31 is sufficient for vs to beleeue that Iesus is that Christ and that in beleeuinge we might haue life in his name I remember that in the verball conference the B. of Eureux accused those of our side of a most wicked falsifying of this place for hauing translated the word tavta these things in stead of referring it onely to miracles of which alone he maintained that S. Iohn meant And because I could not get from him any cleare answer as then on expositioÌ„s of S. Augustin and saint Cyrill that I alledged wholly agreeable vnto ours I will in this place rehearse them â—t Tract 〈◊〉 45. The first saith though Iesus had doon very many things yet all were not written but that which seemed sufficient for the saluation of beleeuers was chosen to be written The other speaketh yet more clearely 〈◊〉 lib. 2. in 〈◊〉 cap. vlt. All the things saith he that Iesus did are not written but only those things that the writers thought sufficient as well for doctrin as for manners c. The B. of Eureux The apostles do not onelie giue vs examples of the vse of traditions â—s 2 15. but also commaundement Obserue saith Saint Paul the traditions that you haue receiued of vs be it by worde or by our Epistle In which place those of Geneua haue takeÌ„ out of their Frenche Bible the word Tradition which is in the Greeke and in the Latine and haue put insteade thereof Instruction To which it cannot be answered that saint Paul restraineth the generality of this proposition to the traditions onely which haue since beene written For it is in consequence of a tradition that he had giuen them concerning the cause that hindred the comming of Antichrist which was neuer written that he frameth this generall law And in this sence also do saint Basill S. Epiphanius and saint Chrysostome interprete it D. Tillenus his answer When saint Paul wrote this Epistle there was scarce any scripture of the new Testament For after our aduersaries own account no Euangelists yet had written and saint Paule had than written but his former Epistle to the Thesâ—â—â—nians Seing then these two Epistles did not conteine al the doctrin of Christ necessary to be known the Apostle fitly exhorteth the Thessalonians to obserue not only what he had afore written vnto them but also what he had taught them by word of mouth But doth it follow therefore that none of that should afterward be written Du Perron saith it doth because it is in consequence of a Tradition that he had giuen them touching the cause that hindred the comming of Antichrist which was neuer written that he frameth this generall Law But that is altogether false 2. Thes 2. â— we need but looke into the text to know of what Traditions the Apostle speaketh We ought alwayes saith he giue thanks vnto God for you because he hath chosen you to saluation through the sanctification of the spirit and the faith of truth whereunto he hath called you by our Gospell to obtaine the glory of our Lord Iesus Christ VVhereupon he addeth Wherefore keepe the Traditions that is to say these instructions of truth which you haue learned and which I haue giuen you either by word of mouth or by our Epistle By the consequence Du Perron draweth it should folow that part of this tradition touching the hindring of Antichrists comming should be written which vvas doon and therefore he ouerthroweth his own exposition Furthermore though all he saith were of force as it is of none yet could he but prooue thereby the traditions of the Apostles and not an infinite number of others which the Church of Rome causeth to be obserued as the Lawes of god vvhich vve know by their histories vvere instituted many ages after the Apostles times If because Moyses had giuen som instructions by vvord of mouth to the Israelites the Cabalists and Ievvish Rabins vvould make vs receiue the Traditions of their Thalmud who would admit them And if du Perron beleeue the Fathers let him beleeue then Tertullian Chrysostome and saint Hierome who say that after the ruine of the Romane Empire the throne of Antichrist should be established 〈◊〉 â—ome Which therefore is fulfilled seeing that the ruine o◠〈◊〉 Empire is notorious to all the world The B. of Eureux 〈◊〉 â— 2 1 He saith also to Timothie Tu ergo fili confortare in gratia quae est in Christo Iesu quae audisti à me per multos testes haec commenda fidelibus qui idonei crunt alios docere Of which deposite there had bene no neede if all the word of god as our aduersaries pretend to proue by this same Chapter had beene sufficiently written or should haue been from the very time of the Apostles D. Tillenus his answer 〈◊〉 1 13 The apostle himselfe declareth what he meaneth by this deposite which he exhorteth Timothie to keepe namely the patterne of wholsom words he had heard of him which consisteth in faith and loue and it followeth in this very verse that he shoulde communicate it vnto faithfull men which should bee able to teache others But in the third chapter he sayth most plainly 〈◊〉 3 15 â— that by the Scripture not onely Laymen as they call them but also the man of God that is to say the Pastour or Doctor of the Church should and may bee taught and made wise vnto saluation and absolutely instructed and made perfect vnto euery good work VVhence it followeth that this deposite or matter committed of trust vnto Timothie is nothing else but the scripture which is sufficiente euen for the saluation of a Bishop and not of a Lay man onely which later du Perron in our conference was forced to confesse finding no other distinction to escape The B. of Eureux Moreouer there are fowr points which our aduersarie shoulde with vs and condemne as we doe of heresie those that repugne the same at least wise touching the three former namelye the trueth of Baptisme of little children that of the Baptisme of heretickes the proceeding of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne and the translation of the feast from Saturday to Sondaye which can not bee concluded by any demonstraâ—â—â— proofe from any place of Scripture D. Tillenus his answer In al these articles if we beleue him the Scripture is no fouÌ„datioÌ„ pillar of our faith as Irenaeus sayd Irenaeuâ— c 1 Tertul. â— Hermoâ— And they that added them to Scripture need not fear the woe by Tertullian who reuereÌ„ced the fulnesse of the scriptures threatned after S. Iohn to those which cannot shew that that which they say is written nor the anthema of S. Augustin against those August Ecclesicâ— cont lit lib 3 cap Chrysosâ— Homil â— 20 cap â— that cannot reade in Scriptures the doctrine they teache nor the reproaches of Chrysostome who calleth them theeues that go vp by any other way into the fold than by the
Resurrection of the body it must necessarily inferre that it is therefore proper for to prooue it or that Christ was not fit for to reason Certainly when the resurrection of the body is proued the immortalitie of the soule is prooued also But he which prooueth but the immortalitie of the soule prooueth not for that the Resurrection of the bodie which was notwithstanding the question wherwith the Sadduces had assailed our lord who had by no meanes stopped their mouth if he had proued but the first point that is to say satisfied but the one halfe and the easiest part But this argument saith our Bishop was till then vnknowne to the Iewes who for that cause admired the wisdome of our Sauiour And therfore they must needs haue receiued the beleefe of it by another meanes than by the bookes of Moses namely by the tradition of Abraham Isaack and Iacob and other Fathers What vse hath then heere subsidiarie tradition which after our Bishop 〈◊〉 71. is the Gardian and keeper of the mysticall interpretation of the text of the scripture 〈◊〉 45. Or if there were none vpon this place as Du Perron seemeth to grant reckoning it among them that the sonne of God who hath the key of Dauid opened to his Disciples since he himselfe expounded the scriptures It will follow that the place was altogether vnprofitable before which is the bishops mysticall exposition that he might couertly giue Saint Paule the lye who maintaineth that The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration from God â—â—m 3 and is profitable c or as they of the Church of Rome translate it Euerie Scripture that is euery place of scripture meaning it euen of the olde Testament Now it is true that Saint Mathew saith that the multitude were astonied at the doctrine of Iesus Christ citing this place For the confusion and ignorance was so great vnder the Reigne of the Pharisaicall Traditions that it seemed to the auditours a thing miraculous to be able to alleadge the Lawe so pertinently and to purpose Euen like as in this last Reformation of the Church many of those that had beene all their life time brought vp in the superstitious Traditions of the Church of Rome haue beene astonied when they haue seene them so pertinently confuted by the holy scripture In the meane while the thing hath not beene so obscure as the bishoppe will haue it otherwise some euen among the Scribes would not haue approoued this allegation saying Maister thou hast well said Luke 20.39 Marke 12 2â— For they were so great enemies to Iesus Christ that they espied all occasions euen to the least of his words for to entrappe him And must Du Perron shew himselfe heere worse than were the Scribes and Pharises accusing our Sauiour Christes argument of obscuritie or impertinencie which was approoued by his greatest enemies Math. 22.3 who confessed that hee had stopped the mouthes of the Sadducies Which sheweth that the thing was so cleare manifest that there could bee no reply But what reason or testimonie can bee cleare to him who findeth not cleare enough the place of Daniel vnder colour that a Rabbi and one Polychroneus had some particuler doting vpon it yet more than sufficiently confuted by some of ours without any helpe of Tradition which our bishoppe holdeth so necessarie therein The wordes of Daniell are Oecolamp Dan. 12.2 Manie of them that sleepe in the dust of the Earth shall awake some to euerlasting life and some to confusion and eternall shame And they that bee wise shall shine as the brightnesse of the firmament and they that turne many to righteousnesse shall shine as the starres for euer and euer Beholde the place wherewith Du Perron saith a contentious spirit cannot be forced without the helpe of tradition that wee no more doubt of his intent which is not to content himselfe to make the scripture vnsufficient and imperfect but also wholly vnprofitable superfluous and vnapt seeing the clearest and most formall places haue no force nor vertue without Tradition which if wee will beleeue him forceth all euen the most contentious spirits to whom the scripture coÌ„tenteth it self to say 1. Cor 11.16 If any man lust to be contentious we haue no such custom neither the Churches of God What remaineth for him but to say that Tradition is God himselfe who alone is able to change the hearts to tame the rebellious and to make light shine out of darkenes Indeed there was a Bishopp in the counsell of Trent who without blushing or changing colour attributed to the Pope who is the principal spring and fountaine of the Traditions at this day in controuersie those words that Saint Iohn had said of the Eternall sonne of God calling him the light come into the world Orat. Corn. Epis Bitont in Conci Trid Iohn 1. Now if Iesus Christ had had the same opinion of the scripture as Du Perron would he not also haue said the like to the Sadducies as their Aduocate holdeth vnto vs Namely that they deceiued themselues to thinke to finde in the writinges of Moses all that was necessarie for them And that the fiue bookes of the Lawe were but a letter of credite referrring the rest to the sufficiencie of the bearer of the Tradition Hee dare denie that our Sauiour Christ attributed the cause of the Errour of the Sadducies to their ignorance of the Scripture though two vnreprooueable witnesses depose it and that in so cleare and euident tearmes that all the smoke of the bottomlesse pit Math. 22.29 Marke 12.24 25. cannot darken the light of it especially that of Saint Marke in these wordes Are yee not therefore deceiued because yee knowe not the Scriptures neyther the power of God To one that hath the boldnesse to denie such Textes I confesse I cannot shewe any thing neyther in the Olde nor in the Newe Testament In the meane while Du Perron may bee iudged heere by his owne mouth as that euill seruant in the Gospell being constrained to confesse that one of the causes of the errour of the Sadducies was the ignorance of the sense of the Scripture Luke 19 22 Fol. 52. though hee meane it but of the place cyted by themselues which commeth all to one reckoning for to bee ignorant of the sense of the scripture is to bee ignorant of the scripture But the true sense of the same is discerned and seene when the Father of Lightes maketh it be seene not when the Synagogue onely or the Church sheweth it which hath not any Tradition whatsoeuer for to open the eyes of the mind and to force the most contentious otherwise shee should manifest this force vppon the Turckes Iewes and Paganes if Tradition conteyned the true Efficient and Instrumentall cause both together Saint Hierome expoundeth the place of saint Marke in these wordes They erre saith hee because they know not the Scriptures and because they are ignorant of them they know not the
first of all it setteth forth all the reliques of Saints departed and suborneth false ones too for to make the people to commit Idolatrie instead of resisting the deuill whē he broacheth such inuentions as the Archangel did c. Secondly instead of honoring reuerencing the magistrate the Pope who calling himselfe the vniuersall Shepheard of Christian people should be vniuersall patterne to his flocke causeth his feet to be kissed by Kings Emperors yea trāpleth vnder his feete the greatest dignities of the earth What saith our Byshop to this hee cryeth ignorance against mee 〈◊〉 16. to impute to the Church of Rome that which frō all times hath bin practised by the whole Catholike Church throughout all the world Item to make no difference betweene the reliques of Saints before and after the Incarnation of the Saint of Saints Wee thanke him for confessing that the Romish Church maketh the people cōmit idolatrie after reliques true or false For to inwrap in the same impietie all the auncient Church hee quoteth a long list of places of the Fathers gathering together all their Hyperboles on this matter all the reliques of Paganisme all the indiscreet deuotions of the people with the conniuences of the Byshops brought in with the streame or tyde of custome all the Prosopopoeiacs Apostrophes Epiphonema's and other figures of which their Panegyricks are full are vnto him groūds of christian religiō Apostolicke traditions ineuitable demonstrations and indemonstrable principles for his maner is to handle the Fathers so as that he bringeth away frō them but the sweeping as it were far from the industry and wisdom of an heathen who gathered gold forth of anothers drosse Now if I do not verifie this by some cōtrary places takē forth of the same Fathers that he alleageth he will cry against me as he did against the Lorde of Plessis that I could not doe it and that if I went about but to quote one onely example the paper would blush an hundred yeares after Let vs therefore oppose to the place of Gregorie of Nysse which hee setteth in the head of his squadron some places of that excellent Epistle which this holy Father wrote of purpose against them that goe on Pilgrimage to Ierusalem let vs see from which of them we shall draw most instruction and resolution They saith he which once haue dedicated themselues to a more excellent manner of life it shall goe well with them if they take heed alwayes to the words of the Gospel and as they that guide their work by a Rule redresse by the streightnes of the same that which before was crooked so I thinke it meet that wee addresse and referre these things to God applying heerein the ordinance of the Gospel as a Rule streight vnchangeable Seeing then there be some that choose a priuate solitary life who thinke that it is godlines religion to haue visited the places of Ierusalem wherein are seene the markes of the cōming of the Lord in the flesh the thing goeth well if we take heede to the Rule it self to the end that if the commandements cary vs thether we may do this work as an ordinance of the Lord. But if it appeare that it hath been brought in besides the commandements of the Lord I know not what this can bee that hee which proposeth to himself for a law of good commandeth another to do When the Lord calleth the Blessed for to receiue the kingdom of heauen he reckoneth not among the good works Math. 2 5 which bring a man thither going on pilgrimage to Ierusalem When he declareth the true blessednesse Math. ◠he comprehendeth not therin such an imployment Now to what purpose shall a man imploy himselfe in that which neither maketh happy nor serueth for the kingdome of heauer He which hath vnderstanding let him consider it After he representeth at large the inconueniences dangers whereinto Pilgrimes put themselues the wickednesses that are commited in the places esteemed more holy then others And because himselfe had trauelled thither he yeildeth a reasō of it namely that his charge had bound him to visite the Church of Arabia for to reforme it and that he had promised to conferre with the Pastours of the Churches of Ierusalem who were troubled and had need of a mediatour Let no man then saith he be offended for our example but let our iudgement of it be the more receiueable seeing we giue it of the things that we our selues haue seene For we confessed Christ to be the true God euen before we went thither and afterwards likewise our faith being hereby neither diminished nor increased We knew that he was borne man of a Virgin before we saw Bethleem and wee beleeued his Resurrection before we saw his Sepulchre and we cōfessed his Ascension without seeing the mount of Oliues Neither haue we reaped any other fruites of our voyage saue only this that by the comparison of the places we haue learned that ours are much more holy than forraine parts Wherefore you that feare the Lord praise him in the places where you are For change of places maketh not the Lord neerer but God wil come to thee so that the house of thy soule be found such that he may dwell in thee If thy inward man be full of peruerse thoughts though thou beest at Golgotha at the mount of Oliues or vnder the sepulchre of the resurrection yet thou shalt receiue Iesus Christ as little into thee as they that neuer made profession of Religion Therefore my wel-beloued exhort the brethren to trauell from the body to the Lorde not from Cappadocia into Palestine c. Let this whole Epistle bee compared with the place cited forth of a Panegyricke of the same Father by the Byshop of Euerux and there is not so blinde an Idolatrer that seeth not that in this same he speaketh according to the word of God which he layeth for the ground of euerie good action and according to his iudgement and beleefe in the other according to the abuse of the time and according to the testimonie which he suffred not being able to withstand it August a◠Lannar a◠ciuit l. 10 no more then Saint Augustine who so earnestly complaineth against it And who in another place speaking in good earnest dogmatically not historically nor popularly that is to say abusiuely saith thus De vera lig cap. 55 Let not our Religion be after our owne fantasies for whatsoeuer truth may be in them yet our Religion is better farre then any thing we can fain of our own heads And a little after Let not our Religion bee the worshipping of dead men for if they haue liued religiously they be not such as that they would desire any such honour but would haue vs honour him by whom being illuminate they reioyce in that we are seruants with them of that which they haue obtained They should therefore be honoured for imitation not worshipped by religion
of the new nor yet of these two Epistles which he had written to him of purpose for to instruct him how he should walke in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God 1. Tâ—m 3 the pillar and foundation of truth Whereas I said that the Romish Church causeth an infinite number of thinges to be obserued as the lawes of God which we know by their owne histories to haue been instituted many ages after the Apostles he answereth two things 1 That the practise of certaine poynts is found haue beene in the Church a long time before them which we imagine to be the inuentors of it wherof he coteth afterwards seuen examples namely Prayer for the dead Lent Single life Confirmation the Mixture of water and wine Consecrations of Altars and the Oblation or Sacrifice of the Masse 2 That they confound not vnder the name of Apostolike Traditions all the Customes obserued in the Church but that they distinguish betweene the vniuersall and the particular And that euen among the vniuersall some onely are Apostolike to wit such as haue alwayes since the Apostles times beene vsed in the Church but the other that haue beene ordained in latter ages are Ecclesiasticall But the question is not howe they of the Romish Church distinstuish their Traditions But by what authoritie and power they cause men obserue as the lawes of God and as necessarie to saluation things that were not instituted by Christ nor his Apostles For those which they call Ecclesiasticall and which by their owne confession came not in vse nor yet into knowledge till many ages after the death of the Apostles are not lesse but much more rigorously commanded then those which they call Apostolicall It shall suffice to verifie and manifest this by one example It is generally knowne that the most solemne and most religious deuotion at this day in the Romish Church is that which they call Gods feast or Corpus Christi day to the obseruation wherof Pope Vrban the 4. attributeth remission of sins â—â—lla â—uck which is the knowledge of saluation according to the Gospel And the number of pardons granted onely to the beholders of the same is almost infinite And whether wee consider the seueritie of Prelates in commanding it and the magnificence in celebrating it or the deuotion of the people in preparing themselues thereunto and the efficacie they imagine of it We shall find that it is a thing that they pretend to be much more necessarie and more diuine than to say Requiescant in pace than to abstain from flesh and egges in Lent or any other points of the pretended Apostolike Tradition In the meane while our Bishop himselfe though he denie all cannot denie that this deuotion was instituted neer 12. huÌ„dred years after the death of the Apostles if he denie it Bellarmine wil reproue him â—acr Euch. 〈◊〉 30. who confesseth that Pope Vrban 4. is the first authour of it And no writer of the Romish Church denieth it though they agree not all touching the motiue of this institution For some wil haue that the cause of it was a certaine miracle happened in Italie of a Wafer cake that bled as a certaine Priest doubting of Transubstantiation helde it in his handes Others attribute it to a woman of the country of Liege whom the said Pope had familiarly knowne before his Popedome and who hauing giueÌ„ the Pope to vnderstande a Vision or Reuelation that she had touching the institutioÌ„ of this Feast he streight ordayned it and celebrated it first at Rome And afterwards Clement the fift made a most rigorous law concerning it confirmed euen by the Councill of Vienna Hereupon I demaund our Bishop to what vse is his distinction that he maketh betweene Apostolike and Ecclesiasticke Traditions seeing that these latter are commaunded for as much or more necessarie meritorious and diuine as the former Againe I demaund to what purpose hee taketh so much paines for to shewe that certaine things are verie auncient seeing there bee newer and latter things which haue more authoritie necessitie and efficacie than the olde And seeing it is sufficient that some Pope hath ordained a thing without enquiring of the antiquitie or noueltie of the same For the Pope now a daies attributeth as much yea much more power and authoritie to himselfe than they did that were seauen or eight hundred yeares agoe and requireth no lesse but much more obedience in that which at this day he commaundeth than in that which his predecessours commaunded a thousand yeares ago For as before the God of heauen a thousand yeares are as one day so before this God on earth one day is as a thousand years when there is question to make himself be obeyed Yea the time hath been when Popes thought they could not well establish their owne lawes vnlesse they did abolish the lawes of their predecessors that is vnlesse they displanted Antiquitie to plant in noueltie Moreouer if euerie thing that concerneth saluation as those doe that bring remission of sinnes ought to bee grounded on the worde of God either written or vnwritten as he graunteth and presupposeth throughout his Booke By what conscience could the Popes institute this newe meanes of saluation with manie other in which number are our Bishops graines If the worde of God be onelie found either in the Canonicall Scripture or in the pretended Apostolike Tradition conteyned in the writings of the ancient fathers doth it not follow that that which is found in neither of both these two Registers is by his owne confession the worde and inuention of man And therefore a vaine thing and displeasing to God by Iesus Christ his owne sentence Math. 15. But let vs heare Bellarmine on this poynt De Verb. â— l. 4. c. 9. Nothing is of the faith but onely that which God hath reuealed by the Apostles or by the Prophets or that which is euidently deduced from it For the Church is no more gouerned by newe Reuelations but persisteth in them which those men that haue beene Ministers of the word haue giuen by Tradition For therefore it is said Ephe. 2. Builded vpon the foâ—ndation of the Prophets and Apostles Wherefore all the thinges which the Church holdeth to be matters of faith haue been giuen by the Apostles and Prophets eyther by writing or by word of mouth After he addeth When the whole Church obserueth something that none could institute but onely God and which notwithstaÌ„ding is fouÌ„d no where writteÌ„ We must say it was giuen by the TraditioÌ„ of Iesus Christ himself and of his Apostles The reason is for that the vniuersall Church cannot erre not onely in that which it beleeueth but as little in that which it dooth and principally in CEREMONIE or Diuine worship Let vs conclude then by the confession of this great Rabbi who acknowledged that this ceremonie of Corpus Christi day was instituted well neere 1200. yeres after the Apostles by Pope Vrbane 4.
POSITIONS LATELY HELD BY the L. DV PERRON Bishop of Eureux against the sufficiency and perfection of the Scriptures maintaining the necessitie and authoritie of vnwritten Traditions Verie learnedly answered and confuted by D. Daniell Tillenus Professor of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Sedan VVith a defence of the sufficiency and perfection of the holy Scriptures by the same Author Faithfully translated PROV 30.5.6 Euerie word of God is pure he is a shield to those that trust in him put nothing to his word least be reproue thee and thou be found a lyer Aust de vnit Eccles cap. 3 sIn the Scriptures we are to seeke the Church by them to discusse our controuersies Chrysost in 2. Thes 2. Hom. 3. All is cleare and plaine in holy Scripture whatsoeuer is necessarie for vs is manifest Printed at London by L. S. for Nathaniell Butter 1606. TO THE READER WHen our aduersaries perceiue them selues conuinced by the Scripture they doe as they of whom Irenaeus and Tertullian speake they set vpon the Scripture it selfe accusing it of obscuritie ambiguitie and imperfection maintaining that the truth cannot therein be found by such as bee ignorant of Tradition and that the great mysteries of Faith were not by the Apostles committed to his disciples but by word of mouth and not by writing In a word all that the ancient Fathers recite of their gainsayers we see now a daies practised by ours who not content with those olde reproaches doe defame the scripture with many contumelies calling it the booke of heretikes the blacke Gospell Incke-Diuinitie leaden ruler nose of waxe Theramenes his buskin the apple of discord Sphynxes riddle a sword in a mad-mans hand and other like tearmes full of iniuries and blaspemies wherewith they defame the booke of the couenant and testament of the Sonne of God which the auncients called the mirrour of diuine grace and mans miserie the touchstone of truth the displayer of vanitie the Squire Rule and most exact ballance of all things the treasure of all vertue a Shop of remedies for all euils the sacred Anker in time of tempest a strong Armie against heretickes a safe retrait against all dangers a happie rest after all trauailes the sure and only stay in time of tryall the Pillar and foundation of our faith the most parte of which titles and the efficacie of them all is attributed by our aduersaries to their Traditions vvhich some of them dare euen preferre and oppose vnto the scripture Lind. lib. 2 panopl. c. 5 Witnesse he vvho calleth it the true Moly conseruing the Christian faith against the Enchauntments of Heretickes because Catholikes saith he vvould be soone poysoned vvith these Enchauntments he meaneth the Scriptures if they did not vse the Moly or antidote of Traditions Pigh de Eccl. Hic lib. 1. c. 4 Another hauing affirmed that the authoritie of Ecclesiasticall tradition hath more force and efficacie to assure our faith in euerie controuersie than the Scripture addeth further that if those of his side would remember that Heretickes ought not to be conuinced by the Scripture their matters vvould goe a great deale better vvith them but hauing endeuored to ouercome Luther by the Scripture for to make ostentation of their good vvitt and great knovvledge all is come to naught c. Truly it is an horrible combustion in Christendome to see the Scriptures vvhich make vs knovv Christ and become christians vsed so vnvvorthily No nation euer tooke this liberty vnto themselues to defame the bookes containing the lawes either of their beliefe or policie The bookes of the Sybills the lawes of the tvvelue Tables and other like vvritings vvere held sacred among the Romanes The Greeks and Pagans did beare all honour to the lawes of their Legislators and to their Rituall bookes as to this day the Ievves doe to their Thalmud and the Turkes to their Alcoran But among those that would be called Christians he that can cast most reproaches against the holy Scripture he that can obserue or imagine therin most imperfections vvill be esteemed more fine witted and more zealous in the faith then others yea there hath beene found one vvho of late hath dared by vvriting to maintaine publish that inuocation or calling on the name of Christ Iesus is no more commaunded in the Scripture then the calling on the Saints departed that thereby he might make the Innoâ—â—â—tion on the Author of life to depend as vvell on the Romish tradition as on the authority of the booke of life It being my chance of late to meet with the L. of Perroâ— Bishop of Eureux and to fall into some dispute vvith him concerning this matter he confesseth vnto me that the most parte of the articles in controuersie betvveene the Romish Church and ours haue no demonstratiue proofe in the Scripture As the Sacrifice of the Masse Inuocation on Saintes Prayer for the dead vvorshipping of Images Auricular confession vnction vvith the Crisme the necessitie of satisfactions the Popes Indulgences c. But he alleadged that from the time of the old Testament the Ievves did beleeue also manie things as necessarie to saluation vvhich notvvithstaÌ„ding in their times vvere not contained in the Scripture In vvhich point I found him not to agree vvith manie great Doctors of his side vvho confesse that the Scripture of the old Testament containeth all the God knevv to be expedient and sufficient for the saluation of the Israelites but that it is not so in the doctrine of the nevv testament vvhich say they should not be vvritteÌ„ on paper but preached by word of mouth engrauen in the hearts of the hearers so comitâ—â—ed vnto posteritie without writing alledging to this 〈◊〉 that which Ieremie saith cap. 31. S. Paul 2. Cor. 3. The saâ—â— L. of Perron dissenteth also from his other Doctors of vvhom some haue vvritten euen in the Councill of Trent touching some points which he maintained might be prooued by the scriâ—â—tures though they deny it namely transubstantiatioÌ„ the merâ—â—â— of workes the Popes supreamacie Purgatorie c. And being certaine that these articles haue no more ground in Scripture than the rest we may well say of them which beleeue theÌ„ that which TertulliaÌ„ said of some in his time they beleeue without the scriptures that they might beleeue against the scripture Nowe the conference hauing dured certaine daies and finding more illusion on his part than instruction I prayed him to continue it by writing that the obiections of the one and the solutions of the other appearing on paper euerie man might at leasure consider the knot of the one and the keene cutting of the other shewing him that more fruite would come forth of a permanent writing than from dazelling and vanishing words that the one remayned subiect to the touch and ballance and that in the other a subborned flatterer gaue and the ignorant hearer tooke oftentimes false Alarmes But I could neuer obtayne it at his handes who well considered that if hee should
Moyses from Moyses to Dauid from Dauid to the captiuity of Babylon and from the captiuity of Babylon to Iesus Christ who was the light it selfe For this cause the time of the Iewish Church is called the time of Infancy ours on the contrary the fulnes of time If then the Scripture of the old Testament were a sufficient light to the Iewes though it was not so cleare as ours how much more ought we to content our selues with that light which we haue by the addition of the new Testament The B. of Eureux For as touching the booke of Iob to omitte that the most part of the Iewes and Mercerus with them and the principall Caluinists doe denie that the place that is there is to bee vnderstood of the Resurrection there is no assured testimonie that the booke of Iob was extant then when the Law of Moyses was giuen contrarywise most men thinke it was written since the Transmigration of Babylon which Ezechiell seemeth to confirme saying Noah Daniell Iob. As for Daniell and the other Prophets it is well enough knowne that they were more then seauen or eight hundred yeares since D. Tillenus his answer As for the booke of Iob in which the resurrection of the body and by consequent the immortality of the soule are found in expresse tearmes whatsoeuer Du Perron saith who wrongfully attributeth vnto vs the false exposition of some Anabaptists We learne indeed of the Iewes that Moyses hauing found this booke in the countrye of Madian where his father Law was brought into Egypt to propound it vnto the Iewes as an example of patience in their seruitude But when we say that this history hapned before Moyses wrote the Law wee are grounded on good consequence drawne from the scripture which teacheth vs that after the publishing of the law it was not lawfull to offer sacrifice else where than before the Arke or Tabernacle without speciall commaundement So that if Iob had liued after the law of Moyses neither woulde he haue transgressed the Law in offering sacrifice nor God haue approoued his sacrifice The age also that the scripture giueth to Iob maketh vs beleeue that he was before Moyses â— 10. who witnesseth that those of his time liued not so long Du Perrons coniecture who will haue him to haue liued before the captiuity of Babylon is friuolous he groundeth it on this that Ezechiell nameth together Daniell and Iob â— 14. whence it would follow also that Noah should haue liued in those times for the Prophet nameth him with the other The B. of Eureux And as for our sauiour Christes argument against the Saduces it prooueth indeede the immortality of the soule and not the other points But that argument till his time was vnknowne to the Iewes who for this cause did admire the infinitenesse of his wisedome And therefore it must needs follow that they had receiued the beleefe of it for to holde it for an article of faith by another meanes than by the reading of the bookes of Moyses to wit by Tradition from Abraham Isaack Iacob and other Fathers D. Tillenus his answer He sheweth heere that hee hath as little insight into the bookes of the Euangelists as in those of Moyses he saith that this argument prooueth indeed the immortality of the soule but not the other points that is to say the Resurrection of the body And notwithstanding Saint Matthew saith in expresse tearmes that our Lord cited that place of Moyses Math. 22 Exod. 3. â— for to prooue the Resurrection of the dead and that by this onely argument he stopped his enemies mouthes who chose rather to be silent than to continue to blaspheme Jf vntill then it had beene vnknowne to the Iewes as Du Perron saith Yet that sheweth not any vnsufficiency in the scripture rather indeede the ignoraunce of the Church till those times and the negligence of those that would not vouchsafe to trie and sound the depth of the scriptures Ioh. 5 3â— as our Lord Iesus Christ did therein exhort them I know not why he findeth so great obscuritie in this argument of our Sauior For so great a Philosopher as he shold haue better perceiued therein the light of that Philosophicall maxime which saith When the whole is propounded the parts of the same are also propounded Put then that God is the god of Abraham of Isaack and of Iacob as saith Moyses Exod. 3 â— Jt followeth therefore that hee is their god both in soule and Body which are the principall parts of euery man But seeing the Saduces could not find or would not searche the Resurrection of the dead in the bookes of Moyses wherefore then did they beleeue it as little by Tradition VVhy did not our Lord and Sauiour send them thereunto VVherefore did he draw so obscure an argument as Du Perron will haue it from the Scripture if there had bene any manifest reasons in Tradition â— 22.9.29 6.29 to â—d VVherefore doth he attribute the cause of their errour to their ignoraunce of the Scripture And truely Abraham referred the brethren of the wicked rich man to keepe them out of hell not onely to the Prophets but euen to Moyses also 15.1 â—s 12.3 where they might see how God had sayde to Abraham that he would be his buckler and his exceeding great reward that in his seede should all Nations be blessed Which doctrine conteyneth the foundation of the substance of the doctrine of saluation Now put case that the aboue named points could not be found so manifest in the bookes of Moyses yet could not that conclude any thing against the sufficiency and perfection of the Scriptures which we haue in the Christian church For as god reuealed his will to the first Patriarches by word of mouth for to instruct them in his knowledge before there was any Scripture so did he continue the same manner of reuelation in Moyses time speaking to him as familiarly as a man speaketh to his friend instructing him of all maters yet neuer giuing him this liberty to ordayne any thing concerning religion of his owne authority Also Moyses very religiously conteyned himselfe within the limits of obedience not onely in the least Ceremonies but also in the publicke administration or gouernement wherein notwithstanding it seems he might haue vsurped a little more power but we see he wold determine nothing against him that had brokeÌ„ the Sabbath but caused him to be put in prison till God had declared vnto him 15.34 with what manner of punishment the Transgressor should be punished Contrariwise the Romish Church presumeth to ordayne an infinite number of things as well in Religion as in Policy which they are not onely vnable to prooue by any Scripture but which also euen theyr pretended Apostolike Traditions cannot shew in defence whereof theyr mayntainers set foorth the aucthority of the Church which they say cannot erre Now although the Church of the Iewes had Oracles visions diuine dreams Vrim and Thummim
Iewish law for to distinguish in like sort those which were corporally sprung from Abraham to discerne them from other nations the other spirituall Imperauit saith Joseph Ahae vt genitalia circūcideret voluit enim Deus vt genus eius nō permisceretur alijs gentibus And for this cause all the time they were in the wildernes those that were born were not circumcised because they were not mingled with other nations as S. Hierom Damascen do obserue Wheras Baptism hauing but one only vse which is spirituall the bare circumstances of circumcision conclude nothing that hath any necessary consequence for Baptism D. Tillenus his answer We do not reason of the bare circumstances of circumcision but of the substāce For we leaue to the children of the lewes that which it tēporally figured vnto them but seing it had also towards them a spirituall vse which is the very substance of this Sacrament wherfore shold we depriue therof the childrē of christians seing that Iesus christ came not into the world to diminish the spiritual blessings but to encrease fulfil them If du Perron thinke the intermission of Circumcision in the wildernes was not a transgression of the Law of God he is deceiued Iosh 5. ◠For after that Ioshuah had circūcised the Israelites in Gilgall he said he had taken away from them the shame of Egypt meaning therby that through contempt of gods couenant they were vnworthy thereof hauing shewed by this their negligence that their harts were still in Egypt whither they would fayne haue returned Num 1 The B. of Eureux Thirdly Circumcision left a perpetuall marke in the flesh which was alwaies a sensible token to him that had receiued it that he had beene circumcised whereas Baptisme leaueth not any sensible marke sauing in the knowledge and memorie of him that was baptized And therefore Baptisme seemeth to require an age capable of knowledge and memory D. Tillenus his answer Seing Baptisme bringeth the same spirituall fruit to the children of Christians that Circumcision brought to the children of the Iews as hath bene shewed this consideration of a corporall mark is friuolous The circumcised child can no more know nor remember how and wherefore his foreskin was cut off than the Christian child his baptisme and therfore both the one the other must be instructed when he is capable thereof In Abraham who was adopted into the couenant in a perfect age knowledge instruction and faith went before the Sacrament but in Isack born in the couenāt the Sacrament went before knowledge because according to the promis he was reputed the child of God from his mothers womb So we do not confer Baptism to the child of a Jew or a Pagā we blame the church of Rome which cōmitteth this abuse prostituting the sign of the couenant to those that are not cōprehēded therin not staying til they may enter into it by knowledge faith which is as great a mockery as to set a seale to a paper wherin there is nothing written The B. of Eureux 4. In circumcision there was but one materiall sign without the word wheras in Baptism aswell the elemēt as the word are of the essēce of the sacramēt Tolle aquā saith S. Aug nō est baptismus tolle verbū non est baptismus It seemes that he that is baptized and to whome the word of Baptisme is directed must bee capable not onely of the elementary signe but also of the word which was not requisite in Circumcision D. Tillenus his answer His fourth reason is as false as the former are vaine For if there be not the word also in Circumcision then is it not a sacrament And how should it haue bin instituted of God without the word 17.11 The promise that God addeth in the institution of it saying you shall circumcise the foreskin of your flesh and it shall be a sign of the couenant between me and you This is a word as expresly written as that which the institution of Baptisme conteineth 8.19 Baptize all nations in the name of the Father of the sonne and of the holy ghost He which sayd tolle verbum non est Baptismus take away the word it is no Baptisme sayd also Accedat verbum ad Elementum fiat Sacramentum Adde the word to the element and it becommeth a Sacrament As in Baptism the pronunciation of the sacramentall words is grounded on the institution of Iesus Christ so Circumcision was not to be administred without speaking of the vse and efficacy of the same as appeareth by the example of Ioshuah aboue alledged And doubtlesse Abraham before he circumcised his family instructed them in the doctrine thereof For see the testimony that god giueth of him 19. I know saith he that he will teache his children and his houshold to obserue the way of the Lord. 7. Moyses commandeth carefully to instruct children and he speaketh euer of the Law of god of which Circumcision was a part The B. of Eureux Fiftly though all things which had place in Circumcision should haue their corresponcy to Baptisme yet would it not bee for all that necessary that it were a correspondency of Identity but a correspondency of Analogie would suffice As the ceremonie of sowr hearbs and of the staffe they should holde in their handes in eating the Paschall Lamb is not literally accomplished in the Eucharist but onely spiritually inasmuch as we eate it with contrition and bitternesse for our faultes and as pilgrimes and passengers in this world iourneying into another life So the temporall infancie to which Circumcision was applied may haue his correspondēcy to Baptism only in the spirituall infancie by which we must become children for to bee baptized according to the saying of our Sauiour If you become not as little children you shall not enter into the kingdome of heauen And therefore to those that were already hoarie with olld age they did not sticke in the primitiue Church to giue hony and milke to eate Ad significandum infantiam saith S. Hierom. By which meanes the argument woulde hold good to conclude thus Circumcision was giuen to those which were little children of a temporall infancie therefore Baptisme may be giuen to those that are little children of a spirituall infancy that is to say that are become little children in maliciousnesse as saith saint Paul But to inferre Circumcision was giuen to little children of temporall infancy Baptisme therefore is to be conferred to those that are little children after the same manner the conclusion doth not enforce And therfore S. Augustin alledging this argument maketh account onely of it as of a coniecture D. Tillenus his answer If the temporall infancie of the Iewish children shoulde be referred onely to the spirituall infancie of Christians the reason of Iesus Christ would bee of no force when hee saith That children of a temporall infancy belong vnto him and should be brought vnto him Now we
the most auÌ„cient amoÌ„g the Latins distinguisheth in expres terms the teÌ„porall Sabbath froÌ„ the eternall sabbath 〈◊〉 lib. 4. shewing by the History of the ruine of Iericho where all the people the Priests theÌ„selues laboured 7 dayes one after another and therfore the Sabbath was ther in coÌ„prised that this commaundement was ceremonial teÌ„porall â—tat de â—tem Rab â—n tractat â—â—b c. 1. â—ractat de â—umcis c. 1 Yea the Iewes themselues as superstitious obseruers as they be of the outward ceremony of the Sabbath neuertheles do hold that in daÌ„ger of life the law of the sabbath may be brokeÌ„ And these words ar fouÌ„d in their Thalmud DaÌ„ger of life breaketh the Sabbath But euery one knoweth and confesseth that there is no danger can excuse the transgression of the morall law for the obseruation whereof the true faythfull hold their life very well bestowed Seeing theÌ„ the sabbath is takeÌ„ two wayes eyther for interior which is a rest from our euill workes an exercise meditation of the works of God or for the exteriour which consisteth in rest cessation froÌ„ the labors busines which coÌ„cern this life in which it was a figure of interior sabboth the promises or thretnings which god made to such as kept or violated his sabbaths which is our Bishops grownd are meÌ„t more of the first 〈◊〉 5.8 theÌ„ of the 2 to which notwithstaÌ„ding the Jews wer bouÌ„d as to all the other Leuiticall ceremonies froÌ„ which yoke ChristiaÌ„s are wholly freed their sabbath being interiour spiritual perpetual as the feast of passeouer or Easter which neither ought nor can euer be abolished in respect of the matter being a cessatioÌ„ froÌ„ sins a meditatioÌ„ on 〈◊〉 Gods works nor in respect of the form which is to perform this meditation with true repeÌ„taÌ„ce of all our euil works with true faith towardes God and vnfained charity towardes our neighboures nor in respect of the end which is the glorifiing of the name of God and the saluation of our soules in that greate and euerlasting sabbath which his sonnne Iesus Christ hath prepared for vs in his Kingdome Beholde the principall matter forme and end of the sabbath to the which are to be referred all the other ends touching the determining of dayes for the asseÌ„blies of the church which is in the liberty of the Church which the Scripture giueth it in expresse tearms And though the places in the Reuelation Col. 2. Reuel 1.10 1. Cor. 16. and in the first to the Corinthians wer not cleer euident ynough to shew that the Apostles haue instituted the Lords day on sunday yet cannot that preiudice vs any thing at all seeing there are other formall places that proue the liberty of the church in such things and it sufficeth that we are able to decide by the scripture the question of law or ordinance Notwithstanding so that our Bishop doe not draw him selfe backe from his own interpretation 1. Cor. 16.2 the very act or exaÌ„ple of practise wil be fownd therein He sayth if the apostle had sayd Euery maÌ„ bringeth to the church that day what he would giue that then there had beene some apparance for to conclude that the first day of the weeke was particularly appoynted to the meetings of the church in the very tyme of the Apostles Now we find in that the disciples were assembled the first day of the weeke which is as himselfe denyeth not Act 20.7 Sunday for to breake breade that is to celebrate the lords supper and that in this assembly Saint Paule made a sermon which lasted till midnight See heere then the question fouÌ„d prooued in the scripture aswell by example of practise as otherwise A speciall commaundement touching this obseruation of sunday neither the scripture giueth any seeing it testifieth that it is a thing indifferent neither can du Perron shew it by Apostolike Tradition for all his brags The Ecclesiasticall history is directly against him when it sayth Socr. lib 5. Cap 22. That the intention of the Apostles was not to make lawes or coÌ„mandements touching feast dayes or holy dayes but to be authorrs of good life true godlines Our aduersaries on the coÌ„trary do constitute their principall godlinesse and vertue in obseruation of the holy dayes by theÌ„ instituted and make a morall commaundement of the Iewish obseruation of the sabbath reiecting into the number of the ceremonialls that 〈◊〉 commaundement which forbiddeth Images though it be one of the cheefest among the morall But commaunding thus what god forbiddeth forbidding what god coÌ„mandeth they shew in what schole they haue studied Surely their maÌ„ner of reasoning is altogether conformable to the Tropick of that ould Sophister from whose instruction ensued the destruction of mankind when our first parents suffered theÌ„selues to be perswaded by this goodly argument Though god hath forbidden you to eate of this tree yet neuerthelesse you shoulde eate of it 〈◊〉 2.8 â— 3 vers The Father of lights who in these last times hath begun to chase away the darknes of Errour and superstition by the brightnes of his word vouchsafe to enlighten our harts by the light of his truth that we be not diuerted froÌ„ his ways through vayn deceyt after the TraditioÌ„s of meÌ„ but that keeping faithfully the sacred truth which he hath of trust coÌ„mitted vnto vs wee may wayte with ioy for the moste brighte and glorious comming of the sunne of righteosnnes to whom be all honor glory and praise for euermore A DEFENCE OF the Sufficiency and perfection of the holy Scripture Against the Cauillations of the Lord Du Perron Bishop of Eureux By the which hee endeuoureth to maintaine his Treatise of the vnsufficiencie and imperfection of the holy Scripture By D. Daniell Tillenus Professor of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Sedan PROV 16.25 There is a way that seemeth right vnto a man but the issues thereof are the waies of death August de vnit Eccles cap. 3. Whatsoeuer is alledged of eyther side against the other should be remoued sauing that which commeth out of the Canonicall Scriptures Printed at London by L. S. for Nathanaell Butter 1606. THE PREFACE of the Author THe Iewes who since the blindnesse wherewith God hath iustly punished their ingratitude and rebellion haue alwaies shewed themselues greedie of Traditions and out of taste with the simplicitie of the Scripture vsing it but for a basis or foundation whereon to plant their fables as the Poets doe historie recount that God being about to giue his law to their ancestors shewed vnto Moses a Masse of Saphir Lyr. in Exoâ— c. 34. made of purpose by his diuine power whereof he commanded him to hew and square out the tables in which he vouchsafed to write his law with his owne finger and because the text hath Hew thee out Tables They gather of it Exod. 34.1 that God permitted him to retaine and appropriate to himselfe
contrarie the first intention of the Apostles was to deliuer the doctrines to the Church by tradition of liuely voice word vnwritten Also he saith that the Apostles wrote but by incident or chance Fol. 35. and vpon secondary occasions Let vs see this Enthymeme or imperfect argument of the PirrhoniaÌ„ Logicke The Apostles first taught by liuely voyce Ergo they pretended not to teach by their writings which succeeded their preaching The consequence is as good as who should say One eateth first for to nourish himselfe therfore drink serueth nothing to nourishment A non distributo ad distributum c. If he make an opposition between the coÌ„mandement of the spirit of God the incideÌ„t or the occasioÌ„s which moued the Apostles to write he blasphemeth in diuinitie denying the places of scripture 2. Tim. 3.1 2. Pet. 1.20 21. where it is called inspired of God and doteth in Logick excluding the efficient and principal cause because of the instruments and means that it vseth Also the Apostle saint Iude saith Iude. 3. that there was a necessitie of writing imposed vpon him And in the Reuelation we read that saint Iohn is more than ten times commaunded to write We know that to preach and to write are things verie accordant and which were comprehended in one and the same commaundement giuen to the Apostles â—ath 28 to teach all nations which yet to this day they teach by their writings He which commaunded them the thing which is to teach commaunded also the manners of teaching which are to preach with liuely voice and to set forth the doctrine in writing both of them being fit for teaching and this latter most fit for to continue and to transferre doctrines or instructions vnto posteritie â—enaeus li 3 p 1 So Irenaeus vnderstandeth it saying The Apostles after they had preached with liuely voice the Gospell afterwards gaue it vs in the scriptures by the will of God for to be the foundation and pillar of our faith So the booke intituled Manuale CuratoruÌ„ sheweth it saying there are three sorts of preachings One is by writing as saint Paule did writing to the Romanes Corinthians c. Another is by actions so euery action of Iesus Christ is our instruction the third is by word liuely voyce The Bishop of Eureux for to shew that hee is not alone in his opinion produceth foure places of foure ancient Fathers â—hat is by â—â—ose of our â—â—de often propounded and expounded namely that they shuld be vnderstood not of matters of faith but of the order gouernance of the Church which things being of their owne nature ambulatory subiect to change according to the diuersity of the circumstances of times places persons could not or should not be written Or if they speak of some doctrine not coÌ„teined in the scripture they meane it of the formal tearms which are not there as the words trinity coessentiall sacrameÌ„t the sense matter of which notwithstanding is therin found is drawen from thence either by analogy of faith or by necessary consequence Otherwise it would follow that they had gainsaid contradicted themselues a confess fid sum mor. 72 1. sum 80 22. ere 's to wit S. Basil wheÌ„ he saith that it is a most manifest marke of infidelity a most certain signe of pride to reiect any thing of that which is writteÌ„ or to bring in any thing which is not written S. Epiphanius All things are cleare in the scripture to those which by a holy vse of reasoÌ„ wil draw nere the word of god which haue not coÌ„ceiued an operation of the diuel such as they conceiue 〈◊〉 1. Timoth. â—om that accuse the scripture of imperfection endeuoring to cast themselues into the gulfe of death S. Chrysostome maketh saint Paule speake to Timothie in this manner In stead of mee thou hast the scriptures if thou desirest to learne any thing thou maist doe it from thence Then he addeth De doctrin Christ l. 2. c. If he wrote so to Timothie who was full of the holy Ghost how much more ought wee to thinke that it is spoken of vs. It is manifest that this Father thought that the intention of the Apostles was to leaue to the Churches their writings in stead of instructions by word of mouth which they could not continue after their death Saint Augustine saith In Psal 132 Among the things which are Openly declared in the scripture are All those which containe faith and manners that is Hope and Charitie There is to quitte his foure places and in pieces of the same coyne If hee will agree them let him bestirre himselfe better than he did in the answere he giueth to the place of saint Hilarie that hath these words That which is not conteined in the booke of the law we ought not so much as to know it Hee saith that this should be vnderstood of the Apocrypha books alledged in quality of Canonical What a mockery is this Is not the sentence of S. Hilarie generall or if it be not general is it not vnapt friuolous But the reply was ready That there be many other things to be knowne besides them which are coÌ„teined in the law which conteineth not so much as the principal points viz. the immortality of the soule the resurrection of the body c. What Apocrypha Logick is this to draw an vniuersall conclusion from particular premises And when the same father saith in another place It is good that we content our selues with the things which are written can that plaister cure or so much as couer the wound that this place maketh in his vnwritten Traditions And here let the reader be aduertised once for all That al the sentences of the Fathers how generall soeuer they be what vniuersall marke soeuer be set vpon them are euer shifted off by a restraining them to some particular deed As if the Hypothesis were not decided by the Thesis a particular case by a generall Law which is to make a laughing stocke of the Fathers and to depriue them euen of common sense in making them reason so vnaptly and in occasioning their aduersaries to make vnto them so easie and iust replies To returne to Hilarie the Bishop of Eureux opposeth to the aboue said place another of the same Father taken out of his Commentarie on the second Psalme where he saith That Moses after hee had written the words of the olde Testament consigned certaine more secret mysteries to the seuentie Elders c. which place he saith I haue not read and calleth me a bad scholler in skipping ouer the beginning of the booke for to studie at the end I answere hee sheweth that he himselfe hath not read the note set vpon the margeÌ„t of this place non credo which Hilar. Paris ex â—ffici Carol. Guillar anno 1544. with the authoritie of saint Hierome thinking that these commentaries vpon the Psalmes are for
length of daies which God promiseth to the iust that his posteritie or his memorial or his seede might florish that he might not die of a sodaine violeÌ„t nor hastie death c. confirmng the exposition of the place of Moses by the authority of Horace a most worthy warraÌ„t for such as with this Poet may well be called Epicuri de grege porâ—â— swinish Epicures Now whilst he maketh his coÌ„parisons of the text of holy scripture that is of the word of god with the heatheÌ„ oracles that is the word of the diuel goeth to seek smoke in Horace for to choake the light of Moses let vs see the argument conteined in the said place There where there is a total abolishmeÌ„t there is no place for wishes of any felicity Balaam in his death wisheth the felicity that is in the death of the righteous therfore he beleeued that death is not a totall abolishment Againe whosoeuer wisheth to die like vnto theÌ„ that are singularly beloued kept of God beleeueth that there is a singular felicity happines reserued for them especially after their death wherof the vnrighteous shal not be partakers but Balaam maketh this wish knowing that God singularly loued the people of Israel therfore he beleeued that there was a felicity Happynes reserued for them euen after death To that which Du Perron saith that this felicity may be meant of a quiet death in a good age c. I answere that one may shew to a Saducie not onely by texts of the bookes of holy Scripture that he receiueth not Iob. 21. Psal e. 73 Ierem. 12. Habac. 1. but also by a great number of histories that he receiueth and by his owne experience that the life and death of the righteous is very often more miserable than that of the wicked and therefore the Iustice of God requireth that there be made an other iudgment after this life and the very heathen themselues were able by naturall discourse onely to make this conclusion which the Saduces that sometimes held the sterne of the Iewish Church and their aduocate they haue met withall in the Romish Church cannot draw from the whole body of the Law of Moses So Balaams asse without any spectacles of Tradition perceiued sooner and did more honour to the Angell than that great Doctor that false prophet that was vpon him that none might find strange if in times past many simple Israelites and at this day many simple lay men see more clearely and honour more deuoutly the holy scripture which is the true Angell or messenger by which God maketh knowne vnto vs his will than did the Sadduces in times past at this day the Bishops Popes who change the sheepe of Christ into asses in lading them with their traditions wherewith they more cruelly torment them than Balaam did his Asse striking it with his staffe and that for none other reason but because they giue place and honour to the Angell Du Perron alleadgeth Luther in fauour of his Sadducie who wisheth euen for temporall respects to die the death of Abraham therefore why might not Balaam who was not saith he more spirituall neither hee nor his Asse than your great Prophet Luther haue the like wish I answer that although the conformity with BalaaÌ„ is found much greater on our Bishops side than on Luthers whether we consider it in the manner of setting forth his owne praises as Balaam did or in the profession of being hired for to slaunder and curse the children of God and for to bewitch againe those whome Luther according to the grace receiued of God â—umb 24.19 hath vnbewitched or in giuing of pernicious counsells for all sorte of fornication there being no difference but that Balaam though against his will pronounced that which God had commaunded him and our Bishop saith and writeth quite contrarie to that which God hath commaunded him in the Scripture yea contrary to the feeling of his owne conscience yet notwithstanding the argument that he draweth from this comparison holdeth not For if Balaam desired the same that Luther desired and if Luther desired to dy like Abraham not for regarde only of temporall conditions but also in the faith of Abraham that he might be receiued into his bosome as a childe of the Father of beleeuers then it is plaine that Balaam desired expressly the immortality and saluation of his soule that is to say Paradise And it is to be feared that the Saducie here will say that his aduocate sauoreth of the asse esspecially seeing his miter which looketh so like a case for long eares And that if one day when he shall haue changed his miter into a hat and his crosier staffe into a Cardinall mule he can meete with an asse as wise and well spoken as Balaams was it would speak farre otherwise to his Cardinalls habite Out of Deuteronomie From the .5 Chapter .29 verse I reason thus that which death abolisheth wholy can not be a subiect capable of a permanent and perpetuall happynes but they that keep the commaundements of God do possesse a perpetuall happynes Therfore death doth not wholy abolish theÌ„ The Bishop of Eureux replyeth that it is not said that they shall haue theÌ„ selues this happynesse for euer but them and their posterity successiuely Now that is false the word Them is formaly expressed but the word Successiuely is not expressed For as hath beene aboue already said the same happines that is promised in general is applicable to euery particular accoÌ„plishing the coÌ„ditioÌ„ required now all obseruers of the commauÌ„demeÌ„ts of god haue promise of the perpetuall happines therfore euerie one of theÌ„ shall haue it also in particuler Would not our Bishop forge heere some such monster as that of the Libertines or of Auerrhois Of the vnderstanding vniuersall and perpetuall in it selfe but corruptible in the indiuiduals It may bee that in the conclusion hee maketh an allusion to Transubstantiation For if the accidentes subsist without their subiect Mans felicitie may also subsist for euer though the subiects of the same bee not for euer From the sixth Chapter 24. verse I conclude thus If they that feare the Lord haue promise to be euer preserued aliue It must follow that there is an Eternall life Now the Antecedent is conteined in these words of Moses The Lord hath commaunded to doe all these ordinances and to feare the Lord our God that it may goe euer well with vs and that hee may preserue vs aliue as at this present Therefore c. From the ninth Chapter 27. verse of the forme of praier vsed by Moses making intercession for the people and praying God that hee would remember his seruants Abraham Isaacke and Iacob wee may reason thus That which is not at al cannot haue any efficacie the Patriarches Abraham Isaacke and Iacob long time after their death haue some efficacie namely to appease God by the remembrance of his couenant contracted with them Therefore death
so much as one word of Moses fall to ground Or that the knowledge of these distinctions and differences was not a thing so necessarie as the Bishoppe of Eureux would haue it If account is to bee made of this Epistle of Ignatius which wee holde supposed how commeth it to passe that so many high mysteries are so soone fallen to the ground and buried in the graue of forgetfulnesse as appeareth by the diuersity of opinions that the Greek and Latine Doctours haue vpon this question so that some of them deny flatly that the knowledge thereof can be attained to as being a thing exceeding both speech and vnderstanding Isid Pelus l. 2. ep 99. And what new reuelation hath beene shewed to Thomas Aquinas for to make these sharings and diuisions among the Angels when he disposeth angels for to gouerne particular men Archangels for the Prouinces Principalities for whole mankinde the Vertues for the celestiall bodies the Powers for to commaund wicked Spirits the Dominations for to haue care of the good Spirits Is it because he is called the Angelicall Doctour that hee was endowed with this Angelicall knowledge But why was the vniuersall Church depriued of it in the time of Saint Augustine and of so many other good Fathers What new Paracletus or comforter had reserued the manifestation of these secrets to the Schoolmen Now let vs see a little our Bishopps angelicall Logicke Saint Paul speaking of Angells nameth Principalities Powers Vertues Dominations Thrones therfore he setteth downe these distinctions by the orders degrees as did the Doctors of the Romish Church which doctrine the Iewes knew not before but by the tradition of the Sinagogue Eph 2.11.12 Col. 1.21 Againe S. Paul writing to the Ephesians Colossians who a little before had beene Heathen strangers from the coÌ„mon wealth of Israell and from the promises of the Testament being without Hope and without God in the world maketh mention of these names Therefore it was a doctrine vvhich was manifestly knowne vnto them and by consequent they knew it either by an absolute or subsidiarie Tradition Is it not happily from one of these twoe Traditions that Plato and Aristotle held also their Doctrine of the Genii and Intelligences â—ol 6 5. Gen. 2.1 He mocketh that I gather the creation of Angells from the place of Moses where he saith That the heauens and the earth were finished and all their hoste For that this hoste saith he signifieth nothing else in Moses but the Sun and the Moone with the Starres at least wise it can not be gathered by the litterall text of Moses his ArgumeÌ„t is this Deut. 4. Moses in a certaine place vnderstandeth by the army or hoste of heauen nothing else but the Sun and Moone with the starres Therfore he neuer meaneth any thing else by it throughout all his writings To omit that place of Genesis where the Angells that met Iacob at his returne from Mesopotamia Gen 32.2 are called the camp that is to say the Armie of God though Moses vse another tearme I will onely demauÌ„d him If this interpretatioÌ„ of the word hoste or army can not be had but by Tradition why the Cardinall Baronius â—nnal Eccles â—om 1. an Christ 60. who is farre nearer that spring than the Bishop of Eureux chooseth rather to take it out of the Scripture wheÌ„ speaking of the Idolatrie of the Iewes that worshiped the Angells and the starres which they thought to haue life note their goodly Platonicall not Propheticall Tradition he saith that Properly the scripture calleth Angells the Hoste of Heauen citing three places for this purpose whereof one is taken out of Moses himselfe Deut 17. I alleadged a place of Irenaeus that represseth the vaine curiositie of the Gnosticks who without any light of the Scripture rashly intrude theÌ„selues into matters that they haue not seene as the Apostle saith handling this pointe of Angells and condemning the superstition at this day crept into Tradition of seruing them religiously our Bishop exclaymeth thereupon what euening visions what dreames what imaginations and fantasies are these shewing that he hath his head so full of them that as Irenaeus saith of his Gnosticks all the Ellebore in the world would not suffice to purge him from it â—ib 2. c. 54. And it is no wonder if so many smoaky darke and subtill imaginations hinder him from seeing my conclusion which tendeth not in any fashion whatsoeuer to abolish the names and distinctions of Angells as he conceiteth but to shew first of all that Irenaeus prooued the creation of Angells by the scripture when he saith We will shew them by the scriptures that all these things as well visible as inuisible were created of God Also We forsake not Moses and the other Prophets Lib. 2. c 5 who preached the truth for to beleeue such as say nothing soundly but dote c. Whence is euident that he comprehendeth the writings of Moses vnder the Scriptures by which is shewed the creation of Angells Secondly to coÌ„demne the audacious boldnes of this pretended Dionysius Areopagita and the Schoolemen who presume to know all these mysteries vndertake to vnfold them and by vertue not of an Apostolicke Tradition but of a Maxime of naturall Philosophie determine that it is impossible that there be two Angells onely of one kinde and such is the Tradition of that prince of the Schoolemen Thomas Aquinas 1. P. qu. 5â— Ar. 4. So that we must haue many more names for them than the Tradition of the Synagogue or Saint Paul euer knew for to furnish specificall differences to so many Millions of these blessed Spirits which staÌ„d before the throne of the Lord for to execute his coÌ„maundements And wheÌ„ Irenaeus saith to the Gnosticks Let them declare vnto vs the nuÌ„ber of the Angells the order of the Archangells let them shew vnto vs the Sacraments of the thrones let them teach vs the diuersities of the Dominations Principalities powers and vertues But they can not so much as tell it There is no man that hath common sense L. 2. c. 47. but will conclude thence that Irenaeus propounded these things as most difficulte and secret since that in another place he proposeth the ouerflowing of Nilus Birds changing of countreys in springtime and in haruest the ebbing and flowing of the sea rayne snow thunder and other meteors as things hid from vs and of which saith he we may well babble but God onely who made them is true Let vs add a word or two of euill Spirits That the Serpent that spake to Eua was but an Instrument of a wicked spirit may be shewed a Sadducie by the effects which cannot proceede from a creeping thing nor from any other beast though it should go vpright like a rocke as the Serpent did before the seducing of Eue according to the ordinarie glose which conteyneth as well the literall expositions as the mysticall Traditions neyther needed Du Perron to
Inuocation on saintes departed By the Cherubins of the mercie feate worshipping of Images By the commandent made to the Leuites that they should be holy the single life of Priesstes c. These are doctrines of the father of lyes to perswade the world that no truth at lest wise no light euidence of truth touching the fundamentall point of our saluation can be found in the scripture And that all the errors all the horrors that Diuert vs from saluation may be very well proued by the scripture Let vs see our Bishoppes reasons why the points necessarie to saluation are not found so openly set downe in the scrpture that manifest and necessarie consequences may bee drawne from it without the helpe of Tradition They are two the first is For to conteine our mindes within the bounds of humilitie the second to bind the sheepe to the pastours with a straiter bond of Charitie by the necessitie of instruction The booke of the holy Ghost attributed to saint Basile yet falsely at least wise that part of it whence our aduersaries take their most fauourable testimonies conteyneth another reason which our Bishoppe whether for shame or because he will haue his Tradition by himselfe found not fit to adde It hath thus That the Apostles and fathers would by these secrets of silence preserue in mysteries their authoritie For what is diuulged to the eares of the people is not mysterie for this cause certaine thinges were deliuered by Tradition without writing least the knowledge of the Doctrines or opinions should come in cotenmpt among the people by reason of custome So that the doctrines of the Trinitie the incarnation of Iesus Christ of our Election Vocation Iustification Sanctification Glorification and many other Articles shall be no more mysteries because they are conteyned in the scripture preached to the people and committed to the eares of euerie one but by this reckoning must be no more preached to the people praying to saints departed worshipping of images the Popes supremacie the sacrifice of the Masse Purgatorie Indulgences or Pardons many other things not conteined in the scripture and yet notwithstanding almost nothing else preached yea more recoÌ„mended beaten into the eares of the people than the things that are written Would to God this reason were perswasiue inough for to make to be hid and buried in the depth of an euerlasting silence or to set ouer and confine to the eares onely of the Popes clergy all these goodly mysteries true markes of the Louers of the woman in whose forehead is written Mysteries â—eue 17.5 that they spoyle not the true clergie that is the inheritance of Iesus Christ The Bishop of Eureux his reasons seem better in shew but the sustaÌ„ce of them is much worse For our part wee beleeue that the reading of the Scripture maketh euery true Christian humble as wel by the things cleerly set down as by theÌ„ he cannot so wel vnderstand that hee might bee stirred vp to begge vnderstanding and light of the Father of lights as Dauid did though hee were a great Prophet â—â—al 119 o◠〈◊〉 vvhere Now if God would not that all that is necessarie for vs should be written or that it should not bee clearely written for to conteine as saith Du Perron Mens mindes within the bounds of humilitie what followeth els but that they that content not themselues with this measure of reuelation cannot also conteine themselues within the bounds of humilitie and therfore become proud invent whatsoeuer they list for to establish their Lordshippe and rule ouer the Lords flock employing their ordinances and Traditions for to binde and torture the consciences as Tyrants vse prisons gybets to torment the bodies of men And if any Chistian thinke to imitate that praise-worthy example of the men of Berea who durst euen examine the preachings of S. Paule by the Scripture Act. 17.11 they cry out straight both against him and the Scripture the one is called a giddie headed foole and a heretick the other vnsufficient and imperfect and that for no other reason but because it is most sufficient and perfect to conuince and rebuke their imperfections 2. Tim. 3 16 17. and to make vs perfectly instructed vnto euery good worke I said in my former answer that though the aboue-saide points should not be found so cleare in the writings of Moses yet that would conclude nothing against the sufficiency of the Scripture which we haue in the Christian Church for that God speaking familiarly to Moses instructed him alwaies on euery occurrence without euer giuing him libertie or authoritie to ordaine of matters of Religion Fol. 57. Our Bishop mocketh at it adding that Iesus Christ spake as familiarly to God And the Apostles in like sort of whome Christ saith I call you no more seruants I call you from hence forth my friends c. Let vs see what reason he hath to mock at mine which is this When the Church hath teachers and guiders that cannot erre in their doctrine immediately receiued from God and that can familiarly inquire of him on euery occurrence and occasion for to instruct themselues and their flockes then it may more easily bee without Doctrine written But in the times of the Patriarches of Moses and the Prophets immediately sent of GOD the condition of the Church was such Therefore it might the more easily be without Doctrine written c. What hurt doth his Instance taken from the Apostles to this argument what good doth it doe him vnlesse it be for to shew either his fondnesse in as much as it confirmeth my argument for there is the same reason of the Apostles as of the Prophets Or his impudencie if he meane that the Christian Church after the death of the Apostles is euer furnished with as excellent men as they were speaking as familiarly vnto God as they did taking counsell immediatly from him on all occasions and occurrences as they did And without doubt thus he would haue his meaning to be taken though shame hinder him froÌ„ expressing it more openly It is also the stile of the Church or Court of Rome namely That the Pope as S. Peters successor representeth his person yea the person of Iesus Christ himself possesseth his Spirit distributeth it as it pleaseth him yea hee is called God himselfe witnesse the Canon Satis euidenter And these goodly verses set on the forefront of the portal or gate of Sixtus the forth â—ist 96. Oraculo vocis mundi moderaris habenas Et merito in terris crederis esse Deus And seeing our Bishoppe hath spoken as familiarly to this God on earth as in old time Moses did to the God of heauen and the Apostles of Iesus Christ who would not receiue the graines gold and siluer pictures which were giuen him on mount Vatican giuen with greater efficacie than the tables of the Law giuen to Moses on Mount Sina I said also Fol. 57. that Moses
neuer tooke the liberty to ordaine any thing of his owne head not so much as in policie or ciuil gouernement He answereth that this is false obiecting vnto me the historie of Iethro will say that Moses practised the counsell that Iethro gaue him touching the establishmeÌ„t of Iudges ouer the people of Israell without any approbation from God which is one of the boldest falshoodes can bee made and such as hee is wont falsly to obiect vnto others For to conuince it do but see the text where the common latine translation saith If thou doe this thing thou shalt fulfil the commaundement of God Exod. 18 23 and the Hebrew If thou dost this thing and if God so commaund thee thou maist bee able to endure Now we grant that if we had alwaies such persons as the Apostles were or as Moses and the Prophets vnder the Lawe were for to instruct vs in euery point and not such as may leade millions of soules together into hell Dist 4â— si Papa as the Pope doth and may doe by vertue of his owne lawes We should not haue so much occasion to keepe our selues so strictly tyed to the Scripture though notwithstanding Act. 17 the first Christians examined the preaching of the Apostles by the Scripture of the old Testament by which themselues also prooued it though they had an immediate calling an infallible certainty and an incomparable authority but these gifts of God beeing but for a time for the beginnings and foundation of the Christian Church and we being aduertised by the Holy Ghost of the comming of wolues of false Prophets that shal rise vp in the middest of the Church We conclude that it is most necessary to keepe vs to their writings and that it is more dangerous to say Act. 20. â— 30. 1 Pet. 2. that they haue not written whatsoeuer is necessarie for vs than to say that they haue not taught all by word of mouth to euery particular Church for returning often to visite them that which they had not said at one time they might adde and supply it at another for which there would be no more any remedie after their death if wee found not in their writings that which is necessarie for our saluation And therefore though the points aboue prooued by Moses were not conteined in his writings yea though Moses had written nothing at all yet could not that any thing at all helpe the Bishop of Eureux his cause vnlesse hee shew first that the traditions of the Romish Church are naturally engrauen in the hearts of men as the immortalitie of the soule And secoÌ„dly that in al the Christian Church spread throughout all the nations of the world god had established the same form touching the oeconomie and gouernment and the dispensation of his mysteries as was established among this people only conducted by Moses afterwards taught by the Prophets extraordinarily raised vp immediately sent during the ordinary ministery of the Leuitical Priesthood And therfore since that the curate of euery particular Church that acknowledgeth the Pope 〈◊〉 ver 3 â— in the 〈◊〉 representeth the catholick Church as say the Doctours of the Romish Church it is to be beleeued that the grossest beast so that he beare the marke of the beast of Rome is holden in like estimation indued with the same gifts as was Moses Isaiah S. Paule For saith the B. of Eureux the Church is so assisted with the spirit of God according to the promises of Christ her spouse that whether it bee for grace or for interpretation of this word he neuer suffereth it to fal into errour And therupon he reproacheth me that I vnderstand not the meaning of this proposition The Church cannot err in matters of Saluation Let the Christian Reader iudge how I vnderstand it If we take this word Church for the vniuersall Church the bodie of Christ wherof part is tryuÌ„phant in heauen part stil militant on earth both being vnited to their head by the power of his spirit that proposition is most true If on the contrarie the Church be taken but for that part which is scattered on earth I say it is most false For that which is subiect to infirmitie to imperfection to errour and ignorance in euery one of his parts cannot make a whole which is perfect But there is not a man that sinneth not 〈◊〉 â—8 46. â—2 〈◊〉 13.9 â—4 7. saith Salomon and Saint Iames all of vs knowe but in part and Prophesie but in part Neither is there any one member which hath not neede to take euery day groweth according to the measure of the gift of Christ So that all the promises of the Spouse to the Church are to bee vnderstoode of that which hee daily worketh and encreaseth in his not of that which is alreadie perfected and finished And Du Perrons conclusion is no lesse false and vnapt than this GOD saith hee hath promised vs the beginning the progresse and the end therefore wee haue the end at the same instant as we haue the beginning The titles of perfection which are some times attributed to the children of GOD setteth before them rather the marke whereat they should ayme than any waies imprinteth in them an opinion of hauing already attained it So we cal a building a House thogh it be not yet finished If this perfection were wholly attained to there would remaine no more any thing to be builded and the power of God should not bee made perfect in our weaknes Iesus Christ washeth and cleanseth his Church euery day but it shall not be wholy cleane without spot or wrinkle till the day of the Lambes mariage when the Bridegrome shall bring his Spouse into his celestiall chamber Wee acknowledge the perpetuall assistance of Gods Spirit to his Church which is the soule of the Church and giueth spirituall life thereunto But life is one thing and perfect health without any infirmity is another thing It is one thing to haue a natural operation which is euer done after a fashion in which there is some necessitie an other thing to haue a-voluntarie operation which is done at discretion with liberty the holy Ghost assisteth the Church so far forth as to giue it life which is a thing wholy necessary for the accoÌ„plishmeÌ„t of the promises of her husband Christ for if the Spirit did in this sort faile the Church the Church would also faile Iesus Christ but this life this light of grace doth not abolish that of nature which is in euery meÌ„ber of the Church which maketh it often to faint to faile to fall though neuer vtterly to fall away The holy Ghost gouerneth it as well as reason gouerneth the will in man But as the will doth often swarue froÌ„ reason yet without loosing it wholy or altogither 1. Tim. 3.1 so the Church swarueth often from the spirit which notwithstanding doth not wholy forsake it for all that The Church remaineth also
the pillar and ground of truth not for the reason Du Perron alleadgeth because euery one resting on the iudgment of it can not be deceiued in faith nor hazard his Saluation he might say more briefly and more popularly In beleeuing in the faith of his Curate But for as much as the word of God contayned in the holy Scripture is set forth in the true Church as in old time the lawes were fastned to pillars that they might not be troden vnder feete and that they might be exposed to the view of euery man the Church which is the Pallace of our lord Iesus Christ is as Salamon was all of pillars euery particular Orthodoxall or right-beleuing Church is a pillar of that Palace whereon hangeth the table contayning the diuine trueth But as much resemblance is betweene this palace of our spirituall Salomon and the Popes on his Vatican as is betweene the crowne of Thornes and his triple Crowne of Gold betweene the Bible and his decretalls Now let the Bishop of Eureux tell me how these two propositions doe agree the church neuer erreth and that of the Schoolmen and Canonists In the day when our Lord suffered Faith remained onely in the virgin Marie which proposition â—ean de la â—urbruslèe Iohn Turbrusley maintayneth to be so necessarie that to hold the contrary is to goe against the faith of the vniuersall Church where was then this Church that cannot erre then I say when all the Apostles were aliue whom Christ our Lord reproacheth of incredulitie could the person onely of the blessed virgine make the Church â—ark 16.14 â—â—llar de Ecâ—â—es mil. l. 3. â—7 Bellarmine denieth it because saith hee The Church is the people and kingdome of God Now haue wee hitherto shewed the sufficiencie and perfection of the scripture in regard of the instances proposed by the Bishoppe of Eureux as things absolutely necessarie As for the others that he afterwards alleadgeth it is to bee noted First that they concerne rather historie than doctrine whereof is question and which hee of purpose confoundeth with historie for to bleaze the eies of the simple For hee knoweth verie well that wee willingly confesse that there is historicall Traditions and himselfe confesseth that the ordinance of these thing is not absolutely vnexcusable â—ol 80 That is to say it is not necessarie for all to knowe them Secondly it is to bee remembred that heere againe as is aboue saide he confoundeth with like malice these two tearmes truth and Authority dissembling that euery trueth is not of like Authority Otherwise it would follow that al prophane histories truly written are as authenticall and canonicall as the histories of the Bible And therefore that which the Apostles alleadged without the Scripture is most true but obtayned not Canonicall authority till after it was written by them and as touching that from which they draw arguments I answere that they doe it because it was agreed of the trueth of those particulars wheÌ„ce they draw them as at this day we reason oftentimes by things which not onely the Fathers but also prophane and heathen authors haue left in writing when it is agreed that they containe trueth yet can not any inferre from thence that they haue equall authority to the word of God Thirdly I say that among the instances he produceth there be some false and inuented and of this number is all the first namely the Institution of Exorcists that no text of the new Testament sheweth that it was an order instituted of God vnder the old Testament yea though it were graunted him that there were Exorcists at the time that Iesus Christ came into the world for our Sauiour Christs wordes conteine nothing else but a confutation of the opinion of the Pharises not a declaration of his owne touching Exorcists whether they were ordayned of God or of theÌ„selues as were those of whome S. Luke maketh meÌ„tion If the B. of Eureux graÌ„teth not that both of theÌ„ were of the same order Act 19 to what purpose doth he alleagde Caluin for to make me confesse it And if he graunt that they were how can he deny but that the one were deceiuers as well as the others Whence will he shew that the sonns of Sceua were rather of the order of the ancient pretended Exorcists than of the Apes that would counterfeit the miracles of the Apostles Let vs se the Logicke of our Carneades The sonnes of Sceua after the death of Christ were not true Exorcists Ergo before Christs death there was an order of the true Exorcists grounded on diuine right See how from a negation he draweth an affirmation But if we receiue the exposition of Saint Chrysostome which he should accept of as a subsidiary Tradition This Instance taken from the order of Exorcists shall be yet more ridiculous for he presupposeth as a thing confessed of all that our Sauiour Christ speaking of Exorcists meaneth onely his Apostles and disciples Fol. 81. which saith he had already driuen out Diuells by the power they had receiued of their Maister the Pharises not hauing blamed them for it For their malice was but to the person not to the thing Therefore that he might shew that what they said or thought against him proceeded but of meere enuie he told them of the Apostles Now it is for our Bishoppe to conclude that the Apostles were already in the world in quality of ordinary Exorcists when Christ came from whome consequently they receiued not extraordinarily this power to cast out vncleane Spirits He saith the hand of the Synagogue vvas become vvithered and impotent in vvorking miracles â—ol 85. after our Sauiour Christs death and that for this cause the sonns of Sceua had no successe But wherefore then had that Eleazer of whome Iosephus speaketh such good successe who long after Christs death in the presence of Vespasian his childreÌ„ all the Romane Army â—â—seph Anâ—â—g lib. 8. c. 2. dispossessed so sufficiently one that had a Diuell the roote to which Iosephus attributeth this vertue and which he saith was taught by Salomon was it become withered as well as the hand of the Synagogue of purpose that it might budd againe like Aarons rodd in the hands of that infidell did the name Tetragrammaton by which Epiphanius saith 〈◊〉 30. one Ioseph not beleeuing yet in Christ cast out a diuell loose then it vertue or did the sons of Sceua eclipse some letter of it Now it is manifest by this place of Iosephus and by that which is written in another place what was the foundation and institution of this order of Exorcists â—oh de bel 〈◊〉 l. 7. c. 25 among the Iewes namely Magicke and enchantments which our Bishop would make vs receiue for the pure word of God secretly reuealed to the Patriarches and Prophets I said that it is not found that they which in the beginning of the Christian Church had the gift of casting out diuels vsed certaine
mysticall formes but that they simplie coÌ„iured the Energumeni or possessed in the name of god c. whence we might gather that they which among the Iewes had this gift brought thereunto no other mystery than the calling on the name of the God of AbrahaÌ„ of Isaacke and of Iacob Hereupon he termeth me a Demoniak possessed with the euil spirit of ignorance and presumption Fol 89 for not hauing read the 7. Canon of the 4. Council of Carthage which maketh mention of a booke wherin Exorcismes were written Let vs leaue to him the euill spirit of knowledge which so swelleth him that it is to be feared it will burst him in the end And let vs see his argument The Councill of Carthage holden about the yeare of grace 400. maketh mention of a booke conteyning Exorcismes Ergo Annal. Eccle. Tom. 5. ad an Chr. 398. in the beginning of the Christian Church there were certaine prescript formes for to exorcise Therefore the beginning of the Christian Church should be put 400. yeares after the beginning of the Christian Church or at the least 398. years according to the computation of Baronius himselfe For although mention be made of exorcists before that yet the forme which they vsed in their Exorcismes is no where declared no Annot in Tert lib de Bapt. not in the acts of the said Councill of Carthage and Pamelius can alledge for it nothing more auncient than the booke called Ordo Romanus and the Sacramentarie of Saint Gregorie Iustin Mar. in Tryph. My affirmation was grounded on the testimonie of Iustine Martyr 230. yeares auncienter than that councill his words are these By the name of this same Sonne of God the first borne of euerie creature c. all diuels are adiured and subiected And if yee Iewes adiure them by whatsoeuer name of your Kings or Patriarches or Prophets no spirit will obey you But if any man among you adiure By the God of Abraham the God of Isaacke and the God of Iacob for that same is Christ it may bee they would bee subiected But now your exorcists vse in their adiurations a certaine art as the Pagans and doe vse perfumes and ligatures c. Beholde Iustine who knew no other forme which was in vse among the Iewes than the calling on the GOD of Abraham of Isaacke and of Iacob and no wise restrayneth this gift to a certaine order among the Iewes teaching vs also in what estimation we should haue those that vse magicall and heathenish enchauntments to wit not of order nor ordinance diuine but diuelish Also wee know that Iesus Christ in the beginning of the Christian Church restrained not this gift to a certaine order but promised and gaue it indifferently to the faithfull and euen a long time after Tertullian maketh mention of certaine soldiers Mar. 16.17 Do Coro mil. c. 11 vide Apolog ca 32. In Mat hom 35 that had it The Bishoppe of Eureux who maintaineth that the sonnes of Sceua were of the Iewish order of exorcistes hath found this fantasie in Origen who affirming that it is not lawfull for Christians according to the Gospell to sweare thence concludeth that therefore it is no more lawfull to adiure any and by consequence holdeth that these Exorcistes were Iewes But his ground being false the conclusion that he buildeth vpon it namely that this was an order among the Iewes Annal. Eccle. Tom 1 ad an Chr. 56 is false also and condemned as such by Cardinall Baronius But our Bishop maketh vse of euerie thing so that he thinke it fit to demolish any part of the Lords worke that is of the scripture indited by his spirit His second instance is taken from the miracle of the poole set downe by Saint Iohn Hee saith That it was a needfull thing to know Iohn 5 whether it was not a sleight of Sathan for to inuite men to superstition for to intice them to make Pilgrimages for to perswade them to put their confidence therein and to seeke remedies at Creatures of their infirmities I answere that the Scripture warranted from all these inconueniences them that followed it as the light vnto their feete For it teacheth how superstition is auoyded namely in putting confidence in one onely GOD and in transferring nothing to the creature of that which belongeth to the Creator who by his law written had ordained to the Iewes three voyages yearely for to appeare before him at Ierusalem with offerings See heere their pilgrimages grounded on scripture Exod. 34 23. Deut. 16. â— If the Angell who by the troubling of the water therein manifested this power of healing euerie infirmitie had demaunded sacrifices for to be honoured with them in Gods stead no faithful being instructed in the law wold haue had recourse to this remedy how excelleÌ„t soeuer it were or how great need soeuer he had had As at this day they Deut. 13 that haue learned by the scripture that onely God is to be inuoked or called vpon doe make no voyages or pilgrimages to the places where the Saintes departed are called vpon what maracle so euer be done there true or false seeing an other besides God is there inuoked which was not done at the Poole For to make this instance of force for his purpose it behooued him to shew that such as went downe into it called vpon the Angell or on some Patriarch or Prophet that they confessed themselues first after the Romish manner made the vow of nine dayes saide a certaine number of Aue Maries that they did weare beads told their blessed graines that they beheld their Agnus Dei kissed crosses and crucifixes and caried candles to the Image of the Angell as our ignorant superstitious people doe to Saint Michaell and by the same meanes to the diuell that is at his feete Saint Augustine expounding this miracle hath not recourse In Iohan tract 17. neyther sendeth any to Tradition but vnto the Lord who giueth vnderstanding protesting that he would speake of it as he could and assuring himselfe that he by whose aide he did what he could would supply in his auditors that which he could not herevpon he handleth all this historie allegorically prouing his expositions by texts and consequences of scripture and not deriuing any thing at all from the pretended Tradition Saint Cyrill saith Iohan. 1.2 5. that the Angels went downe inâ—o it onely on the day of the Pentecost for to trouble the water which hee likewise draweth from the scripture without mention of any Tradition his words are these The power of this healing was limited onely to one man which signified that the profit of the law was bounded only to the people of the Iewes without passing any further For the commaundements of the Lawe shewed by Angels on mount Sinai and afterward exhibited on the day of Penetcost ordained for that ende were not extended but from Dan to Beer-sheba If this circumstance of time to wit of the day
reckoning and by the testimony of the same warrant the Bishop bringeth all the curses and execrations which the Apostle S. Iude pronounceth are to fall vpon their heads that blaspheme the Scripture of vnsufficiencie and imperfection that is which blaspheme the old and new Testament Let him see if his Mytre be of proofe against these Apostolical fulminatioÌ„s which are of another manner of temper than those of his Iupiter Vatican For to diuert himself from these yrksome thoughts he gathereth certaine flowers out of Luthers booke against king Henry the eight and thinketh to couer therwith al the indignitie out-rage that euer the most impudent Pope or Monke did to Prince or Emperour either to tread them vnder-feet as was the Emperour Frederick the first Or to poison them as was the Emperour Henry the seuenth Or to chaine them and tye them like Dogges vnder their tables as a Duke of Venice was vsed Or to cannonize for saints the Parricides or murtherers of them 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 and â—â—â—le treâ—â—â—ose helâ—â—custs â—ere â—o exeâ— as of late were the murtherers of Henry the third king of France and William of Nassaw Prince of Orange Or to stirre vp dayly against them newe Parricides and murtherers as they often did against the late Queene of blessed memorie Elizabeth which the most shameles calumniator cannot reproach Luther so much as to haue thought of Or to raise and inuent new leagues and seditions for to ouer-flow all Christendome with blood c. Of all these goodly practises of the Apostolike tradition not of Saint Iude the seruant of Christ but of Iudas the betrayer of Christ the Byshop of Eureux esteemeth that the Church of Rome is not tyed to yeelde an accompt For saith he it is not to you fol. 132. that shee is to answere for her actions in this regard O insoluble Argument and ineuitable demonstration worthy the expected hatte which such an Aduocate hath reason to demaund that it may blush for him There remaineth the last Instance taken out of the same Epistle touching the Prophecie of Henoch wherof mentioÌ„ hath been made aboue the reason declared why the Apostle proueth not by scripture the point in question namely because they whom he discribeth in this Epistle as manifest contemners of Iesus Christ would haue made as little accompt of the Scripture so that it was more to purpose to alleadge a judgement described witnessed eueÌ„ by the heatheÌ„ for these profane persons hauing some remnant of shame left in them could not haue denied and reiected that which was confessed and acknowledged as well by strangers as by them of the Church Now it hath been often sayde vnto him that none of his Instances is receiuable for to shew the imperfection of the Scripture vnles he bring forth Instances vpon some points necessarie to saluation whereof is not found any proofe in the Scripture It hath beene shewed him aboue that this Article of the vniuersall judgement is found in Moses and by measure as the light of the world approched and drew neere the doctrine as well of this Article as of all others hath beene more cleerely expressed though the contentious neuer see this light A blind-man seeth as little the light and brightnes of the Sunne at noone-day as that of the morning star It is not for the coÌ„tentious but against theÌ„ that the Scripture is writteÌ„ those spirits that seeke issue of all the proofes of the same shall in the end finde entrance into hell To such Spirits we say that which the Scripture teacheth If any lust to be contentions we haue no such custom 〈◊〉 11.16 â—39 neither the churches of God But at least saith he though there shold be nothing like to it expressed in the Scripture or that the books that contained somthing of it were lost as diuers other writings of the Prophets yet this Oracle would not haue lost her authoritie nor ceased to be the word of God and Doctrine worthy of faith In very truth if all the Scripture were lost it were that which such as he would wish more then any thing in the world For then they would make vs beleeue goodly matters seeing that notwithstanding this light of the Scripture more resplendent now then it hath beene these many ages before they wold without blushing perswade vs that their graines Pictures and other like fopperies are meanes for to attaine to saluation are helps of the blood of Iesus Christ as wel as their Traditions are supplies of the Scripture But if Bellarmine speaking of what was to be doone â—oncil lib. 〈◊〉 for the election of a Pope if in case all the Cardinalls should perish at once affirmeth that it is vnlikely euer to happen Truely wee haue more reason to hope and firmely to beleeue that Iesus Christ who as the Bridegroome hath ioyned to himselfe the Church with an indessoluble band will preserue for her also the contract of mariage the Indenture of the Couenant more necessarie to the Church than the Cardinals to the conclaue And so as that Antichrist with all his wiles endeuours shall neuer be able to abolish it no more than could in times past his predecessor or his figure King Antiochus The Byshoppe of Eureux by this hypothesis doth hee not confesse that if the Church which ought to bee the gardian of the Scriptures should loose them it should erre greatly And if Saint Iohn pronounceth so fearefull a curse against those that adde thereunto or dimish there-from what should become of them who hauing charge to keepe it should let it wholy be lost and should imagine neuertherlesse that they cannot erre But when all the rest should bee lost by what speciall priuiledge should this Epistle of Saint Iude be saued which by reason of the shortnesse of it might bee lost with the first As for the writings of the Prophets that haue beene lost when hee hath answered the place of Saint Augustine aboue alleadged we shall see what shall bee meet to reply thereto Aug. de ciâ— Dei l. 18. In the meane while hee persisteth in his trifling impertinences to alleadge vnto vs still the authoritie of our Doctors who doe not alwayes agree in the exposition of all places though they alwayes agree in the doctrine of all the pointes of Saluation That were good if wee held them in the same degree as they of his Church doe their Popes all whose Expositions notwithstanding they doe not alwayes receiue without exception but are constrained to shift them off by this distinction That they speake sometimes as Popes and sometimes as Doctours and that in the latter qualitie they may be deceiued in doctrine That is to say it is then they deceiue themselues most when they assay to performe some part of their Office that is to teach yea were they Apostles Nowe I demaund of our Byshop whether hee had rather condemne Cardinall Bellarmine who holdeth with Saint Hierome Saint Augustine and all Antiquitie
which the Lord would not tel then to his Disciples because they could not beare it as for example if I sayd that this which we reade in the beginning of this Gospell In the beginning was the word and the worde was God c. Because this was written afterwardes and is not recorded that our Lord said iâ— whilest he was here in the flâ—sh but one of his Apostles wrote it Christ and his Spirit reuealing it vnto hâ—m is of the number of those things which the Lord would not say then because that the Disciples could not beare them who would heare me saying that so rashly Thus you see Saint Augustine protesteth that hee should incurre the fault of rashnesse if he affirmed the thing which the Bishop of Eureux mainteyneth that he affirmeth Which is made manifest by these wordes which this holy Father addeth in the same place a little after Wherefore my welbeloued thinke not to heare of me the things which the Lord would not then tell his Disciples And in the Treatise following hee vnfoldeth at large this worde beare shewing how one and the same thing pronounced before one and the same auditorie at one same time is well vnderstoode of some and ill of others yea is vnderstood of some and of others not because he that vnderstandeth amisse vnderstandeth not at all and of them that vnderstand it some vnderstand it lesse some more and no man so well as the Angels 〈◊〉 13.9 because all men vnderstand but in part Besides this vntruth it is to be noted that the Bishop of Eureux committeth the same Sophisme he imputeth to me in taking our Sauiour Christes wordes simplie and absolutely which are sayd Secâ—â—â—undum quid as we say that is for a certaine respect namely of the present sadnesse and indisposition of the Disciples Also for regard of the administration of their charge full of dangers and not for the substance of the doctrine He would faine in wrap me in contradiction because I said in a place That the old Testament conteyned the Gospell or Christian doctrine And in another Fol. 16â— I say that the two Epistles to the Thessalonians contayned all the Christian doctrine and that for this cause Saint Paul exhorteth them to obserue not onely that which he wrote vnto them but also that which he taught by word of mouth whence the Bishop of Eureux concludeth that if the old Testament contained all it was then superfluous to bind them to the obseruation of the Tradition not written I answere that neyther dooth the sufficiencie of the olde Testament nor that of the newe abolish or hinder the Ministerie of preaching neither doe generall lawes and ordinances take away particular Expositions and applications neither doth the substance of the Gospell conteyned in the olde Testament Rom. 1â— as Saint Paul witnesseth hinder a more ample reuelation in the new Nor doth the sufficient declaration of all the Alticles of faith exclude the ordinances which concerne pollicie and the exterior order of the Church Considering that one may say that though there had beene alreadie some other writings of the new Testament besides these two Epistles directed to the Church of Thessalonica yet it might so be that they were not yet knowne nor come into euerie place And to confound the state of Churches springing with the state of Churches founded and established by tract of time is to reason as men doe in an euill cause by euill Logicke in an euill conscience which he here discouereth as through all the rest of his Booke To conclude the question is whether from this place obserue the Traditions which you haue receiued of vs whether it be by word or by our Epistle One may conclude 1. That the written word is not sufficient to Saluation 2. That the Traditions the Apostle speaketh of are of the substance of faith 3 That they were not written since this Epistle To the first I answere no because though the Doctrine that Saint Paul deliuered by word of mouth to each particular Church were more ample then that which is contained in each Epistle directed to these particuler Churches yet doth it not followe but that all is written For that which is not found in one Epistle is found in another Which importeth not neither to them who had heard the Surplus from the Apostles mouth nor to vs who may see in other partes of the Scripture that which is not contained in one To the second I say the Bishop of Eureux againe confoundeth the prediction of a thing to come with Articles of faith that is to say Historie with Doctrine To the third I say that this same Historie touching Antichrist is found written though not in this same Epistle nor by this same Author but by S. Iohn in the Reuelation These three wordes doe vnmix the Cahos of words hee had heaped together Let the Reader note by the way that in this Bishops iudgement To yeelde thankes vnto God for that he hath chosen vs to Saluation 〈◊〉 68. in sanctification of the spirit and in the faith of truth c. is not a Doctrine propounded to obserue Let vs see his last argumeÌ„t taken from the place wher Saint Paul recommendeth to Timothie â—â—m 1.13 〈◊〉 2. to keepe the true patterne of wholesome wordes which he had heard of him And to commit the things he had heard of him in the presence of many witnesses to faithful men which are able to teach others He concludeth thence that all these consignements transmissions and atestations had beene superfluous 〈◊〉 170. and vnprofitable if Timothie had heard nothing of Saint Paule which could not be veryfied by the Scripture alone I alleadged the exposition of Tertullian who obserueth that the Apostle saith expresly these things Tert. de pâ—â—script that none imagine him to speak of any vnwritten Doctrine but that they should refer it to the same Doctrine which he had set downe in writing He replyeth that this place of Tertullian is wrested without shewing by the least sillable how or wherein Neither can he with all his sophistrie For it is the proper exposition of the same place of the Apostle whereof he treateth and the proper refutation of this glose of our Bishop before inuented by the Hereticks that were in Tertullians time But seeing this father is not to his relish let vs present him Saint Ambrose who expoundeth it thus The Apostle willeth that hee commit the secrets to faithfull men and worthy which were able to teach others Ambr. â— Tim. 2. not indifferently to common negligent persons For there must be a great care had in the choosing of a Doctor or Teacher This is all S. Ambrose findeth in it which is in summe That Timothie as hauing the charge of an Euangelist should take heede whome hee chose for the teaching of the Gospell Rom. 1â— 1. Cor. 1â— Eph. 1 9â— 3.4 which the Apostle in diuers places calleth mysterie or secret
the first Author thereof vnlesse the Bishop of Eureux being a Courtier had rather giue the glorie of it to a Lady to that Nunne of Leige who had first this reuelation that the Church that the pretended head of the church who let himselfe be gouerned by a new reuelation or by an olde Nunne hath erred and caused all them to erre that haue receiued of him this new Ceremonie this new Diuine worship this new meanes yea ground of Saluation and of blessednes 〈◊〉 1.2 which consisteth in the remission of sinnes Or else that the Church afore that time that had doone nothing of it beleeued nothing nor heard of it for the space of twelue hundred yeares after Christ hath erred as well in that which it did as in that which it beleeued at least wise touching this point of the Eucharist which it honoured not after the manner set downe in the third booke of the ceremonies of the Romish Church of which maÌ„ner he that will confer it with the ceremonies sometimes obserued by the heathen in honour of Isis of the Syrian Goddesse of Diana of the Persians fire c. shall finde out the true originall of it and an antiquitie more auncient than any Apostolke Tradition is These are the ragges wherwith our Gaboanites doe ordinarily decke their Antiquitie which their owne writers freely confesse witnesse Cardinall Baronius who saith That it was to good purpose ordained that the ceremonies or seruices which belonged to the Pagan superstition Annal. tom 2. adâ— chr 200. shold be sanctified by the worship of the true God for to bee employed in the worship of the true 〈◊〉 Religion Now the Bishop of Eureux insteed of continuing his reply to my answere touching the foure pointes that we holde with them of the Romish Church which are the truth of the Baptisme of little Children that of the Baptisme of Heretickes the proceeding of the holye Ghost from the Father from the Sonne and the translation of the feast of the Sabaoth day to Sunday which Articles hee had alleadged as not hauing anye ground in Scripture instead I say of answering to my reasons by which I shewed the contrarie hee goeth no further and after hee had consumed wel nigh foure yeares in seeking replyes to the three or foure first leaues of my booke hee leaueth the matter in question and taketh another course finding it an easier worke to cause to bee written out by one of his Acolythes or Parasites many places of the Fathers all alreadie gathered and aranged in Bellarmine Baronius and others vppon the seauen pointes aboue quoted which it pleased him to choose then to seeke in his owne braine new cauilations that hee might ridde himselfe of so many sound proofes drawne foorth of the Scripture which shewe the perfection and sufficiency of the same in that which is necessarie for vs to beleeue touching these foure pointes alleadged by him rather for to prooue his own imperfection and vnsufficiencie then that of the Scripture And although it were no more difficult for me then for him to choose out of the same fathers to oppose as long a list of places wholy incompatible and vnreconcileable with them he produceth as aboue I haue done on like occasions and to shewe besides that the diâ—similiâ—tude that there is between some things which particular persons in the time of the auncieÌ„t church obserued in all liberty as indifferent and with the Church of Rome commauÌ„deth exacteth at this day with an extream cruelty Between those things that the one did by forme of remeÌ„brance acknowledgement with the other doth for merit and for works of supererogation I could shew the B. of Eureux his mallice in disguising the intention of the Fathers in mixing and confounding their Historicall recitalles with their Doctrines Customes with Lawes vndiscreete deuotions and manifest superstitions whereof they complained with diuine institutions The sufferance and conuenience of the Church with the approbation of the same Though it were I say easie for me to shewe all these thinges Notwithstanding seeing it were out of the center of my subiect I will not imitate that my selfe which I blame in my aduersarie who as well heere as else where sheweth that hee hath no other drift nor recourse then to obscure the principall by a thicke darke cloud of incidents in the gathering whereof he very well practiseth that which Iraeneus saith of the Gnostickes of his time 〈◊〉 c. 2. who taking the places of Scripture heere and there and wresting them for to giue colour to their blasphemies his holy Father compareth them to those that after they had vndone and dissolued the figure of a King made all of Precious Stones would make of the same Stones the figure of a Dogge or a Fox for to make men beleeue that it was the same figure of the King made by the first workeman Or to those who making Centons or mingle mangle of many matters culled out of Homers verses vppon a Subject that the Poet neuer dreamed of would perswade the jgnorant that Homer himselfe treated of that Subiect Whereas he saith that the instances whereupon wee contended the first day wee saw each other were the same whereof he frameth these seauen common places wherwith he filleth his Book I answer that it is false for of all the pointes that hee treateh there was spoken onely of Prayer for the dead and that by occasion of the Lady who had newly lost her husband was fully disposed to receiue his impressions Whereupon as I said after some other reasons that this custome of praying for the dead had neither example nor commaundement nor promise in Scripture we were straightwaies carried on general different of the sufficiencie or vnsufficiencie of the scripture as himself confesseth The Instance whereupon wee moste contended the first and second day of our conference was the Popes supremacie which I maintained to bee recent and new and by no meanes could bee deriued from the Apostles nor prooued by the Fathers in the forme and manner as at this day we see it during which disputation it hapned that the Bishoppe of Eureux for to shew the contrary alleadged S. Gregorie who saith Epist â— Epist 6 I knowe not what Bishoppe is not subiect to the Apostolicall seate Thereupon I required him to proceed with that which followed for he had the book open before him read therin this senteÌ„ce so well that not being able to excuse himselfe from finishing out the place which he would haue cut off he was coÌ„strained to ad these words which immediately follow WheÌ„ there is no fault that requireth it to wit this subiectioÌ„ to the censures all Bishops are equall according to the reason of humilitie As I noted to the standers by this ingenious Eclypse He replyed that there was no fraud seeing that none of that made against him I answered that thereby it would follow that hee who was a Bishop was equal to