Oracles of the Prophets the countenance of the Church is figured when at the first rising againe shee is renued into the ages of the moneth shee is hidden by the darknesse of the night and by little and little filling her hornes or right ouer against the Sunne rounding them doth shine with the light of cleere brightnesse The sixt assertion The false and malignant Church is oft time 〈◊〉 visible conspicuous and ample then the true Church and consequently eminent Visibility amplitude and splendor is no certaine note of the true Church The glorious face and outside of a Church which dazleth our aduersaries eyes was rather against Michea then for him all the Prophets prophecied c. It was rather against Eliah then for him for there were 450 Priests of Baal besides Câ—â—marims and hee took no notice in a manner of any seruant of God but himselfe It was rather against Ieremy then for him when all the Priests took counsell against him saying The law shall not depart from the Priest c. Nay the glorious outside and face of a Church was rather against Christ himselfe then for him All the chiefe Priests and Elders took counsell against Iesus Since Christs death to instance onely in one sort of Hereticks the Arrians vndoubtedly would haue carried the truth away by voyces and outward pomp for some hundreds of yeres if that were a safe triall for Saint Ierome complaineth Tunc vsiae nomen abolitum est tunc 〈◊〉 fidei damnatio conclamata est 〈…〉 Arrianum se esse miratus est Then the name of substance was abolished then the condemnation of the â—â—cene Creed was proclaimed the whole world sighed and maruelled that it became Arrian Vincentius putâ— theâ— case what was to be done Quando saith he Arrianorum venenuÌ„ non ià m portiunculam quandam sed pene orbem totum contaminauerat adeo vt prope cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis partim vi partim fraude deceptis caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur When as the poyson of the Arrians did not infect a little portion but in a manner the whole world insomuch that almost all the Latine Bishops partly by force and partly by cunning were intrapped and had a kinde of mist cast before their eyes These things beeing so may we not iustly vpbraid the Papists as Gregory Nazianzen doth the Arrians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c Where are they now who vpbraid pouerty vnto vs and boast of their wealth who define the Church by multitude and despise the little flock of Christ who honour the sand and reproach the greater lights of heauen who treasure vp Check-stones and passe by Margarites The seauenth Assertion When there is a difference betweene the visible professors of Christianity and each party pretendeth it selfe to bee the true Church in opposition to the other the onely sure and infallible meanes to know which of the dissident parties are of the true Church is by trying their doctrine by Scripture To this touch-stone of truth the Prophet Esay directeth vs To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them And our blessed Sauiour Search the Scriptures for in them you think yee haue eternall life And S. Peter We haue also a more sure word of Prophesie vnto which you doe well if yee giue heed as to a light that shineth in a darke place By this rule the Bereans examined the doctrine of the Apostle searching the Scriptures daily whether those things were so Saint Austen best approoueth of this course to come to the knowledge of the true Church In Scripturis Canonicis requiramus Ecclesiam in the Canonicall Scriptures let vs search the Church And Non audiamus Haec dico Haec dicis sed audiamus 〈◊〉 dicit Dominus Sunt certi libri Dominici quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam Let vs not heare I say this or Thou saist this but let vs heare This saith the Lord. There are certaine bookes of God to whose authority wee both consent there let vs seeke the Church And after much debating the matter hee concludeth the Chapter with these words Ergo in Scriptur is Canonic is eam requiramus therefore let vs seeke her the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures And Quisque nostrum non in iustitia sua sed in Scripturis quaerat Ecclesiam Aug. ep 48. Saint Basil directeth vs to the same course 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With whomsoeuer doctrine agreeable to Scripture shall bee found the truth is alwaies to be adiudged to bee on their side To forbeare more allegations the learned Author of the imperfect work on Mathew hearing the name of S. Chrysostome deliuereth a firmer conclusion in formall and expresse tearmes and that seuerall times shewing that his iudgement was settled and resolued vpon it 〈…〉 modis â—stendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi et quae Gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur quae vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per Scripturas quare quia omnia haec quae sunt proprie Christi in veritate habent et haereses illae in schemate similiter Ecclesiam similiter scripturas similiter baptismum similiter eucharistiam et caetera omnia demâ—m ipsum Christum Volens ergo quis cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione multitudinis nisi tantummodo per Scripturas Et pòst Qui ergò vult cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodò per Scripturaâ— Formerly it was shewed many waies what was the true Church of Christ and what was Gentilism but now it is knowne no other way which is the true Church of Christ but onely by the Scriptures Wherefore because all these things which properly belong vnto Christ in truth euen those heresies haue in shadow in like manner the Church in like manner the Scriptures in like manner Baptisme in like manner the Lords Supper and all other things finally Christ himselfe Hee therfore who is desirous to know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it in such a great confusion of multitude but onely by the Scriptures And a little after Hee that will therefore know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it but onely by the Scriptures It is obserued by those who follow the Law that when a Defendant excepts against the iudgement iurisdiction of the Court he certainely despaires of his cause in that Court. And what can wee interpret it in our aduersaries but distrust and despaire of their cause to detract as they doe from the perfection and except against the authority and sufficiency of Scripture for deciding all controuersies And heer I will be bold to turne the Iesuite Campions roring Canon against him and his fellowes Cùm multa sint quae aduersariorum in caâ—sa diffidentiam
of the second For as when the people at Capua were so incensed against the Senatours that they had a purpose presently to doffe them out of their places and liues too a wise man among them aduised them before they put the ould Senatours to the sword to thinke of fitter men to put in their places which when they could not agree vpon in the end it was resolued that the ould should continue In like manner if the Iesuites except against any of the Authors which I shall alledge in the later blinde ages as being not of sufficient credit for vs to relie vpon in so weightie a controuersie as the Iesuites make this to bee I require of the Iesuites to produce fitter men better Authors who liued in those times in case they cannot then to let those stand for good whom wee alledge for our selues for wee are to take Authors and Records such as we can finde not to make such as wee wish And therefore Scaliger as truly as tartly reproueth Baronius quod Annales faceret non scriberet that he wrote not Annales but made them out of his owne braine A true Record though neuer so foule-written and torne is better then a forged Deed though neuer so faire and legible Some later Papists excepting against diuers Authors alledged by vs shall not disable those Authors vnlesse they can make good their exceptions against them For example though Genebrard or Coccius or 〈…〉 disgracefully of Abbas Vâ—spergensis or 〈…〉 Câ—rdinalis or Platina or Auentinus yet vnless they can or could iustly tax or charge them they must and shall stand for good witnesses against Papists These cautions and distinctions premised I will now set downe the state of this second question in the Assertions following The first Assertion AMong the Professors of the Truth there may be differences of iudgement not onely touching rites and ceremonies and matters of discipline but also touching points of doctrine so the points be not main and fundamentall or such as are cleerly â—nd expressely defined by the Church out of manifest Teâ—ts of Scripture This conclusion I ground on those words of Saint Paul If any man build on this Foundation gold c. or hay and stubble c. if any mans work shall be burnt he shall suffer losse but hee himself shall be saued c. To this distinction of Foundations-doctrine without which a man cannot be saued and doctrines built vpon the Foundation which may be held or not held without danger of saluation Saint Ambrose alludes If there be any Church which refuseth faith and â—eepeth not the foundation of Apostolicall doctrine lest it should cast any spot on vs it must bee forsaken And Saint Prosper where hee insinuates a distinction of heresies Some like the Pelagian poisoning the bowels and surprising the very vitals of Christs mysticall Body others affecting and infecting other parts further from the heart and therefore not so dangerous Vincentius Lyrinensis glanceth at the former distinction of doctrines fundamentall and not fundamentall The former he calleth Fidei regulaâ—â— the rule of faith the later Diuinae Legis quaestiunculas subtill questions concerning the Law of God in which he saith we need not much seek the Fathers consent Saint Austen also when he was pressed by Iulian the Pelagian with a testimony out of Saint Chrysostome laieth hold on the buckler of a like distinction Sanctus inquit Constantinopolitanusnegat esse in paruulis originale peccatum Holy saith he Iohn of Constantinople denieth that originall sinne is in little children Absit vt Constantinopolitanus Iohannes de baptismate parvulorum eorumque à chirographo liberatione per Christum tot ac tantis co-Episcopis suis maximeque Romano Innocentio Carthaginensi Cypriano Cappadoci Basilio Gregorio Nazianzeno Gallo Hilario Mediolanensi resistat Ambrosio Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque optimi regulae catholicae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant alius aliò vna de re meliùs aliquid dicit veriùs Hoc autem de quo nunc agimus ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta GOD forbid that Iohn of Constantinople concerning the baptism of little or yong children and their freedom by Christ from the hand-writing should gain-stand so many and so worthy of his fellow-Bishops especially Innocent Bishop of Rome Cyprian of Carthage Basil of Cappadocia Gregorie of Nazianzen Hilarie of France and Ambrose of Millain Some things there are in which the most learned and best defenders of the catholique rule the bond of faith preserued do somtimes not agree among themselues and one in some one thing saith somewhat better and righter than another But this wherein now we deal belongeth to the very grounds of faith Vnlesse we admit of such a distinction neither we nor the Romane Church nor the Greek nor any Church now in Christendome is able to produce a Catalogue of visible Professors of their faith in any antient Age much lesse in all Ages And therefore if M. Fisher and his fellow-Iesuites require of a true Church a Catalogue of such Professors as in all Ages held not onely the same fundamentall and principall points of faith but also all the same doctrinall conclusions and particular deductions I must aduise him in the words of Constantine the Great spoken to Nouatus to make a ladder and go vp to heauen alone As the Fathers differ from vs in some things so also they differ among themselues yet as they esteemed themselues notwithstanding these differences to be members of the same Catholick Church so doo we esteem the said Fathers professors of our Protestant Doctrine Our Aduersaries lay claim to them also and yet they cannot deny but that the Fathers dissent from them in some points of no small moment Papias the scholar of Saint Iohn the Euangelist did eat the sowre grape of the Millenarie Error and Iustin Martyr Iraeneus Lactantius and the Fathers generally before Saint Ierome's time had their teeth set on edge therewith Scaliger well seen in Antiquity obserues Omnes veteres Christianos etiam infra aetatem Augustini putâsse animas tam piorum quà m impiorum in centro terrae tanquam quodam conceptaculo expectare diem iudicij quod Tertullianus eleganer dixit In candidâ expectare diem iudicij Praerogatiuam tamen dant Martyribus quos vno saltu recta in Paradisum deferri volunt All the antient Christians yea euen before the time of Saint Augustine thought the soules aswell of the godly as vngodly in the centre of the earth as it were in some receptacle to expect the day of iudgement which Tertullian elegantly calls In candidâ to look for the day of iudgement Yet they yeeld a prerogatiue to the Martyrs whom they will haue to bee carried directly into Paradise at one leap or jump Dooth your Church approoue of this opinion Saint Cyprian findeth great fault with those who before his time administred the
lineis materiam clausimus inter quas congredimur According to which prescription D. Featly as soone as he receiued the Question from M. Fisher returned it in another paper in which he briefly stated it The fift rule is Saint Austens to obserue Logick Forme in Disputation Quid tu disputas si disputare non noueris Quid est aliud dialectica quam peritia disputandi Nonne etiam dialectice Christ us cum Iudaeis egit Why dost thou offer to dispute if thou knowest not how to dispute What is Logick but the Art of disputing Did not Christ dispute Logically with the Iewes And a little after Dialecticam nunquam doctrina Christiana forâ—â—dat The Christian doctrine neuer feareth Logick According to which prescription D. Featly desired that both the opponent respondent should bee tied to Logick Forme for nimble wits like Proteus will turne themselues into all Formes and vnlesse they bee held fast and in a sort forced and wrung with the knots of Logicall Arguments they wil neuer be brought to agnize the Truth Aristotle speaks of certain Organa mechanica artificiall Frames vsed in Greece quae teneros infantium artus coercerent ne in praua deflecterentur sed concinna illorum forma nihil foedum aspectu aut distortuÌ„ praeferret which frames serued to keep straight the limbs and joynts of the infants that they should not goe away but keep due proportion and a comely shape Such artificiall instruments are Logick Formes they serue to make vs to walk straight 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 neither treading inward nor outward in our discourses To dispute without Logick is to rule without a Ruler or draw a Circle without a Compasse or steer without a Card. In which respect although M. Fisher were very vnwilling to be bound to his Logicall behauiour yet D. Featly had great reason to require it of him because he bound himself to it proposing all his Arguments in Logick Form and disposing them in Logick Method premising Arguments à priori before his Argument à posteriori and Syllogismes before his Induction beginning at the top in the first Age and descending to the later according to the order of time nature dignity The most cunning Work-man that euer wrought with the tools of naturall wit forceth all Arguments into two kindes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or reprehensorie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or demonstratiue Elencticall or reprehensiue driue at an Aduersary Dicticall or demonstratiue aime at a Thesis or Position of our owne The former sort serue to beat downe an enemies weapons on his owne head the later to make good our owne ground The former may not vnfitly be called 〈◊〉 Arguments the later Simply and directly proouing D. Featly in this Disputation made vse of both first of Elencticall Arguments to discouer the weaknes of his Aduersaries and then of Dicticall to shew the strength of the Protestants cause and the Visibility of their Church in all Ages The first Argument of the former sort was couched in these words Although divine and infallible faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane History Which may be thus propounded at large Whosoeuer propoundeth such a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Testimonies and Records betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity But M. Fisher propoundeth a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records Therefore M. Fisher betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity The Maior or first Proposition was prooued by Bellarmine's confession Historiae humanae faciunt tantùm fidem humanam cui subesse potest falsum Humane Stories and Records beget onely an humane faith or rather credulity subject to error And it may bee more strongly confirmed by the testimony of Tertullian Aliunde suadere possunt de rebus fidei nisi ex Literis fidei Can they otherwise perswade in matters of faith than out of the Writ of faith And Saint Augustine Solis Canonicis debeo absolutum sine vlla recusatione consensum I owe absolute consent without any refusall onely to the Canonicall Scriptures The effect cannot exceed the cause nor the conclusion both the premises and therefore wee cannot build a diuine and infallible conclusion such are all conclusions de fide vpon meer humane testimonies which are not of infallible truth All other humane Histories come short of the Apocryphall Books of Scripture for you rank them with the Canonicall Scriptures and we giue them the next place to them yet the testimonies out of the Apocryphal of Scripture may not be alleaged to ground any conclusion of faith vpon them as Ruffinus affirms in expresse words Quae omniae legi quidem in Ecclesiis volucrunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandam All which Books they would haue read in the Churches but not be produced to establish faith out of them The Minor or Assumption is thus prooued The perpetuall Visibility of the Church is a conclusion of faith euidently grounded as is confessed on Christ's promise in Scripture But M. Fisher requireth in his Question the perpetuall Visibility of the Church to be proued out of meer humane Authors and Stories expresly excluding Scripture Therefore M. Fisher propoundeth a Question in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records The second Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was couched in these words Although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false sâ—pposals c. Which may be thus propounded at large That Question which is grounded vpon an euident false supposall needeth not to bee discussed but ought rather to be exploded But M. Fishers Question is grounded vpon an euident false supposall Therefore M. Fishers Question needeth not to be discussed but ought rather to bee exploded The Maior or first Proposition is euident in it self for to such a Question there needeth no other Answer to be giuen but simply to deny the supposall The Minor or second Proposition was thus proued First if the names of all Professors are not nor euer were vpon Record then M. Fishers supposall is false viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of all visible professors can now bee shewed But all visible professors names are not nor euer were on record as it is certaine and confessed by A. C. p. 33. Therefore Master Fishers supposall is false viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of those visible Professors could be shewed Secondly if all ancient Records are not now extant then it is no good Argument to say The names of visible Protestants in all ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record therefore they were neuer vpon Record But all ancient Records are not now extant Therefore it is no good Argument to say that because the names of
I in my Argument nor you in your Answer vse those words 〈◊〉 aeterno Page 22. To that Syllogisme in the Conference viz. That Church whose faith is eternall and pâ—â—petuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popiâ—â— Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo The Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee You answer That the Maior is not vniuersally true for that there may be a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged As for example A Church of Angels who for want of visible professors are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be Quid ad Rombum What is this instance to the purpose I dispute of the Church on earth you answer of the Church in heauen I dispute of faith you answer of vision I dispute of a Church succeeding in all Ages you answer of a Church in which there is no succeeding nor Ages I dispute of a Church visible in all Ages you answer of a Church visible in no Age. I dispute of noble Confessors Martyrs who haue sealed the profession of the Christian faith with their bloud you answer of immortall Spirits In a word I dispute of men named in good Authors and Histories you answer of Angels whose names are written in heauen and were neuer vpon visible Record except two or three named in the Scriptures Page 31. To those words of mine I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio à genere in genus such was my Argument for faith in a beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof You reply That M. Sweet 's Logick is not lesse to bee esteemed if hee had tearmed that 〈◊〉 to weet proouing the effect by the cause transitio à genere in genus for a cause as a cause an effect as an effect doe not onely differ specie but also genere and besides a proofe à priori and à posteriori are diuers kindes of proofes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I dispute of a transition à genere in genus in rebus you answer of a transition in notionibus I speake of a straying from the subject of the Question you answer of passing through diuers heads of Logick in proouing I speake of genus in Scientijs you answer of 〈◊〉 in the predicables or predicants so well in defence of M. Sweet you obserue M Sweets pretended Law of speaking nothing but to the purpose But certainely you saw not the But and somissed the mark reading M. Sweets Law without it thus Item 2. That nothing should be spoken to the purpose Euery Puney in Logick can tell you that the meaning of transitio à genere in genus is the proouing of a conclusion in one science by the principles of another distinct from it and no way subalternall to it As for example To demonstrate a conclusion in Physick by principles in Geometrie or to demonstrate a conclusion in naturall Philosophy out of a principle or principles in Morall Philosophy But if your interpretation of transitio à genere in genus should stand euery demonstration of the effect by the cause à priori or of the cause by the effect 〈◊〉 posteriori in the same Science should bee a transitio à genere in genus because as you say the cause as a cause and the effect as an effect differ genere for which ignorant Arguing as M. Sweet was prickt by D. Goad in the Conference so you M. Fisher for your more ignorant and grosse defence of it deserue to be sent to fustitudinas ferricrepinas Insulas vbi viuos homines mortui incursant boues Page 65. You alledge this for a reason why you refused to answer Christ his Apostles for that say you All disputation about particulars before the true Church were by her perpetuall Visibility or some such euident marke found out and knowne would haue beene fruitlesse and endlesse which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference had with a certaine Minister would not enter into any particulars vntill he had asked these generall Questions First what ground the Minister would stand vpon c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heer you bring-in by the head and eares a Conference of yours with a worthy Minister and an acute Disputant touching the merit of works What is this to the Visibility of the Protestant Church or a Catalogue of Names If this bee not transitio à genere in genus I am sure it is transitio à Quaestione in Quaestionem a vagring from one Question to another sufficiently distant neither was there any cause at all giuen you of this digression for I drew you not to dispute about any particulars but proceeded to prooue the generall Question proposed by your self to weet that The Protestant Church was so visible in the first Age that the Names of those that taught the Protestant faith might be produced viz. Christ his twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatius to whom after you had giuen your Answer Whether they taught our faith or yours I would haue gone on in like manner in naming the Professors of the Protestant faith in all Ages Now then let the Reader iudge whether this your digression into a long tale of a conference of yours with a Minister touching merits were any way necessary or pertinent Page 68. 69 70. You alleage many Sayings out of Tertullian's golden Book of Prescriptions to prooue that Hereticks who reiected the authority of the Apostolicall and Mother Churches and refused also some Scriptures or peruerted the Text by additions and detractions should not be admitted to dispute with Orthodoxall Christians out of Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The sentences indeed you cite are golden but you apply them most leadenly for what Protestant whom by a ridiculous 〈◊〉 principij or begging the Question you stile Hereticks what Protestant I say euer reiected the authority of the Apostolicall or Mother Churches as they were in the Primitiue Times much lesse either refused or peruerted any part of parcell of the Canonicall Scriptures by addition or detraction Wee attribute much more to the holy Scriptures and the ancient Mother-church of which Tertullian speaks who receiued the Originall of Scriptures from the Authors themselues then you do we willingly put our whole cause in their hands wee renounce any Article of faith which cannot be prooued to haue been held by the Apostles and their heires Tertullian speaks of Prooue that the Apostles or the Primitiue Churches immediatly founded by them held your Trent-faith or those twelue new Articles added by Pope Piuâ— in the end of that Councell and imposed vpon all Professors to sweare vnto and then I will acknowledge that the Romane Church hath a good title to the Scriptures And if we prooue not that we
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without
Thus possessed and in some sort perplexed by your bold and confident assertions and false suggestions hee with much adoe by Sir Humfrey Lyndes meanes procures a Conference wherein hee findes all things otherwise then hee might expect Hee and all the Auditory obserued D. White and my selfe to bee very ready and earnest to proceed in the Questions both to prooue the Visibility of our Church and disprooue theirs On the contrary he could not but see you to cast all manner of Remoraes and rubs to hinder speedie and direct proceedings and for the Questions touching the Visibility of the Church First hee heard that the perpetuall Visibility of the Church beeing a point of faith was not to bee built vpon deduction from humane Stories and good Authors as the Iesuite required but vpon diuine reuelation in Gods Word as is confessed by learned Papists Secondly that a Protestant Church might haue beene visible in all Ages and yet not the names of visible Protestants now to bee produced and prooued out of good Authors because neither all mens names euer were vpon record nor are all antient Records preserued to this day neither can wee come by all those Records that are yet extant Thirdly that notwithstanding the Popish brag that All the Christian world were Papists before Luther yet you were not able to name any Countrey City Village or Hamlet nay not any man who for 500. yeeres and more after Christ either professed your Trent-faith in generall or those fifteene points recited in the Conference in particular Fourthly that the surest and strongest meanes to prooue the perpetuall Visibility of a Church was á priori by the conformity of it's faith to the Scriptures of which faith God promiseth in his Word that it shall haue visible Professors to the worlds end Fiftly that a visible Church inferrs not necessarily a right faith Iews Mahumetanes Gentiles and diuers sorts of blasphemous Hereticks haue visible professors of their impieties yet are they all of a wrong beliefe if of any on the contrary the right faith inferreth necessarily a visible Church because the true faith cannot bee in a Church which professeth it not openly or priuately therefore the prime and maine question of all is of the right beliefe of the primitiue and Catholique faith whether wee or the Church of Rome haue it and not of a Catalogue of names Sixtly that an offer was made to name some eminent persons which in al Ages taught Protestant Doctrine and opposed the Romish errors either when they came in or not long after and that this Catalogue had beene a good way proceeded in if you had not beene the cause by your delayes and tergiuersations Lastly that when I instanced in Christ and his Apostles and vrged you againe and againe yea and adiured you also to answer directly whether they taught our faith or yours yet you peremptorily and finally refused so to doe which hee might well interpret to proceed from your apparant distrust in your cause And now let the discreet Reader iudge whether M. Bugges had not reason to alter his opinion concerning you and your cause at least in that particular of which only he seemed to doubt of Shortly after the Conference M. Fisher sent this Letter ensuing to the right honorable the Earl of WARVVICK The Copie of M. Fisher's Letter RIGHT HONOVRABLE LORD I Esteeme it a speciall prouidence of God that your Lordship was present at a late Conference wherein D. White and D. Featly vndertook to shew against mee and my companion that the Protestant Church had beene visible in all Ages and that their Professors might be named especially in the Ages before Luther Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proofe to haue consisted in this that The true Church was alwaies so visible as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named but the Protestants was the true Church Wee refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferd the Question and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church which was then propounded and expected If as they conclude they are able to name their Professors in all Ages why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours Why went they about to prooue they were able to name them when with lesse adoe they might haue named them Where deeds are iustly expected words without deeds are worthily neglected Certainely heereby they are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook as they stand more engaged then before to the performance of it For hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church that is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to bee and the Church whose faith is eternall and vnchanged must bee is able to name her Professors in all Ages either for their owne honour and for the satisfaction of the world they must set down the names of their Professors in all Ages or else they shamefully discouer themselues not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church which is able to name them Againe at the length yeelding as they did to shew the continual Visibility of their Church by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages which they seemed to vndertake with great confidence why did they stick in the first Age alone refusing to name their professors in the Ages following vntill the first were tried May not the Answerer choose to deny which part of the Argument hee pleaseth and was it euer heard that hee should bee inforced to reply to one proposition alone before the whole Argument whether it were Syllogism or Induction were fully propounded Very nobly therefore and prudently your Lordship in the end desired anotheâ— meeting not doubting that your owne partie within three or foure daies would be content to giue vs the names of their Professors in all Ages as wee were ready to giue them the names of ours that thereby both sides might bee the better prepared for a second triall which when they haue performed wee shall not faile to encounter with them either by way of speech or writing as your Lordship all things considered shal think fairest or safest or most conuenient for the discouery of truth But if your Lordship shall not bee able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and importâ—nt request the defect of proofe on their part must needs bee accounted a plaine flight and no man heereafter can prudently rely his saluation vpon that Church which for want of perpetuall Visibility prooued they themselues shall haue concluded to be false and feigned Thus expecting the issue heereof and your Lordships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer I remaine the first of Iuly 1623. Your Lordships seruant in Christ IOHN FISHER Doctor Featlie's Answer to M. Fisher's Letter IN perusing this Letter of yours I could not but think of the old riddle Hom◠〈…〉 videns
vndertake the like task in your own defence and maintaine the affirmatiue in the like question which we now propound vnto you heere in writing Whether the Romish Church that is a Church holding the particular entire doctrine of the now Romanists as it is comprised in the Councell of Trent was in all ages visible especially in the first 600 yeeres And whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in all ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors Heere D. Featly reading this question through a mistake in stead of out of good Authors read out of Gods Word Whereunto M. Fisher replied No I will prooue it out of good Authors Then said one that sate at the Table By no meanes can M. Fisher endure to demonstrate his Church out of Gods Word D. Featly God is a good Author M. Fisher but it is true I did mistake What say you to the condition Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages out of good Authors M. Fisher. I will so you prooue the Visibility of your Church Heere an order was set downe that D. Featly should for an houre and a halfe oppose M. Fisher in this question and afterwards M. Fisher for the last houre and halfe should oppose D. White in the other question for the Visibility of the Romane Church M. Sweet Before you proceed to dispute I desire these conditions may bee assented vnto on both sides 1. That all bitter speeches be forborne 2. That none speake but disputants Which conditions were well approoued by the whole company D. Featly I desire a third to bee added thereunto viz. that both the Opponent and Respondent be tyed to Logick Forme M. Fisher. I hold not that condition fit because the company vnderstands not Logick Forme D. Featly There are of the company that vnderstand Logick as well as you or I and the rest are men of vnderstanding and reason therefore I am resolued to keepe Logick Forme and expect from you direct answers M. Fisher. You your selfe confesse that this question is not to be handled syllogistically D. Featly I said indeed that it required rather a large historicall volume then a briefe syllogisticall Dispute the more you too blame to propound such a question and my taske the harder yet beeing propounded as a question I will keep my self to Logicke Forme But before I propound my argument I craue leaue in fewe words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse wherewith you draw and delude many of the ignorant and vnlearned You beare them in hand that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant before Luther and that all the world before his time beleeued as you doe That your Church hath not bin onely visible in all Ages and all times but eminently conspicuous and illustrious which is such a notorious vntruth that I heer offer before all this company to yeeld you the better and acknowledge my self ouercome if you can produce out of good Authours I will not say any Empire or Kingdome but any City Parish or Hamlet within 500. yeeres next after Christ in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to bee named maintaining and defending either your Trent Creed in generall or these poynts of Popery in speciall to wit 1. That there is a treasury of Saints merits and superaboundant satisfactions at the Popes disposing 2. That the Laitie are not commanded by Christs institutions to receiue the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in both kindes 3. That the publicke seruice of God in the Church ought or may bee celebrated in an vnknowne Tongue 4. That priuate Masses wherein the Priest sayth Edite et bibite ex hoc omnes Eate and drinke yee all of this and yet eateth and drinketh himselfe onely are according to Christs institution 5. That the Popes pardons are requisite or vsefull to release soules out of Purgatory 6. That the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister M. Sweet These are scholasticall points not fundamentall D. White Those things which are defined in your Councell of Trent are to you matters fundamentall Whatsoeuer article denied makes a man an hereticke is fundamentall But the deniall of any of these makes a man an hereticke Therefore to you euery one of these articles is fundamentall To which argument nothing being answered D. Featly proceeded 7. That extreme vnction is a Sacrament properly so called 8. That wee may worship God by an Image 9. That the sacred Hoast ought to bee eleuated or carried in solemne procession 10. That Infidels and impious persons yea Rats and Mice may eate the body of Christ. 11. That all ecclesiasticall power dependeth of the Pope 12. That hee cannot erre in matter of faith 13. That hee hath power to canonize Saints 14. To institute religious orders 15. To depose Kings c. which latter points and the like I leaue to D. White to mayntaine against you when according to your promise you doe vndertake to name visible and legible Romanists in all ages M. Fisher. After you haue proued your Church visible in all ages and named the professours thereof I will satisfy you in your particulars D. Featly In the meane-while name but one Father but one Writer of note who held the particulars aboue-named for 500. yeeres after Christ. To which instant demand of D. Featly nothing was answered Sr. Humfrey Lynde M. Sweet proue mee but this one point out of Saint Augustine namely Transubstantiation or satisfy such arguments as I shall bring you out of Saint Augustine to the contrary and I will promise you to goe to Masse To which M. Sweet made no other answer then this That is not now to the question M. Fisher. I expect your argument Doctor Featly D. Featly There are two meanes only to proue any thing by necessary inference to wit a Syllogisme and an Induction other formes of argument haue no force but as they are reducible to these I proue the visibility of our Church by both and first by a Syllogisme That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall was euer visible in the professours thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church was euer visible in the Professours thereof M. Fisher. You conclude not the question D. Featly There are two Quaeres in your question first Whether the Protestant Church was in all ages visible and secondly Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all ages can bee shewed I haue concluded in my Syllogisme the first Quaere M. Fisher. There are not two Quaeres or parts in the question it is but one question D. White Where there are two propositions with two distinct Vtrums there are two questions But heer are two propositions with two distinct vtrums to wit whether the Protestant Church c. and whether the names c. Therefore there are two Quaeres or parts in the question M. Fisher. Conclude any thing
Syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly You your self make the first part a question by it selfe for at the margent ouer against the first part Whether the Protestant Church was euer visible you write I will answer It was not which words can haue no Construction if you referre them to both parts or at all to the latter part to wit Whether the names can be a shewed M. Fisher. Let vs heare a Syllogisme D. Featly In this copulatiue proposition which you offer for a question and require mee to proue either you deny both parts or one onely if both I am to proue both one after the other if one onely then you grant the other A copulatiue is not true vnlesse both parts bee true Doe you deny both or one onely M. Fisher. I say they are but one for the later part is to expound the former for I meane by visible so visible that the names of such visible Protestants may bee shewed D. Featly This is to confound two distinct questions in one For a Church may haue bin visible and yet the names of such visible Professours not now to bee shewed M. Fisher. They are my words and I am best able to expound my owne meaning D. Featly An exposition which the construction of the words will not beare is not to be receiued But the construction of the words will not beare this your expositioÌ„ Therfore it is not to be receiued And is a coniunction copulatiue must adde some-what to that which goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men M. Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this if there were visible men certainly they may bee named Name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all ages D. Featly It seemes you are Nominalls rather then Realls you stand so much vpon naming Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages If neither you nor wee can name visible professours of our Religions in all ages for ought I knowe the best way for vs is to bee all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a Naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all ages certainly they may bee named D. Featly That is a Non sequitur for the reasons beforenamed by mee What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Plinie haue no names at all M. Bolton Yet they haue descriptions and may bee knowne by some Periphrasis D. Featly What say you then to the Heretikes called Acephali who are so called because their Head and Authour cannot bee named nor particularly described Yet the Authour was a visible man Are all visible mens names vpon Record Are all the Records that were in former times now to bee produced Heer diuers of Master Fishers company called Names names names D. Featly What Will nothing content you but a Buttery-booke You shall haue a Buttery-booke of names if you will stay a while Heere diuers of the Auditors wished D. Featly not to proceed any further in the disputation vnlesse Master Fisher would suffer him according to the lawes of all disputation first to conclude the first part of his copulatiue Queâ—stion and then the second Yet Doctor Featly ' desirous to bring the disputation to some better issue before he left it was content to yeeld to M. Fishers vnreasonable demand and conclude both parts of the copulatiue Question in one Syllogisme D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall is so visible that the Names of some Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Therefore the Protestants Church is so visible that the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith ceaseth D. Featly You haue a purpose M. Fisher to cauill you knowe my meaning well enough by the tearm perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue vntill his second Coming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shall bee so visible that the Names of the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Therefore it hath been so visible that the Names of the Professers thereof may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacy called Petitio principij D. Featly A demonstration à causâ or à priori is not petitio principii But such is my Argument Therefore my Argument is not petitio principii Is it not a sounder Argument to prooue the Visibility of the Professers from the truth of their faith than as you doo the truth of your faith from the Visibility of Professers Visible Professers argue not a right faith Hereticks Mahumetans and Gentiles haue visible professers of their impieties yet wil it not hence follow that they haue a right beleef On the contrary wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintains the true faith shall haue alwaies Professers more or less visible M. Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori D. Featly Shall you prescribe mee my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better than an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemy to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapons I list take you what buckler you can M. Fisher. A Proof à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori M. Alesbury Heer M. Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceeds à priori Is not a demoÌ„stration of the effect froÌ„ the cause more excellent than of the cause by the effect From this place and so forward it was agreed by the Disputants that the Arguments and Answers should be taken by one common Writer and that the Opponent Dr. Featly should set his hand to each seuerall Syllogism and the Respondent Mr. Fisher to his seuerall Answers Dr. Featly That Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee is so visible that the Names of the Professours thereof may be produced and shewed But the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible that their Names may be produced M. Fisher. I deny the Minor D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternal and perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be But the
faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the Names can bee shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the Names cannot be shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the Conclusion in the same manner D. Featly What Answer you to the Conclusion also This is a Strain of new Logick M. Fisher. Tolle distinctionem D. Featly A strange distinction of the etemity of faith by Professers to be named and not to bee named What are Professers nominable or innominable to the eternity of faith M. Fisher. Conclude that which I deny that the Protestant Church is so eternall as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may be shewed D. Featly That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetuall visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church is so perpetuall and visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this Proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speak you of those who are not able by their owne abilities to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirm the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heer M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should be made when it came to their turn to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. D. Featly The Summe of your former Answer was that the Minor of my former Syllogisme was both false and impertinent It is neither false nor impertinent Therefore your Answer is false and impertinent And first my Minor is not false M. Fisher. I answer to the Antecedent that it is both false and impertinent but I adde that for the present it must first be prooued to be pertinent or else it diuerteth vs from the chief end of our Dispute which was as I said before that infallible truth may bee learned of the true visible Church and not the true visible Church by first finding euery particular infallible truth and by that to conclude which is the true visible Church D. Featly I proue that the Minor is pertinent That Minor Proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the Conclusion of the Minor last denied is pertinent to the probation of that Minor denied But the Minor Proposition of the third Syllogisme doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor last denied Therefore the Minor of that Syllogism is pertinent Note that M. Fishers Answers to euery one of these Syllogismes were penned by him verbatim with the aduice of M. Sweet and one other suggesting priuately and amending what they thought fit Which breeding much delay irkesom to the hearers and the Opponent then saying You are very long M. Fisher M. Chamberlane standing by said Let him alone for he and his learned Councell are not yet agreed M Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Minor proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor in such manner as it may serue for the purpose to which the whole Dispute is ordained I grant it to be pertinent But if it doe inferre the conclusion yet not in such manner as it may serue for that purpose for which the whole Dispute was ordained I deny the Maior Heere the Disputants iarred and so the Writer ceased yet that which followeth was then deliuered by them D. Featly That Minor which together with the Maior inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per direct a media is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained But this Minor together with the Maior directly and necessarily inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per directa media Therefore it is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained M. Fisher. Your Media in your Syllogismes were directa but they tended not ad directum finem D. Featly This is a Bull. M. Fisher. Media directa yet not addirectum finem that is direct and not direct for Media are said to be directa only ratione finis in regard of the end M. Sweet Is there not a fault in arguing called transitio à genere in genus When a man by arguing quite leaues the maine question and subiect D. Featly I acknowledge that transitio à genere in genus is a fault in disputing but I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio a genere in genus such was my argument For faith in a right beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof which makes a visible member and the like profession of many members a visible Church Where the cause is perpetuall the effect must needs bee perpetuall Therefore where the faith is perpetuall the profession thereof must needs be and consequently the Visibility of the professors thereof Is this transitio à genere in genus D. Good M. Sweet you once learned better Logick in Cambridge then you shew now Heere againe those of M. Fishers side calling for names Where are your names D. White sayd D. White This is nothing but an apparant tergiuersation you will not answer any argument directly nor suffer vs to proceed in our argument and therefore I require you M. Fisher according to the order mentioned in the beginning for each party to haue an houre and a
one thing and you proued another The question was of the visibilitie of Church but your arguments were of the eternity of faith Is not this thiug ad ChouÌ„ Ego respondeo de allijs tu disputas de cepis M. Fisher answered of Garlike you spake of Onions For this vnsauory exception M. Sweet was sauced in the conference where it was proued against him that to proue an effect by the cause is a direct naturall and not a diuersiue proofe My argument standeth thus The true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints hath had must and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the Protestant faith hath had and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof The Maior is euident in Scripture and confessed on all hands The Minor I offered to proue but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall The Maior and Minor passing without controll none but Master Fisher would haue denied or distinguished vpon the conclusion This argument I affirme not onely direct to proue the conclusion denied but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question which is to finde out the true Church whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe but out of Scripture And for the visibility of the true Church either it is a matter of faith or not If not what need wee so much trouble our selues with it If it bee matter of faith Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei can they otherwise perswade in matter of faith then out of the Writ of faith that is the holy Scripture For humane Stories and Records in al ages they are not easily found and when we haue found them we find them so defectiue so corrupted and defaced and oftentimes so contrary one to another that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour And were they neuer so perfect as Bellar. confesseth they could not beget diuine and infallible faith If no man can bee saued without knowledge that he is in the true Church and no man can knowe that he is in the true Church vnless hee can proue out of good Authours the perpetuall succession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church who neither haue time nor meanes nor learning to search all Records of Antiquitie Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages who maintained the present Tridentine faith which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did or could yet they are little neerer For Iewes and Paynims and it may bee diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages since Christ and his Apostles times and some before From visibility of Professors no man can certainely conclude truth of sauing Doctrine conformable to Scriptures but from conformity of Doctrine to the scriptures a man may by infallible consequence grounded vpon Gods promises to his Church conclude perpetuall visibility of professors more or lesse And therefore the course I tooke is not onely the streight but the easiest and onely certaine way to bring vs to the true Church which is the house of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism I wil now giue you an account of my Catalogue and shew my inducements to my induction Against which I heare by you it is excepted that in vndertaking it I leaue the beaten way and take a way by my self where I shall surely lose my selfe neuer come to an end To this obiection the ciuil Law furnisheth me with an Answer Nemo tenetur diuinare No man is bound to prophecie before-hand especially of the successe of anothers labours If leaue be procured for a second Meeting the golden thread of succession which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand and his Apostles shall be drawne downe God willing to later Ages euen to Luthers time But what they meane by holding the beaten way I cannot easily diuine If they mean that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I say that way perhaps beaten by some yet seems to me a slipperie dirty way and I hope I shall bee able to shew that we need not aurum in stercore quaerere to seek the golden purity of faith amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions and deprauations in later ages Many of our Worthies haue shewne mee a more excellent way quos sequor à longe et vestigia pronus adoro These are Doctor Abbot now my Lord of Canterbury in his Answer to Hill Humfrey to Campion his third reason Doctor Vsher now Lord of Meth de successione Ecclesiae The History of the Waldenses Fox Acts and Monuments Crispin of the state of the church Morneys mystery of iniquity with Riuets defense thereof Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors Illiricus witnesses of the truth Wolsius his select readings Lydius his Waldensia and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse As those that trauell by night through the Hercynian Forest when they are at a stand obserue certaine birds fleeing before them and by the brightnes of their white feathers shining in the dark guide their steppes and finde out a way so in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee I doubt not but by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that haue flowne before me I mean the light of their siluer quils who haue wrote of this Subject to finde out my way I haue omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Conference except an omission of the sâ—ate of the question which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered as they could wish That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Conference they say is so brief that instar fulguris terret magis quà m illustrat it is like lightning which rather scares than lights the Passenger in his way If this were a iust exception yet it lyeth not against me who had the Opponents part put vpon me but against M. Fisher who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent For by the orders of all Schools it is the Answerers and not the Opponents task to state the Question He that keeps a Fort in battel is to make his ramparts and guard the walls with redouts and out-works the assailants part is to lay well his batteries and make breaches where he can At the next desired meeting when D. White or my selfe should haue supplyed the Respondents place the Question should haue been explicated to the full by the distinctions conclusions heerin inclosed But as that Meeting by iniurious
suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
renounce all the particular errors of the present Romish church at this day for such Protestants could not bee much before Luther The particular diseases must in nature bee presupposed before a particular remedy can bee applyed vnto them Reformation necessarily presupposeth a disorder and deformation Neither doe wee restraine the name Protestants to such only as in particular set themselues directly and professedly against some speciall error of Popery as of Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences c. for such professed opposing could not bee imagined before such errors were in beeing But as the Fathers before the Councell of Nice did not in words define 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or that the Son was of the same substance with the Father and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 onely that is of a like substance nor professedly wrote against the Heresie of Arius by name yet are they rightly esteemed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indeed or maintainers of the right beliefe touching the consubstantiality of the Sonne to the Father because out of their Sentences and Writings this truth may be deduced howsoeuer it be not formally expressed in the tearme of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So all those are to bee esteemed Protestants who holding nothing against the protestant faith deliuer some doctrines and positions from which some error of Popery or other may bee cleerly refuted whether such error were then maintained by any in the Church of God or no. Of the tearme Visible A Church may be said to be visible two manner of waies either Visible to the whole world and that eminently and in some sort pompously as the Roman Empire kingdom of Naples or respublica Venetorum in which sense the Papists affirm that the true Church ought alwaies to bee visible but wee denie it Or visible to all the members of that Church either such as God hath already called or such as he will call in time who by searching and due inquirie may and shall finde out the true Church their mother In this question we vndertake not to prooue a Protestant Church visible in all Ages in the first acception but in the later onely wee maintaine a visible but not a conspicuous eminent and glorious face of a Church in all Ages consisting of an apparant Hierarchy as the Papists teach I shall not need to adde more distinctions for the explication of this first question I come therefore briefly to the particular assertions seruing for the confirmation and illustration of the generall and mayne conclusion touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church The first assertion The Church in the most strict and proper acception thereof is the whole company of Gods elect Thus S. Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrewes describeth her The generall assembly and Church of the first borne which are written in heauen And Saint Gregory vpon Ezechiel There is one Church of the elect both going before and following after And againe vpon the Canticles Christ according to the grace of his foreknowledge hath built a holy Church of Saints which shall eternally perseuer in grace And Saint Bernard This is the Church of the Elect. Of this Church Saint Austen speaketh most expresly He shall neuer be withdrawne from that Church which is predestinated and chosen before the foundations of the world yet poore Iohn Hus as H. C. a zealous Papist rightly obserueth was burnt by the decree of the Councell of Constance for saying no more in this point then Saint Paul and Saint Gregory said before him viz. Catholica Ecclesia est omnium praedestinatorum duntaxat The Catholique Church consists of all those that are predestinate and of them onely But the best is as our Humfrey speaketh pertinently Combustus est non confutatus Hussius Iohn Hus was indeed burned but hee was neuer confuted His doctrine is written with a poynt of a Diamond neuer to bee razed out for it is Gods truth The foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale The Lord knoweth them that are his And so I fall into my second assertion The second assertion The Church in this acception as it consisteth of the elect onely is knowne to God onely and consequently is inuisible This the Apostle teacheth The Lord knoweth them that are his And the Spirit intimateth as much in these words I will giue him a white stone and in it a new name written which no man knoweth sauing hee that receiueth it For what man knoweth the things of a man saue the spirit of man which is in him The heart of man is deceitfull aboue all things who can knowe it I the Lord search the heart I try the reines This soueraigne priuiledge of Almighty God to sound the bottome of mans heart the faithfull acknowledge in their deuâ—utest prayers as Salomon Thou euen thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men And Ieremie Thou that triest the Righteous and seest the reines and the heart And the eleuen Apostles Thou Lord which knowest the harts of all men Now if God onely knowe the heart he onely knowes who beleeue in him and loue him in sincerity of heart Therefore let none saith Saint Cyprian arrogate that which the Father hath giuen to the Sonne onely to weet in the floore of the Church to take the fanne and seuer the chaffe from the wheat The elect are the first borne whose names are written in heauen Heb. 12. 23. Now what earthly man will take vpon him to reade that which is written in heauen Saint Prosper forbeares it defining that God is hee who defineth the certaine number of those who are predestinated to eternall life Whence we may rightly conclude that the Pope in canonizing Saints and entering them into the heauenly Hierusalem incurres into a praâ—unire by encroching on the prerogatiue of Almighty God who reserueth to himselfe alone the discerning of vessels of honour from vessels of dishonour that is the elect from the reprobate But our aduersaries obiect If wee restraine the Church to the elect and pronounce them inuisible we make a Platonicall Idea or an aerâ—all body or mathematicall abstract of the Church Heereunto we answer first out of Saint Prosper Certum apud Deum esse numerum electorum tam impium est negare quà am ipsi gratiae contraire It is as impious to deny that the number of the elect is certaine with God as to deny grace it selfe And will any dare to call that a fansie or an imaginary Idea which is most certaine in the knowledge of God Secondly we teach not that the Church in this notion is an Idea extra rem or singularia or a body houering in the aire or floting in the fansie we teach that it truly subsisteth partly in heauen in the triumphant and partly on earth in the militant part therof This militant part though in respect of the whol number inward
visible Protestants in all Ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record therefore they were neuer vpon Record These Arguments Master Fisher passed by with a drie foot and by his silence granteth it Thirdly the people of Africa mentioned by Pliny were visible men yet cannot their proper names be shewed proued out of good Authors for good Authors report they had no proper names at all With this rather tentatiue then serious instance M. Fisher and Master Sweet were blankt but Master Boulton though he confessed in effect that they were gon at the common Law yet he sought to relieue them by the Chanâ—â—â—â— by saying that Though those people had no proper names yet they had some descriptions and might bee knowne by some periphrasis But it may bee replied 1. A description or periphrasis is no proper name 2. They cannot produce out of any good Authors any particular description of these men whereby they may bee personally and indiuidually distinguished one from another but onely a generall description that They are a people in Africa neere the hill Atlas which haue no proper names and thus it will bee easie to produce Protestants in all ages in a generall description of certaine men who opposed certaine errors against and besides the Doctrine of Scripture and especially the errors of the Church of Rome Fourthly the Author and Head of the Heretikes called Acephali was a visible man but his name cannot bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors for those Hereticks were therefore called Acephali or headless because the certain Author and Head of that Heresie could neuer bee knowne And heer if it be lawfull to pay Master Fisher with his owne coyne a man might truly say that both himselfe and his asâ—istant Master Sweet and their good friend at a dead 〈◊〉 Master Boulton were all nonplussed with this argument for they replied nothing to it Fiftly the falshood of Master Fishers supposall the defence whereof Master Sweet rashly vndertooke in the conference may bee farther manifested by diuers other instances as First there were 7000. in Elias time who neuer bowed their knee to Baal yet their names cannot be shewed nor prooued out of good Authors Secondly there were who opposed corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises and their false doctrine or at least assented not vnto it in the age immediatly before Christs Incarnation yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Thirdly the first brocher of the errors touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost and Authors of the schism and rent between the Greek and Latine Churches were visible men yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Fourthly they who first brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kinde onely were visible men yet the names of them cannot bee shewed nor proued out of good Authors Fiftly there were Bishops in almost euerie Diocess of England Ireland and other Countries as also Parsons of Parishes succeeding one the other for aboue 1000. yeers yet the names of such Bishops and Parsons cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Sixtly Master Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors from Noah according to the flesh were visible men yet all their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors And here the Protestants might iustly call for names as the Papists did in the conference when their Champions were at a fault First there were a people of Africa neuer christned by any proper names Names Names where are their Names Secondly there was an Author of the Heresie of the Acephali Names Names where is his Name Thirdly there were 7000. in Elias time who neuer bowed their knees to Baal Names Names where are their Names Fourthly there were those who opposed the corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises in the age before Christs Incarnation Names Names where are their Names Fiftly there were those that first broached the error touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost Names Names where are their Names Sixtly there were those that brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kind onely Names Names where are their Names Seuenthly there were Bishops almost in each particular Diocesse of England and Ireland and other Countries as also Parsons of Parishes for aboue 1000. yeeres Names Names where are their Names Eightthly M. Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors descended from Noah were visible men Names Names where are their Names The third Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was implied in D. Featly's challenge to M. Fisher to name any City Town Village or Hamlet where the present Romish faith was taught for fiue hundred yeers more next after Christ. And indeed heer the Title of the Conference was verified M. Fisher was caught in his owne Net for in propounding the Question of the Visibility of the Church in all Ages he spred a strong Net as hee thought to catch D. White and D. Featly in supposing it to be impossible for them to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages especially in the Ages immediatly going before Luther but hee was caught in his owne Net by being put to proue the Visibility of the Romish Church for fiue hundred yeers immediately after Christ. And therefore we turne his owne Ordnance vpon him wherewith hee intended to batter down the walls of our Sion The true Church must haue been visible in all Ages before Luther yea so visible as M. Fisher pretendeth that The Names of the Professors of the faith thereof may be shewed and proued out of good Authors The Romish Church hath not been so visible Therefore the Romish Church is not the true Church The Maior or first Proposition is the Iesuites owne The Assumption is thus prooued No Church holding the entire doctrine of the Councell of Treâ—t in generall or the fifteen Tenets set down in the Conference in particular can be shewed for fiue hundred yeers and more after Christ. But the Romish Church holdeth the doctrine of the Councell of Trent in generall and those fifteen Articles in speciall Therefore the Romish Church cannot bee shewed to haue been visible for fiue hundred yeers after Christ. And first that no Church within the space aboue-named can bee prooued to haue held the foresaid Tenets of the present Romish Church was proued in the Conference by M. Fisher's silence and much more by A. C. his silence in his Answer to the former Conference Heer M. Fisher was as mute as a Fish Campiâ—â— in his tenth reason boldly affirmeth that 〈…〉 prooue the Romish faith but we could not hear so much as any vâ—ces or 〈◊〉 from M. Fisher to testifie much lesse to justifie the Romish faith in the first and best Ages Pliâ—â—â— writes of the â—â—custa or Lobster that he is so afraid of the 〈◊〉 that it is death for him to see him so wee may truely say that M. Fisher was so afraid of the fifteen Articles mentioned in the Conference
the conference make any such long discourse Vntruth for first D. White was appointed in the beginning of the Conference for the last houre and half to answer M. Fisher in the contrary Question for the Visibility of the Roman Church The first houre and half was already spent and therefore D. White had iust occasion and reason to call vpon M. Fisher as hee did to prooue the Visibility of the Romane Church And as for the six points mentioned in the Conference they were the same which D. White shewed Sir Humfrey Linde and mee before the Conference and told vs that he would put M. Fisher vpon the proofe of them Secondly those of the Auditors which sate and stood next about D. White testifie vpon their perfect remembrance that he called vpon M. Fisher to oppose and propounded those six points vnto him set downe in the Conference In which because M. Fisher found himself vnable to deal with Doctor White therefore he makes bold to borrow a point of Iesuiticall honesty Fairly to deny that any such points were proposed Page 35. M. Fisher solemnly protested vpon his conscience that wittingly and willingly hee did neuer wrong either D. White or D. Featly in report of any conference To this nothing was replied and therefore I suppose that the Audience was well satisfied of M. Fisher's sincerity in his relation Vntruth for D. Goad immediately replied that what M. Fisher wrote was for his owne aduantage and therefore he could not but suspect that he did it wittingly and willingly See the Attestation to the Conference Page 37. D. Featly turning to M. Fisher said Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or not To which M. Fisher said I will if you will stay and stretching out his hand he took D. Featly by his arme offering to stay him yet he D. Featly in that abrupt manner went away Vntruth So many words almost so many vntruthes and God be thanked there are witnesses enow to conuince the Counter-relator of a fignall and transcendent leasing in this last passage See the Attestation I might furnish this Head and common place of M. Fisher with many more instances but these may suffice to prooue that M. Fisher deemeth himself one of those that haue past Thyle who if we may beleeue Synesius may lie by authority and without controule Of the second Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Contradiction reade Page 14. Hee alleageth my words thus Although this Question be grounded vpon vncertain and false Supposals For a Church may haue been visible yet not the Names of all visible Professors thereof now to be shewed c. And again page 32. Are all visible Names vpon Record Are all Records in former times now to bee produced And again in the same page M. Sweet calling for Names of Protestants well might say If Protestants had been in all Ages their Names in euery Age might bee produced vnto which as the Protestant Relator saith and the Counter-Relator denieth not D. Featly replied saying This is a non sequitur And page 19. he propoundeth my Argument thus That Church which holdeth this faith you beleeue not we shall be so visible that the Names thereof may be shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this faith Ergo. And again in repeating the like argument That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints is so visible that the Names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages To this Maior Proposition I added page 21. The Maior is ex concessis neither doth the Counter-Relator deny that these words were added Yet page 49. M. Fisher in his Letter to the Earle of Warwick saith They are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook as they stand more engaged than before hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee is able to name Professors in all Ages CONTRADICTION Doctor Featly professeth acknowledgeth that The true Church ought to be so visible as that it is able to name professors in all ages Doctor Featly holdeth not that The true Church ought to be so visible c. but disputed ad hominem and ex concessis aduersarij not according to his owne iudgement Page 32. M. Fisher had no reason to diuert to particular matters in regard it was his Aduersaries fault to spend so long time in impertinent Syllogismes And page 48. Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proof to haue consisted in this that The true Church ought alwaies to be so visible as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named But the Protestants was the true Church We refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferred the Question And in many other places he cals my Argument from the truth of faith to the Visibility of the Church A diuersiue Proof And page 34. Dilatory and iâ—pertinent Syllogisms Yet Page 23. he saith In asking which is the true visible Church wee ask at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true visible Church cannot bee without the true faith yes therefore doo we ask which is the true Church that of it we may learn what is the true faith And page 69. line 14. That the right order of things requireth thâ—â— first it onely be disputed to whom the faith belongeth which is all one say you as if he should say Which is the true visible Church CONTRADICTION In the Question touching the Visibility of the true Church it is impertinent and a diuersion to dispute of the true faith In the Question of the visibility of the true Church it is not impertinent nor a diuersion to dispute of the true faith because the Question of the true faith is vertually at least included in the Question of the true Church Page 37. Doctor Featly in his rising turned to Master Fisher saying Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or no To which Master Fisher said I will if you will stay And in the same page Master Fisher did not prohibit him Doctor Featly to begin with the names of Christ and his Apostles And againe M. Fisher expressed his yeelding to dispute about Christ and his Apostles two seuerall times once thus I will dispute of them in due place Another time thus I wil if you wil stay Yet Pag. 64. he writeth thus M. Fisher and M. Sweet still kept the Aduersary to the point and would not permit him to diuert either to dispute about Christ and his Apostles or any other point vntill names were giuen in all ages The which course they tooke vpon iust and good reason And Pag 65. hee alleadgeth two reasons for it See them there And Page 71. M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him D. Featly out of Scripture of Christ and his Apostles vntill he had made
some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church It is a true rule in Philosophy Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum the bright light of a Demonstration so buzzardeth you that you see not where you are nor knowe what you are about I am so farre from affirming that inward faith without outward profession maketh a visible member of Christs Church that from inward faith I inferre necessarily ex consequenti outward profession which as I sayd in the Conference makes a member of the visible Church Doo you grant the consequence or deny it If you grant it my Argument proceedeth if you deny it confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles your great Clerke Cardinall Bellarmine makes good the consequence in this manner Qui non confitentur fidem sed eâ in corde retentâ exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam non sunt boni nec saluantur cùm ad Roman 10. dicat Apostolus Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore autem fit confessio ad salutem et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus c. They are not good men nor shall bee saued who do not confesse the faith but keeping it in their hearts outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry For the Apostle Rom. 10. saith With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument and demonstrate to me though à posteriori what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori The Protestant Relation Paragraph the ninth touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher out of Doctor Field Doctor Featly That Church whose faith c. But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Ergo. M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to bee shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirme the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should bee made when it came to their turne to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. Master FISHER his Answer These words either were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them beeing in the midst of his Answer in which he went on shewing the necessity of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leasure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among all the Societies of men in the world is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say beeing busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered first that he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without help of Gods grace to attaine the true faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning by which they can better examine controuersies of faith then those that want these abilities Secondly although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church yet it supposing Gods promises that the true Church shall be alwaies visible much helpeth and want of Visibility in any one Age prooueth a company not to bee the true Church Doctor FEATLY'S Reply This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme To your allegation out of D. Field I answer Mitte quod scio Die quod rogo D. Fields speech I acknowledge which is very pertinent to his end but nothing to yours that it is requisite for all Christians especially the weaker to fly to the Church and hide themselues vnder her wings to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites as D. Field prudently obserueth so no Protestant to my knowledge denieth Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught as to honor God their Father so also the Church their Mother Now because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe as if shee were the Spouse of Christ and true Mother of all Christians it is most behoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot the sincere milke and wholsome brests of the one from the poysoned dugs of the other to which end D. Fields Treatise of the Church is a singular help which when I reade mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius so much innobled by Pliny qui rectos â—t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body so able so sinewie a Writer is D. Field who hauing well traced true antiquity doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons and conquereth you with them hee takes away your strongest harnesse in which you trust I meane the Catholique Church proouing it to bee ours not yours To the authority of Scriptures which I here beginne at hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God the pillar of truth in whose determination and Communion both wee and you are to rest But doe you M. Fisher in earnest or with mentall reseruation appeale to D. Fields iudgement Me thinks you draw the latch as if you meant to enter into the penetralia Clozet of that work of the Church If you bee willing so to doe I will leade you into the Entrie Turne me but the page ouer you shall finde before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you be ended a Writ of Error sued against that Church which wil needs be the Mistresse and
that the Thunder of the Popes excommunications so blasted the Hugonotes that their faces were growne as black and vgly as the diuell that FRANCIS IVNIVS had a round clouen foot like an Oxe that BEZA recanted his religion before his death that the reuerend Doctor KING late Bishop of London died a Papist or that the Protestants at Black-â—ryers by knocking certaine pins out of the timber caused that late lamentable fall of the floar wherin about 200 Papists were assembled and neere a 100 slaine They who teach pious frauds and write of holy hypocrisy and doctrinally deliuer the lawfulnesse of equiuocation may securely report whatsoeuer maketh for the Catholique Cause The more incredible and palpable the Lie is the more merit in him that maketh it and in them that beleeue it Popery is a doctrine composed of Lies and Philosophy teacheth that all things are fed and maintained by such things of which they are bred and made The aliments of Popery must bee correspondent to the elements of which it consisteth and verily as hee said in the Poet Si ius violandum est Regni causa violandum if a man must transgresse the Law of honesty and Iustice he must doeit for a Kingdome so it is like they are resolued if a man must lye certainely hee must lye for the good of the Catholick Religion and if lie in so good a cause lye to some purpose The first report concerning the issue of this Conference was of a silly woman said to be present and conuerted thereby to the Romish faith who forsooth stamped vpon her English Bible and solemnly renounced the Protestant Religion vpon it protesting she would neuer trust hereticall Translation any more But alas this was but a silly lye made by some pâ—isne â—ouice of the petty forme to see how a lye in this kinde would take The higher Schollers in the Iesuites Schoole thought it behooued them to make a Catholick or vniuersall lye for the Catholick cause by giuing out that the whole company of Protestants present at that Conference was gayned to the Romish faith yea and many more Protestants then were there also for 100 some say 400 is the summe of the supposed Conuerts whereas there were not neere a hundred persons in both parties in all at the Conference and as wee conceiue neere 20. were professed Papists and knowne Recusants and for the rest which were Noble-men Gentle-men and Gentle-women of quality with some few Diuines there was not one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they haue openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the truth of the Protestant Religion by it and Master BVGGES himselfe whose satisfaction by this Conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church after this Disputation professeth himselfe fully resolued through the mercy of God to whose grace we commend all that loue the Truth in sincerity As for those who contrary to the euidence of truth and so many testimonies beyond all exception are yet resolued to beleeue what the Iesuites report for their owne aduantage in their owne cause the Iesuites wee say who maintaine that a man may vtter an vntruth in words without the guilt of Veniall sinne so hee be sure to make it vp by a mentall reseruation vpon such as stand thus affected wee bestow the blessing of Cardinall CARAFFA who when the people flocked to him in great multitudes to be blest by him beeing ariued at Paris comming as Legate from the Pope lifting vp his eyes deuoutly to heauen and making according to the manner crosses in stead of the accustomed forme of Episcopall benediction blessed the honest vulgar French-men in these words Quandoquidem iste populus vult decipi decipiatur If so be this people will bee gulled or deceiued with such shewes and fopperies let them be gulled or deceiued THE PARTICVLAR CONTENTS OF THIS BOOKE THe occasion and issue of the late Conference had Iune 27. 1623. betweene Doctor White Deane of Carlile and Doctor Featly with Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites Page 1. A Relation of what passed in the said Conference touching the Visibility of the Church page 6. Additions to the former Relation of the Conference page 29. An Attestation concerning some particulars set downe in the said Relation entituled The Fisher catched in his owne Net page 38. A Remonstrance sent in a Letter by Doctor Featly to his worthy friend Sir Humfrey Lynde touching the former Conference held at his house wherein is maintained that 1 Conferences in poynt of Religion are lawfull and vsefull and therfore to be iustified 2 The Method also vsed in the former Conference maintained and iustified 3 The proofes alledged in the Conference were direct not diuersiue H* A succinct or briefe discussion of the two Questions which were propounded by the Iesuite by Distinctions Assertions 1 viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible L1 2 Whether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages O2 A Defence of Doctor Featlie's proceedings in the Conference R3 wherin Rules are prescribed for Disputations and it is prooued and confirmed that 1 No conclusion of Faith may bee prooued out of meere humane testimonies S1 2 The Protestants Church might be visible in all Ages yet their Names not now extant S3 3 The Romish Church was inuisible in the first and best Ages T1 A Prooeme to Master Fisher's Answer to the Conference wherein is shewed that absurd Paradoxes are miserably defended by Master Fisher. T3 An Answer to the Title of Master Fisher's booke masked vnder the Name of A. C. V3 An Answer to the Preface thereof V 4. A Table of the principall matters contained in the same which are reduced vnto fiue heads viz. 1 Vntruths 2 Contradictions 3 Idle obseruations and exceptions 4 Impertinences or mal ' à proposes 5 Vaine repetitions Y 3. A Reply to Master Fisher's Counter Relation touching the occasion of the Conference page 37. The Answer of Sir Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite p. 39. A Reply to Master Fisher's Answer or the defence of the Protestant Relation diuided into Paragraphs Paragraph 1. touching the entry into the Conference page 45. 2 Of the state of the Question page 49. 3 The conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants page 52. 4 Of the Inuisibility of the Romane Church for more then 500 yeeres next after Christ page 54. 5 Concerning the parts of the Question page 59. 6 Of the pretended necessity of naming Protestants in all Ages page 63. 7 Of the comparison betweene a proofe à Priori and à Posteriori page 74. 8 Of the Demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith page 88. 9 Touching a testimony alledged by M. Fisher out of D. Field page 113. 10 Of the Induction breaking
telling him there was no hope of saluation without the Church there was no Catholique Church but theirs and to beleeue the Catholique Church was the Article of his Creed and by it there could no other Church bee meant but the Church of Rome because it could not bee prooued by all the Protestants in the Kingdome that they had any Church before Luther This Gentleman beeing much troubled in his minde with these and the like suggestions who all his life time had bin and professed himself a religious Protestant becam now more sick in minde then body and if by Gods mercifull goodnesse he had not recouered of this sicknesse it is to be feared he had fallen both from his Mother Church and his former faith as some of the neerest of his owne bloud to his great griefe haue lately beene seduced by like inticements After his recouery beeing still much troubled in minde with these former suggestions of the Popish Priests he repaired to Sir Humfrey Lynde Knight who by reason of his alliance and long acquaintance with him gaue the best satisfaction he could to his said Cousin Master Bugges who seemed to take content in such his conferences and to be well satisfied by him in all points But the Popish Priests and Iesuites not desisting to creepe-in further where they had once made a breach perseuered still in questioning him Where his Church was before Luther Whereupon hee repayred againe to Sir Humfrey Lynde and required some further satisfaction of him concerning that demand And thereupon Sir Humfrey Lynde told him It was first in Christ and the Apostles consequently also conspicuous in the Primitiue Church for 600 yeeres after Christ after which time some errors crept into the Church as diseases into a mans body so that the Church which Luther and we acknowledge was in generall the same Christian Church as his body was the same substantiall body beeing now well and lately sick though different in the qualities And for the better strengthening of his mind the said Sir Humfrey Lynde inuited him to his house in the Countrey thereby the better to preuent the daily sollicitation of those dangerous seducers And after his returne to London the said Sir Humfrey Lynde going to Master Bugges his house in Drury-lane to visit him found Master Fisher the Iesuite there where after some debates about Religion and the visibility of the Church M. Fisher called for pen inke and set down this question in terminis thereto adding vnder his hand that he would answer vpon it negatiuely as challenging and expecting opposers deliuering also the paper into the hands of the said Sir Humfrey Lynde who vpon view of it answered that it was an historicall question and not so proper for disputation But Master Fisher vrging it Sir Humfrey told him if he would goe to Doctor Whites where formerly he had beene the said Doctor would easily resolue those doubts Which beeing refused by the Iesuite the said Sir Humfrey did then returne him his paper againe and so left him About two daies after Master Bugges repaired to Sir Humfrey Lynde and intreated him for his satisfaction to giue Master Fisher a meeting saying that Master Fisher had againe told him that he would maintaine what he had set down and that our Diuines could not prooue our Church visible before Luthers time Whereupon Sir Humfrey told him that D. White and Doctor Featly were to dine with him vpon Fryday following and if after dinner Master Fisher would come thither with foure or six at the most they should bee admitted for his sake and his wises who by reason of such sollicitation were troubled in their mindes and satisfaction should be giuen as occasion required And these were the true causes of the meeting as is before declared Vpon which Fryday beeing the twenty seuenth of Iune 1623. Master Fisher Master Sweet Iesuites and some others with them came to Sir Humfrey Lyndes house into a little dining-roome where they found the aforesaid Master Bugges his wife and children and others of Sir Humfreys friends that had then dined with him together with some others also whose comming in as the said Sir Humfrey did not expect so hee could not with ciuility put them forth his house but did instantly cause his doores to bee locked vp that no more might enter in notwithstanding which his command some others also came in scatteringly after the conference began At the same time and place Doctor White and Doctor Featly beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde and staying a while after had notice giuen them that Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites were in the next roome ready to conferre with them touching a question set downe by Master Fisher vnder his owne hand in these words viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all ages visible and especially in the ages going before Luther And whether the names of such visible Protestants in all ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors This question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named and it beeing notified vnto them that there were certaine persons who had bin sollicited and remaining doubtfull in Religion desired satisfaction especially in this point the said Doctors were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point the rather because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers and disperse them in secret in which they vaunt that no Protestant Minister dareth encounter them in this point A Relation of vvhat passed in a Conference touching the visibility of the Church Iune xxvii 1623. AT the beginning of this meeting when the disputants were set D. Featly drew out the paper in which the question aboue rehearsed was written with these words in the margent viz. I will answer that it was not demanded of M. Fisher whether this were his own hand Which after he had acknowledged D. Featly began as followeth D. Featly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To this vniuersall demand requiring rather an historicall large volume then a Syllogisticall briefe dispute we answer that 1. Although diuine infallible faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane history but vpon diuine reuelation as is confessed by your owne Schoolmen and expresly by Cardinall Bellarmine Historiae humanae faciunt tantùm fidem humanam cui subesse potest falsum Humane histories and records beget onely an humane faith or rather credulity subiect to error not a diuine and infallible beliefe which must bee built vpon surer ground 2. Although this question be grounded vpon vncertaine and false supposals for a Church may haue bin visible yet not the names of all visible professors thereof now to be shewed and prooued out of good Authors there might bee millions of professors yet no particular and authenticall record of them by name Records there might bee many in antient time yet not now extant at least for vs to come by Yet wee will not refuse to deale with you in our owne question if you in like manner will
half that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Prooue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeeres these present Tenets of the Romane Church viz. 1. That all power of order and Iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the Church of Rome 2. That no Scripture sense or translation thereof is authenticall vnlesse the same were receiued from the Church of Rome 3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall Custos of vnwritten traditions 4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authority of the Pope and that hee might ratify and disannuall whatsoeuer pleased him in them 5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints 6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes Prooue all or any of these and we will neither carp nor cauill about names but answer directly without all delayes euasions or tergiuersations M. Fisher. When you Doctor White or Doctor Featly haue prooued your Church to bee visible in all Ages and named visible Protestants then I promise you to prooue the Visibility of the Catholique Romane Church but that is not done by you yet D. Featly It had bin done but for your delayes and tergiuersations Answer briefly and directly to my former argument and I will descend to my Induction and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all Ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith in which wee differ from your Romane Church That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can bee saued is so visible that the names of the professors thereof in all Ages may bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors But the Protestant Church is that Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therfore the Protestants Church is so visible that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages c. The Maior is ex concessis What say you to the Minor M. Fisher. I distinguish the Minor D. Featly Vpon what tearme doe you distinguish M. Fisher. I distinguish of the proposition not of any tearme D. Featly Heere is againe another straine of new Logick to distinguish of a proposition and apply the distinction to no tearme howsoeuer I am glad to heare you distinguish and not simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith Mark I beseech you you that are present that M. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition his conscience will not suffer him simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith we simply and slatly and in down-right tearmes deny that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith M. Fisher. I answered you before that your Minor is false and impertinent D. Featly I have prooued already that it is pertinent what say you to the truth of it M. Fisher. This is to diuert from the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholique Primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the Visibility of your Church which you ought to prooue out of good Authors D. Featly May not a man prooue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing Authors for it M. Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori D. Featly What a reason is this May not an effect be proued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius M. Sweet Leaue these Logick Disputes Bring the names of your Protestants that is it we expect D. Featly If I should relinquish my former argument to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer you M. Fisher would report that I was non-plussed as you slandered D. White in a former conference who I tell you M. Fisher is able to teach vs both Whereto M. Fisher replied nothing To preuent all such mis-reports to the wrong of either it was mooued by the hearers that it should be written downe by the common Writer of the Conference that both the Disputants beeing willing to proceed D. Featly was desired by the company because it was late to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all Ages This beeing written and subscribed by them both D. Featly proceeded to his Induction D. Featly An induction is a forme of argument in which wee proceed from enumeration of particulars to conclude a generall after this manner It is so in this and this et sic de eaeteris and so in the rest Therefore it is so in all According to this forme of arguing thus I dispute The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may bee produced in the first hundred yeeres and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer at whose name all knees must bow both in heauen earth and vnder the earth at which words all the company on both sides expressed an holy reuerence After Christ I name the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and because there were few Writers in the first Age at least whose vndoubted works haue comne to our hands I name onely Ignatius after the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul yet not denying but that many others may be named M. Fisher. These are enow for the first Age Christ the twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatitius Heere at the name of Ignatius some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident saying We are sure enough Saint Ignatius is on our side D. Featly I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola but Ignatius the Martyr betweene whom there is more difference in quality then distance in time M. Fisher. Name of all the Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once will you haue mee name men of so many Ages with one breath Will you haue mee eat my whole dinner at a bit Can I name twelue seuerally but I must name first one then two then three and so forward I name as I said before in the first Age for our Religion our blessed Lord and Sauiour the Founder of all Religion the twelue Apostles and after them Saint Paul and Ignatius the Martyr For the second Age I name Iustin Martyr Clemens Alexandrinus and Saint Irenaeus and I beginne first with Christ and his Apostles M. Fisher. You shall not beginne with Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles where I should
begin but in the first Age and with the first of it shall I make a Catalogue of the Christian Church according to the seuerall Ages and leaue out Christ and his Apostles in the first Age Answer first to them and I will proceed to others M. Fisher. Name the rest in all Ages and then I will answer you D. Featly First answer to the first Age and then I will proceed to the second If you grant mee the first Age then I will proceed presently to the second otherwise I must stay in the first M. Fisher. Vnlesse you giue mee a Catalogue of names throughout all Ages I will not answer D. Featly Will you not answer Christ and his Apostles in the first place M. Fisher. I will not before you haue named the rest D. Featly Will you not bee tryed by Christ and his Apostles That which Christ and his Apostles taught in the first Age was taught by succeeding Christians in all Ages this is confessed on both sides But the doctrine of the Protestants was taught by Christ and his Apostles in the first Age Therefore the doctrine of the Protestants was taught in all Ages Answer this Syllogisme if you will not answer my former induction M. Fisher. I will not answer you any thing till you haue made your Catalogue D. Featly M. Fisher I charge you as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of Iudgement answer now vpon your conscience before all this Company whether you beleeue that Christ and his Apostles taught our faith or yours this is the maine point of all answer directly to my Induction Notwithstanding this deepe charge M. Fisher still refused to answer to the argument of instance in Christ and his Apostles whereupon diuers expressing their distaste at such refusall desired D. Featly to surcease telling him that hee ought not to talk any longer with such a one who refused to answer Christ and his Apostles And so the conference brake vp hauing lasted about foure houres Additions to the former Conference IF any man maruell that in so many houres spent in the Conference so few arguments were discust or rather not any one throughly vntwisted to the end as the Opponent desired the cause hereof was the Iesuites diffusiue discursiue answers but especially his dilatory cautions and tergiuersations who would not suffer the Opponent to proceed in his argument without dictating it first to the common Writer of the conference and then reading it and setting his hand thereto which after hee had done the principall Respondent M. Fisher meditates by himself an Answer which hee first writeth in a priuate paper then sheweth it to his Assistant M. Sweet and two other that stood by according to whose aduice he addeth blotteth out and altereth what they thought fit After this he dictateth it out of his priuate paper to the common Writer of the conference then resumes this schedule from him and hauing compar'd it with his priuate paper subscribes it as a Record and then reads it openly This long spinning wreathing and winding he vsed to euery Syllogisme which was so tedious and irksome to the Auditory that a Protestant Diuine standing by vpbraided him in this manner M. Fisher what haue wee deserued of you that you should thus torment vs to make vs stay half an houre for an Answer to euery Syllogisme and Prosyllogisme The Lord of Warwick also more than once called vpon M. Fisher to come to the point to answer briefly and directly without discourses or vnâ—â—cessary distinctions A short lesson may be long in playing where ther are more rests than notes as it was heer Yet all that passed in the conference is not particularly punctually set down Some things were omitted which omissions because the Author complaineth of wee thought fit heer to supply 1. About the entry into the conference M. Fisher offred a paper to bee read part whereof was read by D. Featly the rest he refused to read saying M. Fisher lis contestata est wee are already agreed vpon the Question we haue receiued the Tenet vnder your owne hand and are prepared to oppose it it is no time now to tie your Opponent to new conditions 2. About the propounding the first Argument when M. Fisher carped at the word eternall D. White to try winde M. Fisher did cast a Syllogisme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to prooue the eternity of faith from the eternity of the cause the diuine predestination Whereunto when M. Fisher or some standing by answered that in that sense all other things might be said to be eternall another Protestant standing by added that faith might bee said to be eternall in that sense in which eternall is taken for eâ—iternall so the soules of men are said to be eternal because though they had a beginning yet they shall haue no end Neither so said M. Fisher may faith be said eternall because the Apostle saith Faith ceaseth These Answers and Replies vpon the By wee omitted because D. Featly sufficiently expressed his minde by the Synonymie which he added to eternall to wit perpetuall and besides the disputation was not of the habit or infused grace of faith which Saint Paul saith ceaseth but of the obiect or doctrine of faith which is eternall in that sense in which S. Iohn calleth the Gospell eternall Reu. 14. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I saw an Angell fleeing in the midst of heauen hauing the eternall Gospell 3. About the middle of the conference D. Featly took occasion by the Iesuites often inculcating and ingeminating the same Answer to tax their battologie or vain repetitions in their Iesus Psalter and other Books of Praiers saying M. Fisher I think you partly beleeue that the often repeating the same Answer addeth truth and strength to your Answer as you are perswaded that the saying-ouer the same Praiers and repeating the name Iesu so many times by tale addeth merit to the Praiers M. Sweet What fault can you finde with the often repeating the name Iesu Doth not the holy Ghost in the Scripture diuers times reiterate the Attribute Holy saying Sanctus sanctus sanctus D. Featly Is there no difference between the repeating the word Holy or Sanctus three times and repeating the name Iesus thirty times at the least nay saith a Protestant standing by a hundred and thirty times M. Fisher. In one of Dauid's Psalms these words for his mercy endureth for euer are repeated in euery verse D. Featly It is true these words for his mercie endureth for euer are elegantly and sweetly repeated as the burden of that heauenly Song but note withall M. Fisher that something commeth betwixt and that this Epiphonema or clause is applied in euery verse to a seuerall blessing of God there remembred what is this to the saying continuately Iesu Iesu Iesu forty times in a breath If this be not the vain repetition or babbling forbidden in praier by our Sauiour Mat. 6. 7. I know not what it is M.
terrae faecibus contundendo segregant Metallici ita veritatis aureus Thesaurus collisu rationum mundatur à faecibus c. As those that work vpon Mines seuer the precious metall from earthly dregs by beating the Ore in the stamping-mill so the golden treasure of Truth is seuered from dregs of error and cleared by being beaten out by Argumentations to or against Ludouicus Viues long ago obserued that the true faith and Religion is like gold which is bettred by the hammer but false religion Heresie and superstition are like Alchumy-stuffe or glasse which cannot endure the stroke but are battered in pieces by it The Christian Religion neuer refuseth touch of argument but the Gentiles of old and the Mahumetans at this day refuse all triall by disputation nay they prohibit it vnder paine of death The Hussites as Cocleus relates in their storie were readie to bid their Aduersaries battell by disputation but their Aduersaries were not so readie to vndertake them Nay Iohn Gerson in his Epistle to the Arch-bishop of Prague is so far from encouraging him to put the matter to a triall in disputation that he aduiseth him to take a farre different course with them whom he there falsly calls Pseudo-doctores false teachers Now saith he The onely readie way to cut downe Heresies is by the temporall sword Miracles are ceased neither is it lawfull now to tempt God to confirme our faith tanquam nouellam by Miracles Neque rursus in disputando apud tales pertinaci animositate contendentes et innitentes propriae prudentiae vllus vnquam erit finis quin potius nimis altercando iuxta verbum Senecae deperdetur veritas scandalizabitur populus laedetur quoque summa charitas Denique talis obstinatorum proteruitas incidit in illud poetae Aegrescitque medendo Neither will there bee any end of disputing with such pertinacious contenders who rely vpon their owne wisdome nay rather according to the words of Seneca the truth will bee lost with much wrangling the people will bee scandalized charity wouÌ„ded in a word the proteruitie of obstinate persons will make good that of the Poet The wound is the worse for the cure So little did the Papists gaine whatsoeuer faire glosse Gerson puts vpon it by disputation with those noble Fore-runners of our Protestant Faith and far lesse haue there successours gained by their disputations in Germany France and England I need adde no more to our disputers against disputations in generall because they fight but aloof off I am now to buckle with those who take the matter manner of this conference to task against which as I vnderstand by you they obiect that it was but a Flourish no Fight a praeludium and no true Encounter no Argument in it prosecuted to the full This obiection might haue been spared because in the Conference it self it is confessed that it grew not to that maturity nor attained that progresse or issue which was desired and there also it is expressed whose fault it was If a heauy and dull Beast in rich trappings and furniture making great shew of metall by rising and curuetting yet beeing spurred and lashed by the Rider and beaten by all the standers by wil not mend his pase what disparagement is this to the Rider Howsoeuer say they the grapes being not ripe were not fit for the presse yet as vnripe as they were they quenched then his thirst for whom they were gathered and they who without knowledge of the principal Owners put them in a few weeks so often in the presse affirme that the wine lyes not vpon their hand Notwithstanding this and some other testimonies of some kind of approbation of this rather assay then performance I had buried this Embryo as soone as it was borne and as it came into the world without a Midwife so it should haue gone out of the world without a Bel-man had not the slanderous tongues of enemies saued the life of it who both in England and beyond the seas reported confidently that it was such a mis-shapen and deformed monster that the parents were ashamed it should see the Sunne To checke these most false and iniurious reports and preuent future scandall it was in a manner necessarie that this pamphlet should bee suffered to fly abroad And now that it is abroad what doe they libell against this little Impe vnable to defend it self against such strife of tongues They say In it the proofes are diuersiue and that I decline the method required by Master Fisher plainely to proue the visibilitie of our Church by producing Catalogues of names in al ages beginning from Luther and so ascending vpwards to Christ and his Apostles When I read this obiection in your letter I could scarce forbeare laughing because it brought to my remembrance the simple Answer of a fresh-water souldiour who when his Antagonist remembred him with a smart blowe or two vpon his head and thighes exclaimed What man Canst thou not see my buckler Is not my buckler broad enough I saw M. Fishers buckler and withall I obserued his blind sides at which I laid Am I therefore to bee blamed should I aduise him as Aiax doth Vlysses Post clypeumque late et mecum contende sub illo Lie behinde thy buckler and contend with me vnder it The truth is that in the ages immediately before Luther and since the 1000 yeer in which Satan was let loose the Papists haue much to say for the visibility yea and pomp too of their degenerating Church but in the Primitiue tymes especially in the golden Age in which Christ and his Apostles and their immediate successors and Scholars liued and died they haue no more to say for the visibilitie of their now new Romish Church then Master Fisher and Master Sweet said in the conference Whosoeuer should haue discoursed in those dayes of Masses without Communicants or Communion without the Cup or the Lords Supper without Bread or Wine in substance or prayers without vnderstanding or adoring the Cross or Dirges for the dead or blessing Salt and Spettle or censing Images or baptizing bells or hallowing grains and medals or wearing Dei's or praying by tale vpon Beads or of the circumgestation of the Hoast or Priest shauen crownes or Monks Cowles or Cardinals Hatts or the Popes â—triple Crowne or his pardons and dispensations and taxes for all manner of sinnes or his canonizing Saints oâ— deposing Kings or the like would haue been thought besides himselfe This is the true cause why the question being propounded Of all ages before Luther I chose rather to descend froÌ„ Christ to Luther then ascend froÌ„ Luther to Christ and his Apostles Demosthenes will by no meanes endure that his aduersarie Aeschines should prescribe him his method he saith It is against the golden rule to be kept in all iudgements 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Yea but they say this is not all for you turned quite out of the way You should haue proued
calling it bee inuisible yet in respect of the outward calling to and profession of sauing faith it is alwaies more or lesse visible The elect are visible men and exist in the visible congregations of Christians as the apple in the ey or a Diamond in a Ring or the soule in the body As Athens is called the Greece of Greece so may wee tearme them the Church of the Church for in respect of them principally are those glorious titles giuen and gracious promises made to the Church which are registred in holy Scripture The third assertion which trencheth neer vpon our question The Church in a larger notion comprehendeth all those who eternally professe the true worship of God in Christ. Thus Lactantius defineth the Church Catholica Ecclesia est quae verum Dei cultum retinet hic est fons veritatis hoc est domicilium fidei hoc Templum Dei quo si quis non intrarit vel a quo si quit exiuerit à spe vitae ac salutis aeternae alienus est c. That is the Catholique Church which retaines the true worship of God This is the Fountaine of truth this the House of faith this is the Temple of God he that shall not enter heerein or shall depart hence is farre from the hope of life and eternall saluation Of the Church in this acception our Sauiours words are to bee vnderstood If hee refuse to heare the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican And Saint Lukes Then pleased it the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church c. And Saint Paul 's Despiseyee the Church of God c And in his Epistle to the Ephesians Vnto him bee glory in the Church c. And to Timothy How shall hee take care of the Church of God The Church in this notion is in Scripture compared to a field wherein are tares with the wheat a floore wherein is chaffe with graine a net wherein are sweet fish and rotten an house in which are precious vessels and vile to the Ark in which were cleane and vncleane beasts To the Church taken in this sense Christ directeth vs Tell the Church And Saint Paul That thou maist knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy self in the House of God which is the Church of the liuing God And Saint Cyprian Hee hath no right to the rewards of Christ who leaueth the Church of Christ hee is a stranger hee is a profane person for hee cannot haue God to his Father who hath not the Church for his Mother And Saint Augustine I will not account thee a Christian vnlesse I see thee in the Church The fourth assertion The Church in this notion as it extends to all that professe the true Religion and participate in the pledges of saluation was euer is and shall be in some degree visible to the end of the world That it hath euer beene hitherto visible all Histories accord and that it shall so continue to the worlds end our Sauiours words are our warrant Goe yee and teach all nations c. andle I am with you alwaies euen vnto the end of the world For the continuance of Gods Word the Prophet Esay is most peremptory This is my couenant with thee saith the Lord c. My words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from hence-foorth for euer And Christs words are as direct for the Sacraments that they shall bee administred till his second comming As oft as yee eat of this Bread and drink of this Cup yee shew foorth the Lords death till hee come And lastly S. Paul 's words are as expresse for the Ministery He gaue some Apostles some Prophets c. till wee all come in the vnity of the faith c. It is true Antichrist shall make great hauocke of the Church and there shall be such a falling away that Christ at his second comming shall scarce finde faith on the earth false prophets and false Christs shall arise and seduce if it were possible the elect but that is not possible hell-gates shall neuer so farre preuaile against the Church Whatsoeuer becommeth of hypocrites and temporizers it is certaine that the elect shall remaine in it and retaine the 〈◊〉 faith and if they retaine it they will also pâ—ofessed it 〈◊〉 for with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse 〈◊〉 with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation Sainâ— Austen thus stoppeth the mouthes of the â—onatists What is that that thou sayest The Church 〈◊〉 already perished and gone out of all Nations 〈◊〉 therefore the Gospell is preached that it may bee in all Nations therefore euen vnto the end of the world 〈◊〉 Church shall bee in all Nations I may saue the labour of heaping more testimonies to confirme this point because M. Fisher in his reflection on the Conference spendeth many lines and much labour in fortifying it as a strong bulwark as hee imagineth against vs. I conclude therefore with Saint Ambrose Ecclesia 〈◊〉 potest effluere non potest The Church may bee euershadowed it cannot quite faile or bee 〈◊〉 The fift assertion The militant visible Church is not alwaies equally visible but sometimes it is more visible sometimes it is lesse It was more visible in the Prophet Dauid 's dayes when he sung In Iurie is God knowne his name is great in Israel then it was in the time that Hosea prophecies of Israel shall remain many daies without a King and without a sacrifice It was more visible in the daies Malachie foreshews of From the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe there of my name shall be great among the Gentiles then in the daies Eliah complaineth of I euen I am left alone The Church was more visible in the daies of Salomon when she is compared to a Queene honourably attended then in the daies Saint Iohn foretelleth of when shee is compared to a Woman flying into the wildernesse Shee was more visible in the daies Esay fortelleth of Kings shall bee thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy nursing mothers then in the daies of Antichrists tyrannie when Kings shall giue their Kingdome to the beast In regard of this mutable estate of the militant Church Micah giueth her this Motto Reioyce not ouer mee O my enemy though I fall I shall rise againe And Salomon likeneth her to the Moone My Loue is faire as the Moone To which ground Saint Austen alluding interpreteth Obscuram Lunam Ecclesiam the Moone in the Eclipse or darkned the Church in trouble and persecution And Saint Ambrose Ecclesia vt Luna defectus habet et orâ—us frequentes The Church as the Moone hath her often waxings and wainings And in his Epistle The Moone it selfe whereby in the
loquuntur tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as biblioruÌ„ foedissimè violata 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit vt Euangelium Mathaei Acta resigerent Apostolica Desperatio c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas Desperatiâ— I may adde following his tune Quid Piggiâ— Hosio Lyndano quid Stapletono Bellarmino c Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture What was the cause that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul Desperation I may goe on following the same note and tune and say What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures Dead inke Desperation What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner rem inanimem et â—â—tam a thing without life and dumb Desperation What is the cause that Piggius Ecehius 〈◊〉 Pereonius Norris diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency and obscure the excellencie of Scripture by terming it Nasum cereum Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam Lesbiam regulam a Nose of waxe a black Gospell inkie Diuinity a Lesbian rule Desperation They appeale from Scripture vnder pretence that it is an imperfect rule and dumbe Iudge and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs why because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause The eightth Assertion The paucitie of right Beleeuers and obscurity and latencie of the true Church protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof is most clearely foretold in Scripture First by our Sauiour When the Sonne of man commeth shall he finde faith on the earth Maldonat the Iesuite answereth Vix fideminueniet He shall scarce finde faith False Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall seduce many yea they shall do signes and wonders and seduce if it were possible the Elect. Secondly by Saint Paul the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exertè expresly that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith And in the second to the Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first Thirdly by Saint Iohn After a thousand yeers Satan must bee loosed a little season And The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen And All the world wondred after the Beast and they worshipped the Beast saying Who is like vnto the Beast c. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Booke of Life c. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications c. And no maruell that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them The Serpent casts out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that hee might cause hâ—r to be caried away of the flood I might alledge many pregnant testimonies both out of the antient Fathers the learned Papists also of later time for the blacke and gloomie darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist But Saint Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church that I need adde no more Ecclesia est Sol Luna et Stellae quando Sol obscurabitur et Luna non dabit lucem suam et Stellae cadent de coelo Ecclesia non apparebit impijs vltra modum saeuientibus The Church is Sunne Moone and Starres when the Sunne shall be darkned and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen the Church shall not appeare the wicked raging against her without all measure Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith I answer Much euery way It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon and offensiue also The defensiue may be thus framed That Church which hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number resembleth the true Church as the state thereof is described in her later Ages But the Protestant Church especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her then against her We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner The true Church in the later Ages thereof must be in great distresse and driuen to a narrow compasse The Popish Church hath not beene so Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church For they make eminent Visibility and splendour a note of their Church If they answer that their Church vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors hath beene grieuously persecuted I reply First that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies were rather our Martyrs then theirs because they sealed with their bloud the truth of Scripture-Doctrine and not of Popish traditions or additions Secondly those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church long before the 1000 yeere in which Satan was let loose but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther the best way to represse their insolency is to put a crosse interrogatorie to them Where did your Church lie hid When did it fly into the Wildernesse for the space of 1260 dayes When did the Beast with seuuen heads and tenne hornes push at it In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her As for the predecessors of our faith and Standard-bearers of our Religion it appeareth vpon their owne records how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians Lyonists Henricians Petrobrusians Albingenses Waldenses Wickleuists Thaborites Hussites Lutherans Caluinists and Hugonots and the like Heere see the craft of Satan and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers they wasâ—e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters and require of vs Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine They traduce vs for paucity whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number They vpbraid vs with those maymes and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away as shall appeare more at large hereafter The ninth Assertion
et fideli profana et perfidâ— facta est Ita quae Apostolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita ea pòst à patribus caepere queri ambigi Quae priscis 〈◊〉 scrupulum mâ—hebaâ—â— ea probabilia visa sunt 〈◊〉 à receâ—ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebanturâ—â—ra Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt â—odie 〈◊〉 defendunt pertinaciter et dissentientes 〈◊〉 First Heathenish and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in these were the seedes of ill examples and orders or customes these at the first beeing small were not obserued sometimes they were spied and checked Afterwards by degrees they more and more increased then were they confirmed and spred further till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out as it were with a Canker and the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 and faithfull spouse became a profane and disloyall strumpet So those things which in the Apostles time were vnheard of after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers Those things which the anâ—ient Doctors made scruple of seemed probable to some and were held true by the later School-men Canonists Those things which they held but as opinions the Papists at this day defend obstinately and condemne all that dissent from them Iust as Velleius Paterculus reports of the Romane State that degenerating from the antient vertue and glory it fell maturè à rectis in vitia à vitijs in prana prâ—uis in praecipitia from good to bad from bad to worse from worse to worst of all so the Roman Church in tract of time fell from certain truths to doubtfull Tenets from doubtfull Tenets 〈◊〉 manifest errors from manifest errors at last to heresies where we now finde them and there leaue them because they are resolued there to stick The generall Conclusion The Protestant Church according to the distinctions and Assertions premised hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible Thus much of the first Question propounded by the Iesuite touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages The second Question touching the Catalogue of names follows Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages The second Question WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors To this Question I answer as to the former by Distinctions Assertions The first Distinction Visible Protestants are either Such as subscribe to the harmony of Protestant Confessions in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion Or such as haue deliuered either implicitly or explicitly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 positiuely or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of opposition some point or points of Protestant Doctrine especially if it cannot be proued that they held any doctrine de fide repugnant to the Protestants faith or different from them in any point of moment or very materiall much lesse fundamentall In this Question neither is it reasonable neither indeed doth the Iesuite demand that wee should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense but in the later onely His words are For auoiding of all mis-taking and consequently needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes M. Fisher in his Question requireth first that names of men in all Ages be set down whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants Secondly that those men whose names they set downe bee shewed out of good Authors to agree in houlding some points of faith in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques Thirdly that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another and from the present Protestant Doctrine The second Distinction The Names of Protestants are of two sorts Proper as Bertram Lollard Dulcinus Caluin Beza Iewell c. Appellatiue as Protestants Gospellers Reformers Albingenses Waldenses Lionists Piccards Turlepins and generally all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants to distinguish themselues from others or cast vpon them by way of reproach by their Aduersaries whose reproaches they and wee accounted their glory In this Question although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense yet he cannot be so grossely ignorant as not to knowe that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church euen à posteriori to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages No man doubteth that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time to produce that sacred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down neither can any man liuing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them No Geographer will euer make question but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa and diuerse parts of Asia vnder the Turk and Tartar knowne by the names of Abyssens Maronits Cophti Armenians Georgians or the like and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them For my part I know but one Greek Christian sometime Student in Oxford Metrophanes Critopulus The third Distinction These words Protestants are to be named may admit of a double construction Either that names ought to be produced and that we are bound to produce them to proue the Visibility of our Church as if without such producing the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice Or that such names may bee produced and that there are such Records yet extant out of which wee are able to makes a Catalogue of Protestant professors In this question the Iesuite holdeth that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced that is ought to bee produced and must of necessitie to proue the visibility of our Church but hee denieth it in the second sense that is that such names can bee produced On the contrary my Tenets are that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense that is are â—minable but not in the first sense Though wee need not make any such Catalogue yet ex superabundanti I refuse not to doe it our cause is so richly furnished that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it for the reasons partly alledged in the conference partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof The fourth Distnction Good Authors are of two sorts Of the first rank and such are Classicke Theological or Historical Authors against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except but both account them of great worth and credit Of the second ranke and such are those Authors who though they are not of any singular or eminent note yet they may bee tearmed good according to the ages in which they liued which afforded no better In this question I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only but admit also of those
Prague had in his studie painted with a garland about it and the Vniuersitie of Oxford crowned his person and doctrine with a more fragrant Garland of praises whose doctrine was not onely fauoured by diuers Nobles but also the third part of the Clergie of England I say shall wee so much wrong our iudgements to imagine that a man of so rare learning both diuine and humane so excellently read in Scriptures should bee the Father of such monstrous bastardly opinions as are fathered vpon him by some of the Fathers in the Councell of Constance viz. Deus tenetur obedire diabâ—lo and the like No no. That diuel was a lying spirit in the mouth of his accusers which afterwards possessed the Romish Priests and Iesuits and by them vented these prodigious slanders vpon our doctrine affirming that wee teach that God is the author of sin and that all sinnes are equall in Gods sight that a man may lie for Gods honour that Protestants are bound to auoid all good workes and many the like Assertions much more condemned and substantially refuted by Protestants then any Papists whatsoeuer The Lyndians as Lactantius reporteth worshipped God by execrations and maledictions Lyndanus and other of our Papists as it seemeth are akin to them they think they doo God good seruice in blaspheming and scandalizing the truth of God and the professors thereof The best is illi linguarum nos â—urium Domini sumus their tongues are their owne so our eares are our owne they are masters of their speech we of our beliefe they may speake what they list but wee are not bound to beleeue but what wee see proofe and reason for The third Assertion God hath and alwaies had many true seruants and worshippers of him in secret whose names cannot bee produced nor rehearsed by an exact Catalogue I suppose no Papist wil deny this conclusion because it is grounded on the Oracle of God When Eliah complained The children of Israel haue forsaken thy Couenant throwne down thine Altars and slain thy Prophets with the sword and I euen lonely am left c. the Oracle answereth Yet I haue reserued to my self seuen thousand in Israel c. Such were they that sighed for all the abominations that were in Ierusalem vpon whose fore-head God commanded a marke to bee set Such were those who though they remained most of them in the outward communion with the Church of Rome yet groned vnder that Babylonish yoke and in heart abhorred the idolatrie and superstition raigning in that Church and they desired with sighes and teares a reformation before Luther Of whom Petrus de Aliaco the Cardinall thus writeth As there were seuen thousand that had not bowed to Baal so it is to bee hoped that there are some that desire the Churches reformation Though Rainerius speak but of one and fortie schools and somewhat a lesser number of Churches of the Waldenses yet no man will make question but that there might bee in all the world very many more especially â—ith all those Churches and Schools hee speaketh of were in one Diocesse When Cocleus mentioneth thirtie thousand who at the Castle of Bechnigne eight miles from Tabor receiued the Communion vnder both kindes maugre the decree of the Councel of Constance will any man doubt but there were many thousands more who receiued the Sacrament in like manner at other places When Dâ— Hallyan reports that the armie of the Albingenses consisted of about the number of 100 thousand fighting men euerie mans discretion will adde that there must needs bee among them a greater number of all sorts old men women and children which were not able to beare Arms. And therefore Gulielmus Neubrigensis speaking of them saith that their number in France Sapin Italy and Germany was multiplied aboue the sand of the sea Rainerius the Popish Inquisitors own words amount to neere as much Haec secta generalior est omnibus alijs quae adhuc sunt vel fuerunt This sect is the most generall or farthest spred of all sects that euer were fere enim nulla est terra in qua haec secta non sit for there is almost no sect in all the world in which this sect hath not a part I conclude therfore this Assertion with the words of Synesius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 What need we Catalogues we are to fight with hands not with names The fourth Assertion Some Ages of the Church afford very few Authors of note whose Writings haue come to posterity Whosoeuer peruseth the Church story digested into Centuries or Annales or cast but a glance of his eye vpon the Catalogues of Writers made by Saint Ierom Suidas Photius Gennadius Abbas Tritemius Illyricus and Bale shall finde the Ages of the Church to resemble the Starres of the skie In some parts wee see many glorious and eminent Stars in others few of any remarkable greatnesse and in some none but blinkards and obscure ones In like manner in some Ages of the Church we may behold many worthy and glorious Lights like Starres of the first or second magnitude in others few of any note or bright luster and in some none but obscure and vnknowne Authors resembling the least and obscurest Starres in the skie After we haue passed the eightth Age of the Church wee fall into Cimaerian darknesse Bellarmine cannot speake of the ninth Age with patience Saeculo hoc nullum extitit indoctius aut infelicius quo qui Mathematica aut Philosophiae operam dabat vulgò Magus putabatur Then this Age there was none more vnlearned or vnhappie in which whosoeuer studied the Mathematicks or Philosophy hee was commonly accounted a Magician Sabellieus is at a stand in admiring at the palpable Egyptian darknesse of this Age. It is wonderfull to consider how great forgetfulnesse of all good Arts during this time did steale vpon mens mindes So that there was no light of knowledge found either in the Popes or Bishops or any other Princes which might further life Genebrard after a sort blesseth himselfe from this Age Infelix dicitur hoc saeculum exhaustumbâ—minibus doctrina ingenio claris sine etiam claris principibus pontificibus This is called an vnhappy Age empty of men famous in learning and wit yea without famous Princes or Popes Nay what the Physicians speak of slegme It is an humor ne ad maâ—la quidem bonus not good for any thing no not to nourish and prouoke to vice so it may bee said of this Age that it yeelded no eminent men Catholiques or Hereticks And therefore you shall finde in Praeâ—â—olus his Catalogue of Sectaries a great baulk in this Age. And Norice a Iesuiticall Quack saluer professeth That in this Age no new heresie beganne and consequently that he wanteth drugges for his Antidote But both Prateolus and his bold borrower Norice are much beholding to the Magdeburgenses who handsomly and trimly
excuse the matter saying Fâ—gisse Haereticos atque in praelatos ac monachos se abdidisse that the Hereticks which seemed to bee flowne away in this Age were not indeed vanished out of the world but lay close and hid themselues vnder Bishops Rochets and Monkes Coules where neither Prateolus nor Norice durst to search for them As this ninth Age so the tenth and some others after were very barren of learned Writers And therefore no maruaile if the haruest wee gather in these Ages of the professors of the truth and defenders thereof by writing bee very thinne for to leaue an Armie of bastard apocryphall Authors as the Papists do to maintain the Popes title or in so weighty a cause to rely on the ragged regiment of Authors mustred vp in Orthodoxographia bibliotheca veterum et Epistolae obscurorum virorum c. I hold it rather a dishonor and disaduantage then any credit or aduantage to the truth The fift Assertion Since Boniface the Third's time in the seauenth Age and much more since Hildebrand in the tenth such was the greatnesse of the Pope and transcendent power of the See of Rome that few durst or might write freely against the errors and vsurpations thereof And therefore it is not to be maruailed that we haue not many but it is rather to bee maruailed that wee haue any who haue displayed the abominations of the Whore of Babylon The Answer of a Poet in Augustus time is very famous who beeing demanded why he replied not vpon Augustus who had writ against him a bitter Satyr cleanly wiped his lips and said Periculosum est 〈◊〉 â—um scribere qui potest proscribere It is a dangerous thing to giue him a dash with a pen who is like to requite it with a slash of a sword to obiect against him in inke who can returne an answer in blood Pone Tigelinum teda lucebis in illa Qua stantes ardent fixo gutture fumant Set the Pope or Church of Rome out in her colours and shee will make you a light of the Church by burning you at a stake Platina and Occham long ago vpon iust cause and lamentable experience cast this bloodie aspersion on the Pope and his Adherents Occham frameth his inditement in these words Vt intentum 〈◊〉 horrendum ad finem possint perducere defendentes vâ—ritatem prosequuntur interimunt innoxium sangâ—â—nem fundunt That they may bring their horrible purpose to passe they prosecute such as maintaine the truth murther them and shead their innocent bloud Platinaâ— in these words 〈◊〉 mandataâ— Christi quise Vicarium eius dicit credâ—â—â— in verba Dei exurit Hee condemneth the commands of Christ who professeth and calleth himselfe his Vicar and burneth such as beleeue in the words of God Laurentius Valla for writing freely against the forged donation of Constantine lost his libertie and Countrie too Occham was so bold to strike at the Popes triple Crowne and to oppose some doctrines of the Church of Rome that hee was therefore excommunicated by the Pope and so grieuously persecuted that he was constrained to flie to the Emperor for succour to whom hee made this reasonable motion Tu defende me gladio ego defendam te calamo Defend thou mee by thy sword or power I will defend thee by my word or pen. Were the Waldenses and Albingenses murthered by thousands for Heresie No Rainerius cleareth them of that Omnia rectè de Deo credunt They beleeue all things rightly concerning God Why then Solummodo Romanam Ecclesians blasphemant Clerum They speake euill of the Church of Rome and the Clergie The opinions of the Albingenses saith Hallian did not so much stir vp the hate of the Pope and great Princes against them as the libertie of speech did wherewith they vsed to blame the vices and disolutenes of the said Princes and Clergie yea to tax the vices and actions of the Popes themselues This was the principall point that brought them into vniuersall hatred What was it so inflamed the Pope against the Hussites that hee proclaimed two Croisadoes and imploied great armies against them Their administring the Sacrament in both kindes maugre the sacrilegious decree of the Councell of Constance No. That he could and did dispence with all It was that article of the Hussites gathered out of their writings by Alanus Papaest â—estia de qua habetur in Apocalypsi 12. Datum est ei bellum facere cum sanctis The Pope is the beast whereof it is said in the 12. of the Reuelation It is granted to him the beast to warre with the Saints Hincillae lachrymae Nay rather Hinc ille crâ—or This kindled such a fire against the deare seruants of Christ that nothing could or did quench it but their bloud shed in great abundance For some hundreds of yeeres the chiefe Records and Monuments of the Westerne Church haue been in the hands of our Romish aduersaries who haue partly burned them partly corrupted them and partly kept them from vs. And herein they deale with vs as Theramenes his Colleagues dealt with him who hauing a purpose to question him for his life first strooke his name out of the Catalogue of the gouernours of the Citty and then articled against him And when he pleaded the priuiledge of all those whose names were written in the Catalogue they barred him from this defence saying That he could not plead that priuiledge because his name was not in the Catalogue In like manner our aduersaries take away from vs or make away from vs our records and then they non-sute vs for want of euidence Gregorie the great wrote manie things preiudiciall to the Popes pretensions and vsurpations and therefore Sabinianus his successor burnt diuers of his bookes as Platina intimates and Sixtus Senensâ—s expresly affirmeth That his most wicked emulators did burne the greater part of Gregories works presently after his death Auentine brandeth Pope Hildebrand with the marke of a corrupter of Chronicles and a razer out of them the things that were done Cocleus writeth of Hus Dum duceretur ad locum poenae videns in coemiterio libros suos comburi subrisit proper eam stultitiam While hee was led to the place of execution seeing in the Church-yard his bookes to bee burned hee smiled at that follie And his smiling may seeme propheticall for notwithstanding all the meanes that they could possibly vse to root him and his writings out of the memory of men yet both through Gods mercy are preserued and some few works also of Wicklef But the great bulk of them not much inferior to the quantity of Saint Austens works could not escape the fire beeing so narrowly searched after by the command of diuers Popes yea and Kings too If we might haue accesse to the Popes Library we doubt not but that wee should finde many more bookes written both in Latine and Greek against the Pope
This Cope acknowledgeth in his Dialogues As for corrupting antient Authors and circumcising later I referre all that desire to be satisfied in this point to T. I. his Treatise of the corruptions c. as also to the Indices expurgatorij Quiroga and Sanctouall The flourishing Fencer Campian in his first reason termeth Protestants difficiles Aristarchâ—s 〈◊〉 arrepta virgula censoria si quae ad stomachum 〈◊〉 faciunt obliterant But doe not Papists more truly deserue to bee censured censorious Aristarchi For as Aristarchus vsed to raze out the verses of Homer which hee liked not so hee that hath but halfe an eie may see that the Romanists in their Indices expurgatorij blot out of all sorts of Authors whatsoeuer liketh them noâ— or any way makes against them But wee hope wee shall shortly haue a Vindex for their Index And therefore leauing the further prosecution of this point I will now set downe my last Assertion and generall conclusion Notwithstanding all the difficulties aboue-mentioned yet God hath not left his truth though too much opposed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bee without witness in all Ages as may appeare by the learned labors of diuers Protestants aboue mentioned out of whose large fields as also mine owne particular obseruations I haue gleaned a brief Catalogue which may suffice to poynt out a Protestant successiue Church from Age to Age. The beginning of the Catalogue For witnesses to the truth of the Doctrine wee now professe and maintaine in the Church of England I alledge IN the first Age from Christs birth to 100 yeeeres CHRIST IESVS The twelue Apostles Saint Iohn Baptist. Saint Mark Saint Luke Saint Paul with his schollers Titus Timothy and the Churches planted or watered by them Romanes Corinthians c. Clemens about the yeere 90. Ignatius about the yeere 100. with the Churches to whom he wrote The Tralians Magnesians Tarsians Philadelphians c. In the second Age from 100. to 200. Polycarpus 140. Iustin Martyr 150. Methodius 155. Dionysius Corinthiacus 158. Hegesippus 160. Melito Sardensis 170. Polycrates cum Synodo Asiaâ—â—ca 180 Saint Irenaeus 190. Clemens Alexandrinus 200. These Professors of the truth 〈◊〉 denying others I alledge for the two 〈◊〉 centuries further we proceeded not in 〈◊〉 Conference and therefore heere I 〈◊〉 a stop for a time and withall a challenâ—â— to M. Fisher to set downe the names 〈◊〉 his supposed Papists for these two 〈◊〉 Ages together with such poynts of 〈◊〉 Romish Religion as he will prooue 〈◊〉 they maintained which after hee haâ—â— done I will make good my witnesses anâ— disprooue his and then proceed to 〈◊〉 succeeding Ages euen vnto Luther if 〈◊〉 permit Hic rhodus hic saltus Hic modus haec nostro signabitur area currâ— A defence of Doctor FEATLY his proceedings in the Conference together with a refutation of Master FISHERS Answer vnder the name of A. C. to a Treatise intituled The Fisher caught in his owne Net AS Velleius Paterculus obserues that In the battell at Philippi in which Brutus should haue taken Anthony to task and Cassius Augustus it fell out cleane contrary so that Brutus met with Augustus and Anthony marched against Cassius So it came to passe in this present combate D. White prepared and prouided to encounter M. Fisher his former Antagonist and D. Featly was intreated as in Assistant to deale in a second place with M. Sweet if occasion were offered Yet vpon a cunning trick of the Iesuite discouered immediately before the Conference it was then on the place of the meeting resolued otherwise by some that were principally interessed in the businesse that D. Featly should beginne with M. Fisher and oppose him in the Iesuites question touching the visibility of the Protestants Church and D. White as there should bee cause should take off M. Sweet if he interposed as also answer in the contrary question propounded to the Iesuites touching the Visibility of the Romish Church in all Ages Thus D. Featly who intended to be but an Assistant contrary to his expectation was made the principall Opponent in this Disputation Wherin that hee might the better manage the truthes quarrell and satisfie his Auditory hee set before his eies certaine rules partly taken out of Scripture partly out of the antient Fathers to direct his proceedings by them The first rule is Saint Paul's Let nothing bee done through strife or vaine-glory God is not in the fire of contention nor in the whirle-winde of passion but in the still voice of them who in meeknesse of spirit seeke the truth out of loue of truth it selfe not of desire of victory Nolunt Scripturâ— ae docere nisi eos qui doceri quaerunt The Scriptures will not instruct those who seek not to bee instructed by them in this manner Democritus fitly compared truth to a iewell in the bottome of a Well if the water bee cleere we may easily discerne it but if troubled it is impossible to see the bottome of the Well much lesse discerne the most precious Iewel of truth lying in it For this cause D. Featly in the beginning of the disputation as is confessed by A. C. earnestly besought M. Fisher to deale sincerely as in the sight of God setting aside all passion and by-respects and when M. Sweet propounded that condition that all bitter speeches should be auoided D. Featly with the rest most willingly accepted of it and commended M. Sweet for proposing of it The second rule is Nazianzens 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is the best order in all speech and actions to begin and end with God According to which prescription D. Featly beganne with a short Prayer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ended partly with a doxologie adding to his instance in Christ our Lord and Sauiour blessed for euer at whose Name all knees must bow both in heauen and earth and vnder the earth partly by an holy adjuration M. Fisher I charge you as you will answer before Christ at the day of Iudgement The third rule is Epiphanius his who obserueth in a Disputation against the Photinians quòd adhibiti sunt qui vtrinque exciperent ea quae dicebantur quae postea ab vtraque parte obsignabantur there were appointed Notaries who did take that which was said on both sides and their notes afterward were signed by both parties According to which obseruation M. Ailsbury was chosen and accepted of as Notary on both sides and D. Featly did set his hand to each Syllogisme as likewise did M. Fisher to his Answers and this schedule containing the substance of the arguments and Answers in the end of the Conference was sealed with three seales the Earle of Warwicks Master Boultons and Master Bugges The fourth rule is Tâ—rtâ—llians first to 〈◊〉 the ground and set vp as it were the goales by determining the state of the question Summam quaestionis saith he certis line is determinemus aduersus Marcionem L. 17. His
to bee justified by Antiquity that it was death to him to name them And therefore when hee comes to that part of the Conference he passeth away in an Homericall Cloud saying Heer D. Featly made an insolent Challenge But A. C. durst not set down so much as the words of the Challenge in particular lest his Catholique Disciples should be scandalized at it Secondly the Inuisibility of the Romish Church for many hundreds of yeeres after Christ may be inferred from the confessions of our learned Aduersaries Alfonsus confesseth for Indulgences Roffensis for Purgatory and Gregory de Valentia for Communion vnder one kinde that they were no part of the beleefe or practice of the ancient Church Verily I beleeue Alfonsus à Castro and Roffensis needed a pardon for so expresly professing the nouelty of Pardons and Indulgences Alfonsus his words are Multa sunt Posterioribus nota quae Vetustissimi Scriptores prorsus ignorârunt De Transubst antiatione rara in Antiquis mentio de Purgatorio ferè nulla Quid ergo miâ—um si ad hâ—nc modum contigerit de Indulgentijs vt apud Priscos nulla sit mentiâ— There are many things knowne to later Writers which the Ancients were altogether ignorant of There is seldome any mention of Transubstantiation among the Ancients almost none of Purgatory What maruell then if it so fall out with Indulgences that there should be no mention of them by the Ancients Roffensis strikes in Vnisons with him Cùm Purgatorium tam serò cognitum 〈◊〉 receptum vniuersae Ecclesiae fueriâ— quis iam de Iâ—â—â—lgentijs mirari possit Sith Purgatory hath been so lately knowne and receiued of the whole Church who can now wonder concerning Indulgences As for communion vnder one kind and depriuing the Laity of the Cup which Gelasius calleth Grande sacrilegium a great sacrilege that it was an abuse lately crept into the church we need no more pregnant testimony than Gregory de Valentia voluntarily affordeth vs 〈◊〉 negamus quâ—m vtraque species olim administrâ—â—â— sit vt apparet ex Paulo 1. Cor. 10. Cypriano Athanasio Hâ—eronymo c. We deny not that the Communion in ancient times was administred vnder both kindes as appeares out of Saint Paul Cyprian Athanasius Hierom c. and in his tenth Chapter Et quidem quando primùm vigere câ—pis consuetudo communicandi sub alterâ tantùm specie in aliquibus Ecclesiis minimè constat coepit autem 〈◊〉 câ—nsuetudo in Ecclesiâ Latinâ esse generalis non 〈◊〉 ante temporâ— Concilij Constantiensis And truely it appeares not when this custome of communicating vnder one kinde onely began in some Churches but it began not to be a generall custome in the Latine Church much before the Councell of Constance I will heere instance in one Particular more and That is the publique Seruice in an vnknown tongue which was brought into the Church by Pope Vitalian who as Wolphius sheweth brought-in the Latine Seruice and obtruded it to the whole Church precisely in the yeer 666 which is the number of the Name of the Beast in the Apocalypse I intreat the Reader to take speciall notice of it that Irenaeus findeth the numerall Letters 666 in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Wolphius prooueth out of Popish Writers that this very yeer 666 the Latine Bishop Vitalianus commanded Latine Seruice in the whole Christian world And this may serue for the confirmation and illustration of the former sort of Arguments vsed by D. Featly in the Conference For the later which were Dicticall or demonstratiue partly drawne à priori from the cause and propounded in Syllogisticall Forme partly à posteriori from the effect and propounded in an Induction they march on in their owne strength and need no conuoy Some weak resistance hath been made by some stray Troops who are met withall in the precedent Remonstrance But now after fiue Moneths M. Fisher leuying all his forces biddeth them battell and proclaimeth it by his Herauld A. C. A Prooem to the Answer to the Conference WEE read a pleasant Story in 〈◊〉 of a fellow that beeing somewhat heauie took a brasse pot which hee had in his hand and put it vnder his head for a pillow and so laid him downe to sleepe but finding That his pillow some-what vneasie with all the wit he had he rose vp and filled it full of feathers and straw within and thereby thought he had made it much softer and took a nap vpon it If I should not apply this Story the intelligent Reader soon would You M. Fisher are the man who finding your former Answers vpon which you relyed in the Conference to bee very hard vncouth and not to be endured now in this your defense of them you as it were fill the brasse pot within with feathers and straw that is stuffe out and bumbaste your former Answers with verball distinctions impertinencies tautologies cauils and vntruthes for all the feathers and straw the pot is brasse still as hard as euer it was and for all your new qualifications and falsifications your former Answers are as harsh and vnsufferable as euer before so that hee needeth a brow of brasse that will rest or rely vpon them For example 1. About the beginning of the Conference you were driuen to these Soloecismes in Grammar to affirm that Two vtrums imply not two quaeres that whether the Church c. and whether the names c. make but one whether that the Copulatiue and coupleth nothing that these words It is not in the singular are to bee referred to that part of the question Whether names c. in the plurall To these absurd paradoxes in Grammar against all common sense you answer To cut off all needlesse wrangling about the Aduerb vtrum whether and the Copulatiâ—e et and as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing rather then graue Diuines who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar c. Belike graue Diuines are priuiledged to bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnlettered vnchristcrost to vtter non-sense to speake false English at their pleasure as the Pope did false Latine when he said Fiatur for fiat in contemptum omnium Grammaticorum But as the Romane Grammarian told the Emperour who vsed an vncouth word Ciuitatem ab Imperatore hominibus dâ—ri posse verbis non posse that it was in the power of the Emperour to make men free of the City of Rome but not words so let mee tell you that the Pope may dispense with you for breaking the rules of your order in so much intermeddling as you doe in ciuil affaires but hee cannot dispense with you for breaking of Grammar Rules Priscian may lay his action against you in all 〈◊〉 there lies no prohibition in a case of this nature 2. You were driuen to these Soloecisâ—es in Logick First In a true Syllogisme to answer to the conclusion For which you would haue beene â—issed out of the Schooles in our Vniuersities Secondly
distinguish vpon a proposition and apply the distinction to no tearm To the former you answer Thâ— idle exception M. Fisher attending to the 〈◊〉 did not regard but might haue told him that it is not vnusuall after a distinction made both to Maior and Minor to apply the like to the conclusion It is true he might haue said so as you doe now but is that sufficient without farther proofe Name the place where it is vsuall I am sure it is alwaies improper and needlesse for the conclusion in disputation is alwaies a proposition giuen by the answerer to the opponent to inferre conclude it in his argument and therefore it is alwaies supposed to bee agreed vpon for the meaning of it before it comes to be concluded in a Syllogisme The Answerer may alwaies distinguish of premises because they are new propositions not before debated vpon but the conclusion is either the originall Thesis it selfe propounded by the answerer which if it be ambiguous he ought to haue explicated it in setting downe the staâ—e of the Question or it is one of the premises in the Opponents Syllogisme in which if there lay any ambiguity the Respondent ought to haue distinguished vpon it before when it was the Maior or Minor proposition and not when being distinguished or denied before by the Respondent it is now by the Opponent in a true Syllogisme made the Conclusion To the second you answer That which D. Featly thinketh to bee a straine of new Logick to distinguish vpon a proposition without applying the distinction to any particular tearm is not so strange as he maketh it As for example When one saith An Aethiopian is white neither the tearm Aethiopian alone nor the tearme white alone in it selfe needeth distinction because it is not equiuocall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 What a strange speech is this Is not the tearme albus white equiuocall Doe not almost all later Logicians giue it as a most knowne instance of an equiuocall tearme Which may bee taken two waies either absolutely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in whole as when wee say Nireus is albus Nireus is a white man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 secundum quid in some respect or part as when wee say Ethiops est albus a black Moore is white to weet in his teeth It is true that as Poyson infecteth the whole bloud yet the substance of it lies but in one principall part so an equiuocation in any part of a proposition in some sort affecteth the whole yet this equiuocation lieth alwaies in one tearme to weet in the subiectum or praedicatum if the proposition bee properly equiuocall and in the copula and construction if it bee properly amphibologicall as Aâ—o te Aeacida Romanos vincere posse te Romanâ—s or Romanos te But note M. Fisher if you knew it not that one of the three termini in a Syllogisme may containe many words neither can you name any ambiguous Proposition in which it may not bee shewed in which Logick tearme the ambiguity lyeth 3. You were driuen in the Conference to this Soloecisme in Philosophy to affirme That Media may be said directa yet not to tend ad directum finem Hereto he answers If M. Fisher did say these words his meaning may bee gathered out of his former explication in which he shewed how the direct end of the Disputation was not to treat of particular controuersies but to finde out first by other meanes the true visible Church whose professors names may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors those Media therefore Directa as D. Featly termed them might in some sort be so tearmed as beeing directed by D. Featly to his owne end of transferring the question to particular Conferences but not ad directum finem that is not ordained to the direct end of the Disputation viz. to sheâ— a visible Church of Protestants in all Ages whose names may be shewed out of good Authors Of the end of the Dispute how my arguments tended directly to that end enough hath been said before in the Remonstrance But admitting that they tended not to the direct end M Fisher should haue said Your Media were not Directa because they tended not ad directum finem but he saith Your Media were Directa but not tending ad direct â—â—finem thereby flatly contradicting himselfe in the same proposition for Media or meanes are said in relation to an end therefore if they are direct they must needs tend to the direct end To say Media are Directa and not tending ad directum finem to the direct end is all one as if he should say This shoo indeed is fit but not for the foot This is the streight way but not to the place you would goe to The aime is right but not to the marke The saddle serueth fit but not to the beasts back The knife is keen and sharp but not to cut For as a shoo is said to be fit onely in respect of the foote and the way straight in respect of a mans intended iourney and the â—ime right in respect of the marke and the saddle to serue fit in respect of the beasts back for which it is made the knife keen in respect of cutting so are Media said to be Directa onely 〈…〉 And therefore I had iust cause then to vse the English Prouerbe This is a Bull and now the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. You were driuen to the worst soloecisme of all in Diuinity to refuse to answer to Christ and his Apostles yea though you were solemnely adiured thereunto To this to 〈◊〉 impudent denials apparant contradiction obserued by the witnesses in the Attestation you answer that You would not permit me to diuert either to dispute about Christ or his Apostles or any other point till Names were giuen in all ages for this had been say you to follow two Hares at once and so to catch neither A light Answer Master Fisher to so weightie a Charge Christ and his Apostles should not haue been so slightned But you say To instance in Christ and his Apostles in the first Age was To follow two Hares Do you remember which was the Hare we were to hunt Was it not the Visibility of the Church in all Ages before Luther And could a man possibly take a more direct and orderly way then to begin with the first Age and the first of the first Age If this were not the way to catch the Hare your owne Hunts-men that prating 〈◊〉 and his honest transcriber S. N. were at a great fault for they begin their Catalogue where I do Will you not bee angry Master Fisher if I tell you the truth I hunted not two Hares at once but when you were deuising and printing your Answer in the Cellar or Cellâ—eer the Wind-mill your head swommâ— and your brains ran round and you knew not well your selfe what you did
as will appeare to any who will compare my Reply with your Answer which I here transcribe verbatiâ— â—hongh not alwaies following you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because you often double and more often start aside requiring of you the like And I begin with your Title An Answer to a Pamphlet intituled The Fisher catched in his owne net In which by the way is shewed that The Protestant Church was not so visible in all Ages as the true Church ought to bee and consequently is not the true Church of which men may learne infallible faith necessarie to saluation by A. C. DIgnuÌ„ patellâ operculuÌ„ such a cup such a Couer such ware such inscriptioÌ„ on the outside of the box such as the Inne is such is the signe such as the Clocke is such is the Index or Finger of the Diall A crackt Cup and a false Couer naughtie ware and as bad an inscription a cheating Inne and a lewd Signe an vncertain Clock a lying Index a book full of falshood fraud neuer a true word in the title for neither is it an answer to the Phamphlet so intituled but a Cauill at some passages therein neither in this Answer as hee tearmeth it is shewed that The Protestant Church is not the true visible Church but rather the contrarie as shall appeare by discussing it neither was it penned by A. C. but by Master Fisher who before was caught in his owne net and now dâ—nceth in a net vnder the name of A. C. thinking that no man seeth him yet your Net is not so close but that I plainly see you thorow it and I gesse at the reason why you shrowd your selfe vnder the Characters of A. C. There are many passages in this Answer in which Master Fishers ingenuity and sincerity and modestie are set vpon the Last These commendations of Master Fisher would haue lost all their grace in his own mouth as a Turkeys doth the luster on the finger of a dead man but it becomes A. C. well enough to blazon the Armes of Master Fisher. Moreouer by thus borrowing the letters of your friends name you play fast and loose If any man like your Answer then it is yours but if hee dislike it then it is A. C as Tully being girded at by Laterensis for a common Iester answereth Quod quisque dicit id â—e dixisse dicunt ego autem si quid est quod mihi 〈◊〉 esse videatur et homine ingenuâ— dignum atquâ— doctâ— non aspernor stomachor verò cùm aâ—â—rum non me digna in me conseruntur Other mens jests are fathered vpon mee and if they bee wittie jests and haue salt in them I am content to father them but if dry and vnsauorie I will not owne them In like manner in your booke Si quid tamen aptius exit QuanquaÌ„ haec rara auis est siquid tâ—men aptius exit If there be any thing sharply spoken to good purpose M. Fisher will challenge that to himself but if any thing bee spoken impertinently and flatly as indeed the greater part of your Musick goes vpon flats then A. C. must beare it out Howsoeuer in my judgement M. Fisher you had better haue taken off your mask and dealt openâ—y for by this concealing your true name you giue your selfe a blow and your cause a wound Were not you a Nominall in the Conference Did not you stand wholly in a manner vpon Names and will not you now set your owne name to your owne Work A man would think that you who are stored with so many Names might haue bestowed at least one of your old cast Names at full length on your Title-page and not put your Reader to spell A. C. who I can assure you spells them vnhappily One spelleth thus An Answer written by A. C. that is A Counterfeit another A. C. A Cauiller a third An Answer written by A. C. that is by A Cox- c quod dicere nolo but I spare you and leaue your Title and come to your Preface Master FISHER'S Preface GEntle Reader although I doubt not but all that bee wise and iudicious especially if they duely consider the occasion state of the question lately treated in a Conference betwixt Doctor White and Doctor Featly Ministers and Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites will easily discerne euen by that false relation which is set out in print by a Protestant that the Protestants cause hath not gained any thing Doctor FEATLY'S Answer AS our Blessed Sauiour spake to the High-priests seruant saying If I haue done euill beare witnesse of the euill if well why smitest thou me In like manner the Protestant Relator may checke you If hee haue done you any wrong in the relation or set downe any thing vntruely conuince him of it if not why doe you smite him with your tongue and pen It is your owne Maxime that No man will lie for the aduantage of his Aduersarie or for his owne disaduantage but you here say that The Protestant cause hath gained nothing by the relation Therefore it should seeme by your owne argument to bee a sincere and not malicious relation Howsoeuer if the Protestant cause hath gained nothing by it your cause hath lost nothing by it and if so why do you so maligne and persecute euen vnto banishment an innocent Relation Why do you forbid your Romish Catholiques to reade it Why apply you so many salues both in writing and in print if there be no sore What the Protestant cause gained by the Conference it selfe or the relation thereof malo in aliorum opinione relinquere quà m in oratione mea ponere it is fitter for me to heare then speak I am sure Doctor White and my selfe haue gained much ease by it for before the Conference wee could neuer bee quiet for your challenges but since wee haue neuer been troubled with you It seemes you had enough of that short Encounter But you will say No blowe was struck home no arrow was drawne vp to the head no argument prosecuted to the full at that Meeting How then could the Protestant Cause gaine any thing by it By your miserable euasions and manifest flight and tergiuersation you who were ante pugnam auidus tumidus were in pugnâ pauidus timidus like Captaine Iohn mentioned by Sinesius who in the maine fight fled amaine digging his horse-sides letting loose the Reanes laying on amaine with a switch c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. It will be said If you fled in such manner why did not I follow after you Because in your flight you brake the bridge by refusing to answer Christ and his Apostles Scripturis non loquentibus quis loquetur Where Christ and his Apostles cannot be heard the holy Father was resolued neuer to speake I account it no foile to my cause to bee non-futed in that Court where Christ and his Apostles are excepted against Where the Charters of our saluation
hold the ancient Primitiue faith wee will acknowledge that we haue no right vnto them nor will we desire to be admitted to dispute out of them Therefore vntill M. Fisher or some other shall prooue by some other marks than bare alleaging of the Popes names locally succeeding one another in the Sea of Rome that they are the heires of the Apostles we haue a most iust cause to try the title of the true Church with them and bring the last Will and Testament of our Lord and Master for our prime Euidence and surest Deed to make good our plea. Of the fift Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or vain repetitions For the exemplification of this rare point of eloquence bequeathed to you as a Legacy in euery line and sentence of Battus his Will and Testament I need not alleage as I haue done before particular leaues and pages for you might far better haue intituled your whole book A Battologie than an Apologie or An 〈◊〉 pamphlet intituled The Fisher catched in his own Net A judicious friend of mine to whom I sent your Book at the first comming out in Print and demanded of him his iudgement of it returned it back again in the words of the Poet I lle referre aliter saepe solebatidem Another said M. Fisher's legible Tautologies in this printed Defense were as irksome and tedious as his audible dilatory Answers and Teâ—giuersations in the Conference A third said He was sure that M. Fisher aduised with the Poet Martial who professeth that rather than his Book should perish by reason of the finall 〈◊〉 of it hee would fill vp as many pages as 〈◊〉 cobbles verses with that Catholique Pateh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo ne pereat breâ—ibus mihi charta liâ—ellis Dicatur potiùs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To repeat particularly your vain repetitions would bee to commit the fault I reprehend in you euen in the reprehension thereof and I might feare to heare an allusion to that of Platâ— against Diogenes Fastum caleas sed 〈…〉 so I might be thought to cry down a Cuckoo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore passing them in 〈◊〉 from the contents of your Book I hasten to 〈◊〉 Text. Touching the occasion and issue of the Conference Protestant Relation EDVVARD BVGS Esquire about the age of 70. yeers being lately sick was sollicited by some Papists then about him to forsake the protestant faith telling him There was no hope of saluation without the Church There was no Catholike Church but theirs Master FIHSER's Answer How farre this parcell of the relation is true or false I will not stand to discusse as not yet knowing how or by whom the afore-said Gentle-man came first to doubt of his Church and consequently of his religion c. Doctor FEATLYE's Reply Although I might take occasion by the counter-relation of the occasion of this conference to reueale diuers mysteries of the reserued Art of Iesuitical frauds falsehoods for as they say in a Lamprey so in this whole treatise froÌ„ the beginning to the ending there is a string of poyson throughout yet because the occasioÌ„ of the conference but little concernes the cause less me in sparing the Iesuites blame and penance I will spare mine owne paines and the Readers 〈◊〉 who I perswade my selfe will not much regard how wee came into the field but how wee acquitted our selues vpon the place for the papers sent to the old Gentle-man which impudently thrust themselues vpon vs at euerie turne in the occasion Page 7. and 〈…〉 Conference and afterwards in the 〈◊〉 Page 48. and 49. and 60. Although they 〈◊〉 been met withall by Master Rogers Master Walker and diuers other and stabbed thorow and thorow againe with their 〈…〉 shall haue ouer and aboue my 〈…〉 Asteriskes when my tractate of the visibilitiâ—â—â— the Church which hath laine by mee in darknes for the space of a yeere shall vpon some good occasion become visible and see the light As for the relation of matter of fact so farre as concerneth the occasion of this Conference where the Protestants Relation and the Iesuites walke fairely together there needs no conteâ—ting Answer where they clash or 〈◊〉 one another I can answer no otherwise theÌ„ the Oâ—ator doth in the like kinde Accusatar dicit Marcus Sâ—â—â—rus negat Vtri â—redemus A Iesuit disparageth som passages in the Relation a worthie Knight of knowne integrity who procured the meeting for the satisfaction of his kinsman Master 〈◊〉 auoweth them as followeth 〈…〉 The answer of S. Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite COncerning the occasion of the Conference I aâ—ow that according to his Maiesties command I did set downe the truth of the occasion briefely and faithfully to my best remembrance as is alreadie extant in print And whereas fol. 4. Master Fisher saith hee set downe two questions with my consent and the old Gentlemans the first whereof being allowed by both of vs Master Fisher wrote It is granted I affirme that in processe of discourse I then allowed that the Church is more or lesse visible at all times but that I did grant a necessity of such visibilitie as hee intendeth or that I obserued what M. Fishers marginall note was I vtterly denie And wheras page 12. Master Fisher complaineth of the inequalitie of the Auditorie compared with the few which Master Fisher brought To this I say that vpon my credit I did not acquaint four persons with the meeting more then those that I inuited to dinner Howsoeuer I doubt not but that hee is rather glad he had no more Auditours of his owne side and by this time is more asham'd of his cause then of the paucitie of his parties thâ—re present And yet I will let him know for the small acquaintance I haue among the Papists I was able to number full twentie of that side present And verily had I purposedly drawn thither so much company the Iesuites ought me thanks for it as therein deseruing well of the Catholique cause by bringing a troup of spectators to view the foyle of our own side in a question reputed by the Iesuites so disaduantageous to vs wherin forsooth the Protestants as is triumphed page 33. are so farre from being able to produce three professors in euerie age tâ—at they are not able to name one to say nothing of Christ and his Apostles for they were not worthy to bee answered not one Author no not one Actor that dares oppose two such learned Iesuites in such a triall Again page 16. whereas it is said there was an vnseasonable motion made by Sir Humfrey Linde to Master Sweet I answer that I was induced for certaine reasons then to mooue Master Sweet to dispute vpon Transubstantiation First the standers by did well perceyue that the old man Master Fisher was much woorried and the Auditory much wearied with his saying nothing and writing
originall written Relation there was no such figure infarced The Printers tripping is not to be taken for a stumble of the Relators nay it is rather maruelled that he tripped no more beeing so hastie to 〈◊〉 without his errâ—nd And to thrust out a Relation without direction authority of the like stamp is that error of the Printer Page 20. line 6. where the originall copie went thus 〈◊〉 againe those of M. Fisher 's side calling for 〈◊〉 Where are your names D. White said This is nothing but apparant tergiuersation c. The shallow Printer not vnderstanding this passage inuerted the sentence thus D. White said Where are your names and thereby wholly peruerted the sence D. White called not for names but 〈◊〉 the Popish Auditors for vnseasonably and vnciuilly calling for names when M. Fisher was at a stand The third straw you stumble at is That the Protestant Relator seemeth to say that the Priests and Iesuites cast out papers c. You say this is not true and yet you your selfe here mention three such papers scattered by you and I haue receiued a fourth written by your man and Sir Hamfrey Lynde hath seene a fift and M. Walker M. Rogers a sixt and seuenth Whereunto also they haue returned Answers the one in print the other in written hand Let the Reader then iudge whether the Protestant Relator any way ouerlashed in charging you with the dis-spreading of such papers The Protestant Relation Paragraph the second touching the state of the Question to bee disputed of At the beginning of this Meeting when the Disputants were set D. Featly drew out the paper in which the Question aboue-rehearsed was written with the words in the Margent viz. I will answer that it was not and demanded of M. Fisher whether this were his owne hand which Doctor Featlie's Reply You talke of prescribing methods and proportions to be obserued on both sides as if wee fought vnder your banner or were to receiue the law from you Who made you dictator and M. Sweet your Magister equitum that you take vpon you to enact Martiall Law for sacred 〈◊〉 in the truthes quarrell Verily if you prescribe no better lawes in this kind then those that are set downe in the Conference and auowed in your defence viz. In a good Syllogisme to answer to the conclusion To distinguish on a proposition and apply it to no learn To prooue an effect alwaies by an effect because aâ— effect is posterius c. you are fitter to bee a Law-giuer among the Alogi then the Logicians inter Alogos then Logicos The Protestant Relation Paragraph the third touching the conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants M. Sweet Before you proceed to dispute desire these conditions may be assented 〈◊〉 on both sides First that All bitter speeches bee forborn Secondly that None speak but Disputants Master FISHER About this time M. Sweet propounded these conditions to be obserued First That all bitter speeches should be for borne Secondly That nothing should be spoken or heard â—ut to the purpose Which second he did propound to preuent impertinent digressions Doctor FEATLY This second condition was not propounded by M. Sweet at the Conference as is prooued in the Attestation page 40. but is since deuised by M. Fisher to set a faire Glosse and colour on his and M. Sweet's miserable shifts and euasions responsum nullum dant praeter vnicum quod semper dant nihil ad propositum whatsoeuer they are not able to answer to that is with them nothing to the purpose To the instance in fifteene nouelties of the Romish faith M. Sweet answered as you report page 16. that Those things were then impertinent and nothing to the purpose To Sir Lynde's motion to M. Sweet to dispute of Transubstantiation out of Saint Austen M. Sweet answered That is not now to the Question To my proofe a priori of the Visibility of the Protestant Church M. Sweet answereth page 19. That is not to the Question you ought to prooue the truth of your Church à posteriori That is to the Question To giue some relish and taste to these vnsauory Answers of M. Sweet's You faine a Prouiso of his which indeede is a Procudo of your owne That M. Sweet answered this according to law for there was a Law forsooth made That nothing should be spoken or heard but to the purpose How those things aboue-al-leadged were to the purpose and touched the very Apple of the eye of the Question shall bee shewed in due place In the meane time let the Reader note that M. Fisher taketh more liberty then the fained supposititious decree of Geneuâ— giueth him for that alloweth a man onely to lie for Gods honour but heere M. Fisher coyneth a lie onely for M. Sweet's credit The Protestant Relation Paragraph the fourth touching the Inuisibility of the Romish Church for more than 500 yeeres after Christ. Before I propound my Argument I craue leaue in few words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse wherewith you draw and delude many of the Ignorant and Vnlearned You beare them in hand that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant before Luther and that all the world beleeued as you doo That your Church hath not been onely visible in all Ages and all times but eminently conspicuous and illustrious Which is such a notorious vntruth that I heer offer before all this Company to yeeld you the better and acknowledge my selfe ouercomne if you can produce out of good Authors I will not say any Empire or Kingdome but any City Parish or Hamlet within fiue hundred yeers next after Christ in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to be named maintaining and defending either your Trent-Creed in generall or these points of Popery in speciall That there is a Treasury of Saints merits and superaboundant satisfactions at the Pope's disposing That the Laity are not commanded by Christ's Institution to receiue the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in both kinds c. then to answer them yet certainly it is now most needfull If you mean not to answer them at least repeat them This you dare not doo for feare your disciples should take offence You dare not pull away the curtain lest your nakednes should be seen You are wise in your owne generation you knowe how to keep those in the dungeon whom you hould in captiuity They must not see a glimpse of light lest they should look after more You forbid your Captiues to reade our Relations and in your owne you slubber-ouer whatsoeuer toucheth you neer You well knew M. Fisher that Antiquity neuer knew your drossie treasure of superaboundant satisfactions nor your dry suppers without the Lords Cup nor your solitary Communions without Communicants nor your vnintelligible praiers nor your ignorant deâ—otion nor your irregular canonizing of Traitors nor your painted flames oâ— Purgatory nor your cony-catching Indulgences nor any of the like new trash And
therefore you doo well and wisely heer not to lay these blocks for your blinde children to stumble at which neither you nor all the Iesuits in Christendome are able to remoue The Protestant Relation Paragraph the fift concerning the parts of the Question D. Featly There are two Quaeres in your Question First Whether the Protestant Church were in all Ages visible and secondly Whether the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed c. M. Fisher. There are not two Quaeres or parts in the Question it is but one Question D. White Where there are two Propositions with two distinct Vtrums there are two Questions c. M. Fisher. Conclude any thing syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly And is a Coniunction copulatiue and must adde somewhat to That that goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men Master FISHER'S Answer My Question is meant to be but one entire Question And so to cut off all needlesse wrangling made by D. White and D. Featly about the Aduerb Vtrùm whether and the Copulatiue et and as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing rather than graue Diuines who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar especially in this case where the sense of the speaker is plaine and may well stand with Grammar Master Fisher said The question being mine it pertaineth to mee to tell the meaning and my meaning was onely to make is one question viz. Whether the Protestant Church were so visible as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors Wherefore if you will dispute you must dispute in my sense and must conclude the affirmatiue viz. The Protestant Church was so visible as the Names of the professors in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors Doctor FEATLY'S Reply First the parts of your question are distinguished really for a Protestant Church may haue beene visible in many Ages and yet not the names of visible Protestants liuing in those Ages now to bee produced as your selfe confesseth in effect page 33. line 23. Wee doe not require that all visible mens names should bee vpon record nor all records produced Secondly they are distinguished formally in words whether the protestant Church c. And whether the Names c. Thirdly they are distinguished by points for in the middle of your question before the second part of it you your selfe put a colon thus Fourthly you distinguish them your selfe in your answer in the written copie which I haue for to the first part you answer in the margent It was not which answer was not nor can bee applied to the latter part Either the parts of your question are distinct in sense or out of question you propound them senslesly whether and whether two whethers meaning but one Admit the construction you giue of the first part viz. Whether a Protestant Church were visible in all Ages that is so visible as the Names of visible Protestants may bee shewed what construction then will you make of the latter clause whether the Names may be shewed Is not this iust like Battus his spell in the Latin Poet Subillis Montibus inquit erant et erant sub montibus illis Or the like of the French Car comâ— ' vn ' Aigle mountant an clair soleil Car c'estoite vn ' Aigle mountant an clair soleil It is as if I should propound such a question Whether Iesuites be so honest men that they will not equiuocate and whether they will not equiuocate Or whether the letters in a small print are so visible that they may bee read and whether they may bee read Or whether the parts of this question are so distinguished that they are not altogether confounded and whether they are not altogether confounded But you say I am bound to dispute in your sense What sense mean you The sense that is to be made of your words or the sense which you make by your mental reseruation It seemeth you are so vsed to your Iesuitical Cabala that you cannot in your disputing but smacke of it I am bound to dispute with you you say in your sense I grant you am I therfore to dispute with you in your non-sence But you say that it is for Grammar Scholars to argue about the Aduerb Vtrum and the copulatiue et and. Tell your great Clark Cardinall Bellarmine so who wier-drawes your Sacrifice of the Masse out of the Copulatiue et and And he was a Priest of the most high God c. and your Transubstantiation out of the Pronoune hoc Hoc est Corpus c. your Popes supremacie out of the Pronoune tibi Dico tibi Petre c. Doth not Saint Austen presse Grammaticall Arguments against Cresconius the Grammarian Nay doth not Saint Paul himselfe presse a Grammaticall argument Against the Iewes Non ex seminibus sed ex semine Not of seedes as of many but of thy seed as of one How many ancient and later Diuines whose bookes you are not worthy to carry after them haue substaÌ„tially proued the Trinity by a Grammatical Argument drawne froÌ„ the Plural Number Faciamus Let vs make man yea the Trinitie in vnity by an Argument founded vpon the construction of a Verbe Singular with a Nowne Plurall Elohim that is Dij creaâ—it It is no disparagement Master Fisher for the greatest Clarke to remember his Grammar But he who so farre forgets his Grammar as you doe deserueth to be turned back to the Grammar Schoole and to haue his Garmmar-Rules better imprinted into him with a Schoole-Masters Ferula or somewhat else Yea but Aquila non capit Muse aâ— you are a high flyer and therefore scorne to strike at a Flie Yet take heed of such Flies lest you bee choked with one of them as your Pope Adrian was Such dead Flies as you heere swallow are able to corrupt and spill a whole boxe of the sweetest Oyntment The Protestant Relation Paragraph the sixt touching the pretended necessitie of naming Protestants in all Ages Master Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this If there were visible men certainely they may be named name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all Ages D. Featly It seemes you are nominals rather then reals you stand so much vpon naming will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all Ages If neither you nor wee can name visible professors of our Religions in all Ages for ought I know the best way for vs is to be all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a Naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all Ages certainely they may bee named D. Featly That is a non sequitur for the reasons before named by me What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Pliny haue no names at all M. Boulton Yet they haue descriptions and
the Catholique Church of Christ to Africa and therein to the Sect of Donatus so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome and the Popes adherents We teach with Saint Austen Non Romanos sed omnes gentes Dominus semini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit That God promised with an oath to Abraham not the Romans but all Nations for his seed We beleeue that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are receiued and Christs Sacraments administred God calles some by ordinary meanes and consequently there is a Christian Church though neuer hearing of Rome or Papall Iurisdiction who are ordained to saluation Wee account all that professe the name of Christ Doctrine of the Gospell to be members of the visible Catholick Church yet with this difference some are sound members and parts others vnsound and these more or lesse Wee doubt not but Christ hath his flock vnder the Turk and Tartarian and Mogol in Asia Africa Europe yea Italy and Rome it selfe euen in the denne of Antichrist And therefore we are the true Catholicks who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam a Church truly Catholicke and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times who damne all sorts of Christians saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads What then speake you of three Protestants to be named in euery Age Although our Sauiours words are most true Where there are two or three gathered in my name there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words are most true Vbi tres sunt Ecclesia est licèt Laici sint Where there are three there is the Church yea though those three bee Lay-men and In 〈…〉 Ecclesia est the Church is in one or two men yea Alensis and diuers among you remembred by Tostatus affirme that from the time of Christs suffering vntil his resurrection sides in sol◠remansit beata Virgine that onely the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith and consequently that the Church subsisted for that time onely in her Yet God be blessed for it wee need not to fly to any such defence We shall bring into the field pares aquilas nay plures aquilas more ensignes and banners then you yea incomparably more for the first and best Ages and if you exceed vs in the latter I wish you to remember that in time in liquors the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs Yea but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages as we cannot name one in euery age How proue you this Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand A beggerly Rapsodist whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues and the ragges that remaine as I am informed will be shortly by another puld away Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement and more integrity then our worthy Morton now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield hath prooued him to be yet beeing a knowne Papist to alleage meerely his work and words to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe and therefore you did well in this place to knock at the Buttery-dore And heere I intreat the Reader to note how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite In all the other passages of his Book there is nothing that pretends to wit or mirth but heer he is very pleasant now his dull wit is whetted he was not able in all the Conference nor since in his Answer to send out such a flash Will you know the reason The Spright of the Butterie possesseth him and thus he diuines The Protestants cannot abide with any patience when they bee much pressed in this poynt as appeareth by diuers that haue been vrged and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference who hauing been called vpon to produce Names burst forth c. It is true I burst forth not into a passion as you would make the Reader beleeue but into a laughter as did the rest of the company neither did I by any gesture or speech discouer my impatience but your folly who when I alledged you reasons and testimonies were not content with them but called for emptie names c. And what was this but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine surprized your iudgement you might haue vnderstood plainly perceiued that I cōpared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith to a Buttery-book but such a Catalogue as you then required and you vsually bring to proue the visiblity of your church viz. a companie of names and nothing else testes sine testimonijs witnesses deposing nothing for you And may not such emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to Butterie-books Note Reader say you what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants who indeed are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke then any good Record of Antiquitie as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his apostasie more respected the Butterie then any ecclesiasticall storie I maruell not that you Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry and the Blacke-gard of Rome haue a sharpe tooth against Luther who by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery and baked for the Popes Kitchin Certainly if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with hee did but hold that which hee got among you for after hee for sooke Sodom which you Apostataes call apostasie hee so hated and detested the gluttony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers and so sharpely inueighed against them that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him yet hee could not but confesse that hee was much too blame in two things that hee presumed to touch the Popes Crowne and the Monkes bellie Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities strike him out of your Butterie-booke and put Father Parsons in his place the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion or religious equiuocation because good man his name was strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Colledge in Oxford and hee expeld for falsifying the Butterie-booke and thereby cozening and purloining the Students of that Colledge The Protestant Relation Paragraph the seauenth touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori and à posteriori Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall is so visible that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Ergo. Master Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith
ceaseth Doctor Featly You haue a purpose Master Fisher to cauill you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue till his second Comming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shal be so visible that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Ergo. Master Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacie called Petitio principii Doctor Featly A demonstration à causa or à priori is not Petitio principij But such is my Argument Ergo. Is it not a sounder Argument to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith then as you do the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors Visible professors argue not a right faith Heretikes Mahumetanes and Gentiles haue visible professors of their impieties yet will it not hence follow that they haue a right beliefe On the contrary we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible Master Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori Doctor Featly Shall you prescribe me my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better then an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapous I list take you what buckler you can Master Fisher. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceedeth à priori Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause better then of the cause by the effect In this place or vpon the like occasion againe offered neerer the end of the disputation Master Sweet replied M. Sweet This is to diuert the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the visibilitie of your Church which you ought to proue out of good Authors Doctor Featly May not a man proue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing authors for it Master Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori Doctor Featly What a reason is this May not an effect bee prooued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius Master FISHER'S Answer Thus farre the Relator who hath heere added much more then was said and in particular those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to haue said viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue then à priori Master Fisher did not speake perhaps hee might say That a proofe à posteriori doth better demonstrate to vs then à priori not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori before that which is à priori but that such a proofe à posteriori as hee in this present question required and as the question it selfe exacted would better demonstrate or shew to all sorts of men which is the true Church then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church as shall be shewed when need is heereafter At this present it may suffieâ—â—â— say to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church For supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith according to the Protestants Relator viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible and as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting so visible as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker contr Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets of the propagation amplitude and glorie of the Church is most cleerly witnessed by Histories and supposing lastly out of Doctor Iohn White in his way p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vs but by Histories Supposing all this I say it is most apparant that if there cannot bee produced as there cannot Names of Protestants or of any other professors of Christian faith in all Ages out of Histories to whom Gods promises agree besides those which are knowne Roman Catholiques not Protestants nor any other but onely the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith and of which al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation Doctor FEATLY'S Reply I maruel not M. Fisher that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds for you haue much adoo with all your strength and skil to get yourself out of the mire M. Sweet since he left our Vniuersities and was metriculated into your Society seemes to speak in our Academicall Phrase to haue resumed gradum Simeonis and to haue proceeded backward for whatsoeuer truth in Logick or Philosophy hee had learned in our Schools he hath learned to vnlearn in yours It seemeth he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was who took double pay of his scholars for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others Hee was taught in our Schools that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demonstrated but by the cause for Scire est causam scire propter quam c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a scientificall Syllogism proceeding of those things that are former in nature and more knowne and causes of the conclusion All this he hath vnlearned and will needs go about to perswade vs that An effect because it is posterius must needs be proued by an effect and by the same reason that effect by another effect and Thirdly the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie or mystery of iniquity in it which is not the Church but a preualent and predominant faction in it The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member though a sick and weak one of the Catholique visible Church and consequently to haue some part in the gracious promises made to the Church in the Gospell but the Papacy or that predominant faction is no member but a botch or an aposteme in the Church to which none of those promises belong yet many
discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon and begin to hate her and make her desolate and wee doubt not but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie by stripping her naked and eating her flesh and burning her with fire Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone Confingant tale quid Haeretici confingant tale quid Papistae Let the Papists feine some such like thing let them deuise if they can any Protestant Church or any other society or person in the world in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described are so conspicuously to bee seen as in the Romish Synagogue and the Head thereof and then I will confesse I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters but till they haue brought some man State Society or Church in the world in whom the former marks are more visible than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man who said pleasantly that If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist he had very ill luck for if there should be a proclamation or warrant to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse without all question the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eightth touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner Doctor Featly What Answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Master FISHER'S Answer This Argument as it is set downe is so far from being a demonstration whose propertie is To conuince the vnderstanding as it is not a probable or morall perswasion for I am verily perswaded that no wise man not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions will or can bee so much as morally conuinced or in any sort probably perswaded by it that Protestants bee the true visible Church more then a man in case of doubt can be by the like Argument which a man may make to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in all the parish thus Those who are in heart true honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men Ergo. As this proofe is not able to make any man not partially affected to beleeue these men to be well spoken of or to bee honest-men so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church or to haue the true faith Secondly if the terme That Church bee vnderstood onely of a particular Church as for example the Church of England it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme according to any of the vsual moods Barbara Caelarent c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee then both Maior and Minor are false and so it cannot bee a demonstration whose propertie is To consist of most certainly true propositions The Maior in this latter sense is false for that there may be a Church or companie who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels who for want of visible profession are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be The Minor is false also for the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith neither is that faith they haue vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hould this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hould next yeere I doe not knowe Which is true in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change But if Doctor Featly shall say that hee neither meant the tearme That Church in either of the aforesaid senses but meant to signifie by it That one holy Catholique and Apostolique Church which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpetually visible then indeed the Maior is true but the Minor is most false and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration especially when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hard to be knowne especially by onely Scripture Of the sense whereof according to Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure for if the whole Church or companie to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth may erre then much more may euerie particular man erre and consequently no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture Thirdly this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question for in asking which is the true visible Church or congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church that of it being first knowne by other marks wee may learne what is the true faith in all points in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith Fourthly although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it A demonstration à priori Doctor FEATLY's Reply I know diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe with Tullies Orator and Xenophons
ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae et quia nō possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionē nō enim per literas traditā illam sed per viuam vocē When they are conuinced by Scripture they fall on accusing the Scriptures thēselues as if they were not as they ought to be or were not of authoritie and that they are variously or ambiguously vttered and that out of them the truth cānot be found by those who are ignorant of tradition for that it viz. the truth was not deliuered by letters but by word of mouth Is not this in part your plea at this day that the scriptures are ful of ambiguities that they receyue countenance whole authority quoad nos from the Church that the written Word without vnwritten traditions is not sufficient Thirdly there is no positiue Article of our faith which you your selues or the learnedst among you doe not hold and beleeue as Catholique therefore wee are on a sure ground euen by your owne confession To instance in most of the principall Articles First wee beleeue the Canonicall Scripture to be the Word of God you beleeue them also to bee so but adde vnto them the Apocrypha Secondly wee beleeue the Originals of the two Testaments in Hebrew and Greek to bee authenticall and of vndoubted authoritie you I hope beleeue so too but you adde that the vulgar Latin Translation is authenticall also Thirdly wee beleeue the written Word of God to bee the ground of faith you beleeue so but adde thereunto the vnwritten word Fourthly we beleeue that Christ is the Head of his Church you beleeue so likewise but adde vnto him a visible Head the Pope Fiftly we beleeue that there are two places Heauen for them that shall bee saued and Hell for them that shall bee damned you beleeue so too but adde thereunto other places more Purgatorie Limbus patrum and Limbus infantum Sixtly wee beleeue that the true God is to be worshipped in Spirit and truth you beleeue so too but you adde that hee may bee analogically and relatiuely worshipped by Images Seuenthly we beleeue that we ought to call vpon God you beleeue so too but adde heereunto that you may call vpon Saints Eightthly we beleeue that Christ is our Mediator both of redemption and intercession you beleeue so too but you adde to him Angels and Saints vpon whose intercession and merits you in part relie Ninthly we beleeue that the Saints departed beare most ardent affection to the Saints liuing vpon earth and pray in generall for the Church militant you beleeue so too but adde that they haue knowledge of our particular necessities and pray to God in speciall for vs. Tenthly we beleeue that Christ hath instituted two Sacraments in his Church Baptisme and the Eucharist you beleeue so too but adde to them fiue other Matrimonie Penance Ordination Confirmation and Extreme Vnction Eleuenthly we beleeue that grace is annexed to the Sacraments in such sort that all those who worthily receiue them participate also of sanctifying grace you beleeue so too but adde that the Sacraments conferre this grace ex opere operato a worse Solecism in Diuinity than in Grammar and that God is tied vnto them so that all children dying without Baptism are necessarily damned Twelfthly wee beleeue that the intention of the Minister is requisite to the right administration of the Sacrament you beleeue so too but you adde that the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister Thirteenthly we beleeue that in the Eucharist the worthy Communicant really partaketh of Christ's Body you beleeue so too but adde that Christ is receiued orally and carnally vnder certain Accidents the elements beeing transubstantiated Foureteenthly we beleeue that we are iustified and saued by the merits Passion of Christ you beleeue so too but adde thereunto your owne merits and satisfaction Fifteenthly we beleeue that we ought to pray for all the members of Christs militant Church vpon earth you beleeue so too but adde therunto that wee may and ought to pray for the Dead also Sixteenthly we beleeue and receiue the three Creeds the Apostles the Nicene and that of Athanasius and the foure generall Councels you beleeue them also but adde a fourth Creed viz. the twelue new Articles coined by the Pope and annexed to the Councell of Trent Thus you see how the Articles of our beleefe are drawne out of your owne confessions That which wee hold for matter of faith necessary to saluation you and in a manner all the Christians in the world hold as we And therefore our doctrine is Catholique according to Vincentius Rule quòd ab omnibus quòd vbique quòd semper whereas your additions to the Catholique faith were neuer maintained neither by all Christians in any Age nor by any Christians in all Ages Neither you nor all the Papists in the world are able to proue any one point of your Trent-faith wherein you differ from vs to be Catholique And now let vs hear your Paralogisms against my demonstration Obiect 1. First you say it conuinceth not the vnderstanding and therefore is no demonstration Answer This obiection of yours sheweth that you need to be informed in your vnderstanding how a demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding It is not the property of a demonstration actually to conuince the vnderstanding but potentially or vertually The meaning of this Proposition A demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding is this that A demonstration hath in it power and strength to inforce the vnderstanding of any intelligent man to assent to the conclusion the premises beeing before apprehended by him and euery demonstration is a Syllogisme and euery Syllogisme proceedeth ex quibusdam positis To illustrate this by that vsuall example of the eclipse of the Moon which the Astronomers demonstrate by the cause to weet the interposition of the earth between the Sun and the Moon Before this demonstration will conuince the vnderstanding of any man he must first haue the tearms expounded vnto him afterwards he must be taught that the Moon hath not light of her self but receiueth it from the Sunne thirdly that the Sunne casteth his light by right lines Fourthly it must be shewed how in such points called by Astronomers Caput cauda Draconis the Sunne and Moone are diametrally opposed whereby it comes to passe that by the interposition of the earth the Moon is debarred from receiuing light by the Sunne-beames And thus in the end the vnderstanding is conuinced by this demonstration That which is hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne by the interposition of the earth is eclipsed But the Moon in the points aboue-named viz. the head and taile of the Dragon is alwaies hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne by the interposition of the earth Ergo the Moon alwaies in those
points is eclipsed Aquinas sheweth that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme but the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion In like manner I grant that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince a man either vtterly ignorant or in error as I feare you are to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church But if as I enforced you to assent to the Maior so you would haue but staied and suffred mee to inforce the Minor will you nill you you should haue beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion But say you in your worthy witty instance This Argument doth no more perswade a man that the Protestants are the true visible Church then a man in case of doubt can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus Those who are in heart honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish c. Good Sir let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill for the whirling about of the sailes wrought very much vpon your braine as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell Had not you had a whimpsy in your head you would neuer haue set this your Paralogisme as a Parallel to my demonstration In my demonstration the Maior rightly vnderstood is vndoubtedly true and de fide as your selfe confesse page 23. The Scripture doth shew the holy Catholique and Apostolique Church both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpeâ—tually visible But in your Syllogisme the Maior is apparantly false If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of how can the Apostles words stand Sine per famam siue per infamiam either by good report or by euill report c Nay how can the words of truth it selfe be verified Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake Againe perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame but honest and vertuous actions It is not the inward burning but the outward shining of our light before men which maketh men to see our good works and thereby glorifie God in vs for them Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme wee haue the better and therfore this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it A demonstration but with this addition of Fishers folly To be an honest man in heart is both prius naturâ and morally eligibilius in nature before and more desireable then to be well spoken of Mallem de me dicas Vir bonus est ergo bonae famae quà mè contra By this very argument the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a secundary proofe and a common accident to the truth of faith And as wee therefore enquire of fame that we may know a mans vertue so wee therefore enquire of the true Church as your selfe confesse Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith We seeke a guide that we may finde the way and not the way that wee may finde a guide If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame put case he liued in a Desart I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument I would produce fame In like manner if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof I would hold it as you doe a point of principall moment to enquire of the Visibility of professors but sith we haue another more easie direct and infallible meanes to prooue it viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures you shall giue me leaue M. Fisher rather to follow this Method generally prescribed and vsed by the Antient Fathers as I haue shewed before Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you Obiect 2. Secondly you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises The Maior you say is false for that there may bee a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels c. An instance as wide from the mark as the heauen is distant from the earth Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation Are Angels visible Are all â—orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels Doe you hold it for a good interpretation If thy brother offend thee tell the Church that is tell the Angels or a Church of Angels Although Christ bee the Head of Angels and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense yet I neuer read of a Church of Angels Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaedaâ—m non Angelorum sed hominum The Church is a Society or company not of Angels but of men If I should haue brought such an Argument to proue the militant Church vpon earth of which we disputed to bee inuisible because the Angels are inuisible I should haue suspected my selfe to haue beene as wise as hee that adored for a Relique one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings Erubuit salua res est you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer and therfore you insist not vpon it but passe to the Minor burdening it with falshood saying The Protestants faith is not vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hold this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hold next yeere I doe not know I can requite you with a like Apophthegme The Popish faith is so subiect to change that wee may say of it as a learned person in France once said That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets he must looke into an Almanack for them At one time the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre At another time they pull in that horne and then for a season such murder is disauowed That the Councell is aboue a Pope was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the fifts time it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent the edition of the vulgar by Sixtus Quintus was authenticall and not
non videns lapidem non lapidem c. A man no man that is an Eunuch seeing not seeing that is seeing dimly being â—urblind a stone no stone that is a pumice for heere is a priuate Letter no Letter relating not relating the substance of my Argument not my Argument First it may bee call'd a priuate Letter because it was seald vp like a priuate Letter and indorsed to an Honorable Personage yet it was no priuate Letter for diuers copies of it were dispersed and read before the Earle receiued it who heard of it before hee read it His Lord-ships name was set vpon it onely to make it more passable and to giue vent for such cheating wares as Master Fisher thought would passe more currant by a Letter addressed to so Noble a Personage Secondly it relateth and not relateth because it omitteth much more then it relateth for the Introduction in the beginning and the Induction in the end of the Conference and all my Replies in the middle they are all not circumcised only as the Argument here relateth but quite cut out Thirdly it relateth my Argument not my Argument my Argument because propounded in most of my words yet not my Argument because not according to my meaning when I disputed thus in the Conference The Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible or ought to bee so visible that the names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages I argued not so according to my owne opinion but as it is expresly set downe in the Conference ex concessis vpon your owne ground vpon which to supplant you I held it a great disparagement to your cause and therefore in repeating the Argument againe I expresly added as you your selfe confesse That Church which holdeth this faith you beleeue I said not wee to bee so visible as that the names of the Professors may be shewed c. In the very entrance to the Conference you acknowledge these to haue beene my words although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false supposals for a Church may haue beene visible yet not the names of all Professors thereof now to bee shewed And againe Are all visible mens names vpon record are all Records in former times now to bee produced And againe in the same page M. Sweet calling for names of Protestants well might say If Protestants had beene in all Ages their names in euery Age might bee produced Vnto which as the Protestant Relâ—tor â—aith and the Counter-Relator denieth it not D. Featly replyed saying This is a non sequitur Out of all which passages it euidently appeares that both you in this your Letter and L. D. otherwise M. Sweet in the defence of the Appendix bely your owne consciences in saying that I professed out of mine owne iudgement opinion that the true Church must be able to name Professors in all Ages It is true as Brasidas the Lacedemonian ran thorow his Aduersary with his owne Speare so I took that proposition tanquam hastam amentatam from you to wound you with your owne weapon And although I needed not at all to haue descended to an Induction or produced any Catalogue of such as maintained Protestant Doctrine by name yet the more to conuince you and to satisfie some of the Auditory I beganne a Catalogue and had proceeded farther in it if I had not beene called away by those whose Authority and Loue might command mee who would not suffer mee to deale any longer with an aduersary so atheologicall and alogicall so irreligious and vnreasonable so irreligious to refuse finally and peremptorily to answer an instance in Christ and his Apostles beeing vehemently pressed and not without adiuration Secondly so vnreasonable to require an Opponent to prooue at once eminent professors for 1500 yeeres to haue taught Protestant Doctrine Was there euer any that vndertook to make good a catalogue of Professors in all Ages who did not first prooue that there were such in the first Age and then in the second et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Was there euer a Respondent who vndertook to answer an Argument by Induction of particulars consisting of 15 or rather 15 hundred particulars and al in his iudgement questionable who did not answer them piece-meale in order first applying his Answer to the first particular and secondly to the second c I cannot patterne you better then by that malefactor who hauing stolne my Oxen and beeing indited for them seuerally would not answer directly to the first enditement Guilty or not guilty but said still that hee had that Oxe with his fellowes heereby hoping vpon tryall of the whole in one lump to escape by his book or benefit of Clergie as wee call it In like manner when you were put to it to answer directly Whether the Protestant Professors were not visible in the first Age and so in the second and so in the third c you answer It was not visible in the first Age with the rest nor in the second with the rest and further you will not goe The difference betweene you is onely this He answered so shufflingly and confusedly to saue his neck and you to saue the rack of an Argument he to slip out by his Clergy you by your vnclerkly Sophistry You may bee sure such kinde of foggie and misty answering could no way satisfie a man of so cleere a iudgement and apprehension in controuersies of this nature as the Earle of Warwick is Which that you may the better know from his own pen I will acquaint you with a Letter wrote by occasion of this businesse by his Lordship and addressed to Sir Humfrey Lynde To my louing friend Sir Humfrey Lynde SIR since my beeing at your house at the Disputation of M. Doctor Featly and Fisher diuers haue come vnto mee to know whether it was a Disputation appointed by me or no and whether I was not satisfied with it Whereby I perceiue those that learne the doctrine of equiuocation will not spare to tell a plaine lye to doe any man wrong that is not of their opinion And I am the more confirmed in this opinion for since last night M. Plume came to mee and deliuered this enclosed letter which I much maruell at I would not answer it but thus that I would speake with you and that M. Fisher should not need feare that D. Featly would flee from him but meet him at any time to make good his Tenet I had thought to haue spoken with you my selfe but my earnest occasions pressed mee to go this day into the countrey Wherefore if you meet I pray let the company know for the meeting that I knew of it but halfe an howre before it was and I came at the request of another Gentleman and for no desire of mine to be satisfied for I thank God my conscience makes no doubt of the truth of our Religion This I say because I heare that
all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknes and Perkins that An vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the whole face of the earth and Iewell that Luther Zuinglius were most excellent men sent from God to giue light to the whole world their meaning is not that there was no light in those times in Goshen or that there were no Abdiases with many other Prophets lying in secret or that there were not many thousands that neuer bowed the knee to the Romish Baal for they all affirme the contrary in sundry places of their writings But they take the word World as it is vsually taken both in sacred prophane Writers for the greater part of the world or at least that part that beareth the greatest sway and is in a manner onely in voage Their words sound according to the Tenor of those in S. Iohn The whole world is set on wickednesse and the like in S. Ierome Totus mundus ingemuit se factum Arrianum the whole world sighed that it became Arrian As Luther so Caluin also acknowledgeth that Christ hath alwaies had his floore on earth sometimes more sometimes lesse purged And further they deny not but that before the publick and generall purging of the floore of the visible Church from the chaffe of Romish superstitions in our daies there were many that in sundry corners of the earth seuered diuers heaps of wheat from the chaffe and clensed it from darnell tares Among whom were Fratres Pigardi a remainder of the Waldenses betweene whom and Caluin many kinde offices passed as their mutuall Letters testifie extant in Caluins works Thus one of the Preachers of the Waldenses writes to Caluin Reuerend in the Lord because aboue 30 yeeres agoe when you remained at Argentine there was an holy league of loue and entire friendship and familiarity betweene you and the brethren who are falsely termed Pigards or Waldenses our dearest Fathers in the Lord Wee who now hold the place of those our Fathers whom God hath called almost all of them out of this mortall life thought fit to renew that knowledge or rather band of Christian loue wherewith all the seruants of God especially the Ministers of the Gospell ought to be most strictly and firmely knit together To the former letter Caluin returnes this courteous answer Epist. 251. Wee render you more then ordinary thankes for sending the brethren vnto vs who may remaine as witnesses and pledges of your loue towards vs and brotherly coniunction which kind office of yours wee the more willingly embrace because it flowed from a sincere loue of true Religion Wee desire that you will be likewise perswaded of the like affection in vs towards you and the great desire we haue to cherish this holy vnity among vs. For being so farre remooued one from another and compassed round about with enemies who take vp the greater part of the world it is a great delight vnto vs to enioy yet this comfort of our dispersion c. Againe the same Caluin in his Epistles Epist. 179. to Stanist Carninsk thus writeth of the Waldenses I hope the best of your agreement with the Waldenses not onely because God alwaies vseth to blesse the holy vnity in which the members of Christ grow vp together but also because in these your rudiments and beginnings I conceiue that the skill and long experience of the Waldenses will bee an extraordinary help vnto you wherefore all of you must doe the vttermost of your endeuours that this holy agreement consent betweene you may more and more be established c. Martin Bucer whom you alleage in the next place held the like correspondence with the Waldenses as may be gathered from that Letter of his which hee wrote vnto them Blessed be the Lord God our louing Father who hath preserued you to this present time in so great knowledge of his truth and who hath now inspired you in the search thereof hauing made you capable and fit to doe it Behold now what the nature of true faith is which is that so soone as it knowes in part any spark of the diuine light it preserueth carefully the things that are giuen vnto it of God Saint Paul is an example to vs who in all his epistles shewes the great care that he hath had to procure the glory of God And doubtlesse if wee pray with a good heart that the name of God be sanctified and his Kingdome may come we shall prosecute nothing with such diligence as the establishment of the truth where it is not and the aduancement thereof where it is already planted One onely thing doth especially grieue mee that our imployments at this time are such about other affaires that wee haue no leasure to answer you at large as we desire c. By the contents of this Letter and many other passages in Bucers Works which for breuities sake I omit it appeares that Bucer in calling Luther the first Apostle of the reformed Doctrine did not thereby intend that Luther was the first that euer preached the Doctrine of the reformed Churches for hee could not bee ignorant that after Christ and his Apostles and the Fathers for 6 or 700 yeers Bertram Elfrick Berengarius and Petrus Brus and Henry of Tolous and Dulcinus and Arnoldus and Lollardus and Wicklef and Hus and Ierome of Prague and many other Starres fought in their courses against the Romish Sisera But Bucers meaning is that Luther was the first who in our Age and memory publikely and success-fully set on foot a generall Reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts when the corrupt matter of Popish errors and superstitions long in gathering grew now to a ripe coare Luther was the first who openly lanced it Luther formed no new Church but reformed the Church hee found and therefore cannot bee termed The first Apostle of Protestant Doctrine although in a tolerable sense hee may be stiled The first Apostle of the happie Reformation in our daies Luther burnisht and refined the gold of the Sanctuary obscured with rust he made not new gold In your allegation out of Beza by suppressing the Aduerb penè almost you shew your selfe non penè not almost sed penitùs altogether a falsificator Beza's words Epist. 5. are Huic tum demum locum esse dicimus cùm vel nulla vel penè nulla est ordinaria vocatio sicut nostris temporibus accidit in Papatu We say that then extraordinary calling takes place when there is either no or almost no ordinary vocation of Pastors as in our time fell out in the Papacie This almost you omit altogether For Beza's opinion touching extraordinary calling as I doe not heere oppugne so much lesse doe I vndertake to maintaine We can and haue prooued lawfull ordinary calling in our Church of England as you may see in M. Masons most accomplished Treatise of this Subject lately reuised by him before his death and translated into Latine at this instant
sweating vnder the Presse Admit there had beene no ordinary calling of right-beleeuing Church-men Bishops or Priests when Luther did first sound his siluer Trumpet what will you inferre thereupon that at that time there was no visible Church There Beza leaues you who professeth both a visible Church in generall consisting of members sound and vnsound and these more or lesse and in particular hee calleth the Waldenses The seed of the most pure antient Christian Church which was miraculously preserued in the midst of the darknes and errors which haue beene hatched by Satan in these latter times And as Beza leaues you in this your inference so also doth the Truth For although the Ship of Christ is in great danger when erronious Pastors like false lights are set vp in the Watch-Towers of Sion yet sith our chiefe Pilot hath forewarned vs heereof and bid vs take heede of false prophets and teachers and hath left vs a most certaine direction in his Word which is the true Light 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 conduct vs to those pulchri portus the faire Hauens in Heauen the people of God may keepe the right way and through Gods grace escape the quick-sands of heresie As God bestoweth diuers gifts of the Spirit ordinarily vpon the Clergie so he bestoweth also where he pleaseth Spiritum discretionis in the Laytie a Spirit whereby they may discerne spirits whether they are of God or no a Spirit by which trying all things they may hold fast that is good And if their ghostly Fathers offer them a stone for bread or a Serpent for fish they will cast it away Or if more cunningly they shall mingle error and heresie with truth and offer them as your Teachers did and doe an apple with a worme in it or a cup of wine with a dead Fly they will take out the worm and Fly and then eat of the one and drink of the other This is that which Lydius truly obserueth Oft-times the eares of the Auditors are purer then the tongue of the Preacher Hee deliuers vngarbled spices they garble it vnsifted meale they sift and boult it impure milke they straine it In the daies of Ieremy and much more after the death of the Prophet Malachy vntill the birth of Christ there were few Doctors in Israel that rightly expounded the Law and taught Gods people as they ought yet no man doubts that God had then a visible Church as also afterwards in the time of the Arrian Eutychian persecution in which there were very few Bishops or Pastors vntainted with those heresies Therefore although we should grant you your antecedent out of Beza that there was no ordinary vocation at that time of pure and sincere Teachers yet wee will barre you of your conclusion that at that time there was no visible Church Our English Diuines alledged by you affirme no such thing Perkins saith not that our Church was simply inuisible but that it was not visible to the world adding in the same place that it lay hid vnder the chaffe of Popery And the truth of this saith hee the Records of all Ages manifest The same Perkins in his Reformed Catholick more fully explaineth his meaning thus Though Popery raigned and ouerspred the face of the earth for many hundred yeeres yet in the middest thereof God reserued a people to himselfe that truly worshipped him The woman fled into the wildernesse c. And she still retaines a remnant of her seed which keepe the commandement of God and haue the testimony of Iesus Christ. See here how farre hee is from denying a Protestant Church extantâ— that he affirmeth it to haue growne vp and thriued euen in the Thicket of Popery though much ouer-shadowed and ouer-topped Neither can you finde any flaw or cloud in that orient Geâ—â—â—â— of our Church Bishop Iewell whose words are these When in the middest of the darknesse of that Age first beganne to spring and shine some glimmering beame of truth vnknowne at that time and 〈◊〉 of When also Martin Luther and Hâ—lderick Zuinglius beeing most excellent men euen seek from God to giue light to the whole world first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell c. A Diamond cannot bee cut or polished but by a Diamond Let therefore this Iewell brighten and cleere himselfe In the same part of the Apologie Chap. 5. Diuis 1. hee calleth Martin Luther the publisher and setter forward of this doctrine not the Author And Chap. 14. Diuis 1. he fully cleeres the point in difference betweene vs touching visible Protestants before Luther Many 〈◊〉 many learned and godly men haue often and carefully complained how all these things haue cleered 〈◊〉 time For euen in the middest of that 〈◊〉 darknesse God would yet there should bee some who though they gaue not a cleere bright light yet should kindle were it but some sparks which men being in darknesse might espie And hee particularly 〈…〉 Hillary Gregory Bernard Pauperes de Lugdâ—â—◠〈◊〉 Bishops of Greece and Asia as also 〈…〉 Petrach Sauanarolla and others And Chapter 15. he preuenteth a câ—uill that might haue bin made against these witnesses of the truth by some ignorant persons Neither saith hee can any man alleage that these Authors were Luthers or Zuinglius Schollers for they liued not only certaine yeeres but also certaine Ages â—re euer Luther or Zuinglius names were heard of Now I pray see M. Fisher what a goodly dish of fish you haue serued in to furnish your Table and let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you may safely trust M. Brerâ—ly or wee you in allegations especially out of Protestant Writers whose words either you corrupt or adulterate their meaning or both as euidently appeares in all the places aboue-cited And thus haue I now at length spung'd out all the spots which your pen hath cast on the Conference As for personall aspersions vpon mee especialy of want of grauity and patience I hold it fittest to refell these and the like slanders by silent and patient enduring them As you heerein take Petilian the Donatist for your precedent of impudent railing so I will take Saint Austen for my patterne of silent patience and cloze vp all further Answer in his words Quid mirum si cùm grana de areâ Domini excussa simul paleam intror sum trabo iniuriam resilientis pulueris suffero What maruell if in sweeping the Lords floore and seeking to gather-in graines that are flowne out I endure a little dust Homo sum enim de areâ Christi palea si malus granum si bonus non est hâ—ius area vâ—niâ—labrum lingus Petiliani I am a man and I know I am of Christs floore that is in his true visible Church all the Papists in the world shall neuer disprooue it If I am euill I am chaffe if good I am wheat and whether I bee the one or the other this is my comfort I am sure the
vp of the Conference p. 119. 11 Of the issue of the Conference page 129. A Copie of M. Fisher's Letter to the Earle of Warwick p. 139. An Answer vnto the same by D. Featly page 142. A Copie of a Letter from the Earle of Warwick to Sir Humfrey Lynde page 146. Master Fisher's Reflection vpon the Conference with the Answer of Doctor Featly page 147. Wherein 1 A testimony out of Luther alledged to proue the inuisibility of the Protestants Church is answered page 150. 2 Luther's testimony of VVesselus page 152. 3 Of the VValdenses page 154. 4 Of Hus 157. 5 A testimony out of Conrad Schlusenburg is answer'd p. 160. 6 A testimony out of Benedictus Morgenst answered p. 164. 7 A testimony out of Caluin is answered page 167. 8 Caluins testimony of the Waldenses is produced p. 168. 9 A testimony out of Bucer is answered page 169. 10 In what sense Luther may be termed the first Apostle of the Reformed Churches is declared page 170. 11 An allegation out of Beza answered page 171. 12 An Allegation out of Perkins answered page 173. 13 An Allegation out of Bishop Iewell answered page 174. 14 The Conclusion page 178. To the courteous Reader I Intreat thee courteous Reader to vnderstand that the greater part of this book was printed in the time of the great Frost when by reason that the Thames was shut vp I could not conueniently procure the proofs to be brought vnto mee before they were wrought off whereupon it fell out that very many grosse escapes passed the Presse and which was the worst fault of all the third part of the book is left vnpaged This defect I finde no other means to remedy for the present than to referre thee to the letters of the Printers Alphabet set vnder the Page Thus therefore I pray thee correct the Errata following Faults escaped In the Conference page 6. line 9. for demanded r. and demanded p. 7. l. 7. four r. your In the Additions p. 27. l. 29. f. I should r should I. p. 30. l. 29. f. author r. aduersary In the Attestation p. 36. l. 8. f. prepetua r. perpetua In the Remonstrance H 2 * for approbation r. a good answer H 4 * l. 4. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 b. l 23. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 K * l. 9 f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 line 14. f. of Church r. of the Church l. 15. f. thing r. Chius K 2 * In mar f. quibus r. quidam f. falsa r. falsum l. penult dele the. K 3 * b l. 7. f. Vovius r. Voions l. 9. Wolfius r. Walfius l. 10. f. Moustre a Vortley r. Munster a Vortlegue K * b l. penult in marg f. de praescrip r. Tert. de praescrip K 4 b l. 14. f. Partus r. Paetus Quest. 1. touching the visibility of the Church L 3 * l. 5. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 L 3 l. 10. f. Becherites r. Bezerites l 12. f. Luiddamites r. Quiddamites M * b l. 21. dele into M 2 l. 28. f. eternally r. externally M 4 in marg f. obsconditur obsoluens r. absconditur absoluens M 2 b l. 19. f sweet fish rotten r good bad N * a l. 17. f. Margaerites r. pearles N * b l 28. f. a firmer r. the former O * l. 17. f. Lyranensis r. Lirmensis O 2 b l. 5. f Barradus r. Barradius Quest. 2. touching the names of visible Protestants P 3 a in marg f. lenone r. lenones Q 1 b in marg f. Caluini r. calicis Q 2 a l. 9. f sect r. track Q 3 l. 18. f. leaue r. leuie l. 23. f. Epistolae r. Epistolis Q 3 b adde in marg ad Occham Platin ex Wolf pröoem Q 4 b adde in marg The fixt assertien R 1 l. 26. f. this r. then R 1 b l. 18 f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 R 1 in marg f. excusseront r. exusserunt S 1 l. 28. f. forceth r. forteth S 2 b l. 23. dele of T 1 b l. 22. f. voculae r. voculas T 2 b l. 9. f. quum r. qum T 3 in marg f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T 3 b l. 3. f. Athanaeus r. Athenaeus T 4 l. 8. f. distinguish r. to distinguish V 1 l. 13. Corrige accentos ita 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 V 1 l. 20. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Pone in mar Odysâ— 3 In the reply page 1. line 1. adde M. Fisher. p. 1. l 10. superpone D. Featly p. 5. l. 25. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l 26. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 27. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 7. l. 9. for conifictiou r. confiction p. 11. l. 2. f. you r. yours p. 12. l. 2. f. m r. on p. 22. l. 13. f signal r. signall p. 32 l. 14 f. predicants r. predicaments p. 44. l. 6. f. be r. but. p. 48. l. 21. f. of r. Of. p. 51. l. 11. f. particula entirer r. particular entire p. 63. l. 8. f. Elohim reade barah Elohim p. 79. l. 10. f. metriculated r matriculated p. 83. l. 15. f. who keep r. they who keep p. 92. l. 8. f. namely fir r. in Siâ— In marg adde Viues de causis corrupt art l. 3. l. 16. f. Ceres r. Seres l. 17. f. Riphean r Rhiphean l. 24. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adde in marg Arist. analit post l. 1. c. 4. p. 101. l. 32. dele and. p. 103. l. 1. f. in error r. obstinate in error p. 104. l. 11. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 108 l. 23. dele he can p. 110 l. 11. f. Eleaetes r. the Eleaetes page 149. l. 4 f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 150 l 1. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 2. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 29. f. adeo r. à Deo et adde in mar extat et alâ—â— ad Argen ep in tract Histo de coen dom Casp. Peut Ambergae an 1596. vbineque habentur haec ve ba. p. 152. l. 10. adde in marg quia lux mundi vulgò dictus in script opuse p. 154. l. 9. f. habent r. habeant p. l. 162. l. 12. f. exet r. expetend p. 163. l. 21. f. Bishop r. Bishops p. 172. l. 11. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 THE OCCASION and issue of the late Conference had betweene Dr. White Deane of Carleil and Dr. Featly with Mr. Fisher and Mr. Sweet Iesuites was this as followeth EDward Bugges Esquire about the age of 70 yeeres beeing lately sicke was sollicited by some Papists then about him to forsake the Protestant faith
may be knowne by some periphrasis D. Featly What say you then to the Hereticks called Acephali who are so called because their Head Author cannot be named nor particularly described yet the Author was a visible man Are all visible mens names vpon Record are al the Records that were in former times now to be produced Heere diuers of M. Fishers company called Names Names Names D. Featly What will nothing content you but a Buttery-book You shall haue a Buttery book of names if you will stay a while Master FISHER'S Answer To this obiection touching the Acephali M. Boulton answered that those Acephali held some particular Doctrine which did amount to the nature of a name sufficient to distinguish them from others insinuating heereby that these Acephali were not Anonymi Further it may be answered that it is not certaine whether they had any particular Author for some say that they were a company who in the controuersie betwixt Iohn the Bishop of Antioch Cyril of Alexandria behaued themselues like Neutrals submitting themselues to neither as to their Head Others think that they were certaine men who beeing the Fauourers of Petrus Mogus the Heretick did afterwards renounce him from beeing their Head because he would not accurse the Councell of Chalcedon Others say that one Seueius Bishop of Antioch was their Author But howsoeuer this particular were it doth not conclude that there could be in all Ages visible professors of the Protestants faith whereof no story nor other antient Monument maketh mention of names or opinions or places of aboad of any of them or of those who opposed them as Stories make mention of some of these circumstances both of the Acephali and whatsoeuer other eminent professors of euery true or false Religion Wee doe not require that all visible mens names should bee vpon Record nor all Records produced For although to prooue such a visible Church as that of our Sauiour Christ described in Scripture to bee spred ouer the world a small number of visible Professors bee not sufficient as Saint Austen prooueth against the Donatists yet to shew how confident wee are of our cause wee for the present onely require that Three eminent Protestants names in all Ages be produced out of good Authors But they are so farre from beeing able to produce three as they cannot name one in euery Age as is cleerely proued in the Protestants Apology neither indeed can they abide with any patience when they bee much pressed in this point as appeareth by diuers who haue beene vrged and in particular by D. Featly in this Conference who hauing beene called vpon seuerall times to produce Names as hee had vndertaken at one time he burst foorth into these words set down by the Protestant Relator What will nothing content you but a buttery-book you shall haue a buttery-book if you will stay a while Note Reader this Doctors want of grauity and patience and what a fit title he giues to a Catalogue of names of Protestants who indeed are more like to be◠found in a Buttery-book then in any good Record of antiquity as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his Apostasie more respected the Buttery then any Ecclesiasticall Story Doctor FEATLY'S Reply In the Answer to this Paragraph first you shake hands with the Acephali afterwards you salute the Donatists in the end you take vp your lodging with the Spright of the buttery in whose company it seemes you take most delight To beginne with your Acephali These Acephali were a shole of Hereticks bred as it should seeme of the spawne of Eutyches Dioscorus for they held that there was but one nature in Christ viz. the diuine which they affirmed to haue beene crucified These differed from other Hereticks in this especially That whereas other Hereticks for the most part took their names from the Author and Head of their Sect as the Arians from Arius the Nestorians from Nestorius c these Hereticks because their first Author could not bee certainly knowne were termed Acephali from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 priuatiuo and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifying a Head as if you would say Head-lesse Hereticks So that as Pliny writes of the herb Anonymos nomen non inueniendo inuenit that it took it's name Anonymos from the want of a name so it may be truly said of these Hereticks that they took their name from the want or at least ignorance of the name of their parent and first Author Thus your Alfonso deduceth and expoundeth their name Haeretici Acephali dicti sic nominati sunt 〈◊〉 simul insurgentes nullus repertus est quiillarum esse◠princeps atque magister The Hereticks tearmed Acephali were so named because multitudes of them rising together there was found none who might be their Head and Master Neither doe you in your Answer contradict but rather confirme this Etymology by rehearsing diuers and sundry opinions touching their Head and Author Which variety of opinions and difference of Authors about him plainely argueth that no certainty was or can be had of him who he was and much lesse what was his proper name Wherefore distrusting your former Answer you adde a second saying Howsoeuer this particular were it doth not conclude that there could be in all Ages visible professors of the Protestant faith whereof no Story nor other antient Monument maketh 〈◊〉 of names or opinions or places of aboad of any of them 〈◊〉 of those who opposed them I grant it doth not conclude so much neither was it brought to conclude so much it prooueth sufficiently what intended viz. That your Question is grounded vpon a false Supposal it cutteth M. Sweet's reason in the hams If there were visible Protestants in 〈◊〉 Ages then certainly they may bee now named The Head and Author of the Heresie of the Acephali was I suppose a visible man yet can he not now nor for ought appeares could he then when hee broched his Heresie be named In like manner the 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal and all your Ancestors descending from Noah were certainly visible men yet can they not now be all named and therefore M. Sweet's Argument ab authoritate negatiue and à negatione vocis ad negationem rei is a poore fallacie fit to bee ranked with that which they wrongfully fasten on my Argument à priori viz. petitio principij or the begging the Question I wil not say that in disputing about the Acephali you shew your selfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but certainly in that which followeth you shew your self 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 else you would not so ignorantly apply Saint Austens proofes in his Book against Donatists to disprooue our Church For it is well knowne that we teach with Saint Austen that Christs visible Catholique Church is dispersed farre and wide ouer the face of the whole earth But you are the Donatists of our Age for as the Donatists confined