would soon bee quiet and the want of these things is the occasion of all the miseries which wee lie under as well the late Warrs as all the sad effects thereof Ph. Indeed War is an heavie judgment and I think I may truly say that the rigid Presbyterians to advance those things you have mentioned and other worldly respects and carnal ends have been the occasions thereof Pr. How can that bee Ph. By their preaching and prayings they have everie where disgraced the Parlament stirred up the people against the Armie incouraged Neuters and Malignants and put the English and Scot's Malignants in hope to finde a partie strong enough in England to destroie both Parlament and Armie Pr. I confess wee have justly complained against the Parlament and Armie becaus the one did not settle the Presbyterian-government and the other countenanced all Sectaries and Hereticks but wee did it not to the end to destroie the Parlament Ph. What ever your intents were I am sure your practice was abominable you fill'd all places with your clamors and out-cries against the Parlament and Armie as the Scotch Ministers likewise did untill you and they had con jured up more evil spirits then you could allaie And I am confident had it not been for the men of your faction who prepared the people for a new War by the courses aforesaid neither our conquered enemies at home nor the Scots durst have attempted anie more to make head against us Pr. What prejudice can the Parlament or Armie receiv by the Ministers It 's well known wee praied for them both And what can you object againstour Praiers or Preaching Ph. I could fill a volume with your reproaches and evil surmises scandals disgraces calumnies and other unsavorie matter by you cast upon the Parlament and Armie in your Sermons for a taste whereof view the book called the Pulpit-Incendiarie and let anie man judg whether this did not much alienate the people's hearts from the Parlament and Armie And for your praiers for them they were for the most part like your Sermons and still in your Sermons and praiers you speak of the Armie as enemies Pr. Well it was time for the Ministers to speak and praie and deal plainly with the people when all things were grown into such confusion and disorder as they were far wors then under the Episcopal Government Ph. I do confess there were disorders but the Churches are not in so bad a condition as under the Prelacìe for that Hierarchie was Antichristian Pr. I denie that it may bee som things injoined by the Prelates were Antichristian but not they as they stood in the Church of England for Antichrist wheresoever hee is described in Scripture is described by his fals doctrine and manie of our Bishops were Orthodox men free from Popish Errors and Heresies Ph. I 'le grant you they might hold fundamental truths and yet their calling bee Antichristian for who know's not that Antichrist is described as well by his power pride crueltie blasphemie hypocrisie and idolatrie as by fals Doctrine Rev. 17.1 2 3 4 5. 18.3 13.2 6 11. Ph. Well notwithstanding what you saie if Episcopacie had been lopped the abuses taken away those which were naught removed and good men put in their rooms wee had never seen these disorders and confusions for that government although but prudential as som would have it was an excellent means for staying the growth of errours and heresies in the Church Ph. Indeed that was the pretence at first but the cure was worse then the disease for it proved a heavie scourge to the Church of God and out of that egge grew the Serpent that Antichrist the head of Prelacie and I conceive that Government could never have been profitable to the Churches of Christ Pr. I will say no more of that Hierarchie seeing the same is abolished and the State hath thought fit to take it away but why is not the Church setled Ph. What do you mean by a Church in Gospell sense Pr. The word CHURCH besides the general acceptation of it signifying all the Elect hath a double signification 1. It 's taken for a particular Congregation so many as may or do meet together to partake in divine Ordinances or as wee call it a Parish and so the word Church is strictly taken 2. But the word Church in a larger sens comprehends not onely such a company but also the Christians in a whole countrie as Ephesus and Achaia and so many Thousands who could not possibly meet together in one place yet they are called a Church Act. 2.41 21.20 Ph. Time will not permit mee to enter into that controversie but for mine own part I am satisfied that the Churches under the Gospel are not Oecumenical National Provincial or Diocesan but * Cotton upon the 16 of Mat. ver 19. Way of Congregat Chur. Pa. 2. pa. 5 Par. 1. pa. 20. where Parker Ames Banes are cited Congregational which Congregational Churches ought to consist of so many Christians as may join in Christian fellowship and communion under one Pastor who ought to convers with them and know their state and condition and apply his Ministrie answerably unto them but for your greater Church and Parish Church I acknowledg none such Pr. However you think yet it is plain in that place of Act. 2.41 21.20 where the Christians were many Thousands Myriads they are called the Church c. Ergò c. Ph. It 's evident the word Church applied to so many Thousands as you speak of is not to bee taken properly but tropically and so by a Synechdoche it may bee taken for many Churches or els for part of the Catholick Church which manner of speaking is usual in a Amesius Medul cap. 32. § 3 4 5 6 15.18 Cap. 39. § 18 20 21 22 23 24 25 26. Scripture But I marvell why you should endeavour to prove that a Church in Gospel sense should contain more Christians then can convene in one place to partake in Divine Ordinances Pr. I doe it to let you know that men of greater parts and learning may have more dignitie and superintendencie and also a greater reward and encouragement Ph. So plead the Papists and the polititians amongst the superstitious Protestants of this last age for the Prelacy and Hierarchy who affirme that the Angells of the seven Churches of Asia and Timothy and Titus who were Evangelists were Diocesan Bishops And the same argument likewise serves for maintenance of the Bishop of Rome his preheminencie above all other Bishops which I think you will not defend Pr. I will not dispute the right of Episcopal government seeing with us it 's abolished but you must admit a difference and degrees amongst Ministers and Churches or greater inconveniences will follow for the Parishes which are the particular Congregations are not all of a bigness nor equall and I think they are well divided conducing much to my purpose Ph. The Pope and his
fellow having been two or three years or it may be less at the Universitie and put him up into the Pulpit not doubting of his calling to the Ministry And all these in order to the service of these mens pride and covetousness Pr. I perceive you finde fault almost with every thing although never so ancient and inoffensive What can you say against Mariage why it should not be accounted to belong to the Ministry having been so long used in the Church Ph. I answer that Marriage is a civill action and belongs to the Magistrate to see it orderly done and so was used under the Law and is so used at New-England and in other reformed Churches at this day Ruth 4.9 Lechfield newes c. pag. 39. It s true that in corruption of time when Antichrist prevailed above the civill power it was brought into the Church that the Priest might have an oare in every boat and no man marry but whom they permitted And by this meanes it was looked to that the Priests might not marry and those persons who did marry must have the Parish Priests Certificate or Licence least any grist should go by their mill Pr. This may be true and yet the thing not unlawfull for the Minister in the face of the Congregation to joyne the marryed couple and to give them some good exhortation fit for such a Solemnitie Ph. Why may not as much be done by a godly Magistrate being a civill action and common to all Nations But that is not all after the Marriage was annexed to the Ministeriall function the Church of Rome soone made it a Sacrament and the Ring must needs be added as the outward signe of love the invisible grace that as the Ring is endlesse the marryed couples love should be endlesse A worthie Sacrament and without doubt fit to be retained in the Church for the benefit of the Clergie both in respect of honor and profit the two maine things of all their designes Pr. But I pray you why may not burying the dead be a fit action for the Minister and a funerall Sermon requisite for them which are living Ph. For burying the dead It s also a civill work of Charitie for Christians to accompanie the corp's of their dead friends to the grave and to lay them there without more adoe and the dead also may burie their dead And what the Minister hath there to do more then another man I know not Pr. It s fit he should give some exhortation to the people and if he preach a Funerall Sermon it s done for the edification of the living and not for the dead and preaching is good in season and out of season Ph. I confess the word ought to be preached in season and out of season but some times and places are so unseasonable as no christian prudence will admit it convenient to preach as the times now are for a man to preach in Westminster-hall when Judges are sitting though Paul preached upon Mars-hill the Judges Court at Athens or to preach a Sermon in a common hall when a companie are at dinner where no man regards these times and places are too unseasonable there being convenient times and places for such religious actions And for your exhortation or funeral Sermon they are more inconvenient and unseasonable then at anie other time and place being more abused and the very original being naught 1. First we read of no such thing in the Scripture onely we finde godly men used to accompanie others to the grave and sometimes made lamentation for them 2. Secondly these funeral Sermons or rather Orations were first used by the Heathen and then taken up by the Church of Rome who used at these Solemnities to praise the dead 3. Thirdly thence the Church of Rome came to pray for the dead and to this day defend it stifly And therefore as a learned man once said in a Sermon in my hearing we have left praying for the dead for the evill of it we may as well leave off praysing the dead by reason of the abuse of it 4. Fourthly now besides this the corruption of the times are such that the gift for the funerall Sermons so blindeth the eyes of the Ministers that generally they alwaies finde out one thing or other to commend the dead for although most prodigiously wicked as what man in his sickness or at some other time will not do or say some good for which the Minister presently in conceipt placeth the dead partie in Paradise to the woful hardning of the wicked many of their auditors in a course of sin when they hear as bad as themselves absolved by the Minister as a Saint departed and a faithfull brother according to the blinde charitie of our Service-Book And were it not that some profit comes to the Clergie by these funeral Orations they would as easily be laid aside as their prayer and exhortation at the grave for which they had nothing given unto them Pr. You seemed before to take exception to the Baptisme of Infants and truly you reason like an Independent who are for the most part Anabaptists Ph. I do not disallow of the Baptism of some Infants whom I conceive to have right to Baptisme but I do not allow of the Baptisme of all children indifferently nor of all such children whose Parents profess Christianitie Pr. The ancient Fathers testifie the Baptisme of Infants in the Church to be an Apostolicall Institution and to have been used from the Apostles times when whole housholds were baptized and no exception of children And there are many reasons and unanswerable arguments grounded upon Scripture both in the old and New Testament to warrant it And the verie Text it self is clear Acts 2.39 The promise is made to you and to your children c. And if the promise be made to them children they then have right to the signe or seal of the promise Ph. Touching what you alledg from the Fathers I confess I have not all those books in my custodie which I finde cited for this purpose but I have searched divers of them and if you please to examine them they make nothing for you All agree in this that Infants were baptized in the Primitive Church and Augustine affirmes it to be an Apostolicall Tradition August contr Donat. l. 4. ca. 23.24 Lib. 10. de gen ad liter ca. 23. Ciril in levi l. 4. But this doth not prove that the children of Heathens nor of all such who professed christianitie were baptized how wicked and lewd soever their parents were or whither of the Church or excommunicate And such as hold all ought to be baptized hold that children dying without Baptisme cannot be saved Cipri Epi ad fidum 137. And for your Arguments from Scripture you can thence conclude nothing But that the Infants of believers have been and may be baptized And if you observe where you finde whole Families baptized as the Jailor Acts 16.14.15.33 34. and Lydia's
cashiered or rather never admitted into the Churches of Christ But I cannot devise how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seeme as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5.1 compared with chap. 3.1 3. chap. 4.10 Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14.23 Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hold it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9. And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he bath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had the oversight of all the Churches in their Diocesses some peculiars excepted and put in
new Elders or assistants surely herein they made you an absolute Pope and sole Judge of that which the Bishops never allowed nor do your Brethren of the Province of London approve thereof But was this all you did I doe suppose you and your Elders should have informed your selvs whether such as intended to communicate had set up Christ in their Families and places in the exercises of Religion and had shewed forth by their conversations the signs of faith and Repentance these things are necessarie for all Communicants Ph. For the lives of the Communicants they are better known to others then to me and for my part I shall not take notice of them but do desire that those who are privie to such offences as may justly debar the receivers from the Sacrament will make it known to me and I shall acquaint the Church viz the Elders with it and take their advice what to do And so shall I likewise crave their assistance in Judiciall Examination for the future Ph. It seems you go no further but only to bring the people to conform to your new Government for I understand you had some of your Communicants were so verie ignorant that they could not tell you how manie Commandements there are and others knew not what Faith was and others answered as ignorantly And yet the names of these were taken by you and they admitted to the Lords Table and none were refused Pr. It s true I confess I found some ignorant but verie willing to conforme and receive instruction and that gave me good hope of them And therefore for the present least I I should discourage others I admitted all that offered themselves at the Table whose names I had before entred in my Book and divers others who were not of my Parish came also to my Church to receive at the same time for the incouragement of others Ph. Do you account this superficial dealing separating the precious from the vile when none are refused It is just as I expected it would be this is but the Counterfeit of Reformation and much like the Reformation which manie in the Church of Rome would willingly have for they have written divers Books tending to Reformation so it might not demolish the stately Fabrick of their pretended Church but might rather polish it by taking away those things which all men crie shame of and which do therefore indanger their Church the reforming of which would give them more hope of the continuance of the old Idolatrous Babel which yet together with all your devices will ere long come to ruine Pr. Nothing is perfect when its first brought forth what ever you think I conceive this to be a good begining of Reformation and I hope we shall proceed in it to more perfection But touching the Reformation of the Church of Rome I never expect anie they being appointed to destruction These are but the discouragements of you and others who oppose the setting up of all Government in the Church Ph. I have often told you we do not oppose all Government we would only have this building demolished that a better might be set up in the roome of it Pr. What course would you have for preaching the Gospel if the present Ministerie should be removed and the Churches disbanded Ph. Without doubt the Parliament seeth how that may be provided for For my part I wish that all the Parishes were dissolved as to the matters of the Church and all the Tithes belonging to the late Bishops Arch-Bishops Deans and Chapters Donatives Parsons and Vicars were released or sold at a reasonable rate to the owners of the Lands out of which they arise And these probably without anie addition may raise a sufficient revenue for maintenance of a godly and able Ministerie through this whole Common-wealth to preach the Gospel to all who will hear the word of God And all who shall be found worthie may be imployed Pr. What will this conduce for Reformation Ph. By this means this plant I meane this Popish Order of Ministerie who unjustlie usurp authoritie over the bodies souls and States of men calling them their Churches their Parishes their flock their sheep and their Tithes as if all were theirs nothing Christs not being of the planting of our heavenly Father will be plucked up which being removed the faithfull will have libertie and opportunitie to separate themselvs from the wicked and profane and be gathered unto Christ under true Pastors and Church-Officers who will lead them in the pathes of righteousness and truth where being associated together in Church-fellowship they will be more reformed then ever can be expected from anie companie in anie Parish-Congregation Pr. Well I now fully perceive what your intent is in a word you set your self to cast contempt upon our learned and reverend Clergie and to take from them their double honour both of reverence and maintenance and to bring them as low as the stipendarie Clergie of Germanie And I see no hope if your amendment I will therefore spend no more time with you yet I doubt not but we shall hold our Parsonages and Church-Livings as formerly we have done And if some will needs separate let not that hinder us of our Tithes and profits and then let them run after what new Teachers they please If they run from us we are discharged of that care which we should otherwise have of them Ph. Sir it may be before you and I meet again you may wheel about and change your minde as you and some others have done alreadie Remember what I say and so fare you well POSTSCRIPT REader thou maiest perceive by some passages in this Dialogue that the same was written some moneths if not years since which is true and the Author was resolved finding it difficult to get it pass the Presse to burie it in oblivion Hoping also that the pretended Clergie of the Land would have considered their waies and been wise But finding the follie of some of them through their Pride and Covetousness to grow into madness this Messenger is sent to stop their way farewell FINIS
agents dealt not so equally in that point as they might have done It s true that devotion in such as founded Churches and such as gave Tythes to them did it in such sort as they saw good or convenient for their posteritie but the great Lateran Councell at Rome Anno 1215. held under Pope Innocent the third the most abominable conspiracie that ever was against Christs Gospell except the Councell of Trident took away the liberty which men before time had viz. to give their tythes to whom they pleased and tyed them up to pay them to their own Parish Priest which absolutely enthralled the people and causeth that the worst deserving have had commonly the most meanes and this perfected the division of the Parishes as now they are Look Repor L. 2. p. 44. Parsons Laws pa. 66. Pr. I confess the Parishes are not equall but the greatest is little enough and as it s well for the Church that they are divided and their bounds known that every Parson or Vicar may know his own sheep and the bounds of his Parish Ph. You reason carnally and aime at earthly respects Pr. What can you alleadge against the Parishes Ph. I must tell you they are Popish in their very institution and originall and some Parishes especially about London and in other Cities and places are so populous containing twenty thousand people or more and of so huge extents that no Minister of the Gospell can converse with the people of the whole Parish as a man of God ought to doe nor discharge his duty to them all with a good conscience Pr. You would open a wide gap to our brethren or rather adversaries for they are both the Brownists and Independents who long to see our Parishes broken in pieces Ph. I will not so far enter into that Controversie as to maintain all things held by all men called by those names but this I say I dare pawn my life there can bee no Reformation whilest the Parishes and Ministrie stand as they do let the Government bee Presbyterial or Independent Ph. Why say you so Ph. First for the Parishes I told you before some of them are so vast in greatness and populous that they need ten Ministers where there is but one Pr. I grant it that if more means could be found out to maintaine them it were well there were more Ministers but you must not take the Tythes from the Parson Vicar or Minister to whom They are due Jure divino and give them to others The Minister ought to have all the tythes of his Parish as well by the Law of God as man and the contrary by consequence is Sacriledge Ph. You cannot yet make mee believe though I have heard and seen it much pleaded for that Tythes are due to the Ministers of the Gospell Iure divino Pr. I doubt not but you may very well have heard them pleaded for as Jure divino for the streame and current of Antiquity runs clearly that way Ph. I confess the Papists generally hold it some of the Fathers and some of the more covetous and superstitious Protestants and yet Car. Bellar. Cont. l. 1. de Cler. pa. 316 317 318. Cardinall Bellarmine and Suarez the Jesuite the great Patrons of this opinion have not agreed with the rest nor between themselves what part of the Tythes the Priest or Minister ought to have nor whether he himselfe should have all which the Priests and Levits had I would know of you why Tythes should be due jure divino under the Gospel more then all other offerings and profits which the Priests had under the Law The Tythes then were not only for the Priests but for the Levits the poore and the stranger who were more then the twelfth part of the people our Ministers not the hundreth part They did bodily service about the sacrificing and had garments for that purpose which the formulists say the Surplices resembled and which are condemned as superstitious and Jewish or rather since taken from the Pagans The Priests and Levits might buy no land in Canaan but be content with the portions and Cities which God gave them These Jewish Ordinances are abolished and the Priesthood is changed Our Ministers are content to leave the killing of beasts and doing of such service hold it not unlawfull to buy Land when they can get Money But they will have all their Tythes jure divine whereas the Christians in Affrica and many in other places paid no Tythes till after Augustins time Bellarmine Contro li. 8. de Cler. pa. 315. Pope Innocent the third brought in paiment of privy Tythes about anno 1215. Fox Act. Mon val 1. pa. 336. Col. 1. And in the disputation at Prage upon the Articles of John Wicliffe Art 17. it s concluded that Tythes are meer alms and Augustine and Chrysostom are cited to the same purpose upon Luc. 11. Pr. We do not take the Tythes as by any judiciall or Ceremoniall Law for they were payed by Abraham to Melchizedech before the Law and by Christ himself and there is nothing in the new Testament for abolishing of them Ph. I have no intent to enter into that controversie further then to let you know that were it not for the upholding of the pomp and pride of the pretended Clergie this could be no controversie at all For that which you say concerning Melchizedech and Abraham his paying Tythes to him before the Law I conceive the Law was the same in substance in tradition before it was written and without doubt Adam taught his sons to sacrifice and instructed them in the things appertaining to the Worship and service of God Abraham gave the tenth of the spoile of his enemies and that freely what is that to the payment of the Tythes of the fruit of the Land and increase of the beasts c. especially you being no Priests after the order of Melchizedech And touching Christ his paying of Tythes which indeed I have heard insisted upon if it be taken in a proper or Grammaticall sense is a meer fable for Christ had nothing of which he could pay Tythes not so much as a smoke-penny or a garden-penny And I do not finde he wrought any miracle to provide ought to pay Tythes as he did to pay Tribute Pr. But I pray you what inconvenience would follow if Tythes should continue to be paid as formerly under that notion as due jure Divino Ph. I could tell you of many evils which must of necessity follow such payment of Tythes of which I will give you a taste and omit the rest 1. It s a retaining of part of that Law which is abolished by Christ Heb. 7.11 12. If the Priesthood be changed then there is a change of the Law 2. It upholdeth a main point of Popery which is that upon the same ground the Ministers take the Tythes the Pope as high Priest over the Clergy is to have the first fruits and tenths and his Prelats their Procurations
5.19 Whosoever shall break one of the least commandements and teach men so shall be least in the Kingdome of heaven which I take to be meant of the Church of God under the Gospell And it is to be therefore feared that reformation will be deferred untill the carcases of the chief of these men are fallen in the Wilderness that they may never see the promised land Pr. You censure the faithfull Ministers of the Church very uncharitablie why should you suspect their faithfulness in reforming Gods house seeing they are painfull in their callings and faithfull in that which is committed to them Ph. I honour the faithfull Ministers of the Gospel and I beseech the Lord to increase their number But besides what I have formerly said I will remember you of what passed in these last years and by that you may judge of their faithfulness whom you so much commend It s manifest in what condition the Parlament found this whole Nation at their first meeting even posting in all hast to Rome longing after the Garlick and Onions of Egypt and they had Captains made to lead them thither the whole Rabble of Prelates as their Captaines and cheifs And the inferiour Clergy Parsons Vicars Curates Priests c. with the rest of their Apocryphall Ecclesiasticall Orders as their Lieutenants and inferiour Officers And these faithfull men you speak of serving the time made no head against the rest but patiently bear what their Lords put upon them and so marched with the throng towards Egypt Pr. I cannot say but that the Church of England although the most famous Church in the World furnished with a most learned and orthodox Clergie had manie in it who were very corrupt and superstitious But these are removed and orthodox godly and learned Divines of whom we formerly spake put in their roomes and places Ph. You glorie like the Angell of the Church of Laodicea in your gifts and graces and know not your want and poverty Rev. 3.17 It s partly true that in some places the ignorant scandalous and others who would not take the Covenant have been removed and some of these orthodox men put in their roomes and that is and will be the bane of these Churches and Church-men Take but a view of their practices and let that speak how well they have carried themselves within five yeares past since they got their preferments I could instance in many places where superstitious and blind bussards were put out of their Livings and some of these Orthodox men put in their roomes and when they had got good Livings were they or are they contented Some hold livings in the Country and live in London hardly ever coming to the flock but to take the fleece Some hold two or three Livings a peece some leave one and run to another when they can finde a greater nay they will fight for a better Living rather then loose it And yet falsly bewitch the filly people to believe that its the call of God so to do when it s nothing els but the delusion of Satan and of their own wicked hearts to satisfie their ambition and avarice See but how these men presse the Committee for plundered Ministers for augmentations and removals from day to day and how they ingage Parlament men to act for them calling themselves in their Certificats and Petitions godly learned and orthodox Divines And it is observed in the Country that many of those who are thus put in prove more proud covetous and contentious then those which were put out And I doubt not but when these mens bellies are full and they at ease they will agree to make a golden Calfe and rise up to play as their Predecessors did And I do believe that those who serve their cures as they call them by a Deputy will without repentance go to heaven by a Deputy Pr. Although I will not excuse all the Clergie of the land who have two Livings nor their removal from place to place where they had sufficient maintenance before nor the pride contention or avarice of some of them yet I know many of the Clergy of whom I know there is no cause to fear their revolting or falling into popish errours or superstitions or other ill courses they being known to be religious and godly men It is true some are constrained to take two livings for that one will not maintaine them and others for a time to hold two Livings because they are not sure of the better holding it but during the Sequestration Ph. Sir I doubt you have been a little tacked with that Epidemicall disease of a pluralist and guilty of removing from place to place But I must tell you your excuse will not bear you out at Gods Tribunall The very Popish Doctors and Cannon Law condemn pluralitie of Benefices in a Presbyter men do not use to put away their wives nor take another to her which formerly he had upon such pretences The truth is the preaching of the gospel is meerly made a trade to get money they preach for hire run before they be called come in at the window like a thief and preach according to their pay provided they may have sufficient to keep contempt from the Clergie be as powerfull as the Popish Doctors and able through their abundance to contend with their whole Parish and swagger in their silks as their Predecessors did they will be content otherwise they will tell you you rob God in not paying their Tythes and do not allow them honorable maintenance Pr. These things which you charge the Ministers with are inconsistent with honestie and religion and I told you many of the Clergie who intend the reformation according to the foundation laid by the Parliament by advice of the Reverend Assembly of Divines are godly Orthodox and learned men whom in charitie you are bound to belive can never fall into damnable errors heresies or abominable practices Ph. Touching their final estate I will not judge but leave that to Almightie God yet this I dare say none of these men are better then Peter who once acted the Devils part nor better then Aaron who upon like pretence as these men have viz. necessitie or convenience joyned to make the golden Calf nor are they better then their predecessors whose mouths were stopped and their judgments blinded with honorable maintenance and preferment Consider but this Cranmer and Ridley although godly Bishops and Martyrs were two of those who opposed King Edward the fixt and his Councell in the case of Mr. Hooper when he would have omitted popish Ceremonies at his entrance into his Bishoprick Act. Mon. vo pa. 146. Also call to minde Jewell Babbington Chappell Mr. Hutton Davenant Morton Whitgift Ro Abbot Pilkington and Hall who all deserved well of the Church of God and better then most of these Orthodox men whom you so much admire whilest they continued in their uprightness before they were loaden with honor and honorable maintenance But see
how they carryed themselvs afterwards some of them turned notable persecutors others grew idle some erroneous if not hereticall in their judgments And attained with their Lordships Hierarchicall superstitions I could name others of inferior ranke of great note for learning pietie and soundness of judgement even in points controversall who upon conformitie after long standing out accepted great livings and presently became the very Atlas's of popish Ceremonies Vpon all which I conclude that these pretended reformers having heretofore tasted of the Devils broth in their conformitie and subscription and having not yet repented of it will shortly fall to eat the flesh and swallow up any thing which makes not against their honor or profit Pr. You cast very foule aspersions upon our reverend Clergie and have drawn mee into a discourse which I never intended I intimated to you before that it 's the peoples fault that they do not joyne with their Ministers to settle the Church and reforme the abuses in the same It 's an easier matter to finde a fault then to amend it for my part I think the perversness and peevishness of the people is the cause which hindreth Reformation for that they will abide no government but every one will be of his own Religion without controul Ph. I cannot excuse all the people nor think I all faultie who are afraid of having their Religion measured out unto them by the Presbyterie especially by the rigid sort who account all error and heresie which suites not with their conceptions and all men schismaticks and Sectaries whose consciences are not just of their size and yet I am perswaded that reformation goeth not forward is chiefly the fault of the pretended Clergie Pr. How can that be or how doth it appear Pr. Because most of the pretended Ministers must be casheired before there can be any reformation for either the Ministers are dumb blinde guides or els so prophane irreligious or superstitious that if they be reformers their Elders in all probabilities will be of the same stamp to joyne with them And then I leave it to you to judge what reformation here 's like to be when Satan must cast out Satan Pr. This is the condition but of few places many being better furnished both with Ministers and people Ph. The most of the best sort of Ministers stand so much upon their own interests and besides are in so great slaverie to their Patrons that we see they straine their wits to advance their own honor and profit and to please men least either their Livings should suffer any diminution or some one finde a hole in their coat some Symonie lapse or other flaw in their Title whereby to put them out of their Living which before they will loose the most will adventure their souls And upon these grounds it is that every one living within the compasse of their Parish or their perambulation walk must be acknowledged one of their flock and comming to Church he is without doubt a member of the visible Church how ignorant or wicked soever or els how can they demand any Tythes or offerings from them And for the same reason the Ministers labor to preserve their Parishes intire and not to leave out any part thereof least they loose the Tythe and benefit which comes by it And hence is it that they maintain every Parish to be a visible Church although there be neither lawfull Minister nor any Congregation of faithfull people there who have given any testimonie that they are members of Christ or of the houshold of faith Pr. These things may easily be amended and I presume when the Church is setled and the Presbyterian government with the Classes and Synods confirmed these things which are amiss may be altered or changed they are but pettie blemishes and the Ministers will therein satisfie the weak and such as are offended But it s well you have no greater matters to charge them with Ph. I could acquaint you with other abhominable things maintained by your Ministers on purpose to satisfie their lusts of pride and covetousness to which all other things are but drudges besides what I formerly told you off which although you account them pettie matters yet are they repugnant to the essence of a Church of Christ And I see none goeth about to amend them they have Elders and Officers chosen as if they intended reformation but the Ministers and their confederates the Elders do but provoke the Lord grieve his holy Spirit and mock and abuse the people of God Where is anie of your great Presbyters that ever confessed that his Parish was too great and the people too manie although they were twentie thousand and his Living worth 500 l. per annum or that anie of the people were so wicked that hee would spare them out of his Church or desired to have his Parish divided that hee might make way for others more able or worthie then himself Least also hee should part with some of his Tythes and so diminish his revenue and greatness which is against his honour and profit Pr. I have already given you satisfaction to that you now said and tell you again wee must not expect to have a reformation at once it s a matter requires time and autoritie to compell obedience to the Orders of the Church and then you shall see the Presbyterie act vigorously and reformation will undoubtedly go on apace But I pray you what are those other things to which you take exception as things abominable and yet maintained by the Clergie Ph. They defend and maintain their Popish callings from the Prelates their old conformitie and subscription which ingaged them to bee the Prelates and so the Popes Vassals the Patrons right to present to the Churches the Popish and Apocryphal names of Priests Parsons Vicars and Curates the Book of Common Prayer and Homilies and use of popish Ceremonies maintenance by Popish and superstitious offerings double benefices leaving one living when they can get a greater thrusting themselvs upon people without their suffrage consent maintaining Popish Vestries beeing a mear mockerie of Christs Ordinance as if they intended to separate the precious from the vile when they do nothing less All which things with others might easily bee shewed to bee abominable and not to bee suffered in the Churches of Christ Besides these they plead stifly that marrying burying and funerall Orations belong to the Ministerial function and allow of all children to bee baptized although the Children of Turks and Infidels but especially those of their Parish if they bee offered to them how wicked soever their parents are And in like manner they admit all to the Lords Supper how unfit soever if they come but to Church These and others such like have I heard pleaded for with great confidence whilest they have blamed others who take upon them to preach not having such callings as they howsoever gifted and yet for advantage they will bear with anie novice or ignorant
the Parents at least one of them were believers And touching that place in the Acts which onely seemes so plain to you If I should admit the promise there mentioned to be that which you meane which may verie well be questioned it makes nothing to prove that for which its intended by the men of your opinion who will have all the children in their Parish if their parents come to Church to be baptized The next words clear it from such construction and give you a full answer The promise is made to you and to your children and to such as are a far off but the Apostle further addes even as manie as the Lord our God shall call so that by your construction this must be concluded Converts have right to the promise and so have their children c. You conceive the State hath done well in debarring the wicked and abominable from the Lords Table and if the Parents be separated or excommunicate so I account them who are debarred from that Sacrament how can their children have right to the other as being born of believing Parents Pr. We conceive we have sufficient warrant to baptize all Infants that are brought to us being offered in the Church to be baptized For although their immediate Parents were neither of them Beleivers yet some of their ancestors might be and we are bound in charitie to believe they were Believers for God sheweth mercy to thousands of generations of them that love him Ph. You are without doubt singular in your opinion and upon this ground all the children of Turks are to be baptized if offered in the Congregations because they proceed from Abraham by Hagar and all the Jews because they proceed from Sem yea and all the Gentiles because they proceed from Japheth and all the world because they proceed from Adam I never heard asserted untill of late nor do I think any Orthodox Divine will maintain it I confess I once heard something to that purpose from a Minister whom you know very confidently affirmed But afterwards he having to deal with the Anabaptists forsook that hold and stood onely upon that point to prove that some Infants had right to or might be baptized which he then and at other times proved by Doctor Featleys arguments against the Anabaptists Pr. How ever it may be with the children of Turks and other Infidels yet there is no doubt but the children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession although we see not the signes of grace and election in them have right to Baptism Ph. I account godless impenitent persons living in the bosome of the Church as Infidels and Heathens and the Apostles rule is so and in the language of the Scripture they are dogs and swine to whom holy things are not to be given nor the childrens bread to be cast to them Matth. 7.6 And their children where neither Parent can be judged a believer which no notorious wicked man or woman can be are pronounced unclean 1 Corinth 7.14 How ever God may shew mercie the Church ought to judge according to outward appearance and not to admit the wicked Parents to the one Sacrament nor their children to the other without reformation in the Parents or one of them But I pray you why was not the child baptized which was brought from another Parish to your Congregation to be baptized I understand the Minister refused to baptize it Pr. It s true but it was not refused upon your ground the Minister consulted with the heads of the Parish and upon debate of the matter they concluded it was not fit it should be baptized there least it might be chargeable to the Parish Ph. I am sorrie to hear this carnal resolution from such a Minister and so long taught a people It seems some Ministers and people dare transgress the Law of God if it be for advantage As the Pharisees taught upon pretence of their Corban the Box But how doth this agree with that tenet that all children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession which all are in that Parish where that Childe was born ought to be baptized Pr. If it be a fault let him or them answer for it who did it it may be they are able to give satisfaction therein But touching that which you said before that some are to be accounted unclean we cannot censure any as profane or unclean nor keep them from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the Minister cannot do it of himself without the Elders Church-Officers joyn with him Although the Minister know the Communicants to be prodigiously wicked or ignorant and in all probabilitie eat and drink their own judgment or damnation he cannot keep them from the Sacrament Such must be suspended by the Church before the Minister can refuse to admit them and untill then their children ought not to be denied the Sacrament of Baptisme for the reason before alledged Ph. Touching admitting all to the Lords Supper upon that ground because the Minister cannot refuse them not being prohibited by the Church you mean the Presbyterie I answer the Minister is bound to forbear to administer the Sacrament to them whom he knowes eat and drink their own judgment for the reasons aforesaid Although you have not the power of the Church-censures in your hand The reason is clear because it is alwaies a sin to give holy things to dogs and to prophane Gods Ordinances But it s no sin to forbear to administer a Sacrament upon just occasion for a time The Jews were not reproved for omission of Circumcision in the Wilderness Joshua 5.5 and the Passeover upon just occasion might be deferred for a moneth Numb 9.9.10 And although I think it no sin to communicate with the wicked in the Ordinances where I am not a personal actor nor approver of their sin but a partaker Yet it s without doubt a sin to be an actor in such a case for the actor transgresseth the rule and causeth others to transgress Pr. It seems you stumble at mixt Congregations do you ever think to finde a Church on earth so clean as not to have wicked men in it The tares will grow in the field with the wheat untill the harvest which is the end of the world Ph. I confess your mixt Parochiall Congregations do so far make mee stumble that I much question whether they can be reputed true visible Churches of Christ And I hold that manie of them are not having not the essentials either the material nor formal causes of a Church in Gospel sense but are rather the Synagogues of Satan like Priests like people and the best are leprous and very unclean I know the Tares shall grow with the wheat Matth. 13.38 but if you mean by Tares profane wicked men they shall grow in the field that is in the world not in the Church the Tares which shall be in the Church untill the harvest are hypocrites profane men shall be
the deceased which he contracted by his non-payment of Tythes whilest he was living and ought as well as other Offerings be laid aside according to that Thou shalt not bring the hire of a Whore nor the price of a dog into the house of the Lord c. And what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols Deut. 23.18 Pr. But now I pray you according to your judgement what must become of all our Churches It seems by your argument if one may believe you they must all be plucked down as the Brownists teach what say you to that Ph. Touching the name CHURCH in your sense I do not greatly like it for it properly signifieth a Companie and is used for the companie of the faithful yet for the present I shall admit the word by a Metonymie to signifie the place of their meeting And I do not conceive there is any necessitie to pluck these Churches or meeting places down I confess I put no holiness in them and think the Congregation may as well meet in any other convenient place and that there is neither Legal nor Evangelical holiness in them And that plucking down all the Popish and superstitious pictures and Monuments of Idolatrie I do not mean the Arms of men of renown and placing a faithfull Ministerie there is a sufficient purging of these places to make them fit for the people of God to meet in for partaking of the holy Ordinances of God Pr. Why say you so These Churches were founded by Papists and have been used to Idolatrie And therefore you may as well allow of the things you speak against even now as these Churches I think both ought to be allowed indifferently Ph. I hold there is great difference First for those I spake of formerly we are sure they were the inventions of the Man of sin and its possible to shew when and how they were brought into the Church of Rome But these Churches at least manie of them are more ancient then Poperie or Antichrist for it s not possible that Antichrist could come untill the Roman Empire was broken and removed which was at least four hundred years after Christ Before which Christianitie was plentifully spread in England and many Churches and Congregations planted for the true worship of God 2 Thes 7 8. Reve. 13.2 Antiquitie with full consent agree that Christianitie was here planted in or neer the Apostles daies and that upon occasion of the Persecution that rose about Stephen Acts 11.19 divers of the Apostles and Disciples came into England amongst whom the Ancients reckon Peter Paul Joseph of Aramathea and Symon Zelotes And that some Brittaines both men and women were famous Christians and some suffered Martyrdom here in the first ten Persecutions Fox Act. Mon. vo p. 147. 148. Speeds Chron pa. Now then we cannot conceive but that the pietie and devotion of those times when they had a Christian King Lucius An. 180. pr. Christ and Christianitie countenanced and priviledged by divers of the Emperors especially Constantine and Theodosius would stir up the Christians to build them meeting places Besides about the year six hundred when Augustin the Monck falsly called the English Apostle came into England sent by Pope Gregorie the Great who had not taken upon him the Title of universal Bishop he found the reliques of manie Churches and Congregations of Christians planted in England and Wales Fox Act. Mon. vo pa. 150.151 And he disputed with the Monks of Bangor about Ceremonies by which it s conceived he brought not so much Religion with him as he did superstition and Introductions to Popery for the Brittains had learned Religion from better Tutors It s true afterwards these meeting places were generally all polluted with Popish Idolatry all which with the Reliques thereof being swept out they are clean as before Pr. But what say you to this many of our Churches were Idols Temples Goodw. Ant. Ro. ca. 20. de delubro Ph. The Parish Churches I conceive were built for the service of the true God the forms of them are unlike the Idol Temples But I confess some of the Cathedrall Churches were the Temples of Idols as of Jupiter Apollo Janus and Diana some of which are demolished and some were new built as Pauls at London by Ethelbert the King about 1060 years since At which time hee put out the Flammins and Arch-flammins and set up Arch-Bishops and Bishops These Churches were built and dedicated to Idols or rather Devils and false Gods and therefore ought to be demolished as I conceive according to that Law Ye shall destroy all the places where they served their Gods and break down their Altars c. Deut. 12.2 3 c. Pr. Well I hope shortly to see the Church-government setled with the Classes and Synods and that thereby all things will be well reformed for the Appeals will regulate every thing which is irregularly done and many will see more then a few Ph. I should be glad to see a through Reformation but I do much feare these Prudentiall things the Classes Synods and Appeals to them will prove but imprudentiall and Physicians of no value And I doubt not but those who put the Parliament upon them have their own ends and aims in them Pr. Why say you so the Church of Antioch did appeal to the Councell at Jerusalem in a case of Conscience Acts 15. and why may not we do the like Pr. I deny that there was any such Appeale as you mean its true the Church of Antioch in a case of conscience did voluntarily send Paul and Barnabas and other brethren to Jerusalem to advise with the Apostles Elders and Church there about that matter And accordingly they received the sentence and judgement of the whole Church as well Brethren as Apostles and Elders which Apostles had extraordinary gifts of knowledge and revelation and what they directed them was in stead of the written Word We have no persons so gifted in these daies but must have recourse to the Law and the Testimonies the written Word of God Pr. But do you not think that these Classes and Appeals will be of excellent use for cropping and curbing of Errors Heresies and Sectaries and keeping the Church free from pollution Ph. I am unwilling to tell you what I think of Presbyterial Gouernment I le say nothing of it but take thus much mark the end and observe it These things the Classes Synods and Appeals can never profit the Church of Christ The Appeals are in effect the same wee had before from the Arch-Deacon to the Consistory of the Bishop from thence to the Arches then to the Audience and then to the Delegates so from the Congregation Presbyterie to the Classes from the Classes to the Provinciall Synod then to the Nationall Here is work for the Civill Lawyers to wyer-draw a cause as a Proctor once said untill dooms day if he lived so long These are not so likely to do good as the superintendencie of
either a lawfull Minister or one who stands in place of such who in some degree preacheth or at least publisheth by reading the word of God and administreth the Sacraments to the people therefore in charitie they ought to be accounted the Church of God Ph. The division of Parishes and such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ For then must almost all the Congregations under the Papacie be visible Churches for amongst them the Parishes are divided and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation And those Popish Congregations had the word of God dailie read nay and preached constantly and expounded in manie places by their Friers and Postillers as may be seen by their works in Print Nay and their verie Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them although most miserably corrupted and mingled with their own inventions They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time and have yet at least Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 11. Baptisme mingled with Popish Ceremonies of which the Cross is the worst and some other footsteps of a true Church And if these had made a Congregation a true Church poore Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ the Parishes being divided and the Churches furnished with such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of Yet he and others have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel and rejecting Christ and his pure worship in as much as there was no Reformation although it cost him and others their lives for their boldnes Entri Cook Judit pa. 352. Pr. You speak of dark Corners of the Land as if none were in better condition you may finde amongst the manie thousand Parishes of this Nation manie visible Churches of Christ and mine in particular Ph. I doubt not but there are manie visible Churches of Christ in this Common-wealth and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ Pr. My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted and the Church founded you know not the contrarie and therefore ought to admit it having so continued beyond the memorie of man until this day Ph. When was your Church founded Pr. You your self have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England before Poperie came to its height and the Ministerie and Churches were then setled and had succession from the Apostles daies shew me when the Succession failed Ph. If I should admit the place that you call Church viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Poperie yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance First it is to be considered that the whole Current of Historie agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Brittaine from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger which was almost five hundred years and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ during which time there were not above five of the Emperours who were either Christians or shewed favour to Christians but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors Heathens and worshippers of Idols some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ and drove the Professors into corners they not daring to meet in publick When the Roman Empire was broken or at least was grown to an ebb the Saxons invaded this Island and about the year foure hundred and fiftie the Brittains were beaten into Wales by Gormundus and thence grew the great Colledge of Moncks at Bangor with whom Austin contended And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens and had their Idol Priests Flammins and Arch Flammins like the late Bishops and Arch-Bishops for dignitie and Power and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ where is now your Succession Pr. But yet there were manie faithful Christians both Pastors and others in the worst times and I could tell you of manie who suffered Martyrdome for Christ's cause in this Nation and if we cannot prove Succession it is rather for want of the light of Historie then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchie and Idolatrie which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since we have a verie fair Succession Ph. This indeed manie of you boast of but it makes little for your purpose To omit to speak of the miserie brought upon this Land and the decay of the true Religion by meanes of the incursions or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time It is certain and you cannot denie it that all your successions both of Ministerie and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church or rather the Whore of Rome who had all at her devotion until King Henrie the eight drove out the Pope and kept Poperie Cath. Divine An. Caudreys Case P. 108.109 Bed l. 1. Hist Angl. ca. 22. 27. Pr. Well it s true that for about five hundred years untill the Reformation began the Bishop of Rome usurped authoritie over the Church of England but yet all did not submit alike some faithfull men escaped both Ministers and people as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards who grew in great number even in our Countrie about two hundred years before the Reformation From which time of Reformation you cannot denie but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church where there hath been a competent number of faithful people and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome for the Popes Supremacie was abolished by King Henrie the eight as you now said Ph. If the rejecting of the Popes Supremacie make your Parish a true Church then likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Popes Supremacie and have not received the Councel of Trent but have had a Pope a Cardinal of their own for manie years past And Cardinal Richelieu called a Prince of the Church was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterburie Marc. de vulson des Libert de'l Eglise Gallicane lib. 3. pa. 233.234.235 Pr. You cannot denie the Succession of faithful Ministers which if you admit you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation Ph. For your Succession it s a mear dream If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches then was there no Pastors of those Churches for although there may be a visible Church without a Pastor as when the Pastor dieth the Church is not unchurched yet can there be no Pastor of a Church unless there be such a Church in
being And for your Succession since the last pretended Reformation it was interrupted in Queen Maries daies when a Popish Priest was your Predecessor who had his autoritie from the Bishop who was a Papist and held of the Pope I could tell you their names if need were And neither that Priest or any of his Successors ever since have had any other calling or Ordination but from the Bishops as long as they were standing Pr. If this were true touching Succession yet you cannot denie but that we have the word and Sacraments and a companie of faithful Christians communicating in those Ordinances under a faithfull Pastor are a visible Church of Christ Ph. Touching the Word and Sacraments I have alreadie given you an answr and indeed the Papists and almost all Hereticks pretend as you do and have the word amongst them and their Ministers or Priests have as orderly a Calling and Ordination as yours have and yet this makes them not the true visible Churches of Christ as all you do acknowledg Pr. I do not conceive that the Papists have either the Word or Sacraments amongst them for that the word is so corrupted by their false Glosses and Translations that it s made a leaden rule to be bowed everie way to serve their own turn for upholding their superstitions and their service is in Latine which the common people understand not And for the Sacrament of Baptisme it hath so manie additions that the Nature of it is destroied And for their Ministerie they are professed Papists and adversaries to Christ in all his Offices Ph. I do confess their Ministers are no Ministers of Christ but lims of Antichrist in respect of their Callings yet I do not condemn them all as Reprobates no more then I do Pope Gregorie the great Thomas a Kempis Ferus Stella and other their Preachers whom I think to have been godly and devout men in their times And for corrupting the Scriptures if putting false Glosses upon them make Gods word cease to be Gods word then are you Formalists deeply guiltie for the vulgar Translation is abominably corrupt and yet you allowed it and manie of you used it translated in the late Service-Book And all that you alledge for your succession of Ministerie and visible Churches your Classes Councels and Synods their autoritie over other Churches compelling others by the Temporall Power to believe and worship God as they see best is in effect grounded upon or agreeing with the corrupt Glosses and notes of the Rhemists upon the New Testament and other popish Authors and thence fetched by the late Formalists to defend themselves against the Puretans And for the Latine Service it is much like our Organ Anthems both edifying alike and the one as tollerable as the other See the old Protestant and New Formalist Pa. 36.37 And concerning the Papists addition of Cream Salt Spittle c. to the Sacrament of Baptisme I confess the addition wicked and abominable and yet no worse haply nor so bad as the Cross which you received and used for that serves to blesse or rather conjure all the rest and is honored with Divine honour and an holie daie appointed for it And yet I must tell you that with one consent you allow of this Sacrament administred by the Papists who do not administer it but with these additions to be a true Sacrament And you hold that those who were baptized by Papists are not to be rebaptized Pr. For my part I have cast off these corruptions and am constant to those principles tending to Reformation which others my Reverend Brethren of the Clergie have approved of and I am now about to set up the Government of Christ in my Parish Ph. I fully understand your designe you and your fellowes intend the old but not the oldest way of pretended Reformation wherein you shuffle and cut as fast as Hocus Pocus and your proceedings are so ridiculous that everie indifferent capacitie hath light enough through your figleaves to see your nakedness Pr. Wherein are we guiltie of such shufling or why are we so ridiculous Ph. In your proceedings for upholding your Parishes you pretend one thing viz. Reformation but your end and designe is to avoid the danger of loosing your Livings in case the Parishes should be dissolved Pr. I know nothing we do for which we can be justly censured we continue our preaching and do endeavour to settle Presbyterian Government according to Gods word Ph. For your preaching I earnestly desire you may sincerely applie your selves to it for that probably may do some good but for your other fetches and devices they savour more of Politicks then Religion squared by Gods word Pr. What Policie can there be in setling the Presbyterian Government with the Classes and Synods we settle nothing but what we are willing likewise to submit unto and to be judged by as well as the people Ph. Let the Government be what it will so your Livings and estates may be secured it s no great matter if the Parlament please but to declare that all your Parishes are visible Churches that you may hold them intire and the people be inforced to pay you all your Tithes Oblations obventions Mortuaries and other dues you will be satisfied and wait for further Reformation when it may stand with your honour and profit And upon that condition you will submit to the present Government of the Common-wealth But if your interest in these things be interrupted or in danger you know no other way to secure them but by setling this Government And this is the mark at which you shoot take but a view of those places your own Parish for one where the Elders are chosen do they serve for anie thing but Cyphers or do you and they act anie thing towards Reformation but meerly to this end and purpose Pr. I do confess if the Churches were equall or independent so there were Government as well in Church as Common-wealth and other things in order it might be well And where the Elders are chosen if Reformation go not on it is because the Elders refuse to act or joyne with the Minister Ph. I confess I know some nominated for Elders who make scruple to joyne with you in your business haply because they have found out your deceit which is meerly to make a shew of Reformation but your chief end is the securing your Livings Pr. That is not the cause of their refusal it is because the Parlament doth not arme them with power to execute their Offices and compell obedience to their injunctions as is fit for Ecclesiastical Magistrates Ph. If your proceedings were of God you would not need the secular Power to compel to obedience such as are within the Church and for those which are without you have nothing to do with them The censures of the Church are Gods Ordinance for that end and are most effectual But for that compulsive power you speak of it savours of the Tyrannie of
Antichrist and so doth your title of Ecclesiastical Magistrate which title I have not heard used by anie Orthodox Minister since the Lord Bishops those Popish Ecclesiastical Magistrates were cashiered who were indeed neither Magistrates nor Ministers but like the Pope between both Pr. I confess the Elders formerly chosen some years since in my Parish have refused to act to my great grief But now lately I my self and the Church-wardens have nominated others and the Parish have assented to the choice and although the persons chosen will not take upon them the Office of the Eldership yet they have assented to joyne with me in debarring the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table which is a chief point of Reformation and I rejoice much in it Ph. How did you prevail to bring the business so far Pr. I had found some difficultie in it but that at last I gave the honest partie who best liked our proceedings good satisfaction and so the choice was verie free and unanimous none opposing Ph. How was that possible seeing all the people within your Parish liked not of your proceeding how came it to pass that none declared against it Pr. I do confess some few there are in my Parish whom I knew to be of contrarie judgement and some stick not to say our proceedings are Antichristian and have no foundation in the word of God but I took a course to have all such absent when the matter was debated and at the choice of those Assistants Ph. What course did you take I desire to know for I have heard you censured for that business Pr. First I conferred with the wealthiest best and most leading men in my Parish before I came to the choice some in private and some in companie with others at several meetings and gave them satisfaction and these I knew would draw the most of the common sort And for the rest whom I knew I could not convince I warned them publickly in the Church to absent themselves and by message privately I desired such as I thought would oppose to forbear to hinder us in that business And by this means and by telling the men who were to be chosen that they should only assist mee in keeping the scandalous and ignorant from the Communion and do nothing els they assented and I hope whll cheerfully joyne with me in that work Ph. Now do you think this is a sufficient Reformation Pr. It is a principal part thereof we must wait untill we can bring on the rest Ph. It seems there your pretended Elders are no Elders but assistant I am sorrie you have shewed your self so bold as to set up a new Office in your pretended Parish Church shew me where ever anie man pretending to be a Minister of Christ by himself or with two three or four more usurped that power over a thousand persons as you and your new fashion Elders if they be rul'd by you intend to do I confess in the Popish Congregations and lately here in England the same was practised The Bishop or his Chancellour with a Presbyter or Minister did excommunicate or debar from the Sacrament but in worst times no man could be suspended without a Presbyter joyning in that act And the Church-Wardens which are yet in request were assistants to the Priest as your new fashion Elders are and both alike keep Christ out of his Kingdom and so most suitable to your Parish Churches which are not fit for lawfull Elders no more then they are capeable of lawful Ministers Pr. I have erected no new Office but the same which the Scripture holds forth only their power is limited by mutual assent of them and the Minister And for the exercise of that power in keeping the scandalous and profane from the Sacrament it is included within and is part of their Office Mat. 18.17 where the Church signifieth the Ministers and Elders who are the representative Church for the rest it s answered before Ph. That question concerning the Church I will not enter into but leave it to the learned who have sufficiently discussed it But for my part I am confident no such construction can be made of that place for the Church alwaies signifieth the whole bodie Ministers and people or the members distinct from the Officers Pr. This question being one of the principles upon which all the Controversies between us and the Independents are founded I shall wholly wave you you have heard my opinion in publick to which I adhere and shall do untill I see better cause to alter my judgement Ph. Let that pass but what was the reason why you carried the business of chusing your pretended Elders so clandestinely and with such policie without hearing other mens opinions who were of contrarie judgment Pr. To tell you the truth I feared opposition and that the work may be hindered and therefore I desired to avoid all occasions and to carrie on the work as smoothly as I could and I am glad of it Ph. It s a sign you think your mettal is naught because you fear the Touch-stone The truth seeks no corners but in light shines more clearly Pr. The truth may have opposition and yet is the same still We fear not the touchstone but the sleights of men who most oppose those things which are best Ph. It seems now you have your desire what proceedings have you made towards Reformation do your pretended Elders act according to your minde do you think they perform their dutie Pr. Yea truly I have much comfort in them and doubt not but we shall separate the precious from the vile and yesterday we made a verie hopeful beginning insomuch as they undertooke to do in joyning with me to keep the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table Ph. What course did you take to make that separation Pr. The Elders refer it to me to examine all those who were to communicate the week before they came to the Sacrament and accordingly I published my intention not to admit anie who did not come to the Church at the time appointed to be examined And manie of my Parish came and submitted themselves to be examined accordingly Ph. Your pretended Elders are verie confident it seems they see with your eyes and hear with your ears But I pray you what did you finde by examining those who came to you and concerning what did you examine them Pr. I questioned those whom I suspected to be ignorant about the grounds of Religion and touching the nature of the Sacraments and and for others whom I feared not I did not examine them at all although some of those came to me and others sent in their names and I entred them all in a Book as well such as appeared as those who sent in their names and did not appear Ph. But did you all this your self I mean examine the people judicially in order to their admission to or suspension from the Lords Table and that by the advice of your