foode wherewith the people of God ought to be fedde that euen he ouerséeth the féeder himselfe And for this cause the King is called of the Prophete the nourishing father and Quéenes are named Nourses that although the ministerie of féeding pertaine to the ministers yet the prouision for the foode the ouersight that the children of God be duely fedde with the right milke with the true bread and water of lyfe belongeth to the Princes And therefore haue they the name of nourses not to nourishe them in ciuill matters and corporall fâ—…de onely but as in ciuil so in â—…acte verbi in the milke of the worde of God also Is this only the cherishing of the good childe by giuing landes reuenewes maintenaunce and lyuing to the Churche Is this onely the displing of the frowarde childâ—… or as ye call it the punishing of the heretike No M. Stapleton Lyra his exposition and yours doe not agrée He sayth they are nourses what to doe to feede whom the faithfull ones wherewith with the milke of the worde whose worde euen the worde and sacraments of God. Wherof sith the ministery and execution belongeth not vnto them but to the ministers it followeth necessarily thervpon that the prouision direction appointment care and ouersight which is the supreme gouernement belongeth to them And this is that which Lyrâ—… confesseth the B. vrgeth of Constantine that he was such another nourse as did kepe defend maintaine vpholde and feede the pore faithfull ones of Christ yea caried them in his bosome as it were and procured them to be fedde did set forth proclamations not only against false religion but also to set forth to exhort and allure vnto the Christian faith caused not only the Idolatrous religion to bee suppressed but caused also on the other parte the true knowledge and religion of Christ to bee brought in and planted among his people and did not only make lawes for punishing heretikes and Idolaters but also reformed all manner abuses about Gods seruice Thus sayth the Bishop out of Eusebius did Constantine play the nourses part Nowe what saye you to all this M. Stapleton All this of Constantine say you is graunted and maketh nothing for you Whether it maketh for vs or no we will not contende But it maketh for the matter and being graunted it maketh vp the matter For and ye will graunt thus much from your heart inwarde which ye nowe graunt from the téeth outwarde by compulsion of the manifest truth ye might come home well ynough with a wannion and bestow your wit and trauell better than thus to graunt vnto and yet with pieuishnesse to wythstande the manifest truth of the matter The Quéenes Maiesties othe requireth no more of you to giue to hir than here ye graunt to giue to Constantine to set foorth Christes religion to make lawes and constitutions not only of punishment but of reformation of all maner abuses about Gods seruice to prouide that the Church be fed with Gods worde and in all pointes aboue sayde shewe her selfe a very nource of the Church committed to hir gouernement as the childe is to the nourse What one thing ecclesiasticall is not here comprehended or can ye shewe cause why she ought not to haue the same authoritie in hir dominions as well as Constantine to whome ye graunt it had in his if ye saye she doth not this but the contrarie this is but your wicked slaunder M. Stapleton But graunt hir hir interest and then trie that Hir right is one thing and whether she dischargeth well the same or no is another thing Graunt hir hir right as you doe to Constantine and then spare not to improue what ye can proue amisse Nowe hauing graunted thus much which in dede concludeth vp all the matter least he shoulde vtterly be discrâ—…dited of all his friendes he goeth about so much as he can in wrangling of wordes to defeate once againe all his former graunt according to his practise in the Chapter before For where the Bishop by the example of Constantyne proueth the Prince to be herein not only a nourse to the people but also to bee appoynted vnto them of God as it were the common or vniuersall Byshop as Eusebius testifieth of Constantine and Constantine to other Byshops calleth himselfe a Byshop signifying his carefull ouersight ouer all his people in setting forth Gods true religion Maister Stapleton first snappeth at thys worde Byshoppe secondlye hée challengeth the Byshoppe for curtalling Eusebius sentence And when Eusebius sayeth he calleth hym as it were a common or vniuersall Byshoppe I suppose yee meane not that hee was a Byshop in deede For your selfe confesse that Princes Bishops offices are farre distincted and disseuered that the one ought not to break into the office of the other The Bishops meaning is euident master Stap. and so are his words But your meaning is to brabble to tickle in the Readers heade a suspition that he confounded these offices Is there no difference betwéene these sayings he was as it were a Bishop and he was a Bishop in dede Yes M. St. and ye were not a very wrangler in dede ye might perceyue by these wordes as it were he plainly ment and as it were spake it that he was no B. in deede And what though he were no Bishop in dede in the function and office of a Bishops ministerie no more was he also a nourse in deede nor the people were suckling babes in deede nor the worde of God is milke in deede yet as these things be not falsly spoken but being borowed speaches in their senses import not onely a true but a more excellent vnderstanding than the bare wordes vsually betoken so the Emperour being named to be as it were a common or vniuersall Bishop and yet in deede being no Bishop it argueth that he had this name bicause of his common and vniuersall gouernment ouersight and care ouer all Bishops and causes Ecclesiasticall This shift therefore to slinke away from the manifest meaning of the wordes by threaping on the Bishop this kindnesse that he shoulde meane to proue him a very Bishop in dede is a very meane shift though it haue in dede a shrewde meaning Master Stapleton And if you did so meane say you Eusebius himself would soone confounde you if you reherse Constantines whole sentence that he spake to the Bishops What a good year meane ye M. St. ye vrge this meaning further than néedes that the B. should meane to make the Emperor a Bishop in the Bishoply ministerie therfore curtalled as ye call it Eusebius sentences If Eusebius sentence set it downe as whole as ye list confound them that meane to confound these offices it will neuer soone or late confound the B. the popish Bishops
it may rather confounde for they confounde their offices turning Bishops not as it were into lay men but into lay men in deede What the Bishops wordes do meane is most playne to a man of meane witte that list not to Iangle about nothing neither the wordes importe any such meaning nor this is any thing in question the ministeriall office but the supreme gouernment which are two farre different things But since that to no purpose ye chalenge the B. for curtalling Eusebius words let vs behold how you do set them downe For thus say you he saith to the Bishops Vos quidem eorum quae intus sunt in Ecclesia agenda ego vero eorum qua extra sunt Episcopus à Deo sum constitutuâ—… You are Bishops saith he of those thinges that are to be done within the Church I am Bishop of outwarde thinges which answere of his may satisfie any reasonable man for all that ye bring in here of Constantine or all that ye shall afterwarde bring in which declareth him no supreme Iudge or chiefe determiner of causes Ecclesiasticall but rather the contrarie and that he was the ouerseer in ciuill matters And the most that may be enferred hereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt Ye would faine I sée M. Stapl. reuoke your graunt and it could be cleanly conueyde or so to limite it that it might not appéere ye haue granted that that all your fellowes denie But this reuocation is to late Neuerthelesse fuli pretely ye compasse the matter to defeate all these most plaine not wordes but doings of Constantine by shoouing at this name B. shop in the Emperour which in any case ye caÌ„ not abide And therefore as who though B. went aboute to confounde the offices of a Bishop and of a Prince and thereto had concealed Eusebius words ye solemnly take on yâ—…n to set them out both in Latine and in English. But tell me by that false faith of yours M. Stapleton why ye haue not translated the wordes aright in English that ye haue set downe in Latine did ye sée in déede they made nothing for you but rather much against you is the English of intus in Ecclesia within the Church And the English of eorum quae extra Outward ciuill things or matters or Ego vero c. Episcopus à ' Deo sum constitutâ—… I am a Bishop what is manifest corruption of plaine wordes and euident sense if this be not this is past cutting of the tayle M. St. or slitting his nose and paring his eares to dresse it like a perfect curtall but euen to cutte both buttockes and heade away and make it a carrion karkasse this translating is trans I ordanem in déede But the wordes of Constantine the sense are plaine You saith he speaking to the spirituall pastours are Bishops of those thinges that in the Churche are to be done within or inwardly But I am appointed of God a Bishop of those things that are forthout or outwardly As who should say your Bishoply office in Gods Churche is in the ministeris of those things that worke inwardly that perce the heart enter into the soule cleaue the thoughtes in sunder and properly belong to the inwarde man the liuely worde of god My Bishoply office in Gods Churche is distinguished from this and is in things without that is in the outwarde setting forth and publique direction of Gods worde to be duly taught by you Thus both their offices were in Gods Church the matter and groundworke of both their Bishoprikes was Gods true religion But the doing of the one was pertayning to the inwarde man the doing of the other to the outwarde man. And this is the very distinctioÌ„ that Constantine maketh which being not falsely translated as you do and so misunderstoode may satisfie as ye say any reasonable man But your vnderstanding is very vnreasonable to vnderstand by inward things things ecclesiasticall and by outward things only ciuill things in déede they be out and quite out of the consideration of the Churche But wherefore then called he him selfe a Bishop also with them yea an vniuersall Bishop as Eusebius termeth him but to declare that his ouersighte was in the same matter that was theirs the matter was Gods truth and Religion in bothe the manner was outwarde or inwarde as eithers Bishoprike required Otherwise if he had meant onely of ciuill matters as you expounde he had bene no more a Bishop thereby than the very Soldane or great Turke or any other Heathen Prince that ouersee their ciuill matters very circumspectly And so as ye did in your fourth Chapter ye make Constantine for all these notable things in him that your selfe before haue graunted no better than an infidell Prince in this behalfe For by outward ye say is meant ciuill matters But the ciuill gouernement ye say also reacheth no furder than the peoples quietnesse wealth abundance and prosperouse maintenance that these thinges are common as well to the heathen as to the Christian gouernment Thinke ye M. Stapleton these Fathers meant no furder gouernment nor in other matters than these when they called Constantine an vniuersall Bishop and that Constantine measured his office no furder when he called him selfe by the name of a Bishop â–ª for shame M. Stapleton deface not to Christian a Prince after so Turkish a manner nor thereto so manifestly falsifie your authour nor abuse your reader with such a shamelesse impudence Well say you And the moste that may be inferred thereof is that he had the procuration and execution of Churche matters which I am assured all Catholikes will graunt May we be assured M. Stapleton on your worde that all your popish Catholikes will graunt euen thus much For I verily feare they will graunt it no furder than it pleaseth them And where ye are so readie to assure vs of others graunts what assurance haue we had alreadie of all your owne liberall graunts when ye were disposed to wrangle as now againe ye do for how agreeth this euen with your former graunt that Princes might make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion that Princes might take some regiment vppon them in Ecclesiasticall causes yea might do as much as all these ensamples specifie and that now ye make the most to be but the procuration and execution of Church matters Although what ye meane by these wordes ye tell not would ye haue them onely the Churches that is as you meane by the Churche onely the Priests proctours and executioners now truly ye limite them a full faire office But thinke ye the name of B. and vniuersall B. did importe nothing els was that the most that may be inferred thereof and yet that is more than onely to be their executioner as ye said before to be as ye adde here to it their proctour also Yea it is
vpon thē selues to whō they properly appertayne who in deede denie both Chryst the head and Christ the body that is his catholike Church And that as the Donatistes secte was condemned by Constantine Honorius and other Emperours the highe kings of Christendome So haue they withall condemned you master Stapl. that followe the Donatistes and so may and ought all christian Princes the Emperour nowe whose highe kingdomes besides a bare name in any matter of Christianitie ye make nothing to pull downe suche vsurpers of their highe kingdomes and set vp true and godly ministers in their places to whome they might and ought to submitte their heades vnder their spirituall ministerie To the whiche sorte as is shewed playnely out of Chrisostome your Popishe Priesthoode is cleane contrarie And therefore to returne your wordes vpon your selfe Ye are they that cutte in sunder the vnitie and peace of Christes Churche and rebell agaynst the promises of his Gospell Which Gospell ye can not abyde should come to light and therefore the highe kinges of Christendome should remoue and condemne you Whiche is a better argumente than yours M. Stap. and is sufficient to inferre the supremacie of these highe Kings and Princes The. 23. Diuision THe Bishop in his diuision prosecuting still the wordes of S. Paule Rom. 13. proueth further out of Chrysostome and Eusebius that as the Prince is Gods minister so this ministerie consisteth not onely in ciuill and temporall but also in the well ordering of the Church matters and their diligent rule and care therein The effecte of his argument is this The Prince as Chrysostome sayth prepareth the mindes of many to be made more appliable to the doctrine of the worde and is the great lighte and true preacher and setter foorth of true godlynesse as Eusebius sayth Ergo His ministerie consisteth as well in ecclesiasticall as ciuill causes The antecedent Eusebius proueth by the example of Constantine that his ministerie stretched to the setting foorth of godlynesse to al countreyes and that he preached God and not onely ciuil lawes by his Imperiall decrees and Proclamations And this he confirmeth by Constantines own confession that he taughte by his ministerie the religion and lawe of God that therby he caused the encrease of the true fayth And by the same put away and euerthrewe all the euils that pressed the worlde But the world in Constantines time was pressed with diuers schismes errours heresies false religions and many ecclesiasticall abuses and superstitions besides the heathen Idolatrie Ergo His ministerie stretched not onely ouer temporall causes but also ecclesiasticall Yea he counteth this his best ministerie Ergo. It belongeth to the Prince as well if not more than the other And so the Bishops argument followeth héerevpon that the Apostles sentence the Prince is Gods minister argueth the Princes charge and gouernement in all maner causes ecclesiasticall so well as temporall These proues of the Byshop béeing so euident M. Stap. answereth they are all insufficient saying I see ye not master Horne come as yet neere the matter I answere who is so blinde as he that seeth and will not see Were ye not of the number of those of whome Chryst sayth I came to iudgemēt into this worlde that those that see not shoulde see and those that see shoulde be made blind Ye might then both clearely see that he both cōmeth neere the matter and satisfieth it at large Excepte ye be as blinde of the matter also as ye pretende to be of these the Byshops proufes But if ye woulde haue followed your owne counsell euer to haue set before your eyes the state of the question in issue betwéene them ye shoulde well by this time haue seene that the Byshop digressed nothing frō it And that your selfe of self will or malice will not looke aright theron but cleane awrie stil starting aside and swaruing frō the marke for the nonce to picke occasions wheron to wrangle For wherfore I pray you do ye not see that the Bishop commeth not neere the matter I see not say you that Constantine changed religion plucked downe Altares deposed Byshops c. But that he was diligent in defending the olde and former faythe of the Christians Whatsoeuer you see or see not in Constantine master Stapl. all the world may see false dealing in you and how lyke an vnnaturall subiecte to your naturall Prince ye be As thoughe ye sawe that the Quéenes highnesse had changed religion excepte ye meane false religion and that ye might haue seene in Constantine also He changed the heathen religion of the Paynims and abolished it with all their Altares Byshops Priestes and temples and set foorth the true religion of Iesus Christe He chaunged likewise and abolished suche superstitions Idolatries schismes errours and heresies as troubled the Churche of Christe in his time Which you might easily haue seene in Constantines owne wordes by the Byshop cited That he put away and ouerthre we all the euils that pressed the worlde If you say ye can not yet see that he ment all spirituall and ecclesiasticall euils so well as temporall put on a payre of spectacles master Stapl that are not dymmed with affection and then shall ye see that of suche kinde as the good thinges were whiche he set foorth of suche kinde were the contrarie euils that he put away and ouerthrew but the good things that he set foorthe were true godlynesse decrees of God the religion of the moste holy law the most blessed fayth c. All whiche are matters moste spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo all the euils that he abolished were so well spirituall and ecclesiasticall as ciuill and temporall matters If ye say yet ye see nothing but that he was diligent in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians True in deede neither can ye see any other thing in the Quéenes Maiestie nor any authoritie is giuen héereby to Princes than as Constantine was to bee diligente in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians founded by Christ and taught by his Apostles And if any other since that time haue brought in any things besides that old and former fayth to remoue the same and reduce vs to the olde and former fayth of the Christians For as Tertullian sayth That is of the Lorde and that is truthe that was before deliuered but that which afterward was thrust in is bothe strange and false And so sayth Constantine I bothe called agayne mankind taught by my ministerie to the religion of the most holy lawe and also caused the moste blessed fayth should encrease grow vnder a better gouernor Nowe séeing that many poynts of the Popish fayth and doctrine haue cropen in since that time and manie of later yeres besides and contrarie to the olde and former fayth of the Cheistians taught by Christ and left vs written by the finger of the holy ghost sealed and confirmed by so many myracles to endure to the
Apologie All whiche though it be a plaine digression from the Bishoppes aunswere and the issue in question beeing aboute Images and Idolatrie yet such is his importunitie we muste followe master Stapleton not whether the cause requireth but whether hys ydle brayne pleaseth to runne at randon Otherwise the principall parte of this Counterblast beeing reiected to hys common place of other impertineÌ„t bibblebables he would crie oute that hée were not aunswered in suche a weightie matter And yet when all is done as it is nothing to the present purpose so is it to no effect in any other matter at all For all his quarrell consisteth in these two poyntes The one that the Homelie wrongfully named Theodorus Lascaris for Michaell Paleologus The other for a decree of Ualence and 〈◊〉 agaynst Images For the former what Authours the Authour of that Homilie followed I knowe not howe be it he nameth not Theodorus Lascaris as you say master Stapleton but onely Theodorus neyther this missing of the Emperours name to him that woulde haue regarded the matter conteyned in the Homelie mighte bee thought worthie so great an outcrye excepte it were to you master Stapleton that still vse to stumble at a sirawe and leape ouer a blocke lyke to the Phareseys that Excolantes culicem Camelum glutiebant VVere stiffled with a gâ—…atte and yet swallowed a Camell Neyther was this so great an ouersight sythe Theodorus and Michaell were both of one tyme The one expelled the other and both still reteyned the name of Emperour For as Uolaterane sayeth Michaeligitur Paleologus c. Michaell Paleologus therefore at the same tyme inuaded the Empyre whiche two moste noble houses of Constantinople that is to saye the house of the Lascarie and the house of the Paleologie the one decayed the other lyfte vppe hir heade Theodorus Lascaris being thus expelled from the Citie of Constantinople yet raigned he still at Adrianople as the Emperour of Gréece And it is not vnlikely the occasion of his exile to haue bene about Images so well as other matters Syth the Gréeke and Latine Church haue stryued aboute the controuersie of Images nothing more and none so hotte For which matter chiefely the Pope rebelled from his alleageance and raysed all the diuision of the Empire in the Church of Christ that hath bene the chiefe decay and ruine thereof which onely sprang of the question of Images And yet sayth master Stapleton giuing vs no other warrantiss thereof than this his bare worde for Images VVhich had customably continued in the Greeke Church many hundreth yeares before and so reuerently afterwardes continued euen till Constantinople was taken by the great Turke and yet this good Antiquarie and Chronographer will needes haue the Grâ—…cians aboue seuen hundreth yeares togyther to haue beene Iconomachees that is Image breakers Are ye not ashamed master Stapleton to speake suche vntruthes euen where your selfe chalenge other of lyes For the authour of the Homelies noteth not here nor herevpon the dealing against Images all that space nor nameth any Iconomachees nor medleth any thing there with those 700. yeares that customably continued till Constantinople was taken by the Turke But onely of those yeares that customably continued from the primitiue Church till the time of the Empresse Irene The wordes of the Homelie are these These things were done in the Church about the yeare of our Lorde 760. Note here I pray you in this processe of the storie that in the Churches of Asia and Grece there were no Images publikely by the space of 700. yeares and there is no doubt but the primitiue Churche next the Apostles tymes was most pure Now where the words and meaning of the Homilie are most plaine and so true withal that ye could not gainsay it nor your Maister D. Harding coulde improue any point of B. Iewels chalenge about the same article ye wittingly wrest the wordes of the Homilie to the. 700. yeares preceding the taking of Constantinople by the great Turke chalenging the Homilie to alleage the Gretians to haue bene Iconomaches all that while thinking to fasten as ye call it a notorious lie on the Homilie But the Homilies truth is manifest and the lye lighteth on your selfe besides your rashnes to affirme without the booke on your owne fingers that for many hundreth yeres before Images customably continued in the Greke Church and so reuerently afterwardes continued euen till Constantinople was taken by the great Turke For the which though it would go harde with you to put you to your profe and to let it hang in suspence of a lye till ye haus confirmed it yet letting it passe I onely demaunde that if your Images haue such great force as your Legendes pretende howe chaunce they kept the Citie and their worshippers no better from the Turkes can they do no morethan the dumbe Idols that the Prophet speaketh of Habent gladium securim in manu se autem de bello latroâ—…ibus non liberant they haue a sword and an axe in their hand but they deliuer not themselues from warre and from theues Or rather if it be as ye say were the Grecians not deliuered ouer to those enimies as for their other vices so chiefly for that their Idolatrie as the children of Israell for the like were ledde captiue into Babylon The other thing that Maister Stapleton noteth in the Homelie is this Many other shamefull lies are there saith he to disgrace deface and destroy the Images of Christ his Saintes especially one wheras he sayth that the Emperor Valence and Theodosius made a proclamation that no man shoulde paint or carue the crosse of christ And thervpon gaily and iolily triuÌ„pheth vpon the catholiks VVheras the Proclamation neither is nor was to restrayne all vse of the crosse but that it should not be painted or carued vpon the grouÌ„d VVhich these good Emperours not Valens for he was the valiant captaine and defendâ—…r of the Arians but Valentinianus and Theodosius did of great godly reucreÌ„ce that they had to the crosse enact And yet as grosse as soul as loud a lying fetch as this is M. Iewell walketh euen in the verye same steppes putting Valens for Valentinian and alleaging this edict as general against al Images of the crosse You take vpon you lustily M. Stapl. to chalenge in your brode language both the Homilie the B. of Sarum â–ª But it is your maner there is no shift ye must be borne withall chiefly in this your extrauagant by quarrel Otherwise if ye had coÌ„sidered more indifferently the homilies the B. allegatioÌ„ no doubt you would haue tempered your pen with more sobrietie ye chalenge either of them for two lies in this allegation the one for putting the name of Valens for Valentinian the other for citing that simply that was conditionall which though it were as ye pretend yet neither of these the B. or the Homilies author are to be
that any euer noted him of heresie in this point And I thinke my opinion therein to be more true than yours for proofe whereof I will be reported by such witnesses as I thinke you will not except against euen by your Colledge of Diâ—…es in Louaine Who affirme in their censure vpon this authour that Pâ—…a solum religiosa com â—…endat c. Nicephorus coÌ„mendeth only godly and religious things Nicephoâ—… historia ecclesiaâ—…â—…yois mandâ—… c. not only the ecclesiastical historie of faith and religion may be printed but with much and publike profite of the Church This coulde not haue bene true but an euident false lie if that the author as you saye had so highly aduaunced the Emperour for restoring and maintaining of that heresie Moreouer in the verie title of the boke priuileged by the Emperour Ferdinand he is entituled with this Epithete scriptor verè catholicus â–ª a writer Catholike indeede and so likewise by that name of a Catholike writer he is highly commeÌ„ded to the Emperor Ferdinande both by Lazius a catholike and Langus a catholike as you accept the name of catholike who traÌ„slated him out of Greke into Latine at the said Emperors commaundemeÌ„t Who also in plain speach to the Emperor affirmeth Volumen Nicephori de vera synceraque pietate conscriptum esse the volume of Nicephorus is writteÌ„ eueÌ„ of true sincere godlines But what néede we cite all these against you when that herein ye coÌ„troll your self in your fourth boke of this counterblast for although ye there saye he is no Papist nor a Latine but a Grecian infected also with their schisme yet notwithstaÌ„ding ye grauÌ„t he is in al other things catholike thus ye mollifie the matter with the name of scisme dally with Nicephor there which is yet somewhat gentler than to make him an heretike an high aduancer of heresies as here ye do And there yée promised to stande to his arbitrement about you Popes praises why then so storme ye at him here for his iudgement in the Princes praises But still I sée we must beare with you so must al your doctors especially sith ye be here caried awaye in so huge a raging tempest of your furie against the allegations of Nicephorus here cited by the B. And good cause ye had to kick and winch thereat for they rub ye a litle on the gall and therefore you not onely slaunder Nicephorus being the author but fourthly also and wherevpon you chiefly stande most 〈◊〉 ye reuile the Emperour calling his doinges wicked working and his person a wretched heretike whom notwithstanding this your railing not onely Nicephorus commendeth for a most godly Prince but also LaÌ„gus in his owne preface and his other notes to the Preface of Nicephorus giuing him as great a praise saying he was an Emperour flourishing in all vertues and many ornamentes Againe An Emperour begotten by the verye prouidence of God. Againe Godlynesse and religion was from the beginning of his Empire his greatest care And that to him were giuen the chiefest vertues of an Emperour â–ª Againe In this Emperour being absolute almost in all vertues and ornamentes is portrayed apaterne of a most excellent Prince Yea that he was another Noe another Moses Againe This was the Emperours chiefe prayse that he attayned all the whole vertues of the best auncient Princes And that the Emperours godlynesse and religion is commended chiefly among his other vertues Thus doth your catholike LaÌ„gus in his notes vpoÌ„ Nicephor preface set him out coÌ„trary to that you say was a wicked worker and wretched heretike But wherto in the end do you so reuile this emperor forsoth euen to this end by him not only to deface the B. allegation but also to dashe dawne the Princes supreme gouernment as though it consisted altogither or chiefly herevpon For so you make your conclusion of this part saying And thus withall ye see vpon how good amaÌ„ vpon how good a cause M. Horne buildeth his new supremacie to plucke downe the Popes old supremacie As for the newnesse of this supremacie and likewise the oldnesse of your Popes supremacie is nowe M. Stapleton no coÌ„uenient place to discusse it hath partly ben touched before shal God willing be examined more herafter In the mean seasoÌ„ good leaue haue ye to crake of old vpbraid new at your pleasure so long as you bring no new but old rotteÌ„ proues therof though here ye alledge neither new nor old at al you wil neuer I perceiue leaue your old fashioÌ„s ye threap on the B. that he buildeth this supremacy on this emperor No M. St. the B. buildeth on no such grouÌ„ds but on the word of god It is you that build the Popes supremacie on meÌ„s donatioÌ„s the most of your Popish doctrines traditioÌ„s of meÌ„s inueÌ„tioÌ„s The grounde of the Bishops argument as ye haue hearde was out of Gods worde that the Prince is Gods minister only he shewed it out of S. Augustine and Chrysostome and exemplified it by the example of Constantine wherein this ministerie doth chiefly consist With whome sith Nicephorus doth so agrée in the description of a Princes chiefe ministerie were Nicephorus otherwise an heretike or were he not in this he sheweth himselfe none and were it Andronicus or Emanuell and were he an hereticke in that point or were he sounde the Bishop medleth not withall nor groundeth or buildeth vpon him Onely he setteth forth Nicephorê° iudgemeÌ„t either what this Prince was or what he ought to be And proueth the the things which he commeÌ„deth him for whether he deserued such commendation or no let other examine are the principall pointes of a Princes chiefe ministerie And what hath the B. done here that your Catholike Langus doth not commending this Emperor to Ferdinandus likening Ferdinandus vnto him saying of him that either he was Sicut â—…um c. Such another as our historier depainteth him out in his ornaments in the moste part of all vertue to bee worshipped most like your Maiestie or else in the person of him declaring that he ought to be such an one as he described which is the maner of some Philosophers and also of Historiographers composing orations and bookes of great Princes he hath confirmed so many and so great ornamentes of your Maiestie foreseeing as it were euen then in his minde that his worke hereafter being turned into Latine shoulde at length be published vnder that Princes name whom he in Greke had most truly adorned with his prayse If it were lawful thus for your Langus to apply these Emperors prayses to the Emperor Ferdinand may not the Bishop apply them in general as a paterne of all good Princes duties and therfore where ye scoffe at this calling it in scorne a goodly and godly president setting your moâ—…kes aside I maye well aunswere with Langus whatsoeuer the Emperours iudgement or the Emperours life were or the author also of these
doth Nicephorus ouer the Priestes the Bishops and the whole Church acknowledge in this Emperour for their reformation as he saith so nere as â—…e could to the primatiue Church Which notwithstanding as it was not true in this errour so was it not I graunt also in diuerse other corruptions agréeing some of them with the dregges of Poperie Yet for all this he that sayth Nicephorus sayth so neither lieth on him nor therevpon fauouâ—…eth their errours And he that sayth so in this poynt of the princes supreme dealing and deliuering of the Grecians from that Thraldom to the Pope into the which Michaell perforce had brought them shall not onely say true in saying Nicephorus sayth so but also that therein Nicephorus or any other so saying sayth therein most true he reformed religion to the purenesse thereof But nowe that master Stapleton will haue the Bishop clapped on the back for an Heretike against the holy ghost for shewing onely Nicephorus wordes who shall clappe on the backe Lazius Langus and all the doctours of Paris and Louaine for setting out allowing and approuing this authour to be verie Catholike in all poynts not making any exception of Heresie at all If there be any vpright iudgement in your selfe master St. let vs see you roll in your rayling rhetorike and rore agaynst them Go clap them on the backe and say patrisas and ye dare Ye might so be clapped your selfe by the héeles or haue a fagot clapped on your shoulders if ye did to teach you to kéepe your clattering clapper better in your heade Your second part is somwhat better directed to the allegation of the Bishop out of S. Paule with Chrysostomes and Cyrils iudgement therevpon Which you say is needelesse and farre from the matter c. That prosperitie of the common welth and true religion springeth from good regiment or Magistrates which we denie not say you and that the decay of religion destroyeth or deadly weakeneth the other which is also true Iâ—… ye graunt these to be true master Stapleton bowe chaunce in your marginall notes and store of vntruthes ye quarell so sore thereat There ye say there is no such words in Saint Paule and say This would be noted how ye racke S. Paule he nameth not religion at all he doth not attribute religion to the rule and gouernment of the ciuill Magistrate but peace and tranâ—…llitie onely in godlynesse Thus ye chalenge the Bishop there for falsehoode â—…nd racking How truly shall appeare in the aunswere to your bederoll of vntruthes Only now I note yoâ—… vnconstant dealing For here ye denie it not but say it is â—…rue all that the Bishop hath sayd thereon and graunt the â—…e as not preiudiciall to your cause But marke M. Stap. what here ye graunt and confesse to be true That prosperitie of the common welth and true religion springeth from the good regiment of Magistrates If this be so as ye say then the Princes regiment and direction in both these next vnder God is simplie the principall is the fountaine of them both And as the ouersight direction and chiefe authoritie of setting forth the one so the ouersight direction and the chief authoritie of setting forth the other floweth from the Prince if either of those do spring from him For howe can that spring from him whiche ye neyther make to bée deriued by anie meanes from him nor he to haue any direction or gouernement off nor anie taste rellishe care or â—…edling therewith as nothing belonging to him Is this to be a spring or fountaine of it Which syth ye graunte vnto the Prince whether wittingly or vnaduisedly I knowe not nor by what cautele ye â—…de to 〈◊〉 off the matter it is 〈◊〉 simplie to estaâ—… the Bishops 〈◊〉 and to 〈◊〉 your cause and 〈◊〉 your craftes with your owne plaiâ—…e words that here ye say it is true and ye will not denie it the prosperitie of the common weale and true religion springeth from the good regiment of Magistrates Whervpon it foloweth that not only true religion belongeth to their regiment out their regiment being a spring thereof hath a superioritie and iâ—… the heade as it were in direction and setting forth true Religion among their subiects as the spring hath a superioritie and is the heade in casting forth pure water into the brokes or riuers Thus ye sée master Stapleton that the Bishops allegation is so necessarie and nearâ—… to the matter that both it concludeth the question in hande and your selfe in the end are â—…ayne or of force driuen to yelde thereto in this poynt And vpon this dependeth the other poynt which ye graunt also to be true That the decay of Religion destroyeth or deadly weakeneth the other Wherein ye say weâ—…l Master Stapleton if ye graunt it to the purpose wherefore it is alleaged that these two thinges prosperitie and religion are necessarily â—…o be combined in a Prince whose regiment ye haue graâ—…ed to be a spring from whence both of these doe come For so not onely Saint Paule and Chrysostome expounding him Cyrill also meaneth but euen Nicephorus the authour last mentioned in the sayde Prince doth commende that felicitie and the true worship of GOD were so knitâ—…e in him that godlynesse by hir force had drawne felicitie to hiâ—… or rather GOD had ioyned and tempered them togither to the ende that by the helpe of bothe these hee might become both in deede a marueylous helpe and succour and also a steadie stay and firmament as it were to diuine oâ—… Ecclesiasticall matters beginning to fall away And to this purpose are these two so ioyned togither in the Prince that as the Bishop sayeth and you doe not gainesay thâ—… same The wante of the one especially of religion destroyth or deadly weakeneth the other Sith now therfore the B. and you agrée that these pointâ—… are true and howe nere eyther of these doe comprehende the matter in controuersie is apparant wherefore doe you in néedelesse examples and farre from the matter spende the time to prooue that which neither the Bishop nor you â—…enye As the vtter ruine say you of the Empyre of Greece proceeding from the manifolde heresies especially that whereof we haue discoursed doth to well and to plainly testifie And therefore I wold wishe you and maister Foxe with others but you two aboue all others with good aduisement to note that as the wicked Iewes that crucified Christ about the holy time of Easter were at the verye same time or thereabout besieged of the Romaines and shortlye after brought to such desolation and to such miserable wretched state as in a maner is incredible sauing that beside the foreseeing and foresaying therof by Christ there is extant at this day a true faithful report â–ª eueÌ„ so your dearlings the GreciaÌ„s whose error but not alone but accompanied with some other that you at this day stoutly defend yet especially rested in this heresie against the
holy ghost that ye terme with an vnclean an impure mouth pure religion were in their chiefe citie of Constantinople in the time of Constantinus sonne to Iohn nephew to Andronicus your Emanuels father euen about VVhitfontide at which time the Catholike Church in true and syncere fayth concerning the holye ghost keepeth a solemne festiuall day of the holy ghost sodenlye by the wicked Turkes besieged and shortly after the Citie and the whole Greeke Empire came into the Turkes handes and possession VVherein God seemeth as before to the Iewes so afterwardes to the Grecians as it were with pointing and notifying it with his finger to shew and to notifie vnto all the worlde the cause of the finall destruction aswell of the one as of the other people What is all this to the purpose M. Stapleton what maketh this against the Bishoppes matter or to further yours except to lengthen your tale although it séemeth that your tale is false neyther you agrée with your selfe therein it is false bicause at that time the great Turke besieged and wonne the Empire of Gréece the Grecians had forsaken this heresie yea and that more is acknowledged the Popes supremacie wherein the question lyeth whether in so doing they fell into another or no for after their agréement at Lions councell by Michaell Paleologus and their reuolt agayne vnder Andronicus the elder Iohn the sonne of Emanuell nephewe to Andronicus the yonger whom before ye mentioned came to the councell at Florence that was called in spits of Basill councell and agréed with Pope Eugenius whome Basill Councell had deposed and so continued in agréement with the Pope till in Constantinus reigne brother to this Iohn the Turke besieged and ouercame them And so your tale is false that say they rested in this opinion till their captiuitie Whereas a good while before they had quite forsaken it after they fully vnderstoode the Latines opinion theron which before they did not Secondly ye agrée not with your owne tale for both in your Preface and hereafter in many places ye ascribe the captiuitie of them chiefly to their not acknowledging of the Pope and so doth Uolaterane which is as false as the other For at that time they were fully agréed with him And here as one that had forgotten his former tale you ascribe the chiefe cause of their captiuitie to the heresie against the holy ghost and so make your proportion betwéene the Iewes bondage at Easter and theirs at Whitsontide at what time is celebrated the solemne feast of the holy ghost And thereon ye take vppon you as though ye were of Gods secrete counsayle to tell vs howe God poynted out the matter wyth hys finger But where to is all this so farre fetched about how is it brought into the purpose For M. St. will haue nothing here that is nedelesse and farre from the matter forsooth this must be presupposed that the Grecians are the B â–ª dearlings â–ª and that the Bishop is of the same opinion bicause he alleged Nicephorus as is before said And her vpon he maketh his marginall note a good aduert sement for M. Horne to consider the cause of the destruction of Constantinople Where by this rule he may saye it is a good note for Langus for Lazius for the Sorbonistes of Paris for his owne Doctors and good maisters at Louaine where he professeth himselfe a student in Diuinitie to beware the same for they haue commended Nicephorus to all the worlde and they allowe his doctrine for pure religion in all pointes not excepting this and therforeal the Papists be belike the Grecians dearlings and denie the proceeding of the holye ghost from the father and the sonne so is it a fitter admonition for the Popish catholikes than for the B. or any other Protestant whose faith in this point and all other concerning the holy ghost the Papistes can not blemish And yet by your leaue M. St. the Papistes be not very sounde in all pointes concerning the holy ghost as I shall shewe you further when you require the same and therefore they had more néede of the twayne to beware of this ensample But since M. Stapl. will so faine haue this cause considered of the Grecians captiuitie I graunt him this their errour might worthily be noted a sufficient cause or any oter errour or naughtinesse of life might well deserue the heauy hande of God and the scourge of such a tyrant as the Turke But whatsoeuer they or we to whome God be mercifull at Gods handes doe deserue not entering into Gods iudgement but speaking of men the most likely and chiefest cause of this Empires decay is euen the verye Pope him selfe his ambitious treacherie first spoyled and diuided the Empire into twaine and made all the West part forsake their sworne obedience And hath also so spoyled this part of the Empyre in the west that besides the bare title of the Empire of Rome the Emperour God wote hath little or nothing the Pope in effect hath all And where the Emperor of Rome had wont to be Lorde to the Bishop of Rome and to other Bishops besides The Bishop of Rome is nowe Lorde to the Emperour of Rome and to all other Princes besides and to attaine to his triple diademe ouer all Princes he hath neuer ceased to stirre and moue such garboyles as all Christendome hath lost onely the Pope hath woon therby and the barbarous nations haue ouerrunne all Europe Asia and Affricke No maruayle then if at the length Christian Princes powers being diuided and weakened with continuall warre and chiefly set on or maintained by the Pope especially against the Grecians the Turks at the last haue ouercome the Empire being destitute of forrein ayde and of themselues giuen to wanton effeminatenesse Although thus much I may iustly note they euer well ynough defended and maintained them selues till they acknowledged obedience to the Pope who was the first cause of their ruine Which done they neuer throue after but were in short time besieged cleanâ—… ouercome When they had once giuen their soules captiue to the tirannie of the Pope their bodies not long after became thrall to the slauerie of the Turke Which séemeth rather to be Gods iust plague vnto them wherein to vse your owne wordes as it were with pointing and notifying with his finger he sheweth to all the worlde to beware of these two aduersaries the spirituall enimie the Pope and the bodilie enimie the Turke Thus M. Stapleton your néedlesse admonition toucheth your selfe and your Pope nearer than ye were a wist Neuerthelesse not so content making as though you had as in déede ye haue ouershotte your selfe you pretende to drawe nearer home But what speake I of Greece say you wee neede not to run to so farre yeares or countries the case toucheth vs much nearer the Realme of Boheme and of late yeares of Fraunce and Scotlande the noble Countrie of Germanie with some other that I
Prince had it What if there were an heretike Pope what if there were a Pope not only by his natiue countrey a Turke but also one that practiseth priuie conspiracies leagues yea â—…reasons with the Turke against christian Princes in all mischiefe of life yea and errours of fayth also were worsse than the Turke and that the Turkes erroneous Alkaron speaketh yet more reuerently of Iesus Christ than doth the pope that pretendes to be his vicar What if there were a Iew pope or one that would cause Christians to receiue Iudaisâ—…e yea to cruâ—…e Christ agayne What if there were a heathen Pope or one that caused as grosse Idolatrie to be vsed as dyd the Paynims and beléeued as much of heauen or hell of God or the diuell of the bodies resurrection or of the soules immortalitie as the Epicures or the Saduces dyd What if there were a whoremaster Pope yea a whore Pope a Sodomiticall Pope a Iudas Pope a Neronian Pope an Antichrist Pope and suche a Pope as hath done more for the diuels kingdome than eueÌ„ the deuill him selfe could haue done If this clause were for euer vnited vnto the Pope how should we do then master St I pray you helpe vs héere at a pinche out of the briers If ye shall denie there can come any suche Popes shewe why there may not come suche hereafter as well as there hath gone suche heretofore If ye denie there hath bene any such Popes heretofore and put me to my profes wel then I must proue it and God willing so will I when ye shall bid me But if beforehand ye thinke I shal be able to do it and you wil preuent me with a shift of descant that though they were such ill Popes yet in respect they were popes they were none of al these things but in respect they were meÌ„ for so ye afterward excuse y matter to which distinctioÌ„ there you shall be answered God willing yet here admitting also this distinction why may not I replie that what soeuer the person shall be that shall haue hereafter the crowne of this realme the statute and the lawe respecteth not the man that shall haue it but the estate and authoritie that â—…e shall haue and entendeth not that he is a man but that he is a king and so medling not with his vices and affections setteth out his duetie and office what he oughte to do what maner of man he ought to be in this respect he hath this authoritie And so euery way your wicked and malicious presupposall is answered simply but truely I trust howsoeuer other woulde answere it better or as iâ—… better deserueth giue it no answere at all Nowe hauing cast foorth your presupposition as a snaring bayte to bréede a scruple of some marueylous inconuenience and after your false maner of concluding hauing inferred that of the statute that it implyeth not ye begin to buskle vp your feathers and crow saying This kinde of regiment therefore so large and ample I am right well assured ye haue not proued nor neuer shall be able to proue in the auncient Church while ye liue In déede for that kinde of regiment master Stapleton that you inferre and would as a maâ—…e set vp it is a Papal or Turkish regiment and that the Bishop shall neuer be able to proue it I bolde well with you nor be goeth about to proue it but to improue it But that kinde of regiment that he here setteth downe of the Quéenes Maiestie that will he proue and hath alreadie proued it for al this your Thrasonicall crake which I commit to muster in your common place thereon And let this his fellowe go with it for companie VVhen I say say you this kinde of regiment I walke not in confuse and generall wordes as ye doe but I restrayne my selfe to the foresayde perticulers nowe rehersed and to that platforme that I haue alreadie drawne to your hande and vnto the which master Feckenham must pray you to referre and applie your euidences otherwise as he hath so may he or any man else the chiefe poynts of all being as yet on your side improued still refuse the othe For the which doings neither you nor any man else can iustly be grieued with him You maye saye like a lustie Gentleman what ye please master Stapleton I say this kinde of regiment and that kinde of regiment and tell vs of your walkes of your restrayntes of your platformes that ye haue drawne but these are but néedelesse vauntes Tell vs of that regiment that is in question walke there a Gods name restraine your selfe to that be contente with the platforme that is alreadie drawne to your handes otherwise master Feckenham and all other will sée that ye doe but brabble And as ye would drawe the Bishop to driue his proues thither whether he is not bounde to referre them so ye doe not onely deceyue the Reader but offer wrong also euen to master Feckenham whome ye take in hande to defende and here ye make him such a childe that he knewe not how to frame his issue nor wherein he would be resolued But M. Feckenham if ye defende him thus may biâ—… you meddle with your Fortresses and let him alone with his cause And if the Bishop haue not in these two meanes satisfied the demaund of his issue then tell master Feckenham that he may still refuse the othe But if the Bishop haue proued by any of these two poynts the Scriptures or the Doctours master Feckenhams issue that he desired to be proued that is any such gouernment as the Queenes Maiestietaketh on hir in ecclesiasticall causes then can not maister Fecken iustly refuse the othe but must vvith heartie thanks yelde therevnto as he hath promised by wryting to the Bishop or else he shall be holden as an vniust man and as obstinate a wrangling Papist as you shewe your selfe to be Which wilfull refusall though it be a griefe to all the godly affected that beholde your frowarde blindnesse yet shall it be the lesse griefe vnto them when they sée that neyther truth nor honestie will reclaime you Here after the vaunts of your selfe and the excusing of master Feckenham ye enter into your thirde part of excusing all the Papists calling it in your margine A reasonable defence of the Catholikes for refusing the othe This reasonable defence hath two partes the one the excuse of the Papists the other the accusing of the Bishop For the former sayth master Stapleton As neither with vs master Horne ought you or any man else be grieued for declaring the truth in this poynt as if we were discontented subiects or repining against the obedience we owe to our gracious Prince and countrey No man is grieued with you master Stapleton as ye pretende for declaring the truth in this poynt or any other but onely for your not declaring the truth but concealing the truth and outfacing the matter with false countenances of
tâ—…cet consentire videtur for he that holdeth his peace seemeth to consent Howbeit I crie you mercie the case is altered For there ye defend your client here ye oppugne your aduersarie And belike ye haue some priuiledge from Rome euer to turne the matter so as may best serue your turne But and it were not for this your priuiledge surely I woulde further aske ye howe chaunce so soone ye haue forgotten your late vaunt and euen in this leafe wherin ye crake that ye walke not in generall wordes but restrayne your selfe to particulars now stande quarrelling about the generall words of the statute and mocke the B. for particulars if ye shalâ—… laye forth your priuiledge to doe this when ye thinke ye may get some aduauntage thereby yet I thinke your priuiledge stretcheth not both to wrest the state of the question in hande and of the issue to the statute and to wrest and belâ—…e the statute as ye please and thereof to gather what false conclusion ye lyst For first ye do the Bishop wrong â—…th Maister Feckenham hath set vp his issue to be prooued Anye suche gouernement in Ecclesiasticall causes to driue the bishop from thence to the wordes of the statute that expresse it in all ecclesiasticall causes Herein ye offer the bishop wrong For by this issue betwéene them though the Bishop in euery Prince continually alleage not ensamples in euery Ecclesiasticall cause but nowe and then in all nowe and then in some for your Popes daily encroched on Princes and at length got the mâ—…st of all yet hath the Bishop proued and satisfied the vertue of this issue Any such gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Howbeit ye do him further wrong to chalenge him here for leauing out any poynt of gouernment in any Ecclesiasticall cause that euen the statute giueth hir maiestie that is to say A supreme gouernement in all things and causes Doth not the bishop set downe this M. St hath he not specified euen the same wordes oftentimes already and doth not his particular specifications coÌ„teine as much here also Nâ—… say you he leaueth out the principall cause ecclesiasticall and most necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall Soft M. St. stay here or euer we demaund what this cause should be I demaunde only now why ye say supreme gouernour Ecclesiasticall is this your honestie in handling the statute doth the Quéene take vpon hir to be a supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall or doth the statute giue this title to hir maiestie A supreme gouernor Ecclesiasticall the statute saith A supreme gouernor in all Ecclesiastical causes â–ª And is there no differeÌ„ce betwene an ecclesiastical gouernor a gouernor in eccles causes but you vse this your false captious speach to make that people beleue the slaÌ„der that ye raise on hir Maiesty as though she toke vpon hir to bean ecclesiasticall person to be a B. and a minister of the worde sacraments and by hir chiefe gouernmeÌ„t ouer bishops chalenged to be a chief or head bishop of Bishops like vnto your Pope And so hauing raised vp this slauÌ„der on the Quenes maiestie the statute ye chalenge the Bishop for omitting a principall ecclesiastical cause But what is that you aske forsooth iudgement say you determining and approuing of doctrine which is true and good and which is otherwise Here againe M. Stapl. ye speake as captiously for if by this iudgement ye meane an authoritie aboue the doctrine of Gods worde as all your side maintaineth that the word of God receyueth his authoritie of the Churches iudgement â–ª which Church ye call the Priestes and is authenticall bicause they haue ratified it so to be otherwise it were not true nor good then in déede as the Bishop hath set downe no such iudgement determining or approuing of doctrine neyther so coulde he haue done for the Quéenes Maiestie â—…keth no such supreme gouernement vpon hir nor such supreme gouernement is due to any other than to God alone who hath by Iesus Christ his sonne already fully determined in his holy worde what doctrine is good and true â–ª And what doctrine soeuer is besides that is neyther true nor good whosoeuer take vpon him to iudge determine and approue the same be it eyther your Pope or your Church neuer so much yea were it an angell from heauen â—…e must 〈◊〉 helde accursed But if ye meane by iudging determining and approuing of doctrine such authority as only acknowledgeth giueth testimonie admitteth alloweth setteth forth and strengthneth the doctrine of Christes onely worde not aâ—… ruler ouer it but as seruant vnto it and the reiecting or abolishing of all other doctrine against or besides that wordâ—… then hath the bishop not left out this ecclesiasticall cause in the statute though not iudging in that maner that the ecclesiasticall gouernour Bishop or Minister doth in his sermons or debating thereon but for so much as belongeth to a supreme gouernour And so sayth the bishop The gouernment that the Queenes Maiestie most iustly taketh on hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering directing and ayding the eccl. state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion buitie and quietnesse of Christes Church visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errours superstitions heresies schisâ—…es abuses offences contempts and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer Marke these words a little better M. Stap. and I trust you shall sée it was you that ouershot your selfe and lefte out good attention béeing caried away in a cocke brayne â—…ume with too hastie a preiudice And that the bishop left out héere no part of such iudgement determination and approuing of doctrine which is true and good which is otherwise as belongeth to suche a supreme gouernour as groundeth himselfe on Gods iudgement â–ª determining and approbation What do ye thinke is true religion no good doctrine with you If it be the bishop hath not omitted it Can he care and prouide for it direct and set it foorth without iudgement without the determining of it to be good and true without the approbation of it On the other side are errours and heresies no false nor naughtie doctrine with you if they be then the bishop named them and thinke ye the visiting reforming restrayning amending and correcting can be without a iudgement and determination agaynst them Then sithe he in playne spéeche ascribeth all this to the Prince which fully answereth all this that ye call for if as I sayd ye vnderstande this iudgement determining and approuing a right ye shewe what a very continuall wrangler ye be where no cause at all is giuen But incontinent ye declare what ye meane by this iudgement of doctrine For what say you is more necessarie in the Churche than that the supreme gouernour therof shoulde haue power in all doubtes and controuersies to decide the truthe and
the church in euery cause wherof it is not otherwise disposed in the new testament is to be holden of the law of nations or of lawe ciuil To this I answer First this in part is true but in part so false that himself confutes himself making exceptioÌ„ of diuers things in the ciuill power that sproong immediatly froÌ„ God neither were those things as he falsly saithe Circa res terrenas about earthly matters but about ecclesiasticall matters in the law of Moyses And although their ceremonial causes and iudicials pertayning to ecclesiasticall matters in the ciuil power be taken away with the ceremoniall and indiciall lawe of the Iewes yet the ciuil power hath like authoritie in the like causes ecclesiastical of the new testameÌ„t as is shewed out of S. Aug. against M. St. the Donatistes Secondly where he sayeth all the ciuil power nowe of christian kings and Emperors is all of the law of nations or ciuil except in cases otherwise disposed in the new testament I answer this may well be graunted and yet the ciuil power hath authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons in causes ecclesiastical for so not only in the old testament but also in the newe Testament it is playnly disposed Thirdly to this diuision of the original of both these estates that the ecclesiastical is from God immediatly the ciuil by other meanes I answere this distinction faileth both by his own tale saying Ciuilis à deo plerunque est per media quaedam the ciuil power is oftentimes from God by certain meanes If it be oftentimes by certaine meanes then it is not alwayes and but accidentall not of the nature of the estate for so it is also immediatly from God. And the like accident falleth out likewise of the ecclesiastical estate that although the power be immediatly from God yet many causes in it called Ecclesiastical be also Per media quadam humani ingenij interposita by certain meanes of mans wit put betwene For this cause sayth M. sand the ciuil power among the heathen that know not god is found to be the same that is extant with faithful kings although Christ wold not haue such power in the ministers of his kingdom for he said the Princes of the nations rule ouer them and they that are iuniors exercise power ouer them so shall it not be among you I answere first Maister Saunders this is a like slander to M. Stapletons fo 29. a. b. The ciuil power is not found to be the same in heathen Princes that knowe not God and in Christian Princes that know God there is a very great difference betwene these so different estates wherin the one acknowledgeth all his power to be of God and hath it described and limited by Gods word the other takes it al for hu main naturall not so much as knowing God by your own confession from whome the originall of it springeth Secondly to that you saye suche power is debarred by Christe from his ministers If yée meane by suche power suche power as is among the Heathen suche is not onely debarred from them but from christian Princes too If ye meane suche power as Christian Princes haue is debarred from the ministers of Christ then say ye true But howe then dothe youre Pope chalenge and vsurpe bothe suche and the same also Yea your selfe afterwarde reason moste earnestly thoroughout all the fourth chapter following that the ministers of Christe may haue it Wherin ye speak cleane contrary both to Christ and to your self Thirdly I note this eyther youre grosse ignoraunce or your impudent falshood in altering the wordes of Christe He sayth not they that are iuniors or yongers the Texte is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they that are great whiche are cleane contrarie If M. Stapleton were your aduersarie he would rattle ye vp Master Saunders for so foule a scape Nowe to fortifie a difference betwéene the Ecclesiastical power and the Ciuill he vrgeth that the spiritual kingdom of Christ is in this worlde but not of this worlde as for the earthly kingdome is bothe in and of this world but the ecclesiasticall power is the spirituall kingdome of Christ therfore there is a difference but the spirituall kingdom of Christ excelleth all worldlyâ—… kingdomes therfore they are stark fooles that in any ecclesiasticall thing to be administred preferre the earthly kings before the pastors of the Churche I answere all these conclusions are impertinent If there be any follie it is to striue for that that is not in controuersie We graunt a difference betwixt both powers and kingdomes althoughe a question is to be moued what he meaneth here by ecclesiasticall power If he take it as the Papistes do we denie that ecclesiasticall power to be the spiritual kingdome of Christ. For their ecclesiasticall power is ouermuch not in the worlde but of the worlde also If he meane by ecclesiasticall power the spirituall kingdome of Christ as he in his word hath ordeyned the fame although there be a difference betwene the power in the kingdom and the kingdome in the which the power is yet we graunt this gladly that no wise man will preferre the earthly kings in any spiritual thing to be administred before the pastors of the churche But this is nothing againste the earthly kings preferment ouer the spirituall pastor to ouersée him rightly and spiritually to administer his spirituall things in the ministration whereof all earthly kings oughte to giue place vnto him which we did neuer denie And sith there is no comparison betwene Christ the sonne of God who is also God himself and a creature of the law natural or ciuill neither is there any comparison betwixt the power ecclesiastical which is wholly giue vnto vs by only Christ the mediator the power royall which either altogether or almost altogether is not ordeined of God but by the lawe of nations or ciuill for although God hath reuealed froÌ„ heauen that belongeth to the power royall if notwithstandyng that pertained not to eternall saluation which is hid in Christ but to contein peace among men that is to be reckned to be reuealed no otherwise than to be a certain declaration which he had grafted in vs by Nature or else euen necessitie ought to haue wroong out of vs or profite according to the seedes of nature ought to haue brought to light I answere first we graunt that the ecclesiastical power not as the Papists stretche it but as it is giuen vnto vs by only Christ the mediator is farre superior without all comparison than the royal power of Princes Howbeit this hindreth not but as the ministers are mediators thereof to vs the royall power of Princes hath againe an other superior gouernment to ouersée that there be no other ecclesiasticall power exercised by the mediation of the Minister than Christ the only mediator hath ordeyned And to remoue all popish â—…oysting in giuing vs quid pro quo whiche when
or else woulde haue the royall that is to say the ciuill power to be superiour to the ecclesiasticall Howe madly for so wise a man ye haue proued these differences let wise men iudge M. Saunders and howe badly if not madly ye make your conclusions agaynst vs let wise men also iudge For we neither confounde these powers nor giue bothe to the Prince nor make the Ciuill power simply superiour to the ecclesiastical power although we giue the prince a superiour power in respect of the ouerséeing that the eccl. power whiche in the administration therof is higher although not in the direction and maynteining therof be not abused by the ecclesiasticall person Nowe M. Saunders hauing sayde thus muche of these three differeÌ„ces setteth downe a long sentence out of Chrisostome wherein he extolleth the Priestly power aboue the Kinges power which notwithstanding is nothing agaynst this superioritie that we attribute to Princes although the office and administration of the ecclesiasticall power be graunted to be neuer so muche superiour and this is answered vnto sufficiently already in M. St. Yet bicause we haue hereafter to deale at large with M. Stapleton on the same sentence of Chrysostome I referre it to the proper and more fitter consideration of it And thus much hath M. Sanders for these thrée differences which he sayth he speaketh agaynst thrée errours The first errour is of them that say the royall power in a christian Prince is higher than any ecclesiasticall power which opinion the Englishe Protestantes defende The seconde errour is of them that extende the power royall to certayne causes ecclesiasticall to be knowne and iudged by the kings law To conclude the thirde is of them that thinke a christian Prince at the least in all ciuill businesse and in his owne realme alwayes and without all exception to be greater thaÌ„ any ecclesiastical Magistrate nor that for any sin that he shall commit in the Church of God he can be remoued from the administration of the kingdome I answere neither these conclusions are sufficiently proued on these foresayd proues hitherto nor some of them at all before mentioned As the deposing of the Prince which is another question and héere as madly thrust in as maliciously and trayterously ment Neither any of these conclusions touche the English Protestants for they defend none suche as you haue héere set downe Name the parties and their assertions Else in steade of M. Saunders ye deserue to be rather called M. Slaunders The seconde Chapter The argument vvherof is this No Christian king in his kingdome is the supreme gouernour in ecclesiasticall causes immediatly vnder Christ. IN this Chapter as commonly else where M. Saunders rhethorically dothe hide his methode howbeit for perspicuitie sake I will deuide this Chapter into three partes â–ª The first is his arguments why he thinketh the Prince can not be this gouernour The seconde is the reasons why he thinketh vs heerein deceyued The thirde is the meâ—…nes to dissuade vs from the acknowledging of it by the euent and euill successe that hath ensued thereon And first for the first parte his argumentes are of two sortes the one à definitione from the definition of a gouernour the other à dignitate from the greater dignitie of Priesthood bring the argument by comparing the dignitie of bothe these estates from the olde testament to the Newe His first argument beginneth thus He that may be called a supreme head or chief gouernour hath of necessitie the power of doing all those things which can be wrought by the inferiours to the magistrates of that congregatioÌ„ by their office or by any charge beloÌ„ging properly to the same coÌ„gregation This shal be made playner by putting of example He that iâ—… chieftayne in an armie hath not only the Imperial power ouer al Tribunes and Centurions but besides may lawfully chaleÌ„ge to himself to occupie the Tribunes place â–ª or to be captayne ouer an hundreth if at any tyme he shall thinke it meete for him selfe to do it He that can gouerne a whole common weale can if he will knowe of euery meane man and not onely sustayne the turne and fulfill the offices of the Prince of them all but also of his Maior or of the inferiour Iudges He that is a Bishoppe hathe power of baptising and of shutting the Churche dores and of distributing the Churches treasure although those thinges are wonte to be done of the inferiour ministers To this definition and these examples I answere the definition is false the examples are insufficient Fyrste for the definitioÌ„ it is not true of euery supreme gouernour that he can or oughte to worke and execute all those things and duties that euery one of his inferiours can or ought to worke and execute For the gouernment of thinges is one thing and the execution of thinges gouerned is another thing Yea these two are relatiua and can not be confounded the one with the other although they haue respecte the one to the other for so the gouernour shoulde become the person gouerned Secondly these thrée examples are insufficient For although we admitte these thrée yet we may obiecte a great many moe examples in which this difinition holdes not Set aside the doing of all dyle and vnséemely offices for a farre more meane estate than a Prince to doe of which he hath neither knowledge nor it were tollerable he should â—…o them I pray ye M. sand howe could a king ruling in his own realme be his own ligire Embassadour in another realme Wil ye say he might make a deputie at home and be Embassadour to his deputie abroade and so the deputie to the king shall be the king and the king the deputie to the king that is the kings deputie But perchaunce ye will admitte this absurditie bicause ye will not go from your worde and say well the king may be so and he wil. Here what if one should do with you as I heard once M. Feckenham tel the tale of a gentlemaÌ„ that defended mustard was good with all meate One sayd nay it was nought with this meate another with that but looke what any coulde recken vp he still affirmed his saying that mustard was good with euery meate were it neuer so vnsauery a sauce therto Nowe when euery man had reckoned what he liste at length quoth his owne man that wayted on him I pray you master and is a messe oâ—… mustard good with a messe of milke Ha quoth his master â–ª thou haste marde all thou shouldest haue heldae thy peace This was master Feckenhams tale Nowe if master Feckenham that tolde this tale shoulde deale thus with you M. Sanders that as lustily affirme the king may lawfully do any thing that any of his subiectes may lawfully dâ—… as the Gentleman sayd mustard was good with al meate â–ª If M. Feckenham would say sir and can the king do all that euen his owne
doo Will ye haue a woman weare a mans apparell it is flat forbidden by Gods worde Will ye haue a Quéene fight hir self in a battaile and breake a speare as a king may do In déed some mannish women as the Quéene of Amazons Thomyris Semiramis and other haue so doone but it is not sitting And by your owne reason the imbecillitie of theyr kynde doth cléere them And a number of such other things may be reckoned vp Shall we now saye the Quéene is not supreme gouernour ouer these persons and causes bicause hir selfe can not doe them Likewyse for a king that is a chylde you know he can not fight in battell himselfe neyther can he himselfe sit in iudgement and debate rights and wrongs in ciuil doubtes manie mo things can he himselfe not doe euen bicause as ye say he hath a defect in iudgemeÌ„t Hath he therfore in these ciuill and temporall thyngs no supreme gouernment Thus ye sée still your examples faile yea they make cleane agaynst you for as a supreme gouernor may wel be a supreme gouernor in those things that he himself can not do so a christeÌ„ princes supreme gouernmeÌ„t ouer al ecclesiastical persons in al ecclesiastical causes is nowhit hindred although the prince he or she yong or old can not do the functions ecclesiastical nor be an ecclesiast person The second argument is that he so often and al the Papists vse of the excellencie of the minister in his ministration aboue the Prince To this he citeth the saying of Saint Paule Let men â—…o esteeme vs as ministers of Christ and dispensers of his mysteries To whiche ministerie kings are not called And here is againe alledged the storie of â—…ziae that presumed to offer incense and was punished with â—…eaprie The effect of all the argument he knitteth vp thus Siergo minister c. If therfore the minister of the Church of Christ exercise a greater and more diuine ministerie than the king or any other prince howe is the king the Supreme heade of that churche wherein he seeth certaine ministers greater than himselfe I answere this is a fallation secundum quid ad simpliciter We graunt in the respect of his ministerie the minister is aboue all Princes But this pertayneth to the actions and function of the minister and not to the ouersight and direction that all those actions and functions be orderly done Nowe this béeing but a common argument Master Saunders vrgeth it further by comparison of eyther estate the Prince and the Priest from the olde Testament to the newe saying Ac nimirum illud c. And thys namely I seeme to take by my right the authoritie of any Christian king in his christian kingdom is not greater than was in tymes paste the authoritie of any Iewishe kyng among the people of the Iewes for if the Citie of God to whyche Chryste of his owne name hathe giuen a newe name maye verily bee the more woorthie but can not be inferiour to the Churche of the Iewes â–ª Surely then it followeth that a christian king ouer his christian kingdome can not obtaine more power than a kyng of the Hebrue nation did obteyne among the Hebrâ—…wes For howe muche the more any Common weale is subiecte too their earthly Kyng the authoritie of that common weaâ—…e is so muche the lesse But the authoritie of the Churche of Christe is not lesse than the authoritie of the Synagoge of the Iewes bycause in the churche of Christe those thinges were fulfilled to the verie image of the things whiche in the Synagoge of the Iewes were scarce figured by the naked shadowes As the truthe in deede in greater than the image so againe the image is greater than the shadowe but this is euident that the authoritie in times past of the only king is lesser than the authoritie of his christian kingdome or of hys Bishops But if it be so then the christian king which is both lesse than the church and the bishops of his kingdom cannot be immediatly vnder Christ the head of the churche This argument is intricate and full of many inuersed cringle crangles to shewe a face of déepe and subtill knowledge beyonde the simple mans capacitie whyche kynd of reasonyng is more suspicious than to edifying The effecte of the argument standeth all on this The greater authoritie is giuen to a christian king the lesser haue the Priestes and the churche But the priestes and the churche haue not lesse authoritie but aboue a christian king Ergo the king hath not supreme authoritie To the Maior that the greater authoritie is giuen to a christian king the lesser haue the priests and the churche he sayeth nothing And yet some what is to be sayde thereto it is not so cléere as he makes it For sith eyther of these thrée haue their authorities in dyuers considerations the Priests authoritie may be greater than the kings authoritie in one respecte that is of his diuine actions and ministerie and yet in an other of the gouernement and publike direction the kinges authoritie is greater than his And so althoughe the Churches authoritie in one respecte be greater than bothe the Kings and the Priestes as they are bothe but membres and children of the Churche yet in regarde that the one is a Pastour and the other a gouernour and both of them Fathers and guyders as it were vnto the church their authorities againe are greater than the Churches And this also sheweth the falshood of the Minor that the Priestes and the Churche haue not lesse authoritie but are aboue the prince Which is not true but in suche respectes as nothing hinder the supreme gouernement that we giue the prince But Maister Saunders to confirme this to bée simply true the prince to be inferior to the Priests and people will proue it by his comparison of the state of the olde and newe Testament And first he will haue the state of the olde Testament in the Churches gouernement to be a figure of the newe But in the estate of the old Testament the Prince was vnder the priest and the people Ergo it must be so in the new To the maior we graunte him the gouernment of the Church in the old testament to be a figure of the churches gouernment in the new testameÌ„t And remember this well that here M. Saunders buyldes vpon For if he himselfe shal be found to swarue from it afterwarde when he findeth it shall make agaynst hym then let him blame himselfe and let vs note bothe inconstancie and cantradiction in him who playeth the snayle puttyng in and out his hornes and will say and eate his worde as he thinketh best to his aduantage And this is the fashions of them all in the examples of the old testament as we haue séene the practise of M. Feckenham M. Stapleton which is a subtile false and vnstedfast kind of dealing But go to we denie the minor that in the state of the
had not deliuered vs from it and yet sée if these Papistes that can so narrowly spie and proll at euery note in king Henry and kings Edwards dayes can in Quéene Maries dayes espie anye one of these great beames that were such apparante tokens of gods wrath that all men sawe and felt what euents succeeded the refusall of this title and the yéelding it to the Pope nerehand the cleane subuersion of this Realme if we may iudge by sequels Now after Quéene Marie he comes to the Quéenes Maiestie that now God be praised most prosperously raigneth ouer vs. But vvhen very many giuen to heresies vvere offended at this notable modestie of the Queene neither vvould they yet vnderstande his Counsell in gouerning his Churche God brought to passe that Marie of happie memorie being dead the kingdome of England should deuolue to such a vvoman as novve vvriteth hir selfe The supreme gouernesse in all matters and causes asvvell ecclesiasticall as secular That yet so at the length by the successe it selfe men of hard harte and obstinate necke mighte marke hovv euill king Henry tooke this office vpon him the vvhiche of his heire and successour could not duely and orderly be fulfilled For to whom it is not permitted to teach vvhich is the most necessarie office of an ecclesiasticall Head hovv shal she performe those greater offices that are occupied in the chastisement and correction of them that ought to teache the people or shall she vvhich is vnvvorthie that she should hir selfe teache publiquely in the lovvest degree moderate and reprehend vvith lavvful authoritie other publique teachers in the highest degree or if she can not lavvfully reprehend them shall she yet be lavvfully supreme gouernesse of the Church I omit here the things that in these yeares vvhich are last passed haue bene I knovv not hovv vncomely done and preached in Englande vnder such supreme heads of the Church I spare the dignitie of theÌ„ that gouerne Another time if God vvill I vvill handle them particularly hovve greatly both from the lavve of God and from the sentence of the auncient Churche and from righte reason that state of a common vveale is farre in vvhiche any king arrogateth to himselfe the office and name of the supreme head of the Church Is your part so false and weake of proues Maister Saunders that it can win no credite but by discrediting of ours with sclaunders and yet we woulde pardon this in you ascribing it either to some passion of choler against your aduersaries or to blinde affection of your selues that ye call verie manie of vs giuen to heresies hard harted and obstinate necked which are termes fitter to muster in M. Stapletons coÌ„mon places than to stuffe vp M. doctor Saunders volumes howe they redownde vpon your selues let other iudge â–ª that will reade and view of both But if we forgiue you this for our parts shal we stil suffer you to raile vpoÌ„ sclander the Lordes annoynted saying she arrogateth to hir selfe the office and name of the supreme Head of the Church speaking at randon withoute limitation of the Churche as the Pope doth arrogate to himselfe and taketh on hir to be an ecclesiasticall head and publique teacher of other that should teach hir these are too too infamous sclauÌ„ders of hir Maiestie that claimeth no such title nor attempteth any such thing What supreme gouernement is ascribed to hir highnesse we haue tolde you a thousand times but I sée ye will not vnderstand it bicause ye would of set purpose sclander it But to knit vp your argument of the euent and sequele of the Quéenes Maiesties raigne ye say many things haue bin done and preached in England ye cannot tell hovv vnsemely â—… thinke euen the same M. Saunders ye can not tell howe â—…ndede But howe vnseemely a thing is this for one of your â—…rofession to chalenge ye cannot tell what nor howe ye set owne nothing but vnder a pretence of sparing vs to bréede â—…et a furder sclaunderous suspition ye threat vs that ye will â—…serue theÌ„ til a furder leisure that is to say ad Kalendas graecas til â—…e shall first know them and then be able to proue them in the meane seasoÌ„ ye take the wisest way to say such ther are but what they are ye cannot now tell ye wil learne theÌ„ out and tell vs another time but tell the worste ye canne ye shal neuer be able to tell of any fals doctrine preached and by the Prince approued to be preached nor of anye wicked facte allowed by publike authoritie to be done No Maister Saunders in all the Quéenes Maiesties raigne ye can neuer be able to proue any suche things but in the raigne of your Popes we can proue many such things as whordome committed and maintained murder done and maintained Idolatry vsed and maintained and infinite errors preached and maintained by publique authoritie among the Papists As for the Quéenes maiesties raigne that now is if the euent and sequele may make an argument God hath so blessed it maugre all your spites and practises that no Realme christian hath florished like nor Englande more at anye tyme The Lord be praised for it and for his mercie sake long continue it that hath giuen so goodly a token of his well liking hir Maiesties supreme gouernment The thirde Chapter The argument is that Princes can not iudge nor define in causes Ecclesiasticall OF those errors that are about the povver of kings and magistrats the secoÌ„d error is of theÌ„ that thinke kings are not in dede the chief heads of the Churches in vvhich they raigne but in certaine causes Ecclesiastiall to bee euen as vvorthie members as Bishops â–ª for although in one certaine thing as in the office of teaching they preferre Bishops before kings yet partly in another Ecclesiasticall matter as in deposing a Byshop from his seat or in moderating any synode they preferre kings before Bishops partly they vvill haue it free for kings that almoste in euery ecclesiasticall matter they may knowe and decerne as Iudges Of the confutation of whiche errour this is the reason that I should shewe in euery cause of the ecclesiastical lawe that is to be knowne and iudged Kinges to be so muche in the place of priuate men that this trial can not of the ecclesiasticall Iudges be committed vnto them Although I denie not but that of some facte that perteyneth to the eccl. lawe the knowledge may be committed to Kinges and Magistrates But before the eccl. cause be known the king may orderly intermeddle his authoritie to that ende that a quiet place may be graunted where the Bishops should iudge And also that the Bishops may be called at a certayne day to that place And that in the meane season whyle the ecclesiasticall cause is knowne the publique peace yea euen in the assembly of Priestes may be conserued To conclude after the cause knowne and iudged of the Pristes the king either by the sworde that he
lay in them to haue a king or no and not rather in these kings that had subdued them who althoughe they appointed or suffered petit rulers ouer them yet woulde they not suffer them to haue a king But whyle they had kings we reason of those kinges authoritie But what reason haue you else for this is a very slender one But this say you in this kinde I will make my principall reason that Christ when he was in this worlde and fulfilled the whole law and all righteousnesse yet notwithstanding he would in thinges ecclesiasticall onely that the Priest and by no meanes that the earthly king should gouerne This were a principall reason in déede if you could proue this M. Saunders but as yet you haue not proued it and I thinke it will be harder than you wéene for you to doe Now to proue it you reason thus For he openly refused to administer an earthly kingdome and therfore fled when he sawe the people go about to make him a king And he denied that he was ordeyned to be a deuider betweene the brethren But if so be that after the perfecte reason and minde of Moses lawe it had at least beene comely either the Churche or the Bishop to be gouerned of an earthly King Christ would not haue left that thing vnfulfilled For it was no harde matter for him to haue administred a earthly kingdome for some very little time the which when he did not neither yet omitted he any thing that can iustly be desired to the perfect gouernement of his Churche It hath neuer beene at any time or yet is of any perfection that an earthly king shoulde arrogate to him selfe any power in ecclesiasticall matters besides this that with his sworde he shoulde defende and fight for that whiche is defined by the Prieste â–ª sentences And is this necessarie in the Churche M. Saunders that the Prince may do thus much with his sworde But I pray you where dyd Christ thus muche as to fight for the Priests decrees with a sworde If your reason be good you muste shewe this or else why reason you from the factes of Christe whyle he was héere on earth if you can shewe as you promised that Christe woulde that the Priest and by no meanes the prince shuld gouerne in eccl. matters this were to the purpose But this you shew not but would windelace it in with a bought that if Christ would haue had Princes gouerne in ecclesiasticall matters he woulde haue bene a Prince him selfe but he would neuer be a Prince and yet if he had would he might therefore he woulde not haue Princes meddle in matters of his Church sithe he woulde not meâ—…le in matters pertayning to their gouernement If this were a good reason I might reuerse it thus that sithe be medled in their matters when he had tribute to be paide to Cesar when he bad his Disciples not feare them that kill the body when he called Herode Foxe when he tolde Pilate he had no power but that was giuen him from aboue therefore they agayne might meddle in his matters bicause he medled in theirs This is as good a reason as yours But ye say Christ tooke not a kingdome vpon him nor woulde deuide lands yet he tooke vpon him all things necessarie for his Churches gouernment what shoulde you conclude hereon Ergo the Princes gouernment is not necessarie in Church causes is this the direct coÌ„clusion Nay M. Saund. either the coÌ„clusion takes away the Princes gouernmeÌ„t froÌ„ the Church of Christ or else which it doth in déed it hitteth your Pope if you marke it well who pretending to follow Christ taketh an earthly kingdome vpon him and deuideth landes which Christ refused to do The argument is thus Christ did al that was necessary but Christ did not take vpoÌ„ him a kingdome Ergo he thought it not necessary This is flat agaynst the Pope but nothing agaynst christian Princes The coÌ„clusioÌ„ is good for it was not necessary for Christ in his person yet for christian Princes it might wel be necessarie It is necessarie for christian Princes as your selfe coÌ„fesse to vse the teÌ„poral sword in the churches defence and yet Christ him selfe did neuer vse it Except you wil say he vsed it after a sort when with a materiall whip outwarde violeÌ„ce he draue the byers sellers out of the temple But then I replie that herein he exercised for the while eueÌ„ the office of a Magistrate shewed not onely his owne zeale power of his kingdome but also a paterne to al Magistrates Princes with what zeale power they shâ—…ld exercise their authoritie in reforming abuses in the church of god Although Christ him self did not personally handle the sworde as they personally may do Neither yet did Christ all those thinges that his ministers did ought to do It is necessarie for the ministers to baptise yet Christ him selfe that we read of did neuer baptise any he could haue don it if he had thought it necessarie What shal we say with M. Sand he did al that was necessary but he did not baptise Ergo to baptise is not necessarie This therefore is a wrong principle that Christe must haue done euery thing personally him selfe that is necessarie to be done in his Church True it is that if Christe neither did it nor taught it to be done by him self nor by his Apostles but would the contrarie as M. Sand sayth then the argument were good so it confuteth a nuÌ„ber of Popish traditions that were neither done nor taught by Christ nor his Apostles but rather that contrary But as for this gouernment of Princes as M. Sanders him selfe confesseth was practised in the olde lawe whiche lawe gaue the Prince his charge therin And Christ testiâ—…eth that he came not to breake the lawe but to fulfill it And althoughe he became not a Prince him self which might haue seemed to haue made â—…or the Popes purpose but rather condemneth it in his ministers yet both he him self his Apostles obeyed the Prince then ruling which now the Pope denieth statly to do But ye say Christ his Apostles obeyed them not in eccl. matters Neither was it reason M. San. both bicause Christ him selfe was the law maker his Apostles were the first teachers of it Princes then were Infidels But to reason now from the like state in the princes that now are christiaÌ„â—… to giue in all things like authoritie to Bishops paâ—…ors with Christ and his Apostles is as farre from reason on the other side Neither yet do we debarre from Bishops and Pastors that superioritie ouer Princes that is giuen by Christe and his Apostles to them and their successours of the administration of spirituall and ecclesiastical things neither do we as M. Saunders sayth giue the gouernement of the Churche of Christe to an earthly Prince For bothe the Prince is Christian and not
notvvithstanding aftervvarde he become an Apostata or an Heretike good reason requireth that he shoulde be remoued from the administration of a kingdome among the Catholike people They saye the Deuill M. Saunders if we giue him an inche will take an ell and so playe you You demaunde one thing and woulde take a number yea and snatch at all If you were not impudent you would not still encroch Firste you desired that you might propounde one thing of greate equitie and you woulde make all plaine that Princes mighte be deposed This one thing is graunted Then you desire a seconde thing for this second clap downe two togither That the same lavve shoulde be also for the Catholikes that vvas for the Christians This also is graunted to the whiche you adde that he that is no Catholike is no liuely member of the Church of Christ. And although this in the true sense of Catholike is likewise granted yet in your sense of a Catholike it is starke false and denyed Then you adde your figure of 3. and say moreouer this must be added that a Christian king being become an Apostata or an heretike shoulde be deposed And this you will haue graunted you also and al vnder the name of one thing and this that you adde laste of all is in déede the thing it selfe that you should proue But you worke a wise waye first demaunde it maye be grauÌ„ted you and then promise that you wil proue it What M. Sanders haue you gone to Rome to learne that knacke that the Proctour taught his client in the chancellors court who when a Maiden in sute of contract came to him for couÌ„sell he being before hande féed on the otherpartis graunte quoth be to her thou madest him such a promisse but aske him who is his witnesse Nowe when the simple Mayden was thus enstructed I graunt quothe she to the Iudge I made him such a promisse but who is his witnesse And eueÌ„ thus woulde you dodge vs M. Saunders The question is whether a Prince erring in fayth shoulde be deposed We denie it You will proue it but on this condition that we wil graunt you this that he should be deposed and then you will proue it that he should be deposed But and if we will graunt you this you may easily proue it or rather you néed not proue it at all for we do proue it for you Either Maister Saunders you thinke â–ª great follie in vs or this is greate follie in you to make such propositions to proue the matter that are the matter it selfe This is beyonde the fallation called petitio principij it is petitio totius the request not of a principle but of altogither There is no equitie at all in these proues for all the great equitie that you promised Not that the Apostacie or heresie of the king shoulde be bolstered or allowed but earnestly improued and rebuked if it be Apostacie and heresie indéede and not as you call heresie and Apostacie the forsaking of your heresies and receiuing the Gospell of Christe But in this your case of Apostacie howe euer the Prince be worthie to be deposed the deposition lyeth not in any subiect or any foreyne but in God that placed that Prince and in suche meanes as he séeth good to chastice suche Apostataes withall eyther of the whole bodie of the Realme or otherwise but those are extraordinarie cases there can be no ordinarie rule of all Princes deposition as you woulde here haue graunted excepte the state of the Princes be thereafter as it is in some Countries of which sort ours is not And therefore to coyne such rules for vs although our Prince God be praysed be not in this case of heresie and Apostacie saue in your malicious and erroneous conceyte is euen the Trumpet and warning piece to your trayterous confederates to pull downe the Prince and sette vp all Rebellion And a means to kéepe all Princes at the becke of the Priestes for feare they charge them with Apostacie and heresie and so straight wayes depose them But what reason haue you for this hampering of them For say you a faithfull Prince and a godly is a matter of such momeÌ„t that neither an vnfaithful should be placed ouer the faithfull neither an Apostata shoulde remaine the Prince of the faithfull What ought to be how it ought to be brought about to be are two things M. Saunders â–ª A Prince ought to be faithfull and Godly and so to be is as you say a matter of great moment Neither ought an vnfaithfull Prince to be voluntarily placed of the faithfull ouer theÌ„ Neither ought a Prince to be a renegate neither ought such a renegate Prince in the demerite of his facte to remaine a Prince ouer the faithfull But howesoeuer these things ought or ought not to be in him that the Byshops ought depose him that God hath set vp that the faithfull people ought to renounce their allegeance and rebell againste him that God hath placed ouer them they haue orderly sworne their homage vnto him I think M. sand you can not proue that these things ought to be Neither are these cases alike that you â—…umble togither of an vnfaithful man not to be chosen Prince and of a faithful man being chosen Prince by the faithful bicause he becoÌ„mes vnfaithful â–ª not to be obeyed For in the one case the faithful are free froÌ„ the vnfaithful if they are bound it is not to him but rather to kéepe them fre from him In the other case the faithfull haue bounde themselues before hande to the king that was faithfull who afterwarde becommeth vnfaithfull Whiche bonde if it were conditionall and the Prince of his own voluntarie so bounde expressely to them and they interchangeablie bound of their voluntaries expresly to renounce him becomming vnfaithfull Then I thinke they might so it were with one consent of those that chose him refuse him with better reason But where as it is commonly the Prince being a faithfull hath his claime by some kinde of right whome the people electe without such indenting on good hope of continuance in his faithfulnesse or rather being moued with his right yelde â–ª him obedience and binde themselues by othe to become his subiectes there althoughe their soules and consciences be still free to God in religion yet are their bodies their goods yea and their consciences to in respect of his estate and their duties so firmely bounde to remaine loyall and faithfull to the Princes authoritie that though he become vnfaithfull in the faith of his religion yet may not they become vnfaithfull in the faythe of their allegeance The Fable of Esopes â—…orse when he straue with the Hart can tell you that there was a difference in the horsses estate before he gaue the maÌ„ an enterest to ride vpon him and after that the man had bridled and sadled him and was set on his
M. sand And now as though he had brought an inuincible proofe he procéedeth saying But if he must needs be deposed at least for heresie hovv shall that controuersie be iudged without the knowledge of the doctors of the Church who only of their office haue the ordinarie lawful power to loke to the flocke in the whiche the holy Ghost hath placed theÌ„ to guide the Church of God. But the pastors doctors of the church could not be Iudges of any king except the king in that thing were lesse inferior to theÌ„ For neither the equal hath power ouer the equal neither the inferior ouer the superior VVorthily therfore we affirme that al christiaÌ„ kings in those things that appertaine to matters of faith are so vnder bishops priests â–ª that when offending obstinately against the christiaÌ„ religion â–ª they shall perseuer after one two rebukings bothe they maye and they ought for that cause to be by the Byshops sentence deposed from the gouernement that they holde ouer the Christians You conclude ful worthily M. San. your argument is this if the Prince must needes be deposed he must be deposed by the Bishops priestes This reason hangeth all on this presupposall that he hath so fully proued this that the Prince nowe in all post hast must nedes be deposed â–ª And yet we haue hitherto heard no such proues that should enforce any suche necessitie but rather necessarie for the bishops priests or any other subiects behalfe to let him remaine still vndeposed for them although he were an heretike So that we may rather reuerse the argument If nedes he must not be deposed the must not the bishops priests attempt to depose him Howbeit ther is no necessitie in the coÌ„sequence that if he must nedes be deposed that for heresie that the bishops priests must depose hi. Yes saith M. SaÌ„ for how shal that coÌ„trouersie be iudged without theÌ„ what thogh that coÌ„trouersie could not be iudged without theÌ„ M. sand must they therefore be deposers of him froÌ„ his estate bicause they iudge of the doctrine he professeth must they iudge of his Diademe bicause they iudge of his religioÌ„ but what if they theÌ„selues haue corrupt iudgements therein trow you priests bishops haue not had so ere now yes eueÌ„ this sentence of s. Paule that here you cite for the Bishops and Priestes authoritie giueth a plaine warning of it I knowe saithe he that after my departure shall come among you rauening VVolues not sparing the flocke there shall rise vp men from among your selues speaking peruerse thinges to dravve Disciples after them But say you saint Paule saith they must looke to the flocke so much the more in vvhiche the holy ghost hath placed them to guide the church of God. True in déed they must so do But what if they be blind theÌ„selues how loke they to it then And did Christ neuer talke of blind guides you post off that to the Phariseis Iewish Bishops But if you were not more blind thaÌ„ they you would sée a great difference betwéene loking to the flocke guiding the Church of God by teaching true doctrine taking heede vnto and discerning of false doctrines and teachers preching the worde of God with learned iudgement and betwéene the clayming of authoritie to depose Kings and Princes froÌ„ their royal estates Whie say you if they be Iudges they are aboue them and neither equall nor inferior They may be equal and aboue them too in learned Iudgement and also in the dispensation of their misteries yet in publike authoritie far inferior And therfore your conclusion A secuÌ„dum quid ad simpliciter faileth that bicause they are inferior in one thing to Bishops they be in al thinges or in this thing inferior Yea say you they are so vnder Bishops and Priestes that when offending obstinately againste the Christian religion they shall perfeuer after one or two rebukings the Bishoppes may and ought to depose them from their gouernment ouer Christians This is a great inferiorship M. sand to be so much vnder them For by this rule if a Prince as coÌ„monly Popishe Princes doe shoulde kepe a Paramour â–ª a Popishe Byshop may depose him But they wil not be ouer hastie to reproue the Prince for that which they vse themselues neither couÌ„t they it an offence against christiaÌ„ religion yet in the christiaÌ„ religion iâ—… is forbidden so is against it especially to defend it mainteing it as the Papistes do But if he do wrong to any of his subiectes wil not amende his wrong after a B. hath once or twise giueÌ„ him warning of it then by this rule the B. maye straighte depose him And in déede so they haue done would do if the wrong touch them if their lands and goods were diminished then by by it is against the ChristiaÌ„ religion it is plaine heresie except by the seconde admonition it be restored with a recumbentibus the king must be in al the hast deposed there is no remedie nor further respit for not only the Bishops may but plat plaine they ought to doe it Is not here a kingdome brought to a goodly state But he wil say he meaneth by offences against the Christian religion matters of faith But what helpeth this for as wheÌ„ the Lion proclaimed that al horned beasts shuld auoyd out of the wood although the Foxes pricked eares were no horns neyther néeded he haue gone ye he wisely foresaw that this was but a drifte to picke a quarel therefore he hied him out of the wood For since al lay in the Lions interpretatioÌ„ what if the Lion had said his prick eares had bin horns or as sharp as hornes surely then the Fox had dronke for it And if the Byshops may haue the like authoritie to bid the Prince be packing out of his realme if he offend the christian religion what will it boote the Prince if the Bishops be disposed to picke a quarel against him to saye he offendeth not againste the Christian religion but rather defendeth the true religion of Christ against the corruptions of it and in déede so he doth but what auayleth eyther his excuse or the truth of the matter if the Bishops shall say it is heresie and against the christian faith the Bishops that so say shal be the Iudges whether it be so or no were not the king as good get him out of his kingdome at the first or else they will depose him set him out with a heaue ho But that Bishops may thus hamper Princes as they list where find we authoritie or example in the scripture yes saith M. Saunders For God which at the firste so seuered the heauenly kingdome from the earthly kingdome that he suffered the kings of the earth to come togither against the Lorde and againste his anoynted and thereby notably declared his power while by the
life for me he can not be my Disciple much more then must he hate his kingdome and be readie to leaue his kingdome and all the good in the vvorlde for Christe or else hee is no Christian. You say true M. Sanders he must forsake and hate al for Christes sake But that he must do this for your Byshoppes sakes when they will say it is expedient he should so do that I finde not in the words of Christe and yet muste you beware howe you expounde that saying For he is bound also to loue and to kéepe to the vttermost all these thinges in their kindes not to renounce nor hate theÌ„ except they hinder him from Christ whom he must prefer before al things But this loue to Christe in principall maye stande togither with these loues wel inough Neither is he any more bounde to resigne his kingdome than to resigne his vvife into the Priestes hands Nor if he abuse his kingdome the Prieste can no more turne him out of it than he can if he abuse his goods and his vvife turne him not of his dores and take his goodes and his vvife from him and kéepe hir himself or giue hir vnto an other This can not the Byshop do although the Prince and euerie man be bounde to lose al for Christes cause Yea the Byshop is bounde hereto as well as any other And God knowes how some of them kepe this bonde and yet wil not they léese one halfpennie for Christes sake howsoeuer they breake it But the kingdome is a â—…oule moate in their eye and therefore the King poore soule must lose all and they must take it from him But now to Master Saunders other arguments Moreouer the kingdomes of faithfull Princes whose people feare God are not altogether earthly or worldlye For in that part that they haue beleued in Christ they haue as it were lefte to be of this worlde and haue begonne to be members of the eternall kingdome for although the outwarde face of things which is founde in kingdomes meere secular be in a Christian kingdome yet sith the spirite of man is farre the more excellent parte of hym and the whole spirite acknowledgeth Christ his King and onely Lorde I see nothing why Christian kingdomes ought not rather to be Iudged spirituall according to their better part than earthly And this is the cause why nowe long since those which gouerned the people of God were wont to be annoynted of his Ministers no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priestes For euen the Kings them selues also are after a sort partakers of the spirituall Ministerie when they are annoynted not that they should do those things that are committed to the onely Priestes herevnto orderly consecrated but that those things which other Kings referre to a prophane and worldly ende these Kings should now remember that they oughte to directe to an holye ende For when they themselues are made spirituall it is fitte they should will that all their things should be counted as it were spirituall But nowe are spirituall things so vnder the Church of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body Syth therefore the people of Israell woulde needes desire a King to be giuen them Samuel by the commaundement of God toke a cruse of oyle and powred it vpon the heade of Saule and kissed him and sayd beholde God annoynteth thee to be the Prince ouer his inheritaunce VVhich to me seemeth to signifie euen as though it had bene sayde except the Lord annoynted thee to be the Prince thou couldest not rightly and orderly be the Prince ouer hys people whiche hee hathe chosen and reserued out of all the worlde to be as it were peculiar to hymselfe For in that that is gods no man can take power to him selfe without Gods permission But God anoynted Saul to be the Prince not by himselfe but by Samuel his minister wherfore whosoeuer ruleth ouer the Christian people which is no lesse acceptable to God than was the people of the Iewes hee besides the right which he receyueth of God by the consent of the people ought also to acknowledge his power to be of Christe by his Ministers if so be that he be suche an one that worshippeth the Fayth of Christe VVherevpon to thys day all Christian kingdomes are annoynted of some Christian Bishop or some other Minister of God referring therein their principalitie not onely to the people and so vnto God but that moreouer by the Priests of Christ they referre it vnto Christ whose Ministers they are For Pope Leo wrote elegantly vnto Leo the Emperour Thou oughtest to marke stedfastly the Kingly power not onely to bee giuen to thee to the gouernement of the worlde but to be giuen thee chiefly for the succour of the Churche that in suppressing naughtie attemptes thou shouldest bothe defende those things that are well decreed and restore the true peace to those things that are troubled If Maister Saunders woulde goe plainely to woorke and make his argumentes shorte and formall and woulde rather shewe his Logike than his Rethorike the truth or falsehoode woulde appéere the sooner the reader perhappes mighte be the lesse delyghted but withoute perhappes hee shoulde be lesse beguyled and the aunswere mighte bée the clearer and the shorter â—…ll this long argument in effect is this All spirituall things are so vnder the Church of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the prosite of the whole mysticall body All Christian Kings and kingdomes are spirituall things Ergo all Christian Kings and Kingdomes are so vnder the Church of Christ that she maye freely dispose and decree of them to the prosite of the whole mysticall body And firste Maister Saunders trauels in the Minor. To proue Christian Kyngs and Kyngdomes spirituall that bycause the better parte of them is spirituall therefore hée seeth nothyng why they oughte not to bee rather iudged spirituall Yea Kings were woâ—…e to bee annoynted no otherwyse than Prophetes and Priestes not to doe theyr actions but to referre all theyr affayres to holy and spirituall dedes And can you sée this Maister Sanders Now how chance you coulde not seeit before when you made the Christian Princes ciuill power to be no better than the Turkes or Tartars to stretch no furder thaÌ„ to the body a quiet lyfe haue you now espied not onely the endes wherevnto they rule but the estate also itselfe by reason of the better parte to be spirituall what hath made you see so cléerely nowe forsooth now is now and then was then You were pleading then that the Christian Princes ciuill estate was so farre different and vnlike that Princes might not meddle in spirituall matters and therfore then was fitte oportunitie to denie that Christian Princes Ciuill power had any spirituall thing in it But nowe we are in another argument that Priestes maye order and dispose
Kingdomes and depose Kings as they shall thinke expedient and to proue this â–ª we must saye they be in the Churches power and to proue that wee must saye they are spirituall â–ª and so spirituall men may deale with spirituall thyngs And for this reason we can sée no cause nowe but that Christian Kingdomes are spirituall that we spirituall men which are the Church might haue the disposing of them Well then I see also Maister Saunders that for aduantage you can and you can not see And play seest me and seest me not But who seeth not that hath any indifferent eyes that this is but legerdemain and that you speake flat contraries in one thing although you turne your tale to other purposes But let go that you saw not before let vs loke what you see in Princes now Nowe you see that they are spirituall And why so not bicause they doe the spirituall actions of the Priests but bicause of their better part that is of the spirite of God and bicause of the end wherto they driue al their things to become as it were spirituall Why then M. Saunders your eyes mighte serue you if your hart could serue you to see this withall that although the Prince can not do the spirituall actions of spirituall persons yet this hindreth not that he may notwithstanding be a gouernor ouer ecclesiasticall persons in causes ecclesiasticall and maye ouersee them both And if you can see the one and not the other surely your sight is partiall But newe M. Saunders loking another way will haue Princes no furder spirituall than in that they are vnder the Church And here making the Maior the Minor the former the later by a figure called Hysteron proteron the carte before the horse he will proue that all spirituall things are so much vnder the Churche of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body and so Kings and Kingdomes as is sayde before beyng spirituall things are so muche vnder the Churche of Christ that she may freely to the profit of the whole mysticall body dispose and decree of Kings and kingdomes But first Maister SauÌ„ders we denie your Maior For although in certaine things it be true to wit in such things as are left to the disposition of the Church that is to order and dispose such things as of their nature are indifferent to the profite of the whole mysticall body or any part thereof for these things are called spirituall things not properly in their owne nature but as in spirituall causes the spirituall persons vse them and yet all this is not so freely lefte to the Churches disposition that some principall persons in the Church as the Prince or the Pastors haue not the chiefest stroke in the disposition of them For if they were so free that euery member in the Churche shoulde haue his nay or yea in disposing of theÌ„ when would they be disposed And if at length they were it would peraduenture fall out in the end so little to the profite of the whole mysticall body that it woulde be rather the hinderaunce and disquieting of it But besides these spiritual thinges there are a great many other of whiche some in déede are méere spirituall as the worde of God the Sacramentes of Christ the Articles of fayth the Commaundementes of life and all suche thinges as God hathe either expressed in his worde or is necessarily conteyued in it These thinges béeing spiritual are not so vnder the churche of Christ that the churche may freely dispose and decree of them But they statly dispose and decree of the churche and the churche can not alter nor swarue one iote from them Whiche if she shoulde she shoulde not profite hir selfe for she is the whole mysticall body but destroy hir selfe and dissolue the whole body and euery part therof And such as these things are is the estate of a King and kingdome whiche althoughe it be not so méere a spirituall thing but so farre foorthe spirituall as your selfe confesse yet bicause it is the ordinaunce of God and God hath in his worde set foorthe the office of a King and declareth that the setting vp and pulling downe of Kinges and the alterations of kingdomes belongeth to him selfe and neuer gaue that authoritie to his Churche muche lesse to his Ministers to set vp and depose Kinges and alter kingdomes Kinges therefore and their kingdomes no more than other spirituall thinges are not so vnder the churche of Christe that she maye freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body Neither hathe the whole mysticall body any more thraldome or lesse fredome that Kings and kingdomes are not so vnder hir or that she maye not freely dispose and decree of them as she shall thinke moste profitable to the whole mysticall body than she hathe more thraldome or lesse freedome bicause she can not alter nor dispose the other spirituall things Yea in this case the Churche léeseth lesse libertie than in the other for the freedome of the Churche â–ª béeing a mysticall body is cleane another matter pertayning to the conscience and is a mysticall freedome from the tyrannie of Sathan from the cursse of the lawe from the bondage of sinne from ceremonies and humayne constitutions and not from obedience to kinges and to haue superioritie ouer them and libertie to depose them and to translate their kingdomes Whiche freedome and superioritie is not spirituall but carnall and worldly And if the Churche had it she woulde not onely bring kinges and kingdomes but euen hir selfe in bondage and therefore Christe hathe barred it Whiche freedome bicause the Popishe Churche aspireth vnto and claymeth and holdeth ouer â–ª kinges and kingdomes she is not the true Church of Christ that they boast of but rather a Iewishe Synagoge dreaming vpon an earthly Messias or rather a Persian or Turkishe Temple that measureth the freedome and dignitie of Gods Church by the pompe and mighte of the worlde to depose kings and dispose of their kingdomes at their pleasures But to proue that kings and kingdomes pertayne not to the free disposition of the Church but of God I will desire no better prooues nor example than euen M. Saunders heere brings foorthe Sithe therefore sayth he the â–ª people of Israell would needes desire a king to be giuen theÌ„ Samuel by the commaundement of God tooke a cruse of oyle and powred it vpon the head of Saule and kissed him â–ª and sayde beholde God anoyâ—…teth thee to be the Prince ouer his Inheritaunce which to me seemeth to signifie as though it had bene sayde except the Lorde anoynted thee to be the Prince thou couldest not rightly and orderly be the Prince ouer his people whiche he hathe chosen and reserued out of all the worlde to be as it were peculiar to him selfe For in that that is Gods no man can take power
nor there in his humaine nature as Christe himselfe hath testified Which as it dasheth this your case yée put so it confuteth an other chiefe errour of yours that affirme yée haue the humaine nature of Christe closed vp in a boxe and that yée eate him vp or kéepe him vp till he waxe mouldie and then you burne him vp Is this the best honor you can affoorde to Christe being conuersant heere in earth in his humaine nature If it be true that you say he is present how chance yée serue him thus is it bycause he appeareth not in his likenesse but looketh rather like a wafer if it were Christe indéede howsoeuer he loked can you finde in your hearts thus to order him But you will saye that is an other matter answere to this presupposal We speake nowe of Christ appearing in his owne likenesse How say you if he were conuersant in earth as he was shoulde hee not ouer Christian Kings haue superioritie in temporall causes so vvell as in ecclesiasticall that might promote his Churche I answere if this were admitted to be true that Christ againe were conuersant on the earth Christian Kings ought no doubt to giue him all superioritie and be vnder him in all ecclesiasticall and temporall causes that might promote his Churche acknowledging all the power they haue to procéede from him But that Christ if he were againe on the earth woulde raigne ouer Kings and in his humaine nature rule Kings in their secular causes or that he woulde thinke this a way to promote the Church or that he would depose Princes and make their subiectes reuolt from their obedience or that he woulde cease their kingdomes into his handes and make Kings to kisse his féete to leade his Horsse to holde his sturrops or that he would weare thrée Crownes and Princely roabes of gold frette with perle and stone or that he would kepe suche a princely porte and pompe as passed all other Princes which things your Pope pretending to be his Uicar in the absence of his humaine nature doth this would be harde for you to proue M. Saunders although your case were graunted that Christ personally in his humaine nature vvere conuersant in earth againe For if he would haue had any of these thinges he might haue had them when he was here on earth as your selfe confessed in the Chapter going before saying This in this kinde I vvill speake as the chiefest argument that Christe vvhile he vvas here in earth and fulfilled all the lavve and all righteousnesse notwithstanding he would gouern eccl. matters only as a Priest and by no means as an earthly king For he openly refused to administer an earthly kingdome therfore fled when he saw the people go about to do this thing that they might make him a king he denied that he was appointed a deuider betwene the brethreÌ„ Are not these your own wordes M. Sand I knowe you wrest them to an other purpose whiche there is answered vnto But howe serue they not here against your selfe â–ª trow you Christe is now become of an other mynde than he was when he was here on earth if he be still of the same mind then would he not take vpon him if he were here againe on earth the estate of an earthly King nor gouerne in secular causes But trowe you your Pope pretending to be his Uicar would suffer this seese the temporalties he possesseth the kingdomes he hath gotten the honor that is giuen him or any thing else that in eccl. secular causes vnder pretence of the Churches promotion he vsurpeth ouer all kings Christian no he would rather handle Christ worsse if he could lay hands vpon him then euer did the Iewes he wold not onely crucifie Christe againe but burne him cleane to ashes for an hereâ—…ike rather then he would lose this honor or any iote thereof But and if Christe were here againe conuersant on earth in his humaine nature woulde he suffer the Popes intollerable pride and errours would he allowe him to abuse his name as thoughe he were his deputie and Uicar generall I trow not Not that I thinke he séeth it not or suffers it not or hath not by his prouident iustice ordeined that Sathan should set vp such an Antichrist to delude strongly the Children of vnbeleefe and to exercise vnder the Crosse of Christ his litle elected flocke But that if Christe should so come as he here supposeth surely I woulde thinke the cause of his coÌ„ming to be euen to destroy spiritu oris eius with the breath of his mouth this man of sin not to mainteine him in his pompe muche lesse himselfe to take the like vpon him Not that Christe is not a king ouer the house of Iacob not that his kingdome is not eternal as the Angel said to Marie not that he should not subdue al earthly kingdoms to his spiritual kingdome but that his kingdome is spiritual not earthly the subduing of earthly kingdomes is with a sword that conquereth the soule of man that is the word of God with a force from aboue subduing the will of man that is the spirite grace of God and not such a subduing of their kingdomes that it dissolueth their polycies estates or deposeth their kings maketh the people take Armes and exerciseth â–ª in secular causes an earthly Kings authoritie M. Saunders pretendeth this is to promote the Churche of Christ but suche promotion confoundes deuotion and hath poysoned the Church of God as they say a voyce was heard what time Constantine although falsly is supposed to haue endowed the Church with such royall honor Hodie venenum intrauit in ecclesâ—…n This day entered poyson into the Church But Christ hath flatly forbidden it and tolde his Disciples when they asked such promotion that they knewe not what they asked But afterwarde they knewe and founde the saying of Christ to be true that their promotion lay in their affliction and not in their kingly honor And thus we sée the falsehood of the maior forged vpon this fained presupposall whiche is not to be graunted and yet if it were graunted it would fall out to the vtter ruine of the Pope all his Prelates Such ill lucke hath M. Sand stil to light on such examples as he coÌ„ceineth to make for him but being a litle better examined make most of al against him Now to the minor that Christ hath giuen to his Ministers in the visible ministerie all the povver necessarie to saluation that he should haue himselfe in his humaine nature Where find you this M. Sand I thinke it will be ouer hard a matter for you to proue that all the povver necessarie to saluatioÌ„ that he shoulde haue himselfe in his humaine nature in the visible ministerie he hath giueÌ„ it al to his ministers Al power saith Christe is giuen to me in heauen and in earth this is spoken in respecte
togither that your Pope might haue both powers in him but still what is this to the purpose that Bishops may depose Kings VVhether of these therfore say you shal obtaine the chiefer parts in the body of the Churche shall not the spirituall power which is giuen of God himself by Iesus Christ to that end that it might minister iustice spirite and life vnto vs as for the kingly power came in deede froÌ„ God but not onely properly by Christ as he is the Sauior but also by the sense of the minde conspiring the will of the people whether it were faithful or vnfaithful neither could of it self at any time pertaine vnto heaueÌ„ or minister life vnto hir subiects If therfore the chiefe parts in the body of the Church belong to the spirituall power â–ª truely that ought of righte to gouerne and rule the kingly and all earthly power that is founde in the same body of the Church Yet again M. San. I think aboue twentie times we haue graunted you the due superioritie of the true spiritual power I put to these words due and true bicause neither is your spiritual power the true spiritual power but rather an earthly and carnall power and that spiritualnesse that it hathe is rather from the spirituall power of darknesse than of the spirite of truthe and was neuer of God nor by Christ nor administreth iustice spirite nor lyfe but iniquitie sensualitie and death nor pertayneth to heauen but leadeth to hell I meane the spirituall power of the Popishe spiritualtie The spirituall power of the Ministers of Christe I graunte dothe all these thinges you speake of and therefore it hathe a superioritie but suche as is due vnto it in the ministration of these aforesayde things and not to encroche vpon suche superioritie as belongeth to Christian Princes But to stayne the Princes power you call it earthly and so it is in some respecte but it is heauenly in other respects also bicause it came from God and it representeth the diuine power of god It came from God you saye but not by Christe but by the peoples consent Howe true this is is partly answeres before and S. Paule sayth Omnis potestas est à Deo all power is of God. Is not Christ God howe then came it not from Christ And is not this spoken of the wisedome of God which is Christ Per me reges regnant Kings rule by me You make exception not by Christ as sauiour Is not Christ aswel a sauiour in that he is king as he is a sauior in that he is priest Not that say you the Princes power of it selfe pertaynes to heaueÌ„ or ministreth life What it doth of it selfe we force not M. sand we speake of Christian kinges representing Christe the sauior Not that the Kinges power saueth no more doth the Priestes power but onely the power of Christ that is both King and Priest but that by either of these Christ worketh meanes towardes our saluation and so bothe pertayne to heauen and minister life also the Bishops power in setting foorthe Gods worde and SacrameÌ„ts the Princes power in ouerséeing that both the Bishops and clergie set them foorthe duely and that the people duetifully recoyue them But still what is this to the purpose for the Bishop to depose Princes shall we neuer come to our matter agayne this is a long vagarie But go on M. sand euen whether you list to wander For as in the same body of man all the members ought to obey the commaundement of reason onely of the minde bicause in the same body is nothing higher than the minde so also in the Churche whiche is like a mans body sithe the spirituall power gouerneth as the minde and reason all other power that is founde in the Churche besides ought of necessitie to be subiect to the spirituall power Ought I saye to be subiect not euery where nor altogither but onely in those things that pertaine to the saluation of soules and to the proper iurisdiction of the Churche And haue you spyed this nowe â–ª M. Sanders that the spirituall power in the churche is like to the rule of reason in our body but onely in these things How then pertayneth it to depose kinges to dispose translate and occupie kingdomes to cause subiects rebell which is the proper question héere in hande Do these thinges pertaine to saluation are these thinges the proper iurisdiction of the Churche â–ª then surely it is a proper Churche and it hath a proper iurisdiction or we shall make a proper saluation of â—…oules and you haue made a proper péece of worke so properly to proue your argument of the Princes deposition for the whiche I sâ—…ill â—…rie for some proofe but you haue belike forgotten it For shame M. Saund. come once agayne to your matter but go to nowe at the length you wil drawe neerer to it For if the earthly power do iniurie to the spouse of Christ or do not defende it from the iniurie of other when it may or in any thing faynte from iustice and truthe those that gouerne the church of God ought to admonish the ciuil Magistrate that he should decline from euill and do good But and if the ciuill Magistrate will not so amende himselfe they must make haste to other remedies for it can not be in a wel ordered citie but that for euery euill that may fall out there is a remedie prepared Nowe M. sand this geare beginnes to cotten For remembring at length your idle vagarie you drawe neerer to your matters for the Princes deposing And héere you presuppose thrée things either that the Church hath iniurie offred hir by the Prince either that the Prince where he may defendes hir not from others iniuries either that he himself faynteth from iustice and truthe Héere say you what remedie Those that gouerne the Church of God ought to admonishe the ciuill Magistrate that he shoulde decline from euill and do good For the admonition it is well and truly sayde M. sand and would to God the Pastors woulde thus do in these your presupposed cases â–ª But héere is no deposition of the Magistrate Howbeit craftily euen héere you haue as good as deposed him already For you make your selues â—…ose only that gouerne the Church of God and call the Prince â–ª but the ciuill Magistrate as thoughe he gouerned not also the Church of God and had nothing to do therwith but onely with ciuill affaires and that the Priestes haue all the gouernaunce of Gods Churche But as this is false neither haue you nor can you proue this but still reason à petitione principij taking that for an vndoubted true principle that is chiefly denied that you are the onely gouernors of the Church of God. So nowe that whiche you presuppose in the Prince let vs presuppose the like in you If you that call your selues the Church â–ª haue at any
time done 〈◊〉 to the Prince trow you ye neuer did it Did your Pope neuer iniurie to the Emperour did your bishops neuer iniurie to kings did your spiritualtie neuer iniurie to the laytie I thinke for shame you will not denie it If you do you shall haue witnesses inow of your owne side against you Agayne did your Pope neuer suffer iniurie to be done to Princes and might haue helped it and did not denie it you can for shame Moreouer did your Pope his Clergy neuer saynt from iustice and truth you dare not séeke to couer it it is so open and confessed What remedie now to amend these things the gouernors of the Church say you must admonish theÌ„ to decline from euill and do good Who are these gouernors of the Churche that ye speake of our selues say you Why then you must admonish your selues Would to God you had that grace M. San. that you would enter into iudgement with your selues and admonishe your selues But now running headlong in your faults and wil not heare them tolde of any other but thinke you do well he that shal tel you the contrarie you wil tell him he is an heretike if he come in your clawes you will burne him although he were some of your owne companie for so you haue serued diuers that haue rebuked your faults errors yea you are so sotted on your selues that you maintein you can not erre O how roughly wil you admonish your selues how soone shall all the worlde looke for your amendment Is not this a plaine mockerie with the world world is it not more than time for Christian princes that are in déede the gouernors of the Churche to admonishe you I denie not but you may yea ought to admonish the Prince also if he be suche an offender as you imagine But that you oughte to be the onely admonishers of them and not your selues of them to be admonished â–ª you sée the inconuenience And yet there is a difference betwéene admonishing and gouerning and a greater difference betwéene admonishing deposing But by little and little you drawe to wards it But what and if the Prince say you will not amend him selfe And what say I if the Priestes wil not amend theÌ„ selues we must make hast say you to other remedies Yea but not suche haste M. Sâ—… that you break your sâ—…nnes and much lesse such hast that you breake the ordinaunce of god For in such haste is more waste than spéede the end of it neuer wanteth â—…o We graunt you there are remedies in the Church of God for such inconueniences but no such remedies as for the subiect to attempt to depose his Soueraigne and stirre the people to rebellion But if any say you beeing admonished amende not him selfe we are bidden to denounce him to the Church VVho if if he will not heare the Church is to be accounted as an Ethnike or a publicane Are you bidden M. Sanders if he be your Prince to renounce your ciuil polytike obedience that you ought him yea although he were in déede an Ethnike if you find this you come somwhat néerer to the purpose else you do not only wrest this place which is not spoken of Princes but also straggle cleane from the matter in question But now say you if any King not hearing the Church be permitted to holde and administer his kingdome ouer Christians who seeth not all the people ouer whome that King ruleth to come into most certaine danger of losing the faith for that saying is no lesse true than auncient After the example of the king the whole world is framed So while only Ieroboam as I sayd before worshipped two Calues the one in Bethel the other in Dan and appoynted Priestes not of the sonnes of Leui but of the basest of the people This thyng became an offence to tenne Tribes and for the greatest parte of Israell the faythe peryshed The danger and offence is great we graunt of Princes thus offending But for subiects to depose their Princes for these dangers or offences the danger and offence were not remedied but augmeÌ„ted For what Prince were not then in danger if you would lay these offences to his charge were he neuer so giltlesse of them if he neuer so little offended you ye mightâ—… say he did you iniurie or he suffered other to do it he helped you not he foughte not in your quarell agaynst those Princes on whome you woulde haue set him If he swarued at any time from iustice or but spoke a worde awrie yea if he but saynted from those things you woulde haue him do would not acknowledge that he so dyd who you reproued him for it when you tolde it one to another for you call your selues the Church then in all poste haste the prince must be couÌ„ted as an Ethnike or a publicane be deposed froÌ„ his kingdome the people muste rebell In what danger by this doctrine both the Prince the people stand your selues also the teach this dangerous doctrine is apparaÌ„t The exaÌ„ple of Ieroboam is a greater case but as great as it was neither the priests nor the prophets atteÌ„pted to depose IeroboaÌ„ nor the people rebelled agaynst him no nor the tribe of Iuda nor RoboaÌ„ were permitted to war against him for all this great losse danger that the people receiued by him Sithe therefore say you the wisdome of God hathe not lefte the Churche of God whiche is a citie excellently founded and defenced without a medicine which it may giue to suche a disease neither is there any other medicine can helpe than that which taketh away so euill a king from among the people and giueth the kingdome to a better man we muste beleeue that suche power is graunted at the least to the chiefe Pastor of the Churche in these wordes feede my sheepe and whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bounde also in heauen So that the chiefe Pastor can not onely excommunicate a wicked king but also set his subiectes free from al obedience of him The wisedome of God as you say M. Sanders hathe not lefte the Church of God without medicines for suche diseases Gods worde is euen a storehouse of plaisters as well CoÌ„solidatiues as Corrosiâ—…es for the Ministers of Christs to apply them to any infected members But these medicines that are taken out of the worde of God you despise and reiecte as too base simples vaunt of your owne compoundes There is a medicine in gods word called In patientia vestra possidebitis animas vestras yâ—… shall possesse your soules in patience when a wicked Prince â—…oth vexe them There is another called In fide fundati stabiles beyng founded in faith and stable Another called Ad te leuaui oculos meos I haue lifted vp mine eyes to thee c. Another In Domino confido non
in these wordes following vnto Pilate after he had denied his kingdome to be of this world when Pilate replyed Arte thou then a King he answered thou saist that I am a king Ne tamen c. vvhiche notvvithstanding saithe Ferus least Pilate should be more offended vvith the name of a King Christe proceedeth to declare his kingdome more plainely as thoughe he shoulde say Pilate vnderstande thou this for troth and cast out of thy mynde all suspition of a vvorldly kingdome or of tyrannie This is the case I vvill not at al denie my spiritual kingdome vvhether it be before thee or before Caesar. Onely knovve thou this thing that it is not my purpose to inuade any man vvith Armes or after the manner of other Kings to raigne pompously but to erecte and establishe in earth the Diuine truth To this purpose vvas I born â–ª and to this purpose came I into the vvorlde that I might beare vvitnesse to the truth Therfore I say came I therfore was I borne not to fight with the svvorde but that I might teach and declare the truth and the Gospell vvhiche is the povver of God to saluation to all that beleeue And as I declare the Gospell so I rule by the Gospell in the heartes of the beleeuers ouer sinne death and the Deuill and for sinne vvill I giue righteousnesse for death life for the Crosse ioye for hell I vvill giue heauen these are feofments of my kingdome Of these things none can be pertaker excepte he heare my voyce and beleeue in his heart I enrich not mine vvith ryches vvith cities and other feofmeÌ„ts but by my vvords I communicate vnto them ioye life peace and to conclude heauen it selfe The Gospell therefore is the Scepter of my kingdome But what are these things against the Emperor of Rome Thus againe we sée that Christe is not such a King nor his kingdome suche as you dreame of Whiche in the ende your selfe contrarie to your selfe confesse that his kingdome is not suche an one that he euer mingled himselfe in earthly things Then Master Saunders those thinges belonged not to his Kingly office nor to his kingdome For in suche things euery King ought not onely to mingle but chiefly to occupie himselfe But strait you haue an exception at hand that he mingled not himself in earthly things except whereas they might be profitable to a spirituall ende and this your selfe before confessed was the finall ende of all the ciuill power and that all faythfull Kings ought to directe all those thinges in their kingdomes vnto spirituall endes bicause they themselues are spirituall And so what letteth but that Christe should haue raigned as a worldly King and gouerned an earthly kingdome But say you This kingdome of Christ therfore both came from heauen tendeth vnto heauen For both al povver is giueÌ„ vnto â–ª him as he vvas man and died and rose againe that he shoulde rule ouer the lyuing and the deade and that he should be set ouer the vvorkes of the handes of God and that all things should be cast vnder his feete sheepe and Oxen and moreouer the beastes of the fielde And also Saint Cyrill saith that euen the wicked in the laste daye shall arise to their punishement for Christe vvho rose firste and contained as man al men in him self Sith therefore earthly Kings administer those things that pertain to sheepe and Oxen and beasts of the fielde although they remaine Eâ—…hnikes and Infidels yet are they truely vnder Christe the King as the most vvorthy man â–ª that hath receiued the principalitie ouer all thinges of this vvorlde not from the earth but from heauen and for the same shall giue an accouÌ„t to him of their common vveale euil ordered bycause they referred not their kingdomes to a spirituall ende that is to the glorie of one god But Christ so far as appertineth to his humaine â—…atuÌ„re being lesse than Angels seemeth to me to haue receiued that kingdome that Adam first should haue administred among all creatures to the glorie of one God if he had not falne from grace and to haue renued it in himselfe and to haue directed it to a spiritual end that vvhen all things should be subiect to the Sonne of man then should the Sonne also be subiecte vnto him that hath subdued all thinges to him that God might be all in all Sith therefore Christ by his humaine nature is the King of all he truely directeth al things to a spiritual end that is to the glorie of God for God deserueâ—…h glorie yea euen in those that are damned bothe for his povver and for his iustice The effecte hereof is this that God hath giuen to the humain nature of Christ as to the principal of al his creatures al povver iudgement to direct them to a spiritual end that is to his glorie But what is this to the purpose that Christes kingdome is after the fashion of a vvorldly kingdome he gouerneth all creatures we graunt with his power and prouidence yea the sheepe Oxen and cattail that he speaketh on But dothe the kingdome of Christe consiste in these things Numquid Deo cura de bobus hath God saith Sainte Paule care of Oxen in the coÌ„sideration of his heauenly kingdome He telleth vs howe all Kings shall answere for the â—…busing of their kingdomes vnto Christ at the day of dome bycause they referre them not to a spirituall ende But he telleth not howe muche more the Pope shall aunswere for â—…surping kingdomes and abusing the spirituall kingdome of Christe to vvorldly endes But shall this iudgemente of Christ be in a vvorldly coÌ„sistorie He telleth vs how he thinketh that Christe receiued that kingdome that Adam should haue had had he not falne But thinketh he that Christe should haue ruled in an earthly Paradise or that Christ came to restore vs to no better kingdome than Adam was in before he sinned He telleth vs Al things shal be made subiect to Christe and Christe to God and God shall be all in all But thinketh he this kingdome shall be in this worlde and militant Church while the euimies striue and are not yet al subdued he telleth vs the glorie and iustice of Christ shineth in the condemnation of them that are damned But dothe he thinke this is a vvorldly glorie and humaine iustice it is true that the glorie and iustice of Christe shal shine ouer theÌ„ And so shal it in the righteouse condemnation of the Popish Church that séeketh such a vvorldly kingdome and calleth it the spiritual kingdome of Christe to cloake their pryde withall But what can Master Saunders conclude hereon for Byshops to possesse kingdoms to rule Kings to sette vp or to depose them Neither say I these thinges saithe he to shevve herevpon that povver is ouer the vniuersal vvorld giuen to the Bishops of the Chnrch as though they in all things are the Ministers and Vicars
publike mynisterie of Iesu christ For vvhatsoeuer is of Christe giuen in common to the Christian common vveale is giuen by them that exercise the Legacie for Christe and are Stevvards of his mysteries Your argument is this VVhatsoeuer is giuen in common of Christ to his Church he giues it by the Pastors But povver to make Magistrates and Iudges is giuen in coÌ„mon of Christ to his Church Ergo it is giuen by his Pastors But no man can passe more right to an other than hee hath himselfe The Pastors passe this right and povver of being Magistrates and Iudges in secular matters to another Ergo the Pastors haue right and power of being Magistrates and iudge themselues in secular matters Al these parts coÌ„clusions of these reasons I vtterly deny Master Saunders First the 〈◊〉 is fall 〈◊〉 â—…nsample Christe giues temporall peace in common to his Churche he giue â–ª plentie of fruites and seasonable weather in common to his Churche he giues health and strength of bodie in common to his Church he giues good Magistrates Kings and Princes in coÌ„mon to his Church he giues good lawes natural ciuill and municipall in common to his Churche all these are povvers giueÌ„ of Christ in coÌ„mon to the ChristiaÌ„ common vveale so well as to any other common vveale not Christian but they are not giuen by the ministerie of the spirituall Pastors The maior therefore is not true Secondly the minor is also false that Christ giueth power to his Church to make Magistrates and Iudges ouer secular matters To some Churches indéed he hath giuen this power and dothe giue it where they orderly doe choose their owne Magistrate But this can not be spoken of the Church indefinitely For the Church in most places thereof hath not the choice of Princes but God either by ordinarie succession or by extraordinarie means placeth them ouer the Church and those Princes place the Iudges Thirdly by the Church is not meÌ„t either the ecclesiastical power or the Pastors that haue that povver For the povver is but Gods gift for the Churches vse and benefite and the Pastors are but parts and members of the Church Fourthly this is false also that they can not passe a right to another that they themselues haue not For euen in the dispensation of their mysteries we maye receiue faythe and grace by their ministerie and yet they be gracelesse and haue no faith themselues And in the solemnization of Matrimonie although the Pastor haue no right to the bryde yet he transferreth the hauing of hir froÌ„ hir friends to the brydegrome so may they be Ministers in the intronizing a Prince passing a power froÌ„ God to him which yet theÌ„selues haue not except you will make them Kings And thus all your rules are false and holde not besides that they be all wrested and cleane from the sense of the sentence cited and therefore no good argument can be framed on them that that can rightly conclude the present purpose But nowe Master Saunders will applye this better and here in the margine he setteth downe in great letters Nota Note to sturre vp the Readers attention to note his application But novve saith he if that nevve Iudges must be made of the Churche rather than vve shoulde goe to lavve in secular causes before the Infidels are not nevve Kings also rather to be made of the Churche than that vve shoulde be compelled to pleade our causes before hereticall and scismatical Kings Nowe you beginne handsomely to frame your argument to your purpose for al this while you did but dallie But if the Reader note this matter as you require him to doe as he shal finde no consequence in your argument so shal he finde rancke treason in your conclusion If the argument were good then bycause the Church in Saint Paules time might choose among themselues arbiters to iudge and take vp their petite matters therefore they might haue chosen nevv Kings also to gouerne them But this coulde they not haue done without treason and rebellion therefore this argument is false Is there no difference Master Saunders betwéene the choosing of an vmpier or an arbiter chosen betwéene two parties of their owne voluntarie to iudge and descide their priuate controuersie and the choosing of a supreme publike Magistrate to gouerne their whole estate Who séeth not that this they might in no wise doe The other they might doe well inoughe And so may any of vs doe also to auoyd the charges and troubles of the lawe although we haue Christian Princes and faithfull Iudges too neither troubling those estates nor our selues and saue our money in our purses and better nourishe charitie in not going to lawe but taking vp the matter at home among our neyghbours quietly May we therefore subtracte our selues from the Iudgement Seate of the publike Magistrate when we are called or enforced by lawe thereto and whye mighte we not if we might choose a newe King when we mislyked the olde No Master Saunders this is further from Saint Paules meaning than was the other Saint Paule giues not the Corinths leaue nor power to erecte vp among them selues a publike Magistrate to flée vnto in their contentions vtterly to forsake the iudgement seates of the heathen Iudges and Princes that did gouerne them Saint Paule speakes of their owne voluntarie taking vp of matters by some indifferent man among them to be chosen as Iudge in this or that brawle betwéene them and woulde not haue them of their owne selfe will in matters that might be well taken vp among themselues to runne to Lawe before heathen Magistrates Wherein although he disalow the disorderly contention of the one yet he disaloweth not withall the orderly authoritie of the other which he confesseth to be giuen of God and he exhorteth all subiectes to obey and that for conscience sake euen the gouernement of the heathen Princes notwithstanding they were Christians that were subiectes Whereas if he had ment otherwise he hadde not onely contraryed himselfe but confirmed the sclaunder of the heathen people that the Christians were Rebelles to their estates And he might haue bene accused of sedition as styrring the people to make nevve Magistrates whiche for them being subiectes was aboue their power to doe And although this crime was layde to Saint Paules charge of sowing sedition yet could they neuer iustly proue it on him his doings and writings testifyed the contrarie with what care he labored to kepe the Christians in obedience Who otherwise might here vpon haue had great occasion of choosing nevve Princes pretending they were Christians and made frée by Christe and therefore ought not haue suffered themselues to liue in the heathen Princes bondage Which fréedome of Christian libertie least they should haue thus abused to carnall licenciousnesse and disturbed the order and quietnesse of their estate Saint Paule so often and so earnestly exhorteth them vnto obedience Neither they did so euer
that he had authoritie ouer the Priestes Firste in that he cyted them to come before him Secondly in that they obeyed his citation and came before the king Thirdly in that the high Priest calleth the King his Lord saying here I am my Lord. Fourthly when the King layde treason to his charge he replyeth not that he could be no traitor to the King beyng his superior but as inferior pleadeth he was no traytor Fiftly he acknowledgeth both Dauid to be Saules seruaunt himselfe also saying be it farre from mee let not the King impute any thing vnto his seruaunt nor to all the house of my father for thy seruaunt knew nothing of all this lesse or more Wherby it appeareth that the high Priest and all his familie were vnder the Kings obedience and so still continued after that Samuel had declared how that the Lord had rent his kingdome from him As for that the Prince abused his authoritie to the cruell murdering of innocentes we graunt it was so detestable that his souldiors did well in refusing to execute his wicked commaundement We defend no suche authoritie in Princes nor such obedience in subiectes as murdereth innocents without all lawe and Iustice and that after suche a cruell sort as did the doggishe Doeg being not content to murder the innocent ministers of God but besides to put to the edge of thes worde all the men and women in their Citie yea the Children sucking babes also You can finde no protestant Prince M. Saunders that euer did the like déede But Popishe Princes haue not onely done the like but farre surmounted both Saul and Doeg and all other cruel Princes in such vnnaturall Tragedies So fitte all Maister Saunders ensamples serue his purpose that euerye one maketh cleane against him But now saith he least any man should thinke at the least the power of those Kings that sprang from Dauid to be greater than the spirituall power of the Synagog let him besides this consider that Ahias the Silonite while Salomon was yet aliue foretolde that Ieroboam should gouerne the ten tribes VVhervpon is vnderstood that either the whole kingdome or some part therof may be taken away from a wicked King by the spirituall power of the Churche For what power was in times past in the Priests and Prophets the same is now in the pastors and teachers whose duetie it is so to consulte for the soules health that they suffer not by the disobedience and tyrannie of a wicked King the people of an infinite multitude to be compelled and drawne to scisme and heresie The argument is still as before from the spirituall power in Priests Prophets then in the Synagog to the spiritual power of popishe pastors teachers in the Church now To this besides the former answere I answere againe first the popishe pastors teachers being false pastors false teachers except it be from such Priestes Prophetes as were of Baal Balaam Bel. c. can frame no good conclusion Secondly admit they were which they pretend true pastors teachers yet the argument is not true from any particular especial charge giueÌ„ vnto some one or two of them by gods expresse commaundement to foretell this or that thing to come to conclude therevpon an ordinarie spirituall power in all the priests prophets then and the like to succéede in the pastors teachers now Thirdly neither any such thing is described or ment by S. Paulâ—… Epâ—…e 4. in the office of pastors teachers now neither this example of the old testament 2 Reg. 11. inferreth any such thing done by the priests or prophets then The example of 〈◊〉 he alleaged before but he thinketh here to frame it better to his purpose His argument is thus The prophet Ahias while King Salomon liued foretold Ieroboam that he should raigne ouer ten Tribes Ergo either the whole kingdome or a part therof may be taken from a wicked King by the spiritull power that is by the pastors and teachers of the Church I denie the argument M. sand from foretelling the taking away thereof to the taking away thereof in déede The foretelling belonged to that Prophet to whoÌ„ God not onely reuealed it but commaunded to foretell it The taking away therof either in part or in whole beloÌ„ged only to God working by his secrete or open Iustice and to those as instruments of his wrath whom he ordained to do it that is by Ieroboam and such as rebelled with him And howbeit this fact when â–ª it was done was such a specialtie as can not be drawne to an example no more than can the attempt of Abraham to kill his sonne yet was not this facte done in Salomons dayes Who all his life long raigned King of the whole kingdome notwithstanding all this Prophecie In dede Ieroboam which was a wicked man lifte vp his hand and rebelled against Salomon not tarying the Lords oportunitie as Dauid did but following his owne ambition he abused the prophetes message Who although he tolde him that God woulde giue him ten tribes yet he tolde him that Salomon shoulde raigne all his life time But I will take the kingdome saythe God by the Prophete vnto Ieroboam oute of his sonnes hande and will giue tenne Tribes to thee c. so that this serueth not Maister Saunders purpose to dispossesse the presente estate of the Prince lyuing Neyther sayth the Prophet he will doe it neyther byddeth he Ieroboam to rebel eyther against Salomon or his sonne but he sayth God him selfe would doe it To the which sentence and worke of God Ieroboam ought to haue obeyed Which in so much as he did not he disobeyed God and was a traytor to his Prince and deserued death Althoughe God by his secrete iustice so punished Salomons séede that he confirmed the Kingdome in Ieroboams handes and made him a lawfull king But in all these things here was nothyng done by the Prophete but the foretelling of Gods purpose Which notwithstanding was enioyned hym by Gods especiall commaundemente For otherwyse had he presumed thus of his owne heade by reason of the authoritie of hys Propheticall office whatsoeuer Salomen had deserued he had for his parte béene but a â—…rayterous Prophete and so are all those Popishe Pastors and teachers that teache subiectes to rebell against their Soueraignes on pretence of these examples True Pastors and teachers by thys particular example maye learne thus muche in generall to teache Princes to feare God and dreade his Iustice to beware of Idolatrie and of ioyning themseluâ—…s in mariage or in other leagâ—…es of friendship wyth the enimyes of gods truth As Salomon â—…ell to Idolatrie by marying of Infidels Achab for ioyning in friendshippe with Benadab was punished and marying the wicked Iesabell did euen â—…ell him selfe to wickednesse Yea the good King Iosaphat for ioyning in league with the wicked King Ochozias Achabs sonne was reproued sharpely and his ships perished These
also and the spirituall power to be greater than the earthly power and that the spirituall power may spiritually punish the resisters of it But that the ordinary spirituall power of the Priests or Prophets may depose the ordinary secular power of Kings Princes that the pastors spiritual sword may strike the secular sworde out of the Magistrates hande to whome it is of God committed that the spiritual power may of his own nature punish Princes with bodily punishment and take their state and kingdomes from them and cause their subiects to rebel agaynst them This we vtterly denie and this is the very question Now héerto is alleahed the facte of Elias sitting in the mount who prayed to God that fire might consume the wicked kings messangers that derided the Prophets and would by force haue setched him to the king To this I answere first for this king he resembleth no protestant Prince but rather the popish Princes who not onely beeing sicke as Ochozias was but also in healthe as thoughe there were no God in Israell séeke not to the onely liuing Lorde to Christ the onely sauiour and mediatour but to Idols as Ochozias did to Eeelzebub and woulde murther the Prophets of God that reproue them for it as Elias did Secondly for Elias he sat not on the toppe of the mountaine to signifie the chiefest place of the church which chiefest place he tooke not vpon him And do not your selfe ascribe the chiefest place of the Church to the highe Priest or Bishop Or was the Prophet theÌ„ aboue the chiefe Priest or intruded he into the high Priests place or were both in the chiefest place and so your Pope claymes the chiefest place of the church from both of them True it is that in his time Elias was the chiefest instrument that God vsed in the râ—…formation of the Church yet neither tooke he vpon him the chiefest place of the Churche nor exalted him selfe aboue the king nor deposed him or his father or any other prince howe wicked soeuer they were nor incited other to rebell agaynst them And this you should proue that Elias did or else ye stray from your question Thirdly for this facte of Elias I answere as before It is no ensample for vs to followe the like Neither did Elias vse it ordinarily in his defence but vpon especiall occasion God by his iustice defended thus his Prophet and reuenged the contumelie wherwith they scorned not onely him but God in destroying those wicked deriders after suche a terrible miraculous sorte Not for that they were the kings ministers but for that they assented to the kinges crueltie and besides béeing Idolaters they scorned the power of God in him in calling him in derision The man of God. For so sayth Lyra Cognouit autem c. Elias knewe by reuelation that in mockage he called him the man of God and was consenting to the king in the sinne of Idolatry and in the punishment of Elias and likewise they that were with him and that herevpon by the sentence of God they were to be punished for the which cause he pronounced the diuine sentence So that the striker héere was God Elias onely pronounced the sentence of Gods iustice Neither dyd he any thing héerein but by the especiall motion of god He woulde not come downe as master Saunders therein saythe true no not at the moste humble entreatie of the thirde Captayne tyll the Angell of GOD badde hym not feare but goe downe Wherevpon saythe Caietane Vide actiones Eliae c. See the actions of Elias are gouerned by the Angels direction in euery poynt that is to saye so well his outwarde as his inwarde motions Wherby we may sée that he did not this facte by any ordinarie iurisdiction of his Propheticall office but by the especiall direction of God whiche can not nor oughte to be drawne into example for other to do or wishe the like Fourthly this example to follow Elias héerein is of all other flatly forbidden to the Disciples of christ For when the Samaritanes would not receiue Christ into their Citie Iames and Ioâ—…n sayde Lorde wilâ—…e thou that we commaunde that fire come downe from heauen and consume them euen as Elias did But Iesus turned about aâ—…d rebuked them and sayde ye knowe not of what spirite you are For the sonne of man is not come to destroy mens liues but to saue them Nowe this example of the seuere iustice of God thus desired of them and they reproued by Christ for desiring the lyke M. Sanders resumeth for his Bishops authoritie Wherby it appeareth he knoweth not of what spirite Christian Bishops ought to be and that Popishe Bishops are of another spirite than Christ is of For Christ came not to kill Princes to fire their townes to burne their people and depose Kinges from their kingdomes to whiche drifte all this is spoken Lastly I denie this drift consequence of the example Elias prayed that fire might consume them from heauen Ergo Christian Bishops ought to take away the corporall goodes of Hereticall and Schismatical Princes If the conclusion had béene thus Ergo they mighte pray that God would take their corporal goods away it had béene a more likely and a more tollerable conclusion Howbeit this also is forbidden to pray to haue their corporal goodes taken away It were their dutie rather to pray the they might better vse them that God woulde either conuert them or otherwise at his good pleasure stoppe their tyrannie They ought not to pray for the taking away of any mans goodes much lesse their Soueraignes goods to whoÌ„ your selfâ—… confesse that they them selues are subiect â—…o farre as their goods and bodies And then be they not ouer the goodes and bodies of their Princes béeing their subiectes least of all ought they either by theÌ„selues or by any other to take their Princes goods and bodies from them For that is not a subiects but a traitors and a rebels part But saith M. Saunders they may take his bodily goods from their King so they doe it debito modo ordine after a due maner and order He told vs thus before but it is cleane beyond all good maâ—…er against al due order to take away any mannes goods chiefely the Princes yea and that the Bishops or priests to do it The example of S. Ambrose complaining that the Emperor misâ—…sed him is cleane against M. Saund that alleageth it for him For S. Ambrose tooke not the Emperors goods away nor deposed him nor caused other to rebell against him but for all the Emperors missusage of him he continued stil in his obedience to the Emperor Howbeit he told the Emperor of his dutie and so should al godly Bishops do and not attempte to depose their Princes nor to stirre vp other to depose them Let vs now put the case saith M. SauÌ„ders that some man which was a Prince was present with Elias
Princes and earnest defenders of the faith and Church of Christe And all true subiectes maye sticke the faster in all duetifull obedience to their naturall Princes detesting the foraigne vsurpation of the Pope and all the traiterous seducings of these his chaplaines That Antichrist may haue the ouerthrow the Prince may haue the regiment the truth mayâ—… haue the victorie the reader may haue the benefite and God aboue all things may haue for euer the glory through Iesus Christs our onely Lord and Sauiour So be it FINIS Psalme 2. VVherfore be ye now aduised O ye Kings be ye learned ye that are Iudges of the erth serue ye God vvith feare and reioyce vnto him with reuerence kysse the sonne leà st he be angrie and so ye perishe from the right vvay if his vvath be kindled yea but a little blessed are all they that put their trust in him Luc. 6. Prefac 2. Fol. 59. b. 1. Pref. pag. 1â—… Fol. 5 b. F de ma. te â—… qui habet serâ—…um c. 1. Prefa pa. 19 â–ª I. Fol. 1. a. Prefa diui 1. Master Feckéhaâ—…s further meaning than he durst vtter Winchest Stapleton Fol. 1. a. Pref. sect 1. 2. Bridges Our chiefe end in this coâ—…nouersia The Papistes chiefe ende in this controuersie M. Stapleton misreckâ—…neth in his nuÌ„bers 3. Winchest Stapleton Pref. â—… sect 2. Fo 2. b. M. Stap. pipeth avvâ—…oÌ„g round 4. Fol. 5. a. Pâ—…efa diuis 3. False translations 5. fo 6. c. 1. di 1. The false title of M Feckeohams treatise 6. 7. fo 6. c. 1. di 1. 8. f. 9. b. c. 1. di 2. The coÌ„lecture of others help 9. Fol. 10. diui Passing good manners 10. Winchest Stapleton Fol. 10. diui 2 Bridges A good meaning M. Stapletons well meaning in an il matter M 〈◊〉 baptisme 1. Cor. 2. 11. Fol. 10. diui â—… 12. Fol. 10. câ—…p 1. diuis 2. The feare of M. Feckenaâ—…s shrinking froÌ„ his confederates Fol. 11. b. 14. Folâ—… 13. a. diuil 3. The giuing vp of M 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 15. Foli 14. a diuis 4. M. Feckohams and the Papists disobedience 17. 18. 19. The Papistes sighs and grones for a chaÌ„ge The Pope takes vpon him to be God. The Pope clay meth the Queenes maiesties place Foli 28. Fol. 30. b. diui 6. M. Sta. confesseth that Mast. Feck spoyled Queene Mary of hir royall power What is catholike 〈◊〉 Fol. 30. cap 4. diui 6. 25. Fol. 32. diui 7. The toure M. Feckenhams holde 26. M. Fecknhams charges in the tower defrayd by his frendes 27. Folio 32. diui 7. M. Stapletons vnorderly reckoning his vntruthes 28. Fol. 35 a. diui 8. Whether falshod may bee known or no. Genes 3 Iohn 3. 29. Foli 35. a. diuis 8. Fo. 35. diui 8. M. Stapletons cunning handling the matter M. Fecknhams yelding to the supremacie in K. Edwardes reigne 31. Fo. 35. diui 8. The coÌ„ference had with maister â—…eckeÌ„ham â—…n king â—…dwards reigne 32. Foli 35. a. b diuis 8. 33. Folio 39. a. diuis 9. Fol. 40. 2. diuis 10. 34. 35. 36. 37. 38. Fo. 42. diu 11 Moyses 39. Fol. 45. a. diuis 12. Iosue 40. Foli 45. a. diuision 12. Eleazar 41. Fol. 46. b. diuis 13. Dauid 42. Folio 48. b. diuis 14. Salomon The execution of Gods sentence empayteth not the Princes suprem authoritie 3. Reg. 2. 1. Reg. 2. 1. Reg. 3. M. Stap. falsly wresteth the text to his aduauntage How Salomon fuâ—…filled the prophecie How Soule also fulfilled the prophecie Gods foretelling of things 43. Fol. 48 b. diuis 14. 2. Paral. â—… M. Stap. quarel at the print of the letter not at the matter 44. Fol. 49. diuis 14. M. S. standeth on the termes of the scripture and le ts go the matter of the scripture 45. Fol. 49 b â–ª Diuis 15. 46. Fol. 52 a. diuis 16. 47. Fol. 52. a. Diuis 16. 50. Fol. 58. Diuis 18. Fol â–ª 58. Diuis 16. M Stapletons fortresse S. Aug. iudgement of the catholike Church 52. Fol. 65 a. Diuis 19. 53. Fol 67 a. Diuis 20. 54. Fol. 67 a. diuis 20. 55. Images and Idols Fol. 67. b. Diuis 20. 59. Fol. 69. Diuis 21. 57. Fol. 70 b. Diuis 22. 59. Fol. 71. a. diuis 22. 60. Fol. 71. â—… Diuis 22. M. Sta. graunt out of Sainte August 61. Fol. 75. Diuis 23. The vnderstan ding of Eusebius Fol. 75. diuis 23. 63. Fol. 75. b. diuis 24. Fol. 76. Nicephorus compareth Emanuell or Andronicus to Constantine the greate 64. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â–ª b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Whether this Emperor were Emanuell or Andronicus 65. Fol. 76 â–ª a. Diuil 24. Fusebius his pâ—…ayse of the Emperor 66. Fol. 76 a. Diuis 24. 67. Fol 79 a. Diuis 25. The woorde godlynesse in S. Paule comprâ—…hendeth religion Fol. 79. â—… diuis 25. Racking a sentence 68. 69. Fol 81 b. Diuis 26. Stapl. Pag. 22. 23. Prefa 1. Staplet Pag. 24. Prefat 2. Stap. Pag. 24. Sâ—…p Pag. 24. Stap. Pag. 24. Stap. Pag. 25. Stap. Pag. 25. Stap. Pag. 25. Prefat 2. Stap. pag. 26. Stap. Pag. 27. Prefat 2. Stap. Pag. 27. Pref. 2. Aug. de vâ—…ilitate credendi â–ª Cap. 9. Stap. Pag. 27. Stap. Pag. 27. Pref. â—… Stap. pa. 27. Pref. 2. Stap pa. 27. 28. Stap. pag. 28. Stap pa. 28. Pref. 2. Stap. pa. 29. Pref. 2. Stap. pa 28. Pref. 2. Stap. pa. 29. Pref. 2. Ephes. 2. Stap. pag. 29. Pref. 2. Esay 48. Ierem. 17. Stap. pag. 29. Pref. 2. St. pa. 29. 30 Pref. 2. Stap. pa 30. Pref. 2. Stap pa. 31. Pref. 2. Sâ—… pa. 31. 32 Pref. 2. Stap. pa. 32. Pref. 2. Stap. pa. 33. Pref. 2. Stap. li. 1. ca. 1. Fol. 1. Stap. fol. 1. Winchester Fol. 2. b. 3. a Stapl. fol. 3. a. The state of the coÌ„trouersie and principall question M. FeckenhaÌ„ DiuisioÌ„ 8. Pag. 6. b. St. fol. 3. a. M. Sta. requireth sixe considerations to be graunted or euer he enter into the question Stapl. 3. b. The first consideration 3. Reg. 2. The seconde consideration St. fol. 3. b. The third coÌ„sideration Stap. fol. 3. b. The 4. consideration Stap. fol. â—… b. The. 5. consideration Stap. fol. 3. b. The 6. consideration Stap. fol. 3. b. Stap. fol. 4. a. Sta. fol. 3. a. b. Stap. fol. 4. â—… Stap. fol. 4. a. Stap. fol. 4. a. Stap. fol. 4. a. Stap. fol. 4. b. Stap. fol. 4. b. Stap. fol. 4. b. Winchester SecoÌ„d diuisioÌ„ Stapl fol. 5. a. Fol. 6. a. b. Feckenham Winchester Fol. DiuisioÌ„ 1. St. fol. 6. b. St. fol. 7. a. St. fol. 7. a. Stap. 7. a. Stap. 7. b. Stap. 7. b. The title of L. Bishop Sta. fol. 7. b. Stap. S. â—… The papistes argument of B. succession Galat. 2. Stap. fol. 8. â—… 1. Tim. 4. 1. Tim. 3. Hebr. 13. Canon 6. Stap. fol. 8. b Stap. 10. b. The disputation at West An. 1. Eliz. Stap. 12. a. Stap. 12. a. Stap. 12. a. b Stap. 12. b. Stap. 13. a. Stap. 13. a. Psal. 95. Stap. 13. a. Stap. fol. 13. a. Fol. 13.
Popes councels Esay 8. Psal. 2. Howe general the Popes couÌ„ cels are Stapl. 54. a. The acte of parliameÌ„t admitteth the gâ—…rall couÌ„ncels The worde of god the rule of all true general Councels Tripartit hist. lib. 2. cap. 5. Theodoret. Athanasius in epistola ad Epictetum Corynthi episcopum Contra maximinum ArianuÌ„ li. 3. ca. 13. In psalm 92. Epistola 3. ad FortunatianuÌ„ Epistola 112. ad PaulinaÌ„ de videndo Deo. In mat ca. 24. Homil. 49. In Sermone de baptismo Christi Ad reginas de recta fide Thom. Aquinas in secunda secundae Questione 1. Artiâ—… 10. Alphons de Castro aduersus heres li. 1. cap. 8. 2. Cor. 6. Ferus in Matth. 13. Ferus in Matth. 11. â—… Pet. â—… Stapl. 54. a. Psalm 25. Esayas 33. Heretikes are to be coÌ„uinced by the Scripture Chryso in opere imperf hom 49. Contra maximum 〈◊〉 lib. 13. ca. 14. Psal. 118. The errours of councels when they swerued from the Scripture Carthaginense 1. Concil Laodiceâ—…um Concil Nicenuâ—… 1. Zozom lib. 3. cap. 11. A souldiours life alowâ—…ble among Christians Concil Calcâ—…don Hebr. 13. 1. Cor. 7. Panormitanuâ—… de electione cap. significasti Aug. contr Do natist li. 3. cap. 4. Math. 10. Act. 25. Examples of 〈◊〉 noughâ—…e couÌ„câ—…ls Psal. 25. Psal 115. Rom. 3. Esay 8. Ambrosius Deâ—…r Gratiani Can Sâ—…â—…s qâ—… pâ—…aest 11 q â—… Panoâ—… A lay mâ—…n alleaging 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before a geneâ—…all councel Iohn Gerson Innocentius 3. C. Cum vene de except Sta. 54 a. The godly kings in the old testament admitted no foraigne Prelates authoritie Sta. 54. a. The Popes power foraygne Sta. 54 a. Stap. 54 a. Stap. 54 a. Greg. Nazian The Popes Councels not generall True generall Councels are not foraigne power to this or any Christian realme nor excluded by the Act of Parliament St. 54. b. Master Stap. fifte false mark More lay men among the Papists than among vs enioy ecclesiasticall liuings Ad Eugenium 〈◊〉 In sermonâ—… 6. ad Psalm 91. Raulinus in quadragesimali Sermone 22. The tale of him that gotte a benefice of the Pope in the Diuels name 8. Q. 1. C. Veâ—…cor 2. Q. 7. C. Secuti 2. Q. 7. August 2. Q. 7. Noâ—… omnis MoÌ„ks in times past were but â—…ay The popishe priests and Bishops were â—…ay Bernardus Glossator in ca. St clericus Erasm. Châ—…ad Encom moriae Math. 5. Stapl. 54. b. The sixt false marke of M. Stapl. Florobellus de principal â–ª rom eccl. ex bald 6. q. 1. c. pastoralis Stapl. 54. b. M. Staplet 7. false marke A Bishops iurisdiction Preaching not simplie forbidden to preachers Staplet 8. falâ—…e marke Stapl 54 b. Tenthes and First fruites to the Prince Tenths First fruites far better bestowed on the Prince than on the Pope The Papists ar gumeÌ„t of â—…osephes immunitie to the Egiptian priestâ—… Gen. 47. The affinitie betweene the Popish priests and the Egiptian priests Gâ—…ialium Dierum li. 2. cap 8. In Epithetis textorn Diodorus Siculus de rebus antiquis li. 4. cap. 1. M. Sâ—…a Ninth false marke Stâ—…p 54. b. The title of supreme head The oth of the Supremaciâ—… Tendring the othe Charging the 〈◊〉 with the othe A woman Prince Master Feck demaund satisfied in euery one of the foresayde examples St. fol. 55. a. The Papistes curtesie Robin Hood Litle Iohn Fol. 55. a. b. Stapleton The. 16. chap. Stap. 56. a. Master Stap. obiection of witte Stap. 56. a. M. St. quarels at the Bishops testimonies out of the new testament Sta. 56. b. Stap. 56. b. M. Feck secret heresies Math. 9. Ierem. 17. Psal. 93. Stap. 56. b. Sta. 56. b. Supra 55 a. The Heresies that the papists falsly charge vs withall August Epiph de haeres Hier. contra Iouiniam Ambr. Li. 10. Epi. 18. Ambros. serm 91. Euth in Panopl tit 33. Euth Zigab in Paul. tit 21. Hieron coÌ„tra Vig. Ionas Episcopus Auâ—…elian contra Claud. Futh in Panopl Tit. 22. August lib. 1. cont 2. Epist. Pela ad Bon if cap. 13. Cyril lib. 6. coÌ„t Iulian. August coÌ„t 2. Epist Pâ—…l ca. 4 Caluine in his Institutions ca. 18. In fine Argentorati impress Anno. 1545. Epiph. Philast de Haeres â–ª Clemens li. 3. recog Irenaeus Li. 1. cap. 20. The Papistes deface the glorie of Christ as ill as Arius or Aerius Difference betwene Priest and Bishop Hieronimus ad Titum Dist. 93. can Olim idem Lib. 4. Dist. 24. 1. 1. Tim. 3. Durandus de sancto Portiâ—…no in lib. 4. Sent. Dist. 24. Q. 6. Instituâ—…o doct Christi de â—…acr or dinis fol. 196. Summa angelica L. ordo The Papistes controuersie about their holy orders Difference betvvene fasting not fasting Fuseb eccl. hist. li. 5. ca. 18 Eccl. histor lib. 5. cap. 24. Tripartit hist. lib. 9. cap. 38. Fonre thinges to be noted in the fastings of the auncient Church Trip. Hist. li. 1 ca. 10. Hieron ad Nepotianum The Popishe chief fastest Chavvcer in the Monkes Prologue Lib. 7 de 〈◊〉 2. hâ—…r M. St. belieth Aerius The Church of Englande allovveth fasting Saterday fast Aug. Epi. 83. Rom. 14. The Churche of Rome appoynted not lawes for fasting to other Churches Fridayes and Saterdayes fasts no more than other dayes by the scripture No difference of merite in fasting or not fasting Ferus in Math. Cap. 9. The Papistes confesse they make greater conscience on mans decrees thaÌ„ gâ—…ds word Iudging of the faster or not faster The work and the trust in the worke Why Christ prescribed not orders in these things The Papistes confesse them selues to bee Phariseys Ferus in ca. 12. Math. Misiudging in fasting The Popishe righteousnesse worse than the Phariseys Outwarde things Two things commaunded in keeping the Sabaoth Two things in euery precept the heart the outward work Ecclesiasticall constitutions Apparell The Papists abuse in all these things Sacrifice for the deade Aerius againe belyed Hypognost lib. 5. Saint August knevv not of any purging place for the deade Marke 9. Luke 16. De verbis Apostoli Serm. 18. De vanitate sâ—…culi Origens error of the damned The Pope deliuereth out of hell The soules in heauen neede no prayer for deliuerie The Grecians and Egyptians errours about the deade Epiph. in lib. Anachoratus Ambro. in Rom. 1. August de ciu dei Iud. Epist. August de mirabilibus sacrae script lib. 1. Cap vlt. 1. Cor. 15. August Enchi ad Laurent Theophil in â—…or The godly fathers errors about the dead Epiphanius defectes The drift of Aerius The auncient fathers memories for the dead were but thankes giuing and prayses Whie they praysed God for the dead Epiph cont Haer. lib. 3. to 1. Haer. 75. In Epist â–ª ad 10. Hierosol epist. Stapl. 77. b. Prayers needlesse for the saincts in heauen Ca. Cum Marthae decele Missae Prayer â—…lesse for them that dyed in their sinnes Ad Demetrianum Tom. 1. Lib. de varijs quest Q 19. 13. Quest. 2. câ—… in praesent In Esai ca. 65. Chry. ad Heb. ca. 2. hom 4. De Lazaro coÌ„cione
that M. Stapl. passeth so slightly ouer proue the full matter M. Stapleton letteth go the principall mat ter and quarels at the margin Stapl. 77. a. The englishing of the worde supremus The last taken for the chiefest The proportion betweene the stay of an anchor and the staye of a Prince Sadliâ—…g â—… Cowe Beggerly shifts Stapl. 78. b Nicephorus his amplification Stap. fol. 78. b The force of a metaphore 2. Tim. â—… Stapl. 78. b. 1. Tim. 8. M Stapletons order to this diuision Stapl. 79 b Stapl. 80. a. Stapl. 80. a Comparison of learning betweene bishop Gardineâ—… bishop White and Bishop Horne Sta. 80. a. Prouer. 12. Wherfore Nicephorus dedicated his ecclesiastical historie to the Emperour Prefa Niceph. The princes exact iudgement and censure in ecclesiastical matters The Princes reformation of the priestes and of the Churche Stapl. 80. b 79. â—… M. Stapl. inconstancie and contradiction Stapl. 80. b M Stap. grauÌ„teth the good regiment of magistrates to be the spring of true religioÌ„ Prosperitie religion ioyned in a Prince Prâ—…fa Niceph. Stap. 80. b. Stapl. 85. â—… The Grecians fell into the Turkes captiuitie after this submission to the Pope The Papistes haue as muche cause or more to beware by the Grecians captiuitie than the ProtestaÌ„ts The Pope the chiefe cause of the Greke emperours decay The Pope also the chief cause of the Weast Emperours decay The Greeke church neuer became captiue to the Turke till they became thrall to the Pope Stap. 81. a The countreys that obeyed the Pope become thrall to the Turks cap tiuitie Stapl. 81. â—… Blearing the readers eyes How M. Stapl. answeres the Bishops allegation Cyril epi. 17. â—…om â–ª 4. Wherein the Emperoures chief care consisted Obscuritie 2. Cor. 2. Stapl. 8 â—… â–ª b Generalities Particularities Cyril epi. 17. tom 4. The discussing and debating Ecclesiasticall matters argueth not the supreme gouernement of theÌ„ How the Papistes elude the examples of christian princes Stapl. 81. b Stapl. 81. b. M. Stapl. false and subtile translation Principalitie of priest â—…ode Priesthoode sprong not froÌ„ Peter Gal. 2. The Papistes saye S. Iames sayd the 〈◊〉 Masse Peter no massing priest What manner of principalitie of priesthoode Valentinian ment Concil tom 1. The Epistle of Placidia to Theodosius The Epistle of Eudoxia to Theodosius Theodosius Epistle to Valentinian Wherein the Emperour had the gouernement of the councell The Emperor decreeth the decree of the Councell No appeale after the Emperours decree Stapl. 82. â—… Stapl. 82. â—… Act. â—… Stapl. 82. â—… Pag. 19. b. M St. order to this diuision Stapl. 82. b. cap. 20. The state of the question Supra pag. 136. Stap. 82. b. The supreme authoritie the Papistes grauÌ„t to Princes and in what sense they graunt it Stap. 82. b. What state of the question M. St. setteth downe The oth of the supremacie The othe and the statute slaâ—… deâ—…ed by the Papistes Supreme gouernmeÌ„t is not all maner of gouernement How the ministers are higher or inferiour Stapl. 83. a. Stapl. 83. a. The statute eâ—… cluding any forain persons authoritie excludeth net the authoritie of the whole churche Gala. 3. Coloss. 3. Ephe. 2. What authoritie it is that the true catholike church hath Iohn 15. Stap. 8â—… a M. Stapl. quarell for vniting the supremacie to the crovvne M. Stapl. at the ende of his booke woulde leaue a scruple in the readers head of misselyking the state The answere to M. Stapl. inconneâ—…ence of a Turke or an heretike to haue this supremacie Difference betwene a Turke and an heretike What a Turke would doe if he had the crovvne Iob. 34. Psalm 147. The Princes certain and pre sente righte oughte not to be forsakeÌ„ for feare of vncertain inconueniences that may be doubted to come Difference betwene a Princes authoritie and a Princes tyrannie The Statute cleared from M. Stap. inconuenieÌ„ce Howe muche the Papistes regarde the crowâ—…e of 〈◊〉 How well the Pope wisheth to England Whether M. St. inconuenience wold not fall oute if the clause of supre macie were vnited to the Pope What the lawe respecteth in the statute Stapl. 83. a. b. Stapl. 83. b Stapl. â—…3 b. Stapl. 83. b. The excuses of the Papists Stapl. 83. b The Papistes pretence of zeale to God to disobey their Prince The absolute obedience to God hindreth not the conditionall obedience to the Prince What the Papists meane here by God. Hovv Thomas Becket died for Gods cause Sta. 83. b. The accusation of vs. Stapl. 83. b The B. charged for omitting the Principall ecclesiasticall cause Cap. 63. b M. Stapletons contradiction M. Stap. wold driue the B from his issue The Prince and the statute slâ—…undered Difference betwene ecclesiasticall gouernour and gouernour in ecclesiasticall causes How iudgement in ecclesiasticall causes is ascribed to the Prince how not Gal. 1. The statute slaundred The Popishe churche claymeth superioritie in iudgeging of doctrine aboue the Pope Stap. 48. a. Stap. 48. b. Math. 12. The original of bothe powers Lib. 2. cap. 1. pag 56. M. Saunders beginneth with contradictions to himselfe Saund. pag. 57 Saund. 57. Saund. 57. sand pag. 57. Supra pa. 108. Difference betwene the ciuill power of heathen and christian Prin ces Maister Saunders contradictions Saund. pag. 57 The kingdom of Christe in this world but not of this worlde Ecclesiasticall power Saund. pa. 57. How the royal power submitteth it selfe to the Ecclesiasticall power The distinction of In of Stapleton fol. 29. a. b. Deuter. 17. Saund. pa. 57. The vse of both powers M. Saunders contradictioÌ„ Supra pag. 791. Howe Hâ—…lie had the ciuil and ecclesiâ—…sticall power Howe Noe Melchizedech and Abraham had both powers Sâ—…und pa. 56. Howe Moyses had bothe powers How the Machabees had them Howe Samuel had them Speciall consecration Sauâ—… pag. 57. Ozias example Supra pag. sand pag. 57. Supra pag. 670. sand pag. 57. 58. The ende of both powers Math. 10. 1. Tim. 2. How farre the ende of the ciuill power stretcheth Supra pag. 117. M. San. maymeth S. Paules sentence Supra pag. 669. Killing the â—…o dy is not the proper ende of the Princes power An ill Priest killes the soule Platina de sententijs Pij 2. Pag. 80. M. Sanders contrarieth him selfe sand pag. 58. What superiour power we ascribe to the Prince Saund. pa. 5â—… M. sand order in this chapter sand pag. 58. M. Saunders Definition of a gouernour M. sand examples to coÌ„firme his definition M. sand definition false M. sand examples insufficient Diuers instances against M. sand exaÌ„ples The instance of an Embassadour M. Feck tale of a gentleman defending that mustard was good with all meate The instance â—… of woman sand pag. 58. Maister Saunders exceptioÌ„ The vvill and povver of a king restrayned by lavve The similitude of a mannes body Sand. 58. Matth. 28. Iohn 20. 1. Cor. 11. Num 27. Iud. 4. 4. Reg. 11. Gal. 4. 4. Reg. 11. 4. Reg 22. 1. Tim. 2. 1. Cor. 14. Gal. 4. M Saunders argumeÌ„t standeth all
that said there was no difference betweene Priest and Bishop betweene him that fasted and that did not fast and that the sacrifice for the dead was fruitlesse Howe say you to Iouinian that denied virginitie to haue any excellencie aboue Matrimonie or any speciall rewarde at Gods handes to the Arians that denied the miracles done at Saints tombes to be true Miracles and that the Martyres can not cast out the Diuels and relieue them that be possessed To the Bogomiles that said the Diuels sate at the Saints tombes and did wonders there to illude and deceyue the people to cause the people to worship them To Berengarius condemned in diuerse Councels first for denying of the Real presence in the Sacrament of the Altare and then for denying the Transubstantiation To the Paulicians that said these woordes of Christ take eate this is my bodie are not to be vnderstanded of his bodie or the bread and wine vsed at the celebration of our Lordes maundie but of the holy Scriptures â–ª which the priestes should take at Christes hande and deliuer and distribute to the people To Claudius and Vigilantius that denied the inuocation of Saintes and enueighed against the blessed reliques and the vse of lightes and other ceremonies of the Church To the Massilians and other heretikes saying that concupiscence as a sinne remaineth in vs after holy baptisine And bicause ye shall not say I suppresse conceale or obscure the chiefe and most notable persons of your auncestrie how say ye to the Emperours Philippicus Leo Constantinus condemned with their adherentes by the seuenth general Councel at Nice that villayned by defacing breaking and burning the images of all the holy hallowes of Christ and Christes to to whome for your more honour and glorie I adioyne the Emperour Iulianus the Apostata VVho as ye do in your bookes and pulpits cried out vppon the Christians O ye wretched men that worship the wood of the Crosse setting vp the signe of it vppon your foreheads and dores you therefore that are of the wisest sorte are worthy to be hated and the residue to be pitied that treading after your steppes come to such a kinde of wretchednesse To the Pelagians affirming that children not Baptised shal be saued and yet are your Maisters in this point worse than the Pelagians aswell for that some of them haue saide that some infantes though vnbaptized shal be damned and some other though vnbaptized shal be saued And some of them especially Caluine and other Sacramentaries say that they shall come without Baptisme to the kingdome of heauen which the Pelagians durst not say but that they should haue the life euerlasting putting a difference but peeuishlie betwixt these two And if ye thinke the race of your worthie generation is not fetched high inough we wil mount higher and as high as may be euen to Simon Magus him selfe Of whome Marcion and Manicheus and after long and honorable succession your Patriarches Luther and Caluine haue learned their goodly doctrine against free will. Yea to touche the very fundation and wellspring of this your new Gospell which altogether is grouÌ„ded vpon Iustification without good works in that also ye draw very nigh to the said Simon Magus In all this here is nothing els but the heaping vp of an impertinent sâ—…launderous and maliciouse rable partely of Heretikes partely of no Heretikes some of them falsely belied most of them falsely applied eyther they defending no such things or some of these us Heresies nor any of their Heresies mainteyned of vs. First for the Arianisme of Aerius with whom M. Stapleton beginneth would God the Papistes had not as much defaced the glory of Christ as did the Ariaus but he findeth no faulte with them therefore He vpbraydeth to vs thrée other pointes First that Aerius said there was no difference betweene Priest and Bishop and ye aâ—…e M. Stapleton how say we to him What soeuer we say to him we haue first to say to you that sauing the reuerence of your Priesthood there is no difference betweene you and a lier to obiect Aerius herein to vs Whereas ye know well inough our Church doth acknowledge in the ministerie a difference of Deacon and Elder from a Bishop although not according to your Popish orders For as neyther Epiphanius nor yet Augugustine quoted by you speaketh there of any sacrificing Priest so he neuer knewe any such Pontificall prelates as your Popishe Churche bréedeth And yet of those that were euen then in Epiphanius time and of their difference from the Elders or Priestes if ye know not how it came Hierome that liued in the same age will tell you or if ye haue not redde him your owne Canons will tell ye what he saithe I dem est ergo Presbyter qui Episcopus antequam Diabols studia c. An Elder or Priest therefore is the same that a Bishop and before that the studies of the Diuell were made in Religion and that the people saide I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas the Churches were gouerned by the common Counsell of the Elders but after that euery one did accompt those to be his and not to be Christes whome he had Baptized in all the worlde it was decreed that one of the Elders being chosen should be placed aboue the rest to whom all the care or charge of the Church should belong and the seede of scismes be taken away And a litle after Sicut ergo Presbyteri as therefore the Elders know that they by the custome of the church are subiect to him that is set ouer them so let the Bishops know that they more by custome than by the truth of the Lordes dispeÌ„sation are greater than the Elders This was the iudgement of the auncient Fathers yet were they no Arians nor Aerians therefore Yea Peter Lombarde the maister of the sentences citing also Isidorus to witnesse saith Apud vetereâ—… idem Episcopi Presbyterâ—… fuerunt Among the auncient Fathers Bishops and Elders were all one And againe alleaging the Apostle S. Paule he saith Qualis autem â–ª c. But what manner an Elder ought to be chosen the Apostle writing to Timothie declareth where by the name of Bishop he signifieth an Elder And anon after Cumque omnes and when all of them he meaneth his false seueÌ„ orders are spirituall and holy yet the Canons account only two orders to be excelling holie that is to say Deaconship and Eldership Bicause the primitiue Churche is redde to haue these alone and we haue the Apostles commaundement of these alone for the Apostles in euery Citie ordeined Bishops and Elders Neyther the Master only writeth thus but almost all your schoolemen yea though they be them selues of the contrarie opinion yet they write this was the auncient opinion And so Durandus though he make a difference betwéene the power of Iurisdiction the power of order yet he sheweth that
degenerate from true godlinesse into a kinde of Pharisaical righteousnesse or rather into a shew of righteousnesse the which is more cleare than that it can be denyed And afterwarde complayning further of the Popishe fastes and other abuses he sayth His similes sunt plerique nostrum c. The most of our men are like vnto these he meaneth the Phareseys that iudge they keepe the lawes then when they follow externally the letter of the law when they do nothing lesse as appeareth by them that are ydle on the feast dayes and giue themselues to ryot neglecting those thinges that are perteyning to the Sabaoth Of those also that thinke they fast when they eate but once a day but so daintilye and they so glutte themselues that they feele no hunger all day long On the contrarie they iudge not him to fast but to transgresse the commaundement that compelled by pouertie necessitie or labour doth eate but sparingly often tymes a day And a little after These thinges doe flatly fight with the doctrine of christ For first it impugneth the fayth secondly charitie which two Christ did chiefly touch For this cause therefore he doeth so often blame them But if we marke our selues we shall see our selues to be euen the most culpable in the same thinges For commonly our righteousnesse is set most in outwarde thinges I damne not outwarde thinges for who hauing his right wittes woulde or coulde so do But I say they suffice not to saluation And as I sayd a litle before of the precept of keeping the Sabaoth two things are commaunded First the bodies rest secondly and principally the rest of the old man from his workes so say I now euery precept requireth two thinges that is to wete the outwarde worke the heart that principally which Christ declared inough Math. 5. But wee neglecting that which is principally exacted do stick onely in the externall things The same may I say of the ecclesiastical coÌ„stitutions they giue not holinesse but shewe it further it as for ensample true religion consisteth not in this that thou shouldst weare this or that habit but in this that if thou be dead to the world thou liue to god to this point outward things do also not a litle further thee so the true worship of god is if that in spirite and truth thou worship the father But hereto the externall worship doth stirre thee vp The same also is to be said of fasting coÌ„fession prayer c. which chiefly coÌ„sist in the hart But we neglecting these things which are most necessarie do please our selues about the outwarde things onely Thus sayth Ferus of your Popishe fast conteyning farre worse errors than Aerius not putting of difference but belike he shal be an Aerian to The third thing M. St. obiecteth to vs out of Aerius is that he sayd the sacrifice for the dead was fruitlesse If you were not also dead and fruitlesse for any trouth in you Master Stapleton ye would neuer make such a lying sacrifice of your Priestes lippes for shame As though Aerius were counted an Heretike for denying the propiciatorie sacrifice as ye call it of the Masse which ye say is auaylable and meritorious not onely for the liuing but also for the deade to deliuer them from the fayned paynes of purgatorie Whereas if he had affirmed at that time any such thing he should himself haue bene counted a straunge and new monstrous Heretike For as then nor long after neither your pardons and indulgences nor your trentals and Diriges neyther your satissactions nor your oblations neither your Masse of Requiem nor your soule Priestes to sing or say it were extant or deuised Errours in déede there were about the dead both then and long before and suche as after gaue occasion to these your gainfull deuises And if Aerius had denyed such errours or such errours had then bene practised he had béene no Heretike for denying them but rather such Heretikes as had mainteyned them Which the godly fathers did not but acknowledged and knew of no other place eyther of ioy or torment after this lyfe but onely of heauen and hell A thirde place sayth Saint Augustine that writeth of thys Aerius Penitus ignoramus VVe are vtterly ignorant of nor we can finde any such in the scriptures And yet must Saint Augustine néedes haue knowne and acknowledged such a thirde place of deliueraunce of the deade if he had ment of prayer and oblation for theyr deliuerance as you do meane But he flatly denieth the knowing of any such place it followeth then that wryting thus of Aerius either he was in the same Heresie denying any place for the dead to be holpen out of and wherto then should such praier serue or oblation for deliuering them out of a place of torment since there were no such place of torment so he confirmed Aerius his saying or else he must runne yet into a greater error and absurditie that the deade being in one of these two places heauen or hell they were there holpen by such prayers and oblations But for those that are in hell the scripture is flatte their worme shall neuer die their fire is vnquenchable and euerlasting the riche Glutton coulde not get from thence nor finde any neuer so little ease from his torments Ab inferno nulla est redemptio From hell there is no redemption And this knewe saint Augustine well ynough that sayth Duae quippe habitationes vna in igne aeterno altera in regno aeterno There are two dwellings the one in fire eternall the other in the Kingdome eternall And againe Scitote vos c. Knowe ye that when the soule is parted froÌ„ the bodie streightwayes either it is for his good deedes placed in paradise or else certainly for his sinnes cast headlong into hell fire choose nowe that you like either to reioyce euerlastingly with the Saints oâ—… without ende to be tormented with the wicked This was the foule and great errour of Origene Saint Augustine was not infected therewith nor any godly father of his time muche lesse Epiphanius that was an earnest condemner of Origene Although the Papists be not cleare of this errour that say they haue deliuered and can deliuer soules euen out of hell as they tell howe Pope Oregorie deliuered Traian an infidell Prince and howe his mother condemned and tormented in hell fire for hir whoordome was deliuered from thence by him through a trentall of Masses Nowe as for the soules that on the other side be in heauen the other place I thinke Saint Augustine was neuer so farre ouershotte to say or thinke that such prayers coulde ease or deliuer them from paynes that were in the ioyes of heauen What then remayneth to thinke of saint August noting Aerius of Heresie herein We shall the better perceyue this if we marke the errours that many of the Grecians and Egiptians had
testimonie that all the shiftes of Proteus can not turne it away Iacobus de Uoragine sayth Secundo est regina coeli c. Secondly she is the Queene of heauen Ierem. 44. Let vs sacrifice to the queene of heauen and let vs powre out drinke offrings to hir and let vs make cakes as we and our fathers haue done and were filled with bread and it was well with vs and we sawe no euill but since that time that we haue ceassed to sacrifice to hir we wante all things we are consumed with famine and sworde But as it is sayde in the ecclesiasticall stories there was a threefolde distinction of the thinges that were offred to God for either they were an offering of beastes and that was called sacrifice or it was of a dry thing as of flowre bread or suche like and that was called oblation or else it was of moyst things that is to wit of wine or oyle and that was called drinke offeringes But this threefolde distinction is touched heere First the sacrifice when it is sayde let vs sacrifice the drinke offering when it is sayde let vs poure out drinke offeringes the oblation when it followeth let vs make cakes But to the queene of heauen we ought to sacrifice oure bodies by the mortifying of vices to poure out our moyst hartes by the compassion of teares and to exhibite cakes that is quiet consciences by our inwarde purification What greater sacrifice can be giuen than this M. Stap. euen to God can we do any more to him than as the Apostle exhorteth vs Obsecro vos c. I beseeche you brethren by the mercies of God that ye giue vp your bodies a liuing sacrifice holy and acceptable to God which is your reasonable worshippe of him And haue not you vnreasonably héere giuen all this worshippe to hir This passeth M. Stapl. the saying of a Masse and yet ye haue diuers Masses of hir also euen as well as ye had of the Trinitie or of the Holy Ghost wherof ye haue heard some of the Sequences But to sée this testimonie I omit here how iumpe ye play those Idolaters partes measuring religion by the belly and tell vs what trouble and scarcitie hathe bene since massing was lefte and what a plentifull worlde it was when the Masse was vp I note it chiefly to shewe both how wickedly and howe fondely ye alleage their sacrificing for the proofe of yours which is bothe condemned flatly of God by the Prophet Hieremie for he alleageth it not that we should followe it or confirme ought vpon it but abhorre it and also Epiphanius crieth out vpon it and vpon them that made an argument therfrom to defende their doings and calleth them wicked and yet do you as did they fette argumentes from thence to confirme your worshippe of hir and both of you making hir Quéene of heaueÌ„ But besides this worship of sacrifice as Epiphanius sayth also she is not Queene of heauen so he sayth God would not haue hir rule in the earth neither And you quite contrary call hir ruler lady Quéene Empresse therof And so it followeth euen in the next words of the author cited Tertiò est Domina mundi c. Thirdly she is the Queene of the world and therefore all other mediators set aside it shal be lawfull to appeale to hir as to the Lady and Empresse if any man be greeued of the diuell or of a tyrant or of the flesh or of the iustice of God. And thus ye are flat agaynst Epiphanius his saying béeing as directly agaynst you as agaynst those in his time Which proueth you all your shifts notwithstanding to be starke heretikes your selues in inuocation that obiect heresie in inuocation to vs Yea whether you be more blasphemous heretikes than euer they were or no let the reader iudge But froÌ„ what iudgement will not you appeale that will appeale euen froÌ„ the iust iudgement of God him selfe to the virgin Mary I can not read that thâ—…se heretikes in Epiphanius time durst euer attribute halfe so muche vnto hir Clere your selues M. S. of these heretical blasphemoê° inuocatioÌ„s theÌ„ proue vs heretikes for denying the same Nowe if your inuocation were grosse much more were your abuses in Reliques lights and ceremonies In which the chiefest part of your religion did consist as ye made the simple people beléeue First to your blessed reliques I answer that christiaÌ„ religioÌ„ nor the worship of god nor our beléefe nor our saluatioÌ„ nor remissioÌ„ of our sins nor any such vertue lieth in clouâ—…es in sticks in bones or stones Which if it did as your LegeÌ„ds tel how miraculously they wroght outward how vertuously inward to those that honored theÌ„ with crouching knéeling kissing â–ª or bearing theÌ„ about and hurt theÌ„ that coÌ„teÌ„ned theÌ„ then would they do much harme now to those that set not by theÌ„ We sée yet many of your blessed reliques extaÌ„t they neither do vs good nor harm They can neither blesse nor curse nor they worke any miracles now If ye say we want faith al consisted in the beléeuer ye make a plain witcherie of theÌ„ blasphemie to god But ye shew how ye abused those that beléeued you making them beléeue the Moone was made of a gréene chéese as they say but were those blessed relikes so good as the chéese paring Were they not such as euen Erasmus said Yea dothe this also pertayne to fayth to kisse a rotten peece of leather and filthy linnen rags c. Especially since it may be that the shoe which they force vs to kisse may not be S. Thomases but some butchers or some bawdes shoe Or as Chaucers pardoner bewrayed them euen at that time that they were in greatest price the olde rotten bones of some Iewes shâ—…pe Frequenter audiuiè doctis saythe Erasmus I haue often times herd say of learned men that went to Hierusalem and probable it is that the certayntie at this day is not knowne where Hierusalem in the olde tyme dyd stande For euen I see it doubted of the learned whether Rome should haue bene there or no where it is nowe shewed to bee Sainct Hierome that lyued in that countrey reckoning vp certayne things which at this day are shewed there to straungers sayth it is reported and they say so VVhat shall we thinke nowe after so many incursions so many mutations of humaine matters that in a thousand yeres and more are wont to chaunce of which sort Veronica the piller of Salomon the chaire of Peter and his sepulchre which are shewed at Rome are sayde to be Shal we now beléeue your LegeÌ„d better than Erasmus but that also is so vncertayne that ye can not tell whether ye haue many of the saincts right bodies or no so by your own false doctrine ye can not tell whether ye commit Idolatrie or no. One of your Churches sayth We haue such a saincts body scalp arme leg or hucklebone That is not
the B. for saying an Ecclesiasticall writer commendeth him for a Christian Emperour but what will you say to the same writer if he will call him the most Christian Emperour is not this warraÌ„t inough for the B he calleth him an exaÌ„ple a glasse or a spectacle for others What if not onely Nicephorus say the same a great deale more but Langus your catholike Clerke say euen the same also and commend him like wise for a paterne and mirror to the Emperour Ferdinande But Lorde what a stirre is here for that the B. spake of reforming religion to the purenesse thereof Here is the Bishop and Maister Foxe chalenged both of them for heretikes more than any of their felowes Here is Maister Stapleton disposed to haue his tongue roll as though it had not walked and run at large before And then sayth he that I may a little roll in your rayling Rhetoricke wherein ye vniustly rore out against M. Feckenham may I not for much better cause and grounde say to you than you did to him to make him a Donatist M. Horne Let your friends now weigh with aduisement what was the erroneous opinion of the Grecians against the holy ghost and let them compare your opinion and guilefull defences thereof to theirs and they must needes clap you on the backe and say to you Patrisas if there be any vpright iudgement in them deeming you so like your great graundsiers the Grecians as though they had spyt you out of their mouth Howe iustly or vniustly the Bishop proued Master Feck of set purpose to followe the steps of the Donatistes is alreadie declared at large and also howe teatly you haue excused him and brought him and your selfe further into the selfe same briers But howe vnfâ—…tlye and vniustly here ye woulde returne the Bishops words vpon himselfe chalenging him to denie as the Grecians did the procéeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not only manifest to the contraryâ—… to all that knowe and often heare in publike place the profession of his faith to argue you to be a wilfull malicious lier Abhominatio est domino labia mendacia lying lips are abhominable to the Lorde but also the Bishops wordsminister no occasion to gather any such surmise vpon Which sheweth you to be a captious wrangling sophister for the Bishop doth not flatly say he was such an one as reformed religion to the purenesse therof which you make him here to say but he sayd Nicephorus in his Preface before his ecclesiasticall storie doth compare Emanuel Paleologus the Emperour to Constantine for that he did so nearely imitate his duetifulnesse in ruling procuring and reforming religion to the purenesse thereof in whiche wordes the Bishoppe sayeth that Nicephorus commendeth him for this And this haue I proued at large that Nicephorus doth so which is the Bishoppes full discharge How be it this you wil not sée but make it the bishoppes flatte assertion Which yet notwithstanding were it so no man except hée were sette on gogge of pure malyce woulde wrest this sentence of the Bishoppe to anye other matter than to the present controuersie of the Princes dutie and dealing in ecclesiasticall matters and not to euery other opinion or vice which was either in the Emperor or in Nicephorus or else in al the Gretians And woulde ye but limit your selfe to the boundes of the question as the bishop doth ye coulde not haue made this false extravagant chalenge And ye shoulde haue séene that not onely the bishop had discharged himself but that so farre forth as this controuersie stretcheth both the Emperour Nicephorus and also all the Gretians whatsoeuer they were in other pointes in this controuersie of the Princes supreme gouernement it appeareth they were of a sounde and true opinion although you call it schismaticall and hereticall whatsoeuer be against the Primacie of your Pope but till you prooue it so to be no wyse man will be moued with your bare so calling it If you nowe denie that Nicephorus was of this opinion besides the Bishops allegations that haue prooued it sufficiently The same Preface of Nicephorus is full of other proues First Nicephorus dedicateth his ecclesiasticall hystorie to this Emperour not onely to haue his publike protection but also to haue the Emperors censure and iudgemeÌ„t whether it were sounde doctrine agréeable to Gods worde and méete to be set out among Christian people or no. Inprimis vero si quid minus c. But chiefly sayeth he if anything shoulde not haue bene declared of mee in this woorke that your myldenesse woulde pardon mee and by the sharpenesse of your iudgement you woulde clense my historie eyther by adding to or taking therefrom For whatsoeuer your iudgement shall more exactlye correct that shall bee accounted both to mee and to all other thankefull and sure Forbicause that of all other which haue bene vnto thee it hath chiefly happened by the readynesse and quickenesse of nature through the gift of God to perceyue and finde out suche thynges And bycause thon knowest both to reason and dispute wyth a iust moderation and also hast skill to expound diuine matters with feare And bicause thou canst excellently conceiue in thy minde and with an eloquent mouth declare that which thou thinkest good And moreouer canst in a maner giue such iudgement thereon that one thing may bee throughly knowne from the other Neyther is there any founde so malapert or rash that after thy correction and iudgement will abyde to set his hande vnto thy writing â–ª c. And the like sentence he hath towardes the ende of the Preface Thus besides his authoritie such an excellent iudgement in determining and deciding diuine and ecclesiasticall matters Nicephorus ascribeth to this Prince and commendeth him for euen as you woulde do to the Pope or any of your most reuerend holy fathers All which you cleane denie to Princes to haue any medling knowledge iudgement or determination in them but rather commende Princes for ignorance and woulde haue them onely meddle with iudging mereâ—…cuill matters But Nicephorus euen where the Bishop left in citing his allegations which were sufficient to any man except to such a brabler as you sayth to the Emperour Moreouer thou hast with a feruent order made more sincere and purer than golde the priestly vnction which sounded of a certaine corruption And also both by setting out a law and thy letters thou hast taught a continencie of maners and contempt of money by meanes whereof the priestly ministery of the common weale is become holy the which in former tymes by little and little through a corruption of discipline and maners was defiled and depraued And here noteth Langus in the Margin Reformatiâ—… Ecclesiae The reformation of the Church And thou conceyuing alwayes some more notable matter hast adorned the forme and state and Image of the Church most beautifully polishing it vnto the primitiue example These things