euen in his sight and presence Now what can this second beast be but the Lambe skinned Dragon tongued Prelacy of Rome and what other beast did the Romane Empire euer yeeld vnto but this onely whereof it followeth that the first beast is not onely the heathenish Emperours but the succession in generalitie for the heathenish neuer yeelded any of their heads to be cured by the Romish Dragon nay marke further where the g Apoc. cap. 18. holy Ghost teacheth that this first beast that hath seuen heads and ten hornes is ridden by the scarlet coloured whore of Baylon which cannot be vnderstood singly of the heathenish Emperours but generally of the Empire of Rome which at length yeelded his backe to bee sadled and ridden by that Babylonish Harlot which h Cap. 19.20 is afterward called a false prophet Wherefore as I sayd before so I say againe come i Reu. 18.4 out of Babylon that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receiue not of her plagues O mercifull Father open our eyes that we may see the vglinesse of Poperie in the cleere glasse of thy holy word and still teach vs by the continuall experience of thy gratious fauor and protection to take heed of the sauage designements of the Romish Dragon Hardwicke the 28. of Ianuarie 1606. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Lectorem Corporis angusto mihi pes fuit alter in antro Mens quoque vi socia corporis aegra fuit Ne pigeat tamen hunc librum percurrere patris aegroti sanus filius esse potest Debilis aura vias solet exiccare palustres Et lapides magnos guttula parua cauat The Contents Sectio 1. Questions touching the Church Scriptures Fathers and Traditions in generall by way of Introduction Sectio 2. Of the Lords day eating blood maryage within degrees of affinitie polygamy and punishming theft whether they be determined by scripture or Tradition Sectio 3. 4. Of Traditions in generall Sectio 5. Whether the Fathers holding certaine points of Papistrie be therefore excluded out of our Church Sectio 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Of praying for the dead Sectio 11. 12. 13. 14. Of Purgatorie Sectio 15. 16. 17. 18. Of Transubstantiation Sectio 19. Of prayer to Saints Sectio 20. 21. 22 Of vowing chastitie and Priests mariage Sectio 23. Of the errours of the ancient Fathers Sectio 24. Of Iustification by merite of our owne workes and the superabundant workes of the Saints Sectio 25. Of free-will to merite heauen Sectio 26. Of the power of the keyes ouer the quicke and the dead Sectio 27. A Conclusion containing certaine generall inducements that Poperie is the true way that leadeth blinde men and fooles to heauen so as they cannot erre and that our Religion is an inexplicable Labirinth that hath no direction which is plaine blasphemie against God the author and inspirer of the Scripture A BRIEFE ANSVVERE to a Popish Dialogue between two Gentlemen the one a Papist the other a Protestant The Dialogue Sectio I. PApist Doe you beléeue the Catholicke Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed through the whole world which Church hath euer since remained on earth and shall so continue vntil the second comming of Christ Protestant All this I doe beleeue Pap. Are the Protestants of this Church or the Papists or both Pro. The Protestants onely Pap. Haue you any outward meanes to perswade you that the Protestants are onely of this Church or are you mooued thereunto by inspiration onely Pro. The inward meanes is the spirite of God the outward is the canonicall Scripture Pap. This inward meanes lyeth hidden in your owne breast but how do you by this outward meane discerne the true Church Pro. That church which doth teach practise the doctrine conteined in the canonicall Scriptures is the true Church of Christ cōtrariwise that church which in matters of faith teacheth a VVittingly and wilfully any doctrine repugnant or not grounded vpon the same word is an hereticall Church a synagogue of Satan Pap. The Scriptures you say are the outward meane for discerning of the true Church haue you some outward meanes to discerne the canonicall Scriptures or doe you know them by inspiration onely Pro. The outward meane is the vniforme b There be other outward meanes beside the consent of antiquitie consent of all antiquitie Pap. You doe then receiue the testimonie of ancient writers for the discerning of the canonicall Scriptures why doe you not likewise beléeue that the Apostles did leaue many things to be obserued in the Church by tradition without writing séeing that the one and the other is confirmed by the like vniforme consent of ancient writers Pro. The Scripture is the sure rocke whereon to build our faith wherein all things are contained necessarie for our saluation The Answere IT is a common saying that such as doe deficere in extremo actu faile in the last act are foolish Poets but whether they be foolish Diuines or no that faile euerie where beginning and ending and all iudge you and that you may doe it the better obserue I pray you how vntowardly this popish Diuine begins to lay his foundation that you may the better iudge of the whole frame of his building The word Catholicke is taken three maner of wayes first for that which is opposed to heretical or schismaticall as Ecclesia Catholica the Catholicke Church and Ecclesia Martyrum the Church of the Martyrs Haeresi 68. in Epiphanius Secondly for that which is opposed to the Church of the Iewes for such a signification hath the word Catholicke in the inscription of Saint Iames his Epistle Lastly for the generall fellowship of all the children of God elected and adopted in Christ Iesu before the foundations of the world for none else can bee the members of the bodie of Christ Eph. 1.23 Colos 1.24 and in this signification it is taken in our Creed Now it would be knowne which of these significations is meant in the first question the first signification restraineth the word Catholicke to particular Churches it is not like that your Papist demaundeth whether you beleeue this or that Church in particular Againe the second opposeth the word Catholicke to the church of Iurie wheras your Papist includeth the church of Iurie before there was any other church any where planted in his question saying Doe you beléeue the catholique Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed c. The last signification is applied to the Saints of God predestinated to saluation 2. Tim. 2.19 which Church was neuer planted by the Apostles but by the eternall decree of God who onely knoweth who are his Againe I can hardly brooke that the Church is here said to be first planted by the Apostles for God had his Church euer from the beginning or that it hath remained euer since the Apostles planted it for it hath
with Iohn Caluine as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done I doubt not but that although he would not haue allowed of traditions yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word as hée hath done for the Sabbath for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon you will make any homely shift rather than you wil acknowledge the true i Tradition a fountaine in Poperie fountaine from whence it springeth and no maruell for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions which k If you may doe what you lift we cannot stand by the testimonie of all antiquitie were first deliuered by the Apostles and haue euer since béen obserued and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops and your heresie wil fall to the ground The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture is that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell Pro. It is manifest that in the infancy of the church the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time which in the Gospell were abolished and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ whereof abstayning from bloud is one and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem was vpon this occasion they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized because the Gentiles who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith had vtterly reiected their law whervpon much controuersie did arise between them the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised and to obserue the lawe of Moses and the Gentiles to the contrarie For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood by eating whereof as it seemeth the weake Iewes were greatly offended intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs. Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion eating of bloud which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell and to christians in the Gospell is now lawfull for vs to doe that the law prescribed to the Iewes concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie is still to be retained and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue is to be abolished that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified with many other such like instances too long to repeat when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures you shall finde n Else are you deceiued no other warrant for them than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie which is warrant sufficient for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place for the text saith onely There is a o The fornication had not been so haynous if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law fornication among you not once named among the heathen that a man should haue his fathers wife it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place that the Fornication here specified was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p All this is but vaine talke that helpes him not awhit for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated as it may be gathered out of the text for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths and therefore this Fornication was committed by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore and not as a wife as you imagine The Answere YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds which wee by our description of the Church haue giuen to our owne cause and therefore your description must bee had in memorie which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ sounding in the canonicall Scriptures so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ and so erre whereby the first wound is fully healed and if it should be graunted that the Church in generall cannot erre yet it followeth not that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation is therefore no member of the Church And so the second wound which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers Doctors is neither mortall nor sensible Now touching the first wound which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane it is here brought to certaine particular points which I will speake of in order The first is the obseruation of the Sunday which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture after this manner 1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacraments and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians 2. But the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purpose before mentioned Ergo The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Now where your Papist saith That if the Maior were true then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
Bishop to Bishop to know and certifie the state of al Churches and yet that policy could not worke faith further then the credite of the man which is a poore stay for a christian conscience Verily the credite of men is but a sandye foundation to build vpon in matters not written seeing your Papist was so fouly ouerseene in the community of all things a matter written in great letters and so determined in the worde of God that all open eyes may see and perceiue that it was neuer vniuersally practised and whereas it pleaseth him to talke of weedes and bastard plants that they could not still remaine without checke or contradiction I am sure he hath read in Matthew Sap. 13.25 that while men slept the enuious man sewd tares among the wheat and that both should grow together vntill haruest and therefore no maruell though the mystery of iniquitie grew on stil by little and little by reason of mens sleepines and wrought closely without any effectuall contradiction otherwise it had not beene a mystery yet notwithstanding when once it was growne so out of fashion that men saw how vgly and mishapen it was 2. Thes 2.7.8 then the spirite of the Lords mouth began to consume it and when haruest is come it shall be abolished neither is it maruell that Councels and catholicke Doctors slept while the tares of Anti-christian Religion were a sowing and so ignorantly gaue their helping hand to the inthronizing of the man of sinne Apoc. 2.13 c. for the Angell of Pergamus was a faithfull seruant of God yet Satan had erected himselfe a throne in his Church to teach the doctrine of Baalam Apo. 2.19 c. and the Nicholaitans which God hated the like may be sayd of that worthy Angell of Thyatira of whom God gaue testimonie that hee knewe his loue seruice faith patience and workes to be more at the last than at the first yet hee suffered the woman Iezabel to deceiue the seruants of God The Dialogue Sectio V. PAp Now let vs returne from whence we haue digressed that is to say vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I haue sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause by a How prooue you that wee haue excluded them excluding out of your Church all the ancient Catholick Fathers and Doctors for admit that you could by expounding wresting of scriptures intrude your selfe into such a Church as holdeth no Doctrine but such as is warranted by the canonicall Scriptures b Nonsequitur yet must you leaue out of the same Church as Heretickes and Scismatickes all the ancient Fathers and Bishops of the Latine and Greeke Churches neither are you c you measure vs by your selues able to name any time or place where or when your Church was extant or any one Bishop or principall member thereof Pro. What points of Doctrine are they which the antiquitie did hold without warrant of scripture what ancient Fathers Doctors Bishops were they that held such doctrine Pap. In a word they were all Papists which being prooued you will not denie the consequent d All the Fathers held not these points and some of these points were bastards and haue no knowne Fathers they held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation they offered a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead they prayed to Saints held also vowes of chastitie the vnlawfulnesse of Priests marriage and the descention of Christs soule into Hell call you not this Papistry I am sure you had rather be in your Church alone than to be troubled with such papisticall Companions now shall you heare e All this hath nothing in it but facing the opinion of euerie Doctor deliuered by his owne penne in such plaine words as you shall not be able by any glosse or distinction to peruert but must néedes confesse that they were all out of your new Church I will begin with prayer for the dead and so goe on in order The Answere THe second wound is come at length to the searching namely that all the ancient Fathers and Bishops must bee excluded as heretickes and scismatickes out of our Church and why so Marry because they held certaine points of Doctrine not warranted by the canonicall Scriptures is not this a deepe wound thinke ye wee say indeed that no other doctrine ought to bee curtant in the Church but such as hath the image and superscription of the Canonicall Scriptures but doe you therefore say that all such as haue beene carried beyond those limits through ignorance or infirmitie Cyprian lib. 2. Epist 3. are to be put out for wranglers Si quis de antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc obseruauit tenuit quod nos dominus facere exemplo magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati eius de indulgentia domini venia concedi nobis vero non poterit ignosci qui nunc à domino admoniti instructi sumus If any of our Predecessors either of ignorance or simplicity did not obserue and keepe this which the Lord by his example and commandement hath taught the Lord of his mercie may pardon his simplicitie but wee after wee haue beene admonished and instructed so of the Lord may looke for no pardon Thus sayd Cyprian of the Aquarians that were before him and so say we of the ancient Fathers that haue added the timber hay and stubble of traditions to the gold siluer and precious stones of Scripture howbeit see I pray you how your Papist hanges the principall pillars of his Religion vpon tradition and all to wring out the Fathers out of our Church The Fathers were all Papists and held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation Sacrifice for quicke and dead prayer to dead Saints vowes of chastitie the single life of Priests and the descention of Christs soule into hell all these trim points of learning you shall heare now so prooued by tradition out of euerie Doctor as you must confesse to bee super excellent yet take heed you do not expound these words euerie Doctor heretically after the imagination of your owne braine for I dare assure you he neuer saw the couers of euerie Doctor and therefore you may not vnderstand them simply as they sound but charitably for so many as haue writings extant and could be intreated of this suddain to speake an ambiguous word or two in these matters The Dialogue Sectio VI. Prayer for the dead EPiphanius lib. 3. To. primo Cap. 75. It appeareth there that the Hereticke Aerius was of your opinion a And of yours too for you dare not pray for the release of incurable sinnes as the Church then did looke bet-vpon Epiphanius concerning Prayer for the dead and concerning the feast of Easter and the equalitie of Ministers he was a flat Puritane For he held that there was no difference betwéen a Priest and a Bishop he vsed the b
remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
mortuorum de vnigeniti in carne aduentu de sancto testamento veteri ac nouo in summa de alijs constitutionibus perfectae salutis I will write vnto you concerning the faith seeing you and our brethren require of vs the things which concerne your saluation out of the holy scripture a firme foundation of faith concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Spirite and all the rest of the matter of our saluation in Christ to wit of the resurrection of the dead of the comming of the onely begotten in the flesh of the holy Testament both old and new and in briefe of other constitutions pertaining to the perfection of saluation Now we may consider with lesse danger of the place here alleaged wherein that Epiphanius be not misunderstood we must consider that these words Omnia a diuina scriptura accipi non possunt Wee ought to vse traditions because all things cannot be learned out of the holy Scripture must be restrained to the matter in hand for Epiphanius meaneth that the bare letter of this or that scripture doth not afford sufficient helpes to vnderstand it selfe but requireth other meanes for that purpose for thus stand the words Diuina verba speculatione indigent sensu ad cognoscendam vniuscuiusque propositi argumenti vim ac facultatem oportet traditione vti non enim omnia à diuina scriptura accipi possunt c. The words of God haue need of speculation and sense to know the force and power of euerie argument propounded we must also vse tradition because al things cannot be learned out of the holy Scriptures Now by these means he expoundeth a place of Paul to the Corinthians 1. Cor. 7.28 If a Virgine marrie she sinneth not this place saith he is meant of such as had a long time continued Virgines because none in that paucitie of Christians did offer to marrie them and therefore Paul permitteth they should marrie with Iewes and Infidels you haue heard his speculation yea but why may not this place of Paul be meant simply of all Virgines mariageable without exception Epiphanius answereth Tradiderunt sancti Dei Apostoli peccatum esse post decretam virginitatem ad nuptias conuerti The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie You haue heard his Tradition but like speculation like Tradition For it is incredible that the Christians of Corinth had not as many sonnes and daughters as many males as females more incredible that there was such a paucitie of Christians in so populous a Church as the Church of Corinth 2. Cor. 6.14 and most incredible of all that Paul should permit that in his first Epistle which he forbad in his second and so his Speculation faileth him Moreouer it is a fond conceit to think that there were Votaries in Pauls time or that Paul in the seuenth of the first to the Corinths spake not generally of all Virgines but of such as could not get Christian husbands Propter penuriam charitatis so his Tradition is come to nothing No no if there had beene such Nuns at Corinth the Apostle being requested to set downe his iudgment for the direction of Virgins could not possibly forget that principall kinde of Virgines that had most need of direction speak only of some other meaner regard and that in such generall termes without any exception or mention of votall Virgines More ouer Epiphanius fortifieth his tradition out of Paul who saith Iuniores viduas reijce postquā enim lasciuierunt contra Christum nubere volunt habentes iudicuum quod primam fidem reiecerunt The younger widowes refuse for when they haue begun to waxe wanton against Christ they will marrie hauing damnation because they haue reiected the first faith Concluding therof that Virgins are much more to bee blamed than Widowes if they turne back from their purpose of continencie wherfore it is not an vnwritten veritie that Epiphanius obtrudeth vpon vs but a conclusion drawne out of the first to Timothie Cap. 5.11 c. howbeit S. Paul reiecting yong widows frō vowing or promising cōtinencie doth by the same reason reiect yong virgins which be in as great danger of breaking their faith and promise as young widowes and so still we finde that no such votaries were allowed to snare themselues with vowes and religious promises in Pauls time but left free to vse the remedie of marriage according to the ordinance of God But to make short worke whether Epiphanius here speake of written or vnwritten verities yet hee concludeth in the end that it is better euen for Votaries openly to marrie according to the law than to be wounded dayly by the secret darts of concupiscence then which nothing can be more contrarie to the practise and principles of Poperie Touching the confutation of Aerius it stands vpon a tradition of fasting vpon Wednesdaies and Fridayes till night and feeding vpon breed water and salt sixe dayes before Easter which is quite dead long agoe Moreouer Epiphanius opposeth his traditions to matter of faith saying Ecclesia acceptam à patribus veram fidem vsque huc continet itemque traditiones The Church doth still retaine the true faith receceiued from the Fathers and also their Traditions And therefore if Aerius had offended against nothing but Traditions hee had beene sound in the Faith notwithstanding and so no hereticke As for the Booke of the Apostles Constitutions either Epiphanius lost it out of his bosome or it is that which is extant vnder the name of Clemens and condemned longe agoe in the sixt generall Councell at Constantinople Can. 2. yet are these Constitutions allowed for good scripture in the last Canon of the Apostles Lib. 2. cap. 59 Lib. 6. cap. 14 Lib. 2. cap. 63 Lib. 5. cap. 16 which the verie Papists themselues are ashamed of And good reason for they say in one place that Iames the brother of our Lord was not an Apostle and in another place that hee was not an Apostle they say also that the people ought to come together euerie day morning and euening which is no where obserued they say that Iudas was absent when Christ celebrated his last supper which is contrary to the scripture to bee short these Constitutions are so full of errours and falshoods that no honest Christian will father them vppon the Apostles or allowe them for canonicall Scripture The place of Austine which your Papist as a blind man casts his staffe at is in the seuenth Chapter of the second Booke De baptismo contra Donatistas and the wordes bee these Multa non inueniuntur in literis Apostolorū neque in Cōciliis postererū tamē quia custodiuntur per vniuersam ecclesiam non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur Many things are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the Councels of later time yet because they are kept by the whole Church they are
supposed to be deliuered and commended to vs by none but them These words though they seeme plaine haue some doubt which somewhat quaileth the force of them for it is not so easie to know whether ab ipsis should be referred to Apostolorum or posterorum howbeit I say further that the Traditions that Augustine speaks of are of the same nature with that one Tradition which he treats of in those Bookes against the Donatists namely the not rebaptizing of Heretickes which though it bee not expresly and explicately set downe in the writings of the Apostles yet Austine himselfe knew it might be soundly deduced out of the Scriptures and so hee testifieth almost in euerie Booke of that worke against the Donatists Haeres 75. The other place which he alleageth out of Austine sspeaks of a Tradition indeed but it was a Tradition of the Fathers not of the Apostles and euen so saith Epiphanius of the very same tradition Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta the Church doth this by a tradition receiued from the Fathers In Philip. homil 3. And therefore Chrysostome went too farre when he sayth Ab Apostolis sancitum est it is decreed by the Apostles but though there be places of good shew in Chrysostome yet your Papist could say no more but that hee citeth a place out of the Canons of the Apostles and yet quoteth neither Booke Chapter leafe nor Homily where a man may finde it in Chrysostomes workes howbeit if hee meane the Apostles Constitutions he hath his answeare if those Canons that be set downe in the first booke of Councels I say they neuer sawe any of the Apostles but were begotten in later times as it is most cleere in the Canons themselues Can. 8. Si quis Episcopus aut presbyter aut Diaconus sanctum paschae diemante vernale aequinoctium ex Iudaeis celebrauerit abijciatur If any either Bishop or Priest or Deacon shall according to the manner of the Iewes celebrate the feast of Easter before the vernall equinoctiall let him be deposed If this had been inacted by the Apostles it may bee wondred how there could be such adoe about the feast of Easter betweene the East and West Churches the whole matter being so cleerely decided aforehand by the Apostles themselues Againe when we read in another Canon Can. 30. that such Bishops as came by their Bishoprickes by secular Princes should be deposed it is easily seene that some of these Canons were not shot off till the time of Christian Magistrates for Infidels I trow vsed not to giue Bishopricks neither was there euer any so farre beside himselfe as to seeke a Bishopricke by their meanes if this will not content your Papist then let him shew me some reason why these Canons are not set downe as a part of the new Testament but marked by Pope Gelasius for apochryphall Apud Gratian distinct 15. C. Rom. Ecclesia and then I will consider whether it bee needfull to giue him another answere Thus haue I runne ouer the choisest testimonies that hee could finde in all the ancient Fathers and Doctors for if hee could alleage all as it were with one mouth to speake for his blinde Traditions as here he bragges it is to be thought that either he hath chosē the best or els that he hath no iudgment as for Saint Iohns Gospell beside the Maiestie of the stile let him read Epiphanius against the Alogians and there hee shall finde some better proofes for the confirmation and defence of it than the testimonie and consent of antiquitie Nowe touching his Dilemma which hee takes to be so intricate a verie childe may easily dissolue it for wee doe not hold that any thing can make a damned hereticke but the stiffe and peruerse holding and auouching of such doctrine as is contrarie or inconsonant to the holy Scriptures whereof the Fathers are not guiltie neither will any Papist at this day stand in defence of such Traditions as agree not with the word written The Dialogue Sectio IIII. PRo Your learning I confesse is farre beyond mine yet if you will giue mee leaue to presse you with your own argument I doubt not but I shall compell you to make such an answere as may serue vs both Pap. Take your course Pro. You shall finde in Epiphanius Haeres 73. that the Apostles did ordaine that the Wednesdaies should bee fasted through the whole yeere except in the feast of Pentecost and that sixe dayes before Easter no sustenance should be receiued but salt bread and water Now if you doe thinke that these Traditions were left by the Apostles why doe you not obserue them and why doe you seeke to lay a burden vpon vs which you do refuse to beare your selfe Pap. You must vnderstand that from the first planting of the Church many thinges taught and deliuered by the Apostles haue béen altered and taken away partly by the Apostles themselues and partly a Then were their Successors ouer-sawcie vnlesse they had warrant in the Scripture so to doe by their Successors as the alteration of times and euents haue giuen occasion to alter or take them away for the good of the Church as the communitie of all things practised and allowed by the Apostles the office of b They were men as well as widow womē Rom. 12.8 Widdowes instituted by the Apostles the prohibition of eating of blood decréed by the Apostles the antiquitie did fast vppon the Euens of solemne Festiuall dayes and watch in the nights as the name Vigilia yet remaining doth testifie but when an abuse was perceiued to growe therby the watching was taken away the fasting being continued practised in the Church at this day August ad frat in Eremo Serm. 25. We might giue like instances of the Sundaies in Lent which were not fasted in ancient times with the Wednesdayes fast by you alleaged out of Epiphanius and many such like too long to repeat Out of which we gather with the Bée that the Apostles did ordaine many things in the Church which it is lawfull for themseleus c How prooue you their Successors might doe it and their Successors to alter or take away when time and occasion should require it for the good of the Church but if wée shall gather hereof that because the Church vpon graue deliberation hath taken away some d VVhat bee those things things deliuered by the Apostles that therefore Iohn Caluin or any other priuate man may at his pleasure reiect other some we shal sucke poyson with the Spider if I should argue with you that because you doe reiect the Wednesdayes fast which was e VVe heare you say so a Tradition of the Apostles that therefore wee may reiect the obseruation of the Sunday it would séeme but a weake argument although you could be content to confesse that the obseruation of Sunday is grounded onely vppon the Tradition of the Church which to doe were lesse shame
Then were they good arguments verie same arguments for the maintenance of his Heresie that the Protestants Puritanes of this time do for confutation whereof this ancient Father vseth none other c His confutation is so much the worse argument but the Tradition and continuall practise of the Church I am sure although you doe d VVho told you so exclude out of your Church Epiphanius and all other ancient Fathers yet Aerius shall be receiued and entertained as an ancient and principall pillar thereof but be ye well aduised before you put him into your Kalender for he was also an e That 's not so soone prooued for Austine followed Epiphanius the first and onely author of it Arian hereticke as Saint Augustine recordeth but whatsoeuer he holdeth else it sufficeth if he iumpe with you in any thing against the Catholicke The Answere HEere comes in Epiphanius and the hereticke Aerius once againe to walke a turne or two vpon the stage howbeit it may well be doubted by what authoritie Aerius was dubbed an hereticke I am sure Mich. Medina a stout Papist saith De Sacr. homi orig conti lib. 1. cap. 5. that Ierom Ambrose Austine Sedutius Primasius Chrysostome Theodoret Aecumenius and Theophilact were of his opinion in the equalitie of ministers Againe Aerius was enemy to Eustathius an Arian and therfore if he had any desire to remooue him out of his Bishopricke Haeres 75. and to sit himselfe in his roome as Epiphanius reporteth there is no likelihood that hee would be an Arian himselfe but keepe himselfe cleere to accuse and condemne Eustathius of so capitall an heresie Againe the opinion of fasting vpon Sunday and condemning ordinary and set fasting dayes Lib. 2. cap. 33. is attributed to Eustathius in Socrates storie where wee read also that hee was twise condemned once in the councell of Caesarea Cappadociae by his owne father Eueanius and againe the second time in the Councell of Gangra in Paph agonia wherefore I perswade my selfe that Epiphanius mistooke iust reprehension for emulation and charged Aerius with the faults of Eustathius a double condemned hereticke and as very a Papist as euer Aerius was a Puritane Nuptias fieri prohibuit à cibis abstinendum docuit nonnullos qui nuptias contraxerant à connubio segregauit seruos simulatione pietatis dominis abstraxit benedictionem communionem presbyteri habentis vxorem tanquam scelus declinandum praecepit c. He forbad marriage taught to abstaine from meates some that had bene married he separated he drew seruants from their masters vnder colour of pietie he commanded to shunne that blessing and communion of an Elder that had a wife of an hainous wickednesse Call you not this papistrie call it what you will I am sure it is so and it is heresie too Concil Gangr by your leaue if a nathemasit pronounced by a lawfull Councell be sufficient to make an heresie shew me the like euidence against Aerius and I will confesse him to be an hereticke otherwise I must craue leaue to say of Epiphanius as Austine doth of Philastrius In praesat libri de haeres ad quod Multas assertiones inter haereses numerauit quae haereses non sunt Many assertions he counted for heresies which were not heresies Nay I will be bold to say further Multas assertiones haereses non numerauit quae haereses sunt Many assertions he counted not heresies which are heresies For he hath wittingly concealed the assertions of Eustathius 1. Tim. 4.1.3 which Paul cals doctrines of deuils Now to the Tradition which Epiphanius bringeth for praier for the dead I say in a word it is accepta à patribus i Receiued frō the Fathers not from the Apostles not ab Apostolis and therefore it hath no further credit then man can giue it yet notwithstanding prayer was then made not after the Popish fashion to ease the dead of the paines and torments of purgatorie but to perswade the liuing that they are not vanished into nothing but liue and haue their being with the Lord which knockes out the braines of purgatorie for if men ought to beleeue that the dead for whom prayer is made doe viuere apud dominum Epiph. ibidem haeres 75. then may we not thinke that they doe viuere apud inferos in purgatorie but Epiphanius helps you with better store of reasons you heard the first namely quod credant mortuos esse viuere apud dominum That they beleeue that the dead are aliue with the Lord. The second Quod spes sit orantibus profratribus velut qui in peregrinatione sint That there is hope to them which pray for their brethren as to them which want in trauailing The third Quo id quod perfectius est significetur To the end that which is more perfect may be signified The fourth Vt Dominum Iesum Christum ab hominum ordine separent that they may separate the Lord Iesus from the order and state of bare men The fifth Vt adorationem domino praestent That they may yeeld adoration to the Lord. The sixt and last he sets downe in the words wee haue in hand Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta The Church doth this by tradition receiued from the fathers Howbeit the fathers tradition was no more but memoriam facite keepe a memory Lib. 1. epist 9. et lib. 3. epist 3. As we may see euidently in Cyprian whereunto was added by further curiositie Misericordiam Dei implorate Begge mercy of God And at length Masses and Indulgences and oblations and satisfactions and a whole flood of pickepurse inuentiōs yea but may it be said memoriam facite is little worth without misericordiam implorate yes by your leaue for so the Church thought good to animate and incourage the liuing to stand constant in persecution and not to reuolt for feare from Christian profession and touching the crauing of mercy for sinners departed which the Church vsed to doe most were in Epiphanius time you heard before all the reasons that Epiphanius could yeeld and if you looke for more or better you must search else where for Epiphanius cannot helpe you but hurt you for when he saith preces prosunt etsi totam culpam non abscindant prayers profit though they cut not off the whole fault He marres the fashion of purgatory where sinnes are not forgiuen but punished to be short if you peruse the words of Aerius you shall soone find that he neuer heard of purgatorian doctrine for when he obiecteth that if prayer profite the dead men need not liue godly or doe any good thing in their life time but purchase friends to pray that their incurable sinnes may bee layd to their charge it is most cleere hee knew not that prayer is not auaileable where there is no former merite and that veniall not mortall or incurable sinnes are purged by the suffrages of the liuing The
labours This place is cleere yet Bellarmine hath scraped together two answeres one out of Anselmus who saith that Saint Iohn speakes of the time that followeth the last iudgement which is absurd for then he would haue sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from thence-forth not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from hence-forth his other answere out of Haimo and Richardus De S. Victore restraines the comfort of this heauenly voice to Martyrs and perfect men which is a male part impounding of the grace of God common to all that keepe the commaundements of God and liue and die in the faith of Iesus it will trouble Bellarmine and Victor let father Haimo help them to perswade wise men that Meri in Domino to die in the Lord is more proper to perfect men than Nubere in Domino 1. Cor. 7.39 to marry in the Lord to perfect women howbeit these two answeres play at hard-head and beat out one anothers braines Anselmus cannot abide we should allow the one and Haimo and Victor wil be starke angrie with vs if wee allowe the other and therefore to please both sides it will be our best way to allowe neither But to proceede Chrysostome makes another petition for the dead that they may finde the Iudge fauourable wherin we must consider two things the sentence of the Iudge and the Execution The sentence is either particular presently after death Eccles 11.26 or generall at the last day in the clouds of heauen touching the former Chrysostomes petition for fauour comes too late and touching the other it must needs bee either venite benedicti patris mei come ye blessed of my father or else ite maledicti in ignem aeternum Math. 25.34.41 goe ye cursed into hell fire no praying or sacrificing can either reuoke or alter this sentence Ego Iehoua non mutor I am the Lord Malac. 3.6 Genes 18.25 and change not and as the Lord is immutable so his sentence both first and last is iust Shall not the Iudge of the world doe right saith Abraham as if he should say it is impossible it should be otherwise wherefore if any fauour bee to be found it must be in the execution Psal 103.20 Now the Executioners being either Angels or Diuels Angels must doe the will of God as it is enioyned them at the Diuels hands no fauour can bee looked for nowe what 's next verily it is hard to tell vnlesse we call vpon God to rectifie that which is right to mend that which is not amisse to vndoe that which is done well and to mitigate that punishment which is no sharper than it ought to be it may well stand with the folly of mans affections to make such prayers but it will hardly stand with the wisedome and iustice of God to giue them the hearing Suffragia aut ad hoc prosunt vt plena sit remissio Enchirid. cap. 110. aut tolerabilior damnatio saith Austine Suffrages are profitable to make either remission of sinnes more perfect or damnation more tollerable but how remission or mitigation of an absolute and a iust sentence damnatorie Ad supplicium tantum tale To punishment so great and of such qualitie being vnder execution can possibly stand with Ego Iehoua non mutor in Malachy it passeth the reach of all the wit learning I haue to determine Wherfore well might Chrysostome say Nouerunt the Apostles knew what profite redounded to the dead by commemoration in the dreadfull mysteries for hee himselfe knew not how the prayers of Priest and people could profite the dead much lesse how annuall commemorations could doe it And here let it bee considered how vntowardly Chrysostome disputeth the Apostles knew that commemoration of the dead at the altar was profitable vnto them Ergo the Apostles ordained it should be so I will not stand vpon the sequele let that goe for good but how knewe Chrysostome what the Apostles knew who reuealed their counsell vnto him if any bodie told him what reason had he to beleeue it if no bodie told him what reason had he to say it and therefore he that loues Chrysostome best must needs confesse that his antecedent is more doubtfull than his conclusion but when hee reasoneth further that the people and Priest stretching out their handes to heauen must needs appease Gods wrath Ergo commemoration of the dead is profitable hee is much ouer-seene for commemoration of the dead and praying fot the dead are not the same as the Papists themselues knowe and confesse De purg lib. 1. cap. 5. Epiphanius nusquam dicit orari pro sanctis sed memoriam fieri saith Bellarmine Epiphanius neuer saith we pray for the dead but hold a memorie of them And therefore herein Chrysostome is forsaken of all his friends both Papists and Protestants howbeit the growing of this vnluckie twigge from profiting the quicke to profiting the dead from commemorating at the altar to praying offering and sacrificing at the altar from thankesgiuing to intreating c. is here made knowne vnto vs so as now it is become a tree of so great spread that a number of vncleane birdes build their nests in the braunches of it The Dialogue Sectio X. TErtullian a This ancien father was a Montanist and a Chiliaste as it appeareth by this place This ancient father reasoning with a woman whose husband was dead concerning the bond that did still remaine betwéene her and her dead husband concludeth thus Let her pray for his soule let her intreat that he may be refreshed b VVhat bond see Rom. 7.2 He puts out and in and misordereth Tertullians words in the meane time and that at the resurrection she may haue the fruition of his company these things if she do not it may be truely said of her that she hath forsaken him infinite are the places which might be alledged to this purpose but this may suffice to prooue that this was the beléefe and practise of the c Ierome saith that Tertullian was not homo ecclesiae a man of the church Church in Tertullians time who liued néere vnto the Apostles that in Epiphanius Ambrose Austine Chrysostomes d All these were of one time and onely Chrysostome fathereth this Tradition vpon the Apostles it was holden for a Tradition left by the Apostles and generally beléeued and practised through e That which he called the Latine church is here called Vniuersall c. Vide Sect. 7. the vniuersall Church and that it hath euer since bin so beléeued and practised through the world vntill the bore affirmation of Luther that there was no such Tradition left by the Apostles preuailed more with you than the authoritie of all these ancient fathers and the long continued practise of the vniuersall Church to the contrary The Answere YOur Papist heere alleadgeth Tertullian and for very shame concealeth the place where this testimonie is to be found if he had but named Tertullians booke
world of any thing whether it be prayer sacrifice Almes or whatsoeuer else that is done vnder the sunne which cleerely confoundeth Iohn a Stile and all other Iackes that plead for him Lastly the doctors may aduise and giue counsell and plead at the barre but if they presume to sit vpon the bench as iudges 1. Pet. 5.3 2. cor 24. and Lords ouer Gods heritage or hauing dominion ouer their faith then are they traitors against the Conquerour The Dialogue Sectio XV. Transubstantiation NOw followeth Transubstantiation wherein because I haue a You take much vpon you but you performe little taken vpon me to alleage no proofe which may by any glosse or interpretatiō be wrested into another sense there is greater difficultie for what can be deuised to be spoken thereof so perspicuously which by some such shift may not be auoided if the fathers say that the body of Christ after words of consecration is really present that is a figuratiue spéech if they make mention of the vnbloody sacrifice or of the sacrifice of the Altar that is b who makes such an interpretation interpreted the sacrifice of thankesgiuing they could not vse the word Transubstantiation because it was not c The fathers had not the wit to deuise such a trimme word deuised before the Councell of Laterane let vs admit that d One will hardly serue for the vniuersall Church one of the ancient fathers were risen from the dead for to vnfold what his beliefe was and what the vniuersal Church did hold in his time concerning Transubstantiation what should we e Transubstantiation must stand by deuises or els it wil soone fall deuise to demaund of him or what might he deuise to say vnto vs for final determination therof if we should aske whether the very body of Christ be present in the sacrament in forme of bread and he should answere f No father answereth so yea this would not serue but if we should replie thus How can it bée the bodie of Christ Shall I not beléeue mine owne eies which tell me that it is bread if this doctor should g Theodoret Chrysostome Austine Tertul and Ambrose himselfe answere so answere that the bread is called the bodie of Christ in a figuratiue sense that in Sacraments the signe is many times called by the name of the thing signified were not this controuersie cléerely determined on the protestants side Contrariwise If this doctor should answere that God is omnipotent and therefore able to doe what hée will seeme it neuer so contrary to our senses and vnderstanding that he was able to make heauen and earth of nothing and to doe all the great wonders and miracles of the land of Egypt were h No verilie were it not see the answere not the matter as cléerely determined on the Papists side what cauill could you in this case imagine or deuise eftsoones to cal in question what this doctors opinion should be concerning i Transubstantiation wil not come without a better pull transubstantiation will you imagine that he hath spokē al this of Gods omnipotency to proue that he is able to make you k As though there were nothing held by vs but calling naming signifying and figuring cal the signe of the Sacrament by the name of the thing signified or to make bread to be a figure of Christs naturall bodie Pro. When such a doctor shal arise from the dead and so determine of the matter as you haue imagined I will make you answere in the meane time you must giue me leaue with reuerence to thinke that none of the auncient fathers weare so grosse and absurd as to be of your opinion in this point but to admit that such a castle were built in the aire as you haue imagined I must then l Then do you confesse more thē other Protestants will confesse that such a supposed doctor did hold Transubstantiation Pap. This very question was thus asked vrged answered and determined for the Papists by Saint Ambrose when he was liuing and m Non sequitur therefore you must néeds graunt that he did hold Transubstantiation read his booke De ijs quae initiantur mysterijs the Chapter beginneth thus Quomodo tu dicis mihi hoc est corpus Christi aliud video panem video c. How sayest thou that this is the bodie of Christ I doe sée it to be another thing I doe sée that it is bread for answere hereof Saint Ambrose doth alleage that God was able to make heauen and earth of nothing and for the proofe of Gods omnipotent power he repeateth all the wonders and miracles of the land of Egypt as in that Chapter at large appeareth this was n But no doubt it was not but if it were his faith then was it not his opinion no doubt Saint Ambrose his faith in this point and the beliefe and practise of the vniuersall Church in his time for it is not like that so great a doctor did dissent frō the Catholike Church in so materiall a point neither is it o No for they were both Protestants probable that S. Ambrose was a Papist in this opinion S. Austine whom he conuerted to the Christian faith a Protestant The Answere IF your Papist were acquainted with such another as the witch of Endor 1. Sam. 28.7 it seemes he would cause one ancient father or other to be raised vp from the dead to auouch Transubstantiatiō his companions depend vpon the apparitions of soules the speeches of dead corpes dead skuls such like strong illusions as the heathen did vpon their oracles otherwise it would not be so open cleare a matter that Poperie is a doctrine of deuils he hath taken vpon him to alleage such proofe as cannot be wrested by any glosse or interpretation into another sense and therefore being intangled with such a difficultie he thinkes himselfe hardly able to mainetaine his credite without helpe from the dead yet me thinkes a wise man should not measure other mens wits by his owne nor imagine all glosses and interpretations to be in his owne head neuerthelesse I see heere that hee can make glosses of words that were neuer either spoken or written if the fathers say that the bodie of Christ is really present that is a figuratiue speech a figuratiue speech quoth he that must needs be a strange figuratiue speech that was neuer spoken and they be strange fathers that driue vs to shift them of by figures when they say nothing Againe if the fathers mention the vnbloody sacrifice or the sacrifice of the Altar that is interpreted the sacrifice of thankesgiuing heere is a glosse more then needs for if the fathers should so say they hurt not our cause and therefore no reason we should seeke for glosses or interpretations to shift them of Euseb de demonstr euang lib. 1. cap. 10 Sacrificium Altaris Sacrifice of the Altar doth
not think his knot is yet loosed there is nothing saith hee in the Sacrament that is incomprehensible but Epiphanius saith not so though he say it neither can it bee inferred out of quot sunt similia sunt for the Image of God was comprehensible in Adam though it be defaced in vs and things may be Similia secundum magis minus but not to multiply quarrels let vs graunt that he saith to bee true what then Marrie then I would learne saith hee if it bee not Christs true bodie really present but a figure therof what wonder or incomprehensible matrer is there here is a little prety It three times repeated in the knitting of this knot It is his bodie It is not like to a naturall bodie and if it be not Christs bodie c. I beseech you what meanes this man by his It is It something or is It nothing or what is It Epiphanius saith It is of a round forme therefore It is not accidens for rotundum is not accidens but rotunditas if It be a substance then It must bee either the bodie of Christ and so the bodie of Christ is of a round forme or else it must bee bread and so indeed all the three Euangelists are bold to call It Math. 26 26. Mark 14 22. Luk. 22 19. 1. Cor. 10 16.17 1. Cor. 11 23 26 27 28. and so is the Apostle Paul twise in one Chapter and foure times in another and hee himselfe for all this mincing of the mattter comes downe in the end out of the clouds and confesseth the Sacrament to be of a round forme whereof it followeth that it is neither an accident nor the reall substance of Christs bodie but bread as the Scripture cals it Now for the vnloosing of his knot I say that it is incomprehensible howe a round peece of bread should bee such a figure as is worthy to bee called the bodie of Christ and so to exhibite and conuey the graces and merites of Christs passion into vs that our sinnes are remitted our faith encreased and wee incorporate and made members of his bodie of his flesh and of his bones Let him shew me that this is not farre beyond the comprehension of mans reason and I will giue him his asking But for a full cleering of Epiphanius it is to bee remembred that Manes and his disciples liuing vpon the sweat of other mens browes and supposing all things to haue life soule as man had were wont to consecrate the bread and wine that was giuen them to fill their slowe bellies withall after this sort Ego non seminauite non messui te non molui in clibanum non misi alius obtulit comedi innoxius sum c. I sowed thee not I reape thee not I ground thee not I baked thee not another offered it and I did eate I am innocent c. Wherunto Epiphanius answereth ipsi non recidunt botrū sed edunt botrū Haeres 66. circa medium vtrum grauius est etenim vindemians semel recidit botrū qui vero comedit per dētes sectores ac manducatores singula grana edomat per hoc magis multipliciter torquet ac secat non amplius similis erit ei qui semel secuit is qui manducauit consumpsit They cut not the bunch of grapes but they eat it which is greater the Grape-gatherer did once cut the vine but he that eateth it doth cut and grinde with his teeth all the graces and in the respect he doth torment it much more and hee that hath eaten and consumed it is no longer like to him that onely once cut it You heare what Epiphanius saith for confutation of the Manichies Now cōsider how that he saith can possibly be good if the liuing sensitiue bodie of Christ blood and all be eaten of the Catholickes might not the Manichies then reply that they were more to be borne withall that were compelled by hunger and thirst to eat and drinke liuing things of meane regard crying for griefe Ego non seminaui te non messui non molui c Than Epiphanius and his Catholickes that presumed to eat the liuing flesh of Christ and to drinke his blood verily Epiphanius being learned wise would not haue left his reason in this case wide open without either fence or shelter against the aduersarie if the reall presence and manducation of the bodie and blood of Christ had been catholickely beleeued in his time Peter in the Acts when a voice from heauen commanded him to kil and eat though he were hungry and in a traunce yet he forgat not the law of God but answered God forbid Lord for nothing polluted or vncleane hath euer entred into my mouth and shall wee thinke that the same Peter when our Sauiour saith take Act. 10 10. c. Et cap. 11 5 c. eat this is my bodie and take drinke this is my blood would neuer make any question neither he nor any of his fellow Apostles against the eating of mans flesh and drinking mans blood if they had vnderstood the wordes of Christ after the popish fashion Euen so hee that thinketh that Epiphanius holding the reall eating and drinking of the bodie and blood of Christ would dispute so loosely as he doth against the Manichies must needs thinke withall that his wits were in a deeper traunce than Saint Peters and so fitter to gather wooll than to confute heretickes The Dialogue Sectio XVII I Will leaue this knot for you to vnloose at better leasure and assay you with another argument to prooue the a This will you neuer prooue while you liue nor your child after you consent of all ancient Fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church in this doctrine of transubstantiation but first I will set downe certaine places out of the Fathers whereon to ground mine argument although I haue alreadie vsed the same places for the proofe of prayer for the dead This Custome saith b These places are answered all of them Saint Austine the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by tradition from the Elders that whereas at the time of the Sacrifices commemoration is made of all soules departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them De verb. Apost Sermone 32. You shall also finde that there was a Sacrifice offered for the quicke and dead in Saint Ambrose his first prayer Praeparans ad missam and in Tertullians Booke de Monogamia about the middest of the Booke the place beginneth dic mihi soror in pace c. Hereby it is manifest that c How many ages were they I pray you in all these ages the Church did d That is to say Signum repraesentationem sacrificij Aug. de ciuit dei lib. 10. cap. 15 offer a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead which being agréed vpon
betwéen vs I desire to know of you whether that sacrifice which was offered was the sacrifice of the Masse which implyeth transubstantiation the sacrifice of the Protestats communion the sacrifice of prayer or the sacrifice of thankesgiuing for if it was none of the thrée last it must néedes bee the sacrifice of the Masse and so is transubstantiation prooued Pro. e And why not the Protestants communion It might bee either prayer or thankesgiuing for both are often times in the Scriptures called by the name of a Sacrifice Pap. Thus doe I prooue that it was neither and first that it was not prayer it is manifest by the place of S. Austine before cyted De verb. Apost Serm. 32. where he maketh mention of the prayers that the Church made for the dead and of the Sacrifice which it vsed to offer for them as of two distinct things for there he saith that at the time of the Sacrifice prayers were made for the dead that the sacrifice was also offered for them That it was not the Sacrifice of thankesgiuing it appeareth likewise by the same Doctor by the place by me aboue cited out of his Enchiridion where he sayth Neque negandum est defunctorum animas pietate suorum viuentium relouari cum pro eis sacrificiū redemptoris offertur c. Neither must we denie that the soules of the dead are releeued by the charitie of their liuing friends when as the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them the sacrifice therefore which the Church did offer was the sacrifice of our redéemer and it was offered that the dead might be releeued how can you call the sacrifice of thankesgiuing the sacrifice of our redéemer or how can you say that the church did offer the sacrifice of thankesgiuing that the soules of the dead might be reléeued for thankesgiuing is for benefits receiued and not for benefits to be receiued it remaineth therfore that this sacrifice of the church was f This is a worthy disputer that concludes for our communion as well as his owne Masse either the Protestants communion or else that it was the sacrifice of the Masse and consequently that the bodie of Christ is really in the Sacrament The Answere THe knot he talks of was so loosely tyed that it was no masterie to vndoe it but now we shall haue such an argument as shall prooue vnto vs the consent of all ancient Fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church for transubstantiatiō these be great words yet notwithstanding when he grounds this doughty argument vpon Austine Ambrose and Tertullian concluding thereof that in all these ages the church did offer a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead I can take them for no better than the words of a man beside himselfe he knew well inough that Ambrose and Austine were both of an age for he hath told vs once or twise that the one conuerted the other and if he knew not that the annuall offerings of a widow woman vpon the day of her husbands death enioyned her by Tertullian in these wordes Et offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius was not the sacrifice of the Masse I must needes thinke his head was out of temper if these three Fathers had written in three seuerall ages it had been the least number that the word all could bee spoken of Aristot de caelo lib. 1. cap. 1. for we call two both and not all and therefore by what wit or common sense he could say all these ages of one age or two at the most if Tertullian had not been mistaken I cannot possibly imagine but for answere to these Fathers Contr. Collyr haeres 79. Epiphanius saith truely Deo abaeterno nullatenus mulier sacrificauit A woman did neuer in any case offer any sacrifice to God And againe Nusquam mulier sacrificauit aut sacerdotio functa est A woman neuer sacrificed nor exercised the priestly office Dialog cum Tryphon Whereunto adde out of Iustine Martyr that God receiueth no sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but onely of his Priests whereof it followeth that the annuall oblation that Tertullian speakes of was no sacrifice vnlesse you will say Epiph. haeres 49. that Tertullian was a Priscillianist or Artotyrite that allowed of Romane Priests and women Bishops to offer bread and cheese in Sacrifice to the Lord. And touching Ambrose I shewed before that hee offered not the verie bodie of Christ which is receiued of merite not of mercie how irreuerently soeuer it be handled but celebrated the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ ioyned with prayer and thankesgiuing so nowe Austine is left alone of whome I may say as our Papist taught me a while agoe namely that it is not probable that Saint Ambrose was a Protestant in this opinion and Saint Austine whome hee conuerted to the Christian faith a Papist howbeit you shall bee further instructed out of Lumbard Lib. 4. dist 12 that the ancient Fathers doe not vse the word Sacrifice and immolation in proper sense these be his words Vocatur sacrificium oblatio quia memoria est representatio veri sacrificij sanctae oblationis factae in Ara crucis It is called a sacrifice and an offering because it is a remembrance and representation of the true sacrifice and holy offering made vpon the altar of the crosse And a little after Quotidié immolatur in sacramento Hierar cap. 3. quia in Sacramento recordatio fit illius quod factum est semel We sacrifice dayly in the Sacrament because in the Sacrament there is a remēbrance of that which was once done or of that Sacrifice which was once made Dyenis in his Hierarchy calleth it De demonst si 1. cap. 10. Ad Hebr. hom 17. De ciuit Dei lib. 20. cap. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a figuratiue sacrifice and Eusebius memoriam magni sacrificij a remembrance of the great sacrifice and Chrysostome recordationem sacrificij a remembrance of the sacrifice and Austine himselfe signum representationem sacrificij a signe of representation of the sacrifice wherefore we can agree with your papist no farther in this point than to confesse that the ancient fathers called the sacrifice of the body blood of Christ improperly a sacrifice because it is a memorial and representation of that one all sufficient vniterable euerlasting sacrifice which our Sauiour the last true Priest that euer liued or shall liue vpon the earth offered to God vpon the Altar of the crosse and so the ground whereupon this popish argument is builded is sandy and deceitfull Now let me shew you that prayers and supplications and prayse and thankesgiuing are the onely true sacrifices of the new testament and that the ancient Christians of the Primitiue Church neuer knew or hard of any other to this purpose therefore you must remember that God receiueth no sacrifice but at the hands of a Priest for so we learned a
the contrary Pa. It fareth with you in this businesse much like as with a man that hath lost his way who the more hée bestirreth himselfe the further hee is from the end of his iourney your heresie hath beene pursued and chased through all the doubles windinges which it can possibly imagine and is now retyred like a crafty foxe into the burrow where it was first littered bredde which is the iudgement and censure of humane reason whereunto as vnto a supreame iudge it doth now appeale from the authoritie of c Non potest per vllam Scripturam probari Roffensis contra captiuit Babiloni i. It cannot be proued by any scripture scriptures fathers and Councels and surely this is the very fountaine and seminary of all atheisme heresye for if I should labor to instruct an Infidell in the principall points of christian religion as the resurrection of the very same bodies after they bée consumed to dust ashes that the Father is God the Sonne God and the holy Ghost God and yet that they thrée are but one God without confounding of the persons that the Sonne is eternall and yet begotten of his father that d I maruell how this can he shewed to be a principall point of christian religion Christ came in vnto his disciples the e Are the Protestants hereticks for so interpreting what if he came in at the window or chimney or louer hole Non dicitur quod intrauit per ianuas clausas c vide Durand lib. 4. dist 44. q. 6. 1. It is not said that he entered by the doore being shut doores being shut not as the Protestants interpret the doores opening vnto him but after a miraculous and supernatural manner as S. Austine expoundeth it Tractatu 121. euangelij S. Iohannis all which is as contrary to the capacitie of humane reason as the reall presence in the sacrament if the Infidell in this case should appeale vnto the same iudges might he not with the same reason and by the iudgement of the same arbitrators as well reiect these and many like articles of our christian faith as you doe the reall presence if the imperfection of mans vnderstanding be such in the comprehension of the workes of nature that as f VVe must needs yeeld if such authors speake against vs. So is not Gods word 2. Tim. 3.16 Psa 119.105 Socrates saith Hoc solum scimus quod nihil scimus this one thing wee doe know that wee doe know nothing how great is the imperfection thereof in the comprehension of things supernatural being so farre remote from our senses and vnderstanding the wisedom of man as S. Paul saith is foolishnesse with God and therefore a farre incompetent iudge is it to determine of things appertaining to God from this fountaine sprang first the heresie of Arius who not being able to comprehend how the Sonne of God could be begotten when as there was no time of his begetting chose rather to rend himselfe from the vnitie of g That 's not the popish church Belike the catholicke church can vnderstand things that be aboue vnderstanding without the scriptures helpe the catholicke Church and to wrest the Scriptures to his owne capacitie than to submit his owne vnderstanding in things aboue vnderstanding vnto the censure of the Catholicke Church the sure rocke and pillar of trueth and whosoeuer he be that in matters of his faith consulteth with flesh and blood measuring the same by rule of humane reason must needs be an hereticke if not an atheist if you demaund how the body of Christ is in the Sacrament I answere I h No nor any man els liuing cannot tell because it is ineffable neither can I conceiue it because it is incomprehensible if you doe alleage impossibilitie I answere that i So answered Praxeas the hereticke vide Tertul. nothing is to God impossible if you require arguments of credibilitie you haue as many and as great as for any one article of our christian faith you haue the vniforme consent of the k I pray you where doth S. Iohn say hoc est corpus meum or what other plaine and direct words hath he or any of the greeke churches foure Euangelistes in direct and plaine wordes you haue the vniforme consent practise of the l Gréek churches continued and remaining at this day so that there is nothing wanting but the assistance of Gods holy spirite which you are to séeke and craue be continuall and hearty prayer The Answere OVr Protestant here is worse afraid than hurt the big lookes of his aduersary made him afraid but his withered armes could not hurt him hee telleth vs with full mouth and face enough that he will proue the sacrifice of the masse which implyeth transubstantiation by the consent of all ancient fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church but when all is come to all hee runnes away and leaues this withered conclusion behind him ergo the sacrifice of the Church was either the masse or the Protestants communion I trow such arguments as these may soone bee answered but now that our Protestant calleth forth sense and reason to witnesse against him and to demonstrate infallibly that his assertion is not to be beleeued he comes backe againe and intreats him to shut his eies and suffer himselfe to be hudwinked and then he will take paines to lead him into a popish ditch If we relie vpon the censure of our senses and reason saith he wee are in the hie way to all Atheisme and heresie Iohn 20.27 29. a strange thing that that which was a meane to faith in Christs time should now become a fountaine of heresie our Sauiour saith to Thomas because thou hast seene thou beleeuest and againe put thy finger here and see my hands and put forth thy hand put it into my side and be not faithlesse but beleeue and in another place he saith Luke 24.38 why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my hands and my feete for it is I my selfe handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me to haue Now I beseech you tell me if the consecrated bread had a mouth to speake as it hath an inuisible mouth if Papists may be beleeued and should say to vs why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my forme and colour handle taste and see for the body of Christ is not round white sweete heauie thicke grosse earthie as you taste feele and see me to be Shall wee answere that this is the fountaine of heresie and Atheisme No by your leaue answer so who will and who dare this shall be my warrant to settle my conscience and without further trouble of minde or doubt of heart to beleeue that it is very bread and not the body of Christ Moreouer the holy Apostle S. Iohn assureth vs of the certentie of his
doctrine by the infalliblenesse of the outward senses 1. Iohn 1.1 saying that which we haue heard which wee haue seene with these our eies which wee haue looked vpon these hands haue handled of that word of life that I say which we haue seene and heard declare we vnto you not that you may be Heretickes and Atheists but that you may haue felloship with vs and that our fellowship may be with the father and with his sonne Iesus Christ Now touching humane reason I would gladly know whether our Papist haue framed his arguments with it or without it if with it let him take heede he be not an Hereticke or an Atheist if without it I doubt he shall hardly mooue either Hereticke or Catholicke to be of his opinion much lesse conuert Infidels It were strange doctrine to teach men neuer to vse the helpe of humane reason because Saint Paul saith Rom. 1 19. the wisedome of this world if foolishnesse for though the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesu be farre beyond the reach of mans wisedome yet the same Paul saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you may be knowen concerning God is ingraffed in the heart of man whereby Gods eternall power and Godhead shining in his works is knowen vnto him and Peter Lumbard Lib. 3 dist 24. his owne Prophet saith Quaedā fide creduntur quae intelliguntur naturali ratione Something 's are beleeued by faith which are vnderstood by naturall reason But to make short worke Paul saith indeed that the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the spirit of God and God forbid we should denie it but yet the same Apostle presently after saith 1. Cor. 2.14 c. againe the spirituall man discerneth all things now let him shew vs that papists are spirituall men and Protestants naturall men and then we will vayle the bonnet of his insensible and vnreasonable assertions otherwise we may not become fooles and run mad at his pleasure Againe where he disputeth that an infidell may reiect the resurrection of the dead the mystery of the Trinitie the eternitie of the sonne of God the comming in of Christ in his naturall bodie to his disciples the doores being shut and such like Articles of our Christian faith as well as we may reiect the reall presence in the Sacrament you may see the pure simplicitie of this man who makes Christs entrance through a shut doore to be an Article of faith Howbeit his master of sentences findeth documents of the Trinitie in things created and Saint Austine saith Lib. 1. dist 3. De Trinitate lib. 6. cap. 20. Oportet vt creatorem per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspicientes Trinitatem intelligamus It behooueth vs that we beholding in vnderstanding the creator by the things which were created should vnderstand the Trinitie Againe Tertullian hath written a booke De resurrectione carnis and Athenagoras a Christian Philosopher hath written another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of the resurrection of the dead Tertullian Athenagoras wherein this article of faith is soundly prooued by humane reason and it being a sure ground that God cannot be without his power and wisedome and that the father is Fons origo Deitatis as sol is fons origo lucis The fountaine and originall of the Godhead as the sunne is the fountaine and originall of light It will not be so hard to conceiue by reason that the son of God may be begotten yet coeternal with God his father but I shal not need to labor further in this point there is a Treatise written purposely of this argument by Philip Morney a noble man of Fraunce Phil. Morney wherin you may see how far reason may wade in these such like articles of Christianity therfore if an infidel flie to humane reason he shal haue some stay to leane vpō in matters of faith wheras neither he nor we nor any man els liuing can find any possibility of reason or sense to induce vs to beleue the real presence Howbeit he may do well to teach vs from what an infidell should appeale to the arbiterment of humane reason is it like that any man will presse an infidell with Scriptures Fathers Councels so to driue him to appeale to reason Paul saith that prophecying serueth not for infidels but for them which beleeue 1. Cor. 14.22 where the Apostle meaneth such infidels as be altogether strangers from Christian doctrine and must be won by signes not by prophecying as for Fathers Councels we may not prefer them to Paul and Peter in the conuersion of an infidell and besides that infidels will make more account of their own Prophets Epimenides Menander and Aratus Tit. 1.12 Plato Hesiode and Homer such like than of our Fathers and Councels yet notwithstanding if we should confesse that other matters of faith cannot be measured by humane reason without danger of heresie yet if you cleaue to his faith not to your owne reason in the reall presence you cannot choose but be an hereticke Dial 2. in con The Symboles or signes of the Lords bodie after the priest hath inuocated are charged made other shings and this doth Theodoret euidētly declare in one of his Dialogues where the hereticke saith Symbola dominici corporis sanguinis post inuocationē sacerdotis mutantur et alia fiunt And this he speakes of a substantial change as our Papists do at this day but the Catholicke answereth Signa mysticapost sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma Thus hath Theodoret a learned and auncient father of the Greeke Church written almost 1200. yeeres agoe giuing cleerely to vnderstand that the doctrine of transubstantiation was not Catholicke in his time but hereticall what the Greeke Church thinketh of it at this day may better be learned by the last Session of the Councell of Florence than by the bold face of this Papist whose head is so full of vniforme consents and arguments of credibilitie Council Florent sess vltima that he forgets how many of the Euangelists speake of the Lords supper See then what ill lucke this poore man hath that both his vniforme consents faile him the one confuted by Theodoret and the Councell of Florence the other by Saint Iohns Gospel where you shall not finde one word spoken of the Sacrament all the foure Euangelists quoth he how I pray you in thought word or deed marry saith he in direct and plaine words Indeed the words of three Euangelists are direct and plaine against him but the fourth saith nothing Matthew Marke say that the Sacrament of Christs blood after consecration is the fruit of the vine Math. 26.29 Mar. 14.25 cap. 22 20. and Luke saith that the cup is the new Testament in his blood now if you vnderstand by the cup not wine but reall blood it will follow
being as the Angels of God is not there spoken of onely in regard of not marrying but also in regard of not dying Cap. 20.36 as Saint Luke expoundeth it looke the Bible ouer and ouer and you shall neuer read that Angels refused man or womans fellowship because they were married or accepted of it because they were vnmarried and single and therefore these vehement speeches of the ancient Fathers especially Chrysostome may not be racked to the vttermost but charitably and friendly construed to the best Chrysostome here in his vehemencie goeth beyond measure in reprehending the Christians of his time in their lightnesse went beyond measure in vowing yet the east-East-Church then neuer exacted any such promise or vow but left euerie Christian man and woman to their owne libertie Socrat. histor lib. 5. cap. 21. Illustres presbyteri in Oriente Episcopi etiam modo ipsi volluerint nulla lege coacti ab vxoribus abstinent nam non pauci ipsorum dum Episcopatum gerunt etiam liberos ex vxore legitima procreant Famous Ministers in the east yea and Bishops also are not compelled by any law to abstaine from wiues for many of them euen when they are Bishops doe beget children of a lawfull wife Well but what 's that charitable construction you speake of I pray you let vs heare it and so an end Content Chrysostome saith that such marriage is worse than adulterie and Austine saith as much yet Austine expoundeth himselfe presently in the same place De bono viduit cap. 9. saying Non quod ipsae nuptiae vel talium damnandae iudicentur daemnatur propositi fraus damnatur fracta voti fides c. Not that the verie marriages euen of such men as ought to be iudged damnable their deceitfull purpose is damnable the breach of their vow is damnable And againe Damnantur tales non quia coniugalem fidem posterius inierunt sed quia continentiae primam fidem irritam faecerunt Such are condemned not because they did afterward enter into the state of mariage but because they brake their former vowe of continencie You see heere howe Austine expoundeth himselfe and therefore if wee charitably expound Chrysostome after the same manner we haue as good warrant as Austine can giue vs neuerthelesse to speake yet more precisely wee may not take the breach of faith to be so great a sinne as the giuing of it vnaduisedly beyond our strength if a man should vow to fast bread and water all the dayes of his life and afterward feeling his strength to faile should fall to better fare for the recouerie of the same there is no reasonable man that will find fault with him for breaking that yoake of bondage at the last but for thrusting his necke vnto it at the first Si quis castitatem promiserit seruare non poterit In Leuit. lib. 3 pronunciet peccatum suum saith Cirill in one place If any man haue promised continencie and cannot keepe it let him confesse his sinne But he saith againe in another place In Leuit. lib. 16. Oportet commetiri doctrinam pro virium qualitate huiusmodi qui non possunt capere sermonem de castitate concedere nuptias We must measure the doctrine according to mens strength and graunt marriage to such as cannot receiue that doctrine of continencie The Dialogue Sectio XXII EPiphanius Quae enim ad sacerdotium tradita sunt propter eminentiam celebrationis sactorum ea ad omnes aequaliter ferri putauerunt c. Those traditions which were deliuered peculiarly for the Clergie by reason of their a None more supereminent than the Apostles who were married men so was Peter himselfe supreminencie in the celebration of the diuine mysterie these heretickes would haue all men tyed vnto when they did heare that a Bishop ought to be vnreprooueable the husband of one wife and continent and likewise of Deacons and Priests for in truth since the comming of Christ the Doctrine b VVhere is it forbidden in all the new testament of the Gospell doth not admit into these offices any that haue married a second wife by reason of the excellent dignitie of priesthood and this holy c But either Churches obserued it not as appeareth in Tertullian De Monog church doth sincerely obserue yet doth not the church admit any into those Offices that is the husband but of one wife whose wife is yet liuing with him in the fellowship of marriage but him onely d Here Epiphanius is fasly translated that Epiphanius might not seeme vnreasonable that either was neuer married or that after the death of his first wife liueth vnmarried the church receiueth into the office of a Deacon Priest Bishop or Subdeacon which is especially obserued where the Ecclesiasticall Canons e There is smal sinceritie in such Canons are sincerely kept but thou wilt say vnto me that in many places Priests and Deacons doe liue in wedlocke but this is not according to the sinceritie of the Canons c. Thus haue I f You must search better or you will neuer finde it searched and as I hope made sensible the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen to your owne cause by fashioning vnto your selues such an imaginarie and mathematicall Church as all the g They acknowledged no other ancient Fathers and Doctors of the Church did neuer know nor acknowledge whereupon it will follow if that out of the Church as out of the Arke there bée no saluation that all these reuerend Fathers and Doctors were heretickes and are damned Spirits or else that you be heretickes your selues The Answere EPiphanius comes in now to tell his tale and our Papist bearing good will to traditions englisheth quae tradita sunt which were deliuered those traditions which were deliuered and yet when all comes to all those traditions are found in Paul to Timothie and Titus and they are as cleere against the necessitie of single life in a Bishop as can be desired Paul saith a Bishop must be the husband of no more but one wife at once Cap. 3.2 Tit. 1.5.6 for that 's his meaning in the first to Timothie Now in the Epistle to Titus he willeth Titus to ordaine Elders in euerie Citie such as hee found irreprooueable the husbands of one wife c. euidently teaching vs that marriage was then no barre against being a Bishop or a Minister of the Gospell and so saith Chrysostome Ita pretiosa res est vt cum ipsa etiam possit quis ad sanctum Episcopatus solium subuehi In Tit. Serm. 2 It is so precious a thing that a man with it may be aduanced to the seat of a Bishop Againe hee translates qui abvna continuit which hath contained from one him onely that was neuer married adding the word onely to the text and peruerting the meaning of Epiphanius who thought it commendable for a man to renounce his wife ob
weakenesse shall sooth himselfe with an ouer-weening conceit of the excellencie of his Priest-hood and so neglect the remedie that God hath appointed how can that man promise to himselfe any assistance from God to keepe him from falling Thus much briefly of euerie point of Doctrine and euery testimonie thereto belonging whereof you may gather that this second wound is easily healed I hope the disagreement that was between Paul and Barnabas doth not prooue them to be of two Churches or either the one or the other to be a damned hereticke The ancient Fathers were men and might erre and did erre many of them together euen whole Councels as it is apparant to the world yet God forbid that therefore wee should count them Heretickes and throw them ouer-boord out of the Arke of Gods Church No friend Papist though wee discent from them in some points of doctrine as they likewise discented from such as were before them yet all of vs hold one foundation and it was no part of their beleefe that such as held not these points were out of the Church neither is it any part of our beleefe Ad Fortunatianum Epist 111. that such as held them were damned Heretickes Austine saith Catholicorum laudatorum hominum disputationes velut scripturas Canonicas habere non debemus vt nobis non liceat saluae honorificentiae quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere We ought not to haue the same in regard the discourses of Catholicke and laudable men as the canonicall scriptures that we may not sauing that honour which is due to those men disallow and refuse something in their writings And when Ierome had alleaged the authoritie of sixe or seuen Fathers against Austine Epist 19. in defence of Peters hypocrisie Austine is bold to answere him thus Solis eis scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Alios autem italego vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepalleant non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia per illos authores canonicos vel probobabili ratione quòd à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerūt I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour only to those bookes of the holy scriptures which are now called Canonicall to beleeue assuredly that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing But others I read so that of how great learning or holinesse soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a thing to be true because they thought so but because they were able to perswade it by those Canonicall authors or by some probable reason agreeing with the truth The Dialogue Sectio XXIII PRo The Doctors did erre grosly in many things as you must of force cōfesse therfore a feeble foundation are they to build our saluation vpon Austine wrote his Retractations in the doctrin of purgatorie which you labor so seriously to build vpon his authoritie he was so a These places are too hot for our Papist to handle doubtfull and wauering that sometime he writeth thereof doubtfully as fieri potest it may be that there is such a thing forsitan ita est peraduentute it is so sometime he seemeth to affirme it and sometime he flatly denieth it Irenaeus held that the soules of the righteous should remaine in a place appointed for them of God and not enter into heauen before the generall resurrection Tertullian wrote a booke of the vnlawfulnesse of second marriages Hilarie held that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his body Thus could I run ouer all the Fathers and find in them many such points of doctrine which you doe no lesse detest then we doe those things which you doe labour to build vpon their authoritie Now tell me why doe we exclude the Fathers out of our Church by refusing some of their opinions more than you doe exclude them out your Church by refusing of other some or why is it not as free for vs to reiect their authoritie in the one as it is for you to reiect it in the other or why may not I argue as you doe against vs that because these doctors did hold these opinions which I haue set downe that therefore the vniuersall Church in their time did imbrace the same or if that their said opinions had bene erroneous that some men or other would haue impugned thē by writing Pap. Your answere doth consist on diuers points b VVhere or whē here I am sure you do not all which I wil prosecute particularly and in order first therefore I must not denie that the doctors were men and that they were not without their blemishes and errors c VVe must d sappoint you of your hope Looke the answere hoping that you will also confesse that they were such men as for their great learning and piety haue euer bene admired and had in high reuerence of all posteritie and accepted for the principall workemen in the building of Gods spirituall Temple next vnto the Apostles of Christ To erre is incident to mans frailtie and to d As you papists doe persist in an errour is brutish but to e As you papists cannot abide to doe acknowledge and recant an errour is the worke of the holy Ghost and a great argument of an humble and weake spirit and therefore if you seeke to detract from Saint Austines doctrine by abraiding him with his Retractations you doe but séeke to quench the flaming fire with powring oyle vpon it but if you doe f VVe insinuate that euery thing is not Gospel that S. Austine writes infinuate by alleaging of his Retractations that he hath retracted any thing by me alleaged against you out of his workes the booke is extant let the iudge be brought foorth your next allegation whereby you seeke to extenuate Saint Austines authoritie is the instabilitie of his g His doctrine touching purgatorie but now simply as you insinuate doctrine for one while say you he affirmeth another he denieth another he doubteth it were an hard matter for you to perswade any man to credit you héerein that hath read how famous Saint Austine was for his great learning amongst the Gentiles before the conuersion and how after his conuersion hée hath bene euer held for the most learned doctor and subtile disputer that euer flourished in the Church for who so h Beleeue not vs but your owne eyes look and peruse the places beleeueth you herein must also beléeue therewithall that S. Austine had neither learning wit nor regard of his repuputation but let vs admit that such foule blots as you do pretend had dropped from his pen is it not like think you that in his i VVhat if he were not resolued when he wrote his Retractatiōs how then Retractations they should haue bin discouered and
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
be short the same Father when he saith In fide liberum suae potestatis arbitrium hommi seruauit Dominus God hath reserued to man in faith a will free and in his owne power What doth he else but place faith in the free will and power of man than which nothing can be more contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel Hilar. in psal 118. neither is the testimonie of Hilarie and Epiphanius of much better regard for when the one saith Est à nobis cum oramus exordium The beginning is from our selues when we pray IdeÌ„ in psal 2. Againe Vnicuique nostrum libertatem vitae sensumque permisit He hath graunted to euerie of vs libertie of life and sence And againe Voluntas nostra hoc proprium ex se habere debet vt velit Deus incipienti crementum dare This our will ought to haue proper of it selfe that when it beginneth God would giue increase And the other Epiph. heres 16. Possumus peccare non peccare It is in our power to sinne and not to sinne And againe Circa hominem est bona operari aut malas res appetere It it in mans power to doe good or to desire euill things I see no inckling of any grace but onely of the naturall force and power of mans will I will not charge these auncient fathers with all that may be gathered out of their writings but this I may say vnder benedicite that such sayings as these were the first grounds and foundations of the Pelagian heresie August contra Iulianum Pelag lib. 1. ca. 2. Pelagianis nondùm litigantibus securius loquebantur saith Austine the Fathres spake with lesse circumspection before they were combred with Pelagianisme The Dialogue Sectio XXI The doctrine of the keyes AS touching this point of doctrine the church of Rome doth teach none a But by your leaue you are deceiued other thing then that which our Sauiour Christ doth in the 16. of S Matthews Gospell in plaine and expresse wordes where hee saith vnto S. Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shal be loosed in heauen and in the 20. of S. Iohns Gospell where he saith to all his disciples Whosoeuers sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whosoeuers sinnes ye retayne they are retayned so that you see the literall sense is for vs and the question betweene vs is of the right interpretation and true meaning of the wordes you b VVe doe so for the keyes of discipline are giuen Matth. 18.18 do interpret the binding and loosing here mentioned to be the preaching of the word of God whereby sinnes are forgiuen and loosed to the penitent hearers and retained vnto the impenitent and vnbeleeuers and we doe say that by these wordes our Sauiour did giue authoritie and commission vnto his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be wherein wee doe attribute no more vnto the commissioners in the forgiuing of sinnes than wee doe vnto a seruant that giueth possession of his masters land by vertue of a letter of atturney who although he haue himselfe no interest in the land at all yet hath he full power to conuey his masters interest therein to c He knowes to whom so doth not your popish priest whosoeuer his pleasure is to haue the same conueyed it pleased God to make water an instrument in the forgiuing of sinnes in the Sacrament of Baptisme and in the d VVe know no such sacrament this must goe among other your forgeries sacrament of penance to make man an instrument vnto whom wee doe attribute no more as touching the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the one sacrament then you doe vnto water in the other man who cannot see the heart giueth remission to all that pretend to be penitent and contrite but God who seeth the heart e And would giue it though your new-found sacrament had neuer bin forged giueth remission by the ministery of man to those onely that are truely penitent and contrite And thus much for the true vnderstanding of the question betwéene vs. Now forasmuch as the literall sense being wholy for vs the controuersie doth consist onely in the right interpretation let vs compare together your interpretation and ours that we may the better discerne whether of them is most like to be true f VVe build our faith vpoÌ„ no mans opinion old or yong doe you as best beseemes your pâ—ofession you doe build your faith herein vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or perhaps vpon the conceit of your owne braine and wee vpon the authoritie of the g Here is a goodly vaunt if the matter could be so caried away with bigge wordes this fellow would doe well inough ancient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remayning euen to this day To conclude for the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation thus I doe argue against it If Christ did giue this authoritie of binding and loosing vnto his disciples onely and to their successors as I thinke you will not deny it then cannot the preaching of the word bee that binding and loosing giuen onely to the disciples and their successors because h As though a learned lay man had authoritie to preach the word a learned lay man who is none of the disciples successors may bind and loose in that sense that you doe interpret and open and shut the kingdome of heauen as well as an i VVe allow no such ministers ignorant and vnlearned minister Other doctrine then this as touching the forgiuing or retayning of sinnes the church of Rome teacheth not sauing that whereas in the sacrament of Penance temporall penance is inioyned we doe hold that the k Who gaue that power to the Pope I am sure it is more then euer Peter had or practised or bequeathed to his successors this is not to be found either in S. Matthew or S. Iohn Pope hath power to release alter or mittigate the same eyther in the life of the partie or if the partie fortune to die before the performance of his penance to pardon the same after his death For your ful satisfaction herein I l And I you to the answere wil referre you to a learned discourse thereof written in the english tongue by our countrey man Cardinall Allen. The Answere THe Keyes now remaine to bee scoured from popish rust and to this purpose wee may consider that Saint Peters keyes are first taken in hand Math 16.19 Iohn 20.23 Bellar. de pontif and then those keyes that were committed by our Sauiour to the Apostles yet if you will beleeue Bellarmine the first place out of Matthew doth but promise that Saint Peter should be a keykeeper I will giue the
c. and the other out of Iohn Rom. lib. 1. cap. 2. giueth the Apostles no more but Potestatē ordinis ad remittenda peccata Power of order to remit sins Thus must your papist either be at oddes with Bellarmine or else giue claues iurisdictionis the keyes of iurisdiction onely to Peter and his successors and to the rest nothing but potestatem ordinis and so consequently he must find other places besides these or else his keyes will neither open nor shut as he would haue them Wherefore let him consult with Bellarmine his master before he presume ouer farre vpon the doctrine of the Church of Rome and he will tell him that the keyes both of order and iurisdiction were giuen to Peter in these words Iohn 21.15 c. Iohn 20.21 c. Pasce oves meas Feede my sheepe and to the other Apostles in these as my father sent me so send I you and in these words to receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes yee reteine they are reteined and here note by the way how solemnely Father Bellarmine tels vs that our Sauiour in these two places gaue Summam potestatem Chiefe power to all his Apostles Sed cum quadam subiectione ad Petrum But with a kind of subiection to Peter As if summa potestas and subiectio could possibly agree together or as if Peter himselfe receaued that same high power among the rest vsed it Cum quadam subiectione ad se ipsum with a kind of subiection to himself Such ridiculous absurdities doe men runne headlong into when they are ouer hastily carried away with their owne dreames But goe too let vs intreat the Cardinall to beare with his friend and to procure him a dispensation to vnderstand these two places which he citeth after his owne liking what hath he than to say Marry then I say our sense is more literall then yours well and what saith he else Nay we say that our Sauiour by these words doth giue authoritie and commission to his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be Yea but haue they commission to forgiue sinnes wheresoeuer they find it or else in them onely that God is willing to forgiue Their commission I trow is not vniuersall to all without discretion and to dreame who it is that God purposeth to shew mercy vnto is beyond the capacitie of any man liuing Papist to Protestant he that hath a letter of Atturney from his master to giue possession of and knoweth the man to whom he is commaunded to conuey his masters interest Rom. 9.18 but our master hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will hee hardeneth neither may your popist Priest presume that hee knoweth the mind of the Lord Rom. 11.33.34 and can find out his wayes and iudgements which be insearchable and so this silly papist heere confesseth when he saith that man giueth remission to pretended penitents which God who seeth their hearts doth not ratifie now then conferre this power thus exercised hand ouer head to good and bad as papists vse it with our preaching or publishing remission to penitent sinners and then iudge whether is most like to be the better And because he bragges of the literrall sense that it makes wholly for him let him tell mee how the generall words of the Scripture whatsoeuer thou shalt bind whatsoeuer thou shalt loose whosoeuers sinnes yee remit and whosoeuers sinnes ye retaine can be literally restrained to such onely as be truely penitent if this cannot be done without a quatefication let him not bragge that his sense is more literall than ours we preach remission to all that be penitent and so open vnto them the kingdome of heauen to the impenitent Rom. 2.8 and such as contentiously disobey the truth wee denounce indignation and wrath Esay 5.14 and so shut heauen open hell wide that their glory their multitude pompe may descend into it neither can this sense seeme strange to such as be conuersant in the writings of the Fathers Thus saith Tertullian Contr. Marcion lib. 4. Esa lib. 6. cap. 14. De Cain Abel lib. 2. cap. 4. In Oper. imperf in Mat. cap. 23. Quam clauem habebant legis doctores nisi interpretationem legis What keyes had the doctors of the law but the interpretation of the law Thus Ierome Soluunt Apostoli sermone Dei testimonijs scripturarum exhortatione virtutū The Apostles doe loose by the word of God and testimonies of the Scriptures and exhortation vnto vertues Thus Ambrose Remittuntur peccata per verbum Dei cuius Leuites est interpres Sinnes are remitted by the word of God of which the minister is interpreter Thus Chrysostome Clauicularij sunt sacerdotes quibus creditum est verbum docendi interpretandi scripturas The key-keepers are the Priests vnto whom the word of teaching and interpreting the Scriptures is committed But it may be our papist by comparison of his interpretation and ours will find out the truth thus hee writes you build your faith vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or the conceit of your owne braine and we vpon the authoritie of the auncient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall Church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remaining to this day Heere is a tale told with all circumstances pressed downe and running ouer for hee might haue left out either vniuersall Church or through the whole world either continued or continuall practise or remaining to this day if he had not purposed to dazle vs with emptie wordes but is this the comparison he crakes of Now surely we must needs bee hard hearted that cannot yeeld to such comparisons can you prooue that wee build our faith vpon Luther or Caluine or our owne braine or doe you compare together our faith and yours when you compare the opinion and conceit of Luther or Caluine with the authority of the ancient Fathers Alas good Papist you cannot but know that our faith is no mans conceit or opinion and it is a shame for you to confesse that you build your faith vpon the authoritie of the Fathers or practise of the Church be it neuer so ancient I hope the fathers builded not vpon other Fathers that were their ancients but vpon the infallible word of God and what should ayle vs that we may not vse that meanes the Fathers vsed before vs you may talke long inough of Fathers and traditions and your toppe gallant Church of Rome as though no one Father sayd any thing for vs yet when you haue all done you must giue vs leaue ot we will take leaue to found our faith and religion vpon the written word of the Almightie Thus is your Popish fellowes Rhetoricke come to small effect and therefore he will now trie what his Logicke can doe Thus
the vngodlie wee aske we obtaine The Dialogue Sectio XXVII ANd here will I make and end referring that which hitherto hath béene spoken to your better censure and further consideration whereupon if you shall rest resolued that you haue rightly described the Church of Christ and that you are also a member of the same yet a No such matter it is but the vanitie of your conceit must you be inforced to graunt that all the ancient fathers before mentioned were hereticks and that so was also that vniuersall Church whereof they make mention so ofteÌ„ in their writings b Paul saith that Antichrist doth sit in the temple of God and therefore no maruel though his seat were alwayes in preparing in the Church wherin the said heretical and papisticall doctrine was taught and practised but let vs admit although it bée most false that there was in the world such a Church as you haue c VVe goe by truth not by imagination imagined for the first 300 yéeres next alter Christ and that these ancient fathers and doctors with their adherents did afterward ecclypse that cleare light of the Gospell which shined in those first 300. yéeres yet how can we imagine that the Church of Christ which was indowed with so many gifts of the holy Ghost and which euer flourished and increased most amidst the tortures of so many heathen Emperours could vpon d We doe not imagine so for the kingdome of Antichrist was not erected vpon a suddane but by lâ—tle and litle irremarkeably as weeds vse to grow among thâ— good coâ—ne a sudden be so vtterly quayled and extinguished by these hereticall doctors as that no member thereof should once take pen in hand in defence of the trueth against their heresies or how can we e VVho bids you imagine so but your Synagogue lay hidden til Antichrist was d sclosed 2. Thes 2.3 imagine that the Church of Christ should for the space of 1300. yéeres lie hidden in so secret corners of the world as that none of the said papisticall doctors who wrote against all those by the name of heretickes which helde any doctrine contrary to that which they f The ancient fathers neuer termed such as you be Catholicks nor your doctrine Catholicke termed Catholicke could heare of them or that in all that time no generall Councell who were gathered together from all parts of the world should receiue intelligence g No Chur h had any being then but ours onely of the being of your mathematicall Church professing christianity in so farre different a maner which if either any of the said doctors or any of those general Councels had done h Non sequitur we should haue heard of them in the Catalogue of heretickes or haue found their opinions condemned by some generall councels so soone as Aerius arose and denied prayer for the dead c. he was i Full simply and full little to your credit but single men such as Epiphanius was in this case haue no authoritie to dubbe heretickes confuted by Epiphanius and afterward by S. Austine when the reall presence was k It was impugned 200 nay 500. yeeres and odde before your Lateran councels first impugned the first authors thereof were condemned by the Councell of Laterane and so of other of your opinions as they sprang vp in latter yeeres but a Protestant religion such as is now established in England was neuer heard of in the world before king Edwards time neither hath that religion at this day any being in the world l A foule vntruth without either gaâ—d or welt but in England onely And Puritany such m They professe no such matter as professe to be of a church which holdeth no doctrine but such as is warranted by scripture neuer had nor yet hath any being in the world so that it is n This fellow seemes not to know what religion and Church is a religion and a church as yet in imagination onely for although Puritanes o you haue cause to loue them the better for in so doing they resemble you Papists doe violently and ridiculously wrest the scripture for proofe of euery point of their doctrine yet doe they hold many things not warranted by scripture as before I haue sufficiently prooued There was neuer heresie in the world but you shall reade when it first sprang vp how it grew and increased and when it was cut downe and withered away you shall neuer p you may read in Paul when it first sprang and when it shal be cut downe 2. Thes 2 7 8 reade when the catholicke religion first sprang it hath for these 1300. yéeres by q VVe confesse no such matter your own confession increased and florished it hath béene confirmed by infinite miracles and watered with the blood of millions of Martyrs and therefore the way that leadeth and directeth vnto the catholicke religion is r But by your leaue we must doubt of it or rather be out of doubt it is not no doubt the way whereof the Prophet Esay speaketh saying And there shall be a path and a way and it shall be called the holy way and it shall be to you so direct and plaine as fooles shall not be able to erre therein Contrariwise you shall Å¿ In the Bible reade when and where your doctrine first sprang vp who were the fathers thereof and it hath béene t The more to blame they that did it cut so oft as it hath reuiued so oft as any branch thereof hath sprung vp it hath béene confuted and condemned by generall Councels and is registred in the Catalogue of latter heresies you can shew no succession of bishops no myracles no u These be stale prattlements of no weight beseeming such vain ianglers martyrs nor name any one member of your Church before Iohn Caluin for although Wickliffe Husse and Luther with the Waldenses and certaine other condemned heretickes of Armenia and Grecia did iumpe with you in some of your opinions yet was none of them either Protestant or Puritane and so none of your Church and therefore the way that leadeth to your Church is not that direct and playne way whereof the Prophet speaketh but rather an inexplicable Labyrinth wherein there is x VVe haue the holy word of God to giue vs light and to guide vs cursed be he that lookes for better direction Amen no light no path no compasse or guide to direct your course The Answere HEere this man would make an end if hee could tell how but his conscience telling him that his discourses are weake and insufficient he would faine fortifie them with a little generall talke propounded and answered longe agoe Sect. 5. alibi and therefore though it be needlesse to keepe downe a dead Carkasse with any newe answere vnlesse hee could blowe life into it with some newe defence yet somewhat more would bee added in this place
for the repressing of popish insolencie First therefore where it is disputed that if our description of the Church be right then the ancient Fathers were heretickes and the vniuersall Church hereticall I am content this sequele be iudged by that which hath been alreadie disputed if euerie disagreement from truth must needs bee heresie Gal. 2.11 c. Act. 15.39 Act. 11.2 c. then either Paul or Peter was an hereticke and so was either Barnabas or Paul who were so stirred the one against the other that they parted asunder Peter was chidden of the Church of Iewrie for communicating to the Gentiles yet the Church was deceiued and not Peter 1. Co. 3 12.13 euerie errour is not an heresie and euerie one that builds timber hay or stubble vpon the foundation is not an hereticke and therefore this loose talke is little worth Yea but let vs admit saith hee that there was such a Church as you imagine in the first three hundred yeeres after Christ though it bee most false nay you must admit it maugre your head neither is it false euer the sooner with a merrie word prooue it to be false and wee will bee as farre from either admitting it or imagining it as your selfe but so long as you vse such a generall defence as they of Sodome and Gomorha and the Cities adioyning might haue vsed against Lot the Cananites against Abraham and the old world against Noah and his familie there is no cause why such goodly shewes of antiquitie should controll Gods truth if Lot Abraham and Noah had beene ruled by prescription of time by multitude by authoritie of Princes by traditions of Elders or by any thing else in the world but Gods owne mouth they had been as Sodome and like to Gomorha and yet for all that Peter the head Patron of Rome as you say and the Iewes that depended vppon him playd the hypocrites together and Barnabas a good man full of the holy Ghost and faith Act. 11.24 was led away with them to the same hypocrisie and though the scripture testifie of Lot that hee was a iust man Gal. 2.13 and that his righteous soule was vexed from day to day with the vncleanly conuersation of the wicked yet by your leaue 2. Pet. 2.7.8 the prostitution of his daughters his drunkenesse and incest Gen. 19.8.31 c. doe plainely euince that he was somewhat tainted with the sins of Sodome Yea but Sodome was not the Church of God neither was there any Christian Church established when Peter and his companie playd the hypocrites Well Let that bee graunted yet my reason is so much the stronger for if Strangers from God and young Nouises in religion preuailed so much that the one drew Lot the other Peter and Barnabas to doe thinges not conuenient how much more may the vsuall slips and fals and infections of Christian Churches worke the like inconueniences in the Fathers and guides of the same we doe not imagine that the Church of Christ was vtterly quailed and extinguished vpon a suddaine for that 's more than the gates of hell shall euer be able to bring to passe but this we say and are sure that the mysterie of iniquitie did worke in Pauls time and fell not a sleepe as soone as Saint Paule was dead waking againe 600. 2. Thes 2.7 yeares after when this mysterie was disclosed for Rome was not built in a day or vpon a suddaine and the Maister builders of it are none of the seuen Sleepers and therefore no maruaile though perusing Councels Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward we finde the print of the Popes feet here and there scatteringly and so perceiue how he went on and grewe to the fulnesse of the age of Antichrist Neither is it preiudiciall to Gods cleere truth faithfully registred in the word of God that none tooke penne in hand to defend it against Antichrist for the Angels of Pergamus and Thyatira Reuel cap. 2.14.15.20 though they were Gods faithfully Ministers yet doe wee not read that either they or any of their fellowes and friends wrote or spake any thing against Baalamites and Nicholaitans and the false prophecies of Iesabell that infected their Churches Epist 119. ad Ianuar. Austine saith Multa huiusmodi propter nonnull trum vel sanctarum vel turbulentarum personarum scandala deuitanda liberiùs improbare non audeo I dare not freely as I should improoue many scandals of this kind because of some either holy or troublesome persons that fauour them and therefore no maruell though the religion of Antichrist being a compound heresie of many simples grew on soft and faire and plodded still forward by little and by little without any resistance till the time came it should bee disclosed if the light of truth had been suddenly eclipsed the ancient Fathers and their adherents would haue laboured to restore it but this eclipse growing slowly by small peeces they knew not the deepenesse of Satan Reuel 2.24 Math. 13.25 c. and so gaue the tares of Antichrist leaue to growe so long among the wheat til they were past weeding neuerthelesse looke the preface of Caluines Institutions to the French King and there you shall finde the testimonies of Acacius Spiridion Ambrose Austine Epiphanius Gelasius Chrysostome Calixtus Cyprian Apollonius Paphnutius and others against outward braueries abstinence from flesh monkish idlenesse painted Images suffrages for the dead transubstantiation the halfe communion vnwritten determinatiōs set fastings forbidding mariage mans weak iudgment and such like flowers of Antichrists garland and if these had sayd nothing yet there were many other Fathers besides these and whether they tooke penne in hand and wrote more fully against the seuerall branches of Poperie as they grew it were hard to tell yet may wee affirme it with as good probabilitie as you may denie it howsoeuer it be the wisedome of God hauing so decree to punish our vnthankefulnesse the doctrine of Rome Reuel 17.9 which is the seat of Antichirst grew and increased a long time but thankes bee to God it is now in such a consumption as eats vp the flesh of it 2. Thes 2.8 and wee haue sufficient warrant that it shall bee abolished Neither is this increase and multiplication of errour till it conquer sinceritie and truth and breake forth into open absurdities so strange a matter in the Church of God Thus you may read in the Valentine Councell In proemio Quorundā patrum vtilis fuit religiosa suggestio retractandi de his quae nec recipere possumus ob ecclesiae sanctitatem nec tamen vsquequaque consuetudinis causa damnare ita enim per omnes ecclesias eiusmodi vitiorum germen inoleuit vt ad plena remedia non facilis sit recursus Profitable and religious is the motion of certain Fathers concerning retracting those thinges which because of the holynesse of the Church we may not receiue and yet by reason of custome dare
not condemne for such a seede of vices hath growne by custome in all Churches that now wee haue no easie recourse to a full remedie Againe Can 1. Fratrum nostrorum vel imperitiam vel simplicitatem vel etiam presumptionem damnare non possumus nec per omnes ecclesias quae sunt iam pridem male gesta corrigere Wee cannot condemne either the vnskilfulnesse or simplicitie or if ye will presumption of our brethren nor correct all the thinges that haue beene of late badly done in all Churches Againe Quod prauae consuetudinis vitio ab Hispaniensibus Episcopis factum est ita reprehendimus vt propter numerum corrigendorū Innocen prim Epist 24 ad S nod Tolet cap. 1. ea quae quo quo modo facta sunt non in dubium vocemus sed Dei potius iuditio dimittamus That which was done by the Bishops of Spaine through the corruption of euill custome wee so reprooue that because of the number of them that bee to be corrected wee call not in question the thinges that were disorderly done but leaue them to the iudgement of God And againe Mens potentiae auida Leo primus ad Anathol Constant Epist 51 nec abstinere nouit à vetitis nec gaudere concessis dum inordinato prauoque progressu impunitarum transgressionum augentur excessus crebrescunt culpae quae toleratae sunt studio fidei reparandae amore concordiae A minde that is greedie of aduancement knoweth neither how to abstaine from things forbidden nor how to vse well things that are graunted whilest excesses are increased and faults multiplyed thorough the inordinate and wicked proceding of transgressions vnpunished which were tolerated of a desire of repayring the faith and loue of concord Thus may you see that good men and worthy Fathers of Gods Church by bearing with small matters for the common peace and welfare of the Church did so multiply absurdities that in the end they might cast their caps at them sooner than represse them withall you may see what Fathers Poperie is an adherent vnto namely such as the Valentine Councell Pope Innocent and Leo speake of as for the former ages of the Church Bishop Iewell in the defence of the Apologie Challenge hath so vncased the face of Antichrist that hid it selfe vnder the visard of Fathers and Counsels that none of the Popes Adherents euer went about to couer it with any answere Moreouer whereas this fellow relies so much vpon antiquitie as if the ancient Fathers were flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones why doth not hee or some of his idle companions take Master Foxes booke in hand where the substance of all antiquitie is orderly set downe Apoc. 17.5.6 and the whole glorie and power of his Babilon that is drunken with the blood of Saints and Martyrs vtterly defaced I haue heard that there is an answere abroad called The hunting of the Fox but such lustie vnmaried Priests as bee so well fedde and fatted here in England are fitter to haunt I wote what than to hunt such a Fox as hee is to any great purpose it may well be nibled at like a great chase among mice but I perswaded that Papist liues not at this day that either hath will or can afford it a full answere But to returne to this fellow that prates so of Fathers and Counsels as though they were al in his bosome let it be obserued how cunningly hee takes that for graunted which neither hee nor any man else liuing is able to iustifie let vs admit saith he that the ancient Fathers and Doctors with their adherents did eclipse the cleere light of the Gospel which shined in the first 300. hundred yeeres Againe how can wee imagine that the Church of Christ for the space of 1300. yeres lay hidden in so secret a corner that none of the Doctors could heare of it Againe how it can bee that in all that time no generall Counsell should haue intelligence of the being of the Church that professed Christianitie in so different a manner And againe if any of the Doctors or any generall Councell had heard of them they had been put in the Catalogue of heretickes and their opinions condemned all this silly Sophistrie called petitio principij for we neither will nor doe nor euer did graunt that the Fathers eclipsed the light of the Gospell or that the Church in their time lay hidden in secret corners or that no generall Councell had intelligence of it these thinges our Pettyfogging-Papist is faine to beg and to take as granted because he can no more proue any one of them than he can eat a load of logges No no the Fathers were members of Gods Church and so were and are wee as for Poperie what is it else but a certaine scumme and froth that seethes out of the liquor of the ancient Fathers which the Scripture hath taught vs to cast into the fire And here let me set you downe Doctor Whitakers words Answere to Reinolds cap. 6. that such blind Sophisters as haue not seene them in his Booke may see them here and bee ashamed the mysterie of iniquitie saith he which in Papistrie is fully finished began to worke in the Apostles age and so continued still forward in the Fathers dayes vntill it came to his height and perfection in the Kingdome of Popery they slipt a little you are fallen headlong into the pit they were ouerseen through infirmitie you are blinde of malice they scattered some darnell in the Lords field you haue plucked vp by the roots the good corne they suffered losse of this building being not agreeable with the foundation yet are saued you ouerthrow the foundation it selfe and therefore cannot in this opinion be saued Againe the ancient Fathers holding the ground and foundation of Doctrine did oftentimes build thereon stubble and straw partly by some superstitious opinions which themselues conceiued of such inuentions and partly by the sway violence of custome wherby they were caried to a liking of those things which they saw commended and practised by others yet God forbid that because of some errours which they held wee should raze their names out of the Kalender of Gods Saints or thinke otherwise than reuerently of them Againe though they erred yet were they notwithstanding good men and holy Fathers were not the Apostles holy men when they dreamed of an earthly Kingdome in this world were they void of holynesse when they beleeued that the Gospell was to bee preached to the Iewes onely Many holy Fathers were infected with the errour of the Chiliasts who notwithstanding are worthily accounted Saints of God Cyprian and many godly Bishops with him erred about the baptisme ministred by heretickes yet lost they not for all that the opinion and name of holy Fathers c. Againe the case of the Galatians is the same with yours for as they thought to be iustified by the workes of the law so doe you
house of God as for wresting the Scripture when any of you all can iustifie that the most witlesse Puritane in England doth wrest them more violently and ridiculously than your selues then will I be a Protestant no longer You Papists though your brawles bee endlesse one with another Canonists against Schoole-men Franciscans against Dominicks Nominals against Reals Thomas against Lombard Scotus against Thomas Occam against Scotus Alliacensis against Occam Peter Sot against Catharine Catharine against Caietan Caietan against Pighius Iesuites against Priests and Priests against Iesuites yet forsooth these dogs cats are of one Cage they are all members of the Romish Church but Protestants and Puritans being diuers names that differ not in the grounds of faith but in small points as Richard and Thomas or Iohn and Iames doe in colour and complexion and countenance they forsooth cannot bee both members of the same Church But what should I spend time with such a prater as dares face vs out that such a Religion as is now established in England was neuer heard of in the world before King Edwards time I am sure there is no other Religion established in England but that which is cleerely taught in the word of God brought hether first by Simon a Nicephor lib. 2. cap 4. Zelotes Ioseph b Ghildas of Arimathea Saint c Theodor. de cur graecor affect lib. 9. Paul the Apostle al of them or some of them watred stil on in the daies of d Lib contra Iudaeos Tertullian e In Ezec. ho. 4 Origen f Apolog. secunda Athanasius g Initio lib. de Synod contra Arian Hilarie h Homil. quod Christus sit Deus aduers gentil Chrysostome i Hyst eccles lib. 1. cap. 10. lib. 4. cap. 3 Theodoret all which ancient Fathers speake honourably of the Church and Religion and Prelates of Britaine Now whether this Church and this Religion so planted and so watred were the same that was restored and established in the happy daies of King Edward and Queene Elizabeth both Princes of blessed memorie it is so cleerely decided in the written word of God that the crying and yelling of our forlorne Papists shall neuer be able to perswade the contrarie Yea but Aerius you know as soone as hee denyed prayer for the dead was confuted and the first that impugned the reall presence was condemned in the Councell of Lateran and so were other of your opinion as they sprange vp in later yeeres This man you see will not giue ouer as long as hee can say any thing but goo too let vs not thinke much to answere these triflles Aerius indeed denyed prayer for the dead if Epiphanius mistake not the matter yet I denie that hee vnderstood such kinde of praying for the dead as the Popish Church vseth at this day Papists pray for the release of veniall offences punishable in Purgatorie but Aerius spake against the common errour of his time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 namely that the forgiuenesse of incurable sinnes might bee procured to the dead by the prayers of the liuing if this be heresie then bee you heretickes your selues Touching the reall presence Bertram it is well knowne that Bertram wrote against it without any mans contradiction 400. yeeres before the Counsell of Lateran Aelfricus And so did Aelfricus Archbishop of Canterburie almost 200. yeeres after Bertram in a Sermon which was yeerely read in our Churches at the feast of Easter As for the time that followed in later yeeres after the Lat eran Councell wee say of it Luk. 22.53 as our Sauiour doth of the like time This is your verie houre and the power of darkenesse Thus haue I shewed you briefly but sufficiently when the great compound heresie of Poperie first sprange how it grew peece by peece till Antichrist was disclosed 2. Thes 2.8 I haue told you also how it hath been consumed by the breath of Gods mouth and when it shall be cut downe and wither As for Miracles and Martyrs Cath. 7.22 24 24. 2. Thes 2.9 Apoc. 16.14 the one prooueth you to bee th◠brood of Antichrist of whose lying wonders the scripture hath foretold vs the other namely Gods Martyrs they crie out for vengeance against blood-suckers for so we are taught in the Reuelation and such blood-suckers are you and haue euer beene as Master Foxe hath most truely set it downe to your euerlasting shame and confusion such Miracles as yours bee wee can shew none neither can wee make Martyrs as you can God giue vs all grace to keepe that way and path that leadeth and directeth to the Kingdome of heauen and graunt vs rather good Bishops without succession than succession without good Bishops that all of vs both Bishops and people high and low rich and poore one with another may glorifie God the Father of our lord Iesus Christ So be it Ierem. Cap. 49.10 I haue discouered Esau I haue vncouered his secrets and he shall not be able to hide himselfe Tertul. de prescript aduersus heretic Haereses de quorundam infirmitatibus habent quod valent nihil valentes si in bene valentem fidem incurrant Paraeneticum carmen Authoris ad Magistrum I. S. SI cupis ad superos per inania tecta domorum Altius horrendo scandere cum sonitu Consule Papistas hominum immanissima mōstra Qui scandendi alium non didicêre modum O scelus infandum nùm crudo sanguine pascit Italus ille suas Pontificaster oues Siccine pascendum vasto Polyphemus in antro Eructans saniem quam bibit ante docet Siccine scandendū ad superos docet vncta meretrix Quae tota innocuo mersa cruore rubet O fuge quid cessas meretricia desere castra Scandendique nouam disce tenere viam Eiusdem conclusio ad D. Doctorem Grimston medicum praestantissimum SI quid in hoc fuerit lectoribus vtile libro Non mihi sed cutae gratia danda tuae Et liber libri dominus paulò ante redemptus Libertus tuus est desijt esse suus Mortis serua tuo fit libera vita labore Libera vita tuo facta labore tua est Viuo igitur viuoque tuus viuamque per omnem Quam dederas vitam seu tua seu mea sit FINIS