Yea have not you of the Papal faction rent your selves from the Catholick Church Have not you revived the Schisme of the Donatists As they limited the Catholick Church to Africk doe not you limit it to the See of Rome Is not subjection to the Pope as universal Bishop an Essential of your Religion Was ever that an Essential of Religion in the Ancient Church Yea or in the Roman till of late especially in your Iesuit-sense as if the Pope had supreame jurisdiction on Earth even above Generall Councils Surely your Councils of Constance and Basile were of another opinion who not onely determined the Council to have jurisdiction over the Pope but also the Council of Basile Sess 45. in decreto 5. conclusionum is bold thus to affirm Nec unquam aliquis peritorum dubitavit Summum Pontificem in his quae fidem concernunt judicio ConcilioruÌ„ universalium esse subjectum And yet contrary to the judgement Peritorum omnium of all understanding Christians for the space of a thousand and foure hundred yeares after CHRIST if your Fathers of Basile be to be trusted your late Laterane Conventicle under Pope Leo the tenth Sess 11. hath defyned on the contrary the Pope to have jurisdiction above Generall Councils Doe you not by this your Schisme cut off your selves from the Body of the Catholick Church both of the Present and Former ages Doe you not oblige other Christian Churches to refuse Communion with you lest they should be involved in your Schisme and rent themselves with you from the Communion of all Christian Churches who acknowledge not the usurped supreamacie of your Pope If therefore you say that by the Church you meane onely the Particular Roman Church then why call you the Roman Church the Church as if there were no Church in the World but she Why doe you say that Luther did leap out of her Was he not driven out by Excommunication as learned Doctor Morton in his grand Imposture of the church of Rome cap. 15. Sect. 13. 14. 15. 16. hath copiously demonstrated in so much that your own Thuan as cited by the same Doctor Morton spares not to say Non defuerunt qui jam tum culpam in Leonem Papam rejicerent That there wanted not among your selves who laid the blame on Pope Leo the tenth But may not a man be a member of the Catholick Church though not of your Roman How often have PROTESTANTS declared that they onely refuse communion with you in so far as you reject the truth Imbrace the truth and lay by your supercilious Schisme and we are readie to joyne in communion with you But Fourthly why doe you not cite some Author for this Apocryphal prophesie which you impose on Luther That he would root out Poperie out of the World in two yeares Is it not observable that in all these your Nine Papers these two citations of Luther and Calvine are the first citations of any Authors that we have met with from you and you cite them at large without mentioning Booke Chapter or Page And I verily looke upon this which you alleage of Luther as an egregious calumny For I have some of Luthers workes by me and many grave Authors writing of him But that I neither find in his own Workes nor yet that is affirmed of him by any Credible Historian It is true your Bellarmine from whome it seemes you have borrowed this fiction In lib. 4. De Ecclesia Militante cap. 15. affirmes that your Lying Cochlaeus reported such a false prophesie of Luther But who knowes not that Bell â—rmine and other your Controversists are ready to scratch up the dirt which lying calumniating adversaries have thrown upon our Reformed Divines and that Cochlaeus in particular hath laboured to traduce Luther most calumniously even as that Runnagad Bolsecus hath most impudently reproached Master Calvine Who but an Ignorant or one possessed with Malice will give credit to Cochlaeus in this marter who is knowne to have been a most viruleut Adversarie of Luthers Am I the first who have given such a character of your Cochlaeus Hear what learned and modest Whitaker said of him when he is pondering the same allegeance of Bellarmine out of Cochlaeus Controvers de Ecclesia quaest 5. cap. 13. Respondeo sayeth he nullam fidem adhibendam esse Cochlaeo homini mendacissimo nec ullam habendam esse illius rationem fuit enim homo nullius fidei That is in English I answere that no faith is to be given to Cochlaeus a person exceedingly addicted to lying neither is any account to be made of his testimony for he was a man of no faith But I shall now onely remit you to a Lutheran Gerard in loc com loc de Eccles cap. 11. sect 12. § 290. where you will find both this Objection of Bellarmine and that Cochlaeanum mendacium as Gerard termes it that Lie of Cochlaeus concerning Luther copiously confuted But though it pleaseth GOD in the depth of his Judgements to permit your Papal usurpation to continue for a time as he hath permitted the Delusions and Usorpations of the Mahumetane faction Yet your Bellarmine acknowledges that Luther gave a blow to the Papacie which it never recovered Lib 3. De Romano Pontif. cap. 21. Ab eo tempore sayeth he quo per vos Papa Antichristus esse caepit non modo non crevit sed semper decrevit ejus imperium Hence this Distich was writen of him And againe Vir sine vi ferri vi verbi inermibus armis Vir sine re sine spe contudit orbis opes Lutherus decimum confecit strage Leonem De clava noli quaerere penna fuit And yet further Roma Orbem domuit Romam sibi Papa subegit Viribus illa suis fraudibus iste suis Quantum isto major Lutherus major illa Orbem urbemque uno qui domuit calamo As for predictions of Rom's overthrow I may remit you to more Canonick Prophesies thereof then that of Frederick You may if you will take one from Revel 14.8 Babylon is fallen is fallen that great citie because she made all Nations drinke of the wine of the wrath of her fornication You may take another from Revel 17.16 The ten hornes which thou saw upon the beast shall hate the whore and make her desolat and naked and eat her flâ—sh and burne her with fire You may adde a third from Revel 18.2 And the Angel cryed mighty lie with a strong voice Babylon the great is fallen is fallen and is become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every uncleane and hatefull bird Goe not to say that these are but our Lutheran comments to expound Babylon by Rome Did not Hierome so expound it Epist. ad Algasiam quaest 11. epist ad Asellam And Austine lib. 18. de civit DEI cap. 22. and Tertull. lib. contra Indaeos cap. 9. and Eusebius lib. 2. hist eccles cap. 14 Yea there is such
is to keep up a stated Schisine in Christendom and to ruin by Fraud or Force all who cannot comply with their mischievous Projects seriously to consider whether there be not many things in the present Popish Religion greatly obstructive to the Peace and Vnity of the Catholick Church I shall but hint at a few things As first the pretended Infallibility of the Romish Church whether Pope or Council or both Will the Church of Rome admit of Reformation so long as she affirmes her self to be beyond possibilitie of erring Secondly The Vniversal Supremacy acclaimed by the Pope over the Catholick Church Doth not this oblige Romanists to keep up a Schisme from all these Churches which cannot enslave themselves to this Vsurped power Thirdly The manifold Idolatry of the Romish Religion Masse-Worship Image-Worship Sainct-Worship Angel-Worship Crosse-Worship Relict-Worship Know not judicious Romanists that their Idolatry is not only offensive to many Christian Churches but also impeditive of the conversion of Iewes and Infidels Fourthly The Injuriousnesse of the Romish Religion to Our LORD JESUS CHRIST the only MEDIATOR betwixt GOD and Man by setting up a daylie propitiatory facrifice for the sins of the Living and Dead in the Masse by asserting that men must satisfie for a lesser kinde of sinnes which they call venial either in this Lyfe or in Purgatorie yea and for the temporal punishment due to mortal sinnes by affirming that men doe merit Heaven ex condigno and that we must be justified by inherent Righteousnesse Doe not Romanists in persuance of these and such like tenets Anathematiz many christian Churches who cannot concurre with them in such like Blasphemyes against our Blessed SAVIOUR Fifthly The going about publick worship in the Latine tongue which is not now the Vulgar language of any Nation of the World Doth not the Apostle condemne the performing of publick worship in an unknown tongue without an interpreter 1. Cor. 14. so clearly that your great Cardinal Cajetan commenting on the place sayeth Ex hac Pauli doctrina habetur quod melius ad aedificationem Ecclesiae est orationes publicas quae audiente populo dicuntur dici lingua communi clericis populo quam dici latine Sixthly Are not the reproaches horrid which Romanists throw upon the Holy Scriptures of GOD in their debates concerning the Authority Perspicuity Perfection Necessity and Interpretation of the Scriptures Nay is not this one of the first Query's wherewith Missionary Iesuits doe assault our people how doe you know the Scriptures to be the Word of GOD As if they would rather have people turne Scepticks or Atheists then remaine PROTESTANTS Have not many Romanists had many convictions in their consciences that there are corruptions in the Church of Rome calling aloud for Reformation in so-much that there have been many meetings at Rome of their Cardinals and Bishops in order to this But well did Luther as Sleidan reports lib. 12. ad Annum 1537. compare these Assemblyes to a company of Foxes comeing to sweep a room full of dust with their tailes And in stead of sweeping out the dust they sweept it all about the house and made a great smoke for a while but when they were gone the dust fell down againe How long shall Romanists through Pride prejudice faction and interest stifle these convictions Yet if any Romanist will needs prosecute this debate I cannot be so base being honoured to stand for so GLORIOUS a CAUSE as to fear what any Mortal can say I know there are Learned Romanists who can say much more for their ill cause then Mr. Dempster hath done They want neither Learning nor Policy to support their Mystery of iniquity So that as Sir Edwin Sands hath judiciously observed in his Speculum Europae page 24. were it not for the Natural weakenes of untruth and Dishonesty which being rotten at the heart doeth abate the force of what ever is founded thereon there outward means were sufficient to subdue a whole World But it concerns Romanists to notice the smart admonition which Austine gave to a Learned Heathen Ornari a te quaerit Diabolus How will these men render an account of their Talents one day who emprove them to promot the Devils interest I should be a very great stranger to my self if I were not conscious to my own weakenesse Yet Truth hath such advantage over Errour that it doth not need Advocats of the greatest Learning or profoundest Judgement Let me only therefore leave these Advertisements to him who will be at the paines to make a Reply whether Mr. Dempster who as I heare is alive againe or any other First that he hath not only the tenth and last paper to answere but also to supply the paralipomena or emissions of all his former papers so in truth he hath the whole Ten to examine 2. It will not be very handsome to catch at broken shreds here or there But if he would doe his worke throughly he must discusse all and chiefly that which is most material Is there any thing of moment in Mr. Dempsters papers which I have not revised 3. I desire that he would not object to me the ordinarie cavils of Romanists unlesse he will be at the paines to examine what is Replyed thereto by our Divines Else he will constraine me either to neglect what he sayes or to remit him to the Authours who have canvased these Objections before or at most to transcribe old Answeres given to these old objections which cannot but be allowable in me who am the Defendant This I the rather have mentioned because it is observed that late Romish Pamphleters doe often resume old Objections without mentioning the Answeres made thereto by our Divines as if they were New Arguments and hitherto unheard of Thus they abuse many of the Vulgar who are not versed in great volumes especially in the Latine tongue where all these Sophisms are solidly confuted 4. He may be pleased to owne what he writes by putting his Name thereto I cannot be obliged to fight any longer cum Larvis with Specters who have not the confidence to owne what they write 5. And lastly I hope it would not be amisse that Personal criminations were laid aside Mr. Dempster extorted more Recriminations from me then I had pleasure in but if I meet with a Civil Adversary I hope he shall have no cause to complaine of Vncivility from me But if he will needs thrust more at me then at the CAVSE I can rejoyce with Hierom to be railed upon by Hereticks and with Job chap. 31. verse 36. Take these invectives on my shoulder and bind them to me as a Crown It was an Heroick word of Luther Indies magis mihi placeo superbus fio quod video nomen pessimū mihi crescere He gloryed in it that he was evil spoken of for a good cause If these rational proposals be neglected I will not contend in that Case for the last word Patience and Silence wil I hope sufficiently
Religion but your Prot estant Religion And then your choier is stirred that you should be remitted to our Authors Morney and Grotius I confesse smyling and silence are your best Topicks But laugh you fret you you must hear truth Are there I beseech you more true Christian Religions then one that you say As if there were no Christian Religion but your Protestant Religion Sayes not the Apostle Ephes 4.5 Una fides unum baptisma One faith one Baptisme We shall not therefore declyne this Iest Prove if you can our Religion not to be the Religion of the purest ancient primitive Church in the first three Centuries or that there is an essential difference betwixt their Religion and ours and I shal yeeld to you the Buckler and grant that our Religion is not the true Religion But you may sooner pull the Sun out of his Orbe then performe this Nay if I were not resolved to keep you at the probation of your Assumption I might argue thus That Religion which in all its essentials agrees with the Religion of the purest and most primitive Antiquitie in the first three Centuries must be the true Religion But the Religion of PROTESTANTS in all the essentials thereof agrees with the Religion of the purest and most primitive Antiquitie in the first three Centuries Ergo the Religion of PROTESTANTS is the true Religion The Major you must admit or else condemne the primitive Church yea and Christianitie it self The Assumption is evident by comparing our Religion with the apologies of Tertullian Iustin Martyr Athenagoras Arnobius c. I appeal you out of all the authentick writings of the Fathers of these three Ages to produce one essential difference betwixt their Religion and ours But on the contrary it were easie from this same Principle to demonstrat that your Romish Religion is not the true Religion Thus If the Romish Religion differs in its essentials from the Ancient Christian Religion in the first three Centuries then the Romish Religion is not the true Religion But the Romish Religion differs in its essentials from the Ancient Christian Religion in the first three Centuries Ergo the Romish Religion is not the true Religion â— The Major is clear the true Christian Religion being but one For proofe of the Assumption I remit you to that Formula fidei or Romish Creed contrived by Pope Pius the fourth which is set down by Onuphrius in the life of the said Pope to which all the Bishops of your Church must solemnly swear In which after the Constantinopolitan Creed there be added many articles which never were either in the Apostolick Creed or in the Nicen. Or in the Athanasian or in the Constantinopolitan or in any other Christian Creed much above the space of three hundred years after Christ Nay in it all the articles defyned in the Councill of Trent are declared to be Fides vera Catholica extra quam neme salvus esse potest the true Catholick faith without which there can be no Salvation Now I appeal you to produce any evidence from the indubitat writings of the first three Centuries that this was the faith of the Catholick Church in these three Ages Which if you doe here under my hand I engage to become a Papist If you cannot as I am perswaded you are not able then confesse that your Religion is not the true Christian Religion Nay learned Divines amongst the rest Crakanthorp in his Defens Ecclesiae Anglicanae contra Spalat cap. 15. num 4. And long before him Bishop Iuell in a Sermon preached at London Anno One thousand five hundreth and sixtie appealed the Doctors of your Church to produce either Church Councills or Fathers for the space of six hundreth years after Christ who mantained all these Articles which now are concluded by the forementioned Formula fidei of Pope Pius the fourth to be necessarie to Salvation And yet to this day none of your men have been able to performe this Was it I pray you a point of faith necessary to Salvation in the first three Centuries I might goe much lower to acknowledge the Church of Rome the Mother and Mistris of all Churches Or the headship of the Bishop of Rome over the whole Catholick Church What meaned then the opposition made to Pope Victor by Polycrates and the Asiaticks or by Cyprian and the Africans to Pope Stephanus not to mention others Or was it a part of the Christian faith necessarie to Salvation in the first three hundreth years that Images were to be adored that there is a Purgatorie after this life That Bread and Wine are transubstantiated into the Body of Christ That the Communion ought to be given under one kynd abstracting the Cup from the people As to this last I shall present to you the testimonie of your own Cassander by which you may judge of the rest In Consult Art 22. Satis compertum est vniversalem Christi ecclesiam in hunc usê™ diem occidentalem vere seu Romanam mille amplius a Christe annis in solenn ordinaria hujus Sacramenti dispensatione utramê™ Panis Vinâ— speciem omnibus ecclesiia Chrsti membris exhibuisse id quod ex innumeris veterum Scriptorum tam Graecorum quam Latinorum testimoniis manifestum est You needed not to have offended that I remitted you to Morney and Grotius especially I having joined with them your own Vives and these Tractats not having been written in opposition to you Papists But against Jews Heathens and Mahumetans And it was but shallownesse in you to desire me to squeeze them for one ground to prove the truth of the PROTESTANT Religion seeing I did appeal to all the solid grounds that ever were made use of either by Ancients or Moderns either by these of the Eastern or Western Church either by PROTESTANTS or Papists to prove the Christian Religion against Heathens that it might be examined whether these did not likewise prove the PROTESTANT Religion to be true Squeeze you them all and if you find it not to be so Herbam dabo Onely I must adde that these last named Authors were Persons of such eminent learning that neither you nor I need to be ashamed to learn a lesson from them This much further I have written then once I intended to have done so long as you hold on in your trifling straine But untill you answere to all the particulars of this Paper and to these you have omitted in my former Papers know that I will looke upon any thing that comes from you as unworthie of a Reply I shall close with that saying of Cyprian Epist. 40. Qui mandatum Dei rejictunt et traditionem suam st atuere conantur Fortiter a vobis nobis et firmiter respuantur Aberdene June 9. 1666. John Menzeis The Jesuits fifth Paper An Answere to a fourth Paper of Mr. IOHN MENZEIS wherein he continues to perswade that the grounds which he produced for the truth of the Protestant Religion were not
SalvatioÌ„ from the faith of the most ancient primitive Church Seeing your Formula fidei contrived by Pope Pius the fourth hath made all the canons of the councill of Trent necessarie which I am sure neither you nor any man shall be able to show to have been the faith of the most Ancient and primitive Church Though this hath been put to you once and againe yet have you not dared to touch upon this string Yea Fifthly from this your imposing new necessary articles of faith whereas Regula fidei as Tertullian well sayed Lib. de velandis Virgin Una omnino est immobilis irrefomabilis many of our Divines have demonstrated your Church to be the most Schismaticall society that bears the name of a Church under Heaven For by this you have cut your selves off both from the ancient Church and from the greatest part of Christendome at this day Among many others who have convicted you of this greivous crime you may try how you can expede your self from that which hath been said to this purpose by Decter Morton in his booke intituled The Grand Imposture of the Church of Rome cap. 15. by Stilling fleet in his Vindicatione of the Bishop of Canterbury part 2. cap. 2. And Voetius in his Desperata causa Papatus lib. 3. From this it were easy to demonstrat that notwithstanding your great pretences to Catholicisme we not ye are the true Catholiks For we acknowledge coÌ„munion with the whole Church both ancient modern which keep the essentials fundameÌ„tals of Christianity But your Chuch by imposing new necessary articles of faith which neither the ancient Church nor yet the greatest part of the present Church did ever acknowledge have cut your selves off from the body I shall close this Section with this Dilemma Either the Scriptures doe containe all that is necessarie to Salvation or not if they doe then you are a perverse wrangling sophister in cavilling against this truth If not then instance one necessary truth not contained in Scriptures And this should have been your worke if you would have done any thing to purpose against this precious truth of the Scriptures being a compleet Canon to have showed some Necessary article of faith not contained therein And if you set to this worke remember that according to your own principles you must prove it by some infallible authority which you will find as hard a worke as to roll Sysiphi Saxum In place of your third objection you enquire What are the means for interpreting Scripture what is the due use of these means Whether a false Religion may not use the meane And whether people without preaching can duely use the means of interpretation and come to the knowledge of all things necessary And from the use of meane of interpretation you would conclude the Scriptures not to be perspicuous Behold now of a disputant you are become a Querist You have need I confesse in your old dayes to turne a Catechumen and if you would become a docile Disciple you might receive convincing instructions and find that you had no just cause to have turned a Runnagade from the Religion of PROTESTANTS unto which you were baptized But so long as your Queries proceed from a cavilling humor you deserve no other answere then the retortion of some puzling Queries as our Lord Christ sometimes confuted the insidious interrogaturs of his adversaries A remarkeable instance whereof you may find Luke 20. from verse 2. to verse 8 And therefore to pull down these Spider webs in which you seeme not a little to confide know First that the use of means of interpretation doth nothing derogat from the asserted Perspicuity of the Scriptures especially seeing the principall means of interpretation are to be fetched from the Scripture it self Suppose a man be in a darke Roome with his eyes shut because he must first open both eyes and windowes before he can see the Sun will you therefore accuse the Sun of obscurity Is not the Perspicuity of Scriptures luculently attested Psal 119. vers 105.2 Pet. 1.19 2. Cor. 4.3.4 Rom. 10.7.8 c. If Scriptures be not perspicuous in things necessary it must be either because GOD would not speake clearlie in them or because he could not It were too hard blasphemie to say he could not Who made mans mouth Exod. 4.11 Hence Laâ—tantius lib. 6. Institut cap. 21. Num Deus linguae mentit artifex lâ—â—uinâ—n potest Nor can you say because he would not seeing this is the verie end of Scripture to reveal unto us the way of Salvation Iohn 20.31 Rom. 15.4.2 Tim. 3.15 Dare you say that our holy and gracious Lord did purposlle deliver the whole Scripture obscurely as Aristâ—tle did his Acromaticks and therefore said of them Edidi non edidi You might have learned a better lesson from Ierom on Psal 96. Where he makes this difference betwixt the writings of Plato and the Apostles Plato said he purposlie affected obscurity that few might understand but the Apostles wrote clearly that they might accommodat themselves to the capacities of all the people of GOD. But Secondly Are not you Romanists as much concerned as we in finding out the means for interpreting Scripture yea and besides to find out also means for interpreting the Decretalls Bulls and Breves of your Popes Are you not acquaint with the perplexed debates of your Authors and particularlie how Stapletons eleventh booke de Principiis fidei Doctrinalibus is wholly spent De mediis interpretandi Scripturam And when all is done you Jesuits can never think your Roman cause sufficiently secured except your Pope be made the onely Infallible Interpreter of Scriptures and therefore Gregorius de Valentia lib. 7. De analysi fidei cap. 1. Proposes this assertion as that which he would prove throughout the whole booke Pontifex ipse Romanus est in quo authoritas illa residet quae in Ecclesia extat ad judicandum de omnibus omnino fidei controversiis And though in his Lib. 8. he mentions diverse rules in determining controversies of faith yet at last he concludes in Cap. 10. That the Pope may use these according to his discretion and that he is not tyed to take advice of Cardinals or other Doctors but according to his pleasure and that he may desyne as Infallibly without them as with them So that till the Scripture have no libertie to speake any thing but what sense your Popes are pleased to put upon it you can never secure either your Pope or Papal Religion from Scriptural Anathema's Were it not easie for me here to give you and the World a Specimen of goodlie expositions of these your infallible interpreters I meane your Popes such as Syricius Innocent the third Boniface the eight c. They who can expound Statuimus by Abrogamus and Pasee â—ues meas of deposing and killing of Princes what Glosses can they not put on scriptures By this it may appeare that this your Querie like all
Catholick Church in the Second or Third Centurie and argue thence as from a Principle especially when he hath to doe with an Adversarie who may admit the faith of the Ancient Church as a Test and will decline the Scriptures under pretext of obscarity or ambiguity Yea as I have said before A Divine may in such a case argue from the faith of one true Particular Church Suppose that an Original writ were either lost or blotted and blurred from which there hath been several Transumpts taken and that there were two persons pretending to have Transumpts but each of them questioning the fidelity of the others Transumpt This Question could not be decided by the Original it being supposed either to be lost or blotted utterly and blurred and neither of the two Parties willing yeeld to one another But there being found another Transump which both the Parties acknowledge to have been the First Copie that was taken from the Original Could there be any way so good for decyding the Question next to the compareing of both the Transumpts with the Original if it could be had or were clear as to compare the two controverted Copies with this uncontroverted Transumpt In this case would not he who shunned to bring his Copie to the tryall leave a strong presumption that his Paper were but a forged draught Now though all the authority which the unquestioned Transumpt hath was derived from its conformity with the Original yet in these circumstances it may have the place of a Test to distinguish betwixt true and adulterat Copies The application is obvious The Papists like old Hereticks accuse Scriptures as being blotted and blurred yea as in a manner lost The Originals if you may be beleeved being corrupted albeit indeed Scripture is clear and by the good hand of GOD preserved to this day Yet seeing you sometimes seeme to magnify Antiquity as if you did acknowledge the faith of the Ancient Church to be a faithful Transumpt from that authentick Original of the Scriptures what more condescension can we PROTESTANTS in this case show to you Then seeing you will not be judged by the Scriptures which are out Heavenly Fathers authentick Testament then I say to acquiesce that the cause betwixt us be tryed by that Transumpt which you seeme to acknowledge And when you decline this tryal also doth it not speake you out to be real Prevaricators and Cavillers But because some may wonder whence it is that you doe not onely decline a tryall by Scripture but also by Antiquity I will here open the Mysterie that lurkes under it Though you Romanists seeme somtimes to magnify Fathers Councils and Antiquity yet there are none who set them more at nought then you as if you put me to it I will make good by particular instances And therefore laying them aside it is onely your present Romish Church that is your sure Author-hold And by your present Church your Jesuited Partie meanes only the Pope I doe not stander you Hear your great Champion Gretser who comes in to succour Bellarmin at a dead lift Tom. 1. Defens cap. 10. lib. 3. Bellarmin De ver be Dei colum 1450. Quando Ecclesiam dicimus esse omnium controversiarum fidei juaicem intelligimus Pontisicem Romanum qui pre teâ—pore praesens naviculam militantis Ecclesiae moderatur When we affirme sayeth he the Church to be the judge of all controversies of faith by the Church we understand the Bishop of Rome who for the time being Governs the ship of the Militant Church So that there is no security for your unhappie Religion unlesse ye be made Chancelours in your own Assyze If it be asked how shall any know that the Romish Church is the True Church The answere must be because she that is her head the Pope sayes she is the True Church If it be againe asked how shall it be known that the Pope is the Head of the Church The answere must be because he sayes he is it But how shall it be known that he is Infallible in so saying The answere must be because he sayes this is his prerogative And how shall it be known that the Romish Religion is the onely True Religion The onely plaine answere is because the Pope whose grandour is mantained thereby sayes it is the True Religion And how shall it be known that the Religion of PROTESTANTS is a Wrong Religion Because forsooth the Pope whose triple Crown is shaken by the Religion of Protestants sayes that it is an heretical Religion Alace abcel that poore simple people should be so miserably cheaâ—ed and seduced GOD I trust will erre long open their eyes to see these damnable impostures You had asserted in your last That every supernatural act of faith must be founded on the foreknowledge of the infallible assistance of the Popounders of divine truths To which in my last I had Replyed many thing most of which according to your custome you never once touch I must therefore reminde you of the heads of them As First you were demanded who these Infallible Propounders are Whether you Romanists can agree upon them Whether you can produce grounds for their infallibility from Scripture or Universal Tradition I hope you will not pretend every one of your Shavelings to be infallible Yea I brought luculent evidence that both Popes and General Councils may erre and have erred Secondly I asked whereupon the Faith of these pretended Infallible Propounders was builded and wherein they differed from Enthusiasts Thirdly supposing Pope or Council or both had this Infalliblity yet seeing the people receive their sentence from the mouth of such fallible and fallacious persons as you how can they be assured that either you have not taken up the sense of their Decrees wrong or that for base ends you doe not falsifie them And Fourthly how it can be known who are your Clergie men that are gifted with this assistance seeing the efficacie of Sacraments of which Ordination with you is one dependeth on the secret intention of the Priest But none of these doe you once touch Are not you fitter to be a Trencher Chaplaine to a Biggotted and implicit Proselit then a Disputant I Might here also comit you with the late Patrons of your Traditionarie Way particularly with Master Cressy who in his Exomologesis Cap. 51. Sect. 4. Acknowledges That the pastors of the Church proceed not now as the Apostles did with a peculiar infallible direction of the holy Spirit but with prudential collection not alwayes necessarie and that to the Apostles such an infallible certainty of means was necessarie but not so now to the Church And in his chap. 40. Sect. 3. He acknowledges the unfortunatness of that word infallibility And said that he could find no such word in any Council and that there appeared no necessity to him that any PROTESTANT should ever have heard that word named let be pressed with so much earnestness and that Master Chillingworth hath combated that word
Verdict of Pope Gregorie the first concerning the deed of Serenus Bishop of Massils for breaking the Images which he saw abused to Idolatrie Lib. 9. epist 9. Et quideus quia eas adorari vetuisses emnino laudamus Hereupon your Cassander in Consult art 21. De picturis sayeth he Quae fuerit mens sententia Rom iuae Ecclesiae adbuc aetate Gregorii satis ex ejus scriptis manifest um est viz. Ideo hiberi picturas non quidem ut colantur adorentur sed ut imperiti picturis inspiciendis haud aliter as literis legendis rerum gestarum admonerentur Yea the Council of Eliberis câ—x 36. More ancient as is supposed then the Nicen expresly prohibited the drawing of pictures in Churches But to manifest how little regard you Romanists have to Antiquity when it playes not to your Tune your Melchior Canus lib. 5. loc Cont. cap. 4. Speaking of this Ancient Canon sayes Lex illa non imprudenter modo verum etiâ—â—â— impie a concilio Elibertino est lata de tollendis imaginibus Inst. 2. Your present Romish Church pantainet that prodigious and bloody tenet of Iransubstantiation in the Sacranent Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appearet by the withâ—g of Gelasius Bishop of Rome contra Nestor Et Eutych in tom 4. biblioth Patrum where expresly he sayes Non desinit substantia panis vini This testimony is so luculent that your Cardinals Bellarmine and Barronius would question whether that Tractat were writen by Gelasius Bishop of Rome although it passe under his name in Bibliotheca Patrum and would ascrive it to another Gelasius Cyzicenus or Caesariensis But you may see these allegeances learnedly consured by Doctor Iohn Forbes of Corse in his Iustruc historico theol lib. 11. cap. 16. And giving but not granting that there allegeances were true yet that Gelasius Cyzicenus as also Caesariensis are acknowledged to be Catholick authors and more ancient then Gelasins Bishop of Rome And the same which Gelasius asserts of the tem â—oiâ—g of the substance of Bread and Wine in the Sacrament is affirmed by other ancient and Catholick Authors particularly by Tâ—endoret dialog 2. Hence your own Scotus if Bellarmine may be credited Lab. 3. ' De Euâ—har cap. 23. Acknowledged that Transubstantiation was no article of saith before the late Lateran Council under Innocent the thâ—d Anno. 1215. Inst 3. Your present Romish Church mantaines the publickâ—solemne and ordnarie celebration of the Sacrament of the Lords Supper under one kinde Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by Pope Leo the first who in his Seâ—m 4. de quadragesim condemnes the partaking of the Bread wiâ—â— out die Cup as a Manichean abomination Hence your Cassanâ—er in consult art 21 De administratione sacro sancti sacraments Eucharistiassatis compertum est Vniversalem Christs Ecclesiam in hanc usque diem Occidentaelem vero seu Romanam mille ampiâ—nâ— Ã Christ annis in solcr ni praesertim ordinaria hujus Sacraments dess ensatione utrainque paris vins speciem omnibus Ecclesiae Christs merâ—br is exhâ—luâ—sse â—d quod ex â—â—umeris veterum Scriptorum tam Graecorum quam latinerum testimonâ—â— manisestum est Bus seeing I mentioned Pope Leo's sermons let â—â—â—â—member you that Ancient Bishops of Rome such as Lce and Gregorie c. were Preaching Bishops not so your Present Popes Yea your Bellarmin to apolog zâ— for these your Idol shepherds hath not spared to say Lib. 3. De Pont. Rom. cap 24. Non tenentur Pontifices per se concionars Satis est st curent per alios ista prastari If they Preach onely by Proxies take heed they goe not to Heaven onely by prexies also Have you not heard how your Espencaus and others of the more moderat sort among you have bitterly lamented this prophane and lazie desuetud of preaching in your Popes Inst 4. Your present Romish Church mantaines the Popes universal suprcamacie and his Title of universal Bishop Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by Pope Gregorte the first his many invectives against that title as a title of Noveltie Error Impiery Blasphemie c. I give you but two testimonies from him I be one is In lib. 6. Aepist 30. Ego fidenter dico quisquis se universalem sacerdotem vocat vel vocari desiderat in elatione sua antichristum praecurrit quia superbiendo se caeteris praeponit The other is In lib. 4. Aepist 36. Nullus decessorum meorum hoc prophano vocabulo universalis Episcopi uti consensit Thus your verie Popedome it self whose vitals seeme to consist in this Vniversal supreamacie is condemned by the Ancient Church of Rome Hence Cyprian with eightie and seven Bishops in an African council sayeth Neque quisquam nostrum Episcopum se esse episcoporum constituit aut tyrannico terrore collegas suos ad obsequends necessitatem adigu Where he cals it a tyrannical terror for one Bishop to impose on others Inst 5. Your present Romish Church mantaines the Apocryphal bookes to be canonical and of equal authority with the undoubted Seriptures of GOD. Not so the Ancient Romish Church As any eares by lerome and Gregorie if your own Occam may be credited In Dialog part 3. lib. 3. can 16. Secundum Hieronymum sayeth he Et Gregorium liber ludith Tobiae Maccabiorum Ecclesiasticus liber sapientiae non sunt recipiendi ad confirmandum aliquid in fids This same you will find copiâ—â—sl deâ—â—onstrated by Doctor Cosin in his Scholastical historie of the canon of Scripture Inst 6. You Jesuits who are the prevalent faction at the present in your Romish Church and your Canonists mantaine the dominion and jurisdiction of your Pape over Princes So did not the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by Pope Gregorie the first who thus writer to the Emperour Maurice lib. 2. epist 61. Sacerdotes meos tuae manus commisi Utrobique ergo quae debui exsolvi qui Imperatori obedientiam praebui pro DEO quod sensi minime tacui Know you not Bernards inference from the Apostles word Rom. 13.1 Let every Soul be subject to the higher Poriers writing to a great man of your Romish Church Siomnis anima tum vestra quis vos excipit ex universitate si quis tentat excipere tentat decipere And have you not heard of Chrysostoms enumeration long before him In epist. ad Rom. cap. 13. hom 23. Sive Apostolus sis sive Propheta sive Evangelista sive Sacerdos subditus sis Inst 7. Your present Romish Church mantaines Papal indulgences for easing soules under the paines of Purgatorie Not so the Ancient Romish Church For there is no mention of such indulgences in al Antiquity Nay so novel is that invention that they are not mentioned either by Gratian or Lombard who were so verie diligent in gathering up al your Romish chaffe and stuble Hence your Durand in 4. sent disp 20. quaest 3. § 4. Sayeth De indulgentiis pauca dici pissunt per
and Eutychianism The same also is confirmed by Ephraim Pagit in his Christianography part 1. cap. 10. where he likwise undertakes to prove that these Churches are not Heretical but Orthodox in the maine But concerning the vindication of the Greek Church in particular at least from a Fundamental error touching The procession of the holy Ghost I shall referre you to learned Stilling fleet in his Rational account of the PROTESTANT Religion part 1. cap. 1. I know your Cardinal Barronius in the end of the Sixth tom of his Annals labours to perswade the World that an Embassy was sent to Pope Clement the eight from Gabriel Patriarch of Alexandria submitting himself and all the Churches under his jurisdiction both in Egypt and Abassia to the Pope But as learned Breerwood observes in his Inquirie about the diversitie of Languages Religiones Cap. 22. this upon examination was found to be a meer Trick of imposture Yea this cheat is acknowledged not only by your Historian Thuan lib. 114. ad annum 1595. but also by Thomas a Jesu the Carmelit De conversione omnium gentium lib. 7. cap. 6. pag. 364. Have you no way to perswade the World of the Catholicisme of your Church but by such Impostures I might besides remember you of the Waldenses and Albigenses a people nearer hand who professed as to Substantials the same Religion with PROTESTANTS long before Luther Yet we never looked on them or Luther or Calvine as the Authors of our Religion as you doe rantingly talk For it derives its Original from Christ alone and his Apostles Prove it to be of meaner or latter extract and I will disowne it I know the Waldenses were loaded with grievous aspersions by the Zealots of the Romish faction as if they had been Arrians Manichees Necromancers and what not But they are abundantly vindicated from these Calamnies by learned Divines out of the writings of Authors who cannot be suspected to have been too favourable to them I shall only at the time remember you of that known testimonie of the Inquisitor Reyner concerning them Quod coram hominibus juste vivant bene omnia de Deo credant omnes articulos qui in symbolo continentur Solum Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant oderunt That is They live justly before men they believe all things well concerning GOD and all the Articles of the Creed Onely they hate and blaspeme the Church of Rome You may judge of the rest of the Calumnies thrown upon thâ—m by these two chief ones whereof learned Prideaux lect 9. De visibilitate Ecclesiae § 11. gives this account They were sayeth he charged as mantaining with the Manichees Due Principia Two beginnings of things GOD and the Devil because forsooth they mantained that the Emperour was independent from the Pope They were likewise sayeth he charged with Arriantsme because they denyed Crustam in Christum esse transubstantiatam That a crust of bread was transubstantiated into Christ in the Sacrament You may see a large vindication of them in Vsser De successione Ecclesiarum in Occidente ab Apostolâ—rum temperibus ad nostram aetatem capp 6 8.10 Let it suffice at the time to remember you that he cites cap. 10. pag. 373. edit 2. luculent testimonies out of Paradius Annals of Burgundy and Girardus French Historie that because of their freedome in reproving the dissolute life and debauched manners of the Romish Clergie Plures nefariae eis assingebantur opiniones à quibus fuerunt omnino alâ—eni That is Many impious opinions were atributed to the Waldenses which they altogether abhorred I might also make mention of these in Bohem who were termed the Hussits to whome Hoornbeck in the forcited place testifies that the Church of CoÌ„stantinople wrot a letter in the year 1451. exhorting theÌ„ to CoÌ„munion with the Greek Church in oppositioÌ„ to the Bishop of Rome Yea your own Cochlaeus other Popish writers are quoted by Prideaux Lect. 9. § 11. acknowledging that the Lutherans derived their doctrine from the Hussits the Hussits from the Wicklevists the Wicklevists from the Waldenses When therfore ye are better instructed you will acknowledge that there Religion ours as to Substantials are the same But I may come yet nearer and tell you that Luther had Communion with many thousands who before his appearance were groaning under the corruptions of the Church of Rome and breathed after the shaking off the yoke of the Papal faction As beside others Doctor Field hath demonstrated in Lib. 3. of his way to the Church cap. 12. and more largely in his Appendix to that Third booke Thinke you the World to be strangers to the piteous complaints of Nicolaus Clemanges Alvarez Pelagius Theodoricus à Niem Gulielmus à Saucto Amore c. Concerning the Corruptions of the church of Rome Yea did not Pope Adrian the sixth acknowledge the necessitie of a reformation and that the World was hungrily expecting it I know your late Papal parasites would perswade us That it was only a reformation of manners and not of Doctrine which was groaned after in the church of Rome But the contrarie is luculently demonstrated by our Authors I shall at the time only remit you to Sir Humphry Lynd's defence of Via tuta against I. R. entiuled a case for the spectacles cap. 4. pag. 165. c. Where he bringes testimonies not onely from the Cardinal de Alâ—aco Gerson Grostead Occam and from the Council of Pisa but also from the Council of Trent it self to prove that before and about the first sitting down of that Council Romanists themselves were sensible that There was a necessity of reformation of doctrine as well as of manners Hence was it that so many thousands in most of the nations of Europe did joine with Luther at his appearance who did not only oppose The corrupt manners but also the Corrupt Doctrines of the Church of Rome Hence is that of your Alphonsus à Castro adversus haeres in Aepist nuneupat ad Pacâ—ec Cardinal Nec solus Lutherus hoc saculo prodâ—it sed multorum Hareticorum agmine ceu quodam satellitio stipatus processit qui illum tanquam ducem primo egredientem spectasse videntur Where he acknowledgeth that Luther came forth accompanied as with an Armâ—â— who but waited for his appearance as their Captaine and Leader But that I may shut up this Section had you considered how this Queriâ— is retorted by our Divines upon you I believe you would have spared it They ask where your Present Romish Religion as now it stands was before the council of Trent which was confirmed by Pope Pius the fourth Anno 1564. long after Luthers death Our Divines know that there were many corruptions in the Church of Rome before the Council of Trent against which the Waldenses the Wicklevists the Hussits Luther and others did witnes But the question now is Whether the then Church of Rome mantained all the points of Religion as necessary to Salvation which
PAPISMUS LUCIFUGUS OR A faithfull Copie of the Papers exchanged betwixt Mr. IOHN MENZEIS Professor of DIVINITY in the Marischal-Colledge of ABERDENE and Mr. Francis Dempster Iesuit otherwise Sirnamed Rin or Logan WHEREIN The Iesuit declines to have the truth of Religion examined either by Scripture or Antiquity though frequently appealed thereunto AS ALSO Sundry of the chief Points of the Popish Religion are demonstrated to be repugnant both to Scripture and Antiquity yea to the Ancient Romish-Church TO ALL WHICH Is premised in the Dedication a true Narration of a verball Conference with the same Iesuit Tit. 1.10.11 There are many unruly and vain Talkers and Deceivers Whos 's mouths must be stopped who subvert whole houses teaching things which they ought not for filthy Lucres sake Aug. lib. 2. de Bapt. con Don. cap. 6. Non afferamus stateras delosas ubi appendamus quod volumus quomodo volumus pro arbitriâ— nostro dicentes hoc grave hoc leve est Sed afferamus divinaâ—â— stateram de Scripturis sanctis tanquam de the sauris Dominicis in illa quid sit gravius appendamus Immo â—on appendamus sed a Domino appensa recognoscamus ABERDENE Printed by IOHN FORBES Younger Printer to the TOVVN Anno Dom. M.DC.LXVIII BON ACCORD Insignia Vrbis abredoniae Unto the Right Honorable M R. ROBERT PATRIE of PORTLETHEN Lord Provest Bailies ALEXAND R. ALEXANDER IOHN SCOT IOHN DUNCAN IOHN SMITH ANDREW SKENE Dean of Gild GILBERT BLACK Treasurer And to the rest of the honorable COUNCILL of ABERDENE RIGHT HONORABLE It was not any supposed Worth in these Papers which moved me to consent to the publishing of them But because our Romish Adversaries had the confidence openly to triumph in City and Country though I hope without ground as if their Champion Master Dempster had left not me only which had been no great matter but also the Religion of PROTESTANTS at a great losse and disadvantage Who Who am I the meanest of the thousands of ISRAEL that any infirmities of mine whether supposed or reall should be charged on so GLORIOUS a CAUSE which is the invincible Truth of the Most High GOD may bid a defyance to all the Goliahs and Hoasts of Romish Philistins Hath not the Reformed Religion stood as an impregnable Rock against all the assaults both of Speculative and Pragmatick heads and bloody hands which have been kept at worke these many years in opposition thereto by the See of Rome Who then that is but one remove from madnesse can imagine that the insignificant scufle of this Iesuit should endanger it I freely confesse what I have said or can say is infinitly below the dignity of the CAUSE which I mantaine yea and exceedingly short of what eminent Lights in the Reformed Churches have said and can further say in behalfe of our Religion Must it not argue either height of prejudice or pitifull shallowness to impute whatsoever deficiencies of such an one as Me to Religion it self Wherefore Reverend Learned Pious Iudicious Persons with whome I did communicate all these Papers when they were exchanged have judged it sit that all should be faithfully published that the World might have a new demonstration on how small grounds to say no worse our clamorous Romanists can triumph as if they were more then conquerours Well may that saying of Austin in Psalm 32. Be accommodated to them Non remanet iis nisi sola infirmitas animositatis quae tanto est languidior quanto se majores vires habere aestimat There only support is the infirmity of an high or overweening stomach which is so much the more feeble as it overvalueth its own strength It hath been the usuall artifice of Hereticks when they could not conquer Truth by their captious argueings to load the assertors thereof with reproaches Austin complained of such dealing both from Pascentius a champion of the Arrians tom 2. Epist. 174. As also from the Donatists tom 7. in Epist ad Donatist post collat What wonder then though Romanists who are so Hereticall in their Doctrines be Acted by the same Calumniating Genius Learned Doctor Prideaux lect 9. de visib Eccles § 11. Hath been at the paines to present his Reader with a multitude of instances of most impudent Calumnies wherewith Romanists have aspersed faithfull witnesses of truth I will not rake in that dung-hil Only let me remember you that Romish practises of this nature were long agoe so known to the World that learned Doctor Featly before that he and Doctor Francis Whyte engaged in their disput with Fisher and Sweet two Iesuits could easily presage and foretell to the pitcher of the field that whatever were the issue of that combat and at whatever disadvantage the Iesuits should be left yet he and his Colegue Doctor Whyte should be conquered in effigie and led in triumph in many a Pageant at Doway Bruxels Rhemes and Rome as afterwards fell out Yea so impudent were the Romanists that Doctor Weston told at Sainct Omers to a Protestant Lord who had been present at the disput viz. to the Earle of Warwick that the two Iesuits had acquitted themselves so admirably well and with so much advantage to the Romish interest that two Earles and an hundreth Auditors were gained to the Church of Rome and of these Earles this noble Lord to whom the Doctor spake was affirmed to be one who could not but smyle as these ludibrious Legends For the Earle well knew there were not near an hunder persons present at the Conference nor one PROTESTANT staggered thereby Yea the person for whose satisfaction that conference was principally intended though before he had his own doubts yet after the debate professed that he was fully resolved as to the Reformed Religion All this is testified by judicious Doctor Featly in the Relation of that Conference Should it then seem strange to any that the tristing debate wherein I have been lately engaged with this Iesuit hath been so grosly misrepresented by men of these principles Who could have expected any thing else Doe men gather grapes of Thorns or Figs of Thistles Yet as to my own particular interest I could have borne all their reproaches remembring that of the Ancient Quisquis volens detrahit famae meae nolens addit mercedi meae But judicious Lovers of Truth finding Religion it self to be thrust at through my sides laid bonds upon me to give the World a faithfull account of that whole transaction though otherwise I could willingly have destined these poor Papers so farre as they concerned me to perpetuall silence Since therefore Very Honorable this scufle with Mr. Dempster fell out under the intuition of your Authority I judged it incumbent to me to present you with this brief ensuing account thereof As you in your Civil Capacity and we your Ministers in our Ecclesiastick Lyne travelled to suppresse Error and Vngodlynesse in this CITY We had frequent opportunity to deal with Persons of a Popish perswasion When we
found in it Yet what scurrilous and dung-hil eloquence the Iesuit useth in his next Paper vvithout any provocatioÌ„ is obvious to any Reader But next I appeale to all rationall Persons vvho shall peruse these Papers vvhether he gives not just cause for smart Language by his nauseating Repetitions shameful Preteritions and impudent Calumnies for vvhat I knovv vvithout a parrallel In so much that sometimes he vvould inscribe his Papers vvith a splendid Calumny affirming that I had disovvned all vvhich I had said before So he did in his sixth Paper When these his Papers were disseminated among the Popish Proselyts without my Answeres who tooke all the Iesuits bold Assertions for Oracles and were ready thereupon to clamour through the Country would not such dealing have moved the Choler of a Person of ordinary Meeknesse It was the saying of a great Iurist Non irasci ob eas causas I ob quas irasci oporteat stultoruâ—â— est Yea Aristotle affirmes it to be an Act of meeknesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Plutarch was not afraid to say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Yet if either Master Dempster or any for him will hereafter prosecut this Debate in a Rationall and Civill way they may be assured of as Courteous and Civil Entertainment as they shall give But leaving these things I have made bold to superscribe your HONOURS NAMES to these Papers Your known Affection to the True Reformed RELIGION and your zeale for promoting the wel-fare of this Famoâ—â— CITY the Happynesse whereof is more wrapt up in the Interest of Religion then in any Earthly concerne suffer me not once to doubt of your Willingnesse to undertake the Patrociny of the Truths herein asserted The Obligations are so many and so great which ly upon me from this CITY and from the MAGISTRATS and COUNCIL'L thereof especially these twenty and one yeares last bygone wherein I have been through Mercy officiating though weakly in the publick Ministry of the Gospel among you beside the Personall respects which I owe to your selves who at present doe possess the Chair that you may justly challenge a Proprietie in all my performances It is therefore become a Probleme with me whether this poor Present which I humbly tender to you ought not more properly to be termed the Payment of a just Debt then a SYMBOL of GRATITUD But under whatsoever notion you shall be pleased to accept of it I shall surely be the more deeply addebted to you I adde no more only the GOD of all Grace and Truth rebuke a Spirit of Errour Prophanesse and Idolatry which hath Alas fermented too too many in this Place That this City may become a City of Righteousnes a Faithful City wherein Mercy and Truth may meet together Righteousnes and Peace may kisse each other and the Cognizance thereof may be IEHOVAH SH AMM AH The LORD is there I conclude with that Apostolical supplication in behalf of you our Governours The very GOD of Peace sanctifie you wholly I pray GOD your whole Spirit Soul and Boâ—â—â—e preserved blamelesse unto the comming of our LORD IESVS CHRIST So prayeth he who is YOVR HONOVRS In all humble observance Iohn Menzeis To the Impartial READER BEside the historical account of this affair given in the Dedication I have yet some few things whereof to advertise thee Know therefore that necessity and not choyse did put â—e upon this whole undertaking I was provoked by solemne challenges first to a vocal debate then to exchange of Papers and lastly by insolent clamours to the publishing of all I believe no discreet Person will ascribe this appearance in Print to vanity For I acknowledge the debate is inglorious the Papers which I had to examine being so very insignificant I may indeed be blamed for wasting Oyle and Paines to confute such tristes But Mr. Dempster and what dropped from his mouth or pen how frivolous so ever were so admired I had almost said adored by our Romish Apostats that had I not answered him and published both his Papers and mine I should have been judged by many as wanting in duty to the PROTESTANT Interest Who in such an exigence would not rather submit to have his labour censured as unnecessary then to be deemed unfaithful to the Truth T 's true on whose worke had been only to state Controversies and to argue pro and con might have said more in a very few sheets for the satisfaction of an ingenuous lover of truth then is said in all these Papers But I have been constrained to follow the anomalous motion of a tautologizing Iesuits Who could never be induced to speake to any particular Controversie Sundry times I stated Controversies and hinted at impugnations of Romish Doctrines but could prosecute nothing unlesse I would fight with my own shadow for the Adversary had not the confidence to speake to any particular And besides these Papers were not at first designed for the presse but as privat missives to give a check to a petulant Caviller Many things may passe in privat missives which are hardly tolerable in tractats designed at the first contrivance for publick use So true is that saying Aliud est uni scribere aliud omnibus More of my worke stood in discovering the prevarications of the Iesuit then in canvasing his Arguments This readily will not have so savoury a rellish with thee yet I hope it will be judged excusable in me when the circumstantiated case wherein I stood is considered However to compense this losse I intended by way of an Appendix to have added some Arguments against the Popish Religion As First from its direct Contrariety to cleare Scriptures in many weighty points 2. From its Novelty and Dissonancy from the faith of the Ancient Church notwithstanding the vain and deceitful pretences of Romanists to Antiquity 3. From the manifold and grosse Idolatry established thereby 4. From its Contrariety to Catholick Vnity and the Schismatical constitution of the present Romish Church though Romanists have the confidence to glory as if they were the only Catholicks 5. From the Impious reproaches which Romanists and the Present Romish Religion doe throw upon the Holy Scriptures 6. Because the Popish Religion is greatly injurious to the Satisfaction and Merits of our Blessed REDEEMER the LORD IESVS CHRIST 7. Because Poperie overturnes all certainty of divine faith or rather to use the expression of learned Mr. Pool who hath given a blow at the root of the Romish Church because of the Nullitie of divine faith in the Romish Religion 8. Because many of the Principles of Popery have a manifest tendency to practical ungodlynesse and particularly Iesuits who are as it were the soul of the present Court and Church of Rome and the chief Emissaries for promoting the Romish Interest doe mantain principles opposit to sound Christianity and Mordlity Yea there is scarce one Command in the Decalogue whereof grosse and impious â—olations are not justifyed by these Men I whereof a considerable account is
then apologize for me One Objection must needs be removed It may be asked how I doe charge the Iesuit as declyning to have the truth of Religion either examined by Scripture or Antiquity seeing he profers at lest to have one Controversie examined by Scripture Viz. concerning the number of Sacraments But let any rational person though a Romanist if he can but dispossesse his own mind of prejudice cognosce whether my Charge be just How disingenuous the Iesuit was in that seeming profer concerning the number of Sacraments is sufficiently discovered in my Reply to his tenth paper from page 236. to page 241. Now only let these few particulars be considered And 1. When did the Iesuit make this profer Only in his tenth or last paper imeÌ„diatly before his getting out of the nation Why did he it not sooner especially seeing we had been exchanging papers above a year before and he had been frequently appealed to a discusse of particular Controversies Did he not in former papers positively decline to have the truth of Religion examined either by Scripture or Antiquity By Scripture because as he affirmes paper 4. pag. 37. The letter of Scripture is capable of divers yea contrary senses and there is no Religion so false but pretends that the tenets of it are conforme to the letter of Scripture By Antiquity also because sayeth the Iesuit paper 5. page 61 This with as great reason may be assumed by any Christian false Religion Yea doth he not charge me as hatching a new Religion of my own because I appealed to the Fathers of the three first Centuries in his 9. paper page 178. Now what ingenuity or courage is manifested by such a seeming profer at such a time after so many declinaturs ingenuous Romanists may judge But secondly Had there not been weighty Controversies tabled before viz. Concerning the Infallibility of Popes and Councils the Perspicuity and Perfection of the Scriptures Transubstantiation Adoration of Images Communion under one kinde Papal indulgences Apocrypha bookes the Popes Supremacie over the whole Catholick Church and his Jurisdiction over Princes Yea had it not been shewed as the breviry of missives would permit that the Church of Rome doth grosly erre in all these Yet never did he offer to Reply to any of these Let Romanists therefore againe judge whether he who passes over in silence all Arguments both from Scripture and Antiquity to prove the present Romish Religion erronious in all the foresaid particulars and only starts a new Question about the number of Sacraments doeth shew a through willingnesse to have the Truth of Religion tryed either by Scripture or Antiquity Thirdly If there he any Controversie tossed betwixt Rom mists and us where a cavilling Sophister may wrap himself up under Logomachies is not this it which the Iesuit hath pitched upon coÌ„cerning the number of Sacraments Must it not be acknowledged on all hands that as the word Sacrament is taken in a larger or stricter sense a man may affirme that ther be more or fewer Sacraments But of this you may see more at length in the Aâ—swere to the Jesuits tenth paper page 238. and 239. Let it be then considered how willing the Jesuit was of a Scriptural tryal who dates not adventure on the examination of other Controversies and only betaks himself to this wherein the Adversarie may shut himself up in a thicker of Logomachies But fourthly Doth the Jesuit really profer to have that on Controversie concerning the number of Sacraments betwixt Papists and us decyded by Scripture Or doth he bring Arguments from Scripture to prove a precise Septenary of proper Sacraments neither more nor fewer which is the Doctrine of the Present Romish Church Nor at all What then Only that he might seeme to say something he desires me to prove from Scripture that there be only two Sacraments or that there be no more then two which is in very deed to require me to prove the Negative while he himself declynes to prove the Affirmative viz. That there is not only more then two but compleatly seven Though the Iesuits demand be irrational I hope I have satisfied it in its own proper place But what though I had succumbed in proving that there were no more but two proper Sacraments Yet the question betwixt Romanists and us concerning the number of Sacraments were not decyded except it be proven that there be precisely seven neither more nor fewer If there be not a precise septenary one Article of the Romish faith falls to the ground Consequently the Iesuit never submits the Question concerning the number of Sacraments to a Scriptural tryal untill he offer to prove by Scripture a precise sepetenary of proper Sacraments which as yet he hath not done nor I believe will adventure to doe He will find need of the supplement of his unwriten traditions here But neither I suppose will these serve his turne But Fifthly what are all these ensuing papers but a demonstration of the Iesuits tergiversing humor In his first paper he proposed foure postulata like so many Oracles I discovered an egregious fallacy in one of them But to this day he never once endeavoured to vindicat himself He proposed in that paper an informal Syllogisme but could never thereafter adventure on a second which was retorted in better forme against the Popish Religion more wayes then one but these Retortions to this houre remaine unexamined I denyed the Assumption of that long studied Syllogisme but he could never be induced to undertake the probation thereof In that Assumption the Iesuit had said that the PROTESTANT Religion had no grounds to prove its conformity with the letter of Scripture To repell that bold allegeance I appealed him to produce any solid ground of conformity with Scripture which either the True Christian Religion hath or that the Popish Religion can pretend to which the Religion of PROTESTANTS wants But he could never be moved to produce any Sometimes he hinted at the Infallibility of the Propounders of the Articles of Faith but he durst neither adventure to tell whom he meant by these Infallible Propounders or to prove the Infallibility of Romish Propounders or to answere Arguments against their Infallibility At length being outwearied with his tergiversing I produced positive Grounds for proving the conformity of our Religion to the Scriptures and the disconformity of theirs viz. The Perspicuity of the Scriptures in all things necessarie and Conformitie with the faith of the Ancient Church in the first three Centuries Hereupon he positively declyned both Scriptures and Fathers in these first three Centuries as a test to find out the Truth of Religion Therefore finding that still he shunned to come to particulars I pirched upon that much controverted Scripture which Romanists pretend to be as favourable to them as any viz Hoc est Corpus meum This is my Body and proved the sense which PROTESTANTS give thereof to be True and Genuine and the sense which Romanists impose to
whol structure of your Syllogisme which is the marrow of al you have hitherto said You have bestowed many years if my information fail not in studying this your rare Syllogisme Could you not in all that space have put it In modo figura But it seemes you will take as many years to prove either the Major or the Minor thereof But so much hath been said to these things before that now I shall adde no more least I should seeme Cum Batto balbutire In my first three Papers I required you to prove the Assumption of your Syllogisme But this like a Thersites you still declined which I could not but looke upon as an evidence that you succumbed in your probation I did likewise appeal you to produce a ground of the true Christian Religion which doth not agree to the Religion of PROTESTANTS But neither durst you adventure upon any Hereupon I might have turned my back upon you as a smattering fellow wholly incapable to mantaine a Theological debate But to render you the more inexcusable and to convince all to whose hands these Papers may come how desirous I was to have the truth examined I condescended Ex superabundanti though not tyed thereto by rules of disputing to produce in my fourth Paper Two irrefragable grounds by which the truth of Religion may be examined Viz The perspicuity of the Scripture in all things necessary to Salvation And Conformity with the faith of the most Ancient Christian Church Hereupon I have urged with all the earnestnesse I could in my Fourth fifth and sixth Papers that both your Religion and ours might be brought to these Tests and examined thereby namely both by Scripture and Antiquity But you like one who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 self condemned knowing in your conscience that it is a wicked cause which you doe mantaine have still declined And the scop of this your seventh Paper is yet to decline the examination of Religion by either of these grounds But Veritas non quaerit angulos It is he who doth evill that hates the light Joh. 3.21 Yet have you the impudencie in this your Seventh Paper to say that after many toes and froes now I have produced two grounds as if either I had delivered some inconsistencies or had been driven to produce these grounds by force of your arguments or that now only in my last Paper these grounds had been first produced All which are manisest untruths Is this your gratitude to him who had so liberally gratified you with the production of these grounds When you were clearly at a Nonplus The two grounds which I produced I did prove in my Fourth Paper to be solid and sufficiently distinctive of the true Religion from a false and from them I did demonstrate the truth of our Religion and the falshood of yours for Rectum est sui obliqui Index but you have not once dared to examine these arguments While therefore you hold on in this your tergiversing way it might be enough for me to say to you with the Poet Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua Ought you not either to acquiesce to these Grounds produced by me or to produce others more solid especially you being the Opponent But yet once more I offer against you to disput the truth of our Religion both from Scripture and Antiquity and shall withall examine the scurvie pellucid and tergiversing evasions which you have made use of in this your seventh Paper You repeat here againe your three cavils against The Perspicuity of Scripture in all things necessary to Salvation or rather your three cowardly subterfuges to decline a Scriptural tryal but without any confirmation deserving a review I should the more patiently have borne with these taudologies had you been pleased for clearing the state of the controversie betwixt you and us to have delivered the judgement of your Romish Church concerning the Perspicuity of the Scripturs I told you the judgement of PROTESTANTS and shew you how they are injured by your writers I required you with the like plainness to set down the judgement of your Romish Church and the rather because your Authors are found to be inconsistent with one another in this matter And though I have looked upon your ablest Controversists namelie Bellarmin lib. 3. De verbo Dei cap. 1. Gretser In defensione capitis primi libri tertii Bellarmin De verbo Dei and Stapleton lib. 10. De principijs fidei cap. 3. Yet can I not find one Canon of a Council produced by any of them as to this particular Would they not have done it if they had any Doe you not manifest to the World you play the jugler when you dare not adventure to tell the judgement of the Romish Church even in that against which you doe so eagerly cavil You think you have disgraced all that I have writen by calling it A heap of digressions copied out of controversie bookes I find you indeed still better at calumniating then at arguing If my Paper did containe any impertinent Digressions why doe you not particularize them But I have already unfolded the Mysterie That which you cannot answere must be branded as a Digression to palliat your ignorance I acknowledge I have improven against you somewhat of the writings of Ancients of Schoolmen and of modern Coutroversists both of your side and of ours nor am I hereof ashamed This I hope is not the base Plagiarie trade which I leave to your Iesuits as being better acquainted with stealing other mens Papers Have you not heard how your famous Iesuis Antony Possevin did steal from Doctor Iames a learned PROTESTANT his Cyprianus redivivus and put it in his great Apparatus under his own name for which you may find how sharply he is chastised by Doctor Iames in his excellent treatise concerning The corruption of Scriptures Councils and Fathers by the Prelats Pastors and Pillars of the Church of Rome Part. 2. page 9.10 Goe trace backe all the Papers which I have sent to you and see if you can fix any such trespasse upon me As for you I confesse we have no cuase yet to accuse you of ripping up the bowels of many Authors All the Authority wherewith you have hitherto loaded us is Master Dempsters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You need not fear that any thing which as yet hath come frō you will be standered as Olens lucernam you onely ramble out any fleeing tergiversing Shifts that come first In buccam as a man who minded not to dive into the controversie However once yet as I have said I will trace your footsteps In your first Cavill you alleadge that The Perspicuity of the Scripturs cannot serve as a distinctive character of the Religion of PROTESTANTS from a false except I first prove that the PROTESTANTS have the true letter and translation and true sense of the letter To which you say I answered nothing but remitted you to our PROTESTANT Authors Here we
is now guiltie of the impertinent Digression you or I the Reader may judge All the colour you could put upon this shameless and cowardly tergiversing is That it seemes say you These large discourses of mine are copied out of controversie Writers But why would not you copie an Answere thereto out of your controversie Writers Why at least doe you not name The Authors with whom I had made so bold Especially I having in my last given a particular instance of the Plagiary trade of Jesuits and appealed you if you could to convict me of the like cryme If you put me to it I will rip up yet more of their sores of this nature Could the confutation of all your Papers in Two Words be copied from any Author But I had so brow-beaten this cavil before that like a self condemned Malefactor who to use Tertullians phrase is Acorde suo fugitivus you dare not now positively affirme it only say you It seems But I wil deale more squarely with you You not onely seeme but really are an effronted calumniator If you take ill with this freedome learne henceforth to affirme no more then you are able to prove Had it not been to cleare a little of the matter of Fact against these your lying representations of the first occasion of this debate I had not denzied a returne to this your impertinet Paper wherein you have not answered one word that was replyed to you But I am the rather moved to examine these your calumnies because it is long since I heard that Scurvie Lybels to this purpose were disseminated by persons of your professioÌ„ and now I find that by this your Paper you doe homologate the same reproaches Yet no to notice these diffamatorie Pasquils which no man durst owne I shall at the time only discover the falshood of some few of your allegeances in this your Eight Paper And First you say That this debate was occasioned by our continual railing against your pretended Catholick Religion As if it were our custome to charge your Religion falsly with these things which you doe not mantaine A great crime I acknowedge if it were a truth But why did you not for the satisfaction of the Reader and our conviction instance some of these falshoods Doe you not hereby manisest the calumniating genius by which you have been acted all along Know therefore that we PROTESTANTS hold it not lawful to lie for GOD. Job 13.7 The truth of GOD needs not mens lies to support it Did I see that the PROTESTANT cause could not be mantained without calumnies and falshoods I should instantly disowne it as not being of GOD. I reckone it my mercie that I have been helped in some measure to give a faithful testimony against the Abominations of Poperie and wil account it my duety so to doe while I live I have inded said it from Pulpit and I hope I have also made it good that your Romish Doctors have corrupted much both of the Dogmaticals and Practicals of Christianity And what I have said herein I shall be readie through the grace of GOD to mantaine not onely against such an Ignoramus as you but the whole unhallowed crew of Jesuits This hath been often charged upon you and demonstrated against you by our Divines But because I see you are not for large Volumes I shall remit you at present onely to a little but learned tractare to this purpose writen by Doctor Jeremy Taylor Entituled A Dissuasive from Poperie But what Doeth a Jesuit accuse us of Railing Doth not the World know that persidious lying and equivocation are the Piae fraudes the holy I should have said Hellish Chears whereby their cause is mantained Have they ever been able to wipe off those staines which Watson their own Romish secular Priest fixed upon their societie in so much that he is not afraid to say that Lucian Machiavel yea and Don Lucifer might goe to school and learne Satanical practises from your Jesuits And as for you is it not too too apparent by all these your Papers that you serve for nothing unlesse it be to rail and lie like a Shimet At arguing have you not proven according to the Proverb Quaesi asinus ad lyram Remember therefore that smart admonition Matth 7.5 Thou Hypocrite first cast the beame out of there own eye then shall thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brothers eye You are pleased Secondly to say That in stead of impugning your Catholick dogmes as you terme them We propound to the people and that in a radiculous manner so gravely forsoth doe you occuse us Problematick points out of your Casuists and Schoolmen If you Iesuits were not Persons Effrontis imprâ—bitatis linguae effrauis habituated in confident asserting of lies would you not have examined the truth of this report before you had given it under your hand Whether we behave our selves ridiculously in Pulpit grave Auditors can witnesse Indeed if the Supremacie of your Pope and the infallibility of your Church if your Transubstantiation and Sacrifice of the Masse it your Adoring of Images and invocating of Saincts and Angels if your Purgatorie and Praying for the Dead c. If these I say and such as these be the Problematick points you speake of Them I confesse we doe publickly propound and solidly confute If these be onely Problemes which a man may innoceÌ„tly affirme or deny why for opposing these doe you Romanists anathematize PROTESTANTS Why have you brunt so many of them alive and cruelly imbrewed your hands in the blood of so many thousands of them Sometimes I deny not occasions may occurre of speaking concerning the particular tenets of some of your Doctors But then judcious Hearers can beare us witnesse for we teach nothing in a corner that we no otherwayes represent these then as the judgement of such Doctors This appeared when I was confuting from Pulpit that impious tenet which I suppose is the Probleme you hint at of many of your Doctors That a sinner is not bound by the law of GOD immediatly after he hath sinued to repent For in Pulpit I did onely charge it upon many of your Doctors But though we be so ingenuous in representing the tenets of your Doctors I shall desire you to confider what a staine and reflexion these impious tenets of particular Doctors among you leave upon your Romish Church Are they not published with the approbation of your Authorised Licencers of books as containing nothing Contrary to the Catholick Faith Are either Authors or Licencers of the books censured by your Church Have not your Expurgatoris indices deleted much better stuffe in the writings boon of Ancient and Moderne Authors whereof you may find many examples in Doctor Iames his excellent booke of The corruption of Scriptures Councils and Fathers by the Prelats Pastors and Pillars of the Church of Rome part 4 But the impious tenets or your Casuists and Schoolmen stend uncensured with the
approbation of your Authorised Licencers to the eternal ignominy of your Church But Thirdly it appeared say you By the Conference betwixt us that we often propounded in Pulpit problematick points in stead of your Dogm's How so I pray you Was there nothing spoken of in that conference but of School-Problems Did I not conclude the impietie of your Romish Religion because it destroyes all certainty of divine faith from your Florentine and Tridentine Canons which suspend the efficacie of Sacraments from the intention of the Administrator For all certainty of divine faith according to you Is grounded upon the infallible assistance of your clergie But if Ordination which is one of your Romish Sacraments depend upon the intention of the Ordainer you can have no certainty of faith who are your Clergie men or who have this pretended Infallible assistance For how can you be certaine of other mens intētions To this you had not the confidence to make any Reply Can you say that this is a meer Problem Are the Canons of Councils problems with you Is it a Probleme among you whether that be an impious Religion which destroyes all certainty of faith But perhaps you will say There was another question tossed whether a man after he hath sinned be bound presently to repent I confesse and the sober Christian may judge how much that man differs from an Atheist who affirmes this to be a Problematick point Yet to put a stop to your lying misrepresentations concerning this particular I must crave leave to doe these two things I shall first give a true account how that Question concerning Repentance came to be moved at the Conference and in Order to this I must give a touch of the occasion of the Conference sit self Secondly I shall examine a little whether that point may justly be reckoned among Problems and how far it may be charged upon your Church of Rome You may readily exclaime on these discourses as Digressions but I am drawne to them by your Calumnies For the First the real occasion of that Conference and of moving that Question at the Conference was this In April last I received two challenges from a Gentle-Man of your profession The First was that I had wronged your Authors by affirming some dayes before in a Sermon concerning Repentance that many of your Doctors did mantaine That when people sinne they are not bound immediatly to repent Yea the Gentle-Man was so confident as to promise by the Messenger whome he sent to me that he would turne PROTESTANT if I would make good that my Assertion To whome I answered that I was sure of a convert if the Gentle-Man would stand to his promise and if he would come to my Studie his eyes should be judge whether my Assertion were true by reading their own Authors Some dayes after the Gentle-Man came to me not to have the truth of his former challeng examined but with a New provocation to me and to my Colegue Master MELDRVM who then was with me to debate at his Lodging with a Catholick scholer as his phrase was concerning the truth of the Religion of PROTESTANTS We told him we knew how conferences of that nature had been misrepresented by Papists and therefore to obviat such misrepresentations we condescended with him upon some Conditions of the meeting which you know were violated by your Party When we came after we had regrated the violation of promise made to us I told I had received the Two foresaid Challenges and desired you who there appeared as their Champion First to answere whether I had wronged your Authors in the forementioned Assertion concerning Repentance and then we should willingly disput the point of Religion not against you onely but against the whole Conclave of Rome if they had been there present To the First you refused to give an Answere and as to the Second you said You came onely to impugne the Religion of PROTESTANTS but not at all to answere arguments against your Romish Religion But it was Replyed to you that our Religion was not onely the truth of GOD but also was established by the Law of the Land and therefore we could not suffer it onely to be questioned in such a publick way But would you answere us Six arguments against Your Religion we should answere you other Six arguments against Ours Or would you answere us Two we should answere you other Two But you stifly denyed to answere at all till at length by the importunity of your friends you were moved to condescend to answere Yet as to the Matter of fact Concerning the Doctrine of Repentance you utterly refused to answere at al unlesse I would frame it in an Argument against Your Religion Wherefore to gaine time and to satisfie the Gentle-Man who had been my Accuser I framed an argument in more general termes concerning the Doctrine of Repentance then I had spoken thereof in Pulpit hoping to have had liberty thereafter to propound Other arguments of more general concernment against Your Religion The argument touching Repentance ran thus The religion which teacheth that a man when he hath sinned is not bound presently to repent is impious But the Popish religion teacheth that a man when he hath sinned is not bound presently to repent Ergo the Popish religion is impious You admitted the Minor and denyed the Major That it was an impious religion which so taught Whereupon I tooke all the Auditors to witnesse and in special the Gentle-Man who had been my Accuser that you admitted this to be the doctrine of the Romish Church That a man who hath sinned is not bound presently to repent And consequently that I had spoken truth when I affirmed from Pulpit that many of Your Romish Doctors taught this But now you being ashamed that you should have admitted such a Doctrine which all sober Persons are ready to cry down as impious to be the doctrine of the Church of Rome you have devysed this after-evasion to terme it a Problematick point Whether it ought to be looked upon as a probleme I may speake a little anone Now let the Reader observe This question concerning Repentance was onely moved by me to vindicat my self from the accusation of the Gentle-Man who had provoked me to the Disput hoping to have had occasion for Other Arguments afterwards And therefore when you had admitted the Assumption that is was the doctrine of Your Romish Church I would have left that argument as having obtained all by it which I intended Yea I did propound the argument in larger termes then I had spoken of that matter in the Pulpit onely to extort an Answere from you So that whether it be a Problematick point or not you could conclude nothing from it as to the ordinary straine of our preaching seeing you refused to speake to it in these termes wherein we delivered it in Pulpit Nay more whoever will terme this point a Probleme yet you are not In bonâ fide to doe it
that your Romish Church like an old Whoore doth still wax worse and worse How often have our Divines demonstrated that your Romish Church is much more corrupt and grosse in her Tenets since the Council of Trent then before Doe not we know how often you set at nought Old Doctors when they agree not with the principles of your Present Papal faction Hence your Jesuit Escobar Tom. 1. theol moral in praeloq cap. 2. num 8. frequenter accidit sayeth he ut quae opinio paucis ab hinc annis in â—su non erat mode communi consensu recipiatur è contra Yea though you doe vainly brage of your Unity how few points of controversie are there betwixt you and us wherein you are not sub-divyded amongst your selves You may find this learnedly made out by Doctor Morton in his Appeale for PROTESTANTS out of the confession of Roman Doctors I will give you but one Instance at the present Your Papal indulgences are one of your now received Romish articles and yet some of your Ancient Doctors mantained them to be but Pias fraudes meere impostures So our of your Aquinas testifyeth Gregorie de Valentia lib. de indulg cap. 2. It may be Objected secondly That your Jesuit Escobar hath disputed may safely goe away he is not bound to doe it but may without sinne kill the man who intends to strick him though but lightly or if the Priest be consulted by another that over-reaches in his passion he may flatter him declaring with the same Tolet. Lib. 4. cap. â—3 num 4. That if a man be in a great passion so transported that he considers not what he sayes if in that case he doth blaspheme his blasphemie is not mortal sinne So may the Priest sooth them who commit horrid crimes in their drunkenness with the foresaid Cardiual Tolet. lib. 5. cap. 10. num 3. That if a man be beastly drunk and then commit fornieation that formeation is not sinne Yea he may with the same Cardinal lib. 5. cap. 13. num 2. Declare that if a man desires carnal pollution that he may evite carnal temptations or for his health it were no sinne Time would fail me in reckoning out such Probable nay Damnable Doctrines of your Casuists according to which your Confessors can determine exceeding many cases sutable to the inclination of the party with whome they have to doe either according to their own opinion or according to the opinion of some other Grave Doctor And what ever is delivered according to a probable opinion may be warrantably practised though there be another more probable Quaelibet opinio probabilis tutam reddit conseâ—entiam in operando sayeth your Escobar Tom. 1. Theol. Moral lib. 2. Sect. 1 cap. 2. num 22. Now shall your Casuists be permitted to introduce such unheard of impieties into the World by the pretended authoritie of Out grave Doctor without check or controll Shall their Problematick decisions warrand such shavelings as you to encourage lewd persons to murther their Neighbour blaspheme GOD violat womens chastity and cut off Princes for to that purpose also they have many Problematick decisions and when we oppose these impieties shall we be rated as ridiculous Railers Doth your Church of Rome thinke to wash her hands in innocency as if she were not guilty of these impious decisions because they are not ratified by the decree of a General Council What I pray you bath she decreed against them Your Religion at least is such with which all these impieties are wel consistent There is nothing in your Religion repugnant to them But besides are not these Casuistick tractats writen by your gravest Doctors in the face of the Sun under the Popes nose Is not this pernicious doctrine of Probables publickly avouched and known among you Yea are not these bookes approven by your authorised Licencers who are intrusted to looke Ne fides Ecclesiae detrimenti aliquid patiatur Your Church therefore will never be able to vindicat her self either before GOD or rational Men from being an abettor of these impieties Nay this leaves an undenyable conviction upon the consciences of your own authors in so much that Dominicus a Soto cited by Doctor Taylor in his Dissuaesive cap. 2. sect 1. I am so fat from stealing as often times doe your Jesuits that I ingenuously tell you when I have not a booke by me sayeth Non ilico ut â—â—mo se reum sentit culpae paenitentiae lege paenitere constringitur Haec profecto conclusie more usu Ecclesiae satis videtur constabilita Where he charges your Church with this Prophans doctrinâ— which hardens men in impenitencie But of this enough for the time After your impertinent and calumnious Digression concerning the first occasion of our Debate and your Problematick points for my worke in all these eight Papers hath been to follow a roving Vagrant from one impertinencie to another you claver to as little purpose concerning the sense of holy Scripture Before say you that our Religion be proven from Scripture it must be first proven that we PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture But First Ought you not remember that in this writen debate you doe sustaine the part of the Opponent might it not therefore be better retorred upon you thus Before you prove that the PROTESTANTS have not the True Religion you ought first to prove that they have not the true sense of Scripture And may it not be a convinceing argument Ad Hominem against you that PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture and consequently the True Religion seeing in all these Eight Papers you who appeared as the Romish Champion to disprove the Religion of PROTESTANTS have not been able to produce one Medium to prove the falshood of their Religion or of their sense of holy Scripture But it seems that you would willingly forget that you are the Opponent I wonder nothing that you who turne the weighty points of the Law to Problems should make a Probleme of this matter of fact how evident so ever it be So miserably have you discharged the Opponents office that you may truely be ashamed to owne it But SecoÌ„dly Could I make fairer proffers to you then I have done Have I not offered to disput whether PROTESTANTS have the True Religion and the true sense of Scripture both by Intrinsick Arguments from the Series of the context of Scripture from parallel places and the analogie of faith as also by a more Extrinsick test namely the conformity of Religion with the faith of the most Ancient Christian Church But as a perfect Coward who distrusted your cause you durst adventure on neither of these Nay all your cavils which once you started against both these grounds such as a catalogue of necessaries rules of interpretation of Scripture c. I have so convinceingly confuted that you have not dated once to mention them againe in this your last Paper Yea Thirdly Flave I not gone a further length and
though I was onely the Defendant yet being out-wearied by your Cowardlynesse Have I not demonstrated that in sundrie chief points of controversie such as the Perspicuity and perfection of Scripture the fallibility of Popes and Councils and in the matter of transubstantiation that the PROTESTANTS had the right and true sense of Scripture and that you Romanssts were in the trespasse But you as a Catholick Doctor have one Catholicon by which you coufute all that your Adversarie objects namely by calling it a Digression for with that Reply you have satisfied your self throughout all your Papers Onely as to the last Specimen which I gave you concerning Transubstantiation you think you come off with honour by saying That it savours of what I taught my Scholars this last year Are not you a brave Champion indeed who are as afraid of an Argument that hath beene handled in the Schools as you would be of a Crocodile What sport would your men have made had our Whitaker Iunius Chamier and Danaaus declined to examine Bellarmins arguments because he had handled them before in that Colledge where he was Professor But whereas you say That the Argument which I brought against your transubstantiation seems to have beene the summe of all that I taught in the School this last year you shall know that I have not been accustomed to such laziness as to drone whole years like you upon one Syllogisme As in these forementioned particulars I have demonstrated that PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture and not you the same might be showen in all the rest of the points of controversie betwixt you and us and hath beene abundantly done by our Divines But to propose more Arguments to you is but Margaritas porco projicere For it would seeme you dare graple with none of them Fourthly I must advertise you of a Radical error which leades you into many more For you seeme still to suppose that who ever are a true Church must have one general ground from which the truth of all the points of Religion which such a society doe owne may be demonstrated without an examination of particulars And this if I mistake not is your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which leades you into all the rest of your errors And therefore you still wave the examination of particulars and call for such a general ground But in this you show extreame basenesse that you neither prove the necessity of such a Principle nor yet produce that Principle by which your and our Religion is to be examined Only you insist still upon one general false Hypothesis as if it were an undenyable Axiom and a Datum Whereas in very truth a true Church may mantaine the fundamentals of Christianity and yet alas have the Tares of some errors mingled with the Wheat as is largely demonstrated by our Divines in that Question Num Ecclesia possit errare And therfore there is not one General Ground to be expected proving that all the points of Religion mantained by such a society are truth without examining particulars And this may be strongly confirmed Ad Hominem against you For if there were any such Commone Ground it would be the Infallibility of your Propounders but not this as I have proven in my former Papers Nay I have so soundly cudgelled this your Romish principle in my Last that you durst not once mention it in this your Eight Paper How ever if there be any ground which you suppose to prove the truth of Religion as a Test which none can justly decline I appeale you to produce it and I undertake by the helpe of GOD to show that either it is a false ground or else that it agrees to the PROTESTANT Religion Fifthly this Assertion of yours That before we câ—in prove the truth of our Religion from Scripture we ought first to prove that we have the true sense of Scripture had need of a very favourable and benigne interpretation else it is perfect non-sense and a very contradiction For if you meane by our having the true sense of Scripture that our ReligioÌ„ is contained in Scripture as the true sense thereof intended by the holy Ghost then if we must prove that we have the true sense of Scripture before we prove that we have the True Religion we must prove we have the true ReligioÌ„ before we prove that we have the true Religion A noble stick of Romish non-sense Sixthly how easie were it to demonstrate against you Romanists that we PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture seeing in most of all the Positives of our Religion you doe agree with us as that there is a GOD that he is to be adored and that there are three Persons c. Consequently The PROTESTANTS sense of Scripture must be the true sense else your Religion cannot be true You must either acknowledge that vve have the true sense of Scripture or condemne your ovvn Religion The chief controversie that remaines betvvixt you and us is concerning your Supernumerarie Additions as vvhether not onely GOD is to be adored but also Images and Crosses and not onely GOD is to be invocated but also Saincts and Angels c. That is vvhether there be so many more Supernumerarie senses of Scripture besides those vvhich PROTESTANTS mantaine and you Papists dare not deny Whether I say besides these there be other senâ—es of Scripture mantained by you Romanists and denyed by us Ought not you then to prove these your Supernumerarie senses And are not vve sufficiently vvarranted to adhere to the Negative except there be solid grounds for these Superadded sexses vvhich I beleeve neither you nor the vvhole sâ—lb of Jesuits shall be able to shovv though you get a superaddition of all Lucifers Acumen But Seventhly and Lastly Seeing nothing will satisfie you unlesse I though onely the Defendant doe also prove against you the Negative that is that not onely Our sense of Scripture is true but also that these Your superadded and supernumerarie senses are not true therefore to draw you if it be possible our of your lurking holes I will try you by this Argument The sense of Scripture given by your present Romish Church in many things contradicts the sense given by the Ancient Romish Church Ergo the sense put upon Scripture by your Present Romish Church in many things cannot be true The Sequel is cleare because two contradictories cannot be true If therefore you confesse that the Ancient Romish Church had the true sense of Scripture which ye must doe or else destroy the great foundation of your Religion namely the pretended Infallibility of the Church of Rome in all ages then wherein you contradict the Ancient Romish Church therein surely you deviat from the true sense of Scripture It remaines therefore onelie that I confirme the Antecedent which I doe by a few cleare Instances Instance first Your present Romish Church mantains that Images are to be adored Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by the
Christian Religion to dilate upon Pedantick notions more proper for School-Boyes then Divines But suppose you had discussed it utterly there remaine other Six answeres which you have never once touched I proceed now to that which you call my Second Answere wherein you bring me in answering That it appears that we have the true sense of Scripture because our sense is conforme to the sense of the Fathers of the first three Centuries I know not whether to call this a Delirium or a Dreame For in that Eight and Last Paper of mine to which only you now answere there is no mention of the Fathers in the First three Centuries I had indeed upon another occasion in some former Papers offered to examine the truth of Religion by conformity to the faith of the Church in these three Centuries and had so confuted all your objections against that Test that in your Last you had made no Reply thereto Wherefore in My last I onely insinuated some challenges for your â—ergiversing speaking nothing to that particular but brought not in this Directly as an Answere to this Cavill of yours But though you in your Reply stagger like a Drunken-man going back and fore leaping from one Paper to another yet because in a Former Paper I was willing to have tryed whether our Religion or yours be the true Catholick Religion By examining the conformity thereof with the faith of the Ancient Church in the first threee hundred years I doe stand to it and shall examine what you Reply hereto First then you say That I resile from Calvine our foundator who disclaimed the Fathers in many things and taxed them of erros and so did other Reformers harp upon this string that the doctrines of the Fathers should be examined be the Scriptures But First how call you Calvine our foundator Were not ZUINGLIUS LVTHER OECOLAMPAIUS MELANCHTON c. Prior to CALVINE Were not HIIROM of Prague and IOHN HUS whome your Council of Constance did treacherously murther before these And WICKLEF before them And the Waldenses prior to him Of whome your Friar Reyner cited by Morney in Myster Iniq. edit 2. pag. 731. gave this testimony That the Waldenses continued from the days of Pope Sylvester yea some say sayeth Reyner from the Apostles dayes How absord then are you to call Calvine our foundator Nay come to the Tryall and if our Religion be found of latter standing then since the dayes of the Apostles I will disclaime it For I assent to Tertullian lib. 4. contra Marcion cap. 5. Id verius quod prius id prius quod ab initio id ab initio quod ab Apostolis But Secondly why charge you Calvine as taxing the Fathers with some errors Who have been more liberall in the Censures of the Fathers then you Romanists Take a few instances Bell. lib. 1. De Beatitud Sanct. cap. 6. after he had objected to himself the testimonies of Iustine Martyr Irenaus Epiphanius c. answeres Eorum sententiam non video quo pacto possimus ab errore defendere Maldonat the Iesuit expounding these words Matt. 16.18 The gates of Hell shall not prevail against her sayes quorum verborum sensus non mihi videtur esse quem omnes praeter Hilarium quos legisse me memini Authores putant And on these words Matth. 11.11 He that is least in the kingdome of Heaven is greater then Iohn the Baptist After he had brought many expositions of Ancients at length concludes Libere fatebor in nulla prorsus earum meum qualecunque ingenium acquiescere Melchior Canus in lib. 7. loc com cap. 1. num 3. affirmes that though all the Fathers with one mouth conclude the Virgine Mary to be guiltie of Original sinne yet that is an argument of little weight and that the contrarie is piously defended in the Church Heare his own words Sancti omnes qui in ejus rei mentionem incidere uno ore asseverarunt Beatam Virginem in peccato Originali conceptam cum nullus sanctorum contravenerit infirmum tamen ex omnium authoritate argumentum ducitur quin potius contraria sententia probabiliter pie in Ecclesia defenditur You may see multitudes of more instances of your Romanists contemning and condemning of Fathers in Dallaus de usu Patrum lib. 2. cap. 6. and in Doctor Iames his Treatise of the corruption of Scripture Councill and Fathers by the Prelats Pastors and Pillars of the Church of Rome Part. 4. I shall onely now adde two more out of learned Dallaeus The One is of your Iesuit Brisacerius who in a Disput against Collaghanus a Iansenist When the Iansenist had objected many of the authorities of Ancients the Iesuit called the authorities of Councils and Fathers Regulas mortuas quaunllum alium vigorems habent quam quem iis dat viventis ac praesentis Ecclesiae approbatie vel interpretatio That is Dead rules which have no further significancy or worth then they receive from the approbation of the present living Church that is the Pope as they know who are acquaint with your Iesuit-Dialect Yea the same Iesuit yet more ignominiously calls the Authorities of Fathers Vitulinos franos that is bridles wherewith onely brutes such as Bullocks and young Hiefers suffer themselves to be musled up The other Testimony shall be that of Cornelius Mussus Bishop of Bitonto one of the famous Prelats of your Council of Trent in epist ad Rom. cap. 14. Ego sayeth he ut ingenue fatear plus uni Summe Pontifici credorem in his quae fidei mysteria tangunt quam mille Augustinis Hieronimis Gregoriis nedicam Richardis Scotis Gulielmis Crede enim scie quod Summus Pontifex in his quae fidei sunt errare non potest quoniam authoritas determinandi quae ad fidem spectant in Pontifice residet Did ever Protestants speak so disdainfully or contemptuously of Ancient Fathers by which it may appear that you Romanists use the Fathers as Merchants doe their casting Counters which sometime stand for pounds somtime for shillings somtimes for pennies and sometime for nothing as they serve their interest But Thirdly wherein have I resiled from Calvine and other Reformers Did Calvine looke upon Fathers as persons obnoxious to error So doe I. And so did Fathers judge of themselves as Austine witnesses Epist 19. ad Hieron Hence is that of your Melchier Canus lib. 7. cap. 3. num 4. Hanc falicitatem Deus in solis divinis voluminibus inesse voluit ut in iis non esset quicquam erroris cateroquin nemo quant umvis eruditus sanctus non interdum hallucinatur non alicubi cacutit non quandoque labitur Doth Calvine or other Reformers say that the doctrine of Ancients is to be examined by the Scriptures Never said I any thing to the contrary nay I cordially subscribe to that apostolick Anathema If an Angel let be a Father shall teach any other Gospel to us let him be accursed Yet notwithstanding all this
to these ages as not to goe further After we have gotten the verdict of the First three Centuries I shall not then declyne to trace you successively through all succeeding ages to this day And I am confident upon a through discusse it will appeare that Your present Romish Faith as to all its Essentials was never the faith of the Catholick Church in anie age let be in All. And upon the conttarie neither you nor any of your Adherents shall be able to prove that our Religion differs in Its Essentials from the faith of the Catholick Church in anie age Now in such an enquiry can we fall upon a more convenient Method then to beginne at the fountain I meane at the most pure Ancient and according to Egesippus Elogie Virgin Church in the First three Centuries If our ReligioÌ„ be found conforme thereto in all Its Essentials as I am coÌ„fident it shall then sure it is conforme to the True Catholick Religion in all ages If yours be found dissonant thereto as I doubt not but it will then sure it is dissonant to the Christian Religion in all ages For there is but one faith Eph. 4.5 and one True Religion But Secondly you have the boldnesse to upbraid me with Two contradictions Only before I propose them I must minde you that neither of these pretended Contradictions are in my Ninth Paper to which you now answere So glad it seemes you have been of any thing to fill up the roome wherein you should have answered that Ninth Paper If my Former Papers were guilty of these ContrÌ„adictions were you not very obtuse who did not discover them more timely Yet let the unpartiall Reader judge of these Contradictions The first alledged contradiction is That upon the one hand I should have affirmed Religion to be a complex of many truths which are to be severally tryed as the severall pieces of gold in a purse and that I would descend to the severall particulars yea and that all points necessary to salvation were contained perspicuously in Scripture Yet when you called me to give a list of all these particular points then I disclaimed my former example of a purse and alledged that I was not obliged to descend to particulars I see now I was in no mistake when I said that you walked by that Machiavillian principle Calumniare audacter c. Resume all my Papers and see if ever I refused to descend to a tryall of any particular Controversie betwixt you and us Yea have I not all this time been pressing you to this and you dared not to peep out of your lurking holes Have I not passed through many of the Controversies in particular to which you have not adventured to make any Reply Produce the page or leafe in any of my Papers where ever I disclaimed that forementioned example Of trying the severall peices of gold by the touch stone yea or one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that once I gave you under my hand But I shall ingenuoussy tell the truth of that which you so deceitfully misrepresent and when I have done contradict me if you can I said indeed That Religion is a complen of many truths and to prove them all as matters are now stated bemint us and you Remanists were to write a body of controversies But yet that I should never decline to examine any of those with you And I have further said that all the necessarie points af Christian Religion were contained perspicuously in the Scriptures But when you in stead of comeing to a discusse of parâ—â—cular points only started that old threed bare Cavill Concerning a precise catalogue of necessarie points I shew That it was but a meer tergiversing shift in you and demonstrated by many reasons which you was never able to answere That there was no necessitie lying upon me in order to the decision of the maine controversie at present betwixt us to determine a precise Catalogue of necessarie truths You may call in for your assistance the rest of your Society and try if you can find a reall Contradiction in all this Indeed if I had promised to give you a Catalogue of points necessarie to Salvation and hereafter had refused to give it oâ— if since I declared a readiness to debate with you any point in Controversie betwixt the Reformed Churches and the Church of Rome I had declined to performe my promise you might have accused me of Inconsistencie with my self Or if haveing â—ffiâ—med that all things necessarie to Salvation are clearly contained in Scripture I had denyed any article of faith necessarie to Salvation to be contained clearly in Scripture you might have charged me with a Contradiction But you and your Associats may canvase what I have said againe and againe and try if you can find either a Contradiction or that I have declyned any thing that is necessarie for the decision of the present Controve sie Cannot all the points in Controversie betwixt the Reformed Churches and Pomanists be particularly examined without Desyning a precise catalogue of truths simplie necessarie to Salvation Have I ever said that everie one of your Romish errors is Fundamentall Or that no points of truth are clearly revealed in Scripture but only Fundamentals or such the explicite belief whereof is absolutly necessarie to Salvation Nay I tell you that on maine reason why I did and doe forebear for the time to pitch upon such a Catalogue was because I stand now to justify the Religion of PROTESTANTS against your Cavills But the Reformed Churches in their Harmony of Confessions have not so farre as I have observed determined that Precise Catalogue of necessaries So that in pirching upon such a Catalogue at the time I should leave my worke to follow a tergiversing vagrant Yea some of our Divines particularly acuâ—e Chillingworth in his booke entituled The Religion of Protestants a safe way to Salvation part 1. cap 3 § 13. Affirmes that more may be necessarie to the Salration of some then of others And therefore to call for a precise catalogue of points necessarie to the Salvation of every one were as if one should call for a Dyall to serve all Meridians or for a coat to serve the Moon in all her Changes You may likewise remember that I shew in my Sixth and Seventh Papers that Romanists are no lesse concerned to give a Catalogue of necessaries nor exposed to fewer difficulties in doing it then we and that in this matter your Authors have been often Non-plussed by PROTESTANT Divines For you have made points Necessarie which the Ancient and Catholick Church never held as Necessarie And so have separated your selves from the Catholick Church of IESUS CHRIST But to let you see that I am still ready to performe what ever I undertooke pitch you upon any point controverted betwixt the Reformed churches and You whether belonging to the Essentials or Integrals of Religion that is whether simply necessarie to Salvation or not and you shall find that I
might have been revealed and no obligation laid upon us to believe them And in this you blame me That I only proved by the Scripture-instances which I brought that there is no actuall separation betwixt all the truths contained in Scripture and the true Religion but did not prove them insenarable But if you looke againe to my Paper you will find that your inadvertencie is onely to be blamed For I did prove the absolute inseparabilitie betwixt all the truths contained in Scripture and the true Religion Which againe I thus demonstrate according to the grounds laid downe in my Last If all the truths in Scripture cannot be without an obligation to believe them in order to the obtaining of Salvation then All the truths of Scripture cannot be except they compound a Religion But the first is true therefore also the last The Sequel of the Major is clear because this is the only pretence upon which you suppose that all Scripture Truths may be and yet compound no Religion because they may be and yet no obligation be laid upon us to believe them If therefore they cannot be except an obligation be laid on us to believe them then surely they cannot be except they compound a Religion It remaines therefore only that we prove the Assumption that they all cannot be revealed without an obligation to believe them and this is cleare from the Scriptures cited in my Last Paper because this is one of the Truths in those Scriptures that we are obliged to believe these Truths And I cited purposlie these Scripturs to prove this And therfore it is impossible that all Scripture truths can be and we not be obliged to believe them For this is one Scripture truth that we are obliged to believe the Truths revealed in Holy Scripture What now I have demonstrated more prolixlie I set downe clearly enough though more succinctly in my Last Albeit it seemes you have been so taken up with your Precifive airie Notions that you have not understood the Paper which was sent to you But to prevent your further mistake in this I thinke it fit to let you know that I distinguish betwixt these two I doe indeed confesse that a Religion may be though nothing be coÌ„mitted to Writing And this was the case of the Ancient Church before Moses But this concernes not our present debate But the thing I deny is That all the truths contained in Scripture way be and yet make no Religion at all And this I hope now I have demonstrated against you both in this and in the former Paper Though your Notional precisions have made either your sight or your judgement Preseind from the Paper which you should have examined and consequently from the purpose By these hints you may consider whether you have added any strength to your insignificant Objection Concerning the sense of Scripture But because you are still harping upon this Cavil About the sense of the Scriptures It would appear that you Looke upon Scripture as so obscure as not able to be a ground for decision of controversies in Religion unless there be some infallible visible-judge I shall desire you to consider how different you are in your apprehersions as to this matter from the Ancient Church in which the decision of Controversies in Religion was committed sometime to Secular persons yea sometime to Heathens which your self will confesse not to be Infallible Have you not read that writing which passeth under the name of Vigilius Bishop of Trent in which there is a dispute betwixt Sabellius Photinus and Arius upon the one side and Athanasius on the other concerning the Trinitie and Deitie of the Lord Jesus Christ and Probus a Heathen is constituted judge to determine betwixt them not according to his own fancy but according to the proofes which they should produce from the Scriptures and after hearing of both he gives sentence for the Truth This dispute you will find set forth among Cassanders works from Page 460. and the sentence of Probus the Judge page 506. c. I doe not say that this Conference was real for the Collocutors were not contemporarie Yet the Learned and Ancient Author of this Dialogue who by some is supposed to be Pope Galosius doth clearly insinuate that the most sublime Mysteries of Christianity are so luculently revealed in Scripture that a meer Pagane may finde out the true sense of Scripture concerning them Have you nor tâ—ad in Epiphanius haeres 66. how that Archelaus an Orthodox Bishop had a dispute against the pernicious Heretick Manet in Caschara a City of Mesopotamia and how by commone consent they â—â—bâ—â—icâ—ed unto Foure Heathen Judges to Marcipus a Phil sâ—ph to Claudius a Physitian to Aegialous a Gramariare and to Clerbâ—lus a Sophister who after hearing adjudged the Victorie to Archelaus And this was no fiction but a reall deed What should I tell you how Laurentius a secular person was Arbiter in a dispute betwixt Augustine and Pascortius an Arian as appeares by Austineâ— Aepist 178 Or how Marcellinus a Tribune did preside by the appointment of Honorius the Emperour at a conference betwixt the Orthodox and the Donatists as Augustine holds forth Tom. 7. in Brevic. Collat Doe not all these make it evident that the Ancient Church did not apprehend such impossibility of finding out the true sense of Scripture without the previous decision of an Infallible visible judge How did Christ command us to Search the Scriptures John 5.39 if their sense be unsearchable Is not this on controversie in Religion whether there be a necessity of an Infallible visible judge and Propounder and who he is And who I pray you shall determine this if not the Scriptures If you have an Infallible Propounder without whose decision the sense of Scripture cannot be attained how injurious is he to the Christian World who will not put forth a clear Comment upon the Whole Scriptures for the finall decision of all Controversies Why doth he not at least give a Decision concerning these inrestine debates among your selves as betwixt your Dominicans and Jesuits c. Are you so farre deluded as not to know that this Fable of Infallibility is the cunning imposture whereby men of your imployment have laboured of a long time to cheat the World But now these of the Traditionarie way among you beginne to perceive that the World is too wise to be still cheared by that one Trick therefore they are betaking themselves to another Method but as fallacious as the former You have a Querie which you expect that I should notice You desire to know When Luther leapt out of the Church of Rome as you phrase is if there was any Church on earth with whome he had visible Communion May ye not be ashamed to move such a Question to me I having convicted you of so many Falshoods and Foolries concerning your last discourse of Luthers separation from Rome and of a Lying Prophesie which you following Bellarmine and Cachlaeus imposed
on him to none of which you have answered one word But though you snake away in the dâ—â—ke when you are Non-plussed and though your scutvie behaviour merit no Answere yet for the satisfaction of others into whose hands these Papers may fall I Answere there was a Church on Earth with which Luther had visible communion For clearing whereof By having visible communion I understand that there was a visible societie who did professe the same Religion which Luther did as to all the essentials thereof If you ask what that Church was I answere the Catholick visible Church And doe not wonder that I speak of a Catholick Church as distinct from your Roman There was a Catholick Church before there was a Church at Rome and the Church of Rome in her greatest integritie was but a part of the Catholick When therefore Luther departed from the present Apostatick Church of Rome because of her imperious usurpation upon the Catholick Church he retained Communion with the rest of the bodie who did never submit to her usurpations For when Luther did brake off from Rome there remained foure gaeat Christian Patriarchships disunited from Rome viz of Constantinople Antioch Alexandria and Ierusalem Whatsoever Christians therefore under any of these Patriarchships or in other remot Nations have not ruinated any Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion and are united to the True Catholck head of the Church the LORD IESUS CHRIST PROTESTANTS doe professe Communion with all these I doe not deny but there may be some differences betwixt us and other Churches as to some Integrals of Religion But diversitie of Integrals makes no different Religions so long as the Essentials remaine the same You may learne if you know not from Hoornbeck beside others in his Summa controversiarum lib. 11 de Graecis pag. 978. c. Edit 2. how Iosephus Patriarch of Constantinople sent Demetrius a Deacon of that Church to Wittemberg in the year 1559. to enquire into the state of the PROTESTANT Churches and how Demetrius after an half years abode at Wittemberg carried with him to the Patriarch a câ—piâ— of the Augustan Confession translated into Greek by Philip Melanchton under the name of Paulus Dâ—lscins You may also learne from the forecited Author how Hieremiaâ— another Patriarch who afterward sat in the same Chaire kept correspondence by letters with the PROTESTANT Divines at Tubing from the year 1574. for a long time thereafter And though they had there own debates about some particular points which your Stanislaus Socolovius labours invidiously to exaggerat ye both the Patriarch himself doth give GOD solemn thanks That the doctrine of the PROTESTANTS was in so many things consonant to the doctrine of the Greek Church And likewise Johannes Zygowalas a person of great account with the Patriarch in his letter which he wrote to Martine Cruzius in the year 1576. declares that it may be evident that the Greek Church and PROTESTANTS doe agree In continuis causam fides praecipue continentibus articulis or in the most important articles of the Christian faith and that in other things they may easily come to agreement and the rather as Stilling fleet in his Rational account of the PROTESTANT Religion part 2. cap. 8. § 15. relates out of the same letter from David Chytraeus de statu Eccles Orient 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That is Since neither party doth agree with the Bishop of old Rome or with the church which joines with him but both doe oppose the evill customes brought in by him Have you not heard how Cyrill Patriarch of Alexandria wrote to George Abbat Archbishop of Canterbury in the year 1616. and did commend to him a Student Metrophanes Chrysopulus to be bred in the Vniversities of England and to be farther instructed in our Religion And accordingly the said Metrophanes did avoid Romish Superstition and alwayes joine with the worship of the Church of England as is testified by Doctor Morton in his Grand imposture of the Church of Rome cap. 14. sect 3. The Letters exchanged betwixt the Patriarch and the Arch-Bishop you may find published in Ephraim Pagitts Christianography edit 3. part 3. You may read also in the forecited booke of Hoornbeck of the respect which Meletius Patriach of Contstantinople had for the PROTESTANT Churches and of his aversation of the Bishop of Rom's usurpation But above all memorable is the Confession of saith put forth by Cyrillus Lucaris Patriarch of Constantinople in the year 1631. in the name of the Greek Church exactly conforme to our Reformed Religion for which your bloody Jesuits did persecute that Holy Matyr to the death I know that this his Confession was afterward distallowed by Cyrill Berrhoeus and Parthenius two factious and bloody men who by ill means got into the same Chair whome Hoornbeck spares not to call Pseudo-Patriarchs But besides that they shortly suffered for their villanies being disgracefully as the same Author testifies ejected from their Patriarchships the Lord also stirred up another Parthenius in the same Chair to vindicat the fame and cause of Cyrillus Lucaris The aversation which the Greek Church have of you Romanists is sufficiently known to the World At the time that one Testimonie of your Prateolus in Elench haeres lib. 7. tit de Graecis pag. 202. might suffice Where he sayes of the Grecians Summum Pontificem Christi Vicarium omnesque Latinos pro excommunicatis habent that is They looke upon the Pope of Rome and all these of the Latine Church who adhere to him as persons excommunicated To wich you may joine that of Alphonsus à Castro lib. 6. de Haeres tit de Eucharistia haeres 2. Where he not only testifieth that the Greeks doe anathematize Latinos omnes all who are of your Latin Church but also that they Will not permit your Priests to consecrat on their Altars or if they doe it at any time with out their knowledge or coÌ„sent they wash their Altars before they coÌ„secrat on them as judging them polluted by your Priests Nay further Ephraim Pagit in his Christianography Part. 1. cap. 4. branches forth the agreement of the Greek Church and many other Oriental Churches with the PROTESTANT Churches in the chief heads wherein we differ from the Papists But because some Heresies destroying the Foundations of Christianity are objected to these Churches such as the Denyall of the procession of the holy Ghost from the Son to the Greek Church and Nestorianism to these under the Patriarch of Mosal and Eutychianism to many others I shall remit you to see what is particularly said for the vindication of the Greek Church by Doctor Field in his way to the Church Lib. 3. cap. 1. Where he undertakes to show both from Greek and Romish Doctors of great fame I hat the difference betwixt the Greek and Latine Church touching the procession of the holy Ghost is meerly verbal Yea and he endeavoures to clear many other Oriental and African Churches from Nestorianism
your councill of Trent and your Pope Pius the fourth in his formula fidei have declared to be necessary to Salvation If she did then you may be pleased to produce evidences hereof wherein you may perhaps finde more difficulty then you are awarre of If she did not then is your present Romish Church a new upstart and Schismatical Church of a distinct faith from the Catholick Church in all ages You may notice how Doctor Field in the Appendix to his fifth booke part 2. cap. 2. goes about to prove that the Church of Rome is not now the same that it was before Luthers appearance Things being now defined as Articles of faith necessarie to Salvation which were not so before I sincerely professe the Noveltie of your Romish Faith and the Schismaticall constitution of your Church are not the least grounds of my disatisfaction with your Religion You may desire your Masters to calculate to you the Antiquity of the Romish Canons establshing the points following as Articles of faith viz First The equality of unwriten traditions with the holy scriptures of GOD. 2. That concupiscence in the regenerat is not properly sinne 3. The desinit number of seven properly so called Sacraments neither more nor fewer 4. The Popes supreamacie above general Councils 5. Your Indulgences and Purgatorie 6. The abstraction of the Cup from the people 7. Your Transubstantiation 8. The infallibility of the Church of Rome 9. The adoration of Images 10. The Popes jurisdiction over secular Princes Not to mention more at the time I believe you will find some of these latter then Luthers appearance Others but a little before and all of them not only short of Primitive and Aprstolick antiquity but notone of them within the Verge of the Three first Centuries You may if you will take a briefe hint of the novel dates of most of these Romish Canons from Drelincourt in his PROTESTANTS Triumph Discourse 2. from page 39. to page 52. As also of sundry of your ritualls such as the Procession of the Sacrament the feast of the Sacrament your Jubilees the Canonizing of Saints nay of your present Romish Missal and how lately it was received both in the Gallican and Spanish Churches c. Is it safe to venture the eternall Salvation of Soules upon a Religion so Novel both in its Articles of Faith and Rituals You have one Trifle more which I cannot let slip Because I have required you to prove the Assumptiō of that goodly Syllogism which ye proposed in your first Paper wherein you said That the PROTESTANT Religion had no grounds to prove its conformity with the sense of Scripture and to this day you have been able to bring nothing in Confirmation of it Now therefore when Arguments fail you you would try if you could bring your self off or creat Odium to your Adversary with a popular but reallie impertinent Example You say That I have behaved my self as if one should come as sent from the Council to require the Provest of Aberdene to apprehend a person suspect of Disloyaltie but when the Provest did demand his commission he should answere that he was not bound to show his Commission but his Commission was sufficiently proven by this that there could not be produced reasons to show that he had no Commission Is this the Scholastick method which you call for in stead of Arguments to substitute popular declamatorie Scenick examples which by a person of any Acuteness may be transformed into a thousand various shapes But seeing you will have the matter managed by Examples I must Examplisie time-about Suppose therefore First that a man were reallie Commissionated by the Secret Council to require the Magistrats of such a City to apprehend a disloyal person and for this effect did produce his Commission but the Magistrates did cavil at the sense of the Commission how luculent soever in it self alleaging that they could doe nothing upon that Commission untill the sense of it were cleared and that the sense of it could not be cleared without an infallible Expounder Would not the Secret Council have just cause to be moved with indignation against these Magistrates who had so ludified their Order And is not this the very case betwixt us and you Doe not PROTESTANTS still produce the Tables wherein the Ground of our Faith is contained Viz the Holy Scriptures Doe not we tell you if all our Religion be not found luculently there we shall disclaime it Is not this your verie Cavil that the Sense of Scripture is so obscure that without an Infallible Bropounder it cannot be understood Have you not cause then to feare the indignation of the Almighty who doe thus reproach the Scriptures of GOD and goe about to subvert the faith of his people suspending it till they get Propounders of whose Infallibility they must have an Antecedent and previous assurance whereas there are none such now on Earth The Fallibity of your Popes and Councils we did before demonstrat and you like a mute Advocat had not a word to mutter for them But Secondly in the case which you propose of a man pretending a Commission and having none and requiring the Magistrats to prove that he had none therefore the Rogue is justly blameable because he refuseth to prove the Affirmative which was incumbent to him and requires the Magistrats to prove the Negative But betwixt you and us the case is quite contrary For though you framed the Assumption of your first Syllogisme in Negative Termes yet upon the matter you refused to prove the Affirmative and required us to prove the Negative For what is it for us to prove the Truth of our Religion in points controverted betwixt you and us but to prove that there i◠no Purgatorie no Transubstantiation no Proper sacrifice in the Masse that your Pope hath no supreamacie over the Catholick Church that there Are not seven Sacraments that Saincts are not to be invocated nor Images adored c. All which are meet Negatives and so are the most of the points controverted betwixt us and you Now suppose that there were no Revelation from Heaven for Purgatorie Transubstantiation the Sacrifice of the Masse the Popes supreamacie c. Will not you confess in that Case that it were not duety to believe any of them and that then it were a sufficient Argument against them there is no Divine revelation produceable for these things therefore they are not to be believed and if any would obtrude the belief of them upon others that he were bound to produce a Divine revelation for them Now we PROTESTANTS mantaine De facto this to be the Case I would therefore demand of any rational man if there be a possibility to confute us but by produceing a Ground or Divine revelation for these things Are not you then guilty of the same Absurditie with the Knave in your own Example who refuse to prove the Affirmative and require us to prove the Negative But yet further
our Reformed Divines have often offered to disput against you Romanists the controversies of Religion out of the Fathers Did I not show you this before from Juel Whitaker and Crakanthorp And how often doth learned Calvine in his Institutions confute you Romanists from Antiquity as your transubstantiation Lib. 4. cap. 17. § 14. Your Communion under one kinde Ibid. § 47. 48. 49. 50. The necessity of Auricular confession Lib. 3. cap. 4. § 7. Your Papal Indulgences Lib. 3. cap. 5. § 3. 4. The Popes supreamacie over the whole Catholick Church Lib. 4. cap. 7. § 3. 4. 5. c. Yea and not to insist in reckoning out particulars when he is treating of Councils and their authoritie Lib. 4. cap. 9. § 1. Veneror Councilia sayeth he ex animo suoque in honore apud omnes esse cupio and a little after Sicuti ad plenam doctrinae nostrae approbationem totius Papismi eversionem abunde verbo DEI instructi sumus ut nihil praeterea requirere magnopere opus sit ita si res flagitet magna ex parte quod satis sit ad utrumque vetera Concilia nobis subministrant where Judicious Calvine affirmes that out of Ancient Councils both the Religion of PROTESTANTS may be confirmed the Papal superstition confuted From all this may it not appeare how ludibriously you say that I seeme to be hatching a New Religion of my own Am I not offering to defend the received Religion of PROTESTANTS and to have the truth thereof tryed By its conformity with the faith of the Ancient Primitive Church Is the Ancient Religion a New Religion Is the Religion both of Ancients and PROTESTANTS a Religion peculiar to me Will you not blush that such foolish Non-sense should have droped from you But you have another trifling Shift Before say you That conformity with the faith of the Ancient hurch in the first three Centuries be admitted as a Test by which the truth of Religion may be discerned it ought to be proven that all the necessaries of the Christian Religion are contained in their writings which are now extant But First may it not with better reason be resorted on you that before you had rejected it from being a Test you ought first to have proven that there were some necessaries and essentials of the Christian Religion no where to be found in any of the writings of these three ages If any be wanting produce them and your evidence of their absolute necessity If you can produce no necessarie article that is wanting why decline you the tryal But the truth is you Romanists mantaine such a desperat cause that if either Scripture or Antiquity be Umpyre you must surely be condemned There is no way to get a favourable Interloquitur for you but by setting up your Infallible Propounders that is your own selves to be Supreame judges to the whole World If such a Religion be not to be suspected let the World judge But Secondly doe not you Romanists boast bigly sometimes of Universal traditions And here by the way I tel you I shall never declyne to have all the Essentials of Religion tryed by the famous rule of Vincentius Lyrinensis in Commonitorio primo contra Haereses cap. 3. Quod ubique quod semper quod ab omnibus est creditum But if any of the necessaries or essentials of Christianity are not to be found in the writings of the Three first Centuries how shall we have a Perpetual and universal tradition for these seeing the current is supposed to be broken off at the fountain for three hundred yeares thereafter Must we take the voice of your Present Church as an Oracle to tell us what was beleeved by the Church so many ages agoe though there be no record left that such a thing was ever beleeved We must examine her Credentials before we become so implicite to her in matters of Fact But Thirdly If any of the Necessaries of Christian Religion be altogether wanting in the writings of Ancients of these ages how did your Gualterius the Jesuit undertake to prove the truth of your Religion by the testimonies of the Church in all ages It is true he was most unhappie in his undertaking in so much that Chillingworth in his Defence of Doctor Potter part 1. cap. 2. § 119. affirmes that he heard an able man of your Religion say That Gualterius had not produced one pertinet testimony in the first three Centuries The like may be said of Ioannes Andreas Coppenstenius a Predicant in his Historical supplement to Bellarmine who undertakes the like but with as little successe Yet doe not such undertakings suppose that all necessary and essential truths of Religion may be found in the writings of these times Sed laterem lavo I doe but lose my travell what wonder to see a Thief declyne the Court and jurie He knowes upon tryal he must be condemned I have pressed you to come to be examined either by Scripture or Antiquity or both or to produce any other solid way of discerning a true Religion from a false but you declyne all Have I not just cause therefore to discharge finally with such a babling Lucifuga After I had signed my last Paper that known Distich dropped from my pen in a Postscript Roma diu titubans variis erroribus acta Corruct mundi desinet esse caput At this you behoved to have a fling though you scarce said any thing to the controversall points of the Paper Bot sie say you yat yis your Prophesie be not lyk your Patriarche Lutheris Prophesie who when he lept out of the Churche did brage yat with tue yeiris Preaching he wold abolische and eliminat all Poprie out of the world sa yat ester yir tua yeiris yair wold be no mor in the world nather Pop nor Cardinalis nor Monkis nor Nunnes nor Mase nor Belis c. I have set down your own words with your own spelling that the Reader may discerne what a Famous Clerke you are But here I must Querie you in a few particulars and First how call you this my Prophesie Are they not the lines of a Germane Prince Were they not sent to Pope Gregorie the ninth by Frederick the second the Emperour who felt the heavie hand of your usurping Popes as other Princes have done Secondly how cal you Luther our Patriarch We indeed honor Luther and Calvine as precious servants of GOD. But we make neither of them Pope or Patriarch or Master of Sentences Non sumus jurati in verba Magistri Our faith is pinned to no mans slieve Though you be implicit Slaves to the Pope yet we to no man Thirdly what Church I pray you doe you mean when you say that Luther did leape out of the Church Is it the Catholick or universal Church But when I pray you did the Roman Church become the Catholick a part become the whole Are not the Grecian Russian abyssine c Churches parts of the Catholick