part of the question that it may gaine-say the former Example If the Protestants haue any faith the world was without faith Art 1. par 1. 1500. yeares But the world was not without faith 1500. yeares Therefore the Protestants haue no faith This Papist affirmes that the Protestants haue no faith to proue it he brings this argument that the world was not without faith 1500. yeares The Syllogisme is of the later kind because the latter part of the proposition is gainesaid in the assumption and the former in the conclusion A Disiunctiue Syllogisme is when the Proposition is Disiunctiue whereof also there are two kinds The former gainsayes one and concludes the rest Example All Protestants build their faith vpon their owne priuate exposition Art 2. par 1. of the scripture or vpon the Churches exposition But they build not vpon the Churches exposition Therefore they build vpon their owne priuate exposition The point is that the Protestants build their faith vpon their owne priuate exposition of scripture the proofe is that they build it not vpon the Churches exposition The Syllogisme is of the former kinde because in the proposition the one part is seuered from the other the one whereof is gainesaid in the assumption and the other affirmed in the conclusion The Latter when all parts of the Proposition being affirmatiue one is assumed and the rest gainesaid It is hard to finde examples of this latter kinde but I will frame one thus Example The Pope builds his faith either vpon his owne singular exposition or vpon the Churches But he doth build vpon his owne exposition Therefore not vpon the Churches To proue that the Pope builds not his faith vpon the Churches exposition I alledge this argument he builds vpon his owne My Syllogisme is of the second kinde because the proposition being wholy affirmatiue assumes the one and gainesayes the other It was very necessary that I should deliuer the Rules of a Syllogisme because without them my course of answering cannot be throughly vnderstood If they seeme hard to any man a little paines and vse will make them easye and pleasant His request of breuity I haue satisfied as neere as I could It is easier to tye a knot then to vntye it and one man hath greater dexterity in vttering shortly that which he hath conceiued then another For my part I had rather any man had answered that can do it with shortnesse then my selfe rather my selfe then no body but I hope this Papist will stand to his owne ground in his Preface and since he holds it hard or impossible to reply without prolixitie where there is no truth nor verity he will acknowledge truth where he cannot but acknowledge shortnesse His threatnings and reproches I doe willingly and wittingly passe ouer as the heate of an angry disputer and withall I protest to him and all men that I haue answered according to my small skill briefly orderly and seriously not least I should seeme ignorant by silence in saying nothing as he presumes in the end of his letter but as I thinke and beleeue in my conscience For what am I the meanest of many and most vnknowne not to the Papists only but to our owne Church also that I should feare the suspition of ignorance by silence when so many famous diuines sit still and say nothing If he that hath answered the first part had thought it worth his paines and found leasure to refute the second I cannot say I should haue wholie saued my labour for it is not vnknowne to some that I had finished all the 12. before his answere to the fiue first came forth but sure I should haue beene eased of some paines which I haue taken since especially in writing the abridgement and auoyded all danger of further trouble But the Lord who hath giuen me strength and will to dispatch this will I doubt not assist me in the defence of his trueth for euer To whose gracious blessing I commend the successe of this and all other my indeuours in Iesus Christ our Lord and onely Sauiour Amen THE FIRST ARTICLE concerning Knowledge and Faith THe Protestants haue no faith nor religion Answere For the better vnderstanding of this Article we are to know that the question is not Whether the Protestants haue any faith or Religion in their hearts but whether they make profession of any by their doctrine Papist The Protestants haue no faith no hope no charitie no A. Conclusion repentance no iustification no Church no Altar no Sacrifice no Priest no religion no Christ The reason is for if they haue then the world was without B. Proposition them for 1000. yeares as they themselues must needes confesse videl All that time their Church was eclipsed or for 1500. as we will proue by the testimony of all records of antiquity as Histories Councels monuments of ancient fathers Whereby it plainly appeareth that the Synagogue of C. Proofe of the Assumption Propositiō the Iewes was more constant in continuance and more ample for place then the Church of Christ for they haue had their synagogue visible in diuers countries euer since Christs death and passion euen vntill this day Which is the very path to lead men into Athiesme as D. Proofe of the Assumption a Isai 60. 11. b Mat. 16. 18. c Mat. 28. 20. though Christ were as yet not come into the world whose admirable promises are not accomplished whose assistance hath failed in preseruing his Church vnto the worldes end whose presence was absent many hundred yeares before the consummation and consequently they open the gap to all Machiuillians who say that our Sauiour was one of the deceiuers of the world promising so much concerning his Church and performing so little Protestant How can it be truely said that the Protestants haue no A. faith no hope no charitie no repentance no iustification no church no altar no sacrifice no Priest no religion no Christ when as they acknowledge Iesus Christ the naturall sonne of God and of the blessed Virgin Mary to be the Redeemer of mankind their Altar Sacrifice and Priest when as they beleeue in him for saluation both of soule and body If he meane we beleeue not these points truely and so haue them not in trueth true charitie should haue perswaded him to speake plainely and not to make no difference betweene Protestants Mahometans and Infidels It is at the best rather hyperbolicall Rhetorick then Logicall diuinitie whereof there is promise and shew made in this treatise To this figure belongs the heaping vp of all those particulars no faith no hope c. whereas the two points set downe in the title being proued all the rest must needs follow yet this shift is not the worst For besides this he mingles trueth and falshood together Altar Sacrifice propitiatorie and Priest except Christ himselfe we professe we haue none but what doth Chaffe with Wheate saue onely that
Church in this place neither a generall council nor the Pope is ment but the Gouernours of seuerall congregations or the whole congregations themselues whether they be more or fewer so they be a church that is of necessity more then one Therfore whatsoeuer can be gathered out of this text for the churches priuiledge and soueraignty belongs to the Pastors and Rulers of seuerall churches If then by this scripture it be proued that the church cannot erre it is proued that the pastors and gouernours of seuerall charges cannot erre How then is this the speciall priuiledge of the Pope But indeed this is a great question and I thinke not easie by any Papist to be decided whether the priuiledge of not erring belong to the Pope or to the church If it were giuen to Peter and his successors why is it made common to them with the rest of the church If it appertaine to the whole church why is it appropriated to the Pope If it rest in the Pope what becomes of it Sede vacante when there is no Pope At such times be like the church may erre yea and at other times too For if it be proper to the Pope not to erre then all beside the Pope may erre and so it may come to passe that there shal be no church in the world because the Pope alone if he be neuer so great a head is but a head whereas to the being of a church a body also is necessary and not a head only * The 2. part of the proofe of the principall proposition To the second part of the profe of the principal proposition The 2. proofe that the church cānot erre To the secōd proofe that the church can not erre They that doe not beleeue the Church cannot erre haue no meanes to settle themselues in vnity of beleefe The truth of this Proposition wil be more fitly examined when we come to his Refutation of the scriptures sufficiency in the meane while let vs see what these other proofes are that follow If God ordained Pastors and Doctors least the Church should be carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine then the Church cannot erre What Church meane you not the Pope for he hath not this priuiledge as he is a Pastor or Doctor but as he is Peters successor nor the congregation for the people both may and doe erre What then These Pastors and Doctors But they are not all Popes I trow that they should be exempted from possibility of erring It was indeed Gods purpose in giuing Pastors and Doctors that his children which only are the Church should be instructed and established in all truth and accordingly it comes to passe in matters of substance and foundation but this is done by little and little as the Apostle witnesses in this place knowledge being not perfect all at once but first beginning as in children then by degrees receauing a continual increase till we come to the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ which is neuer found in any while we remaine 1. Cor. 13. 9. in this vale of ignorance where we do but see in part If this reason proue any thing it makes as well for euery Pastor and Doctor in his seuerall charge as for the Pope in his pretended generall For it cannot be doubted but that the whole succession of the ministery is here signified vnder the title of Pastors Doctors in seuerall Congregations such as this or these of the Ephesians were Neither can w◠from Gods purpose conclude the necessitie of the euent since we finde the contrary in dayly experience and know by scripture that not these or those means but only in generall means of saluation are prouided for them whom God hath chosen to eternall life though ordinarily the word be the means The Princes end in making and appointing iudges is that true iustice may be administred to the people Nay more then that it is also Gods purpose in this his owne ordinance yet it doth not follow hereupon that the Iudges or Magistrats cannot or will not erre But if Christ haue promised the Church the assistance of the The 3. proofe that the church cānot erre To the 3. proofe that the church cānot erre holy Ghost in such sort that they that will not heare her will not heare him then the Church cannot erre If this promise of Christ be generall that whosoeuer will not heare the church in all points will not heare him then the consequence is good But that we deny because it is restrained to the scripture according to which if the church speake not we may not at any hand giue eare vnto her You will say she neuer speakes but agreeably to the Scriptures That is the question which we must see how you proue in your assumption Io◠14. 17. Luc. 10. 16. The Father shall giue you saith Christ to his Apostles another comforter euen the spirit of truth which the world cannot receaue c. If Christ promised to his Apostles the spirit of truth then the church cannot erre First our Sauiour in this place enforces not vpon this guift of the spirit any necessitie of hearing whatsoeuer the Church shall deliuer but only makes this promise by way of comfort Secondly this promise is made not to the church in generall but to the Apostles in particular Thirdly is is made not onely to them all ioyntly but also to euery one of them seuerally So that if by this place any thing can be concluded for the Church at this daye euery particular Pastor or Minister may claime this priuilege of not erring and beyng heard whatsoeuer he teach which being most absurde and impious that charge to heare and penalty for not hearing belongs simply to the Apostles only and to euery one of them whom the spirit of God infalliblie kept from erring To all others so far forth as that which they teach is agreeable to the word which the Lord by his Apostles hath left and commended to his Church Therefore howsoeuer the perswasion that the Church cannot erre may sometimes breed an outward quietnesse in the Church yet it hath no force to establish men in the vnitie of true beleefe since it may both deceaue and be deceaued not to end controuersies because all beleeue it not nor to abolish Heresies which many times it may fauour But what is it that he addes concerning generall Councills and auncient Fathers Haue they some priuilege the Church hath not Or is it his meaning to exemplifie that in particular which before he wrote in generall of the impossibility that the church should erre If it be then all he sayes of these for he brings no new reason is already answered in trying the Churches title to that feigned prerogatiue But cannot generall Councils deliuer false doctrine How chaunce then that some wholly others in part haue bin and are at this daie reiected by the Pope what say you to the three Councilles that make
comforts I spake of before vpheld him from all daunger of despayring and deliuered him from that perpetuity of torment in which otherwise hauing taken vpon him our Person hee should haue remained Now this so being we need not feare these thunder-bolts of horrible blasphemy although wee beleeue that Christ our sauiour did for a time indure in his soule the wrath of God which was due to our sinnes Neither doe we hereby make God the enemie of God nor of the humanitie of Iesus Christ which he euer most entirely loued but only auouch that God truly hated and punisht our sinnes in his owne sonne with such a kinde and measure of his wrath as being true and iust was euery way without sinne and finite in regard of the time so that I take the Doctrine to be voide of blasphemy howsoeuer the meaning of the Article bee conceiu'd Article 5. The Protestants haue no meane to determine Controuersies and abolish heresies Protestant No more then they haue a rule to know what is matter of Faith Papist As the Protestants neither know what they beleeue nor A. why they beleeue so haue they no meanes in their church to settle them in vnity of beleefe nor to determine controuersies nor to abolish heresies as hath the catholick church for our sauiour Christ by his diuine prouidence did foresee that heresies were to arise in his church as his Apostle S. Paule doth warne vs * 1. Cor 11 Profe that the church caÌ„not â—râ—e Mat. 18. 17 Eph. 4. 11. Ioh. 14. 17 Luk. 10. 16 § Profe of the principall proposition Act â—5 the which as plagues were to infect his flocke and therefore he not only forewarned vs of them but also gaue vs meanes how to preuent and extinguish them 1. â— He willed vs to heare his Church if we would not be accounted as Ethnicks and Publicans 2. He ordeined Pastors and Doctors least we should be carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine 3. He promised vnto the church the assistance of the holy Ghost in such sort as they which would not heare her would not heare him The catholicks therefore beleeuing certainly that the Church cannot erre that the generall Councils cannot deliuer false doctrine that the Pastors and ancient fathers with ioynt consent cannot teach vntruths when heresies spring vp presently with thâ— voice of the Church pluck them vp by the rootes a In the first Nicene couÌ„cel was coÌ„demned Arrius in the couÌ„cell of ConstaÌ„tinople Macedonius In the couÌ„cel of Ephesus Nestorius In the couÌ„cel of Calcedon Eutiches vide Aug. lib. 2. retract ca. 50 and so euer hath practised and after this maner ouerthrowne all encounters false opinions and errours which the Diuill by his ministers euer planted or established in the world and so they haue bin freed from all braules and quarrels in matters of religion But the Protestants admitting the sole scripture as Vmpere Principall propositioÌ„ and Assumption and iudge in matters of Controuersie and allowing no infallible interpreter thereof but remitting all to euery mans priuate spirit and singular exposition cannot possiblie without errour wind themselues out of the Labyrinth of so many Controuersies wherewith they are now inueagled and intricated And the irreconciliable iarres betwixt them and the Puritans in essentiall points of faith geue sâ—fficient testimony that they will neuer haue an end holding those grounds of opinion which they obstinately defend B. And albeit they goe about to bleare the peoples braines I haue heard of blearing the peoples eyes but neuer till now of blearing their braines which I know not what vnity and conformity in matters of faith and in the substance of religion and that their disagreement only consisteth in points of Ceremonies and trifles of small importance yet in very deed they differ in many essentiall points of religion And although this shift will perhaps serue to cast a mist ouer the confused conceipts of simple soules silly foolesâ— yet no wiseman wil euer beleeue them I pray you tell me is not the Kings supremacie a matter of faith and a chiefe point of religion And do not all sound Puritans in the world denie it and defie it Aske Caluin 7. Amos. Caluin the puritanicall Patriarke what he thought of King Henry the eight for assuming of such a preheminence vnto him read the Annales of Scotland and you shall finde the presumptuous presbytery euery foot opposing themselues against our Kings authority as though he had nothing to doe with the Kirke Looke into the carriage of our precisians at home and you shall find them in shew to professe it but in deeds and effects really to deny it For if they approue his supremacie with what face can they resist his ordinances in matters of religion why weare they not vestments Surplisses the Cap and Tippet why refuse they to baptise with the signe of the Crosse why subscribe they not to the the booke of common praier why obey they not the ecclesiasticall Canons established by his Maiesties authoritie No other reason of this obstinate repugnancie can be yeelded then that in very truth they doe not in Conscience allow of his supremacy 2. Is not the authority of Bishops their power to create ministers their degree in dignity aboue ordinary Curats and Pastors a matter oâ— faith and so neerely toucheth the gouernment of the Church that if this hereticall order be abolished Perhaps he would haue said hierarchicall the whole forme of Christs Church is presently confounded 3. The obseruation of feasts and holy dayes infringed by Puritans maintayned by protestants is it but a Ceremony were not the obstinate impugning thereof a sufficient reason to censure them for Heretikes did not the Councill of Nice condemne the Quartodecimani for Heretickes who would only haue obserued their Easter day vpon the 14. day of the moneth of March What if they had called our Precisians to the barre who will haue it wholy abolished Questionâ—es they would haue branded them in a farre deeper degree of Heresie then the Quartodecimani 4 Is not the obseruation of Lent and other fasting days a matter of more moment then trifles or then things indifferent Did not S. Epiphanius ceÌ„sure Aërius of Heresie for denying these prescript times for fasting For albeit they be not precisely set downe in scriptures and therein commaunded to be obserued yet they being either ordeyned by the Apostles or instituted by the church which had authoritie to appoint fastes at least as well as the puritane presbytery wiâ—hout doubt he that calleth this holy institution either doctrine of Diuils or torture of consciences or restraint of Euangelical libertie ought by the iudgement of all true protestants to be condemned for a pagon and infidell who wil not submit his soule to the censure of the Church 5. The Puritans blasphemously pronounce and ignorantly defende that Christ suffred the paines of hell vpon the crosse and that in this passionful agony agonizing griefe did
it serues to fill vp the measure and make a shew not for disproofe but disgrace of our profession But let vs see his proofe If the Protestants saith he haue any faith hope charitie repentance Church Altar Sacrifice Priest religion Christ then the world was without them for 1000. yeares or rather 1500. But the world was not without them for 1000. or 1500. yeeres Therefore the Protestants haue no faith hope charitie c. B. I deny the consequence of your proposition First because To the propositiō the Protestants may haue some faith hope charitie c. Though they haue not the same that the world then had as the Greeke and Aethiopian Churches haue some faith at this day howsoeuer they differ both from the Protestants and the Papists in diuers points of Religion Secondly because the Protestants professe the same faith and Religion which the Church of Christ alwayes held till it was by little and little supprest and driuen out of sight by Antichrist as it appeares that I may name onely those bookes that are extant in English by Bishop Iewell Doctor Fulke Doctor Whitaker Doctor Bilson Doctor Reynolds the Lord Plessy Doctor Willet and diuers other Protestant diuines Our confession makes nothing for them because if the church were eclipsed for 1000. yeares it was in the world else how could it be eclipsed vnlesse the Sunne and the Moone cease to be in the world when they are in the eclipse The proofe they offer and yet they doe but offer it is insufficient for it followes not that if these few records we haue of the East and West churches make no mention of the Faith and Religion we professe then they were not at all in the world You will say shew vs where they were held nay proue you they were held no where for we now are answeres not replyers and what if it could not be shewed yet we know by the Articles of our Creed that there hath beene alwayes a true church in which say we this Religion that we now professe must of necessitie haue beene held and with vs it is no inconuenience to haue the true church hid this it stands you vpon to disproue which when you attempt to doe by any particular records you shall God willing haue particular answeres yet we are content for auowing the substance of our doctrine to stand to the records of Antiquitie in these parts of the world where we gladly and thankfully acknowledge that the truth of God was for the most part faithfully preserued at the least for the first 500. yeares But the world saith he was not without them for 1000. or 1500. yeares No nor for 1000. minutes nor for one minute Therfore To the Assumption your proofe in this point might haue bin spared especially being no better then it is If the world saith he was without faith for 1000 yeares then Proofe of the Assumption was the Iewes Synagogue more constant for continuance and more ample for largnesse then the Church of Christ But the Iewes Synagogue was not more constant or ample Therefore the world was not with out faith c. for 1000. yeares If your words expresse your meaning in good english then in your Proposition you compare the Church of the Iewes which was before Christ with the church of Christians since christ If your purpose be as it should seeme by your proofe it is to make a comparison betwixt the Iewes Synagogue and the Christian Churches as they haue beene since Christ you should haue saide in steede of was hath bene This consequence proues nothing because no man can To the propositiō be sure that there shal not be aboue 1500. years from hence to the end of the world in which this doctrine we now professe shall continue the Iewes also being conuerted to our Religion or barred of the exercise of their owne superstition and if that should come to passe the Iewish Synagogue could haue no cause of boasting But I will not striue about this consequence Let vs come to the assumption But the Iewes Synagogue saith he hath not bene namely since the comming of Christ more ample or constant We easily graunt you this assumption confessing a perpetuall To the Assumption continuance of Christs Church from the beginning of the world to the end thereof and beleeuing that the number of them which haue professed the truth of Christs Gospell hath bene greater then the multitude of the Iewes since our sauiours comming If the Iewes Synagogue saith he hath bene more constant Proofes of the Assumption and ample then Christi admirable promises are not accomplished I denie your consequence for neither the Prophets nor our sauiour Christ compare this bastard Synagogue of the Iewes with the church of christ but that which was indeed the church of God For this that now is hath neither promise nor allowance from God but that church in comparison whereof the Lord magnifies the church of christ after his comming had many and excellent promises vouchsaft it by God which yet are much inferiour to those that were promised and are performed to the christian church If the comparison must be with the Church of the Iewes before Christ the visible continuance of the Iewish Synagogue since Christ is alledged by you to no purpose Let vs take your proposition in the best sense and answere seuerally to the 3. parts of the consequence If the Iewes Synagogue say you hath bene more ample and constant then Christs admirable promises are not accomplished The promises of God made to the church of Christ in D the Prophets are either of the outward estate thereof as that To the proofe of the Assumption it should be vniuersall for all nations not the Iewes only that it should be maintayned by Kings Queenes c. Or of the inward to which we must referre the peace the glory and the continuance for euer As for the perpetuall visibility and famousnesse in the world there is neither mention nor signification of any such matter in the Prophets and namely not in this place vnlesse perhaps it may be from hence concluded that there shal be more years from the first comming of Christ to his second then there were in the continuance of the Iewish Synagogue vnder the law which I thinke no sober Diuine will affirme howsoeuer it shall fall out in the euent Then saith he Christs assistance hath fayled Our Sauiour Mat. 16. 18. makes no promise of the continuall visibilitie of his Church but onely promiseth that the Diuell shall not preuaile against any true member thereof to breake of his continuance in the state of saluation who hath once with Peter by a true faith confest the Lord Iesus Then Christs presence saith he was absent many hundred yeares before the finall consummation There is no more promised Mat. 28. 20. but that our Sauiour F. wil be with them that beleeue and namely with his ministers till the end
euery point that some of the Fathers endeuour to prooue by Scripture Neither will any Papist that knowes the writings of the Fathers giue them such allowance Nay it is ordinary with them in their controuersies to acknowledge that diuers texts brought by the Fathers in maine points of religioÌ„ are not rightly alleaged Looke what they proue by scriptures that we gladly receiue not because they say it but because the truth of God approueth it But then we make our selues iudges of the Fathers writings If we doe there is more reason that euery man should be made a iudge of a mans writing then any man of Gods But we do not for we desire not to haue any interpretation of Scripture allowed of contrary to the exposition of the Fathers but as I said before where euident reason taken from the Scriptures themselues doth necessarily require it As for our priuate exposition it is nothing else but a perswasion that euery man must haue of the interpretation deliuered according to the course of Scriptures generally and particularly to the context of the place expounded Which to deny Christians is to bring them into slauerie not obedience to depriue them of the spirit of God yea more to spoile them of all vse of reason by which enlightened by the holy Ghost the truth of God may be and is to be discerned Art 3. All Protestants who are ignorant of the Greeke and Latine tongues are Infidels Here is Latine put for Hebrew either by the Printers fault or the Authors craft who perhaps by this sleight would bring their vulgar Latine translation into credit and thereby iustle out the originall Hebrew but we will lay the blame vpon the Printer and so let it passe Papist Whosoeuer relyeth his faith vpon the Ministers credit and A. B. fidelitie hath no faith at all But all those in England who are ignorant of the Greeke and Hebrew tongues relye their faith vpon the Ministers credit Ergo All those in England who are ignorant of the Greeke and Hebrew tongues haue no faith at all The Maior is manifest because they themselues confesse C. Calu. lib. 4. instit cap. 9. § 3. Luther lib. de concil pag. 54. lib de concil par 1. q. D. b Wherein he desireth the lords of the Councill to procure speedily a new translatioÌ„ because that which now is in vse in England is full of errors E c â—n the conference at Hampâ—oÌ„ Court. that euery man may erre and doth erre neither haue they any warrant why the Ministers do not erre since they constantly doe defend that whole generall Councills yea and the vniuersall Catholick church may erre and hath erred The Minor I proue for all such Protestants ground their faith vpon the Bible translated into English the which translation they know not whether it be true or false whether the Minister Tindall for example erred or no either vpon ignorance as b Broughton one of the greatest Linguists among the Precisions affirmeth in an Epistle dedicated to the Lords of the Councel or vpon malice to induce the people to Protestancy and to cause them to leaue the Catholick religion as Gregorie Martin in his discouery most pregnantly proueth c And for that all the olde translations are false and the Geneuians the worst the Ministers are now in moulding a new one the which will haue as great immunitie from falsitie as the former were voide of veritie that is both be subiect to semblable vncertaintie These errors I say they know not and consequently cannot discerne a true translation from a false and therefore must needs relye their faith vpon the sillie Ministers faithlesse fidelitie which conuinceth that they haue no faith at all Protestants Iâ— there be any force in this reason it ouerthrowes Papists A. as well as Protestants because the very same thing may be concluded of them in this sort Whosoeuer builds his faith vpon a mans credit and fidelitie hath no faith at all But euery Papist builds his faith vpon a mans credit Therefore no Papist hath faith The difference betweene my Proposition and his stands onely in one word He disables the Minister in particular I euery man generally and perticularly but I keepe his sense whole and intire For the reason that he giueth in the proofe of his Maior doth shew that therefore ministers are not to be credited because being men they may erre And indeed whatsoeuer imperfection is in any Minister he hath it not as he is a minister but as he is a man and therefore if his proposition be true mine is The assumption needs no other proofe but that first Fathers Councils and Church are men without any speciall priuiledge of not erring 2. that at the least the particuler teachers which tell the Papists that such and such Councills haue allowed these bookes for scripture are men that may erre 3. And indeede what ground hath any learned Papist that there haue bene such Councils but the authority of men 4. Whereupon can any vnlearned Papist relie for the interpretation of the decrees of the Councils being written in Greeke or Latine as all are but the credit of men 5. Nay more then that who can tell what the signification of the Hebrew and Greeke words is euen in the Bible but by the report of men So that it may more truly be saide of the Papists then of the Protestants that they build their faith vpon the credit of men yea the Papists do properly and wholy rely vpon men viz. the Pope and his Priests because they beleeue not by their ministery as Christians but by their authority like Pythagoreans B. But shortely to make an answere to his reason if by relying vpon the ministers credit he meane that they haue no To the Assumption ground to build vpon but that I deny his Assumption For the vnlearned Protestant rests vpon the witnes of Gods spirit which perswadeth him of the generall truth contained in the translation and directeth him to and in the triall of particulars If to the credit of the minister he add the witnes To the PropositioÌ„ of the spirit I say the Proposition is false for he hath true faith that relies on the Credit of the minister being directed by the spirit of God so to do If this seeme strange to any papist let him remember that popish faith requires no lesse reuelation then the beleefe of Protestants for according to their doctrine no man is perswaded of the truth of the scripture either for the text or the interpretation but by the especiall grace of the spirit vsing as they say the argument of the Churches authority to beget faith in the heart only we say the spirit vseth not the authority but the ministry of the Church to perswade withall They affirme that men beleeue because of the Churches authority the spirit directing and inclining them to rest therevpon Our opinion is that the credit of the minister relies on his doctrine They
the church What is this but to trifle I must beleeue that the scripture is scripture because the church tels me so I must beleeue that the report of the church is true because the scripture saith so But for your better satisfactioÌ„ in this point I referre you to my answer in the 2. 5. articles of this former part I cannot well conceaue to what purpose this last clause is added if to proue the Article That the Protestants knowe not what they beleeue it is insufficient They that know not what they are bound to beleeue expresly distinctly explicitly know not what they beleeue For no more is proued by this reason But that they know not euery particular which they are bound to beleeue And if this be a disgrace to Protestants and their profession how shall Papists popery escape without reproach when as there is no rule among theÌ„ to teach what they ought to beleeue expresly distinctly c. And as all Protestants cannot beleeue all the Scripture distinctly explicitely no more can all Papists so beleeue what the Church deliuereth to be beleeued and therefore was their fides implicita deuised Neither is it proued that the Protestants haue no rule to know what is matter of faith what is not because they know not expresly distinctly explicitely what they are bound to beleeue For a man may haue a rule though he know not how to vse it as it also falls out ordinarily with vnlearned Papists in the rule that they follow to this same purpose If the Creed say you be not the limit of beleefe the Protestants haue no rule to know what is matter of faith I thinke the Protestant is yet vnborne that makes the D. Creede the rule of his beleefe further then to acknowledge that whatsoeuer is conteined in the Creed is of necessitie to be beleeued which I trow no Papist will denie But if it were granted that all Protestants do so yet it were not proued that the Protestants haue no rule whereby to know what is matter of faith but that they haue an vnperfect rule To be short who knowes not that the Protestants make the whole Scriptures the rule of their beleefe holding themselues bound in conscience to acknowledge all things conteyned therein to be the most true word of God and that out of the Scriptures there is nothing necessarily to be beleeued for saluation Whereas the Papists disable the written word of God to establish the fancies of mortall men ioyning the vnwritten traditions of I know not whom in equall authoritie with the written word of the Almighty God But the Creed say you is not the limit of faith That the Creed is no perfect rule of our beleefe we are so farre from denying that we make this reason one of the grounds wherevpon we build our perswasion that because of the vnperfectnesse thereof it was not penned by the Apostles whereas if it had bene it would haue bene perfect and Canonicall Scripture such as yet it neuer was acknowledged to be Howsoeuer we willingly graunt that there is nothing in it but sound and agreeable to the word of God in the Scripture So much the more wrong hath this slanderer done vs to charge any of vs with the deniall of any one Article thereof especially since no hereticks were euer charged with the deniall of Scripture because they â—isinterpreted it And yet by this Authors iudgement the Creed is not so bare as here he would faine make it For in the second part of this Article he teacheth vs that by beleeuing the communion of Saints we beleeue first That there are seauen Sacraments Secondly that Christ is bodily present in the Eucharist Thirdly that we must pray to the Saints Fourthly that we must pray for the soules in Purgatory In the fourth he tels vs that by beleeuing the Article of remission of sinnes we beleeue that Baptisme takes away the being of sinne They that deny some Articles of their Creed say you haue E. no rule to know what is matter of faith They that deny all the Articles of their Creed haue indeed no rule supposing that there is no other rule but the Creed but so much of the Creed as they deny not they haue still for a rule to know what is matter of faith But the Protestants say you deny three Articles of their Creed and the Puritants fiue He that makes difference betweene the Protestants and Looke in my answer to the next Article Puritans in matters of faith doth it either ignorantly or maliciously But to the seuerall points They that beleeue say you that to be the Catholicke F. Church which was interrupted 1400. yeeres and is conteyned within the narrow bounds of England deny the Catholicke Church The Article I beleeue the holy Catholick Church doth not teach vs how to know which is the true Church but enioynes vs to beleeue that there is a Catholick church which we gladly acknowledge viz. that there alwayes hath bene is and shall be a holy church of Christ which since his breaking downe of the partition wall is no longer tyed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 place Hierusalem Rome c. but is spred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the face of the whole earth Neither can you 〈◊〉 thinke that the catholicknesse of the Church requirâ—â— continuall being in all places at once for then there 〈◊〉 as any catholick church in the world nor I suppose 〈◊〉 At the least haue you forgotten that according 〈◊〉 our owne doctrine the church shal be hidden in the 〈◊〉 all the time of Antichrists tyranny Then this wil be 〈◊〉 â—incible argument against the church It is not vniuersall 〈◊〉 â—lace therefore it is not the Holy Catholick Church 〈◊〉 the force of your reason is very feeble in the first 〈◊〉 it wherein the strength of it consists But admit we 〈◊〉 deceaued in taking that church to be vniuersall for time and place which is not vniuersal yet as long as we confe◠〈◊〉 there is such a Church we cannot be iustly charged to 〈◊〉 that article of our Creed But the Protestant 〈◊〉 you beleeue that to be the Catholick Church which was 〈◊〉 1400. yeares Therefore they deny the article of beleâ—â—◠〈◊〉 Catholick Church But they do not 〈◊〉 â—peares by the aunswere to the first Article besides â—â—â— Protestants do not hold that the church in England is 〈◊〉 â—atholick church but only that it is a part of the 〈◊〉 church which reaches to all times and places And 〈◊〉 word as I said in the first article we deny not to the 〈◊〉 the necessity of catholicknes but of visiblenes 〈◊〉 our church is not so narrow as you would beare the 〈◊〉 in hand as the Harmony of Confessions will proue to 〈◊〉 man that will but vouchsafe to read it For howsoeuer 〈◊〉 some churches of Germany and vs there be some 〈◊〉 in matters of importance yet neither are they such 〈◊〉 â—rectly ouerthrow the foundation And both the French 〈◊〉 Flemish churches agree with
the communion of saints some way Then belike there be saints in purgatory and the members of the Church militant are Saints But why say you nothing of the saints in heauen Is there no cōmunion betwixt thē those in purgatory yet are they al mēbers of one body I pray you what cōmunion is there betwixt these three kindes of Saints What do the saints in purgatorie in requitall of the triumphant and militant Saints kindnesse What nothing at all Why then what necessity is there to inforce any such duty on our parts towards the Saints in Heauen We as you say do not only pray but offer vp a bodily and spirituall sacrifice for them in purgatorie to God what reason is there then they should not pray to vs as well as wee praye to the Saints triumphant who do but halfe so much for vs and the lesse halfe too As for the places in the Margine no blast be it neuer so great can kindle the fire of purgatory by any heate that 1. Cor. 3. 13. 15. will arise from them the former is concerning the tryall of doctrine by the fire of Gods word Some mens workes shall burne therefore there are some in purgatorie burning Some What workes sayes the Apostle not men If any mans worke ver 15. burne he shall loose his labour but himselfe shall be saued yet as it were by fire Therefore there are some Saints burning in the fire of purgatory but that neither all mens workes are spoken of nor any assay is to be made by purging fire nor these places meant of purgatory it may appeare by these reasons 1. There are not any two places in all the new testament of any one point so full of controuersy for interpretation as these Therefore are they vnfit and vnsufficient to proue so doubtfull a matter as this of purgatory 2. Besides the former of them is wholly Allegoricall Theologia symbolic a non est argum entatiua Foundation Maister-builder Gould siluer Wood Hay Straw and therefore by the rules of disputation in diuinitie altogeather vnmeete for proofe of doctrine in matters of controuersie 3. The fire of Purgatory purges all bad workes this here medles with nothing but false doctrine as it is manifest 1. Because the Apostle speakes of builders onely such as himselfe Apollos vers 6. 2. The reward that shal be receaued vers 14. is to be geuen according to the labour of the Minister vers 8. 3. The People what good workes soeuer they haue are in this place considered but as the building or Husbandrie vers 9. 4. The fire of Purgatory doth not burne the worke but the soule of the worker but this fire shall burne the worke not the workeman vers 1. 3. 14. 15. 5. The fire of Purgatory doth not consume but purifie this fire doth not purifie but consume vers 15. 6. All mens workes must be tryed by this fire vers 12. 13. but not by the fire of Purgatory for that belongs to them onely that haue not made satisfaction for their sinnes or not bin absolued from them by the Sacrament of penance Since it is for the most part agreed vpon that the fier vers 13. doth not signifie Purgatory what reason shall perswade vs that this doth vers 15. The other place hath troubled all the Diuines that euer 1. Cor. 15. 29. writ vpon it both for the Grammar and the sense of it It shal be therefore sufficient for me to answere that till the Popish interpretation be better proued we haue no reason to seeke for the fier of Purgatory in the Baptisme of or for the dead especially since no ancient writer hath so expounded it Neither can it serue Saint Paules purpose being so vnderstood For how can the Resurrection of the body be proued by praying for the soules in Purgatorie But oh the heate of Popish charitie that can abide to let so many soules frie in Purgatory whereas multiplying of Masses would quench the fire and free the poore wretches or at least their holy father the Pope may deliuer as many as pleaseth him by plenarie indulgences and yet these men crie out vpon vs for want of charitie because we will not helpe them by prayer for whom we are sure that all the prayers that can be made are either needlesse or bootelesse Are these th◠reasons that must perswade men of Iudgment c. They that acknowledge not remission of sinnes as an effect in K. the Sacrament of Baptisme denie the Article of remission of sinnes Then it should seeme the meaning of the Article is that we beleeue the remission of sinnes as an effect of Baptisme I maruell how many popish Priests would giue a man this exposition that should aske them the meaning of this Article of the Creed There is more reason to say I beleeue that remission of sinnes is a priuiledge belonging to the holy Catholicke church which our Sauiour Christ hath purchased with his bloud But if the meaning be of Baptisme then we haue found in the Creed that Baptisme is a Sacrament which a little afore was denyed to shew the insufficiencie of the Creed to be the rule and limit of our beleefe He that confesses that Iesus Christ hath paide the ransome for the sinnes of his church by his bloud and procured the pardon of them cannot iustly be charged with denying this article of remission howsoeuer he do erre in iudging of the force and vse of baptisme But the Protestants say you acknowledge not remission of sinnes as an effect of the Sacrament of Baptisme The Protestants acknowledge the same effect in the sacrament of baptisme which the church of God acknowledged and receaued in the sacrament of circumcision that the Patriarches and fathers of Christs church before his comming receaued the forgiuenesse of sinnes no Christian can doubt that either they had it by the effect of the sacrament or that your sacrament hath another effect in substance then theirs had no Papist can proue at least this man hath not proued But shortly to deliuer our opinion we beleeue and professe that euery one who is effectually baptised hath receaued forgiuenesse of all his sinnes originall actuall past to come and if you will mortall and veniall for the guilt and for the punishment for the eternall and temporall punishment But we deny first that al which haue Baptismum Fluminis the baptisme of water haue also Baptismum Flaminis the baptisme of the spirit Secondly that none haue forgiuenesse but they which are baptised Thirdly that euery man that is baptised receaues forgiuenesse of sinnes which may thus appeare because many a man baptised is euerlastingly damned but no man that hath his sinnes forgeuen him is damned If you say they were forgiuen but now are not you destroy the nature of forgiuenesse which depends not vpon any condition to come If it do then can it not be truly affirmed that a man by Baptisme receaues forgiuenesse absolutely of those
ended and heresies abolisht eyther To the principall propositiō by conuincing those that maintaine them of error or by commanding them to forbeare all medling therein The former being the more proper and orderly course may be performed by the Ministers of the word without any infallible interpreter of the Scripture For it is very possible to vnderstand the true meaning thereof in most places and so to prooue it by the Analogie of faith grounded vpon euident Textes and by the examining of the Texts that are in question that a reasonable man shall not be able to with-hould his assent without manifest blindnesse if not wilfulnesse If you aske me what shall become of other places that are very hard I answere that we need not these for the confirming of any point of doctrine as if without them it could not sufficiently be done Further I say that he which mainteines any point that he is not able to auow by any but some such places as this Author doth Purgatorie is no way to be allowed or borne with The other meanes of enioyning silence and quietnesse is partly in the censures of the Church but principally in the authoritie of the Magistrate whom God hath made Soueraigne gouernour for the outward peace and prosperitie of his church This in order must follow the former yet so as that if the Magistrate commaund before conuincing he must be obeyed by forbearance of any further proceedings vnlesse the charge be directly contrary to the commandement of God in which case we must answer with the Apostles Whether it be right in the sight of God Act. 4. 18. 5. 40. to obey you rather then God iudge you But the Protestants saith he admit the sole Scripture as Principall assumptiō vmpere c. What course is to be held for the interpretation of Scripture To the principall assumptiō I haue partly shewed already in the 2. and 3. and in this 5. article and it shall appeare more fully in the particular examining of this discourse according as it is set downe They saith he that certainely beleeue the Church cannot Proofe of the principall Proposition erre haue meanes to settle themselues in vnity of beleefe to end controuersies and abolish heresies and contrariwise they that do not beleeue it haue none When it is proued that the Church cannot erre then the To the proofe of the principall proposition proposition shal be granted but till then it deserues no allowance and if it be granted yet what hereticall church may not haue the same quietnesse vpon the same perswasion Indeed one of the three points euen that which the Papists stand most vpon viz. their outward quiet estate may in part ensue vpon this beleefe though it be most erroneous For this perswasion that the Church cannot erre is sufficient to stay all controuersies when the Church hath shewed her opinion of them And yet it is with them only sufficient that acknowledge this false priuiledge of the church therfore it follows but in part because you must first perswade those that contend of the truth of this assertion ere you cā worke by it vpon their consciences So that although this meanes supposing the truth of it be in it selfe effectuall yet it cānot breed this effect in all that at any time contend about religion but in those only that beleeue it For example put case that some of the Church being perswaded that the Church hath not authoritie to rob the people of the Cup should call this priuiledge of erring into question How will your Church take vp this controuersie will shee vrge the conclusion I cannot erre or will shee procure her Bishops Abbots Cardinals c. to auouch asmuch of her What is this but Aske my fellowe if I bee a theefe Yes it is somewhat worse for it is all one as if he that is arraigned for fellony should say I tell you I am not a theefe were he not worthy to be acquited trow you And such would your proofe be in this question But if the Church in this case could bring out a Charter and plead that for this priuiledge her aduersaries must needs be conuerted or at least might be confounded and so perhaps the Controuersie ended Yet not by the Churches but by the scriptures authoritie which as I must hereafter shew is the meanes that God hath appointed for that purpose but it may perhaps be 1. Proofe that the Church can not erre Proposition To that proposition proued that the Church cānot erre Let vs heare the reasons If they that will not heare the Church must be accounted as Ethnicks and Publicans the Church cannot erre for if the Church could erre then were there no reason why hee that would not heare her should be so accounted of When the Pope sendes his Legats with pardons a begging about the Countrie commaunding them to preach to the people of the vertue efficacie of those indulgences Are they not as Ethnickes or Publicans or worse that shall refuse to heare their sermons and may I herevpon reasonably conclude that therefore they that preach them cannot erre Why shall I not say the like of any Popish Priest moncke or fryer being authorised by the Church of Rome to preach who can refuse to heare them and not be guiltie of contempt against your Church Apostolicke yet I hope these may erre Wherevpon I conclude that therefore your proposion is false if they that will not heare the Church must be accounted as Ethnicks the Church cannot erre But he that will not heare the Church is to be counted as an Assumptiō Ethnick What simplie if he do not heare the church nay rather To the assumption if in that case set downe by our sauiour he do not heare her Now the case is this If one brother or christian sinne against another he that is offended must rebuke the other in priuate betwixt them alone 2. If this preuaile not with him he must the second time rebuke him and that before one or two witnesses 3. If this will not serue he must complaine of him to the Gouernours of the Church 4. If their censure will do no good with him he is to be accounted no mēber of the church after excommunication Let vs now draw an argument from this place and see what it makes for the churches infinite authority He that being thus proceeded withall obeyes not the iust censure of the Gouernours of the church to the confessing of his sinne and satisfying of his brother the congregation is to be accounted an Ethnicke Therefore whatsoeuer the church sayes must be beleeued or therefore the Church cannot erre Who sees not the weaknesse of this reason He that obeys not the church in a iust censure is no longer any member of the Church Therefore he that simply in al things obeies her not acknowledging that she cannot erre is an Infidell Here it would be further considered that by the
the Pope subiect to the Councills Pisa Constance and Basill What to that of Florence vnder Charlemaigne which condemned worshipping of Images and the second Councill of Nice for allowing it Bellarmine saies they are not simply necessary and that more heresies haue bene abolisht without them then by them Nazianzen wholy mislikt them the Councill of Trent and that of Nice ended not the Controuersies Now if neither the Church haue it in generall nor especially Generall Councills how should the Pastors and ancient Fathers come by it For that which is added of their teaching on truth with ioynt consent is but to bleare the eyes of the ignorant Can there bee more ioynt consent then in generall Councills may they erre when they seeke the truth with graue and serious aduise in great multitudes and can they not be deceaued when they enquire after it priuately in their seuerall studies who knowes not that the error of some one man renowned for learning and Godlines drawes whole Churches after it many times especially since custome like a tyrant rules ouer the witts and wills euen of learned men who oft-times thinke it more discretion to retaine a small error with quietnes then to restore the truth with great trouble and hazard But where shall a man finde this ioynt consent you imagine I dare bee bould to say in very few points of controuersie at this day if in any Yet say it were eaâ—ilie to be found in the writinges that now are extant Alas what a small number of bookes haue wee in respect of those that haue bin written What gappes are there in the course of succession What maymes in often copying out bookes by writing What mistaking in translations many greeke copies being lost and the latine translation of them onely remaining And who can tell what Indices Purgatoriâ— haue bene deuised enioyned before this last assemblie of Trent especially since Canons haue bene foisted into ancient Councills by Popes of Rome for the establishing of their lawlesse tyranny Therefore though we refuse not to make triall of our doctrine by the Fathers writings namely those that are indeed auntient in the first 600. yeeres before the kingdome of Anthichrist Yet we receaue them as witnesses of the truth not Iudges and vse them as we vse old Coines not for an assay to trye by them the purenes of metâ—all but for a standard to shew what moneis were currant in seuerall ages and places Where they speake according to Scripture we acknowledge the good graces of God in them to their deserued Commendation Where they write of themselues we obserue examples of mans frailety and ignorance to which we make no doubt but all writers since the Apostles and except them haue bin are and shal be subiect To what tryall then shall we be take our cause To what else but to the Scriptures of God Would a man thinke there should be any professed Christian found that would mislike of this course And yet our Papistes doe They cannot abide to heare that the sole Scripture should be vmpere and iudge in matters of controuersie Belike they haue found a better Euen the Pope to whome they attribute more whatsoeuer they talke of the Church Councills and Fathers then to all three together saue that by Church perhaps they meane the Pope Whom they make the head and husband of it being not afraide blasphemously to write that all the names that are giuen to Christ as he is ouer the Church belong to the Pope as well as to Christ though at the second hand as beeing Christs or rather as they say Gods vicar Perhaps they will say as good do so as remit all to euery mans priuat spirit and singular exposition Surely much about one yet by this later it may come to passe that though many erre yet many also may hold the truth Whereas by the former if one bee deceaued all must lie in ignorance and error since no man may so much as say vnto him why dâ—st thou so But that we permit not the interpretation of scripture to euery mans priuate fancy I shewed in handling the 2. Article Yet this inconuenience lyes vpon vs that we can not possiblie winde our selues out of the labirinth of so many controuersies wherewith wee are now inueigled and intricated When we lacke helpe we will send for their Pope or if neede bee make one of our owne As yet things are not in so desperat an estate that we should be enforced to seeke any such remedie For the Irreconciliable iarres betwixt vs are neither as he slanders vs in any essentiall point of faith nor such as hinder vs from agreeing in that doctrine which is according to the word of God established amongst vs and published in the Booke of Articles 1562. That the Protestants and the Puritans as the Papists B. terme them differ in essentiall points of faith he vndertakes to proue by this reason They that differ about the Kings supremacie the Bishops authoritie the obseruation of feasts c. differ in essentiall points of faith But the Protestants and Puritans differ in these Therefore they differ in essentiall points of faith If by essentiall points of faith all matters of truth in diuinitie be signified we graunt his conclusion adding further that the church was neuer yet so happy as to be without difference of opinions amongst diuines in any one age since the beginning of christian Religion If he meane by these words such things as are necessarilie to be beleeued to saluation or to the profession of christianitie I deny his Proposition in all or the most part of it as in handling the particulars it shall appeare That the Protestants hold the kings supremacie to be an essentiall point of faith so that he which doubteth of it cannot be either in truth or in profession a christian neither the confession of our church no the writings of any of our diuines prooue Indeed seditious Papists would beare the world in hand that their traiterous Priests and Iesuits haue beene executed for religion and not for treason in denying the Kings supremacie but neither Protestant nor Puritan euer yet beleeued them Both which doe constantly and ioyntly auowe that although it be not a heresie of so high a nature yet it is a wicked error against the truth of Gods word and an opinion not to be tollerated in any Christian or ciuill state There is no dissent betwixt the Protestant and the Puritan about the Kings supremacie but the difference that is ariseth from the diuers conceit each part hath of the things by his Maiestie enioyned as it shall appeare in due place Caluin doth not so much as charge Henrie the eight with assuming the Soueraignety he speakes of but onely layes the fault vpon certaine men who in an vnconsiderate zeale as he saith ascribed such a power to him as by the word of God is not warrantable Wherein these two points made him mislike the matter First that he was called
the subscription required by statute Neither do the Puritans deny that Baptisme washeth away all sinnes as a Sacrament and seales vp the forgiuenesse thereof Neither do the protestants beleeue any other thing of it or ascribe any other vertue to it The Puritanes do not Condemne the communion booke as irreligious but acknowledge it lawfull to bee vsed and both haue vsed it heretofore and are readie to vse it againe howsoeuer they desire to be forborne in the vse of some things in it which to them seeme vnwarrantable They entreate to be spared for the Crosse in Baptisme And whereas diuers of late haue yeelded to it the ground of their yeelding is that it is no significant Ceremonie but onely a signe betwixt man and man and so indifferent as they thinke That there are some differences betwixt vs we deny not nor that this is one of them concerning the signe in Confirmation But this is farre from being an essentiall point of faith And so is this of vsing Vestiments Musicke c. wherein also there are diuers opinions on either side but I thinke there is no man condemns all these as will worship and superstitious Yea there are some called Puritans that take none of them all to be either will worship or superstitious and yet they hold them vnlawfull In a word there is not any difference to my knowledge betwixt vs which may either depriue vs of saluation by the death of Christ or barre vs from lyuing brotherly and christianly as members of one and the same Church And thus wee haue heard the strong arguments of this popish replyer Who it should seeme not resting much vpon his owne proofe in the end of this first parte lookes to heare some reasons from vs whereby we may approue our selues to be the true Church But that hath bin often donne by our Diuines so far as we professe of our selues For none of vs euer vndertooke to proue that we are the true Church as the Papists dreame of the Church Wee are by the blessing and grace of God a part or member of the true Church of Christ not the whole church Yea we acknowledge that diuers particular churches may refuse communion with vs. and yet both they and we remaine members of the same true church though not without some fault either on both sides or at least the one But the papists so take to themselues the name of the church that they condemne all for schismatickes yea for Heretikes that acknowledge not themselues to be members of the catholicke Romish church in subiection to the Pope of Rome The sum of our proofe is that we professe that religion which our sauiour Christ hath commended vnto vs in the scriptures of which it should seeme this man was not ignorant For in this very place he excepts against this reason because it is no other then that which all heretikes wil bring to condemne the church of Christ This answere is insufficient vnlesse we shall grant that our sauiour brings no good Mat. 4. 4. 7. reason against the Diuill in alledging scripture because Sathan himselfe in his temptation replies against him by scripture Who knowes not that in all controuersies reasons must be drawen from the arts of which the controuersie is as for example what Lawyer will offer to defend a bad cause but he will quote lawe for his purpose and shall this either bar him that pleads against him from alleging his bookes or make his plea of no force nay rather any man of meane discretion will readily distinguish and say the one makes a shew of law but the other hath law indeed so is it in these points of controuersie The Papists and other heretikes pretend that the scriptures make for them but this may not preiudice the authority thereof in deciding matters of controuersie neither shall any true christian need to be ashamed of seeking to ground his faith vpon the scriptures because Heretikes abuse them to their wicked purposes no more then our sauiour was to alleage them though the Diuill had drawen them to abett his horrible temptation Nay if the Papists were not too willfull they would in dyuers points acknowledge the voice of God in scriptures it being plaine as these allegations of our Sauiour Christ And if they had bin then in the Diuils steed they would not haue taken those places for satisfaction but would haue come vpon our sauiour with a second reply of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and haue charged him with falsifying the text for putting in Onely Therefore we acknowledge this to be our onely hould that by the Scriptures we are proued to be the Church of God Let the Arrians comtemne Councills We beleeue and professe that they are excellent meanes allowed by God for maintaining and searching out the truth only we refuse to match them in Authoritie and accompt with the vnfallible truth of the almighty God Will any absurd and base flatterer affirme that he despises Magistracy and Princes who denyes that they haue an absolute and infinite Authoritie But I thinke it would shrewdly trouble you to proue that the Arrians contemned Councills Sure it is not likely since themselues within the compasse of 30. yeares held 10. Councills at the least for the establishing of their wicked heresie True it is that they reiected the councill of Nice wherein their heresie was iustly and holyly condemned but that therefore they regarded not Councills at all it is not proued But consider I pray you with what conscience or rather with what malice you write The Arrians are blamed by you for not regarding Councils we are charged to contemne them Where as you know in your owne conscience that we receaue both that Councill which the Arrians refused and all the other generall and particuler councills saue those that as we are perswaded conteyne in them apparaunt falshood and impietie If it bee a fault not to receaue all who shall excuse you Papists that haue wholly reiected seauen generall Councills held at Antioch Millaine Ariminum Ephesus the second two at Constantinople against Images and one at Pisa and in part sixe other at Sardis at Syrmium at Constantinople in Trâ—llo at Frankeford at Constance at Basill how iustly all or some of these are reiected I dispute not once it is euident they are reiected neither haue we any reason to regard your shifting defences concerning the Popes authority in whom for sooth it lies to allow or disallowe of Councils For this is but to beg the question Therefore to make short we willingly and reuerently embrace all Councils and all Canons and articles of all Councills so far forth as they agree with the word of God not because of their authority but by reason of the truth of those things which according to the scriptures is in them declared commended to all christians Neither do we hereby challenge to our selues the true interpretation of scriptures as if it were appropriated
aske be graunted it helpes you nothing for what if euerlasting life be giuen for workes how often must you be told that working and deseruing are not all one We deny not that God will reward euery least good worke of any of his children but we cannot graunt that eyther the reward he will giue is euerlasting life or that any workes of his children deserue that reward which he will giue I doubt not which is the second thing I note in his similitude but you Papists your selues would thinke it extreame presumption for any subiect to claime as of merit that 1000. pound a yeare which was promised by the Prince for good seruice in Ireland especially if it may be truely obiected against such claime that though some fewe actions haue bene valiantly performed in part yet both in the best there hath beene defect and for one thing well done twentie haue beene left vndone How then shall any man proudly vaunt of merit that knowes what Gods law requires and what his owne deserts are It is the infinite goodnesse of God our father in Iesus Christ that he doth accept of our vnperfect obedience crowne it with glory for all the imperfections thereof But euerlasting life saith he is called wages and giuen as wages As if we denied that good workes shall receaue reward and need euery foote put you in minde of the difference of workes and merites But indeed euerlasting life or the kingdome of heauen is neuer I thinke called wages in Scripture There is a reward promised by God viz. an increase of glory which shal be imparted to the faithfull proportionably to the measure of grace and vse thereof in this life according to workes But the kingdome of heauen is an inheritance belonging to all the faithfull as members of Iesus Christ their head whose first and properly it is This I proued a little before and therefore will now onely set it out more plainely by a similitude or likenesse The sonne and heire of a King hath interest in the kingdome by right of inheritance the Kings moâ—eables may eyther in his life time by guift or by legacie after his decease be disposed of to whom he please The King to incite his sonne to valure and loue of vertue promiseth him that he will giue him some speciall reward for euery valiant exploit or attempt with true martiall discretion and resolution This reward is to be raised out of his moueables giuen indeed for workes but not to be claimed vpon desert in regard of some iust exception which the King his father may take against all such his enterprises and atchiuements Such is our estate in matters of euerlasting life by resting vpon Iesus Christ to be saued by him we become members of his mysticall body sonnes of God his father and ours by him heires of euerlasting life which is his inheritance and ours as members of him God our Father hath made promise to vs being now sonnes and heires and hauing thereby interest in his kingdome of reward of all things that we shall valourously atchieue or resolutely vndertake for the glorifying of his name according to his will This promise conueyes not to vs any title to the kingdome for that is ours already euen in possession by Christ but incourageth 1. Cor. 15. 58. vs to Christian obedience to be stedfast vnmoueable aboundant alwayes in the worke of the Lord for as much as we know that our labour is not in vaine in the Lord. And yet this is not our onely or greatest motiue to good workes For that ariseth from our Child-like affection to so kind and bountifull a father Which if the Papists haue not let them not therfore deny that there is any such thing like the mole that will not beleeue that any beast can see because she her selfe is blind What if they like hirelings will doe nothing but for wages The sonnes of God in this life take as great pleasure in their present obedience as in their future reward which notwithstanding they most assuredly looke for according to his promise that can not faile euer God our Father To whome with the sonne and Holy Ghost bee all obedience thanks and glory from this time for euer and euer Amen A Conclusion vnto his most speciall friend Maister F. T. THus my deare friend I haue sett downe those reasons which induced me to receaue the Catholick faith and for which I continue therein Consider I pray you whether they be not so substantiall and waightie as any wise man might accept and allow of or at least might cause a reasonable doubt of religion arise in his minde concerning the Protestants faith for if these bee true as questionlesse they are most true what man of iudgment will hazard his soule vpon a religion pestered with so many notorious absurdities and palpable errors Eternall damnation is a matter of no small moment when the soule is once plunged into those flames it is past recouery farre he â—eapes and ill he lights that iumpeth into hell and questionles without true faith you shall neuer come to Heauen Vrge your Ministers therefore to satisfie your conscience in answering these articles Will them to reply with maturitie and cause them answere distinctly and as they thinke in their consciences For I feare they will rather do it for a forme to seeme to say some thing then they wil be iudged ignorant by silence in saying nothing And with this I rest at your deuotion expecting what your newe Euangelists can answere to these iust accusations of their erroneous religion From my chamber in Antwerpe this first of March your louing freind H. T. FINIS As much of this post-script as hath any need of answere is touched in my Preface I will therefore loose no more time in examining such discourses The abridgement of the former answer ART 1. Papist THe Protestants haue no faith nor Religion Protestant The question is whether the Protestants by their doctrine professe any faith or religion Papist If the Protestants haue any faith charity repentance Iustification church altar sacrifice priest religion Christ then the world was without them for fifteene hundred yeeres But the world was not without them for 1500. yeares Therefore the protestants haue no faith no hope no charity no repentance no iustification no church no altar no sacrifice no priest no religion no Christ. Protestant I deny the consequence of your proposition neither doe we confesse any such eclipse of our Church for a thousand yeares yet the same being eclipsed ceases not thereby to be in the world but rather is proued to be neither can you proue any such thing as you brag of Trie when you will ART 2. Papist The learned Protestants are Infidels Whosoeuer buildeth his faith vpon his owne priuate singular exposition of Scripture is an Infidell But all Protestants in England do build their faith vpon their owne priuate exposition of Scripture Ergo all the Protestants of England are
â—s in all substantiall points 〈◊〉 doctrine They that beleeue not 〈◊〉 that Christ hath instituted G. seauen sacraments do some 〈◊〉 the communion of saints When it is proued that there were 〈◊〉 instituted by Christ I will grant this propo◠〈◊〉 then any man may make as good a reason of 〈◊〉 700. or 7000. By true and reall presence which no Protestant euer denyed you meane the bodily and carnall presence which besides the Papists no man euer confest Therefore to this Argument the former answere sufficeth and so to both the other But for the further confirmation of this bodily presence because it is the Papists darling there is some shew of proofe added Being many we are one bread and body all that participate 1. Cor. â—â— 17. of one body as themselues in the Rhemish Testament translate the text by which he would perswade the simple that they that beleeue not the bodily presence of Christ in the Sacrament deny that the faithfull are one body But first it is to be obserued that the Apostle doth not say They are made one body by participating but That they which participate are one body Secondly we must vnderstand that the faithfull are not one body Cârnally but Spiritually To the which it is sufficient that Christ be Spiritually receaued and therefore the Apostle calles it Bread Thirdly who knowes not that all that can receaue any benefit by the Sacrament of our Sauiour Christs body and bloud are before members of his mysticall body Els all they that dye before they receaue that Sacrament are out of Christs body and so vncapable of saluation And if this be an effect of that Sacrament since it is of it selfe alwaies alike effectuall it must needes be that euery time we receaue it we are made one body with Christ yea although we haue not committed any deadly sinne since the last receauing of it But this is absurd that he that is the member of Christ already should now by receauing become the member of Christ Indeed he may be coÌ„firmed strengthned for his better continuance in Christs body which grace al that worthily receiue the sacrament obtaine of God euery one in their measure but it is vnpossible that he should euery time of receauing be made a member of Christs spiritual body being already one when he comes to receaue They say you that deny the Church militant and triumphant H. by exclaiming against inuocation of Saints and praiers for the soules in purgatory deny the article of beleeuing the communion of saints But the Protestants deny the Communion of the Church militant and triumphant by exclaiming against inuocation of saints and prayers for the soules in purgatory Ergo they deny the communion of saints If the communion of saints beleeued in the Creed belong to the catholicke Church in the same Creed How can it implie any fellowship with those that are departed whether they be in heauen or in purgatory For by the catholicke Church our papists vnderstand not the church triumphant but militant only for they hold that the catholick church mentioned in the Creed must alwaies be visible and famous And what an vnworthy wrong is it to Christ and his saints in Heauen for any man to imagine that the Reprobate in earth of whom there is no small store in the outward congregations do communicate with the elect departed in the priuiledges which Christ hath purchased by his precious bloud for his owne members But the best is malice it selfe dare not charge vs with simple denying all communion betwixt the Saints in Heauen and them in earth but only with the deniall of it in some few points One whereof viz. Inuocation of saints this papist would proue by scripture The Gen. 48. 16. Apoc. 1. 4. Aagell that deliuered me from all euills blesse these children Grace and peace from him that is was and that is to come and from the seauen spirits which are in the sight of his throne Iacob and Iohn pray that we may be protected blessed of God by the ministery of the Angells therefore the communion of Saints signifieth that the Saints in Heauen pray for vs and we must pray to them Need I to write one word in answere to this reason but I am desirous that all men should see the weakenesse of this proofe First it is doubted by very good writers ancient and latter whether Iacob meane Christ or some speciall Angell whether the seauen spirits signifie the holy Ghost or the armies of Angells Secondly no Papist that euer I read confounds Angells with Saints or interprets the communion of saints by the ministery of Angells Thirdly these consequences are feeble first The Angells are ministring spirits Therefore the saints departed pray for vs. secondly The Angells protect vs and are ministers of Grace and peace from God to vs therefore by mediation they obtaine our requests Thirdly what streÌ„gth is there in this conclusioÌ„ The Angells pray for vs Therfore we are bound to glorifie theÌ„ by praying to them that is to disâ—onour God by honouring them For I demaund whether we may at any time pray to God without their mediation or noe If we may not then the Lords prayer is taught vs in vaine because that cannot belong to any Angel or saint If we may I aske why not at one time as wel as at another Why not in one matter as wel as in an other Vrge not your carnall comparison betwixt God and earthly Princes for both it is as forcible for one time and matter as another and thereby you rob God of the glory and thankes he should receaue of vs for the granting of our requests and vs of the comfort we might haue by the feeling perswasion of Gods loue in hearing our praiers and satisfiing our desires If the Prince receaue my petition at my owne hands and yeeld vnto it I haue reason to perswade my selfe of his loue to mee and to giue all thankes to him for his princely bounty If any besides my selfe commend my suite to him and it be obtained I am perhaps neuer a whit beholding to him because it may be he knows not me nor cares what I am but only doth some fauorite of his owne that kindnesse Now let any reasonable man iudge whether all the poore recompence I can make all the thankfulnesse I can shew be not due to the partie by whose graciousnesse with the Prince I attayned to that I sought for so that if I content him in some measure though I neuer honour nor loue the Prince one iot the more yet I do as much as iustly can be required of me Yea if I would enforce my selfe to be thankfull to the Prince both he might disdayne my presumption and he that preferred my suite be offended with my vnthankfulnesse that would not giue him all the thanks that procured all the fauour They say you that deny the communion of the church militant and the soules in purgatory deny