what meane you by them of whom where when vpon what grounds why a rambling logodiarrhe without wit or reason Edicta Principum Decreta Synodorum And iudicia pro tribunali are of large extent of different alotment For against God Equity Truth and Honesty what an idle discourse is it thus to shoote your bolts as boyes doe stones to make Duckes and Drakes vpon the surface of the water to glide smoothly for two or three grasings and then sinke to the bottome without any more adoe Adde quantity to iudgements Decrees Edicts wee shall know what you would say and so answere As for humane wisedome that helpe on our right hand haue you such cause to boast we haue no sense nor reason I thinke you doe not find vs such arrant fooles as vtterly destitute of humane indowments If you doe the better for you You may cary the cause against vs without more adoe Customes we haue many of the better sort not all your anticke fits and gesticulations You haue not all antiquity had you haue many they neuer saw Silly man know you not most customes doe and may vary keepe your owne if you please we are not so wedded to them nor to all ours but vpon reason we haue will and may change by better warrant then you can auoide As for multitude we dare drip Siders with you old and late but these are meere flashes of your Catholike vanity I haue said it often I repeate it in the close that you may remember it the better at least you shall find that is my selfe that will ioyne issue with you when you dare to maintaine the doctrine of the Church of England and oppose the doctrine of the Romish Church by all of these or any of these Antiquitie Custome Multitude humane wisedome Iudgements Decrees Edicts and Councels If I haue not for me in all or euery one as good and better share and interest for my confession theÌ„ you for yours I wil yeeld As for Miracles Visions and such hobgoblin-stuffe I am contented you appropriate to your owne So did the Gentiles brag of the like as Chrysostome obserueth Orat. 1. in Iudai santes pag. 34. Edit Hesheâ— So did the Donatists as S. Augustine reporteth de notis Ecclesiae ca. 19. Their miracles were then as yours now Figmenta mendacium hominum aut portenta fallacium spirituum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a prouerbiall speech in Athenaeus Fooles may be frighted with Hagges and Fairies men of vnderstanding know it is but knauery At Lauretto Sichem Annuntiada or wheresoeuer we haue the like puppet playes amongst our Catholike neighbours Cachinnantibus daemonijs at such iugling tricks for their aduantage And yet take me not so as if I cast off all miracles I admit I admire them that were true for a true end the ratificatiou of Truth vnto the soule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That such as would not yeeld vnto the word preached might yet be conuicted by that miraculous power saith Clemens in his Constituions This was that the world might beleeue but yet since and euer Chrysostome said true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 One faith and beleefe is to be regulated not by miracles but by the Scripture which on good foundation we defend containes all that is Necessary for our saluation You haue done with your Reader and I with you till we meet againe at the next turne till then farewell A list of the seuerall errors imputed to the PROTESTANTS by this Gagger being so many Lyes I. THey maintaine in the first place that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood II. That in matters of Faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word III. That Apostolicall Traditions and ancient Customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs. IIII. That the Church can erre V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to be in a Tongue not vnderstood by all the Assistants VII That Saint Peter was not the first or chiefe among the Apostles and that none was greater or lesse among the twelue VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed IX That a Woman may bee supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist XI That none but God can forgiue or retaine sinnes XII That we must not confesse our sinnes but onely to God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times XIIII That the Actions and Passions of the Saints doe serue for nothing vnto the Church XV. That no man can doe workes of Supererâ—gation XVI That by the fall of Adam we haue all lost our free-will and that it is not in our owne power either to choose good or eâ—ill XVII That it is impossible to keepe the Commandements of GOD though assisted with his Grace and the holy Ghost XVIII That onely Faith iustifieth and that good workes are not absolutely necessary to Saluation XIX That no good workes are meritorious XX. That Faith once had cannot be lost XXI That God by his will and ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall be damned and who saued XXII That euery man ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation and to hold that hee is of the 〈◊〉 her of the praedestinate XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell keeper XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. XXV That we may not pray vnto them XXVI That the Angels cannot helpe us XXVII That no Saint departed hath afterward appeared to any vpon Earth XXVIII That Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth XXIX That they pray not for vs. XXX That we may not pray to them XXXI That the bones or reliques of Saints are not to be kept no vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead XXXII That Creatures cannot be sanctified or made more holy then they are already by their owne Nature XXXIII That Children may bee saued by their Parents faith without Baptisme XXXIV That imposition of hands vpon the people called by Catholikes Confirmation is not necessary nor to be vsed XXXV That the bread of the Supper is but a figure of the body of Christ not his body XXXVI That wee ought to receiue vnder both kindes and that one alone sufficeth not XXXVII That sacramentall vnction is not to bee vsed to the Sicke XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy Orders XXXIX That Priests and other religious persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded on holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good XLI That Iesus Christ descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the Soules of
the Roman Church For Saint Gregory vpon the 6. of Ezechiel said If the vnderstanding of holy scripture were playne to all men it would come in time to bee of no reckoning Where hee giueth a reason of that obscurity that is in it Who yet vpon the 6. of Iob more atfull interpreteth his owne meaning thus Sacra scriptura cibus est in locis obscurioribus quia quasi exponendo frangitur et mandendo glutitur Potus vero est in locis apertioribus quià ita sorbetur sicut invenitur The holy Scripture is Meate in the more obscure places because in the expounding thereof it is broken as it were and in chewing swallowed Drinke it is in the more perspicuous places because it is as easily swallowed downe as it is found Thus the doctrine and beliefe of the Roman Church was sometime Scripture in some places is hard in some places easie Hath that Church now forsaken her former faith if not we differ not for we maintaine the easinesse of holy Scripture no otherwise then Saint Gregory the Pope did This Goose may fit the Gagge for his Ganders mouth the Gospell will soone enough be rid of it II. That in matters of faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word I Know no such tenent exclusiuely I know no such Assertion negatiuely the Church of England hath no such faith as this You set vp a Shawfoule for a marke and shoot your bolt at it your selfe alone In our 11. Article put on your spectacles and see if you can reade it we professe The Church hath authority in controuersies of Faith The written word of God is the Rule of Faith with vs. And hath beene so with all our Fathers of old Vnto the Law and vnto the Prophets was a direction of a perpetuall Morallity and is continued in that of our Sauiour Ioh. 5. Search the Scriptures for in them you hope to haue eternall life A rule absolute in it selfe a rule most sufficient vnto vs for that end entended To make the man of God perfect in euery good worke Sufficiunt sanctae et diuinitus inspiratae scripturae saith Athanasius ad omnem institutionem veritatis Truth is of two sorts amongst men manifest and confessed truth or more obscure and inuolued truth In his quae aperte posita sunt in scripturis inveniâ—ntur illa omnia quae continent fidem moresque viuendi spem scilicet charitatem Plainely deliuered in Scripture are all those poynts which belong vnto Faith and manners Hope and Charity to wit And accordingly I doe know no obscurity vpon these I know none of these controuerted inter partes the Articles of our Creede are confessed on both sides and held plaine enough The controuerted poynts are of a larger and an inferiour alloy of them a man may be ignorant without any danger of his soule at all A man may resolue or oppose this way or that way without perill of perishing for euer Now if a question be moued iuris controuersi in controuerted matters who shall decide and settle the doubt you say The Church and so say I nay so say we You say wee say the Scriptures but without the Church that is each priuate mans opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures euen against the Church No such thing Sir you mistake vs. We say the Church must doe it explaining declaring resoluing the Scriptures as the direction is from God himselfe to purpose Deut. 17. 8. and as your Texts and Fathers doe pretend it and no otherwise And yet the Scripture may well be called iudge As the Law determineth Controuersies betwixt man and man In plaine cases iuris positiui no deciding Iudge or legall proceeding shall neede But such as are iuris ambigui controuersi must be determined by the Court by the Iudge according vnto Law So is it in Scripture according to the Protestants opinion In points of Faith they disclaime not the iudgement of the Church nor yet appeale to Scripture alone vnderstood by themselues without a iudge but referre it vnto the Church And they haue reason for it enough seeing Gods Word and the ancient practise of the Catholike Church that is both Law and Iudge are both for them In the name of the Church of England I will be tried thereby and maintaine it against all Papists liuing Take one for all Cyril of Hierusalem in his fourth Catechisme saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In any poynt concerning the diuine and holy mysteries of our Faith not any the least thing must be tendred without warrant of diuine Scripture And he addeth Belieue mee not that speake and deliuer these things vnto you vnlesse for proofe of them I doe bring plaine and euident demonstration out of diuine Writ Was this man a Protestant or a Papist Those Bibles he had then which we haue now and it seemeth that addressing his owne beliefe and doctrine accordingly varied not in iudgement any whit from vs who make Scripture the rule of our beliefe And in doubtfull poynts that require determination appeale vnto the Catholique Church for iudgement in that Rule This is not contrary to any deduction from much lesse to the expresse words of our owne Bible Matt. 23. 2. The Scribes Pharises sit in Moses Chaire all therfore whatsoeuer they bid you obserue that obserue and doe Therefore c. Doe you finde eyther Faith or Iudgement Pastors or Church expresly named in this text Looke once more and looke back vpon your vndertaking Their refutation by expresse words of their owne bible For words expresse you faile vndertaking more than you can performe an ordinary tricke of Catholike Braggadochioes Let vs see if Consequents will hold the tewghing any better Those that answere the Church and her Pastors in your Thesis are the Scribes Pharises in your proofe who whole and some head and taile be Doctors and Pastors of the Church with you But of the Church of Rome it must be supposed for wee disclaime any Conformation at all with them And doe you suppose that our Sauiour approued them so well as that hee would haue had the Iewes in matters of Faith to relye vpon them and their decisions as Pastors of the Church in points of Faith If this were his meaning what meant he then to giue warning elsewhere Take heede of the leauen of the Pharises that is as the holy Ghost expoundeth it Of their doctrine If the question had bin put Art thou the Christ would he haue sent them vnto the Scribes or Pharises for resolution or aduised the people to belieue on them we finde it not practised the contrary we doe What then is this text in consequence vnto the poynt Surely hee meant no more but this and in that hee will declare himselfe a Protestant Whatsoeuer they bid you obserue out of Moses obserue that is so long as they teach but Scripture they must he heard if there they faile
Traditions Act. 16. 4. this is one Act. 15. 29. To abstaine from bloud and strangled Exempt such dishes specified from such dressing haue with you to Masse to Mr. Mayes as I am inuited by Sir A. P◠peraduenture your selfe 2 Tim. 1. 13. We finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the forme of wholesome words in our Bibles And if this be Traditions vnwritten iudge you good Catholiques and set not so high a price vpon this arrant blunderer then whom a verier Goose neuer handled Goose-quill And so goe see if your leasure will serue Fathers that affirme somewhat not what they should The first you must see if you please is Irenaeus Lib. 3. cap. 4. for he will not trouble your seeing with Clemens Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Polycarpus Egesippus Iustinus Martyr all elder than Irenaeus and vaunted of by his good masters and no doubt as much to poynt as Irenaeus who yet is held to be resolute and irrefrageable in that place Propter quod oportet deuitare quidem illos quae autem sunt Ecclesiae cum summâ diligentia deligere apprehendere veritatis Traditionem For which cause wee must shun and eschew them but with all possible diligence make choyce of the things belonging to the Church and lay hold vpon the Tradition of truth Which Tradition is no other thing but the rule of our faith The holy Scripture nothing vnwritten vncertaine beside much lesse against Scripture This is somewhat in your opinion but that which is the thing intended indeede is this which followeth in Irenaeus Et si quibus de aliquâ modicâ quaestione disceptatio esset nonne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum re liquidum est Thus hee questioneth I answere affirmatiuely yes No doubt we ought for resolution in poynts of doubtfull controuersie relye vpon that decision of the eldest Churches Doe we refuse this triall good Sir Gagger Where you will in what poynt you will I vndertake thus to iustifie the Church of England name you the Controuersie one or moe and maintaine the contrary if you can or dare The question is not with Irenaeus what must be Law but how the Law is to be expounded and interpreted Scripture the Law and Tradition the Interpretation that is the perpetuall praxis of the Church to expound the doubtfull texts of Scripture But Irenaeus proceedeth farther than so it will be said For What if the Apostles had left vs no writing at all Nonne oportet ordinem sequi Traditionis quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias Farther indeede but to no purpose this is vpon supposition If it had been so which is not so nor could be so Secondly it followeth not that because if God had not giuen Israei a Law it is probable hee would haue continued his former course with Abraham Isaac and the Patriarchs therefore when he had giuen them his Law they were still to looke for immediate or Angelicall Reuelations as before No more is it consequent to reason pietie or Irenaeus intent that albeit if no Scripture had beene written onely Tradition must haue beene followed therefore Scripture being written wee should as otherwise addresse our selues vnto Tradition But thirdly wee come home to poynt Shew vs any thing tendred by those Ecclesiae antiquissimae to be belieued and obserued and see if wee respect it not as well and as much as you Till you shew vs such Traditions leaue your prating idlely at randome touching worth and weight and vse and authoritie of Traditions Your Traditions tendred in these dayes are onely in name as Simon Magus was and Simon Peter the same no more of credite than hee of pietie both alike Origen is next to be seene in cap. 6. ad Roman Hee calleth Baptisme of Infants a Tradition and let it be so It is the vniuersall iudgement and most ancient practise of the Catholique Church deduced at least from Scripture if not proued in Scripture as the controuersor himselfe confesseth Be it a Tradition it is more for our aduantage than otherwise For we admit receiue defend and practise it which must needes giue the lye vnto your proposition That according to the Doctrine of the Protestants Apostolicall traditions ancient customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige For the World knoweth your brazen face will blush to deny it wee receiue it practise it are obliged by it S. Damascen may stand by vnlesse you meane to make your friends with him a childe in yeares of yesterdayes birth in respect of those old Heroes of the Primitiue times Not that he saith any thing Lib. 4. cap. 17. more than an other or more effectuall and to purpose but because he is not of that desert or esteeme to be ranked with the Fathers of the Primitiue times being long post natus and a Partian many wayes for which cause I answere him not S. Chrysostome is peremptory and through for Traditions In 2. ad Thessal 2. vers 16. he saith Hence it is plaine and apparant that the Apostles deliuered not all in writing but very many things without booke Thus hee but to what end For no Protestant liuing in his right wits will deny this That the Apostles spake much more then is written And whatsoeuer they spake as Apostles in execution of their Ministery is of equall authority with that which they wrote For inke and paper conferre no authoritie or validity beyond the subiect and author of the writing Therefore the Tradition of the Apostles and of the Church is without all question of good credite and esteeme and so much wee professe Art 34. I graunt it hath displeased some which is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is Tradition which auoweth it seeke no further I see no reason why any should be so displeased therewith For if it be a Tradition of the Catholique Church and such Traditions onely hee meaneth Chrysostome saith there no more than hee may No more than Augustine and Tertullian haue said It is Tradition I goe no further No more will◠in any thing for my part I promise you that is controuerted betwixt you and vs at this day Make that appeare which you propose to haue been a Tradition of the Catholique Church and you and I shall soone agree shake hands and no more adoe Saint Basil you haue kept for the close it seemeth and for the vpshot of all and he indeed is in the place remembred very much for all Traditions vnwritten deriued to the Church from the Apostles I know some Protestants especially of preciser cut doe discredit the Author as a Counterfeit onely vpon Erasmus bare word who sauoured some discongruity which I could neuer finde of stile I am not of that or their minde Others being at a stand because of their owne priuate fancies oppose Saint Basil vnto Saint Basil For my part I beleeue
no such allegation nor will I oppose him vnto himselfe Thirdly some goe to it with downe-right reprehension that he gaue too much vnto Traditions and therein erred which censure and taxation is too surly I like not that the ancient Fathers should so be philipped off and sent away like schoole-boyes with snips that most learned religious and most iudicious Writer saith no more then is iustifiable touching Traditions For thus he The Doctrine of the Church is two wayes deliuered vnto vs First by writing then by Tradition from hand to hand both are of like value vnto piety And this is true if certainly both come from the same Author to the same intent and purpose for writing and speaking doe not vnder or ouer-value a thing In Edicts and Precepts and Proclamations from a Prince some haue his minde his words his hand-writing other his minde and words all his hand others his minde onely and no more being conceiued and penned by a Secretary of State according to directions yet are all the Acts of his Maiesty not of a Seruant or a Subiect To this Basil addeth which some mistake and therefore mislike 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. If wee venture or presume to taxe and reproue vnwritten Customes as not much to be respected wee may vnwittingly and vnwillingly preiudice and that in points of moment and consequence the very Gospell of Christ and bring Preaching to be but a bare name which censure I see no such cause to censure For Saint Basil saith not Take away Tradition and the Gospell is nothing as if the credit and weight and authority of the Gospell were meerely from Tradition but that the Gospell will receiue preiudice thereby Meaning that through Tradition that is the vniuersall consent of the Catholike Church wee are assured that the Gospels of Saint Marke and Saint Luke are diuine and true and that the Gospels of Saint Thomas Saint Bartholmew and others are forged though these were Apostles those but Disciples But 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to what purpose is this for Popish Traditions Is there any of them so commended vnto vs as the Gospell of Saint Luke or Saint Marke is by Tradition Saint Basil saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. that is not some things as you perfidiously relate it but of the Doctrine and Discipline heretofore and yet obserued in the Church part we haue from written instruction and part from the Tradition of the Apostles we haue receiued which hath beene transmitted vnto vs couertly Both which haue the same force vnto piety We admit this saying and professe as much let it be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a perpetuall practice of the Catholique Church of Christ and see what wee will say vnto it Saint Basils first instance in the point is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signe vs with the signe of the Crosse you know wee commend it we practice it we command it we propugne it Euery Baker could haue told you so much that euer had Childe Christened in our Church Aske your acquaintance I make no doubt but you are interessed in some Bakers basket for a toste or a new loafe Bakers and Bottle-ale are so much in your mouth But leaue we you to your Bottle-ale and Baker great Saint Basil that patronizeth you suppose so much your Traditions in his Morals Reg. 12. cap. 2. giueth you this Item remember it well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Wee ought not to follow the Procepts of men so farre as to set by the Commandement of God Hold you here and haue along with you in your Traditions as you will faile here Basil and we leaue to gang alone IIII. That the Church can erre FAst and loose Sir Iugler For why expresse you not plainly what Church you meane when you say that the Church cannot erre or in what things and how far the Church cannot erre Particular and Topicall Churches haue erred such may then and can euen in Fundamentals and so ceased to be any more Churches as those of Galathia Ephesus Philippi Colossae Thessalonica Those vnto whom Saint Iohn sent his Reuelation glorious and goodly in their time but now Cages for vncleane Birds But as touching the Catholique Church take it thus from me The Catholique title includeth two things vniuersality of Time and Place both or vniuersality of Place onely In the former acception take the Church and that Caetus euocatus which hath beene heretofore and which is now make it vp The Apostles their Disciples all their Successors are included And so the Catholique Church hath not did not cannot erre either in Factor Faith Fundamentall or lesse Fundamentall In the second acception according vnto vniuersality of Place The Catholike Church of Christ is twofold Diffusiue or Representatiue in euery part and member in euery place In some speciall parts in one place a generall Councell for the whole or all particulars that make vp the whole The Catholique Church at this day cannot erre in all her parts nor in faciendis matter of fact nor credendis points of beliefe dangerously The Church Representatiue true and lawfull neuer yet erred in Fundamentals and therefore I see no cause but to vouch shee cannot erre in Fundamentals Firmitas enim Fundamenti cui totius Ecclesiae superstruitur altitudo nullâ incumbentis sibi templi mole lassessit Soliditas enim illius fidei quae in Principe Apostolorum est laudata perpetua est Et sicut permanet quod in Christo Petrus credidit ita permanet quod in Petro Christus instituit as well saith Leo Ser. 2. de Assump sua If this be your opinion looke you Let vs see if our Bibles be expresse against this Esay 40. 21. My spirit that is vpon thee and my words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seede saith the Lord from henceforth and for euer In which words if we did defend the Thesis as it is proposed that the Church could erre we might answer this Text doth not perplex vs. For where doe we finde Church or not erre in the Prophet it is but by illation at the most The man bragged of expresse words and can performe no more but consequence And that not necessary For may not it be said This is but a Precept not a Promise as where it was said vnto Iosua and in him vnto the Princes and Rulers of the People The volume of the Law shall not depart from them they shall meditate therein day and night This was an iniunction what they ought to doe not a promise what they should performe or at least but Temporary and Conditionall for they departed from the Law and the Law from them I◠so what assurance of not erring Thirdly Gods promises haue a Condition annexed or implyed euer to be performed by man which if he performe God is bound if hee breake God is free My words
so that the man fighteth with his shadow and taketh a ferne bush for a Foxe to hunt As idle in allegation of his Fathers as impertinent in his Texts of Scripture For these places of August Hierome and Ambrose produced by this iugler to be seene are meerely for another matter and so to that end recited by his instructor C. W. B. a man of more learning and better iudgement to proue that all the best workes of the righteous are not sinnes but truly good workes as proceeding out of a good roote That man had this fellow beene but a gagler would haue afforded him Fathers enough from Ignatius along for many ages to purpose as is specified in this point And yet Ignatius wrote in Greeke and could not vnderstand merit and those that wrote in Latine did vse the word but with no such intent as is supposed nor as is put vpon them by these later Tormentors of other mens meaning The Fathers who vse it tooke vp the word as they found it in ordinary vse and custome with men in those times not for to deserue which in our Language implyeth merit ex condigno but to incur to procure to purchase as Tacitus hath it in the life of Agricola Iijs virtutibus iram Caij Caesaris meritus est By these vertues he incurred the anger of Caius Caesar Which vse of the Tongue the inferior Ages mistaking haue built vp I know not what great Towers of Babel vnto themselues in contestation with and presumption against GOD which the ancient Fathers neuer dreamed of whose ioynt vnaminous and orthodoxall Doctrine is that which we will remember in Leoes words Non de qualitate nostrorum operum pendet coelestium mensura donorum In conclusion touching good workes the Church of England considereth them two wayes Artic. 12. 13. First as they are or may be done before Iustification had and obtained done by men meerely naturall and in the state of alienation from God and then as they are done after Regeneration by the inspiration and assistance of Gods Spirit Concerning the first Workes done before the grace of Christ saith Artic. 13. and the inspiration of his Spirit are not pleasing vnto God for as much as they spring not of Faith in Iesus Christ neither doe they make men meet to receiue Grace or as the Schoole Authors say deserue Grace of congruity Yea rather for that they are not done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done we doubt not but they haue the nature of sinne And so our Conclusion is Good workes thus and in this sort merit not at all vnlesse you meane Hell and Gods wrath For good workes done after Iustification which onely and alone are indeed good workes The Church of England in the 12 Artic. concludeth thus 1. They spring from a true and liuely Faith 2. They declare a true and liuely Faith 3. They are pleasing and acceptable to God 4. They cannot put away our sinnes nor endure the seuerity of Gods iudgement to wit not of themselues considered in themselues no not as issuing from their Fountaine Faith because Rem 〈…〉 ssion is in Christ gratuitum and pardon must preceede before that they can succeede Touching their merit and desert here is concluded nothing but the meaning of the Church in the Doctrine of her Schooles is directly this That the workes of Gods Saints in Faith and Charity are rewardable here and in the World to come both in generall as good workes and in particular as such good workes some more some lesse according to measure and proportion it being a rule in Nature and Grace both that whatsoeuer is receiued is receiued as the Donce can receiue it not as the Donor can conferre it Which procuring of reward at Gods hand both for things Temporall and Eternall the phrase of Antiquity hath called merit vpon the vse of the Tongue in those dayes and no otherwise though much mistaken afterward XX. That faith once had cannot be lost THere is no such Conclusion or Article tendred vnto the Church of England or resolued of vnto vs as of Faith Opinions haue varied and may keepe at large each one contenting himselfe with his owne priuate sobeit hee disturbe not the peace of the Church nor impose his priuate iudgement to be held of all It is held by some I grant that iustifying Faith that excellent gift of God is not conferred vnto any but to the Elect and predestinated vnto life The wicked that perish eternally from God as they neuer were in the state of Grace so neuer were they indued with true Faith Secondly as consequent hereunto that Faith once had cannot be lost or shaken out or off wholy from man but continueth inextinguible indefeisable And therfore thirdly those that once haue been indowed with that Transcendent guift are sure to be saued eternally nor cease to be and stand â—ustified before God These are opinions and defended but not of all Protestants not of the Church of England but opposed and refelled at home abroad as this fellow cannot but know if he know any thing in these points which for the maior part are fitter for Schooles then popular discourses and may be held or not held without heresie either way That Faith once had the propounded Conclusion cannot be lost may be interpreted and is moe wayes then one Whether not lost at all whether totally or finally lost Men are diuided in this Tenent Some suppose neither totally nor finally Some totally but not finally Some both totally and finally Which is indeed the assertion of Antiquity and your Schoole Some perceyuing the current of iudgements for the losse thereof totally and finally and considering also at least probability of Scripture consenting put in a new distinction of God and Man of the first and second causes of Faith and Iustification In regard of Man his weakenesse insufficiency and opposition against him in respect of second causes concurring in this action Faith once had may be lost they say But in regard of God considering his counsell and purpose vnchangeable reflecting on his absolute decree irreuersable faith once had cannot totally or finally be lost nor they perish eternally that were endowed therewith Now which of all these waies will you vnderstand the position Faith had may be lost For my part I know your meaning well enough but you should haue explayned it and not haue couertly rested in ambiguities You meane it may be lost totally and finally in regard of God who made no such absolute irreuersable decree as also in respect of second causes in man both without him and about him and against him I determine nothing in this Question positiuely which the Church of England leaueth at libertie vnto vs though the learnedst in the Church of England assent vnto Antiquity in their Tenent which the Protestants of Germany maintaine at this day hauing assented therein vnto the Church of Rome in the Diot at Ralisbone by Bucer and others vpon these
Sabaoth Which very words wee vse in our solemnizing of the holy Communion thus Therefore with Angels and Archangels and the company of Heauen wee laud and magnifie thy glorious name euermore praysing thee and saying Holy holy holy Lord God of hosts Heauen and earth are full of thy glory Glory bee to thee O Lord most high Can this Goose gaggle against this Augustine is next lib. 1. de Serm. Dom. in Monte cap. 5. in whom I finde no such diuision nor any thing to purpose And lib. de doct Christ cap. 7. againe As if there were but one booke there being foure and no such matter in any 7. Chapter Who can brooke such an ignorant or negligent companion in a point of controuersie and imputation Which is also obserued by him in Saint Gregory Saint Gregory is to be seene lib. 1. Moral cap. 28. in which booke there are not so many Chapters nor in the Chapters which are any such thing The truth is that which was meant is lib. 29. Moral vpon the 38. of Iob the same in effect with Saint Ambrose before Esais quoque cùm Laudem Trinitatis aperiret Seraphini voces exprimens ait Sanctus sanctus sanctus ac ne tertiò SanctuÌ„ nominaÌ„s vni â—ateÌ„ diuinae substantiae scindere videretur adtuÌ„xit Dominus Deus Sabaoth which almost word for word is repeated Homil. 16. and not 19. as we find it cited vpon Ezechiel To which hee might haue added Psal 67. Benedicat nobis Deus Deus noster Benedicat nobis Deus and that in Rom. XI For of him and by him and in him are al things to him be praise for euer Amen These are his Fathers that should affirme the same videlicet that it is nor superfluous nor superstitious to repeat one the same prayer oftentimes They repeat nothing they affirm nothing they only speak what was done That which they speake wee doe That which they are supposed to affirme against vs if they did affirme any thing needed not For we affirme vse propose and maintaine the same priuately publiquely in our Liturgie and Seruice of the Church To conclude Sir Gagger bring mee any one Place of Scripture any practice resolued of the Catholicks any decision of the Church representatiue any determination of the Church collectiue in a particular approued Synod any Saying of any one Father of Credit dogmatically resolued for 500. yeeres and better after Christ to the end of the Councell of Chalcedon against any thing established in the Church of England that is in the Communion-booke the booke of Articles the booke of Consecrating Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons and I will subscribe Heer is scope enough to ramble in Gagge me if you can As for priuate opinions I am bound to none no not vnto my owne Quisque abundet in sensu suo so be it hee trouble not the Church therewith FINIS Curteous Reader before I presse thee to peruse this treatise haue I pray thee so much patience as to permit me to giue thee my aduice concerning some certaine poâ—nts very necessary for thâ—e the â—ettâ—â— to sâ—me thy selfe thâ—â—of with fruit and pâ—ofit The first point is that in the inscription thereof it doth not tell thee out of which English Bible the alleadged pâ—stages are extracted For as much as this were mecrely in vaine sith that England hath brought forth within these few years past to the number of 20. seueralâ—â—orts of Bibles farre different one from another so that the Protestants haue not all one sort of Bible Notwithstanding know this for certainty that they are faithfully taken forth of the Bâ—â—le in quarto Printed at London by Robert Barker Anno 1615. If any one shall shew vnto thee some other Bible wherein they are not so written word for word as here they are yet rest assured and out of doubt that thou shalt finde theÌ„ written as they are here alleadged at the least in this of Robert Barkers The second point is that thou admire the splendour of Truth and accordingly to stand as stoutly and as immooueably in the maintenance and defence thereof Yet neuerthelesse their condemnation is so expresly set downe in their owne Bibles and is so cleare to all the world that nothing more needs hereto but onely that thou know to reade and haue thy eyes in thy head at the opening of this their booke * This in my mind cannot choose but be an exceeding comfort vnto a Catholike Yea rather a great signe of security and assurance concerning the truth and vprightnesse of his cause in shewing himselfe content to be tried by their owne Bibles The translations whereof doth in a number of places and particularly in those that are now in controuersie swarue and differ notoriously from the Authenticall Latin and that to the incredible disparagement darkning and obscuring of the Catholike verity Neuer did nor neuer dare our aduersaries offer themselues to giue the like aduantage to vs as to be tryed by our own translations The third is that when thou shalt vrge or alleadge any passage in fauour of thine owne faith if any one returne the change be it either in recriminationâ— and blaming of the Roman Church or be it in alleadging some obscure text and ill vnderstood to counterpoint thine Shew c. The fourthis that they reiect some one of the passages which thou producest pretending it to be Apocrypha though it be not true That to preuent this obiection no such scriptures as they call Apocryphall are there produced but still there goe accompanied with them others also that are Canonical But if they shall contend with thee not about the words themselues as being both cleere and Canonicall but about the sense or meaning of theÌ„ know this that for such places as may bee subiect to such cauill thou hast here the warrant and authority of the holy fathers which haue vnderstood these places in the selfe-same sense that Catholickes doe A thing which they can neuer do in their defence And what reason were it then to preferre the priuate interpretation of a Cobler before S. Chrysostome of a Baker before S. Basil of a Tinker before Tertullian and so of others I here protest in the presence of God whom I call vpon in this behalfe Which yet should be to alter the text and to imploy mans wisdome in stead of the word A thing by their owne confession forbidden them they protesting c. Farewell my deare Reader seeing I haue now said all that vnto thee which I desired Gag Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible Against Acts 8. 30. c. Against Luk. 24. 15. How then are Scriptures so easie to be vnderstood of the vnlearned when the Disciples themselues vnderstood them not till first they were expounded vnto them See more 2 Pet. 1. 20. Gag See Fathers which affirme the same Iren. lib. 2. cap. 47. Origen lib. 7. cont Celsum Ambr. Ep. 44 ad Constant calleth it a Sea a depth of Propheticall
A Gagg for the new GOSPELL NO A NEW GAGG FOR An OLD GOOSE VVho would needes vndertake to stop all PROTESTANTS mouths for euer with 276. places out of their owne English BIBLES OR AN ANSVVERE to a late Abridger of Controuersies and Belyar of the PROTESTANTS Doctrine By Richard Mountagu Published by AVTHORITIE LONDON Printed by Thomas Snodham for Matthew Lownâ—â— and William Barret 1624. To the READER PROTESTANT or Papist English or Romish Catholique Christian if thou be though to all or any I intend what I write yet I will not presse thee â—o peruse the Treatise ensuing for I am indifferent whether thou doe or no. Nor would I haue so much as troubled thy Patience with a Preface it being not tanti which the Gagger hath grated vpon but that being put vpon such a copesmate I was of conueniency to acquaint thee first with three things My vndertaking then my performing and the motiue of the Second his deseruing What moued mee to meddle with this Gagger In what sort I thought fit to arrest him wherefore I haue dealt with him in such sort And first for the first be pleased to know That I coped not with him voluntarily nor thrust my self forward of my own accord out of a desire to be doing I haue other employments of much more behoof to better purpose my greater benefit euery way or if I had none pater aÌ„ has hâ—r as non sic per dere I professe I would neuer be so idle but could more pleasingly and profitably spend my time then in catching or killing of Flyes But be pleased to heare a story Reader which put me on this posture and performing And thus it was About some two yeares since as I remember some of our Catholique Limitors had beene roming and rambling in the Countrey and brake into my pale secretly at my Parish of Standford-Riuers in Essex and according as commonly their custome is that you may know of what companions Saint Paul entended his Leading silly women captiues fell in with some one at least of the subordinate and weaker sexe indeauouring to make Proselytes of my neighbours wiues Now you know their ordinary onsets with great Out-cries of Damned Heretickes out of the Church No Seruice no Sacraments no Ministery no Faith no Christ no Saluation Terrible Shawe-fowles to skarre poore Soules that haue not the facultie of discerning Cheese from Chalk Horrible affrights and mormolyceues to put young children out of their wits that cannot distinguish a visnomie indeed from a visour So it fell out that a neighbour of mine with whom in this sort they had beene tampering became not a little dismayed and perplexed with these bug-beares of great names and thunderings in her eares till it came at length vnto my knowledge what was done I let her know they were but scarr-crowes meere words and wind bragges and boastings and so setled her disquieted thoughts againe But yet it seemeth they left not so The Diuell hath a name Belzebub the God of flyes expressing his nature like a flye insolent importune pressing on though he fall off to day hee will re-enforcce to morrow though he faile to day he will assay to morrow and still hope to preuaile at last So These as He came on againe though euer by owle-light For they came to steale and therefore feared blaunchers I could not come to God-speed nor to confront them But this I did When next you meete with these Romish Rangers commend me to them said I vnto my neighbour Tell them I much desire to bee acquainted with them I was borne bred and brought vp professed in the Religion of the Church of England which I hitherto haue thought to be the truth held and taught as the truth if I haue beene deceiued and haue deceiued others I am sorry for it my desire is to know and professe the Truth to waue heresie to quit error to goe out of schisme to finde out the true Church of Christ and become a member of it and so consequently by all possible meanes to saue my Soule If then their intention be such sincerely as they pretend it is To saue Soules they may doe a meritorious deed to come and saue mine the rather because they may goe compendiously to worke in gaining mee to the side who am like enough to draw you my Parishioners with me at least to make you more seasable then otherwise you would be for them But it seemed canebam sur dis I beleeue if the relation was made as I think it was they gaue no great credit to my words or had lesse hope of their performance For the truth is the most of these Limitors are but poore Ignaroes take them out of their beaten paths they cannot hold pace Wherefore seeing I could not tell where to finde them and they would not finde me where they might haue me I thought to send after them to know their mindes to vnderstand their opinions and see what they would say to winne mee vnto their Catholiqne faith So I tooke pen and paper and wrote as I thought fit three Propositions promising conformity vpon resolution to this effect and I suppose in these tearmes 1 If any Papist lining or all the Papists liuing can proue vnto me that the present Roman Church is eyther the Catholique Church or a sound member of the Catholique Church I will subscribe 2 If any Papist liuing or all the Papists liuing can proue vnto me that the present Church of England is not a true member of the Catholique Church I will subscribe 3 If any Papist c. can proue vnto mee that all those points or any one of those points which the Church of Rome maintaineth against the Church of England were or was the perpetuall Doctrine of the Catholique Church the concluded Doctrine of the representatine Church in any generall Councell or Nationall approued by a Generall or the dogmaticall resolution of any one Father for 500. yeares after Christ I will subscribe And to these seuerally I set my name which I did to try their sufficiencies or abate their insolencies and to settle the wauering vpon those goodly pretenses of Antiquity Vniuersality and Conformity I am sure I come home to them and touch them in their freehold as they claime it I giue them scope enough to insist vpon If they can performe this I will not eate my words I make it now publicke which I then said in priuate let them performe it I will subscribe These three Propositions thus conceiued signed I then deliuered vnto my neighbour the partie that should haue beene proselyted intreating her to deliuer them vnto those her perswaders if they came again as she thought they would This she promised and at their next meeting accordingly performed within few dayes I expected I confesse some great vndertaker and some mighty opposition to purpose in points of that Nature which touched them so neere and came vp to the head of their Catholique cause
Catholike Reader to 1614. 1616 or any other yeare as well as 1619. by Robert Barker But admit there had beene amongst vt twenty seuerall Translations as you belye vs so long as authority gaue not countenance vnto them what can we be taxed for more then the Church of Rome may not so much as the ancient Catholike Church might For beside eight or nine seuerall translations into the Greeke tongue Saint Augustine is punctuall Lib. 2. cap. 11. de doct Christ that the seuerall Latine Translations in his time could not be numbred and Hierome in his preface vpon Iosua saith there were Tot exemplaria quod codices as many Translations as Copies Which variety he misliked but S. Augustine doth well like And in the Church of Rome at this day are moe seuerall Translations extant of the Scriptures into Latine then are in England into English beside the corrections of the Lovanists of Sixtus 5. and Clemens Octavus contrary repugnant to one the other Besides the infinite variety of the vulgar Edition not one copy almost like vnto another It cannot be obiected with such good reason vnto vs what edition doe you follow as it may be vnto you with reproofe enough Doe you follow Sixtus or Clemens in your quotations For we affixâ— no infallibility vnto any Translator as you doe to their Holinesse that haue thwarted and crossed shins with one the other And if you tye your men in publique passages vnto your authorized Edition so doe we our men in publike Liturgies in like sort Iam sumus ergo pares And you may turne your finger home vpon your selfe before you point it out to vs so that wee Papists haue not all one sort of Bible One or many if it had beene so materiall or so necessary for the Curteous Catholike Reader to know which Edition it was you followed but that you are meerely a vaine man the inscription might haue told vs which you followed without any great adoe or incumbring of the Page thus After English Bibles you might haue added in quarto by Robert Barker 1615. and not made so much adoe about plaine nothing but then you could not haue had this fling at so necessary a Point the great variety of our translations and such an opportunity was not to bee slipped for giuing the Protestants a wipe with a meere lye of the multiplicity of Bibles differing one from another Seconded with another of like nature For know for certaine Reader whatsoeuer thou art there is no such faithfulnesse in these citations as this man pretendeth For neither are all citations word for word expressed in the Gagger according to our Bibles of any Translation but sometime the sense onely sometime not that and sometime expresse consequence and no more Contrary to promise and vndertaking euen so when the sense is not differing from the supposall For by promise he was bound vnto expresse and direct words And yet pardon him this false asseueration that they are not so written as he pretended not in that Edition of Robert Barker As for instance Luc. 24. 27. 8. 13. Math. 9. 3. 3. 8. and 3. 5. 6. and 19. 12. Act. 15. 14 15. 1 Cor. 14. 32. 2 Cor. 11. 2. and 2 Cor. 5. 10. Philip. 2. 30. Esay 49. 21. And haply other places beside these This is the first point Reader to serue thee for thy profit and togather fruit thereout A second is touching the splendour of Truth which indeed is admirable and attractiue Falshood and fraud are corner-creepers but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Truth is euer with a cheerefull countenance and as the verticall sunne at noone which hauing dispelled both the darknesse of the night and fogges of the day shineth forth in brightest glory But there are shadowes as well as substances et notâ maior imago most an end in course of kind the shadow is of greater aspect then the substance Truth is appearing as well as Being The diuell will seeme an Angell of light Not the veriest Theese that euer tooke purse but will say of his fellow and sweare for himself we are honest men Change but the tearmes the case is yours Sir Gagger The truth is your owne is it not Oh take it as granted though nothing more questioned or so questionable yet the Truth is onyour side there is no â—ay You may speake it boldly and stand to it stoutly to your Catholike Readers For if you want Knights of the post themselues will supply the place and sweare it That notwithstanding the Protestant Ministers haue endeauoured to obserue you would say obscure the same by so many varieties of translations and by such an infinite number of corruptions and falsifications yet neuerthelesse their condemnation is so expresly set downe in their own Bible and is so cleare to al the world that nothing more needs hereto but only that thou know to reade and to haue thine eyes in thy head at the opening of this their booke Euen as you put the words into their mouths as a witnesse at large in case of Tithes once did sweare in my owne hearing he knew the place Tithable for 300. yeares and yet was aged but 99. yeares This man spake with a good will to the cause So will your Catholikes if you aske them touching Protestant Ministers their Translations Corruptions and Falsifications beleeue you forestall you protest and sweare for you accordingly Can you desire greater Curtesie then so Some variety of Translation betwixt ours and yours your selfe haue taken the paines to obserue in these Propositions 7. 14. 15. twice 25. 29. 38. 46. and happily some others Are these Corruptions or Falsifications of the text you charge them not so you cannot you dare not doe Variety of Translations for all your enlarging there are not many As many or moe in the Church of Rome If so not authorised you will say Why no more are ours The Councel of Trent hath authorised yours and the Church of England representatiue ours Neither one nor other this or that for Authenticall variety of Translation there may be some if this make Corruptions or Falsifications your Authenticall Latine is in a poore case or rather a shop of Corruptions to depraue and obscure the splendour of Truth which is such and so passing bright notwithstanding that it shineth forth aboue and against them all For if a man can but reade and haue his eyes in his head at the very opening of the booke he shall finde your Bibles infinitely full of such varieties which no man will deny per aduenture not your selfe who yet may claime to weare a Liuery as one of Belzebubs attendants in this kind And for Corruptions and Falsifications if they be so infinite and so cleere it had beene honesty to haue named halfe a score halfe a dozen one at least to haue acquitted your toung of Lying and slandering as it is Calumnia est non accusatio There are quoted by you in your Abridgement 276 seuerall places
scripturis spiritualibus existentibus quaedam quidem absoluamus secundum gratiam Dei quaedam ante commendemus Deo If so be in the workes of Creation some keepe close vnto God in secret some are apprehended and vnderstood by vs what hurt or inconuenience is it if in Scripture all Scripture being spirituall there be something contayned which through assistance of Gods grace we can goe through with and againe some thing that we must leaue vnto God Iust the doctrine of the Protestants that some things may bee vnderstood some things past our vnderstanding Non solum in hoc saeculo so it followeth there sed et in futuro Not onely in this world but that to come that God may euer teach man euer learne of God The waters of Silo some where runne pleasantly and may be passed in other some places not foordable Origen singeth the same Protestant song and that in moe places then one of his bookes against Celsus as lib. 5. twise hom 14. vpon Exodus and other where The place you meane lib. 7. contra Celsum I thinke is this For you could not tell whereabout or what it was because your good founder C. W. B. failed you Celsus being a Pagan and an Epicure as happily you are made the same obiection I am sure which you doe now pag. 345. edit Graec-Lat that the Scripture was obscure and vncertaine the sense and meaning not to be found out by wise men so that the ignorant and indiscreet abused it at pleasure More then which no liuing Iesuite could haue said No Protestant would answere a Iesuite otherwise then Origen doth vnto that Pagan Celsus Certe ipsi Prophetae quicquid erat opus mox ab Auditoribus intelligi et quicquid ad corrigendos mores faciebat absque vllis involucris proposuerunt ijs ita vt Deus voluit The Prophets themselues expounded to their Auditors anon whatsoeuer was for them to be vnderstood and whatsoeuer serued to make them good men that they proposed vnto them as Gods will was they should plainly without obscurity at al. Had the Protestants feed him hee could not haue spoken more fully and to purpose in their cause and yet he proceedeth to declare why Figures Parables and Allegories are vsed therein a long discourse to purpose pag. 345. See him that will It is not denied Saint Ambrose Ep. 44. to Constantius compareth the holy scriptures vnto a Sea and calleth them a depth of Propheticall riddles Mare est scriptura diuina habens in se sensus profundos altitudinem Propheticorum aenigmatum in quod mare plurima introierunt flumina But not all scripture in his opinion is that Sea onely Propheticall riddles are that Sea beside which diuersa sunt scripturarū fluenta as he addeth diuers streames brooks shallowes and currents be in the scripture Habes quod primū bibas habes quod secundum habes quod postremum Scripture fitted to euery capacity I know no Protestant that wil aske more Saint Hierome is next who out of Bellarmines obseruations could haue afforded vs three places moe and more materiall from whence this mans director tooke his store and rather should he haue taken any testimony then this if he vnderstood the credit of his witnesse For the commentaries vpon the Epistles extant vnder Saint Hicromes name be none of his but are the Collections of Pelagius the Hereticke as not Protestants say but Papists of name and note Catharme Senensis Pererius Bellarmine and Victorius Marianus Such an aduocate we neede not enuie our aduersary Much good may Pelagius the Heretickes testimony doe him But let him passe for Saint Hierome there is not any thing to purpose spoken by him That which he saith is this He had studied the Scriptures much and long had conference with diuers learned men all his time about the sense thereof and had purposely vndertaken a iourney vnto Didymus at Alexandria vt ab eo in scripturis omnibus quae habebam dubia sciscitarer Therefore what First this Didymus at least vnderstood all scripture or how could he resolue all the doubts of scripture what needed Hierome to haue gone so long a iourney vnto him therfore scripture al of it is to be vnderstood Secondly vnto Hierome all scripture was not hard he proposed vnto him the doubts he had which implyeth they were not infinite not all scripture obscure or doubted of therefore thirdly this proueth the Protestant opinion true that the Scriptures are some of them easie enough to be vnderstood Saint August Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith somewhat more For he descendeth vnto Comparison and saith The things of holy scripture which I know not are many moe then those which I know Such was his humility to say so like vnto Saint Paul in the same case who knew nothing and yet your selfe Sir a man of lesse skill then Saint Augustine not to be named the same day with him if you should goe and make a list of the particular verses in the scripture which you vnderstand and of those you vnderstand not I doe not doubt but those would be more then these and yet further these being so he might iustly and truely say so of all almost For of one and the same place there may be moe senses then one yea euen literall senses and intended by the holy Ghost so that knowing one sense perhaps primary and naturall he may be ignorant of the other and thus all Scripture may be hard Saint August opinion was indeed no other then our opinion is as appeareth in Ep. 100. to Volusianus Tanta est Christianarum profunditas literarū c. Such and so great is the depth of Christian scriptures that I might still euery day learne and profit by them informe my selfe of that I know not before if so bee that at most leysure with my vtmost paines and trauell indowed with as good a wit as any man can haue I should set my selfe to learne them and them alone from my very infancy to decrepite age Hitherto Saint August in appearance for the Papist now insueth for the Protestant Not s◠but that the things absolutely necessary to Saluation are compassed with much losse difficulty and vnderstood But when a man hath once resolued his Faith in them without which no man can liue well and godlily those men that will goe forward with greater proficiency shall meete with so many things in such wise shadowed with mysticall meanings so great proofe and depth of wisedome therein couched not onely in the words which set forth the things vnto vs and to our vnderstanding but also in the things vnderstood Insomuch as that auncient students of pregnant wit of vnwearied pains doe find it verrified in themselues here which the same scripture hath in a certaine place Sirac 18. 7. When a man hath done then is he to beginne So truly doth Saint August resolue for either opposite part who haue shared the Truth betwixt them This was the doctrine once euen of
then heare them not Verba legis proferendo in the opinion of Saint Augustine so long as they speake Law This is not our Heresie but Catholique Doctrine De legis ac Mosis doctrinâ loquitur perindè enim est acsi dicat Omnia quae Lex Moyses vobis dixerint Scribis Pharisaeis recitantibus seruate saith Maldonate no friend nor fauourer of Protestants And after him Barradas another Iesuite in this resolution a very Protestant Hoc est saith he omnia quae legi Dei mandatis non repugnāt Ergo bound in the text with this restriction as you must and it is a plaine Gagge to the Gospel Luke 10. 16. He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and hee that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me Therfore c. You know not what you say All this we constantly beleeue But first I answere this is a text indeede to purpose to vindicate authority to the Church and her Pastors but not expressely which is your vndertaking by necessary consequence and indenied it is but you haue tied your selfe foole as you were vnto expresse words and expresse words are not here extant Secondly perhaps it is not so pat as you imagine because the men intended there and then were of another making fashion and account than euer were any since or before and therefore their priuiledges more peculiar of greater extent insomuch as that all were not to be heard so respectiuely as they were they without Scripture or allegation of Scripture hauing mission immediate from the Sonne himselfe which none euer had but they But thirdly I answere take it with Saint Cyprian Epist 96. and others in a larger extent ad omnes praepositos qui Apostolis vicariâ ordinatione succedunt vnto the Gouernours in the Church who succeede the Apostles in the Churches gouernement by imposition of hands and ordination and goe and answere your selfe out of Saint Bernard thus Be the commandement tendred by God or man as Gods agent it is to be receiued with like reuerence Vbi tamen Deo contraria non praecipit homo As farre as man doth not gain-say the will and commandement of the most high A flat Protestant in his assertion and vpon reason For a Nuntio must goe to his Commission Matth. 16. 19. I will giue vnto thee the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen whatsoeuer thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen Which text hath no such mention of relying vpon Church or Pastors in matters of faith expressed Nor hitherto perhaps any such meaning Your Compeeres were wont to cry vs downe with this text For Saint Peters iurisdiction ouer all and the Popes vniuersall power in claue potestatis You now waue that power it seemeth and cast aside that key and lay hold vpon that other key of knowledge Shall wee belieue your Puniship or them This cannot be good Catholique vnitie in so fundamentall a poynt of your Faith except for neere alliance betwixt Saint Peter and his Spouse the Church whatsouer is remembred of the one must be likewise true of the other But out with your Table-bookes you that haue them amongst you and Note the man will giue you something worth the noting that is our Sauiour doth not say whomsoeuer but whatsoeuer We take it and note it and meane to make good vse of it inferring thereupon through your owne confession that therefore St. Peter by Christs commission must in case of binding and loosing and executing the power of the Keyes which whether it be all one with binding and losing you are not agreed amongst your selues let whomsoeuer alone for euer and betake himselfe vnto whatsoeuer that is not meddle any more with Kings and Princes with cantoning of their Kingdomes and estates but content himselfe with whatsoeuer matters of fact inferiour matters of Faith and the like decisions at least with Causes and Persons within his owne Verge indeede Causes that is knots and difficulties for Persons are none of that combination So to shake hands with your memorable obseruation Therefore in matters of faith euen by their owne Bible wee must not relye vpon the written word onely but vpon whatsoeuer Saint Peter shall tie or vntie which we in this case are contented to doe and to say with that Councell of which he was a part you say President visum est spiritui sancto nobis the decision of the Catholique Church wee receiue as the dictate of the holy Spirit but be you sure it is the iudgment of the Church for you are good Proficients in equiuocation and present vs the Church vpon no better termes then if you should tender vs a man of straw for a perfect man or a shadow for a substance Indeede to this effect that is to as little purpose as that which went before In cases of controuersies and of doubts in matters of fact or ciuill cognisance which could not be determined by ordinary course of Law in the seuerall Counties as it were or Places of iudicature the Parties plaintife and defendants were to referre it to the Leuits Priests and Iudge in these daies that is to the Church and to the Pope you dreame and let your dreame goe once for truth and they must heare it determine it definitiuely It was capitall to refuse or to appeale Good but yet this commeth not home for they must determine it according vnto Law to which supreamest decision both concurre the Rule of right and determiner of right according to that rule In our construction to our present question the iudgement of the Church according vnto Scripture the selfe-same that the Protestant maintaineth In this text I graunt more is to be seene then in all the rest viz. when the word of the Lord came vnto Agge the Prophet Which thing how it sorteth with the present position I cannot tell speake those that can But the word that then came vnto him was this in the 12. verse Aske the Priests concerning the Lawe And the Priests answered according vnto Law thus and thus And this is resoluing of a doubt by the Priests but the doubt resolued according vnto Law so the written word is relyed vpon Not I my selfe the word onely Quis enim respondet Did euer any man deny that the Church and her Pastors are not to be heard speaking out of or else according vnto Scriptures Shew this and take it else Nihil ad rhombum That of 2 Chron. 19. 8. is all one with Deuter. 17. 8. an exemplification of that rule a practice according vnto that direction there somewhat more For hereby it appeareth that the Precept was not for Tell the Church and heare her Pastors but goe take the ordinary course appointed the iudgement of a standing court mixt of Clergie and of the Laitie as it were our court of high Commission or indeede the Starre-chamber consisting of both robes
Ecclesiasticall and ciuill not any thing to purpose for Church or for her Pastors propounded The last out of 2 Thessal 2. 15. was wont to passe currant for vnwritten verities now it commeth in limping for Church and Pastors resolue where it shall stand and then we will ranke it in degree and desert So I would could I tell where to finde them they walke in tenebris I cannot speake with them by cleare day-light In briefe what they affirme I professe I cannot tell I know many things which they affirme in those remembred bookes and passages but what the man here meaneth I can but guesse at so dissolute and at randome are his quotations as if to name and muster vp some Fathers were enough as I can coniecture so come I to them if I misse I must haue better information hereafter Gregorie Nazianz. in Oratione excusat saith somewhat I resolue of and to some purpose but what I certainely doe not know nor yet which Oration is by him intended For I finde not any vnder that title in Billius whom these men follow vnlesse it be one of his Apologies In the former of which two I finde somewhat that may looke that way this In Ecclesijs constituit vt alij pascantur pareant quibus videlicet id conducit ac cum sermone tum opere ad officium diriguntur alij autem ad Ecclesiae perfectionem Pastores ac magistri sunt qui virtute coniunctioneque ac apud Deum familiaritate vulgo sublimiores sunt rationem animae ad corpus aut mentis ad animam obtinentes A thing reasonable profitable and of absolute necessitie for the being of a Church to haue a distinction of Pastors and People some to teach some to be taught to leade to be led to rule to obey a thing established practised and defended in England no otherwise then was in the Primitiue Church and is in the Church of Rome at this day Vnlesse wee can see more shewed vs in Gregory Nazianzene we haue seene but little vnto any purpose yet and other thing then this I know not Tertullian next to be seene against Heretickes prescribeth the rule of Faith so doe we appealeth to the first institution of the Catholicke Church of Christ in his Apostles and to their Doctrine then taught and deliuered and so doe wee aboue all primerily thereto he descendeth vnto Succession so will we Not any prescription insisted vpon by Tertullian but I embrace it and dare appeale vnto it and stand to the award thereof Ex fide personas approbantes non ex personis fidem Is this that which he would haue with Tertul. out of Chapter 21. What Christ reuealed vnto his Apostles to be preached I will prescribe that it ought to be proued no otherwise then by testimony of those Churches which were first founded by the Apostles in their preaching partly by word of mouth and partly afterward by writing If this be the place of Tertullian meant by the Gagger then Currat a Gods name we accept the Condition and ioyne issue and come on with Tertullian as it insueth Si haec ita sunt If this be so it must needs be that all Doctrine which concordeth with those Apostolicall mother and originall Churches is true as being that selfe-same which the Churches receiued from the Apostles they from Christ Christ from God Whatsoeuer other Doctrine is beside this is false against the truth of the Apostles Christ and God Thus he thus we I desire no other Iudge or better triall ioyne issue when you will or when you dare I accept the Condition for any point controuerted betwixt the Church of England and Rome at this day for 500. yeeres after Christ at least Discipulus magistrum Cyprian commeth next to be seene in his 55. Epistle or as your Authors suggest it Lib. 1. Epist 3. In which Epistle I cou'd pitch vpon places moe then one that happily you may entend for they looke this way but that which is purposed I suppose is this in the second sect Actum est de Episcopatus vigore de Ecclesiae gubernandae sublimi ac divinâ potestate The rather because the Texts of Scripture here cited are by Pamelius the Roman Scholiast there applyed though to no purpose For it is the receiued Doctrine of the Church of England that in the office of a Bishop there should be that vigor as he calleth it and that the Calling it selfe is Diuine and an high calling Nor doth any Papist liuing more respect and approue that saying of Saint Cyprian in the same Epistle Sect. 19. then our Church of England doth Non est ad hoc deponenda Catholicae Ecclesiae dignitas c. The honor and the dignity of the Catholick Church is not to be abased so farre nor the vnspotted maiesty of the Flocke of Christ or Priestlike power and authority to be so deiected that men consisting out of the Church should dare professe they will passe censure vpon a Bishop of the Church That Heretickes should presume to censure Christians wounded men iudge the sound lapsed men those that neuer fell guilty persons iudge the Iudge Impious Sacrilegists the Priests This you approue so doe we To what end doe you will vs see Saint Cyprian Or Saint Augustine against Cresconius the Donatist if yet wee could tell where in speciall and what to see is this that which you meane Cap. 33. We vphold the truth of Scripture when we doe that which the vniversall Church commandeth recommended by authority of the Scriptures so farre as that because the Scripture cannot deceiue a man that would not willingly erre in this question obscure should goe and enquire what the Church saith of it If this be the place as in all likelihood it is we subscribe vnto it with all our hearts For in Diuinity Questions Controuersi Iuris there must bee a Iudge to determine that wee say is the Church whether part contending hath Law right that is consent of Scripture vpon his side and we professe with the same Saint August in his 118. Disputare contra id quod vniuersa Ecclesià sentit insolentissimae est insaniae A most in solent franticke foole were he that would dispute against the tenent of the vniuersall Church Sir bring vs to the triall and gagge vs if you can with this resolution of Saint Augustine belye vs not for our opinions against your knowledge But all this while wee haue seene in the Fathers what wee could finde or imagine yet wee neuer saw cleerely till the close Drinke was your arrand but draffe would you haue your plea hath beene for the Church and Pastors your intent was meerely for the Pope for so Saint Anselme Lib. de Incarnat cap. 1. written vnto Pope Vrban saith vnto him Vnto no other is more rightly referred to be corrected whatsoeuer ariseth in the Church against the Catholicke Faith What is this saying of S. Anselme vnto vs in matters of faith
wee must relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and her Pastors There be moe Pastors in the Church then the Pope though he be granted first he is not all There be moe Churches then his Church what hath Pope Vrban one man to doe with Pastors with the Church but that which wee know well enough by Pastors and Church in conclusion you meane the Pope I could interpret Saint Anselme well enough as that if a Controuersie were referred by the Church or an Heresie to be corrected in the Church which touched the case of the Catholicke Church it could not be put ouer more fitly to any one man by the Church representatiue in a Councel then vnto the Pope first Bishop of Christendome of greatest not absolute power amongst Bishops But I know your Saint Anselme well enough This was not his meaning he was partiall post natus not fit to speake in this cause nor amongst the Fathers A great Bishop I grant him He was Archbishop of Canterbury no great Doctor but respectiuely considering the barbarous times in which hee liued farre from being one of the ancient Fathers or their grand-child He liued in the dayes of King Henry the first and was a factionist for Pope Vrban his good Lord and Master So aske my fellow if I be a thiefe your bottle-ale Hostesse where you vse it seemeth to meete in Partridge alley with your gossips is well enough acquainted with these passages and can tell you as much as Saint Anselme could if an Heretick aske her who is Supreame ale-canner on Earth shee will answer no doubt why who but his holinesse In this case I beleeue them both alike as good reason for one as for other Sure yours are no better then those Corkes with which your Hostesse vseth to stop her bottles but agree as you can you and your Hostesse we proceede to the next Proposition III. That Apostolicall traditions and ancient customes of the holy Catholique Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs THis is also contrary to the expresse words of our owne Bibles How wherefore we shal see when we can In the interim thus wee draw on Traditions are of two Sorts in the writings of Antiquity as the word is ambiguous of two significations There are Traditions writteÌ„ improperly so called and there are Traditions vnwritten deliuered from hand to hand The name is sometime applyed to the one and sometime attributed to the other you meane not here Traditions written I know it no more doe we we agree to take it of vnwritten Traditions in opposition vnto Scripture as where Tertullian speaketh in his Book de coronâ militis thus Scripturam nullam invenies Traditio tibi praetenditur euictrix Scripture for this you can finde none the originall came from Tradition Traditions are considered Originally in their Authors Christ the Apostles the Church priuatemen which haue their authority more or lesse answerable to the worth of their Originals Againe they are considered materially in regard of what they treat of what they containe whereof they are of Orders Rights practices opinions in common vse and custome amongst men Traditions instituted by our Sauiour euen in points of beliefe Faith haue Diuine authority as his written word hath Traditions deriued from the Apostles haue equall authority with their Preachings and their writings I approue that processe of the Controuersor The authority of Gods Word is not because it is written but because it commeth from God Traditions of the Church haue such authority as the Church hath all binde and oblige as they were intended and as their extent is For they must be considered not onely from the Author but from the End Some were intended to be Permanent others onely to be transient for a Time onely or else for euer Some vniuersall some onely Partiall for the Catholique or else a priuate Church Such variety and difference is in Traditions which this Hudler confoundeth to deceiue his Nouice with indistinctions Now the question is not whether there be Traditions or haue beene heretofore we doe grant it in euery kinde that either there are or haue beene Traditions of Christ his Apostles the Church priuate men The question is not of what authority they are we grant their authority is from and as the Authors but the question is of their Credit and Extent First whether the pretended Traditions of Christ and his Apostles were indeed so ordained or deriued as they are pretended or rather counterseits and suppositions Proue them true vndoubted and we rise vp vnto them Secondly to what ends they were instituted whether to last and indure euer or for a time whether to supply the defects of Scripture not else sufficient for the end This we denye for it is our Position that the written Word of God without vnwritten Traditions is perfect and absolute and sufficient for the end whereto it was intended To make the man of God absolute in euery good worke Abuse not your selues nor your Proselites here slander not nor belye vs giue vs any Tradition of Christ or his Apostles giue vs good euidence for what you say goe proue it conuincingly to haue come from them by Scripture Fathers consent of Antiquity can you aske any more and we receiue it with both our armes as Gods holy Word and Institution Quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ab Apostolis praecepta benè traduntur quanquam scripta non reperiantur Though I finde it not vpon record in Scripture yet I receiue it as proceeding from the Apostles if the vniuersall Church imbrace it said Saint Augustine and I subscribe vnto it bring vs any such Tradition so accepted so receiued so commended and you shall see wee will reuerence it as much as you or more but if you giue me copper in stead of gold pardon me if I beleeue you not nor receiue it for pay Ecclesiasticall constitutions are moe more certaine of the same authority with the Churches written Lawes which binde generally if made for generall obligation or else particularly if they haue but locall and confined limitation omni modo bind they doe vnto obedience so long in such sort so farre forth as the authors did intend till the same authority disaâ—ow them which gaue vnto them being at the first In the 34. Article to this purpose wee reade of and concerning Ecclesiasticall Traditions It is not necessary that Traditions and ceremonies be in all places one or vtterly like for that at all times they haue beene diuers and may be changed according to diuersities of Countries times and mens manners So that nothing be ordained against Gods word Your Catholique cares be they round or long cannot be offended with this position I thinke Whosoeuer through his priuate iudgement willingly and purposely doth openly breake the Traditions and ceremonies of the Church which be not repugnant vnto the word of God and be ordained and approued by common authoritie ought to be rebuked openly that others may
feare to doe the like as hee that offendeth against the common order of the Church hurteth the authoritie of the magistrate and woundeth the consciences of the weake Loe Traditions not onely auowed but maintained the infringers censured So that but reade ouer your Position againe That Apostolicall traditions and auncient customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs compare that with this decision and then giue your Catholike honesty the lye Euery particular or national Church hath authority to ordaine to change and abolish ceremonies or Rites of the Church ordained onely by mans authoritie so that all things be done vnto edification Nor is this against your Catholique Doctrine or practise and yet this is all that our Church deliuereth touching traditions in their publique authorised receiued constitutions Priuate opinions if there be any tye vs no more then they doe you Nay we deale more sincerely and positiuely than you doe distinguishing Traditions for plainenesse sake whereas your Fathers of Trent giue this onely in commaund That Traditions be receiued as the Scripture playing fast and loose in ambigiuous termes not differencing humane diuine Apostolicall Apotacticall Christian Paganish generall particular free of necessity temporary or permanent Traditions Can you or any Papist defend this The Popish Doctrine thus deliuered is not onely contrary to expresse words of your owne Bibles but to pietie and religion to sense and reason that any idle fantasticke foolish impious prophane humane inuention for your words runne generally and extend to all should be receiued as Holy Scripture but the protestant doctrine declared as before is not contrary to expresse words of our Bibles 2 Thessal 2. 15. Therefore Brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which yee haue receiued whether by word or by our Epistle Therefore c. Wee deny not obedience vnto this exhortation but indeauour to stand fast in the word of truth and hold fast all those Traditions which Saint Paul deliuered either by word or writing All Protestants giue due respect to such diuine authority Shew any that doth not and you say somewhat But good Sir Gagger Hee that refuseth those manifold botcheries and brokerages of your Romish Church and casteth them off as impious and ridiculous doth not streight transgresse this Apostolicall direction no more than he that reiecteth a counterfeit Passe made by some jarkman vnder an hedge for a Rogue doth resist lawfull authority Proue your Tradition such as you pretend then see what we will say vnto you 2 Thessal 3. 6. Now we command you brethren in the name of the Lord Iesus Christ that you withdraw you selues from euery brother that walketh disorderly and not after the Tradition he receiued of vs. Which we receiue and obey But Tradition may runne for Example here in effect not according to our example And so Saint Chrysostome vpon the place or it may be something extant also in writing or order prescribed them by the Apostle temporary and occasionall or of morall dispensation If you can name it wee will not refuse for our conclusion differerh not from yours Traditions are to be receiued and doe oblige vs but you must let vs know them and their credite first 1 Cor. 11. 2. I praise you brethren saith the Apostle that you remember mee in all things and keepe the Traditions as I haue deliuered them vnto you So hee would vs were hee now liuing so would hee not you that haue broken them for that which hee deliuered vnto them that hee receiued of the Lord 1 Cor. 11. 23. and that which hee receiued was touching the whole intire communion the Cups as well as the Bread you haue broken this Tradition through your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and presumptions But can you resolue mee what Tradition hee meaneth heere perhaps they were Temporall and not intended for vs. If such your owne rule is They oblige not It may be no vnwritten Traditions but the written word at least such things as be written now Howsoeuer the allegation is not to purpose for it doth not proue what the Protestants deny and that which it proueth they deny not That Traditions are to be kept 2 Timoth. 2. 2. Where there is no expresse mention of Traditions but onely of things receiued from Saint Paul by which Traditions peraduenture not written are meant and peraduenture things written who can tell whether these or those shew them and we refuse them not Iohn 20. 30. and 21 25. are both to one purpose Tradition is in neither text expressed nor to be collected from either for neither text is for Tradition both one other intimate no more but that all which Christ did or said is not recorded in the Gospels Doth any ideot belieue the contrary This fellow might begge vs if wee said or taught that Christ did nor said any thing but that is written Till then himselfe may be begged for a foole that would put vpon vs this vnhandsome beliefe All that Christ did or said is not written therefore any thing must be receiued that is pretended to be Tradition Apostolicall or Diuine 1 Cor. 11. 34. Paul saith The rest I will set in order when I come Therefore you may goe learne to bake a batch of Bread or goe drinke an health to the Vicar of St. Fooles with your Host of Holborne The inference is Saint Paul had not ordered all till hee came when hee came hee made good his promise and set all things in order at Corinth therefore any thing though neuer so absurd which Papists pretend as Tradition must be receiued as Gods word 1 Timoth. 6. 2. Saint Paul saith nothing of Tradition except these words will beare out Tradition These things teach and exhort which things are written not vnwritten For These things doe designe things there remembred Saint Iohn 2. Epist 12. saith He had many things to write vnto them which hee would not commit to paper but come himselfe and teach them by word of mouth which hee repeateth Ep. 3. vers 13. Therefore hee wrote not all things vnto them And who saith hee did therefore what our Gagger is a goose no other sequell and so hee must stand vntill hee shew that some of his Romish Traditions were part of that which Saint Iohn would not write vnto them but teach them by word of mouth Act. 16. 4. and 15. 28. Wee reade of no Traditions wee doe of Decrees ordayned in the Councell at Ierusalem but the mischiefe is they are written and yet so our Gagger and his Comerades keepe them not For tell mee did you neuer eate a Goose or her pudding Capon Hen or Chickens at your Bottle-Ale house in Partridge-Ally if not there nor otherwhere I haue nothing to say to you But if so I returne it to your teethe you belie vs in that which you doe your selues The Traditions Apostolicall and auncient customes of the holy Church oblige you not For among these Decrees or as you will
Pharises doe your Church 1 Pet. 2. 9. The Church is styled a chosen generation a royall Priesthood an holy nation a peculiar people glorious titles but nothing to this They cannot erre Iohn 17. 17. Gods word is truth I graunt But is Gods Word euer in the mouth of man The Apostles were sanctified and that in Gods truth according vnto Christs Prayer Yet after this Prayer Peter went not right when Saint Paul reproued him he fell and that foulely in denying Christ That which is sanctified is accepted not euer so sanctified as without spot As for 1 Cor. 11. 25. if the Institution or rather Commemoration of the institution of the holy Communion be a proofe sufficient that the Church cannot erre wee yeeld the cause if nothing to purpose what meant this idle pate to range it heere What the man would say in Psalm 101. 23. 20. or whether hee would send vs after mistaking there I cannot tell and till then I cannot answere For not so much as neere thereabout is ought to purpose of not erring Ephes 2. 20. Wee reade that they were built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets And what then Could they not erre Dare you say so They could for they haue and are shaken off from that foundation but so long as they stood on fast they erred not holding one Faith one Lord one Baptisme Eph. 4. 5. which if you and we doe at this day by your owne argument auoid it if you can we erre not As for one heart and one soule of the belieuers Act. 4. 32. it is in reference of loue one to another not in vnity of Doctrine all with one another And yet there were differences in that vnion for example sake inter Paul and Barnabas and might be disproportion in their Doctrine as dissimilitude in the habitude and condition of those sheepe in one sheepe-fold vnder one Shepheard and yet all heare the Shepheards voyce Iohn 10. 16. and hee that will not heare some of those Sheepe Luc. 10. 16. be taxed for not regarding the Shepheard when as yet for all that some of those Sheepe be gone astray To conclude The Church cannot erre neither collectiue nor representatiue Thus your Masters distinguish the termes of this question that goe workman-like and not like you clutteringly to worke So they so wee In the largest extent not erre at all Secondly not erre in poynts of Faith For in matters of fact they confesse errour Faith is fundamentall or accessory There none is here error may accrew Fathers to be seene you afford vs none Not because there are none but because your reading could supply none Who take vp all vpon retaile and credit hauing so small store at home The Church cannot erre is most true and the Church may erre is as true each part considered as it ought V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible IT may be some priuate opinions haue runne vpon inuifibility of the Church which are no doctrinall decisions nor to be imputed vnto the resolued Doctrine of the Protestants that are of another minde Nunquam est quod nusquam videtur That which cannot be seene if it be seeable is no where at all nor in being For as Saint Augustine well said Quo modo confidimus ex diuinis liter is accepisse nos Christum manifestum si non accepimus Ecclesiam manifestam How is it possible wee should hope to haue Christ manifest in Scripture except wee haue likewise the Church manifest Therefore on all hands it is resolued the Church hath euer beene visible since there was a Church In England especially how can this fellow impute inuisibility to vs who claime and proue a succession and therefore needes a visibilitie from the time of the Apostles If any doe thinke otherwise or cannot doe this we vndertake no patronage at all of them The Church is a City seated on a Hill which is naturally visible though in a fogge or mist not discerned There euer was and will be a Church vnto whom complaints may be made though the Church doth not euer heare complaints Those that haue fell vpon an inuisibility may perhaps be tollerated if well interpreted and vnderstood For euen the visible Church in her more noble parts may be said to be inuisible First the Saints triumphant and now regnant with Christ are parts of the Church in largest extent Who being in Heauen are vnknowne their persons proprieties and indowments The Saints militant her more excellent parts on Earth according to her more royall indowments the Elect according vnto purpose of Grace are knowne onely vnto God alone the searcher of secrets and decipherer of thoughts Such as be secret occultò intus are there not visible vnto man In this sence in regard of these parts the Church is and is esteemed inuisible and so held euen of the Papists themselues Otherwise then so wee doe not speake of inuisibility So that the man must fall foule with his owne part or be at warre with his owne wits Moderate men on both sides confesse this controuersie may cease Et quamuis praesens haec Ecclesia Romana non parum in morum disciplinae integritate adde etiam in doctrinae sinceritate ab antiquâ illâ vnde orta deriuata est discesserit tamen eodem fundamento doctrinae sacramentorum à Deo institutorum firma semper constitit communionem cum antiquâ illâ indubitatâ Christi Ecclesiâ agnoscit colit Quare alia diuersa ab illâ esse non potest tametsi multis in rebus dissimulis sit Manet enim Christi Ecclesia sponsa quamuis multis erroribus vitijs sponsum suum irritauerit quamdiu à Christo suo sponso non repudietur tametsi multis fâ—agellis ab ipso castigetur As for our Gagger hee is interessed happely otherwise In standeth him in hand to vphold and foment a faction lest for insufficiency otherwise hee turne Host and sell Bottle-Ale That mustie obiection as hee calleth it of Elias may doe him some pleasure at that time I adde no more touching this proposition because it is but lost labour VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publique seruice of the Church to be in a tongue not vnderstood of all the Assistants NO doubt Contrary to our owne Bibles in such sort that if the Protestants be not gagged now their mouthes are wider than Gargantuaes and their lips somewhat like to Germans that were nine mile asunder Certes neuer so foyled by texts of Scripture since Luther went out to this day Therefore expedite tabulas Chrysippei sophi For heere you haue a singular piece of worke indeede The Church of England directed not onely by the light of Israel the Word of God but also perswaded by common sense and reason hath and hath had her Seruice the publique prayers and Liturgie of the Church in a knowne tongue vnderstood of all that are present there ordinarily This is contrary to their
from all thy sinnes If this be acknowledged the Doctrine of our Communion Booke and practice of our Church accordingly as it is iniurious are those opposites vnto truth and lyers against their owne knowledge that impute it to vs which wee are confessed to deny That none but God can forgiue sinnes This must proceede out of faction or that which is worse But this fellow proceedeth vpon a further extreamity to strengthen a truth in it selfe with a lye made by himselfe that our Doctrine is contrary to our Bibles Matth. 9. 3. 8. To proue against vs that which we deny not viz. this power delegated vnto Priesthood thus you alledge But when the multitude saw it they maruailed and glorified God who had giuen such power vnto men as to forgiue sins Which words As to forgiue sinnes are not in our Bibles out of which you vndertake to proue your Assertion Nor in your owne Bibles follow which you will You haue added them out of your store to serue your owne turne contrary to Scripture and further contrary to sense Because that thing which amazed them then for which they glorified God was a thing sensible visible apprehended of all When they saw it Now see sinnes forgiuen they could not heare it pronounced belieue it they might Secondly the power there giuen is not ordinary as that of absolution is but extraordinary and miraculous to heale the sicke Peter and his Successour had that but very few or none had this You know it was answered a Pope once when he shewed a masse of Gold and Siluer to one and added The Church could not say now Siluer and Gold haue I none No quoth the other Nor can it say Arise and walke This is that power there mentioned could you see it not that of Absolution ordinary That of Ioh. 20. 21. Matth. 16. 19. Giue that power vnto the Apostles to forgiue sinnes But may it not be excepted it was a personall priuiledge I answere not so for I belieue it not The collation was originall to them as to those from whom it was to be conueyed vnto others But some are happely of that opinion and it may seeme probable vnto others you should haue cleared the Texts of that obiection and then your performance had beene to purpose Matth. 16. 19. May be vnderstood you meane of sinnes forgiuen but yet only secondarily for thesi secunda Because we reade in the Euangelist whatsoeuer and not whomsoeuer this place is to be vnderstood of any knot whatsoeuer indeede rather of the power of the sword than of the keyes And it seemeth that if this place be not personall to Peter and his successors as by this allegation for forgiuing it neither is nor can be then our most holy Father hath lost a maine pillar of his Papacy peculiar to Saint Peter and his successours So these Madianites sheath their swords one in anothers sides and crosse themselues in their owne positions In Matth. 18. 18. The Text is so expresse to the purpose that Origen Chrysostome Theophilact and Anastasius vnderstand it of all Christians whomsoeuer that sundry Roman Catholiques if Maldonate deceiue vs not vnderstand it of no more than ciuill policy Goe take it Whatsoeuer you binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer you loose in Earth it shall be loosed in Heauen as your selues will for the power and execution of the keyes Wee deny not in any sort that power is giuen vnto mortall men to forgiue sinnes on earth nor to binde by excommunication which is frequently practised and peraduenture too frequently amongst vs. Vnto that 1 Cor. 5. 5. Artic. 33. thus wee subscribe That person who by open denunciation of the Church is rightly cut off from the vnity of the Church and excommunicated ought to be auoyded and to be taken of the whole multitude of the faithfull as an Heathen and a Publican vntill hee be openly reconciled by penance and receiued into the Church by a Iudge that hath authoritie thereunto And in this sort Saint Paul deliuered Hymenaeus and Alexander 1 Timoth. 1. 20. and forgaue the incestuous Corinthian 2 Cor. 2. 10. Which places by your direction wee haue seene and finde the Article agreeing with them As for 2 Cor. 5. 19. It is not to purpose of forgiuing sinnes by delegated authority vnto a Priest but of Reconciling by the whole office and function of the ministry God was in Christ saith the Apostle and reconciled the world vnto himselfe not imputing their sinnes vnto them and hath committed to vs the word of reconciliation So wee haue seene eyther nothing at all to purpose or else that of which wee made no question nor yet doe any at all As little in Fathers that affirme the same Irenaeus Lib. 5. cap. 14. saith the raising of Lazarus from death to life was a Symbole or figure of our Resurrection from Sinne to God Hee saith no more that I can see or finde Ambrose Lib. 1. it should be de paenitent cap. 7. Nor August Tract 49. in Iohn Nor Gregor hom 26. in Euangel if wee may belieue Bellarmine Lib. 3. de paenitent cap. 3. from whom you transcribed these testimonies without considering of these Fathers in their owne workes but so carelessely that if you were a Schoole-Boy lures in corpore for you referre vs to Gregor hom 26. in Euangel Whereas Bellarmine hath it 6. and to Ambrose Lib. de paenitentia as if Saint Ambrose had written but one Booke of that Argument not diuided into Chapters whereas Bellarmine directed you aright to the seauenth Chapter of his 1. Booke Was this securitie stupiditie or insolency in you or what was it XII That wee must not confesse our Sinnes but onely vnto God THat wee must not implyeth a flat negatiue or iniunction rather vnto the contrary Shew mee any such inhibition and I will say which I belieue you neuer will deserue at any Protestants hands you are a true dealing and an honest man Otherwise you are that you are and so will be still The most that hath beene saide is that priuate confession is free not tyed and therefore suus positiui not diuini Therefore happely of conueniency not of absolute necessity That in a priuate Confession vnto a Priest a peculiar enumeration of all Sinnes both of commission and omission with all circumstances and accidents is neuer necessary necessarily most an end not expedient nor yet all things considered required It is confessed that all Priests and none but Priests haue power to forgiue sinnes It is confessed that priuate Confession vnto a Priestâ— is of very ancient practice in the Church of excellent vse and practise being discreetly handled Wee refuse it to none if men require it if neede be to haue it We vrge it and perswade it in extreames Wee require it in case of perplexitie for the quieting of men disturbed and their consciences It hath beene so acknowledged by your fellowes that in the visitation of the sicke it is
we goe see in Irenaeus Or in Tertullian who in his Booke de poenitentia I must supply the Chapter you had forgot it or else could not tell it Cap. 4. blameth some that through bashfulnesse would not confesse but where or to whom he telleth not Happily he meant it of Confession vnto God For almost instantly before he hath these words Quâ delictum nostrum Domino confitemur To God notto man and Delictum the sinne that lyeth close that presseth downe that disquieteth vs in Conscience not Delicta our sinnes by enumeration But passe it for priuate Confession to a Priest Tertullian vrgeth it no farther then for conueniency and draweth it vp no higher then Delictum Euery way conspiring with the Protestants who mislike not Confession nay approue it vnto men who condemne not Absolution but approue it enioyne it though not with that rigour as Romanists doe and approue Saint Ambrose counsell well Confesse freely vnto the Priest the hidden secrets of thy soule If yet it be the counsell of Saint Ambrose For Plagiary as you be did you not here mistake your Authour and Father that ignorantly vpon Saint Ambrose which Bellarmine telleth you was the aduise of Gregory Nyssen Orat in mulierem peccatricem Such grosse Bayardismes in so insolent a Bard are intollerable Saint Ambrose hath no such Booke de muliere peccatrice 2 de paenitent 6. He exhorteth to repentance but not a word of Confession vnto a Priest many confessing vnto God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times IN the Apostles times no nor yet many hundreds of yeeres since their times Such Pardons as commence in the Apostolicall Chauncery such as Tecelius dispersed in Germany others in other Countries are impious irreligious prophane and sacrilegious coosnage an imposture of Merchants that trade for the Diuell that chaffer Heauen and happinesse for the reward of iniquity The first mouing cause of Luthers rising vp and taking Armes against the Church of Rome Bellarmine and Baronius those grand Dictators and vndertakers for the Papacy faile in proofes of this nouelty and what can such a puny as this fellow performe Yet let vs see his best endeauours and fairest shewes because with Catholikes euery Pismire is a Potentate as euery Goose a Swan Contrary no doubt to our own Bibles we denie them For 2 Cor. 2. 10. S. Paul remembreth them thus To whom you forgiue any thing I forgiue also c. You must know that are to learne The Corinthian that had married his Fathers wife was for his incest Excommunicated and put to penance by the Apostle as appeareth 1 Cor. 5. 3. Well what when why here he giueth order for his Pardon This is not denied vpon any hand The Protestants beleeue the Scriptures more then Papists will doe Why but these two places compared are a plaine proofe of the Apostles power of punishing and of pardoning They are it is granted Therefore Pardons were in vse in the Apostles time Is any Asse so ignorant as to say nay Long before the Apostles time they were in vse Long before Moses or Abrahams daies Can a man with patience here this Animall thus bray I suppose there is no Roman Catholique beside himselfe so sencelesse as to imagine Protestants beleeue or teach That no offender was pardoned in the Apostles times That the Apostles had no power or wanted will to accept any Contrite and Penitent into the Church Ingenuous Romane Catholikes can you brooke the wittall thus to babble Pardons were in vse then after before but Pardons no more like the Pardons hee meaneth or should maintaine then Simon the Sorcerer was to Simon the Tanner or Stephen the Deacon to Stephen Gardiner or this goose gagger vnto an honest man 2 Cor. 2. 6. In the same case vpon the same person the Apostle saith Sufficient to such a ma 〈…〉 his punishment And therefore he forgaue what remained of his punishment not yet fulfilled So that there passed an Indulgence for his farther durance There did no doubt We willingly yeeld it and take it for a warrant against Nouatian Puritanisme for a ground vnto the Discipline of the Church whose practice in Discipline is established Art 33. It is in the hands of the spirituall Magistrates to measure the time of such punishment or penance imposed Let your Pardons be no otherwise and we quarrell them not Let them stay vpon the liuing in foro fori and not meddle with pardoning the dead for money nor yet coosen the liuing by false Coynes out of the supposed Treasures of the Church and no opposition will be vnto Pardons granted no though sold in externall Courts abroad For the faults of men shall not be imputed vnto the Discipline by vs if that were rectified as it ought to be But the man is conscious to the foulenesse of his Cause and prophane Roman marting and therefore attireth a prostituted Strumpet in the habit of a graue Matron Popish pardons and Indulgences so prophane and enormious are passed vnder the names of those things with which they haue no more affinity then in name which the Prince of the Apostles of the Lambe had with the first begotten of the Diuell Pardons and Pardons Simon and Simon homonym 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 s. For the Doctrine and Practice of the Church for Repentance in Excommunication Contrition Confession Satisfaction Restitution Absolution is according vnto Piety and the rule of Faith in those that haue sinned and are restored but in the Church of Rome thus it goeth They imagine a treasure in the Church compounded together out of the satisfactions of Christ and his Saints which Treasure so composed is in the hands say they of the Pope and other Prelates vnder locke and key safe enough from purloining to be disposed and dispenced as they shall thinke good to whom they will open and communicate it more or lesse which is euer Danti for Giff-gaff is a good fellow to none else and answerable to his purchase much or little Plus or minus danti as his meanes are For in euery good worke there is Merit and Satisfaction Merit is Personall not Transitiue nor yet Communicable but Satisfaction is and may be imparted Because Satisfaction is onely for a Temporary paine which is often more and greater then Iustice or right for the offence exacteth So that God in Iustice requiring but Proportion the ouer-plus in remainder is laide vp in store against time of neede and drawen forth for vse when mens purses are flush then not till then to be soueraignly applyed vnto the purchaser not payer This premised to your Scriptures and ancient Fathers Find you any such Pardon in Saint Paul foreprised or Indulgence imparted vpon those termes The Corinthian was restored without a Bul a Bishops Seale a Commissaries direction vnto the Parson He payed no rate nor fees for Restitution or standing rectus in Curiâ No Treasure of the Church was applyed vnto him Vpon his hearty repentance and
of these Holy Saints of God For shame speake truth and shame the Deuill the Father of lyes and such lying Libellers as our Gagger But belike it is for nothing which is not for your purpose And therefore whatsoeuer Protestants doe thinke and teach and esteeme of the life and actions the death and Passions of those holy Saints of Christ it is nothing because that they build not vp thence a Magazin nor store-house for the Church nor supply other mens defects by their superfluities that the Holy Father may thereby mugle men and fill his 〈◊〉 coffers by lifting law A thing so improbable for that fained treasury that as Bellarmine confesseth some of the Schoolemen as Maironis and Durand haue not approued it Which they durst not haue done had Saint Paul beene of that minde and tendred that Doctrine Colos 1. 24. I reioyce in my sufferings for you and fill vp that which is behinde you reade wanting and reade so if you list of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his bodies sake which is the Church Whence if you say true the ground of Indulgences hath euer beene And you meane since there were Indulgences heard off For the time was in the Protestants opinion at least that no such thing was in being which yet I maruaile much it so should be and that many writing of that argument haue not so much as dreamed thereof and many no Protestants expound it otherwise Osorius a Iesuite in his Sermons saith Quid deest passioni Christi nisi vt nos similia patiamur What can be wanting to the suffering of Christ but onely this that wee in like sort suffer with him Paul suffered much indured much yet was hee not perfect if himselfe say true and for the Church of Christ to giue them example to strengthen and confirme them in what they had receiued from him filled vp the measure appointed for him in conformitie to the sufferings of Christ Iesus Barradas another of that same Society Tom. 3. vpon the Gospels Quod ad sufficientiam attinet nihil deerat passioni Cruci Christi The Crosse and sufferings of Christ were all sufficiency and that way naught wanted vnto his passion Vt tamen efficax esâ—et Crux app 〈…〉 tio praedicatio laboribus plena deerat Ideo Paulus â—it se adimplere quae desunt passionum Christi quia per multos labores Euangelium gentibus praedicabat And yet to make the Crosse and sufferings of Christ effectuall there wanted application of it by Preaching A thing laborious and exceding painefull For which cause Paul saith that hee filleth vp or supplyeth if you will that which was wanting vnto the sufferings of Christ for as much as with great paynes hee preached the Gospell vnto the Gentiles Differences there may be amongst Interpreters but none not partialists take it so as to make vp a Store-house for the Church out of Christs sufferings supplied by Saint Paul For so it must be admit this Magazin and we must admit a supply a supply is not but vpon insufficiency Can a man without blasphemie babble thus Christs imperfect a d insufficient sufferings were made vp and supplyed by Saint Paul In the merits of Christ there are no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comming short remaines or as you will call them wants For if so I say no more but how can your selfe call them superabundant as you doe and as they are The Text should speake expressely if you kept your wo 〈…〉 for making vp a store for the Church in time of need which is so farre from expressely doing that as that not obscurely it insinuateth what you pretend no not in the interpretations of no Babes vpon your owne partie Iesuites of note and learning Philip. 2. 30. Because for the worke of Christ he was nigh vnto death not regarding his owne life to supply your lacke Epaphroditus is the man there spoken of a faithfull seruant of Christ in the worke of the ministery who with the hazard of his owne life puts himselfe to doe seruice vnto the Church of God This is the commendation Saint Paul giueth of him Your inference is Hee did more than hee needed to haue done for who required any such seruice at his hand as this Hee might haue kept himselfe close and warme at home and haue slept if hee would in an whole skinne This is your good wholesome Catholique Doctrine For the benefit accruing out of the actions and Passions of Saints is to make vp the treasure of the Church out of workes supererogated by them when they doe more than God requireth As for instance when the Virgin Mary without not onely actuall sinnes mortall veniall in your opinion but also originall as not conceiued in them suffered yet much which was not due to her because all sufferings are the wages of Sinne as when martyrs suffer more or greater torments than can in iustice be exacted of them though God should enter into iudgment with them and deale with them in the rigour of his iustice So Epaphroditus sicke vnto death indu 〈◊〉 that which in no case was his deseruing or due vnto him hee indured it therefore for the Philippians sake that through his sufferings they might be saued and haue supply of that which was wanting in the reckoning to the sufferings of Christ as good blasphemy as euer was vttered by any enemy of the Grace of Christ I will abide by it Secondly admit it good Catholique truth yet is it not to purpose true for Epaphroditus was then aliue and vpon recouery aliues-like They are and must be dead that bring in their shot to make vp that masse of treasure for the Church and good cause why For though then at present hee had enough at home and also spare to serue others turnes yet wisdome would hee should not be too lauish or profuse for happely hee might haue neede thereof himselfe For your Doctrine also is Hee that standeth may fall No man is sure of his Saluation therefore well is it prouided though you regard it not or know it not that your store is not to be augmented till men are dead Thirdly in your owne construction and learning this Text of Saint Paul will doe you no good For in poynt of supply for Pardons and Indulgences from the Actions and Passions of Saints you admit not of merits but onely satisfactions Now this text serueth if at all for any thing to any purpose for merit and not for satisfaction Lastly you play the Catholique knaue in plaine termes a man may call a spade a spade and him a knaue that so deserueth it For you will conuict vs by our owne Bibles Now in our Bibles wee reade thus Because for the worke of Christ hee was nigh vnto death not regarding his life to supply your lacke of seruice towards mee You cut off these words of seruice towards mee and set vp your rest vpon to supply your lacke as if the defects of the Philippians
the greatest Faith that can be without it is nothing As if it were not in euery Protestants mouth and confessed by these opposers that howbeit Faith alone doth iustifie yet not that Faith which is alone doth iustifie Fides sola but not solitaria Faith that is without Charitie doth not iustifie but Faith may yet iustifie without Charitie They haue their seuerall distinct acts and the act of Faith is to iustifie though both are vertues incident to a iust man As if the Protestants that affirme onely Faith doth iustifie did withall maintaine that all Faith did iustifie or as if hee that proposeth a thing conditionally must needes imply the condition to be reall and true It is a supposition if I had all Faith c. but a supposition of impossibility For it is impossible that all Faith should be without Charitie though some may be and is without it Beside I can answere that the Faith which iustified when it did iustifie to admit the Supposition of possibilitie was not then without Charitie though afterwards it was For in your opinion iustifying Faith may diminish and abolish and be lost Now iustification being in an instant may eftsoones be lost againe Why not and so a seperation of Faith and Loue. Secondly it is contrary to Iam. 2. 24. You see then how that by workes a man is iustified and not by Faith only In this poynt of Iustification as mine and thine are the common barretters of the World so Faith and good Workes haue broken the peace It is the errour of the Protestants say the Papists that Faith onely iustifieth It is the errour of the Papists say the Protestants that Workes doe iustifie Flat ad oppositum at least in tormes And whether should a man belieue Nay more this difference seemeth very ancient and in being when those names of opposition Protestants and Papists were not heard of in the world For Saint Paul saith By Faith without the workes of the Law And Saint Iames saith as positiuely by Workes and not alone by Faith Scripture against Scripture Apostle against Apostle Paul against Iames Iames against Paul Is Christ diuided or the Spirit irresolued or at oddes God forbid At oddes they were then as wee are now I would that wee were at no more oddes now than they then were Controuersies soone might be at an end and Christs Coate diuided soone made vp againe which is dismantled with new rentts daily Saint Paul had great contentions all dayes of his life in the whole course of his ministery with halfe-Christians false-Christians those of Concision as hee termeth them That neged as necessary vnto Saluation workes and obseruing of the Law As if Christ without them did not profit any thing against these hee aduaunceth the excellency and worth of Faith and depresseth the condition of any or all those works of the Law whereupon they insisted on which they relied whereof they gloried Saint Iames on the other side opposeth as much Simon Magus Menander their adherents and that damnable Sect of the Gnosticks that liuing in all brothelry and horrid impieties cast off all care and opinion and account of good workes as being for imperfect ones for simple ones and beginners in Christianity not to be regarded or insued of by themselues who would be counted perfect men in their Generations and through Faith alone as they pretended of neete acquaintance and alliance with God Against these Saint Iames opposeth the necessitie of workes But neither doth Saint Paul deny workes to the Regenerate nor Saint Iames deny the act of Faith Secondly I answere here that Saint Paul speaketh of Iustification in attaining it which in respect of man is confessed to be the act of Faith Saint Iames of Iustification now obtayned which necessarily is not seperate from workes Iustus factus through the Grace of Christ is Iustus declaratus by his holy life and conuersation And so Saint Iames is expounded by your selues or else hath accesse of Iustification as it is also taught by your owne men Iames 2. 14. What doth it profit though a man saith hee hath faith and hath no workes Can faith saue him Nothing at all Not at all For a better saith then that which Saint Iames meant the Faith of the Gnostiques the Deuils had Beside it is a faith onely supposed presumed and in opinion If a man say he hath faith A manifest insinuation it was not reall A Faith boasted of but not had So that this Faith and that other of the Protestants Caelo solo disparantur Nor can they be compared as they are For the Faith of the Protestants generall or speciall I dispute not now is a Faith wrought and infused by God through the Grace of Christ Liuing liuely actiue fruitfull declaring the roote by the good fruit they neuer seperate them in their Doctrine And your men doe blame them because they neuer seperate the Spring and water-course Faith and good workes but they professe it must and doth worke by Loue. And therefore it is a lying imputation that good workes are not necessary to Saluation All Writers old and new as Cassander saith in generall doe with ioynt consent teach that Faith must bring forth the fruit of good workes Otherwise It is a dead faith without workes And hee produceth the Confession of the Protestants thus Fatendum est haec opera quae à iustificatis fiunt ad salutem id est regnum Dei vitam aeternam consequendam esse necessaria iuxta illud si vis ad vitam ingredi serua mandata It must be confessed that the workes which are done of iustified men are necessary to obtaine Saluation that is to purchase the Kingdome of God aâ—deternall life according vnto that If thou wilt enter into life keepe the Commandements And the Church of England expressely teacheth Artic. 12. Albeit that good workes which are the fruits of faith and follow after Iustification cannot put away sinnes and indure the seueritie of Gods iudgement yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ and doe necessarily spring out from a true and liuely Faith Insomuch as that by them a true and liuely faith may as euidently be knowne as a Tree is discerned by the fruit I adde as this mans Spirit is discerned by his lying That of Matth. 7. 22. is so farre from being expresse in the point that it is farre from being to purpose It is not for iustifying of a sinner by workes but rather for relapsing of one iustified by Grace See Fathers that affirme the same Namely that which wee doe teach that Faith alone iustifieth For so all these three named doe Origen Hilary and Ambrose Origen saith Cassander clearely declareth in his Commentaries vpon the Epistle to the Romans Solâ fide absque operibus aliquos fuisse iustificatos That some haue beene iustified by Faith alone without any workes at all The Theefe vpon the Crosse was not saued by workes which hee had not Faith alone saued him
proposeth it resolued and de fide and I knowe no man that doubteth of it that God tempteth no man Quasi aut ignoret fidem cuiusque aut deijcere sit consentiens as out of Ignorance what hee can performe or as consenting to vndoe him But this passage there is nothing in Tertullian that I can ghesse at that we should see And Sir doth this passage come home to purpose of decree vnto life or death Or knowe you any Protestant not so perswaded No thou fore-head of brass and tongue of Say wee are fully resolued with Tertullian that Diaboli est infirmitas et malitia beeing taught by the Prophet to professe Our destruction is of our selues our saluation of the Lord. S. Cyprian they may see that think it worth their labour Lib. 4. Epist 2. or as other Editions haue it Epist 52. and there is nothing to purpose but by consequence hauing cited that saying euen now remembred Wisd 1. 13. God made not death thus he inferreth against the Nouatians rigorous men that denied repentance to lapsed Christians after Baptism Vtique qui neminem vult perire cupit peccatores poenitentiam agere et per poenitentiam denuo ad vitam redire Because he would not that any should perish his desire is that Sinners should repent and by Repentance reuert to life againe Doe Protestants deny Returne of the Lapsâ—d vnto God or Grace to Repentants after Fall If we doe this testimony may gagge our mouthes if not as we do not then gaggeth it your owne mouth Sir Goose Saint Ambrose will not nor Saint Augustine nor any else whose brains are his owne as yours are not God fore-sawe it in Adam and in Iudas but Prescience inferreth not Predestination For not because foreseene therefore effected but because effected therefore foreseene The Treason of Iudas the Fall of Adam God fore-sawe and suffred this is certaine God was Author of neyther Positiuely That Good which they had they had from God this Woe and Vnhappinesse came from themselues Priuate opinions we vndertake not you should not in discretion much lesse in honesty impute it vnto vs. Your ayme is against the Church of England Quarrell that if you can vndertake against it if you dare For what my word is past I will make it good against all your Bandogges of Belzebub whatsoeuer That Church maintaineth nothing against the Faith of the antient Church of Christ resolued on for 500 yeeres XXII That euery one ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation and to hold that he is of the number of the Predestinate NOw you ramble indeed your penne runs too fast your malice sent your wit I suppose on wooll-gathering Where finde you this conclusion in the Church of England where in any mans mouth or writings in the Church of England that Euery one ought so to assure himselfe Hee that saith Euery one excepteth none not genera singulorum any kinde of men not singulos generum no particular man Be you well in your wits to bely your selfe in belying of vs and so soone to forget what you said but now For those that maintaine as you say the Protestants doe that some are damned and some are saued by an ineuitable decree cannot bee of opinion except their braines were made like yours of the pap of an apple that Euery one ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation which implieth a contradiction vnto that other Tenet So that in one of these two auoyd it if you can you haue belyed your selfe to bely vs. And bely vs you do For where do you find it thus concluded by the Church of England Answere on your Honesty if you can nay bely them you doe that come somewhat to your purpose whose priuate opinions you make publique decisions of Faith Bellarmine your grand Dictator of controuersies from whose tables you or your Informers haue swept together all these scrappes and fragments in your bare abbridgement proposeth the assertion honestly and truly in restrained tearms of Verè fidelis and Iustificatus That not Euery one but Euery true beleeuer ought so to be assured that no man is or can bee so assured but the man that is iustified before God And that is not euery one as you bely them They teach not that euery man is iustified This opinion is an inference vpon that former of Necessity of Election vnto life and therefore those Protestants who make not the former an Article of their Creed build vpon no such infallibility vnto themselues nor prescribe it to be beleeued of others And those that so doe are not peraduenture so forlorne as such a simple man as you may imagine hauing Papists of reckoning to beare them company and Fathers Reasons and Scriptures therefore Ambrose Catharine was no Baby as great a Stickler as any in the Councell of Trent in his owne opinion superior to most in all mens iudgement inferior to none who for ought I knowe went as farre as any in particular and ordinary assurance of saluation Before In After the Councell of Trent against Dominicus a Soto that maintained the contrary Silly man as you are you can play in ambiguities and talk at randome freely when no man is neere to oppose or contradict you Your Masters can teach you that Assurance is twofold in this discourse In respect of the Obiect knowne belieued in regard of the Subject beleeuing knowing As man relieth vpon his Euidence or as is his Euidence to rely vpon Euidence is diuine or humane from God or Man Euidence diuine if apprehended is euer certaine and infallible both for the necessity of our object God in whom is nor change nor shadow of change as also for the manner of determining the Euidence whereby that is certaine and necessary for effect which is but contingent otherwise in it selfe Euidence most cleere assurance most certaine in it selfe is contingent vncertaine as we may both vse it or dispose it that are heere and there of and on because man is irresolute in his waies and vnconstant in his works God is to vs as wee are to him knowne as farre as wee can reach to apprehend him Thus then for those men that assert infallibility of assurance Their meaning may bee for ought you know I am sure for ought you haue said to the contrary that in regard of God faithfull and true in respect of his promises Yea and Amen euery Childe of God renued by Grace may and ought infallibly assure himselfe of his owne Saluation procured in Christ who yet in regard of his owne Infirmity and Inconstancy cannot chuse but wauer in his assurance and feare the worst though he hope the best This was Austens resolution if Bellarmine say right Ex promissione Christi potest vnusquisque vt S. Augustinus rectè docet colligere se transusse à morte ad vitam et in iudicium non ventre Euery man may collect thus out of the promise of Christ but with what assurance the question is thereto
Saint Augustine doth not proceed Weresolue saith he there that a man may collect it by infallible assurance and diuine if wee looke into the faithfulnesse of him that promiseth but if wee consider our owne disposition we assigne no more but probable and coniectural assurance This Bellarmine assigneth This is enough Faction may transport a man to wrangle for more but when once they ioyne issue the difference will not be much Much or little great or small thus or so the Church of England is not touched that designeth neither Vngratefull Colt you are that spurne with your heeles at the brests that gaue you life if not to God yet to nature and impute more vnto her then she meant or intended to determine or maintaine Indeed contrary as you bely them consonant agreeing as they beleeue and maintaine They neuer went against these words of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 9. 27. Lest by any meanes when I preached to others I my selfe should be a Cast-away But they say you mistake and mis-apply those words and therein goe against your owne Directors For their Tenet is that Saint Paul was assured of his saluation whether by ordinary diuine Faith or extraordinary diuine Reuelation I enquire not at present nor much care I take which you ignorantly doo contradict or vnlearnedly doo oppose Secondly you oppose plain Scripture in your Bibles for Saint Paul a Iew by birth as Bellarmine resolueth semper se in numero Electorum point cùm de Praedestinatione loquitur Rom. 8. 9 11. Eph. 1. accounteth himself euer in the Roll of Elect wheresoeuer he mentioneth Predestination as in the 8. 9 11. chapters to the Romans and 1. to the Ephesians And yet say you He was not assured infallibly He dissembled therfore thought one thing said another So much is That Apostle beholding to you They neuer went against him that you intend in those other two Texts of Rom. 11. 20. Philip. 2. 12. For to him that continueth faithfull vnto the end is appointed the reward of eternall life And yet it is possible and I could doo it to puzzle such a Lozzell as your self with expositions of those Texts that might well put off your application but I vndertake no priuate opinions or peculiar interest I iustifie no man but the Church of England That I can doo against your Betters that I will perform against your self A cleanly Put-off but too common and therefore to be smiled-at for your pouerty You will not labour to ouerthrowe it by proof of Fathers For why Your good Patrons were themselues to-seek and you haue but reuersions from other meâ—â— trenchers If it were so improbable as you would haue vs suppose it Catharine could not haue maintained it as he hath done nor put Dominicus à Soto no Baby so to it as I knowe hee hath nor backed it with authorities of Austen and others If so improbable I maruell the Councell of Trent did so hardly passe it and two Legates of three or foure at most professe it went too soon out of their fingers and came to resolution before it had throughly been decided What Spirit directed that Councell in this where the Principall in a sort complains of surreption This I haue from no Heretick Catharine related it from their mouthes He you haue heard was an Arch-bishop of great name and as learned as many were in Trent But I proceed XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell-keeper THis fellow it seemeth had but little emploiment when he vndertook to abridge our Controuersies he is so apt and disposed to enlarge them and set them at odds who would willingly haue been quiet Such Boutifeus as he is hinc ad malam crucem quibus quieta moâ—ere magna merces that loue to see the waters troubled and take the very questioning of things that might rest a sufficient hire to set them on worke that the Father of Diuision may applaude them and crie Oh well done For concerning Angell-keepers what needed this Thesis A thing not defined in any Councell no not in that last Conuenticle of Trent because free and in Opinion euery way The most that can be sayd against Opposers is that of Vasques disputing this Diuinitie probleme Sine graui temeritatis notâ negare non licet VVee cannot deny without very great rashnes that euery man hath his Angell-keeper To this I subscribe with all my heart so doth the Church of England for ought I knowe Indeede I do not finde Decision or Resolution one way or other in the Confession publike of our Church No more do I in any Councell generall or particular to my remembrance in any age The reason is no man did question it all held it a truth and what needed decision where no scruple was The opinion of the antient Schoole the Fathers of the Church is positiue and affiâ—matiue for Angel-Keepers the saying of Saint Augustine is well knowne Parum est fecisse Angelos tuos fecisti et custodes parâ—ulorum It sufficed not my God that thou madest them thine Angels thou createdst them keepers of the little ones The later Schoole runnes mightily the same way though both with some differences How and To Whom and when deputed Before Origens time and he liued long within 300 yeeres after Christ as himselfe relateth Tract 5. vpon Saint Mathew there were two different opinions in the Church The former maintained that onely those had Angell-keepers deputed vnto them who were of the number of Gods elect from the first instant of their Natiuity The other that none but such holy men indeed had Angel-guardians but from the day of their Baptisme and new Birth in Christ assigned them not before or from their Natiuitie This was the opinion of Antiquitie and no more not as the Church of Rome hath enlarged it that Euery man liuing good and bad from the verie first instant of life to the last gaspe hath an Angel-guardian deputed vnto him as I could make manifest if need were and Basil is punctuall and expresse vpon the 33. Psal page 221. and the 48. Psal page 247. Nor doth the Master of Sentences otherwise conceiue it then Vt quisque Electorum habeat Angelum ad sui protectum atque custodiam specialiter deputatum In 2. d. 11. So that hic Magister non tenetur our Roman Vndertakers haue forsaken not alone the Fathers but their owne Doctor Peter Lumbard to enlarge the point And yet this giddy Goose-gaggler must prate he knoweth not what against the Church of England concerning Angell-keepers in this point who with as good reason and to as great purpose mought haue stirred touching Guardians of Kingdomes Cities Corporations Elements and ordering of the world touching the time when the maner how the extent how farre and many other like speculations all disputed of among Diuines in the Church none resolued of as de fide by Diuines for the Church So that had we denied it no such great matter for salus Ecclesiae non
Augustine of your owne And doo you mark it that I say your owne for this Saint Augustine is none of mine It is ser 29. in which this passage is not 39 as you mis-report it which is a Counterfet vnder S. Austen's name as the Louanists and other your owne men obserue There is a Commemoration of Saint Peter ' s chain you keep an Holi-day in memory thereof Augusti 1 and yet Saint Peter ' s Chain as Baronius obserueth was not found vntill Saint Augustine was dead Had the man been as he would seem Saint Augustine yet might hee haue been deceiued in his collection as wel as in somewhat else noted by Lorinus that hither tendeth For de Catechis rudib 23. he deliuereth that The shadow of Saint Peter passing along in the streets restored a dead man to life Do you finde this written in your Bibles I suppose not S. Augustine did without doubt in his or how is it that he saith it Therfore the Papists Bible hath left something out aswell as the Protestants Look vnto it and answer it as you can Acts 19. 11 12. And God wrought speciall miracles by the hands of Paul so that from his body were brought vnto the sick handkerchiefs and aprons and the diseases departed from them and the euill spirits went out of them Therfore what Vertue proceeded from Saint Paul when he was dead I deny that for Saint Paul was then aliue and aliues like Therefore this is for the liuing not the dead And yet take mee not so that I deny the thing Vertue may proceed from the true Saints of God dead and aliue I deny your proof and wonder at your wit that can go ab equis ad asinâ—s so easily as if both were fit Inmates for such an Animal as your self Asse Horse you for such prouender S. Chrysostome might very well inferre vpon the passages of Saint Peter and Saint Paul that Christ their Lord and Master was truely God whose seruants in his Name and by his Power nay their shadows and napkins did such wonders for Could any man do so except God were with him But all this winde shakes no corn First this vertue was not inherent onely incident Secondly it was miraculous so peculiar Thirdly it was Then those Times are done those napkins gone into Materia prima Shew such napkins or shadows and wee yeeld For no man doubteth what hath been done or may be done we go no further than to what is See more you so direct vs and wee had need or else we shall see your proofs by halues for hitherto wee haue onely heard of vertue proceeding from the Dead nothing touching keeping of Bones and Reliques Now haue at them or else neuer and indeed neuer for Ioseph's bones were carried by Moses out of Egypt What then Therefore bones of holy men may by warrant of that be digged vp shrined and preserued Happely they may in some cases but not therefore for this was a singular Fact which are no precedents for generall rules One Swallow maketh not Summer nor one Woodcock Winter but among Birds of that Bill and Feather Secondly as it was singular in Fact so speciall in Reason There was a Tie vpon Israel to doo that which they did Ioseph dying had bound them with an oath to do so Had our Lady so bound you for her smock or her milk you were excused Thirdly they carried them thence not to keep them which is your Tenet much less to shrine them or adore them which is your practice but to bury them in the Land of Canaan which they did Ios 24. 32. Doo you in like sort and wee applaud you with your Reliques So we see in this first place no more than wee looked for nothing to purpose nor in the second 2. Reg. 4. 8. Eliseus taketh vp Elias cloak that fell from him and wrapping it together smote the waters of Iordane which parted asunder A Text seeming to say somewhat for Elias cloak is Relictum a Relique to Eliseus and he took it But this is verse 14. not 8. but not yet a Relick for our purpose For what he did with it is not remembred it is like enough Eliseus wore it out We read not what he did with it whether he laid it vp and left it to posterity to be adored vnless you can prooue this you say nothing otherwise in your sense it is no Relique For keeping and adoring is all in all for them But let it be kept Eliseus did no more than I or any Protestant else should haue done For you mistake vs. The Reliques of Saints are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with vs we dishonour not their garments much lesse their bodies hauing beene the Temples of the holy Ghost beeing againe to bee raised from the dust and be made like Christs glorious body By and in them at sundry times God hath miraculously magnified himselfe in his Power as when the body of Babylas made the Oracle mute in despight of Iulian that Renegado Then especially when there was great cause when Paganisme Persecution Opposition swayed for the manifestation of that Truth which in them by them had beene propagated Shew any such Relique and see what wee say vnto it It is naturall for any man to affect the remembrance or memorials of a friend to admire and make much of rare things not euery day seene Bring mee then a piece of the Crosse of our Sauiour one of the Nailes or some such memoriall of his Passion shew mee Moses Râ—d Saint Peter's Sword I will prize them aboue all the Iewels I can haue Will this content you I know no Protestant will doe lesse then so Worship them I dare not Shew them as you doe I would not as men do monsters in Fleet-street or Sturbridge Faire in this you abuse them too profanely making merchandize of the Word of God In that you profane them to Idolatry misleading the People to adore them This did not Antiquity nor doe wee In the Primitiue Church Memoriae Martyrum were in great esteem The place where they suffred or else where they were buried Heere commonly their Church-meetings were for diuine Seruice for receiuing the Sacraments with commemoration of their Passion and a collation to follow their noble Acts which was seconded with this opinion that those blessed Soules themselues by speciall grace and dispensation of God took notice of that generall Act of the whole Church and accompanied their deuotions with their own best assistance vnto the Maiesty of Heauen But times are changed mens manners altred Those Saints Reliques Memories and Oratories of the true Saints of God gon no where to be found coozening colluding fraud impiety come in place The miracles memories reliques of Saints in your Romane Church are all of them knowne to bee iuggling tricks of deceiuing knaues and if Saint Martin were aliue againe hee might finde out onely one mans Reliques but many thousands to bee the bones of theirs that died at the
sanctifieth but the true employment of the thing We neuer read it warranted that creatures may bee abused or ms-imployed Are they not therefore fooles to returne your owne words vpon your self that produce these passages for such stuffe as holy bread c which as they are vsed in your Antiques may with reason be hooted at by Boyes Holy bread with you is an apish Imitation of that antient practice in the Primitiue Church whereby a part of the consecrated Host in and for the Sacrament called Eulogia was sent vnto the adjoyning parishes or diocesses and imparted vnto strangers that came vnto them as a signe pledge and assurance of mutuall loue and confederation in the same faith a thing prohibited afterward in the councell of Laodicea but re-assumed and long time frequented in the Church which growing at last into disuse in the Latine Church especially Bread began to bee blessed indeed but not consecrated for or in the Communion which in Paulinus Augustine and others is named Eulogia or Panis Catechumenorum The Catecumeni beeing not baptized could not bee imparted with the body of Christ but receiued Bread blessed by the Priest for their vse and eating as an assurance of that Communion whereof in due time they were to be made partakers The later Church abused this practice of the Antients imploying it as spells or amulets to cast out diuils to heale diseases to keepe men from danger whereto nor God nor man had designed it antiently The forme of consecrating it is this in Burchard Cap. 28. Lord God Almighty vouchsafe to blesse this Bread with thy holy and spirituall benediction that it may become health of soule and body vnto all a defence and safegard against all diseases and all the assaults and deceits of the enemie through our Lord Iesus Christ thy Sonne the Bread of Life who came downe from Heauen brought life and saluation into the world who liueth and raigneth with thee for euer Was any thing thus consecrated 1. Tim. 4. 4. Mat. 23. 17. 19 Or any water any where to the like purpose to bee sprinkled in houses to driue away Fayries and Hobgoblins to remoue the lets and impediments which might hinder the receiuing of the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar to put out the guilt and tainture of originall sinne I finde no such thing in Scripture or the Primitiue times I doe in the Rituals and Pontificals of the Pagans Nam et sacris quibusdaminitiantur Isidis alicuius aut Mithrae Ipsos etiam Deos suos lauationibus efferunt villas domos templa totasque vrbes asperginâ— circumlatae aquae expiant passim Tertullian speaketh of Pagan superstitions and it agreeth vnto your fopperies point by point Such hallowing and sacring of the Creature as of ashes bells and other bables are farre enough remooued from that sanctification of the Creature in Saint Paul vnto holy and religious or common vses Saint Paul neuer baptized or blessed a bell to cleere the ayre asswage stormes and tempests help against lightning and thunder driue away diuels and wicked spirits that would hinder good Christians from going to Church or righteous soules from passing through the ayre into Heauen Such old wiues tales I finde not in Saint Paul nor in Saint Basil whom we are directed to see Lib. 2. de baptismo but for what or where-about I professe my ignorance I cannot tell and yet I haue Basil and haue read him Transeat therefore till I know what and where I should see Basil I must suspend my answer vnto his authority XXXIII That children may bee saued by their parents faith without Baptisme THe man when hee vndertook this gagging taske opposed himselfe intentionally against our Church in which regard with what face with what forehead can he thus impudently bely vs knowing in his conscience our Doctrine our practice to the contrary and that wee haue beene put to maintaine and iustifie it against schismaticall humors not Papists but Puritans at home In the very first Instep to the forme of Administration of Baptisme wee professe All men be conceiued and borne in sinne wee adde alledging our Sauiours words None can enter into the Kingdome of God except he bee regenerate and borne anew of water and the holy Ghost Beeing assured that as Truth hath spoken it so it is impossible ordinarily for a man to bee saued that is not baptized Vpon which perswasion of that necessity of water and the holy Ghost wee following the vse and warrant of Antiquity haue tolerated practised and defended priuate Baptisme at home by Lay-people and yet this shamelesse Detractor chargeth vs to hold That children may bee saued by the Parents faith without Baptisme as if it were vnnecessary One man peraduenture thought so that the children of the Faithfull that were in Christ might ordinarily be saued without Baptism I say peraduenture for it appeareth not that he held it of ordinary course nor referred it to the Parents faith but vnto that Couenant of grace I will be thy God and the God of thy Seed as euen Bellarmine his Aduersary confesseth touching him who yet is nothing vnto vs. Touching the necessity of Baptism there hath bin variation euer in the Church and yet euer a necessity held vpon all hands more or lesse For Antiquity supplied the want of water by blood Martyrs not baptized went to heauen The ineuitable want of water by the Spirit in desire and assured faith if it might bee had in Christ the Author and End of it For as in little Infants the faith of the Church and those that present them to be baptized is by God reputed their owne so the willingnes and desire of the same Church of their Godfathers and Parents is reputed theirs So that no absolute necessity in opinion of Antiquity and indispensable was held of our Sauiours Asseueration Except a man bee born anew of water and the holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdome of heauen Which necessity thus qualified by Antiquity some late Writers haue qualified further vpon other grounds as namely that supposed Decree of God touching absolute necessity of saluation which admitted yet includeth a subordination of meanes As Paul and his company were determinately saued from perishing by sea yet he told them it could not be except the Sailers staied so nor Gods Decree be accomplished without means which is water and the holy Ghost ordinarily Others it may be haue qualified it from the state faith and interest of their parents which if it be so is but a priuate opinion of some men not the doctrine of this or any Protestant Church that I knowe You would bee loth to maintain all priuate opinions in the Church of Rome The most that wee haue said thereof is Of the will of God to impart his grace vnto infants without Baptism in that case the very circumstance of their naturall birth may serue as a iust argument Whereupon it is not to be mis-liked that men in charitable presumption do gather a
maintained and iustifiable Article 32. Bishops Priests and Deacons are not commanded by Gods Lawe eyther to vow the estate of single life or to abstaine from marriage Therefore it is lawfull also for them as for all other Christian men to marry at their owne discretion as they shall iudge the same to serue better vnto godlinesse I finde no vow mentioned in this Article nor leaue giuen to marry notwithstanding vow it is your addition to scandalize the Doctrine which otherwise you durst not touch Marriage is honourable amongst all men This you doe not deny that single life is essentiall vnto the Clergie and indispensable none of your side affirmeth that I know but nonus Dogmatistes in Italiâ as Cassander calleth him Francisco Tunia◠the Iesuite It is but an Ecclesiasticall sanction this both you and we set downe It is not deined but notwithstanding that generall licence to all the Church may restraine marriage vnto some at some time vpon some occasions as wee vse in our Colledges at this day which is no restraint but a condition tendred Leaue your fellowship if you marry The Primitiue Church vsed I deny not this conditionall restraint in some cases to some men vpon some occasion they might so doe without tax or blame and so may you or wee for ought I know with moderation or discretion So the question is not Whether Priests may marry but Whether it bee conuenient for them so to doe You say no neuer at no time Wee deny this rigor and leaue it indifferent to their owne discretion resoluing that at some time for some causes it is conuenient and to bee permitted to some men at some time for some considerations it may be denied to marry Your Church for reasons best known to her selfe though apparant enough to all hath a long time doated vpon single life of Priests for I cannot say chaste and the better to secure her selfe of that state hath laid a tye of conscience a band by oath vpon them admitting none to holy orders but such as first solemnly take that vow which hath many times often filled your Churches with knaues and dunses abundantly honester men and discreet Scholars refusing such a tye Wee aduise you not to break your vow perswade not your selues so we counsell and aduise you by all meanes to keep it liue honest marry freely if you be free if not we say not to you Do as Alexander did with Gordius knot Cut it in pieces when you cannot vndo it It was ill to vow so vnaduisedly worse to force you to it on no necessity yet worse to break it securely with presūptiō butworst of all adhinnire after fresh maidenheads or neighbors beds cōtinually We say you did ill to vow absolutely that which was not in your power to performe a mischief past that cannot bee remedied must bee relieued what it may If you haue vowed keepe it on Gods name it is sinne to breake it I make no question of it which was deliberately discreetly possibly promised in things not against nature common right or reason for euen in a bond a condition euill impious or impossible is voyd and bindeth not they say I deny not vowes in the new Testament they may bee meanes vnto and parts of Gods worship as well in the new Testament as the old So Gregory Nazianzen imposed a vow vpon himselfe not to take the name of God in vaine and kept it So haue many other lawfully and profitably done doe you so and we commend you for it The Texts you produce doe not one of them speak of the marriage of Priests or religious persons or any other that vowed chastity vnto God of vowes they speake and of vowes to be kept but Quid haec ad Bacchum Your promise was your vndertaking is to prooue by expresse words of our owne Bibles that the vowes of Priests and religious persons touching single life should bee kept and yet neyther doe wee deny the one nor you prooue the other See your honesty in this also and insufficiency to performe XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded vpon holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good FAsting is abstaining from all meates or from som certaine meates the first istruly Fasting which must bee limited and confined to a time for so totally to fast is impossible The second is dieting rather then fasting and yet is that which this man principally meaneth by Fasting as speaking according to the tongue of Ashdod in the Church of Rome that is more for appearances then true substances Fasting is manifold obiectiuely as it hath beene practised by Iewes by Pagans by Christians This man should speak of the Christian Fast onely but huddleth all altogether without distinction Fasting is distinct subiectiuely Among Christians there is or may be vnderstood a naturall a morall an ecclesiasticall Fast for necessity for remedy conueniencie policy piety This addle-headed Fellow cares not to put a difference between the kindes nor to adde quantity to his position that men might know where to haue him and finde what he should say He cannot be ignorant that we commend Fasting as a profitable help vnto deuotion and piety Hee cannot chuse but knowe that wee command it not onely for ciuil but religious ends and vse it in times of speciall note for fitting dispatches of principall alloy In our Ember-weeks for giuing of Orders in our Lent to humble our selues against Easter vpon the Vigils of Saints and other set daies which we ground vpon Scripture and vse to this purpose To cause spirituall good So Scriptures and Fathers serue to no purpose being brought to proue that which is not denied We ground it on Scripture but not that alleaged of the Rechabites We haue warrant sufficient from Christian practice and direction We need no addresse to Iewish either Nazarits or else Rechabites for example and if we should yet what haue we to do with this pretended They drank no wine at all none of them for euer as the Icthyophagi of Aethiopia eat no flesh a generall custome no Fast They did it out of a politick respect because they were strangers in the Land Wee must haue a religious example to serue our turn And lastly they were yet vnder the Law the Vow of the Nazarite might as well bee pleaded and all Iewish Ceremonies for obseruation vnto Christians So ignorant is this Idle-pate Otherwise wee ground Fasting vpon holy Scripture and could adde many moe places of Fathers to be seen the true end and intent whereof is double 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bee anointed with the holy Ghost and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bee washed and rinsed from our sinnes but it needs not It sufficeth onely we confesse most willingly the ground of Fasting to be diuine the vse of Fasting to be singular So these goodly proofs touch not vs at all Vse them against those that vse not Fasts for lastly it is our practice XLI That Iesus Christ