infirmities is the same Strong Handsome Healthy Man that he was when at twenty five or thirty years old Dub. Thô I have sometimes much reverenced the Church of Rome for her antiquity yet now I begin to doubt that there are many diseases in the body of that Church many wrinkles in her face which were not from the beginning but not withstanding those infirmities 't is the same true Church as 't was at the first plantation as the old decrepite man is the same man that ever he was for substance Firm. I deny not but that the Church of Rome is in some sence the same it first was in respect of divers Articles it holds but in respect of those gross errours it now maintaines 't is no more like what it was then the old decrepite diseased man is like what he was in his younger dayes Dub. Your comparison is very good and apposite to the present Church of Rome which past dispute is full of dangerous and desperate diseases as I in part do apprehend I pray you proceed to my other motive Firm. The Church of Rome is not so universal as her disciples boast of neither in respect of place or time 1. 'T is the observation of a learned man that if the world were divided into 30 parts 19 of them are heathens 6 Mahometans and 5 Christians of which the Papists are not the one halfe as Mr. Breirwood in his Enquires does demonstrate 2. As to the universality of time the Church of Rome cannot deduce her present tenents from the beginning of Christianity through the several ages or Centuryes that it has continued a Church from the first preaching of the Gospell I deny not but that 't is the same for purity of Doctrine as once it was is most false for the antient Church of Rome never taught worshiping of images praying to Saints that monstrous transubstantiation halfe Communion Praier in an unknowne tongue and many more Groundless fopperies against Scripture the general consent of fathers common sence and reason Dub. All this I am inclined to believe but how could these errours creepe into a Church which did so punctually observe the traditions of their forefathers what the Church of Rome now believes and teaches it received from the Church that was in the next age before it that from the Church next before it and so quite down to the Apostles times as the Author of the Dialogues betwixt the Vnckle and the Nephew hath most learnedly demonstraâ—ed Firm. Truly very learnedly even as Zeno proved there was no locall motion you have heard how Diogenes confuted him by an ocular demonstration were not the Scribes and Pharises great pretenders to a Strict observation of the traditions of their fathers And yet we know how grosly they had corrupted the law of Moses as is evident by our Saviours confutation of them Mat. 5. and in severall other places Dr. Crakanâ—thorp and other Learned prâ—â—â—stants do evidently shew the beginning the progress of the Corruptions of the Church of Rome the manner of their spring and Growth but Suppose we cannot punctually tâ—ll the beginning and progress of such and such an errour shall we therefore believe it to be no errour you walk sometimes in the fields 't is evident to your eyes that the Grasse aâ—d graine do grow though you do not see them move at all sometimes you visit a friend that is sick of a languishing consumption you see by infallible symptoms that your friend is in a desperate Condition will you not believe him to be so because you cannot tell the time when or the manner how his disease came upon him Dub I cannot be so unreasonable and by what you have said my third reason falls to the Ground for the present Church of Rome has no agreement with the primitive but is extreamly opposite to it in the points before named besides many others I pray let me hear what you can say against their unity for they seem to be firmly united under one infallible head the Pope Firm. Truely Sir they do but seem so for they are miserably divided in the great fundamentall of their faith their infallibility and are not they very unjust to us to exact our beliefe of that which they themselves know not where to find for some of them tell us 't is fixed to the Popes chair some say 't is to be found in a Generall Councell otâ—â—rs believe it to be in neither but in both united together others would perswade us that 't is in the whole body of the Church so that if you seek after this pretty knack of infallibillity you will be abused as young apprentices are used to be in great Cittys and corporations who in waggery are sent from shop to shop for a penyworth of Ell-broad Packthred or a pound of stock-fish Tallow or a Lefthanded Shuttle after these poore novices have been sent from one end of the Citty to the other they returne home without such ridiculous Commodities and are sufficiently exposed to laughter and derision There 's scarce a Controversy in all Bellarmin's voluminous workes wherein he recites not the different opinions of the Roman Catholicks among themselves insomuch that this great Cardinals workes were not to be bought in Rome as Sir Edw Sandyes reports in his Europa speculum because he had so imprudently discovered the nakednesse of his mother in point of unity To say nothing of the contentions betwixt the Thomists and Scotists Ochamists c 't is pleasant to see how sweetly the Dominicans Franciscans Iesuites Molinists Iansenists Regulars and seculars agree together Though a laté Pope durst be so bold as to decide a Controversy for the Molimists against the Iansenians and so that which was none before very luckily became an article of Faith such is the Popes omnipotent Power that he can create Articles of Faith out of that which was a pure noâ—-entity a very nothing in the primitive times yet I heare that the Iansenists are so saucy as to continue very Iansenists still notwithstanding his holinesses inâ—allible determination Dub. I see there is no such unity in the Church of Rome as they bragg of I desire to heare what you can say against the Sanctity of their Doctrine Firm the Sanctity of their Doctrine referrs to that of Faith and Manners for that of Faith which is briefly comprehended in the Apostles Creed or any other Doctrinall poynt contained in holy Scripture expressly or by good consequence deduced from thence by the generall consent of Fathers we allow of but as for popish additions of new atticles by Pope Pius the 4. and the councell of Trâ—nt that are against Scripture and can never be justified by the generall consent of the ancient Doctors of the Church we reject as false and consequently not Holy this I suppose you will demâ—nsâ—rate when you please to give me the reasons which made you forsake the present Church of Rome As to their Saâ—ctity of manners their
either 2. They are under a judiciall blindness God has given them reason and understanding eyes that they might see hearts that they might understand but they wilfully shut their eyes against that light and then by the just judgment of Almighty God this light is taken from them they are given up to blindness of mind and hardness of heart as were the antient heathens Rom 1. 3. Their lives are utterly contrary to the holy nature of God to his sacred word there is an antipathy an emnity betwixt their Debaucheries their filthiness their profaneness and his most holy laws Rom. 8.7 every line of it flyes in their faces threatening them with hel and damnation whereupon they cavil with they quarrell against it they wish there were neither God to punish nor scripture to threaten Destruction against them and so by insensible degrees they are brought to think and say in their heart there is no God as the foole did Psal. 14. so true is that of the poet quod nimis miseri volunt hoc facile crâ—dunt the thoughâ—â— and imaginations of wretched men are governed by their desires they hate the light because their deeds are evil though their understandings are convinced by unansweareable arguments and reasons of the truth of these great principles yet they will not believe them such is the perverseness of their will that it either blinds their mind or else draws them against self Conviction to believe a Lye and to hold the conclusion against the most evident proofes and premises Dub. I am perswaded that you have given very good reasons why so many are Atheists and infidels and that the cheifest of them are irreligious and prophane livers that practical Atheisme is the greatest cause of that which iâ— dogmaticall or Atheism in opinion 'T was the foole that said in his heart there waâ— no God first he was a foole i. e. a sinner and very wicked as he is discribed in that psalm and thence he proceeded Atheist a foole in practise and then a fool in judgment for t is most certain that a corrupt and wicked life is the true parent of ungodly and vile opinions froâ— which by Gods blessing upon your good endeavoures I am now delivered and am fully perswaded that God is and that he is a rewarder of all those that diligently seeke him that the holy scripture is undoubtedly the word of God and consequently that the Christian Religion is the onely true religion but observing that of those who profess this Religion there are severall parties and t is not unknown to you that heretofore I have adhaered to the Church of Rome I would willingly learn from you which party they of Rome or we of England be most Orthodox and Catholick Firm Your demand is rationall I shall most willingly Gratifie you in itâ— oâ—ely you must give me leave to propose these Two questions to you and let me receive your answâ—r unto them at our next meeting 1. What Inducements you had to turne to the Church of Rome 2. What Reasons you had to leave it Dub. You must give me leave also to recollect my selfe that I may be â—he better able to give in my answer to your Quaeries DIALOGVE III Against POPERY Firm. I Hope you have well considered of the questions which I lately proposed unto you Dub. To the first I returne this answer My reasons that induced me to adhere to the Church of Rome were these 1. The Antiquity of that Church which has continued ever since the Apostles time when by the testimony of St. Paul her faith was spoken of throughout the world Rom. 1.8 2. The universality of it no Church has spread it self so farr and nere upon the face of the earth as that of Rome 3. Her consent in Doctrine with the primitive Church 4. The unity of it under one infallible head which cannot err in poynt of faith or manners 5 The sanctity of it's Doctrine that 't is free from errour in matters of â—aith free from all immorality and improbity in point of manners 6. The sanctity of life in the authors and first-fathers of the Roman Religion these were the chief motives that caused me to adhere to the Church of Rome Firm. Indeed these are six of those 15 notes which Bellaâ—mine Lib. 4. de not Eccle. and others of his perswasion appropriate to that Church but had you not some other inducements As first a vitious life and the cheap and easy pardon of your Sins upon confession of them to a priest his absolution and injunction of a pitifull pennance 2dly were you not under some discontent for your present low Condition or 3dly were you not ambitious of preferment deeming popery to be a ready way to it or 4thly were you not tickled with the Cunning extolling of your excellent parts by some subtile Jesuite lamenting your sad Condition that a person oâ— so rare endowments should be so miserably mistaken in the great concern of your Soule perswading you that out of the Church there is no hope of salvation and that you being no member of the Church of Rome were past all peradventure out of the Church and unlesse you returned to that Church there could be no hope of your salvation or lastly before you set up for the Church of Rome were you serious and conscientiouâ— in any Religion for 't is very easy for one that is of no Religion that makes no consciencâ— of his waies being allured with the joyeâ— of heaven and affrighted with the terrours of Hell to pitch upon any Religion that confidently promises those and as confidently a freedome from these and we know that Priests and Jesuites want neither art nor impudence to perswaâ—e silly wretches that hopes of Heaven and deliverance from Hell are only to be found in their Church Dub. Truely Sir I am verily perswaded that many who have left your Church and gone over to that of Rome have stumbled at such straws but you have known me long to be a man of no vitious life no male Content not ambitious of honour or preferment not apt to be paffed up with a proud conceit of mine own parts not cold or carelesse in point of Religion but the chiefe reasons that moved me to goe over to the Church of Rome were those before named which made me believe that Church to be the only true Catholick Church out of which there could be no hope of salvation to these I beg your answer Firm. And you shall have it 1. The doctrine of the present Church of Rome which alone could denominate her ancient Catholick and Apostolicall is in severall weighty points quite contrary to holy scripture neither hath it the generall consent of the fathers and Doctors of the Catholick Church the prâ—sent Church of Rome is no more like to what it once was in the purest primitive times than an old decrepit man full of diseases Gout Stone Palsy Dropsy Scurvey Blindnesse Deafnesse Wrinkles and a multitude of
Doctrine is so farr from it that the better sort of heathens would blush to own for brevity sake I shalâ— reâ—err you to the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme the Jesuites morralls set out bâ— a Sorbon Doctor Mr. Fowles his History of the treasons and rebellions of these holy men the two former of these bookes assure us that by the Doctrine of probability and a good intention the fowlest Sins are at most but venial Dub. The Jesuites are but one party in the Church of Rome many oâ— their tenents and practises disclaiâ—â—d by other of the papists and therefore the whole Church is not chargeable with their errors Firm. Untill that Church doth expresly Condemn thâ—m and Execute Ecclesiasticall Censurâ—s upon such of her members as do broach those damnable Doctrines doth make them recâ—nt or excommunicate them she is chargeable with them Dub. I am of your opinion and do firmly believe the pâ—esent Câ—urch of Rome to be neither Holy nâ—â— Câ—tholiâ—k but an unsound member of that Church but what say you to the first â—oundeâ—s and â—athers of their Church were not tâ—ey vâ—ry 〈◊〉 men Firm. â— Bâ—llarmine could prove what he takes for granâ—ed that tâ—e Fathers and Founders oâ—â—heir Chuâ—ch as it now stands were the hoâ—y Patriarchs Prophets and Apostles I should agree with him in that note but the truth is they have no more right to call them their Fathers and Founders then the Scribes and â—harisees had to caâ—l Abraham their Father from whose faith they had so miserably declined the Fathers of the present Church of Rome as 't is now were the corrupt Councells which were so many pack'd Juryes and the popes of whose Sanctity you may consult Platina who was a Papist By what I have said I hope you are satisfied that you had no justifyable reasons to adhere to the Church of Rome as 't is now so much declined from the Primitive let me know how and why you did forsake it Dub. I am fully satisfied that the reasons which drew me over to that Church were false and fallacious and am now as much confirmed that the reasons which made me leave her Communion are solid and demonstrative 1. Which were her monstrous unnecessary imposible Doctrine of transubstantiation Firm. How do you prove that to be unnecessary Dub. The change of the bread and wine into the very body and blood of Christ is unnecessary because certain it is and they of the Church of Rome acknowledge it that there never was any such change in the Sacraments of â—he old Testament neithâ—r is there any in the other six of the New as the Papists are pleased to multiply them now if all other Sacraments without any such miraculous change do attain their ends for which they were instituted why should it be required in the holy Eucharist why not rather in that of baptism why should not the baptismall water be changed into Christs very blood this being the Sacrament of Regeneration that that of Nutrition surely as great a power and vertue is required to regenerate and make a Christian as to nourish and strengthen him Again the faithful both before and under the law did eate and drink the body and blood of Christ in a Spiritual manner before he had either body or blood They did eat the same Spiritual Meat and dranke the same Spiritual Drinke 1. Cor. 10.3 what need is there then of a Transubstantiation If we seriously peruse the sixt Chapt of St. Iohns Gospel we may learne that the body of Christ is eaten and his blood dranke in a Spiritual manner that when the Disciples murmured at what our Saviour had delivered in the former verses to satisfye them he replyes that the words which he spake were spirit and life Ver. 63. and not to be understood according to their gross conception I know some the Church of Rome affirm that in â—hat Chapter our blessed Saviour speaks not of a Sacramentall eating of the body of Christ but certainly is his body may be eaten and his blood drank without any such monstrous change by every true beleiver not Receiving why may not he eat the body and drink the blood of Christ without any substantiall change of the Bread and Wine when he receives besides â— most if not all of the ancient fathers who held a necessity of giveing the Eucharist to infants urge the 53. verse of this Chapter for their opinion and practise except yee Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his Bloud ye have no life in you Surely therefore they conceived that our Saviour meant by these words a Sacramentall eating how then dare any of the Clergy of the Church of Rome expound it otherwise seeing they take an oath never to expound Scripture but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers see the forma juramenti professionis fidei Conc. Triden Sess. 24. Cap. 4. de Reformatione Firm. I very much approve your reason against the necessity of transubstantiation Let me here from you why you tearme it monstrous and impossible Dub. 'T is therefore monstrous and impossible because it implyes Contradictions and grosse absurdities 1. that a body is not a body an accident is not an accident for if there should be such a change the sâ—me numericall body of our Saviour must be in Heaven and Earth nay in ten thousand places at the same time â—it must be extended and not extended it must have dimensions and no dimensions finite and not finite which cannot be no not by Gods omnipotent and absolute power how do the schoolmens Noddles abound with nicetyes quidditys perseities Chimaeras to solve such incompossibilities 2. This strange Metamorphosis doth make accidents to be no accidents it takes away the very being of them for accidâ—ntis esse â—st inâ—sse the being of an accident is in-being here must be Colour sapor odor quantity without a Subject which is all one as if we should say a man might be a man without a reasonable Soule In a word I would willingly learne what does become of Christs Body and Bloud after 't is received into the mouth or if any prophane mouse should swallow part of it or lick up a drop of the bloud and thence into the stomach whether it be retransubstantiated into bread and wine or else be converted by the concoctive and nutritive faculty into the body of the Communicant as other nourishment is and then t will necessarily follow that Christs Body is essentially united unto and made one with the Body of every Communicant which borders very nere upon Bâ—asphemy for by this means Iames Nailer will ere long quod animus mâ—minisse horret be Jesus Christ. 3. This Transubstantiation if any such thing were possible is wrought by a miracle but was ever any miracle done by Christ and his Apostles which was not discernable by the sences when â—e cured the blind the dumb the lame when he turned water into wine was not this manifest
introduced that it should be received by the Preists only in both kinds by the people in one is not this with the Socinians to make the Sacraments mere indifferent Ceremonies alter able at the Churches pleasure But the Councell of Trent flyes higher if any man shall say that all faithfull Christians by Gods Command or for necessity of Salvation ought to Receive the Sacrament in both kinds let him be acursed I wonder whether Pope Gelasius sate in or was out of his infallible Chair when he roundly said we find that some do abstain from the Chalice of the Sacred Blood let them receive the entire Sacrament or be kept from the whole because the division of one and the same mystery cannot be without grand Sacriledge Either the Pope was not infallible or the present Church of Rome is most Sacrilegious Firm. You rightly Judge and were their fancy of Transubstantiation true as nothing is more false and ridiculous yet were it not sufficient to debar the Laity of the Cup because they receive the Blood of Christ with his Body for this is not to drinke but to eat it and besides the Sacrament is not a sign of his Blood in the veins but as 't was shed and powred out might not the Preists as well receive his Blood with his Body and then 't were as superfluous for them to drinâ—e of the Cup as for the people but I pray proceed in your reasons against Popery Dub. My third reason is taken from the invocation of Saints departed which is against Scripture and antiquity 't is an attribute belonging to God alone that â—he is a God hearing Prayers 'T is a chiefe part of his worship thou shalt Worship the Lord thy God and him oâ—ely shalt thou Serve it robs Christ of one part of his Preistly office who now sitts at Gods right hand interceding for us there is but one Mediator betwixt God and man the man Christ Iâ—sus certainly is holy men both before and under the law prayed to God alone through faith in the promised seed or Messias without invocateing any departed Saint because there was none then as they of the Church of Rome confess admitted to the beatifical vision and consequently could not know the need or praiers of men upon earth in the Glass of the Trinity there is less reason now to make our adresses to the spirits of just men made perfect Christ himselfe sitting at Gods right hand and Interceding for us Besides the worship of Angells is forbidden by St. Paul Col. 2. and the Angell in the Revelation twice sorbade St. Iohn to worship him Cap. 19. and 22 yea the worshippers of Angells were in the primitive times branded with the title of haereticks under the name of Angelici and therefore much less ought wee to worship the Saints departed for certainely they being the more excellent Creatures are much more capable of such worship then the soules of men that are now in Abrahams bosome in Paradise not yet in that perfect bliss and glory which they shall enjoy when their soules and bodies shall be reunited but according to many of the fathers in a certaine and joyfull expectancy of it after the last and finall judgment where the place of their present abode is I shall tell you when â—he fathers are agreed about it For this Saint worship certain it is there is no express Scripture and 't is as certain there is no generall consent of antiquity let any man peruse Mr. Meads excellent treatise of the Apostacy of the latter times wherein 't is apparent how the Cannonizing of Saints in the Church of Rome agrees with the heathens Apotheosis their praying to them with the worshipping of Heroes their Dij Medioxumi their haveing severall Saints for Patrons of Particular Countryes Trades and Callings Phisitians for divers diseases like the heathens Dij Tutelares as may be seen in Chemnitius his examen and in other learned men Firm. You need not spend more words about this grosse superstition which is nothing else but a mixture of Christianity and Paganisme and of all the errours of the Church of Rome most dangerous for the Lord our God is a jealous God and will not suffer the honour and worship that is due to him alone to be given to any other Dub. I shall submit to your advice and proceed to a fourth reason against Popery which is their adoration of images so much condemned in holy Scripture what more expressly forbiden then image worship by the second Commandement which they of Rome have Cunningly left out in their mass books offices Primmers and Catechism's and without all shew of Reason asserted it to be a positive Command belonging onely to the Jews how demonstratively is the fourth of Deutronomie against it from the 12 verse to the 18 many other texts might be urged to the same purpose all which the Schoolmen endeavour to baffle by their Pittifull distinctions betwixt an Image and an Idol a picture upon a cloath and one ingraven in wood or stone betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which every Esurient Groeculus every mean Sciolist will smile at betwixt Mediatè Relutivè and Terminative which aâ—e distinctions at least some of them without a difference mere Chimericall phansies if a man shall seriously peruse the 13 and 14. Chapters of the Book of Wisdome which at Rome is Canonicall Scripture and consider what answers the Heathens returned to those that objected against them their Idol worship that they worship not the Image but the Numen or divine power it represented he will easily discern that the wiser sort of Heathens made as wise Appologies for their Image worship as the wisest Papists do for theirs As for the antiquity of this grosse superstition both Fathers Councels are against it as is evident from that excellent Homily of our Church concerning the perill of Idolatry if it be replyed t were the images of the heathens they opposed true 't is for in the first ages of the Church there were no others the Christians of those times abominateing all image worship but the reasons they give against the heathen Imagery wound the Church of Rome under the fifth rib no Christian Church did then use images in their oratoryes in after ages they were admitted only for an historicall use as may be seen in St Gregories writings who lived above 600 years after Christ true 't is by the Second Nicene Councell their worship was decreed and so this iniquity was established by a law such a one as that packed convention could legitimate and hence forward not only the pictures of Saints but of God himself and of the Blessed Trinity were set up in Churches which was an high dishonour to the Glorious Majesty of the Almighty to be portraid like an old Man and gave an occasion to ignorant people to conceive him to be so indeed hence I have heard some of them say when they swore by God that they
swore by a good Man by which 't is evident how the grosse superstition of the Church of Rome hath crooked silly Souls and that all such images are teachers of Lies very vanities as the Scripture shews and reason demonstrates For to say nothing of the Blasphemous images of God the Father and the holy Trinity doth not the image of any Saint whom these pseudo-Catholicks worship lie to their imaginations representing that which is not for nothing but the Soules and Spirits of those Saints do now remain so that whilest they picture and worship them in bodily shapes which pictures represent what is not they worship they know not what praying onely to the Soules of Saints yet phansying them in bodily shapes as when they lived here on earth how doth it concern all Serious Christians to beware of the Religious worship of any creature of Gods or mans makeing of Angell Saint or Image which is so expressly forbidden in the word of God And surely if we might worship the picture of a man which is mans Creature 't were much more rational to worship a true man yea the Son Moon and Starrs and all thâ— host of heaven they being all of them the Creatures of Almighty God Firm. You rightly conclude were not a judiciall blindness upon the eyes of our adversaries they could not be Guilty of so dangerous a suspition Dub. I shall trouble you but with one reason more for my forsakeing the Church of Rome which was breifely their praiers in an unknown tongue a practise manifestly contrary to plain Scripture and the antient Doctors of the Church a most unreasonable service opposite to that which we are to perform to Almightâ— God 'T is so bafled by St. Paul that all the learned â—en of the Roman party have nothing of sence or reason to answer and as for antiquity 't was not so much as thought upon in the first ages in the Church the Liturgies then every where were in the known and vulgar tongue otherwise how should the unlearned say Amen The practise of the Church of Rome is in this as in divers other of their fopperyes a very mistery of iniquity I could heartily wish that for the undeceiveing of ignorant Papists their Missales Pontifical's Breviaryes Lady Psaltres c. were translated into the English and other vulgar tongues that such poore deluded soules might see to what absurd prayers they say Amen to what childish ridiculous Ceremonies they â—ubmit I might here add the vain Reptitions of so many Ave-Maria's Pater-noster's upon their beads their saying of them at certain houres as a Pensum or taske or a Pennance to make a Compensation for their sins rather then as a willing serious duty from the heart and soule which is not Religious praying but a Childish saying of prayers a vain heathenish babling after the manner of an old wises charm resting in the work done as if the bare saying of prayers without any intention of the mind were the only end of praying or the effectuall â—ervenâ— prayer of a Righteous man Iam. 5.16 I might also add their cheating Purgatory their purchasing of pardons and indulgences for sins past and for many hundred yeares to come by sums of money sett downe in the Tax booke of their Chancery their Pilgrimages and bodily Severityes to expiate for the sins of their soules their allowing of Brothell houses to Gratiâ—ye the unmarried Clergy and others in their unclean Lusts for which the Pope receives a luâ—ty Pension But to deale truely with you no one thing wrought a greater dislike of Popery in me then their barbarous bloody Cruelâ—y towards those that they please to call Haereticks their savage inquisition their Parisian Irish and other massacres their marian Butcherings their intended matchless powder treason their poysoning and stabing of kings their Justifieing of Rebellion and all manner of wickedness by their right intention and Doctrine of probability as is to be seen in the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme in the Jesuites Morralls can such Villany such Cruelty and Christianity stand together did Christ and his Apostles propagate the Gospel with such Carnall weapons how severely does our Saviour rebuke his angry disciples when they would have called for fire from heaven to destroy the uncivill Schismatical Samaritans yâ—e know not what spirit yee are of for the son of man is not come to dâ—stroy mens lives but to save them Luk. 9.55 O that Christs pretending Vicar had the spirit of the meeke and holy Jesus These Sir were the reasons which moved me to forsake the Communion of the Church of Rome for upon this account I could not believe her to be the Catholick Church or any sound part of it but a very Schismatical Haeretical one that had departed exceeding much from Primitive Christianity from the faith that was once delivered to the Sainâ—s Firm. You have given very sufficient reasons for your departure from that unsound Church which may satisfie any serious considering Christian and you have saved me the trouble of any further addition to them I am now fully perswaded that you are neither Atheist Infidel or Papist pray you let me know what is your present perswasion and what Church you most â—pprove Dub. Truely Sir there are so many sects amongst the Protestants that I am in no small doubt with which of them to hold Commuion but my inclination leads me chiefly to returne to my old Mother the Church of England from which most unhappily as I am now convinced I heretofore separated however for the removâ—l of some scruples which yet remain with me â— earnestly desire you to give your selfe the trouble of a short discourse concerning the severall sects now in England Firm. I shall most â—readily gratifie you In this your very reasonable request nothing doubting but that I shall by Gods Gratious assiâ—tance remove all your scruples and fix you a true son of that Church which is the most Catholick Apostolical Church now exstant in all the world which those that do acknowledge the holy Scriptâ—re to be the infallible word of God the perfect Rule of all the substantialls of Christianity both for faith and manners and have some competent knowledge in the records of antiquity the want of which is one great cause of hâ—resy and schism as to be able to trace Christian Religion through the severall ages of the Church from the Apostles down to these presenâ— times I say those that do acknowledge these things cannot doubt of Dub. You much confirm me in what I have often heard from grave and learned men that one great cause of errours in Religion is ignorance in the writings of the ancient Doctors of the Church Councels and Ecclesiasticall histories this is not every mans work that have neither books to read nor brains to understand them and that tâ—e surest way to be an Orthodox Christian is by studying descendendo beginning with the records of the first century then
the folly and madness of this Phanaticism and from whence it sprang please you we will discourse of Anabaptisme pray you what do you think of that DIALOGVE V. against Anabaptisme Firm. ANabaptism is a most carnal and bloody Sect as appears by the History of Iohn of Leiden Knipperdoling wrot by Sleiden and Bullenger Dub. But what do you think of their opnion â—oncerning Infâ—nt Baptism I shall not trouble you with other of their Tenents which are common to them with other Schismaticks Firm. That Opinion of theirs is contrary to Scripture and the practise of the Catholick Church Dub. I have often heâ—rd them say That if there were any express Text in Scripture for the Baptisiâ—g of Infants they would allow of that practise Firm. Though there be no express place in Scripture for it as there was for Circumcising of Children under the law yet there are many Texts which do infer it by rational consequence What express Text is there for the Communicating of Woemen which nevertheless the Anabaptists practise have they not express Texts for obeying the Civil Magistrate for taking an Oath before him thou shalt swear the Lord liveth in justice in judgment and truth Thou shalt fear the Lord and swear by his name I call God for a recâ—rd upon my Soul an Oath for Confirmation is not was an end of all strife And we have the Angel in the Revelation which was never under the Levitical law swearing Yoâ— see here are express Texts for obedience to Magistrates and for taking an Oath before them yet the Anabaptists will not swear at all which is a moral duty enjoyned in the third CoÌ„mandment and how obedient they are to the Supream powers let Germany and England witness in our â—ate Civil Wars so that you may see that if there were an express Text for Infant Baptism they would not yeild unto it but follow their own wild imaginations Dub. Doubtless 't is grand hypocrisy to call for express Texts for Infants-Baptism and yet to act directly against such Texts in other points of Necessary duty Firm. True it is we have no express Texts for Infants-Baptism yet we have many that do necessarily infer it as that of our Savioâ—r suffer little Children â—o come unto me which he took in his Arms and Blessed certainly those that were capable of his blessing were capable of the seal of it The children of believers are said to be holy The promise is to you and to your children Go teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost All which places evidently shew that the children of believing Christians have as much right to baptism as the children of the Jews had to Circumcision unless we should say that the Lord was more gratious to the Jews then he is to us Christians and that the hand of his mercy is shortned to us which was so much stretched out to them If their Children were in Covenant with God as it is evident they were Deut. 29.11 then are the Children of Christians under the same priviledge unless any man can give a good reason to the contrary which must be drawn either froÌ„ the Mercy or Judgment of God There is no shew of reason to say 't was from his Judgment much less from his Mercy for who dare say 't is a mercy not to be in Covenant with God To these Texts of Scripture we may add the practise of the Catholick Church for Fifteen hundred years as appears by the writers in their several Centuries which is the best Commentary upon the Scripture The Fathers who lived in the first ages of the Church had a fairer oâ—poâ—tunity to understand the meaning of the Apoâ—tles and their immediate successors then we that live at so great a distance Tertullian one of the most Ancient of them confesseth the practise of Infant Baptism tho he does not approvâ— it Cyprian and Fidus would never have contendeâ— about the â—ircumstance of time if they had doubted of the lawfulness of the thing I mâ—y add to what has been said Either the Baptising of Infants is a small error or 't is a great and gross one if iâ— be but a small error an error of Charity towards poor Infants why did the Anaâ—apâ—iâ—ts in the late times of confusion separate from those Churches which did not impose it as a necessary conâ—ition of Communion with them If it be a great and gross one then the Catholick Church has maintained a gross error for Fifteen hundred years and upward How then was that promise made good unto it that Christs spirit should lead it into all truth and that the gates of Hell should not prevail against it Dub. Indeed those Texts of Scripture so well explained by the practise of the Catholick Church â—or so many years since the time of the Apostles is an evident argument for the proof of Infant Baptism but are you certain that Infant Baptism was practised in the Primitive times Firm. We are most certain from the writings of the Fathers in those times Irenaeus lib. 2. cap. 39. Origen lib. 5. in cap. 6. ad Rom. Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 8. ad â—idum Hieronymus lib. 3. contra Pelagianos Nazian Oraâ—iones in sacrum lavacrum Basil Orat. Exhort ad Baptismum Chrisost. Homil. 1. ad Neophyr Augustine lib. 10. de Gen. cap. 23. The custome of Baptising Infants is an Apostolical Tradition lib. 4. de Baptismo cap. 24. idem affâ—rmat Prosper lib. 22. de Vocatione Geâ—tium cap. 8. These three Fathers making use of the Baptising of Infants as an argument against the Pelagians who denyed Original Sin which practise of Infant Baptism these subtile Hereticks durst never deny because they knew 't was the practise of the Catholick Church Dub. 'T is strange thâ—t so mâ—ny Testimonies of the Antient Doctors of the Church with such evident places of Scripture before allegd should not silence these perverse men Firm. By terming them perverse you render a just reason why neither Scripture nor Fathers nor Arguments â—ill satisfie them few of this Sect or indeed of any other are Leâ—rned except it be their Leaders Popish Priests and Jesuits which spread such errors by design to make divisions among us that they might â—eign Now 't is no strang thing to see ignorance and perversness to dwell under the â—ame roof for whosoever is capable of Conviction must have some knowledg and reason that he may be able to understand the force of an argument when 't is proposed unto him as seduced Sectaries being men of very short discourse do not Besides that little portion of reason which remains in them is so beclouded with selâ—conceit interest and faction prejudice pride and uncharitableness thâ—t they have utterly loâ—t all use of it He that doubts of this let him discourse either with Quaker or Anabaptist and he will find them a very proud ignorant conceited perverse people Dub. I have sufficient experience of their Pride and Perversness
but leaving them to their own simple fancyes Enthusiasms let us proceed to the Presbyterians to which party I first adhered when I forsook the Church of England and and of all dissenters from thâ—t Church in my opinion they have the greatest shew of reason for their separation Firm. In my judgment they have less reason to separate then any other because they agree with us in Doctrinals and are divided from us because of some Ceremonies which are confessedly things indifferent and for some modes of Government viz. the Episcopal and Presbyterian of which tho the former be the best and most antient yet learned and most moderate men of both parties do acknowledg that neither of these Forms of Government are so essential to the being of a Church but that it may subsist and be a true Church under either of them potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse but more of this hereafter But before we begin our discourse about Presbyterie let us speak a few things concerning Independency for I have heard that you were somtimes of that perswasion Dub. True I was once an Independent or Congregational man buâ— seeing all Sectaries are in respect of Church fellowship Independeâ—ts and that these men for the most part have the same objections against the Church of England as the Independents make use of I thought it superfluous to trouble you with any particular discourse â—oncerning them Firm. There are Three things belonging to Independency which we have not discoursed upon as yet neither will they properly fall under debate in our intended Dialogue about Presbyterie if you please we will take a breif survey of them Dub. I willingly embrace this motion DIALOGUE VI Against Independency Firm. THe first thing that I except against in the Independency is the goverment practised in their particular Congregations without any jurisdiction one over another so that every of their Assemblies is absolute within it self without depending upon any Classical Diocesian Provincial National Church or general Counsel whence they have the name of Independents Dub. Is it true that they will noâ— admit oâ— any Superior power over their respective Congregâ—tions nor appeal in case of divisions among themselves unjust and injurious sentences given in their partial Judicatories Firm. They admit of no appeals or no coercive poâ—er over them in any Consistories Classis or Counsel One Congregational â—hurch may advise exhort or admonish another as brethren or equals but not punish or correct as Judges oâ— Superiors What do you say to this new knack of Church Government Dub. I think it to be Anarchical and confused the Natural Parent of all Schisms and Hereses I do not noâ— so much wonder how England of late years since this headless faction prevaild amongst us became a second Amsterdam What error what heresy so gross so damnable what injustice what oppression never so greivous which might not go unpunisht in such assemblys from which there lies no appeal how must they be broken into infinite fractions especially where the fear of a Common enemy does not unite and peice them together Firm. You rightly apprehend for all these dangers and inconveniences are the necessary consequents of Independent Congregations where any Popish Wolf in Sheeps Cloathing has a fair opportunity to sow the seeds of Anabaptism Quaquerism Socianism or any poysonous Heresy whatsoever to spread the principles of Sedetion and treason as has been of late to much practised in this Nation I wish such Tares be not still scattered in our separating Conventicles to this very day 'T was the observation of Sir Rob. Cotton above three-score yeaâ—s since that Priests and Jesuits did put on the habits of Captains Merchants c. that that they might deceive poor ignorant people under that disguise opera Posthu Pag. 148. Dub. You have said enough against this headless Church Goverment and the sad consequences of it I pray you proceed to the second thing you promised to debate concerning Independency Firm. The second error does concern tiths which generaly the Independents with other sectarys would perswade the world are a great oppression upon the people meerly Levitical and not due or lawfull under the Gospel Dub. I desire to hear from you what may be replyed to these cavils for I believe they are no better Firm. The paying of Tiths is no oppression upon the people no injury to them at all for if no free-holder Farmer or Tenant whatsoever ha's any legal or equitable right â—r title to the tenth part by purchase donation inheritance lease or by any other imaginable conveiance then the paying of Tiths can be no injury at all but the free holder Farmer or Purchaser ha's no legal right to the tenth part no more then the Minister has to the other nine because for many hundred years it has been invested in the Church by as good laws as any layman has right or title to the free hold Farm or lease which he has Purchased or pays rent for so that the tenth part cannot discend to any mâ—n by inheritance gift or puchase neither does any Tenant pay one Penny of rent to his Land lord for that part of the increase of Fruits Grain Grass or any other Commodity whatsoever Dub. Truly Sir I have heard as much and if Tithes were taken from the Church no question Landlords would raise their Rents and Fines and Purchasers would quickly find the price of land rais'd proportionably to a tenth part Firm. This is so plain that nothing but gross ignorance Envy and Malice against the Clergy can entertain the least doubt of it Dub. Sir you put me in mind of one thing which I have often thought upon and much wonderd at that generally those that go under the nâ—me of Protestants in your Church have little respect for their Ministers whereas Papists and Presbyterians shew great respect to theirs Firm. You need not wonder at it the true reason of this contempt is for want of Zeale to that Religion which thâ—y profess whereâ—s Papists and Presbyterians are Zealous in theirs But your meer formal Protestants of which number there are too many is a formal nothing one that is so far from the power of Godliness that he has not the naked formality of it Now there cannot be a greater sign of an irreligious Atheist then contempt of the Clergy for where they are despised God cannot be honoured nor Religion had in esteem if the Gentleman that has assigned reasons for the Contempt of the Clergy had thought on this t' would have been worth all the reasons in his whole Book but it may be he was so much a stranger to his own heart that he thought not of it Dub. But are not many Ministers themselves a chief cause that they are so contemned Firm. I was about to tell you so 't is much to be be wailed that too many in holy orders are through ignorance negligence in the duties of their calling loosness in
their lives and conversations very scandalous the greatest Nonconformists of all others not true to our Church and her injunctions in the most weighty matters placing all their Conformity in outward Ceremonies and neglecting what is most necessary for their own salvation and of those poor Souls which are committed to their charge which are in great danger to perish through the ignorance negligence and evil example of such blind guids Dub. But is not the poverty of many of them and the poor pittances allotted for their subsistence as great a cause of their contempt as any Firm. 'T is very true and 't were a work worthy of the Defendor of the Faith and a Religious Parliament to redress this very great grievance by uniting Little Churches by finding out some effectual means for restoring of Impropriate Tithes and Glebs to their respective Ministers which Impropriations are the very dregs of Popery and a grand Sacriledge in any one that shall detain them from the Church Dub. I do a little wonder why you should câ—ll Impropriations Popish seeing many of those who took up arms against King Charles the First diâ— it upon thâ— account of opposing Popery and hindering the groâ—th of iâ— in this â—â—nd and yet some of them are no â—mall Iâ—pâ—opâ—iaâ—ors Firm. Certainly there was never a more manifest peicâ— of hypocrisy in the world for men to be so seemingly zealous against the superstitions of Rome and yet be so deeply in love with her Sacriledge Surâ—ly there is some marvellous sweetness in Tiths and Church lands that prelatical Presbyteâ—ians all parties can swallow down such morsels without any scruple but let them take heed they prove not like that little Book Rev. 10.9 sweet to the palate but bitter in the belly Dub. Indeed I have heard that the Popes of Rome were the first and cheifest Authors of Impropriations and that they did alienate Tiâ—hs and Glebes from their respected Parish Churches for the maintenance of Abbies Priories Nunneries c. Firm. 'T is veâ—y certain that these alienations were made by the Authority of the Bishop of Rome for those uses and at the demolishing of those places those Impropriate Tiths and Church lands were either given or sold to Courtiers and other of the Nobility and Gentry which has proved the ruine of many Antient and flourishing Families and a very great hinderance to the growth of Religion for want of an able Ministry in many poor Parishes where according to the old saying Scandalous livings have made a scandalous Clergy and nothing would be a more effectual redress of this grievance then as was said before the Uniting of litle Parishes the restoring of Impropriate Tiths and Glebes to the Church together with a diligent inspection of the Bishops into the lives and learning of all those whom they shall either Ordain or Institute Dub. I am fully perswaded that the paying of Tiths is no oppression or injury to any man but the Independents and other Sectaries imagine that Tiths are a Levitical maintenance and therefore to be abrogated under the Gospel that Ministers now are to be maintain'd by a voluntary Contribution or at best to have a set stipend Firm. That Tiths received not their beginning from the Levitical Law is evident to any unbyased judgment from the example of Abrahams paying them to Melchisedeck of Iacobs vowing to give the Tenth of all that the Lord should bless him with from the Apostles large discourse about Abraham and Melchisedeck Heb. 7. By all which 't is evident that Tiths had not their Original from the Levitical â—aw and were not at first affixt to the Arâ—nical but to the Melchisedechian Priesthood As to that of Stipend and Voluntary Contribution 't is a meer plot of the Devil and Popish Emissaries to render Ministers contemptible by â—aking them Stipendiaries or Eleemosynaries directly contrary to what St. Paul has laid down The Elders that rule well are worthy of double honor which sufficiently evinceth that they ought to have an honorable maintainance and not to depend upon the cold and frozen Charity of the people I am sure St. Paul found his Corinthians very backward to supply the Ministers necessity in better times then these we live in like so many Stipendaries or Alms-men by which they will be forceâ— to Preach placentia or starve and suit their Doctrine to the humor of every Mechanick What a strange piece of non-sense is it that amongst our Congregational men the Minister should be the only poor Dependent 'T is most certain and evident to all that can make use of their reason that Gods way for the Ministers maintenance is the best which both before and under the Law given by Moses was by Tiths at least by God's approving of Abâ—aham's paying them to Melchisedeck ' â—was strongly insinuated that the great Lord of Heaven and Earth would in after times order and appoint that Tiths should be the maintenance for the Priest and Levite which has continued for many hundreds of years under the Gospel and there are many fair proofs from holy Scripture that they are due by Divine Right they are established by Civil and Ecclesiastical Laws are the most convenient and rational way for the Ministers support who by this meanes when the earth brings forth plenâ—ifully shares with the people in that blessing when less fruitfully as in times of scarcity suffers with them in this Calamity and thus partaking with them in blessings and affliâ—â—ions will be the fitter to Stir them up thankfulneâ—sâ— for the one and to press upon them the great duties of Patience and Humiliation under the other Dub. I did not doubt of the lawfulness and reasonableness of Tiths before we entred upon this discourse but now there is not the least scruple in me concerning them Firm. Therefore let us now proceed to another gross error maintaind by the Independents and other Sectaries about the electing of gifted Brethren into the office of Ministers Dub. That any gifted Brother any one that perswades himself that he has the Spirit and through a strong imagination conceives himself fit to Speak in the Congregation may without any farther tryal or lawfull call take upon him the office of Publick Preaching and Ministring in the Congregation which is the most sacred and weighty of of all other This is nothing less then a presumptuous usruping of the Priests office This I know to be the Opinion and practise of Independents and other Sectareis let me have your judgment of it Firm. That you shall most willingly And herein my judgment is that this is one of the most wild and Fanatick opinions that ever entred into the minds of men that it opens a wide gap to all Schisms and Heresies a certain cause of all manner of disorder and confusions in the Church upon this account Priests and Jesuits and all manner of Sectaries have had so fair an oppâ—rtunity to vent their poysonous Tenents in theâ—â— Independent Congregations Dub. I am fully
before intimâ—ted although under other names and I do somwhat wonder that neither Bishop Dean or Ganon so far as I know has hitherto vindicated these Churches from those reproaches which have been cast upon them by ignorant spitefull sacrilegious persons Dub. But do not we see that Bishops Deans and Canons do not joyn together in the goverment of the Church but rather are at variance and oppose one another are mostly Non-resident keep not that Hospitality which their Predecessors usually did and therefore they being thus useless 't were fit their lands were sold and imployed to better purposes Firm. This was your second exception against Cathedrals but a very frivelous one drawn from the worst Topick from personal abuses to take a way the true use of the thing it selfe This is meer Clowns Logick and makes as much against Parish Churcheâ— Schools Universities and all Courts of Justice as against Cathedrals The abuses ought to be taken away I am as much for a reformation as any man but not for an extirpation If Bishops Deans and Chapters do not joyn together in the Goverment of the Church 't is the fault of their Persons not of their Institution Deans and Canons ought to be of Councel to the Bishop in a subordinate way not to have cordinate power and Authority with him If they are too much guilty of non-residence as it cannot be denyed but that many of them are this ought to be reformd by Mulcts and Punishments but especially by those that have the power of collating those dignities that they do not confer them upon any person that lives out of the Diocess or at too great a distance from the Cathedral which is a very great abuse and wants Reformation As for the keeping of Hospitality the cavil is just the same which the Egiptyans had against the Isralits for not fulfilling their tale of Brick when they denyed them straw to make it Sacrilegious hands have Robbed Cathedrals of many of their rich Mannors and how should it be possible for Deans and Prebends to maintain that Hospitality which their Predecessors heretofore have kept I know a Canon of one of the most Auntient Cathedrals in England that his necessary expences in his Residence journeys being deducted did not receive de claro five pounds yearly for seven years in twelve Now according to the law of God and nature Families Wives and Children must be provided for and how can such necessary provision and any considerable Hospitality stand together out of an Hundred Marks or an Hundred Pounds of yeary Income which is more then some Cathedral Residentaries do receive to my knowledge I wish that those of the Gentry who have their Thousands of yearly Revenues would forbear their squandring away of their Rich Patrymonies in vanities and very sinful courses that they would keep Hospitality and Residence upon their own Rich Mannors amongst their poor Tenants and Neighbours who eat the Bread of carefulness and then they might with greater confidence câ—vil at the non-residence and wâ—nt of Hospitality in the â—lergy The best way to pull out the Moth which they discover in the Churches eye is first of â—ll to cast out the Beam which is in their own eye Second Whereas you object that Cathedral dignities are made subservient to the pride and luxury of the Idle and lazy Ministers my reply shall be very short If any such be â—rept into such places I shall not be their advocate but be ready to throw the first Stone at them But I pray you do not cast such dirt upon those who have laboured in the word and doctrine but esteem them worthy of double honor however the infirmities of old age have now seized upon them dimness of sight weakness of memory an hoarse voice and feeble lungs If these Cathedral perferments be great encouragements to younger men which none but Fools and Sacrilegious persons will deny VVhy may not such places be as so many Ecclesiastical Hospitals for these Milites emiriti old souldiers of Jesus Christ who have war'd a good warfare and though now they are less able to teach in the Pulpit yet may they instruct out of it by their grave and exemplary lives and sage councels 1. Tim. 5.17 Let the Elders that rule well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be worthy of double honor Dub. I beg your pardon for those hasty words that dropt from me against Cathedrals I clearly understand they are not so useless as the ignorance envy and malice of some men would render them Let me hear from you how you can vindicate them from defrauding Parochial Churches of their Tithes and Glebs by appropriating them to themselves Firm. This exception cannot totally be avoided yet Cathedrals are not so much in fault as the Supream power of the land which took away their rich Mannors and gave them in their stead lean and scandalous Impropriations which as some say was done in policy to prevent their total abolition which fate Abbies and Priories had lately sufferred under for those rich Mannors being exchanged for poor Impropriations Cathedrals were not now so sweet and lushious morsels to sacrilegious palates Dub. But is there no meanes to augment the maintenance of those Churches whose Tithes are Impropriate to Cathedrals Firm. At his Majesties happy Restauration there was a fair opportunity which offerred it self the like we cannot expect How easie had it been then to have setled a competent maintenance upon most Churches in the Nation Some augmentations by his Majesties appointment were then made I wish there had been more I know no other way to redress this grievance but by annexing some Prebends unto the Vicaridges of these Impropriated Churches which might be done in Cathedrals of the old Foundation where there are minor Prebendaries distinct from Residentiaries mean while those Parochial Churches are supplyed mostly by the Vicars Choral whose maintenance from their Colledge and privy Tithes received from those Churches where they serve is not contemptible I wish 't were better and that some of them by their industry and conscientious diligence in their Ministry did deserve a better subsistance at which wish no man can take exceptions but he that is guilty of ignorance or negligence in the duty of his calling which is his fault in being so and not mine in wishing it should be otherwise Dub. I perceive by your discourse that 't is rather the unhappiness then the fault of Cathedrals that Parochial Tithes are appropriated unto them but certainly iâ— Canons Residentiaries were Beneficed in or near the Citties where Cathedrals are scituate and a competent maintenance allowed them from the respective Cittizens the Vicars Choral those of them who are not Preachers might assist as Curates for Baptizings Burials and other inferiour Offices and so by the continual residence of the Bishops Deanes Canons and Vicars Choral the Chore service Preaching Catechizing Church discipline and Goverment might be much better performed then
men are apt to express toward the one and their cold disposition toward the other partly because 't is usual to let those things pass carelesly by our ears which we have often heard before or know we may haer again when ever we please and partly for that Sermons are new and fresh and if they slip by us for the present what excellencies soever they contain is lost which creats the grater atteâ—â—ion which causes the greater affections so far that worthy man This certainly is one great reason why set Forms of Prayer are so much undervalued in respect of extemporary and conceiv'd effusions Dub. I am abundantly satisfied that set Forms of Prayer are not only lawfull but very usefull in the Publike Service of the Church I shall now by your good leave descend to those exceptions which are made more particularly against the Liturgie of the Church of England First that 't is taken out of the Masse Book Secondly that it contains many shreds of Prayer which are short and customary wishes rather then serious and devout Prayers Thirdly that it appoints divers Apocryphal Chapters to be publikly read which contain things incredible and ridiculous As for those exceptions which are made against some particular passages in the body of the Liturgy they are so frivolous that they are not worth the trouble of a serious confutation he that pleases may see them sufficiently baffled by Mr Hooker Mr Ball himself a Nonconformist in his tryal of the grounds of Seperation with many others Firm. Your First excepâ—ion is the issue of Spite and Ignorance what though it contains many things that are in the Masse Book as the Creeds the Teâ— Commandments the Lords-Prayer and divers Collects Shall a true man refuse to take his goods and make the best he can of them because he finds them in a Theifs house Or shall the husbandman refuse pure wheat because 't was once mingl'd with chaff and tares albeit 't is now winnoâ—ed and sâ—fted Or shall we refuse Pauls Epistles because there are in them certain savory passages taken out of the writings of Idolatrous Heathens The Church of Rome was once a glorious Church true 't is it s now sadly corrupted yet as corrupt as 't is all is not chaff which that Church retains there remainâ— in her some good wheat which was in her before her novel superstitions were in their Swadling cloaths this wheat wee retain the châ—ff we hâ—ve blown away with a Fan of an orderly Reformation you see what a malicious cavil this is that our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Mâ—ss malice in some and ignorance in others have been the true parents of this groundless calumny 2. As to your Second exception that our Liturgie contains many short cuts and shreads of prayer pray you what do you think of the Publicans Prayer God be mercifull to me a sinner is any prayer in our Liturgie more short then that which our Saviour so well aproved Short ejacuculations concise forms Holy breathings of the Spirit are very frequent in the Scripture and past all peradventure very acceptable to Almighty God those that cavil at the shortness of our prayers and collects let them justify the length of theirs if they can from any one prayer in Scripture or Fathers that is a quater of an hower long Let any rational man who is acquainted with the nature of Prayer and humane infirmities seriously consider â—hether or no our Church has not carried her self very prudently both in the Method Phrase Form and ordering of her Service Are not all her holy Offices the matter and mostly the very words and choiâ—eâ—t portions of holy Scriptures what an unworthy calumny is it to tell the world our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Masse Could any thing be utter'd more fals and invidious those excellent Prayers She uses how are they â—itted to our infirmities mixed with Psalms Hymns and choise portions of Scripture is not this order and method more sutable to the weak capacities and unsteady attentions of the greatest part of the Congregation then a long extemporary Prayer for matter many times Heretical Schismatical Irreverent strangly bold unbeseeming a poor sinful Worme to offer up to the High and Dreadful Majesty of our Great and Good God Dub. I know by my own experience thâ—t long extemporary Prayers are very apt to dull â—nd deâ—den our attentions and I cannot deny but that sometimes I have been very much scandalized both at the matter as also at the un-Scriptural â—hantastical Affected expressions used in such Prayers which is not to be seen in the Common-Prayer Book whose phrase and words are very gravâ— and decent and being taken out of the word of â—od are most fit to be offer'd up to the Almighty God when we speak unto him in Prayer I am fully satisfied with the excellent Method Matter grave Oratory of the English Liturgie being 't is so consonant to and coresponding with the Holy Scripture So that I stand amaz'd at the impudence of those that first gave out that 't was borrowed from the Mass Book and at the dull ignorance of those that will believe so notoâ—ious a Lye The Book I acknowledge to be rarely compos'd and not onely useful in our publick Worship but also a very profitable directory for our Family private devotions Now to the last objection Were it not better that some Apochryphal Chapters were left out of the calender and Canonical Lessons set in their place Firm. Many learned men have indeed thought so and have wished for a change in this particular Mr Hooker has these words Those Ecclesiastical Books for so they were cald in auntient times not Apocryphal under which title were contain'd such Books which the Church allowed not at all to be read in publick I say those Ecclesiastical Books which in case my self did think as some do that 't were more safe and better that they were not to be read at all publikly nevertheless as in other things of like nature so in this I should be loath to oppose my private judgment against the force of their Reverend Authority considering the excellency of some things in all and of all things in certain of those Ecclesiastical Books which we publikly read and therefore I have thought it better to let them stand as a list or a marginal border unto the Old Testament and to grant at the least unto some of them publike audience in the house of God Dub. I do fully acquiess in the pious prudent and peaceable determination of this worthy man and so from the exceptions that are made against the liturgy I desire your discourse may proceed to those which are made against the Ceremonies of the Church 't is superfluous to name them all But only those which are most spoken against the Surplice the Ring in Marriage Bowing at the name of Jesus Kneeling at the Sacrament and especially the Cross in Baptisme which are said to be Popish and superstitions
Firm. As the Kingdom of Heaven does not consist in Meats and Drinks but in Righteousness and peace Rom. 14. so neither does it consist in gestures vestures or any thing that is in it self indifferent when the Church commands us to wear such a vestment or to use such a gesture for Uniformity sake and outward decency not placing any intrinsecal Holiness or absolute necessity in any of those Ceremonies 't is our duty and not any superstition at all to be obedient yea we are guilty of the sin of disobedience and superstition also if we stand out against lawfull Authority For there is a two fold Superstition one Positive as when we ascribe Holiness to any thing that is in its own nature indifferent morrally neither good nor evil another Negative as when we Dogmatize and call that evil which Morally is not so and in such things Weare not Kneel not is as much Superstition as Weare or Kneel possibly can be What is it to any understanding man whether he Prayes or Preaches in Black or White or any other Colour unless it be for decency and uniformity the power of the Church limits us to a White Surplice rather then to a Black Iump or short Cloak Dub. But is not this an intrenchment upon our Christian liberty to be confind to particular Modes and Forms Firm. Not at all So long as our practice only is limited and our judgment left free as before any such Canon was made 't is strang that the same men who enjoyned three Ceremonies at the taking of the Covenant as to be bare Headed bare Handed the right Hand lifted up should so much scruple them in our Publick Service But in a word 't is plain Scripture that every Soul should be subject to the Higher Powers not onely for wrath but also for Conscience sake Now unless the Non-Conformists can bring as plain Scripture against our Ceremonies to prove them morally evil they must incurr the sin of Schisme and disobedience to those powers which God has ordained and these are far greater sins then the wearing of a Surplice though we had borrow'd it from the Pope himself Dub. You mind me now of one of the greatest exceptions against the Surplice c. because the Papists use it in their superstitious Worship therefore 't is unlawful for us to wear it in ours Firm. If this were a good reason 't would follow whatsoever the Papists do use or have abused in their Superstition 't is unlawful for us who have abandoned such trash and I rumpery to use but Papists have abused our Churches halices and other Ornaments in their fals Worship and Services therefore we may not use them but down with them down with them even to the Ground Dub. This indeed will be a very necessary consequent but a very costly one I fear the men that make this exception would not be very forward to Build them up again if Idolatry and Superstition were a just cause to make us lay aside our Surplices by the same reason we must pull down our Churches and upon the same accompt the Primitive Christians ought not to have eaten meat offered to Idols neither to have made use of the Heathens Tempels to celebrate the Worship and Service of the true God Firm. You see then how frivilous the exception against the Surplice is and so are all those that are offer'd against the Ring in Marriage bowing at the name of Jesus Kneeling at the Sacrament the Crosse after Baptisme and therefore I shall very briefly pass them over 1. For the Ring 't is as Antient at least as Turtullian who lived about two hundred Years after Christ he makes mention of it more then once and our Church do's use it as an ancient Ceremony no ways essential to Matrimony 2. Bowing at the name of Jesus is likewise very Antient The reason of it was 1. To shew our readiness to yield obedience and subjection to him as our Lord and King to whom all power both in Heaven and Earth is given and to whom every Knee must bow Phil. 2.10 The Antient Christians rather bowed at the naming of Jesus then at the name of Christ in opposition to the unbelieving Jews who most of all Blasphemed that sweet and saving name of Jesus which therefore they did indeavour the more highly to exalt 3. To declare their certain belief of what the Apostle foreteâ—â— that at the name of Iesus every Knee should bow of things in Heaven things in Earth and things under the Earth that all things should be subject unto him Phil. 2. 3. Kneeling at the Sacrament our Church conceives to be the most humble and reverend posture and therefore most suitable to so high and Heavenly a Mistery especially it being Administred with a Prayer yet we do not condemn the practise of other Churches where this holy Sacrament is received sitting or standing neither should they condemn us for Kneeling because Christ's Disciples receiv'd it in a Table gesture to which we are no more bound then to the place or time in which they reciv'd it An upper Room and after Supper as the learned Dr. Sanderson has evidently demonstrated 4. The Cross after Baptisme is also a very Antient Ceremony which the Christians of the first ages used in a couragious and undaunted opposition against the Heathens and Jews who scoffed and derided them for beleiving in and Worshiping a Crucified God for their Saviour who could not save himself True 't is in process of time the Cross was abused to grose Superstition and therefore say some it ought to be laid aside as Ezekias abollished the Brasen Serpent when the people made it an Idol Dub. Much more ought the Cross to be taken away being abused to superstition because 't was but an humane invention where as the Brasen Serpent was set up by Gods own direction and command Firm. Very true but then let Ezekias do it not the people on their own heads without the Authority of the King However the use of an innocent Ceremony ought not to be taken away because of ' its abuse and here it ought to be consider'd whether it be better to use the Cross to put us in mind of our duty not to be ashamed of Christ Crusifi'd as also of the courage and boldness of the Primitive Christians who not withstanding the Scoffs and Reproches of Infidels would make such open profession of their Faith in Christ Crucified as to use the sign of the Cross not only in Baptism but also upon sundry other occasions or else whether 't were better to forbear the use of it because it has been so much abused to Superstition let the Suprem power judge which of these is fittest to be done and determine accordingly either for the Negative or the Affirmative and I believe every sober and peacable Christian will esteem it his duty to submit unto such a determination Dub. But seing these and other ceremonies have been and are a great scandal to
tender consciences and the occasions of many shâ—rp contentions amongst Christians agreeing in the substantials of Religion and seing that Conformists themselves confess them not to be in their own nature necessary but only expedient for order and decency were it not better they were laid aside then continued is they are the perpetual causes of discord and dissention amongst us Firm. And are order decency and uniformity without which there wiâ—l be neither â—ove Peace or Unity suâ—h inconsiderable nothings that a few innocent Ceâ—emonies must be utterly abollished to gratifie the dogmatizing humors of those men who esteem things in themselves indifferent to be sinful and unlawful which is sâ—â—t Superstition 'T is indeed much to be lamented that we should quarrel about Mint and Cummin to the prejudice of more weighty and material duties and the scandal of our Religion But by reason of our innâ—te and acquited corruptions 't is necessary that offences should come yet wo be unto that man by whom they come I know weakness and renderness of conscience is much pretended and we ought to take heed how we offend any of Christs little ones but how can these men be reckon'd in the number of weak or little ones who seem to themselves so great so strong and able in the things of Religion and for their tendernesse of conscienâ—e we appeal to their bloody civil Warrs 't is well known by whom and how they were began and carryâ—d on till at length they came up to the death of the King tho I believe very much against the intentions and designs of the most grave and sober men of that Party Dub. But really Sir were it not more beseeming Christian prudence so far to condescend to our dissenting Brethren who agree with us in the Doctrine of our Church in taking away at least some of those Ceremonies which are more liable to exception then to comply with the Superstitious Papists in the use of them Firm. I confess some moderate men have thought so especially since we are frustrated of of one main end for which our first reformers retained them which was to draw over the Papists into the Communion of our Church which they did adhere unto for the Ten first years of Queen Elizabeth until they were interdicted by the Popes bull But seeing we are deprived of all hopes of that much desired issue and that by the cunning of Priests and Jesuits stirring up and animating the Conformists and Non-conformists against each other about these Ceremonies Our differences amongst our selves do daily increase and multiply some wise and peaceable men have desired that the use of certain of those Ceremonies might be forborn at least for a time which not withstanding they are still continued These peaceable men abhor the great sin of Separation do continue their conformity to the rites of our Church daily begging at the throne of Grace that the God of truth and peace would for his mercy â—ake so assist those powers which he has ordained that they may be instrumental for the establishing of truth and peace amongst us Dub. I like well of the temper of these men and wish that their moderation were not only known unto but practised by all men for certainly if the Spirit of love peace and meekness did rule more in our peevish and froward hearts we should enjoy a greater measure of Peace Love and Christian Charity then these angry times have hither to been happy with I return you my hearty thanks for that satisâ—action which you have given me in those scruples which have much troubled me about the Goverment Liturgie and Ceremonies of the Church of England there is yet one thing behind at which I have somwhat been scandalliz'd 't is this Your Church does receive persons who are notoriously proâ—hâ—ne in their lives and grossly ignorant in the principls of Religion to the Holy Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ besides she tollerates at least Ministers that are scandalous in their conveâ—sâ—tion frequenters of Alâ—-houses not at all serious in Religion shew little sence of it in their discourses Preaching or practises men of little conscience and of as little learning Firm. This accusation is most fals whether it springs from spite or malice or extream ignorance I know not sure I am our Church orders that no suâ—h persons be admitted to the Holy Sacrament thâ—t no such Ministers be permitted to officiate that they are to be suspended once and again and if they do no not reform they are to be deprived for the first you may see the Rubrick before the Communion and the 26. Canon For the Second see Artic 26. and Canon the 74. and 75. and Canon 10. made 1640. which are so clear against the admitting of profane persons to to the Communion or tollerating of scandalous Ministers without due Punishment that whosoever chargeth these abuses upon our Church must be grosly ignorant or very malitious Dub. Yet we see that such prophane persons are admitted to the Sacrament as members of your Church and such unworthy Minsters are allowed to officiate Firm. Such persons are no members of out Church but rather the Synagoge of Satan and that Minister who does admit such persons natoriously prophane to the Holy Sacrament is a greater Non-conâ—ormist to the orders of the Church then he that scruples at a Surplice and those Church-wardens who neglect to present them are guilty of Perjury and ought to be debar'd themselves from the Communion Can. 26. Dub. 'T is evident that such Ministers are not Punished either by Admonition Suspensition or Deprivation Firm. This is not true in all places to my knowledge where such Ministers or people escape unpunished 't is mostly by the fault of the Church-wardens and Sides-men in not presenting them for what Judge either Ecclesiastical or Civil can punish offences that are not brought before him Dub. But many times offences and scandalâ— have been presented and the offender not punisâ—â—d yea your Ecclesiastical Judges are more severe against those who are Non-conformists to the laws oâ— the Church â—hen agâ—inst those that are Non-conformists to the laws of God as profane irreligeous wretches Firm. No mâ—n câ—n excuse the personal abuses that are committed in any Court Civil or Ecclesiastical all Court Officers never yet were nor ever will be men of integrity â—nd of unbias'd judgments no question that many abuses which are committed by the Officers of Ecclesiastical Courts might be prevented if the Bishops would be somtimes personally present in their respective consistoâ—ies as was intimated they ought to be Canon 11. made 1640. If we must seperate from a Church that enjoyns no Intollerable conditions for Communion with her because of some personal â—aulâ—s of those who are entrusted with her Goverment we must turn Seekers for where shall we find a Church whose Officers are alwaies all of them impartially just and upright Dub. I confess there is no good reason we should seperate from a Church
because of personal abuses in the Governors or under Officers where the Goverment in ' its constitution is not Faulty neither the terms of Communion intollerable but is there any reason that Nonconformists should be more shâ—rply dealt with then Debâ—ucht Profane Persons Firm. If we should compare Schisme Seperation Non-conformity with Profaness it would not be easy to say which is the greatest or which is the least Sin the first may be Majoris culpae the other Majoris infamiae as Aquinas rightly judgeth 1.2 q. 73. A. 5. of Carnal and Spiritual Sins those as Pride and Malice are greater Sins but these as Drunkenness Fornication are more Scandalous But to wave the comparison and to give you freely my own sentiments in this particular I do conceive that Debauchery and Profaness ought to be more severely punished then Negative Seperation and simple Non-conformity My reasons are these 1. Every prudent Parent will be moâ—e severe against a wicked Child that continues under his Roof professing obedience aâ—d sâ—bjection then against that Child which has utterly forsaken his Father and utterly abandon'd his House and Family 2. The sins of Proâ—â—ness and Debâ—uchery being willful for Drunkards and profane persons do not pleâ—d ignorâ—nce and weakness are oâ—â— more Mâ—lignâ—nt nature then sins of Ignorancâ— though it be such an ignorance which was not all together Invincible but contracted by Pride Pevishness Interest or Prejudice under which many Seperatists and Non-Conformists are in Bondagâ— and â—aptivity 3. The Lives and Conversations oâ— Debauched and Profane Persons who go under the name of Protestants and Members of our Church though intruth they are not but rather Limbs of Satan are the greatest Reproach and Scandal to it These are the men that furnish Shismaticks and Non-Conformists with their best Arguments which they urge against us For what they object against our Church Goverment Liturgie or Ceremonies is â—or the most part very frivilous and there is no Quaker Anabaptist Independents but mâ—kes the prophâ—ness of the Episcopaâ— party the chief reason and ground of his separation Dub. This I confess to be true from my own experience Nothing wrought so much upon me to foâ—sake the Church of England as the wicked and ungodly lives of those which she receives into her Communion Firm. That was your error for you cannot say thâ—t she receives any into her Communion whom by her Rubrick and Canons she â—xcludes and although through the laziness and connivence of Church Officers or Governors or both many an ungodly person receives the Sacament yet there is no just ground for a seperation from the Church which teaches nothing but what is Catholick and Apostolical Only I confess thaâ— in the exercise of Discipline she comes short of the Primitive severity against obstinate sinners yet the present Canons are so strict that if they were duly observed no openly wicked or ungodly person should be admitted to the Communion which would be a great satisfaction I am perswaded to those that now seperate from us Dub. But seing the Primitive Discipline has been so long time wished for above an Hundred years since as appears by the Rubrick before the Commination how comes it to pass that 't is not restored Shall we be still wishing and never acting or doing Firm. Why it has not been restored I know no other reason that is given but this The times will not bear it why the â—â—mes will not bear it I know not unless it be in respect of Seâ—taries who cry down many antient usâ—ges of the Church which they do not understand for Popery anâ— these men must not be offended least they be driven to an utter hatred oâ— opposition to our Church or else which is more probable such is the wickedness and profaness of the times that they will not endure the Primitive severity When will that time come that such strict discipline will be endured The Church has been in expectation of it above this Hundred years but still Schisms and Sects profaness and wickedness encrease every day more and more No question the times as to Sects and Pâ—ofaness if that were a sufficient reason are much more unfit to bear the antient discipline then they were when that wish was first made and the longer it is disused the more unfit they will be which I wish our prudent â—overnors would take into their serious considerations Dub. Certainly a Strict Discipline impartially executed upon all transgressors of Gods Holy Laws by sharp repâ—oofs severe admonitions due Suspensations from the Sacrament Excommunications Penances according to the quality of the offence would give a great check to that impiety and wickedness which reigns so much in our Land and take away much of the scandal which is given by our mixt Communions at which block of offence many have stumbled and fell out of our Church into Conventicles and Seperate Congregations Firm. No question a strict discipline would do much towards an hâ—ppy Reformation of manners in the Episcopal party but as you have observed the great scandal that is taken by the Non-conformists at the profaness and wickedness of that party so I must tell you that as great a scandal is given by them to those who conform to the Church of England though their lives and conversations being contrary to her Laws Canons they are no more members of our Church then a glass eye or wooden leg are live parts of a mans body Dub. I do not see wherein the Non-conformists whether Presbyterians or Independents have given any just occasion of scandal to any they being men that are very sober in their lives and great professors of Religion given much to Family-duties to Prayer to hearing of Sermons Firm. Hinc illae Lachrymae Here lies the scandal which mâ—kes Religion stink in the nostrils of profane and wicked men when they shall see that men professing holiness should make no conscience of Disobedience of Perjury of Rebellion against and at last of Murdering their Leige Sovereigne a man upon whom his most mallicious and crâ—tical enemies could never charge any scanlous sin Dub. These indeed are very grievious sins and much to be lamented but surely you cannot charge them upon the generality of thesemen but only upon some ambitious Hypocrites that made Religion a stalking-horse to bring about their devilish designs Firm. 'T is true that all the Non-conformiâ—â—s in England were not in actual armes against the King neither did they sit in the High Court of Injustice upon him neither did they all as natural agents cut of his Head but morally that is very sinfully and wickedly they had their hands stain'd with that Royal blood for whosoever did abet these sons of Belial in their Rebellions Treasons Murders of their King and fellow Subjects either by consenting to their Villanies praying for their prosperity praising God for their Victorious success or by assisting them with their councels advice free and voluntary Contributions by writing and preaching up the
out Firm. True 't is such dirt has been cast upon that Sacred Order by ignorant and discontented persons such an one was Aerius the first Anti-Episcopal man we read of but this groundless opinion is abundantly confuted by the Testimony of holy Scripture by the practise of the â—niversal Church attested by the general consent of Fathers and Councels as you may see in Dr. Hammond's book against Blondel Dr. Taylor 's treatise of the Divine right of Episcopacy with many others First The Scripture is clean for differrent Orders in the Clergy Our blessed Saviour besides his Seaventy Disciples had his Twelve Apostles which were superior to them as is evident by the chusing of Matthias into the place of Iudas from the example of Timothy and Titus the one a â—ishop of Creet the other of Ephesus by the general consent of Antiquity in those and other Churches In that once famous Church of Rome we have the Catalogue of those Bishops which presided there about Thirty of them suffering Martyrdom for the Testimony of our Lord Jesus What should I mention the Angels of the Seaven Asiatick Churches which by the general consent of the Fâ—thers were the Bishops of those Churches nay St. Hierome himself no good friend to this Order does acknowledg That when Christians began to he divided one being of Paul an other of Cephas to prevent such Schisms there past an vniversal Decree throughout the world Thâ—t Bishops should be setled in every Citty who should govern with the Common Councel of the Bresbyters and that one of the Bresbyters should be elected and set over the rest for taking away the seeds of Schism Dub. I am very well perswaded by what you have said that the Primitive goverment of the Church was by Bishops with the assistance of the Presbyterie who had authority over the Presbyters and were their superiors But I pray you satisfie me in this one thing Why did St. Paul so shâ—rply reprove the Corinthians for not excommunicating the Incestuous Person if they had no authority so to do without a Bishop Firm. This at the first sight seems to be a very smart objection but if we seriously consider the words upon which 't is grounded it has no weight at all The Text that is cited to prove it is 1. Corinth 5.2 Ye are puffed up and have not rather mourned that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you Where the Apostle reproves them for want of humiliation for so soul a sin not for the neglect of Excommunication He that had committed that great sin was to be taken away or cut off from the â—hurch but they themselves could not exclude him but this was to be done by the Spirit of St. Paul verse 3 4. in whom the power of Jurisdiction was originally â—eated there being then no Bishop of Corinth for evident it is that in those Churches where there were no Bishops the Apostles kept the power of Jurisdiction in their own hands until Bishops were setled among them as is manifest in the Churches of Ephesus and Creet Neither can it ever be proved that Bresbyters as such had any Jurisdiction belonging to the publick goverment of the Church but by particular Substitution and Delegation from the Apostles and Bishops and noâ— by virtue of their own Order Dub. I am very well satisfied both from Scripture and the general practise of the Church which is the best Comment on the Text That Episcopacy is an Apostolical Institution and I confess I am much confirm'd in this perswasion by Gods blessing upon our English Bishops and Episcopal men such as Cranmer Ridley Iewel Carlton Abbots Morton Andrews Vsher who of English extraction Hall Laud and Sanderson Hooker Cracanthorp Iackson c. whose profound Learning and Piety has given the greatest wounds to the Church of Rome that ever she received â—rom any Protestant writers and their judicious works have been the strongest sence against Popery Heresie Rebellion and Schism that the Christian world can ever boast of Firm. I much rejoyce that you have so good an opinion of our Bishops and Episcopal men I hope the Authority of these renowned Worthies will weigh much with you in our following discourses We will now if you please proceed to your exceptions against Deans and Chapters you shall find all those Learned men before mentioned and many more your opposites in this your second exception as well as in the former Dub. 'T is probable I shall however that I may receive full satisfaction from you give me leave to propose some doubts and scruples which I have against them As 1. They were not from the Beginning but as it were of yesterday 2. They seem to be very useless serving only to maintain the pride and grandure of many idle drones 3. Many poor Parochial Churches are rob'd of their Tiths and Glebs to maintain such lazy Ministers 4. Their Vicars Choral and Singing-men are many of them of no very commendable conversation have little sense or relish of Religion 5. Their Toning of Prayers their Chore service is like a Latine Masse not understood by the people 6. Their Organs and other Musical Instruments are Levitical utterly unlawful under the Gospel Firm. You may think these are such knots which admit of no easy solution but I shall presently make you understand the contrary First I shall shew you that Cathedrals Deans and Chapters though not under those names were from the beginning of Christianity It is clear from the Acts of the Apostles and the Records of the Church that the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ those spiritual Fishermen cast in their nets where they were like to make the greatest and most advantegious draughts They usually Preached in the most Populous Citys where they established Churches which anon after were called Mother-Churches to which the Suburbican or those that dwelt in the adjacent Villages were subject and with the Mother-Churches made up the Bishops Diocess which they governed as St. Hirome confesses by the common councel and assistance of Presbiters termed at Rome in after times Cardinals or chief Presbiters and in the time of Charles the great as the Magdeburgenses inform us were incorpated into a Colledge under the name of Dem and Chapter the Dean by the Canon-law being called Arch-Presbiter Before the sounding of Universsitys these Cathedrals were the Schools of the Prophets where young Students were train'd up in the Study of Divinity and other good learning Gerard gives us a tast of their first institution their corruption and how they might be restored to their primitive uses I could wish that some learned Person who has the advantage of Books and well Studyed men to consult with and leisure all which we Country Ministers are deprived of would write in the Vindication of Cathedrals and manifest to this invidious age that the institution of Deans and Chapters is very usefull to the Church and very Antient as I