the which sentence S. Chrysostome agreeth well saying that the Councell maye ordeine nothing against the word of God for what so euer Hom. de perfect Euang is ordayned against the holy Scripture is errour ¶ Of the true Councels vvhich do excell al the reste in authority ar the rule by the which al the rest must be examined T. THose which desire a Councell shoulde consider in the same what hath bene ordained by that auncient Councells by the holy Scriptures to the end that men may know which is the true doctrine of the Church which men oughte to embrace D. We haue very good meane to know it and not to tarye at all for a Councell For among al the Councells there are chieflye two of the authoritie that all the reast are nothing in comparison of them by whom all the reast must be measured whose decrees are so plaine that there is no doubt in them but that euery man that wil be gouerned by them may vnderstand them as it is nedefull for al those that will be saued T. I did thinke there had bene foure generall Councells to witte that of Nice of Constantinople of Ephese and of Chalcedone the which S. Gregory confesseth to receaue allowe and honour as he doth the foure bookes of the holy Grego iâ— Registr diâ—inc 5 Gospell D. I do also confesse that these foure were that principall of all those that were holden sythe the Apostles time but it semeth to me that Gregorye doth geue vnto theÌ„ more authoritie then he ought to do in comparing them to the bookes of the foure Euangelistes But what soeuer they be the two of the which I speake are yet muche more auncient then are those of far greater authoritie for God himselfe in proper person did there preside did speake with his own mouth dyd there shew his presence in great maiestie and by great and excellent myracles tokens T. In what place and at what time were these Councells holden D. The first was holden in the Mount Synai in the beginning of the third moneth after that God had brought the people of Israell forth of the land of Egipt The other was holden in the country of Iewry namely in the Mount Sion in the Citie of Ierusalem at that tyme that our Lorde Iesus Christ was seene vppon earth and that he did accompanie among men in the forme of man but they were called and assembled by other meane then the Councells of the Papistes holden in other sorte ¶ Of the authoritie of the princes and of the Popes concerning the Councells and of the Popes tyrannie in that behalfe and vvhat aduauntage he hath at this present T. SEing we are happened vppon this matter of calling holding of Councells I would be verye glad if that thou wouldest declare vnto me some little peece of the order that the papistes do obserue in holding of Councells to the end that I might the more easely vnderstand if we should haue as small hope in theÌ„ as thou hast D. Thou doest aske of me a verye hard thing For how should I declare to thée that order of those which haue no order But the trouth is that thou makest yâ— matter somewhat the more easye in that that thou requiresâ— of me but a litle But yet I know not where to finde yâ— litle yâ— thou doest aske of me if it be true which I haue heard of meÌ„ worthy of fayth which haue bene present haue seene yâ— experience of it Thou shouldest haue spoken a greate deale more aptly if thou haddest required me to declare vnto thee the disorder the which alwaies they cloke in such sort that it shall seeme in dede to those that shall beholde the manner of their proceding that they wil obserue the order that hath bene vsed in the auncient Councells sauing that the Popes do alwayes seke to encroche not only vpoÌ„ the authoritie of Emperors kings Christian princes more then the auncient bishops did but also vpoÌ„ the word of god the Church T. In what sort D. We haue alreadie shewed how the auncient Emperours kings Christian princes did accustom to assemble the CouÌ„cells not alwayes by tirannie but by good accorde agrement with the good Bishops the true pastors of the Church now the Popes do not onely take vnto them authoritie ouer Emperours kings christian princes such as in time passed they were wonte to haue ouer the Popes the other Byshops But also wheÌ„ they haue had the meanes They haue caused Councels to be holdeÌ„ of their own authoritie in despite of the Emperors princes â–ª wheÌ„ they did know that they coulde not haue the Emperours and princes at their deuotion as we haue alreadye shewed by example But now in these daies because that the greatest number and the greatest princes of Christendome are much at the deuotion of the Pope they do more easely agree together in this poynt theÌ„ those which are of contrarye religion â–ª if there be any other which do not well agree with him he maketh no great accompt of them but estemeth them vnworthye of his Councell T. Hath he not reason so to do ¶ Of the manner of the proceeding of the Papistes in their Councels and of their presidentes and of the princes Ambassadours that are sent thither and of their instructions and of the practise of the Pope and his and of the disputations that they haue there D. THe Councell being appoynted and called if the Pope the Emperour the Kinges and the Christian princes be not there present they haue then there their Ambassadours Legates to represent their persons they haue also their instructions to lead them according to that yâ— euery of theÌ„ hath in charge if that Pope be not present to preside then his Legates do preside These worthy meÌ„ before they come thither do first aske as it is mete for such Prophets as they ar at the mouth not of the soueraign god but of the Pope their God vpon earth to vnderstand of him how he will haue theÌ„ to conclude in the Councel For seing that he is God he hath also his holy spirite agreable to his deitie And when they are in this sort well instructed of that will of their God theÌ„ go they on inspired with his sprite do put forth to the Councel those articles which they haue in charge from their God to propone whose kingdooÌ„ glory they haue chiefly in recoÌ„meÌ„da cioÌ„ WheÌ„ this is don theÌ„ they dispute of theÌ„ in soÌ„e gret haul and ther those that wil dispute are heard not to find out therby the truth to conclude accordyng to the same but to make a countenance to hold some forme of a lawfull CouÌ„cel in the which it was accustomed to geue audience to all that woulde come as wel of that laitie as of meÌ„ of the church for the coÌ„clusioÌ„ that shall be made is already determined in the secret Councell
principall matters that therin are handled or entreated of ⧠The second Dialogue intituled the waiting for the Councell or the Newtralles Of the reasōs vvhich cause many to desire vvait for a Councel and of the trouble that the difference vvhich is in Christendome in matters of Religion doth bryng to simple and ignoraunt consciences Daniel Timothe D. THou doost well remēber where we left as touchyng those that wayt for a Councell T. Yea in dede D. Will these men tary to beleue in God to serue him and to enquire of his will vntill the tyme that the Councell hath ben holden and that it hath determined what order of lyfe we should folowe T. It semeth that these mē take their foundation of that which thou hast said that if they should serue God truly it were first requisite to be well instructed and assured of his will D. Wherfore do they not then forthwith and withall diligence enquire therof why do they then tary for a Councell T. Bycause they say that in so great diuersitie of opinions as at this present day is in Christendome in matters of Religion they know not whiche to folow in surety For they see that some teache after one sort the others after an other that ther is often tymes as great contrarietie of opinions as betwene white and blacke and betwene fire and water That whiche one aloweth an other disaloweth that whiche one holdeth for Christiā doctrine and for true seruice of God an other condempneth it as heresie or els as superstition hypocrisie Idolatrie and Apostasie And besides this ther are of both sides personnages of great apparance great vnderstanding and great authoritie accordyng to the iudgement of the worlde notwithstandyng the multitude is farre greater of the one side then of the other men heare their discourses men read their writtinges bookes there are goodly reasons of both partes which euery of them endeuoureth to proue and confirme by the holy Scriptures and by all meanes possible In this cause what shal a poore man do whiche feareth to offend God and hath a good desire to serue him accordyng to his wil but he may not wel attain to the knowlege therof bicause that which the one saieth is the wil of God the other sayth it is not the will of God ¶ Hovve that the difference that is in Christendome in matters of Religion should not stay men from the diligent enquirie of the vvyl of GOD but shoulde rather prouoke them thereunto T. I Confesse that these differences which are in Christendome engender great trouble in the poore consciences of many but that ought not at all to let them to enquire by all meanes possible of the will of God and to employe thē selues with al spede possible to serue him but they should the more earnestly be moued and prouoked to do it to ridde them selues with as much speede as they myght out of suche troubles For why least they tary in it if they haue any feare of God in what trouble shall they lyue and what quyetnes maye they euer haue in theyr consciences I for my parte shoulde thincke that I were in hell if I shoulde longe lyue in suche estate without hauynge some thynge certayne and resolued in my mynde whereunto I myght assuredlye staye T. For thys they require a Councell for they thincke there wil bee there men of greater iudgement then they are by whose meanes the matter shall be so debated and examined that there shall bee a generall and a sure determination throughe the which euery man may be out of scrupule and doubte and may know wherunto to trust D. It semeth vnto me that their hope is very slender if they haue no better hope then this I maye not deny but their desire is good we all ought to desire the same if there were any hope to se it come to passe that with spede for the soner it were that better bycause it is much more daūgerous to delay or defer the medicyning of the soule thē of the body for if the medicine of the body come not in tyme to hym that is sicke that sicke person is not in daūger but onely of his bodely life but if the medicine of y◠soule be to long deferred ther is daūger of eternall death wherfore I do greatly feare that manye doo perish in tarying for those medicines T. There is much to be feared and also to be doubted in this matter ¶ VVhat profite the Churche of God may receaue of Councelles and of theyr issue D. THe Sinodes lawfull Coūcels is one of the best remedies that mē may haue to take away cōtrouersies in religiō it is the remedi wherunto in like cases that Apostles their true successors al that aūciēt church haue oftētimes had their recourse for albeit that the Coūcels haue no authority nor power to giue vnto the churche any newe doctrine nor yet to forge ani new articles of faith but only to hold maintain y◠doctrine which is reueled by the holy Scriptures yet notwithstāding they serue to great purpose in so much that they be as publike witnesses vnto it to succor the infirmitie of the simple weake also such as shall come after vs by the confessiō which is made of the same by thē by the publike testificatiō y◠there is declared by the perpetual cōsent of the Church of the doctrine of the Prophetes Apostles But although the Councels be ordeyned to this end that the aūciēts haue had more rule of thē selues better meanes much more meete for such a purpose then we haue at this presēt yet notwithstāding they could neuer obtaine that in their Coūcels which they desired And such vntowardnes was there that they did alway not onely not apease the differences abolish scismes heresies which troubled the Church but oftētimes euē there right many new did spring haue ben afterward frō tyme to tyme encreased if it were nedefull to proue it by exāples it were easy to do but we will not now enter into such matter I will cōtent me for this time to alledge onely touching this matter that testimonie the Gregory Nazianzen which was Master to S. Hierom did giue writting to Procopius of the Coūcels of his tyme whiche were nothyng so corrupted as ar those of our time if I must nedes sayth he write the truth I haue determined to refuse al the Coūcels of Bishops For I haue foūd the issue of no one Synode good or rather that they haue more encreased the euil then quenched it Here is the iudgemēt of Nazianzene touching this matter Which semeth to me somethynge harde for it can not bee denyed that some of the auncient Councels haue greatly profited vnto Christianitie notwithstandynge that the peruersitie of the wicked hath alwaye hindered that the frute and issue hath not ben such as was to be desired yet notwithstandyng Nazianzene hath not gyuen iudgement of the Councels
it hath of the Iewes and Paganes And more ouer it cōmeth very aptely to passe that these forgers of Interim haue made him a name of an aduerbe for as an aduerbe is a woorde ioyned to a verbe euen so the doctrine of the Interim is an adiunction to the worde of God not to opē and declare it as the aduerbe doth the Verbe but to darken and corrupte it T. It is then lyke to the glose of Orleance which marreth the text D. It is a very daungerous glose and seing then it is an aduerbe and that it signifieth in the meane time or whilest or vntill if they will interprete that woorde in the meane time euen as thou hast sayd we maye also take him in this signification In the meane tyme we die and shall be in daunger of going to hell In the meane tyme Antichrist shall reigne and the Gospell shall bee persecuted In the meane tyme they shall seeke all the meanes possible to suppresse and banyshe the worde of God and more strongly to establyshe the siege of Antichrist And to be shorte put to it all that euer thou wilte and al the euill that may happen in the worlde in the meane time whilest or vntyll will receaue it all ¶ VVhat profitte they vvhich haue beene instructed in the vvorde of God may receaue by the Councells and vvhat vertue and authoritie they haue to bring men to the fayth T. I Agree well with that that thou haste sayd but if there be a Councell holden and if it serue nothing at all for such as shall dye looking for it yet notwithstanding it shall profitte such as may liue vnto it D. And yet shalt thou not finde there by that meane all that y◠thou thinkest to fynde for if one be holden either it wil conclude for Iesus Christ or against Iesus Christ If they doe conclude for Iesus Christ and I haue bene well instructed in the word of God before hand it shall not hurte me at all that I was instructed before hand It hindreth not the cōmoditie that I maye receaue of the Councell but doth encrease it the more for I shall be so much the more glad whē I shall see that doctrine approued wherin I haue alreadye bene resolued and haue beleued it not onely because it is approued by the Councel and by men but for that it is the pure worde of God and that it alloweth it selfe and that the holy Ghost beareth me witnesse If I haue not alreadie beene instructed nor resolued either I wil credite the determination which shal haue bene made by the Councell or ells I wil not credite it For it is not a thinge that of necessitie muste betyde that euery man must beleue the determination of the Councels as soone as they haue concluded although the Councell were lawfull For it is not in the power of men which shall hold it to make all that please them to beleue it It is a worke that is onely proper to God which geueth fayth And to seke to make men beleue of force that may not be for fayth may not be inforced Wherfore if I make it seme that I do beleue it and do not beleue it I shall then be an hypocrite if I do beleue it it is greatly to be feared least that I do beleue onely vpon the credite of others being moued by the authoritie of mē rather thē by the true perswasiō of the word and of the spirite of God And so my fayth shall be builded vpon men and vpon their opinions not vpon God and his worde It shall be then no fayth but onely an opinion readie to chaunge as men shall chaunge T. It shall be as firme as shall the foundation whereupon it shall bee builded ¶ Hovv vve maye not bee the disciples of men but of Iesus Christ hovv that the vvord of god taketh not his authoritie of the church but the church taketh hys of the vvorde of God D. NOwe our Lorde Iesus Christ willeth that we be his Disciples and not the disciples of men that we haue none other maister but he for it is onely he that is gone Math. xxiii forth from the bosome of the father and that hath fullye reueled vnto vs the fathers will and all that he hath heard of him as witnesseth Saint Iohn It is very he that hath geuen vs the whole summe of the articles of our Christian fayth Iohn ii and of that doctrine we muste needes holde vnto the which it is not lawfull for anye man to adde ne yet Deut. 11. to take awaye anye thinge from it It is onely he that hath broughte vs the truth and that doctrine whiche of it selfe is naturallye certaine and immutable and of hys own nature can be none other whether men do alowe it or disalowe it It is the truth and that onely doctrine vpō the which the Church may surely dwel which she may not vpō the natural wit of mā how excellent so euer it be ne yet vpō vsage and custom how auncient so euer it be It is a truthe a doctrine not certayn and worthy to be receiued because the Church men do alow it but for that it is so of his own nature can be none other The Church doth approue it receiueth it and may neither reproue it ne yet reiect it if it be the true Church of Iesus Christ In like maner the Synagoge of Satan may nether approue ne yet receiue it in any wyse For euen as the Synagoge of Satan cā not acknowledge it but accōpteth it alway for a straunger for that she Iohn 8. is the wyfe daughter of the deuil which is the father of lies the enemy of al truth euen so by the contrary it is impossible that the true Church of Iesus Christ should not alway acknowledge it euen as the daughter doth know her mother for that she is the daughter of God which is the truth it selfe the daughter I say begotten of the incorruptible sede of his worde and the wife of Iesus which is the way the truth i. Pet. ◠Ephe. v Iohn xvi Iohn x lyfe and he by whom this truth of God is manifested and declared vnto vs. It is that sheepe that heareth the voyce of his shepeheard followeth it not the voyce of the straunger Thē the word of God receaueth not that authoritie that it hath of the church but the church receaueth her authoritie of it In so much as shew is signed and marked with the seale therof For she is to be compared to a peece of paper or parchment to the waxe which geue not authoritie to the writing seales that are written and imprinted in them but do receiue their authoritie of them are made authentike by their authoritie by the authoritie of the prince vnto whom the seale appertayneth for that he hath allowed it by his authoritie Wherefore that doctrine which of hys nature is
would maintayne by their Councells to put them selues in order to serue and obeye the liuing God and Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. And without seking proofe further of to shewe by the same what hope men maye haue of their obey saunce towardes the determinations of a good Christian Councell there needeth no more but to beholde howe they doe endeuour them selues at thys present and heretofore haue done to obserue the statutes and ordinaunces of the auncient Councels of the which they do so much glorify yea euen of very those which wholy haue bene made for their purpose For there is no one thing which is concluded in thē according to the word of God but that they thē selues do first transgresse it and doe obserue not so much as one point therof vnlesse it be such as are cleane contrary to the word of God For euen as they make lawes at their pleasure so may they dispense with them at their pleasure for so muche as they are Gods vppon earth And therefore doe feare neyther GOD nor man what so euer he bee but doe permitte to them selues all that whiche their earthlye God and Sathan the God and prince of this worlde doth permitte vnto them now if it be hard to amend and frame 2. Cori 3. Ioh. 1◠14. that wicked by that meane of a good Councell it shal thē be more harde to shutte vp close that mouthes by the meanes of a wicked Councell for the children of God who can not be ouercome euen by very death but in dying do ouercome I doe saye it shall be no lesse difficile to abolyshe and wype oute truth which is the daughter of the inuincible and immortall God ¶ VVhat fruite the Church maye receaue of lavvfull Councells and vvhat mixture there is in her of good and bad and vvhat is her office tovvarde the one and the other T. I Do willingly consent agree to all that thou sayest but how so euer it be the auncient Councells haue not yet bene without fruite for at the least they haue geuen some repose to the church for a certayne tyme and haue armed the faythfull against the heretiques as we doe see in Lib. 7. cont Donat. Lib. 1. cont Donat. Saint Augustine for he doth arme himself against the Donatistes with the vnion of the holy vniuersall church and of the authoritie of the full Councell as with a buckler thinking that the full and lawfull Councell is the consent of the whole church I do not denye but what so euer Councell is holden there may yet continue still in the church many hipocrites which will sceme to agree with it and yet for all that in the meane tyme they will nourishe their poyson in their hartes But the church leaueth such to the iudgement Matth. xiii of God For euen as our Lorde Iesus Christ doth playnlye shewe it in his parables she can not be without hypocrites so long as she shall continue vpō this earth vpon the which she can not be so pure but that she shall alwayes be myxed with good euill But it is inough for the church to teach simplye and plainly that which euery man is bound to beleue and then the true children of the church do beleue simplye and constantly that which their mother teacheth them and that vnfaynedly and obey her without any gayne saying The hipocrites which are not her lawfull children but misbegotten and bastardes maye well through their false shewe deceiue and abuse men but not God they may deceiue the espouse but not the bridegrome wherfore she holdeth her well contented when she hath done that which she is able to do to wit to teache the true doctrine to correcte by discipline such as be faultie to the ende that she may bryng them into the right way and that she may entertaine them euery one in his place and vocation or els if they be so peruerse wicked and incorrigible that they will not chaunge theyr oppinions and if they can do no good with such kind of men yet will they endeuour them selues at the least so well to prouide for others that they shall not be able to hurt them nor to trouble their peace and vnion in the mean time she leaueth the iudgemēt of the hart to god and it is sufficient for her to entertaine her shepe and lambes in peace and to let the wolfes that they scatter not the flocke ¶ VVhat prayse is due to good princes Magistrates which employ them selues in the reformation of the Church and vvhat fruite it getteth by their labor and office as vvell for the cause of the faithfull as of the hypocrites and of the chaunges that happen in Religion accordyng to the princes that raygne T. I Say not the contrarie or otherwise when the Churche is troubled and scattered we should reiect the meanes whiche God hath gyuen to repayre it whiche we may not do wtout tēpting of God Wherfore I do very wel alow the goodwil and diligence of such as trauail faithfully in the procuring of a lawful Councel or Synodes such as are requisite in the Churche of God and I Iudge those princes worthy of great prayse which accordyng to the example of Ezechias ii Reg. xviii 22. 23 2. Chr. 29. 34. Ezech. iii. and Iosias do endeuour them selues to reforme those Churches that ar within their liberties and countreys For allbeit that many dwell still in their olde skins yet do they their duety for their part They glorifie in their offices they do assure entertayne the good in peace They are a means to make strong those that are weake and do discharge their soules from the bloud of such as perishe throughe their own default and not in that that they haue not done their duety And therfore I deny not but that of lawful Councels there commeth often tymes great profite for a certaine tyme for the pollice and outward peace of the Church but I say that they ar not sufficient thorowly to appease the troubles that are in Christendome and to edifie perfectly the inwarde man to quiet the conscience in deede and to gyue it true quietnes and assuraunce if nothyng els They are vnto the wicked as the authoritie of the sword and of the Magistrate may wel stay their hands feet but they cā not alter nor chaūge Prou. 10 their heartes whiche onely God hath in his hād euen as the diuision of waters and enclineth them to what part he wil. We haue the example hereof very playne in Ezechias and Iosias of whom we haue already spokē whilest these good kynges lyued all errors abuses Idolatries and superstitions were abolished outwardly and put away from among the people of God and the Churche was well reformed but it was not clearely plucked out of the harts of them all but was secretly nourished vnto that tyme that occasion was offred to declare them selues as experience doth witnesse For as soone as they had chaūged
the true seruauntes of God ¶ Of the vveakenesses that haue bene founde at the Councell of Nice in them that vvere there gathered and assembled and vvhat holy and excellent personages there vvere present at the same T. THou speakest as yet but in generall I praye thee let vs now come to particular examples D. We spake lastly of the Councell of Nice but thinkest thou that all the decrees of the same be as wel founded vpon the holy Scriptures as were the disputations arrestes and determinations which were there agreed vpon against the Arrians T. I haue no occasion to doubt it if I see not the contrarye D. If all those which are named vnto it were there determined there are some touching the discipline of the Church very supersticious curious and an other sorte rigorous and curious inough Moreouer I see no greate apparence in that which forbiddeth men to knele when they praye on the Sondaies and on the day of Pentecoste I leaue that whereof Gracian maketh mencion vnder the same title concerning the consecratioÌ„ of temples or churches because it is to beastly and to vnworthy of such a Councell On the other part how much wanted it that it was not forbidden the ministers of the church to vse their lawfull wiues yea by the common consent of all suche as dyd there assiste directlye agaynst the worde of God if one Paphnutius had not had more of the spirite of God in that behalfe then all Hist trip li. 2. c. 13. 14. Euseb hist ecâ—l li 10. â— the reste of the Councell who letted that determination by the very worde of God Moreouer in the same Councel was not the Emperour Constantine greatly ashamed to heare the Bishops and pastours of the church which were men so greatly estemed for their doctrine and holynes of life so to accuse the one the other being personages of so greate honestie and to contend and outrage one an other as it had bene a number of women that had chidden Was he not constrained to caste all their accusations and libells of euil report which they had prepared the one against the other in to the fire For he well vnderstoode that these affections and particular causes which they had one agaynste an other shoulde hinder the principal causes for the which they were assembled For many of them were more affectionate to their particular causes then to the common cause and desired more theyr victorie then that of the truth There were there three hundred and threscore Byshops by accompte in that Councell the flower of Christendome amonge whom was thys Paphnutius a Byshop of Egipte of whom wee haue alreadye spoken a very man of God who had endured muche for the truth and had the gifte of myracle Spiridion Bishop of Cypre who was a very excellent personnage there was in lyke sorte present Paule Neocharien Martyr who had both hys handes burnte in the persecution of Maximian and many other suche lyke who had the gifte of miracle and had behaued them selues valiauntly and constauntly in that persecution if then the imperfections weakenesses and affections wer so great among the Byshoppes in suche a companie that Constantine was all amased and ashamed to see at suche a tyme that so worthy personnages shoulde shewe them selues in suche sorte men and so subiecte to their affections let vs then thincke what myght bee in our tyme and what assistaunce of the holy Ghost wee may hope for in suche a companie as shall there assemble T. It is easie to discerne ¶ Of the greate contearieties discordes dissentioÌ„s that haue ben in many of the auncient Councels betvvene the Byshops and the Ministers of the Churche D. LEt vs procede and for greater proofe of that whiche we haue said let men see in the hystories of the Church what the partialities the bandes and dissentions of the Bishops haue done in the Councels holden in Tyr in Ierusalem in Antioche in Sirmie and at Constantinople Moreouer Sozo 2 c 25 hist tri li 1. 2. 33. lib 2 c. 10. c. 30. lib. 4. c. 10 Rut 1. c. 28 hist Tri. lib 9. c 12. Theâ—do â— c. â— lib. 4 c. 24. lib 5 howe hath the Councell of Alexandrie troubled that of Calcedonie and the Councell of Antioche that of Ephesus There arose so great trouble in Christendome and it was so denided and was so full of sectes Scismes heresies and humane affections that if men shoulde haue gyuen more place to the fauour of Emperors kinges and princes to the assembles of Popes and Bishops to the authoritie of Councels to the arte and eloquence of Orators to the subtilitie vnderstandyng of Philosophers theÌ„ to the truth it had ben nedefull to haue abrogated cassed vndone and abolished that whiche had ben agreed determined and hollyly confessed for Christe and for the Christian doctrine in the Councels of Nice Millane Sardice Corduba and such like many other Councels whiche were holden after them would haue ouerthroweÌ„ all that euer was determined and agreed vpon in them which had not much lesse apparence then the others Yf they had not so much or more And the matters wherof the differences did growe were of no small importaunce For there was question of the diuinitie of Christ agaynst Hist Tri. li. 2. c. 20. Soz. 3. the Arrians for the whiche the Bishops of the East and Weast did celebrate holde Councels the one against the other the one sorte condemnyng the cause and doctrine of the Arrians the other sorte approuyng and maintaynyng the same ¶ Of the contradiction of the Popes and of their Decrees and Ordinaunces the one sorte contrarie to the other T. THou doest declare vnto me things very vnpleasaunt and offensiue to those that are Christians D. There is yet much more as well of Councels as of Popes whiche will be the presidentes of them For how many Popes haue there bene that haue condempned and abolished that which their predecessors haue established ordained What a noÌ„ber hath there ben of them whiche haue euen as the auncieÌ„t Romaine Emperors did who when they possessed the Empire after the decease of their predecessors did abrogate and make of none effect all that euer their predecessors had established and ordeyned Behold one Pope shall make lawes and shall cause a Councell to be holden for his purpose in the which he will ordaine what so euer shall please him and shall commaunde it vnder payne of excommunication and euerlasting cursing that the same shal be kept and obserued among the Christian people And after him there shal come an other whiche shall abolishe all that and shall do cleane contrarie he shall excommunicate and curse all those that will do that whiche before was commaunded vnder payne of excommunication and dampnation T. Yf it be so the Christian people can not chuse but stand alwayes a cursed D. It is certaine For it is an impossibilitie to obserue and kepe their Decrees and ordinaunces without
therfore mē may not rashlye iudge and say that the Councells are contrary the one sort to the other although that in thinges concerning the policie of the church more then the fayth the one hath oftentimes chaunged that the other hath decreed For the lawfull generall Councells were neuer contrarye the one to the other in anye peece of the substaunce of our fayth which is necessarye to our saluation And in this sort muste it be vnderstoode that S. Augustine hath sayd The former Councells haue bene amended August Tom. 7. de baptis cont donatist li. ◠cap 3 by the latter and that the ordinaunces and decrees of prouinciall Councells ought to geue place to those of greater Councells but the Canonicall Scripture doth geue place to none And as touching the Councell of Carthage it was no generall but a particuler Councell as Saint Augustine proueth agaynst the Donatystes And in deede they denye not but that particular Councells may erre and that they ought to be reformed by the generall as it is already declared ¶ Of the errours and abuses that haue beene brought into the church vvhat meane there ought to be had for the correction and amendment of such Councells vvhen nede shall requyre D. THen they do confesse at the least that the prouinciall Councells may erre yea euen those in the which the most wyse and holy men that were in the worlde since the Apostles tyme haue bene present For S. Cyprian was one Euseb 7. 5. cap of the best learned men that hath beene in the church since that tyme and was of such zeale towards the word of God and his church that he dyed a martyr for the truth of Iesus Christ And then iudge you that if a Councell in the which such personages were might erre what we may thinke of many Idolatries and supersticions and of many vaine ceremonies tradicions and abuses that haue bene sowed in the church not by Councells and particular Synodes onely but by particuler men who haue charged the church to what so euer pleased them For one hooded Monke or Fryer had beene sufficient to haue inuented a thousand maner of doinges cleane contrarye to the Scriptures and forthwith they shoulde haue beene put in vse and allowed as if they had beene articles of the fayth If it were lawfull then to chaunge those same verye thinges which the generall and lawfull Councells had decreed concerning the policie and discipline of the Church as touching their maners according to the nedefulnes of the circumstaunces and the capacitie of men of places and tymes it oughte then to bee no lesse lawfull to those vnto whom God hath geuē the knowledge of hys worde to condempne and abolyshe so many abuses innumerable errours which by so many meanes and wronge waies without order or ecclesiastike discipline haue beene sowed in the Church of the Lord and are so intollerable that the very greatest enemyes of veritye euen the Romaine Antichrist haue beene constrayned to confesse it And without going any further to proue it dyd not the Pope Adrian confesse not manye yeares since that there were many enormities and inconueniences in the Romish seate and many abuses offences and disorders in the gouernment of the Church And beside thys what confession dyd the Legates and oratours of the Pope Paule deceased make at the Councell of Trent of the estate of their church But what wilte thou saye if I doe proue by S. Augustine that not onely the prouincial and nationall Councels may be corrected by the greate and generall Councels but also euen they them selues maye bee corrected the one by the others the fyrst by the laste T. If it be so our aduersaries shoulde not then thinke it straunge if we would not wholly dwell vppon the authoritie of their Councells D. That same doth playnlye appeare by his writinges wherevpon he declareth when that same ought to be done and by what meane To witte that when by experience of thinges that which was secret is opened and that which was hidden is knowen without any puffing vp in pryde full of sacrilege without any swollen arrogancie withoute any contention and enuye but with holy humilitie with the vniuersall Christiā peace he speaketh here generally of all Councells and of all that euer may be determined in them ¶ Of those that vvayte vpon the Prelates of the Church and vvoulde haue them to correcte the abuses that therein are and vvhat libertye euery man hadde to sovve and bryng them into the Church and vvhat agreement difference there is betvvene the auncient Heathen Emperours and the Popes and their Councells and assemblyes T. THey doe not vtterly denye but that there are some abuses and errours in the Church but they say that it appertayneth not to euery man to reforme them but that the charge thereof belongeth to the prelates of the Church vnto whom GOD hath geuen it Wherfore they thinke meete to haue a generall Councell to determyne what thynges shoulde bee obserued and what shoulde bee abolyshed before that any thyng shoulde be chaunged or altered D. The Seducers and false Prophets which filled the church with errours dyd not tarye a generall Councell to poure out their poyson and to corrupte the Church of the Lorde but we muste tarrye for a Councell to pourge it and in the meane tyme the poore soules shall goe to the deuill Muste we put the matter in question in a Councell whether we ought to beleue that Iesus Christ is God and the verye Sonne of God and our onely Sauiour and redeemer Shall we doe as dyd the Emperour Tiberius who put the matter in deliberaion in the Councell at Rome with the prerogatiue of his voyce and the testimonye of hys consent whether Christ shoulde bee accepted and receaued amongest the Gods or no Which thing he did for that as Tertullian witnesseth that the Romaines had a very auncient lawe by the which it was ordayned that there should Apolo 5. bee no God canonized by the Emperours and that none shoulde be so receaued vnlesse he were allowed and confirmed by the Councell For thys cause Iesus Christ was not receaued for a God because it pleased not the Councell albeit that the Emperour was of contrarye opinion T. Then had not the Emperour so great authoritie in the Councell at Rome ne yet in hys Empyre as the Pope will chalenge ouer the Councells ouer the whole church ouer al Christendom yea and ouer the word of god it self D. It is true and therefore I feare greatlye that if Iesus Christ were now to be receaued he shoulde be as farre of from being receaued at the Councells in the which thys Romaine Antichrist doth preside as he was then at that Councell of Rome For sithe they doe reiecte and disalowe hys doctrine they do sufficiently declare what opinion they haue of him T. It can not be better knowen by any thing then by that for that is a profe most sure ¶ Of the thinges vuhich of them selues
with Ma 18. 28 you to the end of the worlde if he promes to be in the myddest of two or three by more apparant reason ought we to beleue that he is in the middest of a whole Councel D. But we must note vpon what conditions he promiseth to bee among them First he sayth that if we do agree together vpō the earth if we be of one accorde of one consent of one hart and of one spirite if we be carefull to kepe vnitie of spirite throughe the band of peace if we be one body and one spirite as we ar called into one hope of our vocation as there Eph. 4. is one Lord one fayth and one Baptisme one God and father of al. And besides this if we be gathered together in his name to wit in his vertue and force and not in the vertue and power of mē for his honor and glori and not for ours neither yet for our ambitiō for the edificatiō of his Churche and the health of poore soules not for our profite aduaūcement but wishing veritie to haue the victorie and not we now let vs see if it be easie to obserue all these condicions what hope we may haue in our tyme of a Councell that shall obserue all these pointes without the whiche in dede he can not be called a Councell but rather a Synagoge of Sathā and can bring no commoditie to Christendome but rather hurte and destruction how is it possible to haue him such an one as he ought to be consideryng that those whiche should procure it feare nothyng more then to haue a Councel such an one as he ought to be T. It is easie to iudge by that that hath ben already sayd ¶ Hovve that the holy Ghost is neither subiect nor bounde to any kinde of person or estate D. THere is yet one thyng more very well worthy to bee noted whiche is that our Lord Iesus Christe did not say when a generall Councell shal be gathered together or all the estates of Christendome or the Pope the Cardinals and Bishops or els a great assemble shall be had I will be in the middest of them but he sayd he would be in the middest of them yea although they wer but two or three so that they were gathered together in his name In the whiche he doth playnly declare that he will be bounde neither to menne yet to estates neither yet to the multitude but how smal so euer the nomber be of what estate so euer the men be he will be in the middest of them prouided that they come together as they ought to do For all though the promesse of Iesus Christ be made to his whole Churche yet doth it appartaine in no wise to hipocrites false Pastors and false Christians whiche are not in any wise true mēbers of the same whiche is the body of Iesus Christ but are members of Sathan and of his Synagoge And therfore onely must it extend to the true members of the Churche among whome these thynges may be practised which S. Paul setteth forth to the Churche of the Corinthes sayng let two or three Prophetes speake and let the rest iudge And if any thyng be reuealed i. Cor. iiii to any other of the assistantes let the first holde hys peace There is no man but may easily vnderstād that this cā not be obserued but in the true Church of Iesus Christ among those that haue the gift of the spirit of God which is not gyuen to carnal men and straungers to Christian doctrine but to such as are spirituall and those whiche call vpō the name of God in truth for the spirituall man may iudge ◠Cor. ii of spirituall thynges and not the carnal how is Christ then in the middest of his and doth assiste thē by his holy spirite in so much as they are gathered together in his name other wise he will be in no companie although the whole worlde were gathered together with all her pompe if it be not assēbled in the name of Iesus to such end as hath ben already declared Wee haue a manifest example by the small assemblees of the Apostles and of the primitiue Churche and by those of the great Synagoge of Bishops of Priestes of Scribes and Phariseis and of the Councels of the Iewes for it is written of such It shall be gyuen to euery man that Math. xx◠Ose iiii hath and he shal become plentiful but he that hath nothing euen that whiche he hath shall be taken from him And in Ose bycause thou hast refused the knowlege I haue also refused thee to the end thou shouldest not sacrifice to me and bycause thou hast forgoten the law of thy God I will also forget thy children And therfore he sayth yf you abyde still in my worde you shall be my disciples and shall knowe the Iohn xvii◠truth Then he promiseth not to be among them whiche by a false title shal be assēbled in his name to gyue new lawes and ordinaunces to the Churche concernyng Religion but to obserue and kepe those whiche he hath gyuen and to vse the keis which she hath receiued of him in such sort as he him selfe hath ordeined For the Church nedeth none other lawes but euen those which she hath receiued of him and therfore math 16. 1◠the Councell of Gangers hath accursed all those which continue not in the law of the Lord and do dayly make new ordinaunces T. This is very reasonable and doth well agree with that whiche is written of the Lord happy are those Psalm cxi◠whiche continew without spot in the way whiche walke in the law of the Lord happy are they which do enquire of the testimonies of the same D. And therefore Christ doth say searche you the Scriptures yf any man do loue me he will Iohn v Iohn xiiii i. Tim. iiii kepe my worde And S. Paul to Timothe Geue attendance vnto readyng T. These are very good aduertisementes ¶ VVhat assembles the faithfull do make and of the auncient Decrees concernyng the celebration of Councels D. IF there were no question but to holde Councels and Synodes among the faithfull whiche haue professed the Gospell and to gather them together to agree them yf they haue any difference among them as there was in the primitiue Churche in certayne pointes bycause the one did not well vnderstand the other it were but an easie matter as it was for the apostles their disciples but that could not content the world Such meetinges and assembles are very good to entertaine the Churches in peace and in the vnion of the doctrine and of the Christian discipline for that cause it was decreed in the v. Canon of the Councell of Nice that their should be yearely in euery prouince two Councels of Bishops the one a litle before Lent the other about the Autumne which thing is now no more obserued in the Popish Churche then are other good thy
also spoken of the difference agrement yâ— is betwene the olde new testameÌ„nt the law the Gospel of the ministerye of the one the other of the diuersity and of the vsage of the lawes geueÌ„ by Moyses of his office and of Iesus Christ ⧠The fourth Dialogue intitled the resolucion of Councels ¶ Of the charge whiche God gaue to Moyses and of the authority of the lawe by him geuen and of the whole doctrine of the Patriarches and Prophetes Timothe Daniel I Am euen now newlye come from reading the second booke of Moyses in the which he hath written of this matter for the which I doo now come to thee here reasteth no more but that thou instruct me of some principal pointes of the doctrine howe I might make my profit of them and dayly to encrease in the knowledge of the authority of this great and generall Councell to the which thou doest referre me D. All be it that I doubt not at al but that thou hast made praier vnto God before thou coÌ„mest to me to the ende that he might graunt grace both to thee and me so to handle his holy woord that it might be to his honour and glory and to our health as we ought alwayes to do when we take in hand so holy a worke yet for al that it shall be very wel done that we both together doo cal vpon him before that we procede anye further in thys matter T. That is verye reasonable and meete D. The Lord for his mercies sake heare our prayers But to our purpose wherof we spake before thou must first note that God himselfe gaue charge to Moyses to cal the people together of whom he had ordained him Pastor and leader was serued by him in that vocation and ministerye as of his legate and embassadour And albeit that God had alredy sufficiently authorised the ministerye of Moyses by the great tokens and maruels which he had done by his hand in the presence of all the people of Israel as well in Egipt before their comming out of it as in the wyldernes after it Yet notwithstanding it pleased him not to speake at that time vnto them by his owne seruaunt and Embassadour Moyses as before time he was wont to do but would himselfe in proper person speake in the presence of all the people and would that the eares of them al shoulde heare hys voyce by the which he gaue the ordinances determinacioÌ„s decrers and Canons of this great Councell whereof we haue already spoken in the first place For the doctrine of the law is an vnderstanding and knowledge of the will of God which is as it were borne with man in his creation in so muche as God hath printed it in hys hart and hath endued him with that grace as with others wherewith he hath endued him when he did create and make him to hys image and likenes But forsomuch as it hath bene greatly darkened and blotted by meanes of sinne which afterward came into the world we must of force come to the vnderstanding and knowledge of the Gospel which is not natural as is that of the lawe nor of the benefit of our fyrst creation as is this here but of that of the regeneracion redempcion and iustification which is reuealed vnto vs by the sonne of God who brought it vnto vs from the bosome of the father Therfore thou mayest see here playnlye who was the author and President of this Councell and from whoÌ„ this doctrin which is brought vnto vs to be the rule to try all other doctrine by which should be set foorth vnto vs in the name of God is proceeded For seing that God by this meane did auowe Moyses to be his seruaunt and for his Prophet and lawful Embassadour we maye be out of doubt that that lawe and doctrine whiche he brought is of God wherfore we may assuredly receiue and esteme it not for mans doctrine but for the doctrine of God And for somuch as that doctrine which hath bene authorised and allowed in thys CouÌ„cel by the authority and the very mouth of God is that same doctrine which in time past al the holy Patriarches did holde and obserue euen from the beginning of the world and that veri same also which since hath bene embraced and followed by al the holy Prophetes and true seruantes of God ther is no doubt but that al the doctrine which the Churche of God hath followed euen from the beginning of the world and hath alwaies bene entertayned and continued in the same by the ministerye of the Patriarches and Prophets hath bene by that same meane authorised allowed and ratified T. For so muche as it is one very doctrine ther is no doubt but that the approuing of the one is also the approuing of the other ¶ How that the allovving of the doctrine of the olde Testament is also the allovving of that of the nevv and hovv the nevv expoundeth the old D. ANd albeit that that same whyche our Lorde Iesus Christ hath brought vs from heaueÌ„ and that it hath bene declared to men as well by the ministerye of him as by that of his Apostles and Disciples and of their successors hath bene agayne authorised and approued in a farre more excellent sort yet standeth it so notwithstanding that the allowing and ratifieng thereof doth agree with that of the doctrine of the Patriarches and Prophets for Christe Roma x. Ephe. ii Act. 2. and hys haue taught nothing contrarye to the same but haue approued and accomplished it For this cause Saynt Paule doth cal Christ the end the performance and fulfylling of the law and the fouÌ„dacion or ground worke of the Prophets and Apostles for that cause he speaketh plainly before Agrigâ—a saying that he hath taught nothing but that whiche Moyses and the Prophetes dyd teache before him Likewise our Lord Iesus Christ did often times refer the Iewes to the testimony of Moyses saying that he had Iohn v witnessed of hym and did send and commende them to the scriptures as it hath bene already declared Moreouer thys agrement of the law of the Prophets with Iesus Christ Math. 17. Luke 1â— hath bene declared in his transfiguracion in that that hys Apostles did see hym with Moyses and Elias also when he opened the hartes of his Disciples going to Emans he did alledge the testimonies written of him in the law in the Psalmes and Prophets we may then easelye vnderstande by this that euen as the Prophets which were sent from God after Moyses were as it were expounders of the law and of the doctrine which he had set forth to hys Church as wel by him as by the Patriarches which were before him euen so our Lord Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue bene the very true expositors of all the auncient doctrine those by whom the last determinacion of al the doctrine of saluation hath bene set forth and declared to the Churche
the dead and to apply them to sondry vses but the pulpit is not greatly encumbred with them and wheÌ„ they do preach they preach nothyng els but lyes as their owne dreames phautasies Legenda aurea a Scripture of their owne inspiration theyr owne traditions decrees and ordinaunces Christ ordeined onely two SacrameÌ„tes which two they haue corrupted and added to theÌ„ fiue bycause that Christ did not so well know what is meete for his Church as they do O horrible Gene 2 presumption God him selfe when he had created man in Paradise sayd It is not good that man be alone we will make i Cor 7 hym a helper The Apostle s Paul saith It is good for a maÌ„ not to touche a woman yet to auoyde fornication let euery man haue his owne wife euery woman her own husband Heb 13 â— The Apostle saith mariage is honorable among al meÌ„ the bed vndefiled but God will iudge the whore masters and adulterers these wordes are generall and haue regarde to all men and to all estates Iesus Christ did not onely alow mariage but did also honor it with his presence In Cana of Galilee S. Augustine in hys treatise of the goodnes of mariage sayth in his 21. Chap. that he dare not preferre the virginity of S. Iohn before the mariage of Abraham S. Ambrose in hys first booke sayth Touching virgins S. Paule sayth I haue no coÌ„maundmeÌ„t of the Lord but I do couÌ„sel or aduise if the doctor of the Gentils had no commaundemeÌ„t who is he that might haue any And truly he had no coÌ„maundment but he did counsell therunto for virginitie can not be coÌ„mauÌ„ded it may wel be desired for that which is not in our power is not to be coÌ„mauÌ„ded but it is to be wished for Origens vpoÌ„ S. Mathew in his 24. Homelie sayth That they which do forbid men to marry do enforce theÌ„ to a licentious villeni forbiddyng that which is expedieÌ„t The like he sayth of those that coÌ„maund abstinence from meates and such lyke where vnto the faithfull may in no wise be coÌ„strained he sayth that they lay he any burdens on the shoulders of men coÌ„trary to the wil of Christ who sayth My yoke is pleasant my burthen light easy c. Eusebius in hys Ecclesiasticall historie 3. boke 30. cha reciteth that S. Clement writyng against such as did condempne mariage among other thynges sayth wil they reproue the Apostles S. Peter had a wife So had Philippe Paul also had a wife as appeareth by one of hys Epistles in the whiche he is not ashamed to send salutations to her whom he sayth he would not carry about the countrey with him bycause he would be the more ready to preach the Gospell Many of the auncient fathers were maried as Patriarkes Prophetes and Bishops of the primitiue Church Yet is not the Pope affrayde to say and stand agaynst God and Christ that mariage is vnclennes pollution and carnal filthynes as it is said in the. 4. of the senteÌ„ces Dist c. 17. chap. 4. and his decret 27. Quest 2. chap. whiche begynneth Cum societas Tertulian in his prescriptions agaynst the heretikes sayth It is not in our power or choise lawful â–ª to bring in to chuse or alledge for authoritie that whiche any other hath brought in or alledged for hys own pleasure for we haue the Apostles of the Lord for our authors who haue brought in nothing for theyr own pleasure â–ª nor any new thing but haue faithfully preached and taught to the nations that discipline which they receyued of Christ S. Augustine vpon S. Iohn in the. 46. treatise and. 10. chap. sayth if they whiche sit in the chaire of Moses do teache the lawe of God it doth then folowe that God teacheth by them but if they will teache any thyng of theyr owne heare them not nor yet do it c. And in the. 6. against Faustus chap. 16. in the. 18. booke chap. 12. doth cal by the wordes of Christ not onely false Prophetes but also theeues and murderers all such as dare preach any other thing to the people of God theÌ„ the Canonical Scriptures against such he alledgeth the saying of Christ al those yâ— came before me are theeues murderers S. Paul in his 1. Epistle to the GalathiaÌ„s doth accursâ—e him that bringeth any other doctrine theÌ„ that which he hath taught yea if it wer an AuÌ„gell of heauen Further in hys Epistle he sayth that whiche I receyued of the Lord the same also deliuer I vnto you c. It is not so with these men of whom we haue alreadie spoken they deliuer vnto vs their own traditions inuentions and dreames in the stead of the worde of God And I doubt not although these men haue nothing in their mouthes but the fathers the fathers which must authorise the scriptures vnto theÌ„ if the fathers liued in these daies but they wold be as readye to persecute them as they are to persecute those which in these dayes do professe Christ Let it be seene how many of them were which suffered in the late tyme of theyr late persecution that did denie any one article of the Christian fayth but they did by Gods grace most costantly affirme them euen sealing them vp with their bloud examine Theodoret Epiphanius and Augustine Fathers of great holynes and doctrine who haue largely written of heresyes and let it be seene whether they maintained any one of those which they cite no not one let vs see how many Arrians Anabaptistes Pelagians Marcionistes Nestorians Ebionistes or any other kind of heretikes they did then execute I suppose the number wil appeare very smal for they are al in leage with Sathan I doubt not but if the Gospell had as fatte a smoking kitchin tyed vnto it as haue the Romyshe rytes we should haue a great number of Gospellers for this kitchin Seducers of the people is of great effecte among the Romanistes S. Chrisostome vpon S. Mathew in his 48. Homelie chap. 24. sayth thus There are some which do greatly seduce through lyes vntrouthes they preach Christ they teach the fayth they haue also churches orders and elders as the faythfull haue They do also read the Scriptures of God it semeth that they geue the same baptisme and the sacrament of the bodye and bloud of Iesus Christ likewise they honour the Apostles Martyrs and by these meanes they do greatly abuse the vnderstanding not only of the simple but also of such as are wise who shall he be that Antichrist shall not be able to shake or moue partlye doing the workes of Christ and the antichristians fulfilling in a sorte the dueties of christians vnlesse it be peraduenture such an one as doth consider that which the Apostle sayth if Sathan can transforme himself into an Angell of lyght is it then a greate matter for hys ministers to be transformed lyke to the minister of iustice whose end shal be according to
their workes and not according to their fayned show of Christianitie S. Hierom vpon the. 9 cha of the Prophet Osee fayth I do noâ— fynde by the auÌ„cient hystories that any other haue deuided the Church and seduced the people of the houshould of God but onely the Priestes and Prelates whom God hath appoynted to be the spialles watch meÌ„ for the ChristiaÌ„s against yâ— enemies of the church S. Bernard in hys Appologie to williaÌ„ the Abbot sayth The wals of the Church do shyne but the pore are in distresse the stone Wherof the church consâ—steth workes of her are clothed with gold but she leaueth her children naked Isichius vpon Leuiticus boke 4. chap. the. 14. sayth They may well bee called the deckyng of the house that doo maintaine it to witte those orders of men whiche teach godlynes or godly thynges for of suche is the Churche made in dede and not as many do thinckâ— of wood and stones And therfore when in the olde tyme it was commaunded to assemble the church Moyses did not bring together tymber stones and such like but the people the elders the Leuits Saint Chrysostome of his resignatioÌ„ or banishment Hom. 20 sayth The church consisteth not of walles but of the multitude of good people S. Bernard vpon the Cantiqueâ— in his 33. sermon sayth Now from whom shal the church hyde her The coÌ„plaiÌ„t of Bernard self all are frendes and all are enemyes all are allies and all are aduersaries al are of the houshold and none is at quiet al are neighbours and euery maÌ„ seketh his own profit they are the ministers of Christ serue Antichrist they walke in honour with the goods of the Lorde yet they honour not the Lord froÌ„ thence coÌ„meth that beautie of the whore which thou dayly doest see clothed as players of staige playes apparelled as a king of this thou seest the golde vpon their brydles fadles and spurres of this are the tables furnyshed with meates and vessells of this are the dronkennesies and gluttonies of this proceedeth the harpe viall from thence are the flowing wine presses the ful sellers the one equall with the other of this are the litle boxes and pottes full of swete oyntmentes and sauours of this are their pursses filled for this cause wil they be ar the princes of the Church the Prouostes the Deanes the Archdeacons the Byshops and the Archbishops and such things come not lawfully to passe but because they walke in the affaires of darknes heretofore it hath bene spoken of and nowe is the time come and fulfilled Beholde in peace my bitternes is very bitter It Esay 38. d hath beene heretofore bitter in the death of the Martyrs after that more bitter in the controuersies of the heretiques now it is most bitter in the maners of the seruauntes of the housholde they can neyther be driuen awaye nor auoyded they are so strong and so infinitely encreased The wound of the Church is in her entrayles and bowells and it is incurable and therfore is her bitternes very bitter c. S. Hillarie writing against Aurentius sayth these wordes I warne AdmonitioÌ„ of Hillary you to beware of Antichrist you doe to much esteeme the walles seeking the Church of God in the gorgiousnes of buildinges thinking that the vnitie of the faythfull is there conteyned doe we doubt whether Antichrist haue hys seate there or no. The mountaines the woodes the lakes prisons and wildernesses are more assured vnto â—e and more safe for the Prophets being in them hidden did prophecie Saint Bernard vpon the. 90. Psalme and verse 6. sayeth in maner al the Christians seke their own gayn not the gaine of Iesus Christ And they haue turned ouer the very offices of the ecclesiasticall dignitie into shamefull and dishonest gayne and into affaires of darknes and do not in these things seke the saluation of soules but the pleasures of riches For thys cause are they rouÌ„ded for this cause do they haunt the churches say Masses anâ— sing Psalmes At this daye they striue by proces go to lawe for Bishoprikes Archbishoprikes in such sorte yâ— the reuenues of yâ— Church are vestowed in superfluities and vaine vsages there resteth no more but that the man of sinne the sonne of perdition be reueled c. Saint Bernard in his sermon of the conuersion of S. Paul sayth O Lord God those whom we see to couet the chiefe places in thy church and possesse the principalitie they are euen the first that persecute thee They haue taken the Arke of Sion and they haue possessed the castle and afterward haue frely through the power therof set the whole ciâ—ie on fyre their coÌ„uersation is miserable the subuersioÌ„ of thy people is lamentable S. Bernard in his boke de considâ—r ad EugeniuÌ„ toward the ende of his 4. booke speaketh to the Pope in this sorte what is it that thy flatterers saye vnto thee goe to hardely The description of the Romish Court. thou byest them with the spoyle of the churches The lyfe of the poore is sowen in the gates of the riche The siluer shyneth in the dirte meÌ„ runne thither out of al parâ—es the poorest caryeth it not awaye but he that is strongest or ells hee that runneth moste spedelye this custome or rather deadlye corruption began not in thy time God would it might end in the same In the meane time thou art adourned decked preciously if I durst say it thy seate is rather a close of deuils then of shepe Dyd S. Peter so Did S. Paul so mocke Thy court doth vse rather to receaue the good then to make any good for such as are euill do not amend in thy court but the good do there waxe worse Bernard also sayth Beholde the Ad Eâ—gen lâ—b â—eâ—tio common murmure and complaint of all the Churches they crye out that they are wounded and corne in peeces There are very fewe or none ar all who feare not that wouÌ„d doest thou aske what wound it is The Abbotes are robbed and spoyled by their bishops the Bishops by their Archbishops It is a maruell if any man be able to excuse it In so doing you do very wel declare that you haue plentie of power but not of iustice you do it because you are able to doe it but the question is if you ought to doe it You are ordayned to conserue to euery man his honour and degree not to be enuious toward him c. S. Paule doth rightwell setforth in his colours this Romishe prelate whiche will be called Sanctissimus or most holy in his second Epistle to the Thessalonians and. 2. chap. naming him the sonne of perdition the man of sinne c. S. Peter also in his 2. Epistle and. 2. chap. doth most liuely paynt out the maners and life of this Romyshe rabble of Prelacy Furthermore in the distinctioÌ„s distinct 34 cap Lector glose distinct 82 chap prisbit and in
they do not let by all meanes possible to procure them to persecute that doctrine whiche they oughte chiefely to aduaunce and mayntayne D. It is not greatly to be maruelled at for suche men often tymes deale with princes as doth the fowler with the byrdes that he setteth for hys stale For they establishe such Religion as pleaseth them and semeth vnto them best for theyr purpose to noryshe and mayntayne theyr ambition and theyr bellyes And bycause they want power to authorise their lawes and ordinaunces whereby to mayntayne their abuse they abuse the power and authoritie of the princes in that behalfe trayning them by their wicked and lend councell to do whatsoeuer pleaseth them And as these men do often tymes abuse the ignoraunces and negligences of princes euen so on the other part princes oftentimes abuse the malitious mindes of such men to serue their ambition tyrannics and wicked enterprises Wherfore they do more esteme them beyng such then if they were more honest for they could not endure them if they were honest and would giue them faythfull councell both for the honour of God and the health both of theyr owne soules and of theyr subiectes also bycause they haue a desire to obey God and to set his people in Christian libertie to serue hym nor yet to reforme the Churche according to his worde but rather to peruert the true religion and to make it serue to their purpose euen as Ieroboam did They had rather to haue such Prophetes Priestes as had Ieroboam Achab Iesabell and such as were the Magitiens of Pharao the more clenly therby to resist gods truth theÌ„ to haue the true seruants of God that folow the trace of the true Prophetes Apostles And for so much as both they their people desire such do well deserue to haue such God doth send them euen such as they wish for but it is in his wrath as he threatneth by hys Prophets to the end they may haue the more mete matter dayly to harden theyr hartes more more and more spedyly Esay 3. 29. Ose 5. 7. to hasten theyr destruction ¶ Of the Iudgement of the Christian doctrine and of those by vvhom it must be reported of the princes duety in that behalfe and of the faulte of those that in the same despise the Councell of the seruauntes of God T. I Do feare also that ther be many that trust to much in matters of Religion to those that falsely name themselues to be of the Churche as Prelates and Pastours of the Churche and that it fareth with theÌ„ eueÌ„ as it doth with those that commit wholly their soules and coÌ„sciences into the hands of their Curates and Prelats D. It is certain that in all states there are some that thincke of religion as they do of some scieÌ„ce or handy craft Wherfore when there happeneth any controuersie they think that the knowlege therof doth in no wise appartaine to theÌ„ but that it is ynough for theÌ„ to committe the decidyng of the matter into the handes of the masters of the occupation and theÌ„ to giue their senteÌ„ce accordyng to the reporte that those men shal make and to esteme done and concluded what soeuer they conclude T. It semeth to me that their opinioÌ„ is not very euill For who can better iudge of an art or occupation then the masters therof Wer it not a great presumptioÌ„ for any man to take vpon him to iudge of that whiche he neither vnderstandeth nor knoweth D. This that thou sayest is not all together voyde of apparance but here must we take good hede that no man be deceiued for syth that here is the question whether that men of occupation shall iudge of thinges appertaining to their occupation thou must theÌ„ vnderstand that â—p man can truly iudge of the Christian doctrine but such as are true Christians for no man can vnderstand the heauenly language and the language of God but onely the children of God and those that are heauenly and not earthly Wherfore I do more esteme the iudgement of a simple laborer being one of the elect of god and regenerate by his holy spirite then that of all the Popes Byshops Priestes Philosophers and Doctours whiche shal be infidels or hipocrites for such are not of the occupatioÌ„ wherof we speake And as touching that whiche thou sayest that I do not alowe the councell or acte of a prince if he take in hand to do any thyng of his owne head in matter of Religion without askyng at the mouth of the Lord and takyng aduise couÌ„cell of him by the helpe of those vnto whom he hath gyuen speciall charge to open and make manifeste his will vnto men and to declare his lawe vnto them And for this cause he hath don this honor to his Prophets and true Ministers of his Churche to call them his mouth promising that he will put hie word into their mouth And when the princes or people haue taken in hand any thynge that hath appertained to the honor of God and to their health without enquiring of the Lordes will at the handes of his Prophetes he hath rebuked them bycause they dyd not aske at hys Esay 1. 30. Ose 1. mouth that they haue weaued their cloth but not by his spirite he speaketh to the same purpose by Malachie The lyps of the Prieste do kepe knowledge men shall enquire of Malâ— i. the law at his mouth for he is the aungel and messenger of the Lord of hostes ¶ Of the causes vvhy the princes should enquire of the vvill of God at the mouth of his Ministers and of the giftes of God vvith the vvhiche he endueth his Ministers T. IT semeth vnto me that it is very commendable in a prince chiefly when there is question of the reformatioÌ„ of the Church to enquire in that behalfe of the will of God at the hands of those that are appointed by God to declare the same vnto hym D. The thyng is not onely honest but so necessarie as nothing is more necessarie For albeit the prince be of the wisest of his Realme yet notwithstanding he can not knowe all thyngs but may oftentymes deceaue him selfe euen in his owne deuises Wherefore if he will at any tyme vse the counsell of his counsellers in matters of lesse importauÌ„ce or at the least he is not thought to be wise if that he do contemne it howe much is it more requisite to do it in a matter of so great weight whiche toucheth the honor of God and the health or damnation of euery man and not onely of the person of the prince but also of all hys subiectes T. Suche a matter is well worthy to be considered D. Of the other side it is very lyke that a good Pastour whiche maketh speciall profession of the study of the holy Scriptures and hath commission from God to expouÌ„d them to others is more exercised then others whiche are lesse occupyed in
the same and more occupyed in other affaires chiefly princes whiche are dayly troubled with busines vpon busines from all partes T. That is very true D. This is also to be considered That althoughe God be bound to no sorte of men or estates but that he may distribute his giftes and graces to whom it pleaseth him yet for all that the matter is so that he hath a great regarde to that holy Ministerye whiche he hath ordeyned in hys Churche Wherfore he doth commonly more adorne with his giftes and graces those whiche he hath iustly and lawfully called to the same then any others In like sorte that for the loue of the same he doth bestow often tymes goodly and excelleÌ„t Num. 14. Iohn 11. 18 gifts eueÌ„ vpon those that are euil to the end they shal serue in his Church of the whiche he hath continually a singular care we haue manifest example hereof in BalaaÌ„ and Caiphas for althogh he wer as euil a maÌ„ as the erth doth bear that the gift of god did profit him nothing as touching him selfe yet notwithstanding for the loue of him whose persoÌ„ he doth represeÌ„t as s Iohn doth right wil giue vs to vnderstaÌ„d Iohn xv God to honor this holy ministery ordained in his law hath made him to Prophecie Althoughe he haue reproued that man all his couÌ„sels T. This is worthy to be coÌ„sidered D. Then if princes and al other men do this honor to those that are skilfull in any thing to demaunde their aduise and couÌ„sell and in that behalfe to be gouerned rather by them then by any others they should do great dishonour not onely to the Ministers of God but also to their ministery to God which is auctor therof if they esteme theÌ„ lesse in their estate and do make lesse accouÌ„pt of their counsell then they do of the counsell of others whiche are not of like price ¶ Of the dishonour that those kynde of men doo vnto God vvhiche doo not vouchesafe to enquire of his vvill at the haÌ„des of his Ministers and vvhat authoritie the Ministerie of the Churche hath ouer all men T. THey would not do them so great honor as did the ancient PagaÌ„s and Idolaters here to fore to their false Prophetes For bycause they did holde them for true Prophetes yet in their error they had thys reuerence towardes God that hardly durst they enterprise any thyng that was of importauÌ„ce chiefly in things that appartained to Religion without inquiringe of the will of their Gods at the handes of their Prophetes D. Thou sayest truth And therefore it should be a great dishonor reproch to those that are Christians if they do not God and his Prophets so great honor at least as did the Pagans and Idolaters to the deuill and his Ministers thincking to honor God and his seruauntes And beside this yf ther were none other reason but onely this which is to wit that God hath willed that his Church should be gouerned by the ministerie of his word which if it wer not but only to obserue the order that God him selfe hath appointed yet is it requisâ—te that all men both great small submit theÌ„ to that holy ministery to that order which god hath established in the same as al the good kinges princes of the people of God haue alwayes done notwithstandyng they haue ben maruelously endued with the giftes of God Was ther euer prince kyng or Prophet more excelleÌ„t then Dauid whiche was both a king and a Prophet T. I thincke not D. Yet notwtstaÌ„ding wheÌ„ he would gyue order for the building of the teÌ„ple for that offices ministeries appartayning to that seruice of God he did take in haÌ„d nothing wtout the aduise of the Prophetes of the Lord namely of NathaÌ„ by 2. Sam. 7 i. Chro. 17. whoÌ„ he vnderstode that the Lords wil was that the teÌ„ple should not builded by him although he had determined and purposed it but by his sonne Salomon In like maner Moses Exod. 1â— that great and excellent Prophete did he contemne the counsell of Iethâ—o his father in law whiche was of farre meaner estate then he ¶ Of the meane and order that princes should kepe in iudgement of thinges appertaining to Religion and to the reformation of the same T. ALl those things do confirme the opinioÌ„ of those that wil coÌ„mit all things yâ— touch Religion to those that are called meÌ„ of the Church without dealing therin theÌ„ selues D. Yf thou diddest wel vnderstaÌ„d me I did not coÌ„clude that princes other men should so addresse theÌ„ to the Ministers of the Church in matters of ReligioÌ„ coÌ„science that they should not deale therin so far as their office should require and to take good hede to what kinde of men they came least that in stede of commyng to the true Prophetes of God and Ministers of Iesus Christe they should addresse them to false Prophetes and Ministers of Antechriste as often tymes it happeneth T. This matter is perillous D. Therefore as those men are greatly to be blamed that make none accoumpt of the true Ministers of God and of hys Churche but wyll gouerne the Churche and determine of those thynges which appertayne to the reformation of the same folowing their own fantasie and opinion or els as though they had to determine of some worldly policie euen so on the contrarie part these kinde of men are greatly to be blamed whiche will not deale in it at all but suffer others to determine of it euen as it pleaseth them and are ready to execute that whiche others shall appoynte without hauynge any consideration of the thynge them selues But euen as shall please the others without due examynyng and vnderstandynge what they do For as the firste sorte vsurpe a greate tyranny ouer the Churche and ouer the Ministerie of the same lyke vnto that of the Antichriste who hath plucked to hym selfe the authoritie to dispose of the Churche at hys pleasure in lyke maner this laste sorte do wronge to them selues and do frame and establishe a derye daungerous tyrannye both agaynst them selues agaynste the whole Church and do confirme Antechriste in the possession whiche he hathe all ready vsurped ouer them For albeit that a iudge before he gyue sentence and before he wyll execute the same do aske the aduise and counsell of hys assistauntes yet doth he not gyue hys iudgemente accordynge to theyr sentences vntil he haue wel examined and vnderstood them Otherwise he should put him selfe in greate daunger and hys office should not be greatly differyng from the office of a hange man For the hange man doth not assiste in the counsell of the iudges he gyueth no sentence he hath no voyce nor medleth with theyr processe or causes of those that are delyuered into hys handes he hath nothing to do but only to execute that which is gyuen hym in charge But a iudge hathe farre other authoritie and greater charge
of mouth and doth put vs oftentimes in mynde therof by the ministerie of his worde ¶ VVhat libertie God hath gyuē in the vsage of ceremonies and of the meane that must be kept in the same T. IT shall then accordyng to thy opiniō be lawful for mē to dispense with ceremonies and with ciuile lawes and to chaunge them at their pleasures D. My purpose tendeth not to such an ende For when I do declare for what cause God hath left in this greater libertie vnto men then in the rest wherof we haue spokē I wil not therfore say although it be lawfull for God to chaūge all those thyngs at his pleasure according as he doth know it to be mete for the health of man that man should chalenge to him self such a licēce but contrarily when they haue receiued any ordinaunce of God be it ceremonies or such lyke they ought not at all to chaunge any thyng therof vntill that God him selfe which onely hath libertie so to do do it as we see it hath come to passe by the ceremonies which were obserued in the Church of Israell whiche were abolished by the commynge of our Lord Iesus Christ for that they were not ordained to serue but onely vntil that time Besides this in that in the which God hath gyuen no certaine and expressed ordinaunce but hath left those things in our libertie as indifferent we may vse that libertie whiche he hath left vnto vs gouernyng the same alwayes according to the rule of faith and of charitie If ther be then any questiō as touching the ceremonies ordeined in the law of Moses we must then haue regard vnto that parte of them whiche was abolished by the commyng of Iesus Christ whiche may not now be obserued without renouncyng of Iesus Christe as thoughe men douted whether he had accomplished or no that whiche was figured by them Yf there be any question of Sacramentes ordayned by our Lord Iesus Christe and of the ceremonies and of the discipline whiche he hym selfe hath ordeyned we muste then take good hede that we chaunge no iote thereof or to adde or diminishe in any thing that toucheth the substaūce of such thynges If there be question of mans traditions and of the auncient Canons Decrees it is requisite to cōsider wherin and how they do agree with the word of God also how they may serue to the edification of the Church or how they may hinder the same For there are many I say euen of those whiche are not contrarie to the worde of God whiche were good for a tyme which not onely would not serue at this present but woulde do greate hurte bycause the tyme doth not nowe require that whiche it then dyd when they were decreed And therefore if that of the verye Apostles touchynge the abstinence from bloud and from strangled fleshe whiche was decreed in the Counsell at Ierusalem was abolished in tyme conuenient when the vsage thereof was no more necessarie in the Churche howe muche more reason haue wee to doe the lyke of others that are of suche qualitie when that the tyme and the edification of the Churche shoulde require it T. I agree well to all thys But there is beside these an other sorte of people of whome wee haue not yet spoken whiche seeme to haue more reason then the others of whome wee haue nowe made mention but it maye bee that wee haue spoken ynoughe for one tyme it shall be beste that wee leaue them vntill an other tyme. For I doe not doubte but wee shall haue occasion to discourse sufficientlye of them D. Who are they I beseche thee T. They bee those that wayte for a Councell D. And bycause that we haue happened vppon thys matter of the Councel I am wel content that we put it ouer to an other tyme for it doth well merite that men looke narowly vnto it for so muche as many men depende vpon them ¶ The contentes of the second Dialogue named the waitinge for the Councell or the Nevvtrall Gospellers to vvit suche as vvill deale betvvene the true false Religion doctrine BYcause that the lookynge for a generall Councell to appease the troubles that are in Christendome in causes of Religion doth feede and entertayne many poore ignoraunt men in vayne hope and doth let thē from the diligent searchynge out of those thinges that belong to their saluation I haue determined fully to entreate of the matter in Dialogues folowing in whiche I will playnely declare what hope the Christians may haue of a Coūcel and what they may thinck wil come of it and how hard it wil be to assemble it and what issue or what good or euil we ought to looke for of it and what profite the lawfull Councelles maye bryng to Christiantie and whiche is the true Councell vpon the which the true Christians ought to repose and to instructe theyr consciences And in handling of these matters I wil touch chiefly in this Dialogue what hope wee maye haue in such affaires as wel of their part that are called Prelates of the Church as of the parte of the Christian princes as they haue gyuen vs well and sufficiently to know by examples and by experience that we haue had already of the Councell of Trent And after that there is some thing sayd of the Interim and of such soliciters worckers as will ioyne Iesus Christ Antichriste together in stede of Christiās make Samaritās of the opinion of such as say that the Coūcel cā not erre which is also continued in the other Dialogues folowing in the which I do a little paint set forth the maner of proceding whiche the Papistes obserue in their Councels and I do cōpare it with that whiche God did vse in his Councel that he helde with his people first in the moūt of Synay and after that in the hill of Sion I do shew also what preparatiō ther ought to be for the doctrine of such Councels and how that those two Councels conteine all the doctrine of the old and new Testament how they do so agree together that they both tend to one vpon whō onely it behoueth vs all to stay Wherupon also I make mention of the agrement and difference that may be betwene the old and newe Testamēt betwene Moses and Iesus Christ betwene the law the Gosspell and the law which is called the lawe of grace and the law of rigour of the abolishing also of the vsage of the law of Moses and of the vengeance of God which is prepared agaynst those that will not willingly receyue the Decrees Canons of this great and godly Councel and shall abuse his worde and of the great grace whiche he hath offered to men in his sonne Iesus Christ our Lord which things shal be entreated of euery one in his place And as touching this present Dialogue I haue intituled it the waitynge for the Coūcell or the newtrals in respect of the
is there hope to remedie these thinges by the helpe of the Christian princes D. I see no greate hope in that behalfe For who be the Christian princes that maye geue order in this if they be seduced by the Pope and hys that Antichrist will be serued of them for to make him continuallye more stronge if they be well instructed in the doctrine of the Lord and that they haue a desire to reforme the church according to the rule of his worde that Antichrist forthwith endeuoureth to sturre vp al those princes and nations that are abused by him to hinder so godlye an enterprise And when one prince wil an other will not Wherefore it will be a very long time before mē may cause all the princes and other estates of the world by whose meanes such assemblies ought to be made to agrée in one opinion and to come together and to consente in one so holye a worke For we shall finde in all these estates those same difficulties lettes and excuses whereof we haue already spoken For there is so great contempte of God and of hys worde and so greate negligence and carelesnes in all estates concernyng those things that touch the honour of God the health of soules and so great a burden of their owne glory and priuate profitte and their hartes so rooted in the earth that they forget heauen and can finde at no tyme any leasure to labour in the worke of the Lordes house T. That is a verye great euill D. We may easely iudge what hope we shall haue of a generall reformation by meanes of a generall councell by the experience of those thinges which we daylye see in those places where God hath alreadye geuen of hys grace to princes Magistrates to laye their hands to his works to beginne some maner of reformation in his church Let vs beginne with the best reformed church that may be found in christendome and let vs compare the forme and order of it with that that was in the auncient church I meane not of the most perfect that euer was as of that of the Apostles but of that church that was longe after the Apostles tyme what difference shall we finde T. I thinke we shall finde very great difference D. So great as we shall be ashamed to call a reformation the reformation that we shall therein find seing the deformitie that ther yet doth rest wherof euery man complayneth and yet no man can remedie it ¶ Of the negligence and vvante that is in the ministers of the church and generally in all other estates wherby the reformation of the church is hindred T. WHat is the cause thereof D. Euery man in his calling for oftentimes it is seene that the Ministers are negligent in their ministerye and doe not call vpon the magistrates and people exhorting them to execute their offices vprightly and sincerely as they ought to doe for often tymes it is seene that they them selues do as much or more feare a reformation then others do And if there be defaulte and negligence in those men which shoulde be a lyght vnto others let vs then well wey what may be found in the magistrates and people For there are very few which on their part feare not a reformation and desire not at all to frame it according to the rule of the worde of God to directe theyr liues and maners according to the same but rather to make the worde of God subiecte to them and to haue a reformation according to their own will pleasure And frō whence commeth al this but onely from an euill conscience and of a disordinate desire that is in men of a carnall libertie and of a manifest rebelliō against God For they will not haue God to reigne ouer them but they will liue and reigne at their pleasure They can not endure to haue their naughtie affections and dissolute maners to be bridled and the abuse of their estates corrected and their tyrannye suppressed by the worde of God They besturre them on euery side by all meanes possible and employe all their forces to caste of the yoke of the Lord to the end they wil not be subiecte to him and consider not in the meane time that in refusing to yeld vnto God that obedience whiche they owe vnto hym they rest subiectes to the deuil and become daily more and more his slaues for they had rather to reigne by the deuil and the deuill to reigne in them thē to liue and reigne by God and God to reigne in them and ouer them Wherefore we may well say of them altogether that which S. Paule did of the ministers of his tyme at which time the worde of God dyd geue fruite in other sort then now it doth Euery one sayeth Phill. 1 he is about his own busines and careth but for himself and not for Iesus Christ It cōmeth somtime to passe that there are good ministers and that on their part do acquite some pece of their duetie in thys behalfe but those which are ioyned in the same ministerie with them shoulde helpe them and drawe with them in the same yoke that they drawe are oft tymes those that hinder them more then any others T. When this happeneth the hindraunce is not small for one onely horse that draweth backewarde doth hinder more then sixe horses which draw forward are able to ouercome ¶ Of the empeachmentes that men geue one to an other in the reformation of the church and of the punyshment of God vpon them for the same cause D. IF it so come to passe that the Ministers agree wel and do wel acquite them of their duetie peraduenture they shall not finde the Magistrates and officers of that same sorte which will put to their handes to helpe them in theyr ministerye as their office requireth but will rather bande against them to ouerthrowe all good discipline and will rather maintayne vicious men then vertuous Or ells if it come so to passe that the Magistrates and officers bee well affected towarde the reformation of the Church they may meete with ministers which shall not greatlye hasten them forward but will rather disswade them from it where they ought to perswade them to it and will rather geue them libertie to runne a straye then to put them in the right path Or if it so come to passe that the Ministers and Magistrates with the officers bee all of one mind as concernyng holye things and do helpe one an other in the workes of the Lord which thing is very seldome sene yet shall they haue much to do to range the people vnder any good discipline For ther are fewe which are tractable and will willinglye submitte them selues vnto it and if there bee some of so good a sorte there shall be some Minister or some Magistrate that shall seke to altar him and be offended with him Wherfore seing that there are so fewe Ministers Magistrates and people that are willing to submitte
For if they were desirous to hear vnderstand the truth to bring into the rightway those which they hold for heretikes Scismatikes why do they not there admit thē and franckly safely receiue them to heare their reasons to shewe thē by the word of God if their cause haue good foūdation in the same their errors wherin they say that they are But they passe not for that for they wil not heare their iudges nor endure that the word of God shal iudge thē knowyng well that by it they are already condempned but will be iudges ouer it and condēpne it as their aduersary Truly their doings must nedes be good their conclusions good their condemnatiōs lawfull In so much as they are both iudges parties witnesses euen as their predecessors were against Iesus Christ they haue their hangemē executioners ready at hād to execute their sētences What differēce is there betwene such a Coūcell a conspiracie of theeues whiche sweare together to take in hand some enterprise to cut mens throtes What authoritie ought such a Coūcell to be of What prophets are there what doctors what Christiā princes how may then al christēdō lawfully receiue for resoluciō determinatiō of the christiā doctrine for a true reformatiō of the church the cōclusiō y◠shal be had in such a cōspiracie of the enemies of God of al Christianitie There is no man of sound iudgement that will agree to this for it is in a maner such a cōspiracie as was that which Salomon discribeth of those which said Let vs lay ambushes to shed blud and let vs lye in waite for that innocent without cause It is a cōspiracie like vnto that of the false Priests false Prophets Prou. i Iere. xviii enemies of Ieremie which sayd let vs go let vs woūde and smite with the toung for the Sacrificers shall neuer want wisedom It is much like to y◠which the Papistes say The Coūcels cā not erre And if it be lawfull to cōstrayne mē by force that feare God which great strokes of swordes by warres murders sheding of bloud with great store of fagotes mighty fiers as these worthy fathers do I leaue to thy iudgemēt what edificatiō what peace vnion such a Coūcell may bryng to the church of Iesus Christ to al christēdom ¶ VVhat Councell the true Christians ought to folovve in wayting for the generall Councell T. WHat shall we then do if this hope be taken from vs D. Though we haue no occasiō at al to cōceiue any good hope of the Coūcell of Trēt yet will I not therfore say that al hope is taken frō vs foreuer but I will onely say that we liuing in this hope should be occasioned to stay without any further inquiring of the wil of God without the assuring of our consciences in his worde And whē such matter hath bene in question I haue alwayes bene thus resolued in my selfe Either there shal be a Coūcel holdē or els there shal be none holdē Ff ther non holdē I am thē deceiued in my waityng for it if there shal be one holdē I know not whether I shall liue vnto that time or no or at the least to see the end conclusiō therof And in the mean time if I dye not being wel resolued in my cōscience of religion I shall dye in great disquetnes of conscience and in great perill of my saluation as thou mayest wel vnderstand by those matters whiche haue already ben debated sufficiently and at large betwene vs. Wherefore I had rather in the meane tyme to assure my selfe folowyng the admonition of our Lord Iesus Christ whiche sayth Be vpon your garde watche and praye and Mat. 24. 25. Luke 12. do like that good seruaunt that is alwayes ready looketh for hys master not knowyng what houre he shal come We are well assured that he shall come but we neither knowe the day ne yet the houre Wherefore let vs lyue alwaye in such estate as becommeth Christians to be when he shall come and then shall we neuer be sodenly taken ¶ Of those vvhiche vvould agree the doctrine of Iesus Christ and that of Antichrist together and of the forme of doctrine compounded to such an ende called Interum and of the vanitie of the authors of the same T. IN dede it is the most sure but in the meane tyme it is a harde matter to finde any kynde of Religion wherein a man may so well continue in wayting for the generall Councell as that whiche men call at this day the Interim D. Thou hast now put vs into a very large fielde I would gladly that these foregers of Interim should declare vnto me the very cause why they do call thys newe forme of Religion whiche they haue forged by the name of Interim T. Thou doest well vnderstand y◠Interim signifieth in the Latin toung in the meane tyme or whilest D. I do know that very wel yet notwithstanding I would gladly know what they meane by this worde in the meane time or whylest T. They meane as I thinke y◠that maner of lyfe hath ben set forth onely to that end that men should lyue according to the same in matter of Religion whilest they away◠for a Councell in the which more ample and more certaine determination in matter of Religion or els an other reformation more perfect shal be had D. Is not that a very wise Councell I would desire no more but the title of this worthy maner of reformation to declare the great vanitie of the authors of the same For either it is builded vpon the word of God or els it is agaynste it If it bee agreable to Gods worde there nedeth not eyther whylest or vntill for it shal be alwayes good and holy Yf it be agaynst it and if it endure but one hour it shal cōtinew ouer long for so much as what so euer thynge it be that is agaynste God the same ought to haue no place neither for shorte nor longe tyme. For it fareth not with gods kingdom as it doth with worldly kingdomes neither with Gods lawes ouer the whiche we haue no power as it doth with mans lawes For when a king is dead there is a certayne time betwene the decease of the dead kyng and the creation of the new kyng which is called enter raigne whiche is a tyme betwene both whiche is properly called neither raigne nor kingdome for so much as there is as yet no kyng chosen as head of the same and mē can not say that there is vtterly no raigne or kingdom for so much as the lawes and countrey stande in their full power and effecte sauyng onely that they haue not as yet their kyng appointed chosen And the like is when a cheife Magistrate dyeth in a Seigmorie Nowe this can haue no place in the kyngdome of God for the king thereof neuer dyeth Wherfore as he
true and Christian can not be made false nor heresie by the authoritie neyther of the Church ne yet of any creature what so euer he be and that which of her nature is false and heresye can not by anye meanes bee made true and Christian no more then God may be the deuill or the deuill God Which thinges the questionarie Doctors them selues are foreced to confesse namely the Doctor Gabriell In senten lib. dist 25 ¶ Hovv the vvord of God doth allovve and authorise it self T. DEclare vnto me I besech thee somewhat more plainly that which thou haste alreadye spoken D. Euen so as I iudge not the sunne to be bryght because that other men iudge it so and that I haue heard so saye but for that he is so of his nature and declareth himselfe such an one by his light and in fine because I can not say the contrary no in dede although I woulde euen in lyke sorte I beleue not in the worde of God ne yet holde it for certayne and true and for the inchaungeable will of God by the authoritie of any man what so euer he bee but because that God who lightneth the eyes and geueth vnderstanding to litle ones Psalm xix hath illumined me by the light of the same hath constrayned me to acknowledge it such as it is and to beleue it and I may not otherwyse do if I be of the children of God and led and gouerned by his spirite For if I be of the children of God God hath geuen me eyes by the meanes of his holy spirite to see this lighte And albeit that I can not see it if God do not geue me eyes to behold it and that he do not open them yet notwithstanding hauing receaued this same of God it can in no wise be shewed but that I muste acknowledge and receaue it I can not heare the voyce of God my father ne yet of Iesus Christ my shepeherd but that I must vnderstande it and follow it if I be of the children of God Iohn 8. 10 and of the sheepe of Christ For he that is of God as Iesus Christe sayeth he heareth the worde of God and the sheepe heare and vnderstande and knowe the voyce of their shepeheard ¶ VVhat goodnes men maye receaue by a good Councell and vvhat euill may happen vnto them by an euill Councell accordinglye as they haue bene instructed in the Christian religion T. I Graunt that all that which thou haste sayd bee true yet because that God will be serued by the ministerie of men to make his voyce to be heard in his Church thou canst not denie but that the Councell may doe much good if it be of God to shewe forth the light of the truth to many which knowe it not nor as yet can see it D. I denie not that but this onely do I saye that if we may haue meanes to be illumined before that tyme we oughte not to haue a pleasure in tarying in our blindnesse vntill that time but ought by all meanes to trauaile to receaue lighte with all speede possible considering that God doth geue vs so many other meanes whereby to receaue it and y◠for those causes which haue bene before alledged T. I do not greatly denie that D. And on the contrary if it so come to passe that the Councell decree any thing against the doctrine of our Lord Iesus Christ as it hath oftentimes come to passe in times passed and as it is plaine that it shall come to passe in the Councell of Trent if the ende do aunswere his beginning if thou hast not bene alreadye well instructed but hast bene nourished in superstition and idolatrye and being in that estate doest trust in men thou art sure that the Councel shall serue thee for no purpose but onely to confirm thee more stronglye in thine errours and continuallye to seduce thee more and more And for so much as the seduction being armed with the apparaunce of the Councell shall haue more authoritie so much shall it be the more daungerous and shall take the deper roote in thy hart But if thou hast beene once well instructed and well resolued thou shalt be thē out of this daunger for that fayth that is founded on Iesus Christ and on his woorde is so firme and stronge that in Math xvi deede all the infernall powers are able to doe nothyng against it ¶ In vvhat thing and hovve farre the good Councells maye bridle the audacitie of the vvicked geue quietnes to men T. ALthough there be greate apparence in that that thou sayest yet notwithstanding it semeth to me that thou hast not wel satisfied min two points wherin a mā might replie For if the Councel conclude in that fauour of the truth it shall be greatlye to purpose for the faythfull to represse to holde with closed mouthes the rebells the wilfull ones the heretikes and the Schismatiks And as touching the other poynt which thou doest prepone concerning the inconuenience that may happen of an euill Councell What answere wouldest thou make to those which doe affirme that the Councell can not erre D. I wil first answere to thy first poynt then after that we wil come to the second If the Coūcell do refrayne make the enemies of the truth to hold their peace yet for all that it can not chaunge their euill hartes but that they wil secretly perseuer in their errours awayting som more mete occasion They wil do as the Arians the other heretiks did who for a time did hold their peace fering to be punished but immediatly as sone as they might finde any fauor they dyd prepared again their horns did more hurt thē before And think not you at al that the papists would do lesse in these our daies if the Councel were lawfull and that their errours were there condemned euē as they do right well deserue and thou mayest well assure thy selfe that if they were the stronger partie they would sée whether partie had the best swordes before they woulde agree And then if they sawe that they coulde not preuayle they woulde reserue them selues vnto a better oportunitie vntill that tyme that they might mete with some Emperours Kinges princes that they myght seduce by whom they myght be maintayned and to finde the meane to holde some other Councell fit for their purpose to deface and abolishe all that euer should haue bene decreed agaynst them in the other For it would be to greate a griefe to my Lords the Prelates and to the pyllers of the church and to their cosins and frendes and to all those that liue by the hyre of fornications and adultryes of the greate whoore of Babilon whiche are made droncken with the venemous wynes of her fornications made of the tree not of the Lordes vine but of Sodome and Gomorre to leaue their fatte kytchin and to renounce their stalle fedde bellyes which is the God the which they
their kyng and that they had a prince which was an Idolatrer the people forthwith chaūged with the prince and retourned immediatly to their firste Idolatrie as it came to passe vnder Manasses Ioachim and Zedechias And in maner the like happned in the tyme of the heretikes for they did alwayes either loose or ◠Re. xxiiii increase their stoutnes accordyngly as they founde theyr princes T. The auncient histories of the Churche do yelde cleare and perfect witnesse of that whiche thou sayest ¶ Of the hypocrisie of those that depende onely vpon men in matter of Religion and of the proofe therof D. NOw from whence do these sodaine alterations and chaunges procede but that the one sort are enforced through fear to leaue of to set a good face on it as a horse doth whylest a man hath hym shorte rayned in hys brydle whiche after beyng put into the fieldes as soone as he is at libertie or els as a riuer whiche is letted or holden backe by force of rampares whiche floeth forth violently as soone as they are broken The other sorte do chaunge as the prynce doth bycause they dwel vpon the authoritie and doinges of men and not vpon the onely worde of God And therfore I say that euen as the Councels do make the one sorte hypocrites so make they the other disciples of men rather then of Iesus Christ For to receiue a doctrine and to beleue it for the authoritie and apparence of men whiche do alow it that is not properly to beleue the worde of God although it be nothyng els but the very pure Gospell but it is to beleue and wholly to put trust in men For if those men whiche by their authoritie haue moued me to receiue it should happen to forsake it I should be no lesse prest and ready to refuse to shake it of with them then I was to receyue it and to alow it be their meanes We do at this present see very plainly the experience hereof in those Churches whiche here to fore haue bene reformed by the preachyug of the Gospell whiche at thys present haue receyued the Interim and the Masse For that Interim is a very perfect tokē or proofe for mē to know in dede who they be that haue vnfaynedly beleued God and his worde and whiche they be that haue dwelled vpon men and their authoritie and haue receiued the Gospell either through hypocrisie and dissmulation for the loue of men and the hope of their owne gayne and fleshly libertie or els by perfect fayth and true simplicitie of harte and by that very persuasiō of the spirit of God in their conscience for the health of their soules to serue to the glory of God Those men that do chaunge in such sorte their fayth with euery wynde that bloweth do playnly declare that they neuer vnderstood Iesus Christ very well when he sayd Be Mat. xxiii not ye called masters vpon earth for ye haue a master in heauen to wit Iesus Christ ¶ In vvhat sorte vve may esteme men for masters and teachers and in vvhat maner vve are made the disciples of Iesus Christ or of men T. DOth he therby forbid vs to haue masters to teach vs and to call those masters of whom we receiue instruction D. How should he forbid it consideryng it is he hym selfe that doth teache vs by them that are nothyng els but the ministers of his grace by whom he whiche is our chiefe master doth declare him selfe to vs wherfore should he els haue sent his Prophets Apostles and disciples to teach and preache his holy Gospell vnto vs would he not that we should heare those that he sendeth vnto vs as if it were hym self in proper person that speaketh to vs and doth teach vs Wherfore sayd he then to his Apostles he that receiueth you receiueth me and he that refuseth and despiseth you refuseth Math. x. despiseth me and after immediatly he sheweth the reason For it is not you that speake but the spirite of your heauenly father that speaketh in you T. What is there to be vnderstode by these how may we both haue and not haue masters vpon the earth D. Yf by hearynge those that he sendeth vnto vs we receiue the doctrine whiche they preach vnto vs and beleue the same not for their sake that speake vnto vs ne yet for their great authoritie and apparēce neither for the opinion that we haue of them either to please them or els to receiue some worldly honor or profit at their hāds but onely bycause it is the pure and true word of God and that we heare that voyce of Iesus Christ our shepheard throughe their mouth beyng certayne and assured by his holy spirite that it is he that speaketh in them we are not then the disciples of men but of Christ And then is that same fulfilled in vs whiche our Lorde Iesus Christe alledgeth of the Prophete Esaye and that whiche hee him selfe expoundeth in the Gospell of S. Iohn And thy sonnes shal be all taught Esay iiii◠Iohn 6 of God Then who soeuer hath heard and lerned of the father commeth to me For when we beleue hauyng bene so taught by God it is for his sake that we do receyue the doctrine Psal lxxx◠and we take him for our master and not the men all beit that he doth communicate his name vnto thē bycause that they are his seruauntes and ministers as the name of God is gyuen vnto Iudges Prophetes and to the electe of God bycause that the Image of his maiestie iustice doth shyne and is presente in them although they be continually men and not Gods And on the contrary Yf I beleue the doctrine whiche I heare bycause that Tertullian or Cyprian Origene or Chrisostome Irene or Ambrose Hierome or Augustine Gregory or Isidore Luther or Erasme Eccius or Melancthon Gratian or Peter Lombard master of the sentences Iohn the Scotte or Thomas of Alquine do preache and teach the same vnto me or els bycause that the Popes and Cardinals the Bishops and others whom I esteme riche mighty and wise personages of great vertue and holynes do alowe and cōmend the same or els bycause that the Emperors kynges princes and Lordes the Italians and Spaniardes the Almaignes the Frēche and other nations do beleue it I am then no disciple of Iesus Christ in this doyng but a disciple of men ¶ Of the nature and vertue of true fayth and vvhat difference there is betvvene it and opinion T. ACcordyng to this accompte there are mo disciples of men then of Iesus Christe For there are very fewe whiche haue not greater regarde to men then to any thing els D. Yet notwithstandyng if it be so their fayth to say truth is no faith but opinion as it hath ben already declared For seyng that it is not buylded vpon the authoritie of God and his worde but onely vpon the oppinion whiche I haue of such personages it may be
to erre S. Paule and S. Iohn Iame. i. Act. 3. 14 Gal. 1. 2. Dauid and Ely Esay and Moyses and all the Prophets and Apostles were men like vnto others subiecte to the same infirmities that others were and yet S. Paule doth so authorise his doctrine as hath bene alreadye sayd that he condempneth the Aungels of heauen if they doe gayne saye it Wherfore they conclude that euen so as the Prophets and Apostles were men and yet notwithstanding all their writinges are without errour euen so fareth it with the fathers in all their determinations and Councels D. They conclude veri euel and speak wholy against the sentence of S. Augustin who is as good a christiaÌ„ as any one For they attribute as much to the bokes ordinances of men as to the Canonicall bookes whereupon we oughte to consider that albeit the Prophets and Apostles were men yet notwithstanding there is greate difference betwene them and those that came after them For we are certayne that they spake by the spirit of God and that God hath not suffered any errour to be mingled in their writinges because that he woulde they shoulde be geuen and left to vs for most certayne rules wherby to examine all other doctrines There is yet an other matter besyde this which is well worthye to be noted To wit that if any of those by whom it hath pleased God to be serued in this woorke haue chaunced to committe any faulte in their office the spirite of God hath not hidden it but hath manifestly declared it to the end the men shoulde not so be moued with the authoritie of suche personages that they shoulde followe lies in the steed of the truth and vice in the steede of vertue We haue an euident example hereof in Nathan the Prophet who without hauing demaunded i. Sam. 7 at the mouth of the Lord sayd of his owne onely authoritie and proper councell to Dauid that he shoulde builde the Lordes house and temple wherfore he was rebuked and corrected immediatly the next nyght following by the Lorde who commaunded him to declare the contrarye to Dauid We may also alledge the example of the Prophet which was sent into Beth-el and was kylled by the Lyon i. kings 17 Iob in Iere. xx i. Kings xix Ionas 2 Gal. 2 and that of Iob and of Ieremie who cursed the day of their byrth and also that of Hely and of Ionas so many faults of S. Peter and especially that for the whiche S. Paule reproued him I leaue vntouched a number of others such lyke Now it standeth not so at this present with vs ne yet with the auncient doctors that were before vs. For seing that God woulde that thys rule shoulde be obserued in hys church it coulde not otherwise be but that it must be appoynted by a number of bookes certayne or ells there woulde neuer haue beene any ende Seing then that the Lorde hath once appoynted and allowed thys rule we maye compare vnto it neyther booke nor Councell what so euer they bee For if since the time of the Apostles there hath neuer beene man of what holines or knowledge so euer he were that hath so perfectelye and wel written and taughte as the Prophettes and Apostles didde without faylinge in anye one thinge â–ª wee maye not thincke that it is otherwise in their Councelles and Sinodall statutes then it is in their bookes For those that write such bookes be the very self and same men by whom the Councells are celebrated and holden vnto whom their aduises and opinions are spoken euen as they are couched in their bookes Wherefore they may as wel erre in the one as in the other we must also knowe that the most holy and perfecte men in deede haue not all the giftes of God neyther continuallye nor in all ages ne yet in all things no not those giftes in dede which are geuen vnto them but that GOD doth reueale manye thynges to others and at other tymes ¶ VVhat rule S. Augustine geueth concerning Councells and the vvritinges of the auncient Fathers T. SEing it is so it is very nedeful that we haue some certayne rule wherwith to guide vs in these matters D. I doe thinke that we can not doe better nor follow a better rule when any of these things come in question then to followe the maner of proceding that S. Augustine did vse with Maximine Bishop of the Arrians which would arme himself with the Councell of Arimine againste the conclusion that was made and confyrmed by the holy fathers touching the diuinitie of our Lorde Iesus Christ in the Councell of Nice by the authoritie of the truth as it is sayd and hy the truth of authoritie Tom. 6. Lib. 3. I may not now sayeth he alledge the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councel of Arimine as for a preiudice neyther am I bounde to the authorite of the one nor thou to the authoritie of the other Let vs debate the one matter with the other the one cause with the other the one reason with the other by the authoritye of the Scriptures not by proper and particular witnesse of euery man but by indifferent to vs both Which thing he hath also written in other places as concerning To Paul Epist 112 To Hic 29 Epist the authoritie of the Canonicall bookes agreeth very well with this I will not saith he that thou embrace myne authoritie to the end thou shouldest thinke it necessarie to beleue any thing because that I haue spokeÌ„ it but that thou beleue the Canonicall Scriptures And againe I confesse to thy charitie that I haue learned to beare that honour and reuerence to the onely bookes of the Scriptures which are called Canonicall that I doe beleue assuredlye that no one of the authors of them hath in any one iote of his writinges erred And iâ—â—â—diatlye after he sayth But I read yâ— others in such 〈…〉 what excellencie of holines and doctrine so euer be 〈…〉 I thinke not that which they saye to bee true because that they were of that opinion but because that I am perswaded that that whiche they speake is agreeing to the truth eyther by the Canonicall authors or els by apparaunt reason This is his manner of writing to Saint Hierome And agayne thou seest here howe S. Augustine submitteth the writings of the auncients and the CouÌ„cels to the worde of God and to the determinations therof conteyned in the holy Scriptures and maketh it iudge aboue all T. I do finde the aduise of S. Augustine very good but me thincketh there are other things to be considered in that conference and difference of the auncient Doctors and determinations of the lawfull Councels whereof I woulde gladlye heare the resolution But because that we haue entreated of manye good poyntes touchyng thys matter of Councells it seemeth to me very good for this present hers to make an ende to the end I may haue some little tyme to call to my remembraunce
those thinges whereof we haue alreadye discoursed to that purpose and because I will not be to tedious vnto thee D. Feare not to demaunde of me for there is nothing that I doe more willinglye T. I know that wel but I should be to much discourtese and rude if I shoulde haue no regarde nor spare thee more then thou wouldest spare thy selfe Moreouer it is not suffiiâ—ent for me to heare onely as doe many scholers whiche charge them selues with moe lessons then their capacitie may endure doing nothing but heare without profitting or learning of any thing D. Thou haste reason in that that thou sayest ⧠The effect of the thyrd Dialogue intitled the authoritie of Councells making mention of the auncient doctors and decrees I Doe conteyne in this Dialogue following the matter of Councels concernyng theyr authoritie alledging many examples of auncient hystories by the which I doe shewe the greate contrarietye that hath beene betwene many Councels and many decrées and Canons as wel of them as of Romishe Popes There is in the same also mention made of the libertie geueÌ„ to Christians for to reforme the abuses that shall happen in religion and of the duetie that euery man doth owe to the same and of the attent of them that do attend vpon those that are called the prelates of the church Likewise of the lawefull assembles that are made in the name of Christ and of the gift of Prophecie and of the promise of God and to whom and vppon what condition Moreouer of the authoritie of the true and lawfull Councels which must be holdeÌ„ to be the very rule and lyne to rule all others and what proceeding and order the Pope and his do obserue in theirs And as touching the rest euery man may the more easely vnderstand the other poyntes and matters thâ—t therin are entreated of by the litle summes or titles by the which we haue packed theÌ„ together shortly declaring them in order euen as we haue done in the Dialognes going before It is easye to iudge by thys som why I haue geuen thys title to thys Dialogue ⧠The thyrd Dialogue intitled the authoritie of Councells ¶ Of the asistance of the holy Ghost in lavvful Councels and of his giftes and of the perpetual conseruation of the truth in the church Tymothe Daniell IF thou haddest tyme I woulde verye gladlye that thou wouldest continue those matters of the which we did discourse at our laste departure of the one from the other D. I am readye when so euer thou wilte be ready to heare And therfore declare what thou haste to saye as touching the writings of the auncient Fathers and Doctors what difference there ought to be put betwene them and the decrées passed and determined in the lawfull Councells T. When these good fathers and auncient doctors do teach or write any thing in particular they may more easely erre being as particulars theÌ„ when they are assembled together at the Councel in the which the spirit of God doth assiste in greater effecte and vertue in so much as the giftes graces which he hath geuen to euery member of the body of Iesus Christ are all there together euen as it were in one perfecte Roma xii i. Cor. xii Ephe. 4 i Sam. 10 body Wherefore the one helpeth the other and euery man feeleth the more presently the vertue of the spirit of God in himself For if Saule which was forsaken of God dyd prophecie among the Prophets after that he was come into their companies in such sort that it became a common prouerbe among the Hebrewes and it was sayd is not Saule also amongest the Prophets Is it not more like to be true that God will geue the spirite of prophecie to them that come together to the Councell for his glory and for the edification of the Church For where is it that the promises by the which God doth promyse his perpetuall assistaunce and an euerlasting course of truth to his church shoulde haue place if not in such a company Hath he not sayd behold my couenaunt which I haue made with them My spirit which is in thee and my wordes which I haue put into thy mouth shal Esay iix not depart froÌ„ thy mouth nor froÌ„ the mouth of thy seede foreuer And agayne he will geue you an other comforter the spirit of truth to the end that he tarye with you And he shal Iohn xiiii lead you in the knowledge of all truth D. I will not vtterly denie al that thou saiest if they come together to that end that thou speakest of But al Synedes Seanes and Councels haue not alwayes ben assembled in the name of Iesus Christ The examples which are in the ecclesiasticall hystoryes doe witnesse the same and the Canons and decrees which haue bene ordayned and concluded in them For oftentimes they repugne the one to the other as much as do the fyre and water ¶ VVhat thynges there are to be desired in Councells yea euen in those Councells vvhich haue beene moste excellent and lavvfull of all those that haue bene celebrated and holden since the tyme of the Apostles T. I Would very gladly that thou wouldest proue by some examples worthy of fayth that which thou now sayest D. Euen those same that haue bene most lawfullye assembled although thei haue ordained established very good things founded vpon the word of God and that they haue mightelye defended the cause of the truth that God hath not suffered them to erre in the chiefe pointes in matters that are properly the very substance of religion and do concerne the articles of the fayth necessarye vnto saluation yet doth it not follow for all that but that they may haue erred in some thinges that they may haue made constitutions that somtime are more contrary to the word of God theÌ„ coÌ„formable And without seking any further we nede but to examine the Canons decrées ordinaunces of the Councell of Nice which is accompted the chiefe of all next to the Councell of the Apostles of all that reste consequently which men thinke to be that most perfect certayn most worthy of credite and it shall be easye to iudge if euery of theÌ„ hold in al respectes the Apostolike maiestie authoritie how farre of they are oftentimes froÌ„ the puritie of doctrine which was in the primitiue church For God would not do vnto others that honour which he hath done to his Prophets Apostles to the end that the humaine authoritie should not be coÌ„parable to the deuine which ought alwaies to be preferred How many lawes constitutions may men fynde made in these Councels which draw more nere to mans wysedome or to Iewishe and Paganishe supersticion then to the simplicitie of the doctrine of the Apostles I speake of the verye same that haue bene decreed by those Councells that are best allowed in the church of God and Christ and are worthye to bee esteemed
â—ges whiche haue ben ordeyned by the Councels all be it she do glory in them yea in the most auncient and that the Councell of Antioche chap. 20. and the Councell Agathense chap. 71. haue also ordeyned and after confirmed T. It were good holdyng of suche Councels For in the meane tyme our aduersaries those whiche are out of the way straungers to the true Church of Christ would do nothyng but scoffe and mocke as they now do and would holde other Councels to condempne all that should be determined in the true Councels as the Scribes and Phariseis the Byshops and Priests of Ierusalem did condempne all the doctrine of the Apostles of the Christian Churche by thers ¶ Of the Councels of the heretikes vvhiche did coÌ„dempne the Councels of the faythfull D. THat whiche thou sayest is no new thyng for in tyme passed the Councell of Arrimine did condempne al that Hist Tri. li. â— c. 10. 21 was determined and agreed vpon in the Councell of Nice And although it were a generall Councell and had in it sixe hundred Bishops yet notwithstaÌ„ding it erred with Arrius and did approue his doctrine which before was condeÌ„pned by the Councell of Nice And albeit the Arrians sought nothyng els but to abolishe the faith of the diuinitie of Christ agreed vpon at the Councell of Nice yet notwithstanding they would arme them with the authoritie of the same CouÌ„cell to cause the Confession of their faith vnder that colour to be receyued whiche they had made there cleane contrary to that whiche they there made lyke very vniust and false men And was not in maner the lyke done at the Councell of Philopole in Thrace by the Arrians against the CouÌ„cell of Saraice holden in Illyrye And did not the second Councell hist tri li. 4. c 24 hist Tri. lib 3. c 9. lib. 3. c. 16 34 of Ephese also erre with Eutiches and Dioscorus T. And as touchyng the Councell of Arrimine thou knowest that it was deuided as was the CouÌ„cel of Seleucie in Isaurie in the whiche a hundred and three score Bishops gathered them selues together agaynst the Councell of Nice for the ArriaÌ„s gathered them together on the one part and the true and faithful on the other part Moreouer it is said that the Councell of Arrimine was not lawful for so much as it was called agaynst the minde of Liberius Pope of Rome by meanes of the heretikes who had on their side the Prouost Taurus whiche did so presse and insiste to the same by prayers and by threatninges by the coÌ„maundement of the Hist Tri. li. â— c. 36 Emperour who fauored the ArriaÌ„s They say also that the simple Bishops of the West were taken vnprouided and seduced by the disceites subtilities of the heretikes And therfore after that they had well knowen them they did retracte that whiche was concluded at Arrimine They say the lyke of the Councell of Milane holden by the commaundement of Constance the Emperour whiche was an Arrian to procure the condempnation of Athanase that worthy defender of the Christian faith at the whiche Deonice Eusebe Paulin Hillarie and diuers others were also chased froÌ„ thence hist trip lib 4. c. 10. bycause they would not subscribe to his condeÌ„pnation neither agree thereunto D. Thou mayest also well ioyne to these the CouÌ„cel of Antioche holden vnder Constantius the Emperour an Arrian with foure score and ten Bishops in the whiche Athanase was deposed from his Bishopricke of Alexandrie and condempned being absent to exile in which exile he continued as some do write about vi yeares hiddeÌ„ in a cesterne without seyng the sunne whiche thyngs were done chiefly at the procurement of Eusebius Bishop of Nicomedie which ruled the Emperour Constantius of whom before that tyme he had obtayned a Councell at Constantinople agaynst Alexander Bishop of that place to coÌ„strayne him to receiue Arrius or els to chase him from thence if he Hist Eccle. lib. 10. c. 13. did resiste it And the Councell of Cypre was it not holden for the pleasure of Theophile Byshop of Alexandrie onely to chase Chrisostome from his Church to haue him banished whiche thyng he did obtayne hauing in deede seduced Hist Tri. li. 10 a. c. 8 Vsque ad 18. Socr hist eccles li. 9 c 15 21 Epyphanius a man of great iudgement and authoritie to be serued of him in so wicked an enterprise And the Councel holden in Sidone in the tyme of the Emperour Anastase did it not condempne the Councell of Chalcedonie T. And the Councell of Ephese of the whiche thou hast already spoken was it not holden by the heretickes among whom Dioscorus did preside Wherfore it was not a lawful CouÌ„cell nor in a meete place And therefore the Popes Legates Niceph in â—nast hist eccle lib 2 cap 2 Ambassadours wold not be at it but it was afterward coÌ„dempned by the Councel of Chalcedonie Seyng theÌ„ that these Councels were not lawfully gathered nor accordyng to the ordinaunce of the holy Ghost but were celebrated by heretickes it is no meruell although they erred ¶ Hovve it doth appeare by the contradictions vvhiche haue ben in the auncient Councels that the Councels may erre and hovv their conclusions haue in maner alvvayes bene conformable to the opinioÌ„s of those vvhich haue presided in them or haue bene the strongest D. NO more do I approue them but al that yet hath ben said of these matters do coÌ„firm my saying For we see playnly by that that Councels may erre and that they are not sufficient to appease the dissentions and troubles of Christendome and to assure the consciences of men For al beit that those same haue ben contrarie the one sorte to the others yet notwithstaÌ„dyng they do all boast that they were gouerned and directed by the holy Ghost There were also in them men of great apparence of wisedom of vertue and of holynes from all parts to gyue them greate shewe They semed to be gathered in such sorte as lawful CouÌ„cels ought to be or at the least they had euer one of them whiche were estemed the chief heades of Christendome to call them together since the Church hath had Emperours Kynges Christian princes the authoritie hath ben geuen them to assemble the Councels bycause they had better meanes to do it then others had by reason of the power whiche God gaue vnto them Which thyng in deede was obserued in all generall Councels vntill the viii that was holden in the time of the Emperour Basile as it doth wel appeare by that which is writen in that same Councell Act. 5. And if there haue ben any holden by the coÌ„maundementes of the Emperours at the whiche the Bishops Romishe Popes or theyr Legates did not assiste then woulde the Popes also holde others by their authoritie without the Emperours despising the authoritie of them rebellyng and makyng others to rebell agaynst them as hath ben already sayde And althoughe the
T. I know it certainly so to be ¶ Of the causes for the vvhich God did allovve and confirme vvyth such authoritie the ministery of Moyses and hovv hard it is to bring men vnder those lavves by the vvhich mens liues ought to be gouerned and directed D. SEing then it is so and that God woulde euen at once geue such testimony of hys heauenly doctrine and of the ministery of all the Ministers by whom he would haue it declared to men it is no maruel if his good pleasure were once to shew him selfe in such maiesty vnto such a company to the ende that no man might iustlye afterwarde take occasion to doubt of that doctrine of God and to reproche Moyses as if he had framed these lawes of hys owne head which he had brought to the people of Israell and that he should haue made them beleue that he had receaued them of God as many Heathen lawmakers haue made theyrs to be beleued and as manye false Prophetes haue done of their drcames and false doctrine For they did well knowe that men were of such nature that they would not willing ly become subiect but onelye vnto him whom they thought to be greater then them selues wherfore hardly wil a man make him selfe subiect to a man to lyue according to hys wyll and pleasure if he be not thereunto enforced If it be done but by constrainte it is but during the time that he is the weakest For as soone as he can finde anye occasion to cast that yoke from him he wil not misse to doo it with all his power T. We see dayly experience sufficiently of this For how caÌ„ one submit himself willingly vnto a maÌ„ whoÌ„ he estemeth to be his fellow and equal to himselfe and not his master and superior when he wil not willingly submit himselfe to God his Creator his Master his Lord and Soueraigne Prince ne yet vnto his lawes D. Thou mayest haue a iudgement by that but albeit that man wil not willingly yelde himselfe subiect neither to God ne yet to men Yet notwithstanding if he must needes haue a Lorde and to lyue accordinge to the wyl and minde of an other and not of himselfe yet is hys hart so cruel and stubburne that he thinketh it greater dishonour to submit himselfe to such as he is himselfe then to his superiour and to man then to God On the other side whatsoeuer darkenes is fallen into the vnderstanding of man by meane of synne yet for all that ther remaineth a certayne impression of the knowledge of God in the hart of man which compelleth them al to acknowledge that ther is a souerain and diuine power vnto the whiche it muste needes bee that euerye man be subiect wyll he nyll he and that this soueraigne power is God eternal Wherfore ther is none howe wicked so euer he be if he be not at all more brutall then the brute beastes that is not somwhat moued when the authoritye of God is alledged and that feareth not punishment when it is geueÌ„ him to vnderstand that God hath commaunded or forbidden that which is proponed if he say or do the contrarye chiefly when we haue a good opinion that we thinke wel of them that speake vnto vs. T. It is very true ¶ Of the faynings and subtilties that the Pagan lavv makers and the false prophets haue vsed to authorise their lavves and doctrine vnder the cloke of Gods name D. FOr that cause Zoroaster the lawmaker of the Bactrianes and Persians gaue them to vnderstand that he had receiued of the god Oromasis those lawes which hee gaue vnto them Licurgus the Lacedemonian law gyuer did the like fathering his vpon the god Appollo Minos the law geuer of the Cretians which now are called Candians did fayne to haue receiued hys of the god Iupiter Numa Pompilius for the like cause did fayne hymself also to haue conference with the Nimph and goddesse Aegera and that he receiued of her the lawes which he gaue to the Romaines chiefly those that touched the religion â—amolris the law maker of the Scythiens hath also reported his to be of the goodesse Vesta And Mahomet by whom the Turks haue bene seduced which haue had partly their originall from the Scythyans how manye finesses he hath vsed to authorise his Alcoran and making them beleue that it was sent from heauen And all the false Prophetes and seducers haue not inueÌ„ted a litle And the Romish Antechrist companion to Mahomet hath not he obserued the same order not onely to geue so much authority to his tradicions as to the word of God and to cause them to be receiued for the woorde of God but also to make him selfe Iudge of the holy Scriptures and of their meaninges vnder shadow of the promes which Iesus Christ did make to Iohn 14. 15. 16. his Apostles to send vnto them the holy ghost and to direct and gouerne his church by hym as thoughe that which is spoken of the true church of Iesus Christ and of the Ministery therof did appertaine to that Antechrist and to hys Ministers Their conclusion is euen as good as if a man would conclude in this sorte The holye ghost was promised and geuen to the Patriarches Prophetes to the true Church of Israel that therfore it must follow that Ierobo am and hys Priestes and Achab Iesabel and their false prophets were inspired and directed by the spirite of God and Annas and Cayphas the Scribes and Pharyses and all the councel and the Synagoge of the Iewes which did condemne Iesus Christ and his Apostles that Micheas Elias Iesus Christ and his Apostles which stoode against them being so small a number against so great a multitude were heretickes For these men had the Kinges and Princes on their sides and did supplye the place and seate of the true Patriarches and prophets vnto whom and by whom the promesses were made by God and were in dede of their own race and blood Al be it that the Pope hath no such coulour as they had he hath notwithstanding armed himselfe with the authority of God as they did For he did wel know that if men had not had such perswasion of him and of his doctrine he and his shoulde neuer haue growen to such authority as they are come vnto T. That is not to be doubted ¶ Of the testimonies that God hath geuen to Moyses of hys vocation and how necessary it vvas D. NOwe it is not so with Moyses as it is wyth these men for Moyses was not onely auowed by God by word and by his own authoritye but God did geue vnto him letters and seales and this not onelye once or twyse Exo. xix but often times And to the end that he would leaue the les occasion to doubt either of the letters or of the seales hee came in proper person to ratify al that by his own mouth and that not in secrete or els before two or three
truth wittingly 14. 15 Of such as do resist the truth and persecute it through ignoraÌ„ce 1516 How that the want of the knowledge of god his truth 15. 17 Of the great care and diligence that is in men 17. 18 Of the diligence that is in men to do euyll 18. 19 Of the vices that make men ignorant of god of his truth 19. 20 Of such as do contemn the knowledge of God 20 21 Of the tru knowlege of god 22. 22 Of the true study of the holy scriptures 23. 23 Of such Christians as are ignoraÌ„t of the word of God 23. 24 How much necessary the study of the word of God is 25. 25 Of the desired ignorance 26. 26 How that the publicatioÌ„ that God hath made of hys word 27. 27 Of the meanes by which god hath and doth declare him selfe dayly to men 27. 28 Of those that cloke their rebellion agaynst the woord and wyll of God 28. 29 Of those whiche coÌ„mit idolatries to their princes 30. 30 Of the offices of good princes and good subiectes 31. 31 How those men obey the deuill not their princes 32. 32 Of lawfull lawes of Christian Princes 33. 33 Of vnfaythful seruantes to Princes of their councels â–ª agaynste God 34. 34 Of the iudgement of the Christian doctrine and by whom it must be reported 35. 35 Of the causes why the Princes shuld enquire of the wil of god at the mouth of his ministers 37. 36 Dishonour done to God by suche as vouchsafe not to enquire of his wyl at the handes of his ministers 38. 37 What meane and order Princes ought to kepe in iudgmeÌ„t of thinges apertaining to religioÌ„ 39. 38 Howe men ought to haue greater care for matters appertayning to religion 41. 39 How that men make more accouÌ„t of their promises then of theyr consciences 42. 40 Of the care that ought to be had to know yâ— way of saluatioÌ„ 44. 41 Admonitions in the holye Scriptures against false Prophetes 45. 42 How great busines letteth yâ— hearing of the word of God 46. 43. Meanes to aduaunce or hinder the busines of men 48. 44. Mockers and haters of the Gospel and wil seme no. 49. 45 Of Epicurians amoÌ„g the Christians their diuersitie 50. 46 Testimonies of Epicurians of Gods prouidence iustice against their false opinions 51. 47 Light of gods worde geuen to meÌ„ the nature of the same 52. 48 The authoritie of holy scripture 53. 49. Diuelish peruersitie of EpicuriaÌ„s their agreement with the doctrine of Mahomet 56. 50 Of mans traditions 57. 51 How we ought not to do yâ— which semeth good onely in our owne sight and opinion 58. 52 Of the workes that are done to a good intent 60. 53 To vnderstand whether god haue ordained sundry religions or no 61. 54 Of the causes of the diuersitie of the positine lawes 62. 55 Of the agreemente of the positiue lawes wyth the Ceremoniall lawes 63. 56 What libertie God hath geuen in the vsage of ceremonies 65. 57. ⧠The second Dialogue OF the reasons which cause manye to desire and wayte for a Councell 68. 1 Of the difference that is in Christendom in matters of religion and what it doth 69. 2 What profite the Church of God may receiue of Councels and of their issues 70. 3 Of the hope that menne may haue of the couÌ„cel in these daies 72. 4 Of the meanes of the enemies of the truth for the maintenance of their kingdoÌ„ false religioÌ„ 73. 5 Of the dauÌ„ger into the which they cast theÌ„selues which atteÌ„d onelye vpon Councels 74. 6 Of christiaÌ„ princes to reforme the Church by meane of a generall â—oâ—â—cell 75. 7 Of 〈◊〉 negligence and want that 〈◊〉 â—he ministers of the church 76. 8 Of the empeachments of men in yâ— reformatioÌ„ of the church 78. 9 How difficulte it is to assemble a lawful CouÌ„cel at this day 79. 10 How the Christians hinder the reformation of the Church 81. 11 What Councel the true christians ought to follow 83. 12 Of such as woulde agree the doctrine of Iesus Christe and that of Antichrist together 84. 13 The Interim maye not be receyued neither into the Churche of christ ne yet of Antichrist 85. 14 Of such christians as be Newters and indifferent 86. 15 For what cause the Interim hath his name of an aduerbe 88. 16 The profite that those that be instructed in Gods word may receiue by the Councels 89. 17 We oght not to be the disciples of meÌ„ but of Iesus Christ 90. 18 The word of God dothe authorise it selfe 92. 19 What goodnes men may receyue of a good CouÌ„cel and what euil of an euil Councel 93. 20 What the good Councels may do to the wycked 94. 21 What frute the church may receue of the lawful Councels 96. 22 What prayse is due to good princes and magistrates 97. 23 Hipocrisy of such as depend vpon meÌ„ in matter of religion 98. 24 How we are disciples of men and how of Iesus Christ 100. 25 Of the nature and vertue of true fayth 101. 26 Of the honor that is due to good true teachers in the church 103. 27 Of the diffâ—rence of the apostles prophets and of those that came after them 105. 28 The Councell of S. Auâ—â—â—â—yne concerning Councels 〈◊〉 â—â—itings of the Fathers 〈…〉 ⧠The third Dialogue intituled The authoritie of Councels OF the assistance of the holy ghost in lawful Councels 109. 1 What is to be desyred in CouÌ„cels those which are most excellent 111. 2 Of the weakenesses which wer in the Councel of Nice 112. 3 Of the contrarieties betwene the bishoppes ministers that haue bene in many aunciente Councels 113. 4 Of the contradictioÌ„s of the popes and their decrees 114. 5 Of the contrarietie of the decrees of many Councels 116. 6 Of the contrarictie of certain couÌ„cels concernyng the difference of meates 118. 7 Of the decrees of the Councels of Constance and Basle touchyng the Lordes supper vnder bothe kyndes 119. 8 Contrarietie in many CouÌ„cels coÌ„cernyng Images 120. 9 Of the Councel of Carthage concerning the Baptisme administred by heretiques 121. 10 OpinioÌ„ of the papists concerning general and particular CouÌ„cels 122. 11 Of the abuses and errors whiche haue ben broght into the church 122. 12 Of those that would haue the prelates of the church to correct the abuses that therin are 124. 13 Thinges of them selues sufficiently resolued without resolution of the Councel 125. 14 The liberty of Christians in reforming abuses 127. 15 The passages which the Papistes alledge to authorise their Councels 129. 16 The holy ghost is not bounde to any kind of persoÌ„ or estate 1â—9 17 Of the asseÌ„bles of yâ— faithful 131. 18 Of the Councels of the hereticks condemning the CouÌ„cels of the faythful 132. 19 The contradicions of the auncieÌ„t Councels declare that the councels may erre 134. 20 No hope for the ChristiaÌ„s to haue a lawful Councel 136. 21 What praiers men ought to make for their