Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
signe but in Christ whom they confessed by that signe Neither was any of them euer heard to say Aue cruxspes vnie◠Hatle ô crosse our onely hope As touching the match of equalitie that you make betweene the signe of the Crosse and the Crucifixe you may well thinke that the ancient church being so long without the image of the crucifixe namely aboue 600. yeares and yet so early vsing Sexta Synod Can 82. the signe of the Crosse did acknowledge no small difference betweene the one and the other A transient signe to signifie in gesture that which the word signifieth in speech and that onely for meanes of confession differeth much from an image made to represent the Sonne of God whose Godhead no colours nor proportion can expresse whose Manhood is not the whole of his person whose nature person and suffering is sufficiently yea abundantly described in the Scriptures for all men to see and heare neither is it possible for any art to make that visible in the image of the crucifixe which is to be knowne beleeued remembred of Christ and his sufferings according to the description of his word To leaue the Scriptures follow a crucifixe is to go from the Sunne in the firmament to the signe of the sunne painted in a table To adde to the word the helpe of the crucifix is to accuse the infufficiencie of the word The signe of the Crosse had no such vse in the beginning neither hath now with vs and therefore differeth largely from the signe of the crucifixe But it is worth the marking how barely you bring into comparison first the vse of the signe of the Crosse among vs and the vse thereof in poperie Do we teach to trust in that signe Do we pray to it do we worship it do we blesse with it do we fence arme our selues with it these are your Idolatries which you slily passe ouer as if there were a like vse of the signe of the Crosse with vs and with you Papists Secondly the signe of the Crosse and the image of the crucifixe as if you did only make the image of the crucifixe historically and not to worship it When we commit idolatrie with the signe of the Crosse then compare our vse thereof with your idolatries to the image of the crucisixe Lastly remember heere also that which I spake of the former The signe of the Crosse is only an indifferent externall rite among vs It is neither principle nor second nor third nor fourth nor any point of our Religion PAPIST Fourthly in Baptisme they vse Godfathers and abrenuntiation Why not also other ceremonies namely holy Oile and Exorcisme Holy oyle Exorcisme Reade the Scriptures and as little there is for the first as the last Aske the auncient Fathers and as much is found for the last as for the first PROTESTANT In the administration of the holy Sacraments the neerer we come to the institution of Christ the more chast and incorrupt we esteeme the administration of them to be and therefore haue taken that libertie which the Church of God euer vsed no further to follow the example of former times in matter of ceremone then we do euidently see to serue for edification By which rule no doubt sundrie ceremonies of auncient time vsed afterward grew out of vse as namely in Baptisme the tasting of milke and honie with certaine other ceremonies either for come linesse or instruction taken vp in the primitiue Church which afterwards were layd downe againe as the times and growth of the Church fawe most conuenient As touching Godfathers and abrenuntiation for that the one hath a good vse as well to prouide that only the children of beleeuing parents be brought to Baptisme as also to commit the care of the infants education to men for godlinesse and sound faith approued and the other expresseth the couenant on the behalfe of the infant baptized wherewith he standeth charged the mention whereof serueth as well to call to the mindes of others before baptized what they owe to God by the couenant betweene God and them sealed in baptisme as also to enter the obligation of the infants faith and obedience whereunto as soone as his yeares admit he must know himselfe to be bound by the law of his baptisme Therfore our Church of a care that all things may be done orderly and to edification and that the end of Baptisme may be attained hath vpon good reason continued these two When you shall be able to shew vnto vs as serious profitable vse of your Exorcisme and Oyle then may we enter into consulation whether in so lawfull libertie to alter or refuse vnnecessarie ccremonies it were not much better to reason you haue so superstitiously profaned them besides the slender vse to leaue them onely to you then after so long a farewell to giue them new entertainement specially Scripture saying nothing for them and the auncient Fathers although they testifie of the vse of these as also some others by you neglected yet in matter of ceremonie allow freedome to euery Church in euery time These also are no principles of our Religion PAPIST Fiftly the booke alloweth the vse of the Surplice in their Seruice and Sacramonts vvhy then may not Copes Vestiments and Copes Vestiments such like be admitted also For no more can they shew for the one then vve for the other PROTESTANT Multitude of needlesse ceremonies is alwayes a burthen and therefore a bondage both in the yoke of obseruation and also in the taile of superstition whereunto through blindnesse and carnall deuotion men commonly fall And therefore our church though it retaine the Surplice as most remote both in the originall and perpetuall vse from your superstition and that onely for comelinesse without putting any religion in it yet both is and ought to be sparing in affecting the multitude of your theatricall or stage-like vestiments which would rather disguise then a dorne the Church of Christ And herein our church hath followed the rule of Scripture which albeit of loue and for peace it teacheth to suffer some things not necessary yet streightly warneth the church not to be intaugled againe in the yoke of boudage And so there is Scripture against many and those Gal. 5. 1. before refused more then against one and that neuer out of vse And heere againe I may not forget still to put you in mind that far it is from our church to esteeme the surplice or any vse thereof as a principle or any part of our religion PAPIST Sixtly in the Collect vpon Michaelmas day they confesse that the Angels defend and protect our life how then can they denie Praying to Saints that they know our necessities and praiers and so no reason can they alleage why we may not pray to them as well as we do to our mortall brethren PROTESTANT Protect is not in the Collect but only succour and defend For we yeeld only a ministerie to
Sess 3. cap. 1. Can. 1. body is in the sacrament Circūscriptiuè But your Trent Councell saith that the body of Christ is conteined in the sacrament of the Eucharist Wherfore although Luther had an opinion of a Real presence by himself which he could not tell how to expresse nor would haue any disputation about the maner yet in as much as he was farre from allowing your Popish charme whereby you worke your monstrous Transubstantiation nor helde any carnall eating neuer alleage Martin Luthers Real presence to giue countenance to your carnall presence The Apologie may well acknowledge him an excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world and yet not allow of his error in any thing neither will we say that euery wrong beliefe euen in matter of the sacrament bringeth damnation to a godly man otherwise holding the foundation And lastly Martine Luthers priuate opinion is no principle of our religion as you very well know PAPIST These things being so with what conscience can the Protestants iustlie exclaime against vs for defending a speciall confession of our sinnes absolution of the Priest the vse of Images and the picture of Christ crucified the holie ceremonies of oile and exorcisme copes and holie vestiments that Angels know our praiers and may be praied vnto that Christs soule descended into hell for the deliuerie of the holy Fathers that died before his sacred Passion the Real presence of Christ in the sacrament when as all these points either in expresse termes or by necessarie consequence be gathered out of the grounds of their owne Religion PROTESTANT These things being so that no one of the points mentioned is any principle of our Religion nor in any one of the points which we acknowledge do we agree with the Papists and the last of the seauen is none of ours with what conscience could a Papist go about to raise a reason for Popish idolatrie out of the principles of our religion in the end neither build vpon any principle of our Religion nor proue any agreement betweene Popish confession and absolution and that which the Church of England vseth betweene the signe of the Crosse as it is vsed in the Church of England and Popish Images betweene Godfathers and Abrenunciation and popish oile and exorcisme as now they are betweene the decencie of the Surples and the superstition of Popish vestemints betweene the doctrine of some Protestants touching the article of descending into hel Popish Limbus no nor yet betweene Martin Luthers Real presence and Popish carnal presence wheras no one of these Popish points can either in expresse terms or by any necessary cōsequēce be gathered either out of any principle orany practise or ceremonie in our religion as hath been shewed PAPIST The Fourth reason That is the true Church which hath the scriptures on their side and expoundeth them in that sense and meaning which was intended by the holie Ghost and none can deny but al this is verified of the Catholike Church and not of the Protestant as a fewe plaine arguments shall make manifest First therefore no reason in the world can the Protestants aleage to proue that the scriptures be theirs or to iustifie their interpretation which we cannot bring also for vs. For let them pretend conference of places recourse to the fountaines of the Greeker Hebrue or what else they will all that we can say for our selues and with a◠great probability as they and so in any iudgmet not palpablypartial we nothing inferior On the cōtoary we to maintaine our expositiō beside all other helps cite the consent of ancient Fathers the cōmon practise of Gods Church the decrees of generall Councels none of which they will stand to and therefore in all equity and reason wee passing much superiour can we then lacke the true sense of scripture that haue all these to backe our interpretation specially that of Gods Church in generall councels or can the Protestants haue it that be destitute of all these as their deniall of them doth euidentlie proue and conuince PROTESTANT This forcible Reasoner seemeth now as if he would come to vs and ioyne issue with vs to be tryed by the Scriptures whether the Popish Church or our Church be the true Church But surely if there be no more force in his reason then plainenes in his dealing this reason wil be like his fellowes and so proue neither forcible nor plaine For when the reckoning of his reason is cast vp he calleth backe the triall of the true Church from the scriptures to his pretended Fathers and Councels and againe from them to Gods Church that is in his meaning the Popish Church from whence all vseth to be deuolued to the Pope And so in conclusion the question being whether the Popish Church be the true Church we must be tried by the Pope who were much to blame if he would not say that his owne Church is the true Church for euen theeues will say that they are honest men Your owne Cannon law hath prouided that in all matters of faith all men yea euen all Bishops must referre themselues to the Pope Quoties c. As often as anie matter Caus 24. q. 1 of faith is debated I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops ought to referre the matter to none but to Peter that is to the authoritie of his name and honour What is the authority of Peters name and honour but the Pope and therefore the Glosse there setteth downe in the margent It is the Popes office to determine a question moued about faith And Thomas Aquinas It belongeth to faith to sticke to the Popes determination Opuse con error Graec. it matters of faith yea and in those things also that belong to good manners If then in matter of faith or maners we cannot agree vpō sense of scripture the Pope must strike the stroke which he will be sure shall not hurt himselfe So very fitly agreeth vnto you that which Athanasius speaketh against Orat. 1. con Arria◠the Arrians They presume to determine of faith and being themselues guiltie and obnoxious to indgment like vnto Caiaphas they vsurpe the office of indging These are the men that will proue their Church to be the true Church by hauing the scriptures on their side but they will be the interpretors of scriptures by the mouth of their Pope Well go too though vnder the bare pretence of scriptures you meane to bring in the Pope yet let vs see how you proue that the popish Church which you falsly call the Catholike Church hath the scriptures on her side and expoundeth them by the sense intended by the holy Ghost Your first argument is onely a vaine brag Forsooth you can bring any reason for your expositiōs that the Protestāts can bring for theirs as conference of places recourse to the fountaines and what else they will and with as great probabilitie as they Why then do you not vse to follow
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
it may appeare that from the beginning vnto the present time wherein this noueltie sprang vp this point of originall sinne hath beene so constantlie kept within the faith of the church c. Howbeit the most cleare and full authoritie of this opinion is eminent in the holie Canonicall bookes Likewise ad Bonifac. cont duas epist Pelag. Lib. 4. cap. 8. I thinke it pertaineth to our charge not onclie to bring the holie Canonicall Scriptures witnesses against them which alreadie wee haue sufficientlie done but also out of the bookes of holis men who haue handled them before vs with famous commendation great glorie to bring some documetns or euidences not for that the authoritie of anie disputer is equalled by vs to the Canonicall bookes but to admonish such who thinke that these fellowes say somewhat after what sort the Catholike Bishops following the holie Scriptures haue spoken of these points before the nouell and vaine words of those men In like maner vsing S. Augustines words we say to you We thinke it a part of our charge not onely to bring as witnesses against you the Canonicall Scriptures which alwayes we doe in the first place but also to produce testimonies out of the writings of holy Fathers not that wee mathch their authorie with the Canonicall Scriptures but to let them see who thinke you say somewhat the before your nouell and vaine boasting the Catholike Bishops and Fathers following the Scriptures haue taught as wee doe Which in all the fundamentall points of religion hath been againe and againe prooued vnto you In which points only Augustine maketh reckoning of the consent of Catholike writers Other points saith he there are about which euen the learnedest and best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree Cont. Iul. Pelag lib. 1. among themselues alwaies sauing whole the frame of faith and in some one matter some say better and more trulie then others But this about which we now deale belongeth to the very foundations of faith speaking of originall sinne in children When following Augustines example you first alleadge Scripture and then annexe the consent of Fathers as treading in the steps of the Scriptures wee will honour the Fathers iudgements for the Scriptures sake which they follow This is all which Augustine did or requires others to doe Neither do Augustines words by you alleadged serue your turne For what if the Fathers did constantly hold the Doctrine of originall sinne spread ouer all men and hauing receiued it from their Fathers so deliuered it to their posteritie Doth it follow that Augustine beleeued it either onely or principally because they did constantly teach it You heard the contrary out of Augustine before that that point is clearely and fully to be prooued by the Canonical Scriptures which euen his owne words in this very place doe testifie They all found it before any of them deliuered it Where did they finde it but in the Scriptures The consent of Fathers may helpe to vnderstand the Scriptures but it is no rule to vnderstand them by but rather the Scriptures are the rule to iudge of those truthes wherein the Fathers do consent Lastly Paul indeed saith that Christ gaue vnto his Church pastors and teachers that we should not be caried about with euery vvind of doctrine but Paul saith not that Pastors and Doctors may cary vs about with what doctrines they list or that we haue no libertie to trie their doctrine whether it be of God or no. God the Father saith of his Son Iesus Christ This is my well-beloued sonne heare him Yet our Sauior Christ commandeth his Church to search the Scriptures Paul was called to be an Apostle not by man but by Iesus Christ yet did the men of Beraea trie his doctrine by the Scriptures and are therefore commended by the holy Ghost Will you then be aboue our Sauiour Christ and his holy Apostle Paul to challenge vnto your selues vnder the name of Pastors and Doctors an irregular authoritie to leade the Church of God whither you list and must they followe you blindfold till you fall into the pit For while you pretend to assume this prerogatiue for the Fathers as Pastors and Doctors you meane by that sleight cunningly to conuey it to your selues But if he that prophocieth must prophecie according to the proportion Rom. 12. 6. Gal. r. 8. 1. Tim. r. 13. Tit. 1. 9. of faith if we may not receiue strange doctrine from an Apostle or Angel if Timothie be charged to keepe the true paterne of wholesome words if all Bishops must hold fast the wholesome word according to doctrine if we be charged not to beleeue euerie 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 2. 3. spirit but to trie them because manie false prophets are gone out into the world and for tryall of them haue our rules in the Scripture it will not discharge vs in the day of iudgement to say that we followed as we were led by Pastors and Doctors It will be sayd vnto vs that we had Moses and the Prophets Luk. 16. 29. 1. Pet. ◠19. Ioh. 5. 39. that we had a most sure word of the Prophets that we were commanded to search the Scriptures that we had warning long ago by the Prophet Ieremie Heare not the words of the Ierem. 23. 16. 22. Prophets that prophecie vnto you and teach you vanity they speake the vision of their owne heart and not out of the mouth of the Lord. If they had stood in my counsell and declared my words to my people then they should haue turned them from their euill wayes To conclude we follow the Fathers and all other true Pastors and Doctors in that which they truly teach vs not because we haue heard it of them but because we are so taught in the Scriptures as the men of Samaria beleeued not for the womans report but because they had heard Christ himselfe Ioh. 4. 41. 42. PAPIST They obiect and say that there is no reason to preferre the Fathers before the Scriptures and captiously they demand whether it be better to follow the openions of men that might erre and be deceiued or the sentence of God himselfe that 〈◊〉 neither deceine nor be deceiued But answer is soone returned that the question betwixt vs and them is not as they would make simple people beleeue whether the Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit but that which I wish al diligētly to note whether for the interpretation true sense of the scriptures we should not rather beleeue the anciēt holy and learned Fathers then those that liue in our daies so far frō the◠Apostles age neither for vertue or learning cōperable to the old Saints of Gods Church Let the question be propounded thus then none of indifferēt iudgmēt wil euer make questiō of the matter PROTESTANT As cunningly as you would shift off the true state of the question by propounding it in our names imperfectly at the first and then of
elder then this renewed face of our churches will that proue any aduantage for you Was not the Apostasie of Israel elder then the protestation of Elias against 1. King 18. them much more then the returne of many out of Israel in the dayes of Hezekiah Was not the Pharisaicall synagogue 2. Chron. 30. before the preaching of Christ before the church which he gathered by his preaching Boast not therefore of what standing your Antichristian tyranny is but tell vs if you can of what truth your religion is Truth we graunt you is most ancient but error also is often very ancient and is called by Angustine Vetustissima falsit as most ancient falshood and Epist 166. when the truth after a long time of suppression commeth to the light againe in the eyes of them that iudge by the outward appearance error seemeth elder then the truth Wherfore let vs clime aboue these middle antiquities which may be common both to truth and error and let vs come to the eldest and most ancient times of the Church and there behold the true and vndisguised face of the auncientest and truest Church Let vs search the Scriptures which onely conteine the most infallible description of the true Church If you shun this light say it is because there is no truth in Ioh. 3. 19. 20. 21. you yea because your workes are euill and you feare to come to the light least it should be manifest that you walke in the truth PAPIST Secondlie this is to make your cursed Synagogue of the Iewes that crucified the Some of God and wickedlie cried out His bloud be vpon vs and our children for more glorious then Christs Church for which he shed his bloud and praied so inst antlie to his father for as they now be in manie parts of the world so can they shew where they haue remained preached their religion for all these 1600 yeares and to say that Christs Church is inferior to the Iewish Synagogue is so blasphemous as Christian eares should not endure to heare PROTESANT Did Christ shed his bloud to make his Church glorious and eminent in worldly prosperity like to the strumpet of Rome that sittes vpon many waters and hath rule ouer many Reuel 17. 1. people yea ouer Kings and princes No no his kingdome is not of this world By many tribulations must the Ioh. 18. 36. Act. 14. 22. Rom. 8. 17. Ioh. 16. 33. 2. Tim. 2. 12. Hebr. 12. 8. Church of Christ enter into the kingdome of heauen It must bee comforted to his suffering that it may be comforted to his glory If it suffer with him it shall raigne with him In the worlde it shall haue trouble but in him only peace All that are not pertakers of chastismens are bastards and not sonnes Againe did Christ by his instant prayer to his Father request that his Church might treade on the necks of Emrours ride on a stately sâ—eed and Kings to hold the stirrop and going by on foot to lead the Popes horse by the bridle Or that they might â—â—â—eample patrimonies large seigniories generall command ouer king and key sar yea power of life and death ouer euery creature and to translate kingdomes and to turne the world vpside-downe at their pleasure Where is this prayer contained why had not Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles the benefite of it why was the primitiue church so washed by horrible persecutions Christ neuer made any such prayer he prayed that his Church might be preserued not altogether from but in Iohn 17. 15 temptations not that the worldly powers might not annoy the bodies of his Saints but that their soules might be kept from euill not that they might haue their heauen in this world but that they might bee with him where he is and see his Vers 24 glory Againe was Christ inferior to the Iewes when they crucified him or Stephen when they stoned him to death or Iames when Herod cut off his head or Peter when he bound him in prison what saith the scripture For thy sake Acts. 7. 12 we are killed all the day long and we are counted as sheepe for the slaughter Neuerthelesse in all these things we are more then Psal 44. 23. Rom. 8. 36. 37 conquerors through him that loued vs. Surely by Romish Logicke and and Romish diuinitie farre more happy and glorious was the condition of Pilat the priestes and accursed Iewes that cried Crucifie him crucifie him then of poore Christ O you that are bewitched and inchanted by these Luk. 23. 21. Baby lonish charmes will you be led by such guides who know not the beginnings of Christian religion If any will be my Disciple let him take vp his crosse and follow me will you Math. 16. 24 thinke that such can guide you to heauen whose God is the world whose glory is shame which minde earthly things With them no outward prosperity no Church no earthly kingdome no Church no scarlet coloured beast Phil. 3. 19. no triple crowned Pope no hatted Cardinals no mirred Bishops no Church But see the singular boldnesse of this popish proctor ioyned with singular folly The cursed Iewes can bring as far fetcht antiquicy to proue their Synagoue to bee the true Church as the Papists can for theirs If such antiquity can make you Papists why may it not as well make you Iewes This forcible Reasoner prescribeth 1600 yeares for the Papacie not a yeare or a day lesse doth hee allowe to the Iewish Synagogue from whence I thus reason That which by Popish confession belongs as well to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists that can neuer proue the Popish Synagogne to be the Catholique and true Church Antiquitie of 1600 yeares belongs as much to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists as this plaine Reasoner confesseth Therefore antiquitie of 1600 yeares can neuer proue the Popish Synagogue to be the catholike and true Church PAPIST That our Church hath continued all this while is as certaine for to omit other Prouinces and Kingdomes where it hath beene openlie knowen and not to speake howe wee can shew the continuall succession of Bisops in diuerse places of Christendom as Rheimes Padua Leigh and from the Apostles times to these our daies we can heere in our country proue the continuance of our religion for these 1600 yeares euen from the time of Saint Gregorie the great Pope of Rome who sent hither Saint Austen that conuerted vs Englishmen froÌ„ Paganisme and Idolatry to the faith of Christ as our owne histories teach and from Saint Gregorie we can ascend by the current streame of Popes his predecessors to Saint Peter and Christ himselfe For that it was our Catholike religion which was then brought in by Saint Austen no doubt caÌ„ be made for our chronicles say so much the ruines of so many ancieÌ„t Abbies latelie suppressed do aboundantly testifie the same none of reason or reading will denie it
thing so coÌ„trary to our proud nature had not the Son of God himselfe planted the doctrine no power could haue brought it into the Church Is it not contrary to the high estate of Kings that are in Gods steed vpon earth to submit their scepters to the Pope of Rome to lie downe for him to treade on their neckes to kisse his foote and his Legates knee to hold his stirrope to leade his horse by the bridle and go on foote by him to suffer him to pill and poll their countries by his prouisions dismes annates and such other exactions and to sequâ—ster out of their hands spiritual causes and persons and to draw them to the Court of Rome The tyranny of the Pope of Rome hath brought these wonders to passe will you thereof conclude that the sonne of God hath planted these tyraÌ„niesâ— so may you conclude for 1 King 18. 18. Baals Priests it is a thing so contrary to the tender nature of man for men to gash and launce their owne flesh that no power could haue brought it into vse if God himselfe had not planted it So may you conclude for those that caused 2 King 23. 10. their sons and daughters to passe through the fire vnto Moâ—ech that no power could haue brought them to it it being so contrary to naturall piety if God himselfe had not planted it The scripture hath told vs what Antichrist shal do He shal make all both smal and great rich and poore free Apoc. 1â— 1â— Apoc. 17. 3. and bond to receiue his marke in their right hand or in their foreheads and the Kings of the earth shall giue thier power and authoritie to the beast In a word superstitioÌ„ hath caried idolaters to crueltie against their owne bodies and flesh foolish prodigality of their owne substance base seruility in their owne persons and extreame fury in their minds and senses as the idolatries of the Gentiles do aboundantly proue Now to that which Caluine saith in old time it was free when you cannot deny it which is sufficient to conuince the tyranny of your Romish torturing shrift you say Do we not know that the communion was so in old time you may know that the Church in old time did celebrate the Lords supper on euery Lords day as for the people they did not require them all of necessity to receiue euery day yet appointed them to receiue at least at the Natiuity of our Lord at Easter and Pentecost as appeareth in Concil Agatheâ—s alleadged De Consecrat dist 2. cap. seculares Not thereby exempting them to receiue no oftner but exhorting them to receiue often and yet prouiding that at least they should receiue at some times What sopln strie is this because at other times of the yeare they were free to chuse at what time besides the three named they would communicate so they did all communicate then therefore the communion was in old time free as if the Church required no man at any time to receiue the communion Thus wily you are to beguile your selfe and those that will be led by you Christ left it not free for Christians to communicate or not to communicate neither did the Church of old time so obserue it Christ left it free for men to confesse in the eare of a Priest or not to confesse and the Church of old time so obserued it Will any man now say that the communion in old time was so free as auricular confession was wherefore although the Church of England treading in the steps of the ancient Church may make a lawe to bind men to the communion three times in the yeare yet may not any Church make the like lawe for your auricular confession vnlesse they can shewe as good warrant for the institution thereof as they can for the institution of the Lords supper By the way let be here obserued that you thus wrangling against Caluine to make a shew as if Christ himselfe and his Apostles had planted â—urioular confession bring not one worde of Scripture to proue it PAPIST Concerning also the sacrifice of the Altar and the Real presence no small pointr we haue antiquitre on our side For Sâ—int Austen is therein so plaine in his Manuel that one Thomas Rogers an English man who hath translated that booke is inforced to alter one whole Chapter to make the holy Doctor against his wil Chapter 11. Printed by Peter Short 15 97. to agree with their doctrine Another chapter there is quoth he though not clean left out yet applied froÌ„ an ill to a good purpose as the 11. chapter where that which was spoken of the sacrifice of the Altar is applied vnto our sacrifice of thankesgiuing or of the Real carâ—â—lpresence of Christ vnto his spiritual being at the coÌ„munion Thus we bâ—â—e S. Austen of our opinioÌ„ â— our enemie coÌ„feseth and so consequentlie the rest of the Fathers For no reason â—â—â—one vs to thinke that he did in so important a matter dissent from all other of his time Manie more questions might he touched vvherein they grant vs venerable antiquitie but these few being verie weightie may suffice for all such as he desirous of truth and saluation of their soules PROTESTANT What Maister Rogers hath done in translating Augustines Manuell and namely the eleuenth chapter I know not because I haue not his booke but sure I am he needed not alter or decline one worde there writen by Augustine for feare to giue any countenance to Popish sacrifice or carnall presence All that Augustine hath here in shew to serue your turne is that he calleth the Lords supper Mirabile caleste sacrificium a wonderfull and heauenlie sacrifice But what meaneth he by the terme sacrifice himselfe there interpreteth namely that Christ ordeined it to be offered in commemorationem mortis passionis for a remembrance not for a repetition of his death and passion Likewise in other places he speaketh to the same purpose as cont Faust lib. 20. cap. 21. Huius sacrificis caro sanguis c. The flesh and bloud of this sacrifice before the comming of Christ was promised by sacrifices of resemblance in his passion it was deliuered or rendred by the truth it selfe but after the ascention of Christ it is celebrated by the sacrament of remembrance and Epist 23. he saith that Christ is offered vp in the sacrament for the similitude betweene the sacrament and the thing whereof it is a sacrament that is the offering of Christ and generally of euery sacrifice else where he saith The visible sacrifice is asacrament that is an holie signe of the invisible De Ciu. Dei lib. 10 cap. 5. sacrifice And as he is aleaged De Consecra Dist 2. cap. Hoc est The offering of the flesh which is done by the Priests hands is called Christs passion death crucifying not in truth of the thing but in a signifying mystoris And the glosse vpon that chapter in the word Calestis Heauonlic that
himselfe the mercie of God forgiuing his sinnes and haue his conscience in regard of those sinnes still troubled It is therefore vntrue and sheweth want of faith that you say you thinke all the sinnes that come to minde should trouble a Christian mans conscience And yet it agreeth well with your Popish spirit which is the Spirit of bondage and not of adoption of feare and not of promise We say indeed that death is the Rom. 8. 15. 6 23. wages of all sin and therefore all sinne is mortall and damnable but we say that no sinne shall be laide to the charge of Gods Rom. 8. 33. 34. chosen whom none shall condemne because God himselfe iustifieth them Christ died and rose againe for them Secondly you obiect that the same scripture which commandeth the confession of some sinnes commandeth as well the confession of all It is very true that the scripture commandeth to confesse all sinnes but to God Of confession to men there is no other commandement but generall Confesse your sinnes one to another and pray one for another Which Iames 5. 16. giues as much authority to euery brother as to a Priest to heare confessions For of confession in the eare of a Priest you can shew no tittle in the scripture Howbeit as by the aduise and counsell of holy Scripture Christians are taught to ease their oppressed consciences into the bosoms of their faithfull brethren to the end they may be partakers of their comfort and prayers so we thinke it also a godly course and a ready meane to find comfort if the sheepe of the flocke do open their woundes to their pastor who hath wisdome and faithfulnes to powre in wine and oile that is to minister vnto them the word of admonition and consolation and this is the meaning of our Communion booke but what is this to Popish Eare shrift Yea but the booke prescribeth also how after confession the Priest must absolue him and the maner of words You shoulde haue dealt faithfully if you had set downe the whole truth Our booke appointeth the Priest first to pray vnto our Lord Iesus Christ that he would grant vnto the sicke person truely repenting and beleeuing in him forgiuenes of all his sinnes as acknowledging it to be the onely right of the Lord Iesus Christ to forgiue sins Secondly presupposing the sicke man truely to repent and to beleeue in Christ it appointeth the Priest by the authority of our Lord Iesus Christ who hath left power to his Church to absolue repentant sinners which power is theÌ„ executed by the Priest to absolue the sicke from all sinnes To absolue I say not to forgiue For Christ onely forgiueth as our booke there vnderstandeth forgiuenesse and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and as it is vnderstood in the Lords prayer and is interpreted by the Prophet Dauid Psalme 32. 1. 2. By couering and not imputing sinnes The Church by her ministers absolueth that is declareth to the repentant and beleeuing by authority of Christs promise Sent. lib. 4. Dist 18. Nec ideo seq that their sinnes are forgiuen So saith Peter Lombard This truelie we maie saie and thinke that onelie God remitteth and reteineth sinnes and yet hath giuen power to his church to binde and loose but he bindeth and looseth after one sort and the church after another For he bindeth by himselfe onelie so hee forgiueth sinne because he both clenseth the soule from the inwarde blot and looseth it from the debt of eternall death But he hath not granted so much to the Priests to whom he hath onelie giuen power to bind and loose that is to shew that â—en are either bound or loosed And Bonauenture in his disputes vpon it expounding the words of Ambrose Sacerdos officium exhibet â—ed nullius potestatis iura exercet That is the Priest executeth his office but exerciseth not the right of anie power writeth thus For Ambrose meanes to saie that sinnes are said to be remitted of the Priest not in manner of a doer but in manner of a minister Against both Ambrose Non per modum efficientis sed per modum ministrantis Conâ—â—l â—rid Sess 4. cap. 6. can 9. and your Maister of the sentences your Tridentine councell crieth Anathema giuing to the Priest in their sacramentall absolution not a bare ministrie to pronounce and declare but a iudiciall act whereby the sentence is pronounced by him as by the Iudge So making the comfort of him that is absolued to depend not onely vpon Christs promise but vpon the person of the Priest absoluing which is farre from the doctrine or meaning of our Church either in the Communion booke or any where else And therefore what affinity soeuer bee betweene your Latine words and our English there is no affinity betweene that comfortable absolution which our booke appoineth Gods minister in the name of Christ to publish to the humble and repentant sinner and your Popish and Pharisaical absolution Lastly this order of confession and absolution as they are set downe in the communion booke is indeede some part of the practise of our relition but no principle of our religion and therefore you do much abuse your Clients when you make them beleeue that this and other orders are any of the principles of our religion PAPIST Thirdly the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme why then is it not likewise lawfull in other things What word of The signe of the Crosse Images God willeth the one and forbiddeth the other and if the signe of the Crosse be good why not also other images especially of Christ crucified That teâ—t which they can bring to iustific the one vvill also serue for the other and that which they shall alleage to ouerthrovv the image of the Crucifixe will giue small rest to the signe of the Crosse PROTESTANT It is false that you say that the booke alloweth the signe of the Crosse in Baptisme That signe by the ordinance of the booke hath nothing to do in Baptisme It is onely made a signe of confession after Baptisme which vse our Church hauing receiued as continued from antiquitie in that manner without interruption considering how notably it serued the faithfull in old times to manifest their confession of Christ crucified thought meete still to retaine But as for reuiuing any other vse of it after so long disuse our Church thought it might rather tend to superstition then to edification the rather because your Popish confidence in such bodily exercises had greatly corrupted the primitiue simplicitie of the vulgar vse thereof among the first Christians There is no word of God that willeth the vse of it nor anie word of God that I know that forbiddeth the bare vse of it It grew out of a desire the faithfull had to testifie before the enemies of Christ their faith in Christ crucified In the vse thereof it seemeth they felt further comfort not hauing confidence in the
and in sin hath my mother conceiued me it conuinceth that all the frame of the thoughts of Psal 51. 5. mans heart is onely euill continuallie that in vs that is in our flesh dwelleth no good thing it prooues vs to be dead in trespasses and sinnes and therefore to be the children of wrath Whereby we are stripped of all conceit of free will of all presumption Gen. 6. 5. of our owne righteousnes and is the most vniuersal schoolmaister to lead all men vnto Christ In this so high a principle of faith I say your Church and his children hauing either no faith at all or a faith of many colours and manie Eph. 2. 1. 3. shapes notwithstanding your infallible iudge boast no longer of your one and the same Cutholike faith in all the world Your vaine and foolish contumelie which you cast vpon the Protestants that for triall of the scriptures they repaire to the spirit and for triall of the spirit post backe againe to the scripâ—â—res and sorunne round from the Scriptures to the Spirit and from the Spirit to the Scriptures world without end bewraies in you great ignorance of our doctrine For we diuide not the Spirit from the Scriptures nor the Scriptures from the Spirit that we should be faine to runne or go from the one to the other onely in the Scriptures we heare or learne of the Spirit whatsoeuer we know in the Scriptures we know it by the teaching of Gods Spirit that speaketh in them whatsoeuer we learne of the Spirit we learne it by and out of the Scriptures when we repaire to the Sriptures we repaire to the Spirit and when we go to enquire of the Spirit we go to the Scriptures If the God of this worlde had not blinded your eies that the light of this truth cannot shine vnto you you would neuer haue vpbraided vs with posting to and fro and running round But because you tell vs of roundes I pray you see what roundes your selires make in a matter of Faith of greatest consequence in all your Religion you giue out this conclusion as an article Subesse roâ—â—no Poâ—tifici omni creaturae est Extr. com de Ma. ior c. obed â—nam Sactam de necessitate salutis To be subiect to the Pope of Roâ—â—e is nâ—cessaerie to saluation for euerie creature we require you to proue it you alleage that the Pope is the heade of the vniuersal Church we yet aske for proofe you bring vs Tues Peirus super hane petraÌ„ c. Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wil build my Church tibi dabo claues to thee I wil giue the keies of the kingdome of heauen pasce oues me as feed my sheep feed my lambes We tell you Peter is one stone in the building but no rock or if you will needes haue a rocke his confession or Christ whom heconfessed is the rocke or foundation whereon the Church is builded we tell you the keies were giuen to Peter not alone but to the rest of the Apostles and hee with them commanded to feede sheepe and lambes and further whatsoeuer was giuen to Peter extendeth not to the Pope who is not Peter you say that Peter receiued those honours for himselfe and his successors and that the Church is built vpon him and them as a rocke and that he for himselfe his successors receiued the keies and left them to the Pope of Rome who now is Shepheard ouer sheepe and lambes all this you will proue by the scriptures we râ—â—uire you to proue that the Scriptures haue this sense you fetch your proofe from the Fathers we bring the Fathers as cleerly yea more cleerely for our interpretation then you can for Concil Nicen. Conat Afric yours you thrust on forward to the CouÌ„cels we bring you the authority of Councels to make the Pope no more theÌ„ a peere among other Patriarkes yea to cutte him off from medling out of his Dioces now you post to Councels confirmed by the heade that is the Pope whom either with Conncels or without you make your only infallible Iudge Are you now where you began do you thus daunce in a rounde and tell vs of roundes The Pope is head of the vniuersall Church Who saith so the Scriptures who shall interpret the Scriptures the Fathers Fathers not agreeing who shall iudge betweene them Councels Councels agree not who then shall strike the stroke the Pope And so the Pope is heade of the Church because the Pope will be so With these rounds you haue made giddie and brai nesicke innumerable poore soules God in his mercie stablish their hearts with grace that their eies may see the pitte before they fall into it Now I pray you what be those matters of Faith wherein the Protestants haue such mortall dissention without any hope of agreement they are many you say reckon them that we see how many they be The descending of Christ into hell and the lawfulnes of Archbishops and Bishops Is the question about Archbishops Bishops a matter of faith among Papists it may well be so who hold the Popes supremacy for the first and chiefe yea in effect for all the articles of their faith but surely Protestants holde it onely for a matter of order appertaining to the externall gouernement of the Church which is farre from a matter of faith your many matters of faith then are come to but one and that such a one as in ancient times was no article of faith at all in your Romane Creede no nor yet receiued in the East Churches In. expos Symboli as Ruffinus affirmeth Sciâ—nauÌ„ est quod in Ecclesiae Romana Symbolo non habetur additum We must know that it is not found added in the Creede of the Romane Church neither is the canse receiued among the East Churches And being receiued there Epist 99. was little certainty of the sense and meaning of it Ruffinus takes it to be all one with Sepultus est he was buried Augustine De Genes ad Lit. lib. 12. cap. as is afore shewed denies that Abrahams bosome is any part of holl and else where confesseth that neuer yet found that it is called hell where the soules of the righteous do rest And so little light can be founde of any such conceite as Papists De Christi anima lib. 4. cap. 5. haue of Christs descending into hell that Bellarmine saith Non est necessaria presentia animae Christi c. The presence of Christs soule to inlighten the Fathers with the diuine vision of him is not necessarie yet it seemed to be of congruitio that it should be present while that was in doing He makes it not of necessity but of congruity and that but in seeming neither this is as touching the sense but a weake matter of faith to obiect vnto vs that we dissent about it For we dissent not about the words of the article but receiue it we are